Audio

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Ben Barta [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Ben is a long time [00:00:50] member of the dental support kind of group. The the people who [00:00:55] set up events started out with open rooms. Um, and, uh, [00:01:00] then now doing your own thing. Yeah. Good to see you, man.

Ben Barter: Good to see you, too. Payman. Thanks [00:01:05] for having me.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. Um, you’ve been in Dental. Since when?

Ben Barter: Since, [00:01:10] well, full time 2015, I would say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:01:15] what surprises you the most about the Dental industry or what surprised [00:01:20] you? What’s different about it to what you thought it would be?

Ben Barter: I think as a non [00:01:25] dentist and as someone who, to be honest, has, [00:01:30] you know, relative to the people that I spend time with in the industry, has very little knowledge [00:01:35] at all. Uh, everybody’s incredibly friendly, incredibly welcoming, very [00:01:40] respectful because, you know, you’d be forgiven for thinking like, this guy’s [00:01:45] not worth my time. He’s not, you know, he’s just organising an event, for example. But actually, you [00:01:50] know, people really give you the time of day and want to know about you. And yeah, I think that’s it’s. [00:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: A small world, right?

Ben Barter: It’s a great community. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a small world. Um, for [00:02:00] sure. Everybody seems to know everybody. Yeah. Um, which again is great, but [00:02:05] also I guess we work across quite a few different industries. The thing [00:02:10] I find about Dental is that everybody knows everybody, not just from a professional [00:02:15] point of view, but it’s there’s a lot of personal relationships in there.

Payman Langroudi: And what are the other industries you’ve worked [00:02:20] in?

Ben Barter: So we’ve worked well currently on this business. We work in veterinary [00:02:25] and petrol stations as well. Also done a bit of work in pharmacy [00:02:30] in data centres, which was not so successful. But yeah, [00:02:35] Dental.

Payman Langroudi: Kicked off all of those at the same time. Did you?

Ben Barter: Yeah, we did all of them at the same time. Yeah. [00:02:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you how do you go about it? Let’s say you want to do something in um petrol [00:02:45] stations. Do you find someone who’s already selling something to petrol stations and recruit that guy. [00:02:50] How does it work.

Ben Barter: So a lot of it is about building some really strong [00:02:55] initial connections that are influential within whatever industry it’s in. So if you’ve [00:03:00] got the, you know, the petrol station industry, for example, if [00:03:05] we can find someone who knows people very well, um, [00:03:10] and is well connected, then he can introduce, he [00:03:15] can introduce us to, you know, a range of different people.

Payman Langroudi: Literally, what do you do? Do [00:03:20] you go and ask everyone you know, do you know anyone in that industry or what do you do?

Ben Barter: We normally [00:03:25] normally use LinkedIn, find a find a couple of people. Yeah. Um, I guess it’s a bit different now because the [00:03:30] ones, the industries that we’re working in at the moment, we’ve had, we’ve got a grounding in them. We, we know [00:03:35] people, uh, through, you know, other experience, but if say, it was a brand new [00:03:40] one, um, we would look at who are the key players and [00:03:45] try and onboard them in a consultant level or engage them [00:03:50] with wanting to speak at an event, something like that to break [00:03:55] the ice. And then as we build on those relationships, hope and kind of expect [00:04:00] that they connect us with other people or teach us a bit about the industry. Um, and [00:04:05] then we, and then we go from there and it’s kind of a domino effect.

Payman Langroudi: Are you noticing that most industries [00:04:10] are the same? What are the nuances about the pharma industry or the vet industry [00:04:15] that you wouldn’t expect compared to the Dental industry? Or would you say everyone’s kind of similar? [00:04:20] Uh, no.

Ben Barter: No, there are big differences for sure. There are big differences. Like, [00:04:25] um, the pharmacy industry that we’re, we’re not in in a [00:04:30] large capacity at the moment, but, um, it’s incredibly political, [00:04:35] isn’t it? So yeah, there’s a lot of that going on and, um, it’s [00:04:40] not, it’s not the same as the Dental industry where everyone just comes in, they, they all get on [00:04:45] incredibly well. There are different like relationships within that. Um, it’s a bit more complicated. [00:04:50] It’s interesting, but there is like a large political angle to, um, [00:04:55] to all those relationships and what people are wanting to achieve. [00:05:00] There are lots of associations. They don’t necessarily just.

Payman Langroudi: Align.

Ben Barter: Always play [00:05:05] nicely together. Um, so that is very different. Um, [00:05:10] but then we.

Payman Langroudi: Should explain, we should explain to, to anyone who doesn’t know what the basic business [00:05:15] model in the dentistry arena anyway, is that you hook up [00:05:20] corporate dentists, people with lots of practices to suppliers. Yeah. [00:05:25] Weekend away, someplace nice. And then the corporates [00:05:30] get to come for free. And the suppliers pay for the sort of 15 minute, ten [00:05:35] minute speed dating that you set up. And then there’s an amazing [00:05:40] social sort of calendar around that sort of breakfast, lunch, dinner party kind [00:05:45] of thing. Yeah, that’s the basic formula. That’s brilliant. That’s a brilliant formula. It is two brilliant. [00:05:50] So so are you doing the same formula across all the different, um, you [00:05:55] know, segments like.

Ben Barter: We’re doing the same formula. Yeah. I think that’s the thing that we’ve, we’ve always found [00:06:00] works really well. And if it’s not broken, don’t fix it. And I think the, the [00:06:05] original structure remains the same as when, you know, I first [00:06:10] experienced it 11 years ago. And, you know, the founders [00:06:15] of Open Room, for example, they started it over 20 years ago. The the structure is, is [00:06:20] the same. It’s effective.

Payman Langroudi: Did they did did they copy it from somewhere or was that was that their original [00:06:25] idea?

Ben Barter: I think that, you know, I can’t I can’t quite remember, but I think [00:06:30] there was, um, I think they kind of took a [00:06:35] similar concept and put it into what is this [00:06:40] format of? Yeah, speed dating for businesses really.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I take my hat off [00:06:45] to you because events are extraordinarily difficult, really hard. I just did that Ministry [00:06:50] of Sound event. And it’s hard. It’s so hard. So many moving parts [00:06:55] and everything made for this one day, two days, and [00:07:00] like a wedding or something, isn’t it? Something’s going to go wrong and you have to sort [00:07:05] of think on your feet.

Ben Barter: It’s a lot of work for building up to one particular [00:07:10] moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: And I think like across a lot of different industries, you don’t really get [00:07:15] that. It’s like a building over time. Yeah. And you see the results. Whereas we are building [00:07:20] this over time. But then it’s the you see the results, they’re either good or they’re bad. Yeah. In, [00:07:25] in two days, which is yeah, it is quite different. It puts a lot of pressure on. [00:07:30] I’d say that we’re quite used to it now. We actually thrive on on that. [00:07:35] And getting to the execution stage is that’s the bit that we really enjoy. [00:07:40] We find it rewarding, you know, spending time with the people that we’ve been kind of putting [00:07:45] this together for is, is a great experience. [00:07:50] And, um, you know, if you’re doing that with nice people as well, that’s, that’s even better, which [00:07:55] we, which we always are. Um, but yeah, I think as, as, as you know, from [00:08:00] the ministry of sound event, it’s like there’s always something that goes [00:08:05] wrong, right? As much as it can look incredible. And I thought that like [00:08:10] that, all the photos that I was seeing from that just looked like the production levels [00:08:15] are absolutely insane. And I think, but, but [00:08:20] always as the organiser, I don’t know if you find this, but there’s always something that [00:08:25] hasn’t gone to plan.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it does go wrong. Yeah.

Ben Barter: But it’s whether the people notice that [00:08:30] yeah is the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s also like knowing who your customer is, right. In [00:08:35] a way. Because one of I know my ministry of sound event. I [00:08:40] mean, of course, enlightens biggest users were they were the VIPs in [00:08:45] the room, right? Yeah. Because, you know, that’s my company. But the. In [00:08:50] our event, the sponsors were the customers. Yeah, not really the [00:08:55] ticket holders, the sponsors because they put up so much of it. Yeah. And [00:09:00] you know that moving that’s a, that’s like a four layered thing, isn’t it? You’ve got yourself, [00:09:05] your company, your team, then you’ve got the delegates, then you’ve got the sponsors. [00:09:10] And in, in our situation at that point, I wanted to make sure sponsors really, [00:09:15] really got value out of it. And that’s very different. When you turn up to an [00:09:20] event, you don’t you don’t necessarily think it’s for the sponsors, right? Yeah. But it is. Yeah, [00:09:25] exactly.

Ben Barter: It’s got to be they’ve got they’ve got to be happy to, you know, whether people like it [00:09:30] or not. Yeah. That’s how it works. That’s why the event is there. The [00:09:35] sponsors have made that happen. We might have been the ones organising and facilitating, [00:09:40] but without the sponsors we can’t do anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So your own background, [00:09:45] how did you get into events?

Ben Barter: It was very, very random, to be honest. [00:09:50] Um, it was my first job out of university. Um, so I [00:09:55] guess background, my, you know, my mum was friends with, [00:10:00] uh, Fiona who started open rim. Okay. Um, and so [00:10:05] through that got a bit of work experience while I was at university. And I loved it to the [00:10:10] point where actually after my first year of uni, I thought, should I just go and work? Um, this [00:10:15] might be a better fit for me. Um, but I carried on through university. [00:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: And then did you study something completely unrelated?

Ben Barter: I studied economics, politics [00:10:25] and international relations, which. Yeah. [00:10:30] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Instead of the UN, you joined Dental forum. Ah.

Ben Barter: I can’t [00:10:35] say I learnt a huge amount, um, at university, to be honest. It was like [00:10:40] what I got out of it was um friends and growing up a bit [00:10:45] more, I think. But in terms of actual stuff that I learned throughout three years, I [00:10:50] don’t think I’ve ever put any of it into practice since since leaving. Yeah, it’s [00:10:55] it’s a piece of paper that I’ve got at the end of it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting that if you’d studied event management, [00:11:00] that’s nowhere near sort of a high level degree as economics, [00:11:05] but that might have given you like so much more. I mean, well or not or [00:11:10] not, you know, who knows, maybe event management degrees are terrible, but, you know, like [00:11:15] it’s looked down on that kind of degree. And yet that that’s the degree that might [00:11:20] have helped you loads in what you’re doing.

Ben Barter: Yeah. I mean, it’s such a good point. Like if, if [00:11:25] I had my time again, I’d probably do like business studies or something. [00:11:30] That’s a bit more practical.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Um, you know, or marketing or something like [00:11:35] that that I could put into my day.

Payman Langroudi: Media studies was a real cop out. But now you’re thinking [00:11:40] media. Like if you know media, it’s very useful. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So then, okay, you was your first job with the Open Rooms.

Ben Barter: First job [00:11:50] was with open Rooms. Yeah, and I was there for five years. Stayed there for five years.

Payman Langroudi: And what an execution. [00:11:55] What a brilliant execution those guys did. What did you learn? What were the positives that you learned about business management from? [00:12:00] From those two.

Ben Barter: Got endless, really. I think vast [00:12:05] majority of stuff that I know now, I would, I would say I learned learned from being there [00:12:10] in the certainly in the first five years, but I, I [00:12:15] was incredibly lucky because what I was the seventh employee, I think there. [00:12:20] So every day have a direct communication with the founders, [00:12:25] you know, being. They were also my managers. They taught me how to do [00:12:30] everything. So getting that exposure was, was great. And also it could be taken as far as [00:12:35] I wanted to as well. I’ve always had an interest in kind of running [00:12:40] my own business. At some point. I had had that since I was younger, so the [00:12:45] ability to be able to kind of explore that and see just from learning [00:12:50] and seeing what they’re, what they’re doing, um, ended up meaning that I got kind [00:12:55] of a really well-rounded education, if you like, from, but.

Payman Langroudi: What were.

Ben Barter: The, the [00:13:00] different parts of the business?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of weird because it was your first job, so you might take it for granted, [00:13:05] take the lessons for granted. Right. But you know, when like you say with dentists, they go work in six different [00:13:10] practices and then they learn good and bad from some of the people, [00:13:15] you know, the, the running the business.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say what was like the top lessons [00:13:20] you learned from them?

Ben Barter: Okay, so probably the number one. And it’s [00:13:25] still they would always say, if you’re going to fail, fail quickly. Um, [00:13:30] which I think is a great lesson and just help [00:13:35] my understanding of when is it going wrong. And then is [00:13:40] that is it possible to change when it’s going wrong? Yeah. Or is this just something that’s going [00:13:45] to keep on going the wrong direction? And I’m actually wasting my time and energy and distracting from [00:13:50] something that might be much better. So I’d say that’s probably one thing.

Payman Langroudi: It is [00:13:55] difficult though, isn’t it? Because sometimes sticking at it is the best move.

Ben Barter: And sometimes [00:14:00] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Hard to know what’s the right time to pivot.

Ben Barter: But I think I think if I can [00:14:05] think about every time where something was going in the wrong direction, I’ve [00:14:10] whether I’ve listened to it or not, I’ve always had a gut feeling that there’s been a moment where [00:14:15] it’s been like, this is not going in the right direction, and something should change. And [00:14:20] whenever I’ve listened to that is resolved, and that might be just a little pivot, [00:14:25] for example, or that might be just canning it all together, but not [00:14:30] listening to that is probably the times where actually the mistakes grow bigger.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:14:35] do you trust your gut? Yeah, because that’s a big kind of [00:14:40] like sometimes you go against your gut, don’t you? And then you realise later it was a mistake. But [00:14:45] but some people don’t trust their gut. I remember as a young man, I wasn’t, I was, I was trying to be so scientific. [00:14:50] I’d go, what’s this gut thing? I’d almost go against it on purpose. Do [00:14:55] you find what are you good at? Are you good at sizing people up or opportunities or what?

Ben Barter: I think [00:15:00] probably reading people, um, I would say is something [00:15:05] that I’ve to date done, done fairly well. Um, I [00:15:10] think looking at an opportunity and deciding whether it’s, it’s worthwhile also [00:15:15] like I like taking a risk, but I think the [00:15:20] kind of trust in my gut thing has allowed me to manage that a little bit. I think like, you [00:15:25] know, probably ten years ago, I’d have been happy to take any risk. Yeah, [00:15:30] going.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Even if it was just plain stupid. But but now [00:15:35] it’s more like calculated risks. And I think that comes from [00:15:40] trusting my gut.

Payman Langroudi: So in between Dental forum and [00:15:45] Dental assembly, there was Covid. Yeah. And you did your own [00:15:50] Start-Up?

Ben Barter: Yes. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Tell us about that.

Ben Barter: Well, I mean, that was a big [00:15:55] leap. And talk about trusting your gut. Yeah. Uh, [00:16:00] because it seemed like quite a crazy move at the time. Um, I mean, [00:16:05] not in the sense that it was Covid and it was not possible to put on events. So [00:16:10] timing worked in that.

Payman Langroudi: Because that was a pivot because events were.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Ben Barter: So [00:16:15] this, this happened in April 2020, but [00:16:20] I think I was ready to kind of do something different and get a different experience anyway. So [00:16:25] the timing was good on that front. But what it we started a business, uh, my business [00:16:30] partner who also worked at open room at the time, um, flinty, um, [00:16:35] and we started a business that was price comparison app for [00:16:40] beauty products. The crazy part is that I’m, I was not, [00:16:45] I didn’t know anything about beauty products and I didn’t know anything about technology. [00:16:50] So the two things like that is kind of, yeah, [00:16:55] some people might say stupid, but saw an opportunity thought actually [00:17:00] perfect timing. You know, we’ve got some time to really get our heads down. Nothing to distract us. [00:17:05]

Payman Langroudi: People were buying loads of stuff online. Suddenly, right.

Ben Barter: Online sales were going through the roof. And [00:17:10] and there had been an underlying trend anyway, before that with beauty products [00:17:15] that sales online were going up, they were becoming a larger percentage of. [00:17:20]

Payman Langroudi: And was it price comparison for the same product or for the same ingredients, or what? How did [00:17:25] it work?

Ben Barter: It’s the same product. So so our.

Payman Langroudi: The actual branded product was sold here for this much [00:17:30] and here for somewhere else.

Ben Barter: Exactly. So designed to be a bit like Skyscanner, but for beauty products. [00:17:35] And then we also put a social element in there [00:17:40] because beauty products on social media, massive thing. But [00:17:45] we wanted somewhere where it could be exchanged or maybe a friend level [00:17:50] rather than influencer to consumer. So the friend level being that [00:17:55] and you know, the app still going. I’m not involved in the day to day, but, [00:18:00] um, what you do is you put the contents of your washbag onto [00:18:05] a virtual shelf, all the products on there. And then the idea being that, [00:18:10] um, if you wanted to know what this person was, was using or [00:18:15] what perfume they were wearing or something like that, you’d be able to have a look on their shelf [00:18:20] and see what that product is.

Payman Langroudi: Quite interesting.

Ben Barter: Yeah. And it’s, [00:18:25] I think that that kind of nosiness amongst consumers was really [00:18:30] like, was really appealing and people and people got it. Um, when [00:18:35] we were initially scoping out the idea and then you add on the price comparison to that. So the idea [00:18:40] being that you’ve got the contents of your shelf and whenever one of the products is discounted, we’ll send [00:18:45] you a notification. And the average saving doing it by that method was 26% [00:18:50] is 26%. Um, maybe even increasing now because [00:18:55] there’s always a deal going somewhere. The issue is finding it.

Payman Langroudi: And what about the tech? [00:19:00] I mean, who did the tech?

Ben Barter: The tech. The tech was a steep, steep learning [00:19:05] curve for us. So we were, I think had it not been covered, [00:19:10] there might have been different things that we would have done. For example, like neither of us are technical [00:19:15] and we didn’t know anybody technical personally. So [00:19:20] if we were going to bring on a technical co-founder, it would have been a case of finding someone, interviewing them by Zoom. [00:19:25] And potentially at that stage, it looked like not meeting in person for six months, [00:19:30] which just felt wrong to us. So we decided to go down the agency route [00:19:35] and then we could get a fixed cost. We knew how much we needed to raise, and we found this company that [00:19:40] was that scoped everything out. We got, [00:19:45] I don’t know, 50 page document exactly what you’re going to get. And this is the fixed price. So it wasn’t [00:19:50] going to be like it’s taking longer and you need another ten K to do this or that. So [00:19:55] we went ahead with that, which was it served its purpose for what we needed. But [00:20:00] over the years, we quickly outgrew that, outgrew that solution. And we’re spending [00:20:05] a lot of money on development. We’ve now got, and [00:20:10] part of the reason why, you know, I transitioned away from the business was to [00:20:15] kind of change the, the makeup of the founding team to make it a bit better. [00:20:20] Um, so we’ve got a technical, a CTO [00:20:25] who used to be pretty senior in Google, um, has some [00:20:30] amazing experience and he’s now leading the product. And honestly, the changes that that has made [00:20:35] in the space of six months are remarkable. So glad that we’ve got that in place now. [00:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Are you only out of it for six months?

Ben Barter: No, no no, I’m out of it. I’ve been out of it since 2000, [00:20:45] 2024. So, um, when I came back to open room, [00:20:50] I then took myself away from skin and [00:20:55] now I I’m still involved. I still speak to my business partner who’s also [00:21:00] a good friend of mine. Um, but that’s very much on a, like, you know, let’s have [00:21:05] a chat about stuff and I’ll give you some advice. And I’ve got some shares in the business, but not involved [00:21:10] on a day to day level, nor will I be.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, and you guys go on to Dragons Den.

Ben Barter: We [00:21:15] did? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me that. How did you how did that come about? Did you actively seek to go [00:21:20] out on Dragon’s Den or.

Ben Barter: So yeah, when we were in our early stages, [00:21:25] we put in an application to go on Dragons Den and we were doing a fundraiser. So [00:21:30] we thought kind of naively, oh yeah, we’ll put in an application for that. Maybe that will turn around [00:21:35] really quickly and we’ll get some money in. Um, and we didn’t hear anything [00:21:40] back. We closed the round, got on with it, and then just randomly out of the blue, [00:21:45] I get a phone call. Um, I think, you know, over a year later saying [00:21:50] basically, uh, we like what you guys are doing. Do you want to [00:21:55] come on? Um, so yeah, obviously we said yes. We happen to [00:22:00] be doing another raise at the time as well. So we genuinely needed the money as well. We weren’t just going [00:22:05] on for a marketing from a marketing perspective, which I know a lot of businesses do, and I can [00:22:10] understand why. Yeah. But the dynamic was slightly different for us that [00:22:15] we were like, right, this is going to be great exposure, but it’s not going to come out for a year after filming probably [00:22:20] or almost. So we actually need to close and get some money as a result [00:22:25] of it. Um, which we did, fortunately. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What? You accepted [00:22:30] an offer.

Ben Barter: We accepted an offer. Yeah, yeah, we got, we got an offer that we were really happy with, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:22:35] dragon?

Ben Barter: Uh, Sarah Davies, who? And she’s brilliant. She really [00:22:40] does get involved in the business, the businesses that she invests in. So she [00:22:45] organises a retreat once a year, um, where she gets all the businesses that she’s invested in [00:22:50] together for a couple of days and exchange ideas. There’s always something [00:22:55] to learn from these other people, even if they’re doing something completely different. [00:23:00] There’s always someone who’s fundraising or having, you know, hitting a wall [00:23:05] with their marketing or whatever that may be. And also just her time and [00:23:10] expertise. So she’s a fantastic investor. Um, and she’s, she’s [00:23:15] no longer on the show as well, which I mean, from a selfish point of view is, is great because [00:23:20] I think it means that, well, maybe not anymore, but Flynt, he gets to [00:23:25] spend more time with her, which is great.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me, how long was it sort [00:23:30] of bootstrapped? How long before you raised the first dollar and all of that?

Ben Barter: Um, [00:23:35] so I mean, I’ll go back to talking about risks here because again, [00:23:40] this is something that this is a case of just trust your gut. I think that we, we came [00:23:45] up with the concept. We knew what we wanted to do. We went and spoke to the developer. [00:23:50] We signed a contract with that developer. And I think between us, we [00:23:55] had a bit of money that we could kind of kick start the the expenses that we needed to incur [00:24:00] in order to get the ball rolling. But we signed a contract for 50 [00:24:05] K, um, the developer. Yeah. [00:24:10] And we had not raised a penny. So then we were like, okay, right. We’ve [00:24:15] got to go out and raise some money. We’ve got to do it fairly quickly to, you know, to finance [00:24:20] that. So we, we did an initial round, um, which was [00:24:25] kind of made up of mostly kind of friends and family and connections through that. [00:24:30] Um, got to the point where we did like a soft launch of the app. [00:24:35] And then we did a further round, which was then going away from that. We’ve, we’ve never [00:24:40] done any VC funding, but we’ve, we’ve done what I think we’re on our fourth [00:24:45] round of fundraising now. Um, so again, it’s, it’s getting more into just [00:24:50] getting in touch with angel investors on LinkedIn.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve never done that before.

Ben Barter: Had you never done that before? No. [00:24:55] No. So that was, that was quite that was an interesting it was a really difficult [00:25:00] experience, actually.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Ben Barter: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Constant rejections.

Ben Barter: Constant [00:25:05] rejections. I’m fine. Fine with that because, you know, I’ve been working in sales [00:25:10] for open for five years.

Payman Langroudi: Like you used to.

Ben Barter: Get used to it. I think the difference [00:25:15] with fundraising is you’re selling yourself. You’re not selling a product or finding [00:25:20] a fit. It’s are we the right people [00:25:25] to take.

Payman Langroudi: The right job.

Ben Barter: To do this? Because I don’t think there was any ever any question [00:25:30] about whether the idea was good. Like all the data was suggesting, it’s the right [00:25:35] thing to do. I fully expect that if you look ten years down the line, this [00:25:40] will be quite a normal thing amongst beauty consumers. But [00:25:45] it was whether we’re the right fit to do it. And that was where it was difficult because we had and [00:25:50] I don’t blame people, but we had no relevant experience whatsoever. So you do get a lot [00:25:55] of rejection because it’s someone then that on the basis of like half an [00:26:00] hour phone call or Zoom meeting, they’re going to they’re like, okay, I’m going to take [00:26:05] a punt on these guys. And that’s what investing is at the best of times, but certainly with people [00:26:10] with no relevant experience, it’s even more so. So it was it was hard, but we managed to [00:26:15] do it.

Payman Langroudi: And and what would you like to say in the end if you had to distil it? What [00:26:20] do they want? They want a big market that you [00:26:25] might be able to get a bite out of. Is that right? And so then what? You have to come across [00:26:30] as all confident or what? What did you what did you what are the insights?

Ben Barter: It [00:26:35] really varied between, between different people that we [00:26:40] spoke to. So there was never because I think after every call we’d be looking at like, okay, [00:26:45] what’s the, what’s the trend here? What questions are we falling short on?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:26:50]

Ben Barter: Where do we need to improve? But there was never a consistent answer which made it really difficult. [00:26:55] Um, but I’d say the market people want to see, see [00:27:00] a great market for that product. They want to see product market [00:27:05] fit being the initial one. But then what’s the size of the opportunity. How big can can this [00:27:10] go. Total addressable.

Payman Langroudi: Market. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Especially at [00:27:15] such an early stage business. They’re like, right, you guys obviously want to reach for [00:27:20] the stars and try and get as far as you can. But if you were saying all of this, like, what happens [00:27:25] if you’re doing 20% of that, is this still a good business? And I think that [00:27:30] was a.

Payman Langroudi: Tough question to answer.

Ben Barter: Isn’t it? Yeah, it was a really tough question. And I think in the beginning [00:27:35] we were really confused by it. We’d never done this before. And we’re like, what are you talking about 20%? [00:27:40] Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, maybe we’re prepared questions on 75%, [00:27:45] maybe even 50. But going that low down. And I can completely understand why they [00:27:50] asked those questions. But that was a bit of a learning curve for us. And then [00:27:55] I think the other thing that they just wanted to see from us, have [00:28:00] we got the capabilities to put it together? So have we got the [00:28:05] the grit to go and keep to keep going? And I think that’s [00:28:10] how we raised most of it, to be honest. It was it was through putting ourselves across [00:28:15] like that when we got when we took it away from the. Like on paper, this [00:28:20] is a great.

Payman Langroudi: We wanted it bad enough.

Ben Barter: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [00:28:25]

Payman Langroudi: All right. And then so with Dental assembly, what’s the finance model [00:28:30] for you? Have you had to raise money for that?

Ben Barter: We did. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:28:35] we I guess it’s pretty different to, to skin, which we, we knew always with that [00:28:40] one that we were going to have to raise round after round. This was a [00:28:45] case of, I mean firstly we, we got a huge amount of experience between my business [00:28:50] partner Dominic and myself. We’ve got 16 years doing [00:28:55] this. So I think you’re having very different conversations with people. We were able [00:29:00] to forecast a lot more effectively what we needed. [00:29:05] Um, and we went out and we just raised that amount and it was a much more straightforward [00:29:10] process if, if I’m completely honest, but I think it’s the combination of all of that experience [00:29:15] before that made it so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, the first time was the first time [00:29:20] as well.

Ben Barter: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a real difference. It’s a real difference. And the second time [00:29:25] in a market, you really understand, I can imagine that you’re totally different [00:29:30] situation.

Ben Barter: A very different proposition. Yeah. I think when when we’re being [00:29:35] asked questions and we know we can say this is definitely we [00:29:40] can speak with Definites, which, which we would never in the beginning of at the beginning [00:29:45] of starting skin, we were never able to do that. It was all maybes.

Payman Langroudi: Now, in [00:29:50] this market that you’re in, which is essentially bringing DSOs [00:29:55] and suppliers together, suddenly there’s a massive surge of companies doing this. [00:30:00]

Ben Barter: Yeah, yeah, it’s crowded.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s suddenly become a crowded market. I mean, it wasn’t in your open [00:30:05] rooms days. You were the only ones in Dental anyway. Yeah. Um, [00:30:10] so how are you negotiating that? I mean, what are you saying? Is your USP over [00:30:15] the others.

Ben Barter: So I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be clear. We’ve got [00:30:20] a couple of events coming up.

Ben Barter: Yeah, yeah we do.

Payman Langroudi: In September and November and November. [00:30:25]

Ben Barter: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve decided to split it up into big, big companies and small companies. [00:30:30]

Ben Barter: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was the thinking behind that?

Ben Barter: So we’re looking [00:30:35] at our overall objective is to is to be focusing on quality, not quantity. [00:30:40] So and I think that where, where we want to differentiate is [00:30:45] having small groups of people and building a real community. Now, when we, [00:30:50] when I first got involved in this in 2015, that’s very [00:30:55] much what it was. It was small groups of people. Everybody would spend time with everybody across the [00:31:00] two days. And it it was, you know, a close knit group every every time, [00:31:05] I think. So we wanted to carry that into that mentality, into this one. [00:31:10] Yeah. And by splitting it up, it means that we can cater for a [00:31:15] large part of the the whole DSA market really in [00:31:20] the UK? Yeah. Between having one event that caters for groups that have [00:31:25] got ten plus practices, um, and everything around that event is focussed on groups [00:31:30] of that size. It’s very, you know, it’s very considered, it’s very targeted towards them.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:31:35] what sense? Well, I think the, the education program.

Ben Barter: The education, [00:31:40] the content, the suppliers. Um, it’s very different peer to peer networking. [00:31:45] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting you say that, but you know, someone’s got 15 practices very, [00:31:50] very different. Someone who’s got 400.

Ben Barter: Is very different.

Payman Langroudi: But go on, go on.

Ben Barter: It is. And [00:31:55] obviously there’s going to be that that difference. But you know, for someone [00:32:00] who’s got 15 practices being amongst groups that have [00:32:05] got 400.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the next.

Ben Barter: Great exposure, isn’t it? It’s um, [00:32:10] you know, it’s good peer to peer time as far as we’re concerned. [00:32:15]

Payman Langroudi: So smaller groups.

Ben Barter: The smaller groups.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else?

Ben Barter: Um what [00:32:20] smaller groups of people. And then we’ve got the second event which caters for smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Smaller. [00:32:25]

Ben Barter: 1 to 10 practices. And I think that probably is quite an underserved part of the market. If we look [00:32:30] at a DSO and the kind of event that we’re putting together. Certainly, I know, [00:32:35] I know this from our previous experiences. We focus on the biggest ones, and [00:32:40] then we kind of work down from there. And this allows [00:32:45] us to look at a part of the market that where there are people that might not necessarily [00:32:50] be going to these other events on the market. So it creates variety for everybody [00:32:55] in the room, not just suppliers, but also the other Dental groups that are going.

Payman Langroudi: And let’s walk [00:33:00] through the process that each of the practice groups puts down a list of sort [00:33:05] of, uh, suppliers they want to meet. Yes. And vice versa. The suppliers [00:33:10] put down the list of the practice groups they want to meet.

Ben Barter: They do.

Payman Langroudi: And you put that all together into [00:33:15] how many meetings.

Ben Barter: We put that together into. On average, everybody’s going to have between [00:33:20] 12 and 14 meetings across the 210 minute meetings. Uh, [00:33:25] 15 minutes.

Payman Langroudi: 15 minute meetings. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then socially, because [00:33:30] a lot of the business happens in the bar, right?

Ben Barter: Well, you’re right, you’re right. It’s really important. [00:33:35] And this is this is part of what we were looking at when we were mapping this out [00:33:40] and, um, thinking it’s really important part to get right. [00:33:45] But over the past few years, we hadn’t been getting it necessarily [00:33:50] spot on. So we wanted to look at how we can change that. And the example [00:33:55] that I would give is that we, when we were looking at the venue, the hotel [00:34:00] that we’re using, which is a beautiful hotel, beautiful by the beach.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:05]

Ben Barter: Five star, but it’s got a setup that we can [00:34:10] give people variety, but keep people together in the same place, which is very unique. [00:34:15] And there are very few hotels out there that cater for things [00:34:20] in that way. There are probably 4 or 5 that that I can think of that we know [00:34:25] of in Europe that meet those requirements and this being one of them that we [00:34:30] can we can gradually scale up in terms of what we’re doing on [00:34:35] the social side of things. So like a casual first night dinner by the beach, [00:34:40] um, with a, you know, a bar going late into the night afterwards [00:34:45] and then through to the second night dinner where we’re going to have a slightly more formal event, [00:34:50] um, you know, again with beautiful sea views. Um, we’re [00:34:55] going to do an awards ceremony. We’ll have a special guest there. We’ll have some entertainment. And [00:35:00] then through past the dinner location, we’ve hired out [00:35:05] a nightclub which will be private to all the Dental Assembly attendees. So trying [00:35:10] to facilitate.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t leave like they normally do.

Ben Barter: They don’t leave. Yeah, exactly. And they get [00:35:15] you know, they still get that experience. They can, you know, drink late on into the night, [00:35:20] but it’s going to be quality networking time at the, at the same, um, you [00:35:25] know, with everybody in the same place together. And as you said at the start, a lot of [00:35:30] the business does get done at the bar. Yeah. And it’s really, really important that we pay, [00:35:35] pay attention to.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I’ve, I’ve, I [00:35:40] didn’t expect that my Ministry of sound event, the number of people who didn’t go [00:35:45] to the actual lectures.

Ben Barter: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, we, we had sort [00:35:50] of in our head, okay, 200 people will be there and 50 people will be there, two rooms. And there [00:35:55] was a room in the middle, which was the breakout room, but continuously there was 100 people in the in [00:36:00] the breakout room all the time. But then, okay, it was fun. It was it was Ministry of Sound. [00:36:05] But but I hadn’t considered that that would be the case. And I thought about myself. And when [00:36:10] I was a dentist, that was the dentist. I was, you know, short attention span. [00:36:15] And for that reason, I kept the talks very, very short 20 minute talks in 17 minute [00:36:20] talks. Um, but, you know, understanding the dynamics of the group and [00:36:25] I was explaining to someone, if you and another dentist are at the bar [00:36:30] talking about the Seychelles, that’s work. Yeah, [00:36:35] that is work.

Ben Barter: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing about that that isn’t work. Yeah. [00:36:40] You may you may think talking about the Seychelles isn’t work, but two business [00:36:45] owners talking about switching off and where they would switch off in the same industry [00:36:50] is massive. And you know, that conversation is going in different directions isn’t just [00:36:55] about the, you know, surfboards of Seychelles. Yeah. Um, but, but [00:37:00] understanding that fact, yeah, it’s the same reason all our events, we have a social element, You know that our [00:37:05] composite hands on course, we have a social element for the night time [00:37:10] because that’s when people ask real questions. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. I think the better [00:37:15] you understand somebody, the the easier it is to work with them, the better it is in sales. [00:37:20] Yeah, yeah. You’re going to be so much better at understanding how best to communicate with them. How, [00:37:25] but you know, how you can provide the best service to them. [00:37:30] And I think so much of it is based on the personal element.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:37:35] considered the application into single practices? It’s difficult. I think [00:37:40] I thought about it a lot. It’s difficult. But but it’s interesting that [00:37:45] that you can have a single practice owner make an appointment to see you from then [00:37:50] till then, even if it’s five minutes. Yeah, but it’s difficult.

Ben Barter: I think the difficulty [00:37:55] is, and it comes back to, you know, when you were talking about sponsors and how [00:38:00] important they are to the event. It’s about delivering [00:38:05] the right value. I think we in our experience, [00:38:10] we’ve always felt that the format that we run, it works so much better abroad because it’s not just [00:38:15] about the speed meetings, it’s about the overall experience that we’re [00:38:20] giving to people and that being memorable. And then in [00:38:25] turn, when you talk about those relationships, you know, when you’re having a conversation by [00:38:30] the bar about the Seychelles, like if you’re doing that at Ministry [00:38:35] of Sound in your case, or you’re doing this in Portugal in ours, like then [00:38:40] that becomes much more memorable, I think. And it is about where you’re doing [00:38:45] it as well. But the challenge that comes with that, doing it for single practices is we [00:38:50] would need for the sponsors to make it attractive to get so many of them to come. Yeah, that [00:38:55] from our point of view, we just haven’t found a way that we could make that work yet. [00:39:00] Now, that’s not to say that we would never do that because in all honesty, like [00:39:05] if you had asked me five years ago, would we be doing one for the, you know, 3 to [00:39:10] 10 practices probably would have said no. So these things can develop.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying [00:39:15] is that there is a qualified lead, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. Like, [00:39:20] so even if it’s a single practice owner. Yeah. Comparing it to when we go to, uh, the [00:39:25] huge, you know, Dental showcases and all that. Yeah. We spent loads of money on these [00:39:30] stands. Yeah. Proper money. And then, I [00:39:35] mean, you know, we want to see nurses, hygienists and students. We do. It’s [00:39:40] part of the reason we’re there. But if there was one section of my stand dedicated [00:39:45] to serious qualified leads who before even coming, had expressed an interest. [00:39:50] Yeah. Then that would make that that show way, [00:39:55] way, way more attractive from the from the sponsor side. Yeah. From the, from the trade [00:40:00] side because sometimes you don’t know who you’re dealing with. And it’s actually [00:40:05] the reason why forum and all of those works so well was that once in a while at [00:40:10] Dental showcase, someone would turn up who had 34 practices and you’d go, oh, let’s [00:40:15] sit down, and you’d say, oh, the whole thing was kind of worth it because of this one guy, which is [00:40:20] why forum does work.

Ben Barter: Yeah, exactly. Well, there’s always been, always [00:40:25] been the approach that you just need one good conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: And that I [00:40:30] think that’s, that’s the basis of it really. When you’ve got [00:40:35] people there with multiple practices, one good conversation with them can [00:40:40] give you a return on investment. And it’s about ensuring that [00:40:45] in order for us to maintain the quality over quantity approach, [00:40:50] that one good conversation could lead to somebody saying, I had a great experience, [00:40:55] or we hope that everybody has a great experience, but I had a great experience [00:41:00] and there’s some business to come out of it as well that’s going to help us [00:41:05] grow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s any mileage in charging the groups a little something, [00:41:10] I guess. I suppose they’re spending time and time is the [00:41:15] most valuable asset, right?

Ben Barter: Yeah. I mean, their time is pretty valuable and it’s incredible. [00:41:20] It’s increasingly valuable given the number of events out there, [00:41:25] I think. Um, so I think for us to go and charge [00:41:30] the groups, I think they’d be like, right, okay, well, I’ve got so many other events that I could go to. [00:41:35] I actually think that it’s now about, it’s not just, I think it will turn that it’s not just [00:41:40] they get to come for free. And it’s in Portugal, for example. It’s [00:41:45] like it’s got to deliver some value. I think, I think it really does. And I think that [00:41:50] this is putting everybody under pressure to, to make every [00:41:55] every moment well spent and worthwhile.

Payman Langroudi: I had a really interesting moment [00:42:00] where I was spending time with the groups in, um, Spain, [00:42:05] with the groups while they were about to go into [00:42:10] their meetings with the suppliers and listening to what they [00:42:15] were saying to each other about, oh, God, we’ve got another meeting now. Who’s going to go? Will you go? [00:42:20] No. You go. And remembering the previous [00:42:25] time I’d gone, uh, we’d spent so much money, man. I think in total, we’d spent [00:42:30] 16, £17,000. Right. To be there and to [00:42:35] hear the other side of it that like, it just it was painful to listen to, to say. [00:42:40] Yeah. Because I know how much pressure we were under to make it count. You know, [00:42:45] as a supplier. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. It’s not ideal, is it? It’s not what you [00:42:50] want to hear before you arrange the meeting. But then [00:42:55] that’s the perfect opportunity to turn them around, isn’t it? Of course. Let them have it.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:43:00] course. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, business is all about solving these problems, [00:43:05] isn’t it?

Ben Barter: It is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think giving people something different in the in [00:43:10] the ones ones as well. I think I can understand it from a group point of view. If you’re getting [00:43:15] like, if I was just sitting through everybody whipping [00:43:20] out their laptop and giving me a 15 minute presentation on why my product [00:43:25] is so good that I would find that very draining. But if I had somebody come [00:43:30] in, say to me, right, okay, where are you struggling here? Like what? What are your biggest pain [00:43:35] points? Not related to my product necessarily, but you know, what have you guys, [00:43:40] what are you guys doing at the moment that you feel could be working better? How do you want to grow? And [00:43:45] does that fit into then what you’re offering? Yeah. Um, [00:43:50] and I think that’s a much better way of going about it.

Payman Langroudi: But I think one thing you guys have. Right. And [00:43:55] the format has right, which we really try to inject at Ministry of Sound, was that fun [00:44:00] is the number one priority. Fun is very important. Yeah. Yeah. Because like we said, [00:44:05] time is very important. If I’m spending my time getting on a plane, going all the way there. Yeah. [00:44:10] I must enjoy that time. It’s very, very, very important.

Ben Barter: Oh, yeah. If you’re coming [00:44:15] back and saying that was dry, then it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ben Barter: It’s not going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. But no, but you [00:44:20] go to a lot of Dental events. Yeah. Where fun isn’t built in or, you know, it’s [00:44:25] like you have to turn up as either James Bond or, um, Spider-Man.

Ben Barter: Which [00:44:30] ones that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like it’s either fancy dress or [00:44:35] gala gala or whatever. I know the reasons why it happens. Yeah.

Ben Barter: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:44:40] know what I mean? Like it’s difficult. It’s difficult to have fun or some people think fun shouldn’t be part of [00:44:45] it. You know, it’s almost like it’s in their head that work and fun can’t be in the same blurred [00:44:50] equation.

Ben Barter: Oh, [00:44:55] God, that’s such a shame. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, I think so. [00:45:00] Your Ministry of Sound event, it was two till two, right? Yeah. 2 [00:45:05] p.m. till 2 a.m..

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: When do you reckon was the peak in terms of the number of people that [00:45:10] were there.

Payman Langroudi: Three. Three in the afternoon. But it was funny. [00:45:15] It was a lunch, a coffee break at 330. Um, and, [00:45:20] uh, we had the guy live playing, uh, Adagio for [00:45:25] strings on a girl, a girl live playing Adagio [00:45:30] for strings on the, on the, on the keyboards and the DJ mixing it in lights [00:45:35] going. But you know, an event, um, energy [00:45:40] is a big issue. Yeah. How do you sort of get the energy going? And in a place like you, [00:45:45] you literally push your buttons and you can change the energy in a, in a moment, you know? So [00:45:50] it was super cool. It was super cool. People were really enjoying themselves.

Ben Barter: Yeah, I bet, and also, [00:45:55] it’s the kind of thing that people really do remember. It’s so different. Yeah, yeah. That anyone [00:46:00] who’s there, they had a good conversation. Yeah. They’re going to remember that. [00:46:05] And I think as you say, you can change the energy. And that’s, that’s really [00:46:10] cool to have that ability and to be able to change it up that quickly [00:46:15] as well throughout a day is very good going.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:46:20] know, I told you before this thing the day before, I said I would never do this again. [00:46:25] Yeah. And the day after I was like, when are we going to do it again? You, you must go [00:46:30] through that continuously, right? You’ve got, you’ve got that sort of, you know, events business. [00:46:35]

Ben Barter: Yeah. So the problem is we have to do it again. Yeah. No choice. Yeah. No. [00:46:40] I say that’s a problem. Actually I we I [00:46:45] don’t really have that thought anymore. I think it’s more seeing through. [00:46:50] Three things with [00:46:55] a with a very critical eye and trying [00:47:00] to think about how are we going to do this better? How are we going to improve this process? And I think particularly [00:47:05] it comes down to the month before. And every time we’re saying, okay, how can [00:47:10] we improve this process so that it’s more streamlined and we feel more [00:47:15] relaxed, and therefore the attendees beforehand are going to feel [00:47:20] more relaxed and excited? And it’s something that we’ve consistently worked on. It’s something that we [00:47:25] was one of the first things that we thought about when we were coming up with the idea of [00:47:30] assembly in the first place, is, how do we make that as smooth as possible? Because that month [00:47:35] is what has the direct impact on the overall experience for, for [00:47:40] the attendees?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. I think one thing we looked at as well was that to [00:47:45] try and get away from the fact it’s one day or two days by, you know, pumping [00:47:50] the social media before and after, you know, making it for [00:47:55] from, from the sponsors perspective. Yeah. Yeah. More, more than just the [00:48:00] live event as their exposure to the market. Um, you [00:48:05] should look at it too. Yeah. You’ll be amazed. The number of, uh, you know, companies who just [00:48:10] haven’t got proper social media output, you know, and [00:48:15] just would love to have some social media output. You know.

Ben Barter: It’s, it’s [00:48:20] so important now. And LinkedIn is I mean, our team lives [00:48:25] on LinkedIn. We’re constantly on there. And whenever we put [00:48:30] stuff out, we get something back from it as well, which is great. I mean, we do have a focus on [00:48:35] we don’t want to be spamming because then we might not get the same return on [00:48:40] it. But how.

Payman Langroudi: Many people are.

Ben Barter: You know, it’s so important. There are there are five of us. Yeah. [00:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and how many events have you done so far? None at all.

Ben Barter: Or so the Dental Assembly in [00:48:50] September will be our first official one. Now, something that we have done [00:48:55] already, and I think it brings it back to talking about sponsor value as well and not [00:49:00] making it just two days. There’s the social media side. There’s also for us, we do two days [00:49:05] in a foreign country. We don’t have any touch points throughout the year [00:49:10] in um, you know, in London, for example. So we wanted to again, [00:49:15] with the new business with Dental Assembly, we wanted people to have multiple touch [00:49:20] points. Um, so they get that extra value from, I guess [00:49:25] hopefully in a while being like a member of Dental assembly. But, um, we did an [00:49:30] event, uh, at the shard in March and we got all [00:49:35] of our early supporters from across Dental. Um, the [00:49:40] petrol station, which we refer to as energy because a bit nicer term. [00:49:45] Um, and the veterinary industry. We bought all of them together and had a [00:49:50] drinks party. Um, and it was, it was brilliant. It was firstly, [00:49:55] it’s the first time that any of us have seen like multiple different industries come together, which was really cool. [00:50:00] And there was actually, weirdly enough, there was some, a bit of crossover there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Um, [00:50:05] but also I think it was our first opportunity to say like, this is the standard that we want to set and [00:50:10] we, we want to be continually delivering, um, you know, [00:50:15] strong events in amazing venues and that will continue beyond as well. So we’ll do September, we’ll do [00:50:20] November, but we’ll have more drinks evenings throughout the year where if [00:50:25] people are around, they come along, they, you know, enjoy some free drinks in a great venue [00:50:30] and, and catch up with people that they know, maybe even meet new people as well. So [00:50:35] that’s what we’re trying to do with that.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good idea.

Ben Barter: Yeah. Um, yeah, September [00:50:40] will be the first official one. Um, and it’s yeah, it’s getting close now.

Payman Langroudi: Looking [00:50:45] forward to it, man. Well, I’m looking forward to it.

Ben Barter: We’re we’re just about to announce. Very exciting. [00:50:50] Yeah. We’re looking forward to having you as, as chair.

Payman Langroudi: Um which that’s going [00:50:55] to be fun. That’s gonna be fun. So tell me, um, we like to talk about mistakes [00:51:00] on this pod. What comes to mind when I ask you about mistakes? It comes from that. [00:51:05] I don’t know if you’ve seen Black box thinking, which is about plane crashes.

Ben Barter: I [00:51:10] haven’t actually. No.

Payman Langroudi: So the idea is this when a plane crashes, they [00:51:15] want to know what went wrong. So they look at the black box and then they [00:51:20] figure out what went wrong. And then the key [00:51:25] point is they do it without blame.

Ben Barter: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [00:51:30] then they share that information across the whole pilot community and [00:51:35] then they decide what are we going to do differently to stop something like that happening again? Yeah. [00:51:40] So that’s.

Ben Barter: Smart.

Payman Langroudi: That’s plane crashes. Yeah, but with medical mistakes, [00:51:45] it’s quite the opposite. It’s all about blame. Yeah. And so in [00:51:50] general, mistakes people don’t like to talk about. Um, but when they do talk [00:51:55] about it, the idea is that talk about mistakes that we’ve made so we can all learn from them. [00:52:00] Obviously, if you were a dentist, we’d be talking about some clinical error.

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:52:05] comes to mind if I say errors? What mistakes have you made that others can learn from, let’s say in business or whatever? [00:52:10] In life?

Ben Barter: Tons of them. Um. Well, I’ll. Yeah. [00:52:15] Um, I think. I [00:52:20] think probably a life one is, [00:52:25] is a better one start. And, and this might sound a bit strange coming [00:52:30] from, uh, you know, a founder of a business, it is, uh, [00:52:35] just about to go past its first full year of operating. But I think from [00:52:40] previous experience, I think letting. I don’t think it’s a good [00:52:45] idea for people to let work [00:52:50] take over their life. I think there’s more to it than that. And [00:52:55] I think in the you know, when we started skin, there was certainly [00:53:00] a period of 6 to 12 months where I let it dictate every single part of my life. [00:53:05] And obviously, you’ve got to be hugely invested [00:53:10] to start a business. Um, but [00:53:15] there is also more to it. And I think certainly as far as I’m concerned, [00:53:20] I do better if I’ve got a bit more balance, if [00:53:25] I’m putting every single thing and all my focus and all my time, all my energy [00:53:30] into, you know, work.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. What were you doing? Were [00:53:35] you spending weekends at the office and this sort of thing?

Ben Barter: I think it [00:53:40] was. Yeah. I mean, there was that, um, and [00:53:45] it wasn’t necessarily always about the number of hours as well. It was about the amount of time that it would occupy. [00:53:50]

Payman Langroudi: Brain hours.

Ben Barter: In my mind. Yeah. And the knock on effects [00:53:55] of that, but also the decisions that I would make.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel like it affected your health, your [00:54:00] mental health? What what was the sort of effect of it?

Ben Barter: I think it certainly [00:54:05] had me in a less positive frame of mind. Yeah. Certainly. Because especially [00:54:10] when things are things are quite tough and it’s always tough starting a business. [00:54:15]

Payman Langroudi: They always it’s very tough.

Ben Barter: So letting that have an impact [00:54:20] on, on everything outside rather than seeing like [00:54:25] having that balance so that outside.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the answer to that problem, you [00:54:30] could say, all right, spend less time at work and more time at home or something. But [00:54:35] I find the answer to that problem itself is experience of you’ve [00:54:40] seen so many problems come and go that then they stop having the effect [00:54:45] on you that you thought at the beginning. You just haven’t seen enough problems.

Ben Barter: That’s [00:54:50] that’s that’s fair. Yeah. And I think once you’ve seen.

Payman Langroudi: It come and go and, you know, [00:54:55] some toothpaste manufacturer didn’t do what they said they would do and it’s not coming on time. And [00:55:00] I remember the first time that happened, I felt my whole world had fallen apart like it had. Right. [00:55:05] Yeah. We had customers we couldn’t supply to you. And someone had stolen our money on the other side. Something [00:55:10] like this. I thought the whole world was turning upside down. And then once you’ve been 20 years [00:55:15] of these problems, you. I think it’s like a roll with the punches kind of move. [00:55:20]

Ben Barter: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, it’s a problem, but you kind of. You’re carrying on. [00:55:25] Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you made a mistake sort of managing [00:55:30] those moving parts, huh?

Ben Barter: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what would you [00:55:35] have done differently? Not gotten yourself so down about things.

Ben Barter: I would have had more variety in my life, [00:55:40] I think.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see, I see I became your singular focus.

Ben Barter: Yeah. Um, I think having such [00:55:45] a singular focus doesn’t work for me. And I know that it does. It does work for some people, but I think [00:55:50] I need a bit of variety sometimes. Like you can work on a problem for half [00:55:55] a day, take an hour break from it and come back and it’s [00:56:00] just like, okay, actually, this is how we should.

Payman Langroudi: Actually helps.

Ben Barter: You get past.

Payman Langroudi: The problem. Yeah.

Ben Barter: And by not [00:56:05] actually working on it, the problem is solved. Kind of sounds [00:56:10] contradictory.

Payman Langroudi: But it makes sense. It makes sense. It’s the, you know, the I said this, you know, [00:56:15] Archimedes theory of water displacement. You [00:56:20] do.

Ben Barter: You.

Payman Langroudi: Do. No, you do, you do, you do the guy, the king told him, how do I know this crown is gold? [00:56:25] And he was wearing. His wife told him, look, take a bath. Yeah. And then the crown fell [00:56:30] in the bath and water level raised. And then he ran through the streets Them shouting, Eureka! [00:56:35] Eureka! Because he figured out the density of the metal would move the wall [00:56:40] anyway, that. The point is, the wife told him, take a bath. Yeah, yeah, he. [00:56:45] You know, he relaxed for a second. Um, [00:56:50] and it’s important. It is important. And I hear what you’re saying about some people [00:56:55] thrive on the on the hyper focus. There are people like that, you know, definitely. Um, [00:57:00] I like it, but not not a lot. [00:57:05] I’d like another mistake.

Ben Barter: You want another mistake? Yeah. Do [00:57:10] you want do you want personal or professional? Here.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll leave [00:57:15] it up to you.

Ben Barter: I mean, I can get. I [00:57:20] know I can get quite specific, um.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever [00:57:25] you think.

Ben Barter: But. I [00:57:30] think. Yeah. [00:57:35] I mean, I’ll give you an example of, I don’t know, a, [00:57:40] a mistake that we’ve made at an event. Yeah, [00:57:45] yeah. Um, yeah, I can, I mean, there’s so many examples of that, like [00:57:50] opening.

Payman Langroudi: Up.

Ben Barter: A can of worms. It’s, it’s very difficult to [00:57:55] choose. But and also, I think this comes back to what we were talking about before about [00:58:00] trusting your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Barter: So, um, we, we [00:58:05] were, we were running an event in Dubai and before the official [00:58:10] event started on the morning of, there was going to be a site visit to this um [00:58:15] petrol station that was 15 minutes, 20 minutes drive away. Um [00:58:20] and we’d organised a big bus to take people and kind of the demand of [00:58:25] it would normally be kind of 20 or 30 people, but actually we’d had huge demand and I think we were expecting [00:58:30] somewhere between 80 and 100. So, um, you know, it was, [00:58:35] it had become a much bigger deal than it, that sort of thing normally would be. And this [00:58:40] is in amongst setting up for the official event as well. And um, we get [00:58:45] to the morning of and I’m like, okay, I’m just going to check in with the bus driver, um, [00:58:50] about an hour before and I give them a call and we have a chat and he’s like, and he’s [00:58:55] struggling to understand what I’m talking about in the beginning, where the booking came from and stuff. [00:59:00] And, and we seem to have worked it out, but just in my gut, I was like, I’m not sure that [00:59:05] that booking is there. I’m not sure that they’re, they’ve got this anyway. [00:59:10] I, I’m like, there’s so much to stress about. I’m just, I’m just gonna leave that. [00:59:15] He said he’s going to come.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Barter: And we get to kind of ten minutes before [00:59:20] and I’m like, I’m just going to call him again. Just check. And at that point he discloses [00:59:25] that actually there’s not been any booking there. And the earliest that they could send somebody [00:59:30] would be in an hour’s time. So I’m like, that [00:59:35] is an absolute nightmare we’ve suddenly got. And the lobby is now filling up [00:59:40] with all of these people expecting to get this bus 20 minute drive away. Um, and [00:59:45] so we’re like, well, shit, what do we do? Um, so we just start. Fortunately, [00:59:50] we’re kind of quite central Dubai. So we just start bundling people into taxis and [00:59:55] get getting them over there. And we managed to get them there. All right. But because of all that stress [01:00:00] going on and then the setup that we needed to do, I just went on my own to [01:00:05] this site visit and then I’m at a petrol station. I’m like this in the middle of nowhere now, [01:00:10] and how am I going to get people back? Like suddenly we need like loads [01:00:15] of taxis to show up and it’s just not going to happen. So I’m desperately, while we’re going [01:00:20] through this site visit, meant to be on the health and safety front as well, managing [01:00:25] 100 people on my own and also trying to sort out the the [01:00:30] bus and.

Payman Langroudi: I’m getting PTSD just hearing this story.

Ben Barter: It does actually turn up [01:00:35] after they have a short window to wait, but it’s yeah, I mean, that that was a case of the mistake [01:00:40] was I had this gut feeling that it wasn’t right and I should have doubled down on that. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: I think one thing with events is there’s a, there are things that have to go right. And [01:00:50] there’s a kind of in your head, a percentage chance that that thing’s going to go wrong. [01:00:55] And if that percentage is more than 20%, [01:01:00] you’ve got to have contingencies for that thing, isn’t it? [01:01:05] And contingency, I it’s the first time I’ve considered contingencies. But but they’re really [01:01:10] important. You know, if if the percentage chance of that thing going wrong is like 40% [01:01:15] contingencies are everything. Right? So, you know, you have to what if it. Yeah. [01:01:20]

Ben Barter: Yeah. If you haven’t asked that question enough, there’s gonna be a big problem. [01:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What would you say is your greatest resource? Like [01:01:30] if you want to, you know, sort of important but not [01:01:35] urgent kind of area where you want to learn about your work. What would be your [01:01:40] resource? Where do you look for business sort of help or I don’t know what you’re into. Are you into [01:01:45] AI or.

Ben Barter: Uh, yes. Yes, but [01:01:50] I think it can be really overused. So I think there is a [01:01:55] balance that needs to be achieved with it. And, um, [01:02:00] I’m certainly on the kind of less reliant end of the scale, but also [01:02:05] seen like some people who use it just all the time and it kind of becomes [01:02:10] almost a way of managing your life, your work, everything. Um, but [01:02:15] AI, I think in terms of learning is actually is, is fantastic. [01:02:20] Um, because I think the way that it can summarise things and how it can guide [01:02:25] in in certain directions, and I can read something [01:02:30] and just ask it a question, which often you’ve got [01:02:35] to go to another person to be able to do that. And obviously that is the best still [01:02:40] is the best way of doing it. But if I had 15 minutes to spare, [01:02:45] and I want to learn something about what’s going on in the dental industry this [01:02:50] week, to be able to use that as a resource to.

Payman Langroudi: But is that to understand? Is that where you go?

Ben Barter: That [01:02:55] would be where I would go. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there not like an Instagram page, a YouTube or [01:03:00] something, a book?

Ben Barter: There’s a book to be honest. Oh, favourite.

Payman Langroudi: Book? I [01:03:05] mean like business book. Um, novel. Favourite favourite. How to.

Ben Barter: Yeah, [01:03:10] I’m glad you asked me that question because I’ve read shockingly few books in my life. [01:03:15] Um, but I think it’s quite a niche one, but I [01:03:20] think maybe one of the most memorable Would [01:03:25] be that I was on holiday in Greece when I was, I think, just [01:03:30] left school. Just left university.

Payman Langroudi: On holidays when people tend to pick up books. It is. It is. [01:03:35]

Ben Barter: It’s the only time where I would ever pick up a book. Um, but yeah, I just left [01:03:40] university and was kind of thinking about what I wanted to get out of the [01:03:45] next stage of life. Yeah. Um, and, you know, starting a business, being a big [01:03:50] part of that. And I read, um, I read Duncan Bannatyne autobiography [01:03:55] and it just, it had me completely gripped for [01:04:00] 2 or 3 days. And I think it just kind [01:04:05] of maybe gave me a bit of realisation of like, yeah, I really want to start a business [01:04:10] that that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Ben Barter: Really want to want to do.

Payman Langroudi: You went on Dragon’s Den, right? Always [01:04:15] interesting. In Dragon’s Den. I always find it interesting how different dragons have different [01:04:20] appetites for different risks and different opportunities. And that [01:04:25] Ballantine man, he wants to put the minimum in and get maximum out. Very, [01:04:30] very greedy, but probably the source of his success as well.

Ben Barter: Smart. [01:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, it’s been a massive pleasure, man. I’m gonna [01:04:40] end it with the same question that I ask everyone at the end. It’s a fantasy dinner [01:04:45] party. Three guests, dead or alive.

Ben Barter: Oh, such [01:04:50] a difficult question. That one. Um, and I feel like it always it can [01:04:55] often change the answer to this as well. But I [01:05:00] would say first off, I’m, I’m a big football fan, um, [01:05:05] big Liverpool fan. And I would because.

Payman Langroudi: Your dad.

Ben Barter: Was to [01:05:10] know actually.

Payman Langroudi: How did you become Liverpool fan?

Ben Barter: Just really random. Um, [01:05:15] but I joined a new school when I was five years old I think. And [01:05:20] um everybody there was really into football, and I barely even knew it was a [01:05:25] sport. And the people that I was trying to make friends with were asking, who do you support? So I [01:05:30] just turned the question back on them. I said, who do you support? And he said, Liverpool. One guy. And [01:05:35] I said, oh, me too. Yeah. And that was that. And I think within [01:05:40] two years I had become absolutely obsessed and he wasn’t [01:05:45] into football at all. So it’s really weird. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So who’s your Liverpool hero.

Ben Barter: Uh [01:05:50] Jurgen Klopp. I think he well [01:05:55] he’s he’s managed the team. That’s uh yeah. Given [01:06:00] me a lot of joy. Um but I think just as it’s actually as a person, I [01:06:05] think like he’s a ridiculously seems like a ridiculously good [01:06:10] leader. He’s very charismatic man. I think he’d be great fun and [01:06:15] also really interesting and yeah, very good teeth. Yeah [01:06:20] yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And he’s he’s going to become Germany’s, uh, [01:06:25] manager.

Ben Barter: So I’m hearing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which yeah, my lucky, my two best friends are [01:06:30] Liverpool fans and they also adore Jurgen Klopp. How could you. I thought you [01:06:35] were going to say like I don’t know Bill Shankly or something. No no no dog [01:06:40] leash. Okay, cool. So who else?

Ben Barter: Um. I [01:06:45] definitely have my mum. My mum? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is she still with us? [01:06:50]

Ben Barter: No, she passed away last year, sadly. So definitely have her. [01:06:55] I think that’s enough, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:07:00] might as well include Gandhi or Einstein or God.

Ben Barter: Could be.

Payman Langroudi: Who could be.

Ben Barter: The plus [01:07:05] one.

Payman Langroudi: Mums come with Gandhi. Yeah.

Ben Barter: Yeah. [01:07:10] Not a bad shout. Um, I tell I tell you what. Actually this is probably [01:07:15] not one that would would like stand the test of time, but right now, um, [01:07:20] I’ve got a lot of time for Pedro Sanchez, the Spanish prime minister. [01:07:25] Yeah, yeah, I think he’s a great guy. I like the way he stands.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:07:30] I liked him, I liked him, I liked what he was doing about Gaza and all that. Um, but [01:07:35] then I spoke to two different Spanish people, and [01:07:40] both of them were really like, uh, I don’t know, they were saying he’s a bit too left wing or something, [01:07:45] something like that. I wasn’t really paying attention. But you’re right from the outside, without talking to [01:07:50] these two, I really liked it the way he would. Just like principle that which you don’t see much anymore. [01:07:55]

Ben Barter: Yeah. I think he’s not afraid to speak up for what he believes in. And I think it’s really like I can [01:08:00] understand why people wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ben Barter: Why it’s hard, I think. [01:08:05] But I’ve got a lot more time for people who do.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you grow up?

Ben Barter: Um, [01:08:10] I grew up in the countryside in Buckinghamshire. Oh, yeah. What, [01:08:15] like.

Payman Langroudi: The sort of the stockbroker belt bit. Or which bit [01:08:20] was it?

Ben Barter: I’m not familiar with that part. No. Um. Kind of between Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire. [01:08:25] Oxfordshire. That that sort of area. Okay. Um. Yeah. Really nice. Like [01:08:30] countryside. Spent an awful lot of time outside. Um and.

Payman Langroudi: Until [01:08:35] you were 18 you were out there.

Ben Barter: Until I was 18. Yeah. Yeah. Um [01:08:40] and then.

Payman Langroudi: Uni was where.

Ben Barter: Uni was Oxford Brookes. So I didn’t exactly go [01:08:45] far. Um which was great. Yeah. Because I was like an hour away from home. Perfect. But [01:08:50] I had my independence.

Payman Langroudi: In a way, I guess. Right. It’s going to be, it’s going to be a great uni [01:08:55] tail.

Ben Barter: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, I loved it there. And to be [01:09:00] honest, it’s probably somewhere that I would consider, like, ending up. Really? Yeah. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

Ben Barter: Great place to live. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And big enough as well. You know, I like Cambridge, but it’s small. [01:09:10] Yeah. You know, you can’t get everything there. Yeah. Oxford’s a proper city isn’t it?

Ben Barter: It is, it [01:09:15] is. Um. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Traffic jams.

Ben Barter: A lot of traffic jams. [01:09:20] Yeah. Yeah. I think they’re closed. They’re closing even more roads. It’s like you can barely drive in there [01:09:25] anymore.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man. Thank you so much for coming all the way.

Ben Barter: Well, thank you.

Payman Langroudi: For having me. Best of luck. [01:09:30] I know you’ve been in this industry a few years, but at the end of the day, it’s your first few [01:09:35] years in a business and you need all the luck you can get in that [01:09:40] point in time, right?

Ben Barter: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I look back at that time I called firefighting, firefighting. [01:09:45] It just feels like it was one fire after another. Yeah. So really, I like what you’re doing with it. Well [01:09:50] done man.

Ben Barter: Thank you, I appreciate that.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure [01:09:55] you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google [01:10:00] Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:10:05] would, um, give us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:10:10] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Bashar Al-turk [00:00:50] to the podcast. This is a long time coming, dude. It’s been what? When was the first time [00:00:55] you contacted me? A good year and a half. Two years ago.

Bashar Alturk: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You must have been a third year [00:01:00] dental student back then.

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: But I was just qualified as a dentist. Fingers crossed. [00:01:05] Um, got your graduation coming up. And, uh, also [00:01:10] an Olympic hopeful at the very highest level of, uh, trampolining. Just missed [00:01:15] out on the last Olympics because of an injury and still training.

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct. [00:01:20] Thank you very much for the invitation. And thank you so much for the warm introduction. [00:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. So you’re at Leeds finishing off five years. Just [00:01:30] give me that feeling.

Bashar Alturk: Mixed emotions. I think [00:01:35] just I think I don’t look at it as five years. I think it’s [00:01:40] been the 20 ish years of education. Yeah. It’s it’s it really [00:01:45] is going to be a win for me and my family massively. Um, really excited. [00:01:50] Looking forward to the future. Sad. You know, it’s going to be the last [00:01:55] time. And I do appreciate with all of us together as a group, as friends. [00:02:00] The last time you can go out with your friends on a random day and enjoy yourself. [00:02:05] But I think ready to move on. Really looking forward to it.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s [00:02:10] your feelings about Leeds, the town you grew up in? Manchester.

Bashar Alturk: That’s [00:02:15] correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. These are good student town it is. But what? You know, just give me [00:02:20] some Leeds reflections.

Bashar Alturk: Smaller than Manchester. Yeah, I’ve really liked [00:02:25] it. Very similar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: As a student city. Amazing. Whether it’s the nights [00:02:30] out or you’re only 25 minutes away from the countryside or you’re not too far away from the Peak District. [00:02:35] Um, I’ve loved it. Just middle sized city. [00:02:40] But the student life and the student connections been amazing. And [00:02:45] I’ll miss it.

Payman Langroudi: I thought I was in Cardiff and the size of city. I reckon Cardiff [00:02:50] and Leeds are similar. Um. It’s a, it’s a brilliant sized city. Yeah. Because I grew up [00:02:55] in London But the nice thing about those cities is they’re big enough that [00:03:00] if you want to see a live music performance, you can. Or you want [00:03:05] to go to watch an ice hockey game. There is. Yeah, but they’re small [00:03:10] enough that if you bump into someone for the first time, if you meet someone for the first time, you [00:03:15] know, at some point in the future, you’re going to bump into that person again. And that’s super interesting [00:03:20] for me because in London, it’s quite the opposite. You know, you will never see this person ever again. It puts a [00:03:25] different sort of slant on the relationship. Yeah. Does that resonate.

Bashar Alturk: Massively, [00:03:30] even to the point where you meeting people in Leeds and even, [00:03:35] let’s say for the second time, and you’ve seen the person before and you’re a bit like, yeah, I remember [00:03:40] you and was like, you know, coming to London today and it’s just a complete different world. [00:03:45] Yeah. But going back to Leeds, I quite like it. There’s, there’s more of a connection, [00:03:50] but also a pressure because I know, like you said, you will see this person again and this person will know this [00:03:55] person and who will also know this person.

Payman Langroudi: So it also means, you know, that people are nicer to each [00:04:00] other because of that. Yes. Yeah. Because if you think I’m never going to see this guy again and you’re [00:04:05] an idiot, you might, you know, whatever, not hold the door open for him, let’s say. Yeah. Yeah. But [00:04:10] whereas if everyone’s kind of connected, I remember in Cardiff, you’re standing in the queue in some shop trying to buy a bottle of [00:04:15] water, and everyone’s talking to each other in the queue. The Welsh are very special that way. [00:04:20] The Yorkshire people are too.

Bashar Alturk: I can imagine it’s very similar, I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: Did you find the difference between Yorkshire [00:04:25] people and Manchester people? They are different.

Bashar Alturk: I think very similar. The [00:04:30] accents different.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I know that.

Bashar Alturk: But I think personally [00:04:35] what I found up north are a lot more lovelier, if [00:04:40] that’s a word. Um. Chirpy. Um. Happy to smile in your face. Yeah. [00:04:45] Um, when I’ve walked past London today, everyone’s, you know, busy just like, like [00:04:50] a rat race, as they say quickly. So I’ve, I’ve quite enjoyed being up north. I think, [00:04:55] um, or living up north. Um, I think they’re very similar, um, kind, happy [00:05:00] to help, um, easygoing people I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I find that Manchester [00:05:05] it’s got, it’s so kind of got everything. Yeah. That people kind of hold themselves a little bit, [00:05:10] you know, they, they, you know, they might be dressed in designer gear and this and that and [00:05:15] having Wagyu steak or whatever. Manchester’s got everything. Yeah. You know, so that attitude, for [00:05:20] instance, I find Liverpool people much easier to talk to. Like cold, cold [00:05:25] approach. Cold talk to someone you’ve [00:05:30] never met before. Yeah, a Liverpool person. I just find it easy. It’s like water. Yeah. [00:05:35] They’re just so cool and funny and friendly.

Bashar Alturk: Similar to the Irish, I find [00:05:40] very lovely people. Yes. Now you mention Manchester, [00:05:45] so I know old Manchester. I think Manchester itself is changing rapidly. [00:05:50] Um, and I think now I’m going into, you know, mid 20s when I [00:05:55] see that that sort of side of people, the, the nice designer gear, the dresses, and they’re going out to [00:06:00] fancy places. Whereas the people that I’ve met from Manchester through growing up slightly different. [00:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which part of Manchester did you grow up?

Bashar Alturk: So I grew up in North Manchester, which people [00:06:10] will say sometimes is the darker side of Manchester. Yeah. Um in a place called Prestwich. Um but [00:06:15] I’ve loved it um very close to town, very close to everything, whether it’s a gym, [00:06:20] um travel or takeaway, [00:06:25] you’ve, you’ve got it all in fact, um I was saying gymnastics, I lived [00:06:30] four minutes away from, from the gym. So that was beautiful. It was and that’s what got me into the sport [00:06:35] at first. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about that. How old were you when you first did gymnastics? [00:06:40]

Bashar Alturk: I think I was around two years old.

Payman Langroudi: Two.

Bashar Alturk: Two years old. So I’ve known my original [00:06:45] coach since I was two years old.

Payman Langroudi: Bloody hell.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cool.

Bashar Alturk: Um, Santa [00:06:50] was close by. I think the original story was mum just wanted [00:06:55] us to get into as much sports, whether it was swimming, horse riding, um, [00:07:00] trampolining, whatever was close by and whatever we could do at the time when we’d put everything [00:07:05] into us.

Payman Langroudi: Pushy, pushy Arab mum.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Pushy Arab mum.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Bashar Alturk: Purely for the [00:07:10] love of us, like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of.

Bashar Alturk: Course, you know, mum put us first financially, everything. [00:07:15] She just wanted us to have as many experiences. There’s four of us, including me. Oh, [00:07:20] really? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which number are you?

Bashar Alturk: I’m the second. So. Oldest boy. Um, older [00:07:25] sister. Me younger sister, who’s just below, like a year, I think. [00:07:30] And then a younger brother who’s quite considerably younger, about 14 now. Um, so [00:07:35] it’s a, it’s a nice dynamic. I’ve really enjoyed that. So mum. Yeah. She took us to the sport. [00:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: What kind of a house is it. Would you class it as, as a Jordanian house.

Bashar Alturk: I’d [00:07:45] like to say Jordanian, but I think the bigger word is chaotic. It’s [00:07:50] the most chaotic house. And since living back, living [00:07:55] at uni and walking in back at home, I say, mum, dad, I can’t do this.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:08:00] stuff happening all the time.

Bashar Alturk: Stuff happening and little [00:08:05] arguments. We all love each other. But yeah, I’d say very Jordanian. Um, a very [00:08:10] Jordanian household, I like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then, okay, two, two years old jumping [00:08:15] around in the gym. All right. Yeah. How did that become Olympics.

Bashar Alturk: So [00:08:20] yeah, just I think we’d all gone together. Me and my two older older sister, me and [00:08:25] my two sisters. And I’d gone in and just sort of played around. Um, [00:08:30] I think the coach really took a liking to me at this point. Um, if you get to know me, I’ll try everything. [00:08:35] I’ll do anything jump off, um, a really high cliff as long as it’s safe to, to a [00:08:40] degree, I’ll do it. I’ll have to skydive. I’d love to do what? What? Whatever is cool. I’ll go [00:08:45] for it. And I remember going back when I was about four years of age, 4 or [00:08:50] 5, and they were better than me. So the first competition that we ever did actually jump into that, both [00:08:55] of my sisters beat me considerably. So it was very interesting, but I stuck at [00:09:00] it and I loved it. And there were periods that we’d stopped. And I remember [00:09:05] being around 5 or 6 at the time, and we had a garden in the back, trampoline in the garden. [00:09:10] We had a trampoline in the garden, and I landed on my head. So this was [00:09:15] the start of my injury prone career.

Bashar Alturk: And I remember being rushed off to hospital. Um, [00:09:20] I think I’d only bruised my neck or something, but it was really like my mum was like, no, you [00:09:25] really enjoy this. Focus on it. Let’s take you into training again. Um, and [00:09:30] from then it just, it just flourished. Um, every Friday after [00:09:35] school we’d go to training and um, the coach spotted me, um and [00:09:40] from that regional national and really accelerated quite [00:09:45] quick, um, with anything that I do. I put a lot of effort into it and [00:09:50] I adore trampoline just stuck with me. Whether I was in school, I wouldn’t be thinking about, [00:09:55] um, what we were being taught. I’ve got like old sketchbooks [00:10:00] and I’ve just been drawing like trampolines and me on a podium with a Chinese and a Russian [00:10:05] guy, and I just adored it. I just YouTube was just trampoline and I [00:10:10] think it was from applying myself inadvertently. I didn’t know what I was [00:10:15] doing, but I was so engulfed in the world of trampoline. I just started to get better and better. Um, [00:10:20] and I really loved it. And then I got into the squads and, and [00:10:25] that was it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you consider yourself super competitive? Right. Must be.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, massively, majorly [00:10:30] competitive.

Payman Langroudi: And an adrenaline junkie.

Bashar Alturk: Massively as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I [00:10:35] read a thing about adrenaline junkies here that, uh, like much like your first trampolining [00:10:40] was age two. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, in a way like your body shape [00:10:45] as it’s if you’re doing something as it’s forming that goes into your [00:10:50] sort of muscle memory, if you like. Yeah. And I’ve noticed, like, I don’t know, when [00:10:55] I was 27, someone told me, know when you ride a bike, the toe of your bike [00:11:00] needs to be on the pedal, not the, not the, the arch of your, your foot. Okay. So at 27, [00:11:05] I decided from now on, I’m going to just do that. I’m going to always have my toe on the front of [00:11:10] the thing. Yeah. And from 27 to 47, that’s how I rode. And it [00:11:15] never felt right. Yeah. No. Because from two till 27 I was doing it the other way. And [00:11:20] my muscles had moved, you know, in that direction. Yeah. So I know [00:11:25] physically jumping around at two, two years old, your body ends up forming. And [00:11:30] but I’m more interested in the mental side of it here. So you said to me before [00:11:35] you, you at school, you had short attention span and, and that sort of thing, ADHD [00:11:40] and naughty in class and all that. But [00:11:45] what would you say is the mental side of for you [00:11:50] of being an elite athlete?

Bashar Alturk: I [00:11:55] think it’s an adjunct. If anything, I think having [00:12:00] ADHD. Sport [00:12:05] gives me something. Um, focus, focus. It makes me focus not just in sport, [00:12:10] hyper fixated on the sport, but also outside. So we didn’t really know I had ADHD [00:12:15] until it was Covid time. Oh really? So it was in school and [00:12:20] I was very naughty in school.

Payman Langroudi: And you were in school during Covid?

Bashar Alturk: Um, well, I had to go back to school during Covid [00:12:25] because I found it so hard to stay at home.

Payman Langroudi: But you were a school kid at that point? [00:12:30]

Bashar Alturk: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It makes me feel very old, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: It’s such a [00:12:35] long time ago. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like day before yesterday. So [00:12:40] what were your A-levels at that point?

Bashar Alturk: Um GCSE first year of A-levels. Okay. [00:12:45] And it was a shock to the system. And it was it was really hard. And I’m not sure what [00:12:50] Covid was like for yourself, but.

Payman Langroudi: Scary.

Bashar Alturk: Scary, scary. Did you know you’ve [00:12:55] got I found you’ve got two sides of people, those who adored lockdown and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:13:00] yeah, I adored the time. I adored the time. But you know, business is going to go under. Yeah. [00:13:05] You know, at that point we were over extended as well. We had like 40 people.

Bashar Alturk: Oh, [00:13:10] wow.

Payman Langroudi: And we were moving. We were putting a lab in and all this, you know, financially with business. You said you love [00:13:15] business. Yeah. With business, as you know, you’ve had a couple of businesses at least your own. As [00:13:20] you know, there are times where you risk the whole business at the beginning. Yeah. You risk the whole business [00:13:25] on one move. Yeah. Because it’s the beginning. You’ve got nothing. Yeah. Now obviously [00:13:30] it’s a different thing. Like I know some people do do that. Elon Musk. Elon Musk famously [00:13:35] risked Tesla and SpaceX at the [00:13:40] same time. Yeah. Um, anyway, but yeah, so we were overextended. So in business, [00:13:45] sometimes you do get overextended financially. Yeah. And then suddenly overnight. And so [00:13:50] I think at the time we were bringing in, it was like £18,000 a day was coming in [00:13:55] at the time. Right. Suddenly overnight zero. Yeah. And we were overextended. Yeah. [00:14:00] So 0000000. And then it was like, wait a [00:14:05] minute. What’s going to happen? How am I going to pay the team? Yeah. And then they announced the furlough [00:14:10] scheme over here. But loads of countries. There was no there was no furlough scheme. Yeah. Even in America, [00:14:15] some loads of businesses went under in that fear of that was like [00:14:20] a real. Imagine in your head was a massive. But every business owner went through it.

Bashar Alturk: I [00:14:25] can imagine how difficult that was.

Payman Langroudi: And so. So did you go see a doctor, [00:14:30] a psychologist, someone like how did you get this diagnosis that I am ADHD just.

Bashar Alturk: It was always [00:14:35] pushed during school, but I don’t know if it’s similar to Middle Eastern parents. Mum was like, no, he’s fine. [00:14:40] We’re going to work on it. He’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about this last night. Yeah, my cousin’s [00:14:45] a psychiatrist. No, we were saying the Middle Eastern position on mental health is either crazy [00:14:50] or sane. Those are the only two positions.

Bashar Alturk: Exactly. [00:14:55] But I thought it was almost advantageous. Oh, yeah. Looking. [00:15:00] We’ve discussed it a lot in depth with my mum, but from primary school we’d [00:15:05] have an assessment, but it would always be stopped before we get the diagnosis. And my mum [00:15:10] didn’t believe in labelling. It’s a very, very dangerous territory because one [00:15:15] could argue a lot of help could have been given.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. Bless you.

Bashar Alturk: But [00:15:20] one could argue that a lot of help could be given at the right time. But for me, I found [00:15:25] that not labelling myself, I had to apply myself in the same way I did with [00:15:30] sport. This is just me. I knew that I found it difficult to focus. So [00:15:35] I finished training around 9:00 and during GCSE period and go home and just revise, [00:15:40] and I’d be sat down at a desk for 4 or 5 hours, not really doing [00:15:45] anything, and then time would go and I knew there was something. So [00:15:50] yeah, going back to it, mum was just like, no, no, don’t want to get him to Labour. I just [00:15:55] had to work really hard, hit Covid and that was it. There was no sport, there was no [00:16:00] socialising with friends, everything got cut short and it was very clear [00:16:05] and it wasn’t. Adhd for me isn’t just focusing um on on [00:16:10] tasks or is it just focusing in school? It’s the wider picture, it’s relationships, [00:16:15] friendships, liaising with people, emotions as well. [00:16:20] Um, and we found it really hard during Covid. I just not sure what to do at the time.

Bashar Alturk: Um, [00:16:25] so we discussed it with school and we was getting to the point where I was going to sit my [00:16:30] exams and part of me thought this will get me some extra time during my, you know, applying for dental school. I’ll [00:16:35] take the help. And yeah, we saw a psychiatrist [00:16:40] and educational psychiatrist, one through the school and that was liaised with, um, and [00:16:45] diagnosed me. I scored incredibly high on the test. I remember, um, and [00:16:50] the difference is now sometimes if [00:16:55] I’m really struggling and I found that school incredibly hard, sometimes I, you know, I’ll be on the phone [00:17:00] to my mum and I’ll say, yeah, it’s, I’m finding it really difficult to focus now and I can almost [00:17:05] subconsciously blame. It was I think if I’d done that very [00:17:10] early on during my education career, maybe I’d be at a different point of view. So reflecting on it, [00:17:15] I think delaying the diagnosis has worked in my favour. [00:17:20] I wouldn’t advise it. I’m not sure what your other alternative was, [00:17:25] but it was very useful for me because I didn’t have anything to blame. [00:17:30] I just had to work hard. Just.

Payman Langroudi: I think this is a mindset in itself, isn’t it? Like [00:17:35] another person, a losing mindset, would blame it for not getting to the Olympics [00:17:40] or something. Yeah, yeah. It’s a mindset in itself to take something negative and turn it into positive. [00:17:45] Do you think that’s kind of you anyway?

Bashar Alturk: Massively. And it’s not always been me. There’s definitely [00:17:50] been times where I’ve really struggled, but I think say with whatever, whether it was the [00:17:55] businesses that we discussed or Dental school or sport, I’ve always found it sink [00:18:00] or swim. Loads of times people have told me, don’t do this or don’t try this [00:18:05] or just focus. Don’t be a jack of all trades. You need to be a master of one, which I can appreciate. [00:18:10] But no, I do it and sink or swim and just keep [00:18:15] trying. And if I fail, there’s a lot of stuff I’ll learn from. And there’s been loads of stuff like, [00:18:20] for example, I’m sure we’ll get on to it. The injuries for a good few months. I [00:18:25] definitely wasn’t the positive person. I wasn’t saying thank God. [00:18:30] I was saying quite the opposite, in fact. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go through [00:18:35] it. Let’s go through it because it’s very interesting. Uh, as a pro sports guy and injury is a [00:18:40] setback. Yeah. Yeah. Um, at the same time, I’d imagine to be [00:18:45] at the very top of anything, you’re going to have to injure yourself because you’re pushing and pushing and pushing [00:18:50] to yourself to a limit. Yeah. And in trampoline, I don’t know how it works. You’re on a quadruple. [00:18:55] Whatever. Yeah. The first time in your life you’ve never done it before. You’re going to hit your head or hit [00:19:00] your shoulder or whatever it is. Yeah. So there’s that. But the, the parallel [00:19:05] that I’d like to look at is, okay, let’s say dentistry and trampoline. [00:19:10] Yeah. You’ve got an injury in, in, in trampoline. That [00:19:15] equivalent of that in dentistry might be failing an exam or getting sued by a patient [00:19:20] or whatever it is. Um, the thing that I’m really interested in is when, [00:19:25] when that’s happened to me, bad things in dentistry. On top of [00:19:30] the bad thing that’s happened. You’ve got the identity crisis. Yeah. I was [00:19:35] nowhere near the best Olympian dentist in the world. But your identity [00:19:40] is whatever it is. Like it might have been. I’m the best cosmetic dentist in this practice. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s my identity that I’ve given myself. Yeah. That I’m proud of. And I’m happy to walk around [00:19:50] with. Yeah. Then I get a complaint from a patient, and the complaint might be a complaint. Might be something [00:19:55] like, you tried to steal money from me. Let’s say something like that. It’s not something that really goes to your [00:20:00] ethics or to your intent rather than your skill even. Yeah. Or you didn’t have the skill to do. [00:20:05] Now, not only I’ve got an unhappy patient that I have to deal with, not [00:20:10] only I’ve got to deal with my career, just, you know, also my whole identity is the best cosmetic [00:20:15] dentist in this practice is now in question. So for you, you must you know, [00:20:20] in gymnastics, your identity is the best trampoline in Manchester. Yeah. That goes [00:20:25] then the best trampoline in the north, then the country, then the Europe. Then you’re [00:20:30] trying to say, I want to be the best champion in the world. Yeah. Tell me about that. Does it does it get to you as [00:20:35] when you injure yourself, when you get a set back? Massively identity wise, [00:20:40] you start questioning yourself massively.

Bashar Alturk: I think identity, [00:20:45] I sort of started, let’s say university and I was an athlete, wasn’t an athlete. I was a [00:20:50] student athlete. Yeah. Student being the first part of it, especially for the first few years of my degree. [00:20:55] And. I remember being three months into my first year, [00:21:00] and I’d completely ruptured all the ligaments in my knee and I was lost [00:21:05] for my whole first year of university, I found it really difficult because I wasn’t this trampoline [00:21:10] sports scholarship sort of athlete that I was at university. I [00:21:15] felt like nobody really very just.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:21:20] first time.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. The first that was the first major injury. When I was [00:21:25] younger, I’d snapped my tib fib, so I was in a wheelchair actually for about six months. Wow. [00:21:30] But whilst you’re young, I don’t think you really appreciate what’s [00:21:35] going on and I find it quite fun. I was in a cast and my friends were signing it, going around school in a wheelchair at [00:21:40] the time. It gave me a lot, a lot of appreciation for people who have to go through that every day. [00:21:45] Massively for my family as well during that period. Because just [00:21:50] on a side note, I guess when you’re injured, it’s not just you mentally as well. Who am I affecting [00:21:55] around me? But the physical side of who’s helping me? Who’s taking me to the bathroom? So [00:22:00] yeah, I got injured in first year and this was the first major injury. Whilst, you know, [00:22:05] I’ve just moved away from home, you know, new life, new school, university, [00:22:10] just just new routine. And it was cut short. I [00:22:15] didn’t know how to deal with myself and it was really hard. I [00:22:20] found it. The only rock I had at the time was my mum and. [00:22:25] And there’d be times at university that. Just not sure what to do with my day. My usual [00:22:30] day would be wake up at six, I’d go to the gym or do some sort of rehab like like prehab sort [00:22:35] of stuff. We’d have university nine till five, sometimes nine till two and straight to the gym. [00:22:40] I’ll drive. Last year my routine was. I’ll drive straight to Sheffield around. We train two till [00:22:45] four and I’d do some schoolwork in between. And I’ll go to the gym in the afternoon and I’ll drive back from Sheffield [00:22:50] around 10:00. Back to bed.

Payman Langroudi: Every day.

Bashar Alturk: Every day, not weekends. [00:22:55] So it was hard to have that ripped away from you. It [00:23:00] was I was not sure what breaking, devastating. I remember being told by the doctor [00:23:05] and I was really lucky at the time, a doctor called Doctor Barkat Ali, an amazing guy. [00:23:10] And I remember being told you’ve ruptured your knee and just [00:23:15] burst out into tears. And for us, we had an experience with another highly [00:23:20] talented athlete. He ruptured also his ligaments in his knee. I’m [00:23:25] not sure if his surgeries weren’t as advanced as they are at that time, but that was it for him and [00:23:30] he tried a lot, and that’s what I thought.

Payman Langroudi: So because he had no idea whether you’d get through it or not. [00:23:35] Right. Actually, when you’re in the moment might be career ending.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. And that’s what I [00:23:40] thought. And, and I almost swore the first time I ruptured my knee. I’m not touching a [00:23:45] trampoline again. That sort of it’s almost all or nothing. And it’s a lot with me in [00:23:50] a lot of stuff. I like to really apply myself. So when I can’t do it, I was like, we’re done. All [00:23:55] my hopes that we’re going are gone. Comes to the second time. Now we’re in [00:24:00] fourth year and I’ve got exams at this point and quite difficult exams. I’ve ruptured the right hand side. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: Same thing on the other side.

Bashar Alturk: On the other side.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Bashar Alturk: Devastating. [00:24:10] A couple of weeks before final exams and fourth year. And I just got to the point where [00:24:15] I felt this is going really well. Now we’re looking to the future. We’re thinking about the next [00:24:20] Olympic cycle. You know, I was doing multiple triples in the routine and the coaches were really [00:24:25] happy. And I think I finally got over the left hand side, just chanced. [00:24:30] I hit just come to the side, hit like a metal pot on a trampoline. So trampoline [00:24:35] is such a fast sport. We have forces six times our [00:24:40] body weight, so that’s the weight that goes through us. More G force and astronaut on takeoff. So any [00:24:45] slight error mistake it’s gone. Um so again having [00:24:50] to pick myself back up during exam season. And the honest answer was I didn’t. [00:24:55] It was just having a really good people, good group of people around me, good friends, [00:25:00] good family, um, which made made the difference. And in time, [00:25:05] you know, we’re a year on from the injury now I’m starting, you know, time heals everything, [00:25:10] whether it’s it’s injuries or life in general. And um, I’ve [00:25:15] now started to train again and really not wanting to push forward. Um, even with [00:25:20] dentistry, um, it happens the same. I think there is a big loss of identity similar [00:25:25] to what you were saying about being a cosmetic dentist. Um, I like to do the best [00:25:30] and that comes from, you know, when I see a patient, especially at university, I found [00:25:35] that I, I over promise sometimes and as a student under deliver and [00:25:40] I found that really hard again and making those mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you’re listening [00:25:45] you’re going into feet next, right?

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a big mistake of young dentists. [00:25:50] Yeah. That they think that being a dentist is [00:25:55] somewhere where you go, you get seen for 20 minutes or NHS even [00:26:00] less than that. And that you’re expected to give this authoritative answer on the [00:26:05] solution to that problem. Yeah. There and then. And it has to be right and everything. And [00:26:10] what young dentists end up doing is they overconfident? Yeah. Come [00:26:15] across as overconfident. Yeah, I can deal with this. I’m your dentist. I can handle it. They [00:26:20] can’t deal with it. Um, whereas if you think about it, dude, [00:26:25] you’ve been to, you know, top coaches or whatever. Yeah. If you ask your top coach a [00:26:30] question and he says, I don’t know, you kind of respect him a bit more. Yeah, yeah. [00:26:35] Because you know, he he knows what he doesn’t know is a big thing. [00:26:40] Yeah. So never worry about saying I don’t know. And I’m going to ask someone [00:26:45] that question. Yeah. I remember when I was your age, I had a mentor. And every time [00:26:50] I mention the mentor. So I’m going to ask my mentor. That would help. Yeah. With the patient. [00:26:55] Tell me about this. What’s the crux of trampoline? [00:27:00] So I’m guessing there’s some sort of you have to optimise [00:27:05] the bounce from that. What do you call the bit that bounces.

Bashar Alturk: The trampoline bed?

Payman Langroudi: The bed. You have [00:27:10] to you have to optimise that bounce. Yeah. And so so there’s that. Yeah. [00:27:15] Then then you have to. Up in the air. Was it like a visualisation [00:27:20] story? How do you know? Like what’s the difference between a great trampolinist and a good [00:27:25] trampolinist in that sense?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So so what? We’re judged off. Yeah. [00:27:30] We’re judged. So trampoline and judged off execution. How neat the elements are [00:27:35] similar to gymnastics and other sports. How difficult the elements are. So the more twists, [00:27:40] there’s more somersaults. Um, and also how high. Um, so there’s a [00:27:45] laser underneath the trampoline that measures how high you can go and the time spent in the air. And [00:27:50] the last one is just keeping it very central, but you.

Payman Langroudi: Have to be very stiff to get the maximum. And then you have to be very supple [00:27:55] to. It’s weird. It’s a really weird, weird.

Bashar Alturk: Athlete profile because [00:28:00] you have to be so fast, but also so powerful and strong, which sometimes [00:28:05] don’t go in. So some of the the Chinese and the Russians that I’ve competed against, they [00:28:10] are, you know, 55 kilos, 58 kilos, whereas I’m more [00:28:15] 82, 83. And so that’s been really hard itself in trampolining. [00:28:20] It’s it’s it’s what makes a good athlete. It’s, it’s the mentality. It’s the honest answer. It’s [00:28:25] the hard work. It’s being able to be injured or, you know, not [00:28:30] do a skill properly and get back up and do it again. It’s the fearlessness, you know, as [00:28:35] kids learning skills. We mentioned it before. We you have [00:28:40] to try skill. You build it up in increments and, and, and it’s what I take from trampolining into dentistry. [00:28:45] And in any life you build, you build a skill, you do one somersault. Okay, now you can [00:28:50] try one and a half, well, one and three quarters and now you can try two. But there’s [00:28:55] times in trampoline where you’ll just lose yourself and you don’t have the vision points. [00:29:00] So if I was to answer your question, build a perfect trampolinist someone who’s really strong, powerful, [00:29:05] very light, but also has a spatial awareness. And I think [00:29:10] that’s think sometimes something that’s gifted rather than worked for. [00:29:15] Um, and you find it funny. I’m actually on the other side [00:29:20] very not spatially aware at all. Really. Yeah. So a lot of the injuries, [00:29:25] actually one of them is I’ve just lost my self up there and you just spin, spin, [00:29:30] spin, spin until you hit the floor at the trampoline bed and you either hit the floor, the trampoline bed, you [00:29:35] don’t know where. Whereas some of my, um, some of the athletes I, um, I train with, they know [00:29:40] exactly where they are in the air and it’s just practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And then mentality [00:29:45] wise. So you said, okay, you get the Chinese 55 kilos and you 82 kilos. Are [00:29:50] there different mentalities that succeed like I think of it in business, right? This, [00:29:55] this, there’s some business people they want, they want the minimum input for the maximum [00:30:00] output. Yeah. And they see the world like that. Yeah. Those are the opportunities they [00:30:05] chase. Yeah. Otherwise you just sit on Dragons Den, right. You’ve got the four. The four of them. And each [00:30:10] of them goes for something and doesn’t go for something different. Are there different mentalities [00:30:15] that end up being this sort of really good at getting up and dusting yourself [00:30:20] off? Yeah. Are they?

Bashar Alturk: I think so. I mean, with anything, it’s it’s you’ve always [00:30:25] got the really talented person who somewhat works hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Guided. [00:30:30] And you have the person who’s has a small amount of talent. You have to have a little bit more talent [00:30:35] I reckon in whatever. And who works really hard. Yeah. There’s there’s those [00:30:40] who work differently. So I think I work very different to [00:30:45] um, the next gymnastics. I like to turn up [00:30:50] on time, but not early for training, which is odd. I like to the [00:30:55] session to be running. I’ll come in, I’ll warm up really quickly and then I’ll work hard. Whereas [00:31:00] if there’s I know some athletes that will roll around for an hour before they get onto [00:31:05] the trampoline, and they like to prepare themselves in that way.

Payman Langroudi: What about on competition [00:31:10] day? How do you keep nerves away? How do you make sure your performance is the best [00:31:15] it’s going to be? I mean, there’s lots of parallels to that, right? I’m going to have to stand up on the stage of [00:31:20] Ministry of Sound and deliver this event. Yeah, I’m going to have some butterflies in my [00:31:25] tummy at that point. Do you do you have strategies for that or is it that you’ve done it so many times? It [00:31:30] becomes a second nature now.

Bashar Alturk: It’s a mixture. And it’s also, I’d [00:31:35] say just the pure thrill, adrenaline and enjoyment excitement. Absolutely. [00:31:40] So quite, you know, on the contrary, [00:31:45] a small competition, which is, you know, a regional national level that, you know, not many spectators. [00:31:50] I’ll get more nervous of there than when we were at the [00:31:55] Asian Games with 32,000 people packed out arena watching cameras [00:32:00] everywhere. So in a normal competition day, you know, I listen to music. Visualise [00:32:05] mirror the routine. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. And it’s just a positive self-talk. [00:32:10] Um, on the competition floor, when there’s cameras around you, I thrive. [00:32:15] I love it and I’m almost exhibitionist. Yeah, massively. If [00:32:20] you know, if, if you speak to any of the friends at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Bashar Alturk: That I love [00:32:25] to be, I love to be in the limelight. I’ll enjoy it. And it’s the same with dentistry, like a little bit like [00:32:30] we’ve done BDS a or um, been president at dent SoC last year. Speaking of [00:32:35] stage, I don’t mind it. I do get very nervous though, and it’s just just giving it a [00:32:40] go. And I think my peers would find very odd [00:32:45] that yeah, I do get very nervous. So in a competition competition day, it’s just distraction. [00:32:50] I distract myself with the cameras, wave at them, kiss the badge, um, [00:32:55] and then just visualise a routine and listen to music.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say is the sort [00:33:00] of the biggest downside of being this elite athlete. There [00:33:05] must be the sacrifice, right?

Bashar Alturk: Massively, I [00:33:10] think. I, I don’t believe I had really any proper friendships until Covid [00:33:15] time because my life was trampolining and and we’ve [00:33:20] not mentioned I used to do swimming as well. So I used to have to, you know, from the year [00:33:25] five, if I remember 5 a.m. starts, I’d go swimming before school [00:33:30] at train, go to school, love school, come home, go [00:33:35] to training and then and that’s it. So I think it’s the sacrifice. Sacrifice with time. [00:33:40] You know, from the age of 12, I didn’t go on a family holiday. So [00:33:45] every year we’d go to Jordan and go back home. But because I’d be [00:33:50] major competitions coming up in September, I wouldn’t go away with my family. And that’s really [00:33:55] hard. I found for for a youngster, you know, at the age of 12, just [00:34:00] seeing everyone go away and me and my dad staying behind just just to train. And I think that’s [00:34:05] been the hardest bit about being injured because you expect hard work [00:34:10] to equal success. And it doesn’t it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:34:15] the interesting difference. I had a guy, uh, Mike grey I don’t know if you heard his pod. He’s like [00:34:20] number 42. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: And the bikes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Bicycle in the world. Yeah. And he was saying number 42 [00:34:25] in the world just doesn’t get you anywhere. Like financially, it’s like you basically pays for your flights. [00:34:30] Yeah. Um, but he was saying in dentistry, the more effort you put in, [00:34:35] the more you get out of it. Yeah. Whereas in, in bicycle he said somewhat, but it was more a mental [00:34:40] game. Okay. Yeah. Uh, he was also a musician. Yeah. And he was singing. Music has [00:34:45] nothing to do with the amount of effort. I mean, of course there’s effort, but, you know, it’s who you know and, and you know what [00:34:50] trends and you can put loads of effort in and not get out. Yeah. Like you’re saying. Yeah. [00:34:55] Um, I also remember Annie Seaborne. Do you know her?

Bashar Alturk: Yes. [00:35:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Um sports dentists as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So she was doing lacrosse for [00:35:05] Wales. Yeah. And then had an injury at the same time as finals, uh [00:35:10] dentistry finals. And she said to me, I didn’t give a damn if I didn’t become a dentist. [00:35:15] That injury that didn’t take me to the Olympics was much, much bigger for me than, you know, she was that obsessed [00:35:20] by it. But then that’s what happened. Yeah. And do you know Robbie Hughes? [00:35:25] No.

Bashar Alturk: No. Oh no. Oh no. Oh yes. Yes. Liverpool. [00:35:30] Yeah. Of course. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So he was a pro kickboxer.

Bashar Alturk: I didn’t know that for years. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Years and years and years. Wow. Um again travelled all over the world and he [00:35:40] was talking about the reason why he’s doing what he’s doing now, which is you can see [00:35:45] he’s very busy with avant garde dentistry and all that is he’s got this thing drilled [00:35:50] into him from childhood that you’ve got to live up to your potential, which is a very interesting [00:35:55] way of looking at something, you know, why would you work so hard at a business. Is it [00:36:00] the you know, is it is it the Rolex you’re trying to buy or whatever? You’ll soon find out once you’ve got that Rolex [00:36:05] is a total waste of time. Yeah. Like honestly, like even [00:36:10] I’ve got a friend who just bought himself Pagani. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And he said after about three weeks [00:36:15] he’s bought of of that.

Bashar Alturk: It wears off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. The stuff doesn’t do it. [00:36:20] Then you say okay, experiences, you know, then there’s this other piece that’s like [00:36:25] a little like almost like a missing part of you that you’re trying to fill.

Bashar Alturk: Which [00:36:30] is no way.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re trying to fill you. And whether you call that your [00:36:35] ambition, your living up to your potential. Like maybe when you were a kid, [00:36:40] someone said, you’ll never be. That’s that little bit sometimes. Yeah. Even someone like someone [00:36:45] who adores you, like your mother could have said something to you that can that can create this little void. [00:36:50] You know, you don’t do it on purpose. Sometimes. Often by mistake. Yeah. Um, so [00:36:55] okay. You’re now going to do dentistry and [00:37:00] you’re right at the beginning. Do you remember? Did you do you sort of think, oh, I’m not [00:37:05] very good at this yet? You’re not whatever you want to think. You’re not very. Yeah. And do you remember what it was [00:37:10] like to be not very good at trampolining? And you’re kind of mirroring. You’re thinking I will be the best in the world. [00:37:15] Are you? What? Do you want to be a dentist? Do you want to be Olympic level?

Bashar Alturk: Yes. Do you? Yeah, absolutely. [00:37:20] You know, I love the business side of dentistry and I’m very interested in that side. Yeah. [00:37:25] But I really love the clinical side. And I know my experience is university [00:37:30] level. I’m very appreciative. I can turn around and we have I have two tutors. We see four patients [00:37:35] a day. I know it’s going to be very different next year, but I absolutely [00:37:40] adore it. And I think it’s I think it’s just the same as sport. You like you said, the harder [00:37:45] you work, the better you get at it. There’s so many avenues you can take. Yeah, you can beat this person. You need [00:37:50] to be better. You’re always evolving. You’re always learning. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But I don’t want to be. I [00:37:55] don’t want to be the fly in your ointment or the saliva on your etched enamel or whatever. Yeah, but. [00:38:00]

Bashar Alturk: Neither.

Payman Langroudi: But but but and I understand [00:38:05] why, you know, you got to this stage in, in gymnastics by being this. [00:38:10] So now, you know, it comes naturally to do the same thing in dentistry. But the [00:38:15] fact you told me that you didn’t have any real friendships by being that obsessive [00:38:20] cat, do you not think maybe there’s, there’s an idea that you don’t need to be an Olympic dentist? You can be, [00:38:25] you know, county level dentist. Yeah. And by the way, you don’t need [00:38:30] to be number three in the world in dentistry, if you were number 37 in the [00:38:35] UK, you’re amazing. You’re on fire. Yeah, yeah. So do [00:38:40] you not think maybe there’s an evolutionary like if you look back and say, okay, I had all these injuries. No [00:38:45] friends. Yeah, okay. I got to this level and I loved it. Yeah, yeah. Do you think [00:38:50] maybe in dentistry don’t follow that same playbook.

Bashar Alturk: I think I’ve learned a lot. [00:38:55] I think so. Um, I think one take thing I take from it from the [00:39:00] sport and.

Payman Langroudi: Take.

Bashar Alturk: The best bits, take the best bits, but also just to work hard. But [00:39:05] I do see what you’re saying in, in the fact that there is more to [00:39:10] life than just working hard away. And [00:39:15] I think I’ve tried to implement it. Implement that. I’m a big believer that everything happens [00:39:20] for a reason. So for example, when I got injured, I, I was like, [00:39:25] well, what do I do now? And I think the, the core group of friends I have at uni now, and [00:39:30] I think knowing everyone on, you know, a big thing I pride myself is just knowing everyone [00:39:35] on the course. It’s a small course, just making a connection with everyone. I don’t think I would have been able [00:39:40] to do that if I was training full time. So answering the question, [00:39:45] I think. So I think there’s a lot of lessons I’ve learned at uni that I’d want to [00:39:50] take them back with me and being the best I can be, but also not [00:39:55] forgetting what life’s about. And I have two very, very [00:40:00] successful uncles. However, they’re not married and that’s a big [00:40:05] thing of mine. And so going on to what.

Payman Langroudi: Was a big thing of.

Bashar Alturk: Yours, as in, you can be as successful [00:40:10] as you want. I’m very aware you can have the nice Rolex, you can have the amazing Ferrari. But [00:40:15] for me, real success genuinely is having that nice [00:40:20] like a cool family. And I think you can work as hard as you want for [00:40:25] success. And I hope this doesn’t come across in the wrong way. And I really [00:40:30] believe one day I will be successful. But I think and.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s called ambition, [00:40:35] right?

Bashar Alturk: Thank you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but do you see the fact that they’re not married as failure. Yeah. [00:40:40] And that’s maybe that’s their choice or is it not their choice.

Bashar Alturk: I’m not sure. [00:40:45] Um again I think it is their choice. It is their choice I think. So I think, I think Yeah, [00:40:50] in a sense, but it’s just not the life I want to live. But then I’m not sure. Can [00:40:55] you work hard for that side of life? Can you can put yourself out [00:41:00] there. But I think true success, and it is very cliche is genuinely just having that family [00:41:05] and having, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, let’s imagine you let’s say you do run the same playbook, [00:41:10] okay, in dentistry as you ran in gymnastics, now you’ve got a wife and two kids. Yeah. [00:41:15] And you’re completely ignoring them. You’re not, you’re not with them at the weekends. Yeah. Because you’re obsessed. [00:41:20] Yeah. One weekend you’re off at Frank spear. And, you know, in America next weekend [00:41:25] you’ve come to Ministry of Sound next next weekend, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah. Enlightened. It’s very [00:41:30] at the beginning, very easy to to lose your family. I wasn’t with my [00:41:35] kids much at all. Yeah. In the first ten years of, of, of enlighten, um, [00:41:40] sometimes there’s like a, I’ll do this now so that later I can [00:41:45] take my kids to the moon. Sometimes there’s that move. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah. [00:41:50] But when you you said a couple of things that interest me. Number one, you said I think everything happens [00:41:55] for a reason why. I mean, it plays to that question. [00:42:00] If you take your lemons and turn them into lemonade.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But is it just a belief? [00:42:05] Is it like the best way to live your life? Why does everything happen for a reason? In the past you’ve noticed [00:42:10] it.

Bashar Alturk: I think I’ve noticed it in the past. It’s a belief that’s instilled [00:42:15] in us, in religion, but with anything religion. Personally, for myself, it’s [00:42:20] what do I take from and what do I learn from it? Um, and I’ve found [00:42:25] that, for example, when I injured my first knee, I was down [00:42:30] for a good amount of time. Or what I believe to be is down and I couldn’t [00:42:35] see a reason why. But the. And I hated it and I was angry at the world. [00:42:40] I was angry at everything.

Payman Langroudi: Why did this happen to me?

Bashar Alturk: Why does this happen to me? There’s [00:42:45] no one looking out for me, it’s it’s everything bad happens to me all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Did you think [00:42:50] there was a God looking out for you? Yes, [00:42:55] grandma or something. It’s like some people think that way. Um.

Bashar Alturk: I [00:43:00] believe you make your own luck. So I think it [00:43:05] looking out for me. Yes, but I don’t think I really [00:43:10] understood the what that meant. But [00:43:15] until only until recently, if you asked me the honest answer, I probably still don’t understand [00:43:20] it completely. But you know, if I wasn’t in, if I didn’t get injured, [00:43:25] I wouldn’t have. I don’t think I would have focussed as much into my dentistry at the time. I don’t wouldn’t have met the friends. I wouldn’t have [00:43:30] gone out with people.

Payman Langroudi: Give me this, give me this. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a bit it’s a bit deep. [00:43:35] There’s, there’s, you’ve, you said you had some Palestinian ancestry, your [00:43:40] parents even. Right. Yeah. Um, there’s a kid bomb dropped on his head today And [00:43:45] he’s three years. Three days old. Was there a God looking out for him for that kid? Like, what was God doing in that [00:43:50] moment? Was it was it something like showing you to, you know, that kid didn’t have [00:43:55] what you’ve got, so you go get it. Kind of. Was that the move? If [00:44:00] it is that.

Bashar Alturk: From my perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: I think it’s very hard. It’s very [00:44:05] hard. You know, a child dying or anything bad happening in someone’s life, the belief [00:44:10] is or belief that’s instilled in us that the good will come [00:44:15] from that in a point of view that because you’ve witnessed that, or [00:44:20] for that parent who’s, you know, who’s lost their child, there’ll be a place in heaven for them. There’s [00:44:25] always a reason to that happening from, from, [00:44:30] you know, I think whether you’re religious or not, it’s, it’s a journey and it’s a journey [00:44:35] of belief, man. That’s hard. And even as a, as a religious person, I can sit here and [00:44:40] say, if that happened to me.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. You could say to me, listen, don’t even be so presumptuous [00:44:45] to understand what God is thinking.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no no no no.

Payman Langroudi: It’s real. Right? If God is this, you know, completely [00:44:50] all powerful thing. But who am I to ask? I get that right. I get that. Um, [00:44:55] that that that’s certainly one thing. And you could say, oh, that child’s going straight to heaven type [00:45:00] stuff. Yeah, I get that. Um, what is your faith [00:45:05] being most tested? Was it during the NE period?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, I’d say so. [00:45:10] Definitely during the NE period to be honest. Anything [00:45:15] that’s, you know, been in my world severely bad. Um, yeah. [00:45:20] Especially during the period I was just didn’t understand why. [00:45:25] And I don’t think and at times I would blame life. [00:45:30] Sometimes God and I speak with my parents and I’d look deeper into [00:45:35] it. And it’s a journey in that sense. And I think [00:45:40] none of us can really understand why. And I say the why, even just the beauty [00:45:45] that I got to make friends. I don’t need to find a really deep, meaningful. But that was [00:45:50] also because I’ve recovered from it and there was good that came out from it, for [00:45:55] that child, for that mother or father who lost their child, maybe I’d be saying [00:46:00] something different. And that’s the honest answer, is that I don’t know this.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know as beautiful [00:46:05] in situations where you can’t prove it. Yeah, that’s and faith is like that. Yeah, yeah. [00:46:10] You don’t even need to say anything else other than you don’t know. Yeah. You know, it’s [00:46:15] your intent. That’s the most important thing. If your intent is pure, you’re [00:46:20] trying to be a good person. That’s the key point. Yeah. Let’s talk [00:46:25] about you. Tell me you have a phantom head in your student room. Go [00:46:30] on. That’s the first time I’ve heard that. Where who came up with that idea? Was that you? [00:46:35] Yeah. Does anyone else have a phantom head? Does anyone else I should ask the audience.

Bashar Alturk: Not [00:46:40] that I know of at the moment. Um, it’s such.

Payman Langroudi: A cool idea. And [00:46:45] a drill. An electric drill.

Bashar Alturk: Everything. So so Micromotor electric [00:46:50] handpiece. Um, multiple like models. Phantom head pieces. [00:46:55] Composite.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant idea man. Everything I’m gonna tell my daughter wants to be [00:47:00] a dentist now. Yeah. So I’m gonna tell her that’s what she has to do.

Bashar Alturk: I’ll show you where we got it from.

Payman Langroudi: That one. Well. [00:47:05]

Bashar Alturk: Actually, I know, on the contrary, a lot of it’s from China.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:47:10] yeah. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: And and it would be a, uh, a physical model from China. [00:47:15] So all Nissan model from China.

Payman Langroudi: So go on, go on, go on. What what point in the Dental course did you [00:47:20] get a phantom head into your room?

Bashar Alturk: It was midway through third year or start of third year. We started to [00:47:25] see patients. And again with the trampoline. I want to practice more. But school, you can’t [00:47:30] go practice more. And I remember I went on to the clinics. I grabbed myself a phantom head. I [00:47:35] tried to practice. I got into trouble. Obviously not supervised. Um, they [00:47:40] weren’t, they weren’t happy. But I got a slap on the wrist and just said, you can’t do that. [00:47:45] I think in school they’re big on making it an equal playing field. If I’m [00:47:50] going to get five hours of practice time, he also has to get five hours in heel. So I wanted to take matters [00:47:55] into my own hand. So I researched how much then Phantom Head Unit was originally, [00:48:00] and then they can go for thousands. So back to the drawing board. Um, [00:48:05] and I looked online at, you know, like warehouses, China and I thought, okay, [00:48:10] and I just found it all there. And I got myself into a loophole of buying [00:48:15] everything and everything from like at the time, sexual [00:48:20] matrices. And I didn’t know what sexual matrix was. So but having it there made me [00:48:25] learn. Um, so yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is this how you got into the loops business as well? Yeah. [00:48:30] So you started a loops company.

Bashar Alturk: That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Were you inspired by Bryant?

Bashar Alturk: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:48:35] just had them on the pod actually. No way. Yeah. So that’s coming out. So go on. So. So suddenly you’re [00:48:40] looking at China, you’re finding all this cheap dental stuff and you’re thinking I’m going to start a company. [00:48:45]

Bashar Alturk: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did you get with that?

Bashar Alturk: We did really well, [00:48:50] to be fair. At the time I think we sold.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Bashar Alturk: Two. I’d like to say it was me and [00:48:55] two other friends at the time. So, um, a boy that I lived with, um and another boy who did, [00:49:00] um and um he did law and good friends of mine and [00:49:05] I knew I was going to fourth year of dental school. I was the president of the society at the time. I [00:49:10] was doing the BDS, I was doing sport. I was like, I like the idea, but I’m not [00:49:15] going to be able to execute it alone. And I think with everything in sport, it’s it’s having a good team. And [00:49:20] I saw the way that some of the other companies had set up. So I know Brian was set [00:49:25] up by student by Connor Bryant at the time. Um, not the time by Connor Bryant who set up set it [00:49:30] up when he was a student at the time, and other companies also. Um. Well, [00:49:35] why can’t we set up some sort of research where some companies [00:49:40] buy their, um their loops from or um and where they’re [00:49:45] getting the materials. Um and yeah, I’ve searched them and found China.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:49:50] and did you, did you have this thing that was your, what was the positioning of your loop compared [00:49:55] to other loops?

Bashar Alturk: Student student price. We were.

Payman Langroudi: Price.

Bashar Alturk: Price [00:50:00] point. That was our USP. We sold five x refractive loops. And the idea is [00:50:05] hopefully to continue that on. It was called Dental Optics Co, and it was to provide [00:50:10] a price point where students could afford loops. Massive believer in loops. Again [00:50:15] it’s it’s with that sport just wanting the best of the best. Yeah. I think it’s impossible. [00:50:20]

Payman Langroudi: Did you do research. Sorry. What is the current cheapest loop on the market.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So I mean originally.

Payman Langroudi: You undercut that [00:50:25] guy.

Bashar Alturk: Um yeah. Massively.

Payman Langroudi: Um but then didn’t you think that the next guy will come and undercut [00:50:30] me. No it wasn’t just didn’t run through time.

Bashar Alturk: So hours were self adjustable, [00:50:35] so we weren’t making them through the loop through the lens. So there wasn’t a manufacturing process tailored to the [00:50:40] student. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so take me through your thinking. Were you at every point being super like [00:50:45] frugal to make sure that this is the cheapest way that anyone in their right mind would try and sell [00:50:50] it? Yeah. Like it’s kind of the prem way, you know, the boutique way. Yeah. Yeah. The [00:50:55] price he’s selling it at is difficult to sell less than that price. Yes. His his [00:51:00] product. Yeah. I mean, but lots of people have.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of people have. And [00:51:05] the important thing to understand is price can’t be the only thing factor. [00:51:10] Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: And I learned a lot. It was a lesson that was learned. And I think with loops, [00:51:15] that comes not just the sale of the loops, but the aftercare. And it’s something I learned after. [00:51:20] Yes, I might be selling loop for X amount. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How much are you selling them for?

Bashar Alturk: Um, £350 [00:51:25] at a time.

Payman Langroudi: How much are you buying them for?

Bashar Alturk: Um a hundred. Um [00:51:30] about a 100 and bulk sale in the end.

Payman Langroudi: Landed.

Bashar Alturk: Landed.

Payman Langroudi: 100. [00:51:35] Landed. Yeah. And you were saying for 350.

Bashar Alturk: And at the time. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not bad.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. And it was, there [00:51:40] was there was.

Payman Langroudi: Not so many of them to make any money.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. We, we, we didn’t at the time. We, [00:51:45] we sold loads.

Payman Langroudi: Who was your first customer people in your year.

Bashar Alturk: No, actually it was through [00:51:50] Shopify. Shopify online. We were selling to.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Bashar Alturk: Area. We were selling a website [00:51:55] and they were selling it to around. So it was um Bulgaria. Um, at [00:52:00] first.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and what about stuff like the person buying it from your website? Yeah. [00:52:05] Did you have your own brand name on it or did you.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So we [00:52:10] had our.

Payman Langroudi: Own Dental optics.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. These were the loops that I was using in clinics. So I believed in [00:52:15] them. So I, the whole original story happened was I wanted a pair of loops. I couldn’t afford a pair of loops [00:52:20] at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Alibaba.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, exactly. I tried to find a solution that was purely. [00:52:25] We bought the loops. At first. A lot of students buy. I thought, well, oh no, I want refractive loops. [00:52:30] But at the time I didn’t want to spend the money on refractive loops. So research for myself. I [00:52:35] used them for a year, loved them. And I thought, well, if I’m using them, why can’t everyone else use.

Payman Langroudi: The refractive [00:52:40] as well?

Bashar Alturk: They were refractive and that was the whole point. So I was using them and I loved them. So I thought, [00:52:45] let’s start. Yeah. And so we sold online. They would get the whole branding. [00:52:50] It was it was branded in a box with the logo name. They could get their name customised on it. [00:52:55] Um, it was on loops, the branding, and then it’d be a video and we had the returns process [00:53:00] and period. There was a video that would teach them how to adjust the loops if they had.

Payman Langroudi: You made.

Bashar Alturk: That [00:53:05] we made and if they needed any help, um, then they would contact us with the other students. [00:53:10] Not not so much. And then when we start to sell, we sold a few in our year. Um, [00:53:15] and it was through that that was hard. I mean, that was another lesson I looked, I learned [00:53:20] from the loops was not just the aftercare, but within dentistry, working [00:53:25] with friends and selling to friends.

Payman Langroudi: I still find that hard.

Bashar Alturk: Difficult and [00:53:30] even a lesson I’ve learned. Treatment. On on on a on on a family [00:53:35] friend or someone you know. It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard. Yeah. Definitely harder than a real patient.

Bashar Alturk: Massively. [00:53:40] And it’s throughout that.

Payman Langroudi: I guess just to give me an example, give [00:53:45] me an example. You sold one to someone in your year. Yeah. He wasn’t 100% happy. It kind of affected the [00:53:50] friendship kind of thing.

Bashar Alturk: No, to be honest with with the boy, at first it was perfect. Um, [00:53:55] and yeah, it was fine. It’s the unease of it, though. [00:54:00] Yeah. It’s it’s the most transactional. The pressure on me, I felt to [00:54:05] make sure they were good. I text him like every two weeks, like, how are you getting on [00:54:10] with him? Are you okay with them? How are they doing? And I think for first, like 150 [00:54:15] days, I was very nervous just. And it’s the same. I’ve [00:54:20] done loads of stuff. I used to sell cars, um, during university. Really? Yeah. So I’d [00:54:25] buy cars on line and I’d get them fixed up and I’d send them on for a profit. And [00:54:30] I remember I sold one of my friends an Audi A3 at the time, um, [00:54:35] at the time his father had passed away and he got a lump sum of money and he wants to buy a car. So [00:54:40] we sold him a car almost two years. I was nervous every time [00:54:45] like the MOT would go through because electronics are cars, a car, customers [00:54:50] are customers. The issues are going to arise. It’s making sure it doesn’t [00:54:55] affect the friendship and it’s definitely lessons learned. I try to avoid it. Um, the car [00:55:00] was perfect, thank God, but I didn’t know that I did did my best to make sure it was good, but anything [00:55:05] can break at any point.

Payman Langroudi: And it also it goes to your mindset around sort of complaints [00:55:10] if you like, like, for instance, in our business, you know, the toothpaste part of our [00:55:15] business, there’s no way you can sell thousands, hundreds of thousands of [00:55:20] tubes of toothpaste without someone. Or Let’s [00:55:25] say you sell 100,000 tubes and a hundred people complain. Yeah, [00:55:30] that’s 1 in 1000 people complaining. Yeah. It’s nothing. It’s irrelevant. Yeah. [00:55:35] But in our other business, the the Dental business that we’re selling to [00:55:40] dentists, one complaint ruins our day completely ruins everyone’s day. Enlightened. And [00:55:45] and people, we’ve changed whole processes because of one complaint all [00:55:50] the time for the last 25 years. It’s like it’s one of our superpowers that we keep on getting better and [00:55:55] better and better. But if if your mindset in the toothpaste business is [00:56:00] that one complaint is going to break your heart, you’re not going to you’re not going to do that business because you know, it’s [00:56:05] that’s the way it goes. Yeah. Yeah. And then some people will take that to another extreme, you [00:56:10] know, they’ll say total crap. Yeah. Total crap. Yeah. You know what it’s like online? [00:56:15] Shopify, right? You make a promise, a photo of something that you’re not even going to send them. [00:56:20] Don’t deliver it and they don’t care. Yeah. So yeah, it depends on what your mindset is. Um, [00:56:25] and it sounds like you really want to do well for people that you sell something to.

Bashar Alturk: Yes. [00:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: Indeed.

