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[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hey [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome back to another episode of Mind Movers today. I am [00:00:30] so excited and privileged to have my life coach with me. I feel like I’m a bit weird saying that, because [00:00:35] there’s definitely different thoughts that come to mind when people think of coaches. Um, [00:00:40] but this is Alex, and I’ve known Alex since I was about 19 years old, so we went to Leeds University together. [00:00:45] And he is a transformative coach and facilitator specialising [00:00:50] in self-leadership, relational dynamics and rites of passage. I [00:00:55] approached Alex because when I remember him at university, he was at the forefront [00:01:00] of nightlife. He was running events. He was the person [00:01:05] that you go to if you wanted to go to the best parties. And Alex definitely had that [00:01:10] entrepreneurship. That was admirable. But what really drew me to Alex is that I understood [00:01:15] that over the years, despite living that perfect, picture perfect life that you see online, [00:01:20] he was dealing with his own traumas and had undergone a divorce, [00:01:25] left his career completely in the hospitality business [00:01:30] and gone, had gone on to do things that were helping people and created Camp [00:01:35] Kaizen, which is an incredible space, which we’ll talk about later. And [00:01:40] also through his practice, including somatic breathwork parts work, body [00:01:45] mind integration. Alex helps his clients understand themselves, their relationships, their challenges, [00:01:50] and their beings. So for me, are having undergone a very challenging year in my own life. [00:01:55] I’d say that Alex definitely helped me overcome a lot, and that’s why I wanted to share his knowledge [00:02:00] and have a conversation with him today. So welcome, Alex.

Alex Potter: Well, it’s a pleasure to be here [00:02:05] with you both. And yeah, really looking forward to having a chat delving in.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Amazing. [00:02:10] So I like to start from the beginning. Alex, I want you to tell us a little bit [00:02:15] about your childhood and how you ended up at Leeds University, and a little bit [00:02:20] about what the early Alex life was about.

Alex Potter: Sure. Um, yeah. So I’m a [00:02:25] I’m a London boy, born and bred. I went to I was very fortunate to go to a private [00:02:30] school in London called Latimer. Um, and, um, yeah. From there, um, [00:02:35] I was excited to embark on a, on a, on a trip up [00:02:40] north to Leeds University, where a lot of our friends were going. I’d actually been told, as you’ve [00:02:45] already alluded to, that it was a a pretty good place to go and have some fun whilst getting a degree. [00:02:50] My parents were very encouraging of me to. [00:02:55] Yeah, to Yet to think different. They’re a very creative family. My dad’s [00:03:00] an artist and photographer and property developer. And my [00:03:05] mum was in design before, you know, becoming a full time mum. [00:03:10] We were, I was, I was actually a young [00:03:15] actor. So I was actually picked up at school as a, [00:03:20] as a, as a, as a budding theatre student by an agent [00:03:25] and at sort of 14, 15, 16 started, um, [00:03:30] yeah, auditioning for roles. And, and I managed in my summer holidays [00:03:35] to start filming different shows and BBC series and [00:03:40] stuff that I watch now. And I’m like, wow, that’s cringe, but [00:03:45] but beautifully fun and had this sort of belief that actually, [00:03:50] okay, this might be something I wanted to pursue. Um, I was actually though, like, it’s [00:03:55] probably worth mentioning. Actually very small at school. So I was sort of [00:04:00] everyone was growing around puberty and then I wasn’t. And [00:04:05] so I kind of went from being, you know, this kid who was hanging out with all the cool kids to suddenly being [00:04:10] new kids were coming in, and I was the small kid, and I was like, ah, what’s kind of happened [00:04:15] here? You know? Um, and so I just there was a short period of time at school [00:04:20] where it was challenging.

Alex Potter: There was a bit of bullying, got pulled out of school for a bit whilst we [00:04:25] kind of looked at that, um, with my family. And I just [00:04:30] remember then like this, this sort of like [00:04:35] very, very sort of clear message which sort of came through, [00:04:40] which was that you will never have to worry if [00:04:45] you can build and be bigger and like, create [00:04:50] for yourself. And so there was this sort of like drive in me. I remember when, [00:04:55] you know, we went to we were with our fake IDs and we were 16 years old [00:05:00] and trying to get into a nightclub, and all my friends got in and I didn’t. And I [00:05:05] remember at that point going, okay, I’ve got to find the way to get into these places. [00:05:10] And so I kind of like that was when this sort of entrepreneurial spark [00:05:15] started, whilst I was also doing a little bit of acting. So [00:05:20] the acting was this sort of imaginal place where I could [00:05:25] sort of pretend to be other people or get validation [00:05:30] from the audience or in the theatre shows. And then the [00:05:35] sort of the twinned role of starting to run guest lists meant that [00:05:40] then I was not being questioned about my my age or what I looked like because I [00:05:45] was adding value.

Alex Potter: So I started to learn quite early on how to develop [00:05:50] these different sort of, I guess. Like what? What type of [00:05:55] clothes that I needed to wear to dress myself up. Um, and that sort [00:06:00] of coincided with, you know, the years leading into university. And [00:06:05] I remember having a conversation with my parents, which, you know, I said, look, I’ve got an [00:06:10] agent. Why don’t I just continue the acting gig? I’m already starting to make money. I was already [00:06:15] starting to do some guest list stuff. And, you know, in my mind, I was like, what’s the point in going [00:06:20] to university? There’s nothing that I was particularly drawn to. Um, [00:06:25] although I had a I’ve always had a deep interest in philosophy, and I was interested in, [00:06:30] in art naturally, because of my parents. Um, and then I was kind of, [00:06:35] like, drawn to the idea that it was very interesting to view the world through the lens [00:06:40] of art. Like through creative expression. So we had this discussion where I [00:06:45] think if I’d like really sort of, um, you know, Really [00:06:50] said. Look, acting is the be all, end all. This is what I want to do for life. [00:06:55] Um, I’m sure they would have encouraged me to do that. But instead they said, why don’t you go to university, spend [00:07:00] three years there, work out what you want to do, come down for your auditions. [00:07:05] Um, and, you know, go and meet people and have fun. So [00:07:10] that was the that was that was probably where we first met.

Rhona Eskander: So why [00:07:15] did the acting stop eventually? Because obviously, I think when I met you in Leeds, you weren’t acting anymore, were you? No. [00:07:20]

Alex Potter: So I was the first day I arrived at university, I bumped into [00:07:25] one of my best friend’s older brother. So, uh, best friend’s older brother’s [00:07:30] friends, who was, uh, a club promoter and had this this [00:07:35] night or these nights that they were running. And he walked into our halls of [00:07:40] residence and said he’d pay me and my best friend £1 for every person [00:07:45] that we could, you know, gather from our halls to come to his night [00:07:50] that was happening that night. And I think, you know, our guest list was called the Alex and Joe Guest [00:07:55] list or something like that. Like, very, very descriptive. Yeah. And [00:08:00] that, that kind of kicked it off. I remember that sort of freshers week that was when [00:08:05] we, you know, started drawing around 100 people a night [00:08:10] into different, different experiences and different nights that people wanted to go to. And [00:08:15] I very quickly started making, you know, pretty good money for someone [00:08:20] at university on us with a student loan and thought, well, actually [00:08:25] travelling down back down to London for my auditions can wait. I’ll, um, [00:08:30] I’ll just continue doing this. And, you know, that opened up the door for me after the first [00:08:35] year to decide that actually, I’d like to run my own nights. [00:08:40] So that was kind of the start of my first business when we were sort of 19 or 20 [00:08:45] years old and whatever. I thought a business was not really, really realising.

Rhona Eskander: No. I [00:08:50] remember like, you know, I’d always looked up for my own reasons. Entrepreneurship [00:08:55] was something that had always interested me. And I remember thinking specifically that you and the [00:09:00] people that are running these nights were displaying that, and there was always some kind of interest to me. [00:09:05] Do you think, though, I mean, nightlife is an interesting one because I think when people hear that [00:09:10] there’s always negative connotations linked with it, you know, drugs, alcohol, [00:09:15] you know, decadence, you know, there’s all these things that come to mind when you think [00:09:20] of that. Do you think I mean, initially, obviously what I hear is, is that your childhood and your experiences [00:09:25] of bullying and not feeling big enough, in a way wanted you to take up [00:09:30] space in another way. So you did that in different ways to feel validated and worthy, and that’s why you went [00:09:35] into that. But do you think that there was negativity? Do you think that it also did something [00:09:40] to your ego or your soul? In a way, if you look back or not so much?

Alex Potter: I think it’s [00:09:45] a good question, And I think there’s sort of multiple lenses that we could view [00:09:50] that. One is through the lens of the perception of who you think [00:09:55] you need to be in order to be validated or loved or receive love or. And so [00:10:00] when we find, um, coping mechanisms or short term solutions [00:10:05] or where that, you know, we can receive that and sort of [00:10:10] we tend to then, you know, you know, believe [00:10:15] that that might be the path to follow. So I think from one of the things that [00:10:20] that it offered me was I was always I was always drawn to wanting [00:10:25] to help people. And like, I liked bringing people together to have a [00:10:30] good time. Like, it was like I loved looking out over the club and seeing [00:10:35] people dancing and smiling and and having fun like that really lit me [00:10:40] up and that then that kind of grew the desire to create more, um, [00:10:45] interesting or experiences that integrated sound and light in different ways. [00:10:50] I think there was also like an incredible shadow that kind [00:10:55] of emerged as a result of starting to believe that you [00:11:00] were that I was in some way important or, um, [00:11:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Was going to say, I bet you were popular.

Rhona Eskander: He was very popular. I was invited to everything.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:11:10] big was the biggest party? How many people?

Alex Potter: A couple of thousand. Oh, really? Yeah. So. But [00:11:15] at the.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you were popular.

Rhona Eskander: Well, he was really popular. I’m going to go on to what Alex did in London. [00:11:20] You’ll know some of the things he did in London, but we’ll go on to that. Go on.

Alex Potter: So I think just just to [00:11:25] it, you know, it was running guest lists. Right. So I think one of the things that that, that [00:11:30] you, that you learn is a couple of things that are really beneficial. One is that you get really good at [00:11:35] hearing. No. Right. So no, I don’t want to come to that. No. You know, like we were going around [00:11:40] and, you know, flyering and speaking to people and, you know, asking everybody [00:11:45] to come along and you’d be like, hey, how are you doing? So you start to learn how to communicate. You [00:11:50] know what? What how does someone relate? You get learn a lot of those sort of early skills around how you [00:11:55] communicate, um, and how you invite people somewhere and whether or not someone likes [00:12:00] what you’re saying. So you become quite chameleon oriented in a sense that you [00:12:05] become skilled at, um, your delivery. And I think [00:12:10] that’s something that served me well. And also just sort of the immediate feedback loops [00:12:15] of this, this is something that lands. This is something that doesn’t these were this is how you construct [00:12:20] an evening. This is what good looks like. This is what hospitality [00:12:25] really means. And but on the flip side, yeah, you’re dancing in [00:12:30] an industry that is fraught with excess drink, drugs. Um, [00:12:35] and, and is, you know, it to [00:12:40] a certain degree, Agree it can. For those [00:12:45] who you know you can be, it can be a form of escapism. And that [00:12:50] can lead, of course, to more destructive behavioural habits, especially if you’re trying to study [00:12:55] and get a degree. Right. Um, I was very, always very focussed [00:13:00] on, on, on doing everything I did really well. Like that was like what [00:13:05] was driven into me was like by my by my parents and my dad. Um, from a young age was like, [00:13:10] if I was going to do one thing, do it once properly, not twice, like, badly or half [00:13:15] heartedly.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s really nice. You know, we have this discussion all the time. We sit with [00:13:20] dentists and our parents told us to become dentists and the generations, [00:13:25] you know, you have the.

Rhona Eskander: The immigrant.

Payman Langroudi: Generation, immigrant generation and all that. I think it’s really [00:13:30] nice that that wasn’t even, you know, that sort of thing wasn’t even on your [00:13:35] radar, wasn’t, you know, preached on you by your parents and, and and [00:13:40] yet you can turn anything into a successful business. Yeah. You know, it’s a funny thing [00:13:45] because entrepreneurship and healthcare don’t really mix naturally.

Rhona Eskander: But I think [00:13:50] now that’s changed with the new generation because naturally it leads. I mean, Alex will tell you, I don’t think he can [00:13:55] name one other person that he was friends with that was a dentist or a doctor. I purposefully [00:14:00] liked to hang out with people that were in the creatives and like you said, you know, you loved philosophy. [00:14:05] So did I. For A-level, I did English, philosophy, chemistry and biology. That’s quite [00:14:10] rare to do such different subjects. And so when I chose to live with the [00:14:15] people that I did, who, you know, good friends with and no, none of them did the sciences or the [00:14:20] medicines. I was naturally very drawn. And I think it was that entrepreneurship. And that’s why I was [00:14:25] so desperate to marry that creativity and entrepreneurship with dentistry. And that’s why [00:14:30] I was one of the first people to take to social media.

Payman Langroudi: The what I’m saying is that that immigrant [00:14:35] mentality that says, you’re my parents. We had a revolution in Iran. We came here. [00:14:40] My parents become a professional. That’s the safest way. Same. Not the safest [00:14:45] way of helping the world. That’s the safest way of helping yourself. Yeah. Have a business [00:14:50] and you know you can. You’ll feed your family if you’re a professional. So behind it wasn’t [00:14:55] healthcare. And helping behind it was financial stability, 100%. Now, my [00:15:00] my basic point is that like entrepreneurship and healthcare don’t mix happily. [00:15:05] They don’t. Yeah they don’t. I don’t want my surgeon to be thinking, how much money can I make [00:15:10] out of this guy? Yeah, I don’t want that. But entrepreneurship and events, [00:15:15] nightlife, all the things that that Alex has done do mix perfectly. And yet [00:15:20] the immigrant doesn’t ever say to their kid what Alex’s parents said to to him, [00:15:25] like, go do something creative and do it really well. Yeah. You know, it’s just [00:15:30] one step too far for an immigrant to go to because of the risk of what? Not being a professional is going [00:15:35] to do to you, but.

Rhona Eskander: You actually have I have to just interject because my endodontist. [00:15:40] So that’s like a specialist within the within the field of dentistry. He used [00:15:45] to run the nights at like Movida and Tantra and stuff like that and do the list. And he used to DJ [00:15:50] as well with Jamie Jones and things, but he was still an endodontist, i.e. he was still a [00:15:55] specialist dentist, and it was almost like he was living these double lives and he would have never quit dentistry, [00:16:00] to become a full time DJ or to become a full time events person. And it’s almost [00:16:05] like, you know, even if you are drawn like, I loved acting like you said. So this year I was like, oh, I want to go look at [00:16:10] doing improv. But it was never an option in my family to leave dentistry, [00:16:15] to do acting or to. And that’s why within my field, I’m doing podcasting. [00:16:20] I do TV because that’s the way I can express myself within my field. Yeah, safely. [00:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’d be super cool, though, if your kid could write a screenplay, you know, like instead of [00:16:30] becoming a orthopaedic surgeon, you know, I mean, I think.

Rhona Eskander: It’s pretty cool to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I’m just saying, I think. [00:16:35]

Alex Potter: It sounds like a really interesting sort of like segue. Like what one is what I heard you [00:16:40] saying, which was more related to what is the sponsoring seed of a parent’s, [00:16:45] um, desire for their child? Yeah. Um, so what I’m hearing from you, [00:16:50] from an immigration perspective is that, you know, security and safety is of [00:16:55] utmost paramount, given that that was something that was taken away, you know, or [00:17:00] was happened. And it’s, you know, with my my wife Sarah, you know, she also moved from former [00:17:05] Yugoslavia when she was two years old to Canada. So I’m very familiar about [00:17:10] the, the, the what, what it means to have a safe and secure job that there [00:17:15] can be a career for a long time, that you can then be a provider for. And I think, [00:17:20] you know, it’s really interesting when we start to look at the intergenerational seeds [00:17:25] that have been planted in each of us as it relates to our attachment [00:17:30] styles and how we think about risk or, and let’s let’s also [00:17:35] think about risk as like entrepreneurship. Yeah. Um, and from [00:17:40] the other side is what I hear you talking a little bit about, which is this sort of following of your curiosity, [00:17:45] the opportunity to bridge your industry and entrepreneurship [00:17:50] and move the move the, um, move the business in [00:17:55] a way onto, um, onto social media and to have more influence and [00:18:00] to create more awareness around the people that are actually within the [00:18:05] industry rather than just this is a service and we don’t know anyone apart from they’re [00:18:10] in white gloves and, you know, behind, behind the glasses.

Payman Langroudi: Um, one thing.

Rhona Eskander: One [00:18:15] thing that I want to say, I think that’s going to be super helpful is the majority of dentists and doctors [00:18:20] are from immigrant families. And we joke and we say the minority is like white people. You have like, I probably [00:18:25] had like four white dentists in my year. Like literally everyone else was Middle Eastern Asian. Um, [00:18:30] you know, from backgrounds where they felt sort of pressured by their family, I think to a certain degree [00:18:35] there’s not a rebellious streak, but I think the new generation and maybe you’re seeing this with your own kids, [00:18:40] want to do things their own way, and that’s why you’re even seeing doctors and dentists take to TikTok and [00:18:45] Instagram in a way that was never done before, and perhaps pursue more of a financial [00:18:50] means through those channels. You know, I meet some younger dentists and like I make more from my partnerships [00:18:55] on TikTok than I do in practice, you know, and I think, you know, that is changing slightly. [00:19:00] But I think what’s interesting is that perhaps they don’t know, like you said, where it comes from. [00:19:05] You know, where their parents like, you have to go down this road. And one of the [00:19:10] perhaps good things about social media is that we can say, well, actually being authentically [00:19:15] yourself isn’t too much of a problem, and you can build a life and a career from that, [00:19:20] too. But I might be wrong because you hang out with the younger dentists more than me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:19:25] look, social media is just a reality that’s going to media is a reality, right? Media is now [00:19:30] it’s got democratised that everyone has a voice, and that’s a nice thing, you know? There’s nothing [00:19:35] to say, but there’s plenty of business in healthcare, right? I mean, I had Anushka [00:19:40] sitting there, 43 practices, you know, there’s there’s some of the biggest [00:19:45] companies in the world are healthcare companies, drug companies. There’s plenty of business in healthcare. [00:19:50] Um, it just it just makes me sad that that that that advice. I mean, the [00:19:55] question you asked, what.

Rhona Eskander: Makes you sad.

Payman Langroudi: What the advice that all immigrants give are these simple three things that your kids [00:20:00] are allowed to do just for the safety thing, but also the question, the question that that [00:20:05] you were asking, um, Alex, about, you know, what is it [00:20:10] that about him that made him be that guy and the risks of night [00:20:15] life and and and the bad connotations of night life businesses. You know, there’s bad connotations [00:20:20] in every damn business. Yeah. If you want to. Look, I think.

Rhona Eskander: Night life even more so because [00:20:25] it is.

Payman Langroudi: In every business, if you want, if you choose to look at the the negative side of it, there are [00:20:30] There are negative things going on in all sorts of areas.

Alex Potter: Right? I think I can I can add to the [00:20:35] to this, to this, this inquiry from, from the sense that what [00:20:40] one piece that I think is really interesting is, um, [00:20:45] the, the you know, when I talked about the sponsoring seed that is kind of like landed [00:20:50] within the individual, um, that blossoms as we, as we grow, right, as are related [00:20:55] to, you know, what you think you should or need or must do based on what your parents [00:21:00] want for you and that, that, that, that, that, that seed, you know, and we’ve talked about [00:21:05] it as this sort of pebble that that’s the first pebble in the pond that [00:21:10] kind of drops, which is this sort of understanding that this sort of misunderstanding [00:21:15] of a of a young child, that I will behave the way I think you want me to [00:21:20] in order that you love me. And then that ripples out into schooling. I will behave the way [00:21:25] you think. I think you want me to in order to be a good boy at [00:21:30] school or a good girl at school. I will behave the way you think. I think you want me to. [00:21:35] In my relationships, in my work and this sort of pursuit [00:21:40] of, um. You mentioned authentic self, you know, or true self or [00:21:45] unique self, um, can sometimes be, um, convoluted [00:21:50] with the, um, belief structure that you’ve inherited [00:21:55] from your family about what it means to be, um, [00:22:00] you know, successful in their eyes.

Alex Potter: And we live in a society that [00:22:05] has, um, and certainly in the West has prioritised [00:22:10] the metric of success being a monetary value at the very top. [00:22:15] Right. That is the measure of whether or not you meet the standards [00:22:20] of our Western society comes by normally this scarce commodity of [00:22:25] money, however much or Whatever or influence or how much productivity [00:22:30] productivity you can offer. Now, if we’re placing that at the top of our personal [00:22:35] pyramid, and this is what kind of I think maybe you were starting to allude to was [00:22:40] no amount of and it was as we as I left university and [00:22:45] moved into, you know, a career in hospitality and started working in marketing [00:22:50] for nightclubs and restaurants and hotels. And I rose pretty quickly [00:22:55] into Morgans Hotel Group and was running nightclubs like Mahiki before that and [00:23:00] then bungalow eight and. Well, that’s that’s what I started. But so at 25 years [00:23:05] old, um, I decided with the young hubris of a of a man who’s obviously, [00:23:10] you know, done a huge amount of operational learnings. Of course, I haven’t, [00:23:15] um, in, in hospitality, decided to start my own place. And that place was, um, with [00:23:20] three other friends called Ping in Earls Court, which was this ping pong.

Rhona Eskander: Do you remember it?

Payman Langroudi: Pizza, I think. I [00:23:25] can’t believe I missed it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, it was really like.

Payman Langroudi: Big because bounce I went to a lot. Yeah. [00:23:30]

Alex Potter: Open at the same time as bounce. We were the West London and I basically pulled all of [00:23:35] my team at the time from, you know, sorry, Morgans Hotel Group, but like bungalow eight and [00:23:40] we had these incredible, you know, mixologists and barman. We had incredible pizza chefs and [00:23:45] this 7000 square foot place with DJs every night. And we had a barber in there so you could come [00:23:50] and get your hair cut. I mean, it was just this experiential thing. And I remember creating [00:23:55] that for the love of creating. That was the thing that got me. And I was so [00:24:00] thrilled with, with, with what we were doing. And we, you know, we had [00:24:05] these cool, you know, uh, bask baseball jackets that all the [00:24:10] team would wear and the merch and, and and that was when it started [00:24:15] to pop for us. And we also developed something at the time called Love Brunch, which was this daytime [00:24:20] party event that we ran from 12 till six.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I remember that.

Alex Potter: Um, which [00:24:25] then we grew into, you know, a nine year business that I ran with a couple of other partners. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: Are you saying. Are you saying that you were telling yourself a story about growth and and domination [00:24:35] that was unhealthy in some way as well?

Alex Potter: At some. Well, what happened to me is after ten [00:24:40] years of doing or 8 or 9 years of doing this, when we built our holding company called [00:24:45] GLP hospitality, where we had by by at its peak, 14 different restaurants [00:24:50] and bars, a place called Rum Kitchen.

Rhona Eskander: Do you remember Rum Kitchen? Yeah. It was [00:24:55] like the place to be in in Notting Hill. Like, I remember it was like everyone wanted to be at Rum [00:25:00] Kitchen.

Alex Potter: And it was fun. And we had people. We had celebrities rolling through. David Beckham did his Christmas [00:25:05] party. We had Prince Harry there, you know, Harry styles, all those guys used to come and you [00:25:10] know, at that time, you know, that would drive more awareness for the business. The business [00:25:15] would get busier. We’d open a second one and then a third one, and then we took on private equity. [00:25:20] And those guys wanted us to grow quickly, and we were [00:25:25] then incubated the business island pokey that I used to know. The founder was a family [00:25:30] friend and he came and said, look, come and try this bowl of pokey in our [00:25:35] office in Soho. I said, you know, we said, this is amazing. Let’s package this up. We turned it [00:25:40] from, I think it was called the Hawaiian Fiasco at the time. And then we rebranded it because we had an in-house [00:25:45] design studio. We rebuilt it into something called Island. Pokey raised the capital [00:25:50] from a company called White Rabbit, who were an investment firm, and then set out to to [00:25:55] grow that. And by the time that I exited that, we were at eight sites. And now I think there are [00:26:00] 30. Um, and we also opened a place called Foley’s, and Foley’s was [00:26:05] we won a michelin bib for and then a place called Passo.

Alex Potter: Now, I think to bring all this back to the original [00:26:10] question was, I remember walking into the opening of Passo [00:26:15] and feeling like an imposter in my own business, and I had [00:26:20] pegged so much at this opening that it was going to make me feel whole. And [00:26:25] for whatever reason or not. And I can even feel like the emotions coming. Um, [00:26:30] that was when I really, like, had to look at myself in the mirror and going, like, you’re [00:26:35] trying to live someone else’s life. And what [00:26:40] I recognised then was that I [00:26:45] that nothing was ever going to be enough when I was looking [00:26:50] externally, outside of myself to fill the perceived [00:26:55] the void that was that, that I felt within. And it didn’t matter how much [00:27:00] money we made or whether or not we had money or didn’t have money. It didn’t [00:27:05] matter. You know how many restaurants we had or or how many reviews [00:27:10] that came in? Well, I got to a point where I basically [00:27:15] burnt out because we, we were running a company that 250, you [00:27:20] know, employees. And at the same time, my relationship with with my with my [00:27:25] ex, you know, was was we were, you know, we were having some [00:27:30] challenging times and as, as new newlyweds, um, and she [00:27:35] just, you know, was starting her own healing journey from a more, you know.

Alex Potter: A more challenging [00:27:40] childhood experience and experiences. And I remember [00:27:45] this moment walking my dog around the block, like, and just walking [00:27:50] the dog around and around the block, just going, I my life has to be mean [00:27:55] for more than this. There, there has to be more to my life than feeling the [00:28:00] way that I do at the moment, and that I think that’s what’s [00:28:05] part of this was coming. Because in a sense of the of of the pain that I was [00:28:10] feeling within and the, the, the, the speed at which we were building [00:28:15] and growing and running. And I, you know, when you sometimes look back at back at Whatsapps and you find conversations [00:28:20] that you’re having from eight years ago. And I was just looking at like, [00:28:25] how many, you know, moving parts we had and different investors and different, [00:28:30] you know, ventures. And we had, you know, a new pipeline of ten new businesses that were [00:28:35] going. But we were also, you know, we had companies that were, you know, Peter was paying Paul. And [00:28:40] so, you know, management structure was, you know, a little becoming a little bit shaky as we’d [00:28:45] started to grow because, you know, we’re 31 years old and, you know, we hadn’t we didn’t have [00:28:50] the support and we didn’t know how to ask for help.

Alex Potter: That’s like the real crutch [00:28:55] here was mental health in the way that we’re having this conversation now, wasn’t there? Wasn’t there [00:29:00] like I started seeking out secret seminars when I was 28 and started going [00:29:05] to different spiritual talks to, you know, make sense of what was going [00:29:10] on and how could I make sense of my relationship, and also like, why am I so triggered by this [00:29:15] person? Or, you know, why is my body responding in a certain way? And I just [00:29:20] remember the more destructive pathways there are to find ways [00:29:25] to self-soothe self soothe. Right. So that would be drink or um, or recreational drugs [00:29:30] or partying. So yeah, if you’ve got 14 sites and you’ve got you can drink and eat [00:29:35] for free in every one of those. It is super easy to distract yourself. Um, [00:29:40] but whatever happens, you still wake. I would still wake up with a pit in my stomach [00:29:45] that then I would busy myself to relieve. And after a while, that [00:29:50] got to a point where there was this sort of very clear moment where [00:29:55] I recognised that everything had to change.

Rhona Eskander: Did it happen? I mean, [00:30:00] obviously, we’ve talked about this at length, and this is one of the big reasons why I chose you as a coach. You know, [00:30:05] I said you walked the walk. So essentially on the outside you had everything, you know, the perfect [00:30:10] relationship, the perfect partner, the perfect business, etc., and everything was [00:30:15] building up. But I remember you telling me that one day you walked in. You just [00:30:20] don’t want to say. Threw it away. But you were like, something’s to change. And it was almost like in a day, everything [00:30:25] changed. So tell us about that.

Alex Potter: Yeah, it was weird. I just. And that just popped a memory where, [00:30:30] you know, I think it was the same same, same same sort of like month or two where, [00:30:35] um, you know, me and my partner, business partner, Johnny were, you know, we got [00:30:40] the sort of like, 1000 most influential people in London next to Nick Jones and all this, you [00:30:45] know, all these sort of heroes of ours. And I [00:30:50] just remember, um, yeah, [00:30:55] this, sort of this, this, this feeling that. This [00:31:00] was like a really important [00:31:05] moment for me to like everything that I thought that I knew and everything [00:31:10] that I thought would make me happy. And I just remember having this, like, slight burning question [00:31:15] that landed with me. It was like, what is success? What does it mean to feel [00:31:20] fulfilled? And the moment I asked that question, I went to an [00:31:25] like a friend’s experience or event that night, and I got introduced to a [00:31:30] friend who was just starting to date, um, [00:31:35] this chap called Stuart Salmon, who owns a company called pod. Now, he had just been sort of trained as a as a chef, teacher, [00:31:40] breath coach. Um, and, and he said, hey, I’m hosting, hosting this [00:31:45] event. Um, come along. It’s, you know, next week. And I remember [00:31:50] going to this experience and, and lying [00:31:55] down in this beautiful yoga studio, and there were yoga mats [00:32:00] and everything was laid out and beautiful music, and we started breathing. And, you know, I’d never even heard [00:32:05] about breathwork at that point. I’d tried meditation before. It never landed. I always thought [00:32:10] I was doing it wrong. You know, you’re sat there waiting to be enlightened, you know, [00:32:15] and just hoping that something was going to happen.

Alex Potter: I just think that’s the way that it’s the instruction has been given. [00:32:20] It hasn’t been necessarily landed in the West. Um, and I [00:32:25] went to this experience and I started breathing, and I just remember myself leaving my body. And [00:32:30] I left my body, and I entered this space where I was able to see [00:32:35] my life from, like, this bird’s eye view. And it was just so clear to me in that moment [00:32:40] that I was able to see my partners like life, her like, and her as a child [00:32:45] and recognise that you know, everything that like that, that we [00:32:50] were holding in resentment and judgement against each other as we were sort of navigating now, a divorce was [00:32:55] like just a huge amount of like love and compassion [00:33:00] and forgiveness and recognition that, wow, like, [00:33:05] you know, I’m we’re not tuned to the same level. I can’t hear what she’s [00:33:10] saying and she can’t hear what I’m saying. And that’s okay. And [00:33:15] we can we can work. We can work through that from that place. And [00:33:20] and at the same time, I was sort of had this sort of like clear moment [00:33:25] where I, you know, could see my life in, in, in [00:33:30] a different, in a different way where I looked happy and was, you know, just kind [00:33:35] of free and didn’t have the, the, the expectations or the [00:33:40] pressure. I felt like the man who was holding Atlas for like the majority of my [00:33:45] early 20s and the majority of my 20s and early 30s [00:33:50] and, and I remember speaking to, to Stu after and he said, look, there’s this, there’s this. [00:33:55] You should go and speak to my friend. He’s a coach. And I said, okay, cool. A coach sounds great.

Rhona Eskander: At [00:34:00] this point. Were you still working for the businesses or have you quit?

Alex Potter: No. So I was I was still in the business [00:34:05] and I was navigating what I was going to do. Um, [00:34:10] but we were just starting. I was just starting to kind of, like, [00:34:15] have that question with my partners about stepping down at a point when. Yeah, on [00:34:20] on the surface, we were absolutely booming, like everything was. [00:34:25] If we’d continued in that vein, you know, who knows what, you know, where [00:34:30] it could have.

Rhona Eskander: How did they feel about you presenting stepping [00:34:35] down?

Alex Potter: It was hard. Um, there was also there was also a couple of things, like the way [00:34:40] that our corporate structure was set up. You know, I was able to, um, [00:34:45] you know, I’d released the operational control anyway at that point from from [00:34:50] Rum Kitchen. So we had brought in a managing director. So all these kind of things [00:34:55] that we were kind of doing enabled me to make this move a little easier. Island pokey [00:35:00] was pretty set up then. James was running it. Um, an operational team were moving through, [00:35:05] and after the two years, they left our sort of incubator office. Um, [00:35:10] and we had Folies and Paso and, you know, the events [00:35:15] business and our, and our sort of marketing agency and graphic design agency. [00:35:20] I remember speaking with Johnny at the time, you know, and this was like I was separating from [00:35:25] him, who I’d worked with for ten years and separating from my wife in the same basically [00:35:30] the week. Um, and I just said, I can’t I can’t do this anymore. I just can’t. I, [00:35:35] I’m and I felt broken and I was just like, I can’t continue [00:35:40] operating in this way because it’s going to kill me. And that’s that’s [00:35:45] generally how I felt.

Payman Langroudi: But when you look back on that now, do you see [00:35:50] that as I mean, I’m sure it’s a combination of things you see it as. But do you see that as [00:35:55] you were going down the wrong line, or do you just see that as [00:36:00] your execution was shortsighted? You weren’t you weren’t looking after yourself as you [00:36:05] you could you could know, I’ve taken maybe a day off a week and [00:36:10] and solved that problem. Or do you actually think you were going down an incorrect path? [00:36:15]

Alex Potter: It wasn’t an incorrect path, right? It was that I was I had completed what [00:36:20] I had set out to achieve. Like, you know, I talked.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t just burnout, mental [00:36:25] mental pressure, burnout. It was it was just.

Alex Potter: I knew it was enough. I knew I knew that I knew [00:36:30] nothing more in this external world of of [00:36:35] of of creating for, um, for the, [00:36:40] you know, for success, for external validation, for financial Renumeration [00:36:45] was going to hold me. I knew at that time it was [00:36:50] it was this, this like inner soul calling back to alignment. And I was [00:36:55] and I and I started working with a coach and he just I remember this incredible question because it changed [00:37:00] my life. He said, you know, imagine yourself looking [00:37:05] back one year from now. So what are we, the I can’t [00:37:10] remember what the date is. Call it the 12th of December. 12th of December, whatever day this comes out, 12th of [00:37:15] December. Looking back one year from now. So 2012 December 2025. Looking [00:37:20] back one year from now, what must have happened for you to feel [00:37:25] thrilled at your progress? And it was. I just sat with [00:37:30] it and I remember that the the answers just came so clearly. [00:37:35] And I was like, it was so clear to me that relieving myself of [00:37:40] the responsibilities of running this company, the, the the pressure [00:37:45] of 365 days worth of revenue, stats rolling in every [00:37:50] night like that was what I before I went to bed. I’d wait for every single, every [00:37:55] single restaurant or bar or, you know, thing to come in red or black. Are we up or down [00:38:00] on last year?

Rhona Eskander: We have that in dentistry. Yeah for sure, for sure.

Alex Potter: That is how that is how that black [00:38:05] eyed sleep well. Red eyed sleep terribly. I would wake up in the morning, and the first thing that would be coming through would be [00:38:10] our reviews across. So we’d have a thing that would scrape all of our reviews from all of our restaurants, [00:38:15] from all the social media, everything like this. It would categorise them. You know, it didn’t matter if there was [00:38:20] 95 positive reviews, I would beeline in onto the negative [00:38:25] one and that would be where I’d start my day. I’d be like, what happened? How did this happen? And so I just [00:38:30] feel that I was I’d got to this point where the [00:38:35] the way I was approaching life, you know, was no longer [00:38:40] sustainable. That’s that’s what was happening. And I started working with a coach, [00:38:45] and the coach helped me breathe life into my, you [00:38:50] know, choices. And at that moment, I was able I loved the coaching [00:38:55] process so much that I, that I was like, I, I have to train in this. [00:39:00] Um, I don’t know why, but I just know that this [00:39:05] these lines of questions, the opportunity that someone gives you non-judgmentally [00:39:10] non prescriptively to self generate the answers from within was [00:39:15] mind blowing to me. And so [00:39:20] I trained that that started this journey of, of training and as a, as [00:39:25] a transformational coach. Um, and.

Rhona Eskander: So at this point you were not earning anything or did you, were [00:39:30] you paid out by your companies?

Alex Potter: No, I was I at that point, it was a this was moving out [00:39:35] and I had a little bit I was negotiating an exit, but I was also getting divorced. So I was [00:39:40] at this point where I was like, I scrambled like what money we had available. And I invested [00:39:45] in in the coaching I had, you know, I had no idea whether or not it would [00:39:50] really necessarily pay, pay out or how I. But I did have this belief that I [00:39:55] know that there are more people out there like me that I can offer this service [00:40:00] to.

Payman Langroudi: But the company not have a valuation.

Alex Potter: That the company.

Payman Langroudi: Had that you could exit.

Alex Potter: With. [00:40:05] Yeah. Company had a valuation and that. But Room kitchen at the time had [00:40:10] just taken on investment and we’d bought out other partners. So [00:40:15] I was already it was like, you’re waiting until whatever happens. So, [00:40:20] you know, we we kind of, you know, crossed our fingers and hope that would come good. We [00:40:25] were in a negotiation or I was in a negotiation to exit Island. And that took [00:40:30] about a year from starting that to, to to to doing that. [00:40:35] Um, and then Foley’s and and Paso at the time were [00:40:40] early businesses. So there was no, you know, you.

Payman Langroudi: Invested everything.

Alex Potter: You had [00:40:45] everything reinvested. So what I did is I gave my shares to my business partner. I said, look, I can’t do this. Have my [00:40:50] shares in those two restaurants, you know, you crack on. Um, and, [00:40:55] and, you know, that was just before Covid. So that’s a whole nother story about where we Where we [00:41:00] can go. Um, and and then I started, and I, and I moved.

Rhona Eskander: In with your parents. [00:41:05]

Alex Potter: I moved back in with my parents for for nine months. And it was this sort of, like, real, like coming [00:41:10] home. It was this real turning away. I’d also had a pretty, you know, big wedding, [00:41:15] you know, a year before that that, you know, tons of [00:41:20] friends come. And I just remember this moment of, of of everything changing. And I turned [00:41:25] back around from looking out and started looking in and [00:41:30] in training as a coach. I then was like, I want to train in more stuff. So [00:41:35] I was like, okay, breathwork, help me, I’m going to train as a as a breath worker. And I [00:41:40] pursued performance breathing and followed a guy called Laird Hamilton, who’s a big surfer and [00:41:45] trained in his breath work training, um, before breathwork, then helped me [00:41:50] unlock meditation. And so over the next 7 or 8 years, every [00:41:55] year I’ve added something that has been Being curious or help me to [00:42:00] better understand myself, better understand my relationships, better understand my, um, [00:42:05] my reason for being and how I can be of service, and [00:42:10] started to pull together different modalities, [00:42:15] interdisciplinary approaches to um, to, [00:42:20] you know, through my own exploration of self and that kind [00:42:25] of bosomed out into also studying a lot of ancient wisdom and indigenous [00:42:30] wisdom and working with plant medicine. Then I trained as a [00:42:35] psychedelic assisted, uh, practitioner for a year and worked with a lot of different [00:42:40] plant medicines to better understand how our connection can [00:42:45] reconnection to nature. Um, I have a.

Rhona Eskander: Question, though. Did you go through any [00:42:50] moments of real darkness during this time? So you turned your [00:42:55] back on the business? Your marriage came to an end. You moved back in with your parents. Or do [00:43:00] you think that somehow you. I don’t want to say distracted yourself, but you were on this [00:43:05] path where the calling was so strong that you didn’t. You didn’t feel the heaviness and [00:43:10] the pain and the tools that you were learning helped you through that period, because [00:43:15] most people would go into a dark hole for a period of time, whether you want to call that depression or, like you [00:43:20] said, you know, embark on some sort of self-soothing distraction mechanism.

Alex Potter: So [00:43:25] I think, like, I can speak to a couple of things there. Like, yeah, there was a, there was a [00:43:30] the funny enough, I think the dark time, the darkest [00:43:35] times were before I quit. That was the quitting [00:43:40] was relief, was the relief. And I think, like the [00:43:45] most important thing that we can have in this type of journey, on our own journey, is to recognise we’re [00:43:50] on a journey and that this is the life is the greatest adventure that [00:43:55] you forgot to invite yourself on. And there is a there is an opportunity [00:44:00] to be hopeful. Now how? That’s easy to say when you’re you know [00:44:05] you’re not in the dark. The basement. You know, where everything is caving in on you. What [00:44:10] became helpful for me was a daily practice. You [00:44:15] know, so how you know, I learned how to use my breath to return [00:44:20] to my own inner compass. I was, I [00:44:25] was I was very clear that in my mind that this wasn’t [00:44:30] something that I wasn’t going to give up on life like this was the this was this [00:44:35] was the threshold that I, it was calling me to cross in [00:44:40] order to, um, grow into or [00:44:45] allow, you know, or grow into or allow myself to, like, really, really express [00:44:50] myself as to who I truly am and what gifts I have to offer to [00:44:55] this world.

Payman Langroudi: What are you? What are you struggling with at the moment?

Alex Potter: I’m struggling with [00:45:00] the. I’m struggling with [00:45:05] the external worlds. [00:45:10] The way in which we’re viewing the world through the lens of social media and the 24 hour [00:45:15] news cycle, and how impactful that is [00:45:20] into so much of our so many of our selves sense of self, safety [00:45:25] and hope. I think sorry.

Rhona Eskander: I just want to add there [00:45:30] Payman that Alex actually doesn’t have social media. So the current business that he has is totally [00:45:35] built on word of mouth. And I actually heard it through one of my, um, [00:45:40] high profile clients. And I was like, I know Alex because she was like, I’ve been doing coaching. [00:45:45] And then I was I went to university with him, and then I kept seeing him around in [00:45:50] Soho House. And you.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t use social media Personally.

Alex Potter: No, I quit.

Rhona Eskander: No, the [00:45:55] company doesn’t have it.

Alex Potter: I quit the day. I quit everything.

Payman Langroudi: Personally as well as personally.

Alex Potter: Professionally, [00:46:00] everything. And look, I’m not here. I don’t believe technology. Technology is neither. It’s agnostic. [00:46:05] It’s not good or bad. It’s how it’s used, right? So if you’re using social media to [00:46:10] to or if. Speaking for myself, if I was using social media to validate how I was feeling or, [00:46:15] or to receive likes in order to basically help me feel better. It’s a short [00:46:20] lived dopamine release, right? Like it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s not, um, [00:46:25] long term fulfilling. Um, as a business kaizen, [00:46:30] which is our company and our interdisciplinary coaching company, where we bring together [00:46:35] different practitioners from psychologists to functional medicine doctors [00:46:40] to different coaches to medicine guides. What [00:46:45] what we recognised was that actually trying to tell people about our [00:46:50] business, which is, um, you know, a one format of [00:46:55] doing it via the lens of social media and claim based outcomes about, [00:47:00] you know, your seven steps to living your best life. Like for me personally, never [00:47:05] felt congruent with my own journey. Um, what has [00:47:10] felt congruent was allowing people’s experience working with [00:47:15] us to do the marketing for that ever we needed. So for [00:47:20] the last seven years, the company that we’ve built has relied entirely on [00:47:25] word of mouth marketing and some email marketing around the community [00:47:30] that we’ve built. That’s not to say we’ll never not use social [00:47:35] media, but I don’t think we’ll ever use it as a sales mechanic. And [00:47:40] we will we will use it when I personally and my business partner feel personally [00:47:45] like we have the The right [00:47:50] frequency of the message to share. And so when you ask me, what am I challenged [00:47:55] with at the moment, it is the sharing of the right information [00:48:00] at the right time for the right person to be able to hear it. [00:48:05]

Rhona Eskander: And that’s the problem because social media is so based on clickbait, right? We had this conversation [00:48:10] a couple of weeks ago. Like even some dentists get really triggered because they’ll see [00:48:15] other dentists, you know, make a claim that’s not that big a deal, [00:48:20] but turn it into this huge deal because it’s clickbait. Does that make sense? And [00:48:25] there is that problem that goes on. Like sometimes I also find myself having to do like polarising [00:48:30] content because I know it’s going to do better for my like, algorithm. And, [00:48:35] you know, if you.

Payman Langroudi: Have to use it in any particular way, I mean, that’s the [00:48:40] nice thing about it that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but if you want to do well on social media, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:48:45] mean, for instance, Alex is not saying he wants to do well on social media. He’s saying, but if you.

Rhona Eskander: Want to bring business, which [00:48:50] is my goal. Yeah. And if he does eventually want to bring business through social media, [00:48:55] you do have to pivot in that direction.

Payman Langroudi: Hear me out, hear me out. For instance, I used to obsess [00:49:00] on the download numbers of the podcast. The podcast. Really? I haven’t looked for [00:49:05] the last six months. Really? I’ve not looked. I don’t care anymore. Yeah. [00:49:10]

Alex Potter: And I reckon it’s higher.

Payman Langroudi: Probably, yeah. Probably. Not that I was making [00:49:15] any changes based on the numbers, because it’s not as easy.

Rhona Eskander: But also you’re not relying on the podcast [00:49:20] to bring you income. The podcast is something. But people that are people that rely [00:49:25] on social media to bring them brand partnerships or if they get paid per [00:49:30] download on YouTube.

Payman Langroudi: In any event, let’s imagine he wants to use social media as his main [00:49:35] marketing engine. You know, the nature of the way that he would use it [00:49:40] would be in line with Kaizen. And that wouldn’t be clickbait. [00:49:45] Clickbait would.

Alex Potter: And of course. So it’s like what is the what is the the use of the technology [00:49:50] and what is if you want to closed loop return, which always terrified [00:49:55] me a little bit because when I brought on private equity into our business, we used to we used [00:50:00] to create. And so in hospitality business we used to, you know, create incredible experiences. [00:50:05] We used to do events for rum kitchen, like at the carnival, you would do things that didn’t have a [00:50:10] clear closed loop marketing ROI. Yeah. But when we took on private [00:50:15] equity, these guys, you know, they wanted, you know, wanted to wanted to cut those things out, which was actually, you know, [00:50:20] the brand partnership stuff that you did. You can’t you didn’t have the tools then to necessarily close the loop. [00:50:25]

Payman Langroudi: You kind of regret bringing in private equity because a lot of dentists grapple with this.

Rhona Eskander: They [00:50:30] have maybe two practices.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And then they’re thinking, should they be 30 practices.

Alex Potter: Massively, [00:50:35] you know.

Payman Langroudi: And so do you think you would have carried on more organically without it. [00:50:40]

Alex Potter: And it was the, you know, the at that time we were going through a, you [00:50:45] know, a casual dining boom, you know. So and you’ve got multiple partners and you’ve taken money from [00:50:50] friends and family, and you’re hopeful that you can return some of that money and the trust and [00:50:55] the and and the hope that they gave you. And in doing so, you have this, you know, [00:51:00] the world is presented in a way that you will become happy once you have more money, [00:51:05] and once you have a house and a second house, and you can send your kids to X, Y, and Z, or do [00:51:10] what however you know it is, or in some variation of that. And so I think like there’s [00:51:15] a great quote, which I’m sure you’ve heard before, but like comparison is the thief of joy, of course. And [00:51:20] the reason that I came off social media was because I recognised [00:51:25] that I was losing my sense of self, like I wasn’t able to create from that [00:51:30] place that I needed to, that I wanted to because I was looking at what [00:51:35] the next restauranteur was doing in L.A. and going, oh, I’ll tell you what, we should do a version [00:51:40] of that V like what is actually, like coming through me. What is asking [00:51:45] to be created? You know, actually, like there’s this you know, when Rick Rubin talks about [00:51:50] it, that there are, you know, there are ideas like in [00:51:55] the universal cosmic, you know, sort of, uh, sky above [00:52:00] us, let’s call it that.

Alex Potter: When we tune to that frequency, [00:52:05] we can receive, we can receive information. So meditation, breathwork, these [00:52:10] are opportunities for me to actually, like, align myself with what is [00:52:15] being either you know, what is what is within me that wants to be birthed or [00:52:20] what can I receive from from um, that is asking to be created. [00:52:25] And that’s really what I help people do now, which is [00:52:30] asking people very clearly like, you know, what [00:52:35] is your heart longing for? Because the head will tell you [00:52:40] a ton of other things, right? You know what I think when you hear yourself saying I should, I need, [00:52:45] I must. That is more. That is when we have subordinated to societal ideologies [00:52:50] about what we think we should be doing. Yeah, right. So you talked about depression before. [00:52:55] Depression. The best description that one of our psychologists, you know, you know, termed it, which I thought [00:53:00] was amazing or at least gave a gave a, gave a gave a good descriptor was, was the comparison [00:53:05] of your current reality to the fantasy of the life that you think you should be living? Love that. [00:53:10] Yeah. I was like, wow, okay. If if that [00:53:15] is the the the descriptor will. Social media is [00:53:20] a is a pretty good you know when used in that way. Well you [00:53:25] can trace back a lot of our own current societal problems, you know, to [00:53:30] the way in which we believe that we should need or must [00:53:35] act in order to be happy, successful, loved, or valued.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. I’ve got [00:53:40] a question for you. Do you think that since you embarked on your own [00:53:45] professional journey and where you are now, do you ever get depression? [00:53:50]

Alex Potter: I don’t label the the [00:53:55] you know, I don’t pathologize my experiences [00:54:00] as depression or as anxiety. The way that I have [00:54:05] come to understand myself is through different lenses of understanding [00:54:10] how my psyche works. So one in particular that I find very helpful, that I’m also trained in is [00:54:15] internal family systems, which.

Rhona Eskander: We’ve done a lot of we’ve.

Alex Potter: Done a lot of. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So what is it?

Alex Potter: It’s [00:54:20] the internal family systems is developed by a beautiful, you know, psychotherapist and psychologist called [00:54:25] Dick Schwartz. Um, it it’s built from he was a he was a family. [00:54:30] Um, it was a family therapist and recognised after a series of sort [00:54:35] of, you know, of a 30 year career of working in Family Constellations that actually [00:54:40] we have an inner family that exists within us. So I’ll give you sort of the [00:54:45] the sort of the sort of broad brush strokes. There’s a part of you [00:54:50] that, you know, wants to, um, you know, eat the chocolate bar [00:54:55] and a part of you that says, you know, you’ve had enough chocolate today. Okay. Can you see those two parts? Sure. [00:55:00] Yeah. Can you see the. Can you see the part of you that’s observing those two parts now? Okay. So if [00:55:05] you can imagine that that part is observing, the part that’s observing those two parts is self. So in the meditative [00:55:10] practice when people, you know, through eastern practices of meditation and kind of my training, [00:55:15] you would be taught to become the observer of your thoughts. So in this instance, instead of becoming [00:55:20] the observer of your thoughts, where you can recognise that these are just things that are passing [00:55:25] by, and you can choose whether or not to attach to the story or the ruminating thought [00:55:30] or return to self. And you can use your breath to do that. And a practice of, [00:55:35] you know, meeting the moment where it’s at at all times, right? So [00:55:40] the internal family system is that I can observe a part of me that might be feeling upset, or [00:55:45] that a part of me that’s feeling protective, or a part of me that’s feeling scared, or a part of [00:55:50] me that’s feeling hopeful.

Alex Potter: And so rather than allow myself [00:55:55] to become the story or the experience, which I think so many of us get caught with, where [00:56:00] you drop and and and drop into that space of darkness. [00:56:05] We have different practices that are able to help us create maps for the psyche, [00:56:10] that can help us create some space in between stimulus [00:56:15] and response, as Viktor Frankl would say, is a space, and in that space is our power to choose [00:56:20] how we respond. So one of the things that I teach and have worked [00:56:25] with, you know, Rhona on is recognising when we’re blending [00:56:30] into a part of us that’s more of our managerial protective part or more of our firefighter [00:56:35] part Or and and giving us the opportunity to recognise wow, there’s [00:56:40] an inner child part that it might be seeking our attention. Now that inner child [00:56:45] part, when it’s being neglected or when it’s being ignored, is more likely to [00:56:50] start to. We’ll try and get your attention. If we’re sat around a family table [00:56:55] right now and the little, little one of your children is asking for your attention, and you [00:57:00] continue to ignore it and cross it over to the table, what’s it going to do?

Payman Langroudi: I know you’ve [00:57:05] even brought this up. You’ve brought this up many times in these conversations.

Alex Potter: So, so one of the [00:57:10] things in this model and through this lens that I really found so incredibly empowering [00:57:15] was, wow, that the inner child or the part of me that is seeking my attention [00:57:20] may start, you know, saying things in order to get my attention. [00:57:25] And those might be intrusive thoughts that limit me.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not you, though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the parts [00:57:30] of you.

Alex Potter: Yeah. Self Khan in this model like self is, you know, unique self [00:57:35] to self.

Payman Langroudi: That is such a useful way of looking at it.

Rhona Eskander: Because you know. But you know, what’s really hard is what I found [00:57:40] is, is that people that haven’t done this kind of work really find it difficult, and [00:57:45] it’s really hard to give people grace. One of the things that me and my partner argue about a lot [00:57:50] is because he has not done this kind of work. He’s a little bit more black and white thinking. Um, so if you’ve [00:57:55] not like whereas like he doesn’t understand where I have empathy, I’m going to bring up a little bit of a controversial subject. [00:58:00] So, you know, this whole like thing with the Luigi Maglione, the, the guy [00:58:05] that just killed. Right. So my partner is very much like, I think it’s absolutely [00:58:10] dreadful that people are celebrating someone that killed another [00:58:15] person. And the person that he killed really didn’t have that much control over an entire system [00:58:20] that’s flawed. And he was like, it’s just madness. Now, there was two parts to this because on the [00:58:25] one hand, he was like, the reason the internet is celebrating it is because the guy is good looking, because [00:58:30] if he was a red, um, a red neck Trump supporting, hating [00:58:35] American guy. You know, everyone would be like a redneck killed this dude. You know, it wouldn’t even have made the news in [00:58:40] the same way. Or even if it was, you know, an immigrant or a black person or anything like that, he was like it [00:58:45] would hit differently. That was one part. You know how social media idolises looks, as [00:58:50] it were. And then the other part was, how can we celebrate someone that’s killed someone? But obviously the [00:58:55] part side of me and all the work that I’ve done, like, yeah, but you never understand. Of course, I’m not going to go around murdering people [00:59:00] that I’m angry with, but until you’ve been in that person’s shoes, it’s the same with the Menendez [00:59:05] brothers, for example. You can’t really know what is going on for that person, what their history [00:59:10] was, what that part of them was. Of course, I’m not saying killing someone is easy, but I have empathy. [00:59:15]

Payman Langroudi: For.

Rhona Eskander: People.

Payman Langroudi: I think everyone in prison needs a conversation and talk and [00:59:20] understanding and whoever has committed a crime. I find what you said particularly useful in [00:59:25] so much as sometimes the tension between two behaviours that are both [00:59:30] useful but opposite. Yes. You know, like someone like you.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me who [00:59:35] you are. Who you are. You’ve become. Who you’ve become because you haven’t sat back and sat [00:59:40] on your laurels. You’ve constantly pushed. And yet what you [00:59:45] need more than anything is peace. And being at peace is [00:59:50] almost like being content. And being content to you is almost like a dirty word. [00:59:55] Because if you were content, you wouldn’t be the type of person to keep pushing.

Rhona Eskander: Well, that’s what he always.

Payman Langroudi: Says to me. And [01:00:00] yet when you can separate those and say, these are both part of me now, it serves me to look [01:00:05] at contentment. Now it serves me. If you’ve got the the ability to change [01:00:10] your the way you look at it, that’s it’s amazing. And that’s a wonderful thing.

Alex Potter: Therein [01:00:15] lies your freedom, right. Because you choose, we develop protective parts [01:00:20] that come online at a younger age to protect the inner child part of us. So something that might happen, [01:00:25] okay, if we’re not getting attention. Well, the part of us that that might be too hard for the [01:00:30] for the child at that developmental model, you know, and during it’s a sort of attachment stage to [01:00:35] work out actually how it’s feeling because it’s actually feels so overwhelmed. [01:00:40] And in this model, a part that’s traditionally when a protective part comes [01:00:45] online, that protective or managerial part. Well, I tell you, what I’m going to do is [01:00:50] I know how to make us, you know, actually receive attention. So I’ll start getting [01:00:55] good grades, I’ll start performing well, I’ll start building businesses, I’ll start X, Y, and Z. So [01:01:00] we develop this, these, these, these parts of ourselves that can, can [01:01:05] help us overcome our challenges. Now that’s great. And that’s all well and good. And it’s not to. [01:01:10] There’s no such thing as any bad. There’s no bad part here. It’s just acknowledging when we’ve blended [01:01:15] into one at the cost of the other. So if we’re all go, go, go. So to talk to my own story, [01:01:20] I was probably seeking attention, you know, in some way, shape or [01:01:25] form. I wanted to be validated. I was small, I didn’t feel that at that time that I was being [01:01:30] seen. So I wanted to be seen.

Alex Potter: I wanted to be loved. You know, I was small, [01:01:35] so, you know, I thought the girls were taller than me. So it was, you know, harder to, you know, to [01:01:40] find a girl who was short and kind of, you know, looked and, you know, wanted to be with the short [01:01:45] guy. So, you know, you that part of you then develops some really clever [01:01:50] coping mechanisms about how it can be seen, how it can be loved, how it can be validated. [01:01:55] And to to use my own story and speaking for myself, [01:02:00] what I was able to see was that after a while, that part of me exhausted [01:02:05] the body because it’s it’s operating from a place where I was. It was [01:02:10] burning out because there’s no there was no stopping it. It was like, I know how to make us feel better. I know how to help us be [01:02:15] seen. And after a while I recognised wow. Like, actually there’s [01:02:20] in doing this work and you know, I’ve, you know, trained in breathwork, as I said, and multiyear [01:02:25] a multiyear initiation into plant medicine and different. I spent times [01:02:30] with different tribes and lived in the jungle and sat in different meditation halls and worked with different [01:02:35] from, you know, from different schools of eastern practices [01:02:40] to actually learn how to return to [01:02:45] my self, like the, the, the, the [01:02:50] part of me that can actually the self can hold all parts of me, the inner child, the protective [01:02:55] part, the firefighter part, and to be able to, instead of being the part that’s holding the [01:03:00] Atlas ball that I talked about, actually, I can self can hold all of it.

Alex Potter: It can feel [01:03:05] supported, supported and and and held by, [01:03:10] you know, if you want to go super woo woo but sort of the cosmic father, the cosmic [01:03:15] mother, the cosmic child like the, the the opportunity to be held by the [01:03:20] universe itself when we think about and like this, this [01:03:25] you asked about darkness or depression, and I talked about this sort of architecture of hope. I’m [01:03:30] fascinated by the world. I don’t want [01:03:35] to leave it. I want to be in it. I don’t want to ascend out of it. I want to learn [01:03:40] how to how to live here as [01:03:45] an as full of joy and inspiration and hope. You know, because I [01:03:50] see people and I work with people and I know and I can see through. And [01:03:55] that’s why I didn’t realise I thought everyone had it. But I can see through your part that’s protecting [01:04:00] the inner child. I can see that child that [01:04:05] seeks to be heard, loved, to be held, to be told it’s going to be okay, to be told it’s safe. [01:04:10] That is empathy. That is the capacity to see to your point, beyond [01:04:15] the action of that person.

Rhona Eskander: I think that is extremely [01:04:20] rare. And the thing is, when you said, what’s the thing about that you struggle with the most? Well. Payman asked [01:04:25] about that. The thing that I struggled the most is that people aren’t truly seen and accepted for who they are. [01:04:30] And it’s so funny because when you enter the realm of healing and when you go delve [01:04:35] into this more and now you’ve heard so many of our speakers. Empathy is something that isn’t [01:04:40] present in a lot of people. The judgement even think about it in dentistry, right? The [01:04:45] GDC, the governing bodies, you know, like shame on you. Your action was bad. [01:04:50] There is never like society is not built on understanding people. Society [01:04:55] is built on this like capitalist punishment. And I don’t listen like I’m not this.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:05:00] yet it’s in everyone. You know exactly his his role in getting it out of everyone. Yeah, [01:05:05] it’s a nice thing.

Alex Potter: And also, just like, uh, Marshall Rosenberg, another incredible [01:05:10] psychotherapist and author of Non-Violent communication, you said this [01:05:15] statement, which we’ve shared before, this quote, every projection and judgement is [01:05:20] a tragic expression of an unloved need now that [01:05:25] every projection and judgement is a tragic expression of an unloved need. So the judgement [01:05:30] that we see in others is actually a response to [01:05:35] some tenderness inside us that, yeah, that, that, [01:05:40] that, that unloved need. So if you think about the unloved need, well, that is the need of the of the inner child [01:05:45] who now sees something happening that he’s been or she’s been told [01:05:50] or wasn’t able to do or feel as a child, then when they see it in the [01:05:55] external world, it is now. It is perceived as a judgement, as something that we want [01:06:00] to remove or tell you off. Now we live in a more left [01:06:05] hemispheric orientated society. It’s more logical, rational, organising, [01:06:10] practical. Um, this is how things are. These are the rules. We live in Britain, [01:06:15] you know. This is the hierarchy of how things should need or must be done. The [01:06:20] right hemisphere is more intuitive, it’s more, you know, accessing of the more feminine [01:06:25] archetype within us.

Alex Potter: It’s more accessing of wisdom and inner knowledge and inner knowing. [01:06:30] Now the the work is that is that what the opportunity [01:06:35] here is that everyone has access to all of themself, right? It’s just [01:06:40] so many of us have built walls around our hearts for good reason to protect [01:06:45] ourselves, to self defend and to know and to see that every [01:06:50] single person on this planet, our job on this planet, through speaking for myself, is to take [01:06:55] care of every single human being, every single plant, every single tree, every single, you [01:07:00] know, bird in the sky and fish in the sea. In a sense that when we fall back in love [01:07:05] with ourself and we will fall back in love with nature, there’s a lot of tired activists. [01:07:10] We fall back in love with nature. By dint of that, we’ll fall back in love with ourself. We can’t. [01:07:15] Not because it’s the relationship and the relationship that exists [01:07:20] in all of us and in life is to deeply reconnect [01:07:25] to that which is most meaningful, which is our self, and where you [01:07:30] can find it. That’s the beauty, is that there are so many different pathways. There are so many. [01:07:35] Great.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that information itself can be enough, [01:07:40] or do you think there has? It has to go hand in hand with something like breathwork [01:07:45] or with plant medicine.

Rhona Eskander: Let’s talk a little bit about the plant [01:07:50] medicine. Yeah.

Alex Potter: So well two things. So I love a love a quote by Lao Tzu [01:07:55] who said, in the pursuit of knowledge, man adds one thing every day, and in the pursuit of wisdom, [01:08:00] he subtracts one thing every day. And so to that context, like [01:08:05] information isn’t embodied, information is [01:08:10] through the mind. You know, so it’s it’s not enough to, to, [01:08:15] um, know the knowledge. You have to embody the wisdom. So we have [01:08:20] to be able to connect to our bodies, connect to our heart, [01:08:25] to understand how to live in [01:08:30] a way that is more aligned with our true nature. The challenge that we’re faced [01:08:35] with is like, now there’s we’ve got pop psychology, we’ve got bite sized pieces of information. Everyone [01:08:40] is now an expert on trauma. You know, like we all are able we’re able to talk in [01:08:45] a way that kind of we understand it. But do you really understand it? Do you really know what it feels like [01:08:50] to be at the bottom of the pit, where everything in your life feels [01:08:55] like ash grey like? And yes, you asked me before. There have been times [01:09:00] where I have been there.

Payman Langroudi: But do I have to have been there? Can’t you, can’t you?

Alex Potter: Yes. [01:09:05] You don’t. And thank thank God you haven’t. Right. And and and the reason [01:09:10] for being is like there’s a, there’s another quote I like and I’m sorry to give you tons of quotes, but, you know, [01:09:15] Rumi said like, you know, don’t take Don’t take advice from someone who hasn’t left home.

Rhona Eskander: That’s [01:09:20] why. Yeah, that’s why I chose Alex.

Alex Potter: Yeah, like cool, like fine people. If you’re [01:09:25] struggling with something, there are tons of people out there. The hardest thing is that we [01:09:30] don’t know how to ask for help. That’s what I’m so grateful for. Because I’m not making social media wrong here. I’m [01:09:35] just. I’m just noticing, like, you know, and it’s offering people such [01:09:40] vantage points now to like, what to explore and things like what you’re doing with podcasts as [01:09:45] such, have allowed people to have more long form conversations. I’m so grateful for it, because [01:09:50] there is the most fun thing is [01:09:55] that that I’ve noticed is that follow your curiosity, right. Your hardships, [01:10:00] your challenges. Like from the sort of stoic perspective, you know, challenge. You know, [01:10:05] it challenges what’s in your way. It’s on your way. You know, it’s it’s it’s recognising [01:10:10] that in this culture. And I can talk now to Camp Kaizen, which is our retreats, [01:10:15] you know, Brüno offering introduces the idea of rites of passage for the [01:10:20] modern world. Now, in ancient and original and indigenous cultures, [01:10:25] rites of passage were woven into the fabric of society. There [01:10:30] were demarcations from maid to maiden to mother to grandmother, [01:10:35] to sage, to no one. There was demarcations for men who would [01:10:40] go from boy to adolescent to man to sage, to no one. You would you? [01:10:45] These these demarcations would be would be met by initiatory [01:10:50] practices, whether or not that’s plant medicine, whether or not it’s a vision quest [01:10:55] out in nature, whether or not it’s fasting or meditative practices. [01:11:00] They recognised in original cultures that in order for let’s [01:11:05] call a boy in this context, that a boy would leave the bosom of his community and his home, [01:11:10] and would leave to go out for the first kill or blood, you know, in order to [01:11:15] make that transition to manhood or adolescent, whichever place we’re looking we’re speaking [01:11:20] to, the mothers would know that some of those boys wouldn’t [01:11:25] return, but they would recognise that in going [01:11:30] through that experience, the boy would be brought to his knees to [01:11:35] recognise what he was actually capable of without the support of [01:11:40] the, the, the environment that he’d grown up in.

Payman Langroudi: He’d be forged. He’d [01:11:45] be.

Alex Potter: Forged. Yes. Now, in the West, we’ve lost access to these practices. [01:11:50] So. But willed or unwilled. The soul requires initiation. Okay. Like [01:11:55] so. When you’re talking about these moments in time. This now in the [01:12:00] West presences us more on the back foot in the indigenous and original [01:12:05] cultures. It was met on the front foot in the West. We meet it on the back foot. Mental health [01:12:10] challenges. Chronic chronic chronic health challenges, um, addiction, [01:12:15] the loss of a loved one, um, burnout, divorce, addiction, [01:12:20] the way that I perceive these things and through this lens of rites of passage and soul work is [01:12:25] that we meet these initiatory experiences, [01:12:30] but we don’t have a cultural container that can help us make sense of [01:12:35] them. So when we think actually, oh my God, that person is like, you know, [01:12:40] you know, using drink and drugs to, you know, numb his feelings. Actually, it’s a very [01:12:45] clear indication for me that he is vibrating or she is vibrating out of alignment [01:12:50] with his true or her true nature and is ready to step [01:12:55] into the next chapter of their initiatory, you know, [01:13:00] through an initiatory process into becoming.

Rhona Eskander: But a lot of people would [01:13:05] argue, and I’m just going to play devil’s advocate, right? Because I know because I’m at the side of both types of conversation, [01:13:10] that that is a person that is weak of character. Now they [01:13:15] would say that person, you know, there are two people that are suffering from two similar [01:13:20] things. One indulges in drugs and drink, the other doesn’t indulge in drugs and drink, and then people would [01:13:25] celebrate the person that doesn’t because they’re strong. It’s survival of the fittest, etc. [01:13:30] I have a completely different point of view because of my empathy side. I think it’s more complex. We know through [01:13:35] the work of Gabor Mate as well that addiction isn’t clear cut, that people are more predisposed [01:13:40] to being addicts as well. And, you know, we need to provide a space for those types of people. One [01:13:45] thing that I would say is, is that I do think with social media and pop psychology [01:13:50] and so forth, people have been a little bit too indulgent in their self-diagnosis. And [01:13:55] instead of working towards becoming better, as it were, or working [01:14:00] towards a life that they feel is more fulfilling, they’re like, I have this condition and that’s [01:14:05] that, and they just indulge in all the information about their condition rather than moving towards getting [01:14:10] better.

Alex Potter: Yeah. And I think that the critical word there was self-diagnosis. Right. Yeah. So you [01:14:15] know, the to to what we want to do is try and meet [01:14:20] people where they’re at. Right. So the judgement that we can project onto someone, you know, is [01:14:25] a is an opportunity to look at like, well, where does that come from? Okay. Like how, how, how clean is your house right. [01:14:30] One the second part is, um, we all have, um, [01:14:35] our own quote unquote [01:14:40] vices, like the areas in which we go to for relief of X, [01:14:45] Y and Z feeling symptom, you know, pursue. So what I, [01:14:50] what I, what I think is like, what is important is that you’re talking about [01:14:55] like the self-indulgence comes potentially but like that’s a internally [01:15:00] it’s going to be very self-critical. Right. Because the projection is, oh, I don’t care. This is kind of my thing, I [01:15:05] don’t care like blah blah blah. But actually the internal voice is going to be very harsh. The critic will be very harsh. [01:15:10] Which is why we tend to be drinking or relieving in some contexts. I’m not saying [01:15:15] all I’m saying some, and I’m certainly not here to pathologize. Why [01:15:20] am I talking about rites of passage for the modern world? Right? Is [01:15:25] what we’ve recognised over the last five years or more. Six years of running different [01:15:30] retreats and working and introducing different forms of rites of passage is [01:15:35] that, you know, there is a requirement for, [01:15:40] um, stepping out. You know, a rites of passage tends [01:15:45] to follow sort of three, um, chapters. One is the separation, the separation [01:15:50] from that which, you know, like is your comfortable zone. Then there is the [01:15:55] stage of liminality. The liminality is where you, you move to a place or [01:16:00] you go on retreat or you spend time, you know, in a different country X, Y, and Z, where [01:16:05] the rules of your societal upbringing don’t apply.

Alex Potter: You can [01:16:10] dress up. You can. You can dance. You can be free. You can play different [01:16:15] characters. You can learn about different things, about yourself. And at some point, [01:16:20] there is the the conceptualisation of the return, as once [01:16:25] you have gone through an experience where you have placed [01:16:30] yourself in an environment or an experience where [01:16:35] you learn more about yourself, and you can then return with the gifts [01:16:40] of that, you know those of that inquiry. Plant medicine [01:16:45] experiences working with ayahuasca, psilocybin. These types of experiences are built [01:16:50] on this premise, right? Was that these were initiatory [01:16:55] practices that people would engage with at threshold [01:17:00] moments or transitional moments in their life to [01:17:05] help them realign with their soul purpose, their [01:17:10] soul nature. It wasn’t prescribed. It wasn’t like you do this and then you’re going to go and do these [01:17:15] 12 steps. Like it was like it was it was offered to them that it would become self-generated, [01:17:20] that you would be able to find the answers within. And so in [01:17:25] a world which is fighting for our attention, it’s very difficult to find [01:17:30] the time and space to actually listen to what is [01:17:35] emerging from within. Yeah, that’s why we design these experiences. We take people [01:17:40] away into beautiful, deep nature. Yeah. You know, [01:17:45] habitats where we engage in ancient practices, [01:17:50] where we honour ancient practices with the wisdom keepers that are still maintaining those practices [01:17:55] and help you apply that in modern applications for [01:18:00] today. Whether or not you are, we were you know, we.

[TRANSITION]: Work.

Rhona Eskander: I was gonna say. Is [01:18:05] it lots of like, CEOs? Is it? What kind of people kind of come on the retreat?

Alex Potter: You know, although [01:18:10] the majority of my clients are CEOs, our leaders are [01:18:15] public figures. I and we feel we work [01:18:20] with people like we have a predisposition and a desire to work with people who seek to live life [01:18:25] at their growth edge, who recognise that their life [01:18:30] and is an opportunity for this great adventure. Yeah. [01:18:35] And to recognise that healing doesn’t need to be this dark, this heavy, [01:18:40] this painful place. Right. Like you spoke to Marty. Marty [01:18:45] would say that trauma isn’t what happens to you. It’s what happens in the body as a result of what happens [01:18:50] to you. Okay. And on the flip side, I would say we are trying to create spaces [01:18:55] of unconditional love, right? Where unconditional love isn’t what happens [01:19:00] to you. It’s what happens in your body as a result of what happens to you, is to create [01:19:05] more opportunities where people can gather in community, where you can be seen and [01:19:10] met without your title, without your label. So yes, we do tend to work [01:19:15] with people who are who are seeking to pursue and create [01:19:20] in an in an authentic expression of themselves and in, in [01:19:25] service of greater, of something greater than themselves. And more often than not, we do find that [01:19:30] CEOs and leaders are people who have driven themselves to [01:19:35] the brink in order to be seen, to be loved, to be valued as a relationship [01:19:40] to how they feel about themselves.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s so super interesting. You know, right now we’re [01:19:45] interested in original cultures. How did how did Neanderthals [01:19:50] eat? How did they have sex? We’re so interested in that right now. Yeah. [01:19:55] And I think, you know, in the 60s, people were. Yeah, you know, that [01:20:00] that whole hippie thing and free love and all that. And I remember in the 90s [01:20:05] it became like that a bit in the dance culture. We get all these tribal gatherings [01:20:10] and all of that. And it’s an interesting thing that society kind of goes [01:20:15] through this phase every 30 years or so and, you know, where’s the next one? [01:20:20] And the 70s, I remember my mum telling me everyone said, don’t drink mother’s milk. And [01:20:25] science took over and powdered milk to go. And here we are with AI now. And [01:20:30] we’re the next, next decade’s going to go. It’s going to be very interesting.

Alex Potter: It’s going to be wild.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:20:35] not by mistake that you’re into this. I mean, my my friend, the McKinsey [01:20:40] bro. Yeah. Went to Peru and did ayahuasca, you know, like it’s become a [01:20:45] it’s become a whole movement. It’s a whole movement.

Alex Potter: It’s it’s a movement that needs to and [01:20:50] like and this is the thing like requires the right safeguarding, the right preparation, [01:20:55] the right integration. Because these experiences are can be, can be [01:21:00] can be very bewildering. It can be very opening, and you have to be. And I’m not saying I don’t believe that psychedelics [01:21:05] are a stateless like like, categorically I don’t believe it’s for everyone. And that’s not because like, oh, you’ve got to be of a [01:21:10] certain ilk, but it is important to have the right type of resources, the right [01:21:15] type of people around guardrails, the guardrails. And there’s a lot of neo shamans, [01:21:20] like people, you know, presenting themselves in ways without necessarily. I don’t mean to [01:21:25] make that wrong. I’m just cautious of anyone or or any [01:21:30] business that doesn’t have, you know, the right type of harm reduction built into [01:21:35] it. Um, and that was something that we were very, you know, we were very intentional about [01:21:40] is knowing what lane do we play in, who can we work with?

Payman Langroudi: What does it cost to come to the thing? [01:21:45]

Rhona Eskander: Do you want to go to.

Alex Potter: Well, so it starts from 2250 [01:21:50] and that is for the five day retreat. And then there’s two weeks of preparation and two weeks of [01:21:55] integration afterwards and then reasonable. And you join the you join we have a and then we have a community [01:22:00] support called the you know, the Unwind Club, which is an online and offline [01:22:05] um group that continues to meet every month.

Payman Langroudi: Ayahuasca in that.

Alex Potter: No, [01:22:10] no, no, that’s, that’s a it’s an online breathwork and meditation journey for the community. [01:22:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I didn’t say that.

Alex Potter: And the retreat in um in April. So April 9th [01:22:20] to 13th and we’ve got another one in August. Um, that’s where we work with psilocybin. Um, [01:22:25] and we integrate psilocybin and breathwork into, into that ceremony.

Rhona Eskander: So one thing I want to say to you is because this is [01:22:30] something that a lot of people ask me, and, you know, we haven’t got much long, [01:22:35] we haven’t got a long time. But I do want I think this is an important point to address for people [01:22:40] that say that anyone that really wants to help people in [01:22:45] the way that you have should have a psychotherapy degree. Now, I want to kind of address the elephant [01:22:50] in the room, because sometimes I get asked that by psychotherapists that I know or friend psychotherapist because [01:22:55] they’re like, it can be so dangerous treating clients with all these plethora of [01:23:00] issues and traumas. If you’re not a trained psychotherapist, and obviously I have a therapist [01:23:05] and I have you. So don’t really fall into that camp anyway. But what would be your response to that? [01:23:10]

Alex Potter: Um, so look, I think it’s a really it’s a beautiful question. Right. And I think there [01:23:15] are a lot of. You know, part of our team are incredible psychotherapists and depth psychologists. So [01:23:20] we we naturally are fascinated with the mind. Um, [01:23:25] psychotherapy. Modern psychotherapy was developed in the 1950s. Just to give you some context [01:23:30] of like how long we’re actually talking about. We’re talking about practice that’s been around for 70 years with [01:23:35] new and evolved therapies and developing, um, [01:23:40] psychotherapy traditionally divorces the mind from the body. Divorces matter [01:23:45] from spirit. Um, I think there are alternative pathways, [01:23:50] but it’s super important that the person who you’re working with, you feel comfortable [01:23:55] as a as it relates to your attachment style around safety and how you feel heard. [01:24:00] I find that people who are very strongly opinionated about something often have [01:24:05] their own judgement and self critique of themselves, so it’s a projection once again. The person who needs [01:24:10] to basically clarify why you should or shouldn’t work with someone. [01:24:15] There’s a there’s a there’s a beautiful mirror for them to to to to to also look for themselves. [01:24:20] Um, and short of that I don’t [01:24:25] think it needs to be one or the other. Right. I personally feel that healing [01:24:30] and growth and and the opportunities for magic and understanding what’s [01:24:35] available in this world, there are there are more traditional, more allopathic models that [01:24:40] one of the the challenges I find is when, um, symptoms are diagnosed [01:24:45] and then treated, um, by things like, but by [01:24:50] with some medicines that actually don’t help you get to the root cause of the of the problem.

Alex Potter: So the [01:24:55] approach that I take is we look at the holistic person as a whole. We look at [01:25:00] mental, physical, relational and spiritual domains. We work with people. So [01:25:05] with our team we will we will have an onboarding with us. And based on where we are [01:25:10] based on that onboarding and what you’re more drawn to, you might start with one of our psychotherapists [01:25:15] and then move to one of our coaches, or move to one of our medicine workers, or [01:25:20] or move to one of our guides. I think the thing that I [01:25:25] come back to, which is probably the important piece, is for me, I [01:25:30] want to the people that I’ve worked with are the people are some. [01:25:35] And I’ve been fortunate to work with some very wise and very, you know, wise teachers and [01:25:40] elders in this space and personally. I [01:25:45] like to work with people who’ve left home.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [01:25:50] I would agree with that. And I think really the answer is, is that you’re doing it responsibly. I think that [01:25:55] it’s important to do your due diligence. There are coaches online. I have been stung by a coach before, [01:26:00] and I think that working with Alex, you know, you’re very responsible. You only take on [01:26:05] certain clients. You make sure that you adhere to a program for a certain amount of time. You enter [01:26:10] refer. And I think that’s the message that I give to people. There are good therapists, there are bad therapists, there are good [01:26:15] coaches, there are bad coaches. And I think the multidisciplinary approach with Kaizen is what’s [01:26:20] definitely helped me. Why are you laughing at me?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your little girl. Like, what’s your little.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, [01:26:25] we don’t have time. I don’t have time to go into.

Payman Langroudi: Your little girl. Say, go on, what’s the headline?

Rhona Eskander: Look, the [01:26:30] little girl feel. The little girl always feels like she’s not enough and not heard right. He’s [01:26:35] always obsessed with this. He’s like, why? Your life is perfect. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Why? No. What happened? [01:26:40] What happened.

Rhona Eskander: Back then? I think, like, look, there’s a plethora of things, and this is not a session [01:26:45] time, okay? You know, if you want to find out more, you’re going to have to do this offline. But [01:26:50] what I do want to say is, um, Alex, before we end, could you please share with everyone the website? [01:26:55] Because as I said, Alex does not have social media. Um, it’s through word of mouth. Uh, could you [01:27:00] please tell us what your website is if people want to look further?

Alex Potter: For sure. Thank you, both of you, for having [01:27:05] me. And it was a wonderful conversation. I hope we can do it again. Yeah, you can find more access to [01:27:10] us at WW. Dot. Yeah. Kaizen k a I xenko [01:27:15] that’s ww WW kaizen.co. [01:27:20] And that’s not with an E okay.

Rhona Eskander: I love that so much. Do you have a final question [01:27:25] for Alex. As in like one of the profound ones that you ask? No, I.

Payman Langroudi: Just wanted to know who the he [01:27:30] wants to.

Rhona Eskander: Know more about the.

Payman Langroudi: Why the little girl is not enough. That would be nice. After 38 episodes. [01:27:35]

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Do you want to end with that after 38 episodes? He says he wants to know why. Go [01:27:40] on. I don’t mind telling the Dental world. Why does the little Rona not feel enough?

[TRANSITION]: Beautiful. [01:27:45]

Alex Potter: Oh, you want me to ask? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You know me, Alex. Now.

[TRANSITION]: Code.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:27:50] one line.

Alex Potter: It’s not that she doesn’t feel [01:27:55] that she’s. It’s not that she doesn’t feel that she’s not enough. It’s that you’re not spending enough time [01:28:00] with.

[TRANSITION]: Her, okay?

Payman Langroudi: She’s disconnected from her.

Alex Potter: Yeah. So the [01:28:05] the the opportunity here is to find [01:28:10] and steal those quiet moments for yourself. Yeah. To ask her what she would [01:28:15] like to.

[TRANSITION]: Do instead.

Rhona Eskander: Of shutting her up.

Alex Potter: Instead of instead of shutting her up or pushing her [01:28:20] away, or telling her that, you know, that. That she’s too busy. [01:28:25]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Potter: And we have an opportunity to reparent ourselves. And healing begins [01:28:30] by reclaiming the parts of us that we have either pushed away or suppressed, [01:28:35] and we can walk them home by just bringing them [01:28:40] into our awareness.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Alex. What a great conversation. [01:28:45] Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you, thank you.

Payman Langroudi: This pod is brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover, which is a two day [00:00:05] anterior composite hands on course led by Depeche Palmer. Loads [00:00:10] of people do A-line, bleach, bond, and there’s plenty of people who find the aligning [00:00:15] bit and the bleaching bit more comfortable, but the bonding bit a lot [00:00:20] less comfortable. And then the bonding bit is the bit. Is the sugar on top of the case? My advice is [00:00:25] practice, but if you want to go on a course, the best course I know is called Mini Smile Makeover. [00:00:30] All the way from class three, four, five to diastema closure, composite veneers, the [00:00:35] basics and the advanced monochromatic Polychromatic Restorations mini Smile makeover. [00:00:40] If you’re interested, let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman [00:01:00] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:05] gives me great pleasure to welcome Riaz Sharif to the pod. Rios [00:01:10] I’m a mini small maker. Um, but as [00:01:15] a turbulent journey to become a dentist and is now making the best of both that [00:01:20] and his teaching and sports. Um. [00:01:25] And mindset. Lovely to have you, buddy.

Riaz Sharif: Thanks for having for having me. Appreciate it. [00:01:30] Yeah. It’s, um, it’s been a journey so far. To be honest, I didn’t really expect to get where [00:01:35] I am today based on what, you know, where I started off. But yeah, it’s been [00:01:40] a good few years and eventually getting to where I want to be, to be honest. But, yeah, appreciate [00:01:45] you having me on on the show.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive pleasure. It’s a massive pleasure. Thank you. But tell me about your [00:01:50] background. So, um, as a child.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. So as a child, I was raised in, actually in London. Um, [00:01:55] so it’s nice to actually be back in, back in north west London, in London and Camden. But I was born in Hackney. [00:02:00] I was raised as a. I was an orphan, actually. So I was came out of hospital [00:02:05] and entered the system. So, yeah, I didn’t really know, [00:02:10] you know, it was dysfunctional. You know, as a child, you don’t know where you’re going. You’re taken from one [00:02:15] place to another place. You’re entering family homes with with children that you don’t know. You’re [00:02:20] you know, you’re accepted, you’re made to bond with them. And then about 2 or 3 [00:02:25] years later, or even less than that, you’re, you’re you’re up on your, on your feet and you’re gone again. So obviously that [00:02:30] does have a negative impact on your on your development as a child. And, and actually what you want [00:02:35] to achieve as a, as a person to growing up. So yeah, that that was a challenge. Obviously being young [00:02:40] and obviously picking your sort of path in life and knowing what’s good and bad. [00:02:45] But no, it’s been it’s been challenging.

Payman Langroudi: What happened to your parents?

Riaz Sharif: So [00:02:50] my mum and dad well, I never knew my mum and dad. So yeah, what I’ve heard [00:02:55] is that she was a was a very young woman. Um, I don’t the stories. I don’t think she could have [00:03:00] looked after me. So obviously she’d done her best and gave me up to Post-adoption services [00:03:05] in Hackney. And the rest is history. So, um, whatever she hoped [00:03:10] for me, it sort of, um. That was just destiny, I guess, wasn’t it? But, [00:03:15] um. Yeah, she. I have been in search for her, and that’s obviously, I think, as any orphan, you [00:03:20] know, it’s the biggest question in your life. You want to find out who who you are. You know, you look in the mirror, you wonder, [00:03:25] you know, who your mum and dad were. And especially as a man or a woman or a young woman. [00:03:30] You want to think, am I? Would they be proud of me? You know, do I represent them? And [00:03:35] who are they? So I did try and look for them, and it’s been a big search. But I, you know, I haven’t really it’s hit [00:03:40] dead end so far, so but it’s been one of my things that I do want to accomplish [00:03:45] one day and I will not give up on it. But meantime I’ll sort of, you know, press forward and [00:03:50] wanted to make something of myself. And I think as, as orphans, you can either go either go left or right. You [00:03:55] can either go down a dark path, which I did go down growing up. And obviously [00:04:00] you sort of steer away and go hope for the light and keep aiming high and hope [00:04:05] hopefully there’s a lot of good, positive influences around you that can help you. And I did have that fortunately [00:04:10] like a few people.

Payman Langroudi: So foster care.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. There you know there was a yeah I was [00:04:15] I was in a few good foster carer homes. So a lot of them were South African people and Caribbean families. [00:04:20] So you know, and you, you form friendships with the children. So but [00:04:25] you know as a young child you got glimpses of it. But then obviously there’s a few key people that did stand [00:04:30] out. And there was one.

Payman Langroudi: There was one important point, right, that in [00:04:35] adverse conditions, the worst of humanity seems to, [00:04:40] you know, come out sometimes, but also the best.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Yeah, it’s a very [00:04:45] important point. You know, you’ve got your adverse conditions. It could be war. It could be anything. [00:04:50] Tell me, tell me about. I’d like to like to hear a couple of examples of both, really, if I’m honest with [00:04:55] you. If you want to talk about the worst parts. I definitely want to hear about the best part.

Riaz Sharif: The worst parts are the attachments, [00:05:00] so you know, the bonds that you form with the family and the emotional connection that you can gain. And then obviously [00:05:05] it’s taken away from you. And as a young man, you sort of you, you, you lack these [00:05:10] certain emotional boundaries and attachments that you form as an adult. And it does it does affect [00:05:15] your relationships growing up. It affects your you know, your you know who you are and [00:05:20] what you resemble and what you you know who you are as a person, really, but that’s for you [00:05:25] to sort of mould and then redesign yourself as a as a young man and not let that trauma of the past [00:05:30] affect you. And, you know, it does take a lot of a lot of work, I [00:05:35] believe. And I’m getting there.

Payman Langroudi: But how does it leave you? Is it is it that you’ve got a debt [00:05:40] of safety and now you crave safety?

Riaz Sharif: I used to.

Payman Langroudi: I used to.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:05:45] I think it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: You love being in love.

Riaz Sharif: I think it’s the the the idea of being [00:05:50] acknowledged and appreciated and loved, like you said, you know. And, [00:05:55] you know, reciprocating that love into your into your either your partner, your sibling, your your [00:06:00] your siblings, if you have any or your, your children or even your career, you know, and [00:06:05] your lifestyle. And I think, um, it’s a big thing to, to sort of I think anyone [00:06:10] has to learn how to do it, you know, and we all have our ways. But those traumas of the past, [00:06:15] they only make I thought they were traumas. But as you get older, they.

Payman Langroudi: Make you stronger.

Riaz Sharif: I [00:06:20] appreciate them, I’ve learned. I’ve learned to be grateful for what I went through. And it’s [00:06:25] been, you know, it’s been lonely growing up. But I got here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I bet. And what do you see as the sort [00:06:30] of the inflection point between someone who’s going down the dark path [00:06:35] and then at one point, when are.

Riaz Sharif: You going to.

Payman Langroudi: Look for the positive? What is it that [00:06:40] why does one guy go that way and one go or at one time someone goes that way?

Riaz Sharif: I think when [00:06:45] you’re when you’re you’re young and you don’t have a lot of, um, good, positive attitude around [00:06:50] you or influence you. You know, one person’s telling you to do something bad. One person is [00:06:55] whispering to do something good. You don’t know who to listen to. Yeah. And normally, and obviously one path seems easier. [00:07:00] You’ll take that. And you know, the more challenging pathways don’t you don’t want to do that. It doesn’t make sense [00:07:05] to you unless, you know, it’s different to being raised in a house that is your natural family. [00:07:10] I believe. You know, you’re raising your kids and you’re guiding them from and especially from a family who are professionals, [00:07:15] for example, dentists or doctors or lawyers or whatever they are, and they’re guiding their children [00:07:20] and they’re influencing them daily. Like, listen, you could they got role models around you. I never had any role [00:07:25] models. My role models were people who I don’t even remember right now, and [00:07:30] they meant nothing to me. But I did have one role model, and he was a lovely [00:07:35] man, and he was one of my foster fathers. And I believe the way he stayed my [00:07:40] career as a dentist, like to become a dentist or make something of my life and and because [00:07:45] because of his interest in it at the time and his is a reflection on me. He was like, listen, you can sit down and [00:07:50] you know, this is going on in, you know, you could be a dentist and maybe you can, you know, it was it was I didn’t [00:07:55] really give a crap about it. I didn’t, I didn’t, wasn’t interested.

Payman Langroudi: But somehow I.

Riaz Sharif: Had this small, like I said to you, [00:08:00] this small influence that was there. But, you know, you only later on appreciate [00:08:05] it and think, well, that was important. And so you.

Payman Langroudi: Think he had an interest in medicine and he [00:08:10] was trying to live it out.

Riaz Sharif: You know, or something. Yeah. He was he was actually seeing a dentist for his, [00:08:15] for his own cosmetic work in Harley Street. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously he, you know, I was a young teenager, a bit [00:08:20] disruptive, didn’t really have an educational background. Yeah. And he, he’d still, um, [00:08:25] checking on me. Actually, I was quite fortunate. We were good friends, even after he, you know, he had his own life. [00:08:30] And, um, he was always saying, listen, there’s this is a good career [00:08:35] stable. You know, boxing was my main scope of of of income.

Payman Langroudi: And also [00:08:40] at that point.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, keeping me busy. So I was boxing in London at the time in Bethnal Green for dancing [00:08:45] and boxing club is a big, big club. Great coach. A lot of good. Those people in that club. Those. [00:08:50] Those clubs were my family. They. They helped me. They guided me. They made me feel [00:08:55] like I belong somewhere. And so, you know, it’s [00:09:00] that was that that helped me for a lot of things, boxing and fitness. And even today, [00:09:05] I believe as a as a dentist now finally, and making my own, [00:09:10] my own life. It’s a, it’s a it’s important for me to keep focussed with a fitness [00:09:15] background to tell me about boxing.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, fitness, I get [00:09:20] boxing. Tell me about boxing. Boxing.

Riaz Sharif: For me, growing up, it like it’s like you just mentioned. [00:09:25] You know what? What stopped me going down that dark path? It was the discipline in boxing. Yeah, yeah. [00:09:30] And even when we watch TV. Like what? You don’t realise how much those, those trainers, those [00:09:35] boxers go for in terms of discipline and commitment and and even sacrifice. [00:09:40] Yeah. But even as a, as an amateur boxer, you’re only young, but you know, you have to have to turn up. You have to [00:09:45] do the drills. You have to, you know, sweat, tears, blood. You have to face your fear in front [00:09:50] of huge guys when you spar. But those guys become your brothers. And I was lucky [00:09:55] and fortunate to have that in London. You know, when I was, when I was little, because once they all left, I didn’t have anything. I’d [00:10:00] go back to social services and stay there and, you know, but then I looked forward to having [00:10:05] that family, which I called my family and, um, yeah, it’s it’s [00:10:10] just it’s memories now, but it’s all, you know, it makes you emotional because I can tap into it and feel how I felt [00:10:15] back then and, um. Yeah, grateful for that. It was discipline that that helped me get through [00:10:20] those, those times too. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you go into a ring and you’ve been working [00:10:25] your butt off for something. Yeah, for a long time. And like you said, blood, sweat and tears. [00:10:30] Yeah. And then it goes wrong. Or one wrong move might. Might cost you your health. [00:10:35] Like, is it fear? Is fear in the moment driving you? Absolutely.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s it’s [00:10:40] you. Do you battle with yourself and you can’t, you know, you’re fighting your your mind is [00:10:45] fighting against you whether you succeed or not. But then obviously it’s a make or break situation, isn’t it, when you step into [00:10:50] the ring. Yeah, it’s different seeing it on TV. And obviously people watch these huge fights on TV every now and again, [00:10:55] you know, and these big names. But but being that person even in like a small amateur fight but I did [00:11:00] I boxed like in um like actually junior ABA championships. So it was quite successful there. [00:11:05] But even in those fights it was daunting. People cheering around you, your friends, you know, and [00:11:10] but you want to you want to do it for yourself, you know. And even if you do lose, you know, [00:11:15] for me, it was it was never it was always about going back to the drawing board and and starting again. And even [00:11:20] with my steps into dentistry, you know, I failed several times. And I always went back to the drawing [00:11:25] board and I started again. I never gave up, you know, and that’s that’s what’s in [00:11:30] it’s embedded in me as a person, as a young man now. And whatever I do, I’ll do it with 1,000%. And [00:11:35] I think, you know, and I think with, you know, as an orphan, it’s [00:11:40] I still we were we were all that small person inside us, aren’t we? I believe we’re all that small, young little [00:11:45] girl. That young little man. That young little boy. And when we’re in an adult body. But we’re still [00:11:50] trying to figure out life. Trying to learn from our mistakes. Right? And. But, [00:11:55] you know, it’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like, you know, life is sometimes. Sometimes it’s scary. [00:12:00] It’s, of course scary. Unpredictable. Look at look at it as, like a wave length, you know, like of, like, [00:12:05] amplitude and frequency, you know, and frequency is like, you know, how many times a day [00:12:10] do you go to the gym or how many times a day do you call your mom, you know, or whatever [00:12:15] it is? Yeah, yeah. But amplitude is like sort of the depth of the [00:12:20] of the experiences, you know, like the highs and the lows of [00:12:25] it. Yeah. And, you know, the way you’re describing it that you’ve had a bunch of high [00:12:30] amplitude.

