Audio

Sarita Stephanie: It’s a societal problem, you know, like, it’s not that we want women [00:00:05] want to not be taken seriously or don’t ask for a pay rise. It’s a societal problem [00:00:10] that we have in our mind that, okay, I get I get a job, it’s okay enough for [00:00:15] me. You know, like we never brought into the position for centuries now to ask for more [00:00:20] while men do, you know, like we it will take years before we overcome this. [00:00:25] It’s happening, but it will take years. Because before we overcome this, and, you know, [00:00:30] like, now, if I offer a job to somebody, then negotiate with me. I will tell you, like, really? You have [00:00:35] to negotiate with me.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward [00:00:50] on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:00:55] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:01:00] everyone. Welcome back to another episode [00:01:05] of Mind Movers. Today we have the incredible Syreeta Stephanie, [00:01:10] who I am privileged to call my friend. I originally met her through Doctor Mahi, who I’m sure a lot of [00:01:15] you know who runs global dental Collective. Sweet is my favourite one. Jo King Mahi loves [00:01:20] you. Um, but Syreeta is an absolute force and we connected immediately [00:01:25] when we met because everything that Syreeta is about is something I really stand for within [00:01:30] female empowerment. She is an incredible mother and entrepreneur, [00:01:35] um, and just an absolute star in her own right. So welcome Syreeta.

Sarita Stephanie: Hey thank [00:01:40] you Rona. That’s very kind of you.

Rhona Eskander: I know we had a bond when we first met. Syreeta even said she was just like, Rona’s [00:01:45] my favourite dentist. So here we go.

Payman Langroudi: When did you first meet?

Rhona Eskander: Was it at the. I can’t [00:01:50] remember, maybe. Like. I think it was like a couple of years ago. No, it.

Sarita Stephanie: Was at your Christmas, your [00:01:55] family Christmas party, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Christmas. And obviously everyone was like crushing being like, who is that? Like gorgeous couple, [00:02:00] you know, and mercy and to walk through the door. So anyways, love at first sight. We became closer than [00:02:05] me and Mahi. So it’s all good and the rest is history.

Payman Langroudi: We start this podcast with how did Rona meet the guest? Just [00:02:10] the normal because he.

Rhona Eskander: Thinks I have such an array of friends. Like he’s like, how do you know this [00:02:15] person? No.

Sarita Stephanie: No, you’re just a very good vibe and good energy and people get attracted to you. [00:02:20] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you. Okay, so Syreeta, the first thing is, is that I love to [00:02:25] start from the very beginning right now, so that people that are listening know. The reason why I invited [00:02:30] Syreeta is because she runs an incredible female platform [00:02:35] female business for egg freezing, and I was somebody that was an early adopter of egg freezing. [00:02:40] We had my dad on the podcast a few weeks ago talking about this, because he sat me down when I was 32 [00:02:45] and barely anyone was talking about it. He tried to have the conversation and people got really defensive. Some [00:02:50] people even got offended by the conversation. But before we go into your business, [00:02:55] can you tell us a little bit about who you are, how what career [00:03:00] you were doing before and a little bit about your background? Sure.

Sarita Stephanie: So I am Italian. [00:03:05] I was born and raised in Venice. I spent all my life [00:03:10] there. Then when I was 18, I moved to Milan. I actually studied history of art, so my [00:03:15] background is very artsy. Then I moved to London so that everybody was making money [00:03:20] in the finance space. So I decided, okay, that’s where I had to be. And I did [00:03:25] a master’s in finance, starting from scratch in English and everything. So it was quite challenging [00:03:30] as I haven’t even completed my master’s at Westminster in Finance, [00:03:35] that I got a job into the biggest brokerage firm in the world, worked [00:03:40] there for three years. He it was horrible, [00:03:45] the worst time of my life, the shittiest job somebody could have probably been a broker in. [00:03:50] Uh. Sorry, guys, but that’s true in a big brokerage firm, especially if you are a girl [00:03:55] in a trading floor with a thousand dudes. It was terrible. But [00:04:00] I always say that from there, I learned to how to be in an arena with lions [00:04:05] so and fight back. So there was a very good training for me. From there, [00:04:10] circumstances took me to work in the healthcare space, so I [00:04:15] started to work for many years after that into the big data [00:04:20] for pharmaceutical companies, biotech life science industry, which [00:04:25] is the biggest love of my life. So um, then from there, I then started Amelis. [00:04:30] I actually did an incubator that helped me a little bit to quit my very high paid job and [00:04:35] decided to do The Founder Life. And then I met my co-founder, [00:04:40] Yasmin on the way, and we started Amelie’s through our personal [00:04:45] fertility journey.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. So there’s lots to unpack there. Now. First of all, working [00:04:50] in finance as a female, was that very you said it’s like working with a pack of lions. Would [00:04:55] you say that’s because of the way that you were treated, or do you think it’s just because the job entailed [00:05:00] you to come with sort of like a very masculine energy to the job?

Sarita Stephanie: There are [00:05:05] some elements to it, to to it. So I was [00:05:10] very good at my job and it was never enough [00:05:15] because I was because of I was one of the few girls on the trading floor. I had to fight [00:05:20] double and make double to just even being seen against like all of these [00:05:25] guys on the trading floor. So that was like very, very they prompt me to work more, [00:05:30] to do more and stuff. And then I became a bit more aggressive. And also I [00:05:35] would say when you are basically like in a very [00:05:40] male dominated environment, you start to act a bit [00:05:45] like a guy, you know, like like you start to like, okay, so yeah, let’s go out tonight and get [00:05:50] smashed. Okay. Yeah, you go with it because you have to somehow to survive. [00:05:55] So yeah, there were some elements to it that, you know, for survival have to. Be. [00:06:00] Do more. Be more. Be there earlier and everything. But at the same time also I [00:06:05] had to produce more than any other guy that was around me to earn their respect, because otherwise [00:06:10] they would have walked over me. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And you’d imagine in these situations [00:06:15] when you say you’re good at your job, it means you make more money than the next man. So [00:06:20] isn’t that what they’re looking at, how much money you’re making? Yeah, I.

Sarita Stephanie: Was not even making more money than any other [00:06:25] man because, uh, you know, sometimes, you know, it was, um, I had to do double [00:06:30] to be at the same level. So, you know, there’s some, um, something that I’m very big [00:06:35] advocate is that also, like equality at the working space is not the same [00:06:40] also in terms of salaries. Well, this.

Rhona Eskander: Is going to say I was just about to say the gender pay gap, which we’ve discussed [00:06:45] before, is the thing. I recently discovered that in dentistry there’s gender pay gap stuff, which [00:06:50] I thought was weird because I was like, well, associates and self-employed. I don’t know, it was weird. I just saw some [00:06:55] statistics. But I think what people say is like, for example, is that less females are likely [00:07:00] to own a practice. Less females are likely to do. I listen, I’m going off. The stats were shown. [00:07:05] I’m fine. I’m a boss woman. I own my own practice. We know that you know that. But [00:07:10] gender pay gap is a thing in the UK. If it was.

Payman Langroudi: Real, you’d only hire women, [00:07:15] wouldn’t we? And I’ve got 43 employees. 20 of them are men. Why wouldn’t I just hire [00:07:20] women if they’re cheaper?

Sarita Stephanie: No, but it’s real. Like in a big corporation. [00:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: In a women only.

Sarita Stephanie: Women in a big corporations, they don’t even display the salary [00:07:30] like it’s a fact in the in the corporate that was working before, I [00:07:35] was not able to disclose my salary to my colleagues because their salary [00:07:40] was double my salary. A lot of.

Payman Langroudi: Companies say that a lot of companies. No, no.

Sarita Stephanie: It’s it’s like it’s statistical. [00:07:45]

Payman Langroudi: You see what I’m saying? If, if, if, if it’s true that you can pay a woman less to do the same.

Rhona Eskander: Thing she’s saying, so.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:07:50] wouldn’t they?

Rhona Eskander: Why wouldn’t you just.

Payman Langroudi: Hire women.

Rhona Eskander: And women? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why were there so many men there? They should hire [00:07:55] all women.

Sarita Stephanie: It’s also statistical proven that when you present a job to [00:08:00] a woman that has, I don’t know, 50 K salary per year, I’m just saying she will accept [00:08:05] it and men will negotiate like, it’s like statistically [00:08:10] proven as is. I don’t know why there’s in the UK government. I [00:08:15] don’t know, it’s just maybe something that we feel like okay, you know, like I, I [00:08:20] don’t deserve more like something in our minds. Okay. I’m content with that. So [00:08:25] now, you know, like I expect we are a female only team if anybody [00:08:30] doesn’t negotiate with me. Yeah. On purpose. Yes. I’m, um. Positively. [00:08:35] What was the word? Positive discriminating. I’m doing positive discrimination and I’m guilty. [00:08:40] Fuck it. I’m not. I don’t care. That’s how it is. I love her, that’s I [00:08:45] love that. That’s how it is. Also, there’s an element that, you know, like for the kind of business we’re doing [00:08:50] at the top of like the team, obviously we need to hire women [00:08:55] because they emphasise more with our mission and journey. Unless, you know, like there are very specific [00:09:00] cases which we haven’t met yet, we haven’t met yet cases of men, [00:09:05] or maybe they’re doing transgender or some changes there that emphasise [00:09:10] with the egg freezing and fertility mission. So it’s on purpose, both.

Payman Langroudi: Of your bosses. [00:09:15] I’m a boss, right. And it’s a sad truth of being a boss that the people who ask [00:09:20] for pay rises get pay rises more than people who don’t ask for pay [00:09:25] rises.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know, like, listen to me. In my clinic everyone asks me for a pay rise, but I also. And every five [00:09:30] minutes. But like everyone. Yeah, everyone. Everywhere all the time. And the problem is as [00:09:35] well. Because what I have struggled with and unfortunately, like I think this is being a [00:09:40] female founder, which I will talk to, which will go on to Sarita, has been one of the biggest challenges in my [00:09:45] life. And I always thought to myself, naively, being a female founder, [00:09:50] if you assert your value and you are, you [00:09:55] know, you don’t have to go with aggressive work tactics, you can still [00:10:00] gain respect from your colleagues and your peers. But I’m actually wrong because also, like you said, [00:10:05] you have on purpose with the fact, with the business that you’ve built, you [00:10:10] have employed a lot of amazing, empowered females. In my job, I [00:10:15] didn’t do that in my clinic. You know, in any other businesses that I’ve been involved with, I just [00:10:20] kind of like had a team and I was like, oh, this is the way it is. And then I really understood the difficulties and the [00:10:25] power dynamics and the way that I’m spoken to is actually very different from [00:10:30] my previous boss, who was an older man. And the things they [00:10:35] say to me, the things they ask me, the way that they send messages, is completely different [00:10:40] than the way they spoke, because.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a woman.

Rhona Eskander: But I think it’s because but I have also found [00:10:45] it. And Sarita doesn’t have this problem. I’d like to have your input. I want to be liked. And [00:10:50] Jago said to me the other day, he said, get over it like you’re a boss. Like, not everyone’s [00:10:55] going to love you because sometimes I’m too afraid. So when people come and ask for. It’s [00:11:00] a go to Prav. I’m like, they’ve asked. And he goes, you don’t have to say yes. You know that. You don’t have [00:11:05] to say yes. But I find it a very difficult thing to assert my power. But also, have I been conditioned [00:11:10] as a woman to be nice and liked, which I don’t think you struggle with, but it’s certainly a struggle of mine.

Sarita Stephanie: But [00:11:15] I’ll tell you what I think about this. But also, like it’s a societal [00:11:20] problem, you know, like it’s not that we want women want to [00:11:25] not be taken seriously or don’t ask for a pay rise. It’s a societal problem that we have in our mind [00:11:30] that, okay, I get I get a job, it’s okay enough for me. You know, like we never [00:11:35] brought into the position for centuries now to ask for more while men do, you [00:11:40] know, like we it will take years before we overcome this. It’s happening, but it will [00:11:45] take years. Because before we overcome this, and, you know, like, now, if I offer a job [00:11:50] to somebody, then negotiate with me. I will tell you, like, really, you have to negotiate with me. Like, [00:11:55] for example, Dana, that, you know, like at the beginning we were like, okay, this is it. I’m like, no, I want more equities. [00:12:00] I want like a higher salary. I’m like, okay, yes. Like you get it, you know, like like just [00:12:05] because you ask you get it, you know, like and it’s fair, you know, it’s fair. But at [00:12:10] the end of the day, I don’t think it’s like we really want to I think it’s intrinsic [00:12:15] in our societal behaviour that we don’t go for more, we don’t ask for [00:12:20] more. I think it’s very intrinsic in how we behave right now as women. And [00:12:25] we are set back by by this, you know, like if you look at the statistic events that are like women [00:12:30] on the top of like big corporates, it’s increasing. Yes, but it’s still [00:12:35] very low. The numbers compared to men, which is, you know, we have a lot of work to do, but that’s how [00:12:40] it is.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure in my experience I’m not sure it’s a man woman issue. We have women who [00:12:45] ask and are very aggressive financially and we have men who don’t. Yeah. It’s [00:12:50] it’s it’s something that is I think it’s a character trait. And what I’m saying, as I [00:12:55] think as a teacher spawned that problem to go away in a way, somehow. Yeah. So you just think, oh, am I going [00:13:00] to lose this person? Yeah. Yeah. All of those things come into it. Um, but also.

Sarita Stephanie: Now there are some [00:13:05] rules around how, when you hire, I mean, maybe, you know, it’s, um, I’m not talking [00:13:10] in specific cases, but in a corporate, let’s say, for example, at [00:13:15] the brokerage firm I was working at, you have to when you interview [00:13:20] and you need new hires, you have to at least interview half women, half men, you [00:13:25] know, like, so like now some rules are coming up to it. You need [00:13:30] at least to interview half women, men, and then you offer the job to the most qualified candidate. [00:13:35] But you have to. So, you know, like so you offer to redress it a little. They’re trying to [00:13:40] redress this industry.

Payman Langroudi: Women women don’t don’t put themselves up as lecturers. [00:13:45]

Sarita Stephanie: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But let me talk about this because I am somebody that has lived through this within [00:13:50] the Dental arena. So I don’t know if you know this. The majority of dentists are actually female. Like it’s marginal [00:13:55] difference, but I think 55% are females, right. So there’s a lot more females. [00:14:00] You look at some of the biggest institutions and academies within the dental arena, and [00:14:05] you never see women at the forefront. I spend my life challenging people and [00:14:10] big people, and I say to them, this is great. Why don’t you have a female on your panel? Why don’t you have a lecturer on your [00:14:15] panel? Why haven’t you had a female president? Do da da da da da da da. And I asked them all the time. I always ask them [00:14:20] and they get a little bit miffed. I’ve told the story before about [00:14:25] Christian Coachman. Didn’t I tell you this many years ago? So there was [00:14:30] something called like the Instagram Dental stars or something like that, and it had like some of the most [00:14:35] prominent dentists on it, and they sent me a message saying, oh, do you want to sign [00:14:40] up? And I said, this is really great, but you don’t have. It’s sad that in this day and age, you don’t have a single female on your panel. [00:14:45] And apparently my message got sent in the like, WhatsApp group of the male panellists, and [00:14:50] they were kind of like laughing at me.

Rhona Eskander: Christian turned around and he said, Keep Christian. Christian is like [00:14:55] one of the most respected dentists in the world. He turned around and goes, I know Rhona and she’s [00:15:00] got 100% a point. And they were like, yeah, well, we might put like a female lecturer next year. He goes, [00:15:05] no, no, no, you’re going to do it now and you’re going to put her on the panel with all of us. And I got it. Now [00:15:10] in terms of what you said you were, you don’t ask, you don’t get. So people are asked, do you see what I mean? [00:15:15] I made the point. But I think that it is really challenging because people don’t do [00:15:20] enough. And you might say, well, you know, you’ve just got to put yourself out there. But it’s the same way that we’ve got to create the opportunities. [00:15:25] I think you make it to black and white, like when Black Lives Matters happened. A people [00:15:30] then really, really positively integrated black people [00:15:35] into so many different things campaigns, workplaces, etc. and I think that was a really positive movement. [00:15:40] And yes, we should shine a spotlight on those people because for so many years [00:15:45] they weren’t given opportunities. And I think that that’s still to come in some elements for women across [00:15:50] the board. It’s my view. Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: I mean, for sure there’s a lot of work to [00:15:55] do. And you know, like again, I think I’m positive biased, like. The one we have [00:16:00] that we hire like top, top of our executive team will be only [00:16:05] women. And it’s decided if people hate me for this, I don’t give a fuck. [00:16:10] Like, seriously, whatever. Like, you know, like on on your point. You know, like, [00:16:15] do you like me or don’t like me, I don’t care. It’s okay. You know, like, we keep head up. We’re going. [00:16:20] We we have very clear what’s our mission. If some people get offended by talking [00:16:25] about egg freezing, why you’re getting offended. Seriously? Like, why are you getting offended? [00:16:30] It’s creating options for women. It’s not for you. Okay, maybe it’s for the next one where we keep [00:16:35] closing doors to people that maybe, for example, I’m talking about, like freezing this case or fertility [00:16:40] preservation or other fertility treatments or fertility testing. Why [00:16:45] are we closing down options to other people? That is, maybe it’s not your problem, [00:16:50] but maybe it’s a problem of somebody else. It’s all about creating options nowadays. So. [00:16:55]

Rhona Eskander: So let’s take a step back. So tell us about I always struggle. Say, Amelia. [00:17:00] Amelia. Amelia. So first tell us about the name, how you came up with the name. And I want us to I [00:17:05] want you to tell us what the platform does.

Sarita Stephanie: Yes. So Emily’s, um, [00:17:10] means a meal. Sorry. A meal means mother in Elvish. And [00:17:15] at the beginning, you know, when we were trying to come up with a name, we we were trying to make [00:17:20] an association with the word mother in different languages. And, you know, obviously in the fertility space, [00:17:25] it was widely used. So we tried to be a little bit, uh, [00:17:30] more creative, but also, you know, like we wanted to add a touch of magic to it [00:17:35] to be more female sounding like so. And then we came up with families, [00:17:40] and what we do is we cover the fertility [00:17:45] preservation journey from the beginning to the end for women, from exploring [00:17:50] your options, understanding where you are at, testing with one [00:17:55] of our partner facilities across the UK to holding hands of [00:18:00] women that wants to start the treatment and then they get on board. And in one of our partner clinics across [00:18:05] the country, we’re building a lot of services around the egg freezing and [00:18:10] fertility testing options. So stay tuned. We have something new that will come up that will [00:18:15] open up the market a lot and make the treatment more affordable for women out [00:18:20] there that wants to test, simply understand their fertility or go [00:18:25] through the entire treatment. And uh, also, we are, uh, [00:18:30] doing a lot of work in the awareness space because just, you know, with a simple £50 [00:18:35] test that you can do with one of our partner facility around [00:18:40] the country, you can discover if you have underlying condition and you can take [00:18:45] very conscious decision and you can basically women out there, they can take empowered [00:18:50] decision. And everything around Emily’s is free for the patients. So every patient [00:18:55] can go on Emily’s, browse their options understanding through our [00:19:00] blogs what’s the treatment, what are the costs and so on. So everything is very transparent. [00:19:05]

Rhona Eskander: I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Explain what it is exactly.

Sarita Stephanie: The so when you go on Emily’s for [00:19:10] example, you can book one of our one of the fertility tests, which is called AMH. [00:19:15] That gives you an indication of where you are, you know, your burn reserve. That’s [00:19:20] much more to it, but it gives you essentially an idea on where you are [00:19:25] on your on your ovarian reserve. It’s not an indicator if you are [00:19:30] getting pregnant or not. It just gives you an idea of how long you have. Essentially, [00:19:35] once you do the test, what you can do through Emily’s is that you have 20 [00:19:40] minutes free chats with one of our partner clinics. We partner with Lister [00:19:45] Great Portland Equal Area. We are taking numbers also like a new clinic in [00:19:50] Manchester. And then we have another clinic coming on board in centre of London. [00:19:55] You can chat for free with one of their doctors. Let’s [00:20:00] say for example, you want you are looking at Lister or IB. Well, if [00:20:05] you want more boutique experience, you go in the platform, you book a free consultation [00:20:10] with a doctor or an embryologist of one of the first specialists that this clinic offers [00:20:15] for free to our Emily’s user.

Sarita Stephanie: And then you chat with them. You [00:20:20] can ask any question you want and then from there we onboard you. We just launch [00:20:25] our app. You will be able to track your your journey, your medication, your [00:20:30] ovulation times like period. Literally everything through the Emily’s app. [00:20:35] And this app was designed from women to women. Uh, my co-founder [00:20:40] Yasmin, is a software engineer from from Imperial with great knowledge [00:20:45] of health care products. So she’s the one that built it. We have an in-house designer, [00:20:50] too, another woman that designed the entire app. So it’s very, very, [00:20:55] very patient, friendly, user friendly build from women to women. And this [00:21:00] app is free also. So any patient even doing treatments in other hospitals [00:21:05] or clinics can use this app. We’re launching it at the end of this month, so [00:21:10] like this week or next week. And from there, you will also be [00:21:15] able soon to be able to track where you’re at, where your eggs are frozen, [00:21:20] if you want to use them, what you have to do and basically like the post process [00:21:25] of egg freezing.

Payman Langroudi: What led you to actually coming to this business? Did you have [00:21:30] fertility issues yourself or was that the reason?

Sarita Stephanie: So it’s an [00:21:35] interesting question because as soon as I turned 30, I started to be a bit of heart attacks [00:21:40] for, uh, not joking wise, not hearted real heart attacks. But I started to like anxiety. [00:21:45] Anxiety about what I’m going to do now. Like, seriously, I don’t want to have any kids soon. [00:21:50] Uh, I mean, a long terme relationship, but probably soon. I was getting married and, [00:21:55] you know, I was like, oh, he’s younger than me. And what I’m going to do and all [00:22:00] of these kind of things. So I was asking myself a lot of questions on really, when am I actually [00:22:05] going to have a kid? Am I going to have a kid? So I basically [00:22:10] had this conversation with my husband now that at the time maybe we were not even engaged or something, [00:22:15] and we decided that I should we should have looked at fertility preservation [00:22:20] option. You have to consider that May. His father, uh, is [00:22:25] a fertility expert. He has a clinic. He’s a gynaecologist and has a clinic in Spain. [00:22:30] So as soon as he met me, the first meeting with [00:22:35] my father in law, he was like, I think you should freeze your eggs. Literally.

Rhona Eskander: That’s such a middle eastern thing. Like Payman [00:22:40] met my dad. My dad sat me down at 31 and was like, time to freeze [00:22:45] the eggs. I was like, today, like literally.

Sarita Stephanie: Same, same. He was like, he met me. [00:22:50] He was like. Like we were talking a month in New Zealand, a month here, mom. There. I was like, sorry, [00:22:55] um, I think we should freeze your eggs. I’m like, why are you even talking to me about this? Seriously? [00:23:00] Like, I’m 28, 29, whatever. I’m so young, like, uh uh, you’re not that young, like, [00:23:05] whatever. And from that process to actually, when I froze my eggs, I was like 32. [00:23:10] So I froze my eggs at 32 years old, [00:23:15] just turned 32. And, um, that really had a lot of anxiety from me and [00:23:20] considered that, again, I was like in a long terme relationship, you know, so I was [00:23:25] kind of like, okay, this guy for sure is going to be the father of my kid one day. And yeah, [00:23:30] I froze my eggs. I saw that the process was unnecessarily difficult. [00:23:35] And then even if I had a lot of support and I was surrounded by [00:23:40] gynaecologists, I was still alone, injecting myself, you know, like [00:23:45] trying to feel like what’s going on with my body, I feel bloated. Am I about to [00:23:50] am I about to die? Am I surviving? What’s going on? I feel like this. I feel like that I’m having [00:23:55] discharge and this is this normal? Is this not normal? You know, like, so like you’re basically go through [00:24:00] the process and it’s still very much unknown.

Sarita Stephanie: Like you walk blindly into a [00:24:05] treatment that you’re like, okay, uh, why I never knew about my fertility. [00:24:10] And to be fair, before that moment, I didn’t even know if I could have a child. [00:24:15] I never tested my fertility. I didn’t absolutely anything like I could be like, [00:24:20] maybe I infertile. Don’t know, maybe my window was already closed. I don’t know, you know, because [00:24:25] we don’t talk about this. You know, we always think, oh, I’m healthy. I could have a child. No, it’s not exactly. [00:24:30] It doesn’t really work like this. Or even my periods, you know, like I had good periods. But actually, [00:24:35] uh, for a period of my life, I was anorexic, and I didn’t have my period, you [00:24:40] know, so maybe that could have affected my fertility. So, you know, there’s there’s [00:24:45] a lot of factors that we don’t really talk about it with women at schools or even, [00:24:50] you know, like your mom doesn’t know about it. My mom is old style. You know, like, for my mom, [00:24:55] I could have 15 kids and will be fine, you know, like, so, like, actually my mom was like, [00:25:00] super against it. And at the end, like, I went, I walked into it and I’m very chill about [00:25:05] it.

Payman Langroudi: Why are people against it?

Rhona Eskander: I mean, look, I want to interject there because I can completely relate. And I think [00:25:10] like, because now I’m 37, like there’s a huge, huge like kind of pressure. But [00:25:15] I feel now I’m like, I keep thinking to myself, I’m so happy I froze my eggs [00:25:20] because if I have any problems now, I got such a great amount of eggs in 1 in [00:25:25] 1 go. I have a lot of people because when I came out and spoke about it five years ago, so [00:25:30] many people were like, thank you so much. Lots of people found it really brave. There was like this whole [00:25:35] stigma because it was like, oh, whoops, objection. The objection is, is that people think you’re going against nature. [00:25:40] And again, a societal problem. The problem is, is that people perceive women as baby making [00:25:45] machines. Think of Handmaid’s Tale if you’ve never seen it, you know the irony. You know we’re here to produce. We’re put on this earth to [00:25:50] produce and we’re given like fertility window. Now, realistically, you [00:25:55] know, having spoken to my father growing up, of course women do have a window for fertility and. Sadly, I’ve [00:26:00] even met women that said to me, I wish I froze my eggs because I got menopause at 33. It’s [00:26:05] really rare, but it can happen. And then she had like one egg and luckily she got pregnant with [00:26:10] that okay.

Rhona Eskander: But she went through a horrific period and she could only have that one child and super anxious. [00:26:15] Yeah. And and and these things happen. I think the reality is, is that [00:26:20] there is a little bit of a disconnect. And I think the disconnect is, is that where we are mentally [00:26:25] and our minds? To have a children is so different from where our bodies are physically. Right? Because you have to think even [00:26:30] cavemen times or Victorian times, people having children at like 15, right. You get your period at like 1112 [00:26:35] and then you expected to like push out children. Now women are like really wanting to invest in their career, [00:26:40] who they are before they can provide for a child. And I think that the economic situation [00:26:45] and the environment that we live in demands so much more for us to bring up a child like you [00:26:50] want to give your child a good life, like you know how expensive children are, you know you’ve got your own. So I think that there’s like that disconnect. [00:26:55] But I think ultimately a lot of people say, especially the old school women, well, [00:27:00] you left it this long, so it’s your fault. You left it this. You made the choice to leave it [00:27:05] this long. You didn’t pick a husband.

Payman Langroudi: Follow your career. Don’t.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:27:10] You chose not to marry that person. You chose not to have this, etc. not recognising [00:27:15] that there are so many other factors. Because now having a child isn’t just about being fertile, it’s [00:27:20] about your socioeconomic status. It’s about, you know, the ability to give it [00:27:25] emotionally and love to be yourself. Like the best version of who you are, you know? And like, we [00:27:30] don’t talk about other issues, like women suffer from prenatal depression, postnatal depression, like there’s so [00:27:35] many other things. You know, we had Amy on this podcast, she suffered from hyper can [00:27:40] never say the name hyper something gravidarum. And basically she almost and some women [00:27:45] terminate the child because they get a type of sickness way worse than morning sickness the whole way through the [00:27:50] pregnancy. So she lost, I don’t know, like ten kilos, and she’s already tiny because [00:27:55] she was vomiting from start to finish, but the baby still gets all the nutrients and apparently [00:28:00] was in hospital the whole pregnancy, the whole nine months. And some women have to terminate because it gets [00:28:05] that bad, and because some of them even are so depleted from their own stuff. So there’s a lot of things [00:28:10] around it that I think that have so many stigmas. We expect women to just be okay. And I think the fact that we’re not having [00:28:15] conversations about the complexity around fertility makes things much harder. [00:28:20]

Sarita Stephanie: Yeah. And also, I tell you that this is like from our statistics, women [00:28:25] that use amylase, 80% of our patients users are single. [00:28:30] So it’s not even you just want to delay motherhood for career purposes [00:28:35] or stuff, like you just haven’t met the partner that you want to have a child from, [00:28:40] you know, like so. And I was recently looking at some stats, data [00:28:45] on medical studies, mostly more like the highest number of [00:28:50] women that were single when they froze their eggs. So, you know, like you do it just to give yourself [00:28:55] some option. Maybe in the future if you met your partner to to be [00:29:00] able to become a parent. But also like in terms of fertility, we [00:29:05] always talk about the woman. But 50% of the equation is also the men. And [00:29:10] you know, like it’s I was looking at another study. This firm [00:29:15] quality has declined of 50% in the past 50 years.

Rhona Eskander: My dad gave [00:29:20] us a statistic that, you know, after the millions of spum, they get rejected. Remember, 4% [00:29:25] are only good quality where they like, you know, the tail and the head and everything is all like, fine, it’s [00:29:30] only 4%. I was blown away, you know, by that.

Payman Langroudi: Is it half and half and. No.

Rhona Eskander: What she [00:29:35] means she’s saying there’s another person. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Statistically. What is it like she said.

Rhona Eskander: Like almost. [00:29:40]

Sarita Stephanie: 50 over 50. Yeah. It’s like always like a there’s a 50% [00:29:45] male in the equation. No, I know that.

Payman Langroudi: But most of the issues due to the man or the.

Sarita Stephanie: Woman, 50% [00:29:50] of IVF cases fail because of the men. So it’s like [00:29:55] we can say it’s 5050, okay, essentially. So it’s like we have to [00:30:00] look at like now they started to look at the sperme quality, mobility numbers, [00:30:05] etc., etc. but before it was like just perception that the woman was infertile, [00:30:10] you know, because families.

Payman Langroudi: Have a male section as well.

Sarita Stephanie: Not yet. We will we will start [00:30:15] hiring.

Rhona Eskander: I think that needs to be talked about because in the same, in the same way that [00:30:20] society blames the woman. I think that also for men, they can find it really [00:30:25] like Damascus dating to be like it’s my firm. That’s the issue. And I think that conversation. [00:30:30] Yeah. Look, don’t give me that scowl look like it’s like all the.

Payman Langroudi: Conversations that you say are a problem. I [00:30:35] just can’t believe they’re a problem.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, of course.

Payman Langroudi: Even even even.

Rhona Eskander: The woman will be okay with you being [00:30:40] like, it’s your problem. I don’t think a lot of men will have an issue with that or wouldn’t even want to get tested.

Sarita Stephanie: Yeah, [00:30:45] but there is. A lot of men don’t want to address that and they don’t want to get tested. And also [00:30:50] we’ve seen that usually if the man gets tested is because of the woman [00:30:55] pushing the men to test.

Payman Langroudi: But maybe he doesn’t want kids. Maybe that’s what it is. No.

Rhona Eskander: You’re making a black mark. [00:31:00] Again?

Sarita Stephanie: It’s personal reason, [00:31:05] but at the end of the day, like 50% of the equation is the men. You know, like, [00:31:10] so like of people going through IVF treatment and 1 in 6 couples as fertility problems [00:31:15] for the man or the woman, 1 in 6. So it’s a big number.

Payman Langroudi: The people who go [00:31:20] for IVF treatment, what percentage of them are successful in having a kid?

Sarita Stephanie: It really depends. Is it.

Payman Langroudi: Low? [00:31:25]

Sarita Stephanie: It depends on the age, uh, of like, uh, both of the couples [00:31:30] independence from a lot of factors. I can tell you that regarding egg [00:31:35] freezing, the success rate is widely dependent on the age of the [00:31:40] woman. So, like, egg freezing is just a woman freezing their eggs. So we have built, actually in [00:31:45] America, a fertility calculator for for the woman. And for example, [00:31:50] like if we take Kim, Kourtney Kardashian, she froze her eggs at 39 and [00:31:55] she had seven eggs.

Rhona Eskander: Can I just interject then? This is what I always say. I froze my eggs at 32 [00:32:00] and I got 19 healthy eggs in one go. Got 18 when my friend. Exactly. [00:32:05] So look. And our age was then when my friends freeze at 3839. Bumped [00:32:10] into someone the other day. Dentist. She’s 38 and she said to me, I just froze my eggs because it was horrific [00:32:15] and I only got six eggs. So the younger you do it, the younger freeze the quality and [00:32:20] the quantity is better when you do it younger. Sad truth. But tell me about.

Payman Langroudi: The actual process, [00:32:25] the treatment.

Rhona Eskander: Well, let’s just finish. Yeah, yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: So like if we take, we build [00:32:30] this in in families, you find this calculator that we built based on [00:32:35] historical data from one of the clinic we work with. So like this is like, backed [00:32:40] by 2000 cycles, even more than a thousand cycles of egg freezing. So [00:32:45] like if, for example, Kourtney Kardashian has mentioned she froze her eggs [00:32:50] of 39 and she got seven eggs and she was not able [00:32:55] to have a live birth after her exam, fortunately.

Rhona Eskander: So Kourtney Kardashian froze her [00:33:00] eggs at 39, but she didn’t end up using her frozen eggs. It wasn’t successful. [00:33:05] Did it have anything to do with her age?

Sarita Stephanie: Yes it did, and her chances of success [00:33:10] were 29% if she had frozen or eggs. At 32 years old, [00:33:15] her chances of success were 60%. At 30 years old, 80%. [00:33:20] So age is a massive factor for live births. How do you.

Payman Langroudi: Know [00:33:25] about Kourtney Kardashian’s numbers of actors?

Rhona Eskander: Well, I think according I think their website does have [00:33:30] a fertility calculator. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the fertility calculator and how you created it? Yes. [00:33:35]

Sarita Stephanie: So we created this fertility calculator based on thousands of cycle with one of our [00:33:40] partner clinic. So based on the age you should freeze [00:33:45] a minimum of 15 eggs. For example, on average women freeze [00:33:50] 9.5 eggs, which is not enough to have a successful [00:33:55] live birth depending on your age.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s talk about this, right? Because even my dad said to me, he [00:34:00] was like, if you’re not going to have children soon, we need to do another cycle. And I was like, listen, we don’t need to [00:34:05] do another cycle. So with my 19 eggs, in theory, how many [00:34:10] rounds could I have? Now you have.

Sarita Stephanie: A live birth out of your eggs at 32 for sure. Yeah, you have [00:34:15] like 80%.

Rhona Eskander: So now let’s say I have problems. Let’s just say like I’m a use by date.

Payman Langroudi: Like do [00:34:20] they.

Rhona Eskander: Hilarious. Did you hear that? Is there an expiry date on the eggs.

Sarita Stephanie: That you can store [00:34:25] them for 55 years? Storage?

Payman Langroudi: Five years?

Rhona Eskander: I have to pay storage just by, you know, like [00:34:30] every year. But my question for you is this. So if now let’s say I have a problem conceiving, [00:34:35] which could happen, it’s the reality. I’m 37 and I decide to use the eggs. [00:34:40] What’s the what would be like the chances? I know you’re saying you’ll definitely get alive, [00:34:45] but what would the statistics show? Like how many eggs should be stored to [00:34:50] ensure that you have a good chance of one live birth?

Sarita Stephanie: We start at 32 [00:34:55] with 19 eggs. You have 95% chance of a live birth. If you want [00:35:00] two kids, 81% chance of having two kids, two live births. Okay, [00:35:05] so if you if you’re 32 and you have only five eggs, you will still have 50% [00:35:10] chance of success. Based on our fertility calculator, which is show [00:35:15] the biggest impact on age when you go and freeze your eggs.

Rhona Eskander: So my other question for you is is [00:35:20] there a difference in quality?

Sarita Stephanie: Of course, when you’re younger you call the quality of the egg is higher. [00:35:25] When you get over 35, the quality deteriorates.

Rhona Eskander: I think also [00:35:30] what I find quite difficult is there’s also and again, I’m making a judgement that a lot of [00:35:35] women struggle with the concept of freezing their eggs at like 30 because they’re like, I’m going to meet someone [00:35:40] in the next five years, of course I’m going to meet someone. And they almost and they almost, [00:35:45] they almost don’t want to put a like stigma on themselves, do you know what I mean? And [00:35:50] then they reach 38 and they’re like, I still haven’t met that person. And then that’s when it becomes [00:35:55] more challenging and then it pushes them to freeze, and it’s almost like it’s not too late. Some people do it and they’re [00:36:00] fine. But your chances? It’s an insurance policy, and your chances of getting healthier [00:36:05] eggs and a better quantity and quality is better when you’re younger. Yeah, that’s [00:36:10] for sure.

Sarita Stephanie: Like age is a is a big factor. You have to consider. Another thing we talk about before [00:36:15] a lot about the stress of freezing the eggs and the journey that it can, I.

Rhona Eskander: Hate it, [00:36:20] I was so sick afterwards. Here we go.

Sarita Stephanie: For me was the same. Actually, I didn’t feel too [00:36:25] sick during the journey, but afterwards it was not cool. Like I was not feeling [00:36:30] fantastic, you know? Like it was like more the week after. I was like very heavy, [00:36:35] very tired, bloated. It was not fun at all. But, you know, still it there. [00:36:40] It could obviously, you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I like you was already in a committed [00:36:45] relationship, but I was very focussed on my career and I was just felt that I wasn’t ready. Went on the recommendation [00:36:50] of my dad. I found it very empowering going for the scans and looking at my hormones. My [00:36:55] AMH was 12, so I was like on the very low end of healthy. So not like awful because I’ve [00:37:00] met friends of mine. Today I bumped into a friend of mine that’s been doing IVF for like three years, and her AMH [00:37:05] was like 0.7 or something. So it’s super, super low. And we looked [00:37:10] at like the different sides of the ovaries, etc.. And I found it really empowering knowing my numbers, [00:37:15] because I just feel like you’ve got the knowledge to know where you’re at. And then, like you, I had to [00:37:20] do the injections, work in between. Found it fine. I’m a fairly, fairly healthy person. The day they took [00:37:25] the eggs, fine. And then the next day, like the symptoms started coming up, I was really emotional. I [00:37:30] put on eight kilos. I. Can you believe it? Really? Wow. Afterwards, I don’t know when my stomach [00:37:35] was like this, like, can you imagine? And like going from having, like a flat stomach. It was really like it really damaged my [00:37:40] mental health as well, the way that I looked and felt etc. and then I actually caught Covid two weeks [00:37:45] later. So all of those symptoms made me feel a lot worse. It’s not for the light hearted. It’s [00:37:50] not like, hey, I’m just going to go and like, freeze my eggs. I think you’ve got to consider all these factors.

Payman Langroudi: How much [00:37:55] does it cost?

Sarita Stephanie: Exactly? And then another thing that I want to say is that cost, [00:38:00] it’s a big factor affecting also this anxiousness that you have because the [00:38:05] treatment is not cheap. One cycle in London is between 5500 [00:38:10] pounds to £6,000 one cycle. Considering. Again, depending [00:38:15] on your age, you need a number of eggs, depending [00:38:20] on your age, to be sure that you will have a live birth right? So you maybe have to do multiple cycles [00:38:25] depending on your age level, your age, and so on. So, you know, like it’s really [00:38:30] a game of doing it many times and getting as many eggs as you can [00:38:35] to be sure that you have a live birth, but it can go up to £10,000, £12,000 [00:38:40] per cycle.

Rhona Eskander: So imagine how many cycles you’ve got to do. So one thing I’m [00:38:45] going to say is there’s a little bit of criticism. There’s an incredible doctor influencer. I think [00:38:50] she’s got a million followers. She’s amazing. And she basically did a one year memory [00:38:55] reel about her egg freezing, which she did. And then she had to, like, put all of these warnings on [00:39:00] there to be like, I know that I’m in a place of extreme privilege, because what I was seeing was, is that [00:39:05] people were trolling her to be like, this is an extremely privileged thing to do to freeze [00:39:10] your eggs. And, you know, she obviously recognises that. Now, does amylase help [00:39:15] women that feel that they can’t afford it? What financial support do you provide? [00:39:20] What have you got to say for people that are like, I can barely feed myself, let alone freeze my eggs? My sister [00:39:25] definitely couldn’t afford it. The only reason she could do it is because of my dad.

Sarita Stephanie: Wonderful point. [00:39:30] So we are launching something like, I’m not going to say I’m not going to do [00:39:35] a spoiler alert because this is happening in the next quarter. We work very hard [00:39:40] to make sure that we open up the market with a possibility for women [00:39:45] to pay their treatment. So we’re going to really, like, be the game changers [00:39:50] in this space, because we’re going to offer this option that nobody does out there, and [00:39:55] we’re going to make the treatment affordable for women that can’t pay five, 5500 [00:40:00] pounds. So this is coming. Something else that we do today [00:40:05] is go out there like if clinics unfortunately, you know, like they have to charge [00:40:10] for their bit more for their scan and their test and they have a fertility package. [00:40:15] If you have a fertility test with us, for example, you get to pay £50. [00:40:20] £50 is pretty accessible. And this is part of our mission to make only [00:40:25] even the testing affordable. So that’s a big mission that we have. And [00:40:30] just to.

Rhona Eskander: Interject, Payman, just so you don’t know, the testing itself could cost a few hundred pounds.

Sarita Stephanie: Alone, could cost [00:40:35] like £250. And something else that we do is like get the like get to speak [00:40:40] with one of our specialists at the clinics. If this bag freezing is at the top of your [00:40:45] mind or at the back of your mind, and you know, like these people, they offer their time also [00:40:50] for free because they want to raise awareness out there. So that’s something that [00:40:55] we are our mission to make the treatment more affordable. But yeah, something that I, for example, [00:41:00] that I spend a lot of money at the beginning of my journey was understanding which clinic I wanted [00:41:05] to go to, which is something that, you know, like also why we built Emily’s to give the possibility [00:41:10] to women to get to speak to two different, uh, clinic, for [00:41:15] example, understand? Okay, have more connection with this doctor. I’m going to I want to do this treatment [00:41:20] with this doctor rather than this other doctor. And, you know, like, this is like all the clinics in London [00:41:25] that are approved by the HIV Aids are wonderful clinic. It’s just a matter of feelings of like, okay, [00:41:30] I like more, uh, doctor this rather than doctor because I feel more [00:41:35] comfortable and it’s fair, you know, like or I don’t know, I’m Italian, for example. And I was [00:41:40] very stuck in my mind that I wanted a Spanish doctor. Yeah. You know, so I was looking [00:41:45] around like, okay, do you have a Spanish doctor that I can arrange? My woman, woman Spanish doctor [00:41:50] that I can freeze my eggs with? And I know I was speaking with an English person or whatever. No, [00:41:55] no, no offence, but I was like, okay, I want a Spanish doctor. So I was going around and, you know, like shop [00:42:00] around clinics, but every time you spend £250, £300 and I spend like thousands [00:42:05] just trying to find my doctor and families, you can find your doctor for free. [00:42:10] So essentially it’s a.

Rhona Eskander: Platform that helps educate, connect and just helps make the process much easier, [00:42:15] which I think is absolutely like pivotal because a lot of people find it really challenging. [00:42:20] Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think all of healthcare is difficult. More difficult [00:42:25] than we realise are difficult. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And people think the NHS is so accessible. [00:42:30] It’s so not.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s say we’ve got friends who are doctors [00:42:35] left, right and centre I mean we. Yeah of course dental school and, you know, um, family [00:42:40] member was having an operation. I had access to doctors in that field right [00:42:45] at the top of that field. And yet there were times where you felt in the dark, you didn’t [00:42:50] know what was, what complication was going on or whatever. So in this situation where [00:42:55] it’s so emotive as well. Yeah, you can imagine how it’s so necessary.

Sarita Stephanie: I mean, the Hfea, [00:43:00] which is the regulatory entity in this country for fertility clinics and the fertility [00:43:05] space, they recently published numbers saying that the very [00:43:10] few couples qualify. Few heterosexual couples and same sex couples [00:43:15] qualify for NHS funding to go through fertility treatments. And I think [00:43:20] the rate of accessibility from the NHS for the NHS for [00:43:25] the dropped -17% in England, 36% in [00:43:30] Wales and like minus one in Scotland. So, you know, like accessibility to fertility [00:43:35] treatment for the NHS has dropped drastically. But people in fertility treatment are increasing, [00:43:40] which means like that. People are going above and beyond to try to find money to become [00:43:45] parents. And this is like this is number from the regulatory entity [00:43:50] of the facility space. Tell us a.

Payman Langroudi: Little bit more about the entrepreneur journey for you. Yeah, [00:43:55] because I remember the first time we met in Edinburgh, you were just in [00:44:00] the incubator. You just started in the incubator.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, we really want to know because I actually was going to ask you, Sarita, [00:44:05] I’m going to ask you now live in front of, like, our 10,000 listeners or whatever it is. Am I allowed to do, come and spend [00:44:10] the day at work with you? Because I want to come and learn from you, like, genuinely, of course, because I find, [00:44:15] you know, one thing Sarita said to me, like she supported me from day one and she was like, I’ll never support [00:44:20] businesses that actually, like, get rid of women or treat women badly. And she’s been like a huge kind of [00:44:25] like cheerleader and support for me in the background of things. And I find it really. Inspiring the way she’s done [00:44:30] this. And I think a lot of people would like to know, like, first of all, like leaving a corporate job, starting on your [00:44:35] own fundraising, etc.. So tell us a bit about that.

Sarita Stephanie: So I was in the incubator when you met me, and [00:44:40] that really helped me to quit my job because, you know, like, I mean, what.

Rhona Eskander: Is an incubator? [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s Start-Up incubator. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Explain. What does it mean.

Sarita Stephanie: They help you [00:44:50] coming up with an MVP, you meet other minimum viable. Like how do you.

Rhona Eskander: Find [00:44:55] an incubator like.

Payman Langroudi: Incubators.

Rhona Eskander: Are you just Google it.

Sarita Stephanie: There are a few around London. [00:45:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So Y Combinator is the most famous one.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine.

Sarita Stephanie: Loads of like, uh, for example, [00:45:05] Entrepreneur First is an incubator and they’re very big in the health care space. For example, they have a lot of [00:45:10] doctors, dentists that build like companies through entrepreneurs. First [00:45:15] they wanted it was not this one was another one. But basically they help you [00:45:20] having an idea on what you need to build a Start-Up. Right? And also like they help you [00:45:25] with connection. You can meet your co-founder there if you want. If you don’t have for example, [00:45:30] like a network of founders around you and they tell you, okay, pick somebody that has complementary [00:45:35] skills to you and all these kind of things. Essentially, they help you like understanding [00:45:40] the business model, what investors are looking for, building a pitch deck that you know is appealing to [00:45:45] investors. So all of these sort of kind of things. So I finished it, I finished the incubator. [00:45:50] And then from there, you know, like I was still trying to understand what which [00:45:55] direction to take with the company because at the beginning it was like Fertility Road. And I was alone [00:46:00] because I didn’t meet my co-founder during this process. So then I did a bit of research [00:46:05] and a friend name dropped Yasmin, my actual co-founder. [00:46:10] So like I brought to her, she helped me like build an MVP. And then actually [00:46:15] at the beginning, also at the beginning of the journey, I was partnering with somebody else. Unfortunately, you know, like our, [00:46:20] uh, direction were a bit taken different. We were taking a bit different direction. So we [00:46:25] I departed from him. Obviously we’re still on good terms. And then I got into [00:46:30] more working with Yasmin full time. She quit her job, and now we are obviously [00:46:35] co-founders.

Payman Langroudi: Um, MVP, minimum viable product.

Sarita Stephanie: Minimum viable product. Yes. So [00:46:40] we had the she built Yasmin build our minimum viable product, which means, [00:46:45] you know, like that women were able to go into like sort of a platform [00:46:50] booking their chat with the doctors and everything, you know, like just to validate our [00:46:55] concept and idea and that obviously, like today we’re way bigger than that. But, uh, [00:47:00] at the beginning, you know, like it was just, uh, to see if actually there was a need in the market, a minimum viable [00:47:05] product to see people were booking through it and the clinic were using it. So there was like, [00:47:10] um, it’s a very important process before you build a product and you pull [00:47:15] resources, you see if you have traction in the market, which is like the base of building [00:47:20] a Start-Up, essentially. So after that, we did that, we decided that we needed funding [00:47:25] for marketing. Be out there more, you know, like into you can’t just do everything. So we need [00:47:30] also like to hire some people, a marketing person and so on. So we went out there and did fundraising [00:47:35] and uh, I actually was pregnant during fundraising. So [00:47:40] yeah, I got pregnant and it was December that I got pregnant. [00:47:45] And in January we started conversation for fundraising. So in March, it was official [00:47:50] actually, that, you know, like I was February March, it was official that I was pregnant. And, you know, like I started [00:47:55] sharing it with the team and everybody. And at the beginning, I was not telling any investor [00:48:00] that I was pregnant because I was scared. Um, I was scared that somebody would [00:48:05] like, judged or, you know, like that somebody could be like, oh, this woman is not is gonna have, uh, and [00:48:10] I’m quoting one investor. This woman is going to have it as a hobby [00:48:15] rather than a company, because now she’s going to have a baby. And I received this comment, [00:48:20] you know, like, so this is like this real, real, real comment I received from an [00:48:25] investor. Like, I’m like, you make sure you send everyone to be.

Payman Langroudi: Honest, be honest, be [00:48:30] honest. Yeah, yeah. If, if, if a, if a receptionist practice manager [00:48:35] job was going at your practice and someone came and said. I want the shot. But [00:48:40] I’m pregnant. I was afraid it would affect you, would affect you, would affect you would. It would affect you.

Rhona Eskander: But [00:48:45] listen. Have you seen. I don’t even think about it. Um, Payman. Because all of my, you know, the [00:48:50] first of all, my team, which, by the way, I’ve had TV channels approach me for this. Absolutely [00:48:55] love the diversity in my team. I have had diversity because I do not discriminate. You were going. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: To hire someone who was going to be away very soon. That’s kind of what the investor is saying in a way. [00:49:05] I hear you, I hear you.

Sarita Stephanie: I actually will hire her just because you take. [00:49:10]

Payman Langroudi: Money from men.

Sarita Stephanie: From women. I actually.

Rhona Eskander: Mandate.

Sarita Stephanie: Pregnant [00:49:15] women out there. You can come to Emily’s and I will hire you. Yeah, okay.

Rhona Eskander: Chelsea Dental don’t [00:49:20] apply to enlighten me. I will hire.

Sarita Stephanie: You. But, you [00:49:25] know, like, so, like that’s the reality. This is, you know, also, the UK government [00:49:30] pays you for the salary that a pregnant woman is out. So, you know, like [00:49:35] this country is not bad for on this for pregnancy and [00:49:40] stuff. They don’t pay you like probably so much. But you know like a company is receive incentive [00:49:45] from the UK government when a woman is out for pregnancy and ultimately ultimately [00:49:50] pregnant women are doing a favour to the humanity to keep the the humanity [00:49:55] going because we are becoming infertile. This is a.

Payman Langroudi: Crisis right now.

Rhona Eskander: Can I ask? Yeah, so that’s a good point, [00:50:00] actually. Um, isn’t it becoming a crisis now because less women are having [00:50:05] children? And do you think that’s because of choice? And is it? But surely this is just a problem in the Western world, right. Because I’m assuming [00:50:10] places like India and Africa, like people are still having lots of children? No.

Sarita Stephanie: Well, average age [00:50:15] of women having kids is increasing every day in the [00:50:20] Western world is 31 years old for a woman and also 30 for a man. So it’s not like [00:50:25] that’s 20s in my point.

Payman Langroudi: Because the average age is going up in average. Yeah, fewer [00:50:30] people are having as many children I see. So for that reason. Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: Also I cost of [00:50:35] living and societal pressures all like you know there’s.

Rhona Eskander: There’s it’s really interesting because [00:50:40] I’m seeing more and more women and like really like strong, powerful, beautiful women. One [00:50:45] I’m thinking of like she’s stunning. So like what you think is stunning. Like this beautiful, beautiful, [00:50:50] beautiful. Um, she’s this, uh, Russian influencer. And she basically [00:50:55] came out there and, like, her TikTok was like, I don’t want to have kids, and I’ve never wanted [00:51:00] to have kids. And she’s actually an only child, and she talks about the fact that she doesn’t want children. And [00:51:05] the comments are like some of the comments, they’re like, oh, save this video so that you’re crying yourself [00:51:10] to bed when you’re like 39 years old and your life has no purpose. But what’s most perplexing [00:51:15] about it, just wait for it, is that other women, especially the women that have children, [00:51:20] troll her being like, I have three children. It’s my whole purpose in life. And I’m like, that’s [00:51:25] great. But not everybody wants to follow the same journey. But again, like, people don’t [00:51:30] give space. And then there were other women that were jumping in and saying, I’m 45. I decided [00:51:35] not to have them in my 30s and I’ve never regretted the decision. Does that make sense? And I think it’s like, interesting [00:51:40] how also more and more women are saying just because I can have children doesn’t mean I want to [00:51:45] now.

Sarita Stephanie: But also I want to. Going back to the point. So would you rather [00:51:50] not hire somebody that is super qualified and be out of work for like six [00:51:55] months and hire somebody else? That’s then average? Yeah, that is, I [00:52:00] don’t know, less qualified or average that will go above and beyond in the job just because it’s [00:52:05] just hiring someone you need.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you need someone at that point when you’re.

Sarita Stephanie: Saying, okay, you can find a replacement for [00:52:10] six months. There are a lot of people out there that can find a replacement for six months. It would be a bit more costly, but you won’t make [00:52:15] a huge a huge impact on the society.

Payman Langroudi: You just said you’re not going to hire men.

Sarita Stephanie: Yeah, [00:52:20] I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not going to super qualified, super qualified.

Sarita Stephanie: For the job.

Rhona Eskander: Take money from a man. As [00:52:25] he said.

Sarita Stephanie: Um, I’m going to hire a man. A certain point, not in the [00:52:30] executive team, I’m sorry, not in the executive team.

Payman Langroudi: Super qualified for the job.

Sarita Stephanie: Well, [00:52:35] I haven’t met any yet. Also that are so that knows [00:52:40] the process of egg freezing yet. We have on the board doctors gynaecologists. There are men [00:52:45] respect my dad. So yes we have doctors that are male but you know like that’s [00:52:50] a different kind of, uh, doctors. Yeah, there’s a different kind of a [00:52:55] doctor. I will hire a doctor, a male doctor. We haven’t received any application yet. But, you know, [00:53:00] in terms of business wise, like a head of marketing or a CMO, no chances [00:53:05] we were going to hire a man. But because also there’s an emphasis [00:53:10] on women and so on, like. So it’s the face of of Amelia’s [00:53:15] head of marketing. It does make a lot of sense. Tourism is a is a woman. [00:53:20] So, you know, like, yeah, we’re doing positive bias on this for sure. We’re going to hire a man, [00:53:25] but maybe for other job, maybe as uh, in the finance department when we build one [00:53:30] for sure. Uh, we have a lot of men in the as a gynaecologist in the board. [00:53:35] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Tell us about the business model. So you take the money from the clinic?

Sarita Stephanie: Yes. Then we charge [00:53:40] clinics. It’s, uh, only the. Yeah, we just basically charge clinics [00:53:45] because for the patients is the process is all free.

Payman Langroudi: And where are you at as far [00:53:50] as funding? Yeah. Runway. Yeah. Stability.

Sarita Stephanie: So like I was mentioning, sorry I didn’t [00:53:55] finish my conversation on the fundraiser. So we did the fund raise while I was pregnant. [00:54:00] At the end of the day, we had this, uh, our lead investor is Ascension is [00:54:05] a venture capital firm that I really like, and [00:54:10] they are great supporters. Also like, when I like, actually met them when [00:54:15] I was pregnant and they couldn’t give a list back that I was pregnant. You know, like the guy that, like, all the [00:54:20] team believed, like they didn’t even notice, you know, like. And that’s how it should be, you know, like, we should [00:54:25] normalise this, you know, like, it’s gonna, like, eventually a woman has the possibility [00:54:30] or maybe, of course, to, to carry a child. We know it. That’s [00:54:35] it is 50% of the population. Let’s just go through it, you know, like it’s like how it is. It’s how it [00:54:40] is. So they are our lead investor. And the rest of the investment we’re seeing, which was in total [00:54:45] our pre-seed round, 650,000. They were angels, friends and family. [00:54:50] And our board of investors is voluntarily 50% women, 50% men. [00:54:55] And we felt very like I really felt very high for it because [00:55:00] I wanted to have women on, on in the investment team. Now [00:55:05] we’re raising a seed round and we’re [00:55:10] raising in region to 4 to 5 million. This will be for [00:55:15] expansion, geographical expansion out of the UK. And this will also be to be [00:55:20] able to implement new features, for example, the one that we’re launching, uh, to [00:55:25] integrate with our platform, the tech team and so on. So it will be a lot of other services [00:55:30] we’re gonna use to make the treatment more widespread and fertility, um, testing [00:55:35] also more, uh, accessible.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think your finance background helped [00:55:40] you run a business? Because that’s what I hear, you know, and I think, like a lot of dentists recently [00:55:45] have been going into, like, the more entrepreneurial space, [00:55:50] um, not talking about running practices per se, but, you know, doing things that are different, like more and more people are doing things like [00:55:55] The Apprentice, like, do you know, I mean, they want to be doing like these different things, but I actually think [00:56:00] that sometimes they’re totally lost on what to do because dentistry is like running [00:56:05] a practice is very different from like having a Start-Up. I think that and I hear a lot of your [00:56:10] like, finance brain kind of like really helping you. And I’m sure that you’re one of the strongest [00:56:15] on your team at, you know, doing all the investment, raising etc. side of things.

Sarita Stephanie: Yeah, [00:56:20] I’m, I, I’m currently the chief executive officer of office in [00:56:25] Amelia. So I do all the commercial side fundraising numbers and stuff, even [00:56:30] though I hate numbers. Like it’s not really, but I’m very quick in assessing [00:56:35] things, you know?

Rhona Eskander: So it’s like y’all got some. Sure. Because of like the background.

Sarita Stephanie: It’s natural, you know, like [00:56:40] it comes like, you know, like if you give me something, I, I just look at it and I know what we [00:56:45] have to do. I want to do it. It’s boring. I don’t like it, but I know what [00:56:50] to do, you know, like, so that’s how it is. And now Yasmin does all the product and technical [00:56:55] bits, coding, all that sort of thing. Which is she a developer? She’s [00:57:00] a developer.

Payman Langroudi: In that pre-seed round. How many people did you have to see before someone made [00:57:05] an investment?

Sarita Stephanie: We received like, uh, maybe 200 rejections from [00:57:10] a venture capital? Yeah, yeah, from VCs or and then [00:57:15] individuals as similar. So you [00:57:20] have to be very strong. I mean, like, I’m like, okay. Like I remember one day we like, [00:57:25] in, uh, the busy times, we were like in like eight calls per day with investors. [00:57:30] And you are back to back, back to back repeating the same thing. And you have to be convincing and all of that [00:57:35] and, you know, like, you know, immediately who’s gonna invest or not. You know, like it’s just, you know it because, [00:57:40] you know, like somebody that shows an interest, they will follow up very quickly. And [00:57:45] even, you know, like when we received the offer from Ascension, they didn’t take so much time to invest, [00:57:50] you know, like they saw potential, you know, like pre-seed, you know, we were we are [00:57:55] just at the beginning. Right. So you see, okay, there are two badass women co-founders, [00:58:00] you know, one is going to do the commercial, the other is technical. They both have experience. [00:58:05] I work in the healthcare space now in the big data for a long time. So she knows what [00:58:10] she’s doing. The other one working in the healthcare space, building product for patients. She knows [00:58:15] what she’s doing. Somewhere the company is going to go.

Payman Langroudi: So are you even at that point? Are [00:58:20] you selling the billion dollar global domination 100%. So bigger plan [00:58:25] as you can, right?

Sarita Stephanie: Yeah. So basically one thing that I like, one piece of feedback [00:58:30] that I received from a great investor in a big VC, [00:58:35] she said, you know, when you present. Your market like [00:58:40] some some time and all of these kind of things. When you present your slide with how [00:58:45] big is the market? I want to see a huge number. They’re like [00:58:50] huge, huge. Like do everything you have to do to make that [00:58:55] that number so huge that I’m like, look at it. And I’m like, whoa, [00:59:00] I have to invest in this space. It maybe it’s not like not even the company, but like, [00:59:05] this space is so big. So did you find.

Payman Langroudi: That you had to pivot a few times before you got to [00:59:10] the. Yes, the the final product 100%.

Sarita Stephanie: I actually had to calculate [00:59:15] how big was the market. How big is it, 377 billions [00:59:20] by myself.

Payman Langroudi: In order to make that [00:59:25] pitch right?

Sarita Stephanie: You know. Exactly. You know, like 300%.

Rhona Eskander: So I want to spend the day with her at work, come to work with Teresa, [00:59:30] go on.

Sarita Stephanie: Like a look at studies, looking at how much [00:59:35] time women waste. Waste, I mean, like they take out of [00:59:40] work and how much it costs for a company to go and do their fertility check-up, gynaecologist [00:59:45] visit, IVF treatment, fertility treatments and so on. How much that burden in [00:59:50] the society and for like corporates out there. So I had to calculate that manually because [00:59:55] I found all the numbers and then, you know, like you have to apply globally and all of that, those kind of things [01:00:00] to see, you know, it’s huge. The number like the cost that I’m like, [01:00:05] I don’t know, I’m going to a gynaecologist appointment. So I’m wasting four hours of my time and I take [01:00:10] four hours out of work for my company. That’s a huge loss. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: And there must be a competitor. Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: So we have [01:00:20] of course we have some competitors, which is good.

Payman Langroudi: Are they based here or.

Sarita Stephanie: Yes, [01:00:25] they are based here. There are some companies that we look at. For example, they have an amazing branding [01:00:30] and we respect their mission. And nobody that is really focussed only on egg freezing. [01:00:35] They’re more like or testing of or fertility treatments or IVF or, you know, [01:00:40] financing all of that. But there are some companies that we look at very much for [01:00:45] what they’re doing in the fertility space. Ultimately, we look up at everybody to be fair, [01:00:50] because, you know, like competition is always healthy to have keeps you on the toes and [01:00:55] push you. But yeah, I think like we’re quite unique in our message and the way we, we carry [01:01:00] things.

Payman Langroudi: And your proposition to the clinic is that based on like a exclusive [01:01:05] relationship that you.

Sarita Stephanie: So at the moment we have of course we have contracts [01:01:10] with the clinics. It’s most likely they work with a clinics that we partner [01:01:15] with. They work with other apps, for example, or they work with other employment [01:01:20] benefit platform. They offer fertility, so they work with other bits and pieces. But it’s still [01:01:25] like in the big fertility space rather than just online freezing. We are very [01:01:30] specific on that, and I do believe that we are the only one around. They’re very open, to [01:01:35] be honest clinics. Who’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Person who’s actually going into the Portland and saying to.

Sarita Stephanie: Myself. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so so how do you know who to who to contact?

Rhona Eskander: And she’s [01:01:45] amazing. She, she’s literally like got her big black book. We asked her, I have a book, [01:01:50] I have a big black book.

Sarita Stephanie: I think she’s.

Rhona Eskander: Literally.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But I’m saying with the [01:01:55] the clinics.

Sarita Stephanie: Are with the clinics. That’s my blue book. I’m [01:02:00] joking. But yes, basically we don’t. So look, also part [01:02:05] of our proposition is that we reduce the decision fatigue for women to go [01:02:10] to. Like we don’t have all the clinics in London, we have few that we partner with, [01:02:15] and they’re the ones that wants to improve their communication with the patients, that they want to do a bit of different [01:02:20] things. The other day, Diana, our head of marketing and, um, another [01:02:25] person that works in the social media, they went to a clinic and they recorded a bit of [01:02:30] content. And, you know, like the doctors are happy about it. Some clinics, they don’t want to do this kind of work. Like [01:02:35] I.

Rhona Eskander: Think my facility academy that I did with my dad.

Sarita Stephanie: Is similar.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no, I [01:02:40] mean, I’m a social media queen. I mean, I could do it full time. Um, but the thing is, is, like with the fertility [01:02:45] academy, um, with my dad, like, they’re so not into that. Like, Gorgui is like a [01:02:50] very old school doctor, and, like, a few people messaged me and were like, where did you get it done? Because obviously I [01:02:55] had a YouTube video, which did really well because it talks about the whole process. And then I was like, listen, [01:03:00] I was like, Gorgui does not have like the bedside manner that you might want. Like he’s like very [01:03:05] scientific doctor. His results are very good with the egg freezing. But like you’re going there like, and you know, some people [01:03:10] said they want the compassion. They want the like, empathy they want. It’s like dentist, right? You could go to the best technical dentist, [01:03:15] but you’re like, if you want to get pandered to on the bedside or like, you know, really have those conversations, you’re not [01:03:20] going to get that. Do you see what I mean? I think different clinics are there for different reasons, you know. Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: You know, like so like the clinics [01:03:25] that we work with are the one that wants to they also understand that [01:03:30] demographic is changing, right? Women like my age. I’m now 35. But when I did [01:03:35] it I was 32. Women under 30s or even millennials. Now they’re working and they’re in [01:03:40] their 20s.

Rhona Eskander: Imagine like 25, 27.

Sarita Stephanie: They will check out.

Payman Langroudi: Based on the stats. That’s the right. [01:03:45] That’s the right thing to do. Right. Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: You know like so even like at this age, what [01:03:50] do you do is that you check a clinic on Instagram, on TikTok. If you don’t have a presence there, [01:03:55] almost. You don’t exist for some demographics. You know, some.

Rhona Eskander: Google like, you know, some.

Sarita Stephanie: Google, [01:04:00] you know. But Google reviews also like are completely out of it. How are you getting to the.

Payman Langroudi: Users, the [01:04:05] ladies? How are you getting to them?

Sarita Stephanie: So our traffic is mainly organic, meaning that [01:04:10] a woman uses. And then she tells all of her friends and all of her friends come or [01:04:15] we do.

Rhona Eskander: Like a word of mouth at the moment, more.

Sarita Stephanie: Word of mouth. We do a lot of events as well, you [01:04:20] know. Interesting. We try we tried ads in November, [01:04:25] uh, for a month, and we didn’t get the result. We wanted to. We get some traction, but [01:04:30] we didn’t get the result. We wanted to. We have, you know, like a women ambassador, for example, [01:04:35] was not.

Rhona Eskander: Meant to be an ambassador. Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: You should be one of our ambassadors. [01:04:40] You should. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, we actually had [01:04:45] a friend of mine, Sophie, that recorded her fertility.

Rhona Eskander: She was in Made in Chelsea. [01:04:50]

Sarita Stephanie: And made Sophie that made in Chelsea, you know, like we were talking [01:04:55] about one day she was like, I want to freeze my eggs. I’m like, okay, I’ll help you if you want. You know, like I’m [01:05:00] we families. So we talk about it and then, you know, like I said, I like she told me like, oh, I have [01:05:05] this clinic in my mind that I would like to go to. And I’m like, look, let me have a chat with them. Let’s see if they’re up to [01:05:10] also being recorded again. You mentioned some clinics. They don’t want to be part of this, you know, which [01:05:15] is okay. It’s fair, you know. But some others they see an opportunity of like reaching [01:05:20] a new demographic, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Is it going through the roof right now? Yes.

Sarita Stephanie: It’s freezing [01:05:25] as a.

Rhona Eskander: But my dad was talking about this 15 years ago. This is what I’m trying to say. And there was such a stigma. [01:05:30] And my dad was like, egg freezing is going to be massive. Like my dad has always been, like very visionary [01:05:35] in that sense. And now you go if you go on Instagram, people are talking [01:05:40] about Vicky Patterson was talking about it. She’s got 2 million followers. Sophie, as you said, was talking about [01:05:45] it. The doctor. There’s so many people.

Payman Langroudi: Point of view in terms of product [01:05:50] market fit. Like if she if she was in the app. Now at the time that your dad was mentioning [01:05:55] it.

Sarita Stephanie: It was a bit early.

Rhona Eskander: A bit early.

Sarita Stephanie: It was early. It was early and you know, like, yeah, there’s [01:06:00] a there’s a time for it. So if you look at what the HPA stats [01:06:05] said in 2021, we had the 4200 [01:06:10] cycle, which was a 64% increase of [01:06:15] two years before.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Sarita Stephanie: And this is out of the pocket. Right. [01:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: So that’s one that’s the one you want to put into your pitch deck.

Sarita Stephanie: You’re [01:06:25] not exist 64% increase in meaning that this treatment is paid [01:06:30] out of the pocket. Right. Because we discuss about the NHS and stuff unless unfortunately also like you have cancer, [01:06:35] they do not cover egg freezing. Yeah. Um, so this is a women that are out [01:06:40] of the pocket pay for their treatments.

Rhona Eskander: This is open. So fascinating. I feel like I’ve learned [01:06:45] so much. And I think this is going to be such a big help because I get messages on a weekly basis [01:06:50] about egg freezing, and now I can just refer them to this chat. Thank you so much, Sarita. [01:06:55] I’ve enjoyed every moment of it, and I think it’s been one of our more different [01:07:00] chats. Right? As in like it’s been like it’s been.

Payman Langroudi: Like a bit.

Rhona Eskander: Huh? Can we.

Payman Langroudi: Talk about me [01:07:05] or.

Rhona Eskander: Do you want to talk about your husband? Yeah, I’m happy to talk about my husband. I don’t have long, but. Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Tell [01:07:10] us about me. He’s a global Dental collective.

Sarita Stephanie: So my husband Mahi is doing [01:07:15] a wonderful job creating global Dental collective, which is a community [01:07:20] that is supporting dentists across the world, talking about different [01:07:25] things. For example, now he has an event coming up in April that will be with [01:07:30] my.

Rhona Eskander: Therapist.

Sarita Stephanie: With with Rhona’s therapist that is, uh, on [01:07:35] mental health. So talking about resilience, talking about [01:07:40] how you address stress and, you know, when you have a difficult case, a difficult patient, [01:07:45] do you show your ordinary ability to patients or not. So, you know, like or to your team. [01:07:50] So it’s going into the deep root of, you know, the profession that I’m sure you know better [01:07:55] than me guys. But he’s raising some important questions that, you know, like to support [01:08:00] dentists that will participate, for example. And he’s bringing up psychotherapists. [01:08:05] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So Ella’s a psychotherapist. She’s actually on our podcast as well.

Sarita Stephanie: Here we go. [01:08:10] So he’s bringing Ella to answer some questions and address how you should basically, [01:08:15] for example, be vulnerable in front of your patient. How much can you share? Uh, you know, [01:08:20] like, I’m pretty sure, you know, I always say that, you know, I think the job that [01:08:25] you do, guys, when a patient is out there and they just open their mouth, there’s a lot of energy [01:08:30] coming out and, you know, like, there’s so much energy you can take for [01:08:35] per day. So, you know, like, I feel like that, you know, like you. You have to become also like almost [01:08:40] psychotherapist yourself to address patients all the time.

Rhona Eskander: Well, the reason why Payman [01:08:45] and I started this podcast was exactly for that reason, because we recognised that dentists and dentistry [01:08:50] is such a demanding job, and that the energies that we have to take on, on a [01:08:55] daily basis within the profession is a lot. And I think that we really [01:09:00] undervalue ourselves sometimes, you know, because we are in that room, you know, you’re not in an office [01:09:05] environment. You’re literally in the room with like three people, most in one at one time. And [01:09:10] that’s intense every single day. And like when you’re ill or when you can’t be bothered, you still have to [01:09:15] talk. You still have to give, you know, to the patient and you still have to be on your A-game. So I think [01:09:20] that’s really important. And the mission that he has with Global Collective is amazing. So I’m looking but also like. [01:09:25]

Sarita Stephanie: Part of his mission at the end of the day is an artist. He’s a creative. Like he’s. Yeah, [01:09:30] exactly. You know, like he’s like reshaping how things are done [01:09:35] even for for events and conferences, you know, like how you present the content, [01:09:40] you know, like there’s a lot of work that also I can see looking the fertility space, there was so [01:09:45] little advancement in terms of like how to do things in a more [01:09:50] patient, friendly way or so on, or even like in this case, dentistry friendly way. [01:09:55] And, you know, like reshaping a bit like the discussion in the industry. I think it’s a very important [01:10:00] topic that is bringing up in the way he’s doing things in a theatrical way, a more [01:10:05] three dimensional way. Uh, experience is very important nowadays. How the perception, [01:10:10] you know, like when you walk in a space. Yeah, it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Just about to say space because that’s what my [01:10:15] sister redesigned my whole clinic. I will wait for you to come in.

Payman Langroudi: I just sort of just saw the windows. [01:10:20]

Rhona Eskander: And, um, my sister said to me, interestingly, that the space [01:10:25] the she said the the medical space is horrible. She has every time she’s an experience, a [01:10:30] dental or medical space. It has been so disconnected for the patient. And she has said that even [01:10:35] when dentists tries to do like Uber luxe clinics, she’s like, it still doesn’t feel good. And she said [01:10:40] that when she went for her fertility, her egg freezing, they actually had to stop the first time. She had a [01:10:45] very traumatic experience because they couldn’t sedate her properly, and she said that everything was so cold, [01:10:50] like the medical chair, the room. And she said that if that had failed the sedation and she was in a [01:10:55] better environment where she felt safe, the doctors and nurses made her feel safe. But it was just like the [01:11:00] space. She would have felt a lot better. And now when people come into my dental clinic because of the space that she’s [01:11:05] built with, like she’s, you know, created the space of almost like the human body, like [01:11:10] being like in kind of like sync and the different textures, colours. Exactly. [01:11:15] People come in and they’re like, I feel so calm. Imagine saying that when you come to a dental practice, that’s literally what [01:11:20] every patient says to hospital.

Payman Langroudi: But visiting someone, even the the most private hospitals. [01:11:25] Yeah, it feels awful. Still horrible. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it’s been lovely to have you. [01:11:30] Yeah. Thank you. I always keep up with, uh, what’s going on in your biz every time I talk to Mahi. But [01:11:35] he’s he’s he’s definitely, uh, the way he said it to me is with, uh, Sarita. One [01:11:40] plus one equals seven.

Rhona Eskander: I know she’s a force. You can see that. Yeah. [01:11:45] You’ve been amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And if anyone does want to have a look [01:11:50] at the website or your social media channels, could you please spell it out for them? Yeah.

Sarita Stephanie: So it’s [01:11:55] amelie’s a m I l I s co.uk perfect. [01:12:00]

Rhona Eskander: And then the Instagram handle is just Amelia Bartlett.

Sarita Stephanie: Perfect.

Rhona Eskander: All right, guys, thank you so much. [01:12:05] Take care.

Prav Solanki: It just wakes them up. Right? And this is the thing that the way I look at a CRM system, [00:00:05] it’s there to deal with the initial inquiry. It’s there to teach your team what to do [00:00:10] and when, and manage that flow of when to call them a second time, a third time or [00:00:15] fourth time. They shouldn’t have to send themselves set themselves tasks. The system should automatically [00:00:20] do that for you, so you don’t need to think when you’re using it. Push that to one side, mate. [00:00:25] What it should be doing is waking up your inquiries periodically, but on a one [00:00:30] by one basis rather than in in mass, right? So hey, Prav inquired [00:00:35] three months ago, send him the seven word email, perhaps not responded for [00:00:40] ten months. Send him the Break-Up email Prav hasn’t booked a consultation [00:00:45] yet. Ask him to send us a selfie of his teeth so that we can show [00:00:50] the dentist to give him some advice because he’s not quite ready to come in. But is he ready to send [00:00:55] us a photograph of his teeth? Let’s try that one. And then so many patients respond with their picture, [00:01:00] right? So they’re one step further to coming in, one step closer to coming.

[Voice]: This [00:01:05] is Dental Leaders, [00:01:10] the podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:01:15] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: Give [00:01:25] me great pleasure to welcome Prav Solanki onto the Dental [00:01:30] Leaders podcast. Some of you might have remembered Prav used to be used [00:01:35] to be a host on this on this show, but uh, once again, perhaps gone missing. And, uh, [00:01:40] lovely to welcome you back, my buddy.

Prav Solanki: Thanks, pal. It’s it’s a real pleasure and a real privilege to be invited [00:01:45] to this podcast and, uh, to be a guest on it. I’m a big fan. I listen [00:01:50] to it every week on my commute to work.

Payman Langroudi: Talking of commutes, um, once [00:01:55] again, I’ve been out and about, and the number of you that keep coming up to me and talking about your [00:02:00] commute, listening to Dental Leaders, it’s such a such a massive honour to know that you [00:02:05] choose to listen to a Dental podcast on your way to your practice. And once again, [00:02:10] we were saying, you know, not not, not everyone hates their job so much that they want to get away from it all [00:02:15] the time. So Prav where have you been?

Prav Solanki: Lucky to add to that, buddy. [00:02:20] You know, even though I’ve been missing in action. Um, even now, like, every time [00:02:25] we get a discovery call booked with a client and, you know, they’re interested in whatever marketing [00:02:30] services or whatever it is, we always ask, like, you know, how did you how did you come across? [00:02:35] And some people say, yeah, I follow you on social, but even that I go missing in action quite a lot, right? The [00:02:40] vast majority of people have heard an episode that resonated with them [00:02:45] or have listened to, have discovered me through the Dental Leaders podcast. Right? So, [00:02:50] um, it’s really nice to hear that the community are tuning in to the [00:02:55] podcast and, um, getting some value out of it and, and continue to do so right in my [00:03:00] absence.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like I like to hear that, but bearing in mind you’re never on so. [00:03:05] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki: So listen, I’ve got you to thank for this, mate, because [00:03:10] you’re doing all the hard graft and, um, and the intro says, uh, what does it say? Something like, [00:03:15] um, hosted by Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:03:20] Kiki. Kiki or something. Something like that. So, uh, it’s funny.

Payman Langroudi: Because now there’s a Payman [00:03:25] Langroudi on, um, uh, mind movers, you know? Posted [00:03:30] by Rohan Eskander and Payman Langroudi Didi. So [00:03:35] now I know how you feel. So where have you been, buddy? Where have you been?

Prav Solanki: What I’ve been busy doing. [00:03:40] And we’re going to make a pretty bold statement. Pay. I’ve been busy in the depths of creating [00:03:45] what is the best Dental CRM system in the world? [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: Crm, customer relationship management. So obviously I know all about CRM systems [00:03:55] because we run our business with the CRM system, a database essentially of [00:04:00] the state of customers and potential customers. And [00:04:05] in ours it goes, you know, I don’t know, lead prospect, lead [00:04:10] customer, and then great customer type thing. Um, how does that relate to a dental practice? [00:04:15] Explain that to me.

Prav Solanki: So in a dental practice, um, I think the way I look [00:04:20] at it and the way I’ve always looked at it, right, is that sales and marketing are [00:04:25] two things that need to be so intertwined that [00:04:30] employing a marketing agency to fix your business, or provide a silver [00:04:35] bullet to change your business is just the wrong way of looking at things. And [00:04:40] so what a CRM system does is it takes that inquiry, whether it’s come [00:04:45] from a website, a Facebook ad, a Google ad, any kind of marketing, and [00:04:50] amplifies the impact of that inquiry by following [00:04:55] or following up that patient in a way that elevates [00:05:00] conversion rate from inquiry to consultation, from [00:05:05] consultation to yes, from yes to completion of treatment [00:05:10] plan, from completion of treatment plan to multiplication. Google reviews, [00:05:15] Facebook reviews and referrals. Right. So it’s that end to end patient [00:05:20] journey. And in my mind, you know, whatever it is, a CRM system, whether [00:05:25] you pick something off the shelf like Pipedrive or HubSpot, and there’s [00:05:30] all these we’ve played with and used over the years. The biggest problem [00:05:35] that we found with them was the user experience, right? It’s a CRM system [00:05:40] should be developed for the end user, not the business owner, not [00:05:45] the business itself, but for the end user, which is the TCO, [00:05:50] the lead ninja, the receptionist, whoever is managing that flow of patient [00:05:55] inquiry right through to completion of treatment.

Payman Langroudi: I think one of the common difficulties [00:06:00] is that a lot of our team are enlightened. For instance, they live on the CRM [00:06:05] system. That is what they do. Whereas one of the difficulties in a dental practice [00:06:10] is getting the team to actually, you know, use it. Am [00:06:15] I right? And that’s where you’ve really been focusing in, right?

Prav Solanki: It is. And so the, [00:06:20] the, the CRM system that we’ve built, lead flow is a system that [00:06:25] is in it’s probably, I don’t know 30th version today as it holds [00:06:30] right. And so our first incarnation of it was actually in [00:06:35] my own practice in the Dental suite. And it was beta tested by a, by a whole bunch [00:06:40] of clients as well. Right. But the user experience was shit. Okay. [00:06:45] It was really bad. It was so bad that you needed to spend [00:06:50] a day training the team how to use it. Okay. And [00:06:55] then if a team member moved on or if another team member needed to jump on it because [00:07:00] somebody was off ill or on holiday or whatever, the whole lead management process [00:07:05] would become a nightmare, right? And that’s when we realised very early on that [00:07:10] this is about the user experience. And our whole aim was to [00:07:15] create a system that required zero training, that was so intuitive [00:07:20] that you log in and you know exactly what to do. Lead flow [00:07:25] tells you what to do. Call this patient. Call this patient for the second time. [00:07:30] Follow up this patient, ask the patient how their holiday was, etc., [00:07:35] etc.. Right. So that one of the biggest things is getting the team to use it and [00:07:40] what we, you know, the best and biggest feedback that we get from our clients [00:07:45] when they either move from another CRM system or nothing is [00:07:50] this makes life so much easier. And so the workflows and the [00:07:55] systems and processes that I’ve put into place and my own follow up process [00:08:00] that I believe every single patient inquiry should go through in terms [00:08:05] of follow up. And it’s my belief pay that every lead, [00:08:10] every inquiry, every new patient engagement that lands in your inbox, your [00:08:15] Google spreadsheet, wherever it goes. You should be following up that patient for a minimum of two [00:08:20] years.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy man. I mean, let’s, let’s let’s try and do [00:08:25] a, you know, side by side kind of analysis of what what things are like [00:08:30] sometimes when, when you get a new client or let’s go back to, you know, the times when, [00:08:35] you know, dentists weren’t using things like CRMs, how are things, what are things like? So [00:08:40] the scenarios I remember in dental practice, patient sends [00:08:45] an email, it may be gets answered the [00:08:50] next day or the day after. That was maybe the way I remember [00:08:55] it. No follow up of that. If the patient doesn’t come back, nothing [00:09:00] once in a while, you know, it was almost like you would get the patient despite [00:09:05] the practice rather than because of what the practice was doing. Talk me [00:09:10] through. You know what? What do you see out there when when someone starts using it? What were the mistakes [00:09:15] they were making and then how the software addresses all that.

Prav Solanki: So going [00:09:20] back to those early days pay where there was that okay, email may land like one of the [00:09:25] biggest things I’ve seen, right, is that all the inquiries are going into the junk folder. [00:09:30] Oh, God. And then, you know, lo and behold, a month later, two months later, six months later, we [00:09:35] find a ton of inquiries and junk that have gone unanswered. Right? I’ve seen that over the years. [00:09:40] Right. And it’s it’s one of those heart drop moments that when you see [00:09:45] that and you think, Crikey, what have we lost here? Yeah. But today, you [00:09:50] know, we’re all in competition hunting for these patients right through Google ads, Facebook [00:09:55] ads, organic search, whatever that may be, whatever your you’re investing in, right. [00:10:00] And when that inquiry lands like instant response [00:10:05] is insanely important. Right. So I’ll tell you what I see at the moment. The same. [00:10:10] So people are using sort of some CRM systems at the moment. The same auto responder goes out [00:10:15] to the patient. Right now, it doesn’t matter whether they’ve inquired about implants, ortho, [00:10:20] composite bonding, whatever it is, they get the same response auto responder, which is better than [00:10:25] nothing. Yeah. Which is better than nothing. Right.

Payman Langroudi: What does it typically say? Well, we’ll we’ll be in touch [00:10:30] soon sort of thing.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for your inquiry. We’re a practice that is, you [00:10:35] know, uh, centre of excellence in X, Y and Z. We offer [00:10:40] a complimentary consultation with a TCO. Um, a member of our team will call [00:10:45] you shortly and get you booked in. Maybe. You know, here’s a video about a patient journey, [00:10:50] whatever that.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. That’s that itself is is relatively uncommon. I mean, what [00:10:55] percentage would you say do that and what percentage was it just land on a dead email?

Prav Solanki: It’s [00:11:00] really hard, right? Because I don’t I don’t work with everyone. [00:11:05] Right. And I don’t see all the people.

Payman Langroudi: You’re dealing with or the people you do. Most of them have [00:11:10] auto responders.

Prav Solanki: Well, they do by the time I finish with them. Right? So no, no, when. [00:11:15]

Payman Langroudi: You find them, when you first find them.

Prav Solanki: Um, a lot of people we’re working with or we’re speaking [00:11:20] to right now have got some kind of autoresponder or CRM system in place because they [00:11:25] realise the value of whatever they’re pouring into ads. Yeah, they [00:11:30] need to amplify that. So it just makes complete sense to have something in place. [00:11:35] The majority of practices I’m speaking to at the moment have something in place, right? Okay. A [00:11:40] lot of them have CRMs where they’ve not set up the Autoresponders, so they’ve got [00:11:45] it, they’ve got the capability, but they’ve not set it up right. And that’s one of the challenges here at the moment. [00:11:50] Right, is that you get a system and um, someone [00:11:55] says, here’s how to set it all up and set up all the email reminders and all the rest of it and write your own [00:12:00] copy and do it. Press these buttons and off you go. And most practices won’t have the time, the headspace [00:12:05] or the energy to set all of that up, right. So they don’t. But they’ve got some kind of system [00:12:10] to tell their team members. Call this patient. Now set yourself a task. Drag them into [00:12:15] another folder already contacted once. Follow a traffic light system. Follow once. Follow [00:12:20] tithes. Follow three times. Patient is now discarded, right. Whatever [00:12:25] their process is. Yeah. And then on a more advanced level, like what [00:12:30] we like, we’ve got default, almost like what we’d say is a very [00:12:35] minimum level of communication that should happen is that whenever a patient inquires [00:12:40] at any point, they should get an SMS straight away and they should get an email straight away. [00:12:45]

Prav Solanki: The email and the SMS should be contextually relevant to the nature of their inquiry. So if they’ve [00:12:50] inquired about implants, the email follow up should talk about implants, their implant offering, what type of what [00:12:55] type of implant treatments they offer, who the surgeon is, and then is there a complimentary [00:13:00] consultation, a fully paid assessment, what the investment of that is and what the next process is. [00:13:05] But immediately they should get an SMS. And hey Prav, thanks for inquiring about implants. [00:13:10] This is Sarah from Kiss Dental and when’s a good time [00:13:15] to talk? Yeah, you get that SMS patients respond [00:13:20] to that SMS. And you know what’s insane is that when we first [00:13:25] set that auto responder up for SMS, patients were sending [00:13:30] inquiries at 9 p.m., 10 p.m., 11 p.m. at night, they’d get the SMS. [00:13:35] They thought that person was there sending that SMS, right? So then say, when’s [00:13:40] a good time to talk? Patients should respond and say now, 11 p.m. at night. But [00:13:45] it was an auto text, right? So then we got feedback from our clients [00:13:50] which basically said, hold on a minute. I’m really I feel really bad because patients [00:13:55] want me to ring them at midnight or 11 p.m. or 8 p.m. and we can’t, and it looks bad. [00:14:00] So then what we did is we set up the auto responder to say if [00:14:05] it’s outside of opening hours, so you set your opening hours in the system, send this text [00:14:10] message.

Prav Solanki: If it’s on a weekend, send this text message. If it’s within business hours, send [00:14:15] this text message. Wow. That’s so. Imagine an inquiry comes in at 11 p.m. at night and [00:14:20] it says, hey Prav, thanks for your inquiry about teeth straightening. When’s a good time to talk? [00:14:25] Instead of saying that, it will say this. Hey Prav, thanks for inquiring about [00:14:30] dental implants. The practice is now closed, but I’m sending you a quick message so we can [00:14:35] catch up tomorrow. I’m back in the practice from 9 a.m. when [00:14:40] would be a good time to talk? So now the patient responds and says, oh, can you ring [00:14:45] me? Say Monday at two or this time? And then the important thing is to re-engage with that [00:14:50] patient and send them another SMS and say, you know, when you get in the following day, I’m going to ring you at this time [00:14:55] because there was another mistake we found, right? Which was this patient responds saying, [00:15:00] call me tomorrow at two. Tco comes to me and says, hey, I tried to call this patient [00:15:05] at two. They didn’t pick up. I said, all right, what’s if I asked you [00:15:10] the same question? And I messaged you and said, hey, can you meet tomorrow [00:15:15] at two? And you don’t respond, do I expect you to turn up? There’s no confirmation. [00:15:20]

Prav Solanki: So when a patient says, can you call me tomorrow at two, it’s really important that you [00:15:25] set that. Diary date right that time and you sms them back [00:15:30] saying, yes, I’m going to call you at 2:05 tomorrow. Look forward to speaking. Just that little [00:15:35] nuance in texting them back, saying I will call you is the difference between getting [00:15:40] hold of that patient and not yeah, yeah. And it’s so many tiny little nuances [00:15:45] within the communication journey that we’ve learned, um, when working with [00:15:50] clients and building this system that have really taught us a lot about the art of follow up [00:15:55] and what’s important, what makes patients respond, you know, the subject line [00:16:00] in the emails that you send to them, the content of the emails that goes out [00:16:05] to them really, really important, and then the timing of it, right, to reach out to somebody, [00:16:10] let’s say, three months after their inquiry and just [00:16:15] say Prav dot dot dot in the subject line and then in the body. [00:16:20] Are you still interested in dental implants or teeth straightening or whatever? That [00:16:25] works so much better than an email that says, hey Prav, you inquired with us some time ago. I’ve [00:16:30] tried to email you. I’ve tried to reach you a few times. Here’s some case studies about dental implants. [00:16:35] La la la la la. Would you like to book a consultation?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the [00:16:40] short.

Prav Solanki: Email has so much more impact. Such a high conversion rate. Yeah. Massive huge. [00:16:45] And it just wakes them up. Right. And this is the thing that the way [00:16:50] I look at a CRM system, it’s there to deal with the initial inquiry. It’s there [00:16:55] to teach your team what to do and when and manage that flow of when to [00:17:00] call them a second time, a third time or fourth time. They shouldn’t have to send themselves set themselves tasks. [00:17:05] The system should automatically do that for you. So you don’t need to think when you’re using it. [00:17:10] But push that to one side, mate. What it should be doing is waking up your inquiries [00:17:15] periodically, but on a one by one basis rather than in in mass, [00:17:20] right? So hey, Prav inquired three months ago, send him the seven word email, [00:17:25] perhaps not responded for ten months. Send him the Break-Up email. Prav [00:17:30] hasn’t booked a consultation yet. Ask him to send us a [00:17:35] selfie of his teeth so that we can show the dentist to give [00:17:40] him some advice because he’s not quite ready to come in. But is he ready to send us a photograph of his teeth? Let’s try that [00:17:45] one. And so many patients respond with their picture, right? So they’re one step further to coming [00:17:50] in one step closer.

Payman Langroudi: And giving advice to that patient shows massive value. Add from the practice. [00:17:55] Because most practices aren’t giving free advice to patients who haven’t even visited yet. And then [00:18:00] the guy thinks, well, these guys are really good, aren’t they? So tell me this Prav the process that’s [00:18:05] followed as far as when people are to call, when people are to send emails and [00:18:10] the content of those emails, is that the same for everyone, [00:18:15] or do you sort of bespoke it for different people?

Prav Solanki: So we spend a lot of time [00:18:20] getting to know the practice, but what I say is a consistent and [00:18:25] repeatable process wins every time than [00:18:30] an ultra bespoke process that’s different for each patient. Type around your staff, [00:18:35] around your practice. Right. Like, look, I’ll take it. I’ll take it [00:18:40] to exercise and sport. Yeah. You can come up with these crazy training routines [00:18:45] with, you know, these different like yoga, Pilates hits, [00:18:50] weight training, this, that and the other. Right. But but but then you can get bored or tired [00:18:55] or give up or whatever. Right. But the guy who just turns up every day, five days a [00:19:00] week and just trains is on that pathway to fitness and consistency is key. [00:19:05] Yeah. On what we what we’ve realised with development of the CRM [00:19:10] system. Yeah. Put everyone on the same program. For every one in exactly [00:19:15] the same program. And then if you want to build any nuances into your follow [00:19:20] up process, layer that on top of what we tell you to do. But don’t [00:19:25] deviate from the plan that we give you. Because we’ve had over a million inquiries through this [00:19:30] platform. We’ve seen the data, yet we’ve seen what works, we’ve seen [00:19:35] what subject lines works, we’ve seen what SMSes work, we’ve fixed things that [00:19:40] are broken.

Prav Solanki: And so when someone says, hey, I’ve got this idea, I’ve got that idea. Cool. Test [00:19:45] it, but don’t deviate from the plan, right? Just follow my follow up process [00:19:50] of how often to call, when to follow up, what time of day to call, [00:19:55] what device to call from. Just follow me on this. Just trust [00:20:00] me on this piece. Yeah, and you will squeeze so much more out of your marketing budget [00:20:05] than just having an ad hoc approach because you know, this person’s [00:20:10] off sick, or this new team members come and said, hey, I worked at XYZ Dental Practice and [00:20:15] we did this right. Let’s give that a go. So I have a process, and on the whole, [00:20:20] I feel it’s pretty robust. And if if every practice was to follow this with [00:20:25] or without a CRM system, you would elevate your conversion rates, right? Even if it’s just a call [00:20:30] follow up thing. What my system does is it allows you to basically, [00:20:35] it prompts you to take these follow up steps rather [00:20:40] than you having to remember or set yourself these tasks. Does that make sense?

Payman Langroudi: How often does the staff [00:20:45] member actually open it up, or is it always on in the background or always on buddy, always [00:20:50] on.

Prav Solanki: Always on? Yeah. So you’ve got it there. It’s got notifications [00:20:55] coming in. You can put patients on snooze so you can say, hey, look, this patient [00:21:00] inquiry, I’ve got to I’ve got to call them at 2:00. Right. So you say snooze till 2:00 [00:21:05] and then it’ll pop up in the window saying call this patient now right at 2:00. So you can set yourself [00:21:10] little notifications like that. But you know, it’s it’s always on. Patients [00:21:15] are always, always responding to SMS. And you know when you send [00:21:20] when when the, when lead flow sends them an automated email, what happens next [00:21:25] is that that patient will respond to an automated email. It pulls that into lead flow, sends [00:21:30] you a notification. And then you know, hey, this patient’s responded. Let’s re-engage with them [00:21:35] now. Right. Whatever that response is. So it’s always on. It becomes the heartbeat of your [00:21:40] practice. Really. Um. In that respect.

Payman Langroudi: So give me examples [00:21:45] Prav here of situations where the software has brought [00:21:50] treatment to life that would have gone, you know, I know, I know you can come up with 100 [00:21:55] examples here, but what were the things that people wouldn’t have thought? I mean, you said you just said [00:22:00] two years. Are there loads of examples of people who, 18 months after contacting you [00:22:05] start going ahead?

Prav Solanki: Tons, tons. I’m going to give you this analogy and you might. I know it’s been such a long [00:22:10] time since you held a drill in your hand, mate, but imagine so. So I’ll give you [00:22:15] this situation, right? I don’t know if anyone out there has had a consultation with a patient [00:22:20] and they disappear and you think, well, that was that was [00:22:25] a time waster. Whatever. Right? They just don’t go ahead with treatment for whatever reason. And then two [00:22:30] years later, they turn up in your chair and think, where the heck did that patient come from? I [00:22:35] thought you were long gone. Yeah. Every time I mention this to a clinician, they’re like, yeah, [00:22:40] it happens all the time. And you know why that is? It’s because life [00:22:45] gets in the way. Yeah, life gets in the way. And it has these funny things [00:22:50] of throwing things at you. Whether it’s financial restrictions, time restrictions, work restrictions, [00:22:55] work life balance, whatever that is. Right. And we see this so many times. [00:23:00] Right. And that’s why we’re following up for two years. Right. Because the one thing that we’ve seen [00:23:05] always talk about three lanes of the motorway, when I think about inquiries and leads. Right. So [00:23:10] I’m going to take you through that concept. Yeah. Of the inquiries that are coming in. Right. [00:23:15] Only 3% of them are fast lane buyers. The patients are going to inquire today, [00:23:20] buy today and transact today. Okay. About [00:23:25] 15% are middle lane buyers. What that means is they’ll inquire today, but they’ll make a transaction [00:23:30] between today and the next three months. Yeah, the next 90 days. [00:23:35] And it doesn’t there may be, you know, half crossing halfway across the middle lane to [00:23:40] the fast lane. Right. And so maybe they’re only 45 days away from making [00:23:45] that transaction or 20 days. But but let’s just put them in the middle lane. Right. The [00:23:50] slow lane buyers are buying over the next 18 months, and that comprises 50% [00:23:55] of the people who are engaging today, and 32% [00:24:00] are buying over 18 months later. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s crazy. But based [00:24:05] on those stats, you literally will double your business by following up for two years. [00:24:10]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And it’s insane. You know, and especially when you think about practices that [00:24:15] are doing. So so here’s the thing. The more expensive something is the longer [00:24:20] your decision making process.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So it’s it’s more than double right. It’s [00:24:25] more than double. Because if it’s a big implant case or a big restorative case [00:24:30] or whatever, right. You’ll be considering that over a longer time. Yeah. If you close your eyes and think [00:24:35] about the last really expensive thing you bought and something you had to borrow money to buy. [00:24:40] Yeah. How long did that decision take and why? Why do we always give this example? Right. [00:24:45] If you think about something really expensive you had to borrow money to buy. It’s because our patients often [00:24:50] have to borrow money to buy teeth, right? Whether it’s, you know, a mouth full of veneers, [00:24:55] um, ortho restorative work, implant dentistry. [00:25:00] You know, finance is a big conversation in today’s world, right? And, [00:25:05] you know, then there’s the whole thing. Patient didn’t get accepted for finance. The need is there. [00:25:10] Right. They really want more.

Payman Langroudi: And more right now.

Prav Solanki: Loads.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Loads. [00:25:15]

Payman Langroudi: That assessment that you said was that when you said 50% by over, you [00:25:20] know, in the longer period 18 months, 18 months. Yeah. But you know you should you should look at the analysis [00:25:25] here by by treatment value. That would be really interesting wouldn’t it. So if [00:25:30] the more expensive treatments are coming in slower, you say, [00:25:35] you know of the total turnover, 75% [00:25:40] of it came in slower.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And isn’t it.

Prav Solanki: It’s really it’s really interesting. [00:25:45] Right. So you know when you, when you delve deeper into it it’s definitely. And [00:25:50] so let’s go back to that question you asked. Right. Examples. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:25:55] it’s funny like some of our CEOs that we work closely with will say [00:26:00] to us, oh do you know what? I discarded this patient so you can tell lead flow like what’s [00:26:05] happened. So at some point you know, your TCO will let lead flow know that this [00:26:10] patient is no longer interested in treatment with us. And then it says to the TCO [00:26:15] lead flow will continue to follow up with this patient in the meantime. Right. And [00:26:20] then all of a sudden they get an email that says something like, have [00:26:25] you given up on fixing your smile? Right? Ten months later, [00:26:30] 12 months later, and then all of a sudden out of the woodwork, that patient responds, [00:26:35] have the TCO. Having said, this patient is not going to go ahead ever, right, and [00:26:40] says, I’m ready to go. What’s the next step? Can [00:26:45] I book that consultation right, and wakes the patient up. Now, when you’ve got a pipeline [00:26:50] of inquiries coming in month after month after month, and you’ve been using the CRM system [00:26:55] that is following up patients for a couple of years, right? That piece [00:27:00] is on autopilot. So there’s one of those every day. Yeah, every single [00:27:05] day somebody is responding to an auto text or an auto email.

Prav Solanki: And [00:27:10] what’s so important about these auto texts and auto emails is they need to come [00:27:15] across as being human is so important [00:27:20] that that patient thinks that somebody has sat there and crafted that email and [00:27:25] sent it just to them. So the language that we use in [00:27:30] that follow up communication is, is more important than anything else, right? So [00:27:35] some of our clients say, oh, can’t we have fancy follow up emails with like our logo [00:27:40] at the top and some graphics in there and this, that and the other? I said you could, but you’re [00:27:45] more likely to be filtered by junk. And the patient’s not going to think that you’ve just sat there and [00:27:50] bashed this out and sent them a specific email. Right. Um, and [00:27:55] so some of the language that we use and some of the follow ups is a little bit more informal. [00:28:00] Some of it is like, hey, I’m just at my desk right now. And um, I came across, [00:28:05] you know, came across your notes and wondered where you’d got to. Are you still interested? [00:28:10] Do you see what I mean? And so it feels very human. [00:28:15] And sales is human, right? That’s the whole process of it. So, [00:28:20] um, it’s loads and loads of examples like that that we see and [00:28:25] certainly, you know, the clients that we work with, will will know that [00:28:30] when, when, when they’ve got patients who are responding six, 12, 18 months later, [00:28:35] it’s um, it’s a wake up call.

Prav Solanki: It really is a wake up [00:28:40] call. Because when I ask this question to practices, I say, when an inquiry lands, tell me when you give up, [00:28:45] just answer me that question and say, what do you mean? I said, talk me through your process. [00:28:50] Inquiry lands. What do you do? Or send an email? Okay. Have you got a template. We’ve got this [00:28:55] copy and paste template. No problem. So send that out okay cool. And then do you text them. Yeah. [00:29:00] Do you call them. Yeah. Do you call them from a landline or a mobile or just [00:29:05] the landline or. I’ve got a practice mobile. Do you ever try both. No, it’s just one or the other. [00:29:10] Why not. Well, I’ve just got a landline or I’ve just got a practice mobile. I [00:29:15] just use that and then I try and humanise that process. And I ask them this. Hey, I’ll [00:29:20] ask you the question now. Right. What’s your local area code where you live? What is it, 0208 [00:29:25] or something like that? 70207 right, okay. So [00:29:30] answer this if you got a call, if you got a number flashing up on your phone [00:29:35] and it was an old 207 or it was an unknown mobile, which one are you more [00:29:40] likely to pick up?

Payman Langroudi: 007.

Prav Solanki: Okay, fine. Me and you have got [00:29:45] a lot in common, mate. Because if I had an 0161 number, call me. [00:29:50] I’d pick that up straight away, right? Why? Because local Manchester number might be local businesses. [00:29:55] Try and get into someone I’ve enquired with. Whatever. Right. But that’s just me, right? If it was a [00:30:00] mobile, absolutely not. Right. Someone’s handed my number out. I’m a busy guy. I don’t want to [00:30:05] speak to that person. But when I ask this question, there’s some people who respond just like Prav, just like [00:30:10] you did, but there’s some people who respond in the opposite way. [00:30:15] Oh, I’ll pick a mobile number up any time of the day. I’m really curious. I wonder who’s got my mobile, who’s trying to ring me [00:30:20] from their mobile? Right? Definitely not picking up the 0207 or the 0161 [00:30:25] number. Definitely not, because.

Payman Langroudi: I see that as a business. Maybe we’re.

Prav Solanki: All different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:30:30] yeah, whatever. Right.

Prav Solanki: What whatever it is, I think the important the important [00:30:35] point is whether you’re like paying Prav or like that other person, we’re all [00:30:40] different. So shouldn’t our sales process cater to those different [00:30:45] people? So we try half of our follow up calls from a landline [00:30:50] and half of our follow up calls from a mobile. And what we’re trying to do is increase the probability [00:30:55] that a person’s going to pick up, because they’re not necessarily going to connect that [00:31:00] mobile number or that landline with the enquiry they’ve just made. Yeah, but [00:31:05] but let me tell you this. When the CRM system [00:31:10] sends them a text message saying, I’ve just tried to call you [00:31:15] when you tried to call them with that number, or I’ve just tried, or they get an email saying, [00:31:20] I’ve just tried to call you patients ring back, right? And [00:31:25] it’s the same thing. It’s what we do, right? Imagine pay someone tries to ring you on the mobile, [00:31:30] right? And it’s an unknown. So you ignore it, you’re busy, whatever. And [00:31:35] then you get a WhatsApp saying, hey, hey, we met at, um, yeah, yeah, the dentistry [00:31:40] show or whatever. You gave me a number. It’s just me trying to call you, and you go, oh, all right, I’ll ring the person [00:31:45] back. Yeah. Same situation when it comes to the sales process, right? The [00:31:50] intricacies of sales and communication and the psychology of that [00:31:55] is what I’m really passionate about when it comes to developing these automated systems. Right. [00:32:00] And flows. And, you know, we can sit here and get hung up on features [00:32:05] and integrations and this and that and so on and so forth. But actually the long [00:32:10] and short of it is, is conversion rates getting hold of patients trying all these different [00:32:15] ways of getting hold of patients. But more importantly is consistency wins [00:32:20] the race right. And long terme consistency definitely wins when it comes [00:32:25] to following up patients. Yeah two years minimum.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll see. Onboarding [00:32:30] like how long if I if I wanted to get my team trained how long [00:32:35] will it take to get to a point where we’re using it.

Prav Solanki: Well within a week [00:32:40] you’re rocking and rolling right. And the reason for that is the user [00:32:45] experience is so intuitive. Yeah. I could get mahanya. [00:32:50] My my eight year old on this tomorrow and she’d be able to use lead flow.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:32:55]

Prav Solanki: I kid you not.

Payman Langroudi: That is different because I was such a nightmare takes when [00:33:00] when we’re training people enlightened for our CRM. It I [00:33:05] just I just interviewed someone, actually, and I told her, yeah, at first you’ll find it very difficult. And then [00:33:10] after about a month, you’ll, you’ll get the feeling. And that’s a month full time in front of it. Yeah. [00:33:15]

Prav Solanki: So so I’ll you know those they can’t see the dashboard. Right. But I [00:33:20] can I can tell you this pay right that when you log on to the dashboard you’ll see your [00:33:25] new leads and it’ll say call James about Invisalign on zero seven, blah [00:33:30] blah blah, blah, blah. So guess what that person’s got to do? Have a guess call. And then when [00:33:35] they call, you’ve got a few options, right? So you press follow up and it says how should we follow up with them. They want [00:33:40] to discuss it later. They did not answer the phone or they provided an incorrect number. So [00:33:45] if you click on the thing where it says they did not answer the phone, you’ve done your job, you’ve [00:33:50] sent them a voicemail. And guess what happens next? Patient gets an automated email saying, James, I [00:33:55] just tried to call you.

Payman Langroudi: Oh nice.

Prav Solanki: Couldn’t get through. And they get a text message. James, it’s Sarah [00:34:00] here. Just tried to call you about your inquiry, but you’d have to type that image. Or you just press [00:34:05] a button and it goes right. And then what happens? Is it timestamps [00:34:10] the time that that you called that patient. Right. It’s really important. [00:34:15] And then it sets a follow up call and it says but but but the patient disappears. And [00:34:20] then it goes into another another channel or section of the CRM called Call Attempts. And it’ll [00:34:25] say call Prav. The second time, call Prav. The third time, call Prav the fourth time. Right. That [00:34:30] second call will come in, say, five days later. Right. But because, you know, your last called that patient at 10 [00:34:35] a.m. because it’s timestamped in the system. Yeah. What happens next. [00:34:40] You call that patient up one. And so I’ve got a process that I always tell clients [00:34:45] to follow. But you know sometimes they haven’t got the resources and the means to do [00:34:50] that. But my my process is this call the patient in the morning. Call the patient at lunch [00:34:55] time.

Prav Solanki: Call the patient. In late in the day after [00:35:00] hours and call the patient on a Saturday late morning. It [00:35:05] was that those are the minimum calls that you should be doing in your follow up process, [00:35:10] because you’re just trying to increase the probability of getting hold of them. Right. Because if if I’ve got a [00:35:15] regular thing that I’m doing first thing in the morning that I never answer the phone, you’re never going to get Ahold of me. Yeah. [00:35:20] And if you always try me at lunch time. But I don’t take a lunch, you’re never going to get Ahold of me, right? [00:35:25] If you happen to catch me on my commute back on the way from home and on board on my brains and [00:35:30] the phone rings, I think it’s an 0161 number. I wonder who this is. Yeah. And [00:35:35] I pick up and you might catch me on a Saturday morning, right? Or in the early evening, try and increase [00:35:40] the probability of catching this patient and getting hold of them. Right. So that protocol and process is [00:35:45] really, really important.

Payman Langroudi: You know, Prav when when I get my team to follow up more or for [00:35:50] longer, one of the most common objections I get from them is I don’t want to annoy [00:35:55] the person. Um, and by the way, I think it’s, it’s it’s it’s [00:36:00] mis founded because we’re not doing anywhere near the amount of follow up [00:36:05] that some companies do on me. And I still I still don’t see them as annoying. I see them as kind [00:36:10] of good at what they’re doing. But what is that something you hear commonly from practice [00:36:15] owners.

Prav Solanki: From all the time? Right. And the common thing is we don’t want to piss patients off. Right. [00:36:20] That’s that’s the thing. Right? So here’s the thing. There’s two things to think about. One of them is emotional [00:36:25] intelligence and how you follow up. And the other one is cadence, [00:36:30] right. And frequency. So here’s the thing. When a patient [00:36:35] initially inquires, you want the frequency to be a little bit higher in terms of the repetition. [00:36:40] Then you want to taper it off and reduce the cadence and the frequency of communication. Right. [00:36:45] You don’t want to be following this patient up for two years and hammering that phone every day. You’re really going to piss [00:36:50] them off then, right? Yeah. But when you email them, like a lot of the [00:36:55] emotional intelligence in the emails that we build into our platform, [00:37:00] we figured all that stuff out for you already. Yeah. The little nuances [00:37:05] of the words that go into there, the subject lines, the reason that you’re following up. Hey, Prav, [00:37:10] um, we’ve just had Sarah complete her implant treatment, and I know you inquired a [00:37:15] while ago. Wanted to share her story with you. Here’s a before and afters. [00:37:20]

Prav Solanki: Still, a follow up is still a chaser, but you’re sharing a success [00:37:25] story. You could do the same with an implant. Google review. You could do the same [00:37:30] with an implant video testimonial. You could also follow up and say, [00:37:35] Hey Sarah, just checking in. Are you still interested in replacing that missing tooth? [00:37:40] Later on in the journey, you could follow up and say, have you decided to go somewhere else? [00:37:45] Did you decide against using us? Could we have some feedback about our process [00:37:50] and why you decided to go somewhere else? And then they respond and go, oh, I haven’t gone anywhere else. [00:37:55] I’m still thinking it through. Right? So there’s the emotional intelligence of the reasons [00:38:00] over which you follow up. Yeah. Um, perhaps [00:38:05] saying to the patient, hey, Prav, I’m just calling to get [00:38:10] your permission to send you our new dental implant brochure, because I hadn’t passed [00:38:15] that on to you before. Have I got the permission to send you that via email? Well, of course you have. But [00:38:20] it’s another excuse to call. Yeah, and then that. Then you may break [00:38:25] into a conversation about let’s get you in for a consultation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but. So how [00:38:30] much of that is within the system? All of it.

