Category: Podcast

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Neil Seeker [00:00:50] onto the podcast. Neil has had an illustrious career, but right [00:00:55] now, chief dental officer at Bupa Dental insurance [00:01:00] and director of dentistry at Bupa, which is 360 practices. So I [00:01:05] guess representing the clinicians at all levels, right. Is that is that is that what you [00:01:10] do at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: I do, I do, I suppose I do three things. I’m a practising dentist. [00:01:15] Still see my patients once a week. I’ve got a group of them I’ve been looking after for years. I’m the chief [00:01:20] dental officer for the insurance business. And in that role, I helped to design our dental insurance products, [00:01:25] sell them into large companies, and then look at how we can streamline [00:01:30] the journey for anybody that has that insurance that might want to come into our practices. And [00:01:35] then with the director of dentistry role, I think my job is to I I’m [00:01:40] the senior clinician that sits on the board. I lead our clinical advisory team, um, [00:01:45] and our role as a gang of four, if you like. Um, we represent the, [00:01:50] the dental community in terms of dentists, hygiene therapists, nurses, [00:01:55] and I oversee the group. But our job is to build a community [00:02:00] to try and help people believe in, in what the value of Bupa can [00:02:05] bring to them. But also, we just, you know, we want to be the number one choice of employer. And our [00:02:10] role as a for clinical professionals, our role as a group of four is to do that.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:02:15] your your career, I mean, I remember you from the Barbican. Dental days. Yeah. [00:02:20] Which I was, I was still studying but, but by the time I, I [00:02:25] was thinking about opening a practice, you were putting these sort of [00:02:30] mobile units outside of like bank headquarters and [00:02:35] then and then doing the deal with the bank to get people to, to go there instead of the other dentists [00:02:40] because it saves time.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. That wasn’t actually me. Was that in terms of the mobile units? [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Neil Sikka: But I had a very similar idea. So my story, [00:02:50] I suppose, started, I was working in the East End of London, Bethnal Green, you know, the heart [00:02:55] of the East End. And I was working in an NHS practice in the days [00:03:00] before CQC.

Payman Langroudi: Associate.

Neil Sikka: As an associate. Um, and my [00:03:05] room was probably not much bigger than this table. Um and I, it was so small that I [00:03:10] couldn’t have a door to go in. I had saloon doors. So I was an original cowboy dentist [00:03:15] and people used to fall into my chair and I literally would sit behind [00:03:20] the chair all day and patients would just come in. I’d see 40, 50 patients a day. [00:03:25] It was that kind of practice. You probably remember those. Yeah. And it was I mean, [00:03:30] it was hard. It was tough. And it was really difficult to provide the kind [00:03:35] of treatment that I wanted to. And I remember walking out the door one day and [00:03:40] I looked up and I saw the Tower of Canary Wharf going up. And I just [00:03:45] had that kind of moment. And I thought, I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to set up a dental practice [00:03:50] in Canary Wharf, and then I’m going to approach all the companies in the area and [00:03:55] effectively set up a dental plan for those companies so that all those employees can come [00:04:00] to my practice for treatment. And that was my kind of dream. Age 2425. [00:04:05] Um, it didn’t quite work out just like that [00:04:10] because I did approach Canary Wharf and they said, have you ever run a practice before? [00:04:15] We’re looking at some very high quality services for our environment.

Neil Sikka: You know, we’ve got investment [00:04:20] banks, law firms, blue chip firms of the world. Yeah. And I said, well, [00:04:25] no, I haven’t. But I’ve got this ambition. Anyway, I managed to find out. [00:04:30] They said that they were going to put a big health centre together and Dental was going to be part of an integrated health [00:04:35] centre. So I managed to find the name of the company that was potentially going to get the contract. [00:04:40] And I approached them and they said, okay, you know, you’ve got some good ideas, [00:04:45] but you’re 25 years old. We want to try you out effectively. They didn’t say that. Set [00:04:50] up in our building in the Barbican. We’ve got a health centre there. Let’s see how you get on. And that’s [00:04:55] how I started. And um and eventually they set up in Canary Wharf [00:05:00] and that’s how I started my business. And I just, you would literally, I would set up a [00:05:05] practice, go to the local blue chip firms and local firms as well. Um, [00:05:10] I had a dental plan that I had created, I would sell that into the, into [00:05:15] the company.

Neil Sikka: And then those employees for a set monthly fee would receive [00:05:20] services of my practices so I could grow private treatment very quickly. [00:05:25] Um, and also I, you know, I don’t know if, you know, in the early, late [00:05:30] 80s, 80s, early 90s dentistry was private [00:05:35] dentistry was the preserve of the West End of London, a few pockets around the country. Yeah, but [00:05:40] there wasn’t much private dentistry going on. And I felt that it was I [00:05:45] felt that it was quite elitist, if I’m honest. People would look down on you almost if [00:05:50] you were, you know, not if they were working in the West End. And I thought, that’s not the way it should be. We all qualify [00:05:55] the same. Yeah. Um, so I thought by introducing this way of [00:06:00] providing affordable private treatment on the doorstep for employees and [00:06:05] employers, I could make it much more egalitarian. And so everybody [00:06:10] from the CEO down to, you know, your doorman could have access [00:06:15] to treatment for a set monthly fee. And that’s how I grew it. So that grew over 20 [00:06:20] years. I had ten practices in the end. Um, and, you know, and [00:06:25] that’s how I grew the.

Payman Langroudi: Business, the mobile practices wasn’t.

Neil Sikka: You. The mobile was, um, was not me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:06:30] was not called Barbican as well.

Neil Sikka: No, that was called mobile. I think it was called Mobile Dental Services. [00:06:35] And that was run by a chap called Mark Trupp at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So how quickly did it get to ten [00:06:40] practices?

Neil Sikka: I think I started in 92 and [00:06:45] I think by 2002 I was at ten practices, but I opened them [00:06:50] all organically. I didn’t make any acquisitions. I would spot a place where I felt [00:06:55] there wasn’t, um, much dentistry being provided, or there was a new building [00:07:00] going up with thousands of employees going in, and that’s how I would approach it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:05] sort of self-finance. You didn’t have.

Neil Sikka: Self-financed. I didn’t take any debt because as I grew, [00:07:10] I, you know, you know, you can lease equipment. You just have to pay for the fit out. And [00:07:15] I just did it very gradually, if I’m honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that gradual is it, it’s a one a year every [00:07:20] year. And I guess you were sinking every dollar back in.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Busy time. And [00:07:25] it wasn’t a time where I mean now it’s a very common story, but back then it was kind of rare for multiple [00:07:30] practice. Yeah. At that rate.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. It’s [00:07:35] um. Yeah, I mean, but I had a great team and also geographically I was only in [00:07:40] central London, so I was in the city, I was in the Canary in Canary Wharf and I was in the West [00:07:45] End and that was it.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you think your value add was? I mean, was it the fact that [00:07:50] you were good at going to the companies and getting that deal done? Or [00:07:55] are you a, you know, an expert at operations?

Neil Sikka: I think, you [00:08:00] know, I mean, you’ve run your own practice in the past. Do you know what it’s like you have to learn on the job. Yeah. [00:08:05] And you I just had this idea. Yeah. Of I did not I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it took.

Neil Sikka: At the [00:08:10] time. Yeah. And it’s like you just fall into it, don’t you? And you go, well I’m not, I don’t know [00:08:15] if I’m a salesman, but I’ve got this idea and I think it sells itself. I didn’t think I had to sell it to anybody [00:08:20] because it was so obvious, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, but I mean, for instance, you’ve got Barclays [00:08:25] Bank in Canary Wharf. How did you figure out who to go to and what to say?

Neil Sikka: And [00:08:30] so in those days, you could get hold of the name of the HR director, [00:08:35] the human resources director, or, um, sometimes it was in the people team. They had different [00:08:40] titles, but it was basically the person that was running the, the benefits for, [00:08:45] for the staff, for staff, and you could get in the name and the number [00:08:50] in those days, try and do it now. It’s almost impossible to get through because there’s so [00:08:55] many gateways.

Payman Langroudi: That you got to.

Neil Sikka: Pass through. But in those days, I could literally make a call. And [00:09:00] that was before email, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s literally.

Payman Langroudi: Said the [00:09:05] pitch just like that, just the way you just described it.

Neil Sikka: So what’s interesting is how it first started [00:09:10] was that, um, I rented premises from a company called Barbican [00:09:15] Health. Mhm. Um, and they would give us the access [00:09:20] to their corporate clients. Um and that’s how it first started. But then eventually we [00:09:25] would do our own marketing and literally just kind of get on the phone and say, [00:09:30] we’ve got this idea. Can we send you some details? We’re just around the corner. And often it would start by going, we’ll, [00:09:35] we’ll try you out. Um, so what I’d say is anybody [00:09:40] with an emergency from your company, you call us, we will see them on the day. Anyone [00:09:45] in trouble. And that’s the way that. And we had that as a that was our policy throughout. [00:09:50] Actually, that was one of the best ways we grew the business, because we promised that we would move the diary [00:09:55] around to make sure that we would get someone out of pain. And I think if you do that, you’ve got a patient for life. [00:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Neil Sikka: Because they value the fact that you’ve, you know, you’ve gone the extra mile [00:10:05] for them. I really, it was a very personal business and I like baby.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:10:10] And I like to know the fact that I knew everybody in the business. And I found that I was starting to go into [00:10:15] practices and I didn’t recognise new employees that were being taken on. And I kind of thought, [00:10:20] oh, what’s, you know, what’s happening? Am I losing control? Or and it wasn’t so much that I thought. And then I [00:10:25] looked at the structure of the business. We didn’t have any central costs. So I outsourced finance, [00:10:30] admin, PR, marketing. But I felt that if we were going [00:10:35] to get to the next level from ten practices, we probably had to be 50 because we’d have [00:10:40] to justify the central costs that were then going to come in. Yeah. And I thought, if I’m going to set up [00:10:45] that team, then I’ve got to really leverage the business and grow it considerably. And [00:10:50] I probably had been doing it nearly 20 years by then, and I thought, maybe I’m ready [00:10:55] for a new challenge. It’s really interesting because people always say, well, how did you know who to sell [00:11:00] to? And I think that’s always a, an interesting point because, [00:11:05] because it depends what you want out of it. Now, I knew I didn’t want [00:11:10] to leave the business. I wanted to continue to be heavily involved. So for me, the [00:11:15] number one thing that was important was aligning our culture and values. What type of [00:11:20] business was going to take on, you know, my practices, [00:11:25] but also my people. So how are my people going to be treated [00:11:30] in this new business?

Payman Langroudi: But so this alignment of values factor, [00:11:35] how how important was that? I mean, was that massive? No. But was there another [00:11:40] group offering you more money? But the but the, uh, those things weren’t in [00:11:45] place. Yeah. Was it something like that?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I, you potentially left [00:11:50] money on the table to make sure that your team were looked after properly. Yeah. That’s [00:11:55] nice.

Neil Sikka: And so to me, it was about longevity. It was about alignment [00:12:00] of cultural values. And you know what the future might hold. And also that synergy of the [00:12:05] approach. So, you know, they they’ve actually termed it now where you [00:12:10] have, um, where you have a company that has a product and provision and they [00:12:15] align the two, they call it a pay vida. Mhm. Um, and I’m sure you’re aware of that, but [00:12:20] at the time that’s fair. That was fairly new. Um, [00:12:25] and the fact that I was doing, and the fact that Bupa Bupa was doing it was very aligned into the [00:12:30] way that I could see the growth of the business. So that was also important as well, because I wanted [00:12:35] to see that my own practices and my own people could grow and develop in a way [00:12:40] that I probably couldn’t give them. Yeah. Um, you know, within a much larger infrastructure. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what were the headlines as far as the size of the business, number of people, number [00:12:50] of patients turnover at that point? Well.

Neil Sikka: We were, um, [00:12:55] as I say, ten practices. We were seeing about 50,000 patients a year. [00:13:00] Um, I think we may have been about 160 people across [00:13:05] all practices. So, you know, it wasn’t big by modern [00:13:10] terms of what a corporate and it was, but it was just about manageable in [00:13:15] the structure that we had. Um, and yeah, [00:13:20] and, you know, and we were general Dental, but we, we started to bring in the specialisms [00:13:25] as time went on and as more specialisms developed, because initially there were [00:13:30] very few specialists around in the early 90s, it, it’s grown more and more as time [00:13:35] has gone on. And so you had your specialist only practices that you would [00:13:40] refer your patients to. But like all practices, we started to bring that in-house as [00:13:45] time went on as well. So we wanted to provide a really comprehensive service within [00:13:50] our own ecosystem, if you like.