Riaz Sharif: It’s, it’s been, it’s been it’s been chaos. Chaos at moments. But then, but then [00:12:35] in those chaotic moments, you, you, you hope to see the light. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does it make you make you? Does it also make [00:12:40] you like an adrenaline junkie as well?

Riaz Sharif: It makes me, you know, keep on my feet. I always [00:12:45] want to be doing something. I always hope for the best.

Payman Langroudi: You want to jump out of planes and ride motorbikes.

Riaz Sharif: I want to experience [00:12:50] life to the fullest. I want, I want, I think that I can’t I can’t live a routine life now because, [00:12:55] you know, I can’t even go to those locations. I can’t. I want to be, I want to be on the ball. I want to be [00:13:00] on the go. You know? I want to try different things. And I think, you know, it’s good. [00:13:05] I think being stuck in the same position is boring.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, there’s good and bad, like everything else is good and [00:13:10] bad.

Riaz Sharif: There’s pros and cons in it. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That, you know, like, contentment is a nice thing we were talking about.

Riaz Sharif: It’s nice to [00:13:15] have your own little safe haven.

Payman Langroudi: In the countryside now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. I live [00:13:20] with my partner in countryside right now, but yeah, we’ve got our own little place there. It’s nice and peaceful, but obviously, um. [00:13:25] Yeah, it’s like you said, I like to be on my toes. I like to try different things, [00:13:30] and it keeps me happy and busy.

Payman Langroudi: So you turned around. Does this get to the [00:13:35] applying for dentistry suddenly, you know, Studying. And so you managed to turn that around very quickly. [00:13:40]

Riaz Sharif: I never actually got into dentistry initially in the UK. So, you know, my educational background [00:13:45] was very disruptive. Didn’t really you know, I was in different schools, didn’t really go to school really. And [00:13:50] somehow I managed to get into a biomedical science route in Birmingham. [00:13:55] And that was that was about a three year degree. Bachelor’s degree. Mhm. Um, [00:14:00] didn’t really do well. And it got, got, you know, got the basics of what I needed to pass the degree. [00:14:05] But again, I didn’t get into the postgrad course. So again like I said to you it goes back to what you’re saying about determination. [00:14:10] I don’t want to give up on it. I thought either that or I become a gym trainer or, you know, I’ve had a lot of [00:14:15] jobs in my past, you know, and so I’m quite multi-skilled. I could have gone back to doing, um, you [00:14:20] know, I worked in Pizza Hut, I worked in I worked as a fishmonger. I worked in a car showroom. [00:14:25] I’ve done every job under the. Yeah. So those skills. Life skills. So I wasn’t scared of going [00:14:30] back to a normal, like a job that I could adapt to.

Payman Langroudi: It, that life skills are amazing.

Riaz Sharif: Oh, yeah. [00:14:35] But it’s nice because all those skills back then seemed tiring. And, you know, you used [00:14:40] they. It’s good. I appreciate having those jobs because, you know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Only realise keeps you humble. [00:14:45] I only realised about, I don’t know, 5 or 6 years ago the number of people [00:14:50] whose jobs is standing up. Mhm.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. Yeah definitely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a load of [00:14:55] people.

Riaz Sharif: It’s a, it’s a tiring thing standing up all day isn’t it.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of humans a lot of humans are standing up.

Riaz Sharif: Manual [00:15:00] labour.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Standing up for manual labour is yet another level.

Riaz Sharif: We’re sitting down. Yeah. We’re [00:15:05] sitting in a nice warm room sometimes. Or, you know, a cold room if it’s something. I [00:15:10] know we’re quite fortunate in terms of that.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about. So dentistry abroad.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. So that was, [00:15:15] that came out of um, that wasn’t expecting to go abroad. Um, I had a friend [00:15:20] who had graduated in the previous year and he was off in Budapest. Yeah. So he I reached out [00:15:25] to him saying, listen, I didn’t get into the UK system. What are my options? Where are you right now? And [00:15:30] how’s it going? Um, he was in Romania, actually. So then [00:15:35] I went to Romania. I met him. He showed me the ropes and was like, listen, this is the application process. See [00:15:40] how you get on. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the communistic town. It seemed very right. I just didn’t, you [00:15:45] know, you go to an environment and you. It was in Cluj-Napoca, in Transylvania. Yeah. So I went there [00:15:50] for a little visit, trying to see how it all was. It just seemed very dark and gloomy. Yeah. And I was [00:15:55] like, I can’t spend seven years here. Yeah, this is not for me. Um, I’ve done my own research. I end [00:16:00] up in Budapest, in Hungary. So that was, um. That was different. I didn’t even know. [00:16:05]

Payman Langroudi: The wicked city.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, I didn’t know what it was. I didn’t know what it was about then until I actually went [00:16:10] there. So, you know, um, those, those six years over there were were [00:16:15] amazing. Actually, the first few years were horrible. Yeah. But, um. Yeah. Went over there, done the entrance exam, [00:16:20] got into it, and then the rest was very intense.

Payman Langroudi: The language barrier was was dentistry [00:16:25] in English. The teaching.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. Fortunately it was in English. But the you know, to even enter clinical [00:16:30] years, you had to learn Hungarian. So.

Payman Langroudi: They treat.

Riaz Sharif: Patients. So yeah. So they wouldn’t let the dental students [00:16:35] enter the hospitals unless you knew, you know, partially through the Hungarian. Yeah. So that was a big hurdle initially. And [00:16:40] obviously standing in front of examiners. Every exam was was a was a speaking exam. [00:16:45] So I’d walk into a room like this with like 6 or 7 clinical examiners in front of me, [00:16:50] and they’ll be demanding answers like, what is the answer to this question? What is this? What is this one wrong [00:16:55] answer? You’re out. You’re finished. That was another 20,000 USD the next year.

Payman Langroudi: That wasn’t Hungarian [00:17:00] though, was it? No, no, that was English.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, and I was. Yeah. So they wouldn’t be fearful of failing students. It [00:17:05] was a business operation, you know. Yeah, yeah. You’re the warrior who’s got to fight to the end. So again, it’s [00:17:10] so they.

Payman Langroudi: Push you back a year now you’ve got to pay for.

Riaz Sharif: Another year. Yeah. Yeah. So I had a few I had a couple of those chucked [00:17:15] in there. So that was, that was um that was unexpected. How were you.

Payman Langroudi: Paying for it all?

Riaz Sharif: By training. Yeah. [00:17:20] So I was actually, um, personal training people out there. So I went there, printed off some flyers, [00:17:25] chucked them around the university’s, the vet schools and economic schools of Budapest, dental schools, medical schools. [00:17:30] And I managed to managed to get a lot of clientele.

Payman Langroudi: Had you done that before? Over here? Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: So I’d done my level [00:17:35] three, um, or level four and.

Payman Langroudi: Got yourself customers that way.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah. So I was, [00:17:40] I was advertising on social media, so that got me a lot of people. Um, so that was good. It [00:17:45] helped me finance and get you paid.

Payman Langroudi: The whole.

Riaz Sharif: Course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Which was how much? Like ten, 20 [00:17:50] grand.

Riaz Sharif: It was expensive. Yeah. It was. You’re going into into a lot of money every year. You’re looking around [00:17:55] 10,000, 15,000 a year. So that was all private fees to [00:18:00] you. Wasn’t like taking loans out and stuff. So it was stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Massive achievement. It was stressful. Just a massive achievement. [00:18:05]

Riaz Sharif: Just adapting to the Hungarian culture. You know, speaking to local people, you know, you [00:18:10] know, getting used to the culture. It’s starting.

Payman Langroudi: Starting.

Riaz Sharif: Business.

Payman Langroudi: And doing dental school [00:18:15] in another country.

Riaz Sharif: And running between clinics and a gym, trying to train people and then go back to clinicals, [00:18:20] you know, trying to get my work in there and then run back to the gym again. So I’ll be, [00:18:25] I’ll be. My days were long compared to other students there. You know, who their families would come over and look [00:18:30] after them. And I was on my own, you know. No one knew anything about my background, who I was. I just did my thing. [00:18:35] But after 1 or 2 years, you settle down, you get used to a system. [00:18:40] So, um. Yeah, I was actually married at the time then. So married? Yeah. So my. Yeah. So [00:18:45] I met the person, um, in my previous university that sort [00:18:50] of led to other things. Got married and.

Payman Langroudi: Then your previous university in the.

Riaz Sharif: Uk. Yeah, yeah. In Birmingham. Yeah. So I [00:18:55] sort of tried to sustain that throughout that school. Um, that ended up in my fifth year being a [00:19:00] bit of a fail. So we got divorced. And also that person, David, who was my foster father, died. So [00:19:05] I went through a lot in that last year of, of dentistry. It was [00:19:10] actually the summer before I was supposed to graduate. Um, he died, I got divorced, you know, a lot of things were going [00:19:15] catastrophically wrong, to be honest. Um, and I ended up failing [00:19:20] my last exam before I graduated. Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All in the same.

Riaz Sharif: In the same. Yeah, [00:19:25] yeah. And, you know, he died of cancer. You know, he’s a he’s a lovely man. Two years, two weeks out from, you know, [00:19:30] his diagnosis. He was very late. And yeah, I couldn’t deal with his with what [00:19:35] happened. And it was very emotional for me because obviously he was the person who was my, [00:19:40] my figure who sort of guided me in what I needed him. So losing [00:19:45] him was hard. So obviously at this time you feel alone and you feel very alone. You know, you’re in this [00:19:50] huge country, you’ve failed. You know there’s no money in the bank. Everything’s going wrong. You know, you [00:19:55] hit dark moments and this is what you know, this is going back to what you’re saying again. How do you get out those dark moments [00:20:00] and everything I learned from my childhood was there’s always a plan. [00:20:05] You know, there’s always a way to to get out of those dark places, which is just finding [00:20:10] a solution, just, you know, keep don’t give up on it and just just collect your thoughts and [00:20:15] start again. And there’s always a way. You know, you just don’t give up on the [00:20:20] plan.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Riaz Sharif: Um, no, I mean, I do. It’s [00:20:25] a bit of a tricky one. No, I don’t know. I [00:20:30] believe in I believe in good energy. I believe in, you know, if you’re a good person, [00:20:35] that energy reciprocates around you and you’re reflective of people. But I don’t believe in in [00:20:40] in a higher being. To be honest, no I don’t. I mean, people say, you know, when when in [00:20:45] those dark moments, you, you you look up for a higher faith, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s easier to believe in God. [00:20:50] Yeah, sure. But if you. If you just don’t, you don’t. I mean, that’s that’s the problem. Yeah. [00:20:55] You know what I mean? Yeah. There’s no there’s no point pretending to if it isn’t there.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:21:00] It’s not been my my thing, to be honest, I never really I never led on that. Leant back on [00:21:05] that as a as an option to. But yeah. So obviously I failed. They wouldn’t let me back in. So what [00:21:10] did you do then. I had to collect my credits. They dismissed me from university in Budapest. So all those years, all that, all [00:21:15] that money went to, you know, had nothing to amount for it and got my credits [00:21:20] from my European credit system and then transferred it looked frantically for Frantically for options to salvage [00:21:25] what I lost. I managed to find a place in Slovakia, a small city [00:21:30] outside Bratislava. There was a medical school. They were taking transfer. Students went [00:21:35] there, sat the exam, passed it. They were listening. You can salvage this for four more years. Four [00:21:40] more? Yeah, four more years. Four. You know. Each year is going to cost you about 7,000 [00:21:45] USD again. And I was like, wow, this is this really worth my time [00:21:50] and effort right now? You know, I’m hitting my late 20s now, you know. What have I done? You [00:21:55] know, people around me are settling down, making a life. And I’m still [00:22:00] trying to make a professional career in dentistry. What for? You [00:22:05] know, just what is the reason you got to go back to the drawing board and realise. What am I doing this for [00:22:10] yourself? Your better future. Your betterment of your future. What is it all for? And I went there and [00:22:15] I started it. So it took me multiple years to complete the credits in different years. [00:22:20] Eventually I did do it in my fourth year. I spent four more years in Slovakia doing that. [00:22:25] So my Dental degree total.

Payman Langroudi: I had to learn Slovakia.

Riaz Sharif: I had to learn Slovakian this time. [00:22:30] So, you know, I’m custom in all these, uh, in all these Eastern European languages now. [00:22:35] So, um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been good.

Riaz Sharif: And eventually I graduated [00:22:40] in 2000, 2021.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you feel that day?

Riaz Sharif: Oh, yeah. Well, it was, uh, it [00:22:45] was it was during Covid, actually. So it wasn’t the best of moments, so. Oh, really? [00:22:50] But, um, yeah, I managed to go there, pick up my degree and, uh, yeah, it was it was a good moment. [00:22:55] I felt good, but obviously the next hurdle was coming back home. And that’s when, you know, I realised I. [00:23:00]

Payman Langroudi: Couldn’t go with, you.

Riaz Sharif: Know, no, no one went with me, I did it, I did it on my own, [00:23:05] you see what I mean? So I got the courage to get up and find these places, you know, travel on trains.

Payman Langroudi: No, I mean to graduation [00:23:10] day.

Riaz Sharif: No, no, it was again, it was on your on your own again, [00:23:15] which was, it wasn’t like this nice big ceremonies which, you know, I’d expect after all those years, but [00:23:20] Later on, you know, you sort of get the benefits, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: What a [00:23:25] story, man.

Riaz Sharif: And I came back to the UK. Um, it’s actually hard for an overseas graduate to [00:23:30] get a placement in UK. Dft is not really easily accessible. So I couldn’t walk into my my [00:23:35] vocational training session with anyone or any place like that and finish it and continue. [00:23:40] But I was fortunate I found a mentorship at my dentist in Poole. Yeah. [00:23:45] Um, highly a great company. Recommend them highly. Um, so a good mentor there. [00:23:50] He he guided me a lot in my first year, and so did the company. But, um, [00:23:55] not doing the promo for them right now. But they’re great anyway. They’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? If you if you had [00:24:00] a great experience, why? It was.

Riaz Sharif: Good. Yeah. For overseas graduates or anyone, even from the UK who [00:24:05] did, who qualified over abroad, I’d highly recommend them. But yeah, I’d done. I just hit the floor running. To [00:24:10] be honest, when I came back I was like, I’m not messing around. Um, I’d done my postgraduate [00:24:15] degree diploma with Doctor in Aesthetic and Restorative restore dentistry started [00:24:20] to find my niche. What I liked doing in dentistry. Obviously started with NHS. Now predominantly private [00:24:25] now. So I know what I like to do. Obviously and obviously you realise what [00:24:30] what works for you in dentistry, what you’re passionate about and what you know, where you want to stay, your career. [00:24:35] So obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Um. And what is that?

Riaz Sharif: What is that. Yeah, that’s that was the next sort [00:24:40] of thing I thought. You have to realise yourself where you want to be in dentistry, isn’t it? I guess it’s. Yeah. [00:24:45] Um, branding yourself, you know, I didn’t know how to. I didn’t know where to even start with this. You know, you’re looking at all these social [00:24:50] media accounts of young dentists and all their before and after photos, and you’re thinking, wow, like, this is phenomenal work. How do I get how do I [00:24:55] get that following or that that you know what they’ve got. Yeah. But not in this [00:25:00] like copycat way. Yeah. But obviously I looked at I followed a [00:25:05] lot of dentists over the years growing up in dentistry. So I had my few idols out there who I liked, and [00:25:10] I learned from them, I guess. But, um, yeah, I started this year brand myself quite [00:25:15] a lot in hope to open my own my own practice in the next two years or so. Next year or two. So, [00:25:20] um, yeah, it’s a cliche, I think, that I’d like to break down for dentists. [00:25:25] I think it’s quite a fearful thing representing, you know, showcasing your work.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Riaz Sharif: I think it’s, [00:25:30] you know, you’ve done an amazing composite bonding work. You know, you’ve done the whole thing aligning it, you know, whitening, [00:25:35] whitening and a bit of composite bonding to touch up and also anything else, you know, you’re thinking, wow, this is [00:25:40] this is amazing. But is it worth my time to post it online and see who agrees [00:25:45] with what I’ve done or not? Yeah. And it’s it’s I think again, it’s a fear of being recognised [00:25:50] as a bad dentist or a good dentist or someone who does bad work or good work, but then at [00:25:55] the same time, I feel just do it for yourself. Just if you feel like, just be yourself with it and post [00:26:00] it and see what happens, you know?

Payman Langroudi: And yeah. Do you remember on Mini Smile Maker? We asked the question. [00:26:05] We asked the question, who’s got a dental account? Yeah. And out of the 30 delegates, sometimes like [00:26:10] 4 or 5 of them got a dental notice.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, you know what I think? I think [00:26:15] what’s going to going to happen is in ten years time, we’re going to look back at this period of like [00:26:20] a golden period for, for, for social, that [00:26:25] it might not be the same. You know, I remember I remember when AdWords came out, Google, [00:26:30] you know, it was so cheap. It was, but I just didn’t know how to use them. Yeah. You know, I tried [00:26:35] I did a few things and I remember going to a really cheap one, and then I just forgot about that and moved on to [00:26:40] my next thing. I think it’d be a bit like that. People will. People will regret.

Riaz Sharif: It, isn’t it? And it’s it [00:26:45] is social media driven. Now I feel like this world of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: But if you’re not in it, if you’re not doing [00:26:50] it, you’ll regret it.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s what I’m saying.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. I think the older generation of dentists who [00:26:55] are who are fixed in their ways, but they’re comfortable doing what they’re doing. But I feel like the younger generation [00:27:00] are jumping on this whole bandwagon of, of doing this sort of showcasing [00:27:05] before and after work and, and, you know, and that’s the that’s the point of sale, isn’t it? That [00:27:10] is it. And hopefully drawing new patients.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, I always think about like, why would someone [00:27:15] go to a dentist based on a social media profile? Yeah, sometimes you think, why would [00:27:20] you do that? Why won’t you just ask someone or something? Yeah, I think. But then. But then I touched down in Athens. [00:27:25] Yeah. Where do I find restaurants I want to go to? I go to TikTok.

Riaz Sharif: You want to know who the guy [00:27:30] or the or the woman is doing the best work in town, right? Like, you want to know who that person is. And obviously, [00:27:35] all you need to do is type in a username on social media, and then you find that good dentist locally, [00:27:40] or that person who’s good at what they’re doing, and it’s a CV. It’s an online CV, you know, available [00:27:45] to everyone, isn’t it? Especially patients who who are new to it. And they want to put their trust in someone. [00:27:50] And if they see that you’ve got an amazing amount of Google reviews that you’ve got showcased [00:27:55] on your social media platform or people, you know, people who are great with a bigger following, for example, [00:28:00] it all, it all says a lot of things for that person, doesn’t it? That dentist.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:28:05] would you say to people who say, I had someone here who was saying, listen, making a really good social [00:28:10] media profile? Yeah. And let’s face it, we’re talking about 4 or 5 different [00:28:15] platforms now. Yeah, now it could be.

Riaz Sharif: People using TikTok now making these silly videos. But actually [00:28:20] that’s that’s those TikToks.

Payman Langroudi: The platform, the platform right now where you’re going to get reach [00:28:25] into Tik Tik Tok all the way to X, [00:28:30] all the way to LinkedIn. Yeah, it’s a lot of work to get that right.

Riaz Sharif: It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot [00:28:35] of.

Payman Langroudi: Work to get that right. I’ve got a team of people here. It’s still a lot of work. Yeah, it’s a lot.

Riaz Sharif: Of time as well.

Payman Langroudi: To do it. [00:28:40] What do you think about the dentist who says you should spend that time learning? Yeah. [00:28:45] Spear. Uh, Endo. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, you know, because there’s a lot of time. [00:28:50] Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: It’s a lot of time investing. It’s a lot of time investing in doing that. Yeah. I think you need to learn, [00:28:55] do the courses, upskill and then, you know, implement or [00:29:00] implement the work. If it look if it works, it works. And you know patient’s happy and you’re happy, then represent [00:29:05] your work online. Don’t just post things without confidence, you know. But again it takes time to be confident. I [00:29:10] think as a young a young dentist, especially a few years out. But I don’t think don’t waste time on it, just do it. [00:29:15]

Payman Langroudi: How do you get over the fear of another dentist judging your work, or don’t you? You’re [00:29:20] not interested in what dentists think of your work.

Riaz Sharif: I think for me, in my mind, I’m still that that young guy in London, you [00:29:25] know, who’s who? I was never in my mind supposed to be a dentist or a dental professor. Yeah, and I’ve got this persona, [00:29:30] but I’m very confident now as a, as a as a young professional. Yeah, but I’ve still got that element of me that is still [00:29:35] not, not it’s not to say I’m not confident, but I’m, I’m very it’s kept it’s kept me very [00:29:40] humble in thinking, you know what? I’m not the best. I don’t, you know, I’m a very mediocre dentist in my mind. But [00:29:45] I know that I’m good and capable of doing good work. And if my patients leave the room happy with a smile, then [00:29:50] you know what? Why not showcase what I’ve done? Because they’ve left happy, and I’m gonna leave happy that day. [00:29:55] And I want to, I want to, I want to tell the people about this. I want to tell the people who follow my my platform. [00:30:00]

Payman Langroudi: Aren’t you scared that you say something wrong for the sake of the argument?

Riaz Sharif: Like to my patients [00:30:05] or.

Payman Langroudi: To on your.

Riaz Sharif: Social? No, I mean, I mean, yeah, there’s always, like you said, these, these big words in [00:30:10] dentistry. You mentioned the right word or, you know, the term, the dental terminologies that a lot of you know, [00:30:15] senior dentists will pick on. I worry about it even or even the stages that you’ve done or you missed that stage. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: I worry about it in this board. I worry about it in this board. Just before you sat on that chair, there was a consultant [00:30:25] orthodontist sitting there. I don’t know what to say to her.

Riaz Sharif: I don’t get in Anchorage. [00:30:30] You know, I like to learn from people. Payman. So if I’m sitting opposite someone who is [00:30:35] advanced and somewhere I would like to be, it’s not that I want to be them. I would like to learn what who [00:30:40] they are and what they’ve done and what they’ve accomplished and take their steps and, you know, or their or their path, [00:30:45] because I believe that I can become like that one day. So it’s not I don’t feel intimidated [00:30:50] by someone like that. I like to learn.

Payman Langroudi: From the boxing helps. Right.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah. Go [00:30:55] back to that. Exactly. Watching your. Watching a huge opponent opposite you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot scarier.

Riaz Sharif: About to knock [00:31:00] you out cold. But maybe. But then again, you don’t. You don’t. If you program yourself not to be [00:31:05] scared or intimidated, then you’re not going to be. It’s all a false pretence of fear, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, it’s fear. [00:31:10] It doesn’t exist for me. It’s more just go forward and drive forward and that’s it and learn. [00:31:15] And this is where mentoring comes in. You know that young dentists should be mentored. Yeah. You know, either, you know, [00:31:20] instead of wasting your first year’s income or first few year’s income on materialistic things, [00:31:25] just invest it into your career, your skills, you know, pay for a lovely course that is two [00:31:30] days or even a year long diploma. Do it, you know? And like you said, I think the.

Payman Langroudi: First 4 or 5 years, you’ve got to look [00:31:35] at all of that as education.

Riaz Sharif: It’s just recycled back into your career, isn’t it? But they don’t teach you these things in dental school especially. [00:31:40] Overseas dental school. And it all comes down to communication to like, communicate with your patients. For me, [00:31:45] like I was Hungarian lecturers and teachers, they don’t know how to communicate. Yeah, [00:31:50] yeah. How? You know the dialogue. It’s a script, isn’t it? And you only learn that when you’re actually in practice, [00:31:55] you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: I think all the jobs that you did. Yeah. Massively helped [00:32:00] massively.

Riaz Sharif: You know, being in retail, being, you know, facing these high profile people who want to buy [00:32:05] Mercedes Benz. And I was just sitting there polishing the car, you know, and speaking to them. And, you know, [00:32:10] I believe also having doing examinations abroad and being intimidated, not intimidated, [00:32:15] but being feeling threatened by these highly advanced professors, you know, [00:32:20] of prosthodontics or endodontics and all throwing, you know, maxillofacial and throwing questions [00:32:25] at me just so I can pass my exams and go on to the next exam. That made me confident as a person, too, [00:32:30] I bet. So I can now sit in front of patients and and and be myself and be calm [00:32:35] and guide them through what I think is best for them, and hopefully they’ll leave happy with the options I give [00:32:40] them and the work that I provide to. So yeah, these are things that the skills that you learn along the way, aren’t they? [00:32:45] Yeah. But again, there’s no there’s no module for that in in schools or or out there. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: So how many days are you working. Are you working only [00:32:55] in that one practice.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah at the moment I was working there for now. So I’m working about four days [00:33:00] a week there. Yeah. Um, yeah, it’s going good. I’ve sort of picked. I’m trying [00:33:05] to pick my patient case as well. You know, I do love these small makeover cases to say [00:33:10] so. Um, yeah. Stepping into I want to focus more on orthodontics. [00:33:15] And obviously occlusion is the main, the main thing, isn’t it? Why [00:33:20] do these fancy cases when things will fail?

Payman Langroudi: Um, what are you planning to do for your author from [00:33:25] study wise? What are you going to do?

Riaz Sharif: Well, in terms of the what to. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: How to learn.

Riaz Sharif: Ortho, I’m still looking for I’ve done my research, but that’s my next sort [00:33:35] of thing. We touched lightly on it, on my next course, on his diploma.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: So, [00:33:40] you know, I know the the functional basis of orthodontics. And obviously this is important [00:33:45] for young dentists to know as well. You know, there’s no point in fitting crowns and doing these composite bond [00:33:50] cases or veneers. And it’s going to be chipped off or worn away in about two, three, [00:33:55] four years, isn’t it? And you know, if you don’t know, you know, correcting the alignment and buy it and it [00:34:00] all comes down to functional.

Payman Langroudi: So the thing is the thing is here that back in my day, when I was your age, if you [00:34:05] if your stated goal was to be a cosmetic dentist, you [00:34:10] had to learn veneer preps. Yeah. That was that was the most important thing [00:34:15] to learn. Back in my day, no one used to go for ortho because it was train tracks and [00:34:20] a line. Bleach bond didn’t exist until Tiff came along. And [00:34:25] he was.

Riaz Sharif: He pioneered it, didn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, he was one of my peers, so we used to talk about it. He used to say, [00:34:30] oh, these veneer cases you do. Actually, I remember having this conversation with Tiffany. He said, oh, well, you [00:34:35] can veneer the top teeth, but veneering the bottom teeth is much harder, so why not? Why not align those ones? [00:34:40]

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but but now you can’t be a cosmetic dentist [00:34:45] and not understand quite a lot about aligning.

Riaz Sharif: It’s like pre ortho work [00:34:50] before you do the restorative work. Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: You gotta understand alignment to some extent. [00:34:55]

Riaz Sharif: Like you said before jumping into those fancy cases, you need to learn, like you said, before you start showcasing your [00:35:00] work you need to you need to know the functional bases of dentistry in terms of that.

Payman Langroudi: So this is my question on the aligning [00:35:05] front. Yeah, I would, I would, I would learn if it was me [00:35:10] I would try and learn more.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Did a ortho MSC [00:35:15] that they didn’t particularly like very much. Yeah. Um, or he didn’t think it helped him very [00:35:20] much, you know. But but then the next person will do one of those year long courses. Yeah. [00:35:25] Yeah, IAS courses maybe.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or there’s, there’s mentoring Millie [00:35:30] Millie’s doing a mentoring thing and Millie Morrison, do you know, um, or there’s a brilliant [00:35:35] Invisalign case by the two, um, brothers. Uh.

Riaz Sharif: There’s [00:35:40] a lot out there, isn’t it? Yeah, there’s a lot of options out there in terms of ortho courses, but yeah, it’s important [00:35:45] to grip the the idea of it. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, before you advance [00:35:50] on these big, complex cases and full mouth rehabilitation stuff and all this, you know, more advanced stuff. [00:35:55] But, yeah, it’s it’s a slow development, isn’t it? As a young dentist, you’ve got You got to take it slowly. [00:36:00] Yeah, yeah. And and see where it leads to. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Why do you like. Why [00:36:05] do you like aesthetic dentistry? What’s the thing about it?

Riaz Sharif: I think it’s the reward of seeing [00:36:10] the patient’s reaction and the feel that it gives you as a dentist, I think. I think that goes [00:36:15] you only feel that once you produce a good case and that patient, you know, you give the patient a mirror. You [00:36:20] all that time you’ve invested into that treatment planning and you know, all those months of work and [00:36:25] the final outcome that moment is for me is why I love dentistry. It’s for [00:36:30] me. It makes me feel, after all of the hard work and years of working as studying as dentist, it makes me feel [00:36:35] fulfilled and happy. And actually it puts all the financial incentive behind me and think, you know what? That person [00:36:40] that that reaction you get is, is unmatched for me. [00:36:45] And I’ve always been a person who loves to help people, you know, and it’s always I’ve always I still do. I’m a [00:36:50] very generous man. I like to help and provide for people and give the best advice I [00:36:55] can. You know what? It’s weird because that person could have been a very selfish little boy growing [00:37:00] up, you know, not that that little person in London. But then I’ve I’ve [00:37:05] done a whole U-turn and actually I want to get back and dentistry for me is my, my area right now for that. [00:37:10] And hopefully in the future I’ll have other options and, and areas I can help people [00:37:15] too, for sure. You know, and you know, I’ve a motivating and lifting people up myself [00:37:20] when they were younger. And yeah, hopefully I’ll get those platforms soon. But [00:37:25] yeah, hopefully the new year. We’ll see where it goes. You know it’d be nice.

Payman Langroudi: So have [00:37:30] you done anything to reach out to kids in foster care yet? Have you got round to that yet? [00:37:35]

Riaz Sharif: No, it’s more, to be honest, what it was Payman telling my story initially for me [00:37:40] was, um, was tough. It’s a very personal story. And I think, like I said to you, even stepping [00:37:45] onto, you know, stepping out and highlighting your story to people you don’t know [00:37:50] who actually turn around and say, well, that was that’s a very interesting story. Well done, mate. And, you [00:37:55] know, you you feel. You feel vulnerable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Riaz Sharif: You know, it’s not easy [00:38:00] to tell your own personal story, but I think your story. My story, actually, I’ve learned it. It [00:38:05] can. It can help a lot of people. And I didn’t realise that back in when you’re living it, you feel like [00:38:10] it’s horrible. It’s fearful, it’s traumatic, it’s tiring, and it’s it’s a very hard life [00:38:15] at the time and it’s emotionally sad. But I feel those if you collect it [00:38:20] all and you can, you know, it can actually help people. And again, it goes back to what I’m saying as well. I [00:38:25] can use it to help people somehow, but I will find a way to do it. Yeah. So [00:38:30] for me doing that lately has been a big thing, you know, um, and also, you know, even [00:38:35] the success I’ve had this year, I’ve won. Well, I was a finalist for like, the private dentistry awards and [00:38:40] the dental awards. So both of them was quite that was a big surprise for me. So two and [00:38:45] a half years out getting that award.

Payman Langroudi: What did you did you like see it and think [00:38:50] I’m going to apply for that.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, I saw it. I mean I’ve seen these awards going on for years in years in dentistry. It’s one of those [00:38:55] things that, you know, you think, wow, I wish I could do that. I wish I could turn up to event one day. I wish I could be part of that [00:39:00] crowd. And then again, you feel you don’t feel like you’re you don’t feel like you belong there. You [00:39:05] know, putting on a suit and actually just turning up there and being like, well, I’m part of this situation and I’ve [00:39:10] worked hard to get here. And if you don’t win, at least you’re recognised as something you know. And [00:39:15] it was nice to be recognised this year and I did. It was it was good. I felt like it lifted me. [00:39:20] My self esteem as a young dentist too. I think, you know, applying for awards is [00:39:25] important. You know, obviously you have to work hard to get those, don’t you? [00:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you know, there’s there’s a lot of people who don’t like awards as well.

Riaz Sharif: It’s not for everyone, [00:39:35] but it’s it’s, um, it was a surprise for me.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s lovely for you to be, like. To be getting [00:39:40] it because we hear the negative side of awards a lot. Yeah. People bang on about them. [00:39:45] Yeah. And then. And then you saying that it’s actually something that’s really helped you. It’s like a wonderful thing.

Riaz Sharif: Like you said, it can be a negative, [00:39:50] but people there are there is probably a cons about it, but I think the pros are, you [00:39:55] know, it does give someone confidence, confidence in thinking that, you know what, at least [00:40:00] you know you’re doing something good. At least, you know, take me through it.

Payman Langroudi: You saw the [00:40:05] award. You thought, I’m going to go for this. What did you do then? Read what? Yeah, read the category.

Riaz Sharif: The criteria.

Payman Langroudi: Read which [00:40:10] category?

Riaz Sharif: It was young. The best. Yeah. Young. The best young dentist award. Okay, so I thought, [00:40:15] you know what? Why not?

Payman Langroudi: So it said, tell us about your charity. Your this your that all [00:40:20] these different things go on. I don’t know what.

Riaz Sharif: It was more about. You know, what charity work you’ve done, your clinical cases. [00:40:25] Um, your story as well. Oh. You know, and I didn’t think I even hit the criteria [00:40:30] in half of them. You know, you think it’s nothing. It’s something you just. You just put it together and [00:40:35] send it out and see how it goes. Why not? You got nothing to lose. And that [00:40:40] was that was one surprise I had this year. So that was cool.

Payman Langroudi: But how long did you work on it?

Riaz Sharif: Uh, [00:40:45] it was a collection.

Payman Langroudi: Like a day or a week.

Riaz Sharif: It’s not like you worked on it for a long time. [00:40:50] You You’ve collected these things for a long time. They’re just buried anyway. Yeah. So, you know, your story [00:40:55] is going years back. You know, you collected this. You know, you got that that evidence from ten years ago. [00:41:00] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s a collection of different things that amount to that, that recognition. But yeah, [00:41:05] it’s the point is.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, there are some people who actually hire PR companies to do their awards. Do [00:41:10] they? Yeah. Um, not not young dentists, I don’t think, but, you know, practices.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:41:15] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a whole industry of its own. Yeah, yeah. Which is fine, by the way. By the way, there’s [00:41:20] nothing in the rules that says you can’t do that. Yeah, but did you go to the party in the Grosvenor House? Yeah I [00:41:25] did.

Riaz Sharif: What a party it was. It was, it was nice. It was, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: I take my if Tim and Craig [00:41:30] are listening, I take my hat off. That that really did feel like the Oscars [00:41:35] of dentistry.

Riaz Sharif: Definitely something special, wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I used to laugh about that. They used to call it Oscars of Dentistry [00:41:40] years ago. And I think this is not the Oscars, right? This is not what the Oscars are like.

Riaz Sharif: Put on an outfit, [00:41:45] put the tuxedo.

Payman Langroudi: Feels like it. It’s like.

Riaz Sharif: How many people were there? Oh, God. It good. It was amazing, wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It was [00:41:50] like a thousand people. I mean.

Riaz Sharif: I’ve never been to something like that before. So for me to turn up and be part of that, it was great. You know, it’s, [00:41:55] um, it was nice to be there, but. Yeah, but yeah, it’s again, it’s like a [00:42:00] marketing thing though, isn’t it? You know, and for young dentists, it is a cool little thing to add to your, your marketing [00:42:05] strategy to say.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but listen, I’m all I’m all for this. Yeah. And you [00:42:10] were saying before about it’s not just.

Riaz Sharif: About the awards, it’s about your own yourself.

Payman Langroudi: But you were saying before something I really like [00:42:15] to hear, um, some of our colleagues are interested in in words like marketing, but [00:42:20] but I like the idea of, uh, an associate [00:42:25] thinking of themselves as a mini business within the big business. [00:42:30] It’s something you told me and. And I really like that. I think it’s [00:42:35] the best training to become a principal is to act like you own the business and like. [00:42:40]

Riaz Sharif: You own it. I mean, there’s no reason. There’s no way to say that you can’t operate using your own branding [00:42:45] system within the corporate. Yeah. And and actually people come into my room now and they, they feel every person [00:42:50] who walks into my room, I’ve sort of made it very bespoke. So people come in, they can sit down, they can talk to me about [00:42:55] what they want, their problems. You know, what they’re concerned about, what they would like improving. And actually it’s a nice, comfortable setting. [00:43:00] You know, I’ve got my own logo, I’ve got my own sort of brand that I like to hopefully open as a practice in the [00:43:05] future. But you’ve got to start now, right? There’s no point. You’ve got to pave the way for it to happen. And [00:43:10] rather than, you know, just visualising it and things never falling, but like, like you said, [00:43:15] yeah, you you need to operate as a business within the business. And I think you’ve got to start with baby steps [00:43:20] and give the patient experience and practice with it. You know this from the moment they enter the room [00:43:25] to when they leave with that smile that they wanted. And that’s what I love doing.

Payman Langroudi: You find it frustrating, [00:43:30] though, that, you know, like especially in a corporate where you might want, I don’t [00:43:35] know, whatever picture on the wall or whatever. Yeah. Music playing and it’s [00:43:40] a corporate and you can’t do that. Does that frustrate.

Riaz Sharif: The hell out of my room is a bit different. So I’ve sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, [00:43:45] I mean, I mean, yeah, hands down to my dentist. It’s been running into my room. It’s very sort [00:43:50] of just. You wouldn’t think that you’re in the, you know, the my dentist corp, you know, not not not I’m trying [00:43:55] to overtake it, but but it’s but it’s it’s people come in all my patients [00:44:00] every day. Just compliment it. They’re like this feels very relaxed and it’s a nice setting and. Yeah. Go [00:44:05] on. What do you do? What do you.

Payman Langroudi: Do? What do you do? Spill the beans.

Riaz Sharif: Well, you know, I put my mirrors up. I put my little you know, [00:44:10] I’ve done this and I put the lovely comfortable leather chairs out, and it’s really. Yeah. It’s nice. You [00:44:15] know, I put it’s very nice. It’s comfortable, you know, it’s people. Yeah. It’s [00:44:20] good.

Payman Langroudi: The brand police are going to be on you soon. Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah I know right. No. Yeah. No. [00:44:25] So as long as you generate money for them right. It’s all good. They’ll be happy till the end. So it’s all right [00:44:30] now. Eventually I do want to make, you know, move out next year and get my own sort of either a Scott practice [00:44:35] or buy something and then go.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no hurry, though. But, you know, you like.

Riaz Sharif: Like like I said, I’m [00:44:40] not I’m not in a rush. So I’m trying to still upskill.

Payman Langroudi: Have to be next year. I [00:44:45] would say don’t forget things like working capital. Yeah, the amount of money you need to just [00:44:50] keep alive in a squat practice a whole year of money. And that’s money, you know, that [00:44:55] costs. Um, so don’t don’t. I wouldn’t rush in. Yeah, yeah. And this, you know, you might [00:45:00] think you spent a bit longer getting to become a dentist than than than how many years was it in total? [00:45:05] So seven.

Riaz Sharif: Seven plus it was like ten. Yeah, it was a lot of years. It was probably.

Payman Langroudi: But. But you’re [00:45:10] still. You’re young man.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you? 34 now. But you can sit on your hands. [00:45:15] Sit on your hands for another three years. Do nothing. Yeah. And you’ll still be 37. It’s nothing.

Riaz Sharif: Like I said, it’s it’s [00:45:20] it’s this constant wanting to.

Payman Langroudi: Go for it, man. Go for it. But I’m just saying don’t feel that [00:45:25] because you spent a bit longer becoming a dentist, you’re now behind. Which is like ridiculous, [00:45:30] ridiculous notions of childhood. When you’re young, you think, oh, I want to be the first whatever [00:45:35] to do whatever. There’s no there’s no prize for being first in this situation. Yeah. [00:45:40]

Riaz Sharif: How long was it until you open your own company. Was it a while because you were.

Payman Langroudi: You were 28. [00:45:45] I was 28. Were you when you started enlightened?

Riaz Sharif: Was that soon after you were a dentist or five years after? [00:45:50] Five years after? Yeah. Good. That’s a big jump, wasn’t it, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Huge. Huge and terrible. Terrible. [00:45:55] First 5 or 6 years.

Riaz Sharif: So was it a struggle to sort of get your feet on the ground?

Payman Langroudi: Losing [00:46:00] loads of money, begging and borrowing.

Riaz Sharif: A lot of market competitors. Was it I guess in was it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:46:05] expensive. It’s expensive. Trying to do what we did was expensive. Um, [00:46:10] we didn’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Riaz Sharif: You can only do it, you know, once you’re in it, right? I don’t know what you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Doing [00:46:15] at all. Yeah. Um, but, you know, businesses do business. Real businesses take four [00:46:20] years to to not all, but, you know, generally take 3 or 4 years to go into profit. [00:46:25] Yeah. Dental businesses tend to go quicker. Yeah. But I’m still saying there is still a year of pain, [00:46:30] massive pain that you have to put up with if you’re going to do a squat practice. Yeah. And that pain can be [00:46:35] listen, either your squat practice ain’t going to be as beautiful as you thought it would be, or [00:46:40] because you because you haven’t got the money to make it that, or you make it as beautiful as you thought it was going to be. And [00:46:45] now you can only you’ve only got runway for three months before you’re going to go bust. Which does not make sense. [00:46:50] Right. You know, like.

Riaz Sharif: Don’t, don’t, don’t run before you can walk.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:46:55] yeah yeah. But listen man.

Riaz Sharif: You got to.

Payman Langroudi: Take it slowly. I’ve got a friend. He [00:47:00] qualified and opened his practice. There’s a guy coming on this podcast soon who’s in [00:47:05] the fourth year of dental school, and he owns a practice that’s amazing. [00:47:10] Um, and, you know, he had his own business before going to dental school and all of this. That would be an interesting [00:47:15] one. But but it’s not a competition. It’s not.

Riaz Sharif: It’s you got to go at your own pace, haven’t you? You know, like you said, you’re [00:47:20] only competing against yourself and you know, it’s your own. It’s your own way, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s [00:47:25] your own. It’s your own route. Just take it as slow as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the [00:47:30] darker part. I think you’ve had some dark parts.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, we’ve we’ve touched on a few places.

Payman Langroudi: The mistakes. [00:47:35] We like to talk about mistakes. Yeah. On this pod. Okay. So we can learn from each from each other’s mistakes. Yeah, [00:47:40] absolutely. What comes to mind when I say clinical mistakes? What have you gotten up to?

Riaz Sharif: I think we’ve [00:47:45] all we’re all, um, you know, we’re all prone to make mistakes. When we first entered the dental scene, [00:47:50] especially when we come to dental school. We’re sitting there with our first few patients the first few weeks or months. Um, [00:47:55] mine. I’ve had a few. You know, one of them that comes to mind would be, for [00:48:00] example, you know, restoring a back teeth molar. You know, I think I had one situation [00:48:05] where, you know, I remember I was very worried about what it all happened. You know, you’re polishing [00:48:10] the back tooth with a flexi disc. You know who does that now? You know, it’s not something that, you know when [00:48:15] you’re rushing and you’re panicking as a.

Payman Langroudi: Distal of the seventh. Yeah, yeah. You start.

Riaz Sharif: You [00:48:20] cut something. Yeah. I cut the buckle cheek and obviously, you know, I think, wow, what [00:48:25] a silly mistake. You got that cold chill run down your back and you start to freeze up. Yeah, well, [00:48:30] it’s 7 p.m. on a Tuesday night, and there’s no other clinicians. One clinician around somewhere. [00:48:35] Was there a lot of blood? Yeah, there was blood. The buccal fat was was cheek fat was [00:48:40] coming out and my nurse was staring at me like, what? She doesn’t know what to do. And I’m like, well, this is not [00:48:45] what they taught me in dental school to figure out, you know? What did you do? The patients, you know, [00:48:50] you need to obviously, this is where you learn, isn’t it? How to communicate and how to keep yourself and the patient [00:48:55] relaxed. So obviously, luckily, I had a dentist on site. He came in [00:49:00] and he managed to help me calm and suture it, sutured the cheek up and obviously [00:49:05] notify the patient what’s happened. You know, I’m I’m startled and alarmed and I’m thinking, well, I’m going [00:49:10] to get into huge complaint situation in the next few days. And, you know, the way I handled it and [00:49:15] the way he taught me to handle it in that moment was essential. You know, we we calmed the patient down. [00:49:20] There was all that post advice about what to do in case that happens. And actually that defused [00:49:25] the whole situation in the end. But I learned a lot. Is this silly stuff like that? You know, it’s not silly. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, do you know, you know, she’s she’s Basil Mizrahi’s [00:49:35] associate, said that’s the top practice in London, right? Yeah. And she [00:49:40] made the exact same mistake. Really? So she was polishing.

Riaz Sharif: The only one.

Payman Langroudi: Polishing the back of a buckle [00:49:45] of a seven.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. You think you think it’s the best option at the time? You think you grab it quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine. [00:49:50] Imagine how like you’re good. You’re being. Yeah. By trying to polish the [00:49:55] distal side of a do on a seven.

Riaz Sharif: Who does that though. I wouldn’t, [00:50:00] I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t think twice about doing that right now. You know, it’s the last thing I’m really grabbing in the surgery. [00:50:05] But you know, you look back.

Payman Langroudi: And I like that one. And it’s an important one. And everyone who does Polish tobacco a [00:50:10] seven should pay attention to that. We’ve all learned from that. Yeah, but it went well. Yeah. [00:50:15] As in the patient took it well.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You got one where the patient took it badly. Uh, yeah. [00:50:20]

Riaz Sharif: I’ve dropped the wrong. I’ve grabbed a faucet and nearly taken out the wrong tooth because I read the clinical notes wrong. So that was [00:50:25] a that was that could say that again. I’ve read the clinical notes wrong. Yeah. And I’ve grabbed the forceps and I’m about to take [00:50:30] out the wrong tooth and didn’t. And you know, the patient noticed. No luck. Yeah. No. I luckily thought [00:50:35] twice about the situation and obviously you know, but then obviously now that’s what I do. It’s helped me in my modern day dentistry [00:50:40] too. So, you know, double or triple clarifying what I’m doing, you know, is it a right tooth? Is it a right, [00:50:45] you know, restoration? Is it the right material doing the right thing? And yeah, I [00:50:50] stopped at the moment and I did I did get worried.

Payman Langroudi: And obviously the whole left right thing, [00:50:55] the whole left right thing must happen hundreds of times a day in the world. You know, it depends. [00:51:00] Somewhere, somewhere in the world right now, 100 people have done the left. Right.

Riaz Sharif: I think it depends on your mind. As dentists, we [00:51:05] always expect to be like on the ball and sharp. But then we have our own issues going on in our life, right? [00:51:10] Our home life, our personal life, the way we feel. We might not feel optimal that day, and it does affect [00:51:15] the way we operate in clinic, you know, in that setting. So, you know, obviously we have to [00:51:20] be on the ball. We, you know, we’ve got someone’s health in our hands. So it’s hard [00:51:25] some days. But you need to be alert. And you also you learn from lessons don’t you. So yeah, [00:51:30] that was another one. But there’s been a few.

Payman Langroudi: Anything would go badly. That that won’t go badly. [00:51:35] Did the patient notice?

Riaz Sharif: And the patient did notice that I gave the anaesthesia in the wrong, in the wrong tooth for.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:51:40] wrong.

Riaz Sharif: Wrong. But they only stopped. They they actually stopped me after I, after I [00:51:45] stopped myself. And I was like, excuse me? Like, why did you give the anaesthesia over there? Like, so.

Payman Langroudi: What did you [00:51:50] say then.

Riaz Sharif: I said to him, you know what? I said, I’m sorry. Um, I read, I read the clinical notes incorrectly. Um, [00:51:55] I apologise for that. You will feel numb for a few hours on that side. Also, would you [00:52:00] like to continue or today? Or would you like to, um. Are you happy for me to, you know. Yeah, [00:52:05] exactly. And obviously putting it into that sort of speech and that calmness as well and that [00:52:10] the options are in place. You know, normally they’re going to be like, you know what, it’s okay. Just go ahead [00:52:15] and do what you had to do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So is that how it went.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. And actually it was okay. [00:52:20] And I feel like that that’s also a good way of diffusing a lot of possible complaints. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, do I accept [00:52:25] that that went well as well.

Riaz Sharif: That went.

Payman Langroudi: Well. What about one that went badly.

Riaz Sharif: Went really badly. [00:52:30] Oh there was one really badly.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have [00:52:35] to be like sometimes. It’s not the error. That’s the bad error. The worst. The reaction.

Riaz Sharif: That’s the the worst [00:52:40] one was probably a perforated root canal.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve done that.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. And you [00:52:45] know, I’ve, I it was a you know, it was a basic it was a molar upper left six. [00:52:50] Um, first few canals weren’t okay. I think one of them perforated straight into [00:52:55] the bone. Obviously you’re looking at the post-operative radiograph.

Payman Langroudi: Look good on the.

Riaz Sharif: X-ray, and you’re thinking, well, you know, you’re thinking [00:53:00] you’re feeling proud of yourself. You know. You know, everything went great. Until then, you’re looking at it and [00:53:05] thinking the nurse is downstairs generating the x ray. You think you’re right? Cool. You know, we’re gonna we’re gonna [00:53:10] complete this plan right now. The patient’s happy, you know, they’re they’re up in their chair. You’re [00:53:15] about to, you know, finish off with a crown or a or a final restoration and it comes [00:53:20] out that it’s gone straight into the bone.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough.

Riaz Sharif: And I’m sitting there. My heart’s beating [00:53:25] ten times more than it should do, you know. And I’m. And I got to give the news to the patient [00:53:30] about this perforation.

Payman Langroudi: Probably lost his teeth.

Riaz Sharif: And exactly. And that’s actually the opposite [00:53:35] of what they actually came in for, you know. And you have to break the news and say, listen, this is a it’s an [00:53:40] inconvenience. But what has happened shouldn’t have happened. But it either. The options are this, this, [00:53:45] this.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s really interesting because we just jump to blame all [00:53:50] the time here. Like it’s in our nature to jump to blame. So if you I’ve had a situation [00:53:55] where in that situation the it happened to me in dental [00:54:00] school that the teacher just came over and said to the patient, sorry, this tooth [00:54:05] wasn’t saveable. Yeah. Yeah. End of that was the end of the patient. And the patient went, yeah, [00:54:10] there it is. Yeah, yeah. But but you know, that tooth wasn’t saveable. Yeah. By me [00:54:15] kind of question. Yeah. And it was my fault. Is this whole different story to that tooth [00:54:20] wasn’t saveable. Yeah, but but that tooth wasn’t saveable. Yeah. In this room, I.

Riaz Sharif: Think I think [00:54:25] I think it’s also what you what you program in a programming a patient before you even do the procedure. So you’re saying, [00:54:30] like you said to them, that that tooth is it could be saved and it could be saved with a root canal. And also [00:54:35] there’s an option that, you know, is extraction. And obviously with the perforated canal now, [00:54:40] you know, it looks like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the thing is though, the most important thing [00:54:45] they do drum it into us, but it’s worth repeating. The most important thing is to be honest [00:54:50] in that situation, not only from that’s what the patient deserves, but but also [00:54:55] if it goes tits up. Yeah, dishonesty in that situation is the one that really kills. [00:55:00]

Riaz Sharif: They can turn around and say to you, you didn’t say that. You lied.

Payman Langroudi: I mean that that would cause [00:55:05] a real situation.

Riaz Sharif: That will lead to an official complaint and obviously sleepless nights [00:55:10] and all the rest of it.

Payman Langroudi: But also the complaint being upheld. Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s my point.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s [00:55:15] about being honest with your faults as well and then taking responsibility isn’t it as well. You know you hope [00:55:20] that they don’t continue these faults. You know you hope to learn from them if you you know if you can. But mostly [00:55:25] you know, if you’re if you’re on the ball, you do.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened in this case?

Riaz Sharif: Um, I referred him to a specialist. We [00:55:30] got a root canal specialist at work in our. In our practice, fortunately. So I said to him, you know, we’ll [00:55:35] get you booked in for a consultation with him to review the fault. Yeah. Um, and see what [00:55:40] he recommends. And obviously, you briefed them that it could obviously lead to an extraction, the worst case scenario. Or [00:55:45] it could be that he takes it out. And what happened? He actually corrected it. So. Yeah. Who [00:55:50] paid? Uh, I paid.

Payman Langroudi: You paid? Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: I’ll compensate the paid, but but that’s my responsibility, [00:55:55] you know, like, you know, if I, if I see my my faults, you take, you step up and [00:56:00] you take responsibility, don’t you? Well done, man. But, um, I’m not going to put the blame on anyone else, even [00:56:05] even outside of dentistry. If I make a problem outside of my in my life, I’ll step up and take the blame and fix it. [00:56:10] And that’s that’s part of being responsible person, isn’t it? I love that. Yeah. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: What if we fast forwarded five years from [00:56:20] today? Yeah. Where do you see yourself? Both. Both professionally and, [00:56:25] you know, domestically. What are you looking for five years from today?

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:56:30] It’s. Yeah. Um, I see myself in a more professional, [00:56:35] you know, my skills will be a lot more higher. So I [00:56:40] like to upskill more. And obviously, basically, I don’t know, [00:56:45] narrowing on what I like to do more. So pick, you know, pick the niche of dentistry that I like to do, but [00:56:50] obviously really become an expert in it and deliver with 1,000% confidence [00:56:55] that sort of work. But, you know, like you said, in dentistry, you want to you want to be an all rounder. You need to [00:57:00] be a good GDP, don’t you? You need to know your basics. And obviously, you [00:57:05] know, you want to be a better dentist year by year, don’t you? You know, you don’t want to be stagnant and just [00:57:10] sitting around. You want to be better and better even in, you know, in your in your career, life and and everything [00:57:15] else. But yeah, business wise, I like to have my own practice. Or if it was to do that or even, [00:57:20] like I said to you, this platform where I can not teach, but probably [00:57:25] create a course to say that can [00:57:30] encourage or even teach people how to communicate initially in their first few [00:57:35] years and basically take take my own sort of experiences [00:57:40] and then, you know, teach it on a day, day course or something like that and [00:57:45] see where that leads to see, you know, a little steps. I’m not going to sit there and create a huge ten day [00:57:50] plan, you know, in terms of teaching. But I like to do that. I believe that I got I believe I’m [00:57:55] good at speaking and I got a lot to give to people. So I like to have that platform soon open up to me [00:58:00] if I don’t create myself. So yeah, from a motivational aspect, I [00:58:05] like that. Yeah. And I think, you know, vulnerable young dentists are vulnerable. You [00:58:10] know, they’re worried because we all were I was a few years ago, I didn’t know what to do. But having [00:58:15] someone who can, you know, who can relate to who’s been through it, [00:58:20] Um, I believe it’s good.

Payman Langroudi: I think the anxiety level in young dentists is higher than it [00:58:25] was in our day. Yeah it is. They’ve drummed it into you guys that you’re going to get sued.

Riaz Sharif: It’s [00:58:30] worrying. And I think, you know, you need to learn mechanisms to to speak to people [00:58:35] calmly to to talk to yourself calmly to, to relax your mind, you know, to also encourage [00:58:40] yourself to if you do a fault, don’t worry about it. There’s always options to get better and not take [00:58:45] it to heart. And all this comes down to motivational speaking and I would love [00:58:50] to get into that. Obviously I’d like to develop it as well in the next five years too, so I’m not that’s [00:58:55] what I that’s what I aim to do. Um, you know, as well as continuing dentistry too. [00:59:00]

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. And you’re sort of you’ve been involved in [00:59:05] gyms and all sorts of. Yeah. From your sort of dream practice. [00:59:10] What would that look like?

Riaz Sharif: It would be, yeah. It’s like, yeah, fancy, you [00:59:15] know, nice, beautiful environment. People come in and they feel it’s a luxury place, you know, [00:59:20] and they feel at home in it. They don’t feel intimidated by these big white walls. And this smell, the smell of the [00:59:25] practice. I want it to be, you know, welcoming, calm, peaceful and homely and [00:59:30] also enjoyable. So I think dentistry should be enjoyable. Not for the dentist also, but for the [00:59:35] patient. You know, they need to come in and have that fun talk with.

Payman Langroudi: I get you, I get you. Yeah. But what was [00:59:40] the last time you had any dental treatment?

Riaz Sharif: Uh, not not long ago. Probably a few years ago. [00:59:45]

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyable is a big word.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, because I didn’t enjoy it. I remember not enjoyable. I don’t remember ever walking [00:59:50] into a practice or. Or I was actually in hospital last week, and I was feared, I feared, I feared every moment of it. You [00:59:55] know, I had a burst appendix last week. I’m sorry. So yeah, I remember sitting in that hospital fearing for my [01:00:00] life, you know, in a dark room when it all goes dark and you think, wow, this is nothing [01:00:05] really else matters other than me sitting in this cold ward right now with my, you know, burst appendix. And he got sepsis. [01:00:10] I’m sorry. So, you know, it’s it’s it’s different, isn’t it? In a dental [01:00:15] practice, it can be enjoyable. And I believe that believe that, you know, more.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyable is a big word [01:00:20] that I get you because it’s not enjoyable. So make as enjoyable as possible.

Riaz Sharif: What I think [01:00:25] is what also, when you introduce someone to the idea of what their teeth could be improved by. I think that’s what’s [01:00:30] enjoyable to patients.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, that’s that’s enjoyable.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you meant.

Riaz Sharif: That’s what I like to see when [01:00:35] a patient. The enthusiasm of the patient, because they reflected from my charisma and my enthusiasm. [01:00:40] Like if I can, you know, I believe I like to give patients high expectations because I think [01:00:45] you’ve got to believe in yourself, haven’t you? As a young dentist, also as a as a professional [01:00:50] senior dentist, you need to believe in your ability.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence is important.

Riaz Sharif: You can’t sit there and think, oh, this might this is [01:00:55] what I think I can do, or this is what I believe I can achieve by by doing this for your smile. But I will do that. [01:01:00] And this is what I want you to feel when you have that smile. Yeah. You know, and I think.

Payman Langroudi: The only, the only thing to, [01:01:05] to worry about is.

Riaz Sharif: It’s not, you know, it’s not arrogance.

Payman Langroudi: It’s no, no, no, you need you need to worry [01:01:10] about the bits that you don’t know. You don’t know. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. They [01:01:15] tend to creep up on you in throughout career.

Riaz Sharif: Learning curves?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:01:20] I’d say even I mean, I’d say it takes a good ten years [01:01:25] before before those you realise those things. I wasn’t even a dentist for ten years. But [01:01:30] I think it does take ten years. Yeah. Even ten years is not a long time. You know, like a ten year [01:01:35] qualified dentist is 33.

Riaz Sharif: Normally it’s like seeing your cases like 4 or 5 years, ten [01:01:40] years.

Payman Langroudi: Later.

Riaz Sharif: And seeing if they’re working still see if they’re functional, still see if they haven’t broken to pieces, [01:01:45] you know, and actually that is.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Riaz Sharif: That’s the turning point of your, you know, where you would upskill [01:01:50] even further, where you need to, where do you need to work on. And I think some, you know, if you’re if you’re that character [01:01:55] who wants to learn more and is and is able to look at their mistakes. Yeah. Then you will look at that. [01:02:00] Hopefully, you know, successful or not successful case and be like, okay, cool. 510 years [01:02:05] later I need to improve on that. That’s what I need to do to become a better dentist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And listen, I think what you’ve got [01:02:10] is a really lovely combination, right. Of like, you know, Confidence. Discipline. [01:02:15] Fearing. Facing your fears. Yeah. Yeah. Determination. [01:02:20] All of you packaged that into a course. Like a thing that people can learn from. Yeah. [01:02:25] Amazing, man. Amazing. I would, I would, I would link it to some aspect of dentistry. [01:02:30]

Riaz Sharif: Of course. I’ve been told is that it’s how to sort of plan and chapter the [01:02:35] story, you know, how to express it and how to talk about it. And, you know, for me to come out of my [01:02:40] shell in the last few months about it, it’s just been huge. You know, I told Dentistry Dentistry magazine UK [01:02:45] about it and they published the article. That was a big thing for me, because obviously that gets read by a lot of people. [01:02:50] And I don’t know, you know, I’ve done a podcast with Andy Acton, so that was the first time I actually spoke [01:02:55] about these sort of topics in a vulnerable state. I was like, okay, cool. That was big [01:03:00] for me too. One of my favourite is sitting in front of you. It’s a privilege, you know, you [01:03:05] know, and talking like this to you about it. It’s it’ll be watched by your viewers and I’m [01:03:10] in a vulnerable state still, but I’m getting confident talking about it and that’s good. And hopefully the future. Like [01:03:15] you said, I like to, you know, sort of plan it in a nice way and help it help people with [01:03:20] it because it’s it’s a story that I believe is is different. Yeah. [01:03:25] And it can go somewhere. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well I hope the story keeps going forward. Thank you. [01:03:30] Really well. And I’d love to see you again in, you know, whenever, whenever you’re next up for coming.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [01:03:35] Yeah. Hopefully five years time will pop in again even sooner.

Payman Langroudi: Even sooner than that.

Riaz Sharif: Have a little chat again. [01:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um, we we end it on the usual. Fantasy [01:03:45] dinner party. Okay. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Riaz Sharif: Dead or [01:03:50] alive? Three guests. Okay. Who’s going to be sitting on that table with me? Who? Who [01:03:55] will be at the table with me?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Who do you want?

Riaz Sharif: Three people, dead or alive. First of [01:04:00] all, I’d like to see, uh, probably Bob Marley. Um, you [01:04:05] know, for me, growing up, his music was a big thing for me. I lived, I lived with a [01:04:10] Jamaican lady. She was born in that house. All I heard was reggae music. And it’s been embedded [01:04:15] in me since a young man. Some young little boy. The food, the culture, the relaxing. [01:04:20] Sort of, you know, his persona as a man. You know, I read his stories, [01:04:25] um, and, yeah, he. If I ever sat down with him, I’d like to talk to him about his life and, [01:04:30] you know, learn from him, maybe from what he he went through. Because he went through a lot, didn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: How many houses [01:04:35] in total did you live in?

Riaz Sharif: Me and probably around. God, I don’t know, multiple. [01:04:40] Probably about 6 or 7. Easily. Even more.

Payman Langroudi: And what [01:04:45] are their things about different families? That. Are they each one totally different or are [01:04:50] there types of families?

Riaz Sharif: That’s a very good question. I think when you go to different houses, right. Most [01:04:55] of them are foster mothers. So they’ve got their own children. Yeah. So you’re in a house with their [01:05:00] own children, but also with other multiple foster kids? Yeah. And you’re and you’re you’re [01:05:05] you’re you’re expected to integrate into the house with the with the mother. The father, [01:05:10] what you call the mother and father, and also their children. But you know that there’s there’s there’s something in that house [01:05:15] that you don’t feel connected because of course, you know, but, you know, there’s and I [01:05:20] don’t remember ever forming a very, very, very strong bond with any of them. You know, sometimes I wanted [01:05:25] to leave and sometimes I would run away. And, you know, there’s been 1 or 2 families [01:05:30] that I’ve spent a long time with, unfortunately, that broke down. But, you know, it’s [01:05:35] it’s it’s different.

Payman Langroudi: Outside of you when you look at these families where you’re looking at the [01:05:40] mother’s relationship with the children, do you see loads of like, is every single one dysfunctional [01:05:45] in its own way, or are there groups like you say, are these are.

Riaz Sharif: I think, [01:05:50] I think, I think because they’re not there. The mother isn’t. You’re not there’s no biological connection [01:05:55] between you and the mother. You’re they’re not they’re lacking a connection with [01:06:00] you as a as a foster kid.

Payman Langroudi: But, I mean, with their own children.

Riaz Sharif: Oh, did you see a difference? Yeah, I remember [01:06:05] feeling even I don’t remember vividly what it what it was. But I remember I remember feeling that there’s a big difference here. They [01:06:10] care about them more. And this is where it goes back to right at the beginning of our podcast, where it’s about love and attachment and feeling [01:06:15] different and separated.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But yeah, but when you look at that mother with her children, [01:06:20] it’s very different. You look at the next mother with her children. Oh yeah. Yeah. Do you see differences?

Riaz Sharif: There’s a pattern. [01:06:25] There’s a pattern. Go on, go on. It’s it’s the it’s the mother mother connection to their [01:06:30] offspring. It’s very biological. It’s very connected. Yeah, but you feel like an outcast. Yeah. [01:06:35] You do? Yeah. And you feel like you don’t feel like you belong there, you know? And obviously. [01:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: Even where the guy was your mentor.

Riaz Sharif: This is. This is why. This is why I’m always curious about whenever [01:06:45] I see, like, a, you know, a mother and a daughter, a mother and a son. And obviously they’re like their role model. [01:06:50] They’re they’re driving and pushing their daughter or son to become someone their, their best friend, you know, in [01:06:55] some cases, you know, and but that they’ve got that setting, that family setting that I believe that I like to understand, [01:07:00] uh, or would have liked to have understood. Now, now I’m okay. Now I’ve grown up and [01:07:05] I’ve overcome that. But back then I missed it, I wanted it, I craved it, and are you. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Still looking for your own mother?

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, I am, yeah, I am. This is [01:07:15] this goes back to our question. Who else will be on that table? Yeah. My birth mother’s mother. Oh [01:07:20] of course. Yeah. And I know I don’t know where she is, but, [01:07:25] uh.

Payman Langroudi: How did you if you if if you were sitting in front of her now, [01:07:30] what would you say?

Riaz Sharif: I just want to ask her if she’s proud of me. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Of course [01:07:35] she is.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s complicated because, you know, it makes me emotional. But I [01:07:40] like to make her proud. Whoever she was, you know, she put me on this earth.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:07:45] beautiful.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. And it’s, you know, whether she’s proud or happy or she’s, you know, whatever she is, [01:07:50] how she feels looking at me on that table, I just like to look at her and be like, mum, you know, I hope [01:07:55] you’re well.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Riaz Sharif: I love you.

Payman Langroudi: Well, could have been anything right. But you’ve [01:08:00] come on. Come to that.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s weird because you can’t, you know, you, you know, get [01:08:05] emotional, but you form a connection with somebody you don’t even know. Yeah. And it’s unusual. And [01:08:10] that’s that’s the unusual part of being a human. You don’t know. You know, some emotions are weird, aren’t they? You don’t [01:08:15] know. You can’t express them or explain them. But, yeah, she was on that table. [01:08:20] I just want to be like, mum, I hope you’re well. Um. I’ve done good. Well, [01:08:25] yeah. Uh. Third person. Yeah. Uh, keep me on [01:08:30] my mind. Right again. Oh, it’s a mosque.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Riaz Sharif: Uh, CEO of SpaceX [01:08:35] and Tesla. Yeah. He’s, uh, people like him inspire me because they’re. They’re visionaries [01:08:40] that believe he’s extraordinary. Man. He’s a very.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you want to say about him. He is extraordinary.

Riaz Sharif: He’s [01:08:45] a very ordinary man. I don’t yeah, he has a vision and he goes for it. And he makes he makes it. He comes to life. [01:08:50] Yeah. And this is, you know, I don’t believe all my ideas come to life, but I’m the sort of guy that if I have an idea [01:08:55] or I want to do something, I set my mind to it. I want it to come to life. I don’t want to sit there and put it to stone [01:09:00] and it will never happen. And so, like you said, in five years, I want my life to be very different. I want it to [01:09:05] be very stable, happy. I want to help people around me. I want to be on a platform where I can help people on [01:09:10] a bigger scale, you know? And it all starts from now. So I believe I’m in the right profession to start. [01:09:15] Start it with.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice. Yeah. And the final question [01:09:20] tends to be a deathbed question. Yeah. Three pieces of advice for your loved [01:09:25] ones. Um.

Riaz Sharif: Stay resilient. Never go. Never give up on your goals. [01:09:30] And don’t let someone’s opinion of you become your reality. Les [01:09:35] brown. You know that that quote. He said that Les Brown. But it’s the best quote that I could ever [01:09:40] stand by. Because we live in this life where people tell us what they think we are, and we [01:09:45] and most people live by that until they’re dead. Or they or they, you know, until they get older and they let someone. [01:09:50]

Payman Langroudi: Else define you.

Riaz Sharif: Absolutely. They miss out on opportunities because of someone’s expectation or [01:09:55] opinion of them. And I think like that shouldn’t be that shouldn’t be true because you need to believe in your own [01:10:00] ability, your own, you know, your own driving force and your own what you desire in your life and make [01:10:05] it come true. You’re the only person who you need to prove that point to. And that’s what I would tell people around me [01:10:10] on my deathbed. Yeah, just keep going. Don’t ever give up on it. And [01:10:15] just don’t ever have any regrets about what you missed, what you could have done in your life. Just do what you can [01:10:20] do. Yeah, true. That’s it. And set realistic [01:10:25] goals. You know, I think that’s the next thing. And when when we set goals higher than what we think, you [01:10:30] know, we can’t accomplish. And we get let down by them, don’t we? So set realistic goals. And like [01:10:35] you said as well, you said, you mentioned a few times in the podcast just take steps. Don’t you don’t need to rush. Just [01:10:40] let the process unfold when it needs to unfold and hopefully it leads to beautiful places. So [01:10:45] that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive inspiration, man. It really it really, [01:10:50] really has. You know, when you came on the course, you I thought you were a bit quiet. You were [01:10:55] a quiet guy. And I thought, what’s wrong with him, man? Yeah. Um, but it’s [01:11:00] been a massive honour.

Riaz Sharif: To listen to. So much was going on that, of course, we didn’t really get much time to [01:11:05] speak to you. But yeah, it was, um. Yeah, he’s amazing man.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much.

Riaz Sharif: I appreciate you so much. [01:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for, you.

Riaz Sharif: Know, thanks for.

Payman Langroudi: Coming here.

Riaz Sharif: Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: Appreciate it. [01:11:15]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to [01:11:20] go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:11:25] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:11:30]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:11:35] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:11:40] what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of [01:11:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:11:50] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much [01:11:55] for listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get [00:00:10] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Prav Solanki: Hello and welcome to the [00:00:25] Dental Leaders Podcast Prav Solanki here. 2nd of January, 6 a.m. 2025 [00:00:30] recording a solo episode. So this time [00:00:35] of year, beginning of the year, what is it that I’m thinking about? I’m thinking about the year ahead. A [00:00:40] lot of us take some time off between Christmas and New Year to reset, indulge, [00:00:45] spend time with the family, switch off from work and some of us have [00:00:50] been grafting all the way through. For me, it’s been a balance between the two. I’ve definitely taken [00:00:55] some time out. If I look back, I would have probably spent that time [00:01:00] a little bit differently, but hey, that’s life, right? So, um, probably overindulged a [00:01:05] little bit. Not trained as hard as I could have done, or as much as I would [00:01:10] have liked to have done. But no regrets. During the time between [00:01:15] Christmas and New Year, I usually spend that time planning. So as well as switching [00:01:20] off, I do do a little bit of work. I’ve caught up with a handful of clients who are also [00:01:25] planning for 2025, speaking to them about what their growth plans are, their marketing [00:01:30] strategy, what they’re looking to achieve, whether it’s a step [00:01:35] back from the clinic, sell the clinic, grow the clinic, campaign [00:01:40] driven open days, this, that and the other, everyone’s got a bunch of different goals [00:01:45] that they’ve got for the different practices that we work with. And I think [00:01:50] for me, I’ve spent that time doing what I do around this time.

Prav Solanki: I’ve [00:01:55] spoken about it before and I go through this exercise called The Wheel of Life, Zig [00:02:00] Ziglar Wheel of Life, and I rate myself from 1 to 10 in different facets [00:02:05] and areas of my life, looking at things like relationships with friends and family members [00:02:10] and where I score on those in terms of my effort and what I need to do to improve [00:02:15] them. And it might be as simple as a phone call, a lunch date, or something like that. Romance. [00:02:20] Health and fitness. Spirituality. Career and [00:02:25] personal development. What do I want to get better at this year for me? Definitely definitely [00:02:30] definitely. I want to get much, much better at public speaking and communication. [00:02:35] It’s an area of my career that has blossomed and grown over the last [00:02:40] 3 or 4 years. I’m getting better at it, but certainly this [00:02:45] time next year I want to be a much, much better speaker than I am today. And [00:02:50] so part and parcel of that will be a conscious effort to get somebody to help me with my [00:02:55] speaking presence. I’ve already invested in a couple of courses and also [00:03:00] a coach to help me with my public speaking, my articulation, [00:03:05] my stage presence. I just really want to hone that skill and get much, [00:03:10] much better at that. And then look at things like work, finance, [00:03:15] um, and all those sorts of things, business, the dental practice [00:03:20] and what I can do in those different areas to improve things [00:03:25] for me.

Prav Solanki: A massive focus this year last year was massively focussed [00:03:30] on work and growing the business, getting the business to the to the level [00:03:35] I wanted to get it to, and I think I’m at a comfortable place now where [00:03:40] the vast majority of my energy thought process is going to [00:03:45] go into health and wellness, and part and parcel of that is going to revolve around [00:03:50] actively taking a role in that. So the training, the exercise, [00:03:55] the routine of that and part and parcel of it is [00:04:00] going to focus around the habits around living a healthy life. [00:04:05] I like to do a lot of research in the science and the evidence [00:04:10] around health and wellness, whether that goes into what you put into your mouth in [00:04:15] terms of food, diet, training, methodology, supplementation, [00:04:20] and what’s out there in terms of information. And I usually find the [00:04:25] best way of learning is by sharing. So I’m [00:04:30] going to be spending quite a bit of time this year documenting my health and wellness journey. [00:04:35] Any research that I read or podcasts that I listen to, [00:04:40] and summarising that in a email that will go out [00:04:45] to my subscribers. Of those who’ve subscribed to my list, I’ll be sending an email out [00:04:50] to all my subscribers as well this time of year to just sort of ask them, do they still [00:04:55] want to be on that list? So loads of people have subscribed, they’ll have downloaded some [00:05:00] marketing guide or something.

Prav Solanki: They’ll be on my list and perhaps they don’t want to hear from me anymore. So [00:05:05] once a year I do an email cleanse and I invite my guests to unsubscribe [00:05:10] my subscribers to unsubscribe from my list if they don’t want to hear from me again. Um, [00:05:15] and those who want to stay on and engage, um, and listen to what I’ve got to say, [00:05:20] whether it’s about business growth, marketing campaigns, um, and [00:05:25] this particular year focusing on sort of health and wellness, really, that’s a big, [00:05:30] big focus for me. So having done the planning for 2025, [00:05:35] I’ve helped a lot of my clients plan for 2025. Um, big, [00:05:40] big area for me career wise is, [00:05:45] like I’ve said, the public speaking and presenting and getting better at that and then focusing on health and wellness [00:05:50] and sharing my journey with my audience at the same time. That helps me learn [00:05:55] as well. So what are the general conversations that I [00:06:00] am having with my clients at the moment when it comes to growth, [00:06:05] marketing, lead generation, sales, and [00:06:10] generally the issues that are facing? A lot of my clients, whether [00:06:15] they’re associates or dental practice owners. Certainly for [00:06:20] me, the general conversation that I seem to be having with a lot of clients [00:06:25] is it’s getting a lot harder. The last few months has been challenging. And [00:06:30] part and parcel of that has been a step up in competition. Right? [00:06:35] The cost of advertising has gone through the roof.

Prav Solanki: When we look at stats and we look [00:06:40] at marketing and advertising and we’re running, [00:06:45] let’s say Google ad campaigns, Facebook ad campaigns and things like that. I think [00:06:50] one of the things that’s really important is measuring the outcome of [00:06:55] the funds that you put into your advertising campaigns, and one of the ways in which we do [00:07:00] that is any campaigns that we’re running, we look at the cost per acquisition [00:07:05] or the cost per lead. Now, if we start at the beginning of that journey, you put some money into the machine [00:07:10] and from the other side you get some contact details of a prospective patient [00:07:15] who’s interested in treatment X, let’s call that dental implants. Now [00:07:20] the cost per acquisition or the cost per contact details at the moment is is [00:07:25] on the increase okay. So let’s say at the moment, you know a dental implant [00:07:30] enquiry might cost you, I don’t know, £15 to get a patient’s details. [00:07:35] And that might go up to over the course of the next 3 to 6 months, £20, £20, [00:07:40] £30, £50, whatever that is. But then following that, the [00:07:45] number of those inquiries that convert into consultation gives [00:07:50] you another metric, which is the cost per booking. So let’s keep the numbers [00:07:55] really simple. Let’s say you throw £100 into a marketing campaign and that [00:08:00] generates you ten inquiries. Then your cost per enquiry is £10. [00:08:05] But out of those ten inquiries, you only get one patient that [00:08:10] books in for a consultation.

Prav Solanki: Then your cost per booking is now £100 or [00:08:15] per patient sat on the chair. And if that, if you’ve got a 100% conversion [00:08:20] rate on that, then your cost per converted paying patient is £100 as well. [00:08:25] And you can work out those metrics. Tracking that is a really, really important [00:08:30] way of monitoring and measuring your advertising. Now, what we have noticed [00:08:35] over the last, say, 6 to 9 months is the cost per booking. The cost [00:08:40] per enquiry has gone up and why is that? I think there’s a few reasons, and [00:08:45] one of them is that the competition has gone up and the auction [00:08:50] has changed. So imagine we’re running some ad campaigns, and before we only had ten [00:08:55] competitors and now there’s 20 competitors. They’re all marketing [00:09:00] different things. Some of them are going in at price points that are just unimaginable [00:09:05] for some of my clients. And they can’t compete on price. So we need to compete on quality or a message [00:09:10] or experience or something like that. And some of them are coming in at a similar price point [00:09:15] with similar experience. So more and more clinics are getting savvy with advertising and [00:09:20] deciding to invest in their marketing campaigns and generate [00:09:25] the sort of inquiries that can grow their business. The other thing that [00:09:30] has shifted has been a massive shift is that a lot of associates within [00:09:35] dental practices have started to spend money on advertising. [00:09:40] I started to see this in 2023.

Prav Solanki: And in 2024, [00:09:45] there was an explosion of this, whereby about 30% [00:09:50] of the new inquiries that come into our business when clients are getting in touch with us to help [00:09:55] help them with lead generation, marketing and ad campaigns. About [00:10:00] 30% of those enquiries now are coming from associates. And I think it’s [00:10:05] this shift, this mindset shift with associates where they are realising [00:10:10] that they own a business within a business. [00:10:15] And the beauty of that is, as an associate, you haven’t got [00:10:20] the overheads of running the business, you haven’t got the fixed costs [00:10:25] of employing team members, QC, compliance, rent, [00:10:30] all of that sort of stuff. You just come in and you do your work and you get paid [00:10:35] a percentage of the profit that you generate, the net profit that you generate. [00:10:40] Um, all the gross profit should say that you generate. Right? You get a percentage of [00:10:45] that. Now, I think the key thing here is that if you understand [00:10:50] that and as an associate, if you’re investing in marketing, the [00:10:55] potential return is huge. But what that does for dental practice owners are a lot of [00:11:00] my clients is it’s increasing the competition. And let me quantify that with some [00:11:05] actual data. So one particular client, we were looking at their implant campaign [00:11:10] over the last nine months. The performance of that campaign has dropped. [00:11:15] And so when we did an analysis and we looked at that, one of the things that was really clear [00:11:20] is that the cost per enquiry had gone through the roof.

Prav Solanki: And so [00:11:25] the number of inquiries per, let’s say, thousand pound of media spend budget had [00:11:30] gone down dramatically. When you dig into the data a little bit [00:11:35] deeper, and this is referring specifically to Google Ads, the CPC [00:11:40] or the cost per click has also gone up. So that particular keyword and let’s [00:11:45] just say for argument’s sake, that keyword was dental implants plus location that they’re in. Okay. [00:11:50] So let’s just call that dental implants. Just call it dental implants. Birmingham for [00:11:55] argument’s sake. The cost of that click nine months ago [00:12:00] was about £1.83. The cost of that [00:12:05] click now. So nine months on is closer to £4 [00:12:10] right. Over double what it used to be. What does that mean? [00:12:15] It means there’s more competition in the auction. There’s more people bidding [00:12:20] on that keyword. And therefore the cost of that keyword has gone up, which then [00:12:25] has a knock on effect. Because if it used to take ten clicks to get an enquiry [00:12:30] and it still takes ten clicks to get an enquiry, it’s going to cost you twice [00:12:35] as much to get that enquiry. Now, if your competitors are coming in at a cheaper price [00:12:40] or they’ve got better offers or better deals than you, perhaps your conversion rate from clicks to [00:12:45] inquiries goes down so your cost per acquisition goes up even more. The [00:12:50] bottom line is there is a rising cost per acquisition of advertising, and [00:12:55] there’s a few things that we can do to counter that.

Prav Solanki: One change your advertising message [00:13:00] to improve your sales process. Three increase [00:13:05] your budget. And it’s a combination of those things that are going to help you win in 2025 [00:13:10] with the associates. I’m just going I’m just going to I’m just going to go back to that, [00:13:15] and then we’ll come back to the advertising and marketing and deal with those three points. But [00:13:20] with the associates who are now realising that they own a business within [00:13:25] a business, this is a game changer for a lot of our clients who are working [00:13:30] with, who are associates that are running their campaigns. But the one thing they’ve got to be mindful of [00:13:35] is this is that you can invest in the marketing and the lead generation and generate the enquiries. [00:13:40] But as an associate, unless you have that sales process buttoned down [00:13:45] when that enquiry comes in, who’s going to deal with it? If you’re hosted within a practice where they’ve got an [00:13:50] amazing sales team and they’re happy to convert your enquiries for you. Magic. If not, [00:13:55] what’s the next step? Are you going to employ somebody part time, full time, whatever [00:14:00] that is, to handle those enquiries, you’re going to use one of these third party call answering services [00:14:05] or um, lead handling services as well as advertising. [00:14:10] You’ve really got to think about the sales process. And sales and marketing go hand in [00:14:15] hand in harmony. Going back to what can we do in this rising cost [00:14:20] of advertising to improve what I call the overall [00:14:25] conversion rate, or to make sure you’re converting more of that business into [00:14:30] patients who are going ahead with treatment.

Prav Solanki: I think the key thing here [00:14:35] is let’s just look at all the different aspects, right? So the first part is what [00:14:40] is your marketing message. Perhaps you could get away with something a little bit weaker now. But if you’re [00:14:45] competing on price then make that clear and transparent. If you’re not competing on price, [00:14:50] what you’re competing on is experience. Have you got a certain number of Google reviews that you [00:14:55] need to sing and dance about? Have you got video testimonials that could be making it, making its [00:15:00] way through on the landing page? And when that inquiry lands, have you got [00:15:05] a decent automated email sequence that goes out to that patient [00:15:10] that really does tell them about what it is that you offer, who you are with [00:15:15] lots and lots of social proof. Let’s remember this, that every patient [00:15:20] that inquires with you, certainly those that are interested in any kind of cosmetic [00:15:25] implant, that sort of treatment on the whole, if they are online [00:15:30] searching, they will be doing their due diligence, and they will be [00:15:35] spending a lot of their time inquiring at multiple clinics, engaging with multiple [00:15:40] clinics. So your response is essential. It’s really, really important. [00:15:45] And the second thing is your response rate is important. So is the quality [00:15:50] of the response but the speed of the response as well.

Prav Solanki: So the conversation [00:15:55] that perhaps your team has with a patient and when your team speaks [00:16:00] to them, your three days or four days late versus the other [00:16:05] clinic, who’s jumping on that lead within, I don’t know, 15, [00:16:10] 20 minutes of it, inquiring, inquiring and getting them booked in straight away. [00:16:15] Lots of our clients have had their campaigns switched on over Christmas. Between Christmas [00:16:20] and New Year. Those that will be more successful will have had somebody during that busy [00:16:25] period getting back to patients, talking to patients, engaging with them, texting them [00:16:30] during that period of time. And it’s really, really important that your sales [00:16:35] process is absolutely on point. And what do I mean by that? I [00:16:40] think making sure in today’s age you have got a very, very good and robust [00:16:45] CRM system to manage and handle your enquiries. And that [00:16:50] automations are what I would call emotionally intelligent, [00:16:55] but also share all of your usp’s. I’ll give you a simple example. If [00:17:00] anyone inquires at my clinic and they’re interested in, let’s say, full [00:17:05] arch implant dentistry or same day teeth or implanted dentures, they’ll [00:17:10] receive a message along the lines of thank you for your enquiry. And I can see [00:17:15] that you’re interested in changing your smile and your exploring and implanted [00:17:20] dentures. Our implanted denture service is delivered by [00:17:25] master’s level implant surgeon, Doctor Suresh Chohan and Mark Northover, [00:17:30] who has got over three decades of experience handcrafting unbelievably [00:17:35] natural looking dentures that look and feel like natural [00:17:40] teeth.

Prav Solanki: I’d love to invite you to come in and meet Mark and [00:17:45] Suresh at a complimentary consultation, where they can learn about your smile, [00:17:50] you can learn about the costs, and they can also take you through examples [00:17:55] of previous patients whose lives we’ve transformed, giving them the gift of being able to eat whatever [00:18:00] they want again, smile with confidence and get a new lease of [00:18:05] life. We’re proud to have over 355 star [00:18:10] Google reviews from patients just like yourself, who are in a situation where [00:18:15] they were unsure of who they should choose to have their treatment with something [00:18:20] along those lines, and then we will respond to them within 15 minutes. They’ll also get a [00:18:25] text message at the same time, if we try and call them and we can’t get through to them in the morning, we’ll [00:18:30] try them again at lunchtime. We’ll try them again in the evening. But all of that process, [00:18:35] the entire process, the automation, the language, the emotional intelligence, all of that [00:18:40] is driven by our lead flow CRM system, right? Our CRM system [00:18:45] helps our team know what to send the patient and when. It automates [00:18:50] part of that journey, and it really does help us drive that sales [00:18:55] process really smoothly. So whatever system you’re using, [00:19:00] whether it’s Google Sheets, whether you’re using a different CRM system, it doesn’t really matter. Just make [00:19:05] sure you’ve got a robust process in place for sales.

Prav Solanki: So clients that come to me and say, hey, [00:19:10] we want to increase our marketing budget, or we’re looking at advertising now and growing our clinic. [00:19:15] The first thing I will ask them to do is spend some time nailing their sales process, [00:19:20] because you can rapidly increase your return on investment much, much quicker. [00:19:25] The other thing that I’m seeing in a lot of clinics is missed calls. [00:19:30] We do for a lot of our clinics, we record the phone calls, and we [00:19:35] put call tracking numbers on landing pages and advertising campaigns so [00:19:40] that we can see how many of those ads are creating phone [00:19:45] calls. But the benefit is we record the phone calls that have been skipped or answered, and [00:19:50] we can see there’s a lot of missed calls going on. And what is the biggest cause [00:19:55] of missed calls? I’ll tell you now, it’s an automated call answering [00:20:00] service. So if you’ve got one of these in your practice. Welcome to ABC Dental [00:20:05] Practice. If you’re a new patient, press one. If you’re an existing [00:20:10] patient, press two. If you’d like to change an existing appointment, press [00:20:15] three. So on and so forth. The number of patients that just do [00:20:20] not continue with those is It’s unreal. So if you’ve got something like [00:20:25] that in place and you don’t have to have that in place, it’s funny. [00:20:30] You know, a lot of practices offer three options or two options. Same pit, same person [00:20:35] who answers the phone irrespective if the reason for that call menu [00:20:40] is not to change the you know, it’s to deliver the same service at the end of the phone. [00:20:45]

Prav Solanki: Drop it. If you’ve got a human being answering on the end of that call and just put yourself in that position. [00:20:50] If you’re sitting waiting on a menu, whether you’re booking a restaurant or whatever it is, [00:20:55] you don’t want to be on hold. You don’t want to. You want to speak and connect to a human being straight away. [00:21:00] If you can make that happen, you will increase the volume of sales that you do. [00:21:05] So we’re seeing a lot of missed calls. Then the next thing we’re seeing or hearing [00:21:10] when we listen to those calls is transactional information. [00:21:15] Or you’re interested in dental implants or dental implants start from £2,800. [00:21:20] That doesn’t include any bone grafting, but includes the implant and the whole crown. To book you in for a consultation [00:21:25] or just need to take some details. Blah blah blah. But that call is [00:21:30] missing three key elements. And I see this all the time. Even with [00:21:35] clinics at the top of their game, they’re missing the why now. So [00:21:40] they’re not getting the information from the patient. Like what? What’s going on in your life? How long have you had [00:21:45] this problem and why now? The missing, the pain. They’re not understanding what the pain points [00:21:50] are of the patient and developing that rapport and connection on that call.

Prav Solanki: So they’re missing [00:21:55] those two things. And the third thing they’re missing is the why. Is there something memorable? [00:22:00] You can tell that patient the usp’s about your clinic, the experience of the surgeon, [00:22:05] the experience of your clinicians, the fact that you offer sedation, the fact that you cater for nervous patients, [00:22:10] the fact that you’ve got 505 star Google reviews and you’re going to be joining those patients, [00:22:15] the fact that you’re a multi-award winning practice, a lot of that is missing, [00:22:20] and a lot of these phone calls and conversations are transactional in nature. Now, when these patients [00:22:25] are speaking to three, four, five clinics at a time, you need to be sharing [00:22:30] something with them that makes sure that that call is memorable. [00:22:35] So that’s really, really important, right? Your sales process. And [00:22:40] one of the most popular courses that I deliver, or training sessions that I deliver, is [00:22:45] my Sales Mastery course that I run in collaboration with the IAS Academy. I think I [00:22:50] run 2 or 3 courses or events a year. And one of the things [00:22:55] that I really focus on when I’m delivering that course is tailored, [00:23:00] emotionally intelligent communication with every patient. [00:23:05] And unfortunately, I’m seeing a lot of copy paste. So when I go into a business and I analyse [00:23:10] how they respond to emails. So if a patient inquires [00:23:15] about Invisalign, they get the same copy paste template irrespective of whatever [00:23:20] they have said. Same copy paste template and sometimes it’s [00:23:25] just jarring because it’s not relevant.

Prav Solanki: So my advice [00:23:30] is that if you’re spending all this money on marketing getting these inquiries through, just take a moment [00:23:35] to read that patient’s inquiry in detail. Take a moment to specifically [00:23:40] answer that patient’s needs in the email, and take [00:23:45] a moment to address absolutely everything [00:23:50] they’ve asked so that they feel that it’s that it’s not a copy and paste, because [00:23:55] you can spot a copy and paste miles away. We’ve got an exciting offer this month [00:24:00] with Invisalign. We’re giving away this, that and the other, but the patient’s ask something a little bit [00:24:05] more specific. Answer that question first. Deliver the rest of the template, but [00:24:10] make it very, very specific and stop the copy and pasting. I’m seeing that [00:24:15] quite a lot. Um, so marketing and sales. Sales process is really important [00:24:20] when it comes to the marketing side of things. And you can drop your marketing [00:24:25] budget massively when you’ve got an amazing sales team in place. [00:24:30] The other thing that I’m asking a lot of practices to do is think about what data [00:24:35] is sat within their practice right now. And what I’m talking about are the quick [00:24:40] wins. So think about all the inquiries. Just look at 2024 [00:24:45] and take some time to look at every single inquiry that landed in your [00:24:50] practice in 2024 that never made it through to a consultation. If those patients [00:24:55] haven’t gone ahead somewhere else, they have still got that same dental issue.

Prav Solanki: Reach out to them [00:25:00] again. Reactivate them, pick up the phone, send them a text message. Send them an email. [00:25:05] Reactivation campaigns for our clients are one of the most cost [00:25:10] effective and highest ROI campaigns that we’ve ever, ever done for a client. In fact, when [00:25:15] we onboard a new client, it’s one of the first things that we can do, um, that can provide a high [00:25:20] level of ROI. So think about those. Think about every patient that you’ve [00:25:25] handed a treatment plan over to that hasn’t gone ahead. Reach out to them and reactivate those. [00:25:30] And a huge one is open treatment plans. Those patients [00:25:35] who perhaps you started treatment on. Right. Let’s say let’s say you’d prescribed [00:25:40] six crowns, but they’ve only had two and they haven’t got a next appointment. What can we do to wake them [00:25:45] up? Can we start speaking to them, engaging with them. Some people say, oh, you know, I haven’t got enough enough [00:25:50] work for a new team member. I’m going to hire a TCO or [00:25:55] whatever. There’s tons of data in your practice to keep team members busy, so open [00:26:00] treatment plans is a massive game changer. Works really well when we pick up the [00:26:05] phone and re-engage with them. And then some practices that have been going for such a long time [00:26:10] have got a Database of, should we say, patients who haven’t visited [00:26:15] the clinic in the last 12 months and don’t have an appointment in the next 12 months? Well, there’s [00:26:20] some low hanging fruit for you, and there’s a massive opportunity for you to just pick up the phone, [00:26:25] send an email and send a text message and say, I noticed you haven’t got an appointment booked in [00:26:30] and you haven’t been in for a while.