Bashar Alturk: And I found that being really hard.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about delegation? [00:56:35] Because sometimes that control freak nature [00:56:40] means you can’t delegate. Have you ever had to delegate? You must have been a. [00:56:45] Yeah, you were delegating all the time, right?

Bashar Alturk: Pdsa conference Dental the [00:56:50] Dental Society.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learned about delegation?

Bashar Alturk: Massive. Massive. Massive [00:56:55] amount. I’d say at first being dance president or even with PDSA, I was [00:57:00] very nice to people and that was hard. I think there’s a line that has to be [00:57:05] drawn where something has to be done. So for example, I think [00:57:10] dental societies, especially the way the way they’re run now, or even PDSA, they turn out the turnovers, [00:57:15] ridiculous of of money coming in from sponsors. It’s a [00:57:20] business more than a society. Um.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the one in Leeds was [00:57:25] the biggest Dental conference I’d ever been to. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I’ve been to [00:57:30] loads of Dental conferences, 25 years of Dental conferences. It was the biggest one I’ve ever been to. And the fact [00:57:35] the students pulled that off, it sort of gave me the warm and fuzzies, you [00:57:40] know? And by the way, a lot of it didn’t. But but but yeah, all events are like that. Yeah. [00:57:45] Yeah. Every, like every wedding, something goes wrong. Yeah. You know, in Arab weddings, they have this thing where they throw [00:57:50] the doves into the air.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. We. I got married in Beirut, and we threw the doves into the [00:57:55] air, and they just dropped on the ground. They didn’t fly.

Bashar Alturk: To [00:58:00] make you nervous.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, the wedding, I don’t care, but. But one [00:58:05] of the family was like, that’s a really bad omen. You have to do something now. No [00:58:10] way.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, but you laughed with it.

Payman Langroudi: I was cool, I was cool with it, I was cool. I’ve got that [00:58:15] sort of superstitious about doves flying. Yeah. But. Okay. Delegation.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. [00:58:20] Hard.

Payman Langroudi: You decided not to be such a nice guy, then?

Bashar Alturk: No, it took me.

Payman Langroudi: But doesn’t come naturally [00:58:25] to you. Not to be a nice guy.

Bashar Alturk: No. And it took me halfway through. I remember through presidency, and [00:58:30] there was things that was going wrong, and I sort of sat down and looked and I said, no, things have to go. [00:58:35] You have to be harsh sometimes. And I never understood it. I’ve worked I’ve worked for people before. [00:58:40] I’ve worked as a coach, and at times I’d watch stuff. And he’s quite harsh [00:58:45] on that person, or he’s let that person go and I’m really unsure why. So what did I learn? [00:58:50] I have to make everyone accountable. [00:58:55] If there’s a deadline set, no matter who that person is, the deadline is set. [00:59:00] The job has to be done by that point. Not to overtake everything as well, because there’ll [00:59:05] be times something’s not done.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll just do it myself.

Bashar Alturk: I’ll just do it myself. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So those two points are really [00:59:10] good points. Yeah. Your first one about having to be harsh. I get it if you’re a complete [00:59:15] doormat. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, TSA like running something like [00:59:20] PDSA. Whenever I talk to students who are thinking about doing this sort of thing, I tell them 100%, do [00:59:25] it for the learnings. Yeah. The fact that those people are volunteers, they’re not employees. [00:59:30] Yes. Yeah. In a way, you haven’t got authority to tell them to do something. Yeah. [00:59:35] And and if you piss them off, they’ll just stop doing that thing altogether. Just walk out.

Bashar Alturk: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Employees [00:59:40] don’t really walk out unless you really piss them off big time. Yeah. So it’s a different you know, it’s a [00:59:45] harder thing than running a business in a way, because everyone’s kind of. On the other hand, there’s the sort [00:59:50] of purpose led part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And purpose is gigantic. [00:59:55] Yeah. Like if we’re all in it together, I don’t know, you know. Dentinal tubules.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [01:00:00] all in it together, man. It’s a massive, like thing. It’s like you [01:00:05] can you can reduce things down, can’t you? You can say, what does enlightened even do? Man, it [01:00:10] makes rich people’s teeth whiter.

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You could you could be reductive about it. Or [01:00:15] you can go a different direction. You can say, oh, the amount of joy if you whatever. You [01:00:20] know what I mean? Like the cumulative joy that enlightens brought into the world by making yeah, the humans [01:00:25] teeth or whatever smiles love all of that. Exactly. But when you’re [01:00:30] dealing with these students, it’s a funny thing, you know, uh, what [01:00:35] you said is brilliant. The thing about delegating and keeping people accountable. Unfortunately, [01:00:40] people like me and you, ADHD types. Yeah. Aren’t good at that second piece. Yeah. [01:00:45] We’re not good at keeping ourselves accountable, let alone keeping other people accountable. So did you find a technique [01:00:50] or tactics that you write everything down? Yeah. Like simple stuff [01:00:55] like that doesn’t come, come, come naturally to ADHD. No.

Bashar Alturk: It [01:01:00] was really hard. I had a great team as well behind me. And it’s again, it’s just [01:01:05] those who were around me. And the honest answer is no, I don’t think I found a tactic at the time, but I just [01:01:10] learned a lot.

Payman Langroudi: You should do.

Bashar Alturk: This. This should be done. So then I’d speak to someone else, and can [01:01:15] we make sure that this is also done at this point? And then make sure just, just conversation communication. And [01:01:20] I think that’s the massive power trait of ADHD is being able to effectively [01:01:25] just communicate with people. I found that, so it’s that side. But I [01:01:30] think with all of it, whether it was the essay or the lessons learned, it’s that sink or swim, again, [01:01:35] we made mistakes, a lot of mistakes, but sort of learned [01:01:40] from them. The same with the loops business. We made loads of mistakes in that business that I can take on to the next one. Um, [01:01:45] and I know that again, my personal belief is you need a team with you and around [01:01:50] you to help. If I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know, it’s so interesting when you’ve been involved in a few things like you’ve [01:01:55] been involved in, then you go to a Zara. Yeah. And [01:02:00] in Zara, if you’ve been involved in a few things, you start paying attention, you know, like what’s [01:02:05] the staff situation here? Like, why do they do this lighting design here? [01:02:10] Or it’s very easy just to walk in as a consumer and look at a shirt. Yeah. And I’ve [01:02:15] noticed here, people who haven’t been involved in events have no idea [01:02:20] what it takes. Even like someone very close to me who who should know [01:02:25] better. Yeah. Don’t understand at all. Yeah. Like the risk. Yeah. [01:02:30] The risk in every direction. Right. You know, there’s financial risk. There’s reputational risk. [01:02:35] There’s risk of disaster. Things going wrong, people not turning up. [01:02:40] All of that sort of thing that go go through it. For someone who’s [01:02:45] never done an event like your PDSA, what were the moving parts? Venue sponsored [01:02:50] one. There’s loads to it. There’s loads.

Bashar Alturk: Even. Let’s say something as amazing as this. They bring [01:02:55] it right back down to a Dental school ball.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. It’s incredible. Our Dental [01:03:00] ball ball cost us £23,000 as a student society. That’s. That’s money. It’s [01:03:05] incredible.

Payman Langroudi: It must be much more than that.

Bashar Alturk: It was a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: I must have been at least 100 over. [01:03:10]

Bashar Alturk: I mean, from ticket sales, you at least, you know, if you have 1000 students and you’re way [01:03:15] over over. Um, and I know even Liverpool this year did an amazing [01:03:20] job.

Payman Langroudi: Big, big.

Bashar Alturk: Event. They did even more, uh, numbers. Um, and these guys all were [01:03:25] all friends and they’ve, they’ve all done amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So with various elements, for someone who doesn’t understand what [01:03:30] events are.

Bashar Alturk: She needs sponsors. First of all, you need a venue, you need to place it somewhere. [01:03:35] You need people to attend. You need ticket sales where you want.

Payman Langroudi: Ticket ting, ticketing. [01:03:40]

Bashar Alturk: Ticketing. Where are you going to sell the tickets? You need a platform to sell the tickets. On what commission are they [01:03:45] going to take? How much is the event going to cost us? What’s the upfront cost? Sponsors.

Payman Langroudi: Uh cash [01:03:50] flow right. Cash flow is gigantic.

Bashar Alturk: Because you start from a pot of almost zero, pretty [01:03:55] much especially for like dent SoC. And I guess like BSA, you’ll have a small [01:04:00] budget to try and secure a deposit for a venue, but that’s it. And [01:04:05] to try and build something from the ground is, is, is incredibly difficult and [01:04:10] at times I’ve not been the best at it. And there’s people who have learned from who are, you know, who are, I’d [01:04:15] say, okay, yeah, I like how you’ve done that. I take it from it.

Payman Langroudi: And then I kind of took over [01:04:20] from you. Yeah. And I remember pastor telling me the water bill was like £1,000. [01:04:25] Yeah, yeah. For bottles of water. Yeah. Let alone bits of [01:04:30] furniture.

Bashar Alturk: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tech. Tech. Yeah. Like those [01:04:35] screens you had.

Bashar Alturk: I remember that itself was, I think planning it [01:04:40] like 4050.

Payman Langroudi: For the tech.

Bashar Alturk: Piece. I’m pretty sure. Yeah, I remember [01:04:45] and then going yeah, so massive great friend of mine. And the way he sees stuff [01:04:50] sometimes compared to the way I see something completely different. And, and you learn [01:04:55] from, from it. So I’ve learned so much from pastor.

Payman Langroudi: I massively impressed by that.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: And that’s how he keeps himself so calm. Yeah. Um, for, for a child [01:05:05] that’s not a bad man. Yeah. Not bad.

Bashar Alturk: So much props. We’ve had our graduation [01:05:10] ball, this, this that went over and um, at the weekend and the level [01:05:15] of detail. I even said.

Payman Langroudi: How did he do.

Bashar Alturk: That? Yeah, I even said, I said I wouldn’t have [01:05:20] been able to do this level of detail, but I think it’s fine. I think it comes back from going back to [01:05:25] sport and everything. I’m not going to be the best at everything, but learning [01:05:30] from those, I surround yourself with those who are good. You know, I’ve learned so much from from other people and, [01:05:35] and yeah, so, um, parson did like the latter half of the BSA and an [01:05:40] incredible job. Um and we learnt so much from that, that [01:05:45] process itself and yeah, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go on to if [01:05:50] everything goes your way, who would you like to be in ten years time in dentistry? [01:05:55] Because you told me you love business. Yeah. You told me you kind [01:06:00] of like drilling teeth and stuff too. Yeah. Are you thinking, [01:06:05] what 50 practices guy? Or are you thinking like more like our [01:06:10] thing selling to dentists, selling to the what? Have you got any thoughts?

Bashar Alturk: Are [01:06:15] specialising not [01:06:20] sure about specialising. I think the goals I’ve set for myself and [01:06:25] I love the idea of reaching for the stars. Or is it aim for the moon and you [01:06:30] landing the stars and so yeah, I’d love to have a corporate is is the answer. [01:06:35] I’d love to have as many practices as possible. And that in itself is pretty difficult. [01:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: What is it about as many practices as possible that turns you on? Is it brand [01:06:45] recognition kind of story?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, I think that’s part of that. But [01:06:50] then again, there’s quality and there’s quantity, and there’s the debate between those.

Payman Langroudi: Is [01:06:55] it like, mum, I’ve made it kind of story?

Bashar Alturk: Definitely. That’s massive part really. Yeah, [01:07:00] massively. Mum sacrificed everything for us. Absolutely everything. So to be able [01:07:05] to show her anything of it. So like, I can’t wait to get my first paycheque and [01:07:10] do this thing of just handing it over. It’s, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: About the multiple [01:07:15] practices. Why does that turn you on?

Bashar Alturk: Just success. I think it’s always been I think [01:07:20] it does delve down to sport. And we were discussing all those really high, successful, high performing [01:07:25] people in dentistry. And maybe there is a void. I’m not sure. I’m not sure, but I want [01:07:30] to be the best. And why so.

Payman Langroudi: Many? But let me explain something to you. Like one of my dental [01:07:35] heroes, Andrew Darwood. Yeah. Uh, I mean, he’s massively [01:07:40] successful. There’s no there’s no success problem. Okay. There. He’s massively successful. [01:07:45] Um, he’s got one. I’m sure he’s got a few. He’s [01:07:50] got other, other, many, many other assets I’m sure. Yeah, yeah. But one extraordinary [01:07:55] 17 chair specialist centre in the West [01:08:00] End. One. Yeah. Yeah. And and his point of view [01:08:05] is it’s impossible to do two like this. Yeah. If you’re not in both places. Right. [01:08:10] I point out to him. Yeah. Louis Vuitton’s got shops all over the world. Right. They can manage it. Yeah. [01:08:15] But he’s kind of maybe saying this is more than it is. It’s like it’s implant [01:08:20] surgery. He does maxfax implants and this, that and the other. Yeah. He’s got a whole lot of stuff [01:08:25] going on. Yeah. But what my my general point to you is your mum will be just as proud of you if you’ve got one amazing [01:08:30] practice and or a hundred. Yeah. But yourself in terms of happiness. [01:08:35] Yeah. Some people get high on the notion of I’m this business executive [01:08:40] that goes around handling my 100 centres. Sounds [01:08:45] I like it like the sound of it. Yeah. Yeah. But there’s a lot of [01:08:50] pleasure in being the king of this one place where you’re looking [01:08:55] for perfection. Yeah. I’d say it’s a bit more like becoming that gymnast. [01:09:00] In one place, perfecting it, getting better every day, better every day. You [01:09:05] try and do it for 100 year. There’ll be there’ll be some embarrassing moments. Yeah, a bit, [01:09:10] a bit like that. Uh, you know, loops customer in Bulgaria who wasn’t happy or whatever. Yeah. [01:09:15] You know, so so what I’m saying is don’t necessarily script yourself into multiple locations [01:09:20] because sometimes, sometimes it’s a vanity metric. Yes. [01:09:25] Yeah. It’s, it’s something that sounds good. I agree sometimes.

Bashar Alturk: And [01:09:30] there’s probably an element to that. I’d love to be famous one [01:09:35] day. But yeah, I, yeah, there definitely is an element of it. And [01:09:40] it’s the death of financial element. I want to be successful. But and the honest [01:09:45] truth is the answer is I want to be able to do. I know there’s a level of wealth and above [01:09:50] that level of wealth, that happiness isn’t really going to come from that. Yeah, I [01:09:55] want to do good in the world is is the honest answer. Where do I want to open a charity I want. I [01:10:00] want to be able to have the opportunities to do something good. Do I need. [01:10:05] Do we need 100 practices? No. There’s probably other ways of going [01:10:10] around.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but listen, man, if it’s your dream, it’s your dream. Yeah. Like it might be. [01:10:15] It’s my dream to be a trampolinist. No no no. Yeah. It’s your dream. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Anything in business, I think, [01:10:20] is the answer. The idea is to, you know, if we go for 50 and we end up with three, [01:10:25] then then that’s more than enough.

Payman Langroudi: I like that, I like. So you’re saying just you want [01:10:30] you want to aim high. You want to live up to your potential.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, massively. Aim high and live up to all potential. [01:10:35] And if it’s in business or if it’s in dentistry or if it’s just being a family man, I think [01:10:40] all of them. I think that’s major teaching. I like [01:10:45] the idea of teaching. I mean, again, there is an element of selling a course, um, [01:10:50] but doing right by that course and having something to really sell. So we’ve discussed it. And I think next [01:10:55] year I’d love to open something for students to come and learn and practice a little bit further. Um. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’ve had several students who’ve had communities, [01:11:05] businesses, things aimed at students. Yeah, yeah, it’s all well and good, but students [01:11:10] don’t have any money.

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: True. Yeah. Communities are fine. But if you’re, you [01:11:15] know, if you’re excited by monetising something. Yeah. Even if it starts out with students [01:11:20] the same way as Conor did. Yeah. You you have it as some sort [01:11:25] of application to everyone. Yeah. So, you know, if your your business is called [01:11:30] student Phantom, whatever, that’s not going to work. You know, so, you know, think [01:11:35] of it like that. You know. Yes. Start on students, practice with students, whatever. Yeah. You know.

Bashar Alturk: But it [01:11:40] would be. Yeah. So if it was a course, I completely agree. It starts it starts with students. And then I guess it would go [01:11:45] those students graduate. And it’s been about building a reputation for those brands. [01:11:50] That’s obvious. I think that’s in the future with more experience.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so it seems to me [01:11:55] that you’ve got a notoriety. Kind of a missing piece. [01:12:00] That’s the wrong way to look at it. But notoriety, you want to be known?

Bashar Alturk: I’d [01:12:05] like to. Yeah, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: Is that your whole generation, or is that. Are you more than that? More than the average [01:12:10] Gen z Z alpha.

Bashar Alturk: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:12:15] why why do you want to be known, by the way? Look [01:12:20] at me. I’ve got a podcast. I got, you know, it’s just cool. I’m not, I’m not telling you off for wanting to be.

Bashar Alturk: No, no, not at all.

Payman Langroudi: But my, [01:12:25] my business partner, he, he’s the CEO of enlighten. You know, nobody knows who he is. He [01:12:30] doesn’t want to be known. Yeah. Do you have a feeling for why you want to be known?

Bashar Alturk: I’m not [01:12:35] sure. And again, there’s probably a vanity in that, but I [01:12:40] think I’ve done it before. So, for example, at university in like the first [01:12:45] month, because we were on a sports scholarship, we had to do a photo shoot for the university. And those photos were everywhere. [01:12:50] And so everyone would know you. And yes, it’s nice to be.

Payman Langroudi: Known on campus.

Bashar Alturk: Yes, unfortunately. Unfortunately. [01:12:55] Yeah. So it was, um, everyone would come up to you like, oh, you’re [01:13:00] that person. And yeah, there’s definitely an element of vanity in that sense. But [01:13:05] I also think you can impact a lot of people if you’re known people come to you, people ask you questions. [01:13:10] You can be kind to everyone. So for me, I’d spend time talking to every person [01:13:15] who ever came up to me and just being kind. I think being known, I guess, [01:13:20] is it a metric of success? Some some could say.

Payman Langroudi: When I was your age, I used [01:13:25] to think everything’s so rubbish. Okay. Yeah. And everything’s so rubbish. I want [01:13:30] to be impact. I want to make things better. Yeah. Do you feel everything’s rubbish? [01:13:35] I still think everything’s rubbish, by the way. Yes. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: I think there’s a lot of things that could be [01:13:40] improved in general. I mean even yesterday we attended a conference, a, [01:13:45] an adult conference, a dental conference and the British Society of Restorative Dentistry. [01:13:50] Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s very high end.

Bashar Alturk: It was. It was just in Leeds. And they. [01:13:55] They asked a few of us at the University would you like to go attend? And so we attended and I sort of sat there [01:14:00] and the contacts way above our heads at the moment, but I was thinking [01:14:05] this could be improved a lot more and it was an amazing. It was a good event. I kept [01:14:10] thinking, right, we could improve here. We could do that. We could do this, this. We got almost had to hold myself [01:14:15] back before speaking to the the president saying like, because in the end, at the moment I’m a nobody. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: The problem with events is, as I’m finding out at Ministry of Sound, the better the event is, the [01:14:25] more money you lose. Yes. Or the less money you make. Yeah. You know, like that’s, [01:14:30] that’s the issue with events. I mean, you could, you could say the same thing about products, but with events, there’s like a, like, listen, [01:14:35] my personal bugbear at events. Crap. Coffee. Yeah. Why can’t it be great coffee. [01:14:40] Now I’m finding out great coffee. 3500 pounds. Ridiculous. [01:14:45] And then it’s like, oh, do I spend that 3500 pounds on great coffee? Or do I spend it on something else? Something else? It’s [01:14:50] ridiculous. It’s it’s that sort of equation sometimes. [01:14:55] But, you know, like, you know, that notion of, um, the journey rather than [01:15:00] the destination. Yes. In gymnastics, did [01:15:05] you, you sound like you loved the journey. Absolutely. But it’s [01:15:10] very destination kind of determined as well because you’re going for that top level, [01:15:15] you know, intensity. You’ve got to enjoy the journey. Yeah. And enjoy it a little bit more. [01:15:20] Yeah. Than than gymnastics insomuch as see your friends, uh, make [01:15:25] friends, make friends in the first place. This thing you’re saying about this nuclear family that you’re interested [01:15:30] in. Yeah. It’s a massive issue. Yeah, it’s a massive issue. [01:15:35] Yeah. You can’t be away more than one weekend in three.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. And also, I want to. Not [01:15:40] just yet. Yeah. At some point. Yeah, I know massively.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:15:45] So let’s talk teeth now. Yeah. [01:15:50] Which aspects of the teeth do you like and which aspects don’t you like so far?

Bashar Alturk: So [01:15:55] at university, I was very lucky again. Communication [01:16:00] skills. I think we had the most amount of totals. Almost raised [01:16:05] an eyebrow at the time. I’m not going to say quality and quantity means quality. So [01:16:10] we got to see a vast array I think at dental school. We’ve done over 180 fillings [01:16:15] even, which I saw quite a lot. Um, pros. [01:16:20] I love doing crown preps, but I guess the other side of pros like dentures I’m not a fan of at [01:16:25] the moment.

Payman Langroudi: See like fixed pros.

Bashar Alturk: Yes. Fixed pros. Um, what I [01:16:30] really enjoyed was I got to do a tooth wear case at university. Um, and then we did a competition, [01:16:35] um like the like British undergraduate conference and we ended up winning that. Um, [01:16:40] and I think that’s the side of dentistry I really would like to go into because [01:16:45] just how holistic it is.

Payman Langroudi: What full mouth rehab? I think so, yeah. Okay. [01:16:50]

Bashar Alturk: Really, really enjoyed just just the difference you [01:16:55] could see from the start to the end how multidisciplinary it is and complex. [01:17:00] And almost I, from what I’ve understood and researched, quite risky. [01:17:05] You know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s dangerous, like not dangerous, but it’s important work.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Important. [01:17:10] Yeah. Risky. And also I mean very, um, fortunate at the university. You know, [01:17:15] if a composite chips, I can replace it. I guess in practice that’s a cost that you’re going [01:17:20] to have to factor in and if everything keeps failing. Um, I learnt a lot from. [01:17:25]

Payman Langroudi: Interested in blood.

Bashar Alturk: I would love to go into like maxfax [01:17:30] and that sort of stuff in general.

Payman Langroudi: I mean blood could be perio. It could be implants. [01:17:35]

Bashar Alturk: Implants for sure.

Payman Langroudi: But blood, you know, like you have to be for something like implants. [01:17:40] You’d be very happy with flaps bone. Yeah. Uh, it’s very like, you know, [01:17:45] again, high risk work. Insomuch as you know, things can go even further wrong. Yeah. [01:17:50] Are you. You’re up for that, right?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. More than happy. I spoke to we don’t do many service [01:17:55] calls at university, so I spoke. We finished. We graduated this week. Um, and I spoke to one of the consultants [01:18:00] said, please, can I come in and just learn how to do a surgical extraction before I leave? And [01:18:05] so yeah, I think on that side I’d be really happy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, listen, I mean, [01:18:10] I did max fax house job. Yeah. In your world, that would be called what they call it [01:18:15] something else. Now.

Bashar Alturk: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Dct, DCT there. I was very [01:18:20] happy to watch this guy cutting off a bit of the guy’s foot and stick it in his jaw and all that. But [01:18:25] the doing piece here, and I did, I did some of the, um, you know, A&E [01:18:30] stitching faces. Yeah. In the middle of the night. I hated that. But [01:18:35] listen, if you don’t mind blood implants for sure, man. Jump jump [01:18:40] in, jump in now. Yeah. I’d say make some decisions now. [01:18:45] Not the corporate 100 practices type decisions. You get to that, by the way. Yeah. [01:18:50] Yeah. But for now, jump into one of these aspects. They’re kind [01:18:55] of different full mouth rehab and kind of but you know, sometimes it’s the same patient, often it’s [01:19:00] the same patient. So you have to understand restorative to do implants.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, exactly. No, I [01:19:05] think the implant side, like I said, like the full mouth rehab, but the implant side I really looked into [01:19:10] understanding I’ve had, and I don’t know your opinion on it is like you said, just jump in. And I spoke to some people [01:19:15] and it’s start tomorrow. Yeah. You know, don’t wait around for five, six years. Go [01:19:20] and learn. Learn.

Payman Langroudi: I think I also don’t want people to think that if they [01:19:25] do nothing for five years, it’s a bad thing, you know? [01:19:30] Yeah. It’s not. No no, no. Let’s say you’re super tired. Yeah. Let’s say [01:19:35] you struggled. Not you. Someone else. Yeah. Struggle through dental school. Super tired [01:19:40] now? Yeah. All right. Spend four years doing simple [01:19:45] stuff. Keep everything simple. Yeah. The only trap is to. Then if that carries on, you [01:19:50] know, and it can. And and then you start to hate work because you’re not getting better at it. Yeah, but [01:19:55] it shouldn’t feel too bad. Take three years off and then do something. But okay, my [01:20:00] general advice is pick something and dive in. Okay. You know, so like, let’s say it’s [01:20:05] implants, you know, really go talk, shake hands, shadow start. [01:20:10] Let’s say, let’s put your first implant in by this time, you know, like it’s [01:20:15] good advice to like, really focus in on one of them. Yeah. But like, I don’t know, trampoline [01:20:20] over was the ring. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, yeah. Well [01:20:25] we’ll see. Give us a if we ever speak again on the podcast in, in ten years time, what sort [01:20:30] of difference would be? And then where, where we actually, it takes.

Payman Langroudi: Ten years to [01:20:35] become a really good dentist.

Bashar Alturk: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It does. Um, by [01:20:40] that time, maybe you’re on practice 73.

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: See, look, we like to talk about mistakes on [01:20:45] this board. Yeah. Clinical errors. I like I’m [01:20:50] interested in other kinds of mistakes you’ve made. What comes to mind when I say that?

Bashar Alturk: They [01:20:55] call errors straight away. Comes out to me is is that [01:21:00] over over promising over attaching myself to the [01:21:05] patient that that need and want to do the best for the patient can be very [01:21:10] detrimental at times. Um, and I think it’s led against like [01:21:15] loss of confidence sometimes and not being able to deliver it at the moment. It’s been great because I’ve learned a [01:21:20] lot from it and been able to learn different things clinically. [01:21:25] I mean, I remember the first first ever in there. I did, um, I fractured a file in the apical [01:21:30] third, um, of, of, of the canal.

Payman Langroudi: Um, that’s all right.

Bashar Alturk: It was, [01:21:35] they couldn’t get out um at the time. Um but That was probably the worst [01:21:40] thing I’ve ever done on clinics at the moment, but I was very happy to do [01:21:45] it, in a sense, and we consented the patient for the risks and explained the, the process after [01:21:50] um and I learnt a lot and I think I’m sure it will happen again [01:21:55] at some point. I’d say that’s my Dental clinical mistake. Um. [01:22:00] In life. I [01:22:05] think it has two sides to the coin. Is that sort of that [01:22:10] want and need to learn and just jumping in the sink or swim [01:22:15] mentality. It can be massively advantageous. It’s put me in rooms [01:22:20] and places in positions where, you know, I’ve learnt so much compared [01:22:25] to someone who hadn’t put themselves in that position, especially, for example, like the loops company at the moment. [01:22:30] Um, it caused me a lot of lot of issues at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how far did you get with that, by the [01:22:35] way?

Bashar Alturk: We, we sold loads, we sold about 60 and then the school put a stop to it at the time. [01:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: School figured it out.

Bashar Alturk: They they weren’t happy with with it. Students buying, [01:22:45] coming back and complications of it at a time and had to [01:22:50] go through a whole procedure, um, of, of explaining it to a board and, and like school warnings, [01:22:55] etc. and we, we said at the time.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:23:00] was it, what was it?

Bashar Alturk: Loss of argument of my payment, um.

Payman Langroudi: Or [01:23:05] failure to thrive clause that one.

Bashar Alturk: They quoted some of the GDC [01:23:10] principles.

Payman Langroudi: Just to practice.

Bashar Alturk: Yes. And a sense of like, well, if you’re going to focus [01:23:15] on why you’re not focusing on dentistry, which I wasn’t, and it was the fact [01:23:20] that you’re not a salesman.

Payman Langroudi: Were you failing dentistry?

Bashar Alturk: No, [01:23:25] no, no, no. I was, you know, as hard as I found, dental school has been very, very fortunate. Touch wood. That [01:23:30] was doing very well. I mean, clinically, it it it was raising eyebrows [01:23:35] of what we were doing in the cases, etc. and they were all doing. I mean, under the guidance of the tutor. [01:23:40] And he was very happy. Those who worked with me loved me.

Payman Langroudi: How long did it take you to sell [01:23:45] 60. Like, how long was it from beginning to the end [01:23:50] of that business? A year longer.

Bashar Alturk: Year and a half. No, 60 or 60 [01:23:55] sales as well. Those would be 60 pairs of loops that have left us in [01:24:00] that sense. Some sales, some give us [01:24:05] some at cost price to friends. Just trying to get loops out there. [01:24:10] And I think I’ve still got probably 62 was the order. I think [01:24:15] I’ve probably still got 8 or 9 just sat in my room at the moment. Just, yeah, just just [01:24:20] just sat there and something to consider in the future, um, of [01:24:25] going back to it. Um, but again, I don’t, don’t regret it at all. It caused [01:24:30] me a lot of stress in fifth year going through all that, all, all the stress.

Payman Langroudi: To business turnover [01:24:35] was like ten zero zero £0.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, we’re free as well. [01:24:40] I think if we go I see I wasn’t involved with the accounts, which was which was good. I [01:24:45] was good and bad. I was the face of it being the face of it in the Dental. The [01:24:50] other two boys weren’t dentists. They would come back and um, all [01:24:55] the issues would come to me. Yeah. Because I was the the dental person. Yeah. So yeah, [01:25:00] it was hard. Um, but it allowed us and I bought a pair of loops that I use at the [01:25:05] moment and we learnt a lot from it, but it was, it’s definitely hard. It’s hard [01:25:10] as you know, it’s hard to set a business up and I’m sure you’ve probably set others that no [01:25:15] one perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Who focussed on this one. Um, but yeah, [01:25:20] I lost money for some years. For the first three years we lost money. Yeah. For years and [01:25:25] then for another 3 or 4 years after that. Not making much money. Yeah. Um, not everyone’s like that [01:25:30] though. When you talk to some people, they like profitable day one. There’s some people are just real talent. Yeah, some businesses [01:25:35] are more like that. You know, if it’s not a product business. Yeah. If it’s a service business. Yeah. You know, like [01:25:40] it could be education. I got ten people in the room. Now they’re all paying. If I had eight people [01:25:45] in the room, I’d just cancelled the whole event and give everyone their money back. You know, like, you know, you can’t be that way. [01:25:50] Yeah. Um, what comes to mind if I ask you, what’s your favourite resource [01:25:55] in dentistry?

Bashar Alturk: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Website, [01:26:00] maybe a Instagram or.

Bashar Alturk: Website or.

Payman Langroudi: Instagram [01:26:05] page or a book.

Bashar Alturk: Massive. So with the training, [01:26:10] travelling hours per day, so podcasts, like you said, your podcast, massive fan, listen [01:26:15] to loads of them. Um, you said jazz.

Payman Langroudi: Jazz. Yeah. Very good, very [01:26:20] good, but incredible podcast.

Bashar Alturk: So the Protrusive dental podcast, just learning little, little. [01:26:25] That’s it with dentistry I found, oh, even support with trampoline little just a little bit [01:26:30] And our podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t do trampoline podcasts as well.

Bashar Alturk: No, there isn’t any at the moment. [01:26:35] And there isn’t. There isn’t one. I’d love to start a podcast at some point. Um, but there [01:26:40] isn’t many YouTube I found for students. I was, I was, you [01:26:45] know, sometimes I had like third year students coming up and wanting to use that tool to phantom head in my room and said, like, I’ve got a test [01:26:50] tomorrow. Please can we just borrow it for a bit? And I’m like, yeah, of course you can. And I’ll sit there and I’ll actually teach. And I [01:26:55] almost feel like a fraud because in the honest truth, what do I know at the moment? But, um, [01:27:00] I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Just watching this idea, like in your student room.

Bashar Alturk: Two free.

Payman Langroudi: Youtube for [01:27:05] kids drilling genuinely.

Bashar Alturk: And, um, yeah, [01:27:10] YouTube’s incredible resource. Just searching for particular procedures and there’s like Stevenson [01:27:15] Dental solutions. They’re very good. Just, just, just learning. And I think that for any resource, [01:27:20] put yourself even with the restorative, um, conference yesterday, 90% [01:27:25] of it’s going to fly over my head, but that one little bit will make the 6 or 7 hours or so [01:27:30] worth it. So I think so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny, I’ve been telling I’ve been telling these speakers for ministry. They’ve [01:27:35] only got 20 minutes for their lectures. Cool. Yeah. I was saying that that one little bit that everyone bangs [01:27:40] on about. Yeah. If they get 1 or 2 little bits from each speaker. [01:27:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s 20 minutes. There’s a lot of speakers going out. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: That’s incredibly smart. [01:27:50] Those 20 minutes, your audience will be captivated for difficult.

Payman Langroudi: As a speaker, it’s very difficult. [01:27:55] The shorter it is, the more difficult it is. I can imagine you have to take stuff out.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, [01:28:00] like there’s there’s Andrew Darwin’s going to be speaking. He’s doing this mass massive. Like, [01:28:05] uh, I’ve told him, I’ve asked him, can you do something maxillofacial? Okay. [01:28:10] And just like talking about it will take your time.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:28:15] but I, it’s interesting, like to introspect. Yeah. When, when you think about talking about dentistry, [01:28:20] introspect and think, what is my 1 or 2 contributions [01:28:25] to this whole narrative. Yeah. And you’ll appreciate you’re a bit too early [01:28:30] in dentistry, but you’ll appreciate in trampoline. Yeah. There is 1 or 2 things that’s [01:28:35] you. Yeah. You know that it’s your innovation. Yeah. And that’s really [01:28:40] the difference between a teacher and all the rest of us who are not such great teachers, is that [01:28:45] they’ve got more of those 1 or 2. They’ve got 4 or 5 things that they’ve come up with themselves [01:28:50] that, you know, it’s a really interesting thing to think about that, you know, what is the 1 or [01:28:55] 2 things that you’ve put into the world? Yeah, yeah. And I can see from your the way you’re talking, [01:29:00] you’re definitely that sort of Steve Jobs kind of. No, no, not, not that you [01:29:05] are. But Steve Jobs has this thing about you can make a dent in the world. Yeah, yeah. Like [01:29:10] the same thing I was saying to you. You can walk to Zara and pick a shirt up, or you can walk into [01:29:15] Zara and say, what are they doing here? You know? You know what Dental are they putting into the world? Yeah. [01:29:20] What comes to mind when I ask you, what’s the best lecture you’ve been to? Lecturer.

Bashar Alturk: It’s [01:29:25] a big, big question. Payman because there’s a lot of times [01:29:30] I’ll sit and look at the lecture and switch off within a couple of minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, the education system [01:29:35] doesn’t cater for loads of people with ADHD kind of thing. No. [01:29:40] Low concentration types?

Bashar Alturk: No.

Payman Langroudi: What does come to mind? Even like [01:29:45] Ted talk. Tell me like something. Like something not Dental.

Bashar Alturk: I mean, honest [01:29:50] answer genuinely is podcast like these, you know, Dental Leaders the protrusive one itself. [01:29:55] I can tune in. I find it very.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Bashar Alturk: Very, very.

Payman Langroudi: Good. His [01:30:00] voice is brilliant for that.

Bashar Alturk: So calming. Yeah. Um, conferences. [01:30:05] I remember watching Amit Patel at um, [01:30:10] PDSA one year and it was just very, uh, [01:30:15] implants at the time. Perio implants. He’s a cool dude. He was very, very cool. And that’s [01:30:20] it captivated the audience just the way he spoke. Yeah. Interactive wasn’t [01:30:25] too serious. I think that was the main thing. And it just [01:30:30] involved the audience and in genuine that’s [01:30:35] the word, I think, for all of you, whether it’s yourself or whether it was Amit Patel, it’s it’s [01:30:40] just been genuine. And you can tell that through a podcast or a lecture or a podcast. [01:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bashar Alturk: You can, you can tell.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Fancy [01:30:50] dinner party, three guests dead or alive. [01:30:55] Are you having.

Bashar Alturk: Oh, I’ve been debating and debating [01:31:00] debating it for like the past two weeks even. I was driving, I was walking on here. We’d gone [01:31:05] to the to the wrong building. I said to my mum, oh, I’m still not sure the first one would be [01:31:10] my grandfather. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Dad’s mom’s.

Bashar Alturk: Dad. Mom’s dad. Yeah. Never [01:31:15] met him, never met him. He.

Payman Langroudi: The stories were the legends about him.

Bashar Alturk: He sounds [01:31:20] like an absolute incredible person, and I think I would have had a lot to learn from him. He [01:31:25] he was like the Minister of Industry in industrial [01:31:30] in Jordan.

Payman Langroudi: He oh, in government he yeah. He was a [01:31:35] businessman before that.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. He he he sorted like loads of factories out. He was the first [01:31:40] to send his sisters like. So he sent all his sisters to university and all his [01:31:45] like all the girls, he was a big pioneer of of that side and you know, education first. [01:31:50] Um and he was ill during the whole time. So he had pulmonary fibrosis [01:31:55] at the time. And so my mum lost him very young, but [01:32:00] the stories of what he did and how modern his way [01:32:05] of thinking was at that time, I love to have a conversation with him and [01:32:10] just sounds amazing. And I just learned he was an not RAF, he was, [01:32:15] um, an engineer in the Army as well. So I think, yeah, it’d [01:32:20] be really cool to learn from him. Second one for me. I love boxing and [01:32:25] would be Muhammad Ali. Um, just for what he stands for.

Payman Langroudi: He was so much more than boxing, [01:32:30] wasn’t he?

Bashar Alturk: But so much more.

Payman Langroudi: Because I hate boxing. But but Muhammad Ali I love. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: It’s [01:32:35] just the adversities. And you know during that period what he had [01:32:40] to overcome I incredible. Third [01:32:45] one I struggled with a lot. Um for me [01:32:50] is is dong dong. It’s um, he’s like a five. His [01:32:55] name’s dong dong a Chinese.

Payman Langroudi: Dong.

Bashar Alturk: Dong dong dong dong dong dong.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Chinese jumping. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Um. World champion. Olympic [01:33:05] champion. Multiple. Um, like multiple Olympic medallists. Just incredible. [01:33:10] He is the pioneer of the sport. Um.

Payman Langroudi: When was it around? When [01:33:15] was.

Bashar Alturk: He. He won his first medal in 2008 and his last 1 in [01:33:20] 2020. Um and through he Olympic medal we’re talking it dominated [01:33:25] the sport. And and now he’s a coach. But just he [01:33:30] was incredible. And um we’ve been in the same room at times. So I’m hoping to get the conversation [01:33:35] at some point. Um, last time we were in China. Um yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s [01:33:40] China like? Have you been there recently?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So we went there in [01:33:45] 2023.

Payman Langroudi: It’s unbelievable. Now it’s it’s looks futuristic. That’s [01:33:50] it.

Bashar Alturk: Really genuinely that’s it. It’s a different world. It’s like London massively [01:33:55] busy populated. People are genuinely lovely. But [01:34:00] just the technology and how quick they can put buildings up and things. It [01:34:05] was, you know, the the Olympic Village that we, we, we stayed in um for the Asian Games. [01:34:10] They built a whole village for, for these athletes within like a [01:34:15] year. It was, it was, it was incredible. And I remember there was like a there was a robot and I was playing tennis [01:34:20] against a robot in a.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really, really.

Bashar Alturk: So which yeah, it was, it’s [01:34:25] an incredible. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the experience of being in that sort of Asian [01:34:30] Games village or whatever? What’s that feel like? Is it fun in itself just being there? [01:34:35]

Bashar Alturk: It’s it’s insane.

Payman Langroudi: You give yourself the time to enjoy it or you sort of focussed [01:34:40] on the I loved it.

Bashar Alturk: No, I love up until the day before the competition, I loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Stop [01:34:45] and smell the roses.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, it’s genuinely. Everyone from different countries, different [01:34:50] kits.

Payman Langroudi: Has everyone meeting and happy to meet and.

Bashar Alturk: Everyone’s happy to meet. Um, [01:34:55] massive like Food Village and the Food Village itself is incredible. Like as much [01:35:00] KFC, McDonald’s, like all these like just and foods as much as you wanted activities [01:35:05] to do the way you treated like a VIP, [01:35:10] staying in these really nice places and walking into that, like the, the Chinese [01:35:15] people really treated you as a celebrity. So I was walking around and people were asking for my signatures. I was like, [01:35:20] uh, yeah, I’m just like, uh, okay. And yeah, [01:35:25] it’s a competition on that level. It’s just amazing. You go and watch [01:35:30] other sports so you go support other sports as well. It’s such an experience, but absolutely [01:35:35] like petrifying at the same time.

Payman Langroudi: Petrifying what? [01:35:40] The actual competing piece.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. I remember the day before just almost like just being in tears from the pressure. Like [01:35:45] just, just I remember I met like the queen, uh, sorry, the princess of Jordan. They, they came [01:35:50] to watch me, um, at the time, but like that didn’t add pressure, but it was just the whole [01:35:55] event and you really feel.

Payman Langroudi: So were you Jordan, at this point?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. So that was what I was. I moved over [01:36:00] to Jordan after the injury.

Payman Langroudi: Before that you were Great Britain?

Bashar Alturk: Yes. I represented Great Britain and England at the [01:36:05] time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So interesting man. And the sort [01:36:10] of overall feeling is like massively positive. Or do some people not not find [01:36:15] it positive? Some people not enjoy being there.

Bashar Alturk: I think I [01:36:20] think those who go to that, I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, the pressure, if it’s bringing you to tears. Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah, [01:36:25] I.

Payman Langroudi: Remember it’s such an agony and ecstasy kind of thing.

Bashar Alturk: I think those of that [01:36:30] competition would have I assume a lot of them would enjoy it. Yeah. I think I’ve seen so many people [01:36:35] who can’t handle the pressure and that’s okay. There’s different avenues. Um, who [01:36:40] are talented and can’t handle the pressure leave the sport earlier. I think when you get to that stage, [01:36:45] you’ve already qualified, you’ve done big events before to get to, to the competition of that [01:36:50] calibre. I think a lot of them would would enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: Scratched your itch a little bit for [01:36:55] the whole being famous piece, right?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me the feeling of when someone gives you a medal [01:37:00] at the end of some competition that you’ve worked your butt off for. Is it relief? Is it what [01:37:05] is it like? What’s that feeling feel like.

Bashar Alturk: Pure joy of the [01:37:10] event. And you do really enjoy it When you finish the routine and you know you’re in cameras, [01:37:15] you see yourself on the screen and you get the score and you’re with your coach and you’ve won. It’s just amazing. [01:37:20] Even even though I came sixth in Asia, so I didn’t even win at that point.

Payman Langroudi: That’s big.

Bashar Alturk: As well. That was the you know, I even [01:37:25] FaceTimed my parents at the time whilst I was in the arena and oh, it was, it was a massive [01:37:30] experience. It was, it was really good, honest answer. And maybe as cliche as it [01:37:35] sounds, the medal. No one cares. You’ll sit there.

Payman Langroudi: The item.

Bashar Alturk: The actual [01:37:40] item. Yeah. The all in my room.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bashar Alturk: You’ll never ever look at it [01:37:45] again. And it is that the journey up to there, the moment of everyone.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:37:50] is there an element of relief or is it, is it just just excitement?

Bashar Alturk: Um, [01:37:55] all excitement up until maybe an hour or two after the [01:38:00] event. And then it’s the relief at the time.

Payman Langroudi: And then when you come back and your mum says, take the rubbish [01:38:05] bin out, that must be a real downer.

Bashar Alturk: It’s hard, especially the third year. So third year I went to the Asian [01:38:10] Games. It took me months. I really.

Bashar Alturk: Really, really, really.

Bashar Alturk: Months. You [01:38:15] on such a high. You almost not in contact with anyone on the outside [01:38:20] world. Sport, sport, train, focus, sport and you’re there for, you know, you’re there for two weeks, [01:38:25] um, give or take like the whole from opening ceremony to the closing ceremony. And [01:38:30] so you live in this bubble and you leave and it’s massive part of my life. I know trampolines, not football, but [01:38:35] for me, it was incredible. Everything. It was everything. So coming back and even going back to [01:38:40] training, it’s like, well, it takes a while. It’s like, well, and there’s a lot of athletes that talk about sort [01:38:45] of like a, a depression period after major events because they’re not [01:38:50] sure what to do with themselves. And I found it hard.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s real, man. I even come back from mini smart about [01:38:55] a composite. Yeah. Hands on course. Yeah, yeah. And that night when I’m taking the rubbish out, I feel a bit poor. A bit low. [01:39:00] Yeah.

Bashar Alturk: Like holiday blues.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Bashar Alturk: But amplified because.

Payman Langroudi: Times [01:39:05] a thousand.

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. Because everything had worked to for me, I’d achieved at that point. [01:39:10] I’d lived that dream for me and I was like, well.

Payman Langroudi: What now?

Bashar Alturk: Yeah. [01:39:15] Like, I mean, there’s so much, if you really want it to look like nowhere near the best in the [01:39:20] world. But for me, it was good. Um, yeah, it’s [01:39:25] it’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed this, man. It’s been a massive pleasure. Learned a lot from you. Thank [01:39:30] you. Brilliant mindset. You’ve got brilliant, brilliant mind. I’m really looking forward to seeing how you develop. Um, [01:39:35] but make sure you stay in touch.

Bashar Alturk: No, massively, massively appreciate being here. And I’ve. I’ve loved [01:39:40] it and all the waffle I’ve said. So thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Bashar Alturk: Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:39:45] for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. [01:39:50] Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:39:55] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating. [01:40:00]

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:40:05] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

VOICE: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Afzal [00:00:45] Haq onto the podcast. Afzal was an endodontist interesting [00:00:50] road to endodontics. It’s a full on practice owner, ten [00:00:55] years of general practice before deciding to go down that route in South Manchester. Indo [00:01:00] 41 is the name of the Indo branch.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. M41 [00:01:05] Indo.

Payman Langroudi: M41.

Afzal Haque: Is the postcode of where we are. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the practice squad. [00:01:10]

Afzal Haque: What’s the practice is Stretford Road Dental practice. That’s my main practice. But I have a little Indo [00:01:15] branch in there. Call M41 Indo.

Payman Langroudi: And you trained with some of the people I’ve had on the show already.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So [00:01:20] shout out to uh Amal Hourani. He was in my in my group. So [00:01:25] when we did our specialist training, there was four of us. Um, and he was one, he was one of the four. So I [00:01:30] spent a lot of time with him. Um, Rob Jacobs he was the above me. A good friend of mine lives [00:01:35] locally to me. We, we chat a lot. Um indo and non indo stuff. Um [00:01:40] sanj has he been on your, on your podcast. No, but he’s a good friend of yours isn’t he. Yeah. You know [00:01:45] him well. Yeah. Um he taught me um so a lot of a [00:01:50] lot of the Indo guys, um and then other people as well that I’ve been on kind of, I know quite a few [00:01:55] NASA came on not long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Manchester’s kind of a small place in that sense.

Afzal Haque: Everyone [00:02:00] knows it’s a good place. I’ve been born and bred there, so it’s. I’ve never left it really, apart from just to [00:02:05] go to Liverpool for three years.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not want to leave Manchester for uni?

Afzal Haque: So. So [00:02:10] going back to very, very beginning I was okay. Student average student, [00:02:15] just getting into dentistry was just like everything to me. So I got [00:02:20] an offer from Manchester. It was my first offer given to me not offer interview. [00:02:25] Yeah. Um, and I went along to that and literally the next day I [00:02:30] was given the, the offer. And I think from what I remember, you could only pick one and one, the other one had to [00:02:35] be non dentistry. So as I was applying and the interview started coming, I just cancelled [00:02:40] everything else because my dad said, you know what, you got Manchester, no need for you to go anywhere else. It’s just easier [00:02:45] for us. It’d be easier for you. You’ll thank me for it. Um, and and that was it. So I never [00:02:50] really had a desire to.

Payman Langroudi: To go away. A shadow of regret.

Afzal Haque: I think when I went to Liverpool, [00:02:55] I went as a as a 34 year old and I, [00:03:00] I we’ll come on to it later. But I spent one year there alone and that [00:03:05] was very new to me because I’ve never lived alone.

Payman Langroudi: Did you live at home during university as [00:03:10] well? I did, I lived at home.

Afzal Haque: Well, I only lived two and a half miles down, down from the university. One bus, [00:03:15] 15 minutes and I was there. It made no sense to to live in.

Payman Langroudi: My son [00:03:20] did engineering. Yeah. And the best school for engineering is one of the best is Imperial College. [00:03:25] Yeah, but Royal College is the building next door to his school. Yes. I banned him from even applying.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [00:03:30] yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I’ve got kids now. I mean, what would I advise them, um, if they wanted [00:03:35] to? There’s no problem. But I don’t feel I missed out on university life because [00:03:40] my parents were very trusting, very, you know, modern thinking said, do you know what? As long as you’re back [00:03:45] home for a decent time, do what you want. So my mates lived in halls [00:03:50] and I’d, I’d go to uni and then go and meet them in their halls and spend a lot.

Payman Langroudi: If If you want to come home in an indecent [00:03:55] time.

Afzal Haque: Indecent time, well, I’d have to give him a call before that. I’d have to give him a call just just to warn them where I am. [00:04:00] That happened a few times. And and mothers never sleep. My dad was fast asleep, [00:04:05] but mothers, this.

Payman Langroudi: Was the days before mobile phones were like, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: I think we just got our mobile phone [00:04:10] then. So it would have been what, 2001? Okay, see that one? Yeah. So I had, you know, the typical Nokia [00:04:15] with the big buttons where you step on them to, to, you know, to, to dial, dial the numbers. [00:04:20] Um, but my mum would never sleep. She’d come home, she’d give me a look and she’d just look at me and [00:04:25] she, I think she would just analyse what I looked like at that time of night. And [00:04:30] she said, fine. But yeah, it was, they were very, very good with me. So I never felt like I missed out [00:04:35] on university. Yeah. I didn’t live on my own. I didn’t fend for myself, um, at that time. Um, [00:04:40] but we were brought up to, to do a lot of stuff by ourselves. So even at home, we were kind of doing our own [00:04:45] laundry and just helping out. Mum did help, of course, and dad also helped.

Payman Langroudi: What do your parents do? [00:04:50]

Afzal Haque: So my dad is a retired school teacher. So he came from India, um, [00:04:55] in, in the 70s, a long story, but um, he came over [00:05:00] here, um for medical treatment. So he’s, he’s, he’s the [00:05:05] son of a, of a, of a doctor from India. My grandfather was a surgeon. Um, my [00:05:10] father as a young child, she used to suffer from severe headaches. So my [00:05:15] grandfather used to, used to give him injections. I’m, I’m guessing it was probably morphine at that time. [00:05:20] And he, my dad used to said to me, he goes, your grandfather used to say, oh, either you going to this pain is going to [00:05:25] go or you’re not going to wake up. Because my dad said this. The pain was [00:05:30] that severe. So my grandfather did his postgraduate training in Manchester. [00:05:35] Um, so he did his primary medical degree from India, came over here, his post-grad training, went back [00:05:40] to India. So he knew colleagues in Manchester, my dad’s sister. So my dad’s number [00:05:45] in contact, you know, for context, my dad’s number, seven of eight children.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Big family, [00:05:50] big Indian family. So his sister, who would have been number four or number five, [00:05:55] was a fair bit older than him. So maybe, maybe ten, 15 years older than him. She [00:06:00] was married to an accountant and had settled in Manchester. So my grandfather knew that [00:06:05] his sister’s there. So he said, well, I’m going to send you over to Manchester and let’s get you fully checked out. So. So that [00:06:10] took years. So my dad came here probably at age 11, enrolled in a school, lived [00:06:15] with his sister and in an area of South Manchester called Worsley. Years [00:06:20] went by and diagnosis came out that everything was fine. I think [00:06:25] the suspicion was he had a brain tumour, but he didn’t. Eventually, as he. As he got older, he grew out of it. But [00:06:30] then he was fully fledged in the local society. He was he was a student. Um, so [00:06:35] my grandfather left him. Um, so he ended up staying here. So during [00:06:40] his, I think 16 or 17 years old, maybe GCSE A levels would have been O-levels [00:06:45] at the time. His sister emigrated to the Middle East with her husband. They got a new job. [00:06:50] So then he became a lodger with one of his class fellows families, an Irish [00:06:55] family.

Afzal Haque: Um, yeah. His friend was called Anthony. And, um, we call him Uncle Anthony today because [00:07:00] he’s actually he’s more my dad’s brother than he is a friend. So they keep him. He’s [00:07:05] moved to Australia now. So my dad lived with them at the time of living with them. He [00:07:10] obviously worked, studied, worked, studied. He didn’t have any family support. So his [00:07:15] dream was to be a doctor. But he lost a few years because of his illness. And then, you know, [00:07:20] um, appointments, this, that and the other. And he, he couldn’t concentrate long for studying [00:07:25] because the headaches would come. So he was very good at biology. And then he said, look, I need to [00:07:30] do something that’s going to be quick. I can get through it. I can get myself a career and move on with it. [00:07:35] So he did. He did zoology as a primary degree and then went on to do a [00:07:40] masters and did a teaching degree and started off as a technician. [00:07:45] A lab technician in a school became a teacher in that same school and 40 years later [00:07:50] retired at that school.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Afzal Haque: So that’s how he did it. So he was a he, he was he was self-made. [00:07:55] Pretty much no family support, um, moral support, phone calls, all that kind of [00:08:00] stuff, but not financially. Um, and then in 1979, he went back to [00:08:05] India, married my mother and brought her back over in 81. And I was born 82. [00:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: Did she work?

Afzal Haque: No, my mom didn’t work here. So my mom was, um, a school teacher in India. So [00:08:15] she taught Hindi and she, she was, she had a degree in sociology, so she taught primary school children. So [00:08:20] she was working there. But then, um, after marrying my dad, um, came here housewife [00:08:25] hated it here. Absolutely hated it.

Payman Langroudi: You could imagine. Absolutely.

Afzal Haque: So [00:08:30] my mum um, comes from quite a, a noble background back home. Um, I don’t [00:08:35] know if you’re aware of how the, the Indian um aristocracy, um [00:08:40] kingdoms used to work back in.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Afzal Haque: Maharajahs. Yeah. Uh, Hindus were with Maharajahs [00:08:45] and Muslims were were nawabs. So my mother was a granddaughter [00:08:50] of Nawab. Oh, yeah. So the stories that she tells [00:08:55] us, I can’t imagine that happened. But she was saying that her childhood, they [00:09:00] played with elephants and all that kind of stuff. That was that was the pets that they owned. Um, so she seen quite [00:09:05] a lot. And then she married my father because he, he was, um, family, [00:09:10] friends of her family. He was abroad, he had a good stable job, but she knew [00:09:15] how to do nothing. She didn’t cook, she didn’t clean. And then she came here and realised that I’ve got to [00:09:20] do everything myself. So that was a shock to her. Um, a big cultural shock. So [00:09:25] when I was born, um, she took me back to India. Um, so I was born here in Manchester, but at the age of [00:09:30] about nine months, my father was like, you’re struggling. I’ve got to work. Let’s you go back [00:09:35] home, um, for a year while he’s young and you get all the help. So she went and took me back home. I don’t remember [00:09:40] any of it, but I seen pictures.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the oldest.

Afzal Haque: I’m the eldest. Yeah. Brother and I’ve got one younger brother. [00:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: What does he.

Afzal Haque: Do? He’s a pharmacist. He’s a pharmacist. He actually works for the GDC [00:09:50] equivalent of pharmacy. So he was a clinical pharmacist. He owned his own pharmacy [00:09:55] and did it for years but didn’t quite gel with it. But then he developed his pharmacy [00:10:00] from nothing to a profitable pharmacy and got [00:10:05] very much involved in the admin and the, the politics side of things. And then he got recruited to, [00:10:10] um, be an insulator. Yeah. Regulatory inspector. So very lovely job. Works from home. Um, [00:10:15] managed his own diary, goes a few days a week to do inspections. [00:10:20] He’s back home by two. Great job. So, so that’s what he does. Yeah. So my mum [00:10:25] going back to my mum. So so I went back to India for a while and then [00:10:30] and then then after a year we came back and my dad and my mum just started [00:10:35] a family. My brother was born a couple of years later and that was it. So my dad was the sole owner of the house, [00:10:40] lived in a very humble part of Manchester. And um, it was all about education, [00:10:45] education, education.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. Quite a lot of dentists are children of [00:10:50] teachers.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve, you know, I’ve had a few people sit where you’re sitting telling me their parents were teachers. [00:10:55] What’s it like? I mean, being is there like no option [00:11:00] but to study and. Yes. So as a child of a teacher, as an Asian child of a teacher.

Afzal Haque: In my [00:11:05] family, 100%. Um, so, so I’m lucky. I’m very lucky. Fortunate. All my cousins [00:11:10] have done very well in life. They’re either doctors or some sort of medical profession or lawyer. [00:11:15] They’ve got some sort of profession. Um, so my dad’s my dad didn’t make it as a doctor. [00:11:20] He wanted to be a doctor, but through illness, he didn’t. It’s not like he didn’t have the intelligence. He just didn’t have the opportunity. [00:11:25] Um, and time was on on his side. Wasn’t on his side. But my dad lodged when [00:11:30] he was at university. He went to Manchester University and his, two of his best mates were dentists. [00:11:35] And um, he got on with them very, very [00:11:40] well. Um, and to this day he still, still good friends with him. They’ve all got kids similar age as us. So as [00:11:45] young children we used to visit them and.

Payman Langroudi: So you could see what was going on in [00:11:50] their lives.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. And my dad would tell me. So, you know, obviously these, these uncle come uncles [00:11:55] are our dentists, you know, was this something that you’d, you, you know, you might want to be interested [00:12:00] in. So he, they, one of them was a general dentist, one was an orthodontist. And the general dentist was in Manchester. [00:12:05] So we used to go as patients. So he’d do his check-up. And I remember looking at the surgery thinking, [00:12:10] this is cool, you know, you know, that smell that that you have when you when you when you hit a dental [00:12:15] surgery, it hits you straight in the face. Um, I remembered that and I was like, oh, I wonder what [00:12:20] he does. And then his kids were all in private schools. We weren’t, um, they [00:12:25] had nice holidays, you know, they had a nice lifestyle. So I used to ask my dad, I said, dad, what do they do? And he [00:12:30] said dentist. And that’s how I started to get interested in more because [00:12:35] it was Uncle Navin, uh, who was in Manchester. Um. Big respect to him and Uncle [00:12:40] Afzal. I was named after Uncle Obzl. Um, because my dad, um, [00:12:45] really liked him. He was a good man. Um, he’s retired orthodontist about a couple of years ago [00:12:50] now. So then we got familiar with with their families and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:12:55] Little did you know, that was the Jedi mind trick your dad was playing.

Afzal Haque: Maybe. So I think I [00:13:00] think deep down, he wanted me to be a medic. But then I think he, you know, because he spent a lot of time with these guys, he [00:13:05] was like, these guys were good life.

Payman Langroudi: You could see they were happy.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, they were happy. They were successful. The kids were doing [00:13:10] well. And that’s all you want as a parent, don’t you? You want you know, all fathers, [00:13:15] mothers want them to do better than they’ve done. So that was his.

Payman Langroudi: Traditionally, I just follow the line, [00:13:20] go and say what happened next, what happened next? But I’m interested in the inflection point that took you to [00:13:25] Indo.

Afzal Haque: Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. Here we go.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go straight there.

Afzal Haque: Let’s go straight there. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So so were you already quite [00:13:30] good at Indo as a general practitioner?

Afzal Haque: As a, as a, um newly qualified dentist. [00:13:35] I hated endo like.

Payman Langroudi: Like all.

Afzal Haque: Of us. Like all of us. No, but seriously hated it.

Payman Langroudi: Had you perforated in college? [00:13:40]

Afzal Haque: I’ve done everything. I’ve done everything.

Payman Langroudi: As a young.

Afzal Haque: Man. As a young man, I hated it. Um. And [00:13:45] when I got married to my wife in 2009, she and her sister, who’s also a dentist, they were doing [00:13:50] their own sort of, they were, um, opening up a practice and they had done and [00:13:55] they were kind of doing their own thing. I was doing.

Payman Langroudi: Qualified in India.

Afzal Haque: No, no no no. Um, my, my [00:14:00] wife, she qualified with me Manchester. She was in my year. Yeah yeah yeah. Sister qualified five years [00:14:05] um ahead of her. So the two of them were setting up a squat practice. So [00:14:10] she had bought all the equipment etc.. So very early on in our marriage, um, I, I just remember [00:14:15] the night before the endo, I just wouldn’t sleep, just wouldn’t, just wouldn’t sleep. And then she’d be like, what [00:14:20] is wrong with you? Why are you panicking? It’s just work. And I was like, I’ve got this endodontic treatment. Um, [00:14:25] I don’t know where to start. I’ve had some problems in the past. And she was like, why [00:14:30] are you so bothered about it? And she’s like, what are you using? And at that time, we weren’t taught rotary instrumentation [00:14:35] at university. Just hand files. I told her I’m using this, and we had this gigantic handpiece that [00:14:40] you put a file in and just does a quarter turn, basically reciprocation at the time. I had no idea [00:14:45] about other stuff. And then she was like, well, I’ve got this new kit, why don’t you use this? And I said, I don’t know about [00:14:50] this. I can’t just take this tomorrow. And she goes, tell you what. Um, I’ll come with [00:14:55] you one day. We’ll do some practice, then I’ll come with you and I’ll watch you do it and I’ll show you how to do. And that’s [00:15:00] how it started. As soon as I started to get used to this rotary stuff, I thought, this is amazing. What is [00:15:05] this? And then one treatment. Next treatment. Next. Start to get better and better. So that’s how [00:15:10] Endo started to get better at it. But then family came and everything came and I thought, right, how can I improve [00:15:15] my skills? So I took on a part time master’s.

Afzal Haque: So it’s 2012. [00:15:20] No start again, 2014. I started my son. Son had been born then. So [00:15:25] did that part time. That was simply a brilliant course. And at that time it was in it [00:15:30] was in South Manchester. So that’s how I started and that’s how I got better. But in 2013, [00:15:35] we got my we we bought our practice. So that was the environment I could start doing. [00:15:40] And so once I started to get know the patients a little bit, you know, we started, I started to do a bit more complex treatment [00:15:45] and started a bit more, you know, being a bit braver. And [00:15:50] that’s how that started initially. But I always were looking for the next stage. And I got [00:15:55] to a point where I said, well, I thought, how do I do this day in, day out? I wasn’t confident enough [00:16:00] at the time to just completely give up general dentistry. I thought that was my safety net and I did enjoy it to [00:16:05] a huge extent, really. But then it was in 2015, so [00:16:10] 2015, there was an endodontic conference in Southampton, and I went there to buy a microscope [00:16:15] because I was like, I’m formalising my education, I’m going to get the right equipment. And I was using Loupes at the time, [00:16:20] which was great, but I wanted to step it up. So we went to Southampton and I was looking for a microscope [00:16:25] and just seeing it like you do, see all the reps, see what the best deal is on the day. But my aim was to come back with a [00:16:30] deal. That was the aim. And I met my very good friend, colleague, [00:16:35] mentor Sanjay.

Payman Langroudi: Sanjay Bhandari for the first time.

Afzal Haque: No, no, I met him. I’ve known him through [00:16:40] the endo circles. He was actually my one of the tutors at undergrad at Manchester. So I [00:16:45] think he was, um, he was, he was relatively new to Manchester at the time and he [00:16:50] was teaching there as well. So I knew him. So he remembered me and he just, we just bumped into each other and said, oh, what [00:16:55] are you, what are you, what are you doing here? And I said, well, I’m interested in endo. I’m doing a little bit of endo. I’m doing the simply [00:17:00] endo course. He said, do you do a lot of it? I said, yeah, I do a fair amount. I said, but I want to get really better. [00:17:05] And he goes, why don’t you why don’t you become a specialist? I’m like, um, [00:17:10] because I’ve got wife, two kids. I live in Manchester and at [00:17:15] the time I only was aware of courses in London. So I live in Manchester. [00:17:20] There’s no way I’m going to, you know, down to London at the time, my brother in law um [00:17:25] is a specialist periodontist. He was doing his specialist training In in [00:17:30] the Eastman. Oh, so he was doing it then. So he was like, I’ve got a flat here. [00:17:35] Just come, come to London. I was like, well, it’s not as simple as that. Um, and recently we just bought [00:17:40] the practice. So 2015 we bought the practice 2013. So I was like, no, this is not [00:17:45] the right thing for me.

Afzal Haque: Then Sam said, um, why don’t you just do it in Liverpool? I’m like, what? Liverpool? [00:17:50] Apart from football, I didn’t know anything else about Liverpool. Um and he said, well they’ve [00:17:55] just started of course 2013. They just started um what we call the doctorate of um [00:18:00] dental science degree in endodontics. And it’s a three year full time specialist training course. He goes, [00:18:05] it’s local to you because I warn you, it’s hard work, but it’s doable because [00:18:10] of where you live. And he said, go and speak to the programme director, um [00:18:15] Prof. Prof. Gerard and just just get [00:18:20] a feel for it. So I came back with a microscope which my wife was absolutely [00:18:25] fuming. She’s like just spent God knows how much money. And this silly idea in her [00:18:30] mind at the time to to do this specialist training. But we thought [00:18:35] about it and then she was like, my wife was my it’s my biggest, biggest support, [00:18:40] biggest fan. And if it weren’t for her, there’s no way this would have happened. So she [00:18:45] was like thinking about this more. And she was like, you’re [00:18:50] good at this. We’ve got our own practice. We’re in our [00:18:55] 30s. Dental career, God willing, can be many, many years. What’s [00:19:00] three years if you can get on to it? And she [00:19:05] said, well, you must try, because I know now. But at [00:19:10] the back of her, she always wanted me to be the best I could be.

Afzal Haque: So she, she had a dream [00:19:15] that, you know, I’ll try and push him as far as he can. If he can make it to specialist level, that would be brilliant. [00:19:20] But she never. She never pushed me. But when this opportunity she got wind of it, she was like, right, okay. Um, [00:19:25] she said, go and meet them. Go to Liverpool, go meet, go meet Faddy. So I made an appointment, [00:19:30] went and saw Faddy and he was lovely. He was very nice. He showed me around [00:19:35] and he just said to me, look, this is really tough. Course it’s going to take over your life. You [00:19:40] cannot work in the in these three years. Um, I know you’ve got a practice. I [00:19:45] know you’ve done postgraduate training. Um, sorry. Um you’ve done postgraduate [00:19:50] master’s already. He goes but it’s very different. Um he goes, have a think about it. [00:19:55] And if you want to do it, my advice would be to make an application. [00:20:00] I was trying to read in between the lines. I was like, okay. And I had no, um, [00:20:05] prior to that, no formal, um, pathway. So I went from straight to [00:20:10] being an associate straight to owner of practice. So did a no show job, no publications, no CV, nothing. [00:20:15] My CV was just practice, practice, practice. I’m thinking I’m the wrong person to do this. Um, anyway, [00:20:20] so I went back and I said.

Payman Langroudi: What was the cost?

Afzal Haque: The cost at the time was about 20 grand a year, 20 [00:20:25] grand.

Payman Langroudi: A year. And the lost income.

Afzal Haque: And the lost income as well.

Payman Langroudi: So just the financial calculation was huge. I mean, [00:20:30] did you have to make changes at home?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So then when when we came, when I came back and we did all the all the maths, my [00:20:35] wife said to me, she goes, you know what, forget about the money at the moment. Just go and apply. If you get [00:20:40] it, we’ll think about it. If you don’t get it, we’ll draw a line, move on. Nothing lost because I had [00:20:45] no expectation to do it because I’m not the right candidate and well, the right CV. Um, [00:20:50] so when I applied, I got the interview. Interview [00:20:55] went fine. The next day I got an email saying, you’ve [00:21:00] been very successful in the interview. We offer you a place on this course. This is March [00:21:05] 2016. Starting in September. I came, I told Zara, [00:21:10] I told my wife and she was like, well, she goes, well, you’re gonna have to do it, aren’t you? I was like, [00:21:15] what do you mean? I said, Zara, this is not a small amount of money we’ve invested. [00:21:20] We bought a house a few years prior to that. We’ve got a practice. All the money is tied up. [00:21:25] You know, we’ve got kids, we’ve got. How’s this going to happen? I haven’t got 60 grand, [00:21:30] you know, just sat there in my account to go and do this. And she was [00:21:35] like, she looked around and we sat in the house at this time, we sat in the front living room and she looked around and she goes, [00:21:40] this is just bricks and mortar. I was like, what? She [00:21:45] goes, we’re selling the house. I was like, Zara, do you understand what [00:21:50] you’re saying?

Payman Langroudi: Do you have children?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I had two children. I had a four year old daughter and a two year old boy [00:21:55] at the time.

Payman Langroudi: What a cool chick, man.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. She’s legend, absolute legend. So she [00:22:00] said to me, she goes just the way she did it. I remember it vividly. I’ll never forget it. We were sitting in the front room. The kids [00:22:05] were playing around. She goes, this is this is bricks and mortar. She goes, we’ll get rid of this. She goes, what I [00:22:10] don’t want to do is work more to support the house. I’d [00:22:15] rather go into a smaller property. My kids are very young at the moment. I’ll focus on the practice. I’ll do a little bit of work, but focus [00:22:20] on bringing up the kids. You go and do what you need to do. She goes because she [00:22:25] goes, we will. We can buy a house again in the future. She goes. They come [00:22:30] and they go. People upgrade all the time. You know, they move house all the time. She goes, this is setting [00:22:35] us up for the future and getting you to do what you want, [00:22:40] and you’ll be in the happiest place. Because although I like general dentistry, [00:22:45] um, I found it quite challenging, but [00:22:50] it suited me. So what? I couldn’t believe it. And I said, are you serious? So she she [00:22:55] started the process.

Payman Langroudi: She’s a wise person, but very.

Afzal Haque: Wise.

Payman Langroudi: Person. Go into that. Why? Why was [00:23:00] general dentistry challenging? And endo so peaceful. Like what was it? So what is it about endo? [00:23:05]

Afzal Haque: I just find it very relaxing. I find it very relaxing. I find [00:23:10] the fact that you’re treating disease the challenge, and I like that. [00:23:15] Um, I’m not saying the other parts of dentistry aren’t aren’t challenging.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not a salesman?

Afzal Haque: No, [00:23:20] not at all. Not at all. I like treating disease.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the best thing about endo. There’s no selling.

Afzal Haque: There’s no selling. No [00:23:25] selling whatsoever. It’s already sold. Um, and you just got to, when it comes to [00:23:30] me, literally in the most, most respect, I am the end of the line. Either [00:23:35] it’s going to work or it’s not going to work. And the patients really, really trust us. [00:23:40] So I found dentistry. I think dental is much harder than being a specialist. I think being a specialist [00:23:45] is actually very, very easy. My job now is brilliant. Um, general [00:23:50] dentists, you’ve got 15, 20 patients, 30, 40 patients depending on where you work, 40 [00:23:55] different personalities, 40 different problems.

Payman Langroudi: 40 different hellos and goodbyes and.

Afzal Haque: 40 different. [00:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Solutions that.

Afzal Haque: You got to come up with on the spot. And I think it’s actually my wife do this and I think she’s great. I think [00:24:05] your job is actually harder than mine. It really is. And a lot of my colleagues [00:24:10] and, and people say to me, oh, it’s all right for you now because you only see [00:24:15] three, four patients a day. I said, it’s all right now, but the journey is the problem. It’s the biggest [00:24:20] challenge of the journey. So that’s why I found it challenging. It’s not that I couldn’t do it, and I [00:24:25] do miss aspects of general dentistry. Ten years I did it, I did the NHS, did the uda’s, took [00:24:30] the teeth out, immediate dentures, everything, all the composite stuff. Um, [00:24:35] but I found my niche there. I thought rubber dams on, I can get on with it. It’s nice and relaxing. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s just get to the but the your in terms of your schedule. Yeah, yeah. How many days a [00:24:45] week are you seeing? Four patients a day.

Afzal Haque: So probably about three days. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the others.

Afzal Haque: The others the one day [00:24:50] a week I work as a senior lecturer at a university in Lancashire. Yeah. Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Formally.

Afzal Haque: Uclan. [00:24:55] Yeah. Yeah. So I teach the they’ve just um started a new specialist [00:25:00] training programme um from, from this last September and it’s a doctorate um indent [00:25:05] where they will go on to become hopefully specialists in endodontics. [00:25:10] So I’m teaching them one day a week.

Payman Langroudi: And did you have anything to do with that syllabus.

Afzal Haque: Oh The [00:25:15] syllabus is all done with a lady called Shalini. She’s lovely. [00:25:20] She qualified at Kings specialist Endodontist. So she invited me to come and join [00:25:25] the team and it’s been brilliant. So I do that one day a week. I love teaching. Teaching is [00:25:30] my.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Afzal Haque: Man, I love it. It’s nice the way I think about teaching. My father’s a teacher [00:25:35] and he always said to me, he goes, if you can explain something to somebody, means that you’ve understood [00:25:40] it. Yeah. And and you know what you’re talking about. So that’s how I feel is like, if I can, if my [00:25:45] students can understand where I’m coming from, understand the concepts I’m trying [00:25:50] to, um, show them and, and they implement it, then job [00:25:55] done, job done. And it’s a great, it’s a great day. Um, so yeah, so that’s what I do on a Tuesday, [00:26:00] on a Friday I have, um, it’s officially a day off, but I use it as an [00:26:05] overspill day. So if I need some patients that need to be seen sooner and they can’t wait. [00:26:10] So I try and have a, um, a two week turnaround from referral to seeing [00:26:15] the patient. And if that’s getting busier, which it which it can do, it depends on the season. I’ll throw [00:26:20] in a Friday. Um, I also do a little bit of um. Work [00:26:25] for the CQC as well. So I’m not the inspector but I’m the guy [00:26:30] that goes along with the inspector. So that’s a new role that I took over. Um, and I do that ad [00:26:35] hoc as and when they may need me. So having the odd day here and there.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Do you [00:26:40] have to get trained to do that?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. You do. So we as a practice got inspected about two and a half, three years ago now. And [00:26:45] um, the inspections now are so much better than they were when we first got inspected. So when [00:26:50] we took over the practice in 2013, literally week eight got a phone call. Right. We’re coming to inspect you [00:26:55] like we’ve just started, you know, what is all this all about? We’re in the middle of doing some building work as well. The [00:27:00] person that came was like an ex-banker and they were more interested on in the fact that, you know, [00:27:05] we couldn’t, you know, get rid of the dust as quick as it settled because we were having building works. We’re having [00:27:10] building work. Didn’t get that. Um, but it went fine. But this time was a proper, [00:27:15] you know, detailed inspection. And we used it as an opportunity to show off, not [00:27:20] as a we didn’t look at it as this is not going to be, um, you know, this [00:27:25] is gonna be bad. So my wife, um, she’s dead positive, dead positive, proper trooper. [00:27:30] She said to her staff, um, said to all of us and said, are we, are we gonna, um, [00:27:35] just pass this or are we, are we going or are we going to smash this? You’ve got two options.

Afzal Haque: I’m [00:27:40] going to go for smashing. We’re gonna smash it. And that’s the mentality [00:27:45] that we had. It was a lovely day and it went really well. So I, I thought to myself, [00:27:50] if this opportunity ever comes up, I’ll give it a go. Because when you’re on your own practice, it’s good to keep up with what’s going [00:27:55] on. It’s good to see what other people are doing. You learn from them. So it came up, I think there [00:28:00] was a there was a job of about 15, what they call s spars, which is specialist advisers, [00:28:05] um in the country. And I applied, I got interviewed. [00:28:10] I went. I got through it. They offered it me and the training for it. So it’s good we do it every so [00:28:15] probably do maybe 1 or 2 a month if I’m if I’m lucky. Um, but it’s nice. It’s [00:28:20] a nice little thing to do and keep up to date with the regulations. So nothing scary at all.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:28:25] the endo itself. Yeah. How much of it is from the referral, from the practice [00:28:30] and how much of it is referred from outside the practice?

Afzal Haque: I’ll be honest, 95% of my work is external. Comes from outside the practice. [00:28:35] Yeah, I get very little from my own practice. I will get some cases, but I actually did an audit [00:28:40] about this last year and I got about about 95% of my patients I saw were were [00:28:45] external referrals. So I’m heavily reliant on external referrals.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that life of being [00:28:50] a referral dentist. Your customer in a way is the general [00:28:55] dentist rather than the patient. The patient comes in under the rubber.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:29:00] know there’s a general shortage of endodontists. Yeah. Is that the case? Is it?

Afzal Haque: Well um. [00:29:05] Specialists. Yes. Yeah. So registered specialists, I specialist. I don’t think there’s. Last time I looked there’s about 350 [00:29:10] registered.

Payman Langroudi: In the whole country.

Afzal Haque: The whole country. Um, having said that, mono [00:29:15] spec even less. A lot of those people who have got specialist title in endodontics are [00:29:20] restorative consultants. So they’re on all the lists. Uh, or they may have done restorative training [00:29:25] and they’re on prosto and they’re on endo. So the actual pure mono spec is, I don’t think there’s that many. [00:29:30] Um, but because of simply endo, because of uclan and other courses, there are a lot of [00:29:35] dentists who are, who are doing endo, who have got special interests. It’s essentially what I was essentially what [00:29:40] I was. Um, so, so it’s not as, um, what’s the [00:29:45] word I’m looking for now? It’s not as exclusive as it used to be. Um, so you’ve got [00:29:50] to work for your referrals. There’s got to be something special about it.

Payman Langroudi: So what I want to know outside of the clinical.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. [00:29:55]

Payman Langroudi: What do you, what do you if someone wants to be any referral. Referral. [00:30:00] Yeah. Dentist. What are what are tips tricks things that yeah. [00:30:05] Things that things that you should be aware of.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, I guess, am I right that your day teaching [00:30:10] helps bring in some referrals?

Afzal Haque: So my day teaching is I’m, I’m teaching postgraduates, so I’m [00:30:15] teaching my competition. That’s essentially what I’m teaching. But the reason why I do that is because.

Payman Langroudi: Just [00:30:20] to be on top.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, because a lot of stuff that gets referred to the hospital is stuff that generally doesn’t happen [00:30:25] in practice. So it’s good to know and be at the forefront of the, of the knowledge and the research. [00:30:30] But yeah, going back to, um, how, how you.

Payman Langroudi: How you find new referring dentists.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So word [00:30:35] of mouth.

Afzal Haque: So I’ve done a few, a few webinars. I do a few. So I’m keeping [00:30:40] in leader for oxidant as I use their, their files agenda. I’ve been using them for last [00:30:45] 2 or 3 years. I’ve used everything, but these are the ones I click with. So I’ve created a relationship with them [00:30:50] and through them I’ve done a few webinars that gets me the odd person.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do that on purpose or did they find [00:30:55] you?

Afzal Haque: So they found me. So, um, they had a rep who was actually Manchester based, and I get [00:31:00] lots of reps that come in and say, oh, do you want to use that? I use everyone’s file because I give everyone a chance. Um, [00:31:05] you don’t know what you don’t know. And there may be something that comes up that that is absolutely amazing. So I’ve [00:31:10] used every system, some systems I gel with, some systems I’ve not gel with and their [00:31:15] system I did gel with. So we created a relationship. Um, [00:31:20] I use them now exclusively. Um, and I, when I do my teaching, I do [00:31:25] teach their system, but other systems are just whatever works for you [00:31:30] is essentially the, the answer to that. But, um, through them, I’ve managed to do a few webinars [00:31:35] and that helps get some interest. Yeah. I’ve done a few, um, webinars [00:31:40] for PhDs as well about career, uh, pathway, like how one has become [00:31:45] an endodontist that’s really helped because that creates interest, but also people [00:31:50] want to come and shadow. So that’s a lot, a lot of things that, um, now [00:31:55] nowadays I’m getting a lot of people coming to shadow. So they’re saying, oh, can we come and watch you? So they’ll spend a whole day [00:32:00] with me. Um, and that really helps because they’ll do endo themselves a little bit better. But then they’ll, it’ll [00:32:05] help them recognise the cases that they feel is beyond them. And a lot of it is about assessment and just knowing [00:32:10] what I can do and what, what the other guy, what, what could be referred [00:32:15] because you should be doing it. In all reality, all dentists are trained to do it, so [00:32:20] they should be doing it. But the um, the clever ones are the ones who can recognise. [00:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Which cases.

Afzal Haque: Which cases is the one I should be taking on. And sometimes we [00:32:30] just get dentists just phoning me up. So I’m going to treat this case today. Um, if you’ve got [00:32:35] any advice for me and I’d be happy to spend the time with them. Um, and if they, they’ll ask me, [00:32:40] some of them will ask me, should I be doing this? And I’ll just go into a bit more detail and find out, you [00:32:45] know, how much they’ve done, what they’re comfortable with. And then through that, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll work out whether [00:32:50] it’s right for them or not. So yeah. And as soon as I’ve got a new referral, it’s creating [00:32:55] a good relationship with them, like giving them a call, um, have a chat with them. Um. Try [00:33:00] and see the patient quickly and try and get the, the the correspondence [00:33:05] out quickly. And if there’s any issues have free rein range for them [00:33:10] to come and speak to you. I think that’s what builds up, builds up good relationships. You know, we send everybody a little [00:33:15] gift over the over the Christmas and New Year. That always helps. But it’s relationships. [00:33:20] I think when the patients come in, um, from the referring dentist, I think [00:33:25] one of the good things is, is I always like to big up their dentist.

Afzal Haque: And [00:33:30] because I get most, most happen to so many referring dentists, [00:33:35] why can’t my dentist do this? Why have I got to pay you £1,000? And [00:33:40] my dentist does root canal for £75? And why have I got [00:33:45] to pay you? So part of the conversation is the spiel. Yeah. The part of [00:33:50] the conversation is, well, you don’t realise how lucky you are to have that dentist because they’ve spotted [00:33:55] something that is beyond what what they feel comfortable doing [00:34:00] and should they should. Should they have done that? You’d be in a worse off position. So, you know, [00:34:05] I agree. You’ve got to pay to come and see me, but you should be congratulating your dentist because I am. And [00:34:10] they turn around and go, oh wow. And when you show them the radiograph showed them [00:34:15] the extreme curvatures or calcification, you know, point it out and explain [00:34:20] I use a microscope, etc., etc. that that really helps. And I think they go back to because we [00:34:25] have a policy, we don’t, because I’ve got a general practice attached to my referral practice. We don’t take any patients on that. Come [00:34:30] on. That’s that’s a rule.

Payman Langroudi: And you send them back with the only sold no.

Afzal Haque: Yes, 100% [00:34:35] Cuspal coverage. Um, will be sold. Uh, they’ll go back with a course as [00:34:40] little the dentist needs to do. All they do is prep the tooth. That’s my philosophy. Do as much as I [00:34:45] can to help that help the dentist. Uh, and they’ll be getting a crown. Um, [00:34:50] so that is really important to have that relationship to make sure they get something out of it as well. Otherwise you’re not going [00:34:55] to have any anyone referring, but.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want education days at the practice as [00:35:00] well?

Afzal Haque: So have done. Yeah. So I’ve done a few um evening study clubs. So um [00:35:05] we get, we get opted in to help us a little bit and then they, they will help me get [00:35:10] um, all the, all the, you know, flyers out etc. and we, we, we [00:35:15] invite about 10 to 10, ten delegates in and we’ll do, we’ll talk about access [00:35:20] or we’ll talk about some diagnosis, something quite simple that they can go away and, and utilise [00:35:25] the next day and we’ll have a little hands on session as well.

Payman Langroudi: So. And are there some dentists that refer all their endo to you.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [00:35:30] there are a few.

Payman Langroudi: Just there are a few.

Afzal Haque: So, so there’s some dentists who are excellent [00:35:35] implant dentists. Yeah. So they still do general dentistry, but they will do majority of their [00:35:40] expertise work is implants. So when they’re taking these scans they may find few lesions here [00:35:45] and there. And I’m finding implant dentists um are very good [00:35:50] at kind of wanting to save teeth. They’re not so much wanting to place the implant in unless it’s necessary. [00:35:55] So they will refer those cases. So I love those dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Five years [00:36:00] out to start enlightened. Yeah. And then when I came back, everyone was on rotary. Yeah [00:36:05] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I had never done rotary. Yeah yeah yeah. So when I came back I said I’m not gonna do any more. But [00:36:10] it’s one of the features of referral practice that you’ve got. [00:36:15] I don’t know how many of those like 4 or 5 people like that who have too much power [00:36:20] over you because all it takes is for a couple of them to drop [00:36:25] off, whether they sell their practice.

Afzal Haque: Or they move somewhere, move somewhere. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s [00:36:30] a major effect on your business.

Afzal Haque: It does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And I was surprised to learn that, you know, even [00:36:35] the super famous guys in all specialities have got [00:36:40] a churn rate. I mean, there’s a there’s a rate of people constantly dropping, dropping off.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to constantly [00:36:45] be putting them in. So that’s why.

Afzal Haque: It’s so important to keep doing these things, keep inviting people into the [00:36:50] practice. Because you’re right, either they retire.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: Or they go or they do [00:36:55] or they leave NHS practice. Yeah. And they go to private practice and they start doing a bit more themselves. Found that happened [00:37:00] in Covid a lot because the private industry went like that. Yeah, yeah. So everyone [00:37:05] was doing their own endo.

Payman Langroudi: It kind of woke people up.

Afzal Haque: And everyone upskilled everyone upskilled, [00:37:10] which is great, which is great for the, for individuals and, and dentists as a whole. But I [00:37:15] noticed at that time referrals reduced a lot because um, people [00:37:20] were doing their own. And then the cases you would get were all the, the challenging cases because they’ve not gone well [00:37:25] or there’s a problem that’s happened. Yeah. Um, I think that’s levelled out a bit now because now NHS has [00:37:30] gone back to normal and people are back on the um doing their udas. So yeah, you’re right. So it’s [00:37:35] constantly having to, you know, be out there and.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re still on the business [00:37:40] side.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you charge the same amount for all teeth. You charge [00:37:45] one for back teeth, one for front.

Afzal Haque: So so I’ve kept it very simple. So I know a lot of my colleagues [00:37:50] and friends, they will have an anterior to posterior tooth at one visit fee or two visit fee. So I have [00:37:55] essentially three fees. Fee number one is consultation fee. And I [00:38:00] make sure I consult everybody, as many people as I can. And people ask [00:38:05] me, why do I need to do that? And the reason I do that, because I think it’s [00:38:10] so good to build that rapport with that patient. Yeah it does. You do lose time. It’s not as [00:38:15] financially beneficial, but you’ve won that patient. They know exactly [00:38:20] what their problem is. They need to understand it, and they need to understand it at a time where they can process it and not say, hi, how are you? Yeah, [00:38:25] you’ve got this upper left six and he’s doing your dentist. It needs to be done right. Um, my name is Afzal. These [00:38:30] are the risks. Here we go. Here’s the local get started. That works for a lot of people. And I get that for me doesn’t [00:38:35] I like the, um, the human touch where I’m gonna get to know them, find out [00:38:40] a bit about them.

Afzal Haque: So I spend about 30 minutes to do that. And once they’ve signed [00:38:45] up, the next fee is the treatment fee. So it doesn’t matter whether it’s a front tooth or a back tooth, a primary [00:38:50] treatment or a retreatment. I charge the same fee. And my philosophy behind that is because nothing [00:38:55] that comes to me is going to be easy. So a front tooth is never going to be an easy, uh, [00:39:00] an easy endo or a primo is never gonna be easy. And it’s always going to be a calcified tooth. It’s going [00:39:05] to be strategically very important. It’s going to have some issue. So just to keep it easy, [00:39:10] one fee and the last fee if we do surgical endodontics. And that’s [00:39:15] one thing. So I that’s how I keep it. I don’t there may be some [00:39:20] caveats as well. Like, for example, if they need a post and that dentist asked me, then there might be a little bit here and there, but if they’re [00:39:25] paying close to £1,000, an extra 50, £60 is not going to break the bank for them. So I’ve kept [00:39:30] it very simple. So the Referrers know, three fees, consultation fee, treatment fee and surgery. [00:39:35]

Payman Langroudi: The restorative build up I built that.

Afzal Haque: Can be fee. I built it into the [00:39:40] fee.

Payman Langroudi: But sometimes that’s a big.

Afzal Haque: It can be a.

Payman Langroudi: Deal or no deal at all.

Afzal Haque: The [00:39:45] way I look at it, it’s like udas.

Payman Langroudi: Swings and roundabouts.

Afzal Haque: Swings and roundabouts. Yeah, you’ll get one. That’s very simple. I’ll do in ten minutes [00:39:50] and one I will know I have to spend a bit longer with. So that’s what the consultation is very important.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:39:55] it is you who does that. So deep marginalisation the whole thing.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I’ll do it as much as I can. [00:40:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cutting gum, putting them.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So I will assess that at the consultation. So [00:40:05] if I looked at.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Afzal Haque: It’s a big deal restoration. So I’ll book my time accordingly. Yeah. So I [00:40:10] might book, you know, for, for the first. So I’ll say the first visit, I might spend 90 minutes. [00:40:15] But the second visit, you know, I might not, I might get to the end or done or majority done [00:40:20] on second visit. I just need time to operate and build up the tooth. So I might not have to book as long or might be the opposite [00:40:25] where I’m after second visit might be longer because I’ve got to control the gingiva. I’ve got to control the bleeding, [00:40:30] all that. So I’ve built that into the fee. Um, I just want referrers to find it easy [00:40:35] to refer. And so I can tell the patients is this and this that’s it. [00:40:40]

Payman Langroudi: And how much of your day is spent filling out like the communication back to the dentist. [00:40:45] So every day you.

Afzal Haque: Have to do everything. But. But I’ve started to use AI.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:40:50] you?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah. So I use, um, a program called Heidi and it’s, I think it’s [00:40:55] Australian originally designed for medics. But once you play with it, [00:41:00] start, start playing with it. It’s fantastic at writing letters. So I can just dictate into it [00:41:05] and it will devise a letter. And before that patient has left the building, the letters done. [00:41:10] Oh, so I’ve got a very good team. That’s one thing I’ve got that I’m very lucky. And [00:41:15] it’s taken us years to get this, uh, again, with the driving force, she makes sure my [00:41:20] life is as easy as possible because it’s our reputation, it’s referrers that we want [00:41:25] to be happy and we want it all to go smoothly. So she’s recruited the best nurses [00:41:30] to work with me, to be able to make sure that journey is is so smooth from [00:41:35] phone call to discharge. That whole journey has to be bang [00:41:40] on. So even when I’m not there, like I’m, I’m not there today, but we may have an endodontic [00:41:45] emergency or somebody that’s been niggling the tooth niggling the.

Payman Langroudi: Post.

Afzal Haque: Op. [00:41:50] Post op. Yeah. Yeah. Although I’ve mentioned it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: But we will. Oh. Everyone gets a courtesy [00:41:55] call. So the staff are on it. And if there’s any problems, they are so well equipped to deal [00:42:00] with that problem that generally we won’t need to see that patient again or we, you know, [00:42:05] they will reassure them and we can sort them out at some point. So having the team, [00:42:10] my work doesn’t become, um, half as good as it can be without the staff. [00:42:15] Yeah, sure. Absolutely. They are like my my left arm, for [00:42:20] example.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the highest earner.

Afzal Haque: In the practice? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s weird, man, because you almost [00:42:25] know how much you’re going to earn every day. There’s no.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not much variation.

Afzal Haque: There’s not much variation. There [00:42:30] will be the odd one where you open up the tooth and there’s a big crack in it. Yeah. And then you’re like, well, I booked out 90 minutes. [00:42:35] And I’m not only going to get a proportion of the fee, but that’s okay. That again is [00:42:40] swings and roundabouts. You can’t plan for these things. Sometimes it’s very obvious before you even start, but, [00:42:45] um. Oh, am I doing what’s called an investigation? So the patient knows that at this point we might [00:42:50] stop. So might book a shorter appointment and the fees set. So yeah, it can be. [00:42:55] But the hardest thing is just getting that flow of referrals in regularly. And, and [00:43:00] that takes time. So I’ve been on my own for about since 2022. [00:43:05] So I worked a little bit. I, I’ve been on my own for a long time to [00:43:10] be fair, but I really focussed on my own personal referrals from about I just after Covid, [00:43:15] just after Covid. So, um, yeah, but it’s going well, it’s going well.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the kind of goal here? Is [00:43:20] the goal that eventually you’ll have another endodontist, right? Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So, so so I in an ideal world, [00:43:25] I don’t ever want to retire. I mean, I’m saying that at the moment, but I’m [00:43:30] 43, 43. I love my work. Since I’ve become an endodontist, [00:43:35] going to work is just not a problem. I just go, it’s fine. I think with any referral [00:43:40] stuff, You kind of know what’s going, especially with, you know, you know what you’re doing before the patients even [00:43:45] come in and you’ve seen the radiograph, you kind of know what’s going on. You’ve just got to gel with the patient and you get on with [00:43:50] it. So the goal is to have four, five, six days worth [00:43:55] of endodontics. Um at the moment I’ve got about three days and that’s plenty for me. But as [00:44:00] soon as we start moving to day four and day five, I’d love to get a, a colleague to [00:44:05] work with me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and how does it work associate wise? Is it like 5050? [00:44:10]

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. So I also, um, do a day, um, a couple of [00:44:15] days a month for my friend who’s, who’s got a practice about 20 miles from where we live. He’s [00:44:20] actually my implant surgeon. So he’s been working for me for about 7 or 8 years. But when he bought his practice [00:44:25] about three years ago, he asked me, would I come over there? So I have an associate agreement with him and it’s [00:44:30] a 50%. And that is I think that’s fair. That’s absolutely fair. I wouldn’t want any more. [00:44:35] I think anything less is is is 50%. It’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Bang on. As [00:44:40] a specialist, you deserve 50%.

Afzal Haque: I think so. I think so. Um, I mean, you hear lots of [00:44:45] things about percentages, but I always say to new graduates, who are they ask me. [00:44:50] Oh, well, they’re giving me 40% or 35%. I said, don’t focus on percentages because [00:44:55] 50, 40% of a big number is better than 50% of a small number. And, you know, look at where [00:45:00] you are, what you’re going to get out of that practice is any mentorship, anyone you can, you can learn from, [00:45:05] um, things that money won’t, won’t buy. Um, and look at your progression. [00:45:10] So I think 50% is fair. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to endo. It’s funny, I’ve talked endo [00:45:15] more than I’ve talked to anything else on this podcast, but it is advice I give young dentists. Yeah, that [00:45:20] too many people don’t think of endo as a because it was hard. Yeah. Undergrad.

Afzal Haque: Well, [00:45:25] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What they just they just think to themselves, you know, they script themselves and thinking, forget endo [00:45:30] kind of implants too, right? Like surgeries and things. People just don’t like blood. Yeah. But [00:45:35] let’s talk about endo.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is there like a. Firstly, I’m [00:45:40] quite interested in like endo porn for you.

Afzal Haque: There’s [00:45:45] lots of it around.

Payman Langroudi: Like what’s what’s your version of that? Is it like, like, who’s [00:45:50] like an endo hero of yours? And why?

Afzal Haque: Why do you know what? I don’t actually know names, but there’s a lot of American [00:45:55] guys out there that have.

Payman Langroudi: What are they doing? Like, what is it that they’re doing?

Afzal Haque: Is it they’re doing the same [00:46:00] thing as us, but they seem to have all these beautiful looking X-rays. [00:46:05] Uh, very nice. Dense white lines, sharp curves, lovely little puffs at the end [00:46:10] of the routes. They look amazing. There’s another chap in in Dublin. Um, [00:46:15] I forget his name at the moment. He’s on Instagram and his stuff is just brilliant. He’s like very minimally prepped and [00:46:20] this beautiful white lines, you can tell he’s filled the whole anatomy and and [00:46:25] you think, oh, how do they do that? But it’s a, it’s another level that it’s um, yeah. [00:46:30] So, so I can’t remember names.

Payman Langroudi: There’s ninja access. You like that, you know.

Afzal Haque: Well, funny [00:46:35] you should say that gave you a webinar about this last week. And, um, I’m not a big fan of ninja [00:46:40] access because it, it restricts what you can do. It’s great for a photograph and if you [00:46:45] can get it done and it all goes well, all well and good, but there’s more chance of [00:46:50] causing problems by doing that. Now, no one’s saying cut a big hole in it that you know you’ve completely destroyed [00:46:55] the truth. Be conservative, be, you know, follow the principles of endodontics, straight [00:47:00] line access. That’s what we want. We want to be able to see what we’re doing. Why do we want to put extra pressure and [00:47:05] stress on, on our files just so that we can have very, very tiny [00:47:10] access for Instagram, for Instagram? Well, essentially what it is. Yeah, there is a theory and I do agree with it that, you [00:47:15] know, it’s going to be better for the tooth long term if you remove less, but not if you if you can’t get all the bugs out. So [00:47:20] it’s a balancing act, isn’t it? So they look great. I’ve done a few. [00:47:25] And let me tell you, at the end it was a lot harder sweating a lot more. Yeah, [00:47:30] sweating a lot more. And then you have to.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t get your irrigant properly, right? There’s things [00:47:35] like that.

Afzal Haque: Things, things like that make a big difference. So endo is not just the files. 50% of it is [00:47:40] is the irrigation and the activation. And if you’ve got very tiny access, how are you going to activate [00:47:45] that irrigant. So you’ve got to ask yourself all these questions.

Payman Langroudi: And do you guys like do you would [00:47:50] do you and Sanj and um, Rob and [00:47:55] Amal do like the same thing? So is there, is there [00:48:00] like one thing you do differently to know?

Afzal Haque: So I would say Amar, Rob and myself, because we’ve all been trained [00:48:05] in the same institution. We’re all a Liverpool grads. Post-grads we probably do something very, very similar. Uh, [00:48:10] and we all talk to each other. We’ve got little a little endo group. It’s more like, you know, PTSD, [00:48:15] DSC, endo group. You know, we still survived like [00:48:20] a kind of group.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a barrel of laughs.

Afzal Haque: A barrel of laughs.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So there’s always someone asking about a [00:48:25] sealer or something silly like that. And it’s like, it’s like anyway. Um, so, but Rob and I, [00:48:30] and I, and I, we, we will discuss cases. So we’ve got a very similar sort of way of working. Um [00:48:35] Sanjay I would I have watched him work. I mean, we’re not too dissimilar to him. [00:48:40] The difference is he’s been doing it a lot longer than us. Um, his techniques I’ve [00:48:45] adapted the way I work by watching him. So I watched, you know, um, I’d say growing up, but yeah, [00:48:50] growing up as an endodontist, um, him and there was a, a lovely chap who sadly [00:48:55] passed away called Mark Hunter. He was a very kind and gentle endodontist in [00:49:00] South Manchester. Um, I think he actually taught Sanjay when Sandra was doing his, [00:49:05] his endo training and I watched both of them. And what I learnt was [00:49:10] lovely patient management and the holistic approach from Mark Sanjay [00:49:15] showed me that as well. But he also showed me how to be efficient with endodontics. And I think I’ve adapted [00:49:20] a lot of his efficiency into my daily practice. So it’s because at the end of the day, you’ve got to get it done. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: You can do it faster.

Afzal Haque: You can do it a lot faster. Yeah. Um, so Mark would take, uh, two visits, [00:49:30] pretty much every case, three hours at a time, potentially. Um, which is great. [00:49:35] And that worked for him and that was perfect for him. Sandra’s a lot quicker, a lot more single visit [00:49:40] treatment, um, and getting things done within 90 minutes. Um, so that’s what I learned [00:49:45] from him how to be very efficient. And it’s great having the two contrasts because you can [00:49:50] pick up so much from both. Uh, sandwich is extremely efficient. Uh, and [00:49:55] Mark was, um, he took his time, but I learned that of, you [00:50:00] know, patient care and all that kind of thing. Not saying that sandwich can’t do that. It’s just different. [00:50:05] Yeah. Um, but then you take aspects of both and put it into your practice saying, well, this is [00:50:10] why I do a consultation. So my, um, philosophy of consultation came from [00:50:15] Mark. He consulted everybody where Sandra will do some and not and not others. Um, and that’s [00:50:20] fine, but that’s how I learned. So it’s brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Um have you done any training in the US [00:50:25] or. No.

Afzal Haque: That’s something I would love to do. Um, so they run courses [00:50:30] in I think in the US, but they take you to South America somewhere weird, Nicaragua [00:50:35] or something like that. And it’s more surgical stuff. And that’s where I want [00:50:40] to really up my game because I do surgery. Um, but the way the Americans do it is, [00:50:45] is a lot different to how we do it. They’re very efficient. It’s something that is part of their daily practice. We’ll [00:50:50] do, uh, maybe the odd 1 or 2 a month, um, maybe a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: But to me, yeah.

Afzal Haque: To [00:50:55] me, but for them, it’s a regular part of the practice. So yeah, if I, if I’m [00:51:00] to do more, I’d love to go America.

Payman Langroudi: Is Apicectomy is less apicectomy happening these [00:51:05] days because more like more and those got better. Yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: There is that as well. But there’s always [00:51:10] going to be, uh, an element of it. So we get a lot of cases that are sent to us by very good general dentists [00:51:15] who have done everything under correct protocols, use all the right stuff. And then you think, well, [00:51:20] if they’ve done it so well, you know, what am I actually going to do to, to improve this? It’s, you know, [00:51:25] the X-rays, the root fillings right to the end of the root. Everything looks great. So then having that surgical [00:51:30] skill is quite important because if you can’t retreat it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nowhere.

Afzal Haque: Else to go. There’s nowhere else to [00:51:35] go. And you know, patient may save it, save some money and you won’t need an implant. You might [00:51:40] get a few more years out of the out of the tooth. So I think it’s a great skill to have, which we do do it. But [00:51:45] in America, they’re very good at doing posterior teeth and things like that. So it’s a bit [00:51:50] more kind of um, it’s a bit more speciality I suppose there um within endodontists.

Payman Langroudi: Something about [00:51:55] endo that most generalists get wrong.

Afzal Haque: I think it’s diagnosis. I think tooth [00:52:00] is TTP it needs endo. Um tooth is sensitive [00:52:05] while I’m doing a crown, a crown prep. Um, can you do endo. It’s [00:52:10] TTP is not a diagnosis for endodontics. It’s, it’s part of the diagnosis. [00:52:15] It might tell you that that tooth then.

Payman Langroudi: Filling.

Afzal Haque: High filling or um, [00:52:20] bruxism, something like that. Yeah. They may have had a little bit of local trauma. Um But [00:52:25] that in itself is not a reason to do endo. Um, I find a lot of general dentists that do [00:52:30] refer to me, um, they’ve learned over the time because I tell them how [00:52:35] to do it, you know, do simple things like cold testing, just do the cold test and do that tooth and do another tooth and do it from [00:52:40] different parts on the tooth, because sometimes they’ll do it too high on the tooth and we should be doing [00:52:45] it a little bit lower down towards the gingival margin, and then you’ll get a bit of a better response. Um, things [00:52:50] like that is quite important. It’s getting the diagnosis right.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the point. You said.

Afzal Haque: That. Yeah. [00:52:55] I find that because and also um pain management.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:53:00]

Afzal Haque: It’s hard to get pulpitis tooth numb. And it’s very [00:53:05] easy for us because by the time it comes to us, it’s become necrotic. So I find that, you know, that [00:53:10] is a skill to have. And it’s just being a little bit more, um, aware of the anatomy [00:53:15] and, and just going for it really and just trying to get that patient out of pain. Um. [00:53:20] Reducing the amount of antibiotics used if possible. [00:53:25] Because antibiotics is not the first line. We need to open up these teeth. Release the [00:53:30] pressure. Um, the other thing I find um, should be better taught is [00:53:35] how to deal with emergencies. Um, we don’t need to put files in teeth. Oh no. [00:53:40] So if you’ve got pulpitis tooth, they literally need to open up the pulp chamber, release the pressure. [00:53:45] And essentially, um, if they can do under a rubber dam, brilliant. A little bit of hypochlorite to, [00:53:50] to wash the coronal pulp and just medicate that the minute they put files in the.

Payman Langroudi: Medicate it with.

Afzal Haque: With, [00:53:55] with like leather mix or something like that. Yes. And like an anti-inflammatory steroid, the minute they put files [00:54:00] in the tooth. Now my.

Payman Langroudi: Complicated.

Afzal Haque: To you might complicate it, but the thing is they’ve also got to [00:54:05] remember where did all the bugs live? They live at the top of the tooth. So so if you’re putting a file down [00:54:10] and if you’ve got no intention at that appointment to do the endo, then you’re literally pushing the bugs from the top [00:54:15] to the bottom. And what happens after that? They have patients get a post-operative flare up. And [00:54:20] that’s not a great practice builder.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Afzal Haque: I came to you in pain and I’m worse pain now. [00:54:25] Some cases will be the exception and there will be ones that we won’t get it right. But [00:54:30] I try and teach um general dentists is is just get the coronal pulp out. Medicate [00:54:35] it, dress it, bring them back another day when you’re ready to do the endodontics or refer it on. Also [00:54:40] alleging the file goes into the tooth can’t get to the apex and keep [00:54:45] tapping tapping tapping. And it’s essentially alleged it. So when it comes to us, it’s becomes much more difficult case. [00:54:50] So the way.

Payman Langroudi: You do about it actually.

Afzal Haque: What to do about the ledge, you have to manage it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:54:55] you you have to know it’s there.

Afzal Haque: Well, you can’t see it on a radiograph. So you feel [00:55:00] it when you go in and you think this file’s not going anywhere. And then you know, it’s been accessed. So you [00:55:05] kind of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You do, you kind of pretend.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. [00:55:10] So so I put little sharp bends on the end of my files. And essentially what I’m trying to [00:55:15] do is walk it down the canal and just see if it, if it just, you know, sits past it and just [00:55:20] catches somewhere. If it catches somewhere, you know, you get that warm feeling inside. I’m going [00:55:25] somewhere and you try and smooth that out. Ledges is probably one of the worst things [00:55:30] that we have to deal with. It’s horrible. It can take it can turn a treatment from an hour [00:55:35] to double it. Um, and I might end up just working on that one canal for that session [00:55:40] because it can be that difficult to, you know, to get past it. Once you’re past it and [00:55:45] you smooth it, you’re back to normal again. But that can be avoided a lot of the time. Um, [00:55:50] especially in emergency appointments, I think we’ve got this philosophy that we stick files in teeth. We don’t [00:55:55] not for pulp teeth. We can just medicate it and and you’ll be surprised. Patients will will [00:56:00] get out of pain once that medication starts to work. And just painkillers, you know, giving [00:56:05] the right post-op advice. Tell them it’s going to be sore for a few days. So the expectation is already [00:56:10] there. Um, so they’ll deal with it. And patients tend to tend to not bother you if. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: Look, I know it depends on the dentist. Should generalists ever do re [00:56:20] endo.

Afzal Haque: If they’ve got the skill set for it? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It depends.

Afzal Haque: It depends on the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:25] yeah should they not.

Afzal Haque: I would say re endo is probably the majority of my work [00:56:30] is re endo. Yeah. Re endo um resorption these sort of cases [00:56:35] calcified canal.

Payman Langroudi: So you look at you look at the first day you kind of say I can see [00:56:40] that’s not a very good endo sometimes. Yeah. Other times you don’t.

Afzal Haque: Other times there’s a brilliant endo. [00:56:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but but the quality of endo is less is not just the X-ray is it 100%. [00:56:50] It could be the way they used irrigant. It could be the salivary.

Afzal Haque: Absolutely. You’ve hit the nail [00:56:55] on the head. So just because it’s a nice, beautiful line, it could have been washed with water. Yeah. Or [00:57:00] nothing. So you’ve got to take into mind. So these are the questions that I kind of will ask the patient. So if it’s [00:57:05] a recent endo they will generally remember if they’ve had rubber dam smell bleach or even tasted it. [00:57:10] Um, but if it’s a really old one, um, then it’s the question is, [00:57:15] AM I going to. Am I going to retreat it now? You’d be surprised if it’s quite [00:57:20] infected. And it’s such. And it looks like a lovely root canal treatment. Sometimes that GP will come out [00:57:25] quite easily because there’s infection around it. Yeah. And it’s not as bad as it looks on the X-ray. So it’s all [00:57:30] about having the right conversation with the patient, you know, giving them the options because not everyone wants to go through surgery. [00:57:35] Yeah. And, and I kind of explained, look, it’s the end of the line here. If we [00:57:40] can do something with this tooth, we will try. And what would you want to do. And [00:57:45] we’ll build in the the fee. So if we on the first visit, if I can’t [00:57:50] remove everything or there’s a problem, we can’t get to length there, the chances are if it’s got a big area on the end of the roots [00:57:55] and I can’t get to the length, it’s not going to heal. So I need surgery or extraction. And then patients [00:58:00] can be quite accepting of that because you’ve given it a go. You’ve explained it all and [00:58:05] they know they’ve got another option. If if um the retreatment doesn’t work. So [00:58:10] there is um it’s all about communication really. It’s like the happiest dentists, [00:58:15] I feel, are the ones who communicate really, really well and the ones who don’t get into trouble. Lots of things can go [00:58:20] wrong, but if you communicated well, generally you don’t have problems. But that’s what experience [00:58:25] is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, it’s so interesting, man, because you could have two dentists, same [00:58:30] treatment, same outcome. Yeah. Two different communications. One, one [00:58:35] patient will adore you and one patient might be suing you.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I [00:58:40] get that. I get people like, oh, do I need to, you know, should I complain to my dentist? Well, no, you [00:58:45] know, that’s the reason why you’re here. So we have to kind of I have to be very careful [00:58:50] with the language that we use with, with patients, because you don’t want to get your dentist [00:58:55] into, into hot water. Um, and some of the treatments may not be great [00:59:00] and it’s just how you project that to the patient. Um, and I explained [00:59:05] that these teeth are difficult. Root canals are very challenging treatment modality that we do. [00:59:10] Very, very difficult. Um. And that’s why you’re here.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:59:15] how come he hasn’t moved on, man? Like, why isn’t there a different filling material than JP?

Afzal Haque: I don’t know. It works. [00:59:20] It’s been working for years, hasn’t it? So filling materials not worked. Sorry, not changed much. But [00:59:25] the sealers have. So initially GP was our main filling [00:59:30] material. Like just got to get that GP everywhere. Yeah. So it was [00:59:35] a GP based obturation. Now we use these calcium silicate [00:59:40] MTA based what we call bioceramics which have really changed the um the [00:59:45] modern endodontics. So now it’s become.

Payman Langroudi: That’s feeling that all the that’s getting [00:59:50] canals.

Afzal Haque: And that’s getting everywhere and it’s almost come full circle. So we call it now a sealer [00:59:55] based Obturation. Whereas the GP is just the carrier. It’s just a carrier that [01:00:00] takes it to the apex. That’s interesting. That’s all it is. And it’s a medium to, [01:00:05] to be able to remove because bioceramics when it sets, it sets rock hard. Trying to retreat [01:00:10] a bioceramic case is very difficult. I’ve had to retreat some of my own that I did make five years ago, um [01:00:15] or longer. And it’s really difficult because it sets rock hard. But that GP [01:00:20] is the pathway to try and get you.

Payman Langroudi: Antibacterial as well.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. It’s antibacterial, it’s high pH. [01:00:25] It’s very much like like.

Payman Langroudi: Gp isn’t is it.

Afzal Haque: No, no GP is like just rubber. Rubber. Got [01:00:30] eugenol in it. Yeah. Um but the GP is, is, is the carrier. So, so [01:00:35] the philosophy is changed now initially 20, 30 years ago if we saw single cones in, [01:00:40] in as root canal fillings. It’s a single cone obturation. It’s a bad job. We’ve come back to [01:00:45] single root. So it’s gone full circle. So the simpler things now and for single [01:00:50] cone obturation is the way to go. And if you’re doing it with a bioceramic, [01:00:55] it’s even better. And that’s how they how they teach it because they say Bioceramic doesn’t, [01:01:00] you know, um, work well with heat. So, you know, the heating system. So just you make sure [01:01:05] you’ve got enough, um, bioceramic in the canal and gently placed your cone. [01:01:10]

Payman Langroudi: Is it radiopaque?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, very much so. Very much. And if you get a little bit out of the apex, although [01:01:15] not ideal, the body deals with it very well. So it’s not as irritant. So like the, um, [01:01:20] the older ones like the eugenol and the calcium hydroxide based um.

Payman Langroudi: Tubli-seal. [01:01:25]

Afzal Haque: Tube seal. Sealapex. Yeah. Um the resin ones like h plus they [01:01:30] can, they’re very, they flow a lot and they, it’s very easy to get it out at the end and it can be cytotoxic, [01:01:35] it can really make the, make it very uncomfortable for the patient. Uh, but it will settle, but it will [01:01:40] settle with the bioceramic. If I get anything out the end, as long as it’s not near any structure like you don’t want in the mental [01:01:45] nerve, you don’t want it, you know, in the sinus too much. Um, it generally will be fine. Um, [01:01:50] and it’s changed endodontics completely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that thing that you must be getting asked about? [01:01:55] Oh, every cancer patient has a endo in their mouth. Yeah, yeah. Conspiracy. [01:02:00]

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I must come up a lot.

Afzal Haque: I’ve had a few people, um, ask me [01:02:05] that question or does it cause cancer? I’m like, no, you know, where’s the evidence? The evidence is poor. [01:02:10] We’ve been doing root canals for years. You know how many patients are dying of cancer due [01:02:15] to the root canals? It’s it’s it’s not what you read on the internet. [01:02:20] And that’s the problem. People are very well informed these days. Yeah. We’ve got ChatGPT. They’ve [01:02:25] got someone found me on ChatGPT. This is how this is how weird it [01:02:30] is. Oh, who who’s a good endodontist in the Manchester region. And my name came up. [01:02:35] I found you on ChatGPT. This is this is what people are using now to, to get their information. And you’ve [01:02:40] got to be very careful of, of what they read. So that’s why I try and tell, try and educate them a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: So you can [01:02:45] you can nlm optimise.

Afzal Haque: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So a couple of dentists contacted me because [01:02:50] we had them in a blog post and the blog post didn’t say so. And [01:02:55] so works in Liverpool.

Afzal Haque: Right.

Payman Langroudi: So can you go into that blog post and change it. Right. So [01:03:00] that when ChatGPT is looking, it knows that I’m a dentist in Liverpool because it really likes third [01:03:05] party, right? Like enlightened thinking about the dentist rather than the dentist talking about himself. [01:03:10]

Afzal Haque: Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, that was that’s new to me. But yeah, it’s just information is just [01:03:15] everywhere. It’s overload, isn’t it? So, um, yeah, you just have to educate [01:03:20] them. Um, but yeah, I remember a few years ago that Netflix movie came out.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t [01:03:25] this all the same thing. Yeah.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Well, that’s what it was all about. Root canals are bad and they cause this cause that [01:03:30] there’s a lot of these.

Payman Langroudi: Are you getting asked all the time?

Afzal Haque: Not now. At the time there were. There was a few people that watch. Oh, did you watch [01:03:35] that movie? To be fair, the people that did come and see me didn’t take much notice of it. Um, but [01:03:40] going speaking to colleagues, you know, a lot, a lot of them have had to deal with people saying, I’m not having [01:03:45] that because it’s, it causes this, this causes that is it.

Payman Langroudi: Every time you take GP out of [01:03:50] a tooth, it’s kind of smelly. Yeah. So there are bacteria.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. [01:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: The idea that there are bacteria hanging out in your in your endo.

Afzal Haque: Absolutely. [01:04:00]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s for real.

Afzal Haque: I make it a point with the patient. So because when you’re taking GP out, there’s [01:04:05] that odour, you know, that endodontic smell, you just know it. Um you smelt it that many [01:04:10] times.

Payman Langroudi: I mean I’m not saying it causes cancer. No, no. But it’s real.

Afzal Haque: It’s real. So I would, I would [01:04:15] I would explain to the patient, I said can you smell that odour there? Like I said, that’s the infection in your [01:04:20] tooth. So this is why why we need to do it. So that builds confidence for the patient I think. Yeah it’s [01:04:25] the right decision. Um but yeah most infected root canals will be like that. Yeah. [01:04:30] They’ll get that odour.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not saying so you don’t think most root [01:04:35] canals.

Afzal Haque: Um infected ones. Yeah. Yeah. Now if I’m removing [01:04:40] GP I’m generally going to be removing for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s got contaminated somehow. Um [01:04:45] so there will be some malodour from it. Yeah. Generally.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:04:50] if I don’t onlay or crown after rct am [01:04:55] I wasting my time with the city.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Or is that old? Is that old information.

Afzal Haque: My doctorate [01:05:00] was on this. Oh yeah. My doctor was on the restoration of root canal treated teeth. And the general consensus [01:05:05] is if it’s if you’ve lost a marginal marginal ridge, um, then that tooth is going to be significantly [01:05:10] weaker than a tooth that hasn’t, uh, and endo with due [01:05:15] to cutting a big hole into the tooth, doing the process of what we do will weaken the tooth further. [01:05:20] So if you’re not going to have comfortable coverage, there’s a higher chance you’re going to get a fracture. Now, some people [01:05:25] might get away with it because their occlusion might be a bit more favourable than others. But as a general rule, on a posterior [01:05:30] tooth, if you’ve lost a marginal ridge, I will be advocating minimal, um, uh, [01:05:35] comfortable coverage. Now that can be with whatever material, but some sort of cuspal [01:05:40] coverage to stop that flexing of, of, of the cusps and causing a fracture. So [01:05:45] yeah, that goes without saying. And that will be discussed at the consultation. So when you go [01:05:50] back to your dentist, because so some people may have heard it but not processed it. So you will need a crown. [01:05:55] So they’ve got to know that because that’s an additional additional cost that they will incur when they’re going [01:06:00] back to their dentist. So I explain how they talked to you about that. Well, I don’t know what they [01:06:05] charge, but this is what they’ll they’ll need to do after it protects what what we do. And [01:06:10] it could range between this and this and generally it’s fine. But yeah, Cuspal coverage. Um, that was my [01:06:15] thing.

Payman Langroudi: And while we’re here internal bleaching.

Afzal Haque: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do?

Afzal Haque: So, um, [01:06:20] I’ve not done many for a while because I generally prepare the teeth for the general dentist to do. But [01:06:25] when I did do it, I used to. Do, you know the inside outside. Yeah. The walking bleach, walking, the walking bleach.

Payman Langroudi: You close [01:06:30] the access.

Afzal Haque: Um, no. So so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Afzal Haque: Open. Is it inside inside. So not walking. Sorry. The inside [01:06:35] outside. Yeah. It’s where you make them a tray and then and they, they um replenish the, um the [01:06:40] gel every so often. It’s interesting you mentioned that I went to a lecture um not [01:06:45] long ago about incidents of resorption in, in teeth [01:06:50] and obviously bleaching came up as one of them. And the, the person giving the [01:06:55] lecture was saying that, um, you know, the walking bleach is probably higher risk [01:07:00] due to the fact that there’s nowhere for the for the bleach to exhale.

Payman Langroudi: Interestingly, I heard the [01:07:05] incidence has gone down a lot.

Afzal Haque: I’m sure it has.

Payman Langroudi: Because we no longer think heating [01:07:10] the thing. Yeah.

Afzal Haque: And also the percentages have gone down as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: Over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I [01:07:15] remember a time you just took a hot instrument into into bleach.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. [01:07:20]

Payman Langroudi: In the access cavity thinking hot bleach is what you want. And it’s that heat that was causing. [01:07:25] Yeah. Um, so I think Chris did a study, not study the [01:07:30] search on, on.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He told me that. Um, but interesting thing, [01:07:35] you know, regression, the best way to handle regression [01:07:40] after internal bleaching is externally. Yeah. Not, not internally. Right. Because [01:07:45] everyone thinks, oh, we’re internal. It’s difficult. You don’t know whether it’s going to regress or not. Yeah. You don’t [01:07:50] even let it regress. You do external one night a month or one night a week or whatever it takes for it [01:07:55] not to regress. Yeah, yeah. With with a tray externally as well.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. No. Um, so [01:08:00] so I get asked, um can you prepare the tooth for internal whitening. So I’ll [01:08:05] make sure the GP has cut the right place. All the barrier is in so the dentist can carry on and do that. But yeah, it’s [01:08:10] a great way. I used to do loads when I was doing my specialist training, so we saw great results. Um, [01:08:15] I mean you correct me if I’m wrong, but the grey, the tooth was, it was a bit more challenging, [01:08:20] but you got some change and it was, it was some of them were remarkable. The way, the way it looked. [01:08:25] I thought what’s happened.

Payman Langroudi: To white.

Afzal Haque: Something something go to white. Yeah. Yeah. And then you’re thinking, well, you’re gonna [01:08:30] have to bleach the rest of them now and not bleach that one. Yeah. So yeah, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What we do actually. We [01:08:35] bleach everything.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. But it’s a great treatment if. And it can work quite well. [01:08:40] So it’s trauma. Yeah. You see a lot trauma.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your gears? Like what gets you angry? [01:08:45] Getting mad about the profession.

Afzal Haque: Oh, gosh. Um, this goes back to [01:08:50] my undergraduate days.

Payman Langroudi: So the teaching, the what you’re saying the [01:08:55] teaching.

Afzal Haque: That’s what really winds me up.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like there’s abuse built into it.

Afzal Haque: It’s a level [01:09:00] of abuse, isn’t it? But but it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, I remember it’s not emotional. It completely [01:09:05] I completely resonated with me when you said what you said, I’m maybe ten years behind [01:09:10] you. Yeah. Like older than you. Yeah. And I remember thinking, [01:09:15] why is this guy being so cruel?

Afzal Haque: Well, that’s, that’s what it was.

