Audio

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Ali al-Hassan to the podcast [00:01:00] known as Doctor Ali Smiles. Is that it on socials? [00:01:05] Yeah just doctor Ali yeah doctor it easy.

Ali Al Hassan: Look at socials. You’ve got to keep it easy. Keep it simple.

Payman Langroudi: You are [00:01:10] a master of socials. It’s just it’s nice to have you my buddy. Good to see you. Um Ali’s [00:01:15] a young dentist. She still qualifies young don’t you. Yeah. Young dentist who is, [00:01:20] um, really making wonderful progress from super associate to, uh, [00:01:25] practice owner, um, moving around the country a lot. Um, for [00:01:30] me, maybe the, the world, the world, the world a lot on holidays, you’re [00:01:35] always on holiday.

Ali Al Hassan: Um, that’s, that’s a great thing to talk about. Work life balance. Yeah. That’s a big thing to talk. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: About because, because I was going to say for me, the walking embodiment of work hard, play hard is [00:01:45] this guy. So I want to know how you pull that off as well. So lovely to have you buddy.

Ali Al Hassan: Thank you. [00:01:50] Thank you. Um, you know, I was just saying, you know, we met quite a long time ago, but, um, [00:01:55] when you were, We met a very long time ago, and then it felt like we’d [00:02:00] see each other every few years. And it’s almost like one of those like infinite, you know, like I’m investing [00:02:05] money in stocks. Like now I’m seeing you like every I got out of the Uber and you were there. I [00:02:10] was a little bit creeped out, but no, I’m just kidding. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:15] we met at the BAC, d conference when you were a student.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Fourth year. Yeah. Very long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:02:20] had that with, uh, Simon Child as well, and Richard Field and all these characters. [00:02:25] But, um, you know, you look at [00:02:30] your life from the outside. Yeah, it does look a bit like a lot of fun and everything [00:02:35] good. And you know that. But what are you struggling with?

Ali Al Hassan: Struggling [00:02:40] with? Um, I think spending, there’s a few things actually spending, [00:02:45] spending time with family. Um. Meeting [00:02:50] a lot of people makes it difficult to have meaningful relationships with like [00:02:55] a like, a few people. Oh, yeah. Um, and, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Expand [00:03:00] on that one for me a little bit.

Ali Al Hassan: Because you’ve [00:03:05] got to kind of choose how you spend your time, right? You only get it once. And so in this phase, I’m kind of like travelling [00:03:10] a lot, meeting people, making a lot of new connections inside dentistry, outside of dentistry. [00:03:15] Um, we can talk about this, but I like to travel once a month, so I’ll go somewhere [00:03:20] once a month, every single month, mostly with like a few close friends. But, but [00:03:25] you meet a lot of people and then they all want to do things. And you’ve got to kind of, uh, [00:03:30] start to pick and choose. But then, um, you don’t necessarily have as much time for, [00:03:35] uh, your family or your like OG’s or like your old friends. And then you’re in this [00:03:40] situation where you’re like, how do I delegate my time? What do I actually want to do? And if I [00:03:45] do what I want to do, does that make me a good person or a bad person? Or am I just doing what I want to do? Yeah. Um, [00:03:50] but, uh, I think, uh, there’s [00:03:55] a saying, um, uh, this lady said, uh, Layla Hormozi. Alex Hormozi wife. [00:04:00] Yeah. She said, you can’t have the 50% good without the 50% bad. And that [00:04:05] really resonated with me. I genuinely think like, whatever stage you are in life, whatever, [00:04:10] whatever you’re doing, no matter how successful you are. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:04:15] sacrifice.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. The only way you can have the good is if you have like the, uh, [00:04:20] oftentimes equal amount bad and you’re like, you’re grateful for all the good you have, but you’re also [00:04:25] you, you learn the lessons and you reflect on the bad part. And that’s just part of being a human. And it’s, [00:04:30] and it’s, and you have to accept it. Um, you know, you highs and lows, you know, uh, [00:04:35] peaks and troughs, it kind of all comes together. You just choose where your peaks are and where your troughs are, and then you [00:04:40] kind of live with it.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, like that classic cliche of don’t ponder on either of them [00:04:45] too much. Yeah. You know, because I definitely don’t ponder on the troughs too much. Definitely [00:04:50] not that. Yeah. But also don’t ponder on the peaks too much because they’re all so transient, [00:04:55] you know? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Just just be just be present. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And often, [00:05:00] right at your age, you’re kind of being taught by society who [00:05:05] you are kind of thing. Yeah. And that’s a, that’s a worry because society [00:05:10] teaches in sort of broad strokes without nuance.

Ali Al Hassan: Tries to put you in [00:05:15] a box.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so you end up kind of believing what people say about you. And that can take you [00:05:20] in both directions too far. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: 100%. You know, and dentistry [00:05:25] is very much it’s like a personification of that, right? Especially even people who become dentists, right? [00:05:30] We all kind of envisaged it when we were younger. Yeah. We worried about it, stressed [00:05:35] about it.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about it.

Ali Al Hassan: Did our A-levels. And it’s like everything on your mind. You do the [00:05:40] you do the university, you get the grades and then you’re in dental school and you’re like, it’s going to be easy, but it’s not. And then [00:05:45] dental school is really difficult and everyone has their issues with dental school or whatever, you know. I [00:05:50] had a tutor trying to. I’m sure everyone has this. I feel like everyone has a story like this, but there’s always someone in dental [00:05:55] school who’s trying to make sure you don’t graduate. I feel like I’m sure you had that too. I had that there’s always [00:06:00] someone who’s trying to like gatekeep you and then, um, and then you graduate and you’re like, well, now it’s going to be easy. And [00:06:05] then you’re in the dental world and it’s like, and you follow that path and you’re like, I’m going to be an associate. I’ll start [00:06:10] doing NHS and then I’ll move into private and people will trust me to like pay money to look [00:06:15] after their teeth. And then one day I’ll be a practice owner. And then that’s like the pathway that’s kind of set for you. [00:06:20] Yeah. Um, I’d like to think that I’ve kind of broken out of it [00:06:25] in terms of like, I do a few things outside, but also I really do, um, [00:06:30] I enjoy dentistry, I’m very grateful for it.

Ali Al Hassan: And I’m thankful for my parents for kind of pushing me that way. Um, [00:06:35] I tell people, you know, they’re like, um, why did you choose dentistry? I was like, my dad told [00:06:40] me I could do whatever I want growing up as long as it’s medicine or dentistry. So, um, [00:06:45] So, so so I picked dentistry. Um, [00:06:50] but it is a very, you know, it’s, I as you agree, it’s an amazing career. It gives you a lot [00:06:55] of freedom. You can do so many different things. And, um, you know, in the same token that there [00:07:00] is a pathway, you can obviously branch out and do things at your own pace and kind of do other things. Um, [00:07:05] so, so I’m grateful for that. But you’re totally true general society. They put you in [00:07:10] a box. They want you to be a worker. Um, you know, they don’t want you to be entrepreneurial. They don’t want you to have [00:07:15] your own business. They just want to put you as a cog in the system. Hmrc is taking the tax. [00:07:20] I’m fully on that thing that you need to kind of break out of the get out of the matrix.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:07:25] the same time, the matrix is um, one of the reasons we’re in it is because the matrix [00:07:30] is so clear. Yeah, yeah. You know, the, you know, the whole start your own practice thing. It’s [00:07:35] a brilliant little life, man. It’s a brilliant little life for someone who wants to, you know, [00:07:40] be of service to their community, send their kids to private school, go on a holiday. [00:07:45] You know, it’s a brilliant little life, man. Yeah. Yeah. So the breaking out of that matrix thing that you’re [00:07:50] pointing out. Yeah, yeah. One of the brilliant things about it is that life [00:07:55] can fund you breaking out of the matrix. Exactly. And if you can’t quite break out, you get back to that life, [00:08:00] which is super important. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Or try and juggle the two. Yeah. Be in that weird, like, transient [00:08:05] Schrodinger’s dentistry phase where it’s like, you’re kind of in and you’re kinda out.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up [00:08:10] in Swindon?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, born in east London. Yeah. Um, and moved to Swindon. [00:08:15] Yeah. When I was like five years old. And then. But I’ve been all over. I went to school in Gloucester Grammar [00:08:20] School in Gloucester and then studied in Cardiff, and then between kind of London [00:08:25] and Swindon and now a little bit in the Midlands.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what were your parents moving [00:08:30] around as well?

Ali Al Hassan: No. So I used to get the train every day. Yeah. My parents, my dad was very much like grammar school. [00:08:35] Um he didn’t, he didn’t know that he kind of emigrated to the UK. And someone just mentioned to him that grammar [00:08:40] schools are good schools, and he just got it in his head. There were no grammar schools in Swindon. So um at [00:08:45] that time there were, there were no like bus transfer services. Now there are like it’s become a whole business. [00:08:50] Um, but I used to from 11, he just like dropped me to the train station, I’d get [00:08:55] on the train to Gloucester, get off the train to Gloucester, get on the 94 bus to the school, [00:09:00] and then I’d get home. So my secondary school days, I would get home every day at 6 p.m., [00:09:05] um, every single day. So which was quite long, but, um, but [00:09:10] you know, like the hardships are what make us what makes us stronger ultimately.

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad [00:09:15] do?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, he was in it. Software engineer became a project manager, whatever [00:09:20] that means. That kind of situation. Um, [00:09:25] he never really enjoyed it. Um, my dad came to this country. He, [00:09:30] uh, he didn’t even really speak English too well, and he got [00:09:35] someone else to fill out his uni application and to the point where even picked the course, he was like, [00:09:40] I don’t care. So my uncle just wrote him down for the same thing that he wanted to do, [00:09:45] and that became my dad’s career. So it’s crazy that that’s literally a true story. Wow. [00:09:50] But he never liked it. He was good at it, but he never liked it. He did well, quite well [00:09:55] for himself. And then, um, but he was like to you guys like go into healthcare. Healthcare is good. And [00:10:00] it’s, I think in Asian families, it’s just see, I’m in Iranian families. I’ve got loads [00:10:05] of Iranian friends that medicine, dentistry. It’s just seen as some, uh, it’s put on a pedestal, [00:10:10] right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s put on a pedestal. But, you know, you got to remember, like, we, we ended up a lot of us running [00:10:15] away from home. Yeah. Suddenly, without, without plans, you know, overnight we’re [00:10:20] going. Yeah. And so in that, what you tell your kid when that’s been [00:10:25] the situation is, is safety. You like, you know. Yeah. And, [00:10:30] um, the doctors and dentists who a lot of our friends were qualified [00:10:35] out here. Yeah. They came straight in and became doctors and dentists here, you know. And that little move [00:10:40] was was. But you’re right, you’re right. I got I didn’t get pushed, but I didn’t know what I wanted. So [00:10:45] they just led me along. Yeah. Yeah. My brother though, on the other hand, he, he loved maths. [00:10:50] Okay. And he said, I want to do maths. And he even said, I want to be an actuary and all this. And I said, no, no, no, be a doctor. [00:10:55] Yeah. And he still pissed off about that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they did kind [00:11:00] of force him. Mhm. So Cardiff best [00:11:05] university in the world.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Tell me, tell me like, how did you, like, get on? Which which student [00:11:10] were you? Um.

Ali Al Hassan: I was, um, I [00:11:15] was very conservative in university. I was, yeah, I was football team. I played for [00:11:20] the football team. I played video games in my room, um, watched films with the boys, I soc [00:11:25] Islamic society. Um, and, uh, yeah, I had a great time. Like, [00:11:30] you know, we’d watch movies on Sundays, play, you know, a little bit of Call of Duty, FIFA and, [00:11:35] um, I played a lot of football, so I was playing for like the the local Football League seven [00:11:40] a side. You know, they used to have the seven a sides and all of that. I was playing football like 3 or 4 times a week. Um [00:11:45] didn’t really get involved too much with the social side of university. Um, and [00:11:50] uh, yeah, it was kind of like focussed on, uh, my [00:11:55] studies and work. Cardiff was a nice uni. Great people, great food.

Payman Langroudi: You take to it.

Ali Al Hassan: Well, city [00:12:00] road, um, yeah, I think the first year was kind of hard. Uh, well, like the beginning of the first [00:12:05] year, you’re kind of like moving away. And I make this joke. You’re in a different country, even though it’s like just over the [00:12:10] just over the bridge. Um, they used to have the toll, remember? Yeah, yeah. And then now it’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: Is it. [00:12:15]

Ali Al Hassan: Gone? Yeah. It’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I’ve driven there for years. Like really. I take the train.

Ali Al Hassan: Ah, okay. It’s [00:12:20] it’s, yeah, it’s not been, it’s still kind of surreal, but yeah, it’s not been there for even I’ve not been for a while. [00:12:25] Um, but they eventually I think paid it off and then that’s it. They got rid of it. Great.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:12:30] I love the people in South Wales, man. I really love the people. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Just happy um, [00:12:35] Independent. Hard working. Yeah. Um. Just great. If I had my time in university, I [00:12:40] definitely would have explored and did things more. But I think I was very much in terms of like, at that [00:12:45] point I was in survival mode. I need to get my degree. Um, I need to like [00:12:50] work and have a little bit of enjoyment. But I used to love my video games. I’ve always been a video game advocate. [00:12:55] I play video games now. Yeah, maybe like 2 or 3 times a week, whenever I can, whenever. [00:13:00]

Payman Langroudi: I can find someone to play with, I play. Yeah, I don’t like one play. I like two.

Ali Al Hassan: Yes, I play online, but online, [00:13:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: With.

Ali Al Hassan: The not so it can just be me, but I’m playing with randoms.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite game?

Ali Al Hassan: Um, used [00:13:10] to be kind of the first person shooters like Call of Duty. Um, and then over uni I used to play [00:13:15] Destiny. Um, it was a game by have you remember Halo. Yeah. But by Xbox. [00:13:20] So they made another game called Destiny. I used to, I used to smash that game. [00:13:25] Um, I’ve got a fun. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a first person shooter. So the first year that that [00:13:30] game came out, you can um type in your login on some third party website, and it tells you [00:13:35] how much time you played. Like cumulatively in the first year that game came out. I [00:13:40] played that game for, um, one month in two days. So [00:13:45] in a 12 month, every, every, every 12 hours [00:13:50] of my life in a year, I was on that game for an hour and a little bit. That’s [00:13:55] genuinely they were like neighbours, noise complaints. [00:14:00] There was like, um, it was crazy. Honestly, that was like my, for me that was breaking [00:14:05] out. Like to be able to just play all night when I was, um, when I had like assisting in university, [00:14:10] if I was assisting the next day, you, you do need to be mentally there, but you don’t really need to be mentally [00:14:15] there. Like, you know, you don’t need your faculties to be amazing. I just remember I just, I’d always be, I just pushed the edges so [00:14:20] I would just play all night, go in, function, just sleep in the day, whatever. Play football [00:14:25] later. Assisting day was so unhealthy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: That was me. Like I’ve [00:14:30] always been the person to test my sleep a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. Me too. My game was football, but [00:14:35] not FIFA Pro Evo Pro Evo. If you’re aware with the fake names. Yeah, I was that guy. Yeah. [00:14:40]

Ali Al Hassan: It wasn’t Ronaldo. It was Ronaldo.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:14:45] right.

Ali Al Hassan: Let’s play in the Champions League.

Payman Langroudi: So when [00:14:50] do you remember turning into this sits before me. Um when was [00:14:55] the inflection point? Like were you always always super hard working. I [00:15:00] was always playing hard. I guess play hard to you was computer games back then. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [00:15:05] Um, I think a lot of it was work hard. And then, um, when you start [00:15:10] kind of seeing, um, I think when you, I, [00:15:15] I’m not trying to big myself up, I’m just asking your question, but it’s like when you, um, [00:15:20] start doing cool things for the first time, let’s say, you know, whatever it may be, it kind of [00:15:25] just opens the door and I’m that person where I will not just like, you know, dip my toes [00:15:30] in, I would sort of jump in the ocean of like new experiences. Um, so [00:15:35] I think I was set up very well. Um, I [00:15:40] was, um, I talk about this actually a lot, but the, the sort of the, [00:15:45] the dopamine curve is, um, now it’s kind of a little bit fried, but [00:15:50] I was held down in the dopamine curve in my life very, very well. And I [00:15:55] thank my parents for that. There wasn’t like, uh, you know, I was lucky to be in a generation where we [00:16:00] didn’t have phones or anything like that growing up. So like where you live, you know, you go out and [00:16:05] you just meet people. You’re lucky to not have phones. So you have so at that early stage, [00:16:10] your dopamine compared to people right now was very low. The amount of stimulation you’re getting all the time was very low. [00:16:15] Um, I went to, um, so I had a normal kind of, um, [00:16:20] a secondary school experience university as well.

Ali Al Hassan: I was, I was kind of, I kept [00:16:25] away from a lot of stuff. Um, Um, and, uh, just was kind of [00:16:30] sports movies, video games, and then kind of uni. So like not the craziest university [00:16:35] experience. And then while working, I actually moved back home. Um, initially I was just [00:16:40] in Swindon probably for like the first three, four years and there’s nothing to do in Swindon. So I [00:16:45] was literally just working all my, my creative outlet was just dentistry. It [00:16:50] was like, um, I went through the phases like the rubber dam fam phase [00:16:55] and taking posterior pictures of like rubber dam and getting like rubber dam obsession, [00:17:00] getting latex, you know, fetishes. And then, um, and [00:17:05] to then kind of doing more like anterior dentistry, um, then kind [00:17:10] of starting to like zone my diary, uh, learning the hacks and the tricks, you know, like [00:17:15] learning scripts, scripting, um, learning more about sales, getting interested [00:17:20] in that side. I, I think I really got deep into the associate side of dentistry [00:17:25] and there was kind of a transformation. So I do a I’ve done one talk on this, but [00:17:30] I’ve got it stored on my laptop. But it’s like becoming going from like associate to a super associate. [00:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Um, that’s, that’s a super interesting subject. Yeah. Let’s talk about it in [00:17:40] detail, man, because I know a few super associates here. Yeah. Do you know Matty up in [00:17:45] Liverpool? Yeah, I know a few. I know a few. Yeah. Um and the number [00:17:50] one for for the practice. It’s amazing. Yeah. [00:17:55] Yeah. Number two for the associate. It’s amazing because associate was the best job in the world. [00:18:00] Really? Yeah. As long as you’ve got clinical freedom. Yeah. As soon as you got like, no [00:18:05] one’s telling you what you have to do and to the patient, you can do what you want with the patient. Yeah. And then you [00:18:10] don’t have to worry about any of the running of the place. 9 to 5 good earnings. Yeah. Um [00:18:15] doing.

Ali Al Hassan: And if they’re really good they let you do your own systems. Yeah. I can make my own spreadsheets and [00:18:20] people just go along with them. Um, if.

Payman Langroudi: They.

Ali Al Hassan: Trust you, if the.

Payman Langroudi: Terms because [00:18:25] of it. Yeah. So let’s talk about that. What are the cornerstones? What’s what’s what’s the difference between a associate [00:18:30] and a super associate.

Ali Al Hassan: So if you’re, um, if you’re I mean, if we so [00:18:35] if we just kind of talk through it, if you’re a normal associate, right, you’re, um, you’re think about a lot [00:18:40] of the associates these days, right? When they speak to you, they’re expecting the practice to bring you patients. Um, [00:18:45] there as, as, as a, as a reflection of that, the [00:18:50] practice is going to take bigger percentage. Um, your fees are tied [00:18:55] to the practice. You’re, you’re basically, I think an easy [00:19:00] way now that I’m saying it is like you’re kind of employed. Yeah, you’re in a system, you have to follow that [00:19:05] system. Uh, that’s what you do. Uh, the good news is, is you don’t have to be the [00:19:10] one benefit, which personally, I believe is not a benefit. But some people would say it’s a benefit is you don’t [00:19:15] have to be proactive. You’re just there. You turn up, you do the dentistry, you [00:19:20] get paid, you go home. There’s absolutely nothing else that you need to worry about. Yeah. Um, [00:19:25] so your fees are set by the practice. Your. And from a practice ownership point [00:19:30] of view, that’s you. That’s a good thing to have as well. Like you’d love to have an associate like that. Also [00:19:35] who fits into your brand follows everything to the letter. If you could clone that person, you know, a hundred [00:19:40] times, that’d be great too. Sure. Um, and so at that point, you’re an associate, your earnings [00:19:45] are definitely going to be lower. Um, what [00:19:50] do you think the average associate earns? Let’s talk about money. What do you think the average associate earns in the UK? Because [00:19:55] when you.

Payman Langroudi: Look funny.

Ali Al Hassan: When you look online there’s it’s always like 60 to 80 K. [00:20:00] Do you do you believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Because average is a funny measure. Uh, so [00:20:05] let’s say median.

Ali Al Hassan: Let’s talk about not hospital, not salaried. So we’re talking about, um, [00:20:10] we’re excluding, we’re excluding. Um, let me know if we’re going on a tangent.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I want to go on [00:20:15] tangent.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Okay. Great. So um, if we take take away like, you know, uh, know, salaried [00:20:20] positions, like all the hospital stuff, all of that, you know, DCT, [00:20:25] DFT, all that stuff. And, um, for example, community, let’s just talk about in your, in a [00:20:30] dental practice, like a normal traditional dental practice, you’re working your sole trader, limited company, whatever [00:20:35] you are. What would you say? What do you think? Obviously, you’ve probably got average though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny, [00:20:40] I’d say it’s very low. I’d say it is in the eight area. [00:20:45]

Ali Al Hassan: You think it’s around there. So like if you’re working five days a week, uh, or you’re working [00:20:50] like full time over the month, you’re taking home about six to 7KA month, something [00:20:55] like that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s [00:21:00] higher?

Ali Al Hassan: So. Yeah. I think maybe it’s marginally higher. [00:21:05] I would say, um, because remember the outliers are dragging it up.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:21:10] lots of people earning less than that though. Like true. True. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: But a lot of them are part [00:21:15] time. We’ve got to like pro rata it for like, I think.

Payman Langroudi: No, but this.

Ali Al Hassan: Is another gripe I have. Like, people just don’t want [00:21:20] to work anymore. So it’s like, um, but, but if we, if we stick to this topic [00:21:25] first, the, um, uh, the reason I brought that up was because again, [00:21:30] that’s like where you are. Let’s just say, I don’t think I’m far off that. I think I’m very close to that, maybe [00:21:35] a little bit higher. Um, but that’s kind of what you’re expecting to earn, which is still a great income. [00:21:40] Yeah. Um, very lucky, very fortunate. Um, you know, to be in this country in [00:21:45] general, personally, I think as a whole, but then obviously to be, to be, you know, earning well above average. Um, [00:21:50] that’s the, that’s, that’s kind of the associate bar and that’s, [00:21:55] that’s, uh, what you get. Like I say, the only, the only benefit I think you get is [00:22:00] the fact that you don’t need to be proactive. Personally, though, I think that’s a negative [00:22:05] as a person. I think all people should strive to be more proactive. And I think there’s, um, if [00:22:10] you kind of, uh, just follow all your life, um, you, You. [00:22:15] You’re kind of. There’s a lot of happiness that you’ll never [00:22:20] see. But then at the same time, if you never see it, does it even count? Like I think about that stuff too.

Ali Al Hassan: Um, [00:22:25] you know, so it’s interesting. There’s some people, uh, I’ve got, I’ve got a cousin, he’s [00:22:30] an optometrist and he’s literally just been through the pathway works at Specsavers [00:22:35] next door to where he lived, works a 9 to 5 takes, you know, home, you know, [00:22:40] decent money, a little bit less than what an associate would earn. Goes home every day, never goes on holiday. And he’s the [00:22:45] most, uh, he’s, he’s, he’s just as happy as anyone else. And that’s like what he’s chosen. [00:22:50] So to be honest, I’ve, I think when I say it’s a negative to not have [00:22:55] to be proactive, I think I’m saying that now that I’m thinking about it and reflecting on it, that’s how it would be [00:23:00] for me. But for some people, it’s amazing and like, and that’s just what they want. [00:23:05] But but everyone’s different. Yeah, exactly. So so that’s the associate way. Now moving [00:23:10] on to like being a super associate, it just flips everything. Right? So Your. And [00:23:15] I think the the first thing that has to be said is that you’re bringing in the patients. [00:23:20] The patients are coming to see you. Um, if the patients are coming to see you, uh, [00:23:25] instead of the practice having the agency, you you are bringing in the [00:23:30] patients, you have the agency over those patients.

Ali Al Hassan: So you’re setting your fees [00:23:35] now based on what you think you are worth. Um, you’re, uh, bringing [00:23:40] money into the practice rather than the practice bringing money in. [00:23:45] And you’re kind of servicing that money by the practice, bringing in the patients, you’re bringing them in. So you’re [00:23:50] doing the practice more of a favour in that way in a direct like financial way. Um, [00:23:55] as a result of that, you can negotiate a higher percentage because the [00:24:00] practice has to make a decision versus, you know, do I want 45 or 40% [00:24:05] of this versus 60% of like five times less than this, which obviously, [00:24:10] you know, more money is just more money. Um, if it works, you know, in that case for the brand [00:24:15] and, um, you have, you have much more freedom and, uh, [00:24:20] you’re, you have, you have the agency, you’re being proactive. So you’re doing campaigns yourself, [00:24:25] you’re speaking to patients, you’re out there with social media or your works just amazing. And [00:24:30] you don’t need social media and people are coming in just from referrals. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And all of those [00:24:35] things, right? Yeah. Not one of those, all of those things.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: And so you do, obviously [00:24:40] you do social media. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So for me, the social media thing for me is what kind of took off, [00:24:45] took it off. Yeah. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You do, but do you do paid campaigns as well.

Ali Al Hassan: No, no [00:24:50] no, no, but, um, I, um, so I’m uh, so as if you’re a [00:24:55] super associate or in my case, I’m very lucky. My practice owners have supported me the whole way. [00:25:00] But if I want to do a campaign, the practice just pays for it and does it for me. Yeah. [00:25:05] And it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I keep you on.

Ali Al Hassan: Site and they take no cut. Sorry. They they pay for [00:25:10] the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, pay for the whole thing.

Ali Al Hassan: They pay for the whole thing. So I don’t see any side of that. But I’m like, let’s do an open day here, here. [00:25:15] Um, but there’s a story behind that though. So we, we run an Invisalign, for [00:25:20] example, open day model, uh, in Swindon. Um, and we will get, uh, I did a post [00:25:25] on, um, on that, uh, Dental advertising page, but in three days we’ll [00:25:30] get like 50 patients to come in and like, uh, 8 or 9 out of ten of them will pretty much [00:25:35] go ahead. So we do like a lot of Invisalign cases. Um, and, uh. [00:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: What, what do you say about yourself and that? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So, so, so in that [00:25:45] case, what I’m saying is, um, uh, so I’m working in this practice and I was like, look, we need to start doing [00:25:50] paid ads. Paid ads is like the thing to do at this time. I’m still doing like Udas. [00:25:55] Um, but I’ve just started doing Invisalign and my practice owners were like a bit iffy about it. [00:26:00] This is like right at the start, this is we’re talking like 2018. So yeah, you know, seven, eight years ago. [00:26:05] Um, and to be honest, they made a really fair offer. They were like, look, I was like, it’s going to [00:26:10] pay itself back. All right, Ali, you pay for this one. Just do it. [00:26:15] We’ll we don’t really understand how this works. This ignite growth marketing agency. Shut [00:26:20] up. Derek. Um, we, we, we don’t really understand [00:26:25] this, but but we’re open to it and we want to kind of move into the new age. You do it, [00:26:30] you pay for it. If you make the money back, we’ll reimburse you. So I fronted the money actually, for [00:26:35] the first Invisalign open day, I paid ignite directly myself their fee as an associate, [00:26:40] um, who wasn’t earning a lot. Like I said, I was just doing like 000 days in a bit of private on the side. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, this is kind of how it goes kicking off.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So and this was at that time and I [00:26:50] with so many things, it’s about timing as well. This was kind of right before that big boom 2018, [00:26:55] right before, I think right before Covid. And then there was the whole kind of Covid boom and you rode that wave. [00:27:00] But, um, so not to digress, I paid for the open day, did the open day, we got like [00:27:05] six patients. Um, But that was still seen by me at that time as a wild [00:27:10] success. The things I did then I don’t do. We’ve iterated massively and if I was to look at myself [00:27:15] then I was like, you, you. You didn’t take deposits or like more than half the people didn’t turn [00:27:20] up. You didn’t really know what to say. I’d just done the Invisalign course myself and done like an ortho [00:27:25] course. So I wasn’t super. I didn’t have the hundreds or, uh, cases under my belt [00:27:30] to, to have the experience either. Um, got six patients, I think I’ve [00:27:35] paid out about just under £3,000 for everything. Like the, the [00:27:40] fee, the ads at that time, ads were a lot cheaper. A lot of practices weren’t even [00:27:45] on that marketing trend. And then, um, the practice owners saw that and then they paid me [00:27:50] back in kind of the rest was history. And then we started doing so much Invisalign in the southwest. [00:27:55] Um, we’ve kind of become known there. So in my area, um, if you search for Invisalign, [00:28:00] basically I’ll come up, um, in my, in my local town kind of a surrounding as [00:28:05] top. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you do differently now? So before you were buying some ads. Yeah. [00:28:10] What do you do differently now that so.

Ali Al Hassan: So now the practice just does it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I, they buy ads.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [00:28:15] yeah. They literally so they’ll do, they’ll do the open day model. Um, they’ll do Invisalign open day every quarter. [00:28:20] Yeah. Um, and then there’s, but there’s patients coming in as drips and drabs through social media, whatever. [00:28:25] So, so, so that side happened, um, at the same time, I, I was very lucky when [00:28:30] I got out of university, my trainer made me take photos of everything and I used to hate it. Um, [00:28:35] and he had a clinical camera and this is my vto, my DFT. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you do that?

Ali Al Hassan: Um, in [00:28:40] Cwmbran. Oh really? Yeah. So in East Wales, where did you do yours in Kent. In [00:28:45] Kent. Okay, fine. So I was East Wales. There’s a whole like East Wales family anyway, but um from that [00:28:50] I just met, I was like, okay, I’ll make an Instagram, I’m taking pictures. And um, that kind of hit me. That was [00:28:55] when the Dental Instagram boom kind of happened as well. Yeah. Again, catching it very [00:29:00] early on. And I would post, uh, three times a week for three years. I [00:29:05] didn’t get a single patient. On the fourth year, I remember I got my first patient from Instagram [00:29:10] who wanted to see me just thinking, wow, this patient’s come on social media. [00:29:15] They’ve seen what I do. And this was a very new concept back then for me at least. [00:29:20] And I was like, this person actually just wants to come in and see me. They’ve not walked past the practice or come in like a normal [00:29:25] patient. They’ve not come in through the practice. They just want to see me because they’ve seen my pictures. And [00:29:30] by the fifth year, um, every single patient, 99% [00:29:35] is coming through Instagram DMs. Um, which is also kind of word [00:29:40] of mouth at this point. Now everyone just kind of like if someone recommends me in Swindon, if someone’s [00:29:45] on a night out and they see teeth and they’re like, oh, you should come to Doctor Ali. He does everyone’s teeth in Swindon. They’ll [00:29:50] be like, well, how do I contact him? They’ll give the Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not, let’s get into let’s get into the mindset of [00:29:55] the guy who sees that maybe dentistry on Instagram [00:30:00] might be a thing to do. Yeah. Are you the kind of guy who then delves deep into how [00:30:05] does one succeed on on Instagram? Get yourself educated. Or did you. Or are you [00:30:10] the kind of guy who calls up the person you know, who’s closest to that and get some advice on it? Or [00:30:15] are you the kind of guy who just feels your way around and plays it by ear?

Ali Al Hassan: Because I definitely [00:30:20] felt my way around and played it by ear. But what I would say now is for social media, um, [00:30:25] three things you need to be really good [00:30:30] at what you do. You know, ultimately, if you’re.

Payman Langroudi: You mean the actual thing?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. The actual thing. Yeah. The [00:30:35] actual thing you need to be good at. Because if you’re not, that’s never gonna, it’s never gonna translate. Even [00:30:40] if people come in, they’re not gonna be.

Payman Langroudi: In the wrong place.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Exactly. Right. So, you know, if you have amazing social media and you [00:30:45] do concrete slabs, but they look horrible. Yeah. Um, it’s not going to work. So that’s the number [00:30:50] one foundational thing is actually be really confident, get the hours under your belt. They say what 10,000 [00:30:55] hours and you can be, you know, 90% of people at anything get the 10,000 hours in [00:31:00] and be really confident at what you actually want people to see you for. Um, second thing then is, [00:31:05] um, be, uh, obviously be good at photography, um, and [00:31:10] media. So, so that’s like, for me, it was just using a camera and then slowly over time, it’s like making videos and [00:31:15] stuff like that. Um, you need to have proof. Uh, proof is very, very [00:31:20] important. Social proof, uh, proof as in, um, you know, I’ve [00:31:25] won awards. That’s proof to a patient. Um, I’ve done thousands of smiles. Scroll down. You can [00:31:30] see them. That’s proof. Um, which, which, which I’ve liked I, I like teeth like that. Therefore [00:31:35] I want to see this person. Um, you could be amazing at your job, have just started an account, [00:31:40] not really showing much. Someone thinks your work looks amazing now, [00:31:45] but there’s not proof. There’s not like years and years of posts. You’ve been doing it for a long period of time. Um, [00:31:50] so, so you need to have, uh, the actual proof. And then finally, uh, the frequency, [00:31:55] right? You need to be posting, um, as much as you can. So I [00:32:00] used to post three times a week and I used to think that’s a lot. Right now I’m posting, [00:32:05] uh, on all.

Payman Langroudi: Three times a.

Ali Al Hassan: Day on all. So you say three times a [00:32:10] day, I’m three times I’m doing, um, one short form video every single day on [00:32:15] TikTok, Instagram and YouTube shorts. So that’s three.

Payman Langroudi: The same one, right?

Ali Al Hassan: The [00:32:20] same one, but it’s going to three different channels. Um, I’m then posting my stories, [00:32:25] which is maybe 3 or 4 a day. Um, and then I’ll also be on top of that, doing three actual [00:32:30] posts three times a week. And essentially in a week, I’m probably sending out about [00:32:35] 20 to 30 pieces of content. Um, and that’s again, from like a business [00:32:40] mentor that I looked at online who was, who’s, um, some of these big business, you know, like, yeah, [00:32:45] like, or yeah. And, or like these big advertising agencies, they’re making about two, [00:32:50] 300 pieces of media content every single day. So it really opens your eyes [00:32:55] to kind of to what’s possible. And ultimately.

Payman Langroudi: And now with AI. Yeah, [00:33:00] I mean, you can, you can say, hey, for my business, I think, uh, this, this [00:33:05] girl with blonde hair would be good, but then you can throw out 300 different [00:33:10] avatars and find out which one of those there’s.

Ali Al Hassan: A person for.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone that’s really working, right? [00:33:15]

Ali Al Hassan: Girl or.

Payman Langroudi: Guy? Yeah. Yeah. But it’s what’s interesting to me. Is that okay, you [00:33:20] say all of that, but I would say the main sort of gift [00:33:25] that you might have had that made this successful was tenacity. [00:33:30] Well, one of the main tenacity. Yeah, because there’s loads of people, [00:33:35] loads of people. If they post three times a week for even three [00:33:40] months. Yeah. And they’re not getting engagement. They’re just either out of shame or laziness [00:33:45] or whatever will just give up. But you, you went on for three years. [00:33:50] Yeah. That that tenacity point number one, Um, super important.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Even [00:33:55] then, though, I wouldn’t say tenacity, I think I was, I enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you can only [00:34:00] do it that long for that stretch of time if it’s fun. So I enjoyed taking the pictures. [00:34:05] I enjoyed posting online, seeing other. I was that sad person who I actually really enjoyed [00:34:10] posting. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think over how did you get over the worry that some dentist [00:34:15] is going to judge you?

Ali Al Hassan: I used to get, you know, in the early days I’ve still got. I probably can’t dig them out now [00:34:20] because it’s so late, but I used to get dentists from like UK and overseas messaging me and [00:34:25] um, look, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not. Yeah. Like, like, [00:34:30] no.

Payman Langroudi: You shouldn’t, I don’t even mind that.

Ali Al Hassan: You shouldn’t be posting this. Your cavity design is not correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:35] I don’t even mind that in public.

Ali Al Hassan: That’s that’s not that’s not good to your patient. I’m like [00:34:40] who that’s crazy. Like how like who has who, who knows [00:34:45] people like that. Like, how do people like this actually exist? Like it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. They do exist. And [00:34:50] in dentistry, you can sort of get away with it because it’s kind of I’m doing this for the patients for the [00:34:55] betterment of the world. Um, but I saw one where it was the footballer, you, you [00:35:00] put one thing on. Yeah. And almost the first comment is some guy saying where’s the rubber [00:35:05] dam. Yeah. And um and then I remember that.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:35:10] it was a brilliant post like it was remember this guy?

Ali Al Hassan: And yeah, the goal.

Payman Langroudi: The goal [00:35:15] going.

Ali Al Hassan: Into the Lanzini West Ham. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a brilliant post. It was really well done post. [00:35:20] And the first guy was some guy who said where’s the rubber dam? And I noticed you engaged with [00:35:25] it. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a funny one because number one, it’s a bit rude of him [00:35:30] on a, on a, on a, on a B to C kind of post to kind of do that to you in front [00:35:35] of the world or whatever. But the problem is replying to him is what makes it a thing [00:35:40] because, you know, but, but I understand why you did it because you don’t want to like, say you did something wrong. [00:35:45]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but then initially you’re and you don’t have the confidence [00:35:50] I have now. And remember, proof is outward. It’s great to patients, but proof [00:35:55] is you are as a person, right? As we’ve got older, we’ve done things more. We believe in our proof [00:36:00] ourselves. So. And the more you believe in your own proof on a certain thing, the less other people’s opinions [00:36:05] and words and things matter. But in those early days, you know, when someone who’s much more [00:36:10] senior than me is writing me an essay about cavity prep, I’m thinking, am I in the right profession? Like, [00:36:15] what’s going on? How do I block it out? I’m thinking about that at night. Um, you know, that’s why [00:36:20] I was like, I’m moving to anterior dentistry now. I’m just kidding. But, um, that kind of happened on [00:36:25] its own, but but 100%, you know, you’ve got to be, you’ve got to have a little bit of a thick skin. Um, [00:36:30] but that comes over time.

Payman Langroudi: Look, on our composite course, we ask who’s got a dental account? [00:36:35] Simple. Who’s got a dental account?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Mini smile makeover. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: And they say, um, two thirds of the room don’t have one. Yeah, yeah. Then we say, [00:36:45] okay, why not? Why not? And it comes down to I’m worried about what other dentists will think [00:36:50] about it. I haven’t got time. Yeah, I’ve got time. Or there’s [00:36:55] just like, I just don’t want to be that dentist. Right? But okay, you don’t want to be that dentist.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s [00:37:00] not that dentist. It’s your shop front. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have a physical shop front? Yes. If [00:37:05] you don’t have a digital shop front, you’re missing. Probably. It used to be half the traffic. Now [00:37:10] it’s like most of the traffic. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um so so but on the point of being worried about what [00:37:15] others think about you, you, you had that and you just went through it.

Ali Al Hassan: You, the only [00:37:20] thing that that can, uh, you need to outwork your self doubt.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:37:25]

Ali Al Hassan: If you don’t, once you’ve outworked, you need to work to a point where there is no self doubt anymore, [00:37:30] where you’ve done the thing so many times and you’ve seen it come back and you’ve stayed in [00:37:35] the same place, I’m at the same practice. Uh, most of my clinical [00:37:40] time is at the same practice that I started straight out of the same place. [00:37:45] Not not left. I’ve been there eight years now, still doing three days a week there. Um. [00:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Because you see your own errors as well.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. And that’s the proof. That’s the so you see what works, what doesn’t [00:37:55] work when, when you have that surety kind of yourself, then other people’s opinions [00:38:00] really, really don’t matter. You’re not even worried about them. Now I do posts and I don’t even like [00:38:05] I like to.

Payman Langroudi: Read the comments.

Ali Al Hassan: I reply to them, but just robotically in terms of for engagement. [00:38:10] Yeah, you know, it’s Instagram likes it if you reply to messages and stuff, but ultimately it’s just there to get [00:38:15] patients right. I’m not trying to some people probably post their stuff to like show off to other dentists [00:38:20] as well.

Payman Langroudi: They want to set a course for me.

Ali Al Hassan: I’m very robotic about it. I’m like, I’m getting X [00:38:25] media bits out a day. Um, patient leads are coming through and, and I’m getting it out and [00:38:30] I’m try and systemise it as best I can. Um, but, uh, do the thing. [00:38:35] Don’t worry. And that applies to that’s such a big, um, piece of life advice for [00:38:40] anyone in any situation is so many people are held back by two things. One is [00:38:45] that other people’s opinions. Um, and secondly, limiting beliefs that, [00:38:50] you know, this isn’t possible. Um, you know, uh, that’s, [00:38:55] that’s why these coaches do so well is they, they break through, um, you know, [00:39:00] these, these kind of limiting beliefs. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the work itself, what [00:39:05] do you, what do you do? What don’t you do?

Ali Al Hassan: So 90%, um, [00:39:10] Invisalign and composite, 80% Invisalign composite, a little [00:39:15] bit of porcelain, 70% Invisalign composite 20% like porcelain, indirect. [00:39:20] Um, and then 10%, just all sorts of general. But I don’t do any endo anymore [00:39:25] except for family and friends. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Fillings, [00:39:30] not much.

Ali Al Hassan: If someone needs one, I’ll just do it. Or if it’s a patient I’ve done cosmetic work for [00:39:35] and they need one. I’ll do it and I don’t mind it, I enjoy it, I’m happy to do it. Um, but I’m [00:39:40] a big believer in niching down. It’s quite you know, it’s pretty common knowledge. But [00:39:45] if you want to be amazing at one thing, if you want people to see you for something, you need to be amazing at that [00:39:50] thing. How are you amazing at that thing? You’re sacrificing other things to give yourself more [00:39:55] time to do that thing. So you can build X amount of proof over time. So people are going to see you. [00:40:00] So I’ve done, you know, relative to myself, loads of ortho now, loads [00:40:05] of composite. I can see what works, what doesn’t work, a lot of indirect smile makeovers, that kind of [00:40:10] thing. I can I know how to get a patient who wants a better smile [00:40:15] to get a better smile, leave, and have that for a substantial amount of time where they’re happy, [00:40:20] they’re happy to obviously pay money and their life’s like improved as a result. Uh, [00:40:25] and that just kind of snowballs. Um, and I just, I’m a big believer in just do [00:40:30] the same thing for an inordinate, for an inordinate amount of time with [00:40:35] no, like immediate reward, but then kind of just let it compound compound compound, compound [00:40:40] compound to like you’re just, you know, you’re the person at that thing. Um, or [00:40:45] one or, or 1 or 2 things. If they’re kind of like complimentary whitening goes along with that as well. So, you know, we’re [00:40:50] doing whitening for all of our, um.

Payman Langroudi: Ortho, as Kunal would say, a, b, c [00:40:55] yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, a lot of a, b, c. So I met a funny little sidekick. I met Kunal, one of [00:41:00] my closest friends in dentistry, uh, well, close to my, one of my closest friends, um, [00:41:05] at mini smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

Ali Al Hassan: When I went there. Yeah, I went to mini spa.

Payman Langroudi: He was teaching. [00:41:10]

Ali Al Hassan: So I went to, I had my first full arch, like 8 [00:41:15] or 10 teeth composite case ever shitting bricks. I was like, um, you know, [00:41:20] I’ve done single tooth. I’ve, you know, because you evolve, right? I feel like everyone goes through this phase. You go from like posteriors. [00:41:25] Great. Because it’s that safety. If it looks shit, no one’s going to see it. You don’t need to worry about [00:41:30] it. And then I kind of, I got deep into that whole rubber dam family movement. [00:41:35] Remember that? Where like posterior composites and like the long mirrors and patients like, why [00:41:40] are you like just spending half of my appointment taking pictures and but I really [00:41:45] enjoyed that side. I’ve always enjoyed the media pictures. Then you start doing like a front filling and a patient’s like, well, actually, [00:41:50] you know, that’s amazing. Like, I know this is NHS, but I can’t even tell there’s a filling in that front tooth. [00:41:55] Um, and then you, you might build up like a whole tooth. Um, and then you might do [00:42:00] 2 or 3 teeth. And so this was at that point where I was at my first, like, we’re doing a set of teeth on a young [00:42:05] lady who wants to look better. She’s a good looking girl that’s on you. And I actually had my, the [00:42:10] course was, I believe, on a Saturday and I had the patient in on Monday. [00:42:15] So I was as as they say, as [00:42:20] they say in East London, man’s was prepped. Um, 8 or 10. It was like a.

Payman Langroudi: 8 [00:42:25] to 10 for your first.

Ali Al Hassan: Time. Yeah. I remember her name. Um, she’s, she works in the local estate [00:42:30] agents. I still and I still see her, by the way, every day. But, um, how did it go on my way to lunch? Yeah. [00:42:35] So I went to a mini spa makeover, um, practised on the set of teeth. And [00:42:40] to this day, I still people like if I want to just do a composite course for like smile makeovers. [00:42:45] That was the one that I went on. So I tell a mini spa makeover. Depeche was their amazing teacher. Um, [00:42:50] you were there. Um, did we party? I remember a few. [00:42:55] A few of your lines are coming out. You know, I don’t know if I want to. Um.

Payman Langroudi: We did, we didn’t we.

Ali Al Hassan: No, [00:43:00] no no no, not at that time.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Covid?

Ali Al Hassan: I didn’t even know what a party was [00:43:05] at that time. No I was not that. Yeah. That that’s that’s pre that’s that’s pre Ali [00:43:10] not post Ali.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So because I’m building that proof that you need everything in its [00:43:15] time right. Yeah. So um but you were teaching about Enameloplasty. I remember you were talking about enamel [00:43:20] plasty and how in those days you used to charge like crazy money for like, enamel Plasty remember you were saying. And [00:43:25] then and then I was like, listen, you need to get a scanner. I was the thing, you know, love teeth, dental. [00:43:30] And, um, I was probably gonna watch this. So I’m going to say now this is [00:43:35] this is when um, Canal did his talk, he came outside and then he was just on his laptop working. And [00:43:40] um, I was like, wow, Canal, your talk was so amazing. He was like, yeah, I just do the big cases now. And I was like, [00:43:45] I want to be like that guy, the guy who does the big cases. Yeah. And, um, he, and he convinced [00:43:50] me to get an itero. So that came off that too. And then I saw, I saw the girl. Um, um, [00:43:55] let’s just say Georgia on the Monday and, um, she was super, super happy Everglow [00:44:00] composite. Um, I haven’t used that for years and years. Polished [00:44:05] up really well. She still got it, still going strong. I’ve still got the pictures. And [00:44:10] um, that was the start. That was my first ever full set case, straight off mini smile makeover. [00:44:15] True story.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny because Matty, he tried a composite [00:44:20] bonding on his nurse. Yeah. Messed it up and decided, oh no. And then came on mini smile makeover. [00:44:25] And then he eventually, like, he was booked out, like in the heyday. Yeah. When the [00:44:30] post Covid heyday. Yeah, he was booked out for like seven months.

Ali Al Hassan: Six, seven months.

Payman Langroudi: Composite bonding. [00:44:35] Yeah. Were you as well?

Ali Al Hassan: I was like three, four months. Wow. At the. [00:44:40] Hey. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it’s. That was a crazy time. [00:44:45] Like, now I’m like half a month ahead, but back then, and [00:44:50] it’s probably, that’s probably the least it’s been probably ever since Covid. I feel like [00:44:55] I, I do think there’s been a downtick in patients who want to do cosmetic treatment. [00:45:00] I’m still, I’m, and I think now’s like a pretty difficult time. You’ve got to be [00:45:05] really good at what you do, have a really good brand and to still be able to kind of do it. But, um, yeah, [00:45:10] those times were crazy, honestly. Like, I mean, furlough money was flowing. Everyone [00:45:15] was on Zoom.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t been a dentist during a recession yet, [00:45:20] have you?

Ali Al Hassan: No, except I would kind of say we’re in a mini one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, we’re definitely [00:45:25] kind of a recession. They haven’t called it that. Yeah, but it is a kind of a recession. Yeah, but I remember [00:45:30] very well that 2008. My God, man, 2008 dude. Something [00:45:35] happened on the news, like private dentistry.

Ali Al Hassan: And you’re like, suddenly your diaries are just.

Payman Langroudi: No, like, like, [00:45:40] like a bank went down. Yeah. People just, like, suddenly lost all their jobs.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. The mortgages. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: The phone stopped ringing for two and a half days. The [00:45:50] phone did not ring at enlightened. And back then it was phone, right? Phone for two and a half days. And [00:45:55] we started the company like 7 or 8 years before that. And I’m looking around with my team going, [00:46:00] are the phones right? The phone systems.

Ali Al Hassan: Go back to Cardiff.

Payman Langroudi: Two [00:46:05] and a half days. Dude, the phone didn’t ring. I turn around to my partner and I said, dude, what if [00:46:10] it just never rings? Yeah, but the good thing is, dentistry does do quite well in [00:46:15] a recession quite well compared to everything else.

Ali Al Hassan: People really do prioritise their smile. [00:46:20] Yeah. Or their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, one of the nice things about like there’s, there’s other businesses that do [00:46:25] well in recession, but they tend to be sort of dirty businesses like, you know, insolvency [00:46:30] businesses do very well in recession or whatever. But the great they [00:46:35] don’t those businesses don’t tend to do very well in the up times. But dentistry tends to do [00:46:40] well in both.

Ali Al Hassan: You can feed off the uptake. And there’s always there’s always drips and drabs.

Payman Langroudi: Survive.

Ali Al Hassan: The [00:46:45] times. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, we that’s important man. [00:46:50] That’s important. All right. So we get back to this switch [00:46:55] journey.

Ali Al Hassan: So so you start to do more anterior cases. Yeah. Um, doing [00:47:00] start to do a lot more, uh, combination of the Covid boom, lots of cases to suddenly [00:47:05] do lots of patients with money in their pockets doing lots of anterior dentistry, do the Invisalign [00:47:10] course, start doing these open days at a time where it just.

Payman Langroudi: Started auto training. Did you what have [00:47:15] you done for authors? Is it.

Ali Al Hassan: So I’ve done, I did, I did the I did the Invisalign course. [00:47:20] Um, I did a lot of mentoring with Doctor Afan who’s with Space Dental [00:47:25] now. Um, he did a lot of my, uh, ortho mentoring back then. He’s amazing. Learned so [00:47:30] much from him. Um, a, uh, Tiff Qureshi, uh, a a a [00:47:35] b s yeah, s Academy and the he did that course a line bleach bond [00:47:40] course. Um, and then, uh, yeah, and I did [00:47:45] a PG cert. Oh, this was so long ago, um, with, [00:47:50] uh, Shiraz Khan and that had like, um, a big like ortho component to it. And, [00:47:55] um, but yeah, it was more just kind of getting through the cases. I feel like Invisalign is a great system. Um, [00:48:00] and patients love it. Like if you can do ortho, it just unlocks [00:48:05] so much for you. Um, and it goes with, uh, cosmetic [00:48:10] enhancement.

Payman Langroudi: Say you get yourself in an ortho situation. Who do you call.

Ali Al Hassan: If [00:48:15] I’m in ortho situation? Uh, you.

Payman Langroudi: Got a.

Ali Al Hassan: Friend? I, I use the, I [00:48:20] kind of just use the forums.

Payman Langroudi: Other forums.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah, [00:48:25] I don’t, I don’t think I have a direct like, I know I [00:48:30] know people in ortho, but there’s not I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Or do you ever use one of these treatment [00:48:35] planning services? Have you ever.

Ali Al Hassan: No I’ve never no, I, I do all the stuff. I’ve always been like a [00:48:40] myself kind of person. Like I try and delegate as little as possible, but that’s just me. Um, but they do, [00:48:45] they do kind of have these services. Um, but, uh, I’ve always been, yeah, [00:48:50] I like to kind of do my plans myself according to like how I like to do, um, [00:48:55] how I like to do my iPod. I know you can set all of these things. Um, but I’ve kind [00:49:00] of put in a little system for myself. So I’ve got my spreadsheets for my ortho across the practices [00:49:05] and all the stuff for all the practices, know how my spreadsheet works and a patient starts on the [00:49:10] spreadsheet colour coded, they move through from like lead to there’s [00:49:15] probably, there’s probably software that does this, but I’ve, I’ve just become so comfortable with it. Yeah. Um, [00:49:20] that goes from like start to end to getting the aligners on your teeth to finishing retainers, all of that stuff. Um, [00:49:25] I don’t think ortho.

Payman Langroudi: Is that complicated.

Ali Al Hassan: I don’t want to [00:49:30] piss off the orthodontists.

Payman Langroudi: But just for my.

Ali Al Hassan: I don’t I don’t think it is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but so explain [00:49:35] it to me, dude, because I wouldn’t have the balls to treat lots of people in ortho. I didn’t [00:49:40] do much ortho. Yeah, I did some Invisalign and.

Ali Al Hassan: I was very nervous, like doing my first [00:49:45] composite cases. I was very nervous doing my first ortho cases. But I think when you.

Payman Langroudi: Cornerstones. [00:49:50] Cornerstones. What cornerstones does one need to be to have to be safe with [00:49:55] GDP. Invisalign. Yeah. Number one, got to know when not to treat [00:50:00] the case.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you learn this on all these on the courses. They literally teach you the things [00:50:05] to look out for. Um the things to look for managing expectations, ortho assessment forms, [00:50:10] make sure you’re filling all that stuff out.

Payman Langroudi: But then the next thing along, like if you’re trying to get really [00:50:15] good at it, really slick at it. Yeah. Let’s hear some tips. Like, like how to manage [00:50:20] more volume in ortho. How to sell it. How to manage the patient. [00:50:25] How to like what are your.

Ali Al Hassan: So so so so if you’re so if you’re if you’re in terms of selling it [00:50:30] paid paid advertising bar none is the quickest way to increase like your patient flow. You’ve got [00:50:35] to spend money. But if your ads are good, you’re going to get more money out. You need to have a system to track patients, [00:50:40] whether it’s these like, um, call tracking systems that are coming out now, but you need to make sure that [00:50:45] anyone who’s interested targets you helps to have a good relationship with Invisalign. So you’re coming up on their search. [00:50:50] Um, these are all things.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying in the ad, like, what are you saying about you?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, it’s [00:50:55] just we’re doing an Invisalign open day. There’s X number of discounts. Um, and it’s going to [00:51:00] be with Doctor Ali, but that in my hometown, um, you, [00:51:05] you, you build a name for yourself. Yeah. So. Exactly. Yeah. So there will be someone who sees that he’s like, oh, Doctor [00:51:10] Ali’s doing the offer again. Jump in now kind of for the offer. Yeah. Um, or [00:51:15] like for the social media, but ultimately you want to be get really good at doing [00:51:20] the thing. Show people that you can do the thing and do it so [00:51:25] many times again that the self-doubt part is gone and touch wood. [00:51:30] I that’s kind of where at you’ve just got to do it so many times. I was when I did my first big cosmetic [00:51:35] case or with ortho or everything, everything’s difficult the first time. Everything’s worrisome. The [00:51:40] first time you think everything’s going to go wrong. The first time. When you do something a few hundred times, [00:51:45] it’s kind of you don’t really stress when you start doing things multiple hundreds of times or thousands of times, [00:51:50] it doesn’t really bother you anymore. Ultimately, you’re just trying to like, I look at things very simplistically. [00:51:55] You’re just putting a little bit of force on teeth to move them. You know, there’s lots [00:52:00] of like scientific things going on at the same time. But ultimately, like people used to do it in Egyptian times, [00:52:05] like you just pull teeth a little bit, they’ll move the body adapts to it, and it’s kind of where it needs to be. I’m [00:52:10] very simplistic when I look at these things. Ortho people are gonna hate me. But genuinely, um, [00:52:15] Um, you know, you’re just moving teeth.

Ali Al Hassan: A patient comes in and they want a tooth to be in a [00:52:20] different position to where it is. You want their bite to be in a better position. Obviously from that side as a doctor, so that [00:52:25] maybe you can do other things. Um, and Invisalign is a piece of plastic that’s moving them. It’s applying [00:52:30] the forces don’t use too much force. Uh, plan the case correctly, make space in the right places. But that just [00:52:35] comes with experience, you know, with mentors, like you say, but so much helps available online now. I’ve [00:52:40] learned so much from YouTube. Youtube is probably my biggest mentor in dentistry, like [00:52:45] bar none. So interesting. The amount of things I’ve learned because I grew up on like YouTube [00:52:50] gaming, and whenever I wanted to learn something, it was like, well, how do I pick up this [00:52:55] achievement? Some guy does it on YouTube, shows me how to do it. So I’ve actually learned a lot of [00:53:00] stuff from these American dentists who built all these free YouTube webinars on like [00:53:05] veneer preparations. And so I do a lot of my, um, stuff kind of, uh, [00:53:10] more the Americanised style, but I feel like Americans as well. Then they don’t get [00:53:15] too into the nitty gritty. They’re more like, um, uh, some of them do. But [00:53:20] I think American dentistry in general sees it coming from a more macro perspective and less of a biological [00:53:25] perspective. It’s like we’re getting the patient in. We’re doing this for them. We’re moving [00:53:30] the teeth. Whereas in the UK, there’s so much like regulation and do this and you have [00:53:35] to do the tick boxes and obviously we do them. But I think ultimately, um.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’ve done a lot [00:53:40] of Invisalign cases now. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So that makes you an experienced user. Yeah. What is [00:53:45] an experienced user. Someone who’s made some errors. Um otherwise. Yeah. [00:53:50] If you haven’t made some errors then you’re not very experienced.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to the darker part [00:53:55] of the pod. Okay. Discusses. Yeah. What’s what’s been your biggest difficulty? Like let’s start with [00:54:00] Invisalign. What like, which case comes to mind when you think that went a little [00:54:05] bit wrong? I would have, I would have done things differently.

Ali Al Hassan: Um. I’m [00:54:10] trying [00:54:15] to think. I’ve never had a case where someone’s teeth have just fallen out. Thank God.

Payman Langroudi: Touch wood. Good.

Ali Al Hassan: Trying to think. [00:54:20] Um. I’ve moved, I’ve moved. I’ve got a funny story. I’ve moved [00:54:25] a dead tooth. That should have been. No. So I’ve. I had a patient, an old lady. [00:54:30] She’s got a central incisor. Um, that’s just, uh, [00:54:35] periodontally involved and the tooth just totally dead. And it needs to just be extracted. [00:54:40] And she’s like, I just want to leave it in the gum in that position, but I’ve got like a bit of a gap. Now I [00:54:45] just want to close the gap. That tooth is like, it just needs to be extracted. She’s like, she’s like, no, [00:54:50] I was like, there’s no way we can do anything with this because look, I’ve got money. [00:54:55] What I want you to do is and she, she knows what she wants. And she’s a lovely lady. She’s like, I want you [00:55:00] to move these two teeth and close the gap. That’s what I want. I’ll do it. And you’ve got to ask yourself, look, ethically, [00:55:05] what are you actually trying to do here? The tooth’s already dead. It needs to go. She can do something [00:55:10] else. But I’ve literally moved that tooth. Close the gap. She wears a retainer on it every day.

Ali Al Hassan: Most [00:55:15] of the day she still comes in for her check-ups. And that tooth is. It’s not even attached. [00:55:20] Literally, I think you could flick it and the tooth would come out. I’ve moved it. She wears her retainers [00:55:25] on it, and it’s there. And and, um, again, it goes back to [00:55:30] what are you trying to do? Are you trying to help the patient or you are trying to fit like a cycle? [00:55:35] Because if you look at that purely from a biological perspective, that’s not the correct thing [00:55:40] to do. But if you’re looking at it from, I guess this kind of explains my point. If you’re looking at it [00:55:45] from a human perspective, what are you actually trying to do? In my case, I’m trying to help people [00:55:50] and make a living along the way. And if I’m helping them and doing them no harm, then, [00:55:55] um, that’s absolutely fine. But but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t call that like an [00:56:00] error. I’ve had, I’ve had bad, I’ve had bad. Um, ortho’s probably a bad area [00:56:05] to talk about my worst mistakes because honestly, genuinely touch wood. I’ve been very lucky with.

Payman Langroudi: All you [00:56:10] get. You get what I’m saying? That I wouldn’t call you a very experienced user.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve had I’ve [00:56:15] had a recession that’s got worse, but patients have been fine with it because I’ve had the communication really [00:56:20] good. For me, the horror story of ortho is like, if you move a tooth like out of a [00:56:25] bone or a tooth, that was fine comes out. Um, [00:56:30] okay. I’ve got um, a gentleman, um, eastern [00:56:35] gentleman. He, uh, came in for ortho and [00:56:40] uh, he, his perio was worse than I thought it was. Um, and [00:56:45] we did ortho on his lower teeth and they, and they were nice and straight, but he developed, [00:56:50] he went from like grade one mobility to like grade three mobility [00:56:55] on his lower, like 2 to 2. And, um, and his [00:57:00] perio actually just got worse throughout. He wasn’t really like looking after his teeth. And actually he kind of stopped wearing [00:57:05] his retainers as well. So it’s like he’s paid this money. His teeth were straight. They’ve kind of gone bent [00:57:10] again. And now they’re like wobbling in the wind. And we kind of had to extract them and just make a [00:57:15] bridge. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t part of the plan.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. And I’m thinking, obviously we probably [00:57:20] should have just made that bridge from the get go. And he’s just spent that extra money to get the ortho done. [00:57:25] And he made a comment about that. But that’s probably. But but again, [00:57:30] what.

Payman Langroudi: Can we learn? What can we learn from that one?

Ali Al Hassan: Communication is key. He could have kicked [00:57:35] off and another patient would have kicked off. But I kept him really well informed. [00:57:40] Um, I know him. His family sees me. I always ask him how his family is, how [00:57:45] his daughters. We’re more like we’re we’re we have a we have a very good relationship. Very [00:57:50] honest, open and up front. You know, this isn’t working anymore. You’re not even really wearing [00:57:55] your retainers. We’re just going to have to take these teeth out. I’m sorry. We should have done this beforehand. Um, [00:58:00] the thing and and, um, be better at your I, should [00:58:05] have been better at picking up on that patient and kind [00:58:10] of seeing that ortho was not the best way to go. I’m someone who is willing to test limits, [00:58:15] so I will do I will do ortho on periodontally involved patients if I think [00:58:20] that their oral hygiene is good. And I even say to them, your teeth are going to move quicker, there’s [00:58:25] less bone up. And genuinely, I think I’m helping that. In a lot of cases, [00:58:30] when people are periodontally involved, the occlusion is just too strong for the amount of bone around the teeth, [00:58:35] and their teeth are sort of drifting. So you need to kind of restabilize them in a good position and you’re kind of helping [00:58:40] them out. Um, but I’ve not had any. That’s my worst horror story [00:58:45] and I can’t in ortho.

Payman Langroudi: But no, listen, maybe.

Ali Al Hassan: But maybe I stick to maybe I stick to quite simple. [00:58:50] I do Invisalign go and I’ve always done Invisalign go. Oh really? Yeah. So 5 to 5 [00:58:55] then 6 to 6. There’s not a lot in my again, I don’t want to simplify it, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:59:00] not doing massive movements.

Ali Al Hassan: That can go wrong. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I’m not doing palatal [00:59:05] expanders and screws and any of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: How about how about if I said your [00:59:10] most difficult patient.

Ali Al Hassan: My most difficult patient. [00:59:15] Um. I’m just trying to think right now. [00:59:20] Is there any patient that I’m that I’ve got. I genuinely go to sleep right now. [00:59:25] And there’s honestly patients wise, there’s nothing I’m trying to think in the past.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist [00:59:30] like eight years or something.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been who is your most difficult patient.

Ali Al Hassan: Difficult patient. Um, I’ve [00:59:35] had difficulties with like staff members that we can go into. Yeah, [00:59:40] I could. So my should I tell you my biggest dental issue? Yeah, I can tell you that because I’m happy to go into t but I don’t really [00:59:45] I’ve been so lucky. My biggest superpower is I get on with people. So with patients, [00:59:50] even if something goes wrong, I’ve always had a great relationship with the patient and I’ve never had something touch [00:59:55] wood that I’ve had. I’ve, I’ve had a, a stand off relationship with a patient. No patient [01:00:00] has ever gone to lawyers regarding me. I’ve never had to do any of that stuff. [01:00:05] I’ve refunded people and stuff, but it’s been between us together. I’ve been lucky in that way. Um, [01:00:10] I really pissed off, uh, a practice. Uh, I [01:00:15] need to, I need to not give too much detail here, but, um, let’s say I’ve, I’ve really, [01:00:20] I do my own thing. As you kind of know, sometimes though, if you don’t, if [01:00:25] you’re not good at following instructions, it can piss people off. Um, at a certain point I’ve [01:00:30] had a staff member, um, do a GDC [01:00:35] referral about me to the GDC literally like, um, not [01:00:40] making stuff up, but taking things and then, uh, changing them like five times [01:00:45] worse to make it into something bad. Um, and then sent that to the GDC. [01:00:50] So I got the GDC email through and it was literally like, Ali, you’ve done, you’ve done [01:00:55] this, um, having lunch with patients, talking [01:01:00] about patients, uh, in a, in a, in a joking way, um, saying that, [01:01:05] you know, patients are good looking or not good looking and that you would date them, etc., [01:01:10] whatever. Um, and I can’t even remember what the rest of the stuff was about, but it was like, really, [01:01:15] it was like taking just normal dental practice conversations and just making it [01:01:20] sound, uh, very horrible. Yeah. And, um, it was all hearsay.

Payman Langroudi: Did you piss [01:01:25] someone off?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So I actually didn’t. I’m so oblivious, but I didn’t even know this person, [01:01:30] like really disliked me, but I left a position. And then as soon as [01:01:35] I left the obviously, um, there was, uh, [01:01:40] a situation where I’m not benefiting said place anymore because [01:01:45] I’ve left. Yeah. So on, on that tail end, you can, and I’ve [01:01:50] heard of this happen to a lot of associates where they’ve, uh, sometimes, for example, left the job and [01:01:55] then, well, now, you know, we can, if there’s been if it’s not a clean break or a good break. Yeah. [01:02:00] Um, you can whatever get reported for whatever. Yeah. Now, I was very, I was very [01:02:05] proactive. I literally got the GDC email through saying this is the charge [01:02:10] sheet. We just want to let you know this is what’s been said. We’re just looking into it for now. And we [01:02:15] just need some details from you. Your indemnity. They asked for indemnity. They ask for just make sure [01:02:20] that you you’re covering everything. So I sent that. I was like, by the way, this is all made up. And [01:02:25] I actually went back to this, uh, organisation and um, the, [01:02:30] the other people who I did have a really good relationship with, um, I [01:02:35] was like, would you be willing to, to write a letter to say, none of this is true? It [01:02:40] was totally nonclinical. It was all like hearsay stuff. It was the weirdest things. Like one of the [01:02:45] actual things was having lunch with patients. A lot of my patients, my friends, they come in for [01:02:50] treatment and I’ve been seeing them for like three, four years. And, um, we’ll just get lunch afterwards. [01:02:55] Like guys and girls. Yeah, we go for a Nando’s. That [01:03:00] that was on the thing, having lunch with patients.

Payman Langroudi: So why did you piss [01:03:05] this person off? What was it they. Was it that you were changing job?

Ali Al Hassan: And um, they [01:03:10] were very, they were like, you need to, they’re trying to put me into [01:03:15] the associate box of you have to do this and we want you to come in.

Payman Langroudi: So you left, you got. [01:03:20]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. You want to come in. I kind of dealt with it for a few years. Um, and [01:03:25] we, and we were doing well, but I would just do my own thing. I’d come in when I won, I’d see patients when I won. [01:03:30] And it works really well for me in the other places where I’m just kind of given [01:03:35] the freedom, that’s what I need to work. I’ve learned that about myself, and this was a place that didn’t really [01:03:40] want that or like that. And, um, someone in management, um, [01:03:45] was, uh, really, really didn’t like that. And kind of looking [01:03:50] at it back there, probably get the feeling that this person doesn’t give a shit about me. They’re doing their own thing. [01:03:55] Um, they’re really happy. They’re going shopping and [01:04:00] they’re like, kind of working, coming and going. And, um, personally, [01:04:05] I think there’s a bit of jealousy there. Um, I could be wrong, but then, but [01:04:10] then you get a GDC charge sheet with all this, like made up.

Payman Langroudi: I really want to caution you against the jealousy, uh, [01:04:15] explanation for I.

Ali Al Hassan: Don’t think it’s an.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. No, but I [01:04:20] want to caution you on it. Yeah. Insomuch as there may be jealousy, there may be jealousy, [01:04:25] but it’s a very easy way of not confronting what the actual situation [01:04:30] was.

Ali Al Hassan: The actual situation was I just do what I want to do, and this person doesn’t like that. [01:04:35] They’re very, uh, managerial. You have to come in at this time. You have to if, for [01:04:40] example, like if I, um, let me, let me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so you, you, you know, her [01:04:45] authority was being, uh, is it it didn’t exist.

Ali Al Hassan: I just acted like it didn’t exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [01:04:50] yeah. And, um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You disrespectful.

Ali Al Hassan: Owners didn’t care.

Payman Langroudi: Her authority.

Ali Al Hassan: No, but yeah, but never like, not [01:04:55] even a bad word said.

Payman Langroudi: No, but to her.

Ali Al Hassan: Authority, I just ignore. Yeah, I just ignore like I will just do what [01:05:00] I want to do and I will not, I won’t even engage. I won’t even try and convince someone if I want to do something [01:05:05] and they want to do something else and I won’t even have the chat, I’ll just do because [01:05:10] I know like I’m good and I’m comfortable in myself. Um, anyway, so, so this comes through. [01:05:15] I get this letter written by all the other, but I’m, I’m shitting bricks. I’m like, this is crazy. [01:05:20] Tell a few close friends and then, um, and then you hear about these things sometimes go on for years and [01:05:25] years and years and years and years. And I’m like, I’m just going to have this like hanging over my head. And I was like, you [01:05:30] know, like whatever. And I start thinking, I start mentally training myself like, this is going to be there for years [01:05:35] now. You’re just going to be there. It’s just another thing that’s there. Ignore it. Don’t worry, it’s fine. You’ll get [01:05:40] over it. But do everything you can. Be proactive. Um, I get a letter written by [01:05:45] four people totally to counteract, um, signed [01:05:50] and everything. And before the GDC even asked for it, when they asked for my initial details, I sent [01:05:55] that letter in. They come back to me. So it’s been like a week. They come back [01:06:00] to me and they say, um, Ali, uh, thank you actually for your [01:06:05] details and thank you for this letter as well. Um, can you confirm the contact [01:06:10] details of these people? These people were actually very scared to put their [01:06:15] names to this because, um, they didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Want to get fired. They were.

Ali Al Hassan: Fearful. Exactly. [01:06:20] And, um, that was, we had that relationship and I, and I was like, look, it’s confidential on [01:06:25] their side. I confirmed from the GDC, it’s confidential on both sides. And, um, it, [01:06:30] uh, and, uh, so, so they were able to directly the GDC. Then [01:06:35] I gave the email addresses, the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymously.

Ali Al Hassan: The GDC emailed said people. [01:06:40] Yeah. Um, the Ali’s given this letter to say that, you know, this is all.

Payman Langroudi: Made [01:06:45] up or whatever was real.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. And then they all emailed back, you know, thanks to them. Love those [01:06:50] people. They know who they are. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And they dropped the case, right.

Ali Al Hassan: And they [01:06:55] dropped the case in three weeks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, that’s like that. They call that blue on blue, [01:07:00] you know, like dentist on dentist violence. Yeah. Yeah. At the GDC.

Ali Al Hassan: I think that’s what most of it [01:07:05] is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a massive component of it. I mean, this probably wasn’t a dentist, but but still. Yeah. Same [01:07:10] story. Do you reckon you learned something by it? Like, you know, I’m interested [01:07:15] in the would you do things differently?

Ali Al Hassan: Why learn was put yourself in the. It wasn’t. I would [01:07:20] act differently. It was. Put yourself in an environment which you know, [01:07:25] you can thrive in. Um, I put myself and I’m a I’m a big believer [01:07:30] in, um, nothing I don’t, I don’t blame other people or anything else. I’m, [01:07:35] I’m a self. It falls to you. The only thing you can control is you. The only thing that [01:07:40] you can change is your decisions. Anything you can’t control. Don’t worry about what could you have done differently? [01:07:45] What I could have done differently. There is just, um, uh, not been [01:07:50] in that position where it didn’t work. Like money was good and everything, but, [01:07:55] um, how the system wanted to work versus how I wanted to work were at odds. And, [01:08:00] um, there was a big clash with like management and like other and some [01:08:05] other members of staff, um, not in like a verbal way or a physical way, but just in terms of [01:08:10] like, I would just disengage and do my thing. And that can really annoy some people if, [01:08:15] if, if they’re, if they’re seen in that way. So don’t put yourself in that environment. Um, [01:08:20] but I’ve been quite lucky in that I’ve, I’ve settled in good environments, mostly 80% on [01:08:25] the whole, and I’m still in all of those places. And now I’m kind of, I don’t really think I’ll ever, I don’t [01:08:30] see myself changing jobs in like a, in. I’ve changed jobs once. [01:08:35] And that was the only time, you know, otherwise I’ve just started. But you hear about other [01:08:40] people who are like, they work in one place for a year and then they jump to another and they jump, jumped. And then they wonder why they’re not getting [01:08:45] like loads of cases ceptance or doing loads of amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Word of mouth. Word of mouth is on a real like exponential [01:08:50] curve. It is. So it is like, you know, a small difference at the beginning makes a big difference.

Ali Al Hassan: And [01:08:55] all of these things compound doing the same thing for a very long amount of time. That’s compounding. [01:09:00] You’re in the same area. So people are talking about you and that word of mouth is spreading. That [01:09:05] compounds. You’re getting better and better at media. You start by taking pictures, then you get more confident [01:09:10] in doing videos. You’re getting more confident speaking on camera. Now you’re seeing more things on social media, [01:09:15] so you’re getting more ideas of what you want to do on social media. That’s compounding your confidence [01:09:20] in.

Payman Langroudi: Your critical mass, isn’t it? Like I remember with every new product we do same story, mini [01:09:25] smile makeover. We’re like, yeah, loads of people were really happy. Yeah, but we weren’t getting many word of mouth. Yeah. [01:09:30] I mean, what’s going on? What’s going on? And what it was was it wasn’t loads of people. It was actually a tiny number [01:09:35] of people because it was early.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: As the years go on, the number of humans increases. [01:09:40] You know, like it’s a it’s an important thing to bear in mind. Yeah. Tell me about [01:09:45] Dental opulence.

Ali Al Hassan: So do. My best friend in the Midlands [01:09:50] was like, Ali, I see you doing lots of this amazing dentistry. I’ve got a unit free. Let’s just [01:09:55] open a clinic. And, um, I was kind of a little bit against it. I was very free in what [01:10:00] I wanted to do. He was like, Ali, I will handle all of the logistical stuff. So all [01:10:05] the hands on stuff, the paperwork stuff, the, the all I want you to basically put [01:10:10] your name on it, put the, your portion of the money towards it, obviously, and um, [01:10:15] if you want to work there, you can work there. If not, we’ll do it together. But just do be that clinical person because he’s not a [01:10:20] dentist. Yeah. Um, and um, I was like, okay, let’s do it. So we kind of, and [01:10:25] it’s for me, it was like more of a life experience. You know, I want to know how opening a practice is. So, you [01:10:30] know, you learn about building, you learn about putting a surgery together. You learn about CQC, you [01:10:35] learn more of the kind of background, like marketing side and everything from a practice [01:10:40] point of view. You’re trying to get other dentists busy now, not just yourself. Um, in a city where I’m [01:10:45] not really known. So, um, this was our thing was like, if we can make that work, [01:10:50] we can make anything work. Um, and then we were like, we’re going to expand [01:10:55] from there, but we’ve kind of just been having too much fun the last two years to be doing that. But again, [01:11:00] it’s that balance, right? It’s like, when do you choose to jump out of the rat race and start enjoying some [01:11:05] of your time versus we keep working, expanding, working, expanding, working with you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not an either or though, [01:11:10] is it? You’re doing both at the same time.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. But I would say I can, I, I’m more [01:11:15] than happy to confirm and say for the last two years, I would say I’ve been on the [01:11:20] work side. I’ve been stagnant but stagnant at a level that I’m happy. [01:11:25] I’m happy in terms of like what I’m earning. Like I haven’t really, I’m not doing [01:11:30] more than what I was doing, uh, for the last sort of year and a half or so. But then, but the [01:11:35] extra effort for me has been like travelling the world, seeing things that I never thought [01:11:40] I would see. Just going to these experiences and just kind of probably living [01:11:45] life to a level that I didn’t really live it. Um, probably from my early days. [01:11:50] Yeah. Um, you know, catching up on that dopamine, as they say. Yeah, yeah. And, um, but, [01:11:55] but that’s you got to get the most out of life, right? You know, you get one shot and works amazing [01:12:00] and helping people and that and that sense of duty. At some point we’re gonna, we’re gonna, [01:12:05] you know, there’s definitely more practices on the way. Um, and there’s even like plans in [01:12:10] the works for that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me some of the highlights of Dental opulence. Like how, how long [01:12:15] was it a complete squat?

Ali Al Hassan: We, yeah, we just put a little bit of money in every single month. He’d [01:12:20] put a bit of money in. I’d put the money in. We’re like, what can we pay for? It took us like, because, you know, you can fit out these surgeries [01:12:25] really quick. Now we just did it the old school way. We didn’t take any loans. Um, it cost [01:12:30] it’s, it’s like a one surgery boutique practice cost about, I would say all [01:12:35] in all about. I think I might get the number to. I can’t remember [01:12:40] if it’s. I might have to, um, just [01:12:45] trying to think how much was it? I think it was like one 180 [01:12:50] zero zero £0 around there. All in all done. We should have made it a two surgery, [01:12:55] but we’ve learned that for the next one when we get around to it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And then a different [01:13:00] associates work there or one associate.

Ali Al Hassan: Three associates, um one three days a week, one [01:13:05] two days a week, one like one day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Um, or any of them super associates.

Ali Al Hassan: No, [01:13:10] but one guy’s getting really, really good. Um, we took him from just purely NHS to [01:13:15] referral from word of mouth that he’s a good dentist in the local area, train him up to do composite and loads [01:13:20] of ortho, which he’s doing now. Um, but they’ve not really hit, they’re not good on this. They don’t do their [01:13:25] socials, they don’t like you, you with socials, you have to enjoy it to do it, or [01:13:30] you have to just pay someone to do it for you. And the people who don’t enjoy it. Unfortunately [01:13:35] for them, also don’t want to pay someone to do it for them. And, um, I think [01:13:40] that if you look at all the super associates, they’re big on socials. I don’t, I think it’s hard to, [01:13:45] you know, and I don’t even think I’m that big of a super associate, whatever. [01:13:50] Um, but these super associates are.

Payman Langroudi: Linked to social.

Ali Al Hassan: Are doing well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:13:55] no doubt about it. Yeah. There would be no super associates without super social. Yeah. Well, really [01:14:00] so but what did you learn? Was it easier or harder than you thought? [01:14:05]

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, it was more. It’s just taking the steps. I wouldn’t even [01:14:10] call it easy. You know, you’ve you have.

Payman Langroudi: Well, how well did it do? I mean, you you.

Ali Al Hassan: So we we.

Payman Langroudi: One [01:14:15] room.

Ali Al Hassan: We made we made our money back. Yeah. Both of us. So we put in what, um, [01:14:20] like about 90 grand each. Yeah. We made our money back in um 7 [01:14:25] or 8 months.

Payman Langroudi: Oh nice.

Ali Al Hassan: In a one surgery. So we, we got [01:14:30] that money back. Um, yeah, it was, it was really good. [01:14:35] Um, we did, we did it. He, he’s got a big accounting business, uh, [01:14:40] up there, so they know loads of small to medium sized business owners, thousands of them on their books [01:14:45] so that they’ve all got money in their pocket. They’re coming in to get their teeth done. He knows a lot of the local celebrities, [01:14:50] so we did a lot of the local celebrities. We did some rappers, we’ve done some Aston Villa footballers. Um, [01:14:55] and um, when I kind of made my money back, that’s when I was actually doing [01:15:00] um, what I was doing. I was doing two days a week in the beginning [01:15:05] over there. And then I stepped back and I was like, right, I’m just going to do associate lead now. I’m going to [01:15:10] come just for two days a month. Um, and now I’m, you know, it’s a new challenge. [01:15:15] Like, you know, trying to get other dentists busy, uh, trying to be a good mentor when I’m [01:15:20] like, not on holiday or not working or not doing my own thing. And, um, you know, kind of just letting, [01:15:25] letting it sort of take its course, but a squat if done well, some people like, you know, when you see those, [01:15:30] um, you see those posts online and it’s like, don’t expect to earn any [01:15:35] money for three years. And um, yeah, make sure you’ve saved up for it’s [01:15:40] very like, can be very doom or gloom when people are like giving that sort of advice in. We, [01:15:45] we, we, we, we had good foundations in terms of like my socials already and the work [01:15:50] that I know about and the systems that I knew and his local, uh, connections [01:15:55] in the area. But, but if you want to find a winning formula to begin with, find [01:16:00] your advantage and then push it. Yeah. But you can, you can do very well. And there’s people who’ve done much [01:16:05] better than, than we have honestly. Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so, but [01:16:10] the plan is to grow dio um, it’s a good little brand we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: I love the [01:16:15] brand.

Ali Al Hassan: Dio.co.uk.

Payman Langroudi: Have.

Ali Al Hassan: You don’t do.co.uk.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you know, when, [01:16:20] when you see a logo. I don’t know about you man. Every time I see a logo I always want to critique it, make it better. Yeah, I [01:16:25] can’t.

Ali Al Hassan: You know, Shaz from Digimarc says their brand. No, [01:16:30] but he’s like, you’re. That’s the best thing. So we were just sitting there and we were like, and we just [01:16:35] we saw the Adobe logo, the Adobe with the two D’s. And we were like, let’s just [01:16:40] do that, but do like a D like as a half circle and then an O, and then there’s so much [01:16:45] like you can turn it on the side and it’s a man, it’s a person or it’s like a smile the other way around. [01:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s cool.

Ali Al Hassan: Man. And um, yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: You should do more of those eventually.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [01:16:55] So we and on the, on the Deo social page we built, we just follow, we don’t follow [01:17:00] because some this is some people build Instagram by following loads of people. This is like a strategy [01:17:05] on Instagram where you can, um, some people to grow their Instagram will follow thousands of people and X [01:17:10] percentage will follow you back. And it’s a way of like growing. We don’t follow anyone, but we’ve grown the [01:17:15] page in two years to like 6000 followers. Um, to [01:17:20] put that in perspective, I’m on my Insta, it’s like 18,000, but that’s [01:17:25] nine years, which is a business. So it’s almost harder [01:17:30] because it’s not a person.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a.

Ali Al Hassan: Person. So it’s grown to five and a bit in [01:17:35] two years. Yeah. So, um, just why [01:17:40] is that posting regularly all the time. Having a nice brand [01:17:45] and be good and confident at what you do and people will, people will kind of find [01:17:50] you.

Payman Langroudi: I think for, for social consistency really is a really important point. Absolutely. [01:17:55] Yeah. Not only because the algorithms love, love it. Yeah. But [01:18:00] I don’t think the algorithms love it as much as they used to.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. But having your shop front. [01:18:05] Yeah. It’s your shops either closed or open. And so you need to 24 hour running story. If [01:18:10] you’re if you’re posting once a week, just think of time. If you’re posting once a week, [01:18:15] when someone sees your story cumulatively in that week, it’s like a snapshot of time. If [01:18:20] it’s a post your digital shop is open to ex [01:18:25] outside, a person who sees it, which most people don’t even see it, but someone who sees it. Just think about. Think [01:18:30] about all the minutes that you have in a week. Your digital shopfront is open for like three [01:18:35] seconds. Yeah, out of those millions of minutes or how many minutes there are in [01:18:40] a week, you need to have a rolling story. You need to always be there. And because no one else is doing it [01:18:45] and you’re doing it, you’re obviously cleaning up. You know, you want to be that person [01:18:50] who, if people hate doing the thing, you be the person who’s getting in the weeds and doing it and [01:18:55] you’ll see the benefit from it.

Payman Langroudi: What do you say to people? And there’s lots. Yeah. In my generation, [01:19:00] say the amount of time you’re spending on social, you should be dedicating [01:19:05] to clinical learning more than you already know.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:19:10] uh, you know, things like, you know, you know, my generation hates awards. [01:19:15] Yeah, yeah. Do you understand? Do you understand the concern?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, it’s it’s. [01:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s tell me the concern. Like what the.

Ali Al Hassan: Concern about awards is. It’s your you’re [01:19:25] pushing to patients that you’re like a BAFTA [01:19:30] winner of Oscars, for example, and there’s been like a whole judging panel or whatever. And [01:19:35] you’re saying now I’m an award winner. And it’s kind of the the thing is, you’re misleading patients [01:19:40] to come to you. And then people who don’t engage in it hate it even more because other people are using [01:19:45] it and they’re not using it. And then they might see said people, you know, advertising it, [01:19:50] putting it on their websites and whatever. And they’re like, this is, um, this can be seen as whatever, like misleading. [01:19:55] It depends on what your mentality is. My mentality is, is, look, if [01:20:00] it’s the rules of the game, if it’s acceptable and allowed, you know, I’m [01:20:05] going to use it. If I’m, if I, if, if I’m running at you and you’re the goalie and I have a guy on my [01:20:10] left, I could shoot or I could use the guy, but I just use what’s available to you. [01:20:15] Um, the awards are there. I’m agnostic towards it. I’m, I’m very much like, [01:20:20] is this beneficial to me? Are patients going to come through the door if I use this? [01:20:25] And am I going to get in trouble if I use this? So the answer is no. I’m not going to get in trouble. I can use it. [01:20:30] Other people are using it. Um, patients are going to come through and it’s going to give you proof. And I’m happy [01:20:35] in what I’m doing, but it’s just something else that’s going to give you more proof. Um, I’ll use it. What’s [01:20:40] your goal? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to help more people? Yes. [01:20:45] So if you win an award, whatever kind of award [01:20:50] it is, which there’s all these companies or whatever. But let’s say now you win one and you put it on your website. Do [01:20:55] you think reasonably you’ll get X number more people coming through when they see that [01:21:00] the answer would be yes, right. Compared to what.

Payman Langroudi: I get, though, of course I get that. Yeah, of course I get that. [01:21:05]

Ali Al Hassan: So and that means you can help more people. Don’t you want to help more people?

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. But look, we have [01:21:10] them. Yeah, yeah we have. I can pay 1500 pounds. Yeah, yeah. [01:21:15] To eight different organisations and get eight awards. Yeah. Should I, for [01:21:20] enlightened say, oh, best best teeth whitening system. [01:21:25] This most improved. It’s very easy. You know about this? There’s companies that sell those [01:21:30] awards. Yeah. One of one of our competitors loves them. Yeah. Yeah. Should I now. I [01:21:35] don’t want to. It’s not. It’s not what I’m about. Yeah, yeah. But but it’s not the end of the world.

Ali Al Hassan: But does it. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: But but I’m not even saying.

Ali Al Hassan: Is it about you? You’re not talking about you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying.

Ali Al Hassan: Just use it as a marketing [01:21:45] tool.

Payman Langroudi: I could do, I could do.

Ali Al Hassan: Why wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Should I do you buy? I [01:21:50] just buy a bunch of awards.

Ali Al Hassan: Do you want your business to do better?

Payman Langroudi: I’m not necessarily saying it would. [01:21:55] See, that’s. That’s.

Ali Al Hassan: So you physically think it wouldn’t translate to much?

Payman Langroudi: So it’s important in B2B. Definitely [01:22:00] in B2C is different, but in B2B, yeah, if I bought eight awards that anyone [01:22:05] can look and see, these are bought awards.

Ali Al Hassan: No, no, but no, but that’s your you’re in a bubble [01:22:10] there.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, B2B, B2B is a.

Ali Al Hassan: Bubble. No, I know, but no, but 90, 90% [01:22:15] of dental practices probably still don’t even know the. Not 90, but like half [01:22:20] of dental practices don’t even know the awards even exist still.

Payman Langroudi: Well, why don’t you put professor [01:22:25] in front of your name?

Ali Al Hassan: But when they see it.

Payman Langroudi: You know what.

Ali Al Hassan: I mean? Yeah, I, I don’t I.

Payman Langroudi: Because I get [01:22:30] into trouble. You’re saying yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah yeah, yeah. If you exactly. But also I don’t even necessarily think that’d be good. But [01:22:35] look, if you have a website that offers a great service and let’s say a thousand patients come through it, just [01:22:40] if you now take that same website and you put an award in, it’s more proof you’re going to get more people. [01:22:45] So if your goal is you want to help more people, just think about what your foundational principle is. Is [01:22:50] it to is it to make lots of money so you can live your life and help the world? Is it or selfishly, [01:22:55] is it to help lots of people on a. Whatever your goal is, you’re going to be able [01:23:00] to do more of what you want to do. If you have more proof and an award shows proof to [01:23:05] other people, and if. And it’s not gonna, it’s not going to turn people away. The only thing that will [01:23:10] turn people away is your product. That’s the only thing that will ever turn people away. But [01:23:15] the more things you have as proof, that’s going to get more people, like through the door. Um, don’t [01:23:20] even it’s not an honour thing. People make it like all about honour and like, it’s not [01:23:25] that it’s look, we’re gonna, we’re on this, we’re in this on this planet for like a [01:23:30] minute. We’re going to be dead. Everyone’s going to forget everything about us. Just do the thing and do it to the fullest. [01:23:35] Like it’s not, it’s not that deep. Do if it’s going to help you do more of what you want to do, then, [01:23:40] um, then do it. So, so I’m on that side, but I totally understand what you’re saying. But [01:23:45] most people.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not what I’m saying. It’s, it’s what people are saying. Yeah. Some [01:23:50] people are saying, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s important. My point is, it’s important to understand [01:23:55] these concerns. Yeah. Like by the way, by the way, you could say, no, it’s not, you.

Ali Al Hassan: Didn’t used [01:24:00] to allow it to be even advertising for dentistry. Right? In the old days, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: You could, you could say, no, it’s not, it’s not. [01:24:05] I’ll focus on, you know, enjoy my life instead of focusing on these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if we’re [01:24:10] discussing what’s going on out there. Yeah. Like if I, if let’s say, uh, this, [01:24:15] uh, Israel Palestine thing. Yeah. Yeah. I, I actively [01:24:20] see search out Israeli news sources to hear. What are they saying? Okay. [01:24:25] What what are they saying? Yeah. Yeah. Even though overall, I feel like more worried for [01:24:30] the Palestinians. Yeah. Yeah. And let’s say I actively search [01:24:35] out, um, Nigel Farage content. Yeah. To see what are those [01:24:40] guys saying. Like what is the actual issue. Yeah. Blame immigrants for everything. Yeah. [01:24:45] But why, why is this guy having to blame immigrants to understand it? Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to vote for Nigel [01:24:50] Farage. Yeah. I’m not a pro like Zionist king or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to hear [01:24:55] what those people are thinking. It’s important, you know, because yeah, it’s very easy to tribally kind [01:25:00] of say, you know, one thing or the other. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m of the view [01:25:05] of just do what’s best for you. Like don’t even it’s not even about why you even part of the debate. [01:25:10] Just don’t waste your time on it. Do just ignore everything else and just do what you want to do. That’s my. [01:25:15] I’m not even like trying to. I’m like, what do you need to do? Stick to that. Do [01:25:20] more of that. And just whether that’s working, balancing doing [01:25:25] both of them, um, just do what you can to, to do more of that stuff. Yeah. And don’t [01:25:30] worry about what other people think, honestly, except for your parents, you should listen to your parents at all times. [01:25:35]

Payman Langroudi: Very nice caveat. Let’s talk about travel. You’re always away. [01:25:40]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So, um, once a month. I’ve got a long weekend. I [01:25:45] like to go somewhere, um, with my friends. It’s like a really, uh, it’s [01:25:50] like an amazing reset. Go somewhere for nights. That’s the sweet spot for [01:25:55] nights. Go anywhere. Go Europe. Europe’s really good in summer. You’ve got amazing destinations. Uh, [01:26:00] we’re going to Sweden, Stockholm, um, next [01:26:05] weekend, and I just find, uh, I’ve time I a timetable in my holiday like people [01:26:10] timetable in my work. I’m on a four week work timetable, so I’ll work [01:26:15] three and three quarters weeks. And then that last quarter I’ll take off. Um, [01:26:20] and we’ll go somewhere, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The same group of people.

Ali Al Hassan: Pretty much. [01:26:25] Yeah. You, if you, if you find people that you get on really, really well with, um, yeah, [01:26:30] literally like you’ve met Ali, like I go with Ali a lot. Iranian fellow Iranian, um, up in Manchester, [01:26:35] he’s a, he’s a funny dude. But yeah, if you, if you find, yeah, if you find someone you can just co-exist with, [01:26:40] um, and have a good time and have laughs. Like I think there’s no higher experience [01:26:45] for a man than just shits and giggles with the boys. That’s my personal experience. Look, [01:26:50] you can say family, you can say all of this stuff. You can say like the connection [01:26:55] with, um, a man to a woman and like, look, there’s no better male experience [01:27:00] genuinely than sitting with a bunch of boys, having a laugh, doing whatever you want to do. And [01:27:05] that crosses any kind of economic barrier. Um, so I like to do more of that [01:27:10] because I want to have loads of great times in my life. Loads of great.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, at the beginning you were saying not having enough time [01:27:15] for old friends. Yeah, that for me, school friends.

Ali Al Hassan: You have to break.

Payman Langroudi: School friends [01:27:20] are the ultimate. Yeah, yeah. University of course. I mean, I’m in I’m in business relationships with [01:27:25] people I used to live in. Yeah. I live in university with, but school friends, man, when [01:27:30] you say shits and giggles. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah, honestly, like, um, you know. The [01:27:35] holidays. Um, I would encourage anyone [01:27:40] to travel you. It changes you. You start meeting. [01:27:45] So, so one thing I’ve learned recently is, um, a superpower is just being able to meet [01:27:50] lots of people, which you do, for example, like through the podcast. And we’re very lucky in our [01:27:55] profession that we get to meet so many people during Covid when everyone’s locked up at home, we still got to [01:28:00] meet loads of people. It’s such a big I think it gives you so much life force that you don’t even kind of think [01:28:05] about that even even on the professional level. But then on holidays, you’re meeting people who are doing amazing [01:28:10] things in totally different industries. You make friends in different countries. [01:28:15] Um, it just inspires you and opens your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It feeds an extrovert, but [01:28:20] not an introvert. I mean, like an introvert gets tired by meeting people. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So I’m, I’m, [01:28:25] when I’m in my work zone, I’m very introverted. [01:28:30] I like to max out almost both. So when I’m in work mode, I’m these [01:28:35] days, I’m kind of just like keeping to myself, going to the gym, um, sleeping on my work days. [01:28:40] But when I’ve got like a weekend or I’m going somewhere, I really want to kind of like, you know, do the thing. [01:28:45] Yeah, exactly. Like, um, I think, but some people [01:28:50] do like that quiet, introverted life, like my, like my cousin. And then some people like want to be [01:28:55] fully out there and whatever. Um, sometimes I ask myself, which one do I fit into? Because [01:29:00] I can be comfortable in both. And traditionally I’ve been the introverted person [01:29:05] in a university. I was very like, I had my close group of friends, but I wasn’t like a very social [01:29:10] person. But then, but now, like you go to like whatever south of France or you, [01:29:15] you go on these summer holidays to like Mykonos and, and you’re meeting all these like amazing people doing [01:29:20] great things, business owners, um, enjoying life. The sun’s shining and that [01:29:25] kind of seems amazing to us.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me about, um, Dental [01:29:30] excellence and Robbie because you you, uh, got [01:29:35] work there? Yeah. Down the road for me, I, I tried it four times a day. Yeah. [01:29:40] Um, tell me about it. Like, how did you get involved with Robbie?

Ali Al Hassan: Robbie kind of mentioned it [01:29:45] to me, and I was making a move in London. I was moving from east London to west London. Um, [01:29:50] so it was kind of driven by my, just my personal. I was like, look, I’ve been in East London, boy, now [01:29:55] when I’ve been in London, I’ve been in Canary Wharf now for like five, six years. I was like, I want to be a west London [01:30:00] boy. Now let’s just see what the West like. So that drove it. So first I got a flat moved [01:30:05] up, and then I kind of put the word out. And Robbie also [01:30:10] let me know that he was kind of opening a location. And I’ve been through, um, it’s testament to kind [01:30:15] of the courses and stuff that they put together, but I’ve been through all of that stuff. So I understand their systems and [01:30:20] I, and I get on with their systems and I really get on with their people. Um, you know, I’ve taught a [01:30:25] few of Robbie’s courses as a delegate who’s been through it and then done like, you know, um, [01:30:30] like the injection mould and stuff I’ve taught and I’ve, I’ve done really well, obviously from that stuff. I’m very grateful. [01:30:35] Um, and um, me and Robbie have always got on as people, so it was kind [01:30:40] of like um, there was no job. It was just like, I’m moving here. I’m opening a place. Cool. [01:30:45] What days do you want to do? Done. And then that’s it. I’m there tomorrow.

Payman Langroudi: And are you [01:30:50] getting patience for that from your socials as well? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Pretty much just from mine. Well it [01:30:55] has just been from mine. I don’t even think they’ve got their, their marketing machine They’re getting [01:31:00] spinning now, but from now it’s been pretty much. Yeah, just just me. Um, [01:31:05] my, so my Instagram is like London, um, Swindon and Midland. [01:31:10] It just finds the right people. Yeah. You can see the analytics, but it just, it finds the right people. [01:31:15] I know my target market. It’s like, uh, 40% boys, 60% girls, [01:31:20] 24 to 35 age range. Um, you, you learn [01:31:25] so much kind of by, by looking, by looking at that data. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:31:30] you’re building this house.

Ali Al Hassan: I’m building a house. Yeah. So I bought a house. Um, and [01:31:35] so it’s, it’s near where my parents live in Swindon. So [01:31:40] yeah, like I, I needed to get a, I’m not gonna move into there, but I wanted to jump [01:31:45] on the property ladder. So I got a house, but it was a really doer upper. It was absolutely written off. The owners [01:31:50] died, um, two years. So they didn’t live there for two years. They were in old people’s home. They died [01:31:55] and it got sold.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re kind of doing build in public, right? Like, yeah, yeah, it’s step by step.

Ali Al Hassan: Exactly. [01:32:00] Yeah. So done the driveway doing the heating electrics. But that’s what life’s about. Honestly, life’s just [01:32:05] about new journeys. Um, I’m getting involved in investing. Like I love investing [01:32:10] crypto. Um, no, just, just literally finding financial investing and funds and stuff. Um, [01:32:15] when the, when the Covid, um, uh, bubble happened [01:32:20] for, for six months when everyone stopped working, um, the practices closed for [01:32:25] about six months or so. Uh, I took the bounce back loan and I stuck it in airline stocks against [01:32:30] the advice of my, um, accountant. Uh, but, uh, it [01:32:35] wasn’t even my idea. My dad’s friend works for Intel in their investment division, and I was like, [01:32:40] look, man, airline stocks have plummeted. No one’s flying. I was like, why don’t you just why [01:32:45] don’t I buy airline stocks? And, um, he was like, yeah, here’s a few American things [01:32:50] I’d look at, but he’s like, you’re not putting a lot of money in, are you? I was like, no, I put the whole 50 K bounce back loan [01:32:55] in. Um, and, uh, at that time, I had not a [01:33:00] clue what I was doing, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but you got the.

Ali Al Hassan: You know, about leverage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So I didn’t, [01:33:05] so I made an account not knowing that I was 20 times leveraged, [01:33:10] which is the that’s just on that particular platform. That’s [01:33:15] just how they start you off.

Payman Langroudi: So you made a lot of money very quickly and got addicted, completely addicted. So that’s [01:33:20] what happened. So I’ve not told you this story.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve not told you this story, but um, yeah, so [01:33:25] I’ll finish it. So I put this, um, I put it into airline stocks and [01:33:30] um, I just remember the stock going down a little bit further, but my 50 [01:33:35] k went to 20 K and I’m like, what’s happened here? And I’m like doomsday scenario. I [01:33:40] lose all of this. Look, if I lost all of this money, I knew in a year or two I’d earn it back. So it’s not the end of the world. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Ever stop? [01:33:45]

Ali Al Hassan: I remember speaking to my brother and I was like, bro, should I just take it out and just take this 20 out? I can [01:33:50] earn the 30 back in whatever. A year ago, he was like, no, bro. In for a penny. In for a pound. [01:33:55] Let’s see what happens. And then it was the first year of Covid. And do you remember when, [01:34:00] um, they started saying that after the summer that by Christmas everything will be normal? Obviously [01:34:05] the opposite happened, but towards the end of summer, everyone was like the waves kind [01:34:10] of gone. Covid, although it took three, four years in that first year, halfway through the [01:34:15] first year, they were like, by end of year, it’s going to be gone. Everything’s fine. Sentiment just kind of rose. And [01:34:20] um, yeah, like I, it [01:34:25] shot up. Yeah. Like crazy. Like, um, [01:34:30] mortgages were paid off. Um, got my dream car. That’s when [01:34:35] I got the black Gt-r. Um, um, and uh.

Payman Langroudi: From that one investment. [01:34:40] Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: My brother, my brother, my brother quit, my dad retired and [01:34:45] my brother quit medicine.

Payman Langroudi: You were massively leveraged on this 20.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, I was [01:34:50] 20 x Leveraged. So if you’re if your if your money’s was going to go up 10%, [01:34:55] instead, it’s going to go up ten times 20. So 200%. Okay. And, and [01:35:00] there was, there was a decent doubled. There was a decent like needle shift. Yeah. Like, like, [01:35:05] yeah, like three like, like it kind of like three exed almost. And then, [01:35:10] um, me and my brother became traders for a little bit. So remember I’m still not working [01:35:15] and neither can my brother. My brother sees this money come in and it just seems like, um, it [01:35:20] seems like it’s just on, um, uh, like a video game. It’s crazy. My dad just retires. [01:35:25] Yeah. So, so early. I’m not working anymore.

Payman Langroudi: You guys are good.

Ali Al Hassan: And, uh, [01:35:30] my brother, he was, he was doing he wanted to be an ophthalmologist. So he went in his second year. And [01:35:35] he was one of those very stud, like he’s, you know, you have to do all these poster presentations and you’ve got to be very nerdy [01:35:40] and like, kiss up to the consultants, but you have to do that to get into these specialities. And, um, [01:35:45] he was like, button this. He, and he just started working. Um, [01:35:50] he just started doing A&E. He became one of those A&E doctors for four night shifts [01:35:55] a week or three night shifts a week is like the same money as what a consultant earns, which is crazy, [01:36:00] by the way. But but I guess it depends if you’re money motivated or what you want to go into, but you earn the same money as [01:36:05] a doctor doing three night shifts a week as what a consultant salary is after working [01:36:10] for like, yeah, consultants earn base from like 80, but you earn 83 nights a week, you’re doing [01:36:15] 12 hour shifts, but you get paid like, you know, like there’s a shortage of doctors supply demand. Yeah, exactly. And [01:36:20] you get these big like locum rates, right? And he just started learning trading. So my brother’s a full time trader [01:36:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: Is he?

Ali Al Hassan: He’s. Yeah. So and this is going back to I can’t even remember the first year of Covid. [01:36:30] Was it 2019.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: 2020, 1920. Uh, because it started in March. [01:36:35] Right. I’m just trying to think if that was March 2019, March.

Payman Langroudi: 2020.

Ali Al Hassan: 2020. So it was that first year [01:36:40] anyway. So, um, we at that time, I’m like, I’m still doing dentistry [01:36:45] because I enjoy it, but I’m literally seeing patients in between. I have financial positions. [01:36:50] And um, at this time we didn’t know it, but, um, we, [01:36:55] we sold that, by the way, um, my brother, I took like half the money out, [01:37:00] thank God, because you’re gonna hear the rest of the story. Um, and, uh, we [01:37:05] had no experience with trading at this point, but we were just, uh, at that time, everyone had money. [01:37:10] Same reason why the Dental boom happened and loads of retail investors started investing, had [01:37:15] the same idea as me. Yeah. So pretty much whatever you buy would go up because [01:37:20] it was on a wave, right? And me and my brother were on Reddit. We’ve always been like kind of computer [01:37:25] nerds, gaming nerves. So we were on that Wall Street bets and we would just read the top [01:37:30] post that most people have liked it. Let’s buy this. It’s half a cent, and [01:37:35] some of these things were going up to like 4 or $5, uh, penny stocks. The reason we got involved [01:37:40] with penny stocks is my family’s like quite religious and my brother’s like, listen, leveraging is haram is [01:37:45] not allowed. You’re taking. You’re taking a loan. And. But the amount of money we’d made, normal [01:37:50] investing just felt like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there’s.

Ali Al Hassan: No.

Payman Langroudi: It was on steroids doing. [01:37:55]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So we. So then we found penny stocks. Penny stocks is like Wolf of Wall Street where [01:38:00] there’s legit stocks, which are like half a cent and people just nothing’s [01:38:05] happening with it, but people just pump it up together. If you can find a big enough group of people, they’ll [01:38:10] invest in it and it’ll go to like 3 or $4. And at this time, everyone was putting money [01:38:15] into the stock market.

Payman Langroudi: Someone had money.

Ali Al Hassan: So that was happening on steroids. And also people couldn’t go to work. Yeah, [01:38:20] yeah. You’re sitting in front of your computer. So you know, when you’ve always fancied yourself a trader, you’re going to do it now because [01:38:25] you’ve got nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Else to do. I’ve been there. I’ve been there. Yeah. Yeah. The problem with it, you feel like Gordon Gekko [01:38:30] when things are going up. Yeah. You feel so good.

Ali Al Hassan: So for the whole year.

Payman Langroudi: So, so.

Ali Al Hassan: So moving through that [01:38:35] year because it ended in February. But um, we, my brother, [01:38:40] um, literally went from like a five figure account to a seven figure [01:38:45] account. I had a seven figure account and we like. This is crazy. Our friends are [01:38:50] calling us like, uh, what? Like the world just felt like [01:38:55] a different place. It was for six months. February hit and we genuinely [01:39:00] thought, I’ll show you the screenshots after, but we genuinely thought, um, we couldn’t go [01:39:05] wrong. We were like, this is crazy. Every bet we’re making is spiralling. It’s either [01:39:10] we’re like, a bad case scenario is we’re making 20, 30%. A good case scenario is we’re like [01:39:15] 4 or 5 X our money. We have no concept of risk. We’ve not learnt or studied this [01:39:20] this stuff at all in any way. And then February comes around, people start going back to work [01:39:25] and um, the big climb down happens and we watched our [01:39:30] positions drop over a period of like 2 or 3 months by little drips at a time. We could have taken the money [01:39:35] out. We didn’t, but I watched seven figures go back down [01:39:40] to five figures over time. Just the pride of it, you know, I know I’m right. It’s [01:39:45] going to go up and we’re going to make more. I’m not I’m not taking half the money now. It’s just gonna just the pride [01:39:50] of it. And I’ve still got that just kind of sitting there like [01:39:55] I, if you can, I, I’m just going to show you something for a second if I can. We’re [01:40:00] not going to put it on the thing.

Payman Langroudi: But the problem is that the number of when you see the highest figure, [01:40:05] you kind of peg yourself to the highest. Yeah, exactly. Every other figure just seems incorrect [01:40:10] after that.

Ali Al Hassan: And so, and so my, my brother was like, um, when that happened, [01:40:15] then my brother. So luckily we took a lot of money out just from the initial thing. And very lucky for that. Um, [01:40:20] but, uh, my brother’s like, I’m actually going to learn this now full time. So he [01:40:25] just started doing. Yeah. So he properly sat down and he’s been doing it for years and now he’s doing it, he’s, [01:40:30] um, he’s, he’s, he’s pretty, he’s profitable now. And I’ve been investing [01:40:35] a lot of my money with him. Um, and, and in other funds like index, [01:40:40] I’ve got involved with index funds and, you know, like when you put your money in the S&P and it goes up 10% [01:40:45] and you’re like, if you do that for like 20, 30 years, it adds up to a lot of money. A lot of people don’t think about investing. [01:40:50] I’ve got so many dentists into it as well. Just put a little bit of money aside, max out your Isa, [01:40:55] tax free up, use family members as well. Um, you know, and [01:41:00] that money will kind of just multiply, multiply, multiply, and that will be like your nest egg. Um, but [01:41:05] we enjoy investing, but um, the amount of shits and giggles investments we made. Um, I [01:41:10] have to show you this.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you do that? What comes to [01:41:15] mind when I say, what’s the best lecture you’ve ever been to? The best lecture.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve ever been [01:41:20] to. The best lecture, the most. The biggest [01:41:25] lecture that comes to mind is not necessarily the best lecture. It was like a shock, but [01:41:30] it was our first anatomy lecture by Professor Moxham at Cardiff. Uh, [01:41:35] for people just left. They just started crying and left. We literally [01:41:40] lost four people from dental school in that lecture and I remember trying to write things down. [01:41:45] I’m like, what the hell is going on? Like, I’m, I’m not in school no more. Yeah. This is like [01:41:50] a space stock that I bought. How much down I am on that. Look how much down I am. The [01:41:55] amount of shits and giggles. Yeah. No, but that’s just what. That’s how much that’s where the [01:42:00] what? The fluctuations I’m talking about. I’ve got multiple just fluctuations like that. Um, [01:42:05] I’m back to dentistry now, but my brother does that stuff. But honestly.

Payman Langroudi: He’s an older doctor at all. No. [01:42:10] Interesting.

Ali Al Hassan: No. So now he just trades. Um yeah. He just trades and like, you know, [01:42:15] that that kind of, um, trading lifestyle and I give my money to him and he invests it [01:42:20] and um.

Payman Langroudi: Any other course or lecture come to mind.

Ali Al Hassan: So, uh, [01:42:25] course or lecture I really liked there’s a course called, um, have [01:42:30] you heard of, uh, assif. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Business course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:42:35] yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Squadron strategy. Really good. So there’s an FQ course and a Pip [01:42:40] course. Um, I think people get really hung up over the physical courses like [01:42:45] how to do this, how to do that. I think mindset and, um, having [01:42:50] systems is five times all of that stuff, all of that stuff. So I’ve, I’ve [01:42:55] mentored dentists who’ve literally tripled or quadrupled their income, not [01:43:00] from being any better at dentistry, but just to understanding, first of all, breaking [01:43:05] their limiting beliefs. Second of all, making sure that they’re communicating better with their patients [01:43:10] to, um, make sure that they know everything about their oral health and, and [01:43:15] positioning themselves better, um, getting better case acceptance and [01:43:20] zoning their diaries. So they actually have the diary space to do what they’re already doing, but 3 [01:43:25] or 4 times more treatment mix to, um, like not treatment mix. [01:43:30] And they’re doing the same thing and they’re literally double or tripling their the income? It’s crazy. Um, [01:43:35] I can go. So I’ve got, um, a friend of mine, very close. He loves doing crowns. [01:43:40] He’s like, I hate doing composite. I hate doing, um, uh, Invisalign, [01:43:45] but I do like doing indirect. I do a little bit of indirect this and that.

Ali Al Hassan: And I was like, oh, cool. Um, so how many [01:43:50] crowns are you doing? Uh, like a week? He’s like, I do, I do like one every day. [01:43:55] And I know he hasn’t. He’s, I’ve talked to him before. He’s in an old demographic kind of area. And I was like, how many [01:44:00] exams are you doing a day? He’s like, I’m doing, um, about, uh, 15 [01:44:05] to 18 examinations every single day on like old people. I was like, [01:44:10] I might be wrong on this, but if I’m seeing 15 to 18 old people [01:44:15] every day, I see very I see 2 or 3 consultations. I’m totally different to him. But I was like, if I’m [01:44:20] really being honest, if I’m seeing, uh, ten old people’s teeth every single [01:44:25] day, I reckon I would find a use case where you need, [01:44:30] you know, a crown maybe I would say, you know, probably ten times on ten patients. [01:44:35] Like there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s going to be big fillings there that ultimately will last longer if they’ve [01:44:40] got cuspal coverage. There’s going to be, um, failing restorations. There’s going to be [01:44:45] cracked teeth, there’s going to be this and that. And, and um.

Payman Langroudi: So it seemed low to you.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [01:44:50] He, he wasn’t, he just, he wasn’t. And I, and he was like, um, he was like, yeah, I [01:44:55] mean, when people have these big fillings, I just kind of just leave it and I don’t say anything. And I was like, um, [01:45:00] when you’re doing an examination, it’s so important to be thorough [01:45:05] with it and letting patients know exactly what’s going on. Because the flip side is [01:45:10] you’re actually, I was like, to him, I was like, by not telling these patients that there is an option of a crown, [01:45:15] you’re, you’re not only missing it, you’re being negligent. They could turn around. That tooth could fracture. [01:45:20] You never offered it. And let’s say they they could make an issue for you. You need [01:45:25] to lay everything out on the table. So many dentists don’t even kind of lay [01:45:30] it out, or they have a self-limiting belief that someone’s come in with, [01:45:35] with, uh, you know, six amalgams in their back teeth or all and, you know, evidentially, [01:45:40] if you crown those teeth, they will last longer in my opinion. Um, [01:45:45] and, you know, or, or they have cracks in them, but you see that there’s six [01:45:50] of them and you don’t want to tell the patient because you’re like, I don’t want to stump up this big sum of money because [01:45:55] I’m feel uncomfortable having that conversation.

Payman Langroudi: But Frank Speer talks about it in, [01:46:00] in, in the terms of like, if your mother goes to a cardiologist, yeah, you want [01:46:05] the cardiologist to give you the full story. Yeah, just.

Ali Al Hassan: Lay it all out and you will be shocked by [01:46:10] how many people actually want you to help them.

Payman Langroudi: But the, you know, if the hand [01:46:15] on heart truth on whether or not you’re on lay is going to make this tooth [01:46:20] last longer. Yeah. Or a crown or a crown. Yeah. It needs to be [01:46:25] nuanced. It needs to be nuanced in insomuch as you know, the amalgam has been there for 30 [01:46:30] years. You take that amalgam out, you cause a problem sometimes, right? And it’s, you know, this [01:46:35] is this is consent, right? This is what consent is.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. But give them the option.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Give them the option. Um, [01:46:40] and um, just by laying out the options, getting an intra oral camera, taking pictures. [01:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: Scanner. Right. Yeah. Scanner.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Or you have.

Payman Langroudi: You bought your own scanner?

Ali Al Hassan: No, I’ve got the practices.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone [01:46:50] has.

Ali Al Hassan: It. Yeah. Yeah, everyone has one. But, um, if in terms of, [01:46:55] uh. But you can get a £30 intraoral camera if.

Payman Langroudi: You do you see jazz, jazz. Galati just did a thing. [01:47:00] Uh, I think he might have even selling it. He’s got this like a pair of glasses that has [01:47:05] a screen in it. And then the intraoral camera comes up on the screen in the glasses.

Ali Al Hassan: Oh, [01:47:10] yeah, that seems like an amazing idea. Yeah, exactly. But but for just to any normal [01:47:15] associate, one amazing tip, two amazing. A few amazing tips. Get, um, get a camera, [01:47:20] start taking pictures of your work. Non-negotiable. Just do that. Everything will get better. Your [01:47:25] work gets better because you see it time and time out. You see what didn’t go well. So next time you do [01:47:30] it, you’ll kind of work on it. Um, second thing is, is um get [01:47:35] an intra oral camera. Yeah. Um, TIFF’s really big on this too is, uh, when you start showing [01:47:40] there’s a difference between you telling and you showing. If you can’t afford a scanner, your practice isn’t going to buy a scanner. [01:47:45] You can get a £30 Intraoral camera that will USB in. It’ll be fine. It comes with [01:47:50] the sleeves, everything. Um, and, uh, don’t be afraid [01:47:55] to just lay it out for the patient. It’s not for you to decide what a high sum is or a low [01:48:00] sum is. Just make sure you’ve laid out all the information. Um, you’ve given your suggestions and [01:48:05] the options and just do that for every single patient.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, do you, for instance, give a patient [01:48:10] a treatment plan at the end of the examination? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So I’ll be like, I [01:48:15] think we should do this. They’ll come in saying, I, I, this is what I want to achieve. Um, [01:48:20] you active listening, you need to listen to them. You need to really hear what their problem is, what [01:48:25] they want. Um, make sure that they position yourself well. Position yourself [01:48:30] well. Means make sure um, you need to you are an expert in your field, [01:48:35] but you need to make sure you show the patient that. And that comes from your nonverbal communication, [01:48:40] showing the patient you’ve listened to them by repeating the information back to them and you [01:48:45] see them nodding. So, so subconsciously they’re ticking that box that this guy understands me, this, which you do, [01:48:50] but you need to show that to the patient. Otherwise they won’t trust you to do the treatment to help them. Yeah. Um, there’s [01:48:55] so many little things like this that I’ve kind of incorporated in the psychological game is [01:49:00] so strong. Remember, the ultimate aim is to help the patient, but you need to help the patient, help themselves [01:49:05] to trust you and believe in you if you believe you’re doing the right thing, which we all do. Um, [01:49:10] so, uh, yeah, get get the patient in position yourself. Well, make sure [01:49:15] you hear the problem. Be clear about what the problem is. Then you do your clinical stuff. [01:49:20] Um, communicate back to the patient regarding what’s going on, and then tie it off by [01:49:25] saying, this is how that’s going to fix your problem. And these are the treatments that I recommend. I’m [01:49:30] not a you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. It’s your choice. Yeah. [01:49:35] It’s not that’s personally, I think that’s not, it’s not helping you and it’s not helping [01:49:40] the patient.

Payman Langroudi: I think as he talks about this. Right.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that’s what going back to that course there [01:49:45] they they they got off their bum. They left home. They if you go [01:49:50] do you go to Asda for no reason. No, no. You go to Asda because you need to buy something [01:49:55] there at the dentist because they want you to give them your opinion. Yeah. Um [01:50:00] I’m very much give give your opinion and back yourself up. If you, [01:50:05] if you start letting the patient run around with um and choosing everything, I think that’s [01:50:10] how a lot of people run into issues and problems because then they’re doing something that they don’t [01:50:15] fully back themselves. Um, and then that’s going to snowball into incidents with patients. [01:50:20] You know, I do so much, um, composite bonding. I never [01:50:25] discuss shade with patients.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I literally just say, do [01:50:30] you. I listen to what they say. Yeah. They either say I want. [01:50:35] I can’t remember the last time I got shade about. We don’t even talk about colours. They either say they want [01:50:40] really white teeth and I know what shade that is or they say they, they [01:50:45] um want composite bonding and they’re like they like said and said person. I use [01:50:50] three shades. I literally use three shades. Um, the whitest of the white shade, the, [01:50:55] the, the, the normal composite bonding shade. That’s quite white, but it’s not the whitest [01:51:00] of the white. Yeah. And then the slightly toned down BL for kind of just [01:51:05] above B1 version for the people who aren’t natural, just make it simple. That’s yeah, that’s that’s [01:51:10] the tone down. That’s the tone down in my, in my demographic. That’s the tone down me and you are far away from [01:51:15] that, by the way. We need to, we need to get some whitening done. After this, you should do a podcast [01:51:20] while whitening, but we won’t be able to talk. Um, but, uh, and they, um, they. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: They did discuss whether you’re going to do with you decide yourself.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I’m like, yeah, I, I just do [01:51:30] it just, um, take it in your hands.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever done bonding in the patients hated it.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve [01:51:35] had um.

Payman Langroudi: Too bulky sometimes.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had, uh, 90% [01:51:40] of people, uh, half the people are shocked, but then happy [01:51:45] a few weeks later and half the people are happy straight away. I’ve had a handful of cases where they’ve just started crying [01:51:50] and they’ve said, take it off. But from me, from myself, I’m happy with [01:51:55] how it looks. And I wouldn’t let you look at the teeth if I wasn’t happy. So [01:52:00] I know you walking around with these teeth is going to be a compliment to you and not a detriment. And I believe [01:52:05] that to my core. And I’ve refused and said, look, I’m I’m not going to I could take it off. I’m not going [01:52:10] to give me two weeks. Yeah, yeah. I’ve, I’ve. And both in both [01:52:15] of those cases, I’ve not had to take the composite off. They’ve come back and been fine and I’ve not [01:52:20] touched would ever had to. Um. Yeah. Just do it and just take it off. You know, like those turkey [01:52:25] cases where I had a patient message me yesterday who went to Turkey, got it done, hated it. And she’s like, they’re taking it all off [01:52:30] in the morning. I’ve had to do that for other people who’ve been elsewhere, but I’ve [01:52:35] never had no, none of my patients who’ve had composite bonding have gone back to not bonding. Uh, luckily. [01:52:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: And do you recognise the sort of the fragility [01:52:45] of composite and. Yeah, absolutely. It’s not the best material [01:52:50] in the world.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s not, but it works.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very unforgiving, very unforgiving, um, [01:52:55] material.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s unforgiving. Again, if you’ve not put in the hours.

Payman Langroudi: You take time on each, each [01:53:00] tooth like longer than, longer than people think. Right to get.

Ali Al Hassan: It. So I’ll do, I’ll [01:53:05] do ten teeth, composite veneers, ten teeth. I’ll do, but it’s slow down over time. [01:53:10] But now I’ll do. Um, sorry, it’s sped up over time, but these days I’ll do ten teeth [01:53:15] freehand. I will do in probably about an hour and a half to two hours. No way. Yeah, I’ll do 20 [01:53:20] teeth in a morning, like from an 830 to and and that’s like with time to spare. But [01:53:25] it used to be a full arch in a full morning when I did that mini smile case, I think it was eight teeth. Yeah, [01:53:30] it was the whole morning. And for the longest time it was like that. But um, you, [01:53:35] you say you, you mentioned that it is technique sensitive and everything, but just [01:53:40] put the 10,000 hours in, everything becomes predictable, uh, in the scope [01:53:45] of time. Once you’ve done it enough times and you just understand it works. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:53:50] the key to it then.

Ali Al Hassan: The key to it is.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the keys to.

Ali Al Hassan: So the keys [01:53:55] to it is, is use a material that works in your hand. So Venus Pearl has always [01:54:00] worked very well for me. So I’ve always used Venus Pearl. Um, and stick [01:54:05] with it. Um, go on a course which teaches you more like the full [01:54:10] arch approach, if that’s what you want to do. Which mini smile makeover gave me the confidence to do that and [01:54:15] have that case lined up?

Payman Langroudi: Many of your cases are injection moulding compared to.

Ali Al Hassan: I [01:54:20] don’t injection mould at all anymore. Yeah, injection moulding was like a season. I probably did [01:54:25] like 100 120 cases.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you feel like you don’t have enough control? [01:54:30]

Ali Al Hassan: I kind of, um. No, no, no, it was just it was just business lab fee. Oh, [01:54:35] no lab fee. Now, I was able to kind of I was able to recreate it 80% [01:54:40] as well for you. Once you see those teeth shapes so many times [01:54:45] and then you’re doing the modifications after anyway, you just, you’ll just get an eyeball for it. [01:54:50] So what I would say is actually injection mould teaches you the free hand. It’s almost the training [01:54:55] wheels for the free hand. Um, and then when you see those shapes so [01:55:00] many times. Yeah. So, you know, I don’t actually, um, you know, I finish my teeth upside [01:55:05] down, you know, all the, you know, all the smile of yours you see On [01:55:10] the video or whatever when you see them. I’ve not seen the teeth yet. This [01:55:15] way around until the patient sees them. That’s one weird thing about me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t bring the patient up to check. [01:55:20]

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve never seen them until I see them in the mirror on my mum’s life. Every [01:55:25] finish you’ve seen, I’ve finished with them like this. And I’ve been behind them upside [01:55:30] down, taking the picture, sat them up. And then we do the reveal. And that’s the reveal. And [01:55:35] I see them the same time as them.

Payman Langroudi: I’m shocked.

Ali Al Hassan: But it’s what you’re used to.

Payman Langroudi: I’m shocked. [01:55:40]

Ali Al Hassan: I’m used to seeing teeth upside down. I’m used to seeing teeth upside down.

Payman Langroudi: You need to bring him up to.

Ali Al Hassan: It [01:55:45] kind of makes sense, right? But no, I’ve not needed [01:55:50] to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s your. It’s your superpower.

Ali Al Hassan: When when I see. I think what it is is when I see them smile before [01:55:55] I can kind of see where the lens needs to go and not go. And I have the memory to remember that when I’m [01:56:00] doing it that way. Um, and so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got something on the screen you’re copying?

Ali Al Hassan: Sometimes I’ll refer [01:56:05] to if it’s difficult. We’re changing a lot. I will get my camera and look at their smile picture and [01:56:10] I’m like, wait, how much do we need to add to this incisor I’m doing upside down, but when the patient [01:56:15] sees their teeth right side up, that’s first time I see the teeth right side up every single time. Um, [01:56:20] we’ve genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: Come to it’s.

Ali Al Hassan: Whatever your quirks are, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [01:56:25] come to the end of our time. I’m gonna, I’m gonna end it with the usual questions we ask everyone, okay, fantasy [01:56:30] dinner party three guests. Dead or alive. [01:56:35] Who who are you thinking?

Ali Al Hassan: Fantasy dinner party. [01:56:40] Um. Elon Musk is going to be there. Uh, [01:56:45] Mbes. Mohammed bin Salman [01:56:50] is going to be there. Oh, yeah. Um, who else do I really? There’s [01:56:55] loads of people I’d want to talk to. Who else would I want to talk to? Um. Just [01:57:00] someone who’s very, very [01:57:05] Accomplished. Um, I’d [01:57:10] also want to. They’re the two that stick out to me. I almost can’t even, like, think of a [01:57:15] third, but I really want to meet and speak to Elon Musk. Um, and [01:57:20] I, I would, I, I’ve always like, I mean, I would say another guy is, um, [01:57:25] uh, a guy called faker. He’s a guy, uh, he’s the, he’s the biggest guy in [01:57:30] a video game that I spend all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Playing.

Ali Al Hassan: And he’s like the goat. The best ever, unquestionably. [01:57:35] Um, they’ve done a world championship for this game over the last.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how [01:57:40] high did you get in the rankings? Be as high as like the 15 year old boys.

Ali Al Hassan: When I [01:57:45] was younger I was much better. And now I’m just like stuck in middle league. But it’s fine. Like I understand [01:57:50] like it’s it’s it’s all good. Um. Um, [01:57:55] I just, I just feel like he’d be very interesting.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a funny guy to speak to. One of my friends met [01:58:00] him. Yeah. He liked him. He liked him.

Ali Al Hassan: But yeah, he loves gaming too.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Ali Al Hassan: Right? Yeah. He loves her. [01:58:05] That’s he. The Saudis love video games. They grow up playing video games. Call of Duty, [01:58:10] all of that stuff. They’re very big on that. That’s why they’re importing a lot of their sports washing a lot of the video games [01:58:15] over there. Um, but I just think it’s a very interesting part of the world to be in. There’s [01:58:20] a few Leaders you could talk to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting what he’s doing with Saudi.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. But but also [01:58:25] just talking about that whole geography as a whole, like sometimes I think, what do these people like know that we [01:58:30] do not know? Um, you know, and like what the elites know that we don’t know all this stuff, [01:58:35] all this stuff coming out with like the Epstein files. I find that stuff really interesting. Like [01:58:40] I, I, I, I follow all of that stuff, um, with America and, [01:58:45] uh, yeah, I just like kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like a news junkie? Do you like.

Ali Al Hassan: Not a news junkie, [01:58:50] but more in terms of like conspiracy theories.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Me too.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So it’s not even [01:58:55] like everyday news. It’s more like stuff to do with conspiracies where it’s like stuff’s been hidden and [01:59:00] people don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common these days. Yeah, it’s very common these days.

Ali Al Hassan: The hidden world. I’m very interested in the hidden [01:59:05] world.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s a funny thing.

Ali Al Hassan: And I think over the last few years, I’ve seen part of The Hidden World from a lot of these [01:59:10] travels and meeting lots of people. I’ve seen things that I didn’t know existed. Um, I’ve had experiences [01:59:15] that I didn’t think were possible, um, without going into too much detail, but, um, you [01:59:20] start seeing that there’s stuff out there that you didn’t even fathom as an experience, [01:59:25] you know, growing up, you didn’t even know if it’s existed.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny because like, I [01:59:30] don’t know, I was a conspiracy theorist when it wasn’t fashionable to be conspiracy theorists. And I say [01:59:35] to my friends, guys, they’re recording everything. They’re like, your phone is constantly recording [01:59:40] you or something. Yeah, yeah. And a couple of my friends did an intervention. They were like, dude, we’re [01:59:45] really worried about you. This sort of thing. Really? Yeah. Ben.

Ali Al Hassan: Did you put a sticker on your [01:59:50] laptop? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I saw. I saw so many. Like, I saw Bill gates sticker on his lap.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [01:59:55] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then. But then that Snowden event happened. Yeah, [02:00:00] it’s all true. When they said no, it is actually recording. Right. So why not? So I went [02:00:05] back to my buddies, my two guys who did the intervention. I said, what are you thinking now? And they’re like, what? And I said, [02:00:10] well, you know, Snowden and, and they didn’t they didn’t even like apologise.

Ali Al Hassan: Some [02:00:15] people prefer their heads in the sand and everyone’s different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some people just, you know, [02:00:20] um, silence is golden. Ignorance is bliss, right? That’s true. Um. Yeah. [02:00:25] Crazy. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: How do you how would you like to be remembered?

Ali Al Hassan: How [02:00:30] would I, I don’t, I don’t really even fancy being remembered. I don’t that’s not something I’m. I will [02:00:35] be forgotten. And I’m okay with being forgotten. But what I want to know is for me, I had an amazing life, [02:00:40] I did good, and I looked after my family. That’s. If I can do that. And if I’m ticking those boxes, [02:00:45] like right now, I’m happy remembered. You’re going to be gone. You’re not even going to experience it. Think about it. [02:00:50] So why even give effort?

Payman Langroudi: It becomes a big thing for people, you know, like, why does Trump want a [02:00:55] peace prize that your legacy?

Ali Al Hassan: I think if it.

Payman Langroudi: You as you get older, [02:01:00] it becomes a big thing for.

Ali Al Hassan: Me. I’ve never had I’ve never been an egotistical person. Like I genuinely. I’m [02:01:05] happy to be like, I’m the I, I’m, I’m just in my own bubble. I’m [02:01:10] living my life like I’m, you know, because people are like, oh, I want to set up my kids. And I’m like, [02:01:15] the opposite of that. I’m like, no, I want them to have, they’re going to have nothing. They’ve got to start from zero. I’m [02:01:20] not trying to, I think, um, I focus on my life. I want to have the best [02:01:25] I want to be on in years future. I just want to say that I lived a life that probably [02:01:30] like no one else, uh, or like, you know, I lived the top 0.0, [02:01:35] nought, nought, 1% life. Not like Elon Musk level. Um, he’s probably [02:01:40] done some crazy stuff. Um, but obviously and, and obviously on the good side, but I just want [02:01:45] to have experienced things, been places, done things. Um, you know, because you, only you, [02:01:50] you get one shot at it and then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re definitely squeezing the lemon man. You’re definitely squeezing.

Ali Al Hassan: I [02:01:55] want to squeeze it till there’s not a drop left.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. I like that. Long may it continue, buddy. It’s [02:02:00] lovely to see you. Yeah. I’m enjoying.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ll see you again soon.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Ministry of sounds [02:02:05] going to be good.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right. We’re going to have a bloody good time. Amazing. Thanks for doing this. [02:02:10]

Ali Al Hassan: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [02:02:15] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [02:02:20] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [02:02:25] Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:02:30] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [02:02:35] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [02:02:40] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [02:02:45] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [02:02:50] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [02:02:55] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the Instagram page at minimalist dot join [00:00:25] us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:50] Ashley King and Sophie Lovitt onto the podcast from Pearl AI. [00:00:55] Um, nice to have you. Finally, both of you. Would you both do [00:01:00] at Pearl? What’s your job title and what’s yours?

Ashley King: Do you want. Job title [00:01:05] or what we actually do? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Both.

Ashley King: Well, I mean, this is the I [00:01:10] would say probably everyone. Everyone says this about working [00:01:15] at Start-ups that you wear a million hats. Yeah. So I lead partnerships internationally, [00:01:20] but it’s so much more than that. I would say beyond that, a lot of go to market [00:01:25] strategy. For example, right now I just came back from Australia. We’re kicking off [00:01:30] there. We’ve been there for a couple of years, but now we’re really focusing on it. So looking for hire, getting new [00:01:35] partners out there with integrations, etc.. Sophie. Sophie, I feel like your role has changed [00:01:40] a million times at Pearl, but nonetheless, you’re very valuable.

Sophie Lovett: Who am I today? Um, yeah, [00:01:45] actually, Australia’s great, isn’t it? We kind of went into all markets and we’ve stripped it back. [00:01:50] And I know you’re working across every single time zone at the moment. And so I’ve just changed. [00:01:55] My roles just changed. I’m now doing the international market development. [00:02:00] I’m leading the team there. So this is exciting, but it doesn’t [00:02:05] mean that I’m not doing any of the old things I was doing. As Ashley said, we’re we’re [00:02:10] a Start-Up within a Start-Up. So we’re doing a lot. We’re doing the sales, we’re doing the go to market. We’re doing [00:02:15] the partnerships, but we have a fantastic team behind us.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:20] both of you on a plane a lot.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I’d say Ashley’s got more air miles than [00:02:25] me. Yeah.

Ashley King: I, when I, when I was flying back actually yesterday from, we were at [00:02:30] a wedding in Greece for one of our partners that we work with. And it was fantastic. [00:02:35] But I, I was thinking, how many hours have I been on a plane in the last month and I calculated [00:02:40] it’s over 100. Wow. Yeah. Which is insane.

Sophie Lovett: You did something quite smart, didn’t [00:02:45] you? You went to the to Australia and then the US, and then you’ve ended up back in the middle. So [00:02:50] it’s almost like you’ve outdone the jet lag.

Ashley King: Yeah. I don’t even my body doesn’t know what time [00:02:55] it is. Sometimes I wake up in the hotel room and I’m like, where? Where am I?

Payman Langroudi: When you go somewhere, do you do you [00:03:00] strictly keep it as work or do you like.

Ashley King: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: I give it a couple of days either side or.

Ashley King: I try to [00:03:05] write. I don’t I think I don’t want to look back at this time and regret having to [00:03:10] go to all these pretty cool places and not do things beyond that. Another really great thing, [00:03:15] and Sophie and I have done a lot of work travel together because we work on some of the same things, partners [00:03:20] specifically, and you really get embedded into the culture [00:03:25] when you’re going to see someone that works in a different country, like Norway is a great example. [00:03:30] Um, I knew nothing about Norway and I feel like I’ve really, truly started to understand [00:03:35] like how Norwegians think about certain things, their culture, their differences between, [00:03:40] you know, other, even Nordic countries.

Payman Langroudi: Norwegians are.

Ashley King: Cool. They’re cool. Yeah. And like they show [00:03:45] you around, you have a like guaranteed tour guide when you’re going for work. People love to show. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: You, right? It’s different to real tourism, like to normal tourism because it’s a bit [00:03:55] the difference between like getting an Airbnb and a hotel.

Ashley King: This is it. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of feel more [00:04:00] part of it.

Ashley King: Yeah. I’m like, I know, I know, I’m down with the Norwegians, you know, like I know what their vibe is. [00:04:05]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but they don’t let everybody in. That’s the thing, you know, every country’s different, especially in the Nordics. They’re [00:04:10] so different even between Norway and Finland and Sweden. And, uh, there’s definitely [00:04:15] a feeling when you’re not quite in. And then when you’re in, it’s such a good feeling. And yeah. [00:04:20]

Ashley King: I think the ticket there is, at least in Norway, it was going to karaoke. Uh, that [00:04:25] seems to be my ticket with partners is like, let’s do a karaoke night and just [00:04:30] maybe take a few tequila shots.

Payman Langroudi: What makes the decision as to whether you work with a distributor [00:04:35] or whether you set up an office and it’s like a company owned office?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, I mean, how do you decide [00:04:40] we’re running so lean? And also we don’t, like I said, we don’t know the culture [00:04:45] of even dentists and what they’re looking for. Germany, great example. They’re very [00:04:50] scared of AI in that country. So we don’t speak the language. So right now internationally, [00:04:55] our default is distributor.

Payman Langroudi: But not here, for instance, not here. So [00:05:00] why is that? I mean, how did that work out?

Ashley King: Oh man. I mean what would you say Sophie?

Sophie Lovett: Because we’re [00:05:05] here. We’ve got we’ve got a team here. Um, and you know, it’s English [00:05:10] speaking. And so this was just a place where we could kind of have a natural [00:05:15] hub. But we’ve realised with that some of the nuances of the different countries that it’s really, really tricky. [00:05:20] Like you said, we thought we could just go to Germany and kind of replicate the strategy. Um, but [00:05:25] what works is just not one size fits all. And for example, our Netherlands dealer, we, [00:05:30] I don’t even know how we got in with him, but he is fantastic. Um, [00:05:35] but we, we just kind of have the strategy down here. We work really well with distributors [00:05:40] and suppliers here, but.

Ashley King: I think also time zones, like simply for the fact that [00:05:45] our, our main office is in LA. So working with Finland, for example. [00:05:50] It’s like a ten hour time difference. It’s kind of impossible to be successful doing that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:05:55] I had I had Officer Tan, who’s the founder, episode 203 about [00:06:00] must have been two and a half years ago. Yeah. And anyone who wants to know how Pearl came [00:06:05] about needs to listen to that episode. But let’s just summarise what what is [00:06:10] the product? It’s an AI enhanced radiograph interpreter. [00:06:15] Is that correct?

Sophie Lovett: I mean you couldn’t have said it better. Yeah. [00:06:20] Essentially what it’s doing is it is looking at radiographs. And it’s using [00:06:25] millions and millions of pieces of data and data points to be able to interpret greyscale, [00:06:30] to look at all sorts of variables and have a look at different pathologies. So [00:06:35] in a matter of seconds, you take the radiograph and the AI is going to appear. So we’re looking at not [00:06:40] just caries. We’re looking at bone loss. We’re looking at periapical radiolucency [00:06:45] and we’re looking at nerves. We’re looking at all sorts of different things. We’re We’re looking at being able to compare it over time as well. [00:06:50] But it’s here to help enhance the clinician. Right. [00:06:55] So, um, it’s like spell check. You know, it’s there as a support mechanism, [00:07:00] but where the human eye is limited to, I think 50 shades [00:07:05] of grey. Um, this can see hundreds, thousands. So it’s [00:07:10] really there as a second opinion, an assistant tool for reading those radiographs. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: But a communication tool too. Right. I mean, I don’t know. I haven’t practised [00:07:20] for a few years now, but you that sort of blank face of a patient when you show them an [00:07:25] X-ray.

Sophie Lovett: Right.

Payman Langroudi: And people pretend to understand what you’re saying, but it’s very difficult. Yeah. [00:07:30] Very difficult to see what’s going on. So would you say it’s more of a communication tool [00:07:35] or more of a diagnostic tool or both or what? What’s the story?