Prav Solanki: We’d love to just carry out an oral health check and make sure everything’s okay. [00:26:35] When can we get you fitted in? So that’s really, really important. [00:26:40] And the next thing that is working. But I think let me just, [00:26:45] um, take a couple of steps back. Everyone at the moment is doing [00:26:50] Invisalign, bonding and implants, and the advertising [00:26:55] platforms are absolutely cluttered with offers [00:27:00] for Invisalign open days, Invisalign deals. New year. [00:27:05] New year is around the corner, right? So everyone’s running campaigns, new year, new you. Best [00:27:10] offer of 2025. Get your teeth and get your confidence in 2010. All of this [00:27:15] is going out at the moment, right for our clients as well. But maybe think [00:27:20] about something different. And what’s bringing me [00:27:25] to this is towards the end of last year, I spent some time in [00:27:30] Aqua Dental Clinic. Um, if you were, if you ever new a new maney. [00:27:35] Um, one of my first clients met him maybe, what, 16, [00:27:40] 17 years ago at his clinic in central London at the time, before he sold that, [00:27:45] um, and launched his, um, his clinic in Hatch End, which was nearer to home. Um, [00:27:50] and he was well ahead of his time at the time when I met [00:27:55] him, he said, look, Prav, one of the things that I focus on is nervous patients.

Prav Solanki: And [00:28:00] he bought the domain name Dental dentists. Co.uk back then. Um, and [00:28:05] he was really, really big on the communication, the strategy, the campaigns [00:28:10] that we were driving focussed on nervous, patient campaigns. [00:28:15] And although Anoop is no longer with us, his wife Neera is still running that [00:28:20] dental practice and the emphasis there is still about [00:28:25] treating nervous patients. And what does Neera tell me about nervous patients? Generally, [00:28:30] they’re hard at work. And what I mean by hard work is you need to give them a [00:28:35] lot more time. But very, very rarely do nervous patients start [00:28:40] asking you for a deal, haggle about price, or say the clinic [00:28:45] down the road is offering free whitening with this, that and the other because you’re solving a [00:28:50] bigger problem. And that is the anxiety that they feel about coming into a dental [00:28:55] practice and be that through, um, simple communication, your patient [00:29:00] journey, when you get that patient through the door the first time and they don’t even step into the surgery or meet [00:29:05] the dentist. And then the second time to meet the dentist in the waiting area. And then the third time [00:29:10] they go and they’ve got a nervous patient program. They offer sedation. It’s the way they greet [00:29:15] and talk to patients and give them the time. And so a lot of our campaigns that we run for them [00:29:20] focussed on nervous patient dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Guess what. There’s [00:29:25] not a lot of competition out there for that because very, very few practices are pushing [00:29:30] that or sedation campaigns and those sort of things. And I spent some [00:29:35] time towards the end of last year videoing some of these patients. [00:29:40] So we did a videography day at near his practice, and I had the opportunity [00:29:45] to interview probably 6 to 8 patients that day. And I spent some time [00:29:50] speaking to them, learning about them and understanding why they chose [00:29:55] that clinic and what was really interesting. And it all goes back to a website [00:30:00] that I started back in, gosh, probably around Probably around [00:30:05] the time I started the bit, about 2008 2009 launched [00:30:10] a website called Dental phobia. Co.uk to help connect [00:30:15] clinics that offer. Shall we say, a service that’s dedicated [00:30:20] to nervous patients and also connect those nervous patients. If you type Dental phobia [00:30:25] into Google, it ranks number one. And we get thousands of patients every month coming to [00:30:30] that website looking for an appropriate dentist in their area who offers sedation [00:30:35] and whatnot. Having spoken to these patients, [00:30:40] the vast majority of them went to that website and looked for a [00:30:45] nervous patient provider. And what was really important to them [00:30:50] is getting some reassurance that there’s a community of these dentists. But then once again, once [00:30:55] they’d gone to the nearest website, learned about nerer, enquired, [00:31:00] sent an email, remember some of these nervous patients just [00:31:05] picking up the phone is a massive leap.

Prav Solanki: So a lot of them will email. Now what’s [00:31:10] the emotive response? What’s the emotional intelligence behind that email that goes out when [00:31:15] the nervous patient inquires? For a lot of them, they just want the reassurance [00:31:20] when they say they’re nervous, not the reassurance. They’re in safe hands and they want to learn about the process. [00:31:25] And some of them take weeks, even months to step through the door. [00:31:30] But let me tell you, a lot of these patients have got dental neglect. They need a lot of work [00:31:35] in terms of from a business point of view, if we look at it purely from that point of view, generates [00:31:40] a lot of revenue. And at the same time, um, you’re changing [00:31:45] someone’s life because you’re giving them the courage to be able to step through the door and [00:31:50] take things into their own hands. And often it’s a previous bad experience, whatever [00:31:55] that is, whether it’s a it’s a dentist who didn’t quite treat him with the respect, um, [00:32:00] and heart that they, that they wanted. Um, or perhaps it’s just this inbuilt fear of [00:32:05] needles pain for, for a lot of them it’s the not knowing, [00:32:10] um, and just communication and talking them through. One of one of the patients said that the main thing [00:32:15] is they didn’t even need sedation, was that Neera just told me step by step what she was [00:32:20] going to do and step by step, what she was doing.

Prav Solanki: And she did exactly what she said she was going to do. And that patient [00:32:25] felt in control. Um, so if you offer a dedicated cam, if you offer [00:32:30] a dedicated service for nervous patients, have a think about if you’re running [00:32:35] marketing campaigns to maybe push some of your budget into that. Another [00:32:40] area that’s working really well that not everyone offers is children’s orthodontics. So [00:32:45] children’s orthodontic campaigns generally the same thing. You don’t get parents [00:32:50] coming through the door haggling over price because clinic has got an offer on Invisalign [00:32:55] or whatever. Parents want the best for their children. They want to know Clinically, they’ve got [00:33:00] the right, um, practitioner, whether it’s a specialist orthodontist or a highly [00:33:05] qualified GDP. Um, really, really important, um, that [00:33:10] you communicate that in your marketing campaigns once again on social [00:33:15] media, on meta ad campaigns, Facebook and Instagram, we’re seeing really, really [00:33:20] huge success on children’s orthodontic campaigns, whether it’s an open day driven [00:33:25] campaign or an evergreen campaign that’s always running and having social proof of photographs [00:33:30] of mums and children in school uniforms and things like that works [00:33:35] really, really well. I think towards the end of last year as well. [00:33:40] One of the reasons why advertising campaigns or the cost of advertising [00:33:45] went through the roof was November month, Black Friday. Lots and lots [00:33:50] of practices who weren’t advertising before stepped up their budgets, started advertising, [00:33:55] and we entered this marketplace where patients were waiting for [00:34:00] the best Black Friday deal.

Prav Solanki: And now that’s passed and people have come [00:34:05] out of Christmas. Some people are going to be looking for the new smiles. Some people are going to be overspent. [00:34:10] But I think as we get into February, things are going to improve. I do think for dentistry, [00:34:15] 2025 is going to be better than 2024. Part [00:34:20] of the reason why I say that is the acquisitions market. So if I look at [00:34:25] 2024 and a lot of the corporates out there, they’d pretty much [00:34:30] stopped buying a lot of a lot of the practices that I was working with. [00:34:35] They were mid deal. Lots of deals were paused. And certainly we’re seeing [00:34:40] confidence in the market now. I’m speaking to some of the corporates who have [00:34:45] now said that we’re now back in the acquisitions game. [00:34:50] There’s some some corporates you can see like for example Deves Group Dental beauty [00:34:55] have made a few acquisitions towards the end of last year. I’m speaking [00:35:00] to some brokers who are more in the know of what’s going on in the marketplace and they’re [00:35:05] saying, look, lots of deals are coming on the table in 2025. So if 2025 is the year [00:35:10] where you’re thinking, you know what? I’m thinking about selling my practice or [00:35:15] taking some cash off the table, or it’s the right time for you. Retirement’s coming [00:35:20] close. You 3 or 4 years away from it might be worth spending some time figuring out. [00:35:25] What is your practice worth, what are your options out there and considering them? [00:35:30] Because I do think that there are going to be more acquisitions in 2025 [00:35:35] than there were in 2024.

Prav Solanki: At least that’s what I’m hearing close to the ground [00:35:40] anyway. And that just leads me to say thank you for your time and attention [00:35:45] today. I wish you all the best for 2025. And [00:35:50] if any of you need any help with practice growth, you guys know where I am. The health [00:35:55] information that I’m going to be either publishing on my site or pushing out through my [00:36:00] email newsletter is via Prav. Com so if you want to jump [00:36:05] on there, subscribe to it, then I’ll be sharing it with you [00:36:10] whenever I publish it. I think one of the first myths I’m probably going to dispel, I’ll talk [00:36:15] about it now, is red light therapy, because it’s the biggest load of [00:36:20] rhubarb I’ve ever come across. Um, there’s loads of people [00:36:25] promoting these red lights for muscle recovery and, um, [00:36:30] wellness and all the rest of it. But if you actually look at the evidence, right, [00:36:35] and you think about the science, right, think about the wavelength of red light and [00:36:40] how deep it can penetrate. Right? At the most, at the highest impact. [00:36:45] Right. Red light is going to go into penetrate maybe two millimetres, three millimetres at the most. [00:36:50] How on Earth, how on earth is that going to help with muscle [00:36:55] recovery? I have got no idea. Right. If you read the research and read the literature, everything [00:37:00] is so marginal.

Prav Solanki: Um. And what what really gets my goat [00:37:05] is when there is information about [00:37:10] this new found supplement or this new found therapy, like, [00:37:15] you know, training under red light or lying under a red light, and this does this and this does that for [00:37:20] you. For me, it’s all about the evidence and evidence based wellness. Right. So and I’m going to be sharing [00:37:25] my view on evidence based wellness not medical information. Not advice [00:37:30] for you to go and act or anything like that, which is going to be sharing the information that I’m learning with [00:37:35] my audience to hopefully educate you and make more of an informed decision [00:37:40] about your health and wellness, because it’s a big part of what I do. Right. [00:37:45] When it comes to supplementing, taking the right supplements, choosing the right brands that have been [00:37:50] lab tested and then training. But but but the key thing and [00:37:55] I’ll say this to anyone who asks me for health advice, you [00:38:00] can’t supplement your way out of a poor diet and a poor [00:38:05] exercise routine. You can’t ice bath your way out of a poor diet [00:38:10] and a poor exercise routine, and you can’t sauna your way [00:38:15] out of that. Do the basics first. Get that [00:38:20] right. Get that consistent. So many people ask me what, what brand of this vitamin do you do? And what [00:38:25] supplements do you take and which brand of or which type of magnesium do [00:38:30] you take, and so on and so forth.

Prav Solanki: Right. The reason they’re called supplements [00:38:35] is simply this. They are there to supplement what you are already doing. [00:38:40] Get the basics right, start training on a regular basis, regular exercise, [00:38:45] a combination of some sort of strength related muscle [00:38:50] building exercises and some cardiovascular work [00:38:55] as well. Eat healthily, whatever that is. I’m not. I’m definitely not going to be sat here advising [00:39:00] you on which diet is the best, because we could be debating forever whether it’s vegetarian, [00:39:05] meat eater, low carb, high carb, intermittent fasting, this, that and the other, there’s so much [00:39:10] out there, right? Just cut out the cut out the nonsense, reduce um, the [00:39:15] stuff that you know is harmful for you, right? The processed food cut the alcohol [00:39:20] if you can’t drop it completely. Um, and you know, the sweet treats, [00:39:25] the, the, you know, the chocolate bars, the pizzas, all [00:39:30] that sort of stuff, just cut it, cut it right back, get the basics right, then start [00:39:35] thinking about supplementation and then various bits of biohacking. Right. Lying [00:39:40] under a red light is not going to be a substitute for any of that. In fact, I don’t think it’s going to do anything. [00:39:45] And on that note, it just leaves me to say I wish you all the best for 2025. [00:39:50] Whatever your goals are, whatever your dreams are, I hope that you succeed and hopefully [00:39:55] see you on Dental Leaders more. I’m going to be interviewing a few guests, sharing [00:40:00] some amazing and exciting stories and journeys, and with some really cool [00:40:05] people.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [00:40:10] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:40:15] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:40:20] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s [00:40:25] episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in [00:40:30] iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate [00:40:35] it. If you would, um, give us a.

Payman Langroudi: Six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [00:40:40] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys. [00:40:45] Bye.

Simon Thackeray: So they knew that the reason I was going private and that prices would change significantly. [00:00:05] They knew it wasn’t because I was wanting to earn more. They knew it was [00:00:10] because I wanted to do the dentistry that I’d been trained to do. And once you’ve got your staff knowing [00:00:15] that it’s going to be better for everybody, not just you, [00:00:20] but they’re going to get the benefit from it. And the patients particularly are going to get the [00:00:25] benefit.

Payman Langroudi: Tricky financial situation, psychological situation, because the team [00:00:30] will be thinking, this is a place that serves me and my family. Yeah. And then suddenly [00:00:35] the thought process might be, this place isn’t for me and my family anymore.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And so it’s [00:00:40] it’s it’s a negotiation that needs to be taken very seriously.

Simon Thackeray: It was very difficult [00:00:45] because, you know, part of your I would say anybody thinking of doing it has got to have a plan B. [00:00:50] And part of that plan B is you get smaller, you actually contract in order to expand [00:00:55] again.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is Dental Leaders the podcast [00:01:05] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:10] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:15] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Simon [00:01:20] Thackery onto the podcast. Simon is a straight talker [00:01:25] extraordinaire. Yes. Legal Eagle [00:01:30] Dental politician. I would class you as Simon and the practice principal. [00:01:35]

Simon Thackeray: Thank you for inviting me.

Payman Langroudi: Thackery Dental in Mansfield.

Simon Thackeray: That’s right. Yeah. I’m not so sure about [00:01:40] the legal eagle and the dental politics.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Simon Thackeray: I’ve got a I’ve got a master’s in law. Yeah. [00:01:45] And I do, I do do a fair amount of legal based stuff. But the more [00:01:50] you learn about the law, the less you realise you know about it.

Payman Langroudi: A bit like occlusion. Well, [00:01:55] does occlusion actually exist? Oh, I should say founder member of Bapd. [00:02:00]

Simon Thackeray: Yes, actually.

Payman Langroudi: British association private dentists.

Simon Thackeray: That’s right. That’s right. [00:02:05] Yeah. That came out of, um, that came out of Covid. Yeah. One of the [00:02:10] many things that did appear.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start with that. Yeah. Let’s start with that. My wife’s a dentist. [00:02:15] A private dentist. And in Covid, she got [00:02:20] nothing. No support whatsoever. She’s an associate. Yeah. And, you know, we were okay. But [00:02:25] I was thinking, what if she was a single mum? Oh, God. And, [00:02:30] you know, working full time and paying school fees or whatever it was. She got nothing. Zero. [00:02:35]

Simon Thackeray: And I think that was that was what we realised very, very quickly. Um, [00:02:40] we were all waiting for this big announcement. Um, probably. [00:02:45] What was it, a week, two weeks into the lockdown, we were waiting for the big announcement as to what was likely to happen [00:02:50] with dentistry. And of course, the CDO came on. And one of the first things that [00:02:55] was said is I don’t speak for private dentists, so. Hang on. Where [00:03:00] are we? You know, what is this? I don’t think, uh, anything [00:03:05] like furlough had been announced at that point. So, you know, [00:03:10] we sat there with these businesses that employ people. And, you know, I’ve [00:03:15] always looked at me as having multiple responsibilities. I have a responsibility to my family. [00:03:20] I have a responsibility to myself. But I’ve got a responsibility to 19 people who work for me [00:03:25] or work with me. And you think, hang on a minute, how am I going to look after all these [00:03:30] people? What are they going to be thinking? Um, and, you know, that weekend [00:03:35] was a lot of, you know, chatting around with various people [00:03:40] who then I didn’t know all that well, but I’d been in email contact with and [00:03:45] it finished with a big meeting on zoom with [00:03:50] about 20 or 30 of us. And the bapd APD formed [00:03:55] out of that and we realised that actually there isn’t anybody [00:04:00] speaking for private dentistry. The BDA speak for dentistry and private [00:04:05] dentistry as part of it. But when you start drilling down into the intricacies of of what [00:04:10] we do in dentistry. Private dentistry didn’t have any [00:04:15] specific representation. And the problems that we had were [00:04:20] entirely down to the fact that we weren’t then supported in any way apart from furlough, which [00:04:25] of course, we’re now paying back, aren’t we, with with higher tax rates.

Simon Thackeray: And we could get the the [00:04:30] bounce back loans. But there was nothing else. There was no information coming out fast [00:04:35] enough. And I realised that there probably wasn’t any information, but it it made [00:04:40] us realise that we needed something in place to look at the representation for private dentists, [00:04:45] and was the intention for it to continue after, you know, [00:04:50] Covid initially all you could see was Covid. It was, how do we get everybody back [00:04:55] to it? How do we keep our businesses running? How do we look after our patients? What’s the patient safety issue here? But [00:05:00] then we realised that as we look more into it, this would continue [00:05:05] because of the things that were so allied to, you know, the GDC, [00:05:10] what was their remit in Covid, what was the Cqc’s remit in Covid? [00:05:15] And of course, as a private organisation, you’re not it’s not in your lane to [00:05:20] be discussing NHS contracts. Yeah. So, you know, do [00:05:25] we have to have a position on that. And we tried to keep away from, from, you [00:05:30] know, the NHS side of it if we could, but we realised that the NHS side was actually what was potentially [00:05:35] stopping us working because everybody would listen to the, [00:05:40] the authority of the Dental Leaders and the Dental Leaders [00:05:45] were seen to be people like the the office of the Chief Dental Officer. So by default [00:05:50] the GDC would listen to that, the CQC would listen to that and then we would be [00:05:55] governed, if you like, by that. Although in reality were we. But did [00:06:00] any of us actually want to take that legal risk?

Payman Langroudi: There was a vacuum, there was a vacuum. There was a [00:06:05] huge vacuum. I think the stress tested the professional, stress tested the the country. [00:06:10] Right?

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And every country for that matter. I mean, talking to friends who live abroad, there [00:06:15] were different approaches. Mhm. Um, whether it was down to lockdown vaccinations [00:06:20] um.

Simon Thackeray: Or non lockdown as some countries actually.

Payman Langroudi: Non lockdown Sweden [00:06:25] and all that. Yeah. Um how, how quickly people were made [00:06:30] to feel like outcasts if they didn’t follow the. Yeah the, the [00:06:35] sort of the government line and how quickly we all fell into place. And if you.

Simon Thackeray: Questioned [00:06:40] it in any way. Yeah. You were suddenly some kind of outlier. And either, [00:06:45] you know, somebody who would deny the existence of it. And, you know, we did get a lot of pushback [00:06:50] from some people when we were we were trying to get I remember a lot of the work that we [00:06:55] were doing, and Dom Joly did an awful lot of research. [00:07:00] I have never seen anybody with a capacity to research and read around a subject. Hyper [00:07:05] focussed, laser focussed and, you know, trying to get people [00:07:10] back to work and coming up with a, a pragmatic [00:07:15] way of doing it that wasn’t ridiculously onerous. And as it turns out, I think we were [00:07:20] probably looking back now, we were probably quite over the top with what we ended [00:07:25] up having to do, but we didn’t know that at the time. Yeah. Um, but [00:07:30] but having people criticise us and saying that, you know, we were potentially playing games with people’s [00:07:35] lives and we actually didn’t know, you know, did we need FFP three. [00:07:40] Did we need all that barrier stuff? Was it over the top? I [00:07:45] mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting because in Germany, one of my colleagues said the practices were legally [00:07:50] mandated to stay open. Yeah, exactly.

Simon Thackeray: So they had to stay open. [00:07:55] So did they have all the PPE? Is that why did the Germans have it? And we couldn’t get any. [00:08:00] But I we actually looked at this and Tiff Tiff Qureshi’s got a lot of contacts [00:08:05] um, abroad abroad. And he was we had this big list of what other [00:08:10] countries were doing, and I’d forgotten that Germany would were staying [00:08:15] open. They had to stay. But we seem to be it was almost like dentistry [00:08:20] had been forgotten and that the NHS was so focussed [00:08:25] on the the pandemic aspect which it needed to. [00:08:30] And, you know, we can get on to whether the, whether the, the NHS is, is funded [00:08:35] appropriately, was it funded appropriately to survive a pandemic anyway. Um, [00:08:40] and was it planned, you know, did did the right people plan [00:08:45] the right stuff and did we have enough PPE? Because we knew a pandemic was going to be coming [00:08:50] because we’d had work. We’d had pandemic planning probably ten years previously for a flu [00:08:55] epidemic. Um, but that all seemed to then [00:09:00] just go by the wayside and as if to say, oh, well, we didn’t see this coming. And [00:09:05] dentistry just seemed to be like, okay, we’ll just forget about dentistry because nobody’s going to die from [00:09:10] dental problems. Well, actually, some people did. Yeah. And there [00:09:15] was this huge issue of a lack of a [00:09:20] fundamental, basic part of healthcare because you could gain access to your doctor [00:09:25] somehow.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. Yes. A lot of it was the online stuff. But, you [00:09:30] know, dentistry is a bit difficult to do online. You know, show us your teeth. You can’t [00:09:35] trust a patient sometimes to get the camera in the right place to show you the teeth. So I’m not sure how we were going [00:09:40] to do these kind of online things. And then fundamentally, all you can do is write a Prescription. [00:09:45] And of course, then it was it was interesting that what two years later, [00:09:50] we were all shouted at because the amount of antibiotic prescriptions had gone up. [00:09:55] Well, if all you can tell us to do is write an antibiotic prescription [00:10:00] or refer them into a an emergency centre that [00:10:05] isn’t actually open in some respects, in some in some areas. What do you expect? [00:10:10] Tell us to do something. We are actually I think we were as a profession. We were very obedient. Whether [00:10:15] or not you think that means we were very sheep like and we followed it without questioning [00:10:20] it. I think to a degree we did, and there were people out there questioning it quite a [00:10:25] lot more than even the Bapd did. You know, because we did question [00:10:30] a lot of of why why is that? You know, there is no research.

Simon Thackeray: We realise [00:10:35] the research is being written as a result of what is happening. So you can’t react [00:10:40] to it because you haven’t got any research. But some of the things just seemed illogical. Yeah. [00:10:45] And, you know, to actually close down a fundamental part of the nation’s [00:10:50] healthcare overnight. Yeah. It was the 23rd of March, [00:10:55] wasn’t it? It was a Monday. You shut. Bang. And I [00:11:00] remember that day vividly because I we’d got everybody into work and [00:11:05] I was it was the most emotional thing I think [00:11:10] I’ve ever had to deal with in my professional life, because I wasn’t sure [00:11:15] if I would have a business when I came back. And if I would see any [00:11:20] of these people again, who as a team, you know, I care for my team. I’ve got a very [00:11:25] good relationship with them. And one of my therapists came up to me and she [00:11:30] said, I don’t know how you did that. I don’t know how you didn’t burst into tears through that. And I said, I [00:11:35] don’t know either. And burst into tears, um, because, you [00:11:40] know, there were so many unknowns. And I’m not saying we were unique. You will have had the same kind [00:11:45] of thing as a business owner.

Payman Langroudi: Think of it as exactly the same thing. One of the hardest days of my business life, [00:11:50] and we got all the team together and said before furlough was announced and [00:11:55] we said, look, either everyone has to take a 50% pay cut or we have to lose [00:12:00] half the team. Yeah, because there was no furlough. Our turnover went from I think back [00:12:05] then it was like £30,000 a day to zero. Yeah. Overnight. Yeah. Um, [00:12:10] but I think it’s symptomatic of the fact that, you know, we complain about it all the time as a [00:12:15] profession of where dentistry is as a priority in this country. [00:12:20] And is it possible to change that? [00:12:25] I don’t think we should ever bank on any further cash. No. Centrally [00:12:30] coming to us? Absolutely not. You know, so there’s that. The resources, the resource, the amount of [00:12:35] money coming to us will no, not go up. It probably will go down. Yeah. And [00:12:40] so as a nation, we we as a as a as a population, [00:12:45] we’re not used to saving up for teeth. No. Whereas, you know, cousins [00:12:50] in America, cousins in Germany, wherever they are, you know, your kids braces are something [00:12:55] you think about from the day the kids are born. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: You’re trained.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so we can’t [00:13:00] overnight change things here because the system is set up in a particular way [00:13:05] whereby, for instance, my team don’t get dental insurance with their work. [00:13:10] You know, if there was no NHS, that that would be one of the benefits of [00:13:15] work. And so it’s something that has to evolve. But, you know, if you were the king [00:13:20] of the world. Oh, God.

Simon Thackeray: I bet that would be an interesting concept. [00:13:25] There’d be some interesting things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. If outside of dentistry. [00:13:30] Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Let’s not talk.

Payman Langroudi: Politics. If you were the king of the world, how would you change [00:13:35] things? I mean, we’ve got the regulator.

Simon Thackeray: Okay. We. You have to start with the legislation. [00:13:40] You have to start with the way that dentistry is governed [00:13:45] and provided in this, in this country. And everything [00:13:50] comes from the Dentists Act, because without that, you know, you would just have a free [00:13:55] for all and anybody could practice dentistry. And that it came in as a result of the barber [00:14:00] surgeon kind of thing. The 1923, you know, formalising it. But you’ve got [00:14:05] an act that was written in 1984 and has barely been changed, [00:14:10] unless it’s been for the convenience of the government to bring things in, like registration of dental [00:14:15] nurses and DSPs. I don’t like the term DSPs, but they [00:14:20] change it when they need to change it. But what it hasn’t taken into [00:14:25] account is the way dentistry has developed in the last five [00:14:30] years, let alone the last 30, 40 years that the dentist act has been there. You [00:14:35] know, you have got remote working. I might not agree [00:14:40] with some of the things like remote monitoring of, um, ortho, ortho, but it’s [00:14:45] there and that then needs to be managed, governed [00:14:50] and regulated because otherwise you’ve got this. There’s [00:14:55] a lack of morale within the profession because all the GDC can police [00:15:00] are the people. It’s it has as registrants. It can’t really do a lot [00:15:05] about the other stuff that’s that’s outside its remit. And unless the [00:15:10] legislation has a change to allow it to deal with things [00:15:15] that currently are outside of its remit and also to deal with things in a more [00:15:20] modern manner, like fitness to practice, you’re still going to have these [00:15:25] these problems where the GDC is going to be seen as you know, [00:15:30] it’s it’s a leviathan. It’s a very, very slow thing to change. It’s I think [00:15:35] I’m quite confident. I’ve been quite confident just recently with the [00:15:40] the new incumbent at the GDC, Tom Whiting, and it’s he does seem to have [00:15:45] a completely different view to previous people [00:15:50] in that position, and I’m quietly hopeful. It’s still early days, but [00:15:55] I’m quietly hopeful that he will. He’ll bring this modernisation [00:16:00] kind of thing into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Because, look, the law [00:16:05] is always a bit slower than events.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was listening to your episode, I should say you’re [00:16:10] a podcast host as well for the APD podcast. What’s it called?

Simon Thackeray: Private matters. Private matters. Private [00:16:15] matters.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I was listening to an episode of that where you guys were discussing Smiledirectclub. Yeah. And [00:16:20] you know, the law written in 1984, or let alone 1920 or [00:16:25] whatever. Yeah. Just hasn’t accounted for, you know, things [00:16:30] like that. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: It wasn’t a thing. We’d only just got ZX spectrum, for God’s sake, aren’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:16:35] So? So then that goes down to either it needs to change in a, in a way that is, [00:16:40] is sort of it needs to be lighter touch. Yeah. So you know or [00:16:45] it needs to be quicker to be able to change it. And I mean [00:16:50] would you, would you say it’s a problem with the country as a whole. [00:16:55]

Simon Thackeray: The, the country as.

Payman Langroudi: In, as in are we slow to move [00:17:00] as a country.

Simon Thackeray: I don’t think we necessarily slow to move as a country that slow.

Payman Langroudi: Were we [00:17:05] with the vaccines?

Simon Thackeray: No. No. I think when we need to move quick, we do move [00:17:10] quick. And I think sometimes we might move too quick in some things. Um, and, you know, particularly [00:17:15] when we, you know, we’re still a bit of a warmongering nation and we can move quite quickly when we don’t [00:17:20] like what somebody else is doing somewhere else. But the the priority [00:17:25] of dentistry, I think, needs to be higher in everybody’s [00:17:30] mind. And that’s not just in dentists because it’s all it’s it’s the thing that we always [00:17:35] talk about. My wife’s always saying, God, you only ever talk about dentistry. You’re always, ever doing something about dentistry. [00:17:40] So it’s high in my priorities. Is it high in Mrs. Smith’s down the Road, [00:17:45] who is currently juggling all the other cost of living expenses [00:17:50] and has never really had the [00:17:55] the exposure to the education that they need? And I don’t mean that in a way that they’re not [00:18:00] educated enough, because there’s some very educated people who know very little about the teeth and how to look [00:18:05] after them. Yeah. But I think as a priority, when you’ve got a finite amount of [00:18:10] money and it’s a state run system, you have to look at [00:18:15] how that money is spent appropriately. And is it appropriate to provide [00:18:20] so much for people who can afford to pay [00:18:25] for the treatment? And again, it’s it’s a bit of a, you know, it might make [00:18:30] some of the NHS people listening to this annoyed. But I actually do think [00:18:35] the time has come for us to really face up to the fact that a core service that’s appropriately [00:18:40] funded and targeted at those people who can’t afford [00:18:45] private dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like the urgent care centres they put together during Covid. Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:50]

Simon Thackeray: They should have stayed. Yeah they should. But the problem with that is you’ll [00:18:55] remember when when we had the dental access centres, when Tony Blair promised [00:19:00] everybody have access. And the cost of a single patient visit [00:19:05] was so high compared to the cost of a visit [00:19:10] to a general dentist on the high street. Why? Well, because of all the systems that [00:19:15] are put around it. The fact that it’s a bureaucratically run system. I mean, a dental practice is largely [00:19:20] now a building surrounded with reams and reams of red tape. But [00:19:25] when you start to make it a a situation that’s run by. [00:19:30]

Payman Langroudi: Government facilities.

Simon Thackeray: A government facility. Oh my God, yes, you are going to pay £48 for a [00:19:35] light bulb to be changed, whereas I’m going to send one of the girls down to it. I can’t send them to Wilko any more. But you’d like to [00:19:40] go and get us a light bulb. £0.49 and I’ll change it. You know, when you’ve got [00:19:45] all these layers and layers of bureaucracy and procurement? Yeah, it increases [00:19:50] the costs massively. So the value isn’t there. Plus, in systems [00:19:55] like that, you tend to have people who are salaried. And as soon as you introduce a salaried system into [00:20:00] dentistry, you can watch the access go down. Because effectively this is what’s happened [00:20:05] with, you know, Covid as as the dentists were given certain [00:20:10] amounts of money for different amounts of targeted, you know, to hit, [00:20:15] they would hit those targets. There’s no incentive then to work beyond those targets. So [00:20:20] once you, you know, you’re you’re employed to do eight hours of work a day. You’ll do [00:20:25] eight hours of work in a day. Will you see the same number of patients in those eight hours? Or [00:20:30] will you then suddenly start to do the dentistry at the speed which we were taught to [00:20:35] do it at, and spend half an hour on a new patient consultation, or 50 minutes or an hour [00:20:40] like I have to spend an hour now.

Simon Thackeray: You know, you’ll work [00:20:45] differently so your output goes down. So of course, what happens? Your productivity goes down. [00:20:50] The cost to the government will of course go up per patient visit. So [00:20:55] I think there needs to be a and there needs to be an [00:21:00] appetite, I think for people to discuss more [00:21:05] publicly core service. And I think a lot of people have shied away from it because [00:21:10] I fundamentally believe in the NHS. I’m 100% private, but I believe in the concept [00:21:15] of the NHS to pick up and to care for those who [00:21:20] can’t necessarily pay for it themselves, and a Dental system as a as an emergency [00:21:25] C core. Define it. Write it down on a piece of paper. We used to [00:21:30] have the statement of dental remuneration. You knew what you could do and you knew what you could do it on what tooth. [00:21:35] Whereas now it’s this nebulous thing. All this is necessary to maintain a patient’s [00:21:40] dental health. Well, what does that mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it means nothing.

Simon Thackeray: It [00:21:45] means nothing. But it also means everything. Potentially, you could find yourself in a horrific [00:21:50] situation. And I think that’s why now, when when you look at the fact that the output has gone [00:21:55] down so much, I mean, we’re talking about what 85% of, of [00:22:00] the output that it was before Covid. And a lot of that is because [00:22:05] the contract is now being operated, how [00:22:10] the contract was probably always meant to operate, and that you did have to take on these high needs [00:22:15] patients and you couldn’t necessarily cherry pick the the regular ones. [00:22:20] There is no registration, and it fits the government’s agenda to not tell anybody [00:22:25] that there’s no registration. And because nobody leaves the dentist when they say there’s no registration, because all the [00:22:30] all the patients think they registered, they want to be registered and they would like [00:22:35] to be registered. So if you operate the contract [00:22:40] the way it’s now being operated, you’re going to get this massive drop in [00:22:45] an output. So you’re now measuring the wrong things because you know you shouldn’t [00:22:50] work to targets. The GDC actually makes a stipulation that you shouldn’t have any incentives [00:22:55] or disincentives to work in a certain way, yet they end the entire NHS is [00:23:00] based on hitting targets. Well, is that not an incentive or a disincentive one way [00:23:05] or the other? Look, the.

Payman Langroudi: Reason I ask you about the country as a whole is because, look, [00:23:10] I live here, so I choose I think this is the best place in the world to live. Yeah. So I don’t want to complain [00:23:15] about it. No, but you can find the best [00:23:20] restaurants in the world. In this country? Yeah. Yeah. The [00:23:25] best universities in the world, in this country that you can find the best of [00:23:30] everything. The best dentists in the world. You can find them in this country.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:23:35] if you walk into a random restaurant in this country or a random [00:23:40] education, a school. Yeah, yeah. You can find the best schools in the world in this country. But if you [00:23:45] walk into a random school in this country, the standard will be slightly lower than [00:23:50] the ones you find in comparable countries. Yeah. Now. [00:23:55] And so as a country, we have this skew of the very best. And in the middle, the [00:24:00] middle is, is, is is missing sort of thing. And there’s a bunch at the bottom. [00:24:05] And dentistry has been set up that way as well interestingly.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah I think you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:24:10] got the very best and then we’ve got the NHS underneath. And no disrespect to the NHS. I mean, I couldn’t [00:24:15] manage as an NHS dentist myself. No. Did you ever I mean, [00:24:20] you’re a Yorkshireman. I don’t know. Am I making any assumptions here? Yeah. Please do. Did you. Did [00:24:25] you start left leaning? And now you’re right leaning as a as a person politically. I think I’ve.

Simon Thackeray: Always [00:24:30] been more right leaning, but with the. That [00:24:35] depends how right you you look at it. Because my [00:24:40] family are all working class. I’m the first person in my immediate family, the second person after [00:24:45] my cousin, but the first person to to do a professional degree. Um, [00:24:50] my dad worked his way through from an office post boy [00:24:55] to the director, the financial director of a big refractories company. So he’d gone [00:25:00] from the proper, you know, the lowest of the low job to running [00:25:05] the actual company and a big company at that. So I think I would obviously [00:25:10] picked up some of the right leaning things there. But I’ve still got that socialist [00:25:15] side of me that I believe that you’ve got to look after those less [00:25:20] fortunate. And it’s my [00:25:25] you know, we’ve been given a gift as dentist to be able to look after another [00:25:30] human being. And there’s probably no bigger privilege than doing that, looking after somebody else and [00:25:35] making them better in some way. And I don’t think we should ever forget that. [00:25:40] But I think my my leftness has gradually [00:25:45] disappeared as I’ve seen how badly it’s been used. But that doesn’t [00:25:50] mean to say I don’t support it, and I don’t still have those, you know, those [00:25:55] those feelings. But I would say now I’m strongly in the centre, right. [00:26:00] Not, you know, not radically, but I [00:26:05] can, you know, you’ve got to be careful when you say these things sometimes because, um, you know, you do these little, [00:26:10] that little square thing where it puts you, it puts a spot where your political leanings [00:26:15] are. And I’ve always just been to the right.

Payman Langroudi: Just I think even even [00:26:20] staunch conservatives would say this. They care about those less fortunate. It’s just about how you manage [00:26:25] that. It’s how you do it.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think that we still have the same social mobility now as we [00:26:30] had when your dad went from the bottom to the top? But instinctively I think not. [00:26:35]

Simon Thackeray: I think it’s a different social mobility. I think there’s there’s a [00:26:40] lot. What?

Payman Langroudi: You can become an Instagram influencer.

Simon Thackeray: And is that is. Yeah. [00:26:45] It’s a different it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Democratisation of that. Right.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. That’s that’s a different [00:26:50] way of looking at it I think the traditional way where you would, you know, [00:26:55] my dad was an orphan.

Payman Langroudi: Someone like your dad today in the same situation.

Simon Thackeray: Would. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: Struggle to do what he did.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely. Even even it is sad because even as [00:27:05] driven as he was, he created certain chances and there were certain [00:27:10] chances there for him to actually take. And I don’t think they are the same as they were. [00:27:15] And I think some of this is, you know, the the poles [00:27:20] have got further apart, I think in some ways. And you just sort of said it there. You’ve got the best restaurants [00:27:25] in the world and you could have the worst and we’ve actually got this massive spread. Yeah. I [00:27:30] don’t think it’s unique. I’m not travelled enough to know enough about [00:27:35] many other countries, but I’d say that we’ve got a very, very big spread [00:27:40] of of poverty to affluence. [00:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, and whether that came from the old feudal system or whatever, [00:27:50] I think in the US they have a similar issue. Yeah. But many European countries, the middles populated. [00:27:55] Yes. And they don’t. By the way, uh, we have a distributor in Sweden, [00:28:00] and when he came over said, oh, let’s go to this private members club. And [00:28:05] I said, do you guys have these? And he went, it definitely wouldn’t work over there. I said, why? [00:28:10] And he said, because there’s no cachet in saying you can do something that [00:28:15] someone else can’t in Sweden, whereas here it’s almost like a cachet [00:28:20] thing, you know, like.

Simon Thackeray: This is where you still get to the fact we’ve still got a class system. Mhm. And [00:28:25] you know, I know a lot of what has been talked about recently with regards [00:28:30] the working people and the budget, and [00:28:35] is that a hangover from what’s left of the class system [00:28:40] because you still have this, you know, is there a working class. Yes. [00:28:45] Is there a middle class. Yes. Is there an elite. Yes. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Is there.

Simon Thackeray: Mobility. Is there mobility between? I think it’s quite difficult, I. [00:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Think not, it’s not as obvious in the US. It’s purely about money. Yeah. If you’ve got the money. [00:29:00]

Simon Thackeray: You can be in whatever class.

Payman Langroudi: Whoever you want to be.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Here it’s not purely about money. It’s [00:29:05] a funny thing. It’s about this other thing also like which school you went to, your, sort of your, [00:29:10] your accent, uh, you know, that sort of thing, you know? And it’s a funny [00:29:15] thing about, like, you know, are we going to get out of that? Do we want to get out of that? I mean, is [00:29:20] that what is that what defines.

Simon Thackeray: This totally equitable society? Yeah. That, [00:29:25] you know, there are there are.

Payman Langroudi: Anarchist.

Simon Thackeray: I do yes, I am [00:29:30] a bit of a monarchist. Um, I do believe that. I think that’s the way I was [00:29:35] brought up. I think it’s the way I was brought up. And it’s the it’s. I do like traditions, [00:29:40] and I do like the, the patriotic side of, [00:29:45] you know, as you said, Britain has got the best of a lot of things. It’s also got the best [00:29:50] at organising events like Jubilees. Nobody else does it like we do. And, you [00:29:55] know, part of that comes from the fact that on the other side of my, my family, there’s a [00:30:00] big military background. So when I was young, I would have the stories [00:30:05] from my grandma, whose husband was a Royal Marine, and she’d dance [00:30:10] with Lord Mountbatten and the Emperor of Japan when she was with him on the royal yacht. [00:30:15] So stories like that they may be out of date in [00:30:20] today’s society. Out of date?

Payman Langroudi: Simon, you know I’m from Iran. Yeah. Well, and [00:30:25] the national myth in Iran, every kid is taught we had an empire, [00:30:30] even though our empire was 2000 years ago. Now the UK, [00:30:35] the empire was just the last generation.

Simon Thackeray: I was going to say it’s not that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nothing. It’s [00:30:40] literally your grandfather’s time. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Britain ruled the world in your grandfather’s [00:30:45] time. So I wouldn’t worry about that. You know, as I say, we’re still talking about it 2000 years later.

Simon Thackeray: I [00:30:50] suppose I suppose we can carry on then.

Payman Langroudi: But but but there is a downside to it as well. So, [00:30:55] for instance, I mean, whether or not you agree with Brexit. Yeah. I think it came down to two things. One, [00:31:00] immigration. Yeah for sure. But two, this kind of these stories that you’re telling [00:31:05] about your grandfather talking about the war and which, [00:31:10] you know, by the way, of course he can talk about the war if he was in it. Yeah, but that [00:31:15] sort of general notion that we can’t trust the Germans and the French, um, because of what [00:31:20] happened in the 40s or 30s or.

Simon Thackeray: Whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Was one of the drivers, one [00:31:25] of the.

Simon Thackeray: Drivers of Brexit. I think I think you’re probably right that there is that there’s [00:31:30] that ingrained history, isn’t there? And it [00:31:35] depends how you were, I suppose, how you were brought up. I mean, I was I [00:31:40] was quite open about the whole Brexit thing. Um, and I [00:31:45] think my main issue with it was the setting of our laws abroad. [00:31:50] Nothing to do with immigration because, you know, you’ve got to accept this country is all the richer for [00:31:55] the kind of immigration that we’ve had. Yeah. And I think, you know, [00:32:00] without getting into a lot of the, the deep politics of that, the [00:32:05] the type of immigration that came back in the day when it was, um, [00:32:10] you know, when we were perhaps a little bit less [00:32:15] considerate in the way that we were seen to, to allow [00:32:20] immigration. And by that, I mean taking people out of the countries and bringing them here. Yeah. Um, [00:32:25] the country is better for that. I think when you you [00:32:30] bring in a situation where you look at the size of the country and the infrastructure of the country [00:32:35] and the amount of money that’s in the country, and this is where dentistry sort of fits in as well. Can [00:32:40] you cope with unlimited immigration [00:32:45] when you’ve only got an island? It’s not like we’ve got a bit we can expand into a bit more continent [00:32:50] somewhere. At what point do you not have enough room for [00:32:55] all the, you know, all the immigration that could come in now? [00:33:00] I think we’ve got plenty of room. I don’t know that we’ve got plenty of infrastructure, [00:33:05] and I think that’s the problem. You’ve got schools that are overflowing, the NHS [00:33:10] is failing. This is not all down to immigration. This is down to the multitude of things.

Payman Langroudi: If you look at it from [00:33:15] a financial you’re looking at there, you’re looking at it from a financial perspective. Yeah. When we went [00:33:20] into Iraq, we made money.

Simon Thackeray: By.

Payman Langroudi: Doing that. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Oh yeah. [00:33:25] Wars that we’ve always made money out of wars. I mean, the or.

Payman Langroudi: Afghanistan [00:33:30] or whatever. Yeah. Now part of that is now those people are having to get up and come. Yeah. [00:33:35] So the net net result of the amount of money we made by BP now having all those [00:33:40] contracts or whatever.

Simon Thackeray: They’ve kept it.

Payman Langroudi: And, and and now the issue of these people, these poor people [00:33:45] having to come here. And I understand what you’re saying about resource, but from a European [00:33:50] perspective, we’re not taking anywhere near as many as all the other European countries. No.

Simon Thackeray: But the [00:33:55] other thing is, they’re those countries that have those companies that have made the money, have kept the money. [00:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s going back to the system, not.

Simon Thackeray: Gone into go back to the top heavy.

Payman Langroudi: Bottom heavy. [00:34:05]

Simon Thackeray: System. I mean, you you’ve broadened it there almost into [00:34:10] the fact that there’s the the class system within companies and that you’ve got these [00:34:15] ultra, ultra wealthy companies like you had the ultra wealthy families. Yeah, [00:34:20] yeah. Um, and, you know, it’s all pervasive. It’s across everything. You look at [00:34:25] Amazon. I mean, Amazon came from nowhere, somebody’s garage. And [00:34:30] then in the last sort of, what, 30 years? It’s turned into the biggest company on [00:34:35] the planet. And listen.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying I don’t understand, I fully understand. I did [00:34:40] my jobs in Kent. Right. And I recently went back to Kent. [00:34:45] And I couldn’t believe the demographic change here. I mean, back then, [00:34:50] you hardly saw a foreign face in the town that I, you know, Whitstable or wherever I [00:34:55] was. And now there’s loads and loads of foreign faces. And I can understand the population [00:35:00] getting a bit nervous when, when the doctor can’t, can’t give them an appointment and they fully [00:35:05] get it. And by the way, back when we had the race riots thing. Yeah, my, my my [00:35:10] biggest thing was what is the actual concern of [00:35:15] these people? Rather than saying, oh, these are bigots. Yeah, yeah. The actual concern of those [00:35:20] people is, let’s face it. I mean, you as a family, you’ve managed to progress. [00:35:25] Yeah. Um, as a person, you know, you’re you’re you’re a linchpin of society in Mansfield [00:35:30] or now and hopefully in dentistry. Right. But there’s a there’s a huge number of people [00:35:35] I don’t know the number, but let’s call it 10% of the population who got nothing out [00:35:40] of globalism. Yeah. Nothing out of being part [00:35:45] of the European Union. Yeah. Who? That. That population needs that that concern [00:35:50] needs to be addressed. The one where the guy goes out in the street and starts firebombing [00:35:55] some hotel. Rather than saying he’s a bigot. Yeah. We understand. What is [00:36:00] it? Why this this guy hasn’t been able to progress and come back to that whole thing about [00:36:05] the bottom layer not getting the opportunities in this country.

Simon Thackeray: You’re [00:36:10] probably right, but I don’t know how you would solve something like that because you’re talking, you know, [00:36:15] and you’re also talking about the, the it’s very [00:36:20] difficult to say it without being derogatory, but often those people are not as [00:36:25] intelligent and able to look at the bigger picture, where we can take that picture apart [00:36:30] and we can analyse it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very easy for me and you when we’re benefiting from it, right? But when [00:36:35] you’re not benefiting, but.

Simon Thackeray: We’ve benefited from it right from the beginning [00:36:40] of our education, because the way that we’ve been exposed to education, I had a state education. [00:36:45] Um, and, you know, I wouldn’t have said I was [00:36:50] particularly outstanding in, in anything, but I listened and I learnt [00:36:55] and I wanted to although you didn’t think of it at the time, you wanted to [00:37:00] learn And I do think that the chances I was given is because I wanted to learn, not [00:37:05] because of any other reason other than me. I’ve not been pushed into anything, and [00:37:10] I think there are some people who are maybe not pushed in the same way, maybe because their [00:37:15] parents have not had the chances. But then my dad didn’t necessarily [00:37:20] have the chances, but he made me, I suppose, have the chances [00:37:25] by, you know, preparing me mentally for [00:37:30] learning. And but I think when you’ve got a very simplistic view of the [00:37:35] world and you can’t see the intricacies and the subtleties of how everything interacts, you do [00:37:40] have a very basic view of it and that it can be then, [00:37:45] you know, down to that person’s taking my job. That person is taking [00:37:50] more than they’re putting in. We shouldn’t allow them to do that. And it’s [00:37:55] it’s massively oversimplistic, but it’s possibly the most that that person can understand [00:38:00] the world. That’s their view of the world. And I think [00:38:05] the problem is it’s not just restricted to that level of, of of if you like the.

Payman Langroudi: Old enough [00:38:10] like me to remember. Do you remember single mums?

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Single mums. It’s them.

Simon Thackeray: It [00:38:15] was their fault. It was. I’ve lost count of the number of people’s fault that the, the [00:38:20] crisis in, in, you know, society has been blamed on.

Payman Langroudi: But constantly looking [00:38:25] down here at someone less fortunate. Yeah. Whereas as you say Amazon doesn’t pay tax. [00:38:30] Right. Or you know, if you look it up there’s plenty of abuse going on that isn’t highlighted. Yeah. [00:38:35] Because it’s much easier to sort of. It is.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. Because they can’t always fight back. Yeah. [00:38:40] And that’s it. And they can’t put themselves together in a way that allows [00:38:45] them to then present a concerted, concerted effort. [00:38:50] But I think that’s how society changes. And, you know, this is is this [00:38:55] any different to the 1920s when you had the ultra rich [00:39:00] families, you had the the middle section families and those [00:39:05] who were devastatingly poor and were wracked with disease. Now we’ve probably got rid [00:39:10] of the wracked with disease part of it. But actually, if you look at the the spread of that, that [00:39:15] money, it’s probably in exactly the same way. You’re probably right. It’s probably, you [00:39:20] know, society probably finds a way. And is that down to just the fact that [00:39:25] fundamentally we’re just animals and that we have these basic instincts and that [00:39:30] everything is based around the sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of the competitive nature of.

Simon Thackeray: Existing.

Payman Langroudi: On this planet. [00:39:35] The one plant outgrowing the other one?

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. You do wonder. And then and then you [00:39:40] have, you know, the predatory species that comes along and but then not all predators last [00:39:45] all the time. True. You know people well, not people, but extinction [00:39:50] occurs and changes occur. But you’re still then get a new [00:39:55] order. I don’t think we’ve ever had. I don’t know if the world can exist [00:40:00] as a, you know, a biological structure if everything [00:40:05] was equal. It has those balances. It has the predators that destroy something [00:40:10] it will always have. I mean, I, I used to say probably when I was younger, what [00:40:15] would be interesting is if you redistributed every penny [00:40:20] that everybody earned to every person [00:40:25] in the country.

Payman Langroudi: True socialism, like.

Simon Thackeray: Absolute.

Payman Langroudi: Proper communism.

Simon Thackeray: And proper [00:40:30] communism. And then just let the system [00:40:35] see what happened. And I think you would have at the end of maybe [00:40:40] 2 or 3 generations, with a few exceptions, [00:40:45] the people that had the money originally would probably have got it back. The people who didn’t have it [00:40:50] still wouldn’t have any, but then you’d have some in the middle who would have had the chance to do [00:40:55] something different and taken that chance and grasped it and made [00:41:00] something different of themselves. But I think fundamentally, the balance probably wouldn’t change [00:41:05] all that much, and that the rich would still be rich, the poor would still be poor, and those in the middle still be complaining [00:41:10] about paying too much tax.

Payman Langroudi: But then, look, if your worldview [00:41:15] is that things have always been this way, you wouldn’t be this cat who’s [00:41:20] involved in politics Dental politics. You know, like you, you know, it’s [00:41:25] important that, you know, we could just sit and talk like a talking shop or [00:41:30] whether we can actually make a difference. And I get it. I mean, I’m not involved [00:41:35] in Dental politics here, but I do get it that it’s frustrating to be involved in Dental politics. [00:41:40] Yeah, because of how slow things are to move. Now, where did [00:41:45] that start for you? I mean, you were, I’m guessing just a regular dentist like the rest of us. At what point [00:41:50] did you start getting involved in, you know, how do we do things? And how can I talk up on this? [00:41:55]

Simon Thackeray: I’d always been involved with the BDA. Since when? As a member, since qualifying.

Payman Langroudi: As [00:42:00] a member.

Simon Thackeray: So I’d been a member there and I did a little bit of teaching [00:42:05] in Sheffield back in the the late 90s.

Payman Langroudi: And the university at the university.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. Um, [00:42:10] and my boss there, a guy called Keith. [00:42:15] Figures. Um, he said, why don’t you come to one of the BDA committee meetings? [00:42:20] Council meetings? Because, you know, it would probably be good for you to to understand a [00:42:25] bit about what was going on. And I just thought, yeah, I’ll go along. And that sort of started it. [00:42:30] The next thing was I ended up standing for the representative body as it was [00:42:35] then, and that’s when I started getting a little bit more interested in the [00:42:40] politics side of it. But one of the things that made [00:42:45] me try to get involved was for a while, I sat on the outside. [00:42:50] Prodding at people like [00:42:55] Eddie, Eddie Crouch, who was a fantastic guy, but I would product him [00:43:00] on things like GDP, UK. And he turned around to me one day and [00:43:05] he said, well, why don’t you just get involved? He said, because it’s all right. Sitting on the outside moaning. [00:43:10] Try and do something about it. So you do, [00:43:15] you get involved and then you realise just how bloody difficult it is. And you know, [00:43:20] sometimes when we criticise our Dental politicians, you need to spend [00:43:25] a little bit of time banging your head against the same brick walls as we’re banging our heads against [00:43:30] it to elicit change, because a lot of these things, they don’t want to change. [00:43:35] A lot of these things they can’t change. And then a [00:43:40] lot of the things other people want to change them in a different way, and you’ve got to come up with some [00:43:45] kind of of consensus. And I mean, as you know, as a dentist, put [00:43:50] a treatment plan in front of ten dentists and you’re going to get 45 [00:43:55] different treatment plans, aren’t you? There’s almost.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say 11, but 11. Yeah, but [00:44:00] there’s.

Simon Thackeray: Almost as many ways of solving the dental problems in this country. Yeah. So when you [00:44:05] then try to put that over, there’s all these different opinions. So they all [00:44:10] have to be matched. You’ve then got the fact that it’s okay as an organisation [00:44:15] agreeing what a policy would be. You’ve then got to sell that [00:44:20] to the Department of Health who are not actually in charge, because [00:44:25] the Treasury are the ones who tell them whether they’ve got the money or not. Actually.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: So, [00:44:30] you know, sometimes you’re dealing with you’re not actually dealing with the people who can make any difference. [00:44:35] And I think a lot of the, a lot of the dental politics, [00:44:40] when you get on a round table meeting, there’s a lot of agreement, [00:44:45] there’s an awful lot of agreement. And we agree on more than we disagree on. But [00:44:50] is the right person sat at the head of the table who can do something about it and actually [00:44:55] press the button and say, right, that’s going to change. And that’s not always the easiest [00:45:00] thing to do, because sometimes it’s trying to find that person who is the person who has control of it. [00:45:05] And often it’s the, um, you know, it’ll be the Treasury, but with [00:45:10] things like the GDC, if you wanted to get the GDC to change the GDC in [00:45:15] lots of respects would be happy to change, I think, because [00:45:20] they see their legislation as outdated. Who do you speak to and how much [00:45:25] of a priority is it for them when they’ve got other things on their, you know, in their portfolio [00:45:30] as ministers that, you know, they’re currently dealing with, you know, whatever other health problem [00:45:35] there is in that respect or any other treasury problem. So there’s so many things [00:45:40] vying for so many different people’s time.

Payman Langroudi: In my little world [00:45:45] of illegal teeth whitening. Sir Paul Beresford was very important. He was? Yeah, [00:45:50] he was very important in us as a profession, as a as a as a bleaching sector, [00:45:55] understanding how to affect change. Um, but, you know, it was coincidentally, [00:46:00] he was a dentist and an MP. Yeah. I mean, if we didn’t [00:46:05] have access to to someone who was a dentist, who was an MP, who would.

Simon Thackeray: Have taken that.

Payman Langroudi: On. I mean, [00:46:10] we got nowhere for years and years until he got interested in it. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: And even then, it hasn’t [00:46:15] gone quickly because although you maybe not seeing as many illegal whiteners [00:46:20] they’re still out there, they’re still misleading people.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, it was illegal for dentists to do whitening, [00:46:25] if you remember.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. I was going to say, I mean, the pressure that was put on for us to be able to do [00:46:30] it. Yeah. And the fact that, you know, it’s an accepted form of, [00:46:35] of treatment everywhere else in the world apart from here. Come on. You [00:46:40] know, but again, that just shows you the fact that we didn’t get a change particularly. Or [00:46:45] did we get a it was a statutory instrument adjustment to the dentist Act that allowed it I think [00:46:50] in 20 1212.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas if you remember the UpToDate case was 2001.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah, [00:46:55] it was 12 years. It was it was ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and as you say, I mean, we’ve [00:47:00] got the leftover of illegal whitening. Yeah. That the GDC isn’t dealing with. Well, trying, but not [00:47:05] very well.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. I mean, the problem you have there is you’ll often have dentists that are saying, [00:47:10] you know, the a, r, f is a certain amount and it’ll go up if [00:47:15] they try and chase some of these illegal whiteners. And it’s actually difficult for them to [00:47:20] to hold a case sometimes because there’s got to have been a complaint. Is it an [00:47:25] appropriate use of registrant’s funds? I personally think it is. I think there’s a lot of things that the [00:47:30] GDC should do to put themselves in better light, to show us [00:47:35] as a profession that they’re protecting the the population and protecting patients.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:47:40] I’ve not I’ve not come across it in the UK, but in I happened in Italy. [00:47:45] There’s a major problem with non dentists doing actual dentistry really drilling. [00:47:50] And you know the question should you know it should come up. What would happen if people [00:47:55] started. I don’t know technicians or or non-qualified non-UK you know qualified [00:48:00] just coming in and just going in and starting drilling. Yeah. You’d imagine the GDC would have an interest in that. [00:48:05] You know, they would but but difficult to know for sure right. Well how how they [00:48:10] would. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Until it happens.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean do they have resource let’s say thousands [00:48:15] of these places started opening up. Um, it’s it’s a funny [00:48:20] situation we’re in. Let’s let’s get back to teeth. I mean, I didn’t realise our conversation was gonna go so far. [00:48:25] I was gonna say it did go off on a tangent.

Simon Thackeray: Though, didn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Your first job.

Simon Thackeray: First [00:48:30] job was as a vocational trainee as it was then in Sheffield. Um, [00:48:35] in a, um, a practice just next to the [00:48:40] roughest council estate in Sheffield, so I learned a lot. [00:48:45] Um, and I think the practice is still there. Um, it was a [00:48:50] group of, of 4 or 5 partners, and I think the partners eventually went their separate ways. [00:48:55] That taught me a lot. Um, and but you.

Payman Langroudi: Knew the population, right? You’d [00:49:00] grown up in Sheffield. You’d studied dentistry in Sheffield. Yeah. You knew what you were kind of up against.

Simon Thackeray: I know [00:49:05] I was letting myself in for. Yeah. Uh, it was, it was quite interesting, I think, in my first [00:49:10] week. Um, a lad came in who [00:49:15] couldn’t speak, and I [00:49:20] asked my nurse and she said, didn’t you read the papers? And [00:49:25] I was like, what do you mean? He said he was the guy who he’d got himself as, as was the [00:49:30] thing in this particular council estate. There’d be a pool bike, [00:49:35] like a done up motorcycle that one of the scallies [00:49:40] had got from somewhere, and this guy apparently was racing it around one of the fields, [00:49:45] and the police couldn’t stop him. So the locals [00:49:50] strung up a wire between two trees and and it took [00:49:55] his nearly took his head off. Oh, God. Um, so that was the kind of place [00:50:00] that I, you know, started working in. Um, and [00:50:05] I knew that it was going to be like that, but I thought, you know, it’s going to be a good example of it’s going to be a good experience [00:50:10] for me to get my teeth into to dentistry. Um, but I, I [00:50:15] think I’d probably got ideas there that they [00:50:20] weren’t necessarily, you know, I’m, I’m reasonably outspoken and I think [00:50:25] I was reasonably outspoken then and they didn’t necessarily my, my, [00:50:30] I should have kept my mouth shut a bit more often, I think. Um, so I moved on from there [00:50:35] to another practice in Chesterfield. Um, but that it [00:50:40] never really turned into the job that I thought it was going to turn into because I was taking over [00:50:45] from, um, I was doing maternity cover, basically. Yeah. Um, [00:50:50] so I didn’t have a patient list. So then I moved to another practice. Just local. [00:50:55]

Payman Langroudi: Nhs.

Simon Thackeray: Practice. These are all NHS practices that I did. Virtually no private dentistry [00:51:00] at all. What year?

Payman Langroudi: What year did you qualify?

Simon Thackeray: I qualified in 91. So this was 92, 93, [00:51:05] 94. I then I moved to a practice in Staveley and that’s where I met my wife. [00:51:10] She’s a was a dental nurse. Um, and again I stayed in that [00:51:15] practice. It taught me an awful lot. I’m still in contact with the the guy who [00:51:20] was there, but I was I think my problem was I was always looking [00:51:25] for something that none of the practices could offer me, but I didn’t [00:51:30] know what it was. And it wasn’t money, but it was something, [00:51:35] and it was an intangible thing. And [00:51:40] I think now it was actually to be my own boss, because I [00:51:45] moved to another practice in, in Doncaster and didn’t enjoy working in Doncaster because [00:51:50] I didn’t enjoy the people in Doncaster. There was a different demographic again [00:51:55] to what I was used to in Sheffield, and at the same time this, the practice [00:52:00] that I eventually bought came up for sale and I looked at it and I was going to buy a different practice, [00:52:05] but the figures were somewhat, um, which [00:52:10] was embellished would have been the best way of describing it. Um, [00:52:15] so I bought this practice. Um, basically it was my wife who [00:52:20] saw the potential in it. Claire. My wife. And she said, NHS.

Payman Langroudi: When you bought it, it was.

Simon Thackeray: Entirely NHS. [00:52:25] Oh, really? Um, literally. Well, the figures showed it was entirely [00:52:30] NHS. Um, but I didn’t get all the figures, I don’t think. Um, and [00:52:35] there were lots of things that happened in the first year that were a massive learning curve. Most of the patient records [00:52:40] went missing because there was a technician who worked in the practice as well. [00:52:45] And there was some strange relationship between the boss [00:52:50] and the technician such that the technician was then he then left [00:52:55] as the boss retired. Um, and a lot of the clinical records went missing. [00:53:00] Wow. We’re not sure what ever happened to them. Um, but that was quite difficult. [00:53:05] Um, but I realised then that there was a lot of potential in this practice. Um, because it was big [00:53:10] enough, it got three of.

Payman Langroudi: When you say potential, do you mean as in building [00:53:15] potential, like building building more rooms, or were you already thinking private?

Simon Thackeray: I wasn’t [00:53:20] thinking private at all, but potential. It was potential to just do more NHS dentistry. As [00:53:25] in build it out as in build it out. There were. There were three surgeries in there. Um, but [00:53:30] they weren’t they weren’t well equipped. And one of the intentions was that this, this [00:53:35] room that this technician had was by far and away the biggest room in the practice. So I said, I’m going to have that [00:53:40] as a brand new surgery. I’ll have that, I’ll have that. So I put a brand new surgery in. And [00:53:45] then the plan was within three years to have refurbished all the other [00:53:50] surgeries and get them looking more modern because it was very, very outdated, proper [00:53:55] 1970s decor and equipment. Um, [00:54:00] and within the first nine months I’d had to do [00:54:05] all the refurbishment because everything was just breaking left, right and [00:54:10] centre. Um, and I got a couple of friends from university to work with me part time. [00:54:15] And I went from, you know, one full time dentist to [00:54:20] two and a half full time dentists within a year. And of course, that was the time where [00:54:25] you didn’t have to negotiate. Negotiate. You just open the doors. I’m going to take on some more [00:54:30] patients. And it flourished and it stayed like that.

Simon Thackeray: And [00:54:35] I never really had any intention of going private until [00:54:40] the new contract. And I saw what was in the new contract and which new contract. This [00:54:45] was the 2006, the 2008, 2000, the UDA contract. And I looked at it. I’m like, [00:54:50] I can’t sign that. I’m not going to do that. Yeah. So I made the decision to move patients. [00:54:55] Adult patients. Um, private. All adult [00:55:00] patients, including exempt. I didn’t want to be accused of having a two tier system [00:55:05] within my own practice. Yeah. But we kept kids on. Um, and [00:55:10] that worked quite well. That worked really well. One of the associates didn’t have [00:55:15] as good a conversion because he didn’t speak to the patients. But I’d spent six months [00:55:20] looking at what was going on. This is when GDP UK was was the big thing. Yeah. And you’d see all these [00:55:25] and yes, there were some naysayers and some doom merchants. But actually it really advised [00:55:30] me very, very well what could happen. And [00:55:35] I think the pessimist in me took the negative side. The optimist in [00:55:40] me sort of said, it can’t be as bad as that. And I ended up somewhere in the middle. And so I [00:55:45] did the conversion.

Payman Langroudi: So I was an associate in a place that did a conversion in [00:55:50] 97.

Simon Thackeray: Right.

Payman Langroudi: And I remember then plan [00:55:55] being critical, critical to that as they literally had a plan [00:56:00] for what to do. When was it then planned?

Simon Thackeray: It was I went with practice plan.

Payman Langroudi: So so [00:56:05] did they. Were they kind of holding your hand saying, send this letter now have that conversation?

Simon Thackeray: Yeah, absolutely. [00:56:10]

Payman Langroudi: So what would you say is the critical. I mean, some people will be doing that. Now. What would you say is the critical [00:56:15] point of it? Because my recollection having the team onside.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely [00:56:20] was.

Payman Langroudi: The key thing.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely. If you haven’t got your team 100% on [00:56:25] board with why you’re doing it. Yeah. Forget it. Yeah. And I had [00:56:30] I had one receptionist who had said, if you ever go private, I would [00:56:35] leave. And she’s the godfather. God, Godfather. She’s the godmother to our [00:56:40] son. Um, and we just had our son. Prior to doing this conversion. [00:56:45] And so that would have been a big loss. And she was a big character in the practice. All the patients [00:56:50] knew her. She knew everybody. She would be able to make appointments while she was doing her shopping [00:56:55] in Tesco on a Friday night. And how did.

Payman Langroudi: You manage her?

Simon Thackeray: She understood why I [00:57:00] needed to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Ah, you explained.

Simon Thackeray: It to her. I explained it and I made sure that it was. [00:57:05] The thing is, the patients have always known and the staff have always known. It’s not about [00:57:10] the money for me. It’s about the values that come with looking for another human, looking after another human [00:57:15] being, doing the right thing and doing what I was trying to do. And then hopefully some money will [00:57:20] come as a result of that, but not the other way around. So they [00:57:25] knew that the reason I was going private and that prices would change significantly. [00:57:30] They knew it wasn’t because I was wanting to earn more. They knew it was because I wanted [00:57:35] to do the dentistry that I’d been trained to do. And once you’ve got your staff knowing [00:57:40] that it’s going to be better for everybody, not just you, but [00:57:45] they’re going to get the benefit from it. And the patients particularly are going to get the benefit.

Payman Langroudi: Tricky [00:57:50] financial situation, psychological situation, because the team will be thinking, [00:57:55] this is a place that serves me and my family. Yeah. And then suddenly the thought [00:58:00] process might be, this place isn’t for me and my family anymore.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And so it’s a it’s a it’s [00:58:05] a negotiation that needs to be taken very seriously.

Simon Thackeray: It was very difficult because, [00:58:10] you know, part of your I would say anybody thinking of doing it has got to have a plan B. And part [00:58:15] of that plan B is you get smaller, you actually contract in order to expand again. [00:58:20] And that might mean that you lose members of your team because you can’t support them financially. So [00:58:25] you’ve got to be prepared yourself to have those conversations [00:58:30] and you’ve got to stare it down. You know, you really do have to. There’s a degree [00:58:35] of you’re not playing chicken, but you are staring at that train rolling towards [00:58:40] you. Yeah. And I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Was was there any degree of nastiness? There must have been some right [00:58:45] from patients saying.

Simon Thackeray: No.

Payman Langroudi: Because. Selfish.

Simon Thackeray: We had a little bit. We had more [00:58:50] when we did a children’s conversion in 2021. Um, [00:58:55] but we had a little bit of nastiness. But what actually helped [00:59:00] us was as soon as we told the, uh, [00:59:05] Primary Care Trust or the local area team it was primary care trust, then, um, they’d [00:59:10] already got in the back ground another practice that was going to open as a squat. [00:59:15] So they’d got somewhere to send the patients. And that benefited [00:59:20] these two young guys who had set up this practice, which then went private Anyway, [00:59:25] um, but there was a, there was a, a relief valve, [00:59:30] if you like. So the patients would, they could badmouthed us a little bit and there [00:59:35] was a, there was a little bit. You’re only doing this for the money and most people will, you [00:59:40] know, realise why we’re doing it. Because they’d been seeing me for 6 or 7 years, but not as long as, [00:59:45] you know, I did it relatively early into my ownership of the practice, probably six years in. So I’d not [00:59:50] got as good a relationship as I would have said as I have now, but [00:59:55] they sort of accepted the fact that we can see this coming. I was the first practice [01:00:00] in the area to really do it. Oh, really? Yeah, because Mansfield, Mansfield’s a strange [01:00:05] place. I’ve been there. It’s, um. It’s one of those places that.

Payman Langroudi: Ex-mining. [01:00:10]

Simon Thackeray: Town. It’s an ex-mining town. People are very salt of the earth.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, they. [01:00:15]

Simon Thackeray: Tell you like it is, but it seems to be about 20 years behind everything [01:00:20] that happens in the rest of the world. And I say that in a nice way, Because Mansfield’s been good to me. It’s given me a good career. [01:00:25] But if you look at the peaks and troughs of things like recessions or anything that happens [01:00:30] in world events, Mansfield doesn’t get the peaks and troughs. It gets a ripple, it gets [01:00:35] a little blip, and it’s like boom, boom. And then you carry on again. And [01:00:40] I never realised. But I think that’s what got me through various [01:00:45] recessions and things like Covid because it hasn’t been [01:00:50] that massive, you know. Yes, I might have had a massive peak of success, [01:00:55] but then I would have had a massive drop if if I’d have put all my eggs in one basket. But I’ve never [01:01:00] had that. It’s just been this slow undulation, if you like. Yeah. Um, [01:01:05] and would you.

Payman Langroudi: Say the majority of your patients stayed or a good, good majority?

Simon Thackeray: I couldn’t [01:01:10] keep the majority. Um, I did have good numbers. Stay. Um, I [01:01:15] originally had, I think the practice when I bought it had about 2500 patients.

Payman Langroudi: Give me. [01:01:20] Give me the spiel. What was the spill? What did you say to them?

Simon Thackeray: Oh, God. I’ve got to remember now. I [01:01:25] think when I’d made the decision, it was along the lines of, look, you’ve [01:01:30] been with us long enough to realise now how we want to look after you. The way [01:01:35] things are looking with this new NHS contract, I don’t think I’m going to be able to [01:01:40] look after you and. And look after you in the way that you’ve become accustomed. So the only way [01:01:45] I’m going to be able to do that is to move out of the NHS and offer the treatment privately, [01:01:50] but unfortunately, it probably means I won’t have enough. I won’t have as much space [01:01:55] for as many people. Um, but you will know when I send you the letter, [01:02:00] what to do. And it wasn’t a case of me trying to pressure them into doing it and saying, you [01:02:05] know, you need to act fast. But it was it was truthful. It was, you know, I couldn’t see myself [01:02:10] making that contract work. There were going to be limited places. Over to you. [01:02:15] I’m not going to say to you, you’ve got to sign up. I’m not going to say, I would like you to continue to be [01:02:20] a patient. I’m just going to say, look, that’s the situation. You’ll get a you’ll get a [01:02:25] letter. It’s up to you to do what you do with it. And we had some leave. We had quite a lot leave because [01:02:30] we probably had to. But from a financial point of view, there was no [01:02:35] blip. It took over very much as the NHS dropped. The private [01:02:40] replaced it because we were on a monthly, uh, the monthly kind of plan. [01:02:45] But you were.

Payman Langroudi: Aware of the mixed model at the time?

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. I’d never.

Payman Langroudi: Used it. You [01:02:50] didn’t want to be in the mixed model.

Simon Thackeray: No, I, I think I’d got a [01:02:55] little bit, I’d probably say a bit anti private because I [01:03:00] prided myself on doing high quality work on the NHS and [01:03:05] almost sort of sticking two fingers up and saying, you can do [01:03:10] it on the NHS. You know, I had all digital x rays back then on the NHS, I’d [01:03:15] got intraoral cameras, I was fully We computerised. I’d got everything that [01:03:20] at the time a private practice would have wanted to, to have put in place to differentiate. [01:03:25] So I’d done all that. So part of me was thinking, God, I’m not going to make a success of this because I’ve [01:03:30] got nowhere to go now. And the only way I’ve got to go on this is to actually spend [01:03:35] more time with patients. And some of the patients don’t want you to spend more time because [01:03:40] they just want it over and done with as quick as possible. So I thought, oh, probably not making a good mistake, [01:03:45] a good decision here. This might not work, but it it did. [01:03:50] And I’ve never looked back. And of course I’ve now changed my opinion of that because I’ve realised [01:03:55] that if the system had stayed as it was, I would probably have stayed in it longer. [01:04:00] I would have probably found I was doing more private work, but [01:04:05] I probably wouldn’t have been happy doing it. In order to reduce a waiting list by saying, [01:04:10] well, you can have that on the NHS, but I’ll do it next week privately, but you’ll have to pay private. [01:04:15] I don’t think that would have sat very well with me because in honesty, would [01:04:20] I have done a higher quality? Job, or would they [01:04:25] have just had a different quality material? My crown prep. Would have been the same. My treatment would have been the [01:04:30] same. I only know how to do it one way, so I wouldn’t. Have you know, I’m not saying people [01:04:35] do, but my crown prep is the same. If it was an NHS crown or if it was a private crown. [01:04:40] So I never really saw the point in doing it different. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, you couldn’t have done a one [01:04:45] hour examination.

Simon Thackeray: I have now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: But a lot [01:04:50] of that is, is the fact that you, you at first it [01:04:55] was, it was that it was that mindset change that I [01:05:00] needed to get in, that I do need to spend more time because I’ve got the patients. I’ve got to [01:05:05] justify the fact I am spending more time. Did I find anything more by [01:05:10] spending more time with them? Probably not an awful lot, But [01:05:15] the conversations allowed me to get more out of the patients and allowed me to develop a closer bond [01:05:20] with the patients, and I think that they appreciate that. But actually, it [01:05:25] took me a while before the actual time of which I spent on doing things [01:05:30] increased. And I think a lot of that came about with the change. [01:05:35] More from materials that you would use. Because obviously I did a bit of private. I’d be doing [01:05:40] the odd white filling here and there, but you’d be surprising how many patients. Then suddenly [01:05:45] when you’ve gone private, they actually think you’ve got a different qualification and they suddenly [01:05:50] go, oh, well, now we can do those, those things that I’d never spoken to you about before, but I’d like [01:05:55] all my front teeth, all my new crowns doing again, or my old crowns redoing. [01:06:00] And it’s like, because now you can do those. I was like, well, I could do them before. Why didn’t you say anything before? We didn’t want [01:06:05] to bother you. Well, okay. So I never ended up having to sell anything. It [01:06:10] sort of came in, but it was surprising how the patients thought you were differently qualified [01:06:15] and got you to do different things? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: The number of my users who they [01:06:20] get patients coming from practices saying, I’ve come for whitening, [01:06:25] I’m just assuming their own dentist doesn’t do whitening. Yeah, that’s [01:06:30] a common thing now. When you make that change for [01:06:35] me, for me, the thing about the NHS today, even back then, is [01:06:40] there’s the notion of a third party in between me and the patient. Yeah, they hate [01:06:45] it. They hate the whole idea that there is a third party. You know, there’s me, the patient, [01:06:50] the situation. I don’t want a rule book of any sort, you know, in [01:06:55] between us. Yeah, yeah. Of course. There’s that nice thing about. You don’t need to do marketing [01:07:00] because patients will just walk in there. Is that. Yeah. And, you know, when I, when I went to this, [01:07:05] um, dental groups meeting, ATG meeting, I noticed a lot of these groups have built [01:07:10] the whole business based on NHS next. You know, most of them.

Simon Thackeray: It’s one of the world’s most [01:07:15] recognised brands.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, you know, it’s a funny thing because it’s, it’s [01:07:20] almost the most commercial thing in the world. Yeah. Because you can go get loans. [01:07:25] You can sell goodwill based on it. Yeah. You know, it’s not supposed to [01:07:30] be. Right. It’s it’s a state funded system. Yeah. You know, when when you’re talking multi practice [01:07:35] owners, it’s that’s what they’re that’s what’s grown their practices.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. [01:07:40] Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but the question I was going to ask you was do you have sympathy with people like [01:07:45] young dentists now who definitely don’t want to touch the NHS at all.

Simon Thackeray: Sympathy. [01:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: What do you think of that.

Simon Thackeray: I [01:07:55] sympathy would be the wrong word. What would be the word, I think. Empathy. Empathy? [01:08:00] Yes. I think the, the desire to [01:08:05] do the dentistry that you were trained to do and not have a system dictate how [01:08:10] you do it. Yeah, that is a very desirable thing and is fundamentally [01:08:15] what I’ve done. So I can’t turn around and not support that when it’s exactly [01:08:20] how my career has turned out. And I actually feel [01:08:25] probably more sympathy to the people who find that they are stuck [01:08:30] in an NHS situation that they want to get out of. And again, [01:08:35] I’m not denigrating the NHS. It served me very, very well when I [01:08:40] was. I learnt my trade, I learnt my full mouth rehabs by doing big approval cases [01:08:45] and doing the dentistry that way. I don’t think that’s happening now. It should be [01:08:50] because fundamentally.

Payman Langroudi: Financial sense, but.

Simon Thackeray: It doesn’t make any financial sense. But [01:08:55] you know, I do I do [01:09:00] have a lot of sympathy for those who then feel trapped into that system and don’t know how to get [01:09:05] themselves out of it. Um, because again, you’ve almost come [01:09:10] right back to what we were saying earlier about those in society who can’t get themselves [01:09:15] out of that position.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, I’ve got a friend. He’s not a young dentist. He’s [01:09:20] an old timer, but he’s an associate NHS guy. Right. And [01:09:25] he was telling me I’ve had enough. Um, I want to go private now. [01:09:30] Um, but he’s an absolute expert at [01:09:35] sort of executing NHS dentistry. And, [01:09:40] you know, the notion that the patient might actually have some aspirations of their own [01:09:45] and some ideas of their own and answer back and, you know, all of that stuff, you know, the, [01:09:50] the I mean, he’s, he’s got in his head part of the oh, it’s all about pushing things [01:09:55] on people they don’t need. Yeah. But but he knows he wants to move. But but it’s an interesting [01:10:00] question right. Being a really skilled, fully optimised NHS dentist [01:10:05] who isn’t used to talking to people and giving painless injections and all the nice [01:10:10] stuff. He’s probably in a better situation staying where he is compared to coming [01:10:15] and learning all of that in his 50s or whatever it is. Yeah. Um.

Simon Thackeray: It [01:10:20] would be a it would be a big.

Payman Langroudi: And by the.

Simon Thackeray: Way, step.

Payman Langroudi: By the [01:10:25] way, you wouldn’t manage in the UDA system as a dentist.

Simon Thackeray: No way. I, [01:10:30] I’ve said this. I mean, not least the fact that I’m virtually unemployable if I’m not [01:10:35] doing my own business. I mean, would you employ me? And that’s a question to anybody listening [01:10:40] to this. No you wouldn’t. And that’s probably the reason why I changed jobs so many times. But I [01:10:45] think, you know, there is a place for people like that. But the system has created him [01:10:50] in that respect, and he’s allowed that system to create it. And that’s not a wrong thing, [01:10:55] because he is probably providing a massively good service [01:11:00] to those to those patients and being optimised to [01:11:05] do that is is a fantastic thing and is probably at the peak of his abilities [01:11:10] in the same way that somebody, you know, who has always been private and [01:11:15] is now one of the finest dentists in the UK, is optimised to their own. And [01:11:20] it’s it’s each to their own. There’s got to be places for for every [01:11:25] aspect. It’s like you can go and have, you know, you can go and have your car serviced at the dealer [01:11:30] or you can go to an independent. You’ll pay different. The experience might [01:11:35] be different. Yeah. The the skill of the person might actually be the same. And this [01:11:40] guy probably is skilled enough to do all the other stuff, but [01:11:45] it’s almost like he’s forgotten those extra little bits. [01:11:50] But if he would you take the risk at this [01:11:55] point in your career of then saying, I’ll go for an associate job in a private practice, [01:12:00] would it stress him too much to then suddenly think, [01:12:05] actually, I can do that in 25 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: What about. What about the young dentists who I [01:12:10] was with at the weekend, who are finishing and saying, I want to go straight into private [01:12:15] without the baptism of fire that you had doing [01:12:20] those exempt cases and so on. I think look, I think it’s an interesting question there because [01:12:25] I don’t like it when people say, oh, I made my mistakes on the NHS. Like, [01:12:30] why is that kind of why is that okay? No.

Simon Thackeray: I made as many mistakes [01:12:35] on the.

Payman Langroudi: Privately as I’ve.

Simon Thackeray: Made on the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and so and so, you know, [01:12:40] without any experience going into private practice, you have to worry about that somewhat [01:12:45] as well. Yeah, I’d.

Simon Thackeray: Agree with that. And I think what you’ve got there is a different expectation from your [01:12:50] patients as well, because the patients will immediately bring in. I’m [01:12:55] paying for this. Yeah. If you’ve got a certain demographic of patients that you [01:13:00] know by, by nature of the fact everybody’s paying for the treatment in private than [01:13:05] they are paying for it. Within the NHS system you will get some of them are [01:13:10] paying for it, but it’s a reduced cost and they won’t necessarily appreciate [01:13:15] that. So they will say I am paying for this, but as soon as you introduce [01:13:20] that transaction, your patient potentially wants more [01:13:25] from that transaction. And sometimes [01:13:30] the younger practitioners are not as emotionally ready for that and not [01:13:35] as skilled. And I think we’ve got to be very careful.

Payman Langroudi: In in Australia, [01:13:40] in the US that’s what happens.

Simon Thackeray: It’s all private.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what happens. The guy is [01:13:45] one year out of university with a paying patient.

Simon Thackeray: That population is they [01:13:50] know that our population doesn’t our population probably [01:13:55] isn’t ready for that. And I think, you know, we’re getting into the realms of now our [01:14:00] litigious society, as it’s all too easy for somebody to make your life very uncomfortable by [01:14:05] trying to sue you. And I think a lot of the younger dentists are very, very wary of that. [01:14:10] When I’ve asked them, a lot of them, are you not.

Payman Langroudi: More likely to get sued in the high volume, [01:14:15] low quality stores?

Simon Thackeray: Personally, I think so. Yes, I think so. But I think [01:14:20] it’s perceived and in fact, I think the figures probably I don’t know them, but I think [01:14:25] they probably agree with that is I think you’re less likely to have a GDC [01:14:30] case, and I think you’re less likely to be sued in private practice than you are in the NHS because [01:14:35] of that volume.

Payman Langroudi: Not only the volume. You know, people who like people don’t sue them. Exactly. [01:14:40] And if you’ve got in private dentists, you can give a painless injection. You’ve got the time to become the guy’s friend, [01:14:45] understand and build rapport. You’re less likely to get sued by that patient than in NHS, [01:14:50] where you haven’t got time to say hello and you’re running, running around.

Simon Thackeray: I think [01:14:55] I would agree with that. I think the younger dentists going straight into private practice. I think [01:15:00] they’ve got to go in with their eyes wide open. They’ve got to know where their limitations are.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. That’s [01:15:05] a difficult.

Simon Thackeray: One. That’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult difficulty. Because how many times did you take on a procedure for the first [01:15:10] time and think, oh God, I’m going to muddle my way?

Simon Thackeray: I can remember having a textbook open behind [01:15:15] the patient. I you know, you wouldn’t you wouldn’t dream of doing that now in front of most patients. [01:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: But at the same time, you can’t not go ahead and drill your first.

Simon Thackeray: You’ve got [01:15:25] to learn somewhere.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got to do it.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely. I think there’s an honesty thing there that I [01:15:30] think if you get that conversation with the patients that you’ve got time to have and [01:15:35] you can say, look, I’ve not done many of these, I’d like to try it this way. How do you feel about that? That’s [01:15:40] one way of doing it.

Payman Langroudi: And I find I’ve got a mentor to be a wonderful thing to say [01:15:45] in that situation.

Simon Thackeray: That’s that’s it. Because I do the mentoring obviously in my practice. And [01:15:50] we do a lot of it, you know, by zoom, um, with my, you [01:15:55] know, newest dentist And I think it’s worked well. [01:16:00] What I don’t like is sometimes these ideas where people have said, well, if you see the [01:16:05] younger, less experienced dentist, then it’s almost like hairstylist. [01:16:10] You’re going to see the the the top hairstylist. You pay more for the top hairstylist, [01:16:15] you go for the junior one, you’re paying less. Not sure I like that idea [01:16:20] within dentistry. Why? Because I think if you’ve got a [01:16:25] a cost per hour per surgery, it’s going to be largely the same [01:16:30] for a newly qualified dentist as it is for a more experienced dentist. [01:16:35] So I think you’ve got to be prepared to underwrite that [01:16:40] cost more significantly, which might then not make it viable. [01:16:45] I’d prefer a situation like that to probably be a salaried position, and I [01:16:50] know people are working on that. And younger dentists are saying, right, let’s put you in a mentoring post, let’s give [01:16:55] you a salary. Stick with.

Payman Langroudi: Us for.

Simon Thackeray: Three years. Stick with us for three years. We’ll do this. We’ll sort out your training. [01:17:00] We may pay for it. Whatever. Or we’ll gain the access to that. Training will give [01:17:05] you a good exposure to the right people. And that should [01:17:10] set you up. I quite like that idea. And I think that’s that’s probably one of the ways that things will go forward, [01:17:15] because the other aspect will be, you know, we don’t really know what’s going to happen with employment worker and self-employed [01:17:20] status and Inland Revenue things in the future. So I can see things like that [01:17:25] actually maybe starting to become more formalised and having these formalised [01:17:30] agreements. And I think that’s probably a lot of the younger dentists would [01:17:35] probably like that. I mean, from what I’ve said, I’ve spoken to some of the younger [01:17:40] dentists at the Bapd. They like that idea because they do want to [01:17:45] get into private dentistry. This pathway to private dentistry that we’re doing as a, as a as [01:17:50] a webinar series I’ve never seen so much interest in [01:17:55] a webinar because I get all the emails and I, you know, I’m not [01:18:00] dealing with it, but I’m constantly, you know, there’s there’s hundreds. [01:18:05] So there’s there’s a massive I think the younger dentists don’t see their future in the NHS, and [01:18:10] they’re doing everything they can to prepare themselves.

Payman Langroudi: To. [01:18:15]

Simon Thackeray: To, to skill up.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, we run a course, a composite course, right. And, [01:18:20] you know, I’d say half the people who turn up turn up for their CV, you know, it’s [01:18:25] almost not not the composite bonding is actually, you know, composite veneers are actually [01:18:30] a very common thing in private practice, but they’re perceived to be yeah, they’re perceived to [01:18:35] be. And so people think you need to get that under your belt.

Simon Thackeray: I think they’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: Remember the saline or whatever it is. [01:18:40]

Simon Thackeray: You’ve got to do the bread and butter dentistry because no matter, I think [01:18:45] no matter what happens in dentistry when you have these peaks and troughs of various fads, veneers, [01:18:50] Invisalign, whitening is a constant thing, but to a degree, [01:18:55] you could argue it’s a luxury purchase. In some.

Payman Langroudi: It’s discretionary.

Simon Thackeray: It’s a discretionary purchase. [01:19:00]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, when I spoke, I was speaking to people at BCD and at the private dental awards. Private [01:19:05] dentistry awards. And the only happy people. Dentists are the ones who [01:19:10] have the baby boomer demo. Yeah, the bread and butter ones. Everyone else is [01:19:15] is screaming pain my butt. But the baby Boomer demo, which basically [01:19:20] is bread and butter dentistry, that is it.

Simon Thackeray: You get good.

Payman Langroudi: At the bread and butter.

Simon Thackeray: Dentistry, even if it’s [01:19:25] that. If it’s just doing composites, Crown and bridge. It’s not all Invisalign [01:19:30] and composite bonding because eventually that market will [01:19:35] probably disappear or change in the way that the the ear to ear veneers back [01:19:40] in the the the 90s was a market that’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: But interestingly, [01:19:45] Simon, I find it very interesting that, you know, nowadays you’re just as likely for your waitress in [01:19:50] your in a restaurant to be wearing Invisalign. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day, when we [01:19:55] used to talk about eating veneers, it was like rich people sport. Yeah. Yeah. And so cosmetic [01:20:00] dentistry is now gone. If you like. Downstream. Yeah. It’s [01:20:05] almost like something that anyone can aspire to.

Simon Thackeray: I think there’s a risk that it’s. [01:20:10] Dentistry has been too commoditized. Yeah. And that then people see that as [01:20:15] a, um, you know, the customer, the patient sees [01:20:20] it as a product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. As in saying give me composite veneers.

Simon Thackeray: Exactly. Give me Invisalign. [01:20:25] It’s a thing I need composite bonding. Yeah. You know, composite bonding is a thing. [01:20:30] It’s not. You’re going to a composite bond to a specific tooth. No. Composite bonding is a thing. [01:20:35] Um, and we’ve commoditized dentistry so much that sometimes [01:20:40] we then lose sight of what we actually do, which is a health based thing. And I’m all [01:20:45] for treating someone’s mental health and their esteem, but actually, [01:20:50] fundamentally, what I was taught to do was to look after their general health [01:20:55] via the medium of their teeth. And of course, we’re at risk, then, [01:21:00] of missing all the other bigger things that are occurring in dentistry, which is, you know, the incidence of [01:21:05] heart disease, things like diabetes. Should we be doing a lot of these big, heavy [01:21:10] duty, full mouth rehabilitations in an ageing population [01:21:15] who have got a higher percentage of, um, you know, institutionalisation as their older [01:21:20] not being able to look after it and certainly not able to look after their implants. I mean, these are massive ethical [01:21:25] conversations. So at one end of the scale, training people up and doing [01:21:30] Invisalign and composite bonding is great in the short term. In the long term, [01:21:35] we’ve got to look at the impact we have as a profession on people’s general health [01:21:40] and what we can do to, you know, to maintain and [01:21:45] solidify our position as healthcare workers and not just cosmeticians if that’s if [01:21:50] that’s a word.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I think I think what’s crazy is if you go and talk to 100 people in the street, [01:21:55] they will know that brushing your teeth is important. They’ll know that not eating [01:22:00] sweets is important, but they won’t know that the frequency of the number of times you [01:22:05] know as a profession.

Simon Thackeray: How you eat those sweets.

Payman Langroudi: As a profession. We didn’t manage to get that [01:22:10] one piece of information. The key piece of information out. You had.

Simon Thackeray: One job.

Payman Langroudi: I’m. [01:22:15] I know we’re running out of time a little bit, so I want [01:22:20] to get to a really key question. Go on.

Simon Thackeray: Then.

Payman Langroudi: What grind your gear is the most about dentistry. What pisses you [01:22:25] off?

Simon Thackeray: What pisses me off about dentistry? I think most recently, [01:22:30] I don’t like the the [01:22:35] way that it’s becoming commoditized. And there’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s an attachment [01:22:40] to then avarice. It seems to be greed. It’s not about better. It’s [01:22:45] about more and more and more and having more and, [01:22:50] you know, I’m all for success and I’m all for.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not [01:22:55] very right wing. What you’re saying.

Simon Thackeray: No, it’s not is it not? Well, actually no, [01:23:00] you asked earlier. I’ve gone back the other way again. But I think, you know, I’m all [01:23:05] for I’m all for success. But not everybody can have that success. And I think you’ve got to be honest where that success [01:23:10] comes from. Um, I think some people [01:23:15] in the. And I don’t think this is a new thing. I think it’s always been the case, [01:23:20] but I think there is a degree of flexibility of ethics that allow [01:23:25] some people to do things and think they get in a way. They’ve got a they’ve got a cognitive dissonance [01:23:30] that they think they’re doing the right thing. But actually, if you’re really honest with yourself, [01:23:35] you’re possibly not.

Payman Langroudi: Let me tell you the most criminal thing I ever heard. [01:23:40]

Simon Thackeray: What’s that?

Payman Langroudi: This guy. There was a time where gold inlays were paid for by the NHS, if you remember. [01:23:45]

Simon Thackeray: Yes, this.

Payman Langroudi: Guy went to the Jewellery Quarter with a [01:23:50] giant, uh, cylindrical shaped, uh, burr and said, make [01:23:55] me a gold rod in this shape. Exactly this shape, a long gold rod. [01:24:00] And then he you can you know what? You know where I’m going. You know where I’m going with [01:24:05] this. Yeah. And then he put the gold rod in and cut it off. Gold inlay. And [01:24:10] he would pay and, you know, into all the, the foci.

Simon Thackeray: Of the book.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because [01:24:15] I.

Simon Thackeray: Mean.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got to buy the criminal, criminal, criminal [01:24:20] mind.

Simon Thackeray: They’re always gonna be someone who sees the way around that. But I think [01:24:25] what’s made it more visible is social media. And I think [01:24:30] social media is sometimes it’s a great tool in some respects [01:24:35] than in others. It’s very damaging. And it gives you a.

Payman Langroudi: Social media because social [01:24:40] media, you know, it’s everything, right? It is.

Simon Thackeray: It is everything. But it brings out. But it’s. [01:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Everything.

Simon Thackeray: It puts it out there. It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like saying. It’s like saying there’s paedophiles on [01:24:50] social media. Well there.

Simon Thackeray: Is well, absolutely everything.

Payman Langroudi: Is on social.

Simon Thackeray: Media. Whether there are any more than there ever [01:24:55] have been or whether they we just know that there are more.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, maybe you’re saying, [01:25:00] correct me if I’m wrong. Maybe you’re saying some young dentist sees a line, bleach blonde only [01:25:05] coming out of some successful Ferrari driver and decides that’s all he wants to do? And is [01:25:10] that why is that bothering you?

Simon Thackeray: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Does that bother you? Because for me, it doesn’t really bother.

Simon Thackeray: Me that much. It doesn’t bother [01:25:15] me, but it’s not really what I wanted to do dentistry for. And it’s. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: Not. What I’m saying is the next man is an endodontist. He only does Endo. Yeah, yeah, this guy only does this. [01:25:25] I’m fully focussed on hydrogen peroxide.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah, yeah I think I’m more [01:25:30] live and let live now. And I think since Covid certainly I’ve been [01:25:35] more live and let live. But I think I’d like our it’s [01:25:40] a bit of a Probably rose tinted spectacles kind of view. I would like [01:25:45] our profession to be fully professional in its [01:25:50] in the way it carries itself and what it does, because I think we can damage a lot [01:25:55] of the public’s perceptions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but look.

Simon Thackeray: By our actions. [01:26:00]

Payman Langroudi: Being a professional in the end I think is about what you do when no one’s looking. [01:26:05]

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s integrity.