Payman Langroudi: But I remember, I remember [01:09:20] that there was this idea that dentistry is tough, and we’re [01:09:25] gonna abuse you to see who can take it and who can’t. It was almost like this excuse [01:09:30] for abuse.

Afzal Haque: Absolutely. And, and looking back on it, I think that nobody nobody [01:09:35] learns from that. Nobody learns from I mean, you’ve got to be constructively, you’ve got to give constructive [01:09:40] criticism, but everything negative is going to bring somebody down. My experience with dental school was I [01:09:45] was the average student, didn’t do anything better than just passed my exam. That’s all I did. And I, and [01:09:50] I never failed an exam, but everything didn’t come, came to me, you know, with some effort. [01:09:55] It’s there was some of my colleagues and friends who just got everything. They just. Yeah, perfect. [01:10:00] But those tutors were, were, were quite harsh on people like us. And they would [01:10:05] say, oh, maybe you should think of another career and things like, you know, things like that. That’s not very helpful when you’re in your third and fourth year. I [01:10:10] remember quite clearly, um, a couple of colleagues, um, on clinic [01:10:15] and they were telling them for a patient, maybe you should think about another career. And I think that is just so not helpful. [01:10:20]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s.

Afzal Haque: Really annoying.

Payman Langroudi: Some people have to decide [01:10:25] age 13. Yeah, they want to be a dentist because of the GCSEs they’re taking. So you’ve [01:10:30] been working at this thing for ten years. Would you like for.

Afzal Haque: Someone.

Payman Langroudi: To tell you that half your life almost at that point?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: And this guy is a minute. Yeah. Yeah. You know, quite eminent, isn’t he? Because he’s [01:10:40] an academic. Yeah. You’re a student. Yeah. To hear that from him, it’s just heartbreaking. [01:10:45]

Afzal Haque: It’s horrible. It was like people taking impressions. It didn’t look good. Pick it up and throw it in the bin. Do it again. Um, [01:10:50] that really annoyed me. So.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:10:55] you were, you were saying that’s why you like teaching? Teaching?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I mean, I can’t change the [01:11:00] world, but I can do my my own little bit. And my philosophy was, I’m never going to let anyone feel [01:11:05] like that. If there’s a problem, we’ll have an open and honest conversation, make it constructive and give them [01:11:10] a plan. It’s a bit like the stuff I do. If the practice is not is not great, you [01:11:15] don’t shut them down, address it, give them an action plan, go back, give them a chance. [01:11:20] And that was my thing. I was like, I cannot, um, teach like this. I have [01:11:25] to use a different approach. And, you know, it was horrible [01:11:30] to see that, uh, at the time. And it broke a lot of people. And I had one good tutor. [01:11:35] I will mention his name’s Amin. I’m in a minion. He a legend, absolute [01:11:40] legend.

Payman Langroudi: He loved that guy.

Afzal Haque: Lovely man and fantastic clinician, but just [01:11:45] a realist. And when we were undergrads, I must have be third year [01:11:50] or yeah, it would have been third year. And we were doing the, you know, the op tech where you you cut cavities on plastic teeth [01:11:55] and you passed that exam. Then you go on to see patients and other tutors and other groups. So [01:12:00] he was, I was assigned to his group and other, um, students. They were all getting [01:12:05] A’s and I was in from what I remember, it was a, B, C pass. [01:12:10] D was like cause of concern and would only give me C the [01:12:15] odd B, and I’m looking at my colleagues. I’m looking at obviously different teachers have different ways of marking. [01:12:20] I’m looking at my work. It’s not that bad, but I’m getting B’s and C’s. Well, B if I’m lucky. [01:12:25] And I was like, I had to speak to, I mean, and actually I remember he came [01:12:30] up to me and said, are you all right? I said, I said, look, I mean, I’ve been doing this for like a term. Now I’m [01:12:35] only getting C’s.

Afzal Haque: And he just brought me to the side. I said, look, if you’re gonna [01:12:40] get if you want A’s, you have to do this better than me because I’ve been doing this a long time. And [01:12:45] if you’re getting B’s and C’s, you are safe, you’re adequate, and it gives you room to improve. [01:12:50] And so let me tell you one thing. I did nothing else in my Dental undergraduate career than just [01:12:55] passed my exams. He goes, and that’s all you need to do. You need to be hungry to [01:13:00] keep improving. If you get the A’s, you become complacent. So that [01:13:05] stuck with me. And you know, you know, when you’re an undergrad, you look up to these guys and [01:13:10] they say, oh, prosthodontists, you know, you know, they’re brilliant clinicians. And it [01:13:15] was always like a bit of imposter syndrome. You know, when you come out of university, I will never be like him. But [01:13:20] with time, if you’re hungry and you stay humble, you, you’ll [01:13:25] get there. And I’ve still got lots to do. Yet I’ve nowhere the [01:13:30] finished article, but the journey is there and I’m still continuing.

Payman Langroudi: The things that you’ve got [01:13:35] to do where like, how do you categorise them? Like there’s business goals.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I think there’s business goals.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical [01:13:40] goals.

Afzal Haque: Clinical goals. Like I told you.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Afzal Haque: Surgery. Yeah. I mean, I do surgery, but I want to be A [01:13:45] liquor and get much, much better at it. And that comes with time, comes with practice. I’m [01:13:50] lucky I’m working at UConn because I work with oral surgery. So we do a lot of cases together and that [01:13:55] will improve my experience and exposure to it. Um, but yeah, there’s the business goals. [01:14:00] Of course, there’s business goals I want to create. Um, so I mentioned [01:14:05] before, I’ve got a general private practice with an offshoot of endo. At the moment it’s all one, [01:14:10] but my, my plan would be to kind of make it to maybe, maybe [01:14:15] take it to a different location. Um, I’d teaching to it because [01:14:20] I love teaching at the moment I’m teaching postgraduates at the university level. Um, the [01:14:25] reason I’m not doing courses at the moment, um, is because not because I have done them in the past, [01:14:30] I focus a lot on my business. I want to get my business right. I want to get my business right. I want [01:14:35] to get that, that flow, um, of endodontic treatment coming well into, into the practice. [01:14:40] And I don’t, didn’t want to do courses too early. A lot of people do courses way too early. [01:14:45] They’ve graduated. They’ve started courses. How can you teach, you know, endodontics [01:14:50] if you’re not doing it regularly every single day? And I want to be that wet finger dentist that teaches a course [01:14:55] that today someone’s going to learn something and tomorrow they’ll, they’ll, they’ll apply it. So that’s my [01:15:00] goal. I want to create one day, I don’t know when, but some sort of like an institution where people [01:15:05] can come and treat under my supervision, because that’s one thing I think endodontics [01:15:10] doesn’t have that implants and other specialities have mentorship. Mhm. They have [01:15:15] um, so if you’re placing an implant, you can get a mentor.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: But where are your mentors? Where [01:15:20] where are they? No, they don’t exist. Um, why? There must be some logistic [01:15:25] reason, but I’ve got my own practice and I’ve got space, and [01:15:30] I love teaching, so why not try and create something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: It’s [01:15:35] it’s a thought, but let’s see what happens. Um, but for that, I need a bit more time. [01:15:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, man. You’re young.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. So so that’s what I mean. I’m not done yet. Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot as long as I’ve got [01:15:45] energy, I’ve got the air in my lungs. An amazing wife who continues to support [01:15:50] me and my family.

Payman Langroudi: She sounds great.

Afzal Haque: She, she is amazing. You need to bring her on a podcast. You don’t need me. So I say to everybody, [01:15:55] I’m not the specialist. She’s the specialist. Because when you do specialist training, they [01:16:00] all do it with you. She does it from a different angle, supporting everything.

Payman Langroudi: Well, at [01:16:05] the Eastman, they call it the marriage break. Well, it’s it’s.

Afzal Haque: It’s it’s it’s the the divorce.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:16:10] divorce course.

Afzal Haque: Reverse course. I mean, it times have been difficult. [01:16:15] I could not say sit there and it’s been, oh, it’s been a rosy time. The times I want to give up because [01:16:20] I’m like, what am I doing this for? You know, I’m away from my family. My wife’s miserable. I’m [01:16:25] miserable. You know.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, it’s terrible. I know of several divorces [01:16:30] because of.

Afzal Haque: So do I. Yeah, so do I. My brother in law, um, who’s a periodontist. [01:16:35] Um, he studied at the Eastman. He was telling me this all the time and he says [01:16:40] it to me. Now he goes. The fact you two made it is a massive testament testament [01:16:45] to to you both, but I hold her solely responsible for everything [01:16:50] because she she she set it all up. But the difference is we both had the same [01:16:55] goal and it did help the fact she’s a dentist. She. She could see the. No one can see the future. But [01:17:00] you can.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: You can aim for the same thing. And that’s what I feel. She has a [01:17:05] great skill in. But, um. Yeah, because I wanted to give up. She, you know, she [01:17:10] see me, she goes, but you’re not here. She’s your present, but you’re not present. So the kids were going swimming [01:17:15] and I’m on my phone trying to answer emails or and she’s like, this is [01:17:20] this is why I moved to Liverpool in my final year. She kicked me out pretty much. She said, you’re not no [01:17:25] use to us here. And you know, you used to yourself over there because I’m falling behind on projects. I’m not getting [01:17:30] deadlines done because I’ve got a commute. I’ve got to see my practice. I’ve got to I wasn’t I wasn’t meant [01:17:35] to work in that in those three years, but I did.

Payman Langroudi: And were you coming home at the weekends. At that point.

Afzal Haque: So [01:17:40] every day I would leave at 6:45. So before the kids were up and I’d come [01:17:45] back about 8:00 after the kids were asleep. So the first two days never saw them. So. And I’d [01:17:50] work on a Saturday.

Payman Langroudi: Even though you weren’t supposed.

Afzal Haque: You weren’t supposed to. So I came back to Manchester [01:17:55] on a Friday night, Saturday morning in my clinic for half a day till about 2:00. Then I saw the family, [01:18:00] and then Sunday I would get back to my books. So they’d be all going swimming lessons and everything. I’d be [01:18:05] missing it. And the odd time I did turn up, she’s like, you’re not here. So in the final year, when [01:18:10] I really needed to tighten everything, she’s like, right, you’re out of here now. She goes, we’re gonna go and find a flat. [01:18:15] So we went to Liverpool. She, um, in the summer, we found a flat where [01:18:20] I’d be self-contained off to share with anybody. Just got somewhere to put your head, eat your food, [01:18:25] get to university. And literally five minutes from the university walk. And she sent me on my way. So I used to go on a Sunday [01:18:30] night and come back on a Saturday morning. I wasn’t even allowed to come home on a Friday [01:18:35] night. Yeah. She was like, get your work done. So she goes, oh, [01:18:40] I don’t think you need to come back on Friday night to see us. I’d rather you come back on Saturday morning, go straight [01:18:45] to the clinic. Do that and then afterwards give us all your time. So Saturday afternoons [01:18:50] and Sunday morning breakfast time, I would be with them. And then on Sunday afternoons, [01:18:55] about three, 3 or 4:00, I’d go back because you want me back. Go to go back early so I can settle in, do [01:19:00] some work and get ready for the week.

Payman Langroudi: So that much work.

Afzal Haque: There’s a lot of work.

Payman Langroudi: So homework. [01:19:05]

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Because the course is at doctorate level. So you’ve got em condense [01:19:10] you’re researching. It’s very research heavy. It’s not it’s not hard. [01:19:15] It’s just a bigger project. So it had multiple things to do. Then there’s the your [01:19:20] own admin. You’ve got to do all your letters. You’ve got to do everything. Then you know, your audits, your, [01:19:25] you know, revising. And my colleagues, the three guys I was with, they’re all Liverpool [01:19:30] based, you know, Amar, Nick and Mustafa, they’re all Liverpool based. I’m the only one in Manchester. [01:19:35] So when they’re going for the exams, I’m not there. And [01:19:40] you learn in a group. It was much more beneficial to learn as a group. So being there was [01:19:45] important. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think we all know bits of the Dental course we change. [01:19:50] Yeah, yeah. Are there bits of the endo training you would change because, you know, I’m sure, I’m [01:19:55] sure you’re a goddamn expert at the your doctorate thing. Yeah, but [01:20:00] is it is it too much? Is it, is it, is it stuff that they don’t teach you that they really should? Yeah. [01:20:05] Like, you know, like in an ortho morph, they don’t teach any clear aligner at all.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah. So [01:20:10] in terms of endodontic, if I was going to change, change the course, I think it’s got, I mean we were very [01:20:15] lucky we got to place implants. Whoa. Yeah. So faddy. Um, I’ve got a lot [01:20:20] of, lot of time for faddy. Um, our program director, he created [01:20:25] the course so we would place implants, and I thought that was very beneficial at the time. Thinking I’m doing endo. What am I doing [01:20:30] implants for? But it was good to understand the other side of it. And I think, I don’t know where that element is still in in. [01:20:35] The course. But some element of that adding to specialist training would be brilliant because [01:20:40] you get to see the other side and also it doubles up your surgery experience as well. So so it was really good. So [01:20:45] he made sure that we did endo surgery and we did implants and we restored our implants. So [01:20:50] endodontics is an offshoot of restorative dentistry. So [01:20:55] to be a good endodontist, I think you need to be a good restorative dentist first. So in Liverpool [01:21:00] we were very lucky. We restored all our teeth. We did a lot of added dentures. I [01:21:05] understood how the, you know, the occlusion works because that was part of the [01:21:10] overall restorative training as well. So we although we did lots of nearly 200 endo cases, um, [01:21:15] maybe more, but a lot of focus was on restorative. So would I change [01:21:20] anything at the moment I keep that, uh, the implant element in um, I doing [01:21:25] a doctorate or doing a master’s. I don’t think it makes much difference [01:21:30] in terms of getting on the specialist list. It just is a bigger project. Um, how? [01:21:35] Having said that, it opens more doors up later.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Afzal Haque: And I think [01:21:40] it has for me, especially because, you know, in terms of teaching and all that kind of stuff, it’s it’s been [01:21:45] very, very beneficial to have it at the time, I hated it. Just, just hated it. Just wanted to just, you [01:21:50] know, rip it up and throw it in the bin. But you don’t realise at the time. But [01:21:55] afterwards when you reflect, you think, yeah, it was a hard three years. Well, nearly four years. [01:22:00] Um, because um I had to take an extension to, to hand in my [01:22:05] doctorate, which is quite common, but it just means you don’t finish on that third year. [01:22:10] You’ve still got to do a bit more work, but then the world of work starts and you come out, you come out without a job.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:22:15]

Afzal Haque: Although it’s not like medicine or even the orthodontists, [01:22:20] they come out and there’s awful practices where, you know, they’ve got contract, they can get a job. Who’s going to send [01:22:25] you endo?

Payman Langroudi: From the beginning you weren’t working.

Afzal Haque: So, so I, I obviously I’m the lucky one because I had my own practice. [01:22:30] So I was building a little bit of referral work there, but not a lot. So I came out [01:22:35] and was like, right, I’m a fully fledged endodontist. No work or very little. I’ve got [01:22:40] half a day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s.

Afzal Haque: Not gonna support the family. So I had to still do a bit of general. I had to carry on doing [01:22:45] a bit of general dentistry. Yeah. And then I managed to work [01:22:50] at another practice not far from where I live, just to kind of, um, help them out. And [01:22:55] that gave me a little bit of more income. I taught at Manchester as well at the university. That wasn’t [01:23:00] great financially, but it was something to do. But you don’t get told all these [01:23:05] things, you know, you think you’re done, you go straight into a job. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I was saying.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [01:23:10] you’ve got to create your own brand essentially. So why would someone refer to me? You [01:23:15] know, what is it about me? So that’s how the journey has come. Now five, six [01:23:20] years on, you start to see the benefit of all that hard work. You don’t see it straight away. And this is why I respect [01:23:25] people like Sanj, because Sanj is 2030 years of [01:23:30] that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Afzal Haque: So everything is hats off to him. You know he deserves. [01:23:35]

Payman Langroudi: He’s the Don in the North.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. He deserves the utmost respect because he put in the hours. [01:23:40] You know, he left his kids to go and teach and and lecture and etc. [01:23:45] and all that kind of stuff. Um, and that’s how we built a successful business. So [01:23:50] we’re not reinventing the wheel here. It’s like any business [01:23:55] or any sort of, um, entrepreneur, if you like what they [01:24:00] do. Copy it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: There’s, there’s no, there’s nothing amazing about it.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:24:05] like to talk about mistakes.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say so? Clinical error.

Afzal Haque: So. [01:24:10] Well, do you want to do any mistakes or do you want to do either. Right. We’ll start with random mistakes. [01:24:15] Well there’s not one procedural error that I’ve probably not done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: And I think the best endodontists [01:24:20] are made the ones who’ve done the most mistakes because then you know how to fix that. [01:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So broken files. Everyone does it. Everyone does it. I broke a [01:24:30] file. Now, this. This is a true story in a tooth of a patient that I was seeing in my own [01:24:35] practice when I was a general dentist years ago. Patient was nice. Very, very [01:24:40] okay. Okay. And then that tooth over years was [01:24:45] fine. And then eventually started to get problematic. Patient was getting pain. Discomfort [01:24:50] started to get a bit upset. The patient now and everyone looks at, oh, there’s a file broken in that [01:24:55] tooth and in that, in that root. And that’s where the infection is from. Luckily, I [01:25:00] was able to remove it because I had the training. Many, many, many years later. So [01:25:05] I got away with that one. Um, but and I managed to get it out retreated and the patient’s fine, [01:25:10] but that is a common.

Payman Langroudi: Why does a broken file cause pain?

Afzal Haque: It’s not the file. And [01:25:15] this is what I try and get out to people a lot and patients that come in. Oh you broke a tool. Tool. I [01:25:20] left a tool on my tooth. I’m like, let’s take it back a bit. It’s [01:25:25] not the the tool or the file that causes the infection. It’s the bacteria that’s left [01:25:30] around it. So the way.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t fill.

Afzal Haque: You can’t fill around, you can’t clean around it. So the way I describe [01:25:35] it to patients, because that’s part of the consent process is that if especially a particularly curved tooth, we’re going [01:25:40] to mention it. I’m going to mention in most teeth, but I will mention that there’s a chance of separation of [01:25:45] a file and what that may mean it might alter the outcome. And [01:25:50] I’ll explain that if it happens early on in the treatment, it’s more of an issue because I’ve [01:25:55] not had the opportunity to clean. But if it happens towards the end, you can just fill it. And majority of the time it’s not going [01:26:00] to be a problem. So it’s not a negligent, it’s a procedural error. Um, there’s [01:26:05] ways of trying to avoid it by taking your time using small files, bringing, you know, [01:26:10] getting the shape bigger slowly. But if it does happen, first of all, tell your patient. [01:26:15] Second of all, don’t panic. Sometimes if you’ve cleaned it well, it’s [01:26:20] going to be fine. If you can see it, you can retrieve it generally. But if it’s [01:26:25] around a curve, you’ve got to think about is it worth doing that?

Payman Langroudi: You see it with your microscope?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I can see with microscopes. [01:26:30] Generally, generally the rule is I would definitely attempt to retrieve it, but it’s around a curve. [01:26:35] There’s no chance of getting that out. So it’s not the file, it’s the bacteria around it. I will just try and irrigate as much as I can, [01:26:40] activate the Irrigant try and get as much around that file as possible. Trying to see if I can um if [01:26:45] reduce the bacterial load and eventually hopefully it will settle because it’s [01:26:50] about reducing the overall bacteria and the immune system will do its [01:26:55] bits as well. So I don’t see that as a problem. But that’s one area we talk. Perforations happen a lot. [01:27:00] And I think back in the day I would just get a big, big, um, diamond burr, [01:27:05] take it into the cavity and it’s just sank a bit too far and [01:27:10] you see bleeding. What’s that. You’ve just gone straight through the middle of the tooth. So [01:27:15] that could be avoided now by using these end cutting burs. I didn’t have them at the time. I didn’t have [01:27:20] any sort of, um, understanding of it at the time. So that’s, that’s one error. Um [01:27:25] let’s talk about a non Indo error.

Payman Langroudi: So but what [01:27:30] about an Indo era where it went wrong with the patient.

Afzal Haque: Um I’d be [01:27:35] very lucky I’ve not had that because I feel I communicate quite well. Yeah. And I think that I’ve [01:27:40] had one patient where it went a little bit funny, but we managed to deal with it. I ended up giving [01:27:45] giving them the money back. But let’s talk about that one. So it [01:27:50] was a patient where I did endodontic treatment and it just never settled. Six months [01:27:55] later, he went to see another dentist and it was an upper six. It looked fine on the radiograph and [01:28:00] it was um yeah, they still had a lesion on the tooth. The dentist decided [01:28:05] um I need to take the tooth out, but what the, what the comment that they passed on to the patient [01:28:10] was, oh this tooth has an mm two which it has not been filled.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [01:28:15]

Afzal Haque: And I was like fine. And then I was a little bit shocked about that. Got [01:28:20] this big letter from the then from the patient. Um, what are you going to do about it? I’ve had to [01:28:25] endure all this, which is fair enough. Um, when I looked back at the notes I thought, he’s [01:28:30] in here. He was in the letter. He was saying another dentist who has not got the speciality you’ve got [01:28:35] seems to spotted there was missed me too. Why have you not done this? Then I went back to my notes [01:28:40] and I read my notes. I looked at radiographs and I said, there is an MM2 there and I have filled it. So what had [01:28:45] happened? The dentist who made that comment had taken an X-ray at an angle where the [01:28:50] MM2 and mm one superimposed over each other. He’s not seen it. And I’ve seen my [01:28:55] radiograph and I’ve taken different angles. There is an MM2.

Payman Langroudi: Filled.

Afzal Haque: Filled. [01:29:00] There is a slight difference in it because the contrast of the MM2 is slightly [01:29:05] different to the. Mm one because the it was a challenging [01:29:10] one. And um I think the apex was slightly a bit more wider than, than um [01:29:15] I would have expected. So I filled the failed majority of that with Bioceramic. So it’s there, but it’s [01:29:20] got a different contrast. So when I read the notes, I said, well, it has been done. It’s just unfortunate. [01:29:25] It’s one of those what we call 20% that won’t work. I wrote back to the [01:29:30] patient and explained that this this is what’s happened. Um, it has been filled. [01:29:35] Unfortunately, I had to write that, you know, sometimes if you’ve not got a trained eye or you’ve taken [01:29:40] an X-ray, a different angle, you may miss it, but it’s just unfortunate that it hasn’t happened. He started to get [01:29:45] all very, very upset about it. Oh no, no, no, you’re wrong. You’ve not done it [01:29:50] right. And I was like, look what’s going to make you happiest? And he was like I said, if [01:29:55] I gave you all and gave you your money back with that, would that please you? He said, yeah, [01:30:00] that’s the least I want. So we just, we just ended it there. Um, it could have got worse. Um, [01:30:05] but then I think the learning point from that was not to be aggressive [01:30:10] back. Yeah, yeah. It’s like, you know what, if that’s what you want, leave it. You know, you’ve done it right. Um, I [01:30:15] got my indemnity involved and even they took my point on [01:30:20] it because they weren’t an endodontist they, they couldn’t see what I had done when they read the notes like, ah, now [01:30:25] it makes sense. So if you want to fight it, you can fight. I’m not gonna, I don’t want to. Let’s just deal with it. Move on because [01:30:30] yeah, £1,000. It’s it’s not not the end of the world. [01:30:35]

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t tend to be the money. It’s the point. Yeah.

Afzal Haque: It’s not the money. No you’re right. It’s, [01:30:40] it’s more like, how dare they not, you know, say what they said.

Payman Langroudi: Also [01:30:45] it’s, it’s like, you know, like your intent was absolutely right. 100%. Your treatment ended [01:30:50] up being absolutely right. Yeah, yeah. And the guys kind of said, well, that’s the question that that’s. [01:30:55]

Afzal Haque: The learning point from that is that no matter how well you do the treatment, sometimes things don’t go well. And that [01:31:00] happens a lot. So you call that a mistake? I don’t think it was it was a mistake. But it was it was an an [01:31:05] interesting moment. The more mistakes I’ve had dentistry where patients have actually gone on to take it [01:31:10] further, more when I was a general dentist. So I had a patient, um, This is going back. It was 2008. [01:31:15] It’s going back a while. I got married in 2009 and she was [01:31:20] a new patient. Lots of perio. Um, and had a problem with an upper six [01:31:25] heavily, heavily filled and came in with an abscess, like a big facial [01:31:30] swelling. And we ended up extracting the, the upper six. So the upper six got, got extracted [01:31:35] and then for months I didn’t see her. And then one day [01:31:40] I got a letter from her and the letter said that she’s been in hospital, hospitalised, [01:31:45] have multiple sinus infections, has had to have surgery, etc., [01:31:50] etc.. I was like really shocked at this, like just a routine extraction and this is the way it’s gone. And [01:31:55] I remember at the time I was very cautious, checked for OAC, all that stuff. And it’s been [01:32:00] a long, long time since it happened. And then she got, she, she went further with it. And [01:32:05] this is around the time I was getting married and it really put me off, really [01:32:10] knocked me because I’m not. I’m 2006 graduate. 2008 is happening. I’m thinking, have I got a career now? Yeah, [01:32:15] yeah, I’m getting married literally in a year’s time.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I’ve got to provide for the family. I’ve got to do this. [01:32:20] What happens at this point anyway? It got resolved through through protection. Dental [01:32:25] protection. Um, but what the outcome was, it was a very rare issue [01:32:30] with a very routine treatment. So they couldn’t they were like, we don’t [01:32:35] even know what’s happened. Anyway, the patient got what they needed. But that [01:32:40] was the, the start of like, let’s become better. Let’s [01:32:45] become better. Let’s learn from it could go the complete opposite way. I remember I got married on the, on, [01:32:50] on the Saturday and on the Monday because I didn’t we didn’t go away on our honeymoon straight away. We [01:32:55] left it a few weeks and on the Monday I was having a meeting with that lady. And [01:33:00] I remember seeing her. I just just got married. And I’m dealing with this. No, it’s your fault. It’s your fault. It’s your fault. We’re [01:33:05] going to take it further anyway, I think it’s important that. And in [01:33:10] many ways I’m so glad it happened. Not not that the patient suffered. That issue happened [01:33:15] with me because it built resilience. Like, do you know what? That’s why we pay our indemnity. [01:33:20] Yeah, yeah. I pay you to deal with the problem. I [01:33:25] think if you have that philosophy, then as long as you know in your heart you’re doing everything right [01:33:30] and you’ve done the best and most of us will will do that. What’s the point [01:33:35] of worrying?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, man. And we’re human. Sometimes we won’t do everything right.

Afzal Haque: Let [01:33:40] the lawyers deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: Let yourself off that. Yeah. That fact. But sometimes in a long career. Yeah, yeah, [01:33:45] there’ll be a mistake somewhere.

Afzal Haque: And you take it so personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: That’s the problem. And I think [01:33:50] I’ve become a little bit more thick skinned as time has gone on. But that’s only experience. That’s not my my nature is to still [01:33:55] be upset if someone doesn’t like you. I don’t like that. Of course I don’t like that. I don’t [01:34:00] fall out with people.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Afzal Haque: Um, that’s just my nature.

Payman Langroudi: You’re in high end private where? It’s [01:34:05] a yes business.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to make people happy.

Afzal Haque: It’s a show business [01:34:10] in many ways, and we have to make good relations. And if somebody doesn’t like [01:34:15] you, it does bother me. So there is a part of that where I still probably will be bothered to a certain degree, [01:34:20] but then I’ll be like, well, this is why we have this service. And and they do a great job, so [01:34:25] let them deal with it.

Payman Langroudi: Would you be happy for your kids to become dentists?

Afzal Haque: Would I be happy? I wouldn’t have any objection [01:34:30] whatsoever. Um, I mean, it’s a cliche to let them do what they want. That is part of it as [01:34:35] well. But some of my kids may not be cut out for it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:34:40]

Afzal Haque: So so whatever suits them, if they came to me tomorrow and said, dad, I really want to be a dentist, I said, well, [01:34:45] go as far as you can go. I have no objection. Any career because I honestly believe you’re [01:34:50] in charge of your your destiny. Really, if you want to be the best doctor, [01:34:55] the best marketer, the best banker, best dentist, [01:35:00] just aim for the stars.

Payman Langroudi: Problem is, a lot of times kids don’t know what they want.

Afzal Haque: That’s the problem. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: They come to you.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, yeah. And it’s always you.

Payman Langroudi: Would you, would you advise dentistry?

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I [01:35:10] would say yeah. I say it’s a good profession. It gives you stability. But that’s the problem. [01:35:15] Everybody will only would advise what they know. Yeah. It’s like someone comes up to me [01:35:20] and said um would you be a specialist? Endodontist. Well, yeah, of course. [01:35:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m asking everyone though. Yeah. How long before robots do dentistry?

Afzal Haque: I [01:35:30] think it will happen, but it’s not going to happen in our lifetime, I don’t think. I [01:35:35] don’t know, I just I just feel there’s that human element of, of, of treating [01:35:40] patients.

Payman Langroudi: The social.

Afzal Haque: Emotional element.

Payman Langroudi: You can have a person [01:35:45] who’s not a dentist.

Afzal Haque: I, I, yeah, no, I see what you’re saying, but I think a lot of patients, I think a lot of patients [01:35:50] may not, may not accept that at this moment in time, having treatment done by a robot. Why? [01:35:55] Because they want to speak to somebody. They want someone to TCO.

Payman Langroudi: Like the TCO could be the [01:36:00] most charming person.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: I don’t know, I don’t know, I know what you’re trying [01:36:05] to say, but I just I just feel there’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot of people, a lot of people think, what do you think?

Afzal Haque: I still think that there’s an element [01:36:10] of a human to do treatment and to speak to people. And would I want that [01:36:15] for myself now? Difficult for me to answer that because I know about the industry, but I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Speak to him. [01:36:20] There’ll be humans there, just not dentists.

Afzal Haque: But they I don’t know whether they want someone to actually do the treatment [01:36:25] for them or not. I think it could happen. I think it could happen. It’s a difficult one, isn’t it? Um, but [01:36:30] it is going that way. It’s just I would I want a robot to do my leg [01:36:35] surgery, for example.

Payman Langroudi: What if he’s better than the human?

Afzal Haque: Like, how do I know that?

Payman Langroudi: Because he will be by that [01:36:40] time, isn’t he? Yeah.

Afzal Haque: Well, I think until we know that. Yeah, I think I know I’ll reserve my judgement until I know that [01:36:45] if I know they can do multiple procedures perfectly.

Payman Langroudi: Then let’s face [01:36:50] it, then the way they’ll be, the way it’ll be will be that the ender will be done much [01:36:55] better than what you’re doing, because it’ll be the world’s best. Endodontists will train the [01:37:00] model. Yeah, yeah, that’s.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, well, if that happened, I’m out of a job [01:37:05] at that point, and hopefully I’ll be dead before.

Payman Langroudi: My kids saying she was [01:37:10] a dentist. She’s 15. Yeah, that means eight years time she’s going to be a dentist. Yeah, [01:37:15] it is a long time.

Afzal Haque: It is a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Ai and robotics.

Afzal Haque: I know, I know it’s [01:37:20] you know, you’re right. It’s scary how quickly these things are moving on. I suppose I’m not giving it much [01:37:25] thought. And I’ve always kind of maybe may have been maybe.

Payman Langroudi: In a Waymo like a driverless car. [01:37:30] I mean, they’re all over London.

Afzal Haque: At the moment. I wouldn’t I like to drive [01:37:35] my own car though.

Payman Langroudi: But driverless taxi.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Again I have to be proven [01:37:40] that it’s it works and it’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s easy to prove.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I suppose I wouldn’t have [01:37:45] any any problem with that. I suppose I wouldn’t have any problem with that. But I don’t know when it comes to the human, when it comes to. [01:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: What is it, what do you think the magic outside of the social which will take care of. We’re talking [01:37:55] a brain. The brain’s already unbelievable. Yeah, you’re talking AIS. They can sort out X-ray vision. [01:38:00] Amazing AIS. And then you took your hands. Or you don’t think they can improve on hands?

Afzal Haque: Yeah, I suppose they’ll be able to do [01:38:05] it. Well, basically, I may as well give up right now. Let’s end this podcast. I’ll [01:38:10] retrain on something else.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a pleasure having you, man. We’re gonna end with [01:38:15] the usual question that I asked. It’s been great about a fantasy dinner party.

Afzal Haque: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:38:20] guests.

Afzal Haque: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive, who are you having?

Afzal Haque: So, first of all, I’ll. I’ll always [01:38:25] have my dad. My, my, my dad has been brilliant for me all through my life. Is [01:38:30] he still with us? He’s still with us? Yeah, he’s still with us. You’re not my father. Right? Fine.

Payman Langroudi: If he’s still [01:38:35] with us.

Afzal Haque: He is still with us, actually. But, um. Okay, so we’ll start off with [01:38:40] I.

Payman Langroudi: Your wife or your kids, or.

Afzal Haque: I will start off with Sir [01:38:45] Alex Ferguson. All right, so I’m a big United fan. Yeah. And. [01:38:50] I’d love to know about his man management, how [01:38:55] he.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read the books?

Afzal Haque: I do, I haven’t, but this must be amazing. I actually have one [01:39:00] of my things I would like to do.

Payman Langroudi: I absolutely don’t care about football, but if I did, I would definitely be. I’m thinking [01:39:05] about reading them even though I don’t care about them.

Afzal Haque: You know, it’s something that I probably probably would be a really good.

Payman Langroudi: Business.

Afzal Haque: Book. Yeah. Um, [01:39:10] but it’s just how to manage people because that’s what we do day to day is how has he got the best out of people? [01:39:15] I mean, we have our own ways of getting the best out of people. But this is how Alex Ferguson, you know, [01:39:20] he won so much with United. Um, so I definitely would like to have him there. And I’d like to also know [01:39:25] from him what actually happened with David Beckham, what actually happened. What was the real reason [01:39:30] that you that that you got him out of the club? But yeah, so Alex is definitely one [01:39:35] of them. Um, the next guy I would have, the next person I would have, it would [01:39:40] have to be. And only because I followed this chap as a tennis player, Roger [01:39:45] Federer. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I used to play a lot of tennis when I was, when I was younger. And I played for, [01:39:50] for, for a local club. Just junior level. No no no no nothing. Nothing. Amazing. Um, just [01:39:55] sorry, not junior level club level, But ephedrine would be, what, maybe 18 months, [01:40:00] two years older than I am right now. But at the age of when I was about 12 or 13, [01:40:05] I remember someone in the club talking about, oh, there’s this junior coming out [01:40:10] called Roger, Roger Federer from Switzerland. He was about 14 or 15 at the time. I remember we we saw [01:40:15] we saw some saw, saw some video about him or we heard something about him. And he was in my mind from [01:40:20] that day forward. So a lot of people following him. Yeah. So a lot of people followed him, you know, once he’s become successful [01:40:25] and I knew about him. So that iconic, um, match that he, [01:40:30] he played at Wimbledon in, I think it was the fourth round or quarterfinal [01:40:35] maybe in the fourth round against Tim Henman where he beat him. But that was [01:40:40] the coming of Roger Federer, because I think the next year he came back and he won the tournament. Um, [01:40:45] so I’ve always followed him. What I like about him is just he makes tennis [01:40:50] look so lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: And if [01:40:55] I would like to be like him in my profession, I was like, I don’t want to make want to be as [01:41:00] finesse and beautiful in my work as as he makes tennis [01:41:05] look and a gentleman family man and reached [01:41:10] the top of his game. So he was he definitely be the the one [01:41:15] that I’d have.

Payman Langroudi: And both of those two have come on dinner parties on this show. [01:41:20]

Afzal Haque: Have they?

Payman Langroudi: Many times.

Afzal Haque: Oh gosh. Um and he would be the last one. Um, [01:41:25] I mean it’s hard, it’s hard to hard to pick, pick the last [01:41:30] one. Um, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna mention [01:41:35] this, this chat and I don’t think anyone probably has mentioned this, but I’m a big United fan and I [01:41:40] grew up in Manchester. I went to school in East Manchester as a, as [01:41:45] a primary school lad, where I went to a predominantly white school working class area, and [01:41:50] I was the only coloured lad in the not in the class in the school. The reason I went [01:41:55] to that school, because my dad taught in the feeder, um, secondary school. So it was easier for him in those days [01:42:00] we got in. But my favourite footballer of all time is not going to be your obvious guy is [01:42:05] Andy Cole. Oh, Andy Cole is my favourite footballer of all time. And [01:42:10] one of the main reasons is, is that when he came on the scene when he signed for United, I think it was 95, he [01:42:15] he’s off colour and he helped [01:42:20] people like us when we were the only coloured lad in the class. We’re all playing football, we were all playing [01:42:25] football and we all want to be a player. We all want to be Eric Cantona or or so on. And [01:42:30] I was Andy Cole, I was Andy Cole and and and I played the striker [01:42:35] like he did. And he did wonders for I wonders for [01:42:40] for United. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you suffer with racism. Yeah. In school.

Afzal Haque: At primary school a [01:42:45] lot a lot. So like like I mentioned, I was the only coloured lad in that school [01:42:50] and my, it was convenient for my father to send me to that school, but I. I’d have assemblies [01:42:55] on who I was because the kids [01:43:00] in the school did not did not understand what why I was brown. I had, [01:43:05] um, kids come and say to me, um, why? Why have you got chocolate on your face? Why don’t [01:43:10] you wipe it off? Or why are you brown? And why are we not and make some [01:43:15] silly remarks. And I remember it wasn’t until my brother joined two years later that [01:43:20] things got a little bit more normal, and then more kids. And there was a local pharmacist whose son [01:43:25] joined, but we would have little scraps at school, my brother and myself. And um, [01:43:30] we would, um, get called and we’d have to have an assembly. Like he is no [01:43:35] different to the rest of you. And that happened a lot in primary. Yeah. I, it didn’t, it didn’t bother me [01:43:40] so much.

Payman Langroudi: In school at that sort of age. All you want is to fit in.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And if you’ve got this [01:43:45] obvious reason why you’re not fitting in, absolutely. You can put it like a.

Afzal Haque: Massive, massive.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:43:50] you think do you put your success down to surviving that? I don’t.

Afzal Haque: Know. I suppose at the time I didn’t take much notice [01:43:55] of it. Um, because, because, because my dad worked in a, in a similar environment, he was fine. He [01:44:00] just said, oh, just, just forget about it. But then sporting heroes, like at [01:44:05] the time, Andy Cole for United, there was Paul Ince, they, they played, played for my favourite club. [01:44:10] Um, not long after Prince Naseem Hamed came on the scene in boxing. I’m [01:44:15] a big boxing fan. I love boxing and, and he put us people of a similar colour on the map [01:44:20] and. Yeah. So these things made a difference. But no, it didn’t bother [01:44:25] me that much. But when I went to high school, I went to a very mixed high school. So the high school I [01:44:30] went to was closer to where I lived. So the primary school was further away because that was my dad worked, [01:44:35] but high school was closer to our family home, and we live in a very multicultural area. And [01:44:40] I found that bizarre, how we’re seeing people that look a bit like me and all different [01:44:45] walks of life. It was brilliant. So I don’t think it made much difference [01:44:50] because since then, since leaving that premise, I’ve never had. I can honestly say I’ve never had any problem with this. [01:44:55] Um, I know some people have, but I’ve never been, um, a victim [01:45:00] of that and I don’t think it’s ever held me back. Um, whether I can see it, I don’t [01:45:05] know, but I don’t feel it has.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I wasn’t a massive fan of him yet, [01:45:10] but, um the Prime Minister was in India. Yeah, absolutely. I didn’t think I’d [01:45:15] see that. Yeah. That was, that was brilliant wasn’t it? Yeah. I did not think I’d see that. Yeah. And [01:45:20] even though I wasn’t a fan of Rishi um his policies.

Afzal Haque: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I still [01:45:25] thought good on good on Britain for doing. Absolutely.

Speaker 4: Absolutely.

Afzal Haque: And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Pulling that off. [01:45:30]

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: It’s important. But um yeah it did it bother me. Not [01:45:35] really. I, um, I just, I just got to be put at the front of the class in front of everybody else. [01:45:40] And I was like the sense of retention for a few moments. But yeah, so, so he’d be my [01:45:45] third call And it’s probably no one’s going to sportsmen. Yeah, because I [01:45:50] love sports. I’m a big fan. My son is into. I’m living. My wife says you’re living your childhood through [01:45:55] your son.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Afzal Haque: So which I am doing, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna lie for him. He’s a he’s a really good sportsman. [01:46:00] So football, cricket does everything. And I love going around and, and watching, [01:46:05] watching. Yeah. It’s one thing I was a good cricketer, but my parents [01:46:10] were the limiting factor because what you’re going to do with [01:46:15] it, you know, you’re not going to make it. Uh, I was a good bowler. Um, but I [01:46:20] didn’t have that fan following that my son gets today. Um, and I think it’s [01:46:25] a world of difference makes all the difference. He looks out for me and when he’s done something good, he wants that acknowledgement. [01:46:30] And dad’s watching. Dad’s giving him the thumbs up. I think that’s brilliant. Um, I have no regrets. [01:46:35] And I don’t blame my parents because it’s a different era, different philosophy, different the [01:46:40] different circumstances. But if I had a chance, I would have loved to have progressed [01:46:45] a little bit further in in sports, but hey, we’ve not [01:46:50] done too badly.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing, man. I really enjoyed that. Um, [01:46:55] learnt a lot from you, man. Thank you. Um, you know what I should do? I should put out like a little if [01:47:00] you want to be an endodontist sort of like a highlight reel of yours and emsas and.

Afzal Haque: Yeah, [01:47:05] because they’re all different journeys. Yeah. All different journeys, but ended up in the same place. So [01:47:10] it’s, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a really, really, really small world. And like, you guys all know, like [01:47:15] everyone in the, in the community.

Afzal Haque: It’s a very small world. Like you said, um, there’s not many of us, but. [01:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: Mm. You know. Mm.

Afzal Haque: Yes. Yeah. Um, but the take [01:47:25] home message is, is that no matter where you started from, [01:47:30] you can do whatever you want. And I’m, I’m living proof of that. Um, you don’t have to [01:47:35] have that perfect CV. Um, you can go this route, that route, that route, whichever. [01:47:40] And life takes different turns.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very, very, very determined and and very ambitious [01:47:45] too. I was, as you were telling the story, I’m sitting here thinking, you know, you don’t have to like [01:47:50] you could have been a dentist with a bit of an interest in anything, but not a bit of endo. Yeah. And [01:47:55] continue to be that. But yeah, I want to get better at this. Yeah. Then, well, want to become a specialist? [01:48:00] Yeah. And I think they have another associate specialist working for you. You know.

Afzal Haque: I think you get one.

Payman Langroudi: Life naturally [01:48:05] to you. I think yeah, the stuff that comes naturally to us, we don’t sort of think of it. [01:48:10] It just comes naturally, isn’t it?

Afzal Haque: Well, I think in life generally you’ll be successful [01:48:15] if if you’re good at something and you take it somewhere, you’ll generally be quite good at it. And [01:48:20] the way I look at it, you’ve got one life.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Afzal Haque: Live up to. You do whatever you can. Um, [01:48:25] it’s like Anthony Joshua says, you know the boxer. Stay hungry, stay humble. Yeah. Always [01:48:30] have to be hungry. And if I was gonna give any advice to anybody is that, you know, the cliche term, don’t give up. [01:48:35] That goes without saying. But you can do whatever you want to do [01:48:40] as long as you have a focus and you know, you try and line up everything so [01:48:45] that so that you reach that goal. And if you don’t reach it, if you don’t become a specialist, you will be the next [01:48:50] level down. And that’s still very, very good. But don’t limit your ambitions. Um, [01:48:55] try to tell my kids this every single day driving when I drive them to school. Say, you’re the best. [01:49:00] You’re you’re brilliant. Touch the sky. Work the hardest you can [01:49:05] do. Just be the best version of yourself and go and win the day. That’s my [01:49:10] line to them. And when they get out of the car, go and win the day. Whatever it is, whether it’s sport, [01:49:15] your studies, you know, being the politest person, being the best mannered, doing something [01:49:20] nice for somebody else.

Payman Langroudi: You accept your dad didn’t say this or.

Afzal Haque: No.

Payman Langroudi: No he.

Afzal Haque: Didn’t. My dad was very tough. [01:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: And yet you, you you did. So maybe. Maybe you’re overcompensating, maybe I am. I [01:49:30] don’t know where I’m going, but my dad, the first time he told me he’s proud of me was when I stuck 16 veneers [01:49:35] on him, aged, aged 30 or something. Yeah. And now I tell my kids I’m proud of them [01:49:40] too much.

Afzal Haque: I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: True. Meanings gone from it. You know.

Afzal Haque: My dad’s never said that. But but, [01:49:45] you know, he he acknowledges it.

Payman Langroudi: He boasts about it.

Afzal Haque: To other people. Well, he doesn’t even do that. He just, he just [01:49:50] he just goes, he just like, yeah, yeah, it’s fine if he gets silence from me. You [01:49:55] know, you’ve done all right. But you’re right. I think I probably overcomplicate with my kids, but do you know what I [01:50:00] think? You always try and give them what you didn’t have.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Afzal Haque: And every walk of life.

Payman Langroudi: Of course it’s natural. [01:50:05]

Afzal Haque: Yeah. I mean, you educate, educate them the best. You give up whatever you can [01:50:10] to make sure they have it. And I think that’s the the circle of life.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks so much for doing this. We [01:50:15] really enjoyed it.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for [01:50:20] future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:50:25] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give [01:50:30] us.

Payman Langroudi: A six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver. [01:50:35]

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Recently, one of the groups did a survey to understand [00:00:05] what is the most profitable thing that they can do in their Dental chair and enlighten came in as the second most profitable [00:00:10] thing, coming in at £900 per hour. So if your dental chair is busy, [00:00:15] it should be busy doing things like enlighten. Come and join us on enlighten Online training to [00:00:20] fully understand how to do the process, how to talk to patients about it. Deliver brilliant results [00:00:25] every time. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Patricia Galuska onto the podcast. Patricia [00:00:55] is a practice manager in Warwick and I’m really happy to have a [00:01:00] practice manager on because I don’t think I’ve had many. And I [00:01:05] don’t know if you heard the episode we had with Mark Allen of Bupa, the CEO [00:01:10] of Bupa Dental, and he said that he’s a seasoned professional, like he’s [00:01:15] been in insurance, he’s been in this, that, and the other. Now he’s running 8000 people in [00:01:20] Bupa dental care. And he said the hardest job he’s come across as practice manager. All [00:01:25] the different roles you have to play with employed people, self-employed people, [00:01:30] patients, compliance and so on. And I’ve been following your content. [00:01:35] It’s one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because it’s really lovely content, very helpful content.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank [00:01:40] you.

Payman Langroudi: And I know how hard it is to make content alongside everything [00:01:45] else you’ve got to do.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but that’s a pleasure to have you. Um, I want [00:01:50] to kind of start with how did you end up in Dental?

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you. [00:01:55] It’s a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me. So before I came to [00:02:00] UK, I was only 19. I finished my A-levels and my goal [00:02:05] was always to be actually in the healthcare. So it was just to really [00:02:10] decide if I want to be a dental hygienist or doing the healthcare management. [00:02:15] Came to UK over the summer time just to work before I [00:02:20] wanted to start uni from Poland. From Poland. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it actual A-levels or Polish [00:02:25] equivalent of A-levels?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s equivalent, yes. Yes. So I was just basically [00:02:30] finishing that and then ready to go to uni. Yeah. Came here [00:02:35] with the goal just to work, save some money and go back. But I think after [00:02:40] a month we had the loss in our family. And I felt like a [00:02:45] different kind of responsibility over the night. Mhm. And I felt [00:02:50] this is the opportunity you can miss. And I decided I want to [00:02:55] stay. And I remember my mom’s reaction and my family was like, what? [00:03:00] They were not probably happy with it, but I’m so glad I stayed. [00:03:05] And I first started working as a barista and a waitress in [00:03:10] a local cafe in the morning, in the evening in the restaurant. After [00:03:15] a few years, I felt that I have to do something. I really want to be in [00:03:20] the health care. And I applied for a trainee dental nurse via CV and [00:03:25] got a job front of line. Now I’m in the clinic and [00:03:30] progressed from trainee dental nurse. Step by step to lead dental [00:03:35] nurse practice manager. And after that I moved to the business [00:03:40] manager where I’m currently at. Spi smiles.

Payman Langroudi: So this sort of [00:03:45] determination that you clearly have, would you say that sort of the inflection [00:03:50] point was when your uncle passed away?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Remember. [00:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: That person before.

Patrycja Galonzka: I was. I was really like, raised [00:04:00] in a way that discipline is something that takes you to where you want to be. Um, [00:04:05] but what he told me is the last time I remember seeing him go [00:04:10] and try. You can always come back. If you’re not going to try, you will never know. [00:04:15] And that’s my courage to today’s days to be honest. So [00:04:20] I feel like if you don’t try, you will never know if that’s something for you or not. And [00:04:25] I knew that healthcare was my goal, but doing the waitress and barista [00:04:30] job before it helped me as well to connect with different people, to [00:04:35] save them, to work under the pressure as well. So those skills were [00:04:40] very transferable to actually to the dental practice.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about Prav before. Prav [00:04:45] is one of my cohosts. Yeah, he him and his brother. I don’t know if you’ve come across his brother Caleb.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:04:50] He’s Dental.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, both of them are most super successful people, and both [00:04:55] of them put working in their dad’s shop as one of the key things that makes [00:05:00] them successful. Because both of them can talk, right? They can.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talk.

Payman Langroudi: And not rubbish [00:05:05] either. Both of them can really hold the room. Yes. And Prav was telling me, you know, like when you when you sit behind [00:05:10] the till and you have to talk to the 78 year old lady who [00:05:15] just wants a conversation and the businessman who’s in a hurry, and the kid who’s come [00:05:20] to rob your store.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh my God. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: You just learn how to communicate with.

Patrycja Galonzka: People. [00:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you feel like that barista job was like an important point there, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. [00:05:30] Dealing with the.

Payman Langroudi: Public.

Patrycja Galonzka: Right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. And especially coming to UK when I was only 19. [00:05:35] Same again. You had to save people from a different groups youngsters [00:05:40] to the elderly people. But I always connected better with elderly people. I [00:05:45] don’t.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know why. Me too, me too. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How about when? When? If I said, how would you characterise your childhood [00:05:50] in Poland. Like what was the what was that like?

Patrycja Galonzka: It was definitely [00:05:55] my mom. She’s like a superwoman to me.

Patrycja Galonzka: What does she do?

Patrycja Galonzka: So she was [00:06:00] actually a dental nurse for some time as well. Yeah, yeah. And I remember going to [00:06:05] the clinic and then I was helping her with the X-ray cards. You [00:06:10] know, the paper records. She was so cool. Um, and then she had a shop like [00:06:15] a, you know, auto shop like the performs in here in, in UK. Um, [00:06:20] but yeah, she was just raising us in such a beautiful way with very, [00:06:25] with a high discipline, like be grateful for what you’ve got and [00:06:30] just never give up. And that’s what I’m trying to say to my daughter. Just never give up. [00:06:35] Try but never give up. And now when she reads the books, she gets frustrated [00:06:40] sometimes when she can’t read it. And I can hear it like, never give up, never give up. It’s [00:06:45] just so cute to see.

Patrycja Galonzka: Which year were you born?

Patrycja Galonzka: 92.

Patrycja Galonzka: 92.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: So. So you don’t remember the transition of Poland from communism? [00:06:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Not so much.

Payman Langroudi: Just stories, I guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Stories from my grandfathers. [00:07:00] So I remember going around like a lot of different people who actually [00:07:05] went through this experience and myself and a few other friends from school. [00:07:10] We actually combine all articles into like a one booklet. Really? Yeah, yeah, [00:07:15] I remember we won like a competition at school. And yeah, it was so, so [00:07:20] amazing to connect.

Patrycja Galonzka: With people in.

Payman Langroudi: That country. I’ve been there twice. Okay, both [00:07:25] times to Warsaw. But the, I think in the two times I went there was like maybe a four [00:07:30] year, five year gap. In that five years, the town completely changed.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, yes. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: And now again, right now. Now it’s kind of experiencing a golden period, right. Did [00:07:40] you ever consider going back or. No.

Patrycja Galonzka: No.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think the first few years, probably [00:07:45] a few times, Because you just missed that home, your family.

Patrycja Galonzka: It [00:07:50] takes.

Payman Langroudi: Five years. I think when you move, it takes five years. I agree because for the first 2 or 3 [00:07:55] years, you fit in nowhere.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t fit in here. You don’t fit in there anymore.

Patrycja Galonzka: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:08:00] then after five years, you start thinking maybe this is home, you know, like a.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, [00:08:05] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Think.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think five years it’s. Yeah, I agree on that because [00:08:10] the first few years you just work hard, you try to enjoy the life and [00:08:15] you literally don’t know what you’re doing. And after that time, I’m like, oh, should I go back? Should I [00:08:20] stay? Then you question yourself. But when you hit that five years, you should [00:08:25] exactly know if you’re connected or actually, this is not for me. Maybe I should go back, [00:08:30] but for me, I knew it straight away. Really? After a few years that I want to stay [00:08:35] here. I love the diversity in this country. Lots of different backgrounds, [00:08:40] different people with different cultures, different languages. [00:08:45] I really, really love that.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re a curious person, you can’t.

Patrycja Galonzka: Be.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be bored [00:08:50] here in that sense, right? There’s so much.

Patrycja Galonzka: To.

Payman Langroudi: Learn from so many.

Patrycja Galonzka: Different people. Exactly. [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: But so you know, your upbringing. Okay. A lot of discipline. All of that. And [00:09:00] then you come here and you work your butt off. Is there anything that you would change? Like when [00:09:05] you say you give your daughters the same lessons? Do you feel like maybe you didn’t live [00:09:10] your 19, 20, 21 year old because you know, that’s a, that should be a carefree [00:09:15] time, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And you were building and working and all of that. Were [00:09:20] you enjoying as well? Did you, did you, would you do it differently at all? And would you tell your daughter to do it differently? [00:09:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I would definitely didn’t want it or wouldn’t like [00:09:30] to change the way she wants to build her future. Yeah. Um, I can pass my lessons [00:09:35] to her. I mean, we go through this as adults as well. You know, when you have your [00:09:40] parents, they tell you, please do a, B, C, d.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: But you might do [00:09:45] it and you may not.

Patrycja Galonzka: But you might do.

Payman Langroudi: X, y.

Patrycja Galonzka: Z.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly what I’m what I’m the way [00:09:50] the reason I’m asking you is I get I get a lot of young dentists contact me.

Patrycja Galonzka: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: For advice. What [00:09:55] should I do next? Yeah, that’s all the time. I mean, I like five, [00:10:00] six times a week. I get someone asking me something like this. Yeah. And and, you know, [00:10:05] in your 20s, one of the things you’ve got is sort of you can’t, you can’t wait to get [00:10:10] things going. You know, you haven’t got patience.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: And sometimes I’ve got a 26 year old [00:10:15] dentist asking, you know, I’m thinking about doing this, but what about doing that? And, and I think to myself, [00:10:20] if they do nothing for four years, then there’ll be a 30 year old [00:10:25] dentist. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: And yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: The time is the gold.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know, but there’ll be a 30.

Payman Langroudi: Year old and [00:10:30] there’s still a young dentist. Yeah. You could do literally nothing like sit on their hands for four years. Yeah. [00:10:35] I’m not saying do that. Yeah, but there’s an element of guilt [00:10:40] Built into a lot of people, especially like a dentist or someone from [00:10:45] age 14 has had to decide to become a dentist. Gcses, A levels, dental [00:10:50] school, all of that stuff. And so they’re so built on speed [00:10:55] that you’re thinking, hey, come on, man, go travel. And you know, like take a. [00:11:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Year out or.

Payman Langroudi: Something. Yeah. And enjoy life a little bit.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s not the end of [00:11:05] the world. You make a decision like your your uncle said to you, you make a decision. You decide to go off the [00:11:10] prosthetics, whatever it is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You can reverse the decision. It’s not the end of the world. It’s nothing. [00:11:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But people get themselves in a state about. I don’t think I’m doing enough and very [00:11:20] competitive. It’s quite hard to get in. So the people who get in are very competitive people to start with.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:11:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so that’s what I’m kind of asking, you know, like, for instance, I was trying to tell my son, take [00:11:30] one year off between school and university and um.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: He didn’t, he did it in the end. But why not? You know, like, what’s the point of all of this? Why [00:11:40] are you working here? So that you can take a year off. Somewhere along the [00:11:45] line.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think that’s what you have to make sure you understand as much. You’re [00:11:50] building something and you’ve got a passion for it. It’s amazing. But you shouldn’t sacrifice [00:11:55] the joy or the small moments that actually makes life real. Um, [00:12:00] I think it’s the balance. Yes. Because it’s so easy [00:12:05] to get trapped in that busy, you know, reactive mode. Bang bang [00:12:10] bang. Next. But I realised and I was there to, to be honest. Yeah. [00:12:15] Like constantly one qualification, next one. I want to be Leaders now. [00:12:20] I want to be practice manager. What’s next? But I think it’s very important sometimes [00:12:25] to stop and to reflect. Um, and I had someone actually who [00:12:30] told me that because I was constantly looking for new opportunities and he [00:12:35] told me, sit down and just think and see [00:12:40] what you’ve already achieved. And I remember that day I went to the coffee shop [00:12:45] and I opened my laptop and a pen and a paper, and I’ve listed exactly what I’ve managed [00:12:50] to do. Did my first article, which Daniel, was published in the bdj. [00:12:55] All my story and I’m like, actually, Patricia, well done to you. [00:13:00] But I.

BOTH: Think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good. That must have felt good.

BOTH: Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. I was so happy. And then [00:13:05] shortly after I just applied for the awards as well. Same again. Before I [00:13:10] was just too busy even thinking about it.

Payman Langroudi: What practice [00:13:15] manager of the year type thing?

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So I was highly commended last year. Yes. And [00:13:20] that was just oh, it was just like cherry on the cake for me. I [00:13:25] felt, oh, okay, that feels great. And yes, of course I want to grow more and [00:13:30] achieve more. But now it’s got that a different purpose. Yeah. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know about awards like people, some people think awards are really like, um, a negative [00:13:40] thing. Oh, really? Do you know about that?

Patrycja Galonzka: No. Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because, [00:13:45] you know, like, especially if it’s like, you know, they get like, oh, best dentist North. Yeah. [00:13:50]

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The guy who wins the award isn’t the best dentist in the North. He isn’t. Yeah. [00:13:55] The best dentist in the north might be not even in the awards, because he’s too busy being the best dentist [00:14:00] in the North.

BOTH: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then. Then the award comes out and it says, best dentist North. This cat. [00:14:05] Yeah.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And so this cat was the best [00:14:10] award entry in the North.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Which that even that [00:14:15] doesn’t make him the best dentist in the competition. Yeah, yeah. Because the award entry says, oh, what are you doing for charity? What [00:14:20] are you doing for this? He’s, like, answered these questions really well.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, by [00:14:25] the way, I don’t mind. I like it, I think like it’s, uh, anything you can get for marketing [00:14:30] or for making yourself feel like you’ve gotten somewhere. Raise the standards in general. I get [00:14:35] all the plus side of it. Yes, but sometimes you got to understand the negatives. There’s a bunch of dentists who hate awards. [00:14:40] They hate the whole culture of awards.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know a few, [00:14:45] actually.

BOTH: Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And this is kind of the reason, right? The kind of [00:14:50] the reason is that, you know, when you say this is the best or something somewhere.

BOTH: Um, [00:14:55] it.

Payman Langroudi: Gets to dentists egos, I guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh very much. Ego is the thing in [00:15:00] dentistry.

BOTH: Yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh for.

BOTH: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Which I definitely want to get to one question though, before we do.

BOTH: Yes. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: One of the things problems with our profession, I think, is that there isn’t [00:15:10] a very obvious career progression pathway. [00:15:15] Yeah. So but in your case, you’ve gone trainee dental [00:15:20] nurse, the lowest job in the practice.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: To the very top of the [00:15:25] practice. And if it was a corporate now you’d be looking at, I don’t know, a area manager or that [00:15:30] sort of thing.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what about that? I mean, did you find it that it was [00:15:35] obvious what you had to do to progress? Did you find, like, I sometimes come across principals, [00:15:40] they say I want a nurse who isn’t ambitious. I want a nurse who’s always going [00:15:45] to just turn up, do her job and leave, and then come back the next day. And you.

BOTH: Know, I hear you, though.

Payman Langroudi: Which I don’t like [00:15:50] that way of thinking at all. But what I’m saying is, in our profession, especially in the DCP side, there [00:15:55] isn’t an obvious movement. Did you find that or were you lucky and [00:16:00] you found a place that was supportive of all of that?

BOTH: Um.

Patrycja Galonzka: I would say yes and no. I [00:16:05] think you need to understand your purpose. And sometimes it takes [00:16:10] time. So sometimes you have to do things that you’re not necessarily enjoy or [00:16:15] see as this is it. This is exactly what I want to do to the rest of my life. For example, [00:16:20] for me, that was even before going to dentistry. Barista. Waitress. [00:16:25]

BOTH: Mhm.

Patrycja Galonzka: I couldn’t really see a much of progression there, but I treat [00:16:30] it as a training. I can connect with the people. I know how to save them. [00:16:35] I can get my, you know, skills better. When I went to the dentistry, started [00:16:40] as a trainee dental nurse, but my goal it was being dental hygienist or [00:16:45] healthcare management, but I tried and I just explode [00:16:50] around me what was happening. And I knew I wanted to be somewhere where I [00:16:55] can help people from both sides, people who are working with me, [00:17:00] and also people who we serve. I think that finding your purpose, [00:17:05] the why is very, very important and have that somewhere, you [00:17:10] know, it’s flashing to you every so often. This is where I want to get to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:17:15] one of those things that isn’t always obvious as well. You have to like, think about it. You have to look into yourself [00:17:20] a little bit as to why. Why is it I am doing all of this?

BOTH: Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: And Simon [00:17:25] Sinek, he’s my big inspiration. Oh, I love him. And he talks a [00:17:30] lot about why as well. Why do I want to do this? Why? And it’s so easy. [00:17:35] Oh, because I’ll need more money or because it’s you know, this is easy. This [00:17:40] is good profession. But is that really your truly why? So for me, it’s [00:17:45] easy. I want to help. I want to build something that makes difference, [00:17:50] that raises the standards in healthcare, but help people. [00:17:55] And I think what’s happening at the moment is a lot of pressure in dentistry. [00:18:00] There is a lot of pressure. So I feel like I want to help to prevent the burnout [00:18:05] and that firefighting modes that is constantly happening [00:18:10] around.

Payman Langroudi: And so then the two sides of that, when you say the patients [00:18:15] that we serve and then the team and kind of it sounds [00:18:20] obvious, isn’t it, that like a happy team will make happy patients. Yet [00:18:25] a lot of times in dentistry, we don’t prioritise keeping the team happy. [00:18:30] A lot of a lot of practices. You must have come across that, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m afraid. Yes. [00:18:35] And it’s it’s ongoing thing to be honest. I speak to a lot of people [00:18:40] and it’s not just nurses, managers. It could be clinicians [00:18:45] or principals. There is no connection between the team [00:18:50] or, you know, like something I really like the concept I heard somewhere and now I’m [00:18:55] actually trying to as well pass to other people. And the values, [00:19:00] the anti values are the unproductive behaviours in the practice. We don’t [00:19:05] talk about them. You know when you walk into the practice you’ve got beautiful posters. This [00:19:10] is our values. This is what we would like to do. This is what we expect. [00:19:15] But no one talks about the anti values such as gossip. This is not my [00:19:20] job. Blame.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s huge. Every team have it but [00:19:25] no one talks about it. Yeah, but I’m very much. Okay, let’s talk about it. Why [00:19:30] these behaviours are coming to our place.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Wherefrom why? How [00:19:35] do we prevent them? How we work together to make sure they’re not coming back. [00:19:40] It’s very, very important.

Payman Langroudi: Get into it a little bit for me. Give me an example. So [00:19:45] my example to you. I’ve worked in maybe five [00:19:50] six practices.

BOTH: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: In my career.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But I stopped a long time ago. But but [00:19:55] one, one one pattern that I saw was different [00:20:00] kind of power bases.

BOTH: Mhm. Power. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:05] classically, classically, either the manager and the head [00:20:10] nurse in one team and everyone else in another team. [00:20:15]

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The principal, the manager and the head nurse in one tower. Everyone else, [00:20:20] or even much worse than that, I think, is when, like you have the manager [00:20:25] and her friends, and then the head nurse and her friends. [00:20:30] Like two separate power bases.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s a [00:20:35] competition.

BOTH: Competition.

Payman Langroudi: Everything they say is wrong. Everything they do is wrong. And [00:20:40] then when you’re in a practice, you start to realise, okay, this is what’s going down here. Yeah. Yes. And then [00:20:45] introducing an idea into that mix, the total nightmare because we used to have [00:20:50] a practice meeting. Mhm. I was young and full of ideas, so I’d go, oh, why don’t we do [00:20:55] this, that and the other.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And even it wasn’t even the idea itself that was being argued. [00:21:00] It was like they were arguing them. The two teams were arguing each other just [00:21:05] for power, you know, just just for the concept. So how do you in that situation, how [00:21:10] do you unpack that?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s so easy to abuse your [00:21:15] power.

Payman Langroudi: You recognise it, right?

BOTH: You recognise what I’m saying? Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: It happens every so often. Even [00:21:20] when I speak to people like recruiting people as well. They always [00:21:25] mention that really? Yes. All dentists as well. Same thing. [00:21:30] I just don’t understand why. And I feel this is my mission [00:21:35] to make sure that we realise that this is actually what blocks the growth within the [00:21:40] practice, because you can have a beautiful equipment tech, beautiful practice. [00:21:45] But if your team are not aligned together.

Payman Langroudi: I guess this is the C [00:21:50] in your culture and your Cesar framework.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Yes. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: So would you would you tell me before the Cesar framework is like a framework you’ve put together for how to manage a [00:22:00] practice?

BOTH: Correct? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So go on then. Culture. I guess this goes down to culture, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Culture is the first [00:22:05] pillar. So Cesar stands for five pillars in total. So we’ve got culture empowerment, [00:22:10] system authority and results. Culture is [00:22:15] the first one because without the culture you won’t be able to tick the next pillars. [00:22:20] So it’s culture based systems.

BOTH: Let’s talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Culture. How do you how do you instil [00:22:25] a good culture in a practice where you’ve got this problem, let’s say, do you all come and agree on, I don’t know, [00:22:30] the rules of engagement. We don’t talk behind each other’s backs. Is that one of them? Like, what [00:22:35] do you do?

Patrycja Galonzka: No, because that sounds really strict.

BOTH: So tell me, you.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know, like the policies I [00:22:40] remember used to review practice rules. That even sounds too much. [00:22:45] So then we’ve made a policy in our practice which we call values. [00:22:50] So we speak to our team, what our values are, what [00:22:55] we would like to achieve, what our goals are. And we really encourage [00:23:00] our team to speak with us. So when we have a meeting, I don’t say, oh, [00:23:05] what’s your do you have any question? Because you know what happens. No, no, we don’t [00:23:10] have any questions.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the opposite of fighting match? Yeah.

BOTH: Well, yes, it. [00:23:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Can happen, but I usually like to go one by one to hear the Of perspectives because [00:23:20] it’s very important to work on things together. If you don’t work together, [00:23:25] your team can either make or break your system and the culture, as I said, the anti [00:23:30] values, they everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: You bring them up as well.

BOTH: Oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: In the team [00:23:35] you talk about.

BOTH: It, we.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talk as a generally. But when it happens, obviously [00:23:40] it’s my responsibility. You have to address it. But I think culture comes [00:23:45] from both sides as well. What you’ve just told me. It’s not just only the nurses [00:23:50] or, you know, non-clinical team. It comes from your managers, it comes from your leaders [00:23:55] and it comes from your principal.

Payman Langroudi: Principal specifically.

BOTH: Yes, yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: If they’re not present. [00:24:00]

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Obviously that reflects the rest of the team. And I believe we [00:24:05] Leaders we bring the weather to the business.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So if I will come [00:24:10] in really miserable not talking to anyone like.

BOTH: You feel [00:24:15] that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So for example, Monday. It’s so funny. Monday is not particularly [00:24:20] the, you know, favourite day to most of the people, but I feel I like Mondays. [00:24:25] I really like Mondays. So before I go to work I usually go for a walk anyway, [00:24:30] half an hour, listen to the podcast or something just to reset my mind. I [00:24:35] go to the practice and before I start to do anything, I [00:24:40] go to each team member and I greet them, ask them, how are [00:24:45] you? How was your weekend? And I just bring that positivity and they just [00:24:50] go on with it.

BOTH: So important.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. And especially on Monday.

BOTH: Yeah [00:24:55] yeah yeah yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Especially on Monday. So I think culture is something [00:25:00] you can’t just miss. And you cannot just leave it because [00:25:05] if you spot that anti value, that behaviour that you know, it [00:25:10] blocks your growth. If you just pass and you not address it, it becomes [00:25:15] a standard. And that’s the problem. And it gets harder and harder. You know, [00:25:20] like when you have these difficult conversations, no one likes them. [00:25:25]

BOTH: No.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like no one likes them. But this is our responsibility. We have [00:25:30] to speak. And I think it’s very easy. I’ve been there as well. Like you have [00:25:35] this conversation and all you hear is like, you did this wrong, this wrong, this wrong. You’ve [00:25:40] got that much time you need to improve. And you feel like, all right. Be [00:25:45] kind. Kindness, I think, is so important from both [00:25:50] sides. Management team.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Patience. When they walk into your practice, [00:25:55] they can feel it. They can see it. When you go there to a reception [00:26:00] room, sit down and the conversation that goes in between at [00:26:05] the reception, of course, people can hear it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more than even that. It’s just a vibe, [00:26:10] isn’t it?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Like you said.

Payman Langroudi: They can feel it. But it’s an interesting thing because kindness is [00:26:15] such an important part of what you’re saying, but it’s not thought of in the business [00:26:20] sort of vernacular, in the business narrative. Yeah. Kindness [00:26:25] isn’t something that soft skills.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like if [00:26:30] it’s work, you don’t have to be kind for some reason, you know, like it’s madness in a way when you think about [00:26:35] that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But on the other hand, I used to think it enlightened [00:26:40] me were like, you know, let’s, let’s be a big family.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or your team is amazing. I [00:26:45] really, really like your team. Yeah, they are just incredible.

Payman Langroudi: But we thought, let’s [00:26:50] be a big family. Yeah. Like that. I used to think that was the the ultimate goal that [00:26:55] it feels like a family, you know?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But I’ve changed my position on that now. Now, [00:27:00] now, I think you have to think of it more like a sports team or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: I completely [00:27:05] agree.

Payman Langroudi: Because, number one, you can’t fire your family. Number one.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s hard to work with your family.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:27:10] you like. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: You know what I mean? I completely agree because I had this so many times. [00:27:15] Oh, join to our practice. Our practice. We’re like a family. And I’m [00:27:20] thinking, yes, I love my sister, but to work with her probably every day, we’re very [00:27:25] different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: That could just bring a little bit more challenge, you know [00:27:30] what I mean? I completely agree. It’s a team like sport team. Achieve something together. [00:27:35] Let’s play together. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your tactic for looking forward to [00:27:40] Monday morning? Is it that you simply love your job?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m very grateful. And [00:27:45] I would say yes. So I love my job. I’ve got such a passion for it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:27:50] do you hate your home? No. I’m joking, I’m joking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. That would be like a holiday time.

BOTH: You know [00:27:55] I’m joking.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I think yes, I’ve got a big, big passion. [00:28:00] And I think I always had I feel grateful because I [00:28:05] work with an amazing people around me as well. So values again, we have [00:28:10] very similar values, similar goals. And we just want to win. [00:28:15] Like how in principle Doctor Dan, he always tell us that I want you guys [00:28:20] to win. I want to see you win. And I think that value is so [00:28:25] important because we all feel like we are on a mission. We have to win it. He’s [00:28:30] good. And it’s not like win it. In terms of, as you said before, there is a competition in [00:28:35] between, let’s say two departments. It’s to be a better version of ourselves [00:28:40] every single day when we talk about why patients should come and see us. [00:28:45] Yeah. Why? Because we offer amazing service. Yeah. But [00:28:50] why? And again, refer it to your why is very, very private practice. Yes. [00:28:55] It’s a fully private practice squad practice open post pandemic. [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Patrycja Galonzka: From zero. No momentum, no database.

Payman Langroudi: The headline numbers [00:29:05] now like how many staff have you got?

Patrycja Galonzka: So we started from four [00:29:10] very small to about 15 now.

Payman Langroudi: And how many opera [00:29:15] trees, how many rooms?

Patrycja Galonzka: We’ve got three surgeries.

Payman Langroudi: Three surgeries, working and busy.

Patrycja Galonzka: Every day. [00:29:20] Yes, yes. Very good. Yes, I’m very, very, very proud of what we’ve [00:29:25] achieved. So it’s not like we only build this the team. We now have [00:29:30] high performing practice, amazing community around us. [00:29:35] And we have the very clear membership approach, which obviously helps the [00:29:40] practice to bring that stable income. It’s like a bread and butter I guess for you. [00:29:45] But I think, yes, the value why we are so amazing, why people [00:29:50] should come to see us. And it comes from your team. First thing, if you go on the reviews, there [00:29:55] is a lot of mention about, oh, your team is great, so kind. It’s nice to see [00:30:00] that. And I think this is very important. Like you can have [00:30:05] so many, like I said, tech Equipment. But if you don’t have your team [00:30:10] together.

Payman Langroudi: So when I go, I decided I was going to meet the top 100 [00:30:15] enlightened practices. Yes. Just because I wanted to. I wanted to have some connection [00:30:20] to the market, you know, because you forget once you stop practising, you don’t have connection [00:30:25] to what’s going on out there.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And, um, so I visit these guys [00:30:30] and like you say, straight away, as soon as you walk in, you can feel something. Yes. And [00:30:35] you can imagine I must have been to a thousand more. More than a thousand practices now. Mhm. [00:30:40] And I’ve seen I’ve seen it all right. I’ve seen from the ones [00:30:45] who, when you walk in, no one even looks up.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm. [00:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not even their fault sometimes. Yeah. It’s like there’s not enough humans. There’s not enough staff in [00:30:55] the place, you know, like, maybe it’s a mixed practice for the sake of the argument. People are busy typing [00:31:00] and, and whatever. Yeah. And sometimes I stand there for like six minutes, [00:31:05] you know, No one even acknowledges. Sometimes that does happen.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah it does. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, all the way to the other side. We get some, some amazing practices [00:31:15] out there, man. Some brilliant business people like this boss of yours. Yeah. [00:31:20] Thank you. Brilliant businessman, I’m sure. Yeah. If you put him on a, like [00:31:25] a scale of all businesses, someone would say he’s not even a businessman. He’s a dentist. He’s a professional. [00:31:30] Yeah, yeah. But sometimes those guys are talents. And the talent [00:31:35] really came out during Covid. I thought, you know, when everything was changing every minute and [00:31:40] we didn’t know what was going to happen the day after tomorrow, PPE, this, that and the other furlough. And [00:31:45] you saw some operators were amazing, amazing. And they [00:31:50] could be running gigantic organisations, but they’re running a practice in Blackpool.

BOTH: Yes. [00:31:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the opposite. Right. And the opposite. And so what I’m saying to [00:32:00] you is that these things have to be worked at. Right. So give [00:32:05] me your. What are your situation? Like, would it happen if I walked into your practice? What’s [00:32:10] the standard thing that will happen because you’ve trained it that way.

BOTH: So you’re [00:32:15] going to get greeted.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, we have a lot of people knocking to the doors and it’s usually, [00:32:20] oh, sorry, the wrong shop because they think it is a coffee shop. Or they [00:32:25] explain it’s like a spa environment. So it’s not just about the look. [00:32:30] Obviously it looks really non-clinical at the start. You’ve got we’ve got diffusers as well, [00:32:35] essential oils, but it’s the team. So you will be greeted but really [00:32:40] nice team smiling, good energy. How are you today. Oh it’s great to [00:32:45] have you. Um and then would you like anything to drink. Simple as that. It doesn’t [00:32:50] cost. But if you have that connection with people because patients are coming [00:32:55] into the practices, they’re very nervous. You know, like they feel anxious. They’re [00:33:00] probably overthinking what’s going to happen? What are they going to do? Who am I going to see? [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: How much is it going to cost?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh gosh. Money of course.

BOTH: Your mind.

Patrycja Galonzka: Right? Yes. So [00:33:10] we have to make sure they feel safe. Calm.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:33:15] interesting. So sorry. I forgot the point I was trying to make with you on my way to that [00:33:20] practice here in the train, I start reading the Google reviews because you said reviews.

BOTH: Yes, [00:33:25] yes.

Payman Langroudi: There’s different ways of reading reviews. I mean, number one, you’ve got Prav and his tactical process [00:33:30] for how to get more reviews, right? So there’s some sometimes you see loads of great reviews and you think, oh, these [00:33:35] guys are good operators. Yes. Yeah. They know how to get good reviews. Yeah. But what I, the way I read [00:33:40] reviews, I always kind of have a look, look at the one star ones just to see why what that was saying. It tends [00:33:45] to be like, oh, NHS treatment, they didn’t have it or something like that. Yeah. Um, [00:33:50] but I, you know, at the top it says the words that get mentioned the most would [00:33:55] be like hygienist, 16 mentions this whitening, 12 mentions the words that get mentioned [00:34:00] the most, reviews, the key words, those come up at the top. And there’s one particular word I’m looking for when [00:34:05] I go to a practice. You don’t see it often, but every time you see that word when you get there, it’s [00:34:10] a brilliant practice.

BOTH: What is it?

Payman Langroudi: Have a guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, I think this [00:34:15] is what we’re just talking now. Team. Amazing. Team.

Payman Langroudi: Team. Yes. Yes. Yes! But. [00:34:20] No.

BOTH: What is it?

Payman Langroudi: I have one more guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: It [00:34:25] can’t be culture. I [00:34:30] really don’t [00:34:35] know.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in the podcast. In a podcast, silence is [00:34:40] the best thing. It’s like it’s almost built up tension.

BOTH: Yeah. So it’s [00:34:45] just.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping some silence. No. Um. Feel. Feel.

BOTH: Okay. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: They make you feel so comfortable. The way they make you feel, feel, feel, feel, feel. Such a great word.

Patrycja Galonzka: Interesting. [00:34:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, we should look up yours and see if it’s there.

BOTH: Yeah, I hope so, yeah. But [00:35:00] wow.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s.

BOTH: Just.

Patrycja Galonzka: Got me here.

BOTH: What I realise.

Payman Langroudi: What I realise every time I see, feel [00:35:05] and I get there. People greet me at the door, people smiling at each other.

BOTH: Mhm. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, everyone’s kind of on time and stuff, you know.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Disorganisation [00:35:15] thing going on because it takes organisation to make people feel good. You know, it’s [00:35:20] like.

BOTH: It’s.

Patrycja Galonzka: A foundation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a you have to have organisation.

BOTH: First before.

Payman Langroudi: People can [00:35:25] be smiling at each other.

BOTH: Right.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What was the second one?

Patrycja Galonzka: Culture [00:35:30] or team? Outside team. Yeah.

BOTH: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. But. Caesar.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh. Caesar. Empowerment. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Empowerment.

BOTH: Go on. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Same again. I’ve learned this from my [00:35:40] lessons. You have to empower your people in order to [00:35:45] not just progress, but to create that sustainable growth within [00:35:50] the practice. The problem is that, and I had this in the practice I used to [00:35:55] work before. I hear this every time. The practice relies on just a few people [00:36:00] and the people that are strong, they rely on the goodwill that [00:36:05] works for a short run. But for a longer run, it’s [00:36:10] going to break. Yeah. Let’s say when it gets busy, very busy. [00:36:15] Standards drop. Someone leaves, someone is off [00:36:20] sick, and then it creates that chaos, the firefighting. So [00:36:25] I’ve learned this. And now within our practice, we are very heavy on [00:36:30] empowerment. Empowerment with the systems. So we create the systems [00:36:35] for our team that they can easily follow and they have that ownership. When [00:36:40] you have the ownership, you feel more responsible for the job that [00:36:45] you do. So it’s not like, oh, this is just my job. They feel really excited and [00:36:50] I love to see when you have your team members that they have a task, that they’ve [00:36:55] never done it before. And they’re like, oh, am I able to do this? And when you see [00:37:00] them step in into that strength.

Payman Langroudi: This is the comfort zone.

BOTH: Thing. Yeah. [00:37:05] Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Very important. I feel so satisfied. And then if you [00:37:10] don’t.

BOTH: People don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Like change. So.

BOTH: Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? What do you do to encourage them to step [00:37:15] into the comfort zone? Is it do you do you? For instance, one thing I’ve noticed is very important for [00:37:20] your team to feel like if there’s a mistake, it’s better than if they [00:37:25] never tried.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, totally.

Payman Langroudi: So mistakes are okay. In fact, if there aren’t mistakes, [00:37:30] we’re not trying things.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: So that giving them that confidence. Yeah.

BOTH: Yes. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: I think kind of an empowerment thing.

BOTH: Right.

Patrycja Galonzka: Lead by example. So I think great [00:37:40] leaders we don’t have all the answers. I think you sometimes you need to [00:37:45] admit it. Well, I’m not too sure about it. Leave that with me. But I think [00:37:50] we should ask better questions and Micromanagement. We know [00:37:55] it’s obviously something quite common and easily to be done. Again, let [00:38:00] them be. Give them the resources. Make sure they understand and [00:38:05] they’re happy to go to try. And as you just said, mistakes and [00:38:10] errors. I like them.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t punish.

BOTH: Them.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know it’s opportunity to grow and [00:38:15] whatever happens and they oh I’m sorry. No, let’s sit down. So what happened exactly [00:38:20] why this happened. And for me, I always feel whatever goes wrong, [00:38:25] I think this is my fault because they are they they were [00:38:30] not clear what to do. Or maybe the system wasn’t good enough. So [00:38:35] then we sit down together. What’s the problem? Where is the mistake? How can [00:38:40] we prevent this? What is their solution? And I love this. Something happens [00:38:45] and then I’ve got my practice operation lead. She comes in. This is what happened, [00:38:50] Patricia. But I’ve got this solution. Are you happy with me to go ahead and do this? [00:38:55]

BOTH: Now we get.

Payman Langroudi: Back to.

BOTH: Culture. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: And then what happens? She [00:39:00] does this with the next person and the next person. And then you create that [00:39:05] leadership. So it’s the great book I read. It’s called One Minute Manager. [00:39:10] Yeah. So that’s basically what it is. And then myself, I’ve got [00:39:15] the time to plan, to think, to reflect, to review what’s [00:39:20] happening.

BOTH: Because.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not taking care of all the bullshit in the middle.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like a firefighting constantly. I’ve [00:39:25] been there. Something breaks. You quickly run to fix.

BOTH: It, fix it yourself.

Patrycja Galonzka: Sometimes it’s [00:39:30] someone is struggling. Oh, let me do this for you. That’s wrong. You [00:39:35] should let them to try and time. Give them time. Check [00:39:40] on them as well. It’s not like, oh, this is what I expect from you to do. That’s it. Make sure [00:39:45] they understand, but make sure you check on them. Make sure it’s actually measurable and Interact [00:39:50] and you’ve got some time. Okay. This is the task. This is how we do it. This is [00:39:55] what good looks like. This is where I expect. And if they struggle, absolutely [00:40:00] fine. Why do you need more support? Do you need more training? [00:40:05] Or maybe same again, go back to the system.

Payman Langroudi: So did you learn this [00:40:10] just from books?

Patrycja Galonzka: Books, working hard in books, in the clinic, connecting [00:40:15] with people. But I think you have to get out from your [00:40:20] work environment. And I’m very much about this, not just [00:40:25] dentistry, because this it will work in GP practice, any [00:40:30] organisation or any organisation. Exactly. So you have to expose [00:40:35] yourself outside of your environment where you actually [00:40:40] day to day basis you go to and you learn and something amazing [00:40:45] from someone. I’m learning now, like you just mentioned before. Patterns. Spot [00:40:50] the patterns and you see the pattern. It happens. And then [00:40:55] now for me, when I see the pattern, I want to find a solution.

Payman Langroudi: Really resonates. [00:41:00] What you said to me about when something goes wrong. It’s an opportunity to learn. I [00:41:05] remember when I was a dentist, I used to love dealing with complaints. [00:41:10]

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And it was like a challenge. It was like, how do I make this the [00:41:15] best reaction to a complaint and turn the patient from [00:41:20] someone unhappy to someone who’s going around telling everyone, you’re brilliant?

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, the, [00:41:25] the sometimes you can even take it too far, right? I mean, I’m not going to charge you for [00:41:30] this, this or this.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m going to make sure this never happens again or whatever it was. Yeah. [00:41:35] But I used to love the process and it was so interesting. It was just a reframing in your [00:41:40] own head because a complaint used to ruin your month before [00:41:45] you take it personally.

BOTH: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: You think the person’s an idiot? [00:41:50] What you said about taking the blame for stuff I’ve now come to realise. It’s [00:41:55] the happiest way of working is to take full responsibility for everything [00:42:00] that goes wrong yourself. Yeah, especially if you’re in a leadership role.

BOTH: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In the [00:42:05] end, you could have fired that person. You could have not hired that person. Yeah. In the end. [00:42:10] Whereas if you don’t do that, then your happiness is [00:42:15] predicated on that person’s day. Yeah. So sometimes [00:42:20] that person comes in and has a bad day. Now you’re having a bad day. Whereas if you [00:42:25] take the blame for that person having a bad day. I didn’t train him. I didn’t give him the incentives, [00:42:30] I didn’t. Whatever it was, I hired them in the first place.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now it’s your your actions [00:42:35] that dictate whether you’re going to be happy or not and not someone else’s. And especially when you’re a manager [00:42:40] of 16 people, that’s 16 variables that you’re going to have [00:42:45] to take the blame for.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Which is better than saying, you know, each one of them [00:42:50] is a problem. I’m a problem. That’s that’s the best way to take it. Even if it wasn’t you [00:42:55] directly, you know.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. I think this is very important for the readers [00:43:00] to understand. And as you just mentioned about the complaints, we should change [00:43:05] the mindset of how we feel and see that because we tend to, [00:43:10] as you said, take this too much personally. Yeah. Um, and I think this is where [00:43:15] you have to be very logical and then again, involve your team, because [00:43:20] if you just deal with the complaint by yourself, yes, [00:43:25] you can learn from it, but it may happen again because your team wasn’t [00:43:30] aware about it. So you have to actually sit down together and learn together. [00:43:35] And as you said, it’s a team approach. We on this together, [00:43:40] we learn together, we make mistakes. Together We win together and [00:43:45] celebrate together.

Payman Langroudi: Do you? Do you go out and stuff?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So we celebrate [00:43:50] in different ways. Going out number one. But our celebration as well, [00:43:55] it’s creating the social media content, which is like a twice a month, but [00:44:00] we have a very chilled day. Um, and then now we came up with a different sort of idea [00:44:05] to do some reality show. So it’s such a fun day. [00:44:10] We usually like get some pizza or chips as well. But yeah, we, [00:44:15] we do celebrate together for sure because it’s very, very important to [00:44:20] keep us going to make us a line.

BOTH: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I do some in practice training [00:44:25] for enlighten and it’s part of a like a process, right? [00:44:30] It’s a process of we’re going to try for one week doing this new idea [00:44:35] of how.

BOTH: We’re going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s kind of like a, we’re going to talk to every patient about the colour of their teeth [00:44:40] and this sort of thing.

BOTH: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s different ways of doing it. Yeah. Sometimes it could be reception led where [00:44:45] they ask for permission.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: For shade taking. Sometimes it’s the dentists all doing [00:44:50] it. Sometimes it’s hygienist led. Anyway, it’s kind of, you know, no one likes change. Yeah. [00:44:55] So if I say in next week we’re going to do this, it’s like extra hassle for everyone, [00:45:00] right? So one thing that I say to the principals is you need to [00:45:05] do something in that week to make up for the fact that I’ve just [00:45:10] written their week by saying, you have to do all this stuff. Yeah. And then I asked the question, what would it take? [00:45:15] What? What is it? What, what could you change about work to make [00:45:20] it look forward to coming to work more than you already look forward to coming [00:45:25] to work.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ll be amazed. The number of people and the vast majority of cases, [00:45:30] everyone just sitting there and can’t think of what to say. And then some people, some, some people [00:45:35] say, oh, give me more money or something. Yeah. But that’s a different part of my talk. Yeah, yeah. That’s more. [00:45:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Transactional.

Payman Langroudi: There is that there is that, hey, if we hit this target, everyone gets a night out or whatever. [00:45:45] That’s another part. But this part that says, what do we have to do to make it [00:45:50] more fun to come to work? Yeah. Amazing how that should be front [00:45:55] and centre. Yeah. The most, one of the most important conversations that should be had. How [00:46:00] can we make work more fun? Yeah. And yet so [00:46:05] rare. So rare that anyone has anything to say on the matter. Yeah. Sometimes [00:46:10] there’s this little look on people’s faces that they’re never going to do anything like that. Yeah. [00:46:15] Sometimes everyone’s drawing a blank, and then I have to give them an example. Yeah. And I say, oh, what about [00:46:20] every day we finish at 3:00 instead of 5:00? And suddenly people like sit up [00:46:25] and say, wait a minute. Yeah, that would work. Right? Um, and then, you know, you talk about [00:46:30] the effect of that on the practice, but the effect of selling five teeth whitening a day to [00:46:35] the practice as well. Yeah. As, as a, you know, it makes sense. You know, like, [00:46:40] how much do you guys charge for a license? You know.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s five, nine five.

Payman Langroudi: So any [00:46:45] number times five, nine five is a big number. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it can be transformational [00:46:50] if you talk to every single patient. Mhm. You could do, I don’t know, one per dentist [00:46:55] per day in that period where you really focus. Yeah. It could make up for all sorts [00:47:00] of things that you could provide to the team. Beats a coffee, whatever you want every day, if you want. [00:47:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not a question anyone can answer. It’s it’s such a funny thing. It’s [00:47:10] like, it’s almost like it’s a bad question or something. People are like, like looking [00:47:15] down.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I agree, and I think that’s the same again, people [00:47:20] sometimes are afraid to speak up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um, so [00:47:25] I would say this is undervalue and same again. Yeah, yeah. Because what happened is [00:47:30] when the meeting is finished, they go, they leave and they talk. Oh, I wish [00:47:35] I could say this. Oh, you know what? Maybe we should do this. So this is the [00:47:40] part of actually leadership and your anti values. If they feel safe. [00:47:45] And then if you are connected together they’re going to talk. They’re going to bring [00:47:50] the ideas on the table together. But if that connection [00:47:55] is not there, the culture I’m referring to, they stay quiet. Culture [00:48:00] eats strategy.

Payman Langroudi: Every day man. It does. Yes. So give me some concrete examples [00:48:05] of some of the management kind of tools that you have. I mean, let’s talk let’s [00:48:10] talk KPIs, for instance, which KPIs would you say are the key ones to look out [00:48:15] for.

Patrycja Galonzka: For the practice?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So because there is a problem of too many [00:48:20] KPIs. Yeah. You can’t track.

Patrycja Galonzka: Everything. No.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s you’re not doing anything about [00:48:25] these numbers. So for me, the fewer the better. But key ones like what’s, what are [00:48:30] key KPIs that you look at?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think for each practice will be obviously Dear friends. [00:48:35] Um, and as you just said, you don’t want to track everything because that [00:48:40] will be overwhelming. I think you need to choose up to ten probably [00:48:45] to start with. That’s from Chris Barrow. By the way, the article I’ve read, [00:48:50] it was just amazing. The ten KPIs you should really track, but let’s say five [00:48:55] you need to make sure that the KPIs that you track, you [00:49:00] know, that they deliver that sustainable growth. [00:49:05] And, you know, by seeing them and reviewing them, your business stay [00:49:10] healthy. Yeah. So we are private practice that would be different for NHS because [00:49:15] that’s very heavy on Udas. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or if you were like an ortho practice or whatever. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Invisalign [00:49:20] referral practice. Yes. But I think private practice.

Payman Langroudi: Come on. What are the key ones. [00:49:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: So how many new patients are coming through each month? How many new exams, [00:49:30] how many new consoles, conversion of how many new patient exams [00:49:35] we convert to, the memberships, of how many new consoles we convert to [00:49:40] stage two of our consultation, or to actually the treatment recalls. [00:49:45] Absolutely, yes. Because that’s your loyal, you know, community that’s still [00:49:50] happy to come in and they want to see you. So that’s, you know, that’s coming in finance, [00:49:55] of course you need to track. And we just recently [00:50:00] added something which is Google reviews. So we did [00:50:05] it for some time, which was working really well. We tried a different systems as well, like [00:50:10] having someone in the background just to send the sms’s or emails. [00:50:15] But then I went through recently to local practices around us and I’m like, [00:50:20] if they can do it, we can do it. So I sat down with my [00:50:25] team and I’m like, look guys, I think we can be better. We just [00:50:30] have a board in our office and I said two a day. I know we can do [00:50:35] two a day, and we have 4 or 5 a day now for the last two weeks. And [00:50:40] I’m like, amazing. So like I said, you can track a lot, [00:50:45] but I think you need to make sure that the numbers you see, you know, your business [00:50:50] is healthy and then KPIs, that doesn’t really refer only to the data [00:50:55] and the numbers, but your team. So how often do you want to. [00:51:00] Once you know your staff turnover your sickness [00:51:05] as well.

Payman Langroudi: I had Andy Acton on recently from Frank Taylor Associates and [00:51:10] he was saying sickness is when he’s looking at a practice, you know, valuing a practice. [00:51:15] Yes. The number of sick days for him is a massive [00:51:20] sort of indicator of culture.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh gosh. Yes. It’s like a red flag. Yeah, [00:51:25] absolutely. Yeah. When it’s too much sickness is happening.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s absolutely nothing you can [00:51:30] do about it. I mean, if someone calls up and says, I’m sick, that’s it. There’s no there’s no.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, you have to follow [00:51:35] the procedures. Yeah. You have to follow the procedures. But the same again. You need to track [00:51:40] it. Yeah. You need to be aware. The reason of the sickness, how often [00:51:45] how you track it. What’s your action, how you’re following up. You know, we all [00:51:50] have a different story. We all have a different luggages that we carrying [00:51:55] and then us as managers, we need to respect that. You can’t [00:52:00] just, you know, assume things happens or that person does this [00:52:05] because of that. You have to just connect with them as well.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:52:10] clear are you on, for instance, if I said how many white [00:52:15] things are you doing? Can you pull that up very quickly? And are you are you looking at that [00:52:20] sort of stuff? The number of different treatments. Pound per second per chair type approach [00:52:25] we do.

Patrycja Galonzka: But we still actually working on it. So [00:52:30] that’s also my mission because I’ve noticed there is a lot of systems that they [00:52:35] track your numbers. Now you can easily connect to your software, but I found [00:52:40] that it’s still not enough so they can track your conversion per clinician, [00:52:45] how many treatments they managed to convert, your recall systems [00:52:50] and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard of Medfin and Dental CFO? No, [00:52:55] I had both of them on here. Um, they’re like AI systems that, [00:53:00] um, you almost talk to it like ChatGPT and ask a question [00:53:05] about your, your patients, um, like, like literally you say, so which one of my [00:53:10] associates is doing best right now? And, and figures [00:53:15] it out. Um, and it’s connected to everything like back end, basically the whole business [00:53:20] is that the plumbing to all the different.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’ll have to check.

Payman Langroudi: Systems. Yeah. [00:53:25] But where I’m going with it is with AI, you’re going to have a lot more. I mean, give it another [00:53:30] three years I reckon. Yeah. There’s going to be the patient’s AI will [00:53:35] contact the practice’s AI to make the appointment. There’ll be no human involved in that. [00:53:40] Yeah. Because AI to AI.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ai to humans a bit. [00:53:45] You know, am I talking to a machine and whatever it is. Yes. Yeah. Which, by the way, I don’t know about you. I’m [00:53:50] not interested in phoning Amazon to buy something from Amazon. [00:53:55] Mhm. Yeah. I don’t want to talk to a human. I want to just go on their pick my thing and get out. Yeah. It’s [00:54:00] much easier not talking to a human to buy my deodorant at Amazon than [00:54:05] to talk to a human and say, yeah, so. So we think, oh, you know, we’re a healthcare business. [00:54:10] We’re a people business. And all people are nervous. We’re always going to need people. But [00:54:15] very quickly, these things can change. You know, there was a there was a shop owner in Gdansk [00:54:20] saying, I’m in the shop. People come have a chat with me. You know, the whole [00:54:25] Prav thing. The old lady. It’s real. But there’s also this. You [00:54:30] know, like, push a few buttons and the thing arrives. So, so so going forward, [00:54:35] we’re going to have much more ability to look at numbers.

Patrycja Galonzka: I can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: Much more time [00:54:40] for our people to care for our patients, because they’re not busy filling [00:54:45] forms and things manually. Spreadsheets, all of that will be done by machines. [00:54:50] And I was going to ask you, so do you use AI?

Patrycja Galonzka: We do. Yes, we do AI we [00:54:55] use for team training. So we use a software called Synthesia. [00:55:00] Yeah. It’s amazing. I really, really enjoy using it.

Payman Langroudi: And explain it just from beginning, like [00:55:05] what.

Patrycja Galonzka: Happens, you know, like old fashioned way you do that team presentation [00:55:10] through PowerPoint and now people use Canva or Canva as well. You can use AI [00:55:15] prompts with Canva.

Payman Langroudi: To make the thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh my God. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like the design.

Patrycja Galonzka: Literally. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Kidding me.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So before I remember just, you know, doing Canva manually [00:55:25] uploading all the documents, but now I just write the specific command [00:55:30] what exactly what I want on my presentation. There we go.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:55:35] team had many.

Patrycja Galonzka: Slides and you produce a few like examples. Then you can [00:55:40] basically take it from it, do a lot of like few tweaks, tailor it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. Yeah. But this [00:55:45] is more for the team training. So we have a lot of videos that [00:55:50] we did. So whoever starts the practice with the practice, they’ve got like an onboarding. [00:55:55] So they part of actually this videos to start and [00:56:00] you can create your avatar there. And I did mine. I played with it. It was [00:56:05] so cool. So I’ve uploaded my real photo, but I can put myself in [00:56:10] any scenario. I was even on the moon.

Payman Langroudi: Talking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talking and looking literally like [00:56:15] you. So you do a team training. So it’s not only just the Presentation, [00:56:20] but the AI is on the presentation at the same time and [00:56:25] talks to you.

Payman Langroudi: Is it good?

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s very good.

Payman Langroudi: Like it looks like it’s you talking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, [00:56:30] yes. So it saves time. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And when you’re writing like a LinkedIn post for your consulting [00:56:35] business, are you learning that as well?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes. So I use AI. [00:56:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what I found right? The best thing about it is that when before, if I was going to write a LinkedIn [00:56:45] article from 0 to 1, from a blank piece of paper to, [00:56:50] I don’t know, just six headings. Yeah, that piece would take so long [00:56:55] to go, oh, no, no, that’s wrong. And it would take so long to get started. Yeah. Whereas now [00:57:00] you just say it to the thing, to Gemini or whatever, and then it immediately produces [00:57:05] something and it’s giving you your start. Now you can just put that into LinkedIn if [00:57:10] you want, but that doesn’t make sense. But the fact that you’ve got your start means that just you’re just a [00:57:15] much better place, aren’t you? That’s, that’s the key thing about it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, but I think what [00:57:20] you’ve just said, it’s very important. You have to review it before it goes there. And [00:57:25] it’s very easy done. You don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it makes mistakes. [00:57:30]

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s not you. Yeah. Like wherever you look, you know, it’s AI. But [00:57:35] take your time. Do the points, spend time actually thinking of what you want [00:57:40] to write. And as you said, say it too. It’s so cool. I used to write, now I just [00:57:45] say it. Yeah. And you produce you the start as you’ve mentioned. Yeah. And saves you [00:57:50] time.

Payman Langroudi: I find kids are very like ahead of this game. Yeah. Because they’re not allowed to [00:57:55] use AI for their homework, which is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, but they figured it out, right? They figured out [00:58:00] how to use AI and then bring it back into humanised.ai. It’s called yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Kids [00:58:05] are clever.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good. I’d be disappointed if my kids weren’t understanding how to get around these rules. You know, like [00:58:10] it’s important they know, like, you know, they know how to hack stuff.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And another thing I think is it should be 100. You can use [00:58:20] whatever the hell you like. Yeah, because those are the tools that are out there. Yeah. Okay, here’s the question. [00:58:25] The teacher sets a question. Go berserk man. Use Gemini. Use whatever you want. Yeah. [00:58:30] Use ChatGPT. Yeah. Why not? Like it should be available in exams. Yeah. [00:58:35] Because, you know, we’ve all got everyone has the tool now. It’s the same. It’s [00:58:40] the the race is flat, you know, like, and then it’s as you know, it’s what you [00:58:45] ask it. That’s the question. Right. The important thing, not, you know, the questions, [00:58:50] the important thing, not the answer now.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, so [00:58:55] we use our practice. Um, but we need to make sure that we [00:59:00] use it safely.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense.

Patrycja Galonzka: Data data patient safety as well. [00:59:05] Yeah. So, um, I reach out to actually a few compliances, uh, companies [00:59:10] asking, do you have any AI policy in place that I can actually [00:59:15] review it and have a look and implement to our practice. I had [00:59:20] zero and I’m like, what?

Payman Langroudi: Well, data policy [00:59:25] itself is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Not just data because, you know, as you just said, receptionist, [00:59:30] let’s say comes to the complaint. Yeah, they will just copy paste all the patient details. [00:59:35] You don’t know where this goes to be honest. Right? Yeah. [00:59:40] So I think yes. Use it if it reduced the repetitive [00:59:45] tasks. Absolutely. It improves the patient’s journey. Team [00:59:50] communication business data. I’m for it are using it [00:59:55] as well. And make sure you train your team. So we have like not a digital [01:00:00] sessions. But I’ve always been fascinated by about AI and computers. [01:00:05] So I sit down with them. We agree on what tools we use, how [01:00:10] we use them, and what do we not say or what do we not [01:00:15] do? And everyone seems to be fine and very confident with it. [01:00:20] But at the start, of course, oh my God, AI, I had a few people. I don’t want to [01:00:25] use it. It’s too much. I’d rather to write the email.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t like change. People [01:00:30] don’t like change.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. Yes. That’s the mindset we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got a few people here who’ve really [01:00:35] taken it on and they’ve accelerated compared.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s it. Embraced.

Payman Langroudi: Accelerated.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I was having a meeting yesterday with one of our team [01:00:45] and a scientist that she had found a like a toothpaste expert. [01:00:50] Yeah. And I was just sitting watching her talking to this person. Yeah. Four [01:00:55] months ago, she didn’t know the first thing about toothpaste. Nothing. She knew nothing. Yeah. In the last four months, [01:01:00] she figured out some, like the shape of the rod of hydroxyapatite. And how do you test [01:01:05] that? And so on. And the scientist is giving her the answers. And it’s because she’s the type [01:01:10] who’s just like, anything happens. She’s on there going. Yeah, yeah. Although at [01:01:15] the same time there’s two things. One, when you ask her a question about [01:01:20] something you know a lot about, sometimes the answer’s not as good [01:01:25] as you think. Yeah. When you know a lot about something. But even that’s improved even [01:01:30] that’s improved a lot depends which model you use and which, you know, the paid model or whatever. Yeah. But [01:01:35] the second thing is this girl. Yeah, she’s got ChatGPT down as the ultimate master. [01:01:40] Like insomuch as you know, we’ll say, okay, what should we do regarding this toothpaste? [01:01:45] I’ll say do this. She’ll say, but ChatGPT says, do that. Yeah. And, and, and I’m like, [01:01:50] okay, ChatGPT can say whatever it likes. Yeah, yeah, I think we should do this still. Yeah. And, but, you [01:01:55] know, she’s over reliant.

Patrycja Galonzka: We need to protect that human side.

Speaker 7: But [01:02:00] do you think it’s possible? It’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: Here. Your daughter could marry a robot.

Patrycja Galonzka: I [01:02:05] hope. No.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but but you know what I mean. Like, I [01:02:10] mean, okay, let me, let me give let me give you this example. Yeah. My daughter is 16. She’s [01:02:15] saying she wants to be a dentist. Okay, great. I’m a dentist. My wife’s a dentist. [01:02:20] Great. It’d be nice. We own enlightened. It’d be nice if someone becomes a dentist. Yes, but [01:02:25] by the time she’s a dentist, will be eight years time. Yeah, in [01:02:30] eight years? Yeah. Surely a robot’s going to be doing that job. I mean, why not? [01:02:35] What’s stopping it? Eight years time. Like the brain. Yeah. What is the dentist? He’s [01:02:40] a brain. His eyes and his hands. Yeah. The brain’s already [01:02:45] better than ours. The brains, their eyes. Come on. Think like the best camera. [01:02:50] Whatever. X-ray vision, whatever. The eyes are going to be great. And then you’re telling me they can’t do [01:02:55] hands like they’ll do hands that come out of hands? They’ll be like.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, no. [01:03:00]

Payman Langroudi: I can see that eight years time.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then people say, oh, dentistry. People are [01:03:05] scared. They want a human. Okay, put a human, put a person. Yeah. And I a [01:03:10] very, very kind person. Yeah. But the actual work, eight years [01:03:15] time, I just feel like it’s not going to be a dentist doing the job.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I can see that too. [01:03:20] I mean, there is pros and cons, like with everything, what we do. [01:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you know Waymo with Waymo, the way it works is one driver drives [01:03:30] 50 cars. Yeah. So the cars are driving themselves until [01:03:35] they hit a situation they don’t understand. Then they go back to the driver and the driver handles [01:03:40] that one. And then when that one’s done, one of the other 49, when they hit a situation, [01:03:45] it might end up being like that. You know, one dentist is doing 100 fillings. There’s robots [01:03:50] doing the filling. When they hit a situation, the dentist comes and takes over. Wow. Something like that. Maybe. [01:03:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Look, I can see that for sure. [01:04:00] I’ve seen a lot of things on the internet and like the robots [01:04:05] jumping over, running cleaning, you know. I mean, it [01:04:10] does make sense. Like, we use a lot of robots even in the kitchen. Yeah. Oh, [01:04:15] like now at work as well in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So then with AI and robotics and all that, [01:04:20] the things where there’s elasticity of demand. So [01:04:25] there are some things that if you could make, if you could increase the supply, [01:04:30] it’ll increase the demand. So let me give you an example. Like my brother’s a radiologist in [01:04:35] hospital.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So they would like to every time you hit your head give you an MRI. [01:04:40] Yeah. But the cost wise, it’s not every time if you hit your head and [01:04:45] you feel a bit dizzy and whatever concussion, then they’ll give you an MRI. But [01:04:50] they would like to do more of those. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Doctors generally would like to take [01:04:55] more investigations.

Patrycja Galonzka: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So as AI and robotics, everything gets [01:05:00] more more investigations can be done. So the supply demand side of that [01:05:05] will go up. Yeah, but there are other jobs, like, let’s say, the person who handles complaints [01:05:10] in your practice. Yes. Yeah. You probably. Um.

Patrycja Galonzka: And my practice operationally, [01:05:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The number of complaints won’t go up. Yeah. [01:05:20] Handling of the complaints will be done by a robot. Mhm. Yeah. But the number won’t [01:05:25] go up, so that job is in danger. Yeah, yeah. [01:05:30] Whereas the other job where the number will go up. Yes. As cost goes down, that job won’t [01:05:35] be so in danger. Mhm. Yeah. But it’s a worry. It’s a worry insomuch as if 30% [01:05:40] of the population lose their jobs, which is what they’re saying might happen. Who’s going to buy everything? [01:05:45] You know, like. Yes, yes. What’s going to happen to that 30%? [01:05:50]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. It’s a it’s a lot of unknown. Yes. For sure. [01:05:55] Like we can predict, we can think what is going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the first time, though, that [01:06:00] you can’t really tell what’s going to be like in 3 or 4 years time.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely, yes. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because throughout history, even when the internet came out, you could kind of say, yeah, three [01:06:10] years time, you could kind of see what’s around the corner. Mhm. But now it’s really tough to [01:06:15] say, you know, it’s like it is.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it can be very overwhelming. Yeah, it can be very overwhelming. [01:06:20] And especially like for us in dentistry, our [01:06:25] AI can do X-rays. Ai can now answer your phone. Ai can do your [01:06:30] data and then ask us and managers as well, or leaders, we [01:06:35] need to make sure that we actually understand it, and then we can use it. [01:06:40] And the team feels confident as well to use it because it’s so easy to just get overwhelmed [01:06:45] and then you end up, I’m not doing anything. Yeah. And then you still [01:06:50] in that manual process, which is wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Patrycja Galonzka: You should [01:06:55] embrace it. I’m not saying use it all the time for everything. Take [01:07:00] step by step. And I still have a lot to learn.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:07:05] very early days yet.

Patrycja Galonzka: But I’m very excited for sure. Very excited [01:07:10] if that can help us. People behind the scenes and our patients. [01:07:15] I’m for it.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about business models that [01:07:20] you’ve seen that are different. When [01:07:25] I say business models, it could be patient journeys that are different. So [01:07:30] we’re doing this. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. We’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m coming. Are you? Yes. I’m very [01:07:35] excited. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So one of the features of it is we’re going to have um, different patient [01:07:40] journeys that are working well, like, like Ted style, like 20 minute presentations. [01:07:45] Yeah. But there’s different patient journeys. So one, one, one person, for instance, within [01:07:50] one, two years, two years, they’ve got each [01:07:55] room producing half £1 million within two years. And from a squat. [01:08:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And their whole thing is about filtering patients, saying no [01:08:05] to patients. And only the ones that that are correct end up sitting [01:08:10] in front of you. And then once they’re sitting in front of you, they’re going to go ahead with comprehensive treatment [01:08:15] because they filtered them like one thing they don’t do is treat toothache pain. [01:08:20] They when someone calls up and says, I’m in pain, they go, sorry, that’s not us. And [01:08:25] they refer them out to a different practice. Yeah. Because they’re saying that patient hasn’t [01:08:30] been through our filter.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s so interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So that’s a different [01:08:35] patient journey.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or there’s another one in Scotland. Amber. She’s got she’s [01:08:40] running privately, fully privately. But therapist led. Yeah. [01:08:45] So most of the work is being done by therapists. Mhm. And she’s [01:08:50] training her therapists up to like, MSC level. Wow. In, like, minimally invasive dentistry. [01:08:55] Um, there are specialists. There are dentists as well. Yes, yes. But the therapists charge exactly [01:09:00] the same price as the dentists for the for the restorations. Because why not if they’re trained to [01:09:05] the same standard. And so she’s done a killing. She’s doing really, really well. Or [01:09:10] there’s one guy he’s I don’t know, he’s bought his practice for £240,000. [01:09:15] Four years later he sold it for 3.2 million by. So then he’s opened [01:09:20] it seven days a week.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Each associate is allowed to [01:09:25] go down one particular route. So if one of them is endo, the [01:09:30] next one can’t be endo. The next one is ortho.

Patrycja Galonzka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: The next one’s [01:09:35] uh, full mouth, the next one’s surgery. Then he makes those associates go to, um, [01:09:40] masters level that they have to go study part time and just get really, really [01:09:45] good at that job. Um, then he gets the youngest person in the team, like a 27 [01:09:50] year old dentist and calls that person the clinical director. Yeah. [01:09:55] And the idea behind that is their closest to university, and they haven’t been polluted [01:10:00] by the financial side. Yeah, the business side. So they set the [01:10:05] sort of the educational empowerment.

Patrycja Galonzka: Hey. Yes, that’s definitely empowerment. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s open seven days a week because everyone in the team works one weekend in [01:10:15] five. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So is a rotation. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And he pays the full days [01:10:20] salary on the Saturday and Sunday. But on Saturday it’s a short day. On Sunday it’s an even shorter day. [01:10:25] Yeah. Yeah. And even he does it. He does the weekends as well. So it’s open seven days a week. And then [01:10:30] he reinvests quite a lot, you know, to make all this happen you have to reinvest.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Of course. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So these are these are alternative journeys right. Alternative ideas industry. Have you got [01:10:40] any.

Patrycja Galonzka: Hmm.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got one. Why do you think about it? What [01:10:45] about your lifetime guarantee on dentistry, [01:10:50] but charge double the price? Yes. [01:10:55] How much do you guys charge for a crown?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, if you ask me the cost, I’m not really in [01:11:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It’ll be. It’ll be like, let’s say it’ll be like.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s about.

Payman Langroudi: £900 or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: No less than that. [01:11:05] £700 possibly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: £500. Yeah. You have a new crown. Yeah. It’s [01:11:10] £1,000 crown. Double the price. Yeah. But this crown, it’s got a lifetime guarantee on it. Yeah. [01:11:15] Now you sell it to the patient based on lifetime guarantee, right? That’s [01:11:20] that’s why it’s this price.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a lifetime guarantee on it. You’re going to have to do a [01:11:25] great job because you don’t want it to fail.

Patrycja Galonzka: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Lifetime guarantee.

Patrycja Galonzka: So you don’t need to see that patient [01:11:30] again to.

Payman Langroudi: Replace.

Patrycja Galonzka: It. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Once you’ve done a lot of these, some of them will fail. Like, [01:11:35] I don’t know, 18 years time if you’re still there.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going to fail. The guy already [01:11:40] paid twice for it. Yeah. All of them paid twice to start with. So you can replace [01:11:45] all of them. Not you’re not going to replace all of them.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But whatever you replace, you should do with your [01:11:50] big smile on your face because you paid twice for it anyway. You paid double to start with. Yeah. [01:11:55] You say to patients, our USP is we’re the only practice [01:12:00] in the town and the country. Wherever you want that there’s a lifetime guarantee. Why do we do it? Because [01:12:05] we do it right the first time. Yeah. We want our patients to be happy. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s so great.

Payman Langroudi: There [01:12:10] is a problem, though, when you come to sell the practice. Yeah. There’s all these lifetime guarantees.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: But but you tell the buyer. Yeah. Okay. This is what you’re buying on [01:12:20] on paper based on my EBITDA. The practice is worth 3.2 million. But because of [01:12:25] these lifetime guarantees I’ll settle for three. 3 million. Like you know what I mean? You work it out. [01:12:30] So you buy an insurance product or something. Yeah, but this is what I’m asking. Variable patient [01:12:35] journeys or business models? What comes to mind when I say that? Have you thought of any. You seen any. [01:12:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Mm. That’s a tricky question because [01:12:45] you already took the patient’s journey, which I think is so important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know your [01:12:50] patient journey like you say, empowerment. Yeah. Like, did you tell your staff we want [01:12:55] the patient to be super happy, do whatever it takes to do that? Is that what you mean by empowerment or does everyone get [01:13:00] offered a flat white or what is it? You know, like.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I think [01:13:05] what the value is for our patient’s journey is to yes, [01:13:10] of course, to help them, to make sure they feel satisfied with [01:13:15] their service, with the service we offer. But I think it’s more for us that it [01:13:20] proves that we actually deliver that exceptional patient’s journey. So [01:13:25] they refer other people. So, you know, like the marketing, yes, you can [01:13:30] have a lot of leads coming through. But in our practice, the most people actually coming [01:13:35] from referral.

Payman Langroudi: Word of.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mouth. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a healthy sign.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, exactly. [01:13:40] So yes, we have a marketing in place, but there’s a lot of people oh, my best friend [01:13:45] or actually my hairdresser as well. And they speak to their [01:13:50] families, their friends. And I think this is really remarkable.

Payman Langroudi: They tell each other [01:13:55] about you is what their lovely. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So they they say that the team [01:14:00] is really nice, friendly, professional. They feel [01:14:05] heard. And also it’s clear. So when they come [01:14:10] in it’s clear what we can do. What can we not do. And when you said about [01:14:15] selection as well we we do that too. So we have a two stage [01:14:20] process of our consultation. For that reason we try like just. Oh yeah. [01:14:25] Console. Yeah. Let’s go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: To what is it a TCO that season first.

Patrycja Galonzka: We’ve got no it’s a [01:14:30] clinical LED. Yeah. Okay. Clinical led supported by the TCO. Okay. So the [01:14:35] first conversation when they come into the practice is more about finding their [01:14:40] goals, what they want to achieve. And then what can we do. And [01:14:45] that’s the proposal. Then they go to the TCO. We use time again some [01:14:50] AI videos. Um, we then do self checks for finance [01:14:55] if needed. Then we have a picture of the person that we’ve just [01:15:00] seen.

Payman Langroudi: What it’s up to.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. Then we follow up and if they’re coming back [01:15:05] for the second appointment, they pretty much know that they already want to go ahead when [01:15:10] they usually pay deposit on the day, and then we book the next appointment when it’s actually [01:15:15] treatment, but we take our time.

Payman Langroudi: And do you offer a free consult [01:15:20] from the marketing?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So we pay. They have to pay £25 deposit. [01:15:25] Yes, but it’s fully refundable or it goes goes towards their treatment. Yes. Yes. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then the follow up process. How do you know what, who has to follow up? What is there some sort of CRM. [01:15:35]

Patrycja Galonzka: We have a CRM and we use um we had lead flow. [01:15:40] Yes, yes. Um, and then we use our TCO. So we [01:15:45] have a spreadsheet as well, which is great to have like a proper system in AI, but [01:15:50] at the moment we use a spreadsheets. So we have a different steps for follow up when, [01:15:55] how often, how do we do it? But we usually agree with the patients on the [01:16:00] day and the time that we want to call them.

Payman Langroudi: So when you see them the first time.

Patrycja Galonzka: So [01:16:05] we don’t just let them go.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good time to call.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. We agree. So they actually adding into their calendar. [01:16:10] So they know that we’re going to call or we’re going to contact. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: And you know that idea that some people have decided already, some people take six months [01:16:20] to decide, oh yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or 18 months, 18 months. Yeah, I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Still being clear on that. Yeah. [01:16:25] Like I remember when I was a dentist, that just wasn’t an idea. Yeah. So we [01:16:30] do the examination. The guy said, I’ll think about it. Yeah. They do two follow ups. That’d be the end of [01:16:35] that. Gone. Finished. Yeah. And but sometimes people do take time, you know, like it’s [01:16:40] a thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Because it comes to the spending the money. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:45] So if they’re coming into the practice, they already, like you said, yes. They feel anxious, [01:16:50] a little bit unsure what’s going to happen. But yeah, how much you’re going to spend. [01:16:55] And of course we talk about they start from like a few thousands. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: And are you, how autonomous are you as far as recruitment? Like, [01:17:05] are you the person hiring all the nurses? And yes, without the principle involved? [01:17:10]

Patrycja Galonzka: No, of course he is involved.

Payman Langroudi: He gets involved in the hiring of all the nurses as well.

Patrycja Galonzka: So [01:17:15] we have a process for it. So same again filter. I would say same [01:17:20] thing for hiring. So hire slow fire fast. [01:17:25] So we take time. Um, and then we’ve learned as well from [01:17:30] the day when we’ve opened the practice to now going back to the values, you [01:17:35] won’t have a people who have the similar values. Yeah. So they see this profession [01:17:40] as a long term goal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: And they feel [01:17:45] proud of working in healthcare. Yeah. Not just oh you know, [01:17:50] I can have. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re good at it.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m [01:17:55] getting there. I want to be better. Same again. I want to be better version [01:18:00] of myself every single day.

Payman Langroudi: I think that recruitment is such a funny thing because you can of course, you [01:18:05] can get better at it. Yeah. But sometimes you have the perfect process and [01:18:10] the person starts and it’s just not the person you thought they were, you know?

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, [01:18:15] there’s even ways around that, right? Come in for trial weeks or whatever. Do you do that trial days and weeks?

Patrycja Galonzka: Not [01:18:20] the weeks. No. We do like interview zoom, some questionnaire, [01:18:25] observation and trial. Yeah. For a few hours. But you’re right. [01:18:30] You never really truly know.

Payman Langroudi: Until you know.

Patrycja Galonzka: Until you know. Yes. [01:18:35]

Payman Langroudi: And have you got, like, favourite questions? Questions that like I, I like the I [01:18:40] mean, it’s a classic. What are what you’re bad at kind of question. Yeah. Your weakness question.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, [01:18:45] yeah. Same.

Payman Langroudi: And a lot of people don’t want to say it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or they.

Payman Langroudi: Or they don’t, I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Don’t know. [01:18:50] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I yeah. And I find that it’s such a turn off for me when someone says that [01:18:55] because it’s like, what? You don’t know yourself.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like I would say it’s a little bit concerning [01:19:00] as well. Because if you don’t know your weaknesses.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know yourself, right? [01:19:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: No. And all you do is like, oh, it’s the ego thing. I know everything, I [01:19:10] know best. I can do anything really.

Payman Langroudi: And then in [01:19:15] appraisal, do you get them to give themselves a score on stuff [01:19:20] or.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. Well, the thing is same with appraisals in so many practices. [01:19:25] Only happens once a year. Yeah, but I’m not against [01:19:30] doing it. But I have a 1 to 1 with my team every so often. [01:19:35]

Payman Langroudi: How often?