Ashley King: I would say it’s more patient [00:07:40] education. Yeah. And I think dentists forget that [00:07:45] non-clinical people, when they look at an X-ray, we have no clue what [00:07:50] is going on. Yeah, and I’m guilty of this even in my life, talking about AI with my friends, I’m [00:07:55] like, oh, well, okay, I thought this was, you know, beginner level knowledge. [00:08:00] And then I talked to my friends about certain AI tools that I’m using. And they’re just like, minds [00:08:05] are blown. So I think it’s very easy to forget when you’re deep into a field [00:08:10] that actually this is like, I don’t know, rocket science to [00:08:15] people, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: So my friend came home once and she [00:08:20] said to me, because she’s my old housemate, she said, my dentist has given me a filling. [00:08:25] I said, your dentist hasn’t given you a filling. You know, you’re not flossing. Uh, [00:08:30] uh, you know, you’re not maybe brushing the right amount of time, not using a fluoridated toothpaste. [00:08:35] You’ve kind of given yourself a filling. I then showed her the AI, not her own [00:08:40] radiograph, but just kind of an example. And it was that real eureka moment. There’s [00:08:45] a fantastic dentist in the north. Doctor Kunal Rai from Meliora Dental, and he posted something [00:08:50] yesterday on Instagram of an area of decay that hadn’t quite gone [00:08:55] past the enamel yet. So it was showing up on pearl as this yellow [00:09:00] blob. And then he put up a post saying the patient didn’t accept [00:09:05] treatment. Um, so he was looking at early preventative treatments. And now this area of decay had progressed [00:09:10] past the enamel into the dentine and beyond. So now the patient is [00:09:15] accepting treatment. But last year they hadn’t seen that the pearl, they hadn’t seen the colours. They hadn’t seen the tooth part segmentation. [00:09:20] So they just didn’t get it. So they didn’t work early enough to do something that would [00:09:25] have helped preserve the lifespan of that tooth.

Payman Langroudi: And then what about what are the [00:09:30] problems with it? I mean, false positives. False negatives.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean what’s [00:09:35] the rate of that? Have you got a rate of of errors that it makes.

Ashley King: It’s dependent on the image quality of course. [00:09:40] Yeah. So it’s hard to quantify that, but I mean, anyone that uses [00:09:45] AI knows that it doesn’t always get it right. Sure. So I say it’s like your GPS or [00:09:50] sorry, you call it satnav here. Um, it tells you where it thinks [00:09:55] you should go, but you’re still the one driving the car, which is why it’s called second opinion.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:10:00] Um, so we have some of the most fantastic minds at Pearl. [00:10:05] So we’ve got a computer vision team. They’ve just improved our caries model by [00:10:10] 13%. So when we’re looking at provided [00:10:15] the quality of the image is acceptable, we’re looking at about 9,394% [00:10:20] accuracy. But then within that with, as I said, we’ve just improved that by another [00:10:25] 13%. And so we’ve got some fantastic minds working on it. But the reason that it’s [00:10:30] not here to replace is because it’s not perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: That’s, you [00:10:35] know, it’s always going to have to work alongside a clinician and equally, you know, do you want a here is your [00:10:40] report from a computer? No. It has to still be delivered by the clinician. I like [00:10:45] the fact it’s not perfect because if you ask me, this is controversial. I’m going to say it.

Ashley King: I [00:10:50] like.

Sophie Lovett: It. I hope, I hope no one’s listening. I personally wouldn’t let [00:10:55] students have it straight out of university. I’m sorry.

Ashley King: That’s contrarian.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:11:00] Because I think people really need to cut their teeth on being able to read radiographs as well [00:11:05] and being critical of the AI. The reason that we [00:11:10] have approvals and we have certifications is because it has been proven [00:11:15] that when you work with the AI, the clinicians, the clinician, and, you know, [00:11:20] together they work better than if it was just one or separately. But I do really [00:11:25] think it’s important that we don’t just fully rely on something. Um, yeah. [00:11:30] So that’s, that’s, that’s my controversial opinion.

Ashley King: I, I will, I agree with you [00:11:35] to a certain level. So I think that it’s a good, It shouldn’t be the default. So for [00:11:40] example, now in university, everyone’s writing their essays, right? With ChatGPT or whatever [00:11:45] their LLM is. And personally, I wrote some very [00:11:50] long, robust research papers in uni. And I think that it taught me a lot. [00:11:55] So but I wish that I had ChatGPT to do two things. [00:12:00] One, like spell check and just maybe give some suggestions, but two, to do [00:12:05] the sources because that was the worst. But I think if I was a clinician that was just entering [00:12:10] the field, I would use it after I looked at it first, essentially as like you said, a spell check. [00:12:15]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And actually, I find that most clinicians are quite competitive anyway, which is great. You know, what [00:12:20] do you got to do. Get four A’s at a level now to become a dentist? Three. Three. Yeah. [00:12:25] Um so you know, they’re pretty good anyway and they’re quite competitive. So where [00:12:30] it takes ten 20s anyway for the AI to overlay, a lot of clinicians are [00:12:35] kind of competing with themselves. And then, you know, it comes through and it’s, oh, gosh, you know. Yeah, yeah, [00:12:40] it’s a.

Ashley King: Good way to think about.

Sophie Lovett: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because [00:12:45] what will happen to society because of AI is the [00:12:50] first time you can’t tell in 3 or 4 years time what life is going to be like.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, really. [00:12:55] But what about the industrial revolution? I mean, we.

Ashley King: Would have the internet when it came out. We didn’t know Uber [00:13:00] would exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the rate of it is really quite crazy. My daughter says she wants to be a dentist [00:13:05] and she’s 16. And I’m saying by the time she becomes a dentist eight [00:13:10] years time, surely a robot’s going to be doing it, you know?

Ashley King: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Man, what does [00:13:15] it take? It takes it takes a brain. The brain’s already better than ours. Yeah. It takes AIS. [00:13:20] It gets X-ray vision thing going on. And then. Are you telling me they can’t make hands better than these? [00:13:25] They’ll make hands that can rotate. 360 hands come out of their hands. You know what I mean?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but you still got, you [00:13:30] know, where you look at that in surgery, where you’ve got people doing remote surgery, even from different [00:13:35] countries. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those robot arms are so much better than the, you know, the human shaking [00:13:40] hand. But again, I just see our relationship with [00:13:45] AI, with technology improving at the moment. We’re just we’re in the dating [00:13:50] zone with, with this sort of tech. And we don’t know whether they want to go steady with [00:13:55] us or whether they just want to carry on. You know, it is we’re all a bit unsure, but I [00:14:00] think that as we progress, we’ll find our relationship sweet spot with AI. If we don’t, that’s [00:14:05] a human problem. But do you know what’s making AI humans?

Ashley King: So I think the pendulum [00:14:10] is actually going to swing in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’re right.

Ashley King: People are going.

Payman Langroudi: To be in person. [00:14:15] Stuff will be, this is it. So we’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound, whatever. Yeah. But in [00:14:20] the same way as now, the pendulum swung like people want vinyl records.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s a niche thing. Yeah. So as a niche thing, yeah, I hear you.

Ashley King: I [00:14:30] don’t think that I don’t think it’s niche to want real human interaction. I think that’s just [00:14:35] how we biologically are. So I even think about going to a restaurant, right? [00:14:40] Uh, if there were robots serving versus, you know, [00:14:45] and sorry, you know, serving is once again another UK term, as we say in the US, robot waitresses [00:14:50] versus, you know, real waitresses. I’m going to choose the one with the real, even [00:14:55] if the robot ones are more efficient because I want to be around people. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: People buy from people. People buy from.

Payman Langroudi: People. I wouldn’t be surprised if my kids [00:15:05] married a robot.

Sophie Lovett: Well, that’s probably, well.

Ashley King: Not parenting male loneliness [00:15:10] epidemic. So maybe if you have any.

Payman Langroudi: Because like you look at you look at your discovery.

Sophie Lovett: I hope [00:15:15] you’re very proud.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, you look at your discover page. You look at your discover page. That goddamn thing knows you [00:15:20] better than you know yourself. Yeah, but so, so.

Ashley King: Scary thought if.

Payman Langroudi: The robot, if the robot [00:15:25] knows you better than you know yourself, like knows exactly what you want, and then you put some pair of glasses on and it looks like [00:15:30] whatever you want it to look like.

Sophie Lovett: And would you marry yourself.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] the programming is perfect? Yeah. Then then why wouldn’t you? You [00:15:40] know, in a way, it’s a bit sad to say.

Sophie Lovett: But I just think it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: As my children. My grandchildren. [00:15:45]

Sophie Lovett: Maybe your grandchildren will be. And we’re all very proud of them. And what [00:15:50] a great ceremony. And I hope it’s not too expensive for you. But, I mean, you could say, [00:15:55] you know, why didn’t the people who invented the wheel fall in love with the wheel? You know, we all fall in love with [00:16:00] some people do. But, you know, it’s just people are intrinsically [00:16:05] linked to people when we all saw each other.

Payman Langroudi: Have you enabled voice on ChatGPT [00:16:10] or Gemini? You can have a two hour conversation with.

Ashley King: Oh yeah, I mean, I do sometimes. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Ashley King: Absolutely. I did before this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve never done that.

Sophie Lovett: So I, [00:16:20] I always talk to it. Yeah. But I listened to an AI podcast [00:16:25] to see if I could listen to it. And it sounds so real, but it’s [00:16:30] so not. There’s just something about human.

Payman Langroudi: I know it’s very early days.

Ashley King: I [00:16:35] think there’s something like esoteric spiritual that you.

Sophie Lovett: Can’t.

Ashley King: Explain [00:16:40] when it comes to human connection. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Are we going to get to God, though? It’s [00:16:45] a bit early in the podcast.

Sophie Lovett: Payman always finds [00:16:50] God.

Ashley King: I mean, you know, there’s something bigger than us. We don’t know everything. [00:16:55] We don’t know why we’re here. So I think there may be unexplainable neurobiological. [00:17:00] They might be explainable as well. But you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right. We don’t know everything. That’s for sure. That’s for sure. [00:17:05]

Sophie Lovett: Can I just touch on that? Payman. Do you think there’s something bigger, bigger than us? Do you think there’s a [00:17:10] sort of higher.

Payman Langroudi: Higher energy? Whatever.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. We had this conversation in a cab in. [00:17:15]

Sophie Lovett: This.

Ashley King: Conversation after the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Show me. Every time we meet, we talk, [00:17:20] we talk about. We talk about God. Um, yeah. Listen.

Sophie Lovett: We [00:17:25] love.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, listen, listen. There is. There’s definitely something else other than this. This. Yeah, there’s [00:17:30] something else. But I think it’s more like, you know, doors of perception kind of thing. Yeah. That, you know, we [00:17:35] can right now perceive some stuff. We can’t see all the radio waves [00:17:40] and UV rays going on. So those things are here, but we can’t see them.

Ashley King: So the [00:17:45] 3D reality.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Ashley King: So what we see.

Payman Langroudi: But but the question of is there good and bad. [00:17:50] That’s where I sort of fall over. Yeah. Is there good and evil?

Sophie Lovett: I think we got really existential. [00:17:55] And I think this is probably you know, it takes us back to why do clinicians want [00:18:00] to use Perl? And I think you can use AI, or you can use Perl, or you can use whatever [00:18:05] for good or evil. You know, you can totally sit back and do nothing and [00:18:10] you can, you know, have something that’s a support. But actually everything works better when you have a good [00:18:15] relationship with it. Um, if I look at the best clinicians, I [00:18:20] know they are using every thing to give everything they possibly can for the patients [00:18:25] to give them the best consent journey, the best treatment planning. And if something [00:18:30] goes wrong, then they’ve done all that they possibly can. Things go wrong. Things go wrong all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting [00:18:35] listening to you. You’re talking and you’re using sort of Dental vocab. Like it’s like [00:18:40] second nature to you. But you’ve only been in dentistry for how long?

Sophie Lovett: Nearly three [00:18:45] years, isn’t it? I mean, I went to my first dental event when I was 18, so.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like you’ve [00:18:50] been in dentistry much longer than that, which is like, I guess a, you know, testament, right. But I [00:18:55] want to ask you, how long have you been in dentistry?

Ashley King: I started in dental [00:19:00] in 2018, so about eight years.

Payman Langroudi: But 2018.

Ashley King: I’ve, I’ve had a few pivots [00:19:05] along the way. I will say Sophie, clinically, she has far more [00:19:10] knowledge than me, but I think I think it’s because she’s just been extremely curious.

Payman Langroudi: But you went with Pearl [00:19:15] 2018. There was no Pearl.

Ashley King: No, I wasn’t I was with my now boss, Erica, [00:19:20] and we were at Voco, which is. I’m sure you’re familiar. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:19:25] so I want to ask. I mean, dentists think we’re so different, you know, to [00:19:30] everyone else. We think it’s a very like nishi. Interesting. It’s different to everything else. What [00:19:35] is it about dentistry that surprised you the most?

Sophie Lovett: I think [00:19:40] especially when we look at the comparison between the US and the UK, the UK [00:19:45] dental market is so small. Everybody knows everybody. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a cottage industry, right?

Sophie Lovett: It is. But it’s it’s tiny. And I think [00:19:55] that’s really exciting because you can work with people you actually really enjoy working with. And [00:20:00] I mean, when I’m at dinner and the dental chat gets [00:20:05] going, I honestly, my dad is just bored to tears with it when I’m with my father, my [00:20:10] poor father.

Payman Langroudi: But because both your brothers.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I have four brothers. [00:20:15]

Ashley King: And now I come to the family dinner sometimes.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s family.

Ashley King: And he’s like, please [00:20:20] don’t invite her. Don’t talk about dentistry.

Sophie Lovett: I was like, oh my goodness me, [00:20:25] what a boring conversation. It’s so exciting. And but it’s because [00:20:30] I think if you look at, um medical and GP [00:20:35] practices and hospital and stuff, I don’t think they’ve got so much choice about what they can do on a day to [00:20:40] day basis. Whereas I think principal dentists and groups, etc. [00:20:45] have a lot more access to technologies, to changes [00:20:50] in a way that’s almost unprecedented. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why he targeted dentistry, [00:20:55] really, because hospitals are, you know, the decision making process is so difficult. Yeah. And [00:21:00] you’re right, GPS are very slow to adopt stuff.

Ashley King: There’s so much more bureaucracy in healthcare and monopolies [00:21:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists like toys.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of there’s a lot of dentists [00:21:10] who are early adopters on toys. Yeah. But but you know, what are the reflections about dentists? [00:21:15] What you know, what, what is it about dentists that you sort of didn’t expect.

Ashley King: I [00:21:20] mean, I have a really interesting lens, I think, because I came from the US [00:21:25] and then to here, it’s it’s night and.

Payman Langroudi: Day difference between American and UK. So American is [00:21:30] much more commercial.

Ashley King: It is. And I mean, they go through more schooling. They spend a [00:21:35] lot more money on schooling coming out of, you know, with 250 [00:21:40] K in debt. And then but they’re guaranteed to make a lot more money. Right. [00:21:45] Um, some pulling the standard is 500. Probably, I don’t know. I would have to [00:21:50] look, but you know, millionaires essentially. And I think the reason people go [00:21:55] into dentistry is maybe a little bit different because it is more of [00:22:00] a lucrative career. I know that it’s lucrative here as well. But [00:22:05] in terms of your upside financially, um, it’s [00:22:10] more money focussed. Yeah. So if I’m being honest.

Payman Langroudi: Versus let me tell you an example, we do a composite [00:22:15] course here.

Ashley King: Right?

Payman Langroudi: We do the exact same composite course in Chicago with same teacher, [00:22:20] same content. Yeah. In Chicago we charge twice as much as we charge here. [00:22:25] Um, the every single dentist who comes to the class ends up [00:22:30] buying product. Every single one. Here we’d have to charge half as much. [00:22:35] And, you know, you get you sell a better stuff here and there, but it’s not like there’s not that [00:22:40] that sort of go getter ness from the dentist. Yeah. Um, so I’d [00:22:45] expect like selling Perl much easier in America than here. Is that correct or. No.

Speaker 5: I would say. [00:22:50]

Sophie Lovett: I think people are pretty open to it in the UK.

Ashley King: I think the [00:22:55] value translates in both.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Because it’s not solely about just [00:23:00] direct ROI. While that’s a big piece of it. It [00:23:05] also is about building patient trust and your day to day right. And offloading your workload. [00:23:10] This is a problem that exists in both territories. You know, dentists are running a [00:23:15] business. They didn’t go to dental school to run a business. They went to dental school [00:23:20] to learn how to provide great patient care. And that’s a problem that exists across every [00:23:25] single global market.

Sophie Lovett: You know what? I think you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Have you sold to American dentists? [00:23:30]

Sophie Lovett: Yes. It’s the easiest thing in the world. Yeah. I just put up the price. No. [00:23:35] Yeah. It’s I don’t know, it’s more.

Ashley King: Expensive in the US.

Sophie Lovett: I think. I think it’s just [00:23:40] because of the British accent. Hello. Would you like to buy something? You know, it could be. Yeah. It’s, [00:23:45] you know, so I, I don’t actually know how easy or hard it is to sell that, but [00:23:50] my experience is it’s fairly easy. But what was.

Ashley King: It Jackie like? Went to a show in [00:23:55] the US and.

Sophie Lovett: He made.

Ashley King: The most sales.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Americans love, you know, an English [00:24:00] accent, which.

Sophie Lovett: Is novelty factor. But I think in the UK where we do really well is you’ve [00:24:05] got people who purchase from us exactly as Ashley said, for the the return, [00:24:10] because it’s a product that very easily brings a return, but actually on the other side, [00:24:15] you have the clinicians who use it because they’re super moral, because [00:24:20] they want to give their patients all of the communication. They don’t ask [00:24:25] about any return on investment. They just want everything that is available for them.

Payman Langroudi: The latest thing.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:24:30] want the latest thing, but they want something that is, yeah, it’s all about the patients for some of them. So that’s [00:24:35] why we have we don’t really have an issue at all with when we speak with UK clinicians.

Ashley King: I would say what [00:24:40] this has happened to me a few times here in the UK when I’ve spoken to clinicians [00:24:45] is they’re doing a lot of NHS dentistry and this is [00:24:50] bad, but there have been a few dentists that have said to me, oh, I don’t want your tool [00:24:55] because, you know, we surface up to 30% more detections. And that means I’m going [00:25:00] to have to provide more treatment to my NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Patients supervised neglect kind of idea. [00:25:05]

Ashley King: Because if I see it on the now, I actually have to address it. So that’s [00:25:10] bad. But there are some dentists that think that way. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But the [00:25:15] thing is, though, again, there’s that moral thing of, okay, you may not be able to treat as much, but you’re [00:25:20] seeing far more. So you just have to be a bit more discerning about who you are treating. So it’s not a case of, [00:25:25] you know, I’m blindly not looking. It’s just they just have to treat the most important things. But [00:25:30] that’s, you know, that’s the problem that I see personally, um, [00:25:35] when I’m looking at England, Scotland and Wales as well, the devolved governments and how [00:25:40] different dentistry is and how it’s run in terms of the NHS. And I just don’t see how [00:25:45] it’s sustainable, particularly within England and Wales. And that’s one of the most eye opening things [00:25:50] about working in dental is the difference between private and NHS. I like [00:25:55] the Scottish system as a comparison to the.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a cheaper [00:26:00] item.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a fee per item, you know, it’s not perfect, but if you look at the comparison, if you look at the kind [00:26:05] of general happiness of Scottish clinicians, it seems on par Paul [00:26:10] more elevated. But the crazy thing is, is you’ve got people who know very little [00:26:15] about dentistry, puppeteering, things in the NHS. There was a [00:26:20] talk at the Parliament the other day, and they were talking about giving a few million more pounds to [00:26:25] NHS dentistry, and there was a nice little clap in the room. But a few million pounds is absolutely [00:26:30] nothing in the grand scheme of the NHS. So the biggest eye opening [00:26:35] factor for me is how can we get these people who have done really well at school, [00:26:40] who’ve gone to university for seven years, who are putting their heart and soul into something? How can [00:26:45] we pay them? How can we pay them better? How can we level the playing field between private and NHS? That [00:26:50] for me is the the craziest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I think it’s problematic, right? Because [00:26:55] if we compare to the US for instance, the healthcare. Yeah. [00:27:00] If if your grandma had an issue a medical issue. Yeah. [00:27:05] I’d be very happy to tell my grandma. Go to your local GP. Yeah. For free. [00:27:10] Yeah. And I’d be very happy for her to be referred to a local hospital for free [00:27:15] and be seen. And I think that’s a that’s a good level of care. Yeah. In the US they’ve got this thing about listen, [00:27:20] go find the best doctor in the country. And you know, the best doctor in the country isn’t going to be free. And you know, there’s that [00:27:25] level of agency people want with their healthcare. They want to pick the best guy. Yeah. [00:27:30] So there’s that. But if my grandma had toothache, yeah. I wouldn’t [00:27:35] hand on heart say go find an NHS dentist. I wouldn’t.

Sophie Lovett: You know, wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, because the NHS [00:27:40] hasn’t got time or money to fix that tooth.

Ashley King: It’s the time piece. Absolutely. I’ve [00:27:45] had a discussion with an NHS dentist at the show, and she was telling me how [00:27:50] just she has to move through patients so quickly, and even how second opinion would be great for her, [00:27:55] because then she would have to spend less time looking at X-rays. But I mean, it’s insane how what is expected [00:28:00] of NHS given.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite advice to friends and family. I definitely don’t find an NHS [00:28:05] dentist for this problem, but.

Ashley King: It’s not their fault, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s his fault, but the system’s fault, [00:28:10] right?

Ashley King: Exactly. And like Sophie, you said, they’re saying, you know, we’ll throw a few million at it. It’s like, well, it’s a fundamentally [00:28:15] broken system, which, by the way, I have many thoughts about our system in the US, insurance wise. Insurance [00:28:20] companies in general are just problematic in creating a lot of issues for us. But here it’s also [00:28:25] fundamentally broken. Don’t don’t throw money at it. Like look at the I.

Sophie Lovett: Mean, if you’re going to throw money [00:28:30] at it, throw more than a tenner as well, right?

Payman Langroudi: But there’s health care inflation as well. I mean, it’s the [00:28:35] crazy thing is here that we’re spending more on health per capita now than ever before. [00:28:40] And yet the NHS is more on its knees than ever before because stuff’s [00:28:45] getting more expensive. Health care is getting more expensive.

Sophie Lovett: Life is just expensive. And you have these specialist dentists [00:28:50] as well, who could be earning 300 plus thousand pounds a year, and they’re having to save. Now [00:28:55] people are having. Yes, it’s a we there’s a lot of issues that need sorting [00:29:00] out. Um, but, you know, essentially Pearl is there to make clinicians [00:29:05] lives easier. And there’s we love it, don’t we, doctor Amanda Bassey [00:29:10] Duke in in Scotland. So she just decided to take it upon herself [00:29:15] to time how much she was saving per visit.

Payman Langroudi: Because of per.

Sophie Lovett: Because of per. Yeah. [00:29:20] And we were saying this to dentists weren’t we. Up and down the country. She’s saving I think it was nine minutes, 33 [00:29:25] seconds or something. And an NHS dentist stopped me and said, you know, I’d [00:29:30] have less than six minutes left of my appointment. You can’t be saying that. You know, that’s the difference between Scotland [00:29:35] and England and saving of nine minutes in some Dental [00:29:40] per what? Per per appointment, per appointment.

Ashley King: In terms of diagnosing [00:29:45] herself and then speaking to.

Sophie Lovett: The nation, isn’t that incredible? So she actually took it upon [00:29:50] herself to time every single visit. She makes me laugh. She she, [00:29:55] if you ask her, why wouldn’t you have Pearl? She is [00:30:00] so fervent about it, you know, why wouldn’t you have it? It’s absolutely fantastic system. She just doesn’t [00:30:05] understand why everybody doesn’t have it. It has been completely transformative for [00:30:10] her. Um, and, but I just thought that was incredible case study. And we have some people who’ve [00:30:15] done case studies for us where it really surfaces things that we wouldn’t even thought about.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go [00:30:20] through the process. Let’s say I’m a dentist, I decide I want Pearl, I call you Sophie. What happens next? [00:30:25]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we look at what imaging system that you’re using and then we go [00:30:30] based on that. So if you’re I mean, we work with pretty much every single imaging system. So [00:30:35] we would then set you up with it. So it all happens remotely. You don’t need to do anything.

Payman Langroudi: No one visits. [00:30:40]

Sophie Lovett: No no, no, it’s all everything’s remote, you know, it’s a. And then what we would [00:30:45] do is you would just take your radiographs as you normally would, and then we can give you a system. So [00:30:50] it’s a separate web browser. And then you’d be able to access all the AI. So you can [00:30:55] access everything from there. But what we’re trying to do and this is where Ashley has been working, [00:31:00] is we’re trying to improve that workflow. So [00:31:05] we now work with the likes of Dental Vision. So the AI that you have in there, dental vision, AI, [00:31:10] DB, AI that’s pearls technology. So you’re not even having to move the you’re not even [00:31:15] having to change browser clinicians do not like clicking, do they? Actually, yeah, we work with we [00:31:20] work natively. So natively means when we are embedded within an existing system with [00:31:25] the likes of Care Stream and Rumex, I mean, you can talk much more about this actually, because you’ve been working on [00:31:30] those partnerships and getting them up and running.

Ashley King: Yeah. Your point about [00:31:35] clinicians not wanting to change their workflow has been a focus for us. [00:31:40] We want to make lives easier, not harder, obviously. Um, so yeah, I would say most of [00:31:45] the main imaging systems people are using in the UK and globally, like [00:31:50] the top 3 to 5 were integrated and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, what happens now? [00:31:55] You she’s got, she’s, she downloaded something and she’s got, she’s got the. Is [00:32:00] there training.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, we’ll pull from the server again. So it’s all just streamlined [00:32:05] there for you. So what I would say is so we’ll send out video training. Um, [00:32:10] you can train yourself on the things that you need to know in five [00:32:15] minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Sophie Lovett: And everything that is nice to know in [00:32:20] less than a day. And that is feedback that I’ve had from clinicians who’ve told me that it’s [00:32:25] scary again, actually, I think you mentioned earlier your friends saying about, oh, AI, and [00:32:30] we kind of just assume that people know exactly what we’re talking about. And I do not want to assume [00:32:35] that people will be able to learn in the same way or anything like that, but you [00:32:40] cannot break it. So what it will do is it will just overlay with the AI, you’ll have a list of pathologies, [00:32:45] they will automatically be selected for you. And then we have just this patient presentation [00:32:50] button which is called tooth parts, which is the colour overlay. Um, that is [00:32:55] the one button that I would want to just train on everything else. You can learn yourself edits, printouts, [00:33:00] enhancing the image, um, flipping it, changing it, inverting colour, etc.. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say I’m not on Dental. How do I get that that extra into the notes, the pearl [00:33:10] into the notes.

Sophie Lovett: Um, so in terms of your note system, what you can do is you can [00:33:15] just select to save it. So you can just pull it down as a PDF into your notes, so straight [00:33:20] into your notes. But what happens is because it’s a separate web browser, if you’re not in Dental, [00:33:25] for example, um, you can access it all the time. So I know when I first start [00:33:30] showing people it, they think, how do I get into my notes? How do I get back to it? It will all [00:33:35] stay there. One of the nice things about that is that that then makes it fully remote for [00:33:40] you as well. So where clinicians were, you know, using wet film or using, um, server [00:33:45] based products really kind of tied them to the [00:33:50] practice. Now you can access your radiographs from home or in your case, your, your yacht [00:33:55] in the Riviera, and you could do your notes from there, for example.

Payman Langroudi: Then. [00:34:00] Okay. How much does it cost?

Sophie Lovett: It’s £249 [00:34:05] per month plus VAT currently.

Payman Langroudi: Per dentist.

Ashley King: Per.

Sophie Lovett: Clinic, per clinic. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or per clinic.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, you know, what is it works out around pound per [00:34:15] patient in some practices.

Payman Langroudi: However many chairs I’ve got.

Ashley King: Up to.

Sophie Lovett: About ten [00:34:20] chairs 10 to.

Ashley King: 15. We’re pretty flexible on it. We have a.

Payman Langroudi: One chair and ten chairs. Same cost.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:34:25] So around 250 to £300 per month is what you’re going to your pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Your [00:34:30] pitch is you’re going to make that up in the in the treatment uptake because patients [00:34:35] will trust you more because is that what you’re saying?

Sophie Lovett: So as Ashley mentioned earlier, we are surfacing about [00:34:40] 3,033% more diseases being detected. So one [00:34:45] you’ve got that. So, you know, sometimes our eyes can be focussed on a specific area. We may have missed something. [00:34:50] Secondly that acceptance of treatment because of the. Aha! I understand [00:34:55] what I’m looking at. It’s far quicker. That’s where Doctor Amanda’s nine [00:35:00] minute, 33 seconds time saving came in. So yeah, quicker treatment acceptance. [00:35:05] If for example the patient isn’t the bill payer as well, we’ll give them something to take home [00:35:10] so that they can show somebody else. Seeing is believing. If I go to the mechanic, don’t [00:35:15] want to fix my car, but I really want to know what I am paying for. Um, [00:35:20] so when we’ve got patients who don’t know what it is because [00:35:25] they can’t feel it, you know, they don’t know what’s going on, you know, the second that you’ve got something that is, is [00:35:30] non-sentient, it doesn’t feel there’s no reason for the AI to be detecting [00:35:35] any more or less. It’s just that it’s a shame, but it’s that, okay, I trust you now. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, dentistry is a game of trust. 1,000%. Right? Because [00:35:45] most of the time you can’t tell as a patient anything that’s happened. Yeah. In your mouth, which [00:35:50] is hence, you know, people get lovely waiting rooms and stuff like that to try and say, hey, you know, [00:35:55] the other signs that I’m good other than the teeth don’t hurt. Um, [00:36:00] and then just get this wrong sometimes, you know, like the trust point is the [00:36:05] key point. Um, if you know, we have people asking us, oh, if I [00:36:10] drop the price, will I do more whitening? And it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: All [00:36:15] the time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a commodity, you know, like commodities work that way. Yeah, yeah. But it’s not a commodity. [00:36:20] It’s the exact opposite of a commodity. It’s like, you know, very personalised care. Yeah. And [00:36:25] the question of, you know, if I’m selling, we’ve got, you know, some guys got cheap whitening for £300 [00:36:30] and now we’ve got expensive whitening for £600, let’s say. Does it mean if I, [00:36:35] if I’m selling 600 will I sell half as much. They really people really believe that. Whereas [00:36:40] actually, if the patient trusts you to 300 they’ll trust you to 3000. [00:36:45] It’s the trust point. That’s the key. And I guess, you know, if I can increase trust with [00:36:50] Pearl. It’s huge. It’s huge. I wouldn’t for you guys. I wouldn’t even go in selling [00:36:55] pounds per second or nine minutes. I know these are things that you’re going to add on. Yeah. [00:37:00] But it’s trust. If I can increase trust from my patients, it’s gigantic.

Ashley King: I think we [00:37:05] forget as well how it does improve trust, because AI in [00:37:10] some instances has become a bit of a dirty word, probably because of fear. Yeah. [00:37:15] But we ran a survey and what was the percentage? 70% of 70 plus percent of patients [00:37:20] said that they trusted their dentists more because they were using AI. Yeah. [00:37:25] And it goes back even to the conversation we were having before about, you know, it’s about person [00:37:30] to person, interpersonal communication, all of these things, relationships. [00:37:35] You can’t replace that. And you have to build it in order to be [00:37:40] truly successful. There’s no AI will never actually replace that, but it can enhance it. [00:37:45]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I talk to students a lot of the time and they [00:37:50] I when they’re still at university and when they finish university. [00:37:55] And something I hear so much is my patients aren’t [00:38:00] accepting, I’m not able to sell it. The word sell in dentistry is a real surprising [00:38:05] word that I never expected.

Ashley King: It feels very American.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a real. It’s a. I think it’s a real shame. [00:38:10] Why is it that we’re having to. Or clinicians are having to sell what they know that they’re doing. So [00:38:15] if I walked into the hospital.

Payman Langroudi: You can you can stick another word in it, but it’s selling.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:38:20] you are like, because why are we convincing this patient that they need a root [00:38:25] canal? It shouldn’t be that we’re looking.

Ashley King: You know what, I imagine it feels like I’m not a clinician, but as a [00:38:30] when you go into the supermarket and you don’t buy anything and then you leave and you [00:38:35] are like, I didn’t do anything wrong. But I’m wondering if someone’s assuming that I’m like doing [00:38:40] something wrong. You feel kind of guilty and weird. That’s probably what it feels like when you have a patient walk in. [00:38:45] Maybe that doesn’t have pain and maybe you find, you know, three carries, you’re asking them to [00:38:50] get treatment and you’re like, oh, like you feel this weird feeling. [00:38:55] I imagine that’s what it’d feel like.

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist.

Ashley King: Will you.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me? You’re right, you’re right. And then often [00:39:00] you don’t know when was the last time this person saw a dentist? Yeah. And plus, get three dentists, [00:39:05] get four treatment plans, you know, like that’s it.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People disagree with each other. Um, [00:39:10] you’ve met my wife? Yeah. She’s a total let’s wait and see type [00:39:15] of dentist. She is excellent. And then you get the other type who’s like early intervention, like get in as quick [00:39:20] as you can before it gets any worse. Yeah. Like, you know, like, let’s crown it while we still [00:39:25] can kind of approach and very the US approach actually.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:39:30] might not be wrong. You know, those 3 or 4 different people who have got different decisions [00:39:35] on something, they might all be right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That too. That too.

Sophie Lovett: And then I think that [00:39:40] just wherever we have a vacuum and this happens so much in Covid, we fill that [00:39:45] vacuum with information when we don’t know, and that’s what patients are doing. And I think it’s so important that we [00:39:50] try to remember what it’s like when we knew nothing about dentistry, even [00:39:55] the language, you know, when the language was completely changed since I came into dental, that’s why I’ve got [00:40:00] my little Oxford Book of Clinical Dentistry, because the language I had to learn how to understand it. I’m [00:40:05] going to be completely honest. I didn’t know what a Carie was. I didn’t know what caries were trying [00:40:10] to.

Payman Langroudi: But now it’s so native to you. Like you trot it off. It’s nice.

Sophie Lovett: But then I feel like when I when I’m [00:40:15] speaking with people who are outside of dentistry, I would say decay. So again, I think it’s [00:40:20] with everybody kind of has to remember or we find [00:40:25] ourselves kind of just mixing within Dental. I think when you’re in it a certain amount of time. So then we just forget [00:40:30] the language of bubble. It’s a bubble. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about you live you live here now? [00:40:35]

Ashley King: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of kind of. Tell me about your reflections on like, London, [00:40:40] living in London. What’s what’s the best and worst thing compared to the US?

Ashley King: Oh man. [00:40:45]

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I like that.

Ashley King: I think London is the best city in the world, which is, [00:40:50] I know, a hot take.

Payman Langroudi: Even all the places you’ve been.

Ashley King: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashley King: And [00:40:55] maybe I’m just gaslighting myself because I’m here.

Sophie Lovett: But it is a sunny day today.

Ashley King: It [00:41:00] is also a beautiful day outside. Ask me next January. I’ll tell you how I really feel. But no. Um, [00:41:05] I think, Sophie, I think you said this to me. It’s a hard city to be [00:41:10] truly successful in. It’s almost like New York in the US where, you know, if you’re living [00:41:15] in London, it’s expensive. You have to be a grafter. And I think [00:41:20] there are some very hard working, intelligent people in this city. It’s not hard [00:41:25] to find them and people from all over the world. So I really like that. What [00:41:30] I don’t like about it, I mean, being away from my family, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:41:35] outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Come on, give us the scoop. Give us the tea.

Ashley King: There is some.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:41:40] surely service here can’t be as good as it is in the US.

Ashley King: Oh yeah. I mean, that’s true.

Sophie Lovett: I feel [00:41:45] like you quite like that though.

Ashley King: I like it when people.

Sophie Lovett: Are like to.

Ashley King: Me. I’m like yeah. Oh I [00:41:50] have to earn your love. Like bring it on. It’s probably some childhood trauma thing. Yeah, [00:41:55] exactly. Um, it can be a bit much when you go back to the US, but [00:42:00] like you walk in the elevator in five different people walk in and they all say hello to you. You know, especially [00:42:05] where I’m from, North Carolina, everyone’s very friendly, so it’s good in different good and bad in different ways.

Sophie Lovett: No. [00:42:10] Come on, tell us what’s the worst thing?

Ashley King: Uh, okay. You know that I’m, like, hyper critical of the US, [00:42:15] so I hope that anyone listening to this doesn’t think that I’m like, America is so much [00:42:20] better. We’re the best country in the world. Freedom. We’ll talk.

Payman Langroudi: About the worst things about America as.

Ashley King: Well.

Sophie Lovett: For [00:42:25] anyone listening. Ashley’s wearing a t shirt that says back to back World War Champs. Yeah. [00:42:30]

Ashley King: Um, I would say [00:42:35] there’s something so beautiful about the American dream [00:42:40] and the American spirit. Um, which is actually sort of dying in the US at this [00:42:45] moment with the younger generation. But this idea that you can become [00:42:50] whoever you want to.

Payman Langroudi: Be and do. Kind of.

Ashley King: Yeah. And be proud of what you’ve accomplished. [00:42:55] I think it’s a little more toned back here. Like people [00:43:00] are afraid to talk about their successes or even [00:43:05] dream really big and do that out loud. You’ll be judged.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:43:10] think you’re right. If you if in the UK, if you say, I’ve got an idea, loads of people will tell you why [00:43:15] it’s not possible. Right. And I’ve noticed in America it’s the opposite. I mean, people were [00:43:20] saying why not.

Ashley King: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s for real.

Sophie Lovett: It’s the complementing as well, like [00:43:25] self complementing. If somebody said that they were the best at something, I’d say actually this person [00:43:30] said that they were the best at something the other day. Whereas I actually think it’s really good to celebrate your [00:43:35] successes. Um, but I think we’re trying to learn that as Brits. [00:43:40] But it’s slow, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my, my business partner moved to Dubai, so [00:43:45] it’s just so.

Sophie Lovett: They could complement themselves.

Payman Langroudi: Within, within three months of being there. [00:43:50] He’s got people helping him in ways he’s never had here.

Sophie Lovett: Wow.

Ashley King: That’s that’s another really great point. [00:43:55] Every all of my early success in my career, which has brought me here, has been because [00:44:00] people I met, people that wanted to help me. Yeah, yeah. And so, for example, when I started at [00:44:05] Voco, the reason I got that job is because I was in Houston for on [00:44:10] a work trip. I went to a gym that I booked on ClassPass, and this girl in the class started [00:44:15] talking to me who worked at Voco. She ended up getting me hired there. Wow. And it, it [00:44:20] was just because we had a conversation and then we became friends. And I don’t think [00:44:25] we do that as much here. People don’t talk to each other and they’re not looking for friends. Like, we have [00:44:30] golden retriever energy in the US where it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a question on that sometimes in America, I’ve sat [00:44:35] on a plane and the guy sitting next to me straight away. How are you doing? Yeah. And sometimes we have [00:44:40] a nine hour flight and we talk for the whole nine hour flight.

Ashley King: This happened to me the other day, but it can be annoying. [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: At the end of that nine hour.

Ashley King: Flight.

Payman Langroudi: I thought, I thought I’ve really connected to someone. You know, like [00:44:50] this is going to be a friend for life or something. Because we spoke for all that time. We got we got to where [00:44:55] we were getting to and he was like, okay, see you later. Bye. Yeah. And if.

Sophie Lovett: I transient.

Payman Langroudi: If I, yeah, [00:45:00] if I’d had a conversation like that in the UK that I’d be like in touch with that person. [00:45:05] Yeah. And it made me realise, yeah, that you guys get into things much more quickly, [00:45:10] but maybe like getting very close takes a long time. Whereas [00:45:15] here you can sometimes sometimes you meet someone and you just straight away, straight away, you know, like that person’s [00:45:20] like someone you’re going to, you’re going to be knowing for a long time and you can get very close quicker, [00:45:25] very close quicker. But you’re right, people don’t talk. People don’t [00:45:30] talk.

Sophie Lovett: Say Ashley’s really quite European in that sense. Ashley herself. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:35] I would hope so. As in you, you. And it’s, um, um, [00:45:40] it’s like your love and respect is earned over [00:45:45] time, and I find that much more valuable in terms of you’re always super polite and warm and everything, but [00:45:50] you’re not, you’re not that kind of golden retriever, which is, uh, hey, hey, hey hey hey. And [00:45:55] then leave it, you know, it’s you really do build those relationships. And, um, [00:46:00] I’m an introvert. I’ll see you was asking me about it. He’s he’s from France, but he lives in LA, [00:46:05] so I’m not going to do the accent because, you know, sort of thinks [00:46:10] a Parisian surfer. Um, but he was saying, you know, how do Ashley and [00:46:15] Sarah create these relationships in Europe? Europeans don’t love Americans [00:46:20] and said, it’s not about loving Americans. It’s about the individual. And actually, [00:46:25] you know, Ashley can speak to anybody.

Payman Langroudi: I think British people do love Americans, though, over here.

Ashley King: More than I [00:46:30] thought.

Payman Langroudi: I was here.

Ashley King: I thought I was going to be a cringe, you know, a person. But it [00:46:35] turns out it’s not too bad.

Sophie Lovett: It’s all these airport. That’s an airport accent that you’ve cultivated. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean London, everyone’s a foreigner, right? It’s hard to find a Brit in [00:46:45] London. Honestly, what’s the worst thing about being in Benidorm? [00:46:50]

Ashley King: The worst thing.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst? What would you say, Sophie.

Sophie Lovett: About living in the UK?

Payman Langroudi: No, us. [00:46:55]

Sophie Lovett: What’s the worst thing about the US? Yeah.

Ashley King: I have an [00:47:00] answer. Go on. Um, like we are all. John [00:47:05] said this to me. John Schwarz, who was 13 for a bit and is a close friend, and he said, [00:47:10] um, Americans are on a lifeboat. That’s how they live their [00:47:15] lives. Like they’re on a lifeboat. So everyone, because think about it, our our [00:47:20] health care is tied to our job.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley King: We’re trying to survive. And [00:47:25] even like, you can’t just walk to the store in the US. You have to get in your car. That car is [00:47:30] costing you $400 a month, and then you have car insurance. It’s just all these extra costs. [00:47:35] And being so capitalism focussed. Yeah, I think people [00:47:40] have lost, I guess, just a little bit of authenticity [00:47:45] and like, it’s almost like touch grass a little, you know, like, but people are trying to survive so they can’t [00:47:50] touch grass. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but wouldn’t you say financially in America, people are slightly better off than here? [00:47:55] No, I don’t think here the system takes more money from them.

Ashley King: Statistically, salary wise, yes. [00:48:00] But when you add up all those extra fees and then just not even being able to walk to the [00:48:05] supermarket, you know, it’s we don’t have and we don’t prioritise relationships. [00:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think what annoys me about America. Yeah. That it’s only about [00:48:15] the money.

Ashley King: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a good thing in a way. Right. Because here there are places it doesn’t matter how much money [00:48:20] you’ve got, you’re not getting in.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. We’re about snob long term snobbery. And there’s.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:48:25] jobs. Yeah. There’s jobs. Yeah. It’s not about like the money. It’s about who [00:48:30] you are, who, you know, like, whereas in the US at least, you know what it’s about. It’s about money. Yeah. So that’s, [00:48:35] that’s a good thing. You can, you can put it down.

Ashley King: More surface level, like easy to expose.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, [00:48:40] but once I was, I was skiing in America and I lost my goggles or something. So [00:48:45] I went to look for some more and I tried a few on. And the service is great isn’t it? They get, [00:48:50] they get giving me them and taking them out. Try them on. And then I came to pay for it and I looked, I couldn’t find [00:48:55] my wallet. Yeah. I said, oh, I’m so sorry. I left my wallet. And the way she turned on me, man, [00:49:00] she turned on me, man. And you know, then you realise it’s only about [00:49:05] the money. Like the bartenders, this amazing guy. As long as you’re ordering more drinks and and giving him tips. Yeah, [00:49:10] the moment you’re not that guy, who’s the other guy?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Then you get.

Ashley King: Good.

Speaker 6: Service too. [00:49:15] So it’s like, it’s good.

Sophie Lovett: You know, and this is exactly it’s all about this balance. But I [00:49:20] think you were asking what I personally think is the worst thing about the US. And [00:49:25] I, I mean, I go to the US most years. I love the place, the geography, the people. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: Where’s your favourite.

Sophie Lovett: Place? Charleston in South Carolina. Absolutely love.

Payman Langroudi: It. Her [00:49:35] hometown.

Sophie Lovett: Uh, you’re from North Carolina. Charlotte, right.

Ashley King: But very close to. I grew up going there. [00:49:40] It’s a beautiful.

Sophie Lovett: City. Just stunning.

Ashley King: One of the only cities where we haven’t knocked down all the old buildings [00:49:45] and replace them with, like, cardboard apartment buildings.

Sophie Lovett: So it’s really pretty nice. [00:49:50]

Payman Langroudi: Why have you been there?

Sophie Lovett: I’ve been all over the US. Um, it’s just, I [00:49:55] don’t know, just. I’ve been there twice, actually. Normally don’t go back to the same place, but it’s just somewhere that really drew. [00:50:00] I don’t know, I was drawn to it. They call it the Europe of the South. Um, and [00:50:05] the Europe of America. But one thing that I find really confusing [00:50:10] is the lobby groups. So if if something is bad for you, you know, [00:50:15] I don’t know, antibiotics in pork or um, OxyContin, [00:50:20] um, or guns, you can have these big kind of short [00:50:25] termist groups that will lobby for something that is just [00:50:30] for, you know, to commercially help themselves. I’m not against, you [00:50:35] know, making a buck at all. But I think, you know, you’ve also got to [00:50:40] think about what’s the next generation, how’s this going to impact? And I do think that.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:50:45] politics is more corrupt.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s just intrinsic. You know, that’s not going to change [00:50:50] about now. But yeah.

Ashley King: This is a bigger picture [00:50:55] of what we were talking about with, you know, private versus public health care. Yeah. When [00:51:00] you’re a politician, you’re supposed to be a public servant. It’s the same as if you’re providing health care. We [00:51:05] have privatised these things and made them about money. And that is why, [00:51:10] I mean, it’s kind of all crumbling down in a way if you if you look at it.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:51:15] yeah, you look at Europe though, and you know, I’m bashing this, but I’m also, you know, you look at Europe and the UK and I [00:51:20] don’t think that we’re productive anymore. I think we’ve got a little bit lazy. So there has to be [00:51:25] I think there’s we’ve just become so polarised in terms of this almost Marxist [00:51:30] communist, a super high capital. You know, there’s where is the middle ground [00:51:35] of let’s be able, let’s enable people to make money, but also let’s [00:51:40] be altruistic. And, you know, let’s have a rising tide.

Payman Langroudi: The middle is not holding. You [00:51:45] know, that’s the thing. We’re not in that era of the middle. No, we are in the polarised era. [00:51:50]

Sophie Lovett: When was the era New Labour?

Payman Langroudi: Blair.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I saw a video about.

Ashley King: This actually on [00:51:55] Instagram today and it was talking about how in Manchester the [00:52:00] there was a seat. I’m sorry, I don’t know much about politics here. I just try to stay out of politics [00:52:05] in general, which is very privileged. But anyway, um they had, they were very concerned that [00:52:10] this Labour seat was going to go to the other side. And then in terms what [00:52:15] ended up happening is it went to the Green Party and their thing was you need to be ultra left [00:52:20] in order to like, even out the right.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Ashley King: And I think this is why Kamala [00:52:25] lost in the US to Trump because she was almost too centrist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although they [00:52:30] put her on a bit late, didn’t they? That was that was the thing.

Ashley King: Well that didn’t that didn’t help. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but you know, [00:52:35] this question of like the centre. The middle. Yeah. Um you almost what you’re [00:52:40] saying is you have to be a populist, you have to come out with populism, whether [00:52:45] you’re right wing or left wing.

Sophie Lovett: What do you go back. It’s like moving bees. You can’t just move them a little bit. You’ve got to move them [00:52:50] a lot to get them back to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like the pendulum swings too far [00:52:55] in both directions.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a shame that we’ve allowed the pendulum to shift. I mean, [00:53:00] I just I’m.

Ashley King: It’s the horseshoe theory. Have you heard of that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Speaker 6: Go on.

Ashley King: It’s like what [00:53:05] you know, this is the the left. And then you’ve become so right that you’re.

Speaker 6: Actually on the other [00:53:10] side of the horseshoe.

Payman Langroudi: Like a Nazi is closer to the communist than he is.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But one [00:53:15] thing I’ve noticed though, whenever I’m with Ashley, people always ask about politics. Go straight into it. [00:53:20] It’s just kind of the default at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Of Trump and all.

Sophie Lovett: That.

Ashley King: I feel like I’m on an apology tour for my country. [00:53:25] Like, I’m just like, I’m sorry about. I’m sorry about what my president tweeted on Easter. [00:53:30] Like, I do not ascribe to that. You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You said you’re not political, but how do you feel [00:53:35] about the Republicans like representing the worker nowadays? [00:53:40] I mean, it’s a weird thing, isn’t it? Like we’ve got a similar situation. Like, you [00:53:45] know, Labour were for the workers, conservatives for the for the, you know, the owners call [00:53:50] it. Yeah. But in America, it’s kind of switched around. Whereas, yeah, before [00:53:55] the Democrats were for the workers and the Republicans were for the money people. Now it’s kind of switched [00:54:00] around. The Democrats are more part of the elite now.

Sophie Lovett: And no, I do.

Ashley King: I think it’s actually [00:54:05] if you look at the policies, for example, the tax cuts that Trump did, [00:54:10] it benefited billionaires more than it did the average person. So I [00:54:15] think we I think Republicans, they cosplay as helping [00:54:20] the average person. But if you look at people who switched.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t generally switch. People [00:54:25] generally are either.

Ashley King: I would say I switched.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Ashley King: Switched. I grew up very Christian, conservative. [00:54:30] And, you know, my family was like pretty, [00:54:35] not blue collar, but I mean, my grandpa grandpas were both trained engineers.

Sophie Lovett: And your me. [00:54:40]

Ashley King: Me, me malls were stay at home moms, you know what I mean? So like, we’re from West Virginia, [00:54:45] you know, pretty, pretty Republican. But no, I and I’ve seen even my family, [00:54:50] they’ve become more centrist even. So, yeah, maybe not even [00:54:55] centrist. I think people in the US are like almost looking for like, you’re lucky here. You don’t have [00:55:00] the two party system. We’re stuck with two parties, and a lot of people find they don’t [00:55:05] identify with either. That’s how I would describe myself.

Sophie Lovett: Do you not say that we’ve predominantly had a two party, [00:55:10] certainly in my lifetime these days.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s looking like more coalitions. I mean, for the next [00:55:15] election you had the Greens like, like Labour’s losing to the Greens on one side and to reform on the other [00:55:20] side, and it probably will end up being some sort of coalition.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: This is good though. You [00:55:25] need to have options. We were we weren’t designed as a country to be a two party system. But I think it’s really [00:55:30] messing us up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think Rory Stewart calls for kind of like government jury duty, [00:55:35] doesn’t he? Where it should just be. Everyone does it for a year. And then [00:55:40] back to I.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s going to be AI in the end. Yeah. Ai.

Sophie Lovett: I don’t understand why. It’s why [00:55:45] things aren’t gone. I feel like our current government, [00:55:50] I just wish they would have put it through AI. You know, some of the I.

Ashley King: Will say, I know we’re [00:55:55] using it in war and it’s made some mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. [00:56:00]

Ashley King: So I think once again, it’s like using AI on an X-ray. You want to make sure you’re.

Payman Langroudi: How are. [00:56:05]

Ashley King: You using.

Payman Langroudi: Ai in your work outside of Pearl itself being an AI.

Ashley King: System? Oh, man.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:56:10] you into Claude?

Ashley King: Oh, I am into what I call her Claudia. Because I’m like a man would [00:56:15] never be this helpful. So it’s a woman. Um, but yes. Claude [00:56:20] Cowork, um, I think I was messaging one of my colleagues. I spent £60 [00:56:25] this month so far on extra tokens because I keep running out of usage. [00:56:30] Wow. Um, it’s worth it though. Time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you doing with it?

Ashley King: Okay, so, um, [00:56:35] we’re very fortunate at Pearl, by the way, to be able to be pretty [00:56:40] open with the AI systems we use.

Sophie Lovett: They really encourage it.

Ashley King: So many of my friends who I’m [00:56:45] like, are you using Claude Cowork? Like, I’m like a Claude evangelist, I should get a referral [00:56:50] code or something. But, um, what I do is I connect my gmail, [00:56:55] my notion, my meeting recording notes, my Slack, all of these different [00:57:00] entities that I’m working on into it. And then I use it to.

Payman Langroudi: Run [00:57:05] your whole life.

Ashley King: Run my entire life. Yeah. Like every morning it runs through my emails and tells [00:57:10] me which ones I should respond to automatically types out a draft in my like vocal. [00:57:15] How I would type my voice.

Payman Langroudi: Voice?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, and this is just, this is surface [00:57:20] level stuff. But if you look at my Instagram algorithm, you were talking about the discover page earlier. It’s all about [00:57:25] clouds. That’s how I learn my scroll time is just flawed.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s we were [00:57:30] talking about this the other day and somebody described you absolutely beautifully, didn’t they? They said your toxic [00:57:35] productivity, um, Ashley is basically productive. So [00:57:40] we were talking about, although you’ve got all these automations, it’s [00:57:45] still not saving you time because you’re actually surfacing other things and newer things. So even [00:57:50] though you are productive in that you’re because you are now so productive, [00:57:55] you’re being asked to do more things. And so.

Ashley King: This is working at a Start-Up and you know.

Sophie Lovett: Exactly, [00:58:00] I think.

Ashley King: The, the, if I was working at an average job, corporate [00:58:05] especially, and, or even being a dentist, like the How I think about AI [00:58:10] for everyone is it’s going to do the stuff that you don’t want to do. [00:58:15] Sending emails. No one likes to check their emails. You know, all these things to allow you to do [00:58:20] actual meaningful work and also to do things like this. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: Have conversations. [00:58:25]

Ashley King: Conversations with humans.

Payman Langroudi: And what we were talking about yesterday, we had a meeting and, uh, [00:58:30] I was discussing with my partner, there’s a few people in our organisation who’ve taken it on like [00:58:35] fully and a few who haven’t. And you can see the [00:58:40] ones who’ve taken it on are accelerating. Yeah. I mean, beyond anything, I [00:58:45] mean, we’ve got one, one girl who works for us who she’s started. She knows [00:58:50] more about toothpaste than I do, like in a, in a period of three months. Yeah. [00:58:55] We had a meeting with this chemist. Yeah. Like, and I was just [00:59:00] watching her talking to this chemist like three months ago. She had nothing to do with [00:59:05] toothpaste. Yeah. Wow. But she’s the type of person who will just dive into something, isn’t it? Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think you have to be curious. And do you know what I, I [00:59:15] feel really lucky that we, I don’t feel that we worry about our [00:59:20] jobs because we’re looking at ways of adopting AI ourselves and working with it and, [00:59:25] you know, finding other other things to do to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you mean you mean you’re not going to get replaced by AI?

Sophie Lovett: I [00:59:30] personally well, hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: Not, not yet.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, there are you were mentioning, you know, it [00:59:35] can do emails and stuff. So I can see it being a huge worry for people. You know, if I was just doing data entry, [00:59:40] for example. Yeah. And things that. But, um, what I would like to stress [00:59:45] though, you know, not just with Pearl AI, but all these other LLMs, the large language [00:59:50] models, other AI’s is that we, we who use [00:59:55] it don’t ostracise others by making it sound too complicated because they, [01:00:00] they, anyone can use it. But I think people feel really, really shy [01:00:05] and nervous about using it because they just haven’t dipped their toe in the water yet. And people are almost creating [01:00:10] language that is a barrier to other people who haven’t yet dipped their toes in the water. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s serving us. It’s we’re serving it.

Sophie Lovett: So then that’s what you’re saying. You know, almost 50% of your [01:00:20] staff are 50% aren’t. You know, it shouldn’t be that way. You know, people should all be trying it. [01:00:25] Um, and, you know, if I could explain how to use it really, [01:00:30] really simply, it is, don’t use it as a way of googling something. You know, [01:00:35] what you put in is what you’ll get out. So you can, if you are super smart and you can do the essays [01:00:40] like you did at university, it will just help enhance that. But you still have to have the smarts to [01:00:45] put in to get the smarts out.

Ashley King: It’s a mirror. Just anything in life is a mirror. Let me tell you where I’m [01:00:50] concerned about. You know, the the people that are and aren’t using AI. I’m [01:00:55] worried about women because there’s a I saw a stat and it was like, [01:01:00] I think 50% less women are using AI tools [01:01:05] than men, right? And let me tell you why.

Sophie Lovett: That’s really interesting.

Ashley King: There’s this whole [01:01:10] one big reason. There’s a whole debate around the ethics of AI. [01:01:15] The amount of energy that it consumes, you know, and this is. Yeah, exactly. People [01:01:20] are also just worried that it’s going to take us away from the human element that we’ve spoken about. Very valid. [01:01:25] Any new technology that happens, we have fears, but I think women [01:01:30] tend to be more empathetic to that. And if you even [01:01:35] look at the jobs that women have, we’re more likely to be nurses, teachers, whatever. Whether that’s socially [01:01:40] programmed or inherent, that’s another topic. But because of that, a lot of [01:01:45] women, because of ethics are not using AI.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [01:01:50] worried about the planet, the environmental planet.

Ashley King: Also, just the fact that, you know, [01:01:55] robots take over, especially.

Payman Langroudi: Women are like slower adopters than men on tech tech. [01:02:00]

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s this boys club again, though, you know, it’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Ring.

Sophie Lovett: Fencing. Men are ring fencing. Things to [01:02:05] be like, oh, don’t worry, don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Look at it. Men haven’t done it. They like. Eyes moved so quickly. There’s a man telling you [01:02:10] not to go on.

Sophie Lovett: No, but I think, again, it’s this kind of ostracising by language, but also by, you know, [01:02:15] you know, don’t worry about looking at that. Don’t worry about it.

Ashley King: It was created by men as well. All most LMS are [01:02:20] were trained by men like the programmers were men, probably 80% of them. [01:02:25] And now men are using it and women are like, I’m worried that we’re being left behind and we’re going to regret.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:02:30] on to the whole women, women in the workplace kind of subject. Yeah. Now let’s talk about [01:02:35] that. Let’s do that outside of AI. Leave AI to one side.

Sophie Lovett: We just talk about how our [01:02:40] team is just formed of the most indomitable women. Yeah we [01:02:45] are.

Payman Langroudi: We’re on purpose or by mistake.

Sophie Lovett: Um, I think it’s [01:02:50] by purpose that we’re all. I really think it.

Ashley King: Might partially be on purpose, even from some of our leaders [01:02:55] who have made hires. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve spoken to a fear about it. He’s like, I the [01:03:00] all the women that I’ve hired, they are the hardest workers. Yeah, they’re they get [01:03:05] things done. They don’t look at things surface level. They look at the entire picture and. [01:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: They say, okay, let me give you an example of what could be holding women back [01:03:15] in the workplace. And actually it’s for me, it’s like a double edged thing because I’ve [01:03:20] noticed not all women, but quite a lot of women. Yeah. Don’t [01:03:25] ever ask for a pay rise. They they wait, they wait. Not, not [01:03:30] you too. Obviously. They.

Sophie Lovett: Actually tell us what you got told [01:03:35] off for us.

Payman Langroudi: Let me give you some of my favourite employees. The [01:03:40] type of person who doesn’t ask.

Ashley King: You’re absolutely right. By the way, one of those essays I wrote.

Sophie Lovett: No [01:03:45] no no.

Payman Langroudi: No no, I’m telling you, they, they suffer by not asking.

Sophie Lovett: Totally because.

Payman Langroudi: There’s other people who [01:03:50] push hard. And in the end, you just don’t want to lose that person. So you give them more. Yeah. [01:03:55] And it’s it’s as I think it’s a female thing. Yeah, that too many women, you [01:04:00] know, maybe. Maybe it’s a man problem being over aggressive. Yeah, but too many [01:04:05] women wait to be asked or wait, you know, they don’t they don’t put their hand up.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So for [01:04:10] me personally, I feel like everything had to be the right environment for me [01:04:15] to ask it. And I kept thinking about all the things that I was doing wrong that didn’t warrant it. Whereas [01:04:20] I think that sometimes men can just use a lack of critical thinking to go [01:04:25] in there and just be like me, one nasty, almost caveman like.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like a man who doesn’t [01:04:30] deserve it will last. But a woman who does deserve it won’t ask.

Sophie Lovett: And I think that sometimes [01:04:35] women also wait for times. We’re always like, [01:04:40] the diet will start on Monday, or we’re going to ask for it next quarter, or we’re going to ask [01:04:45] it in January when I know somebody else was. And I think that sometimes we almost adhere ourselves [01:04:50] too much to these timelines, whereas men I don’t know whether it’s because they don’t have kind of [01:04:55] lunar cycles are just like, now is fine, now is fine. So, [01:05:00] um, I, yeah, like I said, I, you know, I was joking about it, but Ashley and I have been [01:05:05] through this recently and I’m sorry, but it’s going to happen again in a couple of weeks because we really [01:05:10] want to buck that trend. And I think there are ways in which we can enable women [01:05:15] to do these things, but it does start with ourselves that we have to ask more because when you ask, [01:05:20] you get.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time, I don’t really believe in a gender pay gap.

Sophie Lovett: Um, [01:05:25] tell me more.

Ashley King: Okay, so one of those ten 000 word essays I wrote was [01:05:30] on the gender.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve looked into this.

Sophie Lovett: Um, ding ding ding.

Ashley King: Yeah. So, and [01:05:35] I didn’t write it with ChatGPT. So I actually remember when I wrote this was like ten [01:05:40] years ago, but you’re right in your theory, in terms of your theory of women do not ask [01:05:45] for raises as much as men. And, um, however, while that’s a big piece [01:05:50] and I’ve seen it even with my friends who I speak to, um, that don’t work at Pearl. [01:05:55] They’re they’re just very afraid. We’re we’re less risk averse in general. [01:06:00] That comes with socialisation as well. But if you do look at women [01:06:05] who have been successful and the higher the role of a woman. [01:06:10] So say I’m a CEO, you’re a CEO, the pay gap increases. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sophie Lovett: So there’s not as many female CEOs [01:06:20] in the same industry.

Ashley King: Correct. And so if we’re a CEO in the same industry, [01:06:25] like let’s say you’re working for a competitor, um, you’re [01:06:30] probably making $0.40 on the dollar more than me versus [01:06:35] 20.

Payman Langroudi: But then don’t you think if that was the case, I would only hire women, [01:06:40] wouldn’t I? Because women are cheaper.

Ashley King: Maybe that’s why we have so many.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But then okay, so you’ve got a woman [01:06:45] sitting in front of you. She’s great, but she’s just got married and she’s 31. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: What do you what’s next.

Sophie Lovett: In your mind? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going you’re right. It’s [01:06:55] going through my head. It’s going through.

Sophie Lovett: What’s going through your head.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have maternity soon.

Sophie Lovett: So why [01:07:00] don’t you just have a whole host of women, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Well [01:07:05] we do. We’ve got more women than men, right?

Sophie Lovett: Um, but so I was being facetious there. Right. [01:07:10] You know, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Just if I’m honest in that situation, I’m thinking she’s going to be off soon. Maybe [01:07:15] for, for childcare. Yeah. That’s right. Now the reason for the pay gap is the childcare. [01:07:20] Yeah. Like that’s, you know.

Ashley King: Part of it.

Payman Langroudi: If your career gets cut by four years. That’s [01:07:25] absolutely part of it. You’re going to be behind. I think there’s not because you’re a woman. I think it’s twofold.

Ashley King: I [01:07:30] think it’s twofold. So you have we’re less likely to ask. [01:07:35] You have also maternity leave, things like that. Yeah. There is an inherent [01:07:40] bias that we all carry for whether it’s internal misogyny, like racism, [01:07:45] whatever bias we have, stereotypes that we hold, we might not even realise it. And I do think [01:07:50] I’ve experienced this, which I try to just not acknowledge it in my head because I think [01:07:55] your thoughts create your reality. So like, let’s not focus on this, but if I go to [01:08:00] my boss and ask for a raise every couple of months because my title keeps changing, [01:08:05] versus if a man who did the same thing did it, she’s also a woman. She might [01:08:10] not realise it, but it might piss her off that I did it versus him.

Speaker 7: Do you think [01:08:15] I mean.

Ashley King: Do you think people hold inherent biases?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:20] Well, then should we take it to the other side then? Let’s go. Surely [01:08:25] there’s some advantage to being a woman selling to some man.

Sophie Lovett: I’ll tell you what. I never used to think of any advantages [01:08:30] of being a woman. And now I see it all the time. I really do. I think that, um, [01:08:35] I think the the women are talking, you know, we are grouping together. Now. I [01:08:40] am talking more and more to my friends about, okay, where’s the best savings account? [01:08:45] How are we going to invest? You know? The conversations are really, really shifting. We’re talking [01:08:50] to each other about how, you know, you need to go in that room and ask for a pay rise. I [01:08:55] think the conversations are really shifting and shifting away from just [01:09:00] using the kind of preconceived notions of femininity, [01:09:05] but now using looking at femininity as more power. And [01:09:10] yeah, I think also women have always talked more. [01:09:15] And I think that makes us incredibly lucky. And we’ve got an advantage over men because [01:09:20] you just don’t open up, as you know, and being you know what’s interesting?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been in some [01:09:25] I mean, maybe a few years ago, some like a boardroom in the US where there’s a woman [01:09:30] executive. Yeah. And she’s being incredibly aggressive and acting like a man. Yeah. [01:09:35] And I think this, this is the shift that we really need to see, that you don’t want to act [01:09:40] like an aggressive man. Yeah. As a woman, that’s that’s the.

Sophie Lovett: Worst shift, haven’t we, from that like, oh, [01:09:45] you’ve got to be a man. And to know we’ve now found our new thing. We’re not giving you [01:09:50] the secret, though, because I.

Ashley King: Think it goes back to have you. Have you [01:09:55] guys seen the Barbie movie? There’s that whole speech that. What is it, Cameron? I forget [01:10:00] her name, but she gives. She’s like, you have to be aggressive, but you can’t be too aggressive. You have to be [01:10:05] beautiful, but you can’t be too beautiful. It’s like all these things where it’s like, you [01:10:10] know, this is the way I think about life in general. We are all dealt a hand of cards. [01:10:15] Play your cards right. Don’t worry about what was dealt to you. It’s in your hand. Play [01:10:20] it like I could sit around and focus on. Does this person have an inherent bias? And is that [01:10:25] why they’re not giving me a raise? But that’s a waste of time. What hand have I been dealt [01:10:30] and how can I play it to the best of my ability? Um, I think I would. I’m [01:10:35] so glad that I’m a woman right now. I look at my mom and my grandma. They did not have the same opportunities as me [01:10:40] and.

Payman Langroudi: The shift then, I mean, you two are earning well, you’re, you know, [01:10:45] powerful businesswomen, right? The shift in society in that you no longer need [01:10:50] a man to look after you. Yeah. Like the, the classical old, like [01:10:55] the way your mom and grandma had to, like, get security from a marriage.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. I always had. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: To.

Sophie Lovett: Come out to my parents.

Payman Langroudi: To relationships then.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Women expect men to have empathy [01:11:05] now. Oh, really? Basic empathy is required.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: I think whereas before, [01:11:10] if you were providing financially, that was enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I almost had to [01:11:15] kind of come out to my parents that I’m not going to get married and have children. And they [01:11:20] were really upset because I’ve got four brothers.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the only girl.

Sophie Lovett: I’m the only girl. And I [01:11:25] said to them, I then kind of framed it in a different way, um, and said, you know, [01:11:30] what do you want for me in general? And they said, we want you to be happy. And I said, this is what makes me happiest. [01:11:35] You know, the, you know, and I’m not a kind of I don’t think I’m doing it in [01:11:40] a masculine way, but I’m Working really, really hard and not saying that [01:11:45] that’s because I’m not with somebody and because I don’t have children, but I just really enjoy [01:11:50] this, this phase of my life. I really, really like it.

Payman Langroudi: But you never know because, I mean, I’ve [01:11:55] heard that so many times. And then the person’s got three kids.

Ashley King: You never know.

Sophie Lovett: I’m too old [01:12:00] for that now anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: No you’re not. What was it like? Cameron Diaz [01:12:05] had a baby at, like, 50 or something. Yeah, you never know.

Sophie Lovett: No. Thank you. I appreciate the.

Payman Langroudi: Reflections. I mean, [01:12:10] the difference does that in in dating, in marriage and all that. The [01:12:15] fact that you’re powerful, you’re self-reliant. Has that changed? Has that changed your relationship [01:12:20] with men?

Ashley King: I think for the better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Yeah. [01:12:25] I would say even just in the last year, I, I recently became single [01:12:30] at the end of last year and I was in a really long relationship before that. So [01:12:35] before and after I went from being pretty like low level, you know, trying to get by [01:12:40] to, you know, succeeding fairly well. I shouldn’t say that to British people. Sorry, we’re not [01:12:45] allowed to say that.

Sophie Lovett: I think I’m doing okay. I think because.

Ashley King: You’re approaching it, you’re [01:12:50] approaching dating when you’re in a circumstance like us is like, it’s just extra. [01:12:55] It’s it’s something to add. I’m a fully formed person. I expect you to be the same. Um, [01:13:00] it’s like I saw this thing and it said one plus one doesn’t equal two in a relationship. It equals 11. [01:13:05] The idea is that you’re both fully formed people. You come together and then the [01:13:10] your output is exponential.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Ashley King: That’s how I see it. So not having like [01:13:15] the scarcity like mentality around it is nice, but then no one has to give you.

Payman Langroudi: Anything like marriage [01:13:20] no longer as important as it was.

Sophie Lovett: I mean, for me, no, I mean, just I really [01:13:25] like my own space. I like coming home. I like looking after myself. I like doing, I it’s all about timing for me. [01:13:30] I want to do what I want to do on my own timing. And I know that that sounds and is [01:13:35] inherently selfish. But the choice for me is I want to do what I want to do [01:13:40] with my time.

Ashley King: I think it’d be selfish if you weren’t building and doing cool things that are ultimately [01:13:45] helping society, but.

Sophie Lovett: You will never know what it’s like to be a parent. And the [01:13:50] the real selflessness that goes into that.

Ashley King: I think I hot take this is contrarian. [01:13:55] Someone said this the other day, actually, it was a few months ago, but he was like, oh yeah, [01:14:00] I’m not I’m not having kids yet. I’m still being selfish. I actually think in a way, having kids [01:14:05] is selfish. And the reason I say that is twofold. Obviously, the fact [01:14:10] that we just already have so many people on this planet, like 8 billion people, that’s insane. [01:14:15] Do we need more people? You know, and we have limited resources on this planet. So [01:14:20] I think that’s a little selfish. But also, I think so many people have [01:14:25] kids because they’re looking for their children to provide them with a purpose. And it’s the default way to do that. It’s a very [01:14:30] easy way to find your purpose. And I think it can be a bit of a lazy way to find your purpose. This [01:14:35] is another thing.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t want kids. Why are you not sure?

Ashley King: I’m not sure.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:14:40] don’t think either of us have written it off entirely. But at the moment, I think we’re kind of living for the moment. [01:14:45] I. I had this date once, and I didn’t. I don’t [01:14:50] know what happened, but the guy said to me, I have a real fetish of powerful women. I [01:14:55] was like, what? When did that become a thing?

Ashley King: Was this the guy that worked at, like, Jiffy [01:15:00] Lube? Sorry, that’s not like it’s like a.

Sophie Lovett: It was a nice guy, but [01:15:05] it was like, when did this become a fetish? And also, you know, I don’t know why I’m doing to come [01:15:10] across as this kind of powerhouse. It’s strange. It’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:15:15] it put you off?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I find it really strange. I found [01:15:20] it quite. Do you think you.

Ashley King: Come off as, like, masculine and powerful when you’re dating?

Sophie Lovett: No, but a bit. Maybe [01:15:25] a bit. Kind of. I if if something if somebody. I don’t like dilly dallying. Right. [01:15:30] So if it comes to the bill and somebody’s dilly dallying, I’ll just pay it.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. No. Not [01:15:35] me. See, I’m. I’m the opposite in dating than I am at work. Like I’m at work. I’m [01:15:40] masculine. I’m getting shit done. When I’m dating. I’m like a totally different [01:15:45] person.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s interesting.

Ashley King: Yeah. I step into my feminine energy because [01:15:50] I’m, you know, I’m a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Is that because you think guys like to kind of look [01:15:55] at you feel that they want to look after somebody?

Ashley King: Um, like I [01:16:00] don’t, I don’t necessarily, I don’t know, I think it’s like our masculine [01:16:05] and feminine energy complement each other, obviously. And there are some relationships [01:16:10] where the woman is more masculine, the man is more feminine, and it’s even and personally, [01:16:15] like we’re always, everyone has masculine and feminine energy, even boys. And for [01:16:20] me though, I just like feel most relaxed when I’m in my feminine [01:16:25] more leaning toward my feminine energy. And I want a man to pay and plan. Okay, [01:16:30] then I’m there.

Payman Langroudi: Controversial, controversial question. Then I look at my friend group [01:16:35] here and out of the people I know, there’s maybe four couples [01:16:40] where the woman’s clearly out earning the man. Yeah. And [01:16:45] I used to think, why not? Yeah. I think what’s what’s wrong with that? You know, [01:16:50] completely like egalitarian, sort of progressive kind of view on it. But when I [01:16:55] look at those four relationships, only one of them’s really worked. Yeah. And that one, her [01:17:00] father had 100 million. You know, there was no way this.

Ashley King: What do you think the difference is between [01:17:05] them?

Payman Langroudi: So this is the thing. I think it’s a little bit for a man emasculating. It’s a little bit like for [01:17:10] a man, let’s say you have an argument, a guy and a girl and the woman is [01:17:15] earning more than the man. Yeah. In that argument, if money comes up, which often, [01:17:20] often money is a cause of friction, right? If money comes up in that argument, [01:17:25] a man to be told he’s not earning his keep is a [01:17:30] much bigger insult than for a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so, so, so it [01:17:35] and a lot of women are aware of the size of that insult to a man. Like for a man, it’s [01:17:40] a big deal not being able to provide.

Ashley King: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because of programming. Yeah. But but yeah, but [01:17:45] also because of maybe the way we are chemically. Right. And like the way you switch in, in your dating [01:17:50] to this feminine thing because you are this feminine thing. Yeah. That’s real. Yeah. Maybe you’re switching at [01:17:55] work to this masculine thing. You know, the real you is the, the date you, you know, for whatever. [01:18:00] I mean, not.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And those relationships just aren’t right. You know, if the man is feeling inferior, [01:18:05] if the woman is feeling like she needs.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about dating or marrying someone [01:18:10] who earns less than you? And by the way, it’s a huge industry. It’s a huge.

Sophie Lovett: Industry like ambition. [01:18:15] And I like lack of laziness and I like drive. And I think that if you’re striving towards [01:18:20] something, often that yearning towards something is then [01:18:25] shown as earning. So I think it’s about a drive and an and energy.

Payman Langroudi: But not always. [01:18:30]

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, but it’s not. And you know, you can have people who start businesses. But I just think that, um, I [01:18:35] just really.

Ashley King: Wanted to the you’re worried about the person’s values versus their income.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [01:18:40] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So let’s say you get together with someone and you earn twice what he [01:18:45] earns, and then you’re buying a house or something and you’re paying twice as much for this house.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Well, I [01:18:50] pay for everything anyway. And secondly, I’m always going to live alone and not with anyone. So it just doesn’t it just [01:18:55] doesn’t bother me. I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: Any rule on this. Do you find it, like, problematic [01:19:00] if you’re dating someone who earns less than you?

Sophie Lovett: I mean, I find it.

Ashley King: It’s probably I [01:19:05] would say that it’s statistically likely that someone would [01:19:10] earn less. I think it’s like 80% of people in the UK, like make less than 60 K [01:19:15] or something or 40 K.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But statistics.

Ashley King: Are statistically. Yeah. But um, [01:19:20] no, you know what, I think I agree with you, Sophie, that it’s the values that [01:19:25] matter. I want someone that’s a hard worker. But also there’s to me, you can provide [01:19:30] value outside of money and capitalism, right? Like [01:19:35] if you’re doing the little things like making sure we don’t [01:19:40] run out of milk for our tea in the morning, you know, it’s much more [01:19:45] than just a dollar amount.

Sophie Lovett: Tightness is a curse. Tightness is a curse, you know, [01:19:50] but you can.

Payman Langroudi: Overspending is a curse.

Sophie Lovett: Overspending is a curse. But you go to places that are fit [01:19:55] within what you can afford, you know, so it wouldn’t. I think the good thing about women is that we do [01:20:00] not need to be showing off all the time. As soon as a man is earning a certain amount, I actually, this [01:20:05] is the one thing that I really think has changed recently in my mind about why [01:20:10] it’s so good to be a woman is that as soon as a man starts earning more, [01:20:15] he then has to start going to the clubs that show he earns more. He has to send [01:20:20] his kids to private school to, you know, then go to the private dentist or go to the clubs [01:20:25] and have, you know, I’m a member of this. I’m a member of that. I’m wearing the.

Payman Langroudi: Woman to buy a handbag or whatever. [01:20:30]

Sophie Lovett: But they don’t have to, you know, it could be that the woman could just do much more [01:20:35] silent wealth. We don’t have to, you know, our friendship groups tend to stay the same. We actually tend to stay with. [01:20:40] And then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right in that a man’s value ends up sometimes being how much money he makes, and.

Sophie Lovett: Then.

Payman Langroudi: It can.

Sophie Lovett: Cost [01:20:45] so much more. So actually, when they sometimes when people earn more, it means it unlocks [01:20:50] different opportunities that can be much more costly [01:20:55] where. And also it’s, you know, if other men because as [01:21:00] I said, I’ve got four brothers. If other men don’t see that person spending in line with their new [01:21:05] wealth, that will be questioned, whereas women will say, well done, this is amazing, you know, [01:21:10] and then they’ll start talking about how how they can get there. I have a I had a really interesting [01:21:15] week this week already. I did, um, a specialist [01:21:20] training with two different specialist practice this week. One was all [01:21:25] female specialists and one was all male specialists. I’ve never had that before.

Payman Langroudi: All female [01:21:30] specialists.

Sophie Lovett: All female specialists. And then I like that you weren’t surprised about the all male specialists. Um, [01:21:35] but the difference in the conversation, the women were saying [01:21:40] whenever someone was asking a question, they were saying, oh yeah, I want to know that too. Can you expand on it? And it was kind [01:21:45] of like this group mentality of everyone was supporting each other. So when I did [01:21:50] the male specialist training, I don’t know how it happened like this. They were po faced. [01:21:55] They didn’t say anything. It was the hardest one. And then they just fired these questions and it was almost [01:22:00] like they were.

Ashley King: Like, gotcha questions.

Sophie Lovett: Oh yeah.

Ashley King: Rather than like curiosity.

Sophie Lovett: Competition, competition. [01:22:05] And nobody was saying, oh, I wanted to find that out too. And well done. And then in the corridor, they [01:22:10] all came up to me and they were secretly asking questions and saying how much they loved it. I [01:22:15] thought, what did you say in the South? Oh, bless your hearts. You know, it’s a shame that [01:22:20] they couldn’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: The reason I bring up this earning thing here. It’s huge in dentistry. There’s loads of [01:22:25] women are primary earner dentists that they [01:22:30] are dentists. The husband isn’t. Yeah. And dentists earn a lot. Some of them. Yeah. So there’s loads of [01:22:35] those. And there’s loads of hygienists who are the primary earner in their house. [01:22:40] And so I’d say it’s a bigger issue. I mean there are more not an issue. [01:22:45] But there’s there’s more women who are primary earners in dentistry than there [01:22:50] is out there in society. And as I say, I like [01:22:55] ultra progressive to the end. And yet now when I see these couples [01:23:00] that I’m talking about now, I’m thinking maybe.

Sophie Lovett: Don’t worry though, because the grandkids are getting married to [01:23:05] robots.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Ashley King: That’s a concern. But I [01:23:10] want to weigh in.

Sophie Lovett: Question is mu.

Ashley King: Let me tell you, like all of these all [01:23:15] these conversations we are having, I think they start off [01:23:20] as how is the patriarchy affecting women? Is what we could say, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. [01:23:25] But one thing we don’t talk about is how it’s affecting men as well. [01:23:30] So you just gave a great example, Sophie. But I also think that [01:23:35] this like, fundamental way that it’s programmed us men and women [01:23:40] hurts us. So in terms of if I’m in a relationship and I’m making more money, [01:23:45] and I’m with a man who, rather than actually being like in his true healthy masculine [01:23:50] is almost too programmed by the patriarchy to overvalue [01:23:55] the dollar amount. Yeah, yeah. Then it’s not going to go well [01:24:00] because his ego is just going to be hurt the entire time. So I think it’s the answer [01:24:05] to me is absolutely, those relationships can work, but you need someone who’s very secure in themselves [01:24:10] and isn’t ascribing to these like, ideals that are coming from these systems. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Have you been you’ve been to Holland? Yeah, I’ve.

Sophie Lovett: Been to the Netherlands.

Payman Langroudi: In in in Netherlands, you can’t hold a [01:24:20] door open for a woman. It’s a bit rude.

Sophie Lovett: I know we kept walking into.

Ashley King: The door open for everyone, but [01:24:25] for men and women.

Payman Langroudi: As a man, it’s a bit rude, you know, like the after you like it’s it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: On [01:24:30] there that that that saying go Dutch, go Dutch. Exactly.

Ashley King: I held the door open yesterday in [01:24:35] Greece for a man. He was very offended. Is that right? So you got to be careful holding [01:24:40] the door open for people, apparently.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, so we were in the Netherlands not too long ago at the Netherlands [01:24:45] Dental show.

Payman Langroudi: And I love the Dutch. They are.

Sophie Lovett: Amazing. We love it. They come [01:24:50] up to us and they say we we hate you. We hate the look of you. We don’t like this. And [01:24:55] we think, oh my God, they’re so honest. Yeah. And then they say, and you think, oh gosh, [01:25:00] what’s the point of being here? And then they say, we will buy ten of your products. It’s just [01:25:05] it’s, you know, but yeah, it’s, it’s great. The honesty. We, we like that, don’t we? But [01:25:10] yeah, and what I found even in the Netherlands is a lot of people coming up and saying, [01:25:15] and a lot of hygienists own practices out there, and they say, I’m just a hygienist. [01:25:20] So I was thinking all of this great progression that they have in the Netherlands, [01:25:25] but people are still saying, I’m just a hygienist. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a there’s [01:25:30] a hierarchy in dentistry. You know, it’s difficult, but it’s real.

Sophie Lovett: But I’m talking about [01:25:35] there were probably about seven people who said that to me. All practice owners hygiene [01:25:40] only. So it’s not. So again, one thing I’ve really, really noticed about dentistry is it’s a pyramid [01:25:45] scheme of this kind of God figure at the top. And then it’s just always this pyramid [01:25:50] scheme. But you know, when you take away the that what is perceived as the head [01:25:55] of the pyramid scheme, i.e. the dentist or the specialist dentist away from it, why should [01:26:00] anybody be just, you know, why is anyone just we’ve got some amazing hygienist therapists, you’ve got Kat [01:26:05] London therapists and stuff. I think perceptions about roles really need to change [01:26:10] as well. And I think, again, that’s a feminine thing, a feminist thing. I think that we need [01:26:15] to start really talking ourselves up and being like, we’re doing a hell of a lot more as therapists and hygienists as some [01:26:20] dentists are. But I just thought that I’m just a was really surprising, particularly [01:26:25] in the Netherlands, where.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a country like that. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, you know, my arm was hurting from having [01:26:30] to open my own doors.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to some quick fires. What [01:26:35] would you guys say is your favourite business influence? Like your, your [01:26:40] person in business that you admire the most.

Ashley King: Inside or outside of Pearl? [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Outside of Pearl?

Ashley King: I’m really into Fred Kaufman right now. Who’s [01:26:50] that? He talks about compassionate leadership.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: Not many people know [01:26:55] about him. I learned about him from the CEO of LinkedIn, Jeff Weiner. Um, [01:27:00] he has this theory that businesses [01:27:05] fail because they go down two paths, which is I’m [01:27:10] responsible for my portion. You’re responsible for yours. So it’s more of like a democratic. And [01:27:15] then like what we do individually will make the company succeed. So that’s one path. Then there’s like the [01:27:20] more communist path, which is like we all pitch in, but we all know that that model does not [01:27:25] work. Um, his thing is in order to mitigate [01:27:30] silos, but also not be too communistic, you need to have [01:27:35] compassionate leadership, which is undying support and love for the people [01:27:40] that you work with. And so it’s almost like this emotional piece fitting [01:27:45] in with the logic of business. And I just think [01:27:50] it’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting though, you said to me, I said to her fear about, um, business [01:27:55] being like a bit of a family, which is kind of what you’re alluding to. And he said, he said, [01:28:00] certainly not pro sports team, not family.

Ashley King: No, I agree with that statement. And [01:28:05] okay, let me let me put it this way. You’re a goalie. What’s your job? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Cody.

Ashley King: What’s [01:28:15] your what’s your job on the team? What’s your. Yeah, [01:28:20] but what do you do?

Sophie Lovett: I say he doesn’t like football.

Ashley King: You save goals. I don’t [01:28:25] like football either. But everyone knows what a goalie does, right? And most people’s answer [01:28:30] is block the ball from going into the goal. Right. But no, that’s not their job. Their job is to win. [01:28:35] Yeah, yeah. And so it’s this idea that people can, in a [01:28:40] company, you can become so self-focused if you don’t have support and love for the people [01:28:45] around you, you won’t be actually successful. I don’t the family thing is toxic. [01:28:50] Yeah. Like they say, you can’t fire your family. I think that’s what a fear said. Um, we’re [01:28:55] all working towards one goal together though, and it’s going to be a lot more fun. We’re going to be a lot more [01:29:00] successful if we actually like each other and support each other.

Payman Langroudi: For sure, for sure. And you’re kind of alluding to that famous [01:29:05] story about the janitor at the NASA who’s helping put the guy on the moon or whatever. Yeah. [01:29:10]

Ashley King: Same with the hygienist, right?

Sophie Lovett: Do you know what? I’m gonna be really [01:29:15] boring here, but every day I’m looking at what makes a commercial dental [01:29:20] practice or group run. And I’m not not found [01:29:25] the sweet spot yet because it’s it’s so different. But you can look at people like [01:29:30] Anushka from Dermira Dev Patel. I mean, what Fazeela has done for Coliseum. And then [01:29:35] you can look at something completely different, like Mark Allen’s impact at Bupa. [01:29:40] And I think that I know these aren’t people who’ve written well, maybe they are haven’t necessarily [01:29:45] written books, but they’ve all done something that is completely different. I mean, [01:29:50] dev looks at the US model and he’s got the kind of beauty partners model they’ve they’ve [01:29:55] just bought in Curadon. You’ve got Anushka who is just [01:30:00] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Extraordinary.

Sophie Lovett: Extraordinary in every sense in terms of how [01:30:05] she procures, how she runs her team. Everything. I mean, I [01:30:10] there must be 70 of her. I don’t know how she how she does it. And then she goes and does a marathon.

Speaker 8: Three [01:30:15] children, three children.

Sophie Lovett: Stunningly beautiful, you know. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking [01:30:20] more outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But I mean, I’m just looking at it from the commercial perspective as well, because now [01:30:25] nowadays where we’re looking to move, you know, we’re moving much away from the NHS model and [01:30:30] we’re still within an NHS system, how people are making this commercial [01:30:35] entity drive in. Um, you know, we’ve, we’ve went from kind [01:30:40] of like veneers ten, 15 years ago now we’ve got composite [01:30:45] and then it’s clear aligners and stuff. These people are constantly changing but constantly evolving and adapting [01:30:50] to this crazy commercial landscape. Um, and outside of, [01:30:55] outside of dental. Um, my absolute [01:31:00] mentor, um, Jess Clydesdale, who I went to university with [01:31:05] has been instrumental in, um, absolutely everything I’ve done in [01:31:10] terms of what jobs I’ve taken, what I should ask for, who I, who I speak [01:31:15] to about getting a pay rise. Like we bully each other up. Um, and I’m going to be a [01:31:20] complete sycophant here and say that Ashley and I talk every single day about how we can be better [01:31:25] every day. Um, yeah. Like I can look to these books and stuff.

Speaker 8: But man, [01:31:30] you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious you’re enjoying yourself at the same time. It’s obvious you’re very professional. [01:31:35] You know, you’re, you’ve got a goal. You know, it’s not just fun.

Ashley King: It’s like you’re in it to win it. But [01:31:40] we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Also.

Ashley King: We’re best friends. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but it’s obvious you’re loving it. You know, you’re loving relationship. [01:31:45]

Sophie Lovett: You know what? We’re not always we don’t always. I feel like we don’t say what we want [01:31:50] to hear all the time. Like we say the things that are harder hitting that, you know, when [01:31:55] you love somebody so deeply that you can say things that are going to be constructively critical. [01:32:00] One of the best, best things that’s happened in my life is Ashley King in terms of [01:32:05] I think we’ve just really kind of supported each other up and we don’t [01:32:10] get jealous of each other. We are so excited. I mean, this was just supposed to be you today and [01:32:15] we just could be apart.

Ashley King: We’re a package deal. I there’s stats [01:32:20] that say if you work with your best friend, you’re more productive and you’re more likely to stay at your company. [01:32:25] Makes sense. And then at previous companies, I still talk to my best friend at that last [01:32:30] company. Like one of them, she just had a baby. And we send voice memos, you know, [01:32:35] weekly. And so I think it goes back to we’re spending most of our time at work. Why [01:32:40] not love the people that you work with? And it doesn’t mean that you’re the identity of your relationship [01:32:45] has to revolve completely around work. And it doesn’t mean that they have to [01:32:50] be family, because I think you can use and abuse people if you label them that way. But, [01:32:55] um, there’s just, I mean, we’re spending the time at work. Why not [01:33:00] do the most important thing in life and build relationships that matter.

Sophie Lovett: I think pearls is quite lucky [01:33:05] that it has such a well, it’s, you know, it’s done things. It’s done so many things right, [01:33:10] but it’s got such we’ve got such a good team. We’re about what, 300 now in the company. And but [01:33:15] there’s people who like working together. And because of that, I mean we work more hours than we [01:33:20] would if we didn’t enjoy each other’s company. Yeah. We have the best team here in the UK.

Ashley King: We’ll go to [01:33:25] dinner sometimes and, you know, just end up talking about work the whole time and then we’ll solve a [01:33:30] huge problem. But you know, you think about Paul Graham, who he he’s over Y Combinator. [01:33:35] He’s been a bunch of the early start-ups tech start-ups. He says don’t [01:33:40] start a company without a co-founder.

Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah. His big thing.

Ashley King: Yeah. It’s [01:33:45] super important. So you need to have your people and Sophie’s mine.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:50] about if I say, what’s your biggest mistake you’ve made in business? [01:33:55]

Ashley King: Um, for me, I would say trying [01:34:00] too hard.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to sell something [01:34:05] to someone who doesn’t want to buy it.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Ashley King: Or just, you know, you work with a partner, it’s not working [01:34:10] or you’re trying to go into a territory. The territory is a good example.

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s [01:34:15] a mistake. I love, you know, we’re.

Ashley King: Still working on it. We haven’t given up. But like we just don’t [01:34:20] have the right people or things in place right now to be successful there. Yeah. And it’s like sunk cost fallacy [01:34:25] almost. But I look back at all of the amazing things [01:34:30] that have happened to me and my successes, and a lot of them did not involve an [01:34:35] enormous amount of effort of trying to make it work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right.

Ashley King: It’s I believe.

Sophie Lovett: It was something that [01:34:40] just fit like it’s.

Ashley King: Alignment. Yeah, yeah. So I think, and, and when you’re trying [01:34:45] too hard, you’re not having fun.

Speaker 8: Yeah. You’re right.

Sophie Lovett: You know, something Ashley does is she’ll [01:34:50] tell you what she’s great at. And then you look at what she’s great at. My biggest mistake in [01:34:55] business and life was I used to not speak very nicely about myself, so I would go [01:35:00] in maybe for a 1 to 1 with a manager and I would say, I’m so sorry I haven’t done this yet. I’m [01:35:05] so, you know, apologising, you know, maybe not to that extent, but directing people towards my [01:35:10] flaws.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And again, I think that this is where I’m trying to change that. Maybe it’s a masculine thing [01:35:15] where you go in and you say, I have done this, I’m doing amazingly. How you know I’m [01:35:20] indispensable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a self-confidence issue, I guess.

Sophie Lovett: And it’s totally changed in [01:35:25] the last few years. Um, it has completely transformed. And now I just feel so confident [01:35:30] about going in and saying, here’s what I’m doing. You need me. But for a long time, that wasn’t [01:35:35] the case. Or in my perception was that. But perception is reality, as you always say.

Ashley King: I [01:35:40] think that you made a good point about it being a confidence thing, because what [01:35:45] Sophie is, is very authentic. But if if you’re being authentic [01:35:50] and you don’t actually like yourself, yeah, you know, authenticity is great, [01:35:55] but make sure you like yourself first.

Sophie Lovett: But we have. We collectively [01:36:00] we have been. Some of our biggest mistakes are that we have ground [01:36:05] ourselves to the bone. Right. And we have worked so hard. And then every now and then we just need to stop and say, what’s it [01:36:10] for? Okay. You live life once. We also need to go. Have a lovely time.

Ashley King: Yeah. Go [01:36:15] on.

Sophie Lovett: Holiday. Yeah. And I think both, every time we reset and do something that’s away from work, [01:36:20] we come back with just a better mentality, a way of going [01:36:25] about things. And, you know, it’s not just about being in this bubble.

Payman Langroudi: I also think it’s [01:36:30] important to have those times during the week, you know, times where you’re not full on. [01:36:35] Yeah. Times, time. I think it’s important to have time where you’re not expected [01:36:40] to do anything. Yeah.

Ashley King: Are you talking about. I [01:36:45] think of this in two ways. Like personal selfish time has nothing to do [01:36:50] with work or anyone else. It’s like pursuing.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying. It’s good for work. It’s good for.

Ashley King: You. So you’re talking. So the second [01:36:55] way I was going to say is, and this is what two women who are very successful at our [01:37:00] company have told me, they said you need at least 90 minutes a week, preferably [01:37:05] a day to strategize. Yeah. You’re not doing anything. So I’ve [01:37:10] tried to like bake that into my schedule.

Sophie Lovett: And what, like strategizing about your life outside of work? [01:37:15]

Ashley King: No. At work? Yeah. Like if you’re in meetings.

Payman Langroudi: When I was when I was an associate dentist, I [01:37:20] mean, as a practice principle, like it’s a different story, but an associate dentist, I went from [01:37:25] 5 to 4 days, and on the fifth day I thought I’d be [01:37:30] enlightened. Yeah. Yeah. There would be no enlightened if I was working five days a week.

Sophie Lovett: Is that what you called it? [01:37:35] Enlightened? Was it an enlightening moment for you on that fifth day? Sounds [01:37:40] quite biblical.

Payman Langroudi: But honestly, I wouldn’t have. I really wouldn’t have. Because on that [01:37:45] fifth day, I was reading self-development books. 26 year old kid. I was reading self-development books [01:37:50] and I was thinking about what to do and all of that. Um, and, but now [01:37:55] that I reckon 90 minutes a day is actually right. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: One of our core values [01:38:00] at Pearl is be an owner. Mhm. And yeah, that really feeds [01:38:05] into that. And I think they genuinely do not micromanage. They allow us to do [01:38:10] our thing, you know, provided that you’re doing something that is for the cause. And it’s allowed [01:38:15] us, as you said earlier, doing this, doing things that have really got Pearl’s name out there. I [01:38:20] mean.

Payman Langroudi: Now you’ve done a good job, you’ve done a good job.

Sophie Lovett: I think we’ve done an excellent job. Yeah. [01:38:25] I mean, who knew about Pearl wasn’t here before 2020, [01:38:30] 2019. And now, you know, if you haven’t got [01:38:35] it, you know about it. This is based on a few people in the UK team.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:38:40] think maybe now’s a good time to talk about your competitor.

Sophie Lovett: Go on then.

Payman Langroudi: Go [01:38:45] on.

Sophie Lovett: We don’t see them.

Ashley King: We have we have several competitors. Yeah we have a which one are you talking about. [01:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your USP? As as you know, in this in this category, in this space, compared to [01:38:55] competitors USP, I mean, um, let’s just go with Overjet for the sake of the argument.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:39:00] like this question. Right. So we have been put on this land on this UK territory. [01:39:05] Yeah. To learn and listen, the reason that we have partners in the Netherlands [01:39:10] looking for some in Australia, in the Nordics is because Pearl knows [01:39:15] that dentistry is different in every single different territory. What really sets us apart [01:39:20] is the product here is not the same as it is in the US. It’s different. We have [01:39:25] gathered information that’s allowed us to be super compliant [01:39:30] in the different territories. Some of them, some of our, our, um, competitor [01:39:35] products. They’re not patient facing because they’ve not got the compliance because they don’t know where to look. [01:39:40] So I think one of the things is the robustness of the data that’s trained the product. And [01:39:45] that’s not just we’ve just looked at people in the US, The product has been trained on [01:39:50] radiographs from all over the world. Okay, we’ve listened to what is needed. We’ve [01:39:55] got rid of what’s extraneous and what’s not required for the UK or other territories. [01:40:00] And we’re here. We have clinicians in the UK who work for Pearl who [01:40:05] understand UK dentistry. Again, our partners have clinicians in [01:40:10] the Netherlands and the Nordics who understand UK dentistry territory dentistry. That [01:40:15] is for me, the biggest differentiator. And first and foremost, [01:40:20] we’re actually within the products themselves. So we understand the workflow as well. We do not sit [01:40:25] in our rooms all day. We go out, we go into.

Payman Langroudi: The positioning of Pearl compared [01:40:30] to other competitors.

Ashley King: So I think like right now, Sophie gave a good picture as [01:40:35] to why we’re different in this moment. Fundamentally, [01:40:40] as an organisation. My big I’m [01:40:45] like an evangelist on culture. It’s really annoying and it sounds really cheesy, [01:40:50] but culture eats strategy for breakfast.

Sophie Lovett: Mhm.

Ashley King: The [01:40:55] people at Pearl and our mission and vision is what differentiates [01:41:00] us from our partner or our competitors. I also ascribe [01:41:05] to. I’m reading 0 to 1 right now by Peter Thiel. Say what you may about him. He’s [01:41:10] a genius.

Payman Langroudi: The book.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah. Good book. And his thing is, competition is for losers, right? We [01:41:15] created a product where really no one had had created a 2D detection. [01:41:20] We have a few competitors now, but where we’re moving and the movements [01:41:25] that we’re making, you can see in the US to add on workflow efficiency [01:41:30] products, etc.. And we plan on doing this globally as well, [01:41:35] catered to the specific markets. It goes back to what our ethos [01:41:40] is, which is allowing dentists to provide the best patient care and get back to dentistry. [01:41:45] Um, and I think because we have this fundamental [01:41:50] altruistic in a way, like we want to make dentistry, we’re elevating [01:41:55] the standard of dentistry, right? This is our why. And that that’s going to be out any [01:42:00] competitor where that’s not clear.

Payman Langroudi: So look, I mean, if you had $1 billion [01:42:05] exit before. Yeah. So he knows what he’s doing. Yeah. But what is he doing. [01:42:10] I mean, how is it that the culture is so like you’re on the other side of the world? How do they get their culture [01:42:15] over to you?

Ashley King: I think I mean, you said it, he he could have probably just retired [01:42:20] if he wanted to. He’s doing it for the love of the game. And he’s doing it because he wants to impact an industry.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:42:25] if you were advising me, I want to get culture through to my team.

Sophie Lovett: He came here, right?

Payman Langroudi: There’s only 40 of them. [01:42:30]

Sophie Lovett: He comes to see us. This is the thing. You know, he has a real presence.

Ashley King: Number one for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:42:35]

Sophie Lovett: He really is a presence. Yeah. It’s his baby. And you’ve got to remember, he is the son of a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:42:40] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, uh, the his co-founder, Doctor Carl Stanley.

Ashley King: I think it’s really [01:42:45] basic. It’s like it goes back to the Simon Sinek start with why like all this, what’s your [01:42:50] why? But the way that you actually execute on it is [01:42:55] showing up. And you have to tell your team what it is and [01:43:00] keep saying it over and over. Repetition, get them bought in. Also, I’m like so much more excited to go to work [01:43:05] and say, I’m, I’m fundamentally changing dentistry than I’m glad I’m, I’m adding shareholder value. [01:43:10] Like no one wakes up in the morning wanting to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Sophie Lovett: I think he, you know, I think he likes the people he works with as well. [01:43:15] You know, he wants to have this. He’s a cool guy. He’s an amazing product. He’s an absolute [01:43:20] genius, isn’t he? Yeah. But this weekend he was whatsapping me. You know, he it feels really [01:43:25] personal. And again, it feels like that we’re passing that on [01:43:30] to our users as well. We work with people we like to work with, but we also [01:43:35] provide value with this product. That’s excellent. I think you kind of have to have both. You [01:43:40] know, the reason that people buy something sometimes is like, oh yeah, it’s a great product. But actually [01:43:45] I really like who I’m working with. These guys know what they’re doing. We know what we’re doing, and [01:43:50] I think we really listen as well. And that’s what affair does. He still runs all the company calls [01:43:55] us. And you know, if he wants to chime in [01:44:00] and say something, he will. It’s really personal.

Ashley King: It’s authentic. It just goes. And [01:44:05] you know, you’re talking about the 3D reality and what we can see. But they say authenticity [01:44:10] has like the highest vibration and like wavelength. That’s what the spiritual world says. [01:44:15] And I think that that is what it’s authenticity. Yeah. We’re [01:44:20] all here. And you trust me, you’re not going to work at Pearl if you don’t believe in the mission and vision, because you’re going [01:44:25] to work really hard for something you don’t care about, right? We’re all here because we love the [01:44:30] mission we have. And like, we love the game. So. And that comes from [01:44:35] top down, right?

Payman Langroudi: It is cool.

Sophie Lovett: It’s really cool, isn’t it? I was doing some filming, uh, with [01:44:40] a group called Jen Smile. Stunning practices, by the way. Went to my first dental [01:44:45] practice with a swimming pool. Thank you.

Ashley King: Okay.

Sophie Lovett: It was gorgeous.

Ashley King: Can we go there this summer and just [01:44:50] get a tan? Absolutely.

Sophie Lovett: Jen, smile if you’re listening. Um, and, uh, so I was doing the filming [01:44:55] and this videographer came along and he said to me, it was really nice filming something [01:45:00] where I understood the product whilst I was filming it. So he had no idea about it beforehand. But [01:45:05] um, he said he got it really, really quickly. He said it [01:45:10] was such a cool product, but it also makes him filming a lot easier because [01:45:15] he knows where to sort of change things, cut things when when he knows what it is. He says he films [01:45:20] so many times where he just absolutely has no idea what the person does or the company does.

Ashley King: Wow. [01:45:25]

Sophie Lovett: Um, so we’ve just got so many different things. We’ve got so many [01:45:30] strings to this bow that just, I feel really privileged to be able to work here. It’s, I mean, there’s people [01:45:35] lining up to work here. It’s it’s tough. It’s so tough. Um, [01:45:40] but it’s so rewarding as well.

Payman Langroudi: I did a bit on another pod. Yeah. And I [01:45:45] enjoyed it. So I want to throw it in now. It’s unrelated to kind of work. It’s kind of a guilty pleasures [01:45:50] section. What’s your guilty pleasure when it comes to food? [01:45:55] Fast food.

Ashley King: Honest [01:46:00] burger.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Ashley King: I’m a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had have you had the black [01:46:05] Bear?

Ashley King: No.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. There’s one around the corner. Unbelievable.

Ashley King: Let’s go.

Sophie Lovett: What’s yours? [01:46:10] Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Kfc? Kfc?

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, it’s not that.

Ashley King: That’s a [01:46:15] good choice.

Sophie Lovett: My mum used to make when she was at university. She’d like, does this whole, uh, woe [01:46:20] is me thing? And she went to Preston Polytechnic, which I think is now the University of Central Lancashire. [01:46:25] Um, but she used to make soup with KFC bones. [01:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Sophie Lovett: She was a poor student, apparently. And so no, not, necessarily. [01:46:35] I don’t know, whatever I have anything.

Payman Langroudi: Guilty pleasure. Music.

Ashley King: Oh. [01:46:40] Like 90s. Country. Country.

Sophie Lovett: 90s country.

Ashley King: Shania Twain. [01:46:45] Oh, yeah. I’m going out tonight. Looks like we made [01:46:50] it. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I could just listen to divorced.

Ashley King: After that song.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:46:55] could listen to The kinks and and Fleetwood Mac and Beatles all day on repeat. [01:47:00]

Ashley King: Oh, sunny day by the kinks.

Payman Langroudi: Before your time.

Sophie Lovett: Slightly before my time, yeah. And the kinks, [01:47:05] yeah. I love the kinks so much. They’re so good.

Ashley King: You put me on to them. The kinks. [01:47:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you had nothing like. No, no no work, no expectation. You had half a day to yourself. What would [01:47:15] you do?

Sophie Lovett: I’d probably download Candy crush.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sophie Lovett: No. [01:47:20] I really have to avoid having games on my phone. I just think. [01:47:25]

Payman Langroudi: You get addicted.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, yeah, they are, but they are designed to do that. You know, I think a lot of people would probably [01:47:30] think that and not say it, but, I mean, I love a cryptic crossword. I’m such a loser. So [01:47:35] either give me a cryptic crossword or Candy crush. No, I don’t have Candy crush. But honestly, if I had. [01:47:40] If I had no work to do. I hate being bored. I hate being bored. But I would probably download [01:47:45] phone games. Oh.

Ashley King: That’s so funny.

Sophie Lovett: Sorry. Oh no, I wouldn’t read. I’d just waste.

Payman Langroudi: Time [01:47:50] stuck in the guilty pleasure bit. Oh. What about.

Ashley King: You? Half day off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Oh, [01:47:55] man.

Payman Langroudi: Go berserk. Whole day off. Honestly, like no expectation.

Ashley King: I’m. [01:48:00] My ass is in a chair on the beach. And I’m getting a tan. I’m drinking pina [01:48:05] colada.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you’re in London.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I thought you meant if we couldn’t do. If we had no, like, money.

Payman Langroudi: Or you’re [01:48:10] in.

Sophie Lovett: London.

Ashley King: Yeah, right. I know, I know, maybe maybe I’m [01:48:15] in Kent on the coast on a nice sunny day.

Sophie Lovett: We’re in. We’re in a small swimming pool in Dorchester. [01:48:20]

Ashley King: No, Saint Ives is great. I went there two years ago. It was beautiful. But yeah, [01:48:25] I think I would.

Sophie Lovett: Do one hand strawberry daiquiri, the other.

Ashley King: This is. That’s like Sophie’s thing. She’ll order [01:48:30] both at one time.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Ashley King: She looks like a total alcoholic.

Sophie Lovett: It’s called a Miami [01:48:35] Vice. Yeah. And I do like Miami Vice, but I like to have. I feel very even. [01:48:40] When am I going to Dental forum? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Sophie Lovett: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:45] don’t know.

Sophie Lovett: I tell you where we are going.

Payman Langroudi: Two days after the Ministry of Health.

Sophie Lovett: We’re going to the Ministry of Sound, aren’t we, Ashley?

Ashley King: We [01:48:50] are.

Sophie Lovett: We fought for this.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to go to Dental forum. Like you have to leave. You know you can’t leave on the Sunday [01:48:55] morning. You have to.

Sophie Lovett: Leave. I’m having I’m having a day recovery from. No, we might leave [01:49:00] slightly early. I don’t think we’re going to drink at the Minimalist Ministry, are we?

Ashley King: Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:49:05] questions. A fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? [01:49:10]

Ashley King: Okay, so I was thinking about this. It depends on what the vibe is like. [01:49:15] Are we. Is this like a fun dinner party? Am I trying to learn?

Payman Langroudi: If you want to have fun. [01:49:20] Have fun. Invite invite a fun guy. Okay.

Ashley King: I [01:49:25] my answer to you would be Mur Mira [01:49:30] murati. She is a. She was the CTO of OpenAI.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:49:35]

Ashley King: And now she runs thinking labs.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: She’s like one of the more prominent women [01:49:40] behind the AI movement that no one knows about it. Um, [01:49:45] so I would like to.

Payman Langroudi: Wish you from Romania.

Ashley King: She’s Albanian, I think. Albanian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’ve [01:49:50] seen I’ve seen the profile.

Ashley King: And I keep trying to find different like podcasts and like, she just has [01:49:55] very little presence. So I would like to sit in a room with her and ask her some [01:50:00] questions. She seems like a genius. Um, the second person. So this [01:50:05] is, by the way, this dinner is like trying to learn everything that I can. Dinner. [01:50:10] Not a fun dinner. So, Sophie, I think you’d be really bored if.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s, like, real. [01:50:15] So she sends me on Instagram. Have changed from being, like to, like, code. Yeah. [01:50:20] Claude hack.

Ashley King: This is my toxic productivity. Taking [01:50:25] a fun exercise and turning it into. Anyway, um, the next person who [01:50:30] I would like to learn. Paul Graham um, and then Nikola [01:50:35] Tesla.

Payman Langroudi: Nikola Tesla. Yeah. Yeah. Well done.

Ashley King: Um, I feel like there’s a lot that [01:50:40] he discovered, especially around free energy and all these [01:50:45] scientists that have been dying. There’s like 12 different scientists who are studying something adjacent to what he.

Payman Langroudi: Said, something [01:50:50] about propulsion.

Ashley King: And like anti-gravity. And I think all of it goes back to the free energy. [01:50:55] And so I’m very fascinated. That’s I have ADHD, so I get like very. Did you study in uni, public [01:51:00] health and biology? Oh, really? Yeah. So yep. That’s who it would be a [01:51:05] very interesting. Everyone would be way smarter than me. But that’s how you learn.

Sophie Lovett: Who [01:51:10] do I have? I’m not going to go Joe Lovitz route and say my partner. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:51:15] don’t allow I don’t allow that.

Sophie Lovett: In my partner.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t allow that answer. I never allow that.

Sophie Lovett: She’s Cuban though, [01:51:20] so, you know, so I would probably have, oh my gosh, I’m such a loser. But I just love Rory [01:51:25] Stewart So much Rory Love Rory Stewart so much. Do you know who I [01:51:30] would love to hear from? Whether it’s in her voice or her [01:51:35] fake voice is, I want to know what Elizabeth Holmes actually thinks. I [01:51:40] wouldn’t have that.

Ashley King: Sophie has like a weird she’s like, weirdly, she’s even wearing the black shirt [01:51:45] like like black turtleneck.

Sophie Lovett: I was talking today about like, how I can change my voice. Um, I [01:51:50] just think like, once you go lower, then you become more successful.

Ashley King: So if Sophie starts a [01:51:55] company after this, be concerned.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, if I, if I, if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re fascinated by the way she pulled the wool [01:52:00] over everyone’s eyes.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And if like, how much she’s deluding [01:52:05] herself about what she did and didn’t know. Right.

Ashley King: Like I feel like she was actually, I think she actually believed [01:52:10] that she could do it. Like, I don’t think she went into minutes.

Sophie Lovett: Five more minutes, right? Like 5 [01:52:15] million more.

Ashley King: She was just so pathological that she believed her own lies kind of thing.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Um, [01:52:20] I need someone funny. Um, I mean, you can come to my dinner party if [01:52:25] you want. No, no. No, man. Um, Nick garrison from Pearl. [01:52:30] So funny.

Ashley King: Also super smart.

Sophie Lovett: So [01:52:35] smart.

Ashley King: Went to Harvard. Smart guy.

Sophie Lovett: Um, no, I don’t know.

Ashley King: I think that’s a good answer. We’ll leave it at [01:52:40] Nick.

Sophie Lovett: Let’s leave it with Nick.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sophie Lovett: Have you met Nick?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Sophie Lovett: He, like, he, um. [01:52:45] He. He’d come in in his overalls. You’d be like, oh, this room doesn’t need painting [01:52:50] today.

Ashley King: Our joke with Nick is, like, which tradesperson are you dressed as today? Yeah. [01:52:55]

Sophie Lovett: You, like, dislike.

Ashley King: Struggling artists.

Sophie Lovett: Disney.

Ashley King: Bouncers.

Sophie Lovett: And architects.

Ashley King: But [01:53:00] he actually is good style.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And like, this guy will give you the brutal [01:53:05] truth as well. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Is he based in L.A., though?

Sophie Lovett: He’s based in LA. His ideas [01:53:10] and morals are so spot on as well. He’s he’s really trying to do a [01:53:15] lot now for the UK and um, in terms of how we can support [01:53:20] paediatric dental care as well. He’s he’s a really kind of moral smart guy.

Ashley King: He is [01:53:25] he he’s also someone who I think has really maybe [01:53:30] he’s more vocal about them, but he has contrarian beliefs compared to what I like. [01:53:35] I’ll say something that I think is a great idea. And then he’ll be like, no, you’re completely wrong. And let me [01:53:40] tell you why. And I’m like, damn, yeah, yeah, you’re kind of right, actually.

Sophie Lovett: And [01:53:45] also he’s.

Ashley King: Like, he.

Sophie Lovett: Just, he like, he kind of like [01:53:50] morally name drops as well. So he’ll just be like, oh yeah, Jen [01:53:55] and Jen and Brad or like Jen and.

Payman Langroudi: Get into ministry. Well.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:54:00] he’s a good guy. Ministry. Yeah. A lot of people want to come to ministry. Tell us [01:54:05] about ministry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, we’re gonna have so much fun.

Sophie Lovett: We’re gonna have so.

Payman Langroudi: Much, so much fun trying experimental [01:54:10] education in this new, new setting.

Sophie Lovett: Can I ask you a question?

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sophie Lovett: If [01:54:15] you were principal again, would you have Pearl?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, I [01:54:20] was never a principal there. I never owned a practice.

Sophie Lovett: Make Payman principal again. [01:54:25] But you say. You say, of course. So definitively. [01:54:30] What makes you say that?

Payman Langroudi: The trust question. What I said about trust. It’s [01:54:35] huge. I was good at knowing what dentistry was about. I was, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed [01:54:40] being a dentist. Um, definitely. It’s about trust. Yeah. Yeah. That’s [01:54:45] the key point. Um, it’s a bit like, you know, you know that thing EMS do that. Uh, gee, [01:54:50] what’s it? Guided biofilm therapy. Yeah. On paper it sounds ridiculous. [01:54:55] Yeah, it’s a 200 £0 scaler. That’s crazy. Whereas it’s, you know, it’s the [01:55:00] regular scale is like $500. This thing’s like 20 grand. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, [01:55:05] but every single patient goes through that thing and it makes a [01:55:10] cleaning much more comfortable. Yeah. And when you realise that the value [01:55:15] of it’s way more than 20,000.

Ashley King: Right.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, it’s one of those things.

Sophie Lovett: So seeing past [01:55:20] the face value of something and then looking into.

Payman Langroudi: Like a no brainer.

Sophie Lovett: It isn’t a.

Payman Langroudi: Total [01:55:25] no brainer. And I didn’t even realise it was that cheap. I thought it’d be much more.

Sophie Lovett: I know, I know, when.

Ashley King: I joined, I was like, [01:55:30] that’s all we charge. But now, you know, we get pushback on price all the time. So I don’t [01:55:35] know. It depends.

Sophie Lovett: People often say, and who you are is that, like you said, is that that’s not per [01:55:40] practice. Is that per chair?

Payman Langroudi: Per chair?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But people do have single chair practices who pay for it. I [01:55:45] mean, and I’ve said to everybody, cancel it. If if it’s not making [01:55:50] that return and we have no cancellations, do we. It’s um.

Ashley King: Very low churn.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:55:55] yeah. It’s an incredible product. We’re very lucky to be working here.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:56:00] wish my people were as enthusiastic about my stuff as.

Sophie Lovett: They love working.

Ashley King: Sometimes I feel like I’m in a cult. I’m like, am [01:56:05] I gonna realise like, ten years from now? You know, like hindsight is 2020, like.

Sophie Lovett: Send [01:56:10] us that special water, don’t they? That we have to drink?

Ashley King: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That medicine, that pill [01:56:15] we have to take every morning. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t turn up to that final meeting at Mafia’s [01:56:20] country home.

Ashley King: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: He sent us.

Ashley King: He said something about kool aid. [01:56:25] I don’t know, it was weird.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming. I really [01:56:30] enjoyed.

Ashley King: It. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:56:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:56:40] Your hosts Payman [01:56:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki : Thanks for listening guys. If [01:56:50] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:56:55] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to [01:57:00] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:57:05] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get [01:57:10] some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki : And don’t forget our six star [01:57:15] rating.

 

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Professor Tara Renton, OBE [00:01:00] onto the podcast. Does that mean I have to call you Dame now? No.

Tara Renton: Absolutely [00:01:05] not. It was the latest I know. I can’t believe it. [00:01:10] I’ve got goosebumps even talking about it. And have you been. No [00:01:15] no no no. You get you get a letter from um the Cabinet [00:01:20] Office like in big letters on the envelope I think. Oh my God, what have I done? This was like end of November [00:01:25] or what had my husband done more importantly. And um, and you open it [00:01:30] up and it basically is three sheets as a questionnaire. You fill in if you’re accepted or not, and a bit about your [00:01:35] E and D bits and pieces. And then, um, basically the letter says, um, [00:01:40] you have to keep this secret. You’re not allowed to tell anyone. Mhm. Um, and you’re [00:01:45] sort of in a state of disbelief. Um, and I managed to keep it [00:01:50] quiet for my husband for who’s of 39 years. Um, my sort of, my, [00:01:55] my, my biggest supporter, my silent weapon. I like to call him. Um, no, [00:02:00] no, actually for nearly two weeks. But the person I was most desperate [00:02:05] to tell was my 87 year old mum, I bet, and I was, and I just thought, I can’t, I can’t, [00:02:10] I’m so glad I didn’t. Um, and so I told my husband, we didn’t tell anyone. And then we were at a [00:02:15] New Year’s party with friends and one of them and found out and you get [00:02:20] this little trickle of people who obviously there’s some people obviously study it every year, like in depth. And I’ve got some [00:02:25] lovely emails from people and texts. Um, and then one of my girlfriends has seen it and [00:02:30] announced it at the dinner party. So most, not all, but most of my good friends know. [00:02:35] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve told your honour.

Tara Renton: I’ve told my mum. Yes. I think.

Payman Langroudi: She’s.

Tara Renton: I think [00:02:40] she’s inventing people to ring up and tell she’s absolutely buzzing. Bless her. So [00:02:45] she’s, she’s widowed. Um b 30, 32 years [00:02:50] this year. My father was a dentist and died at 62 on an exercise bike. So [00:02:55] um, as I mentioned, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Four generations, four generations. [00:03:00]

Tara Renton: Yeah. So, um, three guys, I make another Wolfson [00:03:05] candidate, a bit like Richard Porter and others. Um, but um, [00:03:10] yeah, my, my father was a GP. Um, he was, he did his national, he did [00:03:15] his guy’s dentistry and then he did, um, LDS and then he did national service. Um, [00:03:20] and that’s how he met my mother. He was out in Cyprus during the Suez crisis. And my mother’s father was a, in [00:03:25] the army. So they met and married um there and then my grandfather was a dentist, [00:03:30] a private dentist in Golders Green. So he did dentistry with um, with um, uh, [00:03:35] basically, um, what do you call it now? Just just. [00:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: Operated.

Tara Renton: Yes. Well yes, it was, there was a trundle his front room in his house at number [00:03:45] 11, North End Road. If anyone was, was his surgery, they had that distinct smell and we used [00:03:50] to go and visit them. Um he was just up the road from the um the the the palladium [00:03:55] golden screen palladium. So he had always his, his, uh, his waiting room, which was [00:04:00] doubled up as a dining room at the weekends, a big fish tank always people like Sid James [00:04:05] and Hattie Jakes, all the big names were often sitting [00:04:10] in the waiting room.

Payman Langroudi: And your great grandfather.

Tara Renton: My great grandfather’s a bit more of a leap because [00:04:15] he did. He qualified in surgery in 191887 at [00:04:20] Barts, and he, um, went into the Indian [00:04:25] Army Medical Corps, and he, I think he did 3 or 4 tours there. So he [00:04:30] was there for a long time and a bit of a naughty boy. So he, um, he, um, [00:04:35] my grandmother, my great grandmother left him, came back with my grandfather [00:04:40] and his brother, who’s brother actually ended up being the royal vet Proby Cautley. And [00:04:45] um, and, uh, he retired, came back to England. And [00:04:50] in those days before the dental Act, he could, he decided to do dentistry, and I always thought that was a bit of an [00:04:55] odd choice. But it turns out, thanks to when I did a bit of research for courtly Dental dynasty for [00:05:00] the British Historical Society. He was one of six officers, [00:05:05] medical officers that were invited back to do a special course at Guy’s Hospital and [00:05:10] doing dental extractions, because obviously we all know with the Napoleonic saying, can’t bite, can’t [00:05:15] fight, we know the repercussions in the army of dental unfitness. And in [00:05:20] that in that era, I mean, it was after the Boer War where more people, as many people, [00:05:25] died of toothache as they did of being shot. Yeah. Apparently, um, in [00:05:30] those days it was a real problem. That’s what made made, rendered servicemen just unfit. So they basically [00:05:35] thought, well, we’ll bring six surgeons, medical officers back, teach them how to do dental extractions. [00:05:40] And that was the beginning of the Army Dental Corps. That’s really interesting. So that obviously swayed [00:05:45] his choice. He thought he’d retire in Norfolk and become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I heard a statistic that 3,040% [00:05:50] of the of the military, the front line were [00:05:55] debilitated by dental pain, you know, back then.

Tara Renton: I’m not surprised.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting.

Tara Renton: It is [00:06:00] fascinating. We live in today. I mean, we think 30% of, you know, the kids.

Payman Langroudi: Gas. [00:06:05]

Tara Renton: Gas. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the most common reason for kids under 12 to be [00:06:10] admitted to hospital is, is dental caries. It’s just, it’s, [00:06:15] it is shocking. And I, if you ask me about bugbears, that’s one of my bugbears. And [00:06:20] I know you’ve touched.

Payman Langroudi: On isn’t that like societal in the UK and that there [00:06:25] is a neglected bottom 10% in the UK or whatever percentage it is, but the. [00:06:30] And by neglected, I don’t necessarily only mean by the the the healthcare [00:06:35] system. It’s almost like the bottom 10% of everything in the UK has just been [00:06:40] let go. Everything. You know, you can have the best universities and you [00:06:45] can have the worst. You can have the best schools and the in the world and some of [00:06:50] the worst, the best restaurants in the world.

Tara Renton: And some of the words. I’ve never thought about it in percentages wise. [00:06:55] I mean, all these amazing initiatives, you know, Dental smile in Scotland [00:07:00] where they they get kids to read and brush their teeth with teddies and try and [00:07:05] encourage the parents to read with the kids and brush their teeth. I mean, there’s some fantastic incentives and you and [00:07:10] also increasingly now in nurseries, you know, I’ve got my first ever grandchild and [00:07:15] they’re talking about nurseries and we’re talking, they get breakfast and they get their teeth brushed.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [00:07:20] how does it feel to become a grandmother?

Tara Renton: Oh my God, I never saw it. So surreal. 5th of December last year. [00:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is it surreal?

Tara Renton: It’s amazing. It’s amazing. And I’m not the most maternal person. [00:07:30] I, um, I never thought I’d have kids. I honestly didn’t all be married. No, I never did. [00:07:35] Never did. No. So all happy circumstance. I’ve got three lovely kids, and our eldest [00:07:40] son Tim’s had little sac and we were babysitting him yesterday. It’s. You can’t describe [00:07:45] it. I don’t think you just can’t describe it. It’s incredibly special and also slightly [00:07:50] anxiety producing as well. You think this world and what we’re talking about and yeah, [00:07:55] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel the weight of becoming a dentist when [00:08:00] you were deciding this stuff? Because did you know about the three generations before you?

Tara Renton: I didn’t know, [00:08:05] no, I knew obviously my grandpa and obviously my father, but I didn’t know. So it’s a really good question. [00:08:10] Payman. Because actually, um, I thought perhaps in retrospect, [00:08:15] but actually at the time, I remember my dad being stressed all the time and [00:08:20] he loved his work. He loved his patients. He loved the NHS. It took me a while [00:08:25] to figure out at his funeral, actually, he was 17 when the NHS was invented. He was a massive [00:08:30] advocate of never doing private work, always doing NHS dentistry, and a lot of your [00:08:35] podcast people talk about the amount of admin work you do in general practice. My father was there till [00:08:40] midnight, 1:00 every night, every morning, doing all his old brown cards.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Tara Renton: Yeah. [00:08:45] I mean, they saw so many patients. He had a dual surgery, he’d numb one patient up. [00:08:50] And then, you know, I mean, the volume of.

Payman Langroudi: And was it the traditional setup where you lived above [00:08:55] the.

Tara Renton: No, no, no separate practice. No. We lived about a mile up the road.

Payman Langroudi: Where where was.

Tara Renton: I? [00:09:00] Uh, Taunton, Somerset.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, a lovely place.

Tara Renton: It’s still a still a big practice. Now Bupa practice number [00:09:05] one. Staplegrove road. Yard house. So, um, so I grew up with my dad, and I could never [00:09:10] figure out he loved his work so much. And he was very, very dedicated. I could never understand what [00:09:15] it was. And it was sort of penny dropped, really. He never relaxed. He only ever took like two weeks holiday in [00:09:20] the summer. Um, and it was essentially at least 1 or 2 of his [00:09:25] partners just stressed him out. He hated taking time away from the practice because he’d come back and [00:09:30] something had been done or. Mhm. Um, and that was his big stress or he wasn’t probably the most [00:09:35] business oriented man either, which is I’ve inherited that. So I understood [00:09:40] that my. Yeah, I, I felt no pressure at all because actually when I [00:09:45] told him I could only do maths, I was pretty dyslexic at school, never diagnosed. I failed [00:09:50] my English O-level. Um. I struggled reading probably up until I got to university. Still, I struggled [00:09:55] then um and uh, but could do maths and physics. I got into girls grammar school, [00:10:00] you know, worked incredibly hard. Um, loved the sciency stuff. And I remember [00:10:05] thinking, what can I do with sciences? And I could do medicine, possibly do veterinary. [00:10:10] Um, in those days, probably still the same at some girls schools. I was offered nursing [00:10:15] or teaching. I was my mum was very ambitious for me. She never had a career, so she wanted me [00:10:20] to be independent and I did too. Um, and I remember thinking I kept coming back [00:10:25] to dentistry because I love art, I love using my hands. I love making things. I love using my brain. [00:10:30] I just thought, actually, I can travel, I can earn good money. I can work part time. What, [00:10:35] what a better job is there, you know, and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Back then was the percentage of women, much less. [00:10:40]

Tara Renton: Uh, well, it was my year at guy’s when I went to guy’s at 1979, was [00:10:45] the first year they had 50% girl students, so the movement had started. [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: 79. The year we got to Britain.

Tara Renton: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Winter of discontent.

Tara Renton: Yes. [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: It was a tough time.

Tara Renton: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Tough. We were coming from Iran, which was like. It [00:11:00] felt like, I don’t know, whatever Dubai must feel like right now or something. Yeah. And we got here and it was dark [00:11:05] and it was raining and there was rubbish piled up because they hadn’t collected the rubbish. [00:11:10]

Tara Renton: All the strikes.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone was on strike.

Tara Renton: Yeah. And I thought such different times.

Payman Langroudi: And they [00:11:15] built it to us. You know, we were kids. Right. They built it to us as we’re going to England. It’s going to be great. I [00:11:20] was like, what happened here?

Tara Renton: Whereabouts in Iran did you come from?

Payman Langroudi: My, [00:11:25] we’re from the north. But. But we were living in Tehran. Right. Um, and we were very [00:11:30] lucky to get out in time. My dad had a few English people working for him. And when the UK embassy [00:11:35] told them, get out, we got out.

Tara Renton: So.

Payman Langroudi: So many people [00:11:40] didn’t manage to get out in time.

Tara Renton: You know, it’s a story that’s not told enough, I think. My husband was involved [00:11:45] with BP in Iran.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Tara Renton: And all through that transition, actually, it’s very interesting. [00:11:50] And I was very lucky. I got invited to lecture there about eight years ago and we went.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Tara Renton: It’s the most [00:11:55] beautiful country and lovely people. So sad. What’s happening? Yeah. [00:12:00] You must have friends and relatives. I’m so sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, and, you know, they even managed [00:12:05] to block Starlink now.

Tara Renton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s you can’t even, you know, my [00:12:10] uncle, we’ve only spoken to him once in the last three weeks, and [00:12:15] he was too scared to say anything. Um, he just kept on saying I’m okay, [00:12:20] I’m okay. But he wouldn’t talk about the situation because, you know, [00:12:25] this sort of 1984 thing that’s happening across all countries. Right. Yeah. [00:12:30] Um, it’s it’s a weird thing. I remember reading that book thinking it was, [00:12:35] it was a warning about communism or something. And I think it was right. That’s Sorry. And [00:12:40] thinking like, that’s, that’s, that’s a period in the past rather than that’s a period in the future. But [00:12:45] you feel like with data and AI and all of that, we [00:12:50] are merging with the machines. It’s one of those crazy things that there’s no getting in the way [00:12:55] of it now, because billions and billions are being thrown at it. Yeah. So those people aren’t going to stop? [00:13:00]

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any thoughts about my my, my daughter was saying she wants to [00:13:05] be a dentist.

Tara Renton: Well, you see, when I, when I came back from school, having had this really [00:13:10] awful session with a careers advisor, loosely termed, I remember saying to dad, [00:13:15] you know, I really wouldn’t mind doing dentistry. And he went absolutely over my dead body.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:13:20]

Tara Renton: And I said, but you love your work. He said, I love the work, but I don’t like the business. [00:13:25] And I find it very you know, I never said stressful. That was not one of [00:13:30] his vocabularies. But he just said, I don’t want you to do dentistry. So in the end, um, [00:13:35] I he was, he was both my parents were very sporty and played lots of hockey. We used to watch them [00:13:40] play hockey at the weekends and we. We all got shoved out to do sport as well, so we weren’t under their feet. And [00:13:45] um, he said he, he sort of capitulated and said, well, okay, okay. [00:13:50] And he said, do medicine or do, do veterinary. And, and I just said, well, I don’t really know [00:13:55] what they do. So in the end, he said, well, I’ll tell you what, um, I’ve asked my veterinary veteran [00:14:00] hockey team and I think there was a vet, there was a medic, there was a psychiatrist, there [00:14:05] was a solicitor, a barrister, an accountant. Um, what else was there. Oh [00:14:10] there was a manager of a, of a hardware store. Anyway, he said um if [00:14:15] you go and do work experience with all of those and come back and say you still want [00:14:20] to do dentistry, he wouldn’t have me in the in the surgery, he, I had to go and work with one of his partners.

Tara Renton: Uh, [00:14:25] then we’ll have a conversation. So I did, I dutifully did, I lasted probably [00:14:30] 15 minutes at the vets, the first little fluffy creature that I was going to be put down. That was it. I was out of there. [00:14:35] Um, I remember thinking with the GP and these are the days where you [00:14:40] couldn’t have someone sitting in there or you could with patient’s consent. But, and I remember thinking, God, [00:14:45] these, these blokes are stuck in a small room with mad people all day. And arguably that’s [00:14:50] what I’ve ended up doing. But, you know, and, and I had no concept of specialisation [00:14:55] or what possible things there were in the future. But I came away from that thinking, [00:15:00] I definitely don’t want to do medicine. I definitely don’t want to do veterinary. I definitely don’t [00:15:05] want to do accounting. Um, and, uh, and, and I had [00:15:10] a conversation with dad and he said, well, okay, um, then then [00:15:15] go for it. But he, you know, he did say caveat. You’re like me, young lady. You don’t have [00:15:20] any business acumen. So be very careful.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you listen as an aside, [00:15:25] let’s talk about that because I know it’s a tough business. It is a tough business. You’re breaking your [00:15:30] back. You’re in it rather than on it. At the same time though, the [00:15:35] economics of it work out that you don’t have to be Gordon Gekko to make [00:15:40] some money as a dentist. You’ve just got to be good to your patients. Good to your staff. Yeah. [00:15:45] Obviously, the basics of any like a corner shop has to pay its taxes and [00:15:50] and its rates and all that. But but you know what I mean. As a business, I wouldn’t call it a difficult [00:15:55] business. Much easier business than the one we’re in. Yeah. Yeah. This business overnight could [00:16:00] could, could be worth nothing. Yeah. You know, based on some global competitor. Yeah. [00:16:05] Whereas if you want to practice in Surrey and you’re nice to your people and nice to your. It’s [00:16:10] not a bad business.

Tara Renton: No, but still, essentially, I think you have to be comfortable with running [00:16:15] a business, comfortable putting your face out there, promoting yourself, asking [00:16:20] for money. None of those things were something that I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t come.

Tara Renton: Naturally. No. And certainly [00:16:25] didn’t come naturally to my father.

Payman Langroudi: You go. You go from Taunton to the big city. [00:16:30]

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, how were you with that? I mean, that must have been super exciting. [00:16:35]

Tara Renton: I was super excited. I was I got in, I was a bit younger, so I was just [00:16:40] 17 and I was ready. My grandma and I’d been the odd visit to my grandpa [00:16:45] and he’d taken me to Hamleys and a couple of. He introduced me to ballet, which was one of my passions. Oh, nice. [00:16:50] Um, so I sort of, I definitely, definitely was ready to go to a big city. I got into [00:16:55] several places. I got into Bristol and Manchester. Um. Um, [00:17:00] but actually I thought London was for me for four and a half, five years.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:17:05] I didn’t manage to do the introduction properly yet. But you’re right now you’re a world leader in [00:17:10] orofacial pain. Um, tell me just just make me, make me feel better and [00:17:15] tell me that you weren’t always that sort of super ambitious, super focussed person? [00:17:20] No. So as a student, you would just.

Tara Renton: I worked hard, I think because of my [00:17:25] dyslexia. I, I, I, it’s quite interesting before [00:17:30] all these types of learning. All my O-levels. My bedroom wall was covered in [00:17:35] coloured bits of paper.

Payman Langroudi: So obviously your strategy for getting around.

Tara Renton: That’s how I could remember things [00:17:40] and how I could learn things. And I got, you know, I failed my I mentioned I failed my English O-level, but luckily it was a girls [00:17:45] grammar school. So we did all those basic five a year early. So I had another chance [00:17:50] to bite at the cherry I managed to pass it with. But you know, I was getting A’s and I was in top sets [00:17:55] for everything, but asked me to read out loud in an English class. I just wanted to die. [00:18:00] And I, you know, I had a tough time for some of the, some of the teachers as well who just think [00:18:05] thought I was just not trying just so I had this, um, ethos. And obviously, [00:18:10] as I said, my mum was quite ambitious for me, definitely to work very hard [00:18:15] and I did work hard. And I remember my first day at 17 at Guy’s Hospital in a biochemistry [00:18:20] lecture and I thought, I have arrived, I love this, I could [00:18:25] swear, love this. Um, I just knew I was in the right place. I [00:18:30] loved all the dissection. I loved that smell of formula. And I love the Gordon Museum. I love [00:18:35] all of that. That was just my you know, and I, I’m very, very [00:18:40] curious, you know, on all fronts.

Payman Langroudi: I’m horrified by dissection.

Tara Renton: I [00:18:45] just thought we were so honoured.

Payman Langroudi: Those people, of course.

Tara Renton: You know, I saw it from that perspective [00:18:50] and I just thought it was just so interesting. And you know, every which way did [00:18:55] different angles. I, I absolutely loved it. I was flying the first two years. Um, [00:19:00] did you party? Yes, yes. I had a lovely boyfriend at the time. [00:19:05] Very healthy social life, didn’t do much dancing, didn’t do much sport, had a [00:19:10] bike. So I did a bit of cycling, which I still do now. Very passionate about that. But um, no, no, I [00:19:15] had a really, really good time. Lots, lots of drinking.

Payman Langroudi: And what would you say then if we’re talking, [00:19:20] what was the sort of inflection point to go from that to? You’ve [00:19:25] put out 250 papers now.

Tara Renton: There wasn’t Payman.

Payman Langroudi: There was [00:19:30] no there must have been an inflection that you said, I want to be the best at something or I want to specialise. [00:19:35] I mean, not what tiny proportion.

Tara Renton: Specialise when I, when I walked out of, I got the [00:19:40] final year prize, I came second in the year, but that’s because I was loving [00:19:45] what I was doing and I worked hard. It wasn’t out of some focus of ambition. I [00:19:50] definitely, definitely knew I did.

Payman Langroudi: Not class yourself as an ambitious person.

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:19:55]

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Tara Renton: No. It’s serendipity. Honestly, I’ve [00:20:00] I’ve landed in a corner of my life in an area that I absolutely love. [00:20:05] I really enjoy the people I work with. I love still seeing the patients, [00:20:10] um, part. Retiring and moving away from surgeries made me realise how much I missed that. [00:20:15] Mhm. I don’t miss the admin. I don’t miss all the hassle that goes with the NHS. [00:20:20] Now. It’s so difficult to do things. So difficult to change things. Impossible [00:20:25] to be innovative. But no, I would not say I was an [00:20:30] ambitious person. I would always do. I always do my best on everything. And as I say with [00:20:35] that background, I just was doing in an area that I love. I remember qualifying in, [00:20:40] in dentistry, thinking, I’m never, ever going to come back and have to do any academic work ever again. Seriously. [00:20:45]

Payman Langroudi: How funny.

Tara Renton: But then I knew I didn’t want to do peds because it was just [00:20:50] too stressful working on children and their family. I knew I didn’t orthodontics.

Payman Langroudi: Similar [00:20:55] issues.

Tara Renton: And perio weren’t for me. And I remember Richard [00:21:00] Haskell was one of the consultants, an oral medic consultant, absolutely Armenian. [00:21:05] And he was a genius. He was intellectually brilliant. I remember him doing a giant [00:21:10] diagnosing giant cell arteritis and doing like a giant temporal artery biopsy, [00:21:15] just like that, you know, just and I sort of thought that’s the sort of person I would [00:21:20] really like. I’d like to be that good. I never thought I would would be anything like it. But, um, those [00:21:25] are the people that really inspired me.

Payman Langroudi: And did you, you must have had crisp and.

Tara Renton: Crisp [00:21:30] and Scully I love but never taught me. I had Roy Roy Castle, Roy Coulson, who was [00:21:35] an inspirational, inspirational Frank Ashley that comes later. [00:21:40] He was the one that pushed me to do a PhD. In the end, he was really.

Payman Langroudi: Edwina.

Tara Renton: Kidd. Edwina Kidd I [00:21:45] saw recently at the Dental day.

Payman Langroudi: Was she when you were.

Tara Renton: She was restorative. She was like a young lecturer and restorative. [00:21:50] Really. Richard Palmer. Oh, he was lovely. He’s still a good friend. He was a great mentor, actually, [00:21:55] as a student. Really lovely man.

Payman Langroudi: Have you put implants in as well? Yeah.