Payman Langroudi: What interests me, though, is [00:13:55] when I look at your LinkedIn and I see this just cereal [00:14:00] social enterprise serial entrepreneur, [00:14:05] you know, there’s so many things you’ve done since that time that, you know, the [00:14:10] next man might have sat back, had a holiday and [00:14:15] done nothing. But but you keep on doing things. And really what I’m interested [00:14:20] in is that sort of relationship between sort of risk and reward. And I don’t necessarily [00:14:25] even mean financial risk and financial reward. I mean, when a new thing comes along, [00:14:30] you talk to someone somewhere and they say, I don’t know. I looked at one of your things. [00:14:35] It was like trying to make the nursing training pathway better. Yeah. [00:14:40] If someone said that to me, I would look at just the pain [00:14:45] points in that the next man would look at the sort of the opportunities [00:14:50] in that. And so it looks to me like you wouldn’t have done all the things that [00:14:55] you’ve done if you weren’t quite an optimist, number one, but also not [00:15:00] the kind of person who dwells on risk.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I [00:15:05] mean, I think when I was younger, you didn’t I didn’t think about risk because I think what do I have to risk? You know, at the end [00:15:10] of the day, you had nothing to lose. You know, I, I mean, in those days, you could set up [00:15:15] a practice. I sold my car and set up the first practice. That was it. You [00:15:20] know.

Payman Langroudi: You get 100% loan, 110, 110% loan, I remember.

Neil Sikka: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Neil Sikka: So? [00:15:25] So there was no risk to me. I said, well, what have I got to lose? It’s all or nothing. I mean, I was 25 years old. I [00:15:30] wouldn’t think like that now, but I think from [00:15:35] a you talk about the community aspect? I think it’s always been something that’s been close to my heart [00:15:40] trying to, um, I think, you know, I think we’re in a really privileged position [00:15:45] as a clinician, as dentist in healthcare, you know, we’re in a real position to be able to [00:15:50] improve people’s lives. Yeah. And I think when you can do that and really make a difference [00:15:55] to people that just don’t have access to care, um, it’s [00:16:00] really life fulfilling. And that’s why I’ve, I’ve been involved in, [00:16:05] you’ll have seen that I’ve done stuff in India.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So go through that one. There’s a train, the train.

Neil Sikka: So [00:16:10] I mean, it was a simple thing. There’s a train in India called um the Lifeline Express [00:16:15] and it’s a hospital train that parks up in the sidings of a, you [00:16:20] know, you know, that the railways in, in India are the backbone of the country. [00:16:25] Everybody who, you know, the amount of people that travel on trains in India. So [00:16:30] what the train is, is they park on the sidings for, for about six months and they have a hospital, they have [00:16:35] eye surgery, orthopaedic surgery, they have operating theatres on board. [00:16:40] And I saw this and I thought, they don’t have a Dental carriage on the back, do they? So I wrote to them [00:16:45] and I said, I’ve got this idea about, you know, providing dentistry alongside everything [00:16:50] else. And they went, oh, we don’t think there’s a call for it. And I thought, really? Anyway, they [00:16:55] wrote back to me about six months later and said, we thought about your idea and we thought, we’ll try it out. [00:17:00] And we were inundated. Um, well, I wasn’t surprised really, because, you know, [00:17:05] it’s not like there’s an NHS in India providing dental care. It’s the last thing that [00:17:10] people think about. So I said, if you’re willing, you can pay for a dental carriage. We’ll put a couple of [00:17:15] chairs in there, come out for the inauguration treat, treat, um, meet the team and [00:17:20] provide some treatment. What I wanted to do and what I’ve always done in these situations [00:17:25] is I want to plug into an organisation that already has a really good infrastructure where dentistry [00:17:30] could be something you can add on, but it’s not something that once I’ve provided [00:17:35] the initial funding that I have to continue to be involved in, because they can they can [00:17:40] run with it.

Neil Sikka: And that’s what’s happened with the Lifeline Express. They’ve got the Dental carriage on. They, [00:17:45] um, they now they used to accept um international [00:17:50] volunteers. Um and so I used to have a kind of a spreadsheet of people that want to [00:17:55] get involved. And I’d let them know when there was a project going on because they changed their, their, um, their positioning [00:18:00] in the country and, but they plan it quite a long way ahead. Um, [00:18:05] and so, um, they, what they do now [00:18:10] is that they plan ahead, contact the local um, hospital, dental hospital, [00:18:15] college and get medical and dental volunteers to come and work because [00:18:20] they have to, when they’re doing orthopaedic surgery or something like that, you’ve got quite a lot of planning. You’ve got to know your cases, [00:18:25] you’ve got to know what you’re going to, who you’re going to treat, what you’re going to do about aftercare. All these things [00:18:30] are really important, um, less so for dentistry if you’re doing, which is pretty [00:18:35] much what we’re doing is emergency care because the call, you know, is so large, so [00:18:40] many people don’t get any access to care. And when you see the people that you treat there that have been [00:18:45] suffering and, and some of them have walked for miles and miles to get there. [00:18:50] And then they’re sitting in a 50 degree heat outside on the platform, waiting [00:18:55] for us in a nice air conditioned carriage to come out and get them in. You realise how [00:19:00] important it is to them. So, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You paid [00:19:05] for that personally. Yeah. And just as an act of philanthropy. [00:19:10]

Neil Sikka: Well, yeah. But it was something that gave me incredible joy to be involved [00:19:15] in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it did. Um, have you heard about giving directly?

Neil Sikka: No. [00:19:20] Is that a is that a platform or is it a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a charity. But the idea is that, um, [00:19:25] that guy who’s got the toothache if you give him. $20 [00:19:30] directly. Give him the cash.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: $20? [00:19:35] Yeah, he’ll spend it better than you can. Yeah. [00:19:40] Because he’ll he’ll go find the local dentist guy who’ll pull his tooth out for $2. [00:19:45] Right. But the cost of you and that train and all that is so much [00:19:50] higher than giving each of those patients that you treated $20 [00:19:55] to go and find their own. Now, now, of course you don’t. You don’t actually feel the [00:20:00] difference that you’re making. Yeah. But interesting idea that, you know, that me [00:20:05] going over somewhere, paying for something and providing [00:20:10] the service that I think people need is a lot less efficient than me dropping [00:20:15] $20 in someone’s hand.

Neil Sikka: I would probably challenge that. I mean, I [00:20:20] paid for the carriage and the and the units to go on there, but we’ve treated over half a million people. [00:20:25] So I think what I would have to spend to give [00:20:30] people a certain amount of money to then spend on their teeth would be far more than the half a [00:20:35] million people that we’ve treated on the Lifeline Express. And also, you’ve got [00:20:40] to remember you, you give someone $20, how do you know they’re going to spend it on their teeth?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, it’s [00:20:45] not for you to decide that.

Neil Sikka: That’s also.

Payman Langroudi: True. It is not for you to decide.

Neil Sikka: I [00:20:50] suppose for me, it’s like, you know, I have a skill, I have knowledge and [00:20:55] I have experience, and I want to use that for the benefit of those people [00:21:00] that can access it. So for me, I can give that money to [00:21:05] anyone anyway, regardless, but I’d want to use my skills and experience to [00:21:10] benefit people.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. Of course I get it. I just think it’s an interesting thing, [00:21:15] you know, that if you do the do the maths, that you’re challenging the maths. Of course, half [00:21:20] a million sounds like a lot of humans.

Neil Sikka: It’s a lot of people and they’re incredibly efficient. I [00:21:25] think I started it in 2010. So 15 years.

Speaker 4: It’s not that long for half [00:21:30] a million people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s very interesting. So do you still go back or not?

Neil Sikka: I haven’t [00:21:35] been back for a few years now, not since Covid. But I do other things. Um, [00:21:40] I worked on a, I volunteered and I didn’t provide anything to that [00:21:45] thing called mercy ships. I don’t know if you’ve heard of mercy ships, where they go around Africa and they park up [00:21:50] this massive great cruise liner, which has incredible funding, amazing operating [00:21:55] theatres. I mean, that is one very slick operation. And what they do is they take [00:22:00] over, um, part of a hospital on land and turn it into a kind of a ten surgery, [00:22:05] mobile practice, dental practice, ten chairs. And then people fly in for 2 or 3 weeks [00:22:10] and give their time. I mean, that’s an incredible experience. I was, I was rude because [00:22:15] you all stay on the on the ship. And I was rooming with a plastic surgeon from California [00:22:20] who had come in and flown in for a month to treat non-malignant tumours. [00:22:25] Surgical tumours that in in the West you would treat immediately. [00:22:30] But they sit there for years and years and years in Africa. So that’s you know, but the [00:22:35] I think and I haven’t done a lot of international stuff more recently because [00:22:40] we’re very embedded with Dentaid. So Dentaid [00:22:45] is another charity that I supported right at the beginning 2005, 2006, and [00:22:50] I helped them to design a chair that’s still in use.

Neil Sikka: Because if you imagine most, most [00:22:55] charities, when they go and do these, um, these kind of camps, [00:23:00] they’ll be using plastic chairs and whatever. And actually it’s very difficult when you’re trying to extract [00:23:05] teeth or you’re trying to do treatment when you haven’t got any support behind you. So we designed a chair [00:23:10] which had a which, which you headrest, a headrest at the back, but also flat seating as well. [00:23:15] So it was almost like a reclining chair, but it was hand winched. And [00:23:20] they still sell that chair now in Dentaid. But we’re I mean, I’ve always been a massive [00:23:25] supporter of Dental and, and, um, volunteered with them, but with [00:23:30] my relationship through Bupa, they are now our main charity partner for Bupa Dental [00:23:35] Care. So we’ve funded, um, a solar panel powered unit, which is much [00:23:40] more lightweight that can go into much more, um, difficult to reach places, um, [00:23:45] city centres where, you know, they’ve got, they’ve got paid massive, they get charged massive congestion [00:23:50] charges unless they’ve got a um, a Ulez compliant um van. [00:23:55] We provide volunteers all over the country and that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Through Bupa. [00:24:00]

Neil Sikka: Through Bupa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So, you know, that was the way that I saw it when I came, when I, when I first we [00:24:05] created a foundation charity committee, which is funded by a, a big [00:24:10] kind of main foundation, but we have our own dental charity foundation. And [00:24:15] I pushed and I became the chair of it initially. And, um, and I said, [00:24:20] I think this is the perfect match because we have 8000 people [00:24:25] all over the country. Um, they need volunteers all the time. And [00:24:30] we can provide those opportunities to our staff, to our clinicians, to our staff, [00:24:35] to volunteer to work on these units. And I regularly volunteer with them.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the typical [00:24:40] time amount of time that a clinician might give to that?

Neil Sikka: Well, not as much [00:24:45] as you’d like, I suppose, but a week. No, we just do a day a day literally. Because you know, [00:24:50] the whole point initially they were all a Dentaid were only based really in the South, um [00:24:55] around Southampton way. Um, but as they’ve grown, they started with just one unit. They’ve [00:25:00] now got 12 mobile units going all over the country. We’ve taken them to Northern Ireland, to [00:25:05] our practices there and our volunteers um have got involved there. We’ve now got a northern hub [00:25:10] where we’re providing treatment in Yorkshire and further north. And they’re all, you [00:25:15] know, they’re like these, all these vans going all over the country now providing free treatment to the homeless [00:25:20] and the vulnerable. Our job is to support them financially, provide volunteers, [00:25:25] and what they do is the logistics. They do all the organisation, they do the liaison [00:25:30] with the charities. Because ultimately, if you’re a clinician and you turn up, you want to treat patients, [00:25:35] you don’t want to be sitting there, you’re giving your time for a day, but you can just give a day. Um, [00:25:40] and they have different camps on different days.

Payman Langroudi: So every dentist knows that they’ve got that opportunity. [00:25:45] If they want to give their time, they can through you and Dental.

Neil Sikka: And [00:25:50] not just the dentists the nurses can volunteer to work on. And also the other [00:25:55] great thing is that they’re always looking for logistics support as well. So people to take medical histories, people [00:26:00] to drive the vans. So you if you’re even if you’re non-clinical, you can [00:26:05] still get involved.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. So I’ve always thought this year that if there was a easily [00:26:10] accessible way for, let’s just call it young dentists [00:26:15] to give a day, a week, a fortnight to give their skills [00:26:20] loads and loads and loads would do it. And I know there is, but it’s [00:26:25] not publicised properly. I’m going to this thing. Mobile smiles. Charity [00:26:30] thing.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: They they take people to. I don’t know Egypt and Namibia and [00:26:35] so forth. And it’s a kind of a ten day thing and it’s half of it is charity. And [00:26:40] then half of it, they go on holiday sort of thing. And I can understand why [00:26:45] a lot of people would do that if they knew about it. Right.