Payman Langroudi: I know what you mean about [01:26:10] the public’s perception. Yeah. But I’d say that that’s where our associations [01:26:15] and things have failed with, you know, the public’s perception is something where, you know, single dentists can’t make [01:26:20] a massive difference. No. Um, one more question. Go on then. We like mistakes on this [01:26:25] pod. What comes to mind when I say what was your biggest clinical mistake or your most [01:26:30] difficult patient?

Simon Thackeray: Most difficult patient? I’ve had lots of [01:26:35] difficult patients. Um, some of them. I [01:26:40] can’t always remember because I tend to try [01:26:45] and forget them. Biggest clinical mistake. I will actually freely admit this one. I had a [01:26:50] lovely patient who came in to see me for some orthodontics, [01:26:55] and she’s got two very buccally placed lower canines and a previous [01:27:00] associated aligned her upper teeth because she’d got two really buccally placed upper canines, [01:27:05] and he’d taken the upper canines out and she’d gone. Basically, he’d aligned [01:27:10] the upper teeth she now wanted the lower teeth doing. Yeah. Um. In [01:27:15] fact. Am I getting it right? Anyway, [01:27:20] it’s almost irrelevant. So I saw this patient [01:27:25] on behalf of one of my associates, and and I talked through the the treatment [01:27:30] plan, really thoroughly discussed the treatment plan. And in a [01:27:35] slightly unusual treatment, decided we’ll take out these massively buccally placed [01:27:40] lower canines and we’ll just align very simply, very quickly. [01:27:45] The rest of the teeth, because there wasn’t any space for these canines. But for [01:27:50] some reason I’d left on the clinical charting the extractions [01:27:55] on the fours, because that was the other option. We take the fours out [01:28:00] and retract the threes or we take the threes out. So on the clinical charting I’d left [01:28:05] the the so easy for that to happen.

Simon Thackeray: And but [01:28:10] massively in the nose it said lower threes everywhere. It said lower threes. And [01:28:15] she came in and my associate was was treating [01:28:20] her because I didn’t want to take these two threes out because they were horribly placed. And I [01:28:25] wouldn’t have been able to get them out. And and about five minutes later I get this [01:28:30] urgent knock on my office door. Um, the fours have been taken out [01:28:35] and the patient’s kicking off. She’s just realised. And [01:28:40] I basically said, right, that’s entirely down to me. I’ve got the highest charting, [01:28:45] I’ve conveyed the information incorrectly. Let’s deal with this and manage it, [01:28:50] because it’s at the time it was a never event. So first thing [01:28:55] I do is manage the patient there and then you’ve got a distressed patient, you’ve got a distressed [01:29:00] mother. And one of the reasons the mother was so distressed is she’d had a clinical [01:29:05] negligence at birth from one of the one of her sons. So she knew about [01:29:10] medical negligence. And it had gone horribly wrong with this birth of a son who was also a patient. [01:29:15] So the first thing I did was apologise. This is what’s happened. Had you known.

Payman Langroudi: Her for years or [01:29:20] was she kind of. Had you known.

Simon Thackeray: Her? She’s relatively new, but I’d known the son. I’d been treating the son [01:29:25] for quite a while. So there was a relationship there. Um. And the [01:29:30] first thing I did was like, we need to sort this out. I’m going to deal with this. I’m [01:29:35] accepting full responsibility. We will sort this out. There is no charge for this orthodontics. We’re going [01:29:40] to sort this quick phone call to the guy who taught me, [01:29:45] um, Jonathan Sandler explained the situation in full and [01:29:50] he said, you know, is your associate one of the good guys? I said, well, yes, [01:29:55] he’s in the you know, he’s in the staff room in tears. That’s, you [01:30:00] know, how hard it’s it’s hit. Uh, it says, right, send the patient down [01:30:05] now, send the patient down. We then managed everything [01:30:10] else, such as, you know, bunch of flowers apologising. There’s no chance of replanting these teeth. [01:30:15] Um, and sent the patient down to see Jonathan, and I [01:30:20] said, I will you tell me how much this is I’m paying for this. And [01:30:25] he said, don’t worry, we’ll sort it out. The same day [01:30:30] she’d got the fixed appliance on, he put the appliance on. He said [01:30:35] those threes, I can get them into position and I will do a better job than you would have done. [01:30:40] And I went, I know. But I knew you were going to say that. And [01:30:45] the upshot is the whole management of that what annoyed [01:30:50] me, I rang my indemnifies and said, this is my mistake. [01:30:55] I’ve basically put on that chart in and they said, no, it’s not. No, it’s not your mistake. It’s your [01:31:00] associate’s mistake. And I went, well, I’m going halves on this. Well, we won’t [01:31:05] support you on that. And that’s when I first realised that, you know, Indemnifies were not all they were [01:31:10] made out to be. But the upshot is, she ended up with this perfect smile [01:31:15] with these beautifully aligned lower canines. No legal [01:31:20] outcome from it. And she [01:31:25] she stayed a patient. She’s moved away from the area now. But a brother still [01:31:30] comes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good one and takes the.

Simon Thackeray: Mickey out of me for doing.

Payman Langroudi: It. It’s a [01:31:35] good one. There’s a learning point there of.

Simon Thackeray: Massively triple.

Payman Langroudi: Check everything. And if things go wrong, do [01:31:40] now. If things go wrong, manage it properly, admit it and manage it properly in [01:31:45] under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t accept that one because that one went too well. I kind of wanted one that went worse, [01:31:50] but it’s not normal because we’re running out of time. We’re running out of time. Unfortunately, you’ve [01:31:55] got a train to catch.

Simon Thackeray: I have, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’re gonna have to finish with the usual questions. [01:32:00] Okay. Um. Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. [01:32:05]

Simon Thackeray: Three guests, dead or alive. One of them is going to have to be John Bonham. Who’s that drummer [01:32:10] from LED Zeppelin? Oh, we.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t even get into your drumming. Drumming? That would be like.

Simon Thackeray: The tuba [01:32:15] lights. Yeah, yeah, I would have to have John Bonham there. Yeah. Um, just to [01:32:20] basically wash his capacity for drink, probably. [01:32:25] Um, and then I think it’s probably a bit of an emotional [01:32:30] one. I’d probably want my dad there because he died a few years ago. Um, but if I could combine [01:32:35] my mum and dad as one. Sure, sure. I love my mum and dad as one. My mum died. No, my mum died, [01:32:40] um, just after I qualified. So I think I would like to them [01:32:45] to have seen my success, if you like, if you want to measure [01:32:50] it as that. And then, you know, my wife would probably say well me as well. That’s [01:32:55] a, that’s an aside. She’s going to be at the dinner party. So if I had somebody else. No.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:33:00] joking. Oh, God. No, I’m glad you said that. Joking me. Um.

Simon Thackeray: Another one. [01:33:05] Dead or alive? I think it would have to be [01:33:10] my maternal grandfather who [01:33:15] was the Royal Marine. Oh, because he died in 1952, [01:33:20] well before I was born. But the stories that he had, [01:33:25] he was arguably probably the most unlucky Royal Marine out because he [01:33:30] he was in Gallipoli at the landings in [01:33:35] the maelstrom of what happened. They’re told to get back on the boat. And the boat [01:33:40] took him to the Somme where he got blown up. So out of the frying pan into [01:33:45] the fire. But if he hadn’t got blown up at the Somme, he wouldn’t have met my grandma. So then I wouldn’t have been here. So. [01:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: And those family stories you want to hear firsthand? I want to hear.

Simon Thackeray: Them firsthand because I want to ask some.

Payman Langroudi: Deep. [01:33:55]

Simon Thackeray: Deep questions. So it’s not famous people other than John Bonham, but I don’t think [01:34:00] John Bonham would fit in with my mum and dad and granddad. That would just be, oh my God. [01:34:05] An eclectic mix. I like.

Payman Langroudi: That. The final question [01:34:10] is a deathbed question.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, surrounded by your [01:34:15] loved ones. Yeah. And you can give them three pieces of advice. What would they be?

Simon Thackeray: Don’t [01:34:20] get as stressed as I get about the little things. Look at [01:34:25] it. The worst that can happen hasn’t happened, although it probably is to me at the moment because I’m [01:34:30] on my deathbed. Um, but don’t you know I have [01:34:35] spent too long, too much of my life worrying about stuff that hasn’t happened and probably wouldn’t happen. [01:34:40] But that’s my character, so that’s the first one. Um, [01:34:45] the next word of advice. Follow [01:34:50] your dreams. Don’t let anybody try and put you off. I’m sure other people have said this, but it was [01:34:55] one thing that I, and possibly in this career, not because I followed [01:35:00] my own dreams, but because I did what the expectation [01:35:05] was from my family. If I’d have followed my dreams, I would have been a musician in the Royal Marines. But I wasn’t good enough. [01:35:10] But if I’d had known that I needed to be better, I would have probably spent more time doing that. [01:35:15]

[TRANSITION]: To a degree.

Payman Langroudi: Of regret on that. Oh, there’s a.

Simon Thackeray: Massive degree of regret, really, a huge degree. I [01:35:20] would I think I would have got out of that a lot more potentially. [01:35:25] Um, and then the final one. Honesty [01:35:30] and integrity. Just be the best person. [01:35:35] Do what’s right when nobody’s looking. And. And I think, you [01:35:40] know, if I’m having to say it on my deathbed, it’s probably too late. Uh, I’d like to think [01:35:45] that that is what I’ve brought my son up particularly, um, [01:35:50] to think, because we’ve only got the 111 child.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, did you want him to be a dentist?

Simon Thackeray: No, I didn’t. [01:35:55]

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t want him to be. I didn’t. You didn’t? No.

Simon Thackeray: Not specifically. I basically [01:36:00] said to him, you do what you want to do. I don’t have any preconceived ideas. And he’s. He doesn’t [01:36:05] like the scientific side of dentistry and dealing with blood and things like that. So he’s [01:36:10] doing an archaeology and ancient history degree with a view to joining the Navy as an officer. [01:36:15] So he’s going to get back into that military side of things. Is he a.

Payman Langroudi: Drummer as well?

Simon Thackeray: Yes he is. [01:36:20] And a and a saxophone player. And a bass guitar. He’s a far better musician than I’ll ever be. [01:36:25] Um, so. But it would be about doing the right thing. I love.

Payman Langroudi: That. [01:36:30] Thank you so much. It’s been a massive pleasure. I wish we could have kept going, but, [01:36:35] um, you’ve got a train to catch.

[TRANSITION]: I have, yes, I have.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so.

[TRANSITION]: Much for coming. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:36:40] is Dental. Leaders the podcast where [01:36:45] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:36:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:36:55]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:37:00] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking [01:37:05] through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got [01:37:10] some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:37:15] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, [01:37:20] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by the Enlightened Comfort pen sensitivity seems to be the biggest [00:00:05] issue in whitening. And you know, we’ve been working on it for a whole year now. The Comfort pen is a [00:00:10] bioglass potassium nitrate carbon pole pen. Pair that together with enlightened [00:00:15] serum, with any whitening system, and I guarantee you it’ll be [00:00:20] a much more comfortable experience. The enlightened comfort pen. Have a look at it on our website, enlightened Wspa.com. Let’s [00:00:25] get to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders the podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:50] safe Moqadem and Louis al-Masri, two dental students who [00:00:55] are making waves. I want to go through both the Dental student experience [00:01:00] and the waves that you guys are making with the UK Dental [00:01:05] students group. Um, nice to have you. Good.

Lwai Almasri: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:01:10] an interesting story. You both knew each other before you even got into dental school.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, [00:01:15] more or less. We did. Yeah. And you’re both at King’s.

Payman Langroudi: And did you start out in the same year?

Lwai Almasri: No, [00:01:20] no. Funnily enough. So did you know he’s got a story with that?

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Okay. Go on, go on. [00:01:25]

Saif Mukadam: I’ve got the most random story when it comes to getting into dentistry. So after GCSE. [00:01:30] So I went to a completely different school to him in terms of like secondary schools. And we met like at college, [00:01:35] but after secondary school GCSEs I left school and pursue football. [00:01:40] This is um yeah. So I played full time football as an apprentice for a club in Birmingham, [00:01:45] well, outskirts of Birmingham called Walsall. And, um, yeah. So I got given that apprentice like, [00:01:50] I don’t know, under 13 so very early. Usually get, get it under 16. So I got like three years early. [00:01:55] So I always knew I was going to be going down this football route. So I played my football, did my [00:02:00] two years. I loved it the best time of my life. I mean, as good as dentistry is. And yeah, like, [00:02:05] there was nothing like waking up in the morning, playing football, coming home, going to sleep, eating food, [00:02:10] whatnot, and just doing it again over and over again. Don’t get me wrong, it’s stressful at times. You know, professional [00:02:15] environment and whatnot. But yeah. But unfortunately, you didn’t get my pro contract, so [00:02:20] I was left to the education route. That’s what I did, my GCSEs. Made sure I did well in them. So [00:02:25] I went back, did my A-levels. And this is the college that I actually went to. Um, we didn’t go at the [00:02:30] same time because obviously he’s in his year group, but, um, yeah. So we met [00:02:35] my second year, I think it was. Did you come? He gave a talk about how to get into dental school. [00:02:40] Oh, so.

Lwai Almasri: I was already at dental school at this point, and Saif was at the school that I had, that I [00:02:45] was at before. Yeah. And I was invited back to give a talk on, like, to, like the medic and [00:02:50] dental students on, like applying to medical dental school, like the interview process, some advice at uni [00:02:55] and whatever. And Saif safe was in the in the audience. In the audience.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. So I reached out to him afterwards and, um, [00:03:00] turns out his little sister actually went to the same time she was.

Lwai Almasri: So she was in the year below him? [00:03:05] Yeah. Whilst he was there. So then.

Saif Mukadam: So I spoke to her a few times and I realised that he was the one that gave the talk. [00:03:10] So I dropped him a message, whatnot, and gave me ample amounts of help getting into dental school and whatnot, all these [00:03:15] random gems of advice and got to speak into him. So then I got in to King’s and, [00:03:20] um, obviously spoke to him and whatnot, and he’s just been like mates. And you were.

Lwai Almasri: Deciding between King’s and Manchester, if I.

Saif Mukadam: Remember. [00:03:25] Yeah, yeah. So so I, um, initially I got rejected from both Liverpool and Brum, so [00:03:30] I was a bit I thought I did quite well in those. Well, not Brum, but Liverpool. I thought I did quite well in so I was a bit disheartened. [00:03:35] But then I got my offer from King’s, which is obviously a top uni. Um, you know, there’s [00:03:40] not really much I need to say about King’s and I didn’t really get a reply from Manchester. [00:03:45] So I was, you know, weighing up whether to wait for Manchester or withdraw [00:03:50] from King’s. So I spoke to him, got a bit of advice and realistically, [00:03:55] the grades were never the issue. So I was always, you know, quite intelligent in terms of [00:04:00] A-levels. I always was top of my work because I was a lot older. I was 18, 19, 20in my [00:04:05] second year of A-levels. I wasn’t really into the, you know, college lifestyle and chilling with [00:04:10] people and whatnot. So I was always just doing my work, doing my own thing, and it was never [00:04:15] really an issue. So I knew I was going to get the grades.

Saif Mukadam: And then so it was just the office and I [00:04:20] wanted to go to Manchester. I support Man City, so there’s a lot of there’s a lot of pros for Manchester [00:04:25] for me. Like, you know, it’s a it’s a quieter city than London. London’s always busy [00:04:30] at all times. Yeah. Especially with Kings as well. Right next to you. London Bridge is the shard [00:04:35] and whatnot. It’s it’s busy at all times, but Manchester is a bit more laid back, I’d say [00:04:40] personally. And, uh, there’s a lot of other pros for me. My sister lives [00:04:45] in, you know, where Stoke is? Yeah. Junction 15. So that’s like a 40 minute drive from from Manchester. [00:04:50] So, you know, if I ever had a nephew or niece, that’s a nice little drive. Can visit them whenever I want. It’s a bit further [00:04:55] for London. It’s doable. Yeah. So there was a lot of pros for Manchester, but in the end, [00:05:00] there was no point in waiting for a reply that might not even come. And [00:05:05] so I decided to withdraw from Manchester firm Kings. And, you know, now I’m here. [00:05:10] The rest.

Lwai Almasri: Is history.

Saif Mukadam: I think it’s yeah, it’s a great decision.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting few things you bring up there. Right. My son’s [00:05:15] going doing his final year A-levels now.

Lwai Almasri: And.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really pushing [00:05:20] him to leave London.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but then you guys didn’t start out in London. But [00:05:25] the London student experience is. I mean, London. Even if you’re a multi-millionaire, you’re in trouble. [00:05:30] Yeah. Let alone it’s so expensive.

Lwai Almasri: It’s so expensive. Expensive. And. [00:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: And you almost feel irrelevant, whoever the hell you are. It’s true. Whereas I was. I was in Cardiff. [00:05:40] Right? And you know, Dental school. The the holidays are much shorter, right? When the other students would [00:05:45] leave, you’d feel it massively like some, some, some restaurants and [00:05:50] things were shut down, like the takeaways, the taxis, everything would be totalled. So the students [00:05:55] were such a big body in that town that, you know, you felt important as [00:06:00] a student there. But I’m interested in your story. First, Saif, regarding [00:06:05] Knockbacks. Yeah. So because you’re kind of a high achiever, right? [00:06:10] You kind of, you know, by getting into that academy in the first place. Yeah. When they told you you’re not going to [00:06:15] be a professional footballer. Yeah. Was that really tough or. No. It was. Does everyone know it’s [00:06:20] so hard to get in that you were half expecting or what.

Saif Mukadam: Were your thoughts? So I think in my year group there [00:06:25] was 14 of us. So they obviously they gave out a certain number of pros every year. So the previous year they gave out this [00:06:30] is my the year before me, they gave out like three pros. Whereas in my year group, out of the [00:06:35] 14 players that were in my year group, they gave out one pro, which is, you know, one out of 14. That’s the [00:06:40] odds are crazy. Like it’s so hard to become a professional footballer. And even then [00:06:45] all the players in my group, the ECR group above me, the year group above them have [00:06:50] all been released by now. In terms of professional level. They no longer play league football, they play non-league, you know, [00:06:55] and the vanarama. Step one, step two, which is again, that’s very good quality, don’t get me wrong. But again, [00:07:00] it’s not professional football. So like I knew I thought I had a good chance. Like [00:07:05] I was one of those ones where I could have got given a pro, but two years down the line would have got released like it would [00:07:10] have been one of those ones where I would have enjoyed the pro lifestyle for 1 or 2 years, played [00:07:15] my football, done what I love because honestly, I would go back to it in a heartbeat. I would have taken those two years [00:07:20] over anything like that. I can’t really put into words how much I enjoyed playing [00:07:25] that football over the time that I was in my apprenticeship. I mean, the stress levels [00:07:30] are ridiculous, but like, there’s something to it. Like playing football day in, day out. What you love, what I’ve grown [00:07:35] up with from a six year old like little, little child playing football in the back garden with my dad to [00:07:40] playing in front of fans in an FA Youth Cup game, scoring a goal, celebrating in front of them [00:07:45] like there’s nothing quite beats it. Like, you know. It.

Payman Langroudi: So the psychological blow was [00:07:50] crazy.

Saif Mukadam: It was mental. So the first, like I’d say week or two. Even the first month, [00:07:55] it was just because obviously I had the chance to play in exit trials and whatnot to [00:08:00] get into another club. But the likelihood of getting into a club after that is slim, [00:08:05] because not only am I from, you know, a League Two club, which is Walsall, you know, the [00:08:10] likelihood of going up from exit trial is very, very slim. Like you never hear of it and [00:08:15] exit trials as well there. You know you can hit and miss, you can play amazing in them or you can play [00:08:20] absolutely horror. And I didn’t play too bad, but everyone’s for themselves in an exit [00:08:25] trial. They want to impress. They want to get to you. They want to get to a club. They’re doing their own thing. Not many [00:08:30] people speak to each other. It’s always like, I want to get there. It’s it’s understandable. You’ve got to be selfish [00:08:35] in football. You’ve got to. If you don’t do that, you’re not going to win. Think about Ronaldo, for example. That has been he’s one of the most [00:08:40] selfish individuals when it comes to football. But it’s admirable because look how far he’s got.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, [00:08:45] like I don’t need to speak much about Ronaldo. I mean, he’s one of my my my, like, somebody [00:08:50] I. I aspire to be. Yeah. A role model for me back in the day when I was playing. [00:08:55] Even now, his mindset, everything that he does is crazy. I’ll get to that later. But realistically, [00:09:00] it was a blow that first month after the exit trials. I didn’t get anything back from them. [00:09:05] It’s like, what am I doing in my life? And I knew I was going to go back to education, A-levels, whatnot. [00:09:10] Yeah. But like, no more football. It’s going to be education more based, like semi-pro here [00:09:15] and there. It’s not the same. But I know with dentistry as well, it’s more long term, [00:09:20] like football maybe. Yes, I get that two, three years living that lifestyle, playing the football, doing [00:09:25] what I love. But later on down the line, like I get injury done, the manager don’t like [00:09:30] me done. Like, there’s so many things that can happen where you’re just going to fall out of the game very [00:09:35] quickly and you’ll never get back to it. So it was a lot.

Lwai Almasri: Did it prepare you.

Payman Langroudi: Prepare you for [00:09:40] the competitive nature of dental school? Because I don’t know about you, man, but when I got into dental [00:09:45] school. I wasn’t prepared for everyone being, like, really competitive about things. You know, [00:09:50] they. And maybe I should have been.

Lwai Almasri: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: What were your reflections [00:09:55] when you got into dental school?

Lwai Almasri: I think I think the biggest thing getting into dental school that people don’t realise is that dental [00:10:00] school is the smartest people in the country, all in one classroom. [00:10:05] Like what was strange was and I think you noticed it as well, was we [00:10:10] were the smartest not to blow our own horn or whatever, but we were we were the smartest kids in school back in the day. [00:10:15] Like, I mean, to get into King’s, you need an A and two A’s. Your interviews are very good. Personal statement. It’s [00:10:20] like you had to be, um, going from that to to definitely [00:10:25] nowhere near being the top of the class at uni is very is very.

Payman Langroudi: Humbling, [00:10:30] sobering.

Lwai Almasri: It’s very humbling.

Saif Mukadam: Humbling experience.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. And everybody’s because everyone has that shock. Everyone’s [00:10:35] very competitive in the sense of they want to be the best, but they and no one has [00:10:40] that kind of let’s help each other out type thing. Everyone keeps notes or [00:10:45] questions or stuff like this, and they form their little cliques or their little groups, and they share [00:10:50] within that small group. It’s very rare to find sharing with the whole year or [00:10:55] throughout the whole university. Sometimes you’ll find older year students pass down to younger year, but they’re not competing with you, so they don’t [00:11:00] care. But it’s rare to find that within the year you’ll form cliques and they only share in that clique. Yeah, [00:11:05] whereas back at school, I used to study biology in a group of people, and we used to all [00:11:10] help each other. Yeah. And the school used to even instil in us don’t compete with each other, compete with the rest of the country. [00:11:15] So support each other and compete with the rest, because obviously grades are still dependent on how well [00:11:20] everybody does. And grade boundaries fluctuate like that, but there was always a matter of support each other [00:11:25] in the school environment. Compete with the people you don’t know. Then school is very different. [00:11:30] It’s very competitive. It was a big shock.

Payman Langroudi: Were you shocked at Pre-clean, how difficult [00:11:35] the subjects were? Yeah, because I didn’t do biology A-levels. Okay. It was even harder. [00:11:40]

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: But By chemistry.

Saif Mukadam: I remember telling him. I remember telling him in my first year, I was like, [00:11:45] the jump is crazy. Yeah, I found a level seven bio, like, relatively a breeze. Like it wasn’t [00:11:50] ridiculously difficult. But then we got into uni and like biomed biomedicine. [00:11:55]

Lwai Almasri: Module in first year. Yeah, they split it into two. It’s biomedicine one and then biomedicine [00:12:00] two. That module was unbearable. I mean I’m quite fortunate [00:12:05] it was online for me in my first year. But Saif had it like everything in person in first year.

Saif Mukadam: It [00:12:10] was it was tricky.

Lwai Almasri: Like it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so you didn’t have to do any of the labs.

Lwai Almasri: We’d go [00:12:15] in for occasional histology sessions and I’m sorry. Like histology. Yeah. They [00:12:20] expect me to look down a microscope and see some pink. And. No, this is like muscle. Yeah, I’m [00:12:25] just looking at it.

Saif Mukadam: It’s literally that.

Lwai Almasri: It was, it was. It was unbelievable. Like it was [00:12:30] so difficult. I felt like a term of uni was the whole two [00:12:35] years of A-level. Yeah. Yeah. It’s in terms of content. It was unbelievable. And the thing is, I’m very much [00:12:40] at a level. I had the ring like the binders, and I would have the textbook, [00:12:45] have a pen and paper and make notes. Be in my lesson. Pen and paper and make notes and collect [00:12:50] my notes in this like big ring binder like folder and like section it off with like these pretty [00:12:55] little. I tried doing that at the start of, you know, have photos of me in the library. And within the first [00:13:00] week I’d filled a ring, a ring binder, like the big ones that I didn’t fill [00:13:05] in two years of, of A-levels, didn’t fill in the first week of was filled and [00:13:10] I realised this is not possible. There’s so much content. And what what you don’t realise as well is when you [00:13:15] watch your lectures, the person giving you the lecture is a specialist in that exact field, [00:13:20] so a lot of the time, respectfully, they do waffle a little bit around the topic and they don’t give [00:13:25] you like you’re not hearing exactly what you need to know. So what I [00:13:30] kind of realised towards the end of first year was that you need to look at the learning objectives at the start of [00:13:35] the lecture, and.

Payman Langroudi: Just if you’re that cat, of.

Lwai Almasri: Course. Yeah. And then and then you just pick those bits out [00:13:40] from the lecture, because an hour lecture can be made 20 minutes if they just cut out all the [00:13:45] other stuff that they talk about.

Payman Langroudi: See, there’s a thing I remember the exact thing you were saying. Yeah. Some [00:13:50] dude going on about pharmacology or whatever it was. And my brain at one point [00:13:55] saying, nah, this bit he’s talking about here is not important.

Lwai Almasri: And then it comes up in the.

Payman Langroudi: Random [00:14:00] pick here of saying that this is one bridge too far. I’m not even going to listen [00:14:05] to this bit. And and because I wasn’t the cat who would look up the class before. [00:14:10] Before the thing. And my son was telling me, oh, yeah, there’s this way people study where [00:14:15] they go through everything before the lecture, and then when they’re doing the lecture, it’s [00:14:20] like revision. I was like, really?

Lwai Almasri: No.

Saif Mukadam: That’s a good.

Lwai Almasri: Method for us. [00:14:25] The slight difference is our lectures are all pre-recorded online. So I’ve [00:14:30] never gone in. I’ve never had a person. I’ve never had an in-person lecture.

Saif Mukadam: Which [00:14:35] is crazy.

Lwai Almasri: If if it was different and things were in person, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t like, [00:14:40] I’d struggle. I think a lot more. It’d be nice. And I’ve always said, I wish that we had the option to [00:14:45] go and do lectures in person, because it’d be nice to be able to have to get to ask the tutor afterwards some [00:14:50] questions, because like now, the way it works is you have to send an email and [00:14:55] like sometimes you have to have to figure out who your tutor is because the lecture recording for us now are [00:15:00] all actually built up from Covid. So that tutor that actually that they recorded might actually [00:15:05] not be at King’s anymore. So there’s no one to email. So you have to like then figure out who that tutor is and email [00:15:10] them and ask the question, set up a teams meeting or meet them in person. And so it’s actually really long [00:15:15] when you just have one question that. So it kind of has it like puts you you just don’t want to ask anymore because [00:15:20] you can’t be bothered. So in that sense, finding the learning objectives, they always put it [00:15:25] at the start of the presentation. So you just write them down on your pen and paper or whatever. At the start of the lecture, [00:15:30] I zone out for whatever isn’t based around those 5 or 6 learning objectives, and then I [00:15:35] zone in for when they do come up. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Guys, you know you’ll as you go through [00:15:40] Dental school year, there’ll be some dark days. There really will. Yeah. Um, [00:15:45] and you’ve got to just understand, it’s normal to be massively stressed in dental school. It’s [00:15:50] definitely one of the hardest courses. I mean, my brother did medicine. Nowhere near as [00:15:55] hard as a course, really as a course there. Just watching the whole time, man. They’re not. They’re not doing anything. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: There’s no [00:16:00] patient seeing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No. First time you drill into the pulp man to try and do canal [00:16:05] treatment. Yeah. The first time you’re like, what the hell am I doing? Yeah. And most people.

Lwai Almasri: Perforate. [00:16:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I perforated, I perforated. Um, and then that can that can [00:16:15] that can actually be like a sliding door. That means your whole career, you don’t go towards endo. [00:16:20] Yeah. Yeah. Which is such a ridiculous thing because Endo is a brilliant career. Yeah. [00:16:25] And on that subject, any thoughts yet about the kind of dentist you want to be? I mean, you [00:16:30] you said both of your parents are dentists.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So my dad’s a surgeon and [00:16:35] he does max factor oral surgery and implants and stuff like that, but he’s more of an academic now than he is [00:16:40] a practising double qualifier. Uh, I believe so, yes. The doctor. [00:16:45]

Payman Langroudi: As well, I believe.

Lwai Almasri: So. Um, he’s got quite a few qualifications, so I get confused.

Payman Langroudi: Does he work in [00:16:50] hospital?

Lwai Almasri: No. So he runs his own private, um, postgrad education [00:16:55] like department. Oh, really? Um, yeah. In Birmingham. So [00:17:00] he obviously wants me to go down the surgical route, and he’s taken [00:17:05] me to lots of cadaver courses and whatnot. Currently, I haven’t done any of it [00:17:10] at uni. I’ve done a bit of oral surgery so far, but very minimal. I like it, but [00:17:15] I still want to keep my options open because I do like restorative. And like obviously this year [00:17:20] we do a lot of pros and I’m enjoying pros quite significantly. So, you [00:17:25] know, I want to keep my options open. But surgery is a possibility.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been and watched him [00:17:30] ever?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, yeah I’ve watched I’ve watched a lot of the stuff that he’s done, and he’s even showed me things like, [00:17:35] um, oh, I forgot what the procedure is called. Now it’s you break the you [00:17:40] break the the mandible or the for. Yeah. And you and you retract it back. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:17:45] that’s a big operation. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So you showed me one of those and it was, it was very interesting. But, [00:17:50] um, you know, I still want to weigh my options. I don’t want to commit to something this early on. [00:17:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a bit early. Yeah. Your parents weren’t in dentistry?

Lwai Almasri: Not at.

Saif Mukadam: All. My my [00:18:00] parents didn’t go to uni. Didn’t go to school. They’re just. They’re printers. They own a printing company. [00:18:05] So my granddad started it 40, 45 odd years back. [00:18:10] Really? My dad’s taking it over. It’s just a family business. So. Yeah, they they, um, [00:18:15] they I never really had any pressure to go into dentistry at all. Um, more. [00:18:20] So I was always like, science based in school. I loved the chemistry, biology. I did like physics, [00:18:25] I hated physics. It’s disgusting. Subject matter, I hate it, I like physics, you like it? Yeah, it’s quite [00:18:30] bizarre. And I don’t really see many people that like physics.

Lwai Almasri: But did you do maths? Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: It makes [00:18:35] sense. Yeah. I didn’t like maths or physics. Yeah. Do maths. No.

Payman Langroudi: So do three sciences. [00:18:40]

Lwai Almasri: No.

Payman Langroudi: So I didn’t do physics either.

Lwai Almasri: I actually didn’t want to go into dentistry initially anyway. Oh. [00:18:45] I did economics as my third A-level. Oh, yeah. So completely different. And I actually wanted [00:18:50] to go into finance and economics at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Be different to your parents? Very different. Your mum a dentist [00:18:55] too?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. But my mum, my mum qualified whilst I was doing my GCSEs and [00:19:00] my A-levels she went to Manchester. Wow. So she did it very late. She dropped out. My parents married. They were young. [00:19:05] Um, you know, she spent her majority of the time raising me and my two sisters. [00:19:10] And then eventually, when my older sister went to uni and my younger sister, kind of like we [00:19:15] all grew up, essentially, she decided to go back to uni and do what she did. She did dietetics first and [00:19:20] then she did dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What a story. Love that.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So to be fair, that was really inspiring. And, um, [00:19:25] like seeing her do that whilst I was doing because she also then because they came from Syria. So she [00:19:30] had to do she had to go to college to do GCSEs. She had to do A-levels as an adult. Yeah. And [00:19:35] with.

Payman Langroudi: Kids. Oh yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And then go to. And the thing is when she went to Manchester she commuted. So she still had [00:19:40] a family. I was doing my GCSEs, so she was really like on top of me for studying and stuff [00:19:45] and commuting every day back and forth to Manchester.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:19:50] how come neither of you have got a Midlands accent?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, thankfully I never got I never I [00:19:55] never had that Birmingham accent.

Saif Mukadam: So I grew up in Aston. You know Aston is. But [00:20:00] that was only for like five years. So I moved back to Moseley. But we don’t really have like a really [00:20:05] strong Birmingham accent around those areas. It’s more like Dudley.

Payman Langroudi: Oh those.

Saif Mukadam: Areas. [00:20:10] There’s like certain areas which have certain areas.

Lwai Almasri: That will have a really thick and strong accent. [00:20:15] Thankfully we do.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know Depeche Palmer, do you?

Lwai Almasri: No. No.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:20] he’s a he’s we do a course called Mini Smile Maker. It’s a it’s a composite course. Okay. [00:20:25] He’s a Birmingham guy but you know from Kenya.

Saif Mukadam: And yeah. See, my parents are from [00:20:30] Kenya.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but he’s got a proper Birmingham accent. Really?

Lwai Almasri: It’s gonna be hard to understand sometimes. [00:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: Especially when I get it. It’s not that bad. It’s not that bad? No. A lot of.

Saif Mukadam: People love to make [00:20:40] fun of it, though. Like, I don’t even, like. You can’t even tell that accent. But at the moment I say I’m from Birmingham. [00:20:45] Oh, yeah. You got Birmingham. No, I don’t I don’t have a booming voice. No, I know you.

Lwai Almasri: Can put it on, but you don’t have it. [00:20:50] No I.

Saif Mukadam: Don’t. I can’t even put it on. I can’t even do accents. But I don’t know why they say that. I’ve got [00:20:55] a Birmingham accent.

Lwai Almasri: I don’t. No you don’t. I know it.

Payman Langroudi: Might be one word here or there.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, some. Sometimes [00:21:00] it can come out, but when they say, oh yeah, I could tell you. No you couldn’t. I know it’s officially.

Lwai Almasri: Confirmed [00:21:05] that you don’t have the accent. Yeah. Tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Kings. Right when you got there. Outside of this [00:21:10] thing, we were just saying about the competitive nature of it. But London. Yeah. I mean, of course [00:21:15] you’d been to London, but living in London.

Saif Mukadam: Even before.

Lwai Almasri: Like.

Saif Mukadam: Going to. I applied [00:21:20] to Kings purely for the, for the name. Yeah, yeah. If I got it to Manchester I’d be like, yeah, [00:21:25] I rejected Kings. I’m so cool. Obviously that was the idea. That was a very young girl. Like. Long time ago. Younger [00:21:30] me. Yeah. But, um. Kings is great, man. Genuinely. It’s lots of people. It’s always something [00:21:35] happening. But again, there’s obviously the opposite side where you don’t feel like [00:21:40] you’re someone in London. Yeah. Whereas like quite a, like city. You’d enjoyed it more because you’re [00:21:45] like someone there. But no, I think it’s amazing. Genuinely. Initially I hated it because, [00:21:50] you know, Birmingham, I have my own car. I can drive wherever I want, like I don’t have to get on a [00:21:55] tube. It stinks. It smells like London in general is just, oh, it’s so busy. But [00:22:00] there’s something to it where like, it’s it’s nice, like I’m liking it. But then [00:22:05] the accommodation that I was at was not the best.

Payman Langroudi: But which one was it?

Saif Mukadam: Gds [00:22:10] great Dover Street, Dover Street, probably familiar with it. It’s quite.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve heard the name.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: That was the one I was at [00:22:15] as well.

Saif Mukadam: It’s, um it’s got a wet room. It’s en suite. So you got everything you need?

Payman Langroudi: En suite?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, [00:22:20] it’s an en suite, but it’s. It’s a triangular wet room.

Saif Mukadam: Just about. Just about.

Lwai Almasri: It’s [00:22:25] like it’s it’s practice that you have to take your toilet roll out of the bathroom when you have a shower because it will [00:22:30] come out. So like, it will, it will get it gets wet.

Saif Mukadam: It’s not even like.

Lwai Almasri: You know, the [00:22:35] only thing that I have against GDS is that I loved my time there and it was amazing. [00:22:40] But the biggest issue that I have is why am I paying £200 a week or [00:22:45] more than that.

Saif Mukadam: To 215.

Lwai Almasri: Just because my postcode is SW1? Yeah, and that the shard [00:22:50] is right next door. Because in Birmingham that’s like 120. Like, yeah I [00:22:55] have, I have someone in Sheffield that pays maybe £400 a month for his rent. And it was a nice like [00:23:00] couple bedroom flat with everyone with their own bathroom, big spacious place. [00:23:05] But just because we’re in London for over £200 a week.

Saif Mukadam: You get the bare minimum. [00:23:10]

Lwai Almasri: Even that it’s a it’s a little rectangular room with not even a single bed. It’s it’s one of those three quarter day [00:23:15] beds that, like, your legs will dangle off the end. It’s. And I’m not even a tall person. And my [00:23:20] legs were dangling.

Payman Langroudi: I just stay there one year and then move into.

Lwai Almasri: There one year and then you kind of you can stay there more. [00:23:25] But because it’s very competitive, they offer priority to obviously first year students. So sometimes it’s full [00:23:30] and you have to sort yourself out.

Payman Langroudi: But how much do you pay in a house or in a flat.

Lwai Almasri: Same similar [00:23:35] similar 250 in the area. Yeah. You can find places. Obviously you can go up much further. Obviously. [00:23:40] You know London. Like if you if you have the money to you’ll go up a lot further. Yeah. If not you can find [00:23:45] within the same realms. But it’s very.

Payman Langroudi: You stay in the same.

Lwai Almasri: Area. A lot of people do. I live in Battersea currently, so I moved [00:23:50] out a bit further to get a bit quieter of an area. Um, yeah. I live safe [00:23:55] lives, literally next door to the accommodation.

Payman Langroudi: But are you living with other Dental students?

Lwai Almasri: No. Yeah. [00:24:00] Currently I live with my older sister because she’s finishing off medicine at King’s. Okay, [00:24:05] so. But you are with me.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. My mate, second year friend that I have. [00:24:10] Yeah. It’s nice, homey. It’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to UK dental students.

Lwai Almasri: Yes. [00:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, how did it start? What is it? Let’s start with. What is it?

Lwai Almasri: Uk [00:24:20] dental students is. It’s a good question, but what it is, is currently [00:24:25] it’s the largest network of Dental students in the UK. It’s [00:24:30] simply a community for Dental students run by Dental students [00:24:35] where we can help support each other, network, [00:24:40] help each other grow, do courses not even just that other [00:24:45] like something that we’ve found really nice is that when we created it, we had a lot of students message us saying, [00:24:50] I’m doing this kind of research and would love for other people to kind of get involved and help [00:24:55] out. Do you mind if we pop it in the chat and see if other people are interested? That’s what we that that was our main [00:25:00] kind of thing that we wanted to happen from it. And we were we were really happy when [00:25:05] people started messaging because essentially people saw what we wanted to like, saw the vision essentially, which [00:25:10] was great. People pop in like charity things that they do. It’s really great. It’s [00:25:15] just a place basically where people.

Saif Mukadam: Opportunities for other students exactly across the country, which [00:25:20] is, you know, you don’t really find that anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: But so explain to me, I mean, you [00:25:25] kind of told me before about how quickly it grew. Yeah. But explain to me, okay. You [00:25:30] have this idea. Mhm. You tell the six people around you. Yeah. [00:25:35]

Lwai Almasri: Then it kind of started with so I can’t, [00:25:40] I just put an invite link in the, in the WhatsApp group chats that kind of exist already [00:25:45] of the university. Yeah. So we did a.

Saif Mukadam: Long it was oh this.

Lwai Almasri: Was this [00:25:50] was the hardest part actually the hardest part of doing it was getting to the point [00:25:55] where we were like, okay, now let’s leave it and let it just organically grow, which is where we are [00:26:00] now, where we know we haven’t got all the Dental students in the UK, but we’ve let it just naturally grow now [00:26:05] itself. Um, and not pushed. But essentially what we did was we created a Google [00:26:10] Doc spreadsheet, um, like on Google Drive and listed all the universities [00:26:15] and like all the, all the years. Yeah. And then said, okay, we’ll [00:26:20] tick off each one. Once we’ve sent an invite link into each university’s specific [00:26:25] year group chat. Similar to how Kings have a BDS 1 to 5 group chat for [00:26:30] each year group for Kings, every other university has the same thing, so we basically worked [00:26:35] our way into joining each one each year, group each university and dropped a message saying, [00:26:40] guys, this is a group chat for this purpose, whatever. But here’s an invite link to join now.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:26:45] because you knew other then other students.

Lwai Almasri: Linkedin, Instagram. So like you ask other [00:26:50] dentists from other unis if they can add you in or like if I was, I was already in all five for [00:26:55] the King’s group chats. Um, and then, you know, like people were really helpful. [00:27:00] So like, people from Bdsa were like, okay, we’ll help you guys out and add you into these group chats, um, [00:27:05] and whatnot. So I remember, um, someone made me a community admin on the Birmingham [00:27:10] Sports Day group chat so that I could just send it in one quick message, and it went to everybody. So [00:27:15] yeah, it was just it was basically it.

Payman Langroudi: Was a massive growth. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: It just that’s why it really accelerated really quickly [00:27:20] was because we we’ve got a.

Saif Mukadam: Lot of access to a lot of Dental students across the country initially from like [00:27:25] Bdsa sports days, whatnot.

Lwai Almasri: The beautiful thing about it was that everyone was willing to help. Yeah, everybody. [00:27:30] And that’s what the main premise of the group chat is anyway, is to help each other. So it was really cool to see that the [00:27:35] students, when they saw it started to like build up. They just, you know, everybody started [00:27:40] sharing it. No one no one really keeps anything like that, like a group chat link. So everyone was just sharing. [00:27:45] We put it on Instagram. Um, dentistry. Co.uk were really nice to, to also put it out on [00:27:50] um on their Instagram. So yeah, it kind of just grew that way. And then now once the thing is what [00:27:55] was crazy. Our kind of like the moment when we realised, okay, it’s going really well was when we hit a [00:28:00] thousand people. That’s when we, when we called each other and we were like, this is crazy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:28:05] many students are there? Do you know?

Lwai Almasri: Around 1500.

Saif Mukadam: Something like that.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, around 1500 [00:28:10] students. 1600.

Payman Langroudi: 2000 of them?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. 15, 1600 students in the group [00:28:15] chat, which is really cool and it grows every day.

Payman Langroudi: Although you don’t know they’re all students, do you?

Lwai Almasri: That’s [00:28:20] the thing. So we can’t we?

Payman Langroudi: I just joined.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, we could have. We could have [00:28:25] done something where it’s. They have to we have to approve everything joining [00:28:30] and but that’s. But yeah. And also we don’t want to. Yeah. And also we don’t want to deter like [00:28:35] because the thing is, is I think it’s a bit sad if people that aren’t anything [00:28:40] in dentistry joining this group chat. Do you get what I mean? Like why the hell are you going to join a group chat that you’re not going [00:28:45] to understand anything in there that brings you no benefit? So there’s that. But also, we don’t [00:28:50] want to deter students that are applying for dentistry from joining because at the same time, a lot of [00:28:55] the time they can get help as well. Like, we have no qualms with people dropping a message saying or [00:29:00] um, anybody have any advice for this application or whatever, but help out. [00:29:05] Like we’re very happy with that. So we don’t we don’t really mind. So yeah, whilst we, we don’t know 100% [00:29:10] how many dental students there are, we know that majority of them are. We [00:29:15] did a poll earlier in the chat as well about which universities people were from, so that we could, for our spreadsheet [00:29:20] purposes, obviously, like figure out where we need to focus our energy and whatnot into which [00:29:25] universities we needed help from. And yeah, and even when we did that poll, students reached out to us [00:29:30] saying, oh, I’ve noticed you don’t have this many people from this university. Do you want some help in like making [00:29:35] sure that it gets spread out and shared and stuff like that? So it’s actually it was really, really cool stuff. But yeah. [00:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: So then I guess the danger of it is, like you were saying before [00:29:45] to me, spamming. Spamming. Yeah. Have you had any of that.

Saif Mukadam: Occasion time to time. But occasionally [00:29:50] on it it gets deleted. They go.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I mean.

Saif Mukadam: Spam, stop it. Yeah. [00:29:55] To stop spam.

Lwai Almasri: In the sense of like product marketing. [00:30:00] We’re quite honest in the sense of we we delete it quite quickly, especially if it’s, um, something [00:30:05] that’s completely irrelevant that some people will drop in and like random Chinese accounts, will join and send [00:30:10] a message saying, need help with your assignment, writing and whatnot. We delete those very quickly because [00:30:15] our notifications are. Even if I’m on Do Not Disturb, I get notifications for the chat, so I see it. Um, and [00:30:20] saves really good at it. Um, but but um, in terms of spam, [00:30:25] where, where people just end up just day to day chit chat. It happens [00:30:30] occasionally, but it doesn’t really happen as much as we were worried that it would, because everybody has their their uni year [00:30:35] chats, that they kind of do that in any way. So it doesn’t really happen in this chat, which actually is quite helpful. [00:30:40] It’s nice because otherwise you’d have a chat with 1600 people just popping off on your phone [00:30:45] all the time. It’d be unbearable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, it’s an interesting thing. Like let’s say, let’s say [00:30:50] for the sake of the argument, I actually do want enlightened student representatives. Yeah I [00:30:55] do. Yeah. I could go straight on there and say, hey, I’m looking for an enlightened student representative. So here are the benefits [00:31:00] of it. Of course you could. It would be much better, though, if I contacted you first and said, hey, I’m thinking [00:31:05] of doing this, but what if I didn’t know who you are? Yeah, yeah. So so so then that’s where it’s. It’s [00:31:10] a bit weird. I mean.

Lwai Almasri: We’ve put it in the in the bio of the like of who you are. Yeah. The description of the group chat [00:31:15] and whatnot. Um, I mean, and we’re trying to do as much to [00:31:20] we’re not trying to specifically get people to know who we are as, as low and safe, but [00:31:25] more so. Okay, we’re running this group chat. Just come and reach out because [00:31:30] you can see who the admins are and the admins are there, and it’s clear. So it’s a it’s a bit [00:31:35] obvious to reach out to one of us, and we put it in the group chat to reach out, drop us a message [00:31:40] and, you know, and give.

Payman Langroudi: Me an example of like something that goes down on there that’s super like valuable for someone [00:31:45] who’s on it. What sort of stuff?

Lwai Almasri: The endo, the endo research thing that [00:31:50] the student from Queen Mary’s messaged us.

Saif Mukadam: There’s quite a few things. Yeah. So a lot of people have [00:31:55] like this opportunity and they’re like, I want to put this on the group chat for other students to get involved in. [00:32:00] They’ll drop it in and like I think charity stuff as well. So I have I’m involved in a charity. I [00:32:05] put a message in for the charity, um, opportunity on the group chat and we’ll get people signing up [00:32:10] that you wouldn’t have if you didn’t have this group chat. So there’s positives there. [00:32:15]

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I mean, we had a student that messaged both me and Saif and she was from Queen Mary’s and she was talking about [00:32:20] how she’s doing this research project, this Indo research project, but she needs support [00:32:25] from other students, from other universities to collate data and whatnot. Without [00:32:30] this group chat, she actually wouldn’t have been able to do it unless she reached out. To like individually would have been a [00:32:35] lot harder. She put it in the chat. She messaged us saying, do you mind if I put this in? And I said, of course, go ahead. This [00:32:40] is what the group chats for, like, please be my guest. She dropped it in the chat and I mean, I don’t know what [00:32:45] happened. I didn’t follow up, but she got reactions to the message, so I assume that people would have reached out. [00:32:50] And, you know, something like that is exactly what we want from it. And, you know, I mean, other than that, [00:32:55] we are planning on running hands on courses. I mean, I’ve been talking with Gin and Kish, [00:33:00] um, for quite a while as well about, you know, getting some hands on courses for students and, [00:33:05] you know, with sponsors and stuff like that.

Lwai Almasri: We’re trying our best to make it free. I mean, [00:33:10] you’d be surprised to know that if you want to host a hands on course at King’s, you. [00:33:15] If the Dental Society at King’s wanted to host a hands on course using the Phantom head lab or whatever, they [00:33:20] actually charge the society even though it’s outside of ours. You’re not taking away from, like [00:33:25] any student, clinical time or whatever. They they’ll charge you and it’s quite expensive. I forgot how much the figures [00:33:30] actually were, but a lot of sponsors can’t even don’t pay that much to cover it. So [00:33:35] you don’t get hands on courses that often. And if you do, they’re either for graduated dentists [00:33:40] and you won’t understand anything going on or they’re really expensive. So [00:33:45] like, there’s never been a win win for for students in that sense. They [00:33:50] always either tag along to things that they don’t really understand to to actual graduated dentist events, [00:33:55] or they don’t go because they can’t afford to do it, which is a very valid thing because, [00:34:00] you know, like students.

Payman Langroudi: Expenses go to graduate dentist events. [00:34:05] Yeah for.

Lwai Almasri: Sure. Of course I.

Payman Langroudi: Agree. You’ll understand. You’ll understand. There’s no difference. It’s dentistry. [00:34:10] Right? Yeah, but understand.

Lwai Almasri: But like, a second year might not understand something about crown preps. Of course. [00:34:15]

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. But, but but my my advice is generally do go. Yeah generally do go. And we on our on [00:34:20] our hands on we have students all the time uh, sitting in the back and sometimes, you know, [00:34:25] there’s cancellations and they actually do the hands on composite course as well. Oh, nice. Yeah. And I [00:34:30] watched those kids come through, you know, and and, you know, some of them go that direction. It’s it’s [00:34:35] cool. It’s cool. Um, and now there’s an event. There’s an actual event in the in [00:34:40] process with FMC, right?

Lwai Almasri: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. How did how did that happen? Go for it.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. [00:34:45] So it is essentially just building on the top 50 dentists [00:34:50] likes event that they have yearly anyway. But now we’re adding [00:34:55] the top 50 dental students with it. And as we said previously, it’s like the top 50 of today or [00:35:00] top 50 of tomorrow. It’s punchy, it’s catchy. And then we’re making it with a conference [00:35:05] as well as a party afterwards, a water and whatnot, which is, you know, it’s big, like [00:35:10] you get a day out of it for students, you have sponsors, you’ll [00:35:15] have whatnot. And I think it’s a great opportunity, something that you can build on for King [00:35:20] from BSA and whatnot. And yeah, I don’t see anything any harm [00:35:25] in it and something positive for students. I’m really excited for [00:35:30] it as well.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, the cool thing, your competition.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, exactly.

Lwai Almasri: Students, I think the cool thing about it is [00:35:35] really, is that the top 50 dentists that currently that I think it’s [00:35:40] essentially just a drink ceremony and you get your plaques and you just like you get some photos [00:35:45] and that’s all it was really. It was quite small and it was just the top 50 dentists that would actually turn up. We [00:35:50] kind of wanted to well, we wanted to give recognition to students. I mean, saves on the dental [00:35:55] society at King’s does a lot of extra extracurricular stuff. I mean, I’ve been doing since first year, [00:36:00] a lot of extracurricular stuff was on the dental society for a period of time. Yeah, you do all of this extracurricular [00:36:05] stuff and it’s not easy. And it takes up a lot of your time, especially for such a, as [00:36:10] we said earlier, a heavy degree. There’s so much lectures and so much content. It does [00:36:15] take up a lot of your time to do this stuff. And uni doesn’t really award you [00:36:20] or give you much recognition for it. There are occasional awards within the uni and whatnot, but [00:36:25] on a wider scale, not so much. So what we wanted to do was give [00:36:30] recognition for those that really go above and beyond and kind of do [00:36:35] a lot. And so the premise of it is and it’s it’s great to give some competition because doing [00:36:40] this will cause will give incentive to the people that weren’t doing it, [00:36:45] also to do it. And it’s going to benefit their career if they do. So it’s kind of it has that benefit to it as well. [00:36:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are you aware of the controversy around the top 50?

Lwai Almasri: 100%. Are you? Yeah. We’ve [00:36:55] we’ve we’ve we’ve heard it all since we announced it. We’ve we’ve had lots of [00:37:00] Backlash comments. We’ve spoken to too many professionals. [00:37:05] I mean, even like our own mentors that like we both respect highly. Prof. Banerjee as [00:37:10] an example, I have. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. On my tutorials every Thursday. Guys. So knowledgeable [00:37:15] man.

Payman Langroudi: I love him.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, he loves it.

Payman Langroudi: Although, although I can’t believe that Avi is a really [00:37:20] strict teacher.

Saif Mukadam: Nice. So. No.

Payman Langroudi: Because his students told me he’s really strict. [00:37:25] He’s so.

Saif Mukadam: Strict.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you just can’t.

Lwai Almasri: Believe he’s strict. He wants.

Saif Mukadam: He wants the best out of us. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So he’s he’s [00:37:30] strict, but he’s. I don’t know how to explain it. If if you can see where he’s coming from. The thing [00:37:35] is, a lot of people are scared of Prof. Banerjee because. Because I just can’t. Yeah. So, [00:37:40] so so.

Saif Mukadam: He’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Most unscary character I know.

Lwai Almasri: So, so for us, from from [00:37:45] our first initial point of meeting, you got to remember for us, everyone tells you about Picard’s and it’s the Bible [00:37:50] at King’s almost for restorative dentistry. It’s the Bible. Yeah. So like so like for us, it’s [00:37:55] you’re going to you’re you’re sat in a room especially our tutorials are quite small circle. [00:38:00] You’re in a very small room with this seasoned veteran of dentistry. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: He told me he’s strict [00:38:05] on purpose.

Saif Mukadam: He is so, so strict.

Lwai Almasri: But if you kind of see where he’s coming from, you [00:38:10] kind of break past that strictness. Yeah. And he’s he’s very he’s a lovely, lovely [00:38:15] guy. I shouldn’t be.

Payman Langroudi: Telling you this. If you know.

Saif Mukadam: Yourself, if you know your stuff like in your in the tutorials that I have with him. Yeah, [00:38:20] he loves it. Honestly. He loves it. If you ask him questions and you actually engage with him and engage with [00:38:25] the content, you can tell like you’re actually interested in what we’re doing. He loves it.

Lwai Almasri: Like [00:38:30] you have to turn up prepared to manage these tutorials. You know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had him on this.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but I [00:38:35] also had Ken Finlayson on this. Okay. Whose idea was the top 50? Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:40] And so back to the controversy. I mean, I mean, are you stuck on the [00:38:45] top 50 idea or not really.

Lwai Almasri: It’s not that. The thing is, with the controversy, and Prof. Banerjee warned us of this [00:38:50] and spoke to us about it. I mean, we met with him and we and we took his advice and whatnot, and even my dad, [00:38:55] because my dad’s more of an academic than he is, um, something like this. And he’s not been always [00:39:00] the biggest fan of top 50 awards and whatnot. But the point of what we’re trying to do here is, and [00:39:05] what we’ve explained to people, it’s not that we’re just giving you an award and saying here, this is an [00:39:10] accolade and whatever. Like where what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to help [00:39:15] people grow. And the way that we’re doing it is that we’re giving some [00:39:20] sort of incentive to, to, to, to create creativity within students [00:39:25] because our market and that’s why we specifically said we want to work on the judging criteria, [00:39:30] because as students, we know what’s within the realm of possibility, and we know what students want and [00:39:35] what students should be doing and the things that will benefit students. And that’s what we want to tailor the judging criteria and what we [00:39:40] have tailored the judging criteria to. And in that sense, because of that, students, [00:39:45] when they make their application or start working towards that application, they’re obviously going to be doing stuff [00:39:50] that’s then beneficial to them. So regardless of winning or not, because winning at the end of [00:39:55] the day is cool, But realistically, like we said earlier, 15 or 1600 people in [00:40:00] a group chat and 50 winning. There’s obviously those top 50 are [00:40:05] going to be something that really stood out, like an application that really stood out and was very creative and as they [00:40:10] should be rewarded for it respectfully. And then the rest of the people, it’s not [00:40:15] like they haven’t gained something from doing it. They’ve gained. They’ll be given feedback. They’ll they’ll [00:40:20] have gained. They’ll have done hands on courses.

Payman Langroudi: We all get the upside of it. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: The downside, the controversy.

Lwai Almasri: The [00:40:25] controversy is, is we’re aware that we’re going to get backlash for it. And I’ll be honest, I don’t really care because you’re [00:40:30] going to get backlash for doing anything. There’s always going to be people that do backlash.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the backlash, the [00:40:35] that it used to be the magazine. Yeah. Um, where they used to put out the top 50. [00:40:40] Now it’s a post on social media. Yeah. That post is the busiest post. It’s [00:40:45] the most engaged post that FMC put out. Yeah. Like, people are definitely interested in that [00:40:50] list. Yeah. Um, but the, you know, the downside [00:40:55] of it. What people say. Yeah. What? Can you tell me what you think the downside is.

Saif Mukadam: Why do they pick [00:41:00] me? Why do they pick? Why do they pick him over me? Those kind of vibes, isn’t it? But it’s like it’s [00:41:05] competition. But like, when people lose, they’re like, why didn’t I win? Why didn’t [00:41:10] I? But, like, what do they do to win? I didn’t do, like, you know, those kind of vibes. Yeah, but [00:41:15] I just don’t think that I will happen with the students. Yeah. Version. But [00:41:20] yeah, the thing is, every year you can get a chance to apply every year. I mean.

Lwai Almasri: Pdsa [00:41:25] and like the Bacd, for example, they do the.

Saif Mukadam: Essay.

Lwai Almasri: Competition. Yeah. Essay [00:41:30] competition. It’s almost the same really. Because like, why did this person get a higher mark than I did, for [00:41:35] example? So people are always going to say why when it comes to awards. Why did this [00:41:40] criteria. Yeah, I mean all we have to say is that we’re going to we’ll be publishing the judging criteria to the [00:41:45] students, the publish the judging criteria. Sorry. To the students. It’s going to be known. So they’ll [00:41:50] know what what’s what to expect and what to do. And the good thing is, is that we plan on running courses [00:41:55] throughout the year that people can go to in order to strengthen their [00:42:00] application. So it’s not and it’s equal opportunity, because at that point, yes, we’re not going to be able to [00:42:05] have 1600 people on a hands on course, but we will obviously be on a first come, first serve basis. [00:42:10] But it will be something that, you know, everybody has an equal opportunity [00:42:15] to to do this, this and that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what if what if yeah, I’m a student in [00:42:20] Aberdeen somewhere or whatever. Is there a Dental school in Aberdeen? Yes there is. Yeah. Um, [00:42:25] and I, I feed the hungry at the weekend and I’m working on [00:42:30] a research project with my tutor, and I’m top of my class, [00:42:35] and I don’t even enter this. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So then that’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your choice. No, no, I know, I know, [00:42:40] I know, of course I understand that I’m not going to win if I don’t enter. Right. But but then [00:42:45] the list comes out. Top. Top 50 students in the UK. This. This [00:42:50] cat, this this girl I’m talking about. Yeah. Might be better than the number one person. [00:42:55] And yet he gets no recognition at all because. Because she didn’t make an entry. [00:43:00] Yeah. Now, what you’ll find is in the awards, you know. Oh, private dentistry awards. I’m [00:43:05] going on Friday to private dentistry awards. Yeah. Sometimes the entry process [00:43:10] becoming good at putting an entry in. And some people I know, [00:43:15] you guys may not have come across this yet, but some people will hire a PR company to [00:43:20] to sort out their whole entry. Yeah. So I know one guy who paid £15,000 [00:43:25] for his entry. Yeah. This back in the day when? When? Uh, it used [00:43:30] to be a very big thing to win it. Yeah. And he said, I want to win it. Yeah. And so my [00:43:35] general point is that that that those are the kind of problems that come up. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. We’re [00:43:40] we’re going to limit those kind of entries as well. Like we’re not going to have. Well you’ll never.

Payman Langroudi: Know. You’ll never know.

Lwai Almasri: We’ll never know. [00:43:45] No. But you’ll never know.

Payman Langroudi: Because if if you’ve got these, these criteria and someone’s only fulfilling [00:43:50] these criteria and doing it to a very high standard on these criteria. Yeah. And [00:43:55] and you know, by the way, being a number six top student in the country, [00:44:00] we’re not.

Lwai Almasri: Going to rank. We’re not ranking them. You will be known as a top 50 being in the [00:44:05] top 50.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good for your career. Yeah. It’s good for your career. If I was some principle, you know, [00:44:10] the hiring, the first job. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s good for your career. And so you set up, like, a competition [00:44:15] that ends up being good for your career. And then. And then, by the way, I’m cool with it, but, [00:44:20] but, but this is the kind of thing that will come up.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. But but but it’s going to come regardless I think people. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: Well it’s not regardless if you don’t have it like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: But like the thing [00:44:30] is, is.

Saif Mukadam: There will be people that.

Lwai Almasri: Will no matter what you do, there’s always going to be someone that that. And I’m [00:44:35] sure you, you might have got backlash maybe for starting up a podcast even back when you started it up. [00:44:40] So do you get what I mean? Like there’s always no matter. A lot of times there’s people that will hate to see other [00:44:45] people succeed.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think it’s just that, though, dude. Yeah, I get that. I get that, but [00:44:50] that’s I think that’s a dismissive way of thinking about it. Yeah. I [00:44:55] do understand what you’re saying. Yeah. Some sort of jealousy. Yeah. There is that jealousy [00:45:00] thing exists. But often I feel like we put stuff down to [00:45:05] that where there’s other things involved. Yeah. So people will say, oh, I [00:45:10] don’t like so-and-so showing pictures of his Ferrari. Yeah, yeah. And then a bunch of people were like, oh, they’re [00:45:15] just jealous. Yeah. Okay. Jealousy is one aspect of that. Yeah. But [00:45:20] it’s important to try and understand the other aspect of what’s what is the actual [00:45:25] true good reason why your dad has distaste with [00:45:30] with this? Yeah. What is that? Pin that down. Yeah. Yeah. Then. Okay. Address it so I [00:45:35] don’t care about it. Or this is how. This is how I’m addressing it. Yeah. But do understand that, you know, [00:45:40] people have feelings for reasons it’s not. It’s not just that every big move will make. [00:45:45] Yeah. Of course. You know waves.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. I mean, I feel like that’s why that was our [00:45:50] main premise, actually, of meeting with Prof. Banerjee. Because, like, what did that say?

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure he hated [00:45:55] the idea.

Lwai Almasri: Not not that he actually wasn’t. He wasn’t. I wouldn’t say a hater. I mean, he’s I never had the privilege [00:46:00] of actually being tutored by Prof. Banerjee in my second year, but.

Saif Mukadam: I’ve got him literally tomorrow a minute. [00:46:05] So so so say hi.

Payman Langroudi: Say hi.

Saif Mukadam: Once I finish here, I will be going home to, [00:46:10] like.

Lwai Almasri: Prepare for it. Yeah. So I don’t want to.

Saif Mukadam: Be found out.

Lwai Almasri: So I mean, I mean, [00:46:15] with Prof. Banerjee, he was just telling us literally exactly what you said about, you know, the backlash [00:46:20] behind it and the fact that, I mean, it doesn’t actually mean anything. It’s not something of of like [00:46:25] of substance. And then he said that the problems that you’re going to have is that students are going to want things given [00:46:30] to them in black and white. From his experience of marking, being a tutor, being a tutor [00:46:35] and whatnot. And, you know, he was helping us sort of build and give us advice on what [00:46:40] we had as a potential judging list and a judging panel.

Payman Langroudi: Um, tell me about that. Tell me about that. [00:46:45] So who made the judging criteria and who are the judges?

Lwai Almasri: So we made the. Judging criteria. You [00:46:50] two. Just you two. I mean we weren’t we weren’t we we [00:46:55] had.

Saif Mukadam: Our bias here and.

Lwai Almasri: There. We obviously had our advice, but we we we we we worked [00:47:00] on the judging criteria and kind of created it. Yeah. And then in terms of the judging panel, we kind of what, [00:47:05] what what Avi was kind of sorry, Prof. Banerjee was, was saying, um, [00:47:10] was that, um, we need less [00:47:15] your high street, your Instagram dentists and more academics [00:47:20] because.

Saif Mukadam: They know what it’s like.

Lwai Almasri: They know what it’s like to judge students. Of course, the issue that he [00:47:25] then said is that academics don’t like this kind of stuff. So you’re going to struggle to get academics to agree [00:47:30] to, to judge something like this, which is very fair. But again, you need [00:47:35] to just be able to find a balance, which is what we’ve been. So what have you got? I mean, I don’t think we can leak. [00:47:40]

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But what kinds of people have you got.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So we’ve got, we’ve got lots of like potential. I’ve [00:47:45] got I can save this name. For example. I’ve got we’ve got down potential. Like, for example, Prof. Roger Ryan, [00:47:50] if you’ve heard of him. Yeah. Yeah. So someone that, you know, he’s worked very closely with my dad, for [00:47:55] example. And I know him as a both a postgraduate academic, an undergraduate academic, very [00:48:00] seasoned academic himself with a long list of qualifications. So we [00:48:05] kind of did want a balance of maybe because we want around 25 or so judges. So [00:48:10] you’ve got a.

Payman Langroudi: Couple of profs. What else?

Lwai Almasri: And then you’ve got your high street dentists as well. Oh have.

Payman Langroudi: You. Yeah. [00:48:15]

Lwai Almasri: So your instagrammy ones because because at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: Name one type.

Lwai Almasri: Do [00:48:20] you want to name one.

Payman Langroudi: Why not?

Saif Mukadam: Why not.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really, but why not? I don’t say.

Lwai Almasri: Because the thing is, we haven’t really [00:48:25] spoke.

Saif Mukadam: To them yet. We haven’t spoken.

Lwai Almasri: No no, no. So we have to some. But we haven’t confirmed a lot of them. [00:48:30] Yeah. So we don’t want we don’t want to say the name.

Saif Mukadam: Say they’re like, what am I doing that?

Lwai Almasri: And then they [00:48:35] hear it before kind of.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve all heard the names those types. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: You’ve you’ve heard some of the names. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:48:40] And then any students.

Lwai Almasri: So we want fresh. We want freshly [00:48:45] graduated students. So like you’re we have foundation dentists. We have foundation [00:48:50] dentists that are just graduated. And we picked them as ones that we thought were [00:48:55] very, you know, on it, on it when they were students. I mean, for [00:49:00] example.

Saif Mukadam: Academics and extracurriculars. So they know what it’s like. They know.

Lwai Almasri: How to. I’ll call him doctor [00:49:05] now, even though he’s a good friend of mine, just because he’s graduated. So I’ll respect his title. But for example, Tani doctor Tani Kulkarni, [00:49:10] he was very I mean, you’ve had him on the podcast as well actually. Yeah. So he was very [00:49:15] on it as a student extracurricular wise. I mean, graduated with honours.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really he’s really [00:49:20] on it as a human. Really? Yeah, exactly.

Lwai Almasri: So, so so someone like him, uh, [00:49:25] as a, as a judge would be great because, you know, he recently did. He knows what it’s [00:49:30] like to be a student, not you two know. So we will not be judges. We will [00:49:35] not. We will not be entering even as as as applicants to it. We we are completely, [00:49:40] Um, we don’t want any bias. We don’t want any level.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. Imagine the people who [00:49:45] decided to create the idea and then.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. If we applied and where the guys that are running it, it’s. We [00:49:50] don’t want to lose credibility in that sense. And also. Yeah, it just doesn’t seem fair. So we’ll be [00:49:55] staying clear of applying and we will not be judging whatsoever.

Payman Langroudi: And these judges, they’ll they’ll do it for [00:50:00] free and just do it.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, I’m not like I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:50:05] saying they need I mean, so.

Lwai Almasri: The way that our partnership with FMC kind of works is that it [00:50:10] was a matter of like you said, Craig said to you get the numbers and we’ll handle the rest. So obviously [00:50:15] they’re very well practised and versed in getting judges, you know, all of that [00:50:20] stuff. So they’re kind of dealing with that, dealing with that. Yeah, they’re dealing with that side of it in the sense [00:50:25] of even with getting the judges are why I’ve been calling it a potential [00:50:30] judge list is because we’ve come up with names. It’s a partnership at the end of the day. So if they say no to [00:50:35] a specific person or they recommend, we’re obviously going to talk about it, discuss and work on it together type thing [00:50:40] and see where the judge, you know, selection kind of comes in in, in play. And that’s kind [00:50:45] of the advice that we took from from Prof. Banerjee was, you know, make sure that your judges [00:50:50] are people that are going to give the students what they want and not just, oh, this guy’s good. [00:50:55] Let me, let me um, uh, let me, you know, give him top 50 and whatnot, [00:51:00] and they’ll give feedback. The main thing that we wanted was, was also to give feedback to students, because at the end of the day, like we [00:51:05] said, we want.

Saif Mukadam: To know, why didn’t I win? Not just that, but to.

Lwai Almasri: Better yourself for the next year, because we [00:51:10] plan on making it a yearly thing. Um, and for even those that don’t win, like, like Saif [00:51:15] said, the event in itself, it’s going to be a conference during the day with a trade fair and [00:51:20] then the award ceremony and then a party like thing afterwards. Um, where [00:51:25] it’s at the end of the day, it’s again, it’s a networking opportunity in itself.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:51:30] is there a date for the event already?

Lwai Almasri: Not yet. Not yet, but we are looking at summertime [00:51:35] end of exams. So all universities will have finished exams. We don’t want to do it too far [00:51:40] into summer because obviously dentists have holidays and their kids and whatnot when they want to come because we’re [00:51:45] merging the two events together, essentially all.

Payman Langroudi: The top 50, actual top 50.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. So that’s the point of it being the top 50 [00:51:50] of today. Meet the top 50 of tomorrow. Um, and merging it together. And so [00:51:55] it would be one big event where they can network. Everybody meets and, you know, stuff like that. So [00:52:00] we don’t want it for when the dentists have kids and they summer holidays and whatnot. And we also we know that [00:52:05] uni students like to go on holiday as well when as soon as you get summer starting. So we don’t want to do.

Saif Mukadam: It early summer. So [00:52:10] we want to make the most of it when we get.

Lwai Almasri: Exactly. So we kind of want to do it just at the start of summer where the weather’s nicer, everyone’s [00:52:15] kind of happy. The exams are finished. So it’s a good way to celebrate and start this.

Payman Langroudi: And does it have a name? Not yet, [00:52:20] not.

Lwai Almasri: Yet, not yet. But hopefully soon. Hopefully in the next couple of days we’ll be announcing [00:52:25] the, um, the rest of the information.

Saif Mukadam: The behind the scenes per se that I’ve been been working. [00:52:30] We’ve been working.

Lwai Almasri: On this since since May, almost.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s interesting because, uh, [00:52:35] This event is going to have to be sponsor led. Yeah. And [00:52:40] so you’ve got to persuade sponsors to come on board with this. And there’s so many [00:52:45] events. Right. It’s not an easy sell. It’s not an easy sell to sponsors. But you leave that to FMC [00:52:50] as well.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, if they want our help with it, we’re more than happy to. But they’ve said thankfully that, [00:52:55] yeah, they’ve got they’ve got their team veterans and they know what they’re doing with that. And we trust them completely [00:53:00] with, you know, getting a venue, sorting out that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So have [00:53:05] you guys ever listened to this podcast before?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, quite a few episodes. I’ve seen the.

Saif Mukadam: Clips on Instagram. Oh yeah, [00:53:10] I love the clips on Instagram. They’re quite nice.

Lwai Almasri: I have a bit of. I have a bit of a commute to university, so I actually listened to some of [00:53:15] the episodes on my way to uni and back home.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, there’s this bit in this podcast where it suddenly gets dark. [00:53:20] Okay. Yeah. And the dark part. Generally we like to go into clinical mistakes, [00:53:25] right?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: You can’t ask me that because I think yes.

Payman Langroudi: We can ask you. [00:53:30] Yeah. But mistakes. Yeah. And it’s this question around We don’t learn [00:53:35] from each other’s mistakes. And you know the group, for instance, it’s good for that sort of thing [00:53:40] as well, that kind of conversation. But when I say, what’s the biggest mistake you’ve made in dentistry so far? [00:53:45] What comes to mind?

Saif Mukadam: Mistake in dentistry? I can’t it’s [00:53:50] not really been much for me to make a mistake on yet, but tooth waxing? What was supposed to say? No, but I’m [00:53:55] saying like no. Like as an overall package in year one, I think I got involved a lot with what I wanted to, but I feel like I [00:54:00] could have done more. I’m not going to lie. Like there were so many opportunities, so many events, like so [00:54:05] many things that could you.

Payman Langroudi: Click out a little bit? Is that what happened? No, I don’t.

Saif Mukadam: Think I never clicked out. I’ve always just [00:54:10] been there, been involved. Yeah. Met people whatnot. But I feel like I could have gone to this.

Lwai Almasri: Safe is what we [00:54:15] call on campus a Banach.

Saif Mukadam: Okay.

Lwai Almasri: A big name on campus. Everyone and everybody knows [00:54:20] who he is. So I wouldn’t say. I wouldn’t say he’s the first.

Payman Langroudi: Time I’ve heard that someone else mentioned. [00:54:25]

Lwai Almasri: That he. I wouldn’t say he’s cliquey.

Saif Mukadam: No. So I like I like to get to know people. I’m [00:54:30] quite like genuinely like, you know, I meet someone? I’m not like this professional. [00:54:35] I make a joke, I do what I want to say, I say what I want to say when I want to say it. I hate [00:54:40] this idea of being professional all the time. And you meet someone. You have to turn it on and be someone else. Yeah. [00:54:45] I can’t do it. Like I don’t know how to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Me too, me too. I know.

Saif Mukadam: It’s impossible. Like, I just, I don’t [00:54:50] know, I just struggle with it. So when I meet people.

Lwai Almasri: What was the.

Payman Langroudi: Error? What was the error?

Saif Mukadam: It’s like you didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Get involved.

Saif Mukadam: Enough. [00:54:55] Going to more stuff, events and whatnot. I met people, but I [00:55:00] could have got involved more. Probably.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m not going to accept that.

Saif Mukadam: You’re not going to accept that.

Payman Langroudi: You can think about it [00:55:05] while we.

Saif Mukadam: No, no, no.

Lwai Almasri: Genuinely not accept.

Payman Langroudi: That. I accept that as part of our conversation. [00:55:10] But I’m not going to accept that as.

Lwai Almasri: My biggest mistake.

Saif Mukadam: Biggest mistake? Big mistake. I wouldn’t.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I wouldn’t say have a think.

Payman Langroudi: Have a think. [00:55:15]

Lwai Almasri: Okay. Do we want a clinical mistake or. Sure. I think again, clinically wise we haven’t [00:55:20] done much. But for me, clinical wise, I’d say my biggest mistake we. [00:55:25] So like I mentioned to you, I’m already repeating I am repeating my third year. So I did oral surgery last [00:55:30] year. Yeah. Um, as well as I’m obviously redoing it this year, towards the end of your third year, [00:55:35] you actually start instead of just shadowing oral surgery, you get to your last session is split into [00:55:40] four sessions. Your day one, two and three. You’re just shadowing day four. [00:55:45] You actually get to potentially depending on patient flow and whatnot, potentially do some extractions. [00:55:50] And I was fortunate enough in my day four of last year to get to do an extraction. [00:55:55] And this was I had done extractions on cadavers before and whatnot with my dad and stuff like that, but never [00:56:00] on a real patient where there’s a lot of blood and whatever. [00:56:05] And I, um, I perforated the sinus, and [00:56:10] I caused an OAC first extraction. Yeah. First extraction.

Payman Langroudi: Well done.

Lwai Almasri: Which is, [00:56:15] uh, not great. But again, I learned from my mistake and, [00:56:20] you know, caused a lot of panic. And it kind of sucks because obviously, you have to tell the patient that you messed up [00:56:25] and the patient’s there regretting their decision, coming into an undergraduate clinic and not just getting their [00:56:30] tooth extracted normally and being let to be seen by a student and agreeing to it and whatnot, [00:56:35] because also the tutor is actually the patient can say they want the tutor to do it, or more experienced student [00:56:40] to do it. They let me do it. So I felt really, really bad.

Payman Langroudi: But what could you have done differently? [00:56:45]

Lwai Almasri: That’s the thing. So actually on reflection, I when I, when I got home and because the funny thing is, [00:56:50] is actually this is the first time I think my kaizen. So I’ll explain what a kaizen is in a minute [00:56:55] was actually useful for me. Kaizen for us are whenever we have a clinical session, [00:57:00] we have to go on afterwards. Talk about what went well. Even better if.

Payman Langroudi: Reflection. [00:57:05] Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And like talk about what you did and what happened and what you’ll do better next time. And your tutor has [00:57:10] to sign it off and say what you did well and as well, and write some feedback. And you have to submit [00:57:15] it and it gets and they count how many kaizen you do throughout your uni career. I’ve always found them useless because [00:57:20] I always put went well, did filling, gave LA did this whatever [00:57:25] job done patient happy sign off. Even the tutors sometimes find it a drag to have to sign them off. Because imagine [00:57:30] that I have to do one Kaizen. A tutor has to reply to 60 odd questions because they have [00:57:35] how many students they’ve got in their clinic. Yeah, so that must be horrible for them that [00:57:40] one day, my kaizen, I actually put a lot of effort into writing into it because and I realise at the end [00:57:45] there was actually nothing that I could have done differently because I did my figure of eight movement. I followed [00:57:50] all the instructions that I, in theory, been taught. It just clinically went wrong. [00:57:55] And the tutor actually was really sweet. She was really lovely. And she said, this happened to her before. She’s, she’s. [00:58:00] Yeah, she’s caused it before. Um, in fact, a lot of times she said that patience will cause it to themselves after you’ve [00:58:05] given them an extraction and they’ll come back and say that you did it to them. So she was like, don’t beat yourself up [00:58:10] about it. It happens. I mean, I know also a lot of people, they did their first endo and [00:58:15] they perforated as well.

Payman Langroudi: Me yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So so it happens. And at the end of the day, you [00:58:20] can’t let it bog you down and stop you from doing extractions, because it’d be crazy to say I never want to [00:58:25] do an extraction again. And, you know, because in your DFT you do. How many extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:58:30] enough. Yeah it’s.

Lwai Almasri: Still not.

Payman Langroudi: Enough. It’s a bit it’s a bit early to to to talk [00:58:35] about not doing things. Yeah exactly. So that said, that said I think I [00:58:40] broke a two tuberosity once. Wow. Okay. And you say to the patient, [00:58:45] upper rate is the easiest, uh, tooth in the mouth to extract. Yeah. And [00:58:50] then it is it’s very easy to, to extract. You just push it. Push it. And and I’ve done so many [00:58:55] of them that I felt really comfortable. And I just pushed it. And this massive bit of [00:59:00] bone, I’m talking bigger than the tooth. Wow. Came out with the tooth and [00:59:05] blood like you’ve never. So what did you do? Well, I didn’t I wasn’t I couldn’t understand what [00:59:10] had happened because because you’ve done it so many times before that you think that thing, you know. [00:59:15] Yeah. And then you start to realise how little you know as these things go wrong. But yeah, I mean, [00:59:20] I think I was six years of dentist at this point. Yeah. Um, do you know, stitched it up, [00:59:25] dude. Stitched it up. But the funny thing is, that whole thing that you said about the patient thinking [00:59:30] I should have told not not been here in the first place. You know, your biggest problem isn’t the [00:59:35] clinical situation. Sometimes it’s the patient. Yeah. Because you. And having said to the guy, it’s the easiest [00:59:40] tooth in the mouth to extract and then you’ve got this massive situation. Obviously you have a you have.

Lwai Almasri: You [00:59:45] have you have the duty of candour like you have to when something goes wrong, you can’t just fix it and not tell them. [00:59:50]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there was no way there was. You could fix this without him knowing it.

Lwai Almasri: Well, yeah, that too, but also, like, [00:59:55] it’s a bonus. Yeah, but like even like.

Payman Langroudi: Even.

Lwai Almasri: Even even if you slipped, for example, [01:00:00] and you cut them a little bit, something that they might not even notice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, you have to tell them.

Lwai Almasri: You have [01:00:05] to tell them.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And that’s the hardest part is telling a patient that you that you messed up, especially because you’re, [01:00:10] you, you get crammed into you especially at uni, they cram into you GDC guidelines of don’t let the patient [01:00:15] like like make sure your social media image is good because don’t let patients lose trust [01:00:20] in the dental profession and all of this, and they need to have confidence in it. Important, though. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do we have an error [01:00:25] from you?

Saif Mukadam: Honestly? Genuinely, no.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be clinical. It doesn’t have to be clinical. It can be like a, [01:00:30] I don’t know, something else.

Saif Mukadam: I actually just don’t have anything. To be honest, I think I tried a bit hard in term one.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:00:35] your biggest weakness?

Saif Mukadam: My weakness?

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Um. [01:00:40]

Lwai Almasri: I think I know your biggest weakness.

Saif Mukadam: Oh, you know, my biggest weakness?

Lwai Almasri: I think [01:00:45] so what.

Saif Mukadam: Is my biggest weakness?

Lwai Almasri: You trust very easily.

Saif Mukadam: No, [01:00:50] I wouldn’t say so.

Lwai Almasri: I think so, from an outsider perspective, I’d say. You think so?

Payman Langroudi: I like that I call [01:00:55] that a strength, not a weakness.

Lwai Almasri: Trust me. Trusting too easily. Yeah. It’s a the thing is, that’s [01:01:00] why. That’s why I think you might not be because it works as a strength, but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Come on. What’s your biggest weakness? [01:01:05] What the hell? What if we asked your friends and family?

Saif Mukadam: You know they can. You can ask me if you want to.

Payman Langroudi: What would they say? [01:01:10]

Saif Mukadam: But I genuinely, I don’t know, I actually don’t know. I’ve thought.

Payman Langroudi: About it. You know, it’s one of those questions, that classic [01:01:15] interview question. Right?

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. What’s your biggest.

Lwai Almasri: What did you say in your Dental interview?

Payman Langroudi: I ask an interview. I ask [01:01:20] an interview when people don’t give me the answer to that. I generally don’t hire them. I feel like, oh, this [01:01:25] person doesn’t know themselves.

Saif Mukadam: No, because you know what it is like. I’ve had, [01:01:30] like, issues and like, setbacks and whatnot, but I wouldn’t say [01:01:35] it’s because of a weakness, but like, yeah, I genuinely couldn’t even say. I think you know what one of them [01:01:40] is that I can get distracted very easily. That’s a massive weakness.

Lwai Almasri: 100%.

Saif Mukadam: Like genuinely [01:01:45] like.

Payman Langroudi: Adhd, sort of.

Saif Mukadam: No, no. Like sort.

Lwai Almasri: Of.

Saif Mukadam: Seriously?

Lwai Almasri: Maybe not a bit. [01:01:50]

Saif Mukadam: No, it’s really bad. Like. So I’ll be in the library and like, yeah, I’ll do everything but work. [01:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: And I’m the same. I’m the same. It’s like.

Saif Mukadam: Speak to this one. Go speak to that one. Go do something.

Lwai Almasri: You know, it’s 11 p.m.. [01:02:00]

Saif Mukadam: Be bothered to do the work. So I procrastinate, right? There was a good like a [01:02:05] week or so last year. Like an exact time where I spent like eight, ten hours in the library, but [01:02:10] I’ve done two hours of work. How does that make sense?

Lwai Almasri: I also think that the library in itself. I’ve been there. The [01:02:15] King’s library, New Hunt’s house, library for any King students listening to this that everybody knows that [01:02:20] in exam season you stay at home and you study at home. You know, it’s too much of a social. It’s so it’s [01:02:25] only social, that library. Unless you if you want to do work, there’s there’s.

Saif Mukadam: It got [01:02:30] to the point where I was literally putting myself in a corner in the silence.

Lwai Almasri: You upstairs. You have to hide.

Saif Mukadam: And [01:02:35] speak to anyone.

Lwai Almasri: You have to hide and headphones on. And don’t you have to be rude to people and say, guys, [01:02:40] I’m studying. Unless otherwise go study. I know people that would started just staying at home [01:02:45] just so that they could study in exam season. Because they say I.

Saif Mukadam: Say that as a weakness though, but it can also [01:02:50] be a strength like that. The reason why I distract myself and whatnot is because I like to speak [01:02:55] to people. I like to catch up whatnot.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, in general, in life, your biggest strength is your biggest [01:03:00] weakness. Of course.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, I think that’s a good idea. In general analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s [01:03:05] get into the course itself. What aspects of the course so far [01:03:10] feel like they’ve been a waste of time, or what aspects feel like they haven’t? It’s [01:03:15] that it’s difficult to tell.

Lwai Almasri: I mean, I mean, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Halfway through, but we were talking before about, you know, bio.

Lwai Almasri: Chem. [01:03:20] Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: So first term, like, I know for a fact I am never going to use that clinically. Like, [01:03:25] do you know what that is?

Lwai Almasri: Depending on the path that you go down, you actually might.

Saif Mukadam: Because for me personally, [01:03:30] I mean, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You might become an oral surgeon, right. And then that clotting cascade, whatever it was [01:03:35] you learned suddenly becomes a thing. Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: But you might have. [01:03:40] But I didn’t do it. That’s for.

Lwai Almasri: Sure. Exactly. So.

Payman Langroudi: But some people make the argument, [01:03:45] they say, oh, it’s like once you become an oral surgeon, go learn all that. Yeah. Because you’re right. I mean, for instance, [01:03:50] we’re in teeth whitening, right? Whitening isn’t taught. Of course not throughout [01:03:55] the dental course. There’s. I think I’ve asked so many people. There’s one sort of half an hour session. [01:04:00] Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So I did.

Payman Langroudi: Tooth whitening or bleaching.

Lwai Almasri: I did tooth whitening two weeks ago [01:04:05] in. Oh you did. But we don’t get it taught by dentists. We get it taught by lab technicians.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, for [01:04:10] the trade design in labs.

Lwai Almasri: And they. And they don’t teach you about whitening. They teach [01:04:15] you about shades and just.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, was in photography and the colour.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. And they just tell you that whitening [01:04:20] exists. That’s it. It’s basically. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s really interesting because like, [01:04:25] it’s not like it’s not implants or something where, you know, that kind of is a or ortho [01:04:30] speciality that you do a specialised thing that you do afterwards. Whitening. It’s a very [01:04:35] simple thing that, you know.

Lwai Almasri: A general dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Can do. A general dentist can do for £299 on [01:04:40] your first day in practice. You might have to do it, and it’s not taught in dental school. And yet [01:04:45] we look down microscopes and histology.

Saif Mukadam: Look at.

Lwai Almasri: Histology.

Saif Mukadam: So exciting. Yeah. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, because I’m in whitening, obviously that’s what I’m going to say. Yeah. But what else have [01:04:55] you identified? I mean, you were talking about this haptic. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: I mentioned to you the haptics lab. I mean, so.

Payman Langroudi: Explain what that is. [01:05:00] Explain what that is.

Lwai Almasri: In guy’s tower in the hospital on floor 18. They have this beautiful [01:05:05] looking lab that they’ve got about ten or so haptics machines. They spent millions. [01:05:10]

Saif Mukadam: Of pounds 20 years. Quite. It’s nice 20 machines. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: They spent millions of pounds developing it. It’s [01:05:15] a beautiful room with a lovely view of London and all of that. The whole of guys. Yeah. And you [01:05:20] basically you look into this screen almost like. And you grab [01:05:25] this fake drill and fake mirror, and so.

Payman Langroudi: There is no drill or mirror in your hand at [01:05:30] all.

Lwai Almasri: No, it’s a fake. It’s a pen.

Saif Mukadam: It’s two pens simulated.

Lwai Almasri: It’s simulated. Phantom head [01:05:35] essentially is how I can describe it. Okay. And the the drill is weighted to a fast handpiece [01:05:40] somehow. And the mirror pen is weighted to mirror [01:05:45] roughly. And you sit there and you have like a head, they’ve got like a fake [01:05:50] phantom head with no teeth in it. And you, when you look into the screen, there’s teeth. Oh. And [01:05:55] as you drill, it’s you get feedback. So like you feel like feedback, you get vibrations [01:06:00] and you get like the.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds great.

Saif Mukadam: On paper. It sounds amazing in theory.

Lwai Almasri: Sounds great. I promise you, it’s nothing [01:06:05] like phantom head. Mm. No, no.

Saif Mukadam: I was I mean, I obviously came, I [01:06:10] was like, yeah, I’m so excited for haptics I can’t wait. Yeah. I spoke to this guy. He was like, bro, just wait till you do Phantom [01:06:15] heads. It’s nothing like it.

Lwai Almasri: Nothing. And I’d done. I’d done a couple phantom heads before, before uni, as part [01:06:20] of my, like, application with my dad. So I’d done Phantom Head before, I’d done haptics, and [01:06:25] I knew haptics was nothing like it, and no one believed me until they started second year. And [01:06:30] the worst part about haptics, I think, is, is that not only it’s cool if you just did it in first year, fine. [01:06:35] Bit of a waste of money or overspent or whatever, but cool. You do it in first year to prepare them for phantom head. [01:06:40] You do it in second year, you do it in third year, you do it in fourth year, and you do it in fifth [01:06:45] year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so every procedure you start with that. Well, it’s not that.

Lwai Almasri: You start with I don’t know what they do [01:06:50] it in fourth and fifth year, but there’s compulsory like I do Crown preps in now in third year on [01:06:55] haptics. But I do Crown preps also on Phantom head. And then it’s nothing alike. [01:07:00] And like it’s just it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I guess they spend it’s compulsory to use it.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. And it’s compulsory [01:07:05] attendance and it’s registered and you get in trouble if you don’t go. And like I [01:07:10] could just see I would rather have phantom head time, which is only once every two weeks. And [01:07:15] it’s the fact that in my head, they spent millions on developing this lab. They [01:07:20] really are stingy on giving us phantom head plastic teeth, because each cave tooth is, what, like a pound [01:07:25] per tooth or something like that. And it’s like, well, if we give every student then. But you spent how many millions [01:07:30] on a, on a haptic lab, you could have used that and got more teeth and I could do more crown prep because we get given 32 teeth, [01:07:35] a full dentition at the start of the year and third year, and that has to last.

Payman Langroudi: They compared to [01:07:40] actual teeth.

Lwai Almasri: What, the phantom head teeth? Yeah. I’ve never done a crown prep on a human, but [01:07:45] yeah, I’ve done fillings. Uh, they’re okay, obviously they’re plastic. I mean, the main premise of it [01:07:50] that you learn from Phantom Head is kind of getting your finger, like, rests [01:07:55] and stuff like that, and navigating the. Because we used to.

Payman Langroudi: Use actual teeth. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So we do in [01:08:00] second year.

Saif Mukadam: So yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So we’re part of first year is they ask you to go [01:08:05] collect teeth from dental practices, and you create your phantom head arches for second [01:08:10] year to practice resto and you do fillings and stuff on actual teeth. In third year [01:08:15] you do plastic teeth for crown preps and only crown preps because it’s a bit hard to do a crown prep on because [01:08:20] they’re all all extracted teeth have messed up teeth, unless it’s for ortho or [01:08:25] something like that. So you can’t really practice crown preps on them. But I mean, the cool thing is, is [01:08:30] you kind of learn to adapt around the mouth and whatnot. But what’s so silly about haptics is [01:08:35] that you can’t even practice a finger rest because there’s no teeth physically on that phantom head unit. [01:08:40] So I’m actually just floating. I’m floating, I’m finger resting on the head. So it’s actually [01:08:45] instilling bad habit, if anything, for me. So I don’t know. I think that was that. And the fact [01:08:50] that we don’t get the choice of going in person and having a lecture like I told you, and that all lectures [01:08:55] are only online and pre-recorded, I think that there’s benefits to it, because I like being [01:09:00] able to do my lectures in my own time, pausing and stopping and but in person lectures were always recorded anyway. [01:09:05] So like, I would prefer the option of being able to attend because genuinely, in first [01:09:10] year we could have lived at home in Birmingham 100%. Normally you.

Saif Mukadam: Wouldn’t easily. [01:09:15]

Lwai Almasri: And commuted whenever there was a histology. It’s an hour and a half train. Like, [01:09:20] do you get what I mean? Yeah, I could have easily done that.

Payman Langroudi: And I guess, like when it’s all done at home, [01:09:25] you don’t get that feeling of like being in uni. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: You’re not. The point of it is, is that you’re at [01:09:30] uni. You need to meet your course mates, meet, meet uni is meant to be the greatest time for a lot of people [01:09:35] and people. My dad was telling me before I came, you’ll meet lifelong friends at uni. If your course is [01:09:40] online, we will. That’s why. That’s why New Hunt’s House library, by the way, is very social because a lot [01:09:45] of first years come there just to socialise because otherwise they’ll do the lectures in their dorm. Do you get what I [01:09:50] mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. Well, is it because of the year you’re in that you’ve, you’ve got no choice for in person. But [01:09:55] you do know.

Saif Mukadam: So I they tried to make it more in person when I was there. So [01:10:00] we had about, I don’t know, like 30% of the lecturers in person even then. Like I don’t know, [01:10:05] about 20 people would turn up because they know the lecture is going to get recorded anyway. So even if [01:10:10] you don’t go, you can just watch it in your own time. So I used to go purely just to chill with my mates, a [01:10:15] bit of fun, go eat some food afterwards, like make it a little bit of a motive basically [01:10:20] because we don’t get that like historically exactly the same. I did not pick up a single thing in histology, [01:10:25] but chilling with our mates, looking down the microscope, having a bit of fun. Yeah, that was enjoyable because [01:10:30] I was chilling with my classmates getting to know him, but for him, because he had nothing in person [01:10:35] because of Covid whatnot, which is fair. Like obviously you don’t want to spread the disease and whatnot. Yeah, he didn’t get [01:10:40] to know him as as well as I feel like I did, but I think he did as well.