Tara Renton: Did implants. [00:22:00] This is how old I am. I think I put some of the first ever branemark and cor [00:22:05] vent and imz implants in, in my max fac training in Melbourne. So we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Going.

Tara Renton: Um, [00:22:10] when’s that 1987, 88, 89.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did it take [00:22:15] between qualifying and doing max max training. Was it pretty.

Tara Renton: Quick. Not, not it [00:22:20] was not an intentional thing. Nothing’s been intentional. And when a lot of the kids come up to me and say, oh, can [00:22:25] I have some career advice? I’m saying you’re asking the wrong person about career advice. My, my, you know, I [00:22:30] sort of focus down. I wanted to do a combination of, of medicine and surgery. [00:22:35] And the only options then were max fac. So basically, like a lot of people, you [00:22:40] know, the rich and porters of the world and other people, you think, actually, I’d like to get my first part [00:22:45] fellowship and I’d like I didn’t got an show with my, um, uh, [00:22:50] with Don Gibb, the Max fac surgeon who was the most of them were singly qualified or [00:22:55] singly qualified. Don Gibb um, and I remember did my first essay [00:23:00] and I thought, no, I really quite like this, you know, the, the casualty. And I’ve got some great stories about [00:23:05] what happened in casual and bits and pieces. And I really, I guess I just like being stretched [00:23:10] and in an area that I love and it just the potential just keeps.

Payman Langroudi: Going, going.

Tara Renton: And, [00:23:15] um, and then with Don Gibb’s help, I suspect I got shortlisted [00:23:20] for a Esho at Torbay Hospital and I was a massively keen windsurfer at the time. [00:23:25] So I applied for all the jobs along the South coast and I got the job at Torbay [00:23:30] and I was there for a year as an SHO. Stayed on for another year as a SHO forward slash registrar. [00:23:35] Hugh Brock he used to rock up to work either on a horse or on a motorbike. [00:23:40] He was a real character, had handlebar moustaches and a handlebar moustache and alongside [00:23:45] bands. He was a genius of a man and sadly died of bowel cancer far too young. Another [00:23:50] inspiration in my life. And um, I loved that work that and again, [00:23:55] work hard, play hard. Great doctors, great, great people. A lot of people just stayed [00:24:00] in Torbay. I don’t blame them. Um, and that was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: The work.

Tara Renton: It was, it [00:24:05] was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. The whole thing.

Tara Renton: Yeah. 1 in 2 on call, I think I did. Oh I did nine 1 [00:24:10] in 8 years, 1 in 2 on call. You add it all up. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The old NHS. [00:24:15]

Tara Renton: The good old days. Yeah. 72 hours on. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But you loved [00:24:20] it. Oh, I loved it. So then you decide to do Max factor training?

Tara Renton: Well, no, because I had [00:24:25] with my family guys, I was offered to do free medicine. And I remember thinking, [00:24:30] going back to that girl who did the work experience with her dad’s veteran hockey team, I don’t [00:24:35] want to do medicine. What is it going to change me? You know, surely I can do what I want to do without having [00:24:40] to spend another five years of my life doing. I don’t want to do that. Um, what I hadn’t realised [00:24:45] is obviously that time expired senior registrars were just beginning to happen. So [00:24:50] there’s still a chance you could get through single qualified. But actually I just on [00:24:55] principle I was not going to do that. So I thought I did really just under three years [00:25:00] at Torbay Hospital. I thought right, I need some time out. I’m not sure if I want [00:25:05] to use my ovaries or not. I need time out just to think about what I want to do. So I got a job as a ski rep with Inghams, [00:25:10] and in the first two weeks I met my husband who helped to put my skis on the [00:25:15] back of the bus and he was working in Australia, so I quit that job, went back, got a job [00:25:20] in practice in Bournemouth with my windsurfer, Barry Nibbs, a real character, recently retired [00:25:25] and did eight months in practice whilst I waited for my migrant visa to come through. And we got [00:25:30] married and I followed my husband out to Australia. So we knew each other for two weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Whirlwind, [00:25:35] but especially for someone who decided not to. Wanting not to get married and have kids.

Tara Renton: I [00:25:40] was telling my brother the night before I met Tony, I’m never going to get married. I [00:25:45] have a certain type if I do, if the biological clocks. The clock [00:25:50] is ticking. I’ll just go to a Danish, Asperger’s or sperm [00:25:55] bank pick and, you know, like the Scandinavians [00:26:00] and all. Yeah, and the rest is history. The perfect man [00:26:05] turned up the next day. Yeah. I knew he was the one. I told my mum. I went back for Christmas. My [00:26:10] mum and I said to mum, I think I’ve met the man I’m going to marry. She said, oh, don’t be so stupid. [00:26:15] To finish the washing up and, uh, and yeah. And then two weeks, a week [00:26:20] later, he proposed, went off to Australia and I went out for a holiday to meet [00:26:25] him, but he was posted in Papua New Guinea for most of that time, which was disastrous. Um, but [00:26:30] yeah, got married in August. That was 39 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Were you not considering staying in Australia [00:26:35] after that stint?

Tara Renton: I never wanted to go to Australia. I went I followed Tony to Australia, but the the reason I’m telling [00:26:40] that story is in order to get my migrant visa, I had to get jobs in practice. So [00:26:45] I got jobs in practice. I registered with Victoria State Dental those days it wasn’t federal [00:26:50] Dental board, it was um state. Um, so I ticked all the boxes to try [00:26:55] and maximise getting my migrant visa. And that included getting offered jobs in, in practice. [00:27:00] So I was working three days in dental practice, two days a week as a volunteer at the National [00:27:05] Art Museum. That’s my passion is. And I just thought, actually that’s what I was going to do. I was going to [00:27:10] finally do art. You know, my my dad had Pooh poohed that right at the start. Um, and [00:27:15] I remember Carlo Roberts, who’s a South African, uh, practice, [00:27:20] uh, principal real character took me on two days a week in lovely Beaumaris in Melbourne. [00:27:25] And, um, I’d finished a day’s work and um, he [00:27:30] said to me, oh, Tara, I’m supposed to be giving this tutorial tomorrow night. I just can’t be bothered, [00:27:35] you know, more about you’ve done more oral surgery and wisdom teeth. Why don’t you give the tutorial [00:27:40] about wisdom teeth? So I thought it’s fair enough. He’s done lots of favours. I can do that.

Tara Renton: And [00:27:45] there was about it was for the Royal Australasian College of Dental Surgery. So the RA [00:27:50] CDs, which is the RCS equivalent here. And um, [00:27:55] there was about 12 young mainly blokes, um sort of students, not [00:28:00] post-grad. No, they’re postgrads. And um I gave my tutorial [00:28:05] and there was a bloke sitting at the back and then I thought very old bloke sitting at the back and [00:28:10] he didn’t introduce himself, he just disappeared off. And then two weeks later, I got this telephone call [00:28:15] at work saying, um, is that Tara Renton? I took all my married name because I used to be Tara [00:28:20] Courtly. And, um, and I said yes. And he said, oh, it’s a professor Peter Reid here. I run [00:28:25] the Oral medicine, Oral pathology and Oral maxillofacial program at Melbourne Hospital, [00:28:30] Melbourne University. Um, I listened to your I was very impressed [00:28:35] by your talk you gave the other day, and I’m sorry I didn’t introduce myself. I had to rush off. He said, I just wanted [00:28:40] to ask you, um, this was November, [00:28:45] late October, early November. He said, um, we have a very good, um, [00:28:50] maxfax maxillofacial program, which is four and a half to five years. [00:28:55] And we have two candidates a year and one of the candidates just dropped out and [00:29:00] it starts in January. So I remember thinking, oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. [00:29:05]

Tara Renton: And I thought, and I remember thinking, I don’t want to do max work. And what it was is [00:29:10] max FAC program very much like the American model. So basically integrates medical studies. You [00:29:15] don’t end up you don’t walk away with an M.D. but and it’s very orthognathic [00:29:20] lots of trauma, lots of dental alveolar, a smattering of head and neck, [00:29:25] bit of plastics. So it was very much the American model. And of course, I didn’t have to go and do five [00:29:30] years of medicine. And I thought, actually, I’m quite tempted by this. But then I didn’t [00:29:35] know how long we were going to be in Australia for because Tony was on a temporary visa with BP. So the reality was two, [00:29:40] two and a half years max. So I went back and had a chat with my long suffering husband [00:29:45] and just said, actually, I’m really quite tempted by this. He said, well, look, if you want to do it, do it. But [00:29:50] you know, I don’t think he realised how what hard work it was going to be. And it was hard work, but [00:29:55] incredible training. So that’s how I ended up with a max fac qualification. But then when [00:30:00] I came back to England five years later, pregnant with my firstborn unintentionally. [00:30:05] And, um, yeah, for those girls in the audience on the pill and, [00:30:10] um. And couldn’t get a job. Why so [00:30:15] xenophobic about foreign qualifications? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, isn’t it?

Tara Renton: Couldn’t [00:30:20] get a job. Um, so I managed to scrape in through the back door back at guy’s with Pat [00:30:25] O’Driscoll, and I did a locum SPR for him in max vac. I did that till [00:30:30] I dropped my first born, Tim. Um, and that’s really good that I did that in a way, because [00:30:35] it just got my foot back in the door and people remembering who I was. And, and so [00:30:40] when I had sort of six months just looking after Tim, I was hoping to get back to work part time, [00:30:45] no part time jobs in oral surgery didn’t exist. It was just max vac, [00:30:50] um, oral medicine. And you needed medicine to do that as well. So what I did is I put my [00:30:55] CV in the post to three main teaching hospitals in London and heard back from two [00:31:00] of them. And one of them was Mark McGurk. Professor Mark McGurk, who basically said, [00:31:05] look, I’m prepared to take a risk. And he did. I had an interview with him. To my chagrin, [00:31:10] I managed to get pregnant with my second son after being offered the job before starting it. Wow. Um. [00:31:15] And, uh, but anyway, he was, he was great. So three days a week, he was doing research [00:31:20] for the Royal College of Surgeons, sort of some research funding he had. And it was basically three, [00:31:25] it was three days. I did three, um, uh, 3GA [00:31:30] third molar lists and three clinics. And I did that for ten [00:31:35] years.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Tara Renton: Um.

Payman Langroudi: And were you at this point now thinking of research [00:31:40] as well?

Tara Renton: Well, because it was the research, because it was already research. Yeah, I was, [00:31:45] I was doing it and I used to bump into Frank Ashley. I mean, I then had two young [00:31:50] boys, um, and, uh, and I remember thinking, actually, this is great part [00:31:55] time ticks all the boxes. Loving the research side of it. Um, really [00:32:00] loving the operating sort of ticking all the boxes and sort of five, five years in and then just [00:32:05] just about to have my daughter. And I remember thinking, what’s the career prospects here? There was none. So [00:32:10] I was I had been made an associate specialist. Um, definitely [00:32:15] wasn’t going to do medicine. Um, because I didn’t think how that would change my practice and it wouldn’t [00:32:20] have done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And, um, sort of got started thinking and I was thinking, [00:32:25] you know, what to do. And every time I was late, often late doing my, you know, finishing [00:32:30] off everything, I’d get in the lift at guy’s. And one of the downsides of that of the [00:32:35] guy’s hospital on the, you know, the Dental hospital on different floors is you rarely interact with [00:32:40] people, different specialities. But one of the upsides is that blooming lifts, because you’re waiting for them [00:32:45] for ages and you’re in them for ages. And I used to see Frank Ashley a lot, who was then Dean, and he used to say [00:32:50] to me, Tara, you should be doing a PhD. The research you’re doing is really good. And I said, look, [00:32:55] for God’s sake, I’ve got two young kids. I’ve got another one on the way. I can’t do a [00:33:00] PhD. And he said, yes, you can. So I spoke to Mark about it and he was very, [00:33:05] very supportive. Something that got me going as well as [00:33:10] that, they advertised for a bombs trainee and I didn’t get it and I was really upset about [00:33:15] that. Um, so I thought actually the only option is to have a career is to do a [00:33:20] PhD. And that would give me the options to follow through with academic oral [00:33:25] surgery. So that was the academic omfs as it was called. So that was my only option. And so [00:33:30] call me ambitious, I don’t know, I just I knew that what I was doing was not enough. [00:33:35] Um, it ticked a lot of boxes. Um, but [00:33:40] I wanted more, I wanted to do more. And I guess I did want [00:33:45] some recognition for it. Looking back, I guess I did that I wasn’t happy just to sit doing [00:33:50] all that work. Um, as an associate specialist.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to, I’d like to delve [00:33:55] into the juggle of being, you know, that person with three children, [00:34:00] you know, the, in that in that era as well. Um, [00:34:05] how you pulled that off. But I’m even more interested in the notion of the [00:34:10] recognition and the, you know, the driver [00:34:15] for doing things. I was, I was funny, I was talking to my wife about it that [00:34:20] let’s say we sell enlightened for a stupid amount of money, like $1 billion. It’s, [00:34:25] it’s not worth anything near that. I was saying to her then then we’d be going [00:34:30] walking, trying to get a coffee like we are right now. Yeah. Having done that. But [00:34:35] it’d still be me and you going to try and get this coffee and. But there’d [00:34:40] be something in the back of your head that you feel like you achieved something or some something like that. [00:34:45] Yeah. But what’s, where’s the deficit that [00:34:50] wants me to feel that feeling? And of course, there’s, there’s, you know, whether you want to call [00:34:55] it ambition or deficit or whether these are bad words, maybe, but but, you know, like recognition, [00:35:00] is there an aspect of, you know, you have that the weight of the generations before you. [00:35:05] So you want to show that you did something.

Tara Renton: That’s not Payman that’s not my driver.

Payman Langroudi: Or is it something else? Is it is [00:35:10] it is it someone who underestimated you as a, as a woman or whatever? As a as a [00:35:15] young girl? Like, where does this come from? I’m so interested in it.

Tara Renton: It’s it’s fascinating. [00:35:20] Um, such an interesting question. I think for me, I’d [00:35:25] look at it as a different perspective, as a curious person. I think it’s the what’s next? [00:35:30] So you’ve sold your company for zillions of. Zillions of pounds. You’re walking down the road to get [00:35:35] a coffee with your lovely wife. You’re going to be thinking, what shall I do now?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe. [00:35:40]

Tara Renton: So for me, I’m flipping it. But that’s probably more where I was. [00:35:45] I had no aspirations to do more academia. I regard [00:35:50] myself as academia.

Payman Langroudi: You know how you said when you got an OBE, the first person you wanted to tell was your mum? Yeah, yeah. [00:35:55]

Tara Renton: That’s probably that’s probably it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something there. Yeah. Why? Why was the first person you [00:36:00] want to tell your mum to sort of tell her that all her hard work was worth something?

Tara Renton: Yeah. No, [00:36:05] she was very ambitious for me and I never realised quite so much. [00:36:10] And she had a she basically never had proper schooling. She was an army child. So they were post-war [00:36:15] Germany. Then they were Malta, then Cyprus. So. And she’s a very bright, [00:36:20] bright lady, one of five Cornish family um, did all sorts of jobs [00:36:25] when I was growing up. So I grew up with a working mother. She was a PE teacher, green shield stamp lady, a model, um, [00:36:30] second hand clothes shop, uh, rental, wedding rental business. So [00:36:35] that’s interesting. Always working. She’s always finding a channel.

Payman Langroudi: Your definition of normal, [00:36:40] seeing your mum was someone who was working really hard.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. My father, my father, we hardly [00:36:45] saw dad. Yeah. And the only time I could speak to my dad was coming downstairs at 1030 [00:36:50] at night, and he’d have his unofficial second dinner, which my mum was always. He’s always [00:36:55] on a diet and he’d have his big jar of Horlicks, and like a jam [00:37:00] and bread, and with all his dental notes, doing his dental admin. And that was the one time [00:37:05] I’d often. Often, if I’d come back from a party, you know, or come back from the pub with [00:37:10] friends, I’d sit down and chat with him. And that’s when I had my valuable time with dad.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:37:15] talk about the juggle.

Tara Renton: Yeah. The juggle. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about the juggle. Three kids, academic [00:37:20] career, PhD research. I mean, it’s a lot. What [00:37:25] gives in that situation? Did anything give. Do you feel like something gave.

Tara Renton: Oh, [00:37:30] definitely. Um, I don’t think you at the at the time you’re just in [00:37:35] the jungle. You’re fighting the fire. Yeah. Um, and you’re very aware of the compromises [00:37:40] that other people are making for you particularly. Um, I think there’s a, I don’t think [00:37:45] it’s just women, but you have this guilt, you know, I’m a rubbish mother. I’m a rubbish wife. Um, [00:37:50] I mean, I do talk about my husband. He really is my secret [00:37:55] weapon. He’s been so supportive. And I mean, I did a part time PhD five [00:38:00] years with three kids under five. I mean, I was it [00:38:05] was it was only like a couple of years later when Ella was like 3 or 4 and she was doing, you know, those stick pictures [00:38:10] they do at school. There was Mummy and Daddy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Pictures. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: So it was Mummy and Daddy, two [00:38:15] brothers, Cat and Ella and I had this big square black box here. [00:38:20] My laptop.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, no.

Tara Renton: Yeah. So and also, you know, [00:38:25] it’s just and I was aware I was, I was aware, I mean, I did function, I got them to school, I got [00:38:30] them to all their clubs. I was working three days a week. I didn’t have the nanny when the two days a week I wasn’t working. So I [00:38:35] was trying to be a good mum. Um, and we did lots of stuff at the weekends. I’ve [00:38:40] never been ever. My husband doesn’t encourage me to talk about work at home, so that’s [00:38:45] sort of off limits, which I think is really healthy actually. Um, and [00:38:50] it’s only since the kids have left home and we’re both retired that we’ve actually realised [00:38:55] some of the similarities we have. I would say we were completely polar opposites. But you know, we both [00:39:00] love getting things started. He, you know, he’s a bit of a businessman. He likes getting things started. [00:39:05] Has some great ideas. So we have a lot more in common than we probably realised [00:39:10] during this fire fighting period. Um, but his career came first. You [00:39:15] know, when we were BP and and I was working part time, he was working quite hard. And then, [00:39:20] um, serendipity in a way. At 52, he’s the clever, smart one.

Tara Renton: He was [00:39:25] on the full pension. He could walk away from BP and he wanted to. And we had a long chat about that. And obviously, [00:39:30] you know, he had other opportunities. He could have travelled and done gone up the chain. And but [00:39:35] we made he made that conscious decision. And at that point, that’s when I got offered [00:39:40] the job at QM. Shmuel. After doing my PhD. So I was offered a senior senior lectureship [00:39:45] at Shmuel. Um, uh, and it was full time or [00:39:50] nothing. So that was just serendipity that those phases worked in. So [00:39:55] he could be, um, he still was working. He was making much harder. I joke, having left [00:40:00] BP, we always call it the protected workshop. A lot of these corporates, you know, it’s not so much now, [00:40:05] but you know, end salary schemes, secretaries super [00:40:10] well looked after. Yeah. So he started up quite a few bits and a few companies. [00:40:15] He’s been very successful. So he was working but he was at home a lot of the [00:40:20] time still boxing, boxing a little bit. Um, but I and that we sort of basically swapped, you [00:40:25] know, um, yeah, still working very much as a partnership, but that’s probably that [00:40:30] facilitated that.

Payman Langroudi: So then the skills it takes to become [00:40:35] a leading academic specialist, I can, I can [00:40:40] take, I can, I can imagine some of them, right? You’ve got to work hard. You’ve got to be imaginative. Yeah. You’ve [00:40:45] got to think outside.

Tara Renton: The.

Payman Langroudi: Box passionate. But what about like the politicking [00:40:50] and.

Tara Renton: The power.

Payman Langroudi: Games that go on.

Tara Renton: Not very good at that. I have I [00:40:55] have literally been. I was offered the job at [00:41:00] QM and had a difficult [00:41:05] time. That was another learning experience there. I have to say I was I was very badly bullied. There [00:41:10] was an article about it in the times, I think December 24th about [00:41:15] the culture change of the misogyny, and it was really bad. So I was the only [00:41:20] single qualified person in the group in the department. And, um, it [00:41:25] was tough. It was really tough. I lost about a third of my hair. I lost my eyebrows, my eyelashes. When I look back [00:41:30] at the pictures now, I just hadn’t realised the physical. I was commuting like an [00:41:35] hour and a half, two hours a day.

Payman Langroudi: Um, each way.

Tara Renton: Each way full time. [00:41:40] It was only full time job. Um, and that’s when thing cracks became [00:41:45] really happen. And it was the first time in my life I didn’t want to go to work. I’ve always [00:41:50] loved my work. Um, always jump out of bed in the morning [00:41:55] and, you know, skip to work. It’s the first time, and I really didn’t want to go. My husband was just saying, walk. Just walk. It’s [00:42:00] not worth it. And I thought about whistle blowing. Came very close to that. Actually spoke [00:42:05] to a few different people. Um, everyone knew. I mean, sounds very [00:42:10] much like things may not have changed that much, but who knows? Um, and, [00:42:15] you know, a lot of there have been a lot of catastrophes before me. Um, mine [00:42:20] was just another, you know, one along the road and I [00:42:25] basically, um, went to my boss at the time. Lovely, lovely boss [00:42:30] and just said, look, either I go part time and I don’t have to go to these consultant [00:42:35] meetings and be humiliated and screamed at on a regular basis for nothing, or [00:42:40] I walk. And that was a really hard thing for me to do because I, [00:42:45] you know, love my work. Um, she capitulated and that [00:42:50] made life much better. So I was offered that job in the first place, which, you know, was a learning [00:42:55] because I often was very dismissive of there were not many girls in that environment, obviously. But, [00:43:00] you know, girls were talking about fellow fellow women talking about being bullied, bullied at work. And I always [00:43:05] remember thinking, oh goodness, just stand up for yourself, you know? Boy, oh boy, was [00:43:10] the shoe on the other foot during that period. It was awful.

Payman Langroudi: And the kind [00:43:15] of woman who goes into oral surgery tends to be the get on with it type of person.

Tara Renton: Absolutely. [00:43:20] Well, as Stephen, Stephen was saying, is it something like 8% of [00:43:25] surgeons are psychopathic?

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Tara Renton: And I’ve always joked, actually, I think you have to [00:43:30] be a little bit psychopathic to cut into another human being. Yeah, maybe as a dentist as well, I don’t know. But [00:43:35] you have to have that bit of your personality.

Payman Langroudi: But who do you blame for this incident? I [00:43:40] mean, clearly the perpetrator, but it’s.

Tara Renton: The culture of the department is, you know, is ongoing [00:43:45] for years there being, no female fatalities before? Before [00:43:50] me who’d been, you know, come and gone.

Payman Langroudi: But the culture of the the the profession, [00:43:55] I mean, you know, it starts in dental school, isn’t it? You get you get some [00:44:00] some poor student who gets targeted by by some teacher.

Tara Renton: Well, [00:44:05] there’s bullying everywhere. There’s bullying in the schools. I mean, thank God, you know, all this social media stuff has got worse, [00:44:10] I think. I’m so grateful. A, I didn’t grow up with that. And B, my kids, my kids. [00:44:15] 33, 31, 28 we didn’t, I mean, mobile phones were just coming [00:44:20] through. My daughter was going to senior school, so we were so lucky to. And my kids are lucky to have not. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: But would you say the culture in academia is any better now?

Tara Renton: Uh, yeah. No, it is, it is, [00:44:30] it is. There’s still, you know, relatively fewer women, um, in [00:44:35] senior academia, particularly in, in medicine. Um, no, I think [00:44:40] it, I think it’s pretty good actually. I’m, I’ve not never been that. [00:44:45] So I was going to say that I then got. Basically offered to apply [00:44:50] for my job that, you know, I now have a Kings. And I know when a difficult time was happening [00:44:55] and I’d gone part time and I was thinking I was part time for about six months. I then got that message from Nan Wilson [00:45:00] saying, you know, um, the job I, the job I thought I was going to offer [00:45:05] you 18 months ago no longer exists, but actually there’s a chair first chair [00:45:10] in oral surgery. Would you, I want you to be at the interview. And I remember saying to him, I don’t have enough tickets [00:45:15] for that. So it’s not me aggressively looking for the next step up. I’ve, you [00:45:20] know, on three counts max fac training in Melbourne, I would argue actually even [00:45:25] the show at Torbay, I’ve been given those opportunities. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [00:45:30] it’s nicer. It’s nicer when someone doesn’t go for an opportunity. Like those are the people [00:45:35] you want to push forward sometimes.

Tara Renton: Well, there’s an element of that. I think there’s a lot less of that now. I think I think [00:45:40] in the dental environment, you know, our trainees, the kids that want to come and do oral surgery. [00:45:45] I mean, the ratio of applicants to successful training posts is [00:45:50] ridiculously high. And most of those kids are worthy of it for sure. [00:45:55] So it’s, um, it’s, it’s probably. Yes. [00:46:00] I’m not very good at playing the political games. I’m very aware of that. So [00:46:05] meetings, I would avoid those as much as possible. I always felt there were great waste of time. [00:46:10] I would go to meetings where I thought there might be a change at the end of it, something concrete. [00:46:15] But I often felt that actually it was a lot of meetings. For meetings sake. I was great [00:46:20] at getting in there doing. I loved, I ran the the undergraduate oral surgery program [00:46:25] for 11 years and made that really good. I loved it, great teachers, some still [00:46:30] around, which is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: You were head of department, right?

Tara Renton: Yeah, head of department. I was the first chair, first chair in [00:46:35] oral surgery appointed and obviously the first female. And there’s been lots since. Um. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s let’s talk a little bit about orofacial pain. Yeah. And [00:46:45] about surgical safety. Mhm. Which [00:46:50] are your two main areas of interest? Um, firstly, [00:46:55] I, I’m really interested in this notion of it seems clear that [00:47:00] psychological stress, uh, sorry. It seems clear that that [00:47:05] chronic pain causes psychological stress, but it’s not so obvious. [00:47:10] But but it’s certainly true that psychological stress brings on pain.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a two way [00:47:15] road.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And when you’ve got that patient in front of you that several others have probably looked at [00:47:20] and, and baffled by or, or it’s a difficult patient. Do you start [00:47:25] by trying to unpick the which which came first, the chicken or the egg or does it not? [00:47:30]

Tara Renton: You have to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh you.

Tara Renton: Do. You have to. So, I mean, I was so blessed in my job at King’s. [00:47:35] Um, I wrote several business plans, which obviously a bit of a challenge for me and set up [00:47:40] this multidisciplinary clinic. So we have, um, uh, headache neurologists. [00:47:45] Peter Goadsby, who’s like king of migraine. He’s the guy that did a lot of the research [00:47:50] behind the antibodies for migraine. He’s super, super, super chat. So [00:47:55] some of his fellows would come and work with us. We have, um, a liaison psychiatrist, [00:48:00] which is really interesting. Never been taught anything about psychiatry. Wow. That was an eye opener. [00:48:05] Then we had a fantastic clinical psychologist, Sarah Barker, who now works privately. And [00:48:10] we have a big psychology team at the dental school in Kings, um, at [00:48:15] Denmark Hill. And we have a neurosurgeon and we had, uh, [00:48:20] we have visiting ENT and some other specialists and obviously restorative the [00:48:25] likes of Martin Keller, her and Serpell before she retired, we dragged them down and asked them questions. [00:48:30] Is this crown? You know, um, Endodontists you know, Rachel, she popped down [00:48:35] and help us out with some of the patients because I haven’t done dentistry for proper dentistry [00:48:40] since early 88. So I’ve done [00:48:45] lots and lots of wisdom teeth, lots of operating, lots of, you know, maybe some bits and pieces, but but [00:48:50] not not general dentistry as we know it. So going back to your question, that [00:48:55] team basically opened up my eyes. It was one of the best things, probably one of my biggest achievements work [00:49:00] wise, because you actually learn from we’re so siloed in our training. And [00:49:05] I think particularly dentistry, that’s one that is a big bugbear. We’re underappreciated and we’re very [00:49:10] siloed, and it’s partly our own fault a little bit. Um, the it [00:49:15] was fascinating. Payman I and even now I get a kick going, you know, [00:49:20] um, so obviously, um, there.

Payman Langroudi: Was some, some [00:49:25] examples of cases that came through. So yeah, so.

Tara Renton: One of my take home stories, which [00:49:30] I talk about sometimes in my lectures is never, ever judge a book by its cover. And I’ve always [00:49:35] thought that anyway, if you’re dealing with people, you never can. But this is a really good example. She [00:49:40] was Iranian. Interestingly, she was 23. She was drop dead [00:49:45] gorgeous. She was wearing all her matching Gucci boots, everything super.

Payman Langroudi: Super [00:49:50] uniform.

Tara Renton: Super, super. Yeah. Don’t don’t get me started. She had a gorgeous fiance [00:49:55] who would patiently sit in the waiting room. Now she’d had a wisdom tooth out. Very straightforward [00:50:00] and ended up with a lingual nerve injury, which was painful. And that’s what I did, my PhD. And that’s how I got into [00:50:05] pain. So and I remember, and I see a lot of these, I mean, I probably [00:50:10] advise like sometimes up to ten cases a week even, you know, of LA [00:50:15] or Endo or whatever. And I remember she, [00:50:20] um, she was broken and I just couldn’t figure out this young, [00:50:25] beautiful girl with seemingly everything. Why, why was her response [00:50:30] so brittle? Why was she so vulnerable? And, um, and I, [00:50:35] tried to try to work my magic. So, um, all through this multidisciplinary [00:50:40] care, we pre assess our patients. So we do a plethora of tests around looking at [00:50:45] anxiety, depression, PTSD is relevant in these cases. Sleep. Um, [00:50:50] so we look at OSA sleep disorders. Um, we look at prior abuse and neglect. [00:50:55] Um, and we look at some types of personality disorders that are associated with chronic [00:51:00] pain. Um, so, so this is something that I started doing and I actually, I [00:51:05] even did it in my PhD. I even did a chapter because I remember seeing [00:51:10] when I was doing my part time PhD, it was all around wisdom tooth surgery. Smartest move I ever did. If [00:51:15] you do a PhD, do it around something that you love doing and that you’re doing lots of at the time, [00:51:20] and you can actually make it happen without having to take five years or three [00:51:25] years out of your life and transplant somewhere else, then come back.

Tara Renton: So, so I was basically doing [00:51:30] patients after third molar surgery, morbidity and looking at nerve injuries. And what I couldn’t [00:51:35] understand is these patients had numbness and they had pain. And that would never that was never recognised before. [00:51:40] So we now notice neuropathic pain. We didn’t know then. That’s what it was. So I was thinking, [00:51:45] how can these people have numbness and pain at the same time? And that’s basically what nerve injury does. Sensory [00:51:50] nerve injury does. And if if you’re having breast surgery thoracotomy limb [00:51:55] amputation, there’s like a 30, 30 to 45% chance you will have that [00:52:00] pain for the rest of your life having those procedures done. It’s massive. Massive. Um, [00:52:05] any trauma, surgery, trauma, physical trauma, burns, radiation, chemotherapy [00:52:10] can all cause neuropathic pain as well as diabetes and M.S. and other things. So [00:52:15] I go this patient and it just, it didn’t compute for me because I’d seen quite a lot of patients and I [00:52:20] was, you know, done my PhD and felt fairly expert in the area. [00:52:25] And I kept thinking, why is she so brittle? And I, I, [00:52:30] you know, pre assess the patients. I knew she had some degree of anxiety, depression. I [00:52:35] knew she definitely had PTSD. I was about 70% of all patients with nerve injuries have PTSD, if they [00:52:40] particularly have the pain.

Tara Renton: And, um, and I sort of do [00:52:45] my very open lots of hugs, apologise, you know, on behalf of the profession. I’m really [00:52:50] sorry this has happened. You know, I know you’re warned about it. And it’s like, you know, [00:52:55] we all know when you walk across the road, you can get run over by a bus. No one sees this coming. And when [00:53:00] it happens, if you’re the wrong personality type, anxiety, depression and no sleep, it’s [00:53:05] going to hit you really, really hard and you may not actually get over it properly. So [00:53:10] I was thinking at that time and I said, look, I think you need to see my I saw her twice. And I said, I [00:53:15] think you really should see our clinical psychologists, you know, and [00:53:20] maybe, maybe the psychiatrist. Anyway, I got her back. [00:53:25] She wouldn’t she wouldn’t do it. So I got her back for the third time. And I, and I spent quite a long time, at least 45 [00:53:30] minutes with these patients. And this time I just said to her, look, I I’ve done my best [00:53:35] with you. And normally by this stage after one visit, most people understand become [00:53:40] a little bit more accepting, understand what the neuropathic pain is. It’s, it’s nerve injury that’s sending [00:53:45] signals to your brain like a text message. Emma Beecroft is great at this. And her lectures, [00:53:50] text messages is going to brain saying, pain’s still happening in my finger or in my tooth, but actually it’s [00:53:55] the brain that’s misrepresenting the signals going through.

Tara Renton: And, [00:54:00] um, she, she broke down again [00:54:05] and I just said to her, look, what can I do? And I just said, you know, what’s [00:54:10] happened? And she said, well, obviously it’s confidential, but [00:54:15] no one knows who she is. And um, she said, well, my parents brought [00:54:20] my sister and I to London when actually, you know, my parents brought [00:54:25] me to London when I was five years old When I was nine, [00:54:30] my parents had a difficult marriage. When I was nine, my mum had my baby [00:54:35] sister and a year after that, or 18 months after that, my [00:54:40] dad was killed on a bike on his bicycle outside Selfridges. So my mum was obviously [00:54:45] very dependent. I think she had one, quite some family members in [00:54:50] London and she looked to them to support this [00:54:55] patient, then got sexually abused by one of the uncles. And [00:55:00] obviously bigger stressor was to make sure that it didn’t happen to her younger sister. This [00:55:05] fell out. Her mother decided the best place for them to go back to Iran. So [00:55:10] they went back to Iran to be closer to other family members. Um, and [00:55:15] her, it didn’t go well. So she [00:55:20] obviously she had an English passport. She came back to England, basically cared for [00:55:25] her sister, brought her sister back so her sister could go to university in England and [00:55:30] she’d set up a very successful business. Um, put all this stuff behind [00:55:35] her, met her lovely fiance, goes the dentist, has a wisdom tooth taken [00:55:40] out.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Tara Renton: And has a nerve injury. And this is the proverbial straw on the camel’s [00:55:45] back. And she just could not pick herself up afterwards. And you think. [00:55:50] And I got I get goosebumps just recounting. I’ve got so many stories like this. You [00:55:55] know, she.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, interestingly, it took three visits to unlock that story. Well it’s. [00:56:00]

Tara Renton: Time. Yeah. It’s a time and trust.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And you talk about that a lot. You know, and, [00:56:05] you know, I talk about it a lot with wrong site surgery and bits and pieces. Because [00:56:10] as a specialist, you generally just see patients. And with increasing with the NHS demands on [00:56:15] time, you have such limited time to build trust with that patient. And actually trust really [00:56:20] underpins consent. Yeah. You know, effectively, you know, Henry Marsh who [00:56:25] Stephen referred to the neurosurgeon. He talks about he did a fantastic seminar [00:56:30] on consent at the Royal College of Surgeons a couple of years ago. And he basically says, you know, consent is [00:56:35] about trust. If my patient needs to understand what I’m doing when I’m taking a brain tumour out, they need to go and do 11 [00:56:40] years neurosurgery training and like another ten years post-grad. Then they’ll understand what I’m doing. [00:56:45] It’s trust. So that’s what I try and establish with my patients. I think [00:56:50] I am very empathic, I’m very interested in their stories. I have time for them to tell me [00:56:55] their stories. But for me, one of the key things is to have this pre-assessment. And for the life of me, [00:57:00] I don’t understand why. In general, medicine, dentistry and physio, beauticians, particularly [00:57:05] aesthetic aestheticians, I don’t know how I couldn’t work now [00:57:10] without having this. I’ve developed a web app with a partner with my PhD students, which basically [00:57:15] gives you all this summarised very simply. It’s a brilliant tool. Orofacial [00:57:20] pain facial pain.org. It’s geared for orofacial pain patients, [00:57:25] but it could definitely have a use just to see how difficult your patient’s going [00:57:30] to be or what a difficult time your patient’s having.

Tara Renton: And like you say, it’s a flip side [00:57:35] stress because of this or stress already before it. Yeah. So we know if you have high levels of [00:57:40] anxiety, depression, those same neurotransmitters and neural pathways, anxiety, depression, [00:57:45] stress, they’re the same as chronic pain pathways. So if you’ve got stuff going [00:57:50] on already in those pathways and you’ve got like this new nerve pain, the system just doesn’t [00:57:55] cope. And, and you’re much less resilient if you’ve had prior life abuse, neglect, [00:58:00] adverse events. And we know that your brain developed now is they [00:58:05] used to say women 2022 men 2224. They think it’s even later. [00:58:10] Now it’s like late 20s when your brain, your somatosensory system, your neuro system is [00:58:15] fully developed. If you have a critical life event during that development, something [00:58:20] happens. It makes you much more fundamentally at risk of chronic disease, [00:58:25] not just chronic pain, diabetes, cardiovascular. Yeah. So [00:58:30] those resilience, your resources are diminished significantly if you’re not sleeping, [00:58:35] if you’re anxiety anxious, you’re depressed, your resources diminished, you [00:58:40] can’t cope with this extra stuff that’s happening. So, so you cannot see a lot of patients, [00:58:45] I would argue, not just chronic pain patients without fundamentally understanding what’s going [00:58:50] on behind the patient, behind that very nice smiley face and a Gucci handbag when they turn [00:58:55] up to your clinic. Yeah. You need to understand what’s happening there, particularly, I think if you’re doing complex [00:59:00] elective work. So, you know, doing implant work, aesthetic work, I think you need to be able to understand [00:59:05] if that patient’s motivations are right.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. [00:59:10]

Tara Renton: And not falling into that trap, that horrible, horrible medical legal trap where [00:59:15] things go, go wrong of.

Payman Langroudi: The patients that you get sent, which are [00:59:20] the ones that are sort of most common and easy for you to clear [00:59:25] up and which are the opposite. Like.

Tara Renton: Oh, I love a toothache. Give [00:59:30] me a toothache.

Payman Langroudi: Toothache as well. You don’t the person doesn’t know. [00:59:35]

Tara Renton: I tell you, the toothache, the chronic toothache, pain. I’ve got some great examples.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so then you [00:59:40] work with the endodontist on that or.

Tara Renton: Well, no. Generally the tooth is. By the time we’ve seen one, the pain clinic [00:59:45] know it’s time for extraction. Yeah, yeah. I tell you, I love I really miss [00:59:50] my wisdom tooth list. It was just so nice. Pericoronitis. Take the tooth [00:59:55] out. Oh, I miss those days. Um. Yeah. No, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:00:00] you break them up into the kind of categories.

Tara Renton: Okay, so tooth related. What else? So you’ve got odontogenic [01:00:05] pain. Um, so there’s I cop International Classification of Orofacial Pain published in 2020. [01:00:10] Cephalalgia. I was part of an international team. We’re revisiting it at the moment. It’s [01:00:15] a faulty document. But the aim was there’s this massive conglomerate so that if you go to pain [01:00:20] meetings, which I’ve been to a lot in my life, you’ll have the rheumatologist and the headache neurologist arguing [01:00:25] who’s more important, who, which owns the most pain in the world. And, and [01:00:30] arguably, they both kind of like up their 40% ish. Um, [01:00:35] so, um, what was I going to say? We were talking about, uh, [01:00:40] I’ve lost my, lost my focus on that. What was the question?

Payman Langroudi: Different types of oh, [01:00:45] different types of pain.

Tara Renton: So I got basically, um, so the going back to headache neurologists, they, uh, [01:00:50] international Association of study of Pain iasp is massive. And basically they [01:00:55] have these big classification systems and the big classification system that touched on our region [01:01:00] was the International Headache Society and the International classification of headache [01:01:05] disorders HD. So they have that and they have like trigeminal neuralgia in there. They [01:01:10] have some neuropathic pain, uh, no acute pain. So so when [01:01:15] you’re doing this work, you’re trying to use the right diagnostics to make sure that the research is valid and robust. [01:01:20] But we didn’t really have a good classification system. We didn’t have one that is aligned to those. [01:01:25] So we’re talking the same language, and we didn’t have one that included acute pain. So a [01:01:30] chronic and acute. So we now have a system that’s acute and chronic. So there’s toothaches. [01:01:35] So odontogenic pain not just toothache. It’s um mucosa bone teeth but dental [01:01:40] alveolar salivary salivary gland. Yeah. And [01:01:45] then there’s muscle group which is mainly temporomandibular joint myogenous group. Then [01:01:50] there’s arthrogenic TMD joint pain. And then there is [01:01:55] the title. It’s basically neuropathic pain cranial nerve lesions of cranial [01:02:00] nerves leading to pain, which includes trigeminal neuralgia. Glossopharyngeal really [01:02:05] rare. But the most common thing is post-traumatic neuropathy, which is nerve injury, which is what I deal with. And that’s what I [01:02:10] did. My PhD in burning mouth, burning mouth, I think should be neuropathic burning. So we’ve [01:02:15] got neuropathic, then we’ve got, uh, neurovascular conditions mimicking headaches. So we [01:02:20] see loads and loads of migraine in the face that’s misdiagnosed and trigeminal [01:02:25] autonomic cephalalgias, which is cluster headaches. Loads and loads. And then the last one clinical [01:02:30] group is the um idiopathic which I hate, which includes at the moment [01:02:35] burning mouth, which I think should be neuropathic and actually persistent idiopathic facial pain and persistent [01:02:40] idiopathic or persistent dento alveolar pain. So intra-oral extra-oral [01:02:45] idiopathic persistent pain. Most of those have neuropathic features. So I’m hoping one day that [01:02:50] that number six will go. And then the seventh category is the axis two, which obviously is all important. [01:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Axis two.

Tara Renton: Which is psychological.

Payman Langroudi: Or psychological.

Tara Renton: So that’s all important because [01:03:00] you can’t. So so it’s a really nice classification.

Payman Langroudi: So out of those ones which are the hardest [01:03:05] to spot, which are the hardest to spot.

Tara Renton: The conditions, it’s the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Tara Renton: Just [01:03:10] like dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Tara Renton: You know, um, Richard was talking about doing? [01:03:15] I can’t remember. It was a simple procedure. If the patient’s really difficult. And I think [01:03:20] that’s something we underestimate, I think, well, I’m longer in the tooth than you are, but after a certain time [01:03:25] seeing patients, you get like an antennae, a feeling that something’s not quite [01:03:30] right here. Yeah. Um, you know, I think we should be much more out there thinking [01:03:35] about what personality? The hateful patient that again, Richard [01:03:40] alluded to and the Richard Groves paper in 1978. I talk about this. We’ve just published [01:03:45] a paper in um Dental update about complaints. Now, is it the patient or [01:03:50] is it the procedure or is it the. And a lot of it, you know, I, I’ve [01:03:55] had one complaint against me in my career that I know about that went to the GDC. This guy [01:04:00] complained about eight people at the dental school. So that’s the only complaint. And I remember [01:04:05] getting a letter, another long story anyway, from the GDC, didn’t even know the complaint had happened, saying the [01:04:10] complaints dismissed. And I just thought, oh my God, I didn’t know I had a complaint. And it was like [01:04:15] literally like, I think a year, the last year of retirement.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty good going in a 40 year [01:04:20] career in in pain.

Tara Renton: Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Pain. It wasn’t 40 years in pain, but it was 20 [01:04:25] years. But high risk area.

Tara Renton: It is. It is. And they’re very tricky [01:04:30] patients. So so for me, it’s not the condition that’s difficult. That’s the that’s [01:04:35] the low hanging fruit. I mean they’re difficult to manage. But you’re not managing [01:04:40] the pain. You’re managing the patient with the pain. And I think if you’ve got a complex patient, [01:04:45] which some of them are, I mean, I’m seeing private patients now mainly online, um, [01:04:50] and see some to face to face. Um, but you go through the history and [01:04:55] it is, it’s heart sink. I mean, there’s so much stuff, but often what’s [01:05:00] really relevant is what’s happened before. So, you know, another, another group of patients, the [01:05:05] idiopathic facial pain, which I hate and I don’t believe in it. So definition of pain, you can feel pain without [01:05:10] physical injury. Yeah, we all know that. When my daughter started at Surbiton School, [01:05:15] two days in, she had her mobile phone. I was in the middle of a busy clinic. The phone goes. [01:05:20] I’ve got on the wrong train. I’m thinking, oh, [01:05:25] God. So I said, calm down, darling. You know, which train are you on? Well, I’ve just left Kingston, [01:05:30] but I don’t know where it’s going. It’s not going home. And I said, well, can you look for a nice lady and [01:05:35] just let me speak on your phone? So find nice lady talking to the nice lady on the phone.

Payman Langroudi: Was she like 12?

Tara Renton: She was 11.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:40]

Tara Renton: And, um, and the woman’s going. Oh, yes. No, no, your daughter’s here. Yeah. No, it is the wrong train. [01:05:45] Don’t worry. I’ll. I’ll get her out on the platform and get her going in the right direction. Oh oh. Oh, no. And [01:05:50] I said what’s happened? She said, oh, I think your daughter ran back to get her bag. And the doors have closed. [01:05:55] So my daughter’s now on the wrong train with no phone, no one to talk to. And I remember that [01:06:00] even now, I get that visceral pain. Yeah, it’s a really good example. There’s loads of different [01:06:05] examples, but that’s how I, you know, you don’t need to have physical damage to have pain. So we [01:06:10] see patients who have decades or sometimes decades, but many, many [01:06:15] years of chronic pain, difficult patients, complex history, [01:06:20] lots of anxiety, depression. There’s a bit of PTSD going on there. And [01:06:25] you get chatting to them. And sometimes they’ve just had a terrible, terrible [01:06:30] early year life. But sometimes it’s something like the [01:06:35] husband dies. There’s this massive tax bill that they didn’t know about. The dog’s [01:06:40] ill. Their best friend’s had some bad news. It’s just these little red flags, [01:06:45] these tipping factors that just tips them. They can’t cope anymore. And actually we’ve got [01:06:50] I keep meaning to write it out. We’ve had nine patients, um, one man, [01:06:55] mainly mainly ladies and basically their pain went with grief counselling. Um [01:07:00] so that makes sense. It makes total sense that if you’re managing the patient holistically. [01:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: You must be really good at by now. You must be really good at sort of explaining [01:07:10] to the patient that the stress is a big factor.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But but I remember [01:07:15] I used to do one session a week with a guy called Doctor Jagger in [01:07:20] Cardiff.

Tara Renton: Yes, I remember that.

Payman Langroudi: He used to have a pain clinic as well. It was, it was kind of a TMJ [01:07:25] clinic. But but you’d get burning mouth syndrome and trigeminal neuralgia thrown in there. [01:07:30] And I remember as a young dentist, just really struggling with trying to get over [01:07:35] to the patient that, look, the number one cause of this issue is stress. Whereas [01:07:40] sometimes when you say to a patient, look, it could be that there’s something psychologically or stress going on, [01:07:45] a lot of times they think you’re dismissing them. Yeah. And just trying to get through that, that it’s a real [01:07:50] thing. Don’t worry about it.

Tara Renton: No, it’s really it’s really true. But I think there’s much more acceptance around [01:07:55] that now. I mean, when I’m talking to my patients, I’m talking about anxiety. [01:08:00] Obviously I’ve got fantastic measures. Now I can actually broach that subject. People are more open to that. [01:08:05] I always remember thinking when we started doing the psych screenings, we started off like hard copy. I [01:08:10] remember thinking, none of the patients are going to do this, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: To be fair.

Payman Langroudi: I’m talking a [01:08:15] 25 year old story today. The taboos are much, much easier.

Tara Renton: It’s very, very rare. [01:08:20] We get patients saying, actually, I don’t want to do your questionnaire because there’s too many personal questions there. [01:08:25] It’s very rare we have that. It’s more around technical issues that they can’t do the online thing.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:08:30] they.

Tara Renton: Can’t use a keyboard or something. But that’s not too often. But it’s just so important. [01:08:35] And I love it because I have my summary and I get my consultation [01:08:40] documents together. That’s how I’ve worked for the last 20 years, and I feel like I know what’s coming [01:08:45] through the door. I’m prepared for what’s coming through the door rather than spending like the first 15, [01:08:50] 20 minutes of the consultation, which would be much more difficult because you’re not ready for the [01:08:55] patient. You know, we had a little summary on the computer screen, anxiety up there, depression [01:09:00] up there. Ptsd, no sleep, you know. Um, it’s [01:09:05] just makes total sense to me that we should be doing that with all our patients. Yes. [01:09:10] And I’d love to see a day when we and, you know, arguably it’d be very interesting to look at personality disorders [01:09:15] because those are the people who are really difficult, difficult to manage. They have, you [01:09:20] know, with pain. They have to accept that they have to take tablets, they have to do other things like improve their [01:09:25] nutrition and their microbiome. Talk a lot around my patients around, you know, cheap [01:09:30] pain. You know, you don’t like taking tablets. Well, there’s evidence base for these vitamins [01:09:35] that will reduce migraine. There’s evidence base that actually, if you eat this kind of diet, you’re going to have [01:09:40] loads more dopamine going around serotonin, serotonin, you know, all those natural pain [01:09:45] endorphins you can make with a good diet.

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean? Which diet gives me more serotonin [01:09:50] and dopamine? So tell me immediately.

Tara Renton: Well, I can give you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a bit of an addict of those two [01:09:55] substances.

Tara Renton: All of my websites, all of my orofacial pain.org.uk. And [01:10:00] then there’s a specific one nerve injury. But and actually I’ve got a I do an annual I call them my [01:10:05] two virtual children, not my three real children. And I do an annual update. The annual update is happening in February. [01:10:10] So there’s a lot more stuff around nutrition going in there as well. And again, it was really refreshing hearing Richard talk about [01:10:15] that as well. And actually a couple of other much more. A microbiome is an amazing thing. And I’ve [01:10:20] had time now I’m retired. I cycle every morning. Um, I take much more care about [01:10:25] my tummy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it like kefir and this sort of stuff? Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: There’s a, it’s a mix of stuff. It’s [01:10:30] different colour, you know, the good old Zoe kind of stuff, you know, nuts, seeds.

Payman Langroudi: Several [01:10:35] different different.

Tara Renton: Vegetables.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Tara Renton: I haven’t, I haven’t touched red meat for years. [01:10:40] Have you got. I will do if someone serves it at a dinner party I’ll eat it. But yeah. Um cutting [01:10:45] down the alcohol, which is probably for me the toughest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I find coffee difficult [01:10:50] to like. Coffee. Giant amount of coffee. Do you?

Tara Renton: I used to, I went off [01:10:55] at all three pregnancies and red wine and I’ve never gone back there. So yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it. But coffee can be [01:11:00] really good for you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I heard.

Tara Renton: There’s some headaches that respond to coffee. You drink coffee last thing at night, [01:11:05] and it cures your headaches. So there’s some really interesting things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to the darker part of [01:11:10] the pod. Actually, before we move on. Yeah. It’s such a privilege as a [01:11:15] dentist to be able to alleviate pain. Mhm. Yeah. And we’ve all done it. Your [01:11:20] patient comes in toothache, you extirpate it, and you kind of find [01:11:25] a few canals. And, you know, when that patient gets home and things are warmed up, you’ve [01:11:30] done a you’ve done a great job. They’re your sort of detective work that you have to do that [01:11:35] when you finally get to a solution for someone like that [01:11:40] Iranian lady you were talking about, there must be a massive sense of of achievement. [01:11:45]

Tara Renton: Absolutely. Love it. Payman. And the problem with chronic pain is you don’t necessarily get the patient [01:11:50] out of pain.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Tara Renton: But you’ve dealt with all these holistic [01:11:55] issues. You’ve given them a clear diagnosis, A clear prognosis [01:12:00] and some possibilities, some tools that they can do. I love it. I do feel like [01:12:05] Inspector Clouseau on the clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds like it. Yeah.

Tara Renton: Because you’re literally at different pebbles, [01:12:10] different things.

Payman Langroudi: Lifting up different bits.

Tara Renton: So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s now get to the darker [01:12:15] part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. And now with your medico legal work, [01:12:20] you see loads and loads of mistakes. So I’d like to get into some of that. How, how, how do people [01:12:25] avoid the common things. But I also like to get into any clinical [01:12:30] areas that stand out. Your own clinical areas that stand out to you.

Tara Renton: Um, I’ve got [01:12:35] one not so funny for the patient and one. I mean, I, so [01:12:40] I remember my father taking out the wrong premolar on his best friend, his orthodontist [01:12:45] friend’s daughter. So for me, that was I remember him coming inside. Yeah. Wrong side. [01:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Tara Renton: Goodness. And and I remember he was like that pale grey colour before you have a coronary. [01:12:55] He was like that for like three days. So that’s been always with me. But I only reappeared when [01:13:00] I was involved in the lock slips and the wrong site surgery. And I’ve done it. I’ve taken out [01:13:05] four wisdom teeth on a 60 year old or 17 year old boy. I should have had just two wisdom teeth taken out. [01:13:10] Didn’t realise. Gah! Just no. Just just routine. [01:13:15] I’d written it up wrong. You know, I always wrote my own treatment plan. Never, never delegated anyone else on [01:13:20] the board in front of me with the X-ray checked. And I managed to do that. And I remember as [01:13:25] soon as I.

Payman Langroudi: Realised.

Tara Renton: Realised I just I and I went, obviously [01:13:30] the patient was taken to recovery and I went straight at his mother’s in the waiting room and I just said to look, I’ve [01:13:35] made, I’ve made a mistake. I’ve taken out all his four wisdom teeth.

Payman Langroudi: The uppers instead of [01:13:40] two.

Tara Renton: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I said, look, I’m really, really sorry. Um, [01:13:45] this is, you know, wrong. Um, I’ll give you my details. And and she [01:13:50] said, oh, thank God for that. She said, because we were telling the orthodontist said the dentist said that [01:13:55] he only needed two out, but actually we wanted to have four out because he’s going travelling next year. So I was [01:14:00] so lucky. But it’s very poignant because it stays with you. It’s just so [01:14:05] easily done. I mean, when I was others, I’ve written lots of papers around wrong site surgery [01:14:10] and and, and patient safety. What we do as dentists [01:14:15] is really, really difficult. And I know you’ve touched on this on quite a few podcasts. So [01:14:20] we as dentists, as you say, we’re individual practitioners. Yes. We have our dental nurse with us. We’re in [01:14:25] a room by ourselves most of the day, or none of our patients want to come and see us. They all know they’re [01:14:30] going to get pain, even a little, tiny bit. They’re going to get pain. Most patients actually [01:14:35] just even looking at the appointment card, if you take an MRI of their brain, [01:14:40] the amygdala, the limbic system is lighting up basically that, [01:14:45] you know, that non-physical pain is already happening in their brain when they get into the [01:14:50] car park. It’s almost actually happening before you get a needle or anything near them, and then [01:14:55] when they see the dental chair or they hear their drill and in the next door surgery, or they [01:15:00] see a syringe. Yeah, they’ve already got the pain. You can literally just [01:15:05] do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And they’ll have the pain. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, and you know, we, we [01:15:10] work in that environment. We are immune to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We’re normalised.

Tara Renton: And I have said, [01:15:15] you know, if I ever became dean of a dental school, which I haven’t and I won’t, I always said if I would change [01:15:20] dental training, I would say you sit down with your patient in a medical conversation, a medical consultation [01:15:25] model. You sit eye, eye to eye level in two chairs next to each other and have a conversation. [01:15:30] You do the consultation like that. You you do your consent [01:15:35] like that. You only put them in the dental chair to examine them, take them out again to carry on [01:15:40] the conversation about what you found, and then you put them back in the dental chair to do your treatment. And I honestly [01:15:45] think if we did that, patients would retain more, they’d hear more and actually probably be better [01:15:50] in a room without the dental chair because that’s a massive, massive trigger for many, many patients. [01:15:55] Can we give painless blocks, painless injections? I don’t [01:16:00] think so. I mean, with all the stuff I’ve written about LA around minimising nerve injuries, but more [01:16:05] about optimising pain management patients, you don’t need to give blocks very often. You use [01:16:10] infiltration dentistry. All Implantologists been doing that for years and you’re [01:16:15] smart. You know, you can give them topical local anaesthetic or a bit of ice. It’s probably [01:16:20] the most effective. Give them the articaine buccal articaine get it so that you’re blanching [01:16:25] the lingual mucosa without going, you know, lingually.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t push so hard on the plunger. [01:16:30] Right.

Tara Renton: Just gentle. I mean, and also, you know, it’s, [01:16:35] it’s just we’re immune. You know, we there’s no way that [01:16:40] you can do dentistry with an ID block painlessly. You can’t. The pulpal anaesthesia rates are [01:16:45] so poor. If that injection was invented now and said, oh, dentists, we’re going to be doing this from it, we’d laugh them [01:16:50] out of the room. It’s just it just doesn’t work well enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any tips and tricks on.

Tara Renton: I [01:16:55] have some good tips and tricks.

Payman Langroudi: Well, don’t do them.

Tara Renton: No, no, no, it’s not that. [01:17:00] So I’m, I’m not a great advocate of um of of the direct [01:17:05] Halstead. I rather do indirect. So you’re not going through the lingual nerve. In fact what I started doing in [01:17:10] my later years, if I was going to give a block is do a gow-gates. Go higher. They’re just as effective as a Halstead, [01:17:15] but they. They completely miss the lingual nerve. Okay. And the ID nerve. [01:17:20] So you just go higher up and you just follow along the the the top of the wisdom teeth [01:17:25] into the little fossa retromolar fossa and just go direct. You don’t have to be near the nerve. [01:17:30] We know that you can be a centimetre and a half away from the nerve. The local anaesthetic we use is so good, so [01:17:35] strong. It works. But you do need to wait ten minutes for a block to work for the optimum [01:17:40] pulpal anaesthesia, which is another reason why it’s so short.

Payman Langroudi: Ten minutes, ten minutes.

Tara Renton: And if you’re a [01:17:45] patient or a red haired patient or an anxious patient, which most of them are, could [01:17:50] take up to 20 minutes to get optimal pulpal anaesthesia from an IDB, which is why [01:17:55] they’re so rubbish.

Payman Langroudi: Why, oh why do they?

Tara Renton: Because there’s lots of theories. It [01:18:00] might be an enzyme thing. It might be laxity. Laxity of the connective tissue, a bit like in pregnancy. They [01:18:05] don’t really know. But they’ve got a really high resistance to local anaesthetic. Um [01:18:10] poor things with all the other stuff that they have to deal with.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so in general you’re saying go a little bit higher [01:18:15] than you think.

Tara Renton: Well, the first thing was don’t give an inferior dental block [01:18:20] unless you have.

Payman Langroudi: To, unless you have to.

Tara Renton: So I would do infiltration dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. [01:18:25] Articaine.

Tara Renton: Articaine. Buccally. Yeah. Um, the, the anterior mandible is [01:18:30] very porous, so it works brilliantly here. Don’t stick it into the mental nerve. Don’t go anywhere near nerves. [01:18:35] Mhm. Um but the, but the lingually, the mandible is very porous. So what [01:18:40] you can do is you can give your I used to say get a cartridge of articaine and do [01:18:45] in front and back of the tooth, go slightly higher up. So you blanch the lingual mucosa. [01:18:50] And then if you need to go in, if there’s still pulpal sensitive, you can give a lidocaine [01:18:55] and not know only if you’re doing extractions. Never give in to ligamental unless just [01:19:00] infiltration. Okay, but often you don’t need to do that. If you’ve got a polycytic tooth or [01:19:05] a big zit somewhere like a big acne spot or any inflammation in the trigeminal system, [01:19:10] your sodium channels will be absolutely, um, sensitised. So that’s [01:19:15] another reason why your your local anaesthetics not working. So give them ibuprofen, solubility, ibuprofen, [01:19:20] as long as they can take it about 20 minutes before the giving the local anaesthetic and that will optimise [01:19:25] your local anaesthesia because it’s basically reducing the sodium channel hyperactivity. Old [01:19:30] stuff. Ken Hargreaves, 1980s champion, Endodontist [01:19:35] pharmacist, dean of Houston dental school wow. Mega guy. It’s all out there. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Tara Renton: So a lot of this stuff infiltration and you’ll have much more comfort [01:19:45] for the patient. There’s much nicer injection to have. Much more effective pulpal anaesthesia. [01:19:50] And I just don’t know why we’re not doing more and more of that. And if you probably the patients you have to give [01:19:55] a block for would be a complex prosthodontics. If you’re doing long procedures, [01:20:00] you can top it up like you would in an IDB in the old days. Um and possibly [01:20:05] endo. Um, and the endodontic is actually probably the best [01:20:10] trained of all of us in managing, uh, managing postoperative [01:20:15] pain. I just operative pain.

Payman Langroudi: In general, pain in general.

Tara Renton: It’s a big part of their training [01:20:20] program. I mean, going back to that, you know, again, so many [01:20:25] things, but in vets get something like 40 hours of pain [01:20:30] training. Really medics for [01:20:35] six.

Payman Langroudi: That’s crazy. Dentists none.

Tara Renton: Half [01:20:40] an hour if you’re lucky.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: It’s bad.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And it was and I hadn’t realised, you know, [01:20:45] Richard was talking about what a stressor it is for a lot of people doing DBS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Tara Renton: Well it [01:20:50] shouldn’t be.

Payman Langroudi: I took, I took five years off when we started the company and [01:20:55] then my wife got pregnant. And then I went back part time after that. And [01:21:00] after five years of not giving an ID block, I had massive stress.

Tara Renton: I’m not surprised. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: My first. But actually something had happened. I’d forgotten something that they [01:21:10] started. I was started becoming not very good at ID blocks after [01:21:15] five years off. And I.

Tara Renton: Think you’re a bit more just a bit more critical.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. But I just [01:21:20] remember going back to my wife and saying, let’s talk about this. How do you do it? Because [01:21:25] I don’t remember having a problem before.

Tara Renton: It’s waiting. It’s waiting. That’s all it is. [01:21:30] It’s waiting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So in private industry, it’s very easy to wait because I take that time to talk [01:21:35] to the patient and that’s the best thing you can do anyway. Talk to the patient in NHS. They do the other thing sometimes. [01:21:40] I don’t know if it’s still a thing. Wait in the waiting room? Yes. That used to work very well.

Tara Renton: My dad [01:21:45] did these two surgeries next.

Payman Langroudi: To each.

Tara Renton: Other.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that used to work very well, didn’t it? I guess that’s why [01:21:50] those patients were properly anaesthetised. Um. I can’t see being able to do [01:21:55] that in private anymore, though. No, no.

Tara Renton: No. I think it’s probably not. Not possible.

Payman Langroudi: And how [01:22:00] do you how do you manage the wrong site surgery? By putting protocols [01:22:05] in where two people are checking at a time.

Tara Renton: You know, you you can’t take the wrong brain out and you can’t take [01:22:10] the heart out. Wrong heart out. Because obviously you’ve got one of those kidneys. It’s possible, you know, [01:22:15] and limbs it’s possible and lungs it’s possible. But um, dentistry, we’ve got [01:22:20] four quadrants and we’ve got two dentitions. So honestly, it’s like tiger country. Yeah. [01:22:25] And um, as my, you know, my dear old dad used to say, shit happens. And I say that a lot [01:22:30] at work and I to my patients and to, you know, um, play with [01:22:35] fire. You’re going to get burnt sometimes. It doesn’t matter how many protocol wise.

Payman Langroudi: What do you suggest? [01:22:40] What did when you did the work and decided.

Tara Renton: Oh, I see, well, the loxp stuff. Yeah. [01:22:45] No, it’s um it’s out there. It’s a big committee. The Royal College of Surgeons and we [01:22:50] did specialist locks for each domain. So a lot of it’s around checklists and [01:22:55] just, you know, making sure that your radiograph is, is labelled correct, labelled correctly. [01:23:00] Obviously it’s on screen now so it’s less likely to happen.

Payman Langroudi: That got me. I draw the wrong side.

Tara Renton: That’s [01:23:05] you see that happens a lot. And I think one of the key things is if you’re doing the surgery, the onus is [01:23:10] to you the medical legal. Even if the anaesthetist messes up, it’s still the surgeon’s problem. So you [01:23:15] just have to plan and be clear. But also just make [01:23:20] sure, put your plan, you know, up somewhere on a piece of paper and [01:23:25] you check with your nurse and a nurse. A dental nurse twice has stopped me doing wrong site surgery [01:23:30] really. And that’s, you know, talking about having your nurses. I always say, if you’ve got a really [01:23:35] good nurse, they’re good enough to be a dentist. And they should be. I think they should [01:23:40] be able to do it, to be honest. But anyway, I just think having that team approach [01:23:45] and people being able to speak up, that’s such a good sign that, you know, my couple [01:23:50] of times Dental have said actually, um, Tara, your and you know, I’m never Tara, [01:23:55] I’m think your forceps are on the seven or the six.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness [01:24:00] me.

Tara Renton: It’s fantastic. Why wouldn’t you want that in your team?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. [01:24:05] Of course. So for instance, in black box thinking that yeah, they found one of the big [01:24:10] crashes, famous ones, uh, Canary Islands. There was [01:24:15] a massive plane crash where one plane went straight into another one on the runway. And just [01:24:20] before it was it was a very famous captain. Yeah. Just before [01:24:25] he said, he said, okay, full power ahead. Yeah. And the first officer who was a junior [01:24:30] said something like, sir, are you sure there’s a plane? And then there was this muffle [01:24:35] of him saying that. Yeah. And then the plane went forward and smashed. And then they made [01:24:40] a protocol with pilots of this sort of like.

Tara Renton: Listen.

Payman Langroudi: Whistle blowing kind of [01:24:45] that if you as a junior, if you see a senior doing something there [01:24:50] and then speak up and, and, and, and, you know, he was too scared to really say it. [01:24:55]

Tara Renton: Yeah. Well, the protocol, you know, our student protocol now is you check and recheck. So you [01:25:00] make sure you’ve got the right, you know, you double check your notes, you double check you’ve got the right patient. You double check you’ve [01:25:05] written the right treatment plan up there. Um, you, um, when you’re giving the local anaesthetic you check with [01:25:10] your nurse. I’m doing the right side. Yeah. Yeah. And when with your nurse again you say right, I’m taking out the lower right [01:25:15] six and I’m putting my forceps on the lower right. Six and it’s all with your, [01:25:20] with your, with your dental nurse or your or your. So it’s a, it’s a team [01:25:25] team work. They have to have that confidence to be able to speak up.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about teaching [01:25:30] in Kings and you’ve seen generations of, of dentists go through. Um, [01:25:35] can you tell? Pretty early on who are going to be the stars? Um.

Tara Renton: Um. [01:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: What about what about the, the teaching itself. I mean, we’re [01:25:45] about to do this event. You should come, by the way, we’re about to do an event at Ministry [01:25:50] of Sound. Oh, are you a Dental conference at Ministry of Sound?

Tara Renton: Fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:25:55] but where that comes from? Yes. Is that particularly post-COVID? [01:26:00] I feel like Dental education, if we’re going to get up out of our homes [01:26:05] and out of our jobs and come somewhere. Yes. That that there needs to be something about going [01:26:10] somewhere that makes that makes sense to that, you know, it’s got to be either super fun or [01:26:15] you’ve got to meet people who you’re going to network with later on, and it’s going to work. Something [01:26:20] different has to happen. I mean, you’re standing on a stage presenting a lecture. You might as well be on the on [01:26:25] the other end of a computer in California presenting a lecture, you know. Um, but what [01:26:30] are your reflections on the course, the Dental course itself. Um, and. [01:26:35]

Tara Renton: It’s, it’s a frustration because, um, like a lot of people, I, and [01:26:40] again. I’ve heard you talk about this on previous podcasts. Um, I [01:26:45] don’t think they, the Dental students come out ready cooked. I mean, there’s more and more, more and more [01:26:50] emphasis on I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re just psychologically, they’re [01:26:55] an interesting generation. Obviously, I’ve got three kids, so they’re very anxious about things, very [01:27:00] self-critical, very fearful of doing anything wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Especially this this generation, anxious, [01:27:05] high achievers, the ones because dentistry is much harder to get into now.

Tara Renton: Well, and that arguably [01:27:10] I would just say that. Are we selecting the right people? I think we need empathic listeners. [01:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: Empathic carpenters.

Tara Renton: Yes. Well, not just that, but but no, you [01:27:20] it’s the empathy is the most important thing. And I think about being patient. I mean, my [01:27:25] whole career has been patient centred and very, very patient centred. And I just think actually [01:27:30] a better qualification for people coming into healthcare would be that they volunteer or they [01:27:35] do a year, not national service, but a year working and helping in a hospital or an old people’s [01:27:40] home or kids nursery.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the requirements.

Tara Renton: I would love that to [01:27:45] happen. I’ve been saying that for years. I think that would tell us more and also would tell the kids more whether [01:27:50] they actually made for that particular, you know, and you need a variety [01:27:55] of people. You need a variety of people to make up a team. But dentistry, as in general, dental practice [01:28:00] is very much you and the dental nurse. Yeah. Um, whereas in other domains [01:28:05] of working in a dental team, multidisciplinary teams, you need [01:28:10] different personalities. You need someone who’s going to make sure the T’s are crossed and the i’s are dotted.

Payman Langroudi: But if [01:28:15] you, if you were queen of the world and you could redesign the dental course, which bits would [01:28:20] you take out to to include these bits that you want to put in?

Tara Renton: I think I’d take [01:28:25] out quite a lot and put a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so, so [01:28:30] the traditional, like, would you take out things like biochemistry? I would, I.

Tara Renton: Would love I, [01:28:35] I think at the element of that definitely. Yeah, I would love to see dentists. You know, one of [01:28:40] my ambitions, which never came to fruition was I’m very jealous of Richard’s new development, I have [01:28:45] to say, is.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Tara Renton: To have like a 1012 surgery high street [01:28:50] unit that teaches students and postgrads. [01:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Tara Renton: Um, and, and one day it’s pros, one day it’s oral surgery, one day [01:29:00] you can still do this.

Payman Langroudi: You could still do this.

Tara Renton: I’d love, I’d love to do I think oral surgery is so [01:29:05] stressful and so difficult for the students. That whole concept of. And it’s a horrible [01:29:10] thing to do what we do to our patients. I started saying, as dentists, you know, we’re, as [01:29:15] you say, dealing with patients who don’t want to see us. They know they’re going to get pain. [01:29:20] The trigeminal nerve basically has a one way, one ticket transfer [01:29:25] to the limbic system. So if you’re in threat of having pain to this area [01:29:30] or having painted this area. Your brain is like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Tara Renton: On fire.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And [01:29:35] that’s what we do in dentistry. We work in the try the most difficult nerve in the whole body. That’s [01:29:40] basically amplifying all the stress and everything going on in our head related [01:29:45] to pain. And we just we do it on awake patients. I mean, [01:29:50] did that happen because of barber surgeons? Barber surgeons took out teeth. Dentists [01:29:55] invented GA and let them blooming surgeons run away with the GA. So all these fancy surgeons just [01:30:00] operate on the sleep people. I know there’s it’s changing, thank goodness. And that’s partly due to chronic pain [01:30:05] actually, because we know that a lot of the post-surgical chronic pain, neuropathic [01:30:10] pain is actually probably to do with central sensitisation. So if you get very, [01:30:15] very intense pain transmission to the brain, particularly the para ductal grace just [01:30:20] sits below the amygdala, that area sensitised. And that probably has a memory of pain. So if [01:30:25] you block it with local anaesthetic like we do in dentistry doesn’t happen. So if you go and have [01:30:30] breast surgery, limb surgery, still big enough anatomical areas, you [01:30:35] can’t block it off with local. But the anaesthetist will give strategic local anaesthetic.

Payman Langroudi: For that reason.

Tara Renton: To [01:30:40] minimise chronic pain. Isn’t that fantastic? They’re taking a lesson out of dentist. We do that for years. You [01:30:45] know, I would argue that a lot of stuff we do, patients should be sedated. I don’t think it’s [01:30:50] fair. A lot of the stuff we do that they’re awake. But going back to the, to to rearranging dentistry, [01:30:55] I think a lot of it should be like my grandpa did more of an apprenticeship. Still think you [01:31:00] need the academic knowledge, not to the extent of forays [01:31:05] or four nines or whatever it is these days. I don’t think you’re selecting the right people. I [01:31:10] did actually.

Payman Langroudi: You must have been on the selection board for some time now. Um, you [01:31:15] know, getting.

Tara Renton: Specialists never, never for undergraduates. Oh, really? Yeah. Too busy teaching [01:31:20] and doing the research. I mean, the whole system is ridiculous at university because the [01:31:25] kudos and the money comes with the research. Still not with the teachings, the teachings. Always trying [01:31:30] to get the patients in, trying to deal with the NHS managers who say we can’t be arsed having the [01:31:35] dental students in. They don’t do enough work. We’re basically giving away our our salary, our [01:31:40] income. They don’t want. So you’re fighting all these levels that are running. The undergraduate program was [01:31:45] so stressful because you want more patients in. You want your students doing stuff. [01:31:50] These wonderful people who come in and give up their salary in clinical practice to come and teach our salt [01:31:55] of the earth. Not appreciated, not dealt with very well. And [01:32:00] it’s such a frustration. So I would love it that you have a nice practice [01:32:05] where people want to be there, the teachers want to be there, and then they give the kids a good [01:32:10] time, good experience, and I’d love to see that. And I don’t think that happens an awful lot. I’m [01:32:15] quite cynical or critical about the haptic stuff, and I don’t think that prepares [01:32:20] people for dealing with patients. And as nearly every one of your [01:32:25] podcasts that I’ve listened to, it’s all about the patient. It’s all about the patient relationship. If things are going to go well, [01:32:30] you know, I shouldn’t say this. You know, if your patient loves you, you can do shit dentistry. [01:32:35] But that’s not what we’re advocating.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but it’s important. Your patient can love you and you can do brilliant.

Tara Renton: And [01:32:40] you have a better day if you have your patients, your dental nurse liking you and your patients liking you. Yeah, you’re going to have a [01:32:45] much better day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Tara Renton: So and that’s down to, you know, um.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:32:50] so, so changing the course, you take out lots of the basic science I’m taking.

Tara Renton: I would.

Payman Langroudi: Do, you’d [01:32:55] put in a lot more on relationships.

Tara Renton: I’d put in a lot more face to face, hands on. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Work as well.

Tara Renton: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Communication.

Tara Renton: Absolutely. And psychology. [01:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: And I’d even say business, you know, like.

Tara Renton: Business should.

Payman Langroudi: Be the basics of business.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I think it should [01:33:10] be in school, let alone dental school. Yeah. They should, they should talk. I was going through my daughter. [01:33:15] She’s she’s only at GCSE level. Yeah. Yeah. But you forget you know, GCSE maths [01:33:20] still quite hard. Like I couldn’t, I couldn’t remember how to do this stuff. I was going, yeah, [01:33:25] you know, differentiation or something. I remember the word.

Tara Renton: I gave up trying to help my kids with [01:33:30] their homework a long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I referred her to ChatGPT at me. But [01:33:35] but then but then this is what I’m saying, that going to quite complex mathematical sort of thing, but [01:33:40] no idea how to apply for a mortgage, like a life, like a very important.

Tara Renton: Life bank account.

Payman Langroudi: Open a bank [01:33:45] account, money in and money out, these sort of simple things, simple.

Tara Renton: Things. The education system [01:33:50] is not fit for purpose either.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, Elon’s got an idea. I’m calling him like he’s my best [01:33:55] friend. But Elon Musk got an idea of, you know, in schools you have sets.

Tara Renton: Yes. [01:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: But he’s talking about sets that you can move within years. So, for instance, [01:34:05] this nine year old could be in 14 year old physics class. But being [01:34:10] seven year old maths, not maths.

Tara Renton: He’d probably be I would have been kindergarten English [01:34:15] and like probably if I was lucky O-level maths. But yeah, no, I [01:34:20] get that.

Payman Langroudi: So you wrote all these papers. How did you get over your English and dyslexia [01:34:25] and all that to write papers?

Tara Renton: My husband still jokes about champion, not [01:34:30] shampoo paper, what I wrote. It’s my first ever publication. Oh [01:34:35] my God, it was hard. Looking at a blank piece of paper is the most difficult thing. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Um, and I, but I’m a massive reader now as well. I love reading, [01:34:45] which I, you know, I never did before, but I love reading.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it, what’s your favourite book?

Tara Renton: Uh, [01:34:50] my favourite book would be Patrick Suskind perfume.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a.

Tara Renton: Novel. [01:34:55] It’s a novel. Yeah. I do like quite dark, dark things. [01:35:00] So, um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what about your favourite Dental book?

Tara Renton: Favourite [01:35:05] Dental book? Well, I love Dental update. Oh, yeah. Not just because I’m on the editorial [01:35:10] board. Because actually, because I don’t do routine dentistry. I love reading those articles and I love [01:35:15] the editorial board meeting. They’re the best people. They’re the best and.is there as well. Such [01:35:20] talented people.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Tara Renton: Just Leaders o. But also leaders in their fields are so [01:35:25] inspiring. So I love that because it’s just nice for me to understand, you know, it’s [01:35:30] so technical and so, so different than what I was taught.

Payman Langroudi: You on social media.

Tara Renton: Yes, I am. [01:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram and all that.

Tara Renton: I am, yeah, but not as you know me. So Instagram is [01:35:40] all stuff that I make. Oh, really creative stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Okay. And what do you [01:35:45] make?

Tara Renton: Oh. All sorts. I’ll make anything. I love a project. Always like a project. [01:35:50] So the last thing I made was my two mad Scottish friends who had us around for [01:35:55] New Year’s Eve dinner party. They loved dressing up and, um, [01:36:00] they have these mad selection of, of Christmas hats like turkey upside down [01:36:05] and all sorts of things. And I thought I had some fabric left over because I make these [01:36:10] really ornate Christmas stockings for gifts for people when I’m in the mood. And I had this fabric left over and [01:36:15] I thought, actually, I could make them some really good crowns. So I made these fantastic crowns for them, for Lindsay and Nigel, [01:36:20] and they were great. But anything I can make jewellery. I made my husband’s [01:36:25] wedding ring. I made cufflinks, make jewellery, make clothes, [01:36:30] pay my, pay my way through dental school, making evening dresses and party dresses for [01:36:35] the 80s.

Payman Langroudi: If Etsy was around back then, you’d be a millionaire.

Tara Renton: I would have been killed. I would have not done dentistry. I would have [01:36:40] walked away. I doubt it somehow.

Payman Langroudi: And did you ever get involved in sort of the digital [01:36:45] side of dentistry, or. I guess.

Tara Renton: I have.

Payman Langroudi: Just not.

Tara Renton: The web app is, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: No. [01:36:50] So yeah, my sort of chosen course would be probably, well, more psychology [01:36:55] because I love it, but um, MIT in health, I’d love to do a course sort of around [01:37:00] AI and health.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so listening to you now, I feel like just [01:37:05] endless curiosities, like a massive, massive, like [01:37:10] it’s a, it’s a prerequisite to becoming someone like you.

Tara Renton: I think it [01:37:15] helps. It makes the journey much more fun.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Um, yeah. No, [01:37:20] I think it’s a very, very cool thing I would say actually, and just interested in lots of things. And I [01:37:25] belong to the RSPB. I’ve just been to India. My husband’s involved in tiger conservation. [01:37:30] So big animal lovers and um, love nature. [01:37:35] I cycle every morning in Richmond Park when I can, so I have my own safari every morning. All [01:37:40] the birds.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Tara Renton: Took a video of the stags this morning, crossing the road in front of me.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:37:45] what did you say was the lowest point? Was it this bullying part incident, like [01:37:50] in this 40 year journey?

Tara Renton: Yes. Um, I was sexually [01:37:55] abused. 11. That was pretty tough. Didn’t tell my mum until about five years [01:38:00] ago. That was horrible. And that’s probably part of my personality as well, just [01:38:05] digging my way out of that. So that was pretty awful. Um, and [01:38:10] then yeah, the bullying at at that, that particular job was tough actually.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel [01:38:15] like one mirrored the other? Like in your head?

Tara Renton: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [01:38:20] does, you know, like sometimes.

Tara Renton: The one I wasn’t there out of choice. And the second [01:38:25] one, the bullying scenario I was going to into work every day. So some submissive, [01:38:30] you know, submitting to this horrible behaviour. So that’s slightly different. And that [01:38:35] made it harder in a way. Um, yeah. So yeah, no sort [01:38:40] of character building as my mom says, tough, tough love.

Payman Langroudi: If you like. So [01:38:45] then now going forward, basically retired, but [01:38:50] you’re working. You’re working. Yeah. On, on the legal side and.

Tara Renton: Uh, not doing much. I’d [01:38:55] love to do more. I’d love to do more medical legal actually. So I’m just, um, um, [01:39:00] involved in writing an opinion paper, uh, for the BDJ [01:39:05] on the, uh, Winterbottom case. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I’ve got [01:39:10] Irish is involved and he honestly, he’s been through the wringer and he. It’s completely. [01:39:15] Judgement seems very odd. Doesn’t seem right. So [01:39:20] I’m very, very interested in exploring that from a clinical and legal perspective. [01:39:25] So Linda Cruz is doing that with us. Excellent. That’s something I want to pursue. Again, I’d love [01:39:30] when I retired I thought I might do a law degree actually. Really. I don’t I’m not I’m [01:39:35] not a thing. I’m going to do that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that course at Cardiff that’s like law for doctors or [01:39:40] something like that.

Tara Renton: I might look into that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: I find it fascinating because they think in such a different way. [01:39:45] Yeah, yeah. Totally different way. So I’m not sure I get.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the most impressive professionals I’ve come across are lawyers. [01:39:50]

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Some of the most annoying as well. Yeah. Some of the most impressive.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [01:39:55] yeah, I’ve noticed that along the way. Yeah. So do you, do you miss the rough [01:40:00] and tumble or are you.

Tara Renton: I miss the I miss my team at work. Yeah. Not seeing them, I [01:40:05] miss operating. Yeah. Um. I’m still seeing patients. That’s still a challenge. I’m [01:40:10] still Invited all over the world to. Lecture won’t be going on for much longer because I won’t be [01:40:15] current for much longer. Um. I’m still. I’m writing a paper for [01:40:20] BMJ Practical Neurology. So breaking down the silos around facial [01:40:25] pain, teaching neurologists about toothache, basically. Um, I’ve [01:40:30] got a load of I help still. I’ve got two clinical fellows who want to do PhDs. [01:40:35] I can’t supervise them, sadly. Crazy thing. Retire, return [01:40:40] only you’re only allowed to return for two years at King’s. I mean, the different universities have different [01:40:45] regulations. I’d love to be doing more. You know, I wouldn’t be charging them anything like free [01:40:50] pro-bono. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: No, not even that.

Tara Renton: No, no. Can’t do [01:40:55] it. I don’t know the regulations.

Payman Langroudi: People like.

Tara Renton: I don’t I obviously don’t want people hanging around [01:41:00] like a bad smell. And I’m very aware of that. I don’t want to do that either. You know, I really don’t. I want to [01:41:05] not hang around and be one of those people in the room think, oh God, he’s still here.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:41:10] to mind if I ask you? Like, what was the lecture? Or a lecturer? Yes, that [01:41:15] that blew you away.

Tara Renton: Um. Probably two. So when I was a dental [01:41:20] student, um, we had, uh, Mark Ferguson, I think it was who did the, um, [01:41:25] discovered that crocodiles in utero didn’t scar when they repaired their cleft lip and palate. [01:41:30] I know it’s weird, but I love that. Yeah. And then my probably seminal lecture was [01:41:35] listening to Irene Tracy, who’s now provost or vice provost at Oxford [01:41:40] University. She is a pharmacist, but did some of the seminal work around [01:41:45] pain perception using MRIs, which is where I ended up. I was hoping to work with her, [01:41:50] but she never came to London and we nearly did. Um, but I’ve done a huge amount of MRI work, [01:41:55] and on that front, I’m very much involved in developing MRI neurography. [01:42:00] So we can see nerves for the first time in imaging, which is very exciting.

Payman Langroudi: How does [01:42:05] that work?

Tara Renton: It’s basically clever mathematicians. So basically you have an MRI. [01:42:10] Um, just a normal MRI, which is fantastic. But what you do is you have a [01:42:15] specific coil that actually, um, accentuates the concentration [01:42:20] of the, of the MRI in those areas. And um, Frederick van [01:42:25] de Crusnes, one of my star PhD students, I’ve had 14 PhD students over the years. They’re all my work [01:42:30] babies. They’re amazing. He, he developed this. And you can actually see all the cranial [01:42:35] nerves on an image. So and you can see if the, for example, lingual nerve is broken, if [01:42:40] it’s swollen, if it’s hyperintensive inflamed. So we’re just developing that first in Manhattan [01:42:45] at King’s at the moment. So they’ve got it up and running in a few centres in the in the US [01:42:50] and a couple of centres in Belgium. But first here, which is really exciting. [01:42:55] So that’s a project that I will not let go because I just think it’s fascinating. It’s going to be a whole new science. [01:43:00] And we’ve never looked at nerves before, never been able to do ophthalmologists, headache [01:43:05] neurologists. They are gagging for this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s.

Tara Renton: Fantastic. Cancer surgery [01:43:10] planning. It’s amazing. Um, and what the clever guys. So so basically [01:43:15] the and we also use contrast. So gadolinium, which helps obviously [01:43:20] visualise the nerves. Um, so what you can see is and what they’ve done is they’ve basically sort of refined [01:43:25] the, the mathematical algorithms. So you can actually differentiate nerve tissue from fat. Um, [01:43:30] and obviously water content for other arteries and bits and pieces. So the scans [01:43:35] are developing that I’m working with the team at um Slam or um, IOP [01:43:40] in the Institute of Psychiatry Psychology. They’ve got a big central neuroscience neuroscience imaging [01:43:45] centre there, which is where I’ve done most of my research. So blessed, such interesting people, [01:43:50] so clever. And they’re basically developing an MRI scan that could do [01:43:55] bone arteries and nerve. So it’s really super exciting. So that’s one of the projects. My web app [01:44:00] is a big project. Um, I’d love to commercialise that. So it can actually be just take [01:44:05] a psych assessment of patients before you see them. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Should do that. [01:44:10]

Tara Renton: I’d love to do that.

Payman Langroudi: If it works, then the next step to do that I’d love to do that.

Tara Renton: And [01:44:15] then because I, one of my heartbreaking things around seeing patients for these many, many [01:44:20] years is delayed or wrong diagnosis. So many patients sit around some [01:44:25] unfortunately, with cancer, not too many, thank God. But then people, you know, they’ve had [01:44:30] all this dental work and they’ve actually got a migraine of v3 mandibular branch or maxillary [01:44:35] branch, or they’ve got a cluster headache type thing going on. Um. [01:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I spoke to someone.

Tara Renton: So many patients.

Payman Langroudi: Who said, you’re a dentist. I said, yeah, and [01:44:45] he said, I’ve got to ask you about this thing. Uh, trigeminal neuralgia.

Tara Renton: Everyone knows about neuralgia. [01:44:50] It’s the least common facial pain.

Payman Langroudi: So I said, yeah, what do you want to know? And he said, [01:44:55] I went through 12 years of going through different doctors until [01:45:00] someone said, this is what it is.

Tara Renton: And it was.

Payman Langroudi: Ten. It was ten, [01:45:05] and it had an operation to resect MVD.

Tara Renton: But [01:45:10] one of the few indications for surgery and.

Payman Langroudi: A tear came to his eye when he mentioned the name of the guy [01:45:15] who finally figured it out, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: No TN is we do see [01:45:20] it’s the least common diagnosis that we make very, very life impactful for [01:45:25] patients.

Payman Langroudi: Because the pain is severe. Right?

Tara Renton: Well, the pain is severe. You get either elicited or spontaneous. [01:45:30] Often around this area. It’s probably sodium. It’s inherited and [01:45:35] 18% of patients really onset spontaneous starts, usually 5060 year [01:45:40] olds. Yeah. Sort of almost equal distribution men and women. Um, and [01:45:45] uh, haven’t found the cause yet. Mvd basically peels of an artery [01:45:50] or a, or a vein off the stem of the nerve as it comes out, but still, we don’t really [01:45:55] understand how that works. But it’s the most effective treatment after medical treatment initially. Mhm. But if [01:46:00] you’re a pilot or a HGV driver. You can’t tolerate the medications because they just slow you down, slow [01:46:05] your responses. So but that’s I think that’s pretty well treated. There’s a guy called Cruccu [01:46:10] in Italy who’s the lead. He’s done some exceptional work around TN. So I think it’d [01:46:15] be unusual now. I mean all medics know about TN because they remember the trigeminal neuralgia case on their neurosurgery [01:46:20] ward round. So that’s the only oral facial pain that most medics know about. They all know about it. [01:46:25] And that’s frustrating to me because all that gets it’s always TNTNTN. But actually toothache [01:46:30] can mimic migraines, can mimic TN, can mimic all sorts of different conditions. [01:46:35] And then obviously post-traumatic neuropathy, nerve injuries is a biggie. Much bigger and [01:46:40] bigger than TN because you have you touch it, you get electric shock, you get mechanical allodynia or [01:46:45] thermal allodynia, which is a feature of that, of that condition. So that’s often misdiagnosed [01:46:50] as well. What about. So that’s what the web apps come about, is to try and develop a sort [01:46:55] of diagnostic app that will direct patients either to neurologists or to a dentist [01:47:00] or to ENT so they don’t end up going to an ENT surgeon having sinus washout and septal [01:47:05] deviation correction, and then being told that they’ve got, you know, cluster headache or going to [01:47:10] the neurologist and having five years of, of headache medication when they’ve actually got, you [01:47:15] know, tooth or embedded carious wisdom tooth that no one’s picked up on and [01:47:20] a long cone periapical.

Payman Langroudi: So is the least common. What’s the most common migraine?

Tara Renton: Migraine [01:47:25] is very, very common. So and migraine always generally in [01:47:30] most patients affects v1, v2, v3.

Payman Langroudi: All the way down.

Tara Renton: It does. And we forget that. [01:47:35] And there’s an increasing number of patients now that come to us who’ve got misdiagnosed pain. And actually [01:47:40] it’s migraine. So you can actually screen that’s part of our screening. It’s hit six. You can screen out migraines [01:47:45] very, very easily and find out if there are migraine.

Payman Langroudi: And has has bruxism increased. [01:47:50] And TMJ.

Tara Renton: Is not a pain condition and bruxism.

Payman Langroudi: Is not.

Tara Renton: There’s really good evidence [01:47:55] now that bruxism does not drive muscle pain and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really, really, really.

Tara Renton: So, you know, we’ve had patients [01:48:00] where they’ve got no teeth, like one millimetre of tooth tissue above their gingival level. Yeah. [01:48:05] No pain.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Tara Renton: So bruxism, there’s two there’s awake and sleep, bruxism, sleep [01:48:10] bruxism. Nocturnal bruxism, bruxism. Increasingly. Another inspirational lecture. [01:48:15] Danny. Danny Eccles. He’s a sleep [01:48:20] physician researcher. Adelaide. Incredible. And [01:48:25] um, his work is international based but they basically [01:48:30] showing that actually nocturnal bruxism is an activity that coincides with periodic [01:48:35] limb movements. So restless leg syndrome at night. Yeah. And actually it’s all to do with the arousal [01:48:40] phase of sleep. So it’s a neuromuscular phenomenon. It’s not stress. [01:48:45] Oh really? Yeah. And actually what you need to do, how you I mean stopping [01:48:50] restless leg syndrome. It’s the same old drugs we use for a lot of chronic pain conditions, relaxant, muscle relaxant drugs. [01:48:55] But actually you just need to protect the teeth and reassure the patient. Daytime [01:49:00] I definitely clench is probably stress related, but it doesn’t drive [01:49:05] pain.

Payman Langroudi: So to that, that bit of information that I have is, I guess, old information. [01:49:10]

Tara Renton: It is. I think it’s coming through. I mean, the other thing that’s very interesting as well, that I’ve published quite [01:49:15] a bit on recently is myogenous TMD. So muscle based jaw joint pain, a [01:49:20] lot of that is migraine.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Tara Renton: So you need to and again, [01:49:25] it’s something dentists should be doing routinely is if the patients presenting with a pain [01:49:30] just say, do you get headaches? Do you get migraines? And they know most patients will know [01:49:35] if they have a history or they currently get intermittent migraines.

Payman Langroudi: So much of it is going into that [01:49:40] functional medicine kind of that’s.

Tara Renton: Where.

Payman Langroudi: We should be interaction. That’s where we should be. Mouth body connection. [01:49:45] I wouldn’t expect that from someone coming from, you know, oral surgery, you know, but [01:49:50] you’re very much everything you’ve said is in that sort of.

Tara Renton: It is that’s where we need to be. [01:49:55] That’s the whole place we need to be to optimise the treatment for our patients. And [01:50:00] and that’s not what’s being taught, sadly. And it’s so much more interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:50:05] it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, professor. [01:50:10] Stay awake. Dame. Stop it. Please [01:50:15] don’t do that. Can I can I finish off with the usual questions where you ask the fantasy [01:50:20] dinner party? Three guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Tara Renton: Um, [01:50:25] I’ve got no name. Uh, so, um, [01:50:30] Atul Gawande, who’s the medic? The Indian American medic who was Obama’s medical [01:50:35] adviser, who’s done a huge amount around lots and lots of areas, [01:50:40] but he was Mr. Checklist. He was one of the first people to introduce the W.H.O. [01:50:45] checklist, which is now surpassed. But it’s I think it’s entered the culture of most.

Payman Langroudi: It speaks very [01:50:50] well as well.

Tara Renton: He’s a fantastic speaker. Yeah. Um, I think he was on, um, [01:50:55] Rory Stewart, wasn’t he? Uh, Campbell and Stewart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. Politics. [01:51:00] Politics. Leading. Leading. Yeah.

Tara Renton: He’s really good. Um. And then [01:51:05] I wrote an actress name down and I’ve had a mental block now.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was she in? [01:51:10]

Tara Renton: She was a jungle queen. Um, she was a sort of kick [01:51:15] ass woman. Didn’t take any prisoners. We were going back to the 1950s movies. I grew [01:51:20] up, my dad was a great movie buff. Um, Katharine Hepburn.

Payman Langroudi: Katharine Hepburn loved her. Okay.

Tara Renton: Trousers. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: Did her own thing, but in a nice way. Um, and [01:51:30] then, um, who else would I invite? [01:51:35] I mean, I don’t think Elon Musk would be. He is phenomenal. I don’t like him. He’s [01:51:40] not a nice person, but he’s phenomenal.

Payman Langroudi: He is I think on the net net you have to say he’s an asset. I [01:51:45] mean.

Tara Renton: Yeah I think I’d agree.

Payman Langroudi: With you. He could be a Nazi whatever whatever he is a right winger, [01:51:50] whatever he is. But if you look at what he’s done, you’ve got to say it’s so impressive. [01:51:55] Humanity’s moved forward. Yeah.

Tara Renton: It’s so impressive. And he talks about his busy. [01:52:00] I have a busy brain, which is why, you know, I don’t I have I don’t have when someone, a couple of people [01:52:05] have asked me if I have therapy and I’ve never done that, but I say my bicycles, my therapy. And [01:52:10] I learned that, you know, with long time back when really busy family [01:52:15] look back, I just can’t believe what we did, you know, spinning all those plates and doing everything. But [01:52:20] the one thing I did was I bought a second hand Brompton bike on eBay because [01:52:25] I was frustrated. I was getting no exercise. And it basically meant I could take it [01:52:30] everywhere and I could cycle between meetings, cycle to work as much as I could cycle home. And honestly, [01:52:35] I could have the shittiest day from hell. Want to kill everyone? Get on [01:52:40] the bike. Five minutes cycling from Denmark Hill to Vauxhall.

Payman Langroudi: Solve [01:52:45] it.

Tara Renton: And that’s what I learned. Actually. That’s probably.

Payman Langroudi: Some [01:52:50] lime bikes for that, but.

Tara Renton: No lime bikes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though there’s not much work going on. No, no. The [01:52:55] speed of acceleration. Yeah. No, but you’re right. And in winter it’s [01:53:00] harder, isn’t it? Yeah. In winter I don’t use them as much. No. And actually feel it, [01:53:05] you know. Oh do you. And somehow I make a point. You use 2 or 3 a day. Yeah. I’ll cycle here. [01:53:10] Cycle back, cycle wherever. I should make.

Tara Renton: A point of doing it more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: As I say in Norway, it’s not the [01:53:15] wrong weather. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Wrong place. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Tara Renton: Very much. I cycle snow, rain, everything. [01:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: You do, you.

Tara Renton: Get out. I love it, it just makes me feel.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. There is something.

Tara Renton: A dose of mindfulness. [01:53:25] Nature. Get home and I’m ready for the rest of the day. I love it so I don’t [01:53:30] I think Elon needs to do probably more cycling. I don’t know. He’d be less productive if he does more cycling. But it’d [01:53:35] be interesting to sit next to someone with that much of a busy brain, or maybe a bit of a misogynist, I don’t [01:53:40] know. I’ve had enough of those in my life, but.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a deathbed question.

Tara Renton: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lying [01:53:45] on your deathbed, surrounded by your dearest and [01:53:50] nearest and dearest many years from now. What three pieces of advice would you [01:53:55] leave for them and for the world?

Tara Renton: Stay curious. Probably? Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:54:00] seems.

Tara Renton: Clear. That’s my biggest joy. Um. Priorities. [01:54:05] Prioritise your friends and family. I’ve got eight girlfriends. [01:54:10] I wouldn’t be here sitting here now without my amazing husband. Three [01:54:15] kids. I’m incredibly proud of that. I haven’t fucked up completely. Um, [01:54:20] and the girlfriends we’ve seen each other through.

Payman Langroudi: Which era are they from? From [01:54:25] school, university, or.

Tara Renton: A couple I’ve known for 40 years.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh.

Tara Renton: Um. Uh, [01:54:30] yeah, about half over half of them I’ve known for 38, [01:54:35] 40 years. And then there’s a few new add ons that we met at antenatal [01:54:40] with our Firstborn’s 33, 33 years. I can’t believe I’m saying [01:54:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing like old friends. Nothing like old friends.

Tara Renton: So friends and family, I think, are really, [01:54:50] really up there. Curiosity. And I would say, stick to your guns. [01:54:55] If there’s if you’re principled, if I look back and think, I could have made some really dumb [01:55:00] decisions, like not doing medicine, I didn’t do it. I was right, I was very lucky because [01:55:05] oral surgery came in, you know, and then I. Yeah, no, stick to your [01:55:10] guns, you know, you know, know who you are. And, and if you have a goal, [01:55:15] just, just keep at it. And if you keep hitting a brick wall, just walk around that wall. Find a way [01:55:20] around that wall.

Payman Langroudi: What do you wish you were more like.

Tara Renton: Uh, [01:55:25] my husband.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense?

Tara Renton: Calm. Kind. [01:55:30]

Payman Langroudi: You seem calm.

Tara Renton: I am calm.

Payman Langroudi: You seem kind.

Tara Renton: I am kind.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:55:35] What is it? What is it you’re bad at? You know. That’s what I’m getting at.

Tara Renton: I think I, I have [01:55:40] I can have the element of irritating people. I don’t mean hating people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:55:45] what sense?

Tara Renton: Um, there’s a family joke really that I, you know, I’m ADHD [01:55:50] and. Yeah, I’m a bit busy. Mrs. [01:55:55] McHenry.

Payman Langroudi: From.

Tara Renton: Magic Roundabout. So yeah, probably. But [01:56:00] then that’s part of my charm, I guess. A lot of people tell me, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the [01:56:05] thing is, you could say I wish I was better at politicking in I guess. Yeah, [01:56:10] but but but the charm of it is that you’re not.

Tara Renton: Yeah, I guess so. Well, it’s it’s not [01:56:15] served me too badly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And I’d be a very different person if I was better at that kind [01:56:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly.

Tara Renton: Probably be nice just to have a little tiny bit of commercial [01:56:25] DNA.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah. Because I really haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: That sounds like your husband’s got that [01:56:30] in spades.

Tara Renton: He. Yes. He has.

Payman Langroudi: So you should do a project together. You should do this teaching centre.

Tara Renton: I’d [01:56:35] love to do it together. Well, I was just. I ring up Richard Porter and just say, [01:56:40] do you want your oral surgery or a facial pain I love. I’d [01:56:45] love to train oral facial pain. Do you know, I get a lot of people asking me about doing special. There’s [01:56:50] no speciality in oral facial pain. Yeah, but I think it would be a fantastic thing if certain dentists are interested. [01:56:55] I think you do your dentistry for 4 or 5 days a week, and then you do one day speciality, [01:57:00] and that would be make an awful lot of sense for for, you know, maintaining interest. [01:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: So this is something I want to go into at this thing at ministry, right? Is the question of [01:57:10] should I specialise or should I go on Richard Porter’s course? Yes. [01:57:15] Or for the sake of the argument, Frank spear or yes or whatever. [01:57:20] But you know, should I specialise? And the other question, which speciality should I do? [01:57:25] Because I think oral surgery. I say all surgeries, one on its own in a way. [01:57:30] But for me, when I when a young dentist ask me which, which one should I do? I’m [01:57:35] not sure which one I like the most. I’m going to do whichever one. Yeah. Like get very good at anything. [01:57:40] Yeah. And you’ll enjoy it. Outside of. Also, I’d say all surgery and max facts and blood [01:57:45] and flaps and bone. Some people are made for that, and some people just don’t want to [01:57:50] go anywhere near that.

Tara Renton: And I understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But whether it’s.

Tara Renton: A lot of people do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. A lot of people [01:57:55] do. A lot of people do.

Tara Renton: And it’s incredibly rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the thing we don’t have anymore is that, you know, the failed [01:58:00] medic syndrome. Yes. Because it’s just as hard to get into dentistry as to get into medicine.

Tara Renton: Well, it’s. [01:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: Harder. It’s harder in my day that that was the thing. Yeah. It was you couldn’t quite get into [01:58:10] medicine then that you came to dentistry. And then then and then those guys end up becoming Max fac surgeons because [01:58:15] they wanted to be doctors. For me, you said it for me.

Tara Renton: I was biting my tongue, which is very [01:58:20] unusual, which is not a great that’s not a great solution. No, it’s [01:58:25] not a great professional way to select your future career. Yeah. No, I think and it’s not. And, [01:58:30] you know, saying that now it’s and [01:58:35] the part of the reason I originally chose dentistry is I know that I, I knew that I could work [01:58:40] in a practice for one or 2 or 3 days a week and do whatever I wanted to do. The other [01:58:45] time. So I think there’s that pressure of I think the kids put themselves under a lot of pressure. [01:58:50] They want to be Instagram influencers. They want to be this. They probably want to prefer to be that than actually [01:58:55] doing a lot of the dentistry, to be fair, which is a shame for the patients. Um, [01:59:00] but I think it’s not just about pleasing. [01:59:05] I think there’s so much out there, like, well, like orofacial pain, there’s no speciality in orofacial pain. [01:59:10] There’s no speciality in lots of aspects of teeth whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: No implants. Implants.

Payman Langroudi: Not going [01:59:15] with that. Should I specialise, should I go on a course? Should there be some sort of hybrid? Yeah. Which [01:59:20] is what you’re suggesting.

Tara Renton: I think it would be great.

Payman Langroudi: Like even even at one from institutions, you know, like [01:59:25] it could be that you could go. And I know it’s like a part time MSc. They have these things, right? [01:59:30] But but something where people could, could follow an interest.

Tara Renton: And have [01:59:35] a network, a supportive network.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And that would be a UK wide. I mean, another [01:59:40] going back to undergraduate. Why don’t we have national curricula in orofacial pain? [01:59:45] You know, I heard you saying one of your podcasts about when you first qualified from Cardiff, [01:59:50] you went into BT and you had you could see that some people were really good at this, and [01:59:55] some people were really good at that and, you know, identified some of the weaknesses in your own training. Yeah. [02:00:00] I just think, actually, why aren’t we just. And that’s an argument for even the NHS as well, [02:00:05] when there’s all this good stuff happening, why aren’t we harnessing that and spreading the love? [02:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because we’re very slow to change. We’re very slow to change. But you’re form of the system, [02:00:15] right? Can you can you understand why we’re so slow to change?

Tara Renton: Well, I think one of the [02:00:20] problems, like talking about ID blocks and, and, and diagnosing TN, we’re [02:00:25] still doing the same stuff we were taught at dental school.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, your kids are in, you know, it [02:00:30] data science, AI changing weekly.

Tara Renton: Yes, but I’m just.

Payman Langroudi: Saying those industries [02:00:35] are very quick to change, but Dental medical.

Tara Renton: But they’re still teaching the same stuff I was taught [02:00:40] at dental school and that’s wrong. It’s mad and it’s wrong. It’s completely wrong and it’s not [02:00:45] fit for purpose. And I feel sorry for the kids for that because they’re already predisposed to anxiety. [02:00:50] They don’t have their confidence is not built up enough, I think, [02:00:55] and their interpersonal skills, they don’t know who they are.

Payman Langroudi: How have you managed to navigate all [02:01:00] of this and keep such a like, smile on your face? Because [02:01:05] that’s I’d say that’s the the biggest success of your sort of career. Like we like meeting [02:01:10] you properly is that, you know, you know, a lot of people get jaded and [02:01:15] lost.

Tara Renton: I’m always well, it’s the curiosity and I’m always hoping for. I [02:01:20] feel most sorry for people that go to work and do the same thing over [02:01:25] and over again. Never question, never think about how they can make things better [02:01:30] for the patient. Go home and have dinner.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Tara Renton: That would be, for me, the worst possible [02:01:35] work life environment I would have. Yeah I [02:01:40] am. I have managed with grit and determination, [02:01:45] but mostly curiosity and energy to, you [02:01:50] know, identify something that seems like a really good idea. Changing practices impossible. [02:01:55] Like the guidelines and everything. You just get all these, you know, depending on their different personality disorders. [02:02:00] Yeah. And we can’t do this because of that. And we can’t do that. You know, the, the negative this and but yeah, [02:02:05] I think, I think if you’re patient centred, then that that is obvious. The choice [02:02:10] is obvious that actually that’s the right direction, the right factor. We go in.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [02:02:15] and you’ve, you’ve lectured all over the world. Are there different research [02:02:20] cultures.

Tara Renton: Oh my goodness. Different Dental cultures. Yeah. Different conference cultures.

Payman Langroudi: So for [02:02:25] instance, one, one thing I heard that the, the Chinese research is much more [02:02:30] centralised. And so much as they look at a big problem and direct all [02:02:35] the resources towards these big problems in university.

Tara Renton: Well, that’s what they do in [02:02:40] corporates and R&D and corporates. Yeah, exactly. It’s exactly the same process. It’s much more commercial.

Payman Langroudi: So where we’re [02:02:45] at with with universities is almost it’s almost like a passion projects of [02:02:50] or of course, there’s the, the funding side of it as well. Yeah, [02:02:55] I think the passion is an important part of it. Right. But do you think there should be more coordination like [02:03:00] UK wide, wide. We should coordinate research.

Tara Renton: Should be much less barriers, much less [02:03:05] silos. Yeah. And much more collaboration. Yeah. And I think that’s something [02:03:10] that’s probably one of my other skills. I was never frightened to Praveen Anand, [02:03:15] who’s a is a fantastic, godlike neurologist at [02:03:20] Hammersmith Hospital. He led the whole research into nerve growth factor [02:03:25] in diabetic neuropathy. Mega brain. I wanted to as part of my PhD, [02:03:30] I wanted to use this equipment. It’s called medic and it basically is quantitative sensory testing. [02:03:35] So you have, um, hot and cold and you look at different fibre types A-delta C fibre [02:03:40] and how they react and pick up the different thresholds. Anyway, this really [02:03:45] expensive machinery and the rep was really lovely penny. And she said, oh well Prof Adnan’s [02:03:50] got that at Hammersmith Hospital. And I said, well you know, she said, oh I’m [02:03:55] sure, I’m sure he’d let you see the equipment. So there’s me [02:04:00] and I, you know, I’ve never been backwards and coming forward, I will front up and take a [02:04:05] challenge. Um, and I, you know, I remember going to his clinic and I honestly, it felt [02:04:10] like I was in hyperspace. There was him, there was a very bright Peter [02:04:15] neurophysiologist from Queen’s Square. There was Rolf Birch, really famous orthopaedic [02:04:20] surgeon who first talked about brachial plexus syndrome and pain after orthopaedic surgery. He [02:04:25] used to wear a Deerstalker and a pipe. I was in this clinic. It was like surreal. [02:04:30] And I really probably fundamentally understood less than 2% [02:04:35] of the conversation. It’s like dumb blonde, you know? And I just but it [02:04:40] didn’t stop me, you know? And he was brilliant. He let me he persuaded [02:04:45] the company to lend me a machine for one of my PhD chapters. That’s that’s how [02:04:50] to be is not afraid to if you’re that curious in something and you’ve [02:04:55] got the energy and the drive, things are going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [02:05:00] it reminds me of one of my school friends. He’s become a world expert [02:05:05] at, uh, psychology.

Tara Renton: Oh, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Fungus disease. [02:05:10] That he’s a doctor, but he’s become a real top guy in that. And he invited me to his professorial [02:05:15] lecture. And, um, honestly, slide two. [02:05:20] I was completely lost. Completely lost. And I thought I knew it. You know, I [02:05:25] thought I’d understand a few medical terms or.

Tara Renton: I’ve had so many.

Payman Langroudi: Experiences. Like I told [02:05:30] him. Slide two. I was I just couldn’t keep up. And he goes two. I [02:05:35] was like, and you know, when they’re in their own world, aren’t they for them? And there’s [02:05:40] other people in the room that they’re trying to impress or whatever they’re talking. He was talking so matter of fact [02:05:45] ish and I literally couldn’t keep up after slide two.

Tara Renton: And I’ll tell you the worst scenarios that you have [02:05:50] someone like that lecturing before you get up to lecture after them. Even worse. I felt like the village idiot [02:05:55] quite a few conferences. Like I’m obviously just there for the entertainment. I’m not really there for any kind of the [02:06:00] intellectual knowledge base.

Payman Langroudi: Place you’ve been.

Tara Renton: Oh golly, I’ve just been to the Andaman [02:06:05] Islands, which is very. The Andaman Islands are an archipelago [02:06:10] of islands, uh, east of India and west of Myanmar. [02:06:15] Oh, so they’re like. And if you follow the archipelago down, it becomes the Philippines. [02:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Was it beautiful or Indonesia?

Tara Renton: Indonesia. Indonesia. Absolutely. Stunningly beautiful. [02:06:25] Impossibly difficult to get to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How’d you get there?

Tara Renton: By boat. Hardly [02:06:30] any European. You do? By boat, by plane, by plane, by plane, by boat. Um, [02:06:35] but absolutely, absolutely beautiful. Um, [02:06:40] did a bit of diving, which I haven’t done for ages.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful in the sort of the yellow sand, kind of beautiful. [02:06:45]

Tara Renton: Beautiful beach something. We lived in Australia for five years and I go back a lot. My kids have been based in Australia [02:06:50] on and off for eight years. So beautiful beaches, beautiful beaches, a beautiful beach. But [02:06:55] um, the you land there basically. Um, the north Andaman is [02:07:00] basically there’s over 300 islands and only um 23 are [02:07:05] inhabited and only three of the islands have tourists on. Oh, and when [02:07:10] you fly over it’s this dense tropical forest.

Payman Langroudi: Forest.

Tara Renton: And [02:07:15] most of these lovely islands you go to is like the Maldives. It’s like pretty flat. And they’ve got these beautiful [02:07:20] hills. But when you go and go into the forest, I’m not kidding you. It’s like something out of [02:07:25] Games of Thrones. These trees are like Norfolk pines [02:07:30] and thick trunks. Beautiful. They go up 20m [02:07:35] at least.

Payman Langroudi: So would you get on a boat and and go to these different islands? [02:07:40]

Tara Renton: You can you can visit different islands or you just stay on one of them. We were on Havelock Island. They’re [02:07:45] all named after old British officers. Um and um [02:07:50] I think they’re trying to change the names, but they haven’t got around to it yet.

Payman Langroudi: So they call the Andaman.

Tara Renton: Called the Andaman.

Payman Langroudi: Andaman [02:07:55] Islands.

Tara Renton: Andaman Islands. Yeah. So that’s probably and [02:08:00] it was on the back of going to one of Tony’s Tiger annual Tiger conference. So he’s involved [02:08:05] in tiger conservation. So it just combines all that lovely thing that he does, which is I’m [02:08:10] really proud of him that he does that. So that was a very, very special trip. Yeah. But [02:08:15] I mean I love Cornwall, so I spent my first few years in Cornwall. So probably [02:08:20] my favourite place on earth is Cool Sand beach.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Tara Renton: Yeah, that’s where my [02:08:25] ashes are going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t feel like the rest of the UK, does it? It just feels like a different country.

Tara Renton: Where the people are [02:08:30] very different.

Payman Langroudi: People are different. It’s just different. Everything different. Different landscapes, different hilliness. [02:08:35] Yeah.

Tara Renton: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: There it is cool.

Tara Renton: The walks are great. The sea. Just [02:08:40] being in. I swim every day.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a place there?

Tara Renton: My mum’s my mum’s house. Oh, your mum’s on the beach.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [02:08:45]

Tara Renton: The pub’s five foot outside the front door.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Tara Renton: The back, back gate goes onto [02:08:50] the beach. I don’t think there’s a better place on earth. I love it there.

Payman Langroudi: Good food and stuff as well. [02:08:55]

Tara Renton: Uh, it can be, it can be variable. But yeah, no, generally pretty good food. Excellent. Yeah. [02:09:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s been such a massive pleasure and a real privilege to have you. So thank you so much for coming [02:09:05] all the way.

Tara Renton: My pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really enjoyed that and learned so much from you. I don’t your [02:09:10] mindset particularly is just such a such a beautiful way of looking at things, you know, like curious, [02:09:15] positive, um, uh, I always thought that was a young person’s [02:09:20] outlook, but it’s lovely to see someone continuous to be continuing to be that [02:09:25] way, you know, post retiring from all of your jobs.

Tara Renton: I think the family would like me just to kick off [02:09:30] the shoes. It’s never going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing this.

Tara Renton: My absolute pleasure. Payman. [02:09:35] Thank you for the invitation.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [02:09:40] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [02:09:45] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [02:09:50] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:09:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [02:10:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [02:10:05] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [02:10:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [02:10:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [02:10:20] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the website at minimalist dash dot dot [00:00:25] app, or check out the Instagram page at minimalist [00:00:30] dot join us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Mike grey onto the podcast. Mike is a. Legendary [00:01:00] is the best word I can find for it. Yeah yeah yeah. [00:01:05] I’ve got a degree of hero worship for you, man. Um, [00:01:10] they say never meet your heroes. But, you know, it’s a massive pleasure that you’ve come.

Mike Gray: Oh, no. It’s my [00:01:15] pleasure. Like I said, I. I think you got the wrong guy. Like I said, because it’s Dental Leaders [00:01:20] podcast and look at me, you know, but, uh, no absolute pleasure. And, uh, [00:01:25] yeah, it’s, uh, much respect for yourself as well and everything. Well, you [00:01:30] know, it’s, you’re a perfect person to speak to of life outside dentistry, [00:01:35] you know, because, uh, which is, and it’s awesome. And I think you don’t realise that [00:01:40] when you start dentistry, um, because you think, well, you know, I just have to drill people’s mouths and yet [00:01:45] you done all this, which is awesome.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very flexible, isn’t it? Dentistry that [00:01:50] my daughter’s thinking of going into it. Although these days you never know with, uh, robots [00:01:55] and you know what’s going to be like eight years time when she.

Mike Gray: Was working on it, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:02:00] I mean, the brain, definitely the the language model. And it’s time. It’s going to be the [00:02:05] super computer. Right. But then the only other thing is like, you know, the eyes and the hands. Yeah. And [00:02:10] you know, man, if they can’t make hands better than human hands in eight years time.

Mike Gray: Then when [00:02:15] Musk was on about it, I saw something the other day.

Payman Langroudi: He’s like, go to medical school. Yeah, I saw that.

Mike Gray: Well, it’s. [00:02:20] And it’s right. Yeah. I’d give that advice in this country for different reasons.

Payman Langroudi: But your mom’s [00:02:25] a doctor, right?

Mike Gray: Yeah. She is. She is. And she said, don’t do medicine. It’s 2004. [00:02:30] I went to university, so, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve got an amazing sort [00:02:35] of history insomuch as not only are you an expert at restorative dentistry, [00:02:40] some innovative stuff that I’ve seen you’re doing and teaching. Yeah. Um, around [00:02:45] minimally invasive stuff around full mouth stuff and surgical stuff. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:02:50] photography. Yeah. But actually your journeys come through mountain [00:02:55] Biking at the highest level. Travelling the world. Doing that. [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. And a music career.

Mike Gray: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: How did this.

Mike Gray: Career. [00:03:05] I shouldn’t say failed because I did I did all right. Yeah. Um. Yeah. And I [00:03:10] think I would say that’s a big strength in that just [00:03:15] from coming from those worlds. It means I approach things quite [00:03:20] different now. Um, so yeah, mountain biking, I did that. I’ve [00:03:25] always been two wheels, anything, two wheels, um, from about the age of ten. And, uh, I used to race [00:03:30] a race pretty much professionally. I raced over the World Series over three [00:03:35] different disciplines like downhill, which is getting from the top of the mountain to the bottom as fast as you can, and then full cross [00:03:40] where it’s for people like head to head. And then a little bit later, I, um, did World Enduro, [00:03:45] which is more endurance based, but you kind of pedal up the hill and then race down over a couple of days. So a [00:03:50] couple of days. Yeah. So it’s so it’s, um. It didn’t mix [00:03:55] too well with dentistry. Lots of injuries, uh, point to anywhere on my body. There’s nuts [00:04:00] and bolts and various things holding it together. I never got the, um, the sort of the, [00:04:05] the, you know, like the insurance insure your hands sort of thing because my premium was always too high [00:04:10] when you have to list your injuries prior. So, uh, waste of time on that one. [00:04:15] But, uh, yeah, it came from that realm, which [00:04:20] is, it’s something I learned early on is you [00:04:25] got to work hard wherever you want to do to, to, to get to the top to.

Payman Langroudi: To get anywhere.

Mike Gray: Well, I [00:04:30] think what to do well is a different one because you’ve only got to work a little bit harder than average because [00:04:35] you just got to work, you know, a little bit more than the average person, you’ll do well. But if you want to get to the top, like. [00:04:40]

Payman Langroudi: Obsession.

Mike Gray: Yeah, it’s that side of it. And so, but it’s [00:04:45] also an element of, okay, well, what am I going to do different to everyone else [00:04:50] that’s going to because everyone’s working hard, everyone’s putting in the hours, everyone’s putting in the training. So when [00:04:55] it’s racing, for example, you’re looking at your bike. What can I tinker with this? What can I change? Can I change my tires or pressures [00:05:00] or this or that or that side? And you’re always looking for that edge. And then, um, [00:05:05] and similarly music came after that. Um, and with [00:05:10] that, there’s, there’s 1,000,001 people doing it and you don’t have to do it better than everyone [00:05:15] else, but you’ve just got to do something a little bit different. And it could be that you do it slightly better or [00:05:20] you don’t have to, you know, sort of reinvent the wheel, you know, as Elvis or someone [00:05:25] like that. And so it’s just that sort of mindset [00:05:30] I put to the dentistry whenever I’m doing it, it’s like, okay, well, what, [00:05:35] how can I do this a little bit different? Everyone’s doing it this way. I’m told to do it that way. What can [00:05:40] I change? And my brain’s constantly going with lots of, for example, I, [00:05:45] I hate placing retraction cord And [00:05:50] I haven’t found a better way of doing it. Uh, and for anyone [00:05:55] says sort of retraction pace. No, it can be an adjunct, but you’re not replacing sort [00:06:00] of double cord and things like that, but just packing it and placing it is awful, I hate it, it’s a bit of my day. [00:06:05] I do not like. I haven’t come up with a better way to do it yet. So every time I sit there and resent it, but it’s constantly in [00:06:10] my head, it’s like, how can I change this? How can I do that? How can I make this a better experience, slicker, [00:06:15] more efficient, whatever. Yeah. And so I do that a lot with everything.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the answer to that? [00:06:20]

Mike Gray: Oh, the retraction cord. I don’t know yet. If you can tell me what’s an instrument?

Payman Langroudi: There’s an instrument. I stopped practising [00:06:25] 12 years ago, so maybe things have moved on. But there was an instrument that was like a half moon.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know the one I’m talking about? There’s lots of.

Mike Gray: Variations. Yeah. You get little cord packers with little teeth and [00:06:35] things like that. And it’s like, I don’t think I’m too cackhanded when I, you know, compare [00:06:40] my work to others. But when it comes to retraction cord fingers and thumbs and, and I think that’s [00:06:45] just the way it rolls. And, and so.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested, I’m quite interested in, you know, [00:06:50] the things, little tips and tricks that every dentist, every dentist [00:06:55] has. Now, you as a sort of innovator, as a teacher, you’ve got more tips [00:07:00] and tricks than, than the next man generally. But you know, if [00:07:05] someone does come up with an answer.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where do they go now? We’ve never [00:07:10] been at a better time.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now than than than before. I mean, I remember [00:07:15] 25 years ago, you know, it’s about who you bumped into by mistake was the [00:07:20] key thing.

Mike Gray: It’s there’s so much opportunity and in a way that can be difficult because [00:07:25] there’s just so much it’s, you know, similar to that whole music side of things before you [00:07:30] had to go out gig and this. Whereas now everything’s just online and, and sort of doing it that way. And yeah, [00:07:35] it’s things are so accessible because so I love that I love, um, that sort of [00:07:40] innovation side. And I suppose a snippet into my psyche is, is I’ve taught [00:07:45] myself CAD. Um, and that world of CAD combined with 3D printing, which [00:07:50] you do as well. Whatever you dream up, you can draw up and print within the same day. It’s incredible. [00:07:55] So, um, what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Your approach when you are about to dive into something? [00:08:00] Is your approach? Who should I call first? Or is your [00:08:05] approach what book I should read? What, what resource? What do you do? Do you Google it? What do you do? [00:08:10]

Mike Gray: My approach should be who do I, you know, who do I call in that I’m not very good. [00:08:15] I’m very much sort of run solo. And I’m not saying that’s the best way. That’s my personality type. [00:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: The best way is to call some people I know, but I’m the same as you. My my first instinct [00:08:25] isn’t.

Mike Gray: I’m getting better at that. I am getting better at that. Um, so it’s, [00:08:30] it’s usually it would be if I have an idea, um, I’ll just get obsessive [00:08:35] and I’ll sit there and I’ll literally.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? So you said, you said on another part, I [00:08:40] heard you say, uh, photography. Most people would go on a course. Yeah. I had [00:08:45] to learn it all inside out. So what do you do?

Mike Gray: Yeah, I’m changing that a little bit because [00:08:50] courses are great and I think I’m it’s weird. I’m almost starting my [00:08:55] career later because I didn’t put any effort into dentistry. I hated [00:09:00] it, like I said. So I graduated in 2009, did about four years of hospital jobs, [00:09:05] um, got my place in med school for max FACs. Um, uh, [00:09:10] and that was, you know, which we touched on earlier where [00:09:15] my, you know, my best friend took his life and he was one of those where I was like, oh, I’m [00:09:20] going to step back here. And I went back to racing bikes for a couple of years. Not necessarily [00:09:25] the right answer. Again, that whole obsessive side of things and burying yourself, you think [00:09:30] you’re being good, but actually you’re not giving yourself time to process anything.

Payman Langroudi: What was [00:09:35] the emotion that that he took his own life in dentistry. And so you were angry at dentistry [00:09:40] or something?

Mike Gray: Um, no, I think a lot of it was.

Payman Langroudi: Shook you out of what.

Mike Gray: You think. It’s [00:09:45] the guilt. I hadn’t seen him as much as I should have or. And it’s not, you know, I know the reality [00:09:50] is, is I was there for him as a mate and I was a buddy. And, you know, it was a good friend and that side of it. But Max [00:09:55] factor is all consuming. You know, he’s working 110 hour weeks. It was, you know, all [00:10:00] in and not being able to have that quality time. I was just kind of like, [00:10:05] ah, this, this is this sucks. This is rubbish. This is this is not life. And so I’m [00:10:10] just gonna, I’m gonna step back. I’m not doing this. And then and a lot of it was I was trying to cope but [00:10:15] wasn’t coping. I think it’s the honest answer. Um, and you know, nothing’s better than [00:10:20] world level sport. Just burying your emotions. Just train every day, [00:10:25] all day. Go and race here, there, everywhere. And you don’t actually have to sit with anything. [00:10:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you stop completely, completely.

Mike Gray: No, I was never fast enough to earn enough money. So [00:10:35] that was good for my dentistry because it kept my hand in so that I’ve got experience. [00:10:40] So even though I didn’t really learn anything. I was gaining experience over those years, so [00:10:45] I used to work part time, sort of living on a shoestring and like so with the racing, I’ll get bike sponsors, [00:10:50] you know, flights and hotels and stuff paid for that sort of thing, but nothing serious to, [00:10:55] to, to live properly.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that life. It’s a load [00:11:00] of training, I guess.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, and then. But you’re travelling all over the world.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:11:05] Yeah. So those two years that I raced the World Series went everywhere from Chile to Spain [00:11:10] to Colorado to, you know, Italy just, just all over. And it’s, [00:11:15] it’s, it’s awesome in that a lot of the people you race with, certainly [00:11:20] the racing I was doing was against the clock. So when you’re against each other, but when you’re racing against [00:11:25] the clock, you don’t have any of that animosity, that sort of right. So your body’s so you’re in these [00:11:30] incredible places.

Payman Langroudi: With incredible.

Mike Gray: People. Yeah. And, and often it’s not touristy. [00:11:35] So you’re off the beaten track. And so you get to experience parts of the world that you just, you would just [00:11:40] never see, which I love to go back and do that. But at the time I was doing that, I [00:11:45] wasn’t present. There was nothing there. You were completely focussed on the event. And I get emotional thinking back [00:11:50] of all the crazy places and beautiful things I’ve seen, and I wasn’t actually soaking it in. Um. [00:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: But, and I guess there’s a, there’s a sort of reflection [00:12:00] of that on every aspect of your life, right? Yeah. It’s not only when you’re in Chile not paying [00:12:05] attention to Chile. Yeah, yeah. It’s when you’re at home not paying attention to your best friend or not your mum [00:12:10] or whatever it is.

Mike Gray: Yeah, yeah. And I’m a lot better now. Um, it’s, you know, [00:12:15] anyone that hasn’t seen a good therapist, like whether you feel you need it or not, definitely recommend. [00:12:20] Uh, it turns out I needed it. It’s funny actually, because I [00:12:25] would say I’m a high achiever. I’m used to, you know, just picking stuff up, sorting things out, flying through, [00:12:30] done early, whatever. And, uh, I was with my therapist for about two and a half years and, and he was like, [00:12:35] I think you’re ready to sort of fly the nest. And I’m like, yeah, yeah. You know, So there I was like, oh, how long do most [00:12:40] how long do you spend with most people? He’s like, oh, about six months. I was like, oh, so not high [00:12:45] achieving. They’re not high achieving there. But one of the best things I ever did just to bring [00:12:50] you in touch with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: And while we’re on that subject.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:12:55] was the thing that made you switch from I don’t need a therapist to, okay, let’s try this. [00:13:00]

Mike Gray: It was never I didn’t need it was, uh, a friend of mine [00:13:05] had gone. And so then, you know, it made me think, well, I couldn’t [00:13:10] give myself a good reason not to. And that was why I went, um, I genuinely I didn’t [00:13:15] think I really needed it, you know, at that side of it. But when I presented myself with argument of, [00:13:20] you know, give me a reason why you shouldn’t go, you can’t give [00:13:25] yourself a good reason.

Payman Langroudi: And so it tends to be that I don’t need to. Yeah. Like, for [00:13:30] instance, by the way, I’ve given the advice a hundred times. Go get a therapist. Yeah. But but [00:13:35] personally, I feel like I don’t need to. Yeah, it’s an interesting switch between. I don’t [00:13:40] need to to. Let me try this. Yeah. And what? Really? Now it’s playing on my mind so [00:13:45] much. Yeah. I’ve got a couple of members of staff who their thing is like, why would if you could afford it, why [00:13:50] wouldn’t you? Yeah. Like it’s a want, not a need kind of thing, you know? And that’s really getting [00:13:55] to me now. Yeah. Because I said.

Mike Gray: Well, you know, Payman you give yourself a good reason why you shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, I’ve [00:14:00] got so many good reasons I shouldn’t have you just.

Mike Gray: Like I’m not smart enough.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going back [00:14:05] to the back to the writing.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who were the other people? Were [00:14:10] they like, uh, people from all over the world? Yeah. Yeah. Competitors.

Mike Gray: World champions, like, you know, everyone. So [00:14:15] I used to, uh, over the various different disciplines. I’d sort of sniff [00:14:20] around between 50th to 70th in the world, something like that. Um, which [00:14:25] was, like I said, it’s a hell of a cool level to reach, but unless you’re [00:14:30] sort of top 30, top 20, you’re not making any money. So you’re just doing it for.

Payman Langroudi: You might have been [00:14:35] number one in the UK. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Well. Number champion. Well yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:14:40] But number 40 in the world and 40 in the world doesn’t cut it as a career.

Mike Gray: No no no not in not [00:14:45] in the mountain biking. I think road cycling would be a bit different. So, uh, it’s [00:14:50] uh. Yeah, I went down the wrong discipline.

Payman Langroudi: And typically what would happen, you’d arrive in Chile?

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:14:55] is the next day, the competition or would you have to acclimatise or so.

Mike Gray: So for example, Chile, [00:15:00] I think there was something like, yeah, 14 hour flight. You pack everything up in your bag. And again, [00:15:05] if you’re you’re further up the roster, you’ve got big team around you. So they’re sorting all the [00:15:10] bikes and mechanics.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas you are you going by yourself?

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. Kicking around by me. It’s like I’m a [00:15:15] mechanic and that sort of thing. Got to get myself there, organise everything, feed myself. No masseurs, none of that. [00:15:20] So um, so yeah, I just packed my bike up in a bike bag. Carry what? Spares [00:15:25] I could, um, and just set out on the aeroplane and I think it’s like it [00:15:30] was a long way to Chile. It was two flights and the first one was like 14 hours. And [00:15:35] then when I got there, I just hired a car, put the seats down, throw everything in [00:15:40] the back. I got stopped by the police within like five minutes for doing something wrong or going the wrong [00:15:45] way. And then yeah, make way. I had like a two, [00:15:50] four hour drive. I can’t even remember. Um, South of Santiago, up to [00:15:55] the mountains. And you rock up, find your hotel, acclimatise yourself a bit, [00:16:00] and then you’re into sort of practice then, um, so you would [00:16:05] get a couple of days to you get to, for example, the world enduro, I think Chile, they might have [00:16:10] been like five race tracks. So but you have to pedal [00:16:15] up on your own steam. So you’re pedalling up five mountains. So it’s, it’s, and that’s just the [00:16:20] training. So you’d have enough time to practice each track once, but [00:16:25] they’re so long, you don’t really know where you’re going. So you just hitting stuff. Uh, the expression [00:16:30] is blind. You don’t really know what’s around the corner, which is hard when you’re trying to race fast. It’s [00:16:35] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Because you just imagine mountain.

Payman Langroudi: Biking is an adrenaline sport. Yeah, but it’s not adrenaline [00:16:40] for the first. Climbing up for a few days. Well, yeah.

Mike Gray: No, see, obviously when [00:16:45] you come down. So you pedal up and you wouldn’t get time pedalling up. You just had a time frame, so you had to get to the top with [00:16:50] it. So you couldn’t take it easy. So you had to pedal like you had to be fit to pedal up. And then, uh, you would [00:16:55] race down and that’s where you’re timed. And so you’re going as fast as you could. And the downs would be anywhere from about 5 minutes to [00:17:00] 25 minutes. And at the end of it, they add up all the times and he’s done everything quickest sort of wins there. So you’d have [00:17:05] a couple of days practice, but you’d be burning 8000 calories a day. So it was it [00:17:10] was tough just on the training.

Payman Langroudi: Side itself as an adrenaline junkie.

Mike Gray: Yeah, definitely. [00:17:15] Um, and I still sort of, and I listen to that voice [00:17:20] in my head a lot more now. That’s maturity. It’s like 1340 this year. And [00:17:25] so that voice that says that’s not a good idea. I pay attention to it, whereas [00:17:30] I didn’t before and obviously got myself in trouble with lots of injuries and doing stupid things, but [00:17:35] I do. I do still enjoy that side. For example, um, [00:17:40] week after next, I’m taking my motorbike to Germany to do the coldest motorbike rally [00:17:45] in the world. And why do I want to go and ride my motorbike and sleep in a tent in -12? [00:17:50] I don’t know, but well, I’ll tell you why. You know, I love motorbikes. [00:17:55] I love the experience. The group of friends I’m going with are great. They’re a load of old race buddies and [00:18:00] they’re the type that would make cyclists. Yeah, you know, some of them are. And [00:18:05] then and then, uh, uh, they’re the type of friends [00:18:10] that make a trip to the supermarket fun. Um, so normally every year we do [00:18:15] something called the Dragon rally, which is a motorbike rally up to North Wales. [00:18:20] And it’s supposed to be grim.

Mike Gray: So it’s usually first weekend of February and you go and camp [00:18:25] in a field in uh, in Snowdonia. And so this year we’ve moved it on to [00:18:30] this elephant rally, which is which is in Germany. But you’ve got to be sensible though, because again, [00:18:35] being younger and more stupid, first time I did the Dragon rally, you can only take whatever [00:18:40] you can fit on your bike. So it’s not much. And so had a little one man tent and I’m about sort of six [00:18:45] three. And this, this tent was tiny as like a sort of a saggy coffin. And, [00:18:50] uh, I remember getting a bit more drunk than I should have and ripped my tent getting [00:18:55] in, got one leg in my sleeping bag and passed out. And then I woke up [00:19:00] covered in snow. It was snowing, it was buried. I was borderline hypothermia. [00:19:05] And, uh, I managed to sort of climb in my sleeping bag and survived the night. But [00:19:10] after that I was like, yeah, it’s actually, you need to be a little bit sensible on this sort [00:19:15] of thing there. So, uh, I won’t be getting so inebriated in, in the Bavarian forest. [00:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: So was the thing that made you stop that you felt like you couldn’t pay for your life this way?

Mike Gray: Uh, [00:19:25] no. That was the music. Music. I got pissed off with that side. Um, so [00:19:30] I used to race all through from the age of ten competing, [00:19:35] you know, bikes, motorbikes, mainly mountain biking and, and all the way through uni up until final [00:19:40] year. Um, and then I knuckled down in final year, which, which because I never. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s when the oral surgery kicked in.

Mike Gray: Well I, I never, I never knew how to [00:19:50] study. Um, in school, my parents never made me do my homework. Um, [00:19:55] and luckily I was smart so I could get away with it. I had about like 80% attendance for my A-levels, [00:20:00] which works out missing a day a week. And it was and uh, achievement. [00:20:05] Well, stupid. No, I wouldn’t encourage it, but, you know, I’d be. I want [00:20:10] to go race my bike or I’m tired from racing or I wasn’t skiving off just kicking, you know, kicking around the [00:20:15] bus stop. But, um, and then when I got to uni, it’s the first time I was like, oh shit, I [00:20:20] actually have to work to pass these exams.

Payman Langroudi: You southern Bristol.

Mike Gray: Yeah. So that was in Bristol. But [00:20:25] then, you know, the fatal error as far as my [00:20:30] motivation, there was, you know, being told that, oh, dentistry is just a pass or [00:20:35] a fail. So I was like, okay, what’s the minimum amount of work I need to do to get by that?

Payman Langroudi: I made [00:20:40] that mistake.

Mike Gray: Oh, dude. So it was a bit stressful though. So I sailed too close to the wind [00:20:45] for a couple of years. I was, I was just scraping.

Payman Langroudi: Through out like that. But, but it’s, it’s a mistake [00:20:50] inasmuch as you put it in your own head that that’s all the only two outcomes are pass and fail. [00:20:55] Yeah. Which by the way, I failed. Yeah, but but but the outcomes are so different. I see some students [00:21:00] now. I don’t know if you come across students now. Yeah. My goodness man. You know like going on [00:21:05] hands on courses. Yeah. There were a few students. There’s 2 or 3 students I can think of who [00:21:10] are more connected in the dental world than me. Yeah. Been in it for 25 years. Some [00:21:15] dude sitting in the third year of dental school connected. Yeah. You know, it’s. [00:21:20] I guess it’s the internet again, right? It’s allowing that sort of thing to happen. [00:21:25]

Mike Gray: Yeah. It makes us. That’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Been. But you know that kid when he comes out, you know he’s going to be [00:21:30] much more ready to go than I was. Yeah.

Mike Gray: I had no idea I was I was massively naive [00:21:35] to the world and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much oral surgery did you do [00:21:40] before you started thinking maxfax.

Mike Gray: Uh, so I did a GP t, which [00:21:45] was two years. So did my first year dentistry and I was in a sleepy town in Swanage [00:21:50] on the south coast. So did a lot of dentures. And I’m like, oof, dentistry is not for me. And then [00:21:55] I was attached then to Poole Hospital, which was known as the Republic of Poole. Um, [00:22:00] most incredible job I ever had. Um, and, uh, [00:22:05] that’s where I did the oral surgery side. And then I did a four year maxfax [00:22:10] after that. And then I stayed in the hospitals then for sort of 3 to 4 years. And I [00:22:15] went to, um, I did a restorative job in Cardiff, but then I used to locum, um, [00:22:20] uh, night smacks facts, which again is stupid. Working 24 hours.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:22:25] did that.

Mike Gray: Job. Yeah, yeah. In the heat. In the heat.

Payman Langroudi: I did cry Cardiff Infirmary [00:22:30] was the. Yeah. The nightmare of. But, you know, some people thrive like it sounds like you thrived. [00:22:35] Yeah, yeah. Adrenaline junkie guy. Yeah, I hated it. Hated it, hated you. I [00:22:40] loved I still think it was good for me. Yeah, yeah. It was definitely good for me because nothing in life [00:22:45] has come close to.

Mike Gray: Oh, no. I think it should.

Payman Langroudi: Be compulsory that the.

Mike Gray: Student should do a year’s max [00:22:50] fax.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Maybe.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or nothing in life has come anywhere near as challenging as [00:22:55] being this just qualified dentist looking after people who had like pint glasses smashed [00:23:00] in their face, or some poor person who’s got terminal cancer and they’re doing [00:23:05] a gigantic operation on them. And you’re the doctor, the junior.

Mike Gray: It’s crazy. My [00:23:10] first patient on my first day was, well, they did three days later. Yeah. [00:23:15] And it was like Ludwig’s angina in a patient with severe dementia. [00:23:20] And what is it? What am I supposed to do? It was a yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember [00:23:25] the nurse on the ward telling me, yeah, now you’ve got to, you know, pull the catheter out. I was like, [00:23:30] what? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gray: I didn’t sign up for this. The trick with that is don’t make eye [00:23:35] contact. It’s just you just go about it like business. Um, so [00:23:40] yeah, so I did that.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you, how good did you get at what? Eventually by the end of this, could [00:23:45] you, I don’t know, obviously take out wisdom teeth. Could you do things like, [00:23:50] uh, you know, Lefort operations.

