No one could accuse Jenny Kabib of being anything but quick off the mark in finding success. She purchased her first practice just six months after finishing VT and was considering retirement by the time she hit her mid-20s.
Jenny takes us through her impoverished upbringing in York, where she became a full-time young carer after her mother sustained life-changing injuries. She describes how she dealt with a shocking violation of trust from an associate, reveals why she often hesitates before treating lawyers and much more.
“If you’ve heard of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I really feel I’m at a point in my life where I’ve got enough…I want to give back and empower other people in whatever capacity I can.” – Jenni Kabir
In This Episode
02.52 – Backstory
08.49 – Into dental school
11.29 – Adversity and confidence
14.02 – Leaving mum behind
17.17 – VT, first jobs and practice ownership
24.26 – Starting again
27.30 – North Vs South
29.27 – Building Fresh Dental
33.32 – A violation of trust
41.08 – Blackbox thinking
50.49 – Women and implantology
53.14 – On mentors
56.15 – Teaching, B&Bs, car washes and diversification
01.04.27 – Motivation and leadership
01.06.59 – Future plans and pride
01.09.36 – Last days and legacy
About Jenni Kabir
Dr Jenni Kabir studied in Manchester, where she ran a chain of successful clinics before returning to her hometown of York to set up Fresh Smiles Dental Clinic.
She is one of the youngest dentists to be awarded DPDS postgraduate diploma from the University of Bristol and holds a diploma in implant dentistry from the Royal College of Surgeons.
Jenni was selected to be the dentist for the Manchester Commonwealth Games in 2001 and the London Olympic games in 2012. She is currently undertaking a masters degree in implantology.
[00:00:00] I’ve done the growth, the learning, the journey, the business, the practise set up, the private practise, female kids. I feel if you’ve heard of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I really feel that a point in my life where I think I’ve got enough, I’m really content financially and I want to kind of give back and
[00:00:21] Empower other people in whatever capacity I can.
[00:00:25] And when I was younger, money was important. And it’s a natural tendency to want to show that money off, be it by a car, whether
[00:00:32] It’s because you enjoy driving it or whether you want to show it or designer clothes or whatever,
[00:00:37] It might be adversely for me. Conversely, for me, it’s I’ve gone the opposite. I feel that I don’t really have a desire to kind of exhibit wealth.
[00:00:48] My needs have become a lot more modest.
[00:00:51] You know, I’m on a dieting programme where hardly anything now, so I can’t even spend it on fine food. So for me, the driver’s isn’t money in finances anymore, but more connecting with people, giving back teaching, empowering networking. And I really love people.
[00:01:17] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki,
[00:01:34] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Jenny to be able to do podcast. I’ve known Jenny for years. One of the original enlightened users when one from my era gin is more more from my era than the younger guests that we’ve had recently, Jenny, for me, is someone I keep seeing on the, you know, the post-grad circuit, someone who seems to have a sort of insatiable sort of desire to learn, and it’s really done really well with it. A veteran of general practise implant Ology Orthodontics, Facialist Ethics, Super successful practises. Lovely to have you on the show, Jenny.
[00:02:12] Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be speaking to you.
[00:02:15] So, Jenny, these things start normally with the back story. How do you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? Where, where? Where did you grow up? All of that?
[00:02:23] I grew up in York. I’ve lived in New York most of my life. An unusual place for an Asian, I guess, to grow up because there’s not many Asians in New York. It’s not very multicultural. My dad kind of landed in York as a restaurant back in the seventies. So yeah, I grew up in New York.
[00:02:43] Typical story. Immigrant parents.
[00:02:46] My parents were uneducated. They came here for the prospects of a better life. So in turn, I had a bit of an impoverished upbringing. My father was a bit of a failed businessman, actually. He never quite succeeded despite being wanting to be ambitious and be a successful businessman. Which left me seeing my mom having to work extremely hard to pick up the pieces around him. I recall my childhood being quite difficult because mom was always working subsequent to was always going bankrupt early and losing our home. And from a pride point of view, that was massive. My mom was about to feel and she started taking on a lot of jobs just to try and keep the mortgage payments going. As a child, what I realised is, you know, I’d come home from school at four o’clock secondary school. I was about to primary school. I was nine and I’d be left to look after younger siblings. There’s a big age gap between me and my younger siblings because I had a brother when I was five, he was two and a half and he got knocked down by a car hit and wanted to buy a house, actually. So it’s quite tragic. Subsequent to that, my other siblings are a big age gap, so I was often the one looking after the children.
[00:04:08] My mum would then go to work in countries Chocolate Factory, which is now known as Nestlé, and she worked from about four to half nine. I’d kind of gotten clean for her. She’d come home, have a quick bite to eat, check in on us and then off she’d go to 20 miles away to a remote location to help dad out with his takeaway business and either in the kitchen working away to about 2:00 in the morning and then come back home. So it felt like I never saw my family and never saw my parents. I didn’t really think much to it until other people would comment that, Oh, how come your home’s not so nice? So you’ve got red carpets or interior décor is not as nice? Or how can you wear the same clothes all the time? And that hurt a bit as a child growing up because all of a sudden we feel quite inadequate and we recognise that you’re not wealthy. I remember mom instilling the values of it’s very important to pay your debts and get your mortgage cleared, irrespective of what food you’ve got on the table or what luxuries you have prioritised. She just didn’t want to be in debt,
[00:05:17] So it’d get to a point where, you know, I’d go shopping and I’d want chocolate coated digestive
[00:05:21] Biscuits, which were five times more than the ordinary ones, but we couldn’t really afford it and I’d go without. So, I mean, that was OK, I got used to it. That’s the lifestyle I grew up with when I got to about 15. However, tables really changed. It became very difficult, just as I thought life was getting a bit easier on an even platform and we were getting some financial stability. Having mom around a bit more, we decided to buy mom and I decided to get a bike when we decided to learn how to ride a bike. And one August evening she went out on the bike. I was out with some friends. I come home to some crying siblings and the thing Where where are you? Where were you? Where were you? I said, Why? What’s up? My mom’s had an awful accident. She’s in hospital, so I kept calm. I thought, OK, she’s had an accident. She’s in hospital. And I then found out that she had a broken ankle, broken arm and a broken neck. Bush is alive and well in hospital and as far as I was concerned. Great, that’s good, because as long as she’s alive, she’s she’s going to be OK and people heal and everything good
[00:06:35] Until a neighbour
[00:06:37] Kind of broke the news to me. I was 15 and said, Your mom never going to walk again? And I was quite angry, actually, I was like, how dare you say that, how dare you make that judgement and what do you know? And he was actually a nurse, so he had some medical background and said, Well, in that country, she’s got a spinal injury and she’s going to be paralysed neck down and my world just came crashing down. I just couldn’t comprehend what life was going to be like. She was a specialist spinal injuries unit for about eight months. I was really left looking after the kids, then taking myself to school, bringing them home from school, not having a mom at all. And she was in an awful, awful state, mentally, physically. And eventually, when she did get some degree of rehabilitation and brought back home, life really was was never the same. You know, I was a full time carer for her.
[00:07:35] He had choice, you know,
[00:07:37] Simple things like just turning in bed or feeding her a glass of water. Everything had to be done. She could just move her head side to side. And tears would roll down horizon. She couldn’t even wipe them away. So things became very, very difficult. An age where, you know, I was only 15, but from that point I recognised that. I took it upon myself to think, gosh, I’m going to have to be the breadwinner of the family now. You know, I’ve got younger siblings, I’m going to have to raise them. I’m going to have to get money to look after my mom. So career choice became pivotal. And I remember sitting in the Careers Library looking through the Book of Career Jobs and. To put it bluntly, looking at the ones that made the most of which I recall there being stockbroker and dentist and I didn’t quite fancy being a stockbroker because it was not predictable. So I went for dentistry, so that’s why I chose dentistry, really.