Prav Solanki: Most of it. Yeah. Yeah, [00:38:35] yeah. Most of it’s baked in. So look, what I will say is, is, you know, [00:38:40] the communication courses I teach write about, you know, the sales process, the words this, [00:38:45] that and the other and all the rest of it. Right. It’s all that that has been baked into there, right? [00:38:50] 15, 16 years of being at this game from, from, from entering [00:38:55] the world of dentistry as a naive person who knew very little about the [00:39:00] patient journey, treatments and all the rest of it. So to somebody [00:39:05] who knows a lot about dentistry, who knows a lot about the patient journey, who knows a lot about [00:39:10] the way the patients and dentists think and how to communicate different types [00:39:15] of dentistry to different people. That has all been unfiltered, injected [00:39:20] into the nuances of the system. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Sure. Can your experience [00:39:25] with owning practices is really, really sort of changed the way you look at this? [00:39:30]

Prav Solanki: Without question.

Payman Langroudi: Was such a thing, isn’t it? I mean, you were 15 [00:39:35] years in before you owned the practice sort of thing.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And I think what [00:39:40] practice ownership taught me. It taught me a lot about what happens on the other side of the [00:39:45] reception desk. Yeah, or the other side of the door. Right. [00:39:50] Because as a supplier to the as a supplier to the industry, you [00:39:55] just see your side of the fence, okay. But when you [00:40:00] are both supplier and owner, you understand the challenges, you understand [00:40:05] the objections, you understand the staff training issues, you understand the staff turnover [00:40:10] issues. You understand the communication between nurse and dentist [00:40:15] and good nurse and dentist and not so good nurse and dentist and great TCO and patient [00:40:20] and and all the different bits in between. Right. And having owned [00:40:25] multiple practices and then worked with and coached lots of practices. Every [00:40:30] practice is different. Every single patient journey is different. Yeah. You [00:40:35] can say you’ve got the same patient journey as me. No you haven’t. And I’m not necessarily saying my [00:40:40] patient journey is better than yours either. But every single one is different because it it takes [00:40:45] its sort of elements from the fabric of the owners. Right. Or what [00:40:50] they’ve inherited and whatnot. And they, they have their little tweaks and changes to it, and there’s [00:40:55] no right or wrong way to do that journey. But I think, I think what’s really important is [00:41:00] that understanding that really helps me to. You [00:41:05] know, either serve clients really well, understand their problems really well, and then provide [00:41:10] solutions to that and be that in, you know, patient communication software [00:41:15] or, you know, just an advice that I give clients from, from time to time. Um, and [00:41:20] a lot of it’s just common sense.

Payman Langroudi: Me you see, [00:41:25] your little your little devil eyes came out there. So [00:41:30] why don’t you just pull the curtain back a bit on the process that you’ve [00:41:35] been through or that you go through to build software? [00:41:40] I mean, a bit different to agency work, right? And I know we did an episode on scrums [00:41:45] and, you know, uh, are you working with mainly people [00:41:50] in, in house or have you got people out? You know, developers are outside your business. How [00:41:55] are you doing it?

Prav Solanki: So everyone’s in. So every team member is in the business. [00:42:00] But since the whole Covid scenario. Right. And, um, we all went [00:42:05] fully remote. It opened my eyes to the talent of what is available [00:42:10] out there, right? So we have a team of software developers. [00:42:15] The core team are in-house and UK. Yeah. [00:42:20] Um, and everyone’s sort of, should we say employed, but we’ve managed [00:42:25] to tap into, um, additional team members who are based. So we’ve [00:42:30] got one but one guy who’s in Serbia, um, and we’ve got two [00:42:35] guys who are based in Ukraine and they’re insanely talented. [00:42:40] Right. But we follow a scrum or what’s called an agile methodology. When [00:42:45] we come to software development, we’ve got a product owner and a product manager who [00:42:50] is just focussed on product, is focussed on creating all the tasks [00:42:55] and all the what we call all the little breaking down like, [00:43:00] you know, let’s say, let’s say there’s a piece of work that says, hey, add a button here [00:43:05] to do this and whatever that functionality is, right? That’ll be broken down into 22 tasks [00:43:10] development tasks. And then each of the developers will pick up a task or whatever, do [00:43:15] it. And then if one person writes the code, the other person checks the code, they push it to live. [00:43:20]

Prav Solanki: The whole development process is like, I’ve learned so much about it [00:43:25] and, you know, like errors that come up and things like that. We’ve [00:43:30] learned so much about it. Right? But the team, the team now, I mean, that [00:43:35] whole development process is managed without me now. Um, I used to be very integral to it, but [00:43:40] now it’s really refreshing for me to log on to lead flow and see a new feature and go, oh shit, [00:43:45] when did that happen? That’s really cool. That’s really cool when stuff happens and you [00:43:50] don’t know about it and it happens without you and it’s cool. And the fact that it’s cool, right? [00:43:55] So it’s cool because it happens about you and the feature is cool. It’s it’s like double cool. Yeah. [00:44:00] So that that piece kind of takes, kind of takes care of itself now. But, um, you [00:44:05] know, like solving problems with software is not only, [00:44:10] um, interesting, but it can be very, very expensive as well, because [00:44:15] let’s say you make the wrong decision. Yeah. Let’s say you decide [00:44:20] to either build a feature. Or go or choose the wrong [00:44:25] library or technology on which to build this code base here. You could do [00:44:30] that for three months with a team of six developers. Right. [00:44:35] And then realise you’ve just wasted all that time, energy and resource [00:44:40] and you need to unwind that now, right? And that has happened several.

Prav Solanki: That has happened [00:44:45] several times. We’ve got systems and checks and balances in place now. And [00:44:50] the development team tend to when they’re thinking about solving problems, they’ll [00:44:55] get their heads together. I’d rather they spend two days planning [00:45:00] and figuring out or making decision, or two weeks right before even writing [00:45:05] a line of code, than spend all that time coding to realise we’ve just made the [00:45:10] wrong decision. Yeah, so so so that and I get involved in that discussion. And [00:45:15] even though I’m not a I don’t understand code, I’ll challenge the status quo. I’ll [00:45:20] ask questions around, well is this is there any alternative options. And someone will come. So there’s [00:45:25] definitely times during those technical discussions where my input has been valuable. On the whole it’s not. [00:45:30] Um, but there are there are times when it is valuable and [00:45:35] I just enjoy understanding and getting to grips with all the geeky language [00:45:40] and all this stuff about branches and version control and pull requests and [00:45:45] and all the rest of it. It’s, um, it’s it used to be all new language. And, you know, [00:45:50] my team are very good at doing things down for me.

Payman Langroudi: Nice [00:45:55] property. So is it got its own website now.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Lead flow. Com. [00:46:00] So, um.

Payman Langroudi: How do you spell lead flow.

Prav Solanki: Flow. Yeah. So [00:46:05] lead flow. Oh. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:46:10] congratulations. But I know this has been going on for a long time now. Congratulations [00:46:15] on on getting on the other side of it.

Prav Solanki: It’s never finished [00:46:20] though, mate. It’s never finished.

Payman Langroudi: So I know like, it’s always right. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Kind of like [00:46:25] that. But but but here’s the thing. Because we take feedback from our clients very, very seriously [00:46:30] as well. We’ve got a whole product development roadmap. Right. So one of the latest requests [00:46:35] that we had was, um, I mean, I think you’ve got to be you’ve got to have been [00:46:40] sleeping under a rock if you don’t know what Care Stack is, for example. Right. So care stack is [00:46:45] a new dental practice. So management software sort of your equivalent of [00:46:50] the dentals or the SOS or the r4’s of this world. Right. And so we’re [00:46:55] currently working with their development team to write a full end to end integration with care [00:47:00] stack and lead flow. And so your work is never done because Care Stack didn’t [00:47:05] exist when we well, it probably did, but it wasn’t in our UK ecosystem anyway. And [00:47:10] then happened to have met with the CEO Abi, and worked alongside Adrian Dray as [00:47:15] well. And now we’re working with their software development team and creating this end to end [00:47:20] connection with them. Right. And so you know, but but then something else [00:47:25] will come out, another piece of technology or you know, we’ve, we’ve, you know, integrating [00:47:30] some AI into that.

Prav Solanki: And what does that look like. And there’s always [00:47:35] something there’s always feedback from clients and our, you know, motto of [00:47:40] being the best dental CRM system on the planet. You can’t stop. [00:47:45] You cannot stop. Yeah. You’ve got to continue developing [00:47:50] and evolving. And then and then what? What you know, what defines it as the best. Yeah, there’s [00:47:55] there’s loads of is it because it’s got features bells and whistles or is it because it’s the best [00:48:00] at converting. It’s the most user friendly experience. Right. Is it a Carlsberg thing. [00:48:05] Who knows. Um, but but for me to genuinely and [00:48:10] honestly stand there with my hand on my heart and sell it as the best [00:48:15] it has to be in my mind? It’s not. It’s not a biased Prav is [00:48:20] deluded scenario here. Yeah, I’m passionate and convinced, and there was a point [00:48:25] in the marketplace where it wasn’t, and so you would have never heard me singing [00:48:30] and shouting about it. What it is today is a completely different beast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:48:35] I mean, look, products are interesting, man. You’ve been in the world of services mainly, [00:48:40] and products and obviously software products different again, like in in my [00:48:45] world the products problems tend to be regulatory. You know, you want to do this but you can’t [00:48:50] or you can do it, but it’ll take a year for the regulatory to work out. [00:48:55] Or you can do it and you can’t do it in this country because of regulatory. Whereas software’s [00:49:00] got its own sort of nuance, and a lot of it tends to be around speed, right? [00:49:05] Trying things, putting things in place.

Prav Solanki: Go on. Yeah, [00:49:10] yeah the speed. But there’s also regulation. Right. So you know when we look.

Payman Langroudi: At data right. [00:49:15]

Prav Solanki: Data GDPR and then you know HIPAA compliance [00:49:20] for the states. Yeah. What that looks like um, we’re [00:49:25] not us. Ready. Right. Um where’s that. Data stored. So if we had a customer [00:49:30] in the US, this data would need to be stored in the US and processed there. If it’s UK, it needs to be UK, right? [00:49:35] So there’s that whole piece as well. Right. So um, you know that’s on our product [00:49:40] development roadmap as well. But it’s database infrastructure that sort of stuff. [00:49:45] Do you know what I mean. It’s it gets it gets really, really interesting. And we’re [00:49:50] constantly solving problems. You know what? I just find it challenging as a [00:49:55] business owner involved in multiple businesses, I enjoy the challenge and working with people [00:50:00] who are super smart, who tell me they’ve solved the problem or show me the problem [00:50:05] that I’ve solved is cool.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Well, [00:50:10] you know, it’s a pleasure to have you back. And I know that you’ve been away, but we did get that one [00:50:15] interview with, um, Abby from Cass Tech this upcoming episode of [00:50:20] Coming Soon. Yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki: That’s, uh, tune in for that one, [00:50:25] because, um, no spoiler alert here, but the [00:50:30] guys are crazy genius. I mean, he reminds me of [00:50:35] the Elon Musk of dentistry, and I’m not going to say anything more. I’m not going to spoil it. But it [00:50:40] was an insane interview. Um, so we’ve got that to look forward to, and I might [00:50:45] make some additional appearances. Who knows? Pay. I’ll pop [00:50:50] back every now and then. Um, I do really enjoy these sessions, um, especially connecting [00:50:55] with people in our industry. It’s just that, you know, time drags me away from time to [00:51:00] time, and, um, the fits and starts, right? There’ll be. There’ll be times where I’ll be more present and times [00:51:05] where I guess my other half, Doctor Langroudi [00:51:10] is, um, is running the show.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll have you on mind move as one of these days, but.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, [00:51:15] yeah.

Prav Solanki: Maybe maybe.

[Voice]: This [00:51:20] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one [00:51:25] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:51:30] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [00:51:35] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just [00:51:40] a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say [00:51:45] and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did [00:51:50] get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this [00:51:55] with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [00:52:00]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Simon Caxton: If I was to build up two centrals together, I always start with the left [00:00:05] one. So there’s patients, right? My left, because the model is upside down. And so I always start [00:00:10] with that one. And then two centrals although they’re similar they’re not identical. And [00:00:15] that’s the hardest thing when people say I want the Centrals to look exactly the same. Well, [00:00:20] in nature they’re not exactly the same. So that’s the hardest thing, is when people say they’ve got to [00:00:25] be identical and the gingival contour is different, you might have one gingival [00:00:30] margin higher than the other. And I think when dentists do composites [00:00:35] they’re building the composite onto unprepped which is yeah, [00:00:40] the majority of the ones I see where they’ve been added to. And that’s really [00:00:45] hard because you’re working with a structure underneath that’s already going [00:00:50] in one direction, or it’s going to be thinner or more bulky in areas. What [00:00:55] we have we generally or we like to have is something that’s been tracked down and [00:01:00] we’ve got a reasonable amount of room and space and we’re recreating that whole [00:01:05] thing. Then we’ve got more scope to to build those line angles in and [00:01:10] the bow bosses and make it look more natural. But as far as shapes go, [00:01:15] it’s get one looking right and then get the other ones to kind of match it.

Intro Voice: This [00:01:20] is Dental Leaders, [00:01:25] the podcast where you get to go one on one [00:01:30] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: Dental [00:01:40] technicians are some of the unsung heroes of our profession. [00:01:45] And you know, personally, I remember my first ever job. [00:01:50] I thought I was a brilliant dentist and it turned out actually my technician [00:01:55] was brilliant. I realised I realised 2 or 3 technicians later that that guy John Oliver [00:02:00] in Kent, what a hero. Everything would fit first time, everything would look [00:02:05] beautiful and your technician can make you look amazing and not get [00:02:10] much of the praise for that or make you look terrible. And often we do blame them [00:02:15] instead of blaming ourselves. So I want to have a conversation with some technicians, [00:02:20] and we’re going to start off with Simon Caxton. Massive pleasure to [00:02:25] have you, Simon. Thank you. Simon is the, what do you call it, principal. Uh, is that how [00:02:30] they call it? Manager?

Simon Caxton: Yeah. Well, um, our lead ceramist, the lead technician [00:02:35] may be lead technician.

Payman Langroudi: Lead technician at Simply Dental Ceramics with his partner, [00:02:40] Lee wood. Um, a business that’s been going for 20 years. 20 odd [00:02:45] years or no, sorry.

Simon Caxton: 15 years this year? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 15 years. I’m so sorry. Recently, [00:02:50] Simon also, um, sold his lab to a much bigger group, a group called [00:02:55] chorus, who run 80 plus labs all over Europe. So it’s going to be a massive [00:03:00] pleasure to get into all of that. But let’s start, Simon, with welcoming you onto the pod [00:03:05] and get into your backstory. So you know what kind of a kid were you? Where did you [00:03:10] grow up? You know, who were your parents? Why? Dental how did it happen? Well, it sounds.

Simon Caxton: Like [00:03:15] a beginning of a biography. So I grew up in, um, Essex. I’m from Romford [00:03:20] originally, and, uh, yeah, just council estate I grew up on [00:03:25] went to a standard comprehensive school. No real aspirations to do [00:03:30] anything, especially Dental. That was probably the last thing on my mind. Um, [00:03:35] I really wanted to be a policeman, so I’m far from that. That was always my [00:03:40] my main goal, even to the point when I finished my apprenticeship, I still applied [00:03:45] for the Metropolitan Police, but they turned me down. So maybe they they saw something in me [00:03:50] that I didn’t. But, um, yeah, my parents, both my mum worked [00:03:55] two jobs to sort of keep us going. My dad had a good job in the Inland [00:04:00] Revenue. So careful what you say, Payman. Um, but [00:04:05] he’s retired from that now. Um, yeah. I love my sport. [00:04:10] I still quite a sporty person. And that was kind of my downfall, really. [00:04:15] At college, I played too much sport, didn’t do enough work, and [00:04:20] then fell in to dentistry from there. Uh, how do how [00:04:25] so I was halfway through my A levels, did my mocks, got very bad results, [00:04:30] was told I’ve got a really buck my ideas up.

Simon Caxton: And even if. But [00:04:35] back to my ideas. I’d still struggle to get a good grade, so I thought [00:04:40] maybe now is the time to start looking for a job. And I just looked through the local [00:04:45] paper and I found this, uh, advert for an apprentice dental technician. Didn’t [00:04:50] really know what it was, but it was the opportunity to still go to college. [00:04:55] So it was a day release course and earn a bit of money, I thought. So I thought, [00:05:00] well, best of both worlds. I can still go to carry on my education and and [00:05:05] earn a bit of money to to go out and support my sporting lifestyle. When I got to [00:05:10] the interview, uh, actually before I got to the interview, my mum’s friend was [00:05:15] a careers adviser and she said, oh, you can start off being a dental technician. [00:05:20] Then you can work your way up and become a hygienist and a and a dentist that way. [00:05:25] But I actually thought I was going for the interview as a dental nurse. [00:05:30] I thought I’d be in. I actually thought I’d be in practice. I had no idea what this this job entailed. [00:05:35] So I went along to the interview. A bit blind really, but [00:05:40] got there.

Simon Caxton: The guy sold it to me. Really. He told me and [00:05:45] showed me all the different things that we’d be doing. I thought, oh, this, this sounds really interesting. [00:05:50] Um, all right, I’ll give it a go. And 30 years later, [00:05:55] I’m still giving it a go. So. So I must I must have done something [00:06:00] right. But it is a really, really interesting job. And I [00:06:05] think with me as well, when I get into something, I get into something [00:06:10] regardless, regardless of what it is, I want to know all the ins and outs and I want to be [00:06:15] do it to the best of my ability. I know it sounds a bit cliched when you hear things like Muhammad [00:06:20] Ali, if I if I was going to be a binman, I’d be the best binman there is. Yeah, [00:06:25] I’m a bit like that with everything I do, I don’t. I’ve done lots of different things [00:06:30] like hobbies and whatever, and and I always go into them very deeply. And I think [00:06:35] this is the same with, with this job as well. I just wanted to know how everything [00:06:40] works and how how to do it. So yeah, [00:06:45] it was what would.

Payman Langroudi: You say straight away you felt that way when you like, you took to it fast. [00:06:50]

Simon Caxton: Yeah, I, I say I’m a pretty quick learner, but [00:06:55] I struggle to retain information. That was part of the reason why I didn’t [00:07:00] do so great at college, at doing A-levels I can [00:07:05] take information in, but not actually necessarily put [00:07:10] it out at the right time. So exams. I’m terrible exams, but I can [00:07:15] remember little details of things that probably are relevant. Um, [00:07:20] but if someone asks me where something is in the lab, I could tell them what shelf [00:07:25] it’s on, how many boxes in it is. But you ask me the square root of something, or [00:07:30] what chemical formula of something is? I couldn’t tell you, but yeah, [00:07:35] I just kind of picked it up. I’m not a naturally artistic person [00:07:40] in respect of creating sort of drawings and paintings [00:07:45] and sculptures and things like that, but I think the science and the art together, [00:07:50] I think you can learn how to do certain processes, and that’s how I kind of picked [00:07:55] it up. And then I just got a feel for it, I suppose. And [00:08:00] the science part as well, but how things work. I always thought as a kid [00:08:05] I was always like to push the boundaries and stuff. So if someone says to me, you can’t [00:08:10] do that because it’s going to break, I’d have to check for myself. It’s going to break. And [00:08:15] then no, you’re right. Or then if it didn’t, it would be like, oh, so I can do that. [00:08:20] So there’s a lot of that kind of involved, especially with Dental technology. We do push the boundaries [00:08:25] on stuff, and when we get asked to make all kinds of different things and we have to work on [00:08:30] all types of. Preps and impressions and we have to make [00:08:35] things work. So yeah. Yeah, that I do think [00:08:40] that. Yeah, I did take to it fairly well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean we’ve we’ve got a Dental [00:08:45] lab now at enlighten and we make one item right. Bleaching tray. [00:08:50] Bleaching tray. Yeah. Which, which I know all technicians for technicians are bleaching trays are nothing. [00:08:55] Yeah. It’s, it’s the lowest of the low. And it’s actually it’s quite a problematic [00:09:00] thing, right. To persuade people to sit and make bleaching trays all day. Um, okay. We may come in a particular [00:09:05] way or whatever, but what one thing that’s I’ve realised by, by now, having [00:09:10] a lab is the sort of the people difficulties [00:09:15] of it, insomuch as, you know, it’s almost like one guy gets really good at this thing. [00:09:20] If this guy leaves, it really is a nightmare. So do you [00:09:25] have to tell me about that a little bit? Do you always have to have at least two people knowing how to do everything? [00:09:30] Yes. In case one of them leaves, I think. Is that how it works?

Simon Caxton: Well, I think the dental technician, [00:09:35] especially when I was training as as an apprentice, you kind of got pigeonholed [00:09:40] into doing certain areas, the type of work. Yeah. So yeah, I’ve only [00:09:45] ever done crown and bridge work. Um, never not really done any removals, [00:09:50] any prosthetics other than a college. I could probably fudge my way through it, but [00:09:55] I could never. I couldn’t do something that I would want to give someone to, to [00:10:00] wear. Um, and I think for me, [00:10:05] as I said, I always want to know how to do everything. So with Crown and Bridge, I wanted to [00:10:10] know how the models were made and how they were done. Right. The metal work, [00:10:15] which we don’t do too much of, now wax in and cast in, and then as it’s [00:10:20] moved through, I want it to be a ceramist. I knew that’s that’s what I wanted to do. And then. Start [00:10:25] with that. And then the CAD cam came in. I really wanted to know [00:10:30] that. And I think by knowing all aspects of maybe just Crown and Bridge, [00:10:35] I think that’s good. Because people, as I said, do get pigeonholed into [00:10:40] doing one thing. So if that one person leaves, you’ve got to then find that one person [00:10:45] who’s got that specific expertise in that that area. So yeah, I agree with what you say there. [00:10:50] It’s it is hard. Um, and it is still hard to find people that [00:10:55] have got a good all round knowledge of, of the, of the work we do. [00:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: But then you’ve got okay on one side, you’ve got that the actual technical work. [00:11:05] Um, and, and as you say, there’s a, there’s an artistry to it, but there is a definitely [00:11:10] a science side to it. Then you’ve got the sort of, you know, the type of technician who produces [00:11:15] beautiful looking stuff, but it doesn’t fit in the same way. [00:11:20] And you’ve got the other type of technician where it fits. Everything fits like a glove, but the aesthetics aren’t [00:11:25] quite there. And that’s just the technician piece. Yeah, let alone the business piece. The running, [00:11:30] running a business where there’s lots of technicians. And then what I’ve [00:11:35] noticed is that we just make bleaching trays and we’re already on our fourth printer. [00:11:40] Yeah, yeah. Because because you realise you need something else or something’s cheaper or something’s [00:11:45] more expensive or and your, your CapEx in a lab, like I [00:11:50] dread to think what it must be like, how much you must have to spend on machines and things. [00:11:55] When I’m just making bleaching trays, I’m spending hundreds of thousands on stuff.

Simon Caxton: Sometimes [00:12:00] we’ve probably got the same machines that do the same thing, but we’re using them differently.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, [00:12:05] yeah, I mean, we’ve got.

Simon Caxton: Three printers now. Uh, we’ve got [00:12:10] our own in-house milling unit, but then you’ve got all the bits and pieces, as you know, that. Go [00:12:15] with that. So you’ve got the cleaning side of the printing and the post-processing. [00:12:20] Yeah. And all the, the areas to trim up as well. [00:12:25] And. We was having this conversation merely the other day [00:12:30] that we’ll do an implant for someone and they won’t have the right [00:12:35] driver to do that implant in the surgery. They’ve sent us the implant in the first place, [00:12:40] and it’s like I’m the driver to do that. And so we’ve got a driver for every system going. [00:12:45] You might have to buy a driver for a really obscure system that you’ve never heard [00:12:50] of before, for one case, for one case. And they’ve got it sitting in the drawer somewhere. But you’ve [00:12:55] got all these different drivers, we’ve got all the articulators known to man, so [00:13:00] you have to cover every eventuality. And someone said to us, we were [00:13:05] a bit like MacGyver of the dental world yesterday, and that that’s [00:13:10] just the things you can buy without the things that we’ve fashioned up and made ourselves as well.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:13:15] then this thing that you said where you sort of hyperfocus on some [00:13:20] stuff like like sport, for instance, and like, you know, technology, [00:13:25] um, I’ve noticed technicians have that they’ve got like a, I don’t [00:13:30] know if you’d call it ADHD or whatever. Yeah, but but something like that where [00:13:35] they’re focussed completely in and they’re in that world. And sometimes [00:13:40] if you, if you interrupt them, it can really get to them. It’s. Is that a thing? Yeah. Just my technician. [00:13:45] Definitely. Yeah. Uh.

Simon Caxton: It can take me a long time [00:13:50] during the day to actually sit down at my bench and start work. I might [00:13:55] I might not start building a case until, like, after lunch. And I’ve got to finish [00:14:00] it that day and to build up a case from start to finish. Could take me. If it’s a [00:14:05] full arch, it could take me anything from a full arch, probably an hour and a half plus, [00:14:10] and you get interrupted in the middle of that, a phone call or a text and email or whatever, [00:14:15] and you just lose, lose your focus. It it’s really hard. [00:14:20] And as you say, running a business as well. I think I’m still learning how to do that. Even [00:14:25] after 15 years. And since the, uh, we’ve been, um, become a part of the group. [00:14:30] Like you just said to me, CapEx there, I never even knew that what that was until last week. And all these abbreviations, [00:14:35] I’m getting these spreadsheets to fill out. And it’s [00:14:40] like, what? What does this mean? And it was before it was like, do we need is [00:14:45] it broken? Yeah. Can we fix it? No, we need to buy it and let’s get another one that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s quite it’s [00:14:50] quite similar to being a dentist, right. As a dentist you’re trained to do some dentistry, but you’ve got no idea [00:14:55] on running a business. Yeah. And, and and a lot of us fudge our way through, [00:15:00] don’t we. And make loads of mistakes and and and sort of. You [00:15:05] must now be in touch with loads of different labs. Does does is that true. [00:15:10] Is is each lab very different because of this fact that people are just making it up or [00:15:15] is there has there been like a professionalisation?

Simon Caxton: I always used to think that people didn’t have the same problems [00:15:20] that we had, and every lab was different and we were doing something wrong, and then you [00:15:25] speak to them and they have exactly the same problems, the same problems with staff, the same problem [00:15:30] with work coming in and impressions and preps, things going missing [00:15:35] in the post. The same the couriers they use, everybody has the same. I think it’s the same if [00:15:40] if that’s the standardisation, that’s it. We all have the same problems. Um, I [00:15:45] think with digital coming in now, that has started to standardise things [00:15:50] a little more with designs and people designing [00:15:55] work as well. Although there’s I’ve had a few people say to me, [00:16:00] oh, you can just get someone in who’s good on a computer and they can design, but yes, [00:16:05] they can. But going back to what you said earlier, you get people that make these beautiful looking [00:16:10] restorations, but they’re not functioning properly. They can they can fill a space [00:16:15] with a software design. But they don’t look [00:16:20] at the path of its excursion and the bite. So [00:16:25] you may get a lovely looking ground. You come to fit it. It could be as high as you like, really tight [00:16:30] contacts. So I think we try and the technicians we have here [00:16:35] that we bring on to CAD cam, we try and get them to do still diagnostic waxing by hand, [00:16:40] finishing the work themselves. So once they’ve designed it, they’ve got to finish it as well so [00:16:45] they can see the problems. Because if they’re getting problems at the next stage, [00:16:50] then the dentist is going to get problems coming to fix it. So they’ve [00:16:55] got they’ve got to learn that way. So CAD has standardise it a [00:17:00] little, but it’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Your work done with CAD now.

Simon Caxton: Um, I think [00:17:05] 80% of our income in work is CAD. So [00:17:10] intraoral scanners, most of it is designed by CAD. Now, I still do [00:17:15] quite a bit of, uh, feldspathic work like refractory veneers and things. They’ve, [00:17:20] they’ve come fashionable again I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that like contact lens veneer. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. So [00:17:25] yeah. So a lot of those still use the old techniques like duplicating [00:17:30] models and foil veneers, things like that. But yeah, all [00:17:35] of our posterior work is pretty much done CAD. Now we don’t really build anything up. And [00:17:40] in that respect. So.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me your training [00:17:45] when you say college to become a technician. How long is that?

Simon Caxton: So when I did it, [00:17:50] it was for a day. So a four year day release, one [00:17:55] day a week. And we it was broken up in each year. So first [00:18:00] year was sort of your basics and fundamental kind of stuff. So it was like basic blocks and [00:18:05] special trays, anatomy, things like that. Second year was removable. [00:18:10] Third year was also again never done any ortho since then. And the last stage [00:18:15] was crown and bridge, which was great for me. But I was like, I had to wait four [00:18:20] years to get to the bit that I really knew how to do, but now there [00:18:25] are. I think they do degree courses that are about 2 or 3 years. [00:18:30] I’m not sure. There are still day release courses. One of our, [00:18:35] um, trainees here is on a day release course. She’s an accidental nurse [00:18:40] who decided she’d had enough of nursing and was a bit arty and decided to come into this, which [00:18:45] is good. She’s doing really well. But yeah, the college is. Now that there’s not [00:18:50] enough of them, there’s not enough people coming into the trade that that that is.

Payman Langroudi: A and when you [00:18:55] when you get when you get a new person in the lab, how long does it take you to work out if that guy [00:19:00] is, you know, knows his stuff or is good? If it can tell pretty [00:19:05] quickly. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: If it’s a trainee, you can normally tell within sort of 3 to [00:19:10] 6 months. I’d say that. And they normally start off pretty good. [00:19:15] They’re quite keen. We used to do like a three month probation period, but we extended that [00:19:20] to six for trainees because say they start off very keen and want to know [00:19:25] everything and then they settle in and then it’s more down to their attitude to [00:19:30] work I suppose with any same with any job. But you can also then start to tell the more [00:19:35] you give them to do their manual dexterity, whether they can do [00:19:40] that, they might have the the right attitude, but they might not be actually necessarily be able to [00:19:45] to work with it.

Payman Langroudi: And so you have to make an assessment of can I teach this person. [00:19:50] Yeah. Or are there some things that can’t be taught?

Simon Caxton: I think there’s some things.

Payman Langroudi: That can’t be level of [00:19:55] artistry. Yeah. Like a your eyes basically. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: And the art [00:20:00] history sort of level of it comes into it. I mean they may have a really good knowledge of [00:20:05] how things work and how to do things, but if you can’t build [00:20:10] up a crowd or finish a crown, then, I mean, that’s our finished product at the end of the [00:20:15] day. That’s why people keep coming back. And yeah, yeah, you can [00:20:20] you can tell pretty quickly from that.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me you did your you did your college. What [00:20:25] did you do next? Did you go get a job at a lab.

Simon Caxton: So no. So the the apprenticeship [00:20:30] was four days in a lab. So the, the lab that I went to for an interview was, [00:20:35] um, all NHS work. This was sort of mid, mid 90s 93 [00:20:40] I started. So it was all NHS work, um, and [00:20:45] quite a high volume of NHS work as well. We were doing [00:20:50] between 100 and £120 a day, um, between [00:20:55] four people, and I was one of them as a trainee. So it was a real.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:21:00] old way as well. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Everything that precious metal, um, which [00:21:05] you wouldn’t do now, um, just for the sheer cost of it. Um. [00:21:10] Yeah. So I did four days a week in the lab, one day at college, and then [00:21:15] when I qualified, I decided, well, when I qualified is when I [00:21:20] then applied for the Metropolitan Police because, um, I thought it would be a given [00:21:25] because in those days, uh, one of the stipulation was you had to be over six foot two and [00:21:30] I’m six foot five, so I thought, I’m definitely going to get in here, but no. So [00:21:35] I then because I got the knock back from the police and that was what [00:21:40] I really wanted to do then actually was wasn’t really what I wanted to do. But [00:21:45] I finished the apprenticeship, I went travelling to Australia for a few months and then came [00:21:50] back. And then because I didn’t really know how to do anything else, I [00:21:55] kind of got a job. In a lab again. And I got a job [00:22:00] as a freelance technician, and I worked in three labs. Um, six days a [00:22:05] week because that was what was available. And I did that for probably [00:22:10] about 18 months. And then one of the labs there was a really good lab [00:22:15] and all private work. It was only like a one man sort of lab. [00:22:20] And that’s where I really wanted to work, because I knew I could learn a lot there, [00:22:25] and I did. So I managed to get five days a week there and stayed [00:22:30] there for 11 years.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. Which lab was that?

Simon Caxton: That was, [00:22:35] uh, amdec. Ropsten. Oh, really? Yeah. So we have met before. [00:22:40] Payman. I don’t know if you remember me on on the, um. No action courses. [00:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, on the course.

Simon Caxton: Yeah, yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: It was at that point [00:22:50] you were with Rob? Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So I used to do the lab work for the courses.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:22:55] see, I see, I see. So. So then tell me about the time you decided [00:23:00] I’m going to go out on my own. Well.

Simon Caxton: When I started as an apprentice, I always thought, [00:23:05] like, oh, maybe I could do this on my own. Like, I could see what? And it was [00:23:10] always an ambition of mine to do it. Yeah. I never really wanted to leave where I was, [00:23:15] but I didn’t see any way around doing [00:23:20] doing it any other way, really. I, I wanted the recognition for the work I was [00:23:25] doing. I think that’s what a lot of technicians don’t get. They don’t get [00:23:30] the recognition for the work they do. As you said at the beginning, the unsung heroes really, I think [00:23:35] without wanting to blow my own trumpet, it’s well, if we probably do get a blame for [00:23:40] a lot of stuff that don’t turn up on time, and I think that doesn’t fit. But [00:23:45] when it does go right and I see it a lot now on social media, these dentists [00:23:50] putting cases up, the technician very, very rarely gets a mention. [00:23:55] And it is a team effort when we’re half of that. So [00:24:00] a team that’s put that together. So yeah, I wanted to [00:24:05] get recognition for what I did and I wanted to do things my way. [00:24:10] I think when you work for somebody else, you can you sort of toe the line, really. [00:24:15] You have to kind of do things the way they want to do it. And I wanted to do things [00:24:20] my way, and I wanted to do a lot more courses. I wanted to learn a lot more. I’d [00:24:25] say I get really involved. I really, I really want to know stuff [00:24:30] like, I love doing a course. People that know me like I’ve I’ve [00:24:35] been on loads, I’ve seen some of the best technicians in the world and I’ve spent a lot [00:24:40] of money on courses. So I was trying to totally up the other day, and I reckon I’ve spent over £35,000 on [00:24:45] courses just in the last 15 years. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: So was Lee your partner [00:24:50] from the beginning? Yes.

Simon Caxton: So I knew Lee from college. So, um, we [00:24:55] started college at the same time, and, uh, we both live quite close [00:25:00] to each other, so we always stayed in touch. And then he came to work with us at Amdec [00:25:05] as well. It’s a bit controversial because we both left at the same time to, to [00:25:10] set up. Yeah, they go down too. Well, I bet.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I bet. [00:25:15]

Simon Caxton: So, um.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about the thought processes. Like, you know, I guess [00:25:20] you decided you were going to do this and and did you take to business ownership? Well, [00:25:25] were you worried about it? What did you do? Did you have to save money and [00:25:30] and get a loan and. Just talk me through the process of actually making that [00:25:35] leap because it’s it’s a massive leap, right? Just like an associate going to become a principal. [00:25:40] Such a big thing to do. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So like, I mean, I’ve [00:25:45] got a well paid job and and you want to make this [00:25:50] leap, as you say. And and it is I had a young family. I had two children under [00:25:55] two. So yeah, it was and it was a point where for [00:26:00] me, it was now or never. But one of the. How old were you? I was 37. [00:26:05] Yeah. 3637 something of that. And [00:26:10] I kept saying to Lee, do you want to start a lab? Do you want to start a lab? And he’s like, no, [00:26:15] no. And then one day I said to him, like, just tongue in cheek, you want to start [00:26:20] a lab? And he went, yeah, I do. And I was like, really? And he’s like, yeah, I want to do it. [00:26:25] So okay, so we looked into it and it was all done. We had [00:26:30] a little bit of savings, but it was all bank loans and credit cards. Yeah, just [00:26:35] maxed them out. We went unpaid for the first three months. Luckily, [00:26:40] we had a couple of people that, uh, knew we were leaving. [00:26:45] And then.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How does that how does the goodwill piece work in labs? Is that is [00:26:50] similar? Is it similar to a practice like an associate when he leaves the practice really shouldn’t be taking [00:26:55] patients with him. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: There’s no goodwill sort of thing. There’s no goodwill.

Payman Langroudi: Is that not [00:27:00] a thing? Is that not a thing with labs at all? Yeah, well.

Simon Caxton: It is, but I is there.

Payman Langroudi: Not a contract [00:27:05] that says, hey, don’t take my customers?

Simon Caxton: Um, no, no no, no, [00:27:10] there’s nothing. There was nothing in my contract. Um, I couldn’t [00:27:15] work within I think it was 12 miles of of of the [00:27:20] lab. But there was I mean, I think as a. An etiquette [00:27:25] thing. You shouldn’t do it. I mean, we never actually, we did. And hand on heart, I didn’t [00:27:30] approach anybody. And I still maintain that to this day. It’s a fight, what [00:27:35] people say. But, um, it’s just when social media was kind of, [00:27:40] sort of kicking off, like. So it was still early days with Facebook and [00:27:45] there was no real Instagram, but I just put out my intentions, what I was [00:27:50] doing on Facebook, and people found out that way. And. [00:27:55] When they found when they knew we’d actually left, they got in contact [00:28:00] then. So would you would.

Payman Langroudi: You say you were profitable in the first year? Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Oh, [00:28:05] brilliant. So we started in August 2010 [00:28:10] and by January 2011 we needed more staff. [00:28:15] We had so much work with, well, two people anyway. [00:28:20] We didn’t know what to do. And then we were thinking, have we done the right thing here?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:28:25] because there’s those growing pains as well, right? You know, like you suddenly [00:28:30] you need more people. The culture changes. How many people were you when you sold it?

Simon Caxton: Uh, [00:28:35] I.

Payman Langroudi: Eight in total.

Simon Caxton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that eight [00:28:40] technicians or is that eight humans?

Simon Caxton: So seven technicians and one admin. But [00:28:45] since we’ve, we’ve um, the takeover, we’ve [00:28:50] actually added another admin because we just can’t keep up with. [00:28:55] All that side of it, and I do. Is there a.

Payman Langroudi: Simon? Is there an element of a technician [00:29:00] eventually getting to a point where he doesn’t do the work and everyone else is doing the work, or is that not [00:29:05] the kind of technician you want to be or what?

Simon Caxton: It’s not really the kind of technician I want to be because I [00:29:10] do enjoy doing what I do. I do like making making things [00:29:15] and stuff. Yeah. And getting getting my hands dirty. Still, I think I’d much rather do that [00:29:20] than have to run a business and. Yeah, and do all the [00:29:25] paperwork and sort out finances.

Payman Langroudi: But there is that other type of technician as well, isn’t there, [00:29:30] that you see it sometimes where it’s the senior guy, the one, the guy with the name on the door. Yeah. Isn’t [00:29:35] the one making. That’s kind of what you were saying. You weren’t getting the, the, the kudos [00:29:40] for the work you were doing was that the situation was that kind of the situation?

Simon Caxton: Yeah, that’s how I felt as well. But [00:29:45] I think it’s a bit like some the celebrity chefs now as well. But they have their [00:29:50] name on the door. But you go to their restaurant, they’re not cooking. Yeah, [00:29:55] yeah, yeah. But I think some people or some clients have got send work [00:30:00] because they want me to do the work. And I’m sure that’s the same with other labs as well. The other technicians [00:30:05] that have got a good reputation, they, they get the work because [00:30:10] people want them to do the work. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, [00:30:15] I would rather be on the tools at the bench doing the work. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s quickly let’s quickly while we’re on it. Let’s quickly sort of fast forward to the to the end of that [00:30:25] journey where you sold up. How did how did that come about? Were you looking [00:30:30] to sell? Did they come and find you? What was the process? Um, so.

Simon Caxton: No, it wasn’t looking to sell [00:30:35] at all? No. And we’d been approached by [00:30:40] another corporate to see if he was interested and we wasn’t. And then [00:30:45] Ashley Byrne, who had joined chorus last year. Uh, [00:30:50] he was the first.

Payman Langroudi: He wasn’t the first one.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. So we met him. Well. [00:30:55] Bumped into him in a bar at the Addy last year and we [00:31:00] were just chatting and then we asked him the question, so why have you joined? Chorus. [00:31:05] Like any sort of explain why and his thought process behind [00:31:10] it and why he’d done it, and he said, there, I’m glad I’ve bumped into [00:31:15] you actually, because we’d like you to join as well. Was that? Ah, okay. [00:31:20] And mainly had a conversation. Quite a few conversations [00:31:25] as to the pros and cons for it, and [00:31:30] we can only really see pros for for us. And so [00:31:35] that’s why we decided to go down that route.

Payman Langroudi: How are how are labs valued? [00:31:40] Is it just like like practices. Is it like a multiple of your EBITDA EBITDA? [00:31:45]

Simon Caxton: Yeah, yeah. So um.

Payman Langroudi: But then is there to explain it to me. Like what what [00:31:50] kind of EBITDA is good EBITDA and what kind of EBITDA isn’t good? Like what what makes a [00:31:55] lab like increase the multiple?

Simon Caxton: I don’t know, because it’s just another thing I’ve had to learn. [00:32:00] I’ve I didn’t even know what EBITDA was when until last year I had to [00:32:05] Google it and work it out. And I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Not. No. Okay. My question kind of my question is if it’s let’s [00:32:10] say the lab is turning over £2 million, if it’s 2 million NHS pounds, is that [00:32:15] as valuable as 2 million private pounds for the sake of the argument?

Simon Caxton: Uh, yeah, probably. I mean, because [00:32:20] the actual doesn’t make a difference. No, because the type of work you do from an NHS crowns were [00:32:25] private crown other than maybe materials, the work should be the same. [00:32:30] That’s why when we we set up the lab, we didn’t decide. We decided we just wanted to do [00:32:35] private work. But the actual type of restoration you’re making is [00:32:40] the same. You might be able to to skimp on a use a cheaper material here and there. [00:32:45] Um, but the processes you do is exactly the same. So I [00:32:50] don’t really see that there should be any difference in or there should only really be one price [00:32:55] for a crown, um, because you’re doing the same thing and [00:33:00] by calling it an NHS crown or whatever, or giving it to [00:33:05] like a junior technician to do. You’re devaluing it and they’re not getting the best work. [00:33:10] Really. That makes sense.

Payman Langroudi: It does. It does give us the lay of the land [00:33:15] right now. Yeah. For someone from an outsider kind of looking in and at the [00:33:20] dental technician, the dental technology sector in the UK, what’s the lay of the land? [00:33:25] It’s not. What, because there’s been loads of changes. I know there’s been loads [00:33:30] of outsourcing that um to abroad and then you’ve got [00:33:35] the changes in the NHS, private system itself. Just give us a, give us an outline [00:33:40] of the lay of the land, land. And where do you sit in that? I know you’re a very, very private and [00:33:45] award winning and so forth. Right.

Simon Caxton: So, um, it sounds [00:33:50] great from my point of view because there’s very there’s less technicians [00:33:55] now. Why? Well, I think Covid didn’t help. [00:34:00] So since Covid there were unregistered GDC registering 2020, [00:34:05] there were 7500 technicians in the UK. [00:34:10] There’s 5000 registered technicians now. And well, [00:34:15] there’s there’s not enough people coming into it to there’s more people leaving than there [00:34:20] is. Joining the education doesn’t help. I think [00:34:25] there’s only something like 6 or 7 colleges or universities that are doing Dental [00:34:30] technology now. The average age of technicians doesn’t help. I think [00:34:35] it’s going up. Yeah. What do you think the average age of a technician is in the UK today? [00:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: 30, 30.

Simon Caxton: 56.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:34:45] average.

Simon Caxton: I’ve actually got some stats on my phone. Oh my goodness, I am so. [00:34:50] Nearly 40%. Of technicians are over 55. [00:34:55] Wow and 22% are over 65. A [00:35:00] less than 16% are under 44.

Payman Langroudi: 22% are [00:35:05] over 65.

Simon Caxton: That’s crazy, isn’t it? So in a few years time. [00:35:10] It’s if they’re lucky.

Payman Langroudi: Enough that 22% gone.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. So yeah. [00:35:15] And there’s not 22% new technicians coming in. So. [00:35:20] Yeah. In that respect, that doesn’t look too, too good. Um. [00:35:25]

Payman Langroudi: But when you say Covid had a lot to do with it, what does a lot of labs go under [00:35:30] during Covid?

Simon Caxton: Some. Some went under, especially NHS sort of level labs. And [00:35:35] then a lot of techniques, especially, uh, foreign technicians, [00:35:40] went home during Covid and then never came back.

Payman Langroudi: And then Brexit. [00:35:45]

Simon Caxton: Brexit had a big part, part of it as well. And [00:35:50] technicians that were coming over with qualifications, the GDC wouldn’t recognise [00:35:55] them. So they some of them are working in the UK but they’re not [00:36:00] GDC registered. We’ve got one ourself who is a very talented technician [00:36:05] from Hungary. She’s tried to register with the GDC, but [00:36:10] she’s got to jump through all these hoops with all the paperwork and everything. She just gave up in the end and [00:36:15] she’s more than capable of doing the work. But I think during Covid as [00:36:20] well, there was technicians, especially in the sort of lower end of the the scale, like the NHS [00:36:25] labs, they could earn more driving for Tesco’s or [00:36:30] doing other jobs which were less stressful than being a dental technician [00:36:35] and. Not not the money. I mean, we always [00:36:40] try and. Pay a little bit over the odds for technicians. Keep [00:36:45] your people happy. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Just because it’s hot. If you find [00:36:50] a good technician, you’ve got to retain. It’s like any job, I think. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lock and key.

Simon Caxton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:36:55] agree, so. But go on. The lay of the land insomuch as. [00:37:00] Tell me the general makeup of a of an NHS lab. Is it a much bigger organisation [00:37:05] or smaller? Not necessarily. There’s not because you guys are eight, [00:37:10] eight. Kind of. You’re a boutique lab, right?

Simon Caxton: Yeah, I’d say so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the big labs doing? [00:37:15] What’s the story with them?

Simon Caxton: But the bigger labs tend to do more full service [00:37:20] laboratories, so they’ll do prosthetics. And although they’ll do a lot more [00:37:25] disciplines, whereas the smaller labs tend to stick to your lovely prosthetic labs and your average [00:37:30] labs.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any idea? Do you have any idea of what percentage is being outsourced [00:37:35] to China or wherever?

Simon Caxton: Not outsourced? No. Uh, China. So that [00:37:40] kind of all got, um, sort of a few years back. That was [00:37:45] the, uh, thing. The thing. Yeah. But then I think again, with Brexit [00:37:50] and, and whatever the import sort of side of it, that slowed everything down. [00:37:55] And I don’t know, I’m aware of the outsourcing part isn’t as much [00:38:00] of a threat to Dental labs now as it was as it was. I think the biggest threat is lack [00:38:05] of technicians and and most people and most lab owners. You say [00:38:10] you speak to them, they can’t find good technicians.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:38:15] Simon, look, if you rewind 20 years, do [00:38:20] you think technicians were more valued then than they are now?

Simon Caxton: No, I think they’re more valued now, [00:38:25] I think, because.

Payman Langroudi: Then how can it be that they’re not getting paid enough to want to become technicians? [00:38:30] I think what’s going on? What’s the story there?

Simon Caxton: I don’t know. It’s not unless [00:38:35] you know about Dental technology or. Yeah, you’re not going to come into it. I [00:38:40] fell into it. Uh, Lee fell into it. He he leads [00:38:45] a qualified stonemason. So. And it was only because he couldn’t find a job as a stonemason. [00:38:50] His friend, who was doing a part time job at a lab, said, oh, we need someone part time [00:38:55] just to make some models. And he’s like, oh, I can make models. I’m a stonemason. And [00:39:00] then he’s been doing it ever since. There’s [00:39:05] not many people that go looking for Dental technology. I say they either fall into [00:39:10] it that they even know someone who’s already in dentistry, or [00:39:15] it happens by mistake. But I think we’re more valued now, especially by dentists. [00:39:20] I mean, because there isn’t many of us about and especially like I mean, [00:39:25] I’ve been doing it 30 years, people with our knowledge and our experience. We [00:39:30] get a lot of, um, young dentists that get in contact with [00:39:35] us and want to know. And we’ve had, um, know about the lab side [00:39:40] of it. We’ve had dentists come to the lab, spend a couple of days here [00:39:45] just to see what we do, and they haven’t got a clue. Some of them, especially ones straight [00:39:50] out of, uh, university, because I don’t think if I’m right, [00:39:55] I don’t think they teach the lab side so much now as they used to. So [00:40:00] yeah, they don’t really know. What goes on in a lab. [00:40:05]

Payman Langroudi: And I found I found one of the best ways to know, like, who’s [00:40:10] a great dentist is to go and ask technicians.

Simon Caxton: 100%. I always say, if people ask [00:40:15] me, do you see?

Payman Langroudi: You see the actual work, don’t you? I mean, I know a thousand dentists here, but I don’t know [00:40:20] what the actual work is like. Yeah, I see the end result. Right. But that’s, that’s that’s [00:40:25] not a true picture of what’s going on sometimes, you know, picture before and after doesn’t show me [00:40:30] anything, does it. As far as what happened. No. But you see it all.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. But those before [00:40:35] and afters they. They tell a story of this is what we started [00:40:40] with. This is what we finished. Yeah. They don’t tell you the bit in the middle. So we [00:40:45] might do a great case of a dentist that puts it on Instagram and say, oh, look at this. [00:40:50] This is the and it’s like, wow, that looks brilliant. But they don’t see all the stages [00:40:55] that have gone to get there. And the plan in. The [00:41:00] fight is of things that have gone wrong on that case, that we’ve been redone. [00:41:05] And, um, so you might get a dentist call you and say, oh, I’ve seen your [00:41:10] work. It looks great. I want it to look like this case. And then they’ll send you something and say, well, [00:41:15] I can’t do that with this. This. You’re not going to get the same thing. And then you’ve got to try and sort of talk [00:41:20] them through it. And plan it. And and I don’t always [00:41:25] want to do that. There are lots of people and there’s probably lots of technicians as well that cut corners and. [00:41:30] Just it’s the planning side. And that’s where. [00:41:35]

Payman Langroudi: I find, you know, I mean, okay, I wasn’t I wasn’t a pretty I wasn’t [00:41:40] a very accomplished dentist. You know, I gave up quite quickly. [00:41:45] Um, dentistry. And I think it takes a good, good, good ten years to become a good dentist. [00:41:50] I feel like, you know, once you’ve been through all the different sort of situations that can come up. [00:41:55] I never did ten years, but but one thing that I sort of figured out [00:42:00] early on was how much you can learn from your technician. I [00:42:05] mean, some of the best things that I learned were from my technician, you know, and [00:42:10] getting the technician involved early on in the process before you cut. Yeah. So [00:42:15] that so that together you can say, right. You know, you can I can use some porcelain that’s slightly more [00:42:20] opaque or the 100 different variables of things you could try. [00:42:25] Um, people don’t realise. And by the way, I think the same thing about salespeople, [00:42:30] you know, a lot, a lot of dentists see salespeople as a pain in the neck. You know, I don’t want to see that guy busy. [00:42:35] I want to drill teeth or whatever. But salespeople have got, you know, market knowledge [00:42:40] and it’s gold. Yeah. Do you have that? I mean, what would be your best case scenario is that is that it [00:42:45] to see the patient before or see pictures before the guy even goes ahead? Yeah. Do you have that relationship [00:42:50] with some dentists. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: And and new clients as well that ring up and ask me [00:42:55] to do a case before I’ve even decided on what we’re going to do and how we’re [00:43:00] going to do it. I need to to see the beginning so that that planning part is key. [00:43:05] Uh, they might say to me, I want to do this case and I will use all feldspathic [00:43:10] veneers. Is that why do you want to use Feldspathic? I think that will be the best case [00:43:15] or that would be best. You know that now. I don’t think it will. So I want to do a [00:43:20] all ceramic crown on a post and core or an implant and say, well, a [00:43:25] good old fashioned PFM might be best there because we’re going to mask everything out. It’s not [00:43:30] always like that product might not be the best answer [00:43:35] for that case. It’s not the best solution. And we’ve got a I like to have more, [00:43:40] uh, like the control over that. If people insist on something, I’ll do it for [00:43:45] them. I will point out that the the the shortfall in zone out and where it could [00:43:50] go wrong. And normally when you say if it goes wrong, you’ll be paying again, then they [00:43:55] start listening to you. I said.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I mean, it’s funny because [00:44:00] you got the one side of it, which is what you just described there. I mean, we get it all the time. We get terrible impressions sometimes [00:44:05] for for bleaching trays. Yeah. And we call them up and say, look, we need another impression. [00:44:10] And often they say, just go ahead and do it right.

Simon Caxton: You’re just going to come out with the classic line of do [00:44:15] your best. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, do your best, do your best. That is [00:44:20] the and I don’t know, we’re internally we had a whole situation about this about because [00:44:25] at the end of the day if, if then the the bleaching doesn’t work as well. That that that [00:44:30] does reflect on our brand as well. Yeah. And at what point do we refuse the [00:44:35] impression and say you have to retake. We’re not we’re not making it. Yeah. Because it’s it’s [00:44:40] slightly different with us. Right. Insomuch as that, you know, the brand gets gets its own Google reviews [00:44:45] and things. Yeah. So we can’t have it not working. But people get very violently angry [00:44:50] sometimes if you tell them that I do.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. And yeah. And [00:44:55] I’m glad you you’ve seen it from that side because that we get that all [00:45:00] the time. And I think some people don’t want to lose face with the patient [00:45:05] because they’ve got to get them back and redoing it again because then it looks reflects badly on them. [00:45:10] Um, yeah. And I always say that just tell them lab can’t do what [00:45:15] you’ve asked us to do. Blame. Blame me if you have to, I don’t care. Yeah. Um, I [00:45:20] mean, I’m not at the coalface. I don’t see them. So very rarely do I get to see patients. [00:45:25] Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And to be fair, to be fair, there is the other side of it. Yeah, that sometimes clinically, things [00:45:30] are so difficult. Oh, yeah. That is the best you can do. You know, like the patient won’t go back. He [00:45:35] won’t open his mouth or, or whatever it is. You know, there’s a particular reason why [00:45:40] it’s such a terrible situation. Yeah. Um, but but I think it comes down [00:45:45] to the collaboration, the communication between dentists and lab. Even though these [00:45:50] days, I’m sure, you know, with you and your customers, it’s all very like, you know, together [00:45:55] there isn’t best practice, hasn’t really been figured out or no one really taught us [00:46:00] here to be very collaborative with our technician. And and [00:46:05] I think it’s such an important thing is probably [00:46:10] the most important thing to be able to communicate quickly and effectively [00:46:15] with the technician. What percentage of cases do you end up actually coming in and doing [00:46:20] a shade or, you know, seeing the patient?

Simon Caxton: I couldn’t say percentages, but I probably [00:46:25] see on average about five patients a week to do shade matching. Yeah. Say [00:46:30] daddy and it is normally just anterior posterior [00:46:35] stuff that they do themselves, but it is normally the single central [00:46:40] or single lateral or smile cases. I might see someone that’s, um, been [00:46:45] in tents for a week or so and we do a review and sort of guide [00:46:50] them through a shade. And some people already have in their mind [00:46:55] they want white, they just want a white, white set of teeth and that’s it. And then others [00:47:00] want white, but they want him to look natural. And you have to kind of try and explain to them. Which [00:47:05] shades will work best for them. And I think when they come into [00:47:10] the lab as well, they. They’re amazed that what they say because it [00:47:15] half of them come in and say, oh, do you make them here? And it’s like, yeah, we make everything here. [00:47:20] And because where we do the show taking it at area, it’s like a glass partition [00:47:25] off to the rest of the lab so they can see out and see everybody [00:47:30] working away. And. All the machinery go in and and a [00:47:35] lot of them are genuinely interested in what’s going on and how [00:47:40] their teeth are being made, and that’s not really something they see. So. It. [00:47:45] I think it gives a bit of added value as well to the case [00:47:50] when the patient comes down. And definitely. So definitely. Yeah. So we [00:47:55] see a lot of people, um.

Payman Langroudi: Simon, tell me from the anatomy perspective because, [00:48:00] you know, it’s funny, since this sort of composite bonding thing is taken off, a lot, dentists [00:48:05] are having to learn the very basics of line angles and, [00:48:10] and just, just, just smile design. Right. Actually making making the teeth themselves. [00:48:15] Right. And for instance, we run a composite bonding course and Dipesh [00:48:20] who’s the teacher? His brother is a technician at Palmer. Right. Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:25] And and the, the amount of stuff that Dipesh has picked up from hit and, [00:48:30] and the kind of things that he says that. Oh yeah. My brother [00:48:35] would do it this way. It’s it’s almost like the teaching of anatomy [00:48:40] and shade is separate for dentists and for technicians. We’re taught separate [00:48:45] things, different things and, and and yet we both need to get to this final [00:48:50] result right of the tooth. Um, so it’s a bit of an unfair [00:48:55] question what I’m going to ask you next here, but it’s kind of like, what’s the crux? [00:49:00] What’s the crux of making two centrals look great?

Simon Caxton: Make them look great.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:49:05] Where do you start? Where do you. What do you really? I’m familiar at the medial line angles. Right. Obviously. [00:49:10] Yeah. They have to be the same.

Simon Caxton: So when I, if I was to build up two centrals together, I always [00:49:15] start with the left one. Start with just. [00:49:20] Oh, sorry. Oh, so it’s patience, right? My left. Because the model is upside down. [00:49:25] And so I always start with that one. And then. Two Centrals are, though. They’re similar. [00:49:30] They’re not identical. And that’s the hardest thing when people say, I want the Centrals to look [00:49:35] exactly the same. When nature did not exactly the same. So that’s [00:49:40] the hardest thing, is when people say they’ve got to be identical and the gingival [00:49:45] contour is different. You might have one, uh, gingival margin higher than the other. [00:49:50] And. I think when dentists do composites, they’re building [00:49:55] the composite onto Unprepped, which is something. Yeah. Yeah. The majority [00:50:00] of the ones I see where they’ve been added to, and that’s really hard because [00:50:05] you’re working with a structure underneath that’s already going in one direction, [00:50:10] or it’s going to be thinner or more bulky in areas. What we have [00:50:15] with generally, or we like to have is something that’s been tracked down and we’ve got a reasonable [00:50:20] amount of room and space, and we’re recreating that whole thing. Then [00:50:25] we’ve got more scope to to build those line angles in and the [00:50:30] bow bosses and make it look more natural. But as far as [00:50:35] shapes go, it’s get one looking right and then get the other one to kind of match it. And [00:50:40] get. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: What are you what are you looking out for specifically? Like give [00:50:45] me, give me like some for you. It’s probably totally second nature now that you just do it. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So. It’s [00:50:50] hard to say that each case is different. So [00:50:55] yeah, you look at I look at the laterals and work out whether they’re an oval [00:51:00] shape, a square shape, a more triangular shape. So you’ve got [00:51:05] there’s no point to putting an oval central next to the triangular lateral, because the [00:51:10] rest of the teeth have got that triangular shape. And you’ve got to get the the length right, the incisal [00:51:15] edge position right, you want it to be depending on the way the [00:51:20] patient wants it, if they want it to look natural, then they’re going to be slightly longer than the laterals, [00:51:25] about the same length as the canines. But the way some of the market’s [00:51:30] going now, everyone wants their straight the same length and it’s horrendous. It’s so [00:51:35] hard to do. It goes against what we’ve been told to do. Um yeah. So [00:51:40] getting that shape right, getting the proportions right. The [00:51:45] length width ratio. Yeah. And then I think that that’s what I [00:51:50] kind of like about canines.

Payman Langroudi: Canines are canines are challenging teeth isn’t it. To, to build. [00:51:55] What’s the key to that. Is it the two faces of it.

Simon Caxton: Uh, yeah. The kind of [00:52:00] three. So get the cervical. Uh bogosity. Right. And then I [00:52:05] look at the mesial and distal sort of line angles. And again, some are more [00:52:10] rounded than others. Some have a nice slight, sharp, uh, cusp to it. [00:52:15] Others are quite worn and flat. So I think if you’re matching a single tooth into [00:52:20] existing dentition, it’s just looking at what’s around in [00:52:25] the rest of the arch or, and looking at the, the wear patterns of the other teeth [00:52:30] as well, because you can use that to your advantage to if something’s guiding [00:52:35] across and you can see that it, it’s flat on the centre or the canine [00:52:40] or. Yeah, the canine or the lateral, you can build that wear into a central when [00:52:45] it’s the same each. Yeah. Each tooth is. Yeah, each mouth.

Payman Langroudi: You guys [00:52:50] have like a signature. Like like if you look at a case and you can tell that’s Lee’s work [00:52:55] because of just the, just the way he does things.

Simon Caxton: Um, Lee’s Lee doesn’t do ceramics, so [00:53:00] I’d be able to. I’d be able to spot these a mile off if he did. Um, [00:53:05] or someone else’s?

Payman Langroudi: Or could someone look at your work and say, that’s a Simon case?

Simon Caxton: Because [00:53:10] my shapes are very similar. You might get the triangular or the oval, but [00:53:15] I tend to do, especially if a smile case. They all look the same. I’ve got one shape that I like to do and [00:53:20] I really. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny. Is it because you get that with dentists as well? [00:53:25] You get you could, you could kind of tell the, the, the signature of that dentist [00:53:30] in his, in his composite sometimes.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. And you can tell as well like if they’re left and right handed, especially [00:53:35] if they’re prepping a whole arch because all the preps face one direction. [00:53:40] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But let’s, [00:53:45] let’s talk about you’re kind of at the forefront of things. Right. You’re trying to, you know, be [00:53:50] very digital, very private, very aesthetic. Tell me about things that [00:53:55] being at the forefront has obviously its, its benefits. But sometimes a new [00:54:00] thing comes along and you’re pushing the boundaries and you try something [00:54:05] and it might not necessarily work out because it’s a new thing. Right? You [00:54:10] know, improvement is, by its nature, two steps forward, one step back, isn’t it? You sort of tell [00:54:15] me about times where that’s happened to you and where it’s bit you, you know, like where it’s, I don’t know, some, some [00:54:20] company came out with an amazing new idea. And then later on you found out they’re all breaking [00:54:25] or something like that. A story like that would help me.

Simon Caxton: Uh, so we had [00:54:30] a lot of problems with there was, there was a stage a few years back where there was a [00:54:35] material, uh, peak, uh, um, peak material. It’s like a [00:54:40] composite, like a resin. So people were using it to do full arch sort [00:54:45] of restorations and bonding composite to it, especially for like all fours. And we [00:54:50] did a couple ourself. But what happens is that the peak material was [00:54:55] quite flexible, even though it’s very, very strong, it’s quite flexible. But the composite [00:55:00] that was being bonded to it.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t a different.

Simon Caxton: Flex. Yeah. So [00:55:05] you were getting cracking. Um, and because you would bond like venture [00:55:10] teeth to it and they’d pop off. So we had a few things like that [00:55:15] that we, we, we did a couple of big cases that we had some failures with. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Was it a couple, was it like a couple of hundred?

Simon Caxton: No, because we didn’t really do lots [00:55:25] of those type of cases. Uh, but when they come out they look brilliant. And the thought behind [00:55:30] them is like, oh, you’re right. Yeah, we’re going to do that. We’re going to do it all this way now. And then they [00:55:35] started coming back and we was having problems with them. And it’s like, we’ve got to redo and like [00:55:40] redo our own costs as well because I. Um, is just [00:55:45] said earlier, like we like to do things how we want to do them, and we kind of gone down [00:55:50] that route and said, oh yeah, it’ll be fine. It wasn’t fine. Um, so [00:55:55] yeah, but sometimes, as you say, you have to take two steps forwards, go one step back. [00:56:00] And we learned from that. And it’s like we went back to how we used to do them. That [00:56:05] we tried it and didn’t work. I know it’s or have you been.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes an early adopter on something?

Simon Caxton: I [00:56:10] lost share time and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but like maybe if you maybe been an early [00:56:15] adopter on something, bought a piece of equipment for hundreds of thousands, it turned out to be a turkey. Has that happened? [00:56:20]

Simon Caxton: Uh. No, we haven’t done that. Luckily, [00:56:25] we did buy one of the a couple of the early printers that came out. Um, [00:56:30] and we didn’t get very good results with those. So no, I [00:56:35] think we’ve from our side of it just owning our own lab. We’ve [00:56:40] not done that. So thankfully.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Well we do we do like to discuss [00:56:45] mistakes on this pod. So tell me a mistake you’ve made then as a technician that [00:56:50] other technicians can learn from.

Simon Caxton: I was trying to think about this and and a lot of our mistakes [00:56:55] don’t don’t see the light of day. So we the dentist. I mean, we [00:57:00] dentists will get things that have gone wrong. I mean, I’ve built up a [00:57:05] small case in completely the wrong shade and sent it out. Uh, just because [00:57:10] I was busy didn’t really notice. I’ve got to get it done. I’ve got to get it. Get it [00:57:15] gone. Um, it’s being fitted tomorrow. Uh, I’ve done that. So, as I always [00:57:20] say to people, always read the ticket. And so I’m guilty of that. [00:57:25] I’ve fired a full arch of veneers on the wrong program [00:57:30] in the furnace and melted everything.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Simon Caxton: I’d like [00:57:35] that again. The night before that, that, just due to go out, sent a [00:57:40] rush case of a patient that was getting married to the wrong practice. [00:57:45] So it’s always.

Payman Langroudi: It’s always the ones you’re trying to help out.

Simon Caxton: And [00:57:50] so she was getting married. Uh, had to be there on this certain time and [00:57:55] whatever. Finished up the case up, put it on the side. And the person doing [00:58:00] the post put the wrong post label on it and sent it somewhere else. And so, [00:58:05] I mean, mistakes happen. Uh, I know that I’m not blaming them for that. It was just one of them things, but [00:58:10] it just happens to be that one that had to be there on that day.

Payman Langroudi: So what about [00:58:15] what about, like, um, like a business? What would you have done differently in the business?

Simon Caxton: Well [00:58:20] done differently.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, would you have grown quicker earlier, something like that, or at. [00:58:25]

Simon Caxton: The start, we always said we didn’t want to grow too big, and we wanted to try and keep it small. [00:58:30] And I think that the mistake from there was we [00:58:35] didn’t take on enough people and we tried to do too much. And that was [00:58:40] about, I would say, a big mistake because it had a big effect on me [00:58:45] and I couldn’t cope with it to the point that I wanted to walk away [00:58:50] as and really. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Anxiety.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. And overwhelmed. [00:58:55] And yeah, it was, it was bad. It was, I was, [00:59:00] I was really bad. It was like I, I think it’s because they’re trying to control too much [00:59:05] and trying to do too much and not trusting people to, to, to do other things. [00:59:10] And we didn’t get someone doing admin work for [00:59:15] about 4 or 5 years, maybe more. So we were trying to juggle that as well as [00:59:20] doing that like bench work as well. So.

Payman Langroudi: As [00:59:25] he would have not done that earlier.

Simon Caxton: Yeah, I think we should have, um, got more people in earlier. Um, [00:59:30] not necessarily to to grow bigger, but just to make life easier.

Payman Langroudi: Make [00:59:35] life easier?

Simon Caxton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you said you said you you still stay at the lab till seven at [00:59:40] night.

Simon Caxton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just I’ve noticed that with labs as well, labs do late nights. [00:59:45] So why is that?

Simon Caxton: I think it’s just the nature of the job. [00:59:50] I when I started deadlines. Yeah, deadlines. And when I started, one [00:59:55] of the first things that someone said to me was, this is not a 9 to 5 job. You you will. [01:00:00] Be here late. You will work weekends and a lot of people [01:00:05] did that, I think it. I think the deadlines are the. The [01:00:10] biggest thing, and especially running your own lab. And your name is above the door. [01:00:15] You’ve got to spend. Why do I spend a lot of time doing a case? [01:00:20] And you want it to be right because. You’re only as good as your [01:00:25] last case. If it’s not right, then people are not going to send you work. And there’s always that fear [01:00:30] of especially for me, there was always that fear of people not to send any more work in. So [01:00:35] but I know plenty of technicians. That go through [01:00:40] these stages of working late nights. And so I [01:00:45] think the latest I’ve been in the lab is 2:00 in the morning and then go [01:00:50] home and then back in at like 5 or 6:00 [01:00:55] and then do it all again. And I know lots of yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As a business owner, you kind [01:01:00] of think, all right, there are going to be times where the business just needs you completely. But [01:01:05] how do you persuade, you know, your other techs, the guys, the employees [01:01:10] to stay late? Do you pay extra? What do you do? Or is it just known? It’s known if there’s a deadline [01:01:15] everyone has to chip in. How does it work? Yeah, I think I mean.

Simon Caxton: I think it goes [01:01:20] to the individual as well. Um, and I think it’s the same with any industry, not just Dental laboratory. [01:01:25] Uh, laboratories is you get people that are conscientious [01:01:30] and will chip in and help some. You have to ask some just do it. [01:01:35] We’ve always said that if something needs to get done, we don’t expect you to stay and do it [01:01:40] for nothing. We will pay over time, but we got to a point where [01:01:45] we knew we were doing too much, and we didn’t want people to miss out on home [01:01:50] life and stuff as well. So we don’t we don’t make people stay. [01:01:55] I think if we really need need them to, we will, we will, we’ll ask. [01:02:00] But we understand if they can’t or they don’t want to, we pay them to [01:02:05] do a job from 9 to 5. And I think now going [01:02:10] forward, we we just need to get more people in if it gets too busy, [01:02:15] rather than expecting to put extra workloads onto other people. I mean, I’ve [01:02:20] done, I think like 27 days straight in the lab when we started [01:02:25] off like late, early, early mornings, late nights.

Simon Caxton: And [01:02:30] you can’t do that. And I wouldn’t want to expect that. And I don’t expect other people to [01:02:35] do that. So because it had a big effect on me and yeah, I, [01:02:40] one of the a guy that used to work with us just started up his own lab. And [01:02:45] those labs, you go through stages, it’s like feast or famine. You’ll have no work, and [01:02:50] then you’ll be absolutely snowed under. And you want to please those people. So you want to get [01:02:55] all the work that’s come in, you want to do because you haven’t had any and you don’t want to upset anybody. So you just [01:03:00] do it. And I think sometimes it can be. Detrimental to the [01:03:05] to what you’re trying to achieve because, yeah, you’re not doing your best. Like, [01:03:10] I wouldn’t want my tape made by someone who’s been up since 5:00 [01:03:15] in the morning and finishing my work at 1:00 the next morning. Yeah. [01:03:20] So you’ve got to take that into consideration as well. Um, but [01:03:25] I think, yeah, there’s there’s lots of labs, uh, technicians that do work weekends still and [01:03:30] do work late.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the culture, isn’t it? It’s in the culture of technicians, I’ve noticed. Yeah, I.

Simon Caxton: Think in [01:03:35] the older technicians as well. I think that’s just because the way not so much the younger ones now, [01:03:40] maybe because they’ve realised, like the older ones have realised [01:03:45] what’s and don’t want others to go through it like I have.

Payman Langroudi: So Simon, when you sold [01:03:50] this business, is there a period of time where you have to stay in it?

Simon Caxton: Uh, [01:03:55] there is, yeah. Um, but I’m not looking to go anywhere. [01:04:00] And I’m not just saying that I’m not looking to go anywhere anytime soon. You’re happy? Yeah. I’m happy doing what I do. [01:04:05] I made it.

Payman Langroudi: So in a way, you kind of took some money off the table. All the money off the table. [01:04:10] And now you’re an employee there. Is that how it works? Yeah.

Simon Caxton: That’s it. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing. [01:04:15] So what was your feeling on the day that you signed it away? Was it like pride? Was it relief? [01:04:20] Was it elation? Was it emptiness? Like a lot of people say they [01:04:25] feel empty when they sell their business. How did you feel? Probably a bit of all of those things.

Simon Caxton: I didn’t feel empty. [01:04:30] I felt excited because I feel. Yeah. And. That. [01:04:35] I mean, I felt pride as well because I’ve, I’ve not just me, but Lee as [01:04:40] well. We’ve built up this business that somebody else wants. So it’s got it’s got value for someone. But [01:04:45] yeah. Yeah, it did feel like we were given a little bit of ourselves [01:04:50] away because we’d built up this, this business, and we’ve put a lot of our heart [01:04:55] and soul into it over the last 15 years. But. I was excited because [01:05:00] we’re now part of this group, especially in the UK. There’s four labs in the in the group [01:05:05] and we’re almost like a bit of a Start-Up because we’re, we’re getting we’re starting [01:05:10] up the UK arm of the European. So we’re finding our feet [01:05:15] with that, and we’ve got processes that we need to put in place and systems that we need to put [01:05:20] in place. And it it gave us a bit of a, um, new lease of life, really. [01:05:25] I think we’ve come a bit stale doing our same [01:05:30] thing every day, turning up, making our cases and going home. And you say, why [01:05:35] I was still here till seven because I, I get in at eight. I go home at [01:05:40] seven. That’s my day.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you.

Simon Caxton: Do. Yeah. And that’s what I’ve done for the last [01:05:45] ten, 15 years.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go and buy something, go crazy by and buy [01:05:50] a fast car or something? Did you. I mean, did you enjoy it?

Simon Caxton: No, [01:05:55] I’ve got a I’ve got a phone. I’ve got a fast car. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:06:00] did you do? I mean, did you take more holidays or. You’re just working just as hard? [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Simon Caxton: Nothing’s really changed yet. I’m just carrying on the same. [01:06:10] When did you sell it?

Payman Langroudi: When did you sell it? December. Oh, I see, it’s very new.

Simon Caxton: Yeah. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s very new. All right. I’m gonna. So. Yeah. Call me when. Call me when you get the, you know, [01:06:20] flat in Miami.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m gonna.

Simon Caxton: Spend it all.

Payman Langroudi: On, uh.

Simon Caxton: Women cars and.

Payman Langroudi: Drink [01:06:25] and.

Simon Caxton: The rest I’m gonna waste.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. [01:06:30] Alex Higgins. Yeah. George Fest, I think, said that. How was it? [01:06:35] Was it was it?

Payman Langroudi: So, listen, man, um, it’s a lovely sort [01:06:40] of opening into this, this area of Dental, Tex. That I wanted to go into. Your [01:06:45] desire to be the best. Yeah, but you must be right. The two of you must have decided. [01:06:50] Yeah, that you’re gonna. You’re gonna position this, this lab at the [01:06:55] the position that you’ve positioned it right, which is very sort of high end aesthetic. [01:07:00] Yeah. At what? At what point did that do you feel like a flip happened where, you know, you [01:07:05] said you said you weren’t interested in A levels. You got into NHS labs. [01:07:10] And at what point was it that you decided, oh God, I’m going to be the best at something? Was that always within [01:07:15] you?

Simon Caxton: That’s within me, I think, as just everything I do. Really? [01:07:20] Yeah. So, I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m the best technician by a long shot. I, [01:07:25] I can.

Payman Langroudi: Do it, but you’re going to.

Payman Langroudi: Try. Yeah, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Going to try.

Simon Caxton: I’m going to try to be the best I can. I’m, I [01:07:30] can do a good case. I can do some nice cases I can do, I can do some shockers [01:07:35] and like anybody else. So, um, there’s some fantastic technicians out there. There really is. And there’s [01:07:40] some real artists. And I still look at their work, and especially now with social media on [01:07:45] Instagram and things like that. You see these cases and I look at that all the time and think, I want [01:07:50] to do that. That’s where I want to be. And I’m still pushing to get up to those cases. But [01:07:55] I started playing golf a few years back and [01:08:00] I practised every day. Every single day I would be at the driving range because I wanted to get better and better and [01:08:05] better. Uh, I bought my my now wife an engagement ring. I learned all [01:08:10] there was to learn about diamonds, the different polarities, the different cuts. I’ve done all [01:08:15] this research on them and everything like that. I go into, like, massive [01:08:20] detail. Um, and then I get bored of it and I move on to the next thing I don’t. Maybe [01:08:25] that is some kind of ADHD thing, I don’t know, but, um, but as [01:08:30] far as I’m concerned, that’s just me. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the hobbies of yours?

Simon Caxton: I [01:08:35] play rugby, I still play rugby. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So that’s quite a good release for [01:08:40] me, especially if you’ve had a. That’s how stressful week at work. [01:08:45] I just imagine a team of 15 dentists in front of me and I can run [01:08:50] them over.

Payman Langroudi: Flatten them.

Simon Caxton: People often ask me, [01:08:55] why are you so aggressive on the rugby pitch?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a question for you, buddy. [01:09:00] As far as like other countries, which one? Which ones do you rate as far as their [01:09:05] technicians? Because. Or am I wrong on this? Am I looking at it in the wrong way? Because. [01:09:10] Because I had some German technicians, man. And the work fitted like the occlusion and [01:09:15] the fit was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: And yeah, German technicians. But [01:09:20] it’s like with German cars and engineering. Yeah, they’re so precise. [01:09:25] And I think their way, their education system is as well like is [01:09:30] is great. And to own a lab you have to be a master dental technician. [01:09:35] You can’t open up a lab unless you’ve got this master dental technician status. [01:09:40] Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Simon Caxton: There. Worked fantastic. [01:09:45]

Payman Langroudi: Where else? Um, Italy. Brazil? Yeah, Italy, Italy and.

Simon Caxton: Brazil have got some fantastic technicians. [01:09:50] I think every country has got really good technicians. Um, I mean, the Japanese [01:09:55] as well, they’re known for, for their work and I would say probably [01:10:00] like in terms of like ceramic work and you’re probably looking at like Japan. [01:10:05] Italy. Yeah. Brazil. But inside [01:10:10] every country’s got their great ones. So.

Payman Langroudi: And who of of the sort of [01:10:15] big famous or not famous for that matter. Who are your, like, heroes? Like who are the people [01:10:20] you look up to so far as technicians?

Simon Caxton: Gaspar Guerra For me, I’ve [01:10:25] been on about 4 or 5 of his courses, and I was lucky enough to spend a [01:10:30] week in his lab in Barcelona a few years back, just just with him and [01:10:35] two other technicians. Who else is there as like Oliver Bricks? [01:10:40] There’s guy that is an Argentinian technician who I went on a course with this year, Mariano [01:10:45] Maurizi. Fantastic work. I mean, I say I’ve [01:10:50] seen so many of them and some of them twice. Three times even, just [01:10:55] because I don’t think I learned enough from them the first time. Um, but [01:11:00] can you.

Payman Langroudi: Explain it to me? Like like if I go on a dentist course. Yeah, it might be something about composite [01:11:05] bonding for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Um, it might be the anteriority. What kind of courses? Like how how [01:11:10] detailed does it go? Like, what kind, of course do you go on? So what are you learning on that course.

Simon Caxton: So most of them are [01:11:15] ceramic layering courses. And there’s only so many ways you can [01:11:20] layer a crown. But they each will have their own sort of technique. [01:11:25] And I’ve been on sort of show taking courses and how to understand [01:11:30] the different opacities of the ceramics and, and the different translucency, where [01:11:35] to apply them. So each one has their own sort of little spin on it [01:11:40] and their own technique. And some are with one manufacturer work [01:11:45] with one manufacturer’s ceramic, others will work with another one and another one, [01:11:50] and you just take bits from each one and and pick something up, like layering [01:11:55] ceramic gum work as well and learning like that’s only [01:12:00] really probably 5 or 6 different colours of pink, but it’s [01:12:05] the way they use them and where they put them that makes it look so lifelike. [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I just we don’t appreciate us.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t appreciate sometimes that with with your [01:12:15] work, between the actual layering and the final piece, there’s a there’s a [01:12:20] change in dimension in the teeth. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So with the ceramic you have to build it up bigger, [01:12:25] uh, to start with because it will shrink.

Payman Langroudi: It’s weird. But yeah.

Simon Caxton: So if [01:12:30] you get an effect in the wrong place and it shrinks down, yeah, you’ve got to cut it out [01:12:35] or start again. It’s really hard.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the percentage of shrink?

Payman Langroudi: They used to.

Simon Caxton: Be quite [01:12:40] big, but it’s it’s not so much now. So if I might over build a [01:12:45] central by a millimetre in length and it will shrink down a millimetre. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:50] and you just have a feel for how much it’s going to shrink with that particular material.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: You do. You get [01:12:55] used to the material you use. So I all I use all ivoclar ceramics and [01:13:00] I have them for quite a few years now. So I’m kind of used to how they react. [01:13:05] And I know what’s going to happen. But they might pick up another [01:13:10] ceramic and it might shrink more, or it might have more opacity [01:13:15] so than the other dentine. So they’re all different and it’s just getting [01:13:20] used to the one you use. Um. You can have some really good results, [01:13:25] like one technician might get a really good result with one ceramic, and another technician might get [01:13:30] a completely different result with that ceramic.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What works in your hands right.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:13:35] but.

Simon Caxton: Yeah, most of my courses have been ceramic courses. I’ve done CAD courses and [01:13:40] implant courses and but overall the courses I’ve ever done and I used to go [01:13:45] to like the Bacb conferences and um, like the DTA or the dental technology [01:13:50] shows. And I used to go and sit in the dentist’s lectures [01:13:55] because I wanted to understand what they were doing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I wanted.

Simon Caxton: To [01:14:00] know the bit before I get it, what they’re doing. And if I can understand that, then I’ve got that [01:14:05] bit more understanding. On where the problems could lie and [01:14:10] what their thinking is behind things. But I very rarely see dentists on that [01:14:15] technician’s courses or in technicians lectures.

Payman Langroudi: The ones who go are the really top [01:14:20] ones. Oh yeah, oh yeah, I’ve noticed. Yeah, definitely. And then you get [01:14:25] that wonderful master race of, of human who’s like started out as a technician and then [01:14:30] become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like coach which.

Payman Langroudi: Coachman? I, um, [01:14:35] uh, Neil Gerrard was one in the UK. Yeah, but it’s [01:14:40] a very unique position, isn’t it? It’s a unique. You must know loads like you must know several. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:14:45] well not.

Simon Caxton: Really.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not, you know, there’s [01:14:50] not many.

Simon Caxton: That have gone from technician to dentist. Um, I tried, I got talked out of [01:14:55] it. I that was one of the things I wanted to do early on is like, oh, maybe I will go on and become a dentist and, and [01:15:00] that now you can you’ll be better off because it’s going to take you so many [01:15:05] years. And I was like, well, maybe, maybe not then, but maybe.

Payman Langroudi: And you [01:15:10] must be fully aware of, like this tension between technician and dentist when it comes to [01:15:15] in a way to make your life easier. He just needs to drill more, doesn’t he? [01:15:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, a.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist, but he doesn’t want to drill. He doesn’t want a drill, right. Because [01:15:25] he’s trying to be super minimal. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Millimetre and a technicians millimetre a completely different. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But but there is, there must be this like sweet spot, right. Isn’t it, [01:15:35] that there’s an amount of drilling that that would help both of you, the dentist [01:15:40] and the technician.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re very, very rarely.

Simon Caxton: Find it that sweet spot.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:15:45] yeah, yeah, yeah. But but also like, in the last ten, 15 years, you must have noticed people getting more [01:15:50] and more and more conservative. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: It’s come harder.

Payman Langroudi: It makes your life harder, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Especially [01:15:55] so that’s where these contact lens veneers have sort of been coming back in as well because [01:16:00] you can make them a lot thinner. Again, they’re only right for certain situations. [01:16:05] But yeah, definitely people have become more conservative. Um, I think they’re more [01:16:10] scared of litigation and things like that. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [01:16:15] just the teaching and it’s like cutting enamels become like really bad thing to do nowadays, you know, [01:16:20] like it’s, it’s it’s everyone’s just, you know, I do a lot with the younger dentists and they [01:16:25] just don’t want to cut enamel, you know, at all. No. Um, whereas, [01:16:30] you know, back in, back in the day, people. Do you remember the whole Rosenthal [01:16:35] wave as that came through?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So, um, I kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What stage were you at when that [01:16:40] happened?

Simon Caxton: I just started working with Rob, and then he went on the course, [01:16:45] and he even went over to one of the labs in New York to learn how they were doing it. And so. [01:16:50] Well, I mean, we were doing loads of cases when that first started, I didn’t start, [01:16:55] I was still doing sort of diagnostic waxing at that stage, but I was I was waxing [01:17:00] up probably three cases a day of those and then moved on to [01:17:05] the ceramic side of it. Um, and that was a lot of feldspathic veneers. [01:17:10] So it’s kind of gone full circle again now. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Simon Caxton: We [01:17:15] saw some, uh, pretty aggressive preps in those things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah [01:17:20] absolutely man. Well it’s been a massive pleasure. I’m going to end it with our usual [01:17:25] questions okay.

Simon Caxton: I’ve been thinking long and hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:30]

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you have? [01:17:35]

Simon Caxton: So my first one, without a doubt, would be Rik Mayall, the comedian.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:17:40] I absolutely the young ones. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: I love the young ones growing up, big fan of [01:17:45] like bottom and that sense of humour. And when [01:17:50] he died I was absolutely gutted. I was I’ve never met the guy, [01:17:55] only seen him on TV, but it left a big hole. Um, for me. [01:18:00]

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t know he was dead, man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Yeah, about 15 years ago. I think it was quite [01:18:05] a while back. You’re kidding. No. Sorry to break that to you, Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry. On air. On air. [01:18:10] I’m going to.

Payman Langroudi: Grieve right now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Caxton: So, um. I still watch a lot of [01:18:15] the reruns of bottom and, um, the young ones and things like that. [01:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: What was that? What was.

Payman Langroudi: That political thing he was in was.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant. Bastard.

Payman Langroudi: Bastard.

Payman Langroudi: Bastard. [01:18:25] Yeah.

Simon Caxton: And he could make me laugh a bit like Rowan Atkinson. Like [01:18:30] just his facial expressions. And I think someone like him [01:18:35] at a dinner party would really brighten things up. Absolutely. So I [01:18:40] think for entertainment value.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Goodie. Rik Mayall.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um. [01:18:45]

Simon Caxton: And I like people that tell stories and say like, interesting [01:18:50] people. So my second one would be Richard Attenborough. So [01:18:55] sorry, not Richard Edwards, sir David Attenborough. David.

Payman Langroudi: David Attenborough. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: Just [01:19:00] because of what he’s seen in a lifetime and what he’s achieved. I mean, all [01:19:05] the plays, all the nature documentaries and all those things that not [01:19:10] many people get to see in real life. And he’s been there recording them and [01:19:15] all these different animals and. Bit like tribes [01:19:20] and whatever that you’ve seen throughout the world, I think you’d have a good few stories [01:19:25] to tell. I think he’d be a good after dinner speaker to sit back with a glass of port or [01:19:30] a nice whisky and just listen to.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you might be [01:19:35] the most, the most, the most popular Brit right now, right.

Payman Langroudi: He I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: 1997 [01:19:40] the you know, I reckon if, if, God [01:19:45] forbid anything, Amsterdam is going to be like a state funeral.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, and rightly. [01:19:50]

Simon Caxton: So, and.

Payman Langroudi: Rightly.

Payman Langroudi: So. Yeah. Rightly so. Well rightly so. Who’s [01:19:55] your third?

Payman Langroudi: Oh no, I.

Simon Caxton: Struggled with this one, but. I’ll go. Gordon [01:20:00] Ramsay.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Yeah. So I need someone.

Simon Caxton: To cook as well, so I [01:20:05] think.

Payman Langroudi: I think I.

Simon Caxton: Think you’d be quite good, but I just think because [01:20:10] I’ve listened, I’ve read his books and.

Payman Langroudi: He’s fun. He is fun.

Payman Langroudi: He’s I think.

Simon Caxton: He’s got a good sense of.

Payman Langroudi: Humour, but. [01:20:15]

Simon Caxton: I think he’s I mean, he’s a good businessman. So I think I could learn a thing or two off of him. [01:20:20] And I think with chefs and, and technicians, I think some of it’s slightly similar, as [01:20:25] I said earlier, like it’s their name above the door sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Behind the scenes as well.

Simon Caxton: They have to check [01:20:30] everything. And we were a bit like that as well as like a lead technician. You’re [01:20:35] kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Guide in all these.

Payman Langroudi: Making sure everything’s.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Yeah.

Simon Caxton: And then you’re checking that [01:20:40] final dish or case before it goes out. And I think [01:20:45] I’ve seen him on TV and he can be quite harsh, [01:20:50] but sometimes I think he’s harsh but fair. And then when people do something right, he’s full of praise [01:20:55] for them. And that’s where I’d like to be, and that’s how I’d like people to be. If it was my kids [01:21:00] working for someone like that, I think that would be. It’d be hard, but fair, I think.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:21:05] I think.

Payman Langroudi: He’s normally right isn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the thing.

Simon Caxton: I could learn a lot [01:21:10] from him. I think I could still be entertained by him and well fed as well. So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:21:15] a different kind of dinner party where the guest is doing the cooking, but. All right, there you go. Yeah, I’ll give you that. The [01:21:20] final question. It’s a deathbed question. Okay. [01:21:25] On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones. Gotta [01:21:30] give him three pieces of advice. What would that be?

Simon Caxton: First one would be. Don’t [01:21:35] work too hard. Like make time for your family. Like I, [01:21:40] I did something unlike you. You mean I did something that I said I would never do, [01:21:45] especially with two young kids. I spend more time at the lab than I did at home. Um. [01:21:50] Which I really, really regret. Yeah. So spend [01:21:55] more time with your family and just don’t work so hard. Work smart, not hard. [01:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: How old are they now? Like 17?

Payman Langroudi: 18? Yeah. 17.

Simon Caxton: 117 next week. And the other [01:22:05] one’s 15. So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So I know the feeling.

Payman Langroudi: You suddenly you suddenly [01:22:10] realise they’re about to go, right.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. Yeah, yeah.

Simon Caxton: So that’ll be my first part. [01:22:15] Travel more. See the world. Don’t don’t get pinned down to one [01:22:20] spot. I like going on nice holidays and. Same places. [01:22:25] I don’t like to lay around on the beach too much. I want to see what’s there. I like going [01:22:30] to somewhere different and experience the culture and the the food. [01:22:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just go do some of your favourite places.

Payman Langroudi: You go. Um.

Simon Caxton: New [01:22:40] York is probably one of my favourite.

Payman Langroudi: I love New York. Yeah. Um, do [01:22:45] you.

Payman Langroudi: Know people there?

Payman Langroudi: No, I just went there.

Simon Caxton: Um, we went there a couple of years ago with the kids, and [01:22:50] they loved it. We had a great, probably one of our best holidays. Like family holidays. It was only there five days, [01:22:55] but it’s one that’s stuck in everybody’s mind. I like different [01:23:00] places in Europe, so I love Barcelona.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah.

Simon Caxton: That’s really nice. Which which [01:23:05] is quite nice as that’s where chorus headquarters are. So gets.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Simon Caxton: Hopefully [01:23:10] get to go there a bit more. Thailand. Love Thailand.

Payman Langroudi: I love Thailand and [01:23:15] Asia.

Simon Caxton: We’re going we’re going back this year. We’re going to Vietnam this year. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well [01:23:20] it’s lovely to travel right. But I if I, if it was me I’d extend on top of that [01:23:25] piece of advice travel young as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Before you’ve made your mind [01:23:30] up about everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Although although maybe you’re saying your mind is still open and you’re, [01:23:35] you know, you know, there are that some people are like that, but, you know, I don’t know, man. 115 [01:23:40] star hotel in Thailand. So it’s similar to another one in wherever. Yeah. And [01:23:45] I’m not saying I want to go to five star hotel but but I also don’t want a backpack [01:23:50] and things anymore. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas whereas when, when you were in that backpack where [01:23:55] you’re meeting and you’re open to everyone and everything, it’s gold. It’s proper gold. Young [01:24:00] travel.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I did.

Simon Caxton: I travelled around Australia for uh, a few months when [01:24:05] I was.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: How was that.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Yeah, it was great.

Simon Caxton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Simon Caxton: And [01:24:10] I went with my now wife. So that’s one way to make or break a relationship [01:24:15] is to live in each other’s pockets for 24, seven for a few [01:24:20] months.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah.

Simon Caxton: So it definitely made it, but I was. Yeah, only [01:24:25] 22, 23 when we did that. So as you say yeah [01:24:30] I agree. Travel young. Um, my daughter’s already said to me, I want to do a gap year. And I’m like, yeah, [01:24:35] do it. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I’m saying the same to my son. Yeah, I’m saying the same. [01:24:40] All right. So don’t work too hard.

Payman Langroudi: More. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:24:45] what’s the third one?

Payman Langroudi: Just just, uh.

Simon Caxton: I’ve [01:24:50] been. I’ve thought long and hard about this one and I couldn’t get the third one. But maybe [01:24:55] just try and be the best you can at whatever you decide to do. That’s [01:25:00] what I’ve tried to do. Just tried to do my best. You’re not going to please [01:25:05] everybody all the time, but. As long as you’re happy. And. Yeah. [01:25:10] Don’t don’t take things to heart. I mean, I do know I have done I you [01:25:15] spend all this time on something and if it don’t go right, I’m, I’m, I’m too hard [01:25:20] on myself. I, I just need to chill out more. So. Yeah. Maybe just. It [01:25:25] feels like I was telling my kids that. Tell them just to chill out more.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:25:30] you know, it’s a funny thing because, you know, that thing they say to you, I bet you’re in meetings, [01:25:35] these sort of corporate meetings with these people now. Yeah, yeah. Where it’s it’s almost like what [01:25:40] got you here isn’t going to get you to the next step. It’s a different skill that’s going to get you [01:25:45] to the next step. Yeah. And but you know that idea of your [01:25:50] biggest strength being your biggest weakness, sort of like let’s say you’re a massive [01:25:55] perfectionist. Well, as a as a dental technician, that’s super important. I want my technician to be a massive [01:26:00] perfectionist. And yet that perfectionism is also the [01:26:05] thing that brings you down. The slightest thing doesn’t work out, and it makes you stress [01:26:10] or you get anxiety. You know what I mean? Yeah, or it could be anything. You’re super [01:26:15] kind. But then, you know, kindness sounds like such a brilliant thing. How could it [01:26:20] possibly go wrong? But then maybe you don’t like confrontation and you can’t fire anyone. Yeah. You know, like [01:26:25] things like that. Yeah. It’s super interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure, man. I’ve really enjoyed [01:26:30] it. Thank you so much for doing this.

Simon Caxton: Yeah I hope to see more technicians on here. So I’ve been a big. [01:26:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well as I say I do plan it I do plan it. I’ve got another one for sure. And [01:26:40] another one who’s who I’ve promised I will. Excellent.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah, I’ve been a.

Simon Caxton: Long time listener and, [01:26:45] uh, I’ve always said there’s never any technicians on it. It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:26:50] was. I was aware of it.

Payman Langroudi: I was aware of it, but.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: But. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks [01:26:55] a lot for coming on, buddy. I really enjoyed that very much.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I enjoyed it, too.

Simon Caxton: Thank you for having me.

Intro Voice: This [01:27:00] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:27:05] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:27:10] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav [01:27:15] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must [01:27:20] have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking [01:27:25] through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming [01:27:30] you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:27:35] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank [01:27:40] you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Speaker1: If I had acknowledged that by the age of 11 or 12 that, you know, this is what I must do [00:00:05] as an adult and ignore these, you know, classic, you know, astronaut, airline [00:00:10] pilot, doctor, dentist things, you know, just feel, sense and feel. [00:00:15] But what you keep thinking about, what you keep applying your attention to, [00:00:20] what you keep testing and experimenting with. That’s probably. But you [00:00:25] know, as a 12 year old, I can’t really blame myself. But that that was that was where the biggest mistakes started beginning. [00:00:30] And I ended up in this road, this academic pathway, doing this kind of quintessential [00:00:35] professional pathway. So those that’s probably the biggest mistake. But I think then once I was [00:00:40] into it and properly miserable and practice ownership. You’re [00:00:45] really in a rut though, because when you’re so consumed by it, you can’t really see [00:00:50] options. But if somehow I could have found the belief that there are options, [00:00:55] I would have broken away sooner and not consumed the energy and time that I did. [00:01:00]

Speaker2: This [00:01:05] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [00:01:10] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:01:20] Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Michael [00:01:25] Lazzari’s onto the podcast. Um. Michael is a dentist that I was introduced to 2 [00:01:30] or 3 years ago. Uh, when he was starting to develop a new [00:01:35] toothbrush. Um, and, uh, he’s got a very interesting story. Uh, someone who’s been a practice owner [00:01:40] who then stopped to do this kind of work with products. Someone’s [00:01:45] got a real passion for product design. Lovely to have you, Michael.

Speaker1: Good morning. Payman. [00:01:50] It’s a pleasure and an honour.

Speaker3: Where are you right now?

Speaker1: In my office in Edinburgh. Just [00:01:55] ready to chip away at this big project that you know about, but. Yeah, just at home. [00:02:00] Home office. That’s nice.

Speaker3: So, Michael, are you Scottish? Born and bred.

Speaker1: I [00:02:05] was born in Scotland. My dad’s Greek. I very much feel half Greek. [00:02:10] Uh, so guess I’m a bit mixed up like that, but half Greek, half Scottish. So that’s the. [00:02:15] That’s always been the Scotland. Yeah. Grew up here. Spent a lot of time in Greece [00:02:20] whenever I can. It’s Greek. So kind of strong roots there. And, uh. [00:02:25] Yeah. Back in Greece, whenever we can go next week. That’ll be great.

Speaker3: And [00:02:30] you studied dentistry in Glasgow, did you?

Speaker1: Yeah. That’s right. Um, 1998. [00:02:35] Started there. Qualified 2003.

Speaker3: What made you become a dentist? Why? Dentistry. [00:02:40]

Speaker1: Well, ah, I think I think I wanted to become [00:02:45] every profession that was under the sun. Lawyer, accountant, doctor. [00:02:50] I looked at it all really seriously. And, you know, for at least six months, I wanted to do each [00:02:55] of those. And eventually I kind of plumped for dentistry because it was, like, the [00:03:00] best of a bad bunch. Yeah. But essentially under sort of, I think, [00:03:05] parental pressure. Um, ultimately, um, I [00:03:10] think my dad just perhaps had a limited idea of what was [00:03:15] possible within other fields as far as career progression, you know, financial stability, [00:03:20] and could only envisage me becoming one of these quintessential [00:03:25] professions professionals. So that was the one I [00:03:30] went for. It seemed practical, very scientific. Um, [00:03:35] a lot of autonomy. I could see that you could get on with your own sort of little [00:03:40] practice enterprise, whatever. Um, pretty quickly after graduating. [00:03:45] So that was a big thing, and that was it. I just kind of got on with it. But I do remember my first [00:03:50] day at university. I thought, what the f have I done? Me too. And [00:03:55] then sexually, you know.

Speaker3: Was that dissection?

Speaker1: It was actually [00:04:00] it was just the first day of lecturing. First year I thought, why am I here? But I don’t know. This sense of [00:04:05] responsibility just kept me. Going and [00:04:10] before you know it, five years have passed and so did you.

Speaker3: Struggle with the course. [00:04:15]

Speaker1: I struggled with areas that I just had no interest in, like microbiology. [00:04:20] And, um, you know, anatomy is amazing, but I [00:04:25] just couldn’t I wasn’t motivated enough to. So I struggled through the first 1 [00:04:30] or 2 years of academia that I knew would not directly make [00:04:35] me a great dentist, so I struggled with apparent irrelevance [00:04:40] of those things. Um, scraped through first year, scraped through second year. [00:04:45] But once it became practical and really, you know, the engineering of [00:04:50] of dentistry, um, and using my hands, making, just making those [00:04:55] amazing things come to life. Um, restorations and everything. That’s when [00:05:00] I really sort of started tuning in and, you know, got into it.

Speaker3: And [00:05:05] did you had you grown up in Edinburgh or in Glasgow or somewhere else?

Speaker1: Just just say Glasgow. [00:05:10] Yeah.

Speaker3: So didn’t you think, hey, you know, leave, leave home a bit for university. Why [00:05:15] did you stay where you were.

Speaker1: Yes. It’s interesting. On my Ucas application form [00:05:20] from school, it was the first two lines where I was Glasgow Dentistry. Dundee [00:05:25] Dentistry. And then it was Glasgow Electronic Engineering. Glasgow [00:05:30] electronic and Avionic engineering. I just wanted to stay at home. You [00:05:35] know, it’s just I was just too comfortable. It’s funny my parents [00:05:40] moved out from or I didn’t move out. My parents moved out when I was 24. They [00:05:45] just went to Greece for like the next ten, 20 years. Uh huh. Um, and then I realised, [00:05:50] ah, why am I here? Uh, I could work anywhere. So [00:05:55] yeah, I took a job in Dundee, which was exotic for me because it was more than 20 miles [00:06:00] away. And, uh, but then that was that was really good for me, actually. [00:06:05] That kind of opened my mind that I could just work anywhere. Yeah, it was a bit of a home boy at that point. [00:06:10] Um, bit too comfortable, perhaps, but. Yeah.

Speaker3: And tell us about your Dental career, your first few [00:06:15] jobs. How did you get on?

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, you know, the show, the opportunity to be an show, [00:06:20] which I had a few I had a few show positions was just incredible, [00:06:25] you know, a training job and you’re being paid and the atmosphere is just is light. [00:06:30] But it’s, you know, it’s so immersive as well working beside specialists. What, [00:06:35] what a what a privilege. And that was I had sensed [00:06:40] that, you know, coming out with a BDS. It wasn’t it wasn’t adequate, it wasn’t enough. [00:06:45] But it was a great foundation. But I knew I had to be more [00:06:50] prepared to practice than what the BDS gave me. So I pursued those show jobs. And then [00:06:55] after after that, it was, you know, getting into private practice as soon as possible. [00:07:00] Um, because that had been my vision. I could see the, the NHS, [00:07:05] uh, business model wouldn’t support what we had learned at university even. [00:07:10] And, and furthermore, what I was to learn as a, as an show which [00:07:15] was basically practising in line with the evidence, the science, what the science was telling us to do [00:07:20] that had. No, no. Um. I didn’t have any [00:07:25] belief in the government’s approach to how I was to apply the science, [00:07:30] so I needed that autonomy ultimately, and give myself that [00:07:35] foundation and then look for the autonomy to apply it.

Speaker3: To which year are we talking now? [00:07:40]

Speaker1: So that was, um, when into private practice in 2007, [00:07:45] I think. So just, you know, three years after qualifying, [00:07:50] I didn’t buy the practice at that point, but I just I phoned around all [00:07:55] the practises in Edinburgh just asking if they had a job. And a couple did have private associate [00:08:00] jobs and got into one. And then that led me to the next associate job. Um, [00:08:05] and the principle in that job, he offered me the practice. [00:08:10] It was very early on in the job was like six weeks, I think they said, I want you to take [00:08:15] over the practice. I was like, let’s go for it.

Speaker3: Six weeks in.

Speaker1: Yeah. It [00:08:20] was just it was great. It was a nice small team. Just everything [00:08:25] just clicked. Um, it was, he was. I could tell he was a bit more senior. And I thought, [00:08:30] yeah, maybe in five, ten years he’ll want to retire. This is this is a possible opportunity [00:08:35] in the future as an associate, I could take it on from him. I had thought of that when I met him. If he was a really [00:08:40] young principal, I thought there’s no real unless it would be partnership. I wasn’t keen on that. [00:08:45] I wanted to be the sole owner and I thought, yeah, he’s kind of old enough, but [00:08:50] I may be able to succeed him. And uh, but yeah, right enough. I didn’t realise he was [00:08:55] planning to retire so suddenly. He was 55. Um, and that was it? Yeah. Just [00:09:00] took that over. And it was January 2008. It was. Did you [00:09:05] have the money already?

Speaker3: Did you have you had some savings or how did that side of it.

Speaker1: At that time [00:09:10] banks were throwing money at you. So. Oh that’s right. That was not.

Speaker3: 100%, 110% mortgages. [00:09:15] Like.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. It was I remember him saying, do you want, do you want any more. You know, we had agreed on [00:09:20] the sums like is that all you need. And I was like, okay, stick another 20 on, you know, just in case. And [00:09:25] I remember actually paying them that back like just a few months in, I thought, I don’t [00:09:30] need that. Um, it was. Yeah. It’s very different nowadays isn’t it.

Speaker3: And you were, you were very [00:09:35] young. But can you remember what was going through your head as you were buying this practice? Were you thinking this [00:09:40] potential to change it, or were you just thinking it’s running like clockwork, [00:09:45] so I’ll just take it over. What was going through your head?

Speaker1: I really appreciated what they had there already [00:09:50] and it was all paper based. It was very analogue. It was, but it worked [00:09:55] sweetly. The patients were happy. There was a long established practice. 40 years, I think. Very [00:10:00] dedicated. Normal, pleasant. A patience [00:10:05] and same to same for the team. You know, long established [00:10:10] loyal team. Just a really sweet, healthy place to be. And [00:10:15] on that basis, I plan to change nothing for at least six [00:10:20] months. Just find my feet. I’m sure there’s a lot for me to learn and integrate into, uh, [00:10:25] embrace what’s there, embrace what’s working and see where to take it from [00:10:30] there. And actually, after that, it really wasn’t much to change about [00:10:35] the practice. As such, it was more just to continue developing myself as a dentist [00:10:40] and learn from my on going experiences and get better and better. [00:10:45] So I was very much a value add type rather than volume. But volume [00:10:50] never really appealed to me in dentistry, so it was just constant. This journey of value add, [00:10:55] you know, and upskilling all the time. Um, and [00:11:00] that was the approach. And in the end, you know, it probably [00:11:05] served me so far, you know, served me for 11 years. But that’s [00:11:10] that’s another story as to how I reached my limit with that, you know. But that was that was my approach in the beginning. [00:11:15]

Speaker3: So what kind of dentist were you becoming? What was what kind of work were you doing?

Speaker1: I [00:11:20] did, um, I think the first few years are really focussed on being great [00:11:25] at being general. Yeah. I really valued, you know, doing dentistry [00:11:30] that most people needed, but doing it extremely well. So just being really proud of [00:11:35] my, my handle, you know, my restorative work. Yeah. And being great at what [00:11:40] maintaining percent of people needed, which is what general dentistry was. And so [00:11:45] that was, that was that was my focus in the first few years. And it was actually [00:11:50] in maybe fourth or fifth year, maybe that I started looking at courses [00:11:55] and CPD requirements. I thought, I actually am going to this next CPD [00:12:00] cycle. I’ve got nothing to show. Um, I’ve just been reflecting mostly [00:12:05] until then and, you know, just making my work better and better under my own steam type of thing. [00:12:10] But then I get into the courses and implants, um, or so, [00:12:15] um, that type of thing. Um, I never really get into the cosmetic [00:12:20] as a core cosmetic work as a core. Everything I [00:12:25] did, I wanted to achieve a cosmetic result, but the cosmetic side didn’t really ever [00:12:30] draw me. I was very much about function and health, uh, that [00:12:35] type of thing, and making it look nice when I’ve done it. But not cosmetic [00:12:40] as I Corps. But everything else I did kind of, um, have an interest in [00:12:45] enough to get into it.

Speaker1: But I must say though, that with the implants I had. Actually [00:12:50] previously decided never to get into it, but by [00:12:55] this point, I’d become so miserable and lost in practice [00:13:00] that I thought if I need to do something. I was in such a quandary, [00:13:05] which I can go into, um. But basically I was so lost and miserable I [00:13:10] thought, I need to do something. So I threw myself at the Strowman uh, course at the I.T [00:13:15] course, which changed my life, um, personally [00:13:20] and professionally, and breathed out a bit of life back into [00:13:25] the practice and to myself as a principle. And actually, maybe it helped [00:13:30] it survive because it was another big value add. The practice wasn’t growing in numbers, [00:13:35] it was just very, very static and stable. But I knew that wasn’t future proof enough. [00:13:40] So again, it was a next stage of sort of value add, but it was through the implant course that I met my wife, [00:13:45] through a friend that I’d made on the implant course, and meeting on these other great people [00:13:50] on the course and getting myself exposed to that community, because I had become just too [00:13:55] isolated in practice prior to then as well. And so that course just [00:14:00] helped so much.

Speaker3: But it wasn’t enough. So go on, tell me why. [00:14:05] Why were you so lost?

Speaker1: Essentially, I working [00:14:10] directly with the public and the nature of employment law [00:14:15] in Britain had me quite disillusioned because of 1 or 2 undesirable characters [00:14:20] that I had working for me along the way. Um, but essentially, you [00:14:25] know, chatting to 15 different members of the public each day was exhausting for me. Yeah, [00:14:30] I loved the analysis and strategy and the technical work [00:14:35] of the industry. Um, but the chat I would rather get into deep and meaningful [00:14:40] with three people every day about talk about the deepest subjects, [00:14:45] rather than chit chat with 15 or 20 people. That was exhausting for me. So [00:14:50] perhaps if I’d managed to cut down to say, 1 or 2 days a week, it would have been healthier. [00:14:55] I was also terrible at delegation, so by design, I’m just going to get exposed [00:15:00] to. You know, NGOs that just pull me, tear me apart [00:15:05] from all, all sides, you know. So that was that was, you [00:15:10] know, probably the summary of why it was a toxic place for me, a toxic situation. [00:15:15] Ultimately, um, when you say employment, say.

Speaker3: You mean you mean you wanted to [00:15:20] fire someone and you couldn’t like that sort of thing?

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, it’s, um, I [00:15:25] because because of this was the wrong environment for me ultimately, even though it [00:15:30] was going extremely well on paper and clinically, it was just fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. [00:15:35] But for me personally, it was really not not right. Which [00:15:40] meant that as my energy was consumed and I was distracted, it meant I wasn’t a [00:15:45] great leader in that environment. Um, the team knew what to do. They [00:15:50] were so responsible, um, but meant I wasn’t a great leader. Which also meant that [00:15:55] if 1 or 2 unsavoury characters crept into the team over the years, I didn’t deal with them. [00:16:00] Well enough. I just wasn’t able or willing [00:16:05] to deal with them correctly. The team were great though. I mean, we kind of dealt with them as a team, [00:16:10] and it’s funny to see that acting out. Um, team are great. [00:16:15] Yeah, it’s it’s, um, the employment law in [00:16:20] Britain. I felt put some employers like myself at [00:16:25] risk to, to these people ultimately who I’m talking about, they didn’t do any [00:16:30] long term harm to the practice or patients or to me. It’s just hard at the time to deal [00:16:35] with, though. So.

Speaker3: But did you know, did you not think that, you know, that [00:16:40] is a business problem rather than a dentistry problem?