Mike Gray: Uh, no, I couldn’t do, I did, I did a lot of mandibles, [00:23:55] did a lot of tracheostomies, um, zygomas that side. Um, [00:24:00] so, and most of that stemmed from my first couple of years down in pool, [00:24:05] because if anybody wants good math facts experience, go to a small, busy hospital [00:24:10] and you’ll get all the hands on it, preferably somewhere where there’s no plastics. So they don’t take any of that. [00:24:15] And so I put the time in though, to impress. Like, you know, the more you put in, the more [00:24:20] you get out and that sort of role. So like I said, I was there 12 hours a day minimum. Um, but because I [00:24:25] was put in that time in the consultants were, you know, well, crack on because I remember there was [00:24:30] a consultant, Sajjad Walji and, uh, we do a surgical tracheostomy [00:24:35] and, uh, he said, you watch one, you do one. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Next [00:24:40] one came along. I was like, okay. And I was like, are you kidding? So I [00:24:45] had to do the surgical tracheostomy. I’m two years out of dental school. Um, and it’s [00:24:50] terrifying. You cut a little window in the trachea and they’re like, okay, you’ve got two minutes to get that tube in. Otherwise they’re dead. And [00:24:55] you’re just like, but this is incredible passage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Crazy.

Mike Gray: So [00:25:00] because I got a lot of hands on, the more you do, the more people will depend on [00:25:05] you and appreciate you sort of doing those bits. And so yeah, a lot of that surgical, [00:25:10] I did a lot of skins down in Poole as well, which was great for.

Payman Langroudi: Basal cell carcinoma.

Mike Gray: Yeah. Bccssx, [00:25:15] that sort of thing. And rotational flaps. Pedicle flaps.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re now [00:25:20] very comfortable with surgical in every sense. Did you put implants in now?

Mike Gray: Uh, I [00:25:25] do implants now. Yeah, yeah, I was late to that one though. Um, I, like I said, I wasn’t, I [00:25:30] wasn’t trying to move my career along then I was trying to do everything but be a dentist because like I said, got to [00:25:35] had my place in med school, three year Manchester. Um, and [00:25:40] yeah, my buddy passed away. I’m like, oh, screw this, like this, you know? And the other [00:25:45] thing is I could see the NHS going down the pan, which is sad. It’s really makes me really sad. Such a beautiful [00:25:50] system. Yeah. Care free at the point of delivery. But if it’s not working, [00:25:55] what does it matter if it doesn’t what it costs, you know? Um, and [00:26:00] so took that time out. I was like, I’m gonna race bikes again. So race bikes. [00:26:05] Um, yeah, like I made it as a semi career, [00:26:10] but I was, you’re never going to set yourself up on that. So then interestingly, in the max [00:26:15] facts, it probably was a coping mechanism. I started picking up guitar and just writing songs. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Before you move on to the music, what was the hairiest thing that happened [00:26:25] in that Max factor or some of the hairy things that happened to you? [00:26:30]

Mike Gray: We used to in Birmingham, it’s level two trauma centre. So at [00:26:35] time, you know, when I was there, you were getting everything from like Afghanistan and that. So people were stepping on, [00:26:40] you know, explosives in that side. And because often somebody steps on an [00:26:45] IED, obviously arms and legs get blown off, but everything comes and [00:26:50] hits the chin and jaw and all that side. And it’s the one I [00:26:55] used to find it difficult. Whenever you actually connected with reality, it was very easy in [00:27:00] Max factor to separate yourself of that a patient, um, or you know, it’s just parts [00:27:05] you’re, you see them unconscious. You don’t even build a relationship in the hospital. You just come in and [00:27:10] we’re going to operate. You don’t even talk to them, somebody else is whatever. And you just in theatre put them together, usually [00:27:15] unconscious when you’re finished. But the odd time when you do see him on the ward [00:27:20] afterwards and you realise, because the one that hit home for me was a young girl, 17 or [00:27:25] 18 in a in a RTA, and it didn’t even think, you know, you laughing, [00:27:30] joking around in theatres, sorting stuff, and then came by to you afterwards on the ward rounds and then a [00:27:35] Mother’s Day sort of like, oh, you don’t deserve this. And that’s give me goosebumps now thinking of it. And like, actually [00:27:40] there’s some really nasty stuff that you sort of see and humanity is can [00:27:45] be disgusting, which you see in max facts as well, because anyone fighting and doing horrible things [00:27:50] to one another usually involves injuries of the face and that side. So it’s a pretty [00:27:55] dark topic in that side, but incredible then as well what you can do and sort [00:28:00] that out. Um, but oh yeah. Hairy things. Yeah. I mean [00:28:05] saw everything from that. I did some really stupid things as well. I think you chat about mistakes afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: So Should [00:28:10] we go there now?

Mike Gray: I mean, it’s so dentally related. You [00:28:15] get called from A&E, docs come down. Somebody lost their [00:28:20] teeth. Um, and typically dentists, we look down on those as doctors [00:28:25] whenever it comes to the mouth. Yeah. I think that’s our one saving. Yeah. We got this. Yeah. You [00:28:30] know nothing you know. Yeah. And, uh, so I had a phone and it’s like, oh, you know, I’ve had a go at putting the [00:28:35] teeth back in, but can you just come and come and check? And I’m like, oh, what’s he gone and done, you know? So [00:28:40] I got down there and this gentleman sat there and, uh, he must have had a bit of perio because [00:28:45] you’d teeth like a burnt down fence, bless him. And, and I looked at it and I’m like, oh, what [00:28:50] have you done here? So I got his two front teeth and silly buggers gone and put them in the wrong way round. [00:28:55] So I swapped him round, put him back in the socket, stepped back and said to his wife, [00:29:00] I was like, you know, how’s that looking? We’re both sort of cocking her head and she’s like. And [00:29:05] then I’m like, oh no. So I leant back over him so that he [00:29:10] couldn’t see, and quickly swapped the teeth back around to how the doctor [00:29:15] had done it. And then I stepped back and I was like, how about that? And she’s like, yeah, yeah, that’s him. And I [00:29:20] learned a valuable lesson that day. You know, as far as ego and that side, the only doctor was [00:29:25] spot on and everything, right? And me as a professional came down, took the teeth back out, put them in the [00:29:30] wrong way round and yeah, got it all wrong. I like that. So, uh, learned a valuable [00:29:35] lesson that day.

Mike Gray: Another one was a poor kid. Um, he was a cleft patient, [00:29:40] um, of the, of the hospital and, uh, he’d come into A&E, fallen off his bike [00:29:45] or something, landed on his chin and he was sitting there and I’m like, this guy’s just been being a wimp. Like, it’s like he’s [00:29:50] blessing him. He’s had all his surgery with cleft and a lot of, you know, people who have been through in the mill [00:29:55] hospital environments are difficult. And so I’m like, uh, you know, and he [00:30:00] sat there and he’s making a fuss and he’s, uh, not really closing his jaw or anything like that. Took [00:30:05] an opt. Everything’s fine. No fractures, nothing. And [00:30:10] so I’m trying to send this kid home. I’m like, look, you need to toughen up. You just bruised your TMJ, that [00:30:15] side of it. And, uh, luckily there was a switched on A&E consultant who said, kids [00:30:20] in too much pain. It’s not just a bruise. And I’m like, yeah, it is. What do you know? You know, I’m the I’m the facial expert [00:30:25] here. And, uh, but so he overruled me and admitted him. And luckily my [00:30:30] reg came round. Um, this kid had managed to fracture his condyles [00:30:35] up through his mastoid bone into his brain. His condyles were sitting in [00:30:40] his brain. Wow. And that’s why he couldn’t close his jaw because they were stuck in there, but in a freakish [00:30:45] way. He’d done it without fracturing the condyles because you’d much more likely to fracture the condyles. [00:30:50] And I just felt awful. I’m busy there. I’m like, telling this kid to sort [00:30:55] of man up. Um, dude, you said a little. Meanwhile, his jaws sat in his brain [00:31:00] and, uh, so again, learnt a hell of a lesson then, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: What was the incident [00:31:05] that caused that?

Mike Gray: Landed on his chin and fell off like fell over, fell off his bike, landed on his chin and [00:31:10] must have just got everything just right and happened.

Payman Langroudi: To be a cleft patient. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And [00:31:15] that’s and so it’s me just jumping to conclusions thinking I know more than I do.

Payman Langroudi: And so what [00:31:20] happened there?

Mike Gray: They planned a joint case with Maxfax neuro because they’re like, oh, we got to do [00:31:25] it. And the the anaesthetist anaesthetised him, intubated him, popped it out. And they’re like, oh, [00:31:30] job done. So left it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, oh [00:31:35] my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness. That’s the juiciest one we’ve had on the podcast ever.

Mike Gray: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: They’re going. [00:31:40]

Mike Gray: About like lethal bliss. And I, like I said, I feel awful even thinking about it now. Oh, another [00:31:45] one. Let’s just do Maxfax. And you have all these stories. Cardiff. Cardiff. [00:31:50] I can give you one. Yeah. Go on. Um, again, so I worked restorative [00:31:55] during the day, which to be honest, you need to work two jobs if you’re doing restorative. Chill [00:32:00] chill af you stroll up at nine, you see about one patient. [00:32:05] Then you maybe have one patient in the afternoon and then you’re done early. And [00:32:10] so I used yeah, locum. Then Max faxed through the night and maybe [00:32:15] not a good idea being tired. Um, but I had a gentleman come in and he had like a sebaceous cyst [00:32:20] right in the middle of his forehead that got infected. Big throbbing, full of pus, red, angry [00:32:25] and being tired. I went to give him like a supraorbital block, but [00:32:30] must have gone way too low and actually went into his eye socket a bit, not hitting eyeballs or anything, [00:32:35] but I caused something to bleed so I just swelled up shut. So I’m like, oh great.

Mike Gray: So I’m having to do IOPs [00:32:40] and monitor that. So I’m already like, Mike, what have you done? And then, uh, [00:32:45] so eventually then after panicking about swelling, getting his eye swelling [00:32:50] up shut, then I’m on to incise and drain, uh, this sort of infected cyst [00:32:55] on his forehead. And I didn’t make a big enough incision. So I’m panicking about [00:33:00] this. I didn’t make a business. So I make an incision and I’m trying to get the pus out, and it was just too much pressure. [00:33:05] And then suddenly you know where this is going. Oh, in my face, pus exploded [00:33:10] in my face. And you’re trying to be professional. And this guy sat there. I’ve already balled up and he’s thinking, [00:33:15] who the hell is this cowboy that I’ve got this. You know, I don’t look old now. I looked even younger then, and, [00:33:20] uh. And I’m there just trying not to retch. Trying not to scream. Try not to run out [00:33:25] this professional where I sort of go around his back and then just, like, are trying to get. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Clean myself up.

Mike Gray: Oh, goodness. So yeah, I’d say that’s a that’s a terrible one [00:33:35] as well. So I’ll stop with that hat trick before.

Payman Langroudi: No they’re good. I enjoyed [00:33:40] those.

Mike Gray: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then music.

Mike Gray: Music. Yeah. So [00:33:45] that yeah. I think a coping thing with the Max factor was I just pick up a guitar and [00:33:50] play. And I used to play a lot of slide blues and that side of things.

Payman Langroudi: You could already play guitar.

Mike Gray: Yeah, I started [00:33:55] learning when I was about 13. I’m nothing incredible, but I get by And [00:34:00] I just started playing and writing songs, you know, later in life, really [00:34:05] the most musicians because I was 25, 26 at that point. [00:34:10] Um, and that’s where it started. And [00:34:15] then I went and had these couple of years of letting my hair down racing. And over [00:34:20] those couple of years, the music, it got to a point where I’m like, maybe I’ve got something. [00:34:25] And again, it was like, well, unless you [00:34:30] try, you’ll never know unless you know to put your money where your mouth is sort [00:34:35] of thing. So I dug into my pocket, asked around my old. And a good [00:34:40] friend of mine was in a band before. So I’m like producer, you know, give me a good [00:34:45] producer, whatever. So he put me on to this guy, Gethyn Pearson. And um, yeah, [00:34:50] sent him a demo and a lot of, you know, a lot of producers, if they don’t like it, they won’t take it on, you know, and so [00:34:55] he liked what he heard and because he where he was going. And so yeah, I went to a cool [00:35:00] studio, um, just for two days.

Mike Gray: Two songs. Oh, music industry’s wild [00:35:05] for hours as well. You can see there’s so many drugs involved and like, so you’d start, you’d [00:35:10] start in the morning and you’d stop when it’s done. Um, so often you’d go to like 2 a.m. that sort [00:35:15] of thing, which I don’t like. I don’t think it’s the best way to be productive, but that’s kind of the culture. So [00:35:20] we went in the studio, I did two days, two songs, Stupid Hours, and [00:35:25] came out with these two songs. And uh, it blew my mind where you could take it because I was kind of like [00:35:30] a one man band setup when it was not everyone was doing it. I had my nans suitcase [00:35:35] that I’d turned into a drum, but I put little drum triggers in there so you could make it sound like whatever you wanted. And [00:35:40] I had a tambourine, but drum triggers and stuff on that, it’s a massive sound. Guitar went to three different amps, [00:35:45] three different sounds, just huge sounds. And, uh, so [00:35:50] yeah, I did, uh, did, um.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of that sort of session [00:35:55] in a, in a The studio is the talent of the producer is a big deal, right?

Mike Gray: Oh, [00:36:00] massive. That makes it. You got to be able to write the song. You got to be able to do bits. But the producer has [00:36:05] a big part of it as well. I mean, they take a big cut like that, you get screwed [00:36:10] left, right and centre as an artist in the music world. And so for example, [00:36:15] um, a producer would take uh, four points, [00:36:20] so they call it four points, 4%. So that’s what that is. Yeah. So 4%. Um, [00:36:25] and you think, oh, 4%.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nothing of what of turnover.

Mike Gray: Well, so royalty [00:36:30] wise, then on average, let’s say even if you’re a successful artist, [00:36:35] um, but certainly new artists, you’ll get about sort of roughly 12% [00:36:40] royalties. Yeah, yeah. So the rest goes to labels, everything else [00:36:45] and that side and that that four points comes [00:36:50] out of your cut. So it’s more like 40% of what you.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Mike Gray: You know, [00:36:55] what you’re taking in is so that four out of that 12 leaves you with, uh, you [00:37:00] know, eight there. So it’s yeah, sorry, I got an A in maths and maths [00:37:05] goes in dentistry. Simple addition subtraction.

Payman Langroudi: But of your brains.

Mike Gray: Yeah. No [00:37:10] binomial expansion no more, you know. Um so.

Payman Langroudi: So so then now you had a couple [00:37:15] of songs. How does that progress on to.

Mike Gray: So from that one, [00:37:20] these songs, um, it just music [00:37:25] industry, it’s, it’s all who, you know, um, and it’s, it’s such an incestuous [00:37:30] world as well. And just off the back of that, these songs started circulating amongst different people [00:37:35] and that, and before you know it, I got a manager. Um, and that was a really cool [00:37:40] experience because he, um, uh, he owned like a [00:37:45] promotions company. So just run loads of music nights and loads of music venues [00:37:50] across the UK. So I went straight from a nobody. So he picked me up as [00:37:55] a manager back in, recorded some more bits, and then he just put me on stage with bands like Fun [00:38:00] Criminals and Alabama three and touring with them just off the back of Nothing [00:38:05] to Play into thousands of people. Um, which was incredible. Baptism of fire, but [00:38:10] a hell of an experience. Um, and so did.

Payman Langroudi: It, like standing on [00:38:15] a stage with thousands of people. The bigger the stage, as you would imagine. Yeah. [00:38:20] It’s.

Mike Gray: It’s the bigger the stage, the easier it is.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:38:25] you can’t make out faces.

Mike Gray: You can’t see anyone, you can’t see anything. You’ve got lights in your face, a huge audience [00:38:30] out there. So it’s they’re the hardest gigs I ever played. Were the empty [00:38:35] pubs when no one’s listening because you can. You can hear every conversation, [00:38:40] see everyone, see that absolutely nobody.

Payman Langroudi: Forming as a comedian or something [00:38:45] like that.

Mike Gray: Is the hardest because it’s very real right in front of you. Whereas [00:38:50] big stage, It’s almost very impersonal.

Payman Langroudi: But you know how in dentistry, like we qualify, [00:38:55] we, you know, start out doing a few procedures, mess it up. Yeah. Not that great [00:39:00] at communication. And then you learn the things, the important sort of cornerstones. What, [00:39:05] what’s the equivalent of that in, in that world? I mean, okay, you’re in a pub playing in front [00:39:10] of people who aren’t listening, but you get better at it. Did you did you feel like you were improving?

Mike Gray: I, [00:39:15] um, I, I’m still very envious of those people who [00:39:20] can go out and they’ve done that sort of pub circuit and they’ve put in way more hours [00:39:25] than me because I skipped, I skipped so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah. It’s [00:39:30] like they, they, I skipped so much of it because I, I got lucky with my manager [00:39:35] owning all these cool venues. And so rather than having to hustle with the little gigs, I [00:39:40] went straight into these, these big gigs. And so I didn’t, I didn’t earn it. I didn’t put my hours in [00:39:45] of people throwing shit and asking stupid requests and booing or whatever, Or not listening [00:39:50] or crashing into the sea.

Payman Langroudi: Pinch yourself a little bit in that moment, right?

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:39:55] But again, now I look back far more appreciative of the time. [00:40:00] Just a million miles an hour, not taking it in as well as I could.

Payman Langroudi: Stopping and smelling the [00:40:05] roses.

Mike Gray: Yeah, absolutely. And just not not taking that time to be because I’d [00:40:10] rolled on from, you know, terrible things to, to racing bikes straight into music. [00:40:15] Suddenly that took off like as a whirlwind. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did you [00:40:20] go with the music?

Mike Gray: So I had one sort of manager and starting getting people [00:40:25] in there and that sort of petered out. And um, so everything [00:40:30] that I had sort of was all taken down because music industry is very much about control [00:40:35] of who sees what. And that’s even within the industry. They love to play.

Payman Langroudi: They sort of FOMO [00:40:40] like, um, love to play.

Mike Gray: Games with one another.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: It’s like, oh, I’ve got this artist and like, they’ll drip [00:40:45] feed what they want to different people knowing how it’s going to spike their interest. Sort of thing. [00:40:50] Um, and so everything was taken down. And so again, starting from nothing. [00:40:55] I’m like, oh, this is rubbish. So um, same thing again a bit more cash. I’m [00:41:00] like, alright, cool. I’m going to record another couple of songs. And then I started releasing on my own and off [00:41:05] the back of releasing, uh, I only just put out two tracks of my [00:41:10] own. Um, because luckily I smart thing is, I own all the rights to it. Not so smart because [00:41:15] it’s just sat on a hard drive now doing nothing. So I own all of nothing at the minute. [00:41:20] Um, but I got, yeah, [00:41:25] I had a couple of people reach out basically to management people. There was one based in London, [00:41:30] so one was um, a guy, uh, I can’t remember his name now. [00:41:35] Um, but Jax Jones, I don’t know if he’s a sort of a sort of a sort [00:41:40] of a dance music type, um, sort of big deal is his manager.

Mike Gray: Um, and so he [00:41:45] sort of reached out And then I had another guy from LA and within a short space of time, like I had people coming [00:41:50] to my house sort of wanting to represent from a management side. Um, and [00:41:55] I ended up going with, uh, sort of London based and, [00:42:00] uh, so that happened that way. And so then I’ve [00:42:05] got a manager and they help build a team. So then you’ve got a promoter and that side and I [00:42:10] had some cool experiences. But again, this is the bit I found difficult with music in [00:42:15] that I love about dentistry now because I hated dentistry. Love it. Now, um, in [00:42:20] that again, music or anything as we’re talking about to do. Well, you got to work hard. Um, there’s [00:42:25] no substitute in music. You’ve got to work hard and have a bit of luck. And it went [00:42:30] the other way for me. So for example, I had a guy called Mike Smith come to my house [00:42:35] in Wales and he is at the time he was head of Universal Publishing. [00:42:40]

Payman Langroudi: So he came to a house in.

Mike Gray: Wales, in Wales.

Payman Langroudi: So he kind of wanted to blow your [00:42:45] socks off. So this was that.

Mike Gray: Whole sort of romanticising my managing you to sort of he, [00:42:50] he was a romantic at heart to tap into that. And at a time I was living in like a 500 year old [00:42:55] stone house in the depths of Wales. You come across a little bridge over a river and just that [00:43:00] whole story. And so, yeah, he came, he came over from London and, and he signed everyone from like, [00:43:05] Coldplay to George Ezra.

Payman Langroudi: He’d be like a major guy industry.

Mike Gray: He was [00:43:10] the head of Universal Publishing. It was as big as you get. Like in the UK. Massive came to my house [00:43:15] and I played a small set for him in my living room. So I had like this huge PA system, which I bought so I could [00:43:20] just gig myself. And I played this set for just him and my manager and he’s like, cool. [00:43:25] Yeah, you got something, you can do it this way, or you can get involved with us and we do it this and [00:43:30] that side. So I’m like, oh, sign me up. Cool. And sadly, his, his wife, [00:43:35] um, about a week later was diagnosed with cancer. Um, it was horrible story. And you know, [00:43:40] that that trumps my music. Um, but that was that door that opened. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: He disappeared.

Mike Gray: He disappeared. And again, music’s very much you’re attached to the individual. [00:43:50] So it’s not like the company would be like, oh, yeah, come on, we take you on now. No. You’re done. Like [00:43:55] you get signed to a label via by an A&R and they get fired or change. [00:44:00] That’s you done. You’re done. So there was a lot of bad.

Payman Langroudi: Luck came out of your [00:44:05] career at that point.

Mike Gray: Uh, no, I mean, that was things kept moving. Covid, Covid absolutely [00:44:10] put the nail in the coffin for me with music. So it was building ahead, building a team around me. [00:44:15] I had Peppa, Peppa Pig, uh, funding me. Peppa [00:44:20] pig was bankrolling me. So, um, e1 um, uh, [00:44:25] they’re big earners. Peppa Pig, obviously they do lots of [00:44:30] films and that, um, and they were expanding into music. Uh, and I think their big band they had [00:44:35] was like Lumineers. And so I was basically signed up to them. Um, which [00:44:40] is cool because you go, you go to the HQ and they’ve got a little cinema downstairs, and there’s [00:44:45] just Peppa Pig all over the wall and that sort of thing. And, uh. So, uh, yeah, [00:44:50] Peppa Pig was bankrolling me, and, uh, I, yeah, [00:44:55] had a good year lined up for 2020. So I was playing, [00:45:00] uh, some big festivals like Boomtown Boardmasters. So I was going to be [00:45:05] same stage of Kings. Leon Boardmasters uh.

Payman Langroudi: Do they pay?

Mike Gray: Ah, [00:45:10] nothing like. So I’ll be first on when everyone’s sleeping. And I think my [00:45:15] pot for a summer of festivals was up to about 7 or 8 grand if I played them. Um, [00:45:20] you know, you’re not going to sniff at it, but it’s not, you’re not going to live on that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you at least [00:45:25] like have an amazing time because you’re backstage or whatever? Oh, I.

Mike Gray: Know loads of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Cool, cool stuff with that. [00:45:30] And, and, uh, but 2020, I had that lined up and then Covid came along. Uh, [00:45:35] and then that was music off.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Just as we talked about the sort of the craziest oral [00:45:40] surgery stories. Yeah. What was the craziest music story you had?

Mike Gray: To be.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Mike Gray: It’s [00:45:45] the music is, you know, I’ve got a group of buddies now. I’m into my old [00:45:50] motorbikes. My my old Harleys are choppers and of course, the vaccine. And so I’ve got [00:45:55] a couple old Harleys. I’ve got like 1976, which is I’ve painted like leopard print and built up from [00:46:00] various bits and pieces. And then I’ve got another old Shovelhead 1979 and the [00:46:05] boys are hanging around with for that. No one comes close. I don’t [00:46:10] try and compete along to pieces, but it’s one of those like, you just step back and let him go. [00:46:15] Um, so I would say the music industry is tame compared to those boys.

Payman Langroudi: Really are just. [00:46:20]

Mike Gray: Next level. But it’s, you know, they’re all fantastic, you know, hearts [00:46:25] and that side, but a wild, a wild bunch. But um so music. [00:46:30] Yeah, I didn’t, I was, I wasn’t your typical sort of artist [00:46:35] in that I, I suppose at this point I’m trying. I’m realising that. [00:46:40] Come on, you got to start enjoying this and that. And so again, you know, [00:46:45] I was I was touring with Alabama three and I don’t know um they [00:46:50] famously made a mistake in music is like always take, always play [00:46:55] the long game, take royalties. Um, that side of it. Don’t, don’t go for the cash. Um, [00:47:00] and they um, were approached for the [00:47:05] soundtrack for the Sopranos. Right. And they were offered 80 grand [00:47:10] for the song or royalties and they took the 80 K um, if [00:47:15] they’d taken royalties.

Payman Langroudi: Millions o Sopranos wasn’t famous at that wasn’t famous.

Mike Gray: So in the, [00:47:20] you know, before it’s even a thing. Yeah. Um, and, and so I was, [00:47:25] I was touring with them and I, it felt quite sad because I [00:47:30] started the tour with them and they all came out sort of bright eyed, [00:47:35] bushy tailed. Um, and then, but then you [00:47:40] get the drugs and things like that. And the next day they’re [00:47:45] all like zombies and they’re zombies until 5 p.m. when the next [00:47:50] load of drugs arrives. And that’s getting snorted off the manager’s desk and hell of a show. And they put it on, [00:47:55] which I think in music, a lot of people become dependent on that. It’s like, I can’t perform unless I’m doing [00:48:00] this because otherwise I’m just boring. I haven’t got that side of it. And you know, by the end of the [00:48:05] tour, it’s the same clothes that I started in, and no one’s actually seen any of these [00:48:10] cities because they’ve been sleeping in the tour bus, uh, sleeping off, raving all night. Um, [00:48:15] and yeah, it wasn’t that, so I didn’t fit in in that because, you know, in [00:48:20] my dressing room, it’s like, oh, you know, would you want there just like some tea bags, please? You know, that’d [00:48:25] be me set, you know? And so, uh, yeah, so I was pretty boring in that respect.

Mike Gray: Um, [00:48:30] and so no sort of crazy or too two wild stories. I’ve played some wild gigs, [00:48:35] um, the wildest though being for I won’t name specifics, [00:48:40] but it’s basically the SAS. There was a bunch from about to be shipped out somewhere somewhere [00:48:45] awful. Couldn’t tell me because before I showed up they’re like, oh, can you play this? And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, [00:48:50] sure. And they’re like, okay, right. No, no photographs. I’m like, all right. Yeah, no, don’t tag anything on social media. [00:48:55] Like nothing. I’m like, all right. And then I got there. I had no idea who the audience was. [00:49:00] And like I said, it was just 80, like bloodthirsty, like trained [00:49:05] killers and ah, get some beer in them. Oh my goodness, it’s [00:49:10] wild. There was fighting going off. There was all sorts like trying to play things being thrown. It [00:49:15] was just absolute carnage because I think you’ve got to have something a little bit sort [00:49:20] of screw loose for SAS. Yeah. And that side.

Payman Langroudi: So and all along that bit [00:49:25] of your journey, you were still being a dentist here and there. Yeah. Paying your bills.

Mike Gray: Part time, you know, [00:49:30] two days a week, something like that. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: So one night. One night you’re playing in front of the SAS. [00:49:35] Next minute you’re doing a scale and polish. Yeah yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah [00:49:40] yeah. Nhs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Mike Gray: Save my time. Which was good. You know it got the numbers in. You [00:49:45] know I wouldn’t take it back. I think it’s a different story now. Like before people had approached me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:49:50] take issue with that question. Right. Yeah. Because people say yeah take do your three years on the Nash and get your numbers in. [00:49:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in three years doing anything. Yeah. You would have progressed somewhat, [00:50:00] just like three years doing max facts. Yeah. You progressed. Yeah. Three years doing private. [00:50:05] You would progress three years doing anything. You would have progressed. So, so this notion that Nash [00:50:10] is the place to go to progress, I just think every other country in the world, [00:50:15] they don’t do that. Right.

Mike Gray: So and this is I would have disagreed with you ten years [00:50:20] ago, fully agree with you now because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s changed in the last ten years to that. That’s [00:50:25] the that’s what you’re saying. Yeah.

Mike Gray: You don’t get to do anything now. They’re not getting hands on like before I [00:50:30] was doing crowns, bridges, dentures, extractions. Endo, you did the lot. And [00:50:35] so, you know, you got all those numbers. Now it’s they’re not getting [00:50:40] that hands on. So actually.

Payman Langroudi: Why aren’t they. Because the system doesn’t make [00:50:45] sense.

Mike Gray: Just the contract and that now and everything is now. It’s just okay. Yeah. I [00:50:50] get you in give you an exam, emergency treatment, but anything else is going to have to wait or [00:50:55] just refer it on or bounce it on. It’s just so restrictive now. So no, I couldn’t agree with you more now [00:51:00] it’s a shame. And it’s but so yeah, I was part time, [00:51:05] so I never earned any money as well. It’s always that thing. Oh, dentists, you’re rich. And I was, [00:51:10] I was a dentist who was not rich because I didn’t get the money racing bikes. I just earned [00:51:15] enough to pay for my food and my accommodation. Um, music was the same. And, [00:51:20] and, uh, and so yeah, I’d be, yeah, gigging and I used to use work [00:51:25] to recover from the weekends, which I again now. So maybe it’s an age thing. [00:51:30] I’m 40. I need my weekends to recover from work. Yeah. I need to just just chill out and catch up. Otherwise I’m [00:51:35] in trouble. Whereas it was, I would hit Monday absolutely wiped. [00:51:40] So I would sit there and just go through, do what I needed to do and recharge through [00:51:45] my days working and then back out again. Um, and yeah, very different.

Payman Langroudi: How did this turn [00:51:50] into the expert that I see on social media? [00:51:55]

Mike Gray: Oh, luck. No. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:52:00] mean, you know, the, the, the max factor with the surgical skills. Yeah. But the [00:52:05] restorative side.

Mike Gray: Are I was awful. It’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you learn? What did.

Mike Gray: You learn? So [00:52:10] Covid came along, put a nail in the coffin the music and going back to that, [00:52:15] working hard versus luck. I was sick of working [00:52:20] really hard and getting nothing. Uh, and and maybe I could try again or whatever. [00:52:25] But dentistry is beautiful. Like the harder you work, the more you get. [00:52:30] It’s a straight graph. It’s fantastic. And that’s that’s not to be sniffed at. [00:52:35] And you see loads of people doing these incredible things. And. But it’s only a very small percent. The [00:52:40] vast majority of people who aren’t near the top, like, for example, with the biking where I was kicking outside the top [00:52:45] 30. Um, yeah, it’s a hard life.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re the number 40 dentist [00:52:50] in the world, you’re on fire, right? Oh, unreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gray: 40 dentists in the [00:52:55] UK. Like it’s and it’s just a beautiful thing. You work hard, you get paid more or you progress or you’re there. [00:53:00] Whereas music, I’m busting my balls. And then again, it all goes. And so [00:53:05] I was sick of nothing correlating as it should. Yeah. Um, and so that was when [00:53:10] I always had in the back of my head, like you got dentistry. At some point you’re going to have to knuckle down. Um, we [00:53:15] don’t have to, but it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: A bad guy. You are right. Yeah.

Mike Gray: It’s not a bad fallback. [00:53:20] And so like I said, I absolutely hated it. But as soon as I pulled my finger out of my arse and started [00:53:25] putting that effort into dentistry are the level of satisfaction went straight [00:53:30] up and love what I’m doing. Got into this and got into that and I was very lucky. In [00:53:35] the clinic. I ended up at um in Swansea Parkway clinic in Swansea. Fantastic [00:53:40] clinic, huge clinic. It’s kind of like the gateway to the rest of Wales. There’s nothing [00:53:45] else past that. Stop. So the amount of cases that would [00:53:50] just come that way, whatever you wanted to do, there was cases. And so to, [00:53:55] to hone my skills, there was abundance of patients to sort [00:54:00] of go that way and.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of other experts to talk to. Right? Yeah.

Mike Gray: So it’s one of those places [00:54:05] where there’s a bit of everyone under the roof. Max facts, um, endo perio, uh, [00:54:10] that side of it.

Payman Langroudi: Because I came to your other practice, the lodge. Yeah. Again, very impressive. [00:54:15]

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very, very impressed. Not many.

Mike Gray: I there’s not many practices. We’ve got a bar next [00:54:20] to the surgery.

Payman Langroudi: Beautifully done.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And also, you could see it was [00:54:25] a big centre sort of pride. Was it a specialist private.

Mike Gray: So there’s two halves. [00:54:30] Yeah. The half you came to was like the referral centre and the other half is sort of general dentistry. Yeah. [00:54:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you knuckled down to dentistry. What did you do. What did you do to.

Mike Gray: Again [00:54:40] this is going back to what you said with the photographer. I very much the crazy thing is restorative. [00:54:45] Other than the SHO job I did for a year um in Cardiff. [00:54:50] Um I’m self-taught. Um so I haven’t done a single restorative [00:54:55] course. So aesthetic wise, whether it’s composite or veneers or that side. And [00:55:00] in that I wouldn’t say it’s the way to do it. If someone says to me, you know, what’s the best way to learn? Go [00:55:05] and learn from someone incredible. You know, that is absolutely the best way. And this is where [00:55:10] at the time, like, I don’t need to do that. I’ve been going on courses. Later, I go on surgical courses [00:55:15] and my tunes changed. I’ve kind of feel like I’ve got a little bit too far with the prosthetic side, where I [00:55:20] don’t get good bang for my buck in what I’m going to learn. So less so, though I could still learn [00:55:25] a lot. Um, and so I just used to just get my head down and [00:55:30] just read around it. Research. I always have a few things in my head of when [00:55:35] the right patient comes along, I’m going to try this. So I’m not scared to try new things. But [00:55:40] what I make sure is that the right patient comes along to try it on. [00:55:45] I don’t just try it on the next person in that they’re chilled. It’s a low lip line. Uh, [00:55:50] you know, if it does go wrong, it’s not the end of the world sort of thing. And so that sort [00:55:55] of attitude, I sort of try things. And again, yeah, I always tend to learn the hard way. Um, [00:56:00] but I’ve just sort of developed and things like, you know, composite are [00:56:05] go and just layer some teeth up in my garage, work it out. Like, how am I getting there? If [00:56:10] it’s an instrument that I want or I can’t just make it. So, um, um. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: So I saw that, um, camera thing. Yeah.

Mike Gray: The bracket a [00:56:20] little bit risky?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is it just me or is there something about it?

Mike Gray: Uh, I just again, [00:56:25] the way my brain works is I got into my photography, which again is a great [00:56:30] thing to do. Yeah. Um, not just from advertising yourself on that side, but actually reflection [00:56:35] on your work. Um, and again, yeah, go, go [00:56:40] on. Course. You know, that’s make life simple for yourself. Don’t be stupid [00:56:45] like me and just lock yourself in a room for three days and read everything you can about it and that way. [00:56:50] Um, but that’s and I tried the twin flash brackets. [00:56:55] Um, and I found they either had not enough movement or too much. So I’m like, well go in [00:57:00] the garage, hack up a bit of aluminium and knock one up. And I had this ratty bit of kit [00:57:05] that I used for about a year. And I’m like, actually works. I love to just set and forget. [00:57:10] I haven’t got time for faffing. So and I hate the way with particularly the twin flash brackets, [00:57:15] you put it down and it moves there. And the minute anything moves, your flash is in a different place. You’ve got a different [00:57:20] picture, so your befores and afters aren’t consistent or that side of it. And so I knocked up this [00:57:25] and I was like, it kind of works. I should do a proper job of that. So I did a proper job of it and realised how [00:57:30] much, how hard it is to earn money outside of dentistry. Yeah. It’s not, you know, [00:57:35] as in so try a trying to get stuff made in the UK was a nightmare. Um nobody wants [00:57:40] to work. Um so it took me ages trying to, I got my laser cut in Bridgend, then I got them anodised [00:57:45] up in Birmingham and then, uh, laser etched in Port Talbot. And at the [00:57:50] time, you know, it took forever. And then I’m having to thread stuff myself and put stuff together, [00:57:55] box things up, you get an ordinary and you get your emails, and then you’ve got to run it to the post [00:58:00] office and, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then your overall profit on that item £40. It’s like, yeah. [00:58:05]

Mike Gray: And so again, it makes you go, that’s not bad.

Payman Langroudi: I’d rather do it.

Mike Gray: Hard [00:58:10] living in the real world, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: So, um, so I did a bit of that cool thing about that though, is, [00:58:15] you know, because obviously dentistry and limited company and things like that. Um, as long as you attempt to make [00:58:20] profit at something, uh, you can run that through the business. So I can get tools on my limited company. [00:58:25] I love tools, so I’ve got a lathe in the garage and things like that. So hence why I make [00:58:30] some of my own surgical instruments in that I bought some megabucks and I looked at it and I’m like, [00:58:35] I could make that. That’s. So sure enough, I wanted like a pillar elevator for some of the microsurgery [00:58:40] stuff. So I went in the garage and knocked one up on the lathe and use that in my kit, you know? [00:58:45] Um, and so my brain’s always going like that. And so I’m always trying things, always trying things [00:58:50] different. And I think the nice thing, it was the hard way to try and teach myself [00:58:55] and work it out myself, but then it because I wasn’t being told by anyone [00:59:00] how to do it. And often the danger of that is you get shown how to do it. This [00:59:05] is how it’s done. This is how you always do it. Um, because I hadn’t [00:59:10] been shown by anyone, I’d worked out my own way, which allowed me to approach [00:59:15] it completely, sort of in a different way, which which I. You know, I love for that and [00:59:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful thing. I mean, one of the. We do this course with Depeche Palmer. [00:59:25] Yeah. And young Depeche Palmer was like you. He [00:59:30] hadn’t been on many courses at all. Yeah. And then his mentor told him maybe. [00:59:35] Don’t. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s all original. Yeah. And some of the [00:59:40] insights that he’s come out with are his own. They’re clearly his own. Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:45] And the danger of going on a lot of education if you want to be a teacher. Is that you’re regurgitating [00:59:50] someone else’s work. And for the, you know, you get the delegates that you see [00:59:55] in lots of different courses, they, they can definitely see, you know, where it’s come from. Yeah, yeah. [01:00:00] Whereas we need people like you and him to come up with [01:00:05] totally new ways of looking at it. Um, because [01:00:10] what the hell is progress in the end, right?

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. I mean, there’s been a huge spike. [01:00:15] I would say, um, since digital dentistry has been on the scene, like [01:00:20] the amount of control it can give you and the things because like, again, if you go to the formal [01:00:25] teaching route, articulators. Facebow. Articulator. I haven’t used one for 5 or 6 [01:00:30] years. I do full mouth rehab all the time. You are. I don’t waste of time. Explain that. So [01:00:35] it basically it makes, in my opinion again, I’ll set some people with this. It makes [01:00:40] it more complicated because you’ve got to. You’ve got the added process of taking [01:00:45] a facebow and registering all that side of things. You’re adding cost and lab side of things. You’re also [01:00:50] adding inaccuracy. There’s just none of that you need to do with digital. Um, because [01:00:55] the beauty of digital, you can. All right, maybe articulator you get a [01:01:00] virtual articulator on something like Exocad, which is the dental software again, use that. [01:01:05] Yeah, I do a lot of my own.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean exocad. I mean the virtual articulator. [01:01:10]

Mike Gray: Uh, occasionally. A lot of the time, you don’t need to. You put the tooth in the right place and you’re not going to be [01:01:15] too far off. Um, but the beauty of, of, of digital dentistry is you can transfer. So [01:01:20] I don’t call temporaries temporaries, they’re prototypes and that’s what they are with digital. So [01:01:25] you transfer these prototypes into somebody’s mouth. You can take as long as you want. So the [01:01:30] first full mouth rehab that I approached, um, useless. Didn’t know [01:01:35] what I was doing. Um, as long as you manage the patient’s expectations, which is the biggest thing of any part of [01:01:40] dentistry, managing those expectations, then you [01:01:45] you’re set. So for me on a full mouth rehab, rather than being like, cool, I’m going to prep everything, [01:01:50] put some temporaries on, see how it’s going, and then go to the finals. I’d be like, [01:01:55] oh, this is really difficult. So we’re probably going to take a couple of months to get this bite right [01:02:00] on that side. And so you manage those expectations. And so then I was able to fart around [01:02:05] for as long as I wanted to get it right. And basically you prep the teeth, you put your [01:02:10] prototypes in place and you get your occlusion and everything right where you want. So for me, I [01:02:15] like to put the aesthetics where I want them first, and then I want to make the occlusion work to that aesthetic. [01:02:20] So then I go into the function and you can get your [01:02:25] occlusion exactly where you want it just from tweaking it chairside. And once it’s perfect [01:02:30] and again, if you want, you can send the patient away for a month and, you know, keep dialling it in, make sure [01:02:35] nothing’s broken. And when it’s you feel it’s perfect. Whether you’re reorganising or not, you just [01:02:40] scan. Yeah, you scan that and you, there’s a few little tricks in order to ensure [01:02:45] the accuracy of overlaying scans on one another is good. Um, but if you what. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are they, what are.

Mike Gray: They? Oh, just little things that you sort of work out. Like if you’re the [01:02:55] hard thing with laying scans over one another is a point of reference.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:03:00] like a three dimensional point of reference.

Mike Gray: Yeah. So teeth are great for that because they’re hard and they don’t [01:03:05] move and they’re accurate. But if you prep them all well, you’ve just destroyed all your reference points.

Payman Langroudi: So attention [01:03:10] to that fact.

Mike Gray: So little things like if you’re scanning, get a load of the palette. It’s [01:03:15] not the most accurate, but it’s not going to change as much as the sort of buckle surfaces. So that’s one extra. If [01:03:20] I’m doing a full mouth rehab, I like to if I can leave the back teeth untouched, I can easily [01:03:25] come back and do those at the end. So again, you’ve kept your points of reference posteriorly. If you’re prepping [01:03:30] crowns at the front, when you fit your temporaries, just leave the margin showing on the palatal. [01:03:35] So you’ve got another hard point of reference. So you’ve kind of got this three point, uh, match up [01:03:40] with, uh, with your scans. And so they actually match up, which means then you can [01:03:45] accurately record the occlusion. So for example, on my prototypes, I’ll leave the articulating marks. [01:03:50] So the lab have.

Payman Langroudi: Oh before scanning. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Gray: So you leave them on. So they’ve literally [01:03:55] got blue red marks where the occlusion where the guidance isn’t it. Oh, so you know, [01:04:00] okay, I need to get this perfect and there’s a little slice tool they can adapt [01:04:05] the ceramic to. With pretty much 100% accurate 99.99, you [01:04:10] know, fractions of a millimetre out. So accurate they can copy that. And as long as you’re transferring [01:04:15] things accurately, then you’ll come back with the exact occlusion that you had in your prototypes, [01:04:20] which is crazy. So you’re fitting stuff and having perfect canine guidance and all that side. And [01:04:25] there’s just no stress, there’s no stress. And, and I hate that about myself in that when I started [01:04:30] the full mouth rehabs, I’d be like, I can’t wait to get to a stage where I’m not stressing before every appointment. [01:04:35] This is horrible. I’m like, ah, and as soon as I get there, because now, like full mouth rehab does not stress [01:04:40] me. And I’m like, all right, I’m a bit bored now. And so then I’m doing something else. And, and [01:04:45] stupidly, I opened the implant can like, unless you’re willing to dive [01:04:50] in.

Payman Langroudi: Implants is all or nothing.

Mike Gray: Leave it alone. Oh my goodness. And I was slow getting to [01:04:55] it because of the surgical background. And I did a lot of soft tissue stuff and things even before placing. I’ve been [01:05:00] restoring them for way before I started placing. Um, and so I kind of did everything a little [01:05:05] bit ass backwards, but I’m on that implant side now. And yeah, I’ve been at it a couple of years and love it.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:05:10] would you be mad if you didn’t go into the implants, though, with all of your surgical background? You know, [01:05:15] because it’s just, yeah, especially like where you are and all that, you know, the competitions. Yeah. [01:05:20] It needs there’s, there’s a supply issue. Yeah. You need, you need people. [01:05:25] Why is it, what do you think is the difference between someone like you? Who how many [01:05:30] full mouth rehabs do you do now? Like, uh, how often do you do you do it?

Mike Gray: It’s the different [01:05:35] I because I get bored doing the same thing. I do a [01:05:40] lot of different things. And so re like a full mouth rehab, I’ll [01:05:45] have, you know, sort of maybe one going a month or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: So someone like you, the difference in someone like [01:05:50] you, who’s, who’s throwing yourself in, reinventing the wheel, you know, [01:05:55] like making your own tricks and tips and tricks up. And then I come across [01:06:00] a bunch of people paralysed by anxiety about being [01:06:05] sued and, and all that. Like you could if you could think to yourself, Jesus, [01:06:10] dude, I’ve made my own instruments. Yeah, I’ve put this into this [01:06:15] guy’s mouth. What if something goes wrong? Yeah, but you’re not thinking that, is it? The fact that [01:06:20] you’ve been through these much harder things that makes dentistry look a bit more like child’s [01:06:25] play?

Mike Gray: I mean, that’s a good point in that I get stressed, I definitely get stressed.

Payman Langroudi: And what stresses. [01:06:30]

Mike Gray: You? Um, I the biggest thing is, is when [01:06:35] I mess up or I don’t do as well as I feel I should have. And that’s not necessarily healthy. And I think [01:06:40] a lot of us are unhealthy in that way as sort of self-criticism and beating ourselves up. Um, but that’s [01:06:45] probably the biggest thing when, when I know I can’t blame it on anything or anyone but [01:06:50] myself, that’s when I’m like, oof, I’m gonna have to take five minutes. And I used to struggle. It [01:06:55] used to play on a bit, but now it’s like, all right, I’ll have a sulk. I’ll sit in those emotions and I will [01:07:00] get past it. But it’s a good point, and I think a lot of it comes [01:07:05] to calculated risk. So you’re going back to the mountain bikes. Um, it’s like, [01:07:10] oh, you know, aren’t you scared of crashing? You are scared of falling off your bike or that side of things. And, [01:07:15] and it’s no, you’re doing it day in, day out. And it’s, you’ve built your skill up to a level [01:07:20] where it’s a calculated risk. And so it’s, it’s the same as, you know, what [01:07:25] was it like when you drove a car for the first time? It’s scary as hell. Like you don’t shit your pants every time [01:07:30] you go in a car. Now you respect it, but it’s that side. And so I suppose it’s that sort of perspective. [01:07:35] It’s like, you know, and for example, the downhill race, you fly all the way to, uh, [01:07:40] you know, uh, you know, Canada or anywhere across the world, you’ve got to, you [01:07:45] sat on the start line, you’ve got a TV camera in your face, you’ve got one run three minutes to get it right and [01:07:50] putting your life on the line. Um, that’s the sort of pressure, you know, or you’re [01:07:55] on stage or that side of it, um, or playing for somebody in your living room, [01:08:00] you know. Uh, and that’s that sort of pressure.

Payman Langroudi: And so it seems a little bit easier than those things. [01:08:05] Yeah.

Mike Gray: But then it’s down under. I still respect it in a [01:08:10] healthy way. And I, and I think a lot of us don’t realise how hard it is and how stressful it is. It’s, [01:08:15] it’s just insane. Yeah. It’s and it sounds really bad because, um, [01:08:20] my wife’s American, I met her in, um, through the music, so, [01:08:25] you know, good thing out of the music. I was in Nashville, I was doing some songwriting there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, was she like a groupie?

Mike Gray: Uh, no, not at all. Not [01:08:30] at all. Just unimpressed. Um, I met her at a little dive bar in Nashville, [01:08:35] and I managed to convince her that Newport was better than Nashville.

Payman Langroudi: Where everything is.

Mike Gray: Now. But, [01:08:40] um. So, uh. Yeah. So, uh, it’s. [01:08:45] Oh, where was I going with that? I got, got caught up [01:08:50] in, in my wife being mad at me, and I’ve lost my train of thought.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is difficult.

Mike Gray: Oh, yeah, that [01:08:55] was it. And so this year we opened up. Uh. Up last year, now 25, we opened up an Airbnb in [01:09:00] Nashville. Um, okay. And, but that’s a project, you know, I give you some cash for it and that [01:09:05] sort of thing. And so she’s, she’s now responsible. And, and she was getting stressed and secretly, [01:09:10] I enjoyed it a little bit until that stress started getting taken out on me because I didn’t [01:09:15] realise how much stress I coped with on a daily basis. Um, [01:09:20] and just took it as normal. And the vast majority of [01:09:25] people don’t, uh, on that side.

Payman Langroudi: And so when I stopped dentistry for [01:09:30] five years and then started again the first two [01:09:35] weeks, you, you suddenly realise, oh my God, is this what [01:09:40] I used to do? Yeah, yeah. And just turning up bitch.

Mike Gray: Oh [01:09:45] man.

Payman Langroudi: And to turn up then, then now, now on, on stage for [01:09:50] that many hours. Yeah. And the weird thing about it was I was, I was trying to do enlighten [01:09:55] at the same time. Yeah. The only time you’ve got is just like weird, like lunchtime [01:10:00] or. It depends how you run your book. Right? I used to run long, long appointments, [01:10:05] so I used to get like 15, 20 minutes here and there. Yeah. And if you want to do anything, at the end of the [01:10:10] day, you’re pretty much burnt out. Yeah. Especially in private. I found private, [01:10:15] you know, would burn your brain. Yeah. Nhs would burn your body almost. Yeah. It [01:10:20] was that hard. Yeah. Your soul. Yeah. Um, so you’re right. It [01:10:25] it is a lot of stress. And the empathy side is important [01:10:30] and tiring. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve said this before, my, my cousin who I saw last [01:10:35] night, he’s a, he’s an eye surgeon. Yeah. He says when, when the patient’s not either [01:10:40] heavily sedated or, or GA, he has a much more stressful [01:10:45] day than when he’s doing a GA list. Right. Because he goes but la inside people’s eyes. Yeah. [01:10:50] And that anxiety comes and you know, we’ve got that at a level continuously [01:10:55] all the time.

Mike Gray: And unfortunately, everyone hates you, even if they’re nice [01:11:00] about it. Oh well. Big change from my practice now though, which I’ll come on to. But have you heard of like, [01:11:05] you must have heard of compassion fatigue?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And your mental health [01:11:10] wise.

Mike Gray: Yeah. And so that’s, that’s a real thing in like the therapy world where everyone’s coming and [01:11:15] trauma dumping on you. And if you’re not careful, you’ll soak it up like a sponge. So like therapists [01:11:20] and that they get up and they have different ways to combat it. Like something might just be stand up, shake your arms and [01:11:25] legs or run your hands under some sort of running water. They check in with their own therapists [01:11:30] every couple of weeks. And in dentistry, we get that every day. It’s like even [01:11:35] the the there’s plenty of people that outright be like, I hate you. I’m [01:11:40] like, oof, okay. And then, but there’s other people that are really polite about it, [01:11:45] but all their body language is telling you, I’m scared of you, I hate you. Um, and [01:11:50] you take so much.

Payman Langroudi: So funny that we take that personally. I mean, I don’t. [01:11:55]

Mike Gray: Like the massive difference now.

Payman Langroudi: Just the words themselves.

Mike Gray: So I purely do, like I said, [01:12:00] aesthetic and surgical dentistry, it’s all elective side of things. Yeah. Everyone [01:12:05] wants to be there. So nobody moans about the injection. Nobody moans about paying, nobody moans [01:12:10] about that. It’s it’s a completely different approach. And I didn’t realise that big wave [01:12:15] that was lifted. And when I started seeing these patients versus my [01:12:20] average day, and I’m doing way more complex and difficult stuff, but that burden is way lighter. [01:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: You’re right on.

Mike Gray: That.

Payman Langroudi: Side. The other thing is, uh, my, my, [01:12:30] um, two kids had ortho. Yeah, one normal ortho [01:12:35] and the other Dental monitoring ortho. Yeah. And Dental monitoring ortho [01:12:40] only visited five times or something. Yeah, yeah. And as a dentist, you [01:12:45] think, oh, that’s like the number of hours that she spent with my daughters. Not many hours. And we paid all [01:12:50] this money, but from the from the other side of it. Hell. Great man. Like going to the dentist. [01:12:55] Yeah. Is not pleasant. How much we think we make our waiting rooms nice. [01:13:00] And yeah, it’s not a pleasant going anywhere. It’s not pleasant to somebody.

Mike Gray: That enjoys that there. The scary patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:13:05] yeah. Like going to the hairdresser isn’t pleasant. Like spending.

Mike Gray: Time. Like people [01:13:10] hate the dentist. Oh my my, this is my bubble, my personal space. And you’re in.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Mike Gray: You know, you can tell [01:13:15] I don’t like the hairdresser. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s it’s pleasant going to a restaurant or going to a doing [01:13:20] some sports or going to a show or it’s, it’s not pleasant going to any form of therapist, [01:13:25] right? It’s like, you know, but we fool ourselves because we’re having sometimes meaningful relationships [01:13:30] with the patients. We fool ourselves into thinking they’re having as much fun as we are. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And [01:13:35] that’s, and that’s why I think I love, you know, education. I think that’s so important. [01:13:40] You know, we were talking about before. So for example, the course I run poise protocol. Um, what’s it called. [01:13:45] Poise protocol poise poise. Yeah. So path of insertion and structural enhancement. It’s basically [01:13:50] that goes in my head the minute I approach anything indirect. It doesn’t matter what it is [01:13:55] because I’m asking myself, cool. So is there a path of insertion for the ceramic? [01:14:00] Yes or no? Do I need to create one? And structural enhancement. You know, is there enough strength [01:14:05] in the material I’m using and the tooth that I’m putting on? And when you think about it like that, you’re [01:14:10] always going to do the right thing for the tooth. And what the crazy thing, which it blows my mind, [01:14:15] which I feel everyone should know from the aesthetic side, is you [01:14:20] can provide ceramic veneers so, so minimally invasive [01:14:25] in that way. And it’s, I think I’ve gone full [01:14:30] circle in like everyone’s done composite, everyone jumps on composite and composite is [01:14:35] great. It is fantastic. It has its place.

Payman Langroudi: It’s fantastic. But you wouldn’t have it in your [01:14:40] own mouth, isn’t it? I mean, I’ve got it. My front teeth, my teeth.

Mike Gray: Have had a hammering, you know, again [01:14:45] relating to lifestyle.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but tell me, explain it to me because so you’re saying a virtually [01:14:50] no prep. Yeah. So indirect porcelain veneer that you’re bringing [01:14:55] in in a, the path of insertion is not, not the normal path.

Mike Gray: So again. [01:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you’re.

Mike Gray: Saying? When I started looking into that, because again, I was sick of comments like if anyone who does a lot [01:15:05] of composite, I don’t care what people are telling you with courses, the good educators will tell you the truth [01:15:10] about composite and that it’s fantastic, but you’re going to get chips, you’re going to get stains unforgiving. [01:15:15] Yeah, absolutely. And and it has its place. It’s perfect for anything that for me that it isn’t full [01:15:20] coverage, it’s composites. Great. Anything that’s full coverage. So, you [01:15:25] know, veneer ceramics, ceramics, way better. I, I had [01:15:30] one veneer fail in the last five years. I do not have veneer fractures or problems [01:15:35] or stains in my diary. It’s just not there. I am way less stressed with the ceramic [01:15:40] because I know I’m going to put that there. I have my protocols right and I’m not going to see him again. It’s [01:15:45] you know, it’s fantastic. And basically when I started looking into the whole prep list, because [01:15:50] I don’t, I like to try and be as minimally invasive as possible, which is different as an aesthetic dentist. I don’t [01:15:55] use cosmetic. That’s a dirty word in America. Um, so aesthetic dentist [01:16:00] side. And, um, when I approached it, I went to the lab a lucky [01:16:05] again in that a good relationship with my lab.

Mike Gray: And I got a really good lab technician, Anthony Bailey and Cardiff, [01:16:10] um, prime ceramics and we’re good buddies now because I’ve been back and forth for years and, [01:16:15] um, so I’m in there pretty much most weeks and he’s taught me all my ceramics. Like I do all my ceramic, [01:16:20] I do all the CAD side. He’s been my mentor through all of that. And when I first approached [01:16:25] him about ceramic, he’s like, um, felspathic. That’s the cool thing. That’s like [01:16:30] the sort of the, the creme de la creme sort of, of that side. And to [01:16:35] find someone to do feldspathic, um, well is difficult. Um, [01:16:40] you need a really talented clinician. And then when you look at the flexural strength, it’s like 70 [01:16:45] megapascals. It’s less than flowable composite. Um, and obviously you put it on a solid [01:16:50] base. You get that strength. So he said to me, call Feldspathic is really weak and it’s really hard for [01:16:55] someone to do it. And in the dentistry side of things, we’re kind of told, oh, stars need to align [01:17:00] to do prep less because it’s just not for everyone. And so [01:17:05] immediately I was like, well, I don’t want to dedicate my time and effort learning [01:17:10] about a material that was invented in the 70s that’s difficult to do [01:17:15] and not very strong.

Mike Gray: So I’m like, okay, well, how are we going to get the benefits of that out [01:17:20] of modern materials? And so you look at like the lithium disilicate urimax is like your sort of your trade [01:17:25] name and things like that. And, um, you can place, [01:17:30] uh, lithium disilicate 0.3 mils thick, which [01:17:35] is nothing. So if you’re not prepping, you’re not exactly adding massive bulk. When you look at margins, [01:17:40] okay, well, we need a margin. In my head, it was like, okay, I have to prep a margin. [01:17:45] Otherwise there’s going to be a big ledge. Oh yeah. And you’re going to have bacteria in the you look [01:17:50] at the papers. Um, you get more longevity with, with propolis [01:17:55] because you’ve left all that enamel there. Gingiva is healthy. And again, so you look at bop concepts [01:18:00] and that side of it, there’s no margins there and [01:18:05] everything’s completely healthy. It’s more about that sort of profile of what’s going on. You look at implants, you [01:18:10] know, a huge obviously it needs to be the right shape. But, you know, there’s no such thing as [01:18:15] a margin there. So you don’t actually need margins. And then with digitally you can act.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s an [01:18:20] actual ledge.

Mike Gray: Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: A very thin one.

Mike Gray: No, no, no, no, there’s no ledge knowledge. You don’t prep a [01:18:25] margin at all.

Payman Langroudi: No. But so now you’ve got this veneer on there. How, how is it as long as you.

Mike Gray: Have [01:18:30] a nice smooth transition onto it. So not a square edge, then things are happy. And [01:18:35] again, digitally you can accurately place them. 0.3mm Subgingivally super [01:18:40] easy to do that with, with modern sort of digital scanners. And the beauty of it is [01:18:45] with modern scanners, you can scan a mouth. And when I say the stars need to align [01:18:50] path of insertion, point, path of insertion, you have to have a path of insertion for the ceramic to go [01:18:55] on. When you actually analyse it digitally, you can move it around and roughly [01:19:00] for a veneer you coming from the labial, but I like to come a bit of like 45 degrees to the incisal. [01:19:05] If you come to labial, gingiva starts getting in the way, but by immediately coming labial, you’ve been minimally [01:19:10] invasive. You have to remove less tooth structure. So you start fighting around with these scans, [01:19:15] um approaching from the labial. And the beautiful thing is they have [01:19:20] buttons that you can identify undercuts. See it’s not meant for [01:19:25] this. It’s meant for checking your prep. And have I got rid of it. You just put that on [01:19:30] on prep tooth, move it around a bit. It shows you exactly where the undercuts are.

Payman Langroudi: For that path of insertion. [01:19:35]

Mike Gray: That path of insertion. You change the view to path Preferences and you can fart around and it [01:19:40] shows you exactly where those paths of insertions are. So what I do then is I work out the best approach [01:19:45] for each tooth, the um as far as path of insertion. And [01:19:50] it highlights in blue depending on what sort of software you’re using. Um, but most [01:19:55] scanners will have an undercut button on there and you can create a preparation map and it, [01:20:00] it shows you exactly the bit of tooth you need to remove in order to create a path for insertion. [01:20:05] And what you will realise is it’s bugger all apps. So a full arch [01:20:10] of preps will take me five minutes in that you just get a little disk and you [01:20:15] go, yeah, yeah, according to your preparation map and a veneer is going to go on there. Um, [01:20:20] and, and other than structural enhancement with veneers, sharp line angles, [01:20:25] things like that, that you need to smooth off so you don’t have crack propagation. There’s nothing to do. [01:20:30] So a prep mouth looks untouched. I don’t numb them up. I do it as a point to [01:20:35] demonstrate to the patient, I’m not hacking your teeth to bits. And so it’s [01:20:40] incredibly minimally invasive. Like truly invasive. Because my argument against composite [01:20:45] is, you know, I think it’s false advertising when you say teeth are untouched [01:20:50] because this isn’t going to last forever. What happens when you take it off and they say, oh, I’ll be careful and [01:20:55] I’ll take that. Even polishing by nature is removing tooth structure. That’s the act of polishing. And [01:21:00] I see cases where they’ve had 2 or 3 lots of composite that I’m redoing. [01:21:05] And you take that composite off. That’s not a virgin tooth underneath. Someone’s been a bit slack or a bit rushed [01:21:10] or a bit lazy or just they’ve had so much. It is not an untouched tooth. And so you do that [01:21:15] 3 or 4 times, or you have ceramic where you’ve carefully according [01:21:20] digitally and super accurately recontoured this tooth and you’ve [01:21:25] got a veneer that’s going to last 15, 20 years and you’re not touching. And so it’s.

Payman Langroudi: How do you avoid the tooth [01:21:30] being bulky?

Mike Gray: It’s not 0.3 mil like.

Payman Langroudi: Across the whole thing.

Mike Gray: Yeah. You can have [01:21:35] 0.3 mil thickness and, and so that side of it, and obviously you can thicken it out way more [01:21:40] like the big thing for me. Yeah. The big thing for me on volume is lip line. [01:21:45] If somebody, as a general rule of thumb, if somebody’s got a high lip line, you want to keep the volume down because otherwise they look like [01:21:50] those sort of stuck on bits of teeth. Um, but yeah, you’re adding.

Payman Langroudi: Typically, are you doing [01:21:55] sort of a line bleach then that.

Mike Gray: Oh yeah, I’m a massive pro ortho before, like I [01:22:00] said, it’s uh, if someone’s, uh, the question I asked myself is, is this [01:22:05] patient going to die with their teeth by the time I finish with them? And if they are [01:22:10] older, I will give them the option of prepping versus not prepping. I still prefer not to prep. So even if somebody comes [01:22:15] to me in their 50s and they’re like, I want full mouth veneers, I’m like, cool, give me a good reason not [01:22:20] to do ortho because everyone’s life is easier. Uh, you know, my life as far as preps, [01:22:25] masking whatever is easier. But I say, look, best thing for you to do is to ortho first. But if they [01:22:30] say no, I’m like, fine. As long as it’s not crazy and I’m not hacking away too much to structure. I’ll be like, cool, I’ll [01:22:35] prep a younger patient. I don’t even give him a choice. I was like, no, you want veneers? It’s also first or nothing. Um, [01:22:40] and that side and again, coming back to the prep list, way easier to [01:22:45] do a full mouth than it is 1 or 2 teeth talking about that book. Because if you start back here, 0.3 [01:22:50] mil doesn’t look like you’ve added anything, um, onto the front, even if you start at the back. So works [01:22:55] a lot easier with, with, uh, sort of full teeth and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So, and then [01:23:00] when you come to cement, um, each one of them is going in at a different angle. [01:23:05]

Mike Gray: No, you be pretty much going at that sort of 4545. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: Generally.

Mike Gray: It’s your conventional veneer approach when you just wiggle it around a little bit [01:23:15] to, to keep it minimal, that’s all you’re doing. And you don’t want to go too [01:23:20] crazy with your approach because particularly on veneers, if you’re going too far from like, say, [01:23:25] laterally you, that’s when you have to start or I have to cement this one first and then that one. So [01:23:30] you want to keep it fairly, but again, it will blow your mind. I haven’t got my laptop [01:23:35] in my bag. I’ll show you after like how minimal it is that you’re actually to create [01:23:40] a path of insertion for every single tooth in the head. The vast majority, like you’ll have 4 or 5 teeth. Don’t touch. [01:23:45] Don’t even touch them. Um, and so that that world of prep is [01:23:50] just rather than being able to do it on 5% of people, you’re up to like 90% [01:23:55] of people. And the cool thing is, you know, I’d love to save enamel [01:24:00] everywhere in that the number of cases I see now where somebody’s prepped a full mouth, [01:24:05] um, conventional veneers, you’d think could I’ve done that a different way and that side. [01:24:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think without, without prep you’ve got a much better bond, right.

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. No, I [01:24:15] mean, because the main success of a veneer is, I mean obviously you can look at occlusion and that not [01:24:20] to enamel. Yeah. It’s it’s that bond. And and you’ve left it all there. It’s there’s acres of it. [01:24:25] You couldn’t have a better starting point as to where you want to go. So yeah, [01:24:30] it’s awesome in that side and digital makes that all possible.

Payman Langroudi: Did you come up with this yourself? [01:24:35]

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like there wasn’t another guy in Peru who I saw.

Mike Gray: I mean, there’s a lot of things that [01:24:40] I think I’ve been clever and invented, and I’m probably not the first person, but.

Payman Langroudi: But you just came up with this yourself. You just step by [01:24:45] step by step.

Mike Gray: Five years. Yeah. That that sort of way. Interesting. And it’s, it’s, it’s, I love [01:24:50] it. I absolutely love it.

Payman Langroudi: So is that what your course teaches this?

Mike Gray: Yeah, yeah. And it’s basically I don’t [01:24:55] teach the conventional prep side because you can get that everywhere else. But the whole workflow of, [01:25:00] you know, planning to smile design to, um, actually, [01:25:05] yeah, executing and cementing and, and sort of all that side. [01:25:10] Um, but then yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d you run the course?

Mike Gray: So I run that a lodge, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Lodge.

Mike Gray: Itself. Yeah. Lodge [01:25:15] itself. I like to keep smaller numbers. Um, we’ve been three years sold out now, which is cool. [01:25:20] Um, I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Do it once a year.

Mike Gray: About twice a year, twice a year. So I need to [01:25:25] release some dates. Um, but again, going back to the core side, [01:25:30] I love to create a space where people can just come and speak to other [01:25:35] like minded people, because such a stressful profession as we talked about it. And so come [01:25:40] and let your hair down. If you want to learn, you can learn. But you know, I put people I got to stop because [01:25:45] I don’t make any money. I don’t that’s the business side of me that’s useless. But I put people up in [01:25:50] a five star hotel, nice food, getting some wine tasting or whisky tasting. And [01:25:55] I had an ice cream van and barbecue at the last one. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think, I think, I [01:26:00] think education needs a shake up.

Mike Gray: Oh no. But.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in this sense, it’s awesome.

Mike Gray: And I [01:26:05] love what you were talking about earlier, where you’re effectively getting a sort of a really [01:26:10] cool space to get everyone together.

Payman Langroudi: So we’re doing this thing at Ministry of Sound. Yeah. Which [01:26:15] I think you’re going to be at. So that would be great. Yeah. Yeah, that’ll be great. Check your diary. Yeah, [01:26:20] it’s.

Mike Gray: I think I did, like I said, with the American wife, as long as it’s not you saying it’s June.

Payman Langroudi: June, June [01:26:25] 30th.

Mike Gray: June 13th? Yes, as long as it’s not July 4th, Independence Day, you’re there. I [01:26:30] should be there. I set, I’m set. Otherwise, I’m on a lake, eating hot dogs, drinking beer and watching fireworks.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [01:26:35] so interesting. Like, you know, the guy who invented Invisalign was some sort of banker. [01:26:40] Yeah. And it’s sometimes you have to zoom out or not be in [01:26:45] it. Yeah. To come up with solutions that are, you know, like, in a [01:26:50] way, it’s so interesting. You haven’t been on any cosmetics courses or particularly hadn’t [01:26:55] been on any cosmetic courses by the time you started coming up with this solution. Yeah. Um, [01:27:00] and yet look at it from a different angle. And I’m quite surprised at what you’re saying [01:27:05] about the margin that the, the margin isn’t an issue. Yeah. And, but you’re right in that, in that sort of [01:27:10] vertebrate world, we. Yeah.

Mike Gray: No you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: No one’s worried.

Mike Gray: About. I can show you, you know three [01:27:15] five year post-doc with. And we can all we all know what healthy gingiva looks like. Yeah. Brand new. Uh, [01:27:20] and, uh, yeah, it’s it’s, uh, The biggest question I get [01:27:25] whenever I talk on it is, is like, what about the gum health? Yeah. And because [01:27:30] it just doesn’t make sense. And that’s where you kind of condition. But it’s. Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:35] are you bad at?

Mike Gray: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Bad dentistry.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [01:27:40] Um, things that involve patience, as [01:27:45] in not physical patience. The the act of being patient. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Short. [01:27:50]

Mike Gray: So Endo, for example. I’m good at endo. I was been a while. Yeah. Um, [01:27:55] I opened my first tooth over the Christmas period, um, for a long time and I was, I was, I [01:28:00] was, I’m working like, where are these canals? How many are there? Okay. Right. It’s a molar. Uh, but [01:28:05] it came back. Oh yeah. No, we got out [01:28:10] of pain, so succeeded there. But um, things like endo, [01:28:15] endo and I did great until it [01:28:20] got fiddly And I just got too impatient and I would snap something [01:28:25] or ledge something. And that was it. Like orthodontics. I, I [01:28:30] want it done now. I want it done now. And this is something I struggle with [01:28:35] on the surgical side because you have to wait for everything to mature. And I don’t. So like, you [01:28:40] know, I get a case I’m really excited to finish, but I’m going to do this bone graft now and then I’m going to wait four months and [01:28:45] then I’m going to sort of vertically graft the tissue and wait another four months. And then I’m going to condition [01:28:50] it to develop the Pontic site. And so 12, 18 months later I might get to the end. [01:28:55] And, and I struggle with that because I just want it now. And so yeah, anything [01:29:00] that sort of involves patience is my mind goes because I just want it.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:29:05] about Lifewise? What’s the like.

Mike Gray: Failure?

Payman Langroudi: I’d say.

Mike Gray: It’s failure. [01:29:10] Um, in that.

Payman Langroudi: Punish yourself mentally.

Mike Gray: No, it’s I’m just I [01:29:15] think I should imagine there’s a lot of dentists like this is. And you’re a high achiever, [01:29:20] right, to get into dental school. So you’ve done well in school. You’ve done well in university and [01:29:25] on that side. And so dealing with failure isn’t [01:29:30] something you’re used to. And this is where I suffered in the music. Uh, [01:29:35] the setbacks and things there. It’s I expected, oh, you work hard, you do this [01:29:40] and you pass. Um, and so that door opens and you move on [01:29:45] and somebody goes, nah, I don’t like that. Closes the door. I [01:29:50] couldn’t deal with that. It’s like I’m a failure. I’m no good. I’m not. And whereas you look at [01:29:55] people that deal with failure, which is most of life and most of business, it’s handling that rejection. [01:30:00] Uh, and, and you do because it’s something like, is it the Mormons? Like there’s a real, uh, [01:30:05] high percentage of the sort of the entrepreneurs, um, because they spend [01:30:10] first two years of their adulthood get sent on like pilgrimage and, and door [01:30:15] to door rejection, everyone slamming the door in their face. And so somebody [01:30:20] else closing a door. It means nothing to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Somebody closes a door on me, I fall apart. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: I saw this thing on probably on TikTok or something. It was like, if you if your kid [01:30:30] is top of his class and good at sports and all that, he hasn’t come across resilience [01:30:35] against rejection and failure, you know? And [01:30:40] I thought about my daughter, like she, she goes to ballet. She goes to ballet every week, every week. [01:30:45] She’s not the top of her class at ballet. She’s not here, but she keeps on going. Yeah. And I [01:30:50] was thinking, man, you know, if you give that much time to something, at least give it to something that you’re going to be like really [01:30:55] into or whatever. And then when I saw this, I thought, at least she’s building that muscle, [01:31:00] right? That muscle of resilience muscle, you know, which is a really important thing [01:31:05] in adulthood. Right? Definitely.

Mike Gray: Because unfortunately, that is life. Yeah. You know, [01:31:10] and.

Payman Langroudi: You get knocked back in life.

Mike Gray: Right? Yeah. So much. And, and that side. And that’s where [01:31:15] I wish I’m getting better. Um, but I’m so I’m building [01:31:20] that resilience a bit late.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in this question here of on in any endeavour, whether [01:31:25] it’s one of your ones that even or even, you know, photography or whatever in any [01:31:30] endeavour. Yeah. How much should you rely on resilience and just keep going and [01:31:35] keep going and keep going. And how do you know when’s the time to pivot? You [01:31:40] know, and, and I guess there’s no clear answer to that question. Yeah, [01:31:45] but but for instance, with me, the notion of giving up on something just doesn’t [01:31:50] cross my mind. So I tend to hold on to things a bit too long. Yeah, yeah. [01:31:55] Like sometimes my, my business partner, he’s great. He’s unemotional about he’s just like, let’s kill that product. [01:32:00] Yeah. And I just, I, I’m just so attached to it.

Mike Gray: But that’s, and that’s where I’d make a terrible CEO. [01:32:05] Um, I think I see myself as that I’m the type of person that [01:32:10] a CEO would love to get on board because they’re just fanatical and whatever. And [01:32:15] they work hard. Um, but that’s the whole point of, you know, them [01:32:20] trying to make it successful. You want lots of people around it. You can’t do all that yourself joking.

Payman Langroudi: You’re bad at [01:32:25] delegating or trusting other people.

Mike Gray: Terrible. Again.

Payman Langroudi: Control freak.

Mike Gray: Yes. [01:32:30] It’s less a control freak. And it’s again, without sounding too arrogant, I’m good at a lot of things. And so [01:32:35] to do a good job, often it’s, you know, you want a job, you probably do it yourself. And [01:32:40] so a lot of the time, I do a lot of things myself because of the quality or level that [01:32:45] I want it done. However you just.

Payman Langroudi: Limiting. Yeah.

Mike Gray: You can’t, you hit a [01:32:50] ceiling very quickly.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I’ve learned here is that if you’re giving a job to someone, [01:32:55] by the way, I’m not the best delegator. My best partner is excellent at it. I’m really not that great. But [01:33:00] if you give a job to someone, something. Let’s take it like, I don’t know, I was running the social media of [01:33:05] enlightened myself. Yeah. In the first whenever five years of social media. Yeah. [01:33:10] Right. Then it got to a point where I’d give it to someone. There’s going to be a dip. Yeah, there’s going to be a [01:33:15] period of time where that person’s doing it worse than what you were doing it. Yeah. Yeah. [01:33:20] And you’ve got to be like, allow that dip to happen. Bearing [01:33:25] in mind once you’ve done it a few times, that at one point that person’s going to be doing it much better than you. Yeah. Because [01:33:30] that person’s 100% focussed on that thing. Yeah. But some perfectionist types, [01:33:35] they can’t face that dip. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember like seeing some of our output [01:33:40] at that moment thinking, oh, you know, that’s not my brand. Yeah. Yeah. But [01:33:45] and I think through laziness, I didn’t address it. Right. But then this person ended up being much better than [01:33:50] me at that. Yeah. Yeah. I went on some course, you know, like completely focussed on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And it’s, [01:33:55] I think my wife’s good for that one in that I will fret over like stupid things. And she [01:34:00] used to, she did jewellery design for about ten years. And in that world everyone’s stealing everyone else’s [01:34:05] ideas and this sort of thing. And I’m like, I’m trying to come up with these inventions. And like, I worry that this [01:34:10] leaked or something like that, I’m like, oh, it’s going to get copied. And she’s like, shut up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re [01:34:15] fine.

Mike Gray: Um, on that side. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Chuck, are you going to do your own practice? [01:34:20]

Mike Gray: Should really potentially purely because I [01:34:25] would love to have that control of how things are. But then again, there’s [01:34:30] so many things that I love to spend my time doing now, which I know I would have to sacrifice. [01:34:35] That’s true. And, um, so for example, again, going back, I suppose I say I’m [01:34:40] bad at delegating, but then I think with my education, like obviously now I’m taking it seriously. [01:34:45] Um, I’ve been smarter about that in that, for example, [01:34:50] I gatecrashed, I forget what university it was and they had like a sort of a paper reading [01:34:55] day, um, a literary review and um, the person leading [01:35:00] it at the start said, you know, why do we make you do this? Um, and [01:35:05] it was because even though you can read summaries of these papers [01:35:10] and all that, and it’s an abstract put for you. You. If unless you read it [01:35:15] the paper yourself, you won’t generate your response. And it might be different [01:35:20] to what somebody else has done. And I think that’s a valid point. But for me, I’m [01:35:25] just going to ask somebody that I trust that’s read the paper, and then I don’t have to spend my time [01:35:30] reading a paper from 1985. Uh, I can spend.

Payman Langroudi: It these days. Ai, right?

Mike Gray: Well, [01:35:35] yeah, there’s that side that summarises. Great. Um, but it’s, I [01:35:40] can then put my time into learning CAD. I can, you know, learn 3d printing. I can [01:35:45] on that side. And so I’m still working just as hard as somebody else. And, but I’m terrible [01:35:50] at quoting papers and that’s like absolutely useless. But then you just have.

Payman Langroudi: Does it stress you that someone’s [01:35:55] going to turn up on your course and bedazzle you with like, uh, [01:36:00] science from another.

Mike Gray: Absolutely. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I tell you, you’re a charlatan. [01:36:05]

Mike Gray: That’s every lecturer’s nightmare, I think, and I’ve been fortunate [01:36:10] in that I certainly with my course, it’s a lot of. It’s been word of mouth [01:36:15] and everyone who wants to do it is really passionate and they just want to be there. [01:36:20] And so everyone’s been awesome. It’s been incredible. And I think I’m [01:36:25] sure I will get that if it keeps building and then somebody’s doing it because they feel they ought [01:36:30] to do it because their bodies did it or they need to keep up and, and, and, and that side and [01:36:35] the best approach I find is just to be honest and say, I don’t know, you [01:36:40] know, you could have a point.

Payman Langroudi: I so respect people who say, I don’t know.

Mike Gray: Yeah. And, and, and [01:36:45] it’s because as well, you’ve got to be careful. I learned this, [01:36:50] um, uh, I lectured in UPenn last year. Um, and, [01:36:55] uh.

Payman Langroudi: How’d that come about?

Mike Gray: Uh, Celine. Uh, [01:37:00] Celine. Yeah. Yeah. So she’s.

Payman Langroudi: She’s there.

Mike Gray: Now. She’s there now. And so I know [01:37:05] her. And then, um. Marcus Blatz and that side. And, uh, I sort [01:37:10] of you can find a paper to support anything. Um, now, so whatever you’re trying [01:37:15] to say, you can just Google, you know, ChatGPT, whatever, or the various other resources [01:37:20] to, um, to, to support what you want to say. And so everyone does that. And, and she’s like, don’t [01:37:25] do that in front of Marcus. And so I’m like last minute taking down all these references [01:37:30] in there and, and it’s much better. It’s much better to even find a paper that argues against [01:37:35] what you’re trying to say, uh, and just be authentic in that side. Um, and [01:37:40] yeah, it’s, I, I respect that too. And I really respect lecturers [01:37:45] who talk about their mistakes. I’m trying to be brave enough to incorporate more of that [01:37:50] into what I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: It makes for a much better experience for them.

Mike Gray: Because [01:37:55] that’s how I learned the hard way. Um, and so there’s so much value in [01:38:00] that side of.

Payman Langroudi: Things about papers. Yeah. Is that when you’re at To near the [01:38:05] forefront of something you realise much of the literature is [01:38:10] is, is whether you want to call it incorrect or whether you want [01:38:15] to call it out of date or whatever it is.

Mike Gray: You’re never going to be at the cutting edge. [01:38:20] I mean, you will, but it’s yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, like I’m waiting.

Mike Gray: For 12 [01:38:25] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I draw an insight. I draw an insight here from from 140,000 [01:38:30] treatments. Yeah. Let’s say I’ve got data on 140,000 [01:38:35] treatments. Yeah. I draw an insight from that. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone will quote me a paper [01:38:40] with 42 patients. Um, and it’s a, it’s a world renowned, you know, name. [01:38:45] Yeah. On 42 patients decided the opposite of my insight that [01:38:50] I’ve brought from 140 000 cases. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, and [01:38:55] I’m hundred percent sure about this insight. Yeah. If you Google it. Yeah. Hardly [01:39:00] any paper says that that’s true. Yeah. And so it’s almost like, you know, [01:39:05] when you when you understand something or when you’re involved with something, you realise how [01:39:10] like, let’s say, have you ever been involved in a news story where there’s a [01:39:15] journalist involved? Yeah. Where there’s a journalist involved. I mean, news story sounds a bit dramatic, a [01:39:20] PR story where there’s a journalist involved and you’re part of it and you’re close to the situation, [01:39:25] and you read the article and it’s just like, the details are all incorrect. Yeah. You know, and the conclusion [01:39:30] is incorrect. Yeah. So sometimes when you, when you know about something, but [01:39:35] then in our, in our world, where’s the evidence? It’s like a very good question you should [01:39:40] be asking. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And it’s just that balance, isn’t it. And I think that’s part of developing yourself [01:39:45] as a clinician or anything in the world. It’s just using your brain to pick out what’s sensible, [01:39:50] isn’t it on that side? But yeah, because I guess you look at me on paper, you tear [01:39:55] me apart like I shouldn’t be doing any of the treatments that I do. Like, you know, right now I love my soft tissue [01:40:00] work, so I’m doing everything around implants like vertical grafting, rebuilding, papilla, all [01:40:05] that. Oh, really? And and, you know, full mouth rehab, all [01:40:10] that. Technically, I always think, like, what happens if I end up before the GDC and [01:40:15] there’s a panel expert. Yeah. And it would be traditional, say prosthodontics trained [01:40:20] and they’ll be sort of critiquing how I do it. [01:40:25] And technically, you know, there’d be far more by the book. And so it’s, yeah, [01:40:30] it’s a weird one. But like, like you said, it’s applying that common sense. And [01:40:35] for you, you, you, you, you’ve got all that wealth of data and things [01:40:40] to support what it is you’re thinking. So, you know, it’s legit. And again, coming back to that whole margin side, [01:40:45] I worried at first. I’m like, oh, if I don’t drill a margin, but then I’m like, well, we’re putting all [01:40:50] these composites on and they’re definitely thicker than 0.3mm.

Payman Langroudi: Which is not very much, is it? [01:40:55]

Mike Gray: Yeah. And everything’s fine. And so actually, I’ve got [01:41:00] everything in front of me. It’s telling me. Know what you’re thinking of doing. Isn’t that crazy? [01:41:05] Um. And so yeah, you’re fine on that side.

Payman Langroudi: What about Instagram? [01:41:10] Do you find it easy to know?

Mike Gray: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: You find it hard.

Mike Gray: It’s a double edged sword, isn’t it? I think [01:41:15] double edged blade in that you you kind of need to do it. I [01:41:20] think in the modern world, I think one of the best things have come out of it is sort of networking and [01:41:25] meeting people. And also the University of Instagram, you see lots of stupid stuff. But again, [01:41:30] that’s down to you to take apart properly. But then there’s so much incredible things everyone wants to [01:41:35] show off. So they’re showing you all these amazing things and it’s like, oh wow, do they do that? How can I do this? How can I tweak that? How [01:41:40] can I apply that? And you can work it out, break it down and, and apply it to where you want to go. So it’s, [01:41:45] it’s awesome in that respect. Um, but then it’s more work. It’s a lot [01:41:50] of work to do it properly. I’ve been terrible these last few months of doing it because I’m focusing, I’ve got other projects [01:41:55] top secret, um, which at some point, uh, when when the pattern [01:42:00] clears, you’ll know about it. But, um, so I, you know, putting time into other [01:42:05] things and that side and the social media side suffered. And because you, you have [01:42:10] to commit yourself or like you said, get someone to [01:42:15] take that over for you. And that again, is probably me. And my [01:42:20] thought process is wrong on this thinking, like, if somebody does it, [01:42:25] they’re not going to get the right angles. They’re not going to try and say, because a lot of my posts are more for dentists, not patients, um, [01:42:30] pretty much all of them. And so that educational side and, and that bit, I feel it [01:42:35] would be difficult for someone to get right unless it’s me, but of course there would be ways around it. I just need to invest [01:42:40] the time and, you know, and plan it. And I’m sure I could. Um, but it’s, uh, [01:42:45] yeah, it’s, it’s a great thing and not a great thing on the same.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s finish with [01:42:50] some quick fire questions. What comes to mind when I say what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Mike Gray: Ah, so [01:42:55] my, um, can I have a favourite lecturer? So you know doctor Alice Roberts, [01:43:00] she, she does all that sort of coast to coast thing. She’s an anthropologist. Um, so all [01:43:05] this sort of discovery channel, things like, you know, they’re trying to work out Henry the Eighth.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Mike Gray: That sort of thing. [01:43:10] Ah, she taught us in Bristol for anatomy and I fancied her. So [01:43:15] I was front row every lesson for, [01:43:20] for, for anatomy. So definitely. Uh, yeah. Doctor Alice Roberts, favourite lecturer.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:43:25] If there was no like constraints at all time or money or anything, is [01:43:30] there a course you’d jump into tomorrow? Like what? What comes to mind?

Mike Gray: I was, I was signed up [01:43:35] to do, um, and it was hard and soft [01:43:40] tissue, a week of hard and soft tissue augmentation. And I’ve just spent too much money. [01:43:45] Uh, and it was, it’s like an eight grand course literally for a week. Um, and [01:43:50] so yeah, I, I want to get that done. Yeah. Tick that off a. It’d be nice to go to [01:43:55] Italy for the week. Both incredible. And I don’t do sort of block grafting. So that’s. [01:44:00] I need to tick that off and get that done. Because the type of implant work [01:44:05] I do, it’s all the sort of the difficult anterior stuff that people don’t want to do. That’s most of my cosmetic [01:44:10] now. I do a lot of the rehab stuff and that’s where. But a lot of it is, you know, [01:44:15] generally working between canines, often trauma or bad dentistry or that side of it. And so [01:44:20] that’s where I want to tick that block grafting side of things. Um, and yeah, [01:44:25] so.

Payman Langroudi: And what comes to mind if, if I say, um, [01:44:30] dentally, what, what, what if you had to give someone advice about, [01:44:35] do you think you’re qualified to give advice on, on this, like career wise, some, some younger [01:44:40] dentist wants to know what, which direction to go or not necessarily. I don’t want you to say ortho [01:44:45] or endo. Yeah, but, but which mindset to have because the thing I’ve been most impressed with you is [01:44:50] the mindset of like, anything’s possible kind of mindset that you’ve got going on as [01:44:55] long as you obsess into it. Yeah. But it’s also you’ve also got [01:45:00] a real like pragmatic edge to that. Yeah. You know, because, you know, someone can dive [01:45:05] into something and not be pragmatic. Yeah. What would you say? What advice would you give to a young dentist? [01:45:10]

Mike Gray: For me, just a broad foundation I think is fantastic. [01:45:15] Um, it’s difficult again, because and this [01:45:20] sort of ties in with stay in your lane, like, and, uh, because it’s [01:45:25] I’m terrible for this. I used to be even worse when I just graduated. Like, oh, such and such gone [01:45:30] off. And they’ve already done a post-grad training and they’re doing this. Oh, they’ve bought a practice and [01:45:35] you just, you look at yourself and be like, I’m useless. Like, what have I done? And [01:45:40] stay in your lane? And like I said, for me, my dentistry was terrible up until 5 or 6 years ago. [01:45:45] Um, and not terrible. I was decent for not knowing anything, but it wasn’t until I [01:45:50] put in started putting in that effort. Um, and so [01:45:55] it’s, yeah, stay in your lane. Just worry about yourself. Um, and again, social media [01:46:00] is terrible for that, isn’t it, with people portraying what they want to portray and not necessarily reality. [01:46:05] And then, um, it’s that broad foundation. I think [01:46:10] it can be very tempting because you think, oh, everyone’s doing this, I need to do this and I need [01:46:15] to specialise. Um, that you can get sort of [01:46:20] coaxed along into finding your niche too early. Whereas [01:46:25] for me, I had a huge base from surgical to restorative. One of the [01:46:30] profs I was with in the restorative process was endo. So I did a year of microscope endo. [01:46:35] Don’t do any of that now. Use it every day in my case assessment and [01:46:40] things. And so that foundation being so broad means I can, [01:46:45] you know, approach a lot with a, in a sensible way. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:46:50]

Mike Gray: Even things outside of dentistry. You look at the, the mechanics on [01:46:55] the motorbikes and like, you know, metal fabrication or woodwork implants [01:47:00] are a self-tapping screw. I’ve done that a million times in metal and wood and all that side of it. So all [01:47:05] the principles stay the same and you can start then tearing things apart. Because when I’m looking at [01:47:10] implants now and I look at how we, we talk a bolt, which is something it’s crazy how precise we [01:47:15] try to be with implants. We’re so imprecise when we. The simplest thing of screwing [01:47:20] a, a bolt in and we talk it. Because you speak to someone [01:47:25] in a machine shop, which I do regularly when my bikes are falling apart. And that. And it’s like, okay, so talk [01:47:30] well, with the torque wrench, the bolt needs to be in motion when you’re talking. Otherwise, [01:47:35] the minute you stop, you’ve got coefficient of friction involved in that. You should lubricate the torque. What temperature [01:47:40] are things at? And we don’t look at any of that. We just kind of nip it up and it’s done.

Mike Gray: And it’s [01:47:45] so inaccurate and so straight away. Then I’m thinking, okay, how can I do things? So when I do my [01:47:50] implants, I call it a shakedown. When you build a motorbike, you take it out for a ride [01:47:55] and then you get it back and you check all the nuts and bolts and tighten up whatever’s come loose. So [01:48:00] whenever I fit an implant, I get them back two weeks, two months later, after they’ve been chewing on it and [01:48:05] check the torque on that bolt and again, checking the torque, you think, oh, you just nip it up. No, you have to back [01:48:10] it out first so that the bolt is turning without the coefficient of friction [01:48:15] having to overcome that. So you can actually get an accurate torque reading every [01:48:20] time. It will nip up a little bit. And whether that’s because of a temperature change or that side of it. So [01:48:25] when I say my implants out for a shakedown, always nips up a little bit afterwards, and there would be science [01:48:30] behind that. And somebody, somebody do a paper that won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Be verbal skills. Yeah. So because.

Mike Gray: It’s [01:48:35] that. So it’s that broad base.

Payman Langroudi: Debate says his design and tech GCSE [01:48:40] was much more useful is much more useful to him than chemistry [01:48:45] Biology. A level off for me. Agree?

Mike Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah [01:48:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Absolutely. And and it’s it’s that sort of, you know, [01:48:55] that and I and putting into that side of things. So, uh, yeah, broad [01:49:00] based though it can be frustrating, but nothing is wasted in that. And [01:49:05] like I said, there’s so many treatments I don’t do now, but because I’ve had experience and I understand them, it [01:49:10] all helps with building that foundation of the bigger cases [01:49:15] I’m doing now.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the final, final bit of the pod, which [01:49:20] starts off with fancy dinner party. Um, three guests.

Mike Gray: Are. [01:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Mike Gray: No. So for me, it’s it’s, you know, call [01:49:30] it, uh, sort of soft or cuddly or friends and family. [01:49:35] It’s, it’s, uh, like I said, I had the sad thing [01:49:40] of one of my childhood besties passing away, uh, New Year’s. And [01:49:45] would I be more sad if I went for [01:49:50] dinner with somebody famous or somebody passes away? Or [01:49:55] I went for a dinner with my friends and family and it’s I’m going to have the best night with the people. I get on with the. [01:50:00] I can have the most fun joke and laugh. And so yeah, just nearest [01:50:05] and dearest, closest friends. That would be my dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. I don’t normally allow [01:50:10] that sort of answer, you know, but on this occasion I will think on this occasion I will because, [01:50:15] you know, I’m like, you know, come on surely, Gandhi. Yeah. If you could sit with him. [01:50:20] But but on this occasion I will.

Mike Gray: And again, maybe that’s me being blasé because [01:50:25] I’ve been fortunate to meet lots of incredible people. I’ve met world champions, multiple world champions [01:50:30] in sport I’ve met.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t interest.

Mike Gray: You. People at the highest level in music. In [01:50:35] surgery. I’ve been fortunate to meet some of the best surgeons.

Payman Langroudi: That was that bit you did about the peeing [01:50:40] in the toilet? Even even Oasis have to pee in this toilet.

Mike Gray: But [01:50:45] that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Yeah, that’s a good point. That was from that was from Rockfield Studios.

Mike Gray: So again, [01:50:50] I was fortunate to to have a recording session, Rockfield Studios, which famously Bohemian Rhapsody [01:50:55] was was created on the piano there. And like I said, you’ve had Oasis in there and they [01:51:00] did the album. What’s the what’s the story? Morning glory. And yeah, famously, they [01:51:05] had a microphone in the hallway that picked up some of the birds. So whenever you go there, everyone always puts this microphone in the hallway [01:51:10] and, and records it. But at the end of that hallway, there’s just a, just a grotty little toilet. Um, [01:51:15] and, and it’s funny, I went there to, to use the toilet and [01:51:20] I stood there and looking at this toilet and I’m thinking of all these incredible people that have [01:51:25] had to take a pee in that toilet before me. And it’s like, so again, advice [01:51:30] to anyone out there and young people, all these incredible dentists and things that you’re looking up to, whether you’re looking [01:51:35] up to me or yourself or anyone like that, they’ve all got to pee like you and I. [01:51:40] Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it’s a beautiful story. It’s a beautiful analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Love that man. It’s [01:51:45] been a massive pleasure, dude, a massive pleasure. I really learned a lot from your outlook. Uh, [01:51:50] you know, you say that broad base, but then you dive deep. Yeah. You know, that combination [01:51:55] is facilitates that though.

Mike Gray: And I think that’s, that’s that important side and that [01:52:00] stops you getting trapped.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Uh, like we said in that, oh, I have to do it this [01:52:05] way because this is how I’m, how I’m told.

Payman Langroudi: So kid on the way, huh?

Mike Gray: Yeah. [01:52:10] Got a baby due end of April, so I’m sure life would change.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Go berserk. Go [01:52:15] berserk from now until the baby’s done. Yeah. Yeah. Like, [01:52:20] go travel with that one year old. Yeah. It’s amazing. Yeah. Number one, you don’t pay your ticket. Yeah. You [01:52:25] know, once you start paying four times a flight to Thailand, you realise. Oh my [01:52:30] God. Yeah. Yeah. Enjoy. Enjoy it as well.

Mike Gray: As the [01:52:35] business side.

Payman Langroudi: Stop and smell the roses, too. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Lovely to have you, man.

Mike Gray: Thank you. No [01:52:40] thank you ever so much. And like I said, absolute pleasure and privilege.

Payman Langroudi: To get a party together. Yeah. [01:52:45] In ministry. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Gray: I’m looking forward to it. I’m going to be there.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be good.

Mike Gray: So, uh. Yeah. [01:52:50] Can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds incredible. Thanks, man.

Mike Gray: No, thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This [01:52:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:53:00] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:53:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:53:10] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:53:15] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [01:53:20] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:53:25]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:53:30] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:53:35] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened online training to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Jawad Quinn [00:00:45] to the podcast. Um, Rawa is a dentist who’s [00:00:50] now branched out into tech. Yeah. Um, with your Medicube product. [00:00:55] That’s correct. I’m very interested in that whole founder journey. Um, [00:01:00] everything that it takes. And I haven’t done it myself. Right? Yeah. The sort of Earth’s [00:01:05] gravitational pull, which I call dentistry and, you know, coming out of that [00:01:10] and, uh, your, your journey so far with, with the investment [00:01:15] co-founders, all of that really want to get into all of that. Yeah. [00:01:20] Lovely to have you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Payman really appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: All the way from Belfast. [00:01:25]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So I live in Belfast now.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been there?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So I’ve been there for four years. [00:01:30] Um, it’s a great place. It’s very safe. Like you can leave [00:01:35] stuff anywhere and people won’t steal. Yeah, because everyone knows each other. Um. [00:01:40] So. No, I love Belfast. It’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: Where were you before? Belfast.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So I used to live in South London, [00:01:45] so I was like round Clapham.

Payman Langroudi: You grew up in South London?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, I grew up on the Kings Road. [00:01:50] Did you? Yeah, but we weren’t, we weren’t well off like we lived. Um, we lived [00:01:55] in a flat on the Kings Road.

Payman Langroudi: Um We’re both.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So literally [00:02:00] like it was, I think it was called there was a Guinness building. [00:02:05] We weren’t the Guinness building, which would be ironic. Me living in Belfast now. Um, [00:02:10] no, it was um winch house, that’s where we lived. So it was like right in the centre [00:02:15] of the King’s Road that like our flat is worth so much money. Now if we bought it, [00:02:20] but we didn’t. Um, and yeah, it was a nice upbringing. Well it was, [00:02:25] I went to Ashburnham School. It was a little school, like right near it. And [00:02:30] actually the community was so lovely. Like none of us like were very well off. [00:02:35] Um, you know, like high, like low socioeconomic. Um, [00:02:40] you know, loads of like very low household income families. [00:02:45] Um, but it was a really nice community and I’m like in touch with loads [00:02:50] of my friends from school.

Payman Langroudi: Um, they’re the best.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: They’re really nice.

Payman Langroudi: They are the best.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:02:55] Like I really wish them well. And they’re very sweet. Like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve got friends from school, from university [00:03:00] family, all that school friends or something else.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Weird, isn’t it? What I find really [00:03:05] interesting is how little people change. You know, when we’re all 50, whatever, 52, whatever it is, 53. [00:03:10] Um, same character as the kid was when he was 11, you know?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: God, [00:03:15] I’ve had that realisation recently. Yeah. Like, I think even from the age of three, you [00:03:20] can kind of tell someone’s character. Yeah. And it sort of doesn’t ever change. [00:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: And where did you study dentistry?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So I studied in Liverpool. Um, [00:03:30] and it was great. Yeah, I really enjoyed. I’m still in contact with some of the lecturers actually, and they’re [00:03:35] very helpful. Um, with Medicube as well. They’ve been fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:03:40] that on purpose you went to Liverpool or by mistake?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No. Well, I wanted to get out of London, to be honest. [00:03:45] Yeah, I did, I was like.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good foresight to have that foresight to want to get out [00:03:50] because I didn’t.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Want.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when you’re 17, you think you know it all. I didn’t want to get out. I was [00:03:55] forced out like I didn’t get the grades. I ended up in my reserve place. [00:04:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s typical though, isn’t it? Yeah, it happens to so many.

Payman Langroudi: I adored it. It was the best thing that [00:04:05] ever happened. And then I forced my son, who just went to university, to leave London. Really? He [00:04:10] was thinking of Imperial College, which is like the building next door to his school. And he goes to the [00:04:15] lycée. The French school.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And I said, listen, like, [00:04:20] leave and reinvent. And when I say reinvent, I don’t necessarily mean make up a new [00:04:25] person. It’s almost like this. This there’s someone in you who you’re not letting out because [00:04:30] of the, the guardrails, the kind of the framework that you’re growing up in. And [00:04:35] then you get to the new town. Were you like that when you got to Liverpool?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I think Liverpool. I went there and I [00:04:40] did go mad and I was away from like family.

Payman Langroudi: Which year was it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, so [00:04:45] God, it’s so long ago, 2009. So I was, I went mad, [00:04:50] I was wild. Were you, were you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And I think that was what was so funny. Like [00:04:55] even those friends that I made, they’re still in touch with still really good friends. Um, it’s [00:05:00] harder now to reach out, like as often, but whenever we see each other, it’s like nothing’s changed. [00:05:05] But they, they must have thought I was absolutely nuts because we’d [00:05:10] go on a night out. We’d have, like, so much fun would be wild and whatever. And then it [00:05:15] got to like February and I just like started to become really elusive and [00:05:20] they like, wouldn’t see me anymore and I would be in the library, like constantly because [00:05:25] the other side of me came out of like, oh my God, I’ve been having too much fun and like, I’m [00:05:30] gonna fail.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, were you like a girly swot in school?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, no, [00:05:35] I was a real, um, I think at school, I was like a drifter. [00:05:40] I was always a drifter. Just drift between different groups. Um, and [00:05:45] then. But I would work really hard because, like, I am actually like dyslexic. [00:05:50] Um, and that was diagnosed very late, that was diagnosed at university. [00:05:55] So I had a lot of coping mechanisms and strategies. I used to like work really, really [00:06:00] hard. And, um, university was hard for me. Like academically, [00:06:05] I’ve really actually found it very difficult. Um, so yeah, my friends would find it so funny [00:06:10] because like from February to June, you wouldn’t see me. I would be in the library like, [00:06:15] so.

Payman Langroudi: Put it, verbalise it for me. Like the feeling of being dyslexic. Are [00:06:20] there certain concepts you just can’t pick up and others that you find really easy?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No. Like [00:06:25] now honestly doesn’t show for me. My dyslexia is like really not obvious, but I’ll [00:06:30] explain it like this. When I was a kid learning about the world, I couldn’t [00:06:35] grasp why things were done a certain way. So like when I was taught the [00:06:40] alphabet and the time, those were two times I specifically remember at school being [00:06:45] incredibly frustrated. I would like, I just couldn’t understand because I was like, [00:06:50] really? I was smart, but when it came to those two things. I couldn’t understand [00:06:55] what they were teaching me. Why they were teaching me, what was the value of what I was learning. [00:07:00] And it really frustrated me. And I would like get I would get really upset and [00:07:05] like, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Because you were undiagnosed as well.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes, yes. And back then [00:07:10] it wasn’t like dyslexia wasn’t a thing. It was like, okay, you’re not listening. You’re not focusing, [00:07:15] you know, so I that was what I found really hard. Um, but actually it’s been [00:07:20] a bit of a superpower, if I’m honest, like.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the most successful people are dyslexic.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, [00:07:25] yeah, I mean, only recently I’ve been able to like account a lot of my success to [00:07:30] my dyslexia. The upside is huge. Like so, okay, so things like this, like [00:07:35] I can read loads of different books and topics that are completely unrelated [00:07:40] and I can see like a thread of how they link and I can like reapply [00:07:45] concepts. So it’s really fun. Like I am a big picture thinker, so [00:07:50] I can see I can like basically learn something about, yeah, completely unrelated topic, reapply [00:07:55] it somewhere else. And it’s really fun. I love doing that. And that’s how I’ve always learned [00:08:00] actually, even, um, I think with maths, even I loved learning [00:08:05] to do things the long, hard way because that meant I understood them [00:08:10] and I can re-apply pieces to different. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Is that when you, when you’re looking [00:08:15] at something, do you have to understand it fully?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Some people, some people [00:08:20] like that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And I am like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a pain, but it’s also brilliant because yeah, once you [00:08:25] understand it fully, then you can really like adjust it and make it yours.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Totally. [00:08:30]

Payman Langroudi: I noticed that with people I know who are like that, but if you want to explain something to them, you can’t just gloss [00:08:35] over it. You have to go from the beginning.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, that’s what’s frustrating for a lot of people. [00:08:40] Like explaining stuff to me, especially my husband. He gets so wound up trying to explain [00:08:45] stuff, but it’s because like, so where it’s been so beneficial is [00:08:50] in dentistry as well. I struggled so much to learn [00:08:55] dentistry. And then when I came out into practice, I don’t know what happened. [00:09:00] It just like all came together so fast and like I could see, um, [00:09:05] I can’t explain it. Like I just, I was so focussed on like, okay, [00:09:10] this is what I want to do in my career. I had this goal three years in. I was like, I want to be the best [00:09:15] dentist in the world. And that was like what I was working to. And very early on, I worked [00:09:20] in really high end private practice and I was mentored. Actually, [00:09:25] I had lived in Belfast in 2017 and 2018, just for a year and a half, worked [00:09:30] at a really high end practice there called Gentle Dental Care, was mentored by the dentist there. [00:09:35] She is incredible. Like I would still.

Payman Langroudi: Chat her up.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Worship her. Lucy [00:09:40] Stock she’s amazing. She’s amazing. Dentist. Um, and then [00:09:45] I did like the crystal course and um, that was incredible as well. Really good foundation. [00:09:50] Everything just came together and I just realised, um, I [00:09:55] think I just, I like really my career just leapt forward really fast. Right? And I got [00:10:00] really good at doing dentistry, but then I realised that it [00:10:05] just sort of came crashing down really early where I was like, this isn’t enough. [00:10:10] Like this isn’t going to make me happy. I can’t do this forever. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:10:15] feeling too.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How old were you when that happened?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, 29. [00:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: 28.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Were you? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know what, I was sitting. I figured out how to do veneers. [00:10:25] I think it was at the time. There was no Invisalign back then. I’d figured out veneers, and I was really happy [00:10:30] about veneers. I was making loads of money, and I suddenly had this moment [00:10:35] where I thought, even if I do the best [00:10:40] job in the world, my impact is five miles radius of [00:10:45] this building. And at the time I was in Folkestone somewhere. You know, I was in. Yeah. V t plus [00:10:50] one kind of job. Yeah. And I wanted more impact. I childishly, [00:10:55] if I have to be honest, be honest with you. It was a bit childish because you can have impact, right? [00:11:00] You can open 100 practices if you’re man enough or woman enough. Yeah, yeah. So I could have had impact. But [00:11:05] somehow in that childish moment, I thought my impact has to be something other than being a [00:11:10] dentist.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I totally see that. I do see that completely. And I think [00:11:15] for me, there was, there was a bit more of a frustration, not [00:11:20] the impact so much. What I found was like, you could build [00:11:25] a really strong foundation in one practice. Then if something [00:11:30] happened to that job and you were not happy and you had to move to another practice, you’re starting again training [00:11:35] a team, um, building that trust in the [00:11:40] team and the workflow and everything. And that was a huge problem for me. And [00:11:45] then what I found was I’ve worked at a lot of practices, by the way, I’ve worked at 16 practices [00:11:50] and I’ve really and that’s another one of my superpowers that really gets [00:11:55] underestimated. I can walk into a practice. I can work there for [00:12:00] maybe two weeks. And I can tell you exactly, uh, pretty [00:12:05] much who shouldn’t work there, who’s not interested, who’s, who’s not trainable. [00:12:10] You know, there are people who take on jobs, and you can’t train [00:12:15] them to be any better than they are because they’ll never care. Um, I get that sense really fast. [00:12:20] And, um, so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like an EQ thing rather than an IQ thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I don’t [00:12:25] know, I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: I have emotional intelligence that you sort of understand people quickly.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I don’t think I have great [00:12:30] EQ, I honestly don’t. Like I’m not, I’m not that like, you know, there are people that are really charming [00:12:35] and they can like sell anything. I don’t think I’m like that, but I don’t, I. [00:12:40] I don’t know what it is. I can just tell straight away, but usually I have to work with someone. I have to get [00:12:45] a sense of their, um, how they complete their tasks.

Payman Langroudi: Like a member of staff, [00:12:50] a nurse or something.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Their attention to detail, reception team, pretty much everyone. I get like a strong sense of. [00:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: I definitely want to talk about this then because whenever I talk to a specialist. Yeah, you know how specialist, a [00:13:00] lot of them jump between 16 practices.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really fascinated by the notion of, [00:13:05] so what lessons do you learn from like good and bad from different practices? [00:13:10] I do want to go there.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Not right now, but I do want to go there because, you know, it’s [00:13:15] one of those I’ve only ever worked in for practices. So and [00:13:20] each one was completely different. And so, you know, your experience and practices is [00:13:25] quadruple mine, right? So I’m interested to hear those lessons.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And even like I’ve worked at big [00:13:30] practices as well. So you see huge teams. Um, so you’re exposed to a [00:13:35] lot of people. So I’ve worked at really big, really small NHS private, high end bog [00:13:40] standard. I’ve done, I’ve done it all. I think that was also my my piece of my dyslexia. [00:13:45] Being like, I really need to understand dentistry before I really know where I want [00:13:50] to place myself. That probably is part of my I mean, I don’t know if it’s dyslexia or my personality [00:13:55] really.

Payman Langroudi: But a couple of things are a bit of a rewind. You said you were in, uh, [00:14:00] Chelsea. Westminster. Sorry. Chelsea and Kensington. Kensington, Chelsea in [00:14:05] a low socioeconomic group, but both your parents are doctors.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how [00:14:10] does that play out?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, um, so we so basically we used to live [00:14:15] in Kuwait, um, when I was young, and then the war broke out between Iraq [00:14:20] and Kuwait and I’m Iraqi while.

Payman Langroudi: Living in Kuwait.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: While we were living in Kuwait.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:14:25] Iraq was number one.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Which is so interesting because like, I’ve never in my [00:14:30] life really been able to understand, like actually what [00:14:35] happened to us in like a, like visceral sense because like we had [00:14:40] all of our assets seized. Um, so my parents lost everything. Like [00:14:45] we were living a great life out there. You know, they were doing very well. Um, what.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of doctor’s.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Orders? Um, [00:14:50] so my dad’s a paediatrician. He didn’t do that anymore. He went into GP and my mum, I [00:14:55] don’t think she actually specialised in anything. She was just a general, um GP [00:15:00] uh, sorry. General doctor went on to be a GP and um so yeah, [00:15:05] we had all of our assets seized. It was me, my brother and sister, you know, I was like [00:15:10] three at the time. My sister was um like ten and my [00:15:15] brother was like eight. And uh, yeah, we just had to.

Payman Langroudi: Run [00:15:20] away to the UK.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Came to the UK.

Payman Langroudi: Um, start from completely zero.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:15:25] And it was really difficult as well because back in those days, like you would. So my dad would was [00:15:30] trying to get recruited to be in the army and all of this stuff. And it was really hard. So it was, it was [00:15:35] really uncertain time. But anyway, we got to the UK. Um, and then yeah, [00:15:40] we didn’t really have anything and my parents had to basically train up from being like the equivalent [00:15:45] qualify. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because they studied in Iraq.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, essentially. Yeah. [00:15:50] Well they studied in Egypt.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So they had to kind of, um, [00:15:55] start as a v t basically not a v t um.

Payman Langroudi: During the doctor.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Junior doctor. [00:16:00] Yeah, exactly. Which I think was a bit of, you know, it’s a bit humiliating for [00:16:05] a doctor who’s worked so long and has done so well for themselves. And now you’re just training with like new [00:16:10] grads. So, um, and they were working a lot. They were doing a lot of night shifts, [00:16:15] um, different parts of the UK, like my mum [00:16:20] was in Doncaster at one point, my dad was in Wales. Um, but at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:16:25] it enough to put you off medicine?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: 100%. Oh my God, 1,000,000%. [00:16:30] Like I see, I see people now that are doctors that are married and [00:16:35] I just I listened to their story now and they’re like, yeah, we don’t have kids because we [00:16:40] don’t know how we’ll make it work. So I think now it’s like people are very responsible. When [00:16:45] you bring a child into the world, you want to have a good, you know, a good [00:16:50] life for them. And I think it’s put a lot of doctors off, but it’s very unfair on them. [00:16:55] Like I don’t think it gets enough publicity on like how hard it is for them to raise kids, [00:17:00] how traumatising it is for their children. I mean, that was a huge part of like, [00:17:05] um, you know, my upbringing was like very much like my, my sister [00:17:10] when I mean, my mum had to kind of go and work when I was maybe like six, [00:17:15] um, my sister was 16 and it was really difficult, like [00:17:20] my sister was taking on like the role of caring for me. Um, and [00:17:25] that was hard. That was really.

Payman Langroudi: Underestimate it when both parents are in medicine. I mean, I know [00:17:30] loads of people where one of them is a surgeon and the other one is running everything at [00:17:35] home. But then I know loads of people, two doctors, and either one of them has to take [00:17:40] a real break on their career or, you know, nannies come into [00:17:45] play.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: But that notion of, you know, my brother, my brother and his [00:17:50] wife are doctors, both of them. And right now at this moment, they’ve got two young kids. And [00:17:55] there isn’t one day that all four of them are together. Yeah, even during the weekend.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Sad. Which [00:18:00] is which is difficult, right? It’s so hard trying to address it, but yeah, but you’re right, it doesn’t get talked about enough. [00:18:05] Tell me about the ambition piece because you’re clearly very ambitious. It’s very [00:18:10] obvious.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Is it.

Payman Langroudi: Obvious? Yeah. Were you always know? [00:18:15] Was there an inflection point?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, God, I was. So this is actually I think this goes a lot back [00:18:20] to my upbringing. I was very underestimated as a child. Oh, yeah. So I, um, look, [00:18:25] I grew up in a, in a household where I, you know, I had to figure a lot out for myself. [00:18:30] And it was it was very difficult. Like it wasn’t like I wasn’t [00:18:35] like read bedtime stories and I wasn’t like, you know, I, I just got on [00:18:40] with it. And it was hard. Like it wasn’t a nice, um, [00:18:45] upbringing. And I think what that did was it created a sense [00:18:50] of, okay, so as a child, it created a lot of confusion. [00:18:55] Um, because I.

Payman Langroudi: They were positives, right? Self-reliance, that sort of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, but as a child, you don’t [00:19:00] see it that way. As a child, you think everyone has your life. So then [00:19:05] you go to school and you pick up on things like, I don’t know, really unusual things [00:19:10] like just how cared for people other people are. And you do sort of [00:19:15] think, huh, that’s weird. Like, you know, just it just, [00:19:20] it just occurs to you and you don’t really understand why they’re living such a different life to you. [00:19:25] Um, and then as you get older, you kind of realise a [00:19:30] bit more what happened. And then I think it takes a really long time to process your childhood. I think a lot of people [00:19:35] in their 30s are still processing their childhood. And for me, um, very [00:19:40] early on, I realised that being a child was it just was [00:19:45] it sucked. And the reason it sucked is because I had no say in what I do. So after [00:19:50] that, it was like, when I’m an adult, I’m going to take full control of my life. And [00:19:55] I think what happened was I just realised that there was like, nothing I couldn’t [00:20:00] do if I put my mind to it. So the ambition piece comes from the self-belief [00:20:05] of like, I genuinely know that there’s like nothing [00:20:10] that I can’t do. Like if I. It might take me years, it might take my whole [00:20:15] life. But if I put my mind to it, like I’ll do it. And [00:20:20] so I think it’s just, it’s self-assurance, it’s belief.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s interesting, [00:20:25] you know, like some people thrive in like, institutional setup? [00:20:30]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I noticed that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Some people love school and uni love rules. You know, [00:20:35] like they like hard lines. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, almost it [00:20:40] breaks their heart when someone breaks one of those rules and, you know, they almost feel like, well, how come [00:20:45] I’m following the rule and this person isn’t? For the sake of the argument and other people thrive in [00:20:50] the opposite situation where, you know, like you say you can in your life and business, [00:20:55] you can make massive leaps if you make the right moves. Whereas in school, you can’t, [00:21:00] you can’t. You’re stuck in that system and people thrive in that. You [00:21:05] know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s actually so interesting because that’s what I picked up on like at school. I was so [00:21:10] underestimated.

Payman Langroudi: So are you the type of person if someone says, I don’t believe [00:21:15] you can do that, that drives you to.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I just find it funny when people say things like [00:21:20] that because I’m like, how do you know what I can do?

Payman Langroudi: No, but I used to live with a guy and he was a medic. [00:21:25] Yeah. And we were getting to the end of our course, and this guy was scraping through, continuously scraping through, [00:21:30] almost getting kicked out. And then we got to the end and he said, yeah, I want to be a surgeon. And I went, [00:21:35] come on, man.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, why don’t you just become a GP? Yeah, because, you know, and he went [00:21:40] on to become one of the world’s top surgeons in his area. Wow. And I had dinner with him and he said, [00:21:45] you know that thing you told me? That’s what made me do because you underestimated me. And [00:21:50] so I was like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a bit of that. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s like a red rag to a bull, you know, like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. But I think honestly, I think, um, sometimes you’re [00:22:00] underestimated.

Payman Langroudi: Underestimated your parents.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Would.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Say, I’d [00:22:05] just say everybody, like I would say everyone probably in my early life underestimated.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Because [00:22:10] you were like, uh.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Quiet, quiet. I was very quiet.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t come across quiet.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m [00:22:15] not anymore. Yeah, but this is the thing. I think you have, like.

Payman Langroudi: That reinvention piece in Liverpool. [00:22:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, well, I think I’ve reinvented myself so many times, but now I’m like, I [00:22:25] think after a while you’re sort of like, who actually am I? And then you remember who you are, who you are deep [00:22:30] down and stuff. So a lot of it is like, for me, I honestly don’t care if people [00:22:35] think I can do something or not. I’m very stoic about things now. I’m like, if I need [00:22:40] you to believe in me, I will put some energy into that, [00:22:45] right? But if I don’t, then you can do what you want. I’ll do what I want. We’ll move [00:22:50] in our own circles. So I just have this thing where I’m like, I conserve my energy for what’s important. [00:22:55] And in terms of like, there’s a lot of self-belief, [00:23:00] but there’s a lot of feeling like I need to do things because, um, [00:23:05] it’s weird. Sometimes I feel like you’re guided by something like I definitely feel guided, [00:23:10] like I feel guided by, I don’t know whether it’s a higher power or um. [00:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: But you said you don’t believe in.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m not religious, but I believe in God. Yeah. I do believe [00:23:20] in God. I mean, I don’t believe in like God in the same sense that like necessarily how [00:23:25] other people talk about God. But I do believe in like a higher power. Um, I believe we’re all connected. [00:23:30] I’ve always believed that, um, pray, I pray at [00:23:35] night time, but my prayer is more like, um, so I do a lot of, um, uh, [00:23:40] gratitude and, uh, I just pray for just people to be well, [00:23:45] um, and yeah, and just, yeah, just be, I just be grateful for a moment [00:23:50] and I just like thank, um, like I usually just thank the universe, but that’s for me, that’s the [00:23:55] higher power that I’m thanking. Um, but yeah, I think, I think the key thing is, [00:24:00] I do believe we’re all connected. So that’s a huge, um, part of how I live my [00:24:05] life. Like I don’t do things to hurt people because I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: Like in a karmic way like that. [00:24:10]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that we’re all kind [00:24:15] of the same person walking different lives. We’re all connected. You just need to want well [00:24:20] for everyone. So, you know, when it comes to like, if I need people [00:24:25] to believe in me, it’s got to be like, you know, if I need do [00:24:30] you know what I mean? Like it’s got to be stoic. So I want well, for other people, if they don’t believe in me, I’m not going to be upset about [00:24:35] it. But yeah, it does drive me sometimes because I’m like, but also [00:24:40] not really anymore because I know where I’m going. I know what I’m doing. I know why I’m doing [00:24:45] it. If someone doesn’t believe in it, then I don’t care. How old are you? I’m 35.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:24:50] you look a bit younger. Do I? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: How old did you think I was? That’s [00:24:55] compliment. I like being.

Payman Langroudi: Told. I wasn’t saying that for a compliment. Just like. No, but. But there is something [00:25:00] I don’t know. Do you think women take longer to get to this point that [00:25:05] you’re at, or sort of knowing yourself?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, I don’t think that actually. [00:25:10] I think the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: I come across 1 or 2 women who say that, right? They say, oh, you know, for a [00:25:15] woman, knowing yourself takes longer. And, you know, in uni, I didn’t think that [00:25:20] I come across, you know, 18 who know themselves quite well.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I [00:25:25] think do you know what’s really interesting? I think I really got to know myself after I, um, [00:25:30] got pregnant and that’s really strange. But when I got pregnant, I felt so spiritual [00:25:35] and it was like, it was very, it [00:25:40] was really, really like spiritual amazing time for me. Um, [00:25:45] and then after when I, you know, had my little girl, I think now I just feel so connected [00:25:50] to her. Like I almost think we’re telepathic sometimes. Like it’s just so strange. [00:25:55] Like, I’ll have a thought and she’ll have a thought. We’ll wake up at the same time and think loads of weird [00:26:00] things. And she’s three and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Is you any kid?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, she’s my only child. Yeah. [00:26:05] God, I don’t think I can handle going through it all again, but no, I think, I think, [00:26:10] um.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel around the subject of, like, wanting it all.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: About what?

Payman Langroudi: Wanting it [00:26:15] all.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: What do you mean, wanting it all?

Payman Langroudi: You know, like you want a child, you want a husband, you want [00:26:20] a business, you want a.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I want it all. I do want it all. Yeah, yeah, I want it all. And I don’t think that’s a problem. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: I think. Do you think like, something’s going to give? Like something has to give? In this situation. [00:26:30] So. So then what gives? Right? So yeah, so so let me tell you what I think. Like [00:26:35] your relationship with your child is not going to give.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not going to let your business give [00:26:40] because the moment you let your business give. That it goes away all together. Yeah. And it tends [00:26:45] to be either your own health and happiness. That gives or [00:26:50] your relationship sometimes being the. I find the second kid does that more. [00:26:55] Than the.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: First probably. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but you know that notion that we’re sold that I can have it all. I [00:27:00] found it’s a little bit toxic, a little bit toxic in that in that, you know, what is all. [00:27:05] Uh, the next person could say all is 100 practices. Yeah, yeah. So can [00:27:10] you have 100 practices and a Start-Up and a woman and a child and a had, um, [00:27:15] Anushka from the mirror.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, yeah. Cool.

Payman Langroudi: Three children, 600 employees, 43 [00:27:20] practices.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: She’s done well. She’s done amazing. I remember applying for a job with one of her [00:27:25] practices in like 2015, 2016, and I think they had half the number they have now. [00:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: She’s amazing. Yeah. She sounds brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I think of Linda Greenwall [00:27:35] for children. She’s written books. She travels all over the world. Lecturing has her own [00:27:40] massive practice at the same time. But something my point is, wanting [00:27:45] it all will lead to disappointment. Yeah, and it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. It’s fine. Yeah, [00:27:50] but the notion of something’s going to give. And then don’t let that break your heart.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:27:55] Look, I agree with you. I know when I started this journey, [00:28:00] especially with the business that something was always going to have to give. [00:28:05] And founders will say it all the time. No, you’re hard. [00:28:10] Like know what you’re willing to give up. And I know what I’m willing to give up there is [00:28:15] like I’ve said, I’ve, you know, said it very clearly. [00:28:20] Even when like I do set my intention for the day, I know exactly what [00:28:25] I’m focussed on and what will suffer. And for me, it’s not a choice. [00:28:30] It’s just what I have to do to make this business go. And it just means I don’t have [00:28:35] like, you know, there’s loads of people that have an amazing social life. They’re out all the time partying, having fun. [00:28:40] I just know I can’t do that. Like with what I’m trying to achieve at this point, like I can’t [00:28:45] go out and have fun. I can’t go drinking whenever I want. I can’t, [00:28:50] you know, do all these things. I have to be really focussed. I have to [00:28:55] be, you know, like, and with my daughter, it’s hard. Like I did find there was a period where I [00:29:00] wasn’t spending as much time as her with her as I should, but what I did was I changed that [00:29:05] narrative to the time I spend with her is ring fenced. It’s precious. [00:29:10] We spend really rich time together and, um. Yeah. [00:29:15] And, uh, and that’s funny. No, we don’t have a nanny. We have. No, [00:29:20] no, we don’t have a nanny. It’s just we just manage like, it’s really hard, but [00:29:25] we have like. Yeah, to be fair, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: How you wouldn’t [00:29:30] do dentistry without a nurse.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Doing a child and a business without a nanny.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:29:35] You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: You’re right. To be honest, in Belfast, it’s not that easy to locate nannies. [00:29:40] Um, you can get. Yeah. It’s not part of the culture. You can get [00:29:45] babysitters. So we have babysitters. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, we work really hard. Even [00:29:50] me and my husband work really hard and it isn’t easy. Um, and yeah, so that, that [00:29:55] we know that things.

Payman Langroudi: But this thing you’re saying about quality time. Yeah. Rich time nanny [00:30:00] really is perfect for that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. That’s good. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I don’t know, it’s [00:30:05] a bit like, do you have a cleaner? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like in the time that the cleaner is ironing, [00:30:10] you could be having quality time with your child. Yeah, yeah, it’s a similar kind [00:30:15] of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. As this business takes off and you’re nowhere, right? 23 is [00:30:20] nothing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You might have to be in Europe [00:30:25] once a month. You might. You know, it might be.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My top customer [00:30:30] was in Amsterdam for, for years. You know, like it was, you know, that was where he was. Um, [00:30:35] it’s just, it’s just, you know, especially if you have a second.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:30:40]

Payman Langroudi: Are you saying you’ve ruled that out?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Haven’t ruled it out? I don’t know how we’ll do it, but [00:30:45] you’re right. Maybe that’s it. A nanny?

[BOTH]: Yeah. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: There you go. I’ll take that on board.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:30:50] go on to. Okay. You. You qualified?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You started working in different [00:30:55] dental practices and these 16 practices you worked at.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go on to that piece. [00:31:00] What were the what were the lessons you learned, good and bad?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, [00:31:05] the main one, I would say, and they say this a lot, but as [00:31:10] an associate, I think a lot of associates don’t pick up on this, that your reception [00:31:15] team is a huge part of why you might be getting [00:31:20] complaints. So your reception team can be really upsetting [00:31:25] and annoying patients without you knowing. Um, and what it tends to do [00:31:30] is kind of upset the patients, but not enough that they’d complain. But then as soon [00:31:35] as something else goes wrong, they’ll complain. Then they’ll write a letter. And what was [00:31:40] frustrating for me is when you receive those letters where like most of it, [00:31:45] is about how the practice is run or like their dealings with the reception [00:31:50] team, and then like maybe two lines on something that happened clinically. [00:31:55] And then as an associate, you’re given that complaint to handle and you’re sort [00:32:00] of thinking, yeah, but is this really is this really towards me? Um, [00:32:05] so I picked up on that a lot. Um, I think reception teams are essential. [00:32:10]

[BOTH]: They’re like, do you think it.

Payman Langroudi: Emanates from the top though?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Like, yeah, I do. Absolutely. I think [00:32:15] the culture comes from the very top. I worked at some practices where the [00:32:20] owner was, uh, amazing. I mean, he was like on [00:32:25] site every week with the practice managers getting [00:32:30] an outline of how people were performing. And he would have reviews [00:32:35] with each dentist. He would have like performance reviews. Um, he [00:32:40] had internal courses. And I think I learned a lot from observing [00:32:45] that because, you know, most practices don’t do that. They don’t speak to their associates like [00:32:50] the owners will not, you know, especially if it’s corporate won’t really speak to their associates. Um, [00:32:55] so I think embedding a structure and a culture in [00:33:00] your practice is really important, but it’s a tricky one because associates [00:33:05] are self-employed. They don’t like to be over scrutinised. Um. I don’t think [00:33:10] there’s like a perfect answer, but what I have um, found and this was a huge part of why [00:33:15] we launched Medicube is that you’ve got to give your associates [00:33:20] the tools they need to make money. Like if you’re trying to make cuts and you’re [00:33:25] sort of like, oh, we can’t really get an optra gate or we can’t get like that [00:33:30] clamp you want or whatever it or even like a face bow like they [00:33:35] are, you know, get them a face bow, for God’s sakes. Like if they’re asking you, they’ve done a course, they want [00:33:40] to get it for them because they’re going to generate, you know, ten X that in revenue or whatever, [00:33:45] just do it. But I see a lot of, um, practices trying to make cuts. If [00:33:50] you’re not going to give your associates the tools to make money, they’re not going to make money.

Payman Langroudi: So true, man. [00:33:55] I don’t know, maybe it’s the one moving part they can affect. [00:34:00]

[BOTH]: I mean, yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: The total cost to the practice of all the materials [00:34:05] they buy, if it’s a crazy spender, is, [00:34:10] I don’t know, 8%. And if it’s a totally tight guy, [00:34:15] it’s like 6%.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not going to make a big difference to the final. [00:34:20] Yeah. But you’re right about the associate. If there’s a material or a technique [00:34:25] that is the right one, and then you can hand on heart, tell your patient, I can do [00:34:30] this. The tonality in your voice is going to make that treatment go through. You’re going [00:34:35] to do it right. You’re not going to get an unhappy patient at the end of it. Like all these little things. Yeah, but [00:34:40] but somehow it’s like people are more focussed on the cost of things than on the profit [00:34:45] that they can generate.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: And they’ve got it so wrong. And you know what’s really frustrating [00:34:50] when you’re dealing with a, um, you know, a [00:34:55] head nurse or something and you have to go through the head nurse to get this piece of equipment, [00:35:00] but it makes no sense.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the corporate setting.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, I’ve seen that a lot, not [00:35:05] just in corporate settings. I think they, they, you know, often be done to, [00:35:10] you know, ask that person and then that person has a budget and, you know, and it’s [00:35:15] kind of like, okay, but it’s going to take me an hour longer to, [00:35:20] you know, and at my hourly rate. Is that really going to make sense? What if we [00:35:25] order this tool, we have it and you know, everyone’s happy. Patients are happy, [00:35:30] you know? So I think that I think there is maybe there’s just actually [00:35:35] a bit of a problem with how dentistry is structured. And like, I really [00:35:40] enjoy like thought experiments and like disruption. I really, really like love things [00:35:45] like that. I do think like the whole head nurse thing, [00:35:50] like, does it work? Like, does it really work? You know, head nurse ordering stock, [00:35:55] um, and things like that. I don’t know if there needs to be like another. [00:36:00]

[BOTH]: Um, what you often.

Payman Langroudi: See the opposite problem, where they haven’t [00:36:05] assigned any one head nurse and someone like the owner himself is, is doing the work [00:36:10] that the owner shouldn’t be doing, you know? So you see that side as well?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. And then you [00:36:15] see the other thing where sometimes the practice manager does everything and they’re non-clinical and they don’t [00:36:20] understand. And so I don’t.

[BOTH]: Know, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: A hooper now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m at Bupa now.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And have you been [00:36:25] at other corporates as well.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’ve been at a lot of corporates.

[BOTH]: I’ve probably.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Been at five [00:36:30] different.

[BOTH]: Corporates.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: About five corporates. And then independence. So I [00:36:35] worked at Smart Dental for a bit. I worked at Obex. [00:36:40]

[BOTH]: Oh were you? I worked at.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Inspire. I think [00:36:45] it’s called inspire. Um, um, I honestly, [00:36:50] I need to, I need to look at my CV. No, I nearly took a job with my dentist. [00:36:55] I didn’t take one in the end with them. They use R4. I’m not really keen on R4.

Payman Langroudi: Any [00:37:00] war.

[BOTH]: But they don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, so Bupa is good. [00:37:05] Bupa is good. I like the way they run. Um, but no, I don’t [00:37:10] have a lot of opinions really on the way. And also I find with Bupa as well, like I [00:37:15] know I’ve spoken to management a few times like the higher tier management. Um, [00:37:20] and they’re not that open to receiving feedback either, [00:37:25] which I find really interesting. Um, so I think generally in the Dental world, you do find like [00:37:30] they don’t, people just sort of don’t want to know if you’ve got feedback for them. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think generally you can, you can, you can generalise about that. Yeah. Because there are lots of very [00:37:40] innovative dentists out there with the corporate you have to understand, right. 8000 [00:37:45] people under Mark Allen, you know.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 8000.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:37:50] With over 100 number of sites they’ve got.

[BOTH]: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um I mean [00:37:55] I get it as well, insomuch as even if he wants to do X, Y, and Z. Not possible. [00:38:00] That’s a tanker.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I find quite interesting in that they they sort of high [00:38:05] on their own supply of, of that question of we’re a non-profit, which is cool [00:38:10] in a way. Yeah. It’s nice. It’s a nice thing, you know, that profit isn’t the absolute [00:38:15] centre of everything.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yet in the end, profit is. Right. [00:38:20]

[BOTH]: So yeah, you’ve got to.

Payman Langroudi: Someone’s got to be responsible for budgets.

[BOTH]: And.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:38:25] all of that. But it’s just nice to hear them talk the way they were.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very [00:38:30] idealistic.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, but you know, I’ve looked at I looked at buying a dental practice [00:38:35] a few years ago. Yeah, yeah. So I really explored what I was going to do for a long time before I decided [00:38:40] I was going to do this. Um, and I looked at the [00:38:45] margins of dental practices and I can see how they are very tight at [00:38:50] like it is hard for dental owners. I wouldn’t, I don’t envy all of their positions [00:38:55] too, To because at the same time, like I’m talking as an associate, and if I was [00:39:00] in that situation.

[BOTH]: Very.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

[BOTH]: Very.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Different, I would fully understand. Like their margins are tight. You [00:39:05] know, you’ve got a lot of moving parts. You’re keeping a lot of people happy.

[BOTH]: People short staffed, [00:39:10] all of this.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a friend. He’s, uh, doing a nuclear power station. [00:39:15]

[BOTH]: Oh, cool.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds like a crazy notion, right?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was asking him, you know, like, [00:39:20] like, where do you even start? Like a nuclear power station, you know? And [00:39:25] he said, you know, there’s not that many humans involved. Yeah. And, and, and it’s humans [00:39:30] that are the problem.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Humans are the problem.

[BOTH]: I think.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s so terrible to say.

[BOTH]: But, but.

Payman Langroudi: In dentistry, right? It’s, [00:39:35] it’s only humans, right? It’s patients, it’s staff, you know, it’s all about humans. [00:39:40]

[BOTH]: And so it’s such an unknown.

Payman Langroudi: Um, thing. And I [00:39:45] was in a restaurant last night. Yeah. And you realise even in a restaurant, you realise it’s only humans. It’s [00:39:50] not about food. You know, the food is a very simple process that they’ve, they’ve got down to a t.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:39:55] know how to make their food. But, you know, there was a rowdy table on one side. [00:40:00] There were people walking in saying they had a reservation even though there wasn’t a table available [00:40:05] for them. Like just stuff like that.

[BOTH]: Yeah, I’m watching.

Payman Langroudi: Watching the staff, you know, because you do when you, [00:40:10] when you when you’ve been in business for a while.

[BOTH]: You start watching how.

Payman Langroudi: Is the business operating?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed [00:40:15] that.

[BOTH]: About.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: When I go to dinner with other business people and they’re like, I was left waiting at the door [00:40:20] for ten minutes and can’t do that in Mayfair.

[BOTH]: Yeah. And I remember.

Payman Langroudi: Going to [00:40:25] a private practice in the city, um, from Kent. I [00:40:30] was in Kent in a private practice and I thought to myself, I’m killing in Kent. [00:40:35] I really was, I was having a great, I was doing these veneers.

[BOTH]: Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, and then I thought, if I go [00:40:40] to the city, imagine I’m going to destroy. I’m going to be amazing.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I got to the city and totally [00:40:45] different patients. Yeah. Number one and a nightmare to to sell anything to them because they’re [00:40:50] all salesmen themselves, right? Um, but number two, if you kept them waiting. Five [00:40:55] minutes. Five minutes. Yeah. I had a massive complaint because I was five minutes late for [00:41:00] someone. And by the way, he didn’t even wait. He left. He left. His [00:41:05] appointment was, you know, 130, whatever it was. At 135, he was out. Yeah. He left and made a [00:41:10] massive complaint, you know, and it’s like such a nightmare. It’s like humans, right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [00:41:15]

Payman Langroudi: Um, give me your private practice.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Experience.

Payman Langroudi: Experience. [00:41:20] But also, you know, there’s a bunch of people who in the health service were in mixed [00:41:25] and they’re looking to go private.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are your sort of takeaways from [00:41:30] surviving and, and excelling in private compared to NHS?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: This [00:41:35] is so it’s do you know what I would say. Payman like I thought [00:41:40] I worked NHS and I work private and I always thought it was greener on [00:41:45] the other side, you know, like, oh, it’s better if you work private. Oh it’s better if you work NHS because you get all [00:41:50] these updates, you know what you’re getting and vice versa with private. But I don’t think [00:41:55] there’s one easy answer. I think with NHS, you’re [00:42:00] just. The key element is you’re switching tasks regularly. So [00:42:05] that’s very hard on your, uh, brainpower basically like a lot. There’s a lot [00:42:10] of people that don’t do well with task switching and especially your nurse is [00:42:15] probably going to ask you, oh, what were you doing for the next one? What am I setting up? Do you want to make tricks? Do you want this? And [00:42:20] that’s quite hard, right? But whereas when you’re seeing when you’re doing private, you’re only seeing maybe like [00:42:25] ten, 12 patients, but you’re having a lot more discussions, you’re having to document [00:42:30] more. Um, it’s just, it’s just different. I mean, personally for me, [00:42:35] I am somebody that doesn’t like task switching. So for that reason, I prefer [00:42:40] private, I enjoy private, I enjoy doing big cases. I do a lot of full mouth [00:42:45] rehab cases. Yeah, yeah, I do. And I love them. I absolutely love them. They’re my favourite thing. [00:42:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you learn those? Chris Hall, Chris or.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I also did the Dawson Academy course. They were fantastic. [00:42:55] Yes. Yeah. Before he, uh, closed. I was so lucky to get in before he closed. [00:43:00] He was amazing. And. But I go to. I will go to America sometimes [00:43:05] for conferences, you know, like the New York Dental conference, the Chicago Dental conference. I’m going to [00:43:10] do that more and more now. Um, because I love American dentistry. I think it’s [00:43:15] amazing. Like I love.

Payman Langroudi: I love their optimism around [00:43:20] it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I just love Americans and the way they are. Like, they just, [00:43:25] I don’t know, they’re just so funny. Like there’s, they’re just so optimistic about everything. Yeah. [00:43:30] Um, but yeah, I think, you know, going back to what you said about like, what’s [00:43:35] better, I think private practice, you are seeing less patients. [00:43:40] It’s usually more methodical. It’s less stressful in that [00:43:45] sense. The patients tend to be like paying, you know, some form [00:43:50] of insurance now. So I don’t know, we get that a lot on Bupa where they’re like, you know, sometimes you get dem [00:43:55] plan patients or you get people on.

Payman Langroudi: Have you been benefiting from this Bupa thing where they’re sending you patients with £300? [00:44:00] Uh, what.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean? Well, if you’ve got Bupa health insurance, maybe it’s not the same. If [00:44:05] you’ve got Bupa health insurance, Bupa is now saying you can turn up at Bupa dentist with [00:44:10] £300 credit and spend.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh no, they’re not doing that where I am. No no no I [00:44:15] haven’t seen that. No no. Do dentists like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Oh okay. Suddenly books are full of people [00:44:20] who’ve got £300 to spend.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Good. Yeah, that is good.

Payman Langroudi: Obviously from the Bupa perspective they spend £301 [00:44:25] before anything, before they get any credit, keeping their dentists happy, [00:44:30] you know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m sure other people are a bit pissed off about it. But but but then, you know, if Bupa [00:44:35] doesn’t leverage this sort of thing, what’s the point of having a Bupa, you know?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So is it coming off of Bupa kind [00:44:40] of revenue.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. They’re they’re giving each medical [00:44:45] I suppose. Look their main business is medical insurance, so keeping those people happy is their main business. [00:44:50] Keeping their dentists happy is their second business. You know, when you own a corporate, the way [00:44:55] to think about it is your customer is the dentist.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That is [00:45:00] true.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists turnover is the most expensive thing that can happen.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, God. You’re absolutely right. I [00:45:05] mean, they pay like a lot of money for these sorts.