[00:08:49] I think from a young age, my
[00:08:50] Dad had instilled into me Be a doctor, be a doctor. Just the typical Asian thing. Coming from York, it was quite conservative, predominantly Caucasian, and I felt some of the teachers did have a stereotypical prejudiced view against me. I was kind of the only Asian kid in school and they weren’t very supportive of my application, which was quite hurtful, so I felt quite alone on my own. And this perhaps, you know, I teach my kids to take risks, challenge authority, push the boundaries, don’t listen to what people always tell you. And I think it started from here. When on the UK’s bomb, there were six spaces and it was recommended that you should only put down five to be medicine or dentistry. The sixth should definitively be something a completely alternative career, because if you’ve not got into five of your applications, it’s highly unlikely know it’ll be wasted, so they have another career option. So I filled in the form my my grades predictions were not so great, so I went with the lowest grade requirements one to five and then six choice. I put down Manchester, which was the highest grade requirement, and I didn’t expect to get in there at all. I remember being very belittled and reprimanded by the head of sixth form saying Almost a stupid girl. Why have you not listened to one to put the six chances Manchester in the school? There’s nothing else I can see myself doing and she kind of touch it and the application went off and I remember waiting for UCAS to get back to me and I heard nothing. Everyone was getting offers and interviews left, right and centre, and one day the mail dropped through the post
[00:10:34] And I put it down to them, saving on postage and
[00:10:38] Giving me the results of five of the applications in one go, which were the first five of rejections. So I really didn’t know what to think. That was obviously the sixth choice remaining, which was Manchester. That’s bound to be a rejection of the first five have rejected me and miraculously, I got an interview from Manchester. I went to it and I recall being surrounded by other candidates who had come from quite supportive backgrounds, parents in the field or they’ve had several interviews, private schools etc. And I was quite unnerved and I thought, Let me just give it my best shot. And unfortunately for me, I got through. Manchester was the place that gamble about sixth place that I put down, and that’s where I got into doing dentistry. So yeah, that that was pivotal to me.
[00:11:27] I became a dentist.
[00:11:29] Wow. So, you know, people go through adversity. I mean, you’ve been through more than most from the sounds of art and tragedy as well. And you know, it’s a cliché to say these things to define you and shape you in it, but they do. Do you do you remember being a confident person all your life? Or did you have to sort of rise to the occasion that you were the only one that people were relying on? Do you remember that moment of deciding that or?
[00:12:05] Yeah, I think I lacked confidence as a child simply through the experiences of feeling inferior through poverty and feeling inadequate. And it kind of leads to even in later years and imposter syndrome kind of thing where you think, Gosh, you know, am I accomplished? You know, how do I compare? Have I really achieved something? Is it true? You know, so but then I think I’ve started doing a lot more introspection, self-reflection analysis and trying to dig deep and understand myself simply so I can also shape my children going forward as well. So that’s been quite an interesting journey for me in recent years.
[00:12:52] And your your kids your natural instinct with your kids is to try and make life easier for them, right? So have you found a way of building in adversity or somehow challenging them to build their confidence? Or or is it is it that I mean, I hope this is the real answer here that your kids will, you know, take on the world on a whole other level then than you did because you know where they came from?
[00:13:19] Yeah, I mean, I
[00:13:21] Wish I could build in adversity, but I think a parent’s natural instinct is to kind of give them everything that one never had. And in doing so, I’m beginning to realise perhaps disappointing them. But I do remind them that had I had the springboard that I could potentially give them now, you know, I would have, you know, gone to crazier heights, you know?
[00:13:42] They’re still young now.
[00:13:44] And you know, let’s let’s hope the take on board some of the messages. But I think building in some degree of adversity is certainly important at the right stages. Quite how I’m going to do that. I don’t know, and I think a lot of these professionals are suffering
[00:13:58] In the same scenarios with our pampered
[00:14:01] Kids, you know?
[00:14:02] So then, Jenny, you you decide you want you get into Manchester and you’re going to go there. What happens with your mum while you’re off at university where your younger siblings, they’re old enough to look after?
[00:14:14] No, they were quite young. So my interesting story. But my younger sister she was for the mum had her accident and now I’m a mum and I have a four year old. But I just think it’s harrowing to lose a mum and what mum must have gone through, just visualising seeing her kids for chaotic manner quite dysfunctional
[00:14:36] Around her mum. We had to get carers. Dad had to pitch in, so I just had to get my head down. I think I’ve got a very laser focussed attention and a determined set drive as a result of having that kind of adversity.
[00:14:54] And that’s perhaps what’s allowed me to
[00:14:57] Kind of be who I am today.
[00:14:59] So what happened, I mean, you left her, did you feel they were going to look after her? Did you feel they were going to have trouble? What was what was the story? What was going through your head?
[00:15:08] Immense guilt, heartbreak, upset. Continually thinking about her emotionally weak. Having to drive down the M62 back to York frequently at the drop of a hat. When issues happened at
[00:15:22] Home with
[00:15:24] Carers and the kids squabbling
[00:15:26] And dad playing up and things
[00:15:27] Like that. So it was very turbulent for me at university, actually. However, I never really let on. No one really knew where. At the same time, it was very hard to get through the exams and ensure I kind of passed at the end of it.
[00:15:41] Did you feel like you were now able to sort of live your childhood when you got to Manchester because you know you’re from from the age of 15? You were, you were kind of an adult? Did you feel like now you could actually go a little bit crazy, live a little bit for you?
[00:15:57] I think you know me pay. I’ve never really been a naughty girl. From my recent weekend meeting, I didn’t have the desire to actually, I think I was mature above my years and I didn’t have the mindset to kind of lift my youth because the reality of the situation was
[00:16:18] The home situation was still the home situation.
[00:16:21] What about Manchester as a city? I mean, you know, York is a beautiful place, but a small place. Did you? Did you not see bright lights, big city sort of feeling?
[00:16:31] Oh yeah, it was a culture shock to me to see people from so many different backgrounds and shops that are open rush on the Curry Mile. So it was vibrant. It was alive. It was very, yeah, it was very nice. It was a good contrast to York, actually.
[00:16:47] How were you the Dental student when you were? You determined to kill it, you know, because you were so responsible and you were going to you were going to do well at everything? Or were you more like me?
[00:16:58] No, I
[00:16:58] Was like, you. I think I really struggled. I doubted myself. I had to study harder than most. And yeah, I don’t think I found it easy at all. We were the bulgar the problem based learning experimental year at Manchester, so it was quite fiercely competitive at the time.
[00:17:17] So then you qualified. Then what was your first job as a dentist? Where was that?
[00:17:24] I’ve been lucky. Or maybe I’ve been perceptive because I’ve learnt a lot from the people that I’ve met along the journey, from the unsung heroes to people who have, say, larger than life profiles along the way. I feel I’ve picked up important lessons, so I did my bit in Manchester and my vet trainer. You know, he wasn’t a massively big personality, but he taught me a lot. So I picked up sedation skills from him. He encouraged me to sit the Ph.D.s at Bristol, which is registered for qualifications after my name, so I got into that straightaway during my year. He also taught me a lot about practise running a practise and business management. Subsequent to that, I then worked for an interesting man called Alan Siegel, actually, and
[00:18:11] He was a prominent businessman in Manchester at the time.