Lwai Almasri: I actually realised that there was so [01:10:45] many people in my year that I didn’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such big a year. Massive. Yeah. So it’s like.

Lwai Almasri: 140 [01:10:50] to 80 depending.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: With the th yeah with the dental therapy and hygiene. [01:10:55] So that’s like another 30. So a lot of.

Saif Mukadam: People whereas like most dental schools max 70, 70, 80 a year [01:11:00] group.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah we were.

Saif Mukadam: A lot.

Lwai Almasri: Smaller. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even so like.

Lwai Almasri: I don’t know I didn’t [01:11:05] know so many people in my year group, I in fact, I knew a lot. I knew more people in in the year above [01:11:10] me than the commuters in my year group. I only knew in first year the people that lived [01:11:15] in my accommodation that essentially because those were the only people I saw. And that [01:11:20] that for me was probably why Aecom was a great experience was because I got to meet so [01:11:25] many people. Community feel I felt, yeah, like I didn’t get to great. I didn’t get to feel that on [01:11:30] campus per se, because no one was coming in. We didn’t have clinics. Um, [01:11:35] and that’s I realised it in second year when we started Phantom Head and people started actually coming in. [01:11:40] I don’t know, 90% of the people here like because my group, you don’t get to pick your [01:11:45] groups. So I wasn’t with my friends or I had two maybe of my friends, the rest of the 40 [01:11:50] people in the room, no clue who they were, never seen their face before. I was reading [01:11:55] the register when we were signing. I don’t know who these people are. So like. And you felt like you were in the wrong place, which [01:12:00] is crazy because you’re at uni and you you’d think that you’d get to see everybody and meet everyone And you do [01:12:05] later on, I guess. Which is nice.

Saif Mukadam: But now. Yeah. So now obviously.

Lwai Almasri: And now Covid obviously is [01:12:10] a thing of the past. It’s obviously like something. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Guys consider a year out between [01:12:15] college and.

Saif Mukadam: I didn’t obviously I had my two years of football. So I was going.

Payman Langroudi: You’d already done. [01:12:20]

Saif Mukadam: That took a year out. It would have been even older.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah yeah.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah yeah. No it’s no, I never considered a year out [01:12:25] because I knew I was doing the football, but yeah.

Lwai Almasri: No, I didn’t think of it a year. I didn’t think of taking a year out between [01:12:30] school and I mean.

Saif Mukadam: Um, my, my career diversion, I was great.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. [01:12:35] I mean, I mean, for me, it was more of a matter of. I kind of just wanted to get to uni. [01:12:40] I kind of just was ready to to, you know, move out of home, kind of like start, [01:12:45] I don’t know, just wanted to kind of get those five years done. Not not per se get them done. [01:12:50] But I can’t lie, I was just ready for moving on to the next chapter, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But why couldn’t [01:12:55] the next chapter be in Vietnam? You know, I mean, it’s true, it’s very true.

Lwai Almasri: But like a lot [01:13:00] of people do do that. Yeah, I know, so I know a lot of people in my year at school actually took a year. They were applying medicine, dentistry, [01:13:05] and they took a year out, travelled and then went and they got their offer. They just deferred it to the next year. They actually had [01:13:10] to do nothing, not even redo Ucat. Not even so. Like that was an option. But just for me, I was like [01:13:15] five years of dental school. Seems like a while.

Payman Langroudi: I’m trying to persuade my son to take a year out.

Lwai Almasri: I [01:13:20] think it has a lot of benefit. And my my little sister actually right now is applying, is taking her year out. [01:13:25] She applied dentistry. She’s taking her year out and she will go to dental school next year, hopefully. So [01:13:30] she’s taking a year out. The thing is it’s it is foresight. I just didn’t know what I would do with my [01:13:35] year. So like, I didn’t think that there was something productive or beneficial that I could.

Payman Langroudi: Gain, but [01:13:40] you know what I mean. Travel. Feed the hungry. Start a Start-Up.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: The usual.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, but [01:13:45] I don’t know. It just didn’t it wasn’t something that resonated with me. So I was like, it was not something that I wanted. It was a [01:13:50] bit of a.

Saif Mukadam: Worry sometimes as well. Like, let’s say you take a gap year, a lot of students will think, oh, I’m behind [01:13:55] now. Like I said to me, I’ve even posted a post about it on LinkedIn, so obviously I’m now two years [01:14:00] behind. You know, I get the odd joke. Her Granddad. Uncle, I genuinely do. You know, [01:14:05] I got asked the other day. How are your knees? I’m 22. I’m not 44. You don’t be. Yeah. [01:14:10] So you get a joke and people get worried. Oh. I’m behind. I’m not on the right side. On the right timeline. [01:14:15] Same timeline as my peers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but that’s rubbish.

Saif Mukadam: There’s no worry at all, because.

Lwai Almasri: That’s. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: Complete rubbish.

Saif Mukadam: In my year group, there’s. I’d say 40%. 40% are [01:14:25] gap year students. Yeah. Whereas in like, there’s it’s so common. Like, why is [01:14:30] there a worry about it. Why is there a taboo about it? Even people who do postgrad like well their undergrad. But they’ve done a degree [01:14:35] beforehand. They’re there as well. Like there’s no issue with being. No, there’s no.

Payman Langroudi: Issue with that. I mean, [01:14:40] there’s there’s this I mean.

Saif Mukadam: There’s a taboo about it for some reason.

Payman Langroudi: There’s this question of, Will the kid just [01:14:45] give up on studies altogether?

Lwai Almasri: Oh.

Saif Mukadam: I’m not sure about that one.

Payman Langroudi: It’s well, it’s like my my [01:14:50] parents are saying you’re crazy to try and persuade him to go.

Saif Mukadam: There’s no longevity. [01:14:55] Then if you just give up on studies.

Payman Langroudi: No, because he’s had a year off, you know, he’s like, now he’s not in the same mindset that [01:15:00] we could.

Saif Mukadam: Have asked me that same question, like, I finished.

Payman Langroudi: Football.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, exactly. What made you go back into A-levels? Because what [01:15:05] am I going to do? Like sit at home, do nothing? No, I’ve got to have something going forward. [01:15:10] And studies was what I wanted to do. I mean, I’m not saying.

Payman Langroudi: This is a really interesting reason why I’m trying [01:15:15] to tell my son is, okay now he’s working his butt off for A-levels and [01:15:20] he wants to do aerospace engineering, and it’s very, very competitive and so [01:15:25] on. And let’s say it goes really well for him. And he gets into Cambridge [01:15:30] to do aerospace engineering. He’s going to get there. His first emotion is going to be what we said about being [01:15:35] suddenly surrounded by these geniuses who are better than you. Yeah, 100%. Let’s imagine [01:15:40] it goes really well. He gets to Cambridge and that happens. So then then, okay, now he’s got [01:15:45] to work his butt off in Cambridge. Let’s say let’s go.

Lwai Almasri: It’s very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [01:15:50] there they do all of engineering in the first two years. All of it. Yeah. And [01:15:55] then in year three and four they specialise. Okay. Four years of working your butt off. Then [01:16:00] let’s say he wants to become. I don’t know, a banker for the sake of the argument. Yeah, he’s stuck in a 9 to 5. He [01:16:05] gets picked up by Morgan Stanley or some bank somewhere. Get there. Those [01:16:10] guys are proper motivated.

Lwai Almasri: Not even 9 to 5.

Payman Langroudi: That’s. No, that’s like a 9 to 9. Seven. [01:16:15]

Lwai Almasri: 7 to 7.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Straight slog. You answer this mobile whatever happens. Right. And [01:16:20] so let’s say he does really well with that. Yeah. And let’s say he gets promoted and he becomes this.

Lwai Almasri: When [01:16:25] does he have a break partner.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But at one point yeah there’s this notion, this notion [01:16:30] of I’m going to do so well here that I can go on any holiday I want. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:35] And holidays. But especially when you get older dudes. Yeah. Like one week holiday just doesn’t feel like [01:16:40] holiday. Yeah. I want, like, a six month. Yeah. Or twice.

Lwai Almasri: A year. Six month holiday. Twice a year. [01:16:45] Six months.

Payman Langroudi: I want to I want to work from somewhere else for the sake of the argument. For the sake [01:16:50] of the argument. Yeah, I could like I could want.

Saif Mukadam: To have that option. Yeah. You want to have it? We could.

Payman Langroudi: Do. I could be sitting in Thailand [01:16:55] right now. Yeah. Talking to? To you, of course. Anyway, at [01:17:00] one point, the super successful banker guy who does so well that he can have a whole year [01:17:05] off. Yeah. You know, whereas you can just take that year at the beginning. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: I [01:17:10] mean, I never really looked at it that way, I guess. I mean, that’s the thing. So I mean, the [01:17:15] way that you just said it, where you can, it’s a good break before [01:17:20] realising that you’re stuck potentially afterwards. And this just by the way.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:17:25] can do it at the end of your five year course. Yeah, exactly. So before or just after?

Lwai Almasri: It’s true. Yeah, exactly. [01:17:30] Um, so yeah, I don’t know. For me, it’s it [01:17:35] was just something that I never really thought about. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. I mean, you as well. You had [01:17:40] your two years of apprenticeship for football.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. I always knew I was going to do it. Like after [01:17:45] GCSEs. I knew I was going to have those two years for sure whether it was going to be any further. But anybody who [01:17:50] wants to take a gap year, I would never tell them no. Like, yeah, 100%. For my own personal experience, I’m two years behind [01:17:55] or I’m gonna say behind, but I’m two years. The thing is.

Payman Langroudi: Two years more mature. When you went in.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah. I think if I came [01:18:00] to uni as an 18 year old as well, it would have been completely.

Lwai Almasri: Such a child. Oh, I was 100% [01:18:05] all this.

Saif Mukadam: Like, gossip or whatnot that they just love as 18 year olds. Actually, I’m not gonna lie. I [01:18:10] did, yeah, but like, I come two years later, I have this. I’ve been in a professional environment [01:18:15] for two years. I know what it’s like for a 16 year old earning money, and it’s [01:18:20] like you have a different mindset. Yeah, I’m not saying I’m like, I’m completely mature. I deserve to be. Of [01:18:25] course not. Yeah, but, like, you know what I mean? Like, you have this different mindset compared to if you’re straight [01:18:30] out of school. Yeah. Even for me.

Lwai Almasri: I realised that I had so much growth after my first two years of uni, [01:18:35] just maturity wise. I was so immature in such a child. Yeah, in my first and second year I made plenty [01:18:40] of mistakes. Plenty. And to be honest, I’m thankful for them because I wouldn’t be [01:18:45] the person I am now if I hadn’t done them, learnt from them, reflected on them. [01:18:50] So I’m very thankful for it. But yeah, I mean you. The other benefit, of course, of taking a year [01:18:55] out is that you get to go into the new environment more mature. But I’ve always said, I think [01:19:00] because I do like both of us, even we help a lot of students with their prospective Dental students with their applications [01:19:05] and whatnot. And when they ask about taking a gap year, I’ve always said personally, I [01:19:10] mean, there’s two kinds of gap years for dentistry, though. There’s a gap year where you defer your offer. Yeah, [01:19:15] yeah. And, you know, you’re you’re guaranteed.

Payman Langroudi: Correct.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. You’re guaranteed to enter. [01:19:20] And there’s a gap year where you have to redo your ucat and personal statement. Yeah yeah yeah. That’s stress. So there’s ucat and personal [01:19:25] statement one I emphasise definitely that they have to do something with their gap year. [01:19:30] That’s relevant because your personal statement and in your interviews they’ll ask you about it and it’s a big thing. [01:19:35] But even to the people that have a deferred offer, I recommend that they have a plan [01:19:40] or something that they want to do in this gap year, because otherwise you can just find yourself just chilling at home. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Because I know the way I said it to my son was to like, sell it to us. Yeah, [01:19:50] exactly. Sell us on what you’re going to do in this year because his mom’s against it, so of [01:19:55] course.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’re coming. We’re coming to the end of our time. Um, [01:20:00] we tend to end with the same questions. Oh, I don’t know if you’ve if you [01:20:05] only watched the clips, you won’t know these. Um, it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Aha. [01:20:10] Dead or alive?

Lwai Almasri: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when I say that?

Saif Mukadam: So it’s so it’s in [01:20:15] the same meal. You’ve got three people together. Or can you have them separate?

Payman Langroudi: No, the same dinner party. Okay. [01:20:20] Your dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive. Who would you have?

Saif Mukadam: So my my [01:20:25] main one.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be three footballers. No no.

Saif Mukadam: No. One of the first one is definitely gonna be Ronaldo. Cristiano Ronaldo. [01:20:30] Like, from day one. Even though my Man City fan like it should be wrong. But why am I choosing [01:20:35] Ronaldo? But I’ve just always admired his mentality just the way how he goes about, you know, just [01:20:40] the.

Lwai Almasri: Hardest working in the.

Saif Mukadam: Room. Of course, like it’s admirable. It’s something you want to work towards, something I put [01:20:45] into my own, uh, you know, regime. When I was playing football, like, after training, [01:20:50] I stay late, do shots. Free kicks, dribbling, whatnot. Because [01:20:55] at the end of it, I had I had no regrets for my football because I know I put 100% [01:21:00] in for those two years. So because of Ronaldo, like he’s like [01:21:05] this mindset of you want to be the best, I need to be the best. I need to put the work in to be the best. [01:21:10] Yeah, it’s simple as like, I want to know, like how he’s done it and like just his whole lifestyle. [01:21:15] I think it’d be amazing to sit down and have a nice little meal with him. Um, [01:21:20] other two, I think. One of them, uh, Marie Curie, you [01:21:25] know, she, she invented, like, radiographs and whatnot. Invented the first portable x [01:21:30] ray, like, just the thought process and whatnot. How she went through. I think she was the first [01:21:35] female to win a Nobel Peace Prize as well. Is that right? Yeah. I’m not, I’m not. Don’t quote me on that.

Lwai Almasri: Nobel prize, [01:21:40] not peace prize.

Saif Mukadam: Nobel Prize, don’t quote me on that. But I’m pretty sure she was one like one of them. So that’s a serious, [01:21:45] serious accolade to have. And yeah, I just have a little comfort with it. Won’t be too bad. [01:21:50] And then, um. Third person. Oof! I don’t really have. You [01:21:55] know, I recently started boxing, so. Which is a bit random, but Muhammad Ali, [01:22:00] I wouldn’t mind.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah, a little.

Saif Mukadam: Bit of a chit chat with Muhammad.

Payman Langroudi: Ali the first time Muhammad Ali’s [01:22:05] come up. Really?

Saif Mukadam: Is that a general one?

Lwai Almasri: What’s the other reasoning for Muhammad Ali that you [01:22:10] usually get?

Payman Langroudi: Well, Muhammad Ali has done so much. I mean, he he’s politically, politically, especially. [01:22:15]

Lwai Almasri: Race and religion back then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Saif Mukadam: So he’s he’s done a lot like activists [01:22:20] and whatnot. But just in general because of the boxing that I’ve started. So I’m doing a fight very soon. Oh, really? On the [01:22:25] 1st of December and just student fight night. Yeah. Student fight night.

Payman Langroudi: Be careful man.

Saif Mukadam: No, I’m. No, I’m definitely [01:22:30] your money-makers man. The head guard or whatnot. I’m not trying to get injured. I’ve never really, like, seen [01:22:35] it, but I got challenged by one of my mates. Like I challenged you to do the boxing. Have you.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across Doctor Daniel hitman? [01:22:40] He’s a dentist. He’s a professional boxer. I think I’ve.

Lwai Almasri: Seen him on Instagram.

Saif Mukadam: Instagram. Yeah, he’s he [01:22:45] quite. He’s got a decent following, isn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. He’s.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, he’s up there.

Saif Mukadam: I think I’ve seen him. Yeah, I think [01:22:50] I’ve seen him. Of course. Not suggesting or whatnot. Yeah. That wouldn’t be a bad person to have. How about you, [01:22:55] Roy?

Lwai Almasri: So the thing is, I wanted to say Ronaldo, but he’s taken him because [01:23:00] I’m a big boy. I’m a man United fan, so I’m a big fan of Ronaldo. But I’ll change it. Um, [01:23:05] I’d say probably Roger Federer is one of them. I played, I’ve played tennis and [01:23:10] used to play tennis a lot back in school as well. And I mean, he has a video clip. I don’t know if [01:23:15] anyone’s seen it, but it’s when he retired from tennis, he [01:23:20] went and gave a speech at a university’s graduation, and his whole speech was about. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: I still miss.

Lwai Almasri: I know this. So so he’s won 80% [01:23:30] of all matches that he’s played, yet his point conversion is 54%. [01:23:35] And he’s talking about nobody is perfect yet. You can still in the [01:23:40] end have a like you’re going to make mistakes along the way. Your career at the end [01:23:45] when you look back at it, it can still be very memorable. Regardless of those mistakes. Those mistakes make [01:23:50] you a better person and don’t get caught up on your mistakes. Don’t don’t just, you know, don’t [01:23:55] let them bog you down. Because if he thought about every single point that he missed, he’s not going [01:24:00] to be able to focus on the next point that he’s got coming up. If he’s if he’s mid serve thinking about, oh shit, [01:24:05] I missed that. Uh or should have done that. You’re going to mess up the like [01:24:10] like just like you can reflect on the past but keep looking to the future [01:24:15] type thing. Yeah. Yeah I think my next person that I would say would be [01:24:20] um well Ahmed CEO of Woohp.

Payman Langroudi: 00i know him.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. You know.

Saif Mukadam: Him personally. [01:24:25] Oh you know him well.

Payman Langroudi: My wife knows his family.

Lwai Almasri: Oh very nice. Yeah he’s he’s [01:24:30] someone that he I mean both me and Saif have it. And I and I [01:24:35] convinced him to get one was well for me just as a Woohp as Woohp. In general it’s revolutionised [01:24:40] my my day to day life for uni. Whether that’s it’s alarm clock. It’s bettered my sleep, um, [01:24:45] etc.. But.

Payman Langroudi: But he’s very involved himself. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: And [01:24:50] he’s. You can tell he’s passionate about his product. He’s always put product over distribution. [01:24:55] He made his product good. And he entered a market that was so saturated. I mean, you had Apple Watches [01:25:00] and Apple Watch are a huge monopoly. The Garmin, [01:25:05] the Samsung, the aura thingy ring like that people wear. And he and he’s [01:25:10] dominating. I mean and he’s signed. I mean Ronaldo Ronaldo is a co-investor even actually [01:25:15] in the in the product. And he wouldn’t be if it wasn’t something that was actually good.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:20] you know how that works though. Sometimes they just give 10% of the company to. True.

Lwai Almasri: True. So [01:25:25] so there is that. But I like very much believe in what he’s done [01:25:30] in the, in that sense. And then kind of basic, I’ll probably say somebody like Jeff [01:25:35] Bezos when when he divorced from his wife, he [01:25:40] actually well, she became the sixth richest woman or something. Just off the divorce settlement. Crazy. But [01:25:45] what was really interesting to see was that he’s one of the few people that actually had a very nice [01:25:50] divorce. As nice as divorces can get, I guess. Um, but [01:25:55] in the sense of he said that she, he she earned every penny of that settlement [01:26:00] that she took. She took like $36 billion or something like that. And he said that without her [01:26:05] support, even though she didn’t directly do anything at Amazon, without her support, he [01:26:10] wouldn’t have been able to create Amazon. So it kind of shows you that. I mean, I saw it in my parents as [01:26:15] well. It kind of relates me a bit to my parents. My mom dropped out of uni, delayed everything [01:26:20] so that she could, you know, support my dad, support us and raise the kids and whatnot. [01:26:25] And, you know, she she, she put on hold her career so that she could [01:26:30] support my dad and let him thrive and do all of that and then came back to it. And, [01:26:35] I mean, thankfully, they’re not divorced and they’re still together and they love each other, obviously, thankfully. But I mean, [01:26:40] along that premise of, you know, I kind of see it in Bezos and his wife and how [01:26:45] she did that. And, you know, there’s no negative energy between them. So it’s really nice to see.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you turning? [01:26:50]

Lwai Almasri: 22 in February. So 21.

Payman Langroudi: This is for the for the fun of it. Give [01:26:55] it like a five years time. What do you think you’re going to be doing so that in five [01:27:00] years time, when I do it again with you guys from Thailand, we’ll see. We’ll [01:27:05] compare and contrast. Like, I know it’s early to decide.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah, I can’t like.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s [01:27:10] your head now in five years time? What dentist will you be?

Lwai Almasri: You’ll be in your foundation.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, yeah, [01:27:15] yeah. I’ll be in.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years time then.

Lwai Almasri: Okay. I mean, I [01:27:20] what, ten years time as well? Sure. I don’t see myself. Okay, [01:27:25] so in five years time, I would have seen myself still doing quite a lot of just in practice. [01:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Ten years is better. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: Ten years maybe. I’ve had the best balance [01:27:35] of practice is 2 to 3 days a week of clinical practice, and then the rest working [01:27:40] on on a business. My my my my aspirations have always been I want [01:27:45] to open a Dental corporate. Oh, yeah. That’s that’s always been my my kind of what [01:27:50] I want to do. I’ve always been interested in Dental corporate because obviously I wanted to do finance [01:27:55] and econ at uni. My, my, I was very much business minded for a long time. And [01:28:00] the way my dad actually convinced me was very clever, because he knew that if he forced me into [01:28:05] dentistry, I just, I just said no and I would have still done what I wanted to [01:28:10] do. So he he showed me that actually dentistry is what’s best by [01:28:15] sending me to do work experience at a firm for two weeks where I gave up [01:28:20] after five days because of, like you said, bankers, that you’re there at seven in the morning, you don’t [01:28:25] leave until 8 p.m. at night. And I was just crunching numbers at a desk, not leaving. And [01:28:30] I hated it. I loved being practical. I love getting up and going to meetings or running [01:28:35] around the city or or or even working with my hands. I really like doing.

Payman Langroudi: Wire Dental [01:28:40] corporate y.

Lwai Almasri: I think something.

Payman Langroudi: To do with business. Okay, [01:28:45] yeah.

Lwai Almasri: But that’s not as a as as. Why not? Maybe then say open up an institute or [01:28:50] something like that as a business y a Dental corporate. Because I think dentistry in the UK is something that’s very [01:28:55] there’s not enough practices. I think the thing is, is that there’s loads of practices [01:29:00] but not enough good practices, I think. Right. If you get what I mean, without [01:29:05] trying to throw shade on a lot of practices, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Think there’s enough good of anything. [01:29:10] Yeah, there’s not enough good. Exactly. Anything.

Lwai Almasri: Exactly. So, so I don’t think [01:29:15] there’s enough good practices where where it’s easily accessible to patients. I [01:29:20] mean, as we know, NHS dentistry is literally crumbling. So something like that [01:29:25] would be something that I’ve always kind of wanted to, to solve.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. It’s ambitious. [01:29:30]

Lwai Almasri: To say I’m going to.

Payman Langroudi: Solve it, I get it, I get it right. So but corporate sort of implies many [01:29:35] sites, doesn’t it. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So I want to. I want to be able to do like. I don’t want to just say that because [01:29:40] also I like travelling. So I don’t want to just live in London for my whole life. I want to be able to go [01:29:45] and do something in Manchester or even abroad. International corporate, be [01:29:50] able to go abroad and travel and do things all across the world and stuff like that.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But many sites [01:29:55] is like a much more complicated way of doing one [01:30:00] site. Yeah. Of course. So. So then do you have in your head this idea of this one site, like what is it about [01:30:05] this one site, this this brand. Yeah. That’s different to what’s out there right [01:30:10] now. Mhm. Do you have an idea.

Lwai Almasri: Of of what, what I do with that one site.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [01:30:15] I mean like okay you’ve got, you could be a McDonald’s corporate. It could be a [01:30:20] Louis Vuitton corporate. Yeah. Yeah. What is it about your particular [01:30:25] corporate that makes it different. And it makes it better than what’s there already. That [01:30:30] thought is important. Right. Because as you start taking it to. I had someone in Hit the [01:30:35] Bupa runs. Bupa 400 practices. As you go from 1 to 2 [01:30:40] to 50 to 100, it gets way, way, way more complicated. Delivering that brand? [01:30:45] Yeah. Yeah. So there’s got to be something about it other than, you know, I just want to have this empire. [01:30:50] Yeah. Which I get as well. There is that.

Lwai Almasri: Of course. But by corporate, I don’t mean [01:30:55] anything to the scale of Bupa. I mean, it’d be nice, but I don’t [01:31:00] even personally want to open something that reaches something, because at 400, [01:31:05] I don’t think as me personally, I could have control over [01:31:10] making sure all 400 practices are up to exactly how I want to have them, [01:31:15] if that makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: I get that, I get that, but you do accept that a better man than you could pull it off? [01:31:20] Of course. Like. Because what I’m saying is there’s 400 Louis Vuitton shops all over the world.

Lwai Almasri: 100%. [01:31:25]

Payman Langroudi: They’re all doing what? Louis Vuitton shops do. Yeah. You know. So. But go on. I mean, [01:31:30] look, that’s the reason why it makes sense to have one perfect practice. Which [01:31:35] is nothing wrong with that either, right? Of course. Beautiful thing in itself.

Lwai Almasri: And the point is, is that you will always start [01:31:40] with that, hopefully one. So that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Reason why I asked you about, you know, why corporate. Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: Because [01:31:45] for me I want to like I said, I love the travelling aspect and I want to be able to make it accessible. And [01:31:50] so to be accessible by definition, you need to be able to be in all quite.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult when both your mom and your [01:31:55] dad are dentists, in a way, you’ve got to do something even more spectacular than what they did.

Lwai Almasri: I’ve always [01:32:00] said because my dad, he’s I have nothing [01:32:05] but admiration and respect, and for what he’s done and he’s he’s smashed it essentially. [01:32:10] And I look up to him as a mentor and as a father figure, of course, [01:32:15] and stuff like that. So, I mean, it is tough because a lot of people do say this to me [01:32:20] is like, are you not trying to, like, then beat? It’s not that I don’t think I will, it’s just that I’ve [01:32:25] never thought of it as competing with what he does because even my dad, like a lot of everything that he set up, he [01:32:30] set it up to for for us to then take over. And, you know, my oldest sister is doing medicine. [01:32:35] My little sister wants to do dentistry. So, like, he’s kind of done it in that sense where [01:32:40] take over from him, which is why I always want to do my want to be able to do my own thing, because I don’t want [01:32:45] to be just known as the person that took over from his dad. I want to have I want to have achieved something [01:32:50] like from my own, you know, cause and my dad was never the type of person like he did [01:32:55] clinical dentistry, but he was. My dad loves academic dentistry and he loves teaching and he loves learning. [01:33:00] And he did a PhD, an MSC, uh, an MBA. [01:33:05] So like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Lwai Almasri: So my dad loves studying and even now he takes [01:33:10] the definition of CPD very seriously. He continues to.

Payman Langroudi: Did he do his undergrad in Syria? [01:33:15]

Lwai Almasri: He did do his undergrad in Syria. And he did he.

Payman Langroudi: Like getting through into [01:33:20] dental school in countries like that and out of dental school. So actually super competitive Syria. [01:33:25]

Lwai Almasri: The way that their A-level system works is actually you sit the exams and then based on what you get, you [01:33:30] apply to what you can.

Payman Langroudi: Apply.

Lwai Almasri: The exam was out of like I probably am very wrong, but just [01:33:35] to say as figure because the the ratio still works the same. Say the exam [01:33:40] totally your A-levels across all subjects. Bear in mind they do. They don’t do three. They do everything [01:33:45] for A-levels. They have to do everything. They do English, French and then they do maths, physics, [01:33:50] biology. They have to do everything. Say it’s out of 350 to get into [01:33:55] medical school and dental school, which are the two hardest things to get into. You have to get like 300 [01:34:00] and 49.5 out of 350 to get in.

Payman Langroudi: It’s even I’d say [01:34:05] it’s way more, way, way more competitive than getting in here.

Lwai Almasri: Oh, 100%, 100%. I’ve got cousins [01:34:10] that are still there that she got in and she got in by like a quarter of a mark, like [01:34:15] like in that ratio. It was like 349.75 [01:34:20] out of 350. Like she dropped a quarter of a mark. That means across every crazy [01:34:25] when you think of it, it’s so competitive. So yeah, he did his undergrad there and then he did [01:34:30] more here at Queen Mary’s UCL and whatnot.

Saif Mukadam: So [01:34:35] we don’t want to see myself in ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years what? Like what?

Saif Mukadam: Hopefully still playing football. [01:34:40] No, no, no. I’m joking. Um, so I’ve got my big sister. She’s a she’s [01:34:45] a dentist as well. So hopefully, like, in ten years time I want to work with her family.

Payman Langroudi: Business [01:34:50] like.

Saif Mukadam: That. Yeah. Because I’ve always I’ve been in a family business, like printing and whatnot. [01:34:55] So I see the positives in a family business. But there’s also dark times in a family business [01:35:00] as well. Like, of course when things get really, it’s like in the thick of it, like, yeah, it [01:35:05] can get really dark. And yeah, so I can see like the negatives of that too. But [01:35:10] the thought of, you know, working alongside my sister in the dental practice or whatnot, [01:35:15] my sister, my other sister, I’ve got another sister. Maybe she can be like, um, some kind of [01:35:20] individual within the practice manager or something where I can get, like a proper family [01:35:25] business going, their to practice and whatnot. I think that for me was what.

Payman Langroudi: Inspires. [01:35:30]

Saif Mukadam: You? It’s what it’s what I want to work towards because I did my work experience with my sister and like, [01:35:35] just like shadowing her, seeing how she’s doing what her daily life is like. It’s just like amazing [01:35:40] because you get to stay in their lives as well, because a lot of sibling relationships will, you [01:35:45] know, they’ll go down their own path. And, you know, there’s nothing wrong with that at all. But like, you know, they.

Lwai Almasri: Get married, they [01:35:50] have kids.

Saif Mukadam: They do their own thing. But if there’s a way to, like, bring us back together and keep us together, like going the [01:35:55] long term would be absolutely amazing to have.

Payman Langroudi: I started this company with my best friends from [01:36:00] from university, and it’s a it’s a wonderful thing that we stay [01:36:05] in touch with each other now.

Lwai Almasri: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I was going to add that hopefully also in ten years we’re continuing [01:36:10] UK Dental students or whatever it could be called in ten years time. Yeah. But [01:36:15] um, yeah, hopefully that there’s no.

Saif Mukadam: Like I working alongside someone and succeeding [01:36:20] with someone else I think is a lot. It’s a much better feeling than just doing it on your own 100% [01:36:25] like you can.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not only the feeling, dude. It’s also that you’re not good at everything.

Saif Mukadam: Yeah, [01:36:30] true. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like you’re saying, your sister. Maybe your sister is amazing at raising cash. Yeah. Yeah. [01:36:35] Like, for the corporate idea, someone needs to know how to raise money. Of course. Yeah. Like, you talk [01:36:40] to anyone who’s got a corporate. That’s one of the biggest issues. And maybe you’re amazing at clinical. [01:36:45] Yeah. So you become clinical director. She becomes finance director. Yeah. You know those [01:36:50] complementary skills? Super, super super important.

Lwai Almasri: 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Guys, [01:36:55] it’s been a massive pleasure. So if someone wants to become a member, what do they do?

Lwai Almasri: They just find us [01:37:00] on Instagram and then search UK dental students on Instagram. And then in the link in the bio, [01:37:05] there’s a link to join the WhatsApp group. I mean, give us a follow on Instagram of course, but join the WhatsApp group [01:37:10] for UK.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is the name of the Instagram page.

Lwai Almasri: Uk dental student.

Payman Langroudi: Dental. Student. Sorry. Dental. Uk dentistry. Yeah. [01:37:15] Um, and then they can just go through the link, the WhatsApp link in the bio.

Lwai Almasri: It’s [01:37:20] just a link in the bio. You click, it sends you straight to WhatsApp and you can join.

Saif Mukadam: You join it. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Lwai Almasri: Nice and easy. [01:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: So I look forward to the event as well. Thank you very.

Lwai Almasri: Much. Hope to see you there. Yeah, of.

Payman Langroudi: Course I’ll [01:37:30] do my best. We haven’t got date here.

Lwai Almasri: Yeah. No, no date yet, but we’ll drop you a message. Of course, when we do. Cool. [01:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much, guys. No. Thank you. My pleasure.

Lwai Almasri: Thank you very much. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:37:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [01:37:45] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:37:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:37:55]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole [01:38:00] thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening [01:38:05] to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out [01:38:10] of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if [01:38:15] you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so [01:38:20] much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health and [00:00:15] optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hey [00:00:25] everyone, welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. As always, I try to bring some of the most interesting, [00:00:30] eclectic guests to you to share stories of inspiration and most [00:00:35] importantly, try to understand how these people overcame adversity. I think it’s so important [00:00:40] that we understand people’s stories, what makes them who they are. Before we [00:00:45] jump to the conclusion that it’s luck and I’ve got one of my amazing patients and an [00:00:50] incredible content creator makeup artist, Boss Woman also has her own [00:00:55] podcast, so we’ve got Adiola Boga. She’s a seasoned makeup artist, A beauty expert [00:01:00] with over a decade in the industry experience. Having collaborated with prominent beauty [00:01:05] brands, she is renowned for her skin first philosophy, emphasising the crucial role of [00:01:10] exceptional skincare in achieving flawless makeup. Through her online tutorials, she [00:01:15] shares her coveted glow techniques, fostering a devoted community of followers known as [00:01:20] glow getters. With a commitment to enhancing beauty through education, Adeola is [00:01:25] a beacon of radiant inspiration in the makeup world. So welcome! [00:01:30]

Adeola Gboyega: Thank you for having me.

Rhona Eskander: It’s so fantastic to have you. So Adeola, [00:01:35] I like to start from the beginning. Tell us, are you actually a London girl? [00:01:40]

Adeola Gboyega: No, I’m not actually. So I used to live in London. That’s like where I started, but I actually [00:01:45] live outside of London, in Hertfordshire. Now when I say Hertfordshire, everyone’s like, oh, where? Because it’s such a big area. [00:01:50] Um, so I actually live in Cheshunt. Um, but I used to live in north London, [00:01:55] so that’s kind of where I started. Um, And then we moved out of London and then kind of slowly [00:02:00] edging back in. So yeah, I love that.

Rhona Eskander: And tell us a little bit about your childhood. Yeah. [00:02:05]

Adeola Gboyega: So my mum’s a single mum. She raised my sister and I and obviously [00:02:10] like, you know, there’s been difficult aspects of my childhood and it’s not always been easy. [00:02:15] But one thing that was always, you know, at the forefront was just seeing my mum work really, really hard. [00:02:20] And she’s a teacher herself, but she’s retired now and she was always the one [00:02:25] that, you know, advised me that whatever you do, just be passionate about it. And I think because she’s a mum [00:02:30] now, I’m Nigerian and she saw what it was like when you had like parents that made you [00:02:35] do certain careers that you weren’t happy and passionate about, i.e. becoming a doctor or a lawyer. You [00:02:40] know, being Nigerian and being African, you’re kind of told and expected to kind of do certain jobs. [00:02:45] And I think my mum saw the kind of opposite side of that where, you know, people were working [00:02:50] in jobs that they weren’t happy about. So she always said, you know, I don’t mind what you do, just be happy. And [00:02:55] that’s kind of like where it all started. But she was honestly somebody that I really looked up to, and I [00:03:00] just realised that whatever I do, I know that I need to work hard to be successful.

Rhona Eskander: So obviously [00:03:05] I come from a middle eastern background. I’ve got lots of Nigerian friends, and one of the big common things [00:03:10] that we had in common is the onus on education. So you just said that your mum [00:03:15] just wanted you to kind of be happy and make sure that you work hard. Did that mean that she was okay, [00:03:20] for example, with you not being in a career that was vocational or something [00:03:25] that would have definite security?

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, I think for me there was always [00:03:30] different things I wanted to do. At one point I wanted to be a paediatrician, and then I did work experience working in a hospital. [00:03:35] And then I realised I’m way too emotional for this. I could never do it. And especially in a role [00:03:40] like that, you have to kind of like go in and do your job and then not bring it home. And but I’m very [00:03:45] much a person that’s very empathetic and I care about people and I always want to kind of support them. And I think [00:03:50] for me, I couldn’t have like gone into a job like that. And then at one point I wanted to be [00:03:55] a TV presenter. There were so many different things that I wanted to do. But she always made me realise [00:04:00] that, you know, just do your schoolwork, get your education, go to university. That was her only thing that I [00:04:05] had to go to university. And then I studied media and communications because I wasn’t really sure exactly what I wanted [00:04:10] to do, but I knew that I wanted to work in, you know, media, magazine, print. And also I loved [00:04:15] beauty. And so I actually did my career or my sort of like, course thinking [00:04:20] I was going to like, you know, work in glossy magazines such as Vogue. And then that didn’t really happen for me. [00:04:25] Like my degree was very different for what I expected. And but I did my degree, [00:04:30] I got a tutu and I felt like I made my mum happy. But then after that, I then thought, do you know what [00:04:35] I have to do? What makes me happy? And that’s when I then retrained as a makeup artist.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:04:40] you know what’s interesting? I mean, excuse me for asking this. You should never ask a lady how old [00:04:45] she is, but are you a millennial?

Adeola Gboyega: I think I am, yeah. Yeah. When were you? 35. I’m 35, [00:04:50] so I think I’m a millennial. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So growing up, what I really remember [00:04:55] as being so prominent is beauty standards that were really unattainable for women like [00:05:00] you and I. And the reason why I say that is because there were front covers of Kate Moss and [00:05:05] skinny white women, and I remember going to university and a lot of people [00:05:10] being perplexed when I used to get asked for modelling or asked to go to castings because [00:05:15] I didn’t fit that certain type of beauty standard. I found that really, really hard [00:05:20] growing up, and for me, that deterred me from the beauty industry. It didn’t necessarily [00:05:25] want me to go into it because I just thought, I’m different. I’m not considered beautiful, so [00:05:30] why would I go into something like that? What’s your experience of that, [00:05:35] and what was your experience of black beauty and, you know, feeling inspired to go into the beauty industry. [00:05:40]

Adeola Gboyega: So I didn’t again, like see a lot of examples of, you know, um, [00:05:45] black women working in the beauty industry. And if I did see anyone, it was someone that I felt was very [00:05:50] far removed. So I know we were talking earlier about Pat McGrath. You know, she’s a successful black makeup artist, [00:05:55] probably the most influential black makeup artist in the world. But unless you’re in [00:06:00] that area and in that industry, you wouldn’t really know that who she was. And that’s why I think [00:06:05] I struggled and kind of felt found it quite difficult to kind of go into my career and went into my career quite late. [00:06:10] Um, so it wasn’t until after I did my degree that I actually then retrained as a makeup artist. And probably [00:06:15] because of that and why I think it’s so important to have representation, because maybe if I’d seen other [00:06:20] makeup artists or was in the midst of others that I felt really inspired by, I would have felt that I could [00:06:25] have gone into that career a lot earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Um, we get that in dentistry too. So I [00:06:30] had Yewande here and she was saying she never considered being a dentist until she saw [00:06:35] Uchenna. Yeah. Do you know Uchenna? Okay.

Rhona Eskander: Was it Uchenna.

Payman Langroudi: That inspired on the TV and saw [00:06:40] that someone who looks like her could be a successful dentist?

Adeola Gboyega: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what she went through. But [00:06:45] the when you say a black makeup artist, is it necessarily that a black make up artist [00:06:50] knows about black skin, or is that not necessarily the case?

Adeola Gboyega: I mean, I feel like as a makeup artist, the [00:06:55] key strength should be that you should be able to do every skin tone just depending on who you are and [00:07:00] what your skin type is and what your skin tone is. But unfortunately, it isn’t that case, you know, [00:07:05] and I think even when I trained as a makeup artist and I would go to school, it was literally like a small [00:07:10] like segment of our sort of syllabus was being taught about black skin. And I feel like that is again [00:07:15] the downfall of like the education and teaching in terms of like not giving us like, you know, [00:07:20] a long sort of like time and a slot to kind of understand, like skin tones, complexions and the complexities [00:07:25] of it. Um, and so again, I think it’s so, so important to have that representation [00:07:30] because to your point, it was only for me being able to be in the midst of those industries and see [00:07:35] later on in life, I thought, actually, I could do this. I didn’t feel like I could before. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was your mum [00:07:40] strict? Nonetheless, Nigerian mums and dads tend to be. Or [00:07:45] was she not? Was she out of the box in that sense.

Adeola Gboyega: She was strict, and I did have a strict upbringing, [00:07:50] but I think it’s because we went through a lot and I felt like she had to be very protective of me. So, for example, I didn’t [00:07:55] have my dad actively in my life like looking after me. So again, there was a lot of like her making [00:08:00] sure that I was looked after on her part because I didn’t have a dad or a father figure around that could [00:08:05] support me in that sense. And so, yeah, in some elements she was, but at the same time, she was very [00:08:10] open in terms of like, if I feel like there’s a certain career that I wanted to go for. Yeah, go and explore it and see how you feel. [00:08:15]

Payman Langroudi: Because in the community, when you tell someone, I’m in beauty. Yeah. Is there still [00:08:20] stigma? Do they still sort of because.

Rhona Eskander: You know, like the the thing that my parents are so [00:08:25] proud of is, um, when you say you’re going to be a doctor and I’m sure that’s like in the Iranian, you know, like, my [00:08:30] son’s a doctor, my daughter’s a doctor, you know, they love that. And it’s very hard to deter [00:08:35] away from that. And it’s almost like above all in life, but they’re a doctor. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:08:40] someone I know fell in love with a dancer. Yeah. And she was. She was a fantastic, like, modern [00:08:45] dancer used to go all over the world like dancing, touring. And, uh, her parents said, what do you mean? You’re [00:08:50] going to marry a dancer? Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: Like social media has changed that because I think now. Because [00:08:55] now people.

Rhona Eskander: Are gonna be like, I’ve fallen in love with a YouTuber. Do you know what I mean? Like, watch out. Your kids [00:09:00] might come home and be like, dad, I’ve fallen in love with, like, a TikToker. Do you know what I mean?

Adeola Gboyega: You know, like, I feel like that is [00:09:05] like when you ask kids, now, what do you want to be when you grow up? Before it might have been, I want to be a doctor. I want to be this [00:09:10] and that. Yeah. Now it’s like I want to be a content creator.

Payman Langroudi: The new president of Romania that has [00:09:15] just become, or just about to become the president of Romania, did not exist in the political scene until [00:09:20] six months ago. And then he did a TikTok only campaign. Only on TikTok, nowhere [00:09:25] else. And he’s about to become president of Romania. Yeah, this Trump character is right winger.

Adeola Gboyega: And [00:09:30] this is literally like the power of social media and how it just changed everything. And, you know, the question that you asked me [00:09:35] earlier about is there like a stigma? I think back in the day. So I started my in the industry in about 2012, [00:09:40] and obviously I didn’t have social media then. It wasn’t like a big thing. But [00:09:45] I would obviously like get a few comments, like, I’ve gone to university and I’ve done media and communications [00:09:50] and now I want to go and become a makeup artist, kind of like, oh, where’s that come from? But then now it’s like, you [00:09:55] know, everyone refers to me, oh, Adeola, you know, I know her, but she’s on, you know, social media. So it’s definitely [00:10:00] changed now because of social media. Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: I want to reflect [00:10:05] and rewind a little bit now because you said representation is really important. Um, [00:10:10] I had a conversation with a guy that I met on Sunday. [00:10:15] Uh, he was um, from I think he was half Chinese, half [00:10:20] Jamaican. Um, and he was saying openly, you know, he’s the one that brought up the conversation [00:10:25] that he thought that Black Lives Matter wasn’t necessarily something [00:10:30] that was helpful to the community [00:10:35] or to his representation. And I thought that was an interesting stance. And it’s always important to hear [00:10:40] other people’s stance, because from my perspective, I was so happy that that had happened. Obviously not the events, [00:10:45] but the representation, because all of a sudden I was seeing black people at the forefront [00:10:50] in fashion, beauty, other industries, and that made me really proud and really happy. And [00:10:55] I thought for all those years of oppression, you know, you can never undo what had been done. [00:11:00] But, you know, they deserve to have the limelight. They deserve [00:11:05] to have the opportunities. I want to ask you how you felt about that whole movement, [00:11:10] and whether you think it was a good thing or a bad thing, and how it affected the beauty industry in [00:11:15] particular.

Adeola Gboyega: I think it was a moment that kind of stood still for a lot of people, [00:11:20] because when you think about when it happened, it was during lockdown and I, you know, really remember [00:11:25] that time because it was just it was just such a [00:11:30] crazy time at the at the time when it all happened. I think this is why it’s [00:11:35] important to take everybody’s individual experiences into consideration, because obviously Black Lives Matter as a movement [00:11:40] is so important, and it did highlight a lot of things. But again, like each individual [00:11:45] person’s experience is different. So that person’s experience was kind of like I found it quite negative. I didn’t love it [00:11:50] and it was a very negative time, especially for black people, because again, the highlight is on you [00:11:55] and then people are coming to you for answers. So I remembered a lot of my friends that weren’t black were [00:12:00] like messaging me, being like, oh, you know, was there ever a time that I maybe did something wrong or, you [00:12:05] know, is there anything that I could have done differently? And there was a lot of pressure for me to kind of feel like I could give them [00:12:10] some sort of like, relief, because they obviously felt guilty about a lot of things that they were going through. [00:12:15] But it was good because it highlighted a lot of things. For example, you know, even to this day [00:12:20] as a black woman, makeup artist, content creator, I don’t get paid nearly enough as [00:12:25] what my white counterparts do.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s still a pay gap.

Adeola Gboyega: Even to this day, and [00:12:30] to the point where Black Lives Matter was an amazing, you know, situation because it highlighted a lot of things. [00:12:35] But even now, I still feel like the change that, you know, people say has been made or it kind [00:12:40] of like highlighted, it’s still going back. If anything, I don’t know if it even did actually change. [00:12:45] Really. 100%. Absolutely. That’s so.

Rhona Eskander: Interesting. Yeah, I think [00:12:50] I had heard as well that there was still a pay gap issue. But why do you think that is? And why do you think [00:12:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: Companies the size of the market isn’t as big?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, the size.

Adeola Gboyega: Of the market isn’t that big. [00:13:00] Um, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of companies and brands don’t see value in, [00:13:05] you know, black content creators, black makeup artists. And I think a lot of the time people [00:13:10] feel like they’re paying for, you know, for example. Okay, well, I know that [00:13:15] it’s it’s it’s good to be seen that I’m supporting and paying a black content creator, [00:13:20] but they’re still going to pay you less than, for example, a white content creator, because they feel like they’re just [00:13:25] ticking a box and it’s something that they have to do, but they still don’t see the value. And when someone doesn’t see the value in something, [00:13:30] their actions aren’t going to change. They’re going to do it because they feel like they have to. But when you ask them at [00:13:35] the core, like, do you feel like they got paid better or the right amount? They’re probably [00:13:40] going to agree and be like, actually, no, because they would have paid another content creator that’s done exactly the same job and can pay [00:13:45] campaign that I’ve done. And the fee that they got was marginally more than what I would [00:13:50] have got paid. But at least they’re going to be like, but at least we’ve given our money, or at least we’ve paid that person. [00:13:55]

Rhona Eskander: Do you challenge the brands on that?

Adeola Gboyega: Yes and no. Because obviously there’s a [00:14:00] part of me that’s kind of like, well, at least I’m getting paid. When you’re self-employed and you’re working for yourself, there’s obviously a responsibility [00:14:05] that you have to obviously make money. Um, but then I also I do my due diligence. [00:14:10] I have some amazing friends in the industry. Um, you know, someone like Lisa Potter Dixon, who I love dearly. [00:14:15] You know, she really supported and helped me when I was coming in the industry. And we have open conversations about [00:14:20] money and finances. And I think that’s a very important thing, because when people don’t talk [00:14:25] about things, how are you meant to know? When I came into the industry, I wasn’t having conversations about pay, so [00:14:30] I was getting paid thinking, actually, I think I’m doing okay. But it was only when I started speaking to other people [00:14:35] that don’t look like me and actually seeing like, the massive pay gap, that’s when I was able [00:14:40] to kind of be like, actually, I can fight my corner now and I have a leg to stand on and have a conversation because I [00:14:45] know what other people are getting paid. But do you.

Payman Langroudi: Do you worry that, like on the other side of it, that sort of the [00:14:50] tokenism of it?

Adeola Gboyega: Absolutely. And it still happens. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The people are including [00:14:55] you because they kind of have to from the and it still happens.

Adeola Gboyega: And there’s, you know, there’s a good and bad [00:15:00] part about it. You know, I want to show up for things because I think it’s important for people to see that I’m in those [00:15:05] spaces. But at the same time, I also got to think, well, actually, is it [00:15:10] actually helping me by being in those spaces if I don’t feel like it’s genuine? And so I won’t work with a brand [00:15:15] that’s not genuine. You know, I will go onto their page and see, have they worked with any other black and Asian [00:15:20] content creators or anyone that you know isn’t just a white person? Because I think it’s important that [00:15:25] you’re not just working with me, but are you going to be working with others throughout the line? Is it going to be consistent? Consistency [00:15:30] is key.

Payman Langroudi: And have you got access to. When I say access, do you are [00:15:35] you paying attention to the culture, the pop culture in Africa? [00:15:40] And I mean, Nigeria has got some massive music acts now. So like you’d imagine that’s [00:15:45] where there’d be beauty brands popping out of as well. Yeah, there’s.

Adeola Gboyega: A huge, huge business. I [00:15:50] went to Nigeria about two years ago now, and there’s a lady called Erica [00:15:55] Freemantle who has a platform called Airtel, and it’s basically embracing [00:16:00] all tones of women. And she actually did a, um, sort [00:16:05] of thing where she kind of invited loads of different people from the beauty industry, dentists, [00:16:10] and we all actually went to Nigeria and actually went to kind of see what businesses like out there. [00:16:15] It’s booming like it’s huge. You know, there’s a lot of people that have a lot of money. Obviously [00:16:20] there’s a lot of, you know, and.

Rhona Eskander: Nollywood is huge.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, Nollywood is huge.

Rhona Eskander: Nollywood is so [00:16:25] there’s Hollywood, Bollywood, Nollywood. Oh really. Yeah. And Nollywood. So when I went to Nigeria, one of my best friends [00:16:30] Ceci. Her twin sister is a Nollywood actress. Wow. Um. And [00:16:35] I was like, opened up to this completely different world. But like Nollywood is absolutely huge, massive, [00:16:40] huge. It’s, you know, really, really big. And the beauty.

Adeola Gboyega: Industry is huge over there as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Does anything [00:16:45] manage to jump over and come into Europe from there?

Adeola Gboyega: I wouldn’t say you should be that person, [00:16:50] but I think the other way round is then there’s a lot of people that are actually like leaving the UK and going back home because they [00:16:55] see that there’s massive opportunities out there, and I even saw that myself. Yeah, yeah. But again, it’s a lot about who, you [00:17:00] know, it’s very important to have good relationships and very like strong relationships out there because, you know, [00:17:05] you can go to Nigeria and make really serious money overnight if you know the right people and make [00:17:10] the right connections. Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, 100%. I mean, Nigeria fascinated me as well because [00:17:15] I actually went thinking it was going to be this like beautiful, untouched, like Haven. [00:17:20] And I was really disappointed because what was very stark to me was the amount [00:17:25] of corruption there was in the country. And they don’t look after their people. They don’t look after the country. [00:17:30] There was mounds of rubbish everywhere. And I was like, hang on a second. And then you go into these like incredibly [00:17:35] beautiful homes, you know, that are done up and you can really see that the government’s intentions [00:17:40] aren’t really with the people. So it was quite an interesting thing for me to see from a cultural point of view. [00:17:45] Yeah. Um, but no, I’m really, really fascinated [00:17:50] by what you’re saying. And I do think representation really matters. Dentistry is a funny [00:17:55] one, isn’t it? Because white people are like a minority in dentistry. You know, you get barely [00:18:00] any white people, so the majority would be Asian. And then like, there’s a lot of Iranians [00:18:05] and some Middle Easterns as well. Very few white people and very few [00:18:10] black people. And I think, you know, there’s also like medical societies now for that representation [00:18:15] for black doctors and dentists, which I think is super important as well. And I feel really passionate [00:18:20] about that. Obviously, you know, being a middle eastern woman, it’s really different. But [00:18:25] I remember like the bullying I got during university for being Middle Eastern [00:18:30] or even, you know, being labelled as like coming from a terrorist country or my parents, [00:18:35] you know, certain, um, prejudices against my parents. Like it was really tough for me. [00:18:40] And so for me, I’m like, yeah, you know, this stuff really matters. And I guess I’ve been a little [00:18:45] bubble because when I was seeing that representation come through, I was like, this is great. Things are [00:18:50] changing and I think things have changed, but more needs to be done. What do you think could be [00:18:55] done more?

Adeola Gboyega: Again, I think just valuing the [00:19:00] valuing the kind of content creators, the makeup artists and what they actually [00:19:05] kind of bring to the table. Um, you know, for me, I’ve really wanted to kind of give back and [00:19:10] kind of make sure that when I’m in those spaces, what can I do to kind of help the next generation? Because [00:19:15] I didn’t really have that when I was first starting. It was very much, what could I do to prove that I need to be here? [00:19:20] I didn’t really have anyone to kind of support me when I first wanted to become a makeup artist. [00:19:25] And so now it’s like, well, what can I do to kind of support anyone that’s up and coming? So I remember like for example, when [00:19:30] the Black Lives Matter movement happened, I didn’t really want to have a lot of conversations about what was going on [00:19:35] and kind of like have negative conversations. So I just said, look, if anyone’s in the industry that, you know, wants [00:19:40] to go into beauty and, you know, are from like, you know, black and ethnic minorities, [00:19:45] we can have like a one hour zoom session and I can kind of help you and support you because I just felt like, let [00:19:50] me focus my energy into the areas that are more important and where can I support? Because I think [00:19:55] that’s a really, really important thing. I don’t want to be having conversations about, woe is me. I’m not getting opportunities. [00:20:00] Yeah, victim. You know, I don’t want to be in that victim mentality. There’s so many things that have happened in my life [00:20:05] that people won’t even know about. If I kind of was in that victim mentality and mindset, [00:20:10] I’m always like, okay, well, this has happened. What can I do to kind of make it better? Um, and [00:20:15] so I think that’s a really important thing. But again, I think in the industry there needs to be more value placed on [00:20:20] black creators, on black people and what they’ve actually essentially brought to the table and how it’s so important [00:20:25] to the industry.

Rhona Eskander: So what kind of things have you overcome in your [00:20:30] childhood teenage hood that have built up your resilience?

Adeola Gboyega: So for me, my [00:20:35] mental health was something that I very much struggled with, but I didn’t realise how badly until I got a lot older. [00:20:40] And so, like we were having this conversation earlier about how I really suffered with high functioning [00:20:45] depression. So I’ve always been someone that’s very much into like working hard [00:20:50] and it’s worked in my favour. I’ve had some amazing opportunities that have arisen from it. [00:20:55] But then when, for example, things didn’t really work out in my, you know, career [00:21:00] and I was having a very difficult time and I wasn’t really kind of getting the sort of, um, [00:21:05] not necessarily like the payback, but when I wasn’t really getting the kind of experiences that I wanted [00:21:10] or felt like I deserved, I really, really suffered with my mental health because for me, it was always like, well, if I [00:21:15] give 110% in my career, I’m going to get X amount back. But it doesn’t always work that way. So [00:21:20] I had to really understand and unlearn that my value isn’t placed in like me achieving [00:21:25] things. So I was always like high achiever. Amazing opportunities. Opportunities always keep busy [00:21:30] and I’m always going to be happy. But then I would have those things and I was still chasing that happiness, [00:21:35] that quote unquote happiness that I was expecting. And it didn’t always happen that way. And so I had to really [00:21:40] unlearn that and then obviously go to therapy to kind of really help myself in that space.

Rhona Eskander: How old were you when you started therapy? [00:21:45]

Adeola Gboyega: So I had an initial, um, round of therapy when I went to my doctor’s [00:21:50] one time and I was like, I’m really struggling with my mental health. I think I was about [00:21:55] mid 20s. Um, and then obviously with that it was great. But [00:22:00] then you only get a certain amount. So there’s obviously struggling with.

Payman Langroudi: Your mental health. Just talk [00:22:05] me through it. What does that actually mean with panic attacks or.

Adeola Gboyega: No. Constantly crying. [00:22:10] Constantly crying. Yeah. Constantly crying like any little thing I would cry. Triggered. Triggered. [00:22:15] Yeah. Um, what else would it be? Always working, constantly [00:22:20] working. Like for me it was like work, work, work, work, work.

Payman Langroudi: And then if you stopped working, you’d get [00:22:25] sad. Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: So for example, lockdown. Yeah. I’d never experienced being at home for that amount of time. Every [00:22:30] job that I’ve had would be me travelling constantly. Um, so for example, when I was working at Bobbi Brown, [00:22:35] I was a pro makeup artist, so I would literally get a calendar and it would say, [00:22:40] you’ll be in this city tomorrow, you’ll be in Manchester tomorrow, you’ll be in Birmingham the next day. I was hardly ever [00:22:45] at home. And then when I worked for Pat McGrath, it was the same thing. I think I probably travelled to over like ten, [00:22:50] 15 countries in one year. Um, constantly on the go. Do you feel.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t also enjoy [00:22:55] the bits you should have enjoyed? You were like.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Like the in like watching yourself [00:23:00] from above or something.

Adeola Gboyega: So like outside, everyone would look at me and be like, oh my God, I do always have this, like glamorous [00:23:05] experience. Like you’re travelling constantly, but then I’m coming home and I’m literally like [00:23:10] crying. Crying, like upset all the time. Wasn’t enjoying things. And it just got to the point [00:23:15] where I just felt like even my job, which is the thing that used to bring me so much joy, wasn’t making me happy [00:23:20] anymore. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Was it just talking that helped? Or did you take medication? [00:23:25] Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: So I was prescribed antidepressants, but then I decided against it because [00:23:30] I think, again, there was a stigma where I felt like if I then start taking medication and then I become [00:23:35] dependent on it, then there’s the fear of that. If that stops working, what’s going to be next?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:23:40] but therapy itself helped a lot. It did.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. Because one thing I have to, you know, explain [00:23:45] with therapy is that it’s an ongoing thing. And I’m even thinking about going back again. I think people think that, oh, it’s [00:23:50] like a band aid that you go to therapy for ten years.

Rhona Eskander: I’m still going. I’m still going. Literally. Yeah. [00:23:55]

Adeola Gboyega: And I tell people all the time, it is a journey because you go through different stages of life. For example, [00:24:00] how I function with my depression now is very different to how I functioned with my depression five [00:24:05] years ago. You know, I could meet someone tomorrow and be married or have children. [00:24:10] How am I then going to cope with that? And so I have to kind of think about myself in different facets and how my life [00:24:15] changes and how my mental health is going to change. And so I might need to go back in and be in and out [00:24:20] of therapy to be able to kind of deal with that.

Payman Langroudi: And then what happens? The therapist talks to you and then [00:24:25] you go in the end. Does he say, does it become a in your childhood being scared thing?

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, [00:24:30] I think.

Payman Langroudi: It gets to a point.

Adeola Gboyega: Where you then start to feel like, okay, I’ve outgrown the conversations [00:24:35] that we’re having, and I kind of feel like I’m in a good space, but then it doesn’t mean that that door is closed and [00:24:40] you can never go back again. It might even be as well that you might go to a different therapist, because they might specialise [00:24:45] in a certain thing. So for me, it might have been, for example, childhood trauma. And so I kind of [00:24:50] like worked with a therapist that really worked with that. And then next time it could just be about, okay, anxiety [00:24:55] or depression and how I’m kind of navigating life as an adult now. So again, it’s very important to kind [00:25:00] of like go to see someone that specialises in whatever it is that you’re dealing with at that time.

Rhona Eskander: I think also like, [00:25:05] look, my partner gives me a bit of a hard time because he’s like, you do so much therapy and coaching, [00:25:10] but like, what’s the point in just doing this copious amounts if you don’t have like boundless changes. And [00:25:15] I’m like, but that’s not the whole point. Because boundless like boundless change. Like you should have, like you [00:25:20] should big changes, you know, like in what you’re doing. But I’m like, that’s not really how [00:25:25] therapy works, because the therapist also has to work out things. They cannot tell you what to [00:25:30] do or how to behave. You have to sort of change your pattern of thinking. They [00:25:35] can challenge you depending on the type of therapy that you’re having. And it’s like that slow change [00:25:40] in thought patterns that can then change the behaviour.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about [00:25:45] what happens to you? I mean, yeah, she says she cries. So what happens to you?

Rhona Eskander: So what happened [00:25:50] was I first went to a therapist when I was.

Payman Langroudi: Like, what happens to you when you’re down? Like, so she cries.

Rhona Eskander: Um, [00:25:55] so what happens when I experience sense of [00:26:00] I tend to go in serious fight or flight mode. And what I recognised [00:26:05] is, is that my threat is emotional. [00:26:10] So when my threat is emotional, I go into a state of panic, and [00:26:15] I would say that a number of things can happen to me, like I can get shortness of breath, [00:26:20] but it’s also about catastrophic, like catastrophizing. Yeah, the [00:26:25] thought process. So like the emotional thing makes me feel like I’m going to die. Like, so, for example, [00:26:30] if I’ve gone through a Break-Up, I’m like, oh my God, like, this is so awful. [00:26:35] Like, I want to kill myself. Do you see what I mean? Now you see it, now.

Payman Langroudi: You see it for what it is.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:26:40] Kind of. But I think I hate being in that discomfort. Yeah. So the, the [00:26:45] the one thing that I want to do is self-soothe. And the one thing that I recognised about myself [00:26:50] when I was really young is that I don’t drink or take drugs [00:26:55] because I have a addictive personality. So sobriety was always a part of who I [00:27:00] was. But I think every human being, as someone like Gabor Mate recognises, [00:27:05] has some form of addiction. You know, he says that you could be even addicted, Twilight, whatever, for argument’s [00:27:10] sake. But I think that for me, I want to self-soothe. And my addiction [00:27:15] was validation. So my addiction was people telling me that I’m good enough. I think you’ll [00:27:20] find that that’s something that a lot of people on social media have as well. It’s why you’ve [00:27:25] got you’ve got this perpetual belief that you’re not good enough. And then people say, but you put yourself [00:27:30] out there. But then the pain of feeling not good enough actually propels you to put yourself out [00:27:35] there, because you want other people to tell you that you’re good enough. You know, it’s a sort of weird cycle that goes [00:27:40] on.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s where it becomes very difficult because people see you on [00:27:45] social media being super confident, and then they can’t understand, like, how can you be like that? [00:27:50] But I think this is where there’s danger, because people then have a certain perception of you and they don’t understand that [00:27:55] you could be struggling with something like that. And the trolls come. Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And you know, [00:28:00] Payman knows like and the trolls come and the trolls will come and be like, you’re so ugly, you need this, [00:28:05] you need that. And then I’m just like.

Payman Langroudi: Just the other side of you. Yeah. You without this, this [00:28:10] pod here and we’ve all been on your page. Looks at me. Looks [00:28:15] like. Looks like fun time.

Rhona Eskander: No.

Payman Langroudi: But. But then. But then on this pod, you say, [00:28:20] oh, I’m fat or something. I’m like, you’re not fat or I’m not enough or something.

Rhona Eskander: And I [00:28:25] think, I think it’s also the other thing is that, you know, the thing is, is that the state [00:28:30] of happiness is not about having more or to search for the exterior that you believe will make [00:28:35] you happy. It’s actually being happy with what you’ve got. And I think the problem is, is that I get in [00:28:40] a real compare and despair, because I will look at other people around me. I’m really blessed to have patients [00:28:45] like Adeola, like all these amazing influencers, but sometimes I’m like, if I was as [00:28:50] successful, pretty thin, you know, fun, [00:28:55] whatever it is as them, I would be happier because more people online would notice [00:29:00] me.

Payman Langroudi: We all have something, right?

Rhona Eskander: Totally, totally. But I think, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think that your Gabor mate point. [00:29:05] Yeah, or I might eat too much or, you know, Whatever it is, we all have something that keeps us, you [00:29:10] know, on the level. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got really, like, burning question for [00:29:15] an expert in the beauty industry. Yeah. Yeah. So, look, both of us have products. Mhm. Yeah. [00:29:20] Oral care products. And oral care is nowhere near as mature as skincare. [00:29:25] Right. And I walk with my daughter in a Sephora area, and she shows me, like, [00:29:30] 15 new brands that do different things or whatever. And I love it.

Rhona Eskander: You take your daughter to Sephora? [00:29:35] Just saying no. She takes me.

Payman Langroudi: She takes me. She knows I’m involved in packaging and all that. [00:29:40] So she’s showing me the packaging of the products. But okay. And I and I [00:29:45] listened to some of your stuff, and you’ve worked for Bobbi Brown and Clarins and and many other [00:29:50] big brands. How much of it is the brand, [00:29:55] sort of what the brand stands for, and how much of it is the [00:30:00] actual product that, that, that you’re using? Because how can it be? You’ve got 300 [00:30:05] brands. More, right? Yeah. You’ve got 506 [00:30:10] step processes here. How can it be that each of these are different? And when I listen to my [00:30:15] daughter and I watch my daughter, she’s into what brand values more than the products. But [00:30:20] then there are certain products that she says, oh, these are so just just talk me through that because [00:30:25] we’re, we’re at we’re doing toothpaste. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:30:30] bet you can’t name more than four toothpaste. You know, like so toothpaste. For some reason, it stops at [00:30:35] the lips, right? Yeah. And suddenly toothpaste has become a thing, you know, with hi smile and [00:30:40] moon and those things. So talk me through how much of it is brand when you’re looking at a at [00:30:45] a at a beauty company? And how much of it is products?

Adeola Gboyega: It’s a [00:30:50] very good question. Yeah, it’s such a good question. And I think this is and you know, I always [00:30:55] talk about social media because I’m so fascinated by it. But it’s because now there’s such a [00:31:00] democracy in terms of everybody has a voice. Yeah. And everyone has a voice.

Payman Langroudi: Voice? [00:31:05] Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: Because brands can only do so much. They can obviously like, do the packaging and then obviously they’ve got their [00:31:10] marketing. But at the end of the day, if someone doesn’t have an affinity with it and doesn’t kind of bond with [00:31:15] the message or the product, they’re not going to use it. So, you know, when I think of Rona, what you’ve [00:31:20] done is that you’ve created a community, and that’s why people love you and they come to you. And like, for example, when I think [00:31:25] about the kind of people that were coming to you, I came into, you know, have my teeth done because of that. [00:31:30] And I think that’s where it’s very important. You can only go so far with a good product. It could be the best [00:31:35] product out there. But I think what people are looking for now is what does it mean when I use [00:31:40] that product? What does it signify? So for example it could be this toothpaste is [00:31:45] amazing. But then I’ve seen, for example, another celebrity that I actually really admire that’s literally vetoed [00:31:50] that thing and said, it’s an amazing thing. Oh, I now feel like I’ve got a piece of that product. And also [00:31:55] I’m kind of like slightly aligned with said person. When I first started working in the industry, [00:32:00] I remember working for a skincare brand and they didn’t even have foundations for my skin [00:32:05] tone. This was only, what, 1012 years ago? Same. And I literally [00:32:10] vowed to myself that I’m never, ever going to work with a brand that doesn’t represent me. And it’s so important because [00:32:15] there are brands out there that are making millions of money, but don’t even care to actually have a selection [00:32:20] of foundations and products that actually service everybody. And it’s still happening [00:32:25] to this day. And I think that’s where it’s very, very important. For example, I even feel like we have too much product [00:32:30] now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean, the number of the.

Adeola Gboyega: Number of things that we have, it’s just overwhelming. [00:32:35] And that’s with us being in the industry and being experts and actually knowing what we’re doing. Imagine everyday consumer [00:32:40] like going into places like Sephora. Where do they even start? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you could ask the same question about clothes, [00:32:45] bags, absolutely. All of those things. Yeah, it’s I think, you.

Rhona Eskander: Know, you the [00:32:50] community piece I think is such an important thing. And I [00:32:55] sometimes feel like my messaging, for example, on Instagram is a little bit confused because [00:33:00] I don’t actually think I’ve built up a strong enough community. What I have been lucky is [00:33:05] to have very strong, incredible women behind me that helped me build a [00:33:10] certain community. You know, Melissa’s wardrobe, beauty in the blog ush. You, [00:33:15] you know, and I was really lucky. And what I loved about that community was as they [00:33:20] represented automatically diversity, authenticity and the clients that I got [00:33:25] off the back of that. And it was funny because there’s a lot of people that follow basically all of you, for, if that makes sense, [00:33:30] that then come to me like, oh, I saw your Melissa and then I saw you in Adeola, or I saw you on YouTube, or I saw you on Michelle’s, you know? And [00:33:35] so it’s kind of like, you know, that the same sort of people actually follow you guys. And so [00:33:40] I’ve been able to have that teeth is a funny one, right? Because I think it’s one of [00:33:45] the only medical professionals where it’s function and beauty. And if you think about it like [00:33:50] medicine, dentistry. Yeah, dentistry. Medicine is actually quite divisive in a way, because you’ve [00:33:55] got the aesthetic industry and then you’ve got the dentist that like save the heart and the brain and they’re like, they would never [00:34:00] do aesthetics, you know? And it’s very divisive. Whereas in dentistry, you literally [00:34:05] can’t have pretty looking teeth without having healthy, functional teeth. It’s impossible. If your gums are bad, the aesthetics [00:34:10] will fail. If you’ve got tooth decay, the aesthetics will fail. Does that make sense? It’s one of the only places [00:34:15] where you’ve got to kind of, like, marry both of them up and it’s accepted. Yeah, exactly. [00:34:20] But I also think that there.

Payman Langroudi: Is on this product’s question. Yeah. So let’s say [00:34:25] I like I like what’s that drunk elephant love drunk.

[TRANSITION]: I love that you [00:34:30] know that as well. Love it. Yeah I like.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one. The [00:34:35] ordinary.

[TRANSITION]: Okay. Yes.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t I really don’t like it for clinical for me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, I [00:34:40] don’t know anything about them. Yeah, but these are, these are. I’m just throwing out urban decay. Yeah, [00:34:45] yeah. Now.

[TRANSITION]: If if me and you.

Payman Langroudi: If me and you want to make a new toothpaste [00:34:50] brand. Yeah. Which of those brands do we copy? Copy [00:34:55] in inverted commas. Yeah, I can. So what’s your favourite skincare brand and what would that toothpaste [00:35:00] look like?

Rhona Eskander: No no no. But listen, when we were.

[TRANSITION]: Skincare.

Rhona Eskander: When we were designing Parler, I’m going [00:35:05] to tell you now, when we were designing Parler, immediately, we didn’t want to be like the big conglomerates. [00:35:10] And immediately there were three brands. Me, Simon and Ardeche were copied, like, not copied, [00:35:15] but were inspired by Aesop. Yeah. Le Labo maybe it was ordinary, but you see, [00:35:20] that was a feel of.

[TRANSITION]: Like trusted.

Rhona Eskander: Clinical and beauty because you [00:35:25] don’t want to be too beauty. Yeah. The gold toothpaste. Come on. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s a bit like. Does a dentist [00:35:30] approve of this? Yeah. Whereas you need to speak. And also there is something I’m going to put it out there, guys, [00:35:35] about Scandinavian Swiss brands that you trust. I just trust everything Scandinavian, Swiss, [00:35:40] those things like. And so again Aesop. I know Le Labo is French, but you know like you get that sense of like [00:35:45] I trust them. I trust the Scandi.

[TRANSITION]: So you went you.

Payman Langroudi: Went that route.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah we went Aesop’s Australian. [00:35:50] Is it? Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. But you know what I mean.

Adeola Gboyega: Who [00:35:55] am.

[TRANSITION]: I? Who do.

Payman Langroudi: I mean? I know you’ve worked for, but. But for instance, Pat.

[TRANSITION]: Mcgrath, you said. Yeah. [00:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: What a new ones that you’re interested in. And tell me some of the legacy ones that you like, as.

Adeola Gboyega: In like [00:36:05] makeup or skincare?

Payman Langroudi: Both. I’m talking about brand values rather than products.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Adeola Gboyega: So there’s one brand [00:36:10] that I absolutely love. So she’s a black founder. Her name is called Danessa Myricks. I love her because [00:36:15] she again is very good at storytelling and her products are just so innovative. [00:36:20] So she’s always thinking, how can I offer solutions to people’s [00:36:25] everyday woes? And I think if you’re always working from that kind of like stance point, you’re never going [00:36:30] to fail.

[TRANSITION]: Because technically.

Adeola Gboyega: Yes, I.

[TRANSITION]: Think so. Is that no.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you mean? Solutions.

[TRANSITION]: Technical solutions? Yeah. [00:36:35]

Adeola Gboyega: Technical solutions. But also as well, you know, if she knows, for example, people are always worried about oily skin. [00:36:40] She’s going to create a product that’s going to help with that. And I think that’s very important because if you’re just doing [00:36:45] it because you’re going to hop on a trend, which I think a lot of brands are doing now. Yeah, there’s always going to be other brands that are going to do [00:36:50] that. But if you’re making really good sort of like theoretical products that actually work. The formulations [00:36:55] are good and they’re servicing the concerns that people have. You’re always going to do well. [00:37:00] But also I just love that she is very passionate about what she does and she still does Instagram [00:37:05] lives. Like, for example, her brand is so successful that she could literally be like, it can run its course, it’s going to do well and I don’t [00:37:10] need to be here. And that’s why I admire people like yourselves, because, you know, you you don’t have to be as [00:37:15] far as front facing as you are, but you do it because you’re passionate about it. Like, I love that you still [00:37:20] do TikToks. You still do videos. Like not everybody has to do that, but I think it’s very important.

Payman Langroudi: Skincare. The one [00:37:25] I’ve noticed. Trinny. Trinny London. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Done very well.

Adeola Gboyega: She’s done really well. But again, it’s because people [00:37:30] buy into her. Yeah. People buying her.

[TRANSITION]: Community.

Adeola Gboyega: Secondary. You know, they buy into who Trinny [00:37:35] is first and then they buy into the products afterwards. And I think when you’re leading from that kind of stance point, [00:37:40] you’re always going to do well.

Rhona Eskander: I want to challenge you on that, though, because I’ve seen a lot of content creators [00:37:45] 1 million, 2 million, 3 million followers. They bring a product out and it flops. So if they’ve bought into the person, [00:37:50] why has the product flopped again?

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s difficult.

Adeola Gboyega: It’s difficult, but also as well, it’s the lack of [00:37:55] community. Just because you’ve got numbers doesn’t mean that you’re engaging with your community, doesn’t mean that you’re servicing [00:38:00] them. For example, if you’re not doing things like Instagram Lives or you’re not actually actively speaking on stories, [00:38:05] how are you going to do well? Case in point, everyone’s.

Payman Langroudi: Examples aren’t there.

[TRANSITION]: There’s examples [00:38:10] on Melissa’s wardrobe.

Adeola Gboyega: She’s in a massive you know, she’s an incredible [00:38:15] person that I really look up to. But also I really absolutely adore because she’s a really good example of somebody [00:38:20] that is just so authentic and genuine, but has a real conversation with you on her stories. [00:38:25] You know, go on her page. It’s very beautiful, it’s very aesthetic. But at the end of the day, she will literally [00:38:30] be at home, hair tied up in a bun and having a conversation with you as if she’s having [00:38:35] a face time and you know she’s talking to you about real life things. You know, when she shared her story recently about [00:38:40] the end of her? Yeah. It’s real. Everybody’s going through all of those things. Doesn’t matter how successful you are, everyone’s [00:38:45] going through real life stuff. That is what people are buying into.

Payman Langroudi: There are examples where it’s worked, [00:38:50] for sure. The other way around. Right? So Glossier was a blog before it was a product. Huda [00:38:55] was a blog before it was a product. The Kardashian stuff like. There are examples [00:39:00] where community came first and product second.

Rhona Eskander: I think now it’s a little bit more difficult. [00:39:05] I was actually listening. I don’t know if any of you had, um, have listened to the podcast date yourself. Instead, [00:39:10] there’s a content creator called Liz Date yourself instead. Okay, so it’s [00:39:15] this. It’s this content creator called Liz. Um, and I really like her because I listen to all the self-help [00:39:20] stuff, and she does a lot about, like, the kind of, like, self-love and self-care and everything like that. And [00:39:25] she was talking about how and she’s created a very successful podcast, and she was saying that when she first started the podcast [00:39:30] industry, that people she saw people that had like 7,000,008 [00:39:35] followers and their podcasts flopped because she was saying, like, you can’t just assume because you’ve got a number on one [00:39:40] platform, it translates into another. And it’s completely different on like a podcast platform. [00:39:45] And I think, yeah, I think that that is also a really interesting [00:39:50] point. Being real and being authentic, I think is really important. You two.

Payman Langroudi: You two, [00:39:55] as women, tell me, what is the mental health side of [00:40:00] looking beautiful? Making yourself pretty. Like, is that a thing?

Rhona Eskander: I think so, [00:40:05] for sure. Yeah. I don’t really get dressed up like, look, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: You don’t get dressed up, and [00:40:10] I. Listen, you don’t get dressed up, my love.

Rhona Eskander: You haven’t let me finish my sentence. I don’t get dressed up for men, per [00:40:15] se. Because, because because. Yeah, but like, women love dressing up for women all the time. Obviously. Because we [00:40:20] notice things like. Did you notice my nails today? No, but she did. Yeah, exactly. [00:40:25] So, so basically, like, we noticed those little things about each other. [00:40:30] So I think that looking good is a form of self-care in a [00:40:35] way where you think like, you get up, you do like a routine. I find it, like, quite meditative.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:40:40] again, how come that doesn’t transfer into Dental? Like, what do you mean? Like, why can’t you get like a, like a [00:40:45] water flosser with your favourite mouthwash in it and feel like you’ve looked after yourself. [00:40:50] I do.

[TRANSITION]: I love doing my oral hygiene routine.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a dentist?

[TRANSITION]: No she does.

Rhona Eskander: My patients love it [00:40:55] now.

[TRANSITION]: I love it. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: You see, a self-care, like in the same way. Absolutely.

[TRANSITION]: How interesting. It’s [00:41:00] changing. I love that I treat.

Rhona Eskander: I treat a lot of the beauty influencers, and they [00:41:05] will now treat their teeth care as their skincare routine. They are now. They’re invested in coming [00:41:10] in every three months for airflow.

Payman Langroudi: Guided biofilm, whatever. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: She goes and sees.

[TRANSITION]: Anna for airflow [00:41:15] all the time and then, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Flossing, brushing. She might text me, being like, oh, [00:41:20] did a tiny bit of bonding come out with my flossing, you know, and I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Like, because, you know, from the.

Payman Langroudi: From the prevention [00:41:25] side. Yeah. Like, you know, dentists job is to, you know, save teeth right from the prevention [00:41:30] message just isn’t sexy. But if it was a self-care message.

[TRANSITION]: But I’ve always said that. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: No, but in the in the brushing in the in the cleaning side.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah I think it’s coming [00:41:40] to the forefront now. Yeah. But so much more.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know if you saw we have a colleague of ours, Doctor Victoria. She was just [00:41:45] on Stephen Bartlett’s podcast talking about the oral microbiome. And, you know, Payman [00:41:50] said, like it was such a strong message because obviously with Stephen Bartlett’s platform, um, [00:41:55] now people are going to brush their teeth. Like how many millions of people are now going to brush their teeth? Like, that’s so amazing [00:42:00] because we can all get the message through to people. Even our own patients brush twice a day, every day. So [00:42:05] she was.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about.

[TRANSITION]: Diabetes, dementia, fertility, all those. But at the.

Rhona Eskander: End of the day, people are motivated [00:42:10] by selfish factors. Let’s be honest, because if they spend thousands of pounds on their bonding or veneers and [00:42:15] then you tell them they don’t brush their teeth, it’s all going to fail. They’re going to brush. Yeah. If people are told that [00:42:20] they’re infertile and that their saliva could have something to do with it, they’re going to brush. You see, people [00:42:25] have to see like feel something tangible.

Payman Langroudi: The Periodontists weren’t very happy with all of that, right?

[TRANSITION]: So we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Specialists [00:42:30] who say.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: The worst thing about being in the beauty industry. [00:42:35]

Adeola Gboyega: Um, comparison. I think it’s very important to have that conversation [00:42:40] because I think, you know, when you’re actively working in the industry, [00:42:45] especially with me being more of a content creator. Now, part of my job is to obviously like, [00:42:50] you know, be on trend and see what’s going on. But then that means that you’re consuming more social media, and then obviously you’re seeing [00:42:55] what other people are doing and you’re comparing yourself. And for someone like myself that, you know, the [00:43:00] average person might look at that and be like, oh, I’m happy within my life. But then I just dissect it and like, go into it even [00:43:05] more and then start thinking about it and overthinking. That’s when it can become very challenging.

Payman Langroudi: And also compare [00:43:10] yourself with other content creators. Is that.

Adeola Gboyega: Other content.

[TRANSITION]: Creators? Naturally. Is that what you mean? [00:43:15] Yeah, absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: Of course. Because also, like if you see someone that’s successful.

[TRANSITION]: On TikTok, [00:43:20] you have to.

Rhona Eskander: Understand what they’re doing right. And then naturally. But also like, I just hate being stuck [00:43:25] to my screen. That’s why I didn’t really when I started YouTube. And now I put the podcasts [00:43:30] on there. Youtube is a full time job, like, I don’t want to be stuck. Even like if you have an editor, you’ve got to [00:43:35] check stuff. They’ve got to check these podcasts. And like, I don’t want to be stuck forever to [00:43:40] your phone Like you’re naturally going to just be more unhappy.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. And it’s a constant rat race that you feel [00:43:45] like if I don’t post for a certain amount of days, I then start feeling a lot of anxiety about, okay, I need [00:43:50] to post now, but then what do I post? And have I missed out on certain things? So yeah, it’s just [00:43:55] a constant thing. There’s so many different things that I can speak about, but comparison would be one of the biggest ones. Um, [00:44:00] and also just feeling like you’re not living in the moment because everything can be like an Instagram Instagrammable [00:44:05] moment. Absolutely. So you’re always thinking, oh, I need to take a picture of this, or I need to do that. And [00:44:10] some days I just don’t want to be on my phone. And it’s really difficult also as well. You know, you have [00:44:15] your social media friends and your community in that sense, but you’ve also got to realise that you have [00:44:20] your real life friends, like my childhood friends, my family, and a lot of them haven’t been on social media or are [00:44:25] not on social media by choice. And so I then have to realise that how [00:44:30] I do things is not how they do things. For example, if I’m taking pictures of food, they might not want to take pictures [00:44:35] of food or I can’t ask them always to like take my content and take pictures of me because they don’t want to. [00:44:40] They just want to, like, have a good meal and enjoy themselves.

Rhona Eskander: But it is annoying. Like, you know, sometimes when you’re with someone [00:44:45] and they want to take 700 photos, you know, before they’re happy. I’m actually not one of those people. She’ll [00:44:50] vouch for me.

[TRANSITION]: You’re not at all. But. Yeah. Do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean creators want to get it perfect. [00:44:55]

[TRANSITION]: Before they put it?

Rhona Eskander: Like even my makeup artist, Ahmed Cookie. You’re going to meet him one day.

[TRANSITION]: Like him?

Rhona Eskander: Like, [00:45:00] sometimes it’s like 700 photos before we get the right shots. Do you see what I mean? And I’m just like. [00:45:05] I’m like, I want to enjoy the dinner.

[TRANSITION]: Or the moment.

Rhona Eskander: Or walk. You know what I mean? Or like whatever. So sometimes [00:45:10] it becomes like a little bit more difficult. And I think that that’s the only thing that I’m worried about [00:45:15] because I think, like, the more that we’re stuck to our screens, the more we’re entering this [00:45:20] like Black Mirror. Oh, yeah. Um, vortex that we’re not going to be able to get out of.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:45:25] I bet.

Payman Langroudi: This this toxicity and ego.

Adeola Gboyega: All the time. But then I feel like that’s with every, [00:45:30] like, workplace. I always like I also look at social media as my job. You know, the same way that you would [00:45:35] go to a corporate job and there’s going to be toxic people and there’s going to be, you know, all that kind of stuff. It’s the same thing. [00:45:40] You know, there’s people that you meet in the industry and then you’re acquaintances. You have to realise that a lot of them are [00:45:45] not your friends. Play the game. Yeah, 100%. You have to go in there and realise that these are not my real friends. [00:45:50] My real friends are the people that will check in on me. And, you know, we’ll have like open conversations, [00:45:55] not the conversations that you have that are surface level when you go to these events, you know, and it’s the same with the corporate [00:46:00] world or any sort of like work place that you’re working in. It’s exactly the same.

Payman Langroudi: And do you think that [00:46:05] I always think with make up artists, there’s this sort of feeling that you’re on the edge of [00:46:10] the edge of the famous people and, you know, like because you must meet so many [00:46:15] famous people, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Do you get that? Not so much.

Adeola Gboyega: Now, because I feel like my bread and butter and where I make the [00:46:20] majority of my income is content creation. And actually, that can be quite lonely because you’re working for yourself and by [00:46:25] yourself and you’re working at home. Um, but then you don’t get fazed by that, because when you’re [00:46:30] going into, you know, the industry. As a makeup artist, before social media, the makeup [00:46:35] artist was always behind the scenes. You were never in front of the camera. It’s different now because now you can kind of [00:46:40] forge a really great career by being camera facing and being at the forefront. Um, but before, [00:46:45] you know, you dressed in all black. You were there to be, you know, you weren’t there to be seen. [00:46:50] You were not there to be heard. You were there to do your job. Yeah. You might be privy to conversations and [00:46:55] whole point of you being asked back and actually to have those relationships, because no matter what you saw or [00:47:00] what you heard, it never goes past that room. So I’ve been privy to a lot of things, but again, [00:47:05] it was never part of my job to kind of be enamoured by the celebrity. No one that actually goes into [00:47:10] being a makeup artist is about it because of the celebrity, because you work bloody [00:47:15] hard and half of the time you don’t even get to see or or like kind of reap the benefits of all those things until [00:47:20] much later on in life.

Rhona Eskander: Question for you. Do you agree with [00:47:25] content creators that work in the beauty industry [00:47:30] being very vocal about the experiences that they’ve had with [00:47:35] clients or brands in a way that might be deemed as derogatory. [00:47:40]

Adeola Gboyega: Yes and no. Um, I think if it’s going to be [00:47:45] an opportunity for you to voice something that might incite change, then yes, but [00:47:50] you have to be very mindful that when you then do that, you can’t then turn back. There’s been loads of experiences [00:47:55] that I’ve had where I could have spoken up about it and said something, but then I also feel once [00:48:00] I kind of divulge that information and share it, can I then go back, for example, that’s [00:48:05] going to ruin that relationship with me and that person. What does that have a knock on effect in terms of like [00:48:10] brand partnerships that I might have, because a brand might look at that and think, well, she’s spoken about a brand experience [00:48:15] that she’s had with that one person.

[TRANSITION]: She’s risky.

Adeola Gboyega: She’s a risky person to work with. I’m always [00:48:20] thinking about my reputation because I always feel that reputation is that thing that’s always on that [00:48:25] kind of knife edge, whereby any little thing can happen and it can just change 100%. [00:48:30] And there’s this real cancel culture. That’s very scary at the moment, whereby something could [00:48:35] happen to someone and it could just be like a minor mistake and people can just run with it and [00:48:40] that can be someone’s career over in a flash. It’s scary.

Rhona Eskander: So I’ve got a question for both of you. [00:48:45] You might not know this. You will definitely know this because you’re on TikTok. Someone like Bonnie Blue, who’s [00:48:50] had a lot of press about Bonnie Blue.

[TRANSITION]: No, see, I knew he wouldn’t know. I’m on TikTok.

Payman Langroudi: Hours every day, [00:48:55] though.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not with.

Rhona Eskander: Bonnie. Blue is a content creator who’s 25 [00:49:00] years old. She became very famous. She earned £600,000 [00:49:05] a month month. She started off in OnlyFans and she decided [00:49:10] to be very creative with her content, as she puts it, by going out on [00:49:15] freshers week and sleeping with as many people.

[TRANSITION]: As possible and.

Rhona Eskander: Like her parents are involved [00:49:20] and she would say that she’s empowered and that the women that are judging her are the Karens [00:49:25] at home. I don’t know if you saw the interview with Ashley James and she basically says that [00:49:30] she is providing an educational source for young boys, [00:49:35] girls, etc. and obviously Ashley made the point. But how is it educating? You know, you’re actually [00:49:40] perpetuating this belief that, you know, women are there for sex, etc.. So [00:49:45] my question for you is this. And I think about this because now there’s some [00:49:50] other girls that are also following her. They’re like 22. They’re like, I love to be sexually [00:49:55] active. If I can make money from it, then great.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important [00:50:00] that someone, a woman, should be able to say, I like to be sexually active.

[TRANSITION]: Correct. But do [00:50:05] you really think that for that question to you, is.

Rhona Eskander: This both of you, do you really think [00:50:10] that content creation has got so far that people are doing the craziest, wackiest thing? Or do you [00:50:15] really believe that we’re sleeping with 100 people a day, which is what they want? One [00:50:20] of them wanted to do not Bonnie Blue, the other girl, Lily Phillips. That is truly making [00:50:25] her happy.

Payman Langroudi: No. Look, man, it’s art.

Rhona Eskander: Is it? Yeah. Like, [00:50:30] have we become a generation of, like, where we’re living in this black, mirrored dystopian [00:50:35] reality? No.

[TRANSITION]: It’s true. Well, the answer to that is yes. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: That people don’t care [00:50:40] about ethics, morals and value because they’re like, do you know what? Like, there’s other girls, for example, in [00:50:45] OnlyFans. I need to stand out. So I’m going to do something completely shocking and different.

[TRANSITION]: But listen.

Payman Langroudi: You say ethics [00:50:50] and morals. Yeah. If she was going to campuses and taking people on a run. Yeah. [00:50:55] That would somehow be okay. But because.

[TRANSITION]: She’s going running.

Rhona Eskander: And taking people’s virginities are somewhat [00:51:00] different.

Payman Langroudi: But but you know that you’re reinforcing that we can’t talk about sex, [00:51:05] and we can’t. Not by saying that. By making that an ethical question. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s not that [00:51:10] because like you said.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not an ethical.

[TRANSITION]: Question. It’s not.

Rhona Eskander: About that. Because the point is, is that she knows, [00:51:15] like with anyone, that this goes for men and women. Like you’re 18, you’re not [00:51:20] that developed maturity wise. You’re just not pay.

[TRANSITION]: This goes for men and women. You go to a [00:51:25] bar for me, but then go to a when you’re a 26 year old.

Rhona Eskander: You are far more developed. So to me, [00:51:30] whichever way it works, you know, there is a degree of vulnerability and responsibility [00:51:35] that comes with dealing with 18 year olds. That’s my view. And that’s that is an [00:51:40] ethical question. You’re right, you’re right. I’m an 18 year old.

[TRANSITION]: Not so much.

Payman Langroudi: You’re writing so much as if you said [00:51:45] 16 year old, which would still be legal. Yeah, I would have a problem with it. So there is a line. Yeah, there [00:51:50] is, of course, 16 and.

Rhona Eskander: 18 is a line. Did you.

[TRANSITION]: Hear that? Yeah, exactly. So you heard it from her. [00:51:55] You are wild. I know I’m making your point for you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m making your point for you. Yeah. If it was 16 year [00:52:00] olds, I would have a problem. But, you know, there is a line, right? I just think it’s art, man.

Rhona Eskander: If you want to go and learn from her [00:52:05] because it’s art.

[TRANSITION]: I support.

Rhona Eskander: You in your decision.

[TRANSITION]: Okay? And we.

Rhona Eskander: Can move [00:52:10] on from that.

[TRANSITION]: Conversation.

Rhona Eskander: So what is [00:52:15] your vision for the future? Adeola.

Adeola Gboyega: God, this is a really good question. I’ve [00:52:20] been thinking about potentially bringing up my own range of product. Um, I [00:52:25] mean, like, early stages, like, you know, I have a mentor now that’s helping me kind of, like, have a discussion [00:52:30] about it. Um, you know, I want to have someone to consult with me because I think it’s very important. [00:52:35] One of the things that I think is very important in terms of success is to speak to somebody that’s already done what you’re trying to do. [00:52:40] Um, because obviously everyone’s made mistakes, and I know that if I was to go in there blind and try [00:52:45] and do it myself, I’m not going to make as much impact as if I spoke to someone that’s already launched a [00:52:50] brand or somebody that’s worked in that industry. Um, for so long, I was kind of like, does anyone [00:52:55] want more product? But then I also think, again, people buy into me. People are always asking me, what’s [00:53:00] the best mascara? What’s the best skincare product? So even with the fact that we have so much choice, [00:53:05] people still want to speak to you individually because they trust you.

Rhona Eskander: It’s unbelievable because some [00:53:10] people still message me saying, what’s the best, what’s the best? And I’m like, I’m constantly talking.

[TRANSITION]: About stuff.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:53:15] tagging stuff like do a little bit of like clicking, you know what I mean?

[TRANSITION]: Like just kind of.

Payman Langroudi: This is kind [00:53:20] of why you started Paula though.

Rhona Eskander: Her How? What? Why? People always ask. Yeah. For sure. Like, people [00:53:25] were always asking us. And then, you know, when you look into the brands that pay you or like, want to do, you start looking [00:53:30] into them and you’re like, what are their ethics? What are their values? What are their ingredients? And then we recognise that we could offer something [00:53:35] like better. I mean, I bought into used enlightened. No.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. I had it when [00:53:40] I was having my teeth done. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: This is the best Payman brand.