Patrycja Galonzka: I would say probably every two weeks. Ooh, [01:19:40] yes. Awesome times. More like together. Because your goals [01:19:45] can change. And as you said with your company, you’ve got one idea for one week. [01:19:50] The next week you have another idea. Same in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: But is it, is it like, [01:19:55] is it, um, a structured thing or you’re literally sitting, having a cup of tea with someone? Is it. [01:20:00] Are there things you’re asking them or are you trying to figure them out? What are you trying to do? Give me some sense [01:20:05] of it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So it’s a different frameworks you follow when it comes just purely to the job [01:20:10] role. Yes. We have to follow the procedures, make sure we fully compliant. Yeah. But [01:20:15] touch base on actually are you happy with what you’re doing. Is [01:20:20] that make you satisfied? You know, I don’t want to have people coming into [01:20:25] work being miserable and then spread that miserable vibe around. [01:20:30] And sometimes it happens, you know, in your life, you might have a bad day. [01:20:35] Yeah. Then now I’ve opened in my book. Um, there’s two slots per week. [01:20:40] Any team member can just book time with me to speak to me. So a part of [01:20:45] like the 1 to 1 appraisals, they can just book their appointment there. [01:20:50] And it’s usually like around lunch time. Two different slots. So they can literally [01:20:55] just book their appointment, let’s say sit down with me and then just talk to me because [01:21:00] it’s a wellbeing. It’s very, very important as well. So yes, you can have your goals, [01:21:05] PDP in place, hit the numbers. But actually, is [01:21:10] that all making you feeling happy?

Payman Langroudi: That could be on paper all look great, but you’re [01:21:15] actually not a happy person.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point. It’s a very good point.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you. [01:21:20]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes on this pod. I mean with the dentists it would be a clinical mistake [01:21:25] because dentists don’t like talking about their clinical mistakes. And so we never learn from [01:21:30] each other’s mistakes. Mhm. What comes to mind if I ask you, what’s been some of your biggest mistakes [01:21:35] in this career that you’ve carved.

Patrycja Galonzka: I [01:21:40] think I’ve got two that comes into my mind. So [01:21:45] the first one, I was definitely avoiding [01:21:50] difficult conversations with the people I was responsible for. Mhm. Yes. [01:21:55] I was the new person in the country. I think that was also a [01:22:00] barrier for me. But you didn’t want to be in that difficult conversation [01:22:05] because you were afraid that people will not like you anymore. Yeah. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think there’s, like, a, a line that you have to draw that you can’t get too [01:22:15] close to your people?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So have you approached that point [01:22:20] and had to like, yeah. Pull back.

Patrycja Galonzka: I had to learn because before going [01:22:25] back to the difficult conversation, like leadership is not to be [01:22:30] nice that people like you. I think it’s the kindness. [01:22:35] The kindness is care. So if you’re kind, you [01:22:40] will be honest. You will exactly say, oh, look, um, I think [01:22:45] I’ve observed or the data shows me. I think we should do [01:22:50] a, b, c how can I get you there? You need to be very fair, very [01:22:55] honest and kind. And people feel okay [01:23:00] with it because you’re not being horrible, you’re not [01:23:05] being nagging and you are there for them to show that. [01:23:10] Yes, I understand we can make mistakes, but I’m here with you on this journey.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:15] tactics for that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Tactics for that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like for [01:23:20] instance, do you do things like let’s, let’s say someone’s done something wrong and [01:23:25] you want to put that thing right or whatever. Do you start with what they did right first [01:23:30] and then go Going to.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So I think there is a structure [01:23:35] how to handle these conversations.

Payman Langroudi: Second nature for you now. You just don’t even realise you’re doing it. Yeah. [01:23:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: You have to start with the good parts first. Because if you start with only the bad, the, [01:23:45] the vibe and the energy in the room is already.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:23:50] person doesn’t feel seen either. Right? They feel like you’ve already seen.

Patrycja Galonzka: It already, like, oh, what I’m [01:23:55] doing here? Or they’re just hoping for this conversation to end. But when [01:24:00] you start with the goods, then this is amazing. Great. You’ve done A, [01:24:05] B, C what do you think? How do you feel about it? Oh yeah. Great. I didn’t [01:24:10] think I could do it. Thank you so much. Okay, now let’s move to.

Payman Langroudi: X, [01:24:15] Y, and z. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: So I’m not saying you’re doing this wrong. However, [01:24:20] I always say I believe you could do it better. What can I do for [01:24:25] you? Oh, actually, yes, you’re right. I didn’t realise that. Would you [01:24:30] mind to help me? Yeah. Of course. And then we put the plan in place. Then [01:24:35] another 1 to 1. We sit down. We had some time to review [01:24:40] it. To try it. Yeah. Actually, I’m fine now. Amazing. We [01:24:45] can continue.

Payman Langroudi: What was the other mistake?

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, [01:24:50] I think the second mistake [01:24:55] it was. Yes. It’s something with the culture as well. So [01:25:00] going to the difficult conversations I think I [01:25:05] haven’t addressed the anti values on time. And you [01:25:10] and I feel guilty for it to be honest because you pass through them. [01:25:15] You’ve seen them. You know they were there but you’ve never addressed [01:25:20] them. Yeah. So that becomes standard. Now that becomes your operational [01:25:25] rhythm within the practice and it’s [01:25:30] too late to fix it because people think, oh, she didn’t say anything.

Payman Langroudi: So get specific though. [01:25:35]

Patrycja Galonzka: Specific.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What was the anti anti values. [01:25:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Blaming people. Blaming other people for their [01:25:45] mistakes or resistance to change and [01:25:50] keep complaining. I don’t want to do this. I, I don’t [01:25:55] want to use this AI. Why do we want to use it. Why do I have to use it. [01:26:00] Or blaming. That’s not my fault. She said this. It’s [01:26:05] really common, but I think you have to address them. You need to speak about them being [01:26:10] transparent. And I’m not saying the antivirus only comes from your staffy or managing [01:26:15] it comes from us as well. If I say I will [01:26:20] do this for you, but I will never follow up, I [01:26:25] will never going to do it. How are you going to feel?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So next time [01:26:30] you say something like that, no one’s going to believe you.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. All I’d say I know all the answers.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:26:35] do you keep organised? I mean, like, you’ve got all these conversations going on with these people. I’m going to check back [01:26:40] with you to make sure success looks like this. How is it like just a calendar? Like, how do you [01:26:45] know what to do when you might just be super, super organised person to be [01:26:50] pulling this off?

Patrycja Galonzka: Same again. That’s also a mistake and a lesson I had to learn. It’s [01:26:55] it’s the time management really, because you can get busy but [01:27:00] not effective really so easily. You busy busy in [01:27:05] that firefighting mode, one job, next job and that workload [01:27:10] never ends and you feel like you never finished. Time management [01:27:15] is the key and something I really encouraging my team to do as well. So I mean my [01:27:20] time.

Payman Langroudi: Priority prioritising the right thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s like a traffic light red orange, [01:27:25] green. But I blocked my actual diary for specific tasks. So I [01:27:30] do like to do this on Sunday evenings. Some people do Fridays to switch [01:27:35] off for the weekend, but I actually do it on Sunday evening. I review the book. [01:27:40] I usually read the reports from my staff, what happened from the week before [01:27:45] so I can see what worked, what we need to work on it or improve, [01:27:50] and then I schedule my week accordingly, so I.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:55] do you look forward to Monday morning?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, because I’m organised.

Payman Langroudi: How does that take you on a Sunday night? [01:28:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: How long does it take?

Patrycja Galonzka: How long? I think because I do it every [01:28:05] week now. And we have a systems in place like the handover from my staff. [01:28:10] So I see what happened in each day. And I just go through it probably [01:28:15] like one hour, one hour and a half. Then I block my time. Few [01:28:20] specific key tasks.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive discipline thing in itself. Yeah. Like I’m sure like if [01:28:25] you go out there in public and ask 100 people in the street, do you do 1.5 hours [01:28:30] of work on a Sunday night for your job? I’m sure there’d be plenty of people completely like, [01:28:35] you know, disgusted by that idea. Yeah. On Sunday evenings. That’s my time, right? [01:28:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. I heard a lot of feedbacks like that. That’s so sad. What [01:28:45] are you doing? This. But I just love my look.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a thing. I’ve [01:28:50] got a thing. Yeah. A lot of our team are remote. Yeah. Like. Oh, yes. Your friend Lee is [01:28:55] in South Africa.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and I’ve got a little bugbear. Yeah. [01:29:00] That is if I send a WhatsApp at nine at night. Yeah. [01:29:05] I don’t mind if you’re, if you’re playing tennis or you’re with your kids or whatever and you don’t [01:29:10] answer. No problem. Yeah, sure. But if you see it. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Answer [01:29:15] it. Yeah. Because they’re remote anyway. [01:29:20] I mean, my most of my team come in one day a week or one day a fortnight. Sometimes [01:29:25] there’s nothing I can do about whether or not they’re 100% working for [01:29:30] me at that time. And, you know, you can you can have the person’s body in the building, but [01:29:35] it’s really their brain and their heart that you really want, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but I’m saying you’re [01:29:40] remote. Yeah. You can get up and go to the shop at any moment, and I will. I’ll never know anything [01:29:45] about it. Yeah. But if I send you a WhatsApp at 8 p.m. and your work hours, say [01:29:50] 530, and you see the WhatsApp? Yeah, if you don’t see it. Okay. Of course, [01:29:55] you see the WhatsApp. Don’t get on this sort of high horse. I’m not working right now. Yeah, [01:30:00] it’s a bugbear, man. So but it annoys people when I bring it up. Like if I say that I [01:30:05] kind of. You’re not allowed to say that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I get your point as [01:30:10] well as the other side too. But I think if you. Yeah, [01:30:15] working on things together in your team.

Payman Langroudi: Then in my mind works best at night [01:30:20] time. And by the way, there’s some people. Answer me at midnight.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There are. There’s some people like that too. Yeah, I love that. But there’s some people. 532 [01:30:30] no answer.

Patrycja Galonzka: 9 to 5 mine.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. They’re [01:30:35] out. Yeah. You can’t complain about it because that’s they’re being paid from 9 to 5 or whatever. [01:30:40] Yeah. But I’m saying because of this extra thing about remote, like you guys don’t get it [01:30:45] in a dental practice. You have to turn up. You have to, you know, see people, you have to it’s [01:30:50] a, it’s a reason why it’s so hard to get recruitment now because there’s so many people [01:30:55] working from home. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. They want flexibility. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:31:00] interesting. We’re coming to the end of our time. I’m going to hit you with some quick fire [01:31:05] kind of questions.

Patrycja Galonzka: All right.

Payman Langroudi: But before I do, what’s your amazing outcome [01:31:10] for if we were sitting again in five years time, what would [01:31:15] you like to have achieved?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, I love that question. Is a very, [01:31:20] very deep question. And same again, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Sit ambitious as you. [01:31:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So you have to really pose to know [01:31:30] where you want to go. And I would love to have my business [01:31:35] running with my Caesar framework.

Payman Langroudi: Your consulting business.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Helping people, [01:31:40] raising the standards.

Payman Langroudi: Making the difference. You make time for that with your existing [01:31:45] job. What’s the story? What if you get a new customer?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’ve reduced my hours at Aspire Smiles, [01:31:50] hence why we are so on systems so I can still keep an eye on what’s happening. [01:31:55] The handover has been in the morning. Huddle has been just a game changer. [01:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing morning huddle every day?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. Handovers weekly.

Payman Langroudi: What did you go through in the morning [01:32:05] huddle? Like who’s coming in? Lab work. Who do we need to get reviews from this sort of thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s a mixture. [01:32:10] So at the moment, because I’m starting a little bit later, I’m dropping my daughter to school. [01:32:15] Same again. It comes to empowerment. My practice operationally does them. [01:32:20] She was very nervous at the start. A few rounds. The team had a [01:32:25] good feedback from it and she was like, Patricia, I feel like I’m in control now. Thank you. So [01:32:30] we go through a different different scenarios. What we did good yesterday, what we could [01:32:35] improve, what we have a plan for today. The main goals let’s [01:32:40] say patience. Are there any patients coming that we can either get them [01:32:45] on testimonials, social media content or if they have a birthday, go [01:32:50] get them a chocolates. So it’s a mixture of a different it’s not just a boring, like [01:32:55] you said, lab work. Yes, it’s important, but that should be already part of your system [01:33:00] checked before. Really, this should be more about qualitative. Yes, [01:33:05] definitely. Yeah. So in five years, five years, I [01:33:10] would like to have my business running fully.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Seeing [01:33:15] my results coming through from people saying, yes, Patricia, [01:33:20] we’ve reduced the chaos in the practice. There is not so much firefighting. [01:33:25] Our people enjoy what they do. The burnout goes low. And [01:33:30] I think dentistry, yes, is my first step. But I see this more as a health [01:33:35] care, you see.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, I know a couple of, uh, who are [01:33:40] they? One, one was a practice manager and one was a hygienist [01:33:45] who owned their own practices now.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And some of the things they’ve [01:33:50] done that already and some of enlightened biggest users. Yeah. But, you know, [01:33:55] the insight they’ve got is they’ll, they’ll put their associates on a course. Yes. [01:34:00] And they’ll make sure the following week this treatment that that course. [01:34:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Addresses. Yeah. Like we do courses or we do composite course. [01:34:10] There’s a bunch of people come on the course and don’t do a single composite bonding case until [01:34:15] six months later when they’ve forgotten everything. Yeah, but she because she’s been in [01:34:20] a practice, you know, she’s done your kind of working through a practice, understand [01:34:25] she pays for the course for the associate herself. And the following week when the [01:34:30] associate comes in this composite bonding cases and then and then suddenly that person becomes [01:34:35] a composite bonding dentist. You know, like it works. It works.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. You’ve thought about owning [01:34:40] a practice?

Patrycja Galonzka: Not necessarily. I think a few years ago, yes. [01:34:45] And I had a conversation with one dentist. It [01:34:50] was just before the pandemic. And I’m wondering. Yes, but I’m glad I [01:34:55] didn’t, to be honest, because what I’m doing now, it gives me more flexibility [01:35:00] to be around other people. So I think this is my mission. [01:35:05] I don’t want to be stuck in one place. I want to be exposed. I want to share [01:35:10] what I went through my lessons, my experiences. And this [01:35:15] is something that is still happening. All the patterns, they are still happening. So [01:35:20] yeah. No no no.

Payman Langroudi: Quick fire, [01:35:25] quick fire. What’s your favourite business resource or book or podcast [01:35:30] or whatever you said. Simon Sinek.

Patrycja Galonzka: Simon Sinek. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:35:35] anyone else.

Patrycja Galonzka: He’s about the leadership and Chris Barro. Oh yeah. I love Chris [01:35:40] Barro concept. Um, same KPI’s leadership. Your [01:35:45] sustainable growth comes from leadership and systems. And he’s really forward thinking about AI. [01:35:50] And that connects with me a lot. Um, with regards to the books. [01:35:55] Glennis Bridges she was my mentor. So I’ve done my qualifications [01:36:00] with her. Um, oh yeah. She’s very close to my heart. She was [01:36:05] with me throughout all my journey. Believe with me even when I doubted myself, [01:36:10] to be honest. But yeah, I do love to listen to podcasts, [01:36:15] not just in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Which one?

Patrycja Galonzka: Because it’s a business related. So from [01:36:20] Simon Sinek, Steven Bartlett, different type of podcasts just [01:36:25] then every time something new and bringing into the practice like Mel Robbins, [01:36:30] I think she’s my top one because she’s speaking a lot about mindset. [01:36:35] Yeah. So the settings in our brain and the way she explained [01:36:40] settings in your brain, like in your computer, you can change them.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the name [01:36:45] of the pod? Is it just her name?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yeah. It was just one of the podcasts with, oh.

Payman Langroudi: She was a [01:36:50] guest somewhere.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So oh, the weather, the weather you bring into the company. [01:36:55] Same again. It’s from the Mel Robbins. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else come to mind [01:37:00] like resource wise?

Patrycja Galonzka: Um [01:37:05] not particularly. I think I’m like trying to explore lots of different [01:37:10] resources. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your what’s your favourite treatment in dentistry? [01:37:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Invisalign. Is it because I had it done?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Patrycja Galonzka: And enlightened combined [01:37:20] it together. Yeah, but Invisalign, it was the one for me, [01:37:25] for sure. It was really interesting to understand the way [01:37:30] it’s done from the patient perspective. So yeah, I enjoyed it. It took [01:37:35] some time. I think it it taught me to be patient as well, to be honest and [01:37:40] discipline. You have to change it every week.

Payman Langroudi: And so so you’re so disciplined, right? You’re [01:37:45] so hardworking. What’s your guilty pleasure?

Patrycja Galonzka: Hmm. [01:37:50] I don’t know if it’s guilty pleasure, but I love my hot pot yoga. [01:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, that’s not guilty pleasure. Well, I’m [01:38:00] thinking more KFC, man. Oh, guilty. Guilty pleasure. Guilty [01:38:05] pleasure. Some some crap thing you watch on TV or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: The thing [01:38:10] is, I don’t really watch TV that much. I think my.

Payman Langroudi: Guilt is flicking through TikTok.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, [01:38:15] I think I’m quite bad with Friday evening. I ordered some Indian food [01:38:20] every week on Friday.

Payman Langroudi: That’s all right.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think that’s my guilty [01:38:25] pleasure. And yeah, something. I just have to have it once a week.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:38:30] been a massive pleasure having you. Really has so much. I’ve learned so much from you the way you, [01:38:35] your mindset, your positivity, your positivity. Really, really excellent. [01:38:40] Thank you so much for coming all this way.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you for having me. Really, it was great.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed [01:38:45] today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [01:38:50] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really [01:38:55] appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:39:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:39:05] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training purely focussed [00:00:15] on anterior work, composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the [00:00:25] dates mini Smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

VOICE: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome again to the Dental [00:00:55] leaders podcast, acne. And I go back quite a long way. Um, actually, [00:01:00] it’s become internationally known as, uh, minimally invasive [00:01:05] direct composite expert. Um, goes around the world [00:01:10] lecturing and actually lecturing tomorrow in London. Um, so we’ve managed to grab you now, [00:01:15] as well as being the clinical lead at the Baltic Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry. [00:01:20] Agni is our distributor for enlighten in Lithuania. Um, [00:01:25] a bio emulation accredited. Is that the way you say it?

Agne Malisauskiene: A member [00:01:30] of bio member.

Payman Langroudi: Of bio emulation has been on ripe global, really creating a fantastic [00:01:35] career and really putting Vilnius on the dental map [00:01:40] for, you know, world experts now land in Vilnius, um, [00:01:45] through Agni. And it’s a beautiful place that I came to with the beautiful sunshine. [00:01:50] Lovely to have you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, thank you for having me. First and foremost, it’s super [00:01:55] exciting. Um, I think we talked about this a couple years ago. Yeah. And [00:02:00] and, you know, it takes time, right. Um, it’s lovely to be here. And yes, [00:02:05] we’ve met years.

Payman Langroudi: When was it, when was the first time you met?

Agne Malisauskiene: Years ago. Um. [00:02:10]

Payman Langroudi: I feel like IDs.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was IDs. And JJ was [00:02:15] my older son. He was, um, a year and a half. So [00:02:20] that means it’s exactly seven years ago. This is when we met. [00:02:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is he eight and a half?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, he’s eight and a half, so it’s easy to count. Um, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: I should [00:02:30] have thrown in. Mother of two. Along with the whole thing. The juggle is real, [00:02:35] huh?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. Um. It’s fun. It’s fun.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:40] from that time till now, your career has been absolutely [00:02:45] rocketing.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a roller coaster.

Payman Langroudi: Must be. Must feel like [00:02:50] that for you.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. I do remember when we met in the first time [00:02:55] I came to the mini smile makeover, I remember I was so [00:03:00] excited and it was. Everything was so interesting [00:03:05] and I thought, like, how and why would you, um, [00:03:10] trust in me? Because I came as a help for Depeche [00:03:15] and I was like, you met me. We talked for like, uh, I don’t know, two minutes, [00:03:20] three minutes. And you’re like, so you’re coming to mini smile makeover. I have this idea. I [00:03:25] was like, how would you. I just don’t know you though.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:03:30] knew you from before. Like that wasn’t the first time I had met you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. So, [00:03:35] um, I came then and I’ve been coming for, [00:03:40] for a while, I guess up to the, up to the Covid or Brexit or whatever [00:03:45] thing. It was like.

Payman Langroudi: You know what always used to make me feel amazing like, like this mother of two [00:03:50] is getting on a plane and coming all the way to London to help out [00:03:55] on a composite course, and then go all the way back, and you must you must have done that a good six, [00:04:00] eight times. Yeah. Um, and I thought the determination of this person. [00:04:05]

Agne Malisauskiene: Was a mother of one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you were the one back then. At the time.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [00:04:10] no, you don’t understand. I learned loads. Like I learned loads. [00:04:15] I learned a lot about, um, giving a course, [00:04:20] about teaching a course. I learned a lot about hospitality [00:04:25] of the course. Like so many things come into play and unless you’re [00:04:30] not running your own courses, you have no clue. And this is why [00:04:35] I always say that if someone really wants to do their own courses, oh, [00:04:40] I just dare them and I’m the one to. I’m just gonna watch you after the the day. I’m [00:04:45] just gonna look in your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just events are tough. It’s tough to make money. [00:04:50] It’s tough to make them amazing without losing money, is what I found. Yes. Um, like [00:04:55] the one I came to in Vilnius. What an amazing event that was. You got just that. I mean, it was amazing [00:05:00] weather, but the outside bit. You guys have done live music, like [00:05:05] some Michelin star food coming out and stuff. And, um, you know, the weird [00:05:10] that it’s kind of like being a dentist that the better, the harder you try, the less [00:05:15] money you make. It is.

Agne Malisauskiene: Always like that because you want everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: Better, you want materials better, [00:05:20] you want equipment better, you want this, that, and then it suddenly becomes you [00:05:25] buying a new camera. It’s just like a pocket money, kind of, because then you bought something [00:05:30] crazy ahead of time. And it is what it is. And [00:05:35] it’s true. And I think that I learned so much and, [00:05:40] um, I would never have done this without you. So [00:05:45] yeah. No, no, no, I told you, you’re my favourite person in Dental industry. I’ve [00:05:50] told you that many times, you know. So this is a thing, you know, I learned a lot. And then [00:05:55] I’m not the one to hide it where I learned it from. So I really like [00:06:00] to, you know, I’m very grateful.

Payman Langroudi: I like that man. I mean, you guys have been so [00:06:05] professional, much more professional than us. When I came over the mantas, [00:06:10] your husband, who handles the the back end of it, sent me all these amazing notes [00:06:15] on what to do from the airport, how to get into Vilnius, how to get to your facility, [00:06:20] all of that. And the facility there is amazing. Tell me about that. So how many people do [00:06:25] you train in your facility?

Agne Malisauskiene: It was meant for 16. Um, [00:06:30] but then we were counting because we were doing [00:06:35] it. We were like reconstructing it from like office building [00:06:40] into the training facility during Covid. So that was a gamble. Yeah, yeah. At the time you [00:06:45] had distancing and first When we started out, we didn’t know if we’re gonna [00:06:50] open at all. Yeah. And then that was a gamble. And then, um, [00:06:55] then new regulation about the social distancing came about. So we counted [00:07:00] that if we see it in every other seat into the, in the row of three, [00:07:05] we would see two. And we’re like, so the math ends up being, I don’t know, 9 [00:07:10] or 10 still okay, still fine. Still we can manage that. And I was like, it’s [00:07:15] three, three, three three. So it’s two, two, two, two eight. And then it was supposed [00:07:20] to be ten. Yeah. Because two and two in the back. And um, and [00:07:25] then it was all fine again. So it was all 16 back again. And then [00:07:30] we bought phantom heads and to move around people on phantom heads because [00:07:35] you cannot go in front and you cannot take the model. You have to go around because there’s a [00:07:40] head. Now we do 1213 um, and it’s okay. [00:07:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, But how many people have gone through your courses in total? Like, what are we talking. [00:07:50] Hundreds.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thousands.

Payman Langroudi: Thousands.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how often do you teach there? [00:07:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: I teach. It used to be 12 [00:08:00] times a year. Now it’s about six, [00:08:05] maybe seven, eight. Because now I’m away for too much. So.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:08:10] the rest of the time, other people come in.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. And the list is amazing. All [00:08:15] the way from DC to Payman Langroudi. Who else? Who else have you had there? You’ve had so many [00:08:20] amazing speakers there.

Agne Malisauskiene: Lucas Lassman. You know the guy. Um oh, [00:08:25] we we had like any, anyone and [00:08:30] everyone that we wanted at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Just list a few for me. Indulge me.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh [00:08:35] dear God.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is very difficult.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is very. Okay, so I [00:08:40] would start with, uh, Ramon Gomez, Maida And, um, Howard [00:08:45] Gluckman. So all the surgical, uh, Ricardo Kern. Kern. [00:08:50] Ricardo was three times. I think he’s booked for the next time again. [00:08:55] Um, we have quite a quite a bit of interest in those surgical [00:09:00] courses as well as composite and, um, for [00:09:05] composite, it works better on hands on for surgical, we can have larger groups. I guess [00:09:10] this is how it goes. They can handle more people. Um Dia has been [00:09:15] there twice. He’s coming back for the third time. Um, [00:09:20] I don’t know. David. Gerardo. Stefan brought we.

Payman Langroudi: He’s been there many times. [00:09:25]

Agne Malisauskiene: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Javier Tapia you’ve had Javier as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. Like I don’t know, three [00:09:30] times.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a country of you know, um, [00:09:35] I was just thinking because I was listening to your, uh, [00:09:40] to her podcast and she was like, she’s referring always. [00:09:45] Oh, I’m Eastern European. So this has happened because I’m eastern. I’m like, first and foremost, we’re Northern [00:09:50] Europeans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re closer to Swedish than you are to Romanian. Yeah. [00:09:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: Because we kind of look more like Norwegians.

Agne Malisauskiene: I would say. Um, in Norway, [00:10:00] everybody talks to me in Norwegian. I just walk down the street. But um, [00:10:05] but it is the land of we have way too [00:10:10] many dentists. Let’s just say that we do. I think we’re like number two or now maybe [00:10:15] number three country out of dentists per capita. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Right? So we [00:10:20] have a lot of dentists. Competition is super high. So everybody needs to be better, faster, stronger. [00:10:25]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I remember you telling me composite bonding was in vogue years and years and years [00:10:30] ago. Yeah. You know, because here it’s kind of, I don’t know, five, six years old [00:10:35] as far as, you know, becoming popularised. Maybe a bit more, Maybe a bit [00:10:40] more. Maybe 7 or 8 years old as far as becoming popularised. But you were telling me years ago.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:10:45] it’s kind of ahead of the curve as well in that sense.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, because it’s cheaper.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:10:50] is that why?

Agne Malisauskiene: No, it’s because it’s cheaper. And um we’re not [00:10:55] like we’re not the people to trust somebody else with our stuff. This is what I [00:11:00] think. I think we have trust issues, you know, being post-Soviet and all. Yeah. Um, and [00:11:05] then when you can do something with your hands, you know how it’s going to turn out.

Payman Langroudi: Control. [00:11:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It’s just a control freaks, basically.

Payman Langroudi: I also found Vilnius [00:11:15] very cool. I mean, I mean, cool is a funny word. Yeah. Because, you know, the kind of look on [00:11:20] people’s faces is kind of kind of, kind of, kind of standoffish. Yeah. But what I love [00:11:25] about it is that like, they kind of stand offish until they’re not. And then suddenly they’re the complete opposite, [00:11:30] like, trust you with their lives.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it is. It is like that. It is like that because [00:11:35] you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Flip is amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s the fact that everybody is like protecting [00:11:40] their own space, their environment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Up until the point that they’re [00:11:45] like, you’ve been in their environment for long enough for some, you may need five minutes, [00:11:50] for some a little bit longer. And then they’re.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: Here to get you.

Payman Langroudi: But also, but also [00:11:55] like really cool coffee shops, cool design everywhere. Um, it’s [00:12:00] you moved from here to there, didn’t you? Came here for a while. Yeah. And [00:12:05] then you moved back and what was, was the sort of the driver for that. Could you tell Vilnius [00:12:10] is happening and I need to get back. No, no, it was a.

Payman Langroudi: Driver.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, the first [00:12:15] and foremost, I never thought I’m gonna move to UK.

Payman Langroudi: I was just here for a bit. [00:12:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, my plan was to be here for a year. But then [00:12:25] Mantas, my husband, he got way too comfortable. He got [00:12:30] way too comfortable. The thing was that, well, the idea was basically [00:12:35] that he was approached at LinkedIn. Someone offered him a job. Um, [00:12:40] and he said, I’m gonna apply. And before that, in Lithuania, we were working [00:12:45] both of us 8 to 8 every day. And sometimes I would come in on Saturdays because [00:12:50] somebody wanted something. And I’m, I’m a people pleaser. So I like to for [00:12:55] everybody to feel comfortable around me. So this is what it is. And I’m like, okay, I will [00:13:00] come in on Saturday. But then you see that 20 like that 8 [00:13:05] to 8, 12 hours a day doesn’t really work that well. And then he [00:13:10] got, you know, he was working at UI at that point. Yeah. [00:13:15] So they were working, I don’t know, these people don’t understand the holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Anything [00:13:20] consultant.

Agne Malisauskiene: Was.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, he was a tax.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They basically say here’s a [00:13:25] phone answer it any time day or night.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was crazy. Um, [00:13:30] we would get back home around nine ish 9 p.m. or so. [00:13:35] And then so he got a message on LinkedIn. He applied and suddenly [00:13:40] he got a job and he said, what do we do in London? You [00:13:45] mean it was Brighton? Brighton. And I was started. I started [00:13:50] to cry. I said, I don’t want to be a chicken factory girl. I’m a dentist. Because it [00:13:55] looked like all of Lithuania’s who were moving. That was a long time ago. When the [00:14:00] borders open, right. They would go either to strawberry farms or chicken factory. [00:14:05] That was like it was a major joke. And I was like, I expected to go to Spain for a year [00:14:10] or something like that. But then I told him that if I can get a job really [00:14:15] fast, like in a month or so, we can move. I got a job [00:14:20] in three days. Wow, that was super fast. And and then we moved there. I [00:14:25] came a month later, um, because I had to fix [00:14:30] all the documents and everything else. I came a month later and we had a completely [00:14:35] different life. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What was your first impression of UK dentistry [00:14:40] compared to what you were used to?

Agne Malisauskiene: First and foremost, very short working hours. I [00:14:45] would work from 930 to 5 p.m. with one hour lunch break. We didn’t know [00:14:50] what to do with our time. We signed up at the library. We were reading books. [00:14:55] We were walking by the by the sea. We were working by the water.

Payman Langroudi: We would work on the practice. Was it a [00:15:00] mixed or a.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was completely private.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, I could not do NHS. It takes [00:15:05] like a year to get.

Payman Langroudi: Oh the number.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. So just it just too long. [00:15:10] Right. So it was completely private. Um I was on a salary, not on [00:15:15] the percentage. Later on I, I was told that the salary was very [00:15:20] low, but honestly, it was, it was, [00:15:25] I don’t know. Um the problem I had very nice clinic. I [00:15:30] had my own room nobody like to share it with, and everything [00:15:35] was super clean, sterile. That I was not used to that kind of [00:15:40] a thing. So when the Covid hit in Lithuania, I was like, now it’s normal, now it’s normal, now everything [00:15:45] is clean, now it’s normal. I don’t like you filthy people. But, um, [00:15:50] so it was a lot different. Um, it was an implant clinic. So everything was [00:15:55] oriented about the implants. I came there to do only interiors. And [00:16:00] once I came, I was told three times you watch um implant placement [00:16:05] three times. And the fourth time you’re doing it yourself. And I was like implant no. And [00:16:10] they’re like, no, no, no, that’s easy. But I ended up not doing one implant ever. [00:16:15] I did do porcelain. I did endo, which I was not doing at home [00:16:20] at that moment, but it was easy and dose in UK because in Lithuania everything was calcified. [00:16:25] Like you would be like the third person going into that tooth, there is always the first [00:16:30] one.

Payman Langroudi: And what about patient mindset? Oh dear. What’s [00:16:35] the biggest difference?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m not very sensitive person. Right. So the thing is that my [00:16:40] patients will tell you that I’m very compassionate, but only because [00:16:45] they’re Lithuanian. So they’re kind of used to being like a very, um, [00:16:50] straightforward approach. Right. I’m very direct. And, um, you know, [00:16:55] if you need, uh, what if someone comes to me like a person, right? Not a patient, like a person [00:17:00] and they’re complaining about something. So if you want solutions, [00:17:05] you come to me. But if you need a shoulder to cry on, it’s probably not. I’m not the person. [00:17:10] So I would be like, okay, we’re doing, um, panoramic X-ray and [00:17:15] we’re checking everything. And I’m like, okay, so Mrs. this and this I [00:17:20] see this is a cavity. This is a cavity. This is a cavity. This is that, this is this tooth is okay. This is that, [00:17:25] this is that. Oh, that’s neat. Root canal. This needs extraction. And then somebody’s crying and [00:17:30] I’m like, what what what what what what? So that was very [00:17:35] strange. And, um, I [00:17:40] had to get used to that. I got used to that pretty easily. So. So [00:17:45] apparently on the first visit you just get rapport. Yes, [00:17:50] basically. And then you just talk about fairy tales and, and, you [00:17:55] know, I don’t know, rainbows and butterflies and something else. And then you slowly get them into that mood, [00:18:00] you know, about talking about serious stuff, right? So I got used to that. [00:18:05] But then I was super popular amongst Italians, [00:18:10] French, Spanish, and somehow there was like a big group of Bulgarians that would come to me. [00:18:15] So I ended up being an ex-pat dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, funny.

Agne Malisauskiene: And they would [00:18:20] come to the American dentist. They would say, I want to see that American one. I was like, I’m not American. [00:18:25] I’m like, don’t worry.

Payman Langroudi: Did you speak English perfectly at that point?

Agne Malisauskiene: I went to high school [00:18:30] in the middle of cornfields in Indiana when I was 16 for a year in the military [00:18:35] academy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Agne Malisauskiene: So I could speak not like it would [00:18:40] not be very Dental ish words, right? Yeah. Um, sometimes I still [00:18:45] have a hard time to express myself.

Payman Langroudi: So was your. What? Your dad was a military guy?

Agne Malisauskiene: No, [00:18:50] I was a smart kid. I got a scholarship in a very fancy school.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:18:55] I was alone by yourself. Boarding school? Yeah. For a year.

Payman Langroudi: What a formative.

Payman Langroudi: Thing to happen. [00:19:00] Like, did it form you that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it did.

Payman Langroudi: It must have.

Agne Malisauskiene: Right.

Agne Malisauskiene: I, um, it [00:19:05] changed me completely. Like it changed everything. What I see I [00:19:10] come from, you know, again, eastern northern Europe and I come [00:19:15] there and everything is different. It’s in the middle of cornfields. It’s a massive school. Think [00:19:20] about Harry Potter land, right? There was like kilometres and kilometres [00:19:25] of that school. And every single class happens in a different building. Everybody wears uniform [00:19:30] all the time. In a year there were like four days that you can [00:19:35] wear civil clothes that they called them.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Agne Malisauskiene: And everything was counted. [00:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very un-American, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: Very inspections. Every day you stand there and then, you know, [00:19:45] for girls it was okay. For boys, it was proper left, left, left, [00:19:50] right, left. It’s like they were proper military, right. Um, for girls, it was calmer [00:19:55] kind of a thing. You still had to salute when you go to a certain place, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:00] you were in military uniform?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, no, no, it looked like a preppy kind of [00:20:05] a preppy school uniform. Boys were in military [00:20:10] uniforms all the time, like all of their things that whatever. Yeah, yeah, [00:20:15] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff. General.

Agne Malisauskiene: What it gave me, it’s crazy because [00:20:20] one of the main, um, every new student [00:20:25] doesn’t matter the grade they’re coming into. Um, they had to take this, um, [00:20:30] informational literacy class. Um, that was [00:20:35] the way they taught were to get the information, how to use library [00:20:40] that’s physical, how to use PubMed for example. Right. And we [00:20:45] all had to do thesis, write research papers and do like proper research. [00:20:50] And I was. So if the ninth grader comes in, they do this. [00:20:55] I was at the 11th grade. I would go with ninth graders or 10th graders, whoever come. We, [00:21:00] we formed that class. And then we were taught that. And another very [00:21:05] important class was called leadership. So you would have robotics [00:21:10] one day. And then, um, what they were telling us and the way [00:21:15] they were teaching us is how you can be a leader. And if [00:21:20] you don’t want to be a leader, everybody’s got a space in the team. So teamwork was [00:21:25] the idea that everybody would find their own path, their own space, and [00:21:30] everybody had to take some sort of a leadership in academics. Doesn’t matter how good they are. [00:21:35] They still had to take a leadership in academics. Academics would mean you can [00:21:40] tutor Jim, you can tutor anything else you can [00:21:45] tutor, or you can help others to find something in the library. You still had a job to do, per [00:21:50] se. Everybody had a job. And then because it was a boarding school, even the [00:21:55] kids who were not boarding full time, they would have to be. And they [00:22:00] had a room and a bed that they would stay a certain amount of time per [00:22:05] semester.

Payman Langroudi: To be part of it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because they had to be in there because in the dorm you also had [00:22:10] leadership positions. So it’s either dorm, prefect, hall, prefect, [00:22:15] someone who’s responsible for making sure that the trash is taken out [00:22:20] in the kitchen, is cleaned up, and then everybody had to have those [00:22:25] positions. And for me, that was very odd, very strange. But [00:22:30] then I came back home and I was like the one who would say hi to everybody [00:22:35] or say, oh, I really like your skirt. Oh, you look so nice.

Payman Langroudi: Normally happen in Lithuania. [00:22:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: And then everybody would look at me like, she is properly insane person. [00:22:45] And I think that contributed so much to who I am now.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:50] it’s so interesting, you know, because I’ve had people here who have [00:22:55] been soldiers, um, or sometimes, you know, dentists in, in the [00:23:00] military and who’ve gone on to do unbelievable things, [00:23:05] you know, using that discipline. Um, you know, following [00:23:10] instructions, a simple thing. Yeah. But you’re a teacher. Yeah. You have a class of 12 people. [00:23:15] Four of them definitely don’t follow instructions at all, and [00:23:20] four of them follow instructions really well, and then everyone else is in the middle. Yeah. And I have had [00:23:25] similar situations. There are certain individuals who just follow instructions. They do what they’re [00:23:30] taught. Yeah. And the military kind of makes you that person. Yeah. So I’ve [00:23:35] had I’ve had a guy here, um, Mike pesca and he’s, he’s like gone [00:23:40] from the military to opening a practice, selling it four [00:23:45] years later for ten times what he bought it for, then teaching other dentists and, [00:23:50] and he puts it all down to having the mindset of discipline and following instructions. [00:23:55] Then you get other types of soldiers who have been through war and [00:24:00] are damaged goods. Yeah. You know, they’ve got PTSD and they can’t relate [00:24:05] and work. And I was trying to find out from him, you know, how come one guy comes out and [00:24:10] uses uses it like that and another guy comes out and ends up homeless or, [00:24:15] or or whatever, you know, what’s the difference between those two people? But that’s [00:24:20] an aside. I want to get back to you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it’s a brain damaged again, I guess.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [00:24:25]

Agne Malisauskiene: Do you know about the brain scans that they would do? They did a test from [00:24:30] the troops that would come back from Afghanistan, for example.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: They would age in [00:24:35] one session that they go they go for like what, six months in one session?

Agne Malisauskiene: One day.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. One tour. [00:24:40] They would age minimum five years. Some would age like 30 years. [00:24:45]

Agne Malisauskiene: Wow.

Agne Malisauskiene: And that PTSD is insane. Like they hear something gets [00:24:50] bombs in their heads.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I guess it depends where they were stationed and all the [00:24:55] rest of them and still personal things.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Think it’s the odd soldier that that [00:25:00] happens to, but the way people describe it to me is the odd soldier that it doesn’t [00:25:05] happen to, you know, in those conditions, like living in that condition of constantly thinking [00:25:10] something is going to go wrong. And and like you say, explosions, helicopters. Um, I’ve got another [00:25:15] friend who used to teach on MSM. And every time a helicopter would go over, he would fall to the [00:25:20] ground, you know, like because of his experience.

Payman Langroudi: Here you go.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I want to know [00:25:25] about how did you even find out about this school and why were you this swotty kid? Like, why? [00:25:30] When do you remember not being top of your class?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve always been [00:25:35] that.

Payman Langroudi: Kid.

Agne Malisauskiene: My kid is as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:25:40] is there is there not a why there? So like, you know, like, you know, like some people are, there’s [00:25:45] sometimes there’s an event or there’s a situation, one person sort [00:25:50] of ends up jumping into their books.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [00:25:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, just a good girl. Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, it was, [00:26:00] um, you know, maybe it’s odd to say, but it [00:26:05] was not like I would never study before the exam past [00:26:10] 10 p.m., I had the saying that if you didn’t eat enough, you [00:26:15] don’t have what to look from. Right. So I would never study before the exam.

Payman Langroudi: Like if I [00:26:20] the night before, you mean?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, if I but not any night. I would go to sleep [00:26:25] at 10 p.m. and I would wake up at seven in the morning. And, um, [00:26:30] and I think that I would always say that with your fresh brain, you can think [00:26:35] better. For me, even now, dentistry is very logical. If you [00:26:40] actually, if I needed to memorise, this is why I was bad in history. There’s no [00:26:45] logic there. Well, now I think it is because you can follow the [00:26:50] circadian kind of, uh, things that happen, right? But, um, everything [00:26:55] in school is quite logical. If you use your brain, you can [00:27:00] find the answers to things. And I think I was using [00:27:05] that brain. So for me, I would rather have my brain working rather [00:27:10] than I didn’t sleep and I didn’t do something right. So sometimes I would do like this, [00:27:15] especially I remember the, uh, an anatomy exam in university. It [00:27:20] was like so hard. And I was like, please, please, please don’t. We would have to pick out the [00:27:25] the bone kind of names. And then we have to tell everything about the bone. I ended [00:27:30] up getting, um, a palm, all the bones. And I was like, I did [00:27:35] not read about this, but then because it’s Latin, you can [00:27:40] think about the bone, where it starts, where it ends, and you can figure out the name [00:27:45] because somebody had to name these things or tuberosities or something. Yeah, [00:27:50] they had to name it and they didn’t invent the names out of like anything. [00:27:55] It was made in perfect on purpose. So I got like my, I don’t know what B plus [00:28:00] without knowing anything, it just logic’s out of that.

Agne Malisauskiene: And coming back to the school. [00:28:05] It was not the school, it’s the program. It’s called the American Secondary Schools for International Students [00:28:10] and Teachers. It’s a big program. It’s just global, right? So they take [00:28:15] 10th graders or 15 year olds at that time, generally, depending on what [00:28:20] grade you are, I guess now. Um, and then you need, um, transcript from [00:28:25] school. Uh, you need to show that you’re doing extracurriculars. So that means [00:28:30] pictures and some notes. And then you need one English teacher recommendation and [00:28:35] two other teachers recommendations. And then you send that out. Um, and [00:28:40] then their English language exam, which is very easy. And [00:28:45] then, and then there is an interview. So we were 33 at [00:28:50] the interview, the final stages, the interview. So they, they kind of a check first, the grades [00:28:55] and everything else. References. Then they choose, they chose it. My year was 110 [00:29:00] I think for the English language exam and after the exam it was 33 [00:29:05] that went in for the interview. And um you don’t pick schools [00:29:10] so it’s it’s chosen for you. I think at that time it was like 500 schools in the [00:29:15] US. And then but the interviewers, because I know now how it [00:29:20] goes. So interviewers, what they do, they kind of mark and they have kind of a, they look at you [00:29:25] and they kind of have an idea that you would belong well, in that school. [00:29:30] How would they choose a military academy for me when, when my friend got, um, [00:29:35] she was not my friend at that time. We met there and my friend got all girls school. [00:29:40] That was a lot different than mine was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: But, um, [00:29:45] but then you get chosen and then you wait for the like I got, [00:29:50] I got in the list. So I was there and then you get a month later [00:29:55] an email with the school when you cannot really say no anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Changed [00:30:00] your life in a way, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh it does. And now I’m quite active on the [00:30:05] on the on that program I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Agne Malisauskiene: Donate money. [00:30:10] I do.

Payman Langroudi: Believe.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I do feel like, you know, it helped me so much. And [00:30:15] I know the organisation, the charity, the fund that is involved in organising [00:30:20] that in Lithuania. So I do that through them. It’s super nice and [00:30:25] it’s nice. I think it’s this is the American thought as well. They [00:30:30] everybody had to do charity work in school as well. Everybody [00:30:35] had to be involved.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Payman Langroudi: Charity sector in America is gigantic.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Gigantic. [00:30:40] Partly because the state doesn’t help.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s in a way that it does [00:30:45] more heavy lifting the charity sector in the US and people, people who [00:30:50] make it in the US tend to like do some form of [00:30:55] charity, whether it’s a religious thing or whether they just want to be famous [00:31:00] for being a philanthropist or whatever. As a as a country, it’s one of the [00:31:05] cornerstones. Whereas here there is charity, but there’s also a state. There’s a safety [00:31:10] net that, you know, you lose your job in America, you can fall right through the net. [00:31:15] You know, if you a couple of bad things can happen here and you could fall right through the net, the [00:31:20] health insurance.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s a country of winning and losing, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: You know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:31:25] tell me this. When did dentistry come into the mix? Did you have any family [00:31:30] members?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: Well, what did your parents do?

Agne Malisauskiene: My. [00:31:35] My parents both graduated from, um, university. [00:31:40] That is for teachers. So, um, my dad was supposed to be [00:31:45] a teacher of, I don’t know how you call it, but this like crafts, the wooden kind of thing. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is where everybody went because they wanted to go to university. That was like [00:31:55] easy escape. You just get in. You don’t apply, you just get in. And my mom [00:32:00] was supposed to be a physics teacher, though she was. She always wanted to be a doctor. She [00:32:05] was smart enough to be a doctor, but she was from a small village out of, [00:32:10] um, five, six kids. Let’s just call them. And, um, [00:32:15] her older sister didn’t get into the pharmacy the first year, and [00:32:20] she was like, ashamed of that. So she didn’t want to see that. So she just went to be a physics [00:32:25] teacher because she knew she will get in easily. Um, and [00:32:30] my dad, so my mom was working at university of those teachers [00:32:35] again.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Was working in.

Agne Malisauskiene: She was working.

Agne Malisauskiene: At the same university. Um, and [00:32:40] my dad was a driver for the pharmaceutical company. He still is.

Agne Malisauskiene: And, [00:32:45] you know, he was like.

Payman Langroudi: What they call what your dad learned is here, they call [00:32:50] it design and tech. Yeah, yeah. Um, interestingly, you know, he did a, a level [00:32:55] final exam in design and tech, as well as physics, maths and chemistry, [00:33:00] whatever the ones you need to get into dentistry. And he says that that design and tech thing [00:33:05] helped him much more or helps him much more every day than [00:33:10] physics, chemistry and maths. Um.

Agne Malisauskiene: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:33:15] of, you know, like just a lot of dentistry is engineering in a way, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: So [00:33:20] that’s a thing. Everybody says it’s an art. For me, it’s so far from art [00:33:25] because you’re not creating anything. You’re copying what you do. You’re just trying [00:33:30] to copy something, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And forms. Form follows. Function. Right. That’s it. [00:33:35] Really. When you first click that, I think for me, it was maybe eight years after I qualified [00:33:40] where it just clicked that why are these things, these shapes? Why [00:33:45] are they these shapes? There’s a reason, there’s a reason, there’s a reason. There’s weather. You know, there’s a contact [00:33:50] where food doesn’t get in or there’s a lip, you know, there’s the the space for your tongue. You know, [00:33:55] there’s all of it is for a reason or you’re, of course, the occlusion and the way things move over each other. And [00:34:00] it’s a very empowering idea. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. And I think of a.

Agne Malisauskiene: Dentistry [00:34:05] as engineering, but also as a craft. So it’s a craft. And, [00:34:10] and I guess if somebody asked me.

Payman Langroudi: Attention to detail is this is this what [00:34:15] you mean by craft?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, crafty, that means that you can do [00:34:20] small, tiny things with your hands, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And, uh, [00:34:25] and if somebody asked me, oh, do you think I should go to dental school? [00:34:30] I say, did you do any crafts as a kid? Meaning you would sit for hours and do small, [00:34:35] tiny things with your hands? I don’t know whether that’s plasticine, something like moulding something [00:34:40] with your hands or knitting or crochet for me was crochet. I would make [00:34:45] like crochet napkins to all the aunts, but I would not make one. I would [00:34:50] get a set for them, and it was so fast in that I did make myself [00:34:55] like pants and purses and things like that. So it’s very hard for [00:35:00] me to sell craft because I look at it. I’m like, I was eight, I could do that. [00:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so, so so why dentistry? Like because of that.

Agne Malisauskiene: But no. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: How did it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Happen? My, um, my uncle’s wife was a dentist and [00:35:15] there was a dental chair, uh, probably super illegal thing. She [00:35:20] had a dental chair in the grandma’s wooden house where there was [00:35:25] no running water. I don’t just, I remember as a very small child [00:35:30] that she would have that dental chair. I don’t know why, but maybe it was just stored there. But [00:35:35] I remember that, uh, but we were not close to them. I just knew that she [00:35:40] was a dentist. That was pretty much it. And then, um, I was super scared of dentists. Like [00:35:45] my heart would like flutter. And when I had to get sealants, I told my mom I will do [00:35:50] it myself. She should wait downstairs. I never came in. I just went to the bathroom, sat there [00:35:55] for a little waited, and then I left and I said, it’s all done.

Payman Langroudi: Does that inform the [00:36:00] way you handle patients? Like nervous patients? Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I’m [00:36:05] I go through the jokes like if they say I’m scared and I [00:36:10] said, good, because I am not. It would be a problem that if I was [00:36:15] scared and then suddenly they’re like, changed their minds. I talk through [00:36:20] what I do and I say, there’s going to be a moment that you will fall asleep. And [00:36:25] they’re like, no, no, not me, not me. And I’m like, yes, there’s going to be a moment that you will fall asleep. That’s fine. [00:36:30] I will wake you up when I need to do the polishing because this will scare you, the sounds and everything [00:36:35] else. And um, so it’s quite fine. I did have patient [00:36:40] long, long time ago, after I graduated. The one that would [00:36:45] have her hands over her mouth. She was a kid. Um, it took me [00:36:50] five visits to get the hands off. Um, I was very young [00:36:55] and very determined, so I had to do this. And that kid. Oh, she [00:37:00] would go to me for forever to listen.

Payman Langroudi: People underestimate if [00:37:05] you’re good with nervous patients. People underestimate what a massive thing that is. Because, [00:37:10] you know, I don’t know about, uh, Lithuania, but here the studies that I [00:37:15] saw, half the population are scared, of course. So that means that means half the. And [00:37:20] then the great thing about scared patients is they talk to each other when they find one, [00:37:25] a gentle dentist, they talk to each other and it runs in families somehow. You [00:37:30] know, the scare stories about dentists runs. So the word of mouth is gigantic. [00:37:35]

Agne Malisauskiene: Just look at the parents.

Agne Malisauskiene: That they bring kids to the dentist and they say the dentist will [00:37:40] not do anything to you. Of course they will. Like why? It’s not gonna hurt. [00:37:45] They’re not gonna know. You don’t say that. You say yes, they’re gonna have to [00:37:50] do something, but they will tell you what they’re doing. It’s not something. It’s not the punishment that, you know, [00:37:55] parents would make this as a punishment, bringing their own kids to [00:38:00] a dentist appointment. Or this is what I realised. I’ve done that to my kid as well. [00:38:05] Not with the dentist that I said, do you want to go to the hospital? And I was like, no, you [00:38:10] should never do this because it’s not a bad place. So I was like, policemen are good people [00:38:15] who are trying to help. If you need help, you seek for one. That’s fine. It’s, [00:38:20] you know, a doctor is someone who’s trying to help you. Nobody’s trying to hurt you, you know? So [00:38:25] I think that’s just.

Agne Malisauskiene: A mindset.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of a big change in culturally in [00:38:30] Lithuania. I’m sure that when you were a kid going to the dentist [00:38:35] was I remember in Iran, right? The dentist would shout at the kid straight away.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh [00:38:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They would just to just to get compliance and they could be so scared. Um, and then you look at Lithuania [00:38:45] today where, I mean, I see the way you are with, with your kids, like in a totally different [00:38:50] situation.

Agne Malisauskiene: Paediatric dentists have like hats on their like, and then there’s cartoons [00:38:55] and things are going on. And my kids, they’re like the ones that are, they come [00:39:00] to me with a single tooth toothbrush and floss every [00:39:05] night. And I sit in the corridor and they lay back like [00:39:10] they’re like a patient and I floss, and I use this thing because they brush their teeth with the [00:39:15] toothbrush, which is nothing. Right? So then they come with single tooth toothbrush and floss. This [00:39:20] is my job. And, um, Manta says, my husband, he says, this is your [00:39:25] personal time with them.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, they’re a minute [00:39:30] of, uh, of, of mommy and kid time and they love it. It’s just so weird [00:39:35] because they do like the clean mouth. They do like the, I don’t know, going to a dentist for [00:39:40] them. It’s a cool.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing.

Payman Langroudi: I want to touch on two areas that I think are kind of related. Yeah, [00:39:45] you may disagree, but I want to get to. Okay. You can be, you can be a really hard working, studying [00:39:50] person. Yeah. But not have the ambition [00:39:55] side. Yeah. Like, I think I have plenty of friends top [00:40:00] of their class.

Agne Malisauskiene: I do two.

Payman Langroudi: Top, top of their class, but now like they’re [00:40:05] in an institution, you know, institutionalised.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like [00:40:10] love school and almost love rules. But, you know, out there in the real world, [00:40:15] rules, people break rules. Yeah. And they’re almost like, can’t handle the fact that people break rules. So [00:40:20] they stay in universities and schools and institutions. So but you, [00:40:25] you’ve got this sort of ambition that you can’t ignore. I can’t ignore [00:40:30] when I think about, you know, your trajectory, the ambition is huge.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is.

Payman Langroudi: So I want [00:40:35] to know where that comes from. I want to know what it feels like to be that person, but also, [00:40:40] I think the reverse side of that coin is sacrifice.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [00:40:45] I don’t know. Well, first and foremost, about the ambition, um, [00:40:50] the idea for me was always, I [00:40:55] don’t play games that I cannot win. So if I play the game, I will do [00:41:00] everything competitive. I’m very competitive. Like I would go racing [00:41:05] in school. Um, running. Um, I [00:41:10] was probably not the fittest one, not the fastest one, but the adrenaline would go [00:41:15] up. Like I was the most determined and I would run the fastest [00:41:20] only because the adrenaline runs so high. I don’t [00:41:25] play poker. You know why? Because once, if I would learn how to.

Payman Langroudi: Play poker face.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, [00:41:30] it’s like I have, like, subtitles on my forehead. But then if I were to do that, [00:41:35] I would be into that, I’m sure.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see, yeah. [00:41:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: So for me, everything is a little bit of a game.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I love it. [00:41:45] And I love competition. Anything in anything and everything from [00:41:50] the childhood. And there is a thing, and this is probably [00:41:55] comes from the background, trying to prove yourself to anyone and everyone. [00:42:00] Like.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the kind of person? If I say you’ll never achieve that, then you’re gonna [00:42:05] 1,000% achieve it.

Agne Malisauskiene: So this is what happened with that channel.

Agne Malisauskiene: At the end of the day, [00:42:10] this is what happened with dentistry. Um, because when I was in the US, I [00:42:15] had this private scholarship to go to Stanford to study economics [00:42:20] and Russian language. Wow. I’m pretty sure I would be in Siberia running some cigarette [00:42:25] business right now, but because there would be in that school, it’s it’s college prep. They would [00:42:30] come. Certain people, let’s just call them that. And they pick and choose and they [00:42:35] give you interviews and then they say, we can pay you if you go reach this great [00:42:40] SATs, SATs because you need some threshold. Right. And I did the perfect [00:42:45] score of all these exams. I never understood how I don’t have to pay what everybody else [00:42:50] pays for the exams. I never paid for any of these exams, so probably [00:42:55] somebody paid for that. I don’t know how that goes. Now, thinking about the American.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:43:00] were training you to be a spy.

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m pretty sure. Like there was something about that. And [00:43:05] so that idea was out there, you know, they’re kind of like, [00:43:10] I can go to a very fancy school, right? There’s like a dream come true. And [00:43:15] then I went back home and I went to 12th year and [00:43:20] in Lithuania and the final exam preparation is final two years, the first [00:43:25] year, which is 11th grade. What you do, you need to read all the books [00:43:30] because Lithuanian language exam is the main exam. Right. And for that main exam, [00:43:35] we had to write an interpretation or an essay. But you need to have a background of those books [00:43:40] because they give you an expert excerpt. And then you have to write down. Right. And I didn’t read any [00:43:45] of those books. So Lithuanian language teacher who was new at the school, she said, when I came in [00:43:50] to 12th grade that I made them let me go in, even though I didn’t do [00:43:55] any chemistry in 11th grade at all, because it did not fit my fancy [00:44:00] schedule in the school. But, um, so that Lithuanian language teacher, she [00:44:05] said, you will not graduate because you didn’t read books and you don’t have time anymore. And [00:44:10] I said, okay. And she said, if you fail, you will not [00:44:15] get into university. And I said, what is the hardest to get into? And she said, [00:44:20] dentistry. And I said, watch me. I got 100%. We get graded by the curve. [00:44:25] I got 100% from Lithuanian exam. I went in and I told her.

Payman Langroudi: So dentistry is the hardest thing to get into. Or [00:44:30] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was. Well, maybe.

Agne Malisauskiene: It still is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s become that way now when I when [00:44:35] I qualified, it wasn’t. But it’s become that way here. It’s much harder than medicine to get. Not much harder. It’s [00:44:40] harder than medicine.

Agne Malisauskiene: To get it.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s usually when, when somebody in medicine we say, you didn’t get into [00:44:45] dentistry.

Agne Malisauskiene: In my day, my day.

Payman Langroudi: Was the exact opposite. I’d say maybe half my year, [00:44:50] a quarter of my year, were people who couldn’t get into medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Think about [00:44:55] it. Just five.

Payman Langroudi: Years compared to ten.

Payman Langroudi: Years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just five.

Agne Malisauskiene: Years compared [00:45:00] to ten.

Payman Langroudi: Years. How were you.

Payman Langroudi: As a as a dental student? Like which student were you? The hardest working one in the [00:45:05] room. That guy. The party. The party animal?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: Who were you?

Agne Malisauskiene: It [00:45:10] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: A small. It was 27 of us.

Agne Malisauskiene: In the year.

Agne Malisauskiene: That year. And [00:45:15] then we were divided into four women.

Payman Langroudi: Right. I noticed.

Agne Malisauskiene: Two boys.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:20] funny.

Agne Malisauskiene: We graduated with one. Uh, [00:45:25] whose dad was the head of the dental chamber.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:45:30] which which student were you? What kind of student were you? Did you find it easy?

Agne Malisauskiene: I mean, the practical [00:45:35] aspect. Things.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Were you were you were you?

Agne Malisauskiene: I was the one organising things. I [00:45:40] was good at school, so I was not. I was not memorising things. I was not aiming [00:45:45] for the perfect ace because I really hoped for that. Like life. I wanted [00:45:50] like a college life. Never had that Dental students don’t really have that. But I had [00:45:55] amazing classmates and we. That group of. When [00:46:00] they divided us into that was we could choose our group. So, um, [00:46:05] I was, I don’t know, I was the organiser of things and I was the organiser [00:46:10] of events because we would have those events, right? The christenings and whatever things they [00:46:15] do that in universities. So I was organiser of things. Um I was the one [00:46:20] who was doing good, but we were the group that we would get the most practical work because [00:46:25] our teachers, the whole group, so the teachers would trust us and we would [00:46:30] get patients from residents. So we had a lot of hands on. We didn’t have to help each other work. So [00:46:35] we every, you know, the fifth year, for example, it was six hour hands [00:46:40] on work on patients every day. And, um, so [00:46:45] we get to do a lot of that.

Payman Langroudi: So my question about ambition [00:46:50] and the other side of it being sacrifice. Do you not feel like you’ve sacrificed anything in this journey? [00:46:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a.

Agne Malisauskiene: Priority. You have, you have. If somebody says, I sacrifice something [00:47:00] this, this and that, you’re trying to put the blame on somebody [00:47:05] else or on something.

Payman Langroudi: So I see how hard you guys work. Yeah, I was [00:47:10] there that weekend. You had another course going on. Um, you know, multiple hours. [00:47:15] Um, the sacrifice in that, you know.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is there is the kids.

Payman Langroudi: The kids [00:47:20] number one. I mean, it doesn’t have to be the kids. I know as a mother, you always have to be sort of programmed [00:47:25] to feel guilty about how little time you spend.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like men.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Guilt.

Agne Malisauskiene: My little one, [00:47:30] he translates very well. He was like, mommy, no, please don’t go. Don’t go anywhere. Can I go into your suitcase? [00:47:35]

Payman Langroudi: But but but so you accept sacrifice as.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, like a norm. [00:47:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, the interesting thing about it is I think about when doing [00:47:45] a product launch, you know, it things get so hairy, like this ministry of [00:47:50] sound thing that’s coming up now. Things, things get so much, by the way, you’re lecturing, amazing [00:47:55] things get so busy that even silly things. I mean, I missed my brother’s [00:48:00] birthday because I literally couldn’t, you know, I had to do whatever I had to do. Um, [00:48:05] as a business owner, you end up doing that. And then when you layer [00:48:10] in travel on top of that and you just got off a plane, [00:48:15] right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even a short flight to, to Vilnius or from Vilnius to London is tiring. [00:48:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiring, you know, sitting around the airport, the dehydration. Though, and [00:48:25] so did the driver. The source of the flame driving you? [00:48:30] Is it like something to do with. You want to live up to your potential? Is [00:48:35] it a financial thing?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m pretty.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sure I’m still trying to prove everybody. [00:48:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Wrong. Really?

Agne Malisauskiene: Really it. It is like [00:48:45] that. Um. Yesterday my friend, um, sent me this reel on Instagram [00:48:50] and on the reel they’re talking to the female. The first female [00:48:55] to the astronauts. Now, who are going on to the moon, right. So [00:49:00] there’s an interview and they’re like, so if you can say just before your flight something, [00:49:05] uh, what would you say? And she said, mom, I’m [00:49:10] a good am I good enough now?

Agne Malisauskiene: And I was like, that’s [00:49:15] the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: That’s the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Are you good enough? And you know, [00:49:20] I grew up in the you know, my husband always says that you have to understand the environment. [00:49:25] I’m like, yeah, but no, I grew up in that environment [00:49:30] that, you know, in Soviet times, at least at that time, the [00:49:35] kids were happening. Nobody knew how they were happening, but everybody had [00:49:40] kids and they had the kids very young age. And the kids were burdened [00:49:45] at the same time as the if you have a kid, you get more food stamps, [00:49:50] so you can go get more food. Like you would not not get like, I think meat [00:49:55] stamps unless you had a child. So that was a lot different. [00:50:00] So for all of the kids that are around my age or older, [00:50:05] we were raised, um, differently. So we were raised as [00:50:10] nobody would come up and say, oh darling, I love you. The first time I heard [00:50:15] I Love You from my mom. I think that was to my kid. It was to my kid when he was around [00:50:20] two.

Agne Malisauskiene: I was like.

Agne Malisauskiene: What.

Agne Malisauskiene: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: Do you overcompensate with your own kids now? Like, tell them you love them too [00:50:25] many times.

Agne Malisauskiene: So.

Agne Malisauskiene: They are already numb in.

Agne Malisauskiene: That [00:50:30] kind of.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing. But it’s very strange. You know, [00:50:35] it’s just it is what it is. That was different times, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:50:40] um.

Payman Langroudi: But in those sort of pre Berlin Wall days in the [00:50:45] Soviet times, what was the sort of community situation. Did you I [00:50:50] mean were, but most kids, both parents working and then the kids kind [00:50:55] of being looked after in a, in a, in a, in a situation together.

Agne Malisauskiene: I [00:51:00] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: I was raised like, so first and foremost, um, I was two at [00:51:05] the time we got our independence.

Agne Malisauskiene: And Berlin, etc. so I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Don’t really remember. [00:51:10] I know the stories. Um, I was raised in, uh, student [00:51:15] dormitory till I was nine, so there was like a student family dormitories [00:51:20] that there’s like a corridor, right? Everybody got a room that they. And [00:51:25] it was, they call it privatised. They still had to buy something like a room [00:51:30] in there. But I was raised in that all the parents were, let’s [00:51:35] just say when I was five, all the parents were around 25 [00:51:40] and all the kids were around five. So there’s a corridor party. [00:51:45] All the kids are in one room sleeping on the chairs or somewhere like that if [00:51:50] the parents are working. I was told that they would kind of exchange [00:51:55] between each other, but at a certain time I would be alone [00:52:00] for like an hour or so when I was a baby. Or it’s very interesting. I do not [00:52:05] remember those times because, um, my sister was born when I was five. And [00:52:10] that time I remember because mom was at home because it was completely different system. Then they could stay [00:52:15] with kids and so on. But you could go out outside, play [00:52:20] with your friends for like a half of the day.

Agne Malisauskiene: And no one would know anything.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then [00:52:25] they would just yell.

Agne Malisauskiene: Somebody or something.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Also a beautiful thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: That was fine.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was [00:52:30] safe somehow. Now it doesn’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Seem like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then your your kids.

Payman Langroudi: Now what happens when [00:52:35] you’re away? Nannies and all that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, my mom mostly, um, [00:52:40] she’s with kids. She loves them. They’re more like caring. [00:52:45] They’re the ones that would hug and then they would sit on the lap because they’re like, they’re raised by us. [00:52:50] They’re cuties. And, and then and she likes to be [00:52:55] around them. So she’s mostly there. Then my mom as well, my sister, [00:53:00] we, we’ve.

Agne Malisauskiene: Left two kids.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sister. And then we have [00:53:05] a nanny who lives two houses away. So she would come in whenever we need her. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: So tell me a typical week, a typical week where you’re teaching abroad.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so.

Payman Langroudi: What are we.

Payman Langroudi: Talking? [00:53:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s always the same. Every week is the same for me.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, except for sometimes I don’t [00:53:20] fly. So it’s Monday. Tuesday? Wednesday. I go to the clinic. Um. I drive the older one [00:53:25] to school. I go to the clinic. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it your own?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. [00:53:30]

Payman Langroudi: Your associate.

Agne Malisauskiene: Rent? No, I rent a room.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you rent a room?

Agne Malisauskiene: I rent a room. It’s easier.

Payman Langroudi: Is that with [00:53:35] us?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mindaugas has has his own.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: He didn’t want me there. [00:53:40] He said we spend too much time together. He said we probably like. We [00:53:45] would not be friends anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I said no. He’s like, what if the autoclave breaks?

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:53:50] I’m like, no.

Payman Langroudi: So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday you’re working. What? Long hours?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: I work nine [00:53:55] to 3 to 4, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And then and the kind and the patients [00:54:00] are all what. Referred.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. Or dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Really.

Agne Malisauskiene: Half [00:54:05] of my patients are dentists.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re basically doing anterior direct on everyone.

Agne Malisauskiene: That’s the only thing I do. I have [00:54:10] a hygienist, um, and an assistant. So hygienist is the one who does [00:54:15] hygienes whitening and stuff like that. And I have an assistant who runs the whole [00:54:20] operation.

Payman Langroudi: And the referral base are all these people who’ve come to your courses basically.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [00:54:25] so they’re either. No not really. It’s um, people who come to my courses, I encourage [00:54:30] them to do and practice themselves. I get patients from orthodontists [00:54:35] mainly.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Post author.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: So post ortho most of the time. [00:54:40] And then the and I would like handle the patient and he would do the posteriors. I would do [00:54:45] the interior, something like that. Um so.

Agne Malisauskiene: So that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Monday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Tuesday, Wednesday, [00:54:50] uh, on Tuesdays after work, I go to work out. On [00:54:55] Wednesdays I go to play paddle.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Something I suck at, but I’m trying [00:55:00] to get better.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know?

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed? What time do you wake up?

Agne Malisauskiene: We go to bed [00:55:05] around midnight and we wake up 650. But [00:55:10] the thing is that it’s been eight years, eight and a half years since [00:55:15] I have slept through the night. Like for the past eight years, I think I’ve slept through the night [00:55:20] maybe 20 times.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Agne Malisauskiene: Because they wake up [00:55:25] these boys. They either come in first up till the age of like [00:55:30] four. The older one, up to the age of four, he would scream, Mama! Mama! [00:55:35] Like 2 or 3 times a night, right? So wake up, walk to his room. Go to the [00:55:40] room.

Payman Langroudi: You forget. You forget all of this as you get. As kids get older, you forget.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then [00:55:45] we got a baby.

Payman Langroudi: So that was that.

Agne Malisauskiene: He still. He’s four and a half. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: He still.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s still in that phase?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t know if there are nights that nothing [00:55:55] would happen. And then the older one started coming into the room, into the bed. And I [00:56:00] don’t remember what it feels.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like to sleep.

Agne Malisauskiene: And even if they’re not there, I would wake [00:56:05] up and be like.

Payman Langroudi: Alert. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Especially in the hotels. I don’t sleep well. [00:56:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult. So so that’s Monday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thursday. So [00:56:15] I either fly or I have a course at home.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:56:20] let’s imagine it’s Copenhagen for the sake of the argument. You you don’t work at [00:56:25] all on a Thursday.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, never.

Agne Malisauskiene: You don’t rent a room. I rent a room Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. [00:56:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you get to Copenhagen and then you’re teaching Friday, Saturday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Friday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Saturday. Copenhagen [00:56:35] is a place I like because on Saturday I can go back home [00:56:40] after the course.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s close enough and all.

Agne Malisauskiene: That.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a flight. It used [00:56:45] to be 920, now it’s 1055. But then I can be home at two in the morning [00:56:50] or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go with you on these trips. No, no, he’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: He.

Agne Malisauskiene: Comes he comes to some [00:56:55] places that he wants to go to. Sometimes we take kids as well. So [00:57:00] um, so then I can spend with them Sundays at home. [00:57:05] There are places that I cannot fly home. So sometimes I’m home, like Sunday [00:57:10] afternoon, and then it’s Monday again. And on the days that I don’t fly [00:57:15] anywhere, which we try to be this, we want this to be that. [00:57:20] I would fly once a month.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: Now I fly 2 or 3 times and we [00:57:25] always plan on slowing down, but we’ll see.

Payman Langroudi: It’s when it’s two weekends in a row, isn’t it? That’s [00:57:30] when it hurts the most.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. It’s gonna happen like that now.

Payman Langroudi: Victim [00:57:35] of your own success, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s going to be three weekends [00:57:40] in a row now.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it is.

Payman Langroudi: Your own course. It’s the one and the two, and the three is [00:57:45] what you’re teaching when you go to these places.

Agne Malisauskiene: The one and the two. Yeah, the one and the two. I go and [00:57:50] I teach that, and on top of it, because we make a schedule for hands on quite [00:57:55] in advance, right? So we have that quite in advance. We have these spots that [00:58:00] is going to be Paris. It’s going to be March. Um there’s going to be something else. It’s going to be [00:58:05] I don’t know, Barcelona is October, so we have these places. Then we [00:58:10] schedule that quite in advance. But then there’s going to be situations or invites [00:58:15] or things that I’m going to do in between of that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like some massive [00:58:20] event in America, like you were saying.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Or a minimalist, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: So [00:58:25] these get right in between. And [00:58:30] then if I don’t have any abroad courses, then it would be Thursday [00:58:35] only or Thursday, Friday hands on at home. So then I would have a weekend off.

Payman Langroudi: What about the setup for [00:58:40] instance. You’ve got this event tomorrow.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. We’re bringing up most of it.

Payman Langroudi: The drills.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [00:58:45] no. So, um, if the event in Lithuania, we have um [00:58:50] a total of I think 40 micro motors and, and, and [00:58:55] hand pieces and things like that. Um, in these places. [00:59:00] Micromotors. Um, handpieces curing [00:59:05] units come from the sponsors, so they would bring something [00:59:10] um in there. What we bring I break instrument kits. I bring, [00:59:15] uh, I don’t know, phantom heads.

Payman Langroudi: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: Bring phantom.

Payman Langroudi: Heads.

Agne Malisauskiene: I bring I have travel, [00:59:20] travel, phantom heads. Uh, so I have a travel phantom heads. I have so phantom [00:59:25] heads models. It’s it’s 40 kilos of stuff always travelling. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: So where is that stuff that you send that ahead of time?

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Not hear? You can’t listen [00:59:35] here easily if it’s in the suitcases too.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the suitcases. Everything [00:59:40] you need is in those suitcases.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Packed. And if uh, if that’s. [00:59:45]

Payman Langroudi: And.

Payman Langroudi: You’re going to set up tomorrow morning. Is that the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Plan? No.

Agne Malisauskiene: In the evening.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: We’re alive. Well, at least we try [00:59:50] to get the place.

Payman Langroudi: And you do it yourself.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, yeah. So now I have. I [00:59:55] learned from you. Now I have help. Uh, Michela Jarosova. [01:00:00] She’s from Czech Republic. We met on Instagram. [01:00:05] Then we met live. Um, she says that we met through Didier.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [01:00:10] And, um. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: So she comes to some of these to help out.

Agne Malisauskiene: She comes to help [01:00:15] out. She teaches as well. Um, we have together two articles [01:00:20] coming out like now in the International Journal of Aesthetic Dentistry. [01:00:25] Um, she’s a good help and [01:00:30] um, it’s nice. It’s, it’s good to have her.

Payman Langroudi: So then, I mean, I know how tiring [01:00:35] it is. I’m not even the teacher on these courses, but so you set [01:00:40] up next day, now 830 in the morning, people are coming. You teach all day.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you always do a social.

Agne Malisauskiene: A little bit of. Yes.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a good [01:00:50] idea.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s nicer because then.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody’s more outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of the classroom.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. And then they’re.

Agne Malisauskiene: More loose the next [01:00:55] day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because the next day is usually harder.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And so [01:01:00] they’re more loose. It’s more of a like I call this a workshop environment. [01:01:05] I make them walk around meaning that, um, if they need any extra [01:01:10] stuff, I make them stand up, go take it and go back because otherwise they get frozen [01:01:15] and, and you know, in place and in the shrimp position or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:01:20] so then at the end of the two days, you’re destroyed, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, [01:01:25] I don’t know.

Agne Malisauskiene: I think I’m, I’m feeding on their energy.

Agne Malisauskiene: Not destroyed. [01:01:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, what they’re saying is like less energy. They have more energy. I have I [01:01:35] become more loud.

Payman Langroudi: See, that’s the adrenaline again.

Agne Malisauskiene: But I remember [01:01:40] there was a thing that was, um. I was in Copenhagen at the airport after [01:01:45] the after those two days, I come back and I sit there and wait. [01:01:50] And it’s like that silence, you know, when the, the, the, the cortisol goes up [01:01:55] and then everything drops the dopamine dips. And I was just [01:02:00] sitting there and I needed like, you need that dopamine back somehow. And [01:02:05] I’m like, oh, there’s Bang Olufsen, let me go in and I bought a speaker. So, so then my [01:02:10] husband was like, oh, this is why they have these shops because people are tired after. And then [01:02:15] they’re just going to need that. But it is like that. It’s very, um, kind [01:02:20] of a when it’s not, I’m not tired with people when I’m left alone. [01:02:25] This is that the moment that you’re like, oh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh. [01:02:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: So that’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: The strangest.

Agne Malisauskiene: One.

Payman Langroudi: And I kind of want to get insight into [01:02:35] by emulation. I mean, I was there at the beginning with the not, [01:02:40] not that I had anything to do with it, but I was watching, I was, I was watching Panos and, and [01:02:45] the guys right at the beginning. Gianfranco, um, how did [01:02:50] you end up getting involved with them?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:02:55] actually, for someone who doesn’t know, just just quickly sum up what what is bio emulation?

Agne Malisauskiene: Bio Malaysian [01:03:00] is the group of dentists dedicated to minimally invasive biomimetic [01:03:05] dentistry. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of very highest end.

Agne Malisauskiene: They [01:03:10] push, they push.

Agne Malisauskiene: The boundaries, push.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is the idea. And, [01:03:15] um, I think that was one event that we were not organising. That was the main [01:03:20] thing. Um, and druskininkai we have this like largest event of [01:03:25] the dental chamber and Javier was there and Mindaugas was there and we [01:03:30] were at the party, I think, and Javi said, would you accept [01:03:35] this if we were to invite you?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s nice out of the blue.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. And then [01:03:40] I said yes. And I said, let me think about it. I was like, what? What [01:03:45] man? Uh, but he does that. He’s more like, I’m irrational. I’m [01:03:50] like, this is the moment. It’s okay. And he’s like, let me, let me see. And [01:03:55] I was like, what are you saying? And then by Malaysia, in London, I [01:04:00] came and.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was fun.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I think that do you remember? [01:04:05] You don’t. Oh my God. So we’re standing there talking. Panos goes by. [01:04:10] He says something. And you say, have you met Agnes? [01:04:15] And he says, yes. And he says something like, oh, you’re [01:04:20] doing a lot of stuff in Scandinavia. I follow you, I see. And you’re like, just [01:04:25] put a badge on her. And he’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: We’ll see tomorrow. And he walks [01:04:30] back and I was like, and you were like, just chatting. And I was like, what [01:04:35] does it mean?

Agne Malisauskiene: We’ll see tomorrow.

Payman Langroudi: I like there’s something about him, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then this is what they [01:04:40] then this is what they did during the break. They said, and then they invited on the stage. It was like Oscars. [01:04:45] I was like, because they didn’t tell you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it was.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. They didn’t tell me. I didn’t know that. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was a surprise.

Payman Langroudi: I love you know what I love about Malaysian events? [01:04:55] That audio visual.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. I mean, you’ve been you’ve been to so many events. Now where’s [01:05:00] the best place that you’ve seen?

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. It’s everywhere where heavier is.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [01:05:05] I guess because.

Agne Malisauskiene: Javier is um, you know, he’s computer graphic artist. Yes. And [01:05:10] he’s one of the best. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Agne Malisauskiene: And what he does, it’s. Now [01:05:15] did you see how he does the lecture with the 3D glasses now. So you can have a [01:05:20] lecture of his. You need the proper audio visual for that. Right. But he they distribute [01:05:25] distribute um 3D glasses and you can see the animations of the dentinal [01:05:30] tubules already.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful isn’t it. Once it’s in 3D.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine Javier.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is [01:05:35] incredible. Everything is so authentic. He’s not the one who would go and [01:05:40] steal other stuff. He gets copied quite a bit. But you know, it’s [01:05:45] so flattering. I don’t know it just because he’s so good Yes. What he does, [01:05:50] he’s very passionate and he’s like, he’s very geeky kind of a person. And you just ask [01:05:55] him. And then Pandora’s box opens.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a commitment as well? Do you have to do anything? [01:06:00]

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good.

Agne Malisauskiene: Just give you a badge.

Payman Langroudi: Just a brotherhood. Sisterhood.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:06:05] remember when it was just men back in the day.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s still quite predominantly [01:06:10] men.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think that is? Like, I was looking at the speakers for the minimalist [01:06:15] at Ministry of Sound. Um, and I didn’t [01:06:20] do it on purpose. I didn’t do it on purpose at all. I didn’t I didn’t think men, women anything. Yeah. But [01:06:25] it’s double it’s double the number of men than it is women.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s always.

Payman Langroudi: Like that. Why?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [01:06:30] because of society still and everything. [01:06:35] The idea is just think about it. Right? So now when I’m the one leaving and going [01:06:40] somewhere and mantis is taking care of kids, do you know what everybody thinks? Including [01:06:45] my mom, His mom or.

Agne Malisauskiene: Friends.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody [01:06:50] are like, man, what’s going on? [01:06:55] You know, he’s the one who is man.

Payman Langroudi: This is amazing, man.

Payman Langroudi: Cooking and [01:07:00] keeping us nourished.

Agne Malisauskiene: And and he works. We go to sleep. He [01:07:05] still works.

Payman Langroudi: He’s still amazing, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: He is very dedicated. You know, if I didn’t [01:07:10] find him when I was 16.

Payman Langroudi: Was it 16 high school.

Agne Malisauskiene: I met. [01:07:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Him when.

Payman Langroudi: He came back.

Agne Malisauskiene: Just before I.

Payman Langroudi: Left. Oh, really?

Agne Malisauskiene: So I met him just before I left for [01:07:20] the US. Uh, he would have been, you know, somebody else’s catch.

Agne Malisauskiene: But. [01:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. I hear what you say about your.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, it’s [01:07:30] just expected.

Payman Langroudi: But I think there’s there’s something else as well. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: That there’s also the lack [01:07:35] of ambition. Everybody waits to be inspired. Be an inspiration yourself. That’s [01:07:40] a thing from women.

Agne Malisauskiene: They’re very.

Payman Langroudi: But also lack of speaking up, you know, like, [01:07:45] like I think about it with with staff sometimes, you know, there are some staff who never, ever, ever asked [01:07:50] for a pay rise. Yeah. And then there’s others who always, always, always ask for a pay rise. Yeah. And guess [01:07:55] what.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t get.

Agne Malisauskiene: What you don’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Ask for. That’s the thing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but but women [01:08:00] don’t put themselves forward as much.

Agne Malisauskiene: As.

Agne Malisauskiene: They wait for an invitation.

Agne Malisauskiene: To do [01:08:05] something.

Agne Malisauskiene: They wait for an invitation. That’s the thing. This is. This is true. They wait for an invitation. Um, [01:08:10] nobody’s gonna invite you to anything. Um, if you want to. Do I get these [01:08:15] questions all the time? How can I do more anterior composites? Just go tell your boss [01:08:20] and your colleagues that you want to do anterior composites. They’re like, no, what will happen? What [01:08:25] happened when I did that? Do you know that was like, I don’t know, it was eight, eight years [01:08:30] ago that I came into the practice and I said, let’s have a meeting. We need a [01:08:35] team meeting and so on. And these were quite regular. So we had a team meeting and I said, [01:08:40] I decided that’s the only thing I’m going to do is going to be anterior composites. I will not do [01:08:45] anything else. And I expected this to be like, no. But [01:08:50] then my colleague, she was like, yes. Can I do only posterior composites? I don’t do [01:08:55] anything else. And then suddenly everything became so specialised.

Payman Langroudi: It’s actually a brilliant [01:09:00] way of running a practice.

Agne Malisauskiene: And that everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: Became specialised.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody got so excited.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:09:05] everybody doing.

Payman Langroudi: The stuff they love doing. There’s internal referral. It’s a beautiful thing really. [01:09:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: And then you’re doomed to get good because you’re doing the same thing over and over and over. Oh, because [01:09:15] you’re repeating yourself. You get to see patterns and everything [01:09:20] goes in patterns. Dentistry is very mathematical, very engineer like, [01:09:25] right? So you, if you take apart the computer the first time you, you’re going to put [01:09:30] it back, you’re gonna have like five things on the desk, right? You [01:09:35] didn’t know where to put that. If you’re going to do that the second time, you’re just [01:09:40] gonna get better and better and better.

Payman Langroudi: Something tells me, though, that you’re very, very strong on the pattern [01:09:45] recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bone in your brain. There’s [01:09:50] some people are like that. Some people are strong on one thing. Some people are strong on another thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I always say that.

Agne Malisauskiene: In dentistry. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: That talking to you like you’re really into this notion of pattern, pattern recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Agne Malisauskiene: It [01:10:00] is like this. I call this connect the dots.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is the idea that, you know, [01:10:05] I think that was Mindaugas idea actually. Connect the dots. This is his we were going to a course [01:10:10] in Denmark and we had to name it somehow. And I said [01:10:15] we need like a catchy phrase, right? We need a catchy phrase that will represent [01:10:20] the way we do dentistry. And we were like talking just like this, [01:10:25] this, this, this thing was going on. And he’s like, I think his kids were like painting [01:10:30] by the door thing. They’re drawing by the door thing. And he said, no, it’s connect the dots because this is what we [01:10:35] look at the tooth, we see what’s missing and we just add that on and we connect it. So this is [01:10:40] the thing now. It says every lecture of mine has the connect the dots thing. And it was [01:10:45] his idea actually. So now it’s connect the dots as patterns. Everything goes in patterns. Um [01:10:50] if you have a patient that’s always chipping, it’s, it’s not the compass, [01:10:55] it’s probably you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: You, you need to understand function [01:11:00] many more things, right? But then everything comes in patterns and um.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:11:05] was the unlock for you regarding, I mean, it’s a very different thing being a very good dentist [01:11:10] and being a very good teacher.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is completely.

Payman Langroudi: What does it unlock for you in the teaching space? [01:11:15] Because when I watched you teach, I mean, it was I, it was in Lithuania, but I could just [01:11:20] see your passion in the what, what was the moment or the, the, the kind of the [01:11:25] skill or the, I don’t know, understanding of what it is to be a good teacher, a [01:11:30] great teacher. What’s the difference in a great teacher and a good teacher? That’s that. There we go.

Agne Malisauskiene: You need to convey [01:11:35] the message so everybody understands meaning I always say [01:11:40] that, you know, any course is valuable. Any, any course that you [01:11:45] go on to is valuable as long as you’re valuable in that course. [01:11:50] If you stay put, if you listen, if you’re good, right? The [01:11:55] new information that you’re going to hear, maybe it’s going to be 5%, maybe 1%, [01:12:00] and you need to spend that time to find that information yourself, right? [01:12:05] If you come in and everything is new for me, for you, or like [01:12:10] 80% is new for you, either you’re not qualified to get to that course or somebody [01:12:15] is talking nonsense because there may be there, there are plenty of, um, you know, Dental [01:12:20] educators and educators who cannot do the work themselves. They [01:12:25] can be very good teachers at the same time, because they have this idea in their head, but somehow [01:12:30] doesn’t translate it into their hands, or maybe one thing or they’re just full [01:12:35] of shit.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there is that. But I think, you know, there’s an element of inspiration. [01:12:40] It’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because I think I think of teaching [01:12:45] dentistry anyway as breadth and depth.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:12:50] it’s a funny situation, you know, like I’m telling you at the minimalist, you can have 17 minutes [01:12:55] to talk. Right. There’s not much time. You can’t go very deep on it. But [01:13:00] but some people can inspire the audience to pay attention [01:13:05] and listen. And some people can’t. And some people are masters at it. [01:13:10] And some people are, to your point, some people are. That’s their absolute skill. Yeah. [01:13:15] And you know, what they say might be rubbish, but they’ve just they’re just showmen, you know. They know [01:13:20] how to, you know, command an audience.

Agne Malisauskiene: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Um but, but it’s [01:13:25] a, it’s a certain kind of skill where you have to mix depth, breadth, inspiration, [01:13:30] practicality, you know, inspiration, practicality on two different levels. You know, sometimes [01:13:35] you get to buy a Malaysian. You look at what the guy has done or what he’s saying. Anything that has nothing to do with what I’m going [01:13:40] to do on Monday morning. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Why not?

Payman Langroudi: I remember Gianfranco talking about this layer he was [01:13:45] putting in. That was the a d j layer.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh dear God.

Payman Langroudi: Like you had the dentyne. [01:13:50] You had the enamel. But there was this other layer of, of basically see through composite that he was putting. [01:13:55] That was the a DJI looked at it, I was like, come on, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [01:14:00] but this is true. They’re pushing the boundaries.

Payman Langroudi: That’s their role. But this is what I’m saying about in [01:14:05] teaching, you have to mix all of those. You have to inspire people. You have to be practical.

Agne Malisauskiene: You have to inspire and [01:14:10] be practical.

Agne Malisauskiene: For me, it’s empower.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. So you have to give them [01:14:15] tools in the ideas. And what I say the best thing is to teach [01:14:20] how to use their eyes so the brain would [01:14:25] comprehend what the hands have to do.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And this is the hardest [01:14:30] thing, right? You can show them the most beautiful pictures you [01:14:35] can Photoshop to whatever you want. Copy paste, whatever thing.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:40] there’s plenty of that, by the way. Plenty of photoshopping.

Agne Malisauskiene: Going on.

Payman Langroudi: In our [01:14:45] world there, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a lot of fake things, but, [01:14:50] you know. Uh, anyways, but what you need to [01:14:55] teach them is how to see that we’re like, [01:15:00] what I teach in my courses is where to look from direction [01:15:05] of you sometimes matters much more direction [01:15:10] of you because we’re used to our patients on our laps, right? If we’re very [01:15:15] ergonomic, what do we see? We see nothing. We don’t see something. We see opposite [01:15:20] view first and foremost, and then we don’t see the three dimensional [01:15:25] view of the tooth. We lose everything when the tooth dehydrates.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:15:30] we lose the all perception of volume. Then we have our loop lights and [01:15:35] then their orange filters, and then we lose all the possible depth. [01:15:40] So the volume control gets impossible unless I [01:15:45] show them what to look for and where, what side to look from. How, how [01:15:50] what I see. And then recently what I started. So I finished the Instagram post on the plane. [01:15:55] I’m quite efficient. So I try to, you know, spend time doing things. Um, [01:16:00] I started recording everything. I have a loop camera. [01:16:05] It’s not fantastic. It’s as good as it gets at this point. But I have a loop camera. I [01:16:10] record everything that means I will give them the actual view [01:16:15] that I’m seeing, right? Not random camera facing the facial view. [01:16:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Very good point. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Agne Malisauskiene: Point, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it’s very important.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is super.

Agne Malisauskiene: Important. So [01:16:25] everybody would understand what I see and why I see it? And then once I have [01:16:30] these shadows, right, the dense shadowing, they’re usually sitting next to me. And then [01:16:35] they kind of like cure and everything else. There’s also now a computer open [01:16:40] that they can see what I’m seeing through my loops. They have a little bit bigger view because [01:16:45] my loops are six and there’s like three and a half or something like that, but they still see the [01:16:50] idea of it, like what I’m seeing because from their perspective, [01:16:55] it’s also a different thing.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that thing where he takes the picture of [01:17:00] the contralateral, he flips.

Agne Malisauskiene: It. Yeah, yeah, I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Do that.

Agne Malisauskiene: As well.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:17:05] flipping, I used to think, you know, come on, man, how difficult can it be? But it’s absolutely true. Yeah. That’s an [01:17:10] extra step your brain doesn’t have to do now. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then.

Agne Malisauskiene: You can focus on and I increase the. [01:17:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: The, I increase.

Agne Malisauskiene: The contrast.

Agne Malisauskiene: The chroma everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I can mimic that much better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:20] And so it’s so interesting. It’s so interesting. The first time I saw his work, I thought he’s [01:17:25] a genius. Yeah. I called up the guys in America. I said, I found this child genius. It’s amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then [01:17:30] I know.

Agne Malisauskiene: The guy in America.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But [01:17:35] then when later on I found out that is what he was doing here. It [01:17:40] makes it like no one is a bloody genius.

Payman Langroudi: Dear God.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like you said, it’s repetition. [01:17:45] It’s pattern recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: Dentistry is easy, right? [01:17:50]

Agne Malisauskiene: We we will still make mistakes, whatever we do. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: The [01:17:55] idea is dentistry is actually easy, if you really think about it. If you [01:18:00] put the brain into it, dentistry is easy. It’s we’re copying something. And [01:18:05] if we make our life easier, not harder, we’re gonna get there faster. [01:18:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it’s just that that’s the thing, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: You know what annoys me sometimes? [01:18:15] Yeah. It’s the culture of hacking. Like [01:18:20] cutting, cutting corners.

Agne Malisauskiene: All the great inventions Are here [01:18:25] only because someone was too lazy to do a difficult job.

Payman Langroudi: No, but it pisses me off a little bit. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Pisses me off that it’s almost a culture of amongst dentists, of how do [01:18:35] I miss steps? You know, they want to do things quicker and they want to learn [01:18:40] hacks. By the way, hacks are great. It’s a it’s a great thing to have a hack. But sometimes [01:18:45] and I have people sit in front of me, absolute experts in their field like you are. Yeah. Sometimes [01:18:50] the key to being an expert is just not hacking, but doing the goddamn steps, [01:18:55] doing every step correctly, you know, is what makes an [01:19:00] expert. You know.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is true, but, um, just give them [01:19:05] tools to do that. But tools, I mean, just maybe looking from different angle. Yeah, [01:19:10] yeah. Seeing from a different perspective, actually taking picture of your own work.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. [01:19:15] To see what you did.

Payman Langroudi: Learn the most.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh my God. Yes. The best investment you [01:19:20] can have is just buying a good camera and a good lens, obviously. [01:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn photography?

Agne Malisauskiene: I did take like these online courses [01:19:30] of like pop a pop up I [01:19:35] did, and then everything else went through kind of a practice. I’m [01:19:40] still not really an expert because I know how to do my own photography [01:19:45] that, you know, somebody told me that I know how to show [01:19:50] what I’m showing, right? How to make a picture of something that [01:19:55] I want to show. So this is this, this is a thing. But then if you told me [01:20:00] to take a picture of a molar, I don’t know, I try I cannot work.

Agne Malisauskiene: With what you do. [01:20:05]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It’s just again, it’s practice.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you [01:20:10] what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody [01:20:15] is very good. Obviously you have to attend every and every one. But then Didier [01:20:20] the second time. Because the first time. First time I was too [01:20:25] young and too cocky and too everything to actually pay attention. And [01:20:30] I did pay attention, I assume. But I was jet lagged like crazy because [01:20:35] I hacked him down. Well, my my friend traced him down. We went [01:20:40] to his, uh, three day course in Singapore.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it was much cheaper [01:20:45] than in Geneva.

Payman Langroudi: Including the flight was.

Agne Malisauskiene: Cheaper, including.

Agne Malisauskiene: The.

Agne Malisauskiene: Flight.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:20:50] hotels and food.

Agne Malisauskiene: And everything.

Payman Langroudi: What a hack.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because in the room, they didn’t have [01:20:55] the 16 people. They had 40 something.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [01:21:00] the first time I think I got quite a bit, but the second time [01:21:05] when I got her my home, I was sitting there, I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my [01:21:10] God, oh my God, oh my God.

Agne Malisauskiene: And like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, repetition is huge, right? Repetition is huge. Even if it wasn’t [01:21:15] the same course. Like your mindset is different that the I still learn know that many smile makeover. I still [01:21:20] learn the. And I must have seen it a hundred times.

Agne Malisauskiene: But the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is that we all of us. Um, [01:21:25] when when the teachers, the educators, we add on something.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because [01:21:30] we, if we, if we.

Agne Malisauskiene: Actually practice dentistry, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: If [01:21:35] we practice dentistry. And I stress that if we practice dentistry, then we have what to [01:21:40] bring to the table every single time. And this is the thing, if you did a course three years ago, [01:21:45] it might be smart. If you liked it, that means you’re gonna like it way more now.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. [01:21:50]

Agne Malisauskiene: And, um, because the, your educator is way more experienced [01:21:55] because in those three years that you did something, they did many, many, [01:22:00] many more of that. Maybe they’ll learn something about different, I don’t know, instruments, something else, [01:22:05] anything, anything. Just the way they do things. Maybe they simplify certain [01:22:10] steps into something, not cutting corners, but like simplifying something. [01:22:15] Maybe you can instead of having, I don’t know. Do you remember when it was [01:22:20] like 20 layers of of the tooth? Do we really need that? [01:22:25] You know how hard that is. And volume control becomes a super mess. And [01:22:30] the negative space and the bubbles and everything else. It’s not the [01:22:35] time for that anymore, right?

Payman Langroudi: No. But at the time, it was revolutionary. I remember enamel [01:22:40] was the the stuff. Was that back.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then. [01:22:45] Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about what comes to mind if I ask you what is your [01:22:50] biggest clinical mistake?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, dear. Uh, [01:22:55] you know, I don’t place implants, so my implants don’t break. I [01:23:00] don’t place implants into the nerve. I, I.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Payman Langroudi: Could be a management error. Like [01:23:05] a patient error.

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, I just remembered. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny when you ask this question, suddenly the silence happens [01:23:15] and then suddenly this.

Agne Malisauskiene: I still have the picture of that patient [01:23:20] when I talk about the evolution of my own dentistry. Because you need to humble yourself, [01:23:25] otherwise you don’t understand what’s going on. So that was years ago. I thought [01:23:30] that I’m doing great dentistry, right? And I started doing a lot of those composite [01:23:35] bondings. And I won this competition in Lithuania in 2017. I [01:23:40] won the competition that was life patient. And, uh, I want [01:23:45] it. And after that, a lot of patients get flooded, like flooded me and, and [01:23:50] had this patient with crooked teeth, two centrals. And, [01:23:55] um, she was getting ready for a wedding. She was very young, I would say 25 or something [01:24:00] like that. And she wanted me to straighten the teeth with composite, and [01:24:05] I needed to shave off a little bit of a tooth. I did that, I, and [01:24:10] I did, I shaved off, I don’t know, I cut it into dentine, of course, and I did [01:24:15] two four composite veneers or something like that. She came back for a recall [01:24:20] and I saw some brownish area underlining the, the the composite. [01:24:25] So because I was working all the time, so many like crazy hours, right? [01:24:30] I did forget and I didn’t have pictures.

Agne Malisauskiene: I did forget how much [01:24:35] did I shave off. So I was trying to remove that. And I see it’s still brownish brownish, brownish up [01:24:40] until the point that I exposed the pulp. Trust [01:24:45] me, I was all sweaty. I didn’t know what to do. Vital pulp therapy at the [01:24:50] time was not a thing. I had no clue. Um. I knew there was [01:24:55] MTA somewhere, but I was afraid to ask. So [01:25:00] I put some kind of a liner, which is the glass [01:25:05] ionomer and I covered that with some opaque composite. I did etch bond [01:25:10] and whatever. And I didn’t tell anything to the patient. I [01:25:15] could not sleep for three days. Maybe I didn’t tell anyone. I [01:25:20] called in the patient for a recall a week later. Two [01:25:25] weeks later. A month later. Um, before wedding. [01:25:30] I called her in. A year later. Two years later. Three years later. She [01:25:35] was young and healthy. It was perfectly fine. X-rays, [01:25:40] everything. It’s perfectly fine. But that was. [01:25:45] And then I promised myself. I will never, ever, ever [01:25:50] do this again.

Payman Langroudi: Which bit? Which bit won’t.

Payman Langroudi: You do [01:25:55] again?

Agne Malisauskiene: I would not cut the tooth up to the pulp.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:26:00] about the bit about not telling the patient?

Agne Malisauskiene: Ah.

Agne Malisauskiene: I [01:26:05] think it was better not to tell her, because if I told her, then [01:26:10] something would have happened. Because you know how they say maybe it’s gonna hurt, so you just wait [01:26:15] for it to hurt? Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s, I don’t know. Um, so I just promised [01:26:20] myself that I would never shave off the tooth for the matter of it looking [01:26:25] better.

Payman Langroudi: I love your openness on this subject. That’s excellent. Excellent.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it is what it is, man. [01:26:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource book website podcast [01:26:35] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my god. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: For you. Instagram page. [01:26:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Instagram obviously.

Agne Malisauskiene: Which page like what are the.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:26:45] you go?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t know anything and everything. I don’t know. Um, probably [01:26:50] the, the idea is the best book ever written on anterior composites [01:26:55] is layers two.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s two.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, and a salad. I always say, um, [01:27:00] the woman’s name, so it’s by the Anna salad and colleagues.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [01:27:05] At because.

Agne Malisauskiene: I remember I was teaching this, [01:27:10] I had this, I’ve never read layers.

Payman Langroudi: I have layers, I’ve never looked at layers. [01:27:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Two, I have to.

Agne Malisauskiene: Take a take a look at one thing. And I thought I [01:27:20] invented something. So I said, bevel or not, bevel depends [01:27:25] on the line angles. If you cross the line angle, that means you’re on the buccal surface. If your [01:27:30] prep of class three right crosses the line angle, you need to bevel that. If [01:27:35] you don’t cross, you don’t need to bevel. Right? I thought this [01:27:40] is my idea. So I was teaching this for like six years up to the point that layers [01:27:45] two came out and I bought it, I pre-ordered it, I got the book and I was reading it and I was like, I [01:27:50] opened the page. And this literally, this is what’s written with the, with [01:27:55] the images on probably keynote like I did, they look very [01:28:00] alike. And I was like, oh, and then I took a picture and I sent it to Mindaugas [01:28:05] And I said, what? And he says, do you know what this means? [01:28:10] And I said, yes. Great minds think alike.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I’m pretty.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sure [01:28:15] it’s supposed to be on.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying in the in the proximal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You no longer need to bevel.

Agne Malisauskiene: No [01:28:20] I don’t unless yeah. Sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes if you don’t, you end up. It’s [01:28:25] not it’s not as obvious. But you see this kind of weird shadow if you don’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:28:30] hear you, I hear you.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s interproximal. That’s usually quite fine, but you have to understand [01:28:35] the, the width of what you’re covering, [01:28:40] right? So, uh, what I would say they maybe you need a little bit more opacity [01:28:45] in the shadows. Gone.

Agne Malisauskiene: True. That’s true.

Agne Malisauskiene: The thing is, what you see is the enamel. Because [01:28:50] enamel is the evil. If you have dentine, it’s very easy. Right? This [01:28:55] is why composite veneer is easy, because this is the actual composite veneer where you have nothing, [01:29:00] right? You have healthy tooth.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Porcelain veneer when you have all same [01:29:05] coloured aligned teeth is easy because this is the moment that you actually [01:29:10] have the blank canvas. Usually I don’t have blank canvas. What? I have a blank deep hole and [01:29:15] I need to work around that, right? So if you have a blank canvas, it’s [01:29:20] easy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting how we’re not taught in I don’t know you about you, but I wasn’t [01:29:25] taught a single word in dental school about Opacus. No, I [01:29:30] mean, but it may be the most important thing in a composite.

Agne Malisauskiene: Opacity is.

Agne Malisauskiene: The [01:29:35] most.

Payman Langroudi: You know, pictures. I mean, we just composite there is there was there was nothing about opaque [01:29:40] composite, not opaque composite. You know, it’s, I think when I don’t know, I haven’t been a dentist for a long [01:29:45] time, but when I was a dentist, almost every single composite, anterior composite and opaque [01:29:50] was used somewhere, you know, like, yeah, why? Why were we taught? [01:29:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: I really don’t know how we, I don’t I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Really don’t remember. [01:30:00]

Agne Malisauskiene: How we were taught anterior composites, I don’t remember. I don’t remember doing [01:30:05] them at all in uni. Like nobody.

Agne Malisauskiene: Would.

Agne Malisauskiene: Count. They just cavities you had like [01:30:10] it’s usually posterior contact that you keep blues or I [01:30:15] don’t know, overhang or whatever thing. It’s just.

Agne Malisauskiene: Unfortunately. [01:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end of our time. I could talk, I could talk for so long with you. Um, but I [01:30:25] gotta be somewhere. So I’m going to end with the usual question, which is [01:30:30] a fantasy dinner party. Three guests.

Agne Malisauskiene: I’ve had.

Agne Malisauskiene: That.

Payman Langroudi: Dead [01:30:35] or alive.

Agne Malisauskiene: I had if we were talking about dentists, I’ve had that already.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you met your heroes. [01:30:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yes. I’m so happy. I’ve.

Agne Malisauskiene: Who was it?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’ve eaten with all of them. [01:30:45] Uh, Newton. Paul. Didier.

Agne Malisauskiene: Pascal.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, Pascal. No, I haven’t [01:30:50] eaten with that, man. How do I get to that? Oh, maybe.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s gonna be that. [01:30:55] Yes.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, to buy a Malaysian thing as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [01:31:00] what.

Payman Langroudi: About outside of dentistry? Like any three people.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay, so [01:31:05] that would be Steve Bartlett, the CEO guy.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Agne Malisauskiene: Much? Uh, [01:31:10] amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I have the idea.

Agne Malisauskiene: Listen to this.

Agne Malisauskiene: So, Steve Bartlett, the second would be. [01:31:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. That would be, uh, I don’t remember the [01:31:20] name, but the, the owner, the of Nvidia.

Payman Langroudi: Nvidia.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, [01:31:25] I saw this.

Agne Malisauskiene: I saw this reel when he was like, somebody was talking to him about, um, [01:31:30] when you work, you work like, do you have what’s the balance? He’s like, what, what [01:31:35] balance? What what what? He said, no, I work. If I don’t work, I think about [01:31:40] work. I was like, man, I’m buying your stocks.

Payman Langroudi: Have you seen that clip where he says, [01:31:45] um, if I knew what I know now at the beginning of Nvidia, [01:31:50] I definitely 100% wouldn’t do it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh really? That is going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Because it was that much [01:31:55] pain getting to. And you think the guy who’s made the world’s largest company is saying [01:32:00] you wouldn’t do it if he knew how much pain he went through? He’s such a wicked guy. I [01:32:05] like him a lot.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: I bought Nvidia stocks and that’s the only in my portfolio that’s going up, not [01:32:10] down. So and the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Third.

Agne Malisauskiene: Person would be you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Me?

Agne Malisauskiene: You know.

Agne Malisauskiene: Why. [01:32:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Because you would ask them questions and I can chill. You know that’s [01:32:20] the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I would just.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sit there and enjoy. You know, I could eat and enjoy and [01:32:25] you would ask them questions.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thank you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thank you for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:32:30] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:32:35] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what [01:32:40] our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out [01:32:45] of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:32:50] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget [01:32:55] our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know. The more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Dipesh Parmar. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] makeover.com for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Cheyenne Patel onto the podcast. I don’t [00:00:55] know if I’m going to call this one of the, you know, future Dentists kind of series [00:01:00] or because shines a dental student, but a bit different to most dental [00:01:05] students. It’s the reason you’re here, my buddy.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if you’re having a slow day at the office and I [00:01:10] got the call, but I appreciate the invite.

Payman Langroudi: Payman fifth year of dental school [00:01:15] in Liverpool.

Shyun Patel: In Liverpool? That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: And recently come off your BDS, a conference which [00:01:20] was unbelievable. Really, really massive, massive thing to have accomplished.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I really appreciate that. [00:01:25] A little bit more grey and probably taking a couple years off my life, but here we are.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:30] where did you grow up?

Shyun Patel: Grew up in a place just outside Birmingham called Hagley. Mhm. [00:01:35] A little town and went to Kezia School in Birmingham. I [00:01:40] think a lot of dental students have actually been to that school, so yeah. Um I [00:01:45] went to that school as well, so yeah, quite a small world, but. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:50] did you know Tony?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah, I was really, I was almost best friends with, um, his younger brother. [00:01:55] Oh really? So he and his younger brother have been to India together and Canada together and knew that. [00:02:00]

Payman Langroudi: So is he like a banker now?

Shyun Patel: Yes. He’s, uh, working at.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:02:05] in.

Shyun Patel: Blackrock, I think. Yeah, something like that. So he’s doing really well.

Payman Langroudi: So were [00:02:10] you. Did you always know you were going to be a dentist, or when did you realise?

Shyun Patel: No. So it’s [00:02:15] a funny story. Growing up, I actually went to my GCSEs. [00:02:20] I chose German, which I turned out to be not not so good at because I was set on being an engineer. Um, [00:02:25] that was down to the fact that I love doing things in my hands. Pretty generic. And I ended up playing three instruments [00:02:30] growing up. So I thought, okay, um, engineering was, was the play for me as [00:02:35] I got older and especially going to, to quite a good school, you think you’re good at maths until you meet [00:02:40] someone that’s really, really, really good at maths. You know, the guys that introverted and can’t hold eye [00:02:45] contact but are exceptional at maths and physics. And I thought, I can’t compete with these guys. So [00:02:50] did my work experience, tried engineering and wasn’t [00:02:55] a conclusion I came to, but always been told, you know. I’ve known myself. I’m good in my hands. But I talk a little bit too [00:03:00] much. Married the two together and thought dentistry is a is a profession for me. [00:03:05] Played with the idea of medicine and just enjoyed the the autonomy aspect of [00:03:10] dentistry and the rest has kind of been been history. And yeah, so I’m loving, loving [00:03:15] the course. It’s gone gone by in a flash.

Payman Langroudi: What about the process of getting into dental school? Because my, my daughters [00:03:20] just said she wants to be a dentist.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And looking into it, it’s much more difficult than we went [00:03:25] in.

Shyun Patel: Year by year. It gets harder and harder. I don’t know if I want to go back if I get in. I was very fortunate that [00:03:30] I got all of my offers, so I got into King’s Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool. And [00:03:35] when people say you got into King’s, didn’t choose King’s. Everyone’s gobsmacked. But um, no, I’m, I’m [00:03:40] a avid Liverpool supporter, which is why I.

Payman Langroudi: Football.

Shyun Patel: Football. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you.

Shyun Patel: Went. That’s why I went to Liverpool. [00:03:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So people talk about King’s. But London [00:03:50] is not a good town for a student.

Shyun Patel: You went to Cardiff right. Yeah. How did you find that campus uni.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [00:03:55]

Shyun Patel: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. I went there by mistake. I mean, when you’re 17, [00:04:00] you think you know it. All right? Yeah. So I want to stay in London. I didn’t get my grades. And then Cardiff [00:04:05] said, yeah, you can come in. I missed it by one.

Shyun Patel: Very beautiful uni I’ve heard. Picturesque.

Payman Langroudi: Just that the Welsh [00:04:10] are amazing people, amazing people, fun, funny, family [00:04:15] orientated. Very very different to what?

Shyun Patel: Well, it’s what you’re saying about the Welsh people I find with the Irish. [00:04:20] But Scousers are almost not English. We say we’re Scouse, not English. Yeah, [00:04:25] yeah. And they’ve got their own community. They’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: An Irish sort of tinge to.

Shyun Patel: Them. Yeah. They’ve got North Wales and [00:04:30] they’ve got Irish and it’s a mix of cultures.

Payman Langroudi: People in Liverpool are amazing.

Shyun Patel: They’re funny, they’re kind, they’re welcoming. [00:04:35] I love Liverpool. Yeah. And um one thing for me I’ve realised that [00:04:40] we’re we’re very fortunate that people have different stress points. So I say my [00:04:45] my brother did geography at UCL and he had stress when he graduated and he was looking for a [00:04:50] job. Whereas for us, we walk into a job, but the stress comes during the ucat [00:04:55] doing the interviews, all those processes. So it was it was definitely difficult that in [00:05:00] a way. Now come to the end of my studies, to some extent, everything I’ve done [00:05:05] from primary school to secondary school has led up to this, this moment. [00:05:10] So from GCSEs and I didn’t actually do A-levels, I did something called International Baccalaureate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, my kids are doing [00:05:15] that.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So. Oh, I’m so sorry that they’re doing that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s they’re not doing that. They, they chose A-levels, [00:05:20] but their school does it.

Shyun Patel: Yes. It’s, um, an interesting, interesting [00:05:25] choice. But it was, it was something I wasn’t very confident of getting in. Um, [00:05:30] I applied and academia was never my strong point. But once I got an interview, [00:05:35] I’m quite comfortable in that environment. So I think it’s just understanding what they want, [00:05:40] how to convey yourself, portray yourself and, uh, fortunately got through the process. But like you said, year [00:05:45] by year, these kids are coming out like superstars. Um, but then there’s, there’s a mix because [00:05:50] you’ve got one side of the process is a lot harder. And the second side, if you look at the [00:05:55] new generation coming through, they say they’re a lot less social. So. So it’s hard [00:06:00] to marry those two up where you’ve got a harder process, but then you’ve got a society [00:06:05] that’s more and more glued to their phones and less social. And, you know, I said at the conference, we’re not in the [00:06:10] teeth business. We’re in. We’re in the people business for sure.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. And I think it’s an interesting question, [00:06:15] right? That is it that the the best students in a level [00:06:20] make the best students in dentistry and do they make [00:06:25] the best dentists compared to my time, then she wasn’t that hard [00:06:30] to get into. It really wasn’t. Yeah. A lot of the year were failed medics. Okay. Back [00:06:35] then. Um, and it just wasn’t. So you used to get pretty practical types of people [00:06:40] into dentistry, some of them good at good at communication and all that. And like you said, communication is [00:06:45] really.

Shyun Patel: The foundation of everything.

Payman Langroudi: The key skill in dentistry.

Shyun Patel: Understanding people is everything. [00:06:50] I think. I always say, um, someone could I try to explain to, to [00:06:55] a, to a patient, you could have someone come up to you that gives you a composite filling. [00:07:00] Let’s say it’s at the back and you can’t tell. And it’s a, a ten out of ten filling and someone else comes and gives you a [00:07:05] 7 or 8, seven out of ten dental filling. And if it’s functional, you’ll [00:07:10] know and I’ll know, but the patient will know. Yeah. But the patient, the guy that gave him [00:07:15] a, the patient, a seven out of ten filling, they go, how’s your holiday? How’s your family? You know, what have [00:07:20] you been up to? It’s more likely to, to be seen and be more popular and be more successful, quote [00:07:25] unquote, as a dentist than that one that’s done a fantastic job, knows all the morphology, but in [00:07:30] and out. And I think that is something that I feel that in my opinion, my generation and being [00:07:35] in dental school is something that’s not stressed upon as much. And I think something that was very integral to your generation [00:07:40] is people and, you know, psychology. And I think that’s I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, if I had to pick [00:07:45] between those two scenarios, you know, like a seven out of ten. Technically ten out of ten communication or [00:07:50] the opposite. I definitely go for the communication guy.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s heartbreaking. [00:07:55] We both know people who are very technically good, of course, and very bad on the [00:08:00] other side. And it’s heartbreaking, man, because the patients don’t know they’re good 100%. [00:08:05] Their staff don’t know they’re good. Yeah. And they might have the best matrixing, the best whatever it is. [00:08:10]

Shyun Patel: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, of course the best is if you had both sides for sure. Um, but [00:08:15] I don’t know, pick a surgeon based on his bedside manner rather [00:08:20] than his technical skill.

Shyun Patel: I don’t want to put disrespect. Maybe that’s the wrong podcast to say this on, [00:08:25] but you could teach a lot of people how to do dentistry, what you could teach a lot of people how to dentistry. [00:08:30] I feel like you could get someone to spend enough time with them. You know, these days.

Payman Langroudi: You think you can teach the communication side. [00:08:35]

Shyun Patel: I’m very you know, I think this goes to quite a deep philosophical [00:08:40] debate that we can go into where I was talking to my friends about how much can you change someone [00:08:45] you know, can, if I was some sort of, you know, mastermind [00:08:50] puppet master and I could take a baby from birth, could I turn them into Payman Langroudi with the right [00:08:55] inputs and outputs? And I kind of think, you know, when you think of standard deviation on a graph [00:09:00] and you’ve got a point here, and I think everyone in terms of balancing nature and nurture is [00:09:05] somewhere on a graph, and there’s only a top barrel and bottom barrel in which someone can [00:09:10] change. So I think majority of people can learn communication, but there’s an extent [00:09:15] to maybe which they naturally. Yeah, comes naturally. And I think [00:09:20] that learning communication is a lot harder than learning a skill because communication is all around [00:09:25] us. It’s people. It’s actually a lot more intricate, I feel. I think conversations now you [00:09:30] feel, I always say they’re like a tango, you know, it’s knowing where to step and when to push and when to pull. And [00:09:35] there’s some guy I used to get wrong a lot where people would say, hey, I [00:09:40] went to this place on holiday and I go, that’s fantastic. I went there and I’d talk about.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Shyun Patel: Yourself. Yeah. But it’s [00:09:45] more me trying to share the experience, but it doesn’t come across right. So you’ve got to actually, with time, learn how to [00:09:50] balance a conversation. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think conversations are not [00:09:55] like any other art, right? There’s a big part of it is curiosity for sure. Um, [00:10:00] but you’re right in that one of the traps people fall into is talk about themselves, you know, like [00:10:05] if any sentence starts with I is always a bit of a weak sentence, you know, most definitely. Um, [00:10:10] at the same time, it’s unavoidable as well.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I guess it’s showing relatability. [00:10:15] Yeah. It’s an interesting concept actually. So there was a book that I [00:10:20] was reading a while ago and it was Dale Carnegie. And he goes and he says [00:10:25] the key to being successful is making friends. And the key to making friends is not to be interesting, [00:10:30] but to be interested.

Payman Langroudi: How to win friends and influence.

Shyun Patel: People, of course. And [00:10:35] I know everything about me, but I don’t know everything about you. So and I think that kind [00:10:40] of feels kind of steps into my ethos that you can learn something from everyone. And [00:10:45] I don’t know whether you find it in the dental industry, but in life you have people that kind of turn their nose up to that [00:10:50] person. I can’t learn something from this, but someone can teach how to tie their shoelaces in a different way. And I [00:10:55] just think having an open mindset that every person you interact with is almost [00:11:00] can add to your toolbox of becoming this more fulfilled, better person. I think you have more enriched experience [00:11:05] of life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know, the way you’re framing it there is [00:11:10] like, in the end, it’s a successful way for yourself to be [00:11:15] interested in people. But I think there’s almost like a respect question [00:11:20] for sure that the next person walking down the street, whoever that is. [00:11:25]

Shyun Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is deserving 100% to be seen by you [00:11:30] 100%. At the same time, I know friends, people who say, look, time on this [00:11:35] planet is limited. I want to spend time with people who can, you know, push me forward. And [00:11:40] they’ve got that sort of weird outlook on things as well.

Shyun Patel: Do you feel [00:11:45] so in your journey to where you are today? I feel like you don’t know what you don’t know. [00:11:50] And I found that the things that have propelled [00:11:55] me, I’ve not even gone to places directly. Let’s say you go to a conference. Fine. It’s oftentimes [00:12:00] at the restaurant or at the bar after that, have the best conversations that propels you. So it’s. Have you found you [00:12:05] find that sometimes just that conversation you thought for the pleasure of the conversation. Yeah. Takes you somewhere you don’t [00:12:10] even realise. Yeah. I think maybe that perspective would be.

Payman Langroudi: And look, this is why I’m doing this Ministry of Sound thing. [00:12:15] Yeah, yeah. Because, um, at events. What do you want from the event? Yeah. The there’s [00:12:20] the education on the screen. Mhm. But you know, you went through Covid, we [00:12:25] can get a lot of that online. Sure. Then there’s the sort of people [00:12:30] you meet. Yeah. There’s the people you meet and the enjoyment on the day. But [00:12:35] really a key thing is, can I call you later on.

Shyun Patel: And [00:12:40] build a relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Build a relationship. If I’ve got an issue, can I call you? Yeah. And you know, right now, me and [00:12:45] you can call each other, of course, because we we’ve been to ten events together. [00:12:50] Whether that event was a party, an enlightened party, or whether it was PDSA [00:12:55] where I.

Shyun Patel: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, you know, we see each other enough times and you get to a point of trust and, [00:13:00] hey, give me your number and all that. But I, whoever I meet, I give my number [00:13:05] to like whoever.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, including at a conference, a first year dental student. [00:13:10] I give my number to everyone.

Shyun Patel: How do you find that? So when I see you, it’s such a pivotal [00:13:15] figure in the industry. Well, I do, you know, and, uh, [00:13:20] as well as are friends now, thankfully to say. And one thing about [00:13:25] I found following PDSA is that I’ve got this, this platform and you’ve got this platform and [00:13:30] you go from maybe not yourself, but I thought I went from being a nobody to, you know, I’ve got dentists saying, [00:13:35] you’re the most popular dental student in Europe now. Everyone knows you had dental school. And I’m like, I’m just I [00:13:40] go home and make Lego sets. You know, I’m not nothing extraordinary about me. How do [00:13:45] you balance, you know, public perception of you? So one question I like to [00:13:50] ask people and I’ll ask you now is, what do you think’s people’s biggest misconception about you? [00:13:55] You know, you interact with so many different people.

Payman Langroudi: When you say [00:14:00] people, you know, like if we’re talking work, um, people [00:14:05] first of all think if you stopped practising dentistry, it must be because you’re a billionaire. [00:14:10]

Shyun Patel: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I stopped practising dentistry 16 [00:14:15] years ago or something. Like several times I stopped, actually. We stopped. I stopped [00:14:20] for five years as soon as we started enlightened. And in that period, I [00:14:25] was losing hundreds of thousands of pounds. Like hundreds of thousands. Yeah. The first 5 [00:14:30] or 6 years we, I think we lost a good half a million back then, which was a lot of money back [00:14:35] then, you know. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Well even now, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But back there was a lot of money and I used [00:14:40] to have friends and people meet me and say, oh, you don’t practice anymore. And I say, no. And they think you’ve [00:14:45] made it so successful.

Shyun Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Not to practice. Yeah. That’s one misconception. [00:14:50] Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Was that stopping practice from shifting focus or did you. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: In the first five years there was no choice. I mean, there was so much going on. I just I just had to I had [00:15:00] partners, so they continued to practice and they were basically funding me. Yeah. In that period. Um, [00:15:05] but then I went back and I started doing one day a week, two days a week, that [00:15:10] sort of thing. And then I had a bad day one day and I said, forget it, you know? Yeah. I spoke to Prav. Yes. [00:15:15] My co-host and I said he used to be a doctor. Okay. [00:15:20] He studied in Oxford, and he became, like, top of his class and [00:15:25] then did research and then never practised as a doctor. Okay. Because [00:15:30] his brother Kailash has, um. Dental.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. He’s down around the corner [00:15:35] from me in Manchester, isn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And Caitlin Prav is a very clever guy. So Kayla said to him, look, [00:15:40] you’re a clever guy. Just find out about marketing. And so he read up a bit, found out about Google, [00:15:45] all that. And his practice went berserk. And and then perhaps I thought, I’m going to start doing this [00:15:50] instead of being a doctor. Yeah. And he’s got this very interesting story where he talks to his tutor in Oxford [00:15:55] and said to him, look, I’m thinking of going into marketing instead of [00:16:00] becoming a doctor. And the guy told him, um, definitely do it. [00:16:05] Really? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, he sort of said to [00:16:10] him, look, if you if you if you want my advice, go. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: I think that about [00:16:15] life. You know, honestly, sometimes you don’t have it all figured out. And one thing that ethos I take is that I remember [00:16:20] Mark Zuckerberg said if he knew everything about Facebook before he made Facebook, then Facebook wouldn’t exist. And somebody’s [00:16:25] got to jump and figure it out on the way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, Jensen from Nvidia says the same thing.

Shyun Patel: Did he [00:16:30] say same thing? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is crazy, right? Because you think that’s the world’s most successful company. Sure. And [00:16:35] he said, if you knew the pain, he would never. And there’s massive pain.