[00:18:14] He actually developed what they call the alma gauge, which is a take on the Willis height gauge and pro Dental matrix matrices, apparently his invention. So it’s a bit of an inventor and an entrepreneur. So I worked for his group of practises and shortly after, I think within about six months of working for him for six months post Viti, I decided to buy my own practise.
[00:18:40] I think that takes some some balls, isn’t it? Six months after VTi. I mean, would you say you’re sort of a pure bred entrepreneur? You’re that person? Or would you say you’ve learnt along the way?
[00:18:55] I think a lot of it was naivete.
[00:18:57] I think I’m quite sensible with finances and from my childhood I’ve learnt not to be overleveraged, which I think has acted to my disadvantage.
[00:19:06] If anything, because I think those that take risks and leverage themselves to a great degree have had great opportunities over the last 20 years, whereas from
[00:19:15] My experiences as a child, I’ve kind of been quite frugal with with my money and expenses. But for me, at that time, it was a simple equation. The cost of a property, a home versus the cost of a practise was very comparable and I thought, Well, the practise is going to give me a greater return than a home. So I did the practise first and then the proceeds from that invested into getting a home.
[00:19:40] So, you know, the mistakes that people make, especially when when you start. I remember when we started enlightened, we got our loan from the bank. Was that 80 grand, and I think I spent it in the first three weeks of it. So did you did you make some? I bet you made an. Mistakes at the beginning of it
[00:20:01] Financially, I don’t think I did that the mistakes I made were more on a air point of view managing staff. I found that a very difficult challenge the practise I bought had been in. It was an NHS practise. It was in the current ownership of the previous owners for the past 40 odd years. And here I was young, new and the existing staff just didn’t like change. And it was managing the personalities being significantly younger than, say, the 40 to 50 year olds than I was. Twenty four. God, you know, that was challenging. Managing people that I’ve never even recognised
[00:20:36] Was something to be overcome. I just thought business of dentistry was,
[00:20:41] Was the finance, the mask, the running, the practise and doing the dentistry. I didn’t understand the the human personalities that had to be managed as well.
[00:20:50] And now now is a seasoned practise owner. Which he put people skills as the number one skill.
[00:20:59] Hundred percent, I think.
[00:21:03] It’s all about the people, I think life’s journey, it’s about the people you meet, the the people you connect with and attracting the right kind of people into your life and bringing out the best in people to work to your advantage. That’s what I’ve learnt over the years to take a step back and try and understand people to bring out the best in them as
[00:21:25] Opposed to meet someone, make judgements and try and change them. There’s no point. I try and move on.
[00:21:32] What was the story of that practise? How many years did you have it for and why did you sell it? And that’s overall.
[00:21:38] Yeah, interesting. I think I made a lot of mistakes on that one. What they call Buster Nash at that time. So as a high grossing NHS dentist for a free meal, which is quite rare, I think once again pivotal character many of you may have heard of or know Vijay from Ivo Dental now. I met him very early on in my journey, actually, and I class him as
[00:21:59] A good friend who you know is an incredible man, very generous with his help and knowledge and assistance.
[00:22:06] He guided me on how to kind of understand the NHS
[00:22:09] System and the workings.
[00:22:11] So I was a high grossing dentist. I think I burnt out. It was that initial euphoria. While I’m a dentist, I’ve
[00:22:18] Got income coming in. Let’s just work every hour I’ve got and maximise on the potential which I did.
[00:22:26] I didn’t understand the significant
[00:22:29] Damages of being burnt out.
[00:22:32] I ran it for about five years. I actually took it from the fee per item system to the then PBS contracts and I negotiated with the PCT. And I think I was quite confident. I was quite good at negotiations and I got a really good contract in that era, which was at that time. Back in 2006, it was £42 per ooda. Wow. Can you imagine that and what they’re paying associates are now, so I know what was available
[00:23:02] And what maybe many principals have managed to get as the true value.
[00:23:09] But I hit a point in in life where I was exhausted and my perceptions of money were quite simplistic. Actually, by that time, I had a few properties that were all paid off. I paid off my practise. My wants and desires were very simple. So, you know, living in a I feel embarrassed to say this, actually, but maybe I shouldn’t. You know, at that time, for example, I lived in a three bed end terrace house. I had a Toyota Corolla car that was paid off brand new
[00:23:38] And the house was all paid off. And I had a few other investment properties
[00:23:42] And I thought, You know, I’m happy, I’ve got no mortgage. I’ve got nothing. I can sell the practise and I can have a decent amount in the bank. I’m happy to retire now. That’s it. I’m done. And I was about twenty six, twenty seven and being a female, my biological clock was ticking and I thought, This is it.
[00:24:01] I’m happy to be a housewife and have some kids now and I’ve done my bit.
[00:24:05] I’m retiring early and I moved down south to be
[00:24:09] With my husband, who had always commuted to his. His work was London centric.
[00:24:15] And I started a family and had a couple of children. And this will maybe resonate with some of the female listeners. The challenges of
[00:24:22] Work life balance, family, children.
[00:24:26] What I found was incredibly hard being a driven, intellectually stimulated person was that once you become a mom, it’s like you lose your identity and your self-esteem and you lose your sense of purpose. Almost, although being a mom is a wonderful thing and I lost my confidence. And it takes it can take its toll on your marriage,
[00:24:48] Where you’re more
[00:24:49] Demanding of your husband and you want them to be around and you want them to be tied to the kids as much as you are. And I felt I had no purpose. Actually, I tried to apply for some associate jobs in and around London, and I found the London circuit quite challenging, actually. There’s a wide range of principals who there’s a lot of sharks out there. Let’s put it that way, and I struggle to do the kind of dentistry I wanted to do. Pair that also with my eyes opening up to people’s financial earnings. My peers and people who are smashing it on a private circuit. And I thought, Oh my gosh, what I have perhaps is inadequate. Perhaps it’s not enough to sustain me through the needs of my family and children going forward. And that then gave me another drive to to start again. So, yeah, I was down in London and my husband was in quite a high profile job and I was hardly seeing him, and here I was lumbered with a couple
[00:25:52] Of kids and
[00:25:53] I felt I wanted to be back near Mom York. Then the leafy greens suburbs of York became very appealing from a school’s point of view, from a safety. Just a nice place to live, really. It was home. I was familiar with it, so I decided to gravitate back up north. And it was a massive risk because a friend advised me, If you’re going to do private, make sure your dentist is spot on, you know, as good as it can could possibly be. And in that time there weren’t many courses available, so I ploughed an incredible amount of money into
[00:26:31] Doing all the courses I possibly could. The ones that I deemed were quite credible at the time
[00:26:36] Simultaneously without a job to put the knowledge into practise. And then I set up a squat in New York.
[00:26:44] So let’s start, you know, I want to go back to a few things. Number one, in five years you had that practise, you pay the practise of your house of a couple of investment properties of did I get that right?
[00:26:58] Yeah, I had about four properties paid off on the practise. I owned the freehold of the practise as well.
[00:27:05] Bloody of that. Okay. And I guess you were also supporting mum in that period and some of your siblings as well?
[00:27:13] Yeah, I helped Mom buy some kind of investment property as well, so I made sure she was kind of financially secure with some passive income.
[00:27:20] Oh, how hard were you bashing the dash? That’s why?
[00:27:27] Well, I’ve told you my UDR contract value. So at that
[00:27:30] Time. Okay. And then dispel this one for me, the north and the south. You know that you said there are sharks down south or they’re not sharks up north.
[00:27:42] I don’t think the sharks
[00:27:42] Everywhere, to be honest. I’ve learnt that with time. A friend of mine terms some people smiling as Huffins. You know, there’s a lot of people out there, but you’ve got to be careful and and figure out the authentic people, the person.