Rhona Eskander: So I [00:53:45] bought into enlightened as a brand because for me, like, there was another competitor on the [00:53:50] market that really tried to route me into working with them and, like, just didn’t feel aligned to [00:53:55] it. Whereas, like, enlightened isn’t your standard whitening because the big thing about it is it’s much more [00:54:00] expensive. It really is, but it just aligned with me. Whereas like the cheap brands [00:54:05] just I just felt like it. I had a problem with even like telling patients like there’s this [00:54:10] option because and I do still do that because I’m like, look, there is the cheaper option. There isn’t. Listen to me, enlightened is the best because [00:54:15] I will give them that option. But I still struggle because there’s this like lack of alignment. You know what I mean? And [00:54:20] for me, it’s it’s not just about the I know how much Payman like, puts into the branding [00:54:25] and the ingredients and things like that. And that’s something that I will always I buy into that stuff [00:54:30] with everything, with the, the food that I put in my body with, like everything that I do. So [00:54:35] I think.

Payman Langroudi: For you doing your own brand. Yeah. The I mean, you know, I [00:54:40] would say beware. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I would say, don’t [00:54:45] even think about whether it’s worked or not for five years. Yeah, yeah. Like [00:54:50] if it works in year six, that’s still a massive success. Yeah. Yeah. Now, hey, [00:54:55] it might happen in the first year and go berserk. Yeah. Um, and I would say, you know, have [00:55:00] a financial partner. Yeah. Yeah. Like, because if it’s a six year project. Yeah. Bring [00:55:05] in someone who understands. Unless you understand how to raise money and all that. No.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Adeola Gboyega: This [00:55:10] is why it’s really good to have, like you said, like, speak to someone that knows. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:55:15] would look at incubators. You know? You know what they are.

[TRANSITION]: No. What are they?

Payman Langroudi: So you go with your business plan to this, to [00:55:20] this incubator, and then they they either fit you up with the right people and then and [00:55:25] then show you the process right, and tell you whether they think it’s a good idea or not, take [00:55:30] you through the first few bits and get you into the sort of the whole thing of professionalising. [00:55:35]

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I would also say one thing, like one thing that’s really important. I wondered if you ever did that. But I do [00:55:40] think a mentor is invaluable. And I’ve had several mentors and for me that [00:55:45] is I think, like you said, I really you know, my biggest bugbear is [00:55:50] people that give you advice that haven’t even done what you want to do or have achieved anything. [00:55:55] I know it sounds really weird, but someone, for example, that’s like never had a successful relationship. Let’s [00:56:00] just give that as an example and they start giving you relationship advice. I’m like, hun, why? Why would I want [00:56:05] that? Because I for me, like mentors for example, are someone that have done something. I’m not saying necessarily like you [00:56:10] don’t necessarily have had to been a huge success, but for me the value lies [00:56:15] is that they’ve like walked the walk walked before they can talk the talk, you know. So I wanted to start [00:56:20] my own product, which we did do. I’d be happy to chat to you pay because I know that you’ve done that and you’ve [00:56:25] walked down that line. I’m not going to talk to like some random dentist that’s never done it. That is my personal [00:56:30] view. That is what I think is really important about mentors. When I wanted to open up Chelsea Dental [00:56:35] Clinic, I looked at people that had built practices that I aspired to have or had built brands [00:56:40] that I aspired to have. Those were the ones I looked up to, not the kind of average person that was [00:56:45] next to me. You might disagree with me because I can see there being like, I’m going to just disagree. But she [00:56:50] agrees, and I think there’s something there is something. There is something that.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:56:55] kind of agree. I kind.

[TRANSITION]: Of agree, you know, and I think.

Rhona Eskander: That that’s but that’s why you listen to a podcast like [00:57:00] Secret Leaders because you learn from those entrepreneurs, you know, like, I think there is something to have [00:57:05] been said.

Payman Langroudi: And did you see the story of Drunk Elephant? No. There’s a brilliant how I, how I [00:57:10] built this. Yeah. Where he goes and interviews Tiffany.

Adeola Gboyega: The lady that [00:57:15] kind of founded Texas girl.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant story.

[TRANSITION]: You know how I built this?

Payman Langroudi: The podcast. [00:57:20]

Adeola Gboyega: Okay.

[TRANSITION]: So check it out.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Adeola Gboyega: I love stuff like that. But it’s to your point, I [00:57:25] think it’s very important to hear and speak people’s stories, because I think that’s how you learn. [00:57:30] Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: I think you’re amazing. How is [00:57:35] your mental health now?

Adeola Gboyega: It’s good. It’s getting better. I think it’s an ongoing thing. Um, [00:57:40] I think for me, the biggest thing that I have to learn to do is not [00:57:45] feel like when things don’t work out, it’s a massive failure. So I catastrophize [00:57:50] everything, like a little thing will go wrong and I will literally just obsess over it [00:57:55] and literally just go into this hole. Um, but there’s a really good app, actually. Can I tell [00:58:00] you something?

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Rhona Eskander: One of my favourite sayings that I keep telling myself now, rejection [00:58:05] is redirection. That’s all it is. When something doesn’t work out, another door will [00:58:10] open. And I really love that. Someone said that to me and I wrote it out again and again. Confusion is clarity. [00:58:15] Rejection is redirection. So I really love that. You know, you think that when one [00:58:20] door closes or something doesn’t work out, it just means that you’re being redirected into something else that’s going to be more in alignment [00:58:25] with you.

Adeola Gboyega: It’s so true, and I totally agree with that. Um, so yeah, I just [00:58:30] think I’m always trying to kind of look at tools that will really, really help me. Um, there’s a lady on [00:58:35] Instagram that I follow that basically shared something. It’s called untold. It’s [00:58:40] an app where basically you speak into it and it’s like a journaling app, but then it gives you [00:58:45] like different ways that you can kind of or different perspectives of how you can like, deal with it. [00:58:50] So it would be like a cognitive thing and then it would be like exercises. And that’s really helped me because sometimes in [00:58:55] the moment you might think, oh my God, woe is me, but it just takes someone to give you a different perspective to kind of change [00:59:00] your mindset at that moment in time.

Rhona Eskander: Do you know what else you can do? You can actually tell ChatGPT your problem [00:59:05] and.

[TRANSITION]: Ask it for.

Rhona Eskander: Advice.

[TRANSITION]: I love and it.

Rhona Eskander: Actually will give you like a bit of a nuanced [00:59:10] like.

[TRANSITION]: View on it all. What are your.

Adeola Gboyega: Thoughts on ChatGPT? I always love to hear what people think about [00:59:15] it.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Great. I use it a lot because with my ADHD brain, I work so [00:59:20] quickly, full of spelling mistakes, full of like like in like I do [00:59:25] ten things at a time. So I use ChatGPT actually for like everything. So now even with [00:59:30] like an email, I’ll like do a voice note to ChatGPT and be like, write Payman and email [00:59:35] to discuss like our next like podcast discussion. This is our guest. Have a look at her background. Here’s the [00:59:40] link of the background. Can you. And then it like does it all. And I’m really good at it. And my partner [00:59:45] who works in finance, his boss is and he was like like if people know how to use AI [00:59:50] it can be incredibly successful. And also I think we can’t stop it. The only thing that I think will be interesting [00:59:55] to see is like from an educational point of view, like we all had to do our own research, right, to like create an [01:00:00] essay or whatever. And obviously people now are going to be using ChatGPT like, how are the universities and schools [01:00:05] going to stop it?

[TRANSITION]: Do you know from your.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I find it ridiculous. Like in my in my kids school they’ve banned it. [01:00:10]

[TRANSITION]: But you should just work with it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s total madness. I’m like, they should. They should make it compulsory rather [01:00:15] than banning it like.

[TRANSITION]: But then how would they.

Adeola Gboyega: Know that they’ve used.

[TRANSITION]: It like.

Payman Langroudi: They run it through a filter. But then. But [01:00:20] then kids are clever enough. Like there’s another, there’s another filter called humanise.

Adeola Gboyega: I just [01:00:25] to kind of make it sound a bit.

Payman Langroudi: I encourage my kids to use it. Yeah, but the only danger of [01:00:30] it outside of end of the world type dangers here is that if it has a political stance [01:00:35] and that’s been an issue. Right. Where, you know, Gemini was wasn’t [01:00:40] like was a bit very, very left leaning, very woke like, um, thing [01:00:45] and you know, that’s Google’s ChatGPT version. Um, and that question of because [01:00:50] now, now this will, this will literally become our government. Let’s [01:00:55] face it. You know, in the end, you know, the politicians will be using it to and if it’s [01:01:00] nuanced, if it’s racist, if it’s whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. If it’s two right wing. Two [01:01:05] left wing. Yeah. And and how are they programming that and who owns that? And is [01:01:10] is there like regulation about to come in. That’s going to mean it has to say a certain thing. [01:01:15] And I think that would be a real shame if that happens. You know, in the same way as social media has been regulated. Um, [01:01:20] until Elon came along.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But X has gone down since Elon came along, so I’m not. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:01:25] still the regulation piece. Yeah. Like, you know they did that thing the Twitter files. Yeah. And it was like the [01:01:30] government was constantly in at Twitter telling them what to do. Yeah I don’t want the government telling [01:01:35] I what to tell me. Let the technologists like make it. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:01:40]

Rhona Eskander: Right. I can tell you this conversation forever. I’m not going to let him go down at X [01:01:45] and Twitter hole.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Rhona Eskander: And Elon and Trump like debate. That’s going to be another time. But [01:01:50] thank you so much for joining us. I want to ask you one final question before [01:01:55] we let you go. If there was something that you could tell your younger self, knowing what you know now, [01:02:00] what would you tell her?

Adeola Gboyega: Oh, I would say that your [01:02:05] value doesn’t lie in what you feel like you can offer, like you’re valuable as you are. [01:02:10] Because I think for so long I was always and I still struggle with it to this day. I always feel like, oh, [01:02:15] what can I offer people to feel like I’m valuable, but I’m actually having to learn that I am of value as [01:02:20] I am. And that’s.

[TRANSITION]: Perfect. You are.

Rhona Eskander: You’re amazing.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for this [01:02:25] as well. Go on. Your favourite day.

Adeola Gboyega: My favourite.

[TRANSITION]: Day. Describe [01:02:30] your favourite day.

Payman Langroudi: No no no. Like, what was.

[TRANSITION]: Your favourite day? Oh, what was my favourite day? What comes to.

Payman Langroudi: Mind? [01:02:35] What happened that day?

Adeola Gboyega: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Best day of your life. And you’re [01:02:40] not allowed to say weddings, kids. None of that.

Adeola Gboyega: I have none of those.

[TRANSITION]: Not any of them yet.

Adeola Gboyega: So [01:02:45] I.

Rhona Eskander: Sitting on Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Leaders.

Rhona Eskander: No joking.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:02:50] in your 20s, man.

[TRANSITION]: Do you know.

Rhona Eskander: What are you living.

[TRANSITION]: In? No.

Payman Langroudi: Your favourite day.

[TRANSITION]: Was my 20s. [01:02:55]

Rhona Eskander: For sure. My 20s were terrible.

[TRANSITION]: Really?

Rhona Eskander: I was so insecure. And also. I [01:03:00] told.

[TRANSITION]: You this.

Payman Langroudi: What was your favourite day?

[TRANSITION]: Have a think.

Adeola Gboyega: I’m gonna say that I feel like I’m yet to experience it. And I’m [01:03:05] actually really excited.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: Because I don’t feel like I’ve had like a specific day that’s like, [01:03:10] oh my God, that stands out in my mind that I’m like, oh my gosh, that’s been the best day of my life. I feel like the [01:03:15] beauty that I feel like I’m living in the moment is that I’m yet to experience that. And that’s exciting.

Payman Langroudi: Today. [01:03:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Is that what you are?

Adeola Gboyega: Is that what you wanted.

[TRANSITION]: Me to say?

Adeola Gboyega: Today is the best day.

[TRANSITION]: Listen, what’s [01:03:25] your favourite day? Your favourite day?

Rhona Eskander: My life coach said to me that one of the most [01:03:30] important things is to find the extraordinary in the ordinary. And I know it sounds so cheesy, but [01:03:35] sometimes I really appreciate mundane things now. And it would be. And I don’t know if that’s [01:03:40] come with age. Like I’m like, oh my God, I’m actually a cougar now. I mean, I have to have kids first. But I was like, whatever. But [01:03:45] like the mundane, like I look at the trees or I’ll literally look at, you [01:03:50] know, something in nature. And I’m like, this is actually really extraordinary. I was [01:03:55] even watching, um, I was really ill last week, so I was watching about a puffer fish. [01:04:00] There was this incredible documentary about, like, the life of a puffer fish and watching how [01:04:05] nature like communicates with each other. I was like, this is unbelievable. So [01:04:10] having said that, some of my most beautiful moments have been in nature. I’m a little bit of a hippie, [01:04:15] so like me and my partner go scuba diving. We went to go watch the gorillas in Rwanda. [01:04:20] I went to go release the baby turtles into the sea in Guatemala.

Rhona Eskander: That was one of the most beautiful moments of my life, releasing [01:04:25] those baby turtles. And for me, those are some of the most beautiful moments. And, you know, people are like, what [01:04:30] about the day that you got married? And like, I have a problem with that, like you said, because I feel like that’s actually such a [01:04:35] curated day. The curation of that all is, is that although it’s a day of celebration, of love, so [01:04:40] much money and planning goes into it that it’s almost contradictory to be the most amazing day of your life, [01:04:45] because you’re doing it so that everyone looks at you. Do you know what I mean? So for me, that didn’t feel like [01:04:50] the natural, and I feel that maybe I might even have like a ten year anniversary [01:04:55] or something and do it like on a beach would feel more aligned, like in nature, not necessarily with anyone around, if that makes [01:05:00] sense. So for me, some of those moments are it will be in nature, I’d say, [01:05:05] where you really feel alive. You really.

[TRANSITION]: Feel like you’re one.

Payman Langroudi: Of our other guests said, like you could pick 6 or 7 things, [01:05:10] and if those 6 or 7 things happen in a day, then you’ve had a great day. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s [01:05:15] that’s that’s a really good way of doing an ice bath.

Rhona Eskander: Going for a.

[TRANSITION]: Long walk.

Rhona Eskander: Like experiencing animals. [01:05:20]

[TRANSITION]: You know what I mean?

Adeola Gboyega: I love that and I think also as well, I had that same conversation with my therapist at the time [01:05:25] because I think especially and I think you might agree with this, when you’re in the kind of mindset [01:05:30] that we have where you’re always chasing your next high of like, you know, what’s happening next, what’s happening next, [01:05:35] when those things don’t happen, you then take it very, very personally. So then you’re always on this constant sort of journey [01:05:40] of what’s going to happen next to the point that you don’t even actually, like, think about what you’ve achieved. Like just [01:05:45] last week, because you’re thinking, oh my gosh, what’s happening?

[TRANSITION]: How far you’ve come that I’m [01:05:50] the worst, that I’m going to be completely.

Rhona Eskander: Honest with you. Like celebrating the like official launch of [01:05:55] Chelsea Dental Clinic, even though we like really opened up in like June.

[TRANSITION]: July last night. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:06:00] was like, oh my God. Like I’ve been so hard on myself. I never took a moment to appreciate [01:06:05] what I built in that clinic. And Joseph and Charlie came. They were the owners that I [01:06:10] bought the clinic from.

[TRANSITION]: Joseph, and.

Rhona Eskander: They were like, what the hell have you done to this place? They couldn’t recognise it. And I was [01:06:15] like, this was literally a two surgery practice, you know, so basic. What is it [01:06:20] now? And it’s five surgeries. And like I came from the beginning, like, you know, when it was a [01:06:25] basic and I was like, I never took stock. I never took stock of what it was like. [01:06:30] Next. Hi. Next. Hi. So when the refurb was done, I was like, cool. Next.

Adeola Gboyega: Yeah. What’s next?

Rhona Eskander: Yesterday I was like, oh my God, I have [01:06:35] so many people in this room that love me, that care about me and have like, really, like shown me that they’re [01:06:40] proud of me. You know, I even had like, monarch tell me, you know, like big dentists that I’ve [01:06:45] known for years. And I was like, do you know what? I’ve actually achieved something that I can be proud of.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Adeola Gboyega: So and [01:06:50] that’s amazing.

[TRANSITION]: And on that note.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much for being part of that journey.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you so much. [01:06:55] Thank you for having me.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, [00:00:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Yohan Oduwole onto the podcast. [00:00:55] Yohan is a young dentist who is making real waves in [00:01:00] the profession. Um, she had an interesting story getting to dental school, which we’ll talk about [00:01:05] a bit of an influencer on the old social media wonderful YouTube channel, which [00:01:10] is where I saw an interview with Bill Dorfman, I think. Yes. Yeah. Um, years [00:01:15] ago, um, an avid listener to this pod, thank goodness. And, um, [00:01:20] someone who, you know, for me, just has positivity. Is that like, [00:01:25] you just you just scream positivity. You. And it’s a massive pleasure to have you.

Yewande Oduwole: Thank you so [00:01:30] much. It’s an honour to be on the podcast. I’ve actually been listening to it since I was a student, so [00:01:35] it feels weird to be on the other side. So thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a pleasure. [00:01:40] You want to tell me your backstory? Where [00:01:45] were you born? When did you first think dentistry? [00:01:50]

Yewande Oduwole: So I was born in Nigeria. Um, I came [00:01:55] here when I was about two, two years old.

Payman Langroudi: She don’t remember?

Yewande Oduwole: No, I don’t. I don’t [00:02:00] remember much of Nigeria, but I stayed there long enough to understand the language. So I’m very grateful [00:02:05] to have had my early, early days in this earth, in my [00:02:10] motherland, because I was able to learn Yoruba. And then I came here with my mum [00:02:15] and dad and like a lot of, you know, ethnic minorities just looking for [00:02:20] a better life here. Um, I just remember my mum doing a lot [00:02:25] of different jobs. So it was my dad moving from house to house. Um, [00:02:30] I even asked my mum, what does she remember about me growing up? What was I like as a child? [00:02:35] And she was just like she used to take me to work with her because she used to work as a carer. And [00:02:40] the old ladies would be like, oh, your daughter is so, so sweet, so positive. I’d want to like, help her. [00:02:45] I was probably like 4 or 5 at the time, but I’d want to do the work with her. [00:02:50] Um, so yeah, growing up, it, I just remember just seeing [00:02:55] my parents work really, really hard. And.

Payman Langroudi: Are you an only child?

Yewande Oduwole: No. [00:03:00] I’m the eldest of three. Oh, okay. So I am the eldest daughter. [00:03:05] If there are any old daughters listening to this podcast, you know what it’s like to be the eldest [00:03:10] daughter of the family. They call it eldest daughter syndrome. You have to look after everyone. [00:03:15] So I look after my two younger brothers growing up, and when my parents were out [00:03:20] working, it would be me. Um, so yeah, and growing [00:03:25] up as well, unfortunately, my parents didn’t stay together, so I had to, you know, witness [00:03:30] that journey of separation. So how old were you? Uh, probably about ten when [00:03:35] they split up.

Payman Langroudi: For that to happen.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. No, it was tough. I just I remember going to [00:03:40] school and seeing all these, you know, happy families and just thinking, oh, it would be so great to [00:03:45] to have that kind of dynamic. So yeah, childhood was [00:03:50] wasn’t the most.

Payman Langroudi: It was turbulent.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Turbulent. [00:03:55] I was watching a show on Netflix the other day, actually called made, and I really [00:04:00] resonated with it. Seeing her journey, looking after her child. And they said in that programme that [00:04:05] if a child doesn’t grow up with stability, that child is more likely [00:04:10] to have problems. And I definitely didn’t grow up with stability, so I probably would have [00:04:15] been a part of the statistics to grow up with problems. Stability [00:04:20] is really important.

Payman Langroudi: Gabor Mate talks about it. Have you looked at any of his work?

Yewande Oduwole: No. What does [00:04:25] he say?

Payman Langroudi: He’s sort of traces all of addiction back to childhood [00:04:30] trauma of some sort.

Yewande Oduwole: Well, it’s true, obviously, if you’re growing up in [00:04:35] that environment, you kind of maybe people tend to seek happiness and pleasure from [00:04:40] elsewhere, but.

Payman Langroudi: So then, so then, so then on that point is that is there any [00:04:45] sort of leftover from that childhood experience [00:04:50] now? Like for instance, do you look for stability more than you look for excitement [00:04:55] or whatever? Like what resonates if I say that what’s [00:05:00] left of that turbulence in your childhood today.

Yewande Oduwole: I feel the fact [00:05:05] that I’ve gone through that just makes me want stability for my future. Which is why [00:05:10] I think, obviously when we start talking about my career, I have been so determined to make sure that [00:05:15] I create a solid foundation for myself, because eventually [00:05:20] I want to have children and I don’t want them to have to go through what I witnessed, because [00:05:25] you kind of become a you’re a child, but you’re a parent at the same time. And [00:05:30] I think children should be allowed to be kids rather than thinking, oh, you [00:05:35] know, how are we going to afford this? Or what can I do to help my parents, etc. as [00:05:40] a child, thinking about all of that, obviously it gives you builds resilience in you. Yeah. Um, I’m [00:05:45] sure you have kids when you they’re probably in a fortunate situation where they don’t have [00:05:50] to kind of go through all of that. But I think going through that does build a certain level of resilience. [00:05:55] And you, you, because you’ve gone through it and you’ve seen it firsthand, you don’t want that [00:06:00] for your children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, my, my my wife was ill and [00:06:05] an ambulance came to our house to take her away recently, years ago. [00:06:10] Um, but I was talking to my daughter, and, uh, out of the blue, she. She said [00:06:15] that was the worst night of my life. And that was, like, maybe seven years ago, and. [00:06:20] And I had no idea. Yeah. You know, you had no idea that that. I mean, I knew she she was she was [00:06:25] around.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But, you know, at age 14, she’s telling me when [00:06:30] she was seven, that was the worst, worst day of her life. You know.

Yewande Oduwole: That just shows like that just.

Payman Langroudi: Goes to show. Yeah. [00:06:35] And often as a child, you sort of bury that stuff, and and or [00:06:40] you suffer in silence. Like. Like with my daughter’s example. Like she’d not mentioned it once before. [00:06:45] Not once. Um, and but then it did come out in that conversation for whatever reason, [00:06:50] you know? Wow.

Yewande Oduwole: It just shows how childhood trauma is. Really. You think you’ve forgotten about [00:06:55] it, but as an adult, it does play a role. And for your daughter to remember that, it just shows [00:07:00] the effect it has on her thinking. Is mom going to be okay? Is she. Was she okay? [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: She was okay.

Yewande Oduwole: Okay, good.

Payman Langroudi: So now, I mean, looking at you from [00:07:10] the sort of from a distance, right? Or. I mean, I think social media is a distance, isn’t it? [00:07:15] That you get this sort of highlight reel of someone’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Life 100%, and you look.

Payman Langroudi: So happy and so wonderful, and [00:07:20] you’re really making waves in the Dental world especially, you know, where you’re at so early on [00:07:25] in the journey. What are you struggling with?

Yewande Oduwole: Good question. [00:07:30] Um, I think a lot of my career I have [00:07:35] struggled with imposter syndrome. Really? 100%. I feel even though I [00:07:40] get the accolades, you know, even literally last weekend I won the [00:07:45] award for best young dentist. South East. You felt.

Payman Langroudi: Like you didn’t deserve.

Yewande Oduwole: It? No, I felt great. [00:07:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in that sort of manifesting?

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. Like, my faith plays a huge part in my [00:07:55] life. Um, definitely believe, you know, in God and just [00:08:00] trusting that what is for you will always be for you. And I feel [00:08:05] like my path has been laid out already, but it’s up to me to, [00:08:10] to to seek it. So yeah, when I won the award, I was just like, this has actually happened. But then I had this [00:08:15] overwhelming just, oh my gosh, am I deserving of this? People are going to look at me [00:08:20] and think, oh, she’s only four years qualified. How has she won this award? I think that’s one of my [00:08:25] biggest struggles, thinking so much about what other people think. And it’s [00:08:30] so funny because I do social media and people probably think, oh, she she doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Think you don’t care.

Yewande Oduwole: No. [00:08:35] Yeah, I care, but I think the difference is I just convinced [00:08:40] myself that people always have an opinion, and it’s not up to me to change that if [00:08:45] they want to. People probably think, oh, she doesn’t deserve that or oh, she, she [00:08:50] hasn’t, she hasn’t done this clinical cases why she won this award. But at the end of [00:08:55] the day, I know there’s a reason why God set me on this path. So I’d like.

Payman Langroudi: To break [00:09:00] that down into two aspects. Go for it. One, your sort of faith. Yeah, [00:09:05] because I’ve got a friend who’s quite religious. One of my best friends. Mhm. And [00:09:10] there are moments in, in life where you know, where a challenge has happened. [00:09:15] Right. And he’s a, he’s a top surgeon. You know challenges happen to him all the time. Right. [00:09:20] And we were talking and he was saying he was having a difficult life. And he’s he’s [00:09:25] got backache. He does 12 hour operations. Um, and [00:09:30] and the operations no one else in the country can do. Oh, wow. And, you know, sometimes he can’t get out of [00:09:35] bed, but there’s a 12 hour operation that, you know, the guy might die if he doesn’t. It’s a nightmare situation. [00:09:40] You’d imagine. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes when he’s talking about these situations, his eyes [00:09:45] kind of glaze over and he goes, but you know what? It’s going to be okay. 100%. [00:09:50] And I’m like, how do you know? And he goes, no, it’s going to be okay. And [00:09:55] I suddenly realised that that’s his faith. Yeah. And so I don’t have faith. [00:10:00] Right. So I don’t have that moment. Yeah. As my wife was being taken away in the ambulance, [00:10:05] I didn’t have that moment of thinking. It’s going to be okay. Someone’s looking out for me. Yeah. So there [00:10:10] are moments when when someone dies here, I don’t have that moment of thinking they’ve gone to [00:10:15] this better place, that they’re looking down on me or whatever. You know, religion tells you. Yeah. [00:10:20] Um, and, you know, there’s that famous phrase about, uh, there’s no atheists in a bomb shelter [00:10:25] sort of thing. Yeah. And, you know, or if I’m really need something [00:10:30] to happen, I don’t. I can’t pray to someone to say, please make this thing happen. Yeah. [00:10:35] So, so there are downsides to not having faith.

Yewande Oduwole: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: But there are downsides [00:10:40] to having faith as well. So tell me about those. I mean, do you do you have massive [00:10:45] guilt or something?

Yewande Oduwole: So it’s a lot to unpack there. What you’ve just [00:10:50] said, I think firstly, my faith, I feel like I wouldn’t be where I [00:10:55] am today without my faith. It has genuinely, genuinely been [00:11:00] such a catalyst in my success. And obviously, for someone like you [00:11:05] that you said you don’t have faith for you, that probably just sounds strange. Like, no, you feel that I did it all myself, [00:11:10] but I genuinely feel in moments. For example, if we take it back to when I didn’t get into dental school. [00:11:15] Yeah, that was the biggest test of my faith. I remember [00:11:20] when was it 2013? I first applied to dental school [00:11:25] over ten years ago now, which feels so weird. I prayed so much. I [00:11:30] was like, I want to get in and I didn’t. I got two offers. I [00:11:35] got an offer from Manchester and Liverpool. So I was thinking great because I wanted to be in a [00:11:40] city. I was thinking, it’s all working out.

Payman Langroudi: You missed it by 1%.

Yewande Oduwole: I’ve heard this. Yes. So [00:11:45] I had got these. Imagine you have two offers from these top dental schools [00:11:50] and you do your exams. I had done countless of past papers. Right? [00:11:55] I’m a I’m a hard worker. I’m not someone that’s naturally smart. I have to work hard. [00:12:00] So I did so many past papers revise, revise, revise. And it got to the day Payman [00:12:05] did the exam finished and I remember the invigilator coming round. She picked [00:12:10] up my paper, turned it around and said, oh, you didn’t want to answer this 25 [00:12:15] mark question at the back.

Payman Langroudi: You just didn’t see it.

Yewande Oduwole: I didn’t see it until this day. [00:12:20] Every time I tell this story, I feel that moment all over again. I literally [00:12:25] burst into tears. I was thinking, can I have that back? I can answer it. I can answer it. It was a question about [00:12:30] the heart or something. It was a biology exam and I was just like, how did I miss that? And I [00:12:35] think that’s one of those moments when you’re like, God, Why? Yeah. Like I’ve literally [00:12:40] I could see those offers that I had flying out the window. Because if I’ve missed out this whole question, there’s no way I’m going [00:12:45] to get my result. Yeah. So I think that year I was really depressed because [00:12:50] obviously the results came out. And to make matters worse, it was 1% [00:12:55] off. You got.

Payman Langroudi: Everything else right, I.

Yewande Oduwole: Guess. So even if I just answered like a few other things, I would have got it. [00:13:00] So I was thinking, how could this be? And I was really battling with God, saying, what’s [00:13:05] what’s going on here? Like I prayed, I got the offers. What is going on? Um, I even paid for a remark [00:13:10] that year. I had to, like, work. By the way, I’ve had like seven jobs. I’ll get into that later, [00:13:15] but I had to work during my gap year because I didn’t want to, like, burden my parents with the finances. [00:13:20] Um, I had to remark my paper. It was £200 at the time. £200 was a lot money. [00:13:25] I was like, oh, to remark a paper, but I wanted to make sure.

Payman Langroudi: And it came back 1% off again, [00:13:30] 1% off.

Yewande Oduwole: Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I guess you’re going to tell me then you had [00:13:35] a great year and then you realised what God’s big plan was, or something like this. But. But we [00:13:40] were talking about Uchenna before. Yes. And I had Uchenna on this pod and [00:13:45] she said to me, her sister passed away in her 30s. And [00:13:50] I said, and she was a very religious person. Yeah. And I said to her, did that not shake [00:13:55] your belief? Of course. And she said it strengthened her belief that I don’t understand, [00:14:00] because I do understand your your one. If the following year you had this great year. Yeah. You found yourself. [00:14:05] And that was God’s big plan or whatever. But what was God’s big plan in taking her sister? And [00:14:10] it’s really interesting that if your dreams come true, if your prayers come true, that [00:14:15] strengthens your resolve. But if your prayers don’t come true, that strengthens your resolve [00:14:20] again. And that’s the interesting part of it for me, that second part.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So explain that to me. [00:14:25]

Yewande Oduwole: So there’s a scripture in the Bible, Proverbs three verse 5 to 6, which says, trust in the Lord [00:14:30] with all your heart. Do not lean on your own understanding. Um, seek his will in all you do, and he will show you [00:14:35] which path to take.

Payman Langroudi: He moves in mysterious ways.

Yewande Oduwole: So I think the answer to that question [00:14:40] is that there is a greater understanding that we don’t have. And if you sit in that moment, [00:14:45] for example, Uchenna, may God bless her soul, she in that [00:14:50] moment when her sister passed away, she didn’t know what was going on. You know, death [00:14:55] is something nobody wants, but God sees it all and [00:15:00] he understands. And I think that’s where we talk about faith and it comes in. It is comforting. And [00:15:05] from that, her legacy lives on. You don’t know what that could, could [00:15:10] drive. So I think give me give me another example.

Payman Langroudi: A child is born [00:15:15] three days later, a bomb drops on him and he dies. It just happened. So many, so many children have died [00:15:20] that way in Palestine. Apparently there’s something like 300 children who were born after [00:15:25] October the 7th that died today. Yeah. When you look at that, what [00:15:30] do you literally just outsource that to God? Moves in mysterious ways? No, obviously. [00:15:35] How do you feel about that?

Yewande Oduwole: Things like that. It’s it. Obviously it breaks my [00:15:40] heart and what’s happening in Palestine.

Payman Langroudi: But the god, the God part of it. I’ll tell you what. Muslims, Muslims [00:15:45] say something like this. They say you saw that? Yeah. That child [00:15:50] was innocent. That child’s got going directly to heaven. But you saw that. And [00:15:55] so if you don’t learn from that, that’s your test. Yeah. [00:16:00] That’s what Muslims say about that. Yeah. What do you think?

Yewande Oduwole: God gives us free will. And we cannot [00:16:05] control what humans do. Like, for example, the people that are [00:16:10] obviously bombing and the world leaders, they’ve been given free will. And that’s the thing about Christianity. We believe that everyone [00:16:15] has been given this free will. So you can’t necessarily control what other people do, but it’s [00:16:20] how you respond to it. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Similar.

Yewande Oduwole: It’s it’s so [00:16:25] tricky and I don’t have all the answers. But what I do believe is that there is power [00:16:30] in faith and prayer, and not all the time it’s going to go the way you want. You know, I wish I could pray [00:16:35] today and end everything that’s going on in Palestine. But again, it’s so complicated [00:16:40] and there is an element of free will. And ultimately [00:16:45] God sees it all and he knows the final plan. So.

Payman Langroudi: But not to mention [00:16:50] in that war, both sides think God is on their side. Yeah. [00:16:55] Both sides. Both sides deeply believe that. Yeah. And so, you know, religion. [00:17:00] You know, I don’t have to spell it out for you. There’s all sorts of problems with religion, of [00:17:05] course.

Yewande Oduwole: And we could talk about religion for ages, but it’s not the purpose of the podcast. And I know, I’m [00:17:10] so sorry. No, no, no, I know, but it’s one of these things like religion can cause [00:17:15] wars. But the thing about religion, there’s a difference between religion and relationship. Religion. Religion [00:17:20] is where people are like, you can’t do this, you can’t do that. You’ve got to act in this way. [00:17:25] But I believe in like a relationship with God, and I see.

Payman Langroudi: You believe in.

Yewande Oduwole: Karma. [00:17:30] Karma? Oh. I [00:17:35] feel like I if you do good, you can’t always expect good to come [00:17:40] back to you. Like good things happen to bad people, you know? And it’s one of these things I think you. [00:17:45] I believe in just having control over what you do and not worrying. Oh, if I do [00:17:50] this, is this going to happen to me? Like like you said in the beginning, I, I quite a positive [00:17:55] person. My mindset is that if this makes me happy, I’m going to [00:18:00] do it. Okay. Somebody else like, for example, I was talking to my friend about this the other day. [00:18:05] I’m the kind of person I will help other people, right? You know, if someone needs [00:18:10] you and you know I need connection with this person, or I want this job or. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Yeah. [00:18:15] I was the person in uni I would give people like. I remember there was this top secret [00:18:20] revision bundle that you had to pay for. I’d be like, oh, I’ve got it, you know, have it. [00:18:25] You know, I believe in an abundance mentality where everybody can win, but I [00:18:30] know there are people that I will do stuff for them that they will never do for me. But if I got so bogged [00:18:35] down by, oh, this person’s not going to do this for me, why should I do it for them? I think that it [00:18:40] can just, you know, cause so much negativity. So yes.

Payman Langroudi: You wouldn’t be [00:18:45] true to yourself, right?

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. And I think if you are true to yourself in everything that you do, [00:18:50] naturally, good things will come.

Payman Langroudi: To you about the other part of it, the [00:18:55] awards. Oh, yeah. And, you know, congratulations. Yeah. A couple of things I [00:19:00] want to talk about awards. Number one, were you tactical about winning this award [00:19:05] like is because I get the feeling that you can’t win it without being tactical. Like, did you call up a bunch [00:19:10] of people and find out what it is? What does it take to win the award? Did you what [00:19:15] did you do? What did you do to win? If, let’s say there’s someone else, there’s a young Dental student right now listening to this. [00:19:20] Yeah. And he’s thinking, I want to win an award. What did you do to win [00:19:25] the award? And number two, do you have empathy with a large group of [00:19:30] people who say, you know, these awards are divisive? Um, [00:19:35] there’s a top dentist somewhere who would never enter awards. And now, now, now, now [00:19:40] they’re telling him the top dentist in your town is this other guy.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, [00:19:45] Awards. I think firstly, for the first part of the question, I [00:19:50] didn’t call people up. I didn’t I didn’t even know I was going to win. Like, I, people were [00:19:55] telling me, oh, did you know you were going to win? Do you have so many contacts? No, none of that. I literally followed the. [00:20:00]

Payman Langroudi: The guidelines.

Yewande Oduwole: The guidelines and just.

Payman Langroudi: Ticked them off.

Yewande Oduwole: Literally. I’m that kind of person where [00:20:05] I would go through everything. Okay. So they asked for you need to talk about your, you know, clinical [00:20:10] skills. You have to I put a case in there that I’ve completed, um, what you do outside of dentistry, [00:20:15] any charitable work I’ve done volunteering in Ghana. But I did that. I didn’t do it [00:20:20] because I wanted I wanted to enter into a war later. But that’s just what I did whilst I was in uni. [00:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, I was talking to one of the judges and he was saying more than half the entries get thrown out because they just don’t [00:20:30] don’t answer the questions on the form. Literally more than.

Yewande Oduwole: Half. That’s crazy. So [00:20:35] you can win an award if you just follow. Yeah, even my friend. I [00:20:40] encouraged her to apply for her practice and she followed the guidelines and they [00:20:45] ended up winning as well. Oh, cool. So she, you know, so you don’t have to be. Some have [00:20:50] loads of Instagram followers. People think it’s about Instagram followers or who you know. No, just follow [00:20:55] the guidelines, make sure it looks good. Your presentation I literally did like [00:21:00] a.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. The judges, they’re giving up their time to read these awards. They don’t get [00:21:05] paid for it. Yeah, they literally have to volunteer to go through all these stand out. You need to stand out. Yeah, [00:21:10] I put together I think it was like 30 page PowerPoint presentation.

Payman Langroudi: 30. Okay.

Yewande Oduwole: That’s good. 30 [00:21:15] page PowerPoint presentation highlighting everything that I’ve done in my career. You [00:21:20] know what I do outside of dentistry and my work with the Black Dental Network, my volunteering [00:21:25] podcasts I’ve been on and all these things. I think [00:21:30] being a dentist, obviously it’s a given. We’re all going to be, you know, [00:21:35] I hope we all aspire to have great clinical dentistry. That’s a [00:21:40] given. Everyone’s going to be good. It’s like when you go to university, you all have good grades, you know. So [00:21:45] to enter, it’s given that you do good dentistry. I think what the judges are after, they want to [00:21:50] know, okay. Apart from that, what makes you a well-rounded dentist, [00:21:55] by the way?

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I went to the awards. Yeah, after the BCD, it was on the same night, [00:22:00] and the FMC did a fantastic job. The last time I’d been [00:22:05] was like 5 or 6 years ago. All right. And it was, it was, you know, they call it the Oscars of dentistry. [00:22:10] It literally felt like the Oscars.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Talking Grosvenor House 1000 [00:22:15] people. Yeah. The production quality. I mean, it was [00:22:20] just it was just a beautiful, beautiful setting. You know, it was really was beautiful. And I came away from [00:22:25] it. You know, I don’t particularly give a damn about awards one way or the other, you know? But I came away [00:22:30] from it thinking I’m going to that every year.

Yewande Oduwole: Because.

Payman Langroudi: It was almost the gathering of the year. [00:22:35] Yeah. And and why not at the gathering of the year? Celebrate success. I’m not hating [00:22:40] on it. Of course I’m asking is, do you have empathy with the people who do not [00:22:45] like it?

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. And I, I, I know a dentist. [00:22:50] He applied the year before I did, and I wanted him to win so badly. Like, because [00:22:55] he’s so amazing. His work’s amazing, you know? And I really emphasised that these [00:23:00] people that do amazing dentistry, they won’t always get the award. And I’m just like, it [00:23:05] shouldn’t be like that, you know. But then I think that’s where you have to kind of be like, I don’t need this [00:23:10] award. Even if I didn’t win, I still feel good in myself.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you in the top 50 as well? [00:23:15]

Yewande Oduwole: Yes. Are you? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s was another divisive issue.

Yewande Oduwole: That was that [00:23:20] was in 2022. But again, it’s because I choose to put myself out there. Sure. And [00:23:25] at the end of the day.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, do you take these back to your mom and say, look, mom, my.

Yewande Oduwole: Mom’s [00:23:30] really proud. No.

Payman Langroudi: I think that look, if I had ever won. I’ve never won an award. But if I’d [00:23:35] ever won an award, I feel like that would be the most fun moment. Taking it back to mom.

Yewande Oduwole: And [00:23:40] that’s what I do it for, to be like, look, mom. And she’s so proud. She’s telling [00:23:45] all her friends she’s posting on Facebook, telling all the aunties and uncles and just that feeling of just knowing [00:23:50] that the.

Payman Langroudi: Conclusion of her struggle. Yes. I love that.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I do love that. [00:23:55] And I and even if you know these awards, for me, it’s just I [00:24:00] do it for knowing that I’ve made my parents proud. And regardless, [00:24:05] I don’t want people to listen to this and feel like, ah, I need to get an award to feel like, [00:24:10] validated. You are validated if you do great dentistry, if you care about your [00:24:15] patients, patience. If you love dentistry, if you’re if you’re a great dentist, you do not need an award. So [00:24:20] I don’t want to feel like I am saying, oh, you know, you [00:24:25] need an award to be the best dentist, you know? So I get where you’re coming from, and there’s so many dentists [00:24:30] out there that do not have the best young dentist title, but you are still a fantastic, amazing [00:24:35] dentist. Um, yeah, because it is problematic.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:24:40] school in Plymouth Peninsula? Yes.

Yewande Oduwole: Peninsula [00:24:45] Dental School. How did you feel.

Payman Langroudi: When you got there? Um, from the sort of workload perspective, [00:24:50] because I was talking to my buddies last night and I was telling them dentistry [00:24:55] was the hardest goddamn thing I’d ever like. They were all saying A-levels was the hardest thing [00:25:00] they’ve ever done.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: I felt dentistry was harder than A-levels.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, gosh. Honestly, [00:25:05] I found it really hard. I did the International Baccalaureate. I was a bit more prepared [00:25:10] because you have to do IB, you do six instead of four A-levels. [00:25:15] So when I got to dentistry, when I got to dental school, firstly Plymouth, I didn’t. I wanted [00:25:20] to be in a city. Like I said, I applied, I wanted to be in Manchester, Liverpool, these big cities, Birmingham. And then when I got [00:25:25] Plymouth, I was like, where? Where is this place? But I was happy. I got you, you get what you’re given that [00:25:30] the second time round I applied. That was the only. What did.

Payman Langroudi: You think of it when you got.

Yewande Oduwole: There? I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:25:35] were in middle of nowhere.

Yewande Oduwole: I thought I was in the middle of nowhere.

Payman Langroudi: The naval base, whatever.

Yewande Oduwole: Literally. [00:25:40] But I grew to love it. Yeah. And I’m glad I went to Plymouth. Um, those [00:25:45] five years, I look back at dental school. Honestly. Amazing. Um. Imagine [00:25:50] no one else can say that they. Well, if you went to Plymouth, you can say. But you studied by [00:25:55] the sea, would go out to the beach. And it was really lovely place to study. And I made amazing [00:26:00] friends there. We still we’re still friends till this day. Um, and that’s [00:26:05] where I did a lot of my YouTube videos in my room.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s where it started.

Yewande Oduwole: That’s where it started. [00:26:10] So as soon as I got in, I said to myself, I want to. I’ve made it now [00:26:15] into dental school. There’s probably loads of other young dentists, especially, you know, young black [00:26:20] female dentists that they don’t have anyone to look up to. Like I was saying [00:26:25] before we started this podcast. Doctor Uchenna Okoye, she was one of the first black female [00:26:30] dentists I saw on a Sensodyne advert. And I saw her. I was like, oh my gosh, someone [00:26:35] that looks like me, I can do this. So that’s why I said I need to put myself [00:26:40] out there.

Payman Langroudi: It was that influential that seeing someone who looks like you made [00:26:45] you think, I can do this. It really was that.

Yewande Oduwole: Representation is.

Payman Langroudi: Key.

Yewande Oduwole: Because [00:26:50] if you don’t see someone that looks like you, you kind of feel or script.

Payman Langroudi: Yourself [00:26:55] in other directions.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. And even in dental school, I think I was one of two black people there. [00:27:00] So it’s. Yeah, I wrote an article about this [00:27:05] on dentistry. Co.uk during black. It was me, Doctor Media and Chinwe. We wrote an [00:27:10] article on Black Lives Matter. Yeah, during Black Lives Matter time on the importance of representation. [00:27:15] Um, so that was a big deal for me. That’s why I put myself out [00:27:20] there on YouTube to make these videos. And since then, I’ve had so [00:27:25] many people, like, reach out to me like you, and you’ve helped me get into dental school. Thank you for your video. [00:27:30] And that feeling alone made it all worth it. Yeah. [00:27:35] So what about.

Payman Langroudi: Just from the, you know, being away from home for the first time and, like, [00:27:40] were you the party animal type? Were you not? Were you bookworm? [00:27:45] Who were you at dental school? Did you find were you were you passing exams every [00:27:50] time? First time or.

Yewande Oduwole: I’m a bit of both. I like to say I’m a social butterfly. [00:27:55] But when it’s time to study up, you won’t find me. I’ll be in my room.

Payman Langroudi: Did you pass your exams? [00:28:00]

Yewande Oduwole: Um, there was one, actually. The medical emergency. One. I remember this, I remember I [00:28:05] failed it because I was doing my chest compressions too lightly. So I had to do that one again. [00:28:10] But I wasn’t like, you know, top of the class or anything. I’d get by. I’d [00:28:15] get I’ll do what needed to be done to get to get through to the next bit. Thank God I didn’t have to like retake [00:28:20] a year whilst in dental school. Um, so I did what was needed. And [00:28:25] during my time in dental school as part of a choir gospel choir again, um, my [00:28:30] faith, I’d go every Thursday. We had like Bible study fellowship. So that really grounded me. [00:28:35] And I also ran an eyebrow threading business in uni. Really? Yes. So [00:28:40] I wrote that in my personal statement, actually, the manual dexterity aspect. I taught myself how to thread [00:28:45] eyebrows in secondary school, so I’d be on the playground, sort of like threading eyebrows. [00:28:50] They’d pay me like £3 per eyebrow. And then in uni I put the price up a bit. So I’d had that and I bought [00:28:55] like this whole. I was like the main eyebrow lady in Plymouth, where people would come to [00:29:00] me from like different courses to to thread their eyebrows. So I had that little business going [00:29:05] on on the side and the.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence to do that. Did you get that from your year out working [00:29:10] in retail?

Yewande Oduwole: Oh yeah. So I like to I’m a very hard [00:29:15] working person. Like that’s one thing I would whatever it is, [00:29:20] I’ve been a cleaner I’ve worked in. Yeah. Derriford hospital during.

Payman Langroudi: Covid.

Yewande Oduwole: So [00:29:25] that was in the pandemic. Um, I stayed in Plymouth and I decided to work in the hospital. [00:29:30] They needed people there. In my year out, I worked in retail in All Saints in Stratford. [00:29:35] Okay. And then I worked in Apple and.

Payman Langroudi: One of those kids with [00:29:40] the t shirts.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Literally, you’d walk into Apple. I’d be the person there. Give me, give me.

Payman Langroudi: Some [00:29:45] takeaways you got from retail. Because I was 17, my parents said you’re a spoilt bitch. [00:29:50] Go work. Yeah. They they made me work in Oxford Street. Oh, [00:29:55] wow. I only lasted two weeks to say the truth. Did you? But I learned so much. Yeah. And the primary [00:30:00] lesson I learned was I never want to be the guy who works in Oxford Street. You know, like that, you know. [00:30:05] Because I was spoilt little 17 year old getting everything, getting everything I wanted. [00:30:10] And then I saw, wow, this is like people’s lives, people’s careers. And [00:30:15] I’ve told this story before on the pod, but I used to spend more than I used to earn.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:30:20] every day. Like I’d take a taxi to work. I’d have steak at lunch. I [00:30:25] Payman go shopping. Whatever. Like, literally, like, [00:30:30] spent more than I was earning. But that was a lesson in itself. Yeah, the lesson into what a [00:30:35] bitch I was, number one. And and you know, the fact that there were other people there who had their [00:30:40] whole lives was that. And you know how lucky I was. I didn’t realise that there was a 17 [00:30:45] year old doing anything to you. So go on, tell me takeaways you got from working in Apple or [00:30:50] working in Allsaints? What kind of takeaways did you take?

Yewande Oduwole: I feel like everyone should work in retail. I felt that it [00:30:55] really made me see the value of just communication [00:31:00] with people. It’s really helped in dentistry, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember in All Saints we had a [00:31:05] target. We had to sell X number of leather jackets during the week and having [00:31:10] to really just you, you had to be a people person. You had to. I hate being salesy, but [00:31:15] it really made me realise the importance of just speaking [00:31:20] to people that you might not necessarily speak to.

Payman Langroudi: Of all types.

Yewande Oduwole: Of all types. You know, when you’re working [00:31:25] in retail, you meet all kinds of people and you have to have great customer service, [00:31:30] um, which is transferable in dentistry? A lot of dentistry is all about the communication. [00:31:35] Um, and it just taught me the importance of just hard work. And there [00:31:40] were people there that were like double my age and they were grafting. And I was thinking, oh, I don’t want to be working [00:31:45] here in like ten years time. So I think it just about Apple.

Payman Langroudi: What’s it like working for [00:31:50] Apple?

Yewande Oduwole: Apple. Apple was great. That was one of the best jobs. Their ethos [00:31:55] with Apple they hire people based on personality. So you don’t have to know everything about [00:32:00] how to fix a the phone. They will teach you that. Yeah. So literally when you go into Apple, you realise that [00:32:05] everybody’s there. Really. They’re there to help you. So I remember the interview stages of [00:32:10] Apple. It was really it was a lot of like teamwork, communication. And they [00:32:15] want their brand to be built on the people. And I think when you go into that shop, [00:32:20] you can’t stand there for more than five minutes without someone coming up to ask you, do you need help? [00:32:25] Are you okay?

Payman Langroudi: And they literally teach you that. Like if they look out on the floor for people.

Yewande Oduwole: They hire [00:32:30] people that are like the type.

Payman Langroudi: Of person that I.

Yewande Oduwole: Like that already. Um, what.

Payman Langroudi: About the targets? I mean, [00:32:35] do they? You said leather jackets are awesome at Apple. Are they like, we’re making £3 million a day?

Yewande Oduwole: Apple. [00:32:40] They’re already making money. So it wasn’t target. They care about customer experience.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:32:45] much does one of those big stores make a day? Or do they not share that with you?

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, I didn’t they didn’t [00:32:50] really share that with us. I mean, I but I went there because I needed to make money during my gap year. I didn’t [00:32:55] really go into the business side of all of it, but probably like a fair amount.

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking about that because [00:33:00] I saw some stat that per square metre, an Apple Store makes more money than any other [00:33:05] store. But what’s crazy about that is they’re giant stores. It’s not [00:33:10] like they’re tiny stores. The number two is Tiffany’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So Tiffany’s, you can see it’s a small [00:33:15] store. Expensive products. You can understand it. Yeah. But Apple. Then I was thinking about it, and I thought, I’ve never [00:33:20] in any other situation do I go in and out of the store and spend as [00:33:25] much as I, because I go in knowing what I’m going to buy. So like I literally walk in saying, I’m looking for a MacBook [00:33:30] Pro one seven minutes later, I’m walking out having spent £2,000 [00:33:35] or whatever it costs, right? Yeah. So you can understand it when you think of it that way, but just [00:33:40] the size of those stores. And then, and, you know, the American ones are even bigger. Yeah. So so [00:33:45] interesting. So okay, then you did.

Yewande Oduwole: Um, [00:33:50] VAT throwback.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you do.

Yewande Oduwole: You know what? I [00:33:55] wanted to work in London. And then again, I feel like I always end up where I [00:34:00] don’t pick my first choice. Always the.

Payman Langroudi: Bridesmaid.

Yewande Oduwole: Literally. I ended up in Gravesend [00:34:05] and I know Gravesend. There was a lot of deprived. It was a deprived area and I think it was the [00:34:10] best place I ended up because I did a lot of experience. Yeah. Experience and nitty gritty [00:34:15] dentistry. I loved my educational supervisors, Raymond [00:34:20] and Sarita. Raymond was a dentist. He’d been working for over 40 years in the same practice. He’s [00:34:25] retired now, but he really took me under his wing and [00:34:30] taught you. Taught me so much about just dentistry [00:34:35] and working in the same practice. I think there’s beauty in working in the [00:34:40] same practice for a long time. You see your failures for sure. Um, which [00:34:45] is why the practice I’m at at the moment, I’ve been there for a few years now, and it’s quite nice to see your work [00:34:50] coming back and learning from it. Uh, so yeah, my foundation year was was [00:34:55] was brilliant. And it was during Covid actually.

Payman Langroudi: So actually you were one [00:35:00] of those Covid Covid babies.

Yewande Oduwole: Covid baby. Pandemic baby.

Payman Langroudi: So your experience level was [00:35:05] less than most. By the time you came out of dental school, is that right or not?

Yewande Oduwole: I [00:35:10] feel going to Peninsula Dental School. We had an advantage because unlike a lot of dental [00:35:15] schools, we have to see the patient from the very beginning and treatment plan everything as [00:35:20] you would in practice. Whereas I know other dental schools they have.

Payman Langroudi: This is a bit different in that sense. Department. So you’ve seen [00:35:25] a little bit seen.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I feel like I had actually had good experience. So I’m really grateful to Peninsula [00:35:30] for that. And there are quite a modern dental school where they teach us photography and like the [00:35:35] importance of these things. So I was already quite I take pictures of my work. Um, so [00:35:40] I felt like I went into foundation training with a good understanding. But [00:35:45] like everyone knows, dental school doesn’t teach you everything. You got to learn a lot on the job. [00:35:50] Yeah. Um, but during the pandemic, we had to wait for like fallow [00:35:55] times and AGP procedures. We had to get the mask. [00:36:00] Thinking about it. Yeah. So I remember I was so excited to get fit tested because [00:36:05] I could finally do an AGP procedure. Oh those times.

Payman Langroudi: So this is your.

Yewande Oduwole: This [00:36:10] is my. Yeah. So it was it was like before I actually got to do dentistry [00:36:15] was a lot of hoops to go through. And after you did the procedure you’d have to wait [00:36:20] outside for a bit for the room to clear. So did you not.

Payman Langroudi: Consider staying on in that practice [00:36:25] or you just really wanted to get back to London?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I wanted to get back to London. Um, but they [00:36:30] they wanted me to stay, but I think I did. I did my time in Gravesend [00:36:35] and the, the supervisor that was seen me, he was retiring as well. And, [00:36:40] um, the practice I ended up going to actually I remember two green Dental. It wasn’t [00:36:45] it was like 40 minutes, 30 minutes away. I remember during my [00:36:50] foundation year I had a case coming up, um, a composite bonding case, [00:36:55] and I wanted. I was literally doing these cases like, to, to, like, practice. [00:37:00] But then we didn’t have a certain composite that I wanted to use enamel. We’ll [00:37:05] say it’s enamel. So I remember contacting, [00:37:10] um, Rajiv, which one was it called?

Payman Langroudi: Which was?

Yewande Oduwole: It was impressed, but also [00:37:15] reliable. So I wanted to do the case, but I didn’t have the composite. And I wanted to, you [00:37:20] know, obviously do it nicely. So I contacted the practice, and he actually gave me the composite and [00:37:25] guided me through the case. So I think the fact that he helped [00:37:30] me through that, my first case in PhD year, I was like, this seems like someone that [00:37:35] will invest time and knowledge into me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, Rajiv, I [00:37:40] was very, very, very impressed with him when I spoke to him. I grabbed him during [00:37:45] bacd and we recorded a little 15 minute section.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. [00:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, I know who he is. I’ve been following him. But I was very impressed with this. Just like [00:37:55] curiosity of the guy and the amount of different things he does. [00:38:00] And I haven’t been to the new one boutique. It looks beautiful. [00:38:05] Yeah, it looks. And it’s a sister as well, right?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So, um, they [00:38:10] have their they have three practices and they’re such great businesses.

Payman Langroudi: Called [00:38:15] two.

Yewande Oduwole: Green. No, no. Two green. Dental. Two green boutique and the figs Marsh Dental. Okay, so they’re all different, [00:38:20] but the way they’re very meticulous with the way they handle their business. And they [00:38:25] put a lot into their associates. So a lot of young associates, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Pay attention [00:38:30] to the non-clinical learnings in a place like that. Yeah, [00:38:35] yeah. Because it’s it’s a unique setup that it’s such a big [00:38:40] practice. And, you know, he’s after quality and he’s after bringing [00:38:45] people up, bringing people through. And I look back on all the jobs I’ve done as [00:38:50] a dentist. Not that many because I quit at whatever it was, but but out of those jobs, [00:38:55] I think back, and I think I learned this from that guy. I learned that I learned not to [00:39:00] do this from that person. Yeah. Mhm. Um, and I’m sure, you know, he’s great on clinical [00:39:05] because he is he’s one of those guys who likes to do a lot of everything.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh he loves clinical. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what [00:39:10] I was going to say was try and learn the other side from someone like Rajiv, you know, because, um, he [00:39:15] seems to do it sort of effortlessly from the outside. I don’t know whether he’s like a swan. He’s, like, running [00:39:20] quickly under the water.

Yewande Oduwole: No, he’s not bothered. He he just does things. And I think we all kind of look at him. [00:39:25] Oh, he just gets on with it. And he loves his work. And I’ve learned so much [00:39:30] in that practice. Does he go for awards? No. So I actually applied for the practice. [00:39:35] So I put together a presentation for best team. No [00:39:40] input from Rajiv. But do you see what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: So something like that. He could win an award? Yeah, I’m sure if he went [00:39:45] for it, he’d execute on that as well. Right.

Yewande Oduwole: But just not bothered. Yeah. And this [00:39:50] is the thing you can. It just depends how you like. If you’re not bothered and you know you’re doing good dentistry. You don’t [00:39:55] really need the award. But I thought this is a great team. I’m going to put together a presentation. And we [00:40:00] ended up winning. So. But you did win. Yeah we won.

Payman Langroudi: And is it a happy team?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. [00:40:05] Honestly, I love my team. And I think this is why I’ve stayed in the practice for three years now, going on four [00:40:10] years, like, me and my nurse were like yin and yang. She. I basically trained she’s [00:40:15] basically like a dentist. So if my rubber dam is slightly [00:40:20] not on properly, or if, you know I haven’t done the last bit of polishing, she’d call me [00:40:25] up on it. She’ll be like, oh, you wonder, you haven’t done this, or we’ll both look at it together. [00:40:30] So I love the fact that I think it’s so important to have a good nurse by your side. [00:40:35] And she we constantly build each other up. She started not knowing how to speak [00:40:40] proper English, so I helped her with her English. And where’s she from? She’s from Romania. Simona. So [00:40:45] we we we really we’ve grown together. And I think there’s a beauty in having someone. [00:40:50] You work, you’re in a room with your nurse every all the time, you know. So it’s so important to have that [00:40:55] relationship where they can call you out. And I like that. I’m like, please call me out if [00:41:00] you think there’s something that’s you call your patients. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So do [00:41:05] you call them patients or does your nurse or does reception?

Yewande Oduwole: So I, I [00:41:10] need to get out of this habit, but I’ll stay behind after work. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Call [00:41:15] everyone from the previous day or that day.

Yewande Oduwole: Not everyone. But, like, if I.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted 2 or 3 key people.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. See how they’re going, and [00:41:20] they really appreciate it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I used to get my nurse to do it.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, but it’s [00:41:25] different when it comes from the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of course, of course. But what was amazing was how much she enjoyed that job. [00:41:30] Yeah. She used to love that job. You know, she said people are so appreciative when you call them 100%. [00:41:35] And and you know, it came down to it started off with me saying, all right, call this guy, this [00:41:40] guy and that guy. And then obviously you can decide who to call like that. And then she used to [00:41:45] come in every day and tell me, oh, this guy was so happy that I called him. It’s a lovely thing.

Yewande Oduwole: It’s nice. [00:41:50] And patients really, really appreciate that. But then it gets to a point where I’d be at work because [00:41:55] we work in shifts at two green, 2 to 8.

Payman Langroudi: 8 to 2. Yes, 8 to 2, two eight.

Yewande Oduwole: Exactly. [00:42:00] So Monday I do 2 to 8. Tuesday I do 730 in the morning to eight at night. Well, Wednesday [00:42:05] is my day off, which is today, Thursday 730 in the morning till 130.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:42:10] it’s are you a four day week?

Yewande Oduwole: Four days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that [00:42:15] too.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. You need a day to just. Yeah. Do stuff like this. Um, [00:42:20] so I’d be at work. Let’s say I finish at eight. Sometimes I won’t leave till like 10 or 11 because I’m doing [00:42:25] treatment plans. Extra stuff. Treatment plans, calling patients. But then I [00:42:30] like to leave knowing it’s done. I don’t like to bring things from the next day into another day [00:42:35] that really messes me up. I like to do what’s needed on that day and [00:42:40] then get it done. So yeah, the shift patterns at the moment, everyone’s like, oh, how do you do it? But it works. [00:42:45] Right now I feel like I haven’t got a family yet, so I can afford to be [00:42:50] at work till that time. But obviously there’s going to be a time where it’s not going to be sustainable. [00:42:55]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of dentistry do you do? Is it all cosmetic? [00:43:00]

Yewande Oduwole: No. So I do a lot of general dentistry. Cosmetic dentistry. I like [00:43:05] to be good at all the basics. So I love restorative dentistry I [00:43:10] love endo. Do you. Yeah, I really I actually do. I actually considered going down the endo route, but [00:43:15] um yeah I love it. Endo um. [00:43:20]

Payman Langroudi: Do you take out wisdom teeth?

Yewande Oduwole: So that’s, that’s my limitation. The extractions. Yeah, [00:43:25] yeah. Surgical implants, that kind of stuff. Yeah. That’s [00:43:30] that’s not my forte, but restorative. Onlays. Um, Endo. [00:43:35]

Payman Langroudi: Are you getting more comprehensive as well? Like, are you doing more than sort of single tooth [00:43:40] quadrant. Have you done any, like, full mouth stuff or.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, definitely. Those are my favourite cases. Cases? [00:43:45] Yeah. Where you’re able to. Definitely. Yeah. That’s good I [00:43:50] feel the thing is you need mentors to help you with these kind of things. So [00:43:55] I’ve completed a diploma in restorative and aesthetic Dentistry, which won a [00:44:00] Smile Academy, Gin and Kirsch and many courses. So I think [00:44:05] by doing these courses, developing my skills, you gain the confidence to do these kind of tough cases. [00:44:10] And obviously there’s going to be times where things don’t go to plan. That’s where you lean on [00:44:15] your mentors and people to advise you on what to do. Would you say.

Payman Langroudi: To a patient when [00:44:20] it’s the first time you’re doing something? Do you tell them?

Yewande Oduwole: Obviously you want [00:44:25] them to have confidence in you like it’s a massive problem.

Payman Langroudi: We were thinking talking about this. I was talking to Simon Thackeray [00:44:30] about this yesterday. Yeah. First time you’re doing something, you’ve got to do it right so [00:44:35] that you get to your second time or your third time or your fourth time. Yeah. I found back in [00:44:40] my day I telling the patient that I have a mentor was [00:44:45] was really the right move. But you need a mentor in order to do [00:44:50] that. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: No. As a foundation dentist, I’d always say, you know, my supervisor will come and check this, but [00:44:55] when you’re a few years qualified and let’s say you’re just trying out this new thing you’ve learned on a course. Yeah. [00:45:00] To tell the patient that. Oh, by the way, I’ve just.

Payman Langroudi: But when was the first time you did six veneers on [00:45:05] someone?

Yewande Oduwole: Probably my first year out of foundation. Yeah, yeah. To [00:45:10] be fair, I told the patient because it was one of my friend’s friends. So I said, by the way, you’re [00:45:15] the first person I’m doing this for. And I think because she knew [00:45:20] the kind of person I was, I’m a bit of a perfectionist where I wouldn’t leave you with rubbish. [00:45:25] I would make sure that I’d get it right. So she had faith in me. But [00:45:30] if it’s someone that I just didn’t know at all, it might be a bit different. Um, so yeah, [00:45:35] I did that and she brought me more patience after that, after I did her case.

Payman Langroudi: I think one thing, [00:45:40] one thing as a dentist, right, is some people make the mistake of thinking that [00:45:45] confidence breeds confidence in the like. Let’s [00:45:50] say you’re looking at a case. Yeah. Well, let’s leave it out of dentistry for a moment. [00:45:55] Yeah. If I’m talking to a lawyer and I ask him a question, one of the responses [00:46:00] I respect the most is I don’t know.

Yewande Oduwole: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’d much [00:46:05] rather hear, I don’t know in a way. When someone says I don’t know it means you [00:46:10] do know what you do know. And you do know what you don’t know and you don’t know the answer [00:46:15] to this question. Yeah. Where you get the feeling that this guy’s just answering all my questions and reading [00:46:20] it off. Sometimes I’m thinking, is, is this guy’s timing just brilliant? You know, is he just talking? [00:46:25] It’s just, honey, just come out of his mouth, and I’m worried. I’m more worried about the guy who’s answering [00:46:30] everything than the person who says. I don’t know a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And so now [00:46:35] let’s translate it to dentistry. You don’t need to, to to project this. Fully [00:46:40] confident has all the answers. Thing is that that’s [00:46:45] not the key. And I’ve had some top world renowned experts here. Yeah. And [00:46:50] you know, they say the same thing when you tell people all the things that could go wrong [00:46:55] and what you think particularly might go wrong here, that’s not going to put the guy off. That’s going to make [00:47:00] the guy think this guy knows what he’s talking about. This guy’s got some experience, you know, like so. [00:47:05] But as a young dentist, it’s a troubling thing. Yeah. The other thing I noticed young dentists [00:47:10] make a mistake is they they almost download everything in their head [00:47:15] to the patient. Mhm. And that’s not your job. Your job is not to tell the patient [00:47:20] everything in your head. Your job is to say the right things in the right way to that [00:47:25] person. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: You should not overload the patient with too many options. Yeah. [00:47:30] Um, one of the courses that I feel has been really important in my career. Exam cycle [00:47:35] run by Asif Saeed. He teaches on that course to communicate [00:47:40] the right recommended option for the patient, rather than saying everything, everything [00:47:45] because they’re going to leave thinking, oh my gosh, what do I do? They’re still going to leave more confused [00:47:50] than when they came in. So I agree. And on that note of being a [00:47:55] young dentist and you know what? You don’t know, I’m very happy to say I don’t know this. I [00:48:00] need to seek help. I remember when I first started posting on Instagram, I was [00:48:05] so nervous to post my cases because I knew they weren’t polished, perfect, and I know a lot of young dentists. [00:48:10] They struggle with posting their work online because of the critique I’m. [00:48:15]

Payman Langroudi: Used to that, you know, like I’m amazed how few do know.

Yewande Oduwole: Because dentists are worried. [00:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: About other dentists.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, you know, you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mini smile makeover. We always have 30 delegates. [00:48:25] Yeah, we have a marketing bit. We always ask who here has a dental Instagram [00:48:30] page.

Yewande Oduwole: Maybe four because people are scared. And my favourite thing [00:48:35] to say is feel the fear, but do it anyway. Yeah. If you let fear paralyse [00:48:40] you, you’re not going to do it. And a lot of you know that saying the richest place is [00:48:45] the graveyard, because there’s just a lot of dreams that have just died there because of fear and what other people think. I [00:48:50] posted cases, if you look on my Instagram, if you go far back, there are cases I look at and I’m [00:48:55] like, oh, I should really delete this. But that was me. At a time where I was growing, I [00:49:00] was learning, I wrote a paragraph saying, oh, I could have done this better. And it was a reflection. And I think [00:49:05] the reason why people started following my journey is because I was just unapologetically myself [00:49:10] and just, I know I’m not here yet, but I am constantly improving, constantly [00:49:15] learning, constantly growing. So I think if you can be humble enough to know your limitations. [00:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: But what’s really interesting is that even some of the top guys [00:49:25] suffer with this dipesh Suffers with it. Hee hee hee. [00:49:30] Won’t like post.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Uh, and by the way, even less like [00:49:35] George the Dentist. He will. He will post here. But even George’s dentist. [00:49:40] There’s a guy better than him, right? So he could have that fear.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, of course, [00:49:45] but there’s always going to be someone better than you.

Payman Langroudi: But Kunal kind of gets around [00:49:50] this mentally in his own head. As in, this isn’t for dentists. This is for patients. [00:49:55] Yeah. And I don’t care what dentists think about it. But. And some people have that sort of, uh, that, [00:50:00] that chip in their head that can just switch off. Yeah. That anxiety.

Yewande Oduwole: It’s about your why [00:50:05] at the end of the day, when I started my page, I my why was to inspire students [00:50:10] and help them with their dental school applications. So a lot of my things [00:50:15] that I was posting was to help students then. Now it’s turned into, you know, I want to [00:50:20] speak to patients because when people come to see me, they’ve already got a glimpse of my personality [00:50:25] and who I am. From my page, I describe Instagram as like, if you’re going to a restaurant [00:50:30] and you’re going to look on their page to see, to get an expectation of what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re getting, the food.

Yewande Oduwole: Whatever, exactly. [00:50:35] So for dentists having your Instagram page, okay, you might want to post for [00:50:40] dentists to help other dentists clinically. But then again you may want to post for patients [00:50:45] so they know what to expect. A little preview into who you are. I want [00:50:50] a dentist, a patient to feel like they know me before they’ve stepped into my.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:50:55] what percentage of your new patients come from your Instagram? Is it [00:51:00] a large number a month or so? Are we talking 1 or 2?

Yewande Oduwole: So obviously, because [00:51:05] my Instagram is largely was set up for students and dentists, not really. But now I’m [00:51:10] seeing a lot more from like TikTok and um, yeah. So I get a couple a month from [00:51:15] like Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about TikTok. Yeah, because I’m having real [00:51:20] trouble with TikTok. I adore TikTok, adore it myself as a as a user. [00:51:25] I’m on it all the time. Too much? Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Really? What do you watch on TikTok?

Payman Langroudi: Whatever.

Yewande Oduwole: You [00:51:30] know what I mean. The For You page.

Payman Langroudi: My TikTok will give me, like, crap that your TikTok won’t give you. But [00:51:35] like, it’s funny because sometimes it gives you something that you don’t even know you were into. Yeah. Like [00:51:40] I’m into bent cops. I didn’t know that, but I am. He keeps [00:51:45] sending it to me and I keep watching it.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh my gosh.

Payman Langroudi: But dentistry on TikTok. Yeah. [00:51:50] Like dentistry on Instagram. We all kind of know what it is before and afters. It’s pretty stuff. Whatever. Then [00:51:55] on TikTok, to me so far, like the people who’ve got some traction with it, they’re [00:52:00] either, um, education sort of videos with, you know, pointing to stuff [00:52:05] behind you on a green screen or some sort of salacious kind of turkey [00:52:10] teeth story. You know something? Don’t do this. I’m a dentist. I’m telling you, don’t do this. [00:52:15] And the. And I’ve got a team of people working on TikTok for enlightened. Yeah, we’ve [00:52:20] got three agencies working on it right now. One on the shop, one on the grid one. It’s [00:52:25] a pain in the ass but getting nowhere with it, getting nowhere with it. Having real difficulty [00:52:30] having a brand work on TikTok. And then I see other brands exploding on TikTok. Yeah, so [00:52:35] I’m not going to stop, just like all of social media. Yeah, you kind of keep going, keep going 100%. [00:52:40] But what are your insights on TikTok?

Yewande Oduwole: Tiktok is all about organic content. Yeah, [00:52:45] people don’t like to see curated, well polished things on TikTok. You literally [00:52:50] have to just talk to the camera. I remember I was making a video. I was just walking to my friend’s [00:52:55] house, and I just wanted to make a video on, oh, you shouldn’t rinse your mouth out with toothpaste after [00:53:00] brushing. Yeah. Just simple information like that. And that got loads of views. So [00:53:05] I think when you make it too curated, people will swipe off. People love real stories [00:53:10] on TikTok. And what I.

Payman Langroudi: Love about it is it’s the content [00:53:15] is the driver of the reach. Yeah, it’s not about followers.

Yewande Oduwole: No. [00:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: That’s amazing. You can reach.

Yewande Oduwole: So many people. Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You just met Richard. Yeah. The [00:53:25] videographer. I would say Richard, you know. Dude, like, literally, you could reach 30 million people [00:53:30] if you made the right video. Yeah. It’s not about followers.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, people adore that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:53:35]

Yewande Oduwole: No, people like Shaadi Onkar. Yeah, they’re out there. Rona.

Payman Langroudi: Rona says she’s [00:53:40] getting much more growth out of tick tock.

Yewande Oduwole: Tick tock is the new thing now. Um, I feel like Instagram [00:53:45] is, you know, polished work or where people go to kind of get a gist of who you [00:53:50] are. But tick tock, that’s where you can get new clients. I had someone come and see me from Tick Tock [00:53:55] because they felt that they watched my video and they said, I felt like, yeah, I can relate to you [00:54:00] and you’re someone that I’d want to treat me. Um, so is that.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of video you’re doing? Sort of the educational [00:54:05] type educational? I’m a dentist. This is what I think. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Also, like patients speaking [00:54:10] about their treatment.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So it works. That works before, like, I [00:54:15] like.

Payman Langroudi: Reveal.

Yewande Oduwole: Reveal videos. People love that. People like to see [00:54:20] what’s going on behind the scenes in the surgery. So yeah, TikTok. If [00:54:25] I think a lot of people thought TikTok was just about dancing, I remember when it first came out, it’s not. That was years ago, but [00:54:30] it’s changed. It’s evolving. And social media is, I think not every dentist needs social [00:54:35] media. I always say this just because you don’t have social media doesn’t mean you’re not a great dentist. [00:54:40] It’s one of these things where the best dentist probably don’t even have social media, but it’s just getting yourself [00:54:45] out there and putting yourself on the forefront for people to find you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So so when we [00:54:50] ask at the course, we say, who here has Dental, Instagram, whatever. [00:54:55] And four people put their hands up and then is it. Who here has Instagram. Yeah. [00:55:00] Who here goes on Instagram.

Yewande Oduwole: And everyone puts their hand. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s the thing right. [00:55:05] And like I’m looking at the number of hours I spend on TikTok personally. Yeah. You know like it.

Yewande Oduwole: Takes [00:55:10] 1.

Payman Langroudi: To 3 a.m.. I’m rotting my brain. I’m flicking through.

Yewande Oduwole: I’ve got a timer to [00:55:15] say how long I can be on Instagram for. Oh, really? My phone shuts off after, like an hour. What’s that [00:55:20] called? It’s just timer. You go on your iPhone.

Payman Langroudi: And just put a timer.

Yewande Oduwole: On. You put a timer? No, you. You can [00:55:25] put a restriction on an app. Oh. Can you. To tell you that you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Show me how. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Because it [00:55:30] can be a slippery slope. Sometimes I’ll just post and I’ll come off it because I just don’t want to spend all [00:55:35] day scrolling. Yeah. Um, so, yeah. No. Instagram, TikTok. [00:55:40] The world of that and a lot of dentists have been actually coming to me to get them to help [00:55:45] with their social media. So currently I’m helping a dentist with his course, setting up his social media, [00:55:50] um, creating a presence on there. So are you charging him? Yeah, [00:55:55] because it’s my time. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about all of that then. Um, you’ve got a [00:56:00] couple of brand deals going. Going on, right? You’re working for Colgate? Yeah, [00:56:05] for dental protection. Mhm. Like, what is that brand ambassador. [00:56:10] Mhm.

Yewande Oduwole: So.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you have to do. What’s your side of the deal. What [00:56:15] do you have to do.

Yewande Oduwole: Obviously these companies, they want to, um, put themselves [00:56:20] out there. They want to have a positive, um, reputation so [00:56:25] they find someone that fits with their brand morals. And I like Colgate. Um, [00:56:30] and then you do a video together and.

Payman Langroudi: But what is it like a number of videos per [00:56:35] month. So you have a contract?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So you have a contract? It might be for reals. Yeah. [00:56:40] Um, it might be. You need to do this, uh, content for their page, [00:56:45] a TikTok video, um, a podcast. So we call it activity. [00:56:50] So the activity that you do, um, you get paid for it.

Payman Langroudi: And then are we going to see [00:56:55] you on, on a, on a Colgate ad? Is that.

Yewande Oduwole: Your dream.

Payman Langroudi: Come true?

Yewande Oduwole: Uh, maybe one day. [00:57:00] Maybe one day. Colgate. They don’t really do TV ads. It’s more Sensodyne that does that. [00:57:05] Um, but yeah, I like that stuff. I’m. Why not.

Payman Langroudi: Why not, why not? [00:57:10] I mean, you got into it yourself because of your channel, right?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing wrong with [00:57:15] it. And then the protection. Similar. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: So I’ve done YouTube videos for [00:57:20] them. Um, obviously they want to try and get a lot of young dentists to to join them. [00:57:25] Um, and just because they need someone that has been in that position themselves, [00:57:30] if you just get, I don’t know, Mandy, from the dental protection team to, to say that it’s not [00:57:35] going to hit home the way it would somebody that’s gone through it. Um, and because I do a lot of [00:57:40] work with students and young dentists anyway, I guess I was their perfect poster girl. [00:57:45] And likewise, there’s other students as well that are following that same trajectory. Getting [00:57:50] the sponsorship deals. And I think with dentistry, there’s enough room for everyone to there’s so [00:57:55] many companies out there that need people to represent them in a positive way. Um, I do a lot of work [00:58:00] with my colleague Chinwe. So she’s doing stuff with. Um, do I remember there was a time where I was with dental protection. [00:58:05] She was promoting stuff for do so. Um, it wasn’t like a rivalry sort [00:58:10] of thing, but it’s just we you both have like a unique sense of [00:58:15] of where you can communicate with people. And I think that’s what the companies like for sure. [00:58:20] So yeah, I love I love doing that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: And you, I mean, you’ve been qualified. How long?

Yewande Oduwole: Four [00:58:25] years. 20.

Payman Langroudi: 20 I just feel like you’re so very connected in [00:58:30] four years.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, I was going to networking events as a student. Really? [00:58:35] I was a b, c d student rep. Oh. Were you? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I always tell those guys like that. [00:58:40] That is a good thing to be, man.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. Any students listening, be involved. Yeah. [00:58:45] You know, I signed up for RDP. They were doing student awards. It’s funny [00:58:50] because.

Payman Langroudi: When I was a student, I wasn’t involved in anything. Nothing. I almost stayed away from [00:58:55] everything. And now my my advice to all students is get involved in all these.

Yewande Oduwole: Things.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:59:00] you can see it. You know, I remember Simon Chard was the the BCD rep. Yeah. Yeah. And you can see what [00:59:05] that did for him. You know, like, by the way, he’s a great guy.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, when you [00:59:10] watch that trajectory of second year dental student to president of the BCD and all [00:59:15] the things that he’s managed to do, you just realise all getting jobs. Yeah, 100%. [00:59:20] It’s so important for getting jobs and it’s who you.

Yewande Oduwole: Surround yourself with. So from that I was able [00:59:25] to connect with different dentists, get an insight into what’s going on. Even one of my YouTube videos [00:59:30] that I put so much work into, I got 30 dentists together to give advice to [00:59:35] students, dentists from America, dentists from the UK, and from [00:59:40] that video alone it was able to reach so many people and I was that student. [00:59:45] I was annoying student. I’ll message them and be like, hi, can I get you my YouTube video? Can I talk to you about this? I’d [00:59:50] be on the case, and I think there’s a point where you can’t ignore that person. So even [00:59:55] like in my fourth year of dental school, I went to, I messaged Rhona, can I [01:00:00] shadow you at Chelsea? And she she had me there for during my year we made a YouTube video together. [01:00:05] Um, I wanted to just get involved. I’m [01:00:10] the kind of person where it’s like, If I’m in this profession, I go at it like all in. [01:00:15] Can’t be half hearted. So as a student, I’d be the annoying [01:00:20] student as well when I was recording videos to be on my YouTube.

Yewande Oduwole: I remember a lot of my [01:00:25] colleagues would look at me like, what’s she doing? Like, I almost felt embarrassed. The fact that I was vlogging [01:00:30] and doing all these things because nobody else was doing that. I almost [01:00:35] got in trouble. I actually got in trouble. One of the deans, um, took me to a side and said, oh, we see you’re doing this [01:00:40] video content because Dental schools there can be quite strict about obviously not [01:00:45] confidentiality. But after we had a talk about what I was actually doing it for, they [01:00:50] got it. Yeah. They realised actually she’s not doing anything. I [01:00:55] was in actual fact, I was building up the reputation of the uni and um, [01:01:00] so yeah, I think even though it’s not something normal, sometimes you’ve just got [01:01:05] to go against the grain And I believe in serendipity. Things. Good things [01:01:10] happen to you without you trying. Just putting yourself out there and just waiting for the opportunities [01:01:15] to come. Because if you don’t, you never know what will happen.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:01:20] you, you know, I struggle with, um, teeth whitening, [01:01:25] getting dentists to talk to their patients about teeth whitening.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:01:30] You’d be amazed. You’d be amazed the number of dentists who never do never mention it to [01:01:35] their patients. I know you use enlighten all that. What do you do to get [01:01:40] patients to go ahead with teeth whitening? Do you do you have a routine? Is it something in your examination [01:01:45] that mentions shade? Yes.

Yewande Oduwole: So I’ll take I’ll bring out my shade guide. Yeah. [01:01:50] And during the exam I’d actually take a shade of their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And [01:01:55] then mention it to them.

Yewande Oduwole: I’ll leave it on the side for them to look at. Because obviously [01:02:00] when you’re doing the check-up patients are listening. Yeah. So then at the end.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you say to your nurse [01:02:05] shade A3.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. So they’re like, oh what’s that? And then they see the shade [01:02:10] guide by their side and they’re like, oh, I heard you mention this colour, where am [01:02:15] I on that scale? And I said, okay, during your clinical examination you are this colour. And [01:02:20] then they’re asking me, oh, how can I get to this colour? Um, and I also asked them, are you happy [01:02:25] with the colour of your teeth at the moment? So if you don’t have the conversation as a dentist, you’re the only one [01:02:30] qualified to have this conversation with them. If someone from the street said, are you happy with the colour of your teeth, [01:02:35] it would be offensive. So when you’re when you’re in the in the check-up, the check-up is the most [01:02:40] important thing because they trust you and you’re not saying it in a way that [01:02:45] you need whitening. It’s just something you’ve observed. And from [01:02:50] there, that’s where a lot of patients actually, I would like to be whiter and and natural [01:02:55] white, I think is the most important thing, because I think people have this misconception about whitening [01:03:00] that you’re going to be like, have Simon Cowell, Rylan Clark. Teeth [01:03:05] whitening, especially a lot of older patients. They’re kind of whitening has this [01:03:10] stigma. So I think when you explain to them we’re just getting your teeth to how they were [01:03:15] when you were in your 20s.

Payman Langroudi: I found with older patients saying to them, it’s really [01:03:20] good for your gums. Mhm. Almost, almost gives them an excuse to go ahead. Like like [01:03:25] they, they want to go ahead. Right. But they can’t admit like they said older man. Yeah. Yeah. [01:03:30] Can’t admit to wanting a whiter smile. Can’t admit it because they.

Yewande Oduwole: Think it’s being [01:03:35] vain. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They can’t like looking vain in your 70s as a British guy. Just [01:03:40] doesn’t feel right. When I used to say to them. Oh, by the way, it’s good for [01:03:45] your gut. Oh, good for my gums. Suddenly that’s like. That’s something that can hang it on. And then. And then [01:03:50] they go for it. I never it’s funny, I never used to teach people to talk about the health benefits of [01:03:55] teeth whitening because it’s so obvious. Everyone wants white teeth. But there are nuances. There are times where [01:04:00] you should. And then I realised loads of people sell aligners, Invisalign and Ortho [01:04:05] based on health benefits, which is being like 100% [01:04:10] honest here. Like you wouldn’t go ahead with aligners if there wasn’t [01:04:15] an aesthetic benefit.

Yewande Oduwole: You’d be surprised there are patients.

Payman Langroudi: You as a patient, go [01:04:20] through the risk and time and cost of aligners to make your teeth easier [01:04:25] to brush, or whatever the hell they sell it on.

Yewande Oduwole: Obviously, if you’re if you’re if your teeth are, you know, crowded, [01:04:30] of course you want the aesthetic component, the.

Payman Langroudi: Aesthetic component, 80% of [01:04:35] it. And then but then there’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Functionality as well. I’ve had patients.

Payman Langroudi: 20% of functionality. But when I listen to dentists [01:04:40] talking to patients, yeah, the 20% is taking centre stage.

Yewande Oduwole: Because [01:04:45] people need a reason to justify it. You know.

Payman Langroudi: As dentists we love saying you need and we really [01:04:50] hate saying, would you like, you know, it’s part of our culture. [01:04:55] You need, you need, you need, you need, you need. And you know, as we’re saying that all day, Um, but [01:05:00] it’s funny when people tell me, oh, I don’t want to embarrass my patient. I get it. Yeah, yeah. But, [01:05:05] you know, every time you tell a patient you’re not brushing your teeth properly, you’re embarrassing the hell out of them. Yeah, [01:05:10] you’re embarrassing, but you.

Yewande Oduwole: Wouldn’t say it like. Like you’d. You’re there to educate [01:05:15] them at the end of the day. And I think a lot of people, when you talk about aligners, the functionality [01:05:20] part actually sells big part. No.

Payman Langroudi: Like it sells you [01:05:25] people can’t.

Yewande Oduwole: You know, there’s times where people’s occlusion doesn’t allow them to to eat properly. [01:05:30] Yeah. You get it, you get it. I get.

Payman Langroudi: It. Let’s let’s get on to the darker part of the of the pod. [01:05:35]

Yewande Oduwole: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about clinical mistakes so that we can all learn from [01:05:40] each other’s. It’s not often talked about, but what comes to mind [01:05:45] if I say clinical error or if I say most difficult patient? Like sometimes [01:05:50] those two things are the same thing sometimes. Pick whichever you like. [01:05:55]

Yewande Oduwole: The clinical error Was on the most difficult patient that [01:06:00] I’ve had. There you go. So it was a double whammy. I. It was. I [01:06:05] was two months in to my associate role. Two months. It [01:06:10] happened in that time. And I had just come off this wave of the whole, [01:06:15] um, adhesive dentistry bonding zirconia. Um, professor Marcus [01:06:20] Blatt’s talking about, you know, we can bond zirconia now. And this patient, they needed a bridge. [01:06:25] 3 to 3. Um, and usually people do conventional bridges [01:06:30] where they prep the threes. But I decided, oh, I now know how to bond. I’m going to bond [01:06:35] it. I’m going to do wings.

Payman Langroudi: Resin retained.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. From 3 to 3 which is [01:06:40] distance. It’s a distance. And it’s a big job um especially bonding [01:06:45] zirconia. But I had it was zirconia wing. Zirconia wing. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:06:50] heroics.

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. But obviously I’d spoken to Rajeev about [01:06:55] this and he, he said, yeah, you can do it. So I was like, feeling confident. Yeah, I can do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um, prep. [01:07:00]

Yewande Oduwole: Prep plus, prep plus.

Payman Langroudi: Go on then.

Yewande Oduwole: So I went through my protocol, [01:07:05] you know, all the steps, bonded it, and [01:07:10] it was great for a few months. It was it was fantastic. It stayed on. And then [01:07:15] I get a call and she said, she calls in like my [01:07:20] bridge is broken. And I literally my head, I was thinking, oh my gosh, I’ve done all the bonding, what’s gone wrong? [01:07:25] And when she came in, it had actually broken on the connector [01:07:30] part. So my wings were actually still stuck on, but the connector part had snapped. And [01:07:35] I remember obviously it’s her front teeth, so she was fuming. And this is where [01:07:40] patient management really had to come in. I was literally like managing her [01:07:45] like trying to calm her down. And I had to speak to the lab because [01:07:50] I was like, why is it broken? Because I was like, clearly my my wings are still on. It must be something to do with [01:07:55] the the.

Payman Langroudi: Flex, right? Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: So then they made another one.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:08:00] went resin retained again?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah. Okay. Because we [01:08:05] didn’t want to prep the threes. So we made another one and it [01:08:10] broke again. That lasted you know a few months again it was like a year or so. And [01:08:15] then it broke again. And then that’s when we had to look into occlusion. And that’s when I was like, oh she [01:08:20] hasn’t got enough posterior support, which is why this part of the bridge keeps on breaking. [01:08:25] Yeah. So obviously I spoke to Rajiv about it and we really delved into it. [01:08:30] And I think if I went back and did that again, I would not have suggested that I would have told her to [01:08:35] get her posterior occlusion better before we went on to doing that bridge. I think I [01:08:40] just got really excited. You know, when you learn something new and you’re just like, I’m gonna try it out. Got [01:08:45] excited. But, you know, one.

Payman Langroudi: One big learning point from that era. Yeah. Is when something [01:08:50] breaks, your first point of call shouldn’t be the lab to say why did [01:08:55] it break? Your first point of.

Yewande Oduwole: Call should be.

Payman Langroudi: Occlusion.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff breaks due to [01:09:00] occlusion. Yeah, I’m sure once in a while, stuff breaks because the lab puts a crack in something or whatever. [01:09:05] But the vast majority of stuff breaks due to occlusion, and so occlusion is the first place to look.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. [01:09:10] But when that happens to you, you’re looking for like, oh my gosh, yeah, it wasn’t me. But I’ve learned [01:09:15] so much now.

Payman Langroudi: Now to what ended up happening in that case. Then you did the posterior support. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: So we she [01:09:20] now, you know, had posterior support and you know she’s she’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Now and a conventional bridge or [01:09:25] you’d still resin bonding.

Yewande Oduwole: The bond is still bonded. The wings are still on there. It’s [01:09:30] literally the reason why it kept on breaking was because of her occlusion. So now she knows she needs that posterior support. [01:09:35] What are you doing?

Payman Langroudi: Like drilling off the zirconia wing to make a new one?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah, so [01:09:40] a nightmare. I know, so the bonding worked, thank God, but it was just the occlusion that failed. So [01:09:45] biggest lesson? That’s where everything starts from. Occlusion.

Payman Langroudi: The patient say, were they pissed off? [01:09:50] Of course.

Yewande Oduwole: She was.

Payman Langroudi: Did she have to spend more money to get the back?

Yewande Oduwole: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:09:55] was she cool with that?

Yewande Oduwole: Of course not.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you work it out?

Yewande Oduwole: I [01:10:00] had to. This is where Rajiv stepped in. We spoke to her together. [01:10:05] Yeah. Um. And that’s where I think, because I had built a good relationship with her [01:10:10] in the beginning. She trusted me. And I think she could see that I genuinely [01:10:15] wanted to do the best thing for her. And patients don’t sue dentists [01:10:20] they like. Yeah. So I think that’s key. She liked me enough not to to [01:10:25] go down that route. Um, and obviously you stepped in and we were able to get her to [01:10:30] come to an understanding where she realises [01:10:35] that, oh, okay, this is a problem that I need to sort out with my back [01:10:40] teeth. I think we take a lot of ownership for patients problems and we make it [01:10:45] our issue. But it’s important to explain that okay. So due to obviously [01:10:50] you’ve lost these back teeth, we need to get it back to function. She understood that. So yeah [01:10:55] with the help of communication and getting things right, it’s all good. But I remember oh my gosh, for that to [01:11:00] happen in your first few months, it was really it was really big.

Payman Langroudi: Was there a call [01:11:05] to the defence.

Yewande Oduwole: No that I’ve never had touch wood. I don’t even want [01:11:10] to say it now. No, nothing like that has ever happened. But I think it’s because of the [01:11:15] patients can really see that I am trying my absolute hardest for them. [01:11:20] And I think as a patient you can sense that.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a mixed practice. Yeah. [01:11:25] Yeah. So that’s the thing with with private you have time to make that connection. [01:11:30] Whereas in mixed sometimes you haven’t got time, you know, and you’re doing [01:11:35] your very best. And I mean in this situation you could have easily have recommended a fixed fixed bridge. Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: But [01:11:40] I was trying to be conservative, be conservative.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, there’s almost like this question of should [01:11:45] you have communicated the fact that you were trying to be conservative. Like, for instance, back to that [01:11:50] question about looking confident. Yeah. In that situation, you can say, look confident, [01:11:55] say, I’m going to do this for you and it’s going to be okay. Or you can say, [01:12:00] I want to do this to you because for you, because I don’t want to drill your teeth, but I’m taking a risk [01:12:05] here. You know, sort of taking this risk. We’re taking this risk together.

Yewande Oduwole: 100%. [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. Like, if if it was framed that way, maybe she wouldn’t have been this pissed off. [01:12:15] Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: And I’ve learned. Now.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s your choice. Like, it’s almost like that, you know. Do [01:12:20] you want. Do you want us to to do this or do you want us to go the other route? You know, like, it’s an interesting [01:12:25] point.

Yewande Oduwole: It shaped the way I discuss risks now. And I will always make sure that [01:12:30] if I know there’s even a chance of this not lasting or going wrong, I will make it absolutely [01:12:35] clear. And after that, I had a patient where she wanted to save her [01:12:40] tooth with, um, an endo. I told her, you know, it may fail, and she had [01:12:45] some perio, but she still wanted to save this tooth, so I did it for her. Eventually it did fail, but she was happy because [01:12:50] she was like, oh, you told me that and I need to sort my gums out. But at the time she wanted [01:12:55] to save this too. So I think now that’s really helped me with my communication before it happens [01:13:00] rather than explaining. Because if you explain at the end it’s an excuse rather [01:13:05] than explaining in the beginning. So come to.

Payman Langroudi: The end of our time, crazily. [01:13:10]

Yewande Oduwole: That went really quickly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I’m going to end it with the usual questions. Um, [01:13:15] fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? [01:13:20]

Yewande Oduwole: Mhm. So the first person would be [01:13:25] you probably won’t like this answer, but it’s going to be Jesus Christ. Well, no, because I [01:13:30] know at the beginning you said about the faith, but I think because of how much faith has shaped [01:13:35] my life, I really want to sit down and just ask questions about Christ. Yes. [01:13:40] Love. Forgiveness. Um, just get getting insight into how [01:13:45] Jesus lived his life.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Yewande Oduwole: Um. Second would be Doctor [01:13:50] Uchenna Okoye.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Yeah.

Yewande Oduwole: Because one.

Payman Langroudi: Of my favourites.