Shyun Patel: Oh, of course. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got, you know, you’ve you’ve just done PDSA, right. And you can see there’s a thousand [00:16:45] moving parts.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And um you don’t, the profit isn’t even [00:16:50] a big part.

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Of what you’re doing.

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying to you about the first five years of enlightenment. [00:16:55] I was putting out fires left, right and centre and losing money at the same [00:17:00] time.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s painful.

Shyun Patel: It is painful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s painful. Especially as a dentist. [00:17:05] Right? Because all your friends are now buying practice.

Shyun Patel: And they’ve got a nice shiny.

Payman Langroudi: Shiny [00:17:10] car. It’s hard and it’s not like I’m I was doing it, sticking at it. [00:17:15] I had no choice. Yeah. All our houses were on the line. Yeah. It’s hard. Um, [00:17:20] but the other thing that people get wrong, especially younger dentists. Yeah. They think [00:17:25] there’s this sort of like, master plan kind of thing and it’s not. No, [00:17:30] it’s exactly. My head feels exactly the same as when I was your age.

Shyun Patel: Do you know [00:17:35] what someone asked me right after the conference? They go, how do you feel? And I feel exactly the [00:17:40] same. And it’s almost the the weird thing. And I don’t know if you’ve ever felt this. It’s almost a selfish thing [00:17:45] to say. It’s almost a selfish thing to say. Um, but [00:17:50] I think there’s a time where you feel a bit unprepared and you’re not sure of something. And like you said, we’ve both jumped in [00:17:55] different retrospects and over a prolonged period of time, there’s a point where you can kind of sit and [00:18:00] it’s not like in front of anyone. You’re by yourself and you look in the mirror and you go, you know what? I was, [00:18:05] I was right. It’s that that weird feeling of like, I was right to stick with this thing that I wasn’t sure. And [00:18:10] I, I’m a very big fan of like mental frameworks to get me through times [00:18:15] because I think motivation dies and dedication at times of good days and bad days. But [00:18:20] if you kind of set your brain in a certain way. I remember reading, uh, James Clear [00:18:25] Atomic Habits and he mentioned something about an ice cube. You familiar with this, this concept to [00:18:30] me so.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve read it.

Shyun Patel: So remember he he gets an ice cube. And, um, let’s [00:18:35] say an ice cube is at minus ten degrees and you heat it up and it gets to minus eight, minus seven, minus six. There’s [00:18:40] no change. And you’re keeping up four, three, two, no change. And then hit zero. And all of a sudden starts melting. [00:18:45] Now does that mean that from heating from -10 to -5 that that wasn’t beneficial. [00:18:50] And sometimes I feel like in a society where there’s social media and even [00:18:55] go to the gym, there’s some sort of fast returns. You know, they say the two best time scales [00:19:00] to, to work on are within the hour and ten years, you know, which is quite juxtaposed. [00:19:05] But what am I gonna do in the next hour? And it comes back [00:19:10] to, um, another part. Have you heard of this? Um, I’ll try and summarise [00:19:15] it. The parable of the there’s all these different Chinese farmer. Have you heard this one before? It’s not, not [00:19:20] my coin. So I’m not going to take credit for it. But they talk about this, this farmer in China and [00:19:25] he’s running this farm and um, He’s got one horse [00:19:30] on the farm and his child is there and he’s feeding the horse. And one day the horse [00:19:35] runs away and the child runs to the Chinese farmer and he goes, dad, the horse ran away. This is really bad. [00:19:40] And he goes, well, maybe. And so the sons confused and [00:19:45] wakes up the next day and he’s doing the crops himself now.

Shyun Patel: And the horse comes back over the hill bringing ten [00:19:50] wild horses. And the son runs to the father and goes, this is amazing. Like there’s these, all these new horses. We [00:19:55] can go into the horse business and the Chinese farmer goes, well, well, maybe. Okay. So then [00:20:00] the sons then goes the next day and he’s training the horses, the wild horses, and one of them bucks and kicks him and he breaks his arm. And [00:20:05] all the people of the village go to the farm and go, this is awful news. Your sons broke his arm. And he goes, well, maybe [00:20:10] in the next day the conscription officer comes and goes, we’re going to war. And you take your son and he goes, well, my son’s arm [00:20:15] is broken. He can’t go to war. And so he doesn’t go to war. And then everyone goes, it’s amazing. He goes, well, maybe. And the point of the story is that [00:20:20] you never really know if something’s good or bad for you in the moment and something maybe, [00:20:25] you know, maybe you shouldn’t say this in case my parents are watching this, but cocaine on a two hour span [00:20:30] is not actually necessarily bad for you. But then if you take that to maybe three, four, five hours, ten hours [00:20:35] a week, these things that are things are only good and bad on a, on a certain time frame. And I feel like with, I [00:20:40] think.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right, insomuch as a lot of us fall into the trap of thinking, is this thing good or [00:20:45] is it bad? And rather than what you’re saying, it’s good and bad. [00:20:50] Sure. Depending on what happens. And definitely, I think people’s biggest strength [00:20:55] is their biggest weakness. Mhm. Whichever wherever the strength is, you know, if you say, [00:21:00] oh, his strength is attention to detail, great.

Shyun Patel: But then they should see how [00:21:05] quickly you’re getting stuff. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like they become like massive over perfectionists. [00:21:10] Or you could say he’s the kindest person I’ve met. Great. Yeah. But [00:21:15] then he can’t fire anyone.

Shyun Patel: They say it’s hubris in Greek. Greek mythology, where the character’s [00:21:20] fatal flaw is his own strength. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And often, [00:21:25] you know, what you’re saying is you start becoming known. It’s weird because people [00:21:30] have sort of expectation and all that. And the hubris that you can get from [00:21:35] that can really ruin your life. Sure. Because you the thing [00:21:40] that makes for me the biggest sense is that if someone likes this podcast, yeah, [00:21:45] they like this podcast because I’m just being me. Sure. Yeah. Now, if 100,000 [00:21:50] people like this podcast, it’s being me. That was the point [00:21:55] of it. If I’m now change through hubris, become this other person [00:22:00] that ain’t what they were into. They were into me.

Shyun Patel: It’s not. They don’t benefit [00:22:05] from it. But also you go home thinking they like a version of me that doesn’t really exist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:10] you know, you’ve heard this thing that they say, don’t over dwell on your failures, but [00:22:15] don’t over celebrate on your successes because both of them are sort of temporary [00:22:20] things.

Shyun Patel: They say when you’re, when you’re at the top, when you’re successful, when you do something well, [00:22:25] they go, you’re not actually that good. And when you’re when you feel like you’re the worst in the world, you’re not actually that bad. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very true. It’s very.

Shyun Patel: True. And that’s why I think it’s important to have a why. Anything you do, [00:22:35] you need to have some sort of why for us.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me this though, dude. Like [00:22:40] you’re obviously obsessed with self-improvement. Sure. Um, were [00:22:45] you that five year old? Like when when what was the inflection point when you [00:22:50] became this person?

Shyun Patel: Okay, let’s let’s go back. So, [00:22:55] uh, I’m very privileged. I had a very good upbringing. Um, but my mum and dad both [00:23:00] came from a lot of poverty and built themselves up to do, to do quite well.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:23:05] did they.

Shyun Patel: Do? So my my dad’s actually a dentist. Oh, really? And my mum did business and then worked [00:23:10] my dad and they have a practice now and they’re slowly thinking about winding down now. [00:23:15] Both my parents had hardship, but in very different ways. So my, [00:23:20] my mum’s parents owned a corner shop. Typical Patel and, um, but [00:23:25] her parents worked 364 days a year, and so often she [00:23:30] would be left at home with no food, and she’d have to eat chocolate from the cupboard and left very [00:23:35] independently. And hopefully my mum doesn’t mind me saying this, but there was one point where I think my [00:23:40] mum was asked, uh, she graduated and it was hard for, for girls back in that [00:23:45] age. And um, my nan didn’t really understand graduating. She goes, do I have to come to graduation? She was very [00:23:50] neglected. Whereas my dad had very, very, very strict parents, typical [00:23:55] Indian parents were.

Payman Langroudi: Were they both here as kids?

Shyun Patel: They were both here as kids. Yeah. Um, [00:24:00] in the West Midlands. And my, my dad wanted to go play and he couldn’t go play [00:24:05] because he had to do work. Anyway, fast forward. So that kind of amalgamation of the two polars [00:24:10] of having poverty, but in a very strict way where [00:24:15] you’re thankful in the long term, but it’s very difficult and free, they say, is it freedom or loneliness? You know, that’s [00:24:20] another thing people. And it kind of created me where I felt growing up there wasn’t. [00:24:25] My parents were very not like typical. There wasn’t a lot of pressure on me, but [00:24:30] they would talk about other kids in such a positive way that it kind of created insecurity in me. So I’ll give you an example. [00:24:35] In primary school, there may be a kid that was really clean around the house, and then [00:24:40] I’d be compared to this child and I’d be like, I’ve got to be really clean. Then a completely different kid who’s really good at sport, really [00:24:45] good at sport. And I know it’s really clever. Then I’d be really. So I’m competing against these five kids, you know, [00:24:50] I’m just this one trying to fight all these, these these battles off. And then what happened is [00:24:55] my parents never really. And they do now. But I think it just comes with like, the Asian mentality never gave me [00:25:00] that validation. So that kind of built on insecurity in me. So then growing [00:25:05] up, um. I paused that thought and come [00:25:10] back to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: About three years ago, I read something that really gave me kind of fulfilment [00:25:15] and kind of gave me some reassurance was they did a survey called the Great Survey, [00:25:20] where they interviewed people that regard as great. Could be Cristiano Ronaldo, Roger Federer, [00:25:25] scientists, philanthropists, just people that were regarded great in their in their career. Yeah. And they [00:25:30] asked them, what is it that makes you great? Yeah. And like an overwhelming like 70, 80% of people [00:25:35] said, I don’t strive to be great, but I’m running away from a sense of inadequacy. And I resonate [00:25:40] with that a little bit, that that feeling of not feeling good enough drove me to want to do [00:25:45] things. When I have that little voice that goes, shine, you’re not smart. I will need to create fundamental evidence, [00:25:50] so I’ll have to. I got five offers for a hard course, so I can’t be that that stupid or you’re not [00:25:55] creative, so but but shine. You play three instruments and I’m in a band, so I can’t be that not creative [00:26:00] or, you know, you’re not that charitable then I’ve worked with this, so I’ll have to create fundamental evidence for [00:26:05] myself to battle this insecurity.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:26:10] then you’re saying your parents set up this insecurity by mistake?

Shyun Patel: I think so. It’s weird. [00:26:15] Right? So it’s weird because everyone’s very quick to [00:26:20] thank their parents and I’m very grateful. My parents had a very privileged upbringing, but also everyone [00:26:25] has their upbringing is what makes you who you are in some sense, your environment. And everyone asks, [00:26:30] I wish my parents did this, this and this, but then I wouldn’t be who I was if it wasn’t for those [00:26:35] sets of events. Yeah. Um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got any kids, have you?

Shyun Patel: No. Not [00:26:40] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Shyun Patel: No time soon. How do you find it? From being.

Payman Langroudi: The thing? The thing with kids. And it’s very [00:26:45] similar with employees as well. Yeah. It’s that. Let’s look at employees for for a second. [00:26:50] Okay. I’ve got a sales team. Yeah. The sales team are incentivised on [00:26:55] sales. Mhm. Yeah. You think that sounds like a great idea, right? Yeah. They need to get [00:27:00] sales and they’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. But what ends up happening there is you get an unintended [00:27:05] consequence of everything you put in place with [00:27:10] employees. Yeah. So on that on that simple example of if if I incentivise my team [00:27:15] on sales. What ends up happening is they go for the big sales because [00:27:20] that increases their numbers. Yeah, yeah. That’s good. Right. We [00:27:25] want big sales. But most people come to enlighten, you know looking [00:27:30] to try it once. Yeah, yeah. That’s that guy who’s just about to spend £18,000 [00:27:35] on a elite partner status with enlightened was [00:27:40] one day that guy who came in trying.

Shyun Patel: The foundation of your whole.

Payman Langroudi: Trying it once. Yeah, right. [00:27:45] And then he went up the escalator. Then they said, oh, if you buy six, you don’t have to pay shipping. Oh, okay. [00:27:50] You buy 12. Now we’re looking for one partner in each town who’s our elite partner. But he went [00:27:55] through that. Mhm. Now, if you incentivise only on sales that side of the funnel [00:28:00] where people are coming in gets ignored because this guy’s buying 1 or 3 [00:28:05] or something. Yeah, they’re not very focussed on him. Yeah. So. Oh I know, [00:28:10] I know what’s the answer to that. Incentivise new customers While you’re at it. [00:28:15] All right. Now we incentivise new customers.

Shyun Patel: A shift.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a shift there. There’s another unintended [00:28:20] consequence that comes out of that incentivise growth. Yeah. It puts [00:28:25] massive stress on the team, massive stress because it then incentivise annually [00:28:30] or by month or by quarter. Yeah, you do it by quarter. You get this thing called [00:28:35] quarter switching. Yeah. Where they take the foot off the pedal for the first quarter. Or [00:28:40] let’s say they go berserk selling like hell in the first quarter, the second quarter. No one needs anything because they’ve [00:28:45] sold so hard. They take their foot off the pedal there. Then the following quarter, they push again, and [00:28:50] then in the following year, switch it around because that second quarter was very slow. So now they can [00:28:55] build on it, you know, and it’s not their fault. You set up the system.

Shyun Patel: And there’s flaws. Like [00:29:00] I think it’s what we said about the hubris of a business. Yeah, we could almost shift it to that.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then [00:29:05] parenting same story, man.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Like your parents, when they were pointing out that kid [00:29:10] who’s good at football. Yeah. Or good at studying or good at that. They were trying to get you to be good at [00:29:15] those things, for sure. But the unintended consequence of that, this feeling of not being enough.

Shyun Patel: Yes. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well done. Yeah. You take that feeling. Some people crush under that feeling. Yeah. [00:29:25] You take that feeling and use it as fuel. Yeah. But my question is, [00:29:30] when did you become so tactical? Because it’s very early on. Yeah, I did, I, when I, [00:29:35] yeah, I went to PhD. Yeah. And I started reading self-development books. Yeah. [00:29:40] But you’re really early on this journey. Like when, when was it, how was it? So was it, was [00:29:45] it one book in particular? Was it one?

Shyun Patel: Was it one book? It was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was success itself. [00:29:50]

Shyun Patel: And unintended conversations. So what I mean by that. Fast forward to secondary [00:29:55] school. Yeah. Because I wanted to then be good at a lot of things. I wanted [00:30:00] to be good at a lot of different things. And they say the course of a, a person that’s a jack of all trades, jack [00:30:05] of all trades, never gets anywhere. Jack of all trades. Yeah. I liked music and I liked science [00:30:10] and I liked Like sport, and I liked all these different things. So I’ll talk to the the guys that were good at gym. [00:30:15] I talked to the guys that were, you know, starting businesses and the guys that were good. And I’d pick up different [00:30:20] things. And over time from just doing this out of pure interest of like wanting to better myself, I thought, do [00:30:25] conversations. Sometimes a new person would come into a group and no one would know what to say to them. But I [00:30:30] had some little link to them from another conversation and it started becoming beneficial to me. [00:30:35] So I thought, I enjoy talking to people, I enjoy learning about people, but actually the knowledge I gain [00:30:40] from even this conversation will actually benefit me in some way.

Shyun Patel: And then I thought, how can I [00:30:45] like with anything, get the reps in master skill? And we talk about reflection [00:30:50] a lot in dentistry. I think it was after every conversation, [00:30:55] it almost a subconscious way and it is a double edged sword. You do tend to [00:31:00] analyse the situation and think, could I have said this more? Could I ask more? How could I have made. I think it [00:31:05] comes down to how could I have made this experience better for the other person? And that allows me to reflect on myself. [00:31:10] And then I thought, well, there must be Will Smith [00:31:15] said. The two the two most important things in life are running and reading, running because you fight the little voice in your head [00:31:20] and reading because you’ll never face a problem in life that someone else in history hasn’t come [00:31:25] across, or in a book about it. So I started reading and sharpening the tools, and now I [00:31:30] feel like relatively comfortable talking to people or anyone.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a is there a [00:31:35] book that really resonated for you? More than the others?

Shyun Patel: I’d [00:31:40] probably say Atomic Habits was pretty good for me. Yeah, I’d say one of [00:31:45] the first ones is pretty stable for a lot of people, but just helped me streamline [00:31:50] my thoughts because sometimes I can go on tangents but [00:31:55] helps me keep things quite narrow.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s interesting is, you know, like whatever [00:32:00] frame of mind you were in at that moment might have made that the case. You [00:32:05] know, like you could read it again now and get different things out of it. Yeah, yeah. Maybe the moment [00:32:10] that you read it was the moment.

Shyun Patel: Sure. I think that about people in general. I [00:32:15] said to, um, my my, uh, close friend of mine went [00:32:20] for the Dental society presidency. They didn’t get it. I didn’t get it when I went for it. We can talk about that later. [00:32:25] And I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Get.

Shyun Patel: It. No, I go into that story actually. So I [00:32:30] wanted to make an impact on people. And, you [00:32:35] know, we were talking about events just before the podcast started. And sometimes you see these guys at events, you won’t name names [00:32:40] that they’re in a nice suit and tie. They’re on stage, look super polished. And I thought, I’m not, I’m not [00:32:45] that person. I’d never be that person. And, uh, you can, of course, a bit of disparities in [00:32:50] like, there are those kinds of people and there are these kinds of people. And I always felt I’m these kinds of people. I’m never going to be like that and [00:32:55] I’m going to go for dental society president. I put Liverpool on the map [00:33:00] and I’ve got these contacts, and I thought I could do good for the society, worked the whole year, did a bunch of campaigning [00:33:05] and stuff, and I went for it and I didn’t get it.

Payman Langroudi: It crushed.

Shyun Patel: You. Yeah. [00:33:10] You. Yeah. Crushed me. I didn’t leave my room for two days, actually. Uh, yeah. [00:33:15] Just didn’t take it well.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, dude. Yeah. Because it was some guy sitting in the back of the room who [00:33:20] didn’t even get to the point of asking to be president. Sure. [00:33:25] Like me, by the way. Yeah, yeah, I didn’t get involved one little iota in dental school. Yeah. And [00:33:30] you. And by the way, I’ve got a friend. His dad, unfortunately, took his own life. [00:33:35] Why? Because he didn’t win the Nobel Prize.

Shyun Patel: No way.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:33:40] was his goal. And, like, by the way, it’s not like as as as as [00:33:45] obvious as that.

Shyun Patel: Maybe, but. Sure, but.

Payman Langroudi: Trying.

Shyun Patel: To.

Payman Langroudi: Win the Nobel Prize broke [00:33:50] him mentally. And then he didn’t win it, so he had nothing left, whatever [00:33:55] it was, of course, whatever combination of things it was, his mother told him, you’ll never amount to anything, [00:34:00] for all I know. Yeah, yeah, but but it’s so interesting, isn’t it? Like for him, it was a [00:34:05] Nobel Prize for you. I didn’t even think anyone would ever want me as president of anything, so [00:34:10] I never even put my hand up. Yeah. So, like, how far you were ahead of me, but. And yet crushed. [00:34:15]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Crushed. And it came to me very recently that it’s not, you know, people talk about like, you know, [00:34:20] the financial aspect of dentistry or these achievements and goals and accolades. Now it’s just my younger brother who told [00:34:25] me this, um, call it an arbitrary hypothetical situation, having [00:34:30] £1 million in the bank. Sure. Fine. And he said to me, it’s not about having $1 [00:34:35] million. It’s about who you have to become to be worth $1 million.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice.

Shyun Patel: Nose. I like that, and [00:34:40] I thought, you know what? I don’t I don’t see, uh, Payman and think, oh, [00:34:45] he’s got all this stuff. I think, what must that guy have gone through? Who must he have [00:34:50] had to become to be a person that can do all these things mentally? And so for me, that’s. [00:34:55]

Payman Langroudi: The really interesting thing is if I push a button, £1 million drops your account, not a single thing changes. [00:35:00]

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: To the in the moment, like nothing changes. Yeah, yeah. [00:35:05] Nothing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not any different at all.

Shyun Patel: It’s not the destination. Right. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: The company. [00:35:10] That’s what a brilliant speech that was. Um, but [00:35:15] you know, like, by the way, let’s call it £1 billion. Yeah. Like proper life changing. [00:35:20] Yeah. Amounts of money still right now we’re still.

Shyun Patel: We’re.

Payman Langroudi: Still, we’re sitting here talking. Yeah. [00:35:25] You’re still worried about your grandmother’s illness? Yeah. Now. [00:35:30] Okay. What can you do with that? Money can buy things, which is like, really? There’s [00:35:35] nothing. No, there is not a thing I’ve ever bought that’s made me happy. Fulfilled longer [00:35:40] than. Longer than about a week.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. Yeah, I don’t know, maybe someone [00:35:45] else has, like, had this life ambition to get a Rolex or whatever, and that was, you [00:35:50] know, important to them. Now they got it. But the thing itself, there wasn’t a goddamn thing.

Shyun Patel: It’s [00:35:55] who you become in the, in the, in the you, you can.

Payman Langroudi: Buy experiences. Yeah. That’s good. [00:36:00] That’s good. Yeah. I’ll go off to Burning Man and then travel [00:36:05] the world and go on every private jet or boat or whatever [00:36:10] turns you on, you know, like the opposite of that. Yeah. You know, sit on a top [00:36:15] of a train in Pakistan, if you will.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Experiences are cool. Experiences are [00:36:20] cool, of course. But in the end, as like a dentist guy. Yeah. What are [00:36:25] you gonna do? You got, like, I don’t know, four weeks off.

Shyun Patel: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: You could go on some five star hotels. [00:36:30]

Shyun Patel: It just ends. And you’ve got to have purpose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Shyun Patel: Purpose. Do you do you feel like you [00:36:35] ask yourself those those some people shy away from it. They think I don’t need to think about. I’m just going to take [00:36:40] day by day. But do you ever think about your purpose and what drives you and keeps you going? [00:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: It happens to you is what I found. So some people may maybe, maybe you can sit on an [00:36:50] Anthony Robbins seminar and write it down and then go and make it happen. But [00:36:55] it happens to you, this podcast itself, this podcast. Yeah, it started off as a business [00:37:00] decision. We need to improve our, you know, reach on social media. [00:37:05] Um, so how should we do that? How much can we talk about toothpaste and teeth whitening? [00:37:10] Let’s talk about dentistry and people. Yeah, it started off that way. Yeah. But [00:37:15] now it’s a whole other thing. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s closer to a hobby than [00:37:20] to a business decision.

Shyun Patel: Passion project.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And what is a hobby? You know, something you [00:37:25] enjoy for sure. Something you try and get better at. You know, something where there’s a community of [00:37:30] you or whatever. Yeah, it’s much closer to that 100%. And then if I have to look back on it [00:37:35] and say, oh, what are you most proud of? What are you most proud of? That tube of toothpaste, [00:37:40] by the way? I really am. You know, like, of course, it took a long time to get that right. Or [00:37:45] these conversations, I say these conversations. Yeah. Because these are real, [00:37:50] right? And, uh, I bang on about this. Three of my guests are no longer with us. Mhm. [00:37:55] Yeah. And one day, you’re no longer going to be with us, of course. And this conversation is still [00:38:00] going to be there.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: When you say.

Shyun Patel: Purpose, they say, um, I, I, it’s [00:38:05] actually quite sad. I said at my grandfather’s funeral, I said, um, [00:38:10] nobody lasts forever, but you can create something that will. And whether that be a message, [00:38:15] something, something in someone. And so I think we should strive to [00:38:20] for positivity, strive to leave a positive impact on people because that’s, that’s really what [00:38:25] matters.

Payman Langroudi: I find interesting though. Yeah, there are some people who aren’t paying [00:38:30] attention to what’s going on. Yeah, they’re too busy in their [00:38:35] own world. Then there are other people who are paying attention, um, [00:38:40] but aren’t doing anything about it. So [00:38:45] I’m like that in our politics. I’m paying a lot of attention in politics. Yeah, [00:38:50] I, but I didn’t even vote for. I voted once in my life.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:38:55] Um, but then there are some people who know what’s going on and want [00:39:00] to act on it, want to do things. Yeah. And you look at your year [00:39:05] in Liverpool, you see all three of those types, most definitely.

Shyun Patel: Well in dentistry and in [00:39:10] my year in life. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I’m interested in the transition. Yeah. Or [00:39:15] do you believe that it is some people are just like that from the beginning because there [00:39:20] is I’ve been all three of those people.

Shyun Patel: I think I have as well for sure. I think [00:39:25] even so, perspective that you may or may not get is, um, you [00:39:30] speak to young people, young events, and it’s easy for someone like you or, you know, I [00:39:35] always say to my good friend Joe Lovett, he always says to me, oh, your generation is killing it. I wasn’t like this. I was doing this. But [00:39:40] even those young people that you meet that are doing said things have gone through that [00:39:45] journey. Well, some of them, maybe not all of them, but they have gone through that journey. Um. I [00:39:50] think it comes from an experience, a conversation [00:39:55] where you think about why am I doing what I’m doing? And [00:40:00] maybe the thought that no one’s. Maybe it’s the thought for me that no one’s gonna save you. I think [00:40:05] my mum said to me once, it’s self-reliance. Yeah. No one’s gonna, you know, bad things [00:40:10] happen to everybody. And at the end of the day, if something happens. [00:40:15] Yeah, you’ve got your family and friends, but you’ve really got, you’ve really got yourself to pull [00:40:20] yourself out of holes. And whether it be in business, whether it be in life, whether it be friends, uh, it’s [00:40:25] equipping yourself that, you know, maybe [00:40:30] not on every case, but I found that certain experiences in my life have got certain [00:40:35] things have got easier as I’ve got older and I’ve realised that the they’ve not got easier [00:40:40] because the dragon is any smaller.

Shyun Patel: I’ve just got stronger. When [00:40:45] you slay that dragon because you’ve got used to failure, you’ve got used to rejection. So [00:40:50] I think it’s different for different people. Um, for me, I can’t think. Pinpoint it to one moment. [00:40:55] Well, actually no, no. Okay. Now I think about it a little bit [00:41:00] more. There was a little bit of a pivotal thing that happened in my life that kind of shaped me. [00:41:05] I’d say probably, maybe I haven’t consciously thought about it until this moment, which is why I didn’t [00:41:10] go in with it. So, you know, I’d be a little bit vulnerable [00:41:15] here, but when I was, um, and a lot of my friends know about this, but when I was 19, [00:41:20] I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. And. I [00:41:25] self self-identity is a big thing. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re [00:41:30] a young guy, you’re a dentist, your student sports, whatever you want to identify as and identifying [00:41:35] as an ill person, but not an ill person that you can’t get rid of your illness is quite [00:41:40] a was quite a weird experience for me.

Payman Langroudi: So people mourn it. [00:41:45] People mourn.

Shyun Patel: People mourn it. Right. And I didn’t want to identify something where [00:41:50] you almost become the thing you think about. So yeah, I say to people, um, [00:41:55] after how many times of playing the piano to become a pianist, right? [00:42:00] If you wake up one day, go, I’m a pianist or you go, I’m a pianist. What would a pianist do today? They play piano. Then you, [00:42:05] you know, kind of self-fulfilling become the thing that you want to be. So I [00:42:10] had this illness and, you know, so without going into too much detail, I have [00:42:15] to go to hospital every six weeks for an infusion for the rest of my life. Right? [00:42:20] Which is, you know, one day you wake up and the next day and I think they say [00:42:25] you have 100 problems, you have a health problem, then you have one problem. Yeah. And I [00:42:30] think for me, it was like, okay, this is something that affects me. You know, I get extreme fatigue sometimes [00:42:35] and, you know, all these other issues [00:42:40] and struggles that come with it. But I never really wanted to let that stop me. [00:42:45] And it kind of made me put life into perspective.

Shyun Patel: And I think you asked me about where did this kind [00:42:50] of drive? You know, when you say the word drive in the word, it’s like you’re accelerating. You know, you’re going [00:42:55] somewhere. Yeah. Through the reflection of my own health. And, you know, there’s periods of time where I [00:43:00] think the end of my second, my biggest achievement, despite everything. And we can talk about more things in PDSA. The biggest achievement [00:43:05] of my life was in second year. It was my second year dental exams [00:43:10] and I was extremely ill in that period. Did my second [00:43:15] year exams and I finished my exam at maybe 3:00 [00:43:20] in the afternoon. I’d get home and I’d be so tired [00:43:25] that sometimes I’d get home in my jacket, lie on my bed kind of sideways, and I’d be stuck there [00:43:30] till the next morning because I’d be so I couldn’t even move. Right. And after my last exam, my [00:43:35] mum came and picked me up. I was really ill. Took me to A&E and I was in hospital for two and a half weeks. [00:43:40]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shyun Patel: But I still passed all my exams. I made it my mission to turn up for exams on the same day.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:43:45] this same problem.

Shyun Patel: The same, the same, the same, the same thing. Right. And, um, it’s, [00:43:50] uh. Yeah, it’s more just for me that, um. [00:43:55]

Payman Langroudi: So you feel like when that, when you got that [00:44:00] diagnosis, you feel like now I’m gonna try and make things count.

Shyun Patel: It’s more like my [00:44:05] parents. Your parents, everyone’s parents are only getting older. My grandparents are getting [00:44:10] older. Yeah. Everyone says life’s short. Yeah. Everyone goes, you know, um, it will [00:44:15] come, right? It will come to you. You get, you know, and some things do come to you. But people look at their lives. [00:44:20] You just woke up and got into dental school or you have to work for you have to kind of make a conscious. You woke up and made a podcast and you made this toothpaste. [00:44:25] No, you you sat and you thought and you made it happen. So with anything in your life, you know, you [00:44:30] could wake up, I could wake up at 30 or 40 and, um, you know, but I, [00:44:35] my, my life now, I think is, is fine. Like I’m not like a ill in that sense, but [00:44:40] it put in perspective the value of life. And I remember every [00:44:45] day I’d go to the sit outside for an hour and look at the car park and go, you know, this weird car park is now [00:44:50] my freedom. I never looked the car parks the same way. And so I thought, you know, I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow [00:44:55] or in three years time. I’m gonna act now. I’m gonna do it now. I’m not just gonna get in good [00:45:00] shape. I’m not going to go and live this fulfilling life. I’ve got to make it happen. So I just that day, I thought, yeah, I’m [00:45:05] gonna go and make it happen and then made it happen.

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Shyun Patel: That. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. One of the [00:45:10] important things is dealing with life’s issues is gratitude. [00:45:15] Gratitude for what you do have. Sure. The other thing is with with, with things like [00:45:20] illness, often it’s a thing where if you meet other people or [00:45:25] hear of other people who’ve who’ve got it or had it or lived with it, [00:45:30] somehow it’s something about that makes it like, okay, it’s [00:45:35] not just me, you know.

Shyun Patel: This is the reason I, I can tell you now, I’ve told [00:45:40] about six people and I’m putting on a podcast. And I, funnily enough, So [00:45:45] I called my mum before I was walking in. I said, I’m going, I’m going on this podcast. And I said, should I, should I mention this? [00:45:50] Is this something, you know? And she goes, how do you feel about it? And I go, uh, I [00:45:55] was embarrassed about it or scared about it, or you shy away from these things and you realise, you know what, like I said, [00:46:00] in the kitchen, I feel like I’m at a point now where I’ve done Bdsm, I’ve [00:46:05] got this platform and I feel somewhat of a responsibility that through [00:46:10] the grace of my life and whatever there is in the universe, I have this [00:46:15] ability to I’ve built confidence over time, you know, from whatever means that’s come from. [00:46:20] And someone else may be suffering with the same thing, someone listening, a dentist, a student somewhere. [00:46:25] I think, well, if this average kid that’s ill can do this, then maybe [00:46:30] I can do do it too. And I feel.

Payman Langroudi: There’s huge value in that, dude. Huge [00:46:35] value. I had someone we ask a question. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve listened to this pod before, but [00:46:40] we ask a question about mistakes. Okay. And this. This dentist had made a mistake [00:46:45] that she was ashamed of.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And at the beginning told [00:46:50] me, look, I don’t want to discuss it. Mhm. And then I said, well, what is it? And then [00:46:55] it was such an important thing. Yeah. Why do [00:47:00] I ask about mistakes? Not to take my guests through pain? Right. No. It’s so that we all learn [00:47:05] from our mistakes.

Shyun Patel: For.

Payman Langroudi: Sure. Yeah. It was such an important thing. And I said. I said, look, of course [00:47:10] it’s up to you. It’s your podcast. You can take it out if you want. Yeah. But [00:47:15] it’s the most valuable thing that happened in this podcast. It was the most valuable thing [00:47:20] that was said in, in that whole podcast. And maybe in the last 30 podcasts [00:47:25] that I’ve done. So that was the most valuable thing. So yeah, you owe it to yourself. [00:47:30] The rest of us.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The rest of us to talk about it. How have it embarrassed you are about [00:47:35] that mistake. Yeah. Mhm. Um. And we’ll see. We’ll see. [00:47:40] Well, of course, of course. It’s not my decision, right? It’s that person’s decision. Yeah. Um, [00:47:45] but we’ll we’ll see how that ends up in the same way. Of course, it’s your [00:47:50] right to keep any or all of this, any and all of this confidential for sure. But [00:47:55] there’s people listening who’s going through this and need.

Shyun Patel: I think so I think there’s a point where you look at [00:48:00] yourself and you think, why was I put on this planet? You know, I am a bit of a [00:48:05] sucker. I’m a bit of a hopeless romantic. I, I, I, I don’t know if that’s the [00:48:10] right word to put it. I, I you’re a girlfriend. I don’t actually, I was, I, um, I’m [00:48:15] actually building a dating app.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You said you said, okay, let’s talk about that. Yeah. How did [00:48:20] that come about?

Shyun Patel: Okay. So I don’t [00:48:25] like being put in a box, you know? So I like living my life in paradoxes. So I [00:48:30] am a dental student that’s, you know, run a half [00:48:35] marathon that, you know, is in a band that is called the extractor. Shout out [00:48:40] to my band The Extractors. And I like doing things where you go on stage and then, you [00:48:45] know, we’ve been at the bar plenty of times. So this juxtaposed of life and I thought, okay, you know why? Why? Okay. [00:48:50] Good question. I’m not I’m [00:48:55] not majorly religious, but I believe in God or there’s something out there, right? And so I [00:49:00] believe I, I believe in God, but I don’t believe in a religion right now. [00:49:05] The issue with that maybe call it an issue with the wrong word is that you have to find what is [00:49:10] your purpose. And I had to sit and think, what was the purpose of life for me? And I found that [00:49:15] the purpose, life for me is to feel things the good, the bad, angry, sad emotions. And [00:49:20] you get emotions from striving for things. You know, the process of building a company builds emotions. And [00:49:25] so with experience, I thought, what is the one thing that builds the most emotions? It’s meeting people, speaking [00:49:30] to people. People bring the most emotions. So I thought by [00:49:35] doing a bunch of different things, I’m actually going.

Payman Langroudi: Exposing, exposing.

Shyun Patel: Things. Yeah. The [00:49:40] why, why why why why. Comes back to, you know, my purpose of life. I like feeling things. Everything will come back [00:49:45] to that. So me doing different things, me, you know, going in paragliding in Vietnam [00:49:50] and then, you know, sitting in volunteering for a charity exposes me to two different kinds of people, [00:49:55] which selflessly, I have a really good conversation with [00:50:00] that person. Hopefully they enjoy it. But also selfishly, I get to experience two different sides of life. [00:50:05] And that’s my why. That’s why I like doing a bunch of different things.

Payman Langroudi: So keep going. The app [00:50:10] then.

Shyun Patel: So then I thought, okay, um, they say don’t, don’t. When [00:50:15] kind of doing a Start-Up and creating a business, don’t try and solve [00:50:20] a problem for everyone else. Try and solve a problem that you have and assume that other people have that same problem. Yes. So [00:50:25] I thought, okay, um.

Payman Langroudi: You were having dating problems.

Shyun Patel: Say problems. It’s, um, [00:50:30] it’s more that it’s looking at the world [00:50:35] and seeing which direction is the world going in and the world is going to a more a more digital way. [00:50:40] And sure, people try and push these apps where you meet in real life, but everyone’s [00:50:45] free to do that. And I think that comes from within. And you don’t need a platform to go and meet people, you know, on the street. You can have [00:50:50] conversations and whatever the way the world is going a certain direction, and I have some amount of influence. So [00:50:55] I thought, okay, the way apps are sorted now, where there’s different little bits of information, [00:51:00] there’ll be information like you support Liverpool FC and I support Liverpool FC, so that means we’ll get on and [00:51:05] that gets you so far or you’re like Iranian compatibility. Yeah. Well [00:51:10] it’s more like your.

Payman Langroudi: Common interests.

Shyun Patel: Common interests. You have common hobbies, but you don’t have common alignment. [00:51:15] Yeah. First, second or third day. Fourth day. And then what are you talking about? You’re talking about how many kids do [00:51:20] you want and where do you want to live? And you know, what’s affected your your perception of love? What’s your relationship with your parents [00:51:25] like? Right? Yeah, I actually believe that there are about 20 questions that [00:51:30] you could ask somebody that would give you a pretty, like I could give you a sheet of 20 questions and you have 100 [00:51:35] words for each question. And I could say to you, knowing you, if you’d get on with that person or not from [00:51:40] the talk, you could probably tell yourself, I think maybe you get it wrong certain times with more, with a lot [00:51:45] of probability. I feel like you would be able to tell if you were to get on with that person or not. So [00:51:50] I.

Payman Langroudi: Hear.

Shyun Patel: You. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But look, you know, the notion of like, opposites [00:51:55] attract.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Are you, are you is that is that.

Shyun Patel: It’s not, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not pairing based [00:52:00] off the same answers. Yeah. It’s pairing based off. So the obstacle 21 [00:52:05] questions. Um, and I’m trying to build an MVP at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: So, so what are [00:52:10] those say four of the questions like the good ones.

Shyun Patel: Um. What, [00:52:15] what, what is a reoccurring [00:52:20] issue you’ve had in relationships that you want to change, for example? Right. And [00:52:25] I think these are questions that I see someone sat in bed a long [00:52:30] day of work on the phone, on the sub, reading someone’s answer to something about the relationship. It doesn’t [00:52:35] have to be.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see, I can see other people’s answers. Yes. Yes. Raw.

Shyun Patel: Raw. [00:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Shyun Patel: And then you almost fall in love with that person through the way they speak. But all that does is the [00:52:45] the real life interaction still needs to happen, right? That’s the fundamental.

Payman Langroudi: But how interesting.

Shyun Patel: Instead of [00:52:50] meeting someone at like, let’s say the person you’re gonna date is typical [00:52:55] dating apps get you 60 to 100% and every person on date falls within 60% compatible, 70, [00:53:00] 89 to 100. I’m trying to get you to 90 to 100 where you might not get on with everyone, but [00:53:05] for every date you go on, you know, at least.

Payman Langroudi: You know the person quite well. Yes.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. You’ve [00:53:10] hit the ground a little bit runny. You’ve opened this conversation’s something I did actually, in a different format. Um, [00:53:15] one of the feedbacks from Leeds was they wanted more networking. Yeah. I thought, look, I’m [00:53:20] confident I can come to you and talk to you about anything. Some kids can’t. So we had we had networking [00:53:25] tables and we had a stand that goes, I want to be an orthodontist. I’ve got imposter syndrome. And everyone that sits [00:53:30] at the round table. And we had one dentist on each one gets to start a conversation already. Oh, you got to, I got to [00:53:35] and then yeah, start a conversation. So yeah, something I, I, um, [00:53:40] more passion project, but.

Payman Langroudi: But how far are you with it?

Shyun Patel: Uh, early stages. Um, [00:53:45] I’m working with a developer using a bit of AI now, so AI is cool. And, [00:53:50] um, like I said, building an MVP. So it’s, um, a really viable [00:53:55] product. So it’s how quickly can I, when you start a business, it’s how quickly can I test [00:54:00] this for the cheapest amount of money to the most people? So the best way I describe is, [00:54:05] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read lean Start-Up?

Shyun Patel: I haven’t no. Do you recommend.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where MVP came [00:54:10] from.

Shyun Patel: Oh okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Definitely.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:54:15] but have you come across lovable right.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I built, I built the website [00:54:20] with lovable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So MVP can make day after tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Literally literally. [00:54:25] Yeah. I was looking at cloud cloud AI as well. I think there’s a good couple systems. But yeah, I think [00:54:30] the thing was you probably had loads of people go, I’ve got this idea, but how fast can you execute is the [00:54:35] basic test.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing about business ideas because [00:54:40] I was talking to my son about this, you know, like he’s, uh, doing aerospace engineering.

Shyun Patel: How’s he finding.

Payman Langroudi: That? [00:54:45] Hard? Hard, like difficult course. Yeah. Loving it. He’s loving it. He’s having a great time. Um, but, [00:54:50] uh, you know, he’s only the first year. Yeah. And I was like, okay, what are you going to do with [00:54:55] your life after that? And he’s not sure. Like one of the reasons he’s engineering was because [00:55:00] he wasn’t sure.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It gives you options.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But like, does he want to be an aerospace engineer? [00:55:05] Maybe maybe he’s very into it. There isn’t that much money in it [00:55:10] number one. Yeah. Um it’s mainly defence. Yeah. And [00:55:15] that’s tough if you’re, if you come from the world I come from. Sure. That just gives you PTSD [00:55:20] every time you see it. Um, so there’s those things and then, you know, all his friends are [00:55:25] kids of bankers. Okay. So should he become a banker? And that’s bloody [00:55:30] boring. Yeah, but, you know, loads of money in that. Sure. And so what’s he going to do? Yeah. So I throw out [00:55:35] into the thing. Oh it could be like an entrepreneur guy. He’s like yeah but do what? Which what? [00:55:40] And I think like, I don’t know man. I think everything’s crap.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s rubbish.

Shyun Patel: Do you find that do you find that as a business owner, I find that I walk into restaurants or look into something. [00:55:50] I could make this better.

Payman Langroudi: No. Everything’s rubbish. Yeah, yeah I know. The only things that aren’t rubbish are maybe my AirPods, [00:55:55] but my latest ones, the rubbish.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I’ve never been a big airport guy.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying I [00:56:00] can’t think of anything. Like you go to like a seven star hotel and it’s rubbish. Yeah, [00:56:05] sometimes. Yeah. There’s plenty of rubbish that everything is crap. Everything could be a bit better. There could be better [00:56:10] coffee at every moment in your life if you’re a coffee guy. Yeah, like there could be [00:56:15] much better everything. I agree. And so it’s so interesting because that means you could do so many [00:56:20] businesses.

Shyun Patel: Look around, look around.

Payman Langroudi: Make it make something better.

Shyun Patel: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Have you been skiing? [00:56:25]

Shyun Patel: I’ve been skiing. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So you know those, fully DOS party places on the mountain. [00:56:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like that guy didn’t invent the idea of a party on [00:56:35] the mountain. Yeah. Yeah, he just made it better. He made it good. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah.

Shyun Patel: You have [00:56:40] to reinvent the wheel. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, yeah. But when you’re young, you think you do. You think you’ve got to be an inventor?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [00:56:45] I remember that the, the whole solar panel car that everyone goes through.

Payman Langroudi: And you think to invent something [00:56:50] like the number of times I’ve tried to invent some sort of interdental electric brush thing.

Shyun Patel: I think [00:56:55] everyone has had that. Yeah. Self brushing thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But just [00:57:00] like if you could have, I don’t know, the best anything.

Shyun Patel: Find a little margin on something that already exists. [00:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you had the best anything anywhere.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, like if you could in Liverpool [00:57:10] make the best anything, anything. The best burger, the best [00:57:15] hotel, the best anything. Yeah. You’d be great a great business. Yeah, [00:57:20] yeah. Then okay. The best, whatever it is in the whole country.

Shyun Patel: Just expand your niche.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [00:57:25] The best. Whatever it is in the whole world. Yeah. Okay, now. Even better. Now you’re really talking. That’s where the investors [00:57:30] get interested. You know, total addressable market is like $10 billion.

Shyun Patel: Or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it [00:57:35] is. Yeah. So if your dating app, you know, it doesn’t have to even be the best dating app, the best dating app for the [00:57:40] type of person.

Shyun Patel: Who.

Payman Langroudi: Wants that.

Shyun Patel: Kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah. But you’ve got a niche though. I think that’s what [00:57:45] things are. You just businesses are just attacking niches. Yeah. And you know, to.

Payman Langroudi: Start.

Shyun Patel: With, yeah. So [00:57:50] that’s what I’m starting with a niche, starting in a small city, building a culture, a culture building is a big thing. You’ve got it with the podcast. [00:57:55] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Something I’ve come across, I mean, is this, is this, am I talking [00:58:00] crap? Why are Patel so like good at business? Like, what’s that about? Is it [00:58:05] true?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, there’s, there’s.

Payman Langroudi: My partner’s a Patel, my business partner.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. There’s a whole I [00:58:10] have had that as well. I said at the conference, the last thing we need is another Doctor Patel. But it’s probably [00:58:15] going to be another 50 come through next year. Um, I don’t know. Maybe [00:58:20] it’s culturally rooted. I’m not sure. Maybe it’s the Asian background. [00:58:25] Maybe it’s just we come from a background of they say Patel’s a shopkeeper’s. You know, they say [00:58:30] there’s always this joke. Or was it at school? Um, what? Patel’s don’t play football [00:58:35] because every time they have a corner, they build a shop. That’s what they say. Right. Um, [00:58:40] and I think just having that there’s a difference from working in a factory [00:58:45] that kind of style and having your own business, no matter how small it is. So I think maybe that entrepreneur [00:58:50] has always been a thing. And then I’m not sure. I think I think maybe as [00:58:55] Patel does something, you look at that Patel would do something and then herd mentality. Herd mentality is a thing, [00:59:00] isn’t it? Um, and then you’ve got this auntie saying this and this uncle saying this and you think, okay, I’ve got to [00:59:05] be this. I think that’s what it is. I’m not sure. What have you come across a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Patel’s yeah man. [00:59:10] Yeah. A dev told me, you know, dev from Dental beauty, he told me, yeah, he’d [00:59:15] be sitting in, in rooms where people were just discussing business plans when he was [00:59:20] six, and he was paying attention to that. And he said by the [00:59:25] end of it, like what.

Shyun Patel: Education.

Payman Langroudi: What he knew about business was way more because [00:59:30] it was openly discussed in the family.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Payman Langroudi: He said, might have been a Patel trait.

Shyun Patel: That [00:59:35] is true. That is true. Your family gatherings and there’s just politics or this person’s done this and you start to think, [00:59:40] oh, maybe people everything comes.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, people underestimate osmosis as [00:59:45] a way of learning, you know, because my me and my brother, we used to be [00:59:50] in the same place all the time when we were kids. Yeah. But I was happy sitting [00:59:55] in the kitchen. Yeah. And my brother wasn’t. Yeah. And I wasn’t sitting in the kitchen [01:00:00] to learn how to cook. Yeah, but you can’t help it. Like your mum or your grandmother are chopping an onion. [01:00:05]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I realised many years later, my brother doesn’t know how to chop an onion. [01:00:10] Yeah, yeah. And I do not, because anyone came and taught me because I was sitting in the room 100%. [01:00:15] Osmosis is such an interesting.

Shyun Patel: Way of, I say to students like now, as if I’m not a student, but [01:00:20] the power of showing up, right? Just show up and just. Yeah, just show up and sit there and just.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you the other thing that you’re [01:00:25] very good at that more people should be like you. Yeah. Just asking [01:00:30] you be amazed at myself. The number of people who will never [01:00:35] ask for something. Yeah, I think I, I learned it when I was 45. [01:00:40] Really? Just like if you want something, ask for it. Yeah, yeah. And the number of times people have [01:00:45] asked me for something and for no reason, I’ve just said yes because it solves [01:00:50] my problem. Just because it feels good to help someone, right?

Shyun Patel: It takes a lot to ask, [01:00:55] I think. Yeah, it takes a lot. Takes a lot to ask.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But some people find it really easy and ask loads of questions and they [01:01:00] they get a lot further.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: And some people find it really hard and don’t even think to ask. [01:01:05]

Shyun Patel: I guess asking question is technically taking a risk. You’re taking a risk. You’re putting yourself in a position of you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Putting [01:01:10] yourself out.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, you could even before you were this famous student. Yeah, you [01:01:15] could have, you could, you could send an email to Corey Ferran. And [01:01:20] ask him to shadow for a week. Yeah. And he’s the kind of guy who. Well, listen, by the way, don’t [01:01:25] do that. Not not you. I’m saying I’m not. I’m not encouraging everyone to email. Email Corey. [01:01:30] Who knows? But he is the kind of guy who might just say, yeah, come turn up to my unbelievable [01:01:35] practice in in Wimpole Street. Yeah. And stand around for a week. He might say that [01:01:40] as a as a student, you think, why would he say that? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: But actually [01:01:45] why not? I actually, I actually flip, I actually flip what you say on its on its head about why [01:01:50] would a student say yes. So I started this whole not entrepreneurship, [01:01:55] but this whole dive into the dental world through Andy [01:02:00] Acton, you know, um, your ex rival podcasters, podcasters. [01:02:05] Yeah, I don’t know, friend, frenemy, frenemy, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: He’s, he’s a good friend.

Shyun Patel: He’s [01:02:10] a, he’s a, yeah, he’s, he’s probably the first guy that I’ve reached out to in the dentistry that gave me, gave me a [01:02:15] hand. And, uh, I just, I just, I just sent him a sent him a message. And yeah, I [01:02:20] remember the last thing I said in this Instagram DM because we don’t have, you know, messenger pigeons or, you know, that’s the [01:02:25] millennial way. Um, I said, uh, I think he has the same question. Like, which three people would you, would [01:02:30] you want to eat dinner? And I think I said, oh, I maybe next time someone asks me, I can [01:02:35] put, um, Andy acting next to, I think Cristiano Ronaldo and, uh, Joe Rogan and [01:02:40] then you go, sure, let’s go for dinner. We went for dinner. And I find that what I [01:02:45] said now it’s a different game. It’s a bit more saturated than when I first took the dive for whatever [01:02:50] reason. Is that the second you graduate, the second you get your GDC number, it becomes [01:02:55] a lot harder. It becomes a lot harder, I feel, because in some minds of some [01:03:00] people, not everybody like yourself, your competition, right? When you when you’re a student, you’re just, you’re [01:03:05] just a student that’s asking for help. And you people want to help you. If you’re young and you ask for help, I feel like people want [01:03:10] to help you. And I found that when I, when I was coming through my perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Jesus Christ, man.

Shyun Patel: I, [01:03:15] I find that that’s the best thing that I’m talking about. Andy said to me is that [01:03:20] we’re not none of us are competing. We’re competing against someone buying a new car or a new holiday. [01:03:25] You know, there’s enough patience to go about, which is what I believe. But I think my [01:03:30] generation, maybe a little bit older, there is that kind of competitive streak between people, unfortunately. [01:03:35] And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to the type of person who can get into dentistry [01:03:40] these days. It’s a competitive type of person.

Shyun Patel: True, true. You can’t blame I guess it’s, uh.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:03:45] find it overwhelmingly people don’t see each other as competitors. I mean, people see [01:03:50] each other as competitors when they’ve got practices on the same road.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that [01:03:55] we we kind of play on that a little bit as suppliers. Yeah I do. Yeah. Um, [01:04:00] because we have one partner who is that status in that town [01:04:05] and people want to be that partner. Sure. You know, um, but people practices [01:04:10] on the same road maybe. Yeah. Sometimes teachers get competitive. [01:04:15]

Shyun Patel: Do they?

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes. Sometimes teachers get competitive. But [01:04:20] it’s definitely not the case. Overwhelmingly.

Shyun Patel: I find people want. Every person I’ve reached out to [01:04:25] has helped me, and I feel like I’d encourage students that people want to help you. They have no reason not to help you. You know. [01:04:30]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go to PDSA. Sure. Yeah, because I was massively impressed by [01:04:35] the Leeds one passer did. Yeah. Um, just the scale [01:04:40] of the thing.

Shyun Patel: He smashed it.

Payman Langroudi: I had no idea. I hadn’t been to that part of [01:04:45] PDSA for years anyway. Yeah. But I had no idea how big it was. Yeah. 1000 [01:04:50] students, 1000 humans. Yeah. Anything times a thousand is a nightmare. Like [01:04:55] if you want to put a leaflet out for a thousand people. Yeah, that’s one, two, three, 4000. [01:05:00]

Shyun Patel: So when you see, when you see it, you’re like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just a leaflet, one leaflet or [01:05:05] you want to put you guys ask us for toothpaste for you put a thousand toothpaste into a thousand [01:05:10] tote.

Shyun Patel: Bags. Our living room saw it, you know, living room.

Payman Langroudi: So anything. Tens of thousands. [01:05:15] Tough. So tell me about did you volunteer for it?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So [01:05:20] I, we talked about me not not getting Dental SoC. Yeah. [01:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: And how long did it take you to get over the crushed feeling? Were [01:05:30] you still not over it?

Shyun Patel: Still crying. I’m weird. It’s it’s it’s. I’ll [01:05:35] get past things because you can’t dwell on things. But also, maybe this is the wrong approach. You’re sensitive, [01:05:40] but having. Yeah, I take things personally because I feel like that drives me to want to go. And that’s cute. [01:05:45] Yeah. Close the loop. Got to close the feedback loop on everything so.

Payman Langroudi: You got.

Shyun Patel: Over it. The bracket was open. Yeah. Well, I [01:05:50] said everyone has a selfish and selfish reason for doing everything. Yeah. My selfish reason [01:05:55] was the same as Dan soccer wanted to show people you can be anyone and do anything. Yeah. My selfish reason was [01:06:00] I wanted to, you know, make my parents proud. Essentially, I wanted them to see me on that stage. And I said, at the [01:06:05] Dental, the president’s parents got to go on stage, got to come to the ball. They’re the only parents who [01:06:10] come to the ball, and they were going to see me on stage and be like, oh my God, I didn’t get it. And I was like, oh. So I [01:06:15] thought, okay, I’m gonna go for it. So I went for it, but I thought, if I’m going to go for it, I’m gonna fall flat on my face. So just [01:06:20] a week after Leeds. Bear in mind the AGM for voting was in July. I was like, I’m gonna start planning now. [01:06:25] You know, like I’m gonna give them irrefutable evidence. I’m going to do this. So I [01:06:30] viewed all the venues. One week after Leeds went to all the venues, went to the M&S Bank arena, went to the cathedral, went to all these [01:06:35] venues, planned it and made a logo before the thing even existed.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were the guy.

Shyun Patel: Before I was the guy, [01:06:40] I made the logo and I went to, uh, Jay Jay Patel, super [01:06:45] lovely guy, worked with aspire and we made this video, this trailer that has gone around [01:06:50] and yeah, went, went there. And I said to them, well, [01:06:55] what would you want? I thought, what would they want from someone going for this role? And when you’re pitching [01:07:00] yourself, I find everyone goes, I’m a rapper. This, this, this, this, I do this, this, [01:07:05] this, that’s fine. But if you give them an experience where you’ve got the logo, you’ve got the venue. [01:07:10] And the one thing I said is that everyone can say x, y, z. But I said, you might not remember every lecture. [01:07:15] You might not remember every drink at the bar, but you remember how you felt, right? [01:07:20] And people come back to me and say, I remember that. And they go, I gave them something that almost existed in their mind, and [01:07:25] them not voting me would have taken that away. It wasn’t something to gain. It was something to lose. And [01:07:30] so I got this. And little did I know that again. Um, fast forward [01:07:35] to November, October. There were points where if I was to go back, I probably [01:07:40] wouldn’t have done it. We talked about this naivete and my.

Shyun Patel: So [01:07:45] I got the conference. I built a committee of about 20 people, [01:07:50] average age about 21. I thought, okay, you know, leads cost about [01:07:55] 160 grand. We’re in for 190. We’ll make something. And maybe this is just poor [01:08:00] budgeting. The issue with Bdsm, which I think it’s almost harder than some businesses, is [01:08:05] that you have some sort of financial plan with the business. You know, you go, we’ve got these, you know, nails [01:08:10] and we know this is going to come in and it’s going to be north or south of this. This is what we’re planning for. It should be to say is that [01:08:15] you you sign a bunch of contracts like I’m going to spend this money. And then it’s like, well, we’ve got zero. We’ve [01:08:20] got to make this money now. And one thing that I found is that when I’m set on something, maybe it’s this obsessive [01:08:25] trait or issue that I have, I’m set on it, I want this, I want this to happen. [01:08:30] So instead of budgeting, I made more money, went from 190, became 200, 200, 210, 210, [01:08:35] 200. And in the end it was me and three other three of my team. We made, we made a quarter [01:08:40] of 1,000,000 in 8 months.

Payman Langroudi: And in total.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, in total.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s sponsorships, [01:08:45] ticket sales tickets.

Shyun Patel: So yeah, we sold, uh, 950 tickets in nine minutes. [01:08:50] And what? Yeah, we sold it in nine minutes. We sold out in nine minutes. [01:08:55] How we did ticket drop and sold out in nine minutes. We did three, four ticket drops.

Payman Langroudi: The anticipation [01:09:00] thing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing. I thought one thing I said, which thankfully paid off for [01:09:05] me from the second I got it, I go, this is the biggest undergraduate Dental conference in history. And it [01:09:10] wasn’t it didn’t exist. It hadn’t happened. But I just said that. I said that from the July. And [01:09:15] it was a risk but self-fulfilling. It became the biggest Dental student conference in the history of the UK from. [01:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting with students, the. The virality is gigantic. It’s much more. I’ve [01:09:25] noticed that when I get students on this. Yeah, the virality is way more way. [01:09:30]

Shyun Patel: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Than when I get.

Shyun Patel: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because you guys are just more connected, more connected [01:09:35] to each other. I mean, like, for instance, the notion that you have to download the society app. [01:09:40] Yeah. To buy a ticket. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. It sounds mad, like from a, from a business perspective. [01:09:45] What more friction? Sure. Yeah. But the, you guys know that [01:09:50] you have to download the society app and that, that news travels, you try and get that news [01:09:55] out to dentists. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: So many steps.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Come, come and buy a ticket to my event. [01:10:00] By the way, download this app first. Who’s gonna do it like with students Just news [01:10:05] travels.

Shyun Patel: I think I think what you do in your events is very similar to BSA. [01:10:10] And I’ll tell you why I want to ask you about it. So I’m not naive enough to know that not [01:10:15] every student cares about education. Want to spend a weekend learning, right? Not every student wanna do that, right? [01:10:20] But when it comes back to the thought that you don’t know what you don’t know. So you’re having an event at Ministry of Sound. Yeah, [01:10:25] that’s a cool place to be, right? Some people just want to go to ministry. Some people for [01:10:30] me just want to go to the boat party. Some people just want to go to the cathedral. This is a party. Yeah. And [01:10:35] they go for a party, and they end up walking into a lecture. Oh, I learned something there. So it’s almost like I played [01:10:40] on the people that want to learn are going to come anyway. The people that want to come for a boat party want to come to create [01:10:45] an aspect of FOMO, want to come to a big gala dinner, are going to come for that as [01:10:50] a by-product. They’re actually coming for the the conference is the by-product and they end up learning and meeting. [01:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Someone said, we get this on our composite course. Yeah, people pay 1500 pounds for a two day hands [01:11:00] on and a number I wouldn’t say the majority. Yeah, a [01:11:05] number are just like trying to get out of the surgery.

Shyun Patel: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s hard. Being a [01:11:10] dentist is hard. Yeah. You have four walls and a nurse. Yeah. If you don’t get out once in a while, see the world, [01:11:15] see what’s going on, you get tired? Yeah. Um, and by the way, they’re on [01:11:20] the course. They’re on the course. But their primary driver is to maybe sometimes [01:11:25] 2 or 3 of them will get together and you know, from pals from dental school now they’re like [01:11:30] eight years in or something and they’ll say, oh, let’s have a weekend in Manchester together. Yeah, we’ll do it on the course. [01:11:35] Yeah. But their main driver isn’t to learn the skill, but they’re [01:11:40] in the course. Yeah. So sometimes we’ve had uh, warehouse project on [01:11:45] at the same time as mini smile makeover. And sometimes we turn up for the second day and [01:11:50] half the class didn’t make it.

Shyun Patel: Somehow.

Payman Langroudi: To the.

Shyun Patel: Second day. Yeah. [01:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And they paid £1,500 for the, for the, for the learning. Yeah. Um, [01:12:00] I mean that’s rare when half the class don’t make it. But.

Shyun Patel: But it happens.

Payman Langroudi: What? Your point [01:12:05] is, people do things for lots of different reasons. What events? You know, [01:12:10] like ministry for me is, is the idea with it was that I, [01:12:15] it started out with, I’m pissed off with gala [01:12:20] bloody dinners.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like I get.

Shyun Patel: Subpar food.

Payman Langroudi: You know, why? [01:12:25] Why do we have to dress up like James Bond?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, why? I mean, then you say, oh, it’s [01:12:30] a chance for the ladies to put their dresses on. Okay, fine. Yeah. And the other thing I [01:12:35] got really pissed off with is, uh, fancy bloody dress. Yeah. [01:12:40] I don’t like fancy dress. I do not like it personally. Okay. So then. Then I was talking to. Who [01:12:45] was it? Nick Sethi from bath. They’ve got a big fancy dress party. Okay. And I said, why is it we have to turn [01:12:50] up either as James Bond or Spider-Man? Why can’t we just turn up as us?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah. For yourself.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:55] that that idea of let’s let’s do a party where it’s just us. Yeah. Was [01:13:00] the initial thoughts? Sure. Yeah. But then with events, as you know, the two [01:13:05] big costs or it depends on your, your focus, right? But for me, the two big [01:13:10] costs are the a V because all AV is terrible everywhere. Yeah. I mean everywhere.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, [01:13:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If I come across a single place where the AV is any good.

Shyun Patel: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to bring it in [01:13:20] yourself. Of course. It’s a goddamn nightmare.

Shyun Patel: Expensive as hell.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the setup that [01:13:25] you have. How much did that cost? That was unbelievable. How many.

Shyun Patel: Screens? So?

Payman Langroudi: So [01:13:30] it was one gigantic screen.

Shyun Patel: It was one gigantic. And it fed in. So our overall setup for the [01:13:35] the whole thing was V6O8V30.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s all.

Shyun Patel: Bad. It’s not bad, [01:13:40] but a lot of AV came with our room, which our room hire itself was 60.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [01:13:45] okay. Okay.

Shyun Patel: So then yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So for me AV is a massive problem. Yeah. Getting a nice [01:13:50] good screen. Yeah. Feel sound. Everything correct. Um, so Minister [01:13:55] of Sound’s got amazing AV in place, like the world’s best sound systems.

Shyun Patel: Did not come from just. You want a good [01:14:00] AV and ministry and just married the two AV.

Payman Langroudi: And then the second thing is the party, [01:14:05] the social. Yeah. Mhm. Um, for me, that’s important because of everything we said, because I [01:14:10] have fun number one. But number two, so everyone can have fun, everyone can have fun and meet each other and [01:14:15] ministries ministry. Yeah, it’s already it’s already in place.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I suddenly realised those two [01:14:20] things are in place. Yeah. And then so the idea of a nightclub event was, [01:14:25] was the thing. And then we said, like which nightclub?

Shyun Patel: The nightclub. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s have a look. [01:14:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I realised I was looking at Coco as well, which is in Camden.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:35] name recognition wise. Yeah. Ministries Ministry.

Shyun Patel: Of [01:14:40] course.

Payman Langroudi: Well, and it’s so interesting. Yeah. Because if I said the minimalist at Queen [01:14:45] Elizabeth’s second conference centre. Yeah, yeah. Now you don’t know what [01:14:50] that is. You have to fully trust me on what the education is going to be like. Even if I had an [01:14:55] amazing party at Queen Elizabeth and party. It’s a cell. It’s difficult [01:15:00] to know what that is. Whereas you kind of know what this ministry events going to be anyway, [01:15:05] because it’s a nightclub event, we’re trying to make it different.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And make it very fast paced [01:15:10] and education that’s different. And treatment planning, audience participation [01:15:15] on nice. You know, which way did it, should it go? Experts say what they think. And [01:15:20] the.

Shyun Patel: Audience.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And only 15 minute lectures. Um feel different. [01:15:25]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. That’s what people want. We talk about like businesses. You don’t have to be better. You have to be different.

Payman Langroudi: Not [01:15:30] only different in a stupid way though. I just think like education’s a bit stuck.

Shyun Patel: What do you [01:15:35] think it’s going like?

Payman Langroudi: It needs to go and what it needs a shake up [01:15:40] like definitely needs a shake up dude. Yeah. Because like education hasn’t changed.

Shyun Patel: Dentistry [01:15:45] has changed. Education hasn’t changed. Yeah, yeah. It’s lagging. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve always thought [01:15:50] if I was the BAC, d or the a d, you know, like rich organisations. Yeah, [01:15:55] I would take a blank canvas event. Yeah. Have you seen it when you’re looking for [01:16:00] venues?

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Some venues they’ve got things. They’ve got bars and all that. And [01:16:05] this blank, blank canvas.

Shyun Patel: Oh, you can build it.

Payman Langroudi: You can build it, whatever.

Shyun Patel: Where you have the expense there. The expensive, expensive. [01:16:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but the notion of while you’re watching the lecture, we’re doing this at Missouri [01:16:15] while you’re watching the lecture, food and drink are available while you’re watching the lecture.

Shyun Patel: Nice. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: So it’s an experience.

Payman Langroudi: If I yeah. If I want to have a beer while I’m watching this lecture, it’s [01:16:25] there. Yeah. And there’s, there’s waiter service in the VIP, you know what I mean. So, so it makes [01:16:30] going and I think of it as a cinema. You know, I’m not a massive movie fan. Okay. [01:16:35] Yeah. But if I ever go to a movie, I definitely go to one of those ones where there’s amazing food, [01:16:40] amazing sofas. Yeah. Because if.

Shyun Patel: The movie.

Payman Langroudi: If the movie’s rubbish.

Shyun Patel: This [01:16:45] experience was something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve got I’ve still got the experience, you know, that that was the thinking.

Shyun Patel: No, [01:16:50] I like that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then tell me a okay Massive risk.

Shyun Patel: Massive [01:16:55] risk.

Payman Langroudi: Not knowing whether you’re going to pull it off financially. All of that. These 20 [01:17:00] people were you like, did you did you ask like, what’s the best way? Or did you [01:17:05] think of it yourself?

Shyun Patel: There was.

Payman Langroudi: Was each of them in charge of one aspect?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, there was a lot of I’m a strong [01:17:10] believer that anything that you do, you stand on the shoulders of those before you. So so with Lina and Parsa, um, [01:17:15] both did amazing successful events. And, you know, we had my committee, [01:17:20] you had the exec committee, you guide me. But ultimately I had a vision. And the vision is [01:17:25] not made up of anything physical. It’s just kind of these ideas of feelings.

Payman Langroudi: How you want people to feel.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:17:30] And I thought sometimes it’s just you have dreams of stuff like, would it be cool to be in a boat party [01:17:35] and see fireworks? I thought, let’s just make that happen. So did it. Um, and I wanted [01:17:40] people to step in there and feel I’m not, I always say the phrase, I want the least interesting thing about [01:17:45] me to be that I’m a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Shyun Patel: Right. So, you know, [01:17:50] we’re in the people business. So you don’t talk to people about being dentist or talk to patients about being [01:17:55] a person. So come to the event I thought I want, whether you’ve got imposter syndrome, [01:18:00] you’ve got you want to be an orthodontist or you want to have 50 practices, there’ll be, there’ll be someone there [01:18:05] for you. And, uh, with the committee, it’s hard to motivate people. You’re not paying. Yeah. [01:18:10] And what I’ve learned is that people are motivated by different things in business. It may be [01:18:15] I can. Now, you might come up with a couple more, but in business, I narrow it down to three things. Motivate [01:18:20] by money, move by time, motivate by how much can I progress my career? Okay. [01:18:25] I guess committees like understanding each person’s individual, knowing what drives them. And [01:18:30] I said, the harder it is, the more fulfilled you’ll feel. And you make a name for yourselves. And we had [01:18:35] a little, um, kind of reality TV show that Artemis, uh, was [01:18:40] doing for us on our social media team. And I realised that I am, I have [01:18:45] an understanding of everything, but I’m not the best at anything, you know, maybe, you know, talking to sponsors [01:18:50] and onboarding clients. You know, I feel like I’ve got some grasp back, but the social media guys, [01:18:55] they’re better than me. You know, the people doing the ball, they’re better than me. All these different teams, all these different [01:19:00] people were better than me. So I think to be a good leader is to understand you are good at this. You [01:19:05] be in charge, you give them guidance and you can, you know, have to reshape some emails and, [01:19:10] you know, well.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s an important point, dude. Yeah. Because yeah, I [01:19:15] like Virginia. Yeah. We know we both the Virginia. Of course. Hey, you take care of this. [01:19:20] Yeah. Whatever the thing is. Yeah. The the delegation [01:19:25] of that task to her. Yeah. There’s one sort of easy way of [01:19:30] thinking about it is I want people to feel this way. Go for it. Yeah. And leave it all [01:19:35] up to her. Yeah. Yeah. That’s one way. Yeah. That’s not great leadership.

Shyun Patel: No, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:19:40] great leadership to even say, I want someone else to do something, I trust you. Yeah. That’s one level [01:19:45] leadership. But the next level is Success looks like this. Yeah, [01:19:50] failure looks like that. The milestones towards success [01:19:55] are five. So we’ll meet five times as [01:20:00] each of those milestones happens. Yes. And we can work out together. What’s the best thing and what’s [01:20:05] in your way and how I can help you.

Shyun Patel: Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s not my natural way.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No, [01:20:10] my.

Payman Langroudi: Natural way is. Go ahead and do whatever you want. Have to do.

Shyun Patel: Do you feel like it comes out [01:20:15] the way that you want it or you. You’re okay with that? Do you go with.

Payman Langroudi: My natural way? Man, I’m. I miss those [01:20:20] five meetings. Really? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: I kind of see it as the. I kind of see it as [01:20:25] like there’s a, B and C players in kind of businesses, companies, how good they are, how [01:20:30] good they are. But sometimes people.

Payman Langroudi: You can leave them.

Shyun Patel: Ace. Like, you know, I’m going to tell you, do [01:20:35] this, do this, do this, do this. B’s going to be like, I want this, but these are the landmarks on here. And [01:20:40] C’s like this is the goal. Make it happen. And, and I think, you know, [01:20:45] Dave and Virginia, for me, very much like could tell them things. Of course, sometimes it’s not exactly how I wanted [01:20:50] it. Sometimes it’s better than how I wanted it. But that’s when you delegate. Delegate is a tough, tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:20:55] one of the toughest.

Shyun Patel: It’s.

Payman Langroudi: How did you find sales? Did you find that [01:21:00] very simple? It came.

Shyun Patel: To me. I’m a. I’m a Bryant Dental rep.

Payman Langroudi: So of [01:21:05] course you are.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Been been doing sales and.

Payman Langroudi: I just had. I just had them on. Did [01:21:10] you and Connor.

Shyun Patel: Connor. Nice. How did it go?

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It’s um with [01:21:15] sales. I think it’s just understanding. People say, how can I provide value to this person? I think if [01:21:20] you’re trying to sell something when it comes across wrong, but you miss the point, the whole point of sales, [01:21:25] I feel, is to what value add can I add to this person? What experience have [01:21:30] they had? So what people don’t ask the question, what conference have you been to? You’re a dentist. You’re went to BACD. What [01:21:35] was really good for you? What didn’t go so well for you? And then how can we focus [01:21:40] in on the things that do provide you value. Um, and understand look.

Payman Langroudi: And then delivering [01:21:45] is the.

Shyun Patel: Delivering is hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard when there’s so many. You guys, we have 3036 [01:21:50] sponsors.

Shyun Patel: Well, that’s the thing. It’s you know, I think overall there was a positive experience. [01:21:55] Someone had an amazing experience. Some sponsors didn’t have um, as [01:22:00] positive as others, but they’re all positive. But then it’s like different people want different things [01:22:05] out of it. And when you push in one direction, something else gets taken. And it’s [01:22:10] for me, the hardest thing with BSA was everyone talks about like, okay, undersell overperform, [01:22:15] but then when you’re scared of selling 1000 tickets, you kind of got to market it. So do I, do I over market [01:22:20] it and like make it this big phenomenon? Do I under market and no one comes to it. It’s that [01:22:25] balance is very tough for me and I will not be doing it again. Events for a long time, but [01:22:30] I’d have a lot more insight going forward.

Payman Langroudi: You learn loads, you [01:22:35] learn loads. Um, but I find, you know, what I find hard about selling is intention [01:22:40] to buy. Yeah. Is kind of this cloudy thing. [01:22:45] Sure. Saying yes, I will buy. Yeah. Like the yes moment. Yeah. [01:22:50] It’s difficult to.

Shyun Patel: Even even after the yes.

Payman Langroudi: The than the payment. Oh, yeah. Like payment for events. [01:22:55]

Shyun Patel: We’re still waiting as.

Payman Langroudi: A as a sponsor myself. Yeah. I personally hate paying [01:23:00] for an event before the event. Like, yeah, like with me, I like paying one week before if I [01:23:05] have to. Sure. I kind of like paying for it after the event. As, as the organiser though, you need [01:23:10] that money, especially with you guys, right? There is no other money.

Shyun Patel: There is no other money.

Payman Langroudi: There’s some other money [01:23:15] I.

Shyun Patel: Was seeing the account were down, down, down the invoices. And you’re waiting for. Yeah. And then the Po [01:23:20] number and all these things come up.

Payman Langroudi: But but then, but then, but then the cardinal sin, the cardinal sin is [01:23:25] being very attentive until the moment that people say yes. And then and then [01:23:30] just leaving them. Yeah. And it’s, it’s almost, it’s almost like a natural thing [01:23:35] because your motivations are that way. Like right now I need this headline sponsor for [01:23:40] Ministry of Sound for sure. Yeah, I need it. Yeah. So I’m following up people. I’m like, [01:23:45] hey, did you look at the thing? What do you reckon? You know, I need it badly. Yeah. So I’m following [01:23:50] up. Then when the person says yes, I’ll be the headline sponsor, your natural thing is to breathe. [01:23:55] Okay. That’s done. I don’t need to contact him.

Shyun Patel: You still need to deliver.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, you do need [01:24:00] to contact him and say, hey, let’s talk about how we’re going to make this a massive success for you.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, sure. And that’s what [01:24:05] I think. I think the event was so big, it was trying to balance. One thing I wanted to do was the experience for the sponsors. [01:24:10] So typically have trade fairs and you dot people. I allocated committee members [01:24:15] to groups of stands. I said, look, if no one said go make conversation, talk to them, bring people over. I wanted everyone to [01:24:20] have a good experience. Um, and it is a hard balance to, you know, when you’ve got the next [01:24:25] thing to the next thing to do. But ultimately the, the sponsors and I think students realise this [01:24:30] really allow the events to go to this size, then investing in the next generation [01:24:35] and hopefully there’s some value add is what makes these events possible. So I’m forever indebted to the sponsors because [01:24:40] some of them won’t realise those points. My back was against the wall and it’s not like it’s [01:24:45] very easy for me to say, but there’s a there’s a there’s a [01:24:50] point that could be argued. I don’t want to compare them where you’re in business. And sure, [01:24:55] if your house is up for sale and your back’s into one of your kids, food’s on the plate, you’re in dire situations. But if [01:25:00] I’m in a business and I could have made money and lose a bit of money, fine. But this was national humiliation. This was [01:25:05] I can’t make I can’t make a loss. I have to chase it. And when we were going to, to [01:25:10] January. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The driving force is [01:25:15] I don’t want to be humiliated and I want to make my parents proud.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s a funny thing, you know, like from the outside, you’d say, hey, here’s an ambitious [01:25:25] kid. Whatever. He’s doing his event, whatever. Yeah, but the driving force is to make my parents [01:25:30] proud.

Shyun Patel: We signed the contract, and then you sign your life away. And I was like, that’s it. Life was gone. Didn’t see my friends, didn’t [01:25:35] do it was, uh, it was a tough year. It was, uh, I was, I would say to people I did about 40 hours [01:25:40] a week on top of. Give us an.

Payman Langroudi: Example of something that went badly wrong that you didn’t expect.

Shyun Patel: I [01:25:45] did something bad that came around to be a good thing in the end. Um, so we were initially, [01:25:50] every year there’s, there’s been one venue, if you’ve been to them, the dinner and the conference [01:25:55] in one venue. And so we went to the M&S Bank arena. We wanted to have everything in one venue. That’s what happened. [01:26:00] They have in-house catering, so we didn’t know that we were set on this place. It was [01:26:05] the only place that could hold that number of people. So we either can do a conference that was smaller than last year, or have [01:26:10] to push it to 1000.

Payman Langroudi: You’d made the promise, right?

Shyun Patel: I made the promise conference. I [01:26:15] had to go for it. 1000 signed it. Everything was good before I signed it, had conversations and they would go, okay, [01:26:20] you can’t use any of the catering. And they use this company called, I won’t say this company. They have to use an in-house company. Now [01:26:25] they’re catering for all the people. And bear in mind, I’ve never done events. So I just went off what passed and I [01:26:30] go, okay, catering for the ball 13,000. Okay, okay, cool. [01:26:35] But 13,000 went to these guys.

Payman Langroudi: For a thousand people.

Shyun Patel: I don’t know how he does it. Don’t know how he did it. But [01:26:40] they had an in-house company, I think £15 each.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. They they got some Indian companies [01:26:45] going. This company. Okay. Um. How much? 8000. I [01:26:50] go, oh, okay. We’re not gonna have to have a dinner. How we can do it. So then okay, [01:26:55] I’ve got I’ve got a new venue. Can I find another venue? Do the a v for everything. Less than eight hours. I found one, they could bring it down. [01:27:00] Okay. I did it at the had the cathedral set it up. As we’re going along [01:27:05] they go. We had a really bad experience bringing in an external caterer. You’ve got two caterers to choose [01:27:10] from and this and the price for catering was like 5000. And [01:27:15] I was in a point where we weren’t going to have a gala dinner. There was going to be no gala dinner for BSA [01:27:20] for the first time ever. And it was in those times I went and spoke to Dean Virginia. It was I sat in my room [01:27:25] and my head was on the table. And I just thought, what am I going to do? So we tried [01:27:30] and tried and tried. I tried asking him, tried this sort of stuff, had a back and forth about trying to make stuff okay. We tried to build trust. Oh, [01:27:35] we’ve got the backing of the city. We can do this. We can sit down and talk to us. And one day, the [01:27:40] top guy of the cathedral sent a letter and he goes, no, no, no, you [01:27:45] got to use these guys got 50 K. And I got to Virginia and Dave got this email and I was in clinic and I got [01:27:50] this email and go, okay, so we’re not we’re not going to have a dinner. Okay. We got to figure out what we’re going [01:27:55] to do now. Panic stations. Remember the committee don’t know. It’s almost like we’re the parents and we [01:28:00] know something bad’s going to happen and they don’t know, and.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t want them to lose their.

Shyun Patel: License and [01:28:05] nobody knows. And you’re here and your heart’s palpitating. I remember we got told about, um, ten, [01:28:10] 10:00, okay. And I said to Virginia, [01:28:15] I go, okay, a sense of almost I call it delusion, [01:28:20] a delusion. It was complete delusion, complete long shot. I go, you know what we’re [01:28:25] gonna do? And this was after months of back and forth, go to wardrobe and find [01:28:30] your best suit and put and put your best suit on. And we’re going to go and knock on the front door of the cathedral tomorrow. [01:28:35] So we’ll put on our suits next day. Completely hopeless. They and [01:28:40] they, we’ve had conversations like what? They told me. They just humoured me. They just humouring me. I [01:28:45] had this delusional ideas put on our suits. Three piece suit. One suit just went to the cathedral, knocked [01:28:50] on the front door. They were like, look surprised.

Payman Langroudi: Without an appointment.

Shyun Patel: No, no appointment. [01:28:55] Just turned up, turned up to the front door and we went in there and I sat down and they see [01:29:00] this and go, look, I’m running this event, this three day event. And we’ve worked so [01:29:05] many months on this. And the last piece of the puzzle is getting this dinner sorted. And we’ve tried for months [01:29:10] and we’ve had ups and downs. And I want to look at you. And I said, look, you’ve never had a student event here. You have [01:29:15] no reason to trust me. Right? And I gave him all these reasons to why this, all these reasons, what I will [01:29:20] do will work for the team. Da da da da da. And he goes, okay, get this, get [01:29:25] this caterer. You want to bring in, get him to sign a proposal. Like two weeks later, I wrote a proposal, got it approved, [01:29:30] and I flipped it around. But it was it was no logic. It was nothing. It was just a sense of just [01:29:35] let’s just go. And I think no analogy for life. Just go knock on the front door and just amazing. Just see. Yeah. [01:29:40] So lots of ups and downs, a lot of, uh, grey hairs gained. But, uh. [01:29:45]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about practice.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want to tell [01:29:50] me about?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So, uh, your practice. Yeah, yeah, it’s [01:29:55] an interesting thing to say to me. So I’ve got a pretty [01:30:00] interesting, interesting story. I have a dental practice. Now. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: How did you fund it?

Shyun Patel: I [01:30:10] had an interesting business. So when I was 19, I, [01:30:15] you know, like typically typical young Asian [01:30:20] kid, like I got a whatever I do in life, I wanted to make an upstream impact on upstream and wherever [01:30:25] I landed on for me, I wanted to make impact, you know, in terms of as a clinician, you impact your patients. Like, how can I impact [01:30:30] the, people, the dentists, the impact the patients and make as much impact as possible. I like talking [01:30:35] to people. That’s my strength. I’ll, I’ll go down the group of practices. And my plan was I was going to get [01:30:40] one in my first year, my first one two years out. But I thought, okay, to [01:30:45] to do this goal, you need some capital. And I was 19, I tried dropshipping, I [01:30:50] tried trading, tried forex, I made a couple thousand, lost more thousand, didn’t really do much. [01:30:55] Right. So and then one day I was, I was in my living room at home. I was scrolling [01:31:00] through Facebook Marketplace and everyone’s probably watching this saying, you should go touch grass, go [01:31:05] outside. But there I was scrolling through this marketplace and I saw that people were selling fridges on Facebook Marketplace. [01:31:10] But the weird thing was that they were selling them for free. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:31:15] just take it away from me.

Shyun Patel: Take it away from me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a problem, right?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And I was so have you seen like a [01:31:20] fridge or a sofa on the side of the road? People often see them. And I thought, why, why, why do people do this? [01:31:25] Did what? Research? And turns out there’s CFCs and chemicals in and fridges that make them really [01:31:30] hard and dangerous to dispose of through landfills. It’s quite expensive process. Yeah. And, um, [01:31:35] I thought, okay, sat and I thought and I thought and I thought and I thought, okay, the same way Uber [01:31:40] don’t make cars and Trivago don’t make hotels. I’ll connect product to consumer. [01:31:45] So I one day went on Facebook [01:31:50] and I reached out to a guy selling a fridge and, um, [01:31:55] said I hired, I think the first one was with my car like a small one. And I went [01:32:00] and picked up this fridge and put it in my polo. And then I did a bit of research about, [01:32:05] you know, it was in pretty good shape this first one. And then I sold it.

Payman Langroudi: Was it working?

Shyun Patel: It’s working, [01:32:10] it’s working, it’s working. All of these ones are working.

Payman Langroudi: The guy just wanted.

Shyun Patel: To just.

Payman Langroudi: Get rid of rid of it.

Shyun Patel: They want new [01:32:15] fridges, but they wanted.

Payman Langroudi: To sell it on Facebook Marketplace.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, we did a bunch of someones Facebook Marketplace, uh, [01:32:20] eBay, bunch of different stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Got it for free from Facebook Marketplace and then sell it.

Shyun Patel: And then what I did is, [01:32:25] um, is that I realised that there’s something here, you know, being the middle man. And [01:32:30] I then used to, like, you know, hire vans, uh, pick up fridges from all over, all [01:32:35] over. I was at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Facebook marketplace.

Shyun Patel: Facebook marketplace, eBay tree, [01:32:40] bunch of different websites.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of people were trying to get rid of fridges.

Shyun Patel: Fridges, fridges, and sometimes there’s [01:32:45] forums just this. You find crazy stuff online and pick them up and then we just [01:32:50] sell them. And I hired a bunch of people, um, knew what to look for [01:32:55] and things were faulty. You got to be careful because you need specific engineers to drain the gases and stuff and. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Fixing them.

Shyun Patel: Not not fixing them. It’s more like just taking a good, well, well, [01:33:05] um, fitted fridge that was functioning, cleaning it down. If [01:33:10] parts change. We did that, we kind of, um, freelanced that I bought relationships through the years and [01:33:15] then you sell them and then, uh, made a good amount of money and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:33:20] this is in dental school.

Shyun Patel: This is in dental school. Yeah. And, um, something that I don’t really talk about too [01:33:25] much, but yeah, I just thought, let’s now look at anything like TV. Microphone. There’s cup. I think someone’s [01:33:30] made 100 grand or a million off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. This I look at fridges now and I think yeah, it’s great. [01:33:35] And unfortunately like the, the legislation, um, around fridges [01:33:40] has changed to change the chemicals and things. But that was something I did and it was, uh, just a gap in the market I saw. [01:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: So interesting.

Shyun Patel: And yeah, just used to be the fridge man and just, uh, buy and sell [01:33:50] fridges and did pretty well and then got a bunch of capital and [01:33:55] from there, you know, did a little bit in forex and then pushed it a little bit. [01:34:00] And then.

Payman Langroudi: When was the Bryant thing in this.

Shyun Patel: Bryant thing was more [01:34:05] in.

Payman Langroudi: Before or after fridges? Uh, during.

Shyun Patel: Towards the end of it, [01:34:10] Brian wasn’t really for monetary value. Brian was I wanted to learn, uh, [01:34:15] sales. Um, I think like a lot of people that have had contact with Bryant, the people [01:34:20] and the company, it’s very electric. I talked to George a lot And just [01:34:25] it’s just a forward thinking company. And I think like, you don’t know what you don’t know. And people [01:34:30] go and say, yeah, I want to build this big DSO big company. But like DSO is not structured the same way that [01:34:35] a single practice is, you know, these, these practices are almost structured more like a corporate company. [01:34:40] So having insight into manufacture, having insight into companies and [01:34:45] structure and people. And also, like I said, sometimes I’m talking to students, sometimes talking to my tutors. [01:34:50] And when you’re selling to, to dentists, it’s quite an intimate thing. So you’re having a conversation and they’re being [01:34:55] vulnerable with them. And as a person, a lot of most of these guys are sales reps, but I was a dental student. [01:35:00] So you learn a lot from talking to these guys. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Listen, working for Bryant might be one of the best things [01:35:05] you could do as a dental student. Yeah. But what I find really interesting is their insight to [01:35:10] understanding the students will make good salespeople. Yeah. Because no one else is. No [01:35:15] one’s really done that.

Shyun Patel: I think only now recently other companies are catching on. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it could be anything, [01:35:20] anything.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But that insight is a really interesting insight that they kind of built their.

Shyun Patel: Shoes [01:35:25] are hungry now more than ever. They want, they want, they want to.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, you know, you going into [01:35:30] 100 practices or whatever, however many you went into meeting 100 dentists, you could get [01:35:35] a job with one of those guys if you want. You’re more like the employer type than the employee. So [01:35:40] you made all this money?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And then what happened was I would [01:35:45] so, so so I figured that clinical dentistry people talk about my tooth. I took [01:35:50] my tutors now and they go as people come out of dental school, they’re coming out. Maybe this isn’t true, [01:35:55] but this is just a thing that some people say. Maybe five trainers say that, oh, they’re coming [01:36:00] out worse and worse every year. And maybe there is not for everyone, but [01:36:05] an arrogance to some people coming out. And I feel that I am completely average dental student, average [01:36:10] every year. Nothing, nothing extraordinary academically or in terms of my with my [01:36:15] hands, I feel like it’s going to take me time to be a good dentist. I’ve got a lot to learn. I can learn off anyone. I don’t claim to be anything [01:36:20] special, but the business of dentistry. There are people, there are books. There [01:36:25] are videos you can learn about CQC. You can learn about comply SEO. You know, you can [01:36:30] learn about these things. You can learn about how to order products, and you can learn how to structure companies. [01:36:35] And I feel like this information, I’m very privileged to be born in the generation I am, [01:36:40] is out there, and I advise people to go out there and just learn about these things. And so. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s it’s drives me sometimes. Yeah, there’s some question. [01:36:50] I’ve got a question. Yeah. Whatever the question is, it could be sure chemistry thing with [01:36:55] I wish I paid more attention in chemistry in school nowadays. And now I’m having to hire a [01:37:00] bunch of chemists. Yeah. But it could be a chemistry. It could be any question. Yeah, sure. And you’re thinking, God, what’s the [01:37:05] answer to this question? You’re feeling a bit down about it. And then you’ve got to just wake yourself up and say, [01:37:10] dude, you are better placed to answer this question.

Shyun Patel: Than anyone in history.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone in history. [01:37:15] Now with AI.

Shyun Patel: Takes me like 10s. Yeah, you know, everything. The thing. So I think now [01:37:20] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: But it drives you.

Shyun Patel: Forward because it’s so it’s so it’s so easy to find [01:37:25] the answer to this people. And it links into the people side of things. But also you can do self-learning or [01:37:30] have more informed conversations about people. And instead of acting, asking, you know, agencies, oh, [01:37:35] like you can ask them what’s a good yield? Or what should you look for? Or what grade building should you look for [01:37:40] or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, uh, you know, a [01:37:45] practice popped up and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Were you signed on with [01:37:50] Frank Taylor Associates?

Shyun Patel: No, I talked to Andy, but.

Payman Langroudi: For the sake of the argument.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:37:55] were signed up to all these.

Shyun Patel: All these things. And my dad helped me, like, because he has a, he’s [01:38:00] a. Yeah. So so you look, you look at practice and you understand where there’s margins, whether they’re closing early, [01:38:05] whether there’s sort of more practices, capacity, you know, all these different things that you can really spend [01:38:10] time and learn about where the margins can be for practice. And I thought found practice with good margins. I thought, I can’t [01:38:15] take a, I’m not going to take a really thriving practice. I’m practice. I’m not naive enough to, as a 2122, [01:38:20] turn to even more thriving practice, but I thought, you know, there are margins here. Heavily referral practice, [01:38:25] ortho practice. People do clear aligners. You know, people asking this, this lady, oh, do do do do [01:38:30] composite bonding, do do this, this. And they said, no, no no no no. Well, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Was there an aspect of you here [01:38:35] that was like wanting to be the youngest guy ever to buy a practice, like something like that. Because I [01:38:40] remember the first time I met you.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You specifically came and asked me, do you know of anyone younger than me? [01:38:45] Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So, so joy is I think it’s, um. [01:38:50] Well, that was a bit of naivety there probably in a little bit of, um, you [01:38:55] know, overconfidence.

Payman Langroudi: You driving you achievement of being, um, someone who does that [01:39:00] in Dental.

Shyun Patel: I think it sounds good, but over a long term, long term it doesn’t [01:39:05] fulfil me. It’s more that they see comparison unconscious comparison. Um [01:39:10] is is can [01:39:15] cause arrogance, I think, or can cause pain, but conscious comparison can cause [01:39:20] growth. So compare yourself to yourself, but also looking at everyone else around [01:39:25] you and almost looking at sure can look at Dental, but can look at dentists as well and say, look, where am I placed? [01:39:30] Because you go from, look, let’s be real. You go from being a and being like, okay, whatever hypothetical [01:39:35] place you want to put yourself in, dental students, then you graduate and then you’re back. You’re just a student, just [01:39:40] a dentist. Then you’re not the.

Payman Langroudi: Most junior dentist in the.

Shyun Patel: World. Yeah. And so then for me, it’s, [01:39:45] it’s, I can’t say I’m where I want to be in ten, 15 years time, but you can look [01:39:50] at trajectories and look at look, if I’m, you know, doing this in my second year, then [01:39:55] I might be doing this my fourth year. So people bloom at different times. But yeah, I mean, it’s cool [01:40:00] to have something so young and it’s scary because no one’s done what you’ve done. So it’s navigating a field [01:40:05] and no one really understands or conceptualises it. But like [01:40:10] I said, it comes down to talking to people, you know, someone’s some of the guys on this podcast an extraordinary [01:40:15] younger than me, um, doing these start-ups doing things that [01:40:20] and it’s easy to look at someone else, you know, maybe even yourself on this podcast, look someone else like they’re doing amazing [01:40:25] there. But oftentimes I look at other people think, you know, they’re killing it. I could dream to be this person or even the things [01:40:30] you’ve achieved. It’s and people don’t give themselves a lot of credit. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s [01:40:35] a, like a downside to all of this insomuch [01:40:40] as chasing something? No, I mean, you’re a dental student, [01:40:45] man. You know, there’s another dental student in Liverpool right now who’s just going out, getting [01:40:50] drunk, kissing girls, whatever, whatever his thing is. Yeah, yeah. He hasn’t got the weight [01:40:55] of the world on his shoulders. Um, which is correct when you’re young. Sure [01:41:00] not to have the weight of the world on your shoulders. And by the way, when he qualifies, [01:41:05] he may suddenly turn into this tactical dude who wants to become a specialist endodontist or whatever [01:41:10] it is. Yeah, sure. But do you do you feel like, I mean, every every big endeavour comes with [01:41:15] sacrifice, right?

Shyun Patel: Lots of sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: And we can say about like, if you put it in a bracket, [01:41:20] say a big endeavour sacrifice, right? All these extra hours [01:41:25] that you spend relationships.

Shyun Patel: Relationships, friendships, friendships.

Payman Langroudi: Birthdays you didn’t go to. [01:41:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No. And it’s true. And I think the funny with these, it’s like you think you work hard until you actually work [01:41:35] hard. I found that, you know, it’s it’s this, this phrase people [01:41:40] say is that you sacrifice time, you sacrifice time to get money to get time. Yeah. [01:41:45] Right. So, you know, um, and I played with this idea that, oh, I want to spend more time with my [01:41:50] family, so I’m gonna work really hard and have freedom and spend time my family and spend time my family now. So [01:41:55] it’s like, what? Um, and it’s a, it’s an interesting concept. And I [01:42:00] think contentment is something that is something that I really try and think about that I’m [01:42:05] extremely grateful for where I am, you know, from a health perspective for me, but [01:42:10] also, Like I said, for me, it’s, uh, the pursuit, you know, it’s [01:42:15] the pursuit. It’s the range of emotions I will feel getting to that point. When I get to the point, I want to feel something [01:42:20] else. So I might chase be more creative, I might chase friendships, [01:42:25] and I try and find the balance. You know, I don’t feel like I’m someone that, um, I’m [01:42:30] quite content with someone being more successful than me because I want to have an enriched life.

Shyun Patel: You know, I like music. [01:42:35] Uh, I mentioned I was in a band and I like running, like going to the gym. I like [01:42:40] going to the pub with my friends. But there is a point where when [01:42:45] you’re so invested in business and work, I [01:42:50] felt like this. I became very obsessed where I couldn’t turn, I couldn’t turn it off. And every time [01:42:55] I was with my parents, I could tell I was knowing them. And I was knowing my friends that I’m in the room, but I’m not really in the room. [01:43:00] And the cogs are turning and I’m checking my phone. I’m saying, one second Payman, I need to, uh. And it’s [01:43:05] hard because then it’s where does the contentment end? When? When are you content with life? Because not [01:43:10] being content, if not content with how you look, you go to the gym. If you’re content, you don’t do anything. So it’s like, where [01:43:15] is the balance? And that’s not an answer that I have right now. I could ask you the same question. Where does it go [01:43:20] with you to push for the next thing? Because the reason you go for the next thing is because to [01:43:25] some extent, you’re not happy with how things are right now. But then where does that.

Payman Langroudi: I find it hard, man, [01:43:30] this question of contentment and progress. I think it’s [01:43:35] bursts of each. Yeah, because they seem like they’re in opposition with each other. If I’m content, [01:43:40] why am I progressing? I’m content. Right. Sure. Um, there’s [01:43:45] another thing that when you, when, when you got your diagnosis. Yeah. That, you know, [01:43:50] that thing that spurred you.

Shyun Patel: Spurs you back into the.

Payman Langroudi: As you get, as you get older, it becomes a question [01:43:55] of how many years have I got left in this business? Yeah. And did [01:44:00] I, did I achieve, did I live up to my, to my potential?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting [01:44:05] question. Potential. Yeah. You know, I remember had Robbie Hughes. It was episode [01:44:10] six or something, and he was he was saying he’s an obsessive guy. [01:44:15] He’s one of the most obsessive guys I’ve come across. Yeah. Um, but what really drives [01:44:20] him is living up to his potential.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And I think Matthew McConaughey says in one speech is that I’m chasing [01:44:25] myself in ten years time. And when I get there, I’ll chase myself in ten years, I’m never going to catch, you [01:44:30] know, my hero or myself. But that’s the joy of it.

Payman Langroudi: But the reason I bring it up is I [01:44:35] look at I sit here, look at you and think, wow, man, at this age, so focussed, so [01:44:40] like interested and interesting and, you know, you’re gonna I feel [01:44:45] like from the business perspective, everything’s going to be just fine. There won’t be a problem.

Shyun Patel: But [01:44:50] that’s the fact that I’m not sure of that is what drives me.

Payman Langroudi: There won’t be a problem. Yeah. It depends on what [01:44:55] your goal is. If your goal is a thousand practices, then you may not get. Yeah. [01:45:00] You know what I mean? Who knows? Yeah. I just feel like from the business perspective, you you love it so much [01:45:05] that you will be successful. But the question of the question I asked about, what [01:45:10] are you missing out on? Yeah, you’re definitely missing out on something for sure. Now you’ve got this [01:45:15] rounded career, right? You’re in a band. I, if I were you, I would [01:45:20] just stop, smell the roses and think a bit more about that. I know you’re in your final year [01:45:25] now, but your your next 2 or 3 years. Yeah. After [01:45:30] that, you’re not really young anymore.

Shyun Patel: No, it’s it’s like you said, [01:45:35] the balance of. Yeah, you can go back to Spain when you’ve got [01:45:40] all these millions and. Yeah. But there’s something beautiful about going with your friends and staying in a hostel and being a bit [01:45:45] broke.

Payman Langroudi: That speech you made, I don’t know, like, is that was that original content or whatever?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Shyun Patel: Beautiful. Yeah. [01:45:50] So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: To summarise.

Shyun Patel: So for.

Payman Langroudi: Someone who wasn’t.

Shyun Patel: There. So so I asked [01:45:55] at the beginning of the conference, what’s better, the journey or the destination? And [01:46:00] I said to people, the question I’ve been thinking about a lot and one day, you [01:46:05] know, people might have grandchildren. The grandchildren come running up to you and they’ll go, grandma, grandma, what was better? You had [01:46:10] this amazing life, this amazing career. What was better, the journey or the destination? And I told everyone [01:46:15] to pause and to take a look to their left and look to the right. And in the end, it’s not [01:46:20] about the journey, not the destination, but it’s about the company. For it’s not where we’re going, nor how we get [01:46:25] there, but the people we do it with. And I think this podcast and the, the philosophies [01:46:30] that this podcast shows that it’s not really where it’s going or how it got [01:46:35] the people and the conversations you have through the process is really what makes life enriching. And [01:46:40] I guess for me, it’s, it’s, it’s not about it’s not even where I’m going. I [01:46:45] think all these things I’m doing just open doors to meet new people, you know, whether [01:46:50] success allows me to go to the depths of India and meet, you [01:46:55] know, people there or, you know, through the process, I get to meet even. That’s one thing that [01:47:00] drives me as a dentist, you know, who, who’s going to sit in your chair and have such interesting conversations and I.

Payman Langroudi: Miss [01:47:05] the thing I miss the most about being a dentist.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think.

Shyun Patel: When it comes back to you, what you said about why, why, why, why, [01:47:10] why the one why that I can’t answer. The one why that I don’t have a why to is I [01:47:15] genuinely like on my like hand and heart. I love talking to people. I get [01:47:20] such a thrill. I love it, I talk too much, I love it, it’s, uh, it’s. And I can’t tell you why. [01:47:25] It’s just love the conversation, love feeling. And [01:47:30] I think that’s why I like films, you know, someone talks to you and they take you on. And I was like, what do we like to to have [01:47:35] enlightened run a podcast? I’m hearing you speak and you’ve got a son like, yeah, I never thought about life like that. And it just [01:47:40] enriches my experience of, of life.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the biggest mistake you’ve made?

Shyun Patel: The [01:47:45] biggest mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Clinically.

Shyun Patel: First. Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Clinically [01:47:50] be perforated.

Shyun Patel: I have perforated. Yeah, I [01:47:55] have perforated.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a moment isn’t it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It’s your heart drops. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I have, I have. [01:48:00]

Shyun Patel: But the first time is.

Payman Langroudi: When the blood doesn’t stop at all.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah. I remember the [01:48:05] first time I took out a tooth, uh, fractured it. That was, uh, that was definitely something. [01:48:10] I remember it really, really funny one. I think it was my, my second patient, Liverpool [01:48:15] was really good. My second patient ever had. We had patients, we see patients from first year. And [01:48:20] I remember this one time vividly. Um, I [01:48:25] had a patient and he had, he had two first names. So for the sake of argument, let’s [01:48:30] call him.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Harry Tom.

Shyun Patel: Like Steven Adams, Steven Steven Adams, [01:48:35] right? His name is Steven Adams. And I go, oh yeah, Steven Adams. Come to the Steven, Steven. [01:48:40] Mr. Steven Adams and I realised about a month in that his name was Adam Stevens. [01:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shyun Patel: So that was that was one thing. Um I’ve had, I’ve had, you know, [01:48:50] you know, we know each other in Liverpool, so you see some stuff. Mhm. Um but [01:48:55] yeah, clinically I’ve been pretty, pretty sound. But yeah. Breaking routes um exposing [01:49:00] popes. All of that stuff. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Which aspect [01:49:05] of dentistry do you like the most at the moment?

Shyun Patel: Do you know what, general? I really enjoy everything in dentistry, but [01:49:10] the thing that sparks excitement to me, which is, you know, ironic because I’ve just talked about breaking roots, [01:49:15] is oral surgery. I really like oral surgery. Don’t know if it’s because it’s more scarce than other things. [01:49:20] And for me at Liverpool Dental School, when I just take it out, I just feel like.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever cut [01:49:25] a flap?

Shyun Patel: I’ve not done that yet, but I’m grateful to be a [01:49:30] shameless A.D. rep plug. Um, and good friends with like Amit. We [01:49:35] had George at the conference as well. Manraj Rickey So I’ve gone to like ag events where they do mainly [01:49:40] focus on implants and peri dental school is very different. [01:49:45] I don’t know what to say to you. Periodontics is very different. Perio post post-grad and [01:49:50] so much more interesting. So oral surgery, perio implants [01:49:55] went to Shadow Evo not so long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, how’d you find that?

Shyun Patel: I loved it. I really.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. [01:50:00]

Shyun Patel: No, um.

Payman Langroudi: Just on their program.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Yeah. No, I know, I did it. I think he, um. [01:50:05] I’d spoken to him about it. Um, but I spoke, I was with a guy called Amar [01:50:10] who also went to my school maybe 15 years before me. And it [01:50:15] was just for me, you know, getting people out of pain. It’s almost a superpower, right? It’s a [01:50:20] superpower that we have that we have a responsibility to do. And there’s a multitude of ways in which we get people out of pain. But [01:50:25] one of the ways is, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, taking out teeth. Yeah. Now, if you [01:50:30] have longitudinal care with a patient, you should take out the teeth and socket. But, but I think something about fixing [01:50:35] that gap with a, with a prosthetic. And that’s where kind of the, the close bracket [01:50:40] of that treatment, it kind of almost feel like when I take a tooth out and the happy and they go away, I almost want to [01:50:45] close that gap. Yeah. And I feel like watching them do full arch implants and just [01:50:50] they’re so skilled and their workflow was amazing. Just set a fire.

Payman Langroudi: And the work is very [01:50:55] important work, you know, like, like giving someone a set of teeth. Yeah. Fix teeth. Yeah. [01:51:00] Change their life. Yeah. Change their life. You understand? Like it’s hard to imagine [01:51:05] for people like you and me. Sure. What it’s like not to have any teeth. Yeah. But. But for [01:51:10] a second, for sure. Go there. Yeah. Imagine. Teeth. Yeah. Like that. [01:51:15] I can’t eat, I can’t kiss, I can’t, you know, these are fundamental. [01:51:20] Even fall in love. Who’s gonna fall in love with the person with no teeth?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I can’t fall in love. Like, these [01:51:25] are major issues in life.

Shyun Patel: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so, like, the great thing about Implantology [01:51:30] is it’s serious work. Number one, the work itself is serious, but it’s serious consequences [01:51:35] is in good consequences for sure.

Shyun Patel: And I think the fact that.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re into it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [01:51:40]

Payman Langroudi: Jump in man. Um, do you think you’re going to be a proper working dentist or have you one of these guys who wants [01:51:45] not to be?

Shyun Patel: You know.

Payman Langroudi: What?

Shyun Patel: From the beginning, I’ll be hand on heart. I love [01:51:50] clinical dentistry, and it’s all good and fine and dandy doing all these other projects [01:51:55] and businesses, but it’s almost like the business aspect of it. So I think people make decisions [01:52:00] a lot on financial. I think people make financial decisions. Most people. I want to do cosmetic dentistry. [01:52:05] Yeah, I like it. But I thought about, I don’t know, peds as well, but I went with it because equal. [01:52:10] But this has paid better. Yeah. A lot of people do that.

Payman Langroudi: I hear that a lot.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I don’t want finances [01:52:15] to ever be affecting the choice of something I’m passionate about. And so the business [01:52:20] side of it is just keeping me afloat, paying for me to live the business, do the business things. And [01:52:25] that’s why businesses are there. I have a passion for that. But dentistry, I want to think, I want to do implant if I [01:52:30] didn’t get paid.

Payman Langroudi: Like a hobby.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. If I didn’t get paid for it, I genuinely am fulfilled from the work I genuinely fulfilled from [01:52:35] going there and doing dentistry. And of course you can graduate and you don’t know what you don’t know. So I don’t be naive [01:52:40] and say, yeah, I’m going to do this and streamline it and I’ll come back to you. And I’m an orthodontist. Who knows? Um, but [01:52:45] yeah, right now that that’s.

Payman Langroudi: My advice is go like, you know, my advice is opposite [01:52:50] to all your friends, your mentors advice is to, yeah.

Shyun Patel: Tell me, tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Most people say try [01:52:55] lots of things. Decide. Find out what you love and chase that. I’m like, pick [01:53:00] anything.

Shyun Patel: And then just.

Payman Langroudi: Go and get really good at it and you’ll end up loving it.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:53:05] That’s very true as well. I think the hardest thing in life is knowing what you want to do and then taking the steps. [01:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, within dentistry, like if you had some outsider, you know, someone had nothing to [01:53:15] do with our world. Yeah. And he was listening to you and he was like, oh, you can’t make up your mind whether you’re going to focus [01:53:20] on gums or root canals or, or whatever. You know, like restorative [01:53:25] or. Yeah. Can’t make up your mind on that outside of like, what the hell, like get good [01:53:30] at any of them.

Shyun Patel: Do you know what? Even even for me, I like I like general dentistry. I know, I [01:53:35] know, I know, um, maybe a lot of young people I’ve heard speak, like have a speciality. I [01:53:40] like general, I love, I love it and you know what? Even just.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the thing to get really good at. [01:53:45]

Shyun Patel: As well. I’ll tell you one thing as well. Even if I was to have, you know, whatever success in business, [01:53:50] I, I do like the. And I’ve not lived it. So people are probably listening to this like, no, get out. I [01:53:55] like the hustle and bustle of like NHS dentistry. I want to I, [01:54:00] and I think it’s, I think some.

Payman Langroudi: People like it, some people.

Shyun Patel: Like it. I want to build foundations.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like the fast moving [01:54:05] nature of it.

Shyun Patel: I’m not saying forever. I’m not saying forever.

Payman Langroudi: But some people love the fact, the consequences a little bit [01:54:10] less because your patient hasn’t really properly paid for it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, but I’m not one of those.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like the fact that it gives [01:54:15] you lots of experience very quickly. Yeah. That’s that’s where you’re when you [01:54:20] ask your teachers, they’ll say this. They say, go do something, you know, get your miles in. Yeah. It’s true. [01:54:25] Yeah. Um, but I don’t, I wasn’t into it at all. [01:54:30] I hated it, I hated it. I remember in f d on the first day of f d when they said, [01:54:35] oh this is what, and it was firstly the practice itself, um, [01:54:40] didn’t make me.

Shyun Patel: I know there’s lots of red tape and I know there’s lots to it, but I wonder if [01:54:45] the financial implications. And I know there’s a multitude of maybe things that people want. But if financial [01:54:50] finances were there, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’m wrong about this. Yeah, it’s just [01:54:55] my own bias. Yeah. Yeah. But a patient is a patient. Yeah. An NHS [01:55:00] patient needs care.

Shyun Patel: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so if you’re involved in the care of that NHS patient, [01:55:05] you know, that’s dentistry. Sure. Yeah. I’m pissed off with third party telling me [01:55:10] what to do.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s between me and the patient. I understand patient’s got a problem. I’m the dentist. I don’t [01:55:15] want any third party telling me what to do. Sure. That’s what really annoys me the most about it.

Shyun Patel: And I think there’s [01:55:20] so much to it. And that’s a conversation we’re having. You know, this three year tie in and all [01:55:25] these things. Because when you’re with the PDSA, you go to these meetings and they have these conversations. [01:55:30] It’s interesting. I don’t know where the industry is going to be for young people.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re going to be one of these DSO types? Would [01:55:35] you like to? Would you like to have multiple practices?

Shyun Patel: I would like to yeah. And it’s not it’s, [01:55:40] uh, I don’t come here thinking that I [01:55:45] can I’m better or I know something more than anyone else, But in my head, I think [01:55:50] you have to believe you can do it. I always say, if you think you’re going to succeed, you might not necessarily succeed. You’re gonna [01:55:55] fail. You’re 100% fail. And and people. My mum always tells me, don’t set expectations. [01:56:00] Expectations so high. You know, you’re gonna be crushed when you don’t get it. And I always say, you know, if you shoot [01:56:05] for the stars, in worst case, you land on the moon.

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, but but like, [01:56:10] some people wouldn’t see multiple practices as the stars.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, sure.

Payman Langroudi: I think for me, [01:56:15] it’s a particular character.

Shyun Patel: For me, I want that because I want to have, um, if [01:56:20] I’m going to go into details more, look, you can run a [01:56:25] single practice in a certain area and a certain demographic with a certain amount of stuff a certain way. Okay. And [01:56:30] for me, I want to have impact. Remember, my goal is to have as much impact. And there’s different [01:56:35] ways you can create a product technology. But for me, you know, having a group practices and impacting dentists, [01:56:40] impacting their day to day, impacting patients, having their own. But if I have one practice run a certain way [01:56:45] and I go Payman run a practice, you go. Well, you don’t know that this is a very specific circumstances. [01:56:50] If I have a practice in Norwich and I practice in London, I practice in Newcastle and I practice in Spain [01:56:55] and they’re all happy, they’re all doing well and they’re all slightly maybe this maybe this kid is [01:57:00] way of and I don’t know this, you know, I could be completely wrong. Maybe the way that he does things works [01:57:05] to some extent. And maybe that’s a selfish thing, like a selfish thing. But I really [01:57:10] want people to have a good experience day to day, because the people [01:57:15] that work for you, they come in and little things.

Payman Langroudi: But, but but, but the, the, let’s say [01:57:20] the vast majority of dentists who start a practice or work in a practice, own [01:57:25] a practice, own one. Mhm. Yeah. One. Sure. And it’s [01:57:30] much easier having a happy workplace in one practice.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:57:35]

Payman Langroudi: Than in ten. Sure. Like a much, much, much easier.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I can imagine that.

Payman Langroudi: So so [01:57:40] if your goal is to have a happy workplace.

Shyun Patel: My goal is to my main goal is to impact as many patients [01:57:45] as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But then impact, I used to say this when I was your age. Yeah. Um, I [01:57:50] hate dentistry for that reason. What my impact is going to be. Yeah. This room and [01:57:55] the people. But impact is as much about depth than it is about breadth. [01:58:00]

Shyun Patel: Sure. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult.

Shyun Patel: Needle. That’s the balance, right.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult needle to dance on. Yeah. [01:58:05] But you know impact. All right. 10,000 people will download this podcast. [01:58:10] Yeah. Impact. Yeah. Is that is that enough or do you want [01:58:15] sponsorship for this podcast? Is that impact? Sure. Yeah. It’s just a funny thing.

Shyun Patel: How do you find [01:58:20] it? Scaling versus keeping quality because that’s always the balance.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s everything’s hard, man. Everything’s [01:58:25] hard. Believe you me. Like a hundred practices. Yeah. All working. [01:58:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massively difficult thing to pull off massively. We got to, I [01:58:35] don’t know, 29 employees. I remember it was that’s where it was at 29 employees. [01:58:40] We had a massive situation with employees. Yeah. Like someone was bullying some. Some [01:58:45] manager was bullying a bunch of people that we had no idea about. We didn’t know. [01:58:50] Yeah. Yeah. 29.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the same building. Yeah. Yeah. Um, [01:58:55] so, so, so my point is it gets harder and harder and harder. Now you’re saying you’re up for hard [01:59:00] things. Great. Yeah. But but you.

Shyun Patel: Have to be aware, I think I think that’s the thing. No, no, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding [01:59:05] like the it’s important that the driving force behind the. [01:59:10]

Shyun Patel: Decision.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re after.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is based on something that actually [01:59:15] makes a difference because, you know, like sometimes it’s convenient for it to be, I want to make my parents [01:59:20] proud. Yeah. But your parents are proud.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No, that’s not the driving factor into the practices, I think. [01:59:25] Look, like you said, you can.

Payman Langroudi: Impact is huge.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And there’s different ways of making impact. There’s [01:59:30] there’s different ways we all make impact.

Payman Langroudi: I’m still trying to make it.

Shyun Patel: Clinicians clinicians make him back. Clinicians make him back, you know. [01:59:35] Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you know, one of the things that dentistry does have that a lot of professions don’t is [01:59:40] that sort of Heartfelt thank you from a patient. Yeah, [01:59:45] you’d be amazed the number of professions that don’t have that. Yeah, yeah. Like if your lawyer does a great job [01:59:50] for you, sometimes your accountant does a great job for you. It’s not it’s not the same heartfelt. Thank [01:59:55] you. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is some of some of the golden bits about being a dentist. Yeah. [02:00:00] Are less impactful than you might realise. Yeah. And so impact [02:00:05] on one person. One person. Sure. Deep impact on one person [02:00:10] might be more important than shallow impact on a thousand.

Shyun Patel: And that’s why I’ll never give up clinical [02:00:15] dentistry. Yeah. Because I think there’s different impact you get. People say like, what makes you happy? It’s not [02:00:20] one thing. It’s not one thing that makes you happy. There’s some things on a really high frequency that make [02:00:25] you happy. Some things like going on a walk make you happy. Yeah. And so for me, like.

Payman Langroudi: For me, depth [02:00:30] of impact has become much more interesting to me than breadth of impact as I’ve gotten older. [02:00:35]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When you’re young, you just feel like, oh.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Practice [02:00:40] in every city in the world.

Shyun Patel: And I think that as you get as I get older, you know, where I start [02:00:45] and where I end may not be because you learn things and you change. I’m not, I’ve [02:00:50] got, I’ve got, I think I’ve got a good balance of being focussed, but also being open that the [02:00:55] thing I think is the right thing to do may not be the right thing to do. Yeah. And I have one conversation that could change that or I could [02:01:00] start this. This is not really what I wanted. This isn’t worth it. This isn’t the goal. And then [02:01:05] you change. And being adaptable, I think they say, I think they said this century the best skill [02:01:10] to have is to be adaptable. Things change so quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Darwin.

Shyun Patel: Right? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about what stands [02:01:15] out as the best lecture you’ve been to? Like what comes to mind if I say what’s a lecture that stands [02:01:20] out?

Shyun Patel: Do you know what I think? Just [02:01:25] something that someone said in the lecture. So, uh, Christian Joshi did a lecture. It [02:01:30] was in a clinical lecture at the dentistry show. And he said something. He goes, you can’t connect the [02:01:35] dots forward. You can only connect them backwards.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: That’s true. And it really just made me think, [02:01:40] you know what? I’m sitting here trying to plan doing this, this, this. So this is gonna be, I don’t know, all I can do is [02:01:45] sit here now and be like, that happens. I can meet this person. So this could happen. And so they say [02:01:50] what life can only be live forward, but only make sense backwards. And the way he just emulated that really just made me think, [02:01:55] you know, yeah, plan. But also you don’t know what’s going to happen. [02:02:00] You just sometimes have to go with the flow.

Payman Langroudi: What about.

Shyun Patel: Clinical. Clinical I would say. Manraj [02:02:05] Kalsi and Ricky Bhopale I [02:02:10] went to the a d I went to like a the road show and [02:02:15] just some of the ways they were talking about implants. And for me, it’s interesting that, [02:02:20] um, I, that for me was like really, really [02:02:25] informative. It’s a whole day hands on, but some of the stuff they were talking about, some things they could do, some things I didn’t know were possible. [02:02:30] And then that partnered with my experience at Evo where it wasn’t really a lecture, but I thought the whole day was kind of a lecture learning [02:02:35] experience. Um, really for me stood up.

Payman Langroudi: What about like, what’s your favourite resource? [02:02:40] Like it could be anything. It could be a book, it could be a website. It could be a [02:02:45] Instagram page.

Shyun Patel: Um. I’d say [02:02:50] Instagram in general is a, is a big resource. And I’d say as [02:02:55] much as I want to pinpoint it to, to one thing, uh, the multitude of different, different Instagrams, [02:03:00] um, some of the, you know, I look at some guys in, [02:03:05] in London or America really good at marketing. Some guys have really good clinical cases here. Um, I [02:03:10] think, yeah, there’s no, there’s no specific Instagram page, but the more [02:03:15] of them all together and then, you know, little things like, um, revising for exams [02:03:20] and also like, I know it sounds quite cliche, but the BSP and all these guidelines you can [02:03:25] read and just stay on top of them and yeah, standard resources.

Payman Langroudi: And [02:03:30] what would you say is your hero?

Shyun Patel: My hero. Um, [02:03:35] I’d probably say my hero is my dad. I [02:03:40] said, my dad’s my hero because. [02:03:45] From [02:03:50] achieving success, but coming from a humble background made me realise that no [02:03:55] matter where you go, who you become, where you come from, you should always, like, stay [02:04:00] grounded. He’s values people. He [02:04:05] always puts people first, even at the detriment of himself, which, you know, there’s a healthy balance. And I think [02:04:10] just having that humility in life, it’s so easy, especially not to get caught up in [02:04:15] noise and stuff. And I always say, you know, you [02:04:20] can go around dental school and it’s great. And people say shine, they shine that. But when I come home to my friends, [02:04:25] some of them are tradies, some of them are lawyers, some of them are unemployed. Go [02:04:30] home to the same pub, and in that pub we’re all we’re all the same. We’re all just a bunch of losers. Just [02:04:35] sat with our pint in our jackets and old friends. Yeah. And it’s just like, you know what? No matter what, I always want to [02:04:40] have those core values of what’s important in life, what’s important in my. Why did I choose to do dentistry? [02:04:45] Why not choose to do business? You know, keep in sight of the core values and not getting [02:04:50] caught up because when you’re young, when I was in first year, you can get caught up in university and things, but as I got older, I think [02:04:55] they were important things in life. My dad reiterates to me, you know, you’ve done all the successful. No, we’re just gonna, [02:05:00] you know, my mum as well. My mom’s are always six to a bag, which won’t like me saying this, but she’ll freeze milk, [02:05:05] you know, you know, my parents doing okay, but because it’s, you know, we can’t waste food. [02:05:10] And these are important, right? You just you can’t just waste life, not be grateful [02:05:15] for little things and recycle clothes and do your part for the community. These things are important. [02:05:20] So I think, yeah, my dad especially makes sure that I stay on the straight [02:05:25] and narrow.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice. My buddy. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party, three guests. Who you got. [02:05:30]

Shyun Patel: First I’m going to say Sam Altman. [02:05:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think we like him. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you like the product?

Shyun Patel: I like [02:05:40] the product, but I want to know, like I said, what mine take what? What mind? Um, [02:05:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Y Combinator.

Shyun Patel: Yes yes yes yes [02:05:50] yes. And just talk to him about his story, how [02:05:55] he thinks, how he got to where he is and just how he sees the future going. Because I think [02:06:00] AI is really shaping not just like things, but education and how we process education, information, [02:06:05] everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Uh, then second to that. Okay. [02:06:10] So let’s take Sam Altman as someone that’s going to represent my future, someone that’s going to represent [02:06:15] my past. I’d say someone like, uh, Marcus Aurelius, right?

Payman Langroudi: The stoic. [02:06:20]

Shyun Patel: Yeah, the stoic principles of life. And one thing, Marcus, I like touching on the, [02:06:25] the last point about my dad is that he had a slave. Have you heard this? Yeah. The slave that he used [02:06:30] to ride on his chariot. And, he was a Roman emperor. Everyone used to like, you know, his head get massive and, you know, like [02:06:35] hubris. You know, the thing that makes you great could also kill you. And he had a slave that sit behind him in his chariot, and [02:06:40] he’d whisper to him, um, you’re just a man. You’re just a man. And I [02:06:45] quite like that. And I think, you know, sometimes just you’ve got to realise, you know, you just had to be yourself. [02:06:50] But I’m just a just a kid, you know, I’m just figuring it out. I’m not. Nothing more. Nothing less good on the stream. [02:06:55] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: You were a popular kid for a couple of days after the essay.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, but, you know, you [02:07:00] know what? It’s just my friends are the same friends. You know, everyone. Everyone. Everyone can be friends. Um. [02:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: And who’s the third?