[00:27:55] That’s a serious matter. The serious question. Do you find it easier with northern patients? And I mean, I found London quite a difficult town to be a dentist in. I was I was a dentist in Kent, and that was, you know, people were respectful. Maybe there were an older group of patients. It is always the better group, I think. But you know, what are your what are your reflections on London patients versus northern patients? You know that banter thing that people talk about from the North and how you know we see it as it is that whole thing is it is it rubbish or is it real?
[00:28:28] No, I think it’s real. I think people up north are more friendly horror of the Northerners, see? And it’s simple economic fundamentals. I think in London, the cost of living is high. You’ve got to travel. You’re more fatigued. People are just a bit more down in the dumps. They’re not earning as much irrespective of the London weighting, and the money doesn’t go as far. So in terms of disposable income is likely to be a lot less for the majority of the population. Yes, there’s the upper echelons who have got a
[00:28:57] Phenomenal amount of money and you can tap into that market, but that’s
[00:29:01] Few practises. You know, the general practise, what I found from
[00:29:06] Principals over there were
[00:29:08] I struggled to find a practise who was prepared to invest in the right materials and the tools. I was buying my own gear to try and deliver the right dentistry. People were reluctant to pay you properly, you know, making excuses, you know? So I found it. They think, Well, these
[00:29:27] Hard going from principal to associate, though?
[00:29:30] Yes, but no. Even today, I would love to be an associate if I was an associate in the kind of practise set up. I have a nice practise. You know, it’s about mutual respect and having the right set up to work and to be productive, really.
[00:29:48] Ok, so you know, we all know how well we don’t all know, but fresh, fresh Dental, you know, right now, massively successful practise. But tell me about the beginning. So it was a squat one. You had no patience. Fully private. Is that right or all?
[00:30:02] Yes, it
[00:30:03] Was. I mean, everyone talks about location, location, location correctly. So, but my location was based on wherever I could acquire a freehold and it had to be quick. I had a a two year old and a four year old around my ankles, and I was scrubbing the floors, cleaning up the plaster project, managing it, and it was at the back of beyond. There is no footfall where I’m based. It’s, you know, in a village kind of T-junction end of end of the road kind of Jungle Place. Which year was it
[00:30:37] That you started?
[00:30:39] Started 2009
[00:30:41] 2009. So no patients. What do you do,
[00:30:46] No patients, so I made sure my cost was minimal, to be honest, I had several quotes and I project managed it myself in the end with local builders, from plumbing to plastering to building walls, everything. And I got the cost down to a fraction, say one fifth of initial quotes. So I knew at the end of the day that I’d refurbish a derelict building. So worst case scenario, my exit was I could sell that and it would have really appreciated compared to what I paid for it. So I knew the risks were low in that sense. And then it was truly about customer service and delivering outstanding care and treatment so you can grow organically through word of mouth. I don’t believe there’s any anything as get rich quick and you know you could do a treatment modality. I don’t know, let’s say composite bonding. And if you’re not good at executing it well. For example, I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there who do it exceptionally well, but let’s say you’re doing it very rapidly to slam dunk it and get the cases in your work will soon fall apart and your reputation will become tarnished. And you can’t build a sound future on Rocky Foundation. So I think generally your dentistry
[00:31:53] Has to be good and your ethics have to be right.
[00:31:58] Yeah, no doubt about that. But but I really am interested in day one. No patients. What happened? What did you do to get patients
[00:32:05] Websites pay per click in those days? And that was it.
[00:32:11] That was at least what were
[00:32:12] You running that yourself? Were you running the ads and things yourself? Did you learn that that skill as well?
[00:32:19] No, I had someone doing doing it for me that you probably know very well, and he was very good. But I think that person also was on their journey of progression and things can go up and down. And then once I realised that how frail things can be, I started studying it for myself to understand the voodoo black hat. You know, the like what black magic, the black magic behind SEO and everything? Because I thought, Damn, I need to study this because everyone’s pulling the wool out of your eyes and charging your fortunes. I need to understand
[00:32:52] The fundamentals of what goes on because there was never
[00:32:55] Any guarantees
[00:32:55] Of anything, which is understandable.
[00:32:58] So you were single handed at that point.
[00:33:01] Yes, I was.
[00:33:03] So then what’s the progression? How did it go from there? How did it get to this? I mean, you know what? Give us the full story now. Where are you? How many members of staff? How many specialists? What have you got right now?
[00:33:14] Yeah. Now, thankfully, it’s really turned the corner and we’re
[00:33:18] Doing really well. We’ve got a great team
[00:33:20] And we can offer all treatment modalities at an exceptional level
[00:33:24] Because I believe in investing in the practise and all the mod cons
[00:33:27] And empowering your team to deliver the very best. But it wasn’t smooth sailing. I think I’ve had
[00:33:32] Some bad luck. I took
[00:33:34] On an associate who was straight out of vet that kind of failed the final
[00:33:39] Year exams and missed the vet tranche, so I paid out of my own pocket. I think twenty eight thousand at that
[00:33:45] Time to pay them to watch me work and learn private skills, you know, which is a great opportunity. And maybe I was a bit naive and I wanted to kind of whet the appetite as to what was possible. I kind of mentored them in implants. Small makeovers. Also, everything that I’d learnt, I said, Let me give you an introduction to it. However, you
[00:34:08] Must augment all of this with proper training and courses.
[00:34:13] I don’t know how much I should say, really, but this person was was phenomenal at
[00:34:17] Learning and taking on board things.
[00:34:21] And I felt confident in a few years to kind of have my third child. I hit 40 and it was a bit of a birthday party challenge. You know, I’d got back into fitness and someone said, You know, how dare you? Can you? Can you have a child? Yes. So, so I did. And when I went off on maternity, I remember, you know, doing implant surgery the day before my C-section and putting ortho a couple of days beforehand and patients saying to me, But Jenny, when are you going to be back as a don’t you worry, I’ll be back for your eight week review, you know? So I had the C-section planned and I was still hopping in and out of the practise, the bare minimum that I could. I needed to take time off. So things were in charge of this associate who, you know, I trusted. And then all of a sudden one day I get an email and it says, dear so-and-so further to your email. We have transferred X thousands into the BACS details given, and the email was from a patient CC to the practise. And I thought, that’s strange. Why is the patient ceasing the practise
[00:35:32] Of not emailing the practise direct
[00:35:34] On a scroll down the chain of emails? And we used to take BACS payments for large payments because it’s easy for
[00:35:40] Them to deposit straight into the person’s bank account.
[00:35:43] When I scroll down, it was the associates BACS details. Wow. There was a chain of communication that was kind of almost grooming the patient
[00:35:52] Into believing that this was the done thing and
[00:35:56] An intention to deceive by saying, Please don’t email
[00:35:59] The practise. We’re having problems with our email. Email me direct. I’ll be able to look after you better and give you a more customised service. Here’s my personal contact number. Blah blah blah. And I couldn’t believe it. I was like,
[00:36:11] Is this really what I’m saying?
[00:36:13] Did you? Did you consider the guy honest and a friend and, you know, mentee and order
[00:36:20] To be given the opportunity? And I did consider him honest.
[00:36:24] But I think there’s a real danger of putting a Ferrari in the hands of someone a bit young and naive, and perhaps greed, perhaps complacency and not appreciating what one has. When I read on the forums now of other dentists say on Dental Dental forum, you know the anonymous posts of this real struggles people are having. And I think, gosh, where were these people, you know, you know, there’s a lot of good people out there who just don’t give them given the opportunities. And here I was, I gave the opportunity
[00:36:54] To someone who completely trashed
[00:36:56] It. Yeah, but looking back on it? Were there maybe some signs that you didn’t see or you chose not to see? Or was it completely out of the blue?