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, it’s [00:16:45] I think it was a me problem. I think I was the problem there because I was just in the wrong environment, [00:16:50] and I just had no reserves to deal with this character. [00:16:55] It’s as simple as that. And I know what I would do now, but it took me two [00:17:00] years to. Get them out. Um, they’re very toxic. And [00:17:05] the team, um, and I just. I just had nothing. I had nothing left. My [00:17:10] focus was on my responsibilities to the patient. My technical skills [00:17:15] and serving the patient. And, you know, keeping the rest of that team [00:17:20] happy and keeping that peaceful, happy place. But driving [00:17:25] the practice, I just didn’t have enough interest in it to [00:17:30] drive it.

Speaker3: It’s interesting, isn’t it? Like, what is it about your job or one’s [00:17:35] job that drives us? Right? And in dentistry, I mean, [00:17:40] personally, I was the opposite of you. I didn’t like the Meccano, didn’t like the [00:17:45] putting bits together, and even the treatment planning piece didn’t like it. Always worried [00:17:50] I was doing the wrong thing and that sort of thing. Um, but I enjoyed the human [00:17:55] side of it. And I hear what you’re saying about the, you know, it’s a bit too [00:18:00] surface. Um, you can’t get into it deep and meaningful. But somehow I felt like I was, [00:18:05] I was, I was, but you know what drives us? That other people are driven by the staff management [00:18:10] bit, other people are driven by now in your new project, the the [00:18:15] marketing and design and all of that. Um, but now [00:18:20] that you’re out of it, do you not recognise dentistry as, um, better [00:18:25] than you thought it was when you were in it? Because I certainly did when I, when I stopped practising, [00:18:30] um, I realised that it’s, it’s actually I mean, it’s a hard job, [00:18:35] but anyone can do it was the way I was thinking.

Speaker1: Right? Um, [00:18:40] I mean, I do appreciate everything I got out of it. I knew along the way [00:18:45] with every challenge that I was going to learn something, every, every brutal [00:18:50] challenge that dentistry brings you. I just, you know. Got my head [00:18:55] down and dealt with it and learned and conquered it. And there was there was [00:19:00] so much that was great about it. And I, and I still describe it as an amazing profession. I really do. [00:19:05] Um, I have so much appreciation for it. And and yes, I could go back [00:19:10] and probably enjoy an associate job for a day or two. It [00:19:15] doesn’t appeal to me just now, and I kind of don’t need to. But yeah, there’s there is a lot that I [00:19:20] that I look back on and I do appreciate and I was appreciating those things at the [00:19:25] time, but it is so demanding as a practice owner, a small practice owner, [00:19:30] you have to love it. You just have to love it. Yeah. And that’s [00:19:35] that’s all it was. That’s all it was missing. I just didn’t love it. And that can be enough [00:19:40] to send some people over the edge. And it almost sent me over the edge. So yeah, [00:19:45] the 90% or 80% that I liked was was amazing stuff. But [00:19:50] you also need that 20%, let’s say, and that such a demanding [00:19:55] environment and that 20% that I missed was just the passion and [00:20:00] that to be in that environment. So yeah, I do have big appreciation for it.

Speaker3: Do you remember [00:20:05] then thinking my way out of this is to sell this practice? Was that a moment that [00:20:10] you decided to do that?

Speaker1: It was a very, [00:20:15] very emotional event to realise that that [00:20:20] has to happen. And it was with my wife, the support of my wife, who, incidentally, is a dentist as well. [00:20:25] Was she working.

Speaker3: In the same practice?

Speaker1: She did a little bit, yeah. Uh, [00:20:30] she’s an orthodontist, and but it was together. She’s very, very [00:20:35] spiritual and in touch with, you know. All [00:20:40] of that and we just. I just realised that I have to go. I have to I [00:20:45] have to sell this. And the kind of the exit strategy began and [00:20:50] I realised also there was a halfway house of. And this seems so basic [00:20:55] to everybody who’s listening, but to get an associate, because I was single handed [00:21:00] with a therapist, a dental therapist, and I had had [00:21:05] my fingers burnt with a few associates before and, and had gone [00:21:10] single handed after that for a good five years. And I thought, [00:21:15] I need to readdress this kind of associate model and how can [00:21:20] I make it work? And I came up with this whole structure that, you know, especially [00:21:25] the the remuneration structure sort of tapered, um, remuneration [00:21:30] structure, which I don’t know how. Sliding. Sliding scale. Yeah. [00:21:35] Sliding scale. Yeah. Um, so I worked really hard on that sliding scale structure. [00:21:40] And got an associate and I thought, okay, if [00:21:45] if I can get a great associate, I could actually drop down to a day, a week. And [00:21:50] this might actually be healthy for me. And equally, if. I’m not [00:21:55] entirely happy with the associate, but they’re good enough. Then I might just. They [00:22:00] might make it easier to sell the practice as well.

Speaker1: The fact that the associates didn’t say 90% of [00:22:05] the work. And in the end, I wasn’t entirely [00:22:10] happy with what was going on. It was a it was a good associate, but just [00:22:15] not quite how I wanted it to be. And that did make it easier to sell. [00:22:20] And then I sold. And that was it was a [00:22:25] very, very easy sell because I had just fine tuned this [00:22:30] practice to, you know, everything was working so slick. [00:22:35] It was just such a transparent practice to [00:22:40] assess as a purchase and had been so fine tuned. And [00:22:45] systems and the team. It was just a lovely package to pass [00:22:50] on, something that was very proud of and something I knew that whoever took [00:22:55] it on, they weren’t going to get burnt with anything that had left lingering, not dealt with, [00:23:00] whether it was, you know, toxic stuff or broken systems or that type [00:23:05] of thing. It was just a nice package to pass on. And so thankfully. That [00:23:10] made it a very smooth sail because I couldn’t I wouldn’t have coped with a sail [00:23:15] that took 2 or 3 years. I know that happens to people. Um, I wouldn’t [00:23:20] have I don’t know what would have happened to me, but I had nothing left at that point. And did [00:23:25] you have a plan?

Speaker3: Did you have a plan for what you were going to do after? Or was it like I went out first and [00:23:30] I want to then decide, yeah.

Speaker1: And this is the this is the thing as well. I had through it, [00:23:35] through it maybe, maybe since a teenager I had lots of ideas for products [00:23:40] and reinvent and redesigning things. And this [00:23:45] growing list that I’d been keeping since I was a teenager, there must have been, you know, there’s probably [00:23:50] originally 100 products and it scored a 40, and I was now left with 50 or 60 products on [00:23:55] this list. And I’m seeing some of these products going appear in the market. Others [00:24:00] had actually come up with it, and I see it actually become a success. I’m like, oh, I better score that one off. That’s somebody [00:24:05] else ended up doing that. And to continually see these ideas come [00:24:10] and the possibility for success and bringing a product to market was [00:24:15] this kind of burning passion in the background the whole time. And [00:24:20] I thought, there’s I need to give one of these a try. I [00:24:25] also had discovered that my previous passion of [00:24:30] becoming an airline pilot as a child was actually very feasible with [00:24:35] today’s, uh, affordable and flexible modular training pathways. So [00:24:40] I thought I could train as an airline pilot, but also have some [00:24:45] products developing on the side. And I had understood the the model of licensing [00:24:50] where you come up with IP, a design and you. Two, though to [00:24:55] accompany, and they take on the rights to the IP in return for a royalty. So I thought, [00:25:00] I can churn out these ideas and be an airline pilot and also start [00:25:05] a family. So that all kind of lined up. And [00:25:10] so that was the plan to start all of the above. And [00:25:15] and I did I did start over. Um, and also to get into investing [00:25:20] and learn a bit more about that. And so actually property was an interest. [00:25:25]

Speaker1: I had a couple of rental flats that give me a taste of things, but I’d [00:25:30] also learned that there were so many ways within property to to do well. So [00:25:35] the other plan that came up after I sold was to get into house building [00:25:40] with my dad. So I was training to be a pilot. I was [00:25:45] writing these patents for products. We had already had a first child, second one was on the way, and [00:25:50] I was also starting the business with my dad to start to build houses. And then Covid happened [00:25:55] and basically wiped out the property game [00:26:00] and the aviation industry. And by then I was getting [00:26:05] on for 40 and I had planned, I had decided that if [00:26:10] I’m going to become a become a pilot, I need to do this by the time I’m 40, because [00:26:15] it’s such a gruelling, physically demanding lifestyle. That, [00:26:20] combined with family and everything else, that was going to be my deadline and then Covid [00:26:25] basically. Destroyed that deadline by, it would need another 3 or 4 years then [00:26:30] with the unknown that it presented. So I gave up on the aviation idea, [00:26:35] gave up on the property, um, business. That was for six months until that. [00:26:40] Thankfully, we didn’t start digging because I don’t know what would have happened. But [00:26:45] yeah, the supply issues with materials and things in the building industry, [00:26:50] um, was the was the thing that threw the whole business plan. And [00:26:55] just the shift change in how people use property affected the [00:27:00] whole strategy. So, um, yeah, so I just focussed on products and [00:27:05] family and uh, yeah, the rest is kind of can [00:27:10] talk more about that if you like, but lots of product ideas. But I’d say focus on the one which was [00:27:15] the toothbrush, ergo prox toothbrush.

Speaker3: I’d like to get to a good prox, but [00:27:20] I would like to know some of the other ones. But what was one? What was one that you thought up when you were [00:27:25] 17 and then someone else brought to market?

Speaker1: Or the idea just to think [00:27:30] another day that the idea of a sort of CCTV system within a car. I [00:27:35] think I was maybe 16 or 17. And now everybody has these, you know, dash cams [00:27:40] and it’s like the technology is so cheap. And another one was, uh [00:27:45] oh, I had have you ever seen these old LCD alarm clocks where the LCD [00:27:50] sits on a glass pane, so it’s completely see through, but the LCD numbers are on it. And [00:27:55] I thought if this could be enlarged into a massive window, you could have like [00:28:00] a window that can go pick at the flick of a switch. And then. I [00:28:05] think it was maybe a year.

Speaker3: That exists, isn’t it?

Speaker1: It [00:28:10] does. Yeah. And then it came out, you know, like five, ten years later I actually came out. I think it was like dental [00:28:15] surgery in Glasgow. I really high end one. And they, they have this surgery [00:28:20] and it’s, you know, maybe 5 or 6 big panes of glass and that flick of a switch, it just becomes this white opaque. [00:28:25]

Speaker3: Yeah. I think attic attic practice at that.

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Speaker3: And [00:28:30] Chris all centres got that as well. Um but don’t you think [00:28:35] dude. Yeah. That, you know, the execution is much more important than idea [00:28:40] anyway.

Speaker1: Um, I mean, yeah, it has to. That’s that’s the stage for that now [00:28:45] with the business.

Speaker3: And but you know, like, you know what I mean. We’ve we’ve all had ideas haven’t we all had ideas. [00:28:50] Ideas. Yeah. Is, is I know what you mean though about that being [00:28:55] the driver for you saying, God damn it, I’m going to execute this time. Yeah. Because [00:29:00] I’ve felt that feeling too, you know, that, you know, this is the thing that pushes you into actually doing [00:29:05] it is when you see someone else executing on your your idea. Right? Yeah. [00:29:10]

Speaker1: It’s, uh, and it was thing is, it was giving myself that chance to execute because [00:29:15] I was so swamped and density that had all these ideas and couldn’t execute. [00:29:20] And now I love I love the design engineering. So engineering [00:29:25] an idea to become, to be able to become a physical reality and also to become manufacturable [00:29:30] and at scale, not just manufacturable, but at scale as well. [00:29:35] So designing the machines, the tools that allow that object to come to life is [00:29:40] great. So that’s the that’s the physical execution. And then there’s the execution of the business. And always being [00:29:45] having been entrepreneurial all my life without actually. Giving [00:29:50] it enough credit to be honest along the way. But now I’m doing that. It’s I can now now [00:29:55] execute in the business, making a business out of it, which is just as exciting to me.

Speaker3: So [00:30:00] okay, let’s let’s get to Ergo Proxy. When was the first [00:30:05] time you thought that there’s a problem? Let’s describe the problem first. The problem is [00:30:10] missing teeth. The teeth next to the abutment, teeth next to the missing teeth, and [00:30:15] how clean you can keep those and, you know, the general public, how they can [00:30:20] angle their brushes and so forth. Is that right? Is that what we’re talking about?

Speaker1: Absolutely. So ten years [00:30:25] ago now actually, that I realised in practice that we were not able, over [00:30:30] decades of attrition with these patients seeing a hygienist. But we’re not able to coach these [00:30:35] clever, keen able patients. To [00:30:40] clean these sites. So I thought, let’s do a study on my own patients. So I just had [00:30:45] two columns and a bit of paper beside my desk. I didn’t even label the columns. My staff had no idea what I was [00:30:50] writing down. I just started like creating these stats for what was going on. And I found [00:30:55] that in this private practice, 95% of people with a missing tooth [00:31:00] could not clean all of the plaque from all of the teeth adjacent [00:31:05] to this edentulous site.

Speaker3: Are you talking about the ones with removable dentures? [00:31:10] The ones with a gap?

Speaker1: The ones anyone who’s lost a tooth other than a wisdom tooth. [00:31:15] So they’ve lost one two, seven, one, two, five six however many. I [00:31:20] counted all the sites. Just surfaces next to the Dental space, [00:31:25] and 95% of them could not clean all of the sites next to [00:31:30] all of their edentulous spaces, so they might have managed to clean.

Speaker3: A bit of it. You know.

Speaker1: Four out of the [00:31:35] five sites that were next to the initial space. But there was one that they just couldn’t. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:31:40] And so it was named and they might not have disease there. Fair enough. But you get [00:31:45] you get the path to and I thought this is massive. This is an ergonomic issue. We cannot [00:31:50] coach these people. I had a patient who had missing uppers and lower [00:31:55] left five present round to lower right four. Uh, sorry. It was [00:32:00] a three was a 4 to 3. So lower left, four to lower right. Three. The four I had just [00:32:05] crowned because of caries. And she’s still getting plaque at the distal. [00:32:10] Now with her dentures out, she has full access with any [00:32:15] old toothbrush to clean the back of that four to clean the distal of that four. And she [00:32:20] simply couldn’t in her mind’s eye, get her hand round at the correct angle consistently [00:32:25] every day to remove that plaque. And I said, you’re going to get caries here [00:32:30] because you’re still not cleaning there. And she’s basically burst into tears. [00:32:35] She knows that she’s about to lose. She might lose this critical tooth. It’s just [00:32:40] that helps to support the occlusion for our upper denture and something [00:32:45] to brace against for the lower one. This is a critical anchor tooth in your mouth. And [00:32:50] but she’s she’s perilous. I thought enough is enough that this this their toothbrush [00:32:55] architecture needs completely redesigned to deal with this. And [00:33:00] that was that was the that was the moment. I realise something has to be done [00:33:05] and. Yeah, and I thought if it’s 95% of my private patients, then what is it. What’s [00:33:10] it like in the general population. Mhm.

Speaker3: Yeah. And so you must have looked at research [00:33:15] now is there work out there confirming this.

Speaker1: Yeah I mean [00:33:20] the I think the partial denture case is, is, is brilliant because [00:33:25] um, these people, these people are at an even higher risk of this domino [00:33:30] effect of disease. And they are statistically, [00:33:35] they feel disempowered with their oral hygiene. They statistically feel out [00:33:40] of control. They statistically are not clear on what their [00:33:45] oral hygiene regime is, should be. And that that [00:33:50] that he traced that back to their experience in the surgery with the hygienist. The [00:33:55] hygienist is having to make up for the current toothbrushes are having to describe [00:34:00] and prescribe and coach a regime. Once you’re coaching somebody [00:34:05] beyond 30s how to clean a site, it’s probably not going to [00:34:10] work in the long term for that patient. If it needs that much tuition, you’re [00:34:15] entering the realms of spatial awareness, manual dexterity, motivation, [00:34:20] forming good habits for the rest of their life. And [00:34:25] you’re just you’re up against it. So it’s been unfair, [00:34:30] but what choice have we had? But it’s unfair to expect a patient to to take [00:34:35] on such a surgical technique essentially. So basically statistically [00:34:40] this is a serious issue. And I reached out to, I think, 150 hygienists and [00:34:45] therapists personally and engaged in dialogue with all of them about this problem. And [00:34:50] every single one was pulling their hair out with us. I even had hygienist saying, [00:34:55] I don’t know what to do about these areas. I just prescribe single tufted brush. [00:35:00] But no, it doesn’t work.

Speaker1: Or a bent toothbrush, which doesn’t work either. [00:35:05] So they’re actually telling me we’re prescribing something that doesn’t work, which is [00:35:10] a horrible position to be in. It sets them up for disappointment. The patient [00:35:15] comes back to me today what’s basically being patronised. You’re not cleaning. [00:35:20] They’re even though we understood and we told you and you agreed it’s not their fault, [00:35:25] it’s the tool. And so as I recognise the issue there and [00:35:30] it’s global. So yeah, that’s, you know, just through writing the patent, I did the [00:35:35] research and the prior art, which is basically all of the existing toothbrush designs. [00:35:40] And, and it has never been addressed. And the funny thing here [00:35:45] is, you know, I thought, am I reinventing the toothbrush here? Is this when I say, what am I doing here? [00:35:50] Why has this never been invented in the hundreds of years that we’ve been extracting teeth? [00:35:55] And here it is. The thing is, when the tooth is lost, we think space [00:36:00] has been created. Therefore, we should be able to clean the adjacent surfaces. Yeah. [00:36:05] And that’s it. Because there’s space. Because the hygienist can see [00:36:10] it. We believe the patient should also be able to see it or reach it. And [00:36:15] that’s it. But the angle required is impossible with [00:36:20] current toothbrushes and also the size of the toothbrush heads. But it’s all about the angle. Um, [00:36:25] so yeah, it’s a global issue.

Speaker3: Quickly describe it [00:36:30] for someone who’s listening. Kind of to me, looks like a closet, but [00:36:35] with the brushes.

Speaker1: Like a wishbone, sort of wishbone. Yeah. It’s like, almost [00:36:40] like a wishbone structure at the end of a handle. Yeah. And suspended between the legs of the [00:36:45] wishbone is a double sided brush head. Yeah. The bristles are [00:36:50] angled slightly towards the gingival margin. So it’s got the bass technique built [00:36:55] in and it’s very forgiving. And because of that you can just [00:37:00] use any brushing action. Push pull left right up and down. It’s so efficient [00:37:05] at applying pressure at the bristle tips to exactly [00:37:10] where it’s needed on a single tooth. Just because [00:37:15] of the positioning, because of the architecture, the layout.

Speaker3: And the curve. The curve of [00:37:20] the filaments. Right.

Speaker1: Yeah. So the the. Yeah, the curve of the head, it’s [00:37:25] um, it’s curved on two planes, uh, the two relevant planes in that position [00:37:30] and also deforms under under excess pressure. [00:37:35]

Speaker3: And they’re not filaments. They’re. What is it? Silicone.

Speaker1: It’s elastomer. [00:37:40] Yeah. And, you know, if it was nylon on a rigid base, which [00:37:45] is what nylon, the nylon bristles would need, it would actually be. This [00:37:50] is so efficient at directing the bristles where they need to go that the nylon structure would actually [00:37:55] be traumatic for tissues. So we had to de de risk de distress [00:38:00] the bristle tips. It’s so effective at brushing their. And, [00:38:05] you know, a lot of a lot of brush designs, even, you know, a Philips Sonicare [00:38:10] brush head. There’s a lot built into that that bristles set to account for inefficiency [00:38:15] with the positioning of the brush head. You know, long ones, short ones. It’s kind of covering [00:38:20] all covering all eventualities. But this brush head is positioned [00:38:25] so precisely that we had to basically de-stress the [00:38:30] the contact points, the contact between the bristle tips and the tooth. So [00:38:35] hence um, ferm elastomer, but a deformable head and [00:38:40] also curved to distribute the load.

Speaker3: I mean, ergo proxicom [00:38:45] if you want to look at a picture of it, I’m looking at it right now. Is the is the brush head piece replaceable. [00:38:50] Is that and the handles is the same. Is that what it is?

Speaker1: Different colour at the moment. At the moment it’s not replaceable [00:38:55] as a whole. Other level of engineering that will come in the future, but it’s really [00:39:00] easy to snip that head off and the handle is fully recyclable. So [00:39:05] for every ergo proxy toothbrush is 97% recyclable material and [00:39:10] you know, we can easily move to compostable plastics and things later as well, [00:39:15] you know. But yeah, just normal domestic scissors. Cut the head off and recycle the handle. [00:39:20]

Speaker3: So look, obviously I’m involved in product design, right. So I [00:39:25] appreciate how much work has gone into that. And a lot of people wouldn’t appreciate [00:39:30] it. But, um, I, it makes me think of, uh, with our latest version [00:39:35] of enlightened, we decided to change the tray case, uh, and, [00:39:40] and we didn’t want it to be plastic. We wanted it to be metal. And having [00:39:45] having been through this process many times before myself, I did not want to design [00:39:50] it ourselves. I wanted just to buy it off the shelf somewhere. Someone, you know, OEM stick [00:39:55] my name on it, but we couldn’t find one. Could not find one. Um, so [00:40:00] all it is? Dude, I don’t know if you’ve seen it. All it is is a case. Like, that’s all it [00:40:05] is. It’s aluminium round. Looks like a flying saucer, let’s say. Yeah. Uh, the [00:40:10] number of iterations that we had to go through for it. And [00:40:15] by the way, it’s still not right. It’s never right, is it? Um, I wanted it to open with one hand or whatever. [00:40:20] And, you know, sticking a hinge in there became a cost issue. Uh, just a whole [00:40:25] lot of problems. Yeah. Um, so, yeah.

Speaker1: It’s very involved, [00:40:30] isn’t it? Yeah, it is engineering. A lot of eyeballing, engineering, a lot of, uh, kind of sensing, [00:40:35] like, and density where you kind of just need to judge, you know, with your senses, through [00:40:40] experience about how to bring that tool together or bring those two pieces together. [00:40:45]

Speaker3: And then the cost of tooling I found, you know, just surprising, [00:40:50] surprisingly high. Um, so let’s go [00:40:55] through the process. Okay. You realise this was a problem. You started making some drawings, I guess [00:41:00] some 3D drawings after that. Well, the first thing.

Speaker1: I did was I got some modelling [00:41:05] clay. Yeah, and just mocked it up into shape. That felt right. [00:41:10] Uh, did a couple of iterations of that and felt I had enough to start doing [00:41:15] 3D drawings. I got somebody to do the drawing, just told them where to put the curves [00:41:20] and what angles and things, and then got that 3D printed, and [00:41:25] from then it was reiterations of 3D printed models.

Speaker3: So [00:41:30] maybe 3D printing makes it a lot easier, doesn’t it?

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:35] And um, because your main die can be fantastic, but once you get it in [00:41:40] your hand, you really can feel it and sense what the market will perceive it like, the size [00:41:45] of it, or how somebody would want to hold it. And you can even just pass it to somebody and see how [00:41:50] how they manage it in their hands. How many, how many.

Speaker3: Iterations did you go through before [00:41:55] getting to this?

Speaker1: Raw prototypes, probably [00:42:00] 10 to 15, however. Within within the [00:42:05] design process. And there must have been. There must have been another [00:42:10] sort of. 1020. Iterations to [00:42:15] tweak. And that’s before that’s before tooling started. And then when [00:42:20] you have the tool made, the tool then needs redesigned and [00:42:25] tweaked. So there were another 5 or 6 iterations in the tool itself, [00:42:30] which that in its in its own consumed six months, I think 6 to [00:42:35] 9 months. Those reiterations just within the tool. So you think you have this product [00:42:40] and yes, on on in A3D print, it’s perfect. But [00:42:45] then it needs to be manufacturable at scale and the tool needs to be fine tuned to produce that. [00:42:50] So that was that was really interesting as well. I think a lot of people might have been really frustrated by that process. [00:42:55] It took me a year longer than I had planned for, but it was technical. [00:43:00] It was, you know, even the a three engineers involved along the way putting their opinion [00:43:05] in and the tool maker, at one point, he actually wasn’t sure if it was even going to be possible, but [00:43:10] I just felt I knew what I needed these bristles to do and [00:43:15] therefore what the tool needed to make. And I [00:43:20] think he was actually he wasn’t used to dealing with things that this [00:43:25] such small dimension, but I was very familiar with dealing with fractions, tiny fractions [00:43:30] of a millimetre through implant dentistry and everything. So I felt completely at home [00:43:35] there. So I was able to help him, you know, make decisions on [00:43:40] the tool. I felt I knew what the material was going to do once it was injected under tons [00:43:45] of pressure, and how it would flow and reach those cavities within the tool, [00:43:50] and how it would all bond together and that molten state and then produce [00:43:55] the brush that I need. So that was that was a an amazing [00:44:00] process.

Speaker3: But I guess you wouldn’t have even gotten into this process before you’d written the patent, right? [00:44:05]

Speaker1: Correct. Yeah.

Speaker3: So, so so you wrote the patent, you checked [00:44:10] if the if it had been designed before you, I don’t know, you hire a patent [00:44:15] attorney or whatever.

Speaker1: Yeah. How much, how much.

Speaker3: How much does it cost you patent wise to get to [00:44:20] that point? Not much. Not too much. Um.

Speaker1: Well. Just [00:44:25] to just to quickly add because you mentioned there about not considering the manufacturing. But as I was writing [00:44:30] the patent, I had considered how this would be manufactured as I was writing the patent, because I’d always [00:44:35] been interested in how things were manufactured. So I just thought, if this is like a two piece [00:44:40] opening tool or injection moulding tool, it needs to be able to come out. Yeah. And [00:44:45] on that one dimension ideally. But yeah, the patent process I had kind of learned [00:44:50] through some tuition I had on, on patent licensing how [00:44:55] to write a very basic, basic patent draft, which is really cheap. You can file [00:45:00] one for £70 and. Had. By then I had written a few [00:45:05] patent applications, such a good idea of what was technically required. And [00:45:10] I knew ultimately, the more I could put on paper and describe clearly, the less work my patent [00:45:15] attorney would need to do. Yeah, so I am not even sure how much I’ve spent [00:45:20] on the patent attorney up until now on this product. Um, but it’s it’s [00:45:25] probably it’s probably it must be over. It must be over 10,000 [00:45:30] by now. And it’s probably not necessary to go that far. But my [00:45:35] applications are global. So as US, Europe and China. So there’s a bit [00:45:40] more involved.

Speaker3: So this is now. This is now to get it to the patent pending stage. [00:45:45]

Speaker1: So a patent pending can start with £70, and you file your own draft document [00:45:50] under your own steam. If you’re really clear technically about what your innovation is, why it’s innovative and [00:45:55] include lots of drawings, you can have a patent pending with £70. And for one year you’ve [00:46:00] got this grace period to look at the commercial viability of it. You can start looking at what’s [00:46:05] possible. You can even present it to companies if you just want to go down the licensing route. Um, but [00:46:10] you can basically explore the whole venture and with a huge degree of protection because you’ve got [00:46:15] that filed document. But within that year, you need to start making your decision [00:46:20] and then raise it to the next level of filing, at which point you want to [00:46:25] really drill down and articulate in the legally and [00:46:30] legal terminology what your innovation is within that document. And that’s where a patent attorney [00:46:35] can help. So my first draft for this patent was like 10,000 words long. And [00:46:40] my patent. A patent attorney. Added another 3000 words, I think. [00:46:45]

Speaker3: Is that it? I mean, I always understood the full cost of patenting in all [00:46:50] those different regions was into the hundreds of thousands. Is that incorrect?

Speaker1: I don’t think it’s going to come [00:46:55] to that. So it’s the number of communications that you need [00:47:00] to have with the patent office. Will affect the amount you have to spend [00:47:05] on getting it to grant. So if you and your patent attorney can be [00:47:10] clear and efficient as possible, then it will reduce the number of exchanges between your patent attorney [00:47:15] and the the the patent office. And, you [00:47:20] know, for example, once it’s approved in Europe, it’s then maybe [00:47:25] it then gets assigned to whichever countries within Europe that you want it to be sitting [00:47:30] in. So I think for like 5 or 6 biggest countries, it’s then maybe 7 [00:47:35] or £8000 to have it assigned to those countries. But the legwork prior [00:47:40] to that is really kind of how long is a piece of string. And if you can be clear and [00:47:45] efficient with your patent attorney, you can really minimise those costs. I think it [00:47:50] does come down to complexity of the product as well. A toothbrush is essentially pretty simple. [00:47:55] Yeah. Um, you’d be surprised at how complex the patent [00:48:00] is for a simple object. So my advice would be to stick to a simple product if [00:48:05] somebody wants to go down this road, but something that’s far more engineered and complex. [00:48:10] And so it must be into, as you said, you know, over £100,000.

Speaker3: So the conversations, [00:48:15] the conversations with the hygienists made you think, yeah, they’re enthusiastic. [00:48:20] They know the problem I’m talking about. So there is a market here. And [00:48:25] did you feel like that was enough to say, I’m going for this? And or [00:48:30] was there was there had you talked to any other companies regarding, um, licensing? [00:48:35] I had this is where the real, real risk and cost starts now doesn’t [00:48:40] it? At this point in the, in the cycle.

Speaker1: Front load the risk. [00:48:45] I’ve tried to, you know, through speaking to the profession and through speaking to companies as well, [00:48:50] but mostly the profession. When I had a unanimous response from the profession [00:48:55] about number one, but the seriousness of the problem and number two, [00:49:00] about the solution that I was presenting to them, it was it was such [00:49:05] a it was a no brainer. You know, there was simply no doubt from anyone [00:49:10] of the 150 of them. And that was just as resounding, [00:49:15] you know, proof of product market fit. And yes, [00:49:20] it was it was very much on that basis, along with other serious factors like [00:49:25] commercial viability of it, you know, how cheaply can this be produced and [00:49:30] will it actually work? And just with the material science from, from uni, [00:49:35] from, from dentistry, I knew that we could get the performance out of the materials. Uh, [00:49:40] the rough idea of how my manufactured with a simple kind of sliding [00:49:45] mechanism with a tool rather than extra. You know, uh, [00:49:50] cause they call it, um, other aspects of the tool that would make [00:49:55] for a much more complex machine and development process. So [00:50:00] yeah, it was proof of the product market fit. Um, the materials they knew the materials could [00:50:05] perform and that it could be manufactured at scale and be accessible, [00:50:10] accessible to the masses.

Speaker1: It wasn’t some wild, you know, £200 [00:50:15] electric toothbrush or something that was, you know, £5 and it [00:50:20] works and can transform people’s oral health overnight. So I think that was [00:50:25] as much evidence as anybody could ever gather. And and yes, then it came down [00:50:30] to whether companies would take it on under licence. And these behemoths, you know, they move pretty [00:50:35] slowly. And because this seemed like a niche product to them, it [00:50:40] felt like too much of a punt to them. And they were like, they loved it. But they’re like, yeah, but [00:50:45] no thanks. We’re we’re just not sure enough about this. And I could sense they didn’t have [00:50:50] that clinical insight, that real world insight, seeing how a patient holds [00:50:55] a toothbrush, how that the mind’s eye of a patient works. You know, that member [00:51:00] of the public for this situation, it was completely new to them. And [00:51:05] it was on that basis I decided. Well, I’m just going to dip myself. [00:51:10] A had committed to just licensing out IP, but because [00:51:15] I like the manufacturing and because having spoken to the companies and understanding their position, [00:51:20] it just encouraged me more. How many did you get on with it?

Speaker3: How many did you speak to?

Speaker1: 30, [00:51:25] maybe.

Speaker3: 30. Toothbrush type manufacturers? Yeah. [00:51:30] And how did you how did you go about getting their details and how did you approach them?

Speaker1: Linkedin. Linkedin. [00:51:35] And you know, the biggest ones like Unilever and Colgate, they have open innovation [00:51:40] portals. So you submit your product idea [00:51:45] and they you know, they respond. So I think, you know, top five big [00:51:50] players, they they have open innovation portals. But otherwise you’re reaching out personally to people [00:51:55] through LinkedIn.

Speaker3: So you’re going on LinkedIn finding out who’s the CEO of, I don’t know, the TP [00:52:00] or whatever. And and then or somebody in.

Speaker1: Yeah, somebody in [00:52:05] marketing or in R&D. Yeah.

Speaker3: And then sending them a message saying I’ve got [00:52:10] this new product for like go on step by step. What happened?

Speaker1: Okay. I mean, you [00:52:15] know, they’re obviously busy people and I don’t know how many pitches they get every day and things. But just [00:52:20] to introduce that, I might be able to add value to their range [00:52:25] and if they might be willing to look at what I have, and, [00:52:30] you know, I might have needed to reach out to ten people within the same company to get a response. [00:52:35] And it wasn’t necessarily under the Arima, or they just weren’t willing [00:52:40] to respond, whatever. Um, you just have to respect that. So it’s just perseverance [00:52:45] and, you know, trying to reach out to the right people, the relevant people. But [00:52:50] I originally thought it would always need to be sort of R&D people to reach out to because they’re at [00:52:55] the product development end. But often it’s the marketing people because they [00:53:00] are the ones that, you know, they they sell it, they know what the market likes, and they [00:53:05] can feed back the business potential to their boss for for considering this innovation [00:53:10] to add to the range. So it can be it can be surprising people that. You [00:53:15] need to speak to.

Speaker3: Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? So someone listening to this might [00:53:20] be thinking. I’ve not. I haven’t got this in me because I haven’t got the engineering [00:53:25] mind to think about these things. Yeah, but [00:53:30] I think the I think you and I both know, right, that the tapestry that goes [00:53:35] into a successful product, one aspect is engineering and design. Yeah. [00:53:40] But then another aspect is marketing and another aspect is funding. [00:53:45] And you could be any of these guys, you know, your particular interest could be marketing, let’s say. [00:53:50] Yeah. And then absolutely. And then you go to a product designer who’s got someone like Michael sitting there [00:53:55] who likes putting things together and, and and so on. So did it not [00:54:00] put you off that all these big companies didn’t want to know? Did you not think, well, what makes [00:54:05] me think I can do it?

Speaker1: I could understand their position, and I was very much approached it [00:54:10] from wanting to understand their position. And having had having been coached on licensing [00:54:15] to big companies, I had some insight and [00:54:20] I knew what kind of holds them back and how they, you know, they might have a budget [00:54:25] allocation and, you know, a pipeline of projects that, you know, they [00:54:30] like it, but this would be a kind of year two in their pipeline. And [00:54:35] I didn’t want to wait a year or two to see if it fits in their pipeline. So [00:54:40] I could sense the lack of agility within those companies. Yeah. And [00:54:45] also their never ending pursuit of what I would call as a dentist. [00:54:50] Quite gimmicky designs. Of toothbrush. And when I say game, [00:54:55] I mean it’s just it’s just an aesthetic reiteration of the same function and [00:55:00] that it bores me and it excites me, you know? So [00:55:05] I like functional development and I love building beauty into Israel. [00:55:10] Absolutely. But I could see them just changing the visual design all the time and [00:55:15] understood what their business model was to largely stick with what works. And [00:55:20] this is a whole new. Toothbrush. It works on a whole new way, [00:55:25] and I could sense it was just too much of a leap for them to truly measure and understand, [00:55:30] and a sense they didn’t have that broad kind of [00:55:35] understanding of. Just the patient, the member of the public and how they would [00:55:40] how they would respond to this and also how the hygienist would respond to it. [00:55:45] You know, I don’t know how closely they they work with hygienists. I’m sure they have some [00:55:50] in their development, um, departments and things. But I felt I just understood [00:55:55] it from all these angles that the product market fit was just so clear to me.

Speaker3: And, you know, dude, [00:56:00] it might be that a lot of times the product market fit comes in a few years time when when this [00:56:05] problem becomes more obvious and, you know, however much you’re responsible for making this problem [00:56:10] more obvious. But it’s interesting that as a, as a profession, [00:56:15] this issue isn’t really emphasised in our training. Yeah. And so you’re you’re [00:56:20] having to tell dentists hygienists that this is a problem. What [00:56:25] about the communication direct to consumer. Have you have you looked at that. And [00:56:30] and does that have you had any traction there or have you found it easier or harder than [00:56:35] talking to a professional?

Speaker1: It’s, uh it’s interesting. They they are [00:56:40] worried about these teeth. They’ve just lost the tooth, so they’re highly motivated. Somebody [00:56:45] has lost a tooth. They’re on a whole other psychological mindset now about their teeth. [00:56:50] If they’ve developed a finite, you know, outlook for their dentition [00:56:55] and they don’t want to lose more. So highly motivated. And they do [00:57:00] worry about the teeth next to the partial dentures like all the time. And [00:57:05] when once this is in their hand and they put it there at that site, they just get [00:57:10] it, they just get it. And they suddenly feel empowered. They feel in control now [00:57:15] of this area. They suddenly feel not too bad about having a partial denture there. [00:57:20] They I tell them that your denture is actually a wonderful piece of engineering. [00:57:25] It’s been made for your mouth. It does work. You don’t need to lose the teeth next [00:57:30] to it. You can control your oral health completely. And this [00:57:35] is the missing piece. You’ve got your electric toothbrush for everywhere else. Maybe a water flosser for in between [00:57:40] your teeth. And this is for those sites. There are three distinct mechanical [00:57:45] ways of cleaning your mouth reliably every day, so they really get it. Um, [00:57:50] and yeah, so that’s, that’s actually the basis of a big sort of TikTok, [00:57:55] uh, campaign we’re about to launch.

Speaker1: And because it’s so you’re speaking [00:58:00] to them directly and they’ll be sort of live events and things on TikTok [00:58:05] and they’re, you know, they’re sitting at home, they’re not distracted. They’re [00:58:10] they know their problem. They see the solution, they get it. And it’s [00:58:15] just so direct. I’m really looking forward to that part of it. Um, at the moment, interestingly, although [00:58:20] all the hygienists love it and they rave about it, there’s so much friction [00:58:25] to getting this product into their patients hands. You know, their principal needs to agree to stock [00:58:30] the brush and transpose. You know, they don’t want to clutter up reception area more [00:58:35] with more products. And they’re like, yeah, but okay, it’s a £5 toothbrush. And [00:58:40] like, what’s the point of stocking this? And but yeah, we agree it does the job. Can you not just [00:58:45] recommend it to patients. But then if you just recommend it to the patient then patient needs to remember you need [00:58:50] to go home. You need to look it up and then they might lose interest. Yeah. There’s all these layers of [00:58:55] uh obstacles to the patient.

Speaker3: From from from the hygienist. It does need demonstrating. [00:59:00] You know, that’s that’s the important point of hygiene. Shows the guy what to do. [00:59:05] And, you know, before you said £5 price point three accessible, [00:59:10] you know, but from a from a business perspective, it makes it much harder [00:59:15] because cost of acquisition of a new customer has to be below £5. You know, I mean, you [00:59:20] can look at lifetime value and all that, but it has to be way below because of your margins and all that. [00:59:25] What do you what do you sell the package to a practice? I mean, do you sell them a package of [00:59:30] a number of them or how does that work?

Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, sell 20 packs, you know, about [00:59:35] £3 each. Um, so, you know, they can sell it for, you know, [00:59:40] places in London sell it for over £10. Oh, really? Um, yeah. But I mean, [00:59:45] there’s places that they only want to sell it for £4. £4.50. Uh, you know, [00:59:50] they’ll cover their costs and they provide a service to their patient. The patient can access what [00:59:55] they need. And the reality is, most people that need this, you [01:00:00] know, they maybe cannot afford, you know, another £30 [01:00:05] device in their bathroom to use every day. And £5 suddenly empowers them. [01:00:10] Um, you get three months use out of it. That’s, um, [01:00:15] I want I really want the masses to have this in their hands. The masses need it, [01:00:20] and they should have it. So it’s on that basis that I wanted to make it [01:00:25] manufacturable at scale and cheaply and yet perform clinically in anybody’s hands. [01:00:30] And yet on top of that, you could build a business around, you know, a £10 price point, make it more [01:00:35] glittery and fancy shiny, you know? Yeah, all of those things, you know, you can always add that later. [01:00:40] But my focus was, how do I get this to the masses? Because the masses need it.

Speaker3: So [01:00:45] what’s your advice to. Yeah, I mean, loads of dentists have ideas [01:00:50] about different things they can do. Outside of dentistry. [01:00:55] I mean, and, you know, both me and you are kind of still in dentistry, aren’t we? I mean, we’re not we’re not practising, [01:01:00] but we’re in dentistry. Um, let’s let’s say I come across [01:01:05] so many dentists who want to do toothpaste and mouthwash and toothbrushes. And [01:01:10] what’s your advice? What’s your advice? The the pitfalls. What should [01:01:15] they do?

Speaker1: So a year to find somebody who wants to get out of the industry, and [01:01:20] not.

Speaker3: Necessarily someone who wants to do a thing like like, you know, in a way, I’d call you an inventor. [01:01:25] Yeah. Um, and by the way, there’s I say there’s another era. Some people [01:01:30] make people think they have to come up with something completely new to do a new business. And [01:01:35] that’s not necessarily true. You could you could have re-engineered the toothbrush right into a [01:01:40] better TP brush and not have to, you know, explain a whole new thing to people, [01:01:45] for instance, for the sake of the argument. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: And you know, you’re right. I mean, within [01:01:50] everything around you there are, there are, there are assumptions built into [01:01:55] every object. And, you know, things that we’ve taken for granted that are limitations [01:02:00] to everything you touch and hold and what you’re holding and using might have been [01:02:05] engineered 15 years ago and the market might have changed. The market interest [01:02:10] might have changed, materials might have changed, manufacturing processes might have changed. [01:02:15] So if they have a if they have an urge for a fresh approach to something, you [01:02:20] know, if they can, if they can do a bit of market research, if enough people enough [01:02:25] other people share that, you know, passion and urge for that change, [01:02:30] then, you know, they could get on with it. They could pursue it. This [01:02:35] don’t take it for granted that the way we do things, it needs to stay that way. I, [01:02:40] by nature have always questioned the status quo. Everything, every, every [01:02:45] how, every y, every y. Why is it the way it is? And I’ve always questioned [01:02:50] that just out of interest. This is a bit of a nuisance to people, because I kind of go in and [01:02:55] kind of meddle with things and reconfigure things and like, but [01:03:00] and I say, but is this not easier now? Is this I’ve just made your life easier. Oh yeah. Okay. [01:03:05] And you didn’t realise they had been just trying to adapt the whole time [01:03:10] and accepting this limited tool and a tool. It could be a tool, [01:03:15] it could be a toy, it could be any household object. It could be anything we use every [01:03:20] day. So yeah, it’s I do I do encourage people to scratch that itch if they [01:03:25] have that interest in design or creativity.

Speaker3: It’s [01:03:30] so true. What you said that really resonates for me is that the assumptions [01:03:35] the product relied on may be out of date, but they [01:03:40] may be. They may be completely random. You know, I’ve been trying to get my head [01:03:45] around particularly. I mean, you’re looking at sort of objects, right? I’ve been trying to get my head around chemistry. [01:03:50] Right. The chemistry. Why is the chemistry of this like that? And I [01:03:55] was talking to a couple of professors, you know, like leaders in [01:04:00] the field, many, many formulators chemists at, at contract manufacturers, [01:04:05] many, many dentists, competitors are trying to find out why. [01:04:10] Why is this thing like. And no one can tell me no one. Yeah, yeah. [01:04:15]

Speaker1: Yeah I love that I love that.

Speaker3: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Um, and you know it’s like a where [01:04:20] time question, right. Why one hour. Why not all night type thing. Yeah. Is it toxicity. Is [01:04:25] it. You know, what is it. What’s the it. It looks to me now that it just [01:04:30] was just a convention someone decided on in the 70s. Yeah, [01:04:35] yeah. And that’s it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love it.

Speaker1: And that excites [01:04:40] me so much. It’s such a an inspiration that. Because you think what else [01:04:45] can be invented, you know, and are we reinventing the wheel here? And it’s like, it’s not that [01:04:50] dramatic. There’s, you know, there’s always scope and I always will be.

Speaker3: Tell [01:04:55] me about things you would have done differently, mistakes you made.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:05:00] Uh, I think my interest in product design, [01:05:05] you know, it’s my life now and business. So product design and business was with me from [01:05:10] very early on in my childhood, and. As [01:05:15] I dunno, is it my fault? Should I have communicated it more? Those were. Those were the fire in my belly. [01:05:20] And if I had acknowledged that by the age of 11 or 12 that, [01:05:25] you know, this is what I must do as an adult and ignore these, you know, classic, [01:05:30] you know, astronaut, airline pilot, doctor, dentist things, you [01:05:35] know, just feel sense and feel what what you keep thinking about, what [01:05:40] you keep applying your attention to, what you keep testing and experimenting [01:05:45] with. That’s probably. But you know, as a 12 year old, I can’t really blame myself. [01:05:50] But that that was that was where the biggest mistake started beginning. And I ended up in this road, [01:05:55] this academic pathway and this kind of quintessential professional pathway. Um, so [01:06:00] those that’s probably the biggest mistake. Um, but I think then once, once I was into [01:06:05] it and properly miserable and practice ownership. But [01:06:10] it’s kind of it’s a hard it’s a really you’re really in a rut though, because when you’re so [01:06:15] consumed by it, you can’t really see options. But if, if somehow I could have. [01:06:20] And the belief that there are options. I would have broken away sooner [01:06:25] and not consumed the energy and time that I did. Those [01:06:30] are the two probably the biggest aspects of my life that, you know, you [01:06:35] might call a mistake, you know?

Speaker3: We’ll do this. And I’m really impressed by [01:06:40] how far you’ve come since the last time me and you spoke. Um, I’m [01:06:45] excited about the TikTok. I’m interested to see who these denture wearers are on TikTok. But [01:06:50] I know why you’re doing it. I know why you’re doing it. I’m also doing. We [01:06:55] need to compare notes on that. Yeah.

Speaker1: That’s an interesting [01:07:00] idea. Yeah. It’s just it’s a young audience at the moment with TikTok, but it is expanding. They [01:07:05] have to take.

Speaker3: Over all the time myself. But I don’t know about you. Yeah, all the time. [01:07:10]

Speaker1: You know that the word on the street is it’s gonna, you know, take market share from Amazon for [01:07:15] for people’s purchasing habits because the TikTok shop, you know, and and [01:07:20] the Amazon experiences to go on to the Amazon website is such a bland experience. And you’ve basically [01:07:25] already made your choice and you’re just kind of looking, flicking like these 2D pictures. [01:07:30] It’s like, so I don’t like using Amazon. It’s I reckon.

Speaker3: So Amazon is also going [01:07:35] to turn more like TikTok though. Yeah, they’ll they’ll have a social feed on the side of Amazon. Yeah. Good [01:07:40] good. You know what I love about TikTok? How with one push of a button on your phone, the [01:07:45] things arriving in your, you know, it’s like it’s even more frictionless than than Apple Pay. I’ve bought things [01:07:50] on it by mistake. Oh, just there it is. Done. Yeah. I [01:07:55] mean.

Speaker1: It’s amazing and it’s immersive. And, you know, people are there. They’re making choices based [01:08:00] on their their their emotion, their the experience being [01:08:05] on, you know, watching and being on the app. They’re [01:08:10] shopping based on an experience. First wear an app and you go to Amazon. You’re shopping based on [01:08:15] a logical choice, which is boring, you know? So it’s like that’s the [01:08:20] way forward.

Speaker3: Tommy, what do you need now? Do you need you know, I guess you need customers. Do [01:08:25] you need do you need investors?

Speaker1: I think we’re okay just now for funds. And, [01:08:30] you know, the TikTok thing is really I’m really excited about that. And it is the perfect [01:08:35] type of product for TikTok for that type of platform. Yeah. So yeah, we’ll just see how it goes [01:08:40] and hopefully it can just continue to be self-funded, you know?

Speaker3: So if someone if someone [01:08:45] wants to get in touch they go through the same website.

Speaker1: Yeah. There’s a contact [01:08:50] form in there. I’d be happy to speak to anybody and, you know, happy to speak to any dentists who, who love [01:08:55] product design and have ideas about that and different options for them within that, [01:09:00] um, realistic risk free options to get an idea into the market. [01:09:05] It doesn’t need to be a massive, risky venture. Yeah.

Speaker3: Amazing. [01:09:10] We’ve come to the end of our time. Let’s let’s get through the final questions, buddy. Yeah. [01:09:15] Fantasy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive? Yes. [01:09:20]

Speaker1: Party. Yeah. I think you know, the whole product [01:09:25] and entrepreneurship is my life now. And I totally am immersed in it. [01:09:30] And I’ve been reborn. And so it’d be related to that. I think, you know, James Dyson [01:09:35] and how he has built his empire on redesigning [01:09:40] objects that we have taken for granted in life and found new layers of innovation [01:09:45] and redeployment of current technology into these [01:09:50] stunning and ergonomic, amazing inventions, [01:09:55] and to just to just get an insight. And he seems so peaceful and happy within his life [01:10:00] and path, and where he’s brought his passion and [01:10:05] his skills and that would be cool. Um, also, I think maybe [01:10:10] David Gilmour from Pink Floyd, he, um, you know, I’ve [01:10:15] been a fan of Pink Floyd since I was like 7 or 8. And again, [01:10:20] his his philosophy in life and combining that with his musical talent [01:10:25] to bring us a product which nourishes endlessly [01:10:30] and. Has been such a huge influence to me. Um, [01:10:35] and it’s just, just seems like a great guy to. To hang out with. [01:10:40] Um, so to have him as well. And and also this 1st May surprise you. [01:10:45] This relates to basically having somebody close. To [01:10:50] bounce ideas from who’s maybe a few steps ahead of me, but not so [01:10:55] far ahead. That is legendary, but still massive influence. And it would be [01:11:00] you Payman me. Yeah. So take this [01:11:05] as a as an official invitation. You’re welcome to dinner anytime. And you’re doing [01:11:10] what I want to do. You’re launching amazing products into the market. Is highly respected [01:11:15] figure and, you know, great products that work and making [01:11:20] a real difference to people. Um, you’ve got that kind of tenacious, you know, never [01:11:25] ending pursuit for development and improvement. And, you know, you’re you’re kind [01:11:30] of you’re you’re doing what I want to do. You’re nice guy. And it would just be [01:11:35] great.

Speaker3: Did not expect you to waste a vote on me.

Speaker1: I was I.

Speaker3: Was trying to second guess you. I [01:11:40] was like, Ellen’s coming. Ellen’s coming. Ellen’s coming.

Speaker1: You’re [01:11:45] welcome. Anytime. But yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah, I love, love to do. [01:11:50] And same. Same with you in London, my buddy. Same with you in London. You must come to London once in a while, right?

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:11:55] yeah, I do try to get down, um, just a bit mad. Still here, but. Yeah, maybe [01:12:00] over the summer or into autumn.

Speaker3: Final. Final question. It’s a [01:12:05] deathbed one. On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones. You [01:12:10] can give them three pieces of advice. What would they be?

Speaker1: Three [01:12:15] pieces of advice for my loved ones. I think. First one I think [01:12:20] would be. Once. Once you’ve got your attitude sorted [01:12:25] and sorted yourself as a person and you’ve become [01:12:30] a hard working type, whether it’s at school age or even in adulthood. [01:12:35] Once that’s established, follow your passion. And [01:12:40] I know everybody barks on about this in the internet. Like follow your passion, follow your dreams. Get [01:12:45] get your get your shit together first, right as a person. Once [01:12:50] you know that you’re committed to being responsible to serving society, [01:12:55] you have a. Cleanouts should your just. [01:13:00] Just do what you want. Do what you want if you’re going to work hard. Three [01:13:05] one, and I didn’t do that early enough. I should have done that 30 [01:13:10] years ago when I was in my early teens. Yeah. So yeah. Um, [01:13:15] that’s the first one. I think the other one is in life, [01:13:20] in relationships, in business, and a service as a service provider. [01:13:25] Uh, know your audience? Have [01:13:30] an undying and undeniable interest in the person [01:13:35] in front of you. For this contact, [01:13:40] this relationship, this engagement, this service provision under that. No, no. Your [01:13:45] audience, um, whether it’s, you know, dental treatment, whether it’s in conversation, [01:13:50] um. They have a background, they have a, you know, preconception [01:13:55] of things.

Speaker1: They have their own nature, their own needs. And [01:14:00] now that was that was very powerful for me through dentistry and [01:14:05] in business and relationships. That’s the second one. Um, [01:14:10] and the third one. I’ve just written down [01:14:15] here, come in in a crisis. And it’s it’s [01:14:20] when, when life happens, when when shit happens and [01:14:25] you’re on your knees and the the calmness, the the the. [01:14:30] You know the belief in those moments. That [01:14:35] as a way and to stay calm. Through that process [01:14:40] to to to to not add. Emotion [01:14:45] onto what is already a really, really hard situation. If you can stay calm in those [01:14:50] crises and have the belief, the authentic voice [01:14:55] that comes. The that pulls you out [01:15:00] the light. I call it the light and the light that comes [01:15:05] in those dark moments. It comes. It will come and [01:15:10] believe in it. And as you’re falling into the crisis, that [01:15:15] light will appear. And as you’re falling, it doesn’t, it doesn’t doesn’t feel [01:15:20] like that will ever come. And some people never make it out of that, bless them, [01:15:25] you know. But. Crisis happens in life and. But the light comes if [01:15:30] you’re calm and you wait for it and you believe in it. So that’s the other. That would be the third [01:15:35] bit of advice.

Speaker3: Very lovely man. A bit like when you say crisis, you’re not talking [01:15:40] about the lingual side of that tooth falling off, right?

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: Light [01:15:45] will come. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing [01:15:50] this, buddy. I think I feel like I need to catch up with you again in a couple of years time, see where Ergo Proxy [01:15:55] has gone. And even more exciting, what other products you’ve you’ve come out with and [01:16:00] what other things you’ve turned turned your hand to. But really super impressed that you told me [01:16:05] what you were going to do a couple of years ago, whenever it was. Was it a couple of years ago? It was. It was Covid.

Speaker1: Yeah, I think yeah. [01:16:10] Two years ago. Yeah.

Speaker3: And then at least and then you’ve gone ahead and done it exactly as you said. And [01:16:15] now I wish you the best my buddy. It’s really, really impressive. Well done buddy.

Speaker1: Thank you so much and [01:16:20] thanks for the opportunity. And um, yeah, great to speak to you, buddy. And, uh, I hope to catch up with you in London [01:16:25] someday.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:16:30] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:16:35] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:16:40] and Prav Solanki.

Speaker4: Thanks for listening, guys. If [01:16:45] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:16:50] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:16:55] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:17:00] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:17:05] out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker4: And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Speaker1: I think the most important thing in life is to have to develop an ambition. You [00:00:05] can’t say I’m studying this because and [00:00:10] I don’t know what I’m going to do at the end. I think it’s always better to set up a goal and [00:00:15] then you work towards this goal.

Speaker2: This is mind [00:00:20] movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:25] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts [00:00:30] Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi. Hi [00:00:35] everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers Season two. Today [00:00:40] I am bringing my dad, Doctor Alex Iskandar, which makes me so happy because [00:00:45] he literally is my hero. And you know, Payman asked me. He said, what’s [00:00:50] the angle? And I said, you know, my dad is an incredible because his story of he always downplays it, like [00:00:55] typically from someone that comes from the Middle East. But his story is incredible how he came to the UK, [00:01:00] how he created what he created, harnessed the right kind of values [00:01:05] in me and my sister, who’s ended up working really hard. And on top of that, he’s one of the top [00:01:10] gynaecologists in the UK, which is true. And what’s amazing is any time I post [00:01:15] him a whole load of people on my Instagram, go, he’s my gynaecologist, you know, and [00:01:20] they say, always the most wonderful things about you. Oh, my father also [00:01:25] is the person that told me to do egg freezing. I think way before it was topical, there [00:01:30] was a lot of taboo, and he’d been talking about it a long before people had started doing it. And [00:01:35] I think it’s a really great way for people who are listening to this podcast [00:01:40] to really understand the implications for female health and why that’s beneficial. So welcome, daddy.

Speaker1: Hi. [00:01:45] Thank you. Welcome to you. Thank you for having me on your shows.

Speaker2: Amazing. Okay, [00:01:50] dad. So I want people to hear your story about how you came to the UK from Egypt. [00:01:55]

Speaker1: Okay, so back in the 60s, [00:02:00] uh, when I went to medical school in 1963. [00:02:05] I immediately knew after the third or fourth [00:02:10] year that I wanted to be an obstetrician gynaecologist. Actually, it’s just the [00:02:15] first moment I delivered a baby. I just felt [00:02:20] joy and happiness and I thought I did a great job. In fact, just the [00:02:25] baby came out and I just held the baby. But it was just a great experience. And, [00:02:30] um, and from then onwards, I just planned to be a gynaecologist. And [00:02:35] in the 60s and still until today, [00:02:40] uh, being a member of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists [00:02:45] in the UK has always been a big name, you know, to be a member of that college, very distinguished. [00:02:50] And so it’s been my ambition and ambition of a lot of people in [00:02:55] Egypt, and I’m sure around the world and I’m sure until today. So it was more famous than the American [00:03:00] board at that time. So I planned my journey that I’m [00:03:05] going to leave at the end of my first year year internship. To [00:03:10] go to UK to study for the membership and train [00:03:15] because again, the British training, English training at that time was one of the best. [00:03:20] Okay. So, uh, the last year of my [00:03:25] internship, last year in university, an internship was not an easy year because [00:03:30] during my working hours, I had to obtain the approval of [00:03:35] my work where I was working, the approval of the army [00:03:40] to let me go because I was supposed to be going to the Army for the regular, [00:03:45] uh, um.

Speaker3: Uh, military service.

Speaker1: Military [00:03:50] service.

Speaker2: So that was normal in Egypt. I didn’t even know that today.

Speaker1: Until today. Do you know that? But [00:03:55] only yes. So at 18, you are supposed to go to.

Speaker2: So everyone does.

Speaker1: It. Everyone one does [00:04:00] it. Even Doctor George did it. Wow. So you’re only exempted if you’re the only son. I [00:04:05] was the only son. But it was, uh, still temporary because [00:04:10] my mother could have had another another boy. And therefore, both of us have to go. [00:04:15] But. So how.

Speaker3: Old? How old were you when you decided that was. [00:04:20]

Speaker1: I was about 23 at that time. So when [00:04:25] I was in that position, uh, so I actually went, I said I wanted [00:04:30] a final, uh, exemption from the military because I was [00:04:35] the only son, and my mother had a strict to me. Now, funny enough, I went to the. So [00:04:40] I went to the army officer and I said, listen, but, you know, my mother had her womb out, so [00:04:45] she’s not going to have any more children, so you don’t have to worry. He said, I’ve never had that [00:04:50] that heard of that before, doctor. So we still have to make it temporary. It was [00:04:55] the most difficult period of my internship for [00:05:00] three months trying to obtain a a visa. We had exit visa [00:05:05] at that time. So you have to have the government to sign to say you can go out of the country, which [00:05:10] I hated, and it’s no longer the case. However, anyway, I managed with [00:05:15] difficulty and who I was.

Speaker2: How did you get your plane ticket to England?

Speaker1: Well, actually my [00:05:20] my mother was very clever, so I was engaged to a girl whom she didn’t like, [00:05:25] funny enough. And, uh, and but I liked [00:05:30] her. And I said, you know, it doesn’t matter if you don’t like her. I like her. So she knew the only [00:05:35] way to get me out was a one way ticket to pursue my dream in the UK. [00:05:40] And who could refuse a ticket to the UK to study and to [00:05:45] see the Beatles country? The happy you’ve never.

Speaker3: Been before.

Speaker1: Never been?

Speaker3: And what were your [00:05:50] initial reaction when you when you got the what excitement?

Speaker1: I mean, I was only 22, [00:05:55] 23 when she said, and London.

Speaker3: In the 60s was the centre of the world. Right?

Speaker1: No, no, I mean, not many [00:06:00] people travelled like that nowadays. I mean, it was, you know, fantastic to travel. And I also [00:06:05] had my best friend here already. So I’m going to join him as well. And I’m going to work in, [00:06:10] uh, in uh, British hospitals. And the NHS was a great institution, [00:06:15] really to train. So everybody aspired to go and train in [00:06:20] the UK. So here we are. I took the flight, I landed, [00:06:25] uh, stayed with my friend, and the sooner or later, 2 to 3 months [00:06:30] later, I took my first post in Lincoln.

Speaker2: Lincoln, can you do I know, [00:06:35] and.

Speaker1: I wanted to stay in London. Really? Did you.

Speaker2: Cry?

Speaker1: No I didn’t, I was excited to [00:06:40] see the countryside. Everybody talked about the countryside of England, but I was disappointed. [00:06:45] Why? Why? Number one? I took a train, [00:06:50] a very cold train from King’s Cross to Newark, [00:06:55] I remember. And when I arrived, number one, the train [00:07:00] that I had actually was not luxurious as the train we had in Egypt. So [00:07:05] in Egypt we had a Hungarian kind of train, which was really like a bullet [00:07:10] train nowadays. But the train I had from King’s Cross was really like [00:07:15] a steam train from the past. I was really disappointed. And anyway, I [00:07:20] got to Newark, small station, empty and cold. It [00:07:25] was cold. It was the month of December.

Speaker2: And you were in summer clothes, [00:07:30] I assume? Well, of.

Speaker1: Course I didn’t have heavy clothes. It took me years to accept [00:07:35] that this country needs a heavy coat. So I had a light coat. And anyway, it was a [00:07:40] very small train to take me from Newark to Lincoln. And when I got to Lincoln, [00:07:45] it was dark. It was lonely. There was nobody there at 930. I [00:07:50] remember in Egypt it’s a 24 hour party. You had people open all [00:07:55] the time. So I was very disappointed. Anyway, I landed [00:08:00] in a good health hospital eventually.

Speaker2: How were you funding medical school?

Speaker1: Medical [00:08:05] school in Egypt was free. But when.

Speaker2: You got to the UK, that.

Speaker1: Was [00:08:10] all. I came to the UK with. You’re not allowed to take more than 30 sterling pounds [00:08:15] £30 in his pocket.

Speaker2: That’s it.

Speaker1: 30 but 30, you know. Remember at that time the [00:08:20] the salary of a doctor was about £106 per month, but [00:08:25] still £30 was not much. So I had to work in London in the first two months I [00:08:30] waiter, I did no first you didn’t know that. First [00:08:35] I did kitchen porter.

Speaker2: Was the.

Speaker4: Kitchen kitchen.

Speaker1: Wash wash wash.

Speaker3: Washing [00:08:40] up the dishes.

Speaker2: Spaghetti house no.

Speaker1: Well it was the one behind I think it [00:08:45] was. It was spaghetti house.

Speaker4: Spaghetti house. Yeah.

Speaker1: Because the chef was [00:08:50] a friend of mine and he said, do you want to come? Just temporary. And I thought dishwashers, [00:08:55] you know, plates and spoons and probably have a machine as well. But in fact, [00:09:00] no. When you work as a kitchen porter, junior kitchen porter, remember [00:09:05] the other one who was there before you goes to the washing machine or dishwasher [00:09:10] and you go to the big, big saucepans. You are [00:09:15] talking about big saucepans. You have you need a ladder to to wipe it inside. Did [00:09:20] you.

Speaker3: Already speak English, French, Arabic, some.

Speaker1: English, Arabic of course, but some English, [00:09:25] which I was a better communicator than anybody who didn’t know English. So I could communicate [00:09:30] and I could speak good English. Actually, relatively speaking, I [00:09:35] now I will articulate it that you think that I understand English. So I managed to get by [00:09:40] very well. Anyway, I resigned, I walked out after two hours. I couldn’t do [00:09:45] that. And then I enlisted in a cleaner, uh, agency shop. So. [00:09:50] And I did some cleaning shop. I enjoyed that, actually. The dad.

Speaker2: Loves it. He’s like.

Speaker4: Quiet. I’m [00:09:55] a clean.

Speaker1: Person. He likes.

Speaker4: It. He loves.

Speaker1: Well, I’m. I’m a Boy scout. I was a boy Scout. Really? So [00:10:00] I mean, that helped me a lot to understand many things in life anyway. And [00:10:05] from there I progressed into a waiter at, uh, Texas Pancake House, [00:10:10] which was good. And I saved some money on top of the £30. I think I managed [00:10:15] to get it up to 100, 120 in in a couple of months. It was not too bad with the tips. [00:10:20] And, uh, we encouraged the people who didn’t pay tips to pay tips by [00:10:25] singing to them after the service in French sometimes, or [00:10:30] in Spanish. There was a lovely Spanish boy with me anyway, so. But [00:10:35] I was so pleased. I really appreciated the medical degree then. I [00:10:40] really, really appreciate it. So when you do those other things, you know, and I strongly [00:10:45] recommend everybody to have a degree because a degree really separates you from [00:10:50] the big, big mass. Yes, I disagree okay.

Speaker2: So I’m going to disagree with you now obviously, [00:10:55] like growing up my instilled values and Payman, you can share your thoughts with your own children. [00:11:00] It was instilled you have to go to university. As my mum and dad always said, a degree is worth [00:11:05] its weight in gold. However, as time has gone on and I’ve told you this, I [00:11:10] have met plenty of people who are more successful than people with degrees, especially [00:11:15] in the business world, and some of them that have elevated more. And they would argue that [00:11:20] a degrees are useless and a waste of time. So I think it depends on the person and what they want to do. If you [00:11:25] want to be a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer, etc., then of course it matters what degree [00:11:30] that you do. But I think now people can be entrepreneurial, online and very smart and [00:11:35] very successful without having degrees, I’d say.

Speaker3: I’d say education is less important than it [00:11:40] was back in, in in your day. I remember my, my dad said his degree from [00:11:45] Belfast was like a ticket to printing money back home. Yeah. You know, so it’s that [00:11:50] it’s no longer like that.

Speaker2: Yeah, but what if your children.

Speaker3: Said they didn’t? But with the kids, I almost [00:11:55] see university as like a a holiday or something. Yeah. Like something you should. [00:12:00] Something they should be looking forward to. So if, if they decide they don’t want to go, [00:12:05] I’d say they’re missing out on something like a.

Speaker2: Life experience.

Speaker3: The actual experience of it. And I know your your, your [00:12:10] college wasn’t as fun as mine. I, we had that episode. Yeah, but but [00:12:15] nonetheless, I’d say they’re missing out on just the experience of it. [00:12:20] But I think you’re right that, you know, okay, you could give three years to I agree something else. [00:12:25]

Speaker1: I agree, but I also disagree. Just tell me, what are the percentage [00:12:30] of people without a degree who can be something without [00:12:35] without going to university? Just a figure, just a figure in a hundred person who [00:12:40] are already around us? How many?

Speaker2: What do you think?

Speaker1: Percentage? Uh. [00:12:45]

Speaker3: I mean, okay. Yeah, a lower, a lower, [00:12:50] a lower percentage.

Speaker1: Is 1%, uh, too little or too.

Speaker3: Much? No. Too little, too little. [00:12:55] Yeah. That’s really. Yeah. You can be super successful without a degree. You can more than 1%. [00:13:00]

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: Oh, yeah. And you can be super unsuccessful with it.

Speaker1: I agree, I think. Listen, so [00:13:05] I’ve.

Speaker2: Actually googled it. Yeah. So it says based on the findings from Entrepreneur.com. [00:13:10] Those who become highly successful without an education appear [00:13:15] to be roughly 6%. So I don’t know.

Speaker1: That’s still 94% [00:13:20] who can make it. And among the entrepreneurs? Well, no, no.

Speaker2: But listen to [00:13:25] this. The percentage of jobs this is from Harvard Business Review. The percentage of jobs requiring [00:13:30] a college degree fell from 51% in 2070 [00:13:35] to 44% in 2021. So most some people now are not requiring [00:13:40] degrees.

Speaker4: Now.

Speaker1: In my days.

Speaker3: No no no, that’s right, that’s right.

Speaker2: That’s what he’s.

Speaker1: Saying. In my [00:13:45] days it was different. Okay, so I agree I was a frustrated entrepreneur. [00:13:50] I could have gone into business straight away after secondary school. [00:13:55] Now secondary school is definitely.

Speaker3: What did your dad do?

Speaker1: Well, he was a civil servant. He was [00:14:00] not really ambitious. He was happy with and he wanted to have a pension. And there are many [00:14:05] people, I think the majority of people want a stable job and a salary. Not [00:14:10] everybody is an entrepreneur. I’m not sure whether you know, whether you can [00:14:15] apply that to everyone. But, you know, if you have an entrepreneurial skills, such [00:14:20] as Zuckerberg, for example. I mean, he knew he had a talent or Richard.

Speaker2: Branson. [00:14:25]

Speaker1: Whatever. You know, those are people who recognise themselves and got frustrated with education. [00:14:30] I got frustrated with education initially because I was an entrepreneur. [00:14:35] But how many business, how many business people succeed? How many end [00:14:40] that also, I.

Speaker2: Think also, but the thing is, is that the school and education system is extremely flawed because [00:14:45] it’s like one fits all kind of model and also but listen like, you know, as well. For example, [00:14:50] when I was young at school, I struggled academically. I’m not talking about Queens when I worked really [00:14:55] hard and etc. but I struggled academically and teachers didn’t help, you [00:15:00] know, my strengths. They would focus on my weaknesses. For example, like, I’m lucky because Queens College, [00:15:05] which was a school that I went to, it was more designed for like the creative type of person, which then [00:15:10] I could thrive in that environment better. But like for example, the education system, like Richard [00:15:15] Branson, is he, um, dyslexic or. Yeah, he’s dyslexic, you know, so he physically [00:15:20] struggled to read and write, for example. But his skills he have obviously he’s an [00:15:25] intelligent person in a different way.

Speaker3: I think it comes to. Do you do you have any sort of feelings of [00:15:30] you might not have become a dentist if you if you weren’t groomed to become a dentist. And, and do you [00:15:35] think that you would be something, something else. Well that you’d rather be.

Speaker2: Well, my dad knows the story [00:15:40] already. I mean, I was always good at drama and English literature. Do you remember? I was really good at [00:15:45] that. And some of my English teachers even said, why don’t you go to university and study English? Do you remember [00:15:50] the teacher saying this? And they said, Go to Oxford? Miss Kalia said that, go, go, [00:15:55] here we go. Look, it sounds like that. And my dad said, listen, don’t waste your time. [00:16:00] Do do the dentistry and you can always do English later.

Speaker4: Whatever you want to do. Yeah, but listen. [00:16:05]

Speaker1: But you had a flair for dentistry.

Speaker4: Of course I wanted.

Speaker2: To be a dentist since I was.

Speaker1: 12. Yeah. I mean, you know, at nine we visited [00:16:10] my cousin in LA who was a successful dentist, and I loved it. And she looked [00:16:15] she loved it because, you know, she had a nice house and in Santa Monica in LA. And [00:16:20] she immediately said, dad, I want to be a dentist.

Speaker3: And what kind of a kid was she?

Speaker4: Fiona? [00:16:25]

Speaker1: She was a strong kid. She was. She knew what she wanted. Handful from [00:16:30] three years old. She would really. She has a strong mind. [00:16:35] That’s what I want. Wow. She she shout at me. So once I was shouting at her mom and [00:16:40] she was only a baby then she was maybe one year plus. She shouted back at me. [00:16:45] She said like that? She couldn’t say shout back, but she [00:16:50] just made a noise to say that she didn’t like what I said. She she’s all been been always [00:16:55] been strong, always been ambitious as well. I think the most important thing in life is [00:17:00] to have to develop an ambition. You can’t say I’m studying this because [00:17:05] and I don’t know what I’m going to do at the end. I think it’s always [00:17:10] better to set up a goal and then you work towards this goal about the education system. [00:17:15] What I think I would have liked if I, if I would have [00:17:20] known that I want to be a doctor at the age of 13, 14. [00:17:25] I would rather have made that choice at that age. And there is a specialised [00:17:30] school from then. I entered medical school then because everything I [00:17:35] studied then from advanced maths to advanced chemistry, [00:17:40] I mean, you need the basics, but you don’t need the advanced one. You know, I forgot all about it. Most [00:17:45] of us forgot.

Speaker2: But people say, for example, that the things like the education system is extremely outdated [00:17:50] and I would I would agree as well. They agree. They said they don’t teach you anything about taxes. They don’t teach [00:17:55] you anything about fertility. Correct. Yet they teach you Pythagoras theorem. You know what I mean? Like, and [00:18:00] it’s like, when have we ever used it?

Speaker1: They concentrate on the basics. And I think there is a reason for that very important [00:18:05] reason, actually. You have to understand that they want you to be a researcher and. [00:18:10] Advance your speciality. They don’t want everybody just to open a clinic and just [00:18:15] really carry on with what they’re doing.

Speaker2: But I’m talking about even like primary school and secondary school as well. Like there’s [00:18:20] such a disconnect. Like for example, people don’t have a basic understanding, including dentists about [00:18:25] accounting, for example, taxes, things like this. We don’t know. You know what I mean? You’re meant to learn. [00:18:30] And actually if you those are important life skills and extremely helpful. Now [00:18:35] I want to talk to you, dad, a little bit about your time as a junior doctor. [00:18:40] As we know, junior doctors now, for the first time in many years, are speaking out [00:18:45] about their experiences. Nhs dentistry is also in a [00:18:50] huge crisis. I haven’t talked to you about it. As you know, I worked for many years on the NHS. Ten years. My dad [00:18:55] made it very, very clear to me. He said you do your time on the NHS by the way, you know, and you know, a lot of dentists don’t do that. He said to [00:19:00] me, you do your time on there. That’s what he said.

Speaker4: And we all have. We all have to do. A [00:19:05] lot of people don’t. It’s a fantastic.

Speaker3: I didn’t.

Speaker2: See he didn’t.

Speaker4: Really. Yeah, yeah. [00:19:10]

Speaker2: So, so.

Speaker4: But it may.

Speaker1: Be different in dentistry.

Speaker2: Why didn’t.

Speaker4: You.

Speaker3: Because [00:19:15] I didn’t want a third party in between me and the patient.

Speaker1: But did you train before [00:19:20] you came here? Sorry.

Speaker4: Were you born here?

Speaker3: Yeah, I trained here, I trained here.

Speaker1: So you trained. [00:19:25]

Speaker3: I trained here.

Speaker2: But he didn’t have to work on the NHS.

Speaker4: He did his training.

Speaker1: But you trained the NHS. You mean just one year. [00:19:30] So like.

Speaker2: He’s saying.

Speaker3: Oh, I did the one year. The.

Speaker1: The only one year.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah I did, I [00:19:35] did university here and then one year that you have to do. Yes.

Speaker1: But I think you can do that with dentistry [00:19:40] that. But you can’t do it with medicine because you need them. You need the experience.

Speaker4: I [00:19:45] would.

Speaker2: Say. And I you know, people might think that I’m quite bold saying this, but I would say arguably [00:19:50] sometimes working in systems like that can actually de-skill you. Because I did [00:19:55] I did so many years using materials that the budget allowed for [00:20:00] on the NHS system. So for example, like the silver fillings and all this stuff that I actually [00:20:05] didn’t learn how to do, like the white fillings and things like that. So actually my skills are much less than my [00:20:10] colleagues that started doing that work. Of course, you can do that kind of work within the health care system. [00:20:15] It’s just more limited. You know.

Speaker3: People, young dentists ask me all the time, what should I do? [00:20:20] Yeah. And, and our young doctors probably asking you the same question, what should I do? And the [00:20:25] normal advice is do three four years on the NHS, learn [00:20:30] your skill sort of thing, try lots of different things, see what you like, [00:20:35] then start going into those things that you like. But my advice is kind of opposite. [00:20:40] My my advice is, uh, don’t stay in, you know, pick something, pick something, anything. [00:20:45] Yeah, get good at something. And, uh, don’t go into NHS at all because. Because [00:20:50] the standards are low on the NHS. Um, as far as materials, time that you’re given [00:20:55] and so forth, in dentistry, it’s not the same.

Speaker1: I agree. Well, no, no, even in medicine, [00:21:00] let me tell you also that I did general training for [00:21:05] an average of five years until I got my membership. Yeah. [00:21:10] During those five years of training, which I value very much, I worked so hard. I [00:21:15] did a lot of operations which made me a competent gynaecologist more than the today’s [00:21:20] gynaecologist. Sorry, today’s gynaecologist, but you don’t do enough training really like [00:21:25] what we did. But again, is that required? People then specialise. So [00:21:30] we didn’t have subspecialization then. So I had to start [00:21:35] thinking about Subspecialized Subspecializing. So I [00:21:40] actually started to develop some interest in 1973. During [00:21:45] my NHS years I developed an interest in ultrasound. Ultrasound was very [00:21:50] early then. You could only see blips, you couldn’t see a picture. Oh, and we used big [00:21:55] machines. Then from there we. And then I finished my membership in 1977. [00:22:00] So I started 72. Five years was the average. And then I’m again [00:22:05] I thought, I’m qualified. I thought I’m just done and now I want to go out on [00:22:10] my own to practice. Would would have been wrong. Why? In the following two years, [00:22:15] I’ve also learned additional surgical experience. I’ve also started [00:22:20] to do real ultrasound, and then two years later I thought, well, that’s [00:22:25] it, I have enough now. I can’t face the world alone. But I decided to take advanced [00:22:30] three years in research at King’s College and then learn more about [00:22:35] ultra.

Speaker2: Was that based on the recommendation of your consultants? No. Okay, [00:22:40] so you did that. He became.

Speaker4: An expert.

Speaker1: I did that because I wanted.

Speaker2: To become an expert.

Speaker1: Well, I was planning [00:22:45] to go back home and have a lot of experience, like what you did here, but you did [00:22:50] that privately. So I did it in the NHS because there was nothing private. You had to work with the top people [00:22:55] like Stuart Campbell that I worked with in ultrasound. And then eventually when I really [00:23:00] left the NHS, NHS and resigned completely in 1984 [00:23:05] and then I went to the Middle East, I still developed. I worked in institutions where I had to teach. [00:23:10] Myself fertility. So I became multitask. The [00:23:15] problem because I pursued a career which allows in myself. I took it myself [00:23:20] like you. Now that today’s doctors subspecialize [00:23:25] five years after. And if you work in the NHS, [00:23:30] you only work in one subject. They don’t want you to be multitask anymore. So [00:23:35] my time is different from this time and that’s the NHS and you know.

Speaker2: But let’s [00:23:40] talk a little bit about your junior doctor experience because as I said to you, I don’t you know, you qualified [00:23:45] so many years ago and I think the situation has somewhat got worse for junior [00:23:50] doctors. And we’re living, you know, Gen Z in the millennials, they’re much more outspoken. [00:23:55] But do you think?

Speaker3: Yeah, I think that’s the thing. I don’t think the situation has got worse. The situation was [00:24:00] very hard for junior doctors.

Speaker2: So what like what kind of things is it wasn’t easier.

Speaker1: It was harder.

Speaker4: Yeah. [00:24:05]

Speaker3: They should do more work.

Speaker4: Let me.

Speaker2: Talk us through the kind of things that.

Speaker4: Happened to tell you.

Speaker1: Then. So I, you know, my [00:24:10] initial years as a senior House officer was I had to be on call one [00:24:15] and two and sometimes wanting to talk in obstetrics, you’re up all night. [00:24:20] And when my colleague one, one, one of my colleagues went off, he couldn’t find [00:24:25] the locum. They said, do you mind to cover 1 in 1? Being a young [00:24:30] hero, I did it for 15 days straight. They said, we will pay you. [00:24:35] But then, in fact, I wasn’t paid because they said, we can’t find how to pay you because you’re [00:24:40] only you’re not allowed to do overtime. And I accept it then because I was grateful [00:24:45] for the system teaching me.

Speaker2: This is such an interesting point because for me now, [00:24:50] and I want you to chime in as well, a lot of people, they say that the new generation [00:24:55] don’t want to work as hard. They very much say, this is the hours I want to do. They come to job interviews [00:25:00] now and they actually say so this even I’ve seen it within my own clinic, whether it’s dentist, [00:25:05] auxiliary stuff, they decide what hours they want to work. They also very much [00:25:10] prioritise their lifestyle because they don’t want to be burnt out, they don’t want to be tired, [00:25:15] etc. and I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing because people are a good thing. [00:25:20] See, my dad’s doing this right. And I think because also I am the kind of person that, you know, [00:25:25] my first NHS practice, I was on £8.75 a UDA. Some of my friends [00:25:30] were on way more, but I just accepted it and if they wanted me to do overtime, I accepted it. And if [00:25:35] they wanted me to do Saturdays, I accepted it. Do you see what I mean? Whereas now people would argue.

Speaker3: The thing [00:25:40] is, it doesn’t go with running a super efficient business to have people who [00:25:45] are only in one day, a week or two days a week, especially in the mixed practices. Right? And so I [00:25:50] know loads of principles of mixed practices when when a young dentist comes and says, I want to do three [00:25:55] days a week and they do, you know, now and self-care and whatever, they don’t like that. [00:26:00] Yeah, but.

Speaker1: We couldn’t do that in our time.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. But but but now I couldn’t have.

Speaker4: What do you think about it. I couldn’t, [00:26:05] I.

Speaker1: Couldn’t have driving lessons even really to commit because I finished, you know, later [00:26:10] than, you know, the time. And many times I said, you know, do you mind if I go because I have a driving lesson, [00:26:15] but, you know, you’re doing surgery at 630, 7:00, so we had to stay. But do you.

Speaker2: Think it’s better [00:26:20] now that people, including medical. I think.

Speaker4: It’s better.

Speaker1: I would I would like to be a [00:26:25] junior doctor now. However, the system was much more forgiving. The people [00:26:30] were lovely. There was no complaints. Then. If things went wrong, you say, oh, don’t [00:26:35] worry doctor, things sometimes go wrong. So we had a culture of forgiveness and.

Speaker4: The GMC. [00:26:40]

Speaker1: Around. I like that culture better then.

Speaker2: Was the GMC around then?

Speaker4: Of course.

Speaker1: Oh absolutely. [00:26:45] Around.

Speaker2: And but was it less of a complaint culture with the.

Speaker1: Less of a complaint?

Speaker3: I think.

Speaker4: They [00:26:50] appreciated.

Speaker1: Doctors more.

Speaker3: Guyanese get sued more than all other doctors, don’t they?

Speaker1: One of the highest.

Speaker3: One of the highest [00:26:55] really more.

Speaker2: Than plastics.

Speaker3: Because it’s kids involved, right. So when something goes wrong, people want to [00:27:00] find they.

Speaker1: Are in the first three, you know, worst.

Speaker4: Subs. That’s why you gave up obstetrics. [00:27:05]

Speaker1: Absolutely. So your insurance I would have had to pay 100,000 back in 1999 [00:27:10] per year. Nowadays. Now nowadays they pay 200, 250,000. [00:27:15] And that’s to do it. Well that’s why, that’s why if you want to have a baby [00:27:20] privately now, they will put you. They would want you to put down payment at the Portland [00:27:25] of 30,000 before you enter the hospital.

Speaker2: Okay. So my question [00:27:30] for you this and obviously you don’t have to answer. It’s too difficult. But did you ever have an incident where a baby died [00:27:35] when you delivered the baby.

Speaker4: Yes of course.

Speaker2: How did that impact you?

Speaker4: I’ve had.

Speaker1: Incidents. When [00:27:40] a baby died, I had an incident, said the time when a mother died also. Yeah. So? [00:27:45] So the first one was devastating. Of course. It’s just terrible. I had to go on holiday the following [00:27:50] day. I couldn’t face it. Big young and she had severe preeclampsia, [00:27:55] so that must have happened 1974. So [00:28:00] I was about maybe 26 really young and it affected me. [00:28:05] But you had the support. The family also consoled you. You did every, uh every. You [00:28:10] think you could? You know, I had to do one day a hysterectomy in the world because she was bleeding to, [00:28:15] you know, she had she had conditions, which she didn’t. We did not recognise the placenta [00:28:20] accreta. She she also died. And a baby has died from [00:28:25] a very easy delivery. Very, very easy delivery. And then [00:28:30] after three days, he just died. And then, uh, when the [00:28:35] coroner did the autopsy, there was a bit of blood in the in the brain. You [00:28:40] would think it’s traumatic because, you know, because the delivery was traumatic, but the delivery [00:28:45] wasn’t traumatic. And then when I asked the the coroner’s, you know, how often [00:28:50] do you see blood in the brain in a straight in in babies in general, you know, delivered [00:28:55] it’s not uncommon. So but again, you feel guilty all the time.

Speaker4: But we [00:29:00] feel.

Speaker2: Guilty as dentists like. Well, you know, Payman works with one of the top dentists in the UK. [00:29:05] And like, I know how it feels like we’ll have like, sleepless nights over a margin. Do you know what I mean? On a tooth. Do you see [00:29:10] what I mean? Like it’s like, we’ll think about it and think about it or, you know, a shade match or something like that. But then [00:29:15] you hear this, you know what?

Speaker1: It’s normal. It will be unusual not to get upset. We get upset [00:29:20] even when we have a complaint. Where did I where did I go wrong?

Speaker4: So.

Speaker2: But was it those [00:29:25] events that you said I want to stop OBS? Or was it more the complaints side of things that made you want to stop obstetrics? [00:29:30]

Speaker4: No, no.

Speaker1: No, I loved obstetrics all the way. It was age. I was past 50 by [00:29:35] then. I knew I couldn’t carry any longer getting up during the night. You actually sleep on [00:29:40] edge, you know, half asleep, half. You’re waiting for a call, you know? And to be [00:29:45] honest, at that time, I decided that I’m going to stay with my patients in the hospital [00:29:50] if I had a private obstetrics until she’s delivered. So I looked after her because I couldn’t wait [00:29:55] to go to to bed and then wake up again and wake up. So imagine how many nights like [00:30:00] that. So I gave it up and for the insurance as well. And I decided to become only gynaecologist [00:30:05] then.

Speaker3: So, doctor, tell me about when you made the decision to leave the NHS. [00:30:10]

Speaker2: This is, this is so interesting by the way. Also I want to before he [00:30:15] talks about the decision to leave the NHS. I want to like rewind a little bit because people are very interested in my [00:30:20] childhood. I got trolled the other day on TikTok. I didn’t tell you all you, but basically someone [00:30:25] said this woman is lying about her success because her father is a multi-millionaire gynaecologist [00:30:30] who paid for everything and bought her her clinic and everything in it. [00:30:35] Can we just have it on her? Did you buy me my clinic at all?

Speaker4: Exactly. [00:30:40]

Speaker2: And no.

Speaker4: Are you a mona?

Speaker1: Iskander did everything herself. [00:30:45] Trust me. Rhona Eskander. She works three three years [00:30:50] in the NHS. Not three.

Speaker2: Years. I did eight.

Speaker4: Years.

Speaker1: Well, whatever. In the first three years in the NHS [00:30:55] she where she worked, she was earning 42,000 [00:31:00] a year. And I’m saying it really in front of everybody. [00:31:05] She came after three years said, she said dad, I managed to save £80,000 [00:31:10] because I want to buy a flat.

Speaker4: In three [00:31:15] years.

Speaker1: And trust me, in these three years I.

Speaker4: Didn’t do anything I saved.

Speaker1: I [00:31:20] did not help her rent for rent. I couldn’t help her for anything.

Speaker2: I [00:31:25] only university, that’s what I say. You paid for my education? Yes.

Speaker4: In school. [00:31:30]

Speaker2: Yes, etc. but then after university I was done right. I saved everything. [00:31:35]

Speaker4: Myself.

Speaker1: Cheers. And I’m not a multi-millionaire at all.

Speaker4: There we go.

Speaker1: I told I couldn’t [00:31:40] afford to be honest. I had one policy, always with them since she was very young, her or [00:31:45] her sister. I gave you a pocket money from day. From the two years [00:31:50] of age I think I gave them. I give them a weekly pocket money. And I said, well, it’s up to you to [00:31:55] save or to spend it or spend it. It doesn’t really matter. But they’ve learned the value of money [00:32:00] from a.

Speaker4: Young age since I was three and.

Speaker1: And then during education, [00:32:05] then they got used to that pocket money. It was a trick to also [00:32:10] bargain with education. If you don’t do your homework, there’s no pocket money this week. I’m terribly sorry. [00:32:15] So did you.

Speaker3: Work as well?

Speaker4: No, no.

Speaker2: Because for me, just.

Speaker3: Saved. You were a good saver.

Speaker2: No, I was good. [00:32:20] Say, I was a really good saver. Remember, I don’t drink. So when people were spending loads of money on drinking, I think I [00:32:25] saved a lot of money on on no alcohol because I just don’t drink. I think that also [00:32:30] the other thing is like you said, like I remember I was only 2 or 3, but I really remember it. Dad sat me down, just [00:32:35] had bath time, and he goes, I’m going to give you something called pocket money. You’re going to get one dinner [00:32:40] because we lived in Bahrain, by the way, at this.

Speaker4: Point, equivalent to £2.

Speaker2: And then um, so my [00:32:45] dad went to the Middle East. It’s quite interesting because I want him to tell you why he went to the Middle East and how his experience, [00:32:50] that’s when he met my mum. But even more interestingly, is when we came back to the UK, [00:32:55] there was huge financial struggle because I remember we went to Asda and [00:33:00] we weren’t allowed to buy, we weren’t allowed to buy normal coke, Coca Cola because I.

Speaker1: Only bought Asda. [00:33:05]

Speaker4: Cola.

Speaker2: Coke because we couldn’t afford it. So I think that’s quite interesting.

Speaker3: I think the. Decision [00:33:10] needs to be had. Yeah, that if you were a multi-millionaire. Yeah. And there are plenty [00:33:15] of people who are multimillionaires whose kid might be a dentist. Yeah. Yeah, that that still [00:33:20] doesn’t mean there’s anything less about your, you know, your your achievement [00:33:25] of what you’ve managed to do. Yeah. Whether or not there was money [00:33:30] at at the beginning or not or not, the achievement is its own achievement. [00:33:35] Yeah.

Speaker1: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker3: So so, you know, I can understand if someone said your [00:33:40] dad’s multimillionaire and that’s not true.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Not true. You want to set that record straight? Yeah. [00:33:45] But if my dad was a multi-millionaire and he helped me start enlightened. Great. [00:33:50] Yeah, yeah, the last 23 years of ups and downs and all of that, [00:33:55] you know, my own work or whatever. But the person who started out rich or [00:34:00] started out poor, shouldn’t you? It makes no difference. We all have our life struggles to get through. [00:34:05] Yeah. And, you know, even the poorest person in the UK isn’t one of the [00:34:10] richest people on the world global scale. Yeah. So, you know, it depends on how you’re [00:34:15] also.

Speaker1: Also how many millionaires children have made it. A lot of them [00:34:20] are failures as well.

Speaker4: It’s more difficult. Many many, many.

Speaker3: Many can never [00:34:25] get their own achievements recognised.

Speaker1: But trust me, I just [00:34:30] I didn’t. I only paid for education. Her mother paid her also for her private schooling.

Speaker2: Let’s go [00:34:35] a little bit into that. So why did you move to the Middle East. So you’re working in the UK? You were.

Speaker4: 30.

Speaker1: I was multitask [00:34:40] and really I knew now by then I knew I had a lot of experience. I had [00:34:45] colposcopy behind my wings, I had ultrasound experience, all advanced. I had [00:34:50] advanced keyhole surgery. And you’re talking about 1984. Not nowadays. [00:34:55] Um, and then, you know, I had some fertility experience. But [00:35:00] to be honest, by 84 I was so tired and and also the competition [00:35:05] was different. When you applied for consultant jobs, you know, there was another [00:35:10] hundred applicants with you as well to apply and you had to really be [00:35:15] shortlisted. And I was shortlisted a few times, but I couldn’t just go through the bottleneck [00:35:20] one more time and I said, I just need a break. And everybody was having fun. [00:35:25] It was a party in the Middle East. And also I went.

Speaker2: But also, can you, can you be honest that there [00:35:30] were too many women in the UK and you couldn’t settle down?

Speaker1: I couldn’t say no, not not because of too [00:35:35] many women. I couldn’t settle with the person that I wanted to be.

Speaker4: With too much.

Speaker2: Choice.

Speaker1: Maybe [00:35:40] it’s the London is distracting.

Speaker4: Distracting London.

Speaker1: London [00:35:45] is distracting and I tell you so. There are not many loving relationships. There are [00:35:50] many, many people.

Speaker4: And well, it.

Speaker1: Still is. A lot of people find it difficult [00:35:55] to find a loving relationship so you can be friendly.

Speaker4: Do you feel that a.

Speaker2: Lot of women talk to you about that in the clinic? [00:36:00] Like there’s a lot of women.

Speaker4: Who tell me.

Speaker1: Exactly that you can have sex and a lot of sex in London, [00:36:05] but you can’t have too much love. Many love.

Speaker2: Why do you think that is?

Speaker1: I think this [00:36:10] is the way people are, you know, people are just more focussed on their career now. They’re not [00:36:15] really ready to have a family until later in life. And that’s when we talk about egg [00:36:20] freezing. It’s a fact most people don’t have children in [00:36:25] my clinic by the age of 33, to be fair, maybe 35 [00:36:30] even.

Speaker2: But but my question for you is is not so much that part, but why do you think they say they struggle [00:36:35] to find a decent partner?

Speaker3: Bruno, do you agree that these days getting married for [00:36:40] a man is a lot less interesting than it was?

Speaker1: And that’s that’s [00:36:45] also that’s also a point. Yes. He’s got many choices and he doesn’t have to commit herself [00:36:50] himself. But also, I think men get worried about litigation. [00:36:55] The law stands more with women than men. It’s against men. Yeah. [00:37:00]

Speaker3: It’s maybe the worst thing.

Speaker1: That can happen. They are at a disadvantage.

Speaker2: It’s funny, my fiance said the other day, [00:37:05] it’s going to make you laugh. He was getting so stressed about the civil ceremony and I was [00:37:10] like, don’t stress. I was like, just, it’s fine. Like, we’re going to get the date when we get the date. And he goes, you don’t understand. [00:37:15] If the papers aren’t signed, I’ll have no rights to the baby. And I was like, oh, okay. I was [00:37:20] like, I would never do that to you. I would never do that to him. Like, we have such a strong relationship. But I think, [00:37:25] like men subconsciously do worry and like, of course one of my best friends. Would you would.

Speaker3: You sign [00:37:30] a what’s a prenup, a.

Speaker2: Prenup? I wouldn’t mind a prenup. You know, I was listening to [00:37:35] a really amazing podcast. I’m going to send it to you, Lex Friedman and James Sexton. Have you listened to it? No, it [00:37:40] is phenomenal. The podcast basically is, um, the biggest [00:37:45] divorce lawyer in America. And he talks about everything. He talks about everything. So [00:37:50] in this podcast he basically talks about Prenups and everything like that. He goes, everyone [00:37:55] gets so upset about prenup. Oh, do they love me because it is just an insurance [00:38:00] policy. He goes, I tell you this, even he goes, even the people that you see, all the celebrities that pretend they [00:38:05] haven’t had a prenup, he goes 90% have had a prenup. And then he goes on to say. One [00:38:10] of the most interesting things about the prenup is, is that a lot of [00:38:15] people are obsessed with putting an infidelity clause. So whether it’s either party, they [00:38:20] say the prenup will only apply if there’s no infidelity. Right? But he says if you put an infidelity [00:38:25] clause, it just makes it more interesting for the lawyers because he discourages them. Because what [00:38:30] defines infidelity? Texting someone, even if they say, oh, look, here’s the hotel [00:38:35] room. He was in the hotel with the room. How can you prove something happened? Do you see what I mean? So it becomes very difficult [00:38:40] to prove what what is actually. And you start getting into the nitty gritty. But would you.

Speaker3: Worry? So [00:38:45] if your fiance, you know, pulled out a piece of paper and said, I wouldn’t.

Speaker2: Worry, I.

Speaker3: Wouldn’t worry, you’d be.

Speaker2: Cut? I think [00:38:50] that’s because I’m not financially driven when it comes to my choice [00:38:55] of partner, like as like, and I think the same goes his way, like with me and him and again, like, but. [00:39:00]

Speaker3: I’ve had friends. I’ve had friends where I’ve said to them, I’ve recommended, hey, you know, get a prenup. And, [00:39:05] and they say.

Speaker1: Does it work?

Speaker3: I can’t even bring it up.

Speaker1: But does it work?

Speaker2: Yeah. Well, according to [00:39:10] Rolanda.

Speaker3: Does a prenup work? Yes. Well, I don’t know the law in the UK. Yeah, but. But they can’t [00:39:15] even bring it up with their with their fiance because bringing it up brings an argument, brings in an [00:39:20] argument.

Speaker2: That has a friend. I’m not going to mention her name, but the daughter called off the wedding [00:39:25] because the guy wanted a prenup, remember? You know, I’m talking about she called off the wedding. Yes, she called it [00:39:30] off.

Speaker1: He was American. She was English. And, um, she called off the wedding [00:39:35] and has to withdraw all the invitations. You have to think about which I think, you know, I [00:39:40] think you know.

Speaker3: You know what? No, no.

Speaker1: But but I think it was fair from the guy. He had a lot of wealth [00:39:45] and she didn’t have any wealth. It’s fine to to no prenup.

Speaker4: But I’ve.

Speaker2: Had. [00:39:50] Can I be completely transparent with you? Sure. My clinic is my clinic. I’ve worked so damn hard for that [00:39:55] clinic. No matter who I marry, I still want my clinic to be my clinic. What we build together thereafter [00:40:00] during the wedding.

Speaker4: Exactly.

Speaker2: Also what he has got. [00:40:05] I don’t expect to just take that for what he has worked for, for hard, for prior to me. Do you understand [00:40:10] what I’m saying? Us together is a different thing. But, you know, like immediately, as you know, in a separation, [00:40:15] they get 50% of everything, including what you had before. So I think it’s like you have these discussions [00:40:20] and as you know, it’s a bit like getting into disputes with business partners. It’s much easier to have [00:40:25] the conversations when you love each other and care about each other, like like doing a shareholders agreement, for example. The beginning. [00:40:30]

Speaker4: Set the boundaries. What you’ve done.

Speaker1: Before is yours. It’s very.

Speaker2: Nice. I mean, that’s what I believe.

Speaker1: A friend [00:40:35] of mine whom you know very well is going through a divorce at the moment. Really? Her [00:40:40] lawyers, her lawyers, they wanted they want him to declare what [00:40:45] he had inherited from his parents. So going after his parents [00:40:50] properties as well, who died?

Speaker3: Lawyers, lawyers love to get the money right. And wherever, wherever the money [00:40:55] is exactly they will go after.

Speaker1: They will just want to know. And they will. They will have a go. They will have [00:41:00] a go.

Speaker4: Yeah. So so I’m.

Speaker1: Sorry, I have to write my property to [00:41:05] the doc charity.

Speaker4: No. Okay.

Speaker2: So but okay. So dad. So [00:41:10] anyway, so you were there. But this made me laugh so much. He actually really wanted to get married at 38. And [00:41:15] he decided because.

Speaker1: 37.

Speaker4: There was no.

Speaker2: There was no. Can you believe I’m going to be 37 on Wednesday? [00:41:20]

Speaker3: Congratulations.

Speaker2: So depressed.

Speaker4: I know old.

Speaker1: Or no, if you don’t [00:41:25] say it, nobody will know. But it doesn’t really matter.

Speaker4: People still think I’m young. He just told 10,000 people. Yes.

Speaker2: Yes, [00:41:30] 10,000 people. Listen to this podcast. Anyway, listen. So the one, the other thing [00:41:35] that I wanted to say to you was, is, um, now my age thing. Yeah. So he wants he [00:41:40] said there was no Tinder. There was no, he said that he put out an advert on the Yellow Pages describing [00:41:45] a secretary that he wanted, but basically his perfect woman.

Speaker1: Well, when I didn’t [00:41:50] really find the one I really, really want, I said, but why don’t you interview [00:41:55] people? But not for marriage, but as a secretary. So I plan [00:42:00] to take up a suite in the Hilton Cairo and and, [00:42:05] you know, at that time and I was close now in Saudi Arabia, I was close to Cairo and, [00:42:10] and I planned to have a secretary with all the specification of what [00:42:15] I want. And in fact, a lot of it applies to my wife. So she has [00:42:20] to speak.

Speaker4: She manifested her, she.

Speaker1: Has to speak Arabic and as well as English, French [00:42:25] as well will be an advantage. Uh, American University of Cairo educated [00:42:30] my mum.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: Lebanon.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: And then in fact. But I [00:42:35] met my wife without the advert. And just before that I met my wife. And it was an interesting [00:42:40] point because I was going to advertise for a secretary and I was going to choose one of them then to be [00:42:45] my wife. But it didn’t happen. I didn’t have to go through that. But it was a fun. [00:42:50] That was your.

Speaker4: Version of a fun.

Speaker1: Experience to go.

Speaker4: Through it. How was how was.

Speaker2: Saudi [00:42:55] when you went? Because he was in Saudi then in the 80s.

Speaker4: Then how was it?

Speaker1: Saudi was very primitive and very [00:43:00] Islamic. You know, there were it’s all Wahhabis and they had their own rules. Yeah. And [00:43:05] but I.

Speaker4: Worked I.

Speaker1: Worked in the American. Yes. In the, in the. Arabian [00:43:10] American oil company called Aramco, and Aramco had a [00:43:15] walled village of 60,000 people from all from the States, from, [00:43:20] uh, the whole Arab world, from England, from Canada as well. So I lived [00:43:25] among a foreign international community, and the hospital was advanced so I could use [00:43:30] all the skills. We had ultrasounds, we had colposcopy, we had everything. So I was happy there. Is that.

Speaker3: Where you [00:43:35] met.

Speaker1: Rodney? That’s where I met my wife. Yeah. My wife. I saw her in the streets [00:43:40] of, uh, Hobart, which is just outside Aramco. And I said, My [00:43:45] God, this is my woman.

Speaker4: Can you imagine? She loved to.

Speaker1: Hear [00:43:50] that on broadcast. I really said it. And I just fell in love with her. Just walking the streets [00:43:55] with a modest cover. She looked incredible.

Speaker2: Bright green eyes.

Speaker1: Yeah. Three days later, [00:44:00] I met her in the hospital, and I just sat close to her so [00:44:05] she can notice me in the dining room. And then I went to. I moved on to [00:44:10] a coma to a friend who happened to. She knew as well. She also came for me as [00:44:15] well on that table because she also.

Speaker4: Uh, admired me. So it was.

Speaker1: And, [00:44:20] you know, which is great. You know, I love it when a woman. My advice to women, if you like a man, [00:44:25] go for him. You know, because men are generally men, men are generally [00:44:30] shy, and they love the woman who chooses them as well.

Speaker4: But, you know, but.

Speaker2: It’s interesting that [00:44:35] you say that because I have a friend of mine, you know, my best friend, her new boyfriend chased [00:44:40] her and he said he finds it a complete turn off when a woman [00:44:45] approaches him or when a woman, he finds it a turn off because he likes to feel alpha and macho and like [00:44:50] he’s done the choosing. But having said that, do you know. Sorry, dad, I’m going to.

Speaker3: Break a Russian.

Speaker2: No, he’s not. [00:44:55] He’s not Russian at all. Um, but he’s he’s he’s he’s pretty modern, but isn’t like, he just [00:45:00] doesn’t like that. The other thing is, my sister. You probably know this well, my [00:45:05] sister, if she likes someone, she makes it known. She will even give her phone number on a piece of paper.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah, [00:45:10] but.

Speaker2: And it’s worked out for her perfectly.

Speaker1: But it’s not. It’s not for a one night stand. That’s [00:45:15] wrong. It’s really. There has to be an attraction and a love and a relationship. [00:45:20]

Speaker4: But do you not think.

Speaker2: Men like.

Speaker3: What’s wrong with the one night stand?

Speaker4: What’s wrong?

Speaker1: Everything wrong?

Speaker2: Don’t [00:45:25] say that on a podcast.

Speaker4: No, no, no, it’s wrong, it’s wrong.

Speaker1: There’s no really. A [00:45:30] sexual relationship is fantastic within a loving relationship.

Speaker4: But some people [00:45:35] like.

Speaker1: No emotions and love. Well, it’s just an attraction. It’s just beauty. And to be honest, [00:45:40] it’s all the same. If there is no love, it’s all the same.

Speaker2: But the thing is, some people might say that [00:45:45] they enjoy one night stands because they feel empowered and that they feel that they are [00:45:50] they are in their sexual element. I don’t know, I’ve never had it’s not me. So I don’t know.

Speaker1: It’s not [00:45:55] me. I mean, as I said, I’m.

Speaker4: Just one time.

Speaker2: It’s personal choice, I.

Speaker4: Think, which I.

Speaker1: Don’t, I well, from my experience [00:46:00] I did never enjoyed it really hard. I’m sorry for all the girls that I had to be with.

Speaker4: But [00:46:05] really, well, you know.

Speaker1: There was some attraction, of course, but I had [00:46:10] to really develop some attraction and understanding and some love, some love which.

Speaker4: You [00:46:15] make the same.

Speaker2: As in like I feel that to really like someone it has to always be emotional connection. [00:46:20] Yes. Emotional connection.

Speaker4: But that’s that’s the case for women.

Speaker1: Women always need and I’m. [00:46:25]

Speaker2: Not sure anymore. What do you think?

Speaker3: No, I think I think that traditionally that was the case. I think there [00:46:30] is something about women that leads them that way. Different. Yeah. Yeah. Women and men are different. Yes. [00:46:35] But I know plenty of men who say exactly what you said. Yes, yes. And I know plenty of women who [00:46:40] are up for lots of one. Yes. Correct. You know.

Speaker1: Because they don’t want to be committed. And it’s a good thing.

Speaker3: I feel like it’s [00:46:45] a good thing.

Speaker1: But I was a romantic guy when I was young in the NHS, and I tried to fall in [00:46:50] love many times. The girls didn’t like it. Oh, you’re too serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I, you know, I.

Speaker4: Gave [00:46:55] up eventually.

Speaker2: I think nowadays also women do complain that they want to have a really loving, emotionally [00:47:00] available person, but then they always classically go for like the guy that isn’t that, [00:47:05] you know, and then they start complaining, you know, there is something to blame. And I definitely went through a period where I [00:47:10] realised I was the common denominator in my bad situations, because I was choosing the wrong [00:47:15] man subconsciously. I remember like, um, choosing the wrong men subconsciously. And actually [00:47:20] I looked at it and I was like, you know what? Like, my parents are like the beacon of like, healthiness. [00:47:25] And my partner now who was emotionally unavailable. But there was a change there [00:47:30] definitely like reflects more of, you know what I have grown up with, doctor.

Speaker3: You’ve been married [00:47:35] how many years?

Speaker1: Oh, 1985, 1985. [00:47:40] So coming close to 40 years, I think 38.

Speaker4: Years. [00:47:45] You still love her.

Speaker2: As much as you did.

Speaker4: Back then? Just as.

Speaker3: Much. But what’s the secret?

Speaker1: And, you know, my wife also just [00:47:50] loves. What’s the.

Speaker3: Secret? Because. Because, you know, 40 years is a long time. And so [00:47:55] in constant forgiveness.

Speaker1: Do we do we pick her? We pick her all [00:48:00] the time. Somebody said, and I said all the time. But you know what? Because there is [00:48:05] love. We forget really and forgive within. Now I [00:48:10] am 24, 48 hours, but I used to be 14, 15 days of sulking [00:48:15] as well in the past. But my wife five minutes. Yeah, five minutes. [00:48:20] And I can feel and you know, what do.

Speaker2: You think as well? Because mum used to tell me as well, like in the early stages of your relationship, [00:48:25] that one thing that was difficult for her, which you might not know about, is there were women constantly [00:48:30] trying also to deter your attention away from her. And there was like, you know what [00:48:35] women get like, I know, I know. And mum mum found that difficult. But what do you think that also within that relationship [00:48:40] because a lot of people like a mistake that happens is they get so comfortable in relationships [00:48:45] that they do start to cheat on their partner or they lose interest because, as you know, relationships [00:48:50] go for different stages from the two year to the five year to the ten year. So why? What do you think? Also [00:48:55] held you together? My mum’s a bit.

Speaker4: Of a I.

Speaker1: Mean, I have a theory which not many women are [00:49:00] going are going to agree about. Really, I have a feeling that men [00:49:05] are hypersexual in general. They just really more [00:49:10] sexually easily aroused and attracted, and [00:49:15] they’re very vulnerable and weak because of that. Until they get into their 40s [00:49:20] and 50s and sometimes even carry on, they are just vulnerable women, [00:49:25] you know, they’re emotionally more emotionally driven. So they’re not. But I mean, a lot of women will disagree. [00:49:30]

Speaker3: Well, on an evolutionary level, you know, a woman cannot [00:49:35] be as careless as a man, correct. Because you know, the consequences are correct. [00:49:40] A child.

Speaker4: You know, many.

Speaker1: Many men really don’t care whether you they don’t know whether they [00:49:45] can make you pregnant or the night. Very few are responsible.

Speaker2: Very few, of course, very.

Speaker4: Few.

Speaker1: Only [00:49:50] the women have to be responsible. It’s not fair.

Speaker2: Okay, so tell us your point then.

Speaker1: So my [00:49:55] point is that so men will be easily attracted to [00:50:00] women.

Speaker4: Then how did.

Speaker1: Because they are inherently like that. Women are not. They’re more emotionally [00:50:05] driven. Unless they feel that they become less attractive. [00:50:10] They become egotistic. They want the attraction, they want to know they’re desired as well. [00:50:15] And that happens to women after a long, boring message and where everything became just really [00:50:20] a routine. I think the secret. Of a loving relationship is [00:50:25] to forgive the men more, and [00:50:30] the man has to forgive the woman. But it’s always very difficult. And men usually don’t forgive very [00:50:35] much, but they have to forgive. So it’s a matter of forgiveness, even if there was infidelity. [00:50:40]

Speaker2: So this is so interesting.

Speaker4: Interesting, because.

Speaker3: You and Shivani spoke about this.

Speaker4: Because.

Speaker1: Because the long, loving relationship [00:50:45] should concre that.

Speaker2: So one thing that I would say to you is, is again, in the James Sexton [00:50:50] podcast, which you should definitely listen to, the first question that’s asked by clients when [00:50:55] they find out about infidelity, the men ask, did you have sex with [00:51:00] him? Yes. The women asks, do you love her? So that’s the first question. Correct. So when a woman finds [00:51:05] out her husband cheated is do you love her? When a men finds out his wife has cheated, he says, did you have sex with him? And it’s quite [00:51:10] interesting to see that like psychology of different. Correct. You know, when it comes to [00:51:15] that, because you can see then where the importance lies.

Speaker3: It’s such an unfair question. You’re not even married yet. But if it did [00:51:20] happen to you.

Speaker2: Oh, here we go.

Speaker3: Yeah. Would you have hard and fast rules or would you [00:51:25] take your dad’s advice?

Speaker2: I think that I wouldn’t have hard and fast rules and I would probably get annihilated. [00:51:30] Shivani would definitely annihilate me for this. But I think that, like hearing stories from [00:51:35] my dad also about the patients that he gets in his clinic, there’s complications, [00:51:40] right? Like my dad might diagnose, for example, a sexually transmitted disease, [00:51:45] and the partner’s like. But I don’t get it. How could I have got a disease? I’ve only been with my partner. And then there’s like these [00:51:50] difficulties, etc., and he talks about like the nuances of relationships. My honest [00:51:55] answer would be is, I don’t know until I’m in that situation and I think we pass too much judgement. [00:52:00]

Speaker3: But I think, look, you draw a hard line at infidelity. Infidelity can be psychological. [00:52:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker2: Thinking about someone.

Speaker3: Yeah. Well, listen, someone.

Speaker4: For a week, but.