Shyun Patel: The third would be da [02:07:10] Vinci. Oh, yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Just the, the different things he invented.

Shyun Patel: Just [02:07:15] just I don’t like being put in a box. And, you know, he did anatomy and art and science, and I thought [02:07:20] he pushed limits on all sides and I thought someone else could do it. Why couldn’t I do it? How [02:07:25] did he balance the three? And, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, since since you are [02:07:30] at that age and, you know, we had this series going on future Leaders [02:07:35] kind of series. Nice. Three years time. If everything went [02:07:40] perfectly for you, what would it look like? Or if it a bit longer? Five [02:07:45] years time.

Shyun Patel: Five years time? No, I don’t [02:07:50] want to jump too far to think, but I, I would hope that I’m, you know, still [02:07:55] working five six days. I. Would [02:08:00] hope to have a couple clinics at that point [02:08:05] and just enjoying life, but finding the understanding that I’m content where [02:08:10] I’m at and that everything I’m doing is for the right reasons and not [02:08:15] because I’m chasing some unattainable goal and getting lost in it. So yeah, I think enjoying [02:08:20] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Clinics.

Shyun Patel: Three. We’ll [02:08:25] see. Maybe I’ll leave my. I’ll probably eat my words. Who knows? [02:08:30] I’ll have some clarity and go down a different route. But yeah, that’s I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you Underpromising and Overdelivering? Is [02:08:35] that is that the.

Shyun Patel: I’m being extremely delusional based off nothing. So we’ll see. Uh, [02:08:40] not.

Payman Langroudi: That it’s a joke to have two clinics in five years out. Not that it’s a joke, but I just feel like you’re [02:08:45] going to be accelerated a little bit.

Shyun Patel: We’ll have to see. You know, I’ll have to believe it for it to happen. [02:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Well, I’ve had a really interesting time.

Shyun Patel: Talking to you. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been an [02:08:55] easy, easy conversation.

Shyun Patel: It’s been a good two hours.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [02:09:00] really been simple. I really appreciate I learned a lot my buddy. I learned a lot. Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:09:05] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [02:09:10] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [02:09:15] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [02:09:20] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [02:09:25] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Adrian Dray and Kal Harron, both [00:01:00] from stack onto the podcast. Good to have you guys, man.

Adrian Dray: Thanks ever so much. It’s [00:01:05] good to be here.

Kautham Haran: Thanks for having us.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian was on a previous episode. I can’t remember [00:01:10] which number that was, but, um, you can just search in the Dental Leaders, um, feed [00:01:15] and find that long, brilliant episode. I love that episode with Prav. Yeah. [00:01:20] Um. I’ve never been on an episode of Dental. Leaders. [00:01:25] But good to have you tell me, both of you, how did you find k stack [00:01:30] or how did K stack find you?

Kautham Haran: Adrian I think your journey with stack starts a lot longer [00:01:35] than mine. So yeah, probably best to start with you.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I think, I think to give some context, [00:01:40] you know, the, the question is why did you [00:01:45] give up a very comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:01:50] to join a US company brand new to the UK in [00:01:55] dentistry that is known for really disliking change, right? [00:02:00] I think that’s the the thing because it seems on paper madness [00:02:05] and a massive gamble and, and it was and it, it the decision happened [00:02:10] in around 2023. But actually [00:02:15] where this started brewing happened when I came out of hospital with [00:02:20] Covid in 2021. So somewhere in the Dental community, um, [00:02:25] I got Covid really bad hospital bad. You’re going to die tonight bad. Um, [00:02:30] and my joke is spoiler alert, I didn’t, you know, but the, the, [00:02:35] the, um, uh, but the thing the reality was, is that [00:02:40] I had six months previous to that had given up my job at my dentist, thrown [00:02:45] all of my savings into setting up.

Payman Langroudi: A data, data.

Adrian Dray: Data protection.

Payman Langroudi: Officer. Yeah. [00:02:50] My dentist.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. And I thought, I’m going to help others practices and smaller groups. And I put, I moved house [00:02:55] and I put all of my investment, I had all of this savings and invested [00:03:00] into the business and all of this, uh, uh, business [00:03:05] lined up. And then after I came out of Covid in hospital, I’m in a wheelchair [00:03:10] and I can’t like, I can’t talk for more than ten minutes needing, needing to lie down [00:03:15] because my lungs are shot.

Payman Langroudi: They put you on a ventilator.

Adrian Dray: I was so close. They basically washed me down and said, either [00:03:20] going into ventilator tonight or you’re dying, right? It was sort of black and white as that. [00:03:25] So I thought, look, I want to I want to stay in dentistry. I can’t do GDPR. [00:03:30] Is there something else that I can do? And I was looking at the software scene, and I was noticing [00:03:35] there was a lot of talk about CRMs and lead management systems, but there wasn’t much that was out [00:03:40] there. And I found one which was a white label product. Now you [00:03:45] and I know what white label it is, and I realised not a lot in dentistry. No, it’s where you’ve got a [00:03:50] off.

Payman Langroudi: The shelf.

Adrian Dray: Off the shelf products, which you can then put a wrapper on where you can say [00:03:55] Adrian Dres lead management system or whatever it might be, but it’s the same system that’s being [00:04:00] used by someone else in veterinary or estate agents or whatever it might be. So [00:04:05] I thought, well, what I’ll do is I’ll, I’ll start building on this and help the community. [00:04:10] And I was got quite far with it. And then an individual in dentistry [00:04:15] who’s got a bit of a community came, came and found out about it and came to me and goes, I [00:04:20] want to get in on this. I want to help you push this out. And I was like, okay, yeah. Thank you. That sounds [00:04:25] really good. We’re great to leverage your your community. And it was just relentless day after day when you bring it out, when you [00:04:30] bring it out. And like, I nearly died like a few weeks ago, you know, can you just give me a chance? [00:04:35] And it got to the point where he wore me down so much, right? It became this sort of like, friend, [00:04:40] I’ll help you. Um, and then just went to this bully real bullish. And I [00:04:45] just got, you know what, here’s the name of the system. You take it, you do what you want. And [00:04:50] he grew a business out of it. And this software was going everywhere. As [00:04:55] more and more people were signing up, I’m watching my bank balance just come down and down and down. Right?

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:00] was the emotion?

Adrian Dray: I was very angry at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Angry [00:05:05] at yourself. Because you gave him, I gave him.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [00:05:10] I think I probably should have stood up for myself more, more. Um, and [00:05:15] I thought, this is this is awful. And I remember the end of that year, I was looking at my bank account. [00:05:20] I had like nothing in there. And like, this is going to really tough. Thankfully, I was living with my [00:05:25] mum at the time. And then all of a sudden, uh, this company out in the US who [00:05:30] I’d met previously wanted me to be their spokesperson because now I can talk once, [00:05:35] be their spokesperson on podcasts. I’ve talked about data security and they’re going to pay me like three grand a month.

Payman Langroudi: Just [00:05:40] cares that.

Adrian Dray: It wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, this wasn’t.

Adrian Dray: Exactly on its competitors.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [00:05:45]

Adrian Dray: And, uh, and then we just did this and.

Payman Langroudi: They found you.

Adrian Dray: They found me, they paid. I didn’t [00:05:50] go on one podcast, not one, right? They just they never set them up. Um and [00:05:55] but that helped me just to get back on my feet. And then I went, then I went into banking. Right. And I just kept my foot in [00:06:00] dentistry, kept my foot in dentistry. But I, I see in the groups and I saw then that [00:06:05] this product that was being used, this white label product, people were finding out it was white [00:06:10] labelled. And then they’re saying, well, why aren’t we just going straight to the company and just do it ourselves, [00:06:15] which they started to do. So the individual who sort of ripped off this idea, um, [00:06:20] he then scrambled, had to build his own product. And it was at that time I [00:06:25] realised, I know that building your own product is really hard. It’s [00:06:30] really tough to get it right. You can say made for dentists by dentists all the livelong [00:06:35] day. But if it doesn’t work right and it’s not continuously innovated, it’s there.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:06:40] you feel like you dodged a bullet in a way, because.

Adrian Dray: I feel like I dodged and learned a massive lesson that [00:06:45] if I did want to get into the software game, and it’s even makes even more sense now, [00:06:50] AI is the way it is that you need to have a big team behind you. [00:06:55] There has to be a huge vision that’s there because you know we have all something in common. [00:07:00] We deeply love dentistry. We love helping dental practice owners in [00:07:05] multiple ways. Some ways, I know Payman that you have done that. No one knows, right? Secretly have helped people [00:07:10] and I’ve done the same, done the same thing. And you, you [00:07:15] need to make sure that what you are bringing in, maybe it won’t be so great to begin with, but you’re not [00:07:20] you’re not putting people in a really bad position and you are really [00:07:25] fighting for and championing them. So now comes to the care stack bit in [00:07:30] 2022, I think it was late [00:07:35] 2022. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The post Covid boom, the post-COVID boom.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a beautiful [00:07:40] era.

Adrian Dray: Actually, it’s 2023 now. I’m thinking of it. Yeah. It was. [00:07:45] When did you join us?

Kautham Haran: 2020 424 yeah.

Adrian Dray: It was 2023. So [00:07:50] 2023, I, um, I get this message from a mutual friend, a mutual, [00:07:55] a mutual friend, someone from the US who said there’s a, there’s a VP from [00:08:00] Straumann and the CEO of a cloud based practice management [00:08:05] system that’s coming to the UK are going to be in London on the weekend, and [00:08:10] the CEO wants ten dentists to be around a table to [00:08:15] show them this product, this cloud based practice management system. And [00:08:20] can you help me get those ten dentists? I’ll make it worth your while. And I said, [00:08:25] don’t pay me. I just want to be in the room. I want to be in the room. Right. [00:08:30] Um, because I have my background being a data protection [00:08:35] officer at my dentist, I’ve seen all these software providers, right, come to me [00:08:40] and they go, oh, we’re 100% GDPR compliant. You know, it’s like not even the ICO is 100% [00:08:45] GDPR compliant. Right? So I’m just, I’m used to all these kind of crappy answers and stuff. Like, I want to see [00:08:50] what these guys have got. I was, I was just intrigued by it. Yeah. And I sat inside their presentation [00:08:55] and I watched the faces of the other, the other dentists around the table. [00:09:00] And they were really intrigued. And I thought, there’s something here.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:05] so and did you get out of your compliance brain because, okay, compliance [00:09:10] is 1/20 of the product. Yeah. At that point, did you start thinking [00:09:15] product rather than how compliant is this product?

Adrian Dray: It’s a very good question [00:09:20] because my initial thought was, if I’m going to monetise this relationship, [00:09:25] I might be able to help with their GDPR position. When I saw that this this product [00:09:30] and the features it has available could help grow practices, well, [00:09:35] compliance and growth are like they repel each other, right? So [00:09:40] I’m like, if I’m going to help them, the GDPR bit is going right to one side, right. And I’m [00:09:45] just going to look at the growth side of things. Um, and that was [00:09:50] certainly that is the bit that inspired me. So I said to Abby, the CEO, and [00:09:55] for anyone who’s met Abby, he is a peculiar character. He’s a lovely [00:10:00] bloke. Um, uh, but he’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Adrian Dray: Just very. And you never forget [00:10:05] the first time you meet Abby. Yeah. Right. Um, and we ended up having. We haven’t having [00:10:10] having a double shot of Laphroaig right at the end of this meeting. And I remember him [00:10:15] just putting his hand on my shoulder. He goes, Adrian, I think we’re going to be working with each other somehow if we [00:10:20] launch this in the UK. So I did about ten months worth of um, consultancy [00:10:25] with them for free. Right. Just to see how far they would get. And [00:10:30] that’s, that’s, that’s when, that’s when we launched, we took our first practices live and, uh, [00:10:35] it was crazy. There were moments where I just thought, why on earth [00:10:40] did I give up my comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:10:45] because I was experiencing stressful moments [00:10:50] of a Start-Up, which I’ve never been in. I’ve never felt before. Um, [00:10:55] and we got through and, and those first three months, but it was clear. [00:11:00] It was clear at that point, I’m more on the demand generation, the creative [00:11:05] side. I am not good at operations. I can I can autosum [00:11:10] in Excel. That’s the limit of my Excel abilities.

Kautham Haran: Considering [00:11:15] you called it Autosum, I can tell. Is it not called that? What’s it called? It’s just called [00:11:20] sum. Is it a proper.

Payman Langroudi: Proper techie.

Kautham Haran: There.

Adrian Dray: Um, and then, you know, enters [00:11:25] enters Cal in into this as we’re starting to build our name, we’re starting to bring practices [00:11:30] on. And, you know, we lose one of our very first practices is, oh my goodness, what’s going on? [00:11:35] Um, and then we, we hear about, we hear about Cal. So we [00:11:40] hear about Cal working at one of the practices, one of the early practices that we take on, and this is early [00:11:45] 2020 for.

Payman Langroudi: Working at the practice.

Kautham Haran: Well, I was it was actually a friend’s practice. So [00:11:50] two of my they were my, you know, my best man at my wedding. They’re both, um, [00:11:55] dentists. They both have their own practices in London and um, I’ve, I’ve [00:12:00] listened to them talk about teeth since I think I was about 13 years old. You can imagine that dinner, there’s three of us [00:12:05] there and all they’re talking about is teeth because they’re dentists, they love their passion. And that’s what they’re that’s what they’re into. Me, [00:12:10] myself, I’ve got a fintech background. So straight out of university, co-founded a [00:12:15] peer to peer invoice finance company. Um, I did that for about eight years. So I’ve always been in that [00:12:20] Start-Up mode, not really corporate and understanding it from a kind of different viewpoint. [00:12:25] What did you study? I did maths and economics at university. We spun out of the [00:12:30] University of Warwick’s incubator program, so even they had belief in our business and things like that. [00:12:35] So.

Payman Langroudi: So in university you started this.

Kautham Haran: So in our final year, so didn’t do the kind of traditional [00:12:40] route that lots of people off our course normally do going into banking and those kind of things. So slightly different and enjoyed [00:12:45] that start up thrill. And I think, you know, like many dentists and business [00:12:50] owners here, you know, having your own Start-Up and doing it in that manner, the lows [00:12:55] are incredibly low, the highs are high. But bloody hell, when you’re sat there thinking, how am I going to pay staff? [00:13:00] And you know, those staff have mortgages, rent and stuff like this. You really do realise, you know [00:13:05] what struggle is in those kind of moments. I mean, obviously there’s much bigger struggles than life, but from a [00:13:10] business standpoint, I think that really taught me a lot. And then, you know, after I left that Start-Up [00:13:15] was looking to, you know, help my friends, you know, who was just set up his practice. [00:13:20] And I thought, I’ve got a bit of an ops head, as Adrian was saying, and I know these guys are good [00:13:25] clinically, but anything I could do to kind of help them. And in that time, I think he [00:13:30] was the first customer of voice tech, I think at the time.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, it must be the fifth, [00:13:35] fifth practice. Yeah.

Kautham Haran: And I remember going and being sitting [00:13:40] in his practice and learning it before, uh, deep Patel. Doctor Patel, I [00:13:45] guess in one Dental. So he’s got, uh, he’s just opened up his second practice, actually in Kensington. So shout out to [00:13:50] deep. He’s doing very well. And, um, when I, you know, typically [00:13:55] the process is someone from Csat comes down, teaches you how to use the software and all of that. Before they’d sent someone [00:14:00] down there, I quite figured out what we needed to, to be done and then met the third [00:14:05] of our trio, Shamanth, who’s kind of head of UK product at the time now our head of customer success. [00:14:10] And I said, oh, interesting. And then I think at that point.

Adrian Dray: I get a couple of calls, right? [00:14:15] So I get a call from from Kirsty, uh, who heads up our training now.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your official [00:14:20] title?

Adrian Dray: Who knows? Abbey’s butler. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like country [00:14:25] manager? Are you that.

Adrian Dray: No no no no, I’m well, officially I’m the director of [00:14:30] partnerships. I think I direct probably about one partnership.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Adrian Dray: I’m director of demand [00:14:35] generation. I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s you don’t have an official.

Adrian Dray: I kind of just fit in basically. [00:14:40] Um, uh, but yeah, I, I don’t, I’m the, what’s actually really lovely just to jump, [00:14:45] just sign on, on the conversation we’re having with Cal. But, uh, we’ve had like [00:14:50] general managers, country managers in, in our team, it hasn’t really worked out well. [00:14:55] And we found that actually having this trio of Cal Shamanth and I [00:15:00] works really well and we’ve become like brothers.

Payman Langroudi: But what is that implementation? [00:15:05] Yeah, marketing.

Adrian Dray: Marketing.

Payman Langroudi: And operations.

Adrian Dray: Um, customer success. [00:15:10]

Kautham Haran: Customer before he was product. Now it’s customer success. So it’s kind of the chain kind [00:15:15] of goes from Adrian to myself to Charlotte. Yeah. So between the three of us, I think as Adrian’s [00:15:20] mentioned, it’s, it’s a peculiar situation. I don’t think you often see a trio like us without someone [00:15:25] necessarily on top of us. Um, but I think exactly what you’ve said.

Adrian Dray: It has [00:15:30] radical, radical candour there. And I think actually that’s probably what’s played in quite well because at [00:15:35] this time, right. This is early.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not his boss?

Adrian Dray: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: You feel like you’re equals? Yes. And [00:15:40] the other guys? Yes.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And there is no. No one above you.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think none [00:15:45] of us want the role. I think as well, that’s probably also all of us are [00:15:50] out there.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an opening there for someone.

Adrian Dray: Without.

Payman Langroudi: Responsibility.

Adrian Dray: Yeah I [00:15:55] think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I, can I, can I get back to you? What’s something that interests me, right, is, you know, the [00:16:00] notion of your biggest strength is your biggest weakness also.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That, [00:16:05] you know, the way you gave up your software.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You could call that your biggest [00:16:10] weakness in a way, because, you know, it was an outcome you didn’t enjoy. But [00:16:15] the way that you said, I’ll work for free or I’ll come, I’ll turn up to this meeting. You don’t need to pay me. It’s [00:16:20] a similar, similar skill, similar sort of trait. And that’s one of the biggest [00:16:25] strengths someone can have to say, I’m so excited about something. Don’t even pay me, you know, [00:16:30] and you know, the what works in life for you is, is going to be [00:16:35] a combination of the good stuff that comes out of your biggest strength. [00:16:40] And, and the bad stuff that comes out of your biggest strength.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I’ve probably become a little bit wiser [00:16:45] to it now. And it actually all comes down to.

Payman Langroudi: Harder, harder.

Adrian Dray: Harder. Yeah. Um, [00:16:50] but I think that it comes down for me having a real interest in the etymology or [00:16:55] the history of the word opportunity. So opportunity is, is, comes [00:17:00] from two Latin words and it goes right back to, uh, Mediterranean [00:17:05] maritime situation where you’ve got this old vessel that’s just on [00:17:10] the flat water. Maybe it’s just come out of a horrible storm. All the sailors [00:17:15] have got scurvy. Whatever it is, they just want to go home, right? They just want to go home. And home for [00:17:20] one. Might be just seeing these family. Home for another is like going to the tavern and having a knees up, right? Home [00:17:25] for the captain is like, let’s get this flipping cargo off so I can get paid. Yeah, [00:17:30] yeah. Right. So there’s, there’s always this thing of like, I need to get, get home. So what [00:17:35] would happen? Back in those times? I didn’t have any motors. Of course they’re relying on the trade winds. And [00:17:40] if you can just picture the scene where you’ve got this old vessel with [00:17:45] really upset and discouraged sailors who are on this flat water, who just want to go home brews [00:17:50] and bash the pieces. They start, they start feeling a wind, [00:17:55] right? That’s coming through. They don’t know if that’s the next storm or whether that’s going to be the trade wind. So [00:18:00] the navigator would say something like Tempest Opportuneness and Tempest [00:18:05] Opportuneness means well, actually look at opportunities. Two words OP means [00:18:10] going towards and port means port or harbour. So he’s effectively saying [00:18:15] this is the moment, this is the wind that will take us home.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe [00:18:20] right.

Adrian Dray: But the thing is, is that the navigator, right? Who’s calling that? He’s got [00:18:25] a big responsibility. He’s like, right, let the flipping sails down. Now this is the this is the wind that will [00:18:30] take us home. Yeah. And so when I have these moments that come up, I’ve [00:18:35] probably become a bit of a sharper navigator to think, yes, this is the [00:18:40] opportunity here, and that you have to be in the situation where you’re [00:18:45] doing, which creates momentum, which then helps you catch that [00:18:50] opportunity. So you’re right. I saw an opportunity there [00:18:55] when I got out of out of Covid hospital, and it didn’t go [00:19:00] my way, so to speak, but it certainly helped me realise [00:19:05] a much greater opportunity that’s here. And I think also the way that we recognise [00:19:10] hiring cow. So just go back to the second half of that story. I get [00:19:15] a phone call from Kirsty who’s saying I won’t do Kirsty Scottish accent because you’ll [00:19:20] kill me. Um, but she’s basically saying this guy cow is. He’s totally getting care [00:19:25] stack. He’s like a wizard with it. Shamanth calls me, he’s like, this guy’s great. I’m [00:19:30] with Abbey in London and I was talking to Abbey. It’s like, let’s let’s [00:19:35] meet him. Let’s meet him. So we’re at the Cinnamon Club. Um, you know, in town. Yeah. Indian [00:19:40] place. And it’s got little, little cocktail bar downstairs, and, uh, we arranged to meet Cao [00:19:45] Cao comes down and. And, uh, we get him a drink, and [00:19:50] it’s his first time. First time meeting Abbey as well. Um, but Abbey had a drink, so he was, [00:19:55] he was a bit more loosened up compared to when I first met him. Um, and I [00:20:00] think within 15 minutes we decided we want to hire Cao. Right.

Kautham Haran: Uh, [00:20:05] do you know what I’ve actually heard? I’ve heard that you’d made that decision earlier that day because you went to demo. [00:20:10] My other, uh, best man obeyed who runs W Dental um, in Twickenham [00:20:15] and now in Tooting. He had told me that when you had gone to see him, that you guys had potentially made the decision [00:20:20] to hire. And I thought, bloody hell, why didn’t you tell me that before I. Asked [00:20:25] for a bit more if I if I’d known that was going to be the case. [00:20:30]

Adrian Dray: That’s why we didn’t tell you. But but then, you know, Cal, [00:20:35] and we we said, look, we we’re not gonna we’re not gonna put you in the role of director straight away. Um, [00:20:40] but we’re going to just see how you sort of, you know, grapple [00:20:45] with this roller coaster that we have at the moment with a new product and we’re realising things that [00:20:50] are not working the way it should do for a UK business and all this kind of stuff. Um, but [00:20:55] there was the foundation of that absolute radical transparency [00:21:00] that, that we, that we were developing in those early days, which have even [00:21:05] with everything else, which may be chaotic at times. That’s our anchor, right? The [00:21:10] three of us with Shamanth as well. Um, to just be ever so [00:21:15] up front with each other. And if there’s a moment of ego, you, [00:21:20] you got to leave the room. And I mean, often I’m told go to [00:21:25] Stockholm, right? Go to go on holiday. Chill out for a couple of days, then come back and [00:21:30] I feel a little bit better. But yeah, but that’s um, if you don’t mind me [00:21:35] hijacking the second half of your story.

Kautham Haran: I do think, I think at that [00:21:40] time, probably when I was helping my friend out, I was looking for, you know, different roles and trying to see what kind of fits, I think with [00:21:45] care Stack when it came along, you know, when you’re young, you can do a Start-Up with [00:21:50] quite low risk. I think you don’t necessarily have a family, those kind of other things. As you get a bit older, [00:21:55] you have to take those risks on, um, and make that decision. But with Care Stack, I think the way it was, [00:22:00] it’s an established company launching a new market. It’s effectively the best of both. You can [00:22:05] kind of have your fast, agile hats on to try and change things almost daily, [00:22:10] weekly, which I tell you my team hate because of how fast I want to iterate and make sure [00:22:15] things are better. But then you’ve also got a bit more security in the company itself, because you can see what it’s done, where it’s [00:22:20] going.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not going to be a cash crisis the day after tomorrow.

Kautham Haran: Exactly that. So I think naturally, in my journey of where [00:22:25] I was, I think guess that came at a perfect opportunity. And for me then, you know, [00:22:30] when you’re saying about ego, I think I personally had a bit of an ego that there’s no way I’m not going [00:22:35] to make this work because how rare is it to find that kind of opportunity where those things align? So in [00:22:40] my head, it was quite clear what I wanted to do and how we would make this work. [00:22:45] And I think also naturally, I think when I first spoke to you, Adrian, I could see between yourself and Shamanth Shamanth [00:22:50] being more technical yourself.

Adrian Dray: Obviously not.

Kautham Haran: I could see myself fitting [00:22:55] directly in the middle, and I think that was the first thing I noticed within about ten, 15 minutes of talking to you. And [00:23:00] I think then, you know, some things are meant to be, so to speak, and I think it did [00:23:05] work well.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, look, considering how, you know, it wasn’t very long, long ago [00:23:10] when all this happened. Right. What did you say? 22, 23?

Adrian Dray: Uh, when we hired him.

Kautham Haran: 2024 [00:23:15] yeah, I’ve been with.

Adrian Dray: The company officially as an employed person [00:23:20] for two years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing because like, look, if Kiyosaki has only been around 2 or 3 [00:23:25] years. It feels like it’s been around a lot longer than that. Yeah. And that well done by, you [00:23:30] know, getting into people’s heads in a way, um, with, with the messaging [00:23:35] and then you’ve got the product itself. What kind of, I don’t understand [00:23:40] about the amount of effort that [00:23:45] Abbey is putting into the UK is that it’s a massive change, [00:23:50] right? You’ve got regulatory differences, you’ve got insurance differences, you’ve got differences. Yeah. [00:23:55] And the market size of the UK is like the same as Oregon. Yeah. [00:24:00] Or something. So is there an imperative that’s like is, [00:24:05] is breaking through the UK to do with more than the [00:24:10] income that the UK will bring.

Adrian Dray: I it’s a very good question [00:24:15] and I think you probably put it in the best, best way that I’ve ever, ever heard of it because it doesn’t make [00:24:20] on paper. It doesn’t make sense. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the amount of, of, of input [00:24:25] from America, you know, it’s a lot.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, absolutely. The size of the markets. Yeah. The difference in the size [00:24:30] is huge.

Adrian Dray: And there’s like 80 plus practice management systems that you can choose from in the US. Right. [00:24:35] Right. In the in the UK is about 12.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Adrian Dray: Right. Maybe 14. [00:24:40] Um so the question comes down to why [00:24:45] on earth haven’t other US systems tried to come to the UK and why [00:24:50] did castac. Right. That’s, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With such force.

Adrian Dray: With such force. [00:24:55] The the Henry Shine one have tried to bring [00:25:00] in a. Before they purchased Dentali did try to bring in a cloud based [00:25:05] system. Um and it didn’t work out for them for lots of different reasons. [00:25:10] I think from what I’ve heard, one of the big reasons is because of the development [00:25:15] required around the NHS side of things, which we know is difficult. Yeah. Um, if I got that [00:25:20] wrong, please don’t send me a cease and desist.

Payman Langroudi: So Dental is native [00:25:25] UK, right? So yeah, so NHS is.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Um James um I’ve seen [00:25:30] him from afar. But yeah, the founder is I think, I believe he’s his dad is a dentist and they, [00:25:35] they, they built that from which is incredible journey. I mean I’ve got, I give him a lot of Dental.

Payman Langroudi: He hasn’t got a US [00:25:40] presence.

Adrian Dray: No. I think there’s Canada and Australia now. They’re they’re [00:25:45] moving. Interesting. Yeah. Um so they, you know, there, there has been attempts to bring [00:25:50] in US systems here, but most of them have been, you know, home-grown. Um [00:25:55] and, you know, to their, to their credit, they’ve done [00:26:00] very well to navigate the bureaucracy around the NHS, which can be extremely [00:26:05] frustrating sometimes and good on them. And we realise how difficult that [00:26:10] was going going to be. And there was a lot of eating of humble pie. Payman. [00:26:15] Right. You’ve got hundreds of engineers and we’re thinking, how hard can it be? Right [00:26:20] and it and it is hard. So, um, but [00:26:25] we, we had already at the point where we became ready for NHS, which [00:26:30] what we say comfortably mid last year that we were ready [00:26:35] after beta practices, but by the time we got there, we’d already taken 10% [00:26:40] of the private only market in England. Well right. So there was [00:26:45] squat practices now have started to favour care stack, um for [00:26:50] lots of different reasons. And they’re doing really well with it. Um and then [00:26:55] when you have this kind of momentum, plus you’re building the team and we’re getting this sort [00:27:00] of notoriety that even though there’s 14 systems, when you look at, you know, dentists [00:27:05] for dentists and other Facebook groups, it’s usually care stack versus another [00:27:10] large name, right? So that’s even though we have probably got the least [00:27:15] number of practices compared to top five, we have got the most mental like monopoly. [00:27:20] Had we not been able to do that, I don’t think we would have been. We would still [00:27:25] be here. That’s my personal opinion. That’s not that’s not a statement on behalf of Care Stack.

Adrian Dray: But [00:27:30] but I realise that the the amount of momentum that we’ve had to pick up an investment [00:27:35] that’s there. Now, to answer the second part of your question, what’s the kind [00:27:40] of the bigger plan or is there a bigger plan? You see, the, the one [00:27:45] thing that that Abby told me the first time I met him is that like, the biggest mistake you can make [00:27:50] is thinking that care Stack is just a practice management system company. You see a lot [00:27:55] of the big companies in the world, for example, Henry Schein have started started with distribution. [00:28:00] They’re a cradle to grave organisation. They started with distribution and now [00:28:05] they’ve gone into everything else. You can buy and sell your practice through Henry Schein. You can [00:28:10] buy technology products and this kind of stuff. We all know the importance of data now. [00:28:15] So Really starting off from a software perspective, particularly in this new technological [00:28:20] era that we’re in, allows an organisation like ours [00:28:25] to move into those other areas. So for example, we have telephony. Now we [00:28:30] have other arms like payment gateways and other offerings [00:28:35] which are now being grown in the US that potentially might come here in the UK. [00:28:40] Some of them interact with the PMS, some of them not [00:28:45] so much. Right. But it means that you start from this technology foundation [00:28:50] and we we’re not thinking, oh, how, how are we going to what are we going to like in the next couple of years? We’re thinking [00:28:55] about what we look like in the next 15, 25, 50 years. And, and [00:29:00] having that technology cornerstone puts you in a much better, much better [00:29:05] position because you come from a position of data.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So look, I mean, sacs known [00:29:10] for having a lot of features, right? And you know what? You you must know in software, [00:29:15] there must be a name for the hassle of switching platforms.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Change management. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So the last thing a dentist wants is to have eight different software’s to, [00:29:25] to manage. And stack has a bunch of it within it. Right. But that doesn’t answer [00:29:30] my question at all. Maybe you’re not aware of what’s the reason that [00:29:35] the company in the US would put so much resource into one market [00:29:40] as small as the UK? Maybe. Don’t know.

Adrian Dray: Oh yeah. Sorry, I thought I did answer [00:29:45] that. I think we got to remember that we’ve got, um, one of our [00:29:50] largest minority shareholders is Straumann as well. Okay. So you know, [00:29:55] there is there has been interest that is there because Straumann is very big [00:30:00] internationally, but particularly in the UK as well. Um, and [00:30:05] what we recognised is that with a lot of the practice management systems [00:30:10] that are available in the UK, not many of them. In fact, [00:30:15] I don’t think any of them have been purpose built for DSOs, for Dental groups. [00:30:20] Csec has. So when you’re able to provide [00:30:25] that as a choice, as an offering to Dental groups, which means that no longer [00:30:30] are they dealing with their systems across their estate and having to make changes on an individual [00:30:35] basis that now they can add add a NHS contract in minutes, rather [00:30:40] than it taking hours or sometimes weeks asking someone else to. They need to update their [00:30:45] codes across the whole group. They want to change their pricing. They want [00:30:50] to do certain campaigns for pockets of the estate. They can do this super quickly. [00:30:55] And also the reporting across the group is also super, super [00:31:00] easy.

Payman Langroudi: The dashboards makes it obvious the number of sites and all of that.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. I [00:31:05] mean, you’re probably going to correct everything I said.

Kautham Haran: No. All the all the data points that you can get out [00:31:10] of care stack as well, not just necessarily reporting within the PMS itself, but also taking that out [00:31:15] and building your own data warehouses. All of that functionality is there. So I think that [00:31:20] is the core point for us. I think as a company, seeing that opportunity in [00:31:25] the UK market, considering what the other providers necessarily weren’t attacking vigorously [00:31:30] potentially, and also thinking probably with a level of naivety that, oh, [00:31:35] if we’ve got a UK English product, let’s say in the US, dentistry in the UK, [00:31:40] can we make it, you know, map it over? I think the two things combined probably then did attack that [00:31:45] and then we realised what are our strengths in the US. Exactly what Adrian saying and knowing all those things. There’s [00:31:50] definitely opportunity here. So I think that’s that’s core reason.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the positioning in [00:31:55] the US like as far as you know, are they are they out of those 50 [00:32:00] systems as far as uptake, where’s care stack?

Adrian Dray: I don’t know where they are in its [00:32:05] specific positioning, but what I would say is how.

Payman Langroudi: Old is care stack in the US.

Adrian Dray: Ten [00:32:10] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, that’s all right. Yeah. It’s all very new.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So they are there. I [00:32:15] think one of the fastest growing. Practice management systems that are out there. Um, and [00:32:20] again, it’s the same thing. It’s, it’s the ability to have all of your main core [00:32:25] features that typically you would pay another software provider, which doesn’t speak to, even though it says [00:32:30] it integrates, it doesn’t do it properly, but having it all in one place makes life a [00:32:35] lot easier.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through the top 3 or 4 things. So you said, um, you know, [00:32:40] DSOs reporting. Yeah. What else? What else? What else is under the bonnet that isn’t in [00:32:45] most other systems.

Kautham Haran: I mean, I think the core thing is the functionality to be able to, let’s say a DSO [00:32:50] is split across the country, as in you would have certain area or, you know, district managers, let’s [00:32:55] say someone’s responsible for northeast, that kind of splitting up of that data where you don’t see it all under one, and [00:33:00] you could group it all into those kind of things. Oh that’s cool. So from that side, I think, you know, giving those [00:33:05] DSOs that kind of opportunity to do so it’s interesting where I think the challenge for a PMS provider [00:33:10] is always, you’ve got management who look at one thing, but you’ve also got clinicians who only care [00:33:15] about another thing and front of house, who probably care about even less, or something completely [00:33:20] different, and catering to all of them in one place while doing all of those things. You know, how [00:33:25] do you make a complex system that gives the right person all the data points, but then let [00:33:30] it be easy enough that someone who doesn’t care is just there to do their job, doesn’t care about the running, doesn’t [00:33:35] do all those things. How do you make all of those things manage? So that’s a very delicate balance.

Kautham Haran: And then [00:33:40] creating the ecosystem, as Adrian saying, if everything plugs into each other, they all talk to each other. [00:33:45] You then work out from change management, management perspective. That’s kind of what our teams [00:33:50] do is to make sure, how do you give each of those individual teams a benefit? Because at the end of the day, why [00:33:55] else are they moving if you can’t show value? Value is shown in time or money, right? For [00:34:00] from our perspective. So even then, even though fine, you could do the reporting side [00:34:05] for the DSO. But if you then have the little bits working, that then all compounds up [00:34:10] because if you’re then saving front of house two hours per day, because they don’t need to look at typing [00:34:15] call recordings or something like this. They then that then gives that front of House member more time [00:34:20] to call up patients, fill the diary, and then that leads to more revenue elsewhere. So I think naturally, [00:34:25] just the way that case that’s been built kind of allows everything from the top [00:34:30] down. And even looking at it from bottom up both ways kind of functions in a good way.

Adrian Dray: So I think from a time and [00:34:35] money perspective as well, one of the features that we have got is the ability for a practice to [00:34:40] manage their own plan within the system. So what [00:34:45] the current behaviour is, is that you go to a third party, um, they deal with the [00:34:50] direct debits and the management, all this kind of thing. The problem for practices is a, [00:34:55] a cost because they’re having to pay a fee for that. The, the second [00:35:00] thing is being able to consolidate and understand the data and whether [00:35:05] this patient is still paying for that and they’ve just cancelled, but they’ve just booked in a hygiene like [00:35:10] that sort of thing. So with Care Stark’s own plans, the [00:35:15] patient can sign up in the chair as quickly as they sign [00:35:20] up for Netflix. And now the practice is able to understand [00:35:25] the usage of that plan. They can see whether the patient has cancelled. They can try again, [00:35:30] they can reach out, and they can have tailored plans to certain types [00:35:35] of situations. So you could have a minimum or essentials plan.

Payman Langroudi: We’re talking [00:35:40] about capitation, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Or you can have a specific plan that’s for implant patients, for [00:35:45] example, which is seen as a value a value add. But what you’re able to do [00:35:50] now is you’re able to see, I’m sorry, a be able to, to get people on [00:35:55] board at speed. And B, you’ve got a cost saving. So one of our practices [00:36:00] up in the north west, um, I won’t give his figures but they’re very, very [00:36:05] impressive figures. But from from a squat practice in under [00:36:10] a year, he was able to get 800 people. And he’s mostly Invisalign. Right. [00:36:15] 800 people onto a plan that he has built within care stack, you know, in like, yeah, [00:36:20] ten, 10 or 11 months. So that’s brilliant. And it’s so quick. They come in for [00:36:25] their Invisalign. They have an amazing experience. We’ve got, you know, general dentists here. We’ve got a hygienist [00:36:30] here. Can we put you on the plan. Absolutely done.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:36:35] the plus side is all this optionality um [00:36:40] all singing, all dancing plan this that and the other, [00:36:45] the downside as I’m understanding it is that introduces complication. [00:36:50] And so what’s the issue? Like does that mean onboarding [00:36:55] harder with it?

Kautham Haran: I think onboarding is probably one of the hardest things [00:37:00] when you’re looking at it, because in general, a practice management software is the one place where [00:37:05] you do everything from payments, booking appointments, online appointments, all the kind of different [00:37:10] things charting, treatment, planning, all the different functions within a dental practice get funnelled [00:37:15] through a practice management software. Now getting everyone [00:37:20] to I mean, it’s a it’s a mammoth thing, right? And I think one of the things that we’re quite [00:37:25] open with, with our customers is it’s not going to be easy. And it’s whether [00:37:30] those practices that we’re working with are ready for that challenge or whether their teams are, um, I’m [00:37:35] not sales, I’m ops. So I’m realistic on, on, on how these kind of things work and [00:37:40] navigating that when you could have, if you’ve got someone who’s been in that practice, who’s been there for 30 [00:37:45] years on one system, how do you get that person to kind of shift over and understand why they’re [00:37:50] in it? Why are they doing this? What’s the benefit to them? How do you then explain that benefit [00:37:55] to that person, but also keep the same benefit to management and other people within that practice? So [00:38:00] it’s getting I think for me it’s quite interesting because I always talk about this a lot that [00:38:05] from a customer standpoint, the teams that are the most aligned with that vision, within that [00:38:10] practice is equal from the owners all the way down.

Kautham Haran: They’re actually the ones that handle the change [00:38:15] the best. Whereas if people are just coming in and you know, they’re just there to do their job 9 to 5, [00:38:20] they’re going to give you headaches. And that’s, that’s, that’s always a given in change [00:38:25] management. And so our team are trained on those kind of things. How do you how do you deal with those kind of people? How do [00:38:30] you talk to those people who bring down and probably bring some negative energy within it when they’re not happy? [00:38:35] How do we deal with them? How do you give them that kind of bit of TLC, to be honest, to get [00:38:40] them to see, okay, I can do this. Maybe I’m not meant to learn everything [00:38:45] in a in a week and we can learn this over a staggered period. And for us, it’s that [00:38:50] understanding of people that’s actually more important because once you know your audience, you then tailor [00:38:55] it in that different way. And trust me, that wasn’t something we knew that comes from experience as we have, [00:39:00] you know, all the different dental practices we worked with made up of composition, all these different compositions. [00:39:05] Um, and then you learn what works, um, how you train, how you do these different things. [00:39:10] So complexity is the hard bit.

Adrian Dray: And also how to prepare our teams. You know, you, you imagine [00:39:15] that they, I mean, our guys KAOS team are warriors, [00:39:20] right? That blood, sweat and tears that they put.

Payman Langroudi: The engineers.

Adrian Dray: Know this is the implementation. [00:39:25]

Kautham Haran: The.

Adrian Dray: Implementation, you know, and and we’ve got I mean, for example. Shreya. [00:39:30] Right. Shreya she, uh, she was a receptionist, what, two years ago? [00:39:35] Yeah, yeah. In a dental practice. Um, Abby did a demo at the practice, was so impressed by [00:39:40] the questions that she was asking, took the owner to one side and said, I’d like to hire [00:39:45] her. Right. Do I have your permission? We had to wait a little bit, but Shreya has gone, um, [00:39:50] from from being a very good receptionist to now, you know, basically [00:39:55] one of cows number two, right? Lead implementation person and [00:40:00] is when you meet her, one of the most sweetest, kindest people [00:40:05] you’ve ever met and has been, but is able to put up with so much like challenging [00:40:10] conversations because it’s hard, right? You, you, you really invest in your client [00:40:15] and then you’ve got some someone who can be obnoxious or ignorant or [00:40:20] whatever saying, well, yeah, the button’s not in the place where I had it on. So and so, [00:40:25] you know, take my take my eyes, but don’t take my SOE. Right. And it’s difficult. [00:40:30] So we have to kind of build those, those teams as well that don’t lose their empathy, [00:40:35] but still have a very, very thick skin.

Kautham Haran: The level of resilience needed [00:40:40] for that is, is honestly, I think, incredibly underrated. I think when you’re looking at change [00:40:45] management people, humans are averse to change just naturally. Yeah. Right. And then trying [00:40:50] to get through, smile through it and do that is incredibly difficult. And I think it is testament to my [00:40:55] team, Shreya and the others as well in the team. I mean, we’ve got X implementation [00:41:00] team members who have implementation experience and they’ve never had a job like this. Really? And they’ve explicitly said that to [00:41:05] me. It’s not like implementation in any other company they’re used to. Potentially implementing one customer [00:41:10] at a time. Whereas in K stack, you’re implementing ten simultaneously [00:41:15] at different levels of the process or different stages. But also because we’re a Start-Up, that process [00:41:20] is constantly evolving. So if you imagine it’s not a linear thing, it’s two dimensional. And [00:41:25] that is incredibly difficult to to do. And I think it’s kudos to the team and probably [00:41:30] the ethos of, of k stack itself that, you know, when I interview, I tell all of [00:41:35] them, this is going to be difficult work if this. And I tell them, you know, I’m [00:41:40] quite honest and open, I don’t want to see them here within two years from when they join, because [00:41:45] for me, they should be learning from everything and they should be pushing themselves to do more and more [00:41:50] and more, and that’s what they’re in it for.

Kautham Haran: I think building them up in that way, gaining [00:41:55] the resilience, how to fastly spot problems, how to iterate for customers, put them at number one, [00:42:00] two, three, and four, and then themselves, I think, then puts them in a position that if they then went [00:42:05] on to do any other thing, it’s that Start-Up mentality that then they can then take on probably [00:42:10] learning that from my own experience, that it sets them up in the right way for them to tackle [00:42:15] their futures in dentistry or in any other field that they want to, because they’ve dealt with the [00:42:20] pressures of probably care stack. And, you know, we have demanding customers, but, you [00:42:25] know, internal ethos of us of ours rather is, you know, doing [00:42:30] more for the customer than they pay us for. And therefore that, you know, takes a lot out of you. [00:42:35] Um, but I would say, you know, it gets to that point where I think, and I’ve had these kind [00:42:40] of conversations with them, you need to enjoy that thrill. You need to enjoy that pain, [00:42:45] so to speak. It’s a bit, it’s a, it’s a bit weird to say.

Adrian Dray: It’s like, stop trying to hit me and hit me. Right? [00:42:50]

Kautham Haran: It’s that it takes, it takes that because I think, you know, dentistry is fast [00:42:55] paced. There’s very fine margins, and making sure that we’re [00:43:00] giving the most to these customers is the most important thing. One small error from [00:43:05] our side could lead to a huge loss in revenue for the customer. And it’s not okay to just [00:43:10] say, oh, sorry, you know, we should be seeking the highest standards internally [00:43:15] to make sure it reflects the standards that they’ve got with their, you know, if they’ve got private patients that [00:43:20] they’re charging, you know, quite a decent whack for, you know, treatment plans, it’s as [00:43:25] a PMS provider, do we deserve that business? Well, we need to and to show that [00:43:30] we need to have that level of care and attention to detail that mistakes don’t, you know, [00:43:35] don’t slip through. So kudos to the team. I think it’s not not easy for sure. [00:43:40]

Adrian Dray: And we’ve never we’ve never built teams out like this before. You know.

Payman Langroudi: How many people did you have in your own fintech? [00:43:45]

Kautham Haran: Uh, at its peak we had about 15. But then we developed systems [00:43:50] that then meant you could reduce the team size.

Payman Langroudi: So were you on the up side in that business too?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [00:43:55] Same. But you know, in a Start-Up, you always end up wearing many hats. Probably. Why? When I joined, you [00:44:00] know, never done implementation before, but I knew that I tackled most of the things that I’ve tackled. [00:44:05] It’s been okay. And I thought building that’s the big thing for me that I’ve found [00:44:10] probably the most enjoyable. And what I’ve taken out the most from Care Stack is building teams. I think watching people like Shreya, [00:44:15] Fouad and the others, um, all kind of progress for me is that [00:44:20] kind of drives me now. I think building teams, you know, it’s that [00:44:25] ethos of if I go away or I’m not there, do they have the same standards that we’ve all set? [00:44:30] Probably from Abby to us to then the next level. And I think we’re all aligned from that [00:44:35] point. Because then if, Adrian, you went away for a couple of weeks, if I went away for a month. Then [00:44:40] other teams still doing the things to the same standard, which when [00:44:45] we first started, we know was never the case when we first joined Caius. So I think that’s [00:44:50] that’s.

Adrian Dray: Kudos to five day holiday in my first year.

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a continuous evolution, [00:44:55] isn’t it? That the way that you you’re going to go forward for the next you’re saying 25 [00:45:00] years. Yeah. Yeah. That that running of a business. Um, what it’s [00:45:05] interesting to me is that, you know, of course, wanting to be something and actually executing [00:45:10] on that thing are two totally different emotions, two different skills, [00:45:15] right? I’m definitely you need one before the other. Yeah. We want to give back more than we’re [00:45:20] getting. Sure. Right. But as the number grows, particularly as the number of customers grows, [00:45:25] that becomes harder and harder and harder to pull off.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think [00:45:30] where we were, I think, Adrian, you would agree on this. We we sold so fast. And [00:45:35] you know, like you said, Payman about it sounds like we’ve been around for a lot longer than two, three years. Yeah. And [00:45:40] then our operations kind of had to catch up, if I’m being honest. And I think catching up while you’ve got [00:45:45] team members. Yeah. While they’re, you know, they’re used to, you know, they’re used to being in much larger organisations [00:45:50] where on process happens. That’s it for about three, four years. You know, the [00:45:55] red tape and everything to change something. Whereas for us, it’s if we’ve done something wrong with the customer, we’ve [00:46:00] learned from it. Okay, that changes tomorrow for every other customer.

Payman Langroudi: What surprised you the [00:46:05] most about dentists or dentistry or dental practices? Because [00:46:10] you had your friends, you kind of knew.

Kautham Haran: Um, [00:46:15] for me, I think from the dentist [00:46:20] standpoint, I do think not enough of them put emphasis on their teams, which [00:46:25] surprised me because I’ve seen it. For example, maybe I’m biased with maybe [00:46:30] some of the practices that I saw early. Um, and I think for me, investing [00:46:35] in people now, obviously I’m biased based on what I was saying earlier about that’s kind of been [00:46:40] my drive recently, but I do think having the people within [00:46:45] the practice who are aligning your vision, You know, I’ve seen some practice owners who kind [00:46:50] of just do their bit. They’re used to being clinicians and individual contributors. So they’re the [00:46:55] ones the backbone of the practice. But as a business model that then doesn’t necessarily let them scale. Some [00:47:00] of them don’t want to. Right. I’m not saying that, but there are others that are frustrated that their team aren’t [00:47:05] doing the same things or believing in it the same way they are, but they don’t have shares [00:47:10] in the business. Why should they? So what is it you’re giving to your team members to let them see the vision that [00:47:15] you have? What’s the trade off? You know, I use an example where it’s like, [00:47:20] you know, if you’re trying to motivate your team and trying to bring them, you know, if they hit certain targets, [00:47:25] do you take them to Nando’s or if they smash them, do you take them to Nobu? Right. Those kind [00:47:30] of differences is, does that come through and flow through to the teams all throughout, or is it just a job for them? [00:47:35] Because in my opinion, if it is just a job for them, um, for certain members within [00:47:40] the team, it’s difficult then for you to step away from it and to scale that. So I think [00:47:45] that’s definitely something that for me, I was more surprised at, I think, uh, when speaking [00:47:50] about it with some practice owners, I think there’s, they’ve never really seen it that way, [00:47:55] which I found quite interesting. Um, I think they’re more a.

Payman Langroudi: Component of that is career progression within a dental [00:48:00] practice. Some are very good at it, but some would rather have teams. I mean, you said I want [00:48:05] you not to be here in two years time. Some would rather have the kind of person who’s not [00:48:10] interested in progression. And and so that leads to that [00:48:15] same sort of atmosphere of, you know, why should I now move, you know, the kind of person who’s not [00:48:20] interested in progressing and if and if you employ for that. Yeah. You know, [00:48:25] I come across dentists, you must too, right. They want a nurse who’s just going to be there and be the nurse. [00:48:30]

Kautham Haran: That’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an easy life.

Kautham Haran: I think those are two different paths, though. And in my [00:48:35] opinion, if you’re going down that path where you’re trying to build a team with people who aren’t that interested [00:48:40] in improving themselves or just doing that, that kind of job, your systems should be in place [00:48:45] to make sure things are, for example, checklist based because these people aren’t going to sit there and have that attention to [00:48:50] detail because they don’t really care. So your business can go down two different paths. But from an operations standpoint, [00:48:55] you as the leaders within that practice, you should understand the profile of that individual when you’re hiring them, [00:49:00] because otherwise what you’ve got is that turnover where a front of house team member leaves, and then [00:49:05] you’re hiring locums, and then your costs are going up, but maybe correctly identifying [00:49:10] those individuals so that, okay, I can, if this person isn’t interested [00:49:15] in improving, how can I get it where I get a new person in quite relatively easily. Low barrier [00:49:20] to entry, they can pick up the job really easily. That means you need the systems in place to make [00:49:25] sure that person hits the ground running, and you don’t have a huge training period, which then is a drag on your operations [00:49:30] and your finances.

Adrian Dray: Also, I think if you if you’re going to hire either all of your team [00:49:35] or part of your team on that basis of, I just want a nurse to be a nurse, I just want a receptionist [00:49:40] to be a receptionist. Then don’t give too much weight of their to [00:49:45] their opinion for big changes. Mhm. Because that’s what we that we see. [00:49:50] And don’t get me wrong, I love Dental nurses, I love reception, I love all members of the team. [00:49:55] Right. But when you’re doing this big kind of change, you shouldn’t be thinking, oh, they’re going to kick off [00:50:00] and they’re going to get really upset. I was like, well, you’ve decided you just wanted them to fulfil that particular [00:50:05] role. And if they can’t deal with this change, you, you feel that in the short and maybe [00:50:10] most importantly, the long term, that’s going to have a material impact onto your business, [00:50:15] then you need to get people in that position that can do the job, but [00:50:20] that align with your vision and don’t give you hassle for it because what’s the point?

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:50:25] true, very true. Um, I want to move on to well, [00:50:30] before we move any further, what’s the worst thing about care stack software about. [00:50:35]

Kautham Haran: Care stack as a company or.

Payman Langroudi: Software software.

Kautham Haran: Software itself. [00:50:40] I think one thing that I’ve [00:50:45] noticed about Sestak is in our emphasis to listen [00:50:50] to customers and make sure everyone’s got a voice. [00:50:55] I think there are certain things that you can see within our product that we’ve tried to cater to potentially [00:51:00] too many people in the past, too many different, not everywhere, but in certain places. [00:51:05] I think sometimes when you think about like an iPhone, you know, it is the way it is, right? [00:51:10] And do we believe that our product is built in that way that we want it to, because [00:51:15] we know the way we’ve done it gives value to our customers. I think that’s probably something for me, myself, [00:51:20] looking at our software, I can see where it probably went in early days. We maybe [00:51:25] to land in a market, you do need to kind of have that flexibility. [00:51:30] So I think that’s definitely one thing. Maybe. And from an onboarding standpoint, if there’s [00:51:35] too many different ways of doing something, on the one hand, it’s flexibility. So you can cater for more people. [00:51:40] But on the other hand.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more complication.

Kautham Haran: Exactly.

Adrian Dray: It’s the problem of the plenty. Yes, [00:51:45] that’s that’s the the problem we have. And there are multiple ways to do things. [00:51:50] And if you’re trying to do a particular type of task, you might think [00:51:55] there’s way too many clicks to do this. But actually there’s another way that’s a lot quicker. But [00:52:00] we’ve, we’ve had to present the button [00:52:05] setup, whatever you want to call it, the UI in a way that that is able to [00:52:10] accommodate certain types of users who have come from a certain type of business. Because if [00:52:15] you ask most, most dentists on, on, on dentists, for dentists, and you said, [00:52:20] do you want so exactly as it is, but in the cloud, majority of them say, yes, [00:52:25] just minimum, just put that in the cloud.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kautham Haran: But the thing is that happened [00:52:30] a lot. Yeah, when we first started.

Adrian Dray: But the reality is, is, is the way [00:52:35] that. So which is a good system, don’t get me wrong, but the way the SSO is set up, is [00:52:40] that the right way for the modern modern future dental practice? And [00:52:45] the reality is most people won’t be able to give a yes or no answer [00:52:50] to that. They don’t know. They just say, well, I just don’t like change. But you do like [00:52:55] innovation. Yeah, I like innovation. Changing innovation is the same thing. It’s just that [00:53:00] we have change is painful. Innovation is fluffy, but it’s the same process. [00:53:05] So I think that that is one of the things that we’ve in our in our efforts to be [00:53:10] attentive, right, and accommodating. We haven’t shot ourselves in [00:53:15] the foot. We’ve just had to adapt in the way that we develop in the future. [00:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: But there are trade offs, aren’t there? There are trade offs. It’s difficult to be the best product and [00:53:25] the cheapest, you know, things like that. Very obvious trade offs. Yeah. And here we are with this [00:53:30] particular trade off. Yeah. Well I think you’ll find I mean one thing you might not be aware of in [00:53:35] dental in general, is that the sort of huge [00:53:40] barriers to entry in every way? So, you know, [00:53:45] we’ve got regulatory issues. You’ve got regulatory issues obviously with data. Um, [00:53:50] getting a dentist to change behaviour is hard. But then on the [00:53:55] other end of it, that makes it easier because competitors find it [00:54:00] much harder to take your customers compared to other businesses, you know. You know, people [00:54:05] aren’t agile in changing software every three days. Um, even, even, [00:54:10] uh, you know, dental, dental materials, they get used to something they don’t want to change. And [00:54:15] so it’s one of those slow burn type businesses. Um, and, you know, I hate [00:54:20] regulatory, I hate it. And, you know, not that I’m at all involved [00:54:25] in it, but, you know, we’ve got people we spend loads of money on every time we’re trying to go to another country, [00:54:30] another regulatory nightmare. But I do reflect on the fact that it’s not a pizza shop [00:54:35] that my brother in law could set up next door to me if he wanted to, and [00:54:40] immediately take my business. It’s the regulatory is the best and the worst thing about it, [00:54:45] and the slow sales cycle that you’re discussing is also one of the best [00:54:50] and worst things about dentistry. I want to get on to the [00:54:55] sort of mental position that the market’s [00:55:00] now got for care Stack, which I suppose, Adrian, you’re really responsible for what’s happened [00:55:05] there.

Payman Langroudi: As I say, it feels like you’ve been around a long time and what you’ve done with [00:55:10] events, um, it makes you just feel like as, as an outsider that, [00:55:15] you know, these are people I need to listen to. I need to pay attention to this company. [00:55:20] Um, and we’ve discussed many times events. Let’s go to events. Yeah, [00:55:25] we’ve discussed many times that events need a shake up. You know, that they [00:55:30] haven’t changed. I mean, I’ve been in dentistry 25 years, 30 years or something, and [00:55:35] they basically haven’t changed very much. Um, and [00:55:40] I think Covid brought it into like sharper sort of focus that if you’re going [00:55:45] to leave your house, it needs to be worth it to leave your house. [00:55:50] Otherwise you can just go, you know, and there’s a magic about, let’s [00:55:55] face it, whatever AI comes in or whatever, there is a magic about [00:56:00] breaking bread and having lunch together, right? The AI is never going to replace. And for [00:56:05] instance, when you were doing the Rory um, thing, um, massive, wonderful [00:56:10] innovation, right? Bringing someone like him to dentistry. Um, Rory [00:56:15] Sutherland the, the, you know, you could have just gone to YouTube and watched a lot of [00:56:20] Rory, you know, but being in the same room as him, there’s a magic there. Not to mention he [00:56:25] sort of made his content more Dental. Mhm. So tell me your thought process around that. Do [00:56:30] you share what I’m saying about enough of hotels and conference centres and.

Adrian Dray: Oh, it’s. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: Turning up as either James Bond or or Spider-Man [00:56:40] at the socials. You know, like.

Adrian Dray: It comes down to it comes down to a feeling that I [00:56:45] have. And I think you’ll you will agree with this. Dentistry is obviously a very small world. [00:56:50] The behaviours with it, the closest that I’ve ever experienced [00:56:55] is being back at high school.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Because you have the same cliques, right? [00:57:00] Yeah. You’ve got the, the, the ones that are going for the awards, the prom king, prom queen, [00:57:05] the popular kids. Right.

Kautham Haran: Did you grow up in the UK? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:57:10] is a lot of American TV.

Adrian Dray: It’s not my fault you were alone at [00:57:15] school, right? I actually had friends.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:57:20] on.

Adrian Dray: Homecoming, but I. And then you [00:57:25] would have, like, the anti-establishment. Yeah, right, kids. And then you would have, like, the real, [00:57:30] like, nerdy Do you have the bullies? Bullies. So you have all [00:57:35] of these these these these different these different cliques. And the way I survived [00:57:40] high school is I didn’t really belong to any particular clique.

Payman Langroudi: I just everyone thinks they’re that cat. But [00:57:45] you know.

Adrian Dray: I moved between.

Payman Langroudi: All of them. Not, not.

Adrian Dray: The, not the bullies. Yeah, but but [00:57:50] I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you go to school?

Adrian Dray: So I went to a private school in Devon up until [00:57:55] year eight. Year end of year eight. And then I went to a community college in North [00:58:00] Devon. So I’ve seen the private and the non private combination. Yeah. Got [00:58:05] bullied massively in my first year of community college. But um but yeah, I was able to [00:58:10] survive, you know, just understanding that social kind of thing. And you know what it’s like, right? It’s, it’s once [00:58:15] a year or it’s a couple of times a year, there’ll be that kid who’s got the best party and [00:58:20] everyone’s talking about going to that party.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: And afterwards, what happened at [00:58:25] that party?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that kid’s share price goes up.

Adrian Dray: Right, right. And what actually happens in that party, it it might [00:58:30] not necessarily even be that exciting, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s the conversation, the hype.

Adrian Dray: On it, the hype after [00:58:35] it, the people who weren’t there, all this kind of thing. So I, [00:58:40] I was realising that this was happening right when, when we go into the [00:58:45] trade shows, it’s the same old thing, right? Whether you go there as an attendee, it’s worse if you’re a supplier [00:58:50] because you feel like you’re being robbed basically in front of.

Payman Langroudi: You, risking your. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [00:58:55] but the I, I thought, well, let’s, let’s try [00:59:00] a different, different type of event. And before I put on [00:59:05] for the doers, which happened on 19th of September last year, 2025, [00:59:10] I had started listening to Rory Sutherland about behaviour psychology, [00:59:15] about marketing and advertising. Actually joined his masterclasses, online masterclasses. [00:59:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you had.

Adrian Dray: Masters? Yeah. So I was speaking, I’ll say speaking, I was, I was, I [00:59:25] was listening, learning from Rory as part of this online class. And every month we have a call with Rory. [00:59:30] And that was really how I was able to get in front of him, to talk to him about [00:59:35] dentistry and try and see, would you be up for coming to an event? Because he’s I mean, you know, he’s [00:59:40] a he was the vice chair of Ogilvy, right? So he’s his schedule is so [00:59:45] packed, but I managed to get enough intrigue there for [00:59:50] him to say, yes, I will come and do an interview, you know, in front of a live [00:59:55] studio audience, um, for dentistry. And that was the, [01:00:00] the, the event was just going to be getting people to just listening to Rory. Right. [01:00:05] That was it. I was going to do an evening thing, get people to come in and then they’d leave. And I thought, [01:00:10] no, maybe there’s, there’s more, more to this. Um, and so what I [01:00:15] wanted to do is build the whole event, not around [01:00:20] our product, but around a particular ideal. And [01:00:25] the ideal is that there are two types of groups in dentistry. [01:00:30] Actually many other industries. But in dentistry, you’ve got the ones who love the status quo, [01:00:35] who are quite happily happy to push down anyone who wants to try something new, right? [01:00:40] We call them the Moaners. Okay. And then you’ve got the others [01:00:45] who, even though the Moaners exist, they still are bold. They dare to be different. They want [01:00:50] a better dentistry. They do that publicly. They do that behind the scenes. And we [01:00:55] call them the doers. Right. This bias towards action. Now, the commercial [01:01:00] angle on this is that if we’re able to host an event that is talking [01:01:05] about those themes, then people who are there identify as that [01:01:10] and therefore are more likely to maybe take a bet on a new product like care stack [01:01:15] and voice stack, right? Because it takes guts and you’re gambling and all sorts [01:01:20] to try something new.

Adrian Dray: It’s very easy to to pick IBM. Right. That’s the the old [01:01:25] adage. So having a having an event that was all around that and [01:01:30] then bringing in different people that are able to talk about the mindset, they’re able to talk about their [01:01:35] particular stories and present that without us even showing our product. [01:01:40] That was a bit of a risk. It was an unsanctioned event, right? It was [01:01:45] this was like off book. So, um, but we actually, [01:01:50] from a commercial perspective, we close more business on that than the trade shows [01:01:55] we had been to that year combined. So for [01:02:00] us, it just showed an in an outstanding [01:02:05] point is that these decision makers want [01:02:10] to get to know their providers well and be aligned on [01:02:15] the same things, which is we want innovation. We want the, the mindset, [01:02:20] the skill set, the strategies to try and help our teams move, to [01:02:25] help us move, to have those conversations internally that we can have because [01:02:30] we have this internal bias to action. Let’s stop talking about it. Let’s actually do it. [01:02:35] And that’s what we wanted to arm our audience members with. That’s what Rory [01:02:40] is really good at, because he’s the king about thinking differently on things and reframing problems. [01:02:45] Um, and it worked incredibly, incredibly well. And then for us [01:02:50] from a, from a mental monopoly of fame perspective, which is what you need, particularly [01:02:55] when you’re a new product. It just, it just took us to the moon.

Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t [01:03:00] make it because it was the first day of my son’s university.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though I had made it through [01:03:05] the process to come to it. Yes. But for people who weren’t there. And I [01:03:10] want to get on to that, by the way, I mean, there is a magic to events. There is a it’s a [01:03:15] nightmare. And at the end of the day, how many people can you have at an event? And, you know, by [01:03:20] the way, I’m doing event coming up. Yes. Um, the nightmare of an event versus [01:03:25] the magic of an event because it has. [01:03:30] Oh, we might have 400 people, but I put a post out on social today [01:03:35] that got 1000 views this morning. Yeah. And so it [01:03:40] doesn’t make actual ROI sense and brain time sense. And [01:03:45] yet in another totally immeasurable way, it makes total sense. Yeah. So tell [01:03:50] me about the if for people who weren’t there, what, what, what are a couple of, [01:03:55] um, Rory insights into dentistry?

Adrian Dray: Well, I would say that Rory [01:04:00] insights happen right from the preparation part because I asked him about [01:04:05] how do I, how do I make this a standout event? Because this is completely new. Yeah, it’s from a company. [01:04:10] So they’re probably gonna think, oh, we’re going to get sold to for a whole afternoon. How do I do this? [01:04:15] And his insight was make it application only. Mhm. [01:04:20] Now this comes from a topic which he talks about quite often, [01:04:25] which is you want to add a level of, of frictions, often to a, to a [01:04:30] process. Because when people do this, they feel that there’s a status upgrade. [01:04:35] Now he gives an example of, um, uh, cake mix, [01:04:40] right? So when this first came out in the 70s, um, the [01:04:45] cake mix was, was made in such a way that all you had to do was add water. That was it. [01:04:50] Put it in the oven. Done. And it failed. It didn’t go [01:04:55] through. You think that’s, that’s so easy, right? But people just felt like they hadn’t really made [01:05:00] a cake. So then they changed it and they just they put a few words, [01:05:05] just add an egg. And then it, it went because there was a, there was a level [01:05:10] of action that was put there. There was a level of friction there that people had bought in. And [01:05:15] then they feel like there’s internally there’s this kind of status elevation by doing that. [01:05:20]

Adrian Dray: So the first thing we did was we made an application only now. Also, I wanted to make sure there was [01:05:25] the right split of audience in the room, which is important because if I put tickets [01:05:30] out to see Rory Sutherland and meet Rory Sutherland guaranteed it would have been just [01:05:35] a load of associates and students who’s not my target audience. So [01:05:40] I was also making sure that we had the right, the right mix, right mix in [01:05:45] the room. So starting off with Rory’s insight was that, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen another [01:05:50] event that’s done application only. And that’s all I’m going to do before the doers moving forward. The [01:05:55] other things that he was showing, which was, which was [01:06:00] interesting during during, I was actually looking back on the interview recently, insights from [01:06:05] Rory. He spoke about [01:06:10] the, the potency of other people who [01:06:15] love their dentists. Mhm. Right. And he made a link towards [01:06:20] Royal Mail. Now, Royal Mail invests a lot of money into their brand. A few years [01:06:25] ago, quite a lot, probably about ten years ago. What they couldn’t understand [01:06:30] is that whilst they put all of this investment into their brand, they were [01:06:35] still part of the country where the satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was [01:06:40] going down. Even though as well they had a higher delivery rate as well. [01:06:45] But then they would find certain areas of the country where.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite.

Adrian Dray: Was true. The opposite [01:06:50] was. So the delivery rate was worse. But the interest in Royal Mail was much was [01:06:55] much higher. Right. The satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was much higher when they investigated [01:07:00] it. The. The. It all came down to how much they liked their postie, postman, [01:07:05] postman or postwoman. Right. Right. So that [01:07:10] was that was the weird thing, right? They can they don’t mind if there’s a couple of days late, but they. When the [01:07:15] postman comes, they. Morning. How are you doing? How’s the kids? Right. All this [01:07:20] kind of thing. Now, he went to a finance director and said, you know, we need to invest more in this. [01:07:25] They think he’s always got to do is deliver the letters. Who cares? But that [01:07:30] was that was a really important, important thing. He calls it the front, the doorman fallacy, [01:07:35] where you have a really nice hotel and it’s had a doorman at [01:07:40] the front who knows everyone who comes, comes across, knows all the local gangsters, knows all the [01:07:45] police, like all those the homeless guys. Now, if you had, um, [01:07:50] one of these big consultancy firms like McKinsey that went into that hole, the first thing they would say is, well, [01:07:55] is this a doorman to get an electric door, put a CCTV camera? Yeah.

Adrian Dray: That’s it. And [01:08:00] what they would. And then you save the money on his on his salary. But then later [01:08:05] on they realise well the, the, the rate has gone down. So [01:08:10] having those kind of things which you cannot necessarily quantify [01:08:15] is a really important thing to look at. And when you’ve got a split in the audience between DSO, [01:08:20] Leaders and independent practice owners, this was really this was really true because [01:08:25] now independent practice owners are starting to look into their data more than ever, right? They can [01:08:30] go into ChatGPT, they can get a McKinsey style response to [01:08:35] a particular problem. But what they’re forgetting is what makes them unique and [01:08:40] what is a superpower for them, which is they’re a family run business, and that probably has a higher potency [01:08:45] rate than whatever ChatGPT ChatGPT spits out or [01:08:50] a consultant spits out the same way you can save money here. So that was one [01:08:55] of his, his main things that he was, he was looking at.

Payman Langroudi: What was I mean, how does the dormant fallacy translate [01:09:00] to dentistry? Is that the you the way your receptionist acts or whatever?

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So for [01:09:05] example, you know, I showed invoice stack just before we went, we went live and [01:09:10] I actually saw Rory yesterday and, um, at an event and he goes, he goes, I’m [01:09:15] plugging voice at for you everywhere. I was like, I know Rory, I’m getting lawyers called me. I’m getting finance [01:09:20] people like, can you tell them it’s just for tennis?

Payman Langroudi: You’ve you’ve become one of his stories.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, exactly. [01:09:25] Right. So, um, yeah, but you have to go into other industries like, yeah, okay. But it was just [01:09:30] focus on, on dentistry now. But what he was, what he was saying [01:09:35] is what he likes about voice stack is that it’s able to show you what’s [01:09:40] called potential opportunities. Okay, this is what happens is that say someone [01:09:45] moves into the local area, okay, they’ve driven past your practice and they see an Invisalign [01:09:50] sign, or they know that you do implants. And the previous practice, they were they know that was one [01:09:55] of the things they were talking about. Whatever the story is, that means that person calls your practice [01:10:00] and makes an inquiry. Okay, now, does every one of those inquiries [01:10:05] on that first call turn into a Botox appointment? No, no. Right. And there [01:10:10] might be multiple reasons for it. It It could be the receptionist doesn’t have the right telephone handling skills [01:10:15] for that particular type of call, or just generally, it could be that they’re distracted because they’re dealing with a patient [01:10:20] right in front of them. It could be they’re not educating the person correctly on the type of treatment. There’s [01:10:25] a whole multitude of reasons why that person didn’t book on the initial call. What [01:10:30] voice act does is it analyses that call and sees [01:10:35] this is a new appointment opportunity here. It didn’t get booked. They spoke [01:10:40] about implants. What if we had an opportunity to give them a call back and voice [01:10:45] that highlights those particular calls. It scores the probability rates that if you call this person [01:10:50] back, and if you touched on these particular types of points, there’s [01:10:55] an 80, 60, 70% chance of getting them booked back in.

Payman Langroudi: Well, now and then it [01:11:00] alerts the team to call these guys first.

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So what practices are realising now [01:11:05] is that when they have voice that before they had absolutely no understanding or idea And [01:11:10] it’s not their fault because the dumb phone systems that they’ve been using, even the AI ones, weren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Totally [01:11:15] separate to me as far as package wise.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, you can have it integrated or separately. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Adrian Dray: Um, so now what they’re saying is like, right. So [01:11:25] our practice received, let’s say 100 opportunity calls, existing [01:11:30] or new patients that are calling up, talking about, talking about treatments with an intention to book an appointment, [01:11:35] right? Not changing the appointment, intention to book an appointment. And of that, we [01:11:40] didn’t book 80% of them. Why not? And [01:11:45] now they can look at look at all of those. But it’s not just the case of thinking, oh crap, we’ve got a [01:11:50] massive problem here. The system is now nudging a treatment coordinator or someone else [01:11:55] to call that individual back. And now that conversion [01:12:00] rate is going up. Now the there’s two things that work really well here. First of [01:12:05] all, that’s reverse benchmarking because no other practice is doing that, because they don’t have a system in [01:12:10] place that actually picks up that opportunity anyway. The second thing is, [01:12:15] is that the potency level from a patient experience is so high for [01:12:20] people getting that type of callback, right. So imagine, imagine Mrs. Jones has [01:12:25] made the call. She’s, uh, heard that one of her friends has had dental implants [01:12:30] done at the practice and thought, you know, I’ve got, you know, anniversary dinner coming [01:12:35] up in a few months and I’m a bit worried. Don’t have the confidence eating into a steak or whatever. I really want to whatever [01:12:40] their sob story is around implants. Okay. And they call up whether [01:12:45] it’s price, maybe it’s something else. They don’t they don’t book in. Now, they [01:12:50] spoke to Julie on the front desk. Now, uh, Donna, [01:12:55] the TCO calls back that patient potential patient [01:13:00] and says, oh, Mrs. Jones, she spoke to Julie yesterday about this. I don’t think that we covered everything [01:13:05] on finance for you. I just wondered if you know. So you make an informed [01:13:10] choice. I get to see, even from the conversation data and speaking with practices, [01:13:15] practices, all of them have got a story where the patient is absolutely [01:13:20] over the moon from a patient experience perspective that they had that type of [01:13:25] call.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I think as in the second person knows what happened in the first call.

Kautham Haran: And [01:13:30] you can even take it further there. I think I’ve seen some practices who do really well with this. When a patient turns around [01:13:35] and says, I’m off to the Bahamas for a, for a couple of months and I’m coming back and you get that transcript pulled [01:13:40] through and you understand it. And then you use that when the when the front of house or the TCO then [01:13:45] calls that patient and says and speaks to them next. Oh, I hope your trip to the Bahamas was. Well, yeah, that difference, [01:13:50] I think in you keep you’re keeping the ethos of what your practice is good at, you know, from [01:13:55] the dormant fallacy kind of idea, all of these things on what’s the core parts of our business family run [01:14:00] this kind of thing, making sure we’re doing right by the patients, but then you’re getting your systems to come in place [01:14:05] and just almost amplify the things that you’re good at, and that is [01:14:10] working really well for you. I think those two things tying together is the key. The system.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:15] there’s a CRM built in so that the team can see what’s going on [01:14:20] with respect to these.

Adrian Dray: Two things, we integrate with a few CRM. So Boxley is one of them. We’ve got [01:14:25] go high level. There’s a few others and then grow as well. Um, [01:14:30] but we do have at that a specific feature that if, if the [01:14:35] individuals just want to have a look at that potential opportunities that come in that they can just focus [01:14:40] on that. Um, the other thing that that voice stack has been really good for and has the same thing that Rory [01:14:45] was talking about is missed call response, um, is [01:14:50] like front and centre. So every practice is going to have missed calls. Okay. I spoke to a practice [01:14:55] last week. Their answer rate was 25%. [01:15:00] Wow. Okay. But they responded to every missed call. Okay. [01:15:05] In under an hour. It was. It was just weird. I said, you’re spending more time [01:15:10] on responding to missed calls than you are answering them now. We there was there was some reasons internally [01:15:15] for that. We’ve helped them with some features and this kind of thing. I checked their stats yesterday. They’ve gone to 75%. [01:15:20] Right. But the thing I said that you should take stock and you [01:15:25] know, commend them.

Payman Langroudi: Number one we’re measuring the missed calls.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Go on. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But the [01:15:30] the thing is, is that I can um when you’re the fact you’re responding [01:15:35] to these missed calls at all is, is great and you’re doing it so quickly. [01:15:40] If you put yourself in the patient’s shoes, they don’t know what percentage of you know [01:15:45] you’re answering. You’re missing. They just know that.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the situation? They were understaffed.

Adrian Dray: They [01:15:50] they had a whole new reception team. And they had one receptionist. They had given that there were only a 1 or [01:15:55] 2 surgery practice. They had the same call volume as a five surgery practice I’d spoken [01:16:00] to the day before. They just got a lot of calls.

Payman Langroudi: For interesting practice.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, but [01:16:05] it might just be it could be just the area. It could be the fact that people were ringing around for NHS. There’s lots of different things [01:16:10] for this. But the, the, the, the point that Rory was saying is that he said, [01:16:15] if you put your consumer hat on, how many times have you had [01:16:20] this experience where you’ve called a big company or even a small company you’ve not got through and they’ve called you back? [01:16:25] Doesn’t happen. You just think, I haven’t got through to E today. I’ve got to call them back. Yeah. Right. [01:16:30] So the potency level or the being an exception in that patient’s mind is [01:16:35] so high because they think, oh, wow. Thank you for calling me back. That’s great. Add that [01:16:40] to potential opportunities where it’s highly personalised. Then it’s even more of a winner.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [01:16:45] And I think taking from that, it’s I’ve seen some practices that have done this really well when [01:16:50] they’re looking at that scenario where, for example, their call rate is so low, they then [01:16:55] have done this thing where within their teams, they’ve said, how do we address this as [01:17:00] a team and now bringing the team in to be part of that process. I always use the analogy of, um, [01:17:05] you know, Ikea furniture because you’re building it yourself. You then have more [01:17:10] care for the furniture. And in that same way, by getting team members to then address the [01:17:15] problem and be part of the solution and help define that solution, the uptake and the change [01:17:20] is completely ownership. Yeah, complete ownership of doing [01:17:25] it themselves and understanding. And because they’ve helped to develop that process, they, they think, oh, [01:17:30] I can’t not do it because I was the one who even helped to suggest this.

Adrian Dray: And when you add that voice that does [01:17:35] call scoring as well, so it looks at the individuals calls, it splits it up into different [01:17:40] areas and says, you’re great at this, but you weren’t good at this.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the back end of that? [01:17:45] You could like voice to text to LM.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, yeah.

Adrian Dray: Then presents [01:17:50] it back into a UI.

Payman Langroudi: Nightmare software is man. Because because give it another eight months [01:17:55] and the guys AI is going to call the practices AI.

Adrian Dray: That’s already [01:18:00] happening, isn’t it? This is a brilliant story, right? So this is this is why I’m I’m a little bit even [01:18:05] though we are bringing out our own like AI voice bot receptionists, [01:18:10] we have to as a, as an industry, we have to be exceptionally careful [01:18:15] with this. Um, so let me give you a quick story first [01:18:20] and then then go into the warning. There are practices out in the US that have [01:18:25] an AI receptionist voice receptionists taking calls out of hours, [01:18:30] and they’ve just picked whatever’s first the market or got the best ad campaign about [01:18:35] Dental receptionists. And they’re coming after a couple of weeks, [01:18:40] they’re going all on Facebook and saying, this is amazing. It’s booked so many like Invisalign [01:18:45] consultations. I had no idea there was so much interest at 2 a.m.. Right. [01:18:50] What it is, right, is that their competitor down the road knows they’re using an AI receptionist [01:18:55] has built their own AI patient to go and phone up, book [01:19:00] all of these fake consultations.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So goddamn, [01:19:05] how petty is that? Now, whether that’s going to work in the [01:19:10] US or in the UK, I don’t know whether that’s going to have the same situation. But the warning is [01:19:15] here is that it does not take much effort. You don’t need any coding experience [01:19:20] to design. What is an AI Dental receptionist? Right. There’s [01:19:25] so many that are hitting the market. Yeah. The problem that we have is the same problem we had [01:19:30] when those hoverboards came out. You remember those two wheeled hoverboards, right? It didn’t start [01:19:35] with Samsung or big name brand bringing out a hoverboard. It was [01:19:40] cheap hoverboards that were being drop shipped from Taiwan and China. Yeah. Then they were [01:19:45] starting to be house fires, people getting having accidents. And that whole product line died straight [01:19:50] away because it was bottom. Top. Mhm. Right. We have we’re going to have [01:19:55] we’re going to have the same problem with AI voice receptionists, because everyone’s running to AI [01:20:00] because they’re thinking AI from an efficiency perspective. They’re not seeing AI from a value perspective. [01:20:05] And this is bad for even small dental practices should always [01:20:10] look at value. The corporates, although they shouldn’t, they they typically look at [01:20:15] an efficiency perspective because they have the restraints of being a pee backed often. Right. But [01:20:20] you know as well having a premium product, right. It’s premium for a reason. It [01:20:25] gives value for, for a reason. So you’re not why would you want to gamble with [01:20:30] a potential patient who could be dropping 30 K on a full arch or [01:20:35] very complex treatment in the hands of a, of a robot.

Payman Langroudi: Because the robots are better [01:20:40] at it than the human that that would be at that point. I mean, we’ve got a chatbot is better than most of our [01:20:45] people. And that never makes a mistake. When, when, when they it’s text, right. When they send [01:20:50] that text, they certainly we found out there’s only 27 questions that enlightened ever gets asked. So [01:20:55] she knows how to answer those 27. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to [01:21:00] organise, but that is the moment you would do it right when when the AI answers better than the human, [01:21:05] I bet there’s a whole lot of, um, data protection nightmares in it too. Oh yeah. [01:21:10]

Adrian Dray: Because a lot of these AI receptionists that came, that came out and actually look. [01:21:15] Yeah. Um, last year, right. I was getting a spike of calls [01:21:20] to my, to my GDPR consultancy. Right. Adrian, I’ve just, I’ve just [01:21:25] got this. I’m not going to mention the name of it. Um, just got this AI receptionist that’s being pushed out on, [01:21:30] on, uh, in Facebook at the moment. Um, and it’s, [01:21:35] I’ve got a data breach. It’s starting to provide the details of the previous patient. [01:21:40] Well, right.

Payman Langroudi: So just someone asked it. Yeah, [01:21:45] it was too.

Kautham Haran: It doesn’t have the safeguarding in there to do it. And it will. [01:21:50]

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Because I was, I was getting a bit of pushback. Right. And being challenged online. It’s like, Adrian, [01:21:55] you know, you’re the face of voice tech in the UK. This AI phone system is [01:22:00] analysing where’s your voice spot? We’ve got all these other people. Where’s your one? And I was like giving our guys hassle [01:22:05] for this. And I just don’t look bad, man. And then they, they, um, they told [01:22:10] me it’s like, well, it’s not harder than you think. You’ve got complex treatment plans, you’ve got NHS, [01:22:15] you’ve got potential safeguarding. This is not easy to push out. For some calls [01:22:20] it might be straightforward. You start bringing in some complexity and it starts doing all sorts of crazy stuff, [01:22:25] including data breaches. So ours is coming out soon. I won’t [01:22:30] give dates, but um, but yeah, I can tell you that that the significant amount [01:22:35] of effort has been put in so that it gives a proper experience and importantly, it passes over [01:22:40] to the right person when it’s required.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to the [01:22:45] darker part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. Obviously, [01:22:50] you guys aren’t clinicians, So it’s not going to be as stark. But what would you [01:22:55] call your biggest mistakes in at work?

Kautham Haran: I [01:23:00] think for me, I think, um [01:23:05] building teams is always hard. I think you learn a lot. [01:23:10] I mean, if you think about the different types of people that you come across, and I think sometimes [01:23:15] making difficult decisions around team members and sometimes [01:23:20] believing in the best in some of them as well. Now I’ve always got this, you know, [01:23:25] people come from all sorts of backgrounds. They come in, you know, they go through an interview process and you bring them in. But [01:23:30] at the end of the day, if you’ve got a high performing team, you have a duty of care to those high performers [01:23:35] that you don’t keep low performers within the team because [01:23:40] otherwise it becomes a toxic environment and doing that. So I think learning that lesson too late. [01:23:45] I know I’ve put potentially stress on the teams and the high performers without, [01:23:50] you know, needing to tackle those probably difficult decisions.

Payman Langroudi: Not firing people [01:23:55] quick enough. I think you’re saying.

Kautham Haran: I think hiring slow but firing fast is [01:24:00] definitely some a lesson that whilst I’ve been at chaos that, you know, it’s something I’ve learned. [01:24:05] I mean, I’ll be honest, when I joined chaos, I think on my second day, I was told to build a team of ten people [01:24:10] and not having been in implementation, not having been in Dental. And then I think building [01:24:15] teams fast, you then realise, hmm, okay, should I’ve done that a bit slower and picked and [01:24:20] you know, and did it slightly differently. So making that decision to, to move faster, [01:24:25] I think, you know, and probably when I have made those decisions, I’ve also gone out and probably [01:24:30] apologised to my team because I think you should sit there as a potential leader within an organisation [01:24:35] and admit the mistakes that you’ve made, because if you have caused duress on the team, it’s [01:24:40] those guys who are there to perform and you sit above and you’re meant to guide them. But it tells [01:24:45] us all that we’re kind of human and we can make those mistakes. So for me, I think that’s the one that probably [01:24:50] frustrates me a bit about my experience. But everything is a learning.

Payman Langroudi: People talk about business [01:24:55] should be more like a pro sports team than a family.

Kautham Haran: And I’m a big [01:25:00] fan of that.

Payman Langroudi: But you do feel like it’s a family. We’re a family here. We’re working together, we care about [01:25:05] each other and all of that. And so when you mix those two things up, it becomes hard to fire people. [01:25:10]

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think so. But I think also, once you start having a high performing team, it becomes a bit easier because [01:25:15] the standard is set and I use the analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of polices each other.

Kautham Haran: Exactly. And I think it’s that [01:25:20] kind of thing where I use the analogy from the movie 300, where I think they’re all meant to [01:25:25] lift their shield and cover the person next to them. If you bring in a team member that can’t lift that shield, [01:25:30] the others will be the ones at your door saying, hang on, this person’s not not up to scratch. And [01:25:35] I think that for me is probably a lesson that I’ve learned that, you know, once you’ve got good people in your team, they [01:25:40] can even tell you, you know, I don’t think this person’s cut out for it. But that’s a, there’s [01:25:45] a very fine line there because that can be a toxic work environment. So how do you police that? [01:25:50] How do you make sure when you’ve got young members in the team and they’re all early in their careers or growing the [01:25:55] human beings, they’re going to make mistakes. How do you manage that? How do you make sure everyone’s [01:26:00] singing from the same hymn sheet? And how do you cover those things? Because once you get a toxic environment, [01:26:05] um, I’ve seen that with teams, you kind of almost have to cut it all out and start again, which is [01:26:10] not easy to do. And I know that’s something that has gone through as a company, not necessarily in the UK, but in [01:26:15] I think in the US. They did that at some point. And I think that’s a lesson I’ve learned from Abbey, which [01:26:20] he told me very early on. Yeah, that was needed.

Adrian Dray: So Abbey is.

Kautham Haran: Right. And I still fell into that mistake. [01:26:25] And it’s frustrating. The good thing is he doesn’t he doesn’t really say, I told you so. No, I think [01:26:30] I think from that side, I think I didn’t I didn’t take that into consideration enough, but I’ve learned my lessons.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian. [01:26:35] Biggest mistake.

Adrian Dray: Plural or singular? I [01:26:40] think the the biggest mistake that [01:26:45] I have made since my Kazakh journey is [01:26:50] taking myself too seriously at times. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Adrian Dray: Because, you know, when we first came, I launched this with Abby. [01:27:00] We were on the road and we were. And we were very much the face, the personality [01:27:05] behind the product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Now Abby is now mostly in the US. Um, [01:27:10] and it’s it’s me. Right. I’ve become the more of the name [01:27:15] and the face around the product. And my job is to make it famous and make it [01:27:20] popular and to be a thorn in the side to my competitors and calling out their issues [01:27:25] without mentioning their names. Right. These these are things. And you get so involved in that, that [01:27:30] creative process when things don’t go your [01:27:35] way or when mistakes happen, it’s not of a case that it’s a it’s a black [01:27:40] mark or a smudge on the Kazakh name. It’s so easy to take it as that’s a. [01:27:45] That’s a smudge against my name. Now, as soon as that happens, I [01:27:50] realise I start to lose my temper, and when I lose my temper and I become negative, [01:27:55] I take it out on cow. I take it out on Samantha. I take it out on the teams and [01:28:00] I have to take myself out of the country often just to. [01:28:05] Just to chill out. So the way that I’ve been able to, to change [01:28:10] that now is I, I’m stepping a little bit back [01:28:15] from just being the person who is who’s, who is talking on stage and [01:28:20] all these kind of things because you’ve got to know cow. Now you can see why I was like, we need [01:28:25] to have cow on the podcast because he has so much insight.

Adrian Dray: He articulates on items a lot better than I do. [01:28:30] And it’s not a case that I want cow to take the heat. Sometimes it’s a case of that there’s [01:28:35] more to this from a personality perspective than Adrian Dray, right? [01:28:40] And I don’t say that in an arrogant way. It’s just the way the chips have fallen with this. Um, [01:28:45] uh, but that’s probably the, the biggest thing. And, and, you know, the way, [01:28:50] the way this probably happened the most was last [01:28:55] year, uh, in, uh, dentist for dentist group. [01:29:00] They had an anonymous posting feature, anonymous comments feature and [01:29:05] there was conversations around care stack positive and negative. And then it just, [01:29:10] it was just a tirade of negative comments. And then it started to go against me personally, right? [01:29:15] Things like Adrian’s gone from helping protecting businesses [01:29:20] now to destroying them, right? Which is like, where’s this come from? It’s like, oh, this is it. He’s [01:29:25] just, he’s given free GDPR advice for, for years. [01:29:30] Um, and now to, you know, now only just to go and push, push a product. I was [01:29:35] like, I was doing GDPR way before he was even a thought, right, for the UK market. [01:29:40] And that really hit me. I remember sending screenshots to Cao and Sham, which I shouldn’t [01:29:45] send screenshots of. I’ll get killed for that. It was only a bit about me. Um, and it was anonymous. Um. [01:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: How are you on that site in the first place?

Adrian Dray: How? Yeah, because years of [01:29:55] giving free GDPR advice. That’s that’s honorary honorary member. Yeah. But [01:30:00] what what I later found out is that there are individuals who have a personal [01:30:05] beef with me. Were getting other people to post pretending to [01:30:10] be clients.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, anonymous post. Right.

Adrian Dray: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [01:30:15] and I, I let them win. I let them take, take my peace of mind. [01:30:20] So now I just don’t care. I like now I view myself as a gladiator in the Colosseum, [01:30:25] which all Dental suppliers should. Right. And the audience are in the Colosseum. [01:30:30] That’s dentistry. So we are there to fight. It’s supposed to be a bloodbath. So when these things pop [01:30:35] up now, I don’t take it so seriously. It’s like, well, this is the game.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve been guilty of taking it too [01:30:40] personally.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Kautham Haran: Massively so. I think on that, Adrian, I can’t give you enough credit for managing that, to be honest, [01:30:45] because the rest of us, we’ve come into dentistry. Obviously I want to be here to stay. But [01:30:50] given your longevity within this market, I think that kind of pressure where people associate your [01:30:55] name with Kessock, I think sitting there and if you’re getting these personal digs, that’s not, you know, [01:31:00] if Kessock doesn’t work or anything like this, the rest of us can walk away. But for you, I think there [01:31:05] is a significantly more risk, you know, higher risk that you’ve taken on that. That’s not easy as a person. And I think it’s [01:31:10] strength to Adrian’s character to be able to kind of manage that and also admit that [01:31:15] you were a nightmare to deal with in those scenarios when it was awful. I’ll be honest, but I [01:31:20] wouldn’t have wanted to be in your shoes, and I give you credit for that. Thanks. To get through that.

Adrian Dray: This [01:31:25] is recorded. Yeah. I’m going to play that back to you.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re a heart on your sleeve [01:31:30] kind of guy. Yeah. Again, it’s the best thing about you as well. Um it’s you know what, [01:31:35] the one thing I’m learning from this pod is I should spend more time on Facebook. I haven’t been.

Adrian Dray: There. You don’t [01:31:40] want to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: For a long, long, long time. I [01:31:45] was looking at my for some reason, my phone gave me my son’s screen time [01:31:50] for whatever, you know, and I thought he was like, I don’t know, two hours, 40. And [01:31:55] then I looked at my own one and I said, oh, you’re down like 24% from last week [01:32:00] at seven hours. I was like, what, seven hours? Um, [01:32:05] another social platform. I don’t know if I could manage, man.

Adrian Dray: Well, I think it’s good. You [01:32:10] know, it’s good to be able to see what’s being said.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But also taking a lot [01:32:15] of it with a pinch, pinch of salt, particularly when people are.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had my moments on on for Dental. Yeah, [01:32:20] for sure. But I just I don’t bother with it with, with Facebook anymore. No, I’m more [01:32:25] the other, other direction. Let’s move on to our final questions. Fancy [01:32:30] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who’s going first? [01:32:35]

Adrian Dray: You go first.

Kautham Haran: Okay. For me, I think [01:32:40] Obama is one. I think Michelle.

Payman Langroudi: What’s funny about. [01:32:45]

Kautham Haran: It, to be honest, I think as an orator, he’s [01:32:50] the best, I think. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Even better than Clinton and Blair, man, which I didn’t think was possible.

Kautham Haran: I think [01:32:55] the way he speaks, and it’s probably something that, you know, for me and my career and where I want to go, I think I, you [01:33:00] know, I think being able to pick his brain and just sit with him, I think would be incredible. [01:33:05] I think number one, number two, probably for me, quite a I quite [01:33:10] like my movies. So I think Christopher Nolan, I’ve loved his movie since I was young. [01:33:15] So I think just understanding how he creates a vision within his head and plots it because, you [01:33:20] know, it’s art.

Payman Langroudi: Which is your favourite memento?

Kautham Haran: Love that movie [01:33:25] from 2000. So a film shot I think. Non-chronologically. [01:33:30] So it’s back to front. It’s very.

Adrian Dray: Weird.

Kautham Haran: Film, very good movies. If you haven’t seen it, I would [01:33:35] recommend.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve seen it or not.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Would I remember it?

Kautham Haran: No it’s not. I don’t think [01:33:40] it’s particularly popular very you know, I mean he’s known for confusing movies, but I think I remember [01:33:45] the name. Yeah. That was the kind of one that got it. Um, and probably third more [01:33:50] from a personal point of view. Um, I think, um, I never got the chance to meet my [01:33:55] grandfather. He passed away before I was born. But when I’ve spoken to [01:34:00] my father, you know, they grew up in Sri Lanka. He was the reason, you know, that set the whole platform [01:34:05] for my father to, you know, eventually leave his country due to civil war. But I think I stand [01:34:10] on the shoulders of fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers of people [01:34:15] like that. And I think seeing how, you know, my dad’s my biggest hero. So if seeing them and [01:34:20] being able to talk to the person who moulded him, I think I there’s insights [01:34:25] there that I just wish and pray that I could have. But obviously he’s passed. So [01:34:30] unfortunately I can’t. But yeah, I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good reason to have him, right? Yeah. What [01:34:35] did your dad do?

Kautham Haran: Uh, my dad’s just, uh. He was a corner shop owner before. He’s now retired, but, [01:34:40] um, put.

Payman Langroudi: Myself in that corner shop owner. People say that. Yeah. The question is, what was he doing before that? [01:34:45] Because sometimes you’d be like, yeah, he was a civil engineer and then he became a corner shop. You get that [01:34:50] all the time.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. So my father left his country at the age of 21 due to civil war. Kind of [01:34:55] came over Sri Lanka. Yeah. Sri Lanka then. So he’s been a start up owner. Corner shop owner. Right. So [01:35:00] like I’ve always seen the drive to work from him. Honestly, he used to work. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You ever work in the shop? [01:35:05]

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: So massive people talk about how they manage like to [01:35:10] learn how to talk to anyone from working in a general store.

Kautham Haran: Absolutely. I think that kind [01:35:15] of just that relationship to, to talk to people from a young age, I think my dad was always against technology, [01:35:20] you know, was that, you know, those automatic tools that you got with the scanners when they first came out, I said, [01:35:25] is what I call him. I said, come on, you’ve got to get one of these, say the times. He’s like, no, why? Why don’t you just memorise the [01:35:30] price of every single item in the shop? And that’s how he runs it and how his staff had to run it. [01:35:35] And I thought, this is insane. So yeah, he did that. I think very mathsy brain, [01:35:40] which I think, and my mother as well, I’ve kind of taken on. But understanding that hard [01:35:45] work, I think comes from him for sure. And that’s kind of motivated me. They, you know, [01:35:50] they didn’t have to leave, you know, going back to Sri Lanka. I see the way they grew up. Bloody hell. You know, [01:35:55] like living, you know, three of them in a room smaller than this. Um, and growing up like that teaches you humility, [01:36:00] which I think then means that who am I to not try hard, given the opportunities I’ve given in life? So [01:36:05] that for me has been a very big kind of thing that I’m worried about future generations. [01:36:10] If they don’t see that hardship, how do you get them to to be motivated and [01:36:15] to push themselves? So, um, I think, yeah, coming from my father and those [01:36:20] generations, I think is it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. It’s like, you know, diamonds are made under pressure, [01:36:25] whatever, at the same time, you know, like, let’s imagine your kids [01:36:30] will see what you’re doing under a different type of pressure. Have you got kids?

Kautham Haran: Not yet. [01:36:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, and then and then the kind of thing that your kid might aspire to be. There’s [01:36:40] a global thing that, you know, it’s an interesting story.

Kautham Haran: Of course, because how do [01:36:45] you teach a generation? I don’t know, I find it really interesting. When you said your kids got off to a uni right now, [01:36:50] you said, yeah, yeah. So teaching them, you know, if, if you have a parent [01:36:55] that’s successful, I think, how do you instil that fire in the next generation? They have to be [01:37:00] motivated or been brought in, understand the the push and the hard work that’s necessary. [01:37:05] But understanding that you don’t always get given things on a silver platter, I think is important. But that’s [01:37:10] all kind of how you’re brought up. There’s some, you know, comparing to your peers, all these kind of things. It’s, it’s, [01:37:15] I don’t envy you at the moment, but it’s going to be even harder for future generations. I think, um, [01:37:20] it’s a quote I always love. What’s it the good time. Sorry. Good times breed [01:37:25] weak men. Weak men breed bad times and bad times breed good men, man, right? So that kind [01:37:30] of.

Adrian Dray: Heard of that?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think that cycle is.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:35] about you? Brilliant. Brilliant. Guess who’s going to be yours.

Adrian Dray: So [01:37:40] dead or alive?

Payman Langroudi: Three. Guess.

Adrian Dray: Fiction or non-fiction. Right. Okay. [01:37:45]

Payman Langroudi: Fiction. Interesting. Cool.

Adrian Dray: So it could be characters. Sure. Okay.

Kautham Haran: Fictional.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. [01:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Well, like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck like that.

Adrian Dray: I don’t give it away. Um, [01:37:55] so my first one would be Alex Hormozi. [01:38:00] Oh, yeah. Right. And for those who don’t know who Alex doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know Alex Hormozi.

Adrian Dray: People don’t. I [01:38:05] spoke to some. Oh, that guy from the Neck Dentistry show. I was talking to him. He didn’t [01:38:10] know who it was, like flipping it, mate. I guess there’s.

Payman Langroudi: A guy who’s not who’s not flicking as much as I am.

Adrian Dray: But [01:38:15] Alex Hormozi is just, you know, he’s entrepreneurial brain. [01:38:20] He’s ability to deal with the hard things is just great. Like that [01:38:25] guy is just a machine.

Payman Langroudi: Like just Unemotional. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Sort of. Yeah. But also, when he does [01:38:30] tap into that emotional bit, it’s like so compelling. It’s like, wow, you do bleed, you know? Um, [01:38:35] then the second person would be my favourite character of [01:38:40] all time. And that is Quint. So the fisherman, [01:38:45] the shark shark hunter in jaws.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: Oh, right.

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s [01:38:50] you want the character.

Adrian Dray: I want the character.

Payman Langroudi: Not the actor.

Adrian Dray: No, I mean, Robert Shaw would be amazing, but as [01:38:55] Robert Shaw, as Quint in that, because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had a character before. I [01:39:00] love that.

Adrian Dray: The ability to his storytelling ability is incredible. [01:39:05] Right. Um, and he’s quite grizzly, you know. Um, and then the, [01:39:10] the third person would be Don Draper from Mad Men. [01:39:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The character.

Adrian Dray: The character. But Jon Hamm playing Don [01:39:20] Draper. Right. Um.

Payman Langroudi: These are some of the three most innovative answers I’ve had. [01:39:25] Bad.

Adrian Dray: Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Because I think the conversation around that table would be so [01:39:30] interesting. Don Draper has got this very creative, almost aloof kind of personality. [01:39:35] You’ve got Quint who’s just this aggressive, you know, blue collar, almost [01:39:40] quite a nasty person, right, in many ways. And then you’ve got Hormozi, [01:39:45] who is just so like locked in to, to hard work, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I add one for you?

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [01:39:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Younger Adrian the musician. Oh, really? We didn’t really get to that.

Adrian Dray: That guy’s [01:39:55] a douchebag.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t really get to that part of the conversation. [01:40:00] You were a proper rock star for a bit, man.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I was a front man of a band. I was building [01:40:05] up in Stockholm, and it was a great time in my life. I was a lot [01:40:10] I almost half the weight I am now. Um, but it was brilliant writing my own songs [01:40:15] and yeah, having that.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re thinking of going back to writing.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. You [01:40:20] know, I was in, I was in Austin a few weeks ago and that country [01:40:25] music scene. And I the last sort of songs I was writing were very sort of country music based. Uh, [01:40:30] and I just got a taste for it. And I just thought for me, if I’m going to go back [01:40:35] on stage, feel more confident in myself, but also to be able to sing better because it, you know, it’s [01:40:40] breathing is a big part of it. I thought, I need to lose a buttload of weight. So I’ve set my set myself [01:40:45] a goal in November, I’m going to do a gig in Manchester and know exactly where it’s going to be. And I’ve got [01:40:50] ten songs to write and about 50, 40, 50 kilos to lose.

Payman Langroudi: And, well.

Kautham Haran: People are going to be [01:40:55] shouting, is that Don Draper? Oh.

Speaker 5: Yeah, [01:41:00] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s it’s [01:41:05] been a massive pleasure, man. I’ve really enjoyed it. Um, from you I’ve learnt go back on Facebook [01:41:10] and for you, my God, you, your brain works really beautiful [01:41:15] sort of logical way. It’s nice to see that. Nice to see how in touch you are with all [01:41:20] of that as well. And team building. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing.

Adrian Dray: Can I do one last thing? [01:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Adrian Dray: Can I plug someone? A business, a small little business [01:41:30] who unfortunately was at the same had [01:41:35] the same sort of outcome that I had from that individual who took the whole CRM [01:41:40] business idea.

Payman Langroudi: From the same person.

Adrian Dray: Same person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: I’ve heard that. [01:41:45] She’s a wonderful person. I’ve looked at her, some of her work. She does branding. Uh, it’s, uh, [01:41:50] her website is Varta creative studio.co. That’s VARTA creative [01:41:55] studio.co. Um, her, her big sister’s a [01:42:00] dentist owns a couple of practices and I think if people can have a look at what she’s got, go [01:42:05] for it.

Payman Langroudi: What does she do?

Adrian Dray: So she, she does like branding website design. It’s [01:42:10] on a smaller level. But I think we should look at these, these sort of, you know, smaller businesses and [01:42:15] give them a shot. And she’s, she’s had a difficult time with that individual. And I think, you know what, [01:42:20] go ahead and have a look.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you know the creatives for this stuff. Yeah, [01:42:25] we, we first, um, booked them 18 years [01:42:30] ago and it was just two men and now they’re this massive. [01:42:35]

Adrian Dray: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, some sometimes it’s, it’s when you’re small [01:42:40] and new, when you’re most innovative. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: You’ve got nothing to lose often, you know. [01:42:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you have to be something. You have to be outside of the box. Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Lovely [01:42:50] to have you guys. Thanks. Thanks for doing it.

Kautham Haran: Thank you. Thanks so much.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:42:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:43:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [01:43:05] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:43:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [01:43:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [01:43:20] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Neil Seeker [00:00:50] onto the podcast. Neil has had an illustrious career, but right [00:00:55] now, chief dental officer at Bupa Dental insurance [00:01:00] and director of dentistry at Bupa, which is 360 practices. So I [00:01:05] guess representing the clinicians at all levels, right. Is that is that is that what you [00:01:10] do at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: I do, I do, I suppose I do three things. I’m a practising dentist. [00:01:15] Still see my patients once a week. I’ve got a group of them I’ve been looking after for years. I’m the chief [00:01:20] dental officer for the insurance business. And in that role, I helped to design our dental insurance products, [00:01:25] sell them into large companies, and then look at how we can streamline [00:01:30] the journey for anybody that has that insurance that might want to come into our practices. And [00:01:35] then with the director of dentistry role, I think my job is to I I’m [00:01:40] the senior clinician that sits on the board. I lead our clinical advisory team, um, [00:01:45] and our role as a gang of four, if you like. Um, we represent the, [00:01:50] the dental community in terms of dentists, hygiene therapists, nurses, [00:01:55] and I oversee the group. But our job is to build a community [00:02:00] to try and help people believe in, in what the value of Bupa can [00:02:05] bring to them. But also, we just, you know, we want to be the number one choice of employer. And our [00:02:10] role as a for clinical professionals, our role as a group of four is to do that.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:02:15] your your career, I mean, I remember you from the Barbican. Dental days. Yeah. [00:02:20] Which I was, I was still studying but, but by the time I, I [00:02:25] was thinking about opening a practice, you were putting these sort of [00:02:30] mobile units outside of like bank headquarters and [00:02:35] then and then doing the deal with the bank to get people to, to go there instead of the other dentists [00:02:40] because it saves time.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. That wasn’t actually me. Was that in terms of the mobile units? [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Neil Sikka: But I had a very similar idea. So my story, [00:02:50] I suppose, started, I was working in the East End of London, Bethnal Green, you know, the heart [00:02:55] of the East End. And I was working in an NHS practice in the days [00:03:00] before CQC.

Payman Langroudi: Associate.

Neil Sikka: As an associate. Um, and my [00:03:05] room was probably not much bigger than this table. Um and I, it was so small that I [00:03:10] couldn’t have a door to go in. I had saloon doors. So I was an original cowboy dentist [00:03:15] and people used to fall into my chair and I literally would sit behind [00:03:20] the chair all day and patients would just come in. I’d see 40, 50 patients a day. [00:03:25] It was that kind of practice. You probably remember those. Yeah. And it was I mean, [00:03:30] it was hard. It was tough. And it was really difficult to provide the kind [00:03:35] of treatment that I wanted to. And I remember walking out the door one day and [00:03:40] I looked up and I saw the Tower of Canary Wharf going up. And I just [00:03:45] had that kind of moment. And I thought, I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to set up a dental practice [00:03:50] in Canary Wharf, and then I’m going to approach all the companies in the area and [00:03:55] effectively set up a dental plan for those companies so that all those employees can come [00:04:00] to my practice for treatment. And that was my kind of dream. Age 2425. [00:04:05] Um, it didn’t quite work out just like that [00:04:10] because I did approach Canary Wharf and they said, have you ever run a practice before? [00:04:15] We’re looking at some very high quality services for our environment.

Neil Sikka: You know, we’ve got investment [00:04:20] banks, law firms, blue chip firms of the world. Yeah. And I said, well, [00:04:25] no, I haven’t. But I’ve got this ambition. Anyway, I managed to find out. [00:04:30] They said that they were going to put a big health centre together and Dental was going to be part of an integrated health [00:04:35] centre. So I managed to find the name of the company that was potentially going to get the contract. [00:04:40] And I approached them and they said, okay, you know, you’ve got some good ideas, [00:04:45] but you’re 25 years old. We want to try you out effectively. They didn’t say that. Set [00:04:50] up in our building in the Barbican. We’ve got a health centre there. Let’s see how you get on. And that’s [00:04:55] how I started. And um and eventually they set up in Canary Wharf [00:05:00] and that’s how I started my business. And I just, you would literally, I would set up a [00:05:05] practice, go to the local blue chip firms and local firms as well. Um, [00:05:10] I had a dental plan that I had created, I would sell that into the, into [00:05:15] the company.

Neil Sikka: And then those employees for a set monthly fee would receive [00:05:20] services of my practices so I could grow private treatment very quickly. [00:05:25] Um, and also I, you know, I don’t know if, you know, in the early, late [00:05:30] 80s, 80s, early 90s dentistry was private [00:05:35] dentistry was the preserve of the West End of London, a few pockets around the country. Yeah, but [00:05:40] there wasn’t much private dentistry going on. And I felt that it was I [00:05:45] felt that it was quite elitist, if I’m honest. People would look down on you almost if [00:05:50] you were, you know, not if they were working in the West End. And I thought, that’s not the way it should be. We all qualify [00:05:55] the same. Yeah. Um, so I thought by introducing this way of [00:06:00] providing affordable private treatment on the doorstep for employees and [00:06:05] employers, I could make it much more egalitarian. And so everybody [00:06:10] from the CEO down to, you know, your doorman could have access [00:06:15] to treatment for a set monthly fee. And that’s how I grew it. So that grew over 20 [00:06:20] years. I had ten practices in the end. Um, and, you know, and [00:06:25] that’s how I grew the.

Payman Langroudi: Business, the mobile practices wasn’t.

Neil Sikka: You. The mobile was, um, was not me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:06:30] was not called Barbican as well.

Neil Sikka: No, that was called mobile. I think it was called Mobile Dental Services. [00:06:35] And that was run by a chap called Mark Trupp at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So how quickly did it get to ten [00:06:40] practices?

Neil Sikka: I think I started in 92 and [00:06:45] I think by 2002 I was at ten practices, but I opened them [00:06:50] all organically. I didn’t make any acquisitions. I would spot a place where I felt [00:06:55] there wasn’t, um, much dentistry being provided, or there was a new building [00:07:00] going up with thousands of employees going in, and that’s how I would approach it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:05] sort of self-finance. You didn’t have.

Neil Sikka: Self-financed. I didn’t take any debt because as I grew, [00:07:10] I, you know, you know, you can lease equipment. You just have to pay for the fit out. And [00:07:15] I just did it very gradually, if I’m honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that gradual is it, it’s a one a year every [00:07:20] year. And I guess you were sinking every dollar back in.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Busy time. And [00:07:25] it wasn’t a time where I mean now it’s a very common story, but back then it was kind of rare for multiple [00:07:30] practice. Yeah. At that rate.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. It’s [00:07:35] um. Yeah, I mean, but I had a great team and also geographically I was only in [00:07:40] central London, so I was in the city, I was in the Canary in Canary Wharf and I was in the West [00:07:45] End and that was it.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you think your value add was? I mean, was it the fact that [00:07:50] you were good at going to the companies and getting that deal done? Or [00:07:55] are you a, you know, an expert at operations?

Neil Sikka: I think, you [00:08:00] know, I mean, you’ve run your own practice in the past. Do you know what it’s like you have to learn on the job. Yeah. [00:08:05] And you I just had this idea. Yeah. Of I did not I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it took.

Neil Sikka: At the [00:08:10] time. Yeah. And it’s like you just fall into it, don’t you? And you go, well I’m not, I don’t know [00:08:15] if I’m a salesman, but I’ve got this idea and I think it sells itself. I didn’t think I had to sell it to anybody [00:08:20] because it was so obvious, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, but I mean, for instance, you’ve got Barclays [00:08:25] Bank in Canary Wharf. How did you figure out who to go to and what to say?

Neil Sikka: And [00:08:30] so in those days, you could get hold of the name of the HR director, [00:08:35] the human resources director, or, um, sometimes it was in the people team. They had different [00:08:40] titles, but it was basically the person that was running the, the benefits for, [00:08:45] for the staff, for staff, and you could get in the name and the number [00:08:50] in those days, try and do it now. It’s almost impossible to get through because there’s so [00:08:55] many gateways.

Payman Langroudi: That you got to.

Neil Sikka: Pass through. But in those days, I could literally make a call. And [00:09:00] that was before email, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s literally.

Payman Langroudi: Said the [00:09:05] pitch just like that, just the way you just described it.

Neil Sikka: So what’s interesting is how it first started [00:09:10] was that, um, I rented premises from a company called Barbican [00:09:15] Health. Mhm. Um, and they would give us the access [00:09:20] to their corporate clients. Um and that’s how it first started. But then eventually we [00:09:25] would do our own marketing and literally just kind of get on the phone and say, [00:09:30] we’ve got this idea. Can we send you some details? We’re just around the corner. And often it would start by going, we’ll, [00:09:35] we’ll try you out. Um, so what I’d say is anybody [00:09:40] with an emergency from your company, you call us, we will see them on the day. Anyone [00:09:45] in trouble. And that’s the way that. And we had that as a that was our policy throughout. [00:09:50] Actually, that was one of the best ways we grew the business, because we promised that we would move the diary [00:09:55] around to make sure that we would get someone out of pain. And I think if you do that, you’ve got a patient for life. [00:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Neil Sikka: Because they value the fact that you’ve, you know, you’ve gone the extra mile [00:10:05] for them. I really, it was a very personal business and I like baby.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:10:10] And I like to know the fact that I knew everybody in the business. And I found that I was starting to go into [00:10:15] practices and I didn’t recognise new employees that were being taken on. And I kind of thought, [00:10:20] oh, what’s, you know, what’s happening? Am I losing control? Or and it wasn’t so much that I thought. And then I [00:10:25] looked at the structure of the business. We didn’t have any central costs. So I outsourced finance, [00:10:30] admin, PR, marketing. But I felt that if we were going [00:10:35] to get to the next level from ten practices, we probably had to be 50 because we’d have [00:10:40] to justify the central costs that were then going to come in. Yeah. And I thought, if I’m going to set up [00:10:45] that team, then I’ve got to really leverage the business and grow it considerably. And [00:10:50] I probably had been doing it nearly 20 years by then, and I thought, maybe I’m ready [00:10:55] for a new challenge. It’s really interesting because people always say, well, how did you know who to sell [00:11:00] to? And I think that’s always a, an interesting point because, [00:11:05] because it depends what you want out of it. Now, I knew I didn’t want [00:11:10] to leave the business. I wanted to continue to be heavily involved. So for me, the [00:11:15] number one thing that was important was aligning our culture and values. What type of [00:11:20] business was going to take on, you know, my practices, [00:11:25] but also my people. So how are my people going to be treated [00:11:30] in this new business?

Payman Langroudi: But so this alignment of values factor, [00:11:35] how how important was that? I mean, was that massive? No. But was there another [00:11:40] group offering you more money? But the but the, uh, those things weren’t in [00:11:45] place. Yeah. Was it something like that?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I, you potentially left [00:11:50] money on the table to make sure that your team were looked after properly. Yeah. That’s [00:11:55] nice.

Neil Sikka: And so to me, it was about longevity. It was about alignment [00:12:00] of cultural values. And you know what the future might hold. And also that synergy of the [00:12:05] approach. So, you know, they they’ve actually termed it now where you [00:12:10] have, um, where you have a company that has a product and provision and they [00:12:15] align the two, they call it a pay vida. Mhm. Um, and I’m sure you’re aware of that, but [00:12:20] at the time that’s fair. That was fairly new. Um, [00:12:25] and the fact that I was doing, and the fact that Bupa Bupa was doing it was very aligned into the [00:12:30] way that I could see the growth of the business. So that was also important as well, because I wanted [00:12:35] to see that my own practices and my own people could grow and develop in a way [00:12:40] that I probably couldn’t give them. Yeah. Um, you know, within a much larger infrastructure. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what were the headlines as far as the size of the business, number of people, number [00:12:50] of patients turnover at that point? Well.

Neil Sikka: We were, um, [00:12:55] as I say, ten practices. We were seeing about 50,000 patients a year. [00:13:00] Um, I think we may have been about 160 people across [00:13:05] all practices. So, you know, it wasn’t big by modern [00:13:10] terms of what a corporate and it was, but it was just about manageable in [00:13:15] the structure that we had. Um, and yeah, [00:13:20] and, you know, and we were general Dental, but we, we started to bring in the specialisms [00:13:25] as time went on and as more specialisms developed, because initially there were [00:13:30] very few specialists around in the early 90s, it, it’s grown more and more as time [00:13:35] has gone on. And so you had your specialist only practices that you would [00:13:40] refer your patients to. But like all practices, we started to bring that in-house as [00:13:45] time went on as well. So we wanted to provide a really comprehensive service within [00:13:50] our own ecosystem, if you like.

Payman Langroudi: What interests me, though, is [00:13:55] when I look at your LinkedIn and I see this just cereal [00:14:00] social enterprise serial entrepreneur, [00:14:05] you know, there’s so many things you’ve done since that time that, you know, the [00:14:10] next man might have sat back, had a holiday and [00:14:15] done nothing. But but you keep on doing things. And really what I’m interested [00:14:20] in is that sort of relationship between sort of risk and reward. And I don’t necessarily [00:14:25] even mean financial risk and financial reward. I mean, when a new thing comes along, [00:14:30] you talk to someone somewhere and they say, I don’t know. I looked at one of your things. [00:14:35] It was like trying to make the nursing training pathway better. Yeah. [00:14:40] If someone said that to me, I would look at just the pain [00:14:45] points in that the next man would look at the sort of the opportunities [00:14:50] in that. And so it looks to me like you wouldn’t have done all the things that [00:14:55] you’ve done if you weren’t quite an optimist, number one, but also not [00:15:00] the kind of person who dwells on risk.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I [00:15:05] mean, I think when I was younger, you didn’t I didn’t think about risk because I think what do I have to risk? You know, at the end [00:15:10] of the day, you had nothing to lose. You know, I, I mean, in those days, you could set up [00:15:15] a practice. I sold my car and set up the first practice. That was it. You [00:15:20] know.

Payman Langroudi: You get 100% loan, 110, 110% loan, I remember.

Neil Sikka: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Neil Sikka: So? [00:15:25] So there was no risk to me. I said, well, what have I got to lose? It’s all or nothing. I mean, I was 25 years old. I [00:15:30] wouldn’t think like that now, but I think from [00:15:35] a you talk about the community aspect? I think it’s always been something that’s been close to my heart [00:15:40] trying to, um, I think, you know, I think we’re in a really privileged position [00:15:45] as a clinician, as dentist in healthcare, you know, we’re in a real position to be able to [00:15:50] improve people’s lives. Yeah. And I think when you can do that and really make a difference [00:15:55] to people that just don’t have access to care, um, it’s [00:16:00] really life fulfilling. And that’s why I’ve, I’ve been involved in, [00:16:05] you’ll have seen that I’ve done stuff in India.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So go through that one. There’s a train, the train.

Neil Sikka: So [00:16:10] I mean, it was a simple thing. There’s a train in India called um the Lifeline Express [00:16:15] and it’s a hospital train that parks up in the sidings of a, you [00:16:20] know, you know, that the railways in, in India are the backbone of the country. [00:16:25] Everybody who, you know, the amount of people that travel on trains in India. So [00:16:30] what the train is, is they park on the sidings for, for about six months and they have a hospital, they have [00:16:35] eye surgery, orthopaedic surgery, they have operating theatres on board. [00:16:40] And I saw this and I thought, they don’t have a Dental carriage on the back, do they? So I wrote to them [00:16:45] and I said, I’ve got this idea about, you know, providing dentistry alongside everything [00:16:50] else. And they went, oh, we don’t think there’s a call for it. And I thought, really? Anyway, they [00:16:55] wrote back to me about six months later and said, we thought about your idea and we thought, we’ll try it out. [00:17:00] And we were inundated. Um, well, I wasn’t surprised really, because, you know, [00:17:05] it’s not like there’s an NHS in India providing dental care. It’s the last thing that [00:17:10] people think about. So I said, if you’re willing, you can pay for a dental carriage. We’ll put a couple of [00:17:15] chairs in there, come out for the inauguration treat, treat, um, meet the team and [00:17:20] provide some treatment. What I wanted to do and what I’ve always done in these situations [00:17:25] is I want to plug into an organisation that already has a really good infrastructure where dentistry [00:17:30] could be something you can add on, but it’s not something that once I’ve provided [00:17:35] the initial funding that I have to continue to be involved in, because they can they can [00:17:40] run with it.

Neil Sikka: And that’s what’s happened with the Lifeline Express. They’ve got the Dental carriage on. They, [00:17:45] um, they now they used to accept um international [00:17:50] volunteers. Um and so I used to have a kind of a spreadsheet of people that want to [00:17:55] get involved. And I’d let them know when there was a project going on because they changed their, their, um, their positioning [00:18:00] in the country and, but they plan it quite a long way ahead. Um, [00:18:05] and so, um, they, what they do now [00:18:10] is that they plan ahead, contact the local um, hospital, dental hospital, [00:18:15] college and get medical and dental volunteers to come and work because [00:18:20] they have to, when they’re doing orthopaedic surgery or something like that, you’ve got quite a lot of planning. You’ve got to know your cases, [00:18:25] you’ve got to know what you’re going to, who you’re going to treat, what you’re going to do about aftercare. All these things [00:18:30] are really important, um, less so for dentistry if you’re doing, which is pretty [00:18:35] much what we’re doing is emergency care because the call, you know, is so large, so [00:18:40] many people don’t get any access to care. And when you see the people that you treat there that have been [00:18:45] suffering and, and some of them have walked for miles and miles to get there. [00:18:50] And then they’re sitting in a 50 degree heat outside on the platform, waiting [00:18:55] for us in a nice air conditioned carriage to come out and get them in. You realise how [00:19:00] important it is to them. So, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You paid [00:19:05] for that personally. Yeah. And just as an act of philanthropy. [00:19:10]

Neil Sikka: Well, yeah. But it was something that gave me incredible joy to be involved [00:19:15] in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it did. Um, have you heard about giving directly?

Neil Sikka: No. [00:19:20] Is that a is that a platform or is it a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a charity. But the idea is that, um, [00:19:25] that guy who’s got the toothache if you give him. $20 [00:19:30] directly. Give him the cash.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: $20? [00:19:35] Yeah, he’ll spend it better than you can. Yeah. [00:19:40] Because he’ll he’ll go find the local dentist guy who’ll pull his tooth out for $2. [00:19:45] Right. But the cost of you and that train and all that is so much [00:19:50] higher than giving each of those patients that you treated $20 [00:19:55] to go and find their own. Now, now, of course you don’t. You don’t actually feel the [00:20:00] difference that you’re making. Yeah. But interesting idea that, you know, that me [00:20:05] going over somewhere, paying for something and providing [00:20:10] the service that I think people need is a lot less efficient than me dropping [00:20:15] $20 in someone’s hand.