Payman Langroudi: Of things.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Right? Yeah. [00:45:10] No. It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s get on to consent. Medicube. [00:45:15] Why did you go in this direction? So we’ve got the basic idea [00:45:20] of why you were having sort of these existential thoughts. Because I don’t know, man, if [00:45:25] I, if I didn’t know that you started this business, I’d say, here’s a real super happy dentist. [00:45:30] Oh, you’re doing high end stuff.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’ll tell you what it is.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. You know, like things [00:45:35] are good.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, I’ll tell you what it is. So the question you asked me about why NHS, why private. That’s [00:45:40] that’s very relevant. Because what I realised was I realised very early on, like I did a bit [00:45:45] of everything and nothing. Um. Firstly, nothing was keeping me happy, but [00:45:50] also if a complaint happened, it was so detrimental to my [00:45:55] health and wellbeing I would be so stressed about it. I’d be up like, you [00:46:00] know, probably for two months. I’d be like really ruminating over it.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I gave [00:46:05] up dentistry 13 years ago. Yeah, one letter still bothers me. Nothing. [00:46:10]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Nothing came of it. It’s a real thing, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: But it was the sentiment in the letter.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But [00:46:15] the interesting thing is that’s not that’s not actually understood outside of dental [00:46:20] circles. So the pressure and how much it impacts you. And in [00:46:25] addition, because I worked at so many practices, seeing how other people’s behaviour [00:46:30] can actually like pass a liability on to me. It made [00:46:35] me think, I can’t do this job because I can’t actually control anything. Like [00:46:40] it’s too unpredictable. There’s no system. I start from scratch every [00:46:45] day, pretty much everywhere I go. Then I’m given a random new nurse, or there’s a new person [00:46:50] or reception who doesn’t know how I work. I was like, I can’t do this. This is impossible. [00:46:55] And I thought, even private practice doesn’t really mitigate that stuff. So then realistically, [00:47:00] it was like, well, what’s going to fix this? And that was exactly why Medicube [00:47:05] was born. Um, because now like my interaction with [00:47:10] the patient, okay, we have an interaction in the surgery, but within seconds, [00:47:15] like I’ll say them, I’ll say to them, by the end of the day, you’ll receive a personalised information pack about you, [00:47:20] about what we discussed. Um, if you’re happy to go ahead, next steps, get yourself booked into, [00:47:25] um, you know, your digital smile design appointment will start planning.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, [00:47:30] you know, I’ll lay out that foundation, they’ll go home, I’ll send them the information pack. [00:47:35] Everything they need to know is on there. They’ll sign it, they come in. I ask, have you got [00:47:40] any questions? And they’re generally happy. And it’s just super easy. Like, I don’t even need [00:47:45] a treatment coordinator. I don’t need anything. Like I literally [00:47:50] can just make, I can secure high ticket sales by myself without [00:47:55] having to ask a receptionist, can you send this for me? Or having to ask anybody [00:48:00] else, can you do this for me? So it actually creates a little bit of consistency for me. It creates my own [00:48:05] workflow. Like I have my own images that I embed in there. I tell them all the risks that I want to [00:48:10] tell them. Like in addition to, you know, your standard risks, um, it’s something [00:48:15] I can control and I can control it. So, you [00:48:20] know, so to such a high degree that it just gives me that absolute peace of [00:48:25] mind, but not only me.

Payman Langroudi: But where are we at with the product? I mean, is it way past minimum viable [00:48:30] product?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Like, yeah, it’s live, it’s live.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a live working.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s live in Dental practices. [00:48:35] Um, it’s, uh, not many. We’ve got a closed, um, group of [00:48:40] pilot users.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and so talk me through it. So why is, why is it so easy to [00:48:45] produce this document?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, so we have, we basically, so we’ve, we’ve piloted this [00:48:50] for two and a half years. We’ve been talking to users. We’ve had like over 130 dentists use it [00:48:55] and tell us what, what they. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What were the insights?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So the insights were huge. Like we [00:49:00] found out things like people want extra signature functionality, which [00:49:05] we built in. Um, some like implant dentists want to be able to send videos. [00:49:10] So we looked at that. So we came up with a solution with that. Um, we, [00:49:15] you know, found that for a lot of dentists, like they can’t explain things like what onlays [00:49:20] are and they’re using like Google search to like, find images and then show it to patients. [00:49:25] So we came up for a solution for that.

Payman Langroudi: So now video library of.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So now we basically [00:49:30] have a product where we have like we’ve built AI into it as well. So we’ve got like an AI letter [00:49:35] generator. So in seconds you can generate a letter based on like appointment [00:49:40] information, for example.

Payman Langroudi: Based on the notes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So usually based [00:49:45] on the notes, that’s like the easiest way to do it. Um, and you can have a, um, [00:49:50] just a friendly letter. You can embed your consent forms, you can add different [00:49:55] signature functionality. You can, um, add like Google search images [00:50:00] that are unlicensed and things like that. Uh, you can add videos. It’s [00:50:05] super easy. And the associate in seconds can compile that, send it to a patient because it has an integration. [00:50:10] So that’s it. Like it doesn’t take you any time at all. You [00:50:15] can do it for ten, 12, 15 patients that day if you wanted. [00:50:20] Um, it’s just a completely different way of working. And those patients [00:50:25] feel so cared.

Payman Langroudi: For, plugged into all the different softwares. The patient.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s a web application, so [00:50:30] you just log in. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you get into your care [00:50:35] stack or your.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So, so we have an integration with Dental at the moment. So [00:50:40] Dental users are the other key focus at the moment. But we are going to build a [00:50:45] Non-integrated version that’s standalone. Um so other users [00:50:50] can enjoy the benefits as well.

Payman Langroudi: So for now you’re only focussed on Dental.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: For now we’re just focussed [00:50:55] on Dental. Yeah. Um, but we’ve done like two and a half year pilots and in that time we found that [00:51:00] complaints firstly, like very few complaints happen. When they do [00:51:05] happen they de escalate so quickly because you’re covered. Well no, not because you’re covered [00:51:10] because you just say to the patient, by the way, do you remember that information pack I sent you? Can you look over it again? They’ll, [00:51:15] you know, you can resend it to them because you still have access to everything. We don’t delete [00:51:20] anything. And patients literally have chosen [00:51:25] to de escalate complaints. They’ve literally said, okay, fair enough. And [00:51:30] they’ve just not taken it any further. We’ve had no refunds. We’ve actually had like half £1 [00:51:35] million worth of private work go through our process. No refunds, no [00:51:40] complaints, no escalations. So it really speaks for itself. We’ve done [00:51:45] very long pilots, and there’s very few products that can [00:51:50] say what we can say, like, you know, patients actually love it. [00:51:55] And we also give patients a survey at the end and like the of [00:52:00] the patients that fill in the survey, like 96% of them are glad that they were sent that additional information. [00:52:05] Um, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got 40% of patients [00:52:10] saying they trust their dentist. More, 60% are saying they’re more relaxed going into their next appointment. So [00:52:15] we’ve got like really key data points.

Payman Langroudi: So just, just, just walk me through it like a [00:52:20] child a little bit. Yeah. So you’re giving them this document, which is part treatment plan, part [00:52:25] consent, and you’re just saying it’s easier [00:52:30] to produce this document really quickly and really and dotting all the I’s [00:52:35] and crossing all the T’s. Yeah. So. But but how? So I’m going to treatment plan a [00:52:40] whitening composite bonding. Yeah, I don’t know. Green. Amber, red. Yeah. In the, in the [00:52:45] in the long run. Full mouth rehab.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So we, we do an integration with Dental. So you’re doing your [00:52:50] dental visit.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve put that in the notes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: We have an integration handles that. Yeah. So you. [00:52:55]

Payman Langroudi: And what does it do? It says whitening. These are the risks. These are the benefits.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So you basically set up your [00:53:00] own templates on our site, on our platform. And we’ve done like a really [00:53:05] nice, um, onboarding, um, with semi semi-automated, [00:53:10] the onboarding. So you can set yourself up with your templates really quickly. Uh, once you’ve got your templates [00:53:15] set up. Yeah, it will pull all the right treatment data, um, from that. [00:53:20] So basically, if you’ve got a treatment plan with whitening, um, veneers and your templates, [00:53:25] uh, look a certain way, it will pull them together. You can add an AI generated [00:53:30] letter. We’ve got a little, um, library, you can select, uh, images [00:53:35] and then you click next. There’s a video section, you can skip it or you can add videos from our stock [00:53:40] library or embed them from third party videos. [00:53:45] Uh, yes, we did. Yeah, yeah, we made them with videographers and then we got dentists to check them and things. [00:53:50] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, I expect you can reverse engineer it to some extent. I [00:53:55] know, you know, obviously the whole point of this is to save time and make it, yeah, a clean process. [00:54:00] But I could copy and paste my identity notes into Gemini and tell it to write a [00:54:05] letter and, you know, do it myself.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, you can, you can, but then you’re [00:54:10] still having to, uh, paste that all into. Okay, so there’s a few things [00:54:15] here. So you’re having to paste that into your, uh, interdentally send it to the patient. [00:54:20] You also get no, so you get no information about whether the patient’s opened it. [00:54:25] You get no information about how even how many times you’ve sent that email, um, [00:54:30] how the patient has interacted with it. We log all of that in a report that you’ll [00:54:35] be able to see.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a receipt from the email.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, well, no. So the [00:54:40] there’s like summaries. So you can like go into that patient’s summary and see what’s happened. So.

Payman Langroudi: But how do [00:54:45] you know he’s opened it? It says it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: In the patient summary. Yeah yeah yeah. So we’ve got like [00:54:50] so patient summary can go in there. You can see you can just refresh your memory. What did I send them? What [00:54:55] videos did I send them? How much of it is watched? Like we actually log how [00:55:00] much as well is watched? Um, so you get like a lot of intelligent insights. [00:55:05] And we’ve had cases where some of our users have said to us, [00:55:10] some of our dentists have said to us, oh, patient, a patient said they didn’t receive the email and [00:55:15] then they’ve logged, they’ve logged in, looked at the summary and it said, patient’s logged in [00:55:20] and it gives you a time. So like, it’s just so funny because it [00:55:25] helps a lot. Like you do have some patients say, oh, I didn’t, You know, I’ve [00:55:30] had loads of cases where patients say, oh, you quote me a crown. It was a different price. And I’m like, no, [00:55:35] log in, have a look. You’ll see it. Um, it’s so easy and it’s really [00:55:40] easy for patients to log in and verify. Um, I can’t [00:55:45] go into too much detail about that, but we’ve like, you know, we have, our [00:55:50] team is really strong by the way.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about that. So you decide to do this company. [00:55:55] Where did you find your co-founder? Did you go to an accelerator? You did, didn’t you accelerate her. [00:56:00] What was that I saw?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So basically in 2019, um, [00:56:05] I decided I was either going to buy a dental practice [00:56:10] and create my own corporate with a few other people, or I was going to like not [00:56:15] do dentistry at all and go into tech. Tech had really, um, interested me because [00:56:20] I had, I was listening to a lot of podcasts about tech. I was obsessed actually [00:56:25] from 2017. I was obsessed with tech and listening [00:56:30] to things about AI and how AI was going to change the world. I mean, they knew there were going to be job losses, [00:56:35] like they suspected in 2018, that there would be 40% of people [00:56:40] jobless because of AI. That was back then. And so anyway, I used to go to a lot [00:56:45] of tech events. Um, and I went to one. It [00:56:50] must have been completely, um, a stroke of luck from the universe [00:56:55] genuinely, because this event was put on Eventbrite, right? It was [00:57:00] actually for UCL students and it shouldn’t have been on Eventbrite, but I saw it. It was a hackathon [00:57:05] at UCL. I was like, it was sponsored by Microsoft.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I was like, I am going. Absolutely. [00:57:10] It was on my day off. I went, um, and the, the lecturers [00:57:15] there were like, oh, we’re so sorry. This is actually just only for students, but you can stay if you like. [00:57:20] So I did, um, and I kind of watched what the students were doing and what they were building [00:57:25] and it was so interesting. And they’re so brilliant, those students. And, um, my [00:57:30] co-founder was doing his PhD at the time. And so I started speaking [00:57:35] to all the PhD students and we just, we just like really got on and we kept [00:57:40] in contact. And then I think it was about six months later, he contacted me [00:57:45] and he said, like, the students need to do something healthcare related. Do you have a project [00:57:50] in mind? And that’s when I started working with the students and building prototypes with them. And [00:57:55] I started doing lots of courses on UX and UI design and learning about [00:58:00] just tech and how to manage a team and how to manage sprints and all of this. And, [00:58:05] um, then.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you do? You do sprints?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. We do. Yeah, yeah. Basically, [00:58:10] I wouldn’t say I’m the best at it, but like, to be honest, I’ve been managing a team for like [00:58:15] five years.

Payman Langroudi: Two weeks sprints.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, we do two week sprints. Yeah. So you just basically [00:58:20] we use Trello and we just have like list our requirements. [00:58:25] And, you know, it’s actually very simple. Um, and so now [00:58:30] we’re like UCL bronze part, we’re a UCL bronze partner. So we go, we, we work with students a lot, [00:58:35] um, which is really incredible because they are so brilliant and we work with master’s [00:58:40] students now. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You’re basically getting that for free, huh?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Through my co-founder. [00:58:45] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise you’d have to pay for all that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, you’d have to pay a lot of money for [00:58:50] it.

Payman Langroudi: So did you raise cash as well?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: We, um, won a few awards, so [00:58:55] we put in some applications and we won awards and they came with cash awards. So it was [00:59:00] like tech starts. So, um, so basically they’re grants and some of them were [00:59:05] awards, some of them were grants, um.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of better than an investor, right? Just cash. Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah. How much like how much can you get from something like that?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So it varies. Um, but [00:59:15] I mean, in total, we, I mean, we haven’t taken a crazy amount. We’ve, we’ve built our product [00:59:20] with about Thousand of pounds worth of money that we were awarded [00:59:25] from various different grants.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, we’re super [00:59:30] lean, we are super lean. But then also, you have to remember that like my co-founder is [00:59:35] a professor at UCL and his time is worth a lot. So he puts in all this time. [00:59:40] So it’s all the goodwill as well.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but does he own some of the company?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, [00:59:45] yeah. He’s a co-founder. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and yeah, it just, [00:59:50] it was just so interesting, our journey and then we just started to onboard users.

Payman Langroudi: Test pilot not [00:59:55] profitable yet.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, no, no, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your runway? I mean, how much longer have you [01:00:00] got.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Now that I can’t talk about that I can’t talk about.

Payman Langroudi: You must be like you’re [01:00:05] aware of that number.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, 100%. We’re fully aware.

Payman Langroudi: You have to raise money.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So [01:00:10] we are looking to raise um, and yeah, I think we’ve, [01:00:15] we’ve not wanted to, we’ve held it off. We’ve bootstrapped for pretty long actually. We’ve [01:00:20] done really well. Um, because we were like, we are revenue generating.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting, isn’t it? [01:00:25] Crowns and fillings are kind of paying for this company.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was the same with an item. It was the same. It [01:00:30] was the same with the lighting. My wife’s dentistry and my partner’s denture. I gave up altogether and [01:00:35] just focussed on this for the first five years. Yeah, but my three I’ve got three partners are [01:00:40] all dentists. Yeah. And they were paying me like some ridiculously small amount of money [01:00:45] to, to, to, to do this. Right.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Amazing. Is that how it worked? Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:00:50] yeah. But but but I mean, it was a different time. Yeah. It was. Yeah. They weren’t things [01:00:55] like accelerators and.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve, I mean, [01:01:00] I think you’re right. So the accelerator thing we got on that um, through that NatWest [01:01:05] and you know Barclays Eagle labs do that. So we apply for a lot of things and we get a lot [01:01:10] of things to be honest like but.

Payman Langroudi: So the journey from dentist. [01:01:15] Yeah. You’re clearly talking all the language of Start-Up now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:01:20] know it’s a good thing. It’s a good thing. But the, the I’ve seen people go through [01:01:25] that process, right, of someone who comes to me. People come to me all the time with little ideas, right? [01:01:30] Try this, try that. And you can see this person is clueless. There’s no idea [01:01:35] what the hell they’re talking about. And then I’ve often my. These days, my advice is often [01:01:40] just go to an accelerator because they tend to weed. Weed out.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And then [01:01:45] sometimes they get going on an eight week accelerator, not even a long thing, and come out the [01:01:50] other side talking a whole other language. Yeah. And, and much clearer [01:01:55] on where they want to go with a co-founder. And, you know, we’re making investment pitches left, right. [01:02:00] Yeah. And it’s a wonderful thing. It’s a wonderful. So is that what you know? Is that your education? [01:02:05] I mean, you’re saying you’re saying you you were going to tech conferences on your own back.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, yeah, [01:02:10] for me, it was very different because again, like 2019 was quite a different time. So [01:02:15] for me, I did a lot of research into tech, really understanding what I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: Tech. How [01:02:20] did it come about? Tech. Have you got like a brother or a sister or a friend or something?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no, I tell you what it was, it’s funny. [01:02:25] There was one moment like there was actually one defining moment for me. And that was, um, so [01:02:30] I was, I was watching, uh, it must have been like it was [01:02:35] a documentary. It was either like horizon or something like that. But they were talking about, [01:02:40] um, how they were creating AI, GPS and that was back in [01:02:45] 2018 again. And Babylon Health was doing it and they, the GP could [01:02:50] diagnose a human just through asking a set of triage questions with 80% [01:02:55] accuracy. And a human did it to the same level of accuracy. The single issue was [01:03:00] that sometimes it missed highly risky, um, you [01:03:05] know, misdiagnosed a highly risky case. That was the only reason they couldn’t release [01:03:10] it. Now since then.

Payman Langroudi: 2018.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Now fixed that by now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [01:03:15] And I think a lot of um, the, the way culturally people have changed, [01:03:20] like the way people think about AI. That’s happened a lot in the past 2 or 3 years. And they’ve been saying [01:03:25] that like the Turing test, Turing test was like, basically, do [01:03:30] you know what it is? Yeah I do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Say it, but say it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. So basically where, you know, can [01:03:35] an AI pass as human? And people were saying for a long time, no, that won’t ever happen. [01:03:40] And like we’ve completely.

Payman Langroudi: Gone.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Past that and no one [01:03:45] spoke about it. And I remember hearing that on a podcast recently and thinking how funny that was.

Payman Langroudi: But I’ve talked to my team, [01:03:50] you know, people who pick up the phone and I’m trying to explain to [01:03:55] them, you know, that, you know, that’s not going to go on for much longer. And [01:04:00] sometimes they’re sceptical and they say, oh, there’s no way a machine can do better than me. And [01:04:05] then I kind of remind them that, you know, like I go on Amazon and I buy something. [01:04:10] I don’t want to talk to a human. I go on Amazon, I pick the thing, I push the button. [01:04:15] It arrives. Yeah. And the notion that everyone wants to talk to a human. I [01:04:20] kind of don’t want to talk to a human. Yeah. You know, I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Think that’s a London thing, by the way. [01:04:25]

Payman Langroudi: But if I want to buy a flight or something, there was a time. If you wanted to buy a flight, you had to talk to a human. [01:04:30] Yeah. Now we all take it for granted. Yeah, yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, totally.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so the world [01:04:35] is going to change. Your job is not going to get taken by an AI. Your job is going to be taken by someone who knows how to use an [01:04:40] AI, right? You can who can leverage. And this thing you’re saying about 40% of jobs [01:04:45] will go. It’s highly possible.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But it really depends on the number of new jobs that are [01:04:50] made by AI.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s it. So I think that’s the. So I listened to a lot of things like Ray [01:04:55] Kurzweil and, you know, Geoffrey Hinton and all this and what they’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: About who wants to meet his dad. [01:05:00] His dead dad.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It would be amazing, but I do [01:05:05] honestly, those there. I mean, they are the most pioneering, [01:05:10] you know, AI specialists out there. And they’ll say things like, you [01:05:15] know, that it’s very like, okay, Geoffrey Hinton is saying like, things are really worrying and stuff. But [01:05:20] aside from that, in terms of the jobs they are saying, you know, realistically, [01:05:25] even 100 years ago, the jobs we had were very different. We lost all [01:05:30] of those jobs and new jobs.

Payman Langroudi: Agriculture.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Exactly. So it’s very likely there will be new [01:05:35] jobs. It’s just people have to be adaptable. That’s the key thing in [01:05:40] this world. You have to be adaptable, open minded.

Payman Langroudi: You know, what’s interesting is there are some [01:05:45] things, some services and products that this elasticity of [01:05:50] demand. So let’s say something. If something gets cheaper, [01:05:55] it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be the same number of that thing being sold. There [01:06:00] are some areas that if the thing gets cheaper, the volume goes through the roof. And so [01:06:05] those things are going to benefit massively. Yeah. So I take the example, my [01:06:10] brother radiologist eyes can read these scans. Yeah, but there’s [01:06:15] way more scans being asked for now.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s still medicolegally. The [01:06:20] radiologist has to sign it off. So his life has actually gotten a lot better in a way because [01:06:25] they used the AI tool. A doctor has to sign it off. So he’s still getting paid for being [01:06:30] the doctor. And yet they can put a whole lot more scans through than before. And surprise, [01:06:35] surprise, the the the doctors are asking for the scans are asking for way more [01:06:40] scans. Yeah. There’s elasticity in it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. That’s great.

Payman Langroudi: So those areas, whatever [01:06:45] they are, like whatever business you’re in, if, if more of it cheaper is going [01:06:50] to get more demand. Yeah, those areas are going to be amazing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think you’re right. Like, [01:06:55] I think we’re just pushing towards being more of an efficient civilisation really. That’s like [01:07:00] the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But there’s someone’s job in enlightened to answer, uh, lab [01:07:05] problems. Yeah. Now her job, the number of lab problems [01:07:10] coming in isn’t going to increase even however good we good we get [01:07:15] at answering those questions. Yeah. The number of lab problems that come in are the number of lab problems. So [01:07:20] her job is a much more dangerous position than someone whose job they’ll increase. [01:07:25] Ai will increase the amount coming.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also well, [01:07:30] I think they’re talking a lot about now like AGI, because if you can create [01:07:35] artificial general intelligence, then, you know, it can be used for multiple [01:07:40] tasks realistically. That’s kind of the way it will go. So you’ll still need humans [01:07:45] in the loop is what they call it, where humans are maybe specialists in [01:07:50] areas and they’re managing, you know, the AGI.

Payman Langroudi: Loads [01:07:55] of loads of robots.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I mean, it’s like, I like my co-founder is the best [01:08:00] person to talk to about this because he’s got all these like great opinions that, you [01:08:05] know, he, because he, he’s like, he even said we had a meet up yesterday actually [01:08:10] with some dentists and he was some of them were asking him about AGI and he was saying that, [01:08:15] um, you know, he, because he’s got contacts in like that are working on Google DeepMind [01:08:20] and all of that. So his opinion is a lot more, um, configured to actually [01:08:25] what thing, what’s out there? Um, whereas I think for most of us, [01:08:30] we’re speculating on, you know, what, what we’re gauging, but we don’t [01:08:35] see the full picture. There’s a lot happening in the labs that we don’t know about. [01:08:40] And there’s a lot of breakthroughs that we don’t know about. And we won’t know about them for another few years. So [01:08:45] I think that’s kind of the what makes people feel a bit uneasy.

Payman Langroudi: Along [01:08:50] with along with, you know, you know, we’ve all had it hallucinate like her. [01:08:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah, and that sort of non-zero risk that something crazy [01:09:00] will happen by by mistake. Yeah. Not even on purpose. Yeah. I worry more about the on purpose [01:09:05] thing. Like if someone’s got some AI that’s much more powerful than everyone else. That person [01:09:10] can rule the world, right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I mean, that’s the thing I worry about the most. I’m not actually worried about AI. I’m worried [01:09:15] about the humans controlling the AI. Um, and it’s a big, it’s a big thing. Like, [01:09:20] you know, people talk a lot about diversity and I think it gets such a weird [01:09:25] polarity of opinions. But I think realistically, because we have [01:09:30] AI and we’ve got super, super computers, quantum computers, [01:09:35] all these things, you do actually need representation at these top levels [01:09:40] because if you’re not getting it, you’re going to have, um, well, it’s just, [01:09:45] it’s like things are not going to be very user friendly, like to put them in a very simple term, [01:09:50] because if they’re building worlds for people like themselves, it’s not, it’s not going to be good for [01:09:55] everyone. And realistically, I think children get forgotten about a lot generally [01:10:00] in the world. And I think by having representation, you are going to build [01:10:05] a better world for children. I think that’s the most important thing. Like, we can’t just think about the [01:10:10] world for ourselves. We do have to think about the children growing up and what their experience [01:10:15] is going to be like, and how we can ensure that they’re not going to be growing up in a world that’s [01:10:20] like quite dangerous, really, or savage towards them.

Payman Langroudi: I reckon. I reckon [01:10:25] mine and your kids yours particularly because younger um, [01:10:30] could easily date a robot. God, I really believe that. Yeah, I honestly [01:10:35] believe that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Would you be okay with it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I just believe it’s going to happen. Yeah. Because. Yeah, [01:10:40] you know, like your for you page on Instagram, let’s say the robot knows you better than you know yourself [01:10:45] like that, like that for you page knows you better than you know yourself. And how far are we from [01:10:50] a humanoid robot, right? That’s affordable.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, not that far.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Let’s call [01:10:55] it four years.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think they’re releasing them now. There’s like a £30,000 one [01:11:00] going on the market or something.

Payman Langroudi: There you go. But let’s say, let’s say it’s it can do everything a human [01:11:05] can do. And the brain, a brain of four years [01:11:10] time. Chatgpt.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So you know what’s interesting about that? Yeah. I think what that’s doing [01:11:15] is playing to our very, uh, reptilian [01:11:20] minds of basically us being fooled [01:11:25] on a subconscious level.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not talking about shagging the robot. I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, naturally, [01:11:30] that probably is.

Payman Langroudi: I think the version of that will be with a pair of glasses that messes with your brain, [01:11:35] you know, like you dream it or something. Yeah, but my point is, if the robot can do everything a [01:11:40] human can do in terms of motor skills and spraying is ChatGPT from four years [01:11:45] time. Yeah. Like it’s not only people sitting in front of a screen whose jobs are going to go. [01:11:50] The plumber’s job’s going to go, you know, like the dentist job is going to go potentially potentially. [01:11:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, potentially. Yeah. I mean, it’s difficult to imagine what the world would be like, but like [01:12:00] I’m talking on an emotional level, emotional level as well, like partners and stuff. [01:12:05] It could be that, yeah, people start competing with robots for, [01:12:10] for partners. Like that would be insane. But I think that, you know, hopefully [01:12:15] there’s still a human need for companionship that [01:12:20] an AI that knows you really well and says exactly what you want to hear can’t [01:12:25] necessarily satisfy.

Payman Langroudi: Really knows you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s not [01:12:30] necessarily going to tell you what you want to hear. It could give you exactly what you need. Yeah, yeah. The unpredictability [01:12:35] of a human. Yeah. I find this really interesting question. Yeah. That [01:12:40] if we could transfer your brain to a robot. Ray Kurzweil’s dream come true. Yeah. [01:12:45] If you could transfer your brain to a robot and that robot can look like you and act like you, then [01:12:50] when you die, that robot can carry on as you. Yeah. [01:12:55] Now, for you, it doesn’t really work. Yeah, but for everyone around you, it does in a way. Yeah, I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Think [01:13:00] no, I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

Payman Langroudi: I think because your soul’s not there.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, well, no, no, I [01:13:05] would say, look, I’ve battled with the soul question a lot and I’ve listened to Sam [01:13:10] Harris. And I honestly, if I’m honest, I can’t really actually stand the guy. I think he comes up with some really [01:13:15] terrible theories.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I like him apart from his Islamophobia.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, [01:13:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like him. Honestly, I like him.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: He I think he he’s very [01:13:25] flawed, actually, in the way he thinks he’s he’s very emotional. That’s what I’ve picked up on him with [01:13:30] him. Um, his theories don’t really make a lot of sense. But in terms of the, in terms [01:13:35] of if you’ve ever loved someone in your life, like really loved them and lost them, [01:13:40] um, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a connection and a magic [01:13:45] about it that you’re, you’re easily not [01:13:50] be satisfied by a robot that just looks like them, says what they want to say or says, you [01:13:55] know, kind of is extrapolated from their past data points, essentially, because [01:14:00] it’s really just making a prediction on how they would behave. But [01:14:05] I just don’t think that’s there’s something missing. There’s like a magic in connecting [01:14:10] with that person. And maybe it goes back to my belief of thinking that we’re all connected, that, you know, you can’t possibly [01:14:15] really connect with a robot. Um, but then what connects us? I [01:14:20] don’t know, it’s difficult. I don’t think I’ll ever have an answer to this question. I’m just.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing. [01:14:25] I went to a friend’s house. They had a puppy.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they say puppy eyes. Yeah. [01:14:30] I was staring at this puppy’s eyes. There was something, man. There was some sort of connection, [01:14:35] like you say. Yeah, between me and that puppy. And it was just like. Yeah, [01:14:40] like a love. Just pure love coming out of this puppy’s eyes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, yeah, but there is, there is something. [01:14:45] There’s something like, you know, they say that we’re mostly made of [01:14:50] space. Um, you know, we’re just like, like most of us [01:14:55] is empty space, right? But we perceive each other. I mean that if [01:15:00] you think about that, like that’s completely separate, we’re sensing each other. And [01:15:05] so how can a robot replicate that? What we’re sensing of each [01:15:10] other that electromagnetic.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, though, you know what I think about sometimes, let’s [01:15:15] say, um, let’s just keep it really simple. Let’s say you get drunk. Yeah. [01:15:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and you know, the way your mind and and, and vision [01:15:25] and decisions are when you’re drunk. Mhm. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I know what you [01:15:30] wanted to say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now, let’s say that that is [01:15:35] that was normal. Yeah. And this was drunk. Yeah. [01:15:40] Yeah. And there’s no reason why, you know, anything is normal or not. Like. Like if we could [01:15:45] see X-rays and if we could see radio waves, this would be a very different [01:15:50] room. Yeah. They’d be crap going through. Yeah, but we can’t. Yeah. So. So I [01:15:55] often wonder about that. You know, like, is my chemistry maybe slightly different [01:16:00] to your chemistry? Yeah. And you’re seeing my orange is blue and I’m seeing your blue as [01:16:05] red. Yeah. And then, but then real the experience piece, you know, like you’re saying, you seem [01:16:10] so sure that we’re all connected. Yeah. Why?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, I think, um. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’re experiencing it somehow.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, like, a lot of, uh. What’s [01:16:20] really interesting is like, your body grows your brain and your brain [01:16:25] controls your body. And there’s like that connection between your brain and body and, [01:16:30] but your brain chemistry is a lot of it is kind of environment. It’s part environmental, [01:16:35] part inherited. So you’re going to have traits that run through your family [01:16:40] and your perception will likely be similar to, yeah, your, your, [01:16:45] your family and you could turn out very different, but that’s going to be the perception piece of [01:16:50] maybe how you perceived your environment. Um. But [01:16:55] yeah, it’s, it’s, you’re right. There’s a lot. I think we have to be very [01:17:00] mindful of our limitation that we have, um, a human brain, which isn’t, [01:17:05] you know, even the capacity to which it functions at is quite low. Yeah. Isn’t it [01:17:10] like 10%?

Payman Langroudi: Probably.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s something really like stupidly low. And have you [01:17:15] heard that? Apparently we’ve got 36 sensors, something along those lines.

Payman Langroudi: I can imagine. [01:17:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That we we’re not aware of apparently.

Payman Langroudi: Like time space.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. Loads like [01:17:25] loads of things like, um, like even, uh, you know, they say one of them is like when you [01:17:30] think someone’s going to call you or you think about someone and then they call you, you know, that one?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve got a theory [01:17:35] on that one.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So let’s imagine me and you are buddies, like, like like your buddies with your friends in [01:17:40] Liverpool. Yeah, but you and one of them. Yeah. Call each other, like, [01:17:45] within a five week or five month timescale. [01:17:50] Yeah. And there’s actually a very accurate clock in your head. That’s counting [01:17:55] that time potentially.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a subconscious clock in your head. [01:18:00] It’s a feeling you get when that time comes around. When you’re four and a half weeks in, the clock in your [01:18:05] head is going, haven’t. It’s about time I contact that person. Yeah. And [01:18:10] it’s similar with the clock in her head. And so you’re thinking about it and then suddenly it rings.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I [01:18:15] feel like that’s way more complicated than telepathy. It [01:18:20] could be. I mean, I’ve had situations where I, I’ve got friends that I don’t message really [01:18:25] like ever. This was at school even, um, and I remember messaging [01:18:30] somebody and he messaged me at the same time and it was so [01:18:35] bizarre. And we were like, did you just message me? And I was asking him about a school project or something. But [01:18:40] things like that have.

Payman Langroudi: An element of assigning meaning to coincidences.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. I want to [01:18:45] make meaning of the world. You’re right, by the way. I’m not rejecting it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s to say? But [01:18:50] you know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A thousand years ago, no one understood light or electricity or whatever, you know. [01:18:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. But I think I do think that, um, with human experience, I think sometimes when [01:19:00] you experience stuff, you know, it’s real and it’s just intuition. You don’t know how you know it’s [01:19:05] real. You can’t explain it to anyone because you’ll sound crazy, but you just know.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, the reason [01:19:10] I’m saying about, I think experiences and AI and all that is, you know, you have a dream [01:19:15] feels really real. Yeah, yeah. Is it real? It’s not, [01:19:20] it’s not. Well, there are certain chemicals going on in your head that making this dream happen. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So [01:19:25] that’s a good point.

Payman Langroudi: Once, once they figure out those chemicals. Yeah. They say, oh, in his dream, like, [01:19:30] state what you can, you can download a dream into someone’s head. Yeah. Then like [01:19:35] the sky’s the limit.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s true. It’s interesting. Why do we dream? And I mean, they’ve done a lot [01:19:40] of research into it.

Payman Langroudi: How do we dream? Why? I get some sort of processing or whatever for the information. [01:19:45] But if you could do that, if I could download a James Bond dream into your head and [01:19:50] you can now go and have that experience. Yeah, like it’s as real as it could [01:19:55] possibly be while you’re asleep. You feel like it’s really happening sometimes. Yeah. I haven’t [01:20:00] dreamt for a long time.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But again, you have people that say things like, [01:20:05] I had a dream about something.

Payman Langroudi: And then it.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Happened and then it happened. And so how do you explain that? [01:20:10] You know, again, it could be coincidence. It seems like a very unusual coincidence when you have [01:20:15] deja vu where you’re like, I have dreamt this before.

Payman Langroudi: So deja vu, I heard someone was saying, it’s like the left [01:20:20] and right side of your brain, right? There’s a there’s a lag between the communication.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Between. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Left and right. Well who knows? But that’s what I read. There’s a lag between the connection between the left and right. And so in a way, [01:20:30] you feel like you’ve been here already.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But that’s I’ve had a lot of very, [01:20:35] very spiritual experiences in my life. Actually, when I, when I think about it, what do you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean by that? [01:20:40]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, it’s weird stuff. Weird.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to put it into words. Yeah. Because by its very nature, [01:20:45] you say spiritual. It’s almost like words. I know it sounds.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: So crazy [01:20:50] and airy fairy and stuff, but no, I’ve had I’ve had dreams where, um. Oh, and [01:20:55] I honestly don’t talk about it a lot because it’s weird, but I’ve had dreams where like, [01:21:00] um, I’m, I’ve woken up really emotional and [01:21:05] it, it tended to be when I was younger, like I don’t get them as much anymore. But when I was really young, I would have, uh, [01:21:10] I had a really crazy dream about my grandma contacting me and [01:21:15] I didn’t see her face. I just saw her hands. But I knew it was her. And she was passing on a message and a few things [01:21:20] that happened in the dream, like played out in the next 20 years. And it was just really [01:21:25] highly emotional. And my mum had kind of done a reading for her the day before, which I didn’t know about. [01:21:30] Um, and uh, yeah, it was just, it was honestly [01:21:35] very strange, but she would, she had basically told me, um, that she was [01:21:40] really not happy in this dream. And it turned out like we, yeah, we had [01:21:45] a few really awful things happen in our family over the next 20 years. And then when I look back at the dreams, [01:21:50] I realised kind of the scenes that were happening, what they meant. [01:21:55] Um, so it’s just very hard to explain, but that [01:22:00] was a really unusual moment in my life. Like I’ve probably, that was probably the only one [01:22:05] time. And, um, I’m certain that that was [01:22:10] something extraordinary and not normal. Um, and that’s happened a few times [01:22:15] to me. And another time when I was pregnant, I had, um, an experience and, [01:22:20] um, sorry, my boots are rubbing and, um, [01:22:25] and, um, yeah, I had an experience and I know that it was just very [01:22:30] strange. It could have been somebody from the other side. And I know that sounds so crazy, but [01:22:35] you’re so sure of it because it’s, it’s, it’s [01:22:40] a collection of things that would be too much of a coincidence otherwise. Um. [01:22:45] But anyway, at the risk of sounding like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you can’t rule any of this stuff out, man. You can’t rule any of [01:22:50] this stuff out. We don’t know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But I’m really into physics, right?

Payman Langroudi: And that’s I find that quite interesting. Right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Physics [01:22:55] is physics talks about, you know, different universes.

Payman Langroudi: Multiverse. [01:23:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Thing that’s ever that could possibly happen has happened. Um, there’s, [01:23:05] I think physics is so wacky that [01:23:10] anything’s possible. It almost gives you a reason to believe this stuff. [01:23:15]

Payman Langroudi: Like quantum entanglement.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like I.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Couldn’t explain what it is, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:23:20] but it’s like you get two, two particles entangled, right? And it doesn’t matter if they’re [01:23:25] on the other side of the universe. When this one moves, that one will move. [01:23:30] Yeah. And we know the speed of light, you know? Question. So how the hell are these [01:23:35] two associated with each other?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That far away, like it seems impossible, [01:23:40] right? But but it’s a real thing. Quantum tunnelling is a real thing. Yeah, they’re talking about that’s how we would [01:23:45] eventually, once Elon gets to Mars, that’s how we’ll communicate. Because if you if [01:23:50] you rely on the speed of light, it takes eight minutes to get to Mars or whatever. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: These [01:23:55] are all this is like literally how things should be innovated. Like you use these concepts. [01:24:00] Yeah. And, um, and I think, yeah, maybe that’s, maybe that’s why I am, I come across [01:24:05] so wacky is because like, I don’t, I think anything’s possible. No, no, genuinely like I think [01:24:10] anything’s possible. And I do think that, um, you’ve got to trust your intuition [01:24:15] a lot. Like as a human, we’re very lucky. Yeah, yeah, 100% trust my intuition.

Payman Langroudi: Have you always. [01:24:20]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, it’s more of a recent thing.

Payman Langroudi: Me, too.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I used to be [01:24:25] the opposite of intuition. Yeah, I used to, so not believe in it. Yeah. That if [01:24:30] I felt like, oh, I should turn right here or whatever the decision was, I’d go the [01:24:35] opposite. Just to prove that I’m a scientist, although. And it would just, it would get me in all sorts of trouble [01:24:40] and then sometimes, or a lot of times you see like really successful people [01:24:45] and they say, just feel it in my stomach. And I go with that feeling. And I thought, let’s try that. [01:24:50] In the last ten years, I’ll be much more like trying to be intuitive. Yeah. And it serves you. It’s like, it’s [01:24:55] almost like you’re skiing downhill instead of uphill. Yes.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, it’s very true. I think if you’re very [01:25:00] clear on, I think with intuition, if you’re very clear on your goal, you’re [01:25:05] very clear on where you’re going and why you’re going there, then intuition will guide you. Like [01:25:10] I’m a big believer in that.

Payman Langroudi: But do you get like a bad feeling about [01:25:15] someone and for no reason? My business partner is like, he doesn’t he doesn’t like that guy. He doesn’t [01:25:20] know why.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Do you know what’s funny? I have had that in my life. And then sometimes I realise that it’s because they [01:25:25] remind me of someone I don’t like and I’m like, oh, damn, that’s that’s like my reptilian [01:25:30] brain just being stupid. So no, you have to, you kind of have to obviously like, but [01:25:35] look, I think when you’re we’ve got to be More nurturing [01:25:40] towards that side of our human self that perceives stuff that [01:25:45] we don’t necessarily know is happening. And I think that’s what is important to trust [01:25:50] in your life, you know? Um, you know, if you know who you really are and you know [01:25:55] why you’re doing something, then naturally you’ll trust your intuition. [01:26:00] It is going to guide you. It’s going to help you see the right opportunities. And it’s subconscious. [01:26:05] I think like a lot of it is kind of your internal calculator [01:26:10] sort of being like, oh, this is the right path. You got to trust it because I also like doing [01:26:15] what I do. I speak to a lot of business mentors and I get really frustrated actually, [01:26:20] because like, I’ve got a lot of business mentors that are amazing and they, they will tell me exactly [01:26:25] like what I’m doing right, what I’m doing wrong. And they will almost tell me where [01:26:30] I’m going to go wrong and they’ll get it right. And that’s like, oh, I should have listened to them.

Payman Langroudi: Where do [01:26:35] you find these business mentors from the, oh, like accelerator programs?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. Different programs like accelerator [01:26:40] programs. Um, honestly, sometimes I just meet them randomly. Um, [01:26:45] like, again, really weird coincidences, like met one business [01:26:50] mentor on the plane when I was flying with my nine month old daughter. I [01:26:55] was flying for a business thing as well. And, um, I just started talking to him about my business [01:27:00] and he’s been one of my best mentors and he’s like guided me through a lot of [01:27:05] stuff. Um, and we just kept in touch and he’s been great. I think a lot. You know, that’s intuition [01:27:10] though, isn’t it? Like you start speaking to someone.

Payman Langroudi: I reckon you’re a real sucker for, for [01:27:15] kismet. Like for for for for fate. Yeah. And coincidence. [01:27:20] You know, someone could take massive advantage of you that way, you know, like, maybe, you know, that notion of [01:27:25] arrange. You can arrange a couple of coincidences.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I [01:27:30] am very.

Payman Langroudi: You’d fall for that?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, not at all. I’m super sceptical. I mean, my [01:27:35] upbringing, like I have to figure things out.

Payman Langroudi: And have you heard of that? That that idea? Let’s [01:27:40] imagine that you go to the play and [01:27:45] someone’s sitting next to you, and then you sit on a plane and that person sitting next to you. Like for you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, no, [01:27:50] I’m not like that.

Payman Langroudi: For you, that would that would tell you all sorts of stories. No.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m [01:27:55] not that gullible.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m really not.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s an amazing coincidence.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’m really not. Like [01:28:00] when I, when I talk about, um, people that I’ve built these relationships [01:28:05] with, it’s been over years, you know? So I [01:28:10] gauge character over a long period of time. I’m not someone that’s like, oh my God, [01:28:15] like a coincidence. We must open a business together. Like, [01:28:20] no, I’m, I am a very I’m actually a very sceptical person. Um, but [01:28:25] I realised how wacky I probably sound with. But no, I [01:28:30] genuinely think when you learn about physics.

Payman Langroudi: Your mind opens.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Your mind [01:28:35] opens.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I agree, massively.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes on this [01:28:40] pod.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I want to talk about clinical error and I want to talk about business mistake [01:28:45] you made.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start with the business mistake. While we’re on business.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Business mistakes, I [01:28:50] would say. Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: So many. Right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think [01:28:55] no, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: There’s so many to choose from. For me. [01:29:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s a difficult one because I think you you never know when you’re going right or wrong in business. [01:29:05] You actually see.

Payman Langroudi: In retrospect, you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: See the aftermath after. Right? So I would say for me. [01:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: I suppose he only been two years, isn’t it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, we start we started.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: In 2022. [01:29:15] End of. Yeah. Uh, launched our pilot six months later. We’ve been running them for two [01:29:20] and a half years. Um, I guess I won’t really know my mistakes till a couple of years down [01:29:25] the line. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit early.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, but I think.

Payman Langroudi: But would you like, for instance, for instance, [01:29:30] some people might think. I wish I’d gotten into it earlier.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, I think my, my, my mistakes [01:29:35] genuinely are not being. Sometimes more assertive. And that’s what I’m learning. [01:29:40] Like.

Payman Langroudi: Um, with staff and stuff.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Uh, so with teams. [01:29:45] Yeah, so that’s, I’m learning like to manage a team basically now. Um. And [01:29:50] I think again, when you’re feeling a bit like I’m not getting what I [01:29:55] need out of. Certain people and are they right for this role? Like now I’m a lot [01:30:00] clearer on that and I’m. A lot more kind of self-directed. Um, so I think.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:30:05] you have a staff or are you.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, we do, we work. We have like eight people and they’re all amazing. Um, [01:30:10] but we have had in the past, like very early on where we’ve, you know, we’ve shifted a lot. We [01:30:15] had like different staff members we were working with. So I think that’s a big thing. [01:30:20] I’m learning, like if it, if you feel like you’re not getting the best out of someone, you need to explore [01:30:25] that feeling. And I would say that’s probably been connected to my biggest [01:30:30] mistake in business, like not speaking earlier. If something [01:30:35] doesn’t feel right, if I’m not getting the results I need. Um, you’ve got to be like direct. [01:30:40]

Payman Langroudi: Avoid conflict kind of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I think look as okay, if you want to talk about being a woman, right? [01:30:45] Being a woman, you’re taught to be a good girl. You’re taught to be [01:30:50] go with the rules, play by the rule book. And what I’ve learned is I [01:30:55] have to do things my way. I’m not a man. I can’t behave like a man. [01:31:00] I can’t adopt, um, male styles of leadership. [01:31:05] I’m still a woman, and I still have to find my style of how I’m going to do this. I think that’s [01:31:10] confusing for people. So when I work with people, they’re often a little bit unsure. [01:31:15] Um, of yeah, of how it’s going to go, how my leadership [01:31:20] style is going to be. And that’s okay. It takes time. Um, but also having [01:31:25] the confidence to be assertive, like I’m definitely at a point in my life now where, yeah, I don’t [01:31:30] I don’t think very much about what people think about me because I’m not really interested. I know what, what we [01:31:35] need to achieve, where we’re going. And I think that takes a lot of, um, pressure [01:31:40] off of myself. And as well, it’s good for other people to feel [01:31:45] that because then they’re not so self-conscious about what they’re doing. I’m very forgiving with, with people [01:31:50] I work with as well. Like they can win things back. But I have to trust that [01:31:55] if I’m not getting the best out of them, you know, you have to talk about whether it’s the right role [01:32:00] for them.

Payman Langroudi: Have you fired anyone?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: We had to let go of someone. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:32:05] know, once once you get in it for a few years. Yeah, yeah. You end up like [01:32:10] sometimes you have to find someone who’s done nothing wrong.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Why would you do that? Just because [01:32:15] of costs.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it’s costs. Sometimes it’s the role has overtaken [01:32:20] them. Um, you know.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: How did you find that.

Payman Langroudi: A nightmare? [01:32:25]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s horrible letting people go. A to a nightmare in itself, but then you realise [01:32:30] later on you realise like that’s many, many people get fired through [01:32:35] no fault of their own. Yeah, like many people like my buddy with a nuclear [01:32:40] power station, he let 2000 people go. No way in in one moment. [01:32:45] Yeah, because you know that that’s what the business needed it to do.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Wow. That’s [01:32:50] cutthroat.

Payman Langroudi: But he had no choice. He had no choice in that moment. Yeah, yeah. And [01:32:55] I was talking to the guy from Pearl AI. He was saying every single person he’s ever fired didn’t [01:33:00] deserve it. Yeah, because. Because he said if they deserved it, someone else would have fired them. [01:33:05] So by the time it gets up to his level, he’s got a thousand employees or something.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s the thing. Yeah, [01:33:10] it’s it’s heartbreaking. Yeah. And I guess you just that’s being a [01:33:15] leader. You have to do things.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you sort of like the different businesses, right? You’re the culture [01:33:20] of your business. Could be this family thing. Mhm. And that’s not very useful [01:33:25] when it comes to firing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: People.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, you can’t fire people in your family. Um, [01:33:30] but you know, these are all business in the end is just solving problems like [01:33:35] this. Yeah.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It’s all about learning.

Payman Langroudi: About clinical errors.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Clinical errors. [01:33:40] Um, so yeah, I’ve been quite lucky. I’ve not done a [01:33:45] lot of clinical errors. Um, I the.

Payman Langroudi: Most difficult patient.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [01:33:50] I had a patient that actually, that’s a really good question because I did have a patient that, [01:33:55] um, was quite crazy. I’m not sure if they had a little bit of [01:34:00] like, uh, Alzheimer’s or something. Um, I had a patient [01:34:05] like, um, basically do really bizarre things. [01:34:10] And he was, he agreed to a treatment plan. We prepped [01:34:15] two of his teeth. He had like very worn down like laterals. And [01:34:20] we, um, we had in order to save them, we had to crown them. So we prepped them. [01:34:25] He came into the fit appointment and said he doesn’t want the crowns anymore. And [01:34:30] we were like, we’ve done like a full consent on you. You know, this was actually before Medicube [01:34:35] as well. So we were like, we’ve done a full consent and we’ve spent quite a bit of time on that. And um. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: The funny time to get buyer’s remorse.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Was like, we prepped your teeth, like under those temps, [01:34:45] you’ve not really, you’ve got stumps, you know that. And, uh, and then anyway, he left. [01:34:50] Um, and then he stood outside of our, um, surgery and he was [01:34:55] listening while me and my nurse were sort of trying to understand what happened.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:35:00] juicy.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. He was like listening and so and so.

Payman Langroudi: Listening, like his ear to the door. Yeah. [01:35:05]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. So me, me and my nurse were sort of like.

Payman Langroudi: You were bitching about him. [01:35:10]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Well, no, but I mean, we were confused. We were we were stressed out by the situation. And I [01:35:15] was sort of saying to her, did I was it something I said, do you think, do you think I wasn’t very [01:35:20] clear? And she was saying, well, no, he knew exactly what he was doing. You don’t go to Sainsbury’s [01:35:25] and at the checkout like go. Oh, like I’m gonna. [01:35:30] Like you don’t take the food home basically and go, oh I don’t want to pay for it. So um, anyway, he heard that [01:35:35] and then, uh, called the practice and like started being really weird with us. And [01:35:40] it was just really bizarre. We didn’t know what was going on. That was one of the hardest.

Payman Langroudi: Resolve or [01:35:45] didn’t resolve.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you what did he do? Did he go on with the with the temporaries? [01:35:50]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No. Like I just I fit them in the end for free. No, [01:35:55] no, he he paid, we gave him money back. We did give him some money [01:36:00] back.

Payman Langroudi: Is it for no reason at all.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But for him it was. I was a bit like. Does he have something [01:36:05] psychological? Like I wasn’t sure I was like Alzheimer’s or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it could [01:36:10] have been.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Or bipolar. We really weren’t sure. I still haven’t resolved that one, but [01:36:15] that was the one time I was I was really caught out with the patient. I was like, there is something quite [01:36:20] unusual about his personality that.

Payman Langroudi: What about what about what about. I’m not looking [01:36:25] for a terrible story. Yeah, I am, really. But but but what about, you know, you [01:36:30] do full mouth rehabs? Yeah. What about the stuff you’ve done that you’ve [01:36:35] learned from? You know, like we learn from our mistakes a lot of the times. So, [01:36:40] you know, what? Were you doing something a certain way. Realised that wasn’t the best way of doing it. Now [01:36:45] you do it a different way or you know what are gems around? Full mouth rehab, man. It’s a big [01:36:50] thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, it’s a big thing. But I think if you.

Payman Langroudi: What have you, what have you broken it down into? Like, what’s [01:36:55] the crux of it? If I’ve never done one occlusion, I’ve done.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Essential. Everyone talks about occlusion, [01:37:00] don’t they? But like the key thing is like, I hear a lot of dentists say like, oh, get, get [01:37:05] like, um, their back teeth, like their bite through [01:37:10] their back teeth. And I’m like, what are you talking about? Like the, the key thing is you always [01:37:15] need solid anterior guidance. Like that is like number one thing in occlusion, like you [01:37:20] need solid anterior guidance and you need. You know, if you can get good solid [01:37:25] anterior support, that’s like the beginning of a full mouth rehab. And [01:37:30] then you go on to your posterior contacts because if you work the other way around, [01:37:35] that patient is going to feel very uncomfortable. Their bite is going to feel really uncomfortable. So [01:37:40] that’s like my big take home message for like, if I’m talking [01:37:45] to like, you know, other, um, dentists earlier on in their career in [01:37:50] my practice.

Payman Langroudi: But is it, is it that that’s an awesome thing? And there’s another way of doing it that starts at the back. [01:37:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I mean, I think all the institutions basically say, even Chris all [01:38:00] said, like, you know, when you think of occlusion, you think of your jaw joint and you think of an anterior stop. Basically, [01:38:05] that is like the solid it seems.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Basis of occlusion. Yeah. [01:38:10] Everything else. Okay. Canine guidance. You know, they talk. I [01:38:15] think Frank Speer talks about modified canine guidance, which is where you guide on your premolars anterior [01:38:20] guidance. I think I’ve heard anterior guidance might be a myth from [01:38:25] one of them, I can’t remember. Anterior guidance or canine guidance. There’s like this this like, oh, maybe it’s [01:38:30] a myth, I don’t know. But that’s kind of going really deep into the topic. But I think the basis [01:38:35] of it is, yeah, um, you know, your TMJ and an anterior [01:38:40] stop, that’s like the key thing and you really can’t go wrong from there. Like if you get that right. And then [01:38:45] also, you know, there are, it does get more complicated when you’re, um, going [01:38:50] into like centric relation and stuff like that. If you’re doing like a reorganised approach. [01:38:55]

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a moment like were you doing a reorganised approach and couldn’t get [01:39:00] it right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Um, I think, um. No, [01:39:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t done a reorganised case.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, no, I have done them. So basically you just, [01:39:10] you need like a leaf gauge. I mean, the most annoying thing is when your nurse loses your leaf gauge and you’re like, oh, for God’s [01:39:15] sakes, like, I need this. And I have had to have situations where I’ve had to get them [01:39:20] to bite on like, um, no, I’ve had to like, I’ve had [01:39:25] to like do a workaround basically where I’ve got like I had, and this was really, really like annoying [01:39:30] because we couldn’t find it anywhere, but I had to get them to buy on, um, some [01:39:35] gauze and grind forward and back, forward and back and squeeze because we didn’t have a Lucia [01:39:40] jig as well. And sometimes you’re just in situations like that where you have to like make things work and [01:39:45] then, you know, you get the bike ride and you, you know, do that. So there’s ways around it. Like I wouldn’t, [01:39:50] I wouldn’t want to publicise that, but that’s like situations where you’re like, ah, what am [01:39:55] I going to do? Like the patient’s here. We, you know, are we going to really like rebook them our diaries [01:40:00] full? Um, so you do find workarounds sometimes, but.

Payman Langroudi: Comes to mind if I say, what’s the best [01:40:05] dental education you’ve had like lecture wise or course wise?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, I would say [01:40:10] definitely Crispr is amazing. And, um, the Dawson [01:40:15] Academy, I’d say both of them. I’d say they are incredible. And I would say like, there’s a lot [01:40:20] of, um, for me, I think if you get functional, if you get functionality correct, [01:40:25] the cosmetic side comes with it.

Payman Langroudi: So the link between those two [01:40:30] is quite interesting, isn’t it? Because we sort of see them as separate things we do.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit like mind body like. [01:40:35] Yeah, they’re not separate things.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. And I think because they say that your, your um upper [01:40:40] central incisors, like the position of them is the most important in the whole mouth. [01:40:45] If you get that right, then things just fall into place. But I think, you [01:40:50] know, occlusion is taught in a way that it’s so complicated. It sounds like a bit of wizardry or something, [01:40:55] but it’s really not that complicated. You just want, you know, there’s like five pillars [01:41:00] of occlusion. I think that Dawson teaches and you just so I would say reading his book, um, [01:41:05] now I’m not somebody that like reads and highlights every chapter, [01:41:10] but I get, I get the gist and I’m like, yep, I know what I’m doing. Um, but yeah, [01:41:15] I would say, I would recommend that to dentists trying to get good with occlusion. That’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Dawson.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Dawson’s [01:41:20] book is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s your.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Book? Yeah. And Dawson lectures. Um, [01:41:25] I think they’re worth their weight in gold for teaching you. And, like, not just. It’s not just for full mouth rehabs, [01:41:30] though. If you’re doing like a single crown, you need to understand how to check the occlusion [01:41:35] properly on. Yeah. You know, protrusive movements, lateral [01:41:40] excursions, you need to understand what you’re looking for. And he’ll just like lay it down in a way that’s really [01:41:45] simple.

Payman Langroudi: One of the very obvious, very simple things that people don’t do. [01:41:50] And it’s when you when you figure it out, it seems so obvious, right? It’s look at the occlusion before [01:41:55] you start drilling.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. That’s true.

Payman Langroudi: So damn obvious.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Hindsight is a beautiful thing. Yeah. [01:42:00]

Payman Langroudi: Even for filling. Yeah. Like look at where’s the occlusion on this this. Yeah. That’s true. We [01:42:05] all do it at the end.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. You’re like, oh, should I check this at the start? I know I [01:42:10] used to actually check it at the start, but I’m way less way less uptight with my dentistry now. [01:42:15] I’m a lot more relaxed. And yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How about none? Dental. So you [01:42:20] said you went to all these conferences where was like an aha moment in those tech [01:42:25] in the tech space?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, in the tech space. Oh, what do you mean? Like an [01:42:30] aha moment where I was like, oh, I know where I’m going.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, like, for instance, you know how to conduct [01:42:35] a sprint. Yeah. Well, I don’t know if I talk to you. Four years ago, you wouldn’t know what a sprint is.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, [01:42:40] no. But that’s all boring stuff. That’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so what was it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: What was it? Learning online and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what [01:42:45] what is it in the moment in the entrepreneurship tech, particularly [01:42:50] tech entrepreneurship. I mean, the SaaS space, right? You’ve got yourself into like a space that’s quite [01:42:55] competitive.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, there are competitors out there too. Your product. [01:43:00]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Who does dentistry? Does one.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. There’s loads.

Payman Langroudi: Are there loads? [01:43:05]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. There’s not like a handful. There would be. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:43:10] anyway, in in that area of tech entrepreneurship, where [01:43:15] did you learn something? What was an aha light bulb moment for you?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I honestly just think every [01:43:20] time I go to a tech conference, I’m like, this is insane. Like, I went to the AWS conference [01:43:25] about a year ago and it was incredible. And I was like talking. It’s so funny.

Payman Langroudi: Web [01:43:30] services.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, yeah. And what was so funny is like, you talk to dentists and they’re really impressed [01:43:35] with all these services. And then you go to these tech conferences and you see like how [01:43:40] much of them there are like the market you [01:43:45] follow? Mm.

Payman Langroudi: Do you follow?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: What do you mean, do I follow?

Payman Langroudi: When you go to an AWS talk, [01:43:50] do you understand what the hell’s going on? Do you understand what they’re saying?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, dude, [01:43:55] I do, but I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Been hard to follow that sort of thing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Tech conferences for, like, six years. I mean, [01:44:00] I’m not a developer, so there would be, you know, there would be a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Gap. Yeah. [01:44:05] And I sort of say to my co-founder, what does this mean? You know? Or I’ll go on ChatGPT and just research [01:44:10] it and come back to him with all this spiel. And he’s like, what, ChatGPT? [01:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: One of my buddies from school, he’s a mycologist. Yeah, a fungus expert, right? [01:44:20] And he’s global, globally famous guy. And he just became a professor [01:44:25] and he said, oh, come along, come along to my. They have a professorial lecture. [01:44:30] They give. And I said, sure, of course I came. And you know, I went through [01:44:35] dentistry. I thought a little bit, one slide in, I didn’t, I couldn’t follow anymore.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: One slide. Yeah. [01:44:40] But that’s fungus. That’s fungus. It’s a bit different.

Payman Langroudi: It was a 45 minute lecture [01:44:45] about his research. Yeah. After one slide that was lost.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: But I do think because we use tech [01:44:50] products that actually you’ll be surprised how much you will understand.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:44:55] plus you, you’re filtering for that, right? You’re like, yeah, in a way, your algorithm is now sending [01:45:00] you tech stuff and you know, you’re chasing, you end up seeing what you’re after in a way.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. I [01:45:05] mean, when I go to tech conferences, I know exactly like what I’m looking for, like whether I’m looking for [01:45:10] specific partners, whether I’m looking for like what innovations happened? Um, yeah, [01:45:15] so, but I would, I would say, like, honestly, being a founder is so [01:45:20] hard. I don’t think you have aha moments. I think every day is like, God, [01:45:25] there’s so much like, like I had a call just before I came here with, [01:45:30] uh, one of my mentors and I was like, so confident we knew exactly what we were [01:45:35] going to do. And he just like threw everything, threw a spanner in the works. Basically. [01:45:40] He was like, why don’t you do this, this, this, this, this, this is what you should do this. And then like, you’re [01:45:45] going back to the drawing board and going with your team and then trying to manage everything. You know, you’re trying to manage like [01:45:50] your users, like your accounts and then your roadmap, and then you’ve got [01:45:55] your mentors saying crazy things all the time and you’re just trying to make sense of it. So [01:46:00] it’s, I get less of those aha moments because I don’t think your brain has the freedom to just be [01:46:05] like. You know, free. Um, it’s [01:46:10] just so intense. You’re just constantly, um, but it’s fun. It’s why [01:46:15] I do it. Like, I love the challenge. I don’t think I could live not doing it. Like [01:46:20] now I find dentistry so unstressful. It’s so funny how like I’ve recalibrated. [01:46:25] Yeah. As my break. Yeah, yeah. I’m like, this is like a chilled [01:46:30] out day, like the.

Payman Langroudi: Number of mothers I come across. So they say dentistry is their me time.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That [01:46:35] is the craziest thing.

Payman Langroudi: I hear that a lot.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I hear that from [01:46:40] patients when they lie back and they’re like, oh, this is so relaxing. And I’m like, oh, [01:46:45] you have a child.

Payman Langroudi: Saying it was the most relaxed part of her day was [01:46:50] seeing a patient.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That’s hilarious.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been it’s [01:46:55] been a massive pleasure, man.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, thank you Payman. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:47:00] I’m gonna leave you with the final question.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy [01:47:05] dinner party.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: I’ve [01:47:10] got. I’ve got a really funny one, but I would have to have this guest. Um, [01:47:15] Stephen Hawking, I absolutely love Stephen Hawking. He actually inspired [01:47:20] me so much as a child. Um, so Stephen Hawking [01:47:25] definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Was the first superstar scientist, wasn’t he? It’s interesting.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah, but do you know what? Do you know [01:47:30] why I love him so much? Actually, there’s the key reason I love him so much is [01:47:35] because if you saw Stephen Hawking in a nursing home without his equipment, you [01:47:40] would think that, you know, he was incapable and there [01:47:45] was nothing. You know, you wouldn’t think that he was having all these thoughts. Um, he I [01:47:50] mean, I don’t think there’s been a single person in history that has made such a movement like [01:47:55] he did without even being able to really so much as lift a finger. I [01:48:00] just find him like one. He’s he’s literally 1 in 1,000,000,000 or 1 in [01:48:05] 1,000,000,000,000.

Payman Langroudi: He’s wrote beautifully. You know what I found with I, I knew who Stephen Hawkins [01:48:10] was. Yeah. But I wasn’t following particularly. Um, then I got, I got my [01:48:15] phone broke and had to take it to the Apple shop. Um, they said, yeah, we’ll need it for 2.5 [01:48:20] hours. I was in Cardiff. I wasn’t even at home. So I’m like sitting around without [01:48:25] my phone, like completely addicted to my phone. Right?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, now I didn’t have satnav. [01:48:30] I didn’t know where to go. I couldn’t get an Uber. I couldn’t get a line bike. [01:48:35] I couldn’t do anything. It’s totally debilitating. Yeah. So what should I do? I saw a bookshop. I [01:48:40] went to look and it was a second hand books. And the one out of all the ones that were there [01:48:45] was his.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Which one did you pick? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I had three hours [01:48:50] to just sit and read, which I hadn’t done in such a long time. But he wrote so beautifully. [01:48:55]

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh he’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t just scientific. It was really like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like experiential. [01:49:00] Almost like.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: It. Yeah. See, I think he’s he’s a very intuitive thinker. Yeah. And, [01:49:05] um, it’s just so interesting because I think, yeah, I think the way [01:49:10] he thinks is more intuitive than scientific actually. And I think a lot of breakthroughs [01:49:15] are made that way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because people think differently in that situation.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Not even [01:49:20] differently. I think sometimes, again, it’s like a reflection of like another concept you’ve seen [01:49:25] and you’re likening it. So there’s a, there’s a thing, I don’t know if you’ve heard of this, but there’s like [01:49:30] in a philosophy, like there’s the saying like as above, [01:49:35] so below. And that is meant to be like how, um, in astronomy, [01:49:40] um, the stars, how they kind of move sometimes that reflects things [01:49:45] that are happening down here and that’s used in like hermetic, hermetic philosophy. [01:49:50] So a lot of the times in philosophy, a lot of those movements [01:49:55] were affected by the observations they were doing in the universe [01:50:00] at the time. So Aristotle and Socrates were all like around at a similar time where they were making [01:50:05] massive breakthroughs about the universe, like the known universe. So yeah, so [01:50:10] I think that’s why I love physics so much. I think there’s so much to learn, even.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the best science. [01:50:15] It is.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Oh, it is, it’s not. I feel like it’s not even a science. It’s, it’s bigger than a science. It’s like [01:50:20] a science and an art mixed together. It’s amazing. But yeah. So Stephen Hawking’s second guess. Um, [01:50:25] I think David Attenborough, he always really inspired me as a child too. Um, and [01:50:30] I really struggled with the third guest. The third [01:50:35] guest, I just, um, I really struggled, but I think for [01:50:40] the sake of this podcast, I’m going to.

Payman Langroudi: Say you struggled. You couldn’t think of anyone.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: No, I could think of someone [01:50:45] and I couldn’t. So like.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, your grandma. How about that? No, as simple as that.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yeah. [01:50:50] She was she was an absolute boss, that woman. Yeah. Um, but yeah, like probably [01:50:55] a family member that we’ve lost, like that would be my natural intuition to [01:51:00] like pick that person. But for the sake of this podcast, I’m going to say, um, Andrew [01:51:05] Carnegie because I would love to know more [01:51:10] about what he did 100 years ago with the steel business and all of that.

Payman Langroudi: I like [01:51:15] that. I like Andrew Carnegie. Before, actually, I’ve never had any of those before. Yeah. [01:51:20] Amazing.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Weird bunch.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it, man. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. [01:51:25] I’m really super impressed with what you’re doing. Oh, by the way, it’s a product available to buy now or no it is. So [01:51:30] how much is it?

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Yes. So for associates, it’s £43.50 a month. [01:51:35] For dental practices, it’s £180 a month. So that.

Payman Langroudi: Covers. Can you put in [01:51:40] there.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: That actually is unlimited at the moment. We’ve kept it. Yeah, very very simple. And if you go on to Medicube [01:51:45] site, just register your interest and just drop your email and [01:51:50] we’ll contact you and we’ll sign you up.

Payman Langroudi: Seems fair to £43 [01:51:55] a month. Later. The first treatment plan. Oh my.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: God. What I didn’t mention, which I really wanted to mention, [01:52:00] is how much my income has like doubled since using Medicube.

Payman Langroudi: Just [01:52:05] because it sells things easier.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Easy. Like I don’t have to book endless reviews, you know? You get a lot of patients [01:52:10] that are just so like they want the treatment. They know, like their veneers.

Payman Langroudi: What is it about [01:52:15] it that does that? Is it like pleasant? Honestly.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: You’ll have to ask our patients. But, [01:52:20] um, but I think for patients, they just want that moment of like, okay, first, [01:52:25] firstly, having a personalised information pack about you is really like nice. [01:52:30] And I think they enjoy that moment of having, of reading about themselves. And [01:52:35] in addition to that, I think it gives them a time to research [01:52:40] at home rather than otherwise they’ll be going on Instagram and maybe looking up like, oh, [01:52:45] what is like, what are veneers? What are, what is a root canal or whatever? And you can’t control what content [01:52:50] they’re looking at. So there’s that huge explosion of like misinformation Online, and [01:52:55] you’re kind of controlling that by sending them a personalised info pack. They are getting. [01:53:00] Yeah, the content that you’ve verified essentially, and you know the specific [01:53:05] information that is relevant to them. So it’s really nice for them because they don’t have to [01:53:10] go and search for that information somewhere else. You’d be surprised how patients feel really misinformed [01:53:15] generally.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing man. I keep thinking back to [01:53:20] when I was three years in to this business. I was nowhere near as organised [01:53:25] as as, as, as relaxed as you are. I didn’t [01:53:30] have those, uh, grant payments that we were just constantly, constantly [01:53:35] underwater.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Must have been very hard for you to be fair to have Dental partners. And it’s like [01:53:40] having investors, though, isn’t it? Yeah. Like we’re lucky we’ve not got investors, but as soon as we have [01:53:45] investors, it’s going to be intense. Like I know it will be, but we’re ready for that. I think [01:53:50] we’re we’ve actually spent too long in this phase. I think we’re ready to to move on. And we’ve [01:53:55] got a really like.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, you’ve done very well, man. You’ve got you’ve got the products ready and you know where [01:54:00] you are. You know who you are. You know what you want to achieve. It’s a beautiful thing. So thank you. Thanks [01:54:05] so much for coming.

Rawa Jawad Quinn: Thanks so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed being here.

[VOICE]: This [01:54:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:54:15] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:54:20] hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:54:25] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [01:54:30] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say [01:54:35] and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you [01:54:40] did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this [01:54:45] with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:54:50]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover Mini Smile Makeovers, a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training purely focussed [00:00:15] on anterior work, composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the [00:00:25] dates mini smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Andy Acton back onto the podcast. Andy [00:00:55] is one of the originals in Dental business. So head off. [00:01:00] Frank Taylor associates with his partner Chris and serial entrepreneur. Really? So apart [00:01:05] from practice sales and purchases, um, you guys have FTA law, FTA [00:01:10] careers or is it recruitment, FTA media, FTA wealth? [00:01:15]

Andy Acton: We’ve actually jettisoned some of them over the years. Have you have you have you? Yeah. So FTA law, we, um, [00:01:20] we sold out to the law partners a few years ago. Um, yeah, great experience. [00:01:25] Um, FTA recruitment, um, during Covid, everybody wanted to do it themselves, [00:01:30] which they were welcome to.

Payman Langroudi: So, so what’s the list now?

Andy Acton: So we’ve got Frank Chen associates, which values and sales Dental [00:01:35] practices very focussed on that. Fta finance commercial finance broker arranges money from [00:01:40] £1000 to £10 million for anybody who wants to do FTA media, which [00:01:45] is primarily our in-house media team, but also available to clients as well. Fta wealth, which [00:01:50] is insurance protections, investments for dentists, whether they’re owners or associates. [00:01:55] And one of our most recent ventures is the Principals Club, which is a members only club [00:02:00] purely for um principals, independent practice owners, giving them a community of somewhere [00:02:05] to go. So yeah, I’ve got a few bits on keeping busy.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to go with it today if [00:02:10] it’s okay with you is firstly like, where are we at market [00:02:15] market snapshot. Um, and I know for anyone listening, we’re in December [00:02:20] 2025. So if you’re listening to this in four years time, it will be a very different market. But where [00:02:25] are we at right now? That one, I want to do that piece. And then the other piece I want to do is, you know, you’ve been around [00:02:30] long enough to see the sort of the life cycle of an owner. And, you know, [00:02:35] from all the way from, should I start with, should I open a practice? Should I start with a squat [00:02:40] or an existing. The early, the teething pains, the surprises, the recruitment, the scaling [00:02:45] growth. And then on the other end of it, I want to sell my practice and how long it takes for that [00:02:50] cycle in general. And something that you’ve developed that I actually filled out [00:02:55] the, the form, which was the fatigue.

Andy Acton: I saw it come through. We must have [00:03:00] a separate conversation about that. I didn’t like your score.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Gave me a 34%. Saw your business. But. [00:03:05] Yeah, but but you’ve seen that. You’ve seen fatigue in owners and what that [00:03:10] looks like. So should we just start with that? So where are we? Market snapshot.

Andy Acton: Market conditions are good. Um, [00:03:15] we’ve got a still a huge demand [00:03:20] to buy dental practices, which is quite surprising because lots of us pick up our [00:03:25] sentiment, confidence from social media. And there’s a lot of moaning and groaning about [00:03:30] where things are at. But I see it from the crude commercial end of [00:03:35] things. Yeah. And we put a practice to the market. There’s still a lot of people interested. So in terms of quantification, [00:03:40] we’ve got about 7500 people registered with Frank and associates [00:03:45] wanting to buy a dental practice now. Let’s Pareto was a cool dude [00:03:50] and he got it right. 8020 works. But even if we roll that down to 1500 people. [00:03:55] That’s more than the practices that are going to get sold in any given calendar year. So nobody [00:04:00] has an exact number, but it’s probably somewhere around 5 to 600 practices a year. Chain chains. So [00:04:05] we’ve kind of got A3X of, of, of trimmed numbers of buyers that want to buy practices. [00:04:10] So the.

Payman Langroudi: The, some of them will do a squat, right?

Andy Acton: They will, but that’s a, that’s [00:04:15] a pretty small number.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Andy Acton: It? Yeah. Relative to the people who buy practices, [00:04:20] the noise and the chatter around squats is enormous.

Payman Langroudi: It’s exciting.

Andy Acton: Oh [00:04:25] it’s fun. It’s fun. Lots of things in life sound fun, but doing them isn’t quite as much fun as you think. It’s it’s [00:04:30] pretty tough work. So there’s a lot of talk about that. But most people will buy an established practice. [00:04:35] The supplier practices come to the market, never meets demand. So there’s always [00:04:40] a shortage of practice coming to the market relative to people who want to buy. And I think that’s where [00:04:45] the squat market fits quite nicely, because you get people who get frustrated, they can’t find the practice [00:04:50] they want. And on finding the practice you want. You should have a shopping list of things you want. [00:04:55] You should have. Ten things you want, but also have the wisdom to understand that you’re not going to find [00:05:00] a practice that meets those ten things. If you can put a tick in three, four, five boxes. [00:05:05] Definitely consider it because if you’re looking for that perfect practice, it doesn’t exist. And I [00:05:10] think for those people, sometimes a squat can can be a way to go, but you need a [00:05:15] different set of skills that don’t suit all dentists. So there’s that side of [00:05:20] things. But the last component where the market’s at the banks are still loving dentists at [00:05:25] the moment. There was a period about 18 months, two years ago where the banks were just [00:05:30] a little bit cold. A couple had kind of tightened up their policies. Whereas now we’re in a we’re [00:05:35] in a world where there’s.

Payman Langroudi: They’re looking for low risk.

Andy Acton: Yeah, there’s 12 to 14 [00:05:40] hungry banks. Lots of them have fairly recently revised their credit policies. So they’re more willing to [00:05:45] lend to dentists. And banks only make money by taking deposits or lending money. So they have [00:05:50] to lend a lot of money. And so healthcare has always been a green light sector. And within healthcare, [00:05:55] dentists are loved because typically a dental practice does not go bust. [00:06:00] If there’s a problem with a dental practice, normally it’s money being drawn out of the dental [00:06:05] business and put into something outside of the dental practice, and that’s where the problems come. So [00:06:10] we got the banks loving the market. We’ve got sellers still wanting to sell and an oversupply [00:06:15] of buyers. And that puts the the independent market in a in a very, very good [00:06:20] situation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I mean, if we’re talking the price, [00:06:25] price, peak price, have we reached peak price? Because I suspect obviously price is, is um, [00:06:30] affected by supply and demand as you say, by lending, it is affected [00:06:35] by what are the corporates doing as well. Yeah. So as far as price is the price now [00:06:40] lower than it was a year ago, two years ago.

Andy Acton: For most practices. Yeah. So a, a [00:06:45] value gets represented as a as a multiple and it’s a multiple of the underlying [00:06:50] profit in that practice. So everybody’s very keen to know what what the multiple is. Yeah. And I’d say [00:06:55] that for many practices, the multiples come down by about 0.1, 0.2 something [00:07:00] in that order. It’s not it’s not huge. And remember that during this time [00:07:05] practice performance has improved as well. So in pound notes in your pocket, [00:07:10] many practice owners aren’t feeling any difference because their practice performance is improved. Um [00:07:15] the value has eased back just slightly. Um, I think buyers are being slightly more [00:07:20] choosy. I think where people would have taken on a practice that, um, was perhaps in difficulty [00:07:25] and they’d be prepared to, to help it recover. They’re now looking for something that’s in really good [00:07:30] shape unless you’re a more experienced operator.

Payman Langroudi: Give me some. You know, if someone’s looking [00:07:35] to buy a practice, sometimes it’s their first practice. They’re doing it because of control [00:07:40] or whatever. And then people come to you with a list of things that they want for that [00:07:45] practice. Now, outside of, you know, I’m not as interested in sort of location, [00:07:50] that sort of thing. I’m much more interested in what kind of things are they trying to exploit. [00:07:55] So for instance, we had a dialogue. He said, I’m looking for a practice that isn’t doing implantology [00:08:00] because I’m an implantologist. So give me some other use cases. Some of the things people say to you. I mean, are people after [00:08:05] NHS practices that aren’t exploiting private haven’t exploited private enough?

Andy Acton: That’s that’s [00:08:10] quite a large part of it is it? Um, and I don’t think that the, the [00:08:15] thinking behind the exploitation is as strong as the driver just to [00:08:20] um, have control.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, but, but I want to know about the business things that people.

Andy Acton: Say [00:08:25] to you. I think the control is the biggest thing, of course. And then I think it is people. So ideal [00:08:30] is a great example. We have a number of people who have specialist skills and they look at practice who are doing general [00:08:35] dentistry and they say, right, I could go in and I could increase the value of that practice. And [00:08:40] one of the things when we value a practice we look at is the sort of data they [00:08:45] deliver and how much is he’s referred out. So quite often you might have a practice that’s doing general dentistry, [00:08:50] and they might be referring out.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Andy Acton: They might have 1 or 2 implants a month. [00:08:55] Yeah, yeah. So if you’re an implantologist and you go, okay, so you could be referring out 50, £60,000 [00:09:00] of treatment a year. And that’s because it’s being referred out. It’s probably [00:09:05] not being it’s they’re not seeking that business. If somebody asks for it or it happens to form part of a treatment [00:09:10] plan, it gets referred out. So imagine if you had an in-house person who could deliver that, and that [00:09:15] became part of your, um, general conversation and part of your marketing plan. You could probably [00:09:20] forex that number. So those are very interesting ones. People are also interested in practices [00:09:25] where there’s growth potential as well. So these are where you’ve got 2 or 3 surgeries. It’s in a larger [00:09:30] building.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, as in building expansion?

Andy Acton: Yes. As in the physical space where they [00:09:35] look to expand it there. Um, so that that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A, that’s a big.

Andy Acton: One. That’s another angle where people, [00:09:40] whether it’s interesting, whether they actually ever exploit it or not, I don’t know. Um. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, my advice for people going for second practice is before you do that, exploit [00:09:50] the first one completely. But, you know, people understand it as well because you’ve [00:09:55] got something in your head that says, hey, why can’t I own 100? Yeah. And you kind of got to go from 1 to 2 before [00:10:00] you can go anywhere else. And so you that vanity metric of the second one, [00:10:05] then you almost lose sight of the first one could be open 8 to 8, seven days a week and [00:10:10] extra rooms added that that itself could be worth more than the two put together.

Andy Acton: One [00:10:15] of the things we look at is occupancy levels. So that’s kind of you’ve got a four surgery practice. [00:10:20] Um, by my measurement, that should be open six days a week for [00:10:25] surgery. So there should be 24 days of dentistry being delivered across that practice. We very [00:10:30] often see in the 12, 14, 15 days. So to your [00:10:35] point about maximising what you’ve got, most people move on way more [00:10:40] quickly to the idea of opening or buying a second before they max out what they’ve got. [00:10:45] And the max out. What you’ve got is important because one, you’re going to sweat that asset [00:10:50] more efficiently. But also you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Half the number of people like because it’s all in [00:10:55] one site. Yeah.

Andy Acton: And just the logistics of having two different sites. Yeah. Um, it’s harder because [00:11:00] inevitably you always end up in the wrong place. You’re at practice when there’s a problem in practice being and [00:11:05] vice versa. So, so that’s challenging. But also you get, you get other things that come [00:11:10] your way. So if you’ve got to practice at not optimised and not working a really efficient level, [00:11:15] things slip through and it doesn’t really matter if you’re working at a chair occupancy of of 80, [00:11:20] 85% plus you need a really well oiled machine. Imagine if you then [00:11:25] applied those systems, processes and protocols into your second practice. You get another [00:11:30] really well-oiled machine. If you haven’t gone through that process in your first one, you’re going to end up two practices [00:11:35] that are a bit clunky. So it’s not just about optimising it to [00:11:40] to grow more. You’re going to learn things on that first site. So when you go to your second site, [00:11:45] it’s going to be so much easier. But but you’re right. You know, and I think [00:11:50] this happens in, in the corporate world as well. You know, you go to Dental events. And one of the common questions is how [00:11:55] many practices you got now? Yeah. Like that’s a measurement of, of, of success. Yeah, yeah. But from [00:12:00] the numbers that I see very often when you get to ten, 12 practices above, there’s two, three, [00:12:05] four practices that are absolutely causing you pain. They should not be in your portfolio. [00:12:10] They’re costing you money and time and stress. But because we measure [00:12:15] on how many practices you’ve got, no one’s got the cojones to do what they should really do, [00:12:20] which is review their portfolio and move away. Those ones that aren’t performing really well, because [00:12:25] quite often a practising corporate ownership might not perform very well. But you flip that into [00:12:30] independent ownership and it flies because the owner is going to work in there and [00:12:35] they’re going to probably deliver.

Payman Langroudi: Changes the finances altogether.

Andy Acton: They start delivering 300 [00:12:40] 350,000 of dentistry themselves. So the associated costs absolutely [00:12:45] collapse. All that profit goes into the business. Sure. Which Joan is going to need to draw for their own lifestyle. [00:12:50] But suddenly you’ve got a resident principal in that practice and everything starts to go [00:12:55] up a notch. So like I say, it frustrates me a bit on the corporate side that it’s about they [00:13:00] measure the number of practices. But actually I think there’s a, there’s another page to that same [00:13:05] book, which is which are the ones that are causing us pain.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then also, I’m quite interested [00:13:10] in the notion of if there’s one practice for sale and you’ve got a corporate bidding or several [00:13:15] corporates bidding on on one end and then independence on the other, the [00:13:20] advantage that independents have got over corporates, insomuch as [00:13:25] we pretty much know what the corporates, different corporates, different policies are when they come to [00:13:30] take a practice over. And the vast majority of them are going to tie in the principal, [00:13:35] whereas an independent can be much more flexible. And if he sees one, that’s correct, he [00:13:40] can work outside of those sort of guardrails that corporates tend to have to be fixed to. [00:13:45] And the best practices can be, you know, snapped up by independents. Is that is that correct?

Andy Acton: 100%, [00:13:50] 100%. And in that case, so to kind of put it into a discussion of what that deal looks [00:13:55] like, if a corporate was buying a practice, they would typically pay something between [00:14:00] 55 and 70% upfront. The rest would be deferred over 3 to 5 year period, [00:14:05] and the seller would be tied in to some performance metrics to get their deferred [00:14:10] consideration. So that’s not an unusual looking corporate deal.

Payman Langroudi: And how often do they not hit them? [00:14:15] Is it often?

Andy Acton: To be fair, they they they hit them most of the time. Do they? [00:14:20] Um, and where they don’t quite often it’s, it’s a disagreement of some sort between [00:14:25] the corporate and the, the seller. Mhm. Um, the, this [00:14:30] notion that the corporates don’t want to pay the deferred consideration, it doesn’t make much sense. [00:14:35] So let’s say that they’ve paid £2 million for a practice and the buyer has got, you know, [00:14:40] 1.2, £1.3 million up front and there’s, you know, seven, 800,000 deferred. They have [00:14:45] still paid 1.2, 1.3 million. So to try to creatively damage a business, [00:14:50] to not pay the deferred when you’ve already paid out 1.2, 1.3 million, it [00:14:55] doesn’t really make much sense. So this this whole notion that I’m going to get screwed over, they’re not going to pay it. [00:15:00] It it doesn’t commercially. I don’t know why you pay over. Yeah. Okay. [00:15:05] Yes. There’s a significant deferred portion, but they have paid quite a lot up front. So normally it’s [00:15:10] a disagreement between between the two parties. Sometimes it’s to do with direction [00:15:15] strategy. Um and that’s kind of for them to work out internally. But in most cases [00:15:20] the money does come out, but you just have to wait for it. But compared to [00:15:25] an independent buyer, the independent buyer, they are going to do their financial due [00:15:30] diligence. They are going to be, in most cases, borrowing from a bank who is also going to do some financial due [00:15:35] diligence to protect them as well. But there is going to be a little bit of heart. It’s not just going to [00:15:40] be bought off a spreadsheet if it’s near where the kids go to school or where they got bought up, or it’s [00:15:45] an easy commute for them and they don’t want to move.

Andy Acton: Those things are going to be the tipping point, and that could be a 20, [00:15:50] 30, £50,000 premium for a practice. But the most significant difference if [00:15:55] you sell to an independent is on the day of completion. The seller gets all their money. It’s [00:16:00] rare that there’s any deferred consideration, and the seller gets a choice [00:16:05] as to whether they want to stay on or not. And in some cases they do. And in some cases they [00:16:10] don’t. Um, if they do stay on, um, quite often it’s just for a handover [00:16:15] period. It might be three months just to bed them in, introduce them to the team, a few key patients, [00:16:20] uh, and then they’ll drop it off on their way. And my view is that’s not a bad [00:16:25] thing. I think there’s always a danger as a seller, you know, imagine your situation. You’ve owned a practice [00:16:30] for 12, 15 years. You sell? I’m now the principal. And you’re [00:16:35] working as an associate. From a team point of view, that’s hard. How do they suddenly just [00:16:40] accept me as a principal when they’ve gone to you for 15 years? It can [00:16:45] be quite challenging. So I think in many cases, the seller moving on isn’t all bad [00:16:50] news. There are there are some cases where the outgoing principal stays on, works as [00:16:55] an associate, just turns up, goes into the surgery, works it works really well in most [00:17:00] cases. I think the salary is better off getting out of the way and creating space for that new person to, [00:17:05] you know, create their own culture and impose their own leadership style and all those things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s imagine [00:17:10] I’m at the end of my tether, which we’re going to get to actually, aren’t we?

Andy Acton: Are you Payman? [00:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, but let’s imagine I’m an owner and I’m at the end of my tether and I want out. What [00:17:20] guesstimate can you give me? Like, what percentage am I going to lose by [00:17:25] saying I’m ruling out staying on any more number of years? Surely it must be at that practice [00:17:30] must be worth less if I’m saying I’m only limiting myself to people who let me go now.

Andy Acton: No. [00:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Surely, though. No. You know what I mean. I could be open to the whole pool.

Andy Acton: Yeah, you’d [00:17:40] be surprised. Um. As as sad as it is where a [00:17:45] practice changes hands and the owner has been there for ten plus years, and [00:17:50] they go on the day of completion. The attrition of patients is very low and it [00:17:55] hits the ego. It’s hard for people to have owned a business for so long, feeling that actually nobody [00:18:00] really cared that much about them. But it’s the truth. Um, there will always be a, a, an [00:18:05] attrition of patience when there’s a change of ownership, the business change. Any business can go through [00:18:10] is a change of ownership. It’s massive. So when that happens, there will be patients who came [00:18:15] and saw you and they know you’ve left and somebody else has taken over. And those are patients [00:18:20] who have, um, some time ago moved away to a new area, but they keep coming back because they like seeing you [00:18:25] and they’ve always seen you, you were their dentist. So there’s always going to be those people who when the new owner comes [00:18:30] in, you’re going to lose. But overwhelmingly, the patients have a very strong [00:18:35] affinity to the location and the practice, not necessarily the clinician. [00:18:40] They they like the clinician. But as long as that, that change is explained [00:18:45] in a professional way and the new person coming in is, is, is a nice person. [00:18:50] The attrition of patients isn’t huge. So I think it’s a bit of patience though.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:18:55] mean, normally the principal is a high grosser. So if I can make sure [00:19:00] there’s a high grosser, it’s going to be in that position that mitigates my risk.

Andy Acton: Yeah, [00:19:05] we try to as best as we ever can. We try to match a buyer with the seller. Um, [00:19:10] sometimes it’s just not possible because the person selling is 20 [00:19:15] plus years clinically, um, qualified. Um, they’re just incredibly [00:19:20] efficient with how they deliver their dentistry. Yeah. And you’ll have somebody coming in who they may [00:19:25] have only been qualified for, you know, seven, seven, eight years and they’re buying a practice. They’re just not going to operate at the same [00:19:30] level. So that can be substituted with associates because the associate [00:19:35] team, the therapists, the hygienists are probably going to stay there. The other team are going to stay there. And the person [00:19:40] coming in, they want it to work. Like most people I come across in dentistry are nice. [00:19:45] Yeah, there aren’t many like psychos, so the person buying wants [00:19:50] it to work. They’re going to be nice. They’re going to be they’re going to support the team and clinical and non-clinical [00:19:55] team. They might not be at the gross they need to, but they’re going to get there. [00:20:00] But it doesn’t mean that by leaving straight away, there’s [00:20:05] an impact on, on on the value that you you get.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I remember the [00:20:10] last time I had you, I wanted to hear terrible stories. And then I was reflecting on it [00:20:15] and I was thinking, well, these are kind of confidential stories, you know, so I can understand why you won’t [00:20:20] want to tell a terrible story. But now I want to go the other way. Like, do you know if people and [00:20:25] what, what kind of growth. Who have bought, scaled and [00:20:30] sold in a short period of time and doubled the value of. So for sure, give me some like [00:20:35] I don’t need their names. Yeah, but examples of what people have done and flipped, you know, [00:20:40] the flippers. Yeah. Rather than the people who hold on to the practice for years and years.

Andy Acton: So on the good and the bad. [00:20:45] Um, I, over the years, I’ve worked quite hard to kind of raise my profile through [00:20:50] social media. And as a result of that, people think they know you, you really well and [00:20:55] it’s lovely, but the truth of what you just said is 95% of the work I do, no one will ever hear [00:21:00] about because.

Payman Langroudi: Confidentiality.

Andy Acton: Confidentiality, nature of what we do. So if somebody DMs me or messages [00:21:05] me, um, that’s never going to become a public conversation. And a lot of the content [00:21:10] that I put out doesn’t necessarily get huge engagement for the same reason that people [00:21:15] will want to speak to me privately and don’t necessarily want to publicly connect themselves with me. So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you mean they don’t [00:21:20] want to go in the comments and say, exactly.

Andy Acton: Can you help me sell my practice? People don’t do that. Um, which [00:21:25] is fine, which is absolutely fine. So there are horror stories. Uh, share [00:21:30] a horror story with you, then I’ll tell you.

Payman Langroudi: A good one.

Andy Acton: So there was a horror story where somebody bought [00:21:35] a practice. Um, and literally within a month of, [00:21:40] of taking over the practice, they completely remodelled the reception [00:21:45] area. They changed all the colours, all the branding, um, and the price [00:21:50] list as well. So the impact of that was the, um, the seller [00:21:55] had been retained as an associate, the seller’s wife worked as a practice [00:22:00] manager receptionist, so she was still working in the practice. So they just completely revamped what [00:22:05] the practice looked like. The colour scheme and the style had been, [00:22:10] um, decided as a as a collective. The team had sat down and decided what they wanted the practice [00:22:15] to look like. So you’ve steamed in on day one and ripped out the reception area that [00:22:20] they collectively designed and adored. And you’ve changed the style. So you’ve immediately alienated [00:22:25] the people in the practice. Patients came in, saw this shiny new practice, [00:22:30] and coupled with that was a price rise. And a new owner, like [00:22:35] you’ve literally just gone through the book of problems. You should not have done those as a golden rule [00:22:40] for 6 to 12 months change. Don’t change a thing.

Payman Langroudi: Unless unless you feel like [00:22:45] what the existing place needed to be changed. You know, like.

Andy Acton: Yeah, there have been cases where.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:22:50] beauty do that.

Andy Acton: Yes. Yeah. There have been cases.

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Andy Acton: People yeah, people [00:22:55] go in and sometimes it’s for good reason. So where a practice has a particularly [00:23:00] poor reputation. Yeah, it can be flipped as a real positive. But as a general rule of thumb, [00:23:05] just evolutionary. Just have a little notebook, just write down all the things you see and [00:23:10] then talk to the team and bring the team along with you as opposed to jump in with your good ideas.

Payman Langroudi: I tell a [00:23:15] story about fennel. I buy, I buy my fennel from this, the most expensive fruit fruit [00:23:20] shop in London, right? It’s opposite my kid’s school. It’s just there and I buy it there and other stuff. And [00:23:25] one day I walk in and, uh, I noticed [00:23:30] the guys aren’t there anymore. And there’s a whole bunch of new people, and I figure it’s been solved. Yeah. [00:23:35] And immediately I’m thinking, what about my fennel? Is my fennel going to stay the same or not? And [00:23:40] then what really got to me was a very simple thing. They moved the till, the till [00:23:45] used to be there. Now it was here. And for me, that was a sign that things were going to [00:23:50] change. Yeah. And I was on my guard and I wasn’t sure. And in the end, now I’m still [00:23:55] shopping there. But which kind of goes to your point about being being loyal to the building? Yeah. And I’m sure [00:24:00] the fed was just as good, but the fear that something might be up, they might come and change everything [00:24:05] just because the till had moved. So this example you’re giving.

Andy Acton: But the thing [00:24:10] is we’re comparing um, very well. It’s very it can [00:24:15] very intimate, sometimes invasive dentistry through buying a herb. But [00:24:20] but but you were connected to that place. So you can see why that’s the case. But the success stories, [00:24:25] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened? What happened? The patients ran away.

Andy Acton: No, there there [00:24:30] was massive disruption. The guy that sold the practice, um, left his wife left. [00:24:35] So he had to bring somebody else into the practice. Uh, they lost some patients. It was 3 [00:24:40] or 4 months of disruption that was completely unnecessary. If he’d [00:24:45] just calmed down. Just calm down.

Payman Langroudi: Excited, don’t you, when you’re [00:24:50] buying.

Andy Acton: Of course you do. But the thing is, most people own a practice for 10 to 15 years. It’s [00:24:55] not a race. It’s not a race. But then I suppose we also need to remember that the the timeline [00:25:00] to buy a practice, it takes kind of 9 to 12 months. So by the time you get in there, you feel [00:25:05] like it’s been yours for a long while, you know already. I just didn’t have the keys, [00:25:10] but I’m emotionally connected with this location, so I want to get in and I want to start doing things. [00:25:15] So biting your tongue and just waiting. Just waiting for a while. Just watch what’s [00:25:20] going on. It will. It will serve you well. As I said, not in every case, but in most cases, you should [00:25:25] do that. But the the good ones, some of them are remarkable. Um, there [00:25:30] was a guy who bought a, what was a single surgery practice. And typically [00:25:35] single surgery practices aren’t particularly popular anymore. Years ago they worked quite well. [00:25:40] Just dentists worked on their own. They took 8 to 10 weeks holiday a year. It paid them a lovely lifestyle. [00:25:45] That was great. Whereas now there’s much more of a business element to, to, to dentistry. [00:25:50] And this particular site was a, was a single surgery practice.

Andy Acton: And there was a, um, a [00:25:55] residential flat above, um, the person that owned the building had always been very generous, [00:26:00] hadn’t charged much for the residential flat above, was prepared to sell the freehold. So the person that bought it had had the [00:26:05] whole site. So the person that bought it bought a single surgery practice and a flat with the tenant upstairs, [00:26:10] uh, early on, had a conversation with tenant. Tenant was going to move out. So suddenly [00:26:15] single surgery practice. An empty freehold with the potential to turn it into [00:26:20] four surgeries. Um. There was a smallish NHS contract [00:26:25] in the practice, but it had quite a nice flow of patients. Um, expanded it out [00:26:30] into four surgeries. So I did the sensible thing of having the whole thing um, plumbed [00:26:35] and wired for four, but just fitted out those surgeries as they went and it went from one surgery [00:26:40] to four surgeries over about an 18 months to two year period. Came back to me and [00:26:45] said, you know, what do you think? Where do we go? And I’m like, you’ve probably had 80 to 90% [00:26:50] of the game you can have in this site. You really you’ve done so well.

Payman Langroudi: And did you [00:26:55] quadruple the number of patients as well?

Andy Acton: Um, not quite. No. But the amount that was [00:27:00] being earned per patient had gone up significantly. But just by increases prices, making [00:27:05] the experience better. It was a fairly old style practice. Yeah. You know, you turned [00:27:10] up, you got your dentist and you went there wasn’t really much experience that went with it. So by elevating. [00:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: At that point.

Andy Acton: Yeah. So he got to he got to four surgeries and he came back to me and said, you [00:27:20] know, where do I go from here? And I said, I don’t think you can do much more with it. I said, if you’re content running this [00:27:25] practice, it will throw off lovely profit, but you can’t really expand more. So you either need to get another [00:27:30] site. Um, but be aware you’ve then got two sites to manage. Um, or what [00:27:35] you might want to do is basically cash in, you know, take, take the gain on this site and get [00:27:40] another site, which is what he did.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of figures are we talking? How much did he buy it for? How much do you sell it for?

Andy Acton: So he bought it [00:27:45] for it was about 400 for the practice. [00:27:50] Yeah. Um and the freehold I think was like two, 250 something like that. If you take the [00:27:55] freehold out it’s about 400 for the practice. And when it came out it went for it was nearly 2 million. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: How many years.

Andy Acton: For. Oh yeah. The process [00:28:05] end to end to end was a four year process.

Payman Langroudi: And did he do that again as well? Like some, some people are just good. Yeah. [00:28:10]

Andy Acton: Yeah. There’s a number of people who.

Payman Langroudi: Are good at that.

Andy Acton: Have the ability And we’re in a new. [00:28:15] We’re in a new dimension now in. When I so I started in, in, in [00:28:20] this game back in 2000. So I took 25 years ago. And back then there were very [00:28:25] few business minded entrepreneurial dentists. Most people got into ownership [00:28:30] for the same reason it is today. It kind of locked them in. It gives them kind of a certainty of future. But [00:28:35] the business skills weren’t there, and in essence, the demand was [00:28:40] sufficient to keep them in business and keep them going. And that’s just the way it was. Now, [00:28:45] uh, I talk to people who are doing their A-levels who haven’t [00:28:50] even got into dental school yet, who are saying, so how do I grow a group? What’s the best way [00:28:55] to grow a group? Can you talk me through private equity? How does that work? These guys, they’re kids, you know, [00:29:00] I kid you not, you know, they’re sort of 16, 17 year olds, you know, at home on a Zoom call. It’s [00:29:05] wild how how the world’s moved. And there’s lots of people who are [00:29:10] just coming out of dental school. They’re just doing their PhD and they’re saying to me, is it too early [00:29:15] to practice? What does it look like? What do I.

Payman Langroudi: Need to do? The dental student in Liverpool who owns a practice.

Andy Acton: I [00:29:20] think I probably.

Payman Langroudi: Do know the guy. Yes it.

Andy Acton: Is. And [00:29:25] it’s it’s amazing and it’s brilliant. And it’s great that these opportunities are out [00:29:30] there and the world’s moving that fast. I think my only word of caution is it doesn’t have [00:29:35] to apply and look like that for everybody. Because just because you have access to [00:29:40] the resources to enable you to buy a practice doesn’t necessarily mean you should. And [00:29:45] there are lots of families who perhaps clumped together some resources to enable a [00:29:50] family member to buy a business, which which is brilliant. And that bank of mum and dad works strong with [00:29:55] some bank funding. That’s a great way to get into ownership. The only issue it brings is lots [00:30:00] of these young guys, they’re just not rounded enough yet. And going back to the point about [00:30:05] dentistry as a career, hopefully it’s going to be something you’re in for 20, 30, 40 years. Learn [00:30:10] how to talk to patients. Learn how to communicate those interpersonal [00:30:15] skills. I’m not clinical at all. But as I understand, lots of younger dentists are coming out of dental school and they haven’t [00:30:20] had the the wet handed experience that perhaps they would have when you’d have qualified. So you need to kind of really [00:30:25] tune in and learn those things. And once you’ve got that, that foundation sorted, you can [00:30:30] then build on that foundation. Whereas if you start too early because you don’t know what you don’t know, [00:30:35] there could be gaps in what you’re doing and they could be masked by [00:30:40] money being introduced into the business. And I just think that there’s a danger that we [00:30:45] move too quickly. And because many of these things are so public through social media, it does put [00:30:50] pressure on people to feel that they’ve got to be in that same rat race. But I don’t think it has to be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:30:55] funny you asked dentists this question all the time, but I’m kind of interested in what you’ve got to say about it. Would you encourage [00:31:00] your kids to become dentists?

Andy Acton: Probably [00:31:05] not.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Andy Acton: Probably not. Go on. Um, I think the, um, I [00:31:10] think the health tol, um, doesn’t necessarily get talked about enough. Um, [00:31:15] the amount of people I see with serious back and neck issues [00:31:20] and just, just generally, um, the, the toll it’s taken [00:31:25] on the body.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re, you’re seeing a bunch of people who have to sell their practice [00:31:30] due to medical.

Andy Acton: Yeah. I mean, you had, you had Randeep Gill on recently, who’s doing the CFO [00:31:35] thing. He he he he’s one, you know um, we work with through the principles club. We work with [00:31:40] guy George Vernon who’s a kind of, um, wellness and personal trainer and coach. He [00:31:45] has clients. Same situation. In fact, we’re bringing out something next year to help dentists with this [00:31:50] very thing. Yeah. They spend hour after hour in their surgery leaning over a patient. And [00:31:55] sure, there’s great ergonomic stools and there’s, you know, things to help you, but [00:32:00] it’s a very physical thing. And I see a lot of dentists who are struggling physically as a result [00:32:05] of it. And I think there’s also a hidden stress of being a dentist, regardless [00:32:10] of being a practice owner. I think just being a dentist, I think it’s quite a stressful thing to do because [00:32:15] everybody’s aware that the GDC are there. Everybody is aware that. I think as a country, we [00:32:20] are becoming slightly more litigious. I don’t think it’s, you know, anything like as rampant as perhaps [00:32:25] people think, but that’s whirring away in the background. You know, you’re doing microsurgery, [00:32:30] you know, hour after hour, day after day. So there’s risks that come with that. And I [00:32:35] think there’s a stress that builds up in the background, and that stress that builds up in the background coupled [00:32:40] with the physical side of things. I think from my side, you know, I look [00:32:45] at it from a business perspective, but I don’t think it’s for the faint hearted. I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [00:32:50]

Andy Acton: Quite a serious.

Payman Langroudi: Undertaking seeing that firsthand, and it’s both physical and mental. It is. [00:32:55]

Andy Acton: It is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Issues that people have, and obviously dentists have famously had mental, mental [00:33:00] health issues that, you know, not not only since the GDC. Right? It’s been. Years [00:33:05] and years.

Andy Acton: It’s been talked about a lot in terms of just how how it affects dentists. [00:33:10] And when you look at, you know, dentists compared to other professions, sadly, it ranks incredibly [00:33:15] highly in terms of the mental health impact it has on clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk [00:33:20] about the subject of fatigue, which I guess in a way is the beginnings of [00:33:25] anxiety, you know, mental health issues around your [00:33:30] work. Yeah, in, in a way, that’s what it is. It’s, I guess, a combination of mental and physical things. [00:33:35] But fatigue is a business owner and you’re saying it’s quite common ten [00:33:40] years in.

Andy Acton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting to me. That seems quite young. How old are most people [00:33:45] when they’re buying practices? 30 young, early 30s. Yeah.

Andy Acton: When, when I started, [00:33:50] people tend to own practice for about 15 years and they sold around [00:33:55] 60 early 60s. So they’d buy when they were about 45 and they’d get out at 45. [00:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Really?

Andy Acton: Yeah. So it was it was slightly later in life. It wasn’t anything like as young as it is now. [00:34:05] And they would then exit, um, 60, early 60s, something like that. I think now [00:34:10] we’re seeing lots of buyers who are, um, 30 early 30s, um, and they’re [00:34:15] exiting after 10 to 12 years. So they’re coming.

Payman Langroudi: Out seem young. So what are they doing after that? Whatever they’re doing.

Andy Acton: I [00:34:20] think they, um, they either stay on working clinically, um, or they take some time out and [00:34:25] then they come back and have another go on the radio because it’s it, whereas it always used to be [00:34:30] Dental school, you know, a decade as an associate by practice, exit, [00:34:35] retire, that kind of was a very typical cycle that most people went through. Now [00:34:40] it’s kind of qualify within 2 or 3 years. Start looking for a practice by practice, probably [00:34:45] got a side hustle of some sort going on or other then. But quite often these people don’t just limit all [00:34:50] their, um, their business activities to, to Dental practice. Um, they own [00:34:55] that practice for a period of time and linking it to that guy that did incredibly well [00:35:00] and grew that practice from 1 to 4 surgeries. Quite often people, they’re seeing the growth in their [00:35:05] practice and they’re like, okay, so if I maximise the returns on this practice and they’re [00:35:10] staying in touch with where the market’s at and they’re thinking, right, so perhaps now might not be a bad time [00:35:15] to exit. And then they look for another practice that might not be performing particularly well. So there’s [00:35:20] very there’s, there’s more cycles taking place in a Dental career than there was previously.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:35:25] your 25 years. How’s the valuation angle [00:35:30] changed? Because I remember years ago it wasn’t to do with Ebit. No, it was to do with [00:35:35] your gross multiplied by what was a percentage. Yeah. Lower than 100% [00:35:40] of your gross or something like that. Almost 100%. Your growth.

Andy Acton: There was a notion that and [00:35:45] it was just one of these things that.

Payman Langroudi: Was just a legacy thing.

Andy Acton: It just got made up and everyone stuck to it. Yeah, it. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: Was probably Frank Taylor. It was only him.

Andy Acton: Let’s blame.

Payman Langroudi: Him.

Andy Acton: But for a long [00:35:55] while, everybody assumed it was 33% of turnover. That’s what that’s what people said [00:36:00] it was it was 33% of turnover.

Payman Langroudi: Like maybe like one year’s Eve. Yeah.

Andy Acton: And, and [00:36:05] then.

Payman Langroudi: One and a half years.

Andy Acton: Then what happened was it moved to, um, a, [00:36:10] a multiple of underlying profit. Yeah. And much of that was being driven by [00:36:15] the, the, the funders, um, not necessarily the traditional banks because the traditional [00:36:20] banks were quite happy with that, that percentage approach. But as external investment and private [00:36:25] equity came in, those guys were very much used to looking at the underlying profitability in the business, which I completely [00:36:30] understand. And so as a result of that, people were saying, so what’s the, what’s the, the EBITDA? [00:36:35] Um, so we said, well, okay, we can let you have the EBITDA number, but the, the EBITDA [00:36:40] number is great, but there’s two different EBITDA numbers. And this is where it gets a bit confusing when [00:36:45] people start talking about multiples because there’s the EBITDA number, which is [00:36:50] principles. Exactly. So you’ve got a dental practice operating purely on an associate [00:36:55] led basis. So the associate costs are going to be higher. And there’s a multiple that applies to that number. [00:37:00] And then you might have the same practice with the principal working in it. Reduce reliance [00:37:05] on associates. So the underlying profitability is higher.

Andy Acton: And there’s a multiple that’s applied to that. [00:37:10] And there is an argument and a logic that says, but the underlying profits are the same because one of them’s just got the cost [00:37:15] of the owner in there. And it does. But how the owner wants to treat that that income is entirely up to [00:37:20] them. They may have a need to, to draw all of that money. They may not. So there’s those two different [00:37:25] models, but the, the multiple in the majority of cases doesn’t [00:37:30] actually change the value. So you might have a practice that’s completely reliant on associates. [00:37:35] That is, that has an underlying profit of 100,000 and [00:37:40] that might have a multiple of, of seven times applied to it. So you’ve got a 700,000 [00:37:45] valuation. And then on the other side of things, you might have a practice that because the [00:37:50] principal is working in that practice, you’ve got a value of of £300,000, [00:37:55] but it might only have a multiple of 2.4 times applied to [00:38:00] it, which is probably 700,000. So the the underlying values are actually the same. Um, [00:38:05] but, but the other element that.

Payman Langroudi: That same practice in the year 2000 [00:38:10] would be worth a lot less, right? Oh for.

Andy Acton: Sure. Oh oh back in 2000, um, [00:38:15] it was the significant change was 2006. [00:38:20] So for many of your listeners, they probably weren’t around then. [00:38:25] Like old guys like us were. But that was when what is still referred to as the new [00:38:30] GDS contract came in. That was when, prior to that, as an NHS provider, it was items [00:38:35] of service. It was literally you got paid for what you did. It was amazing. Whereas then I went, oh, hold on, this [00:38:40] is from a budget point of view. This is a nightmare. So could we give you a fixed contract to deliver [00:38:45] udas? Yeah, and that would be amazing. So Dental practices then got a contract. But [00:38:50] the reason it affected value so much, it wasn’t necessarily. The contracts were so amazing. [00:38:55]

Payman Langroudi: But they were contracts. They were government contracts.

Andy Acton: Yeah, they were government contracts, which were evergreen. [00:39:00] And I would love to have a business where I just got paid year in, year out, as long as I kept delivering against [00:39:05] my metrics. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. But what it did is it put every associate out there at risk [00:39:10] because back then there were very few pure private practices. They [00:39:15] all had NHS contracts. So if someone has capped your income effectively by giving you an [00:39:20] NHS contract, if you want to enhance a profitability in your business, you need to reduce your costs. [00:39:25] And the major costs in a dental practice is associates. So if I was earning, say, [00:39:30] £200,000 of profit and this new contracts come in and I run my numbers and I go, oh, I’m [00:39:35] now only going to earn £150,000 a year, but I’d still like to earn £200,000. [00:39:40] So how do I add £50,000 to my profit? Well, if I did some more [00:39:45] updates and had a reduced reliance on associates, I still get £200,000. Excellent. [00:39:50] So I’m going to do some more. And then you as my associate. I don’t need you for three days anymore. I need you for a day and a half. [00:39:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andy Acton: So suddenly associates are feeling vulnerable. They’re like, geez, this is a nightmare. So how do I fix [00:40:00] that? I go further up the food chain and I buy a practice and that fixes it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:40:05] interesting though, in a way like on your side for your business that [00:40:10] you’re doing the same work in the year 2000 [00:40:15] as you are in the year 2025, but you’re getting way more money per sale. [00:40:20] Yes, it’s quite interesting. At the same time, dentists were were charging nothing [00:40:25] for a crown back then and charging a thousand.

Andy Acton: And I think the world’s changed. I think the work that [00:40:30] we have to put in to get a sale away is significantly different. So back [00:40:35] in, in the early days, you would literally send a practice out to the market to launch it. [00:40:40] And that was a piece of paper in an envelope with a stamp taken to the post office. And then basically [00:40:45] you just carry on with your job and you’d wait, and hopefully somebody would ring in and you’d arrange a viewing. [00:40:50] And once an offer was accepted literally 2 or 3 months later. The [00:40:55] deal completed.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Andy Acton: People switched over. That was it, really? Well, the thing is, back then there [00:41:00] was no this kind of you know, in the early days, there was no no version of an NHS contract from one party [00:41:05] to another going through the partnership route. Um, the Care Quality Commission, nobody even thought about [00:41:10] that idea. Um many of the practices were uh, owned [00:41:15] as a, as a freehold. Um, or if it were, if they were creating a lease, it was Yona whereas there’s way [00:41:20] more third party landlords now. So third party landlord being, I own the dental [00:41:25] practice, but I have a lease in place with somebody else. You buy my business, but you’re not [00:41:30] buying the building. But the landlord has to transfer the lease from me to you. And [00:41:35] from the landlord’s point of view, frankly, it’s a nuisance. I’m paying the landlord rent, and then you’re going to pay [00:41:40] them rent. So not a lot changes for them, but they have to go through this hassle. So that can take time.

Payman Langroudi: So then so [00:41:45] the business cycle is elongated as far as that’s a massive for any business that’s a pain.

Andy Acton: Oh. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not just the pain, it’s financially. Yeah.

Andy Acton: And it’s, it’s it’s three times longer. [00:41:55] You know, a three month transaction was not unusual. Now it’s routinely nine months. And the [00:42:00] problem that brings is momentum. Anything in life we can get momentum into anything. It’s more likely to happen. [00:42:05] If you think about if you’re doing a decorating job at home, you know, if you kind of get the plumber in, great, [00:42:10] the electrician turns in, you order the new bits for the bathroom. Great. That’s good. If any part of that got [00:42:15] disrupted, a job that could take 4 or 5 weeks could take six months. Just [00:42:20] because you lost momentum, you couldn’t get into the rhythm of it. It’s exactly the same in a practice sale. If you can [00:42:25] keep bouncing from an offer accepted to a bank valuation to the CQC registration going [00:42:30] in to getting the third party landlord onside, the NHS contract, if all those things can keep happening [00:42:35] and it bounces, everybody stays engaged and excited. If any one of those stalls or slows down [00:42:40] trying to get that rhythm back into a deal, it’s not. It’s not particularly easy.

Payman Langroudi: Before [00:42:45] we move on to this fatigue question, one last thing from the raising [00:42:50] finance perspective, where are we at? Like, how much do I need? What percentage of the value of [00:42:55] the practice do I need to raise? Personally, typically right now in December [00:43:00] 25th.

Andy Acton: So it’s safe to have 10%. Um, average practice [00:43:05] in the UK at the moment around about eight £900,000. So it’s safe to have 10%. It’s 80 90,000. [00:43:10] Your legal and other costs say an extra £20,000. So if you’ve got 100, [00:43:15] £110,000, you’re in a very safe category at that level. However, at the moment [00:43:20] there are banks that will lend you up to 100% of the [00:43:25] purchase price, which is staggering, absolutely staggering. And they’ll lend you 100% [00:43:30] of the freehold purchase price as well. So there are banks out there in theory, [00:43:35] that require you to put no money in at all. However, it will be very dependent [00:43:40] on the performance of the business you’re buying and your own personal profile as well. For [00:43:45] safety’s sake, I’d say have your 10% put aside. It’s always better to have it and not need it [00:43:50] than not have it. And you’ve got a problem. And the banks at the moment the rates are [00:43:55] very generous. Um, many of them are sub 2% above base rate. And [00:44:00] to put that into context for me as a non dentist, if I want to borrow money for a venture, [00:44:05] if I can get 50% of the total investment, I’ve done very well and my interest rate [00:44:10] will be something like 6 to 7% above base rate.

Payman Langroudi: So big difference.

Andy Acton: Huge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:44:15]

Andy Acton: We only see the world as we see it though. So dentists are things aren’t as they used to be. And [00:44:20] you know, there have been times when they’ve been slightly more generous, but we are in a window where [00:44:25] the banks haven’t been much more generous than they are today at the moment. Being able to.

Payman Langroudi: Remember [00:44:30] the famous 110%, which is a beautiful thing, wasn’t it? Yeah. Money to [00:44:35] do it up as well. You know, as.

Andy Acton: A borrower, it’s a beautiful thing. But I think that that [00:44:40] phrase skin in the game, I always think where somebody hasn’t got anything in [00:44:45] the ability for them just to fold and walk away. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:44:50] doesn’t happen in Dental though. So much does it? It doesn’t, I mean.

Andy Acton: But um, but I still think in any [00:44:55] situation, I think it was quite nice. And even now, um, even at 10%, [00:45:00] someone’s still putting in 90% and you might be able to get 100%. Um, [00:45:05] but I think it changes, it shifts your, um, attitude to it if [00:45:10] you part with money, you know, if, if you do an event.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. Yeah, it seems obvious.

Andy Acton: But the thing is you, [00:45:15] you, you arrange lots of events and your, your exemplary at creating an environment [00:45:20] and a, and a package that people want to come to, but [00:45:25] where your events are free, whereas where somebody has to pay a token gesture, [00:45:30] totally different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andy Acton: The commitment changes and we just, we just behave differently when things are free. We don’t [00:45:35] attribute the same value to it. So I think putting money in is always a good thing, even though we don’t [00:45:40] perhaps think it as a person putting the money in, I think it actually is a good thing.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about this life cycle then. [00:45:45] Yeah, I by the practice, the, the teething pains, all of that. Let’s [00:45:50] get to the other side of it. The, the when, when the fatigue starts, which you’re saying eight, [00:45:55] ten years in, what are the signs and symptoms of that fatigue?

Andy Acton: So this is, [00:46:00] this is not this is not kind of a scientific approach. This isn’t [00:46:05] an evidence based approach of my 25 years experience. And what I see is [00:46:10] around about 8 to 10 years. For some, it can be 10 to 12 years, but around 8 to 10 year window, [00:46:15] um, owners start to suffer owner fatigue. And they don’t in many [00:46:20] cases know they’ve got it. They can’t always articulate what it looks like, but I’ve, I’ve [00:46:25] built it. I’ve thought about it in terms of five different categories. And [00:46:30] the five categories it seems to fall into is emotional load. So this is just, [00:46:35] you know, we’ve probably all had businesses where at times there’s been, there’s been a cash flow [00:46:40] issue. Yeah. Um, the emotional load looks like waking up at 3:00 in the [00:46:45] morning and knowing that you haven’t got as much cash in the business as you need. The emotional load is [00:46:50] you’re on holiday and you’d like to switch off and have a break and you can’t. So emotional [00:46:55] load, it’s just it’s just like a sandbag. It just sits on your shoulders and it’s there all the time. [00:47:00] The next thing is lifestyle misalignment and, and as a business owner, and this affects [00:47:05] dental practice owners, but it’s a business owner thing. Lifestyle misalignment means you are going to miss personal [00:47:10] things. You’re going to miss a mate’s wedding.

Andy Acton: You’re going to you might not get home in time for the birthday [00:47:15] party. Um, there’s going to be social events that you’re not going to get to. And [00:47:20] likewise, there’s going to be very important business things that you really feel you should be at, but [00:47:25] you can’t be at the other side. So this lifestyle misalignment is this pull from both sides [00:47:30] where you have a personal life and you have a business life, and trying to match those [00:47:35] two off isn’t isn’t always easy. You then have the third area’s decision, [00:47:40] fatigue and decision fatigue is you asked a hundred questions every single [00:47:45] day. And some of this is due to lack of processes and systems being in place, [00:47:50] but it can be wearing where you’re just asked question after question. And sometimes you give a bad answer [00:47:55] because you’re just exhausted and you didn’t really give it the thought that it needed. [00:48:00] You’ve then got role creep, which is the fourth area where many people think, I’m going to buy a dental practice. [00:48:05] It’s going to be brilliant. I’m going to be a dentist and I’m going to be the CEO. Amazing. That’ll be [00:48:10] my life. That’ll that will look good. So put that in the bin. The reality is you’re dealing with [00:48:15] HR, I.T., marketing, sales, quality control, your CEO, [00:48:20] your dentist.

Andy Acton: And then outside of that, you’ve then got going back to the lifestyle misalignment, you’ve got [00:48:25] a world outside of dental practice ownership. So what you’re doing is many things. [00:48:30] And remember, the one you’re qualified is being a dentist. All the others, you [00:48:35] don’t really know what you’re doing. You’re kind of learning as you go. Um, [00:48:40] and some of them, um, you know, if you did a marketing campaign, it didn’t work particularly well. Okay. [00:48:45] The impact it’s going to cost you some money and you’ll recover from it. But if it’s an HR issue [00:48:50] and you don’t manage it particularly well, potentially there’s a tribunal coming down the road towards you. [00:48:55] So that creates a stress as well. And then the last part of this of these categories, [00:49:00] exit readiness. And this isn’t about pushing people into a corner to say [00:49:05] you need to sell, but it’s about having a plan around what selling looks like. And [00:49:10] I say to lots of people, being prepared to sell and selling are two completely different things. They’re [00:49:15] not connected, but you do need a plan of what your exit looks like, because if you don’t have a plan [00:49:20] that creates a stress because you wake up in the morning, you’re like, when does this stop? When, [00:49:25] how do I get out of this? I feel like I’m on this treadmill.

Payman Langroudi: No light at the end of a tunnel sort [00:49:30] of thing.

Andy Acton: I’m on a treadmill and I’ll just keep doing my thing and and when does it come out? And those [00:49:35] five different areas affect different people in different ways. There’s no rule book that says [00:49:40] you go from one step to the next to the next. But I’ve noticed that from speaking to people and articulating [00:49:45] that quite often there’ll be nods and people go, no, you’re right. You know, I have [00:49:50] got this misalignment or I do feel at the end of the day, I’m absolutely [00:49:55] exhausted and I don’t know where to go or how to recuperate. And then it starts [00:50:00] the next day. And I do feel that I’m kind of on my knees trying to fix tech, [00:50:05] and I don’t really know what I’m doing. It’s that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, as a professional [00:50:10] business, you’re more at risk of this quandary [00:50:15] than me or you. Insomuch as you know, we can we [00:50:20] can fool ourselves. I can fool myself with I’m going to bring out a toothpaste next year and I’m going to [00:50:25] take over the world, you know. And even if that doesn’t happen, the [00:50:30] hope that I could do that. And, you know, there is this light, there’s some sort of a spark [00:50:35] that that could happen. Whereas when you’re in a professional business and dentistry, it’s a sort of a building [00:50:40] based business. If aside from the, you know, multiple practices, you’re in [00:50:45] this building. And so you can’t imagine that anything’s going to change radically [00:50:50] in this building, especially if you’re not, you know, mind, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, [00:50:55] you’re tired and frustrated. You’re, you’re not going to make some massive change, start some [00:51:00] massive marketing campaign.

Andy Acton: I think their world is quite small. Yeah. They go to [00:51:05] the same building every day. They then go to a room in that building. They spend.

Payman Langroudi: Same [00:51:10] person.

Andy Acton: Same, spend several hours with one person. Probably their nurse in that [00:51:15] they have a rotation of patients. If things go really well, they’ll get a lunch hour. If they don’t, it will [00:51:20] be a lunch break. They then at the end of the day, have to deal with all the business issues that have [00:51:25] come up during that day and get those dealt with and answered. They then go home [00:51:30] with depleted energy levels and want to show up at home because that’s why [00:51:35] they’re doing all this. They want to create a great environment and life at home, and [00:51:40] then they do the next thing again, and they don’t see how they’re doing compared to anybody else. Because [00:51:45] I spoke to you before. Oh it’s terrible. It’s really hard on this. And I look at the numbers [00:51:50] like, are you any idea how well you’re doing? You are doing. You know, I see people [00:51:55] sometimes. So the average gross for a dentist countrywide is around about [00:52:00] 250 to £300,000, something in that order. And I see people [00:52:05] who are grossing 7 or £800,000 and moaning that they’re not doing very well.

Payman Langroudi: Right? [00:52:10]

Andy Acton: Yeah, yeah. Just them in their surgery. And you you’ve no clue, have you. How, [00:52:15] how phenomenally well you’re doing. And as a profession it’s not good at [00:52:20] sharing experience. People tend to be quite it’s quite a British thing. People are quite guarded [00:52:25] about not wanting to share. They’ll share the soft stuff, they’ll share the easy things. But when it comes down to the [00:52:30] nitty gritty of how they’re doing, and we’re very fortunate because we obviously get a lot of financial data [00:52:35] that comes in and we can anonymize that and average it so we can share numbers with people. Just to let them know [00:52:40] how they’re doing. And quite often that can, that can be a weight off their shoulders because they [00:52:45] go, oh, actually, you know, I thought I was working and I was working and with no results, but I go, [00:52:50] oh, oh, actually, I’m not doing too bad. And suddenly they, they sit up a bit straighter. [00:52:55] They feel better because we’re not we’re not sharing how people are doing. And that that’s kind [00:53:00] of partly why we sort of created the principals club to put people into a community where they can speak [00:53:05] to other practice owners openly and honestly about where they’re at and what’s going on.

Payman Langroudi: Like group therapy [00:53:10] sort of thing. Kind of. Yeah. It’s interesting when you went through that list, every one of the ones you said [00:53:15] sort of resonated with me at one point in my career. So [00:53:20] do you think that sometimes, you know, I mean, I’ve certainly been in a situation [00:53:25] where for one period of time I felt like I was having. Let’s pick one [00:53:30] of them. Decision fatigue. You know, maybe I was stressed, but I felt like I got out of [00:53:35] it. So that question of, is it something that’s like a terminal? Is it something that just gets [00:53:40] worse and worse and worse and worse until they get to a point of, of being completely worn out at [00:53:45] your wit’s end? Or have you seen it turn around as well? I guess that’s what the principal does, [00:53:50] right?

Andy Acton: And, and I think with owner fatigue, I think it depends on how long you’ve [00:53:55] been suffering and how many categories are affecting you. So I think if you were [00:54:00] suffering just with decision fatigue and it’s for a few months and you said, I cannot go on like [00:54:05] this, and you turn it around, which either means in most cases that would mean [00:54:10] you put something in place to make sure that people don’t have to keep coming to you for answers [00:54:15] to the same questions. So you either have, um, some, um, standard operating procedures [00:54:20] that they can go to and go, right. I don’t need to ask Payman. Right. I do that yet. Got it. And then suddenly it’s almost [00:54:25] like exceptional reporting. People are only coming to you for the really weird things that haven’t cropped up before so [00:54:30] it can be managed. So any of these categories can be managed individually or collectively. [00:54:35] But it does come down to how many of them are affecting you, and how long has it been, [00:54:40] because there does come a point where it’s like the work required to unravel it and get back [00:54:45] to a state where you really enjoy it may or may not be something you want to do, particularly [00:54:50] depending on how long you’ve owned the practice for. So if you owned a practice for 1012 years and there [00:54:55] could be a year or two’s work to get to a point where it felt like it did when you owned it for 4 or 5 years, [00:55:00] many people just aren’t prepared to put in the hard yards to get back to [00:55:05] where they want to be. And in that case, we look at the numbers because it [00:55:10] might be the right thing to do is to sell, because what you don’t want to do is if you’re being affected [00:55:15] and it becomes acute, that will start to represent itself through the numbers. And [00:55:20] if your numbers start to decline, your value declines and are.

Payman Langroudi: A multiple [00:55:25] of that. Right?

Andy Acton: Exactly. I want everyone to exit at the peak. I [00:55:30] want people to go and buy peak. I mean, they’re still enjoying it. Their value [00:55:35] is up. They’ve got their health and there’s a life beyond ownership. I want everyone to [00:55:40] exit on those terms. I don’t want people to exit when they’re thoroughly fed up. I can see it in [00:55:45] the financials. And the fatigue has started to affect their personal health because they’ve [00:55:50] left it too.

Payman Langroudi: When we talk about the length of the cycle between meeting you [00:55:55] and the practice being sold, sometimes being up to three, four, five years, even then [00:56:00] it’s important to be able to say, look, I may be at the end of my tether in five years [00:56:05] time. Now’s a good time to get myself sales ready. So what does sales readiness look like? What [00:56:10] are the checkpoints that, you know, apart from the obvious, you know, go through the [00:56:15] obvious. So you go through the obvious. So, so.

Andy Acton: Silly things like your financial accounts need to be up [00:56:20] to date. Yes. So you have nine months to file your financial accounts from your [00:56:25] year end. Yeah. The buyer is going to need to present those accounts to the bank. Yes. So you [00:56:30] need to make sure your accounts are up to date. And the files you need to speak to your accountant and say, I’m getting myself ready. [00:56:35] We need to make sure we’re filing a little bit earlier each year [00:56:40] so that we can present those, those figures. You need to make sure that your your underlying profitability [00:56:45] and costs look good. And by that I don’t mean the year before [00:56:50] you sell. You completely drop all your marketing activity. You get an artificially inflated [00:56:55] number because that’s, that’s not going to fly. Likewise, if you just kind of deliver [00:57:00] an extraordinary amount of dentistry in the year before you sell, that’s going to be spotted. So let’s say your turnover [00:57:05] was 808, 50, 900, 1.3 million. But [00:57:10] what’s going on in that year? You know, that looks like you’ve just worked really hard to elevate [00:57:15] your profit to get to get a good exit value. There’s probably nothing left by way of dentistry to do on that [00:57:20] patient base for the incoming owner. So be smart about how you do it and run that in [00:57:25] a decent amount of time.

Payman Langroudi: And on the on the buyer side, who’s looking out for that stuff, the bank.

Andy Acton: Yeah. [00:57:30] So buyers are reasonably sophisticated. Oh yeah. They’re getting better [00:57:35] at looking at that. The bank and their broker is going to look at that on their behalf as well. Um, [00:57:40] some work with accountants, but most it’s generally through through the bank and the broker [00:57:45] side of things.

Payman Langroudi: And what else, what else on the checklist that your, your contracts with your associates, [00:57:50] your staff, the NHS and building owner.

Andy Acton: Yeah. Do those earlier than, [00:57:55] than you need because when, when you start to sell, um, we [00:58:00] spot very subtle changes in people’s behaviour. I know you fairly well. You’re [00:58:05] in a relaxed mood today. Kind of says you had a good weekend. If you weren’t, I sense [00:58:10] an anxiety from you in terms of how you are. Yeah. Teams will work with their principal for many [00:58:15] years. They spot it. So when they go into a sale process, um. Oh no, you all go, I’m just going to [00:58:20] stay back and do some work tonight. She never does that. What’s she staying back [00:58:25] for? So these slight adjustments in behaviour, people spot the reason [00:58:30] that the principal’s staying back was to get some paperwork together. Whereas if you did that over three, four, six [00:58:35] months, a little bit here, a little bit there, that’s much better. But to your point about contacts. Absolutely. By [00:58:40] law, you need employment contracts with everybody in the business anyway. So make [00:58:45] sure you’ve got those in place and make sure they’re updated. Employment law changes at a [00:58:50] rapid rate. So to make sure those are up to date, make sure you have, um, self-employed [00:58:55] contracts in place with your associates, therapists and hygienists, all the other [00:59:00] service contracts you have in place. If you’ve got things in place for your, your suction motor, your compressor, any [00:59:05] digital tech. Make sure those are in place.

Andy Acton: Look at any long term [00:59:10] contracts that you have as well. So if you have, um, a long term contract, say [00:59:15] your telephone company, so you had a contract in place with them and, and you signed [00:59:20] into a five year contract, and that was three years ago. If you’re looking to sell in three years time, [00:59:25] you probably don’t want to sign a new five year contract at the end of that one, because then someone’s [00:59:30] going to be taken over a four year contract that they might not want to do, and you might have to buy yourself out of it. [00:59:35] So like, try and have a line of sight beyond where you are on the, on [00:59:40] the property side of things. If it’s a freehold, you know where the deeds are, find the deeds. If it’s [00:59:45] a leasehold. Do you have your, your, your lease? Look at your lease and think about the remaining term [00:59:50] of your lease. So a bank will lend you the money as a buyer [00:59:55] over the remaining terms of the years on the lease. So what that looks like in reality [01:00:00] is I own the practice and I signed a 15 year lease and I signed [01:00:05] that lease seven years ago. So you as the buyer now have eight years [01:00:10] remaining on the lease. So what that means is the bank, who’s going to lend you the money to buy the practice will [01:00:15] most likely only lend you the money over eight years.

Andy Acton: So what that’s going to do is that’s going to compress [01:00:20] the ability for you to borrow money, because it’s going to have to be repaid over a short period of time. [01:00:25] However, if I had a 15 year lease, I’m seven years through the years. There’s [01:00:30] eight years to go and I want to sell. Next year, I might be able to go to my landlord now and say, I’m [01:00:35] just looking and thinking about making some investment in my practice and expanding it. But to do that, [01:00:40] I’m going to need to borrow some money and I’m going to go to the bank to borrow some money. But what the bank are going to really be looking [01:00:45] for would be a 15 year lease. Would you be against extending my lease out now out [01:00:50] to 15 years? Because that would really help me. Landlords are probably going to be like, yeah, sure, no problem at all. Because [01:00:55] a dental practice as a covenant is a really low risk tenant. So why wouldn’t you do that? [01:01:00] But what I’ve now got is I’ve now got a 15 year lease. So when I sell my practice next year, I’ve got 14 [01:01:05] years to run. You can borrow the money over 14 years. Your repayment is now stretched [01:01:10] over 14 years. It looks much better.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s interesting.

Andy Acton: To do these things. [01:01:15] You need to have a longer line of sight than ring me and say I want to sell. So there’s, there’s and [01:01:20] you know, find your NHS contract. Um, if there’s any, any amendments [01:01:25] to it. Have you got the amendment documentation, the amount of people who literally cannot find [01:01:30] the documentation relating to NHS contract, which I get because you know, we laugh about the new NHS [01:01:35] contract but but it was coming up for 20 years ago. So people just don’t know where this documentation [01:01:40] is. If you can start to line all that up. You’re going to be well ahead.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:01:45] said you don’t. People don’t like to see huge cliffs drop offs in cost. But [01:01:50] do you do you say would you say to kind of taper down your costs over [01:01:55] a period of years so that you know, your cost base looks lower and your, your if [01:02:00] it looks higher?

Andy Acton: Yeah, if you can. And there’s no material impact on your business. So [01:02:05] if you’ve been heavily investing in digital marketing campaigns, say, and you’ve [01:02:10] just been paying them, it’s just been recurring and you’ve not really monitored the success [01:02:15] of those. And they’re not performing. Sure. Why wouldn’t you? You know, drop drop out some meta [01:02:20] ads or if the SEO has been working in the background, but you’re not sure it’s having an effect, it would make [01:02:25] sense to, to wind those down. But I always take the view that in business, you [01:02:30] can only ever trim your costs so much to improve profit before it [01:02:35] shows up somewhere. And by that I mean the quality of what you deliver, the quality of [01:02:40] the team who work in the business. I would much favour growth on the top end, so go for more [01:02:45] income and then the costs. They don’t take care of themselves, but you, you’ll be less bothered [01:02:50] about them. But there could be things in their materials, you know, do you have a [01:02:55] a policy for managing materials? Do you rotate stock? Is somebody targeted to [01:03:00] buy materials? Are you looking for discounts? There’s now people out there that will help [01:03:05] you with procurement to get discounts. Are you looking at those things? Um, one thing that sometimes [01:03:10] people do, which is, um, it’s well-intentioned, but it’s foolish [01:03:15] is they give everybody a nice pay rise before they sell. So they say, my team are very loyal. [01:03:20] They’ve been with me for many years. So I’m going to give everybody a ten a 10% [01:03:25] pay rise. So let’s say that the salary costs are £300,000. What you’ve done [01:03:30] is you’ve then increased that to £330,000. That £30,000 increase [01:03:35] if.

Payman Langroudi: Seven x.

Andy Acton: If you’ve got A7X on that, you just wipe 200 grand off the [01:03:40] value of your business. So whilst it’s when in tension.

Payman Langroudi: So what should I do? I should sell the business [01:03:45] and then pay them.

Andy Acton: Pay them a bonus.

Payman Langroudi: A bonus.

Andy Acton: Paid. So don’t, don’t [01:03:50] play with the salaries. Leave. Leave them as they are. If the owner wants to do something completely up to them. [01:03:55] But your underlying profit hasn’t been impacted. If when you sell from your sale proceeds, [01:04:00] if you’d like to say thank you to your team and make a payment to them entirely up to you, they still [01:04:05] benefit financially.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the tax implications?

Andy Acton: Oh, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andy Acton: Yeah for sure. [01:04:10] And that’s the other thing. You should seek Um, financial advice, either from a financial advisor or [01:04:15] your accountant before you go into the process. Because as a business owner, there’s certain relief that [01:04:20] you get the benefit from. So things like making pension contributions. If you’ve worked in the NHS [01:04:25] a lot, you’ve probably got quite a nice NHS pension and you might not need to add [01:04:30] anything to it. But if you’ve worked primarily in the private sector, quite often people haven’t [01:04:35] made a great pension contribution. But as a business owner you can make company [01:04:40] pension contributions and lots of people now operate as through limited companies. So if [01:04:45] you’ve got some spare cash and profit in your business, why wouldn’t you use that to enhance your [01:04:50] pension pot prior to selling? Because once you’ve sold and you no longer own a business, that that ability is gone. [01:04:55] But again, it’s a bit like looking at those those long term contracts [01:05:00] you’ve got in place. If you do that now, you can make those contributions [01:05:05] and then you can sell your business. And all this comes back to, I would love to speak to people [01:05:10] 3 to 5 years before they sell because it’s going to take them a year to sell. So that’s four years. [01:05:15] It gives me a couple of years to have a look at what they’re doing and get them prepared. In terms of, [01:05:20] is your documentation in place? Can we improve your financial performance? And then we go into the process [01:05:25] that that would be perfect.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I want to point two things out to you. Yeah. Number one, the [01:05:30] general knowledge around business of the population, [01:05:35] the population, not not just dentists. Yeah. And [01:05:40] where should these lessons be taught? You know, because some people say, oh, look at dental [01:05:45] school. There should be a section that says business principles. Yeah. But for [01:05:50] me, what I’ve really become really clear on now is that it should be taught at school. [01:05:55] And I, and the reason I say that is, you know, when you watch your kids watch [01:06:00] my son go through A-level, further maths. Yeah, it’s very [01:06:05] complicated subject, very complicated. Any A-level is It’s very complicated. [01:06:10] Yeah. And yet the question of how do I get a mortgage? How do I [01:06:15] get a loan? Fixed costs, um, non-fixed costs. And much of [01:06:20] the stuff you’ve just gone through right now never gets taught at all. [01:06:25]

Andy Acton: No.

Payman Langroudi: To any to any part of the population. And then were you, as a finance professional, [01:06:30] find all this stuff quite obvious? It rolls off your tongue. Now, on the other side of it, [01:06:35] the second thing I want to point out to you is when you are a dentist, it’s amazing how [01:06:40] literally you’ve got half an hour in a day, like, look, me and you, we [01:06:45] both have businesses, you know, thank goodness I’m I’m not a dentist anymore, but [01:06:50] but the something comes up. Let’s say there’s a recruitment question. [01:06:55] Your, your right hand, uh, lady is moving to Dubai. Now you need to find someone [01:07:00] new. Um, something regulatory comes up with the financial services Authority. In [01:07:05] my world, I’ve got loads of regulatory issues. Something comes up. Yeah, I [01:07:10] could dedicate the whole of today, tomorrow and the day after to fixing that problem. If I want to. Yeah, a dentist [01:07:15] can’t. Nope. Dentists can’t. It’s 9 a.m., 8:38 a.m.. Patient. Yeah. [01:07:20] And zero breaks until the end of that day. And so, you [01:07:25] know, the don’t work six days a week as a dentist [01:07:30] and have at least one day. You know, like admin time. [01:07:35] And in that one day, educate yourself, right?

Andy Acton: Oh for sure. I mean, to your to your [01:07:40] first point, I, I completely, 100% agree. I think the fact that [01:07:45] we don’t teach young people anything about, um, money and [01:07:50] business type things at school is a travesty. I think now, um, [01:07:55] the world’s changing where most people are going to have 3 or 4 different careers. [01:08:00] Lots of people have, um, work they do on the side, you know, whether [01:08:05] it’s, uh, an Etsy tick tock type thing, but they have things in that capacity. [01:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: For a property business.

Andy Acton: Exactly. So I think the fact that people just don’t understand how the [01:08:15] world works at a very basic level, you know, um, [01:08:20] stupid things like tax. Yeah. Um, silly things like, [01:08:25] um, the different ways that you can own a business. It’s very, very basic [01:08:30] stuff, but just giving people an understanding. I think it should be um a school, [01:08:35] school, school level school.

Payman Langroudi: They go into depth in school in lots of ways. Yeah. So, [01:08:40] so there is, there’s some scope for.