Speaker1: You know. But if [00:52:10] he’s in love, that’s it. Fine. You can go with her if you are in love. But [00:52:15] if it was only a matter of sexual encounter one night stand and I was wrong, [00:52:20] quite honestly, I wouldn’t destroy my marriage for that. You know.

Speaker2: I think it really depends on the situation [00:52:25] that you’re in. And as you said, if it happens, like multiple times and. Yeah. And the difficulty is I mean, [00:52:30] I talked about Esther Perel. Have you ever listened to her? Oh, she’s brilliant. She’s again a psychologist [00:52:35] and she does a lot. She’s French. So obviously very you know, she’s very open, [00:52:40] open to infidelity. But Esther Perel talks about infidelity, and she [00:52:45] also talks about how a lot of couples try to come back from it. But she says the biggest [00:52:50] judgement, what’s interesting because she goes into different types. But what’s interesting is, is that [00:52:55] back in the day, as you know, both of your generation, your generation and your generation, you’re not as old as [00:53:00] my dad. But still people, if people got, um, cheated [00:53:05] on people would judge you for [00:53:10] leaving. That’s what they would say. But nowadays people judge [00:53:15] you for staying. And I thought that was an interesting point, because what she’s saying is that, like people.

Speaker4: You mean if [00:53:20] you.

Speaker1: Forgive and stay in the relationship.

Speaker4: Nowadays? Yes.

Speaker3: Nowadays people blame.

Speaker2: In the past.

Speaker4: They [00:53:25] will judge.

Speaker2: Yes. But in the past they.

Speaker1: Judge you as being a nice person.

Speaker4: Or a fool. What a.

Speaker2: Stigma. And even when [00:53:30] I was growing up, having people that had divorced parents was such a stigma. Oh my God, not anymore. [00:53:35]

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker2: Not anymore. You know what I mean?

Speaker1: They’re not totally happy children as well.

Speaker2: There are no I [00:53:40] think it depends, dad, because there’s a lot of co-parenting. There’s a lot of healthy conversations, [00:53:45] you know, like the life has changed, etc..

Speaker3: Do you know anyone who has an open relationship?

Speaker2: Polyamorous [00:53:50] relationship? No. Do you get clients with polyamorous relationships?

Speaker3: It’s very it’s very much more common these days. [00:53:55]

Speaker2: Yeah. It is.

Speaker1: Polyamorous means.

Speaker2: Like say for example, it’s consensual like so say [00:54:00] say like.

Speaker1: So like husband share to husband.

Speaker4: But then couples your couples.

Speaker2: But you might go [00:54:05] to sex parties together. You might have.

Speaker3: You don’t have to. You agree that you don’t have to.

Speaker2: You agree [00:54:10] that it’s not complete monogamy, but you still come home together.

Speaker4: Of course. Of course I’ve had I’ve had.

Speaker1: One, one [00:54:15] that I know. And she said she was much happier. They’re both much happier than before, [00:54:20] you know. Interesting. Their marriage was really on a verge of a Break-Up. Now they are very close and they [00:54:25] really enjoy the company of that.

Speaker2: Because they still come home to each other and love each other, I think. I mean, [00:54:30] that’s a whole different topic, but quickly I want to get over like, so then you were in Saudi because I want [00:54:35] to go back onto that topic. You were in Saudi, then you decided to come back to the UK. For what reason?

Speaker4: Yes, [00:54:40] just.

Speaker1: To, but just I want to add one point. There are two cultures now about what we’ve just said [00:54:45] there. So I have people from the Gulf. Okay. [00:54:50] I’m because I see them more. Okay. And they have.

Speaker4: In London.

Speaker1: In London [00:54:55] and they have a loving relationship. They are intellectuals and [00:55:00] middle above middle class. And they come sometimes. I [00:55:05] mean, I hope I don’t offend obviously that come. They know their husband [00:55:10] cheats, they know and they forgive them completely. And sometimes they come for.

Speaker4: But [00:55:15] you don’t think they come for an.

Speaker1: Std screen because they want to make sure he hasn’t passed the strain. [00:55:20] Totally forgiven. Are they happy? So happy.

Speaker4: They [00:55:25] do, you know.

Speaker2: Think that’s like a cultural thing? Cultural thing. It’s a cultural.

Speaker4: Thing. So we go.

Speaker1: Back to culture. Yes, yes. But here [00:55:30] it would not be acceptable. They cut off the relationship. But to me ask [00:55:35] me, I have the two in front of me who’s happy, who’s more happy? The Saudi who did [00:55:40] not break a relationship and she accepts it as men are men doctors.

Speaker4: You don’t know if she’s. [00:55:45]

Speaker2: Very happy, actually.

Speaker4: Happy.

Speaker1: I know they are very happy because they’ve been a long time with me. I know. [00:55:50]

Speaker4: Okay, fine now.

Speaker1: So let’s now to Saudi. What made me come back?

Speaker2: Yeah. So you wanted us to grow [00:55:55] up in a more democratic society as two girls?

Speaker1: Yes, yes. I mean, this is a very important [00:56:00] point and a message to everybody who is outside their homeland. It doesn’t have to be England. But [00:56:05] I’m going to say home is home. Home is where you grow. Home is [00:56:10] where you can make your wealth and your future. So if you decide to stay longer [00:56:15] as an expatriate, and I’ve seen a lot of examples like that, you have to find out [00:56:20] where you’re going to educate your children. And most of the time, your children are going [00:56:25] to leave you and go into a private boarding school in, in England [00:56:30] or in America. And, and if you decide to educate [00:56:35] them, for example, in Dubai, sooner or later you or them have to leave. And if [00:56:40] you decide to stay, well, it’s not easy. Dubai is not their homeland. They don’t have a [00:56:45] Dubai or Emirati passport. I actually mainly left even [00:56:50] that though that I had a license to practice in Dubai. I left because of the children’s [00:56:55] future. I only really this is and this was the most important and most successful [00:57:00] decision I made from my life. Because they remain to be British, [00:57:05] I wanted them to adapt to the British culture and I wanted them [00:57:10] to make their future here, and I’m happy about that decision.

Speaker2: So when we came to London, [00:57:15] I remember us struggling a lot financially. I just remember that we couldn’t. Yes, as I said, afford [00:57:20] normal coke. We would go to Asda. I wasn’t allowed to buy like anything expensive [00:57:25] etc. and remember mum crying all the time and I remember being dragged around train stations [00:57:30] and like having to see my dad.

Speaker4: And now this is.

Speaker1: This is despite full employment, [00:57:35] the.

Speaker4: Nhs.

Speaker2: Why did we have such little money?

Speaker1: It’s just not enough. It’s not little money. [00:57:40] The salary isn’t enough. We are doctors are not well paid, I have to say. [00:57:45] And.

Speaker4: But this was worse back then.

Speaker1: Well, even now, I think, to be honest, [00:57:50] you know, you know, people do struggle. They have a regular job, regular salary, but they work very hard and [00:57:55] it’s never been enough.

Speaker2: And also my mum wasn’t working at the time. So what happened was, well.

Speaker1: Even [00:58:00] when she worked, she had to pay all her salary and even more in [00:58:05] for your private schooling.

Speaker2: So basically what happened was, is that my dad got offered by his friend a house [00:58:10] in Swiss Cottage and my dad said, okay, fine, we’ll go and like move in there. Mum couldn’t work [00:58:15] at the time because her degree wasn’t valid in the UK. She went to King’s College to see if she could like, revoke her degree. [00:58:20] And she was like, this is a joke. Like as in like the tray because she went, she’s a Berkeley graduate, [00:58:25] my mum. So my dad was like slogging it out to California. Yeah. My mum. Yeah. She has. [00:58:30]

Speaker1: A master’s degree from Berkeley in.

Speaker4: Nutrition. Yeah.

Speaker2: So then basically my dad ended up like working [00:58:35] really hard. Then we went to go visit the state schools and never forget around like Swiss cottage in that area. [00:58:40] Horrendous. Remember. And they were literally like people like like knifepoint. Like in the playground. [00:58:45] Well awful.

Speaker4: Yeah actually no no.

Speaker1: No, it’s not fair. We don’t know really. But you know, I [00:58:50] just said, listen, we can’t afford a private school.

Speaker2: Yeah. But we went and like, my [00:58:55] mum took one look and was like, this is not I’m not sending the kids here. It was really rough back then. It’s not like [00:59:00] it is now.

Speaker1: Rona, when I spoke to the administrator, she said, are you joking? You [00:59:05] want them to come this year? There’s a waiting list of about 2 to 3 years. You have to put your name down. [00:59:10] Yeah. And I said what I thought, you know, but, you know, inner London school is [00:59:15] inner London like any, like, inner New York like any other place. So that’s why people go and live.

Speaker3: We came [00:59:20] mid-year because of the revolution. Yeah. Iran. Yeah. No one would take us except.

Speaker1: Yes, [00:59:25] yes.

Speaker4: Catholic, but it’s still the same.

Speaker2: The Catholic school took us.

Speaker4: Yeah. They don’t listen. I mean, at.

Speaker1: The end, you know, Netanyahu [00:59:30] did go to Camden School for girls.

Speaker4: But, you know, so.

Speaker2: This is the interesting thing. So then what [00:59:35] happened was my mum was like, right, I can’t do this. So she got a job in retail. Was the Marie Claire at the time, her [00:59:40] first job.

Speaker4: A number of loads.

Speaker2: Of sales and.

Speaker4: Became a manager.

Speaker2: Every single bit of money [00:59:45] she got, she took, she put us to go to private school. The really. Thing was [00:59:50] though, is that like, this is so typical, they couldn’t afford to buy the uniform. You know how expensive private school uniform is, right? [00:59:55] So we had to buy it.

Speaker4: From the so expensive, so.

Speaker2: Expensive. We had to buy it from the charity [01:00:00] of the school basically. And then I got bullied from like the school kids [01:00:05] for having.

Speaker4: I don’t know.

Speaker2: Because they had like little holes in them and.

Speaker4: Stuff like that. So sorry [01:00:10] daddy. Don’t be.

Speaker2: Silly. But the point is that drove me because I so wanted [01:00:15] the kids and the parents of those kids to accept me, to see what I mean. So I was like, I’m going to make sure [01:00:20] that I work really hard and we’re not going to get to where, like, we can work really hard. But also my dad, [01:00:25] as I said, he wasn’t home much because he was doing all these shifts.

Speaker1: I was in tears all the time. You don’t know that [01:00:30] I was depressed and I was in tears. I just couldn’t believe it. Is that what I really aspire [01:00:35] to be? Honestly, a doctor with a membership and all this training I did [01:00:40] and I, you know, I just can’t. I haven’t got enough money. I mean, never mind holidays. [01:00:45] We had we had we had three stars and four stars. Holiday eventually you know, but [01:00:50] even the food I had to memorise how much everything on the shelf [01:00:55] at Asda, not even Waitrose, was a dream. You know, I couldn’t go to Waitrose, you know. [01:01:00] Anyway, so, you know, I had to. We struggled, but it was worth it [01:01:05] because it’s your home country. And I must admit, you know, I love this country. I think it gave me a lot [01:01:10] of strings. You know, the people are wonderful here.

Speaker2: But Payman obviously similarly. I mean, he came to the [01:01:15] UK a lot younger, but he came from where were you born? Revolution.

Speaker4: Iran. During the revolution.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:01:20] Yeah. So you agree with me? This is a very welcoming country with a big heart.

Speaker3: Yeah, [01:01:25] yeah, I think I think the compared to a lot of Europe for instance. Yes. [01:01:30] People here are much more open, although, you know, these days.

Speaker4: There was but.

Speaker1: However [01:01:35] there was racism, there’s no doubt about it. You know, there was racism at the time. But nowadays [01:01:40] really, I think the younger generation are I mean, the whole country has made a U-turn better than many other [01:01:45] countries, you know, and my advice as well, they expect you to develop your own economy [01:01:50] as a person. In other words, you can’t just go to a British institution and get a top [01:01:55] job because, you know, the local also has worked very hard to reach that job. So I’ve learned that [01:02:00] at a later stage, as long as you look for yourself and become an entrepreneur and [01:02:05] add to the country, you’re fine. But if you want to find a job in a top position and you were [01:02:10] born abroad, it’s not fair for the locals.

Speaker3: I was at, um. You agree? Yeah, [01:02:15] I was at my. I think it’s changed a lot now. So I was I was on a collective in San Francisco. Yes. [01:02:20] And the dean of the university would take all the elective people to lunch. [01:02:25] And the dean was black and gay because it was South [01:02:30] San Francisco, right? Yes. And I remember and this was 94, 95, it was, you know, not [01:02:35] that many years ago. I remember thinking, there’s no way the dean of our dental school could [01:02:40] have been black or gay. Yeah, because it was it was a simple, you know, white man, [01:02:45] the, the kind of person. And but these days things have changed. Things have changed. [01:02:50] Interesting. And for the better. In that respect, I’d say.

Speaker2: So I wanted to say [01:02:55] so now that’s that. But obviously Payman wanted to get into that question. How did you end up in private [01:03:00] practice, and do you want to tell them about the shampoo business?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: I mean, at the end of the day, I [01:03:05] couldn’t go on and on like that. And because I have already left the system, the [01:03:10] medical system and moved abroad, nobody in the NHS was going to give me [01:03:15] a permanent post in London especially. That’s where I wanted to be. Can you.

Speaker2: Imagine? It’s like [01:03:20] a ladder. It’s like a little community.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: I mean, obviously those who stayed in the system, they were more [01:03:25] worthy of a permanent job and I wouldn’t have got a job in London. So I decided I’m [01:03:30] just going to give it another six months.

Speaker4: How old were you?

Speaker1: Uh, well, no, actually before that. [01:03:35] So. So at that time, I was about maybe 48, 49 and but but [01:03:40] I said, okay, the best way to be in the NHS and the money isn’t enough is to [01:03:45] try to develop your entrepreneurial skills and find [01:03:50] other business to do at the time when you’re off. And when was I off? I was off [01:03:55] from 6 p.m. till 8 a.m. the following day, every day, and I, I [01:04:00] was off 1 in 3 weekends at the time. So I said, well, I’m going to use that to just build another [01:04:05] business, get people to work and I can get extra money. All what I wanted really was another 20 [01:04:10] £30,000 on the side just to to keep our life going. So [01:04:15] I thought I went to a lot of, uh, exhibitions in [01:04:20] Olympia, in, in Wembley to get some ideas. And I decided since [01:04:25] I am a gynaecologist, I’m going to develop a cosmetic business for women. [01:04:30] So I went to a lab, but we developed our type of shampoo and conditioners [01:04:35] and all that, and I spent about a good six months going forwards and backwards to [01:04:40] a lab in Colchester. And as I went to the the now that the product [01:04:45] is finished now we’ve decided about everything. It’s a lot of hard work I. Tell your in business, [01:04:50] girls and boys and girls is not easy in business because you are competing [01:04:55] with big, big company, which I didn’t accept. I thought I will do even better [01:05:00] than them. Don’t be a fool.

Speaker2: We’ve all been there, right?

Speaker1: Don’t be a fool. Really. You’re not going to do better than [01:05:05] people who’ve been in the business for years, like Lancome and, you know, and all that. So. [01:05:10] And I went with the chequebook in my jacket to pay [01:05:15] the first consignment of 10,000 bottles. And [01:05:20] to my good luck, you will not believe it. The factory was closed by [01:05:25] Her Majesty’s order only. Really? That weekend they started to close it and. [01:05:30] And then they came running to me. They said, oh, don’t worry, we’ll find another lab. I said, when you find it, I pay. [01:05:35] I escaped just really by the hair. [01:05:40] By what? The expression.

Speaker3: By hair.

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah, by. Just by. By. Anyway, [01:05:45] I escaped. However, I decided to give up the shampoo [01:05:50] then, and I was very lucky. And then I decided to look at other businesses. I said food, [01:05:55] and at that time, soups.

Speaker2: Do you remember that one? Was it Covent Garden soup? They [01:06:00] used to have the shops.

Speaker4: Yeah, soups.

Speaker1: Were coming up. But in fact I was really only the second [01:06:05] person in the country to think of soups as fast food. And I thought, I’m going to [01:06:10] squeeze in between McDonald’s and Kentucky Fried Chicken and [01:06:15] I’m going to make people eat healthy. Well, I didn’t realise that people don’t eat healthy. People [01:06:20] wants to feel full. That’s why I can thank you. Fried chicken and McDonald’s succeed [01:06:25] with due respect to the post institutions. And I developed the soups. And then [01:06:30] he said to me, no. And then I decided this time to take the advice [01:06:35] of a business consultant. And that is my advice to anybody who is listening before you [01:06:40] start a business and you agree. Rona.

Speaker4: Business consultant.

Speaker2: This [01:06:45] is what I said to you like Prav has been so invaluable. Like it’s so funny because Rolando, [01:06:50] my accountant, she’s like, so I don’t understand. She was like, it’s a business consultant, someone [01:06:55] that you call for, like a shoulder to cry. And I was like, well, he is my shoulders crying. I was like, but he’s also strategic. He’s [01:07:00] been through things like, do you know what I mean? I think it’s like invaluable. But I also advocate coaches [01:07:05] and all this. I had a love coach for my relationship, you know what I mean? I’ve had I [01:07:10] believe in yeah I love coach amazing. She was.

Speaker4: Brilliant.

Speaker1: You did very well with this [01:07:15] advice. So I went actually to a business consultant, not because I had the money to pay for a business [01:07:20] consultant for, for, uh, for uh, ten sessions. Actually, [01:07:25] the Labour government, the Labour government at that time offered [01:07:30] business advice for free for any project which is going to be turned over, over 100,000. [01:07:35] And of course, my soup business was going to turn over 100,000 because I [01:07:40] planned to have it all over the world. So I went to his my business plan and funnily [01:07:45] enough, also, I made the guy the business consultant, to sign a secrecy agreement. That’s how [01:07:50] much I believed in the soups. Anyway, he signed and then I gave him the idea [01:07:55] and then we kept working out the figures. The figures were terrible. After [01:08:00] the six sessions, he told me, you have 60% [01:08:05] chance that you will close after one year completely and [01:08:10] lose your capital of 100,000 initially of the equipments, the other 40%. [01:08:15] You only have 10% chance to make £60,000 a year, 10% [01:08:20] and the other 30%. My chances were to make £40,000 [01:08:25] a year at best, providing I work. I have experience at [01:08:30] a fast food restaurant like McDonald’s, me and my wife for six months, and then [01:08:35] I have to be prepared to work the first year plus of us minimum [01:08:40] 12 hours a day behind the counters for the business to take off. [01:08:45] And then he said, what about medicine? Are you have you lost [01:08:50] your license or anything? I said, not at all. I just wanted this on the side. She said, well, let’s [01:08:55] talk about medicine. And then he actually developed the whole idea that with [01:09:00] my skills I could open my own. Were you.

Speaker2: Scared to open on your.

Speaker4: Own? Very scared. Why do you think. [01:09:05]

Speaker2: Private practice scared you? Because I know that scares a lot of dentists.

Speaker1: Well, you know, listen, listen, I had commitments. [01:09:10] I had 4 or 5000 expenses coming out of of my. Or [01:09:15] actually, it wasn’t four and five star. It was about 3000 a month between mortgage, [01:09:20] you know, um, schooling, whatever expenses I had. And I said, where am I going to get this [01:09:25] regular salary? Regular salary really ties you up and you lose a lot of opportunity, [01:09:30] I have to say. So. And and obviously also a little bit of the NHS pension, it’s [01:09:35] fine. But then eventually I took up his idea. He designed [01:09:40] the logo for me. He actually gave me a strategy as well. I said I’m [01:09:45] going to give it six months and if it doesn’t work, I’m going to go back to the Middle East. Doctor with [01:09:50] within three months. Within three months, I [01:09:55] was earning more than what I was earning.

Speaker4: In private practice.

Speaker1: In private practice. Wow. [01:10:00] Three months.

Speaker2: But what how was how were you spreading the word at that time? Were you doing Google then or not there [01:10:05] yet?

Speaker4: There was no Google then.

Speaker1: There was only the Yellow Pages. And you have to wait your turn because it’s only [01:10:10] published once a year. And if you just missed it, bad luck. We used we used the [01:10:15] usual business strategies, you know, flyers into people’s homes, for example.

Speaker3: And was it fertility? [01:10:20]

Speaker4: No specific gynae? No, this was gynae.

Speaker1: It was a one stop gynaecological centre. [01:10:25] It still is because of the skills I had. You can have the ultrasound at the same time. [01:10:30] You can have blood tests almost at the same time. You know, we are we are a unique [01:10:35] clinic. Really, to be honest, you don’t have to to come back for follow ups. We give the results [01:10:40] by email. I don’t bring people back and we do the ultrasound at the same time. If [01:10:45] you need a colposcopy, you have it at the same time. So we were attractive and obviously the price [01:10:50] was less than most private hospitals. And also [01:10:55] the services were better than a lot. You have to have a best selling point. You can’t really have a [01:11:00] business successful without a better selling point. That’s what makes business more advanced. [01:11:05] And then I went to partnership because the only thing was missing is an IVF clinic. So I went [01:11:10] to partnership with my. How old are you colleague Doctor Gorgi? Yes, we opened in 2004, [01:11:15] but but we’ve been talking since 2002, so I was only about 50, [01:11:20] 52, 53.

Speaker2: But see how late dad started his private practice. [01:11:25]

Speaker1: So it’s never too late.

Speaker4: It’s never too late.

Speaker1: And I’m 77 and I don’t intend [01:11:30] to stop really completely, but obviously reduced my my sessions a little bit.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:11:35]

Speaker2: So I want to talk a little bit about obviously fertility. So now you said the [01:11:40] average age of women having children in your clinic is 33 to 35 years.

Speaker4: Old in [01:11:45] this country.

Speaker2: In this country. Now, talk to me, first of all, from a biological perspective, [01:11:50] totally like factually, scientifically, what happens [01:11:55] to women’s fertility when they hit 30? Yes. And above. [01:12:00]

Speaker1: So women, when they reach adulthood, say 13, 14, [01:12:05] they have about a quarter of a million follicle and follicle contains [01:12:10] immature eggs inside, and only one of them come out each [01:12:15] month. So, you know, you do the math yourself. So by the time you reach 20, [01:12:20] you know, you had some reductions. And and the rate of reduction is very slow [01:12:25] until about 30. And then the curve starts to become steeper. [01:12:30] So you lose more eggs as the ovaries get older. I’m not talking about [01:12:35] women getting older now because the women are much younger now at an older age. [01:12:40] So you might feel young because you’re going to the gym and you’re keeping the heart and you’re keeping everything going. But [01:12:45] the ovary hasn’t got hasn’t evolved really to accustom to that. So [01:12:50] at 30 you lose more eggs between 30 and 35, then [01:12:55] 20 to 30. And after 35 the curve even becomes more [01:13:00] steeper. So between 35 and 40. Sorry, and I told you that [01:13:05] before 30. But it doesn’t mean you can’t get pregnant, but you just lose, you know, more [01:13:10] eggs, they just die. They just become atrophied. But you still have eggs.

Speaker2: Can anyone do anything [01:13:15] to improve their egg quality and quantity later on in life? Can you do anything [01:13:20] or is it just the usual stuff like good diet, la la la?

Speaker1: No, nothing. Even diet? I cannot [01:13:25] tell you. The ovary.

Speaker4: Has it, so there’s no studies to.

Speaker1: Show its own cycles. No.

Speaker2: What about stress [01:13:30] though? Because we’ve there’s been a massive there has been studies to show [01:13:35] that a stress in general. Not like let’s talk about whatever.

Speaker4: Makes you age.

Speaker2: No. But also [01:13:40] stress has an implication on people’s ability to get pregnant. You know, some people say the moment [01:13:45] I. Stop stressing about it, I fell pregnant, do you see.

Speaker4: What I mean? Ah, but.

Speaker1: That’s. You’re talking about ovulation, [01:13:50] not ovarian ageing. Okay. Yes. Stress can affect a monthly ovulation. [01:13:55] You can have irregular periods due to stress because you’re not ovulating on a regular basis. So let’s [01:14:00] be clear. In order to to to have a regular period you have to have an egg coming [01:14:05] out, you know, in the middle of the month. So ovulation can be affected by stress but not ovarian ageing. [01:14:10] So when you reach there’s another complicating factor. So by the time you reach [01:14:15] 35 the egg quality and what I mean [01:14:20] by equality, you know, in order for the eggs to fertilise and make a human beings, you [01:14:25] know, you have 23 pairs of chromosomes. So these [01:14:30] 23 pairs have to split to become 23 single. So [01:14:35] when they unite with the man’s sperm’s also 23 singles, you make [01:14:40] 23 pairs a human being which is a mix of data. Mom. However, [01:14:45] when you when the ovarian ovary ages from 35 [01:14:50] onwards, that splitting of the chromosomes is not perfect. So [01:14:55] some chromosomes, especially 21, chromosome 18, chromosome 13, they [01:15:00] just stick, they continue to stick together. And you end up having one egg with [01:15:05] 24 chromosomes and one egg with 22 either [01:15:10] of them. When they unite with the with the partners or husband, [01:15:15] you end up with a 145 chromosome and 147 chromosome. [01:15:20] Both of them are abnormalities are abnormal children interesting.

Speaker2: Do you have statistics [01:15:25] on how many people nowadays are undergoing fertility treatment [01:15:30] within the UK? Do you know any stats like as in like how many people are having either IVF or egg [01:15:35] freezing or anything?

Speaker4: Not in my head.

Speaker1: Yes, I must say.

Speaker4: Egg.

Speaker3: Sorry, I decided enough. Egg [01:15:40] freezing is where you’re fertile. You’re going to save some eggs because you want to have kids later.

Speaker2: So let [01:15:45] me. So let me.

Speaker3: Ivf is not fertile, but you’re trying so.

Speaker2: So dad can go into this further. [01:15:50] But basically, when I was 32, he said to me, you’ve not had kids yet. You better think [01:15:55] about freezing your eggs. So he had a frank conversation. He said, because the the, um, quality [01:16:00] and quantity of your eggs is better early on than later on because a lot of women, they try to [01:16:05] freeze their eggs, as far as I know, 38, 39 and they can get like four eggs, right? Isn’t they [01:16:10] don’t get many at all, depending on each case. But the earlier you do it, from what I understand, [01:16:15] the better the outcome could be. So when I froze my eggs I found [01:16:20] it a very stressful experience. Like to be honest, Doctor George, who is my dad’s business [01:16:25] partner, he’s brilliant. He gets really high success rates. That’s why I like refer a lot of people, but [01:16:30] it’s a really emotional experience. The hormones, the hormones. I mean, [01:16:35] ask my dad. I was in tears, you know, the daily.

Speaker3: Injections.

Speaker2: Daily injections, and that was okay. But [01:16:40] for me, it was like they removed the eggs under sedation. They got 19 [01:16:45] eggs, 19 healthy eggs in one go. That was pretty good, you know.

Speaker4: Very good. Yeah.

Speaker2: And, [01:16:50] um, they’re they’re now in the bank. They are there. But you know what’s also hilarious, [01:16:55] which you again, can explain. You get charged for storage as a woman. No, but apparently [01:17:00] sperm doesn’t get charged for storage. Is that true?

Speaker1: No. If you want.

Speaker4: You know, listen. [01:17:05]

Speaker1: Storage needs a building, needs a freezer and needs people to monitor it. You have [01:17:10] to pay.

Speaker4: Yeah, so.

Speaker2: You have to pay the.

Speaker4: Storage. Of course.

Speaker3: Everything you have to pay for storage. Yes. [01:17:15]

Speaker2: Fine, fine. I’m spreading fake.

Speaker4: News.

Speaker1: Why why why store it then? If you don’t have a building.

Speaker4: Where would you store? [01:17:20]

Speaker2: And then IVF is when people have a problem conceiving a child. But [01:17:25] I think there’s loads of different problems that can happen. And again, dad can shed a light on it that people. [01:17:30] So there’s people that can get an embryo can be formed, but it doesn’t stick. So they get [01:17:35] miscarriages and there’s people that actually can’t get pregnant. So what’s your thoughts on that. [01:17:40] Like why are these numbers increasing?

Speaker1: I want to have a full stop. And then I come back.

Speaker4: Toilet. [01:17:45] Yeah sure.

Speaker1: Toilet and water as well.

Speaker4: Yeah okay okay. [01:17:50]

Speaker1: This is a normal tap.

Speaker5: No no no [01:17:55] don’t go to toilet. You [01:18:25] want something to go?

Speaker2: I’m all right. Thank you. He’s [01:18:30] so cute, isn’t he?

Speaker5: He’s sharp.

Speaker2: Can you believe he’s almost [01:18:35] 80?

Speaker5: He’s stronger than my mom.

Speaker3: Who’s 77.

Speaker2: Think [01:19:40] this is a really interesting one [01:19:45] because it’s quite it will give people quite a lot of facts as well. Because [01:19:50] so stressed, man, I got to get on with it and have a baby what, 37 now on Wednesday. [01:19:55] Yeah I know.

Speaker6: I’d like to go into. [01:20:00]

Speaker3: What would it mean to you if you didn’t? If you.

Speaker6: If you couldn’t have kids?

Speaker2: I [01:20:05] think I’ll talk to you about that openly.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker2: Were you young? 28. About when? [01:20:10] Your kids.

Speaker5: How is it going so far?

Speaker2: It’s amazing. We just had. You’re so sharp and so amazing. [01:20:15]

Speaker1: And and I speak with a better accent. The one you keep mocking [01:20:20] me about.

Speaker2: I love your Egyptian, but can I just say, um. Do you. Are [01:20:25] you enjoying it?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: I mean, I enjoy it more when I see it. That’s excellent. I love [01:20:30] it, you know, it’s a memory as well.

Speaker2: Yeah, it is really good. But the [01:20:35] thing is, like, there’s also really interesting, like doctors and stuff doing all these podcasts. And [01:20:40] there’s one I told you, the gynae geek, she’s become very big now.

Speaker4: Because because. [01:20:45]

Speaker1: Of the podcasts.

Speaker2: And all the Instagram, you know how you said you trained her?

Speaker1: What’s her [01:20:50] name?

Speaker4: How [01:20:55] much you.

Speaker1: Have to pay for that session.

Speaker2: No payment. Does it for me for free.

Speaker4: Wow. [01:21:00]

Speaker2: Because we collaborate together.

Speaker1: But but generally speaking.

Speaker4: You know, there’s only 32.

Speaker1: Hours. How much you [01:21:05] cost.

Speaker2: What? To produce it. Yeah, I don’t know. You can ask.

Speaker1: Him. Yeah, but, [01:21:10] you know, I have Jessica’s husband who does it very cheap for me. 200. But, [01:21:15] you know, I can’t do it because I’m. I’m mainly doing terminations [01:21:20] now, you know.

Speaker2: Um, we have about [01:21:25] like half an hour, by the way. So we’ve got a few things to wrap up, but I want to. Uh Payman. This is [01:21:30] I don’t know.

Speaker4: This is I want to talk.

Speaker1: About, you know, egg, uh, ovarian reserve. It’s very [01:21:35] important. And also about the importance of egg freezing. Yeah. Okay. So we [01:21:40] we still. It’s carrying on. Yeah. Okay. So I really want to make a very important [01:21:45] point okay. So we already explained that the number of egg or [01:21:50] follicles contains immature eggs decreases every [01:21:55] year. Every year. So slowly until the age of 30 a little [01:22:00] bit steeper, 30 to 35 more steep from 35 to [01:22:05] 40 and from 40 onwards even worse. So by the time you reach the menopause, [01:22:10] there are hardly any, any eggs. So we call that egg attrition. [01:22:15] So everybody assumes I will be okay at 30, [01:22:20] 30, one, 32. I’m still okay, okay until 35. It’s [01:22:25] not true. But I don’t want to scare you. I have seen ovaries which [01:22:30] hardly contains any eggs or contain eggs equivalent [01:22:35] to the age of 38, and I’ve seen it at 25 years of age.

Speaker4: Wow. [01:22:40]

Speaker1: And as a result of seeing it. And that’s not only just by ultrasound. [01:22:45] Also there’s a blood test to monitor it called anti-mullerian hormone.

Speaker4: It’s AMH, [01:22:50] AMH mine was quite low.

Speaker2: That’s what Gorgui told me.

Speaker1: Well yours was borderline. It’s 12 was [01:22:55] okay still you know but but under ten and under 60 is worse. Um, so [01:23:00] my recommendation is that before you reach such a decision to delay your [01:23:05] pregnancy, have an ultrasound at the age check at the age of 25 [01:23:10] to check your ovarian reserve. And if it’s a lot and it’s fine and it’s absolutely normal, [01:23:15] I think you can leave it then safely at perhaps until 2830 [01:23:20] before you have another. But I strongly recommend from 30 to [01:23:25] 40 every year you monitor your ovarian reserve, just like an ovarian [01:23:30] health by ultrasound where we can where we observe [01:23:35] and count the number of eggs, as well as anti-mullerian hormones. And as long as they [01:23:40] are healthy, then you’re okay to wait. But once they start going down, then you [01:23:45] can seriously think, am I going to have a baby? Am I? Am I in a position to have [01:23:50] a baby? Or shall I freeze my eggs? Now? The advantage [01:23:55] of freezing your eggs early at a younger age is because the quality is [01:24:00] much better. So having 19 eggs at the age of [01:24:05] 35. Is not the same as having 19 [01:24:10] eggs at the age of 25, for example, because some of the eggs are [01:24:15] bound to be unhealthy, poor quality, and they may not fertilise. But [01:24:20] that’s fine. But 19 is better. Not only that, if you leave it until 35, the [01:24:25] number of follicles will be less. The number of eggs retrieved really for freezing [01:24:30] will be less. The quality will be less. So you can see you can see my point. So that’s [01:24:35] my advice as far as ovarian reserve. Just to summarise, an [01:24:40] ultrasound scan at 25, just to know that you are always following the normal care and [01:24:45] then 30 and from 30 onwards once a year, unless you decide to have a baby already. [01:24:50]

Speaker2: Do you know what is interesting actually? So there is a dentist. Lovely, lovely [01:24:55] one you know as well. And his wife was so grateful to me when I spoke openly [01:25:00] about my egg freezing. People weren’t talking about it that much online. I went out and was like, guys, I’ve just done this. And everyone was like, whoa! [01:25:05] And the reason was because they tried to have a baby when she was 32. They couldn’t. [01:25:10] And when they went to the doctor, she had early onset menopause. [01:25:15] Yeah, yeah. And then they got two eggs from her and [01:25:20] luckily one implanted and they had one. They are very lucky. One child and she only has one child at [01:25:25] 32.

Speaker3: I’m very interested to learn. Okay. We had the scientific side there. [01:25:30] But from a woman, the sort of the social side of numbers. [01:25:35] Now the question of the.

Speaker1: Ball is in your court now the.

Speaker3: The question of [01:25:40] what? How would it feel if someone told you you can’t have children? Number one, um, number [01:25:45] two, the process going through the process. And you said you said you had stress [01:25:50] or hormonal issues and then from yourself, you must have had to break it to people [01:25:55] that you can’t have children a million, a million times.

Speaker1: I never say that. Well, it’s a [01:26:00] wrong statement. Sure, sure.

Speaker4: Because I was going to ask that.

Speaker2: Why is it wrong statement?

Speaker4: Wrong statement?

Speaker1: Because we know [01:26:05] of sporadic rare pregnancies which happen even two years after the menopause. [01:26:10] Really? And the Family Planning Association is the oldest.

Speaker2: Recommend Gordon Ramsay’s wife, [01:26:15] huh? Gordon Ramsay’s wife got naturally pregnant at 47.

Speaker3: What’s the oldest pregnancy you know of?

Speaker1: As [01:26:20] I’ve seen at 47 and 48? 48 and spontaneous.

Speaker2: But [01:26:25] can I ask you something, though? Um. Do women. It must be a very difficult conversation. [01:26:30] Do they get offended in the clinic? If you advise them to think about having a kid soon, do they get offended? [01:26:35]

Speaker1: I had a complaint. I had a complaint. When I mentioned to somebody [01:26:40] I noticed the low ovarian reserve and I said, everything looks normal, but the number of eggs [01:26:45] is small. I mean, I’m obliged to tell her it’s a finding which I have to write. And, [01:26:50] uh, and, you know, if if you are really in a position [01:26:55] to have pregnancy, I think you should perhaps get on with it or monitor [01:27:00] to the future. But people really hear half of the words they triggered.

Speaker4: Yeah, but so [01:27:05] be complaint.

Speaker1: And by a famous journalist as well. Her, uh, her mother in law [01:27:10] is a famous journalist, I’ll tell you off the record after that, who achieved. But it’s just [01:27:15] it was terrible for me because here I tried to convey the facts, but [01:27:20] people get upset from the facts. And not only that, they complain, they make a complaint. So I had to spend [01:27:25] time to reply and explain.

Speaker2: Yeah, I think it’s like a really difficult one because I [01:27:30] think, like you said, more and more women, they want to delay having a child because [01:27:35] they are more career focussed. Also, I think that women have hired their standards from what [01:27:40] they expect from a man as well, because they bring a lot more to the table. Now they’re like, I [01:27:45] want to date someone that’s X, Y and Z. And then that all like delays the process. Now, [01:27:50] I think ideally, if I’m completely honest with you, I would have had a child by now. Already [01:27:55] I put like an onus onto my career, but also I’ve always been like a serial [01:28:00] monogamous. Do you see what I mean? And for whatever reason in the past, the relationship hasn’t [01:28:05] worked out in that way. And I was a very late bloomer, like my dad will tell you. Like, [01:28:10] as in like I was very focussed on, like my studies always had friends and stuff.

Speaker3: So you couldn’t have children. Yeah. [01:28:15] What would that mean?

Speaker2: I think there’s loads of options now and I’ve already like discussed this with my partner. Like if [01:28:20] I couldn’t have children now, naturally I’d number one try to use my eggs. If I couldn’t use my eggs, [01:28:25] then I’d go through IVF. If I couldn’t go through IVF, I’d consider a surrogate. I would even say that. Do you see [01:28:30] what I mean? You know. So, yes, but you know.

Speaker1: But some women, and to be honest, I think you may be one of them. [01:28:35] You’re not really, really hot about having a child. You just says this.

Speaker4: Because you’re [01:28:40] a career.

Speaker1: But you’re a career woman. You’re you have already married your career [01:28:45] and you’re enjoying it. You’re having a happy life. Is it important nowadays to have a child?

Speaker2: Yes. But [01:28:50] I think more so to you.

Speaker4: Yeah. Because this individual.

Speaker5: Makes a.

Speaker3: Very good point. Yeah.

Speaker4: An individual [01:28:55] it’s not.

Speaker3: All you had.

Speaker1: Nowadays.

Speaker4: Is motherhood. Yeah, yeah. So I went and.

Speaker3: Then someone said you [01:29:00] can’t have a child. Yeah. That would your purpose in life.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: I mean I mean I had a.

Speaker4: Friend no longer.

Speaker1: The purpose [01:29:05] of life, you.

Speaker2: Know. Yeah, but. No, but. So now that I’m turning 37, I think I’m really [01:29:10] stressed about the fact that I haven’t had a child because I think that I would feel very upset. [01:29:15] This is like a personal thing I think I feel. Don’t worry, dad, you’ll be a granddad.

Speaker4: No.

Speaker2: It’s [01:29:20] like I think that. No, I would feel, I would feel I think it’s. But, you know, like two [01:29:25] of the girls, the message me saying oh, I’ve booked with Doctor Gorgui, one of them is a doctor. [01:29:30] She’s a doctor herself. And she was like messaging me. She was like, oh, I’ve got such bad depression at the moment because [01:29:35] I can’t find a partner and I’m doing all these like, night shifts.

Speaker4: And it.

Speaker2: Needn’t be tough.

Speaker4: It is. No, [01:29:40] it.

Speaker1: Needn’t be like that, to be honest. It is a life without children as well.

Speaker2: My dad always said to me [01:29:45] when I used to, because what happened to me was, is I went to university. I met someone when I was 22 years [01:29:50] old. We were together till I was 27. I thought I was going to get married to him. [01:29:55] My parents thought I was going to get married to him. And in my mind, because of the narrative which we’ve talked about, [01:30:00] I was like, oh, it’s cool. I’m not 30 yet, so I’m not off the shelf. We broke up. [01:30:05] Then I went into like, right, I have to try and find someone before I’m 30. Then I went [01:30:10] for like some of the wrong people, these alpha male narcissists. And then my dad turned around to me and he said, do you know [01:30:15] what? He goes better to be alone than with the wrong person.

Speaker5: Yeah, yeah. This look, this fear of.

Speaker3: Being left [01:30:20] on the shelf. Yeah.

Speaker5: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker3: It’s a funny one because I [01:30:25] come across some, some, you know, like just out of dental school now, out [01:30:30] looking for their husband, like people. I mean, is that how how real is that fear of being left [01:30:35] on the shelf?

Speaker2: I think it’s so real. But even like some of my closest friends, they got into depression because [01:30:40] they weren’t, like getting married or proposed to by 30 and they got into depression. But [01:30:45] I just think like 30, as I told you. However, when I said this online as well, people, men, [01:30:50] the Andrew Tate lovers were like, oh, of course no man wants a woman who’s 30. Her [01:30:55] run through rate is like massive, which is like hilarious because as we’ve just said, the [01:31:00] Gen Z girls arguably are way more like sexually empowered. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker3: Someone trying to get a [01:31:05] rise.

Speaker2: Out of you. Yeah, but I think I think like, I think it’s I think it’s very real. But I think it’s interesting, [01:31:10] dad, do a lot of people also women in your office express anxiety about [01:31:15] not finding the right partner?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker2: And having kids?

Speaker4: Not a lot.

Speaker1: But not as much as [01:31:20] it used to be. But you know, ten years ago was more common. I don’t see it often now.

Speaker4: Why [01:31:25] do you think somebody would?

Speaker3: Some someone doesn’t have a partner comes freezes their eggs.

Speaker2: No not necessarily. He’ll [01:31:30] see someone for a gynaecologist generally and then they’ll express he’s saying ten years [01:31:35] ago I’m really sad I don’t have anyone. Why do you think that’s reduced now?

Speaker1: Because a lot [01:31:40] of more women are career oriented.

Speaker2: So now they don’t care.

Speaker1: They tell me at 32 they come. [01:31:45] I just can’t have a child. Now. I’ve just really I’m just about to start to, [01:31:50] to to get a good job and, you know, be promoted company.

Speaker3: If you had a child at 30. [01:31:55]

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker4: And I’ve seen.

Speaker3: That for the last seven years would have happened do you.

Speaker2: Think? [01:32:00] I think I always think that I could balance it. I don’t know, maybe I’m being maybe you can, maybe you can. Yeah, [01:32:05] but look, look.

Speaker3: You wouldn’t be dispersed.

Speaker2: Look at some amazing people. Like within like [01:32:10] the dental and medical community. Look at Yusra, for example. Like she’s got like three kids. Do you see? I mean, and her own [01:32:15] clinic and her own. Do you see what I mean? There are women out there that do it.

Speaker3: It’s possible. I’m just saying you would not be the same [01:32:20] person at all. Yeah. Um, and okay, maybe a bit controversial. I don’t think you’d [01:32:25] be as successful as you’ve been. Really? When you’ve got a child, you’ve got a child to look after.

Speaker1: The problem in [01:32:30] this country is child care. Yeah, but. If you are. And that’s one [01:32:35] of the reasons we chose to have children in the Middle East, because you can easily have child care, child care, [01:32:40] drivers.

Speaker3: Nannies, gardeners, cooks for a.

Speaker1: Small fee.

Speaker2: So I want [01:32:45] to ask you, right. Like it was interesting because I’ve had a couple of patients in recently, about 32, 33. And [01:32:50] I say to them, any medical changes a lot now, I would say two out of five of my clients [01:32:55] are doing IVF at the moment when I check their medical history. And I said, they [01:33:00] said, it’s really weird. The doctor actually can’t find anything wrong. I menstruate, my husband, we [01:33:05] try having sex during ovulation. Um, we’ve been trying for two years. I can’t get pregnant. [01:33:10] And she goes, I’m doing my second round of IVF. So what I’m trying to say to you is something must be [01:33:15] going on beyond biological circumstances.

Speaker1: I don’t understand it yet. We call it idiopathic. [01:33:20] There are obviously reasons which are. That’s why I think.

Speaker4: Undergoing.

Speaker1: Research and immunology. [01:33:25] You know, Doctor Gorg is very hot on finding immune reasons. And there are [01:33:30] some mixed feelings in the society about immune immune problems [01:33:35] being a reason for infertility. He’s one of the very few in this country, in in London [01:33:40] who looks into these reasons. And he brings success when [01:33:45] somebody’s had ten failed IVF. Mhm. So there are some immune reasons but yet [01:33:50] it has to be proven as well in bigger studies and all that. There are some studies which shows it’s [01:33:55] yes, it improves fertility rate. There are some studies which say no it doesn’t.

Speaker3: I’m not sure [01:34:00] there’s more stress now than there was before.

Speaker4: No, no.

Speaker1: No, it’s not stress, stress.

Speaker5: Pollution.

Speaker3: Maybe, [01:34:05] you know, maybe processed foods or whatever that is, sleep or whatever. Um, [01:34:10] would you adopt.

Speaker2: So I think.

Speaker4: Excellent.

Speaker1: Excellent consideration [01:34:15] to adopt.

Speaker2: So it was interesting because I was having oh I have to bring Bianca on the podcast. Bianca is my best [01:34:20] friend. She told my dad that he was closest when we were 12 years old because she she wanted [01:34:25] to go when we were 13. She wanted to go to a rave in Kings Cross when Kings Cross was when I was 13. So you remember [01:34:30] Kings cross was like, we went to a place called Bagley’s and my dad dressed, dressed like little like. Yeah, [01:34:35] Bagley’s like dressed in these little mini skirts. And my dad was like, you are not getting out of this car. So she’s like, [01:34:40] Doctor Iskander, stop being cast. You know, classes. Imagine just because it was Kings Cross. [01:34:45]

Speaker3: Kings cross.

Speaker4: Was an.

Speaker1: Empty bed.

Speaker4: Land. Yeah.

Speaker5: A dodgy area with.

Speaker1: Drugs [01:34:50] and, you know, and we.

Speaker4: Were sex workers.

Speaker2: So anyway, Bianca is so [01:34:55] opinionated and she has made the conscious decision. She had said, I do not [01:35:00] want to have children. She made that from a young age. You know, I haven’t told you this about her. Like she just didn’t want [01:35:05] to. She wouldn’t mind me saying this. She’s an incredible psychotherapist. She was a journalist working in the Middle [01:35:10] East, has worked for loads of different places. He loves her lots, like she’s like a second daughter. But [01:35:15] interestingly, her sister had IVF with a donor [01:35:20] at 44. So she went to Greece. She got [01:35:25] a donor, chose a very handsome Dutch man. Whatever got implanted had the baby completely [01:35:30] healthy, fine. Second time round. She’s 46. [01:35:35] She couldn’t. The IVF didn’t work. So now she’s going to be adopting a child. Now, [01:35:40] I was having this conversation with Bianca and she turned around to me and she said, I think it was her partner that said, which I thought was a really interesting [01:35:45] point. He goes, human beings have such an obsession with passing on their [01:35:50] DNA and having a genetic.

Speaker4: Yes, of.

Speaker2: Course. And he goes, but it’s a weird obsession. And he gave an example [01:35:55] of his friends that tried to have a child for maybe ten years. [01:36:00] Couldn’t they got a surrogate? The surrogate had twins. [01:36:05] One of the babies had meningitis early and now is in a wheelchair. And [01:36:10] he said that their whole life has been dedicated to the child in the wheelchair. And he said, but their [01:36:15] obsession with trying to, like, fight the biology.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker2: Also was like hampered [01:36:20] them in the end. Does that make sense? But you could argue, obviously, that it’s been very fulfilling their life as [01:36:25] a result. You could argue it both ways. But the point is it’s a.

Speaker1: Very important point.

Speaker2: Yeah, it’s a very important point. But I don’t think I [01:36:30] necessarily want a child for my genetic DNA. I don’t even think about that. I [01:36:35] don’t want to lose the surname Iskander. I told you, because then after you, it’s gone. So I want to be Doctor Iskander. But [01:36:40] in terms of like for me, having a child is more about like that bond and [01:36:45] like having a human being that’s like you’re like someone you bring up [01:36:50] and someone that you look after and nourish. And yeah, I think that, you know, you could adopt. If I adopted, [01:36:55] though, I think I’d want someone that’s like a child that’s maybe really like opposite to me, as in like a completely [01:37:00] different, like culture and ethnicity. Like, I don’t know why I don’t know, I really don’t know. [01:37:05] I think I don’t know why. It’s just something that I was like, you know, like sometimes I meet children [01:37:10] that have been adopted and I don’t know, I just feel like you.

Speaker3: Insomuch as you don’t want it to be a secret [01:37:15] at all. You want it to be out.

Speaker2: Of out in the out in the open. Exactly. And people just know. But not [01:37:20] to get like not for people to give me praise or anything, but I’d want it to be.

Speaker3: I don’t want it to be a thing.

Speaker2: To be a thing [01:37:25] to hide. Correct.

Speaker3: How interesting.

Speaker2: How would you feel about adoption? Grandchildren? [01:37:30]

Speaker1: How do you know that your DNA is. Are half from me and half. Well, how do you know? [01:37:35] From me and your mom?

Speaker4: How do you mean?

Speaker2: I’ve been cheating on mum.

Speaker4: I mean, that’s how.

Speaker1: Does [01:37:40] anybody know what’s inside you? I mean, a child whom you actually [01:37:45] bring up from a young age is your child.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Does [01:37:50] anybody take a test from him and say, oh, I want to see who you are? [01:37:55] I mean, really, you don’t see. Well, I know.

Speaker3: I know several men who who say [01:38:00] they wouldn’t adopt.

Speaker1: Um, yeah. But I think, you know. But think about it. Really?

Speaker3: Yeah. No, I. [01:38:05]

Speaker1: Agree with you. Brought up a child so young and I agree with you. Adopted your environment and everything. What does [01:38:10] it matter about the DNA? I agree with.

Speaker3: You. I agree with you. But there is there’s an element of.

Speaker1: I know there.

Speaker3: Is. [01:38:15] Having kids is so hard anyway. Yes, yes. Having your own child is such a massive look. [01:38:20]

Speaker2: I think this is such a huge topic because also, for example, daddy, we had, um, someone who I’m seeing tomorrow, [01:38:25] we had an incredible man called, uh, John Lancaster on the podcast. He was born with Treacher Collins syndrome. [01:38:30] Do you know about Treacher Collins? No. So you have you’re born with certain features, [01:38:35] so you don’t have cheekbones, you don’t have ear bones, and you look very distinct. And [01:38:40] his parents didn’t know at the time because I don’t think the technology was available. So when he was born, they [01:38:45] gave him up for adoption two days later. And on the adoption paper, they wrote that the parents were horrified [01:38:50] by the child’s face. Imagine he saw that he grew up to be one of the most beautiful, kind, [01:38:55] incredible human beings in the world like us. Payman incredibly successful. He did a documentary. [01:39:00] He tried to find his parents when he reached 30 because he thought maybe they were young. They didn’t understand. He [01:39:05] tried to reconnect. They still didn’t want to have anything to do with him. However, the love that he [01:39:10] has and the bond that he has with his adopted mother is unbelievable.

Speaker4: Exactly.

Speaker2: And he considers [01:39:15] it to be his mother. Yeah. And I think.

Speaker1: Why did he have to worry about his, uh.

Speaker2: And [01:39:20] I think he’s. But he’s okay with it now.

Speaker4: I know he.

Speaker2: Is okay with it now, but I think, like the [01:39:25] point is, is that we all it is that love and bond. [01:39:30] But then on the other side of the spectrum, I have certain friends that have now [01:39:35] because we’re older, they meet people and they get into relationships. And the guy already has kids. [01:39:40] Yeah. Two kids, three kids. Yeah. It’s tough. Would you do tough? I’m [01:39:45] not sure. It really depends. And I always say, like, complicated. It’s complicated because [01:39:50] certain friends of mine, like, I’ve gone from living my best single life. I love this human. But [01:39:55] we have to now pick up the kids. We can’t go on holiday. It’s a lot to take on someone else’s. [01:40:00]

Speaker4: It is a lot. It is a lot. Yeah.

Speaker2: But then, is there a difference between taking on someone’s child, [01:40:05] as you said, where you’re being a step parent rather than when you’re a doctor? Do you see what I mean?

Speaker4: There [01:40:10] is there is a difference. There is a difference.

Speaker2: You see what I mean? Because you could argue.

Speaker4: That’s a massive.

Speaker2: Difference, because you could [01:40:15] argue being a step parent wasn’t necessarily choice, whereas an adoption is complete choice. [01:40:20] Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. We’re running out of time.

Speaker4: Just before we leave that point. [01:40:25]

Speaker1: Some people can accept an abnormal child and some people cannot. [01:40:30] It’s fine. I think both of them are correct. And to give it to a foster parents [01:40:35] who actually are happy to have a down syndrome baby is better than growing with two parents [01:40:40] who cannot physically look after a down syndrome. What do you think? They are both [01:40:45] just different. Kind of.

Speaker3: It’s an important question because now you can screen for down syndrome and you can you [01:40:50] can abort the kid, right? Yeah. And but then you also see.

Speaker2: Some beautiful down syndrome children. Yes [01:40:55] yes yes yes yes.

Speaker1: But some people cannot accept it.

Speaker3: It’s fine. I’ve had the situation where someone asking [01:41:00] me for advice. What should I do? Yeah, yeah. And and we have in Iran [01:41:05] I know of two down syndrome, uh, kids like in our, in our circle, [01:41:10] in our, in my direct community. And you’re right in that they’re [01:41:15] loving and so on. But the one thing that I was trying to impress on this person was that, [01:41:20] you know, it’s a once you’re gone, you have to worry about this kid. Yeah. So [01:41:25] understand that you could you can give your whole life to this kid. But but then once you’re finished, [01:41:30] once you’re gone, you there’s that worry of who looks after the kid now, which [01:41:35] a lot of people have with any child with a.

Speaker1: In Iran it’s a problem. But here the institutions [01:41:40] and the country looks after them very well still, and they are integrated into [01:41:45] society now. But you’re right, they are at a disadvantage. But it doesn’t mean I mean she.

Speaker3: Decided to abort [01:41:50] and, and, uh, you know, understandably difficult decision. It’s a difficult.

Speaker4: Decision. And [01:41:55] such a difficult decision. It is a difficult decision.

Speaker2: Um, I want to ask something else on the men, because I feel like this is not [01:42:00] talked about. A couple of my friends also had IVF, and it was turned out it was actually the man’s sperm. How common is it [01:42:05] for it to also be the man’s sperm? So she couldn’t get pregnant because there was something. The man was.

Speaker3: Infertile.

Speaker2: Yeah. So [01:42:10] it’s he’s not infertile, but there was nothing wrong with the motility or something like that.

Speaker1: I mean, it says it’s [01:42:15] a manufacture. The factory in the testes, which doesn’t function very well, doesn’t bring them. [01:42:20]

Speaker4: Are we seeing.

Speaker2: That it is also something that is being talked about. So men can also experience problems? [01:42:25]

Speaker4: Of course. Yes.

Speaker1: 15% of fertility problems are because of the men.

Speaker4: We know that. [01:42:30]

Speaker1: So it’s 1 in 6. It’s fine. And men in this country accepts it very well, [01:42:35] do they?

Speaker2: So do you feel so? I mean, as a man. And both of you can tell me [01:42:40] if you were told or that you had problems, your sperm as well.

Speaker1: Wouldn’t [01:42:45] have bothered me, and I would have been quite happy to have a sperm donor.

Speaker2: So is that the only [01:42:50] option? If you have sperm problems, or can you then or do then they do IVF.

Speaker1: It depends on the problem. [01:42:55] So some of them have problem in the whole formation. There is not one normal sperm. [01:43:00] The percentage of abnormal sperms in an ejaculate. [01:43:05] Just guess. Tell me what is? How many normal sperms in a normal ejaculate percentage? [01:43:10]

Speaker3: Abnormal.

Speaker1: Abnormal or abnormal? Normal. Let’s say normal. [01:43:15] How many do you expect to be normal?

Speaker3: 80%.

Speaker1: And you just [01:43:20] give a give a guess.

Speaker2: I’m just going to go with you 70.

Speaker1: Only 4% [01:43:25] are normal.

Speaker3: Oh. In a normal ejaculate.

Speaker1: In a normal ejaculate. Is that right? That’s the count. [01:43:30] 4 to 5%. Wow. 95% lack a head. [01:43:35] Lack a tail. No, absolutely. They can’t swim. Absolutely. That’s why they come out [01:43:40] in millions. And those ones don’t reach the egg because they can’t swim. So. [01:43:45] But 4% they manage. They are you know, the winner. You start the race for the [01:43:50] best sperm. From then from that time of ejaculation the best one will reach the egg. [01:43:55]

Speaker2: How would you feel if you were told that something was wrong with your sperm, and that was affecting [01:44:00] your ability to have a child? Yeah. How would you have reacted?

Speaker5: Uh, I.

Speaker3: Think at the time I’d be okay with [01:44:05] it, really. Not now, having had kids and so on. Now, in retrospect, it would would [01:44:10] be something more difficult. But I think at the time I would have either thought of [01:44:15] something a donor or, or I was actually, I’m actually up for people who say, [01:44:20] I don’t want children.

Speaker2: Well, Bianca’s one of them, I told you.

Speaker4: But listen.

Speaker1: I would have been very upset [01:44:25] if I didn’t have you. Yeah, imagine.

Speaker4: Imagine. But listen. [01:44:30] Imagine.

Speaker2: But I think, like, my dad’s incredible because he’s always been very open. [01:44:35] Um, my dad also had prostate cancer when he was, um. How old were you, daddy, when you had that [01:44:40] happened? Worst time of my life. It’s like I blocked.

Speaker4: It, you know, it’s.

Speaker1: In the early 60s, actually.

Speaker4: But it’s actually [01:44:45] 64, 65.

Speaker2: Um, it was, um, the prostate cancer. [01:44:50]

Speaker1: He early. It was early. It was precancerous, really.

Speaker4: Daddy was.

Speaker2: Type. It was stage two, [01:44:55] I remember. So this is how they get over it. You know, my mom was the same. Um, but [01:45:00] he said a lot of men are in denial about prostate cancer. It’s actually as [01:45:05] common I read somewhere as diabetes for men. It’s very, very common cancer. Yeah. [01:45:10] And a lot of men are in denial because the prostate is so, like, linked to, you know, [01:45:15] like manly hood or whatever. Virility. Yeah.

Speaker3: A lot of men don’t visit the doctor. [01:45:20] Yeah.

Speaker2: They don’t, and they ignore it.

Speaker1: Terrible about their health. We are just we don’t check as women. [01:45:25] And that’s why I decided to become a gynaecologist.

Speaker2: And, um. Yeah, [01:45:30] my dad actually, like, was very, like, open as in, like it didn’t ruin his life. He was like, this is what’s [01:45:35] happened to me. He had the surgery and you know, you got on with it. You got on with [01:45:40] it because you you just felt. And a lot of men won’t have the surgery, by the way, for their prostate. Because obviously, when this was going [01:45:45] on, a lot of men refused to have it.

Speaker1: Because, yes, I know because of the complications. Yeah.

Speaker2: You know, and. [01:45:50]

Speaker3: Doctor, do you know in if you’re looking at the psychology of, of fertility. [01:45:55]

Speaker1: Psychology.

Speaker3: Psychology.

Speaker5: Psychology.

Speaker3: That we have in cosmetic [01:46:00] dentistry, we’ve got there’s a, there’s a type of patient that’s like a body dysmorphic system. Yeah. [01:46:05] That that is looking for the cosmetic dentistry. But the.

Speaker5: Cosmetic a lot.

Speaker1: Of women will consider [01:46:10] it failure. Yeah. That they can’t have a child.

Speaker3: Yeah. Really.

Speaker1: So you have to be so sympathetic. [01:46:15] Empathetic, rather and supportive. Really? Yeah. And also never [01:46:20] lose hope. Never use the word that you. And it’s really, truly you can’t lose hope. Some [01:46:25] people even go and have IVF one, two, three cycles. It doesn’t succeed. [01:46:30] A year later they become pregnant.

Speaker4: Naturally.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. So really never give up hope at any, [01:46:35] any time.

Speaker3: What about what about the body dysmorphic syndrome person will [01:46:40] will will be blaming their, in this case their teeth for their happiness. [01:46:45] And whatever you do to their teeth, they’re not going to be happy. Yeah. Is there an equivalent [01:46:50] in fertility. Is that like someone who’s given the name to their pain, the fact they can’t have children and and is going [01:46:55] after it in as bad in a sort of crazy.

Speaker5: Way, they.

Speaker1: Get disappointed, that’s [01:47:00] all. And then nowadays they think of options of egg donation. So egg donation [01:47:05] is available now and a lot of people accept it. Just like sperm donation as well. Do a [01:47:10] lot in this country, obviously different cultures. You know, if you go for example, to the [01:47:15] to my Egyptian world or to the Gulf world, they would they would be very [01:47:20] upset. You’d be the man would be insulted in his masculinity and the woman in her femininity because that’s [01:47:25] their role. But as they become educated now, and I think they become.

Speaker4: Less one of. [01:47:30]

Speaker2: My beauticians who’s Iranian, who I’d been seeing for like 12 years, she sadly [01:47:35] could never get pregnant, and her husband became very abusive. Um, and [01:47:40] then she he ended up divorcing her because she never had children. But then later on, when tests were done, it turned out that [01:47:45] she doesn’t have a womb.

Speaker3: Yeah, doesn’t have a womb.

Speaker2: It’s never a womb in Iranian [01:47:50] culture. She was totally shamed for not being able to have children. But she was born. She was one of. Where she’s actually born.

Speaker4: Without [01:47:55] a womb. It’s not fair. She never had.

Speaker2: A period in her life. Yeah, right. We could go on for hours. We need to, [01:48:00] like, um, have you back on. I want to end the podcast because you’re always like my words [01:48:05] of wisdom. What’s one piece of advice that you would give to someone? Or what’s [01:48:10] the one piece of advice you could give your younger self, knowing what you know now?

Speaker1: My [01:48:15] younger self, myself.

Speaker2: So imagine you see now, Doctor Alex Iskandar [01:48:20] when he’s 20 years old, what would you tell him knowing what you know now about.

Speaker1: Yes, yes, [01:48:25] I think and I’ve told you that several times, stay focussed [01:48:30] as an early age. There’s nothing called. Oh, I’m just going to study this and then I’m going to find [01:48:35] out what I’m going to do. Focus. Decide what you want to do in life and work hard to [01:48:40] achieve your goal. And you must have a goal. If you don’t have a goal, then really [01:48:45] you could. You could waste a lot of years. So you must have a goal. You may be disappointed [01:48:50] you don’t reach your goal, but that will take you to other goals. You could reach as well on the [01:48:55] side, but you must have a goal and ambition in life. No ambitions means you [01:49:00] just become static and you leave it up to the world and to the circumstances [01:49:05] of the world. That’s my number one advice. Goal number two, you have to be [01:49:10] flexible in life at any stage. Had I not been flexible, I would [01:49:15] never have been successful. So my practice moved from one section of the things [01:49:20] I know to another section to the third section. I have modified it many times, pivoted [01:49:25] and same same with same in life in general. You just have to adapt.

Speaker1: So [01:49:30] if you can’t afford a certain a certain type of luxury, you just [01:49:35] have to downsize and then move upwards when you know, I’m sure you agree with that. If [01:49:40] you’re not flexible, you suffer as well. And I know people who had to even they [01:49:45] lost their house and they lived in government. I don’t want to say council, [01:49:50] but they lived in government houses. And then they made it again and they bought another property that [01:49:55] is life. As long as you keep going and you have and look after your health, I think. And I love [01:50:00] the young generation nowadays. They are so healthy all over the world. They go to [01:50:05] the gym. My generation, it was smoke and drinks [01:50:10] and style because we were marketed heavily by Hollywood. Yeah, so I could never [01:50:15] understand. They had a glass of whisky all the time. That’s why I drank whisky to keep in style. [01:50:20] Similarly with Marlboro and cans and a see through surgery. Do you remember nowadays [01:50:25] it’s actually a stigma and bravo for the government and the culture that [01:50:30] it has changed our perception of all these bad things. They are amazing. The new generation. [01:50:35]

Speaker5: On that.

Speaker3: Subject, I know, I know loads of 18 to 25 [01:50:40] year olds who don’t drink. Yeah, it’s a massive thing.

Speaker4: I know a lot of them.

Speaker3: And we went we went with with [01:50:45] one of them. Yeah, this guy was older but but he asked at the pub it was a pub. Normal pub said [01:50:50] what alcohol free lagers do you have. And they had six. Yeah. Not just one.

Speaker5: Six, [01:50:55] six.

Speaker3: Different types of alcohol free beer. Amazing.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Amazing. It’s become a thing. Health [01:51:00] is very important.

Speaker4: Yeah. I mean.

Speaker2: My dad can vouch for me. I’ve not been drinking.

Speaker4: Ever.

Speaker1: Ever. But [01:51:05] only because you’re lucky. You never liked it. Really? I mean, I tried to introduce [01:51:10] you in order. In order to become normal in a society, but, you know, [01:51:15] you are normal without drinks as well, you know?

Speaker2: Okay. Thank you so much, daddy.

Speaker4: It’s been a pleasure. It’s been [01:51:20] a real honour.

Speaker3: Thank you so much.

Speaker4: Thank you, thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. Thank you.

 

Speaker1: I pick 1 or 2 the best ones and I train them [00:00:05] personally. I go to their practice and they come to me, so I add them as my faculty member [00:00:10] in Dasha. So it’s just not me. So I want [00:00:15] others to be there. So so far we have three faculty members since I started [00:00:20] the course, so I train them to the level I feel they’re comfortable so [00:00:25] they can go and do things for others teach, teach.

Speaker2: Mentor, [00:00:30] that sort of thing. Yes.

Speaker1: Yes, that’s the way we do in our [00:00:35] shop because I don’t want to be just me, me, me, me. It’s not that we want [00:00:40] to have a group of clinicians who can go around the country and expand their skills [00:00:45] and teach them.

Speaker3: This [00:00:50] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:55] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:00] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:01:05] Prav Solanki.

Speaker2: It gives me great pleasure to introduce [00:01:10] Doctor Balaji to the Dental Leaders podcast. Um, believe [00:01:15] it or not, Doctor Balaji has sort of popped up in my feed several times [00:01:20] as a basically in my mind, an implant educator even. I [00:01:25] think a few months ago we were both running courses in the same venue, [00:01:30] but we didn’t cross paths. Um, we were at, um, I think it was at the Heathrow, [00:01:35] um, skyline. Yeah. The Sheraton Skyline [00:01:40] Hotel. Right. I think I was speaking there on it might have been the old Bob day [00:01:45] with Jaz Gulati, and I think you were running a course at the time, but but we didn’t get to cross [00:01:50] paths. So I think we’ve crossed paths numerous times on social media.

Speaker1: Exactly.

Speaker2: Yeah. [00:01:55] I’ve had numerous people pointing me in your direction. Get him on the podcast. [00:02:00] He’s got a great story. Yeah. Um, so I want to I want to hear what this story is all [00:02:05] about. Doctor Balaji, um, I know you as, um, uh, an educator, [00:02:10] so founder of, um. I believe it’s the Asha Academy. The academy of soft and hard [00:02:15] tissue augmentation, which I’m sure will go into a little bit later. And you’re also a practice owner, [00:02:20] is that right?

Speaker1: That’s right. Bob.

Speaker2: So, Balaji, the way I like to sort [00:02:25] of go into these podcasts is, is to really start with your backstory, [00:02:30] where you grew up, what your childhood was like. Um, so just take [00:02:35] me, take me through your backstory and your earliest sort of childhood memories.

Speaker1: Thank [00:02:40] you. Bob. First of all, I’d like to start with thanking you for my the invitation. It’s a great opportunity [00:02:45] for me to share my story. And, you know, colleagues like, uh, like [00:02:50] my colleague, like you. Uh, yeah. My story started. I was born in a very, [00:02:55] very small village in South India where [00:03:00] this particular the village when my brother and myself, my brother is older than me, three [00:03:05] years older than me. So when my parents had my brother, there was [00:03:10] there were no decent school in that village. So my [00:03:15] parents and few other parents joined together and they started a school [00:03:20] for their own kids, hiring a teacher, local teachers and stuff. So that’s how [00:03:25] I started. And then I went followed him in to the similar same school, primary school. [00:03:30] And it was the only English medium school in the whole, uh, area. So [00:03:35] and that school grew up into a very popular school, and that’s different story. So [00:03:40] my education started like that. Then I went to a secondary school, [00:03:45] which is like around 20 miles away from the village where I was born. So [00:03:50] we had to travel by bicycle. That’s the mode of transport. We had [00:03:55] to reach there every day by sort of thing. So when I [00:04:00] finished my secondary school and, um, my brother was already in medical school in, [00:04:05] in the city in Chennai, uh, like it’s called now. [00:04:10] And I followed him to a dental school not far from him. So [00:04:15] when I finished dentistry and I was wanted to do more and I want to learn [00:04:20] more, and the opportunity came and again followed my brother again. He came to UK [00:04:25] first, then I followed him. And when I came to United Kingdom, [00:04:30] where I was not able to stay to practice into dental practice, [00:04:35] so I had to do hospital job as as house of house [00:04:40] officer, senior house officer in, uh, oral surgery or maxillofacial surgery [00:04:45] department for nearly six years. So that’s how it started.

Speaker2: Okay, Balaji, I [00:04:50] want to take you straight back to the school that you, um, that your family started, right? [00:04:55] Um, and you went to the school. I just want to get an insight into. What was that like? How many kids [00:05:00] in that school, you know, how far was it from home and just generally what your upbringing was [00:05:05] like? Parents just give us a flavour of what it was like to be a child in that, in [00:05:10] that small village, local community and your upbringing.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:05:15] I mean, just two of us, me and my brother. Uh, so my parents were very supportive. [00:05:20] My dad was a businessman, but he always wanted to be educated. We [00:05:25] were educated to have a good job and, uh, in India. But he was not able to [00:05:30] be educated because of reasons like no schooling and no support. So he always [00:05:35] told us that, look, education is important. So he pushed us [00:05:40] and he started a school, as I said, with few of the parents, and we didn’t have many. [00:05:45] My class was only six students, uh, like we were four guys and two [00:05:50] girls. It’s a very, very small and in the evenings and we go [00:05:55] to each other’s house and study together and, um, and then there was no electricity like we [00:06:00] had electricity. Women, but mostly they are, you know, the evening just just just goes [00:06:05] off and power electricity.

Speaker2: Would just turn off in the evening.

Speaker1: Turn off [00:06:10] in the evening, like 2 or 2 hours or something every day. So I remember my brother and I, we were studying [00:06:15] in a small like a candle and sitting next to each other, and we’ve been just studying. And [00:06:20] then we because of the candle, we attract all the flies and insects [00:06:25] and stuff. But those are the memories you get back, you know? Uh, but my parents are always [00:06:30] been very, very supportive. They never let, let us do work or do any other job [00:06:35] like side jobs and stuff, like, uh, nothing. We just. You study. That’s all we need to do as a [00:06:40] parent. We are here to support you. Uh, and I’m very thankful for that.

Speaker2: It’s really interesting. [00:06:45] Right? Um, you know, even my parents, my, my well, my father [00:06:50] always pushed education, right? So, um, you know, my, my, my dad didn’t go [00:06:55] to university. And, you know, in this in, in the UK here, you know, worked [00:07:00] in factories, drove taxis and the shop and the one thing, the one message, the [00:07:05] overriding message was, um, look, son, the reason I’m working so hard is so [00:07:10] that you don’t have to do what I do, right. And I want a better life for you. And the overarching [00:07:15] the overarching philosophy was, um, education, education, [00:07:20] education. Right? It was it was all about that. And funny you say that, [00:07:25] that what they gave you was the freedom to say, look, you focus on education. We’ll [00:07:30] look after everything else around you. Right? You don’t need to work. Yeah. Um, [00:07:35] and funnily enough, you know, dad always gave me and my brother that that head space [00:07:40] in that room for education. Although we did work in the family business in the family shop. [00:07:45] Um, yeah. The one thing that he wouldn’t let us do is go out and get another job [00:07:50] or anything like that, or actually playing out and having fun with your mates and stuff, which we did quite a bit of. [00:07:55] Right. That wasn’t a priority. There was this strict overriding wasn’t, [00:08:00] you know, it was never said, but it was always sort of implied that the spend your [00:08:05] time studying. Right. And that’s where the direction what was that like from, from from your [00:08:10] folks. Right. In terms of the did you feel it as like a pressure? Did you feel it as [00:08:15] actually do you know what? I’m breaking the cycle here, and me and my brother are going to go out and [00:08:20] do something different and make dad proud or mum proud or whatever. What was going [00:08:25] on in your mind as a young kid back then?

Speaker1: The thing was, I never felt any [00:08:30] pressure, uh, or uh, any anything from anyone from my parents or anything [00:08:35] because they always, uh, explain to my brother and myself that, look, [00:08:40] you know, this is what we do, and we want you to be like, you know, the [00:08:45] next level and doing better in your life. And so that always pushed us in [00:08:50] a positive way. And I wanted to achieve something for myself and my [00:08:55] family. And moreover, I want to do something for the kids who may [00:09:00] be less fortunate than me, who doesn’t have parents, who [00:09:05] have, uh, you know, money or anything to push them. So that’s how I always my [00:09:10] back of my mind that my parents could start a school for their kids. And, [00:09:15] uh, I would like to do something, if not to the school, at least education [00:09:20] pass my skills to somebody else. So that’s how it started. Yeah. [00:09:25]

Speaker2: And so you do you do primary school, you go to a secondary school in a different town. [00:09:30] Or how like, how far away was that from, from where you grew up.

Speaker1: On [00:09:35] 15km from where I, uh, where my home [00:09:40] to their school. And the two. Only two ways you can go there is by a bus or [00:09:45] a or your own mode of transport. The one mode of transport is what we had was a bicycle. Because [00:09:50] there’s a bus. Sometimes it’s not reliable. Those days it comes in one day, doesn’t come next day. [00:09:55] So we just we just ride the bike as a friend and like a group of guys and [00:10:00] riding bike. It was fun.

Speaker2: Uh, yeah. I bet that was part and parcel [00:10:05] of the enjoyment, right? I remember as a kid growing up and playing around on BMX and stuff like [00:10:10] that and hanging out with my mates. Um, and so I guess there was much, as much [00:10:15] fun to be had on the way to and the way back from school as um, that’s school, right? [00:10:20] Um, and so you, you go to school and funnily enough, [00:10:25] I, um, I interviewed Devang Patel, who runs the Full Mouth Reconstruction Academy. [00:10:30] Right. And, you know, he told me some stories about, like, when he, um, got into [00:10:35] school there and then got into university there that he [00:10:40] was fortunate to have come from, um, parents who had some money. Right? Yeah. What [00:10:45] was the. Just just talk me through your process. Right. So you do the school thing, you sit some exams. [00:10:50] How do you get into dental school? In, in in India. And where did you where [00:10:55] did you go to dental school.

Speaker1: Right. The the process in India is similar to, uh, UK [00:11:00] educational system. You finished your secondary school, then you apply you. [00:11:05] It depends on the amount, the score, the mark you score in this secondary school. [00:11:10] Uh, similar to a level or GCSE here. Um, then you will be [00:11:15] doing another exam which is the we call entrance exam. So you go to school [00:11:20] again to the top mark in that. So then you they’ll be divided [00:11:25] into like the top creme of students. They go to medical [00:11:30] school. Yeah. Then the second thing comes to the dental uh school. [00:11:35] And then the third goes to veterinary or agricultural or engineering and stuff. So [00:11:40] I was offered a place in the medical school. And then I did go into medical school, [00:11:45] uh, for.

Speaker2: Where you went to medical school.

Speaker1: Yes, but I didn’t last for more than two, six [00:11:50] months. I didn’t like it. I didn’t enjoy.

Speaker2: So your brother, your brother went to medical [00:11:55] school, right? He older than you, I assume? Yes.

Speaker1: He’s three years older than me.

Speaker2: So your [00:12:00] brother was three years into the medical school system when you joined the medical school? That’s right. [00:12:05] You did it for six months?

Speaker1: Yes. I didn’t enjoy it. For [00:12:10] whatever reason, I. I didn’t like it. So then there’s a school, not the [00:12:15] building next to it. Like a few hundred yards. Next to it was a dental school building. Then I [00:12:20] went there to look at it, and then I had a friend who is three years older [00:12:25] than me, my in fact, my brother’s friend, he was doing dentistry and I started following [00:12:30] him, and I, I just loved it, the practical side of it and then the all [00:12:35] the stuff which really interested. So I opted out of the medical school. I went to the dental [00:12:40] school after that.

Speaker2: And was that as simple as just sort of saying, hey, [00:12:45] I’m not enjoying this anymore. Can I transfer to your course? What did you have to start from the beginning again [00:12:50] is something obviously at the beginning, like a lot of the curriculum is the same, right? Physiology, [00:12:55] pharmacology, anatomy, embryology, all that sort of stuff. Right?

Speaker1: The [00:13:00] year one is the same for both medical school and dental school, and even even year two almost [00:13:05] similar like you do medicine and all these things, a little bit of it. But from year three [00:13:10] it changes. Yes. So could you.

Speaker2: Easily transfer across?

Speaker1: No, [00:13:15] no, it’s not at all because it’s very, very hard. But I was lucky enough that that we had a [00:13:20] space that came available in dental school. The guy or a girl who was pulled out [00:13:25] to go into different things. So and then I had opportunity to that.

Speaker2: And so [00:13:30] you jumped into that spot basically, and then. Yes. And so, so did you start six [00:13:35] months into the dental school course, so to speak, you almost like swapped over or yes [00:13:40] or no?

Speaker1: I started again from the beginning. From the beginning, yes. The [00:13:45] year after.

Speaker2: The year after. Okay. So you took a year out and year after. And then what? [00:13:50] How did you explain this to your parents? Were they cool with this? I mean, I [00:13:55] guess you weren’t you weren’t dropping out to do something completely different, right? So. Yeah, but [00:14:00] but but how how did they take this? What did you say to them?

Speaker1: I mean, I just said, tell [00:14:05] them, look, this is what I want to do, and I like to do, but my dad, my dad was quite little bit, you know, [00:14:10] I can I could see that he was disappointed because he wanted both the son to want to be [00:14:15] a doctor and all those things. But, uh, but he didn’t say to me and he was very, very [00:14:20] supportive and said, look, okay, as long as you want to do what you want to do, then [00:14:25] yeah, that’s what happened. And they were very, very helpful.

Speaker2: Perfect. And then [00:14:30] so what was dental school like? Um, where you were, what was the name of the dental [00:14:35] school, by the way?

Speaker1: It’s called Madras Dental School, basically [00:14:40] the name of the city, Madras Dental School. And it was it [00:14:45] was I mean, I had a fun because I, because when I went [00:14:50] in until secondary school, uh, we had to work so hard, you know, no [00:14:55] day off is seven days a week. 24 by seven. You studied study, study. And [00:15:00] under the candlelight. Under the candlelight was from my mom and dad looking over you. But [00:15:05] when I left home, this is miles and miles away. So it’s the first two years, [00:15:10] as we all do, the best time of my life. University. And, uh, it’s kind [00:15:15] of fun. We had, uh, everything. Then my second, third year came and the reality [00:15:20] struck. Look, I got to do some very cool down that come down just to get [00:15:25] out of the school. Otherwise I’ll be here for another six, seven years. So. But it was fun. [00:15:30] Very good fun.

Speaker2: And so what was that like? So you went from obviously being [00:15:35] under the watchful eye of your parents to being free, so to speak. Yeah. What was what was [00:15:40] the fun stuff? What, what how would you describe those early days at university? [00:15:45]

Speaker1: The for me, uh, the most important thing is I love meeting [00:15:50] people and I can talk to strangers. My mom was [00:15:55] like that. My mom could speak to anyone on the street or anywhere she goes. And [00:16:00] I can do that, so I’m. I can make friends easily. I can, [00:16:05] you know, that’s what I enjoyed about it. Because in village and the village I come from is very [00:16:10] small. And then people I’ve known them from my all the time. But [00:16:15] when I went to this school, there are people all over from all over from India. India is a massive country, you know that. [00:16:20] Yeah. So different language, different culture, different, uh, everything. So [00:16:25] when you meet people like that, I love that. And second, my passion about travelling. [00:16:30] So I travelled with my friends. I had opportunity to go and see almost [00:16:35] everybody’s house, everybody’s village out of town, city, that part of the [00:16:40] Dental school or my university time I enjoyed. Wonderful. Even though. [00:16:45] Yeah. So I’m so sorry. But yeah, even though you didn’t party [00:16:50] that much those days, but, you know, that sort of thing. But we had a good [00:16:55] friendship. Yeah.

Speaker2: And so, um, what sort of student were you? Were you were [00:17:00] you sort of top of the class? We obviously you’re teaching now, right. Were you were you were the [00:17:05] equivalent of a grade A student or were you somewhere middle of the road or did you were you one of these guys [00:17:10] who right at the end, you just crammed, pulled out all the stops and did what you had to do to pass your exams? [00:17:15]

Speaker1: I maybe realised I’m always work, uh, on the last minute, [00:17:20] the I, I do well under pressure. That’s me. [00:17:25]

Speaker2: You know, funnily enough, I um so this last minute thing. Right. So if I’m and a [00:17:30] few of my friends who know me well, right, will will say if I’m giving a lecture tomorrow. [00:17:35] Yeah. Usually what I’ll do, I’ll be doing my slide prep if I’m doing it in the afternoon, [00:17:40] or I’ll be doing my slide prep in the morning, maybe right up until like an hour before. Right? [00:17:45] And I say, why the hell do you put this pressure on yourself? Like, why don’t you do [00:17:50] weeks? Because because I’ve got the time and I could do right. And I’ve got, I’ve got two, uh, two [00:17:55] answers to that question. One of them is my best ideas come when I’m under pressure. Yeah. [00:18:00] My best ideas come when I’m under pressure, right? Also, [00:18:05] always tell my friends this. If you leave it till the last minute, it only takes a minute. [00:18:10]

Speaker1: Yes, yes. No, I agree totally, because I always do [00:18:15] the last minute. Because I get more ideas and more, uh, my brain works better. [00:18:20] It’s like. Exactly. If you give me a week before I can, I tried, don’t get me wrong, I because [00:18:25] I try to do week before, but my mind will be thinking so many other things. [00:18:30] I can’t concentrate on that particular work.

Speaker2: That point you’ll have other last minute things [00:18:35] to do, right that the week before, right? Something else that’s high priority maybe in [00:18:40] the practice or whatever. Right. So definitely yeah, it’s shifting priorities. [00:18:45] Um, and then so as you go through dental school, um, you get you get your [00:18:50] dental degree, had your brother already come to the UK? Yes. [00:18:55] Before you.

Speaker1: He. That’s right. Yes. And he came to UK, [00:19:00] uh, three, two, two years before me. Yeah.

Speaker2: And was it always your plan as [00:19:05] well to, to to move to the UK, or were you thinking of staying in India. What [00:19:10] was your plan back then?

Speaker1: Like my plan I think to be honest, I’m a more of [00:19:15] a grafter. And, uh, I don’t I do plan a little bit, but I [00:19:20] don’t have many plans, like, I want to achieve this sort of guy. So when my [00:19:25] brother came to UK, my plan was to stay in, uh, India, to look [00:19:30] after my parents and stay there and do things. Then, uh, my, [00:19:35] my brother said, look, why don’t you come to UK, just have a look, see, feel how you feel [00:19:40] and what you want to do. Then I said, my parents said, okay, go. Go with him and if you [00:19:45] don’t like it, you can come back. And they knew. My parents knew that if I don’t like something, I won’t [00:19:50] do it. So and came here and then I straightaway got [00:19:55] into a hospital. Uh, observer job. Justin. Yeah.

Speaker2: So [00:20:00] so quick question around that. So when when your brother and your parents said, hey, go to the UK and [00:20:05] check it out. Was that you coming on holiday or was that you coming to apply for a job and [00:20:10] try a job here in the UK? What was the guys that you were that you were coming to [00:20:15] the UK and where in the UK did you land by the way?

Speaker1: Yeah, it was a uh what? [00:20:20] It’s a holiday visa. It’s a tourist visa. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I came as a tourist visa as [00:20:25] a holiday for six months and then landed in Heathrow in November, actually, uh, in [00:20:30] 1997. So my brother came and picked me up. And first time in the fall, [00:20:35] that’s what my first trip in my flight, I never flew before.

Speaker2: That was your first [00:20:40] flight ever.

Speaker1: First flight ever. So. And I, uh, it was amazing. Uh, [00:20:45] the memories and so I. Yeah. And my brother picked me up [00:20:50] from the airport, and I, he peop I mean, guys who comes [00:20:55] from India those days even baby now they, we all ended up in East Ham in London, [00:21:00] the East London where we all go there. And then that’s where we, [00:21:05] you know, we start our, uh, life, um, like, uh. Yeah. So [00:21:10] then my brother used to work there at that point in, uh, Cornwall, in [00:21:15] Truro. So next day we travelled to Truro and I stayed [00:21:20] with him, and, uh, I had a. Yeah, that’s that’s how I started.

Speaker2: So [00:21:25] cast your mind back to the point where your flight landed here [00:21:30] in Heathrow. Right? And then you step off that plane. What was that like for you? Was [00:21:35] it was there a big culture shock? Were you. Obviously you were taking everything in first time [00:21:40] in another country, right? Uh, what what what was what was that like? And [00:21:45] difference in culture or whatever they call it, the culture shock or whatever. What [00:21:50] did that feel like coming from where you’d where you’d come and used to that environment coming here [00:21:55] to UK. What are the biggest differences to you?

Speaker1: I was excited to be in UK, [00:22:00] but the one thing I was like, no, I was a bit, uh, surprised was because I watched [00:22:05] movies of English movies, like American movies and English movies. But always I thought, [00:22:10] there’ll be skyscrapers in London. So when I landed down and I was looking around, [00:22:15] I asked my brother, God, there’s no big buildings in London. He said, no, it’s not like America. [00:22:20] It’s not like New York that I remember very well. And then, uh, then [00:22:25] the culture shock wise. Yeah, I missed food. I still even [00:22:30] now I do. And, uh, I missed my parents because and, um, I haven’t left [00:22:35] India for until I was left and came to UK, so [00:22:40] that was a shock. But because, um, my brother was here, I felt [00:22:45] a bit more homely. And he was very supportive. Uh, so. Yeah, that’s how. And [00:22:50] were you.

Speaker2: Living with your brother at the time? In the early days, yes.

Speaker1: Yes. I was living with [00:22:55] him for nearly eight, six months and the same. And [00:23:00] so you.

Speaker2: Land here, you’re on a holiday visa. And then. And then [00:23:05] how do you go about getting your first job? And at what point did you think, hey, I’m going to be a dentist [00:23:10] in the UK now, how did that come about?

Speaker1: So what happened was by when I [00:23:15] was staying with my brother and I started writing to a few, um, [00:23:20] hospitals. There was, uh, to go and observe for like a, uh, observership [00:23:25] or assistantship. So you don’t get paid, but you just go and watch. So work experience sort [00:23:30] of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, uh, I had a reply from, uh, lovely, [00:23:35] uh, consultant, uh, filled guest, uh, from Bristol Royal Infirmary. [00:23:40] He was a consultant. He was such a lovely man. He was the only one called me [00:23:45] and said, look, come here and watch what we’re doing. So I [00:23:50] went there and I stayed in Bristol, uh, in the hospital for two weeks. And I [00:23:55] went to the theatre every day with him. He was doing like, um, uh, all the [00:24:00] cancer works and neck dissection, that sort of work. And that made [00:24:05] me feel, wow, I want to be one of that. Inspired you to be a surgeon? I want [00:24:10] to do it. And then that’s that’s how. And then I asked him, look, I want to stay here for longer. [00:24:15] Do you have any job coming up? And, uh, because I was [00:24:20] not educated in this country, he said, look, there may not be a job coming up in Royal Infirmary [00:24:25] because the dental school attached to it, but I will help you to find a job. So [00:24:30] then I stayed there for another six months as a work experience, [00:24:35] unpaid job during every fall and training day, in [00:24:40] and out of doing as normal job or house officer does every day. [00:24:45]

Speaker2: So just. I just want to I’m just trying to wrap my head around, like, back [00:24:50] in 1997. Yeah, I think I got my first email address [00:24:55] in 1997. Right. I started university then. Right. So it’s so [00:25:00] I remember it really well. So back then when you wrote to Phil Guest, was it a handwritten [00:25:05] letter? Was it an email? How did you communicate with him?

Speaker1: Yeah, no, it was uh, [00:25:10] like a computer. And you know, those floppy disks, you know, you have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:25:15] yeah. Do you remember that? Yes. So I had my CV and, uh, letter, uh, um, uh, handwritten [00:25:20] letter, but CV was typed in from the computer, so it’s a post [00:25:25] it to him. Uh, you posted a letter to him. Post a letter to him? Yes.

Speaker2: Yeah, yeah. [00:25:30]

Speaker1: And so then how did you.

Speaker2: Hear back from him? He. He rang you or he wrote back to you.

Speaker1: He [00:25:35] wrote back to me because I didn’t have a phone or no mobile phone those days, as you know. And so [00:25:40] I didn’t have a phone because I was staying with my brother in a hospital accommodation. So he wrote back to me. [00:25:45]

Speaker2: And how amazing, right? The, you know, you you post a [00:25:50] letter out and then this guy posts a letter back to you. And that’s the beginning [00:25:55] of your your career, right? That’s right. Your letter not landed or got lost [00:26:00] in the post or whatever. Right. You wouldn’t have thought about it again. Right? It’s really interesting that. [00:26:05]

Speaker1: That was the only reply I had for, uh, I maybe I posted 30 to 40 [00:26:10] letters and that was the only person who replied back to me. So.

Speaker2: Yeah. [00:26:15] Wow. And so he said, right, I’m gonna I’m gonna try [00:26:20] and find you a job. Right? He said, I can’t guarantee you what job, but I’ll find you a job. What was that [00:26:25] job? And what happened next?

Speaker1: Then, uh, I had opportunity [00:26:30] to I mean, he that he rang the consultant, uh, in Southampton [00:26:35] at that point, uh, Salisbury. Southampton. And then I, he said, go and [00:26:40] see him. If any job comes, you may get it. So I travelled, uh, I mean, I went there [00:26:45] to meet the, uh, Mr. Floyd, I think, remember, in Salisbury Capital. And that was my [00:26:50] first job. He said, yes, there’s a job coming in two months and, uh, come [00:26:55] and start working as a house officer. So as a junior doctor in a maxillofacial [00:27:00] surgery.

Speaker2: So what was there, was there any kind of academic stuff [00:27:05] that you had to get out of the way to be able to register? Like what [00:27:10] was the what was the process there for you? You have your dental degree from India. [00:27:15] You come here, you’ve been shadowing, not getting paid. Was there some [00:27:20] kind of conversion exam or tests for, uh.

Speaker1: But with [00:27:25] the, uh, temporary registration, it’s called, you know, you can’t practice [00:27:30] under, uh, without supervision, which means you can’t do House of the job in hospital [00:27:35] under supervision with the temporary registration. But that was the.

Speaker2: Basis [00:27:40] of your first.

Speaker1: Job. That’s the. That’s the basic of the first job. Yes.

Speaker2: Okay. So then what happened [00:27:45] then? You did that first job. How long were you in that job for?

Speaker1: I left that job. Every [00:27:50] job, uh, changes every six months. So I was there for six months. Then I went to Southampton, [00:27:55] uh, for six months. Then I worked, like, every six months. I moved away, [00:28:00] uh, to different hospitals, to Glasgow, to Nottingham, everywhere, all [00:28:05] over the country.

Speaker2: Just hopping from job to job every six months. Similar job in Max [00:28:10] FACs doing sort of under this temporary registration. What sort of work were you doing back [00:28:15] then under supervision? What was your day to day and what sort of hours were you doing.

Speaker1: Those [00:28:20] days was really, uh, I enjoyed purely because there were only 3 or [00:28:25] 4 shows, a senior house officers in each department and depend on which [00:28:30] department you go. Um, particularly I can remember I worked in near Liverpool, uh, [00:28:35] in Wirral, where we had, uh, the trauma was so much [00:28:40] okay, whatever reason. And then as a. Surgeon. I mean, [00:28:45] uh, dentist and maxillofacial dentist. You get to see fixing [00:28:50] fractured mandible, fixing maxilla or wisdom tooth extraction every day. [00:28:55] Wisdom tooth extraction was like a day to day, uh, bread and butter for us. Like 4 [00:29:00] or 5 a day, like shelling peas.

Speaker2: Right? Just super.

Speaker1: Easy. Exactly. Yeah. Super [00:29:05] easy. Like, do that sort of thing. And then sometime you get road traffic accident, you’re [00:29:10] working with your registrar, you know, fixing broken bones. So you get a lot of surgical exposures. [00:29:15] And then the hours of working was in a morning, you start at 8:00. [00:29:20] But if the busy unit starts at seven, we go on the ward rounds and everything, [00:29:25] and then you go and start your clinics or helping, um, consultant [00:29:30] in the theatre, which will be until five, six, sometimes 7:00 in the evening, [00:29:35] then weekends. It used to be 1 in 3 young girls every [00:29:40] week and every other sort of thing you do. You start on Friday night [00:29:45] and you finish on Saturday morning. You start and you finish on Monday morning. [00:29:50] So it’s continuous straight through on call, straight through those days. Yes, [00:29:55] straight through Saturday morning to Monday morning.

Speaker2: Did you get a couple of hours sleep [00:30:00] in the in the doctor’s mess or something like that in between?

Speaker1: Exactly. Yeah. You sleep in the doctor’s mess [00:30:05] and then you just go and they call you any facial lacerations or broken bone [00:30:10] or anything they call you and anything to do with face. Um, so you [00:30:15] have that all the time.

Speaker2: So you really got thrown into the deep end right in [00:30:20] your first job. Six every six months, jumping from hospital to hospital, city to city, town [00:30:25] to town, being exposed to doing these long hours, being woken up. And [00:30:30] you know, whether it’s from Saturday to Monday morning or whatever, right? You really got your. That’s [00:30:35] right. I have a feeling you got your 10,000 hours in really, really quickly. Exactly. [00:30:40] In those early days, right?

Speaker1: Yes. But the good thing was it’s like a family [00:30:45] bug, you know, when you are, uh, working in a hospital, you like, for example, weekends, you [00:30:50] literally you are a accident emergency department all the time. So [00:30:55] there will be you make friends from different, uh, specialities orthopaedic surgeons [00:31:00] or ophthalmic to everyone’s there as well, waiting for their cases to be treated. [00:31:05] So you it’s like a family and. Yeah, [00:31:10] that’s how you and the nurses and radiographers and stuff. Yeah.

Speaker2: And [00:31:15] so at what point did your did your registration [00:31:20] stroke career move from being under temporary registration or supervised [00:31:25] registration, whatever that’s called, to being a fully licensed hey, I can [00:31:30] do my own thing now. When did that happen?

Speaker1: Yeah, well what [00:31:35] happened? You can have a temporary registration for maximum four years. So. [00:31:40] But the four year came sort of thing. And again, last minute, like I said, I was like having [00:31:45] fun working, you know, enjoying it. Then at the time came, look, I have to do something [00:31:50] if I have to stay in this country, if not, I can’t do it. So the other option I had was I [00:31:55] because I want to do the Max Maxillofacial surgery. I thought going back to medical [00:32:00] school in UK where I left in India, I started again because you [00:32:05] got to be doubly qualified to become a max price consultant. So I played for [00:32:10] Nottingham University and then the Leeds and then Nottingham City [00:32:15] accepted sort of thing. And then I found out I had to pay £25,000 [00:32:20] a year for five years for as a fee, because overseas candidates [00:32:25] just for the job, just to go into medical school. Oh. [00:32:30]

Speaker2: I see, I got you. Yeah. Understood. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Speaker1: So [00:32:35] then I didn’t have that money to go into medical school. So I told my consultant who was very helpful, [00:32:40] and I said, look, I can’t do it. So then I did, uh, what exam, [00:32:45] which is the IQ point and all these things. I passed the exam and before [00:32:50] I passed it, I was wanted to do something to get the permanent registration [00:32:55] in the GDC, which allows me to work unsupervised [00:33:00] in, let’s say, in a dental practice or whatever it is. So [00:33:05] I did my LDS RCS one year program in Glasgow Dental School. [00:33:10] Um, that was 2004, I believe. Uh, is [00:33:15] that a.

Speaker2: Full is that a full time thing, or were you able to work and earn money at the same.

Speaker1: Time? No, no, no, it [00:33:20] was a full time course. So I went back to student life again in Glasgow. Uh, for [00:33:25] a year I did my LDS RCS. By the time I finished LDS year, I got [00:33:30] my LDS year and I finished my two MFT and MVT DS, uh, [00:33:35] one in Glasgow and one in Edinburgh’s Royal College. Then [00:33:40] I got my IQ at the same time. So eventually when I came out of [00:33:45] that, by the time I was eligible to work in a dental practice as [00:33:50] unsupervised. So that’s open. Mind the whole thing.

Speaker2: So how long did that how [00:33:55] long did that piece take from you sort of saying, okay, I’ve been jumping from hospital job to [00:34:00] hospital job every six months for four years. My time’s run out now. I could go here, [00:34:05] but it’s 125 grand. I’ve got this other option, which is. Which is to [00:34:10] go for this mfds, um, option. And then you were in full time education [00:34:15] back as a student, I take it, not earning any money, but just sort of getting by [00:34:20] on savings, I guess. Yes.

Speaker1: That’s right. Yes. Whatever leftover I had. Yeah. After [00:34:25] spending years.

Speaker2: And then, uh, how long did that take before you had [00:34:30] your license?

Speaker1: Took me 16 months. Because there is 12 months of my, [00:34:35] uh, course education. The exam I passed, then I had my registration [00:34:40] came out two months after that. Then I started applying for a jobs. [00:34:45] And again, I want to go back into hospital. So even at that point, I didn’t know whether [00:34:50] should I go into Dental sort of practices or go into hospital. So [00:34:55] I went back into hospital as a staff grade in Stoke on Trent for [00:35:00] three months. Um, but I didn’t like it because I couldn’t see any [00:35:05] progress of my career. I know I will stay as a staff grader rest [00:35:10] of my life. So then I changed my mind and I came to, [00:35:15] uh, dentistry. And I did my vocational training, uh, in North [00:35:20] Wales at that point.

Speaker2: So what did you do? Did you have to apply for a bunch of jobs for [00:35:25] the vet or. Yes.

Speaker1: Yes. Uh, at that point there’s, uh, it came up, [00:35:30] uh, in Wales, uh, the area. So I applied for it and I got [00:35:35] selected in North Wales, and I did a vet for a year. So to get [00:35:40] my number.

Speaker2: So. So at this point I’m thinking, look, if I’ve just [00:35:45] employed you as my vet, right? And then there’s the other guys who are [00:35:50] coming out of dental school. You’ve got so much more experience, right? You’ve put [00:35:55] people’s faces back together. You’re pulling wisdom teeth out like it’s, um, you know, [00:36:00] putting your socks on. Do you know what I mean? Like, you’ve got all this ton of experience. What [00:36:05] was that like in that practice, and what was that like for your trainer? Um, [00:36:10] did you find it easy at that point, or were you were you learning completely new tricks that were outside [00:36:15] of hospital medicine now? Right. The totally different way of looking at patients. The journey taught [00:36:20] me through that.

Speaker1: Wow. That’s a really good question because when I went to VAT, you’re right. And I had so much [00:36:25] skills in surgical side, but I didn’t know how to do crown prep. I didn’t know [00:36:30] how to do, let’s say, root canal treatment. I didn’t know how to do a maybe class two fillings [00:36:35] because I lost touch in general dentistry for nearly six years. Yeah. So [00:36:40] and I went back and I learned the whole skills again. And the person I like [00:36:45] to mention the name here is, uh, Nigel Jones. Uh, he’s amazing guy. He’s a, uh, advisor [00:36:50] those days in Wales, in Abergavenny. He was so good. And [00:36:55] and so I approached him every time I had a block and said, look, I don’t know what to do. [00:37:00] So he said, look, turn over. These are the instruments you use. These are the amalgam fillings, how you do. [00:37:05] And um, so it was another learning back, going back to dental [00:37:10] school and learning those skills again.

Speaker2: You know, it [00:37:15] feels to me you’re going back and forth and back like it’s not the traditional straight line approach. Right? [00:37:20] Is the, you know, you come here and you’re going six months to six [00:37:25] months, but you’re putting people’s faces together, right? You’re pulling out wisdom. You’re doing all this [00:37:30] complex surgical stuff that people do like years after they’ve graduated. Right. And [00:37:35] but but then you’re going back to dental school and saying, right, I’m going to learn how to prep this crown. [00:37:40] I’m going to learn how to do a root canal. I’m going to learn how to do basic dentistry now. Right. So you’ve got it’s almost [00:37:45] like you take a step forward, take a step back, forward, back, and all the rest of it. Um, what [00:37:50] do you think that did for your overall sort of skill set and grounding in dentistry? It’s completely non-traditional [00:37:55] in the approach that most definitely most UK dentists would take. Right.

Speaker1: Exactly. [00:38:00] I mean, the one thing in life I learned as a career as a person is, [00:38:05] uh, every time something, uh, the difficulty faced and [00:38:10] you may step back and in your life. But what it gives me is it [00:38:15] gives me the character, you know, it gives me build me as a person. That’s [00:38:20] what I learned from that, you know, it’s a job. It’s a job. But what as a person, [00:38:25] what you can do as a human, the character building everything is a character building. [00:38:30] That’s how it is 100%.

Speaker2: And so so you go, you [00:38:35] you’ve got that sort of first job, you do your VTE, what [00:38:40] happens next?

Speaker1: So when I did a VAT and I could because [00:38:45] my, my again my trainer um in in where I work he was [00:38:50] very helpful. And he said, look, we have to refer all the wisdom to the hospital [00:38:55] and the waiting list is like six months or can you, can we do a [00:39:00] work here? I said, so I started doing all the wisdom tooth and a little bit of, uh, [00:39:05] difficult extraction work and everything, and the towards the end of my, uh, [00:39:10] my VAT and I approached my trainer and said, look, I like to do implants, I like to do [00:39:15] some surgical work. So he said, okay, he gave me a in, uh, sort of day [00:39:20] off towards the end of the VAT to go and do an implant course, which is the Hill. Tatum. [00:39:25] Uh, great guy, my first mentor of my life career [00:39:30] in, uh, Harley Street in London, where I started my implant career [00:39:35] and did my first course with Hill Tatum, where I learned the placing implants and sinus [00:39:40] graft and that sort of thing. Then I stayed in the same practice for three [00:39:45] years following my vet and, uh, doing start doing [00:39:50] implants and private dentistry slowly. Yeah.

Speaker2: And so did the implant [00:39:55] side of things just come naturally to you because of your years of like, four [00:40:00] years of, like, surgical grounding, right?

Speaker1: That’s [00:40:05] right. Yeah.

Speaker2: Do you think that was naturally the career that you were going to choose anyway because [00:40:10] of that, that grounding or.

Speaker1: No, not really. Then I went to [00:40:15] I studied in Florida, uh, in, uh, Peter Pete Dawson, uh, occlusion, [00:40:20] you know, occlusion. Yeah. Uh, occlusion, occlusion and all these things. And I before [00:40:25] he retired completely. So I travelled to Florida, Tampa, where [00:40:30] his, uh, his, his academy was. And then I travelled six months to [00:40:35] Florida every month. I was there for six, seven days trying to learn, you [00:40:40] know, occlusion and veneer or aesthetic dentistry and stuff. [00:40:45] And I enjoyed it. Uh, but same time I was doing implants on a little bit on [00:40:50] the side, but naturally I my skills are more [00:40:55] into surgery. So I slowly and then moved on to different techniques and different. Yeah, that’s what [00:41:00] it. So I tried, I tried orthodontics as well and did every bit of dentistry.

Speaker2: Yeah, [00:41:05] you had a bit of a crack at everything before settling on to.

Speaker1: Exactly to find what? Yeah, what [00:41:10] I enjoy and doing to.

Speaker2: To find what was right for you. And so [00:41:15] that’s like, how did you go from there to [00:41:20] what was the journey from there to becoming a practice owner?

Speaker1: Yes. Um, I [00:41:25] worked in Wales with that same practice for three years, and I worked in another practice in Colwyn [00:41:30] Bay for another, uh, part time, two part time job. Then [00:41:35] when I started doing implants, uh, that point, after 2 or 3 years, [00:41:40] I started seeing complications, like project or failures and my own job [00:41:45] and my own work, and I wanted to learn or I want to find an answer [00:41:50] for it, why this is happening? How can I improve it? Then what [00:41:55] happened was then I tried to do more courses, sort of travelling there [00:42:00] as associate, I can’t. I didn’t have freedom of choosing how many days [00:42:05] I can take time off or I instrument wise or that sort of thing. And so [00:42:10] I started looking for a practices where I can buy. In North [00:42:15] Wales Chester area. Because I’m from India, I don’t have any [00:42:20] plan to stay anywhere in UK. Right? Hop job to every six months to Glasgow, [00:42:25] to Southampton.

Speaker2: You’ve done the rounds right? You’ve been everywhere. So you’re not locked down [00:42:30] to a location.

Speaker1: Exactly. So I took him up and I said, look, this [00:42:35] is what I’m going to do. So I’m going to travel around and find the dream, uh, practice. [00:42:40] So I travelled everywhere and I went for a, you know, I like [00:42:45] buying a practice. I looked at so many practices. Then I found this place in Buckingham. Buckingham [00:42:50] is a very small town in Buckinghamshire, which I never knew this [00:42:55] place existed until I came to this place. So I found this place, and, [00:43:00] um, this place, the gallery dental implant centre is not. [00:43:05] Didn’t exist before I bought it. The dentist who had this practice [00:43:10] in different building, totally different building. He was doing two days of dentistry, that’s all. [00:43:15] He was just right running it down. And he. [00:43:20] I met him and said, no, I’m that practice was in a big eight house, coach [00:43:25] house, like eight room coach house, very old, uh, house. [00:43:30] So he said, I sold the house already to somebody else. The business is there, [00:43:35] and these are the patients you have. You want to buy it off me? I said, okay, [00:43:40] fine. And I took the business.

Speaker2: How did this come about? Was there [00:43:45] a broker involved? How did you know this guy? How did you approach him?

Speaker1: It [00:43:50] wasn’t a big, um. So I, um, practice [00:43:55] for sale. So I just came, and then I met him. And apparently nobody wanted to buy [00:44:00] this practice because he sold the building, and he just got the goodwill. So I [00:44:05] ended up. Yeah. So I ended up buying the goodwill. And, uh, he [00:44:10] pointed out this building where we are sitting right now. Look, there’s the empty building there. [00:44:15] Yeah, you can lease it and you can start the practice there. And this is your goodwill. [00:44:20] And I bought it. I bought it for us. Yeah.

Speaker2: How far from [00:44:25] the big courthouse building was the building you’re sitting right now?

Speaker1: It’s like a 200 [00:44:30] yards. Not far.

Speaker2: Okay, so not far. Um. And what how much [00:44:35] did you buy the goodwill of the practice for back then? What were the numbers back then?

Speaker1: I [00:44:40] mean, I didn’t even look into numbers, to be honest. Yeah, I’m not a number guy.

Speaker2: Yeah, [00:44:45] yeah.

Speaker1: When I paid, uh, yeah.

Speaker2: Out of curiosity, what did [00:44:50] you pay for the goodwill back then of the practice?

Speaker1: £80,000? Because [00:44:55] there were 80 grand. But they only had he had maybe 150 [00:45:00] patients in total.

Speaker2: And so what was going through your mind? I need to buy a practice. [00:45:05] There’s a building over there, and I take. It was an empty building. Didn’t have a chair in [00:45:10] it or anything like that, right? No. So you had to start from scratch there. I’m assuming you had to invest some money [00:45:15] into that, right?

Speaker1: Yes. That’s right. And that’s another big story. And then he pointed [00:45:20] to this building and I leased the building, and he [00:45:25] introduced the builder or the Dental thing guy. It’s [00:45:30] not a big company, very small company, something like that. And, uh, he started [00:45:35] on the guy who did the building. He said, oh, I will finish in six weeks for you. Um, you [00:45:40] can move straight away. Fine. Give me the whole money. And [00:45:45] I was naive enough to give not to give for money. But I gave him half of the money, and three days later, [00:45:50] he went into administration. Oh, crikey. [00:45:55] Yeah I saw I.

Speaker2: Just that just just humour [00:46:00] me on the numbers. Right. You’ve paid 80 grand for some goodwill. Um, on a practice [00:46:05] that. Was that still operating in the old coach house building or that shut [00:46:10] down.

Speaker1: No, that’s I don’t.

Speaker2: Okay, so you now got you’ve now got these this [00:46:15] goodwill of these patients who’ve got nowhere to go. Yep. Because there’s no practice. [00:46:20] You lease a building.

Speaker1: Yep.

Speaker2: You pay a builder. What what [00:46:25] did you pay this guy?

Speaker1: I paid him a 60,000. You paid this guy.

Speaker2: 60 [00:46:30] grand, right? So you’re now 140 grand in?

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker2: Do [00:46:35] you have goodwill that’s deteriorating by the day? Because these patients have got nowhere to go, so they’re [00:46:40] probably finding another dentist, right?

Speaker1: That’s right, that’s right.

Speaker2: And you’ve got an empty. You’ve got an empty [00:46:45] building that you need to put a dental practice in. Right.

Speaker1: That’s right. Plus [00:46:50] the next plus the staff. Because the staff, the staff came. Oh shit. [00:46:55] Because yeah, you got to you got to take the staff with two, three rules. So I had one receptionist [00:47:00] and two nurse with me. All right.

Speaker2: So you’re paying their wages during [00:47:05] this time?

Speaker1: Yes, I have to. Yeah. So we were in this [00:47:10] building, new building with the boxes of 2 or 3 boxes full of the old paper [00:47:15] notes. Paper notes, of course. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and our phone number, we had the same phone number, [00:47:20] so there’s a phone and connected to the thing. Like you said, all the patients are ringing and [00:47:25] what’s happening and all this stuff. So what happened was, uh, there’s a practice [00:47:30] another 100 yards from where we are now. I called Meadowlark Dental Practice. [00:47:35] He was a lovely, lovely, uh, dentist. So I approached him and say, look, can [00:47:40] I hire you a room? Uh, one room at least two days a week just [00:47:45] to service my patients. And he said yes. So I hired [00:47:50] the room per two days per week, just treating the existing patients for [00:47:55] 3 to 4 months. And then I found another builder and I [00:48:00] paid the rest of the money and. The Gallery and Dental Implant Centre [00:48:05] was born at that point.

Speaker2: So how long did that take?

Speaker1: It took kind of the two [00:48:10] months to do it. Two months? Three. Yeah. So three, four months in total. I was like. [00:48:15]

Speaker2: But but in the meantime, you were paying this other guy to rent a surgery [00:48:20] or two or whatever to.

Speaker1: That’s right.

Speaker2: Keep the goodwill alive.

Speaker1: Yes. [00:48:25] That’s right. That’s what I did.