Neil Sikka: I would probably challenge that. I mean, I [00:20:20] paid for the carriage and the and the units to go on there, but we’ve treated over half a million people. [00:20:25] So I think what I would have to spend to give [00:20:30] people a certain amount of money to then spend on their teeth would be far more than the half a [00:20:35] million people that we’ve treated on the Lifeline Express. And also, you’ve got [00:20:40] to remember you, you give someone $20, how do you know they’re going to spend it on their teeth?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, it’s [00:20:45] not for you to decide that.

Neil Sikka: That’s also.

Payman Langroudi: True. It is not for you to decide.

Neil Sikka: I [00:20:50] suppose for me, it’s like, you know, I have a skill, I have knowledge and [00:20:55] I have experience, and I want to use that for the benefit of those people [00:21:00] that can access it. So for me, I can give that money to [00:21:05] anyone anyway, regardless, but I’d want to use my skills and experience to [00:21:10] benefit people.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. Of course I get it. I just think it’s an interesting thing, [00:21:15] you know, that if you do the do the maths, that you’re challenging the maths. Of course, half [00:21:20] a million sounds like a lot of humans.

Neil Sikka: It’s a lot of people and they’re incredibly efficient. I [00:21:25] think I started it in 2010. So 15 years.

Speaker 4: It’s not that long for half [00:21:30] a million people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s very interesting. So do you still go back or not?

Neil Sikka: I haven’t [00:21:35] been back for a few years now, not since Covid. But I do other things. Um, [00:21:40] I worked on a, I volunteered and I didn’t provide anything to that [00:21:45] thing called mercy ships. I don’t know if you’ve heard of mercy ships, where they go around Africa and they park up [00:21:50] this massive great cruise liner, which has incredible funding, amazing operating [00:21:55] theatres. I mean, that is one very slick operation. And what they do is they take [00:22:00] over, um, part of a hospital on land and turn it into a kind of a ten surgery, [00:22:05] mobile practice, dental practice, ten chairs. And then people fly in for 2 or 3 weeks [00:22:10] and give their time. I mean, that’s an incredible experience. I was, I was rude because [00:22:15] you all stay on the on the ship. And I was rooming with a plastic surgeon from California [00:22:20] who had come in and flown in for a month to treat non-malignant tumours. [00:22:25] Surgical tumours that in in the West you would treat immediately. [00:22:30] But they sit there for years and years and years in Africa. So that’s you know, but the [00:22:35] I think and I haven’t done a lot of international stuff more recently because [00:22:40] we’re very embedded with Dentaid. So Dentaid [00:22:45] is another charity that I supported right at the beginning 2005, 2006, and [00:22:50] I helped them to design a chair that’s still in use.

Neil Sikka: Because if you imagine most, most [00:22:55] charities, when they go and do these, um, these kind of camps, [00:23:00] they’ll be using plastic chairs and whatever. And actually it’s very difficult when you’re trying to extract [00:23:05] teeth or you’re trying to do treatment when you haven’t got any support behind you. So we designed a chair [00:23:10] which had a which, which you headrest, a headrest at the back, but also flat seating as well. [00:23:15] So it was almost like a reclining chair, but it was hand winched. And [00:23:20] they still sell that chair now in Dentaid. But we’re I mean, I’ve always been a massive [00:23:25] supporter of Dental and, and, um, volunteered with them, but with [00:23:30] my relationship through Bupa, they are now our main charity partner for Bupa Dental [00:23:35] Care. So we’ve funded, um, a solar panel powered unit, which is much [00:23:40] more lightweight that can go into much more, um, difficult to reach places, um, [00:23:45] city centres where, you know, they’ve got, they’ve got paid massive, they get charged massive congestion [00:23:50] charges unless they’ve got a um, a Ulez compliant um van. [00:23:55] We provide volunteers all over the country and that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Through Bupa. [00:24:00]

Neil Sikka: Through Bupa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So, you know, that was the way that I saw it when I came, when I, when I first we [00:24:05] created a foundation charity committee, which is funded by a, a big [00:24:10] kind of main foundation, but we have our own dental charity foundation. And [00:24:15] I pushed and I became the chair of it initially. And, um, and I said, [00:24:20] I think this is the perfect match because we have 8000 people [00:24:25] all over the country. Um, they need volunteers all the time. And [00:24:30] we can provide those opportunities to our staff, to our clinicians, to our staff, [00:24:35] to volunteer to work on these units. And I regularly volunteer with them.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the typical [00:24:40] time amount of time that a clinician might give to that?

Neil Sikka: Well, not as much [00:24:45] as you’d like, I suppose, but a week. No, we just do a day a day literally. Because you know, [00:24:50] the whole point initially they were all a Dentaid were only based really in the South, um [00:24:55] around Southampton way. Um, but as they’ve grown, they started with just one unit. They’ve [00:25:00] now got 12 mobile units going all over the country. We’ve taken them to Northern Ireland, to [00:25:05] our practices there and our volunteers um have got involved there. We’ve now got a northern hub [00:25:10] where we’re providing treatment in Yorkshire and further north. And they’re all, you [00:25:15] know, they’re like these, all these vans going all over the country now providing free treatment to the homeless [00:25:20] and the vulnerable. Our job is to support them financially, provide volunteers, [00:25:25] and what they do is the logistics. They do all the organisation, they do the liaison [00:25:30] with the charities. Because ultimately, if you’re a clinician and you turn up, you want to treat patients, [00:25:35] you don’t want to be sitting there, you’re giving your time for a day, but you can just give a day. Um, [00:25:40] and they have different camps on different days.

Payman Langroudi: So every dentist knows that they’ve got that opportunity. [00:25:45] If they want to give their time, they can through you and Dental.

Neil Sikka: And [00:25:50] not just the dentists the nurses can volunteer to work on. And also the other [00:25:55] great thing is that they’re always looking for logistics support as well. So people to take medical histories, people [00:26:00] to drive the vans. So you if you’re even if you’re non-clinical, you can [00:26:05] still get involved.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. So I’ve always thought this year that if there was a easily [00:26:10] accessible way for, let’s just call it young dentists [00:26:15] to give a day, a week, a fortnight to give their skills [00:26:20] loads and loads and loads would do it. And I know there is, but it’s [00:26:25] not publicised properly. I’m going to this thing. Mobile smiles. Charity [00:26:30] thing.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: They they take people to. I don’t know Egypt and Namibia and [00:26:35] so forth. And it’s a kind of a ten day thing and it’s half of it is charity. And [00:26:40] then half of it, they go on holiday sort of thing. And I can understand why [00:26:45] a lot of people would do that if they knew about it. Right.

Neil Sikka: There’s a there’s a lot of that. [00:26:50] There are so many kind of oral health related charities that provide that kind [00:26:55] of opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: Linda Greenwald does something as well.

Neil Sikka: Linda does something, I think. And, um, [00:27:00] is it Mateusz? Uh, he, he has something in Africa that he provides. [00:27:05] There’s something that’s going on in, uh, in the Caribbean. I know that one of our dentists is involved. [00:27:10] There’s so many things like that going on. Bridge to aid, of course, has been around a long time. Even [00:27:15] Dental aid work in Cambodia. They work in Uganda, so they provide there [00:27:20] not just UK based. They’re very international as well in terms of. And they’ve grown enormously. [00:27:25] Um I always think that’s it’s great, but then you’ve got, if [00:27:30] you want to go abroad and do that, that’s, that’s kind of a week of your time. Yeah. As opposed to just say, [00:27:35] oh, I’ll do a day. Yeah. Which is, which is also a great thing to do as well.

Payman Langroudi: Crisis at Christmas. Yes. [00:27:40]

Neil Sikka: Another one. I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I that was in South London Boxing Day. [00:27:45] Um again really you know it’s it’s so easy for us [00:27:50] to do I, but I do it is interesting though when people ask me, I say, [00:27:55] well what actually treatment do you do? I say, well, I do a lot of extractions. And they go especially the some of the younger [00:28:00] dentists that maybe haven’t, you know, if you haven’t had the experience, there’s a potentially [00:28:05] sometimes a little bit of, um, reticence there. Yeah. Um, so [00:28:10] there is that bit of a barrier sometimes because of the type of treatment that you will be providing to a [00:28:15] lot of people.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Tell me about your upbringing.

Neil Sikka: So [00:28:20] I’m Indian born and bred. So my dad, uh, [00:28:25] is a was an eye surgeon. He came over from India in the late 50s. [00:28:30] Um, and he did his, he wanted [00:28:35] to do his FRCs, Royal College of Surgeons. So you couldn’t do that in India. [00:28:40] He did that here and he stayed. And he got a consultant post in Lincolnshire.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were [00:28:45] born.

Neil Sikka: Uh, as I was born.

Payman Langroudi: As you were born. So I was you were born here.

Neil Sikka: I was born in Bradford.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh. [00:28:50]

Neil Sikka: Um, and then at six months old, he got the consultant post. He was a senior registrar in Bradford Royal [00:28:55] Infirmary. He then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which was no mean feat for an Indian [00:29:00] back then.

Neil Sikka: Well, it was interesting, actually, because, um, you know, there were very [00:29:05] few Asian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um clinicians in the UK at that time. And [00:29:10] I think he was one of two Asian consultants that were appointed. Um, [00:29:15] and I mean, there’s a bit of a story behind that. He was appointed, um, [00:29:20] I think it was 1964. Um. 6364 [00:29:25] and he went for his interview and they appointed him. And then um, [00:29:30] when the local medical community found out that he was Indian, there was a massive uproar [00:29:35] and they tried to remove him, but his, um, he had a, um, [00:29:40] um, he had a reference from a, a professor at [00:29:45] Moorfields and the professor wrote to them and said, you know, you have to give me a very good reason [00:29:50] why you’re not giving him this job, having already appointed him. So he was then reappointed [00:29:55] and he was there for until until he died. And my mum’s [00:30:00] a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: As well as well.

Neil Sikka: We actually have 49 I think at last count, 49 [00:30:05] medically qualified people in our family.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of doctor is your mum?

Neil Sikka: Uh, [00:30:10] she was, she did all sorts. She was GP Psychiatry. Sexual health. [00:30:15] She’s done everything. I mean, she worked. She’s not she’s still alive. She’s. She lives [00:30:20] up in Lincolnshire in the family house. And she was working until Covid aged [00:30:25] 89.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Neil Sikka: And even now I say to her, she says to me, I’d still be working if it wasn’t [00:30:30] for Covid. And I’m like, mum, you’re 93.

Payman Langroudi: So childhood memories of [00:30:35] a kid who’s got two incredibly busy doctor parents. I [00:30:40] guess for you, it just felt normal that, you know, your, your, your [00:30:45] job takes over your life. I mean, but for doctors, it really does. With surgeons [00:30:50] particularly, right?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, like you didn’t see your dad very much. Well, I, I. [00:30:55]

Neil Sikka: I probably saw him a reasonable amount, but, [00:31:00] um, I think my mum probably worked even longer hours than my dad really. [00:31:05] I mean, but they, they, they juggled it and they made it work. I mean, I had two older sisters [00:31:10] And, um, so I was five years younger than my, my first [00:31:15] sister and then my other sister was, um, nine years older than me, so they were [00:31:20] around a bit. Um, but I was, I was at home until I was 11 [00:31:25] and then I went to boarding school. So then, you know, and I think they did that because they [00:31:30] were my, both my sisters were much older by then. And my, um, [00:31:35] parents probably thought, you know, you’re going to be at home a bit on your own. So this is a good idea. And I, [00:31:40] and I loved, you know, I loved sport, I loved music and being in a boarding school environment [00:31:45] was great for me because I was just kept busy every single moment of the day.

Payman Langroudi: You took to that. Well [00:31:50] did.

Neil Sikka: You? I took to it really well.

Payman Langroudi: Not everyone does.

Neil Sikka: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Which school was it?

Neil Sikka: A place called Oundle, [00:31:55] which is near Oundle. Oh, UNDN okay. Which is near Peterborough.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:32:00] So it’s kind of close to home.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Two hours? Yeah, two hours from Grimsby, [00:32:05] which is where home was.

Payman Langroudi: And so this sort of, uh, can do attitude [00:32:10] that you’ve got.

Neil Sikka: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Can you put it back [00:32:15] to some point in childhood? I mean, were you always that.

Neil Sikka: No, I don’t think I was. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: What was the inflection point that made you turn into this person that, you know, like sort of I [00:32:25] mean, I know maybe you don’t want to be characterised as this, but I would say a risk taker. [00:32:30] You know, someone, someone, someone, someone who thinks outside the box completely and, [00:32:35] you know, get stuff done and then even the charitable side of it. Like what did [00:32:40] you see the roots of that?

Neil Sikka: Well, you know, I was [00:32:45] not particularly academic. I wasn’t particularly, um, [00:32:50] focussed, if I’m honest. Um, but I think it was when I went to university, [00:32:55] I just loved doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study.

Neil Sikka: Uh Leeds and I, [00:33:00] and I loved, um.

Payman Langroudi: I love which student were you? The swotty one. [00:33:05]

Neil Sikka: No, I wouldn’t say I was the most No, [00:33:10] I don’t think so. I was I was kind of middle of the range. I [00:33:15] think I did enough, but I also enjoyed what I did and I loved the practical side of [00:33:20] it. Um, and, and, and I probably loved the people side of it [00:33:25] too. Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the side of dentistry I miss since I stopped, you [00:33:30] know. So we were talking before that you still doing one day a week?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was doing one day a week [00:33:35] from around 22,007 to [00:33:40] 2012 when I, when I completely stopped. And, um, [00:33:45] then I had a bad day, basically.

Neil Sikka: And then you thought, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: It enough, you know? [00:33:50] Um, but I do miss it. And it’s only when you fully stop that you realise [00:33:55] what you do miss about the job. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting telling [00:34:00] me the thing they love about the job. Sometimes the thing I hated most about the job is [00:34:05] what someone else loved about it. For instance, I’m not that interested in Meccano [00:34:10] like, you know.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Putting the the full mouth rehab in and it all fits. [00:34:15] I’m sure it’s great when you’ve you’ve the guy behind the whole thing. Yeah. But I was never I never got far enough in the industry [00:34:20] to be that guy.

Neil Sikka: Me neither.

Payman Langroudi: But the conversations [00:34:25] and maybe this is why I do a podcast now, the conversations you have with patients [00:34:30] are golden, but you don’t really realise it when you’re a dentist. [00:34:35] When you’re a dentist, in a way, people are in the way of your job in a way. Um, [00:34:40] but I only realised how much I learned from my patients and, [00:34:45] you know, just the social interaction with all different parts of society [00:34:50] that you get by being a general dentist. Yeah. Whether private or NHS, [00:34:55] you get to meet all different types of people and understand [00:35:00] different things from their lives. And then as the families grow up and all that. [00:35:05] And I was in private dentistry. The nice thing about private dentistry is that talking to your patient is a big part of [00:35:10] the job.

Neil Sikka: Oh, definitely. It’s building that relationship. I mean, I do a day a week now. I’ve [00:35:15] been doing a day a week. It’s funny, every when I, when I started the business, I said, I’m going to give up [00:35:20] a day, a week for every practice that I open. But once I got to five, I said, I’m not giving up any more days. So [00:35:25] I stopped till one day a week, but I didn’t. I haven’t seen any new patients for probably 25 [00:35:30] years.

Payman Langroudi: So they’re just your friends?

Neil Sikka: Well, I mean, I do see a [00:35:35] lot of family and friends, but a lot of them have become friends.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I mean.

Neil Sikka: As [00:35:40] well, because and it’s really, it takes quite a long time to get to know people. You think. Oh, a couple of years and you [00:35:45] know, you’ll know them really well, but you’re only seeing a snapshot of them. That’s right. For twice a year, [00:35:50] if you, you know, unless you’re doing in depth treatment. Um, but and it takes [00:35:55] that long time, but I’ve got this group now who I just love to see. You know, I love to [00:36:00] hear what they’re up to, how the family’s doing. I see that kids, I see some of their grandkids. [00:36:05] Um, and that’s a, you know, it’s a, and I’m just a solid [00:36:10] general dentist that tries to do the right thing for their patients. I’m not I mean, I have [00:36:15] embraced technology, you know, and I, one of my roles at Bupa is to look at innovation [00:36:20] and how we can apply that, um, efficiently within [00:36:25] our dental practice environment, which is advantageous for our clinicians, but also for our [00:36:30] patients and for the business. Um, so I have, I embrace technology, [00:36:35] but I wouldn’t say I’m like, well, like you said, I don’t do big full mouth rehabs or anything [00:36:40] like that. We’ve got plenty of specialists in the business that can do all that. Um, but I’ve tried [00:36:45] to look after my patients in the right way. The only thing now is I, you know, [00:36:50] when you see someone for 30 years, you start to look at the stuff you did 20 years ago that’s [00:36:55] still there. And you go.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s the best teacher. It’s the best teacher.

Neil Sikka: I’m gonna have to start looking at this [00:37:00] now, stuff that is starting to need replacing.

Payman Langroudi: The best teacher. Yeah. Because [00:37:05] sometimes, I mean, the longest I ever stayed anywhere was three, four years. But even in three, four years, [00:37:10] some stuff failed. Oh, some stuff failed. Yeah. And and it teaches you and it’s interesting. [00:37:15] We have a bit in this podcast. You said you’d listened before about mistakes. Yeah. And to try [00:37:20] and learn from each other’s mistakes a little bit because we tend to hide mistakes [00:37:25] in medical generally. You know, that black box thinking idea, you know that it’s [00:37:30] all about blame in medical, isn’t it?

Speaker 5: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what comes to mind? Let’s [00:37:35] let’s get to that darker part of the pod. What comes to mind mistakes wise clinically? [00:37:40] I think something that changed the way you practice.

Neil Sikka: I think you’re absolutely [00:37:45] right. You learn from your mistakes. And I will often see stuff that I’ve [00:37:50] done even five years ago. And you know what? I can do that better now. So I challenge myself [00:37:55] to come to improve all the time. And if I’m not doing that, [00:38:00] then I’m not doing right by my patients. So but I still have stuff that I’m seeing [00:38:05] that I did 30 years ago that’s still going strong. And my patients, especially when I say [00:38:10] to them, you know, this is only going to last ten years. And they, they laugh at me when they come and say, you’re not making any money out of me, Neil. [00:38:15] That’s okay. But I think what’s interesting about mistakes is [00:38:20] the approach to being a clinician. And I think we talk about [00:38:25] clinical excellence as being the most important thing. But I kind of I [00:38:30] think what I’ve learned as time has gone on, and especially having to run [00:38:35] my own business with, you know, lots of clinicians from different types of backgrounds [00:38:40] and different types of approaches is not so much about clinical excellence, but [00:38:45] how you become an excellent clinician. And, you know, we’re [00:38:50] in the medical profession, love our alliterative mnemonics. You know, we [00:38:55] remember the facial nerves and the cranial nerves and the things that we can’t repeat [00:39:00] now and how we remembered them.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I always think now, and I try [00:39:05] and I use that, I still use that same approach and I think about what makes an [00:39:10] excellent clinician as opposed to clinical excellence. And I think about, you know, obviously your clinical skills have got [00:39:15] to be really important. But then I think your commercial skills, you’ve got to understand your [00:39:20] value to yourself, your value to the patient and your value to the business that you work [00:39:25] in. Um, I think you’ve got to, as I said, you’ve got to constantly want [00:39:30] to improve. So that’s not just about looking at your work and saying, how could have [00:39:35] I done that better? A few years down the line. But also CPD is really important. And [00:39:40] then I think the fourth one is communication. You know, you’ve got to be [00:39:45] a good communicator or learn how to be a good communicator, a good listener to your patients, [00:39:50] but also to the people that you work with. You can’t be a good team member unless you’re a good communicator. [00:39:55] And I think finally, compassion. I think we’re in a profession [00:40:00] where we have to be compassionate. And if we can do those five things, I think those are the the [00:40:05] basic tenets of being an excellent clinician.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I want some examples of where one [00:40:10] of those things failed.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God, I probably miss it. I mean, I can’t remember [00:40:15] the last time I’ve actually looked at a treatment as, as completely failed apart [00:40:20] from actually, no, that’s not true. Um, there was an implant, um, [00:40:25] that had failed implants. No, I don’t place I restore, but I can remember [00:40:30] recently where an implant had failed on a patient. And the reason why it [00:40:35] had probably failed was because I hadn’t realised what a bruxas they were. And so [00:40:40] I produced a cram, put it in place and the implant looked perfect. Um, I thought [00:40:45] the restoration was perfect. A year later, the implant basically fell out. Um, [00:40:50] and looking at his bite again, um, it was probably [00:40:55] down to the fact that I hadn’t properly adjusted the occlusion to allow [00:41:00] for his bruxism. So that’s a simple.

Payman Langroudi: The cause of most mistakes, even [00:41:05] in bleaching.

Neil Sikka: But then you are still learning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The most important thing in [00:41:10] bleaching is bruxism. Can you believe it? Ridiculous. It just gets in the way, doesn’t [00:41:15] it? At every turn. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And probably one of the most misunderstood [00:41:20] elements of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So, okay, there was that case. [00:41:25] Do you want to talk about business mistakes, like in the Barbican [00:41:30] years? Did you. Was there what was the darkest day?

Neil Sikka: I [00:41:35] think one of the darkest days is one of my corporate [00:41:40] clients rang up, really concerned about the [00:41:45] treatment that one of their employees had received from one of my dentists. And there was [00:41:50] an underlying theme that they might pull the whole contract, even though I had 2000 employees on [00:41:55] a Dental plan.

Payman Langroudi: Over one patient, what was the situation?

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:42:00] the dentist had, um, fitted a crown post crown and said, [00:42:05] oh, this will last you forever. And it fell out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. [00:42:10]

Neil Sikka: Never say that. Especially about a.

Payman Langroudi: Crown.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And [00:42:15] it would come out and the but the patient had kicked up a fuss [00:42:20] and they were very senior in the organisation. And so that was quite [00:42:25] a dark moment. And I managed to to pull it back and um they remained a client [00:42:30] for the rest of the time. Um and I think that was quite tough.

Payman Langroudi: It must [00:42:35] have been a darker moment than that though.

Neil Sikka: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not have like a, I don’t know, a senior member [00:42:40] of staff suddenly leave?

Neil Sikka: Well, I had a, I had a quite a difficult period. [00:42:45] I had a, um, you know, I had a partner at the beginning and we [00:42:50] didn’t get on. Um and it was for both of us, I think it was, it was a [00:42:55] dark time. It wasn’t just me. Um, and I think we just weren’t well matched. We [00:43:00] were put together, we didn’t really know each other. And um, you know, that was quite [00:43:05] a dark time to try and extricate both of ourselves in the [00:43:10] right way. Um, from that.

Payman Langroudi: How many practices in were you before that [00:43:15] happened?

Neil Sikka: Uh, two practices.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so very early on. And were you 50/50 partners? [00:43:20] Mhm. Yeah. I guess that must have been a challenge, right?

Neil Sikka: But I, you know, we sorted [00:43:25] it out, moved forward.

Payman Langroudi: You’re no longer friends. You [00:43:30] were never friends in the first place.

Neil Sikka: I think we were ever really friends, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know how some people [00:43:35] can do business with anybody? And then other people, myself [00:43:40] included, can only do business with people you fully trust? Um, [00:43:45] do you know what I mean by that? I’ve got some friends there. Like they’re on the they’ve got [00:43:50] a share in 1214 companies. And I’m like, well, how the hell did you [00:43:55] come across 14 different people like that, that you fully trust and trust isn’t even part of it. [00:44:00] They just get their bit done. Yeah. And they make sure everyone else [00:44:05] does their bit and that’s that end of it. Whereas for me, it feels like almost [00:44:10] like a marriage and you have to fully trust this person.

Neil Sikka: And, and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Probably a more [00:44:15] unsuccessful way of living.

Neil Sikka: I’m a bit of the, I probably, I learned early on actually, [00:44:20] um, from somebody that and I was like, you, I thought you have to [00:44:25] get on really well and have to be buddies and kind of friends. Yeah. With people that you do [00:44:30] business with. And I learned from very on because I, there was somebody I was negotiating with, um, [00:44:35] who was really, I didn’t, didn’t like very much at all. And I don’t think he liked me [00:44:40] and, and um, he said that to me once he said, he said, the thing is, Neil, you don’t really [00:44:45] understand. Um, and I was quite young at the time and he said, you don’t understand Neil. You know, you [00:44:50] don’t have to like the people you do business with. You just have to get the job done. Yeah. And I kind of [00:44:55] learned that because I’m not going out for dinner with you. I’m not going out for a beer. As long as we are both, um, [00:45:00] fulfilling our needs to that relationship, that’s all [00:45:05] you need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um, and I think in [00:45:10] certain situations that works really well, but I think it does help a lot [00:45:15] with the people that you work with within a business. So the people that you employ, for instance, [00:45:20] whatever that you, you like and trust them, I think that’s a different relationship than, [00:45:25] um, you know, kind of business relationships in terms of contract relationships [00:45:30] with external providers.

Payman Langroudi: How did you take to going from, you know, a [00:45:35] small business to a gigantic business like Bupa? Did you, you know, manage the [00:45:40] sort of politics, call it the corporate speak the [00:45:45] way that I don’t know, in huge organisations, you really aren’t free to say what you want. Whereas [00:45:50] in your own business you were ahead of that business. You probably. I did, [00:45:55] you did it go easily for you or did you find it quite funny?

Neil Sikka: My wife is the one that says [00:46:00] that you. I find it really surprising that you transferred from being an owner manager of quite a large business [00:46:05] to being, um, you know, an employee effectively within [00:46:10] a and, and I have to say, I, [00:46:15] I don’t know if it would have worked for me 25 years ago because I was quite [00:46:20] headstrong in terms of what I wanted to do, where I was going, how I was going to get there. But I [00:46:25] loved being part of a team. Now, you know, I’m a cog in a wheel as opposed [00:46:30] to the only person that’s effectively driving the car.

Payman Langroudi: You you don’t get sleepless nights [00:46:35] like you used to, I suppose. Not in the.

Neil Sikka: Same.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

Neil Sikka: I probably you know, it’s interesting you [00:46:40] say that I probably, um, I never used to worry at all. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: I probably it’s not within you.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s I think with age you become more of a worrier. [00:46:50] I don’t know, maybe I don’t know, but sometimes I’m more anxious than I probably used to be about [00:46:55] much bigger things.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. Yeah. That’s interesting.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So it’s, it is [00:47:00] interesting. But I, I, you know, I really enjoy being part of an organisation [00:47:05] that I love being part of. I mean, for me, the biggest thing about Bupa is it [00:47:10] doesn’t have shareholders doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Pay.

Neil Sikka: Dividends.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very different corporate isn’t it?

Neil Sikka: A very different structure. And [00:47:15] that’s what I love about it. It means that we are there trying to really [00:47:20] at the bottom line, when you know, our strapline is longer, happier, healthier lives, brave, caring, [00:47:25] responsible, um, and ultimately it permeates the fact [00:47:30] that we don’t have shareholders, we don’t pay dividends. That idea permeates throughout the whole business [00:47:35] because we’re not just doing it for the sake of these shareholders. They’re getting paid all this money at the top. [00:47:40] So it all goes back into the business for the benefit. So I really like that. [00:47:45] Um, you know, it’s a wonderful experience. So for me, it’s, it’s been, [00:47:50] it’s not been a difficult transition in many ways. And I think it’s [00:47:55] the funniest thing is I think a lot of people find difficult is when they own a practice [00:48:00] and then they sell it and they still working in that practice and things aren’t done the way that they want them to be done. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The classic. Right.

Neil Sikka: It’s funny, I was like, so I still work in the same [00:48:10] practice that I, I put in place. I merged a couple of practices about 15 years [00:48:15] ago in that same building as the one that I work in, in central London, in Moorgate. And [00:48:20] now, and even when I, as soon as I sold it, it was like, well, that’s not [00:48:25] my problem. Now when something I don’t have to deal with that. And I was like, actually, that’s quite a breath of fresh air. Yeah, [00:48:30] I can come in. I concentrate on my dentistry. If there’s a problem, I highlight it, [00:48:35] but it’s not my job to deal with it. Whereas it was always my job.

Payman Langroudi: Ultimately [00:48:40] was your.

Neil Sikka: Job. Everything was my job. Yeah. You know, the buck always stopped with me at some stage. [00:48:45] Yeah. So you had to be on top of it all. But we have a very large organisation [00:48:50] now, so 8000 people in Bupa dental care alone.

Payman Langroudi: What do you struggle with [00:48:55] at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: What do I struggle with? [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Not you only.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I think, you know, I think it’s the nature of any large organisation [00:49:05] is agility. Yeah. Get things done quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: We’ve [00:49:10] often got to jump through many more hoops than I’d like to implement something, [00:49:15] put a pilot in place, put a new product in. That kind [00:49:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Is used to it now.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I accept it and [00:49:25] I understand the reasons why. I mean, our brand, you know, we are the leading healthcare particularly strong. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a particularly.

Neil Sikka: It’s also means we’ve got, we have a responsibility [00:49:35] to ensure that it stays strong. Yeah. And that means our governance and our compliance [00:49:40] and our, you know, our processes have to be such that we don’t put the [00:49:45] brand at risk. And so as an entrepreneur, I’m like, [00:49:50] come on, let’s just get this done and let’s just try it in a couple of practices and move on. You know, let’s do this. [00:49:55] But our processes don’t allow us to do that because our head is above the parapet. [00:50:00] You know, we’re easily shot down. And you know, if some if someone’s [00:50:05] going to go for anyone in terms of regulation and compliance, they’re going to come for us. So I, [00:50:10] you know, it’s something you have to accept, but it is something that I’ve, I’ve always found challenging [00:50:15] because I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be difficult, right? Because you’re always acting from a defensive posture rather [00:50:20] than from an attacking posture, you know, as a, as, as the entrepreneur, that [00:50:25] you were 1 to 10 practices in ten years and, you know, great new [00:50:30] ideas and all of that. It’s a sort of an attack. It’s like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a like, [00:50:35] like I said before, it’s, it’s having sort of the future is brighter than, you know, let’s just go for it. [00:50:40]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’m still the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, you know, you said it doesn’t have any shareholders. But, you know, [00:50:45] the brand is the shareholder in a way, isn’t it? Yeah. And it must be hard to make that transition. [00:50:50] At the same time, you’re right in that it doesn’t feel like another corporate when when when [00:50:55] you talk to the people at Bupa, they’re not just about [00:51:00] the bottom line, which a lot of corporates feel like they are. I mean, but I don’t mean [00:51:05] corporate dentists, even just companies.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, we I mean, we still [00:51:10] have to think about the bottom line. We have to, in order to in like in any business, [00:51:15] if you have to be able to make money to be able to reinvest for the benefit of [00:51:20] everybody. Yeah. But I think for me, I think I, I find that, [00:51:25] um, I, I still will have ideas, I still will push things forward, [00:51:30] but it’s not for me to say, no, you can’t do that. Someone else will say, no, we’re going to do this [00:51:35] this way. And we’re going to do have a policy and process in place to ensure that we do it properly. I say fine, I’ll just keep [00:51:40] bringing the ideas to the table. My job is to look at innovation, look at the future, look [00:51:45] at how the mouth body connection is going to change the way that we deliver dentistry [00:51:50] in the future. There’s somebody else’s job to say, whoa, let’s just [00:51:55] take one step at a time. So, and that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: So I can I come to that unbelievable training [00:52:00] academy?

Neil Sikka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, when was it? A month ago or so. Unbelievable. [00:52:05] Thank you. Really beautiful. And and not just pretty. [00:52:10] It wasn’t. It wasn’t about that. It was. It was well thought out. And I came away from it thinking [00:52:15] that, you know, only a Bupa could have done what [00:52:20] you guys did there, you know. So, you know, living up to your USP in [00:52:25] a way, what you said about the insurance product and the dental product, only Bupa can connect those [00:52:30] two dots because you have both sides, right? But knowing how slow things can [00:52:35] be, how long ago was the first time someone said, let’s do a training centre.

Neil Sikka: You know.

Payman Langroudi: How long [00:52:40] did that take?

Neil Sikka: I was surprised at how quick it went, really. I think it was. I remember the [00:52:45] first calls saying, do you think a training centre for us? Because they were looking [00:52:50] at all the business units and they were trying to put it all under one roof in terms of Bupa campus, [00:52:55] we call it. Yeah. And then the training academy would sit under the campus because [00:53:00] and they would and they were looking at all the business units, and they were asking [00:53:05] me and the other members of the team, do you think of Dental Training Academy would be of use and and [00:53:10] why? And basically, you know, we know that, um, there’s [00:53:15] a real challenge in terms of recruiting and retaining clinicians all around the country. And [00:53:20] we’re all competing for that for that pie. Um, so how can we separate ourselves? [00:53:25] So absolutely. I was right behind it. But I think, you know, I think start to finish probably 18 [00:53:30] months.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Neil Sikka: No, I was I was blown over. Unless I’ve missed a year, I might have missed a year. It [00:53:35] feels like 18 months to me. It feels like it. And it’s been [00:53:40] you know, it’s been phenomenal because you talked about it. So many people externally have [00:53:45] talked about it. And that’s what we want because we want the industry, the Dental industry to take [00:53:50] us seriously, that we’re committed to really, you know, enabling [00:53:55] our clinical workforce to grow and develop. Um, and this is, you know, this is a [00:54:00] perfect way of doing it. So, you know, I was, I have to say, looking back, it’s probably one [00:54:05] of the quickest things we implemented.

Payman Langroudi: Very impressive. I mean, there was the virtual reality [00:54:10] piece. Yeah, there was this amazing projection mapping room.

Neil Sikka: Oh yeah. That room where you’re just [00:54:15] completely surrounded and then you just touch things on the.

Payman Langroudi: Wall and you move stuff around. And [00:54:20] for me, it wasn’t even what was being shown there. It was the possibilities. [00:54:25] Yeah. You know, like what could happen in a room like that? Because it’s all, I mean, to describe [00:54:30] it to people like the all four walls were a complete projection that you [00:54:35] could have anything touch. You could touch the wall and move anything around. You could get inside [00:54:40] the mouth, rotate things just.

Neil Sikka: From a training perspective. Amazing. Make it really [00:54:45] interactive so anyone can, you know, you can say right Payman you go and tell me, talk to [00:54:50] me, talk me through this, how you do this treatment here. And you have to do it by touching the wall. And [00:54:55] it’s amazing. I mean, the way technology is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you call that room?

Neil Sikka: I’m not sure. [00:55:00] Maybe the interactive room.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure. Something like that.

Neil Sikka: Something like that. [00:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s stunning. Really, really, really stunning. Yeah. And I thought I wasn’t expecting things to be [00:55:10] like that. I really wasn’t there was the mannequins that were breathing and.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:55:15] Or fogging up your mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So interesting, so [00:55:20] interesting. So where do you see the future for you? Have [00:55:25] you got a plan or are you just loving life and you’re just.

Neil Sikka: Well, in terms of professionally, [00:55:30] personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’m a, I’m in a I’m [00:55:35] in a good place, if I’m honest. I only took this role on a, I see I’ve been the chief dental [00:55:40] officer for 11 years since 2014, but [00:55:45] I only took this new role on um, when Mark decided Mark Allen, I chief executive, [00:55:50] decided that he was going to form this clinical advisory team because he said he didn’t at that time, um, [00:55:55] have any clinical representation on the board. And he realised that we needed a clinical [00:56:00] voice.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy when you think about it. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was the one that recognised it. We did have previously a clinical director, [00:56:05] but then when they left they didn’t replace in the same way. And they wanted the teams to work in a different way. [00:56:10] So they needed that board representation because otherwise, [00:56:15] you know, you know what it’s like in an operating environment. You need to have an [00:56:20] understanding of, of how things will be applied on a clinical level, not just within a, [00:56:25] within the clinical level, but also how reception teams are going to work with a new [00:56:30] new process, your practice managers, all that kind of stuff. So we need to have that and that’s [00:56:35] been great. So we are that clinical voice to the board. I love that. And that’s [00:56:40] only a year and a half in.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your group of four.

Neil Sikka: That’s my gang of four. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you Annie. [00:56:45]

Neil Sikka: Me. Annie. Annie is our head of general dentistry. Um, Caitlin is our head of hygiene [00:56:50] and therapy, and Amelia is our head of dental nursing. And so we’re the we’re [00:56:55] the for people that represent the clinical workforce to the senior leadership.

Payman Langroudi: And part of your [00:57:00] job is to go out and talk to loads of people and feedback.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I’ve just spent two days [00:57:05] up in Yorkshire travelling around a whole load of our practices there. Um talking to [00:57:10] clinicians, talking to the practice managers. We had a lovely dinner together, really just [00:57:15] helping, you know, understanding where are the pain points, where are the challenges. You don’t get [00:57:20] that on a teams call. You get it by sitting down and having a proper chat and, and [00:57:25] really investing the time and then feeding that back. Um, as to, [00:57:30] you know, what are we doing? Right. What’s the general feeling on the ground? What should we be [00:57:35] doing differently? So in terms of where I’m going, I mean, I’m hoping that I’ve [00:57:40] got a few more years left in me yet. Um, I’m really enjoying this journey. But the thing is this. [00:57:45] I’m really excited about what the future holds. I mean, I’ve talked about the mouth body connection. I really do [00:57:50] fundamentally believe that dentists, the dental practice is going [00:57:55] to change in future in the way that healthcare is delivered through dentistry. We’re already [00:58:00] doing blood pressure pilots within the NHS, within dental practices, our own dental practices. [00:58:05] We’re starting to do, um, HB one AC, diabetic finger prick testing. [00:58:10]

Neil Sikka: You know, there are there are apparently a million people that are undiagnosed diabetics. We know [00:58:15] the links between oral health and diabetes. So why should we as dental [00:58:20] practices not be at the forefront of that? We look at our genomics project. How [00:58:25] are we going to look at genome sequencing in terms of risk factors for periodontal [00:58:30] health. You know, I was at a lecture at the dentistry show where the lecturer and I hope she won’t [00:58:35] be asked me saying Reena Wadia and she did a brilliant lecture and she said 80% [00:58:40] of the reaction to bacteria and plaque is a host response. And there’s not a lot you can do about [00:58:45] it. So that is genetic. Yeah. So how do we then find out what [00:58:50] those are? So to me, the future is incredibly exciting. And the fact that I’m doing [00:58:55] my one day a week and I’ve got all this other time to really find out what’s [00:59:00] going on and, and be in a position to influence how we implement it is a [00:59:05] great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No it is. It really is.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your gears [00:59:10] about dentistry?

Neil Sikka: What grinds my gears? It’s a [00:59:15] difficult one, really, because I’m. I’m probably not that I’m too much of an optimist [00:59:20] to really go. What really annoys me about dentistry, I think. Okay. [00:59:25]

Payman Langroudi: Deep breath.

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:59:30] dear. Okay, I. [00:59:35] This is making me sound like a grumpy old man. [00:59:40]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram. Instagram. Are you.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. The Instagram age of personal branding [00:59:45] for dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And easy does it.

Neil Sikka: I just think I [00:59:50] think people sometimes want to run before they can walk. And I think we’re in a business. [00:59:55] We’re we’re here to deliver health care to our patients, not [01:00:00] just to give them great smiles. I know that’s part of it, but we should be able to [01:00:05] do everything. And when you see people that, um, you know, [01:00:10] that can’t that want to promote themselves in a certain way, but [01:00:15] actually can’t do the basics. I think I find that annoying because that’s what we’re here to provide. [01:00:20] Um, you know, we provide to, to provide proper care for our patients. [01:00:25] And I suppose that’s one thing that kind of gets my what if.

Payman Langroudi: What if someone is a endodontist [01:00:30] and can’t pull out teeth and can’t, can’t, can’t do anything else [01:00:35] other than endo, but they’ve got no problem with that, right?

Neil Sikka: No, I haven’t, because.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve gone through the process. Do [01:00:40] we have a problem with this other person who wants to be a whatever? I don’t know, maybe because maybe you’re thinking of what a lime [01:00:45] bleach bond type dentist?

Neil Sikka: Potentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. People. That guy wants to do that.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, that’s fine, [01:00:50] but it’s not. I mean, but what are they doing about the rest of it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, it’s important. They can they can [01:00:55] they can refer at the right point.

Neil Sikka: But who are you going to afford to another general dentist because you’re not going to do. You’re [01:01:00] not going to do a filling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I think I don’t think that’s right. As a general [01:01:05] dentist I think. Why though? Because I was brought up as a as someone, as a general dentist, you [01:01:10] should be providing comprehensive care to a certain level at least. And if it’s beyond your limitations, you refer [01:01:15] to a specialist. Referring to another general dentist means that you’re not qualified enough to do your job. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ll tell you why. Why, why I’m much more like, uh. Happy about it than you are. Yeah. I [01:01:25] stopped practising for six years when we started the company. [01:01:30] And then I went back and started doing two days, three days, four days a week. And when [01:01:35] I went back, dentistry wasn’t my focus. Focus. Right. Enlightened was my focus. Okay. [01:01:40] And I thought, if it’s not my focus, I’m not going to just sit around doing nothing. Like, like doing [01:01:45] work that isn’t the best work. So I thought, I’m going to only do [01:01:50] the things that I’m really, really good at. And it basically came down to bleaching and bonding. [01:01:55] It did. Yeah. And I found I was referring a lot, a lot [01:02:00] of different things to different people because I didn’t need the money was the reason why I [01:02:05] was doing it. Yeah. Um, you know, if it was something that I thought I could do very well, I would do it [01:02:10] myself very well. Otherwise, I would let someone else do it. And, you know, those [01:02:15] patients ended up having better treatment because of it. Because, you know, I’m not the best in the [01:02:20] world at post crowds. Yeah. So I would never do a post crown and send that to [01:02:25] someone else. Yeah. Now, my point is this, that if someone wants to be that guy, let [01:02:30] him be that guy. But tell me about personal branding that grinds you. It’s like, do [01:02:35] you have some sort of distaste for a dentist? I don’t know. [01:02:40] Um, building audience and and working on social. I mean, some people say I’ve [01:02:45] had people say this. I find it very valid. Yeah. Social is a massive skill [01:02:50] in itself. Yeah, that takes a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. They should be spending the time learning [01:02:55] teeth and understanding people. You know what I mean? If you’re going to put time into something, don’t put it into social [01:03:00] media. I get that, I understand that.

Neil Sikka: I, you know, I don’t I don’t mind [01:03:05] the idea of building a personal brand when it’s done [01:03:10] in the right way. What I don’t particularly like is the whole kind [01:03:15] of bling side of it that goes with it in terms of fast cars, Private jets [01:03:20] and lifestyle stuff that goes with it. I [01:03:25] am very happy for people to be promoting their wonderful work. Yeah, [01:03:30] in terms of their personal brand. And that’s, that’s that I’m completely understandable. And [01:03:35] that’s something actually.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about the fast cars. Like what’s the problem with the guy showing his Ferrari? [01:03:40]

Neil Sikka: You know, the trouble is, is then dentists get a reputation that they’re all, you know, oh, look at all these rich dentists [01:03:45] driving around in their Ferraris.

Payman Langroudi: You think that’s the thing?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think it is, yes.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:03:50] no, it’s a thing, I think. But irrespective of whether one dentist is showing his Ferrari or not, you know, like the [01:03:55] it’s such an interesting thing. I remember when I was a dentist, when I was associate, I always used [01:04:00] to try and ask the nurse, how much do you think the boss [01:04:05] earns? Yeah. And the numbers that would come out like these ridiculous numbers, like [01:04:10] ridiculous numbers, something you wouldn’t even get anywhere near like maybe like [01:04:15] ten times what the guy was actually earning, you know, And and and you say why, you know why, [01:04:20] why, why. Oh, he’s got a swimming pool.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right. He’s, he’s [01:04:25] got a swimming pool. Um, and then you’d get, you’d get some dentists who have a really nice car. They wouldn’t [01:04:30] drive to work so that their nurse wouldn’t think they’re rich or something. Yeah. [01:04:35]

Neil Sikka: I think it’s a difficult one because I think, you know, you work hard, you earn money. You, you, [01:04:40] you deserve the rewards of what you’re working. I just think.

Payman Langroudi: If I had a Ferrari, I wouldn’t stick it [01:04:45] on the internet. I get it.

Neil Sikka: That’s all I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Saying. I get it, but you know, it’s society’s got to that [01:04:50] point now where where some people want to do.

Neil Sikka: I think what you want to do in your own time, I think is absolutely [01:04:55] fine. I think it’s shoving it down people’s throats. It’s the thing that. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, anyone who really has, uh, private jets and things never, ever puts it online. [01:05:05] Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:05:10] all right, so that grinds your gears. Um, what [01:05:15] is the future going to be for pupa? Are you guys going to add more practices? [01:05:20] Are you going to consolidate? Is it going to be more about this, uh health [01:05:25] mouth connection?

Neil Sikka: I think the mouth body connection [01:05:30] is going to be a big focus for us. I mean, we are in a very unique position to [01:05:35] be able to leverage the knowledge that we have and the data as well within all our business [01:05:40] units. I mean, if we think about, for instance, just a simple thing like, um, [01:05:45] gum disease and, and, and so if you think about, um, [01:05:50] our claims data, if you think you have gum disease, a lot of people have gum disease will have a tooth extracted. [01:05:55] So if we look at our claims data for those people that [01:06:00] have claimed for a dental extraction, they’re 70% more likely to claim under [01:06:05] their medical insurance.

Payman Langroudi: For something else.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. For something under their medical policy. [01:06:10] Mhm. So this is us using data to start to show the power [01:06:15] of oral health. Now, we can’t say that. Oh, just because I’ve had an extraction, that means it [01:06:20] caused that. But we know that the links are there. All the clinical studies are showing that. [01:06:25] So for me, the future is, is how are we going to use [01:06:30] this incredible data knowledge and also expertise within our different business [01:06:35] units to, um, to, to really connect [01:06:40] together to deliver comprehensive care for our patients. So in [01:06:45] terms of Bupa dental for the future, I think we’re concentrating on our existing [01:06:50] portfolio, but we are looking at where we can grow our existing [01:06:55] surgeries practices because they’re at capacity. And they and we [01:07:00] know that there is the need there. That is where we’re concentrating and just being [01:07:05] much more analytical about, um, our, [01:07:10] our approach to growth. So looking at [01:07:15] the data properly, not just our, our, our provision data, but also the [01:07:20] data of our connected care businesses.

Payman Langroudi: What does your week look like?

Neil Sikka: So [01:07:25] Mondays always surgery. So that’s my [01:07:30] surgery day. I shut off my computers and I just literally concentrate on my patients. And I love [01:07:35] that day because it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you’re at 9 to 5.

Neil Sikka: And I go in at 830, [01:07:40] I probably leave about six. Um, well, I get in about eight and leave at six and it’s a, it’s a full [01:07:45] day, but that’s fine. But I, you know, and I.

Payman Langroudi: What was your day of rest?

Neil Sikka: It is, it’s almost like my day off [01:07:50] because it’s like I’m not, I’m not, I’m not having any noise around me. I’m just concentrating on the people in front [01:07:55] of me and really just enjoying the vacation.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: And then [01:08:00] the rest of the week, um, I probably the majority of the time is spent in my role as a director of [01:08:05] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but physically, are you working from home?

Neil Sikka: I’ll be working from home. [01:08:10] We have a it’s funny. We have a head office right next to my practice in [01:08:15] Margate where I work, which is Angel court, which is our worldwide head office. So [01:08:20] I’ll often be in there for meetings. We have our Dental head office in Bristol, so I’ll [01:08:25] be there. We have our board meetings, um, every month we get together [01:08:30] at different sites. I’ll be out and about visiting practices. I’ll [01:08:35] be working from home. You know, I like to do every [01:08:40] week. Um, it’s probably more like every month, a [01:08:45] couple of days I try and get out a bit. Um, and then I’ve got my insurance job [01:08:50] as well. So I will be helping the insurance team to design insurance products. I’ll [01:08:55] be pitching. So when we’re going out to try and sell a dental insurance product [01:09:00] to a new client or renewal meetings with existing clients. So we’ll have. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: You do that actual pitch to a company.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, because I’m not you see, I’m not selling a product. I’m. [01:09:10] I’m promoting a service which is very different. So I come at it from a clinical [01:09:15] angle and why it’s important for your employees oral health to have this [01:09:20] and to support it with the facts. So I’ll I’ll, you know, [01:09:25] I’ll be out there. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll bring me in for the big pictures. [01:09:30] Um, and I’ll be out there because that’s what I used to do. That was, that’s what I used to do [01:09:35] myself when I was for Barbican days. I was out there pitching.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll give you an example. It’s like we’re talking some fortune [01:09:40] 500 company or whatever.

Neil Sikka: All of them. Yeah. All the top.

Payman Langroudi: Like a giant employer. Yeah. [01:09:45] And you’re trying to get Dental as part of the benefits. Yes. So [01:09:50] it must be a much bigger business in the US than here, right. We don’t have here.

Neil Sikka: What [01:09:55] you’re talking about, dental insurance as a business or or Bupa in America.

Payman Langroudi: No, dental [01:10:00] insurance is a business.

Neil Sikka: No dental insurance in America is massive. Yeah. I mean, in the UK, um, [01:10:05] I think it’s around about, uh, dental insurance as a business [01:10:10] is about £200 million of insurance premiums here, which is peanuts. Yeah, but we’ve got [01:10:15] there’s massive potential.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What about the proposition for associates? [01:10:20] I’m an associate.

Neil Sikka: I’m an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:10:25] I’m not an associate. But if I was an associate and I’ve got on [01:10:30] one side an independent practice principles on site, they look like they’re [01:10:35] doing things ethically. On the other side, I’ve got a gigantic corporate, faceless, [01:10:40] nameless. And then on the other side we’ve got Bupa. Let’s say, let’s say we’ve got these three choices, the value [01:10:45] prop that you present. And we talked about some of the stuff that we said about, you know, the training centre training. [01:10:50]

Neil Sikka: Academy and but.

Payman Langroudi: What is what’s the pitch that, you know, what’s, what’s what is the [01:10:55] value prop that an associate gets from Bupa sort of clinical freedom as a thing?

Neil Sikka: I mean, [01:11:00] clinical freedom is a given. You know, you there is no there [01:11:05] is no onus on the individual to work in a certain way. As an associate [01:11:10] within Bupa Dental Care, you have complete clinical freedom as a as a self-employed because [01:11:15] you’re a self-employed principal. I get it in your.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. And that sounds like fun, doesn’t it? That sounds great for for, [01:11:20] for an associate. But you talk about this brand, right? One of the most powerful [01:11:25] brands, full stop, not just brands in health care. I’m a consumer. I walk into [01:11:30] a business with that brand on the on the wall. As a consumer, I would expect [01:11:35] certain clinical fundamentals to come out from every [01:11:40] single place that has that over the wall. But now you’re telling me full clinical freedom. So [01:11:45] one associate could do X, the other associate could do Y. How do you how do you square that circle?

Neil Sikka: Well, [01:11:50] it’s a really difficult one because this is the whole problem in terms of trying to drive consistency. [01:11:55] When you have 2500 clinicians around the.

Payman Langroudi: With full freedom, right.

Neil Sikka: With [01:12:00] well, because they’re self-employed in their own right. But I mean, if you go back [01:12:05] a stage to what you said. Well, what what is it that an associate wants? I [01:12:10] mean, if I think of myself as an associate, if I was working in any environment, [01:12:15] I would want three things. I want to be working with a great team that provides me with [01:12:20] the support. I want my nurse to know exactly what she’s doing, to be really invested in [01:12:25] supporting me so that I don’t have to think too hard about, you know, I just know it’s all there [01:12:30] in terms of enabling me to do the best possible job for my patients. I [01:12:35] want to know that it’s a proud, I’m proud to walk into the practice that the environment [01:12:40] is nice.

Payman Langroudi: Feels good, looks good, feels good.

Neil Sikka: Look good. The equipment is good that the that [01:12:45] they’re investing in my future in terms of digital technology, especially because [01:12:50] that’s where the future lies. And thirdly, you know, I want to be busy. So [01:12:55] I want to I want a business that’s going to put bums on seats for me. Yeah. So those are the three fundamental [01:13:00] things. Now, I mean, there are there are some independent [01:13:05] practices that do an amazing job and they and they have incredible, um, [01:13:10] local brand awareness and power and [01:13:15] they, you know, and we, we can’t compete with them in some ways because they [01:13:20] have, you know, they, they know, they do, they do an incredible job of all those [01:13:25] things for their associates. And I think where we can, [01:13:30] um, where we can hopefully leverage those relationships is there’s, there’s [01:13:35] certainly clinical and potentially non-clinical, um, um, opportunities. [01:13:40] So within our training academy, within our management structure, there’s [01:13:45] opportunities for dentists to get involved in different ways. But if you just want to be an associate [01:13:50] and you want to come in to your practice, I think it’s, I think it’s nice to be [01:13:55] part of an organisation, as I say, that, um, puts the health, the, the health [01:14:00] care of our people first in terms of the fact that we’re not we’re not always paying [01:14:05] big dividends out to shareholders. I think that’s a really nice thought [01:14:10] to have when you come in as an associate. And just the general vibe actually, [01:14:15] that you’re part of a group of people, I’m really surprised that, you know, well, I’m not surprised. But when I go around our [01:14:20] practices, it’s just lovely to meet people that really care. And I think [01:14:25] that is something that we try and engender as.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to pull off across 350 sites. [01:14:30]

Neil Sikka: And you’re not going to get it right every time. And, you know, and we are going to have our challenges. And also [01:14:35] this consistency that you talk about is something that is really, really difficult. [01:14:40] We try and do it in certain ways with us, you [01:14:45] know, things like our, our website and our online booking process. And perhaps [01:14:50] we’re helping to train receptionists to try and deliver similar service [01:14:55] levels to people when they walk through the door. Um, there’s no way that I [01:15:00] could say we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve nailed that at all. And it’s part of [01:15:05] a journey. Um, but we, but, but we’re very aware that, I [01:15:10] mean, I love us to be able to give a consistent. I did that at Barbican. I wanted people to have [01:15:15] a consistent, um experience, whichever of my practices that they walked into. [01:15:20] And that’s ultimately what we would like to do within our Bupa environment to [01:15:25] a certain extent, because we have NHS practices, we have purely private [01:15:30] practices, we have specialist practices and we have some we have orthodontic practices. [01:15:35] We have practices in Ireland where they don’t where we don’t have dental [01:15:40] insurance. We. So we do have different brands within [01:15:45] under under the Bupa banner. So, um, it’s not going to be always the same [01:15:50] experience, but if you would go to a certain type of practice, which is similar to another, I’d love that [01:15:55] to be consistent, but I, I won’t say we’re there yet.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, in Barbican, when [01:16:00] you were trying to keep things consistent, were you telling the dentist they had to do anything? Like [01:16:05] for instance, if I, if I, if I had a group of practices, [01:16:10] which I don’t, but if I did, I might say to all my clinicians that at [01:16:15] this business, we take photographs of every patient for the sake of the argument. Yeah. [01:16:20] I you know, whatever it is.

Neil Sikka: I it’s funny, I think what I [01:16:25] said, I think the one thing that I said to all the associates that would come and work with me, and it was [01:16:30] about, um, it was about putting the care of the patient [01:16:35] first fundamentally. And I said, if you’re here to make a quick buck, that’s all you’re going to make. [01:16:40] But if you put the care of the patient first, I’ve got to trust that you have the experience [01:16:45] and the knowledge. If you haven’t, I will find out because we’ll do our clinical audits regularly. [01:16:50] So the quality of your treatment has got to be the same. But also the [01:16:55] difficulty is the recommendation of treatment is different between different and you’re never going to change [01:17:00] that. Um, but I put it down initially to how a [01:17:05] patient would feel sitting in your chair versus sitting in another person’s [01:17:10] chair. Because ultimately, you know, the old saying, Maya Angelou, you know, people [01:17:15] will not remember what you say. They’ll never remember what you do, but they’ll always remember the way that you made them [01:17:20] feel. Yeah. And if we can make them have that feeling, I don’t know if you’ve seen our fluffy chair campaign. [01:17:25] Beautiful. But that’s the whole point about it. It’s like we have an amazing NPS score. [01:17:30] It’s about 86 now, I think, or something. And that is, you know, it’s world leading. [01:17:35] So we wanted to support that with a campaign that shows that you can feel at ease [01:17:40] when you come into our.

Payman Langroudi: I was quite surprised when I saw that actually, I didn’t expect it to go that sort of outside [01:17:45] the box. It was quite nice to see.

Neil Sikka: I love it and it’s had an amazing response [01:17:50] from the market. Yeah. Because it’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: It’s not about we’ll do this [01:17:55] treatment or that treatment. It’s treatments just know we’ll we’ll make you feel at ease. Yeah, yeah. And that’s [01:18:00] to me, the core of everything that I would like people to do.

Payman Langroudi: A [01:18:05] couple of quick fire questions. Um, what comes [01:18:10] to mind when I say what’s the best Dental lecture you’ve ever been to?

Neil Sikka: Oh. [01:18:15] There was a chap called. [01:18:20] Do you ever remember a chap called Gordon Christiansen?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Used to do that report.

Neil Sikka: I [01:18:25] used to. Yeah. Well he still does. It’s not him but it’s somebody else that does it. It was called the Clinical Research Associates. [01:18:30] And it was a thing that you got in the post.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. But he used to come to the UK and do these [01:18:35] lectures.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Neil Sikka: And it was all about everything that’s on the market. He’d run through it independently [01:18:40] tested.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I.

Neil Sikka: Remember. And he would, he would talk about, um, [01:18:45] you know, all the different products. And I thought those, those lectures were so important formative [01:18:50] because, you know, you want to be able to walk away from your lecture at least taking a [01:18:55] few key messages, right? If I could take 2 or 3 key things that I could [01:19:00] put into practice. The other person was a chap called John Cranham. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember [01:19:05] him.

Neil Sikka: He was amazing. And he gave such beautiful lectures. And again, in [01:19:10] terms of design for anterior cosmetic work and just to be really formalised [01:19:15] about your approach, he was brilliant at that. Um, and the other person was a chap called [01:19:20] was it Yan Pamir? He was, he was a chap from Sweden who also [01:19:25] did such beautiful work, but also simplified it so that he, [01:19:30] you could as a, you know, humble general practitioner, could try [01:19:35] and put a few of those things into, into, into practice. When you get.

Payman Langroudi: These important what you’re [01:19:40] saying about simplifying something, because a lot of lecturers go the opposite direction. They make things more complicated [01:19:45] than they need to be.

Neil Sikka: Well, they want to show off their how brilliant they are at doing this complicated work. But then you think, [01:19:50] well, when am I ever going to do that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Although at the same time we supply [01:19:55] we do education as well. We do composite bonding courses. Okay. You do have to think that, [01:20:00] you know, there’s going to be someone in the room who’s quite experienced already, and then someone who’s a complete beginner. And how [01:20:05] do you pitch it so that everyone gets something out of it? Yeah. So, you know, it’s [01:20:10] a difficult needle to dance on sometimes. What about if I say favourite book or [01:20:15] resource? You know, I don’t know, uh, Instagram page. [01:20:20]

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’ve got to say I use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I find [01:20:25] it a really useful resource for, um.

Payman Langroudi: But. Dental. Dental.

Neil Sikka: Dental. [01:20:30] Dental stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Keep up with what’s.

Neil Sikka: Going health care stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: For, um, [01:20:35] just general market overview. Yeah. Um, I find it a really good resource [01:20:40] and I can flick and I can just go, oh, that’s a really interesting one. And I’ll, you know, Mark’s really good [01:20:45] at sharing things as well. So he’s a great resource.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:50] bet he is.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So, so I mean, I, yeah, probably [01:20:55] use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Does a teacher stand out like a, someone from university or someone [01:21:00] who inspired you or who’s a dentist who really inspires you?

Neil Sikka: Who [01:21:10] is a dentist? That really inspires me. [01:21:15] I think that’s there is there is somebody out [01:21:20] there who I have spent a bit of time with recently who is just is [01:21:25] incredible. His commitment to trying to really, [01:21:30] um, providing credible care, but also pushing the frontiers of [01:21:35] what you can do for patients. And there’s a chap called Miguel Stanley.

Payman Langroudi: I know Miguel. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So [01:21:40] I’ve been to his clinic in. Oh, have you in Lisbon? I spent time with him. He was a keynote [01:21:45] lecturer for us at our conference in January. And he’s someone [01:21:50] who.

Payman Langroudi: Outside the box thinking.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, but also is like making me challenge my own way [01:21:55] of thinking about what dentistry should be like in the future.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:22:00] That’s what you’re saying, that the mouth body connection, he’s definitely [01:22:05] involved.

Neil Sikka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In that. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And he’s a forefront because he, he, you [01:22:10] know, everything is based on science with him. And he does his research. He’ll test things out and [01:22:15] he’ll he will report back on it in terms of what’s working within [01:22:20] his clinic.

Payman Langroudi: How about your free time? Let’s say you had an afternoon [01:22:25] off from everything.

Speaker 5: When’s that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Let’s imagine [01:22:30] I could, I could I could make that happen. Well.

Neil Sikka: I fiddle in people’s mouths, but I’m [01:22:35] also a fiddler violin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So I play the violin and a symphony orchestra. [01:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Speaker 5: Do you? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I love doing that. Oh, that’s my Wednesday nights. Um. [01:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: As a child, did you learn?

Neil Sikka: I learned as a child, as I was saying, you know, I was sent away to boarding [01:22:50] school and I played I was a music scholar and I played it excellent. So and I loved that. I really [01:22:55] love that. It’s, it’s like switch off time. Just really just get into it. [01:23:00] And I just that I.

Payman Langroudi: So how often do you play at home?

Neil Sikka: Well, I probably [01:23:05] practice a couple of times 2 to 3 times a week. Oh really? Um, when I’ve got. Well, [01:23:10] we do four concerts a year and so I’ve got to practice for the concert. So it gives me a real [01:23:15] focus because I’m in an orchestra where the standards are quite high and I’m probably [01:23:20] one of the least proficient, so I don’t want to show everybody up.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:25] where do you perform?

Neil Sikka: Um, it’s called the Brent Symphony Orchestra. So it’s in North London.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:23:30]

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No, I love doing that. Um, I play a very silly game [01:23:35] called Real Tennis. I was playing this morning.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Do you know real tennis?

Payman Langroudi: Real tennis? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:23:40] you play that?

Neil Sikka: Middlesex University, which is up in north London.

Payman Langroudi: Describe to someone who’s [01:23:45] never heard of it what happens in real tennis.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God. Well, it’s just something that the monks used to play in monasteries. [01:23:50] The French monks.

Payman Langroudi: Before tennis.

Neil Sikka: Right? Yeah, it was before tennis. And it’s basically [01:23:55] based around the cloisters of a of a monastery where you have a penthouse, [01:24:00] which is like a half roof that goes around, which is covered cloisters. And then [01:24:05] you have a net across the middle, and then you have a kink in a wall, and then you have holes in the wall. So [01:24:10] and it’s a it’s a normal tennis scoring, but it’s very strange about things that you [01:24:15] play in the game. So it’s too complicated to explain.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across fives?

Neil Sikka: Yes. I used [01:24:20] to play fives at school.

Payman Langroudi: I played five. There’s that thing that sticks out the buttress thing. It’s literally [01:24:25] part of a cathedral or something sticking in the middle of a squash court. Yeah. [01:24:30]

Neil Sikka: So I did that play golf.

Payman Langroudi: Played.

Neil Sikka: Quite a lot of golf weekends. We’re a big family of [01:24:35] golfers. All five of us. I’ve got three kids.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Neil Sikka: They? Oh, 27, 25 [01:24:40] and 19. None of them are at home anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Any dentist [01:24:45] types.

Neil Sikka: Know I’ve got. I’ve got a paediatric nurse. My daughter is a paediatric nurse. Uh, [01:24:50] another one works in finance. He lives in Manhattan and the other one’s just gone off to university. So no, [01:24:55] no, dentists couldn’t persuade them.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: Even though they said it was a. It [01:25:00] would be a great career for. I said it would be a great career for them.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s been a massive pleasure to have [01:25:05] you, man. Really, really. Thank you so much for coming all the way down.

Neil Sikka: Hey, look, it’s been a great pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: For a long time. [01:25:10] Long time organising this with you guys are busy. That’s what I think I’ve learned. [01:25:15] Yeah, but, um. No, I’ve learned a lot. Thank you so much for. For taking the time.

Neil Sikka: Well, thank you so [01:25:20] much for the invitation. It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve enjoyed that, man. Enjoyed [01:25:25] it.

Neil Sikka: Good God, is that an hour and a half?

Payman Langroudi: 20. [01:25:30]

Neil Sikka: Okay, good. Excellent. Oh, you didn’t ask [01:25:35] me about my three people I’d have around the dinner table.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, shit. Yeah, we have to do that. Oh. Do we? Yeah. Sorry, sorry, [01:25:40] sorry. So lost. Um. So final [01:25:45] question. Fantasy dinner party.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Neil Sikka: Okay. [01:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are you having.

Neil Sikka: So, um, [01:25:55] I think I’ve told you that I’m. I love playing golf. [01:26:00] Yeah. Uh, my favourite golfer of all time is Seve Ballesteros.

Payman Langroudi: Seve.

Neil Sikka: So, [01:26:05] you know, when I was young and he was such a magician. He’s still alive? No, [01:26:10] he had a brain tumour, and he died in his 50s, which was a real, real shame. But he [01:26:15] was a man of incredible passion, loved the game, loved to win, [01:26:20] but just played with such panache. And I think I would just love [01:26:25] to hear his stories. Um, the other person that I’d really [01:26:30] like to have around the dinner table, um, is a violinist. I said, I play [01:26:35] the violin, there’s a, there’s a violinist, um, professional violinist called Itzhak [01:26:40] Perlman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Who is who had polio as a child, but overcome [01:26:45] that to become one of the world’s greatest violinists. Yeah, apparently a very funny guy [01:26:50] as well. But I’ve seen him play and it’s just like he [01:26:55] is.

Payman Langroudi: He’s not alive anymore.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. He’s alive. He’s 80. Um, I don’t know if he performs anymore, [01:27:00] but I’ve had the pleasure of seeing him at the Festival Hall many, many years ago, and [01:27:05] he was just incredible. Made it look so easy, but just so [01:27:10] almost whimsical in the way that he approached things. But such a light touch, [01:27:15] but so beautiful to listen to. And I love to hear his experiences. And [01:27:20] my third one would be quite an interesting one for me. There’s [01:27:25] one book that I’ve read that I think has been incredibly profound in [01:27:30] its approach, but has really made me think about my life. And that’s called Man’s Search for Meaning [01:27:35] by a book called Viktor Frankl.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good book.

Neil Sikka: Um, and he.

Payman Langroudi: I only read that last [01:27:40] year for the first time.

Neil Sikka: And.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. Loved it.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s incredible. And again, I, [01:27:45] you know, we talked about lecturers that simplify things and make things easy for you to understand. He [01:27:50] has these moments and he says these things like, you know, between stimulus and [01:27:55] response, there’s a space. And in that space is your, your growth and [01:28:00] your freedom because it’s up to you how you respond. Simple, but just like perfect. [01:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: So I’d heard that from Stephen Covey, but obviously he’d [01:28:10] heard it from from there. So I thought it was the Stephen Covey original [01:28:15] thought until I read I read it last year. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was a Holocaust survivor. And this whole [01:28:20] story is incredible, beautiful, beautiful book. So I’d have those three. And I think it’d [01:28:25] be really interesting to see Viktor as the psychiatrist analysing Seve. [01:28:30]

Payman Langroudi: True.

Neil Sikka: True. So yeah, and we probably have a [01:28:35] few laughs as well. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, final final question. Um, It’s a deathbed. [01:28:40]

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed. [01:28:45]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’ve got to say, if I think if I got to my deathbed and I was giving them advice, it’d [01:28:50] probably be a bit late. I’d probably like. I’m always imparting advice [01:28:55] to my kids.

Payman Langroudi: A week before your deathbed.

Neil Sikka: Well, funny enough, somebody once said to me, [01:29:00] um, about, um, you know, we were talking about something called intention. [01:29:05] And I said, what does intention mean? He said, intention is your emotional [01:29:10] legacy. I said, what does that mean? He says it’s imagine yourself towards [01:29:15] the end of your life. You’re sitting on your veranda with a blanket over you, looking [01:29:20] at the sunset, thinking about how you would like to be remembered. That [01:29:25] is your emotional legacy, and you should hold that with you throughout [01:29:30] your life so that that influences the things that you do so that when you look back, [01:29:35] you can look back with pride And you can look back with comfort and. [01:29:40] So that would be one piece of advice. The other thing that I, I say to my [01:29:45] kids all the time is a simple thing. It’s, it’s like, [01:29:50] you know, when they say, talk about exams and A-levels and results and [01:29:55] this I said, you know, what’s most important thing? I said, I was not the most academic person, but I said, [01:30:00] if you get on with people, you’ll get on in life. And [01:30:05] if people like you, you don’t have to be the cleverest in the room. You just have to be someone that can [01:30:10] people can equate with. So that would be my probably my other piece [01:30:15] of advice.

Payman Langroudi: What about a piece of advice? Like, I mean, this the one [01:30:20] that you’ve given a kind of, sort of I found these worked for me kind of advice. What about stuff [01:30:25] that you wish you’d you were more classically. [01:30:30] I wish I’d gone to the gym more. So you should go or I wish I was less risk averse or [01:30:35] something like that. What if it was a piece of advice like that?

Neil Sikka: I [01:30:40] wish. Okay. I think that, um. [01:30:45] What we don’t realise is that when you’re younger, you think that [01:30:50] opportunities are going to occur, present themselves [01:30:55] to you that will transform your life. And actually, there are very few. [01:31:00] And I think I would if I was looking back, I think I wish I’d grasped [01:31:05] more of those opportunities when they came. So when you think something [01:31:10] sounds like something that you really need to grab hold of, do it. Do not [01:31:15] think that something else better will come up.

Payman Langroudi: You can give me an example of [01:31:20] or not. Like what was the opportunity that you didn’t? [01:31:25]

Neil Sikka: Well, I didn’t I probably wasn’t brave enough with my business. I could [01:31:30] have probably.

Payman Langroudi: You did. Okay. But are you.

Neil Sikka: Saying I could have done a lot more if [01:31:35] I thought, you know, I could have bought an insurance company.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I could have really [01:31:40] grown that business enormously because I had all the tools to be able to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You were in [01:31:45] the right sort of intersection. Right.

Neil Sikka: And there was no one else. Okay, who was doing it. But yeah, nobody else [01:31:50] was in that market at all. Interesting. And I could have stolen a march on everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting, [01:31:55] interesting.

Neil Sikka: But I wasn’t brave enough. You keep saying I’m a risk taker, I wasn’t. I’ve [01:32:00] seen people far more risk than me. I was I was I think I was quite cautious [01:32:05] really.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Thank you so much for doing this.

Neil Sikka: Thank you so much. Thank [01:32:10] you. It’s a pleasure.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in [01:32:15] for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:32:20] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber [01:32:30] driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

[VOICE]: Please welcome to the stage Head of General Dentistry, Bupa Dental [00:00:05] Care Doctor Annie Seabourne.

Annie Seabourne: Hello. Good afternoon everybody. [00:00:10] How are we all feeling? Some tired faces. But to be fair, I think people [00:00:15] have looked a lot more fresh than I thought they would be. Considering what I saw on the dance floor [00:00:20] last night. Um, two jam packed days. And [00:00:25] it has been honestly incredible. Last year, some of the feedback we got is that people [00:00:30] wanted more CPD, and what I can say is the team have knocked it out [00:00:35] the park this time, and I want to have a round of applause. Special [00:00:40] acknowledgement to Holly Harker and Nisha Patel and their amazing [00:00:45] respective teams and all the amazing speakers. So I hope you’ve had a wonderful [00:00:50] morning. We are at the end though. This is our last session [00:00:55] of the two days, and we’ve got something a little bit exciting, a little bit different. [00:01:00] And that is a live podcast recording. And it is the Dental Leaders [00:01:05] podcast, which is if you haven’t listened to it, it’s phenomenal. There’s hundreds of episodes to go back and [00:01:10] listen on your drives back. And it’s hosted by the formidable Payman [00:01:15] Langroudi, who is the clinical director and the co-founder [00:01:20] of Enlightened Smiles. And today we’ve got an amazing guest, Andrew [00:01:25] Bower, who is the product category lead globally [00:01:30] of Philips Oral healthcare. So I’m aware that the hangover [00:01:35] might be hitting, or you might be having a bit of a sugar kind of come down from all [00:01:40] the sweets and treats at lunchtime. Um, but the good news [00:01:45] is this will be recorded so you can always watch it back. However, the conversation is going [00:01:50] to be phenomenal. Um, and they’re going to discuss what dentistry is going [00:01:55] to be like in 2040 and beyond. So a warm welcome to Payman [00:02:00] and Andrew.

[VOICE]: Well. [00:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: This is a bit different to my normal podcast room, which some of [00:02:10] you have been in and several of you have been on my podcast. Massive pleasure to have you, Andrew. [00:02:15] Um, we’re looking at 2040 and although [00:02:20] that sounds like a long way away, it’s only 15 years at the same time, [00:02:25] it might be the first time in history where we don’t know what the world is going to be like [00:02:30] in two years time with AI and robotics, everything that’s [00:02:35] coming down the line. And really, um, my first question to [00:02:40] you is how far ahead do you guys think? Mm.

Andrew Bower: Fair [00:02:45] question. Um, we try and keep a ten year horizon [00:02:50] when we’re looking forward. Um, and maybe start kind of from a Philips enterprise perspective, [00:02:55] right. We’re in the in the business of improving lives. That’s our mission. 2.5 [00:03:00] billion lives is what we want to improve. And we bridge that between consumer health and medical health. And [00:03:05] so we’re always looking at the ten year horizon about what’s going to be [00:03:10] inflection points and what’s going to improve health outcomes. And I think for [00:03:15] us, it’s really a truly exciting time to be in health care, if [00:03:20] you like, as a whole, because I think the advancements in technology, it’s a somewhat industrial revolution we’re going [00:03:25] through at the moment, and the advancements in technology are accelerating unprecedented [00:03:30] speed. Where will that take us? Your guess is as good as mine, but [00:03:35] I think what it will do, it will hopefully lead to for [00:03:40] clinicians giving them more time to focus on patient care. And I think for [00:03:45] consumers, and I’m afraid that’s what we use in Philips, a lot of times consumers rather than people, but consumers, [00:03:50] is going to lead to more personalised care and more preventative care. And that’s [00:03:55] going to come through a wealth of technology, of sensors on driving behavioural change to [00:04:00] ensure that those who need critical care are going to get it quicker.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:05] did you you’ve been with the business 20 odd years now.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember predictions [00:04:10] you made 15 years ago? How right do they come?

Andrew Bower: It’s [00:04:15] funny because I think if we were back 15 years ago or even ten years ago, we [00:04:20] were talking about the IoT of things, the Internet of things and connectivity. And I think [00:04:25] that’s everywhere we touch now. Right. And that was the first step towards machine learning and AI. And [00:04:30] I think, um, a lot of the promises have come true. You [00:04:35] know, if you think of how many of us are here wearing a wearable, a smart watch or something that’s given us data and insights [00:04:40] all stemmed from that IoT. And I joke, and I look back [00:04:45] and I think if you were sat here in 1950, we’d be talking about should we use plastic? Yes. [00:04:50] The world is going to change. Of course we’re going to use UI. You’re going to leverage big data, [00:04:55] and it’s going to enhance the quality of care that we can provide.

Payman Langroudi: So look, we sell [00:05:00] toothpaste for £12 and everyone Gasps £12 for toothpaste. [00:05:05] Yeah. And then right right next door to your teeth is your lips and skin. [00:05:10] And people buy £100 screen you know creams for their skin. Yeah. Do [00:05:15] you having come from all the different categories in Philips consumer that you’ve been in, do [00:05:20] you see that oral care has sort of a lower [00:05:25] priority for people? And are you doing something to sort of what do you think [00:05:30] that oral care will take a higher priority for people going forward?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think look, [00:05:35] oral healthcare at the minute for consumers is a daily chore. Yeah, two minutes a day. We want [00:05:40] to turn it into a daily ritual because if you can turn into that daily ritual, you’re investing [00:05:45] in yourself, investing, giving yourself confidence, right? You’re in the whitening business, so am I. You know, and [00:05:50] that’s part of it. But it’s about actually, how am I investing my time in myself and that [00:05:55] care routine to take better care of myself? I think the beauty industry is a fabulous example, [00:06:00] right? How many people have a beauty routine, a cleansing of their skin routine at the end of the day? What’s [00:06:05] an extra two minutes in that routine to actually have a sensorial experience that makes you feel fresh and [00:06:10] good about yourself, and actually knowing that you’re doing something to protect your longevity. [00:06:15] Look after your oral health and ultimately full body health. So I think [00:06:20] the job of the industry and industrial partners like us is to break the apathy, [00:06:25] right? Break the apathy around oral health, that it’s absolutely [00:06:30] integral for your health today and tomorrow. And it’s actually really easy [00:06:35] to take care of, you know, and we’re on this crusade [00:06:40] to try and break that apathy. You know, let me give you some examples. Um, globally, [00:06:45] 30% of people are only using a power toothbrush. So 70, 70, [00:06:50] 70% of people are still using manuals.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the number in the UK? Do you know?

Andrew Bower: Yeah. 52. [00:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: 52%.

Andrew Bower: 52% in the UK. Second most penetrated market after the Netherlands. [00:07:00] Really? It is. But it also shows where we are on a journey of oral health. [00:07:05] Because actually I always joke it’s kind of like the New Year’s habit. You could always keep your teeth [00:07:10] twice a day with a power toothbrush. People don’t because this is apathy, because they don’t understand the importance of it. [00:07:15] So I think, you know, the power of data and AI, and we see this with our connected apps, people [00:07:20] who use our connected app brush for longer. It leads to more, more retention [00:07:25] and a more complete, a more complete clean. And we have the data to support it, but it’s [00:07:30] people taking that, um, shall we say, active investment in their health. [00:07:35] And when they realise oral health like we heard yesterday from Ian Chappell. Right. Oral health [00:07:40] is so important. I hope we’re going to break the apathy and people are going to invest more time, more [00:07:45] effort and maybe the £60 they need to spend on that versus, I [00:07:50] don’t know, an a G one supplement or a whatever else it is they do for, for, for [00:07:55] well-being.

Payman Langroudi: As a business. How do you guys think about insurgents? Because [00:08:00] the barrier to entry of an electric toothbrush is quite low.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. I think we need [00:08:05] to be really careful here. We are seeing insurgents across the world. So as you know, in the intro, um, [00:08:10] I have global responsibility and I spend a lot of time in Asia and I see a lot of incumbents [00:08:15] coming in, a lot of Chinese tech coming through in the category. And [00:08:20] it’s fascinating, right? Because you go to China and I’m seeing robotics and I see AI, and I think the advancements of [00:08:25] technology and the speed in which it’s coming is phenomenal. Yeah. And I see incumbents in the market, [00:08:30] like, um, if you want, you smile, right. Local Chinese [00:08:35] brand, American founders flying in China full of tech. You [00:08:40] know, I didn’t know that I needed a talking toothbrush, but it probably talks to me now. It’s got light [00:08:45] colours interaction on it, but it’s not delivering the clinical efficacy that [00:08:50] it needs to do. And actually, I think some of the incumbents coming to the market are forgetting [00:08:55] that actually this is a clinical product that has to do a clinical job and deliver the care [00:09:00] that is required when you, the clinician, can’t be there. That’s what we need to do. [00:09:05] And so it also acts as a massive threat, if I’m honest with you, to the [00:09:10] industry. Um, and a perfect example of this is in Japan, right? Um, [00:09:15] or power toothbrush penetration in Japan is 24%, but [00:09:20] a huge category objectives for people going into the category, buying one and then trading out because the product [00:09:25] doesn’t deliver any benefit.

Andrew Bower: So it doesn’t deliver the clinical benefit. It doesn’t have the clinical experience. [00:09:30] So people just think, yeah, this is rubbish. And then bin it and go back to the manual brushing. What [00:09:35] they haven’t done is brought into the category, the clinically proven product that has got the evidence behind it, [00:09:40] which is going to actually remove the plaque that it says it’s going to do and help you remove the plaque where you [00:09:45] need to. And this is a big challenge because the more we see this, we’re going to see more category rejectors and [00:09:50] therefore people not believing in the benefit of power over manual and [00:09:55] with with. Power being still, you [00:10:00] know, still at 30%. So Underpenetrated, you know, we have a job to do to ensure [00:10:05] that people trade into the category at the right level and ensure that they learn how to use the device [00:10:10] properly, ensuring that it delivers a clinical efficacy for [00:10:15] what you want to achieve. And that’s why, you know, my role globally is to drive relationships with dental [00:10:20] professionals to ensure that they understand our story and actually understand how it can help them in the care they’re providing [00:10:25] to their patients. But it is a huge risk.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the biggest difference between British dentists [00:10:30] and other dentists? I mean, what, what, what comes to mind? Because, [00:10:35] you know, you obviously you guys are connecting to dentists all over the world.

Andrew Bower: I think [00:10:40] let me start with the consumer. Come to the dentist. Right? If I think about the consumer, the individual reactive. [00:10:45] Reactive versus preventive is [00:10:50] the key is the key distinction across the globe. I think we actually have a very, [00:10:55] very mature oral health system in the UK. When I compare it to many, many other regions, [00:11:00] we go regularly, we go for Check-ups, we go for prevention. I go to China, you [00:11:05] go when you’ve got a pain and where do you go? You go to the public hospital and they deal with it. [00:11:10] So I think the attitude of [00:11:15] people and consumers differs tremendously, therefore has a knock on effect to the [00:11:20] to the clinical side of things. Um, and many [00:11:25] are about fixing a problem. Get in, get out, fix the problem. It’s not necessarily about [00:11:30] patient care. I think what you see in the UK is far more patient care orientated kind [00:11:35] of system that supports people when they’re in the practice, but also when they’re at [00:11:40] home and helping them on their patient plans. Whereas in many parts of the world that still doesn’t exist. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So where where would you rank the UK? Near the top?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, near the top. I think UK [00:11:50] is pretty high. The US is pretty high. We’ve got we’ve got the discrepancy, [00:11:55] you know, and societal gaps in the US that we have to challenge. And how do we make sure people get access [00:12:00] to care. We don’t have that as much in the UK. Um but it’s certainly up there. And I [00:12:05] think what we’re seeing is that pushing the boundaries of dentistry, I think, [00:12:10] you know, what I was doing, for example, around systemic health is really pioneering. And [00:12:15] I think it’s really interesting to see where that will take us.

Payman Langroudi: So that question, what we saw with Prof [00:12:20] Chappell yesterday, the question of the mouth body connection does do you guys [00:12:25] spend time on that?

Andrew Bower: We’re obviously monitoring it [00:12:30] very closely. Right. Um, and I think there’s increasingly evidence across the globe. [00:12:35] And professor, Professor Chapman obviously is the oracle of this. And you know, we speak to many, many key opinion leaders [00:12:40] across the globe on this topic. The evidence is becoming stronger and stronger. The question [00:12:45] is, what do you do with that? Right. So if you get an early sign of diabetes, for example, [00:12:50] what do you do? Go and do with that. And where do you go. And does that need to be at the consumer’s home [00:12:55] or can it be in in the practice? So there’s a real discussion about where that should take place. [00:13:00] And then how do you integrate that into the ultimately care pathway that bridges both [00:13:05] your general practice and your, and your clinical and your, your dentistry? So [00:13:10] I think we believe in it. I think, I think what it does for us [00:13:15] comes back to that apathy point. I hope it also brings greater awareness to oral oral [00:13:20] health and that we all need to invest more time in it. So I see it also [00:13:25] as a great catalyst for consumers to be more engaged, [00:13:30] and I hope that it has that effect. And then from a clinical care pathway perspective, [00:13:35] I’m really excited to see how that comes together. Right? You know, blood tests and dental practices, etc., etc., [00:13:40] how it comes together. But from a consumer, I hope it wakes people up.

Payman Langroudi: So you reckon by by [00:13:45] 2040, your daily brushing routine will give [00:13:50] you diagnostics because of saliva testing through the brush, something like that. I mean, [00:13:55] what can you tell us?

Andrew Bower: I’m not going to go too far. It could potentially. Um, [00:14:00] but I think there’s a real question like I say, where that takes place. Is it, is it, is it useful to you to get a diagnostic [00:14:05] on a Monday morning at 630 on your way to the office? No, wait a minute. Something’s changed since yesterday. [00:14:10] And what’s the urgency of that versus what’s the role that will play in [00:14:15] the clinical setting? You know, so I think let’s think about, you know, algorithmic hygiene. Hygiene [00:14:20] is twice a year, maybe three times. And I have half an hour with them. What a great opportunity [00:14:25] for primary health, you know, both physical and mental and have them have that check [00:14:30] up. Do I need that on a daily basis? I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But are you not working on like maybe an [00:14:35] oral version of those bands that people wear? Surely. I mean, if [00:14:40] there was going to be some sort of diagnostic information that you can [00:14:45] get from the mouth.

Andrew Bower: I think there will be diagnostic information from the mouth that you can get. Absolutely. [00:14:50] I think you look at saliva, you look at gas, etc.. I’m excited to see where the industry takes it, but I think one thing’s measuring [00:14:55] it. The other thing is turning it into actionable insights. You know, I think we’ve seen from we’ll go back [00:15:00] to the IoT discussion about raising data. Data gives you visibility. [00:15:05] Visibility drives action. So actually what we’re doing here is trying to create the invisible [00:15:10] visible for people. Right? And if that can happen, then we can drive behavioural change. [00:15:15] And I think that you’ve got to have that motivational driver to drive that behavioural [00:15:20] change. And that’s where data continues to be a positive reassurance to do that. [00:15:25] Um, do I foresee in mouth monitoring potentially. Um, again, [00:15:30] I think we’ve got to be very clear where that should take place and where it shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] you were a betting man, how long will it be before dentists [00:15:40] are replaced by robots?

Andrew Bower: I don’t think they ever will be. I don’t think they ever will be. [00:15:45] I think I don’t think they will be. I think I’ll tell you why. Because it’s actually about care. People [00:15:50] care what I think robotics AI technology will do [00:15:55] will give clinicians more time, more time to be with their patients, to understand them. [00:16:00] And I think the role of dentists will broaden to be more holistic health [00:16:05] than just necessarily just looking at teeth perspective, maybe total oral health. [00:16:10] But I don’t think it will be replaced by robotics. I think robotics will enhance the workflow. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So a bit like, you know, like Waymo, a self-driving car.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:16:20] still a driver. There’s one driver driving 60 cars. Maybe that.

Andrew Bower: Maybe, [00:16:25] maybe, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: One dentist treating 60 patients.

Andrew Bower: You know, we’re human beings and we want care [00:16:30] and we want a human interaction for that care. I think technology will enhance the care [00:16:35] we get won’t replace it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I mean, for instance, it doesn’t [00:16:40] have to be a dentist. It could be a TCO, a human, certainly. [00:16:45]

Andrew Bower: Potentially. Potentially. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve worked [00:16:50] across other categories. What are examples that, you know, Philips categories, things [00:16:55] that you guys have achieved that now you’re bringing over to oral care, like which other category would you [00:17:00] spent the most time?

Andrew Bower: I spent a lot of time in women’s health and I spent a lot of time in, uh, what [00:17:05] we call our mother and child care account, uh, supporting, uh, people, [00:17:10] having families. There’s two aspects to this. There’s a commercial aspect, and there’s kind [00:17:15] of the behavioural, the lifestyle aspect, right? I think one thing we’ve done, we built [00:17:20] the world’s leading pregnancy app. You know, we have 7 million pregnant women on it every day looking [00:17:25] for guidance and education. And what we’ve done there is to really build clinical [00:17:30] insight into a communication style that’s really easily understandable. [00:17:35] So we talked about the reading age of a 7 or 8 year old, and it makes it highly digestible for [00:17:40] everybody. And actually, who we want to get that education to is probably the underserved community, [00:17:45] the people who aren’t as well educated. And so it’s been a hugely successful to [00:17:50] demonstrate better education, which then leads to better care, right? And it’s obvious for well-educated [00:17:55] people. But if you talk to well, it was in those days, NHS England and we’re saying, how do [00:18:00] you get people to stop smoking when they’re pregnant in Liverpool? It’s a very specific target audience that you’re targeting. [00:18:05] And so I think access to education and [00:18:10] care is something that we’ve really doubled down on, and ensuring that products become [00:18:15] more personalised to your to your needs across the board.

Andrew Bower: So childcare, [00:18:20] we did an awful lot of research on flex for babies and drinking and [00:18:25] understanding that process. So I think it’s kind of education adoption is to products [00:18:30] and then making it more accessible. So yesterday we spoke briefly [00:18:35] and we’re talking about the Affordable Care Act in North America, which Obama brought in. Right. [00:18:40] And he very clearly said every new mother should have entitled to a breast, a breast [00:18:45] pump, because breast milk is the most important thing you can give to your baby and put the insurance codes [00:18:50] in place to enable that to happen. Right. I would love us to have a dialogue about how do [00:18:55] you unlock insurance codes on a national level to oral care. So it’s not the expense [00:19:00] that’s coming out of your individual pocket, but it’s something that’s supported by legislation [00:19:05] to make it more accessible. And I think it’s that change in [00:19:10] the narrative and the dialogue that we need to have to make oral health care more accessible. Bringing this conversation [00:19:15] to ensure people get the best care every day.

Payman Langroudi: So in your [00:19:20] time, you’ve worked at other companies or has your whole career been.

Andrew Bower: No, no, I have worked at other companies. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: But what, 20 years at Philips?

Andrew Bower: I’ve been 20 years at Philips. I started here in the UK, I’ve worked in Asia, I’ve worked in the Netherlands. [00:19:30] I’ve been around the world. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How important is oral care to Philips? Like what? [00:19:35] What percentage of its business is it?

Andrew Bower: It’s a it’s a. So if you think about [00:19:40] Philips, we have health systems on a personal health business. Our personal health business is significantly important for us. Um, [00:19:45] I’m sure you can Google our, our financial projections. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean financially, but do you see that as the growth part.

Andrew Bower: It’s a great growth path. [00:19:55] Like we talk about consumers. We want to serve people. We want to help. Right. [00:20:00] Our ambition is to serve over 250 million people every day with [00:20:05] better oral health care. And how do we do that? Primarily with power toothbrushes. We also [00:20:10] do a lot of interdental care, and we also do whitening solutions. But ultimately, it’s critically [00:20:15] important because it links back to that systemic health story, right? Which [00:20:20] which we also actively invested on an enterprise level in a, in a health system, in [00:20:25] a hospital environment. Um, and so why [00:20:30] we have a consumer division in. Phillips is about prevention [00:20:35] and driving behavioural change for better health outcomes. So the businesses [00:20:40] that we have and we’ve kept hold of are still wholly focussed on that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:20:45] how do you guys think about research? Do you outsource research and do [00:20:50] it in-house, or do you do it all in-house?

Andrew Bower: We we do a lot in-house. [00:20:55] We have a huge we have a great advanced development team, but we also work with a lot of clinical partners. [00:21:00] You know, um, for us, it’s absolutely critical that we have leading [00:21:05] opinions and cutting edge research from across the globe. You know, [00:21:10] um, Professor Chapel’s a great friend of ours, but we also have friends in every corner of the world. [00:21:15] And it’s really important for us to understand what’s happening in different corners of the world from [00:21:20] a research, um, but also from a beliefs perspective, right. And that [00:21:25] that informs us on our innovation process. The voice of the [00:21:30] clinician is absolutely critical in everything we do. So we’ll have them around the table [00:21:35] at our earliest concept stage of ideas, and we’ll go all the way through to clinical validation with [00:21:40] them to help us ensure that we deliver products that deliver what they should do on the [00:21:45] tin.

Payman Langroudi: But you told me that you’ve got research centres across the globe. What three?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, [00:21:50] we’ve got 3 or 4. Yeah, we’ve got four.

Payman Langroudi: And they work across categories.

Andrew Bower: No. These are all dedicated to oral [00:21:55] health care.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Three just for oral care. So do they work in conjunction with each other? [00:22:00]

Andrew Bower: Absolutely. And we have experts specialist expertise in different ones for different topics. [00:22:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what would you say is the biggest breakthrough for ellipses has come out with Philips. [00:22:10]

Andrew Bower: I’ll talk about oral health in this context rather than Philips. I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. I mean [00:22:15] in oral health.

Andrew Bower: In oral health, I think the big steps that change that we’re doing, have done, and you can see it now [00:22:20] is the connectivity that we brought to toothbrushes. Why was that so important? [00:22:25] We did it for kids and we did it for adults. For kids. We have [00:22:30] a character, sparkly, etc. who brushes your teeth with you, educates you, [00:22:35] and drives adherence to brushing two minutes a day.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on an.

Andrew Bower: App. It’s on an app.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Really, [00:22:40] really important. And we see child adoption to brushing significantly [00:22:45] increasing. Sparkly. Goes to bed, goes on holiday. Sparkly cleans your teeth. The whole narrative [00:22:50] around it. And then we put connectivity into into adult toothbrushes. And we saw adherence again [00:22:55] to brushing significantly step up. You know, I think it’s I think it’s 80% of people [00:23:00] in the app brush for two minutes, twice a day, which doesn’t sound much, but most people just brush for 60s. [00:23:05] Right? And so it’s an example of behavioural change [00:23:10] and that connectivity allowing you to do that. It also teaches you where the brush is and how [00:23:15] to brush in the mouth. You can see where it is on the app, etc., etc.. Which again are you covering blind spots, [00:23:20] are you not? So I think what we’re trying to do is continuously bring innovation [00:23:25] that drives personalised care. It helps you understand where you’ve got [00:23:30] spots that you need to clean, where you should clean a bit more, where you should invest more time, and that will help [00:23:35] ultimately drive better outcomes.

Payman Langroudi: Does that connect to the dentist as well?

Andrew Bower: No, not at this stage. [00:23:40] We have looked at it, we’ve looked at it, we’ve looked at connecting to the dentist. What are we going to be careful? [00:23:45] And this is also from my previous roles because you get into the telehealth discussion and remote patient [00:23:50] monitoring. We don’t want to add burden to the care pathway of the clinician. [00:23:55] We want to help them effectively. And in dentistry, [00:24:00] and we’re certainly in developed markets, we’re proactively going, um, we’re [00:24:05] not. Maybe it is a specific case you want to keep an eye on, but we haven’t seen the pull [00:24:10] from the clinical world to actually have that at the minute from [00:24:15] a, from a teledentistry perspective. And there’s many, many players out there, as you know, who have explored [00:24:20] it, but none have driven to mass adoption. So for us, we very much focus on that [00:24:25] personalisation.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say there’s even mass adoption of the app?

Andrew Bower: I think, um. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: I expect most people just take the brush out and brush with it.

Andrew Bower: No, they do, they do. I think so. [00:24:35] It’s obviously a certain demographic. You want it and it’s a higher demographic who are using it. And I think the adoption [00:24:40] rates, I’ll be speculating, it’s 5,060% of [00:24:45] the app and continued usage up to a year. So it’s, you know, we are seeing people engaging. [00:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: How do you guys look at positioning? Because I don’t know, correct [00:24:55] me if I’m wrong. I think Philip’s stuff is positioned sort of at the top of the market. So [00:25:00] do you ever there must be someone somewhere always telling you, why don’t you bring out a cheaper [00:25:05] toothbrush?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think if you think about our mission as a Sonicare, it [00:25:10] might sound a bit. We want to democratise oral health. What do we mean by that? We want to [00:25:15] show that every person has access to a quality product that delivers clinical [00:25:20] efficacy and does a deep clean, and we believe we can offer that. We are positioned. [00:25:25] We do have a premium brand positioning. However, you know, we have price points [00:25:30] from £30 all the way through which deliver clinical outcomes. So [00:25:35] there is this narrative that we are too expensive. But actually we [00:25:40] spent the last couple of years revamping our entry portfolio, our portfolio to make [00:25:45] it more accessible because we know it has to be to appeal to more people. And we need to break that [00:25:50] apathy again of getting into people’s hands.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, part of it is the premium positioning [00:25:55] as well, right?

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be all things to all people.

Andrew Bower: You can’t. But I think you [00:26:00] can drive an object of desire. Right. And that’s what we talk about where you do create an object of desire. We think we do anyway. [00:26:05] And it seems to test pretty well with consumers. So we want to be an aspiration, but we want people [00:26:10] to be able to have accessibility to it. We’re not in a market of just serving [00:26:15] the premium consumer. You know, we’re in a market of democratising oral [00:26:20] health for everybody, and that makes it we’ve got to make it accessible for everybody, and that sits on our shoulders to make [00:26:25] sure we can do that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to get more onto your personal [00:26:30] journey of how how did you get to this point? Why did you move to oral care? Or did [00:26:35] they move you to oral care? How does it work?

Andrew Bower: How does it work? No, I did [00:26:40] a similar role for, like I said, Women’s Health Division before I [00:26:45] took this role. And what attracted me to oral [00:26:50] health is, is the systemic health link. You know, the bigger health implications, [00:26:55] you know, that it could play. And they asked me if I was generally interested in taking this opportunity [00:27:00] and also looking at how we change the relationship that we drive with clinicians across the globe, which [00:27:05] I think is a really nice challenge to look at because the motivational [00:27:10] drivers of them is tremendously different depending where I look. You know, I speak [00:27:15] to dentists and where they exist, hygienists, because that’s not everywhere wherever [00:27:20] I go. And it’s really interesting to learn their preconceptions now. So [00:27:25] I’m in a I’m in a dental office in China and I’m talking to the dentist. And the first question I ask them, are [00:27:30] you using a Sonicare? Now I use a manual. Why? Because I can do good. I can do a good enough job. [00:27:35] Okay. What about the literature? Mhm. So there’s some grassroots [00:27:40] education also within the industry that we need to break, break [00:27:45] through to, to. To get them to support [00:27:50] our mission effectively. Um, and yeah, so why [00:27:55] I took that role was actually because I think the challenge is fantastic. And there’s a great opportunity [00:28:00] and there’s such an underserved population out there that we can do something, something about. And that’s [00:28:05] what I get excited about.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you what’s been the darkest day [00:28:10] on your journey.

Andrew Bower: Professionally or personally?

Payman Langroudi: Professionally?

Andrew Bower: Look, [00:28:15] I think professionally in the world that I’m in.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it’s mixed, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:28:20]

Andrew Bower: It is, it is. And I’ll be honest with you, one leads to another. You know, if you get it wrong professionally, [00:28:25] it does have a personal impact on you. Um, darkest [00:28:30] time of my journey is when I’ve launched, I went, I launched the world’s first medical grade [00:28:35] parenting app, parenting, parenting app. So I wanted to drive data [00:28:40] on newborn children to help parents have a voice. And it didn’t [00:28:45] resonate as much as we thought it would. And that’s a bit upsetting, right?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been, I’ve been [00:28:50] there.

Andrew Bower: It’s like you’re a corporate venturing, as you say, and it was a corporate venture and I was leading this corporate venture [00:28:55] and it didn’t resonate. And then you had to pull the plug and you’re like, there’s a tough love [00:29:00] that, you know, the element of actually accepting. We can’t afford to keep investing in [00:29:05] this. It’s a good idea. Are we too soon? The best answer is it’s too soon. Because then you [00:29:10] can say, oh, we’ll come back to it later. But no, but actually the market has to be right. And [00:29:15] if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not, if you’re not failing, you’re not trying.

Andrew Bower: You’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Learning, you’re not, you’re not trying enough stuff. But [00:29:20] I think in corporate, sometimes everyone’s trying to sort of protect their own job. And so [00:29:25] trying stuff is quite hard.

Andrew Bower: I think, um, being I like the term [00:29:30] entrepreneurial, you know, you need people who are speedboats in oil tankers to try and drive change. [00:29:35] Um, and that’s what we try and do to try and get ahead of the curve. And that takes [00:29:40] a healthy aspect of, um, risk, but [00:29:45] calculated risk about what are the parameters you’re going [00:29:50] to work with and what not. And being very honest about when it’s working and when it’s not and when you’re going [00:29:55] to pass the scale. Right. Um, I was running a venture in India before I took this [00:30:00] role, which was really supporting women with PCOS. And [00:30:05] the goal there was. We suddenly realised the whole [00:30:10] glue to the proposition was actually about personal connection and actually [00:30:15] building a community of people who are suffering the same condition. And yes, we’re offering we’re offering nutrition [00:30:20] plans, lifestyle coaching, yoga classes. We do a whole behaviour [00:30:25] change and we actually realise it’s about human connection. So how do we how can we dial that up to help people? [00:30:30] Um, so yeah, it’s um, but that’s healthy experiment and [00:30:35] allowing the space to test that and protecting teams to do it. And I think that’s the art [00:30:40] in corporates about how do you protect a team to try something. Yeah. And then if it works, [00:30:45] how does it scale?

Payman Langroudi: Certainly some some some corporates manage. Right. [00:30:50] They do.

Andrew Bower: They do. And you know many corporates are successful in this. But you’ve got to get that balance right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:30:55]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about the opposite. What comes to mind if I say what was the best day.

Andrew Bower: The best day. Oh [00:31:00] many, many good days. I think on the opposite side, you launch a product or service that’s [00:31:05] certainly has huge market reaction. And people, it generally improves their day to day [00:31:10] experience, their great days. And then it’s actually really nice then to do that time and [00:31:15] spend the time with the consumer and the customer having dialogues, talking about it. What’s working? What [00:31:20] can you enhance, what you can improve? But people are generally excited to help you. So the best days are when people [00:31:25] are kind of on the idea, the building and co-creating with you.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:30] specifically one of these apps.

Andrew Bower: Apps or one of the devices [00:31:35] or services that we bring. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if I ask you, what’s your biggest mistake that you’ve made [00:31:40] in your career?

Andrew Bower: Mm. Biggest mistake. Um [00:31:45] biggest mistake. It’s [00:31:50] a hard one. I think I’ve launched I’ve [00:31:55] launched things that weren’t ready. And what I mean by that, I’ve put a product out there that I wasn’t happy with [00:32:00] or a service that I wasn’t happy with. And deep down, I probably knew it. And [00:32:05] there was an element you’ve got to listen to your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: And you’ve got to listen to that gut and act on that gut. And [00:32:10] if you don’t, there’s something, there’s something wrong. So I think as you as you continue in your career, I [00:32:15] think the voice of the voice of your gut becomes a bit stronger with your experiences, and you shouldn’t ignore it because [00:32:20] it actually tells you an awful lot about is this good or is it bad?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] you don’t want to go into exactly what it was.

Andrew Bower: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: You want to go into exactly what it was? That’s [00:32:30] a no no. We [00:32:35] could all take it. Okay. Now going forwards. [00:32:40]

Andrew Bower: 2040 back to 2040.

Payman Langroudi: Back to 2040.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you [00:32:45] told me there’s many things you guys are thinking. There’s some things you can’t talk about.

Andrew Bower: Exactly. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: What can you talk about?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think we can talk about I think we can the key consumer [00:32:55] trends. And we’re going to see consumer clinical trends, right? There’s no doubt we’re [00:33:00] seeing from a consumer perspective that there’s different motivational drivers towards oral care, [00:33:05] right? There’s the element of I just want to clean my teeth, get on with it. Element [00:33:10] of I want a healthy body. There’s an element of I want to look beautiful. And [00:33:15] so you’ve seen different motivational drivers, and I think you see the industry shifting a little bit towards that, you know, [00:33:20] self-confidence, mental health all plays a role and also connects to the oral [00:33:25] health experience. And what we offer, you know, you’re, you’re in a world of whitening as [00:33:30] well. You know, you whiten your teeth, you look after them, but you’ve got to have strong foundations to be able to whiten them. [00:33:35] Right. And I think we’re going to see, and things like that really [00:33:40] drive active interest in it. So I think what we’re going to see, certainly from consumer [00:33:45] side, different different motivational drivers and people and therefore people investing in oral health for different [00:33:50] reasons. We talk a lot about systemic health.

Andrew Bower: Some people don’t care about that if we’re honest about it. Some of [00:33:55] us just want good white teeth to look beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And so I think the motivational drivers [00:34:00] are different. And I think it’s really important that we recognise that because we’re ultimately driving the [00:34:05] same outcome, health benefits. But the path to it is different. [00:34:10] I think then, like I said, from the initial perspective, we can see great [00:34:15] integration. I think we’re going to see far more better integration. I think, you know, total [00:34:20] health health, health clinics is going to continue to explode. [00:34:25] I expect we’re already seeing it here, right? We’re going to see it [00:34:30] in the US. And I think we’re going to see far more patient record integration. [00:34:35] You know, if you think about things like epic are doing in the US and really trying to connect the data or enabling us to connect [00:34:40] the data points, that’s going to see a profound shift in the system. And [00:34:45] I’m excited to see where that goes because there’s going to be a conversion, right? When does general practice [00:34:50] singularity come together as one, right, as the total wellness place? Yeah. Um, [00:34:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the thing that surprised you the most [00:35:00] about dentists, dental practices, the dental sector? When [00:35:05] you came to us?

Andrew Bower: When I came into it. Again, [00:35:10] different things for different reasons, right? Yeah. I think [00:35:15] people in the industry, I, I was quite surprised by the entrepreneurial [00:35:20] spirit in the dentist world, if I’m honest with you. I’ve met a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, there’s [00:35:25] a lot of entrepreneurs, people who want to drive the clinical medical, but also want to run a business. And [00:35:30] looking at that, that surprised me. Um, and therefore is a knock on effect. I was quite [00:35:35] surprised by the commercial aspect in some regions and certainly in North America, you know, discussions [00:35:40] we’re having with practice managers, practice owners, how do you scale the revenue, etc.. That’s surprising me a little bit. [00:35:45] And what also surprised me was when I went more to Asia, the [00:35:50] lack of investment in oral health, you know, I everyone takes [00:35:55] good care of their teeth, right? And I’m a clinician and I can’t stand their breath. There’s something going on [00:36:00] here, right? Like, why is that? And I’m like, why, why are we [00:36:05] so much more developed here in the West? And certainly kind of Western Europe and North America than we are [00:36:10] in China. Japan when it comes to oral health. What’s the underlying cause for that? That completely surprised me. And [00:36:15] I wonder, and this is a complete hypothesis, right? Is it truly about the clinical research [00:36:20] that we’ve done there versus here and the acceptance of clinical research? I don’t know. Um, [00:36:25] but that really shocked me. It really shocked me when I came into the category.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:36:30] I mean, I remember during Covid, some of the, [00:36:35] when you say businessmen, the people that even [00:36:40] a single practice owner, some of the resourcefulness that people showed at that time, [00:36:45] you know, getting, getting their team on board, communicating with their patients, all the PPE [00:36:50] stuff, when really we didn’t know what was going to happen. No one knew what was going [00:36:55] to happen. Some people, I remember thinking, what the hell is going to happen to our whole business [00:37:00] at that same time? There were people investing heavily, building out, [00:37:05] adding extra surgeries, you know, Confident in the idea that things [00:37:10] will get back to normal again. And as a profession, I think, you know, I [00:37:15] think we’re lucky in one sense that in in an uptime, [00:37:20] we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in a recession we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:37:25] there aren’t many businesses like that.

Andrew Bower: There isn’t. And there is the, the capital, shall [00:37:30] we say, play in Covid where, you know, it’s a time to invest when the market’s down, right? Yeah, yeah. [00:37:35] Down people to invest. So if you’re selling, people are doing that. But I agree with you. It is relatively [00:37:40] robust shall we say. Um, I think we’re seeing increased consolidation [00:37:45] across the board. And, and I think why I think we’re seeing that [00:37:50] is due to the administration side of things, right. Administration doesn’t get [00:37:55] easier. It gets more intense. And how can I offload that to focus on my practice [00:38:00] and the care I provide?

Payman Langroudi: I think when you deal with Bupa [00:38:05] As as a group. And then when you deal with other groups, you see [00:38:10] how differently people manage their businesses completely. And by the way, every [00:38:15] single practice, I must have visited a thousand practices. Each one is very different where [00:38:20] you’d imagine everything’s very similar. Um, and at this conference, I’ve noticed [00:38:25] and you guys really massive kudos to Bupa that I find it difficult [00:38:30] getting culture over to our 35 people.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you guys are 8000 [00:38:35] people and you’ve got the same sort of feeling, nice feeling [00:38:40] in the atmosphere of this conference. How do you guys deal with culture? What is [00:38:45] it to be working at Philips? What’s the difference between working at Philips and working somewhere else? [00:38:50]

Andrew Bower: It sounds it’s all about purpose. You know, every person you speak to at Philips is about the purpose, [00:38:55] and the purpose is about improving lives. And yes, it is a a big corporate enterprise. [00:39:00] And we play in every corner of the world. But everyone is motivated to drive positive [00:39:05] outcomes for either patients or consumers and clinicians. And [00:39:10] that purpose is what drives, drives us and being very single minded on that. Um, that’s [00:39:15] the rallying message. And I think that’s been.

Payman Langroudi: Practically how do you do it? I mean.

Andrew Bower: Oh, practically. [00:39:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an office in Jakarta and you want to change something. How do [00:39:25] you get that story through so many people, how.

Andrew Bower: We do things like this, right. We do things like this conference. Yeah, yeah. You know, [00:39:30] we bring people from around the globe together. We bring them together twice a year. We talk about what’s coming, [00:39:35] what’s working, what are we going to do next? And we’ve got, since Covid, [00:39:40] shall we say, incredibly good at doing all of that virtually. Yeah. You know, we have big regional hubs. We will [00:39:45] do a big event like this. We’ll bring people in. We’ll also do big watch parties, you know, and we’ll try and drive that [00:39:50] message. And then we’ll repeat that message every time we travel and we’re in there and we’ll host something to do [00:39:55] the same thing. But repetition is key, and creating a sense of belonging [00:40:00] is absolutely key. You know, you’ve got a sense of purpose, you’ve got a sense of belonging, and you feel empowered to do your work. [00:40:05] People are very loyal and people want to achieve good things. And that’s absolutely critical [00:40:10] for driving, shall we say, engagement and driving successful outcomes, both clinically [00:40:15] but also financially.

Payman Langroudi: How have you guys implemented AI in the business so [00:40:20] far? Do you see it as being much bigger thing going [00:40:25] forward?

Andrew Bower: I think AI is going to revolutionise everything we do. I think [00:40:30] we will lead with people, will drive process with AI, and [00:40:35] we are continuously looking at user cases and piloting [00:40:40] across the business, whether that’s supply chain, whether that’s R&D, whether [00:40:45] that’s marketing, whether that’s Dental. Ai is adopted everywhere, [00:40:50] and we are on a absolute mantra to get everybody [00:40:55] using AI every day to ensure that they can drive efficiencies. I [00:41:00] think, And I. And I think it’s going to truly help. I think [00:41:05] the one thing that we’re not talking about AI is the rising cost of AI. You know.

Payman Langroudi: The token [00:41:10] cost.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, the token cost, the token cost is incredibly, incredibly low. But it’s a big business [00:41:15] risk, right? That will go up. The more we get addicted, the more it’s going to go up. So it’s something we [00:41:20] have to plan for. You know, as we look at risk profiling as a business that actually the cost of AI [00:41:25] is going to is going to tremendously increase as we we continue then. [00:41:30]

Payman Langroudi: Have you had a frank conversation about job losses at Philips [00:41:35] because of AI?

Andrew Bower: Um. We. [00:41:40] The job losses, [00:41:45] productivity, as we would call it, productivity. Yes [00:41:50] and no. Right. Have we got to the stage yet where we think AI is replacing [00:41:55] people? No. Do we think we can make people more efficient? Yes. Could that lead to productivity [00:42:00] in the long term potentially, or it means the repurposing of people where we are. You know, I [00:42:05] take my my example, right? We’ve got a, you know, a workforce [00:42:10] in the US who visiting dentists every day. And I’ve also got a big workforce [00:42:15] who sat in a central office in Nashville who are answering customer calls. Yeah. Do I [00:42:20] believe that we can enhance that customer experience and that 100% [00:42:25] with AI? Do I think we could use that workforce 100%? Can I reapply that into [00:42:30] the field 100%? I want to focus on building relationships and automate everything [00:42:35] else we can do. To me. I see it more as repurpose and focus [00:42:40] on the people and then optimise where we can with with automation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good way [00:42:45] of looking at it, but but at the same time, you know, the two things must go together. If you can increase [00:42:50] productivity with fewer people, then there [00:42:55] must be a conversation, which I don’t hear the conversation very much at all anywhere.

Andrew Bower: No, it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: What happens when [00:43:00] people lose their jobs.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: Not only to them, what happens to all of us. [00:43:05]

Andrew Bower: Happens to all of us. No, I fully.

Payman Langroudi: Agree with toothbrushes.

Andrew Bower: I fully agree with you. And I think to me, the question is, is it about people losing jobs or [00:43:10] can you drive? Exponential growth in the business.

Payman Langroudi: Continued across the board?

Andrew Bower: No. Or can you drive that? [00:43:15] Can that can I help us drive step change to growth of the business that allows us to continuously invest in people? [00:43:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Andrew Bower: To have you. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: If there’s any questions, the QR code and I’ll read [00:43:30] out some of my favourites. Has anyone got any questions. Oh there are. What [00:43:35] is your ultimate [00:43:40] day look like. Oh personal or professional.

Andrew Bower: Oh my ultimate day. [00:43:45] Ultimate day. Get up, get up at six. Jim. Jim by 630 in the office by 830. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that? Anyway?

Andrew Bower: I do that three times a week in the office. 830 If I’m in [00:43:55] the office, ideally speaking to a customer or a consumer first thing, either [00:44:00] connect or go and visit one. Come back. Then, with the team reviewing [00:44:05] whatever projects we have going on, and then ideally spend a bit [00:44:10] of time at the end of the day, uh, reading consumer or clinical verbatims [00:44:15] of what’s happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:44:20] you going to fight to zoom versus enlighten? I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that’s a great one.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymous question. [00:44:25] Everyone [00:44:30] talks about AI and 3D printing, [00:44:35] but what’s on trend in dentistry for 2040 that you think is totally overhyped right now? What a. [00:44:40]

Andrew Bower: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant, brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: What’s overhyped? Brilliant [00:44:45] question, brilliant question. I [00:44:50] could argue systemic health.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, everyone’s [00:44:55] talking about it.

Andrew Bower: Talking about it. We’ve got a long way to go to it, right? Um, again, [00:45:00] you know, you’ve got to drive visibility. [00:45:05] Visibility creates a bias to action. And is it how deep does it [00:45:10] have to go to make people just care, take better care of themselves?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Another, [00:45:15] another mischievous one. What sets Sonicare apart from Oral-B? I don’t [00:45:20] need to answer.

Andrew Bower: Give me 30s for the pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Go for it, go [00:45:25] for it.

Andrew Bower: Look, I think our job is to drive manual to power conversion, right? We want people who are using a manual [00:45:30] toothbrush to use a Sonicare. And I believe Sonicare is an easier way to transition because you don’t have to [00:45:35] change your behaviour how you brush. So convert with Sonicare. Do you use a Sonicare?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I do.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:40]

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Andrew Bower: It.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I do, I do. It’s my favourite.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t tried the incumbent. Sorry. The new the new insurgent that [00:45:50] everyone’s talking about. Interesting question. Philips is an $18 billion [00:45:55] global health tech. Org with heavy regulatory, safety and quality obligations [00:46:00] at smaller start ups don’t carry. How do you innovate at speed, especially when [00:46:05] clinicians increasingly want to trial new solutions quickly and start-ups can iterate in [00:46:10] days rather than quarters. What a brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: A brilliant question, and hit the nail on the head, right? How [00:46:15] do you drive agility in a corporate, in a corporate? And that’s actually one of the key challenges, right? Yeah. [00:46:20] We have to continuously look at how we drive that agility to keep up speed, but [00:46:25] nothing compromises on quality. And what I mean quality, I mean also [00:46:30] regulatory. And I also mean clinical efficacy. So we will only deliver products that [00:46:35] truly add a benefit. And that takes a little bit longer than me going to China buying a toothbrush and put it on the market. [00:46:40] I could do that tomorrow. I won’t do that. I’ll make sure that it works. Yeah. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but the question still stands insomuch as how, how do you do, [00:46:50] how do you do agility across such a.

Andrew Bower: So I think for us Supertanker. Well, it comes back [00:46:55] to. Actually, it comes back to your first question. How far ahead do you think. Yeah. You think on a ten year horizon [00:47:00] it’s actually not about the agility of the day. It’s about actually predicting the future and making [00:47:05] sure you have your work streams in place to deliver on that, on a cadence that makes sense. And actually [00:47:10] looking at the business cadence of what you deliver is the key to beating that, because then it’s [00:47:15] sustainable and it’s replicable and builds off platforms which are critical for [00:47:20] delivering.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Mark talks about legacy. [00:47:25]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want your legacy to be in your time?

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:47:30] my legacy to be. That’s a good question. Yeah, I think. I [00:47:35] want my legacy to be [00:47:40] that we’ve managed to again, we’ve, I’ve significantly created products and services that [00:47:45] have improved patients and consumers lives. So if I can look back on my career and say, [00:47:50] actually, these devices or services made an impact to improve someone’s well-being [00:47:55] on a day to day basis. I’d be very happy.

Payman Langroudi: Final Dental [00:48:00] Leaders question. We tend to end with the fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [00:48:05] three guests. Dead or alive.

Andrew Bower: Ernest Shackleton.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Fantastic [00:48:10] leadership story and survival. Probably one of the greatest.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [00:48:15] tell the audience. If someone.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, if you don’t know. He went. He went down to the South Pole, got stuck, spent [00:48:20] a winter trying to get out of there, then made a small boat, sailed it for another [00:48:25] few months across the Southern Ocean. Hit an island, hiked over an island, [00:48:30] came back a year later, and not one of his team members had died. Tremendous story. [00:48:35] I think Leonardo da Vinci. I think fabulous, creative, [00:48:40] but also engineer. I admire his engineering.

Payman Langroudi: Both sides.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. And I [00:48:45] admire his engineering more than his art, if I’m honest with you. I think absolute genius when it comes to engineering, [00:48:50] which is absolutely fascinating. And I’m just personally [00:48:55] interested in Nelson Mandela also from his leadership, leadership and [00:49:00] tenacity. How do you continue to keep going when the, shall [00:49:05] we say, the bricks or whatever is pretty low? Yeah. So yeah, I think it’d be quite a fun dinner. [00:49:10] Well, it might not be that fun, but it’d be really interesting doing a party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a pleasure [00:49:15] having you. Thank you.

Andrew Bower: For being.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Andrew Bower: Open. Thank you for being here. And to you for having me here. Thank you. Appreciate [00:49:20] it. It [00:49:25] was a bit of joining in there. I like that.

Andrew Bower: So now it’s time for the final session of the day. [00:49:30] I’m going to spend about 90 minutes taking you through everything that we’ve covered. No, seriously. [00:49:35] I’m just going to do a few wrap up comments just to finish the day before I do [00:49:40] that. I must do this now. Otherwise I will forget. I’ve got to take a selfie with the whole [00:49:45] audience. So come on, show some energy like you’re enjoying yourself. Brilliant. [00:49:50] That will be on Mark Alan Dental [00:49:55] on Instagram later. I’ve I’ve got 803 followers now, so I’m [00:50:00] doing quite well. Maybe I can get to 810 by the end of the the the day. So yeah, [00:50:05] just a few closing thoughts from me. Um, first of all, I want to say a massive [00:50:10] thank you to everyone who’s been involved in putting this incredible event together. Firstly, [00:50:15] our sponsors, you’ve seen their names all over the shop on the screen, you’ve seen their [00:50:20] videos, you’ve seen their stands. And none of this would be possible without the contribution that they [00:50:25] make. So a massive thank you to everyone who’s been involved from that perspective. Um, [00:50:30] ICC [00:50:35] Birmingham, I think it’s been a tremendous location. We’ve basically taken the whole place over [00:50:40] for two days. You’ve seen Dental health is live. You’ve seen Bupa dental care everywhere, but [00:50:45] the way the venues worked and the support we’ve had has also been amazing, as has the support we’ve had from [00:50:50] telex.

Andrew Bower: Who are the team you see buzzing around, miking us up and making sure everything runs to plan? [00:50:55] So thank you to both ICC Birmingham and Telex. And [00:51:00] the biggest thank [00:51:05] you is to the team of people who’ve put this together. We started the journey of doing [00:51:10] the second Dental Health is live conference about a year ago. So much earlier than the [00:51:15] last one. Um, the team have done an incredible job. If you saw how smoothly [00:51:20] the organisation has gone, um, the, the, what’s the right, the right [00:51:25] word, they just haven’t been demanding of, of any of our time. They’ve asked us for decisions when we’ve needed them. [00:51:30] They’ve given us everything we needed. I went on and on and on about the need for [00:51:35] a beating blue heart, wherever you can see it. And they managed to deliver that. Um, honestly, [00:51:40] the organisation has been incredible and the working party, you all know who you are [00:51:45] have been superb, but in particular, Christian and Vicky, who’ve been at the forefront [00:51:50] of everything, have done an unbelievable job of putting something like this together. It’s really hard to do. [00:51:55] So thank you so much for creating the experience. So [00:52:05] you’ve probably noticed over the last two days, pretty much everything has been put together and hangs [00:52:10] on this, this formula here, the four P’s, the new places rather than practices. [00:52:15]

Andrew Bower: And then we introduced this concept of, of as one, this incredible [00:52:20] opportunity that we’ve got with all of these unique assets that we have within the Bupa group that [00:52:25] make us different to all of our competitors. And the other thing that’s been really true, I think about [00:52:30] as one is even yesterday when I was on the stage, I still felt a bit like we were still talking about [00:52:35] Bupa like some other company. Um, but I feel like somehow in the last 24 hours that’s [00:52:40] evaporated and I genuinely feel like I’m in a room of people who either work with Bupa as clinicians [00:52:45] or work for Bupa as employees. And trust me, that is incredibly powerful [00:52:50] for us to be able to now move forward as one organisation, all pointing in the same direction, and then enabling [00:52:55] us to deliver that performance health that we’re looking to do, which, as we said yesterday, enables [00:53:00] us then to keep reinvesting in the business and keep moving forward and making sure that we can be at the forefront [00:53:05] of that 2040 picture that we just heard about. Um, I hope [00:53:10] you’ve all got over the shock of a bunch of dancers appearing at the start of yesterday. Um, I, [00:53:15] I’ve watched that video back about 30 times and it gave me real energy. Um, and if [00:53:20] you remember, when I came on, I talked about that piece that they did being about empowerment.