Andy Acton: And even if it started as an after school [01:08:45] club. Yeah. I think there would be, um, a thirst for it. I think people would like to know that. I [01:08:50] think it then gets um, worse for dentists because [01:08:55] if you’re at school, you’re needing to choose the right GCSEs to [01:09:00] do the right A-levels, to get the right points to go to the right dental school. So you’ve decided [01:09:05] this when you were probably 13, 14, 15 years old. So you’re [01:09:10] now getting quite narrow in where you’re going. And then you go into dental school and you’re [01:09:15] now purely just dealing with with teeth. And then you come out of dental school. [01:09:20] And then what happens is you immediately become a high earner.

Payman Langroudi: So you reliant [01:09:25] on that.

Andy Acton: Then you’ve had blinkers put on and you’ve really focussed on this [01:09:30] one specific thing that then pays you really well. But nobody ever said you’re [01:09:35] going to have to pay some tax at some point. The amount of young dentists I see who go, oh, [01:09:40] who’s this brown envelope from? No, seriously, I kid you not, they did not [01:09:45] know they had to pay tax. And because of the nature of how it falls, the tax [01:09:50] falls after the event. And quite often they might have been earning for a year, 18 months, two years before it [01:09:55] actually truly catches up. And then they get a tax bill for several thousand pounds. And [01:10:00] life being what it is. Um, the majority of people spend about 97% of what they earn. [01:10:05] So there’s no money, there’s no money left over. So now you’re on the back foot and [01:10:10] people don’t have savings. You know, Lloyds Bank did a survey several years ago. Now I think nationally [01:10:15] the national average savings in the UK I think was £1,500. People [01:10:20] do not hold on to cash. They spend it from an economy point of view is good. We want it put back in the economy. [01:10:25] But for young people that don’t understand this, that’s a real a real problem. So [01:10:30] it should absolutely be taught at Dental school stage. And for [01:10:35] dentists it gets worse. But to your secondary point about running a business, this [01:10:40] creates a stress in itself. And I always say if someone’s going to be owning and running a business quite [01:10:45] often in the early days, it’s hard for them to do anything less than four clinical days [01:10:50] because.

Payman Langroudi: That’s just the reality.

Andy Acton: It’s just the reality. They’ve kind of they’ve got to pay the bank loan. [01:10:55] They’ve got to cover costs. They want to maintain a lifestyle. So they have. But the sooner they can get down [01:11:00] to something like 3 or 3 and a half days to better. Because you know what you put into running [01:11:05] your ventures, you know, it’s not a day and a half, two day a week job. But [01:11:10] what we’re kind of saying to a dentist is if they’re working for clinical days a week, and let’s say [01:11:15] they could just do it in a day and a half, that means that’s five and a half days. So they’re going to get Saturday [01:11:20] afternoon and Sunday off. That’s it. And that’s for everything. That’s for [01:11:25] anything that came up in their life personal, improving the business because [01:11:30] the day and a half is just running the business. It’s not growing the business. And and that that doesn’t make any sense. That [01:11:35] doesn’t work. Um, so yeah, you, you need a system that enables you [01:11:40] to only be locked away in your surgery for ideally three, three and a half days [01:11:45] to allow you time. And it’s having the confidence of if I invest time on my business [01:11:50] and I’m not going to surgery, can I add value to my business beyond my hourly [01:11:55] rate as a dentist? And in the early days, the answer to that might might not be yes.

Andy Acton: And [01:12:00] for people who are thinking about buying a dental practice in the future, I’d say [01:12:05] start investing in your skills now. Start going on communications courses, interpersonal [01:12:10] skills. Start understanding strategic marketing, advertising, how to manage people. [01:12:15] Because if you can start to get those in your kitbag now, suddenly you’ve got you’ve got [01:12:20] a skill stack. So then when you step out of the surgery, you’ve got a framework to how to manage [01:12:25] other people. Because ideally, when you’re out of surgery, you’ve got to say a team of 12 [01:12:30] people. Let’s imagine if you could, by working with those people, you could improve all of those [01:12:35] people by 10%. Yeah, that’s going to be greater than you would have achieved in the surgery. But you need [01:12:40] to have the confidence to step out of the surgery to do that, because then the whole business elevates [01:12:45] and also the business elevates. It’s not like you’re doing more per hour [01:12:50] in your surgery because in the short term, that’s great, but you need a business because [01:12:55] otherwise all you’ve done is you’ve just got another job. You were an associate, and now you’ve got another job [01:13:00] in a surgery, in a practice you own. That’s not it’s not really a business, is it?

Payman Langroudi: How about if I’m buying [01:13:05] a practice and I don’t understand how to read a financial report or profit and loss and all that? [01:13:10] Have you got guys who can translate those for dentists or. Yeah. So I [01:13:15] don’t need to go as as a buyer. I don’t need to go and learn that aspect.

Andy Acton: So [01:13:20] there’s a few things you can do. So we, we actually run a thing called a buyer’s masterclass, which is a one day course [01:13:25] where we go through things like that. We talk them through like step by step. A profit and loss statement [01:13:30] is a page of numbers. And if you’ve never seen one, it’s a bit overwhelming. It’s like most things in life, once [01:13:35] it gets broken down, it’s not that complicated. Like it literally is as simple as [01:13:40] there’s a big number at the top.

Payman Langroudi: The brackets mean a loss. Yeah.

Andy Acton: But the big number at the top [01:13:45] is income. Yeah. You’ve then got a big list and they’ve already expenses. Yeah. And you total [01:13:50] those up and take them away from the big number which is income. And that’s the bit that’s left over. And [01:13:55] if the bit left over is a blank number. You’ve made money. If it’s a red number or it’s in brackets, [01:14:00] you’ve lost money. It really is as simple as that. It gets way more detailed in terms of [01:14:05] the analysis of those numbers. But going back to your point about nobody [01:14:10] ever tells young people this, it’s completely reasonable and acceptable that they don’t [01:14:15] understand it. And I think sometimes you kind of get to a certain stage in life as an adult where you’re [01:14:20] expected to know certain things. So quite often dentists who are buying practices, [01:14:25] they ask questions because they think they should be asking those sorts of questions, but [01:14:30] they don’t really understand the structure of financial accounts. So we explain that, and [01:14:35] a good finance broker and the bank will also help you understand it as well. And it’s not it’s [01:14:40] not just understanding it. So you can buy a business. Once you’ve bought a business, you [01:14:45] really need to know what’s going on. You know, there’s a thing with the management called grip. Grip [01:14:50] is knowing those numbers in your business. So I bet you know there’s certain metrics [01:14:55] in your business that you know. Yeah. You know. You know who your top few customers are, you know, [01:15:00] roughly what they spend, you know, roughly what stock you’ve got, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, roughly understand what’s going on.

Andy Acton: Yeah, [01:15:05] exactly. And a Dental business owner, they need to know that as well. Um, but [01:15:10] you you don’t know where to start if you don’t understand the numbers and [01:15:15] which are the ones that are really critical that you’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a problem about too many KPIs, right? And [01:15:20] one’s sometimes you get a KPI that you even can’t do anything about or don’t do anything about. What [01:15:25] would you say if I say the three key KPIs to keep looking at in the business?

Andy Acton: So [01:15:30] I think it depends what sort of practice you are. Yeah. Um, but for me, I think [01:15:35] new patients is really important.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Important to the health of the business. [01:15:40]

Andy Acton: Exactly. You need a flow of new business coming in. I think you need to [01:15:45] understand your your recall system, because if you’ve got loads of new patients and [01:15:50] they’re not coming back, you’ve got a hole in your bucket. So I think you need to understand your your recoil system and what [01:15:55] what that looks like. And I think the third one is sickness.

Payman Langroudi: Sickness?

Andy Acton: Yeah. [01:16:00]

Payman Langroudi: What do.

Andy Acton: You mean? I think if you’ve got a high rate of sickness, there’s something wrong in the business.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:16:05] personal.

Andy Acton: Yeah. As in. As in your team.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Andy Acton: I think your team. I think you look at the [01:16:10] sickness level of your team.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s interesting.

Andy Acton: Because I think.

Payman Langroudi: People are trying to stay away from the practice.

Andy Acton: I think [01:16:15] that’s a really good indicator of how people feel about coming to work.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. [01:16:20] I was expecting you to say that.

Andy Acton: Yeah, that’s a general business thing. Yeah. But I think you also need. [01:16:25] So if you were a, um, a very heavy, uh, clear [01:16:30] aligner type practice. Yeah, your metrics might be different. Yeah. Yeah, [01:16:35] exactly. So I think, I think, and as a rule, I’m not a massive [01:16:40] fan of KPIs. When you see these reports that go on for pages and pages. No one is reading it. [01:16:45] Not even the person that produced it is reading it. So no one is reading it. So if you can distil [01:16:50] your business down to 2 or 3 things. So in my finance one. [01:16:55]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so.

Andy Acton: I was going to say. So in my finance business, the finance arranges finance for dentists. [01:17:00] We arrange about £200 million a year. We measure one thing the [01:17:05] number of deals we send to a bank in a given month.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:17:10] know from that number how the health of the business is.

Andy Acton: I know from that. I know what [01:17:15] the approval rate of the banks are. I know what the average deal size is. I know how many trees [01:17:20] we had to shake to get that number. And we’ve worked out that’s the one thing we measure. [01:17:25] And as long as that number is within a band, everything fixes itself.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. [01:17:30]

Andy Acton: We’ve got one metric and genuinely, I think there’s a it bothers me a little bit that we’re moving into a realm, [01:17:35] particularly with some of the, um, the financial dashboards that are available. And I’ve spoken [01:17:40] to some of the guys creating them about it. I said, we need to be really careful that we just don’t produce [01:17:45] loads of data and loads of reports and put it in front of the client because they will not read it. [01:17:50] We need to really drill in and find out what are the couple of things they really [01:17:55] need to know. And if that number goes up or down, the impact it has on their business, and [01:18:00] that’s where I think we need to get to. But there’s a danger because it’s becoming easier and easier to access data. [01:18:05] We’re going to drown people in data, but no one’s reading it.

Payman Langroudi: You mentioned Randeep. I think [01:18:10] AI is going to make a difference there you know. Yes. Ai another two three years and [01:18:15] you’ll literally be able to ask it questions about that profit and loss statement. Like good [01:18:20] questions. You know I want to finish it with kind of a quick fire round. [01:18:25] Um, what’s your favourite business book?

Andy Acton: It’s [01:18:30] not an obvious one. Um, it’s, it is business, but it’s [01:18:35] more about life. It’s called greenlights by Matthew McConaughey.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Okay.

Andy Acton: And [01:18:40] it’s more, um, philosophy, but the overarching principle [01:18:45] and why it’s called green lights is it’s, um, it’s almost kind of a diary of his life, but he talks [01:18:50] about things that happen in his life. Um, some good, some bad. But the point about [01:18:55] it is, is if something goes wrong, it still might be a green light. And I [01:19:00] think in life and in business, quite often, we’re very quick to draw conclusions on whether things go well [01:19:05] or not because something didn’t go well in that moment. It, it still might [01:19:10] be a green light because it might lead you on to something else. And it’s really helped me because [01:19:15] in business, you know, it’s very easy to talk about your successes, but we have failures as well. But quite often [01:19:20] it’s the failures that you really dwell on and you think about and you say, well, why didn’t that work? [01:19:25] How could we do it again? And it was a really good book in helping you reframe that [01:19:30] whilst you think it was bad news. It might not be because [01:19:35] it might lead you onto onto something else, which is.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an example in your own business like that where [01:19:40] that’s.

Andy Acton: Yeah. I mean, in the early days, um, we came up with a service [01:19:45] for dental practice owners, which was kind of a very early [01:19:50] days buying group. And we negotiated with lots of suppliers [01:19:55] and we said, you know, will you provide a discount? And they said, yes, we will. We’ll provide a discount and we’ll provide you with [01:20:00] with, you know, 10% on this and 15% on that. It’s brilliant. So we had this, this service we produced and [01:20:05] we went out to people and, and we offered them discounts. And then we realised that quite early on that, um, [01:20:10] because we did some mystery shop coding, we called some of the suppliers and we said, what’s the best deal you can do? [01:20:15] And they were offering direct better discounts than they’d given us and told us it was [01:20:20] an exclusive. We’re like, right, okay. So, so in that moment, all the work that had gone into designing [01:20:25] this and it was time and cost and everything else, um, was a complete waste of time [01:20:30] because we were being screwed over by them offering better, better deals directly. So that [01:20:35] was, was, was kind of a red light because it stopped and it died. However, as a result [01:20:40] of what we’re doing many years later, the deals we strike with people that we have partnerships [01:20:45] with look way different than they would have before. If we hadn’t have gone through that process, [01:20:50] we would have known that what goes on in the back end, which is [01:20:55] quite useful. So and that was a that was a 20 year old, that was a 20 year old lesson. And back then [01:21:00] it was something that really hurt because we put a lot, a lot of work into it. Yet now [01:21:05] building the principals club, it’s being built very differently because we now know that we want things from [01:21:10] people that genuinely are of value and genuinely can’t be found somewhere else.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you [01:21:15] say is the big business influence for you? It’s [01:21:20] someone you admire. In business.

Andy Acton: I admire a lot. [01:21:25] Walt Disney.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Andy Acton: Walt Disney.

Payman Langroudi: Experience. Experiential.

Andy Acton: Yeah [01:21:30] it is. And I think it’s easy to see, um, the things that he’s done now [01:21:35] through kind of 20, 25 eyes, but he was kind of doing [01:21:40] this stuff back in the 60s. Yeah. And I just think that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an incredible point, that one.

Andy Acton: Yeah. And [01:21:45] it’s easy when you see things today and you’re like, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. But his [01:21:50] whole concept of trying to create an experience and an event [01:21:55] and it being structured in a way which meant it was so accessible, [01:22:00] was, was a powerful thing. And he would go all [01:22:05] in on everything. Like the, the guy literally was on the verge of going bust for most of his life, [01:22:10] right? Oh, he was there was no, there was never a plan B, he went in and everything, but [01:22:15] I just his whole concept when he opened his theme parks. Is this like one price [01:22:20] you go in, you access it all because prior to that, the, the, [01:22:25] the amusement experience was you turned up and you paid for [01:22:30] every individual ride. And he was saying for the average family, he didn’t like the fact that that was a really expensive [01:22:35] way and it was limiting. And he said, why can’t we have a system where you kind of pay [01:22:40] and everybody gets access to it so that as a as a principal, I love the idea of how do you make [01:22:45] things more available to to other people. But he was a real pioneer.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the incredible [01:22:50] IP as well, right? Yeah. When you think about how old is it? When was [01:22:55] it 40s. 30. When was it?

Andy Acton: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck came out. Yeah yeah yeah. And then if [01:23:00] today you said to me, I’ve managed to do a brand deal collab with Disney [01:23:05] for sticking Mickey Mouse on a Dental mirror or something. I’d be like, wow. And we’re [01:23:10] like 60 years old, 80 years on from that initial cartoon. Yeah, the [01:23:15] IP is amazing.

Andy Acton: Oh, and they, they have a thing where for, for new people that [01:23:20] join the Disney company. I don’t know if they still do it, but they had a thing where for the first five days, [01:23:25] you basically went on a course and it was called traditions. And they just talked about, [01:23:30] you know, the family, the heritage, the how they do things, the way they do things. But [01:23:35] the business is still, it’s still a massive business and it’s still rolling based on, [01:23:40] those early foundations. And that kind of goes back to that kind of culture that it can [01:23:45] transcend generations. But you need.

Payman Langroudi: Company. Yeah, but good to great.

Andy Acton: Yeah. Yeah, [01:23:50] exactly. But you need to put it in, in, in the early days when, when people buy [01:23:55] an existing business. Don’t, don’t throw it in the bin like the [01:24:00] what’s already been created. There’s some really good stuff in there. And going back to that, that situation [01:24:05] where too much was changed too soon. It’s about trying to work out well, what are the really good things [01:24:10] and how do I build on the good things? You know, that that how do I get it from good to great? And [01:24:15] it should be a compounding effect of lots of good things happening.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:24:20] one of the things I took from good to great was that, you know, to even when you when [01:24:25] it hurts you to improve, you know, and, and so many [01:24:30] times that comes up with us, you know, like we’re trying to take the latest version of enlightened, trying [01:24:35] to take 80% of the plastic we’ve taken out of it. Right? And that was [01:24:40] so painful. I can’t tell you how painful that was. You know, because just to make a trade case. Yeah. [01:24:45] Out of aluminium. Yeah. When there’s thousands of plastic ones, you could just call, call [01:24:50] a guy in Italy and he’ll send you 10,000 with your logo on it. Now we’re making a brand [01:24:55] new thing. Yeah, but but that notion of sometimes progress is going to hurt. [01:25:00] Often it’s going to hurt. But but you know, to keep to do it to do it. Yeah. The [01:25:05] thing is.

Andy Acton: Quite often in those situations, it’s going to hurt in the short term. Yeah. But if you [01:25:10] don’t do it, the hurt in the long term.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly. That’s the reason. Yeah. [01:25:15] What about Dental Leaders who’ve inspired you? I mean, whether it’s dentists, whether [01:25:20] it’s the industry as a whole who stands out as people who’ve inspired you as [01:25:25] like sort of good stories, good people.

Andy Acton: I think there’s, there’s probably, [01:25:30] I mean, they’re sort of fallen into different categories. Uh, I think somebody [01:25:35] who always has an eye on trying to better the profession is Drew Sharp? [01:25:40] I think Dentinal tubules. I think the work he does there um at [01:25:45] times I think for him it feels like he’s pushing water uphill. I think he feels like he’s trying to do something that [01:25:50] not a lot of other people are trying to do. But I’ve been to their conferences. I’ve been fortunate [01:25:55] to sit in some of their kind of educational sessions. He brings a different a different [01:26:00] sort of energy. And it’s funny because one of the very first events I went to was down in Brighton. It’s one of the Congress, [01:26:05] and he’d invited me down and I kind of worked hard to kind of get to know people across dentistry. And I walked [01:26:10] into a room of 200 people, and I looked around and I thought, I don’t know anybody in this room. Like, [01:26:15] what are you what are you doing? Who are you drawing into this room that [01:26:20] is different from the sort of people that I meet on a week by week basis. And he [01:26:25] brought in people who, um, were very keen, um, [01:26:30] to develop themselves and develop clinically. And I think that’s a slightly different [01:26:35] set to what lots of other people are doing. So I think that that side of things I think is, is [01:26:40] quite incredible. Um, I think from the, the business side of things, [01:26:45] um, someone that I admire a lot and, and kind [01:26:50] of pushes and pushes hard and does it quite openly is love and [01:26:55] love again as well.

Payman Langroudi: And I like.

Andy Acton: Love. So he’s just opened his sunny hill practice and the, [01:27:00] the care and the attention and bringing people on the journey is, [01:27:05] is great. And also he’s got chairside running, running as well.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Andy Acton: He, he does [01:27:10] it, um, in quite a different way. He’s not your typical dentist [01:27:15] in terms of how he goes about it. Um, and I like that, I like the way [01:27:20] he does it. Um, and he shares what he’s doing genuinely [01:27:25] for the betterment of the profession. But from a business, from a business perspective.

Payman Langroudi: They call [01:27:30] it building public, right? Yeah. But what I love about him is the humility he has when he comes and asks the question. [01:27:35] And there’s a real humility in it. You know, in, in, in this industry, [01:27:40] you can get hubris. Yes. Yeah. And someone like him could [01:27:45] he could be sort of, you know, raised a few million pounds. Chairside. He’s yeah, known [01:27:50] quite well around, but the humility is like 100% humility. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. [01:27:55] You know, and then in that situation, you you want to share with him as well? Yeah.

Andy Acton: Yeah. And [01:28:00] that building public when you do it looking through the rear view mirror, it’s really cool. But [01:28:05] when you’re doing it in real time, you don’t know how it’s going to play out. Yeah. There was a, there was a program on [01:28:10] Netflix many years ago, um, about the football team. Sunderland and Sunderland were [01:28:15] in the Premiership and they got demoted to the championship and they did a fly on the wall documentary [01:28:20] called Sunderland Til I die. And what they thought they were going to be filming was their bounce back into [01:28:25] the Premiership. What they actually filmed was a further demotion from the Championship to [01:28:30] League One. So that whole thing about, you know, doing it in real time, I think they genuinely [01:28:35] thought it was going to be this, this amazing story of bouncing straight back up and actually went down [01:28:40] a further leg. The pain for the city of Sunderland, who are passionate bunch [01:28:45] of people was was unbearable. And whilst it made great viewing [01:28:50] you doing things like that in real time, there’s always risk attached to it. So I think whenever you you play [01:28:55] it out and you never quite know what the ending is going to be, it brings an edge that just makes it from [01:29:00] a viewers point of view, makes it makes it quite interesting. And my last person you Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Let me.

Andy Acton: Know [01:29:05] because no, seriously, you want to gloss over this because you’ll get embarrassed. But but but genuinely, [01:29:10] we used to do our podcast ontology and you’ve got your businesses, but [01:29:15] when you started Dental Leaders, you sat down with me and you were like, you should do this. You know, it would be [01:29:20] really good fun. There aren’t many people doing it, and it would have been easy for somebody who’d [01:29:25] kind of cornered that market and had a niche to have just carried on doing that. And not only [01:29:30] sure. You literally gave me the playbook on what to do, which was completely [01:29:35] unnecessary. But that that, that shows how you are in that we [01:29:40] can all do well. It’s that whole adage, isn’t it, that imagine if there was one star in the sky, how dark the sky [01:29:45] would be, the.

Payman Langroudi: Scarcity.

Andy Acton: The fact there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Billions.

Andy Acton: Of stars up there, the sky looks beautiful [01:29:50] and you are very generous.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t expect you to say that.

Andy Acton: No, no, but I know you’re trying to shut [01:29:55] me down and you’re trying to edit it out this episode, and you’re not allowed to, but genuinely you are. And there’s [01:30:00] you and I haven’t. There are lots of people who have that. [01:30:05] And it just shows that dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: This is a friendly community. It’s full of good people. [01:30:10] We’re very lucky in that sense.

Andy Acton: Yeah, it’s full of good people.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time, it’s a small world. Yes. And people [01:30:15] need to understand that too. Yeah. If you do something untoward in dentistry, it’s very [01:30:20] likely the whole community will find out. And so, you know, it’s a double edged sword, but. [01:30:25]

Andy Acton: It is it’s, it’s an ecosystem. And actually we all need to do well. Yeah, [01:30:30] because if any, because it’s actually a relatively small market. Very small. And if [01:30:35] any part of it wobbled or fractured or broke, we’ve got a problem. So yeah. [01:30:40] So banks, if if the banks suddenly didn’t love dentistry anymore. Yeah. Yeah. That [01:30:45] stifles growth. If people didn’t feel confident in buying practice. We’ve got a problem. If [01:30:50] um one of the larger corporates suffered a problem, the ripple effect of that [01:30:55] through the the money world would be unbearable. Yeah. There are lots of. So whilst [01:31:00] for me, you know, we talked about kind of the corporate and independent side of things. And I’m not, I’m not anti-corporate, [01:31:05] I’m just pro independent. But we, we [01:31:10] need every element of, of the profession to do well. And we should, we should [01:31:15] be looking out for one another. You know, there is enough business to go around, but we should be looking out for one another to make sure [01:31:20] that as a as a collective, as a sector, everyone’s being supported [01:31:25] because we, we all we all get elevated when good things happen.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, it’s it’s [01:31:30] a very common story, right? If the practice runs out of something, they’ll run over to the practice across [01:31:35] the road and and invariably they’ll get that thing, they’ll lend them because, you know, we’ve all been the same [01:31:40] thing with course organisers. You know, when some engine motor doesn’t turn up, I [01:31:45] call up a competitor in terms of courses and say, can you help? And they will. They [01:31:50] will help. So it’s super important.

Andy Acton: I think it struck me that during Covid, the amount of practices [01:31:55] when they had their PPE went round to their local hospital and just donated their [01:32:00] PPE.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the other thing, do you think when dentists don’t have to turn up every day from eight [01:32:05] till six? Do you remember the amount of content that came out of dentistry? You know, [01:32:10] the dentists are capable people. Yeah. They’re just so busy doing dentistry. Yeah, [01:32:15] that’s the thing.

Andy Acton: Yeah, it’s a very it’s a very time intensive time. Hungary. [01:32:20] But but personal thing, you, you you work with your hands.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s finish it with the final [01:32:25] question from your podcast.

Andy Acton: What for you?

Payman Langroudi: For you.

Andy Acton: For me? [01:32:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because your, your podcast used to end with if you had a fly on the wall moment.

Andy Acton: A fly on [01:32:35] the wall moment, where.

Payman Langroudi: Which moment would you want to be the fly on the wall?

Andy Acton: I’d [01:32:40] probably like to be in [01:32:45] the changing room when Manchester United won the [01:32:50] treble, so they won the Champions League final and they were.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a big fan? [01:32:55]

Andy Acton: Yeah, yeah, I support them. I’m at the wrong end of the country, but I, I support [01:33:00] them. There’s been good decades and not so good decades. But I’d love to have been back in that changing [01:33:05] room when they were all but out of it. And then two very late goals [01:33:10] came in just to feel the energy and the mood. I think as [01:33:15] a as a, a person manager, I think Fergie’s unbelievable. I [01:33:20] think trying to manage those egos and testosterone and everything else. [01:33:25] Oh, they are, they’re incredibly well paid, but just children.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I was [01:33:30] I was in a bar in Cardiff. My friend, he’s a massive big player in Cardiff. Not not football, [01:33:35] just a big player. And he said oh look that kid, that kid, that kid. The Cardiff just [01:33:40] paid £2 million for him or something. I’m looking at him, he’s like literally as a teenager. [01:33:45] It’s wild. He’s a teenager. Yeah. And so like, you know, you’re having to manage that [01:33:50] situation as well as a child. Crazy millionaire child. Yeah.

Andy Acton: But [01:33:55] I’d love to have felt what that what that would have been like in that moment. You know, something that, um, [01:34:00] kind of had never been done in the modern era. And just to see how that [01:34:05] those group of people, how they react to that because quite often you hear.

Payman Langroudi: The troubles, the league, the [01:34:10] FA Cup and the European Cup.

Andy Acton: Uefa Champions League. Yeah, I remember that.

Payman Langroudi: But but but.

Andy Acton: Because it’s funny [01:34:15] because um, Jonny Wilkinson famously kicked um the goal when [01:34:20] England beat Australia to win the World Cup. Um, many, many years ago, back in the [01:34:25] early 2000. And he says that the, the feeling of that, the feeling [01:34:30] of that success had gone by the time he hit the changing room. So we assume it lives these [01:34:35] these moments of glory live forever. But it would just be interesting to know that [01:34:40] when they got back into the changing room.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, well, you know, the difference between a [01:34:45] great sportsman and a good sportsman is, you know, like, uh, sometimes [01:34:50] you’ll watch a tennis player and he’s like, match point down and then he [01:34:55] might serve an ace. Yeah, yeah. And it is, you know, like, you know, you can’t get high [01:35:00] on the highs. And at the same time, you can’t get low on the lows because [01:35:05] that’s what makes them great that they can delete what just happened. And the next rally [01:35:10] is a brand new rally. You know, me and you have difficulty separating. So I’m sure [01:35:15] actually that, you know, the opposite effect happens as well.

Andy Acton: A very narrow.

Payman Langroudi: Band. Yeah. They don’t get the pleasure. [01:35:20] Because if you get high on the pleasure, you’ll get high on the pain, low on the pain. You know what I mean?

Andy Acton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Perhaps [01:35:25] that is interesting.

Andy Acton: Perhaps that is it.

Payman Langroudi: So, so lovely having you as always. Thank you for being so [01:35:30] easy talking to you.

Andy Acton: It’s been a wonderful conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much, I enjoyed it. Me [01:35:35] too.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:35:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:35:45] hosts Payman Langroudi [01:35:50] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this [01:35:55] far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:36:00] actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:36:05] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing [01:36:10] and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of [01:36:15] it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Rhona Eskander: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers [00:00:05] where we take the talk from dentistry to mental health to business. And I feel like we’ve had a real pivot in [00:00:10] the last couple of months since I’ve been back, where we’re really also moving the conversations towards [00:00:15] business as well, which I think is actually really tied into mental health. I’m so excited today that we [00:00:20] have Doctor Vinita, who’s also known as doctor V, she is an Instagram friend, and I’ve [00:00:25] been following her for a long time because she is a powerhouse. She owns a skincare brand which is specifically [00:00:30] targeted to women of colour. And for me, this really resonated because being somebody [00:00:35] that’s Middle Eastern, that’s had always struggled with my own skincare growing up, and doctor V has [00:00:40] taken this on like a champion. She has basically confronted issues which have been [00:00:45] stigmatised or taboo to have those conversations and said, hey, we need different skincare for different reasons. [00:00:50] So I’m really proud to have doctor V on the show. Welcome.

Vanita Rattan: Thank you. I’m excited. [00:00:55] Thank you.

Rhona Eskander: So doctor V, I obviously saw you because your social following [00:01:00] is so engaged. But what I want to do is I want to start from the beginning, you know. [00:01:05] Can you take us back to the very beginning? I know that you’re a doctor. I want to know where you qualified [00:01:10] and how the skin care journey started.

Vanita Rattan: So I have a really unique story. [00:01:15] So I did medicine at UCL. It literally was my dream since I was 13 years old and my cousin [00:01:20] had gotten in, and that’s what I wanted to do. And after medical school, [00:01:25] my parents had a company which was a cosmetics company, and I was fascinated [00:01:30] with how ingredients work together. And I realised that actually no one was [00:01:35] creating products for skin of colour. And so I went into the lab after medical [00:01:40] school. So after I qualified, I became a doctor. I went into the lab and I did 18 months as an apprentice, [00:01:45] and I then became a cosmetic formulator. And at this time, this is not a normal journey, right? [00:01:50] Doctors don’t leave the NHS and go and learn how to make creams. Yeah, [00:01:55] of course it goes against the whole Indian mentality. Yes, but I [00:02:00] felt like no one was doing it and there was this huge unmet need.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And [00:02:05] so we actually created something called the hyperpigmentation Clinic. So I had a chain of eight clinics around [00:02:10] the world. We created the world’s first professional grade treatment for pigmentation for skin of colour. We [00:02:15] ran that for eight years until Covid hit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Slow down, slow [00:02:20] down. Yeah.

[BOTH]: That’s so impressive.

Payman Langroudi: To get to eight clinics owned by you [00:02:25] around the world.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How did you negotiate that? I mean, you’re a doctor at the end [00:02:30] of the day. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: So it was quite good. So my parents are also in business and so but [00:02:35] not doctors. So my dad’s a doctor. My mom’s a pharmacist. They had their own cosmetics company. So that’s [00:02:40] how I learned was from their cosmetic formulator. And so they already had connections around the world. And so when. [00:02:45]

Rhona Eskander: I have a question for you, did they also what was their perception of practising [00:02:50] medicine versus using medicine as a tool to do business? Right. Because that’s different, [00:02:55] right.

Vanita Rattan: It is different. And actually, I think they’re very entrepreneurial. I think my parents are very entrepreneurial. [00:03:00] I think generally everybody I know is like my whole family, extended family, we [00:03:05] all tend to have a profession and we all have a business as well. Okay. This is like very normal. So [00:03:10] for me to do business with my medical knowledge was just [00:03:15] like water. It’s like second nature for me. And they already had the connections. So because we were already [00:03:20] we’re already on Harley Street. We were in Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow. Then the next step was we’re [00:03:25] outside of the country. Should we go to. So we did South Africa, we’re in Mauritius, we did India. [00:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: All at the same time.

Vanita Rattan: One after the other. So. And Pakistan. So we literally it was like [00:03:35] six.

[BOTH]: Months apart, six.

Vanita Rattan: Months apart.

[BOTH]: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: Believable.

Vanita Rattan: It was really hard. Honestly, managing businesses [00:03:40] abroad.

Payman Langroudi: Funded that the sales fund that.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. So the company here, my business here was funding [00:03:45] the expansion. So it was very organic. I’ve never borrowed money. I’ve always bootstrapped. [00:03:50] Even to this day we’re bootstrapped. I feel like you’re more frugal and [00:03:55] you’re more intentional with every pound. More cost benefit analysis when it’s your money.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, [00:04:00] so with the first skincare clinic, what was the sort of premise? So were you [00:04:05] the treating practitioner? Did you have a team of therapists? How did it work?

Vanita Rattan: It started off with just me [00:04:10] and I was doing the consultations and the treatments. Okay. Then as we got bigger, we [00:04:15] then hired a team of practitioners. And so, you know, we had a team around [00:04:20] the country. Um, and then again abroad, I would train and then they would practice. [00:04:25] Now this ran for eight years and it was an amazing.

[BOTH]: What was it called. [00:04:30]

Vanita Rattan: The hyperpigmentation clinic. So it was this wonderful clinic. We had amazing [00:04:35] results. And then Covid hit and we didn’t know [00:04:40] what to do. We were haemorrhaging money because of we couldn’t do furlough. All our practitioners [00:04:45] were self-employed.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Vanita Rattan: So we were just losing money everywhere. And I was trying [00:04:50] to pay practitioners even though nobody was working. Because what’s everyone supposed to do? And [00:04:55] we had to make a really difficult decision, which was cut this incredible business that [00:05:00] we have, keep the laboratory and then figure out in my late 30s, [00:05:05] can I learn how to navigate social media?

Rhona Eskander: So at this point, the clinics [00:05:10] had been built just through word of mouth, word of mouth and traditional marketing.

Vanita Rattan: No traditional marketing. [00:05:15] Oh yeah. Sorry. Traditional marketing. So like Google ads.

Rhona Eskander: And SEO and things like that.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. And starting [00:05:20] of YouTube, sorry, starting of Instagram, like very like, like [00:05:25] trying, but not really understanding it properly. Then during Covid, I literally purchased [00:05:30] all the dummies guides to all the different Instagram and YouTube and every single book for [00:05:35] YouTube. I literally studied it like a degree. So I studied social media like a degree. And [00:05:40] in those two years, I decided, right, we’re going to figure out how [00:05:45] to become an influencer, figure out, can I build enough of a following? Are enough people interested in [00:05:50] skin of colour that I can use my lab to formulate for them. And is [00:05:55] this enough to have a life? Like to build a life. To build a business. And [00:06:00] these are all lots of ifs, right? Because don’t forget, I grew up at a time without even Facebook. I was [00:06:05] at university without Facebook. So we weren’t really part of this world. [00:06:10] And it just so happened that everybody was at home. Everyone was excited about skincare, and [00:06:15] people were watching YouTube videos. So we started to grow. And as I grew, I [00:06:20] would ask my following, hey guys, what would you like me to make next? I would take them into the lab with me. I’d film, [00:06:25] we’d literally literally say, do you want this ingredient? You want this ingredient, you want this colour packaging. Literally built it [00:06:30] with my people. That’s why it’s this community is so strong. It’s in the DNA [00:06:35] of this business. They’ve been there from day one, like the whole [00:06:40] way, answering questions and building this thing with me. So this is also why I feel like it couldn’t have failed [00:06:45] because it feels me on my own. Yes, it could have failed. High possibility of it failing, [00:06:50] but we were doing it together. How do you fail when you have thousands of people guiding you? [00:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: They kind of call that building public, right? Yeah. And Glossier was a bit [00:07:00] like that. Yeah. Started off as a blog.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But what you’re saying there is [00:07:05] really super important that it’s not something you can measure. Yeah. That, that, that sort of [00:07:10] fandom, that sort of the way purpose almost behind it, that love.

Rhona Eskander: I do think [00:07:15] there’s something to be said. What I think is very important is that you distinguish [00:07:20] the difference between a following and a community, because people can have a following, [00:07:25] but if the following is not engaged and don’t feel like they’re going to die hard by the founder. [00:07:30] People actually don’t sell. And we’ve seen this with influencers, online influencers [00:07:35] that have 1 or 2 million followers. They bring out their own product and the product [00:07:40] flops. And I do believe that is representative of the community. They’ve [00:07:45] built the community almost saying, I kind of trust you, but not [00:07:50] enough to buy what you’re actually selling. And I think that that’s important. [00:07:55] So the thing is, is that you built a community, not a following. And I think that’s [00:08:00] where the key distinction lies.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. I agree with you, I completely agree. I call that [00:08:05] my people, my skin colour family. We’re a tribe. It’s not I don’t even like the word following [00:08:10] because what does that even mean? Like I’m serving them and I’m following them. So that’s [00:08:15] how I feel. And even like when I sign off my letters, always love Doctor Vee. Every Instagram, [00:08:20] I know it’s not professional, but that’s how I feel. I have so much love for what we’re doing.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:08:25] you did you launch this in 2020, then the skincare brand 2021. [00:08:30]

Vanita Rattan: So like 2020, we were just finding our feet. I think I launched our first product, which [00:08:35] is such a crazy product, what we launched with, right? It was called the lip hyperpigmentation kit. Yeah. [00:08:40] This is a £100 kit for lip hyperpigmentation in skin [00:08:45] of colour. You could not be more niche. Yeah, it’s not a pigmentation serum. [00:08:50] It’s for one specific part of the face. And it’s so expensive. And [00:08:55] that sold out. Wow. And when that sold out, which we had to buy in the thousands.

Rhona Eskander: Proof of [00:09:00] concept.

Vanita Rattan: Yes I realised hold on. What about everything else? Yeah. [00:09:05] What about head to toe? Cradle to grave? Everything? Yeah. What about all the things that we need? [00:09:10] Forget lip pigmentation.

Payman Langroudi: I love the way you think.

Vanita Rattan: You know that’s the NHS slogan. Yeah. [00:09:15]

Rhona Eskander: So at this point, did you go to your parents as mentors for all of this? The [00:09:20] whole time?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, the whole time. They’ve they’ve always been very good guides. Um, and they’ve been in this [00:09:25] world, they’ve been in this industry, uh, although they don’t understand social media as much. [00:09:30] So we’ve always had like that sort of tension, like I’m explaining and, you know, my dad, [00:09:35] for example, was like, keep it very medical, you know, come from the science come from.

Rhona Eskander: They get it.

Vanita Rattan: Wrong. No, [00:09:40] he’s right. He’s so right. But how is how do you deliver [00:09:45] the medicine in a way that is understandable? Auntie is going to understand, you know. Or a [00:09:50] child’s gonna.

Rhona Eskander: Jump on the trends because I think what we do is very similar. It’s like the dentists and stuff that [00:09:55] are obsessed with like, no, I’m going to be very clinical. And the problem is, is that the social media is built [00:10:00] around relatability. It’s not built on like how beautiful. And the thing is, is that you’ll see a [00:10:05] much more talented dentist or doctor and they get so irate seeing like general [00:10:10] dentists or doctors do better. And I’m like, listen, the point is, is that people buy the the thing [00:10:15] they buy the people. Do you see what I mean? They’re not buying the product or the service. They’re actually buying [00:10:20] people. Yeah. And I think that they find it really hard to resonate with. Did you go through a grieving period, [00:10:25] though, with your clinics?

Vanita Rattan: We didn’t have time. I was, I was I was in [00:10:30] fight or flight, like a lot of us were during Covid. I had two children in private school. I had a [00:10:35] house to pay for. Like we, I, there was no time. It was just, [00:10:40] you know, you become very matter of fact in a crisis. And I don’t know about other people, but I do. I [00:10:45] go straight into right, cut this. Move on. We have to do this right. I was making five YouTube videos [00:10:50] a week.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Vanita Rattan: I was producing hundreds of pieces of content a week and [00:10:55] bombing on at least 70% of them weren’t working. And for about a [00:11:00] year and a half, I would say it wasn’t really very good content. Like I could have. Like now I look back, I like, [00:11:05] I sometimes cringe at some of the stuff that I’ve done. Um, and then and [00:11:10] you have to go through the cringe like mountain to.

Payman Langroudi: Get really interesting to me is the pivot. [00:11:15]

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because you would have, you would have thought that getting to eight clinics in such a short period [00:11:20] of time is a successful endeavour. Yeah. And then Covid comes [00:11:25] along and instead of you just rebuilding and doing that again, you completely pivoted to [00:11:30] this whole social media thing. And that’s a superpower, right? That we didn’t have a choice.

Vanita Rattan: I think [00:11:35] I would love to think that that was me, but it just actually didn’t have a choice because we didn’t know how long [00:11:40] this thing was going to go on for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And we. So we couldn’t rebuild. Like we had to do something now. And [00:11:45] I had a certain amount of savings. Either I go through my savings, draw it down to nothing [00:11:50] and pray that, you know, there’ll be a time that we can come back or like [00:11:55] you just have faith in yourself and you. One thing I will say about myself is I feel like I can [00:12:00] achieve anything. There’s nothing I can’t do.

Rhona Eskander: I love that.

Vanita Rattan: I do feel like I’ve got this, like.

Payman Langroudi: Overextending [00:12:05] that it destroyed the business so quickly.

Vanita Rattan: Uh, meaning that I should have [00:12:10] waited longer or would.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you know, you were you were reinvesting too quickly.

Vanita Rattan: It [00:12:15] was very we went through as much pain as I think we could have taken as much uncertainty. [00:12:20] You know, what I don’t like is when I don’t have control over what’s happening. [00:12:25] If I’m reliant, for example, on the government or Covid or other people, external [00:12:30] factors, that’s what gives me the most anxiety. If I feel like, right, I’ve made the decision that I’m now [00:12:35] stopping this thing and I’m going to do this thing that is in my power, I feel like I can do anything. [00:12:40]

Rhona Eskander: I think there’s something to be said, you know, like, and I guess this is probably a question for [00:12:45] both of you. When is too long, too long? And what I mean by that is, you know, I had [00:12:50] a conversation with a really good friend of mine and she does something in the media industry and [00:12:55] she goes, I want to pack it in. I’ve been doing it for ten years. And same, I have a friend who had a very successful [00:13:00] jewellery company. And in the last two years she’s making net loss. [00:13:05] And the reason is because gold has gone up and all of these external factors. And she goes, I’ve [00:13:10] spent ten years building this brand. And she goes, I’m kind of tired. And she goes, and [00:13:15] I can’t anymore. I can’t do it. And I just don’t know. Like, when do you think is the right [00:13:20] time? Because even with enlightened or even the doctor, the skincare brand, where obviously you’re [00:13:25] never going to be in a position of a business, some people are, and they’re really lucky where you’re in a constant like growth [00:13:30] spurt. And then I think there is a real skill for people.

Payman Langroudi: Even even those businesses [00:13:35] are.

Rhona Eskander: They sell quickly.

Payman Langroudi: They’re trying, they’re trying 30, 40 things before 3 or 4 things actually [00:13:40] make it. But I’m sure you’ve done. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But what how do you think? What do you think? Do you think there is a thing as [00:13:45] too long, 30 years, 40 years?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But even even within the product. Yeah. Sometimes you put a lot of [00:13:50] emotional effort into a product and then you’ve been up a few cul de sacs. [00:13:55] Yeah. And eventually you’ve worked it out. Now, now it’s not selling as well as it could. [00:14:00] And sometimes you put emotion into the journey it took to get to that product. And some, some, you know, accountant [00:14:05] might say, just cut that product. My partner. Yeah. He’s so happy to [00:14:10] kill kill products. But I’ve been through so much pain to get to the but, you know, it’s one of those [00:14:15] things.

Rhona Eskander: But do you think there is a year time period or do you think it’s just dependent.

Payman Langroudi: On the situation? But some people [00:14:20] are better at it than others. And the weird thing is you’ve got the other side where sticking [00:14:25] at stuff is one of the cornerstones of success. You know, like being [00:14:30] around.

Rhona Eskander: Especially in the impatient currents, like impatient climate that we’re living in. What about you, doctor? I [00:14:35] think your opportunity.

Vanita Rattan: There’s an opportunity cost and that’s what people sometimes miss.

Rhona Eskander: Go [00:14:40] for.

Vanita Rattan: It. So for example, say you’re in a job that you hate, but [00:14:45] all you can see is this job and all you know is how much time it’s taken you [00:14:50] to, to understand this job and get the job and what you might not be [00:14:55] seeing. And the lens you might not be looking at is what else you could have done with your talent in [00:15:00] that period of time. And sometimes we get scared and sometimes we have sunk cost mentality [00:15:05] where you’ve invested all of this time into something and now you can’t [00:15:10] let go. Yeah. And actually, I’m really a little bit unemotional in that respect. [00:15:15] Um, I’m very emotional in many respects, but in this respect, when it comes to opportunity cost, I feel like [00:15:20] you only have a certain number of years productive years before old age and Alzheimer’s [00:15:25] kicks in. Have I, in that very limited time, which is my only [00:15:30] limiting resource, have I maximised it? Am I wasting my time on anything [00:15:35] that is not going to bring me joy and not make me feel proud. And so when it even [00:15:40] came to the clinics, it was I could have carried on. And prior to that, I’ve had [00:15:45] other businesses. So Ace Medicine, for example, was my first ever company. It was a medical education company. We [00:15:50] trained 10,000 students to get into medical school. We had [00:15:55] it was, I.

Rhona Eskander: Feel like I’ve heard of it.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, it was my first. You probably did. It was like we were it was really big. It [00:16:00] was for dentistry as well. So we did medicine and dentistry. I did hear of it. Um, so that was my first [00:16:05] company. And we shut that when it was highly profitable. Again, like the hypertension clinic, we shut it when it was [00:16:10] highly profitable because opportunity cost. So we were, we were at that point of [00:16:15] transitioning to the hyperpigmentation clinic. And this was doing so well that my time [00:16:20] was more valued here than it was there. So even though this was a highly profitable [00:16:25] business and actually anyone would have been so happy with it, we shut it.

Rhona Eskander: So but [00:16:30] that’s the thing. Like, this is what I’m saying is a bit of a skill as well, because there were some clinics that probably were only [00:16:35] open for like 1 or 2 years, and then they actually sold during Covid because the [00:16:40] opportunity was, is that the EBITDA of the businesses looked really high because dentistry boomed [00:16:45] during Covid, which is different to what you had. And so those clinics, when they sold, they saw [00:16:50] the opportunity. They were like, you know what, I could probably work in this for another five, ten years, [00:16:55] even though like I know a clinic, they’d only been open for two years, but they were on that composite bonding boom. [00:17:00] Numbers look really high and they sold out for a really high amount. And then you think, why not? [00:17:05] Do you see what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Lucky timing as well. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don’t. It’s one of those one [00:17:10] of those things.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So also I want to move on to you were saying obviously that you had the pressures. You [00:17:15] knew that you had a lot of responsibilities. What does your partner do?

Vanita Rattan: So we’re in business together. [00:17:20] We’ve been business together from the beginning as well. No he did he did economics at UCL. [00:17:25] So we were dating at uni. Um we got married straight after I graduated and [00:17:30] actually on my engagement day, he was working at Lehman Brothers as a trader. [00:17:35] Okay. On our engagement day. Do you remember when Lehman Brothers collapsed? Yes. [00:17:40] And the men were coming out with their boxes. My husband was one of those men.

Payman Langroudi: No way.

Vanita Rattan: And [00:17:45] at the party, I engaged with a party. It was like some commiseration. Everyone was like, I’m [00:17:50] so sorry. Instead of like, congratulations. I was like, are you okay? My poor husband, like the sweetest man [00:17:55] you’ve ever met. He just, like, he just didn’t know what to do with his face. Yeah. And I was [00:18:00] like, this is like, not the best party. Like any other day.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:18:05] then what.

Vanita Rattan: Happened? Um, so actually on that day, my dad said to him, uh, to [00:18:10] my husband, um, she needs you. She needs you in business. [00:18:15] And this is when I was just launching ace medicine. So this was my first company we launched. Have you, [00:18:20] did you guys do ascii’s for for dentists? Yes. So we created something called Aclc. We won the British [00:18:25] Medical Association Book Awards against my dean of medicine. Yeah. Which was like, [00:18:30] incredible as a 24 year old girl. Um, and that we launch, I [00:18:35] was launching that I spent the last year and a half at medical school putting that together. So it’s a video library of before YouTube, [00:18:40] a video library of every imagine with a book that goes with it. So we launched that [00:18:45] and all these courses coming, but I physically, I’m not as good on the finances. [00:18:50] Like my husband is like, he’s really good at the minutiae. I’m like my husband, big hedge fund.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah, [00:18:55] exactly. I’m big picture. I’m a.

Vanita Rattan: Big picture. Like go, go, go.

Rhona Eskander: He’s a minutiae. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: Like, don’t do that. [00:19:00] We’re not doing this. Yeah. We’re not spending money here. So actually, I needed him. I would have been [00:19:05] bankrupt without him. Yeah. So it’s the best thing ever. When Lehman Brothers went under for us Touchwood and [00:19:10] he, you know, trusted me to do this.

Rhona Eskander: So was he always [00:19:15] a business partner with you?

Vanita Rattan: From the beginning? From the day we got engaged.

Rhona Eskander: And my husband refuses [00:19:20] to become a business partner with me because he says that he always witnessed his parents [00:19:25] who were in business together. And he felt like it just put such a strain on their marriage and [00:19:30] he feels like. Then it becomes. And he’s he’s helped me like with bits on the clinic and then just like giving [00:19:35] me advice and stuff. But ultimately I find it really interesting because [00:19:40] I think it’s quite cool to do it. But I think he just feels like it’s, it puts a strain on the relationship.

Vanita Rattan: He’s [00:19:45] seen it like that. Then I totally understand. And you know what? If it [00:19:50] had been any any other person, but it wouldn’t have worked. I am [00:19:55] not an easy person to work with. I know this, I really I feel sorry for anyone that works with me before they [00:20:00] even come and work with me. I tell them I am. I’ve got really high standards. I work like a crazy person. Like [00:20:05] it’s best if you go and save yourself and run away from me like I really. Yeah. And he’s one of the only. [00:20:10]

Payman Langroudi: Were you like this when you were six?

Vanita Rattan: Uh, so I’m dyslexic and I went to one of the top [00:20:15] schools in the country. Um, and.

Rhona Eskander: When were you diagnosed?

Vanita Rattan: I never was diagnosed until I got to medical [00:20:20] school. And I diagnosed myself in the dyslexia lecture when I’m suddenly getting 100%. And [00:20:25] I was like, it’s not funny.

Payman Langroudi: Diagnose yourself in the dyslexia.

Rhona Eskander: Did [00:20:30] you have dyslexia with spelling? No. And no one noticed.

Vanita Rattan: I just thought I was thick. Yeah, I just thought [00:20:35] I was just slower and, like, just stupid, really, honestly. So I remember [00:20:40] you have to stand up and you’d read and all the, like, letters be jumbled up. And I just thought, that’s normal, right? [00:20:45] Because I don’t know what other people are seeing. All I know is that I can’t seem to read this thing and everyone’s reading fluently, [00:20:50] like I must be thick. And so I worked like a crazy person. [00:20:55] So it was it was sheer hard work. It was like, I’m going to outwork everybody, [00:21:00] 10 to 1. So I remember even my English teacher telling me, you’re not going to get a C. And I was [00:21:05] like, I can’t get into medical school with a C. And so I would do ten essays a night each [00:21:10] essays an hour, and I would come back the next day with ten essays, and I’d make her mark it like I was such [00:21:15] a psycho. When I go to study.

Rhona Eskander: That shows about determination, because I think that Neurodivergence [00:21:20] is so poorly understood. And I do feel, for example, that [00:21:25] we really need to revisit the school system like I’m late diagnosed ADHD and also [00:21:30] like I failed my 11 plus.

Vanita Rattan: Oh me.

Rhona Eskander: Too. When when I went to secondary school, it was a [00:21:35] very artistic school. And I remember the headmaster or whoever was interviewing me had written not [00:21:40] very clever, but might be good at drama. And in my school, no one was interested in [00:21:45] dentistry because most people did want to go into the arts and drama and all that kind of thing. I really wanted to be a dentist, [00:21:50] and just like you, I just really focussed. I wasn’t one of these people. I couldn’t do last [00:21:55] minute revision. I had to do three months before the exam, write it out, write it out, [00:22:00] write it out, write it out. And the repetition piece was really important for me. And obviously I [00:22:05] did end up getting into dental school. And then I realised that my brain was really into English and philosophy [00:22:10] and then chemistry and biology. But the problem is, is that neurodivergent brains are treated like [00:22:15] a problem. And I think it’s like the stats show a lot more people are neurodivergent [00:22:20] than neurotypical. And that could be things like dyslexia, ADHD, [00:22:25] autism, all these different things. And people treat it like it’s a problem. [00:22:30] But I find it crazy when you’d know better with both your kids. Like, has the curriculum changed that much [00:22:35] since we were at school?

Payman Langroudi: Like they give a lot of like, oh, you can have extra time in exams if you’ve [00:22:40] got a diagnosis.

Rhona Eskander: But has the actual.

Payman Langroudi: Class gets that, by the way, half the class gets extra [00:22:45] time for their exams. And when I talk to my kids about their friends who are on medication, [00:22:50] which you might have been on if you were a kid today.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, well I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that happens. Right. [00:22:55]

Rhona Eskander: But a lot of them on like ADHD meds.

Payman Langroudi: And like 5 or 6 of my daughter’s friends, you know, [00:23:00] or my son’s. Yeah, yeah. It’s common these days. And one thing my, my daughter said to me was [00:23:05] that, um, a lot of times it’s more for the class than for the kid. [00:23:10] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: As in the kid, you know, disruptive. Compliant when he’s on his medication.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:23:15] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, when they’re off their medication because they’re such amazing people and it’s [00:23:20] a sad it’s a sad thing.

Rhona Eskander: Well, this is the thing. I spoke to a friend of mine who’s a model very successful yesterday, [00:23:25] and we were talking about ADHD medications, and she said to me that she tried it, but it stunted all [00:23:30] of her creativity. Yeah. And I find that interesting because when you look at a lot of people, particularly when it comes [00:23:35] to media and the way that they think, a lot of people do have ADHD. And when I used [00:23:40] to think of ADHD, because obviously I wasn’t diagnosed in school, I wasn’t your typical person because I [00:23:45] wasn’t climbing up the walls, which was what you’d have, you know, the boy that would go crazy if he had Haribo, you know, like [00:23:50] he needs Ritalin. That was the sort of stigma we had. But I think it’s just a lot more nuanced than that [00:23:55] because, as you said, dyslexia, you might immediately, because of your own biases, be like, [00:24:00] that’s the person that can’t spell, read or write and not recognise that like it’s a doctor. Do you know what I mean? It’s somebody [00:24:05] that’s incredibly intelligent.

Payman Langroudi: Funny the way you’re talking about sort of that obsessive. [00:24:10]

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of side of you.

Vanita Rattan: It’s too much even for me. This [00:24:15] is why I give myself palpitations.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest, your biggest strength is your biggest weakness, right? Often. Yeah. [00:24:20] So. So I was gonna, I’ll get to like, what is the problem side of it? Because obviously the, the, the [00:24:25] plus side looks quite obvious. You’re achieving loads and all of that. But really what I’m quite interested in is [00:24:30] what was the trigger for it? Like, were you always that?

Vanita Rattan: So I [00:24:35] first of all, I’m a child of immigrants. And I think that is really important.

Payman Langroudi: Come from.

Vanita Rattan: So [00:24:40] from Kenya, um.

Payman Langroudi: Africa, so many.

Vanita Rattan: I know we’ve been there for 100 years actually. [00:24:45] So even though India.

Payman Langroudi: The top people I speak to, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: There’s an amazing dentist that’s starting [00:24:50] with me from Kenya actually.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Rhona Eskander: And I don’t know if you know him. He’s very, [00:24:55] very, very talented. Very hard working. Yeah, but go ahead.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, yeah. So coming from that immigrant mentality, [00:25:00] they were already in survival state.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And if they’re looking at their child and their child [00:25:05] is struggling, it’s just pure anger, right? Like they, they. Let’s [00:25:10] be real. And so for that, that’s their translation of [00:25:15] love. Or like they just, they’re in fear, fear state. And so you are absorbing their [00:25:20] fear state and all you can do. The only thing in your power is to work. [00:25:25] That’s all you can do. You can outwork everybody. That’s the only thing that you can control. You can’t control how [00:25:30] intelligent you are. You can’t control how you’re reading. There’s so much not in your control, but this you can control. [00:25:35] And so.

Payman Langroudi: So can we talk about sacrifice?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. I didn’t have a child. Like I wouldn’t not as in [00:25:40] didn’t have a childhood, but I didn’t, I didn’t have go out. I didn’t have friends. I wasn’t allowed out. I, it was like.

Rhona Eskander: Did your parents [00:25:45] put that for you?

Vanita Rattan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And what about now though?

Vanita Rattan: Now, now, now is very different. Now I’m in.

Payman Langroudi: Control. [00:25:50] But you are. You’re sacrificing something by being this obsessed with.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. Even today I was thinking today, like, when was [00:25:55] the last time I went to see my friends?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s.

Vanita Rattan: Something I don’t. And I.

Payman Langroudi: You just said you’ve got 40 [00:26:00] skews.

Vanita Rattan: I know I tell my friends like I blow everybody off and it’s actually my fault. And I, and [00:26:05] I was even telling my husband today, I was like, why do I do that? He’s like, yeah, why do you do that? And I was like, because I’m still in this warrior [00:26:10] mindset. I’m not in.

Payman Langroudi: This with a product launch. It’s like a wedding or something. Yeah, nothing [00:26:15] can go wrong.

Vanita Rattan: But it never ends right for.

Payman Langroudi: Me.

Vanita Rattan: I have new products coming out. I’ve got [00:26:20] ten products coming out in the next six months.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you losing out on in life? Are you not travelling?

Vanita Rattan: No, we travel [00:26:25] a lot, thankfully. So holidays are really important.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing?

Rhona Eskander: Do you work on holiday?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, we always [00:26:30] like. I’m always making reels and content on holiday, writing scripts, but I do actually really enjoy [00:26:35] my holidays. I think what I don’t do is spend time with my friends, I think have girl time and just gossip [00:26:40] and just chat. I don’t do that actually. I don’t give myself grace and [00:26:45] just go, I’m blocking this time just to have fun with my friends like that is never in the diary. [00:26:50] And I think moving forward, that is something I definitely need to do for myself. [00:26:55] And I really want my children to be different to me. Like I don’t want them to have to, you know, mechanically [00:27:00] think I need to see my friends. You know, it should be natural that.

Rhona Eskander: How old [00:27:05] were. So how old are your children?

Vanita Rattan: So my daughter is 12 and my son is nine. [00:27:10]

Rhona Eskander: And when they were first born, what business was launched at that [00:27:15] point.

Vanita Rattan: So when I was pregnant with my daughter, I had ace medicine. [00:27:20] Um, I had, I was actually launching a restaurant which [00:27:25] failed, which failed in Westfield’s the most expensive failure of my [00:27:30] life that caused me.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve had restaurants are huge.

Vanita Rattan: It was like I was in my. I was 28. We lost over a quarter of £1 [00:27:35] million. That was like all our savings plus like our property, the one house, the flat that we were living [00:27:40] in.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of Indian.

Vanita Rattan: It was. No she wasn’t. It was teppanyaki. Japanese.

Rhona Eskander: Why do you [00:27:45] think it didn’t work?

Vanita Rattan: Wrong location. I never go into a business that has [00:27:50] a low barriers to entry because the competition is too great. So what I learned was all the businesses that [00:27:55] I started that were medical businesses that you need to have a certain level of knowledge, were [00:28:00] all very successful businesses that have that anyone can start. You don’t need, [00:28:05] you know, a certain level of degree in something. They’re very, [00:28:10] very difficult. Like you don’t do it. That’s my learning to myself and learning to everybody is [00:28:15] higher. Barriers to entry are the types of businesses you need to get into. So that’s why I was doing that at the same time. [00:28:20] So I remember that was a failing business while I was pregnant. I’d had like a knee injury at the time as well. So that was [00:28:25] with my daughter Sienna, then with Josh. Um, we were [00:28:30] in a much better place actually. We had the clinics and we didn’t have ace medicine [00:28:35] anymore and the restaurant had shut. So actually we were in a much, much better place when it came to Josh’s [00:28:40] turn.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so my question is, how did you deal with motherhood and running businesses?

Vanita Rattan: So [00:28:45] thankfully it was when it came to the clinics, we I was basically in the clinics on the [00:28:50] weekends. So maybe two days a week or three days a week. And then during the rest of the week, I was at home. [00:28:55] Then my husband was working from home because you can work from home, you can have a home office. [00:29:00] And so that was actually like not terrible. But my daughter was [00:29:05] from ten months old. She’s been at nursery like, you know, five days a week until 6 p.m.. So [00:29:10] I think I actually really missed out on a lot of her childhood because at the weekends I’m working. So [00:29:15] I really was only seeing her in the evenings. And so when it came to Josh’s [00:29:20] time, I really wanted to spend a bit more time with him. But again, it wasn’t as much as I would have wanted. And [00:29:25] there is a sacrifice there. And I think it’s only probably now that I’m spending. [00:29:30]

Rhona Eskander: But from working from home. Were you able to do that?

Vanita Rattan: I so because the kids were at nursery, like [00:29:35] because we had to work. If the kids are at home that I don’t know how people do this. Some people work with their kids at home. There’s [00:29:40] no way we could have done that.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, listen, I have a nanny and the days [00:29:45] that I work from home, so I work from home now. Like, I only go into clinic two days a week, and the rest [00:29:50] of the time is like managing the clinic and doing all the stuff like content, articles, [00:29:55] like all that stuff. And it takes so much time. But like if my nanny wasn’t there because even [00:30:00] though people are like, oh, you know, a baby that’s like a few months old and like, they still need attention. You can’t [00:30:05] just like leave them. You know, you just can’t just leave them. So I think it is really hard. And I think it’s [00:30:10] a false narrative. Like, I don’t think anyone has kind of worked out the perfect balance [00:30:15] between kids and, um, between kids and business.

Vanita Rattan: You definitely [00:30:20] sacrificing something. I couldn’t even have a nanny in the house, I think. I think that would even distract me. Like when I’m in, when I’m [00:30:25] deep work, I’m in deep work. I can’t, I can’t actually have even like a cleaner around or anyone. [00:30:30] So it’s amazing that you can do that. And then some people do it without a nanny and they just have the child and they’re looking [00:30:35] after the child while they’re doing their work. I have no idea how people do that. I think it’s incredible. [00:30:40] But I, I just we just couldn’t do that. It’s too hard.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so [00:30:45] I want to move on now because we’ve obviously talked about, um, how [00:30:50] it came along. So when it was the lip and everything and I want [00:30:55] to know something else. Have you always seen yourself as an entrepreneur?

Vanita Rattan: Definitely from 13 [00:31:00] years old. When I learnt about Richard Branson, I remember reading his autobiography and it [00:31:05] was such an eye opener because he was dyslexic and I knew he struggled at school and [00:31:10] if he could struggle at school and he became a billionaire, I could be a billionaire. Literally, [00:31:15] that’s how basic my thinking was. And to this day, that’s one of my core beliefs, [00:31:20] is he did it so I can do it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that so much because I always say, and this [00:31:25] is something that like differs between me and my husband is like, my husband is incredibly successful [00:31:30] working in a hedge fund, but he’s much more of like a realist, [00:31:35] you know, whereas I’m more of a fantasist. And I think that’s definitely like the ADHD. But I do [00:31:40] think that fantasists are the reason why they get so far, because they do believe the sky is the limit. [00:31:45] Yeah, but they believe the sky is the limit, like you said, like if you look at somebody and you’re like, but if they [00:31:50] can do it, why can’t I do it? And I often ask him, because the guy, his boss that owns the [00:31:55] hedge fund is obviously a billionaire. And I was like, can you ask him, how [00:32:00] do you become a billionaire? Like, how do you become a billionaire? And the interesting thing was, and [00:32:05] I have to admit, after the Epstein release files. I do [00:32:10] think there is an element of being unethical. I do think so now, and [00:32:15] I that’s the thing. And the thing is, is like, yes, even Richard Branson was in those files. This is why I’m saying [00:32:20] like, I do think the level of a multi-millionaire gigantic. The difference between that is like, [00:32:25] there must be an element of you being like, do you know what? I am going to sell a little bit of my soul in [00:32:30] whatever capacity to get to that next level?

Vanita Rattan: I think it’s audacity. I think that [00:32:35] the billionaires have a level of audacity that most of us are scared to feel. [00:32:40] We’re scared because a lot of us, we’ve all been institutionalised. Why is it that the [00:32:45] that these rebel billionaires become rebel billionaires? Right. They a lot of them didn’t do well at [00:32:50] school. A lot of them actually weren’t institutionalised.

Rhona Eskander: But with even Epstein, they don’t know how he made his [00:32:55] money. Like as in, it’s all still a bit of an enigma. And that whole.

Vanita Rattan: Thing makes me feel.

Rhona Eskander: Sick. But but [00:33:00] even with that, they’re like, he was a maths teacher and then he created this, you [00:33:05] know.

Payman Langroudi: Gigantic amounts of money coming in quickly. Something’s [00:33:10] going on, right? Something. Did you have you watched the.

Vanita Rattan: Netflix documentary on it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It [00:33:15] didn’t. It didn’t even touch, touch, touch the surface.

Rhona Eskander: That didn’t even touch the surface.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t [00:33:20] mention anything about like, intelligence or anything. But anyway, but my question is like what you said [00:33:25] about billionaires, either you are a complete genius and lucky and [00:33:30] all those things together here, which is very few people. Or there’s [00:33:35] an inheritance story, which is another or something’s going on, something’s [00:33:40] going on, you know that, you know, gigantic amounts of money don’t go billionaire is [00:33:45] totally different to.

Rhona Eskander: Multi-millionaire.

Payman Langroudi: Multi-millionaire.

Rhona Eskander: That’s what I.

Payman Langroudi: Said. And there’s an insatiable desire [00:33:50] to control.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And because I think it becomes about power as well. [00:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: You know, I think for me.

Vanita Rattan: Because of my upbringing, [00:34:00] I’ve my mission has always been for girls and for women empowering [00:34:05] girls and women. I’m really grateful that I’m an Indian girl in the UK, because [00:34:10] being an Indian girl means that I have the immigrant mindset. But number two, I’m not [00:34:15] in a patriarchal community.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And I imagine what Indian girl can do in this environment. [00:34:20] But imagine all those Indian girls who aren’t in this environment.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanita Rattan: So for me, like [00:34:25] money equals how many women can I help? For me, that’s what it really [00:34:30] comes down to because you can only spend so much, right? There’s only so much status. You can have.

Rhona Eskander: Freedom. I mean, for [00:34:35] me, like, you know, I watch something. There is a girl on Instagram. I’m sure you’ve seen [00:34:40] her and she follow her, but like she calls herself the frugal chick and she does all this stuff about like money. [00:34:45] And then she basically says like, here is how I actually ended up getting a lot of money. She’s like, sometimes you got [00:34:50] to look at as money as being neutral and not dirty and unethical. You know, that like level of money. And I was [00:34:55] like, that’s quite interesting because I think people are embarrassed to say, I like making a lot of [00:35:00] money or I want a lot of money. They feel like it’s almost like dirty like that association. But [00:35:05] there’s a lot of people that do.

Vanita Rattan: But I think that puts us in a very.

Rhona Eskander: Limited, more scarcity mindset. [00:35:10] But also the thing is, is that mostly I think people like money because of freedom, because that’s [00:35:15] what it is. It buys freedom.

Vanita Rattan: That’s it. That’s really key, right? Like, let’s be real. [00:35:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: For women, freedom is everything. We’ve for decades, for generations, [00:35:25] we’ve not had freedom that now I think girls are waking up to the idea that [00:35:30] they need to be able to earn their own freedom. Yeah. When you have money, no one can say anything to you. [00:35:35] Yeah, yeah, that’s what it is. Why would anyone think that’s dirty?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: I don’t understand that at [00:35:40] all.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, I mean, it’s important that you kind of you still man the opposite side. [00:35:45]

Vanita Rattan: Well tell me, tell me. Why is it.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Vanita Rattan: Tell me? Oh, I don’t think it’s dirty. I think it’s a good thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important you [00:35:50] understand the other side of one thing you don’t think about.

Vanita Rattan: Tell me what.

Payman Langroudi: You should tell me.

Rhona Eskander: He’s challenging [00:35:55] you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important.

Vanita Rattan: Why do they think that? Why?

Rhona Eskander: Why do people. Some people would think it is.

Vanita Rattan: I [00:36:00] actually think, um, I, I think it’s coming from an unhealthy [00:36:05] mindset and I think it’s a way to keep people down. I think it’s a mindset that’s been [00:36:10] spread in order to keep people where they should be, keep them in their boxes. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: Control.

Vanita Rattan: It’s a way of controlling classes. Way of controlling people is [00:36:20] by spreading. It’s a false lie. It’s a lie. What do you mean? Money [00:36:25] can’t be dirty. It’s just. It’s just a currency of time. It’s a currency of effort, and [00:36:30] it gives you freedom.

Payman Langroudi: But it could be that. And something intellectually honest as well. So can [00:36:35] you think of.

Vanita Rattan: What do you mean?

Rhona Eskander: I think, well, I know that some people say, for example, if [00:36:40] we look at billionaires and who we consider to be controlling the world that we live in. So whether it’s Mark Zuckerberg, [00:36:45] Bill gates and all these people, again, people that are heavily associated with something like [00:36:50] the Epstein files, people would consider that it’s largely unethical. People [00:36:55] that are controlling the world, that don’t really care about other human beings because it benefits [00:37:00] them. And that’s where the negative connotation comes. Okay.

Vanita Rattan: Okay. So imagine you became [00:37:05] a billionaire. You’re nothing like any of these.

Rhona Eskander: Totally, totally.

Vanita Rattan: Is is being is [00:37:10] being a billionaire bad or is it how you get there and what you do with your [00:37:15] with your power?

Rhona Eskander: I would say that what I told you, as I said, unfortunately, the [00:37:20] sad truth is, is that the way that most people get there isn’t a way that [00:37:25] is necessarily desired by the masses. You know, and I think that when you’re surprised [00:37:30] by someone like Richard Branson, who you think is a really philanthropic guy, and I’m not saying [00:37:35] he did anything wrong, like he didn’t do anything wrong. He was. I mean, yeah, but the fact is, is that he probably knew what [00:37:40] was going on and was okay with it. Right. And whatever the point is, is that I think [00:37:45] that that’s why people would have this. They’re like, these people are controlling the world. And also [00:37:50] they’re the ones and they’re the ones that are keeping other people more in their box. [00:37:55] So they could be billionaires. So they’re the ones. There’s other people thinking, hey, we’re actually not as rich [00:38:00] and not as successful because the billionaires don’t want us to be there.

Vanita Rattan: But then shouldn’t the shouldn’t the thinking be. [00:38:05] So I get that. But shouldn’t the thinking be, why can’t we all [00:38:10] strive for that? Like, instead of instead of like, that’s a bad person or that’s a bad person [00:38:15] because we can waste our energy thinking like that, or we can put our energy into ourselves [00:38:20] and go, do you know what? How did that person get there? And is that a way that I want to get there? What is a [00:38:25] strategy? What do they read? What did they do and how do I implement that in my life?

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s all about personal happiness. [00:38:30] Like for me, I’ve always been inspired by entrepreneurs. I’ve always been inspired. [00:38:35] Like you, I came from an immigrant family, but also like from an immigrant family that came to [00:38:40] the UK with not a lot. And for me, I was like, yes. And I looked up to those people at [00:38:45] school that lived in better houses and dressed better. But then I also have some friends. Their [00:38:50] values are different to mine, so they can’t understand why I want to be so successful [00:38:55] and why I want to make so much money.

Vanita Rattan: I think it’s like a safety net.

Rhona Eskander: They want that. They’re happy [00:39:00] in a life where, for example, they don’t work a lot and they get to spend time with their [00:39:05] family or like they can go on a couple of holidays and they’re genuinely happy with that. So I think [00:39:10] it all is about your personal preferences.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, I think it’s more than personal preferences. I think they haven’t seen [00:39:15] how bad it can get if you don’t have it. Yeah. And [00:39:20] they’re lucky. Honestly, I think it’s a privilege. If you can live like that and, and [00:39:25] not have to push yourself and you’re happy and like everything’s going well, it means you’ve had a [00:39:30] beautiful life. It means actually you haven’t seen as much pain. People have come from pain [00:39:35] and have seen you with nothing. They’ve got this thing in their belly like it’s a fire [00:39:40] and we don’t even like it. We don’t want this fire in our belly. Like even after you’ve got everything that you need, that fire doesn’t [00:39:45] go. Yeah. It’s a pain that you draw upon and it pushes you further [00:39:50] and further and further. So it’s a beautiful thing if you can be like that, right? Like, I’m so happy for [00:39:55] these people. They’ve had obviously had a beautiful like upbringings and childhoods and come from stability. [00:40:00] But if you’ve had if you’ve come from an immigrant, you know, backing [00:40:05] your mindset is going to be different. And it’s not no one’s good and no one’s bad and nothing’s right and [00:40:10] nothing’s wrong. It’s just the way it is. Do you think?

Rhona Eskander: I think, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Can I steal it then? Can [00:40:15] I say what what it might be? I’m not saying I believe you know, I’m a I have a company. [00:40:20] Right. Yeah. So I’m chasing.

Rhona Eskander: We all have companies.

Payman Langroudi: I’m. I’m chasing wealth, let’s say. [00:40:25] Yeah. But the problem with chasing wealth, what are the problems with number one, what you’re saying about, [00:40:30] you know, what should you be spending your time doing to get to the place you want to get to as fast as possible? Often [00:40:35] when wealth is the, the, the focus, you’re climbing up the wrong, wrong [00:40:40] ladder faster. Yeah. So it’s not just an efficiency game. It’s a question [00:40:45] of which ladder should I climb? Should I climb the one that gets me richest? Or should I climb the one that [00:40:50] gets me happiest? Or should I climb the one that gets other people happiest or whatever it is. So, so, [00:40:55] you know. And these successful people you’re talking about. Yeah. Outside of the, you know, the unethical [00:41:00] ones, often their pursuit is something else. Money is the result of that [00:41:05] pursuit, ideally.

Vanita Rattan: So for me, I can only talk about myself because I can’t talk about [00:41:10] others. For me, it just so happens the thing that I’m passionate about, which by the way, could have [00:41:15] fallen flat on my face, right? I’ve invested my whole life into skin of colour and easily. [00:41:20] It could have not have resonated. People might not have watched and people might not have cared. And I would have invested my whole life, my whole [00:41:25] savings, everything into this thing. It just so happened the thing that I’m passionate about, enough [00:41:30] people could see the benefit and enough people bought into my vision [00:41:35] to, to, to make all those three ladders align. But it might [00:41:40] not always be that your three ladders are aligned and you’re going to have to pick. So I fully understand what you’re saying. [00:41:45] And I understand that some people are going to pick different ladders for me. I’m just grateful that all three ladders aligned. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But there’s another dimension as well. You know, we’re all medically kind of you are [00:41:55] intensely trained. And, you know, what is it to be a professional? [00:42:00] Yeah. What is that?

Vanita Rattan: So for me, um, for me, being a professional means [00:42:05] you’ve done a certain level of education. You’ve passed certain exams that are international [00:42:10] standards. Um, and then you have a level of ethics. So [00:42:15] you. Hippocratic oath, Hippocratic oath, but also, and more than that, it’s a respect for your colleagues [00:42:20] and never doing anything to harm your profession, [00:42:25] harm your colleagues, um, but also holding each other to high standards. [00:42:30] So pushing boundaries, um, and sometimes disagreeing [00:42:35] with your colleagues in order to push boundaries, which I do quite a lot. Because guess [00:42:40] what? There’s only about 8% of, um, skin of colour images, [00:42:45] even in medical books. And my whole, for me, my whole research has been on skin of colour, [00:42:50] so I do tend to be in this field a lot. Um, but yeah, for me that’s what it means. [00:42:55] But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an important question, right? Insomuch as you’re the, you are a doctor brand. Yeah. [00:43:00] Yeah. You are a doctor brand. Yeah. I’m not a doctor brand. I mean, I happen to be a dentist. Yeah. [00:43:05] But I’m not using the fact that I’m a dentist to to sell anything. Yeah, that’s not what I’m selling through. [00:43:10] Um, if you’re a doctor brand and we’re saying being a professional is all things that you [00:43:15] said on top of that stuff, like ethical stuff like, um, what you do when [00:43:20] no one else is looking kind of as a dentist is massive, right? No one is looking at [00:43:25] what you’re really doing on top of maybe, you know, putting the patient’s interests before [00:43:30] your own. Yeah. Then you have to understand, when I say steel man, understand what [00:43:35] the critics are saying, the critics are saying, look, you’re using the doctor brand to make money. [00:43:40] The doctor brand also represents the patient’s interests. Before. Before yours. [00:43:45] Wait wait wait wait. Of course, of course. When you’re running a successful company like you are, you’re aligning [00:43:50] the patient’s best interests with your best interests. Of course. Yeah. But it’s important [00:43:55] in every situation. If you support Palestine over Israel, super important to know what the Israelis are thinking. [00:44:00]

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it like whatever it is.

Rhona Eskander: And I think there is something to be said for that because [00:44:05] I think it’s really important. And again, I’ll tell you this because I’ve been in the firing line of [00:44:10] this the first time I got asked. So as you know, I’m a massive contributor of ITV [00:44:15] this morning. I go on a lot, right, and love working with them. I got asked to be on another [00:44:20] TV channel, which I won’t name big big TV channel. The first time that I got [00:44:25] asked to be on I went the way that I would normally go. Went to hair and makeup. They do hair and [00:44:30] makeup and I went and I looked great. Then a lot of people DM’d me that [00:44:35] had watched it and were really angry. I went on, I did oral hygiene advice, [00:44:40] and the reason why they were angry is because apparently this institute shouldn’t look. [00:44:45] Shouldn’t use such glamorous looking people, and that the medical industry [00:44:50] has failed in the UK because we no longer represent the Florence [00:44:55] Nightingale type healthcare professional. So this was interesting [00:45:00] because I was like, I’m meant to look a certain way to make you feel more comfortable. [00:45:05]

Rhona Eskander: And I do think that there is this subconscious bias. Listen, I am glam. I’ve always [00:45:10] been glam. That’s me. I’m Middle Eastern. You know how it rolls as well. You know, with Middle Eastern being like [00:45:15] out there. But the fact is, is that he thinks that I’m more trustworthy and more believable [00:45:20] if I look like Florence Nightingale, who helped like war victims. Right. So I do [00:45:25] think and then he started berating me about, I don’t know, some person in my DMs [00:45:30] right then started berating me about why I don’t work on the NHS anymore. [00:45:35] And I do think, like what Payman was saying is that people think because we’re healthcare [00:45:40] professionals, there’s almost like a misalignment because you have to be so [00:45:45] indebted to the health care system that almost you shouldn’t [00:45:50] be worrying about things like money. I don’t agree with that because I have my own private practice and [00:45:55] I still have very high ethical and moral standards. But I understand what you’re [00:46:00] saying, that people do have this connotation of the way doctors and dentists should look like and behave.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:46:05] mean, the guy who DM’d you and said, that is a dick. I’m really sorry.

Vanita Rattan: You went through that. I think that’s just ridiculous. [00:46:10]

Payman Langroudi: He is a dick. But it’s important to understand why. What was the guy thinking? To [00:46:15] act on it and say, you should be like this. That makes him a bit of a.

Vanita Rattan: He might.

Payman Langroudi: Have a bit of a fool.

Vanita Rattan: Things [00:46:20] going on, I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t. Yeah, yeah. That too.

Rhona Eskander: I do think as well. And, you know, the thing is I did joke because [00:46:25] I did. You see my. So I put it on trial reels because I was really angry. I was in the I was in the rain [00:46:30] the other day going on the tube like really angry, like a little Grinch. Right. [00:46:35] And like, do you know about trial reels? So trial reels, you know, of course you can post a reel [00:46:40] on Instagram that you don’t show your normal audience. And if it does well to another audience, [00:46:45] they post it on your real grid. So I was there, pissed off, and on a whim. I was [00:46:50] just like, so if all the other dentists are taking private jets and I’m here on the tube [00:46:55] and it started to go viral and I was like, oh crap, you know? And the thing is, and then it posted [00:47:00] it on my real one. And I was like, really embarrassed all of a sudden.

Payman Langroudi: It was brilliant. I thought it was brilliant.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But [00:47:05] that was the point. Because also at the same time, I think that there is a difference between actual success and [00:47:10] what you’re projecting, because certain dentists that claim to be taking private jets [00:47:15] from one regional city to another regional city, it’s like, but what’s the point in that? Do [00:47:20] you know what I mean? You know, just be like a normal human. I feel like.

Payman Langroudi: The version of your brow lift [00:47:25] or whatever, you know, like it’s content as far as they’re concerned. It’s content.

Vanita Rattan: That’s content. Yeah. For me, it’s actually the other way. [00:47:30] So my followers know that we I’ve never actually, I don’t know if they know, hey guys, I don’t know if you know this. [00:47:35] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: We heard it first here. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: We’ve never accepted [00:47:40] um investment from any anyone. And we’re.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, let’s talk about that.

Vanita Rattan: Let’s talk about that. [00:47:45] We get offered it all the time. And I say no all the time. Um, because [00:47:50] a couple of reasons. Number one, it means I’m, I’m [00:47:55] very careful with every pound that we spend. Number two, it means that no [00:48:00] one has control over me. And so for me, money equals freedom. Yeah. And I make [00:48:05] some absurd decisions. I’ll give you an example. We we launched [00:48:10] the world’s first mineral sunscreen for the body. It was a [00:48:15] break even product of a hero product. Like imagine your hero product. It [00:48:20] makes no sense for you to make it three times the size at two [00:48:25] thirds of the cost, which is your break even price and sell it. It makes no financial [00:48:30] sense, but I know that my community needed it, and I’m the only one that had the formula, [00:48:35] and I’m the only one who’s going to go and do that. Whereas if I had investors, there’s no way I would have [00:48:40] been allowed to.

Payman Langroudi: I disagree with that, insomuch as my biggest regret is not taking [00:48:45] on investment. Oh, really? Really? And my and my excuses were all the same as yours. Tell [00:48:50] me. Yeah. I don’t want anyone to interfere. And there’s some things I do that make sense. We [00:48:55] have stupid parties with, you know that. We spend loads of money just having fun. Yeah. [00:49:00] Um. Same excuses. We’re in London. Yeah. The investment capital of the [00:49:05] world. Yeah. You could, if you got the right investor, the right investor didn’t interfere. [00:49:10] You go buy your three adjacent companies and, [00:49:15] you know, I can’t.

Vanita Rattan: Even deal with my own one company. Imagine three adjacent companies.

Payman Langroudi: My my point [00:49:20] is, my point is don’t, don’t don’t tell yourself the story of control [00:49:25] and la la la la la. If it was like that, there would be. There would be. Yeah, but there’s a [00:49:30] small downside of that. Yeah. But the upside of if I inject 50 million into the business. Yeah. [00:49:35]

Vanita Rattan: I just I don’t think it changed my business. That’s the thing. It’s like if you gave me ten.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t, then you’re not the right person [00:49:40] to take investment, but the right person like your your partner, let’s say just [00:49:45] for the sake of the argument, your husband. Yeah, yeah. If he made a little business plan, if [00:49:50] 50 million came in, he would do X, Y, and Z. I’m it’s a silly thing to say because no [00:49:55] one throws 50 million at you. At. You like that. Yeah, but we’re in London. We’re in the centre [00:50:00] of everything. You’re an amazing operator. Amazing operator. So you leveraged [00:50:05] you scalable. Yeah. Could be extraordinary. You could be like Glossier [00:50:10] or whatever it is. You know, I don’t know anything about skincare.

Vanita Rattan: I’ve thought about this and I just don’t know [00:50:15] if investment would even work for me. So for example, Sephora is where usually a lot of brands [00:50:20] like the dream is to get into Sephora, right? And you need, you need about 10 million, honestly, [00:50:25] before you even think about Sephora, because you need stock in every like you need end [00:50:30] caps cost money, everything costs money in Sephora. But if you look at the margins [00:50:35] of Sephora takes and then the cost of my products, I would be breaking even.

Rhona Eskander: Listen. [00:50:40]

Vanita Rattan: No matter how much investment you give me, it wouldn’t even make it decent.

Rhona Eskander: That [00:50:45] stuff is all branding exercise because obviously I’m a co-founder of parlour and we’re in the big all of the big retailers [00:50:50] Ocado, Sainsbury’s, boots. But the thing is, we don’t rely on that. Like getting [00:50:55] into the retailers for anybody has never been. And I’ll tell you, the girlfriend of mine that I told [00:51:00] you that has the jewellery brand. I said to her, what’s your biggest regret? She said to me, going [00:51:05] into Net-A-Porter, going into Liberty’s, going into Selfridges, she was like, [00:51:10] it absolutely slashed it. She was like, because they basically take everything and you make nothing. [00:51:15] Essentially, she’s like, yeah, sure. It put the brand out there. She’s like, but if I stayed as a brand that [00:51:20] was direct to consumer website, that’s where I was making the profit. [00:51:25] And then you start getting caught up, oh, but I’m in Net-A-Porter, I’m in this, I’m in that. Do you see what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: I had [00:51:30] a meeting with there was a very famous toothpaste. I’ll tell you once we switch off the.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Mike’s. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mike’s very famous toothpaste that came. It looked like it was doing so well. And it did do well. Yeah, [00:51:40] it was in every single supermarket in volume. You know, it was like they had whole shelves [00:51:45] had a meeting with the the number two there. I said, so how much money were you guys making [00:51:50] back then? And it was like, oh, £4 million or something like turning over £4 million. Yeah. And if you [00:51:55] weren’t.

Vanita Rattan: Turning.

Payman Langroudi: Over. Yeah. If you went into stores.

Vanita Rattan: By the way, they’re making nothing. Yeah. Because you’re [00:52:00] turning over 4 million. You’re making. Yeah, exactly. 50pa it depends.

Payman Langroudi: A [00:52:05] product depends on your situation. Right. But but but you’re right. Insomuch as they slashed [00:52:10] prices you know what boots is like. Buy two, get one free. You fund.

Vanita Rattan: It. Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. [00:52:15] You fund.

Payman Langroudi: It. Tesco said oh bring us a different skew that we can sell at, you know [00:52:20] the same price as Colgate or whatever. This guy wasn’t Colgate. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: Because you’re not as scalable. [00:52:25] Yeah. And especially with me I’ve put so many actives into my products. Yeah. I would be making a loss. [00:52:30]

Payman Langroudi: No of course, of course.

Vanita Rattan: But I feel like the worst because.

Payman Langroudi: He’s taken the product that started [00:52:35] out, by the way, in toothpaste. £12 is a lot for that. [00:52:40] It started out as a £12 toothpaste and it ended up as a £3 991.

Vanita Rattan: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness. And [00:52:45] my point is, even though it looked like it was everywhere and it was a success story, the [00:52:50] maximum he turned over was £4 million.

Vanita Rattan: So many businesses going under from Sephora right now like skin [00:52:55] of colour businesses in skincare. In my world, I just think, and they look like they’re doing so [00:53:00] well. They had investment they had in every magazine. Like, what more could you want? Right? [00:53:05]

Rhona Eskander: Can I ask you something as well? Do you think. Do you feel. Because obviously we’re a similar age. [00:53:10] The Eurocentric beauty standards, did it have a really negative impact on you [00:53:15] growing up?

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean? White skin.

Rhona Eskander: Like. Yeah, yeah. White skin, blue eyes, blonde [00:53:20] hair.

Vanita Rattan: So I went to, I went to one of the, an incredible school, one of the top schools in the country. [00:53:25] And it was everyone was, you know, what’s called a lay down holiday school for girls. [00:53:30] We were the fourth best in the country when we did GCSEs and A levels. Like really everyone [00:53:35] was Mensa students. Incredible. Incredible. School teachers were amazing and [00:53:40] I was one of the, I think 2 or 3 Indians in the year like everybody, and one black girl [00:53:45] who was my best friend, like literally everyone was Caucasian. Um, and I really struggled [00:53:50] at school on so many different fronts. I think that was one of the fronts. I also was like, [00:53:55] my body shape didn’t fit the white Caucasian body shape. Um, [00:54:00] my hair growth. Yeah. And then also had a very strict [00:54:05] upbringing, very different background, immigrant mentality. So very boarding school. [00:54:10] It wasn’t a boarding school. No, but I was quite isolated. I couldn’t really make friends because I had nothing [00:54:15] in common. Like the conversation was everything.

Rhona Eskander: I do think social media has been great for that because it’s the same like between [00:54:20] 16 to 18. I used to get scouted for modelling quite a lot, and then like the Caucasian girls [00:54:25] that I was living with, because I did in university were like, you need to lose weight again, like watching [00:54:30] America’s Next Top Model was so triggering for me. Now with the new lens, because [00:54:35] those beauty standards like I wasn’t Kate Moss, I wasn’t, you know what I mean? They’d always make me feel [00:54:40] really like they would call me the exotic one, which now I feel like is a little bit derogatory in a way, because [00:54:45] I’m like, well, just because I had tan skin and like Middle Eastern features. So I am grateful [00:54:50] for the boom in social media and also the massive appreciation for different cultures [00:54:55] and different types of beauty. And I even went to like Diwali with L’Oreal. And [00:55:00] even though I’m not Asian, but it was so nice to see like the celebration of women of different [00:55:05] skin tones at something like that. So I think it’s been a really amazing movement [00:55:10] and has obviously also benefited your brand in a way, because people have recognised that [00:55:15] their needs are going to be different from someone else that’s always been advertised for.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, I think [00:55:20] looking at my daughter now, she doesn’t have any of the same qualms that I had. Yeah, like [00:55:25] her mom is a skin of colour, like ambassador. Yeah. All she sees this kind of colour and she goes [00:55:30] to a beautiful, amazing school. But all the girls are also [00:55:35] Asian, so she doesn’t even like the thoughts that I would have.

Payman Langroudi: She doesn’t eat [00:55:40] generations different though. It’s totally different.

Vanita Rattan: It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Lucky. It’s a really good side to it, which.

Vanita Rattan: Is. [00:55:45]

Rhona Eskander: A good side. Are you using pronouns?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I don’t like pronouns.

Rhona Eskander: But are you using them now because [00:55:50] your kids use them? Sure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do they know my kids? My kids? My kids go [00:55:55] to French school. French school is very, very, um, conservative in that sense.

Rhona Eskander: I want to I want to ask [00:56:00] doctor V as well because we are running out of time. Can you believe it feels like it’s been five minutes.

Vanita Rattan: I feel like we just [00:56:05] started. I was just getting into my stride.

Rhona Eskander: My question is what’s your darkest moment [00:56:10] in business been?

Vanita Rattan: My darkest moment in oh gosh, there’s so many. [00:56:15] Where do I start? Um, I think should we talk about like, [00:56:20] like having children and.

Rhona Eskander: Doing it can be a case of what is your darkest moments? [00:56:25] Not in business and life. What has it been in life?

Vanita Rattan: I think probably [00:56:30] something I haven’t really spoken about. And that was having a miscarriage. And [00:56:35] that was after Sienna and before Josh and [00:56:40] it happened in clinic. So I remember it happening. I had a whole [00:56:45] list of patients that day, um, at the hypertension clinic. And you can’t cancel. [00:56:50] And there’s nothing I could do. Like whether I lie in bed at home or [00:56:55] I go to work. Like wasn’t going to make any difference. And so I remember just [00:57:00] sitting in the clinic chair and like, I had my sanitary towel, like multiple [00:57:05] and just having to just get through and everything’s cramping. And anyone that’s been through a miscarriage knows [00:57:10] how painful it is.

Payman Langroudi: You knew what was happening.

Vanita Rattan: I knew what was happening.

Rhona Eskander: And I think it’s really sad because [00:57:15] I’ve been very vocal in my first miscarriage. Uh, well, my miscarriage also [00:57:20] had happened. I didn’t know when it was going to happen. They knew what was going to happen within the week. And I actually went to go see my sister in [00:57:25] Paris. And I got really ill and I was vomiting and I went to A&E and they thought it was food poisoning. [00:57:30] But in hindsight, I really don’t think it was because me and my sister ate exactly the same thing. And then two days in clinic and [00:57:35] I remember having to get through the consultation. And I think that’s because, and I honestly said it was [00:57:40] one of the worst experiences of my entire life. Like, I felt like I was dying and I had to get an Uber [00:57:45] home. And I remember trying to grab my phone in the bathroom to call my partner because I was [00:57:50] like, oh my God, this is unbearable. And no one talks about it. And it’s like, and it’s like we’re [00:57:55] expected to just get on with it. So I totally relate to that.

Vanita Rattan: I don’t think people realise 1 in 4 pregnancies [00:58:00] lead to miscarriage, 1 in 4. That means that if you get pregnant 3 [00:58:05] or 4 times like you’re, most women at some point are likely [00:58:10] to have a miscarriage.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How far gone were you before?

Vanita Rattan: So it was within the first six weeks. [00:58:15] So it was like pain, but it was like managed like I could [00:58:20] do it by myself. It wasn’t like I had to go to hospital. Um. Um.

Payman Langroudi: How old were.

Vanita Rattan: You? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:58:25] was like 7 or 8 weeks and I was also I didn’t have to go to hospital, but I was, I thought I was [00:58:30] dying. That’s how I felt like I, I called my dad up because he’s a gynaecologist. And I was like, do I need to call an ambulance? [00:58:35] It was that bad. And it went on for like hours. I don’t know how long yours went or the pain was terrible.

Vanita Rattan: It was like the whole day. [00:58:40] And I was like talking to patients. I remember them talking to me about the pigmentation and I’m like, blacking out. Yeah, I remember sweating. [00:58:45] And just in hindsight, it’s actually so silly that I didn’t cancel and that I didn’t just stay [00:58:50] in bed. Yeah. It’s actually like, what is wrong with me that I, but.

Rhona Eskander: I think that is the medical part of us. [00:58:55] Yeah, but no, but I think it’s the medical part. I think lots of doctors and dentists struggle to cancel on their patients. [00:59:00] I feel like I cannot let patients down even now. I can’t I the [00:59:05] day I went into an emergency c section, I’d done a full day at work. No. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, let me ask you that. [00:59:10] When you say people don’t talk about it, is it that people don’t like your friends, don’t [00:59:15] tell you if they’ve had a miscarriage or.

Rhona Eskander: No, I think we don’t talk.

Payman Langroudi: About how.

Rhona Eskander: Difficult.

Payman Langroudi: The actual the.

Rhona Eskander: Actual [00:59:20] feeling. I think also it’s the expectations that women are expected to give birth. [00:59:25] Women are expected to fall pregnant, like just deal with it. And all the complications around getting pregnant, [00:59:30] staying pregnant and giving birth are so highly complicated and even the hormonal [00:59:35] aspect of it. So I did want to ask you as well, like, did you have any kind of hormonal [00:59:40] challenges running the business with your kids, anything like that?

Vanita Rattan: I wouldn’t [00:59:45] even know. Like, you know, it’s a bit of a blur. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Vanita Rattan: Do you know what I [00:59:50] mean? You’re like at war.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: You’ve got to get things done. And but I feel like I’ve attacked my whole [00:59:55] life. Like it’s a war. Like everything is like we need to get this done, need to get this thing done. It’s, um, [01:00:00] I haven’t really approached anything relaxed and calm and worrying [01:00:05] about what’s happening in my body. It’s very much like we need to get X, Y, and z done now for the first time [01:00:10] at 42, my body is saying, no, you’re going to listen to me. And the palpitations was like the [01:00:15] first sign for me that you wanted.

Rhona Eskander: To slow.

Vanita Rattan: Down, have to listen to your body and you can’t run [01:00:20] your life like you did in your 20s and your 30s. You cannot be like this in your 40s. Yeah, [01:00:25] you have to slow down. You have to listen to your body. You have to do what’s good for you. I wouldn’t even like the question [01:00:30] you’re asking about hormones. I wouldn’t even know. Honestly, it was just a just a blur.

Rhona Eskander: You were just on autopilot.

Vanita Rattan: Autopilot. [01:00:35] It was like, get through it, get through it, get through it. Like next day, next day, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know guys? Do you know people, [01:00:40] friends of yours who’ve had multiple miscarriages?

Rhona Eskander: Yes I do. And they say that it’s like so [01:00:45] traumatic. And you can see that it’s drained them because you know what? It’s like your hormones take a while to [01:00:50] kind of like gain and you do so psychologically. Yeah. Psychologically, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just sometimes sometimes [01:00:55] it’s, you know, late term. Yeah. Yeah. Giving birth to.

Rhona Eskander: It. I mean, I’ve, I had a patient of mine, she [01:01:00] gave birth to two twins that weren’t alive. Like they basically told her the pregnancy became [01:01:05] non-viable and she was like 7 or 8 months pregnant. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like going [01:01:10] through a birth.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So, you.

Vanita Rattan: Know, work helped. So I went back to work, I think when, [01:01:15] when my kids were a month old, like straight away. Yeah. And I remember my dad telling me [01:01:20] I was getting really depressed and low at home.

Rhona Eskander: And this was with ace, right?

Vanita Rattan: With, um, so [01:01:25] with both. So I went back to the clinic. Yeah. So, um, even with, yeah, even [01:01:30] the, uh, the clinics were starting with Sienna. So I remember feeling low and my dad saying, [01:01:35] you, you are, this is not for you. Like you can’t be this like stay at home mum like you [01:01:40] are. I was getting so depressed. And again, I don’t think this is normal, Rona. I don’t know if other women [01:01:45] get so low.

Rhona Eskander: Like I find I find it hard. Like I couldn’t not. I’m constantly working. Yeah. [01:01:50] And people ask me all the time, but I have I’ve taken that position. I do think there’s a difference between [01:01:55] treating actual patients and then running a business. And I’ve now gone into more of [01:02:00] running the business mode, whereas like I focus on my patients for two days clinically, and now [01:02:05] I’m micromanaging the business because now I have a clear idea of where I want the business to go and what [01:02:10] I want to do.

Payman Langroudi: You must resonate with that idea of working in it or working on it, right? [01:02:15]

Vanita Rattan: Uh, yes. So when I was working in it, like with the clinics, um, it [01:02:20] was like it, it’s very hard to strategize. It’s very [01:02:25] hard. It’s a two, two different brains and you it’s.

Rhona Eskander: And working with patients.

Vanita Rattan: Working with patients, [01:02:30] you’re in it, right. You can’t. Now my whole world is working on it. I don’t work [01:02:35] in it anymore. Because if you think like, for me to go to the lab and make something that takes me two [01:02:40] hours, and I can do that once a month, and that’s a lot. Like, I’ve got so many formulas that we haven’t [01:02:45] even ever made. I’m like, make my own foundation just for myself. Like there’s so many formulas that [01:02:50] I have that never even came to market. That is the easy bit. Then after that, [01:02:55] for me, really, it’s like the media company part of it, which is like making as much content as possible.

Rhona Eskander: Like TikTok, [01:03:00] YouTube, Instagram.

Vanita Rattan: Everything. So that’s a whole world. I’ve got two different teams that are filming [01:03:05] for that. Then it’s the launching products. So launching products, [01:03:10] we’ve got a contract manufacturer who also fulfils our products. So that bit’s [01:03:15] also outsourced. Um, and now it’s the B2B, so now it’s, we’re launching the world’s first facial for [01:03:20] skin of colour. Right. How are we going to do this? We’re going. Yes. I can’t wait for you to get it [01:03:25] done. Um, but yeah, so this is now the next part of the business is working on [01:03:30] the business. How do we get into 1000 clinics. That’s my aim to make sure that we have the [01:03:35] best, safest facial for brown and black skin in the UK and us.

Rhona Eskander: And you’re going to basically work with [01:03:40] clinics like aesthetic clinics and things like that. Yes. So I am so excited. I feel like [01:03:45] we need like version two. I’m not even done here, you know, but we have run out [01:03:50] of time.

Payman Langroudi: Let me ask one final question.

Rhona Eskander: Go on then. Go on.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the the downside [01:03:55] of being you.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good question. Is it that you can’t switch off [01:04:00] and you can’t relax and this sort of thing.

Vanita Rattan: Yes. So I’m getting coached at the moment. I’m getting [01:04:05] coaching to figure out what parts of my personality I’m missing. And I think the biggest [01:04:10] part that’s missing right now is the caregiver part to myself. I’ve always looked at caregiving [01:04:15] as a weakness, and actually anyone that’s been caring to themselves or caring to others, I’ve. I’ve [01:04:20] not looked at that in a positive light. I’ve. I’ve always been. Everything’s mission and everything [01:04:25] is a war.

Rhona Eskander: Did your parents do that to you?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. They they actually regret it now. Yeah. [01:04:30] Now they’re like, we’re so sorry we turned you into the person that you are today. And I’m like, there’s [01:04:35] nothing I could do with that information. No.

Rhona Eskander: You’re amazing. You are.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. This [01:04:40] came up in my other podcast. Do you know about, you know about Eureka, right?

Vanita Rattan: Eureka.

Payman Langroudi: Archimedes [01:04:45] principle. Yes. Yes. Yes. Liquid displacement. Yeah. And he he his. He couldn’t figure it out. [01:04:50] Whether this this crown is gold. Yeah. And then his wife said, look, take a break. Take [01:04:55] a bath. Yeah. And then he dropped it in the bath. The water displaced. He ran through the city [01:05:00] naked saying Eureka. Yeah. The point of the story is the the wife saying, [01:05:05] take a break.

Vanita Rattan: That’s my husband always telling me to take a break.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but, you know, just [01:05:10] frame it for yourself in that strategic sense.

Rhona Eskander: I know, but I.

Payman Langroudi: Will be the breakthrough.

Rhona Eskander: I’ll tell [01:05:15] you one strategic sense I do have.

Payman Langroudi: You’re so you’re so driven by that strategic sense.

Rhona Eskander: You’re right. I do have [01:05:20] a friend that’s I have lots of friends that are entrepreneurs. Payman is always enamoured when I bring all my guests on [01:05:25] here that I choose. But I have, I do have, I do have another friend of mine runs an incredible [01:05:30] company. Uh, she, she had a department store that was inherited from her mum and whatever. And [01:05:35] she stepped back from that when her mum passed away. And she started this company where she detoxes [01:05:40] wardrobes and she does it for very high net worth individuals. Rearranges the wardrobes. And then she also then [01:05:45] will take the stuff that they don’t want anymore, and then also like resale them. And she’s become incredibly [01:05:50] popular because it’s something that people need, like busy people like us and it’s a massive detox. And [01:05:55] she said she’s always busy and she’s finding it difficult to scale at the moment. And I said to her, what do you want to do? And she’s like, I’m going [01:06:00] to go to Ibiza for a month. I’ve never done it. And I said, why? And she goes, I need to be bored to get creative again [01:06:05] and come up with solutions. She’s like, because I am so busy every day, I’ve not got anything. [01:06:10] She was like, you know, like, I need to start getting creative again. She’s like, I need to be [01:06:15] still and do nothing. And I was like, there is something in that. And especially with the way that we are on social media, [01:06:20] you feel like if you’re not posting every second, every day, you’re missing out on [01:06:25] the Allgau and all this stuff and you’ll be forgotten. But I think the internet can do without you for a few days. It’ll be.

Vanita Rattan: Fine. I [01:06:30] actually have the best ideas on holiday. Yeah, always.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: That’s why you never stop working, even on holiday. [01:06:35] Yeah. Let’s do this. And my husband’s like, will you just stop? Just stop. Yeah [01:06:40] yeah yeah.

Rhona Eskander: No, I love that. Thank you so much doctor V thank you. And for those of you that want to [01:06:45] follow her she is on social media. Her account is brilliant doctor Vanita [01:06:50] rattan. Yeah. Uh her products are amazing. I use them during pregnancy because I obviously couldn’t find [01:06:55] anything in pregnancy that was good for my skin. And I’m not saying that because I’ve been paid or anything, [01:07:00] it’s because I genuinely love the product. And I think she is an absolute powerhouse and boss. We probably will need [01:07:05] to have her on again. Thank you, thank you, thank.

{ALL}: You so much.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how [00:00:10] to assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Ali [00:00:50] Hashemi Zadeh onto the podcast. Ali, he’s a friend of mine who I’ve met across [00:00:55] different sort of young dentist stuff, even might have even been when you were a student [00:01:00] stuff. Yeah, because you’re only 27 now. Yeah. But I always see sometimes [00:01:05] when you go, you go to a wedding or something, and I don’t know, in a wedding you’ve got on one [00:01:10] side, you’ve got your, your side of the family and, you know, the other person’s. And I always think [00:01:15] about that when I look on the other side and I look at humans on the other side, look at faces. And sometimes you can [00:01:20] just make out who’s amazing and who’s who’s who’s bitter by looking [00:01:25] at someone. And with you. I just thought from the moment I saw you, the first time I saw you, I thought, this kid’s amazing. And [00:01:30] then you turned out to be amazing. You’ve got a lovely smile on your face and always insightful. [00:01:35] So lovely to have you on the pod. And well done for coming all the way from Newcastle today.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Thanks very [00:01:40] much for having me. I’ve, I’ve sort of listened to this podcast since, since I was a student. So, so it’s [00:01:45] really exciting to be here. Yeah for sure. I mean, I think the first time we met was my first ever be [00:01:50] a CD Young Dentist day. I remember really like very vividly.

Payman Langroudi: Where was there.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Somewhere [00:01:55] in London. Yeah. I can’t remember exactly, exactly where it was, especially like, go downstairs and it was a [00:02:00] big hole. Um, yeah, I think that was the first time we met. And then there was the enlightened stuff afterwards [00:02:05] as well. And then off the back of that, it’s been, I feel like numerous times a year we crossed [00:02:10] paths all the time. Yeah. It’s usually at a party of sorts. But, but [00:02:15] but yeah, we usually cross paths.

Payman Langroudi: So you, you, you know, um, but by the [00:02:20] way, we’re going to be crossing paths again at the Ministry of Sound. Yeah. Of course.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I’m looking forward to it [00:02:25] for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re, you’re a young dentist who, um, for me based [00:02:30] on you’re only 27 doing a lot, doing a lot. You, [00:02:35] you’re working up in private practice in Newcastle and Sunderland. [00:02:40] Yeah. And, uh, kind of focussed in on endo um [00:02:45] as a sort of dentist with a special interest. Yeah. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um so [00:02:50] yeah, I mean, I think it’s, I sort of fell into it. Uh, I’ve, I’ve always liked [00:02:55] tender. Since uni it’s always been quite interesting. I think the intricate problem solving [00:03:00] kind of tickles a part of my brain. But going [00:03:05] into that sort of pathway of doing general dentistry with loads of endo alongside it kind of fell [00:03:10] into my lap. It was just fortunate timing. Um, and then I ran with it, you know, it worked [00:03:15] and I enjoyed it. So I’ve just kind of kept going to be honest. So it [00:03:20] was like a fortunate accident, I guess, as a way to put it. So, um, yeah, I mean, [00:03:25] I can’t complain at all. Both my practices are great. Get on with everyone really well. And [00:03:30] the opportunity I’ve had to do everything, you know, all sorts of treatment is [00:03:35] for my age as well. It’s been it’s been so much fun. You know, I can’t fault it [00:03:40] at all.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, I’m learning while you go at [00:03:45] your stage in your career, it’s inevitable, right? Because you start with a [00:03:50] low base. So you’re learning all the time. Yeah. Yeah. But Definitely is. One of [00:03:55] the keys to being a happy dentist is to keep on improving and [00:04:00] many don’t. Many get to a certain stage and [00:04:05] and sort of stay at that stage. And then many do. And from my perspective, [00:04:10] I see people come from whenever when I saw you must have been a final year or something.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. [00:04:15] Just graduated.

Payman Langroudi: I see people, you know, final year just graduated, just finished PhD, whatever it is. [00:04:20] And then, you know, some people know very little. And then in my arc of, [00:04:25] uh, work, you know, five years is nothing. It’s five years later, you [00:04:30] see them being super good at some stuff and, you know, and it’s a really lovely thing to see, number [00:04:35] one. But my, my general advice is keep that curiosity for [00:04:40] the job itself going continuously. And, and you must [00:04:45] see it in your bosses, right. You work at Ken Harris’s place.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like their, [00:04:50] their The undying attention to detail, right? Like the constant [00:04:55] improvement is, is like so inspiring. And something I noticed, um, [00:05:00] was that the last BACD conference last year, um, I was sat in the second row [00:05:05] and the row in front of me was all the fellows. So you got like Ken and all the other guys [00:05:10] who’ve been, you know, there towards the end of their career, they’ve, they’ve peaked, they’ve done everything. There’s [00:05:15] some of the best clinicians. And you look around and middle of the lecture, you look around and [00:05:20] the only people taking notes was that group of people. And everyone else is on [00:05:25] the phone, like scrolling or paying attention, not paying attention and just, just listening, like me included. [00:05:30] I was just listening, trying to take it all in. But all of those guys were just sat there scribbling notes after notes, after [00:05:35] notes. That’s amazing. It’s like this dedication to always learning and always just being better and better and better. [00:05:40] It’s yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I know, I know he was he, [00:05:45] there’s a, there was a practice. Mike Wyse’s practice. Okay. He he was the undisputed [00:05:50] best dentist Britain has ever produced, right? Everyone agreed at the time he was just another level. [00:05:55] Yeah, he’s written the book failures. Failures in the Restored dentition. Quintessence, a brilliant, [00:06:00] brilliant book. But he was just undisputed number one. Yeah. And he sold his practice [00:06:05] to an oyster. Yeah. So. And, you know, he’s a very accomplished dentist. You know, he [00:06:10] was clinical lead at one of the big corporates. And then he does a full mouth dentistry on [00:06:15] international clients all the time. He came to many smile makeover. And I’ve never [00:06:20] seen anyone take as much notice as this guy. And he’s like, no, I don’t know, 58 [00:06:25] or something. Yeah. Still like so many notes. I saw [00:06:30] him halfway through the day on the first day, and he had maybe 12 pages [00:06:35] of notes and he’s like.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You know, you’re like, you’re, you’re learning never ends, [00:06:40] right. And you know, especially no matter what the topic is like, he’s probably in sensational [00:06:45] doing composite bonding or, you know, composite veneers or whatever. But there’s still going to be loads of tips [00:06:50] and tricks that he’s going to learn along the way, whether that’s even someone who’s like just graduated or someone [00:06:55] who’s towards the end of their career, there’s also something you can learn, but I guess that’s a.

Payman Langroudi: So can I [00:07:00] run something by you? Right. Were you at all involved in the a, c, d as far as the [00:07:05] you know how it worked. The conference. You had something to do with it, didn’t you?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Not not a whole lot, to be honest. [00:07:10] Um on the day. Yes. A lot of helping out where I could, you know, put myself. [00:07:15] But amongst the organising of the actual event less so, um, hopefully in the next [00:07:20] few years I’ll be more involved in that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: But so the reason I ask is that, you know, when [00:07:25] I qualified and when you qualify like 20, 30 years apart from each other, everything’s [00:07:30] changed in dentistry so much, but events haven’t, events haven’t moved on. [00:07:35] Yeah, yeah. Events have been basically the same. The not much change. Yeah. Guy standing [00:07:40] at the top talking for an hour. Mhm. And then, you know, we go to events [00:07:45] and every time I go to an event, I do pick up 1 or 2 things. Yeah. And that question [00:07:50] of is it possible to distil those 1 or 2 things into much shorter presentations, [00:07:55] Ted style, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting. Ted is [00:08:00] 17 minutes. Yeah. And 17 minutes is not long enough to go deep into [00:08:05] a subject. Yeah. Yeah. And yet we’ve all listened to loads of Ted talks and [00:08:10] big subjects have been discussed. I don’t know which ones you think of. I [00:08:15] think it’s the Simon Sinek, the concentric circles or whatever. I saw one on education. There’s [00:08:20] so many. And 17 minutes is a long time for the audience, but a tiny amount [00:08:25] of time for the lecturer. Yeah. And I was thinking this notion of like, this thing we’re doing at ministry, [00:08:30] like we got 30 speakers. Yeah. Okay. And let’s say each speaker’s got two nuggets [00:08:35] in their, in their head, their donation to the world of dentistry. I [00:08:40] think for enlightened, I have two nuggets in my head. Yeah. We don’t talk [00:08:45] about that. So but if you come out of that event, 30 speakers, let’s say you manage to catch 15 of [00:08:50] them and 15 of them give you the two nuggets, because the whole point of the event [00:08:55] was to distil the the signal from the noise. Yeah. Yeah. Then [00:09:00] you walk out of that event with 30 nuggets. Yeah. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting [00:09:05] idea.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Smart. Yeah. It’s a smart way of doing it as well because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult as the lecturer. I don’t know [00:09:10] if you’ve ever given a lecture.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I have less so clinical based. But yeah, it’s tricky. It’s also tricky knowing what people [00:09:15] want to want to learn. Right. The, I guess the beauty in having long form content is [00:09:20] people can can decide what is their nugget. Because what I’ll find is a nugget [00:09:25] will be different to yours, right? Yeah. So if, if you’re you as a lecturer, go up with a 20 minute lecture and [00:09:30] you’re like, okay, I’m dead set on these are the two most important things part of the lecture that I think people will [00:09:35] want to learn. Yeah. You might find that 80% of the crowd actually want [00:09:40] certain other things. Yeah. There’s there’s pros and cons to both, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, I get that. But isn’t [00:09:45] it an interesting notion? Right. Even even at your stage in your career? Yeah. There are two things [00:09:50] that are Ali things. Yeah. By the way, you sometimes you have to look deep [00:09:55] to think about what are those two things? Yeah. But there are two things. Yeah. If I gave [00:10:00] you the challenge, I said, look for the next week. Just sit back and really think about your two contributions [00:10:05] to the profession so far. Yeah. It could even be one of them. Could be. Listen, [00:10:10] do more self-development podcasts. Yeah. Or the full distillation of all the self-development [00:10:15] podcasts that you’ve done is for me. I don’t know, planning ahead is a great idea. Goals are a great [00:10:20] idea. Whatever it is. Yeah. But you know, we all have two that we, we think are our, are [00:10:25] our we’ve got five or 6 or 1 or nothing, you know, that we think are our contribution to [00:10:30] the profession. It’s an interesting notion.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I mean, it’s going to be interesting to see what it what it comes [00:10:35] out like on the day, right? When you’ve got all these different speakers with different nuggets to come across. Yeah. [00:10:40] It’ll be interesting when you ask people afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Of the 30 speakers, how much [00:10:45] did you get? Probably loads, you know. But it would be interesting when you speak to the speakers, how they found [00:10:50] the process of distilling all the content into such short form.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:10:55] but how do you feel it’s a 27 year old with a TikTok, um, attention span, whatever. I know this is a cliche. [00:11:00] Yeah. How do you feel about what I’m saying about Dental events? Do they need a shake up or not? I [00:11:05] think, am I wrong about it? Like there’s that.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I think for sure. I mean, you [00:11:10] know, you speak to younger people in general. Our attention spans are pretty.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:11:15]

Ali Hashemizadeh: But what do you think. Terrible. But so I think I think it’s difficult. It’s [00:11:20] difficult until you experience it. But it would make sense because our [00:11:25] attention span is so small. You know, we’re so used to short form content. It’s rare that people [00:11:30] sit and watch a movie without going on their phones and whatnot. So like it it does [00:11:35] make sense that it would work and it would work pretty well. Um, the, I guess The hard [00:11:40] part is when you bring into into presentations, when it comes to like clinical aspects, you know, workflows through [00:11:45] cases, you might just be a case of one case, one case, you know, one big case, the one, and [00:11:50] then the one big case and then going, okay, this is the, this is the key part here, this, [00:11:55] this section. Now this is what I want you guys to take home. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, the other thing we’re doing is treatment planning [00:12:00] forums, right. As a young dentist, you must come across whether you’ve got Ken Harris to go to with your treatment [00:12:05] plans. Right. But, but what I’m saying is, you know, you’ve got a case, right? Which way should it go? Yeah. [00:12:10] And we know we all know three dentists for treatment plans, right. So we’re trying to do that. Like one guy, Chris Hall, will [00:12:15] come up and say this is the case. Then these three experts will say what they think it should happen. Then [00:12:20] the audience votes with, you know, mentimeter vote for which and then Chris Hall says what [00:12:25] he did. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Because, yeah, it shows you that there’s [00:12:30] no right way of doing it, you know? Yeah. But ultimately, I think for us as young dentists, the hardest part [00:12:35] is the right treatment plan. Yeah. Because, you know, the more you learn, the more you [00:12:40] realise you don’t know and the harder these cases get. Yeah. Um, and then you’ll go to different mentors [00:12:45] and be like, okay, well, how do I approach this case in a, B, C? They’ll give, like you said, like four different treatment plans. [00:12:50] But I guess the beauty in that will show that there isn’t a right way. It’s just personal [00:12:55] preference. You know, Chris, I was going to do it totally differently to someone else, but the outcome is going to be as, [00:13:00] as I can imagine, amazing. You know.

Payman Langroudi: So or not, right?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Because [00:13:05] or potentially not.

Payman Langroudi: But by the way, another thing I wanted to do, but I haven’t figured it out in [00:13:10] time, I think is failures. Yeah. I want the whole event called [00:13:15] failures. Yeah. People keep telling me, no, no, no, people won’t won’t do that. And I just can’t believe it. I [00:13:20] just think, why wouldn’t you? I love like talking about your failures like a the [00:13:25] best way to learn it says like, I learned this because of this failure. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:30] And you must in your short career, you must remember a couple of things.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You.

Payman Langroudi: Learned [00:13:35] because something failed.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I mean, it’s the only way you really learn.

Payman Langroudi: You really is.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, [00:13:40] yeah. Because it’s the ones that it’s like anyone, you know, all the cases [00:13:45] that have been successful. Yeah. Don’t really stay in your mind that much. But the case is that week, [00:13:50] week to week are difficult or not going to plan or always in the back of your head, you’re [00:13:55] always thinking about them. Those are the ones that stand out, and those are the ones you’re going to learn from the most. So yeah, definitely. [00:14:00] I think an event on failures would only work, I think.

Payman Langroudi: You think. But no, the people tell me, speakers [00:14:05] tell me that other speakers won’t share their failures. I just think that’s not kind of the case.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It comes down [00:14:10] to who you pick. You know, some speakers. Yeah, some speakers are probably going to be a bit more, um. [00:14:15]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know. It’s a, it’s a weird.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, man. Like why wouldn’t you, why wouldn’t you share? [00:14:20] We’ve all got them. Why wouldn’t you share them? But yeah, so have you been, you seem [00:14:25] to me right now to be super sort of focussed and super optimistic about work. [00:14:30] And you’re really enjoying your work. Have you always been that cat or was there like an [00:14:35] inflection point?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you more suited to work than study? For instance, [00:14:40] I was.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, I think with work, I’ve [00:14:45] always had a pretty optimistic, I think I’m quite an optimistic person in general, but my [00:14:50] approach to work has always been trying to make it as enjoyable, as fun as possible. Because like, I guess my fear [00:14:55] would be to wake, you know, it’s like Sunday night and you’ve got the absolute fear of waking up like that [00:15:00] is something I want to avoid in totality. So if I can make work, fun, work, [00:15:05] make it enjoyable, then that’s like the ultimate goal. So the benefit now [00:15:10] is I can pick and choose what I do and what I don’t do. So I’ve got that that’s, you know, really [00:15:15] fortunate. So, you know, waking up on a Monday morning is easy. You know, I enjoy it. But now, [00:15:20] I wouldn’t say it’s always been like that. When I first, first qualified PhD, [00:15:25] it was great. I really, I had a really good time. But then when I went into my first job, [00:15:30] so I was a mixed practice associate not long in London. In London, not long [00:15:35] into the year, I think three months in maybe. I had a [00:15:40] complaint that totally like.

Payman Langroudi: Knocked.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You rocked my world.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:15:45] was no.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It was honestly, it wasn’t even it honestly was a [00:15:50] mixture of like poor communication, me trying to be as fast as I [00:15:55] could because that’s what I thought I had to do. Yeah, you get that, you know, you get that pushed on you a lot where [00:16:00] you need to work fast to earn a living. No one’s going to hire slow Dental, especially on [00:16:05] the NHS. And so I had this like playing in the back of my head, like, I need to get fast. I need to get faster. I’ve always [00:16:10] been a slow dancer’s, I’ve not been particularly quick and.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t even want to know. Exact [00:16:15] situation, but I want to know what about the complaint hurts the most? [00:16:20] So is it what what I think intent? [00:16:25]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: They question your intent.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It was the [00:16:30] the complaint came down to. They were just like they felt [00:16:35] wronged. I guess like the outcome of the treatment wasn’t what they wanted. And they wanted some, [00:16:40] I guess, like payment for what happened. But the worst, the worst part of [00:16:45] the complaint wasn’t that because that got handled really easily. It was super easy. Like I spoke to indemnity and they sorted. It was great. But [00:16:50] the harder part was they didn’t complain to the practice they complained to [00:16:55] like the NHS straight. Yeah. So that opened a whole can of worms [00:17:00] that made things way more complicated.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So much more dramatic. Um, [00:17:05] and because there was the element of me trying to rush through treatment, then like note taking wasn’t [00:17:10] as good as it could have been. And so slowly sort of holes were picked in the process. [00:17:15] And that’s where it became this whole like way bigger beast that was not [00:17:20] easy to manage. So yeah, that was definitely the roughest period was, [00:17:25] you know, it was a couple of months it took for all to just like calm down. And you have [00:17:30] that like meeting and you go through everything that’s happened. You discuss what you’ve done to improve. You [00:17:35] know, you’ve spent loads of time on CPD watching the videos and stuff, writing reflections. And ultimately [00:17:40] they’re like, yeah, there’s no ill intent. Nothing’s been done. Nothing wrong has actually happened. [00:17:45] It’s just poor management. It’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: What was the emotion going through you like fear. [00:17:50] Oh, shame.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Shame fear, definitely. Because, you [00:17:55] know, you’re always thinking of like, am I going to lose my job? I’m going to lose my licence. Am I going to do I need to [00:18:00] think of something else to do? What on earth am I going to do as a, as a one year, one year in and [00:18:05] I can’t be a dentist anymore. What on earth do I do? Yeah. So. And you, you sort of you [00:18:10] make it so much bigger in your head and it gets bigger and bigger and becomes this whole big thing. And, um, [00:18:15] yeah, shame. Like you’re just dreading the outcome. You’ve no idea what [00:18:20] to expect that that was really tough. And I guess it, it makes you question [00:18:25] how good you are. Yeah. And whether you should actually be practising, [00:18:30] you know, you you really quickly think because I’m actually not a. Am I a good [00:18:35] dentist? You know, I’m actually bad at this.

Payman Langroudi: But also also we tied up with our identity so much because [00:18:40] you spent so much of your life doing this and dreaming about it. And since you were 14, you. [00:18:45]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Know, at that time I was a dentist, you know, like it made up who I was. So to question that [00:18:50] and think, am I actually am I good at it? Or should I even be doing it was yeah, that [00:18:55] was it was really tough.

Payman Langroudi: And what helped?

Ali Hashemizadeh: So the typical stuff, you know, like [00:19:00] family, friends you could speak to. But it made me really change [00:19:05] my perspective the way I like look at things. And I, I really had to take [00:19:10] a step back and think, okay, well, there’s nothing I can do in this situation. I can’t change what’s [00:19:15] happening. All I can do is work through what I’ve been told to do my indemnity, do the bits, [00:19:20] and hopefully it will be fine, but there is no point in me worrying, [00:19:25] you know, because I can’t change. All I’m going to do is not sleep. So [00:19:30] I may as well just take a step back and accept whatever happens, happens. Hope for the best, do what [00:19:35] I can and then just leave it.

Payman Langroudi: So what would you say? Like, I mean, [00:19:40] I know other young dentists, this exact same thing has happened to them and they quit. Quit dentistry. Mhm. [00:19:45] What would you say is like your trait that like manages to take a negative, [00:19:50] like take a lemon and turn it into lemonade and that positive outlook? [00:19:55]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, I think, I think it comes from like just years and years of spending time on like [00:20:00] self development, self help books, you know, podcasts, [00:20:05] books, all that kind of stuff is what I spent a lot of uni like totally engaged in. So [00:20:10] I think it was always in the back of my head that perspective change. It’s just I didn’t have anything to, [00:20:15] to switch it on to when this happened. Then I really saw a change in the way I saw everything. [00:20:20] So, you know, I assign less of my identity to dentistry now. You know, [00:20:25] I, I love it, but if something goes wrong on Tuesday [00:20:30] and I get home, it’s like it never happened. Like it stays at work because [00:20:35] it’s it’s work. It’s not me. I’m not that clinical decision or whatever happens, you know, but [00:20:40] that took a while. And I think that the experience I went through [00:20:45] so early on in my career was actually a really good thing. I’m quite [00:20:50] thankful it happened. I’m thankful it went well, but I’m thankful it happened because it changed the way [00:20:55] I see dentistry. It changed the way I, I do everything really, but it was [00:21:00] it was good because then it really was the first step in sort of igniting the [00:21:05] push to away from the health service and going in towards, towards private [00:21:10] dentistry, because then I realised that time constraints and all, [00:21:15] all of the stuff that comes with it just wasn’t going to work for me. So, so I’ve initiated that change. [00:21:20] So that was also a positive that came out of it, really.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You know.

Payman Langroudi: And to be [00:21:25] to be in private at your stage, it’s hard. It’s hard. Not not many [00:21:30] do it. Yeah, I did it, but not many. I took a pay cut and changed towns [00:21:35] and all of that. Um, but, but also, you know, like the learning [00:21:40] curve of private dentistry itself, right? It’s a whole other [00:21:45] way of working, you know, with positives and negatives.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. It’s huge. Like my [00:21:50] transition was less than a year after [00:21:55] PhD. And when I first moved to the practice, one of the practices I work in now, um, [00:22:00] I moved because I liked a lot. I really liked endo and they [00:22:05] were looking for someone who could do a lot of the root canal treatment at the practice. So I [00:22:10] arrived being the endo guy.

Payman Langroudi: This isn’t Ken Harris’s [00:22:15] practice.

Ali Hashemizadeh: This is my other practice, which is it’s it’s in Darlington in Middleton, Saint George. So it’s like a little town [00:22:20] outside of Darlington. So just south.

Payman Langroudi: Which was the name of the practice.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Middleton. Saint George Dental. Yeah. [00:22:25] Okay. Um, and, you know, I was I was lucky a friend of mine, Harry Craig, you know, [00:22:30] everyone seems to know him. Uh, he put in a good word with the boss, and he took a [00:22:35] punt on me, and it’s worked so far. It’s been great. And I loved being [00:22:40] given this sort of role of, okay, you’re you’re taking on the endodontic [00:22:45] burden of the practice. You’re the guy. So that learning curve was ginormous. [00:22:50] You know, it was it was huge because going from doing.

Payman Langroudi: Were you already [00:22:55] a little bit into endo or.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, already. Like it was a passion. I really enjoyed it. But I wasn’t doing [00:23:00] I was doing a lot of primary treatment, you know, on the NHS, occasional [00:23:05] private work, but I just understood it quite well, I think. And then [00:23:10] with a portfolio I showed him, my now principal was like, well, yeah, I think this [00:23:15] will work. And I was really lucky. You know, he’s given me such a such a big [00:23:20] area to, to grow into. You know, there wasn’t strict like everything [00:23:25] needs to be perfect. You need to bring all this material. There was nothing like that. It was like, what material [00:23:30] do you need? I’ll get it in for you. What what instruments do you need? I’ll get it in for you. Um, here [00:23:35] are patients for you to work on, you know, crack on. And, well, that that process has been [00:23:40] like my ability, my experience has skyrocketed just [00:23:45] because someone took, I guess took a punt on me. So it’s worked, you know, and I’ve been doing [00:23:50] treatments I would never have thought. I mean, we’ve done a few apicectomy together. And if you were [00:23:55] to have asked me during PhD if I would have done anything like that within two years [00:24:00] or something, there’d be no chance I would have thought that.

Payman Langroudi: But I think it’s amazing. I think it’s [00:24:05] amazing for one thing. And there’s a brilliant, brilliant thing. You don’t have to sell anything to anyone. [00:24:10] No. Um, it can be very calm work if you know what you’re doing. [00:24:15]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, on the other hand, if you’re doing [00:24:20] things like apicectomy and you’re happy with flaps.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:24:25] kind of flaps are kind of the thing that keeps a lot of dentists away from implants. Yeah. Yeah. And so [00:24:30] at your stage, you might want to consider, I’d say those two things. If you are happy with things like [00:24:35] if you like blood.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I’m still I’m still learning that part. I’m still getting used to surgery. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: You’re nowhere. You’re nowhere. Yeah. You’re very, very, very young. You’ve done a lot considering how [00:24:45] young you are. Um, I mean, it depends. I would say, like, if [00:24:50] it was myself. I don’t like blood. Yeah. Yeah. So I would jump deep into [00:24:55] endo. Deep, deep, deep, deep as deep as possible.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. Even even to the point of getting another qualification. [00:25:00] It’s there’s not enough endodontists in the country. Yeah. And they do well. [00:25:05] And it’s a lovely job. It’s a lovely, lovely job. It depends though doesn’t it. Depends. [00:25:10] How are you thinking about it?

Ali Hashemizadeh: This this is.

Payman Langroudi: Like if you did endo all day, every day, would you be happy. Dentist? [00:25:15]

Ali Hashemizadeh: I think so, I think. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s quite nice to have a mix throughout [00:25:20] the day. You know, back to back to back. And it can be draining. You know once [00:25:25] you get the rubber dam on everything’s quite calm. But there’s still.

Payman Langroudi: But then there’s, there’s, there’s. [00:25:30]

Ali Hashemizadeh: There’s so much problem solving going on constantly in your head. Um, and [00:25:35] as soon as something starts going a bit off course, it’s like, okay, how on earth, how on earth do I get this back? [00:25:40] Um, but yeah, there’s always like a tug of war in your head, especially as a young dentist when you’ve got a particular [00:25:45] interest is, do I go all in now and just hit [00:25:50] the ground running, or do I keep my options really broad and open and just see where I [00:25:55] end up? And it’s so it’s so hard. I don’t think I’ll ever come to a decision without [00:26:00] being like, forced into it because the idea of being a really good general dentist is [00:26:05] great. You know, if you were to buy a practice, you’re that reliable principal. You can do a bit of everything. Um, [00:26:10] but at the same time, if you know you’re good at something and you know you like it. Why not just go [00:26:15] head first and just do? In my case, do loads and loads of it and just just do [00:26:20] endo. I don’t know, it’s a really tough decision. I can’t make up my mind at [00:26:25] all.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s so hard.

Payman Langroudi: I think in these situations often it makes sense just to make [00:26:30] up your mind.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Not even not even think about it. Just make up your mind and jump in and go. Um, [00:26:35] on the other hand, you know, you’re young enough to, you could do nothing for [00:26:40] five years.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. Sit on your hands. Yeah. And at the end of all of that, you’ll [00:26:45] be 32. Mhm.

Ali Hashemizadeh: And still time.

Payman Langroudi: You could do whatever you want. You [00:26:50] know what I mean? Yeah. The big the big disease of the 20s is impatience. Mhm. It [00:26:55] really is. I remember I was impatient, you know, it started enlightened because of it. [00:27:00] Yeah. Yeah. Um, but don’t worry about the wrong decision. Yeah. [00:27:05] You can just reverse the decision if you have to. It’s I remember when I was like giving up dentistry finally, [00:27:10] you know, I’d gone five days a week, four days a week, three days a week, two days. One [00:27:15] day, one day for about five years. And then I just didn’t [00:27:20] want it to stop, and I couldn’t. I couldn’t get myself to stop. I kind of needed permission [00:27:25] to stop.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Well, it’s because you worked so hard to get to [00:27:30] that point.

Payman Langroudi: But then Prav told me, you know, Prav Prav told me, listen, stop. If you want to go back, [00:27:35] go back. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You don’t think [00:27:40] the door closes? But it can just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, you take a two week holiday, you come back a bit rusty.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. [00:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: I took a five year holiday.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That definitely felt rusty that first.

Payman Langroudi: Id [00:27:50] block. That first ID block when I came back [00:27:55] was tough. Really nervous. Patient. Yeah. And because I was taking care of [00:28:00] my wife’s patients. Yeah. She’s really into nervous patients. Yeah. Right. And he goes, the only reason [00:28:05] I’m coming in is because you’re her her husband. And she would have told me. Told you all about [00:28:10] me. And I was like, actually, you know, so [00:28:15] so he could hardly walk in the room. And it was my first one for five years. Yeah. [00:28:20] It was a moment. Nerve wracking. I came home with back ache that day. The first time you [00:28:25] forget about those things. Yeah. So you qualified in Newcastle, but you grew up in [00:28:30] Aberdeen. Mhm. How did an Iranian kid end up in Aberdeen? Is your dad in oil? [00:28:35]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Dad’s in oil. Yeah, dad’s an oil. So dad, um, moved [00:28:40] here when he was quite young then, like, did his university degree. [00:28:45] Um, did his PhD.

Payman Langroudi: Chemical engineer.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Mechanical engineer.

Payman Langroudi: A mechanical.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Engineer. Yeah. And then [00:28:50] moved around a little bit and then ultimately found a job in Aberdeen and settled there. So then I was [00:28:55] born a year later and then they’ve stayed there since. It’s a great place. [00:29:00] It’s honestly amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been there.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I’ve been there. Yeah, it’s just a bit grey. That’s grey [00:29:05] and cold is the main complaint. But but yeah, no, I mean, I don’t think I’d move back [00:29:10] to be honest, but it’s, uh, it’s interesting. There’s a huge Iranian community there, massive [00:29:15] because of oil and gas. So, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Is that the.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Reason? Yeah, yeah. So like my parents have got, [00:29:20] I think my parents probably have a busier social life than I do. You know, they’re always out, always doing stuff [00:29:25] with.

Payman Langroudi: Their group of buddies.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, or when I was younger, you know, we’d go to [00:29:30] like dinner parties and stuff and you’re talking like 60, 70 people are all crammed into a house and [00:29:35] it’s just packed full of Iranians just having a great time. So it was a lovely environment to grow [00:29:40] up in because.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t realise. People don’t generally realise that Aberdeen is the oil and gas capital [00:29:45] of the UK, but it is 100%.

Ali Hashemizadeh: For me it was all I was raised around. Like [00:29:50] all, most of my friends are in oil and gas. I wanted to be an engineer to begin with, you know, I didn’t want to be a dentist. [00:29:55] I didn’t want to do healthcare. But, um, I guess here we are. Here we are not [00:30:00] an engineer.

Payman Langroudi: I kind of do hear your Scottish twinge there. Now, at the beginning I said, I [00:30:05] can’t hear it, but now I can kind of hear.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Some people pick it up really quickly. Some patients pick it up like straight away and [00:30:10] some and some don’t. Some think I’m like, from here from London. Um, so it’s just [00:30:15] yeah, it’s just depends.

Payman Langroudi: I went to Aberdeen about ten years ago and I saw the, the [00:30:20] one thing that had changed at that point in the UK was you could get great coffee, great Thai [00:30:25] food, great stuff everywhere. Before that, like maybe 20 years ago, if you [00:30:30] went to Aberdeen to try and find a great coffee, there wasn’t even in London. There wasn’t much. There was no [00:30:35] yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But that’s something that’s moved on in the UK now. You can get [00:30:40] great everything everywhere now, which is really.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Everything at your fingertips.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Which means you can live anywhere. [00:30:45] Really?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then why Newcastle?

Ali Hashemizadeh: So [00:30:50] I guess the journey to Newcastle is quite.

Payman Langroudi: Well. What kind of kid were you? What kind of kid were you?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um [00:30:55] to begin with. Quite, you know, like your general boy, you know, just [00:31:00] like messing around and things. But not long into school, I kind of realise [00:31:05] that, you know, hard work pays off. And I think I saw that a lot in my parents and my sister [00:31:10] primarily. She was studying pharmacy at the time, and I would see [00:31:15] her like revise all day. She’d sit at the desk for hours and hours and hours, [00:31:20] and then I’d go sit there for like an hour and think, that’s probably enough. And I’d look at [00:31:25] her and think, okay, maybe I should do some more. And quite young, that whole idea of hard [00:31:30] work, you know, it’s like typical immigrant story, right? You know, hard work pays off eventually. Um, [00:31:35] so yeah, really quickly then develop that, that sort of mindset of just like, okay, I need to work hard. [00:31:40] I need to work hard. And definitely came from my parents a lot. You know, a lot of pressure [00:31:45] is not quite the right word, but a lot of encouragement to work hard and achieve something [00:31:50] that you can proud of at the end. Um, so that’s where I wanted to be an engineer to begin with. [00:31:55] And my parents were like, well, you’re, you know, you’re terrible at maths, so maybe, maybe don’t [00:32:00] do this. Do something else. And it came.

Payman Langroudi: Surprising how much math there is in engineering math? I didn’t realise just [00:32:05] too much. My son’s an engineering right now. My God, there’s loads of homework as well. Man, it’s a difficult [00:32:10] degree.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I’m so happy I didn’t do it. I’m so happy I listened to their advice.

Payman Langroudi: But my dentistry. [00:32:15]

Ali Hashemizadeh: It was it was a toss up between medicine, dentistry and pharmacy. Um, medicine [00:32:20] and did some work experience at a hospital and I hated it. I really didn’t like it. So left the [00:32:25] other two. Um, I was working in a pharmacy since I was about 15 or 16 because my sister did. So [00:32:30] I just kind of followed in her footsteps and did some work experience in a dental practice. [00:32:35] I was like, yeah, I was pretty sold. It was quite fun. And then applied. [00:32:40] Didn’t get in the first time. So I applied to a Scottish unis didn’t get in. And I [00:32:45] think at that point I was like, okay, well, the universe has decided for me, I’m not going to be a dentist. I got [00:32:50] into pharmacy. I’ll just be a pharmacist. This is great. Like, I’m very happy with this and started studying, really [00:32:55] enjoyed it, made really good friends. And my mum was like, let’s reapply. Just [00:33:00] apply one more time and see. And I was really against it. I was dead set on I [00:33:05] think it was the idea of being, uh, the idea of failing again, I was yeah, the [00:33:10] idea of rejection.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I really didn’t want to experience it again. So I was like, okay, no, um, I’m not going to apply again. [00:33:15] And she drove with my dad from Aberdeen to Glasgow, picked me up and drove me to Inverness [00:33:20] in the same day to sit my UK cat again whilst I was at university. [00:33:25] But the only place I could apply without leaving pharmacy was Newcastle. [00:33:30] So I applied to Newcastle um and didn’t get in again. So [00:33:35] after that I was, I was like I’m done. No more of this. Like that is the end. I’m not going to be a dentist. [00:33:40] And then I got a phone call in summer. Uh, I was just at home for a summer break and pick [00:33:45] it up. It was Newcastle Dental School. Like, we’ve got space for you through clearing. Do you want [00:33:50] to take it? And I was like, wow, like earth shattering. You know, it was like the best feeling ever. So [00:33:55] I was like, yeah, absolutely. Like I ran through to my mom’s room. I was like, mum.

Payman Langroudi: Those Iranian mums, [00:34:00] man. They’re tough.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Like I went through and I was like, mum, I got.

Payman Langroudi: She was right there.

Ali Hashemizadeh: She was always [00:34:05] right. And she like, burst into tears. Yeah, they’re always right. I’ll never tell her. I’ll never [00:34:10] tell her she’s always right. But they seem to be right all the time. So yeah, it was [00:34:15] a it was a long process getting into dentistry. Um, but it’s difficult. Like when you start, when [00:34:20] you start it with that, like fear of rejection because you’ve been rejected a few times, [00:34:25] then you go into university.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such a, so hard to get in. So getting my daughters [00:34:30] going for it now, which is 16. But you know, the idea that what if she doesn’t get in, what happens [00:34:35] next? You know that.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So you put all your eggs in one basket as well, you know, and then you don’t really know where you [00:34:40] go from there. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about Newcastle. Did you know Newcastle? [00:34:45]

Ali Hashemizadeh: No, I did not want to go to Newcastle. Oh really? No no no. When I came from interview, I [00:34:50] was in like a rotten mood. I was like, this is the worst place ever. I’m not coming here. And then [00:34:55] when I got, when I got in, I was like, I can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a cool town, man.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s honestly [00:35:00] the best city ever. It’s great. It’s got everything you need. It’s brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Good people, good people. I like [00:35:05] the people.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Everyone’s just so lovely, you know? The patients are lovely. People are lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s [00:35:10] a total. It’s a totally different working environment to what I experienced here. And just in general, [00:35:15] the people are just so different. It’s a great city.