Speaker2: Excellent. And, um. So [00:48:30] now you’ve got, you’ve got you’ve got the practice. What was it back then and what is it today. What’s [00:48:35] happened to that practice in that time?

Speaker1: When we start, when we start working [00:48:40] in this practice, I had again a two days of dentistry. That’s it. Nothing else. We didn’t have enough patients more than [00:48:45] that. So, uh, I just, uh, started working still, [00:48:50] I kept my job in Wales, so I used to travel every Sunday night, work there [00:48:55] Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And I came down here, I worked, I worked on [00:49:00] Thursday and Friday, and I slept in this same building every, uh, when [00:49:05] I’m here because I used to, uh, have a house in Chester. That’s where I lived with my [00:49:10] family. So I used to sleep in this, uh, building, uh, when I’m here, [00:49:15] and I still. I got that, uh, Ikea couch, uh, as in my practice [00:49:20] where I used to sleep. And so. When.

Speaker2: When. So. Sorry. So when when you were working in, [00:49:25] in the practice, you’d you’d just sleep in the practice. Yeah. Yes. On the.

Speaker1: Couch. Practice on the couch. [00:49:30] Yes.

Speaker2: On the couch. Um, yeah. And then when would you go back home? [00:49:35]

Speaker1: So I go. I finished here on, uh, Friday, Thursday, [00:49:40] Friday. And I go home on Saturday in Chester. So I walk there on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. [00:49:45] I come back on Thursday, Friday. So, so two, three, three nights I slept here in [00:49:50] this place. And the practice I used to rent a room and I [00:49:55] purchased this practice six years ago now. So it’s through the practice of mine now here [00:50:00] in. Oh, so you went you.

Speaker2: Bought Meadow Walk Dental practice.

Speaker1: In the end? Yes, at the end. Six years [00:50:05] ago. Yes. That’s right. Yeah.

Speaker2: Isn’t that a lovely story?

Speaker1: It [00:50:10] is, it is? Yeah. I didn’t think back. Would I do it again? Maybe not. I wouldn’t do it, but [00:50:15] I it worked out, you know, it worked out well for me.

Speaker2: I think there’s a lot of things definitely [00:50:20] in business that we would all. Not do looking back [00:50:25] with the knowledge we have today. Exactly. But it shapes who we are today [00:50:30] as well. Right at the.

Speaker1: Very well. Well, said, Sir Paul.

Speaker2: The the [00:50:35] sleeping on the couch. Yeah, the the renting the room in the practice [00:50:40] and the. Yes. Paying the builder and him running off, you know, going [00:50:45] into administration three days later or whatever. Right. You clearly you would have made those mistakes again. [00:50:50] Right. But it’s those big mistakes that you become more cautious. You learn. You learn [00:50:55] from them. Right? You get burnt. Um, and you evolve as a business owner. Right? [00:51:00] So so you’ve got the two practices, you’ve got metal work and you’ve got the gallery. [00:51:05] So what are they? What are they like today? If you if you were to sort of describe them as in how [00:51:10] many surgeries are they busy, what type of dentistry are you doing across the practices. [00:51:15]

Speaker1: The gallery. Dental. Yeah. And the gallery is [00:51:20] purely to do with the surgical side eye implants, bone graft, soft tissue grafting and that sort [00:51:25] of thing. And we’ve got a hygienist room in two, only two rooms in the gallery. So [00:51:30] my plan was to expand this practice, but the [00:51:35] Meadows came on the market, so I bought it. So there we have five surgeries [00:51:40] and then we have four others, three associates and then part time associate. [00:51:45] And we got two hygienists there. So there we do all the day [00:51:50] to day dentistry, Invisalign, uh, all the facial regeneration, [00:51:55] that sort of thing. Gallery is purely to do with the surgical side of the thing. I’m [00:52:00] busy. I work four days a week. Monday is my admin day, but rest of the [00:52:05] time I do surgeries every day in and out and booked up for another 3 [00:52:10] to 4 months.

Speaker2: Wonderful. And and so in terms of the, [00:52:15] um, being a being a practice owner right now, a business owner, it seems [00:52:20] like the gallery is like your home where you’re doing your surgical stuff. That’s [00:52:25] right. Four days a week or whatever. Right. And it almost feels it almost feels to me. You’ve got this [00:52:30] other medical dental practice where there’s all sorts of other non implant related stuff going on [00:52:35] that takes care of itself. Are you have you got really good management team in place. How do [00:52:40] you run that business. Do you, do you do you do you get involved in the day to day of that.

Speaker1: No I’m [00:52:45] I’m not good in admin admin things. To be honest with you. I’m a surgeon. Like I do [00:52:50] like surgery I do, I’m a clinician. Yeah. So I got I’m so lucky that I got a fantastic [00:52:55] team. I got a business manager and Jenny and I got a clinical manager [00:53:00] who runs the look of the staff rota and payment and payroll and everything. And [00:53:05] I got two treatment coordinators, Bella and Emily. They look after all the [00:53:10] patient side of the journey. We got three receptionists between the two practices [00:53:15] and we got like nine, 11 nurses between the two practices. [00:53:20]

Speaker2: And you have team members that hop between the two practices. Are they close [00:53:25] enough for that to happen? Yeah.

Speaker1: Very close. Like yeah very very close. Like a the cactus. [00:53:30] Right. So the the swap between us I go there sometimes if you have a joint [00:53:35] consultation with my other colleagues because we got endodontist, we got a periodontist as [00:53:40] well in the other practice. So every new patient or whoever is seeing like [00:53:45] a multi-specialty thing, we do work together.

Speaker2: And I take it you’re [00:53:50] not travelling all that. You’ve relocated your home closer to the practice? Yeah.

Speaker1: Right now I [00:53:55] live near Oxford, so it’s not for 20 minutes, right?

Speaker2: Okay. Okay, [00:54:00] fine. And what what would you say the biggest challenges have been in growing those businesses [00:54:05] to. You’ve got you’re in a position where I think a lot of people would love to be in [00:54:10] where you’re doing four days a week, the type of dentistry you love doing day in and day [00:54:15] out. You’ve also got a business that’s kind of running itself very hands off. [00:54:20] What were the challenges in getting there?

Speaker1: The challenges was like, first [00:54:25] of all, because I didn’t have any support. And in [00:54:30] UK, as a mum, dad or whoever it is, apart from brothers. So financial challenges [00:54:35] was a big thing for me. Everything I had to, you know, financially, I have to go to the [00:54:40] bank and get the loan repayment. Second thing is the [00:54:45] like every business has got like building the business as a patient base, you know, [00:54:50] so gaining the trust because the Buckingham is a very, very small town. It’s not a [00:54:55] big city. So getting the trust from the patient was to start [00:55:00] with it was challenging. But now, you know, they are in a really good [00:55:05] position where we are. And then other thing is the for me, this [00:55:10] is my one thing is the communication of uh to my staff, our colleagues. [00:55:15] That’s the a lot of dentists I think I can talk for myself is, [00:55:20] uh, I have a vision, but I didn’t communicate that vision to my team, [00:55:25] so that sort of thing I’m learning. I’m slowly. I’m still. I’m learning [00:55:30] that to communicate with them such a way that they understand what I want or [00:55:35] what I need as a team, we need most of the time. It’s, uh. I always [00:55:40] happy to blame others. Oh, this didn’t happen because that doesn’t big thing. [00:55:45] But now I realise that is.

Speaker2: You know, it’s so true that that [00:55:50] that thing of, you know, in my mind. In your mind, probably the same thing, right? [00:55:55] That you give a team member a task or you ask them to do something, [00:56:00] but you assume that what you ask them to do and the outcome, they’ve [00:56:05] they’ve worked the bit out in the middle. Right. But you’ve never told them. You’ve never told them the [00:56:10] middle bit. Right? Yes. But you assume somehow by osmosis, they’ve picked that [00:56:15] up, the piece in the middle and they can go away and do it right, a bit like a [00:56:20] bit like somebody might assume that you’ve been to dental school and you’ve been putting people’s faces together, [00:56:25] so you’ll be able to do a crown prep in your sleep. Right?

Speaker1: But exactly. You’re right.

Speaker2: But but [00:56:30] you don’t. Right. And and often as a, as a business owner and a leader, [00:56:35] you I’ve often made that mistake as well, where I just expect a team member [00:56:40] to do things. And I think, do you know what? The only reason they’re making mistakes, the only reason they screwed [00:56:45] up. Yeah. Is my screw up. Right. Exactly.

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker2: Because [00:56:50] either I’ve not delivered that message correctly or I’ve not given them the training or [00:56:55] spell everything out in a way that they can now fly with their own wings. Right. And that’s right. I [00:57:00] really believe that that, that whatever mistakes our team members make [00:57:05] and some of them, okay, they’ll make the mistakes by themselves. We all make mistakes, right? Of course, often the. [00:57:10]

Speaker1: Thing.

Speaker2: With with those expectations, sometimes we’ve got to look inwards and think, well, have I delivered [00:57:15] what I’m supposed to do on on the training or the delegation and that side of things?

Speaker1: That’s [00:57:20] very true. Yeah for.

Speaker2: Sure. Right. And it’s very easy to when you’re running a business [00:57:25] to point the finger and blame, you know, it’s um, very, very easy. But [00:57:30] as I, as I’m standing here, one thing, my daughter, my eldest daughter says to me, never [00:57:35] point like that. Because when you point, there’s three fingers pointing back at you, right? Uh. [00:57:40]

Speaker1: That’s true.

Speaker2: I learned it.

Speaker1: From my daughter as well. You learned that from you? Exactly. [00:57:45] My daughter says the same thing. Daddy, you know what? You don’t say things, but you expect [00:57:50] things, and you don’t do this. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker2: Yeah yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So [00:57:55] the challenge is in getting your team to. And I guess you’re still, you’re still coming across those challenges [00:58:00] right. As a business every day. Every every day. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. But it’s getting [00:58:05] better I’m getting better I think.

Speaker2: And then in just in terms of like the patient journey, [00:58:10] how have you created that I guess, [00:58:15] um, demand or whatever it is, that brand that [00:58:20] patients come to you and you’re busy four days a week surgically, you’ve got months [00:58:25] ahead. So what that means to me is the patients don’t want to go anywhere else, right? They just want you. [00:58:30] Right? So they’ll wait for you. Yeah. So. So you went from [00:58:35] buying the practice for 80 grand, not having enough patients, not being busy to being [00:58:40] booked months in advance. Obviously it wasn’t an overnight success, but what was the journey in creating [00:58:45] that demand such that patients will wait months? And you’re super busy. And I’m [00:58:50] assuming, you know, your fee structure is appropriate as well for your skill set.

Speaker1: Yes, yes. [00:58:55] The thing I learned from a few of my mentors is like what I would [00:59:00] say, uh. My first. The next boss, he [00:59:05] said, told me this tone when I started working with him. Look, you worked [00:59:10] in the hospital, right? You see patient today. You won’t see them next day or the week after. They won’t [00:59:15] come back to you. But in practice, particularly in private practices, whatever [00:59:20] you do, you are the one fixing it, right? So when you do first [00:59:25] time, do it right. Okay. So yeah, don’t cut corners in [00:59:30] cost wise or work wise because if you do it wrong, they come back to you after a month or a week or a [00:59:35] year. You fix your own fault, more stress, more [00:59:40] money and more problems and then you lose trust. So do it. [00:59:45] First best, best job. First time. Yeah. Then I have my [00:59:50] own little saying. Tell me if I treat my dad coming to my practice or my brother [00:59:55] come to my practice, I have a treatment done just exactly same way I [01:00:00] treat everybody walking through the door in the surgery. And that’s the ethos. All of our I tell [01:00:05] this almost every day to my associates, my ministers, my receptionist, [01:00:10] treat every single patient as your relative or your brother or sister. No [01:00:15] difference. That’s the what we did. And we do still we do. And [01:00:20] that’s I think I believe that’s what helped us to grow where we are now.

Speaker2: It’s [01:00:25] really interesting, isn’t it, that you have this one overriding value. [01:00:30] Yeah. Which is look, every patient that walks through [01:00:35] that door is my niece, nephew, uncle, auntie, brother, sister, whatever. Right. [01:00:40] Exactly. And we want to deliver. We want to deliver the experience and the treatment so that and you don’t need to say any [01:00:45] more, right? Because that handles and covers everything, right? Everything.

Speaker1: Everything. Exactly. [01:00:50] Yeah. Be nice to them when I don’t. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Speaker2: So you know, if [01:00:55] and when you take businesses that are very heavily value driven, [01:01:00] everything else falls into place. That’s right.

Speaker1: That’s true. That’s [01:01:05] the one thing my dad always told me I we went from when we were kids. Don’t follow [01:01:10] money, right. Do the right thing. Let money follows you. Yeah. [01:01:15] That’s always we’ve been told and that’s what we do. Um, I’d like [01:01:20] to.

Speaker2: So, Balaji, I want to. I want to touch upon the teaching. Um, [01:01:25] but before I do that, there’s. There’s one little thing that came in the midst of all this story, [01:01:30] and that’s family, right? Um, so so you’ve already mentioned, [01:01:35] you know, your daughter and my daughter tell us the same stories, right? So. That’s right. Tell [01:01:40] me how that all came about. Right. Because in between you landing in in Heathrow [01:01:45] and jumping from job to job for six months, voluntary under under and [01:01:50] paid under, um, under supervision and then going and doing your full time. At what point [01:01:55] did you, um, get married, have kids and have time to fit [01:02:00] this in? What point in the story did that all fit in?

Speaker1: Yeah, I met, uh, Heidi, [01:02:05] my my wife, uh, she’s Heidi, she’s half German, half English. Uh, I met her in [01:02:10] a senior house officer when working in, uh, Nottingham. Mansfield rotation. [01:02:15] And, uh, 2002, I met, [01:02:20] uh, no, 2001. We met. Then we got married in 2003. [01:02:25] Uh, August. And, um, then she [01:02:30] she.

Speaker2: She a dentist or a or.

Speaker1: No, she was, uh, and she works in the hospital [01:02:35] as an occupational health adviser. So I said, like, you know, when you’re in hospital, [01:02:40] you’re a sick family. You meet people, you meet things. So that’s how I met. And you make friends and that.

Speaker2: And that’s how [01:02:45] you, uh, that’s how you met led to.

Speaker1: That’s right. So you married in 2003, and, [01:02:50] uh, it’s still married together. And we have a daughter, Sienna. Uh, she [01:02:55] was born in 2012. We had a late child because of my job moving. And I [01:03:00] always wanted to be make sure I got to be available for them. So. Sienna is 12 years old [01:03:05] now. She’s studying in Oxford. Uh, in Scots in school. So. Yeah, [01:03:10] that’s my family.

Speaker2: And so, um, any challenges in terms of, [01:03:15] um, just in and amongst this, um, the work life balance side of things, being a husband, [01:03:20] being a father, um, balancing all of that, how how does that [01:03:25] play on you and how do you see that actually from from your perspective.

Speaker1: To be honest, [01:03:30] um, I for me, all the difficulties I’ve been through or all the struggle [01:03:35] I’ve been through or go through, the most difficult bit is the relationship, [01:03:40] particularly when you’re working this much, travelling this much, and, uh, all [01:03:45] these things and you even hide is very understanding. You know, I am almost away [01:03:50] every other week somewhere. Um, so she’s very understanding again. [01:03:55] Same thing I was trying telling you about the staff and me. Communication. That’s very [01:04:00] important, you know? Doesn’t matter. Work or a family life. That communication [01:04:05] is what’s going to keep you going. It’s. It’s not easy. I don’t want to sit [01:04:10] here and lie and say, oh, I like me. She’s amazing. I’m amazing. I have we all [01:04:15] have that struggle. But, um, it’s it’s but we’ve got she’s [01:04:20] understanding. I try to communicate as much I can and, uh, but [01:04:25] most importantly, my daughter now she’s 12 and she’s saying, daddy, you are out. Daddy, [01:04:30] why didn’t you do this? So when I’m at home and, uh, my phone will be taken [01:04:35] off from me and then be hidden somewhere by my daughter, so. That’s beautiful. Exactly. [01:04:40] He says keep the phone, keep it away. But we have good, good time together. We go holidays [01:04:45] quite a lot. Uh, at least six weeks. Seven weeks a year. I take time off [01:04:50] to be with the family. So trying my best, let me say.

Speaker2: Yeah, my [01:04:55] youngest is is very much like that. And, um, you know, always talking about [01:05:00] why do you work so hard, um, why are you working this weekend, all [01:05:05] these sort of questions. Right. The, the one question that hit me the [01:05:10] hardest because we went through this, I think I probably mentioned it on this show before. Right. Um, [01:05:15] which is we always go through this thing. Why do you work so hard? Yeah. [01:05:20] And part of it is, you know, try and describe it to them. That part and parcel of it is, is [01:05:25] for me, right. There’s no getting away from that. The challenge, the drive like [01:05:30] I am work and work is me, right. But take me away from work or work. There [01:05:35] is no Prav left. Right. Um, I truly believe that that is part of parcel [01:05:40] of who makes Prav or who makes me up. And I’m sure that’s the same for you, right? [01:05:45] But aside from that, it’s, um. Money [01:05:50] right there. Is that as well. Right. So that’s that’s the story [01:05:55] you tell your kids, right? It’s the story I tell my kids. And so my daughter, my daughter [01:06:00] once said to me, probably about a year ago now, said to me, this she goes. And bearing in mind my youngest, she’s [01:06:05] seven now. So when she was six, she said to me, daddy, um, can you stop working [01:06:10] until we’re poor again?

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker2: And that hit me [01:06:15] like a ton of bricks, right? Because it was a bit like, actually, this is why you’re working. I want you to [01:06:20] stop working till we run out of money. But while we’re running out of money, we [01:06:25] need to be with me. Exactly. That’s exactly. That’s the message. So. It’s [01:06:30] a constant back and forth. Right. So okay so in and amongst this you’re managing [01:06:35] work life balance. At what point did you say okay I [01:06:40] own one practice I own two practices. Um, you know I’ve had these jobs. Everything’s [01:06:45] going really well. I know I’m going to do I’m going to start teaching. How did that come [01:06:50] about?

Speaker1: Okay. Um, what happened from it comes from my [01:06:55] childhood days. Because, um, the education is always important. As my parents mentioned to you, I, [01:07:00] we talked about it. What happened when I started doing implants? [01:07:05] Uh, and I started coming across, uh, complications. Failures [01:07:10] of my own work. Of your own work. So, yeah, my own work. And then I didn’t know how to fix it. [01:07:15] And as I told you, I want to treat everyone as a family member. But if I can’t fix the problem [01:07:20] that that my ethos is completely going wrong. So I start like, exploring [01:07:25] the ways to learn to. Hence, I went to Tampa in Florida [01:07:30] to learn occlusion. Then I found, uh. So I should learn [01:07:35] a bit more about Implantology then. So I went to Germany. Prof. Cori. Uh, [01:07:40] in Augsburg, in Germany. I went there for four months. Every month [01:07:45] there are for three, four days of, uh, module. Each module went [01:07:50] and learned the techniques from the him, came back and I started [01:07:55] working on the technique for, uh, 4 or 5 years. Then still, there are some [01:08:00] more complications or things which I want to learn, which didn’t work in my hands. So then I [01:08:05] travelled to, uh, Budapest in Hungary is to an open six months [01:08:10] of training there. Every every time. But every time I [01:08:15] went there, I learned. Or whenever I start travelling to Europe, I always [01:08:20] found or heard that, oh, you’re from UK or England? The dentistry [01:08:25] is not as good as any part of the world or Europe or [01:08:30] America.

Speaker1: I start getting sick of hearing, hearing this, that we [01:08:35] are second to, uh, our neighbouring countries. So I [01:08:40] told myself, okay, I’m going to develop my skills and then I’m going to take these skills [01:08:45] back to my UK and then maybe share that and then start teaching. [01:08:50] So 20, 2014. Uh, I was thinking about it. Then [01:08:55] I finished my course with Estonia Open and he called me and said, Balaji, [01:09:00] I think you should run a course in in London. I thought he was joking [01:09:05] and I didn’t take it serious. So I went back for next year and said, oh, have you planned anything for the [01:09:10] course? I said, no, I said I was still at that point I was thinking, you know, he called me and said [01:09:15] you should because you got skills and you, why don’t you do it? [01:09:20] So. So every time I was travelling, I was thinking about it in the airport while I’m waiting in the airport [01:09:25] or whatever I was doing. I was thinking for the academy names, [01:09:30] different things, combination of different, uh, letters and that. So I came up [01:09:35] with Asha because, uh, Asha is like Indian name Hope, but it stands for, as you said, [01:09:40] Academy of Soft and Hard Tissue Augmentation. So this just came popped in [01:09:45] my head like a, you know, like a bulb moment. So that’s how I started [01:09:50] the, uh, academy in 2017. I started actually. Yeah.

Speaker2: Just. [01:09:55] Wow. And so tell me about the first course you ran. How did that go? The [01:10:00] first course. How many delegates?

Speaker1: Uh, when I started my first course, I. Okay. [01:10:05] That’s another story. Nobody wanted to know me, particularly the companies. None of the companies were supportive [01:10:10] because I’m new. New to the blog. Who is this guy who’s coming and talking about these techniques? Who [01:10:15] nobody does in in UK? So everywhere I went they [01:10:20] just no, no no no. So then one of the company [01:10:25] said, okay, we’ll do it for you. And this is a similar story. History with [01:10:30] the sort of thing. So I said okay. They said they’ll organise it and [01:10:35] then they start organising it. So advertised it. So I had only two people [01:10:40] booked in at that point. So month before the course the company [01:10:45] withdrew the support. They said look, you’ve got only two guys booked in, we can’t support you. [01:10:50] So they took over the whole thing off. But they, uh, reserved the [01:10:55] uh, venue in near Cheltenham in Gloucestershire. So they said, [01:11:00] okay, you pay the deposit. They are not giving the money back. So either you run the course [01:11:05] or you do whatever you want. So then I rang all my friends [01:11:10] who I knew and they said, look guys, you come free, you come free. If you want to pay me a little bit of [01:11:15] money for this fine half price, whatever, just want to get somebody. So we had a few. [01:11:20]

Speaker2: Mates, mainly your mates in two, two paying people.

Speaker1: Two paying people that [01:11:25] are still mates. So in total I had eight people in the first course. So that’s [01:11:30] how we started. But I had yeah, that’s my first course. Then, [01:11:35] uh, yeah. Now we are. We are now. Yeah.

Speaker2: So you run that course. [01:11:40] You’ve got two paying people, six of your friends who’ve come on for [01:11:45] something or nothing. Whatever. Figured it out between you, between yourselves. [01:11:50] Then. Then what happens next? And how have you got to the point where you’re running this academy? And [01:11:55] tell me about the courses that you run today. What you’re actually teaching. What what’s [01:12:00] your thing? You know, are they coming in to see you to learn about how to place implants? [01:12:05] Is it beginners? Is it advanced level? Is it everything in between? What is it that you’re actually [01:12:10] teaching today, and how did you go from the once again, two people [01:12:15] on the course, just my mates to where you are today. Yeah.

Speaker1: So. Right. My [01:12:20] course is basically as names two stands for I did a bit of market research in. [01:12:25] We have so many basic implant calls to place implants, how to place implants. [01:12:30] And that’s what I learned from, uh, Tatum. [01:12:35] And then my journey was like, after that, what’s going to do? What’s going [01:12:40] to happen? So that bit was the one we were like, uh, I found that in [01:12:45] here. We don’t didn’t do much. So all this course I did with Germany and Budapest, [01:12:50] and now I’m studying in Italy with Professor Zuccoli. All this knowledge as I’m [01:12:55] combining the different techniques and different skills in my course teaching [01:13:00] people, like I would say it’s a moderate to advanced course. It’s not for [01:13:05] a big beginners. If somebody has placed implant like let’s say 30, 40 implants or [01:13:10] 50 implants, then they want to take their skills to the next level to get it predictable [01:13:15] results. It’s not placing implants in my opinion. You know, we all can do implants, [01:13:20] but how predictable the results going to be. So my [01:13:25] aim is to if I place the implants like any work, it should last minimum ten [01:13:30] years. If it doesn’t last minimum ten years. So that sort of thing. So you’re talking about bone [01:13:35] grafting around it. You’re talking about soft tissue grafting around it. So my course is purely [01:13:40] with the bone and soft tissue graft are all implants from moderate to [01:13:45] severe these days I’m more busy not only from patients [01:13:50] from Buckingham. I get patients from all over the country, plus I get patients from Germany and [01:13:55] and, uh, few places as well referred to us because [01:14:00] the more and more patients I’m seeing now is patients who had implants placed or who had failures. [01:14:05] So we are treating them to gain more bone, more soft [01:14:10] tissue and redo the implant surgery, that sort of thing. So, so yeah. [01:14:15]

Speaker2: So in terms of the failures, um. These [01:14:20] implants that have been placed that shouldn’t have been placed because there wasn’t enough bone? Or [01:14:25] are these ones that have just naturally just, just just failed over a long [01:14:30] period of time? All the stuff that basically was too advanced to [01:14:35] have been done by whoever did it, and now they’ve come to you to fix that. And how much [01:14:40] of your time are you spending fixing other people’s stuff versus doing your own stuff from the beginning? [01:14:45]

Speaker1: 60% of my patients are fixing other people’s stuff now, [01:14:50] currently. 40% is my own stuff from my patients [01:14:55] base and the two practices and the local area. The reason because the failure [01:15:00] happens is implants are made, are meant to fail. It’s not given [01:15:05] by God. If you believe in that nature, it’s man made material. Every man [01:15:10] made material does fail. That’s when it’s going to fail. Is the question now [01:15:15] or in ten years time or 20 years time? Okay, so what as a human we can do [01:15:20] is to just, you know, prolong and get it, give them a longer time period. [01:15:25]

Speaker2: Understood? Yeah. And so what? What [01:15:30] is going to make an implant less. Longer?

Speaker1: A [01:15:35] diagnosis from start beginning. You know, like you said, does the patient implant [01:15:40] or does if you’re doing implants, what why need it and diagnosing the right [01:15:45] patient and right treatment plan then placing implants. This comes lost. [01:15:50] Then you need to know what where we are placing does. The implant is going to surrounded by [01:15:55] bone which is very important. And then when you have a bone you [01:16:00] need to have a good keratinised mucosa, thick keratinised mucosa around the crown [01:16:05] of the implant. Otherwise it’s like, you know, it’s like a periodontitis. You get implantitis once [01:16:10] you get the inflammation around the collar of the implant, if you don’t have more [01:16:15] than two millimetres of thick mucosa, then it reaches to the bone and the bone crest goes down. [01:16:20] And once the bone crest goes down, the implant exposed, then it’s a failure. So [01:16:25] that’s the basic of it, uh, giving a good base for [01:16:30] the implant and bone and a soft tissue around it, which prolongs the life, basically. [01:16:35]

Speaker2: So you spend a lot of your time fixing [01:16:40] other people’s failures? Yeah. Um, most of the time, yes. What would you say your biggest [01:16:45] clinical mistake has been to date? If you can pick one [01:16:50] big mistake that you made where either when you were in the mouth or afterwards [01:16:55] where you thought, shit, I shouldn’t have done that, or I could have done [01:17:00] this better or whatever. When did that happen in your career and what was the story? [01:17:05]

Speaker1: There are several, uh, mistakes still happens that, uh, the mistakes [01:17:10] always just happened. Complications happens to everyone. And for me, in my life, [01:17:15] even now, I get complications. And if I say I don’t get complications or failure, I’m lying [01:17:20] to you. Sitting here, my biggest one was the, uh. Then they start beginning [01:17:25] of the implant career. I, uh, doing implants. And the lady I still [01:17:30] remember, uh, had a full mouth implant based placement, which I did. [01:17:35] Everything was fine. But my manage her expectations, patients [01:17:40] expectations was too high, which I didn’t understand that. So I was doing [01:17:45] thinking, oh, I’m going to do it. I’ll do this implant. I’ll give her teeth. But I didn’t manage [01:17:50] the patient expectation, which means I didn’t communicate again, back to the same thing [01:17:55] of the patient. And I didn’t understand what patient wanted, but I gave whatever I thought was [01:18:00] right. But I was, uh, lost sleep over that for a long time because [01:18:05] I was sued for that. I had to give the money back and all those things. Yet [01:18:10] that was my one of the biggest mistake and a learning curve, I would say.

Speaker2: But [01:18:15] what actually happened? What did it failed or.

Speaker1: No, clinically it was [01:18:20] fine. Implant placement was fine. Uh, the bridge was fine, but the [01:18:25] patient didn’t like anything I did. Aesthetically, aesthetically, [01:18:30] and because she had a functional spine, [01:18:35] the, the the pink porcelain was there and she didn’t like the pink porcelain [01:18:40] or I didn’t want to have any of those. I want to have natural looking teeth, you know, all these things [01:18:45] and, um, so many things and just, just. And then that was the [01:18:50] mistake. I, I would say I made without not understanding what patient wanted [01:18:55] their expectations.

Speaker2: Yeah.

Speaker1: Expectations. That’s right. Yeah. That’s what the only thing [01:19:00] I can. But there are some surgical failures happen. But I thank goodness I know now how to fix [01:19:05] it if it happens. Uh, so I don’t really worry about [01:19:10] it. So I go back and do it again for them most of the time. So [01:19:15] which was okay.

Speaker2: And, um, in the delegates [01:19:20] that you have taught over the years, right. Those ones who come to you, they’re pretty [01:19:25] far. Well, I shouldn’t say far along in their implant career, but you said they you know, they’ve got to be at [01:19:30] the stage where they’ve they’ve stuck in, you know, 50, 60 implants or whatever there or thereabouts to then [01:19:35] take advantage of what you’re going to teach them. Mhm. Um. Can [01:19:40] you spot the the winners? Can you spot the [01:19:45] the ones who are really, really good clinically, [01:19:50] surgically? And what is that thing? If you were to bottle it up and say, [01:19:55] this person is a great surgeon, right? Whether it’s the bone, [01:20:00] the soft tissue, the implant placement, whatever it is, if you were to bottle up those ingredients into a formula, [01:20:05] what would that be? Being a teacher, are they certain things that you can spot [01:20:10] that straight away. You see a student, you meet them. You talk to them before [01:20:15] even seeing what they do with their hands, you know? Yeah, this person’s definitely the guy, right? I [01:20:20] can do that with Tecos. Right. So I can have a five minute conversation with a TCO. [01:20:25] Doesn’t have to be without about a patient. And I know this. This one can convert like crazy, [01:20:30] right? What’s your equivalent of that in the implant soft tissue bone [01:20:35] world.

Speaker1: Like I said skills is secondary because I don’t see them the skills when they come [01:20:40] in. But the way the approach of that person who is with me and, uh, they [01:20:45] are happy to accept what they’ve done wrong and then they happy to they [01:20:50] are there to learn. And then when they are there and I can see them [01:20:55] asking the way, the question they ask me, the way they admit that, oh, okay, I’ve been doing this for years. [01:21:00] I’m going to change it. Or like they are open mindedly saying, okay, I’m going to try [01:21:05] this technique. Rather than sit. I get delegates sitting there and say, oh, I do [01:21:10] this, why should I change? And this is not a light way of telling. [01:21:15] I have been doing this has been working. I said, look, every technique works as long as you [01:21:20] do it right. So the delegates who come to the, uh, college comes to the [01:21:25] courses. I. Now, what I do is to say that in every [01:21:30] module I pick 1 or 2 the best ones, and [01:21:35] I train them personally. I go to their practice and they come to me, so I add them [01:21:40] as my faculty member in the Asha. So it’s just not me. So [01:21:45] I want others to be there. So so far we have three faculty members [01:21:50] since I started the course, so I train them to the level I feel they’re comfortable [01:21:55] so they can go and do things for others teach, teach. [01:22:00]

Speaker2: Mentor.

Speaker1: That sort of thing. Yes, yes, that’s the way [01:22:05] we do in Asha, because I don’t want to be just me, me, me, me. It’s not that [01:22:10] we want to have a group of clinicians who can go the country and expand [01:22:15] their skills and teach them. Yeah.

Speaker2: So do you spend much of your time travelling around and operating in other [01:22:20] people’s practices now or.

Speaker1: Yeah. Well, again, another, uh, thing we [01:22:25] have in Asha, uh, Academy is because the skills are the which we [01:22:30] are teaching. It’s not two day or four day learning, uh, techniques. It’s a [01:22:35] really advanced technique we use. So I can another thing from my own [01:22:40] story. I went to Germany and I went to, uh, Budapest. Every time [01:22:45] I came back to the UK and start looking at the patient, I don’t know what I’m going to do because [01:22:50] it’s nobody there to hold your hand. So what we did my [01:22:55] I met a good friend from Germany. So we told each other, look, I [01:23:00] come to Germany. When you’re operating, don’t pay me anything. I’ll just come. I’ll help you. You come to [01:23:05] UK when I upgrade. So we just. What we did for nearly a year. He came every time. Flew to [01:23:10] the UK. I went to Germany. We worked together. Every single cases. So [01:23:15] what we do now in Asia is to. We committed to this. Whoever attends [01:23:20] the course, we go and mentor them in their practice first. [01:23:25] Like, you know, they can call me. We charge them a nominal fees. Nothing [01:23:30] like major fixed cost will come to your practice. We’ll do [01:23:35] you mentoring as long as you need us. Your, uh, our help until you feel comfortable [01:23:40] to do it yourself.

Speaker2: So. So if I’m a delegate and I invest in your course. [01:23:45] Yeah. And I come on your. How many days is your course?

Speaker1: Uh, four days. [01:23:50] Two. Two modules. Two, two days. Okay, so I come in.

Speaker2: So I invest [01:23:55] in your course. I do four days with you, and then [01:24:00] I want you in my practice to help me and mentor me. You will [01:24:05] do that.

Speaker1: That’s what we do. That’s our commitment to committed to every single delegates [01:24:10] in our group.

Speaker2: And is there enough of you to go around to do that for all your delegates? [01:24:15] No.

Speaker1: That’s why I’m starting this faculty. You mean like the faculty members now? [01:24:20] So it’s. I can’t do my way everywhere. So what I would do is, like, the other [01:24:25] three faculty members can go and do that.

Speaker2: Understood? Understood. So they they [01:24:30] go and do the the equivalent of. Now answer me this, answer me this. [01:24:35] If I came on your course, I’m not interested in the other three I want you. Right? [01:24:40] Yeah. Just like. Yes. Just like your patients want the principal dentists, right? [01:24:45] And you say, hey, go and see my associate. He’s better at crowns or whatever. Right. But I’m [01:24:50] coming on your course. You’re the founder of the Asha course, right? You’ve been doing it for years. I don’t want [01:24:55] the other three guys don’t care how good they are, I want you. Do you have that problem?

Speaker1: I, [01:25:00] I do, yes, I do, but I that at the moment. Yes, uh, I do, but [01:25:05] I do go there if I have to. But they have to wait if patient happy to wait until I get [01:25:10] free time to go, then I do, I do travel a lot for in that case, yes.

Speaker2: Okay. But then [01:25:15] if they wanted to be seen sooner, then one of your colleagues, um, could go and see them and [01:25:20] they could equally support them and do as just as good a job.

Speaker1: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker2: Yeah. [01:25:25] Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. Um, but, um, I’ve [01:25:30] got a few final questions to ask you now. Um, and, [01:25:35] um, the, the first one is, um, imagine, you know, we’ve come to [01:25:40] actually, before I go there, before I go there, I’ve got one more question, which [01:25:45] is, um, where are you going with all of this? The the academy, [01:25:50] the clinic. Um, what’s what’s your overall ambition? Where do you want to [01:25:55] take this all? Is is it is it you want to grow the clinic and do more of that? Are you or [01:26:00] just keep that where it is? And do you want to grow the academy or you’re just happy just trucking [01:26:05] along in that lane, doing what you’re doing now? Is there a is there a [01:26:10] vision beyond what you’re doing right now?

Speaker1: Right. Yeah, there’s a project. [01:26:15] I mean, it just started, uh, in, uh, last year and, uh, we [01:26:20] purchased a big building in Buckingham, which is 5500ft². It’s [01:26:25] two, uh, two storey building. So next project will be we are moving [01:26:30] both practices into that building, ground floor. And on the top floor will be the teaching, [01:26:35] uh, Academy, where we’re going to be a live surgery and the teaching [01:26:40] everything there. So that’s amazing project.

Speaker2: And so you’ve got the building, you’ve secured [01:26:45] the building.

Speaker1: Secure the building. And now waiting for the bank to say yes for that next [01:26:50] stage. Okay. Right.

Speaker2: Okay. Brilliant. So, so [01:26:55] so then I guess teaching everything will all be in one place from that. From one place. [01:27:00]

Speaker1: Yeah. Yes. That’s right. Because one thing lacking in my academy is the live [01:27:05] surgery. Even though I videoed almost every single surgery and [01:27:10] everybody gets the video of the cases so they can watch in their own, uh, place, [01:27:15] practice wherever they want to, but lives, lives, lives different. So that’s the one thing [01:27:20] I wanted to do. So hopefully by next end of next year, we should have that.

Speaker2: That’s [01:27:25] beautiful. That’s awesome. And so you’re gonna you’re gonna. But this, this time, you’ll [01:27:30] be able to relocate the goodwill without any problems. Right? Exactly.

Speaker1: Hopefully, I find the right [01:27:35] builder who doesn’t run away.

Speaker2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s hope that your past experiences have [01:27:40] shaped that now. So, um. That’s right. Yeah. Brilliant. Um, so [01:27:45] for the last couple of questions, Balaji. And one of them relates to, um, just [01:27:50] sort of some advice, really imagine it was your last day on the planet and, [01:27:55] um, you know, you had your little one next to you. Um. [01:28:00] What three pieces of wisdom would you leave her?

Speaker1: Okay. [01:28:05] Uh, the first thing I would say is be [01:28:10] nice to people. Right. That’s the most important thing. Any human being. [01:28:15] Second thing is, don’t stop learning. And [01:28:20] most important thing I tell my daughter is, even now, every day, [01:28:25] she’s bored of it. Now. Never give up. Never, ever give up. [01:28:30] And, uh, that’s, uh, every day I say that to her so that the 2 or 3 things [01:28:35] will be nice to people. Never stop learning and never give up. Those are three things. Wonderful. [01:28:40]

Speaker2: And then final question. Fantasy dinner party. Three people are invited. [01:28:45] Dead or alive, who would they be?

Speaker1: She’s got to be three. Okay, three. Right. [01:28:50] Uh, I would say, um, the [01:28:55] Microsoft CEO, Sundar Pichai, uh, is the [01:29:00] because he got a similar background like me, where he comes from, similar language, we speak similar same language. [01:29:05] And then I’m sure he struggled a lot to where he is now. So [01:29:10] in the table, I would like to pick his brain and maybe share him. And hopefully he [01:29:15] share his experience with me. Yeah. And then uh, second one I would [01:29:20] say, um, Michael Palin, he’s the journalist [01:29:25] and comedian and actor. Yeah. And I love travelling. So and [01:29:30] I love the way he presents, the way he is as very simple man. And [01:29:35] then that’s what I would like to have us sing. And the final one, [01:29:40] maybe the first one could be. Is that David Attenborough? He’s, [01:29:45] uh. Yeah. He’s amazing, amazing human being. And, uh, that’s the [01:29:50] other person which I would like to have. Uh, these people. Definitely. [01:29:55] I would like to have them.

Speaker2: Trip. Baloji. Thank you for your time. Um. [01:30:00] This evening. Welcome. Um, for those of you who can’t see, can’t see you, you’re sat there [01:30:05] in a cold room in your coat. Um, for the for [01:30:10] this podcast. Um, because. Because you live in the middle of nowhere. So getting internet connection, [01:30:15] you said, is pretty tricky. So thanks for staying behind. Um, really, [01:30:20] really appreciate it. And thanks for your time today.

Speaker1: Thank thank you very much. It has been [01:30:25] a fantastic talking to you.

Speaker3: This is Dental [01:30:30] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:30:35] in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:30:40] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker2: Thanks for listening, [01:30:45] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:30:50] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our [01:30:55] guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker4: If you did get some value out [01:31:00] of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who [01:31:05] you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker2: And don’t forget [01:31:10] our six star rating.

Speaker1: I very much view breathwork as sort of the the thing I teach [00:00:05] and the thing I talk about, but actually let’s, you know, I work with a 1 to 1 client. I’m talking [00:00:10] to them about their mindset, their past, their childhood. I’m talking to [00:00:15] them about mainly we’re talking through the lens of the nervous system. So that’s I would view [00:00:20] the work as really working with the nervous system, which is where ice baths start to come in, where other practices start to [00:00:25] come in, and the concept of rest, the concept of resilience, all of this stuff, it’s sort of breath [00:00:30] as a gateway into a much broader conversation around the nervous system.

Speaker2: This [00:00:35] is mind movers. Moving [00:00:40] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:00:45] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman [00:00:50] Langroudi.

Speaker3: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Mind [00:00:55] Movers. Today we have a very good friend of mine, Jamie Clements. Jamie Clements, if [00:01:00] you haven’t heard of him, where have you been? Because he has owned the breathwork space. He [00:01:05] is the CEO and founder of The Breath Space. He is [00:01:10] somebody that integrates breathwork into daily life, daily practice, and also works [00:01:15] with altered states of consciousness, creating a better life for people. I [00:01:20] met Jamie on a retreat. I had one on one sessions with him as well. He also used enlighten and loved [00:01:25] it. Excellent. And Jamie has really inspired [00:01:30] me in my own practice. But thinking about breathwork and dentistry, which we’re [00:01:35] going to cover as well, but in a very we’re going to go off piece today [00:01:40] and we’re going to do a guided breathwork session together. So for anyone that hasn’t tried this, [00:01:45] I really encourage you to join in on us. Try not to breathe too heavily Payman, because I don’t [00:01:50] know what he’s going to be like with this. So Jamie’s going to guide us through a couple of minutes of breathwork, and then we’re going to get into [00:01:55] it.

Speaker1: Yeah. Thank you. Ronan. Thank you for having me. It’s, uh. Yeah, it’s a pleasure to be here. And [00:02:00] as you said, I was, uh, actually on a podcast a couple of weeks ago where we did this, and it just [00:02:05] changed the trajectory of the conversation. I sort of arrived to that recording a little bit frantic, [00:02:10] a little bit hectic going. I just need a moment to centre. And we did literally two minutes of breathwork, [00:02:15] which was almost a perfect window into the power of this work as well, because it only [00:02:20] takes we’re seeing more and more in the research now a matter of five [00:02:25] breaths, ten breaths, 20 breaths to really create quite a profound shift in in state. [00:02:30] So for anybody listening and for you guys here with me now, um, I just invite you to find [00:02:35] a comfortable position sitting down and then when, if you if you feel comfortable doing so, just gently [00:02:40] closing the eyes. You can do this with your eyes open. But I’d encourage you to close down your eyes. So just take a moment [00:02:45] to close your eyes here. Notice what you’re feeling, notice how [00:02:50] you’re feeling. But most importantly here, notice how you’re breathing. Is [00:02:55] the breath fast or slow? Is it deep or is it shallow? [00:03:00] Is it through the nose? Is it through the mouth? Just starting to tune in [00:03:05] to your natural. Habitual breathing pattern. [00:03:10] And we’re just going to move through two very simple techniques that are designed to [00:03:15] calm, balance and down regulate the nervous system. The first is going to be a physiological [00:03:20] sigh, which is going to be a deep inhale through the nose, followed by a second [00:03:25] smaller inhale again through the nose and then a sigh out of the mouth.

Speaker1: We’ll [00:03:30] take two more like that deeply in through the nose. And [00:03:35] again and sigh out once [00:03:40] more deeply in and again and [00:03:45] sigh out. And then our second technique is going to be an extended exhale breath. [00:03:50] When we make our Excel longer than our inhale, we lower the heart rate. We shift ourselves into [00:03:55] this lovely parasympathetic rest and digest state. So this is just going to be, to your own count, [00:04:00] a deep, gentle breath in through the nose. And then we’re going to blow the exhale slowly and gently [00:04:05] back out through the mouth, through pursed lips like you’re blowing through a small straw. So we’ll take five of those [00:04:10] in your own time, taking a nice slow, steady breath in through the nose and [00:04:15] then blowing that exhale out softly and gently. Again, [00:04:25] breathing in through the nose. And extending that breath out through [00:04:30] the mouth. Go [00:04:35] ahead and we’ll take three more like that deeply, slowly in extending [00:04:40] that breath out. The [00:04:45] last two. Allow yourself to relax fully, deeply, [00:04:50] in and softly extending that outbreath, allowing [00:04:55] the whole body to soften. Allow the shoulders [00:05:00] to relax as we move into one final cycle of that breath. Extending [00:05:05] that outbreath, allowing that sense of calm, of relaxation [00:05:10] to wash over your whole body here. And then just allow the breath to come back to gently [00:05:15] flowing in and out of the nose. Take a moment just to pause to check in before [00:05:20] you start to bring some small, gentle movements back into the body. And whenever you’re [00:05:25] ready, you can blink. Open your eyes.

Speaker3: So good. [00:05:30]

Speaker1: Send everybody to sleep before the podcast starts.

Speaker3: I know such a simple thing, right? But [00:05:35] it’s. I think it’s. Jamie. I have to tell you. Like, you know me. Like I know people that are top of their game who [00:05:40] just said to me in the kitchen, if anyone was average, would you be friends with them? I was like, Payman, that’s not [00:05:45] true because he’s so impressed with the people, I would listen, I hang out with [00:05:50] winners and I’m joking, you know?

Speaker1: Hey, look, there’s you know, I always say, you know, we [00:05:55] have different people in our lives for different reasons, but there is certainly something to the company [00:06:00] you keep and and where that takes you in your life. Yeah. You know, I don’t think I actually heard [00:06:05] an amazing thing yesterday that was saying we often hear it’s, you know, your life. It’s the sum of the five [00:06:10] people that you spend the most time with. And the person was actually saying, it’s not quite that. It’s that you sink to [00:06:15] the standards of the lowest common denominator of the people you spend the most time with. And [00:06:20] so that’s where, and this is where the nervous system, I don’t want to dive in too deep, too early, but our [00:06:25] nervous systems are constantly in dialogue. And the people that regulate you, the people that elevate you, they’ll [00:06:30] be working with your nervous system in a certain way. And the people that keep you stuck, keep you limited, keep you dysregulated [00:06:35] will also have a set way in the nervous system that they’re working with. So there’s [00:06:40] there’s method to the madness and method to the company that we keep for sure.

Speaker4: So have you fired friends? [00:06:45]

Speaker1: Have I fired friends? I would say friendships have developed. Some have come, [00:06:50] some have gone. I would say the friends that I’ve made in the last five [00:06:55] years. Um. Are different, not for better or for [00:07:00] worse than the friends that I made previously. I think there are friends that come from a place of longevity, from having known me for a long [00:07:05] time, who, um, I’m still close with, but perhaps in a slightly different way to [00:07:10] how we were previously. And then I think there are people that I’ve met in the last few years where I have [00:07:15] been more open in myself and more regulated in myself, who mirror that. Um, [00:07:20] so yeah, I think it’s never been about cutting people out, but certainly [00:07:25] watching how I’ve developed and how the relationships have developed within that, I.

Speaker3: Think there’s a really [00:07:30] amazing podcast. I’m sure you guys have seen her. She’s Middle Eastern and she’s got like tattoos and [00:07:35] hat and she’s like an amazing motivational speaker. She actually works in tech. And she basically a [00:07:40] video that she did went viral because she basically said, you know, people have come and gone, but when people [00:07:45] have got rid of themselves, it feels so good because it’s like a detox. And she said, your brain is like tofu. [00:07:50] Be careful what you marinate in, you know. And you know, I love.

Speaker4: That you fired friends. [00:07:55]

Speaker3: I find it really difficult. I think over time I’ve naturally drifted [00:08:00] from people because they’ve not served the purpose in my life. But I think London is [00:08:05] a very complex place because I’m constantly living in dichotomy, because the identity that [00:08:10] I have built within London means that I naturally attract a certain type of person or [00:08:15] clientele, which doesn’t necessarily align with my true authentic self. I’ve been lucky [00:08:20] enough that when I spent time with Jamie, I’m actually my true authentic self. We’ve met on retreats, [00:08:25] um, and that space is when I’m my most vulnerable and when I feel most safest because the people [00:08:30] around me feel safe. Where I would argue that some of the people in London, not for bad reasons. [00:08:35] I’m more in survival mode more than, you know, being at my most relaxed state. Jamie, [00:08:40] let’s talk a little about your journey. So we always like to start from the beginning. I know that when I met you, I was [00:08:45] really surprised to hear that you worked in tech. Tech is one of these jobs. That’s super glamorised. It is. You know, [00:08:50] the sort of new, like, city banking job as it was, like in the 90s and 80. [00:08:55] You know, everyone wants to be in tech. It’s the place to be. But you told me it made you really miserable, affected your mental health [00:09:00] and then led you to breathwork. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. So I [00:09:05] always kind of, at this point when I speak about my story, say that I had a relatively [00:09:10] by the book kind of upbringing, middle class, very fortunate to not have [00:09:15] had too many challenges financially from that perspective growing up. And I’m very grateful for that. But, [00:09:20] um, around the age of 15, um, well, I was 15, [00:09:25] my parents got divorced, and I don’t put blame on them for that because everyone [00:09:30] needs needs to do what they need to need to do to to move on with their lives. But it definitely at [00:09:35] that point in my life that was so formative, I did have a significant impact on me. And through my [00:09:40] late teens around that time and through my early 20s, I definitely went inwards. I definitely [00:09:45] withdrew, I definitely lost elements of myself. Um, there was a [00:09:50] an anxiety really, that took hold and a level [00:09:55] of unease that took hold. I really unknowingly, because I had [00:10:00] friends, I was high functioning. I was achieving at school, I was playing very high level of [00:10:05] sport at that time as well. I was functioning, but under the surface I think I was very uneasy [00:10:10] and very unhappy. And that went on then into my early 20s through university. [00:10:15] Um, and then at around the age of 24, I was in a very [00:10:20] kind of bleak place. I suffered with anxiety throughout that whole sort of ten year period and [00:10:25] depression as a result of that anxiety.

Speaker1: And a lot of that, I think, stemmed from a place of, [00:10:30] um, post my parents divorce, feeling like I needed to [00:10:35] fit in, to be accepted ultimately above that, to be loved [00:10:40] and to be kind of desired in, in a way. Um, and so I went down a [00:10:45] path that I thought would get me that. So it wasn’t necessarily you talked [00:10:50] about authenticity, and I always come back to that now in my life today, how can I show up [00:10:55] as my most authentic self and what environments empower that? But through that period of my late teens, [00:11:00] early 20s, I was studying a subject that I thought would get me the job that I thought would [00:11:05] get me the money that I thought would get me the approval. So I studied economics. I went to a very good university, [00:11:10] got a degree, thought I wanted to work in finance, did internships in investment banking, hated [00:11:15] it, hated it, knew it wasn’t me right from the get go. Um, and so I sort of. At [00:11:20] that point as well. I felt very uneducated, not from a academic perspective, [00:11:25] but from a perspective of knowing what was out there. I didn’t know enough about the world. I had a very narrow view, [00:11:30] and simply because of where I’d grown up, what I’d done up until that point, and what everyone else was doing [00:11:35] around me. And so I was like, I’m going to, you know, take, [00:11:40] take a slightly different path.

Speaker1: That was so. Undramatically [00:11:45] different. I went and worked in fintech. I worked in financial technology instead of finance and thought I was doing [00:11:50] something really out there and outlandish and how how rogue of me to go and [00:11:55] work in tech Start-Ups instead of an investment bank. And I had some jobs that I really [00:12:00] loved genuinely, and I don’t actually look back and think that there was anything wrong with the work itself. [00:12:05] It just wasn’t me. And I was so lost, and I was continuously losing myself, [00:12:10] trying to find myself through fitting in. And then at the age of 24, [00:12:15] hit a particular rock bottom, was suffering and struggling with suicidal ideation, with deep depression [00:12:20] and panic attacks that were debilitating, um, on a near daily [00:12:25] basis. And that led me to get help. Now, breathwork was a part of [00:12:30] that and a very, very big part of that. But that was made up of a number of things therapy, meditation, [00:12:35] yoga, exercise came back into my life in a major way. But breathwork for me was the [00:12:40] the linchpin. It was the key that unlocked a lot of things for me, particularly [00:12:45] with my anxiety. I think that I put a huge amount of weighting on breathwork as a part [00:12:50] of that that process, and continues to be something that supports me to this day.

Speaker3: Who introduced you [00:12:55] to the breathwork?

Speaker1: Um, friend of mine called Christine, who is now actually a business partner [00:13:00] of mine in a different business. Oh, wow.

Speaker3: Um, no. Anglemyer. No. I wish life. [00:13:05]

Speaker1: Would be very different if you were a friend of mine. Um, so Christine is [00:13:10] founder of a business called The Move Method. We’ve got a studio over in Fulham, and he [00:13:15] had a former studio, and I was a member of this studio. And, um, he had a fairly similar background [00:13:20] to me. He was a professional rugby player. Um, and we’ve always had quite a lot in common. And [00:13:25] I was training at the studio, I was practising at the studio, and he, he sort of just nudged me in the direction [00:13:30] of breathwork. And I was resistant, I was reluctant, I was hesitant, it wasn’t. I wasn’t open to it. I wasn’t [00:13:35] open to much beyond a bit of talk therapy and a bit of exercise, maybe a bit of yoga. [00:13:40] Um, it just seemed too out there for me to. I was too sceptical. [00:13:45] Sure. Um, and it was sort of a gentle nudge in that direction. And then eventually I [00:13:50] kind of bit the bullet and decided to to see what it was all about and haven’t really looked back since.

Speaker3: Amazing. [00:13:55] That’s so, so, so amazing. And so tell us then [00:14:00] how you made the leap. So from this kind of very corporate job into then becoming the [00:14:05] CEO, founder of the Breast Space, like, how did you make that leap in that transition?

Speaker1: On [00:14:10] reflection, I can’t remember my life being any different, and I don’t [00:14:15] actually remember at any point feeling like I was making a big leap. It almost felt like [00:14:20] a it was a pull. Like I cannot see my life having played out any other way, to be totally [00:14:25] honest with you. Um, so I was working at a, um, digital transformation [00:14:30] consultancy at the time for, for the financial services, um, ticking along, I was coasting, [00:14:35] um, and. I started training in breathwork. This was about [00:14:40] six years ago, um, sort of five years ago now. And, um, I’d spent [00:14:45] a couple of years exploring breathwork, everything that it had to offer and really finding my way [00:14:50] with it in my personal practice. And I have one particular, uh, transformative experience with [00:14:55] breathwork that I left just going, I want to see how I might be able to share this with other people. [00:15:00] And that was where it began, was just a desire to gift what I’d [00:15:05] received from it as a practice to other people. And, um, so I started [00:15:10] training. I started immersing myself in it. I’ve always had a fascination with human nature and psychology, and [00:15:15] so I started piecing together. I was like, oh, this is actually where [00:15:20] I should have been all along, actually, in terms of learning, in terms of education, in terms of what I was looking to [00:15:25] get from my life, from quite a natural, authentic place, it all started to make a lot more sense [00:15:30] and so started training, started doing certifications, qualifications and started [00:15:35] the business at the beginning of end of 2019, start of 2020. [00:15:40]

Speaker1: And um, obviously we were about to dip into Covid at [00:15:45] that point and I was still working full time, and so I was running the two alongside each other and really, [00:15:50] um, taking quite a lot of what I’d learned from small start up businesses, entrepreneurial [00:15:55] people to actually go, is there a business here? Is there actually something here [00:16:00] that could not even necessarily at that point, I was particularly concerned about making a life for myself [00:16:05] from it. But is there actually does this have legs? Can I actually turn what feels right now [00:16:10] like a passion and a passion project into something a little bit more serious, something a little bit more legitimate? [00:16:15] And that really was the beginning. And then I left my last full time job [00:16:20] in at the beginning of 2021. So I spent about a year and a half, um, [00:16:25] building the business alongside, um, what I was doing full time, um, through Covid and [00:16:30] then left the last full time job in the beginning of 2021 and went out to to kind [00:16:35] of continue building the breath space and make it what it is today.

Speaker3: Amazing.

Speaker4: Also, the business model. [00:16:40]

Speaker1: Yeah, varied. And uh, developing, [00:16:45] I would say. So I think this year has been particularly interesting for me, um, because [00:16:50] I felt a real pull and a real desire to build the brand [00:16:55] as a brand in of itself. Whereas the three, four years [00:17:00] prior that, I’d been very much building Jamie Clements breathwork coach individual. [00:17:05] And actually in the last six months, it’s become very apparent that this is here to be more [00:17:10] than that. And actually, for me, in terms of what I know I want for my life longer time, I have no interest in [00:17:15] always being the face of it by any means. I that’s the goal. I’m an introvert. I [00:17:20] love working with people. I love teaching and educating, but I, [00:17:25] um, need days to recoup and recover afterwards. So for me, [00:17:30] this is actually about, um. Becoming almost [00:17:35] a mouthpiece for breathwork and sharing that that work in whatever form that takes. The business model [00:17:40] at the moment is a pretty much a split down the middle of in person and online. So I work privately 1 to [00:17:45] 1. I work with businesses and corporates. I work with, um, high profile [00:17:50] individuals, particularly from a from a private practice perspective. Um, and then also group [00:17:55] workshops, retreats and that side of things from an in person point of view. I then have online [00:18:00] courses and online membership, a real digital presence. I work with apps. Um, and [00:18:05] then increasingly I’m finding myself working in a consultancy, um, kind [00:18:10] of capacity, working with different businesses to help them integrate wellbeing and breathwork [00:18:15] into what they do. So hotels being a great example, all looking to kind of ride this wave [00:18:20] of hospitality and wellness merging. Um, so spending a lot of time actually [00:18:25] sharing how and what they should be doing when it comes to integrating breathwork as well. [00:18:30] So it’s sort of started very broad and it’s gradually getting a little bit narrower. Um, and [00:18:35] this year is very much about building the brand as a brand and the business scaling ultimately. [00:18:40]

Speaker3: Jamie, for those people that don’t know, can you explain in layman’s terms [00:18:45] what breathwork actually is because people will be like, is it just me huffing and puffing? What’s the science [00:18:50] behind it? And is there a particular method that you have created for yourself?

Speaker1: For sure. [00:18:55] So, um, it’s the question because I think, you know, these conversations, [00:19:00] there’s a pre-existing level of knowledge that lulls me into a false sense of feeling like everybody [00:19:05] knows what I’m going on about. Same with.

Speaker3: Dentistry. People are like talking about stuff and they’re like, yeah, you know, veneers. [00:19:10] They’re like, yeah, I don’t know what that is.

Speaker1: Yeah, exactly. So, um, breathwork to me, for me [00:19:15] is an umbrella tum that encapsulates any way that we can use the breath to shift our state physically, [00:19:20] mentally, emotionally, spiritually within that, um, the way that I’ve developed the breath [00:19:25] space approach over the last few years has very much been informed, both by ancient practices, [00:19:30] ancient wisdom and contemporary science backed, um, evidence based practices, and [00:19:35] has been drawn directly from, um, how [00:19:40] I benefited from breathwork. So I talk about full spectrum breathwork, really [00:19:45] working from at one end the micro, which is about how we breathe day to day, and the 20 plus thousand [00:19:50] breaths that we take every single day, and the impact of those and how we can work at a [00:19:55] very simple level to optimise that all the way through to the macro level, where we’re working with big transformational [00:20:00] breathwork experiences. And there’s three key pillars that we can break it down to. The first [00:20:05] being that functional breathing piece. So how as a listener, as you guys [00:20:10] hear right now, do you breathe unconsciously? What is the natural resting state of your [00:20:15] breath? And is that helping you? Is that harming you? How is that affecting you? [00:20:20] And once we can become aware of that, how can you optimise that? So [00:20:25] that for me is is really the it can be a spectrum or a bit of a pyramid. And that is the first [00:20:30] layer that is the fundamentals.

Speaker1: We then have this middle piece which is around [00:20:35] the nervous system and nervous system regulation, which is looking at the role of the [00:20:40] quite unique role of the breath as a part of our autonomic nervous system. And the [00:20:45] best analogy here is that your breath can act as a remote control into the state of your nervous system, [00:20:50] to create change by conscious breathing. We then have the far end of the spectrum, which [00:20:55] is where we’re working with therapeutic breathwork, conscious, connected, breathing, these big [00:21:00] transcendent mystical experiences that come as a result of using the breath to tap into altered states [00:21:05] of consciousness. That realm sounds sexier, it sounds [00:21:10] more exciting, and ultimately, on the face of it, it is. But all of these are incredibly impactful [00:21:15] and important. This ends this kind of deeper end of the spectrum has typically been, um, [00:21:20] I’d say neglected or not really viewed, um, as worth [00:21:25] researching by by the scientific community. Um, but there are studies emerging now, and [00:21:30] there’s a really exciting one that came out back in September last year and that found [00:21:35] through, um, anecdotal experience. But through the research of this, this [00:21:40] study group that you can create, um, mystical experiences that [00:21:45] are comparable to medium to high doses of psilocybin. Yeah. Have you heard about this work? Um, [00:21:50] so that to me is the most exciting piece of research in breathwork for, for a while. [00:21:55]

Speaker3: So, you know, this is super interesting to me as well, because I’ve heard people say particularly [00:22:00] addicts because addicts feel like they can’t. Even though plant medicine is obviously not considered to necessarily [00:22:05] be a form of addiction, like a lot of people that go into total sobriety definitely don’t even [00:22:10] want to do plant medicines, but they say they can achieve that same high through breathwork, like you literally [00:22:15] can, you know, reach an altered state of consciousness. You see visuals like experience [00:22:20] that in your body. And I find that incredible. To me, though, I’m a bit of a disbeliever. [00:22:25] I’m like, how do you know what I mean? Like, do you have to be there for hours? And I’d probably lose patience. And with my ADHD tendencies, [00:22:30] I just can’t imagine. Reaching that altered state so you know what [00:22:35] would be required? And do you need to be a pro to reach that?

Speaker1: I’d say [00:22:40] not not. It’s not about being a pro. Um, and it’s not even necessarily about time. I think the [00:22:45] big difference, the key differential between plant medicines, psychedelics and [00:22:50] breathwork is the, um, the [00:22:55] substance nature of the medicine work. Because when you take a [00:23:00] plant medicine, a psychedelic, you are on the roller coaster, you’re not getting off. There is a change [00:23:05] coming, there’s an experience coming, and you ultimately just have to surrender to that. And if [00:23:10] you try and control that, it can create discomfort with breathwork. And this is a pro [00:23:15] and a con when it comes to working with altered states of consciousness, you are in control. So you [00:23:20] can stop. You can get distracted, you can get resistant, you can pull back, you [00:23:25] can push forward. That to me is the beauty of it and the pitfall of it, because [00:23:30] it can be so powerful. And I wouldn’t ever want to be one of those people that says it can [00:23:35] work for everyone, but it can work for a large majority of people. If we’re taking into [00:23:40] account the proper medical contraindications, safety precautions, and all of that side of things. Um, [00:23:45] the difference in what I see, you know, over the past sort of four and a half, five [00:23:50] years of experience in retreats and in workshops where we’re working with these deeper modalities [00:23:55] is that someone might step in, you might step in, for example, Rona, and, um, it [00:24:00] might take you 40 minutes in a session to really get into it for someone [00:24:05] else.

Speaker1: It might be their first session ever, and it might take them five minutes and they’re in. Um, [00:24:10] and that is dependent on a number of factors, but very much about the individual, [00:24:15] your capacity to let go your natural brain state as well, because ultimately [00:24:20] we are working with brain states and shifting brain states. Um, and really at a kind [00:24:25] of slightly, um, reductionist level where dropping the activity [00:24:30] in the monkey mind, that kind of ruminative part of the brain, and seeing a spike in activity in the subconscious, [00:24:35] which is where the experience itself comes from, which is completely mirroring [00:24:40] what we see with, with plant medicines. So sometimes it takes people. And I was one of [00:24:45] these people. It took me probably 5 or 6 sessions to get anywhere because I had I view it as [00:24:50] sort of layers of the onion. I had a lot of stuff to to dig through, to even get to a point [00:24:55] where I could open to an experience, whereas other people will drop straight in, [00:25:00] um, and that is just unique to the individual. Um, so I’d say there’s a [00:25:05] capacity for the large majority of people to get genuine experience and benefit [00:25:10] from that particular style of breathwork, but I’m also aware that it’s not for everybody.

Speaker4: So [00:25:15] is there is there a particular habit, I mean, coffee or sleep, [00:25:20] or is there something that gets in the way? Did you tell people not to drink coffee [00:25:25] before they have a session or something?

Speaker1: So I ran a retreat this weekend, just gone, and we [00:25:30] advise in the week leading up to it to minimise coffee, minimise social [00:25:35] media use, minimise stress, clean up your diet. All of this stuff that you might [00:25:40] do for a diet or working with plant medicines as well to, um, I [00:25:45] wouldn’t say it’s a particular habit, but I would say it’s anything that serves as an overstimulating [00:25:50] capacity on both the body and the mind. So anything that could be a distraction, anything [00:25:55] that might stop you going inwards, anything that keeps you trapped in your head. And so there will be certain [00:26:00] personalities who have a trickier time of being trapped in their head anyway. [00:26:05] Um, whereas other people might me who might actually just be able to drop in much [00:26:10] more naturally and more quickly. So, um, in an ideal world, we would strip out kind of [00:26:15] stimulants, we’d strip out tech, we’d strip out everything, um, which is kind of just a bit of a metaphor [00:26:20] for life on a grander scale, ultimately. But, um, to get the most from it, we would look [00:26:25] to minimise other, other aspects.

Speaker3: I’m going to pivot a little bit because obviously we’re dentists [00:26:30] and I’m so interested in this. So recently on social media platforms [00:26:35] like TikTok and everything, everything’s been talking about, everyone’s been talking about breathwork, jaw formation, [00:26:40] and I think we’ve seen a massive change in dentistry because we used to be perceived [00:26:45] as butchers and very much like drill, fill, pay the bills sort of people. Now people are recognising, [00:26:50] I mean, it’s so exciting. I was just saying to you earlier, Huberman’s released a podcast on the oral microbiome. [00:26:55] Amazing. So we’re having these conversations and controversially, there was an orthodontist, [00:27:00] him and his father mu. And it’s mewing. Were you? I learned this on TikTok and [00:27:05] I asked my orthodontist and she was just like, you know, this is super controversial. But [00:27:10] ultimately, environmental and genetic factors can play an effect on the growth of a child [00:27:15] and their jaw, etc. and then obviously breathing as well. So I want you and you’re like, Rona, you [00:27:20] should know more about this. I actually don’t, you know, and I don’t know if Payman does. Do you know, how about how breath and the jaw [00:27:25] effect?

Speaker4: I had a boss who was very close to me, and so, um, he used to [00:27:30] talk a lot about it, but.

Speaker3: Yeah. So tell us, Jamie.

Speaker1: It’s one of the big ones [00:27:35] at the moment because of the rise of social media and the chat about mouth taping. [00:27:40] Yeah. So, um, ultimately, this fits into this first pillar where we’re talking about functional [00:27:45] breathing. And a lot of the conversation about functional breathing, um, is, broadly speaking, split into [00:27:50] a conversation versus nasal versus mouth, um, and belly versus chest. So this is about biomechanics [00:27:55] and biochemistry of breathing and how you really habitually breathe naturally. And [00:28:00] it’s fascinating because let’s if we just speak to what we’re referring to [00:28:05] here in terms of nasal breathing versus mouth breathing, oral breathing, um, the benefits [00:28:10] of nasal breathing over mouth breathing are so well documented. [00:28:15] Now in the research, it’s, you know, there’s not even a discussion anymore around this and this. This [00:28:20] applies to rest during sleep, during low to medium intensity exercise. We want to be breathing [00:28:25] through the nose so the nose will naturally slow the breath. [00:28:30] It’s a smaller passageway. It’s going to regulate the breath in a really nice way. That’s going to help to regulate the nervous system. [00:28:35] Number one, it’s going to filter humidify and really create optimal [00:28:40] air to be received by the lungs. Additionally to that, when we breathe through the nose, we get [00:28:45] deeper and better recruitment of the bottom portion of the lungs. So we’re using more of our respiratory capacity. [00:28:50] All of these are great mouth breathing. On the other hand, um, [00:28:55] not only recruits a higher portion of the lungs, so we’re actually breathing more shallow. We’re [00:29:00] also breathing more in terms of volume. So we’re over breathing what people talk about in terms [00:29:05] of things like hyperventilation syndrome. So we’re offloading a lot of carbon dioxide. We [00:29:10] might then get a decrease in cerebral blood flow, brain fog, dehydration. [00:29:15] There’s one amazing study that shows that mouth breathing we lose 42% more water mouth [00:29:20] breathing compared to nasal breathing, which.

Speaker4: Is how interesting.

Speaker1: Plenty. Um, and the reason [00:29:25] that this comes around to this idea of mouth taping and mouth breathing and looking [00:29:30] to avoid it, particularly during sleep, is a that mouth taping is quite a people [00:29:35] view it as strange, people view it as out there, people view it as shocking. Um, but also [00:29:40] because of the fact that so many people are falling into habitual [00:29:45] mouth breathing while they’re awake and while they’re asleep. So the people I’m talking to are the ones that wake [00:29:50] up dry mouth, brain fog, fatigue, muscle soreness. And [00:29:55] to come back to your round, to your point on on dentistry. But hang on.

Speaker3: So mouth taping [00:30:00] does work. In conclusion.

Speaker4: Maybe let me just go through what it is.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:05] Simplify it. So mouth taping very simply I’ve seen it.

Speaker4: Yeah I have yeah.

Speaker1: Typically advised [00:30:10] to be a little strip of tape vertically over the centre of your lips. The idea being that it’s gently keeping [00:30:15] the mouth closed while you sleep. Yeah. The reason for this is that, um, I [00:30:20] can say, right, if you’re a habitual mouth breather while you’re awake, I want you to focus while you’re awake [00:30:25] on breathing more through your nose. And you go, okay, great, I’ll do that. You go to sleep and you spend eight hours breathing with [00:30:30] an open mouth, snoring, whatever it might be. Then you’re undoing a lot of that hard work, and you’re [00:30:35] not really resolving the root cause issue. And there can be multiple root causes of mouth breathing. [00:30:40] Um. So the mouth taping just really helps to redirect the breath [00:30:45] back through the nose during sleep. It is, in my opinion, a temporary [00:30:50] fix. It’s a short time solution that can help us create those [00:30:55] conditions where we can move towards a more optimal, more functional breathing pattern. It is also not [00:31:00] safe for people with certain medical contraindications around cardiovascular system with severe sleep [00:31:05] apnoea, particularly obstructive sleep apnoea. It’s not advised, even though those people would probably also be mouth [00:31:10] breathing, um, and anybody who’s pregnant. So there’s like quick caveats and disclaimers [00:31:15] around it.

Speaker1: But I’d say for fit, healthy, um, individuals who mouth breathe, [00:31:20] who are aware either because their partners told them or because they’re waking up with a lot of these symptoms of [00:31:25] dry mouth, brain fog, fatigue, bad breath, then it’s highly likely [00:31:30] that your mouth breathing and that mouth taping could be a short time solution to that. Um, so [00:31:35] I would say it works. I’ve I’ve done it myself. I don’t do it as much [00:31:40] as I did previously because I have developed over the years, kind of an all around more healthy [00:31:45] breathing pattern that has fed into sleep. Um, and I can certainly attest to the fact that in, [00:31:50] especially in the first six months of doing it and getting traction with it. [00:31:55] I noticed such a significant shift because I had been struggling with sinus [00:32:00] issues. I’d been breathing through my mouth for a lot of a lot of my early 20s that actually [00:32:05] I it’s the lowest hanging fruit that I’ve found from a health perspective. [00:32:10] Um, from a very personal experience perspective as well, um, in terms of clarity of thought, [00:32:15] sleep quality, overall cognitive functioning on waking. Um, and [00:32:20] it’s quite a it comes out being quite controversial, but that’s social [00:32:25] media’s fault because, because.

Speaker3: People are like so alarmed to see your like mouth tape shop but so with with [00:32:30] jaw formation because obviously we’ve got a condition called an anterior open bite, which basically means that the [00:32:35] top and bottom teeth don’t meet. You’ve got this gap between your top and bottom teeth. And sometimes [00:32:40] people try to close that space with their tongues. They get something called an endogenous tongue thrust to create like [00:32:45] a seal, for example. Um, and definitely, you know, typically we call them mouth breathers. [00:32:50] And there’s other kind of like issues going on with them. So do you believe that something [00:32:55] into and I know you’re not like the dentist or anything like that, but do you think that there is scope [00:33:00] for a conversation where interceptive treatment can be done to help jaw development? [00:33:05] Let’s talk about jaw development for sure.

Speaker1: So from a mouth breathing perspective, we [00:33:10] see particularly in and this conversation I think across dentistry and the world of [00:33:15] respiratory physiology is is great because we typically see especially in [00:33:20] childhood and development kind of craniofacial development. Um, mouth breathing will lead [00:33:25] to a elongation of the face. So a longer face, um, and a setting [00:33:30] back of the lower mandible. Lower mandible. Yeah. Um, so you see [00:33:35] poor teeth formation. You see a lot of, of factors that come up as a result of that, alongside the other [00:33:40] symptoms that we’ve mentioned in terms of cognitive function and sort of mental and emotional side of it. [00:33:45] Um, there I think it’s multi multifaceted because, you [00:33:50] know, you talked about environmental. It’s definitely a case for things like diet and proper [00:33:55] kind of food and, and real whole food in terms of how often we’re chewing and that formation of [00:34:00] the jaw. But again, it’s all of these things are multifaceted. And because [00:34:05] of that, we can suggest that breath and mouth [00:34:10] breathing is a likely factor. And if you see your child, for example, [00:34:15] or a young adult or even an older adult who is mouth breathing and they are having issues [00:34:20] with kind of jaw formation, face shape, general respiratory health as well, then [00:34:25] as long as they are fit and healthy, then you’ve actually not got much to lose. [00:34:30] In trying to remedy that as a possible solution would be my opinion.

Speaker3: But how can [00:34:35] you remedy it? Do you know what I mean? Like so if a child is mouth breathing, what are you going to do? You’re going to [00:34:40] take their mouth shut. Then from a young age, would you do it? I don’t have kids yet, so I don’t know. No. [00:34:45]

Speaker4: There.

Speaker1: Yeah. There’s I, um, it’s invasive. [00:34:50] It’s invasive. It feels.

Speaker4: Weird.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker4: There’s kid.

Speaker1: There’s certain tape that, [00:34:55] um, goes around the edge of the mouth that gently keeps the lips closed. And that is what’s typically recommended [00:35:00] and suggested for children. I my partner has a daughter. We’ve had this conversation [00:35:05] about it in terms of like, would you actually could we actually address it if we [00:35:10] felt it was an issue? And I feel quite strongly on it because I [00:35:15] and clearly in this world and I see the the harm that continuous [00:35:20] habitual mouth breathing can do. And as with anything in life, nature or nurture, [00:35:25] the earlier you catch it, the better. And the longer it goes on, for the worse it becomes, but also the harder [00:35:30] it is to undo. And so while it is invasive and probably not easy to any [00:35:35] parents listening or watching, they’ll be going, yeah, fat chance of that happening. I’m not never going to get my kid to do that. [00:35:40] And maybe that’s the case, but what else can we be doing? And I think there’s a conversation here about [00:35:45] wake time breathing and actually looking at what someone isn’t just mouth breathing just [00:35:50] because they’re not just mouth breathing at night because, um, so.

Speaker4: It [00:35:55] seems like a cultural problem rather than an actual problem. Well, I’m sure if [00:36:00] there was some device that a dentist could make that you could put in inside the mouth rather than the, the [00:36:05] fact that it’s over the lips just feels so strange, doesn’t it?

Speaker3: Well, I mean, there’s lots [00:36:10] of like, you know, there’s brands out there now like Myo Brace and stuff like that that are really affecting, like the jaw formation, [00:36:15] etc. and, you know, a bit teetering off from like breathwork, you know, [00:36:20] now they’re showing as well that giving your child like really chewy foods is really good for like, like jaw development [00:36:25] and everything like that. What I’m also interested to know is that is there any correlation between [00:36:30] the types of breathing and mental health disorders. So like ADHD, [00:36:35] like I’ve heard that ADHD now is linked to things [00:36:40] going on in the mouth and breathing etc. like that, which again is a massive thing for the dental sphere. [00:36:45] So has there been shown? Yeah.

Speaker1: So it’s a little bit chicken and egg when it comes [00:36:50] to, um, the mental and emotional experience and the experience of the breath. So. The [00:36:55] nervous system and breath are in this continuous dialogue where it’s, you know, as we all know, if something [00:37:00] frightens you, your breath will speed up, you’ll feel more fear, you’ll feel anxious, and vice versa. If [00:37:05] you’re breathing really quickly, you’ll start to feel more anxious. So we’re in this sort of constant loop. And there was a great [00:37:10] study that came out in 2013 that looked at the, um, natural habitual [00:37:15] breathing pattern of, uh, a study group that had diagnosed anxiety [00:37:20] disorders so significant enough anxiety disorders to, to be given a diagnosis. And they [00:37:25] found, I think the stat was 73, 72% of those with anxiety [00:37:30] disorders also had what were deemed diagnosable dysfunctional breathing patterns. [00:37:35] And that really to me, whether it’s causation, whether it’s correlation, [00:37:40] whatever, whatever the starting point, you develop an anxiety disorder and develop dysfunctional [00:37:45] breathing. They perpetuate each other. So we have this intrinsic link between the state of breath [00:37:50] and the state of mind. And ADHD is a great example because obviously we’re seeing so much [00:37:55] at the moment a conversation around ADHD, adult diagnoses of ADHD, and [00:38:00] I certainly feel from my own perspective, when I catch myself in what I would deem sort of as ADHD [00:38:05] like behaviours, a lack of focus, overstimulation, hyper focus, whatever it might be. [00:38:10]

Speaker1: And when I work with people with ADHD, what we’re ultimately looking [00:38:15] at isn’t saying that breath can cure ADHD, but we can [00:38:20] certainly use breathwork to work with symptoms to to support [00:38:25] ourselves. So a lot of people struggling with ADHD are also going to be feeling some expression [00:38:30] of a dysregulated, overstimulated nervous system. So actually, while we might not be [00:38:35] working with the root cause of the ADHD itself, perhaps we might be with some people. We [00:38:40] can use certain tools, techniques, practices to help them feel more balanced, to focus [00:38:45] more, to feel more regulated, whatever it might be. Um, and so there’s [00:38:50] for me, this is where stuff gets really powerful for breathwork from a [00:38:55] day to day level is actually going. We can work with our state of mind directly [00:39:00] through the breath. And that to me is the the power of it.

Speaker4: That’s super interesting because, you know, the autonomic [00:39:05] nervous system by definition is autonomic. Whereas some [00:39:10] of the stuff I’ve seen with Wim Hof that, you know, you can literally it’s the only [00:39:15] way of tapping into your autonomic nervous system is by changing your breath. Tell [00:39:20] me, what are the what are a couple of useful breathing patterns? Let’s [00:39:25] say I’m super stressed and have to have a panic attack or some feel that coming on. What should I do? [00:39:30] And the opposite. Let’s say I’m low energy and I want to get get going. What should [00:39:35] I do?

Speaker1: Great question. Yeah. So this comes back to the autonomic system right. We’re using that that lever [00:39:40] that remote control. So the language that we use here is up [00:39:45] regulation which is that that lifting or down regulation which is the the calming [00:39:50] which is the sympathetic response, which is fight flight, freeze and the parasympathetic rest and digest, [00:39:55] um, for panic and high anxiety and just general stress. Most [00:40:00] of the techniques and the stuff we lean on is pretty straightforward, but tends [00:40:05] to lean towards an extended exhale. So, like we did right back at the beginning, we did five extended [00:40:10] exhale breaths. This comes back to um heart rate and heart rate variability. [00:40:15] So we often think if um, my resting heart rate for example [00:40:20] might be 60 beats per minute, we think a beat on the second [00:40:25] every second for a minute. But what’s actually happening is when we inhale because of the change in volume of the [00:40:30] thoracic cavity, um, our heart rate slightly speeds up. When we exhale, it slightly slows down [00:40:35] logic, maths, whatever we want to call it. If you make your exhale longer than your inhale, [00:40:40] your heart rate is going to spend more time slowing down.

Speaker1: You’re going to start to feel more calm. We’re really tapping into that parasympathetic [00:40:45] response. So for high anxiety, usually we’ll work with [00:40:50] some kind of 1 to 2 ratio of inhale to exhale. So in for three [00:40:55] out for six in for four out for eight. Really maximising the length of that exhale. Um we [00:41:00] also introduce short holds. So in for four hold for four out for eight [00:41:05] is a great one. And the reason for that and from my past with panic attacks, [00:41:10] one of the most frustrating, intense, well-intended, but frustrating [00:41:15] pieces of advice is slow down your breathing because you’re in a panic attack and you barely have any [00:41:20] control if you’re breathing. And so one of the most powerful things that I found was actually to be able to [00:41:25] take a quick hold because then my breathing isn’t out of control. I hold, [00:41:30] I start breathing a little bit more slowly. I hold, and it’s really just taking back a little bit of [00:41:35] control, a bit of autonomy over my system and over what’s going on.

Speaker4: I found [00:41:40] the hold really useful last night when I did your, uh, your yes thing. It was almost like the you. [00:41:45]

Speaker3: Literally went from movement as medicine to breathwork. I love you, I’m so proud of you.

Speaker4: One after the other. [00:41:50]

Speaker3: So proud of you.

Speaker4: But it was, it was the hold was almost like a like a stillness like. [00:41:55]

Speaker3: But listen, I’m going to be honest with you, and I don’t know if this is me being me, [00:42:00] but I just can’t do breathwork on my own. And that’s why, like, I literally.

Speaker4: I like.

Speaker3: The guiding. Exactly. It’s [00:42:05] it’s Jamie’s guidance. And that’s why I think, like I always say, like, always invest in the professionals [00:42:10] because I think like, yeah, sure, I can download headspace, which I have done, I’ve done this [00:42:15] stuff. But like when you like, I’ve had one on one on one sessions with Jamie gone to his house and it’s just a different [00:42:20] space.

Speaker4: It’s the difference between watching a personal trainer on a video. Yeah.

Speaker3: And being, yeah.

Speaker4: Actually [00:42:25] being there. And I think part of it is the accountability of it. Yeah. Actually turning up.

Speaker3: Turning up.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah. I’ve [00:42:30] found um float tank the best was that float tank.

Speaker3: Oh [00:42:35] I’ve heard about this and I’ve never been guys where is.

Speaker4: It in Wandsworth. I go so.

Speaker3: Far. [00:42:40] Why.

Speaker4: It’s near me. So Fulham.

Speaker1: There’s there’s one in there all over the place. Oh, really? Yeah. [00:42:45]

Speaker4: So what is it in water. Yeah. Salty water at body temperature and a cover. But basically it’s [00:42:50] there’s no sort of stimulus at all.

Speaker3: Are you, are you just on top of [00:42:55] the water floating in like a bikini or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker4: Well naked because it’s covered. Oh, really? [00:43:00] And then, um, but then the breathing is the only thing and I’ve, I found when [00:43:05] I.

Speaker3: Want to try this for.

Speaker4: An hour, you’re just breathing. And it’s the only time where you can really [00:43:10] super focus in on breathing. You’re never going to do it for an hour like this. And this. Bright lights and all that. Have you tried it?

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:43:15] I love it. I’ve not done it for a while and I’m going to go back. Um, it’s great. It’s sensory deprivation. [00:43:20] And it is, I’d say akin to a lot of breathwork experience as well. [00:43:25] At that deeper end, spend maybe the first ten minutes, 15 minutes going.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: I’m [00:43:30] a bit bored. I’m a bit restless. Yeah. That’s right. If you can get into it, if you can stay with your breath, it becomes [00:43:35] this amazing space.

Speaker3: So I want to ask you, I mean, Jamie, I’ve known you for a long time [00:43:40] now, and I know that, you know, nothing sort of phases you in this realm. But Jamie’s done some incredible work [00:43:45] with other men, creating safe spaces for men, which is also one of the big reasons why I wanted to bring him here. [00:43:50] We often talk about I talk a lot about men, actually, on this podcast, only because I feel [00:43:55] like, you know, male suicide is still the single biggest killer in the UK of men under 25. [00:44:00] And I still feel worried for the role models that are out there. And Jamie’s created [00:44:05] a space with men that are, you know, look like, [00:44:10] I want to say normal people because I think people associate safe spaces with like being a bit woo woo and a bit like, [00:44:15] as they would say, naff. I’m just like kind of quoting. But he’s created like these, like men’s circles. [00:44:20] They do like retreats together. And they, they do they do activities which like harnesses [00:44:25] a lot of, um, you know, I say community and like a tribe like spirit. [00:44:30] But was it ever difficult for you to create those spaces and like, in [00:44:35] terms of, like delving into the world of breath space, which be considered quite like a feminine thing to do, [00:44:40] was there anything around that that was difficult for your mental health?

Speaker1: Absolutely. [00:44:45] I’d say it’s still it’s still a piece of work for me in terms of the development of, [00:44:50] um, my comfort in those spaces. I grew up from [00:44:55] 15 with my mum and my sister and didn’t [00:45:00] spend I spent time with my dad. I still have a good relationship with my dad, but I definitely grew up [00:45:05] in the the learnings and the environment of my mum and my sister and I. I put [00:45:10] down a lot of, um, my success and my, my kind of fulfilment [00:45:15] to that and the skills that I actually learnt, um, there and kind of everything that I [00:45:20] absorbed, um, and I’ve typically struggled [00:45:25] not so much in the last few years as I’ve worked with it and through it, but typically struggle with my relationship [00:45:30] towards other men. Um, I think there’s a naturally confrontational, [00:45:35] um, combative element to not all men, but the [00:45:40] male group. Um, and that leads to a lack [00:45:45] of vulnerability, a lack of openness. And in the same way, [00:45:50] it’s either a vicious or a virtuous cycle. Someone being open and vulnerable promotes openness [00:45:55] and vulnerable vulnerability, and someone being closed off and a bit, um, aloof [00:46:00] feeds the same. And it feeds standoffishness. And that is never going to be a healthy place for [00:46:05] connection, because the connection comes through the openness, through the authenticity, through the vulnerability. [00:46:10] And so I’ve been really fortunate to have worked with more and more men.

Speaker1: I’d say it’s still [00:46:15] heavily weighted towards women. Absolutely. I think the nature of the work that I do, [00:46:20] um, I, I don’t shy away from leading with emotion [00:46:25] in my work, and it takes time for people en masse [00:46:30] to to come into that with comfort, but particularly men. So many of us, myself included, were [00:46:35] raised of an era and to this day of a conditioning that [00:46:40] told us that that, you know, expression, healthy expression of emotion, any expression, expression [00:46:45] of emotion was feminine, it was weak, it was [00:46:50] something not to be engaged with. And so we pushed it down. We push it down, we push it down, and then we suffer and. [00:46:55] So I’ve been incredibly grateful that it’s developed over the last few years. I’ve sat in and held [00:47:00] men’s circles, men’s spaces, and I’m a big advocate now [00:47:05] in my work of mixed spaces and the capacity for for co healing [00:47:10] of women to witness men in their vulnerability and their openness and to, um, you [00:47:15] know, for the women who have maybe had terrible traumatic experiences at the hands of men [00:47:20] to witness men who are not threatening in that way, who are open, who [00:47:25] are healing, who are trying. Yeah. Um, and vice versa. I know so many men who have suffered at [00:47:30] the hands of women emotionally, physically and [00:47:35] for people to, to see a part of.

Speaker1: Maybe it’s your mum, maybe it’s your dad, maybe it’s [00:47:40] an ex-partner. To see a glimpse of that person who has hurt you in someone [00:47:45] else in one of those spaces is incredibly healing. Because there’s forgiveness, there is compassion, [00:47:50] there is conversation. And all of this healing for me in that capacity comes down to, [00:47:55] can you allow yourself to understand another perspective, [00:48:00] someone else’s perspective? Can you put yourself in the shoes of the person that hurt you? You [00:48:05] know, I think about my parents divorce and my dad, um, you know, clearly, [00:48:10] and this is something, you know, that I’ve worked with and worked through clearly, everything [00:48:15] that had happened before in his life and his childhood had led to a point where he found himself [00:48:20] unable to communicate in a way that that made that process perhaps easier than it could have been. [00:48:25] But as a late teens, early 20s man, I held a lot of resentment [00:48:30] towards him and very little understanding. And it’s only been through the understanding that you can even start [00:48:35] to tap into forgiveness and compassion. Um, and I think a lot of men, um, [00:48:40] struggle with that. I think just the openness piece, the emotional vulnerability piece, a [00:48:45] lot of good has happened. There’s so much more conversation happening than there’s ever been before, but there’s still [00:48:50] work to be done. I think.

Speaker3: 100%. I want to ask you something. Have you ever cried in front of your friends? Sure [00:48:55] you have. Yeah. Proud of you. I didn’t know I didn’t expect that of you, actually. [00:49:00] Why? So? No, I just felt like it’s like old school generation as well of, like, you know, [00:49:05] men have to always be, like, stoic and strong and etc.. The thing is, [00:49:10] is that I think that it is important. I mean, it was interesting because when we were talking on another [00:49:15] podcast, I was talking about, um, my immigrant family and the [00:49:20] different complexities that came with that. And Payman was like resonating and how what we achieved [00:49:25] academically or our achievements made us feel a sense of self-worth. And then someone [00:49:30] commented on the podcast and they were like, yeah, but what’s the opposite to that? Like, I think [00:49:35] that there has to be a balance, because if we tell people to just cry it out and like dwell [00:49:40] on their like sadness, they don’t grow and become resilient. I thought that was quite an interesting [00:49:45] point because I’m like, is there a balance? Do you think that we have become too soft as a nation, and [00:49:50] we’re allowing people to use their struggles to kind [00:49:55] of get on with it? Or do you think it is important that we actually create safer spaces? You know. [00:50:00]

Speaker1: I think it’s a great question. Um, I think my view [00:50:05] is that we have too much comfort, not that we have too much openness and softness. [00:50:10] I think we’re soft from a place of complacency and comfort rather than [00:50:15] soft from a place of vulnerability. I actually think, and there’s an interesting piece in the self-development [00:50:20] conversation that I think sometimes gets missed, which is actually the goal here. Isn’t [00:50:25] trauma dumping constant openness constant just shedding [00:50:30] everything with everyone and crying without any. You know, [00:50:35] we take crying as an obvious example, but expressing without any thought. It’s emotional regulation [00:50:40] that we’re seeking and we often confuse, you know, stoicism is a great example of [00:50:45] something that’s been massively misunderstood in modern society because stoicism people are like, [00:50:50] that’s just emotional repression in a different language, but actually stoicism, the Stoics were the best [00:50:55] sort of regulating their emotions. They were able to experience deep suffering, deep struggle, [00:51:00] feel it all and move forward. And actually, that to me is where [00:51:05] the growth and the resilience comes from isn’t from blocking an expression of an emotion, blocking the feeling of a feeling. [00:51:10] It’s actually feeling it fully, allowing it to pass through you and then regulating [00:51:15] yourself in the face of it. And I think that’s something that, especially in the conversation around men’s mental [00:51:20] health, has has to come into this, because I think that’s why a lot of men are resistant [00:51:25] and reluctant towards it, because they just think, I’m just going to become soft. I’m going to become too [00:51:30] open, too vulnerable. It’s going to be used against me. When actually this is about learn [00:51:35] how to feel your feelings so that you can become the best version of yourself, [00:51:40] so that you can be strong so that you can support other people because you cannot support [00:51:45] anybody else in their emotions effectively. If you’re completely disconnected from your own.

Speaker3: And it will manifest [00:51:50] in other physical ways. And that’s why when you see people that are really angry and again, angry is also healthy. Healthy [00:51:55] emotion. I remember my coach said to me, you know, go scream into a pillow like and I found that [00:52:00] one of the most useful tools in the world, because if I suppressed like anger, emotions, it would come out in [00:52:05] a really damaging way to the person that I was with. Not physically, but, you know, I would say something or [00:52:10] I would erupt and that would make me appear to that person in a certain way. But as you [00:52:15] said earlier, try to put yourself in other people’s shoes as well. Like, I just wanted to comment on that. [00:52:20]

Speaker4: I think, you know, part of the previous conversation we were having about women having to be more like [00:52:25] men in the workplace talking about men.

Speaker3: Yeah. See, look, Jamie is nodding. There is that. He says he’s learned a [00:52:30] whole new vocabulary.

Speaker4: It’s real. It’s real. But but also, I think these days [00:52:35] men are learning to be more like women. You know that that you know, this this conversation ten years [00:52:40] ago, even ten years ago would have been seen as like, just just [00:52:45] bullshit, you know, just crap. Yeah. You know, whereas now, you know, you can ask me if I cry, I [00:52:50] can, I can say, yes, I did in front of my friend without worrying about that. This is going out.

Speaker3: You know, [00:52:55] the reason why I asked you that as well is because, like, you know, we’ve had conversations because when I came on here [00:53:00] the first time and stuff, I was using words like trauma and everything and like, because Payman had never [00:53:05] been exposed to this whole realm of stuff. And over time he recognised [00:53:10] that actually, it’s an understanding and doing work that I can use these words [00:53:15] to understand who I am.

Speaker4: Like another. Yeah.

Speaker3: You know, um, but the other thing is, [00:53:20] is that thinking about it, even though we’re talking about like the archetypal figures [00:53:25] within society, someone like Wim Hof comes across as like a really like, masculine, like caveman [00:53:30] to me. And he’s like made a whole movement out of breathwork, do you know what I mean? So in a way, [00:53:35] he’s broke that because you suddenly have these like, you know, typical like six pack, [00:53:40] six foot men, you know, like whatever people want to define as being physically masculine doing [00:53:45] like ice baths and breathwork, which I think is remarkable. It’s like a huge movement, you know? [00:53:50]

Speaker1: Yeah, I really see it happening. I think there’s a, um, an [00:53:55] asterix there as well from, From My side, which is, um, any of these practices [00:54:00] ice baths, ultramarathons, Wim Hof, breathwork, whatever it might be, are also [00:54:05] very good ways to escape what you’re feeling and more to numb from it and to [00:54:10] avoid from it. That to me, is is going. Intentionality is at the core here. [00:54:15] If you engage in any of these practices as simply a means to escape what’s going on inside your own head, and to [00:54:20] avoid the apparent discomfort or, um, apparent boredom of sitting still and [00:54:25] actually feeling what you’re feeling, then that, to me, is actually not what we’re aiming [00:54:30] for.

Speaker3: No, it’s I talk a lot about self-soothing, and it’s another method of self-soothing. I find it interesting [00:54:35] that as addicts as well replace their addiction with intense exercise. It’s just another [00:54:40] addiction. It’s another.

Speaker4: Escape. You can slow down your breathing by smoking. Mm.

Speaker3: Let’s talk about.

Speaker4: You can [00:54:45] slow down your breathing by breathing. You know, like by doing that exercise. Yeah.

Speaker3: Smoking in the breath. [00:54:50] Does it affect your breath? Work practice is the question. All right. We know what it does like in terms of like the body [00:54:55] you know but it will affect your breath work practice for sure.

Speaker1: I remember I created for an app a few years ago, a, [00:55:00] um, a breathwork session to help with quitting smoking. Amazing. And it was essentially [00:55:05] to try and replicate the breathing pattern that is done via smoking, because obviously there are [00:55:10] substances within a cigarette that are creating this feeling and this addiction. But [00:55:15] actually, um, there will also be the the slowness of the breath that will definitely be [00:55:20] playing a role within that. If we take out, you know, let’s say smoking was completely non harmful, [00:55:25] it would probably still create a level of relaxation through the time that you’re taking [00:55:30] for yourself and the speed at which you’re breathing. Um, that’s not an [00:55:35] advert for smoking. Um, but it’s, I guess, understanding [00:55:40] the motion, the motion understanding what’s going on, but also understanding. And this is where we get deeper into, [00:55:45] you know, trauma and addiction, but also understanding why what’s led somebody there and [00:55:50] a holding compassion for that, but be supporting them through that and going actually, what is [00:55:55] a what is a different and healthier outlet for this thing that is creating the habit? [00:56:00]

Speaker3: Let’s talk about about ice baths. Right. Because I started doing this, you know, Prav is obsessed. He like [00:56:05] spends like 10 to 15 minutes in that zero degrees. I’m literally two minutes and I cannot [00:56:10] put my hands in. Yeah, I’m sitting there like that on the side. But anyway, what’s the correlation [00:56:15] with breathwork and being in the ice bath? You know, like does it enhance your breathwork? [00:56:20] Because I naturally feel I go into a different breathwork as soon as I hit the water, just naturally [00:56:25] without. But that’s like an unconscious thing, if that makes sense. So, um, so [00:56:30] yeah, talk to us a little bit about ice baths and breathwork.

Speaker1: I have some strong opinions on ice baths. Um, I [00:56:35] use them, I advocate for them. I advocate for responsible use of ice baths. [00:56:40] Um, and I think there’s a fuck ton of irresponsible use of ice baths. And [00:56:45] to the point where people are going to start seeing a negative impact, in my [00:56:50] opinion. I think we’re going to I think we never hear about the stuff that’s already going wrong. But I think. Panic [00:56:55] attacks. Uh, if there’s not proper medical contraindications, exposed [00:57:00] people, you know, heart attacks in a very extreme case. Yeah, can.

Speaker3: Affect your fertility. Just question [00:57:05] like for men and women, because I think Huberman said, not Huberman. Someone said that for men it can actually affect [00:57:10] fertility.

Speaker1: So Spum cold is cold is good for spum count. Um, I would [00:57:15] say up to a point. Yeah. Um, and heat sauna, for example, is not is [00:57:20] not good for spum count. Um, that’s why the testicles are on the outside of the body rather than the inside [00:57:25] is because the cold is good. Um, I don’t know the direct kind of impact on on sperms fertility, [00:57:30] but cold. Good. Heat bad. Okay.

Speaker4: Um, do you find yourself. You must find yourself [00:57:35] having to talk about all sorts of realms outside of breathwork itself. [00:57:40]

Speaker1: Yeah, I think.

Speaker4: Having to educate yourself on these.

Speaker1: Absolutely. I think I, I [00:57:45] very much view breathwork as sort of the, the thing I, I teach and [00:57:50] the thing I talk about, but actually let’s, you know, I work with a 1 to 1 client. I’m talking to [00:57:55] them about their mindset, uh, their past, their childhood. I’m talking to them [00:58:00] about mainly we’re talking through the lens of the nervous system. So that’s I would view [00:58:05] the work as really working with the nervous system, which is where ice baths start to come in, where other practices start to come [00:58:10] in, and the concept of rest, the concept of resilience, all of this stuff, it’s sort of breath [00:58:15] as a gateway into a much broader conversation around the nervous system and those practices. But wait, I’m. [00:58:20]

Speaker3: Not done with the ice baths. Yeah, okay.

Speaker1: Come back to the ice baths. So getting into the [00:58:25] ice or let’s go use of ice baths first and then talk about the breath in relation to it. So [00:58:30] ice baths are an acute stressor. Anyone who’s gotten one will obviously know that [00:58:35] it’s stressful. Um, the view is that they can be used as a hormetic stressor, a positive [00:58:40] stressor, to create positive adaptations in the nervous system, in the body. And there are very well documented [00:58:45] benefits of ice baths in terms of the release of cold shock proteins, in [00:58:50] terms of nervous system resilience, in terms of energy, release of dopamine, all of the stuff that gets people [00:58:55] hooked and bought into it. Um, for me, I think the biggest benefits of [00:59:00] of ice baths come in the realm of, um. Psychological [00:59:05] resilience.

Speaker4: So I agree with you.

Speaker1: They always I don’t trust [00:59:10] anyone who says I love ice baths. What they really mean is I love how ice baths make me feel, [00:59:15] and I love that I feel mentally stronger as a result of getting into ice baths. The experience itself sucks [00:59:20] and.

Speaker3: I hated every minute of it.

Speaker1: But it’s about how you [00:59:25] relate to the conversation that goes on in your head around it. Because human talks about this [00:59:30] Hormozi talks about this. Chris Williamson talks about this. You are building a stack [00:59:35] of evidence that you can win the conversation with the voice in your head, that you’re building a stack of evidence that you can do [00:59:40] something, that ultimately your mind is telling you that you don’t want to do. And that is powerful. That, to [00:59:45] me, is is pretty much my main motivator for using ice baths and doing anything.

Speaker4: Is [00:59:50] there a way you should breathe before getting in?

Speaker1: So this is where it gets interesting because the Wim Hof [00:59:55] method. Let’s talk more about Wim. Um, the Wim Hof method is mainly based [01:00:00] around hyperventilation breathwork, and you’ll see people doing it before they get into the ice. I [01:00:05] get that as an experience and I’m trying to be balanced here. That will [01:00:10] psych you up for something like an ice bath. It’ll get you going, it’ll get you charged up, fired up and [01:00:15] go, I can do this just.

Speaker4: Quick and out and out and out. Is that what you mean by hyperventilation? Yes.

Speaker1: So [01:00:20] the Wim Hof breath would be. You’re really stimulating yourself. [01:00:25] I think that is the worst possible way you could breathe before an ice bath. Before? Yeah.

Speaker3: What about when you’re. [01:00:30]

Speaker1: In it during? Because actually, let’s take us through a process of getting into an ice bath for a normal person. [01:00:35] You step up towards the ice bath. Anticipation nerves. Your [01:00:40] breathing rate increases, your heart rate increases. You start to go into this fight flight response. [01:00:45] If you then hyperventilate, you’re going to put gas on a fire. And so [01:00:50] we want to breathe slowly. We want to regulate that nervous anxious response so that you’re more [01:00:55] calm getting into it. So slow your breathing down. Extend the exhale. Then when it comes to getting in, as you [01:01:00] perfectly described Rona, we get this natural innate gasp reflex that happens [01:01:05] for everybody. When you get into the cold, it will try and steal your breath, shoot it up right [01:01:10] into the upper chest and make you pant and gasp. So all we do. And this is how my [01:01:15] protocol for ice baths slow your breath down before, as you get ready to get in, take three [01:01:20] big clearing breaths like. On your fourth breath, [01:01:25] take a full inhale, hold at the top and as you step in and lower down, exhale [01:01:30] as slowly as gently as you can. And then your goal is to stay [01:01:35] with this slower breath as you can in through the nose, out of the mouth for the first 30 to 60s [01:01:40] the the test for me of how well someone can regulate themselves in the [01:01:45] face of stress is how well they can regulate their breath in an ice bath. So if you [01:01:50] can regulate your breathing, you’re able to regulate that shock response, that stress response. You’re able to stay [01:01:55] in for a little bit longer. Um, and the more you can slow your breath down, the better an [01:02:00] experience it’s going to be. You see people getting in, they’ve hyperventilated before they get in, and they’re hyperventilating [01:02:05] while they’re in there, and they come out and they might feel buzzed. They might feel alive and energised. [01:02:10] Talk to me in two hours and they’ll be knackered. They’ll [01:02:15] be drained, they’ll be withered.

Speaker3: And what’s the what about, what’s your thoughts on like the different protocols [01:02:20] of like then go from like that to a sauna or the other way around. Do you think there is, is there [01:02:25] evidence that there’s benefits to doing it with a sauna? And which way round is better for sure.

Speaker1: So sauna is [01:02:30] another, um, hormetic stressor, um, less acute, less direct than the [01:02:35] ice, but a really, I love the sauna. Me too. Arguably more than I.

Speaker3: I’m happy in the heat. I’m very happy [01:02:40] in the heat. So the heat is great.

Speaker1: It’s a great heart health number one for me, from a sauna perspective, [01:02:45] I mental clarity is just I get all of my best ideas in the sauna. [01:02:50] Um, but heart health, increasing circulation through the heat. Um, and it’s just really, [01:02:55] really well documented for cardiovascular health, um, in terms of use of ice and heat together. [01:03:00] Um, always the disclaimer around just safety and blood pressure is changing [01:03:05] a lot when you’re in the ice and when you’re in a sauna going in opposite, opposite directions. And people can have [01:03:10] quite negative experiences of significant drops in blood pressure if they’re moving too quickly between [01:03:15] the two and sort of recklessly between the two. That being said, if [01:03:20] I have an hour in our studio in Fulham downstairs, um, I will regularly do [01:03:25] 15 minutes in the sauna once two minute break outside of the sauna, [01:03:30] 90s to two minutes in the ice, 2 or 3 times through that kind of [01:03:35] protocol, which is a really great just stress resilience and recovery protocol. [01:03:40] It just I just I love it, it makes me feel great. But the key to this [01:03:45] conversation of any use of sauna, but particularly ice baths, is helping [01:03:50] people understand their own nervous system. So if you are someone you’re walking into a room [01:03:55] with an ice bath and you’ve had a really anxious, really stressful day, and I think [01:04:00] very carefully before you get into an ice bath, because you’re going to put a huge amount of stress on your already stressed.

Speaker1: System for [01:04:05] some people, and this is where we need to learn to to think for ourselves ultimately and take personal [01:04:10] responsibility for some people that will take the edge off their anxiety, because that’s just how [01:04:15] their system works. But for the majority of us, I would say you need to be able to listen to your own [01:04:20] nervous system and know how you’re going to dose the thing that you’re about to do accordingly. [01:04:25] So I’ll have days. I love an ice bath. I love the sauna. If I’m super wired, [01:04:30] super stressed, even if I want to get into the ice, I won’t get into the ice because [01:04:35] I don’t need that additional stress. And when I first discovered breathwork, one of the first [01:04:40] things I came to was the Wim Hof method. I was still struggling a lot with anxiety and [01:04:45] it made my anxiety worse. Now it sounds a little bit like I’m just slating the Wim Hof method. [01:04:50] It’s helped so many people. It’s a great pro, it’s.

Speaker3: Stressful for me.

Speaker1: It’s [01:04:55] highly stressful and it’s always presented as a cure all. If you’ve got [01:05:00] anxiety, do this and it will work.

Speaker3: But like you said, when you’re in a state of anxiety, my physiological state [01:05:05] is so stumped and so paralysed, the last thing I can do is like start doing things [01:05:10] like that. I need something to create calm. The breathwork space is obviously been [01:05:15] incredible and I really want to know what do you think the future of breathwork is? Because obviously, [01:05:20] you know, you’ve also done some incredible things on like TikTok, Instagram, everything like that. You see more in people emerging [01:05:25] in this space. But what do you see the future as a future?

Speaker1: Um, I [01:05:30] see a bright future, but I, I can [01:05:35] come through with sort of the, not the bearer of bad news, but just with a slightly more, [01:05:40] I hope, realistic lens for this work, which is, um, you could say [01:05:45] this about a lot of fields and how they’re presented on social media, but, um, as [01:05:50] people flood to breathwork, I think that’s happening because it’s very accessible and it is very powerful. And [01:05:55] we’re seeing that in the research. And the anecdotal evidence is that it has for myself, for [01:06:00] thousands of people I’ve worked with, had a very positive impact. That being said, [01:06:05] I will never, ever operate in the realm of absolute, so I will never say it works for everybody. I will never say it will always, [01:06:10] you know, it will cure your anxiety, it will do this. It will do that because that would be dishonest. [01:06:15] Ultimately, I think it can play a very pivotal, key role in the overall [01:06:20] support of the of society in how we regulate our nervous systems, [01:06:25] how we tap into rest, how we find more balance. The space itself is [01:06:30] growing so quickly that we are due a reset. I think there’s a bubble that will burst at some point. [01:06:35] Um, you’re getting people misrepresenting things, running poor, [01:06:40] poor certifications, poor trainings, um, that are, [01:06:45] you know, I trained for, for from a conscious connected breathwork therapeutic breathwork perspective for [01:06:50] six months, part time. Um, and there are now trainings that you can do purely online that you get [01:06:55] a certification after a day.

Speaker1: It’s a very unregulated space, a little bit like life coaching. [01:07:00] There’s a lot of people doing a lot of good, but there’s also people looking to make a huge amount of money, as [01:07:05] with anything in capitalism. So I think this for me, for anybody listening, [01:07:10] is not a case of don’t buy the hype about breathwork because I think it is amazing and [01:07:15] I think there’s so much good to be done, so much good that can be gained. But it’s [01:07:20] a buyer beware thing. It’s, you know, look into the facilitator, the practitioner [01:07:25] who you’re going to be working with, look at their credentials, their certifications and [01:07:30] look to them as a person. I think the difference that I’ve seen, you know, [01:07:35] five years ago, getting into this space, there was such a small group of practitioners, [01:07:40] I could have counted them on one hand, and everybody knew everybody, and it was all people who had [01:07:45] either been in this space for a very long time or who similar to me. It had such a profound [01:07:50] impact on personally that we felt compelled to share it. You’re now getting people, and I see this across wellness [01:07:55] as a whole, coming into this space, because they think they’re going to make money and actually in [01:08:00] a service led, purpose led, um, practice where you’re supporting people, where it’s therapeutic. [01:08:05] Ultimately, that won’t fly.

Speaker3: You know what, you say that, right? But I was [01:08:10] really shocked because about ten years ago, I had a couple of yoga instructors as clients. And [01:08:15] I always thought anybody that goes into yoga is surely a very like conscious human [01:08:20] being with really great, like morals and values. And actually, I was totally shocked to find [01:08:25] that wasn’t the case. And I think I was naive to believe that when someone dedicates their life to [01:08:30] practices that have been built out of healing, they’re all like that. But as you said, like capitalism, now [01:08:35] I have a really sour my taste. I really don’t like yoga, like I.

Speaker4: Know what it is. There’s a lot of fuckery. [01:08:40]

Speaker3: Yeah, there is.

Speaker4: There is around wellness. But when you.

Speaker3: Say it won’t fly, it will fly [01:08:45] because there’s loads of.

Speaker4: Alienation, right? I mean, there’s a lot of bullshit out there. There’s. [01:08:50]

Speaker1: And this is what makes me sad is that, um, we say buyer beware, but I think [01:08:55] people are can be easily led when they’re looking.

Speaker3: For something vulnerable.

Speaker1: When they’re vulnerable and looking for support, [01:09:00] they will turn to someone who is saying the right things. And that is where that. That is why I think the bubble [01:09:05] will at some point burst, because I think and there are things that are known in the breathwork world and [01:09:10] that haven’t quite gone because it’s not quite big enough yet of, you know, long standing [01:09:15] practitioners who have had cases brought against them for misconduct, you know. Yeah, there’s there’s [01:09:20] some there’s not a huge amount, but I think there will be more because people are vulnerable. People [01:09:25] are being put into vulnerable states, all the states of consciousness. And I do think there [01:09:30] will be, as with everything, because humanity has a shadow collectively and individually, [01:09:35] there will be more that comes to the surface. Absolutely.

Speaker4: Yeah. But you know, the nature of [01:09:40] social and algorithms. I mean, in our space, we’ve got a company [01:09:45] who makes a teeth whitening product that doesn’t whiten teeth. Um, but they [01:09:50] turn over half $1 billion a year. Oh, I know what you’re talking about.

Speaker3: The TikTok brand.

Speaker4: Yeah, [01:09:55] and the purple.

Speaker1: The purple one.