[00:37:07] Yeah, I think there were some signs on reflection now they were coming in late to work. They were not doing their clinical notes. I was saying, you know, will you please do your clinical notes? Yeah, yeah, I’ve done it. And then I print out a list. Look, all these notes have been done. Please do it before you leave and they’d leave the door and say, Have you done any clinical notes? And they’d say, Yep, all done bare faced lying. And then a week later, I’d go and check nothing had been done. And then I’d say, Look, if you want to take time off, that’s fine. As long as we’re not rearranging patients, you know, in short notice. And then they’d call me up and say, Oh, you know, Jenny, can I just have this Friday off?
[00:37:43] There’s only two check ups. And I was like, Oh, OK, I’m just rearrange it.
[00:37:46] But later they’d been calling all the patients and moving things. So there were telltale signs.
[00:37:53] What did you do?
[00:37:54] What did I do? I was in shock. I called my indemnity first and I said initially to me, it smacked of theft, you know? And the indemnity said, you have to involve the police on this and you need to tell the GDC. And I was reluctant to kind of tell the GDC, but I had to involve the police to kind of get to the bottom of this. What was uncovered was far worse because when I went in, it was no longer theft. Although there was, you know, I had to take over the patient list with immediate effect and review all the patients. There were no clinical notes and there were no accounts, and I had to kind of tactfully speak to each patient, know what have you had done? Where are you up to new treatment? Can you remind me without me having to checking your notes? You know, how much have you paid so far, what you quoted? And then it all unnerved. Oh yeah, I gave nine hundred pound cash and you know, to did you give it to front desk? No, I gave it to this person, and I thought it was a bit odd because it put it straight into his back pocket. And I was like, Did you not think to mention it to reception? And they were like, Well, no, they said they were like a self-employed hairdresser and this was the done thing, you know, I deal with them direct.
[00:39:03] So Jenny, Jenny, Jenny, so sorry to interrupt you, but is that is it possible to pull that off without the nurse being on side as well?
[00:39:11] I think it’s yeah, I did question this, but I think people trusted in him implicitly. They thought he was just a really lovely person, very humble, duped us all. And I think it’s easier to seek that opportunity whereby they were liaising directly with patients via private email, communication, phone calls. And it’s very easy to say to the nurse, Oh, can you just nip down and, you know, get that from the printer or, you know, just a couple of minutes in the room, you know, it’s confidential. I don’t know. I don’t know what went on, but I mean, initially it was theft. But then what hit me afterwards and the theft completely paled into insignificance was the amount of neglect, clinical negligence. Oh no. And that was heartbreaking. You know, I was faced with an aftermath of implants placed into peril mouths the fast track. I’m not naming a system, but a kind of fast track ortho donor whereby a quick kind of offered an whereby teeth were not correctly aligned and composite bonding was very badly slapped all over without patient consent. They thought they had straight teeth.
[00:40:18] They were then coming back in retainers, not putting teeth, continuing to move, composite chipping off
[00:40:23] And a whole lot of vicarious liability issues. So something which had painfully built up over a long period of time was was really burnt to the ground and trashed in a bad way.
[00:40:34] What happened to him?
[00:40:36] What happened to him is still going on. It’s yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s all in the pipeline at the moment. Let’s see what happens. Yeah.
[00:40:45] So, you know, I was going to ask you, what was your sort of worst moment with a with an employee or a member of staff? But I guess that’s that one is that
[00:40:58] Mean the
[00:40:58] Worst really is when I was recovering from a C-section, you know, and not so well, baby as well. That was that was very difficult time.
[00:41:08] What about clinically was what was your hardest case clinically or your most difficult patient or something that went wrong that you know, you can, you know, we do it from we ask everyone this question, something people can learn from
[00:41:22] Clinically what I’ve learnt over the years, it really is down to patient management. It’s down to communication, it’s down to managing expectations before you do anything. And it’s the relationships and the rapport that you build with patients. I think if you get that on a firm footing. Fingers crossed you tend to be OK. Just a quick reflection back on you’re saying, you know, is it any different north to south and dentistry? I get patients travelling from from London and abroad and wherever as we all do, I’m sure. But patients often comment, Gosh, you’re more expensive than Harley Street, you know, but the pay, it’s fine, you know? So the opportunities are there, so going back to a bad experience, I remember when I first started on my implant journey, it’s quite a male dominated circuit and people say, Oh, you can, you know, shoot and implant in from across the room.
[00:42:13] You know, these egos
[00:42:15] That Typekit the same rights with anything and it’s dead easy and you just bang them in and Wasserman blah blah blah blah. And that kind of gets into your mindset and you think, Oh, OK, let’s just was it in. So I remember putting a 12 millimetre implant into mandibular region, and at that time we didn’t have CT scanners.
[00:42:34] It was OPG with
[00:42:36] A ball bearing and I’ve popped it in and right. Let’s just talk it right down. Get it one millimetre of crystal. None, the patient. I’ll give them my personal number. This was a Friday, Saturday. I’m at the gym doing a class.
[00:42:51] My phone rings, it’s the patient.
[00:42:53] And she said, I think she’s just going to talk about soreness or some antibiotic regime or something, which says, Jenny, the numbness is still there. My heart just sinks. Yeah. So I was like, Gosh, what do I do? And I was quite early on in my journey then.
[00:43:18] But she
[00:43:18] Was it.
[00:43:19] It was a lower right.
[00:43:21] Six Yeah. So then what happened? What do you do next?
[00:43:26] Yeah. So I thought, that’s really done for my career’s ended. She’s going to sue me. What do I do? So it was about conscious management research, and we cannot always look after the patient being honest with her and just managing her every step of the way that patients subsequently is a very good friend of mine. She gives me birthday presents. She’s brilliant. She’s great. So it just goes to show that I think it’s down to patient management can make a massive difference as to how you can navigate.
[00:44:01] Yeah, that sounds like something that went right, really.
[00:44:05] I’m more interested in something you do get rid of. There’s no doubt about it.
[00:44:09] Yeah, but I’m interested in something that went wrong from the management perspective. I mean, you’ve managed that one very well. I’m I mentioned something that went wrong
[00:44:17] And a recent lesson I’d say, and I don’t know whether it’s gone
[00:44:21] Wrong. I’m very cautious about treating lawyers.
[00:44:26] I think I’ve treated loads of lawyers, you know, I found them brilliant, but go on.
[00:44:31] Yeah, I’ve got a couple of lawyer patients who were
[00:44:35] Clearly quite clever.
[00:44:36] Yeah, and so there was a patient I treated with eye treatment, plant him for a two unit cantilever and a single crown on the roof.
[00:44:50] And it was a central in size and a lateral cantilever and a single crown on the three. And that’s what he’d been treatment planned for, sent it to the lab and had a discussion with the technician. And this was about 10 years ago and the technician said, No, Jenny, you need to just make it a three unit bridge, which I said, Yeah, fair doesn’t make sense. No. So I made it through Unit Bridge, fitted it, you know, didn’t really discuss it with the patient because I thought, Well, it’s insignificant to the aesthetic outcome,
[00:45:16] And the cost is the same for you. So it’s kind of irrelevant. The outcomes are the same.
[00:45:21] And then 10 years down the line, obviously, there’s a lot of occlusal factors in this patients in a
[00:45:27] Regular attender as well.
[00:45:29] There’s a fracture in the bridge between the the two and the three. The the bridge is fractured. And, you know, I said to the patient, You know what? Ordinarily, I’d kind of let’s plan a replacement for this. However, the prognosis of the three isn’t so great
[00:45:46] Anymore, and you’re better off looking at some sort of implant solution.