Payman Langroudi: So which student were you.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Uh, to [00:35:20] begin with? Really? I worked really hard because [00:35:25] it was.

Payman Langroudi: What.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Happened? Yeah. Because I was like, I can’t fail. And now I’ve made it like, I just [00:35:30] need to get through. And then the first exam we saw, it was, um, I think it was like a, it was, it didn’t [00:35:35] really mean anything. It was like a, just a, you know, the first test, just to see how you get on. And I didn’t pass [00:35:40] and I was like, oh, like here, here we go. Like, this is, this is the beginning of the end. This [00:35:45] is really bad. Yeah. Um, but after a while, I learned, I really learned the way I [00:35:50] revise, like the way I learn. And once I picked that up, so once [00:35:55] I picked that up, then I didn’t really mind. Like then the whole the environment of [00:36:00] the environment of university changed and it became a lot more relaxed, less [00:36:05] worried about revising all the time and really embrace like the social aspect. So like [00:36:10] the first like six months was really intense.

Payman Langroudi: And that that self-awareness [00:36:15] piece. Yeah. It’s so interesting because it’s quite hard to teach [00:36:20] it. But I think you develop self-awareness as you go. [00:36:25] And like, for instance, I’m a bit of a like a procrastinator type. So knowing [00:36:30] that you are means you can have like a tactic. [00:36:35]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: For like for the first 38 [00:36:40] years of my life, I wasn’t aware of it properly. But now I’ve got a tactic, [00:36:45] you know, if like, if something’s happening in 60 days time, I pretend it’s actually 30 days time. Yeah. And it’s [00:36:50] like you.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Only learn that through experience, right? So So once I picked that up, then [00:36:55] I knew, okay, this is how I revise. This is the time frame. I need to revise it. And then I didn’t really [00:37:00] need.

Payman Langroudi: To worry as in general. I mean, were you a party animal guy at one point or did you not do that? Did you do sports? [00:37:05]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like did you pick it up quite quickly? Dentistry, the clinical side.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um, [00:37:10] I don’t think I was like particularly like talented clinically. Um, I’d [00:37:15] say I was pretty like bang average when it came to clinical itself. Um, socially, I [00:37:20] think we spent a lot of time going like the dental hospital and the dental, the dental [00:37:25] school and Newcastle had a really good social aspect. You know, a dental SoC was incredible. [00:37:30] It’s like, it’s definitely the best dent SoC in the UK. Not a non-biased opinion, [00:37:35] but so, you know, you’d be going out all the time with people in every year. So you’d socialise [00:37:40] amongst years a lot. And because the cohort is quite small, it’s like 70 odd people per year. [00:37:45] You really became friends with, you know, if you’re in first year, you had friends in fifth year and you [00:37:50] get really close across across years, which is so good. But I think naturally when you’re in [00:37:55] Newcastle you end up going out a little bit more than other places because it’s just the type of city it [00:38:00] is.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. It’s like it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Fun.

Ali Hashemizadeh: City. It’s well known for it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:38:05] But so is Manchester. So it’s Liverpool. So there’s so many places. Yeah. [00:38:10] Um okay. So then your first [00:38:15] job you decided to come to London?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. It was like it’s always been a dream to work in London since [00:38:20] I.

Payman Langroudi: Was that the idea?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bright lights, big city.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Since I was a kid, I was. I’ve always been obsessed [00:38:25] with working and living in London. My sister moved out not long before I did. So [00:38:30] she loved it. I was like, well, I’m gonna love it too. Did my foundation year here, [00:38:35] which was good. You know, I got a lot of experience. Funnily enough, my s at the time was big [00:38:40] into Indo, so hence I really enjoy it now too.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so is S the [00:38:45] direct boss or is that the boss of the boss?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Your direct.

Payman Langroudi: Boss?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Boss? Yeah. Like your trainer.

Payman Langroudi: Your trainer?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah. [00:38:50] So my trainer was really big into Endo. So then I ended up doing what’s.

Payman Langroudi: The new name for the the TPD. [00:38:55] Tpd.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Tpd. Tpd yeah. What was it before?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:39:00] can’t even remember. I can’t even remember. Tpd so S is the guy [00:39:05] in the practice.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: He’s the guy in the practice. Yeah. Sorry I keep forgetting.

Ali Hashemizadeh: And then like the [00:39:10] other one like.

Payman Langroudi: The higher up.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah yeah. Okay. Cool. Um and, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Did you find [00:39:15] it difficult? You said you did. You didn’t like the job? The mixed job. Yeah, yeah. I found it really hard going from [00:39:20] 50 to 50 plus one.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s like a whole different step because [00:39:25] the when you’re an PhD, you’ve got all the time in the world to do whatever you want. There’s no rule the rule. But [00:39:30] like, you know, you’re, you’re kind of like a baby. And then you go to mixed practice or your feet plus one and [00:39:35] you’re sort of on your own. Yeah, there’s a lot more. I actually really enjoyed the practice. The people in the [00:39:40] practice are great. My principal there is like one of the best principal I’ve ever had. He [00:39:45] was so supportive.

Payman Langroudi: Um, shut him out.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Uh, Rishi Nagaria. It’s such [00:39:50] a great guy. Um, but the, I [00:39:55] guess what I was doing clinically just wasn’t fulfilling. You know, I just didn’t enjoy that part of it that much. [00:40:00] So I really had to like figure out a plan to get from where I, from [00:40:05] where I was to where I wanted to be so.

Payman Langroudi: And so outside of the job, did you find [00:40:10] living in London not as fun as you expected it to be?

Ali Hashemizadeh: No, I think it was totally [00:40:15] different to what I expected. Um, I think also it didn’t help, you know, you’re [00:40:20] you you come there and your salary is not particularly big and it’s an expensive city to [00:40:25] live in. So in your head you sort of expected to be, you know, you come here on the weekend and you do everything. [00:40:30] You see everything you do as much as you can. But when you live here, it’s a totally different city. [00:40:35] Um, and I think I, what I didn’t like was being so far away from like the [00:40:40] outdoors, you know, like wildlife and stuff. So Newcastle is great. You’ve got country parks all over. [00:40:45] You’re close to Scotland. It’s like the perfect balance for me. Um, so London, [00:40:50] although I’m here like all the time, it just wasn’t the place for me.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do in the outdoors?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Cycle ending cycle [00:40:55] run cycling, run camp, hike. Like anything.

Payman Langroudi: Anything outside you’re doing [00:41:00] that common? Yeah, commonly.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Yeah. Like me and a group of our friends are doing a Ironman [00:41:05] 70.3 in a couple of months and, um. Oh, wow. But like that, [00:41:10] I don’t think I would have ever signed up for something like that if I lived here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Because there, I can [00:41:15] just, I don’t know, it’s just access to the outdoors is so [00:41:20] easy, so convenient. It’s so nice.

Payman Langroudi: So I used to, I used to be in Cardiff for [00:41:25] uni and there was a, there’s a, there’s a thing about a town that [00:41:30] size, I think Cardiff and Newcastle probably Newcastle’s a little bit bigger, I don’t know. But. But a [00:41:35] town that kind of size is, it’s large enough right, that massive things can [00:41:40] happen. You know massive band will come. Yeah. Whatever. Coldplay playing [00:41:45] Cardiff, but it’s also small enough that you bump into people [00:41:50] all the time in the street, and even people you don’t like. You don’t know them, [00:41:55] but you keep seeing them again and again. Yeah, people like that. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I think it’s so easy. I think London [00:42:00] can be quite an isolating city. Yeah. You know, it can be quite lonely and it’s quite hard to, like, break into a group [00:42:05] of friends here if you don’t know anyone. Yeah. Whereas places like Newcastle, Cardiff was about, I think it’d be really. It’s [00:42:10] really easy to go if you don’t know anyone there to break in and find find like [00:42:15] your place, find your people there. It’s so much easier.

Payman Langroudi: But bearing in mind you did have five years to get to know everyone. [00:42:20]

Ali Hashemizadeh: You know, it made it so much. They made that transition way easier. You know, the move back was convenient because [00:42:25] also loads of friends stayed after uni, so I didn’t need to do that. Um, so I didn’t have that [00:42:30] whole that period of like, I don’t know anyone here, but I’m pretty sure I’m pretty certain [00:42:35] that the transition there would be easier than it would be in London.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. I could have lived [00:42:40] in Cardiff, I could have, yeah. And when you think about the kind of towns that you could live [00:42:45] in. Yeah. Not many like I mean, I guess because we know these towns. Yeah. But like, when [00:42:50] you think about it, what comes to mind? Like if, let’s say if I said move. Mhm. Where would you move [00:42:55] to?

Ali Hashemizadeh: I think somewhere like Edinburgh, I wouldn’t mind [00:43:00] living in Edinburgh. Manchester, I don’t know too well, but strikes me as somewhere I would like to live. [00:43:05] So, you know, Manchester is so close to the lakes. So you’ve got the convenience of proximity [00:43:10] to lakes. Close enough closer, I guess, than I am now. Edinburgh [00:43:15] is the same as close to the Highlands, so places like that I would, I would like um living [00:43:20] in Glasgow. Glasgow is an amazing city, I loved it. It’s, it’s like a.

Payman Langroudi: People are amazing Glasgow.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. [00:43:25] You know Glasgow is really similar to Newcastle in my head.

Payman Langroudi: Did you study in Glasgow for pharmacy?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, I did [00:43:30] a year there. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m still friends with loads of internationally.

Payman Langroudi: Like have you been to Canada? [00:43:35]

Ali Hashemizadeh: I’ve not been to Canada. No, no no, I’ve always wanted to though. I’ve got a cousin who lives out there and it [00:43:40] looks.

Payman Langroudi: I live in.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Canada. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I live in Canada. You would. It’s like. It’s like America with, like, cooler [00:43:45] people. Kind of cuter people. Yeah. Um, South Africa, [00:43:50] everyone bangs on about crime and all that, but I didn’t notice anything, but. But I love that country, man. [00:43:55]

Ali Hashemizadeh: I’m going to this year. So I’ve never been. Yeah. I’ve never been.

Payman Langroudi: Before.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I’m [00:44:00] looking forward to. I’ve not been to Australia. That’s that’s like Australia is like the the place that all UK [00:44:05] dentists move to. If they’re moving, they’re moving there.

[BOTH]: It’s just such lovely. It’s so far away.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve not [00:44:10] been I’ve not been. So maybe if you go. But you know, like these sort of English speaking countries. [00:44:15]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I guess if you spoke another language, maybe if [00:44:20] you spoke French, maybe you. Guadeloupe.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Where [00:44:25] else would you would you would you move to like the Middle East?

Payman Langroudi: My, my [00:44:30] business partner just moved to Dubai. Um, and he was [00:44:35] enjoying it before the war. Mhm. He was enjoying it. Um, I live [00:44:40] in Dubai. If just war to one side. I live in Dubai. If it was on a limited [00:44:45] time basis. I kind of don’t want to die in Dubai. Yeah. Okay. [00:44:50]

Ali Hashemizadeh: I see that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I would. I mean, Iranians love to hate on Dubai [00:44:55] somehow, man. And I don’t share that. I mean, I think I think it’s a great place.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. We’ve got loads of family [00:45:00] in Dubai and they love it. I, I think a lot of people in the UK also hate Dubai [00:45:05] as, as, as a place. But I would live there short term as well. Like I wouldn’t live there long term, [00:45:10] but I could definitely see like, yeah, I could see myself there at some point. But [00:45:15] if I wasn’t doing dentistry, I think working as a dentist, a whole different kettle of fish.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:45:20] would you classify yourself? Like, I don’t mean I don’t mean sort of externally. You [00:45:25] could call yourself a British Iranian or whatever, but is there like, do you think of yourself [00:45:30] as Scottish?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, I do like my, I guess [00:45:35] my, my identity is very Scottish, Iranian.

Payman Langroudi: Scottish, Iranian Scottish Gas thing. Yeah, because. [00:45:40]

Ali Hashemizadeh: That’s all I’ve been raised around. You know, my friends from home have always been [00:45:45] Scottish, you know, especially in Aberdeen. There’s not that diverse of a place. [00:45:50] So I’ve only been exposed to Scottish and Iranian at home. Um [00:45:55] yeah definitely Scottish, Iranian you know know know.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of a Geordie. [00:46:00]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Know Geordie.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Scottish with a sprinkle of Geordie. Now it’s probably the best way to put it. [00:46:05]

Payman Langroudi: So on this pod we like to talk about mistakes. Is [00:46:10] yours going to be that one or do you have another mistake. We can talk about clinical error. Have you got an Indo mistake? [00:46:15] That’d be nice.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um, yeah. I mean, there’s been plenty of times where [00:46:20] I’ve struggled and I’ve had to refer on or we’ve just accepted that it’s, [00:46:25] you know, stopped there and accepted where we are.

Payman Langroudi: But have you got [00:46:30] better at being able to predict.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, way better.

Payman Langroudi: Give me some like top tips. How?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Well [00:46:35] the biggest change I found has been, um, cbct has [00:46:40] been the, the biggest change because there’s so many times you look at a case and you have, you don’t know if there’s [00:46:45] going to be an MM2 there potentially. You don’t know if it’s curved. You don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Can you always see it on CBC?

Ali Hashemizadeh: You can’t [00:46:50] always see it, but there’s enough signs. There’s enough signs to indicate there is an MM2 or there probably will [00:46:55] be one. But yeah, a lot of times you can see if it’s there or not.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s what, what else apart [00:47:00] from the MM2, what else does it show you that the overall anatomy. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So the anatomy curvatures does [00:47:05] it have something like a C shape molar like a lower seven often has like a C shape. [00:47:10] So it’s like a broad um pulp chamber. So something like that. You need to approach [00:47:15] it with a different set. Yeah. You know, you need to look at a different way of operating it. Um, [00:47:20] but if you didn’t know that until you’ve opened it up, then you’re like, okay, now I need to go and get that material. What if [00:47:25] I don’t have that material? Or, um, so that’s been the biggest game changer because you go into [00:47:30] the case with a lot of predictability and you know what to expect, You know, if it’s got [00:47:35] like a really like a really strong curve, let’s say on the canal, you [00:47:40] can, you know, where that starts, you can measure it. So you can approach the [00:47:45] case appropriately. Whereas before you kind of just aimlessly put your files in and hope for the best. And that’s [00:47:50] when you get mistakes. That’s when you get ledges and perforations and stuff. But the other, the [00:47:55] other biggest tip I got was from a mentor and he told me to use like [00:48:00] safe ended files. So files that don’t cut on the tip.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So when [00:48:05] you’re scouting to get to the apex, it’s like totally game changing because it’s only going to follow [00:48:10] the anatomy of the canal. Sure, you need to do a bit of cutting and shaping to allow that to [00:48:15] happen, but whereas before you’re going straight in with a K file and you risk ledging [00:48:20] once you’ve ledged, it’s so hard to bypass it, you can avoid that whole [00:48:25] headache of just using the appropriate files. But I guess all these types, all these [00:48:30] things you only learn from mistakes, you know, I’ve alleged so many canals, [00:48:35] and that’s when I was like, there must be a better way. Other than maybe [00:48:40] I’m just bad at this, but there must be a way of not doing this. And that’s when I got to. Okay, these [00:48:45] are the files you need to try out, and it’s made my life so much easier.

Payman Langroudi: Did you render [00:48:50] as well?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Some. Not loads. I’ve just not come across that many. Um, [00:48:55] most of the cases I get sent have been primary, which makes my life easier, you know? [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Um, maybe they’re not sending you render.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s just there aren’t any, like in the practice of our [00:49:05] practice, there’s not many renders that need treatment. Um, a lot [00:49:10] of times we find the ones that do come up. It’s a, it’s a conversation to have with a patient, [00:49:15] you know, do you want to give it another go? Potentially it’s failed because the ender was poor [00:49:20] or potentially it’s failed because there’s a crack or something else going on. Or do you want to go for extraction [00:49:25] and implant? The practice I work in, where I do most of the Ender work is and [00:49:30] they do loads of implant work as well. So the decision [00:49:35] to go to implant is quite easy. I guess because the implant surgeons we’ve [00:49:40] got are amazing at what they do. We’ve got an older population, [00:49:45] so they’re less inclined to worry about, you know, they’re in their 70s, so they’re less inclined to worry [00:49:50] about trying to save that retreat, retreat and end a retreat, a molar rather [00:49:55] just take it out and put an implant in because it’s, you know, it’s going to last long enough, I guess. So [00:50:00] not that many, but, um, I think that’s just circumstantial really.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:50:05] really brilliantly positioned, man. It’s because you’ve got endo, you’ve got implants, [00:50:10] you’ve got Ken Harris, uh, Richard Coates. Yeah. The full mouth rehab [00:50:15] kind of. Yeah. Maybe you should push all of them forward slightly at a time. And maybe you [00:50:20] become this, like, super dentist, you know, you come across them.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So this is this is what I was [00:50:25] saying earlier, you know, do you go all in on something you’re interested in or do you stay [00:50:30] a little bit more, you know, take a step back and try and cover every topic to a pretty high standard, [00:50:35] but maybe not to a specialist level. Um, and I think that’s more the [00:50:40] direction I think I want to go down.

Payman Langroudi: I knew I knew a guy who was double specialised. Okay. [00:50:45] You can, you can specialise in implants in, uh, Germany where he was. [00:50:50] So he double specialised implants and endo.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s an interesting [00:50:55] combination, isn’t it? Because you’re sort of fighting yourself on both sides. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re like almost. You’ve got both angles, [00:51:00] like saving that tooth or not. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: But I guess the benefit of that is you can then let the [00:51:05] patient make the make the decision. Then you can do both whichever one they go down.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:10] Although one, the one thing I would caution you against in that respect is, you know, [00:51:15] you know, that sort of. Here are three treatment plans. Mhm. Now you decide.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:20]

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. But it’s incorrect. Yeah. Insomuch as that’s, [00:51:25] I’d say the difference between a good dentist and a great dentist. It’s a great dentist, says, [00:51:30] I think option two is the correct one for you. Yeah, yeah, that’s what you want from your dentist. Yeah. Of course [00:51:35] it’s his decision. Mhm. Yeah. But your recommendation, I just think, [00:51:40] is so key. Mhm. It’s so, so, so key and, and I, I don’t know why you [00:51:45] think as a, I used to even think that I used to think. Yeah. Patients choice with full [00:51:50] consent. Yeah. And it is theoretically.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. List of treatment plans [00:51:55] like ten different options. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you done much, uh, training on sort of that side of [00:52:00] dentistry, the treatment planning. No, the soft side, you know, communication, [00:52:05] ethical selling that those things.

Ali Hashemizadeh: No, none of them really resonated with me. You [00:52:10] know, I’ve considered them. You see them all the time. But I found for me the the way [00:52:15] I’m positioned in both my practices, I don’t really need to speak about money at all with patients because we’ve got [00:52:20] treatment coordinators. So that’s good. I don’t the conversation of like how much it’s going [00:52:25] to cost, how cost. How are you going to fund? It never comes up in surgery. It’s always then given to [00:52:30] treatment coordinator and they’ll go through all that and they’re way better at the conversation than I am.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:52:35] that’s interesting. So so that’s why you’re kind of saying it’s up to them. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So my, my decision [00:52:40] is solely clinical based. You know, I’ll give my opinion, but I’ll say, [00:52:45] you know, clinically this is what I can see. These are what we could do. This is probably my recommendation, [00:52:50] but go have a chat with the treatment coordinator. She’ll go through the fees, she’ll go through the timescales, she’ll [00:52:55] go through the appointment breakdown and just see what suits you best. You know, if if you can’t commit [00:53:00] to a full mouth rehab because you’re busy with work or you’re travelling or whatever, then it’s [00:53:05] not an option. There’s no point me spending an extra 40 minutes, half an hour going through all of that. [00:53:10] It’s just a waste of time. Same way should, you know, treatment can go through all of the different financing [00:53:15] options that I don’t need to worry about. And I think that it’s quite nice to separate the two, because then [00:53:20] the patient’s less inclined to think you’re trying to upsell Yeah. Work you’re trying [00:53:25] to you know, all dentists have that bad reputation, I guess, but it’s quite nice to [00:53:30] keep it solely clinical. You know, this is what I see. This is what we should do. Go have a word with someone else and [00:53:35] figure out what you’d like to do. And if you’ve got any questions, you can come back to me. But I’m not the one who’s going to be making.

Payman Langroudi: Both [00:53:40] your practices like that.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s a good fortunate [00:53:45] balance. You know, it’s quite nice that way. So I don’t I don’t really have that worry [00:53:50] I guess because it’s a difficult.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’s a brilliant it’s brilliant. If they can if people are trained [00:53:55] properly.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a brilliant.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Thing because the with like ethical selling [00:54:00] and the conversation stuff, I think as long as you are, as [00:54:05] long as you can communicate with your patients appropriately, you know, there’s no need to try [00:54:10] and upsell a lot. A lot of it comes down to when you’re speaking to them. Once they feel [00:54:15] they can trust you, then they take your word for a lot of the recommendations you have. Then it’s [00:54:20] easier to just say, you know, have you ever considered whitening your teeth? And then they’d be like, oh yeah, actually I have. But if [00:54:25] it’s really pushy, then it comes across really terribly as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although [00:54:30] I think the point of it is, is not, not, not to come across really pushy. And [00:54:35] by the way, if you’re, if you’re treatment coordinators are converting a lot of those treatment [00:54:40] plans, they’re doing the ethical selling part.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Themselves outside of the the clinic. [00:54:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although there are there are good tips in these cases. Yeah. You know, I, I remember [00:54:50] someone selling to me like the way that the ethical selling then the [00:54:55] dental trainers tell. And it’s a basic it’s basically he was trying to sell me a mortgage [00:55:00] or something and he said, look, what are the things that are important to you about the mortgage, A, B or C? [00:55:05] Yeah. I said oh C, and he said, okay, so question, [00:55:10] question, question, question based on the fact that you said C is [00:55:15] important to you. They’re based on the fact that you said A is important to you on this subject. I’ve [00:55:20] I’ve looked at these three solutions for you. And if [00:55:25] you do these three solutions and they repeat back to me the things that I said were important to me. So [00:55:30] it’s a simple trick of the mind. Yeah. This patient. What’s [00:55:35] important to you on my wedding photos? Yeah. At the beginning. Then at the end. Well, if we do this, this, this. [00:55:40] I think you’re going to be amazing on your wedding day. Yeah. Whatever it is. Whatever. I want to bite into [00:55:45] steak. Oh, well, you know, this is with this approach, then you’ll be able to buy steak again. [00:55:50] Yeah. And it’s just there’s some, some sort of like I’ve been heard. Yeah. Feeling.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Well [00:55:55] I think one of the I use that a lot when it comes to endo like root canal [00:56:00] consults a lot of the time because because the population is a little bit older. Yeah. I always, I [00:56:05] always ask that is saving the tooth your number one priority or is it just convenience [00:56:10] being out of pain? Is it you don’t want something to worry about long term?

Payman Langroudi: Everyone [00:56:15] says saving.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Because if they say saving, then.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone says.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Saving. I mean, a lot of times now they don’t a [00:56:20] lot of they used to, I guess. But if they say, you know, I just want something that’s predictable, I don’t need [00:56:25] to worry about it. It’s in it’s done. It’s done then. Okay, well, maybe this really broken down molar is [00:56:30] maybe one we don’t try and save because yeah, like it’s probably not the best option for you. But [00:56:35] if for you saving every single tooth is a priority, then cool. We’ll go down that path. But [00:56:40] it’s complicated and might not work and you need to be accepting of that. So I guess you, [00:56:45] you end up picking up these sort of tricks. So I suppose [00:56:50] when, when you end up spending so much time speaking to people all day.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about other inflection [00:56:55] points. Yeah. Because three minutes ago you were a dental student. Yeah. Now you’re [00:57:00] talking about, you know, cbct and you have other inflection points, [00:57:05] things, things that happened that made you realise X happened, made you realise Y, then [00:57:10] you looked into Z or like other inflection points that got you to this place. I [00:57:15] guess a lot of conversations with with mentors, right?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, that’s the biggest one, I think because [00:57:20] the, the, the beauty of dentistry is how many people [00:57:25] it’s not that big of a community, right? There’s not loads of us. So it’s quite easy to then [00:57:30] get to know so many people who are way more experienced than you and just see what they think. Um, [00:57:35] even people who are like a little bit more experienced is always quite nice because there are only like five years older [00:57:40] than you and they’ve only got five years more experience. They’ll, they will have faced the [00:57:45] problems I face now more recently, you know, if I ask someone who’s in their late 50s [00:57:50] 60s about stuff that I’m struggling with now, they probably yeah, [00:57:55] they’re too far the way the landscape then was so different for them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s [00:58:00] a very good point.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So I think having.

Payman Langroudi: Finding those guys was that because what you’re saying about Newcastle, uh, [00:58:05] playing sports or whatever or going out with people?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Like the dent SoC [00:58:10] is like Newcastle Dent SoC was how I made most of my friends in [00:58:15] dentistry. Now it’s coming a lot through courses and you know, like the B, A, C, [00:58:20] D, for example. That’s where I meet a lot of a lot of my newer, I guess, dental associates [00:58:25] and friends. But that’s the best way is just, I guess with like Instagram and social [00:58:30] media, it’s the easiest way. You know, you, you follow someone, you like their work, you message them [00:58:35] and then before you know it, you’re like really close friends and you’ve maybe not even met before. Um, [00:58:40] but those are the type of people I ask questions all the time. I’m in everyone’s DMs [00:58:45] all the time. Are you? Yeah, all the time. Depending on what the subject is, whatever the topic is, I’ll [00:58:50] ask a certain person a certain question because that’s their area. That’s who I can ask, you [00:58:55] know.

Payman Langroudi: How did you land these two brilliant jobs?

Ali Hashemizadeh: So when [00:59:00] I was in London in my mixed practice, um, there was a moment [00:59:05] I left work. I remember it vividly. Um, and I was on Instagram and [00:59:10] my friend just announced he got a job at this all singing, all dancing [00:59:15] practice just outside of London. I was like, how do I get that the same age as me? How do [00:59:20] I get that? That’s what I want. So I sent it to another friend and who’s a bit older [00:59:25] and he was like, well, clinically it’s not the problem. It’s no one knows you. [00:59:30] You know, that’s where your issue is. So just get yourself out there. So then [00:59:35] that’s what I did, you know, really pushed on Instagram, went to the b, a, c, d events, went to [00:59:40] as many events as I could find and slowly but surely with by [00:59:45] design, you know, it was very intentional. More and more people knew who I was. And [00:59:50] off the back of that just makes it so much easier to land a job that you probably are maybe not quite qualified [00:59:55] for at the time, but they can see that, okay, you’re engaged, you know, maybe [01:00:00] if you’ve got enough recommendations from people that know you, you’ll, it’ll be far easier to land [01:00:05] a job that that you really want.

Payman Langroudi: But did you approach them? Did you [01:00:10] CV drop or was there a job?

Ali Hashemizadeh: No. So the first job I got was my one in [01:00:15] Darlington in Middleton, Saint George. That one I was actually coming up, so I knew I wanted to leave [01:00:20] London. Yeah, I was I was willing to move anywhere in the UK at that point. I was like, just, [01:00:25] I want to leave the city. Um, and I applied to a few jobs in the northeast. [01:00:30] One of them fell through, but he recommended me this practice. But [01:00:35] at the same time, Harry Craig was also working there. So he was like, I’ll put in a good word. And then [01:00:40] just off the back of that, I met up with the principal, Chris, and we got on really well and then it [01:00:45] just worked. So it was, I guess, off the back of a job that didn’t work out. I [01:00:50] then got referred on to this one. And then the practice, Ken’s practice was [01:00:55] they he’s reducing his time because he’s retiring. So they’re looking for someone to step in and [01:01:00] take over some of his days. Um, and I just knew the team, I knew [01:01:05] Ken, I knew Richard, I knew Harry, I knew them pretty well. So then they sort of approached me with [01:01:10] the offer and said, well, we want someone we know. Um, and the good thing there is [01:01:15] for both of them is because I’ve joined so young, is given them the opportunity to create [01:01:20] an associate that they want, you know, someone they want to work with so they can sort of shape you. Okay. [01:01:25] We prefer if you do things this way. Example. Um, so [01:01:30] like Richard, for example, Richard is an absolute titan with composite bonding. You [01:01:35] know, if you look at any of his cases, it’s just, it’s just insane. Um, [01:01:40] so a lot of times if I’ve got anything composite related anteriorly or anything aesthetic, [01:01:45] you know, makeovers, veneers, whatever, he’ll always come into my room [01:01:50] without a doubt. Without me asking, he’ll come in and be like, oh, I think this is a bit off. Maybe [01:01:55] change this, maybe change that.

Payman Langroudi: An angulation, a colour.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Whatever, just like a cancer bit off or, or [01:02:00] the colour’s a bit off or change this and that opens your eyes to seeing, [01:02:05] okay, that’s how I need to be approaching these cases. Not this way. Um, so it really starts [01:02:10] to shape the way you look at everything. You know, the way I do. You know, like a like a new [01:02:15] patient consult changed after working there because you see how it’s different. You know, the clinic [01:02:20] in um Middleton MSG that practice is really digital. Everything is [01:02:25] by design and both practices are kois trained dentists. [01:02:30] So it follows a lot of the protocols. So Chris at Middleton’s [01:02:35] got a really specific way. He likes the check-ups to be done because they follow a certain [01:02:40] pathway. You know, scans are really important in practice. Everyone’s got a scanner so you can [01:02:45] show patients everything. Um, so yeah, I mean, the way I am now has [01:02:50] been totally shaped by those two clinics. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Now I’m thinking you should [01:02:55] do this course as well.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Oh I’m considering I would really like to, I would really [01:03:00] like to. It’s like a, it’d be like a dream course to do for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Oh no. That was going to be my next like [01:03:05] one of my, one of my questions here, like, is that the answer? No. No time or money constraints. [01:03:10] What course would you do?

Ali Hashemizadeh: 100% course. Yeah, 100%. It is. It’s a huge investment [01:03:15] time and money. Um, so we’ll see. We’ll see. Definitely. I’m definitely interested [01:03:20] in doing it. It looks amazing. It’s it’s just like everything, you know, [01:03:25] um, it looks really cool. And I, because the practice I work in, I use a lot of the [01:03:30] philosophy already. Yeah. So it’d be quite nice to then get the formal training for [01:03:35] it rather than the distilled version.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the biggest difference in [01:03:40] these two practices?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um. That’s [01:03:45] tough. Ken works in a very unique way. [01:03:50] And his patients are unique as well. You know, they, they, [01:03:55] they’ve all been with him since he started the clinic.

Payman Langroudi: So it tends to happen. Your [01:04:00] patients reflect you somehow. Yeah. Over the years, you.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Speak to you speak to his patients? And they [01:04:05] are like, obsessed with him in like a really good way. Like he knows everything about [01:04:10] these patients. They the dynamic is really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: The clinic big [01:04:15] shoes to fill. If you’re seeing some of his patients.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Massive shoes to fill. [01:04:20] And there’s like.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a real honour, man.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I mean, it’s [01:04:25] it’s it’s amazing. You know, the, the patients are really understanding [01:04:30] as well. You know, you’d think if I was a patient and I’ve been seeing someone like that for so long, [01:04:35] and then you come in and you see this young kid, you might be taken aback, but a [01:04:40] lot of them are really understanding. I think the idea that he sort of endorsed me [01:04:45] or endorsed Harry, because Harry is really young. He’s only a year older than me, and we both work there, endorsed [01:04:50] both of us. They’re really open and understanding that, okay, like, this is who I want to put my trust [01:04:55] in now. And don’t get me wrong, I know my limitations. I’m not going to start trying [01:05:00] to bang out cases like he’s done. No, Definitely not. But it’s the it’s the right environment [01:05:05] to slowly make my way to that side, you know, to that type of dentistry. [01:05:10]

Payman Langroudi: I had a guy, Mike Hesketh on the podcast. Listen to that one. No he doesn’t. [01:05:15] Yeah. He does, he does. He did, he did this thing where he, he, I don’t know. The [01:05:20] highlight is the number. Highlight is he bought the practice for £250,000 [01:05:25] four years later, sold it for 3.4 million to Bupa. And [01:05:30] then he bought another one for 700,000. And three years later it’s worth three point [01:05:35] whatever million. And he’s got a military background. And he said something about just following following [01:05:40] instructions. So he followed the instruction of his first coach or whatever. But [01:05:45] one of the things he does is he makes the clinical lead [01:05:50] in the practice, the youngest person.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:05:55] it’s so surprising. It’s surprising. Yeah. And he said, yeah, the clinical lead [01:06:00] right now the practice practices 27 year old and she’s, you know, whatever. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I said why but why [01:06:05] her?

Payman Langroudi: Like, why would you have the least experienced person? And he said two very interesting things. Man [01:06:10] one um, she’s not at all involved in the numbers of the practice. So [01:06:15] all the decisions are being made for good clinical reasons. Okay. Yeah. Whereas he’s fully involved [01:06:20] in the numbers, right. Yeah. And number two, she’s the one who’s closest to [01:06:25] university. So she’s the one closest to, you know, organised learning, latest [01:06:30] things, audits, these, these sort of things. And it’s such an interesting [01:06:35] notion, right? That of, of, of that because it just seems so counterintuitive.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. You never [01:06:40] have thought that’s the right way to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Would you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it works. It works like, you know, obviously [01:06:45] it’s kind of working here where Ken Harris is, is trusting his patience with you. Yeah. [01:06:50] Knowing he’s there, knowing that he’s got things in place that, you know, like [01:06:55] procedures in place in the practice and knowing that, you know, his patients trust [01:07:00] him enough that his choice for someone is going to be something that they’re going to accept, [01:07:05] right?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s interesting when you, when you fall, like, I [01:07:10] mean, putting all that trust in a young dentist, especially [01:07:15] for like a clinic that you’ve spent all your money on is bold.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s [01:07:20] an idealism in youth, isn’t there? You know, like you’re not tainted. Yeah, yeah, [01:07:25] yeah. Summer, spring in your step. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, there’s that. [01:07:30] Let’s, let’s ask some of the key questions that I like to ask. What’s your [01:07:35] favourite educational experience lecture course.

Ali Hashemizadeh: The [01:07:40] the most eye opening, like the one that stands out in my memory is [01:07:45] the first conference I went to in London. Um, [01:07:50] I walked into the lecture hall, sat at the back.

Payman Langroudi: Who were you, a student at the [01:07:55] time or PhD?

Ali Hashemizadeh: So yeah, so not long after I met you for the first time. Walk [01:08:00] in, sit in the back. I was running late lectures just starting. And it was Lucas Lassman.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [01:08:05]

Ali Hashemizadeh: And that lecture blew my mind just.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:08:10] about it.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Just the attention to detail. No stone left unturned. Everything [01:08:15] was covered and everything he basically everything he did, you know, [01:08:20] he started talking about airway dentistry as well. And that my I [01:08:25] left totally mind boggled, you know, but the.

Payman Langroudi: The good [01:08:30] way.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I mean, like I left with so much enthusiasm and motivation to. Okay, that [01:08:35] is cool. I want to do that at some point. How do I get there? And I just need to [01:08:40] do whatever I can to, you know, get better because that that is really interesting. And it’s just, [01:08:45] I can’t describe just being sat there and thinking about this type of [01:08:50] outcome is not something I could ever imagine doing. I don’t even know if this was possible. And I just [01:08:55] put it on the screen like it was nothing, you know, like it was just another day at work for him. So yeah, [01:09:00] that by far stands out. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Any others.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That [01:09:05] that is like a frontrunner. I don’t think everything pales in comparison to that. [01:09:10]

Payman Langroudi: Go on. I mean, what what was it about it the course that the guy himself everything. But so [01:09:15] was the treatments that that blew you away.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was, it was.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yes. Like, [01:09:20] how on earth did he get these patients from, you know, a totally broken down mouth? Everything’s [01:09:25] collapsing. That patient can go to 100 dentists, and 50% of them would [01:09:30] say, you’re not getting any treatment here because it’s way too complicated. And he’s taking it and he’s made it [01:09:35] simple. He’s done it and it and it’s worked really well and his years of recall, [01:09:40] but actually it’s really complex work. But he’s made it look so easy. [01:09:45] And, and how can one person have all of that knowledge and skill at the same [01:09:50] time just blew me away. You know, it’s the same. You look at you listen to Ken speak, [01:09:55] or you look at any of his his recalls. I get to see it now, you know, you see the recalls and [01:10:00] it’s it’s real. You know, I’ve seen him lecture a few times and he puts on the [01:10:05] screen before and after and then shows you the next 15 years of recalls every [01:10:10] six months. And you’re like, this stuff lasts and nothing’s changed. Every [01:10:15] photo looks the exact same almost. And then you see the patient, the patient in real life and you’re like, [01:10:20] yeah, it is the exact same. Nothing’s changed. It’s been like 20 years, you know, and [01:10:25] it’s just how do you that is just amazing. [01:10:30] It’s like so inspiring that you can just get to that level of that level of dentistry [01:10:35] in your careers.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy love that. What about if I said, what’s [01:10:40] your favourite resource? Like it could be a book, it could be a YouTube [01:10:45] channel, it could be a podcast. It could be let’s have both dental and non-dental because you [01:10:50] seem into the A self-development piece.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um, in Dental. [01:10:55] Um, Dental a lot of my learnings come from the internet, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah, [01:11:00] but.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Comparatively, comparatively, I’ve done not too many courses and YouTube’s one of [01:11:05] the, the highlights, the, the, the Indo YouTube channel I watch [01:11:10] the most is this guy called I love, I love the pulp. I love pulp, I think is it I don’t know. Yeah, I [01:11:15] don’t know. I’m not actually sure of his his actual name.

Payman Langroudi: Something.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Like that. But his, his account [01:11:20] is amazing because he breaks down educational. Yeah. So it’s case by case learning. [01:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: So the dentist obviously.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. So it’s, you know, treating this complex [01:11:30] upper right, six curved canals, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. But he breaks that. It’s [01:11:35] all recorded through his microscope and it breaks down every step. Why he’s deciding to use this file. [01:11:40] Why is he doing this type of an American? He’s no, he’s British. He’s from like the northwest. Oh, [01:11:45] really? Um, and it just breaks down every single aspect of the treatment. You’re like, oh, That’s [01:11:50] what I should be thinking, you know? Or it will be, you know, file retrieval, [01:11:55] render, whatever, whatever, any sort of type of treatment and endos he’s covered [01:12:00] and he’s covered really well and in detail. So it’s so easy to oh, I’ve got this type of case [01:12:05] coming up. I’ll just go on his YouTube channel search, whatever the main aspect of the [01:12:10] case, the difficult part of it will be, and he’s sure enough has made a video on it and made a really [01:12:15] good video on it. So his videos I watch all the time.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you don’t know his name. It’s beautiful. Like his [01:12:20] handle.

Ali Hashemizadeh: His handle is just. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like me and the guy from Red [01:12:25] bull. Yeah, exactly.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You don’t need to.

Payman Langroudi: Know his name.

Ali Hashemizadeh: The brand.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um, [01:12:30] but apart from that Instagram, you know, I’m sure.

Payman Langroudi: As you’re flicking, you’re saying. Or is [01:12:35] there a place specifically that’s giving you the most value on Instagram?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Like specifically you’ll go [01:12:40] on to, you know, you follow certain accounts, you know, are educational, you know, you [01:12:45] know, that are going to provide value, you know, like Prof. Blatz, for example. You know, everyone knows him. Everyone [01:12:50] follows him because you know, okay, I’ve got, you know, I’m fitting X, Y, Z, whatever. [01:12:55] What is the right way to do it? Just go on his page and you’ll find it. It’s brilliant. But also [01:13:00] you can follow different accounts. I follow so many people and everyone does their own niche. [01:13:05] And you can just pick up tips from everyone. You know. Um, there’s a guy in Dublin, [01:13:10] his Instagram’s Dublin endodontics. I don’t know anyone’s name. There’s no.

Payman Langroudi: Handles. [01:13:15] That’s how we know them.

Ali Hashemizadeh: But his, his cases are like just amazing. [01:13:20] You just, I don’t know how you can get that sort of outcome just with what [01:13:25] he’s doing. It’s I can’t explain it, but he recommended a book that [01:13:30] I’ve just ordered. It’s, um, I can’t remember. It’s [01:13:35] an ender book, something, something, a desk reference or something. Um, and it just, [01:13:40] he was like, yeah, this, this chapter, this chapter, this chapter, these are the ones I really focus on because these are really [01:13:45] interesting. This covers what I do. Yeah, brilliant. I can just go by that and learn.

Payman Langroudi: I love the fact [01:13:50] that, like, you’re passionate about endo. Like there’s someone else listening to this gig. This guy is off his [01:13:55] trolley. Yeah. For sure. So what’s what’s endo porn for you? Is it like those, [01:14:00] uh, those ninja access or. No, no, it’s.

Ali Hashemizadeh: The ones that are just so [01:14:05] broken down and they’re doing there’s like Herodotus, you know, they’re doing.

Payman Langroudi: All sorts [01:14:10] of.

Ali Hashemizadeh: They’re doing all sorts of wacky things, matrixing designs [01:14:15] to get it together.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah, it’s just, it’s just so.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s just because I’ve [01:14:20] you try that kind of stuff, maybe not to that degree, but you try it and [01:14:25] you know how hard it is when you see someone perform it to that level on Instagram, you’re like, [01:14:30] how? Just how, how have you achieved that type of outcome? Um, but it’s [01:14:35] good because all that stuff’s so inspiring. You know, you look at it and you can either see it and be like, I’m never going [01:14:40] to get there. I’m never going to achieve this. Or you can look at it and think, actually, that’s amazing. [01:14:45] How do I get there? And it just, you know, lights that fire inside you and you get excited about work [01:14:50] and then you can go in and be like, okay, I want to try that new technique I saw online. Um, [01:14:55] which is a lot of my learning has come from, you know, that’s where a lot of the new techniques, I’ll just see [01:15:00] it online and think, yeah, that’s what I need. That’s really useful and I can implement it on Monday. But, [01:15:05] um, outside of dentistry, I [01:15:10] think if it, if you can apply it to dentistry, um, perspective is a really [01:15:15] good one, right? So as I said earlier, when you have a really tough day and you can just step back and think, [01:15:20] you know, it’s fine, this will be okay. Um, there’s two books [01:15:25] I read them at uni, but the really good, uh, being mortal and [01:15:30] a man’s Search for meaning.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I love that.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Both both of them put everything into perspective. Because [01:15:35] then you realise.

Payman Langroudi: That mortal I haven’t come across.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s so good.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the key?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Like, it’s about, [01:15:40] uh.

Payman Langroudi: You’re gonna die one day.

Ali Hashemizadeh: So it’s. Yeah, it’s essentially all about death, but [01:15:45] it’s a very personal story. You just read it and you understand that it [01:15:50] really puts everything into perspective that, you know, it doesn’t actually matter. You know, all the little things that you’re worrying [01:15:55] about, especially day to day. I’m like, oh, what’s that? Did I do that perfectly? Probably [01:16:00] you didn’t, but it’ll be okay. Like it’ll work and it’ll be fine, you know? But it’s so [01:16:05] easy to get so brought down by, by, especially if you go online and you [01:16:10] see people posting amazing work and you’ve just come home from work and you think you’ve just done a pretty bad [01:16:15] day’s work, you know, um, but it’s good. It’s really important today that it gives you that [01:16:20] chance to take a step back and think it’s actually okay. You know, it’s not that it’s not the end of the [01:16:25] world, you know, otherwise you just get so consumed by it all.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:16:30] you said modern wisdom as well.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Modern wisdom, the podcast that I’ve listened to since [01:16:35] uni, one of my me and one of my closest friends, we’ve been like modern wisdom junkies since. [01:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: It is good. It’s good. He makes me feel bad about myself because. Because he’s so focussed and [01:16:45] he’s from he’s from Newcastle. Is he is he, is he?

Ali Hashemizadeh: So I [01:16:50] think we must have been like second year or something. We’re on a night out. And we walked past the club that he was [01:16:55] working for or his club, and he was doing like tickets or whatever outside. And I was like, no [01:17:00] way, that’s you. And we went over and spoke to him and like, because it was so early on in his podcasts [01:17:05] career, he was so surprised to meet like us fans. You know, it’s quite [01:17:10] funny. It’s a funny interaction, but, um, no, such a good podcast.

Payman Langroudi: And okay, like, [01:17:15] listen, man, this, this podcasts are good for you. Like that one. Do you [01:17:20] have like a guilty pleasure?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, a guilty pleasure would be Phineas Finn [01:17:25] versus history. So he’s like a comedian and him and his co-host, they [01:17:30] talk about historical anything, you know, they’ll talk about [01:17:35] the arena revolution, for example, but they do it from a comedic perspective. [01:17:40] So they’ll go into detail of the history, but at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really sugar to sweeten. [01:17:45] The pill.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Is made to be really funny, and they go off track and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:17:50] it called, Finn versus history.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Versus history. It’s a bit crude, but like it’s really entertaining. And another [01:17:55] one I listened to all the time is, um, have a word. So it’s these Scouse [01:18:00] lads and they’re all comedians. And if you just need your commute home and you need to just laugh. [01:18:05] Yeah, you put it on and you’re yeah, you’re in tears within like ten minutes again. It’s quite a rude [01:18:10] podcast. It’s quite, you know, you have to be willing to endure some.

Payman Langroudi: I’m enjoying this, [01:18:15] this guilty pleasures. Let’s go into other guilty, other guilty pleasures like guilty pleasure, [01:18:20] fast food. Mine is KFC, man.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That’s [01:18:25] a good one.

Payman Langroudi: On a cold day, I can’t I can’t walk past KFC without thinking, oh. [01:18:30]

Ali Hashemizadeh: I’d have to be like shawarma when I lived in London, the. The [01:18:35] good thing is there’s not much near me in Newcastle Otherwise, when I lived here, it was all the time. [01:18:40] It’s so easy.

Payman Langroudi: Guilty pleasure. Um. Music.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Go [01:18:45] on. Oh.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That’s tough. That’s tough.

Payman Langroudi: This should be a whole new [01:18:50] section of my pod, man.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You could, you know, recently I guilty [01:18:55] about a friend of mine was like, you need to listen to a song again because everyone knows [01:19:00] it. Katy Perry, teenage dream.

Payman Langroudi: Which was that? How’d it go? Oh, I’m not singing [01:19:05] it.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I think it’s called Teenage Dream at least. Um. It’s so good. So good. So that’s [01:19:10] your. That’d be that would have to be currently. Currently it’s you know, it swings. [01:19:15] I love that about yourself. What have you got?

Payman Langroudi: Some, some some like crappy love song. [01:19:20] You know, like. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Sounds about right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:19:25] KFC though, for sure. For sure. Um, I listen [01:19:30] to a lot of politics podcasts. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s interesting, like [01:19:35] things I do for me, right? I listen to restaurant podcasts, food, podcasts, chefs. [01:19:40]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Mhm. Yeah, yeah. A lot of that’s what my YouTube is made up of. A lot of. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. There’s a, [01:19:45] there’s a series I used to watch at uni all the time called Chef’s Night Out.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:19:50]

Ali Hashemizadeh: So they, they just spend an evening with a chef. So they, they go [01:19:55] to the restaurant, see what it’s like. Then that chef will take these, you know, [01:20:00] the camera crew and a group of their own friends on their favourite night out. So it’s like all their favourite [01:20:05] restaurants, all their favourite bars. And it’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a YouTube thing?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. And it’s all the places that [01:20:10] they go to regularly their.

Payman Langroudi: Friends.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Bars, their friends restaurants. And at the end they go back to their restaurant [01:20:15] and they cook for everyone.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, what a great show. Definitely send me the link to that.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I will. It’s so good. [01:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s my favourite, favourite, favourite Anthony Bourdain. Oh yeah. Like my favourite.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Without a doubt.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:25] watch, I watch and listen like I’ve. I think I’ve seen it all now. Seen everything he’s ever done. [01:20:30] Yeah. But now I even listen to episodes that I’ve watched.

Ali Hashemizadeh: You go back through it, it, don’t you? Yeah, yeah. [01:20:35] Um, there’s a, you know. Yeah, yeah. Um, [01:20:40] so I attended his, uh, Dental disruptors thing the other day, the other week, [01:20:45] and he gave us a book, um, unreasonable hospitality.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. [01:20:50] It’s, uh, I’m like halfway through it. And that is brilliant book. That was brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That is so good. And [01:20:55] the same the podcast with Chris on Modern Wisdom with Will the right, the author [01:21:00] of the book. Yeah. So good, so good that it opens your mind up to that [01:21:05] restaurant business that I’ve never even considered.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe I’ve got friends at [01:21:10] all levels in the restaurant world. Yeah, yeah. It’s a nightmare business. Like we [01:21:15] complain.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah about us. But like, you know, like if you go to a restaurant, you order something [01:21:20] for £49. It seems like quite an expensive plate. [01:21:25] Yeah, yeah. But when we do a filling for £49, it seems like a really cheap filling. [01:21:30]

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you know, you can’t charge more than 49 or once [01:21:35] in a while. I’ve paid £100 for a steak or something. Yeah, that’s kind of the limit [01:21:40] of it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so it’s hard to make money, man, because you [01:21:45] have to buy that stuff. You have to cook it. You have to do all of that, make it better than everyone else’s. [01:21:50] Yeah. Um, although when it works, it’s amazing. You know, like I heard Dishoom had like a $100 [01:21:55] million, $200 million, uh, valuation or something.

Ali Hashemizadeh: It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: And did you [01:22:00] that the guy, uh, caring. Richard caring. He just sold, um, [01:22:05] Ivy group for 1.4 billion. So. Ivy. Lucky [01:22:10] cat. Whatever.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: But [01:22:15] think how many restaurants fail.

Payman Langroudi: There must be so many loads. Loads.

Ali Hashemizadeh: There must be so [01:22:20] many.

Payman Langroudi: Such a hard job. Some of them were my friends had, like their dads had one restaurant. [01:22:25] You know, just the commitment, the work and just [01:22:30] the not knowing what’s going to happen next kind of thing. Let’s go like end it by kind [01:22:35] of projecting forward. What do you reckon? What comes to mind if I say your ideal five [01:22:40] year, ten year outcome?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Just [01:22:45] good ten year.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That’s good. Ten year, ten year. I think ten year as long as clinically. [01:22:50] I don’t think it really matters what I’m doing as long as it’s [01:22:55] fun, you know, as long as you still wake up.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoying the.

Ali Hashemizadeh: As long as you still wake up on Monday and you’re you [01:23:00] don’t have to be, you know, super excited about work, but you don’t hate it. You know, you’re, you’re looking forward to what you’ve got that [01:23:05] day. I think that’s important. Um, I think it’s too hard [01:23:10] to, to plan and predict ten years ahead. Even five years is so hard because things change [01:23:15] so much.

Payman Langroudi: Ai.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah. Or God knows what’s gonna happen. But, um, as long as, you know, as long [01:23:20] as there’s a balance between, you know, work is still fun and I enjoy it enough and I don’t hate it. [01:23:25] Yeah. Then I can’t really ask for much more really, because otherwise, you know, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not giving me any further [01:23:30] details. You’re not saying like, oh, I think I might be a practice owner by then. I might own a hundred [01:23:35] practice, like whatever. I mean, I might be a specialist.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. I mean, you don’t could, I could go down the route [01:23:40] of speciality by ten years time. I don’t think I will. I think I’d more likely I’m going to edge [01:23:45] towards saying a general dentist, but covering more things in more detail. Yeah. Hopefully [01:23:50] in ten years time I’m doing a lot more just complex work. So like rehabs [01:23:55] would be the goal. That would be really cool. Um, practice ownership hasn’t [01:24:00] it’s not something I’ve considered really. I think it if [01:24:05] you asked me this when I was at uni or three years ago, I would say 100% [01:24:10] no, I would never do it really, because it just seems like so much of a commitment [01:24:15] to what’s like a, it’s like a baby and it’s so all [01:24:20] consuming, you know, it becomes your life. And I’ve seen it in principles before. You know, that that [01:24:25] is everything to them. That’s what they’re working on all the time. Um, and I think that pulls you [01:24:30] away from your personal life quite a lot. And I don’t want that. I think the beauty [01:24:35] of being an associate is you can arrive, you can do your job, you can earn a living, [01:24:40] and then you can go home and not worry about the rest. Whereas I think as a practice owner, you don’t have that [01:24:45] luxury. And I don’t want that. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s there’s few jobs [01:24:50] as brilliant as a happy associate.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Happy associate. I mean, there’s very many [01:24:55] unhappy associates. Yeah. But you don’t look like one of them. No, no.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Fortunately [01:25:00] not.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it depends on what makes you happy as well. Right. Um, but there is few jobs. But [01:25:05] I remember being a happy associate around your stage. Mhm. Man, you’re king of the world, right? [01:25:10] You’re making money. You’re laughing with your patients. You’re laughing with your team. [01:25:15] Like you say, 530, it’s all over. Do what the hell you like after that. It’s [01:25:20] a good point, man.

Ali Hashemizadeh: But you never know. You know, in ten years time, you might think, actually, I want to. All this [01:25:25] time I’m investing into work. Why not have something to show for it? That’s not just [01:25:30] my monthly wage, you know. Why not have something that’s like, an asset, I guess. Um. Which [01:25:35] which I see on the.

Payman Langroudi: Side on the business side, you know, obviously you can make more being an associate [01:25:40] depending on how well you operate. Of course. Yeah. Um, but often, you know, it’s like [01:25:45] a kind of one of the reasons people switch from associate to principal. [01:25:50] The key reason it’s like a control point. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, you [01:25:55] know, your, your idea of what the patient journey could be diverges, [01:26:00] you know, even it could be on a building kind of level. It could be a [01:26:05] geography thing. It could be, I mean, I mean, obviously I get to see a lot of practices. Yeah. There are some [01:26:10] really extraordinary practices out there, man. There are some there are some really interesting [01:26:15] looking places you’ll see at ministry when I’ve invited people for that, [01:26:20] particularly that alternative patient journeys that they’ve done different looking places. [01:26:25] Some places they, they, they filter. Um, I’m thinking [01:26:30] of small stories. They filter patients. By the time the patients sitting in [01:26:35] the chair, he’s already going to go ahead. Yeah. You know, like kind of in your situation. [01:26:40] But you know, that’s practices have been built up over 30 years. Yeah. This practice that was [01:26:45] set up last year. Yeah. Um, so some that [01:26:50] might be the reason why you decide to go out on your own.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. You find a lot of times like clinical freedom [01:26:55] as well. Right. You know, you want to be doing it in your way because you’re always what you think is best. [01:27:00] But yeah, we’ll see. Ten years, a long time, maybe in ten years time. If we have this conversation again, [01:27:05] I’ll have a practice. But I’m not convinced at the moment. At the moment, practice ownership is not on my it’s [01:27:10] it’s not on my radar, but it’s so early.

Payman Langroudi: Although although although some people, you know, I had Anushka [01:27:15] from, uh, DiMera.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Mhm. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: She, she had decided she wanted a corporate [01:27:20] in dental school. Wow. Yeah. And now she just got her 50th practice, and [01:27:25] she told me 50 was her goal.

Ali Hashemizadeh: There you.

Payman Langroudi: Go. She was 34 or [01:27:30] something. 41 when she came on the pod. Yeah yeah yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. It’s crazy. That’s spectacular. [01:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Three children as well. Um, let’s end it with [01:27:40] the fantasy dinner party.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead [01:27:45] or alive.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. This is we, you know, we spoke a little bit about [01:27:50] you.

Payman Langroudi: Telling me you don’t like to idolise people. No. Go on then.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Because I think no matter who you idolise [01:27:55] for this dinner party, let’s say you, you you have to [01:28:00] idolise them. In my head as a whole, as a person. So if you take someone, you really [01:28:05] you really like their work ethic, right? But then you don’t know what’s going on beyond [01:28:10] that. You know, you don’t know what’s going on in their family life, what they’re like at home. So I think for me, my [01:28:15] answer has always been, I’ve listened to this podcast for ages. So I’ve thought about this a lot has [01:28:20] always just been my mum and dad and my sister, which you said is a cop out, [01:28:25] which I understand because I could just go home and have dinner with them all. Yeah. But the [01:28:30] way I, the way I’ll justify it is you speak to someone who’s, I [01:28:35] guess, you know, you speak to someone who’s older on their deathbed. Generally their advice is going to be what? [01:28:40] Have fun.

Payman Langroudi: Spend more time with your.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Family, spend your time with your family and there maybe work a little [01:28:45] bit less, worry about money less. But if they weren’t alive, you would take the answer, [01:28:50] right? You’d say, yeah, it’s an understandable answer to give, you know, like great.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s called a [01:28:55] fantasy dinner party. That’s why.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, yeah. But it’s like your great grandparents, your grandparents and things. [01:29:00] But for me, it’s, you know, the only people I’ve looked up to idolised, I guess, [01:29:05] is my family.

Payman Langroudi: So maybe, maybe the idle word is just constricting for you.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you [01:29:10] like to meet?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um, if I had to pick someone, a [01:29:15] Chris Williamson would definitely be one because I’ve consumed all of his content before. [01:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve met him already, but. Okay.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You want to talk to him?

Ali Hashemizadeh: Met him in passing. Met him in person. [01:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: To talk to him. Yeah. Okay.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um. Brian Cox. Professor? [01:29:30] Yeah, professor. That’d be a really.

Payman Langroudi: Cool guy, man. What a great guy.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Third one.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:29:35] you go to the event where he was speaking in Dental showcase?

Ali Hashemizadeh: No, no, I didn’t, but I did see on [01:29:40] my phone. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Avi Banerjee was interviewing him. [01:29:45] Yeah. Do you know have you.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Not personally, but I know.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant, but but he he [01:29:50] he said it was it was like one of the biggest days of his life.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Understandably.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, he’s a professor [01:29:55] himself, right? Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a beautiful thing.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Um, a [01:30:00] third one.

Payman Langroudi: Sports someone.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I [01:30:05] think I would go with. Oh. I’m [01:30:10] stuck. Let’s go with. Can I give you two? Can we stick [01:30:15] with those two?

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. Cause we’re breaking all the goddamn rules.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I can’t give you a third one. [01:30:20] Maybe I’ll come up with one later, but.

Payman Langroudi: Give me two. Two more you were going to give me?

Ali Hashemizadeh: No, no, [01:30:25] no. Let’s go with those two.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Come on. Who do you admire most in business? Who do you admire most in sports? Who do [01:30:30] you admire most in, you know, just. Just hit me. Oh.

Ali Hashemizadeh: I [01:30:35] think I would go with the. The [01:30:40] guy who wrote Atomic Habits, the book. I can’t think of his name, but [01:30:45] it’s a cool book. I really liked it. I read it when I was at uni and it.

Payman Langroudi: The problem with atomic habits, dude, is [01:30:50] that if you are like me, you’ll never finish the book, so [01:30:55] you can never build a habit. Yeah.

Ali Hashemizadeh: That’s the problem. That’s what you need to read the book.

Payman Langroudi: You need [01:31:00] to read the book. Yeah, yeah. You need to get like ChatGPT to summarise it first and then. [01:31:05]

Ali Hashemizadeh: In summary notes or even Simon Sinek who you mentioned earlier, he’d [01:31:10] be a really cool person to meet because he’s yeah, he’s pretty spectacular.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing [01:31:15] man. I had such an amazing time talking.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah. Me too. Thanks for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Flown by like [01:31:20] an hour and 40.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thanks so much for coming. And I’m going to see you in ministry, man. [01:31:25] Yeah, it’s gonna be lots and lots of fun.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Yeah, I’m looking forward to it.

Payman Langroudi: Take care everybody.

Ali Hashemizadeh: Thank you very much.

[VOICE]: This [01:31:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:31:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:31:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [01:31:45] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, you must [01:31:50] have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking [01:31:55] through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you [01:32:00] got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:32:05] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank [01:32:10] you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. It only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening. How to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training. Com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Grant Goodson onto the podcast. [00:01:00] Grant is actually married to a dentist, not a dentist yourself, [00:01:05] grant.

Grant Goodstein: But keep it far away from the teeth as humanly possible. Don’t want to ruin any smiles. [00:01:10] I leave that to our dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Um, Leo [00:01:15] Melkonian, who actually, your practice that you guys have just bought is [00:01:20] the closest dental practice to my house, and I walk past there multiple [00:01:25] times a day. A perfect smile that you guys are buying and the first perfect smile [00:01:30] that the original. Yeah. The original. And that group’s become one of our loads and loads [00:01:35] of practices. Um, and new to the UK. Two, [00:01:40] three years you’ve been here. Yeah. And new to the profession as well. But your own history [00:01:45] in Twitter and in tech companies. Um, so we’ll get [00:01:50] into it, but massive pleasure to have you actually come all the way here. We could have just done it from home, right?

Grant Goodstein: I know that’s what [00:01:55] I was thinking. Do it from your place, huh?

Payman Langroudi: Where do you.

Grant Goodstein: Live? I live. Leah and I live kind of near the Hammersmith [00:02:00] Bridge, so we walk to work every day. That’s one of our, uh. I can get a little bit more into [00:02:05] the journey of finding a practice and ultimately leading to the practice where Leo was already working. But yeah, we’re in the neighbourhood [00:02:10] too, and that’s part of what makes us so happy to do what we do is we actually treat our neighbours when we go to [00:02:15] Tesco, when we go to. I always joke with Leah, I’m used to going everywhere with Leah and [00:02:20] she’s everyone’s dentist and they love her and her patients are crazy about her. She gets recognised everywhere and people want to [00:02:25] talk to her. But since I started sitting on the desk and owning the practice’s practice, sometimes I have people who [00:02:30] recognise me too, including the ones who aren’t her patients or our other associates patients. So I always [00:02:35] joke with her. Leah. I was out at getting groceries and I had a celeb sighting today. [00:02:40] Someone recognised me. So it’s always it’s always a lot of fun, but.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, how [00:02:45] did you two meet?

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, so we met. This is, uh, she might be slightly embarrassed with me telling the story, [00:02:50] but that’s never stopped me from doing anything like this before. Uh, she was, uh, [00:02:55] she’s English. She grew up just outside of London in Surrey, and she was [00:03:00] on PhD year. She was working in Essex and she had some, you know, it’s the rare year as a [00:03:05] dentist where he actually have like PTO, like, uh, annual leave, uh, which, [00:03:10] you know, when you’re self-employed associate, you don’t have. And she had a bunch of days she hadn’t taken any holiday yet. This was [00:03:15] just coming out of Covid and she thought, oh, you know what I want? And the reason why is she’s a huge Hannah [00:03:20] Montana fan. That was her favourite show growing up on the Disney Channel. And those who are are [00:03:25] fans, as I’m sure most of your listeners are, know that Hannah Montana, set in Los Angeles in her [00:03:30] house, is a famous house in Malibu. So she was like, I want to live my my Hannah [00:03:35] Montana dream. She’d never been to Los Angeles before. And she said, booking the solo holiday. There are flights for [00:03:40] like £300 per turn, timing it right out of Covid. So she did it and she thought, well, I’m there. Wouldn’t [00:03:45] it be a fun story to tell my friends and family, uh, to go on a date with American guy? So she go to the [00:03:50] dating app. She goes and, uh, we, we mutually swiped on each other [00:03:55] and got to chatting a bit and she told me she her favourite food is sushi so I said, great, we’re going [00:04:00] for sushi when you’re here. And we had a couple of great dates when she was in Los Angeles and. [00:04:05] But obviously it’s not practical, right? Living over 5000 miles away and I was going [00:04:10] midweek up to Las Vegas with some friends. I had a concert that I was [00:04:15] really excited to see Silk Sonic. If you’re familiar with them, Bruno Mars and Anderson.

[BOTH]: Oh, Bruno Mars like.

Grant Goodstein: Great [00:04:20] kind of soul album that they did. And they were doing a residency in Vegas. I had two of my good friends that [00:04:25] I was going with, and on the morning I was supposed to leave, both friends had to cancel last minute [00:04:30] for the trip to Vegas from Los Angeles. One got Covid, the other had a personal emergency come up. And [00:04:35] so all of a sudden I had these tickets to the concert. I just gone on two dates with Leah. I call her out of the blue. I’m [00:04:40] like, I know we don’t know each other that well. Um, but would you want to come to Vegas with me? [00:04:45] And we kind of, once we started spending time together in Vegas, went to the concert, we kind of fell in love and have been [00:04:50] inseparable since we did long distance for a while. And we would try to meet every month or two was [00:04:55] for me at the time I was working remotely in tech, so it was easy ish for me to get away and work [00:05:00] from abroad and do all those kind of things. Um, so we were able to do that until finally [00:05:05] I was able to make it over here on a full time basis.

Payman Langroudi: So was there no question of her moving to you?

[BOTH]: Um. [00:05:10]

Grant Goodstein: It was, but one of the things as a dentist [00:05:15] is the US.

[BOTH]: Doesn’t.

Grant Goodstein: Make it very easy. So she would have to go back to school at a cost of 100,000 [00:05:20] a year for a minimum of three years. So it was firstly, I love London. It’s [00:05:25] uh, will be.

[BOTH]: Had you been before?

Grant Goodstein: I’ve been before once as like a student and, you know, went [00:05:30] to the, to the London Bridge and the Tower of London and Buckingham Palace for the changing of the guard. All the things [00:05:35] us Americans think you should do when you come to London, which I’d really tell all my friends to skip when they’re here. I’d [00:05:40] had a good time. I remember it was when the pound was a lot stronger compared to the dollar, and I had a two [00:05:45] week trip in Europe to visit some friends who were studying abroad, and I spent my entire budget in my four days in.

[BOTH]: London. [00:05:50]

Grant Goodstein: For the trip. So I drank a lot of cheap beer and Prague after that and mostly survived on [00:05:55] that and water. Um, but yeah, so I’ve been to London once before and then got to know London much [00:06:00] better. While I was dating Leah, I was back and forth quite a bit and, um, really fallen [00:06:05] in love with it. And this is where we’ve obviously been buying and buying a business here. Uh, [00:06:10] we’ve decided to make this our, our permanent home for the next many years.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it. [00:06:15] What’s the best and worst things about London compared to someone outside of I miss my [00:06:20] family and friends. I mean, yeah, just as a town.

Grant Goodstein: So for me, what I love again, I grew up in Los Angeles and in [00:06:25] Southern California, which means you’re kind of reliant on a car to go everywhere, right? Like people come to Los Angeles [00:06:30] and they see the beaches right there, but they don’t realise next to the beach is a massive four lane highway [00:06:35] that you have to cross in either direction. It’s just it’s not ideal, but it’s a reality of [00:06:40] a city that was built and kind of built up in the 1950s. This is very reliant on cars. I love [00:06:45] being able to walk and take the tube everywhere I go. I just love the energy that it brings. [00:06:50] I like the idea of like, even in our business, right? Everyone who comes to our practices lives five, [00:06:55] ten minutes away. They live. I’m sure all your neighbours or many of your neighbours come into our practice. [00:07:00] And I love that energy that comes with the idea that you can just pop over to [00:07:05] Tesco and grab the groceries you need for dinner. Doesn’t all involve this effort of getting in the [00:07:10] car.

[BOTH]: It’s only it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Only New York, which is like that.

[BOTH]: Yeah, the East Coast, like [00:07:15] Boston and places like.

Grant Goodstein: That are a little bit more similar, right? I think people came over from England [00:07:20] to the States to start. So the original East Coast cities, Philadelphia, Boston, [00:07:25] New York are a little bit closer to a London field. But on the West Coast, I mean, the population [00:07:30] in California, especially in Southern California in LA, wasn’t any size [00:07:35] until between the 30s and 40s, which kind of came right with the popularisation of [00:07:40] the car. So everything’s built around cars.

[BOTH]: So I.

Payman Langroudi: Found DC the most European. [00:07:45]

[BOTH]: City.

Grant Goodstein: So, um, international and diverse as well. You walk similar to London [00:07:50] and you walk down the street and you could hear five different.

[BOTH]: Languages.

Grant Goodstein: From five different people. I [00:07:55] love DC, I used to be there quite a bit in my previous job.

Payman Langroudi: So good time that Georgetown [00:08:00] bit. Very nice.

Grant Goodstein: That was my dream uni that I didn’t get into.

[BOTH]: Oh really?

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, I fell in love. I went during [00:08:05] high school with my family on a trip to Washington DC and just fell in love with it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very strong on international [00:08:10] relations, that sort of thing.

Grant Goodstein: Oh yeah, I must be. I originally thought maybe I wanted to study [00:08:15] political science.

[BOTH]: Maybe.

Grant Goodstein: Go do some of that. I didn’t, I wound up studying economics, so something completely [00:08:20] different.

Payman Langroudi: So and then you went from economics into tech.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: Um, so I, my [00:08:25] whole life grew up thinking I wanted to work in sport. I’m obsessed with sport and it’s my passion. I always had [00:08:30] this joke within my family because I was really like, um, as a kid, [00:08:35] every kid wants to grow up being the star of the basketball team. I was okay at sports. I was never, [00:08:40] I was good enough to make the team and a good team, but not certainly enough to be any sort of [00:08:45] star or more than a bench player and in my high school. But what I [00:08:50] was interested in is like the business and the back end of sports. So my dream job [00:08:55] growing up from the time I was like five years old, was to be the general manager of the Los Angeles Lakers. [00:09:00]

[BOTH]: That was my dream.

Grant Goodstein: Basketball was my sport growing up. And you know, all the kids are pretending they’re going to be Kobe Bryant [00:09:05] or Shaquille O’Neal. And I was going to be the guy.

[BOTH]: Making the trades, moving the pieces. [00:09:10] So I was like, yeah, there’s very.

Grant Goodstein: Few Jewish kids with limited jumping abilities playing in.

[BOTH]: The NBA. [00:09:15]

Grant Goodstein: So that was going to be the more likely route for me. And I really pursued that, that [00:09:20] dream through university as well. So I wound up going to the University of Michigan, which outside of having [00:09:25] great university sports, also home to the US’s best Dental school. So maybe that was a little bit [00:09:30] of foreshadowing there as well. But so I went to Michigan and I went the.

[BOTH]: What’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Name of that [00:09:35] town?

Grant Goodstein: Ann Arbour.

[BOTH]: Michigan. Ann Arbour So.

Grant Goodstein: Where there’s major scandal right now going on with our football [00:09:40] coach was just fired in disgrace. So don’t get me started on that American football coach, [00:09:45] I should say. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I showed up on the first day of campus, and I found out where the [00:09:50] basketball team’s offices were, and I knocked on the door and I said, can I work here? I want to be [00:09:55] a part of this. And I said, uh, there’s other people interested, but come back next week and we’re doing interviews [00:10:00] for our student managers and, uh, for those who don’t know, and I’d imagine probably not a lot of Americans [00:10:05] listening to the podcast, but American college sports and our unis are, [00:10:10] are on a scale that’s probably hard for most British people to understand. Uh, football [00:10:15] is the biggest thing. And at Michigan, our football stadium, Michigan Stadium, is [00:10:20] the size of the Wembley Stadium, plus the O2, and that’s sold out [00:10:25] every weekend during football stadium. So 110,000.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I noticed, I noticed, I noticed [00:10:30] sometimes the college football stars are bigger than the NFL [00:10:35] ones, like in local towns, right?

Grant Goodstein: It’s it’s absolutely massive. The more than 100% [00:10:40] of the population, like the city’s not even 100,000. We have 115,000 [00:10:45] in the stadium every Saturday for football, so it’s a lot of fun. Our basketball arena, you know, 13,000 [00:10:50] fans screaming, going crazy, jumping up and down the whole game. It’s really a cool experience. [00:10:55] And if you’re a fan of sport, I’d encourage any fan of sport to check out American University Sports. [00:11:00] But anyway, I wound up interviewing, I wound up getting the job, and it was the transformative experience [00:11:05] of my career in university. Um, frankly, I wasn’t an outstanding [00:11:10] student. By the time I didn’t get there. I slept through a lot of classes, but I learned so much and so much that [00:11:15] I take with me today, um, from working for the basketball team. It was, uh, by the time [00:11:20] I was in my third and fourth year, I was working 40, 50, 60, 70 hours a week. So [00:11:25] a lot more time spent. So I was, I started out basically doing all the dirty work that no one wants to do. That’s [00:11:30] player falls on the floor wiping up the sweat. Everything from [00:11:35] setting up the cones for the drills. Basically, our job was to allow it so the players can focus on playing. [00:11:40] Our coaching staff could focus on coaching. We did all the dirty work that helped everyone [00:11:45] focus on their task. As my time evolved, I had a very special [00:11:50] interest in analytics and the numbers around sports, which is especially [00:11:55] at that time in the early part of I started uni. Between 2012 and 2016, [00:12:00] that was growing like crazy. So that was an area of interest for me. And I kind of pitched [00:12:05] an additional role to the staff to be kind of the, the analytics manager for the team as well. So putting [00:12:10] together all sorts of reports, both from games and practices. But again.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a gambling edge to that [00:12:15] as well?

Grant Goodstein: There is. It’s highly illegal for the folks involved in it to be [00:12:20] like. So I was certainly not gambling on. I’m not much of a gambler anyways, but there’s [00:12:25] sports.

Payman Langroudi: Gambling is a gigantic thing.

Grant Goodstein: Gambling is growing like crazy. The UK was well ahead of the US. [00:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: Because it was.

Grant Goodstein: Legal or illegal and now legal, and I think 46 of the 50 states and the [00:12:35] US, California is actually one of the few exceptions that doesn’t allow it on a legal basis, but it’s not hard [00:12:40] to do it if you want to do it on a on a semi-illegal basis. But yeah, there’s a [00:12:45] lot of math and statistics that go into that as well. But yeah, it was a transformative experience. [00:12:50] I worked under kind of a very legendary coach in that world, the same as John Beilein. He’s if, you know, [00:12:55] college basketball, this was one of the all time great worked up from the bottom, self-made [00:13:00] kind of men. And he a lot of the lessons that he brought in the way [00:13:05] that he led the team is stuff that we use every day, actually in our practice now, in the way.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:13:10] we tell me what kind of things.

Grant Goodstein: So something that was very interesting to me and something that was unusual [00:13:15] is I think people operate best when they’re at their most [00:13:20] enthusiastic and their most engaged, but that can be very hard to. Everyone has a bad day. [00:13:25] Everyone is someone sick. Someone just had their grandmother die a few weeks [00:13:30] ago. There’s. Life happens, right? Yeah. Um, so one of the things that [00:13:35] he believed in was creating rituals to build enthusiasm. So the every day would start [00:13:40] with a film session. So they would look at the film from games and practices before they went on to the court to take [00:13:45] to to do the practice or play the game. He would be the last one to enter the room. All [00:13:50] the players would get there at least five minutes early if the film session started at one. You got to be in the room [00:13:55] by 1255 at one on the dot. He comes through the door. [00:14:00] Every player gets up out of their chair and starts clapping and screaming. It’s probably the most American [00:14:05] thing that you’ve ever heard. British people would find this horrifically cringeworthy and embarrassing, [00:14:10] but it created this sense of enthusiasm, even though it was a ritual. And it’s [00:14:15] like, this is what we do. It created a real enthusiastic ritual. So all the dentists and [00:14:20] everyone, last I come in, we don’t do the same thing every morning, but we come in and I say good morning, and [00:14:25] I go into every dentist room, every hygienist room, give them a big good morning, get [00:14:30] them fired up for the day. We’ve got a fully booked diary. Let’s let’s do this. Let’s let’s let’s fix [00:14:35] some teeth. I mean, I just bring that again, very American, probably anti-British [00:14:40] sense of enthusiasm.

Payman Langroudi: You know what? I think the problem with enthusiasm [00:14:45] is that what you’re saying, the cringe worthy part of it is if there’s nothing solid behind [00:14:50] it, yeah.

Grant Goodstein: You got to back it up.

Payman Langroudi: If there’s something solid behind it, well, enthusiasm is the best thing in the world, [00:14:55] isn’t it? You know, like I hear where you’re coming from, like, I’m sure some nurse is like, oh, [00:15:00] here we go again. But but it’s the key point is, is there something to back it up [00:15:05] or not? Yeah. You know, if you’re making these changes and you’re making this place the best practice around and all that, [00:15:10] then hell, let’s be enthusiastic.

Grant Goodstein: And that’s our vision. And I think part of that is do you have [00:15:15] the right team behind you? We’re now a team of 14, including myself, um, combination of [00:15:20] dentists, dental nurses, practice manager, um, hygienists of that 14, [00:15:25] only three, one of which is my wife are holdovers from the practice that we took [00:15:30] over in July.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay.

Grant Goodstein: It’s almost a new team and that energy and enthusiasm [00:15:35] and that presence.

Payman Langroudi: It was always there.

Grant Goodstein: It’s like the number one quality that we’re looking for. Like so. [00:15:40]

Payman Langroudi: The.

Grant Goodstein: Process to be critical of anyone in the past as a practice was very successful in [00:15:45] the past and there were great clinicians and staff.

Payman Langroudi: What happened? Did you come in saying, this is my vision [00:15:50] and people weren’t aligned? And yes, you managed managed them out?

Grant Goodstein: Yes. And it wasn’t [00:15:55] all my choice, to be honest people. Um, we had and again, business owners will know this when [00:16:00] there’s change. Not everyone likes the idea of change. That’s true. Even if that change can and will [00:16:05] be and you expect it to be a positive. I had multiple staff members who told me I sat down with [00:16:10] everyone when we let the team know that we’d be buying, and the team was not as familiar with [00:16:15] me, but they were very familiar and loved Leah. And it was a team effort where she leads the clinical side [00:16:20] and I lead the operational side and we made some changes. For example, instead of first patient at nine, first patient’s [00:16:25] at 8 a.m. now, so that’s one change. Not everyone’s enthusiastic, especially people who are commuting [00:16:30] with. And we didn’t do it from day one. We said, we want to give you a three month warning. If this is where we’re headed, We. [00:16:35] The last thing we want to do that wouldn’t be fair, but we gave everyone fair warning. We said, [00:16:40] these are going to be some of the changes. This is how we want to change the atmosphere. This is how we want to change the energy. This is what we’re going to [00:16:45] do. And multiple members of staff basically gave me the middle finger and said, good luck without [00:16:50] me. And we were surprised. We thought, everyone loves Leah because she’s so loved [00:16:55] in that practice. She was a practice as a corporate three surgery practice. There’s no [00:17:00] principal dentist, but she was there four days a week. She had really taken an interest in the practice [00:17:05] and patients loved her. People would come in asking for Leah, which is, I think, not always so [00:17:10] typical in a typical corporate dental practice. So she kind of felt the sense of ownership [00:17:15] already that, of course, when we became the actual owner, she kind of expected that the team would get behind her [00:17:20] and ideas and it ultimately wasn’t the case. So, um, we finding [00:17:25] those right team members became our priority.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s interesting as I was a dentist [00:17:30] before I stopped years ago, but as a, as an associate, your [00:17:35] relationship with the team is very different to. As the business owner that I am [00:17:40] here. And there’s almost as a as an associate, especially in a [00:17:45] corporate situation here, there’s a bit of an us and them thing going on, especially [00:17:50] because there’s no one you can literally go to who’s got absolute power. People have to keep [00:17:55] putting things up the chain.

Grant Goodstein: I think there’s some people who like that. Actually, one of the reasons they prefer to work at a corporate [00:18:00] is because a corporate environment is generally going to be a bit more hands off, right? There’s not someone.

Payman Langroudi: You can [00:18:05] hide, right?

Grant Goodstein: You do things your own way, like again, whereas if you have the principal and the principal’s [00:18:10] husband who are there from a business and operational side, we do have some things that we have a pretty clear [00:18:15] idea of how we want them to be done, and we hold our team accountable to the way that we want to be done. Again, [00:18:20] ultimately for clinical things. Firstly, that’s the last place where I feel comfortable [00:18:25] or appropriate to butt in because I am not clinical whatsoever. Although Leah jokes that I’m ready for year [00:18:30] two of dental school now, based on what I might have learned.

Payman Langroudi: People talk about classically when [00:18:35] there’s two two trains of thought on this subject of when you buy a practice. Some [00:18:40] people talk about evolution and some people talk about revolution. And the evolution [00:18:45] path is the sort of the lower risk way of doing it right, is that you’re going to [00:18:50] come. You’re not going to rock any boats. You’re going to keep things very much the same so [00:18:55] that the staff don’t get scared off and the patients don’t get scared off. You’re going to [00:19:00] assess it properly, and then you’re going to make small change after small change. Even if [00:19:05] your ultimate goal is something very different to what we are today. The other approach says [00:19:10] there’s memories in this old approach that I almost want to physically [00:19:15] rip out of the wall. Yeah, and the fact that I’m coming and ripping when [00:19:20] the room was oriented this way. Now I’ve taken that wall out and now the room’s oriented that way. The memories [00:19:25] of the previous practice are gone. And now? Now we can start fresh. I guess that was your [00:19:30] approach.

[BOTH]: I think so.

Grant Goodstein: Some of it was by choice, some of it was not. I think one of the things that is the [00:19:35] reality and the environment is, firstly, we’re first time practice owners, we’re young. I [00:19:40] think there’s I’m 31. Leah’s a bit younger than me. There’s not. Firstly, many practice [00:19:45] owners our age, especially first time practice owners, especially not in London. [00:19:50] The reality of the business right now is, firstly, we had [00:19:55] a little bit more knowledge about what was working well and what we wanted to change. I think because she had been working in this [00:20:00] practice as an associate, made that a little bit clearer. The other part is with the way practice [00:20:05] valuations sit right now and the way the model used to work, and it was interesting talking and learning from [00:20:10] Chirag, who’s been an absolute class act, who sold us the practice with under. He [00:20:15] wasn’t thrilled with the idea at first, but he came around to it. We could talk about that.

Payman Langroudi: I liked Chirag.

[BOTH]: When.

Payman Langroudi: He grows [00:20:20] on you, man.

[BOTH]: Yes, he’s a sweet. He’s a sweet guy.

Grant Goodstein: Especially once you get to know him. And he’s been, again, [00:20:25] very generous with his expertise with me. But when he was telling me when he was starting to buy by practices [00:20:30] 20 years ago. With perfect smile. They were trading at about 30% of turnover. So you [00:20:35] were wanted to buy a practice with half £1 million in turnover. You were paying what, [00:20:40] 100 and sorry, 150,000 for that practice now, rather than [00:20:45] a multiple of turnover, which which is a third. They’re trading at about 7 to [00:20:50] 10 times profit. And the profit margin is generally about 20% [00:20:55] for, for a typical practice, rather than trading at, let’s call it one third [00:21:00] of turnover, they’re now trading at one and a half times turnover. So it’s five times [00:21:05] the cost to buy the exact same contract practice as it was 20 [00:21:10] years ago. And the truth is, especially with rising interest rates or I guess they’re not risen compared to where [00:21:15] they were, um, let’s call it a decade ago. Yeah. Um, we couldn’t [00:21:20] afford to keep the practice as it was. And that was part of what our vision was. We bought [00:21:25] the practice knowing that if we didn’t grow, we [00:21:30] weren’t going to be successful in this. So our. And that was one of the reasons why we felt [00:21:35] there was opportunity again. Perfect smile is an incredible business, but it [00:21:40] just is a different reality to have a principal husband, wife, team led business. [00:21:45] There’s a different level of attention to detail and pursuit.

[BOTH]: Of opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: Much more.

Grant Goodstein: Exactly [00:21:50] versus on a corporate model. Again, this is, I want to be clear, no criticism of of them as they [00:21:55] do an incredible job in running their group. But we came into it with a very clear [00:22:00] picture and some underwritten assumptions.

[BOTH]: And some.

Grant Goodstein: Changes.

[BOTH]: That we could.

Payman Langroudi: Just. Okay, just just quickly, [00:22:05] if you will, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re wanting to. Yeah. Give me [00:22:10] a couple of the highlights of what did you already know you could change to [00:22:15] make this place more profitable?

[BOTH]: So I would say.

Grant Goodstein: And I want to focus on my, my [00:22:20] priority was not to make it more profitable first. Not that we didn’t [00:22:25] want it to be more profitable because we certainly do. Our priority first was actually what do patients [00:22:30] want? Ask patients what do they want? And my firm belief in business is if you’re meeting your customers [00:22:35] needs better, your business will be more profitable so long as you look at the financial logic behind [00:22:40] it. You can’t you can’t sell pounds for £0.50 as long as you stay away from doing that. [00:22:45] Um, you have an opportunity to do well. So one of the things that was interesting was every, [00:22:50] uh, patient, if you ask them, what change would you like to see most? Which Lea asked [00:22:55] lots of patients as they said, I want to be able to see the hygienist here. You only have a hygienist in one [00:23:00] day a week. I would like to see it. It was. The hygienist was booked like six months [00:23:05] in advance. So the first change we made from we took over on July 1st. [00:23:10] From July 2nd, we had hygienist four days a week. Now we have the hygienist five days a week [00:23:15] now. Did you find.

Payman Langroudi: The space for that?

Grant Goodstein: That comes back to the equation and the [00:23:20] hour. So we expanded the hours of the practice. We started instituting split shifts. So we have a hygienist [00:23:25] and 8 to 2 some days 9 to 6. Some days we’re starting to add a 230 to [00:23:30] 8 shift. We’re thinking about how we open availability on weekends. And again under [00:23:35] a corporate model, it’s hard to make those changes. And it’s not easy because the manager doesn’t necessarily [00:23:40] feel empowered to say, okay, we need to build out Saturdays because that manager doesn’t [00:23:45] want to work on Saturdays. And that’s what’s ultimately going to drive.

Payman Langroudi: I think the 8 to 8, seven days [00:23:50] a week model might end up being a necessity. Yeah. Um, [00:23:55] especially, you know, what sort of grinds my gears, if you like, is where people, [00:24:00] you know, there’s a vanity metric of having more than one practice. Yeah. You almost feel like [00:24:05] if you can go from 1 to 2, you can go from 1 to 100 almost. Yeah. You want to just be able to replicate. [00:24:10] Yeah. But the, the people who go to number two before sweating number one properly [00:24:15] and you see it a lot. I mean, in your place at the end of the day, it’s a shop front and [00:24:20] you know, okay, maybe you can go down. But you know, sometimes I see it in some, you know, outside [00:24:25] London, massive building and, and space for [00:24:30] development. But they’re talking about moving on to a second practice. They’re not open 8 to 8, [00:24:35] seven days a week.

Grant Goodstein: We’d much rather focus on exactly. Um, how do we offer more [00:24:40] in our current footprint? And I hope and expect that we’ll be in a place to grow that footprint or replicate [00:24:45] that. Our hope would be to find more space in or near the current footprint. [00:24:50] So whether it’s the flat above becomes available or the building next door, that would be something we’d love to do in the future. [00:24:55] But again, if we’re open 9 to 5 Monday through Friday and closing at 430 on Fridays, [00:25:00] like exactly as you said, we should be open Saturdays. We should be open evenings. We should be thinking about all [00:25:05] those things before we say, okay, it’s time to open the next one. So there’s still a lot of work to do. [00:25:10] We’re about five and a half months into this journey, and I think it’s going to my kind of timeline is I think [00:25:15] it’s going to take two years of really focussed effort. We still have an open Saturdays yet. We’re just going to be opening, [00:25:20] uh, evenings in February.

[BOTH]: It’s not easy. It’s not easy.

Payman Langroudi: The 2 to 8 shift [00:25:25] is one that you could. It’s difficult to find people for. Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: Um, one of the things actually that might surprise [00:25:30] you is I, in listening to your podcast and others, people talk about finding clinicians, hiring [00:25:35] dentists, hiring hygienists, being really hard. We have not had that same problem whatsoever. [00:25:40] Dental nurses have been a little bit more challenging to find. Um, but [00:25:45] what I’ve found coming from outside the industry is when you present your practice as [00:25:50] different and you again, not just present it as different, but then show how it’s different. People [00:25:55] will flock to you. There’s a lot of dentists who are really fed up with the traditional corporate model and the [00:26:00] expectations of them, and the rigour that comes with some of the constraints that are put on them. [00:26:05] I think there’s a lot of dentists who are really, really interested.

[BOTH]: Give me your pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Give me your pitch. Do you give to an [00:26:10] associate?

Grant Goodstein: Yeah. So I think, um, firstly the area that we’re in is, [00:26:15] is favourable for an associate. Right. Um we are a, we are a proudly mixed practice. We [00:26:20] have NHS patients and we have.

[BOTH]: Why did you choose.

Payman Langroudi: To do that? Why didn’t you choose to go fully private? [00:26:25]

Grant Goodstein: Um, it’s two reasons. Two reasons I’d say. Um, [00:26:30] one is that I and this isn’t different for me as an American, right? Because I didn’t grow [00:26:35] up with the NHS where I’m from, we pay for all healthcare and medical and dental. [00:26:40] Um, but I quite like the vision and the mission of the NHS. And I wish that there was more access to health [00:26:45] care in my own home country. So one, I really like that we’re able to provide access, [00:26:50] particularly to children and people who don’t have the funds to pay. I think that’s great. The second [00:26:55] thing for us in our area, I mean, we’re very lucky that we live in quite a nice area of London, [00:27:00] and that means that the patients who come into our practice are generally people who do have the means to opt [00:27:05] for some of those private treatments, whether it’s whitening their teeth with enlighten, whether it’s Invisalign [00:27:10] to to fix anything that they’ve been insecure about. When they’re thinking about fillings and crowns, [00:27:15] they want to look for those tooth coloured options. So for us, it’s actually quite a nice balance because [00:27:20] we never have to worry about as an NHS practice, never have to worry about any gaps in the [00:27:25] diaries. And at the same time, a lot of those patients, when you educate them, talk to them about, learn [00:27:30] what their goals are. Take great interest in in what they would like [00:27:35] both for the function and the aesthetics of their smile. What we find is when we properly [00:27:40] educate patients, they’re very interested and prefer to go for a lot of those private treatments. [00:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: So okay, so you know your first reason though, I get it. But you [00:27:50] could, you could, you could do good in any direction, couldn’t you? You could, [00:27:55] I don’t know, feed the hungry in Africa. Just silly example. Silly example. But [00:28:00] you could. Yeah. Yeah. But the second, the commercial side of it. Yeah. And I know lots of practices [00:28:05] do do this. Yeah. And in the right location, which I think [00:28:10] Fulham is the right location for that sort of approach. Just the fact you can get bums on seats then [00:28:15] explain it properly. But, you know, the notion of it’s [00:28:20] difficult to do both well. Yeah. So are we saying that if you [00:28:25] had to pick. Are you giving private treatment to these NHS patients, or are you giving [00:28:30] NHS patient treatment to the private? You know what I mean? Like it’s difficult to do both. Exactly [00:28:35] right.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: I think again, it’s always a balance to strike. Right. And there’s business realities to all of this too. [00:28:40] Yeah. Um, again, we believe in treating everyone equally in terms of [00:28:45] the dignity of the level of care that they deserve, whether they come in as an NHS patient solely for [00:28:50] NHS care, as an exempt patient or otherwise. Our job is to help make sure [00:28:55] that their oral health is well looked after, and we take that very seriously. Are there business realities [00:29:00] of what we can and can’t offer on the NHS based on what the contract is? Absolutely. That’s [00:29:05] true. And I think it’s again, we could get into what I think the future of NHS [00:29:10] dentistry might look like. And I think, uh, does it make sense to offer kind of full fee [00:29:15] paying patients a fixed price for for check-ups in this banded structure, [00:29:20] I’m not sure. I think the NHS money would be more effective and go a longer way if we. If we [00:29:25] kind of focussed on NHS funding for exempt patients, whether those are children or [00:29:30] people who really have a financial need, I frankly think that would probably be a better way to allocate [00:29:35] care to people who need it most, and then allow the free market to dictate for things [00:29:40] like check-ups and hygiene care and fillings. Like if you said, hey, there’s no more NHS care [00:29:45] for, um, folks who are fee paying who don’t have an exemption. What I think [00:29:50] you would see is a much more competitive environment. And some of frankly the [00:29:55] there’s cross-subsidization subsidisation right. No practice can certainly [00:30:00] not in London can afford to be a purely NHS practice. You have to offer private. And the private goes [00:30:05] to help subsidise that NHS care that’s delivered at a loss. But again, it is [00:30:10] a tough balance to strike. One thing that.

[BOTH]: We’re looking at.

Payman Langroudi: I just want to drill a bit deeper into it as a business.

[BOTH]: Go for it. [00:30:15]

Payman Langroudi: Just be a.

[BOTH]: Businessman.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Yeah. You’ve got this number of chairs.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:30:20] the capacity of those chairs for private dentistry. [00:30:25] You could have said, I’m going to grow the private side.

Grant Goodstein: We’d probably have made more money if we came in in [00:30:30] week one and said, and there are folks who take this model and said, we’re going fully private, either sign [00:30:35] up for practice plan or den plan or something like that.

[BOTH]: Again, it’s.

Grant Goodstein: A little different for [00:30:40] us because we live in this neighbourhood. These are our neighbours. These aren’t.

[BOTH]: Numbers.

Payman Langroudi: The private patients [00:30:45] would have been your neighbours too.

Grant Goodstein: But what I’m telling you is there’s people who’ve been coming to this practice for 20 plus years.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t [00:30:50] want that bad, will.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, not not only bad Will. We just didn’t feel good about doing that. And we don’t feel [00:30:55] good about doing that again. Um, we can’t treat everyone. That’s a reality. But people are [00:31:00] used to getting care on a certain basis in their in their neighbourhood, and we are their neighbours. It [00:31:05] didn’t feel like the right thing to do. And again, over the long term, we hope to be able to remain committed [00:31:10] to the NHS and we anticipate. But we can’t make promises forever because we don’t know how the contract [00:31:15] and the model will change with the years, but for right now, we don’t feel good about changing [00:31:20] too much, too fast for our community, and we want to be able to again. It’s [00:31:25] different when you’re some some guy sitting in an office and, uh, on, on, uh, [00:31:30] in the city or whatever it might be. We see our patients every day and they’re our community members. [00:31:35]

Payman Langroudi: And we understand, like, I live three minutes from the practice. Yeah. I [00:31:40] want a private orthodontist specialist to treat my child. Have [00:31:45] you got one?

Grant Goodstein: Uh, we don’t have an orthodontic specialist, but.

Payman Langroudi: I want one. Yeah. So [00:31:50] now now I’m having to go find one. Yeah. So you’re not serving me? Yeah. I live [00:31:55] three minutes up the road and you’re not serving me. Yeah, I’m not saying, you know, I’m not saying you have to do one thing or the other. [00:32:00]

[BOTH]: You can’t.

Grant Goodstein: Serve everyone. That’s. That’s the truth. And what we look for in that scenario is who are our great partners? [00:32:05] For example, a couple of the things that you mentioned, we start thinking, what are we not offering here that we can’t offer [00:32:10] here? Two of the things that we again fixed right away. We now have a dentist with a special interest [00:32:15] in implants, and we have an oral surgeon to do that one. Before there was not.

[BOTH]: That.

Grant Goodstein: Before. So those are two new [00:32:20] things. We’ve also significantly expanded our focus on orthodontics through Invisalign. [00:32:25] Leah’s gone from doing about 20 cases a year to closer to 100 cases a.

[BOTH]: Year.

Grant Goodstein: With Invisalign [00:32:30] also. Again, how do we build stronger?

[BOTH]: How did you manage that?

Grant Goodstein: I mean, my wife is just [00:32:35] extraordinarily talented at her job.

[BOTH]: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you manage? She was doing 20. Yeah. And [00:32:40] then how did you find the other 80 patients to, um.

Grant Goodstein: Through effort and through delivering [00:32:45] an amazing experience. And I think we can get more into that is when people like you and you [00:32:50] educate people properly and you get to know them and you ask them questions. She’s the furthest [00:32:55] person in our practice is the furthest practice where you feel sold to, and that’s the last thing that we ever [00:33:00] want. But when a patient comes in, I mean, this is a story that happens on a weekly basis. [00:33:05] Patient comes in. She’s in her late 20s, early 30s Engagement [00:33:10] ring on her finger. Oh my God. Samantha. Congratulations. [00:33:15] I noticed the ring. You’re engaged. So exciting. Yeah, I’m getting [00:33:20] married. We’re going to get married in 2027. It’s really fun. Amazing. [00:33:25] Anything with with your wedding? Have you started planning the wedding yet? We’re going to go get married. Doing a destination [00:33:30] wedding in France. This, that and the other. Amazing. Anything that we can do to help [00:33:35] get you ready for those wedding photos. You know what? I’ve been up. I don’t [00:33:40] really like how my teeth look. They’re a bit yellow. Amazing. Is that something you want to get ready for [00:33:45] your wedding? Let’s talk about enlighten. Like those are the kinds of conversations that we like to have. When [00:33:50] you get to know people and that happens front of house at reception, it happens in surgeries. [00:33:55] When you take genuine interest in people’s lives and build a connection, you will be shocked [00:34:00] what you learn and the more you learn, the better you can serve your patients. [00:34:05]

[BOTH]: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, genuine interest in the patient’s life. Really, that is a key, [00:34:10] key thing.

Grant Goodstein: And it can’t be fake. You can’t.

[BOTH]: Coach.

Grant Goodstein: People to be like, oh, Joe, I see in your notes [00:34:15] here, like.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: It has to be genuine. And that’s one of the ways we screen. Again, we brought in a [00:34:20] lovely new practice manager. Again, I was telling you earlier from a previous guest on your practice, Claire Nightingale [00:34:25] talking about specialist orthodontic practices.

[BOTH]: Actually, my London.

Payman Langroudi: My daughter went to Claire [00:34:30] Nightingale.

[BOTH]: And again.

Grant Goodstein: That’s the other thing from us. Our answer to you is always what’s [00:34:35] best for you, not best for us. So we just closed for two weeks for a refurb. A patient [00:34:40] is in pain. They need a tooth extracted. We don’t say, hey, wait for us until we’re back and we’ll do it. We’ll [00:34:45] say, this sounds bad. How about we refer you to our friends at Fulham Road Dental and you get that taken [00:34:50] care of this week. Someone comes in with a pretty complex orthodontic case. It’s not like, let me try [00:34:55] to figure it out. It’s, you know, this is complex. You should really would benefit from a specialist here. Let’s refer [00:35:00] you over to our friend Claire at at Queensgate. Like that is our model when you look after [00:35:05] the patients again, my thing that I talked to every clinician about when I interviewed them is [00:35:10] our ethos is what you recommend for every patient should be the same [00:35:15] advice that you would offer to your parent, your sibling, your child, [00:35:20] your niece or nephew. That’s the standard of care that we expect to deliver. [00:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: So there’s a professor called Martin Kelleher and he talks about it’s called [00:35:30] the daughter test. Is that would you treat this patient the same way as you treat your daughter? It’s like an ethical [00:35:35] test. Yeah.

[BOTH]: No, we.

Grant Goodstein: Believe really firmly. And then we ask our clinicians, [00:35:40] when you sign up here, you use you sign up to take [00:35:45] that question and keep that in your mind with every patient. This is this is not about selling the most [00:35:50] treatment. There’s just out there who describe oh, I’ve just bagged a case. I’ve [00:35:55] heard some things like that. That’s that’s not the way that we look at our business. We look at our business as [00:36:00] delivering exceptional care. And when I say care, that’s not just the care that we apply [00:36:05] to your teeth is the care that we deliver to the individual person.

Payman Langroudi: Can I rewind to when you [00:36:10] were looking to buy? Did you look at other practices?

Grant Goodstein: Oh yeah. We knew that this was [00:36:15] something both of us come from entrepreneurial families. Both of us had fathers that had their own [00:36:20] small businesses. So it’s in some ways probably in our in our blood for both of us. And [00:36:25] we knew if you’re an ambitious person, this was probably going to be the next step. I had kind of grown a little bit [00:36:30] tired of my career in tech, and I had something that Leah and I actually probably from our third or fourth date, we talked [00:36:35] about doing this together at some point. Um, so we wanted to [00:36:40] do it. And the obvious answer was we wanted to buy where Leah was and Fulham [00:36:45] perfect smile, but that was never going to be likely, right? How often do corporate sell an individual [00:36:50] um, practice. So we started looking, we went to on the BDA course how to [00:36:55] buy a practice with both of us. We signed up with Henry Schein, we signed up with Dental elite, we signed up [00:37:00] with, um, Frank Taylor. Frank Taylor we were on all the lists and we start to look [00:37:05] at practices and we started looking. We put in a couple offers. We met some lovely people. [00:37:10] By the way, who are still in touch with the practice owners who were selling their practices.

[BOTH]: Do you feel.

Payman Langroudi: Confident looking at the [00:37:15] books or did she or did you have an outsider?

Grant Goodstein: So I.

[BOTH]: Yes. [00:37:20]

Grant Goodstein: I felt.

[BOTH]: Confident.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit complicated, isn’t it? When you don’t know the sector.

Grant Goodstein: I’m a student [00:37:25] of business and I. Something that I like particularly love is business, and I’m someone [00:37:30] who’s read every one of Warren Buffett’s, let’s call it 70 annual shareholder letters to Berkshire [00:37:35] Hathaway shareholders. And I have an economics background. So there.

[BOTH]: Are certainly.

Payman Langroudi: For you. Not too.

[BOTH]: Bad.

Grant Goodstein: There were questions [00:37:40] that I had, and there were things that I had to learn and.

[BOTH]: Learn in the.

Grant Goodstein: Business. And one of the things that you [00:37:45] learn very quickly is the numbers that they give you in all these marketing pamphlets are actually worthless, and [00:37:50] you have to build your own assumptions because everyone’s going to tell you, oh, we spend nothing on this, nothing on this £0 [00:37:55] on marketing, £0 on recruiting, £0 on. And those numbers just aren’t true. So kind [00:38:00] of the formula that I learned to, Hope to understand better is what [00:38:05] is their revenue from the NHS? What is their revenue from private and what is their revenue from hygiene? [00:38:10] Those were the only three numbers that I was interested in. And what is the staff, the employed staff making? [00:38:15] Um, if I had that information, I would do my own math about what the actual profile [00:38:20] of this business was going to be. I again had crazy Google Docs, Excel spreadsheets, [00:38:25] all that kind of stuff. So for me, that was an area where I got very interested and it was [00:38:30] helpful to get all these brochures, run the numbers. I ran the numbers for 25 practices [00:38:35] before we put in our first offer, and probably 50 before we actually, um, [00:38:40] bought the practice. So we were thinking.

[BOTH]: Again, looked.

Payman Langroudi: At 50 different practices.

Grant Goodstein: Oh, we didn’t look at it. We got [00:38:45] the.

[BOTH]: Request.

Grant Goodstein: The brochure for every practice and they give you the turnover for the past three years, [00:38:50] some of those breakdowns. But we actually visited 4 or 5 practices. It wasn’t a huge number. And [00:38:55] we put in an offer on on three of those practices.

Payman Langroudi: And the ones that you looked at, what you [00:39:00] put it off. But you weren’t the best offer someone else.

[BOTH]: Um, a couple of them.

Grant Goodstein: We were the best offer. [00:39:05] And, uh, we ultimately to tell a little bit of a funny story [00:39:10] is when we did go to Chirag, the owner of Perfect Smile, and say, hey, we [00:39:15] don’t really want to buy a practice and we’d love for it to be full of Munster Road. And he [00:39:20] said, no, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t sell them. It’s okay. It’s just we want to be transparent with [00:39:25] you that this is our plan. So okay, come back. Starting to [00:39:30] put in some offers on practices. Nothing’s accepted yet. I just want to check in again. Would you be interested [00:39:35] in selling? And you know, Chirag is a really funny guy. No. Absolutely not. [00:39:40] Call back the next day. Okay. I’ll give you a percentage if you want to [00:39:45] buy it to be my partner in the business said, um, I think [00:39:50] I think that’s not for us. I think we want to be able to really go in and execute our plan. And then we said, okay, we have [00:39:55] we have a number, we have an offer that’s accepted. So, um, Leia had built [00:40:00] to a point where she was representative of the majority of the turnover for the practice, I think he he saw [00:40:05] that, look, I don’t want to start over at Munster Road. And he ultimately said, okay, let’s [00:40:10] let’s do a deal. And he, uh, after a little bit of back and forth. Agreed. And again, he’s been really, [00:40:15] really kind. Even we had our autoclave go down one day and I gave him a call. I said, can we, can we [00:40:20] hop by a new King’s Road and do it? And he’s just been an absolute class act and, and [00:40:25] helping us. And he again, this was his. He describes it as his baby. This was where he started his.

[BOTH]: Business, [00:40:30] his original.

Payman Langroudi: Practice.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: Quite an empire. Yeah. Um, 20, 20 plus years ago. So he’s been, [00:40:35] he says, look, I want you guys to really be successful. And again, it works both ways, right? We [00:40:40] can refer patients back to the perfect smile practices. Almost all of our children get referred [00:40:45] over to their, their orthodontic, uh, practice in Putney. So it’s been, uh, [00:40:50] it was, it was a journey to get there. But we’re just so thrilled because some of these practices would have involved us, [00:40:55] involved us moving, including potentially out of London. And this is really somewhere that we again, we [00:41:00] got to we got to. Keep the relationships that she’s so treasured with her patients that she’d gotten to know over the [00:41:05] last years. And for us, we absolutely love. I mean, you know how great it is to live in West London and live in [00:41:10] in Fulham. So we’re so thrilled to be able to continue to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So [00:41:15] now going forward.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What changes are you making as far as patient journey? [00:41:20]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the obvious, the building works and you showed me and it’s beautiful. So [00:41:25] the waiting room is going to be a lot nicer than it was.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: So I think it’s again, [00:41:30] starting with, um, what’s the experience that we want to deliver to patients? Um, a special area [00:41:35] of interest for Leah is treating nervous patients, patients who have dental anxiety. I didn’t [00:41:40] realise this. I am not someone who’s personally anxious about going to the dentist. [00:41:45] Um, I, uh, 50%, a whole 50% of the population is [00:41:50] anxious about going to the dentist. Half. And of that, 10% of the population is [00:41:55] so anxious about going to the dentist that they just flat out don’t go.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, yeah, it’s phobic to where [00:42:00] I will not get anywhere near the deadlines. Dentists always will know, obviously, what I’m talking about. [00:42:05] It’s really about the only profession that is a pro would be considered appropriate to tell that person that you hate [00:42:10] them when you walk into the dentist. Oh, I hate the dentist. Like, no, you would never go into [00:42:15] a bakery and you say, oh my God, I hate the baker. Like it doesn’t happen in any other profession in the world that [00:42:20] I’m aware of. But we know that this is true. And we like to think about why and how can we help. So, [00:42:25] um, firstly being welcomed really warmly when you come in, we greet everyone [00:42:30] by name. We say, hey Payman, how are you doing today? Welcome into pearly whites. Uh, [00:42:35] can I just confirm you’re here for your 3 p.m. appointment with the hygienist? That’s great. [00:42:40] We’ve got some fun music going every day. Again, the little things really set the tone in our opinion. So [00:42:45] we’ve got, you know, the fun playlists, Spotify playlist. If anyone’s looking for it, it’s called classics that everyone [00:42:50] knows. So it’s the kind of patience that kind of get people’s.

[BOTH]: Name of it.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah.

[BOTH]: Classic. It’s not [00:42:55] our.

Grant Goodstein: Individual. It’s a playlist from Spotify classics that everyone knows. Good for [00:43:00] kids, good for older patients. Everyone. And then we think about, okay, what’s what? Don’t what [00:43:05] is it that people don’t like about coming to the dentist? There’s actually one thing about coming into a dental office. I [00:43:10] really historically, like didn’t like I don’t enjoy getting my teeth cleaned. I find it kind [00:43:15] of quite barbaric the traditional way, even if it’s with a hand scaler or an ultrasonic. I [00:43:20] had an injury to my front teeth growing up. So what that means is I have quite a bit of sensitivity. So that [00:43:25] cold water, when that hits my teeth, is like, oh my God, it’s extremely uncomfortable for me. I [00:43:30] hate the scratching. I get some build up around my gum line. It’s just not a nice [00:43:35] experience at all. And I think there has to be a better way. So I go out and start doing my research. Is there [00:43:40] a better way to clean your teeth? It actually turns out, yes, the better way to clean your.

[BOTH]: Teeth.

Grant Goodstein: Has GPT [00:43:45] that’s been invented? Why hasn’t every practice invested in GPT? Because the damn [00:43:50] machine costs £14,000. But we said we are very much in again. This is something that’s [00:43:55] been a big difference for me, learning about life in the UK versus life in the US. Investment [00:44:00] and risk and growth is very much encouraged in the US in a way that I think it’s not [00:44:05] here. I think a lot of practice owners are really, really, really afraid to take that leap [00:44:10] to say, okay, I’m going to spend £14,000. We’ve never offered this before. I have [00:44:15] no idea if anyone’s going to sign up for it. Are we really going to spend £14,000 on a [00:44:20] on a GB t machine from EMS? And by the way, the powder is like £100 for every [00:44:25] bottle that you use. It’s not cheap to offer it to your patients, but my belief is we can offer [00:44:30] it to our patients. We can offer it at a premium. Our standard clean is £89. We charge 129 [00:44:35] for the GB t, so it’s a £40 upgrade. And my belief is patients are going to try [00:44:40] it and they’re going to want to go for it and they’re never going to look back.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s an option.

[BOTH]: Yes.

Grant Goodstein: So that’s what we. Again thinking [00:44:45] about how do we shake things up and not disrupt the status quo too much. We don’t want to tell patients, [00:44:50] hey, you’re cleaning was 89. Now it’s 129 and you have no say in the matter. Those [00:44:55] are the kind of things that we think. Do businesses need some sort of support and goodwill from the community? [00:45:00] And we didn’t want to do that, but we wanted to firstly hire, um, clinicians [00:45:05] that were trained and experienced in it, and secondly, give it as an option to every [00:45:10] patient. We’d educate them, we’d tell them we’ll do a great clean regardless of which option you [00:45:15] choose. But there’s some real advantages to the CBT. So we when we were hiring our hygienists, [00:45:20] we would only consider hygienists that were, uh, Swiss Dental Academy certified. That was a hard requirement [00:45:25] for us. We invested in the machine within a month, we had 75% of our patients [00:45:30] opting for those updated cleans. And again, I mentioned bringing hygiene from one days a week [00:45:35] to three day a week to four days a week. Now five and going towards six. And hygiene has become one [00:45:40] of our top like by by turnover, it accounts for a really large [00:45:45] percentage of our turnover.

Grant Goodstein: And what we found, people come out and I’d say 95% of [00:45:50] people say, oh my God, that’s life changing. I will never go again. And I cannot tell you the amount of [00:45:55] people. We had a lovely patient who came in and he came out and gave us a five star Google review in the next day, his [00:46:00] mother called up on the phone, I’m the one who is answering the phone. He said. Anthony called. [00:46:05] He says, I must come in for your tea hygiene. When you give a great [00:46:10] experience, most people are quite happy to pay if the experience matches [00:46:15] the price. So our our goal is not to be the least expensive option. [00:46:20] Our goal is to be the best option at a fair price so we don’t. We don’t want to rip [00:46:25] people off. We want to make sure there’s always value, but we’re always going to aim to provide the very best experience. [00:46:30] And that’s our philosophy. And again, when we talk about in interviews, our goal is not to be good. Our [00:46:35] goal is not to be exceptional. Our goal is to deliver the best patient experience in the country.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:46:40] it’s interesting because understand the dentists [00:46:45] who don’t buy it insomuch as a normal scalar cost £500 [00:46:50] or something.

Grant Goodstein: Like a.

[BOTH]: Thousand now.

Grant Goodstein: But yeah, it’s certainly not 15.

[BOTH]: And [00:46:55] by the way, each of.

Grant Goodstein: The hand pieces are an additional £800 on top of that. And as I mentioned, you’ve [00:47:00] got this expensive powder, it’s not cheap and you have to charge a premium.

[BOTH]: In order to.

Payman Langroudi: Get the highlights. When [00:47:05] one dentist to another, I’ve asked dentists, you know, so what’s this GPT thing? [00:47:10] And they say, oh, it’s actually just it’s a scalar that’s like warm water. Yeah. And, uh, and you [00:47:15] go, well, what’s, what’s 15 times. Where’s the 15 x in that? Yeah. It doesn’t sound like it [00:47:20] makes sense. Yeah. But number one, they’ve been genius in the marketing. [00:47:25]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: They’re really.

[BOTH]: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Themselves to the profession. The message that if [00:47:30] if going to have your teeth cleaned is a lot more comfortable, that’s [00:47:35] worth 50 grand.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, that’s it’s such a big sign of what kind of practice [00:47:40] is it that, you know?

[BOTH]: Yeah. It’s a message you send to everyone. Every single.

Payman Langroudi: Patient goes [00:47:45] through.

[BOTH]: That. And clinicians, clinicians.

Grant Goodstein: Want to work with good equipment. My thought always is we’re not going to overpay [00:47:50] just because. But when we’re in the market for a piece of equipment, I’m going to say if we want to hire [00:47:55] an oral surgeon, the surgical motor that we have for this clinician is part of [00:48:00] the way that we communicate how seriously we take what you do. The same way about we inherited a practice [00:48:05] that was again, neighbourhood spot, been there 20 plus years. It hadn’t had that investment in [00:48:10] love that it needed. So we put a lot of money into making sure does the love [00:48:15] and care that we put into this practice, regardless of how much we put in, doesn’t matter [00:48:20] until the patient knows. So every decision we make has to be communicating [00:48:25] to our patients and to our clinicians and to our staff. We care about you [00:48:30] and we care about delivering you an amazing experience.

Payman Langroudi: Although there’s, you know, much [00:48:35] of good dentistry isn’t noticed by the patient. Yeah. You know, I mean, I guess to [00:48:40] the clinician, that’s where the communication would be.

[BOTH]: That’s why I’m saying.

Grant Goodstein: It’s difficult to show, right? Like taking [00:48:45] some extra steps. I know Leah like tells us again. For my very, uh, limited [00:48:50] Dental knowledge, she uses glumr for her. Uh, filings, which she tells me about [00:48:55] exactly for desensitising how she does that. A patient’s not obviously. Hopefully the result will be better and [00:49:00] they’ll have to come back less. But a patient doesn’t necessarily know about that extra step that we take in our [00:49:05] feelings that other practices don’t. But they do notice when they walk in and there’s new floors [00:49:10] and the bathroom is really well taken care of and all these different things. [00:49:15] So we have to do the little things and the big things, the invisible things, and it’s not one or the [00:49:20] other. It’s all of the above in my view.

Payman Langroudi: Do you find sometimes, you know, the way that [00:49:25] you’re sort of serving the community and there’s almost like a, you [00:49:30] have to be yes to everything kind of feeling.

[BOTH]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:49:35] yet there are situations where you need to say no.

[BOTH]: Yeah. I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Crossed that.

[BOTH]: Already. [00:49:40]

Grant Goodstein: Learning when and how to say no, um, is one of the most valuable things [00:49:45] that you can do and how you can deliver and know with care. And love [00:49:50] is also one of the most important things that we need to learn how to do. And [00:49:55] remembering that when you say no to people in our industry, which is a caring industry, particularly [00:50:00] in a, in a country where people aren’t used to paying for their health care, you [00:50:05] you have to recognise how you’re perceived. You have to recognise how you perceived. Again, one of [00:50:10] the examples that I would give of this is NHS registration, right? So we have [00:50:15] a lot of patients who are, frankly, more than we can really see on an annual basis, many of which who haven’t [00:50:20] been in, in in many years. But what that means is that it’s not easy to get an NHS appointment [00:50:25] in our practice. Even if you’re registered patient, you might wait two months, three months, four months. It’s not [00:50:30] by choice, it’s a reality of the NHS only allocates us a certain number of days, [00:50:35] right? If we. And this has happened in the practice previously, prior to our ownership, there’s been years where [00:50:40] Udas were completed in January, and you spent the last three months of the year not able to offer NHS [00:50:45] care. And we don’t feel like that’s the way we want to go about it. So we have only a certain number. [00:50:50] Certain hours between 10 and 4 in our day is reserved for NHS patients. If you want to come [00:50:55] early or late in the day, you can come on a private basis. But again, we send lots [00:51:00] of reminders to our patients. Some patients find it a little bit irritating, but we send a booking confirmation. [00:51:05] We send another reminder 72 hours in advance of their appointment.

Grant Goodstein: We have a 48 hour cancellation [00:51:10] policy. We ask that if you have to make a change to your cancellation, you let us know. So again, we send [00:51:15] the text message 72 hours before, which gives them a full 24 hours to let us know. Hey, [00:51:20] I realised I can’t come or something’s come up at work or something’s come up with child care. With that said, [00:51:25] when patients don’t show up, which happens from time to time, it does disrupt our ability [00:51:30] to deliver care. And by the way, also we’re in a business. I don’t know if many patients know this. Our [00:51:35] clinicians don’t get paid if people don’t show up. And it’s not a great way to keep clinicians happy. [00:51:40] If we have constant no shows in our diary. So we have to have policies and enforcement mechanisms [00:51:45] in place to make sure that patients aren’t able to abuse the system. Of course, life [00:51:50] happens, and it’s no problem if once every year or two years you’re, [00:51:55] um, you’re not able to make we totally slept through your appointment emergency. All [00:52:00] those things happen and we’re not going to be ridiculous, but we now have some controls in place and a process for [00:52:05] what happens the first time a patient misses an appointment. How do we communicate that to them? [00:52:10] What do we say? What happens the second time? What happens the third time? And there is now a point where patients [00:52:15] will get deregistered and they’ll lose their NHS place. And we give everyone plenty of warning. It’s not happening [00:52:20] on the first time, but being able to communicate with respect and help [00:52:25] patients understand the why not just sorry, we won’t see you anymore. Help [00:52:30] explain to them the reality and also what are the alternative options that are available [00:52:35] to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there’s nothing more annoying than someone telling you it’s policy. You.

[BOTH]: Yeah, exactly. [00:52:40]

Grant Goodstein: Again, if the answer is sorry, that’s just how it works here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:52:45]

Grant Goodstein: People don’t feel listened to.

[BOTH]: And don’t feel.

Grant Goodstein: Heard. But you can explain to them again, if like a constant [00:52:50] thing that’s happening is the decision. A patient has cancelled last minute or has [00:52:55] not showed up to their hygiene appointment. We can’t take a deposit for NHS work, but we can and do for [00:53:00] private work. Every time we have a decision to make, are we going to keep this deposit as the [00:53:05] late cancellation fee per their policy, or does it make sense to waive it? And again, we have a lot of discussions [00:53:10] as a team with our front of house staff of creating clear policy, but also creating exception [00:53:15] and escalation pathways. I want everyone in our team to have a heart [00:53:20] and be understanding, right? Like my answer is always if you’d be if you’re personally embarrassed [00:53:25] to tell this patient that they can’t have their deposit back based on what they told you, the answer should be absolutely, let’s [00:53:30] refund your deposit. The other thing that’s really important to us, and is rare and unique in the UK, [00:53:35] and as part of our USP, is the speed of which we do everything from an admin [00:53:40] perspective. In our practice, patients are shocked that when they say, hey, can’t make it, I have to cancel my appointment, I’m moving [00:53:45] out of the area. Can you refund my deposit? My aim is to have that deposit back in their bank account [00:53:50] within 60 within 100 and 20s. That’s and people are like, oh my God. Like, especially [00:53:55] in this country and especially in an industry like healthcare where people are used to waiting, people [00:54:00] are used to maybe a little bit of a grumpy receptionist not greeting you at the door. Part of the way we, we [00:54:05] set ourselves apart is by acting really fast. I think it shows the sense [00:54:10] of urgency we have in delivering great care. And a task done means we can then move [00:54:15] on to the next task of helping our patients. And that again, is for cases of, of of refund. [00:54:20] I think a great refund experience is one of the few opportunities to that makes patients [00:54:25] say, oh, these people actually do care.

[BOTH]: About doing the right thing. Yeah, you’re right.

Grant Goodstein: I’ll even say, [00:54:30] and I want to give credit to your team. Enlighten is the best in the industry that we’ve worked with in [00:54:35] terms of, of delivering a great experience to us, and that’s why we love.

[BOTH]: Nice [00:54:40] to hear with you guys.

Grant Goodstein: Boren on your team, who I email with all the time, is [00:54:45] like the sweetest, kindest person ever. We had a patient who signed up for enlightened, [00:54:50] paid for it in full, as we do when you sign up. And the next day he called up and [00:54:55] he’s like, I’m so, so sorry. I’m having buyer’s remorse. I don’t think there’s room in the budget for this. And I immediately [00:55:00] I said, let me see what I can do. Let me get right back to you. Reach out to Laura. And she’s like, yep, that’s been cancelled. Fully refunded. Don’t worry. [00:55:05] Voucher vouchers back in your account. Like that’s totally.

[BOTH]: Aligned. That’s how we want [00:55:10] to do things and.

Grant Goodstein: How the enlightened team does things. And again, those are the opportunities. When things [00:55:15] don’t go perfect or.

[BOTH]: Things come.

Grant Goodstein: Up, those are the opportunities to really show you care and that you’re [00:55:20] different.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. So I noticed you’re changing your practice management software.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [00:55:25]

Payman Langroudi: Why? So that you can access from the cloud.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: So we are [00:55:30] going to do things a bit differently than the traditional UK Dental practice. One thing is, again, I [00:55:35] come from the world of tech, and I’ve been a little bit surprised in learning about these practices, how so [00:55:40] many practices are still server based. I think so is still the leading, uh, software [00:55:45] on the market. R4 is what we inherited, um, in our practice, uh, making [00:55:50] sure we had the right tech to do, to operate the way we wanted was really, [00:55:55] really important from day one. And it was an area where I had expertise. So that goes down to every small [00:56:00] detail. So we replaced everything down to the internet connection coming into our practice, replaced it with gigabit [00:56:05] fibre. Uh, we replaced the phone system with the modern VoIP phone system [00:56:10] that could be accessed both in person and remotely, and made it easy for us to return missed calls [00:56:15] and answer voicemails and track. We have AI phone systems now that make it so that we get transcripts, [00:56:20] recording, and feedback on every single call that we take. We created. We don’t get great [00:56:25] cell service for whatever reason in our specific practice. So we put in Wi-Fi that had a guest Wi-Fi [00:56:30] network and works. I literally went sat on the toilet in our loo and made sure that the signal [00:56:35] strength was strong enough in there.

Grant Goodstein: It wasn’t. We added a second point to our mesh network so [00:56:40] that if someone’s on the loo and they want to scroll through Instagram on their phone, they’re able to do that. Like that’s [00:56:45] the level of attention to detail that we’ve paid in the decisions that we’ve made in [00:56:50] delivering a great patient experience. One of the ways we feel that we could deliver an amazing patient [00:56:55] experience is by being able to offer more resources and have more members [00:57:00] of our team than other comparable practices of, of a given size. There’s [00:57:05] some realities, and we may want to get into the realities of operating in the UK today. It’s [00:57:10] really hard to hire quality people in the dental industry at [00:57:15] a fair competitive wage. The business model does not work [00:57:20] that we can have ten folks in our office that are dedicated to helping people. So we’ve made [00:57:25] two decisions. One is we’re going to find the very best people to sit in our offices, and we’re going to pay those [00:57:30] folks a living wage. We are the only NHS dental practice in London that is Living [00:57:35] Wage Foundation accredited. We don’t pay the minimum wage, we don’t pay the national Living wage. We [00:57:40] actually pay the London Living Wage.

[BOTH]: Which is how much.

Grant Goodstein: Rate it’s just went from 13.85 to [00:57:45] £14. 80 is the new wage. So it’s about a good £3 above the minimum wage. And [00:57:50] again that’s our minimum. That’s what we pay. For example, a trainee nurse. We have members of our staff who make [00:57:55] significantly more than that. The other thing is, okay, it’s going to be [00:58:00] really hard to hire folks in the UK in our office. And by the way, we’re in, as you described it, a [00:58:05] neighbourhood storefront. We don’t have a manager’s office or anything like that, a lot of space. So one of the things [00:58:10] that we’re going to do is start hiring remote folks to join our team. So looking internationally as well, we’re [00:58:15] actually in the process right now of hiring someone in South Africa to join our team as a patient services [00:58:20] coordinator. But if you want to have someone that’s going to help us answer the phones, help us respond to patient [00:58:25] emails, help us book and manage appointments, that person cannot do that if they have [00:58:30] server. If you have server based software and a traditional landline, you need to have [00:58:35] VoIP systems and you have to have everything in the cloud as far as your PM’s. So we [00:58:40] were again, I don’t know what policy is for the podcast about talking about specific vendors.

[BOTH]: It’s cool.

Grant Goodstein: To [00:58:45] talk.

[BOTH]: About.

Payman Langroudi: So you went with K stack?

[BOTH]: Yeah, we went.

Grant Goodstein: With Care.

[BOTH]: Stack.

Payman Langroudi: Did you look at Dental as well?

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: I’m going [00:58:50] to be slightly controversial on the podcast and that I really, really, really don’t like Henry Schein personally. [00:58:55] I’ve had a number of experiences in dealing with them and their team that made me feel like they [00:59:00] are not very customer centric, and that they are in the business of extracting maximum profit rather [00:59:05] than, uh, rather than delivering a great experience. Which led me to write straight [00:59:10] into the arms of Care stack. The timing was really great. We particularly enjoyed connecting with Adrian [00:59:15] Dre, who I’m not sure if you’ve had him on the podcast.

[BOTH]: Before.

Grant Goodstein: But a great, great guy and a great character [00:59:20] and we just got the sense that they were one, they were not in the market position that Dental was [00:59:25] or new in the UK, but we had the we had the perception that they cared a lot more [00:59:30] and that they were building a lot faster. When we talked to Dental, we didn’t hear a lot of exciting plans [00:59:35] that they had for the future. Whereas when we talked to care, we got this huge roadmap of [00:59:40] all the innovations they were set to make and improvements that were set to make. And we’re seeing a lot of those come to [00:59:45] come to fruition already that have been really helpful. Yeah. So we have voice tech and care stack.

Payman Langroudi: Explain voice stack [00:59:50] for someone who doesn’t.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah. So voice stack is a VoIP phone system. So that means basically, even though you have a traditional [00:59:55] landline number, it’s actually connected via Ethernet or Wi-Fi through a, through what they call a VoIP [01:00:00] and IP phone. And we’re able to take our calls both from a traditional handset. [01:00:05] But I can also answer calls from a computer. So I’ll give you an example. We did a little refurb [01:00:10] we had to shut for two weeks for the first phase of the refurb of the practice. In November, we went [01:00:15] back to the States to celebrate Thanksgiving with our family. We were able to set a voice message that let all our patients [01:00:20] know, hey, we’re currently closed. Feel free to email us or leave voice messages for emergencies. [01:00:25] And every morning I’m setting my alarm for 6 a.m. in Los Angeles for eight hours, behind waking [01:00:30] up and answering all our voicemails and missed calls for the day, as well as our emails again. Those are the things [01:00:35] that I think folks aren’t probably used to in the UK, that a practice is shut. It’s a weekend. It’s a Sunday [01:00:40] where we’re very much all in on doing everything to go above and beyond for our patients. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: So listen, there are lots of practices that do all of this stuff. Yeah there are. They [01:00:50] tend to be more fully private.

Grant Goodstein: I was going to say I don’t think.

Grant Goodstein: Neighbourhood or like maybe if you’re [01:00:55] if you’re talking about on Harley Street or those.

Payman Langroudi: In every town in every town there are, although they’re [01:01:00] still not the majority by any means. Yeah, maybe, maybe I’m seeing the one the enlightened users enlightened a high end product. [01:01:05]

Grant Goodstein: I think that’s probably the case.

Payman Langroudi: There is that there is that. Yeah. But you don’t see it with with mixed [01:01:10] practices very much. Yeah. So there’s a difference. But my, my feeling is that, [01:01:15] you know, you’re going to be successful enough that you’re going to regret the NHS piece. [01:01:20] And maybe at that point, you’ll have to think about phasing it out because you’re going to just the [01:01:25] the real estate would be better used privately.

Grant Goodstein: It’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: Than NHS. That’s my hunch. [01:01:30] That’s what’s gonna happen in the next five years. Let’s say.

Grant Goodstein: That’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: For you guys. But the the [01:01:35] the enthusiasm you’ve got is exciting. Yeah. You know that that I [01:01:40] hope it keeps on going, man, because, you know, you’re young and it’s it’s when you’re young, it’s [01:01:45] being enthusiastic. It’s a big.

Grant Goodstein: Thing. I think it’s.

Grant Goodstein: Who I am, to be honest. And I think it’s, I think it’s something that [01:01:50] I really value in my amazing wife, Leah as well were the kind of people that we’re both like [01:01:55] very traditional extroverts, and we get our energy from being from around other people. And we both [01:02:00] describe ourselves as question masters. And this is just as in our work life.

Grant Goodstein: Yes, we ask.

Grant Goodstein: A [01:02:05] million.

Grant Goodstein: Questions when.

Grant Goodstein: We’re out to dinner with friends. Like sometimes like we’re like, [01:02:10] oh my God, how was your holiday to Oman? I can’t believe you were there. Those pictures look so great. What’s going on with your family? [01:02:15] How are you? Like, we’re the kind of people who just love to learn about other people and hear what’s going on in their [01:02:20] life. So I think when you have that genuine enthusiasm and curiosity for [01:02:25] day to day life. Not even anything crazy. But just like when patient comes in, it’s not about, [01:02:30] hey, do you have an appointment? Can I get you booked in? It’s like, Happy Christmas. [01:02:35] Where are you going to be for like, it’s having those genuine conversations. And again, [01:02:40] we’re not everyone is wired this way, but Lee and I both love having those conversations with anyone. [01:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: And are you sitting at a desk every day?

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, right now, almost every day. I’d say four and a half [01:02:50] days a week now. When we bought the practice, as I mentioned, there was a lot of turnover in the team. So [01:02:55] the practice actually couldn’t be open without me behind the desk. Um, because no one else [01:03:00] knew how to take the payments, essentially because the entirety of the kind of front [01:03:05] of house team decided that they didn’t want to remain with the practice at the time that we took over. [01:03:10] So, um, yeah, I’m still behind the desk and I think that’s also one of the most underlooked functions, the [01:03:15] front of house function and reception. I cannot tell you the amount of difference in terms of turnover [01:03:20] to the practice and patient experience that having someone who is a conversation starter [01:03:25] rather than a question answerer has. And that’s the number one piece of training that I do [01:03:30] with my. And I’m a very big believer in. In sales, we call them [01:03:35] mocks or role plays, but simulating conversations and practising the conversations that [01:03:40] you’re going to have before you actually have them.

Payman Langroudi: As an example.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah. So if a patient comes in and says, [01:03:45] are you accepting any new NHS patients?

Payman Langroudi: The answer is, [01:03:50] yeah, no, unfortunately we’re not. Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: So um, most people [01:03:55] would say no, sorry. Have a great day. Yeah. The answer for us is um, [01:04:00] hey, by the way, welcome in. What’s your name? What’s the person’s name first before you start the the [01:04:05] the the conversation. Okay. Are you are you new to the area? Most of [01:04:10] the time when people walk into a dental practice for the first time and ask about a new patient, they’re likely have [01:04:15] moved into the area. There could be another answer, but okay. Oh, where’d you move from? Start [01:04:20] a conversation. So as far as taking on new patients, we have a few remaining [01:04:25] spaces for children on the NHS, which we do. Unfortunately, due to capacity reasons, we are [01:04:30] full on the NHS. I’m curious, do you have something in mind? Is like are you wanting to go to the dentist [01:04:35] for a specific reason or are you just just wanting a general check-up? Is there a particular treatment [01:04:40] or pain that you’re having? You know, I want a general dentist, [01:04:45] but I’ve also, I don’t like the colour of my teeth. I don’t like or I have a lot of pain in my back tooth and [01:04:50] my wisdom tooth, I. The last. Dennis said I should really get it extracted. I just haven’t gotten around to it yet. [01:04:55] Okay, so okay, tell me, when did you last see a dentist? Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:05:00] a relationship is built already with.

Grant Goodstein: I hear what you’re saying. We don’t have an NHS appointment. [01:05:05] The truth is what you’ll save in being an NHS patient for some private patient. Nhs [01:05:10] Check-up at £27 for a private Check-up £75 here. And we [01:05:15] like the idea of being transparent and having an inclusive pricing model. Lots of practices. You go in to [01:05:20] check ups cheap, but they’re going to add on lots of things. X-rays are included in our prices for our check-ups. We’re not [01:05:25] going to charge you extra for an X-ray. So what you’re actually looking at is an additional 50, let’s [01:05:30] call it £48 twice a year. If cost is the actual absolute most priority. [01:05:35] You might be best going for the NHS, but if you’re looking for a great experience, I know that [01:05:40] we could help you and it’s frankly not going to be. If you’re telling me you’re looking for private treatments that are private and [01:05:45] not available on the NHS. Anyways, frankly, you’re not going to see much of a price difference here, so I’ll leave the decision to [01:05:50] you if you if you’d like us to get you booked in and we can get you started for a whitening consultation [01:05:55] or a consultation with our oral surgeon, I’d be happy to do that. If not, I’d be very [01:06:00] happy to recommend. There’s not any directly in Fulham, but there are some practices throughout West and southwest London [01:06:05] that I’d be happy to let you know are taking on new patients on an NHS basis. So again, [01:06:10] educating, learning, educating and giving a patient a dignified [01:06:15] choice.

Payman Langroudi: This sort of script comes very naturally to you because in the US it’s [01:06:20] so much of that. Yeah. Do you find this resistance like your difficulty in getting that over to [01:06:25] a UK person?

[TRANSITION]: A bit, a bit. It could be a.

Grant Goodstein: Little bit more challenging. I think any time you’re trying to [01:06:30] roll things out it’s always training is the um is the hassle. One thing we screen [01:06:35] for is people who are eager to learn. So we never expect anyone on day one [01:06:40] to be perfect. Um, again, we have a great new practice manager with experience in the industry who we hired [01:06:45] him not because he’s not good at the compliance and organisational things, but we really hired him for his [01:06:50] presence and caring nature more than we did for maybe the typical things that people look at a practice [01:06:55] manager for. We’re also training up on cross training. We want to eventually cross train all of our nurses. [01:07:00] We’re cross training one of our nurses on reception right now, so it’s been fun. We’ve both had chances to work with him on [01:07:05] reception and train him. And one of the things you have to do is you have to invest time and energy in creating the resources, [01:07:10] right? We can’t expect, especially as we think about we want to grow this business and be a bigger business [01:07:15] someday. I can’t do it all, and in our practice manager can’t even do now. We have [01:07:20] multiple page guides that I’ve developed on. Here’s how you. Well, [01:07:25] my best, my best friend in doing this is AI. I would love [01:07:30] if more folks in the Dental industry thought about learning to apply AI. [01:07:35] I am come from the tech world so everyone knows and uses ChatGPT and Gemini [01:07:40] and perplexity.

Grant Goodstein: I’m shocked when I realise in most kind of folks who aren’t in that [01:07:45] industry how new it is to most people. So it’s unbelievable what you can do with [01:07:50] a couple of thought starters and things that you want to do. Ai can deliver this incredible product. It’s not [01:07:55] 100% of the way there, but you can get from 0% to 80% or from that first 2% [01:08:00] to 80% in about five minutes. And then you can spend time refining the [01:08:05] rest. So we have a guide of this is how we triage emergency appointments. This is how we take deposits. [01:08:10] This is how we again, all the common situations that we experience. And again, there’s still much [01:08:15] more to do. Um, we certainly don’t have it all figured out, but we’ve thought about how [01:08:20] do we document and make these processes repeatable and have a little leaflet that can sit in front of our reception [01:08:25] team, especially as they’re getting started and getting trained. And the other thing I’m trying to really get into [01:08:30] our team’s mind is it’s always okay to say, I don’t know the answer. Let me get back to you and [01:08:35] check with someone who knows people. It’s really refreshing to people. Actually, people are afraid like, oh my God, [01:08:40] this person will judge me because I don’t know the answer.

Payman Langroudi: I’d much rather hear. I don’t know than someone making it up.

Grant Goodstein: Exactly. [01:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: And that comes across generally when someone doesn’t really know the answer to that question. [01:08:50] Um, I’m interested in the sports kind of analogy, insomuch as, I [01:08:55] don’t know, we start a company and you try and you try and make it fun and, and then [01:09:00] sort of almost, almost the highest level of sort of, uh, working [01:09:05] out for me was like, oh, we feel like one big family here. And, and, but then [01:09:10] you realise as you go that it’s not really a family. It’s not, you know, like [01:09:15] the very nature of a family is that you can’t expel people from a family.

Grant Goodstein: So are you a [01:09:20] are you a have you. You sound like someone who’s read the Netflix culture deck or the No.

[BOTH]: Rules rules book.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [01:09:25] actually I’ve actually read a summary of the Netflix.

[BOTH]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It didn’t come from there. It didn’t come from [01:09:30] there. I actually, I was talking to, um, from, uh, Pearl, Pearl [01:09:35] AI, you know, the one that.

Grant Goodstein: I’ve heard good things about them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And, and, uh, it’s [01:09:40] a general thing, isn’t it, that to treat your business like a pro sports team, the right [01:09:45] person, the right job and the team being the ultimate thing. And do [01:09:50] you do you have that? Like, I mean, you said this, this coach really inspired you. Yeah. But [01:09:55] sports analogies that do cross over into work.

[BOTH]: Yeah I agree.

Grant Goodstein: We’re [01:10:00] we’re a high performing team. And what that means exactly as you said, you know, say, grandpa, [01:10:05] you’re pissing me off today. So you’re out of the family. I mean, some people might do [01:10:10] that stuff, but I’m not from a family where that happens, but um, yeah, it’s, there’s [01:10:15] standards on our team. And again, it’s not appropriate to go into details, but there have been not, not many, [01:10:20] but there have been folks since our in our journey who have not met those standards and are no longer part [01:10:25] of our team. Um, so we enforce and uphold those standards every day. And there is, [01:10:30] again, we are lucky to have our team, but we are building an environment where people should also, [01:10:35] we believe, feel lucky to be a part of something that’s special. Again, we don’t have a [01:10:40] sense of entitlement around that and it goes through our actions that we do every day. But when you [01:10:45] build something that’s special, it’s a it’s a two way street for sure.

[BOTH]: Yeah. [01:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: For sure. So you’re telling me you have had to fire people already?

[BOTH]: I have.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:10:55] tough man. It’s so early on.

Grant Goodstein: Not nice. It’s not nice to do, but it’s a. Again, if you remember, the [01:11:00] ultimate obligation is to.

[BOTH]: The business.

Grant Goodstein: The business, and not only the business to the patients. [01:11:05] If you have people that aren’t putting patients first or aren’t putting, uh, aren’t treating [01:11:10] other members of staff in the right way. That all comes back to creating an environment that’s that’s [01:11:15] not favourable and ideal for a patient.