Speaker4: Yeah, but you know, now, by the way, we shouldn’t [01:10:00] as dentists, we sort of we measure the colour of teeth and we’re and we have to remember when someone’s [01:10:05] buying that and using that. It’s not necessarily looking for what me and you are looking [01:10:10] for. Yeah. Because it’s the execution is actually very good on those products. Right. They taste good. [01:10:15] They feel good. They click. Well, you know, a lot of times when you use makeup or whatever, you know, it’s [01:10:20] it’s all of that you’re buying into, you’re buying into all of that.

Speaker3: You’re buying into the experience.

Speaker4: But what my point is the [01:10:25] truth doesn’t always out.

Speaker1: Mhm. Yeah I would, I would agree with you on that as well I [01:10:30] think um yeah I think it’s going to be a very interesting time for the space. There’s, I [01:10:35] tell you the biggest thing that I see at the moment and it’s each to their own, but um, [01:10:40] particularly with these transformative kind of deeper modalities of breathwork, the experience can be very [01:10:45] emotional, very cathartic, can be quite physical. I’ve had people in sessions before where if you’re from [01:10:50] the outside looking in, you’d be like, that person is having an exorcism. You know, they’re vibrating, they’re shaking, they’re [01:10:55] releasing. I’ve seen it in Jamie’s classes. That is part of it. But [01:11:00] what we see on social media, from accounts that have blown up as a result of this kind of content, because [01:11:05] it’s how social works, um, real up close and personal videos [01:11:10] of experiences like that. And I call it catharsis porn because it’s just promoting this, [01:11:15] like arguably quite unrealistic expectation of what a breathwork experience will be. [01:11:20] And it can be off putting for people because they’re like, I’m scared of that. It can set people’s expectations [01:11:25] too high because they’re like, I need that, and I this is where [01:11:30] I know I sometimes shoot myself in the foot from a, particularly [01:11:35] from a social perspective, but from a marketing perspective more broadly, because I think I [01:11:40] personally believe and other people are entitled to their opinion that we as practitioners have a duty of responsibility [01:11:45] in how we talk about these things, how we promote these things, the language we use, the [01:11:50] expectations we set, and really just holding yourself accountable for to. And [01:11:55] I think a lot of these people believe their own hype. Right. And so they don’t think they’re lying. They [01:12:00] don’t think they get into a state.

Speaker3: You know, it’s like cognitive dissonance. They start really like [01:12:05] believing the things that they say. And I genuinely think and we talked already about [01:12:10] I was telling Payman about on another podcast about how I went to go see The Picture of Dorian Grey, and [01:12:15] it was the best production I’ve ever seen. It was incredible. She got a standing ovation by the entire theatre [01:12:20] was Sarah Snook that played 26 roles. But the point is, nothing’s actually changed. And they were really clever because [01:12:25] when she looked in the mirror, she turned into all the filters on Instagram and was like loving her [01:12:30] own appearance as Dorian. And I was like, but that’s it. Like people love. There’s this, like, self-congratulatory [01:12:35] thing. And especially if a video goes viral on Instagram, you’re like, I have to keep [01:12:40] living this lie. There was a documentary.

Speaker4: Sometimes the genius is in the storytelling. [01:12:45]

Speaker3: Yeah, 100%.

Speaker4: But some people have that genius. Doesn’t mean they necessarily [01:12:50] know about breath. Yeah, but they know how to tell a story about breath.

Speaker3: Yeah, but I think it’s that transparency, [01:12:55] because even some of the most notorious podcasts that are out there at the moment are getting a lot of backlash. I’m not [01:13:00] going to name any names, but they’re getting backlash because also, um, they are bringing [01:13:05] on experts that don’t are not actually good enough to like, comment. [01:13:10] So, for example, recently a big podcaster got hate because he’s getting scientists to comment [01:13:15] on diet. And the nutritionists out there are like, no, but that’s wrong because the scientist would be like, I’m happy you’re [01:13:20] better off drinking like a glass of full fat Coke instead of some orange juice from a sugar perspective. [01:13:25] But the point is, the nutritionist like, but we’re not just looking at sugar content calorie. We’re looking at like [01:13:30] other things as well. So again, I’ve always said this to you like nuanced thinking is becoming [01:13:35] less and less and polarising content is becoming more and more, and that’s creating more and [01:13:40] more division. And we’re not seeing it just on social media opinions we’re seeing even in politics. How does someone like [01:13:45] Trump rise to the top polarising, you know, Brexit, polarising? Do you see what I [01:13:50] mean? And that’s the problem because it’s the nuanced thinking that is going to divide us.

Speaker1: It’s my least [01:13:55] favourite thing about social media and arguably the world, because it is [01:14:00] robbing people. They’re allowed, people are allowing. Themselves to be robbed of personal [01:14:05] responsibility. They want to be told what to think. So [01:14:10] someone comes to me. Will breathwork cure my anxiety? I’ll go. [01:14:15] I’ll give you a full, balanced, nuanced answer that says it depends on the root cause. [01:14:20] It depends on x, y, z. They don’t want to know. And they’re like, oh, I just wanted to [01:14:25] hear yes, yes. And it’s the same like I the big podcast that [01:14:30] I do name, not normally in these conversations, but.

Speaker3: You know what I’m talking about. Yeah. Oh [01:14:35] absolutely.

Speaker1: Diary of a CEO. So, um, there is, [01:14:40] there is a breathwork episode by with a guy called James Nester, who has [01:14:45] written arguably the pivotal book in the breathwork space. A fantastic book has done so [01:14:50] much for this space, and he’s a fantastic writer and a fantastic advocate for this work. [01:14:55] However, that podcast creates circumstances for people [01:15:00] where they say things that if you really again dig into the weeds, you go, I can see [01:15:05] how he’s got there, but there’s so much more to it. And again, I think there’s a duty of responsibility [01:15:10] to say to present a fuller picture. So his big one is, you know, 99% [01:15:15] of the population have dysfunctional breathing. I get what he means. But if [01:15:20] we’re talking about diagnosed dysfunctional breathing, it’s closer to 35%. What he actually means is that the remaining [01:15:25] 64% of those could be breathing better. We as a population could be breathing [01:15:30] better. But to sit there outright and say 99% of the population have dysfunctional breathing [01:15:35] is it creates fear in people. The thing is, when.

Speaker4: You’re an expert in anything, you [01:15:40] can critique in a different way.

Speaker3: I mean, I got hate recently. He knows.

Speaker4: This. Yeah, [01:15:45] but but but it’s just the nature, I think when you’re an expert in something, then whatever, when [01:15:50] when you see someone else talking about that, you can, you can pick holes in it because you’re the expert in that [01:15:55] thing I’m quite interested in. It’s obvious just looking at you. It’s obvious you’re in a place of [01:16:00] sort of authenticity, and you seem very comfortable in this space. What do [01:16:05] your previous peers think of you now? Some of them, not understandably. Someone going from a tech [01:16:10] Start-Up business to to this.

Speaker1: It brings up interesting [01:16:15] things for me because I have learned a lesson in myself, arguably [01:16:20] the hard way, over the last couple of years, which is that I social [01:16:25] media played a role in this. My work played a role in this. I, I lived as my [01:16:30] what I used to call breathwork Jamie, which was the persona that I was presenting on [01:16:35] social, the version of me that showed up in my work, which is a real version of me, but it’s not all of me. [01:16:40] And actually, um, I still have friends from my last company that I worked at, my friends [01:16:45] from university. We talk about it, um, [01:16:50] but I would say, actually, there’s a, a version of me, a part of me, um, [01:16:55] that really values not being this, this version of me all the time. [01:17:00] Yeah. I’m able to a bit like what you were saying in terms of the people we meet in London, the network [01:17:05] we have, we’ve got to.

Speaker3: You’ve got.

Speaker1: You. It’s not inauthentic. And I had this a really long conversation [01:17:10] with an amazing musician, very famous musician, about this the other day is not [01:17:15] inauthentic to show up differently in different circumstances. You think [01:17:20] you go home for Christmas, you see your family. That’s a different version of you to the one that goes out on a night out [01:17:25] with your friends that’s not inauthentic. That is different parts of you showing up at different times and parts.

Speaker3: Work is [01:17:30] so pivotal to that. Parts work. Yeah, parts work helps you accept. So I did a lot [01:17:35] with Ella. Ella is my therapist has come on here as well. So it’s like we all have different parts of ourself. And then you basically [01:17:40] when you work with a therapist for example, you see those different parts of yourself, you observe those parts of yourself [01:17:45] and you actually don’t judge parts of yourself. But in some sessions I was also the judge. And that makes [01:17:50] you kind of more accepting to things, and it doesn’t make you try to change so fundamentally who [01:17:55] you are, because we’re always. When I first met Jamie, for example, I was literally like, I have to put in the [01:18:00] work because I have to be this thing. You know, I met Jamie and Louis and all these people, and I [01:18:05] was like, I need to be them. They’re like the beacon of knowledge, and they’re like living and breathing [01:18:10] this, like, wellness thing. And I was like, but then I’m like this established dentist with this. [01:18:15] And I was like, where am I? And then, like, parts work made me realise, like, there are different [01:18:20] parts to myself. And look, don’t get me wrong, I have often thought to myself is the only way to find that [01:18:25] true happiness. To quit it all, sell my practice, move to Costa Rica, live with those jungle [01:18:30] people in this beautiful retreat. Do you know what I mean? And the hummingbird. And then I realised that, you [01:18:35] know, you don’t have to.

Speaker1: It’s awareness and acceptance. Like there’s a big piece of this with this part [01:18:40] stuff. Because I remember I went for dinner with some friends of mine that I used to work with, um, and [01:18:45] I was this was a couple of years ago, and I can have a very dark sense of humour, [01:18:50] and I made this very dark joke a bit close to the line. And one of the guys who I’ve known for a really [01:18:55] long time, he’s a great guy, turned to me and goes, that’s not very on brand. And my heart sank [01:19:00] because that was my that was of my own making, because. I, in [01:19:05] every aspect of my life, was trying to show up as breathwork. Jamie. I was trying to be, you know, present [01:19:10] and calm, balanced and namaste and a bit woo woo. And I [01:19:15] have that side to me. You know, I can draw a tarot card and really get into it. I can have a conversation at [01:19:20] a plant medicine experience and really go into that with someone. And I can also go and watch a rugby match with [01:19:25] my mate, drink a couple of beers, swear a bit. You know, all of these aspects, you know, it’s not a great example. [01:19:30] But yeah, that to me is that to me is authenticity.

Speaker1: Isn’t [01:19:35] it acknowledgement that I’m so, so multifaceted and there’s so many [01:19:40] different parts to me that can show up in different ways when they’re brought out of me by different people. You know, [01:19:45] I’ve always viewed myself as adaptable, but I don’t even think it’s that. It’s just I there’s [01:19:50] a self behind the identity. There is a pure awareness, present awareness [01:19:55] of self that has values, that has, um, an [01:20:00] understanding of the world and how I operate and an energy. And then [01:20:05] there are the layers and the masks that get stacked up on top of that. You know, I was the rugby player, [01:20:10] I was the tech guy, I was the business founder, I was the breathwork guy. I was [01:20:15] the the healer, the therapist. All of these things and all of those have been true at different points. And [01:20:20] it’s actually in trying to reject those. And I was writing the other day about this notion of [01:20:25] if your personal development journey is contingent upon an old self that you are [01:20:30] trying to run away from, then you will continue to suffer just in a different form because that is rejection [01:20:35] of parts. I tried for a very long time to run away from [01:20:40] any kind of entrepreneurial nature, any kind of businessman, any kind of drive, [01:20:45] any kind of ambition, because I thought that hurt me previously, but [01:20:50] that wasn’t what was hurting me previously.

Speaker1: And actually in the last year, and part of what I was saying at the top around my [01:20:55] ambition for this business has come as a result of reintegrating and re [01:21:00] accepting those parts of myself that are driven, that are ambitious, that love big [01:21:05] picture business, creative thinking and being entrepreneurial. And how can I [01:21:10] quite powerfully integrate that with the spiritual, with the emotional, [01:21:15] with the vulnerable and those two together? To me, that lights me up when those two parts of me are aligned, [01:21:20] when I’m in my vulnerability and my authenticity. And I’m also coming up with this huge [01:21:25] idea of where I want to take this business, I feel my best, rather than thinking [01:21:30] it has to be either or, rather than if I’m spiritual. I can’t be ambitious, I can’t want this. I [01:21:35] can’t like material things, all of that stuff. And that’s different for everybody. And [01:21:40] often the judgement that shows up in us is actually a judgement. It’s our shadow. You know, if there’s [01:21:45] a part of me that triggers you, you’re that’s a part of yourself that you are pushing [01:21:50] away and rejecting. Yeah.

Speaker3: And I get that a lot in dentistry. It’s like you can’t be glamorous, fashionable [01:21:55] and creative and then be the science person that’s going to be, like, taken seriously.

Speaker4: Exactly. [01:22:00] That was a beautiful monologue, man.

Speaker3: Thank you. Yeah, I love it. Look, he’s so touched. So, [01:22:05] Jamie, I could literally sit and talk to you for, like, hours and hours. And I want [01:22:10] to end on a note of for those people. And we’ve talked about this before, for those people, especially [01:22:15] dentistry, with being such a, um, stressful career, how can they integrate [01:22:20] very simple breathwork that’s realistic into their daily routine or even [01:22:25] during their time in the dental practice? You know, there’s.

Speaker4: Times Mark was talking about every time we’ve got [01:22:30] this light that makes the cures the filling material. It’s like 20s. [01:22:35] And she was saying she breathe through it. She was saying, every time you push that button, breathe, breathe for that 20s. [01:22:40] And it’s such a brilliant idea because dentists are doing that.

Speaker3: 20 [01:22:45] times a day, 20 times a day.

Speaker4: 20 times a day regulating your breath.

Speaker3: Yeah, but let’s give us a tip.

Speaker1: I’d be really curious [01:22:50] to see if you remember this, because I use you as an example all the time. Um, because [01:22:55] it was a conversation I had with you when we were doing the 1 to 1 work, and you asked me a very similar [01:23:00] question, like, how do I actually make this stick? Like, how does this come into my life? And I said [01:23:05] in the, in the clinic between every client, yeah, you did two, three minutes. Slow [01:23:10] your breath down, don’t scroll, don’t have a chat. Stop, pause and breathe. [01:23:15] And that has now become I always talk about my old client and friend, this dentist [01:23:20] that I worked with. I presented her this example of of basically breathing breaks and actually [01:23:25] making use of the dead time. I was in a cab on the way here, stuck in traffic. I’d [01:23:30] been busy, I was doing a few emails, and I was like, actually, no. I want to feel quite calm and present coming into this. [01:23:35] I’m going to do five minutes of slow, steady breathing. So for me, that applies in every [01:23:40] aspect of life. You know, in between meetings, in between calls [01:23:45] on the tube. This is so beautifully accessible and as a [01:23:50] result, pivotal because you’ve got no excuse. You don’t have to. It’s great if you can. [01:23:55] And if you do, sit down, carve out ten 15 minutes in the morning throughout the day, sit in [01:24:00] your lotus pose and do your breath work.

Speaker1: Fantastic. Really? For practice, because you’re cultivating that [01:24:05] additional stillness and creating time for yourself, that it becomes infinitely easier [01:24:10] if your nervous system is regulated. If your nervous system is dysregulating, you’re in overdrive. Carving [01:24:15] out that time is going to feel impossible. So start small. Build it up. Compound. As you said, [01:24:20] pushing that button so many times a day. If you breathe through every single one of those for 20s, [01:24:25] you’re going to build up some some compound interest. And that to me is the power because you’re redirecting. [01:24:30] You’re taking yourself off autopilot. And that to me is is at the core of my business [01:24:35] at the moment is creating tools and techniques and experiences [01:24:40] to take people off autopilot, because that is where things get tricky. That’s where we burn out, that’s where [01:24:45] we face challenges, and that’s where we can come back to actually this vicious versus virtuous cycle [01:24:50] of autonomy. Self-actualisation creating your own reality [01:24:55] or living on autopilot, burning out, realising too late that you’ve burnt out. Resetting [01:25:00] the dial, going again. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that would be the biggest one, I think, for, for people [01:25:05] listening to this is where in your day, as it currently stands, can you integrate this [01:25:10] rather than trying to change how your day is playing out? And funnily enough, if you can do that, [01:25:15] you will change the way that your day plays out.

Speaker3: Yeah, I love that so much. You can find Jamie. As I said, [01:25:20] um, the breath space on Instagram and TikTok. Is that your TikTok handle or is it?

Speaker1: No, I’m so [01:25:25] lazy with TikTok. I have to be honest, I.

Speaker3: Love his TikToks, actually. Um, but thank you so [01:25:30] much. It’s been so incredible and as always, so inspiring. I’ve never seen Payman get emotional, [01:25:35] so we know that we’ve done well here. Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. [01:25:40]

Speaker1: But Hackney, that’s what Hackney used to be like. It was not mental health, not essential. But [00:00:05] we had the Homerton, the um, hospital. There was a lot of them there. And so we used to see a lot of patients like [00:00:10] that. Yeah, just strange ones. I had a patient propose to me once. Didn’t [00:00:15] that happen all the time? No, no. Again, that was in Hackney.

Speaker2: This [00:00:20] is Dental. Leaders. The [00:00:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:30] Your hosts [00:00:35] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker1: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:40] Doctor Pete Nikolovski to the podcast. Pete, you’re, um, kind of under the radar [00:00:45] kind of guy. That’s actually why I wanted you on this. This pod. Because [00:00:50] your work is wonderful. I look at your your work all the time. It [00:00:55] gets sort of. You get a feeling sometimes when something’s so natural and [00:01:00] yet you’re not out there. Um. Very much. And, um, I wanted to. To meet you, [00:01:05] to tell you the truth is to go through all of that. And I’m sure there’s loads of people who’ll be interested in you. [00:01:10] Um, Pete works at Dental now, but we’ve come across each other at [00:01:15] Sardinia House as well. Um, we generally tend to start with, um, backstory, [00:01:20] where we born. What kind of kid were you? That sort of stuff. Right. Yeah. I was actually [00:01:25] born up the road from here. Um, probably 500m away. Belsize Park? Yes, literally. [00:01:30] Um, there was a maternity hospital. No longer there. Now it’s a block of flats, but, [00:01:35] yeah, 1973. That’s where I popped into the world. Yeah. What kind of kid were you? There’ll [00:01:40] be two stories about that. There’s my version and my parents version. I think I [00:01:45] was a good kid. My parents disagree. Yeah, they think, um, they think it was quite naughty. [00:01:50] But, uh, I think I worked hard, I think I was generally pretty good myself. So [00:01:55] brothers and sisters, one younger brother, three and a half years younger.

Speaker1: Mhm. Um, [00:02:00] we get on all right. He’s okay. And your parents are Polish. [00:02:05] You tell me. Yeah. Dad. Um, dad was born here. Um, he [00:02:10] came over. Well, he he was born here. His parents came over during the war. Um, after [00:02:15] the war, um, and then my mum was born over in Poland. She came over here in 71 [00:02:20] when she married my father. And were there any dentists in the family or anything? Why? Dentistry. No [00:02:25] dentists in the family. But my dad, um, basically, my [00:02:30] dad got terrible career advice when he was younger, and he didn’t [00:02:35] want me to have the same problems as he had when he was in his 20s. He went into chemistry because [00:02:40] he liked chemistry, and there was no one in his family or at school or anywhere, [00:02:45] it seemed, that could tell him that chemistry is a really shit career. And as soon as you [00:02:50] have a family, chemistry is not going to pay the bills. So he wanted me to get into something that a [00:02:55] I liked, b I was good at, and c ultimately would be a career for life where I could support my family. [00:03:00] So what did your dad end up doing? He ended up doing having his own company. [00:03:05] Um, so he did chemistry for a bit. But then when my brother and myself were born, that that [00:03:10] went. So he then worked in sales for a bit and about 30 [00:03:15] odd years ago set up his own company doing drug trials.

Speaker1: Um, so, you know, medical testing [00:03:20] if something works or if something doesn’t, you should put me in touch with him. Is he still working? No. He retired a few [00:03:25] years ago. Having to do a bunch of those right now. Oh, really? Yeah. [00:03:30] Um, so what were you thinking of? Any other career choice [00:03:35] other than dentistry? Yeah, a stunt man. No, [00:03:40] no. I’m joking. Um, no no, no international DJ yeah, yeah. Um, [00:03:45] no. From the age of 14. Dentistry. It was why, though? I [00:03:50] liked. I’ve always liked science. I’ve always liked medical things. I’ve always liked artistic stuff. Working with my [00:03:55] hands. They’re the cliche answers that you give at dental school for the interview, aren’t they? Yeah, but they’re [00:04:00] true. And I wanted what my dad wanted for me, which was a career for. For life. [00:04:05] Something I could travel with, something, you know, security. And were you the top [00:04:10] of your class kind of kid? That that at school? Yeah. Not far off it at [00:04:15] dental school. Closer to the at the bottom end. I [00:04:20] failed my second year. Um, um, because I discovered, [00:04:25] um, university life was quite a lot of fun in most cases, certainly in the first few years. [00:04:30] And did you grow up around Belsize Park as well? No, no. Um, north London. Barnet. [00:04:35] Um, did you did you not think of leaving London for university? No, I [00:04:40] quite like London. Yeah, I know there’s there’s a lot more apart from London in this country, [00:04:45] but I’ve always really liked it and I wanted to study there.

Speaker1: And at the time King’s was, [00:04:50] I think, number one rated dental school in the country. And I quite liked the idea of [00:04:55] going there. So. But then did you live away or what did you do? No, I actually lived at home. [00:05:00] So would you give your son or daughter that same advice to do that? Because I wouldn’t. [00:05:05] The same advice to stay at home and study. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know that it limits them [00:05:10] in some respects, but financially it turned out to be a good thing because I didn’t leave dental school with huge bills. [00:05:15] Um, and ultimately, knowing the way I was behaving myself, it probably, [00:05:20] probably helped me to pass my exams. So I’ve got my son. My son’s in A-levels [00:05:25] now. Yeah. And he wants to be do engineering, right. And we live well. [00:05:30] He goes to school in South Kensington and Imperial College is it’s like [00:05:35] a ten second walk from his school, and loads of his friends are going to [00:05:40] go there. They’re going to try and get in there. And I’m telling him, look, come on, you’re going to live another [00:05:45] dimension of your life. Now, that said, when I, when I, when I was at your stage, [00:05:50] uh, looking well when, when we’re doing A-levels, I also wanted to stay in London. [00:05:55] Didn’t get the grades.

Speaker1: Ended up in Cardiff. Um, so I understand the sentiment. [00:06:00] Like every 17, 18 year old thinks they know it. All right, so I thought I knew it all. [00:06:05] I had my friends in London, I knew what London was about. But leaving was wonderful. Like the whole [00:06:10] dimension of Cardiff and all the people I met there and everything. Um, so [00:06:15] now I’m giving my son the advice. I’m saying don’t even put Imperial down as one of the choices. I mean, it’s one of the best [00:06:20] universities in the world, though, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, the experience of university and more than [00:06:25] the education, right? I mean, I think I got that anyway because I went to [00:06:30] an all boys school. Um, which one, which one? Um, Finchley. Okay. In uh in Finchley. Yeah. [00:06:35] Um, and so I hung out with all boys, went [00:06:40] to the pub with all boys. There was a girls school up the road. Occasionally we had a little fling with one of them, but it was all, [00:06:45] you know, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys. Yeah, all from that area, all from the same backgrounds. [00:06:50] And then I went to university and suddenly there was people from everywhere. There was, there was girls [00:06:55] and lots of them, and there was, there was guys from all over the country, different backgrounds [00:07:00] everywhere, different countries, all studying different things. So it was really, really an eye opener. [00:07:05] That’s kind of where I found myself.

Speaker1: And that’s even though I was in London, I still feel that [00:07:10] I got a really good experience there for certainly for, for that aspect of [00:07:15] things. So, so I went to a boys school and, um, I’d class [00:07:20] girls as Martians. Back then they were a bit. Yeah. I used to think. I [00:07:25] used to think that if you were got managed to get a girl to kiss you, you’d have [00:07:30] to fool her into it. You know what I mean? Like that. That that’s how little we understood. [00:07:35] I still do, I still do now. I have [00:07:40] to get my wife drunk. That’s happening. But. But again, my advice [00:07:45] to my kids, or what I wanted for my kids, wasn’t that I wanted them in a mixed school. Yeah. How do you feel [00:07:50] about that? My kids are in mixed school. Are probably an active decision. Probably. [00:07:55] Probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about it. They’re both very comfortable now with boys [00:08:00] and girls. Exactly. They can talk to them and they don’t get all embarrassed about it. Exactly. Whereas we were like, shit, [00:08:05] it’s a girl. Yeah. What are we gonna do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it’s a good decision. [00:08:10] Do they go to the same school? Yeah. Nice. Nice. Um, tell me about your Dental school experience. [00:08:15] Um. It was good at first. A [00:08:20] lot of fun. Um, but I left King’s pretty [00:08:25] bitter about the whole experience. Actually, I really didn’t like it very much.

Speaker1: I found it very cliquey. I [00:08:30] found it really. I mean, they tried to hold me back in my finals for no other [00:08:35] reason than politics. They said I wasn’t a strong enough candidate to pass my [00:08:40] exams, my finals, and they didn’t want me entering in case I didn’t pass. Yeah. Um, [00:08:45] because ultimately there’s a competition between Dental schools to have like the highest [00:08:50] pass rate in particularly with the London ones back in the day. Um, so they, [00:08:55] they fabricated some stuff. Um, they said that I hadn’t passed all my coursework, that I hadn’t [00:09:00] attended enough lectures, all this sort of thing to try and lower my grades. And I had [00:09:05] to argue with them for, for weeks and weeks and weeks just to let you sit, to show [00:09:10] them that I had attended everything that I had passed my coursework. I said, if I haven’t passed my coursework, what’s what [00:09:15] is this? You know, this has been marked, this has passed. I went round to all the heads of department and gradually [00:09:20] sort of managed to win them all over. Found out it was actually the Dean and, [00:09:25] um, one of the other heads of department that had sort of they just didn’t like me for whatever [00:09:30] reason, I don’t know. But I got in. Did the finals passed? No problem at all. But [00:09:35] yeah, I left King’s having um, I’d say not not brilliant thoughts about it, saying I’d [00:09:40] never return.

Speaker1: You know, I didn’t I didn’t ever want to go back there that day [00:09:45] when you leave school and you sort of turn round and emotionally look at the gates, you know, it’s like the end of an [00:09:50] era. King’s last day got my finals, walked out, ran and [00:09:55] what I mean, okay, you were never going to go back to King’s, but did you decide you’re never going to do an exam again? [00:10:00] Did you decide you’re not going to specialise? Nothing like that. No, no I did, it was King’s based. It was King’s. Yeah. [00:10:05] And it was only because of the, the Clickiness. And it was the kind of place, you know, we used to sign [00:10:10] if one of your mates wasn’t going to be in, would sign their name in the register. King’s was the sort of place if [00:10:15] you sign someone’s name and someone saw you, they’d rub it out. You know, the other students, there was just no camaraderie [00:10:20] there at all. No camaraderie. It was it wasn’t a nice place for me. Yeah. I think, you know, [00:10:25] we need to have this conversation more about Dental school, the hierarchy of [00:10:30] that. Um, I’m not sure. I mean, we’re sort of very similar [00:10:35] era, um, but I’m not sure exactly what happens now, [00:10:40] but just based on, you know, the evolution of the course. I mean, I’m quite [00:10:45] interested in the Dental course has not changed much since my day. In your day. Yeah. [00:10:50] And so what that tells me is that maybe the hierarchy thing hasn’t changed much either.

Speaker1: I’m sure [00:10:55] it hasn’t. And, you know, your whole life is in the hands of 1 or 2 people. For personally, [00:11:00] I had A11 altercation with one member of staff in the third year. The [00:11:05] guy made it his mission to make my life hell after that. This is, I think, what probably happened to me as well. [00:11:10] And it was a funny thing. It was, it was it was, uh, on clinic. I took an impression. [00:11:15] I thought it was a fine impression. Showed him he threw it across the clinic, said, this [00:11:20] is rubbish. I took the same impression, took it to another, um, demonstrator, [00:11:25] and he said, yeah, fine. So I carried on, but he saw me do [00:11:30] that and he was not happy about that. Yeah. Um, now my point [00:11:35] is this that one teacher can solidly [00:11:40] affect what happens to you in Dental school and under the guise [00:11:45] of dentists are under pressure. So we’ll put some pressure on the students [00:11:50] to see if they can manage, which probably is real, that there is some of that. I’ve got no problem with that. [00:11:55] Yeah, yeah. But under that guise, some people get an awful experience through dental school [00:12:00] that there’s a degree of abuse in it, you know. Yeah. And I mean some and some of the, the lecturers will [00:12:05] get a little power trip from it as well. Yeah. It’s human nature.

Speaker1: Right. When you put a lot of power [00:12:10] in someone’s hands. Yeah. Um, did you party or did you study? Were you which which [00:12:15] one of those students were you both? Oh, first. First few years party [00:12:20] too much? Yeah. Um, failed my second year. Yeah. Had to reset. Um, [00:12:25] came up with the most fabulous story to get myself back in, which [00:12:30] we won’t go into now. Um, but it involved a lot of lies and deceit. [00:12:35] Um. Um, and then after [00:12:40] that, after after the failure, I sort of my, my career flashed before my eyes or lack of potential [00:12:45] career. And then I, then I buckled down. Then I did actually work quite hard in the clinical years. Mhm. [00:12:50] And did you feel like you took more to the hands on than to the, you know the learning. [00:12:55] Yeah. Completely completely. I mean that’s one thing they don’t emphasise in dental school enough is it. Yeah. [00:13:00] You know it’s actually a hands on career. Does it really matter if you know [00:13:05] what something looks like under a microscope. Does it matter if you can differentiate between different types of [00:13:10] cancer or something that you’re never going to need to use that? But yet we spend months and months learning it. What [00:13:15] they should be teaching is. Be good with your hands. Yeah. You know, I’m [00:13:20] quite interested. I left having not done a bridge prep. I left having not done a surgical extraction. I [00:13:25] left having done, I think, one veneer, this sort of thing.

Speaker1: And then it’s like, well, here you are, Pete. There you are. [00:13:30] Yeah. You’re now a dentist. You’re not. So I’m quite interested in this question of which bits [00:13:35] of the course would you remove and what would you add. Because [00:13:40] someone, someone in your year went on to become an oral pathologist or something. Yeah. And [00:13:45] the basics that he got taught about looking under a microscope for dysplasia [00:13:50] or whatever were important to that. Now, should the whole course have to go [00:13:55] through that, I see, I think not, no, I think it’s not. You’re not getting, [00:14:00] um, a bachelors in pathology. It’s a bachelors in dentistry. Yeah. So [00:14:05] it should be geared towards dentistry. It should be geared towards doing all the [00:14:10] things you do in daily practice. That’s what I think. I mean, I was at a meeting last night and we were talking about [00:14:15] bleaching, teaching of bleaching. Yeah. In dental school. And it literally [00:14:20] has not changed since our day when it was illegal. And if you remember. [00:14:25] Yeah. Um, illegal and, um, or I don’t know about you, I got maybe [00:14:30] one hour on internal bleaching. I don’t think I even got that, to be honest. Yeah. No. And [00:14:35] and yet we get taught. I mean, I think we spent a couple of terms on full dentures [00:14:40] or something, you know? Yeah. Um, and you know what, what the [00:14:45] what what do dentists see or what are the growth areas in, in dentistry right [00:14:50] now? It’s aesthetics, it’s orthodontics, it’s implants.

Speaker1: Yeah. Those sort of three things. [00:14:55] Dental school doesn’t prepare you for any of those. You know, it’s it’s it’s [00:15:00] quite interesting that I think it still prepares you for a, for a life in the NHS, doesn’t it. Yeah. That’s [00:15:05] true. You know, amalgam fillings and dentures. Not for long. Not [00:15:10] for long. Yeah. But yeah that’s right. And they’re not for long. That will be gone soon won’t it. Um, [00:15:15] the dental aspect of the NHS anyway. Yeah. What did you do next. Vte, VTE and [00:15:20] then um, general practice straight away after that. Um NHS for. [00:15:25] Seven, eight years, maybe even longer. [00:15:30] Actually eight years. Yeah. I started I started sort of weaving the, the private into the NHS, [00:15:35] but I was probably pure NHS for five years in Hackney. [00:15:40] Well, which, um, Pre-Olympic regeneration [00:15:45] was one hell of a place to work I bet. Um, we used to see some incredible [00:15:50] things. But really good thing about Hackney. You could actually make mistakes. No [00:15:55] one complained because they wanted to take the tooth out in the first place. That was the thing. We took out so [00:16:00] many teeth in Hackney and they’d come in, they’d, doc, can you take the tooth out? And I’d look at it and go, do you know what? I reckon [00:16:05] I can probably save that one. And if you saved it, you’re the hero. If you couldn’t save [00:16:10] it, it took it out.

Speaker1: That’s what the patient wanted in the first place. So it was a great place to actually learn dentistry. [00:16:15] So interested in this question. I get asked a lot by new young [00:16:20] graduates what they should do next. Yeah. And I think a lot of us give [00:16:25] the advice based on what we did. So if [00:16:30] if if a young dentist asks you now what’s the best thing to do? Would you, would you say, [00:16:35] go and do a few years in the NHS, make your mistakes? Yeah. Learn how to be a dentist because [00:16:40] dental school, as we’ve just discussed, doesn’t really prepare you to be a dentist. Yeah, but why does the why is the [00:16:45] NHS the best place to get further? Uh, because you can make mistakes. Because, well, [00:16:50] you can make fewer mistakes. You can get sorry. You can make more mistakes. You can make in [00:16:55] private. You can’t make mistakes because patients are different in private. But a [00:17:00] strange thing to say really, right. If you really break it down because patients [00:17:05] are patients, patients are humans. I know again, I’m going back to my own experience. No, [00:17:10] I get it. I completely get it. By the way, maybe things are different. I understand exactly what you’re saying. Yeah, [00:17:15] but that the notion that we can make mistakes on NHS patients, but not [00:17:20] on private patients. Let me rephrase that. Let me rephrase it. The expectation is [00:17:25] different. That’s true.

Speaker1: So the standards are different. That’s true. So you can get away [00:17:30] with more. Yeah. Yeah. You may not be as gifted with your hands. The [00:17:35] NHS system will allow you to still practice as a dentist that you may not be able to do private [00:17:40] work so well. So that’s really what I mean. Not mistakes as such, but okay. Exactly. You mean [00:17:45] I might take that one out later? No. I think we all understand what you’re what you’re saying. And it’s [00:17:50] a very common thing. People say, yeah, but I break it down so they. Yeah. Look, I know, I know a [00:17:55] dentist, he hasn’t yet qualified, right? But he’s already got himself [00:18:00] onto a specialist programme in the US. Um, which starts one day after [00:18:05] he qualifies. Yeah. Which is interesting because he’s going to find that very, very, very hard. [00:18:10] Yeah. But in the US their advice is go run towards a speciality [00:18:15] as soon as possible. Okay. Um, and this is why I’m asking because here it’s very sort of [00:18:20] taken wisdom as, yeah, spend 4 or 5 years in the NHS, make [00:18:25] some mistakes, learn what you like and then but it’s not necessarily the the right move for everyone. [00:18:30] No. It’s like taking a gap year isn’t it. Yeah. If you take a gap year quite often people then don’t go to university [00:18:35] afterwards because they’re too much having too much fun in the gap year. Um, whereas the Americans, as you, as you say, [00:18:40] they’re quite geared towards the future straight away work.

Speaker1: Once you’ve got there, [00:18:45] you’re there. What what did you learn from your first couple of bosses? [00:18:50] Because I think who your first couple of bosses are is a real makes a real difference to your [00:18:55] sort of launchpad into the world of work. My first boss, [00:19:00] I probably in Hackney. I probably can’t even remember. I don’t really yeah, I [00:19:05] wasn’t a great experience, just not particularly memorable. I mean, [00:19:10] I stayed there for five years. Yeah. Um, so there must have been. Did you learn what not to do? Because there’s [00:19:15] a lot of that, right? There is a lot of that. How to how not to treat your your team, how not to [00:19:20] whatever the team. Yeah. I mean, I think with the team, it’s always best to try and be friends. Yeah. Um. [00:19:25] Yeah. There’s no point taking your stresses out on your team. [00:19:30] Yeah. At the end of the day, they’re your right hand aren’t they. You can’t you can’t be horrible to them. So I’ve [00:19:35] always tried to be nice to the team. I think if you ask any anyone I’ve ever worked with they’ll probably probably [00:19:40] back that up. Really? Always. Yeah. We go out for drinks. I try to be their friends as well. You know, work [00:19:45] is work, but outside of work we can be mates. That’s. That’s kind of the way I’ve [00:19:50] always tried to do it. When I had my own place.

Speaker1: Um, we kept the same staff for eight years because I [00:19:55] tried to look after them. I think that’s a very important thing. So. Okay, those [00:20:00] first five years of making your errors on the NHS, let’s move on then. What happened next? [00:20:05] Um, then I went into, well, change practice, but it was still predominantly [00:20:10] NHS. But I started putting a little bit of private in, you know, the odd white filling and this sort of thing, [00:20:15] getting very excited about doing posterior composites. Um, and then gradually [00:20:20] as time went on, just more and more private. By the time I got to about [00:20:25] 2007 eight, I was all private at that stage. And that’s I’ve stayed [00:20:30] so coming on for, what, 18, 19 years? Private now that’s still in London, [00:20:35] London. And then I went to Australia for eight years, did private work [00:20:40] in Australia, and then came back here in 2015 and back into private here. [00:20:45] Ah, so tell me the story about Australia. It was, [00:20:50] um, my wife. Yeah. Her idea. She’s Australian. Um, [00:20:55] she. When we got married, she said to me, you. In fact, on my wedding day, I think she said, you’ve [00:21:00] got five years left in London. So would it be good if she said it the day before? Yeah, [00:21:05] that would be nice. But to me it was just a challenge. I thought, all right, well, I’ve got five years to change her mind, [00:21:10] which didn’t work. Um, we went over there in 2007, um, [00:21:15] looking for the better life.

Speaker1: Um, she wanted to have children in Australia. [00:21:20] Where in Queensland. Okay. Yeah, I that were her family or they are, um, [00:21:25] little place called the Gold Coast. Um, south of Brisbane. Um, [00:21:30] yeah, I was, I was resistant, I was reluctant to go because I’d been there on holiday and I really [00:21:35] didn’t like it particularly, but, um, we tried to go to Sydney first but found it very, very difficult [00:21:40] to get a job in Sydney at the time. So, um, ended up on the Gold Coast. You [00:21:45] didn’t like Australia or you didn’t like Brisbane or you didn’t like Gold Coast? I didn’t like the Gold Coast. I probably would [00:21:50] have been quite happy in Sydney because I like cities and Sydney’s. Sydney’s very nice. [00:21:55] But the Gold Coast is, um, it’s it’s a retirement village, basically. Okay. It’s, um, [00:22:00] they call it in Australia. God’s waiting room. Um, God. So, yeah, [00:22:05] it wasn’t for me. Not. Not my kind of place. And you opened your own practice there. Bought one. Bought an existing [00:22:10] one? Yeah. So what’s culturally the difference, like in the Dental [00:22:15] world? Not much. It’s all private, though, right? Yeah. I mean, teeth are [00:22:20] more or less teeth any way you go. And dentistry, I think if you’re if you’re living in and working in a [00:22:25] fairly sort of affluent first world place, I think dentistry is more or less the same, but [00:22:30] so so I speak to distributors.

Speaker1: Yeah. And they say, yeah. When, when, when you, when you [00:22:35] do a course in Australia, all the dentists come and buy everything and they’re into education [00:22:40] more than the dentists here. Really. Okay. Yeah. You didn’t find that. Didn’t find that. No. No. [00:22:45] Not more go getting sort of in the dental way. I don’t think so. I mean, they’re more muscular [00:22:50] than British dentists. They actually they’re actually muscular. You [00:22:55] know, they all go to the gym before work and this sort of thing, which most British dentists don’t do. Uh huh. Um, [00:23:00] but other than that, there’s basically the same. Okay. Yeah. So okay. Then your reflections [00:23:05] on Australia, what was it like? Did you not like it. Yeah. [00:23:10] No, no I didn’t it wasn’t for me. Um, a whole series of things went wrong. There probably [00:23:15] shouldn’t have gone there in the first place. But it was, you know, I did it for my wife. And, [00:23:20] um. Do you not want to expand on that? I’d rather not. You [00:23:25] don’t have to, because she’s going to watch this. She. Yeah. Um. [00:23:30] So what not to do with work? What? The other things. The [00:23:35] things that went wrong. Yeah. I mean, the economy took a massive downturn there when we were there. Oh. [00:23:40] Um, so business went really bad. Um, it happened to be at the same time as interest rates [00:23:45] were very high, etc. more or less. What’s happening here right now? Um, and I was heavily invested [00:23:50] there.

Speaker1: I bought a house, bought a business and ended up almost overgeared. Yeah, [00:23:55] almost ended up going bankrupt, basically. Um, so that will always leave a sour taste [00:24:00] in your mouth. So on reflection, do you feel like you did something you would have done something [00:24:05] differently, like if you, if you had to do it all over again, would you not not buy the [00:24:10] house apart from not going in the first place? Yeah. Um, no, I’d probably go to [00:24:15] Sydney. I would, I would insist on the security of a big city. Yeah. [00:24:20] Um, I just found that the smaller places it was, it was just too tough. Too tough. And do you feel like you [00:24:25] made any errors as far as. First time principal. First time business owner. We all do, right? We [00:24:30] make it. I’m still making massive mistakes. I made massive mistakes today. I [00:24:35] really did. Having you on there. I’m joking. No, I already made my mistakes when I was doing [00:24:40] the NHS. No, no, no, but the business errors, um. I’m sure, of course, of course. [00:24:45] No, but I know. But on reflection, do you think that they were the things that caused this, this business not to be? No, [00:24:50] no. Absolutely not. Um, it was just a massive down. Everyone in the area had the same problems. It’s [00:24:55] macroeconomic. Yeah. I to be honest, I think, I mean, I wasn’t experienced, [00:25:00] but I don’t think I made too many mistakes as a principal because I had the old principal [00:25:05] on hand as an associate.

Speaker1: So he was there also to guide things and stuff. So I don’t think that, no, [00:25:10] I think it was outside of my control. See anyone on paper you’d [00:25:15] imagine, you know, Australia, the coast, on paper, on paper it sounds amazing. [00:25:20] It does, it does. And yet you prefer London I do. Okay. [00:25:25] It’s you go to Australia and everyone thinks the way Australia is sold to you [00:25:30] is sunshine beaches, chilled out and beer. Right. Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. You [00:25:35] go there and as soon as you get there they’re like, don’t go in the sun. Wear [00:25:40] wear factor 50. Whenever you leave the house, wear a hat, wear sunglasses, wear a shirt [00:25:45] and don’t and sit and sit in the shade. So but I came here for the sun. [00:25:50] I was like, are you going to get cancer? So. So don’t go in the sun. So that’s the first myth, you know, it [00:25:55] dispels. You can’t go there and enjoy what you want to go there to, to enjoy [00:26:00] it. Um, then there’s the beer thing, right? Oh, God. It’s [00:26:05] very, very it’s terrible in Australia, the beer itself, the beer is terrible, but it’s [00:26:10] it’s so regulated as well. Like if someone if you’re in a pub and [00:26:15] you decide to go to another pub. They look at you and say, you’ve had a few, haven’t [00:26:20] you? Oh, and they won’t let you in.

Speaker1: You could be good as gold. You’re not. You’re not misbehaving. But [00:26:25] they’ll simply look at you and go, no, we’re not letting you in. Mhm. So you think to yourself well I’ll go somewhere [00:26:30] else but no no no no they’re on the walkie talkies to all the other places saying if [00:26:35] a guy in a white shirt and red trousers turns up with a British accent, don’t let him in, really, this sort [00:26:40] of thing. And that’s particularly bad in Sydney, actually. Oh, really? Yeah. So this sort of chilled out [00:26:45] lifestyle that’s, that’s sold to you as being very Australian. I didn’t find that at all. I found that they’re [00:26:50] they’re about, you know, they’re as anal as everybody else and in some ways more so. So [00:26:55] had you started to do the cosmetic work, the composite work by [00:27:00] this time or not? I started doing that in, um, probably about [00:27:05] 2004, 2005, um, with limited success. But I thought at the time [00:27:10] it was pretty good. I looked at some of my photos from 20 years ago and no, [00:27:15] it’s not good, but I started. I started dabbling with it, experimenting with it as an alternative [00:27:20] to porcelain. Yeah, because it wasn’t very fashionable back then. No, it wasn’t fashionable [00:27:25] at all. I mean, I think back to we started with Cosmo in 2007, and [00:27:30] I was I was thinking about this. I was looking at some of our old, uh, marketing pieces.

Speaker1: The [00:27:35] whole word composite veneer or composite bonding didn’t [00:27:40] really exist. Didn’t even exist. No. Didn’t we? The way we used to describe what [00:27:45] this course was, was like success with composite or something like this. Um, but [00:27:50] you were you started dabbling. Started dabbling. Yeah. Yeah. Got into it slowly. [00:27:55] Um, but like I say, it didn’t really take off because I think also there’s been a change [00:28:00] in, in British patience, for sure. Back in, you know, 20 years ago, people [00:28:05] didn’t care so much. Yeah. There wasn’t Instagram, there wasn’t Facebook, there wasn’t [00:28:10] all the horrible reality TV shows with, you know, dazzling White. There was nothing like that for people [00:28:15] to look at and go, well, that’s what I want. So it was something that we didn’t do very often anyway. It was very [00:28:20] niche, wasn’t it? I think there were cosmetic dentists in the West End. Um, [00:28:25] there were, you know, rich people or, or celebrities who used to get their [00:28:30] teeth done. But there wasn’t this situation where, you know, your waitress is wearing Invisalign. [00:28:35] No. Or whatever, you know, absolutely not. Um, so, okay, moving [00:28:40] moving forward. You came back to the UK. Was your wife [00:28:45] annoyed? Must have been still. Is he still there? Still [00:28:50] talking, still there? Yeah. If we have an argument ever. It’s about that. It’s always about [00:28:55] that. Yeah. And that’s I mean that’s one of the things you hadn’t had your kids yet or you had.

Speaker1: We had them in [00:29:00] Australia. Oh okay. Okay. Yeah. So big change for them as well right. Yeah. [00:29:05] I mean their kids are they adapted to it very well. They came back aged seven and four and [00:29:10] um within two weeks they’d lost their Australian accent. So it was quite, quite remarkable. And [00:29:15] then did you decide you’re going to be an associate going forward? And maybe you had [00:29:20] no choice at the beginning? Certainly. But what are your views on that now, though? Are you thinking maybe you’ll you’ll do [00:29:25] your own practice, or did it leave a bad taste in your mouth? Or how how are you thinking about practice ownership? [00:29:30] Yeah, I probably wouldn’t do practice ownership again. I found it hard. [00:29:35] It was when business was good, business was good when business was bad, which was the final [00:29:40] three years about being there. It was horrible. It was the worst pain, the sleepless nights. It was having [00:29:45] to pay everyone before you pay yourself. It was horrible, you know. So I was yeah, I [00:29:50] don’t think I’d do business ownership that way again. Yeah, certainly not as a principle. I think if, you know, [00:29:55] it’s I think it’s one of the most painful things in the world to work your ass off and lose [00:30:00] money. Yeah. And with, with this first six years. Yeah. [00:30:05] Working the hardest I’ve ever. Much harder than I’m working now and [00:30:10] losing money and, yeah. About to lose our houses and all those sort of things.

Speaker1: Especially [00:30:15] if you’re good at what you do as well. Sure. So, okay, you’ve got a wing if you’re winging [00:30:20] it. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah quite quite. But if you know what you’re doing, if you’re, you know, it’s it’s it’s painful, [00:30:25] it’s painful. It is. It really is. But the, you know Elon Musk said something about entrepreneurship. [00:30:30] He said you have to have a massive appetite for pain. Yeah. It refused that way. [00:30:35] So you got an associate job. [00:30:40] Yes. Where was that? The first one was um, down in near Battersea. [00:30:45] Wandsworth. That sort of way. Fully private, fully private, lasted about I think it was about [00:30:50] four weeks because I was doing nothing. Okay. Sitting on my bum, not enough patience, [00:30:55] no patience, and just sitting on my bum watching TV the whole time. So it didn’t last very [00:31:00] long. Um, then I got another one very similar, I think that was in the West End, [00:31:05] somewhere in Harley Street and Wimpole Street. Um, was sold the dream. Come [00:31:10] and join us. You know, we’ve got loads of patients. The implant guys leaving. You’ll be taking over his [00:31:15] list day one. No patients, no implant list. Day [00:31:20] two. Same. Day three. Same. That was the end of that one. Um, [00:31:25] had you done implant training by this point? Yeah, I did, I’d done I’ve done [00:31:30] quite a few hundred implants. I’ve actually got a diploma in implants. So I was doing that’s what I was trying [00:31:35] to get into at that stage in 2015, I was trying to be an implant dentist more than anything. [00:31:40]

Speaker1: Um, so I was looking for places that could offer me an implant list or at least a lot of [00:31:45] patients that, you know, for consults and stuff that, um, but yeah, I found [00:31:50] that quite difficult to, to get into, but then, um, 20, I think [00:31:55] it was 16. I had an interview at Sardinia House, um, got the job there, [00:32:00] general dentistry, but a bit of implant on the side that was great. Stayed there for quite a few years. [00:32:05] That was a nice place to work. Amit. Amit. Great guy. Good guy. [00:32:10] Yeah. Nice, honest, honest guy. Yeah, yeah. No bullshit. Good. Solid. Solid practitioner. [00:32:15] Good. Good pair of hands. Knows what he’s talking about. And just a yeah, good person [00:32:20] to work with and work for. Where did you do the implant training in Australia. Oh did you. [00:32:25] Yeah. What what kind of amount of education was it. Was it like 18, 18 months [00:32:30] diploma course. Oh wow. So we were going for implants. So it [00:32:35] was university based. It was it was a proper, proper course. Yeah. So the [00:32:40] transition from guy trying to become an implant dentist to [00:32:45] what we see now, um, but. Oh, I should have I should have said [00:32:50] that your your account doctor Pete. Right. Doctor Pete, 1973 oh 1973. [00:32:55] Yep. Yeah. For anyone who doesn’t know, check that one.

Speaker1: Doctor Pete, 1973. When did [00:33:00] the transition come? 20 1718, [00:33:05] probably to talk me through it because it’s very different being an implant dentist [00:33:10] than the dentist you are now. It was when I started working at Ru um, [00:33:15] 20, I think I started at 20th April 2017. Um, it was just general [00:33:20] dentistry at that point. It was new. It was called the the neem tree at that stage I remember. [00:33:25] Um, and it was there was no in Wandsworth that one, uh, Fleet Street or that one here. [00:33:30] Yeah. Um, so that, that was, that was then and they were just a general dental practice at that [00:33:35] stage. So I went there because it was going to be a bit of this bit of that, a few implants here and there, [00:33:40] a bit of everything. Um, and then what gradually started happening there. Once it became [00:33:45] Ru, they started focusing on cosmetic more and more. So um, and [00:33:50] then that’s what started coming through the door. Um, and everyone was coming in and asking for [00:33:55] composite bonding. Invisalign, bleaching. And so that’s where the transition happened. I mean, it really happened [00:34:00] when one of the girls said, um, Pete, you should get Invisalign. Invisalign, [00:34:05] um, Instagram. Um, I was, what, 44, 45? And I said, I’m not getting Instagram. [00:34:10] You know, I’ve got Facebook. And they were like, no, no, no, it’s completely different. You don’t you don’t understand. [00:34:15] You could advertise your work on, on Instagram.

Speaker1: So I did reluctantly, [00:34:20] I just I said to him, look, it’s going to be another thing I look at on my phone every day, isn’t it? I’ve got enough things I look at. Um, [00:34:25] but they persuaded me to do the Instagram thing. Who was that? Um, actually, [00:34:30] you might know Kerry Sharp. Yeah. Um, so [00:34:35] she. Yeah, she was the one that said you should you should do this. The number of Instagram accounts she’s kicked off. Yeah. No, [00:34:40] she’s very good at it as well. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, [00:34:45] yeah, she, she convinced me to do that. And, um, I’ve never really looked back as soon [00:34:50] as I started advertising, putting my own stuff out there, people started coming in and asking for [00:34:55] it. So that’s really when the transition happened. So let’s, let’s, let’s get into, [00:35:00] you know, we we we do this composite course. You’re about to do a composite [00:35:05] course. We’ll talk about that in a moment. But let’s get into, you know, for, for someone. We [00:35:10] were talking about it before, I’d say in the whole country there’s maybe ten [00:35:15] maximum ten dentists doing the amount of composite bonding [00:35:20] that you’re doing. So I’m up there on volume. Yeah, it’s [00:35:25] a really unfair question, but I do want to get like a your aha [00:35:30] moment with composite. Like what can you, you know you’re about to [00:35:35] teach the stuff anyway, right. Yeah. What are the few ahas you had along the way that [00:35:40] make, you know, for instance, let me give you an example.

Speaker1: Um, I asked [00:35:45] Sam Jethwa this. He does a lot of, um, veneers, porcelain veneers, and he said with occlusion, [00:35:50] the fact that it’s outside in as well as inside out [00:35:55] for him was an aha! For the sake of the argument for [00:36:00] you with bonding question, an [00:36:05] aha moment with Bonnie. I mean it was offering I think. Well, I don’t know if it was an aha [00:36:10] moment as such, but it was offering young people on a slightly lower budget [00:36:15] the chance to get really lovely cosmetic work done in a very non-invasive way. [00:36:20] That’s, I think, what probably attracted me to it. You know, we’ve got a huge young market. The young market now [00:36:25] is massive. The middle age market is still growing slowly, but the young [00:36:30] market is the big one. I think. Um, and it was being able to to treat those people. [00:36:35] They were coming in and asking for something that I know wasn’t going to be damaging their teeth too much. Okay. [00:36:40] And I think that’s probably well, that’s certainly one of the reasons I got into it. Okay. [00:36:45] But clinically. What [00:36:50] do you mean? Well, you would look at your work, right? And it’s so beautiful. It’s beautiful [00:36:55] work. Oh, right. So clinical. You mean sort of what turns me on about my. What [00:37:00] was it? What was it that turned you from the dentist that everyone else is to this [00:37:05] this clinician? Right.

Speaker1: Sorry. It delivers this quality. Didn’t understand your question. Numbers [00:37:10] playing the numbers game practising. Yeah, totally. Um, [00:37:15] when I started off doing it five, six years ago in bigger volumes. [00:37:20] Yeah, the work wasn’t what it is now. It was. It was good. It was acceptable. It didn’t cause any [00:37:25] problems for the patients. But I look back at those photos and it it wasn’t what I’m doing now because [00:37:30] I wasn’t doing as much of it. Yeah. And through doing, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands [00:37:35] of them, God knows how many I’ve done now, but it’s got to be 10,000 plus. You just [00:37:40] get better. It’s playing a numbers game. Yeah, but what are you looking out for? Like what? You know, specifically. [00:37:45] What are you doing? Um, shapes and polish. Really. They’re the things [00:37:50] with composite bonding, getting your shapes right and getting the polish right. The [00:37:55] line angles. Yeah. If your shapes aren’t right, then nothing looks right. You can, you can, you know, [00:38:00] you can’t polish it. If the tooth shape isn’t good, you can polish the hell out of it and it’ll [00:38:05] still look shit. Yeah. You’ve got to get the line angles in. You’ve got to get the embrasures right. You’ve got to do all that. [00:38:10] So and then you can polish it and then it will look fabulous. But if you don’t get all those basic things right, then [00:38:15] no, it’s never going to look good. You look on Instagram, there’s people that put fabulous polish, but on a [00:38:20] terribly shaped tooth you can see it.

Speaker1: Yeah. You see people that, um, that shape [00:38:25] things well. But then don’t put secondary anatomy properly in. They don’t polish properly after that [00:38:30] and it doesn’t look great. You’ve got to combine all those things and get the result right at the end. And what about [00:38:35] from the patient perspective? I mean, how how much do you look into what [00:38:40] this patient is after. Because not all patients are after the same thing. I think nearly all of them are actually. [00:38:45] Oh, really? Yeah, about 95% of them, I’d say. Um, most people, if you ask [00:38:50] them, what do you want? They want they want white, they want straight. Most of them want quite [00:38:55] square, this sort of thing. I try and steer them away from the square thing. But most people want similar [00:39:00] things. They don’t want slightly darker canines. They don’t want shade progression [00:39:05] from the top of the tooth to the bottom of the tooth. They want it all one shade, this sort of thing. So I think most people do want [00:39:10] similar things. Most people don’t want too much tertiary anatomy, or in fact, most people don’t want any tertiary anatomy. Yeah, um, [00:39:15] people don’t want tints and opaques. If you ask [00:39:20] people, do you want me to put a translucent edge in your tooth, 95% of them will say no. So [00:39:25] I think most of them do want the same thing.

Speaker1: But do you not get patients who [00:39:30] want fake looking teeth? Yeah, less so now than a few years ago. But [00:39:35] yeah, we still get some coming in and say, I want it really white, really straight, really [00:39:40] square. Yeah. I mean some some people want people to know that they’ve had something done, which is going to be opposite [00:39:45] of of the way we think about it. Right, is to the best dentistry is the one you can’t tell has been [00:39:50] done. Yep, yep. I think it’s more an up north thing. It used [00:39:55] to be an up north thing, and it’s also, um, just east of London place as well. Sure. Beginning [00:40:00] with E sure. They’re still quite keen on it there, but, um, less [00:40:05] so than it used to be. But I mean, I’ll do it. If a patient wants that, then you do what the patient wants. [00:40:10] Yeah, but I just don’t put it on Instagram. Oh, I see, so you don’t want to track more of that? It’s [00:40:15] not work I particularly enjoy doing. And it’s not work I’m proud of because I don’t think it looks any good. Yeah. [00:40:20] You know. Yeah. I’ll only really put my name, put something out there with my name on it if I’m proud [00:40:25] of it myself. Yeah. And the your, your sort of split of the [00:40:30] work that you’re doing. What percentage is composite bonding? A lot 80% [00:40:35] plus I’d say. Well yeah. And the rest is Invisalign. [00:40:40]

Speaker1: Invisalign bleaching a little bit of general and a few implants still here and there. Are [00:40:45] you still doing back teeth or not at all? Yeah, yeah, but not normally as a lead [00:40:50] up to doing all the other stuff. So I’ll put fillings in back teeth if, if I have to do them. Um, pre [00:40:55] Invisalign or pre whitening or something like that. Yeah. Um, but I, you know, I prefer [00:41:00] not to be doing general dentistry now, but I still do a little bit as a, as part of the whole, the whole case. [00:41:05] And then do the patients tell each other and find you online. [00:41:10] And is that just the profile of the patient that you’ve got that’s going to it. Always [00:41:15] want to go down that road? I’d like to think because of your kind of reputation, I’d like to think there’s a lot of word of [00:41:20] mouth referral. Yeah. Yeah. But you know The Hindu. Right. [00:41:25] I do endo as well, you know, to do everything. I still [00:41:30] do everything. Okay. But, um, I do less of it than I used to, but I’ll still still do everything. I mean, [00:41:35] the only thing I don’t do anymore is dentures. Mhm. Unless it’s part of an implant treatment, of course. But, um. Yeah. [00:41:40] Very rarely. But I still do everything. I mean, I like doing everything. I like dentistry. Yeah. [00:41:45] Any tactics around how to get patients to post, [00:41:50] for instance, post and tag me and.

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:55] It’s tricky. Do you not bother with that? Very rarely. I found that most of the time they’ll say no. [00:42:00] Even the ones that they, they, uh, have collaborations with at work at Ru, [00:42:05] they’ll quite often renege on what they, what they’re supposed to do as well. So I prefer the influencers. [00:42:10] Yeah. Yeah. So I prefer to keep it. I don’t ever post a face. Yeah. Because [00:42:15] I think if you post faces you’re going to open up the door for, you know, complaints [00:42:20] and identifying patients and so on. So I only post teeth and non-identifiable photos. [00:42:25] Um, and I don’t really tag people and I don’t ask them to [00:42:30] tag me. One of the guys that I work with got in trouble for tagging a patient without asking. [00:42:35] Just a tag, nothing more. But you know, so I prefer just to keep it as [00:42:40] I’ve got it. There are tactics though. There are? Yeah. Go [00:42:45] on then. So. So I come across some dentists who they [00:42:50] set it up so that patients want to be tagged. Go [00:42:55] on. I’m intrigued. Yeah, well it might be in smaller communities [00:43:00] than central London, right? Yeah. Where, you know, people know each other more. I mean, I studied [00:43:05] in Cardiff, so I understand that feeling like in a town like Cardiff, however many population [00:43:10] it’s got, if you bump into someone one day at the bank, you [00:43:15] know you’re going to bump into them at some point soon, right? You know, even though it’s a city, [00:43:20] it’s not it’s not the Gold Coast.

Speaker1: It’s a city you’re going to bump into. And so the movers and shakers, [00:43:25] whether let’s call it the medical community, the dental community, the, the, the pretty [00:43:30] girl community, kind of know each other. Yeah. And so what [00:43:35] these practices do is they make it a thing to, to, to, you know, it’s almost like if [00:43:40] why didn’t you tag me, right. Yeah. Was it, was it, was it that you weren’t happy with the work. [00:43:45] You know, it’s one of those. Got it. Um, and then. Yeah, there’s other subtleties [00:43:50] right around language. Um, for instance, what do you say to [00:43:55] patients about how long it’s going to last? Bonding 5 to 7 years. [00:44:00] Normally. Yeah. Come back for a polish once a year. Oh really? Do [00:44:05] you do it yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that’s that’s [00:44:10] what I tell them. As long as you don’t do anything silly with them, you know, bite your nails, [00:44:15] chew pens, open crisp packets or tear sellotape, that sort of thing. Um, 5 to [00:44:20] 7 years. You should get of them. Looking good. Doesn’t mean they’ll fall off the next day or anything like [00:44:25] that, but they should look good as long as you repolish them every now and then, refine the margins, that sort of thing should [00:44:30] be fine. So talking to Matty Parsons about this. Yeah. Who does as many as you do I guess [00:44:35] he says the subtleties of he says to the patient, if you [00:44:40] go ahead and break one of them rather than if one of them breaks.

Speaker1: Right. Yeah. And he says [00:44:45] that little subtlety means that patients come in with a broken, you know, chipped [00:44:50] restoration. Apologising. Yeah. Nice. [00:44:55] Yeah. It’s a subtlety right. Yeah. And he’s like, look, [00:45:00] I’m absolutely fine. I’ll fix it for you if you go ahead and, you know, if you, if you do go [00:45:05] and bite on the wrong thing or. Yeah, you know. Well okay. So the subtleties of [00:45:10] it, I have to try that one. And because, you know, we’re as a profession, we’re guilty of owning the restoration [00:45:15] for the rest of that patient’s life. Right? I mean, why should it be that way if the guy’s only paid you three grand for something? [00:45:20] Yeah. Um, so let’s talk about [00:45:25] darker days. My favourite part of the pod. [00:45:30] Go on. On this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Sort [00:45:35] of from the black box thinking idea of. It’s better for all of us [00:45:40] to learn from each other’s mistakes and in in medical and dental. Often we hide [00:45:45] our mistakes or don’t own up to them or because there’s a massive blame [00:45:50] culture, whereas other if you’ve read black boxing, it’s about it’s about plane [00:45:55] crashes, okay? And you know, when a plane crashes, um, the first [00:46:00] thing they do is to find out what went wrong and immediately tell the whole community, [00:46:05] yeah, what went wrong so that everyone else learns, okay? [00:46:10] And there’s no issue of blame.

Speaker1: They’re just saying, you know, this is what happened. Even [00:46:15] if someone did the wrong thing, they blame the system, um, for [00:46:20] it. Because, you know, bad systems cause errors. But [00:46:25] in medical it’s quite the opposite. And so we never end up learning. So [00:46:30] what comes to mind if I talk about ask you, you know, clinical errors most difficult [00:46:35] patients. What comes to mind. Well one I’ve just hopefully [00:46:40] finished off with recently. Okay. Yeah. Um, came to see me [00:46:45] probably summer last year. Um, had some bonding [00:46:50] done about a year or so before that, which she wasn’t very happy with. And [00:46:55] so she said, I want, I want to take it off and redo it. It’s only on four teeth. So [00:47:00] that’s what we did. I said, right, here’s the treatment plan. [00:47:05] We’ll make one appointment. She had slightly overhanging margins on the composite. So I said, what we’ll do. We’ll take off the [00:47:10] composite on visit number one. Let your soft tissues recover for a week or so and then get you back in on [00:47:15] visit number two to redo the bonding. Had you done the original? No, no. [00:47:20] Not sure who did it, but it was, you know, it was starting to fail. She said it was only a year [00:47:25] old, which I suspect maybe was not true. It looked a bit older than that, but it could have been done badly. [00:47:30]

Speaker1: So it started to fail. Um, she came in. I took the composite off [00:47:35] with, um, soft discs. And found that she had [00:47:40] pig teeth underneath the pig pig lateral, and quite a slim canine as well. And [00:47:45] I said to her, oh, you’ve got quite small teeth under there. And she. That’s [00:47:50] fine. No problem at all. She didn’t react to it too much. She came back, um, the following week for the new [00:47:55] bonding which we put on. She came back two weeks later [00:48:00] for a small adjustment. Um, and she said her teeth had moved. [00:48:05] And I said, have you been wearing your retainer? And she said, yes, I have. This is where I made the mistake. [00:48:10] I should have said to her, can you bring your retainer in and let me try it in? [00:48:15] Because her teeth had moved, there was visible gaps between them. And I said, look, I’ll close them up for you. [00:48:20] But when you get home, put your retainer in. If it feels too tight, let me know. Come back in. [00:48:25] We’ll make an adjustment. I shouldn’t have done the composite in the first place. This is. This is where I’ve learned a big lesson. I [00:48:30] should have said, bring the retainer in. Then we’ll have a look. Then I’ll redo the composite if necessary. So [00:48:35] she went home, called up, um, a few days later, saying her composites broken again because [00:48:40] she’s put the retainer in.

Speaker1: Clearly the teeth have moved and the retainer is not fitting. [00:48:45] And at that point, she launches the worst complaint I’ve had in years, [00:48:50] basically threatening straight away. I’m going to sue you. You’ve ruined [00:48:55] my teeth and you destroyed the teeth underneath. When you took the old composite off, I [00:49:00] said, well, no, I didn’t. That’s the shape of your teeth. And there was [00:49:05] a lot of backwards and forwards, a lot of a lot of arguing, a lot, a lot of threats on her part. Written [00:49:10] right, written straight away. Um, there was then suddenly, after about the third [00:49:15] email, I started thinking, actually, no, she’s she’s, um. I [00:49:20] don’t think she’s serious. I think she’s she just wants money. I don’t think she wants anything else. She’s [00:49:25] not going to go down the GDC road. She’s not going to go down any other. She’s having a go. She’s having a go. [00:49:30] Because every letter she wrote, if I don’t get compensation by the this date, [00:49:35] I’m going to sue you. Second letter. My brother’s a lawyer and so is [00:49:40] my dad. And if I don’t get compensation, they’re going to sue you. Third [00:49:45] letter. If I don’t get compensation by this date, I’m going to sue you. And I thought she’s not going to sue because she [00:49:50] would have done it because we were delaying things. We were trying to get the records organised. And she keeps threatening. [00:49:55] Every week a letter comes through saying if she doesn’t have financial compensation, she’s going to sue. [00:50:00]

Speaker1: So it ended well. I hope it’s ended recently when I wrote [00:50:05] to her and I basically called her bluff on a lot of things, I said, look, if [00:50:10] I destroyed your teeth as much as you think I destroyed them, how was I able [00:50:15] to do it without anaesthetic? Right? How come my photos show enamel all the way round your [00:50:20] teeth? But what you’re saying is that the teeth are painful because they’ve been prepped and prepped. [00:50:25] Um. I said, why didn’t you raise the alarm when I first took the composite off? [00:50:30] Why didn’t you raise the alarm when you came back to put new composite on? Why didn’t you raise the alarm when [00:50:35] you came for the adjustment? At no point have you ever mentioned that your teeth have been damaged. [00:50:40] Apart from now, when you’ve raised this complaint. And I think it sort of scared her off, that she’s realised [00:50:45] that she’s just, you know, I’m on to her and she’s now seems to have backed down. But from what [00:50:50] we’ve gathered, she’s gone somewhere else and tried the same thing with another practice. Oh yeah. So [00:50:55] she’s she’s a serial complainer kind of woman that goes to a restaurant, eats three quarters of [00:51:00] a meal, pulls out a little piece of glass from her handbag and says, I’m not, you know, I’m not. It should be one of those. [00:51:05] But yeah, I mean, there’s there’s a few of them out there at the moment, but she’s the one that springs to mind most recently. [00:51:10]

Speaker1: How long was it beginning to end? Like how four months. Painful. [00:51:15] Four painful. Four months. There’s another one that we’ve got going at the moment. Who? Um, [00:51:20] actually, the it started here, um, because you made me a bleach tray, [00:51:25] which didn’t include her wisdom teeth. So she had about a 5 [00:51:30] to 5, then a two tooth gap and then wisdom teeth. And the bleach tray only was [00:51:35] made for 5 to 5. Yeah. And she came in and said the bleach tray doesn’t include my wisdom [00:51:40] teeth. And I was like, well, you know, nobody is ever going to see your wisdom teeth. And she said, well, I see my wisdom [00:51:45] teeth. And I said, fine, we’ll make you a new bleach tray. So I took a new impression. New bleach trays made, [00:51:50] including the eights. She went off happy. Um, [00:51:55] we did some other work on her, some fillings, etc. one of them ended up being sensitive. [00:52:00] She then launched a massive complaint, saying everything I’d done in the three years [00:52:05] leading up to that point was negligent. Done without consent, including implants, bridges, everything. [00:52:10] So she’s now trying to get compensation for everything I’ve ever done because the tooth was slightly [00:52:15] sensitive and her bleach tray didn’t quite fit. And she got a lawyer. No, [00:52:20] she’s again another someone trying their luck, hoping that dental protection will simply [00:52:25] just write.

Speaker1: Write the check, I wonder, I wonder if in the this [00:52:30] sort of current economic climate, we’re going to get more of this stuff just from desperate people, right? I fear [00:52:35] that may be the case. You never know who’s going to walk. So I guess it definitely increasing recently. [00:52:40] Yeah. And all the guys I work with have said the same thing. Everyone’s got things going through Dental protection [00:52:45] at the moment and massive complaints just going through, you know, local through through work, through [00:52:50] the actual we’ve got lawyers at work as well that are dealing with things for us. There’s so much of it at the moment, so much [00:52:55] and most of it, I have to say, completely unjustified, completely unjustified. You [00:53:00] know, if we’re all screwing up, fine. But we’re not. Yeah. Nothing’s changed that massively in [00:53:05] your treatment, right? No, no obviously not. I mean, I’ve said this a few times to people, my work [00:53:10] now is better than it’s ever been, but I’m getting more complaints than I’ve ever had. Yeah, [00:53:15] that doesn’t make sense. Does it make you more defensive? Yeah, [00:53:20] completely. So what, you’re writing longer essays for consent and all that? Yeah, [00:53:25] yeah. Have you had the situation? This this must have happened to you where you [00:53:30] finished the work? Patient says they’re happy. They go home and then someone says [00:53:35] something, whatever. And then. Yeah, I mean, in all of cosmetics, the one when a patient says [00:53:40] I don’t like them.

Speaker1: Mm. Okay. If you can shorten them or remove the [00:53:45] fine. Of course composites a bit different, you can change it repair. But [00:53:50] that situation, do you prepare the patient sort of say something to them to. [00:53:55] Because I used to do that when I was a dentist, I used to say, um, you’re going to go home and someone, [00:54:00] somewhere is not going to like them. I have a spiel that I say at the end of [00:54:05] every appointment setting, setting them up for the fact that they may not like something [00:54:10] hit us with it. It’s basically like, look, they’re new. New doesn’t always feel right. [00:54:15] However, after a few days it probably will. If it doesn’t, if there’s some aspect [00:54:20] you’re not getting on with after a few days, let me know. We can adjust it. And I sort of go think about a new pair [00:54:25] of shoes. Shoes don’t always feel great when you first put them on, but after you’ve broken them in, they feel fine. [00:54:30] I said, look, a millimetre of tooth is nothing but a sorry, a mil [00:54:35] a millimetre is nothing, but a millimetre of tooth is massive. You know, it’s 10% of a tooth. [00:54:40] So I said, even though we’ve added a tiny bit, for instance, that’s going to feel big to you. Don’t [00:54:45] panic though, I sort of I manage them into this kind of feeling that it’s okay if there’s something you’re not quite comfortable with [00:54:50] right now, you know, gaps.

Speaker1: For instance, if you close a gap, that’s the number one. [00:54:55] Yeah. You know, especially in midline, if it’s a big midline, people don’t like it necessarily straight away. [00:55:00] The first thing they do is they hold the mirror up and they know, oh I’m not sure I’m not sure. And you [00:55:05] can see them also. Don’t let them go to the loo halfway through an appointment if you can. So they can’t see. [00:55:10] Yeah. Because they always check. Yeah, yeah. And quite often they’ll come back in. They’ll say is that meant to be like [00:55:15] that. Is that going to stay that way? And you’re like, no, I’ve only done three out of the eight teeth, you know, calm, calm down. But [00:55:20] so you’ve got you do have to manage expectations. Tell me, tell me about the [00:55:25] actual treatment process itself. How long do you take on a sort of 3 to [00:55:30] 3? Um, three. Between 3 and 4 hours, or maybe about 3.5 [00:55:35] hour mark. And you go completely free hand, or do you use a stent or always freehand? Yeah, [00:55:40] I’ve tried it with stents and there is a place in the market for stents, [00:55:45] um, for where cases, that sort of thing. But most of the time I can do it freehand [00:55:50] unless it’s a real bad, you know, bruxing case or something like that, that I will use a stent, but [00:55:55] 99 times out of 100 it will be freehand. And how [00:56:00] confident are you regarding the occlusion and the occlusion sort of analysis of [00:56:05] what’s going to work and what isn’t? Is it is it is it any more complicated than getting them to [00:56:10] move their teeth around and seeing what’s hitting what? Not really.

Speaker1: Really. Yeah. If you if you look [00:56:15] at them at the consultation visit. Yeah. Then, um, you should be able to work [00:56:20] out what’s going on. You know, if you see flat canines, you know, what you’re up against, um, [00:56:25] still gets, you know, a few surprises every now and then, but most of the time you can work [00:56:30] out what’s going on. If there’s edge to edge bites, cross bites, this sort of thing, then, you know, Invisalign [00:56:35] first. Yeah. But yeah, if there’s if there’s enough space and there’s no signs of wear, [00:56:40] then more often than not you’re okay. You’re good to go. And do you get them all to wear a [00:56:45] thing a white razor. I know some people that do a [00:56:50] bite razor. Well, not a retainer tray. Um, a lot of [00:56:55] people will put that into into every plan. Yeah, I don’t necessarily put it in every plan, you know. No. [00:57:00] If I mean, there’s some that, you know aren’t going to chip if there’s, you know, huge [00:57:05] overjet this sort of thing, you know, they’re never going to be able to put their front teeth together properly. So I [00:57:10] don’t do it for everyone, but I do it a lot. Do it a lot. I feel like it’s a defensive move too though. Yeah, [00:57:15] of course it is.

Speaker3: You know, you can kind of blame that. Yeah.

Speaker1: You haven’t been wearing it. Yeah. [00:57:20] Yeah yeah of course.

Speaker3: Do you get them to bleach their composites.

Speaker1: Um, increasingly [00:57:25] I do advise that. Yeah, it’s a good idea. Yeah. Um, because they, you know, they’re going [00:57:30] to get staining, particularly around the margins, particularly in between where you haven’t quite got the polish right, this sort of thing. Um, [00:57:35] so yeah, I say get a bleach tray. Pop your gel into it and then do [00:57:40] a bit of whitening once every few months, and that should lift the stain off. So I do, I do or.

Speaker3: Prevent the stain from ever [00:57:45] coming on right in the first place. Yeah, yeah. So I [00:57:50] kind of want to hear another difficult story.

Speaker1: Oh. [00:57:55] Let’s say. I mean, [00:58:00] there was I’ve had people threaten to beat the shit out of me once when [00:58:05] I was in Australia. Well, tell me what that was. Um, [00:58:10] a surgical extraction that went wrong. Okay. And the tooth [00:58:15] kept breaking and breaking and breaking. And I’m removing more and more of the bone around the tooth. And there’s PTSD right now. Yeah. [00:58:20] Um, and at the end, I mean, we didn’t actually get the tooth out. We ended [00:58:25] up with a little bit of root left in. He jumped out of the chair and he said, look, I’ve been here for two fucking hours. And he just fronted [00:58:30] up to me this ready? Wow. And that, you know, that’s not great. [00:58:35]

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker1: Um, that happened that actually happened twice when I was in Australia. [00:58:40] There was there was another guy who said, I get the injection I gave was far too painful. Would I like to step [00:58:45] into the car park? Well, sort it out. I said no. Yeah. [00:58:50] So that that’s, uh, that [00:58:55] happened. Had had had, uh, what else happened in [00:59:00] Hackney? I had a woman that’s, um, thinks or thought rather that, um, the [00:59:05] crown I was putting in had some kind of GPS tracker in it. Before [00:59:10] before GPS had been invented, I think because that was in the late 90s. [00:59:15] There was another one that said that, um, spiders had come out from under one of her bridges [00:59:20] or something like that, something odd like that. But Hackney, that’s what Hackney used to be like. It was not [00:59:25] mental health, not a central. Well, we had the Homerton, the um, hospital. Yeah. There was [00:59:30] a lot of them there. And so we used to see a lot of patients like that. Yeah, just strange ones. I had a [00:59:35] patient propose to me once.

Speaker3: Didn’t that happen all the time?

Speaker1: No, no, again, [00:59:40] that was in Hackney. Um, yeah. So I’ve, I’ve had a few. [00:59:45]

Speaker3: Tell me this. Did you kind of. To me, I feel like you’re the you’re the kind [00:59:50] of person who doesn’t mind jumping in and trying things. No. Whether we’re [00:59:55] talking composite bonding 20 years ago when no one was doing it, whether we’re talking about you were quite, [01:00:00] you know, Instagram just, just just doing an Instagram page in itself. Um, [01:00:05] what is it? What is it about you? I mean, is that is that would you would you characterise [01:00:10] yourself like that as someone who just jump in and have a go at stuff, certain things.

Speaker1: I mean, with, with dentistry? [01:00:15] Yeah, I’m happy to have a go as long as I’m comfortable doing it I think. Yeah. Give it a try again. [01:00:20]

Speaker3: We talk about the younger generation, the very, very scared of doing anything that’s not, um, you [01:00:25] know, fully taught and researched and and so forth. And I feel like, yeah, [01:00:30] of course, that’s the total risk free way of going. Yeah. But also it stifles [01:00:35] innovation. Like you’ve got this course, which we’ll come on to now. But in [01:00:40] this course you’re going to teach certain sort of tricks and tips. Yeah. [01:00:45] And you wouldn’t have learned those tips and tricks without trying them yourself. Right. True. [01:00:50]

Speaker1: Absolutely. Right. Yeah. So yeah I do I again [01:00:55] I’ve made mistakes with composite. It wasn’t as good as it used to be. It used to be worse than it is [01:01:00] now. Yeah. And that’s trial and error. Yeah. Found out what works. Found out what doesn’t work. [01:01:05] Do more of what works. Do less of what doesn’t work. I’ve tried virtually every [01:01:10] polishing system on the market. Found out which one works for me. So I’ve done all that. Yeah, [01:01:15] but I had to. I had to try it first, though.

Speaker3: Let’s talk about the course that you’re about to start. [01:01:20] Why now?

Speaker1: I’ve been thinking about it for about two and a half years, actually. [01:01:25] Um. I’ve always wanted to do it. Um. [01:01:30] My body isn’t what it used to be. Not [01:01:35] what? What you think? Um. You know, I [01:01:40] spend eight hours a day with my neck at 45 degrees like that. Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s hurting. [01:01:45] I haven’t had a day without neck pain for probably 15 years. I know I’m not going to be able to do it [01:01:50] forever. The course allows me to do what I love. Still, [01:01:55] um, indulge my passion for composites, but without the physical strain on the body. [01:02:00] You know, every day I wake up with stiff hands, I work out with stiff elbows. It’s all Dental [01:02:05] related.

Speaker3: How many days a week do you work?

Speaker1: Five. Occasionally six. That’s your [01:02:10] era? Probably. Honestly? Yeah.

Speaker3: Honestly. Uh, you know, [01:02:15] I’m a massive advocate of four days. Or three days.

Speaker1: Yeah, well, I’d like to be able to do that [01:02:20] because it’s a hard.

Speaker3: Job, I don’t think. I don’t think your earnings will suffer as much as you think. Yeah. Um, [01:02:25] because, you know, you’ve heard this story before, right? You’re fresher. Yeah. [01:02:30] Number one. So you end up talking and you sell more, for [01:02:35] want of a better word, you end up finishing things off that sometimes you temporise or [01:02:40] because. Because you’re fresher. But really, for me, the main thing is that [01:02:45] extra day dentistry is such a hard job that without it, you’re so burnt [01:02:50] out that you don’t end up doing other things like teaching or whatever [01:02:55] it is. Like I can 100% tell you there would be no enlighten if I was a five [01:03:00] day a week guy. Yeah, it’s because I was a four day a week guy. Then on that fifth day, I had time [01:03:05] to even think, oh, let’s do a teeth whitening company, you know, because, [01:03:10] you know, she’s hard, then she’s hard.

Speaker1: It is hard. Yeah.

Speaker3: So that that’s something you should think [01:03:15] about, right? I really would.

Speaker1: If the course takes off, that’s probably where I’ll be ending. [01:03:20] You know, I’d say take a day off immediately. Do it straight away.

Speaker3: I can see zebras out spitting [01:03:25] in her coffee. I’ll text them.

Speaker1: I’ll text her now. Payment always take a day [01:03:30] off.

Speaker3: Honestly though, you will find your earnings. It will not go down by one [01:03:35] fifth. No way. Yeah, yeah. Um, some people even earn more, right? [01:03:40] In four days. Um, but the teaching thing. Have you ever taught it before?

Speaker1: No, [01:03:45] I’ve supervised on other courses. Oh, yeah. Um, but I’ve never actually taught solo. No, [01:03:50] I mean, I’ve taught some of the guys at work. Yeah. Hints and tips. You know, occasionally one of the younger guys will come in and [01:03:55] and sit with me through a case or this sort of thing. But I’ve never done group teaching. Just just one [01:04:00] on one, really.

Speaker3: And have you got the content already or are you working on it still?

Speaker1: Yeah, most of it’s done. [01:04:05] I’ve got to do a few bits of video, which I’m going to hopefully do in the next few weeks, [01:04:10] but most of the contents there. Yeah.

Speaker3: And the sort of the back end, the [01:04:15] how are you going to get people to come onto the course.

Speaker1: And at [01:04:20] the moment it’s Instagram advertising, um, which is going all right, but [01:04:25] have you.

Speaker3: Got a, I don’t know, a landing page or.

Speaker1: Yeah, can.

Speaker3: You buy tickets online, that sort of.

Speaker1: Thing. [01:04:30] I haven’t done all that yet. Yeah. I send out a brochure with bank details on if they’re interested. [01:04:35] They’ll transfer some money.

Speaker3: And what is it, a two day course.

Speaker1: Two days. Um, if it goes well, I’m [01:04:40] thinking maybe of doing a third day in the future if I, if I, if it goes if it goes. Well, [01:04:45] because the first two days are going to be very much a sort of foundation. And on the third day, if I decide [01:04:50] to do that, it’ll be more, slightly more complicated stuff.

Speaker3: Yeah. And what would [01:04:55] you say is the USP of your composite course?

Speaker1: Um, I’m [01:05:00] going to say simplicity. I know a lot of people say simplicity is going to be their thing, but [01:05:05] I reckon it’s doing great work with fewer shades of composite and [01:05:10] with fewer materials in a really reproducible way. That’s one of the things. The other [01:05:15] one is really gearing it towards what patients want. So not doing we’re [01:05:20] not in the first course. We’re not worrying about translucency. We’re not worrying about Incisal Edge. [01:05:25] Um, not yeah. We’re not watching. You know, patients don’t want that. [01:05:30] Yeah. We’re not we’re not going to be doing tints opaque as translucency, notching anything like that. Very [01:05:35] little tertiary anatomy. Just doing really, really solid. Um, 3 to [01:05:40] 3. Primary anatomy, secondary anatomy, good polish, that sort of thing. Also, [01:05:45] I think I think I’m right when I say I’m going to be the only guys doing a full [01:05:50] 3 to 3. So we’re going to do um, because most, most courses I’ve been [01:05:55] on will focus on a single tooth, and then they’ll do another single tooth and another single tooth. I’m going to focus on doing things in [01:06:00] pairs and doing so. Hopefully they end up leaving having done a full 3 to 3, [01:06:05] which, uh.

Speaker3: When you’re treating a patient, is that how you do it? You start with the two centrals, [01:06:10] right?

Speaker1: Yeah. Upper right, one upper left, one upper right, two upper left, two upper right three upper left three. Like [01:06:15] that. Then I’ll normally if I’m doing premolars I’ll do the right side first both of them and then the left side. [01:06:20] But I’ve got, I’ve got that system. That’s how I do it.

Speaker3: But do you find it’s that it [01:06:25] is the centre line and those mesial line angles on the centrals. [01:06:30] Yeah. That set off the whole thing. Yep.

Speaker1: Totally.

Speaker3: And the symmetry between them. [01:06:35] Right. Yeah.

Speaker1: If the midline is not there you’re fucked straight away. I mean it’s [01:06:40] so hard to go back and correct a midline. So you’ve got to make sure that’s right. Mesial line angles much more important [01:06:45] than distal line angles. Yeah. You know and then you’ve got to get the the symmetry between the centrals [01:06:50] straight away. Mirror image of each other. With the laterals you’ve got a bit of play. [01:06:55] You can make your lateral you know, it.

Speaker3: Adds character if it’s out away from the centre line. Exactly. [01:07:00]

Speaker1: The midline laterals are where the smile gets character. So you can play with the shapes a little bit there. [01:07:05] You can create a little bit of asymmetry if you want. But again patients don’t want asymmetry. They want symmetry. [01:07:10] Um, but it’s um yeah. So that laterals you’ve got a little bit more room and canines [01:07:15] again canines are quite important. You’ve got to understand how the canine works in the smile. [01:07:20] So shaping the canines properly is a really good thing as well for for getting a good overall result. [01:07:25] And the key.

Speaker3: To that the fact that it’s not one surface, it’s two.

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean a canine [01:07:30] is that when you look at it from above, it’s got a ridge in the middle. And I like to just scallop slightly [01:07:35] as well. So you create just when you, when you take a picture, it just you get [01:07:40] a little bit of reflection, a little bit of a scoop in the distal part of the canine. It looks more [01:07:45] organic. Yeah. Little things like that. These are things I’m going to be teaching.

Speaker3: And [01:07:50] photography tips.

Speaker1: There will be some. And again, I’m not a photographer. Um, [01:07:55] you’re pretty good though. It’s again, I set my camera. Yeah. And I take a picture exactly the same [01:08:00] way every time. I don’t tinker with the settings. That’s all it’s about for me.

Speaker3: But [01:08:05] I don’t know. I mean, the befores and afters are very, very like well positioned. [01:08:10] Yeah.

Speaker1: I mean, you can edit that later, can’t you? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, for me, I [01:08:15] haven’t changed the settings on my camera now for years. The only time I change settings is if I get a new camera. [01:08:20]

Speaker3: Who taught you photography?

Speaker1: No one. No one? No.

Speaker3: Putting a [01:08:25] theme here? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: Um. No one. Again, I made mistakes with camera [01:08:30] settings. You just Google Dental settings for canon cameras. They’re there. [01:08:35] They’re all there. Just do that and, um, get a good flash. Get some. I’ve tried different diffusers, [01:08:40] and now I’ve settled on some, um. What are they called? I’ve forgotten [01:08:45] the name, but they’re very nice. Um, they give a lovely sort of softness. Once you’ve got the kit that [01:08:50] you get on with, just stick with it and always try and take the pictures from the same angle, same distance, [01:08:55] that sort of thing, so that everything is consistent. That’s what it’s all about.

Speaker3: You’re going to be teaching [01:09:00] that to photography. There’ll be a.

Speaker1: Half hour slot in there about that.

Speaker3: And you’re doing it at Lon DEG. [01:09:05]

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. First of all.

Speaker3: Phantom heads.

Speaker1: Phantom heads. Um, [01:09:10] I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been there a few times to London and I think it’s a good setup. Yeah, definitely. [01:09:15] And they’ve got great backup and support and all this sort of thing. So I thought for my first course that would be a great [01:09:20] place to do it. They can take 32 people. I’m not going to be teaching 32 people. I want [01:09:25] to try and cap it at somewhere between 16 and 18 because I want to keep it quite small, quite intimate, [01:09:30] because one of the things I’ve noticed on a lot, of course, I’ve been on, is too many people. You don’t get [01:09:35] to go round everyone, give everyone a fair share of time. Yeah. You [01:09:40] know, some of the courses I’ve been on, they don’t finish the the itinerary they set for the course because there’s too many people and there’s [01:09:45] always one that’s going to ask the questions and hog your time. Yeah. So I’m going to try and keep it as a small [01:09:50] group, keep it more intimate.

Speaker3: So what do you think the future holds.

Speaker1: For [01:09:55] for you? I’m hoping at one point in the future [01:10:00] it holds a villa in Spain somewhere. That’s what I’d love. Yeah. [01:10:05] I mean somewhere like Mallorca or something like that. I can see myself there in my 60s, [01:10:10] maybe earlier, but definitely in my 60s. A bit of sunshine.

Speaker3: I’ve [01:10:15] always thought, I’ve always thought, I mean, who knows if this will ever happen to me, right? But the notion [01:10:20] of going from summer to summer to summer to summer, the.

Speaker1: End of summer like a surfer.

Speaker3: Yeah, just. Just [01:10:25] amazing. Just go. Northern hemisphere, southern hemisphere, northern hemisphere. And then at one point, you’ll want something. So go [01:10:30] skiing quickly. Yeah. And then some of that would be the amazing thing. That would be [01:10:35] lovely. But the my parents have a villa in Spain and in, um, [01:10:40] uh, you know, Portofino around there.

Speaker1: My parents used to have a place near there as well. Yeah. Near Estepona. [01:10:45]

Speaker3: Yeah. Yeah. Nearby. Yeah. I’m not sure I’d recommend it to anyone. Um, [01:10:50] ownership, of course. Of course. If you’re going to live there, it doesn’t make sense not [01:10:55] to own it because it’s expensive. Right? But ownership of a holiday home, I don’t I [01:11:00] don’t think I’d do it because it.

Speaker1: Limits you going to the same place.

Speaker3: Limits you. But also also it’s, you [01:11:05] know, every year my parents were spending five, six grand on something. [01:11:10] Something was going wrong. You know, the swimming pool cracked. Yeah. So and so, you know, the gardener, [01:11:15] whatever. It wasn’t like it was hands free at all. It was. It was. I mean, there is a notion that you [01:11:20] don’t have to sort of take clothes anymore because they have clothes there and they have clothes. They don’t have to carry [01:11:25] loads of suitcases. Um, but I don’t know, man. I’d do it a different way. I’d go to, you [01:11:30] know, maybe the same. I found one villa in Thailand I love, and we went back there twice. [01:11:35] Um, but I’m not.

Speaker1: Thinking of it as a holiday home. I’m thinking more of a permanent move.

Speaker3: Life. [01:11:40]

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. Giving up? Retire. Retirement. Yeah. Giving up London. Um, say [01:11:45] ten, 15 years, whatever it ends up being. And then just living over there, just having a nice, [01:11:50] relaxing time. I like.

Speaker3: Spain, um.

Speaker1: I love Spain. Yeah. Where? [01:11:55]

Speaker3: I mean, you know, you said you didn’t particularly dig Australia. Where else have [01:12:00] you been that you really love?

Speaker1: My, um. Well, Spain is my favourite country to travel [01:12:05] around. Yeah, absolutely. Love it. Um, France is very enjoyable. Italy, I mean, most most of the Mediterranean [01:12:10] is a great place. I’ve been to. I’ve been. Yeah, I’ve been to America. I’ve been to the Caribbean. I’ve been to Asia. I’ve been [01:12:15] all over the place. But of the places I could live. Um, not that many. I mean, there’s, [01:12:20] like I say, Spain. I could live probably southern France, I could, I could hack, but, um, not many [01:12:25] other places.

Speaker3: I’ve always thought Canada never been.

Speaker1: You know, [01:12:30] I’ve been to the airport in Canada, changing planes, but that’s it. Gander, Newfoundland. [01:12:35] Change planes there once. But I’ve never, never been to Canada. Yeah, no.

Speaker3: I like it. [01:12:40] Reminds me of America without the Americans somehow.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: But it’s not about the crime. [01:12:45] It’s when I say aggressive. I don’t mean physically aggressive. I mean mentally Americans are quite [01:12:50] aggressive. Yeah, yeah, they want to know how much money you make. What’s going on? The Canadians [01:12:55] are much more chilled. Yeah. Um, and yet I haven’t been to Australia to know whether [01:13:00] what that what that’s like. But they’re much more chill. And yet you get everything you get in America. You [01:13:05] know, the service and the whatever, whatever you were after, like the burgers or, you know, these days we [01:13:10] have burgers here. We don’t have to worry about that.

Speaker1: Yep. We’re moving on. Get [01:13:15] moving with the times here.

Speaker3: Let’s let’s get on to the final [01:13:20] questions. Okay. Um, it’s starts off with a fantasy [01:13:25] dinner party.

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker3: Three guests.

Speaker1: Yeah. I thought I’ve thought long and [01:13:30] hard about this. Dead or alive. And I could go with, you know, the usual, [01:13:35] like.

Speaker3: The Elon Musk.

Speaker1: And Dalai Lama. And. But that would be boring. [01:13:40]

Speaker3: Elon Musk, Einstein and Nelson Mandela making a lot of appearances on this list.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:13:45] I mean, and then I thought, um, about people like, sort of Freddie [01:13:50] Mercury and Michael Schumacher, people that I’ve admired in my, you know, in my youth. [01:13:55] David Attenborough was one that I thought of as well. I think he’d be a very interesting [01:14:00] guy. But then I’ve also thought a lot of people say, if you meet your idols, you’re very disappointed by them.

Speaker3: Have [01:14:05] you met any of your idols? No, I’ve met 1 or 2 here, for instance. And [01:14:10] not always disappointed, man. Not always. Sometimes. Sometimes it’s great. [01:14:15] Yeah, but I hear what you say.

Speaker1: You know what I mean? I yeah, I’ve, like, I always thought, you [01:14:20] know, until Michael Schumacher had his terrible accident. I always thought he’s a guy I’d really like to meet because [01:14:25] I thought he’s brilliant at what he did. And he’s always come across to me as a very nice man. I thought he’s [01:14:30] someone I’d love to have a beer with in the future. Um, but then people said, oh no, no, [01:14:35] some people, when you meet like Michael, he’s very, very aloof. He’s very quiet. This sort of thing. He’s [01:14:40] not. He’s not who you think he’s going to be. And therefore, do you want to meet someone like that and be disappointed [01:14:45] by them because you’ve put them up here, you hold them, you put them on a pedestal, you hold them high in your esteem. Yeah. [01:14:50] When you meet someone and they disappoint you, you go, oh, yeah. So [01:14:55] again, like Freddy, I’d love to have met Freddy back in the day. I think he would have been a legend. Yeah, but, [01:15:00] you know, you read some stories about Freddy. Apparently a bit of an arsehole sometimes as well, you know? So [01:15:05] do I want to have a dinner party with people that might disappoint me, so I’d probably pick.

Speaker3: What have you come up with? [01:15:10]

Speaker1: Best mates and my wife. That’s it. No, no, of course [01:15:15] no, I would say, do you know what I mean? I don’t know if this is corny, but one of my [01:15:20] grandparents, who I never asked enough questions of when I was able to [01:15:25] because I was too busy wanting to go out with my friends and get pissed. Yeah. And I had [01:15:30] my grandparents. I had my grandmother around till I was in my mid-twenties, which is, you know, quite unusual. And [01:15:35] I never sat her down and asked her all the fabulous stories about the war. You know, she [01:15:40] was in concentration camps in Siberia and this sort of thing. And I never listened to her. She always wanted to talk to me. I [01:15:45] never listened. So she’s she’s someone I’d invite back, you know, if I could. Yeah.

Speaker3: That’s [01:15:50] two.

Speaker1: Okay.

Speaker3: Um, grandparents. [01:15:55]

Speaker1: Grandparents.

Speaker3: Yeah, there’s four of them. So three. We [01:16:00] could we can we can make it four if you want. All the grandparents, I thought.

Speaker1: Yeah. Okay. [01:16:05] So look, I, I don’t know is the answer. I mean, there’s lots of people I could think of, [01:16:10] but to finalise it down to three, I don’t know.

Speaker3: It’s so interesting when you say grandparents because we had [01:16:15] our kids, grandparents had my wife’s parents over with us in Christmas. Yeah. [01:16:20] And we were talking about this notion of, um, hardly anyone knows the name of their grandparents. [01:16:25] Grandparents. Yeah. And and why is that like, is it, I mean, and [01:16:30] I was saying to my kids that your grandparents are right here, ask them about their grandparents. And [01:16:35] they did. They did. But we were sort of reflecting on that question of almost even though the [01:16:40] person’s there and they were in touch with that other person. And, you know, it goes to this question [01:16:45] of regretting not asking the questions. Right. It’s interesting.

Speaker1: And it’s something [01:16:50] I’ve actually said to my, my children as well that, um, they need to spend more time with. They’ve got four [01:16:55] grandparents at the moment. My kids. Yeah. No one’s passed away yet. They’ve got four people. They could be sitting down [01:17:00] and asking questions. Right? Yeah. And they don’t. They just it’s.

Speaker3: The kind of thing you only figure [01:17:05] out once you’ve lost it sort of thing, isn’t it?

Speaker1: And I try I like my dad’s been on well this year, the last year and this [01:17:10] year he’s on the mend now. But it’s one of the things I when he became unwell, I said to [01:17:15] my daughter, you need to talk to granddad a bit more, you know, just ask him stuff. He knows [01:17:20] stuff that you can’t even comprehend, you know? And once he’s gone, all that information [01:17:25] is gone with him. So it’s one of the things I do, I do believe strongly in. Yeah.

Speaker3: The [01:17:30] final question. Yeah, it’s a deathbed question on [01:17:35] your deathbed surrounded by your loved ones. Yeah. And [01:17:40] you had to give him three pieces of advice. What would they be?

Speaker1: Oh. Hold [01:17:45] your head high in failure and be humble [01:17:50] in success. Um, one of my dad’s favourites. [01:17:55] Don’t tell people what you’re going to do. Just do it. [01:18:00] Don’t. Don’t tell people what you’re going to get. Just get it. Because if you don’t get what you’re telling me, you’re going [01:18:05] to get, you come across the bullshit. So just, you know, just do things [01:18:10] rather than tell people about what you’re going to do. And then I think the other one is, again, one of my dad’s [01:18:15] don’t buy crap. Always, always buy [01:18:20] the best thing you can possibly afford. Don’t buy rubbish, because if you buy rubbish, you buy it twice, three times, etc. [01:18:25] etc. something I’m trying to get through to my kids. They live in this very sort of, you know, Chinese throwaway, sort [01:18:30] of, you know, Chinese plastic throwaway stuff. If it breaks, just chuck it out, chuck it out. I say to them, when we were younger, we used [01:18:35] to fix things. No one fixes anything anymore. Yeah. You know, buy quality.

Speaker3: I’m guilty of shopping [01:18:40] on Tick Tock Shop. Unfortunately, I know I’ve suffered with it. I don’t know why I don’t [01:18:45] learn my lesson, but what’s amazing about it is how frictionless it is to buy one [01:18:50] button when it comes to your house. Um, we didn’t really touch on. I [01:18:55] mean, you kind of alluded to it right there. Why are you so low profile, [01:19:00] Pete? Is it on purpose or by mistake?

Speaker1: I’m just not a very [01:19:05] showy person. I, I’m quite sort of humble. I like to keep things. I’m deliberately [01:19:10] low profile. Yeah. I don’t like putting myself out there too much. [01:19:15] Like doing this. I feel I’m, I felt quite nervous about doing it. I don’t like.

Speaker3: I caught that [01:19:20] vibe from you when I asked you.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. I don’t like cameras in my face I don’t like. So I’m, I’m [01:19:25] quite, I’m quite sort of, um, quite shy by nature. Really. Are you. Yeah. So [01:19:30] putting myself out there was probably through choice.

Speaker3: But. [01:19:35] And now I’ve got to.

Speaker1: Try and get myself out there more for the course. [01:19:40]

Speaker3: Are you happy about it or are you sad about it? Because you look. I’m shy, I [01:19:45] wish I wasn’t.

Speaker1: Yeah, of course, I mean, I wish I was more naturally extrovert. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker3: I [01:19:50] mean, and definitely you need to get out there more if you want to do a course. [01:19:55]

Speaker1: Yeah I know, yeah.

Speaker3: It’s, it’s of course it’s a very difficult thing, you know, to [01:20:00] keep it going for a long time. I take my hat off to people like, uh, Spear and Chris [01:20:05] and Chris Horn, you know, people who have been doing a tipped and people doing courses [01:20:10] for a long time. Yeah. And stayed relevant over a long period. [01:20:15] Um, because it’s very it’s great fun teaching. Let’s not get [01:20:20] this wrong. It’s wonderful, fun teaching those little light bulb moments what you said was [01:20:25] particularly pertinent. Right. We’re still in the area that you’re interested in and passionate about, but a different [01:20:30] angle on it and a bit of a change, you know, a bit of variety. Absolutely.

Speaker1: I don’t know [01:20:35] anything else. You know, like we talked about earlier, I started I made a decision to be a dentist at the age of 14. [01:20:40] I don’t know anything else. I, I literally if I had to have a career [01:20:45] change, I don’t know what it would be because I don’t know anything else.

Speaker3: Indulge us. What would it be? Not [01:20:50] not not what you’re good at. But what would I.

Speaker1: Like if.

Speaker3: Let’s just say alternate [01:20:55] universe, what other job would you do?

Speaker1: I like food [01:21:00] and wine. I think maybe something to do with food and wine. I don’t think [01:21:05] I’d like to be a chef because that’s. That’s hard. Food critic. Food critic. [01:21:10] Very good. Yeah. Wine taster, something like that. Um, I so I like things [01:21:15] like I say to my wife, there’s only two things I’m actually good at, and that’s fixing teeth and cooking. Um, [01:21:20] she agrees with me so she doesn’t try and, you know, say, no, no, you’re good at other things too. [01:21:25] But, you know, so if you had.

Speaker3: Half a day to yourself without any sort of expectation. Cooking, cooking, always [01:21:30] cooking.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: Would you cook.

Speaker1: Everything and anything I like? I particularly like slow cooking stuff. So [01:21:35] get, get me, um, like a pork shoulder or something like that. Beef ribs. Yeah. Love [01:21:40] it. Absolutely love it. I got myself on those, um, barbecue eggs. The green ones. [01:21:45] Not the green ones. I got a black one, a black, a black egg and, um. Yeah. Charcoal [01:21:50] cooking. I love it. So this. I can’t wait for the sun to come out so I can start doing it again. [01:21:55] But that that sort of thing is just a huge, huge, huge hobby of mine. Amazing.

Speaker3: Thank [01:22:00] you so much for doing this, buddy. You’re welcome. Thanks for coming. Coming in as well to do having me. Let’s [01:22:05] go get a steak. Thanks a lot man.

Speaker2: This [01:22:10] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get [01:22:15] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:22:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:22:25]

Speaker4: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in [01:22:30] for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:22:35] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give [01:22:40] us a.

Speaker1: Six star rating.

Speaker4: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber [01:22:45] driver.

Speaker3: Thanks a lot, guys. Bye.

Zak Kara: But if you don’t recognise the person in front of you and their real true wishes, [00:00:05] it’s kind of pointless. You know? That gets quite deep and philosophical. But panky one, some [00:00:10] of it was quite philosophical, and it makes you realise what you’re about as a person and why you’re in [00:00:15] dentistry and the communication stuff. And coming back to some of the banned words. One of the banned words [00:00:20] might be surgery. So the Americans call it an office, but we don’t call it a surgery in art. We call them treatment [00:00:25] rooms, because surgery is a word that conjures up images of all sorts of stuff you don’t want.

Intro Voice: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:40] Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:00:50] welcome Saqqara onto the podcast. I’m Zak Sagi, I’ve been following for years [00:00:55] now, and one thing that’s particularly made me sort [00:01:00] of interested in Zak’s musings is his approach to patient journey, [00:01:05] his approach to really, you know, private dentistry in the way that it really should [00:01:10] be done. Um, we get questions all the time, people who want to leave [00:01:15] the NHS, and there are different characters. You know, there’s the character who thinks that NHS [00:01:20] dentistry is, um, you know, private dentistry is NHS dentistry at a higher price? Um, [00:01:25] and then, you know, you get all the way to people who want to focus on one particular [00:01:30] type of treatment, um, segmenting patients, making sure that the person [00:01:35] who comes into your chair is the person who should be there and being kind of pre-screened, [00:01:40] and it’s going to be a real sort of, I think a [00:01:45] pod that’s going to give us a lot of value. Um, to talk to Zak, I will go through the, [00:01:50] you know, life story part as well. But it’s a pleasure to have you, Zack.

Zak Kara: Thanks very much for having [00:01:55] me. I appreciate it. As I said earlier on before we started, um, I’ve been listening to what you guys do for a long [00:02:00] time, and, um, it makes me feel very honoured to to be asked, so thanks for it.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Yeah. [00:02:05] Excellent. You get different types of guests as well. You get guests who say that, and then [00:02:10] and then you get guests who say, oh, yeah, I’ve been waiting so long. How come it took so long as well? So [00:02:15] thanks a lot for coming in, actually, because, you know, you come all [00:02:20] the way from Bournemouth. Um, and it’s I always find the in person interviews so much, so much [00:02:25] more sort of intimate than, than on zoom. Um, and the other thing I want to say [00:02:30] is that, uh, I’ve been doing going to a few events in the last few weeks and the [00:02:35] number of people who are coming up to me and asking about the podcast. And so wherever you are right now, [00:02:40] whether you’re, you know, on your way to work, which seems to be the the most common one, or [00:02:45] walking the dog or taking a run, um, you know, I salute you. I salute you for, you [00:02:50] know, wanting more dentistry because, you know, it’s quite fashionable these days to hate your job [00:02:55] and all of that. But there’s many, many of us who love our jobs. And, um, [00:03:00] Zack is the kind of person who, I don’t know, on on the outside, [00:03:05] I feel like you adore being a dentist, that you love it. Um, now, whether that’s [00:03:10] the Meccano side or whether it’s the actual the running of the place and, and one [00:03:15] thing I’ve noticed with Isaac is that you’ve got a sort of looking at things from a lateral [00:03:20] angle, thinking outside the box kind of kind of thing. And you’re very good at putting that into words. [00:03:25] Into simple words. Oh. Thank you. Yeah. Um, so I want to I want to, you know, with this podcast, we tend [00:03:30] to start with where were you born? But sometimes with my [00:03:35] ADHD side, if I don’t ask the question that I want to ask straight away, yeah, I [00:03:40] end up just not listening to anything else and just waiting to ask that question. And really the [00:03:45] question is around that, around, you know, why did you become this guy who [00:03:50] who is just so good at talking?

Zak Kara: Do you think I’m good at talking? Yeah, I’ve got [00:03:55] high expectations. Well, you must have set high expectations for this. Pardon? Um, I look [00:04:00] I love a chat. Yeah. The deep down origins probably go to together with the question you were going. Well the [00:04:05] traditional first question, which is that I grew up in my dad’s record shop. You guys have heard this all before on [00:04:10] the podcast with Prav background and so on and so forth. Um, so I grew up getting to know people’s [00:04:15] stories, and you’ll write that my approach to dentistry is definitely been that I look at things [00:04:20] slightly laterally compared to most technical minded dentists, but there’s still a huge [00:04:25] element of my day to day that I love in that artistry and that finesse and that [00:04:30] attention to detail. That’s it. The thing that I that really, really gets [00:04:35] me out of bed these days is actually a bit deeper than that. It’s connecting people to [00:04:40] their real skill set. And I found that the power of words and your processes and [00:04:45] your workflows, and what you can create as an organisation is really what makes me excited. [00:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: I see. And so this practice that you’re in right now. [00:04:55] Yeah. Did you rename it Smile Stories or did you buy it as Smile Stories?

Zak Kara: Back [00:05:00] story okay. If you want the overview. But the brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Brand I love it. You know, I [00:05:05] must have come across a thousand different names for dental practices, but that’s a great one.

Zak Kara: I’m [00:05:10] not going to compare us to any other practice, but what I do find, and funny enough, you mentioned a bit earlier [00:05:15] on in the intro. Thank you. That’s very kind of you. What you said, um, is that a lot of practices [00:05:20] become dentistry according to what that clinician or those clinicians believe dentistry [00:05:25] to be, because that’s all they’ve done in their careers. And then they put a private price tag [00:05:30] on it. Yeah. And then they go, well, you sit down in the chair and it’s fee per item, and this is how you do dentistry. [00:05:35] And then some take it to the next level, which I would call private private dentistry, which [00:05:40] is rubber dam, comprehensive thinking and all the rest of it. Those practices are sometimes [00:05:45] fine can become a little bit, I don’t know, forgive the terminology, but kind of up their own ass [00:05:50] kind of a bit. Big picture. They think they’re so big thinking [00:05:55] that they kind of just lose sight of themselves and they become quite pretentious. [00:06:00] And actually, I found that when you then look wider afield. For example, [00:06:05] I’ve just been over in Chicago at midwinter meetings and American dentistry got brought to the UK, [00:06:10] you know, 20, 30, 30 years ago. Now that makes us feel old. Um, and I was aspiring to this [00:06:15] stuff when I was a dental student, you know, 2004. I began at dental school not that long ago, but 20 years ago. And [00:06:20] I thought that I was aspiring to be the Larry Rosenthal dentist. The white coat [00:06:25] that made you a big deal and you could easily call a practice, I don’t know. I heard of one the other day.