[00:45:51] But what I will do for you is kind of re
[00:45:53] Credit half the cost of what you’ve had done towards the implant treatment plant
[00:45:58] And they went away to think about it. I didn’t hear anything. Eight months later, they asked for all their records.
[00:46:05] But I think here we go and give them the records didn’t hear anything. I thought maybe they’d just gone to another
[00:46:11] Dentist and then another. Eight months later, I get some medical legal letters.
[00:46:17] And what they feel aggrieved about is I didn’t consent them properly for doing the three unit bridge as opposed to what they’d initially agreed to. But they’ve written in their letter of complaint that they’re happy not to press further charges as long as I personally continue to treat them and do all their implant treatment free of charge. And what did you do? I said on I said, let’s
[00:46:47] Take this all the way to
[00:46:48] The lawyer. You said that, right?
[00:46:50] Yeah, yeah. You know, because I think it’s incredibly unreasonable. Personally, I think about 10 years use of that bridge.
[00:46:59] So then what then?
[00:47:01] Well, then this is going through the motions. Oh, is
[00:47:03] That is that happening right now? You’ve got both issues that
[00:47:09] I why pick on lawyers?
[00:47:10] I was eating an implant the other day and it was on a lateral with very little bone. And I’d seen this person pre-COVID and then COVID hit
[00:47:20] And there were a lawyer and there were being very kind of frugal about money. And my gut instinct said, you know, I’d really rather not treat this. And then COVID hit. We kind of cancelled all the patients and didn’t end up kind of touching base with this patient again. We left the ball
[00:47:38] In their court to get
[00:47:39] In touch and cope. It’s been two and a half years. This patient’s back in the diary, what’s it doing? And I think, Oh, well, there’s this fate.
[00:47:46] Clearly, we’ll do it. So I’ll look in the mouth
[00:47:48] And say, you know, you do realise you’ve got quite
[00:47:51] A few units that are missing just generally around your mouth. But we’ve comprehensive treatment planning.
[00:47:57] This is just about before I’m about to do implant surgery. And he says, Oh yeah, that was my old dentist. You know, he did a root canal and it it done x y z. And, you know, after about six years, it failed. And he did a botched job and blah blah blah just really slamming his own dentist. And I just kept quiet and I gulped and I thought, This doesn’t sound right. And then I just said to him, So did you. Progress matters. I said, Did you pursue him? I just said, How did things progress? And he goes, Yeah, sued the bastard. I got a huge payout and it’s paid the deposit for my house, and I was like,
[00:48:37] Oh my God, the
[00:48:39] What happened? Did you treat him?
[00:48:41] Yeah, because I had to.
[00:48:43] I never went Well,
[00:48:45] Yeah, thank God. Well, let’s see. We’ll still trying to set two years down the line. Who knows,
[00:48:51] He’s actually doing the kind of work you do. It’s it’s high risk workers there. I mean that I’ve had a bunch of very high-profile implanted artists on this show, and all of them have a story to tell. Do you? Does it get easier? Do you know as the years go on and your experience gets more? I know it’s never easy. It’s never easy to get a complaint, is it? That’s never
[00:49:18] Easy. No, it’s not easy. But I think with the associate issue, I got used to handling about 30 complaints that were quite serious complaints. I’m quite seasoned at that. I think with Time Warner becomes a bit more humble and recognises how much more we’ve yet to learn.
[00:49:36] I think people don’t talk about their failures and issues as
[00:49:40] Much as perhaps we should, because it’s it’s a great learning opportunity. I think the
[00:49:45] The implant circuit is certainly male dominated and it can be full of some egos. There’s some very nice personalities out there as well, and that kind of makes one shy away from maybe discussing
[00:49:58] Failures and shortcomings.
[00:50:00] I used to lose sleep. I used to want to give up almost. But then implant dentistry is something that you invest more and
[00:50:07] More in, and the more you invest, you’re in at the deep end and you’ve got to kind of do or die and make it work and just go for it, really.
[00:50:15] So I kind of forced myself to do
[00:50:17] A lot of training, try and get some qualifications. Even when I was pregnant, I made use of. It’s all about efficiency for me, making use of that time and the Royal College of Surgeons exams was sitting was in Dubai at that time, so I flew out to sit my exams there. I remember the being at that time, it was quite tough set of exams to get through. I think we were the second cohort for Edinburgh and 11 international candidates and only three of us passed. Luckily, I was one of them, so that was good. So you just have to push yourself, really?
[00:50:49] What’s your advice for for a woman who wants to get into implant ology? I mean, tell me about it. When you say it’s male dominated, is it is it that the sort of the back slapping gung ho not admitting to your failures male domination? Is that what you mean by male? I know it’s more men than women, but but but but culturally, what does that mean culturally?
[00:51:12] I think along the lines of what you said, that’s the impression I think a lot of us females get. And I think the bottom line is that there are not many females in it. I think the cost entry points to a high considering what females tend to have to do with the family life and the work life balance is much harder to kind of get into that realm of work.
[00:51:34] Yeah, but but if there were loads of women implant managers out there? Are we saying what would be different, would would are you really saying people would be discussing their failures more?
[00:51:45] I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it’s a human thing discussing one’s shortcomings, failures, issues, insecurities, whatever you want to call it. I think people tend to be quite guarded in whatever capacity I think we should change up.
[00:52:03] I mean, I can imagine the men will say, you know, my implant drill is bigger than yours. Sort of, you know, men men have a way of do it, particularly surgeons, you know, surgeons in general, they’re that way inclined. What would you say to a woman who wants to get into an implant, ology now? What should she do?
[00:52:24] I think you should find mentors that you’re very comfortable with, people that are going to kind of build your confidence, empower you and kind of help you in your journey. I met a woman called Karen McDermott. She’s an unsung hero. She’s retired now. She was one of the first females in England doing implant dentistry. She’s on a par and good friends with Ashok Sethi and Sharma, so she’s of that generation and she mentored me and she really
[00:52:53] The times when I had down days she’d rock up at the practise and be there just to kind of support me. She was brilliant, you know, and she’s not one that’s kind of in-your-face and showing off and exuberant. She’s just an unsung hero. So I think you need to come across the right kind of people that are going to be supportive of you.
[00:53:14] But, OK, listen, I don’t know enough about it to explain it to me. When you say find a mentor is a mentor, someone who out of the kindness of their heart is helping you or is a mentor someone you pay to help you, or it’s going to be both.
[00:53:27] And I never found any.
[00:53:30] I think, well, I think there’s people that are generous with their knowledge to varying degrees and whether it be a phone call, a discussion or. Watching them and then there are people you’ve got today as well, understandably so, because they’re taking the day out to come and assist you and you pay fees to varying degrees, and that’s why the entry level costs are quite high. To kind of understand the game and the skill, I used a variety of mentors and people in my journey because I think as opposed to using the same mentor all the time, you can learn different skills. Everyone does it differently. Yeah.
[00:54:08] So break it down for me. What do I do? I’m a twenty nine year old associate. I want to. I want to become an implant ologist, find someone who’s very experienced and say, Can I watch? And then what do of course you do?
[00:54:24] I probably say, Don’t do implants.
[00:54:25] I’d say,
[00:54:28] Yeah, why? Because I think everyone’s jumped onto the implant bandwagon when
[00:54:32] You say everyone, but it’s very everyone jumped on to a line bleach bond, right? That’s what everyone jumped on to implant.