Neil Sikka: There’s a there’s a lot of that. [00:26:50] There are so many kind of oral health related charities that provide that kind [00:26:55] of opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: Linda Greenwald does something as well.

Neil Sikka: Linda does something, I think. And, um, [00:27:00] is it Mateusz? Uh, he, he has something in Africa that he provides. [00:27:05] There’s something that’s going on in, uh, in the Caribbean. I know that one of our dentists is involved. [00:27:10] There’s so many things like that going on. Bridge to aid, of course, has been around a long time. Even [00:27:15] Dental aid work in Cambodia. They work in Uganda, so they provide there [00:27:20] not just UK based. They’re very international as well in terms of. And they’ve grown enormously. [00:27:25] Um I always think that’s it’s great, but then you’ve got, if [00:27:30] you want to go abroad and do that, that’s, that’s kind of a week of your time. Yeah. As opposed to just say, [00:27:35] oh, I’ll do a day. Yeah. Which is, which is also a great thing to do as well.

Payman Langroudi: Crisis at Christmas. Yes. [00:27:40]

Neil Sikka: Another one. I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I that was in South London Boxing Day. [00:27:45] Um again really you know it’s it’s so easy for us [00:27:50] to do I, but I do it is interesting though when people ask me, I say, [00:27:55] well what actually treatment do you do? I say, well, I do a lot of extractions. And they go especially the some of the younger [00:28:00] dentists that maybe haven’t, you know, if you haven’t had the experience, there’s a potentially [00:28:05] sometimes a little bit of, um, reticence there. Yeah. Um, so [00:28:10] there is that bit of a barrier sometimes because of the type of treatment that you will be providing to a [00:28:15] lot of people.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Tell me about your upbringing.

Neil Sikka: So [00:28:20] I’m Indian born and bred. So my dad, uh, [00:28:25] is a was an eye surgeon. He came over from India in the late 50s. [00:28:30] Um, and he did his, he wanted [00:28:35] to do his FRCs, Royal College of Surgeons. So you couldn’t do that in India. [00:28:40] He did that here and he stayed. And he got a consultant post in Lincolnshire.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were [00:28:45] born.

Neil Sikka: Uh, as I was born.

Payman Langroudi: As you were born. So I was you were born here.

Neil Sikka: I was born in Bradford.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh. [00:28:50]

Neil Sikka: Um, and then at six months old, he got the consultant post. He was a senior registrar in Bradford Royal [00:28:55] Infirmary. He then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which was no mean feat for an Indian [00:29:00] back then.

Neil Sikka: Well, it was interesting, actually, because, um, you know, there were very [00:29:05] few Asian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um clinicians in the UK at that time. And [00:29:10] I think he was one of two Asian consultants that were appointed. Um, [00:29:15] and I mean, there’s a bit of a story behind that. He was appointed, um, [00:29:20] I think it was 1964. Um. 6364 [00:29:25] and he went for his interview and they appointed him. And then um, [00:29:30] when the local medical community found out that he was Indian, there was a massive uproar [00:29:35] and they tried to remove him, but his, um, he had a, um, [00:29:40] um, he had a reference from a, a professor at [00:29:45] Moorfields and the professor wrote to them and said, you know, you have to give me a very good reason [00:29:50] why you’re not giving him this job, having already appointed him. So he was then reappointed [00:29:55] and he was there for until until he died. And my mum’s [00:30:00] a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: As well as well.

Neil Sikka: We actually have 49 I think at last count, 49 [00:30:05] medically qualified people in our family.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of doctor is your mum?

Neil Sikka: Uh, [00:30:10] she was, she did all sorts. She was GP Psychiatry. Sexual health. [00:30:15] She’s done everything. I mean, she worked. She’s not she’s still alive. She’s. She lives [00:30:20] up in Lincolnshire in the family house. And she was working until Covid aged [00:30:25] 89.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Neil Sikka: And even now I say to her, she says to me, I’d still be working if it wasn’t [00:30:30] for Covid. And I’m like, mum, you’re 93.

Payman Langroudi: So childhood memories of [00:30:35] a kid who’s got two incredibly busy doctor parents. I [00:30:40] guess for you, it just felt normal that, you know, your, your, your [00:30:45] job takes over your life. I mean, but for doctors, it really does. With surgeons [00:30:50] particularly, right?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, like you didn’t see your dad very much. Well, I, I. [00:30:55]

Neil Sikka: I probably saw him a reasonable amount, but, [00:31:00] um, I think my mum probably worked even longer hours than my dad really. [00:31:05] I mean, but they, they, they juggled it and they made it work. I mean, I had two older sisters [00:31:10] And, um, so I was five years younger than my, my first [00:31:15] sister and then my other sister was, um, nine years older than me, so they were [00:31:20] around a bit. Um, but I was, I was at home until I was 11 [00:31:25] and then I went to boarding school. So then, you know, and I think they did that because they [00:31:30] were my, both my sisters were much older by then. And my, um, [00:31:35] parents probably thought, you know, you’re going to be at home a bit on your own. So this is a good idea. And I, [00:31:40] and I loved, you know, I loved sport, I loved music and being in a boarding school environment [00:31:45] was great for me because I was just kept busy every single moment of the day.

Payman Langroudi: You took to that. Well [00:31:50] did.

Neil Sikka: You? I took to it really well.

Payman Langroudi: Not everyone does.

Neil Sikka: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Which school was it?

Neil Sikka: A place called Oundle, [00:31:55] which is near Oundle. Oh, UNDN okay. Which is near Peterborough.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:32:00] So it’s kind of close to home.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Two hours? Yeah, two hours from Grimsby, [00:32:05] which is where home was.

Payman Langroudi: And so this sort of, uh, can do attitude [00:32:10] that you’ve got.

Neil Sikka: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Can you put it back [00:32:15] to some point in childhood? I mean, were you always that.

Neil Sikka: No, I don’t think I was. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: What was the inflection point that made you turn into this person that, you know, like sort of I [00:32:25] mean, I know maybe you don’t want to be characterised as this, but I would say a risk taker. [00:32:30] You know, someone, someone, someone, someone who thinks outside the box completely and, [00:32:35] you know, get stuff done and then even the charitable side of it. Like what did [00:32:40] you see the roots of that?

Neil Sikka: Well, you know, I was [00:32:45] not particularly academic. I wasn’t particularly, um, [00:32:50] focussed, if I’m honest. Um, but I think it was when I went to university, [00:32:55] I just loved doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study.

Neil Sikka: Uh Leeds and I, [00:33:00] and I loved, um.

Payman Langroudi: I love which student were you? The swotty one. [00:33:05]

Neil Sikka: No, I wouldn’t say I was the most No, [00:33:10] I don’t think so. I was I was kind of middle of the range. I [00:33:15] think I did enough, but I also enjoyed what I did and I loved the practical side of [00:33:20] it. Um, and, and, and I probably loved the people side of it [00:33:25] too. Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the side of dentistry I miss since I stopped, you [00:33:30] know. So we were talking before that you still doing one day a week?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was doing one day a week [00:33:35] from around 22,007 to [00:33:40] 2012 when I, when I completely stopped. And, um, [00:33:45] then I had a bad day, basically.

Neil Sikka: And then you thought, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: It enough, you know? [00:33:50] Um, but I do miss it. And it’s only when you fully stop that you realise [00:33:55] what you do miss about the job. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting telling [00:34:00] me the thing they love about the job. Sometimes the thing I hated most about the job is [00:34:05] what someone else loved about it. For instance, I’m not that interested in Meccano [00:34:10] like, you know.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Putting the the full mouth rehab in and it all fits. [00:34:15] I’m sure it’s great when you’ve you’ve the guy behind the whole thing. Yeah. But I was never I never got far enough in the industry [00:34:20] to be that guy.

Neil Sikka: Me neither.

Payman Langroudi: But the conversations [00:34:25] and maybe this is why I do a podcast now, the conversations you have with patients [00:34:30] are golden, but you don’t really realise it when you’re a dentist. [00:34:35] When you’re a dentist, in a way, people are in the way of your job in a way. Um, [00:34:40] but I only realised how much I learned from my patients and, [00:34:45] you know, just the social interaction with all different parts of society [00:34:50] that you get by being a general dentist. Yeah. Whether private or NHS, [00:34:55] you get to meet all different types of people and understand [00:35:00] different things from their lives. And then as the families grow up and all that. [00:35:05] And I was in private dentistry. The nice thing about private dentistry is that talking to your patient is a big part of [00:35:10] the job.

Neil Sikka: Oh, definitely. It’s building that relationship. I mean, I do a day a week now. I’ve [00:35:15] been doing a day a week. It’s funny, every when I, when I started the business, I said, I’m going to give up [00:35:20] a day, a week for every practice that I open. But once I got to five, I said, I’m not giving up any more days. So [00:35:25] I stopped till one day a week, but I didn’t. I haven’t seen any new patients for probably 25 [00:35:30] years.

Payman Langroudi: So they’re just your friends?

Neil Sikka: Well, I mean, I do see a [00:35:35] lot of family and friends, but a lot of them have become friends.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I mean.

Neil Sikka: As [00:35:40] well, because and it’s really, it takes quite a long time to get to know people. You think. Oh, a couple of years and you [00:35:45] know, you’ll know them really well, but you’re only seeing a snapshot of them. That’s right. For twice a year, [00:35:50] if you, you know, unless you’re doing in depth treatment. Um, but and it takes [00:35:55] that long time, but I’ve got this group now who I just love to see. You know, I love to [00:36:00] hear what they’re up to, how the family’s doing. I see that kids, I see some of their grandkids. [00:36:05] Um, and that’s a, you know, it’s a, and I’m just a solid [00:36:10] general dentist that tries to do the right thing for their patients. I’m not I mean, I have [00:36:15] embraced technology, you know, and I, one of my roles at Bupa is to look at innovation [00:36:20] and how we can apply that, um, efficiently within [00:36:25] our dental practice environment, which is advantageous for our clinicians, but also for our [00:36:30] patients and for the business. Um, so I have, I embrace technology, [00:36:35] but I wouldn’t say I’m like, well, like you said, I don’t do big full mouth rehabs or anything [00:36:40] like that. We’ve got plenty of specialists in the business that can do all that. Um, but I’ve tried [00:36:45] to look after my patients in the right way. The only thing now is I, you know, [00:36:50] when you see someone for 30 years, you start to look at the stuff you did 20 years ago that’s [00:36:55] still there. And you go.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s the best teacher. It’s the best teacher.

Neil Sikka: I’m gonna have to start looking at this [00:37:00] now, stuff that is starting to need replacing.

Payman Langroudi: The best teacher. Yeah. Because [00:37:05] sometimes, I mean, the longest I ever stayed anywhere was three, four years. But even in three, four years, [00:37:10] some stuff failed. Oh, some stuff failed. Yeah. And and it teaches you and it’s interesting. [00:37:15] We have a bit in this podcast. You said you’d listened before about mistakes. Yeah. And to try [00:37:20] and learn from each other’s mistakes a little bit because we tend to hide mistakes [00:37:25] in medical generally. You know, that black box thinking idea, you know that it’s [00:37:30] all about blame in medical, isn’t it?

Speaker 5: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what comes to mind? Let’s [00:37:35] let’s get to that darker part of the pod. What comes to mind mistakes wise clinically? [00:37:40] I think something that changed the way you practice.