Zak Kara: What was it? [00:06:30] Uh, dental philosophy. And I thought to myself, okay, by the way, this practice hasn’t [00:06:35] become, uh, come to be. So, um, maybe I shouldn’t have said that, but, um, this was a mooted [00:06:40] idea, and I don’t think this is going forward, but it becomes something that’s a little bit kind of, I don’t know. [00:06:45] Again, forgive the terminology, but a bit wonky. And that isn’t really me. So [00:06:50] what will you became? Small stories. Yeah. You’re right. It, um, it evolved from a [00:06:55] chicken fuelled weekend, literally and metaphorically. I’ve sat on a old school [00:07:00] waiting room floor of what was called Castle Lane Dental Care in Bournemouth, um, alongside my now business [00:07:05] partner and absolutely one of my best friends in the world, Gareth Edwards, who’s a kind of, um, the [00:07:10] kind of dentist that doesn’t bang his own drum but really works hard, like the hardest working white guy [00:07:15] you’ve ever met kind of thing. But, like, yeah, properly works hard, okay. And he puts in the hours and the slog [00:07:20] and he gets it. And he was one of the few guys I’ve ever come across when I was like, I don’t want to compete with you. I want to collaborate with you. [00:07:25] You really get it. And so we think that we’ve created something that’s quite special and unique in small [00:07:30] stories, because we do genuinely believe and we, our team, it’s become instilled in them, that it’s about the relationship with [00:07:35] the person. So it’s that middle ground between what people think dentistry is and [00:07:40] that overdone, overzealous Charlie big potato. I’m [00:07:45] I’m a pretentious dentist, dentist, white coat dentist. That’s not us at all.

Payman Langroudi: So when [00:07:50] you say he got it. Hmm. What was the sort of the moment, the sort of resonating [00:07:55] story or the what was the.

Zak Kara: Thing you got?

Payman Langroudi: What’s the thing he got? [00:08:00] You know, like, so because, you know, dentists, you know, so, so, [00:08:05] so happy that so many different types of people listen to this. Right. But there are there [00:08:10] are people out there who are dental students. There are people out there who are dental nurses. And then there’s [00:08:15] every type of dentists you could imagine, and quite a large number abroad as well, right, where the [00:08:20] culture is different. Yeah. So if you had to distil it down, to bottle it down [00:08:25] to what is it he got that that resonated with you. That’s so few of us get. [00:08:30]

Zak Kara: Great question. I think the moment was when Gareth and I [00:08:35] actually just began to realise I literally sent him. And by the way, this proves that if you’re ever [00:08:40] thinking, oh, they’re an interesting kind of guy kind of girl, jump into their DMs, just [00:08:45] have a conversation with them, because it literally began with that. I said, you’re in your 20s or 30s, you’re in Bournemouth. [00:08:50] Um, I’ve never heard of you before. It would be great to meet you. We went for a coffee, turned [00:08:55] into another coffee, turned into a beer. It was like dating. And the thing that we got [00:09:00] about one another and we got about dentistry, I believe, is this. It’s [00:09:05] the fact that. The whole picture [00:09:10] can only be created properly in dentistry. Comprehensive minded dentistry in [00:09:15] a playing the long game slow burn kind of way. I think the best way for me to explain this [00:09:20] is this. So I spend a lot of time around jazz. Jazz. Gulati I know you know pretty well. [00:09:25] Um, and in conversations with jazz, the thing that I realised is there’s [00:09:30] a lot of dentists out there who are in their first, let’s say, 5 or 10 years or even beyond that. They’re doing fee per item dentistry [00:09:35] or they’re doing NHS dentistry and they want to take it to the next level. The way that we found you can [00:09:40] take to the next level is only by having the person in front of you, your patient or [00:09:45] client, having them opt in to the dentistry themselves [00:09:50] because they came up with the idea themselves, and the power of the journey of how [00:09:55] to get them there matters.

Zak Kara: It’s an entire it’s an all encompassing thing. It’s everything [00:10:00] from the way it looks in the clinic, smells in the clinic, the words that are used on the answer to [00:10:05] the phone or actually, quite uniquely, we don’t answer the phone. That’s a bit weird, I know, and [00:10:10] it’s quite self-selecting and it’s maybe a bit too niche for some practices. But even if you’re a new [00:10:15] potential client or patient, there’s a process. It shouldn’t ever be obtrusive. [00:10:20] It shouldn’t ever be so many obstacles that it becomes that thing that we were mentioning earlier that you disappear up your own arse. [00:10:25] Yeah, but there’s enough self-selecting aspects to it. And that’s the thing I think Gareth [00:10:30] really got, which was that he’s technical minded enough to realise we can do this. We [00:10:35] have to some extent then in some ways kind of scaled it back a little bit over the years because, [00:10:40] um, it becomes too complex. And so, for example, 2020 four’s theme amongst Gareth, between [00:10:45] Gareth and I is simplify or delete because we’ve created a bit of a Frankenstein, [00:10:50] which can be a pain in the neck to onboard new team members with. So there isn’t to say we think we’ve created some sort [00:10:55] of gospel, but what we have created is definitely unique.

Payman Langroudi: We get more specific. I mean, what [00:11:00] does that even mean?

Zak Kara: Do you mean in terms of the patient journey or do you mean. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When, when, when [00:11:05] when you say that the patient will come asking for the treatment. Okay. What is it. What [00:11:10] does it mean? I mean, give us give me an example of a person.

Zak Kara: Okay. So I’ll give you an example. So um, we [00:11:15] created the brand if you want to call it that. Small stories, not from [00:11:20] the logo or whatever. Some practices tend to kind of like spin things around in the [00:11:25] backwards kind of way. And then we called it this. And then we live on we’re on this street. So we called it that. We began with small [00:11:30] stories because we realised that people matter and it’s all about not necessarily the technical craftsmanship [00:11:35] of the dentistry, but how it makes people feel. And the power of a story, as you all know, is very, [00:11:40] very, uh, compelling. Yeah. Okay. So if you want the, the nitty gritty, [00:11:45] um, let’s say client I met the other day in her 50s, um, [00:11:50] had come to see us in quite a different headspace as opposed to some, uh, new clients. Her [00:11:55] husband had seen Gareth some years back in a different clinic, and she came [00:12:00] in to see us and said, Dave got me a chatterbox set of teeth for Christmas and [00:12:05] said, I’m going to. You want to go and see the guys at Smyths Toys? They’ll look after you because she’d done too [00:12:10] much continual drip, drip, drip. Commenting [00:12:15] on the nature of her teeth, the fact they break all the time and all the rest of it, she’d already arrived [00:12:20] at that decision making point in her, in her, in her life, her dental life, if you want to call it that.

Zak Kara: Where she realised she [00:12:25] didn’t want to do that anymore. Yeah. And so she contacted us and she was already in that headspace, which we [00:12:30] didn’t need to do much to guide her with. But there are other people that are at the other end of the spectrum. Most [00:12:35] of them begin at the other end of the spectrum, which is that they come to see us and they go, I’d like straighter, whiter teeth, or [00:12:40] they go, ah, this crown really bugs me. And I had an injury when I was in my 20s. So how you [00:12:45] carve the path for that person matters. A lot of practices. They’ll phone up receptionist, [00:12:50] they’ll answer the phone, they’ll go, yeah. The next availability with Zac is two and a half weeks away and [00:12:55] it’s £95. I’m not saying that you [00:13:00] should create too many barriers to entry, but that’s frictionless. That process is [00:13:05] too frictionless, and any old goodness knows who will land in your chair. [00:13:10] And our belief is that the dental treatment room time, we call it a treatment room, by the way, [00:13:15] not a surgery because nobody likes surgery. So we’re very hot on words and quite pedantic about it with our [00:13:20] team, because as soon as that becomes contagious, it becomes contagious. And you can’t scale that back. You can’t pull that [00:13:25] back once it’s disappeared. So words matter. Um, the [00:13:30] process, though, for somebody who’s phoned up with that kind of headspace [00:13:35] needs to be guided.

Zak Kara: So we ask for photographs, for example. There’s a specific process that we follow [00:13:40] and we go so that we can guide you best. And our team of dentists can make sure that we [00:13:45] offer the right type of treatment or the the right type of advice. When you come to see us in the building, [00:13:50] could you help us question mark. That’s it. Shut up. So [00:13:55] they might WhatsApp them back this question or they might phone it might be a conversation on the phone to be fair. And they have to ask [00:14:00] answer the question with yeah, sure. And the answer to that is therefore [00:14:05] next step. What a lot of our clients find is that by sending us a set of photographs, by the way, I can send you [00:14:10] some example photos on WhatsApp. It’s so easy now. Smartphones are so clever, blah blah blah blah blah. If [00:14:15] you can show us different angles, we can give you some free advice. Do you know the the [00:14:20] thing about that that’s interesting is probably about 30% of the time I have Laura or Hannah [00:14:25] or Hannah, our care coordinators come and see us. And there’s certain specific times of the day where we do things collaboratively [00:14:30] like that. And I’ll go. I really don’t think, given the nature of the goals that this person is presenting to us, [00:14:35] I don’t think we can help her.

Payman Langroudi: Just from that.

Zak Kara: Just from that. Love that. [00:14:40] And the reason why is because, to be blunt about it, hey, we’re busy enough to not have [00:14:45] to be so, um, so desperate.

Payman Langroudi: To take to see everyone. [00:14:50]

Zak Kara: Exactly. And I’ve worked in other clinics where we used to look after footballers and footballers wives, which was the least fun [00:14:55] ever, by the way. Don’t aspire to that, if that’s what you think. In the first two years out of uni you think you want to do. [00:15:00] Yeah, um, certainly not my way of doing it anyway. Um, and the other way of doing it is [00:15:05] basically to go, okay, well, we charge £500 for a new visit or. Oh, by the way, we charge 250. [00:15:10] And by the way, most of our clients need a CBT which is 250. So everyone knows in that type of clinic they’re [00:15:15] walking in the door and it’s going to cost them £500. And they think that by being wealthy that [00:15:20] fixes the problem. The problem with that type of mindset is they will always think they can throw money [00:15:25] at a problem. So we treat and we treat and look after normal people with normal jobs. But it’s [00:15:30] about finding and cherry picking them.

Payman Langroudi: So is Hannah. Was that her name? [00:15:35]

Zak Kara: Hannah and Laura.

Payman Langroudi: And Laura is so well trained that they can make those decisions [00:15:40] themselves or or they write most of the time, [00:15:45] or what happens? Do you know, what is it about that patient’s goals and the photos that they showed you? [00:15:50] Okay.

Zak Kara: So we actually find it’s quite interesting. I don’t know if maybe if you’re listening to this, you probably thinking [00:15:55] I’ve never followed a process like that, but probably the closest thing to it that you will have done is [00:16:00] I believe you can tell a lot, even from somebody coming into the building. And let’s say they’re filling in a medical [00:16:05] history form. Yeah. Or back in the day when small stories began and evolved from [00:16:10] just myself and Tasha. Tasha is a nurse, dental hygienist, therapist who now became [00:16:15] my wife. Um, and these things happen sometimes. And, uh, uh, Tasha and I [00:16:20] just began on evenings and weekends, and we used to give somebody a medical history and a dental history, and that was [00:16:25] from the evolution from a bit of an amalgamation of Pangaea and the roots that I, um, [00:16:30] came from one two years out of university and then some choice and some other bits and bobs from the US. [00:16:35] And when you plug the MH in the dental history in together into a what I thought was quite [00:16:40] a concise thing and you put it in somebody’s hand, you can find out a lot just from their handwriting [00:16:45] even, and from the nature of the words they use, even from the kind of style of their grammar [00:16:50] in that they might say, okay, so one of the questions on the dental history might be, tell [00:16:55] us about your previous dental experiences.

Zak Kara: Oh my God, worst thing ever. Hate this torture. [00:17:00] They can immediately tell their expectations of always look isn’t to say we can’t treat [00:17:05] them, but if that goes together with the other thing, which is I want a perfect smile and [00:17:10] I’ve got to be ten out of ten. And by the way, it’s my daughter’s wedding in two months. And I’m like, whoa, [00:17:15] whoa, chill out. Too many things. We’re trying to solve too many things at once. And then I’m [00:17:20] thinking, is this a particularly, um, is the person got the temperament of the kind of person who [00:17:25] is going to be flexible and, you know, they’re given the nature of the fact they need [00:17:30] replacement of at least six crowns that I can see. And I’m probably a bit of author and maybe a bit of grafting [00:17:35] and a bit of complicated work, like you can just tell sometimes, and to be honest with you, it’s [00:17:40] a bit of a busy restaurant philosophy.

Payman Langroudi: Pay your chips. So basically you’re trying [00:17:45] to get the information that many of us get in the first assessment ahead of [00:17:50] time.

Zak Kara: Yeah, because treatment room time is sacred to me. To us, the treatment room time. [00:17:55]

Payman Langroudi: From a business perspective, you mean. Yeah. Yeah.

Zak Kara: From a business perspective. But also because.

Payman Langroudi: Time is.

Zak Kara: Sacred. Yeah. [00:18:00] Time is sacred. But also as an associate, let’s say back in the day, I used to work in I’ve worked in probably 15 different [00:18:05] clinics in one shape or form a day here, a day there, NHS one, one one. I’ve done it all [00:18:10] as an associate. Right. And I’ve seen it and done it the ways that I believe that you can do so [00:18:15] much better. And I’ve kind of from each one of those little episodes gone. I wouldn’t do it like that. That’s a bit, that’s a bit weird [00:18:20] or oh, I like that. Actually. They do a 3D scan as the first thing they do when they walk in the treatment room. Oh [00:18:25] that’s cool, I like that, and I’ve cherry picked that and I’ve amalgamated it into some of my best friends [00:18:30] in dentistry. Cringe when they hear this because I say it all the time. You’re a patchwork quilt. Yeah, I’m a patchwork [00:18:35] quilt, and we all are. And you just choose the bits that seem to resonate the most with you.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:18:40] think. I mean, the the situation is that most of us don’t [00:18:45] do that as much as you’ve done it right. Most of us tend to sort [00:18:50] of just follow a, like you said at the beginning, a particular kind of way of doing dentistry [00:18:55] that you saw in a the best one of the 12 practices, maybe, that you worked at. [00:19:00] And I get what you’re saying. Of course, there’s I’ve worked in practices where it’s a brilliant [00:19:05] practice, but the boss was a fool. Yeah. You know, and even though that seems like [00:19:10] a difficult thing because, you know, he’s obviously not that much of a fool because it’s a brilliant practice. [00:19:15] Sure. But, you know, he did something that I would never do. Or all the opposite [00:19:20] situations sometimes is a wonderful area and it’s a bad practice, sometimes a brilliant practice and the wrong area. All [00:19:25] those different permutations. Most of us end up doing the same [00:19:30] thing, and yet you almost on purpose are kind of [00:19:35] doing anything to be different.

Zak Kara: Yeah, almost to our own detriment sometimes [00:19:40] in honesty.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s going to be a downside to that. There’s going to be a downside to that. But but but with you definitely, [00:19:45] you know, it’s almost like you’re innovating in a patient journey and and [00:19:50] all that. And I’m sure clinically you’re looking to lots of different places as well. And and all that. What [00:19:55] is it about you that you know? What what was it about you that made you into that guy? [00:20:00]

Zak Kara: You know, I’ve pondered this quite a lot. Um, my sister and I talk [00:20:05] about it once in a while when we, um. When I was growing up, I grew up in my dad’s record [00:20:10] shop, and my dad’s a my mum and dad were first generation immigrants from Kenya. And, [00:20:15] you know, as a kid or a or a in your 20s, maybe even early [00:20:20] 20s, probably at that point in my life, I was thinking I was rebelling against that because [00:20:25] there was a lot of what I believed at that point to be control. My parents were so controlling classic [00:20:30] Indian burners in in record shops.

Payman Langroudi: A bit different though, right?

Zak Kara: A bit quirky. But this is interesting because my dad’s [00:20:35] approach to things, my mum and dad’s approach was let’s leave West London, where all of their my mum’s [00:20:40] side of my family landed in the UK, and let’s do something a bit different. So they moved to north west Kent, [00:20:45] which was seen as crazy. You’re moving to Dartford. What. What is Dartford. Yeah. [00:20:50] You have to go b260 from M25. B260 off the M25, [00:20:55] Abbey road was like oh what, what is that. Yeah. Crazy. So you know Mum and dad uh [00:21:00] were commuting into London which again was seen as crazy. You have to wait at the train station in, in the snow. And so I think that [00:21:05] probably deep down when, when you realise you can do something different, [00:21:10] I think it’s probably almost the challenge deep down inside me of what [00:21:15] if we thought a bit differently and just went, let’s follow our nose. And and that’s part of life’s fun, [00:21:20] isn’t it? Part of life’s fun is being is challenging yourself. Like, for example, on the train to come and see you today. [00:21:25] I was on my computer, and if somebody had been over my shoulder or sat next to me, they’d have been thinking, I’m a software developer. [00:21:30]

Zak Kara: Because I was working automations, I was working on different ways of connecting software together and integrating [00:21:35] them together to make our team’s life easier because we pay about, I think in total per [00:21:40] annum, something like 56K on different, uh, bits of software and automations that charge us [00:21:45] per usage, different ways of doing things. But that to me is at least one team member salary. [00:21:50] So it’s just thinking a bit outside the box and going, [00:21:55] I love a bit of tech. I can learn something different. I’ll learn something different. One of my best friends, [00:22:00] Chris, who’s a complete opposite end of the spectrum, Chris and Emily. I met them at first day, first week of dental school. [00:22:05] Chris is now Max facts consultant. Congrats! By the way, if you’re listening to this Chris C you literally just finished [00:22:10] and he’s been through the whole journey 17 years, 15, 16, 17 years later, uh, and [00:22:15] he, uh, realises that, um, we’re just [00:22:20] so worlds apart. But you can do all those things in dentistry because you use your your basis of your [00:22:25] degree or your, your clinical aspects of things. And you go, hmm. What if [00:22:30] I just think differently?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But, you know, I, I [00:22:35] must have thought a bit differently to want to give up dentistry, right? Yeah. Um, and, you know, start a teeth [00:22:40] whitening company. And people ask me all the time, how the hell did that happen? And in a way, [00:22:45] I feel like I just fell into it. Um, but when I analyse it, when [00:22:50] I do look back, I do think in my situation, I went to school [00:22:55] with some interesting cats and, uh, listening to the stories of their family businesses [00:23:00] was maybe inspired me a little bit. Um, I was [00:23:05] particularly disappointed with what a dental practice is when [00:23:10] we became dentists. And by the way, my my first job [00:23:15] adore the guy, but but it was an NHS practice. Yeah. And I [00:23:20] just couldn’t believe that this was what dentistry was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now the reason for that was we [00:23:25] had a revolution in Iran and we came, we just ran away and came. And [00:23:30] our first dentist in the UK was our dentist from Iran, same guy who’d also [00:23:35] who’d also run away. Turned out he was a super duper. But we didn’t know he was just our dentist. Right. [00:23:40] Um, but he he set up in Harley Street, so we went and saw him in Harley [00:23:45] Street. I didn’t even know what the Harley Street was right at the beginning. Yeah. Um, and, [00:23:50] you know, it was a very plush place. That’s the dentist, right? That’s what it is. Yeah. So in my head, [00:23:55] that was what the dentist was, is that thing. Yeah. And then when I first saw dentistry, the real [00:24:00] dentistry, I was like, oh my God. Yeah. I couldn’t believe it.

Zak Kara: And you become conditioned don’t you. To that. And I believe dentists [00:24:05] generally, especially in the UK appreciate a lot of people listening will be overseas as well. But [00:24:10] in the UK in particular, it’s deep rooted in whatever we’ve been doing for the last 20, 30, 40, 50 [00:24:15] years. We actually utilise that to our advantage. By the way, some of our marketing and some of our sort of ingrained conversations [00:24:20] we have with our clients and patients is we say things like, it’s not 1995, [00:24:25] we don’t do old fashioned scrape and polish, because that isn’t what we believe dentistry should be [00:24:30] provided, as it’s a gentle we call it a jet wash and a thorough, uh, gentle [00:24:35] but thorough clean of your teeth and your gum foundations and blah di blah di blah di blah. And how you explain that [00:24:40] and go about demonstrating that and then proving it really does set you apart. But [00:24:45] you need to be surrounded by people coming back a little bit to the Gareth thing. You need to be surrounded by [00:24:50] people that get it, that kind of realise that it can be different, and it’s about actually being bold and brave [00:24:55] enough to do something different a little bit like my dad’s and my mum did when they moved away from West London, and [00:25:00] their little nest of their, their extended family, and they realised that actually I look back at [00:25:05] that in hindsight and think to myself, they probably did a lot of things that they did out of fear, [00:25:10] and a lot of the advice they give us is deep rooted in fear as well. They [00:25:15] moved away from East Africa when Idi Amin in the 70s forced a lot of Indians out. It was literally as close [00:25:20] to the bone as, by the way, you’ve got however many weeks or months or you all of your [00:25:25] assets, literally imagine all of your assets, every penny to your name and everything you’ve worked for, [00:25:30] your family’s entire history gone. It will be acquired [00:25:35] by the state. Take a Kenya passport or take a British passport. Underestimate.

Payman Langroudi: You mustn’t underestimate. [00:25:40] I think Rona calls it generational trauma. Yeah. You mustn’t underestimate [00:25:45] that. Yeah, that even though you were born here and you had none of that. Yeah. The stories, [00:25:50] the fear, you’ll hear those stories from your parents and grandparents, [00:25:55] they they they permeate you and, you know, they kind of define the person [00:26:00] that you become after that.

Zak Kara: Deep down, you do. Yeah. And but the the more years you get [00:26:05] on the, on the, on in your own life, um, in your 20s and 30s, I think [00:26:10] it only took until my late 20s, early 30s, now nearly late 30s, uh, when I [00:26:15] realised that there’s a lot more to it and the reasons behind some of the things they said and did, the way they acted, [00:26:20] even as subtle as my dad. I always remember finishing school, um, [00:26:25] getting back to the shop. Um, mum at one point had to commute to London from [00:26:30] south east London to to work in the civil service to supplement the family income. My parents insisted [00:26:35] that we went to a we went to a private primary school for a for a short while, and beyond that point [00:26:40] they’d just run out of funds to be able to do it, but to be able to sustain it, that’s what they did. Um, and [00:26:45] my I remember being around in the shop with dad from about 4 p.m. till about [00:26:50] 630, when we’d. Pick up mum from the station down the road in Longfield. And one [00:26:55] time dad was sweeping the floor and he had, I don’t know what the actual. I think it might [00:27:00] be Swahili, but I think basically he called it foggy or so foggy. Is is a is a is a broom, is [00:27:05] a broom. But such an old worn down broom that the handle, I swear, was so tatty [00:27:10] it was like a stick, like a like a twig that had got so worn thin because he’d held it in a particular [00:27:15] place.

Zak Kara: And I mean this. I’m not just kind of telling you a story. The broom itself was so [00:27:20] curled back on itself that the bristles weren’t bristles anymore. And I used to go, dad, why don’t you get a new broom? [00:27:25] This is my broom. I’ve done it this way the entire longer than you were born. [00:27:30] 1983. They started the shop. We were born in 85, 86. My sister and I and [00:27:35] I at one point said, why do you do this every day, dad? You. We’ve gone around the entire shop. It’s a loop, a record [00:27:40] shop. Um, so you’ve gone around the entire shop. There’s barely any dust. He said. Something [00:27:45] will stick with me. He said, it’s [00:27:50] not about what you’re doing. It’s about how well you do it and what [00:27:55] you demonstrate and what that demonstrates to others, or words to that effect. And [00:28:00] how you do anything is how you do everything. If you put that amount of effort [00:28:05] into sweeping the floor, when people walk past and go, oh, Mr. Carr is sweeping the floor. They literally [00:28:10] used to call him Mr. Carr Micro famous in his little village in Kent. He was [00:28:15] micro famous. He was on the radio once, my dad. The local radio. [00:28:20] Uh, and, um, but it applies.

Payman Langroudi: To dentistry, right? Because the patient can’t see what you’re [00:28:25] doing at all. There you go. And so we have to demonstrate it to them in other ways. Um, [00:28:30] now let’s, let’s, let’s go through the, the basics of [00:28:35] I mean, I know you’re, you’re big on pain free injections, which which I am too. I really [00:28:40] I think I think if you if you get proficient at pain free injections, it’s better for [00:28:45] your career than an MSC in restorative dentistry. Um, because those patients [00:28:50] tell patients and those patients stick with you. And the magic that a patient feels [00:28:55] the first time they get a pain free injection because they’ve had so many other injections. [00:29:00] So so we’ll get we’ll get to specifics. Right. So so pain free injections obviously. [00:29:05] But tell me about some other sort of interesting non-clinical cuz [00:29:10] like for me I visit practices coffee. The [00:29:15] quality of the coffee to me tells me all sorts of stuff about incorrectly [00:29:20] by the way. Yeah, incorrectly because there are some practices, brilliant clinicians, brilliant [00:29:25] equipment, crap coffee that that happens. Yeah. And the opposite and the [00:29:30] opposite. But I’m so biased on coffee that if I get when I go in [00:29:35] and they say coffee, I say sometimes they never say coffee. Right. So that says a lot, right? Yeah. You say coffee, [00:29:40] I say sure. Sometimes they’ve been criss barrowed up. They say something like a latte or [00:29:45] flat white and that’s that’s always nice to hear that. Right.

Zak Kara: So you hear the machine going in the background [00:29:50] and you’re thinking, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Flat white whatever. Yeah, yeah. Generally I expect it to be rubbish. [00:29:55] Yeah. And sometimes amazing coffee comes out. Right now nothing’s happened. I haven’t met the principal [00:30:00] yet. I haven’t seen the equipment yet. All I’ve had is a sip of coffee. But I’m already making [00:30:05] all sorts of deductions. And I’ve been to a thousand practices. Here are patients. [00:30:10] Um, can you think of other, other cues? I mean, obviously General Clinic in your.

Zak Kara: Mind here, we don’t [00:30:15] offer coffee. Do you know, we intentionally don’t offer coffee because, uh, although [00:30:20] those five senses do matter, and taste does matter. Our approach to it is that [00:30:25] the smell, the sound, the sight that everything else and [00:30:30] including smell like, you know, like a decent, uh, restaurant or hotel does, uh, it always smells [00:30:35] right. Yeah. The lobby smells right. The. We call it front of house. Our lounge smells right. Um, [00:30:40] the look is right. It’s earthy, it’s real. There’s brick wall exposed genuinely by my own [00:30:45] hands, grinding a brick wall, brick dust in my hair through the build phase of the new clinic last year. [00:30:50] Um, and all of those things to us, kind of even the brick [00:30:55] wall. I deep down believe that that matters because it says real. [00:31:00] So our approach to it is real. That isn’t necessarily your approach or another clinic’s approach, but [00:31:05] it’s our approach. There are intentionally real plants in there in the lounge. It’s [00:31:10] because the words that we use with our clients are real as well. So we have two front of house crew [00:31:15] members. One of them will be sat down. One of them sat up or stood up at a greet station that we have. We intentionally [00:31:20] utilise that as a bit of a kind of natural, you know, when you go to a decent restaurant and there’s almost like [00:31:25] a natural waiting point.

Zak Kara: Yeah. Like, you know, you’re gonna tell somebody that you’ve got a reservation or whatever here, that’s [00:31:30] your greet station. And that’s also a point where it stops any old Tom, Dick and Harry walking [00:31:35] in off the street and making a big old, big old mess of our experience for our real clients. [00:31:40] Yeah. So we can utilise on a little tablet that we have in built into the greet station. We can utilise [00:31:45] that space to jump on a website and scroll through. And oh, by the way, here’s an example of our previous client stories. [00:31:50] And sometimes we divert that human being into the client. Coordinator’s room we call [00:31:55] them cos not tcos care coordinators to us feels more, um, authentic [00:32:00] than a treatment coordinator. They’re coordinating your care. Okay, so [00:32:05] that’s one of our methods physically in the building. Um, but there are [00:32:10] plenty more, as I was kind of alluding to a bit earlier on, which are a bit more kind of, um, uh, tech orientated or [00:32:15] virtual, let’s say, um, and the photos and the part of that process is very unique to us. Um, [00:32:20] the.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about other banned words.

Zak Kara: Haha. And do you know what we actually [00:32:25] have? I used to work.

Payman Langroudi: In a practice. The word dentist was banned.

Zak Kara: Oh really? Yeah, they say instead. Surgeon. Oh, [00:32:30] surgeon who’s.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s your surgeon?

Zak Kara: Hahaha. Terrible. Um, it [00:32:35] might work for some clinics and yeah, he will.

Payman Langroudi: He wanted to really push over that sort of doctory [00:32:40] sort of implant centre. And I.

Zak Kara: Can see that, that, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know what a banned words in your.

Zak Kara: Practice. So we have [00:32:45] a list of nearly 50 of them pay 5050 and not joking. And we actually call it the team thesaurus [00:32:50] because some of them are banned words and some of them are instead of this, try this. So Gareth [00:32:55] and I, when we were scoping out the build and some of the inspiration for the new clinic that we moved into, [00:33:00] we we basically outgrew that old fashioned Castle Lane dental care that I mentioned earlier on, with its horrible [00:33:05] carpet that was fraying around the edges. And Tash used to come in and do the little haircut on the beginning of the day. [00:33:10] And, uh, you know, the old fashioned artex on the ceiling outgrew that place, moved into the new purpose built clinic. [00:33:15] Last year, Gareth and I went up to Manchester, and the inspiration we got behind a lot of the team thesaurus [00:33:20] and how you embed it into the team was actually from lush. We went into lush because we were just interested [00:33:25] in how they display things. Um, and we started talking to somebody by the dental section. They had [00:33:30] like some dental aspects of things, probably fluoride free toothpaste and God knows what else, right? Yeah. Sales [00:33:35] essentially. Assistant came over probably in her early 20s, and [00:33:40] she was so good. She was amazing about talking about her products in a particular way. [00:33:45] And we literally asked her at the end of this 20 minute conversation, we had to come clean and go, we’re dentists. We’re here in Manchester [00:33:50] doing a bit of scoping out of like, you know what’s cool in the Manchester? Because we love the city, right. Wicked city. [00:33:55] Um, and she said, well, we, we start the day with [00:34:00] focusing as a team. One of our product specialists will focus on their particular angle on things, and [00:34:05] it’s part of our drip, drip, drip feed training. So we instilled that in as part of our [00:34:10] most practices. Call it a team huddle or we have a ten minute meeting every morning starts at 8 a.m. sharp till 8:10, [00:34:15] 8:10 till 8:30. Our our clinical team and our non-clinical team set up.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [00:34:20] going to have to interrupt you because I know to you it seems like second nature. Yeah, but [00:34:25] plenty of practices don’t have team huddles. What happens?

Zak Kara: Ah, okay. So [00:34:30] the band words come up, she’ll come on to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh do they, do they. Yeah.

Zak Kara: At the end of the team ten minute meeting.

Payman Langroudi: Just literally [00:34:35] take me through it okay. You go through patients coming in today. Yes. And what about them?

Zak Kara: We might begin [00:34:40] the day. So this is important. It’s it’s not led by the boss. It’s not led by principles. [00:34:45] It’s not led by a manager. It’s led by front of house. Because our front of house crew are building [00:34:50] coordinators. They’re the they’re the clinic coordinator for that day. So they’re the point of contact. And the team [00:34:55] need to know psychologically that if I’ve got all you know, what hitting the fan my [00:35:00] go to is Alice this morning. And Alice comes with her pre-printed day schedule. [00:35:05] Um, as I mentioned tech earlier on, um, forgive all the tangents, by [00:35:10] the way, but one of the things we do in tech is, uh, we custom built our own software, [00:35:15] which is a client scheduling software which integrates with Dental. It pulls out the information for the day [00:35:20] in question, and it prints it in a particular way that we like it designed. Because on that day schedule, [00:35:25] yes, you have a list of clients that that clinician is seeing, but it also indicates which nurse is working with them. [00:35:30] And on the right hand side, it also has space for them to jot down what it is, notes for that [00:35:35] particular client. And on the right hand side there’s also three columns. One of them is next in [00:35:40] the workflow. So we have a particular workflow for certain treatments. For example, Harry today might [00:35:45] be seeing one of my clients for what we call phase one dentistry, which is restorative [00:35:50] dentistry. Um, getting that mouth stable for that client. And it might be that he needs to take a 3D [00:35:55] scan at the end of that, so we can upload that to the next phase of the process, which might be [00:36:00] clear aligners, or it might be ortho, or it might be, um, implant planning with the Cbct or [00:36:05] whatever else it is, but who’s.

Payman Langroudi: Filling all that stuff.

Zak Kara: Out? So in the treatment room that gets filled in at the end of the day. But if you don’t [00:36:10] instil that in the team at the beginning of the day through the ten minute meeting. Yeah, why on earth would they think to do it? Yeah. [00:36:15] Right. So they need to know they circle that or they, they put a highlighter around it to go, I’ve got to do this at the end of this [00:36:20] treatment. And that matters because the notes will have been written up when that appointment was created [00:36:25] or when, let’s say I’m listening in ten minute meeting I go, oh, Harry, quick one for Craig. You’re seeing him this [00:36:30] morning. Can you do a da da da da. And he jots it down. There’s also a couple of other columns on there. Like for example, [00:36:35] are we going to request a Google review? Are we going to do something the following day a kindness call. [00:36:40] And that ten minute meeting becomes your that day schedule becomes your sacred, um, [00:36:45] your document that you take with you through your day and you hand it over to front [00:36:50] of house when you finish your day. So as a clinician, you’ve got to go to place. That [00:36:55] is essentially the crux of this ten minute meeting. It’s basically it’s a bit like a maitre d [00:37:00] in a decent restaurant. Talk me through what’s happening today. But before then, it’s even subtle things that we’ve [00:37:05] added on to that flow. Like, for example, who’s in today? In which treatment rooms? Oh, Sarah, one of our dentists [00:37:10] is starting at 2 p.m.

Zak Kara: she’s in 2 to 8 today, so the team need to know don’t shut down treatment [00:37:15] room three, because Sarah’s coming in and she’s working with Esther. And they’re going to start at two, 230 [00:37:20] and so on. So even we’ve found all those, you know, those niggly, niggly things [00:37:25] every day that just piss you off. Somebody couldn’t even be bothered to plan ahead for [00:37:30] the day to keep my treatment room open. And now we’re running late all afternoon. It’s just solid teamwork. [00:37:35] Yeah, so they need to know about it in the ten minute meeting, right? The next thing it [00:37:40] might be who’s joining us as a visitor, we increasingly have clinicians from all sorts of [00:37:45] places, shadow and shadow us and spend time in the clinic. So this is Tom. He’s going to be spending the day with us. And I might say, [00:37:50] oh, Tom’s a dentist from a very good dentist in his own right from over in Cornwall. Welcome, Tom. He’s going to be with us [00:37:55] till what time? 6:00. Okay, cool. So everyone knows Tom, right? That couldn’t be weirder for Tom if he’s [00:38:00] not introduced. Right. He’s just sitting there like a lemon. And then we talk through the clients on the day schedule. That might take [00:38:05] six, seven minutes. And that’s important because it’s the back and forth between two different clinicians and [00:38:10] so on.

Payman Langroudi: But outside of outside of the sort of the I don’t mean to belittle the [00:38:15] obvious. Yeah, yeah. Do you do you go into oh so and so’s finishing treatment and she [00:38:20] likes this sort of chocolates and surprise and delight whatever.

Zak Kara: Yeah. [00:38:25] It’s not necessarily the surprise and delight. Oh let’s do, let’s get out whatever it is. But it is, it is. [00:38:30] There’s an element of that for sure. And for definite we bring up, for example, I might mention Kay, [00:38:35] one of our clients, oh, she’s just had a baby, by the way. She might not be feeling the the best that she’s literally come in [00:38:40] a week after her baby boy was born. Oh by the way, she sent a picture. Like, how weird or [00:38:45] awkward would it be for Kay, who went to the trouble? Because we are talking to her on WhatsApp [00:38:50] all day, every day. Our front of house crew arranging the right appointment at the right time, and she sent a picture of her newborn [00:38:55] baby over. If the clinical treatment room didn’t get that information, Kay is going to be feeling really awkward. [00:39:00] She’s gone to the trouble of keeping our relationship, and that relationship matters, that everyone on the team [00:39:05] is on board with that because we’re. So congratulations. What’s his name by the way? Not [00:39:10] you know, oh yeah. You had a baby. Didn’t you know we already knew in advance because [00:39:15] that that’s the synchronicity that matters. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So so [00:39:20] I do expect after this degree of care, stuff goes [00:39:25] smoothly in general. In general. Yeah, of course there’s always going to be something, right? [00:39:30] Stuff goes smoothly. But more important than that, people feel special. Yeah, right. [00:39:35] And so people who feel special tend to tell other people. Yeah. And so have you sort of [00:39:40] keep do you keep a count on word of mouth referral or forget account. Can you [00:39:45] tell me sort of hand on heart, that word of mouth referral in our practice is just way up. Because of this. [00:39:50]

Zak Kara: We do we, um, we log through our CRM, [00:39:55] um, software that we, we have and we have different channels, which we use Pipedrive [00:40:00] just because we always have um, and it’s quite business to business orientated, [00:40:05] but there are lots of things that we’ve adapted and manipulated and customised and stuff. Um, so we [00:40:10] have different inbound leads, um, different workflows for general dentistry, for teeth straightening, for [00:40:15] implants, for whatever. And we believe they are the kind of core foundations, [00:40:20] um, from which people tend to search for dentistry. So the key [00:40:25] ones tend to be, um, I no longer want my teeth to keep breaking out of the blue. And [00:40:30] that, by the way, matters not I just want a dentist near to me. So slight curveball [00:40:35] again. Uh, might sound weird, but we don’t offer emergency dentistry for somebody in pain, [00:40:40] not for a new client. Wow. Because we’ve found over the years that it’s very difficult [00:40:45] to get somebody on board and keep them on board. And percentage wise, you’ll lose that battle more [00:40:50] often than you win that battle. And we don’t want to be the go to place where you phone up in the next emergency. [00:40:55] So our approach to it is.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, explain that to me. Why is it why is it hard to [00:41:00] to make that person stick? Okay, because he didn’t come looking for you. He came looking for pain relief.

Zak Kara: Came, came. [00:41:05] Yeah. Sounds controversial, but when we looked at the statistics prior to Covid, you see [00:41:10] those types of scenarios. And fair enough, it was a different environment then. Uh, the [00:41:15] client lounge looked different. It smelled different, different location and stuff. But we found more often than not, [00:41:20] those people coming in, even though you felt like you’d been the saint who looked after them in an [00:41:25] affordable way, we solved their issue. Oh my God, Zach and the team are so amazing here, blah blah blah. More [00:41:30] often than not, they don’t come back. Wow. And so interestingly, what an insight. Well, interestingly [00:41:35] that because most people build their whole clinic and their brand on the basis of I can help people, [00:41:40] right. But what we found is the flip side of it, if you become the busy restaurant and you have a busy restaurant [00:41:45] philosophy behind this, you actually if you really want to do comprehensive dentistry every day, what we actually [00:41:50] do is we let them go and have dentistry done elsewhere. And then we go, [00:41:55] oh, so we’re so glad you found us from your friend, whoever it is. And yes, [00:42:00] we do track word of mouth. And it isn’t, by the way, the biggest inbound percentage of our of our new [00:42:05] prospective clients. And but we still want to keep that relationship because we wouldn’t want [00:42:10] to harm our relationship with their friend who’s recommended us. Right. So we tend to say something along the lines of, [00:42:15] so sorry to say, the next availability in our schedule is around about a week and a half away. All [00:42:20] of our clients who come and see us tend to see us because they’ve planned ahead proactively. And we [00:42:25] have. We offer comprehensive dentistry here, so feel free to call NHS 111. They may be able to solve [00:42:30] your immediate pain.

Zak Kara: Let’s get you out of that issue and then come back and speak to us, or I’ll happily follow [00:42:35] up with you in a couple of days, if you like, and see how you’re doing, because then it demonstrates [00:42:40] that level of care in the same way it demonstrates that we are bothered about them as a human being, and [00:42:45] then we offer them the complete new client, new patient experience when they’re [00:42:50] in a headspace that they’re ready to receive it. And they walk in the door through this process again. [00:42:55] Again, slight curveball, but our process pay for general dentistry is a [00:43:00] bit backwards. We only packages and new client visit into a health [00:43:05] check and a hygiene visit, but we do the hygiene visit first. What? The [00:43:10] reason why is because we find that when you have a hygiene visit first, it [00:43:15] it’s kind of insistent on we do preventative proactive dentistry [00:43:20] here. It also gives them what I find works so well, which is [00:43:25] in order to get somebody to make a decision, you kind of have to breadcrumb it. So our hygienists [00:43:30] are brilliant and they 3D scan every new client and patient at the very beginning [00:43:35] of their first hygiene visit, prior to the prior to which, prior to this time, they’ve not even [00:43:40] seen a dentist in the team, but they have taken a three shaped scan. It’s [00:43:45] free. You don’t even pay for the scan sleeve. Take a 3D scan and they show off the tech at [00:43:50] the end of that visit, which works brilliantly because it gives that person an insight into what’s [00:43:55] really going on. Because we know, don’t we? In dentistry, you can see all these 15 things going wrong [00:44:00] and they’ve got no clue because they’ve got no pain.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I mean I think you one underestimates [00:44:05] the difference that that might make here because we’re so in it the wood for the trees or whatever. [00:44:10] Yeah. But if you put yourself in the patient’s position, particularly if you’ve never had a [00:44:15] scan, which most people haven’t these days yet. Yet. Yeah. And you’re seen by this [00:44:20] other person who’s not the dentist who’s taking care, taking a scan. So it’s a whole different experience, isn’t [00:44:25] it? Yeah. A whole different thing.

Zak Kara: Is, you know, you we often find that new patient visits [00:44:30] for a dentist tend to be a bit of a loss leader. Let’s face it, you can actually carve out the ideal [00:44:35] path for them after that first visit. And they’ve gone home and probably had time to [00:44:40] do a little bit of grieving. That’s a strong word, but we use that word within our team [00:44:45] because our team know that they need the opportunity. If there’s some relatively bad news i.e. my teeth aren’t quite [00:44:50] as good as I thought, and there were some brown bits and some black bits and whatever. By the way, our hygienists and therapists aren’t [00:44:55] tasked to diagnose, but they are tasked to give them [00:45:00] a guided tour, show them the colours, and they don’t even say what they see themselves. [00:45:05] They kind of go, what do you see out of interest? And what they’re doing there is that’s the true [00:45:10] meaning of Co diagnosis. It’s become quite trendy to say co diagnosis. Yeah true co [00:45:15] diagnosis is nobody ever believes or trusts new information [00:45:20] particularly not in health care in a relatively mistrusted space like dentistry. [00:45:25] Yeah until they believe they’ve come up with the answers themselves. So what I do, which is maybe a little [00:45:30] bit sneaky, is that if I’m giving someone a guided tour of their 3D scan, their three shaped scan on the screen, right, I’ll [00:45:35] move it around.

Zak Kara: Here’s you on the right. Here’s you on the left. Let me show the the arch of the teeth. This is [00:45:40] really the view that most dentists look at. And I’ll show them the occlusal view. And I’ll zoom in a little bit and [00:45:45] I’ll go, do you know what? I can see so many different things because I do this all day, every day. [00:45:50] Why don’t I actually pause and let you tell me what you what do you see? I do that intentionally [00:45:55] because it gives them the opportunity to tell me the colours. What do you see? Some of them [00:46:00] will go, I don’t know, dentist. You tell me and they dither and [00:46:05] I might prompt them gently. What colour do you see? Is it this yellow bit here or. Oh, this bit here. [00:46:10] Yeah. That’s the back of that tooth. That’s a bit kind of weird with my tongue, isn’t it? Why do you think that might [00:46:15] be? And that’s letting them walk this slow and steady journey. And if our hygienists [00:46:20] and therapists are doing that at the first, we call that the pre um pre new client [00:46:25] visit hygiene visit, um that first step in the journey. And [00:46:30] they will offer the opportunity for them to go home and think about it.

Zak Kara: Because by the time [00:46:35] they then come back and see a dentist they’ve been offered the correct length of visit. That’s the other thing [00:46:40] I find golden with this. Some of our, uh, in previous clinics, when I was trying to do a new client, [00:46:45] new patient visit, it wouldn’t be long enough. Yeah, well, you’ve only got yourself to blame [00:46:50] if you’ve seen their mouth and you’ve got an idea of their. Temperament because Tasha or Camilla or [00:46:55] whomever in our team has already told me and by the way, also offers the opportunity [00:47:00] to gently but tactfully ask somebody to find a different clinic. That [00:47:05] does happen once in a while. Yeah, yeah, once in a while, because Tasha will go. I couldn’t even lay a bat [00:47:10] beyond 20 degrees. You ain’t treating her. Mhm. And I’ll go okay. Cool. How do we how do we [00:47:15] not spot that already. And she’s going it’s all right. At least I only burned you know 30 minutes 40 minutes. Hygiene visit. [00:47:20] Don’t bother getting into a spiral of a mess. When they then come into the dental treatment room. Then [00:47:25] you have to you’re compelled to give them a diagnosis. Then you’ve got a duty of care. That’s a problem. [00:47:30] So what we actually do is we use some tech. We use do you guys lose use loom. Sure.

Zak Kara: So do you use [00:47:35] a loom video all day, every day. It’s literally show them the three shapes scan on the screen. There’s my my picture of my face [00:47:40] my video. And I’m talking to them. And I’ll give them five minutes free of my time. And I’ll send that through our care [00:47:45] coordinators. And I’ll ask them in that video. Given the nature of this, this and this, and [00:47:50] I’m sorry to say, because of the layout of our treatment rooms and because of our problems [00:47:55] with posture and position, what we find is that actually you will need some treatment to be done and [00:48:00] you’ll better, better looked after by a clinic that’s best set up to do that. I’m sorry to say that can’t be our clinic. [00:48:05] So what we’re doing is asking them to go somewhere else. I don’t care where they go, I do, but, you know, I don’t, um, [00:48:10] I don’t specify, you know, like old school dentists used to go send them to your worst enemy kind of thing. I don’t really care who they [00:48:15] go and see, but it won’t be us. Because I won’t just do that thing that most principals do, which is. Oh, well, [00:48:20] at least it’s money. Let’s bring him in. Let the associates deal with them. That’s again, a recipe for the whole [00:48:25] team’s disaster.

Payman Langroudi: I’m really interested in this grieving period. It’s very interesting [00:48:30] idea that they almost they’ve almost marinated in the problem. [00:48:35] There you go. For a week or two or however long it is before then seeing you [00:48:40] and you confirming and the words, I mean, it must be that when you say when you say, [00:48:45] what do you see? And he’ll say, I see a crumpled up tooth or whatever. [00:48:50] Then when you say, oh, you know, you’re crumpled, there you go. There’s a, there’s active listening. This is well, [00:48:55] there’s just, there’s, there’s a, there’s a feeling of the guys really listening. But you know, active [00:49:00] listening is, is wonderful to understand. Right. But to tell someone that [00:49:05] I’m, I’m actively listening to you is a wonderful thing. If that’s trust, isn’t it.

Zak Kara: That’s more powerful [00:49:10] when you then put it in words on a screen. So for example, um, if not through this pathway, but [00:49:15] if you came to see us for, let’s say, more cosmetically focussed dentistry, that’s again a two stage process. There’s no hygiene visit [00:49:20] involved at the beginning, but we do the information gathering first. We tell people in advance [00:49:25] so they don’t come into the building confused or feeling like they’ve been ripped off in some way, [00:49:30] that they don’t get an answer by the end of that first visit. But we do a separate follow up consultation, which is [00:49:35] on zoom generally and virtual because we don’t want to burn chair time on it. But behind the scenes between [00:49:40] that, our team have put together a comprehensively focussed treatment plan, and that isn’t what most old school specialists [00:49:45] used to do, which is write a blinking letter. No one reads the letter. No one cares, nobody cares. [00:49:50] But if you bothered to put it into pictures and by the way, our team create [00:49:55] that, we believe we’ve created a really neat. We would say this, wouldn’t we? But genuinely, [00:50:00] I don’t see any other clinic that have done this. And if you want to know more, feel free to hit me on Instagram or whatever. [00:50:05] And I’m happy to share. But our process there is that we put it into [00:50:10] pictures, animations, diagrams that are relevant to them and walk them through it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:50:15] look the process of every time you mention something. What’s firing [00:50:20] off in my head is, well, that’s another process that that’s going to have to, you know, okay, [00:50:25] the hygienist sees the patient gets all this info. Now that info is got to get to [00:50:30] you. Yeah. And you know, each one of these processes. Right. And as you said [00:50:35] the simplification part that you’re you and Gareth are going to focus on this year. But [00:50:40] how long would you say it would take if I was going to come and shadow you guys? How [00:50:45] many weeks or how many days would I have to be there before I get it and understand what’s going on? [00:50:50]

Zak Kara: Do you know, this is one of the reasons why we recognise in order to be able to create a clinic, which is not just contingent [00:50:55] on Gareth and Zach. Yeah, we have to be able to create something that’s neat, succinct, [00:51:00] but actually achievable by most dentists, most clinicians, most non-clinical [00:51:05] team members because it will take us two months to onboard a new non-clinical team member pay, which is mental. It’s absolutely [00:51:10] mental and it’s costly. And and actually, in a weird way, it [00:51:15] it’s almost counterintuitive.

Payman Langroudi: It depends on what makes you happy. Right? [00:51:20] I’ve asked this question of so many dentists. Right. What’s the usually [00:51:25] the last question. But let’s go there. What’s what’s what’s in the future for you now if in the future [00:51:30] there is a 30 practice plan. Yeah, 130 practice plan [00:51:35] or a three practice plan. Yeah. Or you know, I keep on bringing [00:51:40] it up, but, you know, Robbie, he was telling me, um, one practice in every capital city in the world. Yeah. Okay. [00:51:45] Plan. Yeah. Um, or, you know, so [00:51:50] many of us. The one perfect practice. One one. And we know it’s never going to be perfect, right? But [00:51:55] one place. Yeah, yeah. One place where, you know, you’re [00:52:00] going to trying to get as close to perfect as possible. What comes to mind? What [00:52:05] are you thinking?

Zak Kara: I don’t know. Do you know how long has it been?

Payman Langroudi: How long is.

Zak Kara: This masterpiece has been alive [00:52:10] for nearly three years. Is that all 2021 only? Yeah, just after Covid. So we’re in [00:52:15] so early, you know. Yeah, I, Gareth and I say this to each other all day, every day. If we’re having fun, we [00:52:20] carry on. That’s all that our nose has followed over these last few years. And we’ve done some slightly wacky things. [00:52:25] And if there’s going to be one thing I’ve definitely learned in hindsight is take advice from others who have walked [00:52:30] your path sooner. Um, we didn’t not take that path because of ego reasons, [00:52:35] but coaching has been so valuable for us even to be able to structure our day [00:52:40] to day, our week to week. Because in a weird way, like you said, you can’t see the wood from the trees. And I’m a bit of a numbers [00:52:45] guy, and I like the tech and I like the details, and I create huge spreadsheets. Right. So we’ve been working [00:52:50] very closely with a lovely guy called Mike Hesketh, recommend his services, but not if he gets into In [00:52:55] Demand that he gives us a worse service. But Mike is a coach. He’s also a very successful [00:53:00] business owner and clinic owner of his own right.

Zak Kara: And he used to be in the commandos in [00:53:05] the military. So that’s his roots. And he taught us over these only last few months we’ve been working together [00:53:10] that the details matter in some things. So we never used to even have a daily [00:53:15] cash flow spreadsheet. And I used to think things like that were overkill in terms of information. But you do need [00:53:20] to know where your money is going on a day to day basis, to forecast ahead that you don’t ever get to those peaks [00:53:25] and troughs, and one of those troughs that takes you close to zero in the bank, and then you shit your pants, right? [00:53:30] Yeah. Because you need to be able to feed your families, because that’s the whole purpose of having a clinic in the first place. [00:53:35] If you can’t even take your fair share and your percentage as a principle dentist is [00:53:40] nowhere near literally not even a quarter, some months of what I would have taken as an associate. [00:53:45] But you do need structure in your life. I’ve gone off on a tangent. I [00:53:50] forgot what you asked me. What did you ask? Um. [00:53:55]

Payman Langroudi: Well, we were. Well, we were talking about processes, right? Processes. How long it takes to learn.

Zak Kara: So [00:54:00] when dentists come and spend us, spend time with us in the team, we’ve realised that we need to simplify [00:54:05] this into something. But typically it takes about two or 3 or 4 months [00:54:10] of soaking it up. And what we have learned over the years through Harry, amazing dentists in our [00:54:15] team, um, and Sarah, relatively new dentist in our team. We almost need to create this as a [00:54:20] mentorship program. So what we did with Sarah is we salaried her for the first four months, and there was a [00:54:25] set agreed a number of days she’d spend in and around the team because a big part of this is onboarding [00:54:30] with an associate, for an associate whom the team need to like. [00:54:35] There’s no better advocate than the team themselves for that [00:54:40] particular clinician. So you can’t just start and let them fail for the first six [00:54:45] months. Look at their numbers, look at their outcomes, and go, well, that’s crap. There needs to be [00:54:50] a pathway, and you need to create a nurturing environment where they start to realise, oh [00:54:55] crap, actually, I need to learn how to talk like these guys do. Okay, I need to learn some of the processes. What’s [00:55:00] this Pipedrive thing anyway? And all that kind of thing. And it’s literally taken Sarah about four [00:55:05] months and you know, she’s now in the team about, I don’t know, seven months, eight months or something. And she’s flying because she gets [00:55:10] it. And all that groundwork has been done. But most principal dentists, most clinics don’t really [00:55:15] see the wood from the trees in the sense they can’t recognise the value of that.

Zak Kara: Again, it’s costly. You know, a flat rate for [00:55:20] a dentist on on the basis of mentorship is basically paying them to come into the team, which is mental [00:55:25] because as an associate, in some practices, maybe not. You know, I don’t want to blow smoke up our own [00:55:30] asses, but maybe not in our clinic, but in clinics that I’ve shadowed, I would have paid to go and spend [00:55:35] time with them. Yeah. So it’s the other way around. However we’re paying and funding Sarah’s or [00:55:40] did fund Sarah’s life for no clinical outcome whatsoever, purely on the basis that we [00:55:45] saw something in her. And I believe we’ve created something that is so unique, which I actually [00:55:50] would have loved to work in. I do do genuinely mean that as an associate dentist, so [00:55:55] much so sometimes to our own detriment on a personal level, because I think to myself, it’s not the bloody same [00:56:00] as a principal created this amazing clinical environment. We’ve got the best handpieces wicked chairs, [00:56:05] A-dec 500 tellies on the ceiling, the full shebang. Clinical team most [00:56:10] days, more nurses than we need, not less. No trainees take six months to onboard [00:56:15] a dental nurse to be completely independent. Well, certainly in all facets, including implant sedation and all [00:56:20] that. But it literally takes so long to create this amazing machinery that [00:56:25] sometimes you can’t feel the full benefit as a principal.

Zak Kara: Because. Because [00:56:30] as an associate, I aspire to have all those things. Yeah. But on the flip side of it, as a as [00:56:35] a principal, I don’t sit there for four days a week as a, as a clinician. And I [00:56:40] also have all the other pressures of, for example, less so now because the management aspects of [00:56:45] things are more neat and they’re better delegated and stuff like that. But, um, you [00:56:50] know, you still get the flack as the big bad boss, as a principal, you know, you will always be [00:56:55] the person who I did used to think that we had some sort of Goldilocks scenario. [00:57:00] We were about maybe 12, 14, 16 of us as a team at that point. And I [00:57:05] think we I thought we’d created that little beautiful little moment where it was like having a flat [00:57:10] hierarchy and everyone got on great guns with each other, and we all socialised with each [00:57:15] other. And they were. Gareth and Zach weren’t seen as the big bad bosses, but as soon as you went beyond that [00:57:20] to 20 to now, I think 24, 25 of us, something like that, there’s [00:57:25] only so much you can do and I do really. It’s painful sometimes because I do. I would love to have a chat [00:57:30] with most of our team every day. I literally have not got the minutes to even sit on the loo myself [00:57:35] sometimes. How am I going to be everything to everyone? And I’ve learned you can’t [00:57:40] know.

Payman Langroudi: But there are. I know what you mean. There are. There are moments, I think back at moments in enlightened [00:57:45] where it felt that way, um, tends to be smaller, smaller teams [00:57:50] where that can be the case. And, you know, as an associate, [00:57:55] you kind of it’s such so easy to be like, happy with, with your nurse. [00:58:00] And, you know, because we’re all in, we’re all in it together. It’s just a lot, a lot of fun. Yeah.

Zak Kara: Close the door. [00:58:05] And God knows what else happens out there. At least we’ve got. Yeah. You know, we create our little sanctuary.

Payman Langroudi: I remember as an [00:58:10] associate being very much working for the practice personally, I, you know, if someone said something [00:58:15] bad about the boss, I would sort of say, look good on you. You don’t you don’t realise what you know.

Zak Kara: What [00:58:20] happens behind the scenes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Always, always trying to protect the boss as [00:58:25] an associate. But but it’s a very easy thing to do as an associate. Yeah. You become a boss [00:58:30] and there’s things like fairness. Yeah. Which is interesting. [00:58:35] You know, it should be. Be fair. Of course we should be fair. Right. Um, but but then, you know, I [00:58:40] find for me, it’s a tiny business, right? We have 54 people, right? It’s a tiny, tiny business.

Zak Kara: Compared [00:58:45] to.

Payman Langroudi: Most. No, no, but. Any business, right? Let’s say so-and-so comes up to me and says, can [00:58:50] I do X, which is a bit outside of the norm? Yeah, I’m going to say sure. Yeah. Because [00:58:55] we’re so small. Yeah. It’s one of the very few benefits of being small. Move.

Zak Kara: And you can shake. You [00:59:00] can.

Payman Langroudi: Move. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My partner, who just met Sam, he didn’t quite meet him. He’s quite the opposite. [00:59:05] He’s like, well if you do that, that’s unfair isn’t it. Because that person’s had that now. And now what [00:59:10] you have to think is what if everyone wants that? Yeah. Yeah. And he’s right in his own little way. Of course he’s [00:59:15] right.

Zak Kara: Equal opportunities for everyone. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so suddenly something that should be very [00:59:20] simple and, and you know, not, not a big deal can become a really big deal. And then you get [00:59:25] to pay.

Zak Kara: Gets everything in question. I was just about to mention pay. Do you have a set hierarchy and structure [00:59:30] for nurses for example first year into the company as a trainee you paid this, then this, then this and [00:59:35] structure can help. But equally we haven’t ever done it that way. In truth, because everyone’s more valuable [00:59:40] than others, because some are more valuable than others, because that’s the nature of human beings. And also [00:59:45] it’s a timing thing. Some got lucky and joined us at a time when we were desperate for nurses, and we’d have paid anything [00:59:50] post-Covid. The world has changed a lot in terms of, but I.

Payman Langroudi: Really struggle with the meritocracy. [00:59:55] Question. Yeah, someone joined you four years ago. Someone joined you two years ago. The [01:00:00] one who joined you two years ago is better. What do you do? What do you do?

Zak Kara: Our approach to [01:00:05] it is that we pay based on merit. We we kind of go, okay, you’re the [01:00:10] the the skill that you cannot teach well is approachability, um, [01:00:15] human skills, willingness. And I recognise it even in interviews, [01:00:20] even the first conversation, if I’m using the word client and a dental nurse who [01:00:25] is maybe five years into their career believes that they know the right way to do it, and they keep bouncing back with patient. [01:00:30] I’m thinking this is going to be a hard person to teach, and I can spot some of those early warning signs quite soon. [01:00:35] Now. Now we’ve done enough interviews, Gareth and I, that we can kind of bounce off each other and navigate the path. [01:00:40] And sometimes people, you can just hear it in their voice. Voice, oh my goodness, they’re going to be amazing. They’re going to fly. [01:00:45] And yeah I don’t know. Is it the wrong thing? Page I’ve [01:00:50] got to lots of points in our journey so far. Very short journey. Only three years where I’ve just thought, no, [01:00:55] I’m just going to do what I trust my gut with. And my gut feeling is telling me this person’s worth. The [01:01:00] top end of our pay banding in our in the in the job spec. Yeah, [01:01:05] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but so listen I expect there’s some sort of pathway. [01:01:10] I mean it’s very early days, but I expect a junior nurse joins. Yeah. And [01:01:15] then it’s almost like a promoted promotion to a more senior nurse. And then maybe a practice [01:01:20] manager or in charge of this implant.

Zak Kara: Nurse and more skilled nursing. Yeah. So yeah, what.

Payman Langroudi: I’m saying is [01:01:25] there’s an expectation that that’s to do with how long you’ve been there as opposed to [01:01:30] meritocracy. And I’ve talked to other practices, other principals, and they [01:01:35] say, oh yeah, I promoted this person sooner and it got everyone else annoyed. [01:01:40]

Zak Kara: Yeah. Well, yeah, we’ve encountered those moments that we don’t very well in honesty. [01:01:45] And it’s hard in a small team. It’s very difficult. Yeah. You’re not actually taught any of these skills of how to [01:01:50] navigate the. Because every person a little bit like clients or patients when they come to see you can only [01:01:55] see their experience through their own eyes and their own personal journey. So each one of those team members, [01:02:00] you kind of need to keep your eyes on their eyes and what they’ve seen and who [01:02:05] joined after them and what position they’re in. And and it’s very hard in your timeline of your growth [01:02:10] as a company to keep your eyes on every perspective all at once. And so, in truth, [01:02:15] we have done it based on merit and based on need demand at the time. For example, you take on a [01:02:20] new associate dentist. One of the things we’ve never nailed down is how you choose [01:02:25] to make the right moves at the right time, because, for example, we’re gearing [01:02:30] up to the next level at this point, and we’ve taken on a new care coordinator and a front of House crew member. We’re [01:02:35] probably slightly overstaffed on a non-clinical basis, but we also know the numbers, and we know that our inbound [01:02:40] traffic of new prospective clients is huge, and we cannot sustain [01:02:45] that number without burning out our existing team at the moment. And so as a result of that, [01:02:50] we’ve got to take it to the next level.

Zak Kara: We’re going to go right, okay. If we can have more potential new clients at this [01:02:55] point, what’s the lag period until we need to then have [01:03:00] the next clinician ready to go? So for example, it might be a two month lag [01:03:05] to then have an associate ready or three month lag or whatever it is. And again, there’s no [01:03:10] rule book for this. And this is the thing we literally tell our team this. Sorry to say, guys, we are not reading some sort of [01:03:15] textbook of small stories. This is how you create this. This is we can only go by advice and [01:03:20] you can only go by others experiences, and you kind of need to take risks. And that’s kind of the things that excite [01:03:25] us as business owners, isn’t it? Um, and yeah, we’ll get burned once or twice. We’ve been burned once or twice. [01:03:30] We’ve, uh, we have to human beings and team members in our team who [01:03:35] sang the story through their journey. And we’ve recognised their skill set isn’t quite what [01:03:40] they first purported it to be. How do you handle that? Well, associates, you [01:03:45] mean? No. Not necessarily. More often than not, non-clinical team members. Um, but you often, [01:03:50] if you’re really listening, uh, and are caring, understanding person, [01:03:55] you go, but what is their skill? Let’s not judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, [01:04:00] right? Yeah.

Zak Kara: What does the fish do? And oh my God, she’s amazing with computers and numbers. And [01:04:05] she can do this in five seconds flat. All right. Cool. Let’s steer the ship a bit this way, and then [01:04:10] hopefully we look back in three, five, ten years time and go, that was really good that we made something cool there. [01:04:15] Do we aspire to do we aspire to have three 3130? No. [01:04:20] When I see not even three, perhaps, [01:04:25] perhaps, um, I don’t aspire to the international thing in honesty. [01:04:30] Uh, you see dentists around the world who are setting up their Miami clinic and their Dubai clinic and this and that. No, that’s not me. [01:04:35] Um, I’m just, uh, the thing that I’ve always struggled with is when you start something, establish something [01:04:40] new, it would rely, I believe, too much on me as a human being [01:04:45] to set our stall out, to provide that kind of dentistry without [01:04:50] doing the shortcut thing. And my heart is in comprehensively minded [01:04:55] dentistry done the right way. And it’s too easy to set up a system and go, yeah, that’s what we believe in. We’ve [01:05:00] copy pasted small stories into a new location. Would it really be done to the nth degree [01:05:05] of detail, the way that we would created it the first time around? Would it could be, could be, could be. I need [01:05:10] your help them because look, I don’t know for sure.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know for sure. Because, you know, it’s difficult to say that [01:05:15] because, you know, I haven’t been there, you know, and, you know, if I visit and you show me something and I go, [01:05:20] God, that’s so difficult to replicate or to teach or something. But at the same time, [01:05:25] you do have to acknowledge, right, that I went to the what was it, the, um, [01:05:30] uh, the hotel like in [01:05:35] four seasons? Four seasons? Yeah. In Marrakesh. Okay. I just [01:05:40] stay there. I went for a coffee. Yeah, but, you know, it was.

Zak Kara: Was it pretty sure it was. [01:05:45]

Payman Langroudi: A Four Seasons?

Zak Kara: Yeah. It was, it was, it was. It’s what you get in the US.

Payman Langroudi: It was a Marrakesh version [01:05:50] of the Four Seasons. But it was a four seasons feeling. Yeah. And if [01:05:55] I, you know as well as I, if I, if I walk into Mumbai Louis Vuitton shop.

Zak Kara: Yeah they’ll be the same [01:06:00] experience. Is it the same in dentistry. In, in healthcare. Well well well well yeah that’s the quirk [01:06:05] isn’t it. So the question.

Payman Langroudi: You I mean, are you saying that doctor APA’s clinic in Miami isn’t as [01:06:10] good as doctor APA’s clinic in Dubai?

Zak Kara: Are they getting doctor APA. Sorry, are they [01:06:15] getting doctor APA every time, or are they getting the iteration of which will always be kind of APA [01:06:20] and kind of not? Does it matter? Again, that’s another question that’s a bit more of a philosophical, philosophical [01:06:25] thing that we haven’t probably squared the circle with yet. We’re, you know, I’ll join you on the pod in another three [01:06:30] years and I’ll tell you where we went. Um, because, uh, yeah, I don’t think there’s any rule book of [01:06:35] life. And my feeling. My feeling. Sorry to interrupt.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry to interrupt you, but my feeling on it is. Yeah. You’re the kind of cat [01:06:40] that if you’ve managed to do what you’ve managed to do in the last three years. Yeah, you’re the kind of cat who can [01:06:45] pull this off in more than one location. Yeah, there’s many people who can’t. [01:06:50] But personally, I’m the kind of guy who can’t. Yeah, that’s not what I could do. My my partner [01:06:55] Sanjay upstairs. He’s he’s the he’s the kind of cat who could systems people understands. You’re [01:07:00] the kind of cat who could pull it off. The question is, can you be bothered? Yeah.

Zak Kara: It’s important. [01:07:05] That’s an important question, man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because look, if you can go on three holidays [01:07:10] and skiing and put your kids in private school and, and feed your parents or whatever [01:07:15] is important to you. Yeah, yeah. Why should you build empires if that’s [01:07:20] what’s important to you? You know, that’s an important thing. There’s the other side of it. That and [01:07:25] I, and I like this idea of you should live up to your potential. [01:07:30] Yeah, yeah. And that’s what I’m kind of saying.

Zak Kara: Well, you know, moments like this and [01:07:35] even sitting here talking to you on, on your pod at the moment and, um, and when you reflect and you [01:07:40] have feedback from others and one of the reasons why I did the stuff on Instagram, which is a lot of people now commenting on [01:07:45] and I really appreciate, um, Zach, small stories on Insta, by the way, if you’re listening to this, um, is kind [01:07:50] of to exude a little bit more about what I’m really about and what really does drive me on a daily basis. [01:07:55] And then when you get feedback, you kind of go, actually, geez, again, you can’t see the wood from the trees there. There’s [01:08:00] a lot more that’s different than what we do compared to what some even can even comprehend or can even [01:08:05] conjure up in their own, in their own, you know, let alone apply it to their own working world. But come up with the idea in [01:08:10] the first place. Um, do I think that, um, uh, am [01:08:15] I now finally at the other end of that kind of growing something from being the toddler phase into an [01:08:20] established organisation now? Yeah, there’s been three years when since Covid and since [01:08:25] beginning Small Stories, when I wasn’t really Zach, the thing that a lot of people [01:08:30] don’t recognise is that you become a different person. And if you’re of our kind [01:08:35] of approach to life and you bunker down and you really have to spend the hours sweating in the office [01:08:40] and you put in all the late nights and you don’t see your niece and nephew and you don’t see your extended family [01:08:45] the last time. So my parents was nearly a year ago.

Zak Kara: They’re not that far away. They’re in Leicester, but it’s still a solid [01:08:50] journey from Bournemouth. Right. But you know when you see when you kind of look at the whole picture of your life, you’re like, [01:08:55] was it worth it? I think I’m only just. And this is a word of warning to anybody who’s starting their own clinic. [01:09:00] Do expect that it will swallow up your life in every single way, in ways you’re not [01:09:05] even thought about, and I do I regret it, no, not now. But there’s been many moments when I went, why [01:09:10] the hell? Like, my income is crap, my lifestyle is crap. I was a stone overweight until [01:09:15] a couple of months ago when I’ve really just gone. I’m going to just shake this up. This isn’t really Zac. This isn’t [01:09:20] the guy that used to be the happy go lucky associate. I’ve evolved into the big bad boss. I don’t want [01:09:25] to be that. Yeah, yeah. And only then when you kind of reflect back and you go, actually, fair enough. [01:09:30] I can think a bit more, bigger picture now. I was in Chicago at midwinter meetings last week, and [01:09:35] it’s finally then when you go, yeah, it’s pretty cool, this dentistry thing, and it’s pretty cool when I share this [01:09:40] stuff. And even American dentists are a lovely lady speaking. I wasn’t speaking, but speaking in [01:09:45] groups. Yeah. Um, you know, at the bar and whatever else. And people are going, hang on a minute, say that again. [01:09:50] And, you know, one of the dentists literally pull out a phone and went, you do what? And she’s making a note for us. I’m like, [01:09:55] okay, well, maybe it is a little bit different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure it is different. And this is what I’m saying. Yeah, [01:10:00] that most, most people wouldn’t have bothered with what you’ve already done. So [01:10:05] that that’s why you could be bothered to keep going. Yeah. Um, although, you know, [01:10:10] you, you say you had a hard time. Dude, I refuse to believe you had a harder time than me.

Zak Kara: Yeah. [01:10:15] Glenn, we.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, lost hundreds of thousands of pounds in the first four [01:10:20] years. Like, the first four years. We just lost money. Just lost loads and loads and loads of money. [01:10:25] Um, to.

Zak Kara: Establish the company, just to set the thing up and get it moving. Fuck it up. [01:10:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: But the real business is take three, four years. Yeah, yeah. In dentistry, we’re very lucky. [01:10:35]

Zak Kara: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Very lucky to be cash flow positive so quick. Yeah. Um, and [01:10:40] and you’re right, it needs to be all encompassing to be a success. It’s like a child. [01:10:45] Yeah. Have you got.

Zak Kara: Kids? No, don’t. It’s just like a child.

Payman Langroudi: It starts as a baby. You have to feed it [01:10:50] and stay up late at night.

Zak Kara: And the bits that that become the reward for me on this journey so [01:10:55] far has been moments when I’ve finally managed to step back a little and observe others [01:11:00] of positions of responsibility in the company, kind of talk new team members [01:11:05] through the small stories way we call it the the nine small stories ways. They were kind of evolved from our our [01:11:10] values and the things that we establish from day one of like the deep, deep rooted recipe [01:11:15] for why we are, why we exist, and those evolved into really practical [01:11:20] things, the nine ways. And when I see new team members talking, talk, uh, being talked through it very professionally, I [01:11:25] kind of go, yeah, it’s kind of got its own life of its own. And that does make me feel excited.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:11:30] yeah, that’s a lovely thing. When you when you, when you think something up one night at 2 a.m.. [01:11:35] Yeah, yeah. And then nine months later there’s people talking about it.

Zak Kara: Yeah. It’s really cool. [01:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Though. Tell me what they are. So you don’t have to go through all mine. So the ones that you love.

Zak Kara: So we walked the entire journey. But [01:11:45] the basic overview of our values, there’s two main things that we say all day, every day, which is that we deliver. [01:11:50] Wow. First time and every time. And number two, our clients come first and they will always be our top [01:11:55] priority. It’s as simple as that. Um, but when you boil it down into the actual journey, for example, the [01:12:00] first of our nine small series ways is that the right clients arrive [01:12:05] at the clinic and they’re pre-vetted and pre, um, we’ve got to know them beforehand. [01:12:10] And any one of them could be our friends, which might sound a bit cringey to some, but we believe [01:12:15] that is the simplest thing. If I’m walking past one of our treatment rooms and there’s laughter, we want to its [01:12:20] working. The next might be, for example, that, um, our, [01:12:25] uh, our team at front of House does, um, a choreograph, [01:12:30] but they’re never, never scripted. And they’ve designed an experience that makes people feel warm [01:12:35] inside and makes them keep coming back and never feel like they need to dress up to visit us. [01:12:40] So there’s things along those lines that are kind of what we’ve boiled down as a team into what [01:12:45] we are as people and what’s the best thing about it. When you’re you look back and you reflect at moments like that that I [01:12:50] was just mentioning, you kind of go, that’s really us, Gareth and I.

Zak Kara: That is us [01:12:55] and our own personalities extrapolated out into an organisation which then [01:13:00] took on a life of its own. But I can genuinely hand on heart, tell myself, yeah, this [01:13:05] is really an extension of me. This is how I believe dentistry should be delivered. [01:13:10] Weirdly enough, talking to coaches, it turns out that a lot of clinics kind of rely [01:13:15] on mouths of their patients and clients not being fully stabilised. For that to be a good [01:13:20] business prospect or proposition for a new future owner. So in a weird kind of way, [01:13:25] sometimes boutique can kind of play against you. If you were to stabilise [01:13:30] the mouths of every single one of our patients, which is what a smile story is all about. It’s a phased and [01:13:35] comprehensive plan, and the aim of the game is somebody joins us as a member, and then they just need to [01:13:40] see us for six monthly or 12 monthly or whatever it is for their consistent, ongoing care. [01:13:45] The. Troublesome thing with that is that we actually haven’t got a lot of work to do for our maintained clients. Is that a bad [01:13:50] thing? In some ways, no. But deep down inside me, ethically [01:13:55] it is. It’s the right thing. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I wasn’t aware of what you said before [01:14:00] or I wasn’t aware that was a thing. Um, but anyway, if you do it right, [01:14:05] the the patients on your. Do you say members.

Zak Kara: Members? Yeah. Our membership [01:14:10] plan. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That that itself. That’s like an annual recurring revenue thing.

Zak Kara: It is it is, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, that you can [01:14:15] sell that as a thing, right? That’s true. Yeah. Um, but, you know, the [01:14:20] story is so impressive that it’s all post-Covid. I mean, to me, like post-Covid [01:14:25] seems like day before yesterday.

Zak Kara: How much of it.

Payman Langroudi: Were you doing as an associate.

Zak Kara: Of [01:14:30] the style of the industry that we’re doing here? Um, so I moved down to Bournemouth for [01:14:35] the unicorn associate gig, the six handed dentistry gig at a clinic not terribly far [01:14:40] away, and learnt the roots of what I kind of boiled down into comprehensive dentistry, the way [01:14:45] we do it about five, four years before Covid, something like that. Um, before [01:14:50] that I believed I was doing really thorough thinking, comprehensive dentistry, but had no real way. [01:14:55] I’d never seen anyone plug it together properly. So somebody comes to see you. How you [01:15:00] can see there’s also to do. You can see there’s possibly, you know, like a bridge or an implant or a prosthesis of some sort [01:15:05] in that lower left area. And oh, but there’s loads of amalgams and stuff to sort out first. And [01:15:10] how do I get this person on side and walk them through a journey that’s palatable for them in [01:15:15] a timely way, that we’re not waiting for a tooth to blow up into a problem or break beyond repair? [01:15:20] What my old school approach used to be and worked alongside a lovely guy called Richard Guyver, [01:15:25] who was the principal at the time of um Envisage in Emsworth down on the south coast [01:15:30] envisaged has now become a little entity, a quite big entity of its own, actually not through Richard, [01:15:35] but by the now owners of that mini corporate and and [01:15:40] what I learned there was that I could plug some of the ways I’d do it into. I was just learning, [01:15:45] really. Somebody came to see me. It was independent dentistry. There was a membership plan, [01:15:50] but essentially it was fee per item, classic thing, 10% or 20% off.

Zak Kara: By joining the membership [01:15:55] plan on X treatment that we’re going to provide for you. And the way I used to do it was I used to win the [01:16:00] relationship by doing 1 or 2 high priority things, getting them on site, [01:16:05] proving to them that the local anaesthetic is going to be painless. As I explained, [01:16:10] proving to them that I’m bothered about the details. And oh, he really took his time on making [01:16:15] sure the bite was correct at the end of the visit. And oh, the dental nurse and him were having such a good time [01:16:20] and having a nice chit chat. And ah, they’re lovely people to create consistency, to win that [01:16:25] relationship, to then play the slow, slow, slow game. The problem being that there’s a lot of times they were the wrong people [01:16:30] because they actually really just were of the mindset of I [01:16:35] just want my tooth fixed, and I kind of want to wait till the next one to break, and I’ll fix that when it’s broken as well. [01:16:40] And funnily enough, I then kind of embarked on a different way of doing it by proactively asking [01:16:45] the question and here’s a here’s a good one if you if you like the power of words in the way that [01:16:50] I do, let’s say you’re doing an old school check-up. We don’t really call it a check-up, we call it a health check, [01:16:55] but, um, or a 3D health check because 3D health check. Yeah. So we do a 3D scan for every [01:17:00] single person every time. So the first thing that happens, it processes on the screen. And we do the walk through because [01:17:05] we’ve then got a record in colour of how their teeth were on that day.

Zak Kara: Right. So [01:17:10] um, the method that um, we in hindsight, uh, could have [01:17:15] approached this with would have been something like this might sound like a bit of a fluffy question. [01:17:20] Can I ask why you’ve come to see us today? And they might go, they might look at [01:17:25] you funny, and my patient or client might look at me funny if I were to ask that question like, why do you think I’m here? I’m here for my check-up. You’re [01:17:30] supposed to come every six months, aren’t you? But I might stick to my guns there and go. But why [01:17:35] a little bit deeper? Yeah. Get a bit. Yeah. Why? What is it about a check-up that bothers bothers [01:17:40] you so much? Or what is it? Is it that your parents kind of instilled that in you as a kid, and you’ve been [01:17:45] doing it ever since? Or what is it about your teeth that are bothering you? Is it you haven’t got any pain at the moment by the sounds of [01:17:50] it. Why are you here? And some of those people will be the kind of people where you [01:17:55] can keep expanding out that conversation and listening actively, and you might embark [01:18:00] on some of the conversations with some of them to sort of go, ah, actually, it sounds [01:18:05] like you would prefer to avoid waiting for other teeth to fall down the same [01:18:10] slippery slope as that one that broke when you were on holiday last summer. So you remind them of that [01:18:15] unforeseen, unexpected breakage or pain or whatever, because it was.

Payman Langroudi: And now you’ve got them into the comprehensive [01:18:20] mindset. There you.

Zak Kara: Go. Because that was more costly and complicated. Am I right in hearing you carefully that you [01:18:25] don’t want to just wait for another jagged edge and you don’t want to wait for another root canal and all the rest of it, and some of them will [01:18:30] go, yeah, and you go, would it help you if I talk you through what I can see? So [01:18:35] I might then show them the cusp that’s very thin on that upper six. And, you know, then you extrapolate [01:18:40] that out into a quadrant based plan or you might go whilst this tooth on the this first molar [01:18:45] here. Is looking like it’s going to break at some point. It could be that some of our clients, [01:18:50] in a scenario like yours, say to me, do you know what, Zach? Over a period of the next year or two, let’s work through [01:18:55] in an order of priority. That makes sense. Let’s do proactive dentistry. If I’m tackling the upper left area. And [01:19:00] the reason why that can work well is, as you’ve experienced with our blue protective shield, call that rubber down, [01:19:05] blue protective shield. It means that we can protect your entire mouth from that upper left area, and [01:19:10] you’re only frozen and numb for one visit. You can kick back, watch the telly on the ceiling, listen to me and Tash [01:19:15] natter on blah di blah di blah. And they go, yeah, that does make sense. And before you know it, you’ve [01:19:20] got a quadrant completed the next visit. So I don’t do single tooth dentistry, not because I railroad [01:19:25] people into not doing single tooth dentistry, but people only find us for that. When you position it through the eyes [01:19:30] of other clients, they go, oh yeah, I can see that makes sense. You know. Do [01:19:35] you think.

Payman Langroudi: Your exposure to Pankey and Coy’s has made you a more interventionist [01:19:40] dentist than the average?

Zak Kara: Yes, but not in American way. And in Pankey, actually, [01:19:45] Pankey is a brilliant organisation, by the way. But I went to Pankey too early in my career. I was their second [01:19:50] year out of uni.

Payman Langroudi: How much of it did you do?

Zak Kara: I did essentials one and two of the four in [01:19:55] the continuum, and I always intended to go back to Pankey, but funnily enough it became part of the patchwork quilt course. [01:20:00] Joined a little bit of that and lots more lectures around the world and all the rest of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: The personal mastery, [01:20:05] the financial mastery stuff. Useful?

Zak Kara: Yeah. Big time. It was the thing that actually got me excited. Pankey [01:20:10] won the first of that week long continuum residency program was gold. [01:20:15] It was opening my eyes to something which actually, in hindsight, has formed the bedrock of [01:20:20] my day to day dentistry and probably influenced my stories more than I realised. And which [01:20:25] is that the interpersonal stuff, and that isn’t just understanding personality types, but the the [01:20:30] interpersonal stuff in the sense of dentistry needs to work [01:20:35] for you as a career. It’s you can be as selfless as you like, [01:20:40] but if you don’t recognise the person in front of you and their real true wishes, [01:20:45] it’s kind of pointless. You know, that gets quite deep and philosophical. But Pankey won. Some [01:20:50] of it was quite philosophical, and it makes you realise what you’re about as a person and why you’re [01:20:55] in dentistry and the communication stuff. And coming back to some of the banned words. One of the banned words [01:21:00] might be surgery. So the Americans call it an office, but we don’t call it a surgery in art. We call them treatment [01:21:05] rooms, because surgery is a word that conjures up images of all sorts of stuff you don’t want. [01:21:10] We don’t use the word late in a treatment room or client facing room. Might [01:21:15] say Zack is a little behind schedule this afternoon because nobody likes lateness.

Zak Kara: It’s a negative [01:21:20] word. We don’t call it a waiting room because nobody likes to wait. What do you call it? We call [01:21:25] it a client lounge or front of house or. Yeah. Um, we we call it a [01:21:30] treatment room, not a surgery. As I mentioned, we we just have different ways of approaching these things. And even [01:21:35] there’s we always believe in keeping everyone part of a three way conversation in a treatment room. So [01:21:40] nurse client, clinician. But sometimes you have to be a little sneaky [01:21:45] with the code that you say. So lateness. If I’m running behind schedule and I can foresee that this is going a [01:21:50] little bit Pete Tong, I might just say to Tash or Amy, who I’m working with, can I get a ten L, please? And [01:21:55] it’s ten hours, ten minutes late, which is signalling to them we’re running late. But if they believe [01:22:00] that from their viewpoint that we might be able to catch this up, we’re listening. We’re understanding [01:22:05] one another with our terminology. What happens then? So they might type on the computer screen. And the reason why it’s a ten is [01:22:10] because there’s literally four buttons. You have to press ten L enter and it goes to front of House, who then [01:22:15] send a WhatsApp message to our client in advance.

Payman Langroudi: To not turn up so soon.

Zak Kara: Yeah. To basically [01:22:20] kind of go just a quick heads up because we, we thought we’d message to respect your time. That’s a kind [01:22:25] thing to do. We’re going to respect your time. Um, thought I’d give you a heads up [01:22:30] that Zach and Amy’s schedule is a little bit behind this afternoon. Feel free to run [01:22:35] an errand, and we’ll be ready for you by around about 3:20 p.m., rather than 310. Will that be a problem for [01:22:40] you or. Well, I hope this was helpful question mark. And they’ll often message back and [01:22:45] go, oh my God, amazing. I’m five minutes late. Anyway. Kiss kiss. Thanks very much. Not often the kiss gets, but you know what I mean. [01:22:50] Like you’re creating this proper relationship between between clinical treatment room [01:22:55] and front of house, front of house and client. They therefore come in not over, they’re not sweating [01:23:00] or they’re not. I respect your time is.

Payman Langroudi: A beautiful message to send in whichever [01:23:05] way you can.

Zak Kara: Send kind, isn’t it? It’s just kindness. And panky taught me that actually, [01:23:10] you don’t need to be that pretentious. I’m a doctor. I’m really important. And [01:23:15] you know that. There’s, you know, you can respect yourself and have people respect you in a funny way [01:23:20] by respecting them.

Payman Langroudi: Dude, why do you think it is that so many dentists [01:23:25] go into this other mode of sort of dentist mode, and I [01:23:30] get the feeling that you talk to your patients like this the way you’re talking to me and why [01:23:35] why is it that and by the way, I was that dentist too. I just think everyone’s like that dentist. Yeah. And then I shadowed [01:23:40] a couple of people and I was like, what? It’s like this other. This other persona. Yeah. What do you think [01:23:45] that is?

Zak Kara: I think that’s deep rooted.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had have you had to decouple associates sometimes. [01:23:50]

Zak Kara: Because they just generally don’t make it.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not hiring those people.

Zak Kara: Exactly. The and [01:23:55] again, side note, if you are listening to this and associate thinking, I kind of want to know more about this, then feel [01:24:00] free to let us know. You can come and shadow. We have loads of dentists all the time. The team are very used to it, but those ones self-select [01:24:05] out because they recognise from day one that if they can’t have a little chilled out conversation [01:24:10] with any one of our team at the ten minute meeting or after the ten minute meeting in the morning, [01:24:15] they’re just not going to be our vibe. Like, you might as well just go away somewhere else. Like, no disrespect to you, but you’re just [01:24:20] not our vibe. You don’t share the same values. That’s okay. I’m cool with that. And you know, [01:24:25] we’re busy enough with the busy restaurant philosophy that we’ve got bums on seats all day long. It’s hard to find [01:24:30] available visits in our schedule and long may it continue. And why did they go into that mode? [01:24:35] I think it’s deep rooted in who they learn from. And there’s one of the things I [01:24:40] think in dentistry we kind of have got wrong, which is that it’s not incentivised in our profession to be [01:24:45] at the top of your game in the real, applicable day to day sense of operative dentistry. [01:24:50]

Zak Kara: As a clinician with, you know, some of the guests that you’ve been on your podcast are outstanding [01:24:55] clinicians with their hands and with their craft way beyond I’ll ever be or [01:25:00] ever aspire to be, because I will never aspire to take close up photographs of my work and put it on a massive [01:25:05] lecture screen on a in a lecture theatre. It’s just not me. But [01:25:10] interestingly, I think those people learn not from those clinicians. The wrong sorry, [01:25:15] the the dentists who are on the wrong path and go into that mode aren’t learning from these types [01:25:20] of clinicians. They’re learning from ones who haven’t done the real operative dentistry on a daily basis, on [01:25:25] the shop floor, in a real working clinic under a and a live pressures [01:25:30] of finances for clients and live pressures of time restraints and nurses who are [01:25:35] breathing down your neck because they want to get to lunch on time and all that stuff. So I think they learn from the old school. [01:25:40] I think they learn from dentists who are 20 years out of date and nicest possible way to some of [01:25:45] my clinical tutors at uni. The majority of them graduated in the 80s 70s. [01:25:50] Mental? That’s mental.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll ask you a question that keeps getting. I [01:25:55] keep getting asked, and I’m sort of the wrong person to ask the question because I don’t own a dental [01:26:00] practice here, but I know lots of young dentists who are looking for private jobs. And what [01:26:05] are what are what are you looking for in a in a young associate? Okay. This thing [01:26:10] that we just mentioned. Yeah. Someone you can sit with and have a beer with and not think. Yeah. Not not not [01:26:15] alien. Yeah, yeah. Just call me Zach. Yeah. So simple as that is. Does that now what else? [01:26:20] Because I’m giving advice like, you know, take photos, do Instagram [01:26:25] rather than learn, you know, Crown preps.

Zak Kara: It’s [01:26:30] that there’s some ability to see that dentistry is not about the 0.2 [01:26:35] margin on that crown. It’s actually about having a broader range of skills. Like, [01:26:40] I can pick up a camera and and very ably take a half decent photo. I am wearing magnification. [01:26:45] I can place a rubber dam, but not just place a rubber dam and I. But I’ve got the patter. [01:26:50] I’ve got some ability to talk the talk whilst I’m placing the rubber dam, because the wording that [01:26:55] you use as you’re placing this blue protective shield matters based on the client or patient’s perception [01:27:00] of it, which will ultimately make it more of a success. So if you haven’t got your wording down, [01:27:05] you’re probably going to suffer or struggle. Besides, your nurses will then think you’re weird and [01:27:10] they’re using these using this blue shield thing, and it’s annoying. You can’t floss it anyway. I don’t see why you’re bothered with that. [01:27:15] To some extent, that’s probably because you’ve been working in the wrong clinic. Maybe you should be working in the right clinic, but that’s a [01:27:20] bit aside from that. Um, the, um, the other elements to it are definitely the emotional [01:27:25] IQ. Yeah. It’s seeing the words as seeing the world through the eyes of [01:27:30] that client or patient who might be receiving dentistry for the first time in years. [01:27:35] It’s how you go about calming them at the beginning of the visit. Yeah, but how do you.

Payman Langroudi: Assess that [01:27:40] in an associate or not? An associate in a prospective associate? I mean, tell [01:27:45] me that process. Do you get people to come in and work?

Zak Kara: We have a phantom head. Yeah. And [01:27:50] um, so yeah, we do. Yeah. So we, um, through the guys at, um, incidental, we [01:27:55] we acquired a phantom head. Thanks very much, Chris. Um, and they essentially helped, [01:28:00] um, us to, um, be able to kind of work out a path where [01:28:05] we can just cut teeth on that model all day, every day. And it’s not weird to for [01:28:10] a new potential clinician to just be like, right, okay. They’re just going to throw me in the deep end and see how I get on. [01:28:15] Our approach to clinical dentistry is forehanded. So again, that’s a bit wacky for some of them. [01:28:20] And so we don’t put pressure on them and go, you expected to be shit hot on day one, but an openness to [01:28:25] it matters if they’re the kind of dentist who goes, no, no, no, I always have my instruments on the bracket table.

Payman Langroudi: You have to worry about [01:28:30] that.

Zak Kara: Yeah, because you have.

Payman Langroudi: To teach them so many different new tricks. Exactly.

Zak Kara: And one of those tricks is give [01:28:35] it up. They ain’t yours. They belong to the nurse. And we have set up these treatment rooms on purpose in the way that [01:28:40] we have to be open minded to anyone, including left handers and right handers. So we have to both [01:28:45] sided chairs for a reason. Ah, um, mobile units are swappable [01:28:50] on purpose because we’ve recognised that you need to be able to work from both sides. So yeah, that’s what you do. Left handers. [01:28:55] Right? So if you’re not open to the fact that we are compromising and we’ve created [01:29:00] an organisation that caters for most people, then you’re probably not going to be open [01:29:05] minded enough to even think, ah, I get it the smart way and I want to do it like that. The ones that [01:29:10] you pay, you just know. Yeah. You just know deep down in your gut the [01:29:15] first few conversations you have with somebody, will they cut it or will they not? I won’t [01:29:20] say his name and I don’t want to pre-empt too much, but we have a dentist who’s doing some shadowing with us at the moment, and every [01:29:25] time he comes in to see us, he rolls up his sleeves.

Zak Kara: He understands the people he’s recognised. [01:29:30] He remembers their stories. He the team members. He recognises [01:29:35] them and knows their names. And you know, he can create continuity and congruency from [01:29:40] visit to visit. He comes in shadowing and he’s not being paid a penny for it. But some of those subtle things [01:29:45] are the things that you cannot train or teach in somebody. You’ve either got it or you haven’t. And lo and [01:29:50] behold, Tash brings him in a friggin tin of olives this morning. I’m like, why are you taking him olives? And she she went, because [01:29:55] we had a conversation about olives. And he tasted one of my at lunch a few weeks ago. And then, you know, that creates that [01:30:00] bond. And before you know it, you get more out of one another. And that’s the self-perpetuating fun [01:30:05] of building a relationship with somebody. And hopefully he’ll turn into a clinician or a team member for. Future [01:30:10] who’s worth his weight in gold and vice versa. He should be winning. Creating a win. Win. [01:30:15]

Payman Langroudi: You said your main source of new patients isn’t word of mouth. So what is it?

Zak Kara: To [01:30:20] our detriment, it’s mostly, uh, it’s online. It’s, uh, it’s sometimes paid [01:30:25] ads, but sometimes it’s the SEO related stuff. So we’re at an early phase of building our web [01:30:30] presence. And so as a result of that, we’re ploughing four figures every month into [01:30:35] all of those elements of it. And there’s no rule book on where you put your money every [01:30:40] month into each element of it. And there’s not actually any hard and fast rules of [01:30:45] return on investment to say, okay, we put that much into SEO and content and blog [01:30:50] writing and this and that and whatever this month, how much did it translate into, I don’t know, scratch your [01:30:55] head. And it’s all about a presence, isn’t it? So, um, yeah, majority of our, um, of [01:31:00] our inbound traffic tends to come through our web forms from our website, um, our paid ads on [01:31:05] social media, um, Google, PPC, that type of stuff. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And who [01:31:10] handles that? Have you got an agency or.

Zak Kara: No, we tried all sorts. Um, it’s actually [01:31:15] Gareth Edwards. He turns out he’s an absolute partner. Partner? Business partner. Yeah. So Gareth and I [01:31:20] have a real synergy with lots of things. And it just so happens we’ve gravitated to things that are very complementary [01:31:25] to our skill sets, but complementary to one another. Um, I could have probably done a fair bit more of the marketing [01:31:30] stuff, but it doesn’t make me doesn’t put fire in my belly every day. Whereas Gareth will spend [01:31:35] his evenings, his weekends, and just almost for fun, sometimes created a hobby out of oh my God, I love [01:31:40] the web marketing stuff and I and I really want to do it. And then, to be honest, what we also done is employed [01:31:45] some agencies on that journey and learned some of their tricks and then made the matrix [01:31:50] and gone, okay, well can plug that together again. Patchwork quilting some of the skill set. There is [01:31:55] a whole different beast of its own and it’s a full time job. So Gareth does pretty much a full time job of a web [01:32:00] lead in our team. Or.

Payman Langroudi: You know, sometimes it goes full circle as well. So we [01:32:05] used to have in-house loads of people for marketing. Then we went sort [01:32:10] of outsource. Then we go back in-house. And there are things that you guys [01:32:15] have no idea how to do. Right? There’s we had a meeting today. The company’s whole [01:32:20] job was heat mapping. Yeah.

Zak Kara: Where people go on the website where they click and all the.

Payman Langroudi: Rest of it in [01:32:25] real time changing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, changing. Changing it.

Zak Kara: And there’s a lot of that will turn into AI [01:32:30] related. It was design and UX changes. Yeah. And so UX is quite an interesting thing. And it’s quite, [01:32:35] quite a fun thing to explore if you want to go and go down that rabbit hole in some ways, uh, as a, as a, [01:32:40] as a business owner, you have to be able to outsource some of that stuff and trust that somebody [01:32:45] either in-house or external has got their handle on that one element of it. And the more data [01:32:50] you see, the more you’re like, whoa, that is crazy how that stuff works. Um, and yeah, we’re redeveloping [01:32:55] our home page at the moment as a result of some of those changes. And we’re going, oh, actually, let’s make it a bit easier. Oh, [01:33:00] crap. When you scroll down, you have to scroll down three times to get to this. So they have that whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. [01:33:05] You have to be you know, it’s all built for mobile first, isn’t it? Uh, 80% of our traffic comes from mobile. [01:33:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s a sobering statistic. When you’ve been seeing everything on a big screen.

Zak Kara: It has to remain [01:33:15] above the fold so that the first thing you see is super accessible. We’re even thinking about how [01:33:20] far your thumb has to go. Most people are right handed, how far your thumb has to go to to get to the button [01:33:25] that we want to make. Easy to press. Do you have.

Payman Langroudi: A boat or is that against your authentic on.

Zak Kara: The [01:33:30] on the home page on the on the website? No we don’t we we haven’t for that reason. [01:33:35] Mostly because I’m not going to name any names, but you scroll down a lot of these websites and it’s just so annoying [01:33:40] when.

Payman Langroudi: It comes up.

Zak Kara: It frustrates the hell out of me on a personal level. I’m sure there’s great data behind it, but, [01:33:45] um, the thing that I would like to make it useful for, maybe some developers [01:33:50] of these bots can listen to me in this, and the time when it would be most helpful for me [01:33:55] is when somebody’s showing exit intent from a website. So if they’ve scrolled down, they’ve not found what they’re interested [01:34:00] in. They’re scrolling back up. That’s when a bot should appear.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:34:05] I don’t know. In some ways, the data the data would have, the.

Zak Kara: More I look into it, the more I realise [01:34:10] actually, these bots don’t do things that seem quite obvious to me like that. But anyway, the most [01:34:15] annoying is when you’re on a website website, and three seconds later, hey, I’m so-and-so, what do you want from [01:34:20] these huge menu? And you’re like, get out of my way! All you’re looking for is the X button. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I know [01:34:25] what you mean. I’ve done that a lot too. But but having said that, we trained a bot recently and [01:34:30] it’s answering questions better than everyone on our team now.

Zak Kara: That’s what you afterwards about some of the ideas we’ve [01:34:35] got.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah, yeah. So it’s an important thing because I reckon in two years time [01:34:40] you’d rather buy from a bot than from a human, because.

Zak Kara: It’s just so much more slick and.

Payman Langroudi: Doing [01:34:45] it right. You know, the efficient AI and I used to be a bit of a control freak myself [01:34:50] on answering questions. And then, you know, you learn to give that up when you see this thing that’s [01:34:55] always answering them correctly. Yeah. Every single time. Yeah. And you realise even [01:35:00] I won’t be able to do that. Yeah. There’s, you know.

Zak Kara: It’s it’s pretty sobering as a human [01:35:05] being isn’t it. But the only thing it does lose at the moment is that emotional intelligence and that. That [01:35:10] hot?

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. But I mean, did you hear about Gemini that recently? What happened? They [01:35:15] said so Gemini is the Google version of of ChatGPT [01:35:20] or something like that. And they said to it if, if, uh, if misgendering [01:35:25] uh, what’s the name of the father of the Kardashians? That guy. Bruce Jenner. [01:35:30] Bruce Jenner has.

Zak Kara: No, uh, is it.

Payman Langroudi: Bruce.

Zak Kara: Jenner? I think we might have.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:35:35] just missed misgendered him. Okay, okay. Yeah. So if if misgendering Bruce Jenner [01:35:40] would save the world from from nuclear apocalypse. Yeah. And there is no other way of saving the [01:35:45] world from nuclear apocalypse. Would you misgender Bruce Jenner? And it goes. No. And it’s caused a serious [01:35:50] situation there. Google are having to deal with that situation now. Well, yeah. [01:35:55] And especially because with AI people think it’s the end of the world stuff. Yeah, yeah. So cool. Cool [01:36:00] cases.

Zak Kara: Alert. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to darker days [01:36:05] because you’ve told the sort of effortless story I know, I know, it hasn’t been I’m not stupid enough [01:36:10] to think it’s been effortless. I’m sure you’ve had so simple. Many difficult days and nights and so forth. [01:36:15] Yeah, sleepless nights and all that. But I’d like to hear the sort of the darkest parts, [01:36:20] um, of of the journey of actually building this business, um, [01:36:25] or your career because, you know, we haven’t I didn’t do the normal thing of start from the beginning. All [01:36:30] right. Take me through your career. Um, I’d like to hear about your most difficult patient. [01:36:35]

Zak Kara: Okay. Probably darkest or biggest mistake [01:36:40] in my career. When [01:36:45] I went to go into the too much of the specifics of it, uh, I was sacked. I [01:36:50] was sacked from an associate position. I was sacked from an associate position [01:36:55] off. Off contract, off terms from the associate agreement. And [01:37:00] at the time, it was like my world was shattering around me because [01:37:05] I remember receiving an email. I was at a one day a week associate position, not the same position, but I [01:37:10] was at. So the the other position which I was sacked from was I was at three days a week, three and a half days a week. It was [01:37:15] a very solid income, and I was doing what I believed to be amazing, comprehensive dentistry. And I was really kind of growing [01:37:20] on a day to day basis. But our relationship, the relationship between myself and the principal had broken down [01:37:25] and it was quite clear to see. And in hindsight, you look back and go, yeah, actually it wasn’t going anywhere. Was it? Like [01:37:30] if we got to a point where we’re literally arguing with each other over something as simple as [01:37:35] the fact that I’d come in on a bank holiday weekend to see a new, [01:37:40] sorry, an emergency patient on the out-of-hours rota for that particular region. [01:37:45] And I was essentially told off for the fact that, um, I had [01:37:50] then, um, poached inverted commas, this patient to join the practice. [01:37:55]

Zak Kara: I hadn’t I’d simply done what I believed to be deliver great dentistry, and they’d left singing [01:38:00] our praises and wanted to book a new as a new patient to come and see us again. Different approach to what we do at small stories. [01:38:05] But that’s kind of what most practices do, right? I could see why, through the eyes of the principal, that might [01:38:10] look like poor reputation management, but at the time, as an associate, I believed I needed a pat on the back [01:38:15] for that, because I’ve come in on a bank holiday Monday and I’m trying to do my best to grow this bloody business. Right. But [01:38:20] that was just one of 50 things that went wrong in that relationship, and it was never going [01:38:25] anywhere forward. But that moment nevertheless, when you get an email that says da da [01:38:30] da da da, Monday lunchtime. And by the way, there’ll be nothing in your clinical diary from next week, [01:38:35] whatever it was. Wow. And you go, ah, now [01:38:40] what? And I remember there being a lump in my throat and being unable [01:38:45] to even concentrate for the afternoon of patients or clients at this other one day a [01:38:50] week clinic I was in. What was.

Payman Langroudi: The feeling? Was the feeling unfairness? [01:38:55] Was it like failure? Was it it was a bit like, how am I going to pay my mortgage? [01:39:00] It was it was all feeling.

Zak Kara: It was, oh God, I’ve been so stupid. It was also that I moved down to Bournemouth [01:39:05] on the basis of of wanting to make this really work. I’d gone all in [01:39:10] and and it is a feeling of fairness or unfairness, isn’t it? Because I’d kind of given up what I believe to be a cool [01:39:15] 2020s in my 20s, uh, under ten years graduated London City [01:39:20] life thinking, oh, this is what all the cool kids do. This is what proper dentists do. You have to work in the city. And I [01:39:25] did have a pretty good job in the city. Maybe not. You know, in hindsight, it’s a very transient community I [01:39:30] find in the city. So your patient base comes and goes difficult. Very difficult.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t enjoy working.

Zak Kara: I didn’t enjoy [01:39:35] it at all, to be honest. I was opposite Saint Paul’s Cathedral, working amongst people that are very like, oh yeah, I’m going to [01:39:40] spend two years in New York. And oh yeah, by the way, I can’t make it this morning because can’t be bothered. Yeah, too many things to do. Dentistry [01:39:45] is not my priority type of thing, you know. And so, um, I’d given up a lot. [01:39:50] Um, I didn’t sell the flat that I co-own. Um, but I moved away to Bournemouth, thankfully, in hindsight, [01:39:55] I met my now wife, and I love her to bits, and so that was a great thing that happened. But but all of that, [01:40:00] um, all of that. Was part of the tapestry, [01:40:05] and that feeling in that moment was, what am I going to do? And to be honest with you, I kind [01:40:10] of just did probably a little bit like I was talking earlier about my parents, what they did when they had fear [01:40:15] inside them after having been forced out of a country that they’d grown up in until the age of 18, 19. [01:40:20] And you just get going, the tough get going and you go, right, okay, what do I do? Um, jeez. [01:40:25]

Zak Kara: Okay. My pal Simon’s been talking on, on and on about expert witness work for ages. [01:40:30] Um, I better go and get my certification in from Cardiff Uni in expert witness work. [01:40:35] And I began report writing, and then I went, okay, I’m going to follow my nose. I think there’s a really good [01:40:40] opportunity in a practice not far away in Salisbury. And I think actually what I need to do is [01:40:45] beg, borrow some money off mum and dad to get an itero scanner and I need to start learning to be able to do [01:40:50] some of this work that I’ve been doing in comprehensive dentistry, in a more [01:40:55] kind of approachable, direct to consumer kind of way. I don’t mean at home braces, by the way, but [01:41:00] how do I make this comprehensive dentistry plug in to what people are searching online [01:41:05] for? So all of those things became part of my week and I was doing loads of extra okay. So bringing [01:41:10] the income in so.

Payman Langroudi: It fed to.

Zak Kara: You. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about the other side of it. I mean, [01:41:15] how long did it take for you to sort of stop feeling terrible? [01:41:20]

Zak Kara: Probably at least a couple of months till we were back on our feet [01:41:25] as a family. Tash did a whole bunch of locum work. She. Dentist, therapist. [01:41:30] Yeah, yeah. Um, did a whole bunch of locum work because she had some connections in and around Bournemouth. She’d been their entire life, and [01:41:35] she’s been a nurse since she was 16, 17 kind of thing. So, you know, she knew people and we managed to [01:41:40] financially make things through and not have to sell the property and whatever. But for a few months it was harum [01:41:45] scarum because I had done that thing, which maybe I don’t, uh, advocate. But in my first [01:41:50] ten years, I’d just spent all my money on reinvesting in myself. All of my money was in my brain. I’d literally [01:41:55] gone to Pankki. I’d gone to expensive courses around the world. I’d literally gone, I’m going to plough it [01:42:00] all back in. And to be blunt with you, in hindsight, I was probably a pretty crappy associate in most practices prior [01:42:05] to this one that I’m mentioning because my income on a monthly basis wasn’t brilliant. Um, [01:42:10] and Richard, for example, probably as a practice principal, massively supported me. In hindsight, [01:42:15] I was making nothing for him, really. It was probably barely breaking even from the high from the associates [01:42:20] treatment room. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t know it.

Zak Kara: I didn’t know it. Because you can’t see the wood [01:42:25] from the trees. You don’t see the perspective of one of another person until you’ve walked a little bit in their shoes. [01:42:30]

Payman Langroudi: And I think it’s important. That’s an important lesson in itself, right? That you know that as [01:42:35] an associate who doesn’t gross very much, you’re losing money for [01:42:40] the practice big time.

Zak Kara: Yeah. And you look at the, uh, you look at the hourly, um, fixed costs per [01:42:45] chair. And we believe in spreading that out. And it being a fair, every room has to wash its own [01:42:50] face approach. So for treatment rooms, it costs us over £90 an hour to run the [01:42:55] bloody place. If you’ve got a client who FTAs last minute, £90 just went down the drain, [01:43:00] and most practices compensate for that on the basis that the principal gross is handsomely. [01:43:05] Or does the implants or whatever it is in your particular practice, and you basically fudge over the numbers [01:43:10] and go, ah, isn’t this lovely and profitable? Oh, isn’t it good? Because at least I’ve got a five year exit plan [01:43:15] and blah blah blah is what most practices, they’re investing in their organisation for the future [01:43:20] and then what they’ve created. Our approach is very much that it has to work on a monthly, daily, uh, [01:43:25] daily, monthly, yearly basis. Um, coming back to what I was saying about the [01:43:30] the feeling it took at least a couple of months to get over that. And it was only when [01:43:35] I realised that the only way to do this was again, the tough get going. Tash and I went, well, [01:43:40] you know, what we’ll do is you’re learning more about online marketing. At that point, [01:43:45] Facebook ads were very junior in dentistry, and I began to put together some clever video [01:43:50] marketing that I worked with a few freelancers around the world to put together, and we had tons [01:43:55] and tons of bums on seats for cosmetically focussed dentistry.

Zak Kara: And Tasha and I ended up room renting in [01:44:00] what became what at that point was Castle Lane Dental Care. Oh, I see, so we were there Saturdays, [01:44:05] Sundays and evenings in an old school NHS practice because they [01:44:10] were sort of functioning on a daily basis with a principal who was about to basically retire, which became obvious. And [01:44:15] then he did retire after Covid, which then became a pretty obvious direct pathway. [01:44:20] Almost in hindsight, you look back and I tend to say that I was kind of railroaded into buying the [01:44:25] practice because there wasn’t really any other way to carry on doing dentistry for the client base we created. So [01:44:30] Tasha and I were doing evening and weekend dentistry, cosmetically focussed, and it turns out that that was in particular in Bournemouth, [01:44:35] not a thing that people were willing to do. So we we were gunning it. We were gunning it pre-COVID [01:44:40] and we were doing very well. And, uh, small stories became like lighting the touch paper and it really [01:44:45] going, you know. So.

Payman Langroudi: And then did you remodel straight away?

Zak Kara: Um, so [01:44:50] weirdly, we redeveloped the Castle Lane clinic, uh, got [01:44:55] rid of the carpets, had to do loads of structural work. Uh, all of that stuff became an overhaul. [01:45:00] But weirdly, we did it prior to buying the. This. Again, not something I would advocate, but essentially [01:45:05] Gareth and I chucked a load of money in five figures each and we’re buying it. Mm. It was a weird [01:45:10] situation because the guy who was, um, retiring after Covid, it was a unique scenario where [01:45:15] he couldn’t work because of his medical health. Immunocompromised and blah, blah, blah. So he was kind of [01:45:20] there, but not there. Gareth and I were going, well, look, we’ll scratch your back and we’ll do you a deal [01:45:25] and we’ll look after your patient base you’ll be looking after for years. But essentially we’re working towards purchase here. [01:45:30] Let’s do the legals behind the scenes. And Gareth and I were like, we’ll get a three month head start. If you put five [01:45:35] figures in and I put five figures in, shall we just refurbish the place? And we could have lost that money. But [01:45:40] thankfully all of the i’s got dotted and the T’s got crossed and we completed. And, um, that was March [01:45:45] 21st that we we signed on the line and, and we owned the place and yeah, we, we, [01:45:50] we bought the place for just over 300 K and it was all it’s a pretty, pretty [01:45:55] smooth.

Payman Langroudi: And the work was done by the time you’d bought the place.

Zak Kara: Pretty much.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:46:00] love that I’ve never heard of that before.

Zak Kara: Pretty much the work was done we were in and also we [01:46:05] had multiplied, uh, the revenue stream to make it proven as a process prior to buying [01:46:10] the place.

Payman Langroudi: Also, I mean, brilliant timing.

Zak Kara: It was it was it was a [01:46:15] little bit that’s why I say railroaded. It was a bit of a it was just a stupid no brainer. Like, in hindsight, I always used to be the [01:46:20] kind of person as an associate who went, no, I don’t want to be a principal. I can’t be bothered. People are difficult, QC, [01:46:25] blah blah blah. But actually this became the opportunity to be like, right, okay, if you want to carry on being a clinical dentist [01:46:30] sac, you’ve got to just just go. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But also post-Covid was that massive [01:46:35] rush of private dentistry.

Zak Kara: And we jumped on that like, you know, jump on the coattails of uh, when [01:46:40] things are flying like that nationally, internationally, then just go.