[00:54:39] There’s a greater volume of people that need B as compared to implants. I think there’s I think it does great. I think to where is
[00:54:49] Great, I think lost. Should I say there’s lots of other modalities and I think implants, there’s a lot of people teaching it and they’re making money. It’s a business of teaching Dental implants, so it’s in their interest to get more people doing it. But I think the risks are quite high. The learning curve is steep for an associate, is difficult investment and getting your structure and set up with the nurses and the sepsis and everything. There’s a lot to it and a lot of stress. So you have to be passionate, you have to be determined and you have to be carefully considered and sure that that’s something you’re going to do. What I have heard is there’s a lot of people that Double-Double done training and implant dentistry and haven’t continued it forward. There’s many people who’ve done it but not taking it any further, which is understandable as well.
[00:55:33] Yeah. Well, I definitely wasn’t expecting you to hear you say that. I mean, one minute you’re saying male dominated. I’m saying woman wants to get involved, ask for your help and you’re saying you would say, Don’t do it, let’s be.
[00:55:46] I’m sorry, I’m sorry. I thought you said
[00:55:48] What we say to anyone wanting to do it. I didn’t realise, well, OK.
[00:55:51] But it’s an interesting response here. You’re saying, really don’t do it unless you’re very, very serious. Yeah, yeah, that’s what you’re saying.
[00:55:58] Ok, I think you have to be you have to consider it carefully understand. I think a lot of people are misconceived implants to be a big, big money spinner. Let’s get into it because I’m going to make a ton of money. I think you have to understand that the learning curve is steep and it’s long.
[00:56:15] And now you kind of teach on some of these implant courses to yourself.
[00:56:20] No, not not most of it, I think now where I’m at. Interestingly, in my
[00:56:26] I’ve done the growth, the learning, the journey, the business, the practise set up, the private practise, female kids. I feel if you’ve heard of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I really feel a point in my life where I think I’ve got enough. I’m really content financially and I want to kind of give back and
[00:56:49] Empower other people in whatever capacity I can.
[00:56:52] And when I was younger, money was important. And it’s a natural tendency to want to show that money off beat by a flash car, whether
[00:57:00] It’s because you enjoy driving it or whether you want to show it on designer clothes or whatever,
[00:57:05] It might be adversely for me. Conversely, for me, it’s I’ve gone the opposite. I feel that I don’t really have a desire to kind of exhibit wealth. My needs have become a lot more modest. You know, I’m on a dieting programme where hardly anything now, so I can’t even spend it on fine food. So for me, the driver’s isn’t money in finances anymore, but more connecting with people, giving back teaching, empowering networking. And I really love people. I think I like understanding people, and I feel that from a business point of view as well, I create synergistic partnerships, so I connect with people, try and identify their strengths and go into business along those lines. So if I tell you, you know, I’ve had a chicken and chip shop, I’ve had a car wash bed and breakfast holiday lets HMO student bills, property development. Wow, just various things. And it’s diversification. It makes life quite interesting.
[00:58:12] You mean you’ve partnered with people to do these these things?
[00:58:17] Yeah, I’ve been the majority shareholder. I’ve kind of had them running the business at the front end,
[00:58:24] So I’ve kind of vested in them.
[00:58:26] But what was your advice for someone who wants to do that? I mean, I find there’s a big trust issue there. Do you find do you find your finding your sort of buying into the person rather than the business? Is that the key thing?
[00:58:41] Yeah, you’re buying into the person. You’re trying to read the strengths of the person and you’re playing to their strengths and harnessing them on a platform that
[00:58:50] Can make it work for you.
[00:58:52] So, for example, the car wash business, you know, I had a bit of land, nothing was being done with it and had the adequate drainage new. An Eastern European guy was
[00:59:01] Really hard working, really wanted to do something, but just didn’t know what helped set him up. He runs it
[00:59:07] Off. It goes and he’s happy forever and a day, and then he’s got his team below him doing what they do best.
[00:59:14] How much does a business like that make?
[00:59:16] I shouldn’t go into figures, but
[00:59:18] I won’t say exactly, but I’m interested, I mean, there’s a chicken. Chicken and chips place make more money than a car wash, please.
[00:59:25] Depends how it’s run. Depends how it’s marketed. You get peaks and troughs. Ultimately, they are very profitable businesses. And for me, the main thing is it’s hands off. It’s passive income, you know? So, you know, there was a book that said, you know, if you invest in a business and it only makes you a pound, it really doesn’t matter because invest in ten thousand of those and you still don’t. Ok. You know, but it’s simple business models that are easy
[00:59:50] Recruit for chicken and chips, for example,
[00:59:53] There’s not much on the menu, so not a lot.
[00:59:56] No, no, Jenny. Let’s be serious here. How many hours a week do you spend on the car wash business? Is it not even one?
[01:00:06] No. I just go and pick up the monthly money. That’s it, really.
[01:00:11] I just, yeah, I’m fine.
[01:00:13] But to be honest that that that is very much a side hustle. I think what I prefer is the holiday lets the bed and breakfast, the HMOs, the student lets. I think that’s that’s much more interesting. And there’s one guy in particular partner with
[01:00:26] And he runs all of that operation and we have weekly meetings.
[01:00:30] And I find that really interesting. Different.
[01:00:33] I mean, I was going to ask, you know, with that five years of the NHS, you did all of that. So what are you doing with all the money money now? I guess that’s what you do. What are your plans for the future, Jenny?
[01:00:44] Someone said to me, I’m very modest myself. I drive a very basic car. I wear very simple clothes for those that know me. I don’t want to think about what I have to wear on a morning. I’m quite petite, so I find clothes quite difficult to fit. So ironically, you know, I don’t have time and I went into Sports Direct and there’s a pair of track bottoms that fitted fine. So I went and bought
[01:01:03] 20 of them.
[01:01:04] So. And I thought on, I odd until I looked at, is it Mark Zuckerberg? He has kind of like 50 white t shirts and hoodies and just thought, Hey, that’s not bad at all. So, you know, when people see me in the same truck bombs, they do get washed different pairs. But someone said to me, You know, for me, the focus is my children now bringing them up right as good human beings. They will be my Gucci handbags and shoes, you know, that will be my desire. Designer adornments, my focus is, is giving back. And when I’ve looked for fulfilment in the journey of my life, initially, it’s been, you know, I want to be recognised for being successful or a business
[01:01:48] Owner or I want to be recognised for being wealthy.
[01:01:52] And I’ve realised for me a lot of that’s fickle and it doesn’t bring me fulfilment, and I couldn’t think of anything more
[01:01:59] Obscene than I think. It just wouldn’t be
[01:02:01] Fitting me if I was to drive around
[01:02:02] In an exuberant car or bling bling. I just feel very awkward and uncomfortable because
[01:02:09] That’s not me. And would it? Would that bring me happiness? I don’t know. Yes, I’d get attention. Would it be the right kind of attention of people really happy for you? Or does that elicit feelings of discontentment in others, inadequacy in others? People feeling jealous? Is that really what I want to be doing? So I’ve kind of reflected, and it started off to be honest, where the time when I had real struggles with my business and the associates shenanigans. There was one particular staff member and she’d only been with
[01:02:42] Me two years, so she was 60 years old. So she’s kind of at the end of her career
[01:02:46] And she’d had a hard life. She had three kids that she’d raised on
[01:02:49] Her own, and
[01:02:50] No one had ever kind of helped her out. She was made redundant from her previous job. She’d only been with me two years, and she had this old clapped out banner that finally failed its MOTY. And she kept saying to me at that time I drove a Kia Picanto
[01:03:05] And she said, Jenny, would you really please tell me your your car? I’d love a small car like yours, and I said, I really can’t sell you it because
[01:03:14] If anything goes wrong with it, I’d feel guilty. So she’s about to buy a second hand
[01:03:19] Used car, and I think, Oh, here we go, because this is going to give them nothing but trouble, potentially in terms of financial costs.