Neil Sikka: I think you’re absolutely [00:37:45] right. You learn from your mistakes. And I will often see stuff that I’ve [00:37:50] done even five years ago. And you know what? I can do that better now. So I challenge myself [00:37:55] to come to improve all the time. And if I’m not doing that, [00:38:00] then I’m not doing right by my patients. So but I still have stuff that I’m seeing [00:38:05] that I did 30 years ago that’s still going strong. And my patients, especially when I say [00:38:10] to them, you know, this is only going to last ten years. And they, they laugh at me when they come and say, you’re not making any money out of me, Neil. [00:38:15] That’s okay. But I think what’s interesting about mistakes is [00:38:20] the approach to being a clinician. And I think we talk about [00:38:25] clinical excellence as being the most important thing. But I kind of I [00:38:30] think what I’ve learned as time has gone on, and especially having to run [00:38:35] my own business with, you know, lots of clinicians from different types of backgrounds [00:38:40] and different types of approaches is not so much about clinical excellence, but [00:38:45] how you become an excellent clinician. And, you know, we’re [00:38:50] in the medical profession, love our alliterative mnemonics. You know, we [00:38:55] remember the facial nerves and the cranial nerves and the things that we can’t repeat [00:39:00] now and how we remembered them.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I always think now, and I try [00:39:05] and I use that, I still use that same approach and I think about what makes an [00:39:10] excellent clinician as opposed to clinical excellence. And I think about, you know, obviously your clinical skills have got [00:39:15] to be really important. But then I think your commercial skills, you’ve got to understand your [00:39:20] value to yourself, your value to the patient and your value to the business that you work [00:39:25] in. Um, I think you’ve got to, as I said, you’ve got to constantly want [00:39:30] to improve. So that’s not just about looking at your work and saying, how could have [00:39:35] I done that better? A few years down the line. But also CPD is really important. And [00:39:40] then I think the fourth one is communication. You know, you’ve got to be [00:39:45] a good communicator or learn how to be a good communicator, a good listener to your patients, [00:39:50] but also to the people that you work with. You can’t be a good team member unless you’re a good communicator. [00:39:55] And I think finally, compassion. I think we’re in a profession [00:40:00] where we have to be compassionate. And if we can do those five things, I think those are the the [00:40:05] basic tenets of being an excellent clinician.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I want some examples of where one [00:40:10] of those things failed.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God, I probably miss it. I mean, I can’t remember [00:40:15] the last time I’ve actually looked at a treatment as, as completely failed apart [00:40:20] from actually, no, that’s not true. Um, there was an implant, um, [00:40:25] that had failed implants. No, I don’t place I restore, but I can remember [00:40:30] recently where an implant had failed on a patient. And the reason why it [00:40:35] had probably failed was because I hadn’t realised what a bruxas they were. And so [00:40:40] I produced a cram, put it in place and the implant looked perfect. Um, I thought [00:40:45] the restoration was perfect. A year later, the implant basically fell out. Um, [00:40:50] and looking at his bite again, um, it was probably [00:40:55] down to the fact that I hadn’t properly adjusted the occlusion to allow [00:41:00] for his bruxism. So that’s a simple.

Payman Langroudi: The cause of most mistakes, even [00:41:05] in bleaching.

Neil Sikka: But then you are still learning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The most important thing in [00:41:10] bleaching is bruxism. Can you believe it? Ridiculous. It just gets in the way, doesn’t [00:41:15] it? At every turn. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And probably one of the most misunderstood [00:41:20] elements of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So, okay, there was that case. [00:41:25] Do you want to talk about business mistakes, like in the Barbican [00:41:30] years? Did you. Was there what was the darkest day?

Neil Sikka: I [00:41:35] think one of the darkest days is one of my corporate [00:41:40] clients rang up, really concerned about the [00:41:45] treatment that one of their employees had received from one of my dentists. And there was [00:41:50] an underlying theme that they might pull the whole contract, even though I had 2000 employees on [00:41:55] a Dental plan.

Payman Langroudi: Over one patient, what was the situation?

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:42:00] the dentist had, um, fitted a crown post crown and said, [00:42:05] oh, this will last you forever. And it fell out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. [00:42:10]

Neil Sikka: Never say that. Especially about a.

Payman Langroudi: Crown.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And [00:42:15] it would come out and the but the patient had kicked up a fuss [00:42:20] and they were very senior in the organisation. And so that was quite [00:42:25] a dark moment. And I managed to to pull it back and um they remained a client [00:42:30] for the rest of the time. Um and I think that was quite tough.

Payman Langroudi: It must [00:42:35] have been a darker moment than that though.

Neil Sikka: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not have like a, I don’t know, a senior member [00:42:40] of staff suddenly leave?

Neil Sikka: Well, I had a, I had a quite a difficult period. [00:42:45] I had a, um, you know, I had a partner at the beginning and we [00:42:50] didn’t get on. Um and it was for both of us, I think it was, it was a [00:42:55] dark time. It wasn’t just me. Um, and I think we just weren’t well matched. We [00:43:00] were put together, we didn’t really know each other. And um, you know, that was quite [00:43:05] a dark time to try and extricate both of ourselves in the [00:43:10] right way. Um, from that.

Payman Langroudi: How many practices in were you before that [00:43:15] happened?

Neil Sikka: Uh, two practices.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so very early on. And were you 50/50 partners? [00:43:20] Mhm. Yeah. I guess that must have been a challenge, right?

Neil Sikka: But I, you know, we sorted [00:43:25] it out, moved forward.

Payman Langroudi: You’re no longer friends. You [00:43:30] were never friends in the first place.

Neil Sikka: I think we were ever really friends, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know how some people [00:43:35] can do business with anybody? And then other people, myself [00:43:40] included, can only do business with people you fully trust? Um, [00:43:45] do you know what I mean by that? I’ve got some friends there. Like they’re on the they’ve got [00:43:50] a share in 1214 companies. And I’m like, well, how the hell did you [00:43:55] come across 14 different people like that, that you fully trust and trust isn’t even part of it. [00:44:00] They just get their bit done. Yeah. And they make sure everyone else [00:44:05] does their bit and that’s that end of it. Whereas for me, it feels like almost [00:44:10] like a marriage and you have to fully trust this person.

Neil Sikka: And, and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Probably a more [00:44:15] unsuccessful way of living.

Neil Sikka: I’m a bit of the, I probably, I learned early on actually, [00:44:20] um, from somebody that and I was like, you, I thought you have to [00:44:25] get on really well and have to be buddies and kind of friends. Yeah. With people that you do [00:44:30] business with. And I learned from very on because I, there was somebody I was negotiating with, um, [00:44:35] who was really, I didn’t, didn’t like very much at all. And I don’t think he liked me [00:44:40] and, and um, he said that to me once he said, he said, the thing is, Neil, you don’t really [00:44:45] understand. Um, and I was quite young at the time and he said, you don’t understand Neil. You know, you [00:44:50] don’t have to like the people you do business with. You just have to get the job done. Yeah. And I kind of [00:44:55] learned that because I’m not going out for dinner with you. I’m not going out for a beer. As long as we are both, um, [00:45:00] fulfilling our needs to that relationship, that’s all [00:45:05] you need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um, and I think in [00:45:10] certain situations that works really well, but I think it does help a lot [00:45:15] with the people that you work with within a business. So the people that you employ, for instance, [00:45:20] whatever that you, you like and trust them, I think that’s a different relationship than, [00:45:25] um, you know, kind of business relationships in terms of contract relationships [00:45:30] with external providers.

Payman Langroudi: How did you take to going from, you know, a [00:45:35] small business to a gigantic business like Bupa? Did you, you know, manage the [00:45:40] sort of politics, call it the corporate speak the [00:45:45] way that I don’t know, in huge organisations, you really aren’t free to say what you want. Whereas [00:45:50] in your own business you were ahead of that business. You probably. I did, [00:45:55] you did it go easily for you or did you find it quite funny?

Neil Sikka: My wife is the one that says [00:46:00] that you. I find it really surprising that you transferred from being an owner manager of quite a large business [00:46:05] to being, um, you know, an employee effectively within [00:46:10] a and, and I have to say, I, [00:46:15] I don’t know if it would have worked for me 25 years ago because I was quite [00:46:20] headstrong in terms of what I wanted to do, where I was going, how I was going to get there. But I [00:46:25] loved being part of a team. Now, you know, I’m a cog in a wheel as opposed [00:46:30] to the only person that’s effectively driving the car.

Payman Langroudi: You you don’t get sleepless nights [00:46:35] like you used to, I suppose. Not in the.

Neil Sikka: Same.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

Neil Sikka: I probably you know, it’s interesting you [00:46:40] say that I probably, um, I never used to worry at all. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: I probably it’s not within you.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s I think with age you become more of a worrier. [00:46:50] I don’t know, maybe I don’t know, but sometimes I’m more anxious than I probably used to be about [00:46:55] much bigger things.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. Yeah. That’s interesting.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So it’s, it is [00:47:00] interesting. But I, I, you know, I really enjoy being part of an organisation [00:47:05] that I love being part of. I mean, for me, the biggest thing about Bupa is it [00:47:10] doesn’t have shareholders doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Pay.

Neil Sikka: Dividends.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very different corporate isn’t it?

Neil Sikka: A very different structure. And [00:47:15] that’s what I love about it. It means that we are there trying to really [00:47:20] at the bottom line, when you know, our strapline is longer, happier, healthier lives, brave, caring, [00:47:25] responsible, um, and ultimately it permeates the fact [00:47:30] that we don’t have shareholders, we don’t pay dividends. That idea permeates throughout the whole business [00:47:35] because we’re not just doing it for the sake of these shareholders. They’re getting paid all this money at the top. [00:47:40] So it all goes back into the business for the benefit. So I really like that. [00:47:45] Um, you know, it’s a wonderful experience. So for me, it’s, it’s been, [00:47:50] it’s not been a difficult transition in many ways. And I think it’s [00:47:55] the funniest thing is I think a lot of people find difficult is when they own a practice [00:48:00] and then they sell it and they still working in that practice and things aren’t done the way that they want them to be done. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The classic. Right.

Neil Sikka: It’s funny, I was like, so I still work in the same [00:48:10] practice that I, I put in place. I merged a couple of practices about 15 years [00:48:15] ago in that same building as the one that I work in, in central London, in Moorgate. And [00:48:20] now, and even when I, as soon as I sold it, it was like, well, that’s not [00:48:25] my problem. Now when something I don’t have to deal with that. And I was like, actually, that’s quite a breath of fresh air. Yeah, [00:48:30] I can come in. I concentrate on my dentistry. If there’s a problem, I highlight it, [00:48:35] but it’s not my job to deal with it. Whereas it was always my job.

Payman Langroudi: Ultimately [00:48:40] was your.

Neil Sikka: Job. Everything was my job. Yeah. You know, the buck always stopped with me at some stage. [00:48:45] Yeah. So you had to be on top of it all. But we have a very large organisation [00:48:50] now, so 8000 people in Bupa dental care alone.

Payman Langroudi: What do you struggle with [00:48:55] at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: What do I struggle with? [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Not you only.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I think, you know, I think it’s the nature of any large organisation [00:49:05] is agility. Yeah. Get things done quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: We’ve [00:49:10] often got to jump through many more hoops than I’d like to implement something, [00:49:15] put a pilot in place, put a new product in. That kind [00:49:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Is used to it now.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I accept it and [00:49:25] I understand the reasons why. I mean, our brand, you know, we are the leading healthcare particularly strong. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a particularly.

Neil Sikka: It’s also means we’ve got, we have a responsibility [00:49:35] to ensure that it stays strong. Yeah. And that means our governance and our compliance [00:49:40] and our, you know, our processes have to be such that we don’t put the [00:49:45] brand at risk. And so as an entrepreneur, I’m like, [00:49:50] come on, let’s just get this done and let’s just try it in a couple of practices and move on. You know, let’s do this. [00:49:55] But our processes don’t allow us to do that because our head is above the parapet. [00:50:00] You know, we’re easily shot down. And you know, if some if someone’s [00:50:05] going to go for anyone in terms of regulation and compliance, they’re going to come for us. So I, [00:50:10] you know, it’s something you have to accept, but it is something that I’ve, I’ve always found challenging [00:50:15] because I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be difficult, right? Because you’re always acting from a defensive posture rather [00:50:20] than from an attacking posture, you know, as a, as, as the entrepreneur, that [00:50:25] you were 1 to 10 practices in ten years and, you know, great new [00:50:30] ideas and all of that. It’s a sort of an attack. It’s like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a like, [00:50:35] like I said before, it’s, it’s having sort of the future is brighter than, you know, let’s just go for it. [00:50:40]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’m still the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, you know, you said it doesn’t have any shareholders. But, you know, [00:50:45] the brand is the shareholder in a way, isn’t it? Yeah. And it must be hard to make that transition. [00:50:50] At the same time, you’re right in that it doesn’t feel like another corporate when when when [00:50:55] you talk to the people at Bupa, they’re not just about [00:51:00] the bottom line, which a lot of corporates feel like they are. I mean, but I don’t mean [00:51:05] corporate dentists, even just companies.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, we I mean, we still [00:51:10] have to think about the bottom line. We have to, in order to in like in any business, [00:51:15] if you have to be able to make money to be able to reinvest for the benefit of [00:51:20] everybody. Yeah. But I think for me, I think I, I find that, [00:51:25] um, I, I still will have ideas, I still will push things forward, [00:51:30] but it’s not for me to say, no, you can’t do that. Someone else will say, no, we’re going to do this [00:51:35] this way. And we’re going to do have a policy and process in place to ensure that we do it properly. I say fine, I’ll just keep [00:51:40] bringing the ideas to the table. My job is to look at innovation, look at the future, look [00:51:45] at how the mouth body connection is going to change the way that we deliver dentistry [00:51:50] in the future. There’s somebody else’s job to say, whoa, let’s just [00:51:55] take one step at a time. So, and that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: So I can I come to that unbelievable training [00:52:00] academy?

Neil Sikka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, when was it? A month ago or so. Unbelievable. [00:52:05] Thank you. Really beautiful. And and not just pretty. [00:52:10] It wasn’t. It wasn’t about that. It was. It was well thought out. And I came away from it thinking [00:52:15] that, you know, only a Bupa could have done what [00:52:20] you guys did there, you know. So, you know, living up to your USP in [00:52:25] a way, what you said about the insurance product and the dental product, only Bupa can connect those [00:52:30] two dots because you have both sides, right? But knowing how slow things can [00:52:35] be, how long ago was the first time someone said, let’s do a training centre.

Neil Sikka: You know.

Payman Langroudi: How long [00:52:40] did that take?

Neil Sikka: I was surprised at how quick it went, really. I think it was. I remember the [00:52:45] first calls saying, do you think a training centre for us? Because they were looking [00:52:50] at all the business units and they were trying to put it all under one roof in terms of Bupa campus, [00:52:55] we call it. Yeah. And then the training academy would sit under the campus because [00:53:00] and they would and they were looking at all the business units, and they were asking [00:53:05] me and the other members of the team, do you think of Dental Training Academy would be of use and and [00:53:10] why? And basically, you know, we know that, um, there’s [00:53:15] a real challenge in terms of recruiting and retaining clinicians all around the country. And [00:53:20] we’re all competing for that for that pie. Um, so how can we separate ourselves? [00:53:25] So absolutely. I was right behind it. But I think, you know, I think start to finish probably 18 [00:53:30] months.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Neil Sikka: No, I was I was blown over. Unless I’ve missed a year, I might have missed a year. It [00:53:35] feels like 18 months to me. It feels like it. And it’s been [00:53:40] you know, it’s been phenomenal because you talked about it. So many people externally have [00:53:45] talked about it. And that’s what we want because we want the industry, the Dental industry to take [00:53:50] us seriously, that we’re committed to really, you know, enabling [00:53:55] our clinical workforce to grow and develop. Um, and this is, you know, this is a [00:54:00] perfect way of doing it. So, you know, I was, I have to say, looking back, it’s probably one [00:54:05] of the quickest things we implemented.

Payman Langroudi: Very impressive. I mean, there was the virtual reality [00:54:10] piece. Yeah, there was this amazing projection mapping room.

Neil Sikka: Oh yeah. That room where you’re just [00:54:15] completely surrounded and then you just touch things on the.

Payman Langroudi: Wall and you move stuff around. And [00:54:20] for me, it wasn’t even what was being shown there. It was the possibilities. [00:54:25] Yeah. You know, like what could happen in a room like that? Because it’s all, I mean, to describe [00:54:30] it to people like the all four walls were a complete projection that you [00:54:35] could have anything touch. You could touch the wall and move anything around. You could get inside [00:54:40] the mouth, rotate things just.

Neil Sikka: From a training perspective. Amazing. Make it really [00:54:45] interactive so anyone can, you know, you can say right Payman you go and tell me, talk to [00:54:50] me, talk me through this, how you do this treatment here. And you have to do it by touching the wall. And [00:54:55] it’s amazing. I mean, the way technology is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you call that room?

Neil Sikka: I’m not sure. [00:55:00] Maybe the interactive room.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure. Something like that.

Neil Sikka: Something like that. [00:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s stunning. Really, really, really stunning. Yeah. And I thought I wasn’t expecting things to be [00:55:10] like that. I really wasn’t there was the mannequins that were breathing and.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:55:15] Or fogging up your mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So interesting, so [00:55:20] interesting. So where do you see the future for you? Have [00:55:25] you got a plan or are you just loving life and you’re just.

Neil Sikka: Well, in terms of professionally, [00:55:30] personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’m a, I’m in a I’m [00:55:35] in a good place, if I’m honest. I only took this role on a, I see I’ve been the chief dental [00:55:40] officer for 11 years since 2014, but [00:55:45] I only took this new role on um, when Mark decided Mark Allen, I chief executive, [00:55:50] decided that he was going to form this clinical advisory team because he said he didn’t at that time, um, [00:55:55] have any clinical representation on the board. And he realised that we needed a clinical [00:56:00] voice.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy when you think about it. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was the one that recognised it. We did have previously a clinical director, [00:56:05] but then when they left they didn’t replace in the same way. And they wanted the teams to work in a different way. [00:56:10] So they needed that board representation because otherwise, [00:56:15] you know, you know what it’s like in an operating environment. You need to have an [00:56:20] understanding of, of how things will be applied on a clinical level, not just within a, [00:56:25] within the clinical level, but also how reception teams are going to work with a new [00:56:30] new process, your practice managers, all that kind of stuff. So we need to have that and that’s [00:56:35] been great. So we are that clinical voice to the board. I love that. And that’s [00:56:40] only a year and a half in.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your group of four.

Neil Sikka: That’s my gang of four. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you Annie. [00:56:45]

Neil Sikka: Me. Annie. Annie is our head of general dentistry. Um, Caitlin is our head of hygiene [00:56:50] and therapy, and Amelia is our head of dental nursing. And so we’re the we’re [00:56:55] the for people that represent the clinical workforce to the senior leadership.

Payman Langroudi: And part of your [00:57:00] job is to go out and talk to loads of people and feedback.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I’ve just spent two days [00:57:05] up in Yorkshire travelling around a whole load of our practices there. Um talking to [00:57:10] clinicians, talking to the practice managers. We had a lovely dinner together, really just [00:57:15] helping, you know, understanding where are the pain points, where are the challenges. You don’t get [00:57:20] that on a teams call. You get it by sitting down and having a proper chat and, and [00:57:25] really investing the time and then feeding that back. Um, as to, [00:57:30] you know, what are we doing? Right. What’s the general feeling on the ground? What should we be [00:57:35] doing differently? So in terms of where I’m going, I mean, I’m hoping that I’ve [00:57:40] got a few more years left in me yet. Um, I’m really enjoying this journey. But the thing is this. [00:57:45] I’m really excited about what the future holds. I mean, I’ve talked about the mouth body connection. I really do [00:57:50] fundamentally believe that dentists, the dental practice is going [00:57:55] to change in future in the way that healthcare is delivered through dentistry. We’re already [00:58:00] doing blood pressure pilots within the NHS, within dental practices, our own dental practices. [00:58:05] We’re starting to do, um, HB one AC, diabetic finger prick testing. [00:58:10]

Neil Sikka: You know, there are there are apparently a million people that are undiagnosed diabetics. We know [00:58:15] the links between oral health and diabetes. So why should we as dental [00:58:20] practices not be at the forefront of that? We look at our genomics project. How [00:58:25] are we going to look at genome sequencing in terms of risk factors for periodontal [00:58:30] health. You know, I was at a lecture at the dentistry show where the lecturer and I hope she won’t [00:58:35] be asked me saying Reena Wadia and she did a brilliant lecture and she said 80% [00:58:40] of the reaction to bacteria and plaque is a host response. And there’s not a lot you can do about [00:58:45] it. So that is genetic. Yeah. So how do we then find out what [00:58:50] those are? So to me, the future is incredibly exciting. And the fact that I’m doing [00:58:55] my one day a week and I’ve got all this other time to really find out what’s [00:59:00] going on and, and be in a position to influence how we implement it is a [00:59:05] great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No it is. It really is.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your gears [00:59:10] about dentistry?

Neil Sikka: What grinds my gears? It’s a [00:59:15] difficult one, really, because I’m. I’m probably not that I’m too much of an optimist [00:59:20] to really go. What really annoys me about dentistry, I think. Okay. [00:59:25]

Payman Langroudi: Deep breath.

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:59:30] dear. Okay, I. [00:59:35] This is making me sound like a grumpy old man. [00:59:40]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram. Instagram. Are you.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. The Instagram age of personal branding [00:59:45] for dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And easy does it.

Neil Sikka: I just think I [00:59:50] think people sometimes want to run before they can walk. And I think we’re in a business. [00:59:55] We’re we’re here to deliver health care to our patients, not [01:00:00] just to give them great smiles. I know that’s part of it, but we should be able to [01:00:05] do everything. And when you see people that, um, you know, [01:00:10] that can’t that want to promote themselves in a certain way, but [01:00:15] actually can’t do the basics. I think I find that annoying because that’s what we’re here to provide. [01:00:20] Um, you know, we provide to, to provide proper care for our patients. [01:00:25] And I suppose that’s one thing that kind of gets my what if.

Payman Langroudi: What if someone is a endodontist [01:00:30] and can’t pull out teeth and can’t, can’t, can’t do anything else [01:00:35] other than endo, but they’ve got no problem with that, right?

Neil Sikka: No, I haven’t, because.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve gone through the process. Do [01:00:40] we have a problem with this other person who wants to be a whatever? I don’t know, maybe because maybe you’re thinking of what a lime [01:00:45] bleach bond type dentist?

Neil Sikka: Potentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. People. That guy wants to do that.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, that’s fine, [01:00:50] but it’s not. I mean, but what are they doing about the rest of it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, it’s important. They can they can [01:00:55] they can refer at the right point.

Neil Sikka: But who are you going to afford to another general dentist because you’re not going to do. You’re [01:01:00] not going to do a filling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I think I don’t think that’s right. As a general [01:01:05] dentist I think. Why though? Because I was brought up as a as someone, as a general dentist, you [01:01:10] should be providing comprehensive care to a certain level at least. And if it’s beyond your limitations, you refer [01:01:15] to a specialist. Referring to another general dentist means that you’re not qualified enough to do your job. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ll tell you why. Why, why I’m much more like, uh. Happy about it than you are. Yeah. I [01:01:25] stopped practising for six years when we started the company. [01:01:30] And then I went back and started doing two days, three days, four days a week. And when [01:01:35] I went back, dentistry wasn’t my focus. Focus. Right. Enlightened was my focus. Okay. [01:01:40] And I thought, if it’s not my focus, I’m not going to just sit around doing nothing. Like, like doing [01:01:45] work that isn’t the best work. So I thought, I’m going to only do [01:01:50] the things that I’m really, really good at. And it basically came down to bleaching and bonding. [01:01:55] It did. Yeah. And I found I was referring a lot, a lot [01:02:00] of different things to different people because I didn’t need the money was the reason why I [01:02:05] was doing it. Yeah. Um, you know, if it was something that I thought I could do very well, I would do it [01:02:10] myself very well. Otherwise, I would let someone else do it. And, you know, those [01:02:15] patients ended up having better treatment because of it. Because, you know, I’m not the best in the [01:02:20] world at post crowds. Yeah. So I would never do a post crown and send that to [01:02:25] someone else. Yeah. Now, my point is this, that if someone wants to be that guy, let [01:02:30] him be that guy. But tell me about personal branding that grinds you. It’s like, do [01:02:35] you have some sort of distaste for a dentist? I don’t know. [01:02:40] Um, building audience and and working on social. I mean, some people say I’ve [01:02:45] had people say this. I find it very valid. Yeah. Social is a massive skill [01:02:50] in itself. Yeah, that takes a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. They should be spending the time learning [01:02:55] teeth and understanding people. You know what I mean? If you’re going to put time into something, don’t put it into social [01:03:00] media. I get that, I understand that.

Neil Sikka: I, you know, I don’t I don’t mind [01:03:05] the idea of building a personal brand when it’s done [01:03:10] in the right way. What I don’t particularly like is the whole kind [01:03:15] of bling side of it that goes with it in terms of fast cars, Private jets [01:03:20] and lifestyle stuff that goes with it. I [01:03:25] am very happy for people to be promoting their wonderful work. Yeah, [01:03:30] in terms of their personal brand. And that’s, that’s that I’m completely understandable. And [01:03:35] that’s something actually.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about the fast cars. Like what’s the problem with the guy showing his Ferrari? [01:03:40]

Neil Sikka: You know, the trouble is, is then dentists get a reputation that they’re all, you know, oh, look at all these rich dentists [01:03:45] driving around in their Ferraris.

Payman Langroudi: You think that’s the thing?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think it is, yes.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:03:50] no, it’s a thing, I think. But irrespective of whether one dentist is showing his Ferrari or not, you know, like the [01:03:55] it’s such an interesting thing. I remember when I was a dentist, when I was associate, I always used [01:04:00] to try and ask the nurse, how much do you think the boss [01:04:05] earns? Yeah. And the numbers that would come out like these ridiculous numbers, like [01:04:10] ridiculous numbers, something you wouldn’t even get anywhere near like maybe like [01:04:15] ten times what the guy was actually earning, you know, And and and you say why, you know why, [01:04:20] why, why. Oh, he’s got a swimming pool.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right. He’s, he’s [01:04:25] got a swimming pool. Um, and then you’d get, you’d get some dentists who have a really nice car. They wouldn’t [01:04:30] drive to work so that their nurse wouldn’t think they’re rich or something. Yeah. [01:04:35]

Neil Sikka: I think it’s a difficult one because I think, you know, you work hard, you earn money. You, you, [01:04:40] you deserve the rewards of what you’re working. I just think.

Payman Langroudi: If I had a Ferrari, I wouldn’t stick it [01:04:45] on the internet. I get it.

Neil Sikka: That’s all I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Saying. I get it, but you know, it’s society’s got to that [01:04:50] point now where where some people want to do.

Neil Sikka: I think what you want to do in your own time, I think is absolutely [01:04:55] fine. I think it’s shoving it down people’s throats. It’s the thing that. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, anyone who really has, uh, private jets and things never, ever puts it online. [01:05:05] Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:05:10] all right, so that grinds your gears. Um, what [01:05:15] is the future going to be for pupa? Are you guys going to add more practices? [01:05:20] Are you going to consolidate? Is it going to be more about this, uh health [01:05:25] mouth connection?

Neil Sikka: I think the mouth body connection [01:05:30] is going to be a big focus for us. I mean, we are in a very unique position to [01:05:35] be able to leverage the knowledge that we have and the data as well within all our business [01:05:40] units. I mean, if we think about, for instance, just a simple thing like, um, [01:05:45] gum disease and, and, and so if you think about, um, [01:05:50] our claims data, if you think you have gum disease, a lot of people have gum disease will have a tooth extracted. [01:05:55] So if we look at our claims data for those people that [01:06:00] have claimed for a dental extraction, they’re 70% more likely to claim under [01:06:05] their medical insurance.

Payman Langroudi: For something else.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. For something under their medical policy. [01:06:10] Mhm. So this is us using data to start to show the power [01:06:15] of oral health. Now, we can’t say that. Oh, just because I’ve had an extraction, that means it [01:06:20] caused that. But we know that the links are there. All the clinical studies are showing that. [01:06:25] So for me, the future is, is how are we going to use [01:06:30] this incredible data knowledge and also expertise within our different business [01:06:35] units to, um, to, to really connect [01:06:40] together to deliver comprehensive care for our patients. So in [01:06:45] terms of Bupa dental for the future, I think we’re concentrating on our existing [01:06:50] portfolio, but we are looking at where we can grow our existing [01:06:55] surgeries practices because they’re at capacity. And they and we [01:07:00] know that there is the need there. That is where we’re concentrating and just being [01:07:05] much more analytical about, um, our, [01:07:10] our approach to growth. So looking at [01:07:15] the data properly, not just our, our, our provision data, but also the [01:07:20] data of our connected care businesses.

Payman Langroudi: What does your week look like?

Neil Sikka: So [01:07:25] Mondays always surgery. So that’s my [01:07:30] surgery day. I shut off my computers and I just literally concentrate on my patients. And I love [01:07:35] that day because it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you’re at 9 to 5.

Neil Sikka: And I go in at 830, [01:07:40] I probably leave about six. Um, well, I get in about eight and leave at six and it’s a, it’s a full [01:07:45] day, but that’s fine. But I, you know, and I.

Payman Langroudi: What was your day of rest?

Neil Sikka: It is, it’s almost like my day off [01:07:50] because it’s like I’m not, I’m not, I’m not having any noise around me. I’m just concentrating on the people in front [01:07:55] of me and really just enjoying the vacation.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: And then [01:08:00] the rest of the week, um, I probably the majority of the time is spent in my role as a director of [01:08:05] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but physically, are you working from home?

Neil Sikka: I’ll be working from home. [01:08:10] We have a it’s funny. We have a head office right next to my practice in [01:08:15] Margate where I work, which is Angel court, which is our worldwide head office. So [01:08:20] I’ll often be in there for meetings. We have our Dental head office in Bristol, so I’ll [01:08:25] be there. We have our board meetings, um, every month we get together [01:08:30] at different sites. I’ll be out and about visiting practices. I’ll [01:08:35] be working from home. You know, I like to do every [01:08:40] week. Um, it’s probably more like every month, a [01:08:45] couple of days I try and get out a bit. Um, and then I’ve got my insurance job [01:08:50] as well. So I will be helping the insurance team to design insurance products. I’ll [01:08:55] be pitching. So when we’re going out to try and sell a dental insurance product [01:09:00] to a new client or renewal meetings with existing clients. So we’ll have. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: You do that actual pitch to a company.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, because I’m not you see, I’m not selling a product. I’m. [01:09:10] I’m promoting a service which is very different. So I come at it from a clinical [01:09:15] angle and why it’s important for your employees oral health to have this [01:09:20] and to support it with the facts. So I’ll I’ll, you know, [01:09:25] I’ll be out there. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll bring me in for the big pictures. [01:09:30] Um, and I’ll be out there because that’s what I used to do. That was, that’s what I used to do [01:09:35] myself when I was for Barbican days. I was out there pitching.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll give you an example. It’s like we’re talking some fortune [01:09:40] 500 company or whatever.

Neil Sikka: All of them. Yeah. All the top.

Payman Langroudi: Like a giant employer. Yeah. [01:09:45] And you’re trying to get Dental as part of the benefits. Yes. So [01:09:50] it must be a much bigger business in the US than here, right. We don’t have here.

Neil Sikka: What [01:09:55] you’re talking about, dental insurance as a business or or Bupa in America.

Payman Langroudi: No, dental [01:10:00] insurance is a business.

Neil Sikka: No dental insurance in America is massive. Yeah. I mean, in the UK, um, [01:10:05] I think it’s around about, uh, dental insurance as a business [01:10:10] is about £200 million of insurance premiums here, which is peanuts. Yeah, but we’ve got [01:10:15] there’s massive potential.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What about the proposition for associates? [01:10:20] I’m an associate.

Neil Sikka: I’m an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:10:25] I’m not an associate. But if I was an associate and I’ve got on [01:10:30] one side an independent practice principles on site, they look like they’re [01:10:35] doing things ethically. On the other side, I’ve got a gigantic corporate, faceless, [01:10:40] nameless. And then on the other side we’ve got Bupa. Let’s say, let’s say we’ve got these three choices, the value [01:10:45] prop that you present. And we talked about some of the stuff that we said about, you know, the training centre training. [01:10:50]

Neil Sikka: Academy and but.

Payman Langroudi: What is what’s the pitch that, you know, what’s, what’s what is the [01:10:55] value prop that an associate gets from Bupa sort of clinical freedom as a thing?

Neil Sikka: I mean, [01:11:00] clinical freedom is a given. You know, you there is no there [01:11:05] is no onus on the individual to work in a certain way. As an associate [01:11:10] within Bupa Dental Care, you have complete clinical freedom as a as a self-employed because [01:11:15] you’re a self-employed principal. I get it in your.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. And that sounds like fun, doesn’t it? That sounds great for for, [01:11:20] for an associate. But you talk about this brand, right? One of the most powerful [01:11:25] brands, full stop, not just brands in health care. I’m a consumer. I walk into [01:11:30] a business with that brand on the on the wall. As a consumer, I would expect [01:11:35] certain clinical fundamentals to come out from every [01:11:40] single place that has that over the wall. But now you’re telling me full clinical freedom. So [01:11:45] one associate could do X, the other associate could do Y. How do you how do you square that circle?

Neil Sikka: Well, [01:11:50] it’s a really difficult one because this is the whole problem in terms of trying to drive consistency. [01:11:55] When you have 2500 clinicians around the.

Payman Langroudi: With full freedom, right.

Neil Sikka: With [01:12:00] well, because they’re self-employed in their own right. But I mean, if you go back [01:12:05] a stage to what you said. Well, what what is it that an associate wants? I [01:12:10] mean, if I think of myself as an associate, if I was working in any environment, [01:12:15] I would want three things. I want to be working with a great team that provides me with [01:12:20] the support. I want my nurse to know exactly what she’s doing, to be really invested in [01:12:25] supporting me so that I don’t have to think too hard about, you know, I just know it’s all there [01:12:30] in terms of enabling me to do the best possible job for my patients. I [01:12:35] want to know that it’s a proud, I’m proud to walk into the practice that the environment [01:12:40] is nice.

Payman Langroudi: Feels good, looks good, feels good.

Neil Sikka: Look good. The equipment is good that the that [01:12:45] they’re investing in my future in terms of digital technology, especially because [01:12:50] that’s where the future lies. And thirdly, you know, I want to be busy. So [01:12:55] I want to I want a business that’s going to put bums on seats for me. Yeah. So those are the three fundamental [01:13:00] things. Now, I mean, there are there are some independent [01:13:05] practices that do an amazing job and they and they have incredible, um, [01:13:10] local brand awareness and power and [01:13:15] they, you know, and we, we can’t compete with them in some ways because they [01:13:20] have, you know, they, they know, they do, they do an incredible job of all those [01:13:25] things for their associates. And I think where we can, [01:13:30] um, where we can hopefully leverage those relationships is there’s, there’s [01:13:35] certainly clinical and potentially non-clinical, um, um, opportunities. [01:13:40] So within our training academy, within our management structure, there’s [01:13:45] opportunities for dentists to get involved in different ways. But if you just want to be an associate [01:13:50] and you want to come in to your practice, I think it’s, I think it’s nice to be [01:13:55] part of an organisation, as I say, that, um, puts the health, the, the health [01:14:00] care of our people first in terms of the fact that we’re not we’re not always paying [01:14:05] big dividends out to shareholders. I think that’s a really nice thought [01:14:10] to have when you come in as an associate. And just the general vibe actually, [01:14:15] that you’re part of a group of people, I’m really surprised that, you know, well, I’m not surprised. But when I go around our [01:14:20] practices, it’s just lovely to meet people that really care. And I think [01:14:25] that is something that we try and engender as.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to pull off across 350 sites. [01:14:30]

Neil Sikka: And you’re not going to get it right every time. And, you know, and we are going to have our challenges. And also [01:14:35] this consistency that you talk about is something that is really, really difficult. [01:14:40] We try and do it in certain ways with us, you [01:14:45] know, things like our, our website and our online booking process. And perhaps [01:14:50] we’re helping to train receptionists to try and deliver similar service [01:14:55] levels to people when they walk through the door. Um, there’s no way that I [01:15:00] could say we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve nailed that at all. And it’s part of [01:15:05] a journey. Um, but we, but, but we’re very aware that, I [01:15:10] mean, I love us to be able to give a consistent. I did that at Barbican. I wanted people to have [01:15:15] a consistent, um experience, whichever of my practices that they walked into. [01:15:20] And that’s ultimately what we would like to do within our Bupa environment to [01:15:25] a certain extent, because we have NHS practices, we have purely private [01:15:30] practices, we have specialist practices and we have some we have orthodontic practices. [01:15:35] We have practices in Ireland where they don’t where we don’t have dental [01:15:40] insurance. We. So we do have different brands within [01:15:45] under under the Bupa banner. So, um, it’s not going to be always the same [01:15:50] experience, but if you would go to a certain type of practice, which is similar to another, I’d love that [01:15:55] to be consistent, but I, I won’t say we’re there yet.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, in Barbican, when [01:16:00] you were trying to keep things consistent, were you telling the dentist they had to do anything? Like [01:16:05] for instance, if I, if I, if I had a group of practices, [01:16:10] which I don’t, but if I did, I might say to all my clinicians that at [01:16:15] this business, we take photographs of every patient for the sake of the argument. Yeah. [01:16:20] I you know, whatever it is.

Neil Sikka: I it’s funny, I think what I [01:16:25] said, I think the one thing that I said to all the associates that would come and work with me, and it was [01:16:30] about, um, it was about putting the care of the patient [01:16:35] first fundamentally. And I said, if you’re here to make a quick buck, that’s all you’re going to make. [01:16:40] But if you put the care of the patient first, I’ve got to trust that you have the experience [01:16:45] and the knowledge. If you haven’t, I will find out because we’ll do our clinical audits regularly. [01:16:50] So the quality of your treatment has got to be the same. But also the [01:16:55] difficulty is the recommendation of treatment is different between different and you’re never going to change [01:17:00] that. Um, but I put it down initially to how a [01:17:05] patient would feel sitting in your chair versus sitting in another person’s [01:17:10] chair. Because ultimately, you know, the old saying, Maya Angelou, you know, people [01:17:15] will not remember what you say. They’ll never remember what you do, but they’ll always remember the way that you made them [01:17:20] feel. Yeah. And if we can make them have that feeling, I don’t know if you’ve seen our fluffy chair campaign. [01:17:25] Beautiful. But that’s the whole point about it. It’s like we have an amazing NPS score. [01:17:30] It’s about 86 now, I think, or something. And that is, you know, it’s world leading. [01:17:35] So we wanted to support that with a campaign that shows that you can feel at ease [01:17:40] when you come into our.

Payman Langroudi: I was quite surprised when I saw that actually, I didn’t expect it to go that sort of outside [01:17:45] the box. It was quite nice to see.

Neil Sikka: I love it and it’s had an amazing response [01:17:50] from the market. Yeah. Because it’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: It’s not about we’ll do this [01:17:55] treatment or that treatment. It’s treatments just know we’ll we’ll make you feel at ease. Yeah, yeah. And that’s [01:18:00] to me, the core of everything that I would like people to do.

Payman Langroudi: A [01:18:05] couple of quick fire questions. Um, what comes [01:18:10] to mind when I say what’s the best Dental lecture you’ve ever been to?

Neil Sikka: Oh. [01:18:15] There was a chap called. [01:18:20] Do you ever remember a chap called Gordon Christiansen?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Used to do that report.

Neil Sikka: I [01:18:25] used to. Yeah. Well he still does. It’s not him but it’s somebody else that does it. It was called the Clinical Research Associates. [01:18:30] And it was a thing that you got in the post.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. But he used to come to the UK and do these [01:18:35] lectures.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Neil Sikka: And it was all about everything that’s on the market. He’d run through it independently [01:18:40] tested.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I.

Neil Sikka: Remember. And he would, he would talk about, um, [01:18:45] you know, all the different products. And I thought those, those lectures were so important formative [01:18:50] because, you know, you want to be able to walk away from your lecture at least taking a [01:18:55] few key messages, right? If I could take 2 or 3 key things that I could [01:19:00] put into practice. The other person was a chap called John Cranham. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember [01:19:05] him.

Neil Sikka: He was amazing. And he gave such beautiful lectures. And again, in [01:19:10] terms of design for anterior cosmetic work and just to be really formalised [01:19:15] about your approach, he was brilliant at that. Um, and the other person was a chap called [01:19:20] was it Yan Pamir? He was, he was a chap from Sweden who also [01:19:25] did such beautiful work, but also simplified it so that he, [01:19:30] you could as a, you know, humble general practitioner, could try [01:19:35] and put a few of those things into, into, into practice. When you get.

Payman Langroudi: These important what you’re [01:19:40] saying about simplifying something, because a lot of lecturers go the opposite direction. They make things more complicated [01:19:45] than they need to be.

Neil Sikka: Well, they want to show off their how brilliant they are at doing this complicated work. But then you think, [01:19:50] well, when am I ever going to do that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Although at the same time we supply [01:19:55] we do education as well. We do composite bonding courses. Okay. You do have to think that, [01:20:00] you know, there’s going to be someone in the room who’s quite experienced already, and then someone who’s a complete beginner. And how [01:20:05] do you pitch it so that everyone gets something out of it? Yeah. So, you know, it’s [01:20:10] a difficult needle to dance on sometimes. What about if I say favourite book or [01:20:15] resource? You know, I don’t know, uh, Instagram page. [01:20:20]

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’ve got to say I use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I find [01:20:25] it a really useful resource for, um.

Payman Langroudi: But. Dental. Dental.

Neil Sikka: Dental. [01:20:30] Dental stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Keep up with what’s.

Neil Sikka: Going health care stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: For, um, [01:20:35] just general market overview. Yeah. Um, I find it a really good resource [01:20:40] and I can flick and I can just go, oh, that’s a really interesting one. And I’ll, you know, Mark’s really good [01:20:45] at sharing things as well. So he’s a great resource.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:50] bet he is.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So, so I mean, I, yeah, probably [01:20:55] use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Does a teacher stand out like a, someone from university or someone [01:21:00] who inspired you or who’s a dentist who really inspires you?

Neil Sikka: Who [01:21:10] is a dentist? That really inspires me. [01:21:15] I think that’s there is there is somebody out [01:21:20] there who I have spent a bit of time with recently who is just is [01:21:25] incredible. His commitment to trying to really, [01:21:30] um, providing credible care, but also pushing the frontiers of [01:21:35] what you can do for patients. And there’s a chap called Miguel Stanley.

Payman Langroudi: I know Miguel. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So [01:21:40] I’ve been to his clinic in. Oh, have you in Lisbon? I spent time with him. He was a keynote [01:21:45] lecturer for us at our conference in January. And he’s someone [01:21:50] who.

Payman Langroudi: Outside the box thinking.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, but also is like making me challenge my own way [01:21:55] of thinking about what dentistry should be like in the future.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:22:00] That’s what you’re saying, that the mouth body connection, he’s definitely [01:22:05] involved.

Neil Sikka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In that. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And he’s a forefront because he, he, you [01:22:10] know, everything is based on science with him. And he does his research. He’ll test things out and [01:22:15] he’ll he will report back on it in terms of what’s working within [01:22:20] his clinic.

Payman Langroudi: How about your free time? Let’s say you had an afternoon [01:22:25] off from everything.

Speaker 5: When’s that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Let’s imagine [01:22:30] I could, I could I could make that happen. Well.

Neil Sikka: I fiddle in people’s mouths, but I’m [01:22:35] also a fiddler violin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So I play the violin and a symphony orchestra. [01:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Speaker 5: Do you? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I love doing that. Oh, that’s my Wednesday nights. Um. [01:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: As a child, did you learn?

Neil Sikka: I learned as a child, as I was saying, you know, I was sent away to boarding [01:22:50] school and I played I was a music scholar and I played it excellent. So and I loved that. I really [01:22:55] love that. It’s, it’s like switch off time. Just really just get into it. [01:23:00] And I just that I.

Payman Langroudi: So how often do you play at home?

Neil Sikka: Well, I probably [01:23:05] practice a couple of times 2 to 3 times a week. Oh really? Um, when I’ve got. Well, [01:23:10] we do four concerts a year and so I’ve got to practice for the concert. So it gives me a real [01:23:15] focus because I’m in an orchestra where the standards are quite high and I’m probably [01:23:20] one of the least proficient, so I don’t want to show everybody up.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:25] where do you perform?

Neil Sikka: Um, it’s called the Brent Symphony Orchestra. So it’s in North London.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:23:30]

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No, I love doing that. Um, I play a very silly game [01:23:35] called Real Tennis. I was playing this morning.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Do you know real tennis?

Payman Langroudi: Real tennis? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:23:40] you play that?

Neil Sikka: Middlesex University, which is up in north London.

Payman Langroudi: Describe to someone who’s [01:23:45] never heard of it what happens in real tennis.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God. Well, it’s just something that the monks used to play in monasteries. [01:23:50] The French monks.

Payman Langroudi: Before tennis.

Neil Sikka: Right? Yeah, it was before tennis. And it’s basically [01:23:55] based around the cloisters of a of a monastery where you have a penthouse, [01:24:00] which is like a half roof that goes around, which is covered cloisters. And then [01:24:05] you have a net across the middle, and then you have a kink in a wall, and then you have holes in the wall. So [01:24:10] and it’s a it’s a normal tennis scoring, but it’s very strange about things that you [01:24:15] play in the game. So it’s too complicated to explain.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across fives?

Neil Sikka: Yes. I used [01:24:20] to play fives at school.

Payman Langroudi: I played five. There’s that thing that sticks out the buttress thing. It’s literally [01:24:25] part of a cathedral or something sticking in the middle of a squash court. Yeah. [01:24:30]

Neil Sikka: So I did that play golf.

Payman Langroudi: Played.

Neil Sikka: Quite a lot of golf weekends. We’re a big family of [01:24:35] golfers. All five of us. I’ve got three kids.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Neil Sikka: They? Oh, 27, 25 [01:24:40] and 19. None of them are at home anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Any dentist [01:24:45] types.

Neil Sikka: Know I’ve got. I’ve got a paediatric nurse. My daughter is a paediatric nurse. Uh, [01:24:50] another one works in finance. He lives in Manhattan and the other one’s just gone off to university. So no, [01:24:55] no, dentists couldn’t persuade them.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: Even though they said it was a. It [01:25:00] would be a great career for. I said it would be a great career for them.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s been a massive pleasure to have [01:25:05] you, man. Really, really. Thank you so much for coming all the way down.

Neil Sikka: Hey, look, it’s been a great pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: For a long time. [01:25:10] Long time organising this with you guys are busy. That’s what I think I’ve learned. [01:25:15] Yeah, but, um. No, I’ve learned a lot. Thank you so much for. For taking the time.

Neil Sikka: Well, thank you so [01:25:20] much for the invitation. It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve enjoyed that, man. Enjoyed [01:25:25] it.

Neil Sikka: Good God, is that an hour and a half?

Payman Langroudi: 20. [01:25:30]

Neil Sikka: Okay, good. Excellent. Oh, you didn’t ask [01:25:35] me about my three people I’d have around the dinner table.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, shit. Yeah, we have to do that. Oh. Do we? Yeah. Sorry, sorry, [01:25:40] sorry. So lost. Um. So final [01:25:45] question. Fantasy dinner party.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Neil Sikka: Okay. [01:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are you having.

Neil Sikka: So, um, [01:25:55] I think I’ve told you that I’m. I love playing golf. [01:26:00] Yeah. Uh, my favourite golfer of all time is Seve Ballesteros.

Payman Langroudi: Seve.

Neil Sikka: So, [01:26:05] you know, when I was young and he was such a magician. He’s still alive? No, [01:26:10] he had a brain tumour, and he died in his 50s, which was a real, real shame. But he [01:26:15] was a man of incredible passion, loved the game, loved to win, [01:26:20] but just played with such panache. And I think I would just love [01:26:25] to hear his stories. Um, the other person that I’d really [01:26:30] like to have around the dinner table, um, is a violinist. I said, I play [01:26:35] the violin, there’s a, there’s a violinist, um, professional violinist called Itzhak [01:26:40] Perlman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Who is who had polio as a child, but overcome [01:26:45] that to become one of the world’s greatest violinists. Yeah, apparently a very funny guy [01:26:50] as well. But I’ve seen him play and it’s just like he [01:26:55] is.

Payman Langroudi: He’s not alive anymore.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. He’s alive. He’s 80. Um, I don’t know if he performs anymore, [01:27:00] but I’ve had the pleasure of seeing him at the Festival Hall many, many years ago, and [01:27:05] he was just incredible. Made it look so easy, but just so [01:27:10] almost whimsical in the way that he approached things. But such a light touch, [01:27:15] but so beautiful to listen to. And I love to hear his experiences. And [01:27:20] my third one would be quite an interesting one for me. There’s [01:27:25] one book that I’ve read that I think has been incredibly profound in [01:27:30] its approach, but has really made me think about my life. And that’s called Man’s Search for Meaning [01:27:35] by a book called Viktor Frankl.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good book.

Neil Sikka: Um, and he.

Payman Langroudi: I only read that last [01:27:40] year for the first time.

Neil Sikka: And.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. Loved it.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s incredible. And again, I, [01:27:45] you know, we talked about lecturers that simplify things and make things easy for you to understand. He [01:27:50] has these moments and he says these things like, you know, between stimulus and [01:27:55] response, there’s a space. And in that space is your, your growth and [01:28:00] your freedom because it’s up to you how you respond. Simple, but just like perfect. [01:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: So I’d heard that from Stephen Covey, but obviously he’d [01:28:10] heard it from from there. So I thought it was the Stephen Covey original [01:28:15] thought until I read I read it last year. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was a Holocaust survivor. And this whole [01:28:20] story is incredible, beautiful, beautiful book. So I’d have those three. And I think it’d [01:28:25] be really interesting to see Viktor as the psychiatrist analysing Seve. [01:28:30]

Payman Langroudi: True.

Neil Sikka: True. So yeah, and we probably have a [01:28:35] few laughs as well. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, final final question. Um, It’s a deathbed. [01:28:40]

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed. [01:28:45]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’ve got to say, if I think if I got to my deathbed and I was giving them advice, it’d [01:28:50] probably be a bit late. I’d probably like. I’m always imparting advice [01:28:55] to my kids.

Payman Langroudi: A week before your deathbed.

Neil Sikka: Well, funny enough, somebody once said to me, [01:29:00] um, about, um, you know, we were talking about something called intention. [01:29:05] And I said, what does intention mean? He said, intention is your emotional [01:29:10] legacy. I said, what does that mean? He says it’s imagine yourself towards [01:29:15] the end of your life. You’re sitting on your veranda with a blanket over you, looking [01:29:20] at the sunset, thinking about how you would like to be remembered. That [01:29:25] is your emotional legacy, and you should hold that with you throughout [01:29:30] your life so that that influences the things that you do so that when you look back, [01:29:35] you can look back with pride And you can look back with comfort and. [01:29:40] So that would be one piece of advice. The other thing that I, I say to my [01:29:45] kids all the time is a simple thing. It’s, it’s like, [01:29:50] you know, when they say, talk about exams and A-levels and results and [01:29:55] this I said, you know, what’s most important thing? I said, I was not the most academic person, but I said, [01:30:00] if you get on with people, you’ll get on in life. And [01:30:05] if people like you, you don’t have to be the cleverest in the room. You just have to be someone that can [01:30:10] people can equate with. So that would be my probably my other piece [01:30:15] of advice.

Payman Langroudi: What about a piece of advice? Like, I mean, this the one [01:30:20] that you’ve given a kind of, sort of I found these worked for me kind of advice. What about stuff [01:30:25] that you wish you’d you were more classically. [01:30:30] I wish I’d gone to the gym more. So you should go or I wish I was less risk averse or [01:30:35] something like that. What if it was a piece of advice like that?

Neil Sikka: I [01:30:40] wish. Okay. I think that, um. [01:30:45] What we don’t realise is that when you’re younger, you think that [01:30:50] opportunities are going to occur, present themselves [01:30:55] to you that will transform your life. And actually, there are very few. [01:31:00] And I think I would if I was looking back, I think I wish I’d grasped [01:31:05] more of those opportunities when they came. So when you think something [01:31:10] sounds like something that you really need to grab hold of, do it. Do not [01:31:15] think that something else better will come up.

Payman Langroudi: You can give me an example of [01:31:20] or not. Like what was the opportunity that you didn’t? [01:31:25]

Neil Sikka: Well, I didn’t I probably wasn’t brave enough with my business. I could [01:31:30] have probably.

Payman Langroudi: You did. Okay. But are you.

Neil Sikka: Saying I could have done a lot more if [01:31:35] I thought, you know, I could have bought an insurance company.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I could have really [01:31:40] grown that business enormously because I had all the tools to be able to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You were in [01:31:45] the right sort of intersection. Right.

Neil Sikka: And there was no one else. Okay, who was doing it. But yeah, nobody else [01:31:50] was in that market at all. Interesting. And I could have stolen a march on everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting, [01:31:55] interesting.

Neil Sikka: But I wasn’t brave enough. You keep saying I’m a risk taker, I wasn’t. I’ve [01:32:00] seen people far more risk than me. I was I was I think I was quite cautious [01:32:05] really.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Thank you so much for doing this.

Neil Sikka: Thank you so much. Thank [01:32:10] you. It’s a pleasure.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in [01:32:15] for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:32:20] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber [01:32:30] driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

[VOICE]: Please welcome to the stage Head of General Dentistry, Bupa Dental [00:00:05] Care Doctor Annie Seabourne.

Annie Seabourne: Hello. Good afternoon everybody. [00:00:10] How are we all feeling? Some tired faces. But to be fair, I think people [00:00:15] have looked a lot more fresh than I thought they would be. Considering what I saw on the dance floor [00:00:20] last night. Um, two jam packed days. And [00:00:25] it has been honestly incredible. Last year, some of the feedback we got is that people [00:00:30] wanted more CPD, and what I can say is the team have knocked it out [00:00:35] the park this time, and I want to have a round of applause. Special [00:00:40] acknowledgement to Holly Harker and Nisha Patel and their amazing [00:00:45] respective teams and all the amazing speakers. So I hope you’ve had a wonderful [00:00:50] morning. We are at the end though. This is our last session [00:00:55] of the two days, and we’ve got something a little bit exciting, a little bit different. [00:01:00] And that is a live podcast recording. And it is the Dental Leaders [00:01:05] podcast, which is if you haven’t listened to it, it’s phenomenal. There’s hundreds of episodes to go back and [00:01:10] listen on your drives back. And it’s hosted by the formidable Payman [00:01:15] Langroudi, who is the clinical director and the co-founder [00:01:20] of Enlightened Smiles. And today we’ve got an amazing guest, Andrew [00:01:25] Bower, who is the product category lead globally [00:01:30] of Philips Oral healthcare. So I’m aware that the hangover [00:01:35] might be hitting, or you might be having a bit of a sugar kind of come down from all [00:01:40] the sweets and treats at lunchtime. Um, but the good news [00:01:45] is this will be recorded so you can always watch it back. However, the conversation is going [00:01:50] to be phenomenal. Um, and they’re going to discuss what dentistry is going [00:01:55] to be like in 2040 and beyond. So a warm welcome to Payman [00:02:00] and Andrew.

[VOICE]: Well. [00:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: This is a bit different to my normal podcast room, which some of [00:02:10] you have been in and several of you have been on my podcast. Massive pleasure to have you, Andrew. [00:02:15] Um, we’re looking at 2040 and although [00:02:20] that sounds like a long way away, it’s only 15 years at the same time, [00:02:25] it might be the first time in history where we don’t know what the world is going to be like [00:02:30] in two years time with AI and robotics, everything that’s [00:02:35] coming down the line. And really, um, my first question to [00:02:40] you is how far ahead do you guys think? Mm.

Andrew Bower: Fair [00:02:45] question. Um, we try and keep a ten year horizon [00:02:50] when we’re looking forward. Um, and maybe start kind of from a Philips enterprise perspective, [00:02:55] right. We’re in the in the business of improving lives. That’s our mission. 2.5 [00:03:00] billion lives is what we want to improve. And we bridge that between consumer health and medical health. And [00:03:05] so we’re always looking at the ten year horizon about what’s going to be [00:03:10] inflection points and what’s going to improve health outcomes. And I think for [00:03:15] us, it’s really a truly exciting time to be in health care, if [00:03:20] you like, as a whole, because I think the advancements in technology, it’s a somewhat industrial revolution we’re going [00:03:25] through at the moment, and the advancements in technology are accelerating unprecedented [00:03:30] speed. Where will that take us? Your guess is as good as mine, but [00:03:35] I think what it will do, it will hopefully lead to for [00:03:40] clinicians giving them more time to focus on patient care. And I think for [00:03:45] consumers, and I’m afraid that’s what we use in Philips, a lot of times consumers rather than people, but consumers, [00:03:50] is going to lead to more personalised care and more preventative care. And that’s [00:03:55] going to come through a wealth of technology, of sensors on driving behavioural change to [00:04:00] ensure that those who need critical care are going to get it quicker.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:05] did you you’ve been with the business 20 odd years now.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember predictions [00:04:10] you made 15 years ago? How right do they come?

Andrew Bower: It’s [00:04:15] funny because I think if we were back 15 years ago or even ten years ago, we [00:04:20] were talking about the IoT of things, the Internet of things and connectivity. And I think [00:04:25] that’s everywhere we touch now. Right. And that was the first step towards machine learning and AI. And [00:04:30] I think, um, a lot of the promises have come true. You [00:04:35] know, if you think of how many of us are here wearing a wearable, a smart watch or something that’s given us data and insights [00:04:40] all stemmed from that IoT. And I joke, and I look back [00:04:45] and I think if you were sat here in 1950, we’d be talking about should we use plastic? Yes. [00:04:50] The world is going to change. Of course we’re going to use UI. You’re going to leverage big data, [00:04:55] and it’s going to enhance the quality of care that we can provide.

Payman Langroudi: So look, we sell [00:05:00] toothpaste for £12 and everyone Gasps £12 for toothpaste. [00:05:05] Yeah. And then right right next door to your teeth is your lips and skin. [00:05:10] And people buy £100 screen you know creams for their skin. Yeah. Do [00:05:15] you having come from all the different categories in Philips consumer that you’ve been in, do [00:05:20] you see that oral care has sort of a lower [00:05:25] priority for people? And are you doing something to sort of what do you think [00:05:30] that oral care will take a higher priority for people going forward?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think look, [00:05:35] oral healthcare at the minute for consumers is a daily chore. Yeah, two minutes a day. We want [00:05:40] to turn it into a daily ritual because if you can turn into that daily ritual, you’re investing [00:05:45] in yourself, investing, giving yourself confidence, right? You’re in the whitening business, so am I. You know, and [00:05:50] that’s part of it. But it’s about actually, how am I investing my time in myself and that [00:05:55] care routine to take better care of myself? I think the beauty industry is a fabulous example, [00:06:00] right? How many people have a beauty routine, a cleansing of their skin routine at the end of the day? What’s [00:06:05] an extra two minutes in that routine to actually have a sensorial experience that makes you feel fresh and [00:06:10] good about yourself, and actually knowing that you’re doing something to protect your longevity. [00:06:15] Look after your oral health and ultimately full body health. So I think [00:06:20] the job of the industry and industrial partners like us is to break the apathy, [00:06:25] right? Break the apathy around oral health, that it’s absolutely [00:06:30] integral for your health today and tomorrow. And it’s actually really easy [00:06:35] to take care of, you know, and we’re on this crusade [00:06:40] to try and break that apathy. You know, let me give you some examples. Um, globally, [00:06:45] 30% of people are only using a power toothbrush. So 70, 70, [00:06:50] 70% of people are still using manuals.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the number in the UK? Do you know?

Andrew Bower: Yeah. 52. [00:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: 52%.

Andrew Bower: 52% in the UK. Second most penetrated market after the Netherlands. [00:07:00] Really? It is. But it also shows where we are on a journey of oral health. [00:07:05] Because actually I always joke it’s kind of like the New Year’s habit. You could always keep your teeth [00:07:10] twice a day with a power toothbrush. People don’t because this is apathy, because they don’t understand the importance of it. [00:07:15] So I think, you know, the power of data and AI, and we see this with our connected apps, people [00:07:20] who use our connected app brush for longer. It leads to more, more retention [00:07:25] and a more complete, a more complete clean. And we have the data to support it, but it’s [00:07:30] people taking that, um, shall we say, active investment in their health. [00:07:35] And when they realise oral health like we heard yesterday from Ian Chappell. Right. Oral health [00:07:40] is so important. I hope we’re going to break the apathy and people are going to invest more time, more [00:07:45] effort and maybe the £60 they need to spend on that versus, I [00:07:50] don’t know, an a G one supplement or a whatever else it is they do for, for, for [00:07:55] well-being.

Payman Langroudi: As a business. How do you guys think about insurgents? Because [00:08:00] the barrier to entry of an electric toothbrush is quite low.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. I think we need [00:08:05] to be really careful here. We are seeing insurgents across the world. So as you know, in the intro, um, [00:08:10] I have global responsibility and I spend a lot of time in Asia and I see a lot of incumbents [00:08:15] coming in, a lot of Chinese tech coming through in the category. And [00:08:20] it’s fascinating, right? Because you go to China and I’m seeing robotics and I see AI, and I think the advancements of [00:08:25] technology and the speed in which it’s coming is phenomenal. Yeah. And I see incumbents in the market, [00:08:30] like, um, if you want, you smile, right. Local Chinese [00:08:35] brand, American founders flying in China full of tech. You [00:08:40] know, I didn’t know that I needed a talking toothbrush, but it probably talks to me now. It’s got light [00:08:45] colours interaction on it, but it’s not delivering the clinical efficacy that [00:08:50] it needs to do. And actually, I think some of the incumbents coming to the market are forgetting [00:08:55] that actually this is a clinical product that has to do a clinical job and deliver the care [00:09:00] that is required when you, the clinician, can’t be there. That’s what we need to do. [00:09:05] And so it also acts as a massive threat, if I’m honest with you, to the [00:09:10] industry. Um, and a perfect example of this is in Japan, right? Um, [00:09:15] or power toothbrush penetration in Japan is 24%, but [00:09:20] a huge category objectives for people going into the category, buying one and then trading out because the product [00:09:25] doesn’t deliver any benefit.

Andrew Bower: So it doesn’t deliver the clinical benefit. It doesn’t have the clinical experience. [00:09:30] So people just think, yeah, this is rubbish. And then bin it and go back to the manual brushing. What [00:09:35] they haven’t done is brought into the category, the clinically proven product that has got the evidence behind it, [00:09:40] which is going to actually remove the plaque that it says it’s going to do and help you remove the plaque where you [00:09:45] need to. And this is a big challenge because the more we see this, we’re going to see more category rejectors and [00:09:50] therefore people not believing in the benefit of power over manual and [00:09:55] with with. Power being still, you [00:10:00] know, still at 30%. So Underpenetrated, you know, we have a job to do to ensure [00:10:05] that people trade into the category at the right level and ensure that they learn how to use the device [00:10:10] properly, ensuring that it delivers a clinical efficacy for [00:10:15] what you want to achieve. And that’s why, you know, my role globally is to drive relationships with dental [00:10:20] professionals to ensure that they understand our story and actually understand how it can help them in the care they’re providing [00:10:25] to their patients. But it is a huge risk.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the biggest difference between British dentists [00:10:30] and other dentists? I mean, what, what, what comes to mind? Because, [00:10:35] you know, you obviously you guys are connecting to dentists all over the world.

Andrew Bower: I think [00:10:40] let me start with the consumer. Come to the dentist. Right? If I think about the consumer, the individual reactive. [00:10:45] Reactive versus preventive is [00:10:50] the key is the key distinction across the globe. I think we actually have a very, [00:10:55] very mature