Yewande Oduwole: One [01:13:55] of the last things we said we’d always talk back and forth on Instagram. Yeah. But [01:14:00] she said we’re going to meet up one day for dinner. And she would always be, you know, following [01:14:05] my journey, praising what I’ve been getting up to. And I’d be praising her. But we never got a chance to [01:14:10] have that dinner. So I’d love to just sit down with her and just speak about [01:14:15] her experiences as a black female dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:20] I used to have dinners with each other.

Yewande Oduwole: Really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the third.

Yewande Oduwole: Third [01:14:25] would either be. I couldn’t pick [01:14:30] but Michelle Obama or Viola Davis. Viola Davis. So [01:14:35] she is an actress. She is, um, a very powerful [01:14:40] woman that she’s gone through a lot of adversities in her life, but she’s she’s made it in the [01:14:45] acting scene, and she’s one of those people that I know if I was to [01:14:50] sit with her, I’ll leave feeling like ten times better about myself and just the confidence [01:14:55] that she exudes, and I love that. Um, I think the [01:15:00] difference. So the last thing I want to say, actually, the difference between smart [01:15:05] people and bold people, is that bold people, they see the glass as [01:15:10] like half full. And if I think the secret to getting everything you want in life is just [01:15:15] to be bold. Smart people will think, oh, what could go wrong? But bold [01:15:20] people will say, well, what could go right? And I think that’s how I’ve tried to live [01:15:25] my life. Just being bold, even when I don’t feel like it.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the black [01:15:30] Dental network event. That’s.

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, yeah. So we’re having a conference. [01:15:35] Um, next year. Um, black Dental network was founded in 2022. [01:15:40] I run the Instagram page with Doctor Arnold. Um, and [01:15:45] we basically we’ve created a group to fill this gap with [01:15:50] the representation of the lack of sort of black. Less than 2% of dentists in [01:15:55] the UK are black. So going back to what I was talking about, the representation. So we have this [01:16:00] conference that we hold every year between April and May. Um, Chris Hall came to the [01:16:05] last one. He was a speaker and Martin Wayne Dyer as well. So, um, [01:16:10] we’d love for you know, you don’t have to be black to come. Please come support. And it’s just [01:16:15] about bringing everyone together and representation.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the page called? Black Dental.

Yewande Oduwole: Dental network? [01:16:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And were you one of the co-founders of it?

Yewande Oduwole: Oh, so no, doctor Jamie and [01:16:25] Toyin founded it, but we’re I’m part of the the lead, the core group where we delegate [01:16:30] roles. And it’s all non-for-profit. We just do it because we want more representation [01:16:35] in the dental field. So yeah, everyone can feel free to get involved.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:16:40] It’s been lovely talking to you. It really has. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you. And [01:16:45] I feel like we could have kept going for a long time, but I.

Yewande Oduwole: Know the time.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Yewande Oduwole: Gone by so [01:16:50] quickly. Thank you so much for having me.

Payman Langroudi: For coming all the way here.

[VOICE]: This [01:16:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:17:00] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:17:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:17:10] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:17:15] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:17:20] and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did [01:17:25] get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this [01:17:30] with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:17:35]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders [00:00:35] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:00:40] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: One [00:00:50] of the loveliest things about my job is that I sometimes get to [00:00:55] meet my heroes. And my guest today is one of my dental business heroes who I’ve been watching [00:01:00] from afar for a long, long, long time. But I had the privilege to meet Anushka. Anushka? [00:01:05] Do people your friends call you Anushka or nurse?

Anushika Brogan: Nurse. Nurse. Nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Anushka. But. [00:01:10] Nurse. Um. Recently. Um. Nurse is one of the [00:01:15] only female owners of a big group of practices. 35 practices now mirror [00:01:20] 242. Already 42. Oh my goodness. The mirror Dental Studios, [00:01:25] which people will find all around the south of the UK. Have you moved [00:01:30] it around further than the south?

Anushika Brogan: So we’ve got one in Stafford, went up, came [00:01:35] back down again and then we’ve got one in Suffolk and two in Norfolk. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Now the rest around the south east.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, the rest. The rest are around the south east.

Payman Langroudi: Mother of three, which is [00:01:45] just extraordinary when I think about that, that you’ve achieved that and three [00:01:50] kids at the same time. Uh, massive Dirty Dancing fan I’ve heard. [00:01:55] How do I know so much about you? Well, because you were on a different pod. One of my favourites, the one in the chair [00:02:00] and two waiting with Haitham and Stuart. Yes. Um, [00:02:05] and I would. I would encourage everyone to listen to that pod. Um, today I kind of want to get behind [00:02:10] the sort of persona. Although I notice one thing about you, Anushka. You’re [00:02:15] kind of a bit under the radar. Bearing in mind what you’ve achieved, [00:02:20] you don’t put yourself out there as that person. Is that on purpose or by mistake? [00:02:25]

Anushika Brogan: Too busy working, is it? Yeah. Up until now, like until recently, [00:02:30] I’ve always been too busy working. So, you know, between working and the children, you [00:02:35] know, that’s been my life. Really. Like, you know, I’ve got I’ve got a lot of friends. So in [00:02:40] my free time, I really like to spend time with my friends and my family. Yeah. But, yeah, [00:02:45] I haven’t really had time to. I know a lot of people go and socialise a lot and, you know, within [00:02:50] network, within the circles. But for me, my family always came first. Well, I mean, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Very well known [00:02:55] in DSO So circles, right? Because of that association of Dental groups that you’ve headed up? Yes. [00:03:00] Did you start that as well?

Anushika Brogan: No no no no no no no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were a director of it for a while.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [00:03:05] I’ve been director for two years now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so in those circles you’re very, very well known. [00:03:10] But in the general Dental, you just haven’t had time. You know, I guess you’re not a big social media person, [00:03:15] is that? Maybe that’s the.

Anushika Brogan: No, not not particularly. No, I don’t kind of, you know, put myself out on social [00:03:20] media so much so, so.

Payman Langroudi: This port it kind of goes, starts off generally with a backstory and all that. [00:03:25] But I tend to have sometimes a burning question that I want to just ask and, you know, go for it. My ADHD [00:03:30] side won’t let me relax until I’ve asked that question, right? What do you think is the difference [00:03:35] between a dentist who opens 1 or 2 practices and the dentist who [00:03:40] opens 30 or 40, and the one who then goes fully [00:03:45] corporate 300 or 400. Like, what is it about you? I mean, you, [00:03:50] when I listened to the previous pod, you made it sound very, very simple. Like, oh, the first [00:03:55] one started paying for itself. So I got another one. Got another one. But if that’s the case, why isn’t everyone [00:04:00] opening 35?

Anushika Brogan: I always knew that to run a corporate. Did you? Yeah. From the beginning. From the beginning, [00:04:05] I always knew I wanted to run a corporate. And my first job, um, when [00:04:10] I was doing my training, I actually asked the lady because [00:04:15] she she. It was a female practice owner, which was rare back then. And I [00:04:20] said to her, I want to own a group of practices. And there was a gentleman called, if I remember right, [00:04:25] Asif or Arif Lakhani. And he had a few practices back then and, um, [00:04:30] he kept saying, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth buying multiple practices. And the [00:04:35] business.

Payman Langroudi: Model he thought, doesn’t.

Anushika Brogan: Work. Yeah. And and I just thought, I don’t believe you. [00:04:40] I think it works. And then my second job, I went and worked for somebody who had multiple practices [00:04:45] and had made it work quite well and.

Payman Langroudi: Paid attention to what he was up.

Anushika Brogan: To. Yes. That’s right. [00:04:50] And, you know, like it was inspiring for me because actually that that was kind of what I wanted [00:04:55] to do. Yeah. And so.

Payman Langroudi: What were the lessons you, those early lessons you learned about. [00:05:00]

Anushika Brogan: That? I suppose staff management, I suppose staff management was quite, [00:05:05] um, key to how good and bad I [00:05:10] think. You know, I think Norine, who I worked for first, had really tight control of her [00:05:15] staff, and the second guy didn’t so much. He was a bit more chilled, but actually the the staff [00:05:20] really liked him. But versus like, you know, the staff that worked for Norine, they respected [00:05:25] her. But it was it was difficult because it was a much stricter environment. [00:05:30] And it kind of really, you know, it teaches you what kind of leader you want to be. Yeah. In terms [00:05:35] of actually, you can’t let them get away with murder, but equally, you kind of want to land in [00:05:40] the middle somewhere, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: I think as a dentist, one of the things about being a dentist is about being a perfectionist. [00:05:45] Yeah. And then because you’re doing this perfect mod, you [00:05:50] reckon you’re going to have to be completely in control, micromanage every aspect [00:05:55] of your business as well. And that’s the biggest sort of one of the things that stops people [00:06:00] growing because, like you say, you’re not going to run six practices, let alone 42, [00:06:05] by managing a bit.

Anushika Brogan: Of a 80 over 20 kind of girl like, you know, I just think you have to my, [00:06:10] my dad, um, my parents owned, owned a couple of shops, and [00:06:15] my dad was really chill and my mum was really strict.

Payman Langroudi: And so you could see the difference.

Anushika Brogan: You can see the difference, [00:06:20] right? Like, you know, actually, my dad probably used to lose a lot of stock to his [00:06:25] staff. And, you know, my mum just wouldn’t she’d have everything absolutely perfect and really organised and things [00:06:30] and you kind of see the two different styles of leadership. And actually people don’t really [00:06:35] enjoy working when it’s too strict. I feel for sure. I think that you have to let them [00:06:40] just autonomy. Yeah. Have a little bit of autonomy and, and have like, you know, their own authenticity. [00:06:45] So I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you fall on working from home. Do you [00:06:50] like that or not at all?

Anushika Brogan: Uh. Mostly not. Mostly. I like to be in the [00:06:55] office once in a while.

Payman Langroudi: For your team? I mean, like, if you had a team member of [00:07:00] staff who’s who’s back office, like, doesn’t meet patients. Can they be working from home or. You don’t [00:07:05] like.

Anushika Brogan: That? I’m not. I’m not a big fan of working from home. So there’s an.

Payman Langroudi: Aspect of you that does like [00:07:10] to check on like to that extent. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, yeah. But I think also when people are [00:07:15] working around you, you work harder.

Payman Langroudi: Or not or not. Yeah or.

Anushika Brogan: Not. [00:07:20] It depends on on the atmosphere. And we’ve had various times even in our support office where [00:07:25] it’s been too chatty. You know, you’re just like come on guys. Like, you know, I’m paying you a salary to do a job [00:07:30] and you’re spending half the day talking. Nah, that’s not okay. You know, it happens from time [00:07:35] to time, but equally, you want them to get on. So. Yeah. Yeah. But for me, I don’t I don’t tend to [00:07:40] go to them and say, you know like stop talking. [00:07:45] I’ll change their job role because I think they’re not busy enough. And I would do it that way, you [00:07:50] know. So I would I would kind of manage it that way rather than go for them, because that’s not my personality [00:07:55] at all.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like confrontation?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I don’t mind confrontation. [00:08:00] If it’s necessary. If it’s necessary, bring it. You know, I’ll have [00:08:05] a fight with anybody. You don’t think you can.

Payman Langroudi: Get the best out of people?

Anushika Brogan: I don’t think you get the best out of people when you’re confrontational. I [00:08:10] think having a sit down with them and just having a chat with them and just going, right, I’m going to change things around [00:08:15] a little bit or what’s not working. What is working is a better way.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say that’s your superpower, [00:08:20] like getting the most out of people? Yeah. Really? Yes.

Anushika Brogan: I’m really empathetic. [00:08:25] And people I think I’m quite relatable. Yeah. Um, [00:08:30] and try and be nice to people. And it really works. It really works [00:08:35] because there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Quite a lot of hats you have to wear as the owner of multiple practices. Right. And for [00:08:40] me, like, one thing I hate in my life is building works. You know, like I’ve had to [00:08:45] do it right, But I hate my life during that period of building works. Because I don’t know. Because I [00:08:50] don’t understand it myself. I feel like I’m getting ripped off.

Anushika Brogan: Also, your ADHD because you don’t like chaos, right? [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: True, true. Um, but what I’m saying is one of the hats. If you want to own 42 practices, [00:09:00] one of your hats is you’ve got to be a property developer. Yeah. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. Yeah. You got to be completely comfortable [00:09:05] as a property developer. You have to have a team of builders constantly doing places up. Yep. Turning a [00:09:10] three surgery practice into a seven surgery practice. That’s the way to to to make that business work, right? Definitely. [00:09:15] But that’s only one of your hats. Yes. Because I’ve got a friend who’s a property developer, and he. You know, he’s not [00:09:20] the most personable guy around here. Now, now, your other hat is [00:09:25] someone who inspires employees, which is everyone other [00:09:30] than the self-employed ones. Yes. And then you’ve got this hat. The clinical kind of [00:09:35] hat, which is, you know, a whole nother skill.

Anushika Brogan: And actually managing dentists is [00:09:40] completely different to managing team members.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Anushika Brogan: Absolutely totally different. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: And let’s not forget government tendering, [00:09:50] association of Dental groups. Like all that whole side that you’ve gone into. [00:09:55] Let’s not forget finance. Right. Persuading people to lend you money. [00:10:00] And then in your world, like, you know, in my world, I’m looking at, um, I don’t know, Invisalign [00:10:05] as my dream, sort of. Or those cats from Australia. Um. Hi. [00:10:10] Smile. Yes. Like the two, 221 year old kids are destroying me [00:10:15] in the business world. Yeah. So in your world, you must be looking at private equity. [00:10:20] Can 42 be 420?

Anushika Brogan: So I’ve done that whole journey already. [00:10:25] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying there’s a lot of hats. Yeah, it’s a lot of hats.

Anushika Brogan: You have to learn really quickly. Yeah. [00:10:30] So. So a few years ago, I almost sold to private equity, and then I backed out at the very last minute. [00:10:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the thing that, like, the.

Anushika Brogan: I just started [00:10:40] having sleepless nights about not having any control over my life. And, you know, I [00:10:45] just I don’t like being told what to do. I don’t I haven’t since I was a child. I don’t, [00:10:50] I don’t like I don’t like being told what to do. You know, I’ve only ever interviewed for jobs twice. [00:10:55] So, you know, I just don’t I don’t think I would do very well with someone [00:11:00] scrutinising me constantly. I think that would demotivate me completely. And, [00:11:05] um, I just decided that it wasn’t for me.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:11:10] you ruled it out forever or. Yes. Not necessarily.

Anushika Brogan: No, I’ve ruled it out forever.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. It’s completely [00:11:15] off my radar. It’s not happening.

Payman Langroudi: Surely there’s a deal there that says, hey, don’t just leave me completely alone. [00:11:20] Take £1 million less and say, leave me completely alone. I can work from wherever I like and do whatever [00:11:25] I want. No, no, no.

Anushika Brogan: There is, there is, there is no, no money for money. There’s no [00:11:30] amount of money that would persuade me to do a deal, no amount of money.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:11:35] that’s so interesting. Is it because you love your life so much right now? Yeah. Is that the reason? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I’m [00:11:40] really happy, and I actually think that I’m building a legacy for my children, [00:11:45] and whether they decide to work in the business or not is absolutely fine. They’ve made noises about [00:11:50] it at some point, but if they do, great. If they don’t, also great. I [00:11:55] will put structure in place so that the business continue to run. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:12:00] they have they said they want to.

Anushika Brogan: At various points. Yes. My two boys. Because my [00:12:05] little one’s little. How old is she. She’s eight.

Payman Langroudi: Oh and how old are your boys?

Anushika Brogan: My eldest is 22 [00:12:10] and my middle one is turning 19 next month.

Payman Langroudi: Your eldest [00:12:15] studied law and is an amazing singer. Yes. I noticed on TikTok. [00:12:20]

Anushika Brogan: Yes. He is.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing voice.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, he’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Your middle one is in dental school? [00:12:25]

Anushika Brogan: Yes, he’s just started Madrid.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, Madrid. Really? Yeah. I’ve got a friend in Madrid. The one outside Madrid. [00:12:30]

Anushika Brogan: Um, okay. Yeah. Just outside.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah. And your youngest? You don’t know nothing. [00:12:35]

Anushika Brogan: She wants to be a dog walker. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So it could be. It could be. Your sons [00:12:40] end up bringing in private equity or whatever. You know, that could happen.

Anushika Brogan: I don’t I don’t think they will. I [00:12:45] don’t think they will. But they I mean, when it when it’s theirs, it’s up to them what they do with it. [00:12:50] I, you know, when it’s my life, I want to be in control of my life.

Payman Langroudi: So listen, [00:12:55] I don’t want it to be negative. Right? But I do want to hear the other side of of of the story [00:13:00] as well. Yeah. Because it’s all well and good right now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:13:05] I mean, we there’s no business owner that does a new thing [00:13:10] and doesn’t sacrifice during that process. Like for me, the way [00:13:15] I would think of it is we’re bringing out Desensitiser pen next week, right? Just that little pen has [00:13:20] caused me all sorts of sacrifices. I missed the birthday party, whatever. Yeah, yeah, it’s a pen. Yeah. [00:13:25] With you, every single practice purchase is a product in the end, right? Yeah. What [00:13:30] have been the sacrifices that you’ve made to get to where you’ve gotten to?

Anushika Brogan: I’m still making [00:13:35] sacrifices constantly. So the deal we’ve just done seven practices. [00:13:40] We bought them in July.

Payman Langroudi: All in one go.

Anushika Brogan: July to August. Yeah. And it was it was [00:13:45] a company that went bankrupt. Yeah. And we just it just came on my radar. [00:13:50] I jumped on it. I put an offer in within a week. I was buying the practices. [00:13:55] Wow. And honestly, I think it was the 20 something [00:14:00] of July and I was going on holiday, our like, family holiday where [00:14:05] my sons just graduated. My other one’s just about to go to Madrid, and I’ve been [00:14:10] working constantly for like, you know, quite a few months and it’s our time to spend together [00:14:15] and it’s a week away from completion. So, um, on I think [00:14:20] we were going on my, my ten year anniversary, and during that lunch [00:14:25] I was signing some of the papers. Okay. And then [00:14:30] and then when we went on holiday, everyone was sleeping. They all thought I was asleep, and [00:14:35] I was awake in the middle of the night, doing all my work so that I could spend family time with them. It’s [00:14:40] part of the sacrifice, right? This is what I want to do. But I’m not going to interfere with my time. [00:14:45] My family time is important that that is boxed off as in like. And [00:14:50] they feel prioritised because otherwise they’ll always feel like they’re second best. And I don’t want that to be the case. Yeah. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you know, children of business owners know that sometimes business comes first. Sometimes it does, sometimes [00:15:00] it. Be honest about that. Right.

Anushika Brogan: Sometimes it does come first. And and my, my kids are realists. Right. [00:15:05] They’ve seen, um, both myself and my ex-husband both have businesses. Both have [00:15:10] to work hard. Both have to do all of that. I am so fortunate. Now I’ve got the most amazing husband [00:15:15] who is really, really supportive of.

Payman Langroudi: Is he involved as well?

[TRANSITION]: No, not at [00:15:20] all.

Anushika Brogan: And it’s better that way because he totally separates things and keeps [00:15:25] everything calm so that when it’s chaotic, for me, it doesn’t impact on the children [00:15:30] at all. They’ve always got that stability, which is really important.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did the mirror [00:15:35] go, or how many practices did you have when you first broke up with your first husband? [00:15:40]

Anushika Brogan: So, um, I had nine. And [00:15:45] then during our divorce, I won a tender for another 3 or 4. [00:15:50] So it just kind of maybe it was eight, I think it was eight. And then I got 12, and [00:15:55] then I ended up with six with nine in the end. Oh.

[TRANSITION]: With nine?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I ended up with nine at the end of my divorce. [00:16:00]

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Anushika Brogan: So but it.

Payman Langroudi: Was I listened to your story. You said you bought your first one [00:16:05] when your son, who’s just qualified as a lawyer, was nine months [00:16:10] old.

[TRANSITION]: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I was rewinding and saying, well, that means that you were looking at it when you [00:16:15] were nine months pregnant.

Anushika Brogan: I know I was looking at it when I just got pregnant and didn’t know I was. [00:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: There you go.

[TRANSITION]: There you go.

Anushika Brogan: Because it takes six months or so, doesn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking that level of [00:16:25] that level of, you know, call it what you like, right? Risk taking or whatever it is. Like most people, [00:16:30] pregnancy that becomes a thing in itself. But you were there buying that first practice. [00:16:35]

Anushika Brogan: I had to. I had motivation behind me. I was living with my ex in-laws and I didn’t like [00:16:40] it, and I wanted to get out, and I, um, I couldn’t decide whether [00:16:45] to buy a practice or a house. And so, um, I actually went to see a [00:16:50] clairvoyant of all things, and the clairvoyant said, buy a practice, so I did. [00:16:55] That’s what you do when you’re 23. 24? [00:17:00] Yeah. Just no guidance. Just like I don’t know what to do.

Payman Langroudi: And then. Okay. And then [00:17:05] you very quickly paid that practice off.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So what, you paid off [00:17:10] more than you had to.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you quickly learnt how to run a dental practice. [00:17:15]

Anushika Brogan: Yes. It was a steep learning curve. But you know, back then there wasn’t all the regulation [00:17:20] and all the, you know, nowadays, I mean, you had an NHS inspection, a guy came round, you gave him a cup [00:17:25] of coffee and he was like, oh, put a sign here and do this and you’ll be fine. That was it. Yeah. It was really easy. [00:17:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what are you referring to? Things like CQC and all that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of the day, I [00:17:35] don’t think the difference between successful practice and, you know, not so successful practice is [00:17:40] how they execute on CQC. I mean the learning on how to make this place work and [00:17:45] work without you in it in such a short period of time.

[TRANSITION]: I think that’s. [00:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: A real skill.

[TRANSITION]: I think the.

Anushika Brogan: Difficulty is now that because of those things and the [00:17:55] like, you know, it is harder. It’s like, you know, with your first practice back then, all I had to focus [00:18:00] on was being a dentist myself, making sure my staff were paid, making sure everything was clean and disinfected. [00:18:05]

[TRANSITION]: That was it.

Anushika Brogan: Now you have to jump through so many [00:18:10] hoops, so it is much harder to be a practice owner, a single practice owner now. And [00:18:15] I think that, you know, I remember back then thinking that our property used to be so [00:18:20] cheap. It used to be so like, you know, you used to be able to do this, but actually you’re right that [00:18:25] it is just mind over matter, that if you are that determined that you want to do something, [00:18:30] you can do it. And I think it’s about having that motivation and determination and just [00:18:35] saying, that’s my goal. I’m going to get there and then you can achieve it.

Payman Langroudi: For how long? [00:18:40] Or maybe you’re going to tell me you’re still doing it right. For how long were you sinking every single dollar [00:18:45] back into the business? It must have been years and years and years and years to grow at this rate.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I mean, I still still [00:18:50] are.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I don’t take I just take a dividend. That’s it. Mostly [00:18:55] everything goes back into the business.

[TRANSITION]: It’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Man. It’s interesting [00:19:00] because it takes a certain person to do that. Here you’re saying you don’t want to sell it [00:19:05] either? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: What am I doing with my life?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Listen, by the way, there’s [00:19:10] nothing wrong with building something, right? For the sake of building something, it’s a beautiful thing. Like I’m [00:19:15] building this podcast for the sake of building this. You know, I’m not gaining massively from doing this podcast. I’m enjoying [00:19:20] doing this podcast. I’m doing this podcast. But what is the driver? Like, what is that driver like?

[TRANSITION]: That [00:19:25] competitive spirit.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got a really clear life goal. So when I was [00:19:30] younger, I really wanted to travel and my dad always said to me, no, because if you come out of education, [00:19:35] it’s really difficult to get back in. It’s really difficult to focus again. Blah, blah, blah. So he was [00:19:40] always like, get your education out of the way. Then when I got my education out of the way, then you start working, then you see money, then [00:19:45] like it just doesn’t happen, does it? So and I’ve hardly travelled, to be honest, I’ve hardly [00:19:50] travelled.

Payman Langroudi: Back to that sacrifice. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Right. So. And for me, I, I’ve [00:19:55] always wanted to get to 50 practices. Okay.

[TRANSITION]: Just just a number. You just made up just because.

Anushika Brogan: Just [00:20:00] because that’s what I’ve always wanted to do. Yeah. And and actually my goals have changed over the [00:20:05] years because I can remember when I used to write a diary and in my diary, [00:20:10] I wrote, all I want to be able to do is send my children to private school, have a nice big house, [00:20:15] have nice cars. That was it. That was the goal. Then the goal changed to oh, I want ten [00:20:20] practices. Then the goal changed to I want 25 practices. Now it’s 50, but I feel like [00:20:25] 50 is achievable. Very.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And I feel like I feel like [00:20:30] I have done my life’s work in that. And then I want to pay off all my debt, because [00:20:35] obviously you have to leverage yourself. And then I want to take a big fat dividend out, and [00:20:40] then I want to go travelling so I know what I want to do.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s your time frame [00:20:45] you’ve put on that? Like what’s your.

[TRANSITION]: Ideal?

Anushika Brogan: Um, so my daughters. Yeah. Um, eight. Yeah. So I kind [00:20:50] of think another 10 to 12 years so that she’s settled at university, my eldest [00:20:55] children will be older so that they’re in the country or they’re around so that they can take care of her if I’m not here. [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: I like that level of, you know, like ten year planning ahead.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I’ve always been a ten [00:21:05] year. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So and again, listening to your other conversations, like, massively organised [00:21:10] like sort of zoning family time with work [00:21:15] time and all of that. You’ve always been that cat to I.

Anushika Brogan: I hate [00:21:20] cat like when it’s not structured. I have a very structured life. So I know on a Monday [00:21:25] I have certain meetings in my diary every Monday. I exercise in a certain [00:21:30] way. On a Monday I eat like certain I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Quite 4 a.m.. Yeah, you answered.

Payman Langroudi: My text [00:21:35] at 4:30 a.m.. Yeah, I sent at like 2:30 a.m. before I’d gone to bed.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:21:40] So what time do you go to bed?

Anushika Brogan: I go to bed normally around ten, like 930, ten.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:21:45] wake up at 4 a.m..

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 1112, one two, three four. Five hours.

[TRANSITION]: Sleep.

Anushika Brogan: Six. [00:21:50] I aim for six. I aim for six. My husband kills me because he’s read that Matthew Walker book.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Each [00:21:55] hour. So like.

[TRANSITION]: He said, you’re.

Anushika Brogan: Gonna get a dementia. [00:22:00] Yeah. I don’t want you to get dementia. Go to sleep. I’m like, okay.

[TRANSITION]: So you get.

Payman Langroudi: Up at [00:22:05] 4 a.m. and.

[TRANSITION]: Run. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So. So on a Monday.

[TRANSITION]: Darkness.

Anushika Brogan: In the no. So Monday, Wednesday and [00:22:10] Friday, my husband and I run.

[TRANSITION]: Together at 4 a.m.. Yeah. Poor guy. No, no.

Anushika Brogan: He’s [00:22:15] a he’s a personal trainer. So he’s he’s down for it. So he’s happy. He hasn’t always run with me [00:22:20] but I like running and he likes weights. So we’ve kind of compromised in the middle a little bit. Yeah. [00:22:25] So, um. Yeah. So we run together and that’s how we have our catch up. Because normally by the time I get home [00:22:30] from work, I am zonked. By the time I’ve spoken to the kids and everything, there’s nothing left.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start there. What [00:22:35] time do you walk in?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I it depends on the day. Generally around six. [00:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: And you’re in bed by nine.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So I walk in, dinner’s on the table, [00:22:45] so I always get home, have dinner, and then he’s cooked.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. He cooks. Yeah. [00:22:50] He cooks.

Anushika Brogan: So I’m so lucky.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t like.

Anushika Brogan: Cooking, so.

[TRANSITION]: It’s great [00:22:55] for me now. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, I can cook because, you know, um, brought up cooking, [00:23:00] but I’m not a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: So. So. Okay. Then dinner, then you’ve got basically one hour of, like, [00:23:05] me time, which isn’t even me time. Right?

[TRANSITION]: It’s with everyone much me time.

Payman Langroudi: So your me time [00:23:10] is while you’re running.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like everyone needs me time somewhere.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, I tend [00:23:15] to, I tend to have. So I’ve, like, started listening to audiobooks now, like, you know, all of that [00:23:20] kind of thing is just like where I have a bit of me time.

[TRANSITION]: All right, so then 5:00.

Anushika Brogan: So then so then [00:23:25] we basically. So we wake up around four, we start running about 440. Yeah. And [00:23:30] and then he runs a boot camp. So we carry on running till about 540 roughly. [00:23:35] And then I do boot camp 6 to 645.

[TRANSITION]: As well as well. Okay.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. [00:23:40] And then, um, we’re back 645 ish back at home. See the [00:23:45] kids just for 20 minutes or so and then jump in the shower, and I’m at my desk by 8:00.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:23:50] your desk is at head office.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Head office.

Anushika Brogan: Which is 15.

[TRANSITION]: Minutes, 15.

Anushika Brogan: Minutes away from home. [00:23:55]

Payman Langroudi: Wow. And then what’s your typical day? Lots of meetings.

Anushika Brogan: Monday. Mondays [00:24:00] are generally meetings day, so I’m in and out.

[TRANSITION]: Of meetings all.

Anushika Brogan: Day long. All day [00:24:05] long, um, interviews, meetings, whatever needs doing and just catching up with.

Payman Langroudi: But give [00:24:10] me a flavour of that. Is it like the area managers, the dentists?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Anushika Brogan: So I don’t I don’t catch up with the area [00:24:15] manager. Area managers are out in practice on a Monday. Okay. So I tend to have like head office is meeting. So I meet with [00:24:20] my central ops team and my marketing team. I meet with senior [00:24:25] leadership team and then. Yeah, so any suppliers we have in the afternoon. [00:24:30] So um, that type of thing. And then just general work that’s kind of pending. Mondays [00:24:35] is always busy day. So something or other is always happening operationally.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going wrong. Right.

Anushika Brogan: Something’s going [00:24:40] wrong somewhere.

[TRANSITION]: So how many dentists is it?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, we have now got 202. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, 202 dentists at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: 202 [00:24:50] dentists. That’s. So there’s constantly at GDC case going [00:24:55] on. There’s constantly divorce going on. Like, you know what I mean? There’s 200.

[TRANSITION]: People. Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a birthday every day.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. There’s always stuff.

Anushika Brogan: There’s always stuff.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:25:05] and of.

Payman Langroudi: Of those 42 practices I understand some of them are gigantic. [00:25:10] Like one of them that we, we went to HS. You’ve got a few like ten chair ones. [00:25:15] Yeah. And then some of them are tiny.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, smallest is two surgeries [00:25:20] and but yeah, a lot of them are eight, ten.

Payman Langroudi: And the majority [00:25:25] are mixed.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s the model you like?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. That’s the model I like most.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve got [00:25:30] a couple of private.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got five private.

Payman Langroudi: Five private.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you [00:25:35] still work? How long as a dentist?

Anushika Brogan: I mean, until three, four months ago, [00:25:40] I was working a full day. 8 to 6 on a Tuesday day.

[TRANSITION]: Week?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah. A week [00:25:45] now I do 8 to 2, but I don’t tend to leave there till about three. And then by [00:25:50] the time you’ve done all your notes and referrals and everything, I mean, it’s a full day.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:25:55] used to do a day a week for about six years, and then I just had a bad day and [00:26:00] I thought.

[TRANSITION]: I don’t need to do this anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Just don’t forget.

[TRANSITION]: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you [00:26:05] being a practising dentist, I suspect in one way. I remember when [00:26:10] I used to do my day a week. There was an element of. There was a break, you know, that no one was going to, you [00:26:15] know, interrupt me during that. There was a kind of a break from this here, [00:26:20] but I found it stressful. I found it stressful. Like I started hating that day.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [00:26:25] no, I love that day. Not that I.

Payman Langroudi: Used to hate being a dentist. I used to love being a dentist. Yeah. But that [00:26:30] day was a stressor in my head because I’m like, oh, regulations [00:26:35] are changing. Am I keeping up with them and all of that? You know, in your world, I guess [00:26:40] that’s you’re all about the regulations, right? So that you don’t have to worry about.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Anushika Brogan: You still have to worry about [00:26:45] it, but I’ve always had the attitude that, you know, what? If patients like you and, [00:26:50] you know, you feel like you’re. I mean, a lot of my patients have been coming to me for 20 years.

[TRANSITION]: You [00:26:55] know.

Payman Langroudi: So keeping in touch with those guys, I guess.

[TRANSITION]: Gives you pleasure. Chit chat with them, like, oh.

Anushika Brogan: It just [00:27:00] reminds me why. Why I’m doing what I’m doing. You know, it just is a good reminder because [00:27:05] it’s hard if you lose sight of what we did it for in the first place. You [00:27:10] know, I’m really, like, passionate about healthcare. Like, I really want to make sure that people are looked after. [00:27:15] Um, you know, and I think it’s quite difficult. I mean, I [00:27:20] got, I got trolled yesterday on TikTok by somebody like, you know, and you [00:27:25] know, when, when you get stuff like that happen, you’re just like, I take it really personally. I’ve really tried [00:27:30] not to. I was just like, you know, but it’s really difficult. And I’ve got a lot of what do they say?

[TRANSITION]: What do they [00:27:35] say?

Anushika Brogan: They were saying, like it’s a NHS patient who can get access, [00:27:40] right, standard, standard thing across the country. And they were basically, um, [00:27:45] calling my reception team retards. And I was just like, that is so rude for [00:27:50] a start. Like, that’s horrible. In the first few sentences, I was just like, I hate you already. I [00:27:55] don’t like you. You’re not a nice person because you would just would not say that. But he’s obviously creating [00:28:00] drama. And then he was saying stuff about me personally. He’d obviously like looked me up and [00:28:05] etc. and then my, my nurse who, um, is [00:28:10] a dentist, actually, he’s a Sudanese dentist. And, you know, we got a lot of the Sydney’s dentists out of the war [00:28:15] zone at the time. So we’ve got a lot of Sydney’s in our in our organisation. And he [00:28:20] said to me he was such a sweet guy. And he said to me at the time that, um, there’s, [00:28:25] there’s a saying that if you’re if you’re flying in the clouds, you shouldn’t [00:28:30] worry about dogs barking underneath you. And I just thought to myself, do you know what? That’s [00:28:35] that’s really true. But it’s really hard for me because I feel like it’s my brand. And, you know, when people [00:28:40] say stuff about DiMera, I still feel quite personal about it. But a [00:28:45] lot of my team do as well, of course, which is really nice.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s your baby, right? [00:28:50] Yeah. Something they used to, they used there was a point where they pulled me out of the stand on [00:28:55] the show, in the shows, because if someone said something about enlightened, I’d suddenly get sweaty [00:29:00] and.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you don’t want.

Anushika Brogan: You know, it’s important, [00:29:05] right? That like, you know, you care. If you don’t care, then you don’t make it work as well. [00:29:10] I feel.

[TRANSITION]: So, Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Had a patient contact me. I put my number everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. [00:29:15] And I had a patient call up and say, yeah, my teeth aren’t the same colour as [00:29:20] the before and afters on your on your page. And I said, yeah, [00:29:25] well they would be if the dentist took a picture of them. Yeah. And he said, well why don’t you say [00:29:30] on your page that that’s a dentist taking the picture of the thing. And I said, well, [00:29:35] I don’t know that, you know, that we do it clinically and all that. And then he got really [00:29:40] angry. He started shouting at me, and I felt that feeling again of protecting [00:29:45] my baby. Yeah. It’s a very personal thing, isn’t it? It’s a very personal thing.

[TRANSITION]: But I think dentists. [00:29:50]

Anushika Brogan: Don’t really talk about how that feels as much because, you know, it does happen [00:29:55] quite a lot. Like, you know, I can remember I can remember really clearly, you know, when first [00:30:00] year or two of practice, when I can remember, I obviously didn’t explain to someone [00:30:05] that they were going to have a gold crown in their mouth. Not not like a white one. And the guy just went [00:30:10] for me when I fitted his crown, went for me, and I was just like, oh, actually really [00:30:15] taught me. I’ve got to really make sure that they definitely want a gold or silver crown. But like [00:30:20] early on, you know, all of this kind of stuff happens, doesn’t it, in your career and nobody really talks about it, which [00:30:25] is hard. You kind of face it by yourself in your surgery and that’s it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s early mistakes, right? [00:30:30]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember once I was on the brink of asking this lady, has [00:30:35] she thought about sorting out her skin or something. You know, like she had bad acne [00:30:40] or something. Yeah. And I just I was a child, I was, I was 22 or something, and I just thought, [00:30:45] no, I’m not going to ask that. But I was on the brink of it. Yeah, I might have, I might have, yeah. [00:30:50] And how that would have made her feel and you know what I mean. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: In hindsight.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mistakes that you could make. [00:30:55] Right. So look there’s 200 dentists, 200 odd dentists. I suspect some [00:31:00] of them are specialists. Some of them are experienced, some of them are brand new. Some of them are overseas. [00:31:05] What have you learned about dentists managing dentists [00:31:10] because you have more experience in that than most?

Anushika Brogan: I think that, um, [00:31:15] I think that the nice ones are the ones that actually are [00:31:20] considerate and listen to.

[TRANSITION]: The patient.

Anushika Brogan: To patients. The ones that listen to you are [00:31:25] the ones that listen to their patients, and the ones that don’t listen to you are [00:31:30] the ones that don’t listen to their patients either. And it’s a problem. It’s a problem. [00:31:35]

[TRANSITION]: It’s a red flag. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I find it like, you know, some people are really, like, [00:31:40] I know everything, you know, but. But if they’re treating me like that, they’re definitely [00:31:45] treating our patients like that. And for me, that’s just it’s a red flag. It’s [00:31:50] a red flag. Because, you know, they might be okay, but quite [00:31:55] often they’re not. So, um, that’s kind of one of my big learnings because [00:32:00] and it doesn’t matter whether they’re new or whether they’re old. Like, you know, when I say old, I mean that [00:32:05] they’ve been with us.

[TRANSITION]: For a long time. Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: It doesn’t matter because you get new people who are [00:32:10] exactly the same. They just don’t want to listen. They think they know everything.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an interesting insight. What [00:32:15] else?

Anushika Brogan: Um, I think that.

[TRANSITION]: Do you think you. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: Can tell from an interview what the dentist is going to be like? Have you got good at that? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Really [00:32:25] good.

Payman Langroudi: As in what? His communication.

Anushika Brogan: Communication. You can tell from the questions they ask, [00:32:30] I don’t I don’t interview people as such. I have a chat with them. Yeah. I like them to tell me about [00:32:35] themselves and like, you know, you can tell straight away from their body language whether [00:32:40] they’re shy, whether they’re, you know, whether they’re really confident, whether they have got ten offers [00:32:45] in their hands. And I’m just a number 11. You can just tell, you can tell from just chatting. [00:32:50]

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been you’ve been around long enough to be able to tell. Right. But yeah, but I had a guy here [00:32:55] a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. He was socially very awkward, very awkward [00:33:00] until we started talking about teeth. Once we started talking about teeth, he was. He was [00:33:05] the charming, like, amazing, you know. And I thought to myself, that’s such a big difference, [00:33:10] right? Yeah. They don’t realise he’s a very experienced dentist, right? He’s. He knows how to talk about teeth. Yes. [00:33:15] Yeah. But in that moment of, you know, hi to me. And would you like a coffee? He was. [00:33:20] He was a bit all over the place. But I guess you’ve got a sixth sense about that.

[TRANSITION]: But, you know. [00:33:25]

Anushika Brogan: I to that I think that actually you can be a really good, experienced dentist, but you have [00:33:30] to put your patients at ease. You have to be able to put your patients at ease, because whilst [00:33:35] they want to talk about their teeth and they need to talk about their teeth, actually, [00:33:40] if you talk a little bit around that and they’re comfortable, then they will relax. [00:33:45] And actually they’ll listen to what you’re saying about their teeth half the time. So that stress, they don’t even listen to what you’re saying and they miss [00:33:50] half the detail.

[TRANSITION]: Not to mention.

Payman Langroudi: The go for bigger treatment plan. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: And the whole thing.

[TRANSITION]: Really? [00:33:55] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: So who’s your longest standing dentist? [00:34:00] How long has he been with you?

Anushika Brogan: I had someone retire with me. I’ve [00:34:05] got another one about to retire with me as well.

[TRANSITION]: And is that the goal?

Payman Langroudi: Is that the goal?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That someone [00:34:10] stays, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, absolutely.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve got practice owners who I bought their practices ten, [00:34:15] ten years ago. They’re still here. I’ve got no ties to them. Never did have. They stay because [00:34:20] they want to stay because they’re happy.

[TRANSITION]: See what?

Payman Langroudi: We’re working with my dentist now, right? And I remember [00:34:25] you all. Remember this too? Yeah, ten years ago.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Terrible reputation [00:34:30] amongst dentists. Yeah. Now you go talk to their clinicians here, [00:34:35] and a bunch of them chose to go work there. Yeah, yeah. In the same way as, you know, like you might go [00:34:40] and choose to go to a McDonald’s because you know, what you’re going to get from them, chose to go work [00:34:45] there. Yeah. But also you can see throughout the management the whole thing is keeping dentists happy, [00:34:50] making sure dentists doesn’t leave.

Anushika Brogan: Tom, you did that.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry, Tom.

Anushika Brogan: You did that.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. [00:34:55] Right.

Anushika Brogan: He’s he’s the one who’s done that.

[TRANSITION]: Changed it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: They’ve they’ve they’ve done [00:35:00] that Deliberately changed the values.

Payman Langroudi: For sure.

[TRANSITION]: For sure.

Anushika Brogan: Fantastic job.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:35:05] would you say that that’s your key job? Like like is your key customer the dentist?

[TRANSITION]: Definitely. [00:35:10] Really? Yeah. Is that how you look at it?

Anushika Brogan: Patients are really important. I think that looking after patients [00:35:15] for support teams, they’ve got two jobs. Look after the patients. Look after the dentist. Because the dentist are [00:35:20] the ones that make the money. Yeah. Our job is to support them. If you if you don’t support them, you’re not doing your job [00:35:25] properly.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: That’s how you say.

[TRANSITION]: It to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So then okay keeping dentists [00:35:30] happy. What are your top tips. What have you learned to do and not to do [00:35:35] to keep dentists.

Anushika Brogan: I mean if you’re a nurse turn up to work that’s important. [00:35:40] But like, you know, making sure that things are stocked properly, that’s really important. [00:35:45] You know, if they’ve got an issue, making sure that you sort it in a timely kind of fashion because, [00:35:50] you know, the worst thing is if something goes wrong, you know, people don’t. The dentists don’t ring me, [00:35:55] but if they ring me, it’s because something isn’t getting sorted quick enough. And I’ve said to all [00:36:00] of them, you’ve got my number. If for any reason you need to pick up the phone and ring me. Ring me. Don’t get frustrated [00:36:05] about stuff. Ring me. So. But they only ring me if something’s not getting sorted. And [00:36:10] then I know that. Come on, guys like you know this is your job.

Payman Langroudi: And then from the [00:36:15] recruitment perspective, do you talk to every single dentist?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Everyone. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Sure. You’re not talking to every single nurse, right. You’re not doing.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, not.

Anushika Brogan: Nurses, not [00:36:25] nurses, hygienists, etc.. So the area managers do um clinicians [00:36:30] so and therapists, hygienists etc.. Yeah. And um, they’ll [00:36:35] always they’ll always also meet the dentist before they start with us. Um, practice managers do [00:36:40] practice teams.

Payman Langroudi: So so then tell me about so the overall [00:36:45] like org chart. Yeah. How many people in head office like it’s you you’ve got your leadership [00:36:50] team. How many people do all those people the marketing leadership operations.

Anushika Brogan: We’ve got 34 [00:36:55] in support.

[TRANSITION]: Of head office. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then is [00:37:00] do you see that as your those that’s your business. Like you’re dealing with those people and [00:37:05] then only going talking to the practices.

[TRANSITION]: And so I.

Anushika Brogan: Directly manage the area managers.

[TRANSITION]: So so.

Anushika Brogan: On [00:37:10] a Monday I do all of the support teams like the people in the office.

[TRANSITION]: Meetings.

Anushika Brogan: On a Tuesday [00:37:15] when I’m driving to and from my clinical day, I have my catch ups with my area managers. So [00:37:20] I find out what’s going on, if they’ve got any queries, if they want to move people around, etc. but like, I’m [00:37:25] still very involved in who works where, all the rotors, all of that kind of stuff [00:37:30] because like that’s where you lose money if you are not driving those things carefully [00:37:35] and like surgeries aren’t full properly and things like that. So, um, I work quite [00:37:40] closely with the area managers and on that type of thing and business strategy, like, you know, if they’re stuck [00:37:45] on something, I’ll give them ideas on how to fix it. Um, and then [00:37:50] or who to move where, you know, because I know who all my clinicians are. So we [00:37:55] have chats around that. And then Wednesday I’m out in practice, so I try and get out to the practices [00:38:00] as much as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Whichever one needs you.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So if there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Typically [00:38:05] what’s the problem like some.

[TRANSITION]: Argument or something.

Anushika Brogan: Normally dentists if dentists are like, [00:38:10] you know, making noise about leaving and we don’t want them to or anything like that. Yeah. Then, you [00:38:15] know, I’d go out and see them and just make sure that they’re okay. That type of thing. Um, or [00:38:20] if there’s. Yeah, if there’s arguments, sometimes there are arguments between teams and like, [00:38:25] you know, it’s a bit overwhelming most of the time the area managers can sort it, sometimes they can’t.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:38:30] and then you said the.

Payman Langroudi: Practice manager is in charge of the Ebit for each practice.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:35] incentivise that way. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:40] but then what kind of clothes do you keep on that. I mean you obviously look at that right.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:38:45] Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So we have, um, monthly branch analysis meetings. So we look [00:38:50] at every branch in detail.

[TRANSITION]: And look.

Anushika Brogan: At their costs. So their overheads [00:38:55] and just like work out how that’s tracking against budget. So we [00:39:00] sent them a budget at the beginning of the year. And we just say to them that, look, you know, ultimately [00:39:05] we want you to achieve this EBITDA, whether you do it by earning more or whether you do it by cutting costs up to you, but [00:39:10] this is what you need to achieve, and then you get your bonus. So that’s what they’re working towards. [00:39:15] And then the area manager gets, you know.

[TRANSITION]: Um, incentivised, incentivised.

Anushika Brogan: By [00:39:20] their practices.

[TRANSITION]: And they’re taking.

Payman Langroudi: Care of like ten each or something.

Anushika Brogan: I’ve always found that 7 [00:39:25] or 8 is max for me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So they’re quite they’ve got quite a lot of attention on [00:39:30] those practices.

Payman Langroudi: What an organisation man. It just it just seems like [00:39:35] a total nightmare to me. You’ve got it, you’ve got it. You’ve got it down. What [00:39:40] about your perfect sort of model of of business that you want to buy? Is it one that has [00:39:45] got space for development?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I like, I like.

Anushika Brogan: I like very NHS practices [00:39:50] because I know I can build the private so I quite like, you know, they’re very NHS. [00:39:55] That’s great for me. Lots of potential to.

Payman Langroudi: Well there’s plenty of very NHS practices around the place but what [00:40:00] specifically.

Anushika Brogan: So I’d normally go for four chairs um usually. And [00:40:05] you know, the ones where they’re not hardly doing any Invisalign. They haven’t got implants in there, they haven’t got, [00:40:10] you know, they haven’t got because the practice has been there for a long time and has always done it one way, [00:40:15] stuff like that. They haven’t digitalised at all. They haven’t kind of like got digital, you know, [00:40:20] scanners and all of that kind of stuff. And just adding all of that in and getting new blood in there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: But okay. But do you look at the location [00:40:30] and think that’s a good location for locations.

[TRANSITION]: Really important for cosmetic. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Locations. [00:40:35] No, not for cosmetic. For what? No. Because actually I found that [00:40:40] general bread and butter dentistry earns more than everything [00:40:45] else can do.

[TRANSITION]: I mean, look.

Anushika Brogan: If you think of a knee max crown, you’re going to earn the same. Doing an Emax crown as you [00:40:50] are time wise doing an implant, right? So yeah, actually, if you can get a lot of patients in, [00:40:55] it’s got to be busy. Location is really important because if it’s not busy, there’s no point.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:41:00] but but okay so busy. Every NHS practice is busy.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Busy with the kind of person who can afford [00:41:05] any max. Is that what you.

[TRANSITION]: Trying to say?

Anushika Brogan: Not necessarily. Because, like, one of my most successful practices is [00:41:10] in, like, a very, um, poor socioeconomic [00:41:15] area in Southampton.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a volume game.

[TRANSITION]: Volume.

Anushika Brogan: Game, totally, totally [00:41:20] a volume game.

Payman Langroudi: But then so my point is, what kind of area are you looking for then? How do you decide [00:41:25] that’s the right area or that isn’t.

Anushika Brogan: I think I think it’s I, I think it’s just with experience now, [00:41:30] I can tell whether or not I can make it work. So it’s not.

[TRANSITION]: That. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s let’s say [00:41:35] I’m in the practice in Southampton that’s just been bought by you. Yes. How quickly do you [00:41:40] go into the I mean, do you believe in sort of the evolution or the revolution way of doing [00:41:45] you go start rebranding.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you? [00:41:50] I mean, that’s opposite advice.

[TRANSITION]: Opposite.

Anushika Brogan: Opposite to everybody.

[TRANSITION]: Else. That’s opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Advice to. Except for dev. [00:41:55] Yeah. Um. Dental. Beauty. Yeah. Who goes and smashes the place down and starts all over [00:42:00] again?

[TRANSITION]: Everyone else. Everyone else.

Payman Langroudi: Slowly. Slowly. Make the team feel [00:42:05] comfortable. Make the patients feel comfortable.

Anushika Brogan: For the practices it’s for. It’s not for the practice. Like the [00:42:10] patients. Because the patients, like people, take over stuff all the time. People are used to it, right? [00:42:15] It’s for the team. That’s what they do it for. And I think it depends because if you want to keep the team, [00:42:20] then slowly, slowly is a good way around. If you don’t want to keep the team.

[TRANSITION]: Then the always [00:42:25] better bits. Yeah that’s interesting.

Anushika Brogan: And most of the time when I’m buying businesses, you’d.

[TRANSITION]: Rather start [00:42:30] again.

Anushika Brogan: I’d rather start again because.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Legacy and all that. So interesting. [00:42:35]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’d rather have a four chair practice that looks like you can develop it? Yeah. And freehold? [00:42:40]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, if I can, if I can try. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then straight away you [00:42:45] smash it down, make it prettier.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: New people, new.

Anushika Brogan: We don’t always straight [00:42:50] away smash it down. We plan to do it in the next year because if we’ve just bought it, we’re kind of letting [00:42:55] it run for a bit.

Payman Langroudi: When it comes to the smashing down. And how long does that take?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, [00:43:00] it depends on the size of the practice. So and it depends on what we’re doing. So I’ve done it before where [00:43:05] all we do is pretty up the waiting room and run that for five years and then do a massive [00:43:10] refurb.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Because actually the most important bit is the waiting room.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:43:15]

Anushika Brogan: If the waiting room looks nice, people are in.

[TRANSITION]: No, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re also having to bring in scanners. Um, [00:43:20] yeah. Do you do any advertising, marketing or anything?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Payman Langroudi: Or word of mouth?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. All word [00:43:25] of.

[TRANSITION]: Mouth. We. It’s interesting.

Anushika Brogan: We don’t spend hardly anything on marketing. Our marketing budget is really [00:43:30] low.

[TRANSITION]: That’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: On purpose?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Why?

Anushika Brogan: Because [00:43:35] I feel like if you provide a really good service, people talk and then [00:43:40] you don’t have to. And I don’t tend to buy practices in central London, which is where it’s [00:43:45] competitive. And you have to really mark it. So. And, you know, there’s [00:43:50] other places where I just wouldn’t buy a practice. There’s, you know, there’s certain types [00:43:55] of people that just don’t like to spend money.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And, you know, I just wouldn’t buy practices [00:44:00] around there.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:44:05]

Anushika Brogan: So, you know, like, you can’t make money out of those people. [00:44:10] You know, it’s like, you know, if you buy a practice where people are having their hair done and having their nails [00:44:15] done and having their, you know, you’re going to make money out of it, aren’t you?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:44:20] Okay. Now the practice is running and it’s kind of running. Not [00:44:25] the best. Yeah. How involved do you get then to, like.

[TRANSITION]: Increase?

Anushika Brogan: So.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:44:30] what do you do? What do you do?

Anushika Brogan: I would do is try and try and encourage the area managers to do this, do that, [00:44:35] do this, do that.

Payman Langroudi: Like whatever is right for.

[TRANSITION]: Whatever is right for that practice. What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Come on, give me a few tips. [00:44:40]

Anushika Brogan: So we try different things like different business models, right? Like, you know, maybe [00:44:45] I don’t know. Um, do you try and bring children in? So a [00:44:50] big way of bringing patients in is to target children. Free children?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: You know, because [00:44:55] actually, not everyone’s got access. So, you know, we did that in the Isle of Wight in the beginning when I took over practices [00:45:00] on the Isle of Wight. And we needed patients. Just get the kids in because with the kids come the adults. And then you can sell to the [00:45:05] adults. Yeah. So, um, do that type of thing. Um, just [00:45:10] all kinds of initiatives. Even go to schools and put flyers in their, in their school bags, you know, go and do [00:45:15] a talk. Uh, key.

[TRANSITION]: Stage two marketing. That’s marketing.

Anushika Brogan: Marketing. It’s free.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:45:20] yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Practically free compared to what you would spend on Google ads and all the rest of it. Don’t [00:45:25] tend to do many Google ad campaigns.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: While you’re doing the play, suppose I mean, do you do you [00:45:30] leaflet the local, do you go to local businesses and do anything, anything like that?

[TRANSITION]: Not really. [00:45:35]

Anushika Brogan: Not really. We don’t tend to. Signage is really important. Yeah, I think signage [00:45:40] is massive. I think that if you’ve got the right signage because most of the practices you go past, [00:45:45] you can’t even see that their dental practices.

Payman Langroudi: Many, many like that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And so like, you know, if you [00:45:50] if you like, we put massive signs everywhere that hello, we’re here.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Kunal [00:45:55] Patel. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Love teeth. Love teeth. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: His son, as you can see from outer space. Because [00:46:00] it’s not the biggest.

[TRANSITION]: But it’s right.

Anushika Brogan: Right. Like, people know that he’s there, so it’s [00:46:05] important.

Payman Langroudi: All right, so signage.

[TRANSITION]: And all that signage.

Anushika Brogan: Is really important. Um, I think brand [00:46:10] is really important. And that’s why, like, you know, people saying that we don’t go and change anything. I’d go and change everything. [00:46:15] Because for me, if I’m spending money in a practice, I want to know that, [00:46:20] like, you know, it’s a bigger company. I’m going to be looked after. This is the service you get. These [00:46:25] are the branded documents. You get all of that type of thing. I think that’s quite important. But I think people [00:46:30] are really important, like, you know, when you first come in. So reception is quite important. Although I’m [00:46:35] currently looking at reception receptionist free.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Kind [00:46:40] of that whole.

[TRANSITION]: System.

Anushika Brogan: Of just like, you know, QR code and you scan in. It’s I mean, [00:46:45] cost saving on a business is massive. So we’re looking at that model.

[TRANSITION]: So look.

Payman Langroudi: There [00:46:50] must be a big amount of training for all the people in the practice to [00:46:55] pull off this thing. That is high word of mouth. I mean, word of mouth is doesn’t [00:47:00] happen by accident, right? Yeah. So now now you get new people. Let’s say let’s [00:47:05] say you got rid of all the previous people. New people come in. Yeah. Where’s that training? And what [00:47:10] is it?

[TRANSITION]: How prescribed.

Anushika Brogan: We send them to local practices.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: So one practice would go. [00:47:15] Yeah. They go and shadow other practices. And other people come into this practice to run [00:47:20] this practice. And we kind of swing things around like that so that they kind of see how our practices [00:47:25] run and how deacon runs and what our standards are and all of that type of thing. And then it kind [00:47:30] of just they.

[TRANSITION]: Buddy up outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of the operational. I mean, of course they need the operational skills. Yeah. But [00:47:35] but in order to blow patient socks off, it’s not easy to do in a mixed environment, [00:47:40] right?

[TRANSITION]: Like, I mean.

Anushika Brogan: I can’t with, you know, I can’t guarantee that every receptionist [00:47:45] of mine is blowing people’s.

[TRANSITION]: Socks off. No, I know.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re saying you don’t advertise. You get word of mouth. Yeah. So [00:47:50] getting word of mouth takes people to really care. And really, you know, how do [00:47:55] you how do you put that into a place?

Anushika Brogan: But I think I think, you know, like it kind of flows through the whole [00:48:00] business. If people feel like they’re cared about, then they will, um, [00:48:05] you know, really, really make an effort in the practice that they if they feel like they’re valued, they will [00:48:10] then value their job and they feel like then they’re an ambassador of DiMera. So [00:48:15] it matters how they speak to patients and all that kind of thing. So I’m very against [00:48:20] that. It’s like what I was saying earlier, I’m quite against the kind of, you know, stick approach. I’m [00:48:25] more about, like, you know, coaching people and actually. Yeah, so we do we like listen to calls [00:48:30] and things. So we mystery shop our receptionist, just make sure they’re saying the right thing. And just if [00:48:35] they’re not, we just replay them and say, just listen to this call. What do.

[TRANSITION]: You think? Listening to.

Payman Langroudi: Calls is one of the most [00:48:40] important things you can.

[TRANSITION]: Do regularly.

Payman Langroudi: As well.

[TRANSITION]: That’s the other thing.

Anushika Brogan: And they don’t [00:48:45] know it’s happening, right? So it’s.

[TRANSITION]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, what we found is that you [00:48:50] listen to a random set of calls. Totally random. Don’t try. And it takes [00:48:55] a long time to listen to calls in the first place to get learning points. Yeah. Forget that. Just take 20 [00:49:00] calls in a row and just listen to those 20 calls. And if one person was on seven of them by mistake or [00:49:05] whatever, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. And have like a no blame approach to that conversation. [00:49:10] And then everyone saying what could what could have been better about that conversation. [00:49:15] Yeah. It’s a brilliant approach and it’s surprising how few people do it. I [00:49:20] find that from the customer care and sales part of enlighten [00:49:25] is probably the most valuable work we do.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, it’s it’s really important because actually [00:49:30] if you don’t, sometimes you don’t even realise how you come across yourself. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. You know. [00:49:35]

Anushika Brogan: So I think it’s really, really valuable to listen to yourself.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, for sure.

Anushika Brogan: I’ll probably do that. As a [00:49:40] dentist. Shouldn’t I listen to myself talking and just see if I like, talk to patients properly? It’s [00:49:45] a bit of work to be done around that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the finance side. So [00:49:50] you self-financed the first few, right? Or are you continuing to sell finance? What are you doing?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, [00:49:55] God. No.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, so I’ve got, um. So it was really interesting, actually, [00:50:00] because when I, when I bought my first practice, I took a bank loan. My dad guaranteed my [00:50:05] me.

[TRANSITION]: To my.

Anushika Brogan: Bank. Um, bank loan. And then second time I had [00:50:10] bought a house by then. So then I.

[TRANSITION]: Put the house up.

Anushika Brogan: Put the house up?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:15]

Anushika Brogan: And then by the time the third time, actually, that’s when I got into trouble, because [00:50:20] that’s when my mother in law said, oh, I’ll lend you the money and whatever anyway. And then by [00:50:25] then it just turned into a bit of a nightmare. But, um, I was really lucky because when I was [00:50:30] just at the end of my divorce, I met a lovely lady called Laura Graham who [00:50:35] worked in Metrobank, and she’d done corporate finance and all the rest of it. [00:50:40] And I just met her for a coffee one day because someone had recommended her. And, um, she [00:50:45] was like, I’m going to consolidate all your debt, and I’m going to put it all in one place and we’ll get you [00:50:50] more money so you can go out and buy practices. And she did everything for me, and I didn’t even know [00:50:55] what on earth she was doing, but I just trusted her that she would look after me because she knew what [00:51:00] my circumstance was and she knew that I needed help. And since like after that, [00:51:05] we just carried on growing because all my debt was consolidated. I actually didn’t have that much debt really, [00:51:10] compared to the value of the business. Um, and then as soon as I was [00:51:15] free again, I just bought quite a few more practices and just kind of chugged them like that. So. [00:51:20]

Payman Langroudi: So does she always come through? Like, when every single time. Or what happens? I mean, are [00:51:25] there times where she says, no, you can’t have that money?

Anushika Brogan: I’m not with her anymore.

[TRANSITION]: So she she left.

Anushika Brogan: So [00:51:30] she left Metrobank. And then I refinanced after that. So when she was when [00:51:35] I knew she was leaving, I only stayed there because she was there. Yeah. And then when she was leaving, I kind [00:51:40] of moved on. And I’m now with Santander and they’re equally good. They’re, you know, they’ve [00:51:45] been brilliant. So, um, but yeah, I mean, I had to again, that’s [00:51:50] a steep learning curve. No one actually tells you about how you have to really learn about how [00:51:55] EBITDA affects leverage and all of that kind of stuff. I mean, where do you learn that? Dental school, you don’t know. [00:52:00] So you have to kind of pick it up as you go along, don’t you? And just go, right, okay. I need to try and understand [00:52:05] this now.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but look, the business.

Payman Langroudi: Model of a corporate, I’m going to call you [00:52:10] a corporate just because you are. But the business model of a corporate. Yeah. We all I [00:52:15] think many, many people understand that sort of the multiples being bigger for bigger [00:52:20] businesses.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t really understand why myself. But let’s move on. [00:52:25] The all the, there’s all these extra humans here. Area managers, all [00:52:30] these different people. Yeah. Yeah. So these are extra costs? Yeah. Yeah. Does all of that [00:52:35] have to be paid back from me? From suppliers on bulk? You know, on. Is that it? Is [00:52:40] that the whole. Is that the whole thing?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the whole business model.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, the only the only good [00:52:45] thing about obviously, the corporate model is you’ve got an area manager who is essentially managing [00:52:50] all of these practices, so you don’t have to do it. I know.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s all these extra costs. Like if [00:52:55] we take a single practice. Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t got other people to pay. [00:53:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: So why should the Ebit be more for a multiple practice when there’s extra costs? [00:53:05]

Anushika Brogan: But the pinch point is the pinch point is when you’re at kind of 4 to 6 sites, [00:53:10] that is the pinch point.

[TRANSITION]: Because 4 to 5.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Well yeah. Kind [00:53:15] of between.

Anushika Brogan: But the problem is because when you’re at less than that you can go to each [00:53:20] site yourself. Yeah. And when you get bigger than that.

[TRANSITION]: That suddenly.

Anushika Brogan: Then. Yeah. That’s it. You need other [00:53:25] people because you just can’t manage. And it’s just too much work for one person. [00:53:30] So if you’re a small corporate, you can manage up to about 6 or 7. Then beyond that it just becomes [00:53:35] unmanageable. So tell.

Payman Langroudi: Me. Tell me about more growing pains. I love that sort of growing pains story. So [00:53:40] at six okay. What happened at 26?

[TRANSITION]: Like what other [00:53:45] growing pains.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, the thing the kinds of things that have happened. Oh, I could tell you so many [00:53:50] stories.

[TRANSITION]: Do you want some stories? Of course. 100. Oh, my.

Anushika Brogan: God, like the dramas [00:53:55] that happen when you catch. I mean, how do you. How do you like, how do you deal with, like, [00:54:00] who equips you to deal with when and like, a nurse and dentist are having [00:54:05] sex in your in your surgery? Who equips you with that? Like nobody. Like, do you know? Like you. [00:54:10]

[TRANSITION]: But it’s the kind.

Anushika Brogan: Of thing that happens to you as a practice owner.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Like.

Anushika Brogan: And you’re just [00:54:15] like, oh my God. Like, what do I do about this now? Do you know, like it’s really difficult to deal with. So [00:54:20] there’s stuff like that happens. Then you have things like people turn up to work on drugs. [00:54:25] Had that happen to me before?

[TRANSITION]: On drugs. On drugs? Yeah. Like.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t [00:54:30] even know what was going on. I had to, like, I was just like, I was relying on my practice manager to tell me. I was [00:54:35] just like, I haven’t got a clue. But, you know, stuff like that happens. Um, you know, people [00:54:40] turn up and, you know, we’ve we had one recently. I mean, I can’t even talk about [00:54:45] it. But anyway, there’s all this type of thing that happens where often.

Payman Langroudi: Right, because there’s 200. [00:54:50]

[TRANSITION]: Dentists and often.

Payman Langroudi: How many other people? Sorry, 200.

[TRANSITION]: Dentists.

Anushika Brogan: We’ve got 400 staff, [00:54:55] over 400.

[TRANSITION]: Staff on top of the.

Payman Langroudi: 200 dentists.

[TRANSITION]: 600 humans. [00:55:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I take my hat off to you, I really do. And three kids and.

[TRANSITION]: Three children.

Anushika Brogan: And [00:55:05] the three children. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: Other growing pains, that other growing [00:55:10] pains, the difference between managing a 20 site place and a five site place [00:55:15] or a 40 site place.

Anushika Brogan: Do you know when you’ve got smaller, smaller numbers of sites? [00:55:20] You can keep your eye on things more, and when there’s lots of sites you just can’t, you have [00:55:25] to trust the people that you trust. And sometimes you can’t trust them. Like [00:55:30] I’ve had one time we found £10,000 of our money from [00:55:35] the till. Like it wasn’t getting banked. We were like, where is it? Where is it? It was in the shed.

[TRANSITION]: It was in [00:55:40] a.

Anushika Brogan: Carrier bag in the shed. We had to go and like, you know, look through the whole thing, but like, you know, you [00:55:45] but you can’t you can’t have control over every site. So you have to just, [00:55:50] like, be okay with losing control a little bit. I think. Whereas you tightly [00:55:55] control a smaller business.

Payman Langroudi: I’d imagine it’s really difficult to keep culture going through so many sites [00:56:00] though, you know, like for the for it to feel the same in each place.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And [00:56:05] I think a lot of it depends on who the manager is.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Practice manager role is critical. [00:56:10] Absolutely critical I would say.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a hierarchy within [00:56:15] the practice? The practice manager in charge in the practice over the dentist or or is there a lead [00:56:20] dentist in each practice?

[TRANSITION]: No, we don’t.

Anushika Brogan: Have lead dentists. We have the practice manager is the person who organises [00:56:25] everything for the dentists.

Payman Langroudi: So that must be a friction point [00:56:30] though sometimes, right?

Anushika Brogan: No, because their role is to support the dentists. So [00:56:35] it’s not it’s not friction because I mean sometimes it becomes [00:56:40] friction. And then you have to make them understand that their job is to look after the dentist. [00:56:45] Right. So there’s no friction. There needs to be no friction. It’s really important that there is no friction. [00:56:50] So it does sometimes happen because you know dentists are unmanageable right? So most of them [00:56:55] most of them are. They don’t like being told what to do. They’re self-employed. They want [00:57:00] to do whatever they want to do. But I think that, you know, we are very understanding [00:57:05] as a business, like, you know, if someone has issues with childcare, issues with like, parents, [00:57:10] I’m very, very understanding of those things. And that’s what our managers have always been taught. But [00:57:15] if you take the Mickey out of us, out. So it’s [00:57:20] that kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the Associate experience at DiMera. [00:57:25] How does that compare to the associate? Experience at an independent [00:57:30] or an or any other business? What would you say is your sort of value [00:57:35] add as an employer with dentists?

Anushika Brogan: I think the most important thing is that [00:57:40] because I’m still in practice, I really understand what they are going through. [00:57:45] So we just did a conversion to dentistry, right? So we just converted all of our [00:57:50] sites to dentistry from. So yeah. And at the time we were doing it, I [00:57:55] know it’s the right thing to do because everything has to be cloud based and it’s much easier for people to access. You can write [00:58:00] your notes at home. All of the good things that come with being on a cloud based system. But, [00:58:05] you know, obviously clinicians, any change, everyone’s going crazy [00:58:10] about it. And everyone like a supporter of us, were like, we’ve got to do this. It’s [00:58:15] really important. We have to do it. We have to do it, blah, blah, blah. But when I went into surgery and [00:58:20] I’m trying to create a treatment plan and I’ve got like 20 minutes to do it. And, you know, you don’t know what [00:58:25] you’re doing and all the rest of it.

[TRANSITION]: You felt the pain.

Anushika Brogan: I could feel that pain. And on our dentist WhatsApp [00:58:30] chat I was like, guys, this is hard, isn’t it? You know, like, I’m there with them, having those those [00:58:35] conversations with them so I know exactly what they’re going through. But also, I think when you’re [00:58:40] a clinician, things like, um, I notes and stuff like that that [00:58:45] are coming through that, that is the first thing I’ve gone ahead with and put into my business, [00:58:50] because how much time does that save us as clinicians? But not everybody’s kind of got the [00:58:55] same mindset because it’s expensive. But for me, time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So which [00:59:00] system do you go with?

Anushika Brogan: Um, we’re going with we’re trialling chairside at the moment.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, [00:59:05] I really.

Anushika Brogan: Like the guys. It’s so.

[TRANSITION]: Nice. Yeah. Good people. Good.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Really good.

Payman Langroudi: So okay, so from [00:59:10] the associates perspective, the boss is a dentist, so understands their pain.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Understands [00:59:15] their pain.

[TRANSITION]: What else?

Anushika Brogan: I think I think it’s that whole family feel [00:59:20] that, you know, I really want them to know that, you know, if they’ve got a problem, they can pick up the phone [00:59:25] and ring me. And a lot of them do, you know, they WhatsApp me, they call me, they talk to me. And, [00:59:30] you know, I want them to know that they’ve got a really supportive person at the top, not someone [00:59:35] who’s going to be like, oh, hang on a minute, you’re an hour late. What’s going, you know, blah, blah, blah. Life [00:59:40] happens, right? Like, I know enough of my life has happened. You’ve got [00:59:45] to be understanding to people’s circumstances because if someone’s a really good associate and then suddenly [00:59:50] they’re getting divorced, of course they’re not going to work at the same pace, but it’s a phase and they’re going [00:59:55] to go through it, and then they’re going to come out the other end, and then they’re going to be great again. But they should know that.

[TRANSITION]: Is [01:00:00] there with them.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a separate clinical lead apart from you?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I’ve got a clinical advisor. Yeah. [01:00:05] Who does all of the like all the regulation stuff.

[TRANSITION]: The regulations.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Where you [01:00:10] have to read because I’m just like.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like.

[TRANSITION]: Reading? Reading.

Anushika Brogan: I like listening to audiobooks, [01:00:15] not reading. So. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that [01:00:20] person. So if someone, let’s say someone’s from overseas, you must get quite a lot of overseas dentists.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s [01:00:25] overseas. They’ve got that nightmare experience. Yeah. And they don’t know anything about [01:00:30] the NHS. Have you got a programme that they go through to understand the NHS?

Anushika Brogan: So, so [01:00:35] I do, I do a training session myself on NHS regulations that Nikolai also [01:00:40] joins with. So he’s our clinical advisor and he comes and does some of the [01:00:45] regulations. But we send a lot of documentation out to them as well about at any time, like things [01:00:50] change, like, you know, with Phosphonates anything like that, it goes out. We have a clinical huddle [01:00:55] that goes out every Friday. So any, any news that’s happened in the week goes out in [01:01:00] that. So it goes out on WhatsApp.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about your divorce? [01:01:05]

Anushika Brogan: Do you want to talk about my divorce? I do.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: Let’s [01:01:10] talk about my.

[TRANSITION]: Divorce aspect.

Payman Langroudi: Of of divorce that I’m interested with someone like you is [01:01:15] that this is almost like a in an Asian community. It’s like shame in it. Yeah. [01:01:20] Did you feel that?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, no. Not at the [01:01:25] point where I got divorced. I didn’t feel shame. No.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your advice? I mean, there [01:01:30] must be unhappy people listening to this. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that aspect. [01:01:35] I’m really interested in that aspect here, because I’m sure there’s a bunch of people not getting out [01:01:40] of relationships because of what that will look like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of people. [01:01:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And I think I actually only got married because of what it would look like at [01:01:50] the point where I was so far in that it would have looked, would have looked bad [01:01:55] for me to back out the.

Payman Langroudi: Families.

[TRANSITION]: And all that. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. So, like [01:02:00] my in-laws family and they are really nice people. Now, [01:02:05] in hindsight, I’m older. I understand them a little bit better. Like, you know, I [01:02:10] think when you’re 20 something years old and you’re immature and feisty, and I always feisty. [01:02:15] I bet you can imagine I was really feisty, as you wouldn’t want me [01:02:20] as a daughter in law. Really, because I’ve got such a strong head. But my mother in law also [01:02:25] had a really strong head. Like she was really strong minded and really controlling, and it [01:02:30] was probably really difficult for her because she just probably didn’t know how to handle me. She had two sons [01:02:35] who literally did everything that she asked of them. And then this daughter in-law comes along [01:02:40] and was just like, don’t really agree with you. You know, I’m very opinionated.

[TRANSITION]: So [01:02:45] have you got empathy.

Payman Langroudi: Now that if one of your sons comes back with a girl and.

[TRANSITION]: And. [01:02:50]

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I think so, I think so.

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But empathy to her situation, to your mother in law’s situation. [01:02:55] And like, you know, when you say the sons did everything their mother wanted them to, your son [01:03:00] does everything you want him to do. My my sons say everything. You know what I mean. You’re not asking [01:03:05] him to do much, right?

Anushika Brogan: My my sons. I think I’ve brought them up really independently. I don’t [01:03:10] I was brought up really independently, and so, um, because my [01:03:15] parents always tried to make me think for myself rather than them [01:03:20] think for me, like, you know, it’s it’s, um. And that was the biggest difference was that [01:03:25] my, um, ex-husband’s family, they they very much do whatever [01:03:30] the parents say. Whereas in my family, it wasn’t like that. Yeah, yeah. And don’t question it. Whereas, you know, [01:03:35] if I, if I did something wrong, my, my sons have called me out 100%. They’d call me out.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [01:03:40]

Anushika Brogan: Which is the, which is. Right. Right. Like we’re all human and.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the youngest of how.

[TRANSITION]: Many? [01:03:45]

Anushika Brogan: Um, there’s only me. I had a brother, but he passed away.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. I’m sorry. Yeah. I’m [01:03:50] sorry. So.

Payman Langroudi: And you said your your your dad had shot, but your dad was a [01:03:55] biologist. He was.

[TRANSITION]: A chemist.

Payman Langroudi: Chemist? Chemist.

Anushika Brogan: He was a chemist.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And he worked on [01:04:00] erythromycin.

Payman Langroudi: Was it erythromycin?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m remembering that.

[TRANSITION]: Now. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: That’s [01:04:05] good. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So that that sort of way that you were brought up [01:04:10] slightly different to the norm of like Asian families. Although I [01:04:15] spent a lot of time in Kent, we’re in Kent, where I spent my first 4 or 5 years as a dentist in [01:04:20] Kent. Did you? Yeah. And by mistake, actually. Um, but the [01:04:25] I, you know, Kentish people I found really interesting, man, that very, very sort of [01:04:30] straightforward, down to earth people. And I remember even then I was there to, you [01:04:35] know. Yeah. From around the, the late 90s, [01:04:40] early 2000, there were hardly anyone who wasn’t Kentish in Kent. [01:04:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I was in the big, bigger city. You Isle of Sheppey. Yeah. I was in Ashford and Folkestone. [01:04:50] Bigger, bigger towns. And yet there were very few.

[TRANSITION]: It’s hardly.

Payman Langroudi: A non-English.

[TRANSITION]: People.

Anushika Brogan: Hardly [01:04:55] any Asians, hardly any like other people. Even now, like, you know, it’s very. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even now compared to, compared to the rest of the country.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Very English. So.

Payman Langroudi: So do you think that sort of that [01:05:05] being brought up in that environment, that suburban sort of Kentish Environment was [01:05:10] actually a factor that made your upbringing different too.

[TRANSITION]: Because a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot of Asian families, [01:05:15] there’s a comparison thing going.

[TRANSITION]: On. Yeah, definitely.

Anushika Brogan: And I had no cousins here, so [01:05:20] I had no family here. So actually we weren’t typically [01:05:25] Asian.

[TRANSITION]: I would say. Yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: You know, I really had a big shock when I came to King’s and everyone [01:05:30] was Asian and it was really competitive. I was just like, what’s happened to me? I don’t know, I don’t know what’s going on. [01:05:35] So I found it really difficult adjusting.

Payman Langroudi: Is your mum a very strong [01:05:40] woman? Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Very, very strong woman. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: She is. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: What were you like in Dental school? Were you like, what kind of like were you? The [01:05:50] study hard, top of your class type?

[TRANSITION]: No, no.

Anushika Brogan: I was always a [01:05:55] scrape through her.

[TRANSITION]: I two, me two.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah I didn’t, I didn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Is that.

Payman Langroudi: 2080 thing? [01:06:00]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. 20% work or 80% party.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. I mean, [01:06:05] I’ve always like, you know, liked a good time, but I think I really struggled to know [01:06:10] who I was when I went to dental school. I was really happy at school, and when I [01:06:15] came to London I just felt like totally lost. I just felt like totally lost. Why? [01:06:20]

[TRANSITION]: Because. Because you went from the small.

Payman Langroudi: Town to a big town.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. I just didn’t fit in. I didn’t.

Anushika Brogan: I felt [01:06:25] like I always thought when I was in Kent that when I was with Asians, I would fit in. And [01:06:30] then when I came and was with Asians, I didn’t fit in. And it really just threw me. I [01:06:35] was just like, who am I? I’ve got no, like, identity. I don’t know where I, where I am. Like, [01:06:40] you know, and I didn’t make friends very easily. And then like, you know, my friendships I’ve, [01:06:45] I’ve got friends from school still that I’m still best friends with. I’ve got like my home [01:06:50] friends I’m still best friends with.

[TRANSITION]: They’re the best.

Anushika Brogan: They’re the best.

[TRANSITION]: Best friends. Definitely.

Anushika Brogan: But, um. [01:06:55]

[TRANSITION]: But not uni. Not uni, not uni. So it was pretty sad timing. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I didn’t [01:07:00] have a good time. Didn’t have a good time at all.

[TRANSITION]: It’s weird. Just didn’t have a good time. Yeah. [01:07:05]

Anushika Brogan: Just didn’t have a good time. Just didn’t didn’t really find my crew. Like, you know who I really fitted in [01:07:10] with.

[TRANSITION]: And how.

Payman Langroudi: Long like, when was it that you felt like you found comfort, [01:07:15] peace, your voice, your. You know, I think.

Anushika Brogan: When I met my husband, my now [01:07:20] husband, I definitely feel like he has made me feel so much more secure in myself. [01:07:25] And, um, yeah, he’s kind of made me feel made [01:07:30] me see things differently about people quite a lot. He’s very grounded and he [01:07:35] was adopted. So he’s kind of like, you know, he’s had lots of drama in his own life, [01:07:40] but he’s very calm and rational. Just what I need because I’m chaotic. [01:07:45]

[TRANSITION]: So that’s how you would.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when you met him?

Anushika Brogan: Um, in my 30s.

[TRANSITION]: Wow. [01:07:50]

Anushika Brogan: 30? 33?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:07:55] 30. So I do.

Payman Langroudi: A podcast with Rhona as well. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one, but. But she always talks about [01:08:00] as a as a lady. I’m sure it’s not the same for everyone, but as a lady in your 30s, you [01:08:05] get sort of more confident.

[TRANSITION]: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: And I sort of think of it as [01:08:10] like, you know, the Princess Di effect, you know, like she was much more attractive in her [01:08:15] 30s than she was when she was 21 or whatever she was when she got married.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Because I could see I didn’t have [01:08:20] confidence.

Anushika Brogan: I didn’t have, like so much confidence when I was younger, I think I think I was confident [01:08:25] at school. But when I got because.

Payman Langroudi: You were getting the grades or.

Anushika Brogan: Whatever. Yeah. I mean, yeah, [01:08:30] let’s not talk about my grades. Yeah. But you know, I [01:08:35] was confident because I just felt secure and I felt loved by my family and, you [01:08:40] know, all the rest of it. And when I came to uni, I just, I just, I don’t know, that period is just really unhappy period [01:08:45] for me in my head. So but you know, it passed.

[TRANSITION]: But do you think.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, do you think it’s [01:08:50] a woman thing? Like I think it is. Yeah I do. So now you’ve got a daughter. I’ve got a daughter. Yeah. Are [01:08:55] you addressing that somehow?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: I mean, I think I think it’s really difficult because [01:09:00] I think my, my mum was particularly hard on me when I was growing up, because my [01:09:05] brother was always more sensitive, and I was definitely the stronger out of the two of us.

[TRANSITION]: So she [01:09:10] the younger sometimes. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. And I think I’ll probably do it to my middle son as well. [01:09:15] I probably am a little bit harder on him because I think he can handle it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So. [01:09:20]

Anushika Brogan: Um, but with with my daughter, you know, I just both of us, my husband [01:09:25] and I both really try and tell her all the time that she’s beautiful and, you know, all of those things that girls [01:09:30] need to hear, I think. I think girls need to hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really, really. Yeah. So [01:09:35] I think there’s a I’ve always worry about, you know, like confidence and arrogance. And [01:09:40] even though they’re nothing like each other. Yeah. They’re in the same kind of ballpark. [01:09:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I hear you.

Payman Langroudi: They’re very different things. Right. But I’ve got [01:09:50] I’ve got one friend like he picks up his kids, like, big time. And I think it’s very [01:09:55] much, you know, like saying that. And then I asked him about it and he [01:10:00] said. He said, look, the world will break them down. Your job is to build them up, which is another [01:10:05] great way of looking at it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I think it’s.

Anushika Brogan: A great way of looking.

Payman Langroudi: At yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But [01:10:10] I don’t know, I, I my wife says you want to be their friend, not their father. [01:10:15]

[TRANSITION]: You know, the.

Anushika Brogan: Only, the only thing I would say is that if you are too, if [01:10:20] you’re too soft on your children, they don’t have any.

[TRANSITION]: Resilience. True.

Anushika Brogan: And resilience [01:10:25] is so important. It’s key, isn’t it? Like with children. I’ve just [01:10:30] seen a few examples of that where kids are so supported by their parents [01:10:35] that then they just they can’t cope with life. And you’re like, come on, you need to be able to cope [01:10:40] because like, stuff happens, right? Stuff happens all the time.

Payman Langroudi: So your kids [01:10:45] are proper privileged kids, right? Would you would you agree with that?

Anushika Brogan: I [01:10:50] mean, in theory, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Um, but have you ever had to do something [01:10:55] like in the bringing them up to sort of bring them back down to earth and.

[TRANSITION]: I.

Anushika Brogan: I [01:11:00] took a decision probably about 7 or 8 years ago where, [01:11:05] um, I felt like my kids were being a bit spoilt.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [01:11:10] right.

Anushika Brogan: And so I really cut everything in terms of spending, because [01:11:15] I think that sometimes it’s really difficult in, in, in a position where, like you’re a dentist [01:11:20] or anything because you do have more money than a lot of people and it’s like, it’s great. But when [01:11:25] your kids just don’t understand the value of money, it’s actually quite dangerous. Yeah. So, [01:11:30] um, my kids, until they were and this is this is quite embarrassing. [01:11:35] But I’m going to tell you anyway, my kids, until they were about 18, were wearing like, Primark clothes and stuff [01:11:40] because I’m like, do you know what they need to understand that, you know, a lot of their friends [01:11:45] are wearing designer stuff and this and that. And I’m just like, when you earn it, you can wear it.

[TRANSITION]: Right? [01:11:50]

Anushika Brogan: Because actually, like, you know, it’s fine, but you [01:11:55] have to go and make your mark on the world and life. I’ve done my bit, but [01:12:00] you have to do that. Then come back at some point, because I think it’s really important that they have [01:12:05] self-pride and they have hunger themselves, because otherwise they’ll just say, all right, mum’s done it. It’s [01:12:10] all right. Dad’s done it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, for instance, make them go get a job? [01:12:15] Have they ever done a job?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Both of them have done job. Both of them have. My [01:12:20] youngest one was a bit wild, right. So he used to like, you know, bring his friends around. He’s [01:12:25] broken trampolines in the garden. He’s gone and earned the money back.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: It’s gone and [01:12:30] worked in a barber’s and earnt the money back to pay for the trampoline. Yeah, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Quite like.

Anushika Brogan: That. Yeah, [01:12:35] yeah. They’re not just spoilt. Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to darker days, [01:12:40] okay. On this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Clinical [01:12:45] errors first.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because, you know, black box [01:12:50] thinking. Let’s listen to that book. The plane crashes. No one looks [01:12:55] for blame.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the black box and say this is what went wrong. Yeah. And they tell all [01:13:00] the pilots around the world this is what went wrong. So it doesn’t happen again.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But we don’t in in medical Dental [01:13:05] we hide our mistakes because blame is the key, that somehow people [01:13:10] we feel the system itself wants to blame someone. And so we tend to hide [01:13:15] our mistakes or not talk about them. Hence, I don’t learn from your mistake. You don’t learn from mine. The community [01:13:20] doesn’t learn from the mistakes.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So to buck that trend.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Any clinical. [01:13:25] What comes to mind when I say clinical error?

Anushika Brogan: I mean, once I, [01:13:30] I was very early on doing implants and I didn’t take the impression out early [01:13:35] enough and an impression got stuck in a patient’s mouth with an implant screw in it. That was.

[TRANSITION]: Bad. Oh, [01:13:40] nightmare.

Anushika Brogan: Oh, it was bad. I had to cut the impression tray, [01:13:45] cut the thing, and I was like, I just could not get it out. And it was so early [01:13:50] in my implant career. We’re talking like 15 years ago, and there was no one around doing [01:13:55] implants. I was there by myself. No one could help me. I had to just figure out how to do it. Luckily [01:14:00] I had a nice patient, but place implants?

[TRANSITION]: I used to really?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I [01:14:05] used to.

[TRANSITION]: Not anymore.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay. You cut it off like they take a long, [01:14:10] long time to.

Anushika Brogan: Cut it off. Took me like, an hour to cut it off.

Payman Langroudi: What did the patient say?

[TRANSITION]: She was. [01:14:15]

Anushika Brogan: Fine. She’s like one of my regulars. Thank God. One of these that been there for 20 years. Like she was fine. [01:14:20] I just said to her, I am so sorry. I’m learning at the moment. But, you know, I mean, it must have been really [01:14:25] uncomfortable. I gave her a massive discount off her implant. I was like.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, it’s not okay.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:14:30] that’s a good one to learn from. But go on, just explain it to someone who’s listening. What would you now look out [01:14:35] for like undercuts?

[TRANSITION]: Is that the point?

Anushika Brogan: No, it was just.

[TRANSITION]: Because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It went wrong. What didn’t [01:14:40] you see that you would see this time?

[TRANSITION]: So.

Anushika Brogan: So no. So basically, I’d not open the [01:14:45] door, you know, when you, um, so if you use the, uh, I think it’s open tray impression.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Right.

Anushika Brogan: So [01:14:50] you have to find the screw, don’t you?

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And so you have to find the screw so that you can unscrew [01:14:55] it.

[TRANSITION]: So I didn’t find the screw.

Anushika Brogan: Oh, right. And then the screw got stuck inside the impression. [01:15:00] And I had to literally cut it off. It took me ages to find the screw. And it set so [01:15:05] hard. And then it kept on setting and setting. It just got harder and harder. I was just like, oh, no. It [01:15:10] took me ages to actually unpick it. It was really bad.

[TRANSITION]: So that’s a goodie. I like that one. Yeah. [01:15:15] What about.

Payman Langroudi: Business mistake?

Anushika Brogan: Uh, business mistake [01:15:20] was going into business without understanding shareholding. I think if you are [01:15:25] ever doing shares with anybody, you need to understand what you’re getting yourself into because [01:15:30] there are too many instances. And actually, that was one of the things that [01:15:35] probably scared me about private equity as well, that, you know, they wanted 51% of my business, [01:15:40] but then majority shareholding, they can kick you out any time. So and I didn’t [01:15:45] I didn’t understand that at all. When I got into the into business with my ex mother in law, [01:15:50] she didn’t understand it.

Payman Langroudi: To check. Check your shareholding. [01:15:55]

[TRANSITION]: Check your shares. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And just like, get some advice from [01:16:00] someone who can actually tell you, like a lawyer or someone like that who will actually tell you properly what you’re getting [01:16:05] yourself into. Get independent advice. Because it’s hard, especially with family, because you feel [01:16:10] like they should know and what they’re telling you is right. But actually you do need to understand it because [01:16:15] there’s consequences, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So darkest [01:16:20] day.

Anushika Brogan: Darkest day was when.

Payman Langroudi: Dental darkest day. [01:16:25] Of course.

Anushika Brogan: Dental. Yeah. Dental darkest day. I think I was right in the middle of [01:16:30] my, um, divorce. And it was really, really stressful. Like, really [01:16:35] stressful. There was there was points where I was just like, you know, and I’m really strong person, [01:16:40] I think. And I was, you know, very, very anxious. And I had to run a practice [01:16:45] managers meeting. At that time, all my practice managers used to come to my house for my practice managers [01:16:50] meeting, you know, used to have tea and coffee and entertain. I walked in, burst into [01:16:55] tears, and I was like, I can’t do this today. And just had to walk [01:17:00] back out again. And do you know what? All my managers were amazing. Some of them were still with me now, [01:17:05] but you know, those ones who’ve seen me in that kind [01:17:10] of environment and then seen like, you know, how things have changed. [01:17:15] You know, they’re great because they’ve been there the whole journey.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you seem [01:17:20] like a very together person, right?

[TRANSITION]: Mentally, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like [01:17:25] to become as fit as you are, right? To run marathons and do Spartans and all that. It takes a [01:17:30] degree of training, right? Yeah. Have you had mental training? Have you had a counsellor? Have you [01:17:35] looked into.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I.

Anushika Brogan: Had I had therapy after my divorce.

[TRANSITION]: Did it help?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [01:17:40] it really helped a lot, a lot.

[TRANSITION]: And again, we.

Payman Langroudi: Need to normalise that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%. [01:17:45] You know, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s like, just like you go to a trainer. Yeah, to train [01:17:50] your muscles. Yeah. You need to train your brain. Yeah. And one thing that’s made a lot [01:17:55] of difference. Where I recommended therapy to a lot of people who I thought needed it. Right. I [01:18:00] wanted it to change it from need to want. Yeah. Number one and number two, [01:18:05] you know, it’s a there’s a spectrum right at the bottom of at the end of it. Let’s let’s [01:18:10] not beat about the bush. Loads of dentists kill themselves.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Loads [01:18:15] of dentists take their own lives.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. Yes they do.

Payman Langroudi: At the at the other full. Other end of it [01:18:20] is this super optimised dude. You know who’s doing like you like someone super [01:18:25] optimised here. And wherever you are in that, in that spectrum, [01:18:30] you can always move up. So. So, you know, the stigma of therapy [01:18:35] that is somehow incorrect. There’s a bunch of people, a bunch of CEOs [01:18:40] having training to become the best CEOs they can be, whatever it is. Optimisation.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, absolutely. And [01:18:45] I think I think the thing to remember is I wasn’t always like this. You know, I was I [01:18:50] was just a girl. And I came from the Isle of Sheppey. And actually, it’s been part of my journey where [01:18:55] I’ve always wanted to be a better version of myself. And whether that’s, you [01:19:00] know, training for something, whether it’s getting therapy, whether it’s pushing myself in business, like [01:19:05] I always want to be a better version of myself. And I think that that should be the goal, that if if [01:19:10] you feel like something’s not working out or something’s not right, you need to just try and work [01:19:15] out what you can do to make that better, you know? And it’s okay if it’s therapy, [01:19:20] if it’s medication, whatever it is, you know, you need to just go, I’ve got a problem, [01:19:25] but I can’t be the first person with this problem. Let me find the solution.

[TRANSITION]: You know [01:19:30] I like that.

Payman Langroudi: What what what sticks in your mind as the best course you went on or courses [01:19:35] that anything that sticks in your mind. As far as education.

Anushika Brogan: I really liked, um, I [01:19:40] did a course by a lab called frontier, um, back in the day. [01:19:45]

[TRANSITION]: And it was.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, they came here and did it.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Anushika Brogan: And so I’d [01:19:50] just randomly signed up to it.

[TRANSITION]: Veneers. Veneers. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: And it was during that period where everyone [01:19:55] was having veneers. But it was it was a small design course more than anything else. But it was [01:20:00] like a, you know, a program. It was brilliant. It really changed my life.

[TRANSITION]: Clicked for you.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, [01:20:05] really changed my clinical practice, really changed my clinical practice. And I felt so much more confident afterwards [01:20:10] doing stuff. Yeah, it was good. Really enjoyed.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Payman Langroudi: What about dentists [01:20:15] that you’ve looked up to?

[TRANSITION]: Um.

Anushika Brogan: Like clinicians. [01:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like I said, you’re one. You are one of my dental business heroes.

[TRANSITION]: You [01:20:25] really are. You really are.

Payman Langroudi: You Payman because of what you’ve achieved with. You know, I don’t [01:20:30] like this narrative about it’s harder for women than men outside of kids. When [01:20:35] you get kids into the equation. Well, yeah, of course it’s harder for women than men.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, but I think I think [01:20:40] it it definitely is. And I think it’s it’s more I think it’s difficult [01:20:45] for women generally. But I’m not a feminist. You know, I really [01:20:50] I think that, you know, if you want something bad enough, you can achieve it whether you’re a man or a woman. [01:20:55] And, you know, I like to give the men a run for their money rather than, you know, I don’t want [01:21:00] any special.

[TRANSITION]: Discounts for.

Anushika Brogan: Being a woman, you.

[TRANSITION]: Know?

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve had kids. What I’m saying is, you’re one of my heroes [01:21:05] in that respect.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Who are yours?

Payman Langroudi: And which dentist has inspired [01:21:10] you?

Anushika Brogan: I think probably the first practice owner I worked for. He inspired [01:21:15] me quite a lot. I think he’s probably, you know, the person who, like, [01:21:20] you know, pushed me on my journey.

Payman Langroudi: The value of that first boss. Right. The trajectory of that first [01:21:25] one. My first boss was an absolute hero. I’m still in touch with him. Wonderful guy. Yeah, there would be no enlightened [01:21:30] if it wasn’t for him. He had this thing about. Why not? Why not?