Andrew Bower: And we said over [00:53:25] these two days, our job with all of you is to try and harness the energy here and unlock [00:53:30] something special so that we can go and do amazing things together. Um, and I feel [00:53:35] like again, that’s been really harnessed and the energy, honestly, over the last two days has been absolutely [00:53:40] superb. I guess the thing with conferences like this is. [00:53:45] First of all, they do cost a lot of money. Secondly, they take a bit of time in organising. [00:53:50] There’s a massive sacrifice from all of you to be here. Clinicians not being in in [00:53:55] surgery, you not being in your practices. Um, I saw the trading results from yesterday [00:54:00] at 1040 this morning and I felt a little bit sick and a bit depressed. Um, [00:54:05] but this is a massive investment and it’s only worth doing if we move beyond [00:54:10] just having a really nice time for two days. But if we go back to our practices, to our support [00:54:15] centre, to our functions, and basically decide that we’re going to start doing things even better [00:54:20] tomorrow, we’re going to take the stuff that we’ve taken on board, the things that you’ve learned in the in the [00:54:25] clinical sessions or the, the other learning sessions, or just the messages that you’ve picked up or the conversations [00:54:30] that you’ve had.

Andrew Bower: We have to take that and then kick on again tomorrow. And it’s [00:54:35] not about doing loads more new things. It’s about taking the spirit of this conference [00:54:40] and integrating it into your to do lists and resolving to be even better and just fill those gaps, [00:54:45] particularly that piece around the leaky bucket. So please do take this and take [00:54:50] it back in with you. Um, tomorrow there is a dental health is live [00:54:55] um, toolkit in a box. I think that’s on its way to you that you can then go back and share [00:55:00] with your practices and try and keep that spirit going. So please do everything you can to, to really [00:55:05] make sure we keep this energy going. And the final thing for me really is [00:55:10] just to say a massive thank you to all of you. Honestly, it’s been a real privilege to be part [00:55:15] of it. It’s been really great to be able to spend time with, with, with all of you watching the energy last night, [00:55:20] even people trying to drag me up. I did make it onto the dance floor. I was in the centre of the [00:55:25] mosh pit, which I thought was fine. Um, but my dance lie at the start of yesterday’s [00:55:30] session was exposed when I saw a video this morning of some really, really bad dad dancing.

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:55:35] but your energy’s been really superb. And what’s been really energising [00:55:40] for me personally is two things. One is the number of people who’ve come up to tell me [00:55:45] that the things that we’re doing are making a difference. So, you know, I’ve got this new chair. Thank you. [00:55:50] This has been great. Or I’ve learned something. That session really moved me. All of that stuff is great. [00:55:55] But what’s just as powerful is a number of you have still come up and said, can I talk to you? In fact, I’ve [00:56:00] seen you out of the corner of my eye, waiting while I’m talking to someone else. And I’ve spoken to you and you’ve [00:56:05] said, thank you for the conference. It’s been great, but can I tell you about something that’s still not good enough? And [00:56:10] that is what will help us move forward. We mustn’t lose that ability to keep calling out the things that we need [00:56:15] to do better, and particularly that us as a Dental executive team need to stay focussed [00:56:20] on so we make your lives easier so you can carry on doing amazing things for our patients. So thank [00:56:25] you so much for everything. It’s a real privilege to to have been here with you over the last two days. [00:56:30] And please have a safe journey back to wherever you’re travelling. So thanks very much.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know. The more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Dipesh Parmar. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] makeover.com for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me [00:00:50] great pleasure to welcome Ian Dunn onto the podcast. Ian is a specialist periodontist [00:00:55] um taught at Liverpool You clan, I noticed [00:01:00] and also teach GDPs on as well with the um, perio [00:01:05] courses. That’s right. Um, massive pleasure to have you, my buddy. Thanks for coming. Finally. [00:01:10] It’s been.

Payman Langroudi: A pleasure. I know we’ve been talking about this for a very long time, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I remember getting the message from you about a [00:01:15] couple of weeks ago saying, where are we up to with this? And yeah, the last message before that was about nine months ago, I think. So [00:01:20] somehow we got lost in the aether, didn’t we?

Payman Langroudi: And you’re a Scouser? Born and bred.

Payman Langroudi: I am, yeah, for my [00:01:25] sins. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what, the University of Liverpool as well?

Payman Langroudi: No. Uh, I [00:01:30] chose I went to Leeds. Yeah. Um, but then I ended up moving straight [00:01:35] back because my girlfriend at the time was also from Liverpool. Um, and she was [00:01:40] a solicitor, so she got her first legal job there and that dragged us, dragged me back to Liverpool [00:01:45] to sort of be with her.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your wife.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Yeah. And she is now my wife, so it was a good move. [00:01:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you meet him in university?

Payman Langroudi: No, we actually met at home. Believe it or not, she was at university [00:01:55] in Manchester. Um, we met at home. We struck up a relationship. We made it work while [00:02:00] we were both away at uni, and, uh. Yeah, it’s. We’ve all lived happily ever after.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] which which student were you?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:02:10] was probably I was a bit of a work hard, play hard type person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:15] I was certainly successful humans. Yeah. I needed [00:02:20] to work hard. I don’t think I’m naturally gifted in terms of intelligence. I’m not stupid, [00:02:25] but I’m not super academic. Um, I don’t mind telling you, I reset [00:02:30] one of my A-levels because I dipped out initially and did an extra year to go, you know, get what I [00:02:35] wanted. I do think once I got to university, I did thrive because I’d found the thing [00:02:40] that I loved and I found studying much easier than I had found my A-levels.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I really did. [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s different. Yeah, people get shocked. I got shocked in university. Biochemistry and anatomy. [00:02:50] I broke my heart.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t get me wrong, the first year was a chore. But once I hit the clinical bit, I. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Love.

Payman Langroudi: That. I loved it, I absolutely loved it. Um, and so yeah, [00:03:00] but then in, in the background, I was a swimmer and water polo player. So I captained [00:03:05] the water polo team at the university. So that was a big part of my life. And also a big part of the social, [00:03:10] the social scene. Um, and I was the first person to put my hand up for a party or, you [00:03:15] know, so I really did. Yeah. University was just.

Payman Langroudi: Which one were you? What years were you in Leeds? [00:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: 93 to 98. It’s a really good time. Leeds was changing. It went from [00:03:25] a sort of a Yorkshire city town to what was quite a sort of booming, [00:03:30] more cosmopolitan city. Harvey Nicks came to Leeds at that time.

Payman Langroudi: I remember.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:03:35] and it was great. It was a great time to be a student in Leeds, really was.

Payman Langroudi: I was there recently for a [00:03:40] okay. And it reminded me that back when we started enlightened, obviously, [00:03:45] I used to go see dentists and stuff, and I’d been to Leeds a few times and [00:03:50] I got almost like a weird sort of a flashback of [00:03:55] because it’s that pedestrianised zone, isn’t it? And I used to carry this light activated [00:04:00] machine. Teeth whitening, teeth whitening machine in Leeds. I [00:04:05] walked into a place. Do you remember those Polaroid cameras? Yeah, they were for Dental. They [00:04:10] were?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Yeah. So I walked into this practice carrying this machine [00:04:15] and a computer and all that.

Payman Langroudi: And they were huge, weren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And the camera around my neck. And I remember [00:04:20] I pushed the button by mistake and took a photo. I was like, I took a photo. [00:04:25] It’s a joke, man. Um, so did you think [00:04:30] that you made a decision to be very good at dentistry [00:04:35] in university or after that? Because obviously this decision came [00:04:40] in at one point when you said you want to do periodontics, but years later. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [00:04:45] I’d like to think that that was more of an accident, if I’m being truly honest. I see a lot of young graduates who [00:04:50] are very focussed and very driven. Um, I think we’re a similar vintage when you go back. I [00:04:55] qualified in 98, and that was the year that the high street specialist list was sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of coming out. [00:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: That was the that was the year it became on the scene. So prior to that, you either were a GDP or you [00:05:05] were a hospital specialist. There wasn’t really a blurred sort of high street specialist. There was 1 [00:05:10] or 2. There was your Mike Wiser’s. And in the North West we had people like David Cohen, the Endodontist [00:05:15] and Phil Green. But it really wasn’t a thing. Um, and so none of us really, [00:05:20] at that time thought about specialisation unless you knew you wanted a career in the hospital. So [00:05:25] I enjoyed my university and I didn’t want to be rubbish, but I don’t [00:05:30] think I set myself out to be anything special. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you, I mean, did you have [00:05:35] dentists or medics in the family?

Payman Langroudi: I’m the first person in my family to go to university. Really? So my dad [00:05:40] was a policeman. Uh, my mum worked for, of all things master suite company. Really? [00:05:45] So, uh, sort of the reverse of Willy Wonka. So the dentist, Dad [00:05:50] and the chocolatey taste son were the other way around.

Payman Langroudi: So why dentist? How did it come about?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:05:55] that’s another story. So I did maths, physics and chemistry, with maths [00:06:00] and physics being my strong subjects. Me too. Um. Pick my A-levels with a view to being an engineer. [00:06:05] And I remember going to a careers day at Liverpool University to decide [00:06:10] on whether I was going to do chemical, electrical, mechanical. And every lecture I [00:06:15] went into, I walked out going, yeah, it’s not that one. And then I go to the next one and walk out. It’s not [00:06:20] that one. And then I got to the end and I was like, oh God, I don’t know what I’m going to do. And genuinely, [00:06:25] there was a panic. Um, so I then went to a, [00:06:30] a careers evening at my school. Um, this is at lower [00:06:35] sixth and I’ve got to make a decision by the Christmas for my Ucca form, as we called [00:06:40] it back then. Yeah. And I really didn’t have a clue because engineering was written off for [00:06:45] me. It had not no one had shown me anything that ticked the boxes. And so I.

Payman Langroudi: Went. Maths [00:06:50] in engineering isn’t it? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very maths heavy.

Payman Langroudi: It, maths and physics. But it was what I was good at [00:06:55] and that’s why I thought that’s what I was going to do. Yeah. Um and then I picked the [00:07:00] most eclectic bunch of uh, careers to go and listen to. I went to the [00:07:05] RAF, I went to law, I went to something in sports science [00:07:10] and I went to dentistry and a guy called George Lee from Liverpool University. He was [00:07:15] a paediatric consultant. He just he said a few things that made me think, [00:07:20] do you know what that’s that sounds all right. He sort of. He sold the fact that there was a science element. He [00:07:25] sold the fact that, you know, every day is different. He sold the fact that if you [00:07:30] like, if you like people, dentistry is a great job. Um, I think too [00:07:35] many people go into dentistry who don’t like people, I think, I think, and they found that very stressful. [00:07:40] And I remember leaving that, that careers evening, uh, and a load of us bear [00:07:45] in mind, we were lower six. We all went to the pub that night and um, we were chatting [00:07:50] about, you know, what we’d seen, what we’d listened to and people saying, you know, what are you going to do? I said, you know what [00:07:55] I think? I think I might look into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And everyone was flabbergasted. People called [00:08:00] me a money grubbing, all sorts. And I actually genuinely didn’t know any dentists [00:08:05] apart from my own, um, didn’t know that there was that legacy, but just [00:08:10] thought it seemed like a good job. Um, my mum walked down to the bottom of [00:08:15] our road and knocked on the the practice door at the bottom and asked if I could [00:08:20] do some work experience. Uh, and I went and did some work experience with two dentists, Clive [00:08:25] Harden and Mike Horwich. So you’ll know from Simply Endo. Yeah, well, he was just a local GDP at [00:08:30] the time really. And I went and spent a couple of days with those guys and just thought, you know what? [00:08:35] That’s it. That to me seems like a really great job. Um, if, [00:08:40] if they’ve not gone to that lecture by George Lee, I’d probably be doing something totally different. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The sliding door.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Feels that way, to be honest. I’ve [00:08:50] got a few of those in my career, but that was definitely one of them. Dentistry was not on the table, not [00:08:55] in the family.

Payman Langroudi: Had you gone to a comprehensive school?

Payman Langroudi: It [00:09:00] was a state school, but it was essentially a state grammar school. A bit [00:09:05] a little bit different, but selective entry. But we didn’t it wasn’t private. We didn’t pay to go. Um, [00:09:10] very good school. We did. The school does very well still. Um, [00:09:15] but yeah, just a bit of a strange. It was far from a comprehensive, equally it wasn’t [00:09:20] privately funded.

Payman Langroudi: But what was going through your head, I mean, being the first person to go to university [00:09:25] in your family. Um, I’ve heard I’ve had other people sitting where you’re sitting telling me they had like a sort [00:09:30] of inferiority complex, thinking of coming from a state school. I suppose this one was quite a quality [00:09:35] state school. It was the you see, sometimes people go [00:09:40] to private school. The. The one big difference You see, it’s like almost false confidence. [00:09:45] Your kids or something.

Payman Langroudi: No, no that’s not that’s not reasonable. I think [00:09:50] you’re right. The school environment I was in was it ran like a grammar school. [00:09:55] There were prefects. There were uniforms all the way through. There were everyone was.

Payman Langroudi: Well behaved and.

Payman Langroudi: Generally. [00:10:00] Yes, you know, as much as possible. Schools have characters. Yeah. Um but there was [00:10:05] a, there was an academic, a real academic push. If you got [00:10:10] through to your A-levels, you were, you were sort of expected to go to university though. So I think I’d sort of [00:10:15] gone through the school thinking, well, if I pass my exams, well, I’ll go from GCSEs [00:10:20] to A-levels over passed my A-levels, I’ll go from A-levels to to university. That just seemed to be natural [00:10:25] progression. The fact that my family had never done that didn’t really mind. Um, [00:10:30] and I think the only difficult bit was really I remember my dad saying to me when I was trying to decide what [00:10:35] to do, I can’t really advise you on anything because we’ve never done it. Um, and he was always [00:10:40] very honest, But I’ve got to be, to be fair, both very supportive.

Payman Langroudi: So how high [00:10:45] had your dad gone in the police?

Payman Langroudi: He was a constable all the way through to retirement.

Payman Langroudi: So reflections [00:10:50] of like the son of a policeman. Like what? What.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:10:55] I’ll tell you what, my wife’s father was also a policeman. He went very senior police officer. [00:11:00] Um, but we, my wife and I both, we’ve talked about this recently. We have a very [00:11:05] strong sense of right and wrong and fairness. And that comes from [00:11:10] a law and order background. Mhm. Um, never really thought about [00:11:15] it too much, but but growing up in Liverpool in the sort of 80s, I suppose [00:11:20] Toxteth.

Payman Langroudi: Riots.

Payman Langroudi: Toxteth riots in the 80s, my dad policed the Toxteth riots.

Payman Langroudi: Did he, did he.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:11:25] and there was a little bit of animosity towards children of policemen amongst [00:11:30] certain people. Even though we were in a fairly middle class school, there were still some people who gave you [00:11:35] a bit of a difficult time about that. Um, deep down I was quite proud of what my dad did. It was, [00:11:40] you know, it was one of those jobs. You could say, well, it’s a right and wrong. Catching the bad guys type thing. [00:11:45] Um, but yeah, it was there were challenges, there’s no doubt about it. A few people made things a bit [00:11:50] difficult at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So you say you’ve got this sort of ethical dimension in your thinking.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [00:11:55] like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example. I [00:12:00] mean, a nuanced one, right? Not, not an obvious one. For instance, let’s start. Let’s start [00:12:05] with, you know, what is it to be a professional? You know, in dentistry, there’s plenty of scope, isn’t there, to, [00:12:10] to go off, off piste or, you know, no one’s really [00:12:15] looking over your shoulder. No. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, do you know you’ve already nailed it there. I’ve [00:12:20] seen this recently and I’ve, I completely agree. Being a professional is doing the right thing [00:12:25] when no one else is watching. And even when that thing that you’re doing may not be to your benefit, [00:12:30] it might be to your financial detriment, but it’s the right thing to do at the time for that [00:12:35] patient that is part of a professional approach to a clinician. [00:12:40] Um, I think there’s also elements of just general behaviour. You know, I think the way you live your [00:12:45] life, the, the way you publicise yourself to the public, [00:12:50] you know, that that upholds hopefully trust in the profession. Um, [00:12:55] and I think there’s elements of that that is being diluted. Um, uh, social media [00:13:00] does that, doesn’t it? I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Are we talking, are you thinking of, uh, private jets [00:13:05] and um, that, that whole.

Payman Langroudi: Not even just that I mean, that reinforces the stereotype [00:13:10] that dentistry is all about finance and money. And whilst for some people, I think it is, I [00:13:15] spend a lot of time, I have a lot of people come and shadow me in the practice, a lot of um, foundation dentists, a lot [00:13:20] of people who are thinking of getting into perio, so many good people in dentistry who really [00:13:25] are just in it for the patient and just want to do the right thing, that I’d love that [00:13:30] to be seen more by the public. And I don’t think it is because we’re in a world of who shouts [00:13:35] the loudest gets the most attention. Um, and I do think that to [00:13:40] a point waters down professional the profession, whether whether we say professionalism. [00:13:45] But I think deep down it’s putting the patient first, doing the right thing. [00:13:50] Um, even like, even like when you said no one’s really over your shoulder at [00:13:55] some point, those things when you’re doing the wrong thing and they’re going to come back and bite you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Or not. Right. [00:14:00] But as you say, as you say, the one of the cornerstones of being a professional is that [00:14:05] I mean, it’s interesting because, you know, there’s, there are benefits to being a professional. [00:14:10] Yeah. Take it down to simple, you know, why, why do they patients come to you [00:14:15] to sign off their passports? Yeah. There’s a, there’s a, there’s an ethical dimension there. They’re not saying, go [00:14:20] to the pizza guy and sign your passport. And so with those benefits come responsibilities. [00:14:25] And I think the number one one in dentistry is that question of trust and [00:14:30] the privilege of the patient privilege of, of patient allowing you to be their [00:14:35] dentist and taking that seriously. Right. And you’re right, that conversation may not be had [00:14:40] enough on social. I think you mean social social. [00:14:45] Focusing on the wrong things.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is. I think you know that that doing [00:14:50] the right thing for the patient is probably not talked about. It’s not celebrated enough. [00:14:55] I think plenty of people do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um Kelleher and the daughter test [00:15:00] kind of thing was in our day was was a thing wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. And I think [00:15:05] I do think those tests still apply. Um, I genuinely [00:15:10] think, I like to think every night when I go to bed, every patient that see me that day is [00:15:15] better off for having seen me for sure. Genuinely clinically better off. Yes, they’ve [00:15:20] paid and they’ll pay, you know, handsomely for specialist care. But, you know, it’s rare that [00:15:25] we’re doing stuff to people that they don’t benefit from. And there isn’t ultimately an underlying [00:15:30] negative to what we’ve just done. I mean, we all have mistakes. And yeah, I’m sure you might cover those [00:15:35] later on.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll be going into those.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, I think generally I like to, you know, I put my head [00:15:40] on the pillow and think, you know what? Today I’ve helped people, uh, people are better off and haven’t been under my [00:15:45] care. And that’s quite a nice feeling. I don’t ever sit there thinking, oh, that was [00:15:50] a bit dodgy or give them a time again. I wouldn’t do that again. You know, I lie with my head on the pillow [00:15:55] because I’ve got a family and I’m happy to tell patients, no, that I won’t do stuff. You [00:16:00] know, what people want. And what I’m prepared to do is a fine balance. You know, I’ll always do what’s right. And I’ll always try and save [00:16:05] people from themselves, um, and guide them as best possible. Uh, and I [00:16:10] think.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s kind of interesting as well, right? Because, you know, the daughter test, would [00:16:15] you do this treatment on your own daughter? Yeah, yeah. It kind of ignores the consent [00:16:20] part of, of it because, you know, it’s almost like your daughter will do what she’s told by [00:16:25] you. Yeah, yeah. And it depends, man. It depends if your daughter is, uh, whatever [00:16:30] model. And she wants to drill these teeth to put [00:16:35] veneers on them, even though she’s 24. Yeah. You, as the dentist may say, I don’t [00:16:40] think that’s the right idea, but the consent point goes to once [00:16:45] you’ve given the the information to her. Yeah, it’s her decision, not [00:16:50] yours. And you know, that sort of patriarchal thing that that doctors and dentists used to know best. Yeah. [00:16:55] That’s certainly not the case anymore. Right.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s fair as long as the consent [00:17:00] is valid. Yeah. Because we all know you use the word trust [00:17:05] before. I think we all know that you could probably sell any treatment to any patient, whether [00:17:10] it be the right or the wrong treatment, because there is that trust and you can make anything sound good, bad or indifferent. [00:17:15] Yeah. So I think it goes back to validity. Have you really given the pros and the cons and [00:17:20] and that I’m not convinced is done across the board as well as it could be. And I think ultimately, [00:17:25] at the end of the day, we can reserve the right to say to the patient, look, you can have this done, but [00:17:30] I’m not going to be the person who does it. And we do that with our patients. We especially with some of our implant [00:17:35] patients, we. One of the practice policies and people don’t always agree with this is we say to [00:17:40] patients, we don’t put implants into smokers because we get increased failures, increased call [00:17:45] out increased complications. And we we stress you can have implants. Smoking [00:17:50] does not contraindicate you, but we don’t want to accept the additional risk. And we’d ask that you seek a [00:17:55] second opinion or you stop smoking, and then we’ll open up the floodgates [00:18:00] and we’ll do the very best for you. So I think you can still apply the door to test. [00:18:05] And the patient could still choose to have the treatment that you don’t think is right. I think we still reserve [00:18:10] the right not to do it and not have the attitude, well, if someone’s going to do it, I might as well do it. I still [00:18:15] I still like to think that if I don’t think it’s right, I’m actually not going to do it. And I’m [00:18:20] lucky that my chair is always going to be full. In the north west of England. There’s so few periodontists. [00:18:25] Um. I’m drowning in work. I can afford to say to people [00:18:30] this is not a case for me. Um. And walk away from it.

Payman Langroudi: Although when [00:18:35] we think back to that professional discussion, you know, I hear you, I hear you. You’re [00:18:40] saying the motivation isn’t even there. Um, but if you’re a professional, then you’re [00:18:45] not going to do that wrong thing anyway. But but but let’s, let’s move on.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:18:50] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Tell me, how many years did you practice as a generalist? [00:18:55]

Payman Langroudi: I did about seven years as an NHS GDP. [00:19:00] Um, in that time I had started [00:19:05] teaching a day a week at Liverpool. Initially, I just got [00:19:10] a job in the sort of A&E department sort of doing any old. I just wanted to be around the [00:19:15] academic institution really and get involved. So that wasn’t actually a teaching role. And [00:19:20] then the job came up. Um, and I didn’t want to be a periodontist, I. I [00:19:25] got this.

Payman Langroudi: Off the most sexy sounding.

Payman Langroudi: But true story this. I was on the clinic. [00:19:30] Um, I was, I was consenting somebody for an extraction on the A.D department [00:19:35] and a lady came in lady called Eileen Thiel. Uh, I had never met this lady before. [00:19:40] And she walked in and she said to me, are you Ian Dunn? And I said, yes. And she said, come upstairs and [00:19:45] see me. I need to speak to you. And when she walked out, I said to my nurse, who’s that? And they said, oh, [00:19:50] Eileen Thiel, what have you done wrong? Because she had this reputation for, you know, she was one of gay [00:19:55] people, a bit of a rollicking. Um, anyway, went upstairs, spoke to her and she said, oh, you know, your name [00:20:00] has been put forward as someone who’s a good guy. Keen. Um, we’ve got an opportunity for teaching. [00:20:05] And I thought, fantastic, let’s hope it’s something sexy like endo or crown and bridge [00:20:10] or um, and she said, it’s perio. And I thought, oh God. Right. Okay. And, [00:20:15] but I thought, right, I mean, because I needed to get off the ground floor at Liverpool ground floor was like the, [00:20:20] the workhorse department upstairs was teaching. I thought, just get upstairs, get this job. [00:20:25] They’ll realise I’m a good guy. They’ll give me one of the more sexy jobs. Let’s just take the job. Take the job. [00:20:30] And and that. That was the beginning of my career. Uh, there’s [00:20:35] more to that.

Payman Langroudi: But that opportunity was there, so it wasn’t initially a period job. But you asked [00:20:40] about general dentist about 7 to 8 years as a GDP Udas [00:20:45] were coming, and I wasn’t a high grossing dentist at all. Um, [00:20:50] there’s probably a story behind that, I suppose, but it wasn’t particularly high grossing dentist. Um, and [00:20:55] so I moved towards the private sector and ran [00:21:00] that alongside my one day a week. Uh, but, but I was building perio interest. I was [00:21:05] actually focusing my postgrad on perio at this point. Um, but I was very much a general dentist probably, [00:21:10] well, 2008, ten years, at least ten years doing [00:21:15] a significant chunk of general dentistry, which is, I think, again, very different [00:21:20] to modern young specialists. Uh, you know, I do think [00:21:25] one of the things that comes across when I lecture is I’ve walked a mile in most people’s shoes. [00:21:30] Um, I have done NHS, I have worked in fairly grotty, [00:21:35] you know, fully exempt type practices. I’ve done the whole shebang. [00:21:40] Um, and I think when I then teach, I’m not coming from that ivory [00:21:45] tower, sort of never seen it, never done it. Uh, and I, and I’m told that [00:21:50] comes across so, but yeah, a long time as a GDP and I’ve never lost those GDP skills. I’ve got [00:21:55] about 40 patients who followed me over the years. As far as they’re concerned, I’m their general dentist. [00:22:00] Still see them.

Payman Langroudi: And do you still teach in the hospital?

Payman Langroudi: No, I left in 2018.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:22:05] my question is, if in 2018 you were teaching and you saw a fourth [00:22:10] year student who was taking a particular interest in perio, and [00:22:15] they said, look, Ian, a love perio, Would your advice be still, [00:22:20] go out and do general first before focusing [00:22:25] in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not not even just perio. I my view is that [00:22:30] for you to be an all rounded specialist within the restorative specialities, I [00:22:35] think you’ve got to have a broad overview of how.

Payman Langroudi: Would you not get that in perio training. [00:22:40] Do they not. So I mean there must be like restorative training in period training. Right.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:22:45] do. I mean I’ve never done that mono speciality training route. And mine was a bit back to front [00:22:50] and made up as we go along a little bit. Um and I do think they, [00:22:55] you know, I listened to a couple of your podcasts, listen to Payman Minhaj. He was a Liverpool graduate from [00:23:00] when I was there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you know her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she mentioned you.

Payman Langroudi: She’s she’s going to go on and do great things. [00:23:05] Uh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Loves gums, man.

Payman Langroudi: We all love gums.

Payman Langroudi: Periodontists do love your job. [00:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of its own that we love it that much. Um, but [00:23:15] yeah, she talked about working with the people and she, you know, and I think that’s [00:23:20] there. But working in a busy general practice environment, the diagnostic skills [00:23:25] that you get from seeing the aches, the pains, the toothaches, the decision making that [00:23:30] I still use that every single day. Um, and, and I’m [00:23:35] not convinced it’s as hard wired if you’ve just done the very pure mono [00:23:40] spec programs. Don’t get me wrong, it can be everything can be learned, everything can be developed, but I do. I [00:23:45] would love to see people go into speciality training just that little bit later. It’s all [00:23:50] a bit.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of the British way of looking at it though. Like our friends across the pond, they kind [00:23:55] of go very quickly sometimes into specialist training. And do you see that as like maybe [00:24:00] potential blind spots that they’re getting into?

Payman Langroudi: I think I go back [00:24:05] to having walked a mile in someone’s shoes.

Payman Langroudi: And referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Shoes Referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching, [00:24:10] I get.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding the difficulties that you refer as a facing. It’s [00:24:15] understanding that they often. Especially if you’re working in NHS practices, you’re [00:24:20] often having to work within the compromise that the systems puts on you. And actually having been there [00:24:25] and done it, you understand it, and you probably just a little bit more forgiving and tolerant [00:24:30] of what you see when other people may not be quite as, as, uh, open [00:24:35] minded about it. You know, I think if you go through that only having done everything perfect forever, [00:24:40] then it becomes a bit, well, there’s only one way to do things and that’s the right way and perfection. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so you made the decision once you’d gotten a bit more exposed to, [00:24:50] you know, you’re going to, I guess, sacrifice to get [00:24:55] the training. Yeah. I mean, what was, what was your period training in the end?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:00] the Liverpool job was purely floor walking supervised and general dentistry. [00:25:05] Uh, the students on the perio clinic. Yeah. But I, I [00:25:10] went away because So because I had got this period job, [00:25:15] I was four years qualified. I’d done loads of courses, I’d done everything occlusion, I’d [00:25:20] done endo, I’d done crown and bridge. Had I done any perio? No, because we had a hygienist [00:25:25] and they did that and that, you know, that was NHS, that was our practice. And so [00:25:30] I thought, God, I better do some proper, I better get up to speed if I’m going to be on the clinics. And [00:25:35] so I went on a course and we can talk about that later, um, [00:25:40] to get myself up to speed. And then what I found was because I was around perio and I was teaching [00:25:45] it just only basic, you know, non-surgical therapy on the clinic. [00:25:50] And because I’d been on this course, it was a four day course. And then I’d then gone back into my [00:25:55] own practice and I was just thinking about Peri a bit more. I was then starting to get better results. [00:26:00] People in my practice were starting in the NHS saying, we’ve seen some of your patients, [00:26:05] you’re getting really good outcomes. Can we send you some of our patients? And this was this [00:26:10] was, you know, this was just brilliant because people were starting to realise I was a bit bit better than others [00:26:15] at that. Some this one, this one thing. And I just thought, you know what, in going [00:26:20] back to the northwest in back, back in the early 2000, [00:26:25] we had one periodontist in the north west of England, Philip Green in Manchester. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy isn’t it. Wasn’t that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Mental. Um and he had a fabulous [00:26:35] reputation. He was very helpful once I put my head above the radar. Um and, [00:26:40] but Philip was the only guy. Um and Scousers don’t like going to Manchester, [00:26:45] so they, you know, they didn’t want to be referred. And I just, I saw it as, do you know what, I [00:26:50] like this and I’m good at it. And there’s an opportunity here. I then became a complete nuisance [00:26:55] to the perio staff at the hospital. I just spent every spare minute, you [00:27:00] know. Can I have my lunch with you? Can I talk to you about this? Can I watch a case that you’re doing? And [00:27:05] then again, another one of those sliding door moments. Uh, Callum Johnson moved from Leeds to Liverpool [00:27:10] as head of restorative, and he basically got rid of the mono spec [00:27:15] clinics because everything was taught individually, period, pros, cons and he [00:27:20] made everything restorative. So all the GDPs who were teaching perio were [00:27:25] moved to restorative. And Eileen Thiel, the lady I mentioned before, she [00:27:30] said, I want to keep one general dentist, uh, in the perio team. We need one extra body. [00:27:35] And so she approached me and said, look, you, you’re clearly into this. Now, [00:27:40] do you want to come on part of the team? So it’s like, great. So now now I’m starting to do actual lectures [00:27:45] and I’m running tutorials.

Payman Langroudi: But still part time, right? Still part time, still [00:27:50] GDP.

Payman Langroudi: Gdp. Well, yeah, I haven’t even started my master’s at this point. Um, [00:27:55] but they sort of spoon fed me, they gave me some very basic stuff, [00:28:00] some very, they gave me presentations to learn and deliver. Um, and then [00:28:05] ultimately, slowly but surely made those things my own. Um, but again, goes [00:28:10] back to what we were talking about before the podcast about being in the right place at the right time. But then what was coming was [00:28:15] that there were basically two people in that Perry department, plus me, and one of them was heading to retirement, [00:28:20] and they needed someone to be able to do some of the perio [00:28:25] surgery in the hospital. So because I was part of the team, they then trained [00:28:30] me up in the hospital to do perio surgery. And it was literally I would nurse for one of [00:28:35] the periodontists and watch a procedure. And then the second the next procedure that same morning, [00:28:40] they’d nurse and I’d do the procedure. It was like, see one, do one, teach one almost. [00:28:45] Um, and we, we did that 2 or 3 weeks on the road, the same procedure, [00:28:50] the same type of treatment. And then they’d let me loose to go and do that basic [00:28:55] type of treatment. And once my hands were working better, they then say, right, you’re now ready to do some sort [00:29:00] of soft tissue grafting and we’ll show you that. And we did the.

Payman Langroudi: So the type of surgery you were doing [00:29:05] back then. I remember you kind of. If non-surgical wasn’t [00:29:10] working, then you’d say, oh, now let’s do it surgically. As far as Débridement and all of [00:29:15] that, that was the kind of work. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Basic sort of pocket reduction type surgery. [00:29:20] You know, old school, modified widman flap type stuff that, you know. But yeah, simple, relatively [00:29:25] simple, but very effective at the time, you know, treatment.

Payman Langroudi: But fast forward is that [00:29:30] today no longer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we still I think we do a lot less surgery than we did probably 20 years ago. [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so what’s changed our understanding of like the patients we.

Payman Langroudi: Know how well non-surgical [00:29:40] therapy works. I think we also understand our clinical end points a bit [00:29:45] better that, you know, we used to be sort of terrified of leaving a pocket over three millimetres, [00:29:50] four millimetres. And now, you know, the BSP has come out with statements that pockets over, [00:29:55] you know, five, even maybe six millimetres that don’t bleed may not be active. And we [00:30:00] can, you know, actively monitor those cases. I think also when we do do surgery, we [00:30:05] probably do a bit more regenerative stuff. We’re trying to build build back rather than just resect. [00:30:10] So I think the surgery’s moved forwards and I think we’re also a lot less it’s a lot less [00:30:15] surgically aggressive.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s more minimally invasive.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re working more towards reattachment. [00:30:20] Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Reattachment. And where we can rebuilding of the periodontal apparatus, [00:30:25] the the bone, the periodontal ligament with the regenerative techniques. But that’s there are limitations [00:30:30] with that. Um, but, but that’s developing all the time. It’s exciting where that [00:30:35] can go. But that was my hospital background. I was essentially then working as a staff grade, uh, [00:30:40] one day a week and I was still in NHS GDP, but it was off the [00:30:45] back of that, that I then realised I, I could do it, but I didn’t actually know the literature. [00:30:50] I didn’t know why I was doing the stuff sometimes. And that’s when I went off and thought, [00:30:55] right, I need to go and do a master’s now. And, and that’s, that’s what I did. And so my.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, part [00:31:00] time.

Payman Langroudi: For four year.

Payman Langroudi: For three years with it wasn’t the full sort of [00:31:05] M Clin dent down here. I went up to. Yeah, yeah. Because I was, I was I had the clinical [00:31:10] components. I was doing that sort of over the shoulder stuff for about four years or [00:31:15] more really. Um, and eventually running my own list in the hospital being referred [00:31:20] stuff from the consultants, the sort of the prosthodontists and the endodontists to do surgical [00:31:25] perio. Um, and so I had all of that sort of over the [00:31:30] shoulder hospital training, but I just needed the academic component to fill in the gaps. And that even [00:31:35] that was for my own benefit really, because I was doing the job and I was good at it, but [00:31:40] I just felt the need to almost validate myself academically and just.

Payman Langroudi: And so was it worth it [00:31:45] in terms of do you think it was it was just an itch you had to scratch or did you actually learn [00:31:50] a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I just I loved every minute of it. Did [00:31:55] you. Yeah, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Just deep dive into it.

Payman Langroudi: I decided that I love Perrier [00:32:00] and just.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted as much as.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. So it was like, tell me as much as you can. Tell me. Tell me why we [00:32:05] know this and tell me, tell me about all the classic studies and tell, you know, we I was lucky at the [00:32:10] time to be taught by um, Jose Zurdo and Cristina Romano, husband and wife team from based [00:32:15] up in the Midlands at the Carisbrook. Um, and they were, they’d been trained in Gothenburg by Jan [00:32:20] Lindhe and all like the perio gods. So I just loved every minute of spending time [00:32:25] in their company. They’re still good friends. Um, I was going back to the university [00:32:30] with all this new knowledge and annoying the periodontist there with just my enthusiasm. [00:32:35] Um, but yeah, I got, I got loads out of it. Did it make me better?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:32:40] which aspect of perio at that point turned you on because you couldn’t go deep [00:32:45] into the whole autoimmune cellular level? No perio. Or you can obviously [00:32:50] go into the surgical side. You can go.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s be honest, as a youngster, you just love to do surgery, don’t [00:32:55] you? You just.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is that it?

Payman Langroudi: You know, it was that sort of, I can do something that other people can’t do and [00:33:00] I can I can take something. You know, it. You felt different. You there was an element of [00:33:05] this is exciting. You know, surgery is exciting. I think one of the one of the running jokes, often [00:33:10] in specialist training is they can teach you surgery in three months, but it then takes three years to teach you when [00:33:15] not to do it. Um, and that’s one of the things as you, as personally as I think, [00:33:20] as we get older and more experienced, I’m less surgically aggressive than I used to [00:33:25] be. Um, just again, comes with experience and it comes from complications. [00:33:30] It comes from all sorts.

Payman Langroudi: And much less predictable than hard tissue work, [00:33:35] isn’t it? I mean, in so much, as you know, you put the gum back on that day, it looks [00:33:40] completely wrong. And then you have to sort of do it correctly so it matures into [00:33:45] the correct situation.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s very fair. And I think you [00:33:50] ask any of the implant guys who, you know, drill holes in bone, they once [00:33:55] they’ve got that skill, they. They know that’s not the skill. It’s the manipulation. Manipulation of the soft [00:34:00] tissues, the making, the making the implant look like a tooth. And not just a not just a [00:34:05] screw in bone. Um, and you look at, you know, the guys who [00:34:10] are very, very good at their implant and their soft, their plastic surgery [00:34:15] is, is as good as anyone in the country, if not the world. Um, so yeah, it’s soft tissue [00:34:20] is very, everything heals eventually, but it can also be very unforgiving. And you know, [00:34:25] when you, when you cut something hard, like a tooth or bone tends to do as it’s told. Yeah. [00:34:30] And soft tissue, you’ve got to really know how to handle Palmer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He, he’s now going [00:34:35] quite deep into plastic surgery. And he was telling me that the rate of improvement [00:34:40] is so much slower than composite. Yeah. Because it’s so unpredictable. [00:34:45] It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting that he’s going into that. I always say deep down everyone loves [00:34:50] Perrier. They just don’t know it yet. It’s a sign of maturity when you realise that perio is everything. [00:34:55] But, um. So tell him. Well done. It’s not too late.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, [00:35:00] he’s super interested in it. He’s even got a periodontist. Well, someone with a special interest work in the practice, but. [00:35:05] So I said to her, why are you bothering with this guy? Could do it. And he said, it’s just super interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then do [00:35:10] you know what? That it doesn’t matter what. When you find something you love, you [00:35:15] just want to dive into it as much as you can, don’t you? And I see that with, you know, I work with a couple of really good endo nerds [00:35:20] and, and they’re brilliant and they, they just love every aspect. I couldn’t wait to stop doing [00:35:25] endo.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think my thesis is wrong? You must have heard my. I’ve said it so many times. The notion of you [00:35:30] love whatever you’re good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really. There isn’t. There [00:35:35] isn’t a thing in your brain that makes you more loving of gums than endo. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think there’s. Oh, well. But then I would also say, I would argue that different [00:35:45] personalities are going to be good at different things, because perio has a huge chunk of psychology [00:35:50] and, and patient behaviour and communication, whereas [00:35:55] endo rubber dam on don’t speak to me just, you know, no disrespect to my endo friends [00:36:00] by the way. That’s true. But you know, it’s it’s a bit more, although when I say surgical, [00:36:05] it’s a bit more, I’m going to do this to you and it’s going to be fine perio, [00:36:10] the psychology and the behaviour of the patients and that that winning [00:36:15] them round and getting them on board, that is something I love that I don’t know that I’d get from [00:36:20] Endo. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: More to it than that question, she said. By the time they get to me, behaviour [00:36:25] change has already been sorted. Is that not correct?

Payman Langroudi: We get a self-selecting [00:36:30] group of patients, but then we also get a group of patients who, um, [00:36:35] think they can throw money at a problem and don’t have to change their behaviour. Yeah. I mean, I’ve [00:36:40] treated people who high up in the Sunday Times rich list who just think they can just throw money [00:36:45] at me and make I’ll make everything go away. But their lifestyle is chaos. Mhm. Um. [00:36:50] It’s, you know, there is a huge amount of psychology and kid [00:36:55] ology, but you are right. We have as a, as a specialist, you, you’re, [00:37:00] you’re consult fee and even just travelling to see someone is a, is a [00:37:05] barrier. And so when a patient chooses to go over that obstacle, [00:37:10] you’ve already got a self-selecting patient. You’re already halfway there. So I don’t think that’s unreasonable. [00:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: And some periodontists then kind of move very seamlessly into [00:37:20] implants. You’re one of them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, not oh well, I did, I dabbled. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh you didn’t really.

Payman Langroudi: Did not love it. Oh, really didn’t excite me as much as the perio excited [00:37:30] me. Um, why do you know? I don’t know, because the surgery [00:37:35] is is not dissimilar. Yeah. Um, I, I honestly, um, [00:37:40] Payman I can’t can’t put my finger on it, but I didn’t love it. I didn’t hate [00:37:45] it. Uh, but I did have to make a decision because again, and this has come up on a few [00:37:50] of the podcasts I’ve listened to of yours, you do have to go all in with that stuff. Yeah. The days [00:37:55] of dabbling in implants have gone, you know, placing a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive field now, [00:38:00] isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It huge? It’s a speciality on its own. And everyone accepts that, even though it’s not a specialist list thing. Um, [00:38:05] we all know who the people who are fully invested in it are. Um, [00:38:10] and for me, there was a decision. Do I go all in and, or do I not? And [00:38:15] I worked in a, I work still in a practice now with a guy called Paul Swanson who big [00:38:20] implant placer. He was part of the FDP diploma and he just did it better than [00:38:25] me. They were. When I restored his implants, they restored them my own. My [00:38:30] hourly rate would drop when I did implant work because it wasn’t something I was doing all [00:38:35] the time. And my rate.

Payman Langroudi: Was. Is there something about, uh, the disposition [00:38:40] of an implant surgeon is more like an orthopaedic surgeon. Sort of. Get [00:38:45] in there. And the disposition of a surgeon is more like what? Like a vascular [00:38:50] surgeon. Like, what would you say?

Payman Langroudi: I think you know what I’m. I’m going to annoy [00:38:55] lots of my my my implant colleagues and friends because a lot of them are very plastic aware. [00:39:00] Um, but there is I mean, Paul wouldn’t wouldn’t criticise me for [00:39:05] saying it. Paul Swanson is all about the surgery, loves it, loves the the, the [00:39:10] stress that goes with it, the complex, the complexity of the cases and is happy to have [00:39:15] all of the restorative work done by somebody else. And and he’s, he’s in doing bits of plastics, [00:39:20] but other stuff he’ll send to me to do. Um, but [00:39:25] I think there is, there is definitely a cohort of almost orthopaedic style implant guys [00:39:30] with perio plastic skills without any shadow of a doubt.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, still not many women going [00:39:35] into Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I think the a D are doing well on that though. I think they [00:39:40] really are pushing it. You look at a few people over the last few years that we’ve had female ID presidents [00:39:45] and and I think they are very conscious of that and looking to support women [00:39:50] in Implantology. Again, that you ask yourself, why is it a testosterone [00:39:55] thing where it’s very male driven? Is it that because of that all or nothing nature [00:40:00] and family commitments, that it’s not something that people go into? I don’t know, but certainly [00:40:05] in the northwest we’ve got some very, very good. Shahzad Jeffreys, a superb Implantologist [00:40:10] who works in the northwest. She was mentored by Paul in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: I come across much more nowadays, [00:40:15] but still it’s it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a male dominated, male dominated. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Whereas Peri, I don’t think is or.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t think. I think historically dentistry was probably [00:40:25] male dominated, but that those days have been long gone. Yeah. Um and I think perio [00:40:30] probably yeah, we definitely, I can think about the, the cohort that’s just graduated from [00:40:35] King’s, I think in, in fact, I think they were all female. I think I may [00:40:40] be wrong in that, so I apologise if I’ve ostracised somebody. But yeah, the very [00:40:45] female heavy cohort. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to you a bit of [00:40:50] Peru.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: I know we were talking about, but but clinically I stopped practising years [00:40:55] ago, 2012, and I stopped learning about perio after [00:41:00] my house job. So years ago, what’s changed? I mean, the you [00:41:05] said you alluded to the more minimally invasive approach. Um, people [00:41:10] talk about things like laser perio, bony infill that [00:41:15] we used to think that was impossible before. Is it still a little, um, what’s, what’s, [00:41:20] what’s, what’s new other than classifications? Because you guys.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to change [00:41:25] that next.

Payman Langroudi: Week. Like you guys like changing classification.

Payman Langroudi: Because we need something new. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um what’s changed. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, the mouth body connection [00:41:35] thing were you, are you guys fully onto that? Yeah. Because because it’s not taught very well in undergrad. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think we’ve been on that for at least probably 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not really taught very well in undergrad, is [00:41:45] it? In undergrad, you’ve got this patient in front of you who’s got gum disease. You don’t you got to take a medical history. [00:41:50] If there’s diabetes in there, you kind of think, well, maybe that’s affecting. It is affecting [00:41:55] things, but not really making a connection in undergrad. So in [00:42:00] postgrad.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s I think it’s the awareness is significantly better, I think. You know, we’ve got so many [00:42:05] consensus groups where you’ve got organisations like the BSP or the EFP [00:42:10] working with endocrinology and cardiology and producing consensus reports. I think I think [00:42:15] it’s better. And that will filter down much better than it did when you and I were at university, because it wasn’t really [00:42:20] a thing then. It was. And you know, it’s a cheesy sentence, [00:42:25] isn’t it? But for too long, dentistry and the mouth has been outside of medicine, [00:42:30] outside of the body. And it’s mental to think that they’re not connected. Um, [00:42:35] and we’ve, you know, we’ve known since you and I were undergrads about the diabetes link, but we’ve now [00:42:40] got all of the arthritis links the Alzheimer’s, cardiovascular, [00:42:45] kidney disease. Lots of associations and, you know, very [00:42:50] plausible linkages. So I think it’s important. I’ve got to be honest, I don’t [00:42:55] I don’t labour that with patients. I don’t like to scaremonger patients with that because I always just think you’re treating period [00:43:00] to save your teeth. And as an adjunctive benefit is that your systemic health will be better. [00:43:05] But I don’t I try not to sort of go down the floss or die route with my patients. [00:43:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I get it, I get it, but but but the notion that you’ve now suddenly got a period [00:43:15] of period breakdown, is there something going on systemically that [00:43:20] we don’t know about? Yeah. Like like a period referral to a GDP, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Gmp [00:43:25] that’s not happening. And the, the, I think the medical awareness is [00:43:30] bad. I think we as a profession are reasonably good at knowing about this stuff. I [00:43:35] had a, a diabetic specialist nurse referred to me for perio treatment, [00:43:40] and I didn’t know she was a diabetic specialist nurse. And we talked about the major risk factors [00:43:45] smoking, unstable diabetes, stress. Um, and she said diabetes. [00:43:50] What? What do you mean? No way. I was like, you’re. And then so when I told her, she was like, where [00:43:55] have you read that? And I said, I said, why are you asking that?

Payman Langroudi: She said recently, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the last, [00:44:00] uh, the other side of Christmas. And she said, where have you read that? I said, well, [00:44:05] we’ve known about it for 30, 40 years. We’ve got international consensus. [00:44:10] Why? I said, why are you asking that? She said, well, I’m a diabetic nurse. I’ve never heard of it. Wow. [00:44:15] That’s a massive problem.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing. I mean, as a profession, we didn’t get through [00:44:20] to the public that the frequency of sugar. Yeah. It’s [00:44:25] interesting. We never got that through. But everyone knows sugar. Yeah, but no one knows that frequency [00:44:30] of sugar. Yeah. But this bit of information. My goodness me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s frightening.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:44:35] really it really bad. It is. It’s pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, to be fair to people like Ian [00:44:40] Chappell, he’s written articles in editorials in The Lancet to try and make [00:44:45] people aware. We’ve had a few initiatives as part. I’m part of the British society. Um, [00:44:50] we’ve had a few initiatives where we try and push and. But you, [00:44:55] you know, your GP is so busy. Diabetes [00:45:00] is one disease that they have to look for. You can’t expect them to be on top of everything, especially what they [00:45:05] would see as maybe a, a nuanced small area. But we know it’s huge. We know, [00:45:10] you know, we know that if you stabilise perio, it’s the it’s the equivalent of the patient having one [00:45:15] additional drug. Wow. That’s the power of stabilising perio. So when you explain [00:45:20] that to a GP and they think, well, blimey, actually, you know, think about the cost impact on the health service [00:45:25] of that additional drug, not to mention the complexities of polypharmacy of multiple medications [00:45:30] just by switching off their perio inflammation. It’s like them having another [00:45:35] drug, not only, but you’ve also switched off other inflammation elsewhere. Um, we do [00:45:40] need to do a better job of educating other professions. Um, but we’re working on [00:45:45] it a bit slow. And like I say, they have other things that where everyone wants a slice of them and it’s [00:45:50] difficult. It’s difficult for a general dentist to stay on top of all aspects of everything. So the same [00:45:55] goes for our GPS, of course.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else has changed? I mean, you must have had [00:46:00] in your career things come and go. I remember when I was a young dentist putting [00:46:05] putting little antibiotic. What was that called? Periochip.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Periochip. And putting dentomycin. [00:46:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentomycin. Yeah, I used to charge extra for that. It was like a, it was like a money maker for me. [00:46:15] I was like, oh, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Um.

Payman Langroudi: That’s definitely changed.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff [00:46:20] is just stuff. Stuff comes along that claims to solve everything and then not much of it [00:46:25] does. I worry though, yeah, that let’s imagine I come up with a breakthrough. Yeah, [00:46:30] it’d be 30 years before I convinced Periodontists. [00:46:35] Because you guys are so fully like like like think that no, [00:46:40] it’s all the same problem and you’ve been lied to so many times, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s [00:46:45] fair. I think, um, I mean, you ask what’s changed? Yeah. [00:46:50] The you just the example you gave of the local delivery systems [00:46:55] that went with the thinking at the time of how we understood the disease worked so late, late, [00:47:00] early, late 80s, early 90s, all the socransky stuff. Um, and so we were [00:47:05] almost treating it like an infection and the periopathogens. So that’s where all the antibiotics [00:47:10] came from. Um, and then we realised that actually not, that’s not quite specifically [00:47:15] how these things work. And so I think our treatments develop as we in [00:47:20] every medical speciality, as we understand more, we are definitely less chemically [00:47:25] driven than we used to be. Antibiotics, antiseptics.

Payman Langroudi: Is it not a role for systemic antibiotics. [00:47:30] In some situations.

Payman Langroudi: There is without any.

Payman Langroudi: Situation.

Payman Langroudi: Young patients with what you [00:47:35] and I would have called aggressive periodontitis. That is certainly an indication. There are some more [00:47:40] controversial indications. Um some people will advocate using them in [00:47:45] long standing non-responding chronic periodontitis. I’m using [00:47:50] old definitions now, but some people.

Payman Langroudi: Did it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I’m here for you, [00:47:55] Payman. Um, no, but we sort of. That’s quite controversial [00:48:00] whether you use them or not. Uh, I think certainly in general practice, the BSP have been very clear. If you’re thinking [00:48:05] of writing a prescription for a patient, you should really write a referral. They don’t want prescriptions [00:48:10] written for perio in general practice because it’s inappropriate. Those patients really need to be managed [00:48:15] at a specialist level. And a lot of the stuff that gets sent to me where it’s suspected they might [00:48:20] need something else, they just need treatment done, done better, or the patient needs to have their bar [00:48:25] raised a bit or there’s something being missed. So we we really do restrict [00:48:30] and limit them. But my I work in a practice where we’re so busy. I’ve got a couple of dentists [00:48:35] with special interests who work with me. So my we triage the patients. [00:48:40] I tend to see most of the youngsters. I tend to see most of the mucogingival, most [00:48:45] of the failing implant stuff. Um, and because my patient base is skewed towards that younger, [00:48:50] more aggressive style periodontitis, I will write prescriptions fairly frequently for [00:48:55] perio. But my my day list is not normal. Um, [00:49:00] so there’s a role, but yeah, it’s still very, very limited. And most people shouldn’t need them to be able to get on top of [00:49:05] their disease. Um, what has changed? Regenerative stuff [00:49:10] is getting more predictable. So growing bone back in vertical bone defects that we’re [00:49:15] still using a lot of the same materials, but how we use them has changed. Um, you know, your end [00:49:20] gains, your bio-oss and bio guides. I think we’re just, we’re more, more, um. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Refined.

Payman Langroudi: With slicker at using them. We know why things work and when to use which product, when. [00:49:30] Um, I think we’ve talked about plastics that is, that’s [00:49:35] just constantly evolving. And like you said, it’s getting better. You look at the Italians [00:49:40] and probably the Germans who just drive that that world.

Payman Langroudi: Is it driven by cosmetics?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:49:45] plastics very much. That is much less about health.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:49:50] not it’s not like is it predictable that you can reduce sensitivity with plastics or not? Is it not [00:49:55] predictable?

Payman Langroudi: I would hate to sell that as a primary outcome because if I if I do [00:50:00] a root coverage on, let’s say, a tooth that’s got eight millimetres of recession and [00:50:05] I cover seven millimetres of it, that’s a good outcome.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But if that one millimetre [00:50:10] has still got dentine hypersensitivity, I’ve failed. I would, I would never do that. I would never [00:50:15] sell it. And ultimately if your problem is sensitivity. Colgate Pro relief or [00:50:20] you know, some sort of desensitising toothpaste would be my go to. Um. A secondary [00:50:25] benefit of covering up roots is usually that you reduce sensitivity. But I’m always [00:50:30] I do hear people selling it. You’ve got to be so confident you are going to achieve 100%. And [00:50:35] whilst we’d like to think we are, like we’ve already said, soft tissue doesn’t [00:50:40] always do as it’s sold. So, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think and when you’re referred [00:50:45] a patient by someone planning to do a big whatever it is, [00:50:50] whether it’s a restorative plan or an implant plan or whatever, that [00:50:55] people, patients don’t seem to sort of understand that the period [00:51:00] like, you know, people think how much is an implant? Yeah. And, and the nuance [00:51:05] of explaining to that patient, like, you know, the implant that looks like a tooth or an implant doesn’t look like a tooth. Is [00:51:10] that something that’s left to you by the referral? Oh, without a doubt. Is that one of your jobs?

Payman Langroudi: I think without a doubt. [00:51:15] And I think one of the hardest things, I think as a general dentist or hygienist therapist [00:51:20] is getting patients to understand why they need to go see the specialist. You know the common. I get asked all [00:51:25] the time. What do I say when a patient says, what are they going to do that you can’t do? Because they just think we’re [00:51:30] just, you know, going to do more of the same, but charge them more. Yeah. Um, sometimes we [00:51:35] are, sometimes we’re going to do more of the same, but do it better or do it differently or elevate the status of the patient. [00:51:40] But I think most of the time it is. But you’re so right. People will pay. People will [00:51:45] pay £900 for a specialist endo because it gets them out of pain. People [00:51:50] will pay £3,000 for an implant because the tooth is no longer there and they want something fixed, but [00:51:55] they’ve got a disease that isn’t painful and they don’t perceive there to be a problem. And why should [00:52:00] they pay a few thousand pounds to stabilise my perio? And there is the education phase [00:52:05] of that is huge. Um, I remember listening to again, Philip Green, [00:52:10] I’ve mentioned him already when he was BSP president quite a long time ago now. He [00:52:15] was asked the question, what would you do to make Peri make people take Perrier [00:52:20] more seriously. And his answer was, I’d make it painful. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:52:25] a good point.

Payman Langroudi: If if if you know because because it’s inflammation. If Perry was painful, your [00:52:30] patients would be there knocking on the door going, get this sorted. The fact that it’s this silent disease, [00:52:35] they don’t know it’s happening until it’s too late. Um, is a problem. Um, and then, you [00:52:40] know, we’re having to educate them as to why they’ve got to do all this behaviour change, why they’ve got to change their lifestyle, [00:52:45] why we’ve got to do all these treatments. It is, uh, a sales pitch it, [00:52:50] but selling health ultimately. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:52:55] think that the difference between what would you say good periodontist, [00:53:00] great periodontist. What’s the difference?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I think [00:53:05] there’s probably two definitions. There’s there’s great hands and some people are just gifted. [00:53:10] Um, again I’ve mentioned Rob, although he’s not periodontist I would, [00:53:15] he’s got the skills of, of any of the best presidents in the, in the country, if not the world. Um. [00:53:20] I think communication, being able to, you know, [00:53:25] you know, yourself and one of our, one of the challenges of our job is, [00:53:30] is the management of the individual, the dentistry relatively simple, even the complex [00:53:35] stuff when you, when you’re doing it all the time, it’s relatively simple. It’s managing the patient who’s attached to that dentistry. [00:53:40] Um, and so I think communication is just everything because we’re [00:53:45] often sent patients who are quite late presenting and we’re often having to give [00:53:50] difficult news and then talk to them about difficult conversations about where they go next. And so [00:53:55] I would say, and I said it before, you’ve got to like people and you’ve got to be good with [00:54:00] people, and you’ve got to be able to work with all of those personality types. And I [00:54:05] think empathy, empathy, and dentistry full stop, is.

Payman Langroudi: Humanity of that moment, right? When you’re telling someone [00:54:10] he’s got to lose lots of teeth. Yeah, it’s an important point. It’s a funny man with [00:54:15] the enlightened. We talk about or ask people whether they want teeth whitening. [00:54:20] Yeah. And then a lot of them worry about that, right? They don’t want to embarrass their patient. They don’t want to [00:54:25] annoy them. And I tell them, look, do you know how embarrassing it is to be told [00:54:30] you’re not brushing your teeth properly? Yeah. Like by someone younger than you? Yeah. You know, if I, if I [00:54:35] was a I am a 50 year old guy and some 28 year old hygienist says you’re [00:54:40] not brushing your teeth properly. It’s massively embarrassing. Yeah. Massively embarrassing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also a [00:54:45] barrier to behaviour change. What comes next?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That patient thinks that you think that they’re dirty. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s it’s such a we’re so in it that we don’t [00:54:55] see that. Right. But it’s a really important nuance.

Payman Langroudi: We talk about that a lot in our [00:55:00] courses. Yeah, we really do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a there’s a really good video [00:55:05] that was put out by the, um, European Federation of Periodontology a few years ago called The Sand [00:55:10] of Periodontitis. And they interviewed three patients. And in the first scene they [00:55:15] talk to a lady called Angela. Um, and they ask her how she felt about her diagnosis and she talked [00:55:20] about, um, she felt ashamed. She felt that she couldn’t talk about it to her friends. [00:55:25] She talks about, um, she could talk about her cancer diagnosis to her friends, but not her diagnosis [00:55:30] because she was embarrassed because it was her fault, because she was dirty. And I, we [00:55:35] play that on every single course that I run to remind people, because we do get into a conveyor [00:55:40] belt of another patient, another disease, another patient, just it’s it’s all day, every day. [00:55:45] Just we’re used to just dealing with this stuff and we process people in and out. And I say to [00:55:50] my delegates, when you diagnose perio, patients are going to have a. Some patients are going [00:55:55] to have a bit of a moment. They’re going to think that you think they’re dirty, they’re going to have a shameful, God, this [00:56:00] is all my fault. And you have to remember that human side of this disease. It’s a [00:56:05] bit different to you’ve got a hole that needs filling. Perio has a bit of stigma attached to it. [00:56:10] And while sometimes that stigma is appropriate because a lot of the time there is lifestyle and [00:56:15] behaviour. There’s also all the other stuff that goes with it, you know, genetics and stress [00:56:20] and, you know, medical conditions. It’s not as simple as you’ve not cleaned your teeth properly. And we have to just, [00:56:25] we have to work with patients to make them understand that and downregulate that shame. It’s really important. [00:56:30] I mean, really important.

Payman Langroudi: One thing that comes to mind is you must be at [00:56:35] the stage you’re at, you must be in touch with the manufacturers, right? The toothpaste [00:56:40] manufacturers, the toothbrush manufacturers, some of the biggest companies in the world. Yeah. [00:56:45] I mean, you know, we think of our biggest companies in dentistry might be align [00:56:50] and Henry Schein, but Colgate and GSK.

Payman Langroudi: And. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oral-b, they are ten times the size of of those companies. [00:57:00] So those massive budgets and on our screens all the time, there must be an element [00:57:05] of education that needs to happen from them. And it’s a weird thing. Yeah. Because [00:57:10] you know, the guy selling this microphone isn’t. We’re not asking him to educate anyone. Yeah. You know, you might do [00:57:15] if you’re into it, you might say, oh, conversations are important or whatever, but are you I [00:57:20] mean, you’re in touch with these guys, right? You must be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you personally, I work with some [00:57:25] of them in terms of lectures, lecture opportunities. Um, and I think through, through some [00:57:30] of the work I do with the BSP, we work with some of these organisations. Um, I [00:57:35] think, I think we’d like to think that they could do [00:57:40] a bit more. I think some of the companies, what you don’t always see behind the scenes, um, certainly [00:57:45] people like GSK, Haleon. Um. Johnson [00:57:50] and Johnson, they, they support the BSP with sort of like non restricted [00:57:55] grants. So they don’t, they don’t get anything back, but they support the work that we do and the promotion. So that [00:58:00] is a good thing. But they’re relying on us to do the physical promotion there. I think I would love to see [00:58:05] some of these companies do more publicly because you’re [00:58:10] right. You know, the the BSP or Ian Dunn is never going to put an advert in between Coronation [00:58:15] Street and the adverts because it’s just too big a campaign.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, from their perspective, I say, well, [00:58:20] you know, we’re paying millions for those ads, so screw you.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a missed opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:58:25] friend was playing golf with the CEO of Colgate okay, in the US. And [00:58:30] um, you know what he said? He said um Colgate is in more households [00:58:35] than any other product in the world.

Payman Langroudi: I can believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So something like 65% [00:58:40] of all global households have Colgate Palmolive product [00:58:45] in them. And the way he, he was talking to him was, well, you know, like [00:58:50] almost like in a conservative way, they’ve won. So they just want to keep everything the same. Yeah, [00:58:55] yeah, I get that, I get that. But but, you know, if you’ve got access to 65% [00:59:00] of households in the world.

Payman Langroudi: You’d like to think there. [00:59:05]

Payman Langroudi: Should be a.

Payman Langroudi: Big corporate responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: That’s sort of what you’re asking me. Yeah. And [00:59:10] I would like to think that that there was a bit more of that. I think at the end of the day, a [00:59:15] lot of the especially I mean, you’ve mentioned sort of the toothpaste mouthwashes. That’s almost farmer type [00:59:20] stuff. Yeah. And they are in sales. And we have to remember that, don’t we? Yeah. But I do think [00:59:25] I do think they could do more. Um, there’s no two ways about it. I’d love to see them take [00:59:30] a slightly more bigger picture view because I don’t think they’d sell any less product.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:59:35] And the other thing is, I used to think when I used to think about this when I was younger, I used [00:59:40] to think, well, the end of the day it’s just teeth. But then when even today, [00:59:45] today, right now, the biggest cause of GA in children is teeth. It’s [00:59:50] amazing. 2026. That’s the case.

Payman Langroudi: Alder hey and Liverpool spend £1 [00:59:55] million a year on paediatric GA extractions. £1 million [01:00:00] a year.

Payman Langroudi: I thought it’d be more than that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s devastating. That’s probably an eight year old figure.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, it’s probably [01:00:05] more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And they probably could do it. They probably just can’t get through anymore. Um. It’s huge. [01:00:10] And that’s just one city. You know, that’s going to be that’s going to you multiply that by, you know, your [01:00:15] Manchester’s your Birmingham’s. They’ve all got bigger populations.

Payman Langroudi: In a preventable disease. That’s that’s the key point. Right. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: Key point.

Payman Langroudi: Um what grinds your gears about [01:00:25] dentistry. The market. Let’s let’s let’s start [01:00:30] let’s start before you worry yourself about. No, no. Let’s start with with relation to [01:00:35] in relation to perio. Like what do most generalists not know about perio that they really [01:00:40] should.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t say it’s that they’re not know I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Well not acting [01:00:45] whatever.

Payman Langroudi: What people don’t remember is actually the power [01:00:50] that the patient has to control the disease. I think we’re so ingrained as [01:00:55] a profession that our only value is perceived when we’re physically doing something to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Treatment. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: I’m either diagnosing or I’m scaling, or I’m drilling or I’m extracting. And when you’re doing [01:01:05] something, that’s my value and I can charge you for that. And I think we forget and [01:01:10] the the S3 period guidelines that came out a few years ago have changed the way we’re [01:01:15] trying to get people to think about this, telling the patient, do more, but physically, properly [01:01:20] sitting with them and educating them on oral hygiene and not just paying lip [01:01:25] service that can produce similar clinical outcomes to you or I do in a clinical [01:01:30] intervention. And if patients, if you’re working in an environment where patients can’t afford expensive care, [01:01:35] educating them to help themselves is the bit that we fail on. We really [01:01:40] do fail on that. Um, I also see with some dentists, [01:01:45] some of my referrers, they don’t always believe in perio that it [01:01:50] actually works. Now, if you believe that, then you’re right, it won’t work. But [01:01:55] I’ve had I had a referral from me a couple of weeks ago, and it was a strange phone call because [01:02:00] he said, I just needed to ring you to see What was it you did that achieved such an amazing result? And [01:02:05] I couldn’t remember the patient. So I had to go open the computer up and have a look and and all [01:02:10] we’d done was we’d actually treated the case from start to finish. Non-surgically. But the case [01:02:15] was a disaster when he walked in.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, is that you physically.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:02:20] depends on the patient. So we I have some great hygienists that I work with. So I, [01:02:25] we do a lot of, um, we give a lot of that to the hygiene team. There [01:02:30] are certain patients when I’m treating youngsters with aggressive disease and I’m prescribing antibiotics, [01:02:35] I will often do that myself. Um we have some patients who will say, you know, I’ve seen a hygienist [01:02:40] before in other practice, I want to see you. Um, and I explain that it will be more cost [01:02:45] effective and equally just as good if they see one of our hygiene team and some people say, no, no, I’m here [01:02:50] now. You’re the guy who I’m putting my trust in. And so they, they pay for me to do that work. And I [01:02:55] don’t I don’t dislike that work. It was interesting. I listen to Payman and she said [01:03:00] she couldn’t wait to get rid of that and just wants to do surgery. But but I also think that also comes with that stage [01:03:05] of career where, you know, I’ve trained to be special. So I want to do special stuff all the time. [01:03:10] I really don’t mind doing the scope of practice that is required for the patient that’s in front of [01:03:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: But the value add of you doing it with the hygienist. Do you think it’s anatomy? [01:03:20] Like literally that’s what it is. You’re literally kind of more aware of [01:03:25] what needs.

Payman Langroudi: I think in terms of non surgical outcomes, the. [01:03:30] There’s two hygienists in our team that do a lot of my work for me because I work [01:03:35] in a mixed practice. As in I say mixed. It’s all private, but it’s general and specialist. So um, [01:03:40] we have quite a big team, 17 surgeries. It’s a beast of a practice. Beast of a. [01:03:45]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that called?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Rose Lane dental practice. Uh where’s.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Liverpool. Liverpool. South. [01:03:50] Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: South towards down the airport end. Yeah. Um. Now I know [01:03:55] that if Helen or Yvonne do a case for me that they’ll get the same outcomes [01:04:00] because they think like I do. They treat the same same treatment philosophy. They will. So they’ll get [01:04:05] great outcomes as well. Um, some patients just yeah, the added value [01:04:10] of I’m a bit greyer, I’m a bit older. I’ve got that badge that says I’m a specialist. [01:04:15] I’m charging a bit more for that. Does add value to some patients. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:20] yeah, I don’t mind doing those bits myself, but I think going back to the question you were saying, [01:04:25] we seem to have this thing where our only value is when we physically do something. And [01:04:30] actually in perio and also, I mean, if you boil it down to everything, the prevention [01:04:35] in all dentistry comes down to communication, but we’re not getting paid to do it. So we don’t do it. Um, [01:04:40] that grinds my gears, I suppose a bit because that was the, you know, I [01:04:45] think we could, we could achieve so much more for so less input if [01:04:50] we really did have a true preventative model. Um, it’s one of the [01:04:55] things in dentistry that grind grammar.

Payman Langroudi: School and tell me a few others. You alluded to the social media [01:05:00] thing.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mind social media. We’ve got to accept it’s it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, a [01:05:05] modern beast. It’s how people communicate. I’ve got grown up. I’ve got my, my youngest daughter’s [01:05:10] 19 at the weekend, my eldest, 23. So they’re, they’re in that world. And that’s how they live their lives. So [01:05:15] I understand how we have to operate in there. Um, and I think [01:05:20] social media has been brilliant from a resource point of view for us being connected. Yeah. Uh, [01:05:25] I also think that drives, um, anxiety amongst the profession. They [01:05:30] sort of the, the comparison envy that people think, oh, I’m not, I’m not successful because I’m not, [01:05:35] you know, not that person. I’ve not done that. So I think that, that annoys me because I don’t think a lot of that is real. [01:05:40] Um, I think some of the stuff that I see on social media, you [01:05:45] know, if my principal said to me, look, we’re going to do a TikTok video or we’re going to do some [01:05:50] crazy dancing reception, I’m gone. I’m out of that practice. I’m leaving because [01:05:55] that’s just not for me. Um, and that I just think sometimes is a bit demeaning, but equally, I understand [01:06:00] that that’s the market that some people are appealing to, and that’s not going to be so that what I said [01:06:05] that grinds my gears. Probably not. I just scroll past it and let it wash over me. Um, I [01:06:10] would, you know, I genuinely would love to see CPD better [01:06:15] regulated than it is. Um, I feel like when we qualified, [01:06:20] you would look around the country and you, you knew who the good guys were, you knew who. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: Now there’s so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s just volume. And I’m not convinced [01:06:30] that all of that volume is as good as it could be. Um, you know, I really enjoyed listening to Nick Sethi’s [01:06:35] podcast the other week and what the work that they do. I know Nick through tubules, great [01:06:40] guy, uh, good mates with Riaz. We worked at Liverpool in the hospital together. You know, there [01:06:45] are people who are doing great stuff. I’m down here teaching with monarch for tomorrow, people who are [01:06:50] doing high level really well. Cpd type stuff, but then [01:06:55] I just see some people who just churning out quick fix short but but [01:07:00] dressed up diplomas and I sort of wonder just how much can you learn [01:07:05] in that short space of time? I’ve got no problem with short courses, but don’t dress it up as [01:07:10] anything more than a short course. It’s, you know, a five day course is not a diploma. Um, [01:07:15] and I think the.

Payman Langroudi: Diploma kind of is whatever you want to call it, right. It’s a funny thing. [01:07:20] I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Nowadays. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think there was a time though, you know, when a certificate was [01:07:25] a year course, a diploma was a two year course. Masters was a third year course.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Payman Langroudi: And I think so. [01:07:30] It means very different things to different generations. Um and I do [01:07:35] worry that.

Payman Langroudi: But what else? What else should go on. I’ll tell you some of mine. [01:07:40] Um, I don’t like, uh, people who call themselves [01:07:45] professor when, when they’re not, when they’re not professor. I don’t like that. Um, [01:07:50] Because it’s a funny thing. It’s a it’s a foreign university thing. Often, [01:07:55] I think like if you’re, if you’re teaching a university in France, Italy, Spain, or [01:08:00] many places, America, all teachers in university are called. Professor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:08:05] But here it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Associate professor.

Payman Langroudi: The top guy in the department. So [01:08:10] to use it here just seems so, so disingenuous. Yeah. I think that’s that’s not, not [01:08:15] unreasonable.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about awards? I bet you don’t like awards. Do you like awards? [01:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: No, I really don’t like awards.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on, go on. Articulate what you don’t like. Because the younger [01:08:25] generation can’t even understand it. And I have to. I have to get them to to tell me what they think [01:08:30] it is. What is it for you? The crux of awards that you don’t like?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:35] I don’t like the idea that, you know, there can be 7 or 8 best young dentists [01:08:40] this and 12 best old dentists that. And because even [01:08:45] though I’m good at what I do, I’m, I am I the best? How do you measure that [01:08:50] best? And does that best give you an advantage? When do you deserve that advantage? [01:08:55] I just I find that sort of I find it all a little bit crass, not professional.

Payman Langroudi: Right back to [01:09:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: Professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: That also goes back to me being old. If I’m being, you know, and [01:09:05] just probably, you know, grey old grumpy, um, it’s [01:09:10] just not what we did. And I just find it all.

Payman Langroudi: At the, at [01:09:15] the same time. Do you recognise what I’m saying about like Ken? Ken Finley is a good, good [01:09:20] friend of mine and I remember when they started, it was them, it was, it was FMC that [01:09:25] really pushed all of this awards, uh, top 50 at the time [01:09:30] you had the BJ that wasn’t you weren’t allowed to put a photograph or do you [01:09:35] remember you couldn’t even put any image in a BJ article? Maybe a graph. [01:09:40] Yeah, but nothing else. That’s where we were at. And Ken comes along and [01:09:45] says, well, let me do the sun And it was a good thing, you know, like it opened [01:09:50] up.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise, could we? When we first.

Payman Langroudi: Arrived.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise. And then that changed. And that was [01:09:55] the beginning of this opening up of, you know, the marketing and everything that we’ve now got. Um, [01:10:00] I’ve got to be honest, I don’t, I don’t, I would never think less [01:10:05] of somebody who does the awards. And I know people who are part of that industry. And [01:10:10] if you’re going to enter the awards, you are practising to a very high standard because [01:10:15] you have to to be.

Payman Langroudi: Approved to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve photographed your work, you’ve shown good [01:10:20] thinking. So, you know, there was elements of that. I think my validation [01:10:25] would come from other places. So you just listen to Nick talk and you [01:10:30] talk about Bard, you know, and you’ve got like Bard accreditation. And you know, if you, [01:10:35] if you’re accredited by Bard, you know, your stuff, you are the bee’s [01:10:40] knees, you know, and even the best people who are going through that process will be stood there [01:10:45] nervous at the front. You know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Finley Sutton or whether you’re you know, you’re going to be [01:10:50] grilled.

Payman Langroudi: By everyone on it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going to be. And and you’ll know your stuff and you’re [01:10:55] going, I’m going to get through this. But that to me is sort of. That’s the sort of validation [01:11:00] I would seek or I want someone to say to, you know, that, you know, someone I respect, like, [01:11:05] I don’t know, like an academic like Ian Chappell or somebody go, yeah, that Ian Dunn’s a good guy. That’s sort [01:11:10] of what I that that to me would be better than any piece of plastic that is voted, you know, that I’ve entered and [01:11:15] been, you know, um, do I think less of people for doing that? No, not at all. I [01:11:20] think if you abuse that and, you know, and actually start to believe that you are [01:11:25] better, that’s probably a bit of an issue.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, people use it in their marketing, don’t they? So do you find [01:11:30] that distasteful?

Payman Langroudi: Not necessarily distasteful. I think if you’ve done it, it’s like I say, it [01:11:35] shows a commitment to, to, to a high standard because [01:11:40] I’ve yet to see any of those winning cases where I thought, God, that’s rubbish that you are. [01:11:45] You are working at a high level if you’ve won those awards.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess the funny thing, I’m no longer in [01:11:50] it, right? So it doesn’t bother me at all. But I can imagine if [01:11:55] I was working in Liverpool and some dude won [01:12:00] Best Dentist Liverpool. Yeah. And if I was really good at dentistry, by the way, if I was really good at dentistry [01:12:05] and some dude wins best dentist Liverpool and I’ve not even applied, [01:12:10] I can imagine how that might grind my gears. Yeah, I can see it. I can see it. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: I work with, um, I work with a specialist prosthodontist guy called Steve Barber, one [01:12:20] of the best dentists I’ve ever worked with. I mean, his work is just second to none. You’ve never [01:12:25] heard of him because he’s so under the radar. Um, and I see people [01:12:30] winning awards locally and, and yeah, that works okay. It’s good. It’s not as good as Steve’s. It’s [01:12:35] just, you know. And do I feel sorry for him? No, because he’s busy. People who [01:12:40] refer to him know he’s great. There was a time. There was definitely a time. [01:12:45] And you’ll have seen me on social media do it where I was like I was. I felt like the police. I wanted to [01:12:50] argue with everyone. And you’re wrong.

Payman Langroudi: The Facebook.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, social media platforms. [01:12:55] And, you know, and I’m at the point now where I sort of think I can only treat who’s in front [01:13:00] of me. I can only teach who turns up to my courses and I can’t control anything [01:13:05] else. And so why should I bother? And maybe I’m maturing. Maybe I’m getting [01:13:10] more laid back. But you know, I chat to people like you. He’s a good friend of yours, Drew Shah. [01:13:15] I know Drew’s not a fan of that sort of that sort of. Oh, he hates it with [01:13:20] a passion. I think him and I are equally paralleled in grumpiness when it comes to [01:13:25] comes to those things. So um, but yeah, we see we. It [01:13:30] goes back to that comparison envy and the comparison. That same [01:13:35] comparison is a thief of joy. One of my favourite expressions. And I see people who I [01:13:40] mentioned before, people who come and spend days with me and they’re saying to me, you know, I’m [01:13:45] looking after my patients and I care, and I spend too much time on this, and I’m not earning very much money that and [01:13:50] I’m not winning awards and I’m not driving a Ferrari and I’m and I’m saying, yeah, but you’ve just [01:13:55] told me that you’re looking after your patients and you’re doing good work and you’re only three years qualified, relaxed, [01:14:00] just relax. You’re doing all the right things. All that will come if you keep [01:14:05] doing the right thing. I suppose that side of the awards and that I’m [01:14:10] not there and I’m, I’m not successful until I’m that I think people [01:14:15] need to look at how they measure success because success could be you could be going work in community [01:14:20] dentistry on a salary. And you could be treating all that special care type patient group [01:14:25] that that success, if that’s what you love and you’re doing a great service, don’t [01:14:30] measure success in bank balances or cars or, you know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Success [01:14:35] could be working two days a week and taking the kids to school the other three days, you know, like. [01:14:40]

Payman Langroudi: Spending.

Payman Langroudi: Your life, that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re walking the hills in the Lake District and, you know, having to schlep into work and [01:14:45] do those two days so you can have the five days off. You’ve got to measure, you’ve got to decide what success looks like [01:14:50] for you and not measure it by other people’s yardsticks. It’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:14:55] that said, you’re one of the more kind of famous guys [01:15:00] about between between generalists. [01:15:05] Right?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: General dentists up north, who can we think of? Who are the guys? [01:15:10] You. I mean, maybe it’s because of teaching. Yeah. Yeah, it probably is because of.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching probably.

Payman Langroudi: Is. Um, and [01:15:15] if you’re going to be a teacher, you’re going to have to tell your story and people need to come and come and come on your course [01:15:20] and all of that. Yeah. Um, do you find that your, it doesn’t come naturally to you [01:15:25] sort of self promotion and whatever it takes to fill these courses, what does it take to fill these [01:15:30] courses? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s got really difficult. The last few years has become increasingly difficult. [01:15:35] Yeah. I think as as undergraduates, I was chatting to a couple of foundation the other [01:15:40] day and they were saying how many of their lectures were delivered via video, pre-recorded on [01:15:45] demand. So they’re not even understanding the value of face to face teaching at their undergraduate [01:15:50] level. So trying to get them to come on courses and part with money is, is increasingly [01:15:55] difficult. Um, I do find self promotion difficult. I, [01:16:00] my, my former self promotion is just being out there and being available to people. I, [01:16:05] I’ve been on the train coming down here today. I’ve answered five Facebook private messages from people [01:16:10] who don’t know me and I’ve never met them before, not even been on my courses. Hi. Can I ask you a [01:16:15] question? And my answer is always yes. I’ll answer that question when I get a minute. I’ll answer it. And [01:16:20] I always put myself out there on social media platforms as someone who’s knowledgeable and approachable. That’s [01:16:25] my promotion. But I’m not going to stand there going, I’m the biggest. I’m the best, maybe to my detriment. [01:16:30] Um.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I really like about your content or Intensol was um, [01:16:35] the way you the, the way you talk about hygienists [01:16:40] and therapists as a, as equals. Um, and [01:16:45] that’s, I think it’s such an important thing. Yeah. Because, you know, Perry is a team sport. [01:16:50] Yeah. And dentistry’s a team sport.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And too many practices [01:16:55] have too much hierarchy going through them.

Payman Langroudi: The profession has too much hierarchy going through it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:00] But practices.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. You know, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about practice is, you know, there’s a king of that castle and [01:17:05] then too many the stories you hear from hygienists. Yeah. Because [01:17:10] they’re only like one day here, one day there, they’re not treated as staff members. And I [01:17:15] just remember your the way you write about hygienists and therapists. Yeah. [01:17:20] It’s with a sort of respect that you don’t often see.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:25] there’s multiple streams to that though, because, well, I want to believe it, you [01:17:30] know, and there are good dentists and bad dentist. There are good hygienists and bad hygienists and therapists [01:17:35] and you. So and I’ve been lucky enough to work with some great hygienists, um, who’ve [01:17:40] made me look very good. Um, let’s be honest. You they’ve made me [01:17:45] look very, very good. Um, so some patients will come in, see me for a consult, go to one [01:17:50] of the hygiene team, come back to me and I discharge them because they’re fixed and I get [01:17:55] all the glory and they’ve done all the hard work. So it would [01:18:00] be disingenuous of me not to acknowledge that and also not to stand up for that. [01:18:05] Um, you have to look at, you know, most let’s, let’s [01:18:10] just say the, I don’t know whether what’s true about this, but let’s say the average size of practices for [01:18:15] surgeries, let’s say there’ll be three dentist surgeries and one hygienist surgery. And then if [01:18:20] you go to the staff room, the dentist won’t be in there half the time. And the dentists are all together having their butties, [01:18:25] and then the nurses will all be in the staff room and the hygienist is in this no man’s.

Payman Langroudi: Land isolated role. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Really isolated and that’s where their organisations are really helpful. The best. And [01:18:35] BADT to to give them that that outlet. Um but I think, [01:18:40] you know, with I don’t know whether, you know, I, I’m admin, one of the biggest hygienists and [01:18:45] therapist forums on Facebook for the UK. Um, and it’s just [01:18:50] a release valve for them to know.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m reading the stories.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not that their [01:18:55] experiences are not unique and it’s a bit like dentists for dentists for us, you know, that it’s [01:19:00] somewhere where you can go and speak and know that there’s going to be support, know that you’re not alone. And [01:19:05] so for me, you know, I’ve been very lucky now to get myself into a position where, [01:19:10] as you say, people know who I am. And through my work with the BSP and the [01:19:15] teaching and all the different things, I sort of owe it to them to support them because [01:19:20] that, yeah, there are a lot of Periodontists one, two [01:19:25] dentists don’t want to do perio per se. So three give it to the people who do want [01:19:30] to do it and are pretty good at it. And don’t don’t treat them as a second class citizen. [01:19:35] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the way it’s looking. Therapists are going to be a major part of the future. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Huge. I listened to Amber Alpin’s podcast. Amazing, [01:19:45] brilliant. What a great setup.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s loads of them in the northwest. We’ve got a handful [01:19:50] of hygiene and therapy owned and LED practices. And why [01:19:55] not? They’re making a great go of it. They’re doing great work. There’s a lady on the [01:20:00] Wirral, Jules Fisher, who runs at the Hygienist Only Centre and is [01:20:05] one of my best referrers. You know, she she takes patients as far as they can and then she knows when to [01:20:10] pass them on. And it’s a great model and the patients get great care. Yeah. Um, we [01:20:15] just, we’ve got to get rid of this protectionism element because there’s, we’re not going to run [01:20:20] out of work.

Payman Langroudi: One of the biggest uses is owned by a nurse ex nurse. [01:20:25] Okay. Um I want to get on to Liverpool because it’s such an [01:20:30] interesting town. Um, again, enlightened biggest users have always [01:20:35] come from Liverpool. From the beginning.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say Liverpool or Kent, I would have thought would be your two big. [01:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well no. Essex. You’re thinking. Sorry but no, it’s more Liverpool or Newcastle, more North northwest [01:20:45] or northeast. Newcastle. Sunderland?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The people up there just want white teeth, man. Yeah [01:20:50] yeah yeah. Um but Liverpool as a town, I’ve been going there for years now [01:20:55] and what a change. Yeah. The people are amazing. [01:21:00] Everyone’s a comedian and, and funny and [01:21:05] just, just, just like real salt of the earth. I always think of Liverpool Manchester [01:21:10] as like complete opposites in so much as in Manchester. Everyone looks quite polished. Okay, but you’re not [01:21:15] sure what to think about it. But in Liverpool they’re quite raw. But everyone’s cool. Everyone’s [01:21:20] everyone’s just like, uh, worth talking to. Um, but the change in [01:21:25] that town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s huge. But you know what? That really makes me feel quite proud that [01:21:30] you’ve just said that. I hear it all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Love that.

Payman Langroudi: City. And there is such a stereotype about [01:21:35] Liverpool that that once people have been, they realise that it’s not what it was, I think. You know, you [01:21:40] mentioned when my dad and the police and Toxteth riots, there is such a stigma and Harry Enfield and the [01:21:45] Scousers and all that, you know, shell suits and trackies and calmed down and all that stuff. There is that stereotype. [01:21:50] Um, Liverpool has had its difficult times. You know, the 80s, [01:21:55] even into the early noughties when I went when I left Liverpool to go to university, Liverpool had [01:22:00] big problems. Um 2008 we got all that capital of culture money [01:22:05] and it absolutely transformed the city. I mean, I was back [01:22:10] living there at the time. I was living in the docks, um, in sort of warehouse living type [01:22:15] stuff. And it was just a great time. But that, that the city transformed and it is [01:22:20] an absolutely fantastic city to live in. And like every city, it’s got issues and [01:22:25] it’s got idiots. But the majority are, like you said, up for a laugh.

Payman Langroudi: The people [01:22:30] are so unique.

Payman Langroudi: Man cannot wait to chat to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I ran a course last week. Uh, [01:22:35] we had 16 hygienists therapists come over for a two day course. Um, [01:22:40] from all over the country and the WhatsApp group the night before, because they were all coming in on the Wednesday night. We were teaching [01:22:45] Thursday and Friday was, oh my God, Liverpool is so friendly. I’ve had so many random conversations. [01:22:50] And my teaching colleague Helen Maria teaching us, we were just texting each other going [01:22:55] makes me feel quite proud about that. It’s good. Yeah, I am born and bred in Liverpool. I’ve [01:23:00] escaped for a bit and moved back and uh, it’s it’s a great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: Great restaurants, [01:23:05] great shopping that Liverpool won the Duke of Westminster project. Yeah, yeah. Liverpool [01:23:10] won like I find really good places there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good culture. We’ve got multiple theatres, [01:23:15] comedy scene, live music.

Payman Langroudi: What I love is that kind of city that’s [01:23:20] big enough that you can go and find yourself a Wagyu steak if you really want one, but small enough [01:23:25] that everyone kind of knows each other kind of bumping into each other. And then with Liverpool [01:23:30] as well, like, you know, it was at one point it was one of the richest cities in Britain, the richest city in Britain. [01:23:35] At one point when the slave trade. Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, it was [01:23:40] built on that.

Payman Langroudi: But those, those massive buildings, not not just the warehouse, the [01:23:45] massive bank like buildings, you know, they’re really special. You don’t get [01:23:50] that in many places.

Payman Langroudi: But we’ve got more royal liver.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Craziness.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more grade [01:23:55] two listed buildings than any other city outside of London.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Because it was bombed in [01:24:00] the war.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Too far.

Payman Langroudi: So I think it wasn’t deemed to be strategically important. So the architecture [01:24:05] is phenomenal. And if you if you walk around with your head up and look around. Yeah. [01:24:10] You’re right. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s architecturally beautiful in [01:24:15] parts. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the pod.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:24:20] mistakes. Clinical errors that you’ve made that the rest [01:24:25] of us can learn from.

Payman Langroudi: Um. I [01:24:30] can think, well, maybe whether other people can learn from it, I don’t know. But [01:24:35] arrogant sort of the arrogance of youth. You know, I was, I was doing [01:24:40] my perio surgery stuff and I was generally pretty good at it. And I had a patient [01:24:45] who was referred, I mean, just this, just the horror. It’s more of a is it a mistake? It was a bad [01:24:50] clinical outcome. She came to me with an an upper right central incisor that was root filled [01:24:55] and dark with a little bit of recession on it. And I was asked to cover the root up and also thicken [01:25:00] the tissue so the dark root didn’t show through. Done it a few times, multiple times before at this [01:25:05] point. Um, yeah. No problem. Uh, but the tooth was root filled. It was a protected there was [01:25:10] scar tissue. The surgery was a complete nightmare. I got really good coverage that it [01:25:15] seemed to go okay, but it was difficult. Um, she got really bad healing. She got, [01:25:20] she went from having two meals, a recession to six mils of recession. I’d caused it. My, [01:25:25] my, my healing response was horrendous. Um, she’d gone through two [01:25:30] and a half years of ortho, by the way, to get to that point. And I was the, I was the penultimate bit [01:25:35] before they replaced the crown on this tooth. Um, that was pretty bad. Uh, [01:25:40] what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: I just had to, I, I had to own it and I just had to, I redid [01:25:45] it. Um, I can’t say I did anything massively differently and we got a really good outcome the second [01:25:50] time. Um, but it was you then working with the patients who is [01:25:55] doubting you and yeah, there’s a trust issue now. And actually she’s gone from a two mil [01:26:00] recession to a six mil recession on a tooth that is dark. Um, it was a difficult, [01:26:05] difficult period.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the learning outcome from that?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:26:10] what was.

Payman Langroudi: There was an error. What was the era? Was it a communication error? I mean, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: You did ask [01:26:15] me about it. Could I say there was an error? Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You said. You said you wouldn’t have done it any differently.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think I would have [01:26:20] done it any differently. So maybe it wasn’t. Or maybe it was just like we said that sometimes you just don’t get the healing you want. Not [01:26:25] all soft tissue.

Payman Langroudi: Is consent error.

Payman Langroudi: I think thankfully we consent for all sorts [01:26:30] of problems.

Payman Langroudi: Did you tell them that that could have happened? Yeah, possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Graphs can fail. Things can heal [01:26:35] unfavourably. So yeah, I think we always have thorough conversations. So whether that was a dark [01:26:40] time, it was a stressful time because of the I mean, the other thing I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: The patient [01:26:45] didn’t do anything right.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t know patient trusted me. We we’re she [01:26:50] has to wait 3 to 4 months for that site to mature before we can go back in. Walking [01:26:55] around with a front tooth that’s like now got more recession. She was, with [01:27:00] hindsight, incredibly tolerant. Um, and the one thing I would always [01:27:05] say to people, if you’ve got a problem, just own it, be all over it and, you know, smother the patient in [01:27:10] kindness and, um, don’t try and quick fix, don’t try and distance yourself. Don’t you know? [01:27:15] Um, I think the only time to say distance. The only time if you if you can’t [01:27:20] fix it, if you’re not the guy, make sure that they end up in front of the guy or the girl who can [01:27:25] fix it. You know, do whatever it takes to make this right for that patient. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:27:30] give money back straight away, man. I mean, even don’t even ponder on it, although not as easy [01:27:35] as you think. Sometimes you work for a corporate, it has to go up the up the ladder and back down. Um, [01:27:40] what’s, what’s been what, what comes to mind if I ask you what’s been your darkest day [01:27:45] professionally?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the day I got my GDC letter. [01:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: From a patient.

Payman Langroudi: From a. Yeah. So, um, long story [01:27:55] short, I was, I was still a GDP, but only just at this point, I was very [01:28:00] much perio trained and MSC nearly finished. And um.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:28:05] it during that peak, GDC 2015, 2016 time?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, probably.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [01:28:10] dentist was.

Payman Langroudi: A little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Earlier. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Probably about probably about 2008. Oh, can’t quite remember. [01:28:15] But it was it was peak. It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Peak time of a type of severe distrust [01:28:20] with the profession. Yeah. Um, and I had a guy who knew patient consult, I treated his [01:28:25] family, uh, and he came in with a lesion lower right on his soft tissue on his gingiva [01:28:30] in his attached gingiva. Didn’t look great, but he said to me, oh, I’ve had this before. [01:28:35] And I said, what was it? And he said, I don’t know. I said, what do they do? He said, oh, I was up [01:28:40] in Glasgow. They lasered it off and you know, I said, well yeah, but what did they tell you? It was, [01:28:45] I can’t remember. And I said, well and I again, to add value to the story, it [01:28:50] was the 21st of December. So I said to him, look, doesn’t look great, [01:28:55] but you know, don’t know what it is. Um, let’s get it checked. And [01:29:00] I said, but you know, try not to worry about it because you’ve had it before. It was nothing. You’ve got it [01:29:05] again. It’ll probably be nothing. Don’t worry about it. Um and his [01:29:10] wife said for the consultation with him, uh, so off he goes. I write the [01:29:15] letter to oral surgery to oral medicine, and we start [01:29:20] over from a.

Payman Langroudi: Good old days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We fax it over and we actually ring oral medicine. [01:29:25] Say, have you got the facts? They said yes, because I did it as a two week, uh, referral. So [01:29:30] he then gets an appointment for the 3rd of January to go and see [01:29:35] them, bearing in mind how many bank holidays we’ve got in that period. So we’re doing all right. And then [01:29:40] on that day, there was a massive snowfall in Liverpool and his appointment got cancelled and [01:29:45] put back two weeks. And in that two weeks he comes in to see me again. Because now he’s he’s actually [01:29:50] in a lot of pain and he opens his mouth and everything’s changed and it’s clearly something very [01:29:55] horrible. Um, and so, but at this point I’m working at the hospital. [01:30:00] So I take a photo and I go in and speak to the head of oral medicine and say, look, [01:30:05] this guy was doing last week. He’s not coming in for another, you know, have a [01:30:10] look at this further. Two weeks and straight away they said, oh God that’s clearly a squamous cell [01:30:15] carcinoma. So I so they said, you know, we more than [01:30:20] just a concert. I will know when he’s coming in. We’ll have it all ready.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll do the biopsies. We’ll just, we’ll run the case. [01:30:25] And so, so I’m thinking this is this is great service that’s doing really [01:30:30] well. And then um, about the Easter, I get [01:30:35] the, the letter that or the book, the, the, the case booklet from the GDC [01:30:40] because this patient’s now going after everybody, uh, he’s going after the hospital for delaying [01:30:45] his care. He went after the Maxfax team for, you know, and they, they [01:30:50] just threw the hospital’s lawyers behind it. No one had done anything wrong. It was it was it was a desperately sad [01:30:55] case. He was lashing out. Um, there were no winners. No winners at all in this scenario. [01:31:00] But he went after me for failing to diagnose and failing to [01:31:05] treat his problem. And now you and I would hope that a GDC [01:31:10] caseworker would have looked at that and made it just go, you know, quick letter, [01:31:15] dear. You know, dear patient, this dentist has done everything he’s done more than everything, [01:31:20] you know, taking photos. I’d gone in and spoke to oral medicine because I had the luxury of that, that, that access, [01:31:25] um, that took 11 months for that to go away.

Payman Langroudi: 11 [01:31:30] months of back and forth as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Back and forth. Um, [01:31:35] it was such a difficult time. I, I was working at the hospital, [01:31:40] uh, and I remember going to speak to Callum Johnson and I said, look, I’ve got this problem. And I [01:31:45] said, look, if I don’t want to bring any shame on the hospital. And he said, you’ve done nothing wrong. Don’t worry about [01:31:50] it. I just started working with Amin up at clinic three, three, four.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [01:31:55] I love that guy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, we we’ve worked together for 12 years, but I just started there with him. And [01:32:00] I approached him and I said, look, I don’t want to bring any embarrassment on the clinic, you know, because [01:32:05] my my back in the days we’d get the GDC booklet like once a month and [01:32:10] the case hearings would be in there. I thought, I’m going to be on there. I’m just building my reputation [01:32:15] at this point. I’m like ten years in, I’m just, I’m just just about building a name. I was [01:32:20] just started teaching with Phil. I said to Phil, look, I’ll stand back and I don’t want to bring any shame on your [01:32:25] great reputation. And I look back at all of them, said, you’ve done nothing wrong. [01:32:30] This is going to go away. Just you keep working with us, no problem. [01:32:35] But at the time, there was such a distrust of the GDC that [01:32:40] I doubted. I knew I’d done nothing wrong. I can tell a story now, and I know that given [01:32:45] my time again, I couldn’t have behaved any better. And everything was, you know, um, and [01:32:50] it, but it was a dark time. That was because I, you just constantly doubt yourself. [01:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: Everyone around you is telling you you’ve nothing to worry about. I remember coming down to London. Um, I [01:33:00] was with I’m with Dental protection and Jane Merivale, who’s now I think with BDA, was my [01:33:05] liaison. She was brilliant. She was. The support I got from from them was brilliant. And they brought in [01:33:10] external counsel because it was such a serious claim that if it was proven, the [01:33:15] consequences were going to be enormous, even though there was nothing to prove. But they brought in external [01:33:20] counsel. And I remember being in London, I had this meeting for about an hour, and I [01:33:25] felt totally reassured that everything was great. And they and they got to the end. She said, look, [01:33:30] don’t worry about this. Go away. Don’t worry. This is the easiest case that we’ve got to deal with at the moment. That [01:33:35] said, we don’t have a lot of faith in the GDC at the moment, and all of that hour of positivity [01:33:40] was undone and that’s how I slept. I didn’t sleep that night with that last sentence. Um, [01:33:45] that was dark and I was I was horrible to live with. [01:33:50] You know, I had young kids, um, I wasn’t present.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:55] was the emotion?

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it fear?

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what it was? [01:34:00] There was a fear of a. With hindsight, it’s ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: And if anyone’s [01:34:05] losing your. Your.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the profession and my one way of earning a living for my family and [01:34:10] my children. Um, we had not long moved home [01:34:15] house to the house we’re in now. We bought a doer upper. So the house was battered. Um, it [01:34:20] was our forever house in the project. And I thought, you know, how are we going to ever afford to run this and [01:34:25] make this work? There were visions of, you know, what else am I trained for? I mean, [01:34:30] we hear that in our profession all the time. What else can we do? And we can do a lot because we’ve got a lot of skill sets. [01:34:35] Yeah. Um, but just just a oh my God. You know, I’m going to embarrass [01:34:40] I’m in, I’m going to embarrass Phil. I’m going to let my family down. And [01:34:45] nobody could get through to me. You’ve actually done nothing wrong. This is going to be okay. [01:34:50] I just I knew it and I nodded and I just didn’t believe it until I got the letter [01:34:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time with the GDC at that point. It was really. It was an unknown entity. Yeah. Like [01:35:00] what was going to happen next?

Payman Langroudi: I think it was pre caseworkers as well. I think it didn’t it didn’t [01:35:05] go to a full hearing, but it went close to.

Payman Langroudi: You know it’s really interesting. It took 11 months [01:35:10] and you’ve done nothing wrong. Imagine you’d done something wrong. I mean you know like in [01:35:15] a career, sometimes you miss stuff. Sometimes you, you know, you make a mistake.

Payman Langroudi: All day long. [01:35:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s it’s the humanity side of that should be there too. But imagine now [01:35:25] you’ve done something wrong. Yeah. And you’re 11 months in.

Payman Langroudi: I genuinely don’t know how to cope with that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:35:30] And and concerned. You’re not going to be able to pay your kids school or your whatever it is, your mortgage or, [01:35:35] or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think we’re they’re better. I would like to think [01:35:40] they’re better. And I hear from people that they are.

Payman Langroudi: Improving, I think. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I still think we’ve got a way to go [01:35:45] because we you and I still see it on the forums. Yeah. The fear of of being [01:35:50] struck off. And I’ve said it before on, on forums, I actually think it’s relatively difficult to be [01:35:55] struck off. You’ve got to be a real idiot. And you’ve also, even if you make a mistake, the GDC don’t mind mistakes [01:36:00] as long as you show us how it’s not going to happen again. Show us that you’ve done some training. Show [01:36:05] us that you’ve. You know, I think, you know, I think the it is a better environment, [01:36:10] but I still think there’s a way to go. Um, but that was dark.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing because it’s [01:36:15] an irrational fear in some ways. Yeah. But, but at the same time, you go back [01:36:20] to that. What is it to be a professional? Yeah. One of the things is to be a professional is to be regulated. [01:36:25] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You’ll know from your wife that it’s the with lawyers, it’s the [01:36:30] same organisation that’s there, BDA and their GDC. Yeah. So, [01:36:35] so that that kind of goes to shows the point that it understands both sides. It understands [01:36:40] regulation and it sounds practice. But with us, there’s this sort of walled off, you [01:36:45] know, the BDA is like your friend, GDC is your enemy sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think there was [01:36:50] definitely that mindset. And I also think, you know, thankfully, my wife never had any regulatory [01:36:55] issues that she had to deal with of her own. But I always saw with things like the Law Society [01:37:00] that there was an element of, we’re going to back our own and protect them. But if you prove that there that [01:37:05] this person’s a baddie, then obviously we’ll sort this out. And I think the one thing that we always [01:37:10] used to see with the GDC was that there was the fear that we were guilty until proven innocent. [01:37:15] You had to prove your innocence, not the other way. Not they didn’t have to prove your guilt. And [01:37:20] I think that was a fear, um, that we had, whether it was rational.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers have one for [01:37:25] sure, dude. Yeah. Because notes have become this complete like, like you could have been the best [01:37:30] dentist in the world, but if you forgot to write that thing in the notes, that could be, you know, something [01:37:35] they get you on. Um, not to mention what’s it called? Dental law partnership. [01:37:40] Uh, they buy, they buy a case, you know about that. They go out there [01:37:45] and buy cases from all the other lawyers. Oh, your wife’s a lawyer. So you know how these.

Payman Langroudi: Ex-lawyer.

Payman Langroudi: Now, these sort of things work? Yeah. [01:37:50] Um, I feel like it needs to be an issue. Every dentist must have at some back [01:37:55] of his head something about standards and regulations, but not the number one, two, three, [01:38:00] four, five. Most important thing he’s thinking about, you know, number one, two and three should be [01:38:05] all around the patient. Yeah. You know, maybe then your team. Yeah. All of that then. Number 11. Yes. [01:38:10] Don’t be an idiot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, it’s interesting because I do a little bit [01:38:15] of teaching with, um, Leo Briggs from MD. You. Yeah. Um, he supports some of the [01:38:20] courses that we do and, and he, his view and I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but is [01:38:25] that we write too many notes. Yeah. And you actually, and I see it with some of the younger colleagues [01:38:30] I’m working with. When I get one of their patients referred in house, I can’t [01:38:35] actually find the pertinent information that I need because there’s all this noise. Yeah. And [01:38:40] our notes were always meant to be for us. You were supposed to be able to pick up someone else’s notes, know what [01:38:45] was done last time, know what’s supposed to be done next time. And it was, it was that. And obviously [01:38:50] if something bad happened, You. You told the story in the notes, but you didn’t record every [01:38:55] ounce of every conversation. And actually, you now look at people’s notes and you think, there’s [01:39:00] no way all those conversations actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of the West, man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know [01:39:05] about this? Like in China, the last three Leaders Xie and Dong Xiaoping and whatever [01:39:10] they were, all of them were engineers. Okay. That’s why when they build skyscrapers, it goes up quickly [01:39:15] and all that. Okay. Over on this side, lawyers are in charge. Yeah. Lawyers are in charge. And it’s [01:39:20] like when you put lawyers in charge and lawyers win. I feel like they have in in Dental. Yeah. Then [01:39:25] then regulatory becomes over important and stuff like this happens. [01:39:30] You know what you’re saying there is very pertinent, right? Patient outcomes are getting worse [01:39:35] because you can’t find the important bits of the notes, let alone you’ve got to spend the time writing [01:39:40] those essays. Patient outcomes are getting worse. But lawyers have won.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:39:45] It’s quite.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Can we do the grind the gears question again? Yeah. [01:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Does your wife not practice anymore?

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:39:55] She left law a long time ago. She had a couple of careers over the years. Um, she did about ten years as a [01:40:00] property lawyer, but she’s done a few things since.

Payman Langroudi: Are you gonna do your own place, [01:40:05] or do you feel like you’re an associate?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Um, I’ve nearly bought a practice twice. [01:40:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Um, nearly bought a practice many years ago, um, and got a bit shafted [01:40:15] at the 11th hour. Um, I had the option to buy into Rose Lane, um, a few years [01:40:20] back, but it would have meant, um dropping everything else. I did all my [01:40:25] teaching, my other clinics, my hospital at the time, because the only way to make it work was to be there [01:40:30] four and a half days a week. And I was only there three days a week. Um, and I made a conscious [01:40:35] decision. My wife and I made a conscious decision to that. We didn’t want to do that. I [01:40:40] loved teaching, I genuinely love teaching. Uh, it’s great fun. It’s [01:40:45] a, it’s a privilege. Um, And so I just thought, you know what? It’s not for me. And [01:40:50] with hindsight, I don’t for a minute regret it that I’ve not bought a practice and done it. I think [01:40:55] specialist practice, the goodwill is not worth the same as a general practice anyway. Um, I don’t [01:41:00] know that I’d, I’d have been a nice employer, but nice employers are not always the best, you know, [01:41:05] not the best business people.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and specialist associate is quite an interesting position isn’t it. Because [01:41:10] you get better, better um splits than generalists. Yeah. [01:41:15] I think plus the prices are higher. Yeah. So from the business perspective that’s cool. And [01:41:20] isn’t that a happy associate is one of the happiest jobs in the world. [01:41:25] Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you can, if you can do as a specialist, no one’s going to get in your way and tell you what to do. So you can [01:41:30] do what you want to do. All you need is patience, basically. That’s it. Yeah. End of no, [01:41:35] I would agree.

Payman Langroudi: I think all of those things that you’ve said, I, I, you know, yeah, you can command [01:41:40] a slightly better sort of split. You are working on a better split of a higher [01:41:45] fee. Um, you don’t need to be there five days a week because you’re not their general dentist, [01:41:50] you’re not there, you’re not there for the cement crowns. So you can do piecemeal work. The [01:41:55] peripatetic sort of work. Um, the only thing I’d say to [01:42:00] any associate listening is you’ve got to, you’ve got to understand the business [01:42:05] side of a practice though having nearly bought a couple of practices over the years, nearly done that. Yeah. [01:42:10] I, when I go to a practice and I’d hope that anyone I’ve worked with will testify [01:42:15] to this, I’m all in. It’s all it’s about me and I want the best for me. But actually, [01:42:20] I also want the best for the practice. And I’ve always done everything I can to promote the practice and [01:42:25] also promote my colleagues in the practice, because we we all benefit [01:42:30] when we all pull together.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Right. I mean, when I was an associate, I used to make an [01:42:35] absolute point of defending the principle amongst the nurses. Yeah. You know, like that [01:42:40] us and them thing that can go on. Um, number one, but number two I see it on mini [01:42:45] smile maker on our um composite course you get some associates come and [01:42:50] there’s a, there’s a friction between them and their boss that they 100% [01:42:55] will not buy a goddamn thing. Yeah, yeah, I get it. By the way, I [01:43:00] get it. If your boss keeps on changing your percentage and treating you like terribly, you [01:43:05] start to think, well, why should I put my hand in my pocket? But then you get the other side. You get these super [01:43:10] associates, whatever they call it. The guys bought his own scanner. He’s come he’s [01:43:15] buying everything from us, you know, and and he’s very happy. I mean, he I guess again, [01:43:20] you know, it’s a winner you’re talking about, right? Someone who’s managing to bring his own patients [01:43:25] in and all that.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then but then everything in between as well. But your [01:43:30] point is excellent because the associates job is, is much more than take [01:43:35] care of these patients. If you’re going to be someone who’s going to, you know, enjoy your work, right? [01:43:40] Enjoy your work, Understand that running a business is tough, and [01:43:45] the number of associates who don’t even realise they’re making a loss for their practice. A number of principals don’t [01:43:50] realise associates are making a loss for their practice. There’s a good amount you have to earn as an associate just [01:43:55] to be cash flow positive for the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Um, [01:44:00] I see as you see on some of the platforms on social media, you know, I’m an associate. I pay my [01:44:05] X percent. I want this, this and this. It’s all very, it’s all very me, me, myself [01:44:10] and I.

Payman Langroudi: Entitled.

Payman Langroudi: And yes, you are your own business. And yes, you’ve got to look after yourself. But [01:44:15] at the same time, you know, you are a business within a business and that your business is only going [01:44:20] to survive if that business does well. And it, I don’t know, I’ve been at Rose Lane now [01:44:25] for 15 years in.

Payman Langroudi: A happy place.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a really good place.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed [01:44:30] man.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed that every now and then there are issues a 17 [01:44:35] surgeries we’ve just moved to. It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Just expanded. It’s a great 17 [01:44:40] surgeries for floor. Fully digital in the house lab practice in the practice in-house.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:44:45] the specialities as well.

Payman Langroudi: Every everything apart from maxfax. Um so yeah, perio. [01:44:50]

Payman Langroudi: Who’s the who’s the principal.

Payman Langroudi: Guy called Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, he’s done really well. He’s [01:44:55] a good guy.

Payman Langroudi: What a hero.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what the one thing about Paul, he’s never, never [01:45:00] over promised anything and not delivered.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Payman Langroudi: You. To me, I’d say, um. But equally, [01:45:05] if I if I want something, I can’t have it, he’ll tell me why. Um, he’s also [01:45:10] whenever, if ever there was a time where there was a, you know, a split where it [01:45:15] could go 51% in my favour and 49% of his, that’s what he’d take that because it was like, [01:45:20] well, I don’t need that 1% makes no difference. But Ian will be happier. He’s just got he’s had a bigger picture [01:45:25] attitude about not the next six weeks, but the next six years or 20 years. [01:45:30] And you know, I’ll I won’t leave that practice. I’ll retire from there. I’m there three days a week. [01:45:35] I’m a high grossing associate. He knows I look after the patients well. My perio [01:45:40] feeds his implant work because I get sent stuff that Harry Potter couldn’t fix. You [01:45:45] know? So it’s a win win.

Payman Langroudi: How old is he?

Payman Langroudi: He’s actually. He’s [01:45:50] younger than me now. He’s 49.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing. Amazing. So you really will be there for the rest [01:45:55] of your career? Yeah. He’s a good guy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s. He’s been a good guy to work with. He’s a good friend. And yeah, [01:46:00] a lot of respect. And what he’s built is, is quite incredible. Yeah. Good on him.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:46:05] come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with the usual questions. Um, some quick fire ones. What stands [01:46:10] out to you as one of the best lectures you’ve ever been to? Or a course lecture? I like lecture I’m quite [01:46:15] interested in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to give you two, if you don’t mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So in terms of inspirational, [01:46:20] like blow Your Mind lectures, you’re looking at people for me, like Otto Zur in Germany, [01:46:25] the plastics guy. Um, okay. So while [01:46:30] some of the Italians are truly inspirational, they also often come with big egos. And Otto [01:46:35] is someone who is is quite humble considering how skilled he is. And I’ve spent time with him and [01:46:40] he wants to talk more about Bayern Munich and Liverpool Football Club than just about plastics. [01:46:45] And I’ve spent time over there and they. That blew my mind. What they can achieve and the evidence [01:46:50] base that the way he teaches it was phenomenal. Um, I’ll go back to fill our [01:46:55] though it was 2002 when I got Liverpool job and I [01:47:00] thought, I need to go and do a course and I went and did a four day section 63 [01:47:05] NHS, I think it was three I think Aintree Hospital. And [01:47:10] that blew my mind. I just it was like for all the training [01:47:15] we’d had at undergraduate level, I didn’t really understand anything. We just scraped stuff off teeth [01:47:20] and then we did it again six months later and they just like the. The clouds parted [01:47:25] and just there was clarity and everything made sense off the back of it. And I remember [01:47:30] leaving thinking, is it really that simple? You know, yes, perio can be very complicated, but [01:47:35] actually most of it is very simple fundamentals, doing the basics really well. And [01:47:40] that probably goes for tooth whitening and you know, do the basics really well and you’ll get good [01:47:45] results. And that that, you know, Arlene Thiel well, she changed my life because she [01:47:50] gave me the job that I didn’t really think I wanted. But then fill hour was the one who lit the little fire underneath [01:47:55] me because within, within four years of me going on that NHS [01:48:00] section 63 course, 2006, I went to Madrid to my first Euro perio. [01:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You guys love that, don’t you? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Perio Olympics.

Payman Langroudi: Glastonbury, it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Olympics. [01:48:10] Every three years in a major European city. 10,000 people, 10,000 [01:48:15] people.

Payman Langroudi: How many? 30 stages or something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’ve usually got at least ten stages [01:48:20] at any one time. The main auditorium is normally about six, 5 to 6000 people. They’re big.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:48:25] interesting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s great. And it’s not all perio. A lot of implant stuff, a lot of research stuff. It’s [01:48:30] it’s. Yeah. And every three years we’re all we’re all going to Munich in 2028. It’ll be great.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So. So yeah, the flower thing probably for me was the [01:48:40] career changing lecture. And it wasn’t a lecture, it was a course, but it really did.

Payman Langroudi: What about [01:48:45] if there was no time or money constraints. What course would you jump into tomorrow?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:50] would go and do the whole [01:48:55] Otto and Marcus Hertzler talk. The whole program. You look, it’s about [01:49:00] it’s about 30, 40 grand a year. So it’s almost like a mini masters, but it’s it’s [01:49:05] more just the hands on stuff. Um, those guys are gods. It doesn’t matter who you are, you’re [01:49:10] going to be able to learn something from them. I went over and did something just before the pandemic. Um, and [01:49:15] just, you know, remember feeling like I actually knew nothing about anything. And because I’d [01:49:20] had a couple of difficult, I’d had a couple of cases not go perfectly well. And I thought, you know what, even though I was teaching [01:49:25] some of this stuff, I thought, I need to just go back and have a refresh. You know, everyone should do that. You know, [01:49:30] no one’s too big to go on a course. And every time you go on a course, you learn something new anyway. [01:49:35] And so I went over to Munich, spent three days with with the two of them, um, and [01:49:40] just just tweaked everything and came back and then everything started working again.

Payman Langroudi: I got [01:49:45] massive respect for teachers who go on courses, man, you know, like a, it might be [01:49:50] difficult, you know, like for socially difficult to turn up as a delegate. Um, [01:49:55] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of humility though.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know it all. You never [01:50:00] will know it all. Yeah. You know, you can learn from monarch. Monarch [01:50:05] can learn from someone else or learn from it. It’s just no [01:50:10] one’s got all the answers. And so, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I actually think it’s almost [01:50:15] wrong to have a guru. You know, I always think you should if you if you your world is composite, you [01:50:20] should hear the gospel according to 3 or 4 different people. Gallup or, you know, [01:50:25] I think we had D-Day over at the weekend and we were Gulfport, D.J.. You know, [01:50:30] you should go and listen to other people and think, right, whose philosophy fits with me? And that’s the same for perio. So [01:50:35] for us, is it Otto? Is it Zucchelli? Is it Amit Patel? Is it me? Is [01:50:40] it who is it? You know, um, the the Peri Academy. Who is it? Go [01:50:45] and listen to people and decide who do I fit with? Um, because we don’t know. [01:50:50] No one knows it all.

Payman Langroudi: So what comes to mind when I ask what’s your favourite resource? What’s your favourite [01:50:55] book?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the, the Perry Bible, I [01:51:00] suppose is the, the Lindy textbook. It’s like double volume. Don’t really go to [01:51:05] that much anymore. That was my go to book when I was studying. Um, again, I [01:51:10] keep I’m going to get sponsored by these guys, but Otto’s uh, has, has the big pink book that everyone [01:51:15] talks about the Perry plastic surgery. Yeah. So teeth and implants, that’s just one of the most [01:51:20] beautifully photographed and put together Bibles on the planet. You know, it’s just amazing. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Love in your face when you say it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just it’s just Kool and the gang stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about [01:51:30] resource like maybe website, uh, blog, uh, Instagram page or [01:51:35] whatever it is.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know, I’ve got to be honest from a point of view, I don’t follow [01:51:40] many. Um, I tend to follow people. Lecture wise, I’ll go to conferences [01:51:45] because they’re there. Um, I prefer live in, [01:51:50] in event type learning. Um, I think in terms of keeping [01:51:55] in touch with the profession, you know, for dentists by dentists is the biggest platform. [01:52:00] Um, and I’m on there and I contribute and I listen and you [01:52:05] take stuff in. Um, and in terms of personal resource, if I, if I’m [01:52:10] struggling with something, I’m very lucky that through my work over the years with people like the [01:52:15] BSP, I’m quite well connected. I can, I can send Ian Chappell or Philip Preece or a [01:52:20] WhatsApp and, and just have that back up that I’ve, I got this [01:52:25] right Or am I.

Payman Langroudi: Doing this wrong that we all need that.

Payman Langroudi: Mentors or peer support? You know you’ve [01:52:30] got to do it was Nick, wasn’t it? The network effect. Build [01:52:35] your network. Yeah. Whatever world you’re in, build a network, build people that you can, you [01:52:40] can just go, I need a favour or can I ask you this? Or, you know, we [01:52:45] I think we do it. We do it all the time and people do it to me. And I think, you know, when [01:52:50] you’re lucky enough to be part of other people’s network, be there and be be present and [01:52:55] give your time. Because we’ve all had a hand up, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I was going to say, you must [01:53:00] have that now with mentees, right. Huge, you know, getting people excited about, [01:53:05] you know, people did that for you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, even if it’s just a couple of people coming in and [01:53:10] watching me in the clinic or, you know, coming on the course or wanting some mentorship or just some just a Facebook [01:53:15] message and advice, you always, I always just think, well, I had this support, so you [01:53:20] got to pay it back, haven’t you? Yeah. For sure. It’s, um, I think people need to remember [01:53:25] that.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah, it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three [01:53:30] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:53:35] so I did think about this one because I knew I hear the song, all you podcasts. [01:53:40] I’m sort of going to go with a bit of a musical theme. So [01:53:45] it’s not it’s not that musical, but you’ll get it when I explain. So my grandad, my mum’s [01:53:50] dad, um, he passed away before I was 18. Uh, [01:53:55] he never knew I went to dental school. I’d loved to have. I’d loved him to see where I’m. What I’m doing [01:54:00] now. Um, he had a real passion for music. So my musical [01:54:05] tastes are very weird and wonderful. Quite eclectic. One of his things was he [01:54:10] bought every number one single, whether he liked it or not, on on seven inch for about 8 [01:54:15] or 9 years. It’s a collection. Every single one. So whether you know, um, and [01:54:20] he always taught me that a good song is a good song, whether it’s hip hop, R&B, country [01:54:25] and Western rap. You know, just.

Payman Langroudi: I think that I think I agree with that, with the foreign, you know, like sometimes I don’t understand [01:54:30] a word of what’s being said, but it’s good music. Yeah, it’s a good song.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s a bassline or a riff [01:54:35] or something. So my granddad for that reason, and he was a good [01:54:40] guy. One of the people, he was the life and soul of a party. So he’d be great to have a dinner party. Um, [01:54:45] next one’s a bit weird, but I was chatting to my wife about this, but I. Chris [01:54:50] Evans is someone I really like, the radio presenter, Chris Evans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know Chris Evans because he. [01:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: I just think.

Payman Langroudi: Back in our day he was on fire. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Well, there was TFI and there was [01:55:00] don’t forget your toothbrush. And he was living quite a wild hedonistic life wasn’t he? Yeah, yeah. [01:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um what’s he up to now?

Payman Langroudi: I think he’d have great stories. I think so. He’s [01:55:10] now on. Well he was on radio two for years and now he hosts Virgin. And he’s he’s [01:55:15] totally different to who he was. He’s now teetotal and he’s he’s into running. But he’s actually [01:55:20] incredibly positive. And some people will hate that. Some people don’t. You know, it’s just too annoyingly [01:55:25] positive and upbeat all the time. Driving into work every morning. I quite like the [01:55:30] start to the day. Yeah. And I just think he I like his outlook on life and I like [01:55:35] and, and also he’s got that music background. He’s interviewed, he’s, he’s interviewed and partied with [01:55:40] some of the big, big names. Yeah, for sure. So he’d be good. Um, and my [01:55:45] last one is probably a sort of a musical sort of sort of hero would be Billy Joel. Oh, [01:55:50] um, another guy who’s probably been a bit of a hellraiser in his time and would have some good stories. My granddad [01:55:55] wouldn’t fit in because he was almost teetotal, but he’d fit in with Chris Evans new model. Um, but [01:56:00] yeah, Billy Joel, he’s, he’s someone who I’ve only seen live once. Um, but it was someone that my [01:56:05] granddad got me listening to. Um, and yeah, I think that would make [01:56:10] for an interesting evening. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Last question is a deathbed question. Three [01:56:15] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:56:20]

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Let’s skip that. Let’s skip that, because the chances of that seem [01:56:25] to be very similar every time I ask them. Okay, like another one. Um, how would you like to be remembered? [01:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: As a nice guy who doesn’t [01:56:35] take himself too seriously and will always help if you [01:56:40] ask, that would do.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s [01:56:45] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Me. That’s someone who’s not taking himself too seriously. Yeah. No, that’s a perfect answer. [01:56:50] Good. It’s been amazing, man. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been good fun.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:56:55] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit [01:57:00] subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:57:05] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Give us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [01:57:10] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:57:15] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.