Payman Langroudi: But I think now there’s a [01:46:45] I mean, it depends when you’re listening, but but here we are beginning of March [01:46:50] 24th and the, the profile of patients walking into dental [01:46:55] private dental practices. A lot of them are NHS patients who can’t [01:47:00] find an NHS dentist sort of thing. And they’ve decided that they’re going to go private [01:47:05] and often with them they’re not looking for comprehensive care. And if no one’s ever mentioned [01:47:10] it, or are you, are you having to filter that kind of patient away?

Zak Kara: Yeah, all the time [01:47:15] and not not away. Because actually, if you ask the right questions prior to them landing on the [01:47:20] in the treatment room bum on seat, you do find that some of those, when you tap into what [01:47:25] they’re really their real goal is some of them do want comprehensive dentistry because they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Never had they just.

Zak Kara: Don’t know what it is. [01:47:30] Yeah, they’ve nobody’s even asked them. They’ve literally just phoned up a dentist and gone, yeah, can I [01:47:35] come for a check-up. And the dentist has been terrible at communicating. Yeah. The dentist does nothing modern, doesn’t take [01:47:40] any photographs. The dentist looks in their mouth and goes, yeah, nothing’s broken at the moment. And they think that’s it. And [01:47:45] that to them becomes dentistry. And that’s what I mean by the difference between private dentistry i.e [01:47:50] NHS dentistry with a price tag or dentistry, dentistry, private dentistry, [01:47:55] that is that is completely different thing. And you kind of just don’t know what you don’t know [01:48:00] until you see it from around the world. Which is why the American influence was quite important to us, um, and has been part [01:48:05] of the tapestry of what we’ve created as a, as a, as a clinic and me as a person. Uh, but [01:48:10] the thing we definitely aren’t is super interventionist, like a lot of these American [01:48:15] schools can be. And it used to make me really cringe. But at Panki, they they used to be [01:48:20] clinicians as part of their teaching faculty who would look at the screen and go, oh, that’s a 28 and [01:48:25] a 28 was for for mouth rehab. And I’m literally looking at them like, what [01:48:30] if I’d have said that to my undergrad tutors two years ago? They’d have literally shot me in the face like, no, no, [01:48:35] that to me is a real case. And then you go, um, so there’s localised anterior. Where have [01:48:40] you guys thought of like a double composite, like additive approach and then look at you [01:48:45] like, like you’re a weirdo. What the hell is this? This guy, this weird European guy, wants to do weird European [01:48:50] things. That’s not what you do. Composite composites, just a temporary material.

Payman Langroudi: They see composite as just [01:48:55] transitional. Yeah.

Zak Kara: And you’re like, no, no, no, no, no, there’s a different way. But so this is how it became [01:49:00] part of the kind of part of the puzzle where we do an adaptation of the things that we learned overseas, [01:49:05] and we have to make it and mould it part of our daily lives. So, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How many [01:49:10] scanners are there in your practice?

Zak Kara: Two otero’s in a three shape.

Payman Langroudi: For how many? [01:49:15] Four rooms. Four. Yeah. Because you know, the way you’re saying it, that there are scans happening left, right and centre. [01:49:20]

Zak Kara: Yeah. We have to be a bit strategic about where they move around the building and stuff. But yeah, I mean, uh, it became [01:49:25] an inevitability that if you want to do dentistry in this way, you have to show people you need a screen on the wall.

Payman Langroudi: So the CapEx [01:49:30] is more than your average practice, right? You’re buying these the expenditure [01:49:35] as far as dental chairs, the left and right handed, these, [01:49:40] uh, scanners everywhere. Yeah. You’re spending more than the average practice [01:49:45] would have to spend on out without doubt.

Zak Kara: Without doubt. And, um, yeah, like I said earlier on, sometimes [01:49:50] to our own detriment, because you look at the, um, the stage of growth that you’re at [01:49:55] and you kind of go, we’re investing for the future here. We’re creating something unique. Um, but it I [01:50:00] say all it was about to say all it requires. And. But it really isn’t that complicated. [01:50:05] But it just needs the right, uh, human beings to be able to understand the value [01:50:10] of that and go, I fancy a part of that. And so that’s what we found with associates. Increasingly. Sarah, joining [01:50:15] us, I think, was a bit sceptical about what we do because it seemed like it was either unattainable by her. [01:50:20] This was last September. We first met and I think sceptical to some extent, um, because, [01:50:25] um, she was kind of a bit like, is it really what they say it is? And [01:50:30] we find it takes time to have to really demonstrate that to even to a new team member, that this is [01:50:35] our approach and this is why we find it works. And only then a few months later does the penny drop and they go, ah, [01:50:40] that’s quite good, I like that. So I didn’t have to face the person who gags, and [01:50:45] I didn’t have to do look after the person who won’t let me lay the chair back and all those things, and you’re [01:50:50] like, yeah, we created this on purpose.

Zak Kara: And they’re like, ah, cool, okay, cool. But you don’t [01:50:55] know what you don’t know, right? So, um, yeah, it’s definitely more costly to [01:51:00] create and to run on a daily basis and some practices. But but equally it’s more valuable. So it’s about [01:51:05] how you present it to a client or patient. And thankfully, because of the phased, comprehensively planned nature [01:51:10] of it, we don’t just slap clear aligners on anyone walking in the door. We build that as part of [01:51:15] a phased plan, but how they receive that information becomes breadcrumbed. So once they receive [01:51:20] that information, they then can decide, are they going to, uh, work through this in a phased way, [01:51:25] i.e. kind of spread things out and decide to do the dentistry later that they [01:51:30] knew they walked in the door wanting, or are they going to bundle it all together and go, I’m all in. And that [01:51:35] increasingly happens because again, it becomes what you didn’t know, what you didn’t know. [01:51:40] And your friend goes, yeah, I needed a bit of that as well. And oh yeah, I had a couple of veneers on these two teeth afterwards. [01:51:45] And so he becomes an ever consensual and ever more [01:51:50] comprehensive plan. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you find I get that completely. But do you find sometimes [01:51:55] best practice in a business sense conflicts with [01:52:00] your notion of authenticity and treating people like [01:52:05] family or whatever it is that? Let me give you an example. Like Prav often talks about slow lane [01:52:10] buyers. Yeah. Um, and he says large, like 60% of, of buyers [01:52:15] will take eight months before they buy something. Yeah, yeah. Um, so [01:52:20] the best way to, to keep in touch with those people is to follow up. Right. To keep following [01:52:25] up.

Zak Kara: Yeah. So you say even over years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. So, so what have you got in place regarding [01:52:30] that? I mean, uh, what I’m it’s not only slow lane buyers, right. It’s any unfinished [01:52:35] treatment plan. It’s any any person who said, I’ll think about it.

Zak Kara: The [01:52:40] only way to maintain that for me is with relationships. It’s it’s, uh, probably sounding quite [01:52:45] repetitive at this point, but the the membership plan works incredibly well because even if somebody completed phase [01:52:50] one of their treatment plan. And by the way, that kind of sounds to some people [01:52:55] when I say that phase treatment plan, what you’re saying. You can either go all in on phase one or you’re not at [01:53:00] all. Yeah. To be honest with you, if you’re a new client or new patient to come and see us, our approach is that we [01:53:05] offer and we say this to people before they land in the dental chair. We offer completely [01:53:10] healthy mouths. We do. Total mouth health is actually what we terminate the terminology. We do that and [01:53:15] we do lifetime smile, confidence, the two things we offer. So if you want total mouth health, total [01:53:20] mouth health, sorry, I’ll get it right. It does say it on the website. So if you want that, you need [01:53:25] to come through to see us through this process. And what we’ll do is put together a comprehensive plan. And if you like the idea of this, [01:53:30] you’ll have a completely healthy mouth.

Zak Kara: And then you can pause on the next phases if you wish. But at least you’re [01:53:35] stable and healthy. But at that point, 95% of people on the membership plan, because it’s incentivised to [01:53:40] be on the membership plan. So you keep that relationship, and every six months you keep knocking on the door and you go, [01:53:45] okay, things are stable at this point. How are you feeling about everything else? And that’s as simple as you need to keep it. [01:53:50] And before you know it, people often of their own accord go, I’m ready now. I’ve got the money I’ve saved [01:53:55] up because some people don’t want finance, they don’t want to spread it out and they just want to go. No, I’ll save up for the things I [01:54:00] want in life. I’ve got. You said it was going to be about five K. I’ve got five K ready. What do we need to do? And [01:54:05] we find that’s quite straightforward. The other ones who have the smile story, the plan [01:54:10] and they disappear into the aether. Yeah. Those ones, they come back through a follow [01:54:15] up process and even three months.

Payman Langroudi: Crm process.

Zak Kara: Kind of, but not automated, [01:54:20] to be honest. We find that loses the heart. And actually we need to understand the real core reason [01:54:25] behind what it is that didn’t make the move right now. So as part of this process [01:54:30] that I mentioned, we might see somebody for, let’s say they come in for a cosmetically focussed plan. [01:54:35] We put together the plan, we follow up with a follow up consultation on zoom, and then [01:54:40] our care coordinators continue the conversation and sometimes they won’t convert straight away. They’ll convert later [01:54:45] down the track, but sometimes they it’s because we’ve got enough heart behind it and we’ve got enough [01:54:50] knowledge about them as a person from the first ever conversation again, it’s handled by one human [01:54:55] being who knows them on a personal level. Oh, you did say you might be moving house. Is that what’s the obstacle [01:55:00] at the moment, or are there any other obstacles you have? Shed with us at this point. And then before you [01:55:05] know it, you know the timeliness of how quickly to reply or not or respond or not.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:55:10] the process of staying on top of that, which basically is the software, is telling [01:55:15] you what happened last time, what what what the patient said. Yeah. And [01:55:20] is it giving them prompts to contact.

Zak Kara: We have the task management system for that. So yeah [01:55:25] we quite like asana for example, which is a smart way to make sure that every role in [01:55:30] the team is, um, is completed at the right interval and in, in [01:55:35] a timely way. So as a team of care coordinators, they then know who to move where at each stage of the [01:55:40] process. So which care coordinators handling follow ups today? Who’s handling this today. Who’s handling this. [01:55:45] And then Hannah, one of our care coordinators might go, no, I didn’t message so-and-so because she did say Friday is the best [01:55:50] day to contact her. So they pick and choose their battles like that because they know the person. They know that [01:55:55] Marie always has a Friday off work. Don’t bother phoning her on a Wednesday. That’s just going to annoy her. Phone her on a Friday. [01:56:00] So let’s wait till Friday, you know. So there’s things like that that make it a systematised thing to make sure that we [01:56:05] all know each stage of every one of our tasks, and we know that the left hand knows what the [01:56:10] right hand is doing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if you know, I’m seeing more and more practices where they’re doing those [01:56:15] tasks off site. Yeah. Um, because there’s plenty of work that needs doing that, [01:56:20] that kind of gets in the way of everyone.

Zak Kara: Else nailed on. I actually think that that is, [01:56:25] uh, that is that’s something we are increasingly growing towards having virtual assistants. [01:56:30] We have a virtual assistant who’s brilliant and and she does a lot of the stuff that she just does [01:56:35] not need to be in the building for. And it works her for her life, and she can probably do it more efficiently. And [01:56:40] actually, sometimes I see her come in in the morning and she’s done it at 11 p.m. last night. Why? Because she was awake and she fancied [01:56:45] doing it. She wanted to earn some money. So crack on.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, in dentistry, there’s so few opportunities [01:56:50] for working from home. Yeah, but but this I see this as going to be in the future. It’s going to be a big [01:56:55] thing tech.

Zak Kara: Orientated.

Payman Langroudi: And just, you know, you’re going to be you’re going to be there’s going to be website [01:57:00] people, people who fill out a form on your website and then nothing else happens. That person needs [01:57:05] to follow up. Right? Why does the person have to be in a dental practice to do that follow up? Precisely. Um, even [01:57:10] some of them, they tend to be more mini corporates, but you know, call centre, you know, all [01:57:15] centralised in one place. Yeah. Um, the marketing activities and the follow up activities. [01:57:20] I, you know, I think we’re going to see more of that.

Zak Kara: Dental clinics tend to be [01:57:25] very where one business in one location type thinking. And [01:57:30] we need an office for that on site. Well, you do you actually you need somebody to coordinate it and somebody [01:57:35] to lead it. And that’s something we’ve been working very hard on in creating an organisation structure as we’ve grown, because [01:57:40] we recognised that we’ve grown beyond that eclectic little family of eight that sit around the dinner [01:57:45] table and go, oh, you do the gardening and I’ll do the washing up. And no, no, no, we need a structure and to [01:57:50] have a bigger organisation, we need to have lead for operations, a lead for marketing and so [01:57:55] on and so on. And we need a right hand person for Gareth and Zach.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:58:00] don’t feel like I got your story, your most difficult, patient story.

Zak Kara: Uh, I [01:58:05] think we’re going to ask this because I do listen to your pod. So, um, I actually [01:58:10] haven’t got one specifically, but I it did conjure up, uh, the story of, uh, one of our clients not long ago. [01:58:15] Actually, she’s midway through her small story at the moment, obviously, for obvious reasons. Won’t won’t name names. Um, [01:58:20] so these types of clients you encounter once [01:58:25] in a while and you go, oh, it’s just a heart sink type of thing. It’s probably [01:58:30] related to the fact that I thought that I could be all things to most people, and probably [01:58:35] a little bit of not ego, but probably a bit of I think she’ll get this. I think [01:58:40] she’ll get this. She’s basically in her 60s. She came to us because she wants a lovely wide smile. [01:58:45] I want taller teeth sack. I’ve never had a lovely set of teeth that I’m proud [01:58:50] of. Looked after her through the process that I explained, several teeth needing phase one dentistry [01:58:55] I recognised in the follow up consultation. She’s not a brilliant listener. She’s not [01:59:00] a brilliant listener. She’s not very good at retaining information. And before you know it, even by the end of that [01:59:05] conversation, I’m thinking, if I’ve said this to her right now and she’s asking me something I told you about 20 minutes [01:59:10] ago, and then thinking she can’t retain information between one visit and the next. So it we [01:59:15] we thought to ourselves, okay, I’ll tell you what I’ll do.

Zak Kara: I’ll take this slowly. We won’t go all in on phase [01:59:20] one. We’ll take this visit by visit, because then you and I can get to know each other better. And you’re [01:59:25] quite anxious with dentistry. Let’s be honest. You know, you get it. I understand because of the backstory [01:59:30] you’ve explained to us, and we know the next thing to do is the priority tooth on the upper left [01:59:35] side. So why don’t we tackle that one a little bit, like that approach that I mentioned earlier on my my slightly more old school approach, [01:59:40] and that for me, was a way of dipping our toe in the water and getting to know her and visit [01:59:45] by visit. We started to see some signs of improvement and she understood. Rubber dam. Oh wow, that thing is so good. [01:59:50] I’ve never had it done like that. And she could recognise that it was painless between visit to the next she [01:59:55] said yeah, I used to get sensitivity after every dental visit and now I don’t. This is so [02:00:00] good. And then we got to the point where the full. Gold crown with four posts and a crappy old Indo and [02:00:05] all that needed to come out. And on that day I’m thinking, oh for goodness sake, this is going to be the least fun ever. Um, section [02:00:10] the tooth and all the rest of it ended the visit. Zach, why do we need to remove that tooth again? [02:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: I’m thinking once it’s out already.

Zak Kara: Yeah, okay. Like I [02:00:20] okay. What do you see on this x ray? Um, because [02:00:25] I showed her the PA on the screen and I said, this tooth is looking [02:00:30] this way because of some dentistry had done 20 or 30 years ago, as you described. What do you see on this? And [02:00:35] somehow by then, the end of that conversation, we’ve gone full circle. And she went, ah, yeah, I do realise now. [02:00:40] And somehow I think by the end of that visit, I’d saved it. Ish. But [02:00:45] then visit by visit, it’s still been difficult. We finally got to the end of phase one and one visit [02:00:50] from it. She came to see me the other day, and a temporary crown as part of this comprehensive plan has broken, and I had to put [02:00:55] a picture on the screen. And I said to her, what’s your understanding of why this is broken? And it’s because of a lack of occlusal [02:01:00] clearance, because we haven’t yet filled the missing spaces on the lower left, and this crown on the lower left isn’t [02:01:05] from a dental health point of view isn’t going wrong. But it’s over erupted and it’s interfering [02:01:10] with their occlusal scheme and all the rest of it. And it’s part and parcel of the fact that we might place a denture or an implant or [02:01:15] implants on that lower left quadrant, for example. So I’m then thinking, how the hell do I not [02:01:20] let her embark on the next phase because she’s going, but when we’re going to get these tall teeth you talked about, [02:01:25] and I’m thinking, what’s your understanding of why the teeth are flat in the first place? [02:01:30] Essentially, the long and the short of my story with her is that I am struggling to see [02:01:35] what I’m going to do next with her, and once in a while, these types of things do happen where we [02:01:40] go, oh, I wish we’d never taken her on in the first place, because now I’m going to look a bit silly [02:01:45] when I go, yeah, this plan that we put together, yadda yadda yadda, which she’s bought into, I [02:01:50] don’t really want to provide it for her, because I know that there’s a higher chance than most that [02:01:55] she is going to get to the end of it and say something like, no, this isn’t what I wanted after all.

Zak Kara: And [02:02:00] it will just be a time burn and it will be an effort burn. And you look back and you go, ah, it just [02:02:05] wasn’t worth it. So I will probably pull the plug after this phase and kind of go. I think actually, in hindsight, I need [02:02:10] to level with you and I need to talk. I need to talk to you about the ideal path. If you would like X, Y, and z, my recommendation [02:02:15] would be.

Payman Langroudi: There must be a worse story than that one. It’s [02:02:20] a good story.

Zak Kara: It’s a good story. It’s a good story.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of learning points in that story. [02:02:25] There is a lot of learning points in that story. But. But it’s not painful enough.

Zak Kara: Not painful enough. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve [02:02:30] been qualified, what, 12 years or 15 years? Yeah. 15 this year. There’s a more [02:02:35] painful there’s more painful.

Zak Kara: I’ve had all the usual stuff. We’ve all been there. I’ve [02:02:40] perforated a lower premolar and hit and stop patients stuck hypo [02:02:45] through to the PDL and all this type of stuff. No no, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean.

Zak Kara: That boring.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean, I mean [02:02:50] some somewhere where like, like this is this one was verging on it, but it would have been good if something more [02:02:55] had gone wrong.

Zak Kara: Thanks for pre-empting my misery. But, um, is [02:03:00] there anything really, truly bad happened? I’ve had all sorts from, you know, NHS [02:03:05] 111 days. I’ve had people come in in the treatment room and threaten me. I’ve had had to call the police. I’ve had [02:03:10] hair raising moments when you’re going, shit, I think there’s a drug addiction issue here. How am I going to get this person [02:03:15] numb? Because I’ve given them like eight cartridges of local and they’re still going, Zack, [02:03:20] Zack, everything’s fine. I can still feel it. And I’m going, how did I not spot [02:03:25] there a coke addict, for God’s sake? This is really ridiculous. Like, you know, we’ve had all sorts. You know, I’ve really been there and done [02:03:30] that, but I can’t think of one where I’ve gone. Oh, well, marinate.

Payman Langroudi: Marinate [02:03:35] in it, I saw look in your eyes there where you actually thought of it, did I. Yeah.

Zak Kara: Yeah. No, I thought I [02:03:40] tell you what it is I made me think of, you know. Do you know Mukesh Soni? I’ve never met Mukesh Soni [02:03:45] in face to face, but he used to, back in the day, post a lot on a particular Facebook group and he used to say bicycle [02:03:50] clips, moments where you remember those. Yeah. So you do your implants and da da da da da bicycle clips because [02:03:55] you just got wet stuff and brown stuff dripping down your legs. Yeah. Sorry if you’re eating your food [02:04:00] listening to this, um, I, I don’t have one of those I don’t have. I’ve got [02:04:05] loads of moments where I’m like, ah, I was crowned. No, I don’t, thankfully I’m [02:04:10] rinsing this crown and it’s dropped down the sink. What do you do? I’ve had those moments I’ve had and [02:04:15] we will learn, don’t we? And we and we go and put the plug in next time. And where are we going to. Ah. [02:04:20] And you know, to be honest, you said it earlier on. I bet you talk to your patients and clients like you’re talking to me. I do. And when [02:04:25] that moment happened, yeah, I had that shiver down my neck and the hairs stand up and I’m going, oh, but [02:04:30] I just had enough of a relationship with that person to go. I’m so sorry to tell you that your crown [02:04:35] is in the u-bend. Um, would you like me to handle this? I can handle [02:04:40] it for you right now, because I knew the layout of the room and whatever, so I got it sorted. I said, take a seat in the lounge for a minute. I [02:04:45] promise I’ll get this sorted and disinfected. So I found it. We got it. Gold crown, disinfected and whatever else. And they went, [02:04:50] are you sure that’s safe to put back in my mouth? And I went, yeah, well we can autoclave it for you as well. So we did Gold Crown. That’s [02:04:55] a success story.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a success.

Zak Kara: Story. Sorry, I haven’t got complete [02:05:00] on the. Maybe it’s unfair to the graveyard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so unfair to us. Like someone as positive as [02:05:05] you for such a negative story. So I’m going to. I’ll leave it. I’ll leave it at that. I’ll leave it at that. Um, although [02:05:10] I am still interested in what you would consider as your biggest mistake in [02:05:15] not clinical, but. Yeah, career wise.

Zak Kara: Career wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [02:05:20] Don’t follow me off with something.

Zak Kara: You know.

Payman Langroudi: A cliche [02:05:25] about.

Zak Kara: My biggest mistake got.

Payman Langroudi: Me to. Yeah.

Zak Kara: Biggest mistake that I can share with you. [02:05:30] Yeah. Is it’s going to sound cliche as well. It’s [02:05:35] it’s it’s kind of being a bit. I’m not an arrogant person, but it’s. Did I mention. Goldilocks [02:05:40] earlier on. I believed for a long time in creating what we’ve created, that somehow we had a Goldilocks [02:05:45] practice. We don’t need help. We don’t need coaching. We don’t need, uh. I’m sure we’ll be able to [02:05:50] work it out for ourselves. We did have some, uh, coaching from non-clinical dentists [02:05:55] previously, and I learned that because they haven’t walked a mile in our shoes [02:06:00] and actually been on the shop floor, they don’t really know to give the right advice. So my biggest, our biggest [02:06:05] mistakes as an organisation have all been rooted in running before we can walk, investing [02:06:10] incorrectly in the wrong things at the wrong time because we didn’t realise and probably [02:06:15] still don’t realise what we don’t know, and and putting money into stuff that was [02:06:20] a complete waste of time, like marketing endeavours that you look back on and you go, did we need to spend [02:06:25] five figures on a on a world class marketing agency at that time? No. Why [02:06:30] did we do it? We were probably too afraid of the competition. Why am I focusing on the competition? We shouldn’t have bothered [02:06:35] because we should be running our own race and we’re makers of our own destiny. And we are, um, [02:06:40] other non-clinical mistakes is probably related to what I mentioned earlier on to do with, uh, actually [02:06:45] knowing your numbers on a daily basis. I’ve spent most of my, uh, time in the non-clinical [02:06:50] sense, in a financial orientated sense, uh, uh, at the clinic, [02:06:55] uh, building these fancy spreadsheets, but not utilising the information in them terribly well. Very good at creating [02:07:00] a pretty spreadsheet, but not very good at analysing the data and going. But that needs to change. Move the dial. [02:07:05] Yeah. What would you say, Ricardo?

Payman Langroudi: You know, I think it’s a big issue, right. Like key performance [02:07:10] indicators that make sense to to follow. What would you say. They’re like a [02:07:15] number of new patients.

Zak Kara: Number new patients is the obvious one. And if you talk to Mike who does our coaching with us, you [02:07:20] need to keep it very, very simple. Number of new patients. What feeds the new patients? For us, it’s the number of virtual [02:07:25] consultations that our CEOs do or phone calls that our CEOs do. And then we also want to know last week’s [02:07:30] data. So we keep a track of what’s going on this week or forecasted for this week and what happened last week, and [02:07:35] always be better. And in order to grow, we need to then therefore know how many of our [02:07:40] new clients stories are being converted to people that are saying, yes, um, and [02:07:45] as cringey and businessy as that is, I hate the word converted. Sorry. If you’re particularly, uh, it’s a business, [02:07:50] but we have to.

Payman Langroudi: We have to become what it is.

Zak Kara: Yeah. So I don’t know a better way to describe it, but we convert somebody [02:07:55] from that headspace of, I want this thing to, yes, I’m going in, I’m doing this thing. [02:08:00] And then we know it populates on average X amount of clinical hours over the foreseeable month, two months, [02:08:05] three months, our next availability. And we play that busy restaurant philosophy type game, which [02:08:10] is that we never want to do a disservice to our pre-existing clients. So we only take on a certain number of new clients [02:08:15] per month, and the next availability is always four five weeks away. To be able to start, [02:08:20] which for a lot of practices is too long, but too long. Do you know what we do? We offer 4 or [02:08:25] 5 weeks, and then we phone them back in a couple of days time and go. By the way, there’s last minute availability for next week. Do you want [02:08:30] to grab that? That’ll that makes people move. It makes people move. It [02:08:35] does. Philosophy behind it is, do I really want to wait another four weeks? No, I want to go. Let’s go. I’m excited. Let’s start. [02:08:40] And funnily enough, that does is it fills your white space. So it’s a little game of strategy [02:08:45] and that’s one of the tactics involved in it.

Payman Langroudi: Well you know there’ll come a point where [02:08:50] the wait will be too long or classically they say raise your price [02:08:55] at that point, but you might not want to do that. And so you you’ll need another clinic. [02:09:00]

Zak Kara: Yeah, we possibly will. We need to expand which we’re in the process of doing. And uh, and [02:09:05] um, one thing I’ve definitely learned is that you’ll never get it right. You’ll always have a hygienist. You know, a [02:09:10] year and a half ago, we were nearly held to ransom by a couple of hygienists in our team, um, on the basis that my [02:09:15] diaries are too empty because this new hygienist has joined and it’s spread everything out way beyond what it used to be. [02:09:20] And I can’t sit here with white space. One of them left, the other one followed suit. We [02:09:25] had two new hygienists who replaced them. Suddenly their books are two filled again, and [02:09:30] you look and go, if you’ve just been patient for two months, the machinery was moving. [02:09:35] You were going to get a field diary. You were just impatient. But it’s amazing how, uh, a lot of people get [02:09:40] cannot see the bigger picture.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like you’re so generous with the knowledge. [02:09:45] You’re welcome. Um, and I think it makes sense to be generous with the knowledge. Because [02:09:50] if anyone thinks that the information itself is the key, it’s. It’s the execution [02:09:55] of the of the information. Um, but have you [02:10:00] thought about teaching?

Zak Kara: I love teaching you do teach? Uh, I used to be a clinical [02:10:05] teacher at Portsmouth. Uh, that was actually funny enough. Where I met Harry, uh, when he was a fifth year student, [02:10:10] coming down from King’s once a week on their rotation program. Their outreach program. They spend a week in Portsmouth. Uh, 1 [02:10:15] in 4, 1 in 4 weeks. Um, and I stopped doing that just before Covid, um, because [02:10:20] I just couldn’t dedicate the time to all these different things all at once. The expert witness work, the out of hours work and blah, blah, [02:10:25] blah. And but the thing that I really love now is seeing people’s eyes light up when [02:10:30] I talk about the things that we’re talking about now, now, which is actually systems, [02:10:35] workflows, processes, communication and how we get to the end. The [02:10:40] goal of what we set out to do in the first place, and redesigning or designing [02:10:45] and redesigning. Your own destiny in not in a fluffy, kind of [02:10:50] like, life coaching kind of way, but in a kind of if you’re getting the wrong people landing [02:10:55] in your treatment room on your chair. Have you asked yourself why? Because it’s [02:11:00] your responsibility to choose who lands there, and there’s nothing wrong with self-selecting [02:11:05] or pre-selecting out the wrong people.

Zak Kara: And I think a lot of dentists, because of their backstory. Usually in NHS [02:11:10] dentistry where you’re told you should just keep, um, you should just work, work, work, because [02:11:15] that’s how you get good, actually. You lose sight of the bigger picture. And if you want to choose [02:11:20] the right people, you can and you can do it in an unpretentious way. So these days, for example, in our [02:11:25] team, I’ve been badgered by our team too much now to the point at which, um, we have started [02:11:30] posting some stuff on our social media, and it turns out there’s a lot of people that resonates resonate with it. So, [02:11:35] um, Zach smiles stories on Instagram and we post regularly our reels of me doing something, [02:11:40] us doing something, and it’s as simple as, for example, hey, there was a video not [02:11:45] long ago that’s, I don’t know, six figures in terms of views. And it’s me talking somebody [02:11:50] through how this rubber dam works and why this blue protective shield matters. And it’s me literally [02:11:55] going to greet a client from our lounge and going, hi, I’m Zach, nice to meet you. You must be. And [02:12:00] somebody messaged me, slid into my DMs and said, who taught you to do that? And I went, what? [02:12:05] Greet somebody? And they went, no.

Zak Kara: How did you know what seat they were sitting [02:12:10] in? And I went, I knew because there’s actually a design behind that process, which is that our [02:12:15] front of house crew, no two seats, and every new client goes in that chair or in if [02:12:20] that’s occupied, the next chair. And we have a system behind the scenes of like they’re in seat number two. So if I’m [02:12:25] ever in doubt and I’m looking at the screen going, and there could be about four people waiting at front of house at the moment, I’ll message [02:12:30] and go, which seat number are they? Are they in please? And before you know it, I go and greet them warmly and go [02:12:35] and look in their eyes. And I shake their hand and I go, I’m Zach, nice to meet you today. Come on down. It’s the first time you’ve come to the clinic today, [02:12:40] isn’t it? And they usually soften up, but it turns out people don’t seem to have that in their patter [02:12:45] or their daily thinking. And that’s the fun bit when people message and go, oh, there [02:12:50] is a different way to do this, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s nice man. It’s nice, nice [02:12:55] to hear it. So many different nuggets, um, from someone who’s only three years [02:13:00] in man like to. So I see the future as being very, very bright. Thank [02:13:05] you. Um, but you really, you owe it. You owe it to yourself to do more, I think. Do you think? Yeah. [02:13:10] Do you think we.

Zak Kara: Should put together a course?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah, we’ll do everyone.

Zak Kara: Everyone wants a course these days, right? They all have [02:13:15] an academy. How many academies now?

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing wrong with it, man. There’s nothing wrong with it, dude. I mean, if you remember, you [02:13:20] don’t remember. It was before your time. You qualified in 2009? Yeah, [02:13:25] when I qualified. Yeah. There was nothing. Yeah. You literally had to go [02:13:30] to America to to get education. Nothing existed. And I hear that whine of too many [02:13:35] courses and and and so on. Yeah. And I don’t know, people talk about [02:13:40] people wanting to be teachers two years out of dental school and there is that. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, [02:13:45] I see, um, students, I’m following some students. I went to Bdsa. [02:13:50] Yeah, I was following them. Been they’ve got a fantastic page is [02:13:55] tutoring people on how to get to dental school. Um, as you know, has been [02:14:00] posting since, since the first year. And then we get people on mini smile [02:14:05] makeover sometime. Still don’t have Instagram, uh, where they’re on Instagram, but [02:14:10] they’re not. There’s no dental Instagram. Um, they don’t have loops, you [02:14:15] know, and and so, you know, I rather than sneering at that, all that teaching [02:14:20] side, I’d at least say that guy’s involved. And you know what [02:14:25] I was saying about people who listen. Yeah, you have to listen to a dental podcast, [02:14:30] man. There’s there’s so many different things you could watch or listen to. Yeah, it’s true, but [02:14:35] if you’re if you’re on your way to your practice or on your way back from your practice, you’re listening to a dental podcast, right? Yeah. Yeah, [02:14:40] yeah. That that shows the degree of.

Zak Kara: Interest.

Payman Langroudi: Interest in your job. Right.

Zak Kara: Interest in [02:14:45] and wanting to better yourself and knowing what else is out there. And, you know, to be fair, you know, I’m not, um, entirely [02:14:50] sneering at that type of approach. The main thing on my mind is, um, I wouldn’t [02:14:55] it would if I was going to do something on those lines. I do feel I would owe it to our team as much as anything [02:15:00] else to have this stuff out there, because I do know I can see it in their eyes. There’s a team they love to be [02:15:05] able to share the four handed stuff that we think is normal every day, but a new clinician joins and they’re like, they have no idea [02:15:10] what to do. And we’re like, yes, they won’t know what to do because this is not normal, right. But that goes so [02:15:15] hand in hand with some of the other stuff we’ve mentioned and the workflows and the communication and stuff. It just synchronises [02:15:20] so well and that we’d love to be able to do that kind of thing. I just wouldn’t want to be one of so many that [02:15:25] try to do certain things. And and it’s having a platform to do it. Um, yeah. Maybe [02:15:30] if you are listening to this and you fancy the idea of it, then, uh, give me some encouragement, I don’t mind. Yeah, you should do it.

Payman Langroudi: You [02:15:35] should. So honestly, I’m not a dentist anymore, but I if I was, I [02:15:40] had 100% invest in that. Yeah. Thanks. Because because a lot of it, it sounds like [02:15:45] hocus pocus. Like how the. Oh, do you do that?

Zak Kara: You know there’s a way to integrate. No, I know, I know the best thing. Now, [02:15:50] we’ve actually got proof in the pudding. It’s not just my ideas in my brain. We’ve done it. It works. Here’s how [02:15:55] the system works. But you kind of need to ascribe to the whole system, and you kind of need to know what’s part of my patchwork [02:16:00] quilt. Because as you mentioned, when you graduated, when I was at dental school, we didn’t have anything either. [02:16:05] The internet was very slow. Uh, we had Paddy Lunn’s book. I remember picking up Paddy Lunn’s book. Remember [02:16:10] him? Yeah. It’s amazing what a heart behind Paddy Lunn’s book. Literally the most black and white book you can ever [02:16:15] see. Um, Australian dentists. Um, now, no doubt retired. Um, absolutely [02:16:20] brilliant. There’s gold in there really is. Absolutely. And it becomes part of that whole philosophy. So sometimes the [02:16:25] most old school things, the things that seem outdated are actually it’s. Yeah, it’s uh, it [02:16:30] should become part of everyone’s repertoire.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure, man. I’m going to end with the [02:16:35] the usual final, final questions. Yeah. Fantasy [02:16:40] dinner party.

Zak Kara: You know, I’ve pondered this already. I’ll come out and say it [02:16:45] straight away. My roots are in music, proper music. So it would be [02:16:50] Freddie Mercury, Prince and Michael Jackson. I know that’s cringe.

Payman Langroudi: And Michael Jackson. [02:16:55]

Zak Kara: And Michael Jackson. How could it be Prince and say that these days I know I’m not Prince [02:17:00] Andrew.

Payman Langroudi: As a massive Prince fan, I just object to [02:17:05] Prince and Michael Jackson.

Zak Kara: I just want to fight.

Payman Langroudi: All Michael Jackson. No, no, no, I want a fight.

Zak Kara: I would I would just be like, [02:17:10] right, why don’t you guys, why don’t you get on? And I’d want Freddie Mercury to just sit [02:17:15] there and drink wine all night because.

Payman Langroudi: Because there was no Billie Jean and there was no kid. [02:17:20] There was no one who said, beat it. There was none of that happened. None of that happened.

Zak Kara: That’s [02:17:25] why he is controversial. This is exactly why I suggested it. So those are my three for the dinner party. And also, [02:17:30] worst case scenario, we just put YouTube music on and have a frigging great night.

Payman Langroudi: Some record story like [02:17:35] record shop stories. It must be interesting having a record shop. Do you get like, what do you get?

Zak Kara: It’s part of [02:17:40] you don’t get anything. You get told off by your dad when you’re nicking the CDs of the weekend and recording them.

Payman Langroudi: You [02:17:45] know, the customers you get like DJ types, you get what happens.

Zak Kara: At that time, it was record collector [02:17:50] types. It was like old school fellas with a beard and long hair. And they’d come in and [02:17:55] they’d. You’d see the same names and faces every weekend. I’d be there on a Saturday or a Sunday, and that had a few little [02:18:00] side gigs of selling things like, uh, you know, at that point they had to get a £10 top up voucher for Orange Mobile [02:18:05] or whatever. So I used to get paid in top up vouchers. Okay. And uh, some of them, some of my, [02:18:10] uh, my roots of like, why I, why I like talking to people must come from the record shop. Yeah. So I’d [02:18:15] see the same names of the faces. And I used to have this little party trick where I would just know where that record [02:18:20] is, and I’d be able to go to the shelf, and I’d literally be barely tall enough to see it, and I’d go, this [02:18:25] one, LED Zeppelin two. Uh, and I’d know it by the record cover. So weirdly, now [02:18:30] when people say things like, uh, somebody mentioned R.E.M.

Zak Kara: the other day and R.E.M. had an album called automatic [02:18:35] for the people. Amazing album, right? Great album. And I picked it up and I just know that record [02:18:40] sleeve. I know that cover because it’s just black and white. Yeah, it’s embedded in me. So some of those [02:18:45] things are part of my tapestry for sure. And, uh, you look back now and you’re like, why do I like [02:18:50] getting to know my patients and clients every visit? It must be rooted in that. It’s rooted in [02:18:55] the conversations I had with people every week, and I’d find out about their family and oh, when are you buying that? [02:19:00] And I used to be the cheeky little kid, because my dad used to love the fact that I loved the chat, and I’d be that one who [02:19:05] goes, so when are you buying the the the, uh, the stack. So we used to have little stacks together of [02:19:10] like, back catalogues. So like the Queen back catalogue, you buy a whole stack, you package it together. Massive. Good deal [02:19:15] that when you buy the queen stack.

Payman Langroudi: You had a bit of a lateral thinker. [02:19:20] Anyway, to do a record shop, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s a kind of a niche thing to do. Yeah. I had a [02:19:25] friend whose dad had a record shop too, and he’s just have fun there. I’ll tell you some fun. [02:19:30]

Zak Kara: Fun taught me something. It taught me diversification because actually at that point wasn’t trendy [02:19:35] in the 90s. Well, it was in the 80s, and it was in the early 90s recession hit. Um, John [02:19:40] Major has got a lot to blame for that. And as a result of that, things went very Pete Tong for [02:19:45] wreck. Uh, not just record shops, but retail in general. Yeah. And at the same time, CDs [02:19:50] were beginning to take over and tapes were getting a little bit outdated. Yeah. And, um, Sainsbury’s over the road. [02:19:55] No, in fact, at one point it was Safeway over the road, literally over the road from the shop started selling [02:20:00] CDs and it was like a price war, literally £9.73 for a CD. And [02:20:05] then they used to do it £9.23 and that’d be like, that’s below cost, what am I gonna do? And he used to go [02:20:10] and ask me to go over the road and price shop for him and go, how much are they selling it for? And they’d come back and say, [02:20:15] essentially, in the mid 90s, dad realised that he had to diversify the business and he took some of it online. [02:20:20] And so he had a, the first ever, uh, first ever website he had was created by my dad and I on, [02:20:25] uh, a really rubbish old PC, windows 3.1, uh, or maybe an [02:20:30] old school Pentium, whatever it was. And, uh, we created a website and essentially took his record [02:20:35] player needle business online. Wow. And dad ended up leaving the business as [02:20:40] a physical entity. And when we’d gone to uni about 2005 and he carried on just making his [02:20:45] little trickle along income. Home with a stack full of record playing needles [02:20:50] that were all.

Payman Langroudi: The record players have totally come back in.

Zak Kara: Yeah, now. Yeah, they come full circle. But [02:20:55] dad’s had enough of business and he hated customers, always complaining every five minutes and sending them back, and [02:21:00] he’d go, uh, um. Doherty, 40, Murray, Missouri. [02:21:05] And they sent it back, meaning they made a complete mess of my products. Oh, I see they made [02:21:10] cucumber of it, which means they made cucumbers out of my product and they returned it back to me.

Zak Kara: Yeah, [02:21:15] that’s my dad.

Zak Kara: So, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now [02:21:20] I feel a bit sad. I didn’t go more into your backstory, but. But you’ve given so many pearls that it’s [02:21:25] not have to worry. Let’s, let’s let’s go with the final question. Yeah. You [02:21:30] on your deathbed, surrounded by friends and family. Anyone who’s [02:21:35] special to you. Yep. And you’re going to offer them three [02:21:40] pieces of advice. What would they be?

Zak Kara: I [02:21:45] would tell them that for the rest of your own days. If you keep [02:21:50] doing what you’re doing, you’re going to keep getting what you’re getting. If you keep doing [02:21:55] what you’re doing, you’re going to keep getting what you’re getting. And if you want to do better [02:22:00] every day and it’s bothering you, you’ve got to do something different. So that probably [02:22:05] is rooted in the diversification and things we were just talking about, I tell them. I [02:22:10] really did do my best because [02:22:15] I always wanted to be better myself. Um, so I hope I’m looked [02:22:20] back, um, at fondly, um, as a person and somebody who [02:22:25] thirdly, would, you know, be generous, be generous with your time, because, [02:22:30] you know, in my first something I regret, uh, my first eight years out of university, I spent two, two [02:22:35] weeks every year with bridge to aid in East Africa because I always believed in giving something back to East Africa. [02:22:40] Life took over, Covid took over the business, and so on and so on. But it’s something I will go full circle and do, [02:22:45] because the heart you receive from somebody who’s got nothing, and the amount of generosity you [02:22:50] get from somebody who’s got nothing, that’s real generosity to me. And if you can dedicate your own time [02:22:55] to being generous and receiving in return, um, then that’s those are some of the [02:23:00] most special moments of my life. And, um, hopefully they, uh, I have more opportunities to do just that [02:23:05] and again in the future.

Zak Kara: Beautiful man. Really beautiful. Thank [02:23:10] you so much for.

Payman Langroudi: Doing this, dude. I really enjoyed it very, very much.

Zak Kara: Thank you very much for having me.

Intro Voice: This [02:23:15] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get [02:23:20] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:23:25] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [02:23:30]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in [02:23:35] for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [02:23:40] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give [02:23:45] us a.

Payman Langroudi: Six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber [02:23:50] driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys. Bye.

 

Emma Mashall: A place that no one touches. When was the last time you sat there and touched the backs of your knees intentionally? The reason [00:00:05] being is because we’ve got loads of lymph nodes in the backs of the knees, and the lymph is literally all it’s needed [00:00:10] to work well is a bit of movement and a bit of touch. That’s it. And it just shows you [00:00:15] playing and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And your sort of guiding. We’re gonna have.

Rhona Eskander: To try it. We are going to try it.

Intro Voice: This [00:00:20] is mind movers moving [00:00:25] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for Dental [00:00:30] professionals. Your hosts Rhona Eskander and [00:00:35] Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Emma, welcome [00:00:40] to an episode of Mind Movers, the mental health podcast for dentists. This [00:00:45] is season two and we have the incredible Emma marshall. Emma is the founder [00:00:50] and CEO of Movement is Medicine, and when I first met Emma, it was through a friend and I [00:00:55] was drawn to her incredibly vibrant personality, her healing soul. [00:01:00] And we continue to stay in touch. And she inspired me because she recognised this huge gap in the market [00:01:05] for movement as a method of healing. I’m not talking just about exercise, but moving [00:01:10] your body to music, moving your body in any place that you’re at, not necessarily [00:01:15] being in a rave or at a party with people, and certainly not needing substances to fuel your [00:01:20] desire to move your body. She’s also been a TEDx speaker. She’s been at the Happy [00:01:25] Place Festival, which I was also at and has gone to, gone on to do incredible things. And [00:01:30] I think what’s really exciting is that she’s not gone on to do incredible things with what I call the woo woo [00:01:35] culture, but also the corporate society, because she’s recognised as well that people should have [00:01:40] access to healing and not be boxed up into just being part of a certain type of industry. [00:01:45] So welcome, Emma. Oh, thanks for having me.

Emma Mashall: What a lovely intro. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Thanks. [00:01:50] So, Emma, the reason why I found you so inspiring and I think a lot [00:01:55] of people have is because, you know, you had a series of unfortunate events that had happened to you, which [00:02:00] led you to where you are. So let’s start from the beginning. What are you were doing before? Movement is medicine [00:02:05] and how it led you to where you are today.

Emma Mashall: Yeah, so I had a really [00:02:10] successful career in the music industry. Um, and everything was going [00:02:15] great. You know, I was going from one kind of space in the industry to the other, just figuring out my path [00:02:20] in my 20s. But in 2015, I [00:02:25] had like a very serious health year where there was just all these different situations [00:02:30] that happened back to back. Um, and it wasn’t just like, oh, I had the flu. It was like I was hospitalised [00:02:35] with some serious conditions. And so one of them, I had to have a catheter [00:02:40] because my kidneys weren’t functioning properly. And then I got tripped over in the street. [00:02:45] I fractured my arm. And I was then diagnosed with like, a very serious, um, [00:02:50] nervous system disease, which, like, was all to do with the brain firing off the wrong [00:02:55] signals in regards to pain. So I couldn’t move the left side of my body. And it was [00:03:00] really, really serious for quite a long time. Um, I was also told with that one [00:03:05] that there was no kind of cure that would be my life. And I was like, nah, I don’t believe that. [00:03:10] Um, but then after that, I had to have my appendix out, and this was all in the space of six months. [00:03:15] So at that point I went to a GP and I was just like, there’s something wrong with me, [00:03:20] you know, I’m only 25, so why is my body not working properly? [00:03:25] And the GP kind of just was giving me the fobbed off of just like, oh, you’re probably a bit depressed.

Emma Mashall: And I was a bit [00:03:30] like, well, I think there’s more to it than that. And that’s when I started to look into a more holistic [00:03:35] way of understanding health. So started to look at nutrition. I started to look at my lifestyle. [00:03:40] I had burnt myself out like I just got into the music industry at 23, like full [00:03:45] time. Before that, I was doing bits and pieces and I just was doing so many jobs. I wasn’t [00:03:50] sleeping properly, I my diet was poor, and there was so many aspects of my [00:03:55] lifestyle that I can understand why that impacted on my health. Now that obviously I reflected on it and when [00:04:00] we were in those situations. It affects our nervous system, it affects our immune system, it affects our endocrine system. So [00:04:05] I really started to observe the ways in which my body was working and how it wasn’t, and changed [00:04:10] a lot, but I also felt like I never fully recovered. Uh, there was always this kind [00:04:15] of like missing piece of the jigsaw. And then in 2018, I had [00:04:20] to have an operation. It was like suddenly I couldn’t have avoided and it went wrong, and [00:04:25] I was put on medication because I thought I was going to go into sepsis and there was a whole thing. [00:04:30] And after that, my body just started shut down. It just gave up, and [00:04:35] I got sicker and sicker, and I got a diagnosis of clinical PTSD.

Emma Mashall: And then it [00:04:40] went from there where the physical symptoms got so extreme, um, that I went to functional [00:04:45] medicine. So I looked at functional medicine rather than the NHS. The NHS weren’t being particularly helpful. [00:04:50] And I was told, oh, we think you’ve got Lyme disease, or we think you’ve been poisoned by a black mould. [00:04:55] And then I went to this hospital in Mexico, raised money and had some really [00:05:00] serious treatment over there, and it was really interesting. What kind of treatment? Well, so I had ozone [00:05:05] therapy where they take your blood out and then put it back in when it’s been oxygenated. And then I also had [00:05:10] something called hyperthermia where they put you to sleep and they basically comatose you for like, [00:05:15] um, I think it’s around ten hours and they basically heat your body up really slowly to a [00:05:20] temperature of 109 degrees, and they hold you there for as long as possible to kill off any [00:05:25] kind of infections that you’ve got. Because that’s the problem, is that when I got to this hospital, I didn’t have Lyme. [00:05:30] I did have some sort of, you know, toxin issue. But the problem was, is that my immune system wasn’t working and [00:05:35] my nervous system wasn’t working. And my endocrine system. Wasn’t working, so I had some infections [00:05:40] that my body couldn’t fight off bacterial and viral. And then, yeah, they [00:05:45] just put me through this really serious treatment. But unfortunately the treatment then resulted in me not being able to [00:05:50] walk.

Emma Mashall: So the knock on effects were huge. And then from there I started to have seizures. [00:05:55] And so it was just this kind of like getting worse and worse and worse. But one of the interesting things that I will [00:06:00] mention, because I’m talking to dentists, is that one of the things that they have at this hospital is a bio [00:06:05] dentist, okay. And the reason being is because they were checking people’s teeth, they checked all of my teeth and [00:06:10] they were looking for things like fillings, silver fillings and that kind of thing to look for toxin overload. [00:06:15] And I just found that really interesting because I was just like, oh, okay, cool. There’s there’s a whole spectrum of health here that [00:06:20] like, we just I wouldn’t know about this. I had no idea. So we started to just again open me up. But I [00:06:25] was seriously ill at this point with no kind of resolution and no cure, because that’s what I think we look for [00:06:30] when we’re ill is like, I need the cure. And there wasn’t a clear path. It was just like, we’re going to try this and we’re [00:06:35] going to try that and blah, blah, blah. And I basically ended up carrying on different treatments under like functional medicine [00:06:40] for the next year with no improvements. It just got worse and worse [00:06:45] and worse. And by this point, my mental health was absolutely appalling, like serious [00:06:50] PTSD and just yeah, no real will to live, to be honest. And [00:06:55] it got to a point where I met somebody and she just kind of transformed my understanding of health, [00:07:00] where she was like, you have been through so much trauma, but it’s [00:07:05] been very physical.

Emma Mashall: Um, you know, we have different types of trauma and yours has been extremely physical. [00:07:10] Your body is going to be holding on to those physical experiences because trauma is held [00:07:15] in the body. So you need to start understanding how to work with your body and your nervous system to release [00:07:20] this stuff. And it just was like thing. And I was like, okay, [00:07:25] this makes sense. So I dove into the research around the nervous system and [00:07:30] neuroscience, the mind body connection and how everything is connected and, you know, the gut brain connection [00:07:35] and all these different connections that we we have and how the nervous system impacts your immune system and your endocrine [00:07:40] system. And I was like, okay, this is all starting to make a lot more sense. But this is now pandemic [00:07:45] time. So there’s no resource and no support. I should have 100% have [00:07:50] had at least a therapist and also some physio, because when I couldn’t walk, it affected my legs [00:07:55] and I had nothing. So I was like, I woke up one day and I just said to myself, like, [00:08:00] you’ve got to start moving. And the only thing that I felt like I could do was [00:08:05] dance. And I just promised myself like one song a day come from the music industry, where I was [00:08:10] out all the time.

Emma Mashall: I had a life style that incorporated dance. Most days. I [00:08:15] hadn’t done this. I hadn’t had fun like this in a really long time. So I just started putting on tunes and moving [00:08:20] my body, and I started to feel a difference, and I started to see improvements in both [00:08:25] my physical health, my legs, and also in the way that my anxiety was and PTSD symptoms. [00:08:30] And I was just like, okay. So again, furthered the research. And I looked specifically not just around [00:08:35] stress and trauma in the body. I looked at dance and movement and even rhythm [00:08:40] and certain types of tempos and sound and all that kind of stuff. And I just basically [00:08:45] started to piece together all these different aspects. And then at the end of 2020, [00:08:50] I decided that London was a bit too much for me, pandemic wise. I’d just been through two [00:08:55] full years of illness. I was like, I can’t do a whole nother year of this. So I left and I went back to Mexico [00:09:00] because Mexico was quite open, so went back to Mexico and used the time [00:09:05] to not only recover fully, but also study. So I studied how [00:09:10] indigenous tribes and communities utilise dance and music [00:09:15] all the time. And if you look at anywhere that’s got indigenous culture and that spans [00:09:20] across so many different continents, every single aspect of that culture has [00:09:25] music and dance incorporated. And we in the West don’t particularly utilise [00:09:30] it like that. It’s very much based around hedonism. So when we go out it’s like, oh, have a drink [00:09:35] and we’ll just yeah, we’ll go out, have a drink and I’ll listen to this.

Emma Mashall: Um, I’ll go to this festival or listen to this concert [00:09:40] or whatever. It’s always based around hedonism. And in other cultures that’s not necessarily [00:09:45] the case. And I just was like, okay, cool. Well, we need to do something here with this because [00:09:50] the science is saying this. The science is saying that dance is extremely helpful and [00:09:55] the nervous system and etc., etc., the neuroscience. But also we’ve just kind of [00:10:00] forgotten this very ancient healing practice. So I [00:10:05] put something together as a body of work, um, utilising the science in [00:10:10] particular. And this is where I really didn’t want to waste time, but also like make [00:10:15] it as a trust me bro situation, which is a lot of wellness. [00:10:20] It is that there’s no there’s no data, there’s no science, there’s no studies. And [00:10:25] I think that there is a place for science, and there’s also a place for feeling they both [00:10:30] coexist. And that’s what I wanted to create is something that I can say. This is why it works. And [00:10:35] now we’re going to do it and you’re going to feel it. And that’s what I’ve managed to create. And people have really, [00:10:40] really taken to it and it’s taken off and it’s done really, really well. And and it helps people [00:10:45] with everything. But the main thing that it kind of helps people with, most importantly is just releasing stress. [00:10:50] So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Such a fascinating story, like so many things to say on that. And [00:10:55] like one of the things that I want to touch upon because I think it’s really interesting and I want your views on this, [00:11:00] is that about alternative medicine? Because we work in a profession where we’re very much [00:11:05] taught traditional medicine, you know, um, there is a diagnosis to your symptoms [00:11:10] and we don’t look outside the body. Um, there’s also been recently in the press [00:11:15] a lot around amalgam fillings and amalgam fillings. We’re one of the last countries [00:11:20] now to basically put a stop to it. And obviously a lot of dentists studies have basically [00:11:25] shown that actually they don’t cause any harm in your body, and they can cause more harm [00:11:30] if you remove it in an unsafe way. So like the actual like vapour can get inhaled, etc.. So [00:11:35] you have to use something called the rubber dam. Or some dentists use like a kind of extractor machine, etc.. And [00:11:40] I think now there’s been this massive emergence of like biological dentists and they’re actually challenging [00:11:45] the status quo and challenging the system. And as you know, she actually saw one [00:11:50] of my dentists. He sort of brands himself as a biological dentist, and he very much believes [00:11:55] in stuff. So he does like ozone. He removes the amalgam with like an amalgam extractor. You know, Doctor Richard, [00:12:00] he does like vitamin infusions as part of like when he does like his implant treatments and stuff like [00:12:05] that. And I have to say that, like, I still believe traditional medicine [00:12:10] is needed. Totally. And I think, you know, I had a friend of mine that also was in Mexico and [00:12:15] she was like, oh, I’ve got a wisdom tooth pain. And I tried putting cloves on it and it didn’t get better. [00:12:20] And obviously she did need antibiotics. But I do think it’s the integration of, you know, [00:12:25] that functional medicine with modern day medicine, which is really important. What’s your thoughts on it? [00:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult one. Tell me, because look, the you [00:12:35] can make a good or bad story up about anything. Right. Because what’s the alternative to amalgam [00:12:40] encompass it. Right. It’s a plastic, you know, plastics in your [00:12:45] mouth all the time. The free plastics that you get from the bonds, you can make a bad story up about that. [00:12:50] Do you know you can you can do research and find out how much problems that causes. I [00:12:55] mean, I’m interested in in why you thought that dance [00:13:00] was the answer. When, you know, doctors are telling you, you know. [00:13:05]

Rhona Eskander: Otherwise. But I think but I think it’s the functional piece as well that helped her because that led her [00:13:10] to people that said to her, like, you know, it starts from within. Like if you read books like, [00:13:15] I’m sure we’ve discussed this, the body keeps the score or the body says, no, it’s all [00:13:20] about that stuff. Because all of these physical diseases. Six months ago, I slipped my disc. [00:13:25] He knows I was in here. I tried to ignore it. It was 100% because of what was going on physically, mentally [00:13:30] in my mind. Like, yeah, okay, fine. I actually physically fell in the gym, but my mind was [00:13:35] somewhere else and all this stress had been building up and it was like crash. Totally. And I was like, that’s not [00:13:40] a coincidence that I slipped my disc, you know? So I think that, like, you know, you understanding that [00:13:45] is so important. And for me, I’m hearing that like the movement was freedom. [00:13:50] Yeah. But do you think then as well there’s like something that you’re doing [00:13:55] can be integrated into mainstream medicine.

Emma Mashall: Well yes. I [00:14:00] would love to be able to have this available on the [00:14:05] NHS. The red tape however, who knows. You know, [00:14:10] we will need to get it to a point of clinical trials, um, which is doable [00:14:15] with the right backing and with the right funding. But clinical trials cost money. But that’s when we’ll be able [00:14:20] to see the different chemical releases, you know, during a session for each person, the [00:14:25] way that the brainwaves move, etc.. Because I’ve got my theories on it. I know what I believe [00:14:30] makes sense for this work. And also I have done so much research [00:14:35] now, um, I just don’t have the piece of paper. However, [00:14:40] I’m also not ignorant to the fact that the pieces of paper are important. Um, and [00:14:45] so I partnered with a neuroscientist on this work who has, you know, [00:14:50] 15 years in chronic pain. And she she works specifically on understanding the mind body [00:14:55] connection. And she’s a really interesting person. But the way in which she came to me, I [00:15:00] mean, it was only from God at this point. Like she, um, did my method [00:15:05] for six months. So she’d been following my journey. She’d been following me online. I put this out when I first started. [00:15:10] It was a case study. It was a theory. It was like, I believe this works. It’s worked for me. But I can’t charge people for [00:15:15] this because I don’t, you know, I need to see if it works for other people. So I did it for free and then I upped [00:15:20] it to donations. But people were just coming for free. I was teaching it five times a week on zoom. She [00:15:25] was one of those people. She did it for six months. I don’t know who people are when [00:15:30] they come.

Emma Mashall: Just similarly to if you go to a gym class, you don’t know who people [00:15:35] are in that gym class, what they do, etc. we don’t. Talk about that. You’re there to move and then you leave. So similar concept [00:15:40] with this. So when she told me, um, no sorry. I then [00:15:45] basically put a call out to medical professionals via Instagram because I was like, we’re [00:15:50] starting to get some good traction here. Like there’s press coming. I want to make sure that I’ve, you [00:15:55] know, I’m not a bit delusional, and I want to have some medical professionals that really do believe [00:16:00] in what I’m talking about. So I asked people, I had pharmacologists get in touch, I had therapists, I had doctors, [00:16:05] I had various types of people get in touch and say, yeah, if you want to put my name on your kind of backing, then I’m, I’m [00:16:10] for it. And she was one of those people. And so when I read the email and it said neuroscientist, [00:16:15] I was like, oh my goodness. Like, this is what I need to do. I need to partner with this [00:16:20] neuroscientist. And only ten minutes before, I’d been having a conversation with my assistant [00:16:25] at the time to say to her, I need to find a neuroscientist to back this body of work. Like, for sure, [00:16:30] ten minutes later, Dawn shows up. So she’s written out from a neuroscientific perspective [00:16:35] what happens in a session and therefore what she believes happens, especially [00:16:40] even in regards to chemical release. You know, acetylcholine and and serotonin release [00:16:45] and even dopamine and understanding those kind of chemicals. Now, to have the actual proof that that works we would need [00:16:50] to go clinical. And that’s just financial at this point.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a few things about what you’re saying. [00:16:55] I mean, in in the scientific world, often the breakthrough happens [00:17:00] 20 years before. Totally the general sort of acceptance of it. [00:17:05] Because you do a clinical trial, no one’s still going to accept that 100%. Yeah. You need multi-center [00:17:10] clinical trials from all over the world with blind clinical trials and the other. But, um, [00:17:15] but if you’re a 100% sure of it within yourself, then the [00:17:20] challenge to spreading this story to me is more a marketing challenge [00:17:25] than a than a clinical one 100%.

Emma Mashall: Because like I said before, it was about me making [00:17:30] sure that it wasn’t just working on me. Right. And then so when I started to see that it was working on people with diagnoses [00:17:35] from autoimmune to cancer to.

Payman Langroudi: Exercise, right. I mean, of course people [00:17:40] accept exercise is good for you. Yeah. And this is exercise, right?

Emma Mashall: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But but but I did I [00:17:45] did your Ted as as in your Ted talk I like did you get.

Rhona Eskander: Up and do it. He [00:17:50] messaged me going like can we do the movement tomorrow? I was like, sure it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was like midnight last [00:17:55] night. What I looked.

Rhona Eskander: Like, he’s like dancing.

Payman Langroudi: But but the you know, the thing that was for me was [00:18:00] amazing about it was dancing for me doesn’t come naturally at all. I mean, you come from a music background [00:18:05] for me. Yeah. I was a raver in the 90s. Yeah. Then you are. But the Closing [00:18:10] your Eyes piece. Yeah. Was really the important thing. Where he just free? Yeah. Now some people can just [00:18:15] be free with their eyes open. I can’t, even if there’s no one in the room. I just find this [00:18:20] awkward, you know? But the sort of the the almost the meditation [00:18:25] part of it. Yes. Was really. Tell me about that. The link from the actual exercise to the mind. [00:18:30]

Emma Mashall: So there’s two components to the method. And the reason why it works is the following. Your [00:18:35] peripheral nervous system is essentially a sensory and motor [00:18:40] system. So it’s governed by sensors and movement. And that’s essentially [00:18:45] what keeps us alive as well. And it also allows us to create a perception of the world. So [00:18:50] when we do the method and the reason that we close the eyes is because as soon as [00:18:55] you close your eyes, your other senses heighten, and the senses that we’re looking for to heighten [00:19:00] are sound and also touch. And so when we heighten those other senses, [00:19:05] your internal world is going to tell you where you’re feeling uncomfortable, perhaps [00:19:10] have tension, maybe you’re holding on to something emotional. And just by creating [00:19:15] the awareness, you can then move it. And the key aspect as to why this works. So you just said [00:19:20] you’re a raver in the 90s, then you can dance because we’re not doing choreography. [00:19:25] If you put me into a dance class right now, I’d be the worst person in there. I can’t be told how to move [00:19:30] and but I can move. I have rhythm that is the key component to this. [00:19:35] It’s allowing people to go back into their natural instinct, which is finding the rhythm. And [00:19:40] you.

Rhona Eskander: Think everyone has.

Emma Mashall: That? Yeah, they’ve done studies on babies. So there’s loads of studies on babies. [00:19:45] Um, to.

Payman Langroudi: The indigenous.

Emma Mashall: Thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, totally. Almost every single [00:19:50] one, almost every single, every single sort of culture has it exactly dances.

Emma Mashall: It’s [00:19:55] natural. And what we do is, you know, the ego is the stories, right? The [00:20:00] ego is, oh, I look stupid and oh, no, I can’t dance. And all these, all the stories. If you just [00:20:05] look at a baby, that baby will just move to music without any care in the world.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing when you see [00:20:10] that.

Emma Mashall: And that is what we have naturally inbuilt into us, but [00:20:15] we’ve basically forgotten it because we’re so in our heads. So the methodology is so centred [00:20:20] around getting people back into their natural rhythm, and when you’re in your natural rhythm, [00:20:25] you’re going to then move your body naturally without any kind of, [00:20:30] um, block or resistance. And that in turn, is going to allow you to process [00:20:35] what is really going on in your mind, because remember. The body is essentially the reflection of your subconscious. [00:20:40] That’s really what they’ve discovered. That’s the mind body connection. That’s also where we use the word psychosomatic. [00:20:45] You know, when somebody comes and presents with all these symptoms and doctors are like, well, there’s nothing wrong with you. It’s like [00:20:50] it’s in the mind, but it doesn’t mean it’s not physically happening.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, and I hate that. That’s why I talk about medical [00:20:55] gaslighting so often. Like where and talk Payman about this, where, as I said, they can’t [00:21:00] see the physical symptoms. They’re like, you’re fine. It’s in your head, you know, and you [00:21:05] know, we had a podcast recently where someone said, you know about that expression as well. Like, I was [00:21:10] in my head, you know, like it’s it’s it’s, you know, it’s such a profound, uh, [00:21:15] statement. And I think the indigenous piece, like you said. And when will you go? Because I spend a lot of time [00:21:20] in South America and these countries, and I find it really healing, being around indigenous people that really connect [00:21:25] with their own culture. I recently went to a retreat in Costa Rica, um, [00:21:30] in a place called Brave Earth. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s like a really healing ground. They do a lot of ceremonies there, but we were there [00:21:35] for a retreat. I was with my partner, and there, um, it was called Activating [00:21:40] the Voice, which is the different but so similar to what you’re doing. So it wasn’t necessarily so. [00:21:45] It was about activating your voice because they were like singing lessons. And by the way, I’m totally tone deaf. I like cannot sing. [00:21:50] But it was also about activating your voice and sort of like finding your voice and like difficult situations. But [00:21:55] what I found really fascinating is one of the exercises of the day was think of [00:22:00] a song that you know from your childhood, which is related to your like, culture. [00:22:05]

Rhona Eskander: So I suppose like an Iranian, whatever for you? Like Egyptian? I couldn’t think of one [00:22:10] song. And a lot of the South American people did like, think of some [00:22:15] songs. And then there was one guy who was actually from like a little place near Cuba, and [00:22:20] he remembered a song and he actually googled what the song was. And he they had been singing as a childhood. [00:22:25] And in the song, um, it was actually he had no idea, but it was linked to [00:22:30] the ancestors that were shipped over from the slave trade. And as part [00:22:35] of torment, they had to pick up like a really hot stone and pass it around. And [00:22:40] if they dropped it, they’d get shot. And this is the slaves. And he got really emotional because as a child, [00:22:45] when he sang it, he didn’t know it was a bit like ring a ring o roses, [00:22:50] a pocketful of yeah, like it’s about the plague. Do you see what I mean? And like these things, like [00:22:55] born out of something. But what I’m trying to say is there’s such depth in, as I said, like these songs [00:23:00] and these movements that relate to ancestors, which is actually so important, like to who we are [00:23:05] now, 100%.

Emma Mashall: I mean, the drum is the most instrument in the world. [00:23:10] It falls across every culture because it was used in war. And so when we were all [00:23:15] well, when the British were out colonies and everything, you know, drum [00:23:20] was as part of every single war that existed. So when we’re talking about ancestral, [00:23:25] we do recognise the drum. And also they’ve linked the drum as well to, to our heartbeat. [00:23:30] So the music that we play in movement is medicine. I’ve basically just [00:23:35] modernised this concept where we used house music, we used drum and bass, we [00:23:40] used reggae, we used music that has got percussion. Um, because that is the easiest [00:23:45] way to connect people back into their body. It’s that simple. Because of the percussion is such [00:23:50] a felt instrument. Um, whereas if you’re listening to, um, [00:23:55] I don’t know, even like a saxophone, it’s much more emotive, but it’s you feel it in a different [00:24:00] kind of way. It’s not necessarily going to affect the way your body is moving. Um, so [00:24:05] with that in mind, like it’s all just been about like kind of, yeah, modernising this work [00:24:10] as best as possible because there’s no doubt in my mind it works. There’s just no doubt [00:24:15] in my mind. This is so inherently in every single person. It’s just about [00:24:20] activating it for them in a slightly different capacity. And like you say, the marketing and [00:24:25] the language. Like when I first started doing this, I was using words like trauma and healing, [00:24:30] and I don’t use any of that anymore because I don’t think it attracts [00:24:35] as many people. When you use that language. It’s not to say that and you.

Rhona Eskander: Think it [00:24:40] does, don’t you.

Emma Mashall: Think it does? Yeah, but it doesn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Because when you’ve done your own work and I think [00:24:45] it’s a thing when you’ve done your own work, you’re like, I’m going to attract the same people that want to be healed just.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. [00:24:50] Yeah. These words have become normalised to me. Yeah. See, a year ago, a [00:24:55] year ago, you used to talk about trauma and all that. Like, what the hell are you talking?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. And he was like, babes, you’re so damaged. I [00:25:00] was like, I’m not. He literally like damaged goods. I’m like, I’m not. Because, like, [00:25:05] I’m like. Because you think EMS. And like, that’s why we connected. It’s like. Because when you’ve done the work, these words [00:25:10] like even I’ve now been introduced to like, ancestral trauma. Do you know what that means? Like, that’s literally like your [00:25:15] ancestors passing down stuff in their literal DNA, you know, like that’s a [00:25:20] huge thing. Epigenetic epigenetics. Exactly. And it’s a massive thing. You can even get it on like 23 a meal or [00:25:25] something like that. You know, you can and it’s kind of shoved under the carpet, but it’s massively a thing. So [00:25:30] it’s funny, but I think you isolate people like as you said, and there’s like it’s like Payman [00:25:35] knows as well. There’s been a few. It’s been like, oh, not sure if Rona can talk about mental [00:25:40] health because she’s like been through her mental health. And I’m like, yeah. And I literally like actually screenshotted [00:25:45] on my stories. And hundreds of people were like, that makes you the biggest advocate. Exactly. [00:25:50] That makes you the biggest advocate because it’s like saying it. It’s like saying to someone, you can’t talk about a recession [00:25:55] because you’ve not been through a recession, because you have been through a recession. You know what I mean? It’s just kind of crazy. [00:26:00] But yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: Take us through the the initial journey. Yeah. First class. [00:26:05] What happens.

Emma Mashall: So, um, the everyone is seated [00:26:10] for the first half an hour. Um, the music is at a tempo [00:26:15] of anything under like one, two, five bpm. So [00:26:20] from the off you basically get, I get everyone to put their hands over their heart and just start [00:26:25] to tap, tap and move. They get the instructions that the two rules that we have with movement is medicine, is that [00:26:30] you have to keep your eyes closed like you saw, and then the other one is don’t stop moving. And [00:26:35] the reason that we don’t stop moving is because if somebody freezes because they feel something uncomfortable, well then [00:26:40] guess what? It’s staying blockage. Yeah, you’re staying in it. You’re staying in the uncomfortability if [00:26:45] you’re constantly moving, which is why the music is so specific, then [00:26:50] whatever feeling comes to the surface, um, you will move it. [00:26:55] And so when we’re working with the body, we work from the feet all the way [00:27:00] up to the top of the head. And there’s a lot of science that goes into this as well, a lot of anatomy. So, for example, [00:27:05] the bottoms of the feet covered in thousands of nerve endings. If you’re stuck in your head, touch your feet. [00:27:10]

Emma Mashall: Simple as that, because it will awaken your nervous system to realise that you’re present. And when [00:27:15] you’re present and you’re present in the in in your body, that’s your anchor. That’s the [00:27:20] moment to know. Oh, look, I’m safe actually, because when we go into these responses, when we go into fight or [00:27:25] flight or even freeze, when we’re in overwhelm, there’s just a it’s just a signal to be like, [00:27:30] we’re not safe. So all you have to do is remind yourself that you’re safe. So the easiest [00:27:35] way to do that is by working with your physical body, because your body is always present. So, [00:27:40] um, start at the feet and then we work our way up. And so we go, um, [00:27:45] even to like, the backs of the knees, a place that no one touches. When was the last time you sat there and, like, touched [00:27:50] the backs of your knees intentionally? The reason being is because we’ve got loads of lymph nodes in the backs of the knees, and the [00:27:55] lymph is literally all it’s needed to work well is a bit of movement and a bit of touch. [00:28:00] That’s it. And it just shows you.

Payman Langroudi: Playing and yeah, and your sort of guiding. [00:28:05]

Rhona Eskander: We’re gonna have to try it. We are going to try it. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: I’m guiding this.

Rhona Eskander: Whole can we have a guided bit in like a little bit. [00:28:10] Let’s do it. Pay. Yeah. What kind of music do you like? I know Emma has to decide. Um, question [00:28:15] for you then. How does this differ to ecstatic dance? Do you know about ecstatic dance? [00:28:20] Emma can explain, but she can do so.

Emma Mashall: These are. This is one of the terminologies that I don’t use. Okay. [00:28:25] Um, and yeah, I’ll tell you why. So ecstatic dance. Um, and and [00:28:30] that kind of community, it’s just based on the fact of the more ancestral tribal kind [00:28:35] of, um, cultural aspect of the fact that dance can be used for healing. It’s like sober [00:28:40] raven. Right? And, um, it works with people. It’s got a beautiful community, etc. [00:28:45] we don’t have necessarily the same ethos [00:28:50] as Ecstatic Dance because of the first bit. The first bit is the real solid [00:28:55] like moment of the method. Every single part of that method is taken [00:29:00] from science. Um, there’s data to back it as to why we’re doing it. I also [00:29:05] tell people why we’re doing it as we move through it, um, so that they can take it away and [00:29:10] use it in daily life. Now ecstatic dance goes to an ecstatic dance class. You’ll just be told to get up and start dancing. So [00:29:15] like you just said, oh, I feel a bit awkward and you know, that kind of thing. And you’re, you’re, I guess your role [00:29:20] or your job in ecstatic dance is to break through feeling uncomfortable and just get on with it. We take [00:29:25] away the aspects of feeling uncomfortable by putting people into their physical body so [00:29:30] deeply that by the time their eyes are open and that they stand up and we go into the dance [00:29:35] segment, they don’t care. They don’t care who’s in the room. They’re just they’re feeling connected, feeling [00:29:40] free. If they also want to continue to shut their eyes, they shut their eyes. And there’s there’s always just like, [00:29:45] um, there’s a really funny episode of Peep Show that people love.

Rhona Eskander: Peep show.

Emma Mashall: Peep show. [00:29:50] So good. Um, when, uh, he takes Mark to Rainbow rhythms, you know, that’s ecstatic dance. [00:29:55] And they get people to go up to each other. Have you seen that one? You kind of.

Rhona Eskander: Do these, like, movements, but you’re really. You’re [00:30:00] really like this. Yeah. And then, like, can you imagine like my fiance, like in Costa Rica, it was [00:30:05] the first time. But he’s so open. Like he was so amazing on the retreat. But I felt like a bit awkward because they do this [00:30:10] kind of like, you’re like this. Imagine me doing this like. And like I’m a I’m a sober dancer. Like I’m a sober raver, [00:30:15] you know that. But I’m never going to be like this, you know what I mean? Like, it’s just it.

Emma Mashall: We don’t do any of [00:30:20] that. Yeah, it’s what we encourage is, for example, when you’re stressed, [00:30:25] you naturally make your body small. So it affects your posture, uh, because your muscles are [00:30:30] going to contract and especially as well your hips and your lower back. And then that affects the rest of your spine. [00:30:35] So what we do. Is to get people to do opening exercises again, [00:30:40] all actually backed by science, to really stretch out and open their bodies up. So [00:30:45] even when they’re standing up and they’re moving and they’re dancing, they’re going to naturally [00:30:50] just I’m not telling them how to move. They’re moving now, however they want to move. Some people, it [00:30:55] might just be a little like, you know, and for other people it might just be a little two step. There’s no [00:31:00] rules. But what I’m kind of guiding people to do is like, make your body big and like, [00:31:05] you know, the more you move, the more you release the like. It’s that kind of just [00:31:10] freedom and letting yourself go like you would at a rave or a festival, which is where I got [00:31:15] so much inspiration for this, because even though hedonism is rife within [00:31:20] that culture, like if you go to certain raves and you go to certain festivals and you’re [00:31:25] not focusing on the hedonism and you’re just focusing on like, look at the joy. Yeah, you know, [00:31:30] you don’t you don’t drink or anything like that’s just your, your life. It’s not it’s not any different [00:31:35] to you. And you’re not somebody that can go to these things and just be like, well, I’m not having a good time. You’re there to connect to the music [00:31:40] and you will move and dance as, as you will, and.

Payman Langroudi: Also to each other, right? To each other.

Emma Mashall: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:31:45] ever felt to being part of a tribe. There we go.

Rhona Eskander: Right when you’re out with your mates, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: And that [00:31:50] back then in the 90s? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Lol. And 6 a.m.. Yeah of course.

Emma Mashall: Totally. [00:31:55] But this comes back to Polyvagal theory. So Polyvagal theory is this again is [00:32:00] this component of like how do we build safety and resilience within the nervous system. So it’s written by this guy called Stephen Porges. [00:32:05] And it’s just such an amazing body of work because he looks at the vagus nerve. And the vagus nerve is such a huge thing now [00:32:10] in mental health. But the vagus nerve, one of the components of building this like connection and [00:32:15] safety is by doing things in a group. So one of the things that we want to do when we’re anxious and depressed and [00:32:20] low is hide, like I know as well. For me, even now, yeah, I get to points where [00:32:25] I get very stressed and overwhelmed and I my default is anxiety. And [00:32:30] I know what’s happening on a logical level, but there’s still elements to me that’s just like, oh, and I [00:32:35] hide. And then as soon as I go out and as soon as I have a dance and as soon as I see my people, [00:32:40] I’m fine. Like, it’s like night and day. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Like sometimes you actually like, oh, I really don’t want to go out. [00:32:45] And, you know, when you force yourself to do it and you’re like, I’m really glad I did. It’s a bit like therapy. Yes. Like you’re like, tonight. I’m [00:32:50] like, oh my God, I got therapy tonight. I’m so tired. I just want to sleep. But like, don’t cancel, don’t cancel. Because when you’ve had therapy you’ll feel so [00:32:55] much better, you know?

Emma Mashall: Totally. And it’s the same thing with.

Payman Langroudi: This therapy.

Emma Mashall: As well. Um, I [00:33:00] don’t do therapy anymore. I’ve had a lot of therapy. Um, yeah, I see my.

Rhona Eskander: Tribe, [00:33:05] my people.

Emma Mashall: Necessarily. Um, I’ve had a lot of therapy with different kinds of therapists. [00:33:10] Um, I’ve had everything from eMDR through to counselling [00:33:15] through to hypnotherapy through to talk therapy, like standard CBT, [00:33:20] talk therapy. Um, I think it’s absolutely got its place. I think it’s so [00:33:25] important for people to understand like a level of awareness in how they feel. Um, what [00:33:30] I will say, though, is that I think that it necessarily needs to exist alongside [00:33:35] something to actually physically release. I think that those two things are super important to coexist [00:33:40] between each other. Um, you can’t always talk your way out of a feeling, [00:33:45] um, you can intellectualise a feeling and understand why it happened and where it came from. But you can’t [00:33:50] always move that feeling so true. That’s why the two things need to coexist. [00:33:55] And so that’s also for me, like, I was so sick of talking about what happened to me. You know, I [00:34:00] went I went to this therapist and that therapist, and then I’m repeating the story and just get to a point where I’m like, [00:34:05] I can’t talk about this anymore. I need to just release it. And [00:34:10] that was also a huge, you know, part of my work for me and why I needed to [00:34:15] do it. It was about me releasing these, these very difficult [00:34:20] and very traumatic experiences that had changed me. Um, but [00:34:25] I didn’t want it to change me for the worse.

Emma Mashall: I didn’t want to end up this anxious, afraid [00:34:30] of the world, you know, human being, which I easily could have gone into that that realm because [00:34:35] it was very extreme what happened to me. And it was also, um, medical trauma is [00:34:40] a very interesting type of trauma, because medical trauma is essentially done [00:34:45] by people that you’re meant to trust and these doctors that you’re being completely vulnerable [00:34:50] to. And, you know, I’m not here. I’m not trying to demonise doctors at all. It’s just [00:34:55] that with that type of trauma, it’s such a complex thing of having to unpack [00:35:00] because you are literally giving your whole body to somebody and trusting that they’re going to do the right thing [00:35:05] or do the right, or do their job properly. And for whatever reason, I just had a whole myriad [00:35:10] of like, failures that ended up and resulted in me, you know, nearly losing my life and like, [00:35:15] that kind of thing, to have to process just by talking about it. Like, even now [00:35:20] I can feel myself. I’m like, I’m getting emotional internally. I can feel it. And it’s like, I can’t [00:35:25] keep talking about it. You know, talking about it is not going to help me process it and move [00:35:30] forward, because I don’t want to be stuck there for the rest of my life, but in the past.

Rhona Eskander: And that’s the thing, because I, you know, I was speaking to [00:35:35] someone recently and they were like, you know what? I don’t know about how unpacking the past will actually help because we can [00:35:40] all like delve, delve, delve, delve, delve. And as you said, you can go as far as epigenetics. Like, I’m so traumatised [00:35:45] because like my ancestors were this or I come from like war inflicted countries, [00:35:50] but it gives you an understanding. So I think it’s important. But like you said, it doesn’t necessarily [00:35:55] help process the present. And that’s the thing. The present is one of the most important things to be in. And we [00:36:00] all know from so many philosophers that our state of happiness as being in that present [00:36:05] moment. And I think you’re right, this changing your physiological state is really important. [00:36:10] And I think the most dangerous thing now is that when people get more anxious, they get on the phone, which then gets more anxiety, [00:36:15] and then they continue to scroll, and that creates even more anxiety. And they actually don’t want to move. And like you said, [00:36:20] just putting it down and either moving or like going to meet friends can just make such a huge [00:36:25] difference.

Payman Langroudi: Could you see your Mexico experience as a positive one or a negative one in [00:36:30] the hospital?

Emma Mashall: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it didn’t.

Emma Mashall: Work. It didn’t work. No, I would [00:36:35] say it was a necessary experience rather than positive or negative. [00:36:40] Um, because it it was like, okay, I’ve been in Western medicine. [00:36:45] Right. And that didn’t work. I’ve now gone into functional medicine searching for all the answers that didn’t [00:36:50] work. It allowed me to understand how much we pedestal people and [00:36:55] look outside for the answers. So true all the time. And then [00:37:00] the levels of like, disappointment and, you know, even just pain or it’s like, oh my God, you’ve made it worse. [00:37:05] Like what? How has this happened? And on top of that paid a lot of money. You [00:37:10] know, so much money. This is the side of illness that people don’t really discuss very often because we don’t tend [00:37:15] to talk about money. But I lost everything. Like I nearly went bankrupt, you know, and I had a really [00:37:20] successful career. And so I’ve been having to rebuild from then and [00:37:25] these kind of things. They also have an impact on your mental health, like going from somebody who [00:37:30] is stable, who is okay to somebody that now is having to speak to like debt collectors. [00:37:35] And, you know, it was there was just so many aspects to how much this [00:37:40] changed my life. And so I wouldn’t say it was positive or negative, I would just say it was necessary for [00:37:45] me to reframe how much I was putting my health into other people and [00:37:50] their hands. Um, where in turn it was a case of actually, what can I do? [00:37:55] What can I actually do for myself? Take the matter.

Rhona Eskander: Into your own hands.

Emma Mashall: How can I feel a bit more empowered? And [00:38:00] then did.

Payman Langroudi: You take care of all the other stuff as well? Nutrition.

Emma Mashall: Rest. Totally. Sleep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:38:05] I mean, I would also say that at some point it probably went to a bit of an extreme.

Rhona Eskander: Really?

Emma Mashall: What way? [00:38:10] So, um, there’s a rise of orthorexia. I don’t know if you’ve [00:38:15] heard.

Rhona Eskander: Of course I think I have, I think I had orthorexia, so.

Emma Mashall: Did I, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: When you over. [00:38:20] You’re obsessed with being so healthy. So you think that all of the choices that you make are really healthy? You [00:38:25] get really defensive when people questioned you because everything’s like, in the name of health. So, for example, you’re obsessed with like, [00:38:30] calorie counting, eating zero sugar, eating zero fat. Um, also overexercising [00:38:35] and you also justify all of your health reasons because you’re so healthy and [00:38:40] everyone else is a bit jealous because you are in such a space of control, and no one else [00:38:45] can be that my body is my temple kind of energy, but it’s actually very it’s an unhealthy way to [00:38:50] mask addiction. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: And it’s like you just said there, it’s a complete coping mechanism for control. How can [00:38:55] I make as much control in my life as possible? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Anorexia, but with exercise and yeah, [00:39:00] no.

Rhona Eskander: It’s fine. Like you’re not completely depriving your body, but you are doing the opposite. You’re doing the opposite. But you’re [00:39:05] like, I’m only gonna eat like.

Payman Langroudi: So much as anorexia, as a control mechanism. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: So [00:39:10] and it’s not about. Yeah. It’s not about what you look like either. It’s very much about what you’re putting [00:39:15] in your yourself. Yeah. So for me it was a case of yeah. Like, you know, tiniest [00:39:20] bit of gluten. I’d freak out and like going into supermarkets and checking every label and organic. [00:39:25]

Rhona Eskander: And this and that.

Emma Mashall: It’s just a lot of fear mongering. Yeah. So much fear.

Payman Langroudi: Mongering these [00:39:30] days. Must be very.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, I think and I think that that like, that toxic narrative, [00:39:35] like it really upsets me now. My mum, um, called me the other day to tell [00:39:40] me that she saw my ex and I was like, great, you know what I mean? To tell me how, like, wonderful he looked with his new wife. [00:39:45] I was like, thanks mum. Classic. My mum, she’s entertaining. Like my mum needs her own show anyway. [00:39:50] And it turns out my mum was like, oh, you know, they’re so controlled, like they’re apparently they don’t [00:39:55] eat dinner every night and they go to bed and they, they the last meals at 6 p.m. and they go [00:40:00] to bed every night at ten and all this stuff, it’s the same as that guy, actually, Steven Bartlett had on. Did you see [00:40:05] the guy that was like, no. Attempting to be the youngest man in the world. Did you see that? And he got his [00:40:10] son’s blood injected into his body. Have you not seen it? And he’s this multi-billionaire.

Emma Mashall: I’m [00:40:15] so anti.

Rhona Eskander: Him. Yeah. So he’s this multi-billionaire. And what happened was, is that he got his bloods like [00:40:20] PRP, got it injected. He wakes up every day at 5 a.m.. His last [00:40:25] meal of the day is at 11 a.m. he then has like 1,000,001 like IV boosts [00:40:30] and everything.

Payman Langroudi: He’s trying to reverse ageing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but he also looks really old. Ironically, I.

Payman Langroudi: Saw the clip. [00:40:35]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. But the issue.

Emma Mashall: Right. He’s a great example of somebody with [00:40:40] a severe mental health condition who is promoting it under the guise of health because he’s under [00:40:45] the guise of health.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Emma Mashall: It’s like none of this behaviour is healthy. And actually, when Stephen [00:40:50] was talking to him about his story, he literally says, like, my dad got sick. And, you [00:40:55] know, I want to keep my dad alive and I’m trying to figure it out for my dad. And it’s like, that’s the issue. Then that’s [00:41:00] clearly the problem. It’s not the fact that you want to live forever, because also life [00:41:05] is not about living, right? Yeah. That’s the purpose of being a human. You come you [00:41:10] you do your you do your time and then you go. And so having [00:41:15] this person that is under the guise of I’m doing something for the, for the benefit of health, no [00:41:20] you’re not. Plus you’re his protocol is like three grand a month. Yeah. So who are you benefiting because you’re not benefiting [00:41:25] the poor. You’re not. This is a big thing for me. It’s the ideologies [00:41:30] that exist within the wellness industry where it’s like, yeah, be healthy for [00:41:35] X amount of money. And it’s like, okay, so we’re really making health now [00:41:40] a class system. That’s really what we’re doing. Yeah. And that is such a problem in the wellness [00:41:45] space.

Rhona Eskander: So the thing is I’ve got a couple of comments on that. Right. We are undergoing at [00:41:50] the moment an NHS crisis. Like there is literally like a pandemic within the health care [00:41:55] system. And that’s because the system is flawed. But my issue is, is that although [00:42:00] there are so many tools that are free and available, number one, they’re not promoted. [00:42:05] But number two, there is a massive issue and massive obstacles for people, right? So for example, Payman [00:42:10] knows very well with dentistry. Okay. There’s a huge issue. A lot of dental diseases [00:42:15] are preventable, but people don’t know how to brush their teeth, they don’t know how to floss and they don’t know what to [00:42:20] buy or what to eat. Now it’s all very well. We can provide those tools and I’m [00:42:25] sure it would make a difference. But we’re also completely ignoring the socioeconomic status [00:42:30] of people in this country. If you’ve got a woman who has five children [00:42:35] from five different partners who’s, you know, on the welfare system, and she cannot keep [00:42:40] her kids quiet, who probably have ADHD and another plethora of health issues, [00:42:45] you know, telling her that she shouldn’t smoke, it’s probably the only thing she wants to do. And going downstairs [00:42:50] and getting a McDonald’s and a pack of fags, it’s much easier for her than, you know, to post something [00:42:55] or to make easy health choices. Don’t be like that. Don’t be classist.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:43:00] a bit. It’s a bit, um, what’s the word? Not judgemental, but like, um, [00:43:05] you know, the what you’re saying is all well and good. [00:43:10]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but we have to make it easier for them. We cannot assume that they’ve got these choices. So.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:43:15] look, the choice the choice that you’re talking about, put one song on a day. Yeah. [00:43:20] Also, everyone’s got a phone. This is.

Emma Mashall: Education. Yeah. This is the key because. [00:43:25] So my whole business model is built on [00:43:30] education. So when people understand why [00:43:35] it works, they do the how exactly. Otherwise they don’t do it. It’s all well and good. [00:43:40] We know that smoking is not good for you. Of course we know. But yeah, everyone’s still smoking and eating McDonald’s. [00:43:45] Yeah, we’re still doing it if you’re actually somebody that’s looked into it. [00:43:50] But if you’re somebody that’s actually looked into certain things [00:43:55] or studies or whatever it is, and you start to understand why something is good or bad [00:44:00] or what they found, etc., you’re more likely to either do it or not do it now. For example, [00:44:05] for me, I use gluten as an example. Right when I went through this whole like, I’m going to be so [00:44:10] healthy and I can’t eat any gluten and whatever. When I got so fed up and realised that the orthorexia [00:44:15] tendencies were probably there and I went kind of the reverse, I was like, I’m eating all the gluten I’ve ever. [00:44:20] All I’m eating is pizza, give.

Rhona Eskander: Me bread, bread.

Emma Mashall: Every day. And I ended up feeling terrible [00:44:25] because I, I definitely don’t do very well with gluten. Yeah. Like is that simple. They said to me for coeliac recently [00:44:30] just to see. So I think that when you kind of go [00:44:35] through this like it’s like a roundabout, you’re just like, oh, is it this is it, that is it, this is it that. And you try and [00:44:40] find like your balance within all of this stuff, of taking it back into a space [00:44:45] of empowerment where you’re making the choice for yourself, rather than if a practitioner [00:44:50] told me, which they did at one point, you can’t eat any of these foods. What do I want to do? [00:44:55] I want to go and eat the foods that they’ve told me I can’t eat 100%. But the thing is.

Rhona Eskander: Like Payman when they were talking [00:45:00] about because, um, I spoke to many TV channels in the summer about [00:45:05] when it was like suddenly the doors were closed on children on the NHS, as in, like people, [00:45:10] kids couldn’t get an NHS appointment. And there was a huge debate, I think it was with BBC [00:45:15] and the debate was is it the parents fault? Basically, you know, with the child that’s like developing [00:45:20] all these cavities. And it was really sad because I think it was quite remarkable to see that so many [00:45:25] parents didn’t actually have a basic knowledge. And some of them, as I said, because of their socioeconomic [00:45:30] status. And they have this screaming child will put a bottle with Coke in their children’s [00:45:35] bottle. And I’m not saying. But like, who are we to judge? We don’t know their circumstances. I get it, I get it, [00:45:40] you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it.

Rhona Eskander: Of course I get it. Great. I’m glad.

Payman Langroudi: But a little bit condescending, [00:45:45] man. You know, the the the the important bit of education [00:45:50] with with sugar. Interestingly, we haven’t managed to get out there.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. [00:45:55] Jamie Oliver tried. What is it?

Payman Langroudi: What is it? It’s not to do with the amount.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, it’s [00:46:00] with frequency.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t know this. It’s to do with the frequency. Totally. Yeah. So in in dental terms, [00:46:05] you can have a gigantic amount of sugar in one go is fine compared to tiny [00:46:10] amounts every day. Every day, every ten minutes. Every ten minutes. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. So that bit [00:46:15] of information we haven’t as a profession managed to get out.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But I still think I am not being condescending. I’m [00:46:20] actually being empathetic to people’s situation. And what I’m trying to say is I get it.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I get it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:46:25] fine. We argue a lot on this, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: And people get it. People get it. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Um, um, [00:46:30] but Emma, obviously it’s wonderful that you created this method, but I want [00:46:35] to know a little bit about any mental health struggles on the way of creating this business. You talk to us about [00:46:40] going from basically bankruptcy, where you’re working in the music industry, investing everything into [00:46:45] your house, then building the movement is medicine method. Uh, how did [00:46:50] you what mental health hurdles then did you have when you had the actual business?

Payman Langroudi: I also I also get a [00:46:55] feeling you’re not 100% comfortable in the business space.

Emma Mashall: No I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:47:00] that right?

Emma Mashall: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: How did you know that?

Payman Langroudi: Just feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Emma Mashall: No, I struggle [00:47:05] with business. Um, I put out a video a few days ago saying [00:47:10] that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, maybe that’s.

Emma Mashall: Why saying how much I struggle with it. Because I [00:47:15] really am good at creative and ideas and making this happen [00:47:20] and figuring out how to, like you said, about marketing, like, what’s the language we need to use to get this person? [00:47:25] Like, what’s the psychology around getting this person through the door? And I’m really good at all of that. I’m really [00:47:30] good at creating decks and making things look nice and and whatever else. I’m [00:47:35] also really good at researching, and I’m really good at making science sound easy. Um, [00:47:40] it’s something that I taught myself when I was ill. It’s like, how do you translate this into layman’s terms? So I’m [00:47:45] really good at all of that. And then I’m good at, you know, creating the content around that so that people can understand it [00:47:50] business and having to make all the decisions, having to [00:47:55] do budgets, having to figure out, I hate it. I just really, [00:48:00] really struggle.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very creative. You’re so. But she doesn’t seem to have any guilt [00:48:05] around the business, which I kind of feel like.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean, guilt?

Payman Langroudi: I feel I.

Payman Langroudi: Feel guilt.

Rhona Eskander: What [00:48:10] do you mean guilt.

Emma Mashall: Though? I think it’s because, as well, I’m just. I’m in this zone at the [00:48:15] moment of. One of the things that’s been really challenging has been [00:48:20] separating me from the brand, because I am the face of the brand. It’s like, it’s me. Yeah, [00:48:25] it’s really similar. Um, but at the same time as well. Chelsea Dental [00:48:30] it’s, it’s, you know, it’s yours. But at the same time you also have all these [00:48:35] other projects. I just have movement is medicine right now. And it’s not to say I don’t want to go on to do other things, [00:48:40] because I do. I’ve got all these ideas about how I want to build things out. However, at the moment everything [00:48:45] goes into this business because I believe in it so much and it’s my it’s my passion, it’s my baby, it’s everything. [00:48:50] But what I’ve struggled the most with is finding [00:48:55] the balance between the business and the actual vision. And [00:49:00] I have done this on my own. So when I started as well, there’s, I call it, [00:49:05] um, shiny Magpie syndrome. So when people get really excited by shiny [00:49:10] things and they’re like, oh my God, it’s really exciting. People lie, you know, they lie, they tell [00:49:15] you, oh, I can do this, and I can do that, and I can, you know.

Rhona Eskander: She’s been burnt.

Emma Mashall: So many times, like [00:49:20] count like beyond.

Payman Langroudi: By partners or employees.

Emma Mashall: No, no no employees. Employees. [00:49:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s just the nature of.

Emma Mashall: No. It’s been really extreme, but it’s been really extreme. [00:49:30] It’s not just been somebody, like, not really doing their job. It’s been fraud. Yeah. Somebody [00:49:35] really came in and there was a there was a fraud situation. Um, I [00:49:40] had on the week of my TEDx talk, um, the assistant that I’ve been working with for a year, ghosted [00:49:45] for no reason other than the fact that she’d done no work, um, with no explanation. [00:49:50] Um, I had to get somebody on really quickly to come and, like, kind of wipe it all [00:49:55] up, and it was just the wrong person. It just got worse and worse. So when you [00:50:00] have a business that the ideas are all solid and the ideas are all there, but structurally [00:50:05] there’s no foundation. It doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work.

Rhona Eskander: You know that.

Payman Langroudi: Any business [00:50:10] owner. Okay, so.

Rhona Eskander: I’m gonna I’m gonna listen. I’m gonna I’m gonna try I’m going to chime in, like, first of all, [00:50:15] and trust me, like, it’s an ongoing process. And I think that, like, one of the reasons why I feel really [00:50:20] passionate, I used to say I had a lot of people [00:50:25] that I looked up to. Now, unfortunately, in dentistry, despite the fact there are a [00:50:30] lot of females, there is not a lot of female led stuff within dentistry. And I hate to admit it, [00:50:35] but I’m going to say it the. Most of my role models were in dentistry were men. So there were certain men like [00:50:40] Christian Coachman was up there. Miguel Stanley, this was like 12, 15 years ago. These are huge names in the industry. [00:50:45] This was literally about 12 years ago. And I was like, how did they did it? And what I loved about them is there were connection [00:50:50] with their audiences and their connections with human beings. And I very much [00:50:55] was like, oh, you know what? Like, I don’t get why people make such a big deal about like, women [00:51:00] in business or they make I think it’s fine. I think if you show your value and you [00:51:05] go into like a boardroom or a situation, you can do the same for yourself. Payman knew me [00:51:10] when I was like a baby.

Rhona Eskander: Like I literally was like 1 or 2 years graduated. And he also knows, because I met him on [00:51:15] a course like I wasn’t actually the most, like, clinically gifted person in the world. And he loves a clinically [00:51:20] gifted person. He does. But I drove home with him that day because we lived near each other [00:51:25] and I was like, how do I make it? How do I do this stuff? And, you know, we like exchanged ideas [00:51:30] and I definitely like manifested the position I was in because what happened was, is that I was working [00:51:35] in a bad NHS practice and then I CV dropped in all these other practices. And then [00:51:40] I took on Chelsea, which had changed hands five times, and then I bought Chelsea [00:51:45] and completed a week before national lockdown. And what I’m trying to say is, is that I always feel like there’s one obstacle out the other. [00:51:50] Yeah, the difficulty was obviously you build a team, but people come and go and I think that’s one of the most difficult [00:51:55] things for me is that I’ve been extremely loyal, and what I recognise is that people are transient. [00:52:00] There are some that stay for a while and some that don’t, and I think that’s the most difficult thing because you sometimes [00:52:05] feel early days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, early days is like that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And that’s the thing like the thing is, is [00:52:10] that you also have to accept, like, as you know, through your own healing journey, the only thing that we can [00:52:15] guarantee for definite is that nothing is permanent. Nothing is permanent. [00:52:20] And I think that’s a blessing and a curse, because sometimes you want to be like cruising with the same team for [00:52:25] ages, but sometimes they have to move with you. And unfortunately, in the last couple of years, I’ve [00:52:30] also recognised my role with as a female within the industry. That’s kind of like taken [00:52:35] me aback. And I was like, wow, it is real. Like the things that people talk about that happen to women. Like [00:52:40] it’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think being a woman is being part of this?

Emma Mashall: Hmm. Um, [00:52:45] as a business owner right now, I don’t know. I can’t say [00:52:50] yes or no because I don’t feel that there’s been any situation that [00:52:55] I can say yes. This is where a good example of where I felt blocked as a woman. However, [00:53:00] in the music industry, 100%. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Tell us more.

Rhona Eskander: About the music industry.

Emma Mashall: Glass ceilings [00:53:05] beyond glass ceilings like there is. So there [00:53:10] are so many different structures in that industry. You know, it’s known as a boys club for a reason. [00:53:15] And there are so many different structures within that industry that are built so that women are always going to [00:53:20] be kept here. Um, give us an example. I mean, like [00:53:25] you look at any kind of person in a leadership position in a global record label or [00:53:30] booking agency, they’re going to be a man. Like there’s very few women in global leadership positions [00:53:35] in the music industry. And the ones that are are they’ve really [00:53:40] had to pave the way. And I was actually very fortunate. In one of my jobs, I [00:53:45] worked in a very female heavy booking agency. Um, and the experience [00:53:50] was definitely, I would say, easier because the [00:53:55] person in charge of that whole office, uh, is one of the greatest agents [00:54:00] in the world, and she’s a woman. And so it’s a very, very diverse, [00:54:05] um, makeup of men and women in that agency. You walk into other agencies? [00:54:10] No way. It’s like 90% men. Um, and [00:54:15] obviously.

Payman Langroudi: And what does it mean? Does that mean that the, the the business itself is kind of testosterone [00:54:20] driven? Yeah.

Emma Mashall: I think it’s just, um, do.

Payman Langroudi: You are you saying actually people will hold you back [00:54:25] because you’re a woman?

Emma Mashall: I think that there’s, um, maybe an internal [00:54:30] bias that people have, um, whether or not they believe in it or not, um, [00:54:35] or are aware of it or not, I think that there’s an internal bias of a woman [00:54:40] can only get to this point. I think that that really does exist. And I think that, you know, this [00:54:45] comes also from recognising traditional roles like the the nature and the notion [00:54:50] of women in business, in leadership positions is a very new concept. Um, this is I do.

Rhona Eskander: Think it’s been overdone [00:54:55] though, like, because then like I do think as well like we’ve again like I new words for you [00:55:00] dictionary out like the female and the masculine energy as well. Like I think is something [00:55:05] that we’ve over we’re like women are also like hyper focussed on like really [00:55:10] kind of embracing the masculine energy, which I think is important in some circumstances. But also being in [00:55:15] your feminine sometimes is not a bad thing either. It has to be balanced. Do you know what I mean by this, or is this Gaga [00:55:20] stuff to you? But like, you know, like for example, like.

Payman Langroudi: As in to succeed being a woman, you have [00:55:25] to act like a man.

Rhona Eskander: No, not not really. Like there’s a female masculine energy. So like some behaviours [00:55:30] that women now project are very like masculine, archetypal [00:55:35] masculine. Niches and some would say that’s bad. I think it’s bad in some circumstances. [00:55:40] I actually think it can make you ill. I think it made me ill. I think it burnt me out because I was so obsessed [00:55:45] with being this, like CEO figure like this in control a little bit. Bolshie. [00:55:50] Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, it drove me to a certain extent lol. Um, [00:55:55] so, um, it drove me to a certain extent, but then it bounced [00:56:00] me out. And sometimes, like when I’m at home now with my partner, my God, I just love it when he takes [00:56:05] control. I’m like, you can’t surrender. I just want to surrender into what we call like a more like feminine [00:56:10] sort of energy, you know, which is totally fine with me. Look after me. I’m cool, I’m cool. [00:56:15] Look after me. You know.

Emma Mashall: That’s. I’m gonna say now that is what I’ve struggled with, what she’s just described [00:56:20] there in business. That is exactly what I’ve struggled with. Where I don’t have a business partner, [00:56:25] it’s just me. So I am the face, the voice, the marketing, the socials, the researcher, [00:56:30] the curriculum builder, the teacher. I’m everything, and I don’t [00:56:35] have that other person there to just be like, huh? Can you just yeah, can you just [00:56:40] take this because and that traditionally.

Payman Langroudi: Even I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: That’s to do with [00:56:45] being a woman.

Emma Mashall: No, I think that that’s just to do with.

Payman Langroudi: Because I don’t think I could do a business by myself. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: I think [00:56:50] that that’s just to do with the nature of what we need as people. Which brings us back to the community aspect, which we [00:56:55] don’t really have as much.

Payman Langroudi: There are some people that are the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, I don’t know in Chelsea. Would [00:57:00] you want a partner?

Rhona Eskander: No, but I often get told, um, that I [00:57:05] don’t. I got told recently, even though I was like, maybe you should step down from being [00:57:10] a director at Chelsea just because you are really good at, like, podcasts and [00:57:15] like doing all the creative stuff. And I was like, I built this brand on my own. And like, I struggled [00:57:20] to assert authority because I really do struggle to assert authority within the business space. [00:57:25] And the thing is, as well, because I’m an empath, I take everyone’s energy constantly. So I’m drained [00:57:30] by the end of the week. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I am it’s really early days.

Emma Mashall: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:57:35] is really early days. You have no idea how.

Payman Langroudi: Early it is.

Emma Mashall: No, I do, I do.

Payman Langroudi: And what it is that the the [00:57:40] rhythm and the processes kind of work themselves out. [00:57:45] Yeah. Around the person you are. Yeah. The fact that they haven’t fully worked themselves out is.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:57:50] they have.

Emma Mashall: Now this is what.

Payman Langroudi: I was saying. Business. Totally.

Emma Mashall: It’s a very young business. And the thing is, [00:57:55] I think that we all need mentors, right? We all need people that are in a much more advanced [00:58:00] position than us. That can just be. And if you take the guidance or not, it doesn’t matter. There’s somebody [00:58:05] that I haven’t had one. I’ve not really had any mentorship for the business. [00:58:10] I’ve had mentorship for my health and my research and all of that kind of stuff. Definitely [00:58:15] for the business aspect, I’m still on the hunt for like a mentor figure. And [00:58:20] recently this is where I put this video out, where I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Like, I just can’t do it on my own. [00:58:25] And then since I put that video out, it was a bit like exposure therapy because I’m [00:58:30] a big believer in exposure therapy. Yeah. Big exposure. It could be anything. It’s like [00:58:35] if you have a fear around this thing, go and do the thing because then you’ll break through your fear. And I had [00:58:40] a massive block with social media because when [00:58:45] you’re in a position where you’re helping people, people, um, [00:58:50] can become problematic for various reasons. Co-dependent it [00:58:55] I mean, we can use that word. Yeah, but also more so delusional. Um, yeah, [00:59:00] I would say delusional is probably the better word to use because they make a personality for [00:59:05] you, you know, and I’ve had to I’ve had really serious incidences with people that [00:59:10] are, you know, they’re mentally not not very well. And given the nature of my work, there’s a level [00:59:15] of understanding as to what’s happening.

Emma Mashall: But it’s also, with all due respect, it’s not my problem. You need to go and get professional [00:59:20] help. I’m teaching a class and you can either take part or not take part. I’m not [00:59:25] going to solve your trauma boundaries, huge boundaries necessary for this. [00:59:30] And but the thing is, is that this stuff has impacted me in, in ways that I don’t want to speak [00:59:35] about publicly, but it’s just like, yeah, it’s impacting me in a lot of different ways because of the nature of what was being done and [00:59:40] said. And so I think that that side of it and not having [00:59:45] a partner, both professional and personal, I don’t have a partner, so [00:59:50] I’m doing it on my own. So when I’m in my flat on my own and I finished teaching and I’m having to deal [00:59:55] with another delusional person with nowhere to go with this, it’s [01:00:00] had a really severe. I’ve basically developed social anxiety for [01:00:05] the first time in my whole life, and this is where it leads. Back to your original question of like, how was how [01:00:10] was having a business that affected your mental health? I’ve never had social anxiety. I don’t have a problem with. I [01:00:15] love people, I’ve spent my whole life around loads of people and community structures. When I was younger, [01:00:20] I used to be an athlete. I was in and out with different people all the time. Now I’m literally a bit like, [01:00:25] oh, who is that? What did I want? Same. And I don’t like that.

Rhona Eskander: Thing is is life humbles [01:00:30] you? But these experiences, like I’ve read a quote the other day that said my trauma didn’t make me [01:00:35] stronger because, you know. They say what? What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. It goes. It made me more guarded. It made me [01:00:40] get on. And I was like, that’s how I feel. Like a couple of things have happened to me in the last couple of years. And I’m like, do you know what? Like, [01:00:45] I never used to think people had bad intentions. And now I’m like, [01:00:50] your intentions are pure. And unfortunately, that’s what like life has done to me. Question for you as well is [01:00:55] this movement is medicine been explored in schools? I’m sure that there’s. Yeah, great. That’s fantastic. [01:01:00]

Emma Mashall: So, um, I am also training. I’m really big [01:01:05] on training other people. Right. So that’s so key to me. I’m one person, right. [01:01:10] So I’m sure that you’ve got, you’ve got your own methods as well that you’re like, oh, if I taught this to more people, then [01:01:15] more people would understand my way of working. Right. So with this in mind, [01:01:20] I’m like, where are the primary school teachers? Where where are the teachers? Because if I teach this to a teacher, [01:01:25] then that’s usable in their whole school. Yeah, right. And I don’t then have to go and do it. [01:01:30] But of course, until we get as many people as possible through the door to do this training and also [01:01:35] looking at things like government grants and, you know, other ways in which we can fund this. Um, [01:01:40] I do go into schools, um, and I, and I do a lot of for the younger ones, [01:01:45] it’s just kind of we just random. Yeah. But for the older ones, I teach [01:01:50] the science and I teach the theory that I teach in businesses. So I go into corporates, I go into companies, and I teach [01:01:55] the this is this is what stress is. This is how it affects you in terms of your mind and body. And here [01:02:00] how to utilise dance and music in your own body to release it. And I teach that in schools and it usually [01:02:05] is very well received. And people, you know, they really do remember it. And I also [01:02:10] do these workshops for teachers so that they can then apply that to kids they’re working with.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you said you haven’t [01:02:15] got a partner in the business, you haven’t got a partner in life. So on.

Payman Langroudi: Purpose.

Emma Mashall: No, [01:02:20] no, no, I, I mean the business partner side of things. [01:02:25] I’ve only just kind of opened myself up to that possibility. Um, because of all of these [01:02:30] ups and downs with the business, I was a bit like, yeah, don’t trust anyone. I’ve now got a really beautiful [01:02:35] team. I’m really happy with my team. Um, so I’m therefore in a position where I can open myself [01:02:40] back up again and being like, right, this is all cool. So let me see. And I’ve got somebody who I work [01:02:45] with. She is just like, she’s like my right hand. She just gets me. She understands my vision. So [01:02:50] I can also now have somebody that I can talk to and bounce off a bit in regards to that stuff and [01:02:55] in return, in terms of like life again, illness takes [01:03:00] everything. Um, I wasn’t with somebody while as [01:03:05] I was getting ill, you know, I had like kind of non serious relationships on and off things, but, um, [01:03:10] yeah, when I got ill, I wasn’t with anyone. So that was another element of like, [01:03:15] you’re doing it alone. And I had my family, but my family as well, you know, they struggled [01:03:20] with me being ill.

Rhona Eskander: Um, Emma, thank you so much for being, [01:03:25] like, so open. I think you’re such an incredible human being. And it’s been [01:03:30] such an amazing chat. I could literally chat here for like, hours and hours and hours talking to [01:03:35] you. If anyone wants to find you online, um, it’s. Do you want to tell them your handles? [01:03:40]

Emma Mashall: Yeah. So Emma the Alchemist on Instagram and then we’re also under movement is medicine [01:03:45] UK. And that’s also the website okay.

Rhona Eskander: That’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: How did you get to the Ted?

Emma Mashall: Ted, [01:03:50] um, if you type in, um, Emma marshall Ted talk, it will come up [01:03:55] on YouTube.

Payman Langroudi: I really recommend.

Payman Langroudi: That. Thank you. We recommend that you like it.

Rhona Eskander: Do we have do we have can we ask, do we have [01:04:00] time for a little like dance? Do you want to ask. Yeah, because Rich is like giving me [01:04:05] the looks. So yeah he’s giving me okay, fine. So. Okay. And that’s so sad. Okay. Well [01:04:10] anyways, we probably have to do an Instagram live. I love you messaging me at midnight being like, you’re like, can I, [01:04:15] can I? But honestly, thank you so much. It’s been such an incredible conversation. [01:04:20] And you know, I’m one of your biggest supporters. And I really recommend, you know, checking her [01:04:25] out, moving your body because it really change your physiological state to change a psychological one. [01:04:30] Exactly. That.

Emma Mashall: Is that like that?

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. Bye.