[TRANSITION]: Let’s just try it. Just do it. Just [01:21:35] try it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and, you know, we have to think about. You have to think about [01:21:40] this. The massive responsibility that you’ve got being the first boss of so many [01:21:45] dentists. Yeah, yeah. The first UK boss, let’s say. Yeah. Or the first boss. Right. [01:21:50] I’m sure you’re getting people out of it as well, right? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Ft plus one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Types. Massive [01:21:55] responsibility, man.

[TRANSITION]: It is, it is. Do you feel.

Payman Langroudi: The weight of it or.

[TRANSITION]: No. You don’t feel the weight of anything? No. [01:22:00]

Anushika Brogan: I love it. I’m a people’s person. So I feel like if I can [01:22:05] help people along the way, inspire them along the way, I’m really happy to do that.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:22:10] you were to bump into that, Anushka, who was in the middle of the divorce or [01:22:15] or in, in in dental school unhappy. What would [01:22:20] you say to her?

Anushika Brogan: Oh, [01:22:25] I don’t know. Because the thing is, like you can say, oh, [01:22:30] it’s all going to work out and you’ll be okay, but you don’t really believe it until it happens to you, [01:22:35] do you? You don’t. Like, I don’t think there are any words that you can say [01:22:40] to someone, you just have to kind of live it first. And actually, I needed to live that [01:22:45] trauma to make me stronger.

[TRANSITION]: So it’s very true.

Anushika Brogan: You know, there’s [01:22:50] not really any words that would console me at that point.

[TRANSITION]: I think it’s very true. [01:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an interesting question, right, that I think this question is very interesting. Let’s say I know [01:23:00] you said you don’t want to, but let’s say some Russian billionaire comes and gives you $100 million to leave. [01:23:05] Yeah. And you leave. Yeah, yeah. What do you end up doing the day [01:23:10] after? Right. What is that thing now you said about travel? Yeah. I don’t know, maybe you and your husband [01:23:15] go travel and whatever it is in your case, like walk the trail across the [01:23:20] Peru Inca Trail or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Then let’s [01:23:25] say what happens the next day? The next day? The next day? Yeah. It generally ends up as something quite simple. [01:23:30] Yeah. A simple, peaceful life with your family and friends and all that. Yeah. [01:23:35] And it makes you wonder, right? The question of Why can’t you just do that thing? Like. [01:23:40] And what you said is quite interesting because sometimes it takes that journey, [01:23:45] the ups and downs of trials and tribulations, to selling it for £100 million, to finally get it out of your [01:23:50] system, that you are this successful sibling or whatever, whatever the particular [01:23:55] mess up is in your head. Yeah. To then be relaxed enough [01:24:00] to do this super simple thing like, I don’t know, some one guy might want to sit on [01:24:05] the beach and write poems.

Anushika Brogan: See, I feel like I would get bored. [01:24:10]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, well.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever the thing is.

[TRANSITION]: For you. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: See, I think I think even now, like. So we’ve [01:24:15] got an apartment in France, and, like, we go there quite a lot because it’s like. It’s like a haven. It’s.

[TRANSITION]: So [01:24:20] you said you.

Payman Langroudi: Run, run and all that.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: So, like, you can run there, you can mountain bike there, you can ski there. It’s [01:24:25] really peaceful and I love it. But after a few weeks I’m like, I want to come home. I need [01:24:30] a bit of, you know, excitement and passion and chaos, like, you know, where’s things going [01:24:35] wrong? And people calling me and.

[TRANSITION]: Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve pondered on that for me. For me. I quite like sitting [01:24:40] by the pool with waiting for 2 or 3 emails. Yeah, I quite enjoyed that. [01:24:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I’m with my family.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe there’s a barbecue going on. There’s three important emails have to come in [01:24:50] that I’m that I’m trying to deal with. Yeah, that that combination of things to me [01:24:55] is quite. I’m kind of happy in that combination. Me too. But yeah, but you might be. No, you might be like, you want Monday morning, [01:25:00] meet the whole team. You know, some people are just more more into it [01:25:05] than others.

Anushika Brogan: I need a bit more of that and a bit more of that. So I [01:25:10] think I’m a bit more extreme.

[TRANSITION]: Maybe that’s what it is. Right, right. Yeah. Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:25:15] I really, really enjoyed this conversation and I really have, we’ve come [01:25:20] kind of to the end. Um we ended with the same questions. The [01:25:25] first one is a fantasy dinner party. Three guests [01:25:30] dead or alive. Who would you have.

Anushika Brogan: Um, And the [01:25:35] first one would definitely be my brother. Oh, I think, you know, I didn’t really get a chance to [01:25:40] talk to him and say everything that I wanted to say before [01:25:45] he passed away.

[TRANSITION]: When did he pass away?

Anushika Brogan: Passed away? Um, it would be 11 years this year. [01:25:50] Really? Suddenly had a brain haemorrhage. So that was quite sudden. And then, [01:25:55] um. Yeah, just kind of, I don’t know, just kind of slipped [01:26:00] really quickly. Um, he was really sweet, though. He’s really [01:26:05] sweet.

[TRANSITION]: So you had a.

Payman Langroudi: Good relationship with him before that.

[TRANSITION]: Happened? Yeah. I mean.

Anushika Brogan: When [01:26:10] we were younger, we didn’t. We fought.

[TRANSITION]: Like dogs.

Anushika Brogan: But as we got older, definitely. And, you know, one of [01:26:15] the I think, I think partly one of the things that is things that really pushed me along is [01:26:20] when the last visit that I made to him in hospital, the last time he spoke, [01:26:25] he had a nurse who was doing changing some dressings or something of his. And, [01:26:30] um, he pulled the curtain around and I said to him, I’m just [01:26:35] going to wait outside. And he was telling the nurse, have you seen my sister? That’s my sister outside. [01:26:40] She’s a business tycoon, like, you know, you could tell he was proud of me and he’d never [01:26:45] said it. He would never say it to my face. Not ever. Ever. But, you know, like that just carries me quite [01:26:50] a lot. But I just feel like I would love to talk to him again. I’d love to speak to him again. [01:26:55] It’s quite hard. So he’d be one second. One would be Elon Musk, because [01:27:00] I find the guy absolutely fascinating, I find him, I don’t know, people [01:27:05] love him or hate him, but I just find him fascinating and I just like to just spend an evening [01:27:10] talking to him and understanding him a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: He’s extraordinary.

Anushika Brogan: Extraordinary.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time [01:27:15] he’s been invited to this.

[TRANSITION]: To this dinner party. No. He comes. He comes regularly.

Payman Langroudi: Regular [01:27:20] attendance in this sport.

Anushika Brogan: And the third one is Huberman. Have [01:27:25] you come across him? Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Of course.

Anushika Brogan: Really, really fascinating. I just find him because I’m interested [01:27:30] in, like, health and Optimisation. Yes, yes, I just think he’s amazing. [01:27:35] So I started listening.

[TRANSITION]: He’s very clever as well. Very clever. So clever. Yeah, yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Just even. [01:27:40] And he breaks everything down into like, you know, so people can understand it. I love that, I love that about.

[TRANSITION]: Did [01:27:45] you listen.

Payman Langroudi: To his Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Episode? No.

Payman Langroudi: He’s done a whole episode on Dental. Has he?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I haven’t yet.

Anushika Brogan: I [01:27:50] haven’t yet. I’ve only just like, you know, just started listening to all his stuff because I don’t get a lot of time, so. But I find him [01:27:55] fascinating because he’s doing a lot of stuff on, you know, how alcohol affects the body, how sleep and, [01:28:00] you know, all of that kind of stuff is really interesting, I like that.

[TRANSITION]: I know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know, this doesn’t happen often [01:28:05] yet, but if you had half a day to yourself, what would you.

[TRANSITION]: Do? Go shopping. Oh, really? Every time. Really? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Is that your release?

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I love shopping. Is that your guilty pleasure?

Anushika Brogan: Yeah. Yeah, I love shopping. I’m a shopaholic. [01:28:15] Love it.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. It’s [01:28:20] a deathbed question. You’re on your deathbed, surrounded [01:28:25] by everyone you love. What are three pieces [01:28:30] of advice you’d leave for them?

Anushika Brogan: Um. [01:28:35] I suppose it would be. [01:28:40] Don’t forget to work hard. That’d be one thing. Work hard. I think it’s really [01:28:45] important in life to work hard and have focus. Um, but I [01:28:50] think family are really important for me. I think always my family [01:28:55] have been so important, and they still are. And I think that that would be the [01:29:00] most important thing for me, um, to pass on to them as a family value. [01:29:05] Like, you know, just make sure you prioritise your family over everything else. Um, [01:29:10] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But your ex was prioritising his family over everything else that was [01:29:15] causing the problem.

Anushika Brogan: I think it your nucleus, [01:29:20] as in, like your immediate family. Like, you know, your nucleus should be, you know. So [01:29:25] if you’re married, then.

[TRANSITION]: Your your nuclear family. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: Your nuclear family. Like, you know, my son’s got a girlfriend. Like I [01:29:30] want him to prioritise her. Doesn’t need to worry about me. He needs to prioritise her. She should be the most important person [01:29:35] in his life.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay.

[TRANSITION]: Um. Got it. Yeah.

Anushika Brogan: That. And then. [01:29:40] And not like, I feel like it’s really important not to let [01:29:45] people down. I feel like, you know, if someone relies.

[TRANSITION]: On you, be reliable.

Anushika Brogan: Trust [01:29:50] you. Yeah. It’s important not to let people down.

Payman Langroudi: See, that’s an interesting [01:29:55] one. Yeah, because it implies you’ve got a choice in the matter and then you choose to be reliable. [01:30:00] Yeah, but some people just are and some people just aren’t. And [01:30:05] sometimes it’s not their choice.

Anushika Brogan: I disagree, [01:30:10] I think you you can choose to be reliable. Why do you think people can’t be reliable?

Payman Langroudi: Some people just [01:30:15] are and some people just aren’t. I think my two kids, you know, the.

Anushika Brogan: Children are [01:30:20] not children, but.

[TRANSITION]: Children.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a character, character type I.

Anushika Brogan: But I think [01:30:25] you can, you can, You can try and be reliable.

[TRANSITION]: Try and be.

Payman Langroudi: More reliable [01:30:30] than the day before.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, you should.

Anushika Brogan: Try and be. And I think, like, you know, you have to be taught [01:30:35] to be reliable. You do have to be taught to be reliable. But like, you know, if someone needs you, you show up, right? [01:30:40] Like, you know, my.

[TRANSITION]: Dad, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Really interesting, right? Because the three things that you’re saying are all [01:30:45] things that are outside yourself. Yeah. You know, look out for family, be [01:30:50] reliable, kind of work hard. Okay. Work hard. But it’s it [01:30:55] seems to me like you get most of your pleasure from serving others. [01:31:00]

[TRANSITION]: Maybe.

Anushika Brogan: Maybe I [01:31:05] spend a lot of time serving others. I think, um.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:31:10] it’s amazing to be around, right? It’s amazing to have that person in your life. But, you know, there [01:31:15] is a downside to that as well, to bear in mind, to bear in mind. Yeah, but [01:31:20] you know what they call it people pleasing or whatever it is.

Anushika Brogan: Yeah, I think I’ll have my time. [01:31:25] I think it’s just not right now. I think that at the moment I’m in that sandwich [01:31:30] kind of era where, you know, I’ve got kids who need me, I’ve got parents.

[TRANSITION]: Who need me. You look.

Payman Langroudi: Super [01:31:35] happy. So there’s no as long as you’re happy, everything else is happy. Everything else can, can, can [01:31:40] piss off, right?

[TRANSITION]: Long as you’re happy.

Anushika Brogan: But I think. I think you know, my, my, like I think [01:31:45] it’s about balance. And I think it’s about like, you know, prioritising balance at the moment. Like, my parents really [01:31:50] need me right now. So my priority is to be there for my parents. You know, my dad’s elderly, like, [01:31:55] you know, my mom’s having a hard time because he’s like, not very well. That’s my priority right now. [01:32:00] And actually, if I spend a little bit less time with my kids right now, they have to understand because nanny [01:32:05] and nanny need me, you know? So it’s about balance. And I think for me, [01:32:10] being reliable, for whether it’s my children, whether it’s my kids, whether it’s my best friends, like, you know, [01:32:15] be a reliable person, I think. And if you’re not reliable, I think people just I don’t know. That’s [01:32:20] not the values I would like to impart on my children.

[TRANSITION]: That was the question. That was the.

Payman Langroudi: Question. [01:32:25] That was the question. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve learnt loads again. [01:32:30]

[TRANSITION]: Have you?

Payman Langroudi: I really have. I really have. You’re an enigma. Really inspirational.

[TRANSITION]: Thank [01:32:35] you so much. Thank you so much for coming all the way. Thank you for having me.

Anushika Brogan: It’s been wonderful.

[VOICE]: This [01:32:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:32:45] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:32:50] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:32:55] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:33:00] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:33:05] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:33:10]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:33:15] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:33:20] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health and [00:00:15] optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone and welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. We have the privilege of speaking [00:00:30] to the incredibly talented Chinta miller. She is known around the world as a top makeup [00:00:35] artist. Chinta has created unforgettable looks for countless celebrities, but her journey goes beyond [00:00:40] the beauty industry. We actually met through a celebrity slash influencer. But anyways, she’s [00:00:45] faced some profound personal challenges, from a sudden loss in her family to overcoming difficult [00:00:50] relationships, all while building a remarkable career. Importantly as well, [00:00:55] she’s gone through her own fertility journey, which I want to talk about today. We’re here to dive deeper into his story, exploring [00:01:00] resilience, passion and strength to where she is today. Welcome, Chinta.

Cinta Miller: Hi. Hi. [00:01:05] How’s it going, guys?

Rhona Eskander: Good, good. I’m so happy to have you. So Payman [00:01:10] always asks, like, how do you know these people? What are they about, etc.. So I’ll give a little summary. Chinta and I met at [00:01:15] a birthday party from somebody who was on Love Island. That’s friends with Chinta. And she’s friends [00:01:20] with me too. And it was like love at first sight. I was like, this girl’s energy is amazing. She’s [00:01:25] infectious and she’s wonderful. And then the more I got to know you, I recognised that you were really this beacon [00:01:30] of strength and resilience from the things that have happened to you. So I like to start a little [00:01:35] bit from the beginning. But before I do, do you want to just tell everyone about I know you do your makeup artist [00:01:40] as your kind of career, but what else do you do?

Cinta Miller: Um, so my [00:01:45] career has been, um, it’s such a multifaceted role, [00:01:50] actually, because when you are a makeup artist, which I have been for 25 years, um, [00:01:55] and I predominantly work in music and TV and fashion and that kind of thing. When you [00:02:00] work with such high profile people, you’re given this level of responsibility and you, you build connections [00:02:05] very quickly and, um, a level of trust, and especially when you’re starting [00:02:10] with people from the bottom up or the ground up, I like to say ground up. Um, what [00:02:15] then happens is you then see the stepping stones of growth and [00:02:20] I’ve absorbed them, learnt them. And as the industry’s changed, like 20 [00:02:25] years ago when I started doing makeup, people weren’t posting stuff on. I didn’t even have a mobile phone 20 years ago [00:02:30] to assist people. I was going to phone boxes and harassing agencies for me to assist. [00:02:35] Um, nowadays it’s like, you know, it went from that to then working [00:02:40] and having stuff in print, in magazines, and now it’s like things aren’t very rarely, you know, a very rarely in print. Now it’s [00:02:45] on social media. Um, but still, the stepping stones of growth in my career [00:02:50] are the people’s careers have been something I’ve absorbed, and it’s something I’ve really enjoyed doing. [00:02:55] And after a lot of self-doubt, [00:03:00] um, and [00:03:05] imposter syndrome and also back [00:03:10] handed comments from other people, if I’m honest. Yeah. Um, learning to overcome all of that, [00:03:15] I was like, actually, my dream role is to be in music and in [00:03:20] music management and to learn all these skills that I’ve learned to grow an artist, a [00:03:25] music artist, but to be on the management front as well, and to have way more responsibility [00:03:30] and opinion and say, I always felt like I had opinion and sound stuff, and [00:03:35] it was kind of always overlooked because I was just the make up artist. So I’m like, actually, that’s [00:03:40] my passion, so let’s do it. And so I do that as well now.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. So you’re actually in music [00:03:45] management now?

Cinta Miller: Yes, I’m in music management as well. Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Before we jump to who she treats and everything like that, I know you want to jump to [00:03:50] those questions. I want to ask you a little bit about your childhood. Tell us a bit about where you grew up, what your family [00:03:55] are like.

Cinta Miller: So I grew up in a town in [00:04:00] Buckinghamshire called Aylesbury. I went to a school with the worst [00:04:05] reputation or horrendous reputation. Um, [00:04:10] state school. And I came out with all A’s. I [00:04:15] was a dork, but I was really popular at the same time. Um, I just think if [00:04:20] a child is bright, they’re going to find their way. And I [00:04:25] feel that the reason why I kind of had that fire in my belly is because I was the youngest of five as well. [00:04:30] Um, my family are Italian. My mum was a single mum, [00:04:35] um, until she remarried when I was six years old. Um, with five children. [00:04:40]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Cinta Miller: My mum was a single mum with five children. My dad actually got killed in an accident one [00:04:45] month after I was born, so I was born on the 12th of March. My dad died on the [00:04:50] 12th of April. Um, so I didn’t grow up knowing my dad at all. Although [00:04:55] I have a very good relationship with my dad’s family in Italy. My stepdad, I [00:05:00] would never say, this is my stepdad. He’s he’s my dad. He’s an amazing person. But up until the age of six [00:05:05] years old, it. My mum was a single mum and I very much remember those days. I remember [00:05:10] my sisters babysitting for me and my brothers babysitting for me. I remember my. I remember my brothers [00:05:15] being really strict with me as a kid and saying, you know, you’ve got to do good at school. You’ve got to. [00:05:20] I felt like I had more people at home to impress. So even though I loved being [00:05:25] popular at school, it was also very important to me to be popular at home [00:05:30] and made my life easier because my mum was very strict. We had a great [00:05:35] relationship with my mum, was very, very strict and I feel that that’s she had no other [00:05:40] way really. She was a mum of five children living in a [00:05:45] council house on a minimum wage. Yeah. Very proud. [00:05:50] She had to be strict to kind of do her best. Um, [00:05:55] so I did what I felt like I had to do to do my best as well. Um, did [00:06:00] very well at school. I still have a really good friendship with some of my teachers from school. Yeah. Um, [00:06:05] but, yeah, that was it.

Rhona Eskander: Did you go on to do GCSEs and A-levels?

Cinta Miller: Um, I [00:06:10] got all A’s in my GCSEs, a couple of A’s stars thrown in there, very creative courses. [00:06:15] I got the a stars for like drama, art. I was always very creative. I was one of those kids that because [00:06:20] my mum was strict, I was always in my bedroom at like 7 p.m. and so I used [00:06:25] to make my own magazines, write my own articles, cut things out of magazines, make my own fashion magazine. [00:06:30] Um, you know, write some words out. And [00:06:35] I was always thinking, oh, this is what I want to do when I’m older. I want to do some sort of makeup [00:06:40] or editing or be in fashion. And if I look at my career now, I’ve pretty much ticked [00:06:45] the boxes. I have done all of them. I’ve worked in fashion, I’ve worked in music, I’ve presented on TV [00:06:50] shows. I’ve done a bit of everything, so it kind of was definitely born there [00:06:55] for sure. Um, but yeah, [00:07:00] from and then from there I went on to, I did go to fashion college. I went to London College [00:07:05] of Fashion. Um, and from there [00:07:10] went to go on to do a degree at Saint Martins. And it was because [00:07:15] whilst I was at fashion college, I did a little bit of makeup. I did a tiny [00:07:20] makeup course and I was like, actually, I always thought makeup was something a beautician did, and then didn’t realise [00:07:25] that a beautician and a makeup artist were two different jobs. And then from there was just like [00:07:30] calling up people, messaging people to assist them, started assisting and was like, actually, [00:07:35] I could go to uni and get a job on a makeup counter at somewhere like Mac, [00:07:40] instead of getting a job at a bar or being a stripper.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that.

Cinta Miller: Basically, that [00:07:45] was the truth. And then I just didn’t end up going to uni. I ended up being a makeup artist, [00:07:50] going to work for Toni and Guy as a makeup artist, and then ended up learning hair. And [00:07:55] then the rest is history.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. How did your mum, as a strict Italian [00:08:00] mother, cope with that?

Cinta Miller: Do you know what? One thing about my mum [00:08:05] is that my mum, as radical as she was being [00:08:10] strict, she gave the best advice. And the number one thing that she always [00:08:15] said to me was, I know it’s going to sound mental. She used to go, who cares if [00:08:20] you’re being the best version of yourself? Who cares who gives a shit? If I go to my mum [00:08:25] about a problem? I go, mum. She’d go, who gives a shit? [00:08:30] And I’d be like, you’re right. Who does give a shit? Um, and I remember saying to my mum, I don’t, I [00:08:35] don’t think I’m going to do this. I’m gonna be a hairdresser and a makeup artist. [00:08:40] And my mum was like, ah, who gives a shit about a degree? If you’re gonna go and be a hairdresser, just make sure [00:08:45] I don’t catch you down the high street Mhm. Where we live. We’re in a hairdresser. Go and be the [00:08:50] best hairdresser you can possibly be. I was like cool. And that’s what I did. My mom was just like, just go [00:08:55] and be the best version of what you can be.

Rhona Eskander: And so [00:09:00] I know as well. So did your siblings also follow suit? Did your siblings also end up doing really well? [00:09:05]

Cinta Miller: So I’m the youngest of five. My brothers and sisters are all [00:09:10] very different. You couldn’t have five more different siblings. [00:09:15] Unfortunately, my eldest sibling passed away. She [00:09:20] my, we’ve lost my mum now and I will get to that. But not long after my mum passed. [00:09:25] My sister passed quite soon after. Um, but my [00:09:30] next eldest sister, early on in her career, [00:09:35] she was a massive inspiration to me because she was she was 12 years older than me. [00:09:40] She was living in London. She was a dancer. She was, you know, I’d turn on TV, she was on top of the pops, and [00:09:45] there were shows like The Word, and she’d be on that as a dancer and I’d be like, wow, my sister’s amazing, and all my [00:09:50] friends are like, your sister was on TV. And I’d be like, yeah, I know my sister was on TV when she was like 15 on this, like [00:09:55] big dance competition, um, on the BBC. And from then she was kind of [00:10:00] like a little like local celebrity and then went on to be like a dancer and then worked at a film [00:10:05] production company, and then actually got me a summer job when I was 14 at this film production company. And [00:10:10] yeah, so I owe a lot to her. But now, you know, she moved back [00:10:15] home. She’s got a little boy, she retrained. She’s um, she retrained in, um, [00:10:20] counselling and social working. And now she is, um, she works with kids with [00:10:25] special needs and naughty kids in, in the school we went to, in the school that I went to, my sister works [00:10:30] there. So she’s there. My brother was I had one I’ve [00:10:35] got two brothers, but one brother, um, was a builder. Met [00:10:40] a girl when he was on holiday in Australia. Muslim girl changed religion [00:10:45] and is now an imam in the mosque.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Cinta Miller: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a story. [00:10:50]

Cinta Miller: I know that. And then my other brother is just [00:10:55] the brother that is just chilled, calm. Doesn’t [00:11:00] want anything. Doesn’t need to do anything. He’s happy in his own little skin. Doesn’t [00:11:05] really like going out. Just really likes being home, watching TV, having three meals a day. Making [00:11:10] sure that I’m okay. Checks in with me. Checks in with my husband. My husband’s his best [00:11:15] mate. He loves him.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they say. They say that’s it. They say billionaires tend [00:11:20] to be fourth and fifth kids. Because what ends up happening is [00:11:25] what ends up happening is the first kid they I don’t know. She says something clever [00:11:30] and the parents say, you’re you’re the clever one. Then the second kid, the clever, is taken now. Yeah. The [00:11:35] second kid comes along, kicks the ball, and they say, oh, you’re the sporty one. Third kid says something funny. Oh, you’re the [00:11:40] funny one. And by the time you get to the fourth and fifth, If all that normal stuff’s been taken. [00:11:45] And so you’ve got to kind of invent something. You’ve got to find a way. It’s not going.

Cinta Miller: To be the rich one.

Payman Langroudi: Shining, [00:11:50] and they’re going to be the rich one. Not not necessarily, but billionaires end up thinking outside of [00:11:55] the box.

Cinta Miller: The entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely me.

Payman Langroudi: So does that resonate?

Cinta Miller: Definitely me. And [00:12:00] funny you should say that. Like, every single time she’s going to kill me for saying this. Or she might love it, actually. [00:12:05] Um, every single time I speak to my sister Mel, she’s [00:12:10] always like, I’ve got a business idea for you. And she’ll tell me the idea. And I know because [00:12:15] she’s she always wants to do different things. She’ll tell me the idea. Not necessarily. [00:12:20] And I think not necessarily just because it’s she. She [00:12:25] sounds the idea out because she knows. I’ll tell her straight whether it’s going to be right or wrong, [00:12:30] or whether it could be successful or not. And she’ll know that. [00:12:35] I’ll play devil’s advocate and I’ll play devil’s advocate because I’ve got her back. So like she said [00:12:40] to me the other day, oh, I’ve got a business proposition for you. What about if we do this, this and this? Well, I’ll tell you what. That’s not going to work, because I already [00:12:45] do it here, and I already do it there. And you need to think that I’ve already got this network of people, [00:12:50] and you’d need to build that network of people for yourself. But how about this? Um. [00:12:55] And I do like applying myself to different job roles, [00:13:00] and I don’t because I’m successful at other roles. If [00:13:05] I fail at others, I’ve got the safety net of the things that are working.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean.

Cinta Miller: I can take [00:13:10] more of a risk.

Rhona Eskander: I think the ad thing. Right. As in, like I told you, I have to multitask [00:13:15] and do like 20 things at once. I mean, my, my, um, members of staff joke [00:13:20] because they say that Rona abandons a sentence halfway. I mean, I do that to Laura as well. Who does [00:13:25] like the enlightened abandon a sentence halfway because I’m bored of that sentence, basically. And then [00:13:30] people are left guessing, you know? But it’s the thing is, like, we get to actually today, my husband was [00:13:35] making fun of me because I had like an affirmations playlist playing on Spotify. And he [00:13:40] goes, have you sped it up? And I was like, oh yeah, I did that because, like, it was too slow to get out what [00:13:45] the person needed to get out.

Payman Langroudi: And I got some affirmations. Playlist. Um, so you’re beautiful. [00:13:50] You’re so. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So basically I’ve changed my morning routine. And I think that [00:13:55] that has really helped my mental health. Um, so what I do is the first thing that [00:14:00] I do when I get up is I take 20 breaths, um, like, you know, out, um, [00:14:05] in through the mouth, out through the nose, that kind of thing. And I don’t look at my phone. Right. So my phone’s in the other room. [00:14:10] Then I go into the bathroom and do, like, all my skin care, etc., and [00:14:15] I’ll have an affirmations playlist. So it depends on what I’m feeling. But it was like, you are [00:14:20] strong, you are beautiful, you are healthy, blah blah blah and it plays on a loop. I think it has [00:14:25] an effect on your neuroplasticity because the thing is, is I’ve been doing it for like a month or two now. Obviously, I think, [00:14:30] you know, imagine like that in the background whilst you’re doing stuff instead of like, you are fat, you [00:14:35] are ugly, you are worthless. Like surely that’s going to have an effect on your brain. And [00:14:40] then I’ll journal. Then I’ll like take my. Does that.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, does that you write what you did.

Rhona Eskander: Yesterday? No [00:14:45] not yesterday I write what has what’s coming up for me on my mind. And it’s like a stream of consciousness. [00:14:50] It’s not even something that’s super curated. Yeah. And then I get ready [00:14:55] and by the time I leave the house, from the moment I’ve woken up, I haven’t looked at my [00:15:00] phone for 40 minutes to an hour from the moment that I’ve woken up. And now I just look at my phone as I’m leaving the house [00:15:05] and it’s changed the game for me.

Cinta Miller: See, it’s funny you should say that because not [00:15:10] that I can’t do that. I can, but.

Rhona Eskander: I used to [00:15:15] think, I.

Cinta Miller: Can’t, I don’t have I genuinely from the moment I get up, [00:15:20] I feel like I don’t really have the freedom to do all of those things. [00:15:25] So I used to.

Rhona Eskander: Think that why.

Payman Langroudi: Why, why.

Rhona Eskander: I just get up earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Have you got.

Cinta Miller: Kids? Right. So but no, [00:15:30] no kids. So the thing is. Yeah. So now what? I’ve started doing very [00:15:35] similar to you in some ways the trick is you have to get up earlier. [00:15:40] The only way you are not going to get intervened, [00:15:45] what I call it is what I call it is railroaded. I [00:15:50] always feel like sometimes I’m doing stuff and somebody comes in and railroads me in the middle of doing something, and [00:15:55] it’s like their situation is more important and you carry on and then this [00:16:00] person’s more like, my kid is sick or this is happening or that’s happening or, oh, I need you to do this, or can you [00:16:05] proofread this for you and you? And actually that’s ego because you feel like, oh, these people need me. So you kind of end up [00:16:10] doing that. But what you do is do a massive disservice to yourself. You need to do your own shit first. Are you [00:16:15] a people pleaser? Yes, massively. And I’m trying not to be a people pleaser because I fucking hate being [00:16:20] a people pleaser. I love people some.

Rhona Eskander: Has a massive negative effect on your immune [00:16:25] system.

Cinta Miller: I love, I love people, and I really, I really champion people, and [00:16:30] I really want people to do well. And I think there’s enough good energy, enough work, Enough [00:16:35] everything for everybody in this world, right? But [00:16:40] some I’ve noticed. I’ve realised that giving too much of myself [00:16:45] at the wrong time has been very detrimental to me. So I don’t know if you even saw I had [00:16:50] this huge operation about 6 or 7 weeks ago, and after this operation [00:16:55] I had to take some time off and I was like, actually, I’m going to start this thing [00:17:00] that’s called, I started this thing I’ve been doing on Instagram, and I haven’t even made [00:17:05] myself go on Instagram every day because I’m like, it’s okay, I don’t have to post this on Instagram [00:17:10] every day. But I did put it on there to give myself some level of accountability as I’m doing this thing called 365 [00:17:15] and 365 means for 365 days, I have to take one hour [00:17:20] a day. That is purely for me. And if it means that hour is off my phone for [00:17:25] an hour and not on social media going, it’s my 365 and I’m off my phone, then I’m not going to post it because [00:17:30] some people have messaged me going, well, we hope you haven’t posted anything for a few days. I’m like, yeah, because I’m having a digital detox [00:17:35] and that’s what I need to feel better. But, um, going [00:17:40] back to what you were saying, the trick is definitely you get up early in the morning, and I’ve.

Rhona Eskander: Been your [00:17:45] morning. I really think that, you know, um, I’m reading a book called Smarter by Emily [00:17:50] Austin. She sent me the book, and she has an incredibly successful PR agency, [00:17:55] and the book gives a smarter way to, um, [00:18:00] become successful. And it really resonates, especially for women, because she said, for [00:18:05] so many years, you know, you read books about like, just sleep for five hours or do as [00:18:10] much as you can or ram in. And she actually completely refutes all of that. And I [00:18:15] totally agree as well, because I used to be like, right, 5 a.m. club, like, you know, like exercise, [00:18:20] do this, do this, do 100 things before 9 a.m. and I’m like, no, it doesn’t work for my body. I was [00:18:25] unhappy, unhealthy and burnt out, which is pretty much what happens to a lot of women. But she says owning your morning, [00:18:30] whatever that looks like to you personally is that. And that doesn’t mean doing [00:18:35] like a crazy exercise class or doing, but it is certain little things. And [00:18:40] I think those habits for me, I will exercise every morning, but it doesn’t need to be something [00:18:45] crazy. So that helps me. For some people it doesn’t, but it helps me.

Cinta Miller: So what I’ve been doing [00:18:50] is either before I go to bed at night or when I get get up in the morning, [00:18:55] one of two things, or I do them both is I’ve been just literally going on YouTube, putting [00:19:00] in stoic meditations. Yeah. And doing, um, really listening [00:19:05] to stoicism. I don’t know if you know anything about that. So I’ve really been listening to stoicism and [00:19:10] just mantras of like and actually thinking about it now. It really [00:19:15] resonates with my mum because it’s like nothing matters. Don’t worry. It’s just like, don’t sweat the small stuff [00:19:20] and be positive about yourself and that affirmations and have that moment of calm [00:19:25] and I sometimes I like listening to it before I go to bed at night, because it will resonate [00:19:30] with things that has happened during the day, especially the Liam and I will listen to it together at night before [00:19:35] we go to bed and we’re both like, oh, actually, you know, we’re just moaning about that in the car. And actually, this is how we should approach it. [00:19:40] You know, it was just moaning about this.

Cinta Miller: And, you know, this has just taken me aback. And I feel like I get the answers. [00:19:45] I just put one on at random. I leave it to the fate, I leave it to the universe, and [00:19:50] I do that. And then in the morning I will get up early. I’ll make a herbal tea. [00:19:55] I’ll sit on my sit on my sofa, put a blanket around me, and then I’ll listen to a bit of [00:20:00] a meditation, a stoic meditation, and do breathwork. Um, and [00:20:05] it would just be for ten minutes and then I will go for a walk. [00:20:10] I live in like a beautiful little village, and it will consist of walking ten [00:20:15] times around the block or once around the block, but I will just get some steps in to get my body moving [00:20:20] and then I’ll go home, have a shower, get ready, and then plan my day. And that [00:20:25] is what I’ve been doing since I’ve had my operation. And I feel so much better. My [00:20:30] I feel like I feel like the inflammation in my body is, like, gone [00:20:35] down. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You’ve mentioned your mom a few times. Um, tell us a little bit about your [00:20:40] mom and what happened. And, you know, you are this beacon of positivity and happiness, and obviously, your story [00:20:45] touched me, so.

Cinta Miller: So my mom, my mom was an incredible woman. She was like, as I said, [00:20:50] strict woman, tough woman. But I can categorically tell you now, [00:20:55] no one was funnier than my mum. My mum was pure jokes and that’s what I miss the most. [00:21:00] She was really funny. Um, but I literally spoke to her [00:21:05] one morning. I was going to look at a house and. And I just [00:21:10] for some reason, at one point in my life, I was like, I want to live near the beach. So I decided to go and look [00:21:15] at houses on the coast. And I was like, yeah, I’m going today. And she was like, I’ll make sure there’s a balcony [00:21:20] for me, you know, make sure there’s a room for me. I want a balcony with a sea view. And I was like, yeah, I’ll let you know. And [00:21:25] I walked into this house and it was, it wasn’t for me. And I was like, oh, my mom would hate this. And [00:21:30] as I walked out, I had a missed call from my brother and [00:21:35] my and then a message. And the moment my brother left me a message, I knew something had happened because my brother never leaves [00:21:40] me a message. He’d never phoned me during the day and he’d never leave me a message. It was always a text [00:21:45] and I was like, something’s wrong. And I called my. My brother left me a message and [00:21:50] was like, you need to come home.

Cinta Miller: And I just I knew instantly. And basically my mom had a pulmonary pulmonary [00:21:55] embolism, which basically a blood clot. And the thing was, she had [00:22:00] complained about this pain in her leg and foot about a month before, [00:22:05] and it was really bad. She was like, I’ve never felt pain like it. And we went to the doctors and the doctor was like, [00:22:10] you know, you’ve got arthritis in your knees. It’s probably that you’ve got to lose a bit of weight. And she was like, [00:22:15] yeah, but I’m trying. But this pain is different. And they were like, we’ll send you to the hospital. I went to the hospital. Oh, [00:22:20] we haven’t got the right iodine to put through to give you a scan. Come back tomorrow. Went back the next day. Oh, [00:22:25] we can’t find a vein to put the iodine in. Come back the next day. By the time my mum actually had the scan, [00:22:30] they did the scan on her leg and I haven’t got a blood clot. You’re fine. It’s your arthritis. And then three days later, [00:22:35] my mum was having breakfast with my dad, and my dad basically said that [00:22:40] he’d made her like egg and soldiers, which was very [00:22:45] rare because my mum cooks. Morning, noon and night. So my dad cooked my mum breakfast was really rare [00:22:50] and my mum had said to him that was really nice, at least I know if I die you can cook. [00:22:55]

Cinta Miller: And he and he went behave and my mum put the [00:23:00] like the plate down, went to go into the bathroom and went Paul. And then [00:23:05] my Paul had this huge bang and my mum had just hit the deck and [00:23:10] died. That was it. She was gone and my stepdad was just [00:23:15] there, didn’t know what to do, called my brother. My brother came, air ambulance came, landed [00:23:20] outside the house and my mum was gone. And by the time I got [00:23:25] there, my mum, it was awful. Like, I remember being by the coast and having [00:23:30] to drive all the way back home and it was like rush hour traffic and it was just awful. [00:23:35] And I got there and my mum was was still there and [00:23:40] I beat myself up quite a lot because actually the last time I physically [00:23:45] saw her and spent time with her was Boxing Day. She died at the beginning [00:23:50] of February was Boxing Day and Boxing Day. I left to go skiing with my friends and [00:23:55] my mum was like, why do you want to go skiing for? And I was like, I don’t know, something’s doing it. It’s a laugh. And she was like, [00:24:00] all right. And actually, I wish I’d just stayed and spent more time with my family at Christmas. [00:24:05] Um, but I guess it was just her [00:24:10] time.

Rhona Eskander: So, I mean, I know we’ve had. How did that affect you at that time [00:24:15] in your life? Kind of like emotionally and mentally.

Cinta Miller: At that time, [00:24:20] I went into fight or flight 100% I can. I [00:24:25] can categorically tell you, minus a handful of my friends. [00:24:30] No one really asked me how I was, how I was feeling because I had at [00:24:35] that point of my relationship, I had such a close relationship with my mum. There was like a few [00:24:40] family things that were going on, and as the youngest, I [00:24:45] kind of got burdened with this huge responsibility that I feel like a lot of people [00:24:50] in my family felt like I’d asked for, and I definitely didn’t ask for it. I was like, I’m [00:24:55] the youngest. I’ve had the least time with mum. Out of all of you guys, you’ve all been on this planet longer. [00:25:00] I feel too young to have lost my mum. I was [00:25:05] only 30, 31. I feel too young to be without my mum [00:25:10] and I don’t have children. I’m not married [00:25:15] and I just felt like I was going to do a lot of the things, my life, things [00:25:20] on my own, even though I had my family, but I wasn’t. I really didn’t have my biological dad. [00:25:25]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Cinta Miller: So I kind of then got burdened with this responsibility, [00:25:30] this family responsibility. And I felt like I had to step [00:25:35] up to what my mom wanted me to do. And it was like organising a funeral, organising the will, doing this, doing [00:25:40] that. And it was a lot of pressure and I didn’t really felt. I didn’t really [00:25:45] feel that. I didn’t feel looked after. [00:25:50] I felt like my safety net or this safety blanket that we all have from [00:25:55] our parents just got pulled from underneath my feet, and I felt like I was just I’d been thrown out of a plane, [00:26:00] basically. I felt like I was like, flapping my arms, trying to stay up in the air and nobody [00:26:05] could see me flapping my arms. And it was from that point there that I developed [00:26:10] anxiety. I’d never had anxiety before, but from that point then I definitely developed anxiety. [00:26:15] Um, and it wasn’t until a year [00:26:20] later when I went through another bad experience. My sister, then my eldest [00:26:25] sister, then got cancer. I then met a guy, went through an awful relationship, [00:26:30] and he put me through the mill and the stress levels and my my adrenal fatigue, the stress levels, [00:26:35] the mitochondria depletion just affected me so badly, [00:26:40] and I was so depleted that I actually remember being on my bedroom floor and my friend [00:26:45] coming in and going, like, what are you doing? And I’d been there for three days. And she was like, I’ve been trying to call [00:26:50] you. Like what? And she just burst into tears and she was like, look, we need [00:26:55] to talk. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, I, I’m really upset. And she was like, [00:27:00] oh my God. And I was like, I’m really upset that I’ve woken up. Like, I was gutted that I’d woken up. [00:27:05] I just wanted to die. I was just like, there’s nothing.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s grief. And I think that grief is a really important [00:27:10] part. Like, I think, I mean, have you ever had any grief in your life? Sure [00:27:15] you have. Yeah. I think that grief is something that we’re, I don’t know, like, I [00:27:20] think grief is something that’s so important, but as some human beings are not great at it. [00:27:25] You know, I’ve seen like like people experience loss and they it’s almost like they just go on this [00:27:30] autopilot. Right. Got to get up and go. Yeah. Especially if they have to take on that role of [00:27:35] like, like you said, the will the the actual like logistics of everything. But [00:27:40] I think that if we don’t allow grief to go through our body, it will catch [00:27:45] up with you at some point. We have got to allow that. Like grief is a healthy emotion. [00:27:50] And I remember once saying to my therapist, I’ve grieved things in a different way. Like, [00:27:55] sure, I’ve not experienced death, you know, touch wood. You know, my grandparents [00:28:00] died, but I think that was there was more acceptance with that. I wasn’t particularly [00:28:05] close to them. Um, it happened when they were pretty old, you know, it seemed like a natural [00:28:10] sort of process of life. But more recently, I had really [00:28:15] discovered what grief meant, losing relationships and [00:28:20] lovers and things like that. And I think that those things also [00:28:25] have an element of grief in it. And I said to my therapist, I was like, I feel like I want [00:28:30] to die. Why do I feel like I want to die? And she goes, that’s grief. Yeah. And then I said, so what [00:28:35] do I do? And she goes, the only way out is through. The only way out is through. [00:28:40] And that stuck by me. So now when I feel like I just want to cry all day because [00:28:45] someone has left my life, and as I said, it almost does [00:28:50] feel like death when someone leaves your life and you never see them again, right? She just said, just go [00:28:55] right through it. Yeah.

Cinta Miller: And it’s so it’s so, so true. At that point, [00:29:00] I put such emphasis. I’d been [00:29:05] in this relationship that had come to an end. I’m not going to go into what the ins and outs of it because he doesn’t [00:29:10] deserve the airtime. But, um, I really felt like I was grieving that relationship, [00:29:15] but I wasn’t I was grieving my mum because actually what I’d done is I’d replaced the safety net with [00:29:20] somebody that just wasn’t reliable. And when that person went, I was then really, really [00:29:25] faced with the grief. Um, and in the end, I [00:29:30] talk about people pleasing. Actually, this is where I think people pleasing did get me through [00:29:35] and did work in my favour, because there was a moment where things were [00:29:40] so bad that my friend’s husband called me and he was like, [00:29:45] look, my friend obviously said to her husband, I’m really worried about her. And he [00:29:50] he called me. He went, look, I’ve called a clinic. I’ve called a clinic, a rehab clinic for you. [00:29:55] You’ve got a really bad day. I think. We think you’ve got really bad depression. I’m going to pay for [00:30:00] you to go. And I was like, really? He was like, yeah, yeah, I’m going to pay for you to go. [00:30:05] He goes, whether it’s a week, four weeks, I’m paying for it. And I remember [00:30:10] thinking, oh my God, it’s so expensive. And I sat there and thought to myself, oh my God, what if I go [00:30:15] and I don’t get better? And then I then I went 80 grand.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I was [00:30:20] like.

Cinta Miller: I can’t have that level of responsibility or burden on my shoulders. I thought the only way through this is [00:30:25] for me to pull my socks up. So I actually opened my laptop and [00:30:30] thought, right, where can I go on my own? Where I’m going to feel safe and where I’m going [00:30:35] to grow? And I basically booked a muay Thai bootcamp [00:30:40] in Thailand and I booked it. I went for a month on my own, and for the first [00:30:45] two weeks it was horrendous. I hated every day of it. I cried every day. I was in bed at like 7:00 every night [00:30:50] crying. And then one day I did this hike. [00:30:55] And this hike was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. It was like uphill incline for four hours and [00:31:00] I was like, yeah, I hike. I’ve done Runyon Canyon in L.A., I’m a I’m a, you know, a seasoned [00:31:05] hiker was I.

Rhona Eskander: Got to this.

Cinta Miller: Hike, was doing it. And then slowly, slowly, I got to the [00:31:10] back. And then I was like miles behind everybody else. And when I got to the top, everyone was [00:31:15] waiting for me and everyone applauded. And I was just like, all I did was just cry. And I sat on these [00:31:20] steps at this huge Buddha and was crying. And I looked up and all I could see was these beautiful [00:31:25] islands with like, fog. And I just got a hit with [00:31:30] like, this is going to sound really corny, but I got hit with this beauty of [00:31:35] the universe, and what it made me feel was extremely lucky for, [00:31:40] oh my God, I’m really lucky to be here. Yeah, I’m lucky that I can afford to be here. I’m [00:31:45] lucky that I can afford to take a month off work. I’m lucky that I’m breathing. I’m lucky that I’ve met these amazing people. [00:31:50] That I’ve waited two hours for me. What have I got? What have I got to be upset about? And why am [00:31:55] I crying over a loser? And actually, what I’m crying about really is my mum. [00:32:00] And that’s when I kind of went back home, met [00:32:05] somebody instantly, who I’m now married to. Better frame of mind. Went [00:32:10] to see my sister who was really sick, built bridges with my sister, and we started to get our family [00:32:15] trajectory back on track. I needed to build myself [00:32:20] back first and become my own safety net. I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, losing both parents [00:32:25] is a funny thing. I mean, I haven’t lost either parent, but.

Rhona Eskander: How [00:32:30] old are they?

Payman Langroudi: 88 and 78. Oh.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:32:35] young. They had you then?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. You’re saying that.

Cinta Miller: Like [00:32:40] he’s 75?

Rhona Eskander: I’m literally. I’m winding him up. I’m winding him.

Payman Langroudi: Up. But no, but several of my that’s [00:32:45] like.

Rhona Eskander: That’s actually my dad’s 80 and my mom’s 70. So that’s still.

Payman Langroudi: Similar. [00:32:50] Um, the I’ve got loads of friends who’ve lost both parents. And [00:32:55] that moment of losing your second parent. I’ve spoken to all of them about it. [00:33:00] And it’s this they they say stuff like, suddenly the ground feels [00:33:05] like it’s shaking.

Rhona Eskander: That’s crazy.

Cinta Miller: It’s exactly how it feels.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and it’s [00:33:10] a funny thing because, you know, but you could be 50 years old and and that could happen to you. [00:33:15] And, you know, your parents, by the time you get to my age, I’m looking after my parents more than they’re [00:33:20] looking after me. But there is there’s something about it that [00:33:25] that shakes you up when you haven’t got anyone to go to.

Cinta Miller: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:33:30] a way.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that. I know this is a bit of a weird question, but do you think no matter what age [00:33:35] you lose your parents, you’re an orphan? Do you know what I mean?

Cinta Miller: I cannot believe you just said that. [00:33:40] Do you know how many times, like in [00:33:45] my family we’ve said we’re orphans? Because we are. We are actually orphans. [00:33:50] And although I kind of think, yeah, we’re orphans, but we’re kind of not because we’ve got [00:33:55] family. I see orphans as something that don’t have anybody. But we’ve lost our parents [00:34:00] for sure. We say that all the time.

Rhona Eskander: But do you think, like, you know, like so pay. God forbid. Obviously, [00:34:05] if you lost your parents soon because, as you said, they kind of lived their [00:34:10] life and their older. Do you think you’d feel like an orphan or not?

Payman Langroudi: To the extent that you know, your [00:34:15] your parents always see you as their little kid? Mhm. You know, do you think.

Rhona Eskander: They still do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah for [00:34:20] sure.

Rhona Eskander: Little pay.

Payman Langroudi: No they really do. They really do. And they give you advice that they used to give you when you’re [00:34:25] like 12. Like be careful on whatever. And to that same extent you always think of them [00:34:30] as your parent, you know like. Yeah. So and there’s also sort of the stories that are [00:34:35] lost and like the reason why I’m trying to spend as much time with my parents as possible is because [00:34:40] I know I will regret it when they’re gone and, and they’re still telling me things I never knew, you [00:34:45] know? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I think the loss of parents is something that, again, is quite stigmatised, [00:34:50] that people don’t really talk about it. The holistic psychologist, she’s my favourite. Nicole Pereira [00:34:55] I don’t know if you follow her, but she’s brilliant. And she says, you know, it’s something that people don’t like to [00:35:00] talk about because it’s almost like they just don’t ever want to have to face it.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t like to talk about death in general. [00:35:05]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, you’re right, you’re probably right. But I think also particularly she talks [00:35:10] about, you know, you look at your parents, you know, if you’ve had the privilege of watching them age and [00:35:15] you suddenly look at them and go, they’re getting old, or you suddenly notice they can’t do stuff for themselves [00:35:20] anymore, she said. That’s quite difficult to come to terms with, and I would say that I have [00:35:25] to totally agree with that. Tell us a little bit if it’s okay and not too heavy about then [00:35:30] the loss of your sister. So you said that happened quite quickly afterwards. Was it linked?

Cinta Miller: So no, [00:35:35] my sister had cancer. My [00:35:40] sister literally just had cancer. She had bowel cancer and it was secondary on her liver [00:35:45] and then took over her whole body. And it was it came around quite quickly. Um, [00:35:50] and she, she literally passed a year, 18 [00:35:55] months later. Wow. So that kind of happened. But that was a really [00:36:00] peculiar situation because my sister, [00:36:05] She was the eldest, I was the youngest. And for a very long time of my life, [00:36:10] a big part of my life as a kid, she wasn’t. We weren’t close. [00:36:15] Then I feel like the age gap closes. When you’re a certain age. You’re [00:36:20] into certain things. You’re discovering things, you know. I then had, like a level of respect for [00:36:25] my sister and really looked up to her. You know, she had, you know, she bought houses and I was [00:36:30] on, you know, on my career path. And she was, like, really proud of me. [00:36:35] And then it kind of split again because of the whole [00:36:40] family politics. Um, and I feel bad for that. But that [00:36:45] was a situation where I really I [00:36:50] feel bad for it. But I did have to take time out for myself to be like, I [00:36:55] have to get myself back on track, because if I don’t, I’m going to maybe [00:37:00] end up going down another way of becoming quite poorly. And [00:37:05] I saw my sister let things affect her unnecessarily. [00:37:10] And I really believe, I don’t know if, you know, there’s going to be medical experts [00:37:15] out there and they’re like, you don’t know about how this works. No, I don’t, but what I can say [00:37:20] is that mentally, things affected my sister unnecessarily, [00:37:25] and she had a choice of whether she let that affect her or not. And she did. And [00:37:30] I think that it definitely contributed to how unwell she was.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, I think [00:37:35] we’ve had this conversation before on this podcast. I think it is impossible to separate [00:37:40] the mind and the body as much as people want to separate it. There are a few psychotherapists, [00:37:45] psychiatrists that recognise that they recognise cancer, autoimmune. [00:37:50] There is an element of like mental health associated to [00:37:55] that and I think it just makes sense. It’s the story. It just it just makes sense. It’s the [00:38:00] stored toxicity, the stored stress. Of course it’s going to affect you. But I think [00:38:05] what’s remarkable about you, you know, is that you have not let that [00:38:10] stored grief, you know, affect who you are and the decisions that you make, which is absolutely [00:38:15] incredible. However, as we know, I think it did quite rightly [00:38:20] also affect your fertility, you know, which we’ve talked about. So I’m [00:38:25] interested to kind of go into that. So tell me, tell us a little bit about your fertility [00:38:30] and what happened.

Cinta Miller: So basically at that time, I think [00:38:35] my adrenal, my adrenal fatigue was at an all [00:38:40] time high. Like I was so burnt out. And [00:38:45] for those of you that know, are kind of like medically about all your mitochondria and where it’s stored. But women store most [00:38:50] of their mitochondria in their ovaries purely because it’s there as a reserve for childbirth. [00:38:55] So that’s why you get so many women that are, you know, athletes that [00:39:00] are long distance runners that are constantly on the go with [00:39:05] a shortage of energy, they lose their periods because [00:39:10] actually the mitochondria that is in their fertility system and menstrual [00:39:15] cycle kind of gets depleted and all of that jazz. So I’m not a medical expert, but I know enough [00:39:20] about it. Um, but at that time I was [00:39:25] so stressed. I was carrying so much grief, emotion, hurt, pain, [00:39:30] responsibility. Every superlative that describes [00:39:35] an emotion I had, I can categorically tell you I had to the point. [00:39:40] I even had therapy with a CBT therapist and she was like trying to give me therapy [00:39:45] and I went to her. Can I just ask you something? Have you lost your mum? And she went, um, no. And I [00:39:50] went, you’re not for me. Yeah. And I just left. Yeah. I was like, you cannot advise somebody [00:39:55] unless you actually physically know, walk the walk. And actually I [00:40:00] know people go, cognitive behavioural therapy is amazing and listen, it has its place. But [00:40:05] when people are grieving, let me tell you. Do you know what they need? They need somebody to put their arm around them and go, [00:40:10] you’re going to be okay. Yeah, you are going to be okay. I’m here for you. [00:40:15] They need love, support, comfort and emotion. They don’t need words. [00:40:20] They don’t need.

Rhona Eskander: Work.

Cinta Miller: Work. They don’t need the not to say [00:40:25] you don’t need therapy, but when somebody is grieving, just put your arms around them [00:40:30] and give them some love. You cannot honestly, you cannot [00:40:35] even begin to know how powerful that is for somebody. So [00:40:40] in that moment, I was like, I need to leave. But as I said, I had.

Payman Langroudi: But then you’re [00:40:45] a hugger.

Cinta Miller: Yeah, I’m a hugger. You are?

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious. Yeah, I’m a hugger. Yeah, [00:40:50] but some people aren’t.

Cinta Miller: Yeah, I think that’s got to do with that.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you need hugs in [00:40:55] that moment. I mean, I hug some people, it’s like hugging a tree. Like you just don’t want to be hugged, [00:41:00] you know? I feel I.

Cinta Miller: Think it’s a very European, Mediterranean [00:41:05] thing.

Rhona Eskander: I think also the thing is, is like hugging has literally been shown to release endorphins, serotonin, happiness. [00:41:10] I think the people that don’t enjoy being hugging or being touched, I think that’s maybe I’m making a massive [00:41:15] generalisation is some kind of like repression inside them?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe.

Rhona Eskander: Or [00:41:20] maybe trauma. Maybe trauma. Like people that also have may have been abused don’t want to be touched necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: Like but [00:41:25] but just some people’s makeup is is that way. And some people.

Rhona Eskander: You know I think you’re oversimplifying [00:41:30] it.

Payman Langroudi: Well maybe but but I remember in Covid, the thing I hated the most was not hugging [00:41:35] people, you know, like when you couldn’t get near people. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was the thing that got to me. I [00:41:40] was almost feeling down about it, you know, like culturally.

Rhona Eskander: Like Chintoo said, like for some cultures, [00:41:45] it’s more acceptable than others.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but my own brother doesn’t hug, you know what I mean? Like, he was brought up in [00:41:50] the same house you.

Rhona Eskander: Do to him.

Payman Langroudi: I think you.

Cinta Miller: Should say that. I actually saw an Instagram [00:41:55] post the other day saying, let’s normalise my friend.

Rhona Eskander: I saw the holistic psychologist. Let’s normalise children [00:42:00] that don’t want to be touched. Or is that the one?

Cinta Miller: Let’s normalise children not having to hug people. [00:42:05]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I saw that. That’s the holistic psychologist. But I follow a lot of her work.

Cinta Miller: And I [00:42:10] was like, what is that about?

Rhona Eskander: No, I think she’s saying that like, you know, that we should listen to children’s [00:42:15] intuition is basically what she’s trying to say. Like, you know, when like people, it’s the same thing that it’s like [00:42:20] pretty girls smile, like, smile for the nice, nice smile for the nice person. So [00:42:25] it’s kind of like, don’t force children because children have pretty good intuition. And if they don’t feel like hugging people, they [00:42:30] shouldn’t be forced into it. That’s kind of like the premise of it. But but I want to continue like [00:42:35] on this.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, sorry for interrupting.

Cinta Miller: So I had long story short, I’m [00:42:40] going to really abbreviate it down. But basically at [00:42:45] that absolute point of having all of these emotions, carrying all of these [00:42:50] emotions, I was at my thinnest as well. I was I looked at a picture the other day and I was like, [00:42:55] God, I look good. I look good. I look really good. I was at my thinnest and [00:43:00] I had my periods had stopped, and I remember going to the doctors and saying, you know, my periods have stopped. And [00:43:05] he basically said, look, you’ve lost a lot of weight very quickly. You’ve got to look at it like a bank account. Imagine you’re going to a cashpoint [00:43:10] and you’re you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Drawing out drawing.

Cinta Miller: Out money, but you’re not putting [00:43:15] anything in. And that bank account is empty, but you’re still you’re still trying to draw out and you’re going into your overdraft. [00:43:20] And I was like, right, okay. And then I put a little bit of weight back on periods [00:43:25] didn’t come back. And then I went back to the doctor again and he said, oh, do you know what? I think you’ve [00:43:30] got polycystic ovaries. Let’s do a test for polycystic ovaries. Did that. And he was like, [00:43:35] you haven’t got polycystic ovaries. I think you’ve got a problem with your thyroid. Did a test for that. And I was [00:43:40] like, can I just get a test for all of them? No, we can’t do that. In the end, I was like, [00:43:45] right. How old were you? I was 32. In the end, I went [00:43:50] to I found a hormone doctor, a fertility doctor, um, gynaecologist [00:43:55] weren’t paid. It was private, paid for him. And [00:44:00] I had a test. I had a group of tests done with him, and his [00:44:05] secretary sent me an email and was like, Mr. Reginald wants to do your test again. [00:44:10] He’d like to do your test again. So I did all my test again. And then he said [00:44:15] to me, he actually called me and he went, have you got a partner? And I said, because [00:44:20] you’ve got a partner, right? And I said, yeah, I’m, you know, I’m in a relationship.

Cinta Miller: And [00:44:25] he said, how serious is your relationship? I said, very serious. I think that’s the person I’m going to marry. And [00:44:30] he went, bring him with you when you come to your appointment. Like this guy, honestly, [00:44:35] I love I love him for doing this. And I went to my appointment and he went, [00:44:40] I wanted to do your results twice because sometimes you could just it’s bad timing. And if I get it twice [00:44:45] and it’s the same results and we’ve got to go with it, he said. But basically you’re, um, it’s [00:44:50] your malaria and cell count. He saw your malaria and cell count as that of [00:44:55] a 60 year old woman. And he said, and your hormone levels are [00:45:00] your. He was like going through all my hormones. And basically he said to me, where you’re at, you would get women [00:45:05] saying they’re in perimenopause or. He goes, you’re not there. You’re out of it. You’re through it. He goes, [00:45:10] you’re you’ve got you’ve got no eggs, you’ve got zero eggs, there’s no follicles. [00:45:15] There’s no there’s none of that. He goes, there’s none. And I went.

Rhona Eskander: So you [00:45:20] were 32 and you basically were diagnosed with menopause at 32. Yeah.

Cinta Miller: And he basically and the first question [00:45:25] I said was because I’m naive, I don’t I know nothing about this. Right. [00:45:30] I went, can I have IVF? And he went, no, [00:45:35] because I don’t know if you know how IVF works. You have to take your eggs. And so no you can’t. I [00:45:40] went, can I have children? And he went and I looked at Liam and [00:45:45] I went, you don’t have to stay with me. It’s the first thing I said to him. I went, you don’t have [00:45:50] to stay with me. And he went. Are you mad?

Payman Langroudi: He’s a people.

Cinta Miller: Pleaser. [00:45:55] He went. He looked at me and he went, are you crazy? He went, just adopt. It’s [00:46:00] okay. And he was crying. He went, well, just adopt. And I was just like, this is my [00:46:05] person. It was. It’s just my person.

Payman Langroudi: Did he want kids more than you?

Cinta Miller: Well, the funny thing was, [00:46:10] when I met Liam, at that point of meeting him, because of all the [00:46:15] shit I’d been through, I basically made this. I’d been watching [00:46:20] this guy. I’d been watching this guy on YouTube called Matthew Hussey. Know how to get the guy? [00:46:25] I love.

Rhona Eskander: Him.

Cinta Miller: And I make.

Rhona Eskander: A good podcast.

Cinta Miller: I was like, I’m going to adopt his [00:46:30] mantras, right? I’m going to be I’m going to get the guy. And [00:46:35] it was like the self-worth, the no games, the no nonsense setting your boundaries. And [00:46:40] when I met Liam, I was like, oh, I’m basically looking for my husband. If you don’t want [00:46:45] to get married, don’t waste my time. I’m also wanting to start a family. If you don’t want kids. Don’t waste my [00:46:50] time. And also, I want to be someone’s number one. I don’t want to be with somebody that’s already [00:46:55] got kids and be secondary to their children. I don’t want to be with somebody [00:47:00] that’s best friends with their ex-partner and secondary to them. I don’t want to be best friends with [00:47:05] somebody that lives with their parents, because you’re secondary to the parents as well. [00:47:10] I want to be somebody’s number one. I’m nobody’s number one. All my friends have kids. Their [00:47:15] kids are their number one. I want to be the first person that somebody saves in a burning fire. I’ve [00:47:20] got so many friends. I’m so loved. But I know that I’m not first in line for a lot of things, [00:47:25] and I need that. And he just went. I feel exactly the same. I’ve [00:47:30] never, ever felt number one to anybody. And I went, well, I went, if you go out with me, you will. And [00:47:35] after that date, I literally said to my friend, I’m going to marry this guy. I knew instantly, I [00:47:40] knew. First date love. That first day I said to my friend, I’m going to marry him. Second date [00:47:45] I said to him, we’re going to get married. Third day I was at a wedding and FaceTimed him and said, [00:47:50] this is a really nice wedding venue. We should get married here. And he was like, yeah, we should. Didn’t even, didn’t [00:47:55] even, you know, push back on it. But five years [00:48:00] later, we did get married. We didn’t rush into it, but part of that journey was me [00:48:05] saying I really wanted a family and he just went, not [00:48:10] a problem. We will adopt.

Rhona Eskander: So I mean, like, this is the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Did you adopt? [00:48:15]

Rhona Eskander: Well, before we go on to that. But I’m sure she’ll she’ll tell you about what’s kind of next. But [00:48:20] this is the thing that I find, like so remarkable about Chinta. Like she lost [00:48:25] her biological father, you know, when she was so young. She lost [00:48:30] her mother when she was only 30 years old. She lost her sister, you know, when [00:48:35] she was 31, 32. And then she gets told that she can’t have children [00:48:40] because she has menopause at 32 years old, yet she’s still [00:48:45] one of the most vibrant, positive, you know, people that has created like an incredible [00:48:50] career for herself. And, you know, I think it’s quite remarkable. You know, this is [00:48:55] not the average life of the kind of person, average person you meet. So I think, no, it’s [00:49:00] true. It’s really, really true. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I worry about the, the kind of the people pleasing [00:49:05] side of that. Do you know what’s funny? Because because like, you know, maybe she’s projecting to you that [00:49:10] perfect happiness. It’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect because.

Payman Langroudi: She’s perfect, but, you know, [00:49:15] happiness, like this thing you’re saying, having gone through all that, she’s this very positive person. Maybe that’s what you’re [00:49:20] seeing, but maybe behind the curtain, you know what I mean? And people.

Rhona Eskander: Pleasers. Right?

Payman Langroudi: People pleasers do that sometimes. [00:49:25] I have to be.

Cinta Miller: Honest, there are times behind closed doors and Liam would [00:49:30] be in agreement. My husband, where I have my lulls and I think everyone has that. You [00:49:35] have to have those lulls to have those highs. I think it’s impossible to be on a constant high. It’s true. [00:49:40] It’s impossible to be on a constant high. I’ve had my lows and like going back to [00:49:45] that. At the same time as my sister passing, my best friend also passed a month [00:49:50] later the same cancer as my sister, so that was hard as well because she was like my [00:49:55] sister, my best friend. You know, your friends are your family. You pick for yourself. But um, when [00:50:00] this particular situation happened of not knowing of [00:50:05] the whole fertility thing and knowing that I couldn’t have children, and I then had [00:50:10] a massive split in friendships, the behaviour [00:50:15] of some of my friends.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Cinta Miller: At that time, and [00:50:20] the justification of other friends trying to justify other friends behaviour [00:50:25] was just like. You fucking what? [00:50:30] Yeah, but I couldn’t believe people’s behaviour.

Rhona Eskander: But I think that’s the thing. Like when you’re at your lowest [00:50:35] and over the last couple of years I’ve had some really awful low points, really shows [00:50:40] you who’s there and who’s not. It’s kind of ugly. It’s is really.

Payman Langroudi: Ugly. There’s another element to it. Yeah. When [00:50:45] you’re when you’re down, no.

Rhona Eskander: One wants to hang around you. No no, no.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re down, you amplify [00:50:50] what’s going on. So a friend who might say something a little bit hurtful because [00:50:55] you’re down, you see that as massively hurtful. And the opposite, the friend who does something a little bit nice, [00:51:00] you think, oh, they’re the most wonderful. It happens. I’ve seen it before, but.

Cinta Miller: I [00:51:05] basically I got told I couldn’t have children.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:51:10] did you feel like.

Rhona Eskander: Like how did you feel?

Cinta Miller: I [00:51:15] felt. Useless, [00:51:20] really? Yeah. I felt like I’ve achieved all of these things. [00:51:25] And then the one thing I really [00:51:30] want, I can’t do. But what [00:51:35] I will say is that very soon. And [00:51:40] there’s always been an element of me that felt this way, but very soon I was like, there is a child [00:51:45] and I still very much believe it. There is a child on this earth that [00:51:50] I’m made for. They’re not made for me. [00:51:55] I’m made for them. They need me.

Payman Langroudi: But not having children at all isn’t an option [00:52:00] to you at all.

Rhona Eskander: So tell Payman about.

Cinta Miller: So basically the next option was because obviously I [00:52:05] can’t have children, but Liam can. So I then felt this. Maybe it’s going back to people pleasing. I [00:52:10] had this overwhelming urge of, you know, Liam’s amazing. He said, we can adopt [00:52:15] and I really do want to adopt. And there is a child out there that I’m made for, but [00:52:20] Liam can have children and he could leave me and he could go and have children with somebody else. So where how [00:52:25] do we find a way of making this work? Um, so I went to [00:52:30] a fertility clinic and spoke about ovum donation. Egg donation, the. [00:52:35] I’ll be honest with you, the the hospital that I went to here was the doctor I spoke to was [00:52:40] appalling, disgusting, rude was like, yeah, it’s going to cost, it’s really expensive and [00:52:45] there’s a three year waiting list and you need to make out, make sure you can afford it. And I was like, all right, I’m [00:52:50] not going to spend my money with you then. Um, and a good friend of mine, my friend [00:52:55] Kirsty, had messaged me and said to me, I don’t know whether you want [00:53:00] to hear this, but there is a fertility clinic in Greece.

Rhona Eskander: This is literally the most [00:53:05] famous clinic. There are so many people that have gone to this.

Cinta Miller: There’s a really there’s a clinic in Greece called New Life. [00:53:10] They are amazing. The woman there that runs it is amazing. She treats [00:53:15] you like family. She is a wonderful human. I know her personally. Do you want [00:53:20] me to introduce you to her? She did. I had a zoom with her and she basically [00:53:25] said, we can get you an egg donor. And what they literally do in Greece, [00:53:30] they have a rule where you don’t meet your egg donor. You never know who it’s come from, [00:53:35] and they never know where their eggs have gone. But they basically take your height, your weight, your hair [00:53:40] colour, your eye colour, your bra size. Not like [00:53:45] matching your bra size, your interests, your hobbies, whether [00:53:50] you’ve got rhythm or not, whether you play an instrument, whether you’re a smoker, whether you’re not a smoker, what TV shows you [00:53:55] like, what humour you have. You’re everything down to like, minuscule, [00:54:00] like you’re really. It’s like a it’s like a 15 page document. And they [00:54:05] do that and you do your blood test. We went to Greece and basically 12 [00:54:10] weeks later I got a call to say we found you the perfect match. She’s 22. [00:54:15] She’s willing to do to donate her eggs to you. Obviously you give a donation. [00:54:20] So we did that. And she produced 17 eggs, 15 [00:54:25] of which were mature. 15 were fertilised with Liam’s [00:54:30] sperm.

Rhona Eskander: Sperm embryos.

Cinta Miller: Then um, and we created and 12 [00:54:35] were perfect. We had have 12 perfect embryos on [00:54:40] ice in Greece for ready for when I want to put [00:54:45] them in. Then I then went through the journey of doing a fertility treatment plan to see if my [00:54:50] body would accept those eggs. So I went on like a series of drugs. It thickens your [00:54:55] uterus to cushion it, so when the eggs go in, it will cushion. And it was basically my way of being [00:55:00] like, okay, there’s somebody else’s eggs, but I can grow this baby. The baby will have my blood group. It would be my [00:55:05] child. Um, it would still be Liam’s. You know, it was a way of us having a family. And it’s [00:55:10] there. There. And it’s. It’s funny.

Rhona Eskander: Did you ever start it then? Did they ever implant an embryo?

Cinta Miller: So we [00:55:15] done all the. We did all the fertility drugs. It works. My body is on that. [00:55:20] It works. I know it will work. And it has a really high success rate. Um, and [00:55:25] funny enough, people say to me, why didn’t you freeze your eggs? I was like, well, I was only 30. Why was I going to freeze my eggs? One [00:55:30] and two people freeze their eggs, but when they defrost, they’re actually a lot of them die. [00:55:35] So this is the safer way round of doing it anyway, even though they’re not my eggs. But as [00:55:40] time has gone on, Liam and I are like, there is still a child [00:55:45] out there that needs us. Liam’s a music producer. I have an amazing career, amazing friends. [00:55:50] There is some child out there that whose life can be changed. [00:55:55]

Rhona Eskander: I think adoption is also something that people don’t do enough, to be honest, and I think particularly [00:56:00] in their own countries. My husband is super pro adoption. Actually. He’s really pro [00:56:05] it. Oh me too. And he’s very like, there’s so many children out there that need [00:56:10] you. And it’s really funny. Like, I think probably because I’m of an age now where I’m really [00:56:15] like thinking about the kind of like having a family thing. I have a friend, um, she’s [00:56:20] a psychotherapist, and she’s never wanted children. Like, since I was 12. [00:56:25] She did not want children. And a lot of people are like, she’ll change her mind. She’ll [00:56:30] change her mind. She’s 38 now. Still hasn’t changed her mind. She’s got two dogs. She’s very happy she found a partner. [00:56:35] Her partner? The partner doesn’t want kids either. And we had this conversation [00:56:40] over dinner, and he. He said people [00:56:45] are obsessed with their own DNA and cheated. He [00:56:50] said that this guy, this guy, her partner, he goes, people are obsessed with their own DNA. Like they have [00:56:55] an obsession with producing children because it’s like their DNA. Like they have this fear of [00:57:00] their DNA.

Rhona Eskander: Like leaving the planet. My husband was really offended by that because [00:57:05] he was like, no, like, there’s so much more joy in, like, having children. It’s like more than that, etc.. [00:57:10] And my friend who’s a psychotherapist, she said, look, at the end of the day, I’m a psychotherapist. [00:57:15] It’s not I don’t want to say it’s easy to have children, but like, people are not reinventing [00:57:20] the wheel by having children. And a lot of people have children and they don’t know how to actually [00:57:25] treat those children. And there’s so much neglect with children and there’s so much abuse and there’s so [00:57:30] much this and that. So people have children really irresponsibly, is what she said, without thinking through [00:57:35] the huge impact. You always say to me, you’re like having kids is like huge, you know? It makes it [00:57:40] changes your entire life. You said that to me several times. And, you know, she [00:57:45] also said, like adoption, you know, there’s so many children that have been left, like, neglected or [00:57:50] as orphans or whatever it is, and they need to be looked after. And they they’re also.

Payman Langroudi: Understand [00:57:55] someone who says, I don’t want to adopt.

Rhona Eskander: Don’t want to adopt. Yeah, I think I do.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:00] know couples where they can’t have kids. And one of them says, I don’t want to at all.

Rhona Eskander: I understand that, I understand [00:58:05] that you do. Yeah, I do. Of course I do. Do you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because it’s [00:58:10] only from the difficulty perspective. Right. I find having kids so hard.

Rhona Eskander: That you think [00:58:15] about if it’s not your.

Payman Langroudi: Own, someone else’s kid. My own kid I find so hard. Yeah, but hold on.

Cinta Miller: Can I pause? [00:58:20] Pause. You there? You’re saying you find your own kids being difficult? [00:58:25] Somebody else’s kid? That wouldn’t be somebody else’s. It’s your child. If you adopt, [00:58:30] that is your child, and that’s where the mindset would have to change.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not your child. It is.

Cinta Miller: Your child. [00:58:35]

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s where men and women differ though, because even so, sorry it [00:58:40] is.

Payman Langroudi: It is your child and that’s the child you’re looking after. But you know, biologically it’s not.

Cinta Miller: Biologically it’s [00:58:45] not your child. But if you choose to adopt, you have to. I think the people choosing.

Rhona Eskander: That child and.

Cinta Miller: Choosing [00:58:50] that child is.

Payman Langroudi: Yours 100% saying, I wouldn’t. I just wouldn’t have any more kids if [00:58:55] I had no kids. Yeah, I certainly prefer somewhere where [00:59:00] I think is, you know, where you get you get gay couples who who [00:59:05] bring a new child in the world. And I think there’s all these children adopt one of them, you [00:59:10] know, and they bring a new child in the world without a mother and.

Rhona Eskander: Because it’s their sperm. But I think [00:59:15] this is what I’m trying to say to you. Like there is the whole, like, DNA argument, right? Like, not from my perspective, [00:59:20] but I think what he was saying is it’s like he’s making a good point, right? Like, why don’t the gay couples adopt? Why are [00:59:25] they obsessed with their own sperm being used? Do you see what I mean? Not obsessed, but like. But what? What is that?

Cinta Miller: Like, maybe [00:59:30] it’s a way of genetically proving that they can still be in a gay relationship and still [00:59:35] have a family, because I think there’s there’s that big misconception or things, [00:59:40] you know, it’s a very dated way of thinking. Back in the day, people thought, off you go, you can’t have a family. [00:59:45] So I think now you can by adopting. But now but now they can. But biologically [00:59:50] I’m speaking because yeah, that’s maybe that’s the way round. But for [00:59:55] me, as I said before, going back to what you were saying about your [01:00:00] friend not wanting children, when I found out I couldn’t have children, my friendship [01:00:05] circle was completely split and I find it weird. I had a friend, well, I [01:00:10] had a friend. I had a friend who really, really, really was adamant she [01:00:15] did not want children. Completely adamant she didn’t want children. When I told her, she was like, oh my God, [01:00:20] there’s me not wanting children and there’s you. And I was like, listen, I don’t I don’t take [01:00:25] offence for you not wanting kids.

Rhona Eskander: Everyone’s Yeah.

Cinta Miller: Yeah. It’s everyone’s journey is their own. And I don’t take [01:00:30] offence. And then she got pregnant and has had a baby and just avoided me like the [01:00:35] plague. And our friendship is dead and gone. Like dead in the water, like she hasn’t. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: She felt awkward around.

Cinta Miller: I don’t know, I had lots of different forms of justification of like, oh, maybe [01:00:45] she felt awkward around you. Maybe this, maybe that. And actually I have another friend [01:00:50] who was who wanted kids, but, you know, who wanted kids and knew what I was going through [01:00:55] and then fell pregnant. And actually I was the first person she told. And I was [01:01:00] so thrilled for her. And I cannot tell you how much joy I have from [01:01:05] my friend’s children, even if I don’t see her very often. Just seeing her kids on, [01:01:10] you know, little Instagram posts and the little videos that she sends me weekly, they bring me [01:01:15] such joy. I literally, I love kids, I find them hilarious. I find them [01:01:20] like, this is what I.

Rhona Eskander: Mean about Shinto. I don’t think this is the people pleasing side because I’m like, you can see she [01:01:25] has no resentment. There’s someone that could have incredible resentment. But that’s why I wanted, [01:01:30] like from the mental health point of view, like, what have you done to become to to put bitterness [01:01:35] and anger like away from like the world, universe, God, like you’re not [01:01:40] angry or bitter or blaming. You’re not. You don’t have that victim mentality because [01:01:45] things have happened.

Cinta Miller: There’s probably Lynn would probably beg to differ. So you probably beg to differ [01:01:50] behind closed doors. There are days where I think to myself, I [01:01:55] think we all choose what we let affect us. And I think there’s other [01:02:00] things that affect me deeper than that. I find inauthenticity [01:02:05] unauthentic people.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s because of the industry you work in, which we’ll come on [01:02:10] to.

Cinta Miller: Authentic people aren’t authentic personas, but. [01:02:15]

Rhona Eskander: That’s because of the industry you work.

Cinta Miller: In that.

Rhona Eskander: Annoys.

Cinta Miller: You, really affects me. If [01:02:20] I see someone in Instagram being a certain way and I know they’re not like that, I’m out. [01:02:25] It pisses me off if I see somebody being successful because of that. It pisses me off. Why? [01:02:30] Because I’m like, you’re. You’re not. You’re not.

Rhona Eskander: A douchebag. I [01:02:35] say this to Payman all the time.

Cinta Miller: Basically, it pisses me off because I think to myself, people are buying into [01:02:40] something. I’ll go.

Rhona Eskander: Into that.

Cinta Miller: People are buying into something that isn’t real.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s [01:02:45] somebody.

Cinta Miller: If they saw that person’s true character, they wouldn’t buy into that person. And [01:02:50] there is a person that does have that true character that deserves.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:02:55] obviously. But when I say why, I don’t mean that. I mean, like, for instance, my business partner, his [01:03:00] bugbear is lying.

Cinta Miller: Oh, my God, I can’t bear it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But like, if [01:03:05] someone lies to him, he’s done. He’s really, really, like, hurt by it. Like [01:03:10] it’s massive. Like, I don’t like being lied to. Yeah, but it doesn’t hit me as hard [01:03:15] as it hits him. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So what hits you hard?

Cinta Miller: Yeah. [01:03:20] What hits you hard?

Rhona Eskander: Someone else using other whitening system. Kids festival. [01:03:25]

Cinta Miller: I’m joking.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t know. But my point, my question, my why question is why [01:03:30] does inauthenticity hit you so hard?

Rhona Eskander: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to the next.

Cinta Miller: Man, I feel like because [01:03:35] I try to always be the truest version of myself. Why? Because I don’t think [01:03:40] there’s any other way to be. Why?

Rhona Eskander: He’s like this, by the way. He tries to trigger [01:03:45] you. Why? No. But why?

Cinta Miller: But why? I’ve. I feel like I’ve been [01:03:50] put on this planet to be the way I am. I’m born the way I am, and it’s. [01:03:55]

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Listen, can I.

Cinta Miller: Just.

Rhona Eskander: Can I interject? So Chinta works [01:04:00] with a huge number of celebrities. She has huge experience working in the industry, [01:04:05] famous people, musicians, etc. so from both our point of view as well. First of all, you know, [01:04:10] to a degree with the sort of people that put ourselves out there, we’ve got a platform. Et cetera. Et cetera. [01:04:15] But I think that that’s really difficult is that when you see why people are worshipped? And I think the [01:04:20] older I’ve got, I recognise that we worship celebrities. You know, I’m saying we as in like collective [01:04:25] as the world Y. Okay. And then you meet some people and you’re like, you’re not who you say you [01:04:30] are. And I think it’s, you know, there’s so many people that look up to you and so many people [01:04:35] that, you know, buy into what you’re saying, but you’re not even who you say you are. You [01:04:40] know, it’s a bit like when people say, don’t meet your heroes, you know, and it’s and that’s it’s a really difficult thing because [01:04:45] if you’re such an honest person and you convey yourself in your truest [01:04:50] form, it’s annoying and it’s upsetting. And also, from a personal point [01:04:55] of view, if you work really hard and you see somebody that is inauthentic [01:05:00] doing better than you, it’s not necessarily jealousy, I would say. But it’s like you do feel a bit hard done [01:05:05] by. It’s frustration because you’re like, I work so hard. That person is so dishonest. But people [01:05:10] buy into them more and it’s frustrating.

Cinta Miller: You know what else happens? An inauthentic person [01:05:15] likes to look at people like ourselves that are true, [01:05:20] Honest. Listen, I’m, I don’t I people think I’m an extra. I can be an extrovert in some [01:05:25] instances. Other instances. I’m a real introvert. I remember going on tour once [01:05:30] and my. He’s actually my business partner now, a guy called Ashton. And but years ago, [01:05:35] Ashton and I were going on this, this big tour with quite a famous music artist. [01:05:40] And that music artist is said to Ashton is coming on tour with us. And he went, oh. [01:05:45] I like her. She’s coming on tour with [01:05:50] us. And she was like, yeah. He was like, oh my God, we’re not going to sleep. We’re not going to sleep. [01:05:55] She’s going to talk non-stop. She’s going to do our fucking heads in. Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know if I can.

Cinta Miller: I [01:06:00] don’t know. Let me just tell you this. And then we got on tour and at [01:06:05] work I’m like that. And then as soon as the day was over, we were on the tour bus. I was like, I’ll just [01:06:10] let you know. I’ve made you a chicken sandwich. I’ve made you this, and I’m just going to go to bed now at night. And Ashton was like, [01:06:15] where are you going to bed? And he was like, on tour. You were like Old Mother Hubbard. He goes without [01:06:20] you on that tour would have been. It would have been so different because you were so amazing. [01:06:25] And I completely fell in love with you on that tour. And from that day, you’re one of my best friends. And now [01:06:30] he’s my business partner. Because actually, I think there’s a means. There’s a time and a place for being [01:06:35] extrovert. Right? But inauthentic people like to look at people like us [01:06:40] and go, yeah, but they’re trying to be. They’re trying to be famous. They’re trying.

Rhona Eskander: To [01:06:45] be like this in the dental industry all the.

Cinta Miller: Time. They’re trying to be famous. They can’t, you know, they just want their name up in lights. They want we [01:06:50] can’t help that. We’re good at something and are successful, and people want to be around us [01:06:55] and we’re magnetic. But the inauthentic people don’t like it. So there must be something wrong [01:07:00] with us because there’s something wrong with them. They know there’s something wrong with them, so they project that onto [01:07:05] us. That’s what pisses me off.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a question. It’s kind of for both of you. [01:07:10] You know, in your job and in your job, right? You’re coming across the [01:07:15] elite to some extent of our society. Yeah. And [01:07:20] and you’re kind of really it’s almost like you you’ve got like this top [01:07:25] table of society and, you know, you can see what’s going on on [01:07:30] that top table, but you’re not on it yourself. Does that frustrate you? Does that what [01:07:35] emotions go through you?

Cinta Miller: I’m going to be really honest. I look at the elite. [01:07:40] Yeah. I’m happy for them. And I’m like, you don’t want it. You stay there. And [01:07:45] it’s not jealousy. It’s not that I don’t want to do it. I’m like, if I happen to get to that point and I’m [01:07:50] there, so be it. And if I’m not, do you know what? I’m going to go home and make myself a [01:07:55] cup of tea and watch Married at First Sight.

Payman Langroudi: Because you do sometimes feel like you’re living [01:08:00] a double life, like, I don’t know.

Cinta Miller: No, not really. And I think that’s part of the reason why I’m successful. Because. [01:08:05] And when I take on youngsters as assistants, [01:08:10] one thing I say to them is like, especially at fashion week, I’m like, there’s loads of fashion week parties. Don’t [01:08:15] be the last person to leave. If you want to go, go and dip your toe in.

Rhona Eskander: When I took her to a fashion party [01:08:20] London Fashion Week, I took her to the most exclusive party. There were all these A-listers like, we’re [01:08:25] here for a good time. Not a long time. Yeah. Don’t be the last one to leave.

Cinta Miller: It’s like. I just feel like [01:08:30] if you want to be part of that world, let me tell you, the A-listers don’t want to be [01:08:35] at a big party for very long. They’re in and out. Yeah, you go and [01:08:40] you set your worth by going. Dipping your toe in and leaving. Because actually, [01:08:45] your worth is your career and your reputation. My [01:08:50] reputation isn’t built on being a party girl, so therefore I’m happy to go. And I always say to my youngsters, [01:08:55] don’t be, um, what’s the word? Gaslit, [01:09:00] blind, whatever, whatever the word is. Don’t get rose tinted glasses by thinking, [01:09:05] oh, I work in fashion now. It’s the Brits. I’m going to the after party and I’m going to go and then go and do loads of drugs [01:09:10] and then wake up the next day, because you’ll just go enjoy it a bit [01:09:15] and I promise you the next day you won’t have FOMO [01:09:20] or you won’t have that beer, fear or whatever. What you’ll be is like, I had such a [01:09:25] short, snappy point of that, like [01:09:30] time at that event that holds such value and you’ll cherish it. [01:09:35] One of my best, one of my best friends was an actress back in the day, and [01:09:40] I used to go to events with her all the time. We used to go in, take the picture, and we were out the back door and within [01:09:45] half an hour at home, face mask on and a cup of tea. Um, and I think [01:09:50] that has been the key to my success. It’s never overstaying my [01:09:55] welcome or being a place where I don’t really need to be.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not only talking about events, though, I’m talking about [01:10:00] just lives.

Cinta Miller: Um, listen, what do.

Rhona Eskander: You mean by lives?

Payman Langroudi: Like, [01:10:05] I don’t know, man. You might. You might go. You might end up at some [01:10:10] on, on some holiday with some people who whose lives are just totally different [01:10:15] to yours because they are these elite types and you feel like you’re [01:10:20] I feel like it’s on the edge of it because I can see what people are doing, but I’m not there. Or maybe I just watched [01:10:25] them eyes wide shut. Maybe that’s why.

Cinta Miller: I think there’s. I also think there’s two different [01:10:30] types of people as well. You know, when you get the elite elite that genuinely do have [01:10:35] like, I’ve got some clients that have got ridiculous amounts of wealth, probably [01:10:40] the same as you, incredibly wealthy, incredibly successful. But they with [01:10:45] that comes with them being incredibly down to earth. Yeah some are. I [01:10:50] find it I don’t find it’s the elite that I like that I feel it’s the people that [01:10:55] are here that think they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got to be the elite.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Listen, you get you get [01:11:00] a lot of that in dentistry. I think there is so, so much ego in dentistry. [01:11:05] And I honestly have never seen as much ego in dentistry as I have in any [01:11:10] other profession. I genuinely mean that. And like, I know people in finance, I know people, but it’s [01:11:15] it’s quite remarkable, like some dentists think. And I know that perhaps the older generation [01:11:20] dentists would say the same about me. Like they genuinely believe that they are like these crazy [01:11:25] celebrities. And, you know, I’m like, back yourself. You know.

Payman Langroudi: You can that is you. That [01:11:30] is you. No, no, no.

Rhona Eskander: Look at him, look at him. Listen, I don’t think so at all. Payman be [01:11:35] fair to me, though. Be fair to me, because you have even said to me that you [01:11:40] get shocked at my the lack of my self-esteem and my self-worth. So how can I back myself [01:11:45] if I don’t even believe that I’m good enough? Like that’s a that’s an oxymoron in itself. [01:11:50] So for me, actually, I’ve spent my whole life feeling like I am not [01:11:55] good enough, feeling that I have not made it. And as I get older, I feel old and irrelevant because [01:12:00] of the narrative that has been created around women and their worth as they get older. So [01:12:05] actually I feel more and more worthless in society I sometimes compare [01:12:10] myself to young girls online that are living these incredible lives on private islands [01:12:15] and private jets. And I’ve got this amazing friend called David, and [01:12:20] I call up David, or I go and see him. He works next to me. That’s the one that we’re doing the block party with. And [01:12:25] he goes, um, I go to look at my life. I’m like, taking the bus. Now I’m living this [01:12:30] ratchet little life and like, look at this girl. And he’s like, he knows the ins and outs of [01:12:35] some of these girls and not as all that it seems. You know, there is there is a dystopian [01:12:40] darkness to all of this. These girls that are on the private jets [01:12:45] that are wearing all the hermés bags that appear to be making lots of money online, [01:12:50] there is a darkness. You know, there’s also this entire world of money where [01:12:55] they’re actually being paid for services. You know, that they don’t talk about. And I [01:13:00] didn’t know about all of this. There is even a website called Seeking Arrangements. [01:13:05] So seeking arrangements, um, is where these beautiful women are [01:13:10] being paired up with men, and there’s different levels. No, I’m not joking.

Cinta Miller: There’s different lots [01:13:15] of clients that have been on seeking arrangements.

Rhona Eskander: There’s lots of levels so you can get paid for your company. You can get paid to [01:13:20] be a party with them. You can get paid for other things. And the tiers go on and the moneys go [01:13:25] on. And the problem is, is that once somebody has had a little taste of that kind of life and you’re [01:13:30] talking about elite life, I’m talking about private jets and private islands, right. The problem is, is that [01:13:35] you get used to that. And then on Instagram you might see like, hey, I’m on a private jet, but then there’s darkness associated that, you [01:13:40] know, how does your soul feel? How does your mind feel? And it’s this whole kind of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Even [01:13:45] the guy who owns the island. Yeah, um, his brother might be suicidal [01:13:50] and a heroin addict, or he might be this down to earth guy, you know what I mean? [01:13:55]

Cinta Miller: But it’s when I look at stuff like that, if I’m honest, I see. I [01:14:00] see that, and I’m just like, the reality is [01:14:05] those kind of situations for those kind of people don’t last forever. They have [01:14:10] to make the best out of a limited time. They’re relying on looks certain [01:14:15] you know, the way their body looks, they’re getting surgery or whatever. And listen, good luck to them if they’re happy. [01:14:20] But I know that doesn’t last forever for me. There maybe would have been a time [01:14:25] years ago when I was like, oh, you know, I want to look better. I want to, you know, I want to, [01:14:30] I want to look, I don’t know, I want to look like a Victoria. I want to look like Kim Kardashian. I don’t know, you [01:14:35] look at girls and, like, they’re really attractive and you want to better yourself. But actually, I [01:14:40] think value and wealth really comes from [01:14:45] an insight. It really is. And it’s such a big inside job. As [01:14:50] I said, I I’ve got friends that are incredibly wealthy and I go to [01:14:55] their houses and they’re, they’ve got these beautiful grounds and whatever. And then and I go there and I think to myself, [01:15:00] my eyes and your eyes are the same. You might own this, but I’m seeing it the same [01:15:05] as you, and I’m benefiting from it. I’m enjoying it. I get the same enjoyment from it. I [01:15:10] get the same enjoyment from I can go to a restaurant and I can get the same enjoyment from [01:15:15] a taste. I can get the same enjoyment from this lovely cup of herbal tea. For me, it’s the enjoyment [01:15:20] that that we have that things that money can’t buy.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:15:25] know the cliche, the best things in life are actually free. Yeah they.

Cinta Miller: Are. And I think.

Rhona Eskander: It’s finding, it’s finding [01:15:30] the extraordinary in the ordinary. Yeah. As cliche as that sounds, you know, because [01:15:35] as you said, even going through that horrific stuff that you went through, being on the top of the mountain, like genuinely, [01:15:40] sometimes when you take a moment when you’re not on your phone and you look up at something like a beautiful autumn [01:15:45] day or you know your surroundings, you can find beauty and gratitude in [01:15:50] the, in the, in the ordinary things. Like there’s some days that even when I come to this podcast and [01:15:55] I’m like, oh, I have like mad love for Payman and like what we do, do you know what I mean? It’s like we’re doing like a normal [01:16:00] thing, if that makes sense. It’s nothing extraordinary, but I think you can find it in those little [01:16:05] things.

Cinta Miller: And you know what’s funny as well? This will probably this will probably really make you laugh. [01:16:10] But you know, like you’re saying, you find beauty [01:16:15] in ordinary things. I think the day that I was in Thailand and I looked up and I was like, oh my God. And I was incredibly [01:16:20] lucky. I think that’s when my outlook really changed on things. And I, I every [01:16:25] day I’m really grateful for a lot of things. I’m like grateful. I’ve woken up, grateful. I’m breathing, grateful. I look, I open my curtains [01:16:30] and there’s trees outside my curtains.

Payman Langroudi: Do you what do you make a practice of being grateful?

Cinta Miller: I don’t [01:16:35] make a practice. I just feel that I do.

Payman Langroudi: Is it part of your morning routine to be grateful?

Rhona Eskander: I’ve [01:16:40] started doing it more and more. Like a few things have happened to me in the last couple of years, [01:16:45] and I’ve had no choice but to force myself into situations of gratitude. [01:16:50] Um, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I was I was going to say sorry.

Cinta Miller: I was going to say something that’s going to make [01:16:55] you laugh. But it’s funny because, as I said, I’ve got friends that live in these incredible [01:17:00] houses and do really well for themselves and yada yada. And I go around there and I’m like, great. And [01:17:05] then, you know, I live in an area that’s really beautiful. I [01:17:10] live in a really beautiful part of the world. I don’t have the biggest home. I have a lovely home. It’s not [01:17:15] the biggest home. And people come to where I live and they’re [01:17:20] like, oh my God, you live inside. Wow, what a beautiful part of the world to live in. It’s like a small, humble home, [01:17:25] but it’s beautiful. And then there are some people [01:17:30] that can go to a mate’s house that have the big house and be like, jealous [01:17:35] or there are. Or you can kind of be like, you could use it to your advantage. I, [01:17:40] I always say to Liam and Liam’s like not having it. I’m like, when [01:17:45] you know, our next thing, what I’d really like to do is [01:17:50] have a by our, like, our forever home and then have like a little pad [01:17:55] in London in a certain area and Liam’s like, yeah, maybe. [01:18:00] And I’m like, well, if it was my choice, I would live in that certain area. Now he’s like, no, you [01:18:05] live in that certain area. You live on the exact road and I’ve dropped you there and I don’t go. Ronan [01:18:10] lives there and I’m not jealous. I’m like, Hallelujah, I’ve [01:18:15] got a mate that lives on that road that I can benefit from. Now I can go down that road. Why do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Some [01:18:20] people are like that and other people.

Cinta Miller: Are jealous? It’s. It comes from a place of lack. It comes from a place [01