[01:03:26] And I went out and I spent £8000 on a brand new, well, a one year old Kia Picanto, and I gave her the keys. I said, Here you go,
[01:03:37] That’s for you. And I think many other people would have kept the new one for themselves and given her the old one.
[01:03:42] But it felt great. And to this day, you know, she’s still with me. She’s phenomenal. She cares for me so much and the business. And when I calculate it back, actually, it’s nothing
[01:03:54] More than having given a pound pay rise over so many years, you know,
[01:03:59] But that impact and that definitive difference it made in her life was incredible, and that fills
[01:04:06] Me with happiness, warmth,
[01:04:09] Fulfilment and what I’ve realised the act of giving, whether you’re giving
[01:04:13] Knowledge, support. Confidence to others, empowering others, it is very fulfilling for me.
[01:04:21] So, yeah, that’s where I’m at, really. I want to kind of give back to others and happy to help.
[01:04:27] Yeah, I mean, it’s one of the joys of work, isn’t it? Especially owning a business has so many difficulties, but that’s one of the lovely things about it is watching people grow and watching people be happier. Work for me is the most important thing for me, the team, my happier work. It has over the years. For me, it’s gone wrong as well, though, you know there are things that go wrong at work. Would you give some top tips or top tips that you would say for keeping staff happy, motivating people? I mean, if that’s true, it’s difficult. There’s no there’s no career pathway or not much of a career pathway for nurses and receptionists. How do you keep them motivated?
[01:05:07] Yeah, I think it’s it’s Dental leadership. It’s down to what you’re like as a boss. I think for me, I truly care. I’m sincere about my staff. I’m flexible with them. And yeah, there’s not career progression. But you know, as I grow financially as a person, they get remunerated very well as a result in time, and they’re aware of that. They understand that we grow together and the way I look at it is, you know, I’m very comfortable now and my kids don’t want for anything. But I was once in that position where, you know, I did desire and I didn’t have those chocolate, McVitie’s or whatever it was. And I look at my stuff and I think they’ve got kids, you know, their kids will desire these, you know, little luxuries and they deserve to have it. Why not? You know, life is short and we have so much as dentists. We are well-to-do relative to other professions. So I kind of definitely do remunerate them in in many ways, not just financially, and they feel loved and looked after. So, you know, they’re doing very well within the remit and the restrictions of their career pathways. And one has to accept there is a level of blue collar workers that will always be blue collar workers, you know, so not everyone that stacked shelves can kind of climb up sky high and not everyone wants to, either. But it’s making life as as as comfortable and pleasant and a joy to come into work, really. That’s what I like to do.
[01:06:39] Well, I know I know that that’s you know, what drives you. Speaking to you at Vietnam time, we saw each other definitely do the bit on connexion. I could just see your eyes lighting up when when people were asking questions and and with team as well. I’m sure you’re very strong on that side. So what are you going to do with this practise? Are you going to do more of them? What’s your five year plan?
[01:07:03] Yeah. Should I say, I don’t know. Yeah, I’ve got some plans, and I think it involves teaching others, empowering others, connecting with like minded individuals and creating win win situations, creating opportunities overall. You know, creating a legacy so that, you know, we’ve all got to go at some day. But you know, I do want to be remembered, you know, impacts, say your family or your kids for people to come up to my kids. I remember your mom. She was wonderful. She really helped me when I was down. She really changed the course of, you know what I’m doing now? Or, you know, I think that that’s really important to me.
[01:07:44] Look what bill of that 15 year old is still there now because, you know, at the beginning of the conversation, we were very much it was that sort of pressurised pain and tragedy. And and then there was a moment in the conversation when we’re talking about growing. And you know what? What Bill of you is still that same person I know we do. Most of you is, yeah, but you know the difference between the person you can’t buy the chocolate biscuit and the person who’s got, how many businesses have you got a good ten businesses on the go? All of all of this stuff going on that you’ve got going on now, do you feel pride when you look back on that story? Is your mom still with us?
[01:08:28] Yes, she is. She’s proud.
[01:08:31] She’s she’s proud. But oh, I should just interject my younger sister, who was four. Yeah. And this is why I mentioned it can be part of your DNA, perhaps, as well as necessity being the mother of invention and circumstance kind of pushing you
[01:08:48] To be the very best you can be. Would you believe she’s the owner of? She set up a vegan condom company called Hanks’ that stocked in boots globally everywhere.
[01:09:01] If you Google Hangouts is sold everywhere. So she’s done phenomenally well, and then she’s been offered
[01:09:07] By a major kind of
[01:09:11] Condom on the
[01:09:15] Phenomenal, eye watering amount of money to
[01:09:17] Buy out. So it just goes to show, you know, my mom being proud of me, I think she’s proud of all of us. We’ve all kind of landed on our feet and done well. And I think there’s something to be said for just being a really good human being and meaning well for others
[01:09:32] And connecting and giving back because I think it comes back as well.
[01:09:36] Prav is not with us for his final questions, but I’m going to ask them. You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest around you. One of three pieces of advice you would give them.
[01:09:51] Gosh, this is hard, isn’t it? I think live life to the fullest, enjoy each day because you just don’t know
[01:09:57] What life can throw at you and how the course of your life can change.
[01:10:01] Really appreciate each day the fact when you get out of bed,
[01:10:05] You breathe the air, you’ve got a fridge full of food. Be happy. There’s a lot to be happy for.
[01:10:10] Be good, kind to others. Help others and
[01:10:14] You’ll be surprised how much that kind of benefits you in multiple ways. For me, it’s been financial. It’s been fulfilling
[01:10:23] In every capacity, any good deed I’ve done. It’s kind of come back tenfold
[01:10:26] To me
[01:10:27] And. We have the third piece of advice is. Is definitely try and do something good for others.
[01:10:35] You know, that was the second piece of advice,
[01:10:38] Is that the second piece of advice study hard at school
[01:10:41] Become a really. And one final question. We’ve been experimenting this with this one at the OECD, and I appreciate this coming out of the blue. So don’t worry to relax, you’ll get the answer. Dinner party. Three, yes. Dead or alive, who are they going to be?
[01:11:04] Oh, my gosh. Who would you like at a dinner party?
[01:11:09] Yeah. Dead or alive? Three gets.
[01:11:11] I think Payman, you’ve got to be there because I think you are
[01:11:15] Go of it.
[01:11:16] Great fun.
[01:11:21] Oh, three’s quite hard. I think I think Mukesh is a top bloke.
[01:11:27] But what I like that, but is, is he better than, you know, Gandhi? Oh, well, I’m right. I mean, OK, me, Mukesh and Gandhi, it’s a good one.
[01:11:48] All right. Thank you so much for doing this, Jenny, and what a what an inspirational story. I mean, you know, one side of me says, you know, a little small lady who who’s you know, from from an ethnic minority and look what you’re to see. But there’s another side of me that just says, just, you know, it doesn’t matter who you were or who you are and they’re going through what you went through, doing what you’re doing now. It’s just proper inspirational. So it’s it’s really nice to have you on on the show. Thank you so much for doing this.
[01:12:22] Oh, thank you. Really appreciate it. Hope it’s been an inspiration to others and free for anyone to reach out in any capacity for help or advice.
[01:12:30] Yeah, I think there’s going to be a bunch of ladies asking for mentorship now. All right. Thanks a lot.
[01:12:39] Thank you.
[01:12:42] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.
[01:12:58] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.