[BOTH]: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:11:20] like to talk about mistakes on this.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So generally with the dentists it would be a clinical error. [01:11:25]

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But with you I guess it’s going to be a different type of error. Yeah. What what what comes [01:11:30] to mind. A mistake that other people can learn from.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Grant Goodstein: Um, I think sometimes, especially as a [01:11:35] business owner, you can have moments where you’re a little bit too focussed on the business [01:11:40] and the process and less focussed on the person. Um, it’s been very few [01:11:45] and far between. Thankfully, we’re really lucky that the vast majority of patient feedback has been fabulous, but [01:11:50] we had a patient who, who came in who was not thrilled with the outcome of her appointment. [01:11:55] Not through any malintent or anything that clinically negligent, but she didn’t [01:12:00] get the experience that she deserved, and that was very readily apparent to me. It was a communication [01:12:05] issue more than anything, but the communication wasn’t ideal for this patient [01:12:10] to to give. To make a long story short, it was a patient who was told she needed [01:12:15] to come back for a second appointment with the hygienist, but it wasn’t communicated in the right [01:12:20] way. And when we went to ask her for the deposit for the next appointment, she was quite shocked [01:12:25] and my immediate instinct went to, oh, this is [01:12:30] our policy. We’d like to offer you 50% off for [01:12:35] the next appointment. And ultimately, she felt completely because my instinct wasn’t [01:12:40] to say, you’re right. It was like, well, I’m sorry this happened, but let’s [01:12:45] do this goodwill gesture to reduce the cost of your next appointment by £50. She didn’t [01:12:50] feel heard and she didn’t feel understood. And that was an enormous the patient left really unhappy. [01:12:55]

Grant Goodstein: And I really, really felt bad about it. And I really, really regretted the way that I handled [01:13:00] it. I thought about the process and not about the person. It was a person who’s going through a very difficult pregnancy. [01:13:05] She had shared with me. There was a lot of other factors going on, and I should have just set [01:13:10] money aside and did the right thing, which was offer her in a complimentary [01:13:15] appointment for the day and a complimentary appointment for the next time. So but anyway, what [01:13:20] I did learn was it’s not never too late to make things right. And I thought about it that evening and [01:13:25] Leah and I had a conversation about it, and I sent her a follow up email and gave her a phone call the next [01:13:30] day. And I said, I’ve given more thought to your situation. And we were completely in the wrong with how we handled [01:13:35] this. I want to apologise to you. I understand if you don’t want to come back, but if you do, we’ve [01:13:40] refunded the charge automatically through your card already and we’d like to offer you a complimentary appointment. [01:13:45] And if you don’t mind, we have your address on file. Would it be okay if we sent you flowers to say that [01:13:50] we’re sorry? Um. And she came back. She was back the next week, and. [01:13:55]

[BOTH]: With a big.

Grant Goodstein: Smile.

[BOTH]: On her face.

Grant Goodstein: Now she’s got a child that she’s so excited to bring to [01:14:00] Leah for the child’s first up. So I would [01:14:05] encourage people to remember we’re all humans and [01:14:10] to make sure that you take care of the person first. And you always, always make sure that person feels [01:14:15] understood, because there’s no way that 100, £150 will be [01:14:20] remembered in the grand scheme of our business, but the relationship that could be created or destroyed. [01:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, the massive opportunity that every complaint brings. Yeah, it’s [01:14:30] it’s yeah, I guess in a way you were kind of addressing that in the, in the first [01:14:35] instance.

[BOTH]: But it was.

Grant Goodstein: A half measure.

[BOTH]: It was a half measure.

Grant Goodstein: It was not taking it seriously. It’s like, [01:14:40] what’s the minute I thought in my head, what’s the minimum I could do to make this go away? Not how [01:14:45] do I actually make this right? And that was I’m glad I learned the mistake then. This was [01:14:50] early on in the first two months of our our journey, because I now have a very different philosophy [01:14:55] for how we deal with, again, we’ve been lucky enough that we haven’t had any like, like formal or GDC style complaints, [01:15:00] but there have been a couple of patients who have voiced displeasure about something or the [01:15:05] other, about their experience from one patient wasn’t happy that we didn’t have the sign for the bathroom in the clinic, or a [01:15:10] bin as readily available. Like again, some smaller and some that are bigger, like the one.

[BOTH]: That all the [01:15:15] things.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve done differently regarding the purchase, the, the, the makeover.

[BOTH]: Um. [01:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: Because I mean, if you’ve had a good experience with builders, then I really feel like.

[BOTH]: Yeah, [01:15:25] that’s different if I, if I can give a plug, um, UV.

Grant Goodstein: Who owns, uh, DeVoe [01:15:30] Interiors again, someone else you should have on your, on your podcast. Just great stand up guy. [01:15:35] Um, I think one of the things that we have had a little bit of trouble with is we’ve [01:15:40] had let stuff get away from us a bit in assuming that everyone has [01:15:45] all the context when they don’t. Um, we wound up again, we were working with a combination of the Hague [01:15:50] design team and equipment team, who’s amazing, and UV who is doing the actual [01:15:55] building work and executing their vision. And there were a couple examples of things where we got [01:16:00] the quote back and we’re like, what? How is it this much? And it’s like, well, we designed this amazing custom [01:16:05] planter that you wanted. And I’m like, well, not for the planters, not for 10,000. Like it does [01:16:10] look beautiful, but it’s not £10,000 beautiful. And I think one of the lessons we’ve learned there is [01:16:15] it is we have to be incredibly specific in everything [01:16:20] that we do. You have to be really vigilant.

[BOTH]: Particularly when you make a change what.

Grant Goodstein: You want and [01:16:25] what you don’t. And the other thing I learned is no matter how great the people are that you [01:16:30] work with, you as the business owner have to drive. There’s a great tech executive who [01:16:35] I think is really fascinating, a guy named Frank Slootman. He was the CEO of snowflake, which is a $100 [01:16:40] billion tech kind of cloud company. And his thing is the, the, the [01:16:45] CEO or the whoever is running the business, that person’s job is to drive urgency [01:16:50] every day. Because if someone is not there cracking the whip and that doesn’t necessarily [01:16:55] mean in a cruel, cruel way. But if you are not pushing things forward, [01:17:00] nothing happens in your business. That is the death of the speed that can separate a great business [01:17:05] from an average one. So for me, my reminder is don’t be afraid to be annoying. Follow [01:17:10] up with the design team every day. Follow up with the builders every day. If they need to be reminded [01:17:15] 2 or 3 times. I’ve got to do that 2 or 3 times. What’s going on with the sign? Because if [01:17:20] I forget to email the guy to do the shopfront sign, as I did for 3 or 4 weeks, no progress was made [01:17:25] and that was entirely lost. We’re five and a half months in without the sign. Even though I emailed, I got [01:17:30] five quotes. I decided who we went with. I forgot to drive the follow up in the sense of urgency, which [01:17:35] means we’re still five months in.

[BOTH]: Without our new sign.

Payman Langroudi: Particularly with building works, right? And I’m very [01:17:40] guilty of that as well. I kind of want to. I just want it to go away and build itself. Yeah. [01:17:45] But but then do you also take that onto a day to day?

[BOTH]: Oh, it has.

Grant Goodstein: To be everything. It has to be with hiring. [01:17:50] It has to be every single operational change, whether that’s implementing a new practice [01:17:55] management system and phone system. As we had ordering a new and signing a new intranet, [01:18:00] Uh, negotiating. Uh, associate agreements, uh, discussing, [01:18:05] uh, creating again, everything. It’s, it’s been eye opening to be a business owner [01:18:10] for the first time and to think, oh, my God, everything that’s happening around me only happened because [01:18:15] there was some guy or some woman who made it happen.

[BOTH]: You do. [01:18:20] These things do not happen. You seem incredibly.

Payman Langroudi: Seasoned, though, for a first time. It’s interesting.

[BOTH]: No, it just sounds. [01:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s in your blood or something. You know, you do seem very seasoned, man. You do seem very seasoned. [01:18:30] Um, considering you’re only. What are you, six months in?

[BOTH]: Five and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness me. [01:18:35] You should have seen me six months. It was all sorts of problems, though. Um, [01:18:40] no, it’s nice to see that. It’s nice to see that. You know, I think you’re going to be very successful. [01:18:45] Um. And you sound like you’re enjoying it and you sound like you’re, [01:18:50] you know, happy.

[BOTH]: I love.

Grant Goodstein: It. I mentioned earlier that I hit a point in my life where, [01:18:55] um, I was not thrilled with my career and I was kind of feeling depressed about [01:19:00] it. Honestly, I felt like rudderless and I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And it’s been so refreshing [01:19:05] to start this journey, and I feel like I really have a sense of purpose every day. I think especially [01:19:10] in tech, right? And the world’s heading to a more remote world and this and that. When [01:19:15] you are going in person, to a physical place and delivering care to your [01:19:20] neighbours, I mean, it just what could be more motivating than that, [01:19:25] like, than making your neighbours feel good about themselves, helping [01:19:30] your neighbours feel healthy, having conversation with you, with your team that you really like spending time [01:19:35] with every day. It’s just like I have this new found purpose to my day to day routine that [01:19:40] I think, uh, I mean, I wish I could have done this earlier, but I’m loving it so far. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: So what do you reckon if like a, like a optimistic estimate of when you [01:19:50] think you’re gonna grow?

[BOTH]: I mean, I’d love my vision that I have.

Grant Goodstein: In my head is.

[BOTH]: 20. [01:19:55]

Grant Goodstein: 27 will be a year that we can grow, whether it’s expand the physical footprint in our current neighbourhood [01:20:00] or which is my first. My first preference, there’s some difficulty. And again, I [01:20:05] mentioned investing in growth. Um, when Leah and I purchased the practice, we had £2,000 [01:20:10] left, um, in our bank account and rent was due the next month. So if [01:20:15] we didn’t put a positive balance in the first month, we weren’t able to make rent. So we [01:20:20] were fully tapped out when we did this. So we don’t. Everything that we’ve really invested has been out [01:20:25] of cash flow from the business, and we’ve taken on significant debt not only to buy the business, but to the [01:20:30] building works. All that stuff is largely debt financed. And one of the great things about working in [01:20:35] the dental industry is that they call it what a green light industry, I think, which means banks are [01:20:40] quite happy to.

[BOTH]: Lend.

Grant Goodstein: And at quite affordable rates. So it’s been really nice [01:20:45] because we can now afford to have these, uh, again, it was a calculated bet [01:20:50] and we made some assumptions that worked out really, really well in terms of some of those risks that we were going to take. [01:20:55] For those reasons, it may be difficult without the two years of, uh, of [01:21:00] accounts to get that next loan for, to continue to grow the business. [01:21:05] But I think we’re optimistic that 2027 so we’ll have one more year to really execute [01:21:10] and operate before we start thinking about, um, expansion as a next chapter.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds [01:21:15] amazing man. It’s been a pleasure having you.

[BOTH]: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to [01:21:20] end with the usual, um, question.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. [01:21:25] Actually, before I do that, um, what’s your favourite business book?

Grant Goodstein: Favourite [01:21:30] business book. That’s one that I really love that I mentioned recently that I, that we just, I [01:21:35] mentioned to you in this conversation is no rules rules, which is written by, um, Reed Hastings, [01:21:40] who’s a founder of Netflix. And Aaron Aaron Myers, I think is her name, who’s an amazing [01:21:45] business professor at Insead in Paris, who I actually had a chance to see speak about her previous [01:21:50] book, which is another good one called The Culture Map. Um, when I was working at Twitter, she spoke at one of our conferences [01:21:55] over there. Um, I really, really, really, um, it’s [01:22:00] a very interesting different culture at Netflix that they have. It’s a very performance oriented [01:22:05] culture. It’s not as warm and fuzzy a culture as some of the other tech companies [01:22:10] are known for happening. And they were very intentional about the way that they built their company in a way that’s [01:22:15] very inspiring to me. Um, that’s a really good one. Again, I’m a little bit of a Warren Buffett [01:22:20] file. So the, the intelligent investor, which is the, uh, Benjamin Graham book that [01:22:25] was his professor at Columbia Business School who wrote it. So that’s an old book. Now we’re talking about a book that’s [01:22:30] getting close to 100 years old. That’s a classic if you want to learn more about value investing. [01:22:35]

[BOTH]: Um, those are two.

Payman Langroudi: Is there any performance related, uh, pay [01:22:40] at the practice?

Grant Goodstein: Um, not, I mean, all of our clinicians are on [01:22:45] a.

[BOTH]: Sliding scale.

Grant Goodstein: Or on a, on a split. So they, it’s.

[BOTH]: A.

Payman Langroudi: Fixed one or a sliding.

[BOTH]: One. [01:22:50]

Grant Goodstein: Some are on different.

[BOTH]: Arrangements.

Grant Goodstein: Between the two of those, but everyone is incentivised [01:22:55] based on their production. Who are the clinicians, dentists and.

[BOTH]: Hygienists.

Payman Langroudi: And the. [01:23:00]

[BOTH]: Clinicians?

Grant Goodstein: Right now, we don’t because we’re in a place where we’re still learning what that looks like, but it’s absolutely [01:23:05] part of our vision for 2026 to add some sort of annual incentive. [01:23:10]

[BOTH]: Program for employees.

Payman Langroudi: I keep forgetting.

[BOTH]: How early, but yeah, we’re.

Grant Goodstein: Five months in. And frankly, [01:23:15] cashflow has been a really, really, really big. So again, we, our strong firm believers [01:23:20] in to attract the best people, you have to pay really well. So again, our vision is [01:23:25] to be one of the best paying dental practices in London for dental nurses and for [01:23:30] um, our employed staff. Um, but I had these conversations and [01:23:35] that was one of the points of friction when people came in was that people wanted big raises and I said, [01:23:40] I would love nothing more to give you this raise, but let me walk you through the state of the business today [01:23:45] and what that means. My plan. And I told people I have. I spoke [01:23:50] with three of the members of the team who asked for significant raises. We did give a raise, [01:23:55] but we weren’t prepared to meet their demand from day one. For each of them, I mapped out, this [01:24:00] is how we can get you to the number that you want within six months. I’m not guaranteeing that it will happen, but this is my vision. [01:24:05] We’re going to add more days of hygiene. We’re going to add more specialists. We’re going to do this to to make sure [01:24:10] that the diaries are fully booked on a daily basis. These are all the different things. We’re going to change our pricing structure a bit [01:24:15] here and there. Two of the three told me to go fuck myself and and left one, [01:24:20] our head nurse said, I am all in. We gave him that raise that [01:24:25] he wanted, plus more within 60 days of purchasing the practice because the [01:24:30] what we said, what we believed in, what we said we were going to do actually happened. And it’s been [01:24:35] he’s like, practically again, I know we talked about it team, but Sal, our head nurse, is like a member [01:24:40] of our family at this point. He’s someone who is so invaluable as a leader in our practice. [01:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Amazing man. Let’s get to the final question. Fantasy dinner party. [01:24:50]

Grant Goodstein: Yeah. Okay. Yes. Three.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Grant Goodstein: Okay. Once my wife, Leah. [01:24:55] Um.

Payman Langroudi: She’s not.

Grant Goodstein: Having it. No, she’s. She’s my guest. Really important. Uh, you [01:25:00] don’t have to have it, but I’m telling you. Because I think something that makes it really special for us is.

Payman Langroudi: A fantasy dinner [01:25:05] party. It’s not a dinner party. It’s a fantasy dinner party.

Grant Goodstein: Why would I.

Payman Langroudi: Not? I’m not accepting.

Grant Goodstein: I’m not. Why would I [01:25:10] not want my favourite person in the world at dinner?

Payman Langroudi: I’m okay. Because you have dinner with her every night.

Grant Goodstein: I know, but what if I’m having this [01:25:15] special party? Why would I not want her to be there?

Payman Langroudi: I’m sorry.

Grant Goodstein: Okay. Next person I’m going to give you is. I’m [01:25:20] extremely close with my grandfather. He’s 90 years old. Yeah. Um, he talks about the kind of the [01:25:25] entrepreneurial lineage lineage in my family. He was.

Payman Langroudi: The what.

Grant Goodstein: Did he do first? So he was someone [01:25:30] who grew up in quite a poor family in Los Angeles. Um, he was born in the 1930s, [01:25:35] and his father was kind of like always did odds and ends. He like helped [01:25:40] measure suits and worked in a factory as a machinist, was a very like, hardscrabble [01:25:45] kind of guy who just wanted a better life for his kids, and my grandfather [01:25:50] came up and wasn’t a very serious student, but was a very hard worker. He didn’t never went to university. [01:25:55] He started about 5 or 6 businesses, including a clothing store in Los Angeles. That all [01:26:00] failed. And my grandma always describes the first ten years of their marriage is extremely miserable [01:26:05] because they could barely pay their rent in their house, and they had to go to family [01:26:10] members and say, can you help out with with holiday gifts for the kids this year? And it was a [01:26:15] very difficult existence, but they just never gave up. And my grandfather came to learn in the early [01:26:20] 1970s about, um, he was at the time selling tape, not the most [01:26:25] glamorous business, like duct tape, Sellotape, duct tape, all different kinds of things. [01:26:30] And he was at a company that sold this tape to people who needed it, and [01:26:35] he somehow came to learn that it would be possible to bring in [01:26:40] tape from different parts of the world at a way better [01:26:45] price than he could get it.

Grant Goodstein: So at that time it was happening in Japan. So he found out if [01:26:50] he was selling tape for for $0.25 a roll in the States, he [01:26:55] had to pay $0.15 a roll. And if he imported from Japan, he’d pay $0.03 a roll. So what he could [01:27:00] do is offer it, undercut the price and do more. So he he started buying tape and then [01:27:05] from Japan and just using every penny of his savings to, to order the [01:27:10] order the tape, sell it. And then he could put in a bigger order. Then he could put in a bigger order. And then he started expanding [01:27:15] the business to where he really got to was tools. So he started importing tools and he was travelling [01:27:20] through these years. He was spending about three months, a year away from his family, travelling through Asia, first in [01:27:25] Japan, then into Taiwan. And then later he, he was, uh, Richard Nixon was the first American [01:27:30] president to visit China in 1974, I think within 6 to 18 months, my grandfather was [01:27:35] in China trying to figure out how to work with factories there. So he wound up selling to, you know, famous US [01:27:40] stores like Home Depot and things like that. So he wound up kind of building this, this, this business [01:27:45] from really nothing. So I admire him so much.

Payman Langroudi: Forget China in 74. [01:27:50] Yeah, today’s equivalent of that would be Mars. And people [01:27:55] don’t realise that.

Grant Goodstein: He always describes himself. He says, I was not the smartest person in business. [01:28:00] Um, but what I was is the person willing to to put up with the most maximum [01:28:05] pain and discomfort. This was in the years where when you were travelling through through China, you were [01:28:10] taking a coal driven plane, which he describes it as being almost suffocating the the [01:28:15] fumes from the coal coming out of the train. And people would be cooking on open [01:28:20] fires on the train, like killing a chicken and cooking it. Like he says, it [01:28:25] was like in the hotel, a single person.

Payman Langroudi: Would speak English.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, one star hotel. He had [01:28:30] to hire like a local person to be his kind of chaperone to help him get get around. Who? Someone who was [01:28:35] bilingual. And he said, the death of me is when they start to open a Marriott hotel in [01:28:40] this country, he says. As long. Once it gets easy to do this, All the stores that he sold [01:28:45] to, they just sent someone out there and do it. But for him, he said, I don’t have a long window in this business. [01:28:50] I’m going to have ten, 15, 20 years. And he was going to. What do they say? Make hay where [01:28:55] the.

Payman Langroudi: When the sun shines.

Grant Goodstein: While the sun shines. That’s what he did.

Payman Langroudi: So what a character. Yeah, what a great story. [01:29:00]

Grant Goodstein: I’d say my next one would be, um, I would say Warren [01:29:05] Buffett. That’s someone who, um, again, are starting to centre around old men here in their 90s. [01:29:10] But, um, Warren Buffett is someone that I think looks at business in like such a, one of the [01:29:15] things I love about reading his shareholder letters is he always describes it that he writes [01:29:20] his letters as if they were to his grandmother or to his aunt. He always says [01:29:25] he wants to be able to. An idea isn’t great unless it can be communicated in a way [01:29:30] that anyone could understand. And I’ve learned so much about communication through him and about [01:29:35] not sounding, not trying to sound like the smartest person in the room, but actually have the most [01:29:40] coherent, easy to understand use simple words instead of big words. I really think that [01:29:45] he’s such an incredible business mind.

Payman Langroudi: Are you not going to give me a third?

Grant Goodstein: The last one’s Leah. [01:29:50] I mean, can I use this opportunity to talk about my wife, who is amazing and [01:29:55] something that’s really special about us, and I feel like the luckiest guy is that. Um, not everyone [01:30:00] gets to be married to their best friend. And for me, it is like, that’s why I say, why would you not want to have your favourite [01:30:05] person at the special fantasy dinner party? So we one thing that we love is a little bit corny, [01:30:10] but literally we walk to and from work every morning. It’s a 15 minute walk from our flat to where we work, and we hold hands every [01:30:15] morning on the way to work. So she’s the most special person and I want to recognise, especially because I [01:30:20] think if you look at a lot of the Dental industry, there’s not a lot [01:30:25] of prominent women in dentistry in the UK or worldwide. I mean, we went to Invisalign live [01:30:30] last week, last year, which was a great event. I think they had 1 or 2 women [01:30:35] speaking, one of which I know, Claire, who’s been on your podcast, is very, very involved in women in dentistry [01:30:40] and I have so much respect for her because all that I do, and I think I do a good job as [01:30:45] the MD of the practice and running the operations. But I always need to remind myself [01:30:50] that none of this would be possible without her. She is exceptional at what she does. She has patients [01:30:55] that swear by her and would never even consider going to a different dentist, [01:31:00] and she delivers amazing care again, both to the to the to the mouth and to the human. She’s [01:31:05] just a spectacular person. I’m very, very, very lucky to have her as my wife and my business [01:31:10] partner.

Payman Langroudi: And the thing you said about the treatment of nervous patients. Yeah, it’s [01:31:15] those those dentists get the most loyalty from their patients.

Grant Goodstein: If you take [01:31:20] someone and this is actually another story that I think is interesting to tell on this podcast is my wife Leah. [01:31:25] Funny is for someone who is dating long distance, 5500 miles apart, has quite a fear [01:31:30] of flying. That’s not something that she feels very comfortable with. And she decided she was going to [01:31:35] do something about it. And she booked onto the fearless flyer course with Easyjet, which culminated [01:31:40] in a flight that takes off and lands at Gatwick Airport. Okay, you have this [01:31:45] online learning pilots. Come on, talk about the science, how planes fly, answer common questions [01:31:50] and then kind of the graduation day of the course is you go on this flight that takes off and lands at Gatwick. [01:31:55] You make a circle in the air for 45 minutes and you land. And it was so inspiring. I went on the I didn’t do the [01:32:00] course with her. But you were able to purchase an extra ticket for that kind of graduation flight. And [01:32:05] she learned so many amazing things about how to soothe herself [01:32:10] during this process that she actually realised, oh my God, everything I learned here [01:32:15] can be applied to my patients who are scared of the dentist.

Grant Goodstein: She doesn’t [01:32:20] like when you’re on the plane and there’s that ding for her. She says, oh [01:32:25] my God. That must mean the pilots are communicating to the flight attendants that the plane’s about to go down. This is the end. Like [01:32:30] that’s where her mind goes. And she learned, I bet a patient when they hear the sound of my fast, [01:32:35] fast speed handpiece, They probably think, oh my God, the whole tooth is coming out. It’s [01:32:40] going to start bleeding blood. It’s going to be flying everywhere. So she can explain to the patient before [01:32:45] she ever does any treatment. Here’s the tools that I’m going to use for your appointment today. Here’s this look. We can touch [01:32:50] this one while it’s working. Not dangerous at all. It only works against a tooth. So you’re not going to again, [01:32:55] just the ability to really relate, empathise and understand has been again, as you [01:33:00] said, if a nervous patient finds a dentist that they can trust, it’s massive. They would never, ever, ever think [01:33:05] about.

Payman Langroudi: My wife works down the road from you guys in the Bupa in really?

Grant Goodstein: I didn’t know that. I didn’t [01:33:10] know your wife is a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, opposite Chelsea and Westminster.

Grant Goodstein: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And she’s had patients [01:33:15] follow her from practice to practice because of this nervous patient thing. Um, because, [01:33:20] and what you described there and they, they teach it in dental school when you’re treating [01:33:25] kids, but it’s actually kids are very much like nervous patients. And [01:33:30] the whole, the whole thing about kids is don’t get them to become a nervous patient eventually. You [01:33:35] know, that’s a tell show do approach.

Grant Goodstein: We actually something in that spirit again. Yeah. In [01:33:40] the way we want to be a bit different is we got a little. One of these stuffed animals that you could buy online. It’s [01:33:45] a giraffe. We named her Daisy. My grandma is obsessed with giraffes. And her. She calls every giraffe [01:33:50] Daisy. So she was the inspiration for Daisy. The giraffe. And Daisy has this giant [01:33:55] set of gnashers, like, 30 teeth on there. And Leia brings out to every child [01:34:00] as she loves treating children. She brings out the giraffe and she goes to reception and says, this [01:34:05] is Daisy. Daisy and I are going to be looking at your teeth today. And before she starts [01:34:10] with the child, she said, let’s take a look at Daisy’s teeth. Let’s do a check-up for Daisy. [01:34:15] Let’s count her teeth. One, two, three. Then she goes to the child. Okay, now Daisy wants [01:34:20] to count your teeth again. That’s. Obviously you wouldn’t do that to an adult, but [01:34:25] the principle is still the same. The principle is the exact same. You help people understand what’s going on. You introduce [01:34:30] them to the concept. You help them understand not only what we’re doing, but how we’re doing [01:34:35] it and why we’re doing it. And people are going to.

Payman Langroudi: The practice of a scanner before you bought it.

Grant Goodstein: Yeah, it [01:34:40] had a itero scanner, and that’s a big part of that’s actually another thing that’s worth mentioning as [01:34:45] well is the, um, we are very much and I think this is somewhere where I can add a little bit of [01:34:50] value as an outsider of the industry, if a dentist shows me an X-ray, the team always laughs at me. As again, [01:34:55] Leah says, I’m in year two. I was looking, went into the clinician, saw a dentist, had an X-ray. I was like, oh, [01:35:00] that’s great. Implant. And Doctor Rowan, who does our our. She’s like, you got to go back [01:35:05] to your one that’s a root treated tooth. That is not an implant. I just saw a big white line going up the tooth. [01:35:10] I assume that’s an implant. Yeah. Turns out it’s a root canal, but that just shows that the average person has absolutely [01:35:15] no clue what they’re looking at when they look at an X-ray. And I think there are some tools, Pearl Overjet [01:35:20] that are helping. They can do some AI overlay and help educate a patient. But the truth [01:35:25] is, an actual picture of your tooth speaks far more to a patient. [01:35:30] So whether that’s an Itero scan or that we use intra oral. We have an intra oral camera in [01:35:35] every surgery. So instead of telling the patient, showing them the X-ray or just a lot of dentists, I might imagine just [01:35:40] say you need. There’s decay. We need to do a filling. We actually take an intra oral picture. Say, [01:35:45] see this hole in your tooth? You actually need a filling here. Let’s get it built back [01:35:50] up strong. And here are your options for how we can.

Payman Langroudi: When I was a dentist, I was so reliant on the Intraoral [01:35:55] camera. Scanners didn’t used to exist back then, but I was so reliant on the Intraoral camera that when the little light used [01:36:00] to go on it, I would honestly disable disabled for that day. You know, like we’d have [01:36:05] to order it and I’d have to come or whatever it was. Um, I used to use it for every single filling, every [01:36:10] single exam, every single everything.

Grant Goodstein: We had a software issue one day where the Intraoral camera wasn’t [01:36:15] working for one day. We had to as an emergency that we had to fix it. But Leah said she came to me, this one patient, [01:36:20] she said, this patient really needs a filling. But she didn’t believe me because I didn’t have the picture to show her.

Payman Langroudi: Because you get so [01:36:25] used to presenting it that way.

Grant Goodstein: I 100% know if this patient had seen a picture, [01:36:30] they would have said, yeah, oh yeah yeah yeah, let’s let’s do the filling. But the patient’s like. Mhm. It’s not painful. I’m [01:36:35] not sure I need it. When you show the X-ray, they have no clue what we’re looking at. So we’re we’re believers in showing [01:36:40] not telling.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely. Yeah. It’s b a massive pleasure man. Thank you.

Grant Goodstein: Thank you so much for.

Payman Langroudi: Having me so much. Not [01:36:45] least your enthusiasm.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:36:50] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:36:55] in dentistry. Your hosts [01:37:00] Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening [01:37:05] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you [01:37:10] both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our [01:37:15] guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of [01:37:20] it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who [01:37:25] you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget [01:37:30] our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from Enlighten Enlightens, an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. It only takes an hour completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening. How to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training. Com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Mary Lopresti onto the podcast, finally. [00:01:00] It’s been a long time coming. Thanks a lot for coming in the first place. Mahi [00:01:05] is an associate dentist interest in restorative dentistry, but probably [00:01:10] best known for his alternative approach to dental education with [00:01:15] originally global Dental Collective. Still is right the Dental Rama brands [00:01:20] now dent Town coming in September.

Mehy Lo Presti: September 18th 19th September. [00:01:25] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. So lovely to have you, my buddy.

Mehy Lo Presti: Thanks.

Payman Langroudi: Well done for coming in. [00:01:30]

Mehy Lo Presti: Thank you for.

Payman Langroudi: Having to me. When I look at you, I really like you. We have a good time together. Whatever. Yeah, [00:01:35] but it seems to me like you’ve got this sort of, I call it outsider mentality [00:01:40] kind of thing going on. Is that right? [00:01:45] Is that wrong? Is it something that happened by mistake on purpose? Or have you [00:01:50] always been that guy who’s always thinking a bit differently?

Mehy Lo Presti: Uh, I think so, [00:01:55] yeah. Now that you say it, probably I always had in mind something else that what [00:02:00] I never knew what it meant to be or to do in my life. And that was the issue. And that’s [00:02:05] probably why I’m a dentist. To be fair, when I had to decide what to do, I [00:02:10] wasn’t exposed to all the possibilities that life could give you all the [00:02:15] jobs and professions. And when I had to decide, uh, my [00:02:20] dad, who’s a doctor, a Middle Eastern.

Payman Langroudi: Gynaecologist.

Mehy Lo Presti: Gynaecologist, of course, uh, [00:02:25] he gave me the best advice he knew about, which is, why don’t [00:02:30] you become a dentist if you don’t know what to do? Because the alternative was being a fashion [00:02:35] illustrator.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: And that didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Were [00:02:40] you autistic?

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, yeah, I always had this artistic view, but I was never exposed [00:02:45] that that art could be a profession. And [00:02:50] I didn’t know that you could actually, through your creativity, you could actually create [00:02:55] and do different things then with the time and learn how to use that in the industry, not [00:03:00] just non-clinical, but also clinical and, uh, but.

Payman Langroudi: But, but [00:03:05] going back to you were growing up in Madrid. Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: South Madrid, two hours south La [00:03:10] Mancha.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, two hours south of Madrid, two.

Mehy Lo Presti: Hours in the middle of nowhere.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:03:15] Past Toledo.

Mehy Lo Presti: Past Toledo. Uh, it’s right in between Madrid [00:03:20] and Granada.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, it’s a.

Mehy Lo Presti: Long way down. I was born in Granada, and then [00:03:25] I grew up in Pinas, which is a town famous for the wine. It’s the biggest producer of wine [00:03:30] in the world. And, uh, yeah, this is where I grew up. A son [00:03:35] of a Palestinian and an Italian.

Payman Langroudi: How did they meet my parents? [00:03:40] Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Egypt. Oh, my dad was a refugee. He left in the 67. [00:03:45] My mom. Uh, her dad, uh, was [00:03:50] Italian. And, uh, there was a big community of Italians in Alexandria.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:03:55]

Mehy Lo Presti: The accelerated from from from Italy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: And my dad was doing medical [00:04:00] school in Alexandria.

Payman Langroudi: And she was living there.

Mehy Lo Presti: She was living there. And they had this kind of, I [00:04:05] always say Romeo and Juliet story with two families, completely different.

Payman Langroudi: Opposed. [00:04:10]

Mehy Lo Presti: Opposed completely, where they were not understanding each other. And they kind of [00:04:15] like made their way through it. And, you know, they [00:04:20] end up getting married, moved to Spain to start a new life. And this is.

Payman Langroudi: What did your mom [00:04:25] do? Did she work?

Mehy Lo Presti: She used to work at the WTO. She [00:04:30] was a secretary. She. She was speaking five languages at the age of 20. Oh, wow. She [00:04:35] was working for an Italian consulate. Super talented. And then [00:04:40] moved to Spain and started teaching, uh, doing translations. Now she still [00:04:45] does translations for for the police, for, uh, courts [00:04:50] and, uh, and she’s an amazing guitarist. She. She does her passion guitar, [00:04:55] her kids and dogs.

Payman Langroudi: She has. In a way. Would [00:05:00] you say you were more. You were more influenced by your mother than your father?

Mehy Lo Presti: In a way. I [00:05:05] think so. I think in the way that I, I analyse, I act, [00:05:10] I do things, I’m very similar to my mom and I [00:05:15] think in other ways, in the ways of how I approach or how [00:05:20] I’m probably more risk apprehensive. Maybe I’m more like my dad [00:05:25] in that sense. So but yeah, I think we have all a mix of both.

Payman Langroudi: But when [00:05:30] it came to choosing dentistry, was there struggle there? Like, did you want to do something else? And they were saying, [00:05:35] just be a dentist.

Mehy Lo Presti: No, no, they didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: They didn’t really know what you wanted.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. They never said no, don’t do [00:05:40] that. It’s just so like, look, dentistry is a great profession. It’s very generous. It’s going to be very generous with your time. [00:05:45] And then you can do in your free time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, whatever.

Mehy Lo Presti: Whatever [00:05:50] you want. And, uh. And, well, this. To be honest, it was a great [00:05:55] advice. Advice in that day, especially when I didn’t [00:06:00] know what to do. So, uh. I think my parents, once I finish dentistry, [00:06:05] my mom confessed to me that she. Thought I would not finish even the first year. Oh, [00:06:10] you told me that now. But, you know, it’s, uh. [00:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: I have a similar story. I think my mom struggled to get me into dentistry and to get me [00:06:20] out of dentistry and all of that.

Mehy Lo Presti: She wanted you to be out of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: She struggled. She struggled [00:06:25] with me. You know, my brother was never a struggle. He was always top of his class. But I was always scraping [00:06:30] through. If I was getting into things and passing things, I was only just getting through. [00:06:35] And I remember my mum, when I decided to stop practising, [00:06:40] the look on her face was just so crazy because it felt like I managed to [00:06:45] make him into a doctor and now he’s giving up. And then.

Mehy Lo Presti: What is it doing. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Now? And then I had to explain to my dad, who’s an accountant, totally risk averse, that I’m [00:06:55] giving up dentistry to start this teeth whitening business. And at the time, [00:07:00] teeth whitening was illegal. So you said you’re going to do something illegal. Yeah. [00:07:05] So he immediately he put down.

Mehy Lo Presti: A drug dealer.

Payman Langroudi: He put down that I’m against this. [00:07:10] Yeah. And my mum, just by looking at her face, you could tell she was against it. Yeah, yeah. So it’s [00:07:15] tough, though. Now, you’re a parent, though.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You do sort of understand. I know your [00:07:20] daughter’s, what, three.

Mehy Lo Presti: Almost two and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Two and a half.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you’re not [00:07:25] there yet. But now I’m at that stage where my kids are saying, what should we do for A-levels? And one of my my [00:07:30] boys now in university, and suddenly you turn into your parents here, you start talking [00:07:35] about all sorts of worst case scenarios. You know, I’m telling my daughter now become [00:07:40] a dentist, you know, because worst case scenario, let’s say you’re on your own or whatever you can feed your children [00:07:45] and, and this sort of thing. It’s strange. As a kid, you have all hopes and dreams, and [00:07:50] as a parent, you’re looking at only those worst cases completely.

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean, [00:07:55] we’re not there yet. We’re actually, like, like, very obsessed on her doing whatever [00:08:00] she wants. Yeah. And I’m not sure if this is good either. We’re kind of probably escaping from from our [00:08:05] families. Overcompensating kind of. So also we were thinking about it. Maybe we’re too, you [00:08:10] know, we’re giving too much freedom and maybe we should guide a bit more. But because my [00:08:15] wife happened the same to her, like she wanted to be a doctor, it’s the opposite. Oh, she wanted [00:08:20] to be a doctor. And her mom said, no, you shouldn’t be. She wasn’t doing something [00:08:25] way easier. And, you know, and, uh, not complicate your life. And she did, um, [00:08:30] history of art. Oh, and now she runs a fertility company, [00:08:35] right? Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, we’ve had her on our podcast, haven’t we?

Mehy Lo Presti: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. That’s true, that’s true. [00:08:40] So and now we’re just like trying to give her as much freedom [00:08:45] as possible. I don’t know when the time arrives of taking decisions we might be actually, like, [00:08:50] scared off.

Payman Langroudi: I think, though, is if your kid happens to have passion for something, [00:08:55] that itself is a massive lucky thing. 100%, because it’s not often I [00:09:00] talk to my kids and their friends. Few of them have a passion for something at that age, [00:09:05] especially in the UK system, right? You have to decide at 15.

Mehy Lo Presti: That was my problem. I didn’t have a passion. Yeah, [00:09:10] I was, you know, I was talented, but I was not putting in the work. [00:09:15] Right. So I didn’t have really something that I was obsessed with. Yeah. And sometimes I was, you’re [00:09:20] right. I wish I was obsessed with something. And then I was just, I knew what I [00:09:25] wanted to do and that’s luck. And that’s. Yeah, like.

Payman Langroudi: You were obsessed with having a great time, right?

Mehy Lo Presti: I [00:09:30] was obsessed with having a good time.

Payman Langroudi: Which is absolutely right for a young person, you know, like, you know, if it’s [00:09:35] not that when you’re young, what the hell is it? If you can’t have a good time, [00:09:40] then.

Mehy Lo Presti: I had an amazing time. Yeah. You know, like I.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you study? [00:09:45]

Mehy Lo Presti: I studied in Madrid.

Payman Langroudi: Central Madrid. Was it?

Mehy Lo Presti: No. There is a town called Villanueva [00:09:50] de la Canada, which is ten minutes from the centre and is a town only for students. [00:09:55] So there are like 30,000 students. Very spoilt. Yeah. All living [00:10:00] in their own little houses. Yeah. And, you know, it was amazing. [00:10:05] You know, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So when I talk to the friends of my kids and, you know, my kids go to the [00:10:10] lycée, so their, their friends go and study all over the world. Yeah. And, you know, some have [00:10:15] gone to Milan and some have gone to America. And the ones who studied in Madrid, I’ve [00:10:20] noticed a pattern here. The ones who studied in Madrid had the best, best, best time in [00:10:25] Madrid. Did you have an amazing university?

Mehy Lo Presti: I had an amazing time. Also, [00:10:30] I struggled with being in a in a lecture room. I actually didn’t have fun in [00:10:35] all my 20 years being in a classroom. I don’t know what that kid. I’m that kid [00:10:40] that I really even now, going to a conference and sitting more. Maybe that’s why I do what I do. Yeah, [00:10:45] but just sitting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I don’t like to sit either. I like to look around [00:10:50] the back of the.

Mehy Lo Presti: Car like you’re never in sight and a bit like this. So I really struggle [00:10:55] and being in a classroom and that was my issue that was never going to class. So [00:11:00] I had to compensate. And luckily I had good memory so I could, you [00:11:05] know, pass the exams. But when I was in the class, I was doing something [00:11:10] else.

Payman Langroudi: So the dental school, you found it challenging?

Mehy Lo Presti: I found it challenging because I didn’t really [00:11:15] enjoy it. And I think the I mean, in general, I’m not a big fan of conventional [00:11:20] education. I think this authoritarian way of educating where everyone is [00:11:25] sitting in a class, listening to someone standing higher than the rest and saying, this is [00:11:30] how things need to be done. And if you don’t do this, it’s wrong and there is no a two way conversation. [00:11:35] You know, for me, it doesn’t work. So I think it wasn’t [00:11:40] about dentistry. I think anything that I would study, I would I would struggle in the same way because [00:11:45] it’s just the format. And then dentistry in a way, like I liked it in terms [00:11:50] of like, you know, when you get what is about and start making [00:11:55] sense, then you enjoy it. But the first two years, yeah, they were hard, like biology, [00:12:00] chemistry, anatomy, not my thing, not my thing. Yeah. [00:12:05]

Payman Langroudi: And now when you think about it. Yeah. I remember in dental school doing loads of things [00:12:10] that were totally not applicable to the job. And [00:12:15] I remember when I started doing the job, loads of things that [00:12:20] weren’t, weren’t covered in the course.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So if we think about the sort of [00:12:25] the trade off of which bits you take out and what you would [00:12:30] throw in what comes to mind, because I think about school like that. Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, [00:12:35] I think the issue is that, Um, to update the curriculums [00:12:40] in any academic institution. It takes ages.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:12:45]

Mehy Lo Presti: So at the time that you actually want to change and be in line with what is happening in real life, you’re [00:12:50] already ten years behind. Yeah. So just now, maybe very, uh, avant [00:12:55] garde universities, they got this right. I mean, now there are universities in, [00:13:00] I know in Pennsylvania and dental schools, they’re teaching almost through, uh, snapshots [00:13:05] of images, you know, in terms of like, uh, frameworks, boom, boom, boom, boom. This is what [00:13:10] you need to do to do a filling a cavity, like very easy captions [00:13:15] and knowing the basic visuals visually teaching. Exactly. But right now, [00:13:20] you know what you need to what they teach you. Well, the goal in a [00:13:25] university or in the classroom is to have a great memory about what you just learned and [00:13:30] does it make. And then you can apply it, right? Because you just studied memorising.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [00:13:35] a funny thing because knowledge has been commoditized. The more we get into. [00:13:40]

Mehy Lo Presti: This, like it’s very political. Yeah, whatever you learn is super political, especially [00:13:45] in early in the early days.

Payman Langroudi: But but in my dad’s day or in your dad’s day, becoming an [00:13:50] expert in an area was pretty much all you needed to dominate. Yeah. Yeah. It’s [00:13:55] almost like the memory in his head of the the different things. My dad’s an accountant. Your dad’s a doctor. But [00:14:00] almost. That was it. Now all the information’s in everyone’s fingertips. [00:14:05]

Mehy Lo Presti: Exactly. Everyone is an expert.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone’s an expert. I mean.

Mehy Lo Presti: How do you stand out? Of of of that. [00:14:10] What is what makes you different?

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s so interesting, dude, because we’ve got one member of staff here. Yeah. Who [00:14:15] has focussed in on toothpaste. Yeah. And ChatGPT [00:14:20] and we’ve got the, you know, Gemini, you know, the paid ones and [00:14:25] all that. Yeah. And literally in four months she knows more about toothpaste than I do because I [00:14:30] haven’t done that exercise the way she has. Yeah. And you realise that knowledge [00:14:35] isn’t the key. So what is the key? What is the key?

Mehy Lo Presti: I think the key is. The [00:14:40] value that the strength that you might have. You [00:14:45] know, and how to use that knowledge. And this is, uh, what [00:14:50] makes you stand out from the rest? Yeah. And I don’t know if it’s you being a good speaker or [00:14:55] a good clinician or a good, um, educator [00:15:00] or someone that how you transmit that knowledge. I think that’s going to be the, the [00:15:05] key. Um, for the future, because everyone will have the knowledge in [00:15:10] a moment. Yeah. Now how you deliver this knowledge because people will get tired [00:15:15] of going to ChatGPT. People will get tired to read. People will want to be acquire [00:15:20] this knowledge in a different way. Yeah. I want to go and speak, see [00:15:25] and listen to Payman because of the way he transmits this knowledge.

Payman Langroudi: And so we [00:15:30] see it with speakers, don’t we? There are some speakers that engage the room. Electrify [00:15:35] the room? Yeah, actually, let’s get to that part of the pod where I ask you, because you’ve been on so much [00:15:40] education. What comes to mind when I say that? I mean, which speakers, [00:15:45] for instance, you mentioned the. We were having coffee. You mentioned Galip Grill. Yeah. [00:15:50] For me there was a lecture. Galip gave about 20 years ago [00:15:55] that I went to that not only was the subject matter unbelievable [00:16:00] because it was his technique for minimally invasive prepping of the teeth. Not only that. [00:16:05] Yeah. The presentation back then, I mean, now you could probably ChatGPT, but the presentation, you had these dancers [00:16:10] going in the shape of the words beautiful. And then the man himself. [00:16:15] Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Was he a presence.

Payman Langroudi: Olympian or whatever? He was like a water polo.

Mehy Lo Presti: Captain [00:16:20] of Turkey.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, whatever. This guy said the whole room was paying attention. Yeah, [00:16:25] yeah. So he comes to mind for me. But you’ve been exposed to a lot more educators than I have. Who comes [00:16:30] to mind for you?

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean, you know, right now. Actually, the I [00:16:35] would say, well, coachman, of course, he’s a great, uh, you know, one of my favourites, [00:16:40] a mentor to me. Um, the way that he delivers [00:16:45] and, uh, improvises what he says. It’s incredible. You know how [00:16:50] he chooses the right words, the right timing, the right tone of voice? He does it very well. [00:16:55] And also, the content is very relevant because you can have also great speakers. But if the content. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: You need it all, you.

Mehy Lo Presti: Need it all. And that’s the difficulty to.

Payman Langroudi: Balance all [00:17:05] of.

Mehy Lo Presti: That. Yeah. Now, now that we’re trying to find clinical educators is where we struggle to see someone [00:17:10] that can deliver in the way that’s aligned with what we do. But also the content is amazing. [00:17:15] And not only the, the, the quality of the content, but the quality, as you said, of the presentation, [00:17:20] is to be something that you remember because you’re going to only remember how you felt in that [00:17:25] moment and in that moment. If you’re like Amazed that those [00:17:30] words, that technique that they’re showing you is what we will you will retain.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But then [00:17:35] sometimes you’re amazed and that amazement inspires you 100%. [00:17:40] But it’s not practical knowledge because you know, you can’t pull it off. [00:17:45] You’re just amazed that this guy’s pulled that off and you’re sort of in awe. And it’s important. It’s [00:17:50] important, you know, like we went to buy Malaysian, didn’t we. Some of the stuff those guys are doing, no, [00:17:55] no one in the practice is going to do day to day, but someone needs to be at the tip of the spear [00:18:00] to push things up so that everyone else comes up. So I get that.

Mehy Lo Presti: I think that [00:18:05] is, I think. Sorry to interrupt you, but I think there is a mix of that. I think you need a bit of both. Yeah. You need it’s [00:18:10] like when you see athletes, you know, like you see football and [00:18:15] then you might not learn from messy, messy. So but you are inspired [00:18:20] to, to go to go there. Now, if you want to learn football, you have some someone at your [00:18:25] level or a bit higher than your level that you can achieve. And this is a little bit with education. So I think you need [00:18:30] both. For me, one of the best, uh, and actually [00:18:35] Cristian Guzman was there and he said the same, but one of the best lectures [00:18:40] on digital dentistry is, uh, was Marta Revilla. She’s [00:18:45] a Spanish. She’s the head of, uh, research at the centre.

Payman Langroudi: Uh-uh. [00:18:50]

Mehy Lo Presti: Her lecture, dissecting everything [00:18:55] on digital, comparing all the different, uh, tools, uh, all the different [00:19:00] softwares, uh, the all the factors, error, uh, mistakes. [00:19:05] It was amazing. I think that was like a masterpiece. And the way she delivers. [00:19:10]

Payman Langroudi: Say her name again slowly.

Mehy Lo Presti: Marta. Revilla.

Payman Langroudi: Marta. Yeah. Rebellion.

Mehy Lo Presti: And [00:19:15] I think she was amazing. And that really inspired me. And [00:19:20] also seeing the lecture was in English and seeing and, non, [00:19:25] uh, native English speaker delivered in that beautiful way. It was also [00:19:30] inspiring. She’s Spanish.

Payman Langroudi: I got that feeling when I saw Nasri.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:19:35] same feeling. Oh, and I was blown away. I was completely blown away. And then [00:19:40] I got out of the lecture room. I think it was b a c d. Yeah. And I turned around to everyone and said that was [00:19:45] just unbelievable. And people weren’t as impressed as I was, but maybe because I wasn’t, [00:19:50] you know, haven’t seen it before. Yeah, but it blew me away, man.

Mehy Lo Presti: Man is amazing. That’s why we’re bringing him to [00:19:55] the town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, because it’s.

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean, the level for me. I’ve treated some [00:20:00] of his patients that he referred to me like in terms of like, hey, look, I have a problem [00:20:05] with a patient. And I saw in.

Payman Langroudi: You saw the work.

Mehy Lo Presti: I saw the work, the margins [00:20:10] and the precision. And I was like, wow. So again, he’s an expert on microscope. [00:20:15] You might not have a microscope, but you know, what is the [00:20:20] right thing to do? And you know, anything below that. It’s not perfect, so at least you know what is [00:20:25] the. What is the standard?

Payman Langroudi: And then in terms of format. Yeah, I’ve seen you’ve [00:20:30] experimented with so many different formats and we all know the basic format. The basic [00:20:35] format is the hero is standing on the stage. Hopefully there’s some good AV. There isn’t [00:20:40] always. Yeah, yeah, hopefully there’s some good AV. He shows some cases. [00:20:45] He goes through some of his techniques. Okay. That’s number one. We all know about that [00:20:50] one. Yeah. Number two I’d say one level above that is he also discusses [00:20:55] failures. Yeah. Which many don’t. Yeah. And I even thought about a whole event called [00:21:00] failures where every every case has to be a failure. Yeah. You know, because we’re going to talk about clinical [00:21:05] mistakes now, but we tend to learn from our mistakes. Yeah, yeah. Okay. That’s the next level. But it’s still [00:21:10] one guy talking. Then we get on to all the different things you’ve tried. [00:21:15] Yeah. You’ve you’ve had in the round stage productions [00:21:20] with with actors. And by the way, well done. Yeah. Someone someone [00:21:25] needs to. Someone needs to try things. Yeah. And all of that. But okay, I’ve been to those. [00:21:30] And again, I don’t know, I learned that much from I enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I enjoyed it. Yeah. Panels [00:21:35] you’ve had and I’ve done panels before as well, which [00:21:40] I find them better. I find them better. But even a panel, if it’s going to go on for half an hour, 40 [00:21:45] minutes. How many people are you going to have in the panel? Say you have five people. They can only talk for like [00:21:50] five minutes each or something. And it becomes a bit sort of sound bitey. Yeah. And I’ve [00:21:55] been thinking about an idea of let’s say you can talk, you can, we can have a panel [00:22:00] on something that isn’t clinical. That’s fine. But how the hell do you have a [00:22:05] panel on a subject that is clinical? Let’s say if I want to have a panel on composite, you can’t have five composite [00:22:10] guys talking about composite. So what’s the solution? So the only thing I can [00:22:15] come up with is you get one of them to present an amazingly complicated [00:22:20] case. And the other four to discuss what they would have done. [00:22:25] Have you seen something like that?

Mehy Lo Presti: No.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve thought about it.

Mehy Lo Presti: It’s. It’s fun. Funny that you’re saying [00:22:30] that because this is something that we were we are bringing to the town. So our [00:22:35] speaker will will bring their lecture. We’re putting some priorities on the lecture. [00:22:40] What they need to have us.

Payman Langroudi: Including failure.

Mehy Lo Presti: As well. So [00:22:45] ideally.

Payman Langroudi: You know, they do that. They say that there needs to be one one failure.

Mehy Lo Presti: So [00:22:50] which is which is I think is great. And then we dissect, we build a waiting. [00:22:55] Um, it’s like a waiting room in the stage in the middle of the stage. Yeah. And there [00:23:00] is going to be like two, three interviewers and they’re going to dissect where the speaker [00:23:05] the, the conversation. And that’s why a way of thinking, [00:23:10] how can a lecturer be more relevant to what people do? [00:23:15] And also, this is very we are very good at this, right? Having the.

Payman Langroudi: Audience.

Mehy Lo Presti: Participation [00:23:20] and engaging. Yeah. And this is only you can only do it for my experience. [00:23:25] Having that circular stage or the people around some stage. [00:23:30] Yeah. Because we tried we’ve done events with other companies or in [00:23:35] other conferences where you have the classic, uh, layouts.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: It [00:23:40] was very difficult to make people be engaged and participate. So you kind of [00:23:45] need to have the people a little bit above.

Payman Langroudi: Seeing each other.

Mehy Lo Presti: Seeing each other [00:23:50] and higher than the speakers. Oh, so they don’t feel intimidated. You don’t feel like [00:23:55] they don’t see like people like, oh, there are gods and I’m not allowed to be in that conversation. [00:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Mehy Lo Presti: That’s what.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting.

Mehy Lo Presti: That’s when one of our [00:24:05] learnings from all these years of doing this thing and, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then you’ve done even other formats, [00:24:10] you did a dinner format. Yeah. And that wasn’t education or was it entertainment? [00:24:15]

Mehy Lo Presti: It was. I mean, look, I don’t think we ever.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mix the two entertainment. Entertainment. [00:24:20]

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, you know, we again, this is something that I, I think [00:24:25] is wrong on. Well, not wrong, but it didn’t work with me. And I think with a lot of people. And it’s the conventional [00:24:30] education, which is just one way of, uh, the conversation goes in one [00:24:35] direction. And what we want to do is we create conversation. So you see something, [00:24:40] something is wrong, and then we facilitate the conversation. So the idea of the [00:24:45] of modern noir was to experiment what people would like, what people wouldn’t like. [00:24:50] We really took everything to the maximum level of creativity. We, you know, people [00:24:55] were arriving to this old church that we converted in a fancy [00:25:00] dinner for 150 people. But when you were arriving, you arrived to a trade [00:25:05] show from the 80s, and then the actors would perform how the industry [00:25:10] were in the 80s, how then after how the industry was in in [00:25:15] 2025, how dentistry will be in 2045. So [00:25:20] there is true that the last there there was no conversation or [00:25:25] the people didn’t have the chance to speak, but we wanted to see what was that creating [00:25:30] in between the people. And if people were having their own conversations in their own [00:25:35] tables.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I think, look, the one sort of takeaway from all of this, yeah, is, [00:25:40] okay, me and you might be a little bit like unconventional learners, right? [00:25:45] Adhd types, whatever. They couldn’t sit down in the classroom or whatever. Maybe that’s why me and you [00:25:50] are so interested in this subject, like you said. But Dental education needs a shake up. [00:25:55] And the reason it needs a shake up is that if I want to just learn, I can order [00:26:00] a bunch of courses that I can sit in front of my computer and learn. Yeah. Then you’ve got the kind [00:26:05] of the, the networking part of going to a course. You know, you meet some people [00:26:10] like you maybe managed to talk to the teacher at the bar in that course. [00:26:15] And then really, the point is the sort of experiential side [00:26:20] of you’re taking a day out of your life to go to a Dental thing. That [00:26:25] day needs to be super fun. And I think you’ve really nailed that with with global Dental collective [00:26:30] in a nice way. But really, every time I do an event now that’s always like become [00:26:35] my focus here that the guy needs to have felt like it was worth leaving his House.

Mehy Lo Presti: And [00:26:40] the Senate, and the bar is getting higher and higher and higher. Yeah. Uh, I mean, [00:26:45] I think the industry is a few steps behind other industries. Yeah. [00:26:50] Like fashion, uh, like tech, uh, although.

Payman Langroudi: Many steps [00:26:55] ahead. Um, medicine, for instance, you know, I, I’ve been to some of my brother’s [00:27:00] things and it’s just like, you know, the classic old shape lecture with heading bullet. Bullet. [00:27:05] Bullet. Bullet. Just words. The lecturer saying the words that are on the screen.

Mehy Lo Presti: And [00:27:10] it used to be amazing, you know? Have you seen those, like, surgical rooms where they’re doing the surgery [00:27:15] and they’re like surgical theatres, which inspired.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Mehy Lo Presti: Operation? This is inspired [00:27:20] us a lot to our formats. That was amazing. Right? And those classrooms, [00:27:25] old style where people can debate comment that doesn’t exist anymore. You know, like people [00:27:30] are just like throwing ideas, the teachers and they get banned for the crazy ideas. [00:27:35] No. Now everything is so political, you know? So controlled. And this is what it means. And this is what we want [00:27:40] to we wanted to bring back this, uh, you know, when you see in the movies, you know, the scientists talking [00:27:45] about these new laws of maths and new physics and people are [00:27:50] getting crazy and this is bullshit, and this is great. This is what I think we’re missing [00:27:55] that conversation and the formats, unfortunately, you know, they sit and [00:28:00] listen format is dying.

Payman Langroudi: I think another important thing to point out though, [00:28:05] and to remember as someone like you. Yeah. Is, let’s say you do this Dental. [00:28:10] Let’s say it goes amazingly well. And I don’t know what your numbers are, but let’s imagine 750 people [00:28:15] turn up. 75,000 people will see the content.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. [00:28:20]

Payman Langroudi: And where you’ve you’ve done quite well there is that, you know, and it’s important to remember as, as [00:28:25] someone who’s organising an event, it’s as important or could be ten times [00:28:30] as important for the social views and [00:28:35] the content that comes from the event. Yeah. As it is to be at the event.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, [00:28:40] yeah, yeah, yeah. We put a lot of effort on being able to show [00:28:45] as much as possible or make people feel what actually happens in the room. [00:28:50] It’s, it will never be fair and never comparable to what you [00:28:55] can experience being there, but at least you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, if I’m scrolling my phone, yeah. [00:29:00] And anything by you comes up. Yeah, I’m going to stop and watch. Yeah. [00:29:05] That is a product. That attention is the product itself. [00:29:10] Yeah. Because I could I could scroll and watch whatever the hell I want. Yeah. Why should I watch global Dental? [00:29:15]

Mehy Lo Presti: I agree, and I.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Mehy Lo Presti: Appreciate you liking it. And a lot of people pass and don’t [00:29:20] for sure, but but uh, same.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, same thing, same thing here in this room. Yeah. We can [00:29:25] sit and be politically correct. Yeah. But then why should the guy anyone? Why should the listener [00:29:30] listen to this? Why not go watch succession or something?

Mehy Lo Presti: You know? I [00:29:35] agree people. I mean, you probably would have stopped time ago and probably [00:29:40] that’s the nature. But what this.

Payman Langroudi: What does the listener want here? Yeah. Listener wants here a little [00:29:45] look behind the curtain. Right. So let’s do that. Let’s let’s let’s uh.

Mehy Lo Presti: You’re [00:29:50] taking me. Okay. Let’s go.

Payman Langroudi: That takes me comfortably onto let’s go the little [00:29:55] look behind the curtain. Let’s just go straight into the darker part of [00:30:00] this pod. Let’s let’s start with the very general question [00:30:05] in the last 20 years that you’ve been involved in education, [00:30:10] dentistry, all of that, what to you, which day sort [00:30:15] of stands out as the darkest day? What, what what comes to mind when I [00:30:20] say that? Or which days?

Mehy Lo Presti: In education or in clinical either. [00:30:25] Well, clinical for sure. Like [00:30:30] the, the, you know, the stress of knowing that, you know, we [00:30:35] all had these issues with patients, know that you’re doing the best that you think you’re doing for someone. [00:30:40] And you know, things cannot always go as you expect.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:30:45] I want to go into it.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. And then, and then, you know, feeling [00:30:50] like you are a criminal, you know, like actually like.

Payman Langroudi: When you get a letter or [00:30:55] something.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. I mean, touch wood. I never got any letter or any formal complaint. Well. [00:31:00]

Payman Langroudi: I never got we’ve all had complaints. Right?

Mehy Lo Presti: Complaint? Yes, but nothing [00:31:05] like GDC. So but and you [00:31:10] know what? This is a feeling that you don’t have in Spain. Yeah, yeah. [00:31:15] That fear of practising dentistry, that fear of doing the right thing is so crazy. [00:31:20] And this is one of the reasons that we started doing all this. You know, our first event was about mental health and social [00:31:25] media.

Payman Langroudi: I was there.

Mehy Lo Presti: They were there. And it really shocked [00:31:30] me. Coming from Spain, where you have the freedom of doing [00:31:35] the best that you think and and if things don’t go well.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone [00:31:40] understands.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, at least there is no any automatic process of [00:31:45] making your criminal. Yeah. Right. And make you making you feel like, oh, wow, [00:31:50] you’re not good enough or, or being still being confident about what you do and [00:31:55] being in a process that I’ve never been through. But I’ve seen a lot of incredible [00:32:00] clinicians that I went through this. I was like, why? What’s the reason? I mean, [00:32:05] with the time we understood.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, have you got a feeling of what, for instance, in Spain, what is [00:32:10] the process for someone who really does need to be stopped?

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, I don’t think so. The GDP [00:32:15] in Spain doesn’t doesn’t go automatically to try [00:32:20] and and get you or or you know.

Payman Langroudi: But let’s start [00:32:25] with that. Let’s, let’s imagine there’s someone who’s a proper criminal. Yeah, he’s he’s.

Mehy Lo Presti: Taking [00:32:30] you’re going to get sued. You know, you’re going to be like.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but he’s taking teeth out that don’t need to be taken out or whatever it is. He’s doing [00:32:35] terrible. And if if the patient doesn’t have the same recourse as they have [00:32:40] here. Yeah. I guess that guy can get away with more than here, because over here [00:32:45] people are getting done for almost nothing, for having the right, the wrong thing written in the notes.

Mehy Lo Presti: So I think there is I [00:32:50] don’t think the problem is on us trying to stop things. Of, [00:32:55] of, of going wrong. Right. The problem is the process itself where [00:33:00] you really feel like you’re a criminal. This is a problem. The problem is that not that they investigate the [00:33:05] issue or see what’s wrong. No, the problem is what blame. They blame the [00:33:10] the the whole thing about waiting for for for months. Yeah. If something [00:33:15] gets resolved, the investigation, the I mean, I, I have friends [00:33:20] that, you know, they call everyone that they work with to understand if he’s actually a good dentist, [00:33:25] a bad dentist. I mean, I think it’s a bit crazy. And for also, [00:33:30] we did a bit of research understanding if this is true or not. There is no such a big risk as the reality. [00:33:35] I think also.

Payman Langroudi: The fear is more.

Mehy Lo Presti: The fear, those numbers that are brought by [00:33:40] indemnity insurances, right? Like they are the ones saying like you’re going to get. They’re [00:33:45] saying that to students. You’re going to get an average of five complaints during your career.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:33:50] yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Imagine you’re getting your license, your driving license. And the guy from from the insurance comes, knocks at the door. He’s like, [00:33:55] hey, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: When you go to.

Mehy Lo Presti: Court, when you go to, to, when you start driving, you’re going to have at least five accidents. [00:34:00] How are you going to drive the rest of your life?

Payman Langroudi: I think I had I had Linda Cruz on the pod. [00:34:05] Yeah. And he said they used to actively start every lecture with that. And they actually [00:34:10] realised, I think he was working for Dental defence or something. They actually realised [00:34:15] they’re putting anxiety into the whole workforce and then stopped doing it. Yeah. [00:34:20]

Mehy Lo Presti: Because those numbers, I don’t know where they’re coming from.

Payman Langroudi: But there was there was there was a peak GTC [00:34:25] around 20 1415. Yeah. Peak. Well, yeah, they were calling, they were [00:34:30] taking in anyone they could.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I went, I mean, I got also behind those [00:34:35] years and understanding the numbers and who was taking the decisions. And [00:34:40] yeah, they didn’t look very good. I think things were they’re trying to change.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to [00:34:45] make them.

Mehy Lo Presti: Better. Yeah. But yeah, there was a, you know, I don’t know if you’re talking about 2010 or something [00:34:50] like that.

Payman Langroudi: Ten, 10 to 15 was really tough.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I saw.

Payman Langroudi: Those when you arrived. [00:34:55] Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Just before And I saw some numbers and they were like, the graph is like up [00:35:00] and down, like drastically.

Payman Langroudi: So I want to get to your biggest mistake, but let’s start with [00:35:05] you came from Spain. Have you practised in Spain?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. Practised for two years.

Payman Langroudi: So the biggest [00:35:10] difference between here and there was this fear question. Anything else? [00:35:15] What, like practising in Spain and practising here. What’s what are the patients different there to [00:35:20] hear that.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. I mean it would be difficult to compare because I was in a rural [00:35:25] area.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Compared to central London.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. Compared to central London, compared to Kensington [00:35:30] or to Highgate. You know, it’s, it’s it’s hard also it’s a different mentality. And [00:35:35] you don’t have NHS there. Yeah. Uh so you know, it’s a [00:35:40] different system. There is all private 95%. [00:35:45] Uh, so I think the main thing also the financial, uh, [00:35:50] background and where you work in the context, right? Um, their [00:35:55] insurances kind of stipulated the price of the [00:36:00] treatments in exchange of sending you patients. Yeah. There is no regulation [00:36:05] on the amount of dentists that can get graduated every year. So there is an [00:36:10] overflow of dentists. So at the end it’s very hard to do good dentistry. Yeah. [00:36:15] Because a people don’t don’t they’re not [00:36:20] used to pay a lot for good dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s loads of dentists.

Mehy Lo Presti: And there’s lots of dentists. So [00:36:25] that was one of the reasons, you know, like of, of leaving.

Payman Langroudi: But was there like a two tier [00:36:30] thing? I mean, I’m sure there’s some of the top dentists in the world work in Spain.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah, yeah there is. But those [00:36:35] seats.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very.

Mehy Lo Presti: Very, very limited. And that’s the problem that you need to have access to [00:36:40] that upper class and you need to have a name for years. And normally [00:36:45] it’s people that they had clinic for generations start over. And I know some [00:36:50] of the best dentists in the world that they are like, wow. And they tell me what they can charge. And [00:36:55] they almost lose money. And it’s not about being rich, but software, technology, everything. [00:37:00] If you want to apply what is coming on board, you know, it’s the [00:37:05] numbers are not right.

Payman Langroudi: So what made you move to London? I know, I know, you wanted [00:37:10] to move out of Spain, but why London?

Mehy Lo Presti: I think, uh, this is 2015. You [00:37:15] know, London was probably the capital of the world, uh, before Brexit and [00:37:20] before, uh, all this Covid and crisis. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: So kind of bright lights, big city, kind.

Mehy Lo Presti: Of it was like, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, did you know London already?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I knew London. [00:37:30]

Payman Langroudi: A few.

Mehy Lo Presti: Times. I had family here. Um, but not in the way that I actually discovered, [00:37:35] you know, from the creativity.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you move to? Where was the first part of London you. [00:37:40]

Mehy Lo Presti: Moved to start my land.

Payman Langroudi: My land?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My land.

Mehy Lo Presti: It was like.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:37:45] a shocker.

Mehy Lo Presti: My. First time my mom came to visit me. [00:37:50] She left crying.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I bet she did.

Mehy Lo Presti: She left like I think. [00:37:55] I was sharing a house with six girls.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well done. I mean, I was like, you know, I [00:38:00] came with with nothing. So I had a job and performing nothing. [00:38:05] And I could barely speak English also.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was [00:38:10] from zero. From scratch.

Payman Langroudi: But you spoke Spanish. Italian, Arabic? Yeah. Do you speak Arabic? [00:38:15]

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And Italian as well.

Mehy Lo Presti: Italian, 70%. Oh, but I understand 100%, [00:38:20] but yeah, now I have to get. I have an Italian wife and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.

Mehy Lo Presti: So it’s [00:38:25] getting it’s getting better.

Payman Langroudi: So then how did you find the job? What did you do?

Mehy Lo Presti: That’s [00:38:30] a crazy story. Uh, I basically I [00:38:35] came, I didn’t understand the system and then I, I, I, I discovered [00:38:40] the NHS and how you need to start working in NHS and then go to private and this and that. [00:38:45] I was like, gosh, this is going to be impossible. So I went to see a Spanish [00:38:50] dentist that worked in Nottingham, and I asked him for advice and he had like, you know, [00:38:55] the dream life. You know, he was like, it’s a super cool dude. And he’s I mean, I’d [00:39:00] be forever grateful for for him always. And I was like, okay, how can I do [00:39:05] this? I was like, man, you’re going to have to work in the NHS and then this and then there’s like a long journey. [00:39:10] I felt like super demotivated. I was like, okay, I went home, back home and [00:39:15] I was like, okay, this is not going to happen. And I don’t know, I need to find a different way. I, [00:39:20] I bumped into, into, in the street into this guy and [00:39:25] dentist in Spain.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mehy Lo Presti: And he’s like, you know, I’m [00:39:30] the person that was running the clinic with me. She left. And, [00:39:35] you know, I was thinking that, you know, I need someone to help me with the management [00:39:40] and everything. You know, she was my right hand. And, you know, I think you need a space [00:39:45] or have you found a place? It’s like, no, it’s like, okay, why don’t start?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mehy Lo Presti: And see, you know, [00:39:50] there was one chair clinic. Only one chair in Westbourne Grove. [00:39:55]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mehy Lo Presti: Super cool. Like very nice clinic, but one chair. So [00:40:00] it was like, okay, when can I work? It’s like, well, whenever it’s free. The chair. So when it’s [00:40:05] free, the chair go and check. So in that way, I started, you [00:40:10] know. You know, I remember that, uh, he was not doing root canal. So I started doing. [00:40:15] His root canal.

Payman Langroudi: Root canal private. Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Or private.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So he never even worked [00:40:20] at the NHS.

Mehy Lo Presti: Never worked NHS never. Never worked in NHS. I don’t know if it’s nice or not, but I never. I mean, [00:40:25] kind of like the insurance system in Spain.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit like that.

Mehy Lo Presti: A bit like that. [00:40:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: A lot of patients.

Payman Langroudi: High volume.

Mehy Lo Presti: Volume.

Payman Langroudi: Low price.

Mehy Lo Presti: So I went through [00:40:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: And I was like, okay, I’m not, I’m not going to do this here again. And then I tested [00:40:40] what is the private in Notting Hill? And I was like, okay, this is nice.

Payman Langroudi: So living [00:40:45] in my land, working in Notting Hill.

Mehy Lo Presti: It was easy access, central line. It was there in like 30 [00:40:50] minutes, so it was actually very nice. I remember working like, I don’t know, very little, like [00:40:55] 2 or 3 hours a day, like 2 or 3 days not working.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:00]

Mehy Lo Presti: I was making enough money to, you know, to pay rent and save some money. [00:41:05] And then it started like, you know, I was understanding and learning how the system works, the patients, [00:41:10] everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: And then at some point, uh, yeah, just got another job and another [00:41:15] job and, you know, everything went organic.

Payman Langroudi: And did you study [00:41:20] any more apart from the, you know, Dental degree?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I went to, I did my master’s in [00:41:25] aesthetic restorative dentistry at King’s.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mehy Lo Presti: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Part time, part [00:41:30] time.

Mehy Lo Presti: Part time. And that was also great. Uh, open [00:41:35] my mind to.

Payman Langroudi: To whole mouth dentistry.

Mehy Lo Presti: Whole mouth. [00:41:40] Uh, you know, a new system, the British educational [00:41:45] system, which was very different to what we do, writing critical appraisals. That [00:41:50] was super hard. There was no ChatGPT or stuff like that. That’s right. I mean, now imagine people [00:41:55] doing that and I don’t even know how. But that was hard. The all the research [00:42:00] that needed to be done behind that was very tough.

Payman Langroudi: I recommend it.

Mehy Lo Presti: I [00:42:05] think. It depends. [00:42:10] It depends if you want to get into research and in the academic circuit works in work in university. [00:42:15] Yes. Right. Because this is where.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Mehy Lo Presti: This is where they’re going to meet you. Yeah. [00:42:20] You know, and this is the way to get in. Yeah. If you don’t. Maybe not. Now there are an incredible, [00:42:25] uh, programs and especially in restorative, right? The one year program, [00:42:30] two year, you know, from I know Monique Vashon or Chris or, or these, you know, these people, [00:42:35] they have the basics and the where you can get incredible notion of [00:42:40] doing things in the right way and you can practice straight or.

Payman Langroudi: Even spear and spear. [00:42:45]

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. And if you are willing to travel, you know, this is, I think one [00:42:50] of my to do or something I would have liked to do is do coys. [00:42:55] That’s probably something that if I had the chance, I [00:43:00] could in dentistry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s probably so is that the answer [00:43:05] to my other question, which is going to be if you have no time or money constraints, which course would [00:43:10] you jump into?

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, in.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical.

Mehy Lo Presti: Courses probably.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:15] What if we’re not talking clinical what would you do?

Mehy Lo Presti: I will tell [00:43:20] you what is my the best educational experience I ever had. And I [00:43:25] would do again and again and again and is going to the College of Extraordinary [00:43:30] Experiences.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so.

Mehy Lo Presti: This was actually what opened my mind to immersive [00:43:35] experience and to do what I do in a different level. Yeah, we were 130 [00:43:40] experienced designers from all around the world in a castle in Poland. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Mehy Lo Presti: For for a week on a Harry Potter Hogwarts [00:43:50] style.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. So you have your house, you have your lectures. [00:43:55] Everything is a bit magic. Uh, you completely forget about the.

Payman Langroudi: Outside. [00:44:00]

Mehy Lo Presti: Outside world. Uh, I remember also, there is no alcohol served [00:44:05] in the whole week, which doesn’t need to mean anything, but, you know, this course is in the night. You [00:44:10] know, normally there’s a bar or something, there is no alcohol. And I found that incredible because. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: Give me some examples of like what stuff went on there.

Mehy Lo Presti: So [00:44:20] for example, uh, there are every day you have [00:44:25] like two different workshops. Um, one of the workshops, for example, [00:44:30] was about, uh, voice. So there was a group of [00:44:35] 15 people in a room And through the buoys you [00:44:40] through the buoys, you can heal and you can, you know, get to a different level, right? [00:44:45] And it was how the, the, the [00:44:50] teacher facilitator make the whole room go to a note in [00:44:55] your voice that you would never imagine that you could go, well, you get to, to places [00:45:00] that you don’t ever think that you can go. Thanks to the collective work and [00:45:05] the experience of, of how, how to create that [00:45:10] classroom and how to learn from, okay, how can I apply what he just did, what I do [00:45:15] in a daily basis and that you can apply it from the whole experience? For me, it was the whole [00:45:20] experience. And from there, you can take things that you can tweak in the patient experience, how you make feel, [00:45:25] people triggering through an emotion, through a sound, through light, through different [00:45:30] components. The event has. So everything was super curated [00:45:35] every single moment.

Payman Langroudi: And who were the other people on that call? Nothing to do with dentistry, obviously. Nothing. [00:45:40] All different sort of event.

Mehy Lo Presti: All different. I mean, some people that they were like the head of events [00:45:45] in Disney and the head of research on Adidas, uh, people that they do immersive experiences [00:45:50] in, in escape rooms in Netherlands that they do.

Payman Langroudi: How did you find this [00:45:55] course?

Mehy Lo Presti: So a good friend of mine told me, I told her like, this is what I’m doing with Dental. I was like, okay, [00:46:00] you need to go here. And it’s almost like almost, almost like invitation only. I mean, if anyone [00:46:05] wants to know more about it, please contact me because I’m super happy to share. [00:46:10] Yeah. If you like events, experience and learn more about it, it’s, it’s [00:46:15] it’s amazing. It’s, uh, I think next one is in October in 2026. [00:46:20] And, uh, she told me you need to go there and, you know, actually I went not knowing what I [00:46:25] was going to do. You see the website and already the name is amazing the College of Extraordinary [00:46:30] Experiences.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: It’s like, I want it to be there.

Payman Langroudi: I think I’m going to go.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, you should go. And then, honestly, [00:46:35] the people that you meet, like, like, uh, we [00:46:40] did it with three people that I met there from Netherlands. They flew all the way there. Actors. [00:46:45] We create the experience.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Mehy Lo Presti: And even for for downtown, we have also [00:46:50] a lot of people that work in events, creating different parts of, of the, of the [00:46:55] two days.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, it’s really interesting that, like you say, in order for [00:47:00] me to feel like I’ve had an experience.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The ingredients of that [00:47:05] are less than obvious. You know, it’s not obvious. [00:47:10] It’s not, it’s not, it’s not just what you do, it’s how you do it. Yeah. So [00:47:15] like what you’re saying about voice bringing you to a different level of sort of meditation, [00:47:20] if you like. Yeah. There’s no sort of logical reason why that might [00:47:25] be. So you can completely miss that. Yeah. And the way that we’re talking about, you know, one speaker [00:47:30] having aura and charisma and the other speaker. They could even be saying the exact [00:47:35] same thing. But one of them has your attention and the other doesn’t. And [00:47:40] like you say, sound and light and the importance of these things to changing [00:47:45] your sort of outlook on things. Have you ever reflected on [00:47:50] how can you translate that to a dental practice setting 100%? Have [00:47:55] you. You must have. Right?

Mehy Lo Presti: I do, and actually I lecture about it. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:48:00] not seen this lecture.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I have a lecture called the Patient Experience Design. Yeah. [00:48:05] Where? I lecture at the European, um, Association, [00:48:10] European, uh, Association of Cosmetic Dentistry in [00:48:15] Sevilla in September and was a lecture about this, about how can you design [00:48:20] the experience of the patient through the journey, but not [00:48:25] only about the communication, not only about the things that we see often, but also [00:48:30] about how we can.

Payman Langroudi: Make some smells and all of that. Is that where we went?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, a little bit like [00:48:35] this. And also what we can get from other industries and how to apply it with the materials and softwares [00:48:40] that we have. So how to create brand experience with your scanner, how to do that with a [00:48:45] 3D printer, how to, uh, and what are the most difficult things [00:48:50] to, to solve, like sound during the, even during the lecture, I trigger motions with [00:48:55] the sound and people was like, oh, you need to stop this. I can’t do it with that. I said, yeah, so it’s a very good, [00:49:00] cool, cool.

Payman Langroudi: So give us some examples. Then give us some examples [00:49:05] of someone, someone’s opening a squat. I’ve got someone coming in actually after you. He’s just about [00:49:10] to totally change a practice. Yeah. What’s your advice? Like what you know from the [00:49:15] you’ve got the obvious things like goals and what you see. [00:49:20] And I think, you know, for me, like when you say take, take inspiration from other industries, sometimes [00:49:25] you go to a spa or something and from the moment you walk in, it’s just like it’s a whole different feeling.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, [00:49:30] well.

Payman Langroudi: A Dental doesn’t have to do that, but maybe yes, it can or it can’t. [00:49:35]

Mehy Lo Presti: But yeah, I don’t know why not.

Payman Langroudi: You know, can it can, it can, it can.

Mehy Lo Presti: And this is something that they do very well. Yeah. [00:49:40] And then we are very resistant to it. Not sure why, you know, I mean, like I know why, you know, [00:49:45] we’re a very conservative industry and then we think things are in a way. And then to change takes time. I think people are going [00:49:50] into that direction.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So no, but okay. I’m setting up the squad. Yeah. I’ve got an example. I went to Robbie Hughes’s [00:49:55] place in Liverpool. Have you been.

Mehy Lo Presti: No.

Payman Langroudi: But what’s amazing about it is, you know, you’re [00:50:00] in events. Yeah. So you know how in events you get the blank space. Yeah. Blank canvas type events, [00:50:05] blank canvas. Basically the. For people who are not in events, the, the, the, the venue [00:50:10] has nothing. It’s just a big open space and you can do whatever the [00:50:15] hell you want with it. And he’s kind of done that with this practice, insomuch as from the outside [00:50:20] it looks like an Ikea or something. It looks like a warehouse, like kind of like that industrial [00:50:25] Warehouse thing. The moment you step in, there’s this [00:50:30] like curated space and big thing in Liverpool spaces a lot cheaper than [00:50:35] in London, right? Because I live next to his London practice, which is much smaller practice. Yeah. [00:50:40] Um, but you know, there’s enough space that he’s got long corridors and his [00:50:45] own surgery. Anyone who’s been there, it’s like the biggest surgery I’ve ever seen. You know, [00:50:50] there’s a, there’s a table like this in the surgery. Then there’s a sofa area, then there’s four big screens [00:50:55] that way. And then there’s, you know, it’s a it’s a totally different experience. So go on. [00:51:00] So if someone was going to do a squat.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. I think this is something important. Also [00:51:05] understanding your demographic. Yeah. Who are the patients that you want to treat?

Payman Langroudi: That’s the right start.

Mehy Lo Presti: Uh, because [00:51:10] if you go to fancy, people might feel overwhelmed and [00:51:15] they might already think, okay, this is not my place. And this is also it happens to us, right? That’s very true. Sometimes [00:51:20] you go to a shop, there’s like, oof, this is too much luxury. It’s going to be so expensive and it’s going to be like, oh, [00:51:25] maybe it’s not. It looks so that you’re like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, personally. Personally, I’ve got trouble in [00:51:30] Bond Street, you know, walking into a shop where there’s no other customers. Yeah. A [00:51:35] uniformed guy on the door and someone standing there like, I can’t, [00:51:40] I can’t do it. No, I can’t if.

Mehy Lo Presti: You want, you’re like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can’t bring myself to go [00:51:45] into that shop.

Mehy Lo Presti: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So, so I get it. So but then that shop’s there for a reason because that’s aiming at someone [00:51:50] else. Who’s who wants that privacy. Oh, 100%. And you make a very good point. You make it very well.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. [00:51:55] I’m not saying it’s the right thing because they are doing well, of course, but it depends what you want to do. You know, maybe you want [00:52:00] to treat one patient a day and then close the whole place for them. I think Robbie, for example, he does this very well [00:52:05] and he knows his clientele. He knows what they want.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, very accessible [00:52:10] there too. Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: No, I’m not saying about that. It’s how what the patients want to [00:52:15] be, to feel. Yeah. I’m not saying I don’t know the prices or anything like that, but they want to feel [00:52:20] that this is super exclusive and I’m super cured. And there’s no there’s no other [00:52:25] person in the world except me right now. And he’s done. I think that very well. But [00:52:30] there are other areas that people might not want, that people might want to feel like, okay, this is a normal [00:52:35] place. It’s actually accessible, easy, accessible. So that’s [00:52:40] number one, understand your, your audience with who you want to talk, walk, um, um, [00:52:45] work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: This happens also in social media. It depends which kind of patients you want [00:52:50] to attract.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Um, second, be the patient yourself. So [00:52:55] see what you would like to be doing in that space, right? Something that I love, for [00:53:00] example, um, is as an architect, uh, and he’s one [00:53:05] of the best designers in the world. He founded house of M.wood. He’s actually speaking at Dental [00:53:10] to, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Who is it? What’s his.

Mehy Lo Presti: Name? He’s, uh, Iranian.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Mehy Lo Presti: I’m [00:53:15] gonna I’m gonna say his surname wrong, but he’s from Netherlands, and he founded [00:53:20] House of Hamad, and he’s done one of the best, some of the best clinics in the world. And, [00:53:25] uh, he does this receptionists clinics right where, [00:53:30] um, and I love that it’s the clinics that there are no receptionists. There are hosts, right? [00:53:35] And you don’t see those desks, that high desks.

Payman Langroudi: Why are they so high? Why are they [00:53:40] so high?

Mehy Lo Presti: I don’t know, I think we’re trying to hide something behind.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Mehy Lo Presti: Field. Yeah. But you know, [00:53:45] again, it can work. I think things are changing in that in that sense. And I think that’s [00:53:50] the way and also the reception where people are waiting. What do you want them to do there? You [00:53:55] know, like sometimes we create.

Payman Langroudi: In the waiting room.

Mehy Lo Presti: Waiting room. Yeah, super uncomfortable spaces. [00:54:00] And it’s like, what? You know, people are very busy. Maybe they want to work there.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across a guy [00:54:05] called Tristan Scott? He’s in Bristol.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I [00:54:10] think he rings a bell.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he he’s got this practice in in the sort of the harbour [00:54:15] area of Bristol. And he’s modelled the waiting room on a, I [00:54:20] don’t know, Singapore airline. Uh, first class seat. Yeah. [00:54:25] Yeah. And but I don’t know how much it cost him. Yeah. Because it, it looks like it’s a bespoke [00:54:30] thing. Someone’s built for him. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Okay. So what [00:54:35] do you want person to do in that room? It’s a good question. Right?

Mehy Lo Presti: You know, how do you want them to feel? And they want to be [00:54:40] like, you know, okay, bring us something that I usually say a lot people, they come from the outside [00:54:45] world and they come from all their problems and disasters. Or maybe they just receive [00:54:50] a £2,000 bill. Maybe they’re going through a divorce. Maybe the kids just throw up before going to [00:54:55] school, and they come rushing to your clinic to do a dental work. You know, [00:55:00] how can we bring them to the level of acceptance [00:55:05] and the level of calm in a in the first instance?

Payman Langroudi: Not [00:55:10] to mention nervous. Yeah. Not to mention nervous.

Mehy Lo Presti: Not even mentioning nervous. I’m not even mentioning it yet. I’m talking about. [00:55:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’re just.

Mehy Lo Presti: Happy. Patient. Yeah. Super happy patient that is happy to come and see you.

Payman Langroudi: For the [00:55:20] stream. Let’s dream big. Let’s dream big. Okay, so it’s a beautiful environment. It’s calm because we’re going for that kind of patient. [00:55:25] What next are we talking? Coffee. You know, this whole thing.

Mehy Lo Presti: You can. Yeah, you can have [00:55:30] that. But for me, the key is reception. The host or the first person to receive that [00:55:35] person is the key. This is going to be what it will, uh. [00:55:40]

Payman Langroudi: Manage set the.

Mehy Lo Presti: Tone, set the tone for the rest of the appointment. So [00:55:45] and this is something that, uh, Pugin also discusses. [00:55:50] This is very difficult to do in London, but it’s two different receptions. One for people that [00:55:55] arrive, one for people that live. So when you arrive, you’re not hearing the discussion of someone that’s living, [00:56:00] paying, uh, you know, uh, seeing a [00:56:05] problem or whatever. So it’s a little bit of differentiating both sides. This is a bit hard to do. [00:56:10] And especially in London, we don’t have so much space, but at least, uh, reduce [00:56:15] the amount of information that is given in that space. Some people move the reception [00:56:20] to an office space in the in a back space, if that’s possible, would be amazing. But those [00:56:25] negative issues, negative problems that are happening in the reception or [00:56:30] problems are getting solved. That can also set the tone of the patient and maybe [00:56:35] start feeling like, oh, I’m not sure I’m in the right place. Um, then [00:56:40] sound, you know, like in Kensington, our the rooms are soundproofed. [00:56:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Mehy Lo Presti: So you can’t hear anything from in or out, which is amazing because you [00:56:50] see it and that’s it. If you’re sitting in a in a place and you’re just hearing the drill and all this [00:56:55] sound is like, it can be a bit stressful, especially if it’s your first time and you even, you [00:57:00] can’t even see what’s happening inside, right? And then you can play with a lot of stuff like the [00:57:05] lights, the.

Payman Langroudi: Music.

Mehy Lo Presti: The music, the, the smells. Um, [00:57:10] there is science behind all of this, which is accessible to everyone. But [00:57:15] you need to have a system to to apply all these [00:57:20] things. You know, this is, I think that what we forget we normally have systems in the room. Well, [00:57:25] ish we have a system to actually how to do a composite, [00:57:30] a full math. Everyone knows what needs to be done outside the the the surgery [00:57:35] know, right? So, so this is what needs to be implemented in the system. [00:57:40] Hey, you’re in charge of this. You’re in charge of that. This needs to happen. This is step one, step two, step three. [00:57:45] And then see what works and doesn’t work and take it from there. So if you [00:57:50] start when you start building the clinic, I think it’s important to have those systems in [00:57:55] place written so people can follow understanding, okay, this is what needs to be happening.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise, [00:58:00] you know, you feel I feel like in dentistry, we don’t have enough people.

Mehy Lo Presti: In [00:58:05] terms of to work.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I know, I know margins [00:58:10] are tight and all of that is true. Yeah. But I feel like, you know, like [00:58:15] in the way that you’re talking about it is there’s a concierge at the door. I think Robbie also does many, many practices. There’s [00:58:20] someone you’re meeting at the door. That person almost has to be your person until [00:58:25] they go into the dental surgery. And so if there’s another person coming, you know.

Mehy Lo Presti: Maybe not, [00:58:30] maybe not doesn’t need to. You need to hold the hands with that person. It’s just the way you receive that person. [00:58:35] It doesn’t feel like you are going to do a transaction. You know, it doesn’t feel like [00:58:40] you are registering in a hospital to do a surgery. You know why [00:58:45] we don’t take this from spa, luxury spa or hotels [00:58:50] where they actually is like, there’s like, okay, how are you? Very good. Are you going to be doing this? [00:58:55] Just have a seat. Sometimes it’s very transactional and sometimes you’re on the phone [00:59:00] and this and that. It’s a bit stressful and it’s really like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, I go to a lot of dental practices. Yeah, [00:59:05] I’ve been to a lot of dental practices and it’s mad the difference between some and others. You know, there [00:59:10] are some where that what the person is trained to open the [00:59:15] door, shake the hand, or welcome the person with their name. [00:59:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before the person even said anything, they know who they are because we all know [00:59:25] who’s coming in. Yeah, sit them down in another area. Coffee. [00:59:30] What do you want? Flat white or this? And it’s actually delicious. Coffee. Yeah. And they’re sitting [00:59:35] waiting before they go in. Yeah. And then others. Well, we know the other one, right? Where the person [00:59:40] hasn’t even got time to look up from the computer. Yeah. You’re standing a bit uncomfortable [00:59:45] waiting in this patient’s coming in and out and all that and everything, everything in between those [00:59:50] two situations. But it does come down to it like a training point.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I [00:59:55] think so. It’s not easy. No. So like, uh, reception is I think they have the hardest job in [01:00:00] the clinic by far. They get all the hits. They get all the, the, everything that patients [01:00:05] don’t want to say to the dentist, they say to the receptionist, they need to Multitask.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:00:10] about. Okay, now the nuance of the dentist patient interaction. So, [01:00:15] for instance, I’m a hot one for the dentist. Going and getting that patient. Yeah. Rather [01:00:20] than a nurse. Yeah. Not only because a nurse is busy, but because I want to set the tone [01:00:25] between you and the patient outside of the treatment room. Yeah. And [01:00:30] almost that to be dictated by you, insomuch as if you’re going [01:00:35] to be kind and sweet and nice. And how’s your day and all that really just starts. [01:00:40] What’s going to happen? Is that do you get your inpatient? Would you?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. The majority of the times. Sometimes [01:00:45] not if I can.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Going back to this needs to be.

Payman Langroudi: A [01:00:50] system.

Mehy Lo Presti: It needs to be like, you know, the clinic to be like, okay, this is how we do it here. Yeah. [01:00:55] And that’s why we do it. Yeah. You know, and explain it because the problem is if you [01:01:00] have the same patient, I receive the patient, but the same patient goes to see the specialist or your colleague [01:01:05] and doesn’t. It’s already. Oh, it’s too important for me to see me. So [01:01:10] this is the thing. Oh, we all do it or no one does it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: So that needs to be very [01:01:15] carefully curated.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that’s a really interesting thing is that once you [01:01:20] get people addicted to this place that they’re coming to, it’s often something. [01:01:25] The reason why I remember there was two coffee shops I could have gone to. The reason I [01:01:30] would go to one over the other wasn’t the coffee. It was the free water. [01:01:35] Free water that one of them had just, you know, where the weather apps [01:01:40] of the thing are because there was free water there. I would go there every day and buy my coffee. You [01:01:45] know, obviously water’s not costing him anything. If it was paid water, I wasn’t even going to buy one. [01:01:50] Yeah. So, so, so what I’m saying is this guy may not even have known that [01:01:55] the reason I’m going there is the free coffee, the free water. But for me, that was the thing. And [01:02:00] the interesting notion of what are the things that addict people to businesses, you [01:02:05] know, like.

Mehy Lo Presti: I think, and you can see this on the Google reviews that people live in the clinic. It’s [01:02:10] all the time, 90, 90, but 70% [01:02:15] is about how the reception, how nice was the receptionist, you know, and there’s always [01:02:20] like this, you know, they might talk about the clinician, oh, amazing team and everything. The reception was so nice. Explained [01:02:25] everything. Is this the key person. And you will probably go to this coffee shop. [01:02:30] I doubt this because of the free water, but it’s how the person serving the coffee felt. Made [01:02:35] you feel. Sure. And it’s like, oh, it’s so nice.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, by the way, by the way, every time I’m on my way to a dentist, [01:02:40] I look at the Google reviews. Yeah, many ways of looking at the Google reviews here because [01:02:45] let’s say you’re going to a clinic and it’s got 300 reviews.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Now just from that fact.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can tell this guy knows how to operate [01:02:55] a review system. Yeah, yeah. So he’s a professional in that sense. Yeah, yeah. Then [01:03:00] you can read the reviews. Obviously you can read all of them or the [01:03:05] first 100 or whatever. Or you can go straight to the one stars and two stars. Yeah. [01:03:10] See what it is, where they where it, where are they failing often in that situation? It’s unlucky [01:03:15] for a dentist. Sometimes it’s like people who wanted NHS and there was no NHS available. So they go [01:03:20] straight in with a one star review. But me, the way I like to read reviews, you know, at [01:03:25] the beginning there’s the key words that are repeated many times and [01:03:30] I like there’s a one word I’m really looking for and it is feel interesting [01:03:35] the way they make you feel. Yeah. And I’ve noticed the ones where the feel comes [01:03:40] up a lot. Every time when I get there, it’s a brilliant team. Everyone’s happy, [01:03:45] you know. It’s like a nice place to be. Yeah. Now, of course, it could say receptionist. [01:03:50] It could say they’re great words too. They’re brilliant words. Yeah. Receptionist. [01:03:55] Hygienist. But but I’ve found that’s a really good way of sort of looking at reviews. [01:04:00]

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah. That’s true, that’s true.

Payman Langroudi: For the place.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So are [01:04:05] we going to see this clinic of yours? Do you think you’re never going to be a clinic owner because you don’t define [01:04:10] yourself as a dentist so much as like, that’s because you could do an amazing [01:04:15] clinic.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I always I mean, I’m lucky to, to work in amazing places, you know, [01:04:20] and.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the one on Church Street, Kensington church Street, beautiful place.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The Kensington [01:04:25] dentist, beautiful place.

Mehy Lo Presti: And, you know, very too much a lot [01:04:30] of attention to detail. And, you know, we do amazing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying you’re [01:04:35] happy and so there’s not a good reason to to leave. Is that what you mean?

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean, I’m in a I mean, look, [01:04:40] it’s I’m very comfortable. I’m very happy. And it’s more about [01:04:45] do you want to be an associate of an or an owner? Yeah. And I think I took the decision [01:04:50] to not put my energy on owning a clinic. [01:04:55] Um, maybe I choose the path on more on the educational side in terms [01:05:00] of like putting my time on building up the in town and [01:05:05] events and do something bigger. Uh, so I think, [01:05:10] you know, it depends and also the ecosystem on owning a clinic. It’s going to, it’s changing, [01:05:15] it’s going to change. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not sure or have you ruled it [01:05:20] out?

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean, I thought, I’m sure I always think, I’m sure that I wouldn’t. And [01:05:25] sometimes I think, oh, what if I agree? I think, I think I would, I would make.

Payman Langroudi: You do [01:05:30] a good job. You do a good job for sure.

Mehy Lo Presti: I think I would do a nice place and I’m very inspired with the places I [01:05:35] worked. And this is, you know, again.

Payman Langroudi: And it looks it’s an interesting question here. Let’s say you never looked at [01:05:40] global Dental collective, never looked at education, but the amount of effort and time [01:05:45] and thinking time, brain time that you put into those, you put into a clinic. Yeah. [01:05:50] Or, or 11. Yeah. Because you know, your, your contacts with Sarita and all that, you could [01:05:55] go private equity, raise loads of money. It’s possible My wife’s doing that right now, right?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah. [01:06:00] So but it’s interesting to think like that sliding door that started you in the events [01:06:05] education space could easily have been this. And [01:06:10] you know that, you know how we end up sort of persuading ourselves who we are. Like, [01:06:15] like you tell yourself a lie about who you are when you buy anything. You know, it’s like, you know, you could buy yourself a nice [01:06:20] watch. You tell yourself a little lie there. Yeah. About. I’m the kind of person who’s. You know. [01:06:25]

Mehy Lo Presti: Why? Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You define yourself in the way it almost makes you feel. The [01:06:30] things you do. Um, it makes you feel good to do education, I’m sure. Yeah, but [01:06:35] I wouldn’t rule it out. I wouldn’t rule out a clinic for you. Yeah. Because I reckon it would be [01:06:40] very, very nice and interesting.

Mehy Lo Presti: I would, I would like if I do it, I would like to do it with friends or with, [01:06:45] you know, a team. I wouldn’t like to do it.

Payman Langroudi: I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. Because maybe I’m like you [01:06:50] as well. Yeah. There are things I’m really good at, and there’s things I’m really, really bad at. I don’t [01:06:55] need partners for those other bits.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah, I don’t think, you know, I’m a good curator. I can, [01:07:00] you know, I’m a good person on saying we’re going that direction. The daily [01:07:05] management of people I would struggle, I would struggle and it’s something I struggle. I’m not confrontational [01:07:10] at all. So I was, you know, I can’t tell people to do things [01:07:15] and that’s a big problem. I know what you mean. So [01:07:20] I always think, you know, and it’s always there in the back of my head, oh, what if you know, [01:07:25] but, you know, I’m happy with what I’m doing. Uh, it gives me a lot of freedom [01:07:30] too. And this is also something that’s priority in my life, especially, you know, we live kind of [01:07:35] in between Spain and here. We spend a lot of time there, um, a lot of time here. [01:07:40] So having a base, it would kind of make me stuck in [01:07:45] a place. And this is something that is the reason number one, probably of why not why I’m not doing it. [01:07:50] So that’s why if I can do it with people that, you know, I don’t have to be 100% a [01:07:55] formula where I could bring my part to it. Yeah, I could [01:08:00] work.

Payman Langroudi: In another universe. Yeah, you and Sarita could have done an interesting Dental business [01:08:05] because she’s she’s she’s. She seems pretty good at telling people what to do. She’s. Yeah. [01:08:10]

Mehy Lo Presti: I know that. No, she’s, [01:08:15] uh, I don’t know if she she doesn’t like much the Dental world. She sees [01:08:20] the struggles and she prefers to be a bit [01:08:25] step back from the the patient connection. She likes to work with. [01:08:30] Now she’s working with gynaecologists, with fertility experts. So she would be very good at working with dentists. [01:08:35] Uh, but then when she needs to deal with the with the patients. No, she would [01:08:40] be like, no, no, this is not my, you know, I can’t deal with this, which is understandable. You know, [01:08:45] it’s it’s very hard. Um, but yeah, I think we, you know, we always think about if [01:08:50] we do something together, it would be great. Um is another step in the relationship. [01:08:55] Work together and builds.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you could go into the fertility world as well. That’s easier. [01:09:00]

Mehy Lo Presti: It’s at this point, it’s way easier that I work for her [01:09:05] than, than than going to the Dental world. And also she she hates events. [01:09:10] She’s like, I don’t know how you do this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard. Do you know what it is about events studio? Whenever [01:09:15] I’ve done it, yeah, I’ve. It’s the excitement is so high at the beginning. [01:09:20] Yeah. That, you know, once you think of an idea and you’re going to do it and you’re going to be different and it’s [01:09:25] going to be great. And then if you’ve given yourself enough [01:09:30] time, and I’d say enough time is a minimum of six months, kind of for the marketing [01:09:35] phase, if you like. Yeah. If you have given yourself enough time, the whole of that [01:09:40] six months, you’ve got this worry of, am I going to lose money or not? It’s [01:09:45] a continuous worry. And then the thing I find hardest about events [01:09:50] and maybe hard nosed events managers don’t care. Yeah, but [01:09:55] the better the event is, the less money you make.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, it’s like everything in life. [01:10:00] No, it’s like dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Like dentistry.

Mehy Lo Presti: Like that’s exactly like dentistry. The dentistry you do, the less money you [01:10:05] make. Yeah, but you know, you need.

Payman Langroudi: That breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that, you know, I want [01:10:10] this event to have the best AV. And I want this event to have the best food and the best experience and the best every [01:10:15] time I add one of those things to it.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, but it.

Payman Langroudi: Takes it takes from the and you see event [01:10:20] companies who don’t give a give a damn as much. Yeah. And because that’s their business. [01:10:25] Right. And so they’ll have 500 people sitting in front of a plasma screen. Yeah. [01:10:30] Can’t bring myself to do it, man, I wish I could.

Mehy Lo Presti: I wish I could. My life would be way [01:10:35] easier. Yeah, but I think things are changing. [01:10:40] Yeah. I think those events are going to struggle. They are struggling.

Payman Langroudi: To pull their socks.

Mehy Lo Presti: Up. Yeah. [01:10:45] And and, you know, this is like everything, you know, it’s not only events like you build a house. The. The [01:10:50] more quality you put in the materials, the less money you’re going to make. So it depends on how you budget [01:10:55] it. And you know, we, we try to and we’ve been trying [01:11:00] to cover costs to hire people to do better things and grow and grow and grow and [01:11:05] get professionals that they do. Uh, they know how to do this in a, in a very good way. And this [01:11:10] has been our, our reason. But yeah, I agree. Like everything, the better [01:11:15] you do things, the less money you’re going to make until probably at some point, they value it enough [01:11:20] to pay the, the price. [01:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s six months of pain, you know. So whenever I do an event, it’s very painful. I mean, whenever I do an event, [01:11:30] I actually feel like it’s detracted from my core business.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. It takes like I don’t sleep. [01:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: And also it also adds to the core business, but the amount of work and pain and effort that goes in. Yeah. [01:11:40] If I put that into teeth whitening, I can probably get a bigger return. But there is something magical [01:11:45] about them.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, this is the thing, you know, And this is what people are going to events. And I [01:11:50] see this a lot and underestimates the time and effort. It is how hard it is. And [01:11:55] so I see.

Payman Langroudi: The risk here. The risk is.

Mehy Lo Presti: You know, and is it worth it? You know, [01:12:00] like at the end, like I see like, you know, we’ve seen a lot of events that they do one, two and [01:12:05] that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re a glutton for punishment. Like as soon as your event’s finished, you’re thinking of another event.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, [01:12:10] yeah, I released it straight out straight in the same event. You’re constantly running 20, 2728. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’re constantly you have the headache, right?

Mehy Lo Presti: You have to, you have to because you know. [01:12:20]

Payman Langroudi: The speakers.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, you need to, especially places to, if you want a good space, [01:12:25] especially in London, you need to almost get it with a year in advance. Um, [01:12:30] and then also, you know, you should launch the same day of the, [01:12:35] when the other events. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, at least you get traction. Uh, [01:12:40] people don’t understand why we do. So the problem of that you’re saying is like 45% [01:12:45] of the people. They tend to buy their tickets the week before [01:12:50] or two weeks before the event. This is a nightmare, right? So we [01:12:55] do all this early birds and offers, and we are trying [01:13:00] to, uh, compensate people buying early to [01:13:05] at least knowing what are we doing, right? It’s not because we’re like, I hate [01:13:10] it that we are trying to be pushy and helping people and facilitating people to buy that they’re [01:13:15] going to buy. Yeah, yeah. But for us, you know, it’s better for our peace of mind if they buy now. [01:13:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure.

Mehy Lo Presti: Than if they buy the week before. And I’ll be honest, I’m the worst. I also [01:13:25] buy the day before, you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: I buy on the day.

Mehy Lo Presti: On the day. So, [01:13:30] you know, I know that we and we’ve sold out all our events and, [01:13:35] uh, we think we’re going to do this again, but [01:13:40] yeah, um, the risk is bigger, right? There’s more people, more costs, more logistics, [01:13:45] and like, more Lenoir. We had 70 people working on the event. [01:13:50]

Payman Langroudi: 70 people.

Mehy Lo Presti: 450 guests.

Payman Langroudi: My goodness.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. Yeah. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because it’s food and all that, right?

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, the food waiters, actors, volunteers, [01:14:00] um, the people that are working through the year, like now [01:14:05] we have a team of six, seven people working through the whole year. Uh, [01:14:10] but then you add all the time, you know, production AV so [01:14:15] you have a lot of people. So to put all this together and it’s a lot of [01:14:20] costs that go in advance. Thankfully. Also, we have a lot of like sponsors [01:14:25] that, you know, they support us. Something that was not understanding in the past how the sponsorship [01:14:30] work and why it’s like, you know, it’s the key because people would, you know, need to [01:14:35] pay them otherwise like £5,000 per ticket. Yeah. So, so it’s, it’s [01:14:40] great. And it’s speedboat. By this. The struggle is real. You know, when people like try to do events for [01:14:45] 100 people. Without a [01:14:50] vision or a bigger vision or a direction, it’s not worth it. That’s why we had to change the model.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:55] then there’s the other model, right? Which is the year course kind of you mentioned chrissoren type thing. [01:15:00] Have you considered that kind of event? I mean, you know, loads of good teachers.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, we would love to do something [01:15:05] like that.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a spin off from from this maybe.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, it’s I mean, we [01:15:10] are all about collaboration, you know? And I think there are people way better than us doing [01:15:15] these things. And we would love to, you know, help or to produce a [01:15:20] course done by someone that is already doing it. I don’t think we would [01:15:25] be doing ourselves something like that. Our mission is to do this big downtown [01:15:30] every year where we become a bit the epicentre [01:15:35] of dentistry, where everyone can have something happening in that, in [01:15:40] these two, three, four days, right? And this is this is what we would like to do. Then [01:15:45] through all the year, the Dental events is an ecosystem. Everything needs to [01:15:50] happen. They need to be trade shows need to be courses of one day or two days, one year long. But [01:15:55] we love to collaborate with other events that. How can we amplify [01:16:00] the experience of what they do already? We tried a few things and it’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting idea, isn’t it? [01:16:05] So let’s say you’ve got some guy who’s a good teacher but can’t be bothered with the [01:16:10] other side. Yeah. And then collaborate and do the other side.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, we’ve done this. We did [01:16:15] this with, uh, Doctor Ernest Lucas. He’s, uh, an incredible [01:16:20] surgeon. I work with one of the most talented surgeons in the world. And [01:16:25] it was, it was the it was what happened. He was like, look, I want to give a [01:16:30] lecture. I’m super busy and I can’t deal with with the rest. It’s like, okay, [01:16:35] we’ll give you the we did it. Hackney Wick in number 90 at Bruno’s pace, we [01:16:40] did a super cool, uh, two days, um, lecture [01:16:45] workshop. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was amazing. So it’s, it’s something that we, we explore [01:16:50] and again, in understanding, okay, how can we twist and improve [01:16:55] what already is on and we trigger all these different, the layouts, [01:17:00] the lights, the way everything is delivered, the food, the [01:17:05] music that they hear is a little bit like the patient experience that we’re talking.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mehy Lo Presti: Exactly. Yeah. [01:17:10]

Payman Langroudi: So now let’s get to mistakes again while we’re on the events. What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made [01:17:15] in events?

Mehy Lo Presti: In events? Wow. Hundreds. Uh. [01:17:20] I think, uh. Probably [01:17:25] like the one I felt a little [01:17:30] bit, uh, that was harder was an event I did about vulnerability. It [01:17:35] was a topic that people were not understanding. And [01:17:40] I think that was a bit. This is where my trigger point was about like, okay, [01:17:45] we want to. I want to do uplifting events. It was a bit of a dark.

Payman Langroudi: It was a downer. [01:17:50]

Mehy Lo Presti: It was a downer. And I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Want the thought. The thought you had was the notion of like a [01:17:55] safe space, a safe.

Mehy Lo Presti: Space.

Payman Langroudi: Where you can say anything about your. And so everyone was saying, [01:18:00] oh, they want to be sued and.

Mehy Lo Presti: No. Yeah, it was amazing, you know, but I left that room. I was like, I don’t want to feel [01:18:05] like this in my events. I don’t want to live like this. It’s interesting. Yeah. And [01:18:10] well, and then more and more, uh, it was a big technical, uh, [01:18:15] problem.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you said the sound.

Mehy Lo Presti: The sound.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting.

Mehy Lo Presti: The [01:18:20] sound. We were like, we tested and we tried and everything was okay, but we didn’t count with [01:18:25] having 200 people in the room and everyone was saying. And that was making [01:18:30] a huge sound. So the sound wasn’t clear. Uh, And then [01:18:35] obviously underestimating spaces timings. But that that [01:18:40] was probably the it’s always technical things, always technical things.

Payman Langroudi: I always say to people who are doing events [01:18:45] for the first time, I tell them, listen, think of it as like a wedding or something. We’re [01:18:50] always in a wedding. One thing is going to go very wrong. Yeah, and it’s almost [01:18:55] like you’re waiting for that one thing. And when it happens, you’re like, oh, there it is. You [01:19:00] know, like recognising it almost like in a way, like meditation. You know, when they say, let the problem [01:19:05] come see it, don’t feel it and just push it away from you. Because when [01:19:10] you’re, when you’re ambitious, especially, you’re trying to do things for the first time.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah. But this is the difference [01:19:15] between amazing events, uh, managers or organisers. Those are the [01:19:20] ones that think about everything that’s going to go wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Contingencies.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. And they, and this is what I [01:19:25] learned from, from in the college that I was telling you before, there are people that they do immersive experiences [01:19:30] and you play role models for a week. There’s this this one [01:19:35] of the founders. He created this experience that you were a rock star for two weeks, going [01:19:40] from east to to the West Coast in the United States, doing concerts. [01:19:45] Uh.

Payman Langroudi: People were buying this experience. Yeah. How interesting.

Mehy Lo Presti: Amazing. You know? And, [01:19:50] or he builds this, this world’s where you are [01:19:55] a character and imagine all the things that can go wrong because you need to arrive [01:20:00] to that door and that door needs to open. And it’s like, what if the key is not there? [01:20:05] You know what we do. And then he started thinking about all the things that can go wrong. And this is how [01:20:10] he starts building events from the side of what can go wrong. So [01:20:15] you put step one. Okay, good. Now what can go wrong here? Fine. Solved. Step two. [01:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Mehy Lo Presti: And this is a bit how you can, but there are things that you know you [01:20:25] can’t control.

Payman Langroudi: Shit happens.

Mehy Lo Presti: Shit happens all the time. But this is the beauty. I always say [01:20:30] the day of the event, I go to the venue expecting to solve at least 50 [01:20:35] problems. Yeah. You know, and you have to go do that mentality, you know? And then host the event. And [01:20:40] then people that they have an issue, they haven’t done the issue. They don’t come. They don’t. [01:20:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How about what about clinical. Clinical mistakes. We started [01:20:50] on it but we didn’t finish.

Mehy Lo Presti: Uh, I think, uh.

Payman Langroudi: This patient. [01:20:55]

Mehy Lo Presti: Uh, well, hardest patient. I [01:21:00] mean, I’ve been lucky, you know, I didn’t have very, very, [01:21:05] very bad.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no, no, I just saw it in your eyes there when you when you, I saw it, I saw it. Just [01:21:10] say it. Just say it. Just say it, man, I saw it, I saw it in your eyes. I saw it in your eyes. There’s a story. [01:21:15] Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: No, I think the one I felt was like a full math where, [01:21:20] where we were inserting, like, you know, there were like 24 units and [01:21:25] none of them fitted.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Mehy Lo Presti: I think maybe [01:21:30] the the impression material didn’t set properly.

Payman Langroudi: Or something.

Mehy Lo Presti: And maybe [01:21:35] shrunk.

Payman Langroudi: Not a single one was fitting.

Mehy Lo Presti: Not a single one. And all of them.

Payman Langroudi: Clearly something [01:21:40] was.

Mehy Lo Presti: Was wasn’t done properly, most likely on my side. Um, obviously [01:21:45] you blame the lab.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:21:50] poor labs.

Mehy Lo Presti: Poor labs. Yeah. Poor labs. Sorry, but yeah. Um, but [01:21:55] yeah, probably that was like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So what did you done? You taken all the temporaries off and nothing [01:22:00] was off.

Mehy Lo Presti: Then you’re there, you’re like, oh my God, nothing is fitting. And [01:22:05] then you have to take impressions.

Payman Langroudi: Impressions of course. [01:22:10]

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, of course, impressions and retraction cords. Uh, well, yeah. [01:22:15]

Payman Langroudi: When you think it’s about to end and it’s actually right at the beginning.

Mehy Lo Presti: When you’re like there and then like the first one. Oh, okay, [01:22:20] I’ll modify this later if I can second one. And then you start like, okay, it’s all of them. [01:22:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Mehy Lo Presti: And then you’re like, you know, you’re like, look. Thankfully, she was [01:22:30] very understanding the patient she was travelling from far to. So, you know, it’s just [01:22:35] like, you feel bad for people, you know, it’s like, what can you do? You know.

Payman Langroudi: That does [01:22:40] sound like a good, good news story in the end though. Yeah. Like a happy ending. Is it was there an unhappy ending? [01:22:45] One where let’s just say, I don’t know the patient, but the patient lost confidence and didn’t come [01:22:50] back. Something like that.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, that happens. That happened once. [01:22:55] And you know, I don’t know what you can do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what happened? [01:23:00] What was the situation?

Mehy Lo Presti: I think it was a case that they didn’t finish, uh, as [01:23:05] we were expecting. And then the patient was in, you know, uh, [01:23:10] she, she didn’t have trust on that. This would be finishing. I think it [01:23:15] was a liners case. And then, and then we [01:23:20] had to.

Payman Langroudi: Get very picky at the end of the line.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, it makes sense. It’s like a very stressful, [01:23:25] not stressful, but you know, it’s very consuming, right?

Payman Langroudi: And the weird thing, I’ve [01:23:30] been through it myself with my kids. Yeah. That near the end of a line, particularly my wife, who’s a dentist, [01:23:35] becomes almost obsessive about a one millimetre rotation or something. [01:23:40] And then, but the weird thing is, the moment you say, okay, it’s over, then you [01:23:45] never even see that again. You don’t even notice it again.

Mehy Lo Presti: No no, no.

Payman Langroudi: No, but it’s the fact that, you know, this [01:23:50] is your last chance to fix it. You know.

Mehy Lo Presti: You’ve been so like, I don’t know if you were like two years [01:23:55] with aligners or whatever. And it’s like, well, once I’ve gone through, gone through all of this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:24:00] yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, let’s get this millimetre. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So the guy gave up. Thought you can’t do this. Went complained [01:24:05] money back.

Mehy Lo Presti: No no no no no. It’s like I want to see another dentist. And I was like, okay, you [01:24:10] know, I mean, I bet the result was the result was the same, you know, like it’s [01:24:15] how it is, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah, of course I understand, [01:24:20] you know, like people like, most likely it was my fault, you in terms of communication [01:24:25] and setting expectations. Things that you don’t do at the beginning. You don’t know how to set expectations [01:24:30] at the beginning of your career.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s take the fault for everything, isn’t it? Just it’s just correct. You start blaming [01:24:35] the patient. You’re in all sorts of trouble.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, you can’t, you know. Yeah. You won’t go anywhere. Yeah. Um, [01:24:40] of course there are things that are unfair and, you know, but, um, [01:24:45] at the end, you know, understand, you know, patients are going through things. It’s what we were saying. People [01:24:50] have their own problems. Um, and also adding this, uh, [01:24:55] things, but I think it’s the key and this is the problem that we do is setting the right expectations. [01:25:00] Yeah. This is what those cases where things go wrong and things get [01:25:05] upset is because you didn’t say this might happen. Yeah. In a clear way. [01:25:10] And this is it. People don’t get upset because things the treatment is not right. People [01:25:15] get upset because you didn’t tell them that it might go wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Man. If me and you treat [01:25:20] the same patient the same way, depending on what you said and what I said 100%. [01:25:25] It’s a massive difference. You could look like an expert. Yeah. When something fails, [01:25:30] if you’ve warned that it might fail. Yeah. Whereas if I haven’t warned that it failed. I look [01:25:35] like a charlatan. You know, it’s.

Mehy Lo Presti: Surgeons like like ha, like heart surgeon [01:25:40] cardiologists. They do this very well. It’s like a 50 over 50. Imagine you say this to to as.

Payman Langroudi: Long as they come [01:25:45] out alive.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. It’s like 50. Oh, okay. Well, but you know, you don’t you you don’t think he’s he’s [01:25:50] a bad doctor.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: You think he’s an honest doctor and he’s going to do the best for me.

Payman Langroudi: And he knows [01:25:55] what could go wrong. Yeah. That’s another.

Mehy Lo Presti: So the same. You know, I don’t know why we have that fear of telling the patients [01:26:00] like, look, this is going to go wrong or this or this is not going to happen. Um, and then we get in [01:26:05] trouble because of that. And sometimes it’s just a, because we forget. Sometimes it’s because.

Payman Langroudi: You know what it is if you’re an [01:26:10] expert. Yeah. You end up feeling like you’ve, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve, you’re [01:26:15] it’s okay to say what could go wrong. It’s when you’re out of your depth. Yeah. That [01:26:20] it can become a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And often when you’re out of your depth, you cover it up with extra confidence. [01:26:25] You overcompensate with confidence. Yeah. That’s where stuff starts to [01:26:30] go wrong. Yeah. Because if you feel like you know what you’re talking about, telling people about what could go wrong actually [01:26:35] is almost like an extra bit of. Like this guy knows the pitfalls. [01:26:40] Yeah. You know.

Mehy Lo Presti: And also, you know, also, I see it in a way of we not [01:26:45] knowing how to handle certain patients. You know, like some, some kind of certain [01:26:50] energies that you feel a little bit like.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you just don’t vibe with them.

Mehy Lo Presti: No, you don’t vibe. [01:26:55] You don’t feel comfortable to tell them how things are. No. And then [01:27:00] you end up treating them.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever come across a body dysmorphic situation, like [01:27:05] where someone is blaming all their problems in the world on the way your veneers look? [01:27:10]

Mehy Lo Presti: Um, no, I don’t have a problem with that. But I have, you know, you have problems [01:27:15] with people like, you know, getting obsessed with a specific thing for for years. [01:27:20] And then again, it’s a problem of not managing this patient before [01:27:25] starting the treatment.

Payman Langroudi: I was talking to you about it and she was saying that sometimes [01:27:30] what the patients complaining of is so small, but as [01:27:35] long as she can see what the patient is complaining about, she’ll take it [01:27:40] seriously and try and fix it. But she says the danger one is where she can’t see what the patient is saying [01:27:45] 100%.

Mehy Lo Presti: And that’s a good that’s a very good advice.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good line, isn’t it? A good.

Mehy Lo Presti: Line?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:50] Because if you can’t see it. Yeah, definitely don’t go in like do anything.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah [01:27:55] yeah yeah I agree. And you know it’s our nature, right? We want [01:28:00] to help them. We want to do the best for them. We want to, you know, and it’s not about [01:28:05] the money.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just about you’re absolutely right. In private dentistry, it’s so much more like a service [01:28:10] business. You’re in constant yes mode.

Mehy Lo Presti: You’re not going [01:28:15] to make money out of that case, you know. You know that you’re going to lose money because it’s going to be there. But you want to help. Yeah. And [01:28:20] you still, it’s so hard for us to say, like, I can’t help you, you know, because we feel like we’re failing [01:28:25] them, right? And in a way, you know, you know, you’re going to lose money there.

Payman Langroudi: So have you developed [01:28:30] like a sixth sense about where to say no?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what [01:28:35] I mean? Do you know what I mean by sixth sense? It’s almost like you don’t know why, but something’s off. Yeah. [01:28:40]

Mehy Lo Presti: But do you know this? As an associate, it’s hard to to take [01:28:45] those decisions right where you want to stop. Treating the patient, you need to be very aligned [01:28:50] with the clinic in terms of like understanding, okay, are we all together? And we don’t [01:28:55] treat this patient or I’m going to say no, and then someone is going to take [01:29:00] it, and then it’s going to be like, you know, you’re going to look bad. And then at the end, it ends up [01:29:05] being a problem for the other person. So it’s, yeah, I have this sixth sense, but sometimes like, [01:29:10] okay, it’s not going to go well, but what do I do here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So those [01:29:15] are things that also is good to have that conversation with, with the clinic itself.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:29:20] comes to mind when I say favourite book or resource or podcast [01:29:25] or either within or outside of dentistry? Okay. You said that college of experiences, whatever. [01:29:30]

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. Well, now I’m obsessed with anything that is about immersive experience. [01:29:35] Uh, events like the science.

Payman Langroudi: Are you looking into that?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. [01:29:40] Like the science behind the events and how people are, how [01:29:45] everything is evolving and how what people want to make, uh, how, what feeling [01:29:50] they want to have from an event, how to trigger emotions. That’s now I [01:29:55] love all of this stuff. Uh, so I’m very much into it. And it’s cool because [01:30:00] you can apply some stuff to dentistry too in terms of clinical. Um, [01:30:05] I mean, I’m a, I’m a big fan of Pascal Magne, so [01:30:10] his books are always been like a bit like the Bible.

Payman Langroudi: On your shelf, huh?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah. [01:30:15] Uh, so I think this is a book that, you know, you [01:30:20] can, you can, uh, agree or disagree on [01:30:25] techniques, you know, but how everything has been written and the passion behind [01:30:30] for me is like a good principles to have. And then you can modify whatever you think, uh, [01:30:35] in social media, I think, uh, really like how Marcus Blatz has, [01:30:40] uh, transformed, uh, evidence based education [01:30:45] on making it snippets and it’s very, very bite size. I love it and I think it’s, [01:30:50] it’s the way and it’s good to do that. You do it, but you put the reference and then you [01:30:55] go, if you want to go deeper into it, uh, you need to read x, Y, z. But [01:31:00] I think he does it very well and explain the reasons. Again, you can agree or disagree [01:31:05] on, on, on some stuff obviously, but I think it’s a good way of engaging. [01:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I mean, the good thing is like, if you want to go deep with him, you can. You [01:31:15] know, for sure that’s the other side of it that, you know, he’s a professor. He knows his [01:31:20] stuff.

Mehy Lo Presti: Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: And yet manages to make it. I always think about education, like almost [01:31:25] like breadth or depth. Yeah. And some people manage both, you know, they somehow manage it. I think [01:31:30] Chris was very good like that. He he’ll give you a lot of breadth if you want to go deep, [01:31:35] he’ll go deep with you. Yeah. But but you know, he manages a good combination of breadth and depth, [01:31:40] you know, in his teaching. I’ve enjoyed [01:31:45] this. I’ve enjoyed this. Good.

[BOTH]: It’s a good start.

Payman Langroudi: As long as [01:31:50] I enjoyed it.

[BOTH]: I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it all. Yeah. As far as we enjoy here.

Mehy Lo Presti: The rest would come [01:31:55] up.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve been going for a long time.

[BOTH]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean we already had a lot of conversations [01:32:00] outside here. So it’s.

[BOTH]: Good to put.

Mehy Lo Presti: It actually summarise it here.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. But [01:32:05] the final questions that we like to ask Fantasy dinner [01:32:10] party.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, you know that like dinner parties.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:32:15] know you like dinner parties. We go to a very nice dinner parties together.

Mehy Lo Presti: But, uh, you [01:32:20] know, a.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive.

Mehy Lo Presti: Do [01:32:25] you know what I, I, I always thought about these questions, and I always, [01:32:30] I met some people that I really admired and I met them on dinner and I got [01:32:35] so disappointed.

Payman Langroudi: It can happen.

Mehy Lo Presti: It can happen. So I’m kind of like, you know, I stopped thinking. [01:32:40]

[BOTH]: I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t want to.

[BOTH]: Risk.

Mehy Lo Presti: It. I don’t want to risk it anymore. So, you know, I it would [01:32:45] cost me a lot understanding who would I like to to speak. But for sure, [01:32:50] people that can probably not they’re not famous and they can actually enjoy [01:32:55] having dinners with people that I can learn from and make me speechless. [01:33:00] And I don’t need to talk. Uh, but if you ask me, people [01:33:05] and I’m going to get a bit romantic here, Uh, I think my grandparents are [01:33:10] nice. I think like, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Which which ones?

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, I, I [01:33:15] the all four in the prime. I only met my, [01:33:20] my dad’s mom. She was quite old, so I really didn’t [01:33:25] understand. Uh, where was she coming from? But I would like to understand where I’m coming from, [01:33:30] why I’m being educated this way. How? My parents. Why they’re thinking [01:33:35] that way. And and I think, well, I think no, I know there were brilliant, uh, [01:33:40] what they were doing. And I think I would love to understand why I [01:33:45] do what I do. And I think a lot of it comes.

Payman Langroudi: From a good place to look. Right?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, I think that’s [01:33:50] I mean, I was always no. Yeah. Like we should look at why we do things is where we’re [01:33:55] coming from. And I know that now we try, you know, when you become parents and then you try to break [01:34:00] that, uh, chain of actions [01:34:05] and thoughts and starving a dad, uh, without any [01:34:10] thinking from the past or from your ancestors? Yeah, but I think it’s important to actually [01:34:15] understanding why I believe in things that you do.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:34:20] look, your mom’s side. Very interesting, but I’d like to go into your [01:34:25] dad’s side as far as grandparents. Your dad, you said, was a refugee [01:34:30] from Palestine. Yeah. What was the situation with your grandparents in Palestine? [01:34:35] They were living there.

Mehy Lo Presti: They were living there. They? Yeah, they [01:34:40] were in Palestine. They exist. And, uh, they have, [01:34:45] uh, a great life. Um, my, my, my [01:34:50] granddad actually on the, in the 67 invested all his money [01:34:55] on creating this, uh, factory of, uh. [01:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: In Israel now.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, not in Gaza.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, in Gaza, in Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: And then [01:35:05] basically it got destroyed from one day to the other. All the money that he [01:35:10] made, all his life invested in that factory, that from one end to the other was [01:35:15] gone. And then obviously, you know, my dad.

Payman Langroudi: Did you grandparents [01:35:20] carry on living in Gaza?

Mehy Lo Presti: He so in the 67, uh, my [01:35:25] dad left 66, 67. My dad just before the war, my dad [01:35:30] left. It was six. And with his brother, little brother and sisters [01:35:35] and his mom.

Payman Langroudi: To.

[BOTH]: Wear.

Mehy Lo Presti: To Cairo. And at the age of six, [01:35:40] they told him and his two his older brothers and dad, they stayed in Gaza until [01:35:45] after the war. So with six years old, they told him like, you are [01:35:50] the man of the family now, so you need to look after your [01:35:55] whole family. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And then the repetitions, the repetitions [01:36:00] of the, all the things that have happened in that area. Does [01:36:05] that does that sort of, you know, you were just talking about sort of hereditary. [01:36:10] Hereditary pain and suffering.

[BOTH]: Yeah. Oh, this [01:36:15] is something.

Payman Langroudi: The echoes of that. Like do you feel the echoes of that? Do you feel like. Of course you do. [01:36:20] And you watch what’s happening right now. But do you feel like it’s something that’s going to go into your [01:36:25] kids and.

[BOTH]: Well, this is a great question.

Mehy Lo Presti: And this is something I went through therapy, a very strong [01:36:30] therapy. As soon as, uh, my daughter was born, she was born.

[BOTH]: She [01:36:35] was born.

Payman Langroudi: Right around then.

Mehy Lo Presti: She was born a month after October 7th.

[BOTH]: Wow.

Mehy Lo Presti: And, and [01:36:40] obviously that was a very, very, very, very difficult time for me. Um. [01:36:45]

[BOTH]: Watching what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened to all these other kids.

Mehy Lo Presti: Watching what happened and also not being [01:36:50] able to. I got into a black hole, right? Of thoughts of negativity, of, uh, not [01:36:55] being able to, to do anything. Watching what happens to all of these kids and families [01:37:00] and my own family is still there.

[BOTH]: Still there now. [01:37:05]

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I have first cousins that are there and you [01:37:10] feel like powerless and guilty. And, and my first [01:37:15] worry was, uh, me transmitting this to my daughter. I [01:37:20] was believing I was already, like, projecting this bad energy that she she didn’t, [01:37:25] uh, deserve. And to my wife, which she just gave birth [01:37:30] and she was going through all the postpartum process and I felt like I wasn’t there. [01:37:35] I wasn’t the, the person that I needed. And that made me feel terrible. [01:37:40] And all the aspects from work, from, I mean, even the events, right? I [01:37:45] ended up doing an event about vulnerability. Imagine how, where was my, my, my mind was [01:37:50] in the darkest days of, of my, my, my life. And I [01:37:55] did like a very strong therapy, uh, intense. Where [01:38:00] I managed to see things from from, from perspective. And, [01:38:05] you know, I understood that, you know, I have a massive war already in my house, [01:38:10] right? There’s a big conflict in my house I need to solve. And, and once this [01:38:15] is sorted, I can start looking at the rest of the world. But I can’t solve anything happening [01:38:20] anywhere, you know, and that you make that guilt that you have about like, oh, she [01:38:25] should do something. I can do something. And if I’m not doing it, I’m not a good person. [01:38:30] And, you know, little by little.

[BOTH]: Around.

Payman Langroudi: The same time [01:38:35] you broke with Joe Lovett as well.

[BOTH]: Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Also that was, uh, at [01:38:40] that time. Exactly. So it was everything, you know, like, yeah, it was a lot. It was like, you know, [01:38:45] it was never, it’s never nice to, to, uh, you [01:38:50] know, pathways, pathways with someone that you build something [01:38:55] for one reason or the other. It’s just like, you know, it’s not a positive experience, let’s [01:39:00] say, you know, and it wasn’t, uh, so we, you know, it was.

[BOTH]: Everything was.

Payman Langroudi: Understandable, [01:39:05] even, okay, I’m not connected to the area like you are, but my [01:39:10] wife is from Beirut, which is down the road and all of that, even not [01:39:15] connected to it. You feel it?

[BOTH]: I think so when. [01:39:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’re when you’re connected to it even more. And then and then the repetition, the fact that it’s happened again [01:39:25] and again and again and again, and we forget the number of times in 2016, [01:39:30] one moment and then in 2019, the moment, you know, there’s so many [01:39:35] of those that, you know, come and go in the news, you’re feeling them worrying about your [01:39:40] family. And, you know.

Mehy Lo Presti: It becomes like, okay, every two years you’re going to have one [01:39:45] of those. It’s like a bad flu, right? Every three years you’re going to get bad. This one [01:39:50] was like never ending. Yeah. You know, you think like, okay, it’s going to be another hit. And then it’s just [01:39:55] like, you know, and still, you know, till now it’s still the same. And it’s terrible that you get numb. And we all the humanity, [01:40:00] the whole world got numb. And we are now used to see these things happening. And [01:40:05] we’re not even, you know, we’re so used to now see that kids and people [01:40:10] dead bodies and that it’s just, it’s just crazy, you know, it’s [01:40:15] like, uh, what the world has become.

Payman Langroudi: How do you, how do you square the circle? [01:40:20] I mean, like for me, I, I tend to like, take the other [01:40:25] side’s point of view into account to give [01:40:30] some sort of sanity to it.

Mehy Lo Presti: Well, yeah, of course it’s difficult.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so difficult. Like, [01:40:35] how do you manage it?

Mehy Lo Presti: I mean, I mean, I understand why people think in a way [01:40:40] and it’s not their fault. Yeah. You know, like when people they’ve been brainwashed [01:40:45] and thinking that is the right thing. Well, when they see it and [01:40:50] happens, they’re not going to feel bad about it, you know? So I actually think also people [01:40:55] are victims. The people that think this is right are victims of, of, of the [01:41:00] manipulation that they’ve been going through all their lives. And it’s sad to see. And now everything reveals. And not only [01:41:05] that in this, in this conflict, in this war and genocide, [01:41:10] but also in anything that happens around the world, people seeing the extreme [01:41:15] right or extreme left or anything, any extremes and radical radicalism that [01:41:20] that is happening is normal, you know, and this is where you get scared. It’s like, whoa, this [01:41:25] is not probably the word I want to leave for my daughters to, to live. So yeah, [01:41:30] it’s an understanding kind [01:41:35] of, but you know, you also lose respect for a [01:41:40] lot of people and a lot of things around you. And that happened to me over the past two years, [01:41:45] people that I admire. And I thought they were very, very intelligent people. [01:41:50] And when you see how they think about certain things, they’re like, whoa, okay, [01:41:55] that’s. I thought, you know, you were more free minded. [01:42:00]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, it’s polarising though. Yeah. Polarises you into one direction or [01:42:05] another. It’s one of those one of the biggest.

Mehy Lo Presti: There is nothing, nothing polarising about being [01:42:10] in favour of humanity and genocide. You know, you can have political views. Okay, I understand [01:42:15] you have your reasons. Financial reasons? Historical reasons, I don’t know, but there are things [01:42:20] that there is no side or the other. It’s just, you know, you actually.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:42:25] see it a lot with Iranians here because, uh, we feel like our country got destroyed [01:42:30] by religion. Yeah. And, and you see it with Iranians who, who, who see, [01:42:35] see what’s going on in, in Gaza. Yeah. And almost see it as like a necessary thing that needs [01:42:40] to happen for us, for us to get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And lose humanity in [01:42:45] that moment. Like lose humanity in that moment. Yeah. You know that [01:42:50] the the the four year old child has got nothing to do with this [01:42:55] guy’s issue with Iran in 1978. Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: Exactly. And this [01:43:00] is the problem that the people are using religion and they’re using.

Payman Langroudi: Believe in [01:43:05] God.

Mehy Lo Presti: Oh, I think I believe in God, not in [01:43:10] the not in how the religion says [01:43:15] that God is. You know, I probably don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Did you pray?

Mehy Lo Presti: No.

Payman Langroudi: So what do [01:43:20] you believe then?

Mehy Lo Presti: I think there is. I believe in energies. I believe that, you know, [01:43:25] there’s, you know, things that just don’t happen because they’re happening. I believe that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s more to [01:43:30] it than we can see and feel to it.

Mehy Lo Presti: And there’s more more things in between us than what we can [01:43:35] see. Yeah. I don’t think there is anyone judging if we’re gonna go to hell or [01:43:40] no, I don’t think there’s anyone.

Payman Langroudi: No one watching.

Mehy Lo Presti: I don’t think anyone is watching karma. Karma. [01:43:45] Kind of like I could I could feel I could feel that, you know, uh, good [01:43:50] things would happen to you.

Payman Langroudi: If you do good things.

Mehy Lo Presti: If you good things, you, you might attract [01:43:55] good things.

Payman Langroudi: It’s practically obviously right. Practically. Obviously you’ve been good to [01:44:00] me. I’m going to be good to you. Yeah. So that’s a practical thing. But do you believe there’s more to it than [01:44:05] that, even? Like.

Mehy Lo Presti: I think so. I think I think, you know, if you expect that if I’m good to you [01:44:10] expecting that you’re going to be good to me. I don’t think that’s the that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The way it just it is, it is.

Mehy Lo Presti: It’s going [01:44:15] to be like this. You know.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve had some excellent interactions. My future interactions with you will be excellent [01:44:20] whatever happens because we’ve had amazing like I’ve always liked you. We’ve hugged each other. We’ve we’ve we’ve [01:44:25] you’ve been nice to me. I’ve been nice. Karma. Karma is practical. Yeah, I think so.

Mehy Lo Presti: But it’s [01:44:30] not, it’s not, it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nothing more than that. Nothing more than that. Like, you know, a lot of people who believe in karma actually [01:44:35] believe something comes around that goes around, you know, like.

Mehy Lo Presti: I think I think there [01:44:40] is something like that, you know, I think, I think, you know, when, when I wake up and I [01:44:45] see like the sun and the flowers and the beautiful [01:44:50] things. You think that this is happening for.

Payman Langroudi: An overall connection?

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. [01:44:55] And I believe in God in that way. I believe in God. And being on, on, on the beautiful things [01:45:00] that happen. But I don’t believe on someone that’s judging me and observing and thinking, if you do this, you’re going to go [01:45:05] to hell. If you do this, you’re going to go to another place. I think [01:45:10] you know.

Payman Langroudi: So you wouldn’t even characterise yourself. You wouldn’t identify as any sort of religion. [01:45:15]

Mehy Lo Presti: I’ve been raised in a in a my mom was [01:45:20] raised Christian, my dad Muslim. Yeah. So I think I’ve been [01:45:25] raised probably with that culture, Muslim culture, and I understand [01:45:30] the Christian culture. I’ve been. Also, I was going to school and every morning was there [01:45:35] was a pray and.

Payman Langroudi: Actually in Spain.

Mehy Lo Presti: In Spain. So I understand [01:45:40] everything and I’m. And I’m a very lucky position to actually be able [01:45:45] to learn from both sides. Uh, my wife is Italian, so, you [01:45:50] know, understanding her family and their values, which are all the same, you know, and [01:45:55] this is the problem that religion should unify. And the problem was that I don’t believe on [01:46:00] the people that are managing religions nowadays. Right? And how things are [01:46:05] brought.

Payman Langroudi: This is not only nowadays, is it? It’s been through through the ages.

Mehy Lo Presti: Exactly. So that’s why I don’t [01:46:10] think.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t like the organised. Sort of. Yeah.

Mehy Lo Presti: I don’t, I don’t think I don’t believe in [01:46:15] these things, but you know, I respect everything and it’s good to have values. And I like when [01:46:20] religion gives you principles you can work with. And some people, [01:46:25] they just need a guide somehow. I would say maybe they never had it [01:46:30] in their life. Yeah, this is a bit. Sometimes it gets dangerous when, when the, the interpretation [01:46:35] of those books that were written 2000 years ago can go [01:46:40] in a, in a, in a wrong way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I feel like a bit like, I don’t know, it’s a bit like saying, [01:46:45] um, is the army a good thing or not? In a way, yeah. [01:46:50] Like, let’s say I’ve got no sort of structure. Then [01:46:55] joining the army might give me structure, you know, give me discipline. It’ll [01:47:00] teach me right from wrong if you like, if you.

Mehy Lo Presti: Like those values for me is [01:47:05] a bit like, uh, I hate those values, you know? Yeah. You know, one thing is to get [01:47:10] to learn how to be disciplined, but you can learn to be disciplined without guns.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I [01:47:15] know, I know.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah. So so you know, I agree with you and same from the religion. There are beautiful things. [01:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: There are beautiful things, amazing things. You can use it. You can use it as a structure for whatever.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, exactly. Like, you [01:47:25] know, I, I know the Quran, I know the Bible and you know, and there [01:47:30] are things that you don’t agree, but there are beautiful things that you can take in terms of the [01:47:35] respect for other people, in terms of the generosity, in terms of like there for [01:47:40] a lot of us is common sense, but some people maybe need a bit of a reminder [01:47:45] of, of how, you know, be kind with others.

Payman Langroudi: But also I’ve recently, I [01:47:50] used to have a lot of problem with everything that you said. Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I used to have a problem [01:47:55] with it because of everything that you said. Yeah. But then recently I’ve started treating [01:48:00] all the religions more like a book. Like any book. Yeah, yeah, like there’s some Shakespeare [01:48:05] book that I’m sure it’s beautiful. Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. So I could [01:48:10] look at Christianity and say, yeah, that that message is a beautiful message. Exactly. I don’t have to even bother myself [01:48:15] with was Christ the Son of God or is there a God? Yeah, yeah, I agree. [01:48:20] I can just go to the teaching, you know, just and itself is a beautiful thing.

Mehy Lo Presti: And you can [01:48:25] get inspired by Shakespeare. Like you’re not going to do everything that they did in the book, right? Or, but you can see [01:48:30] like, wow, this is great. And that actually is making me think. So that probably is a very nice [01:48:35] approach.

Payman Langroudi: We pretty much agree on that.

Mehy Lo Presti: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been really, really fun. I’ve really enjoyed it, man. [01:48:40] Thank you so much for doing this. And um, really good. Good luck with Dental.

Mehy Lo Presti: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:48:45] all the other stuff that you’re going to do going forward.

Mehy Lo Presti: Thank you very much. And, [01:48:50] uh, thank you so much for having me. Has been a great pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Always, always.

[VOICE]: This [01:48:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:49:00] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:49:05] hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:49:10] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:49:15] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:49:20] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:49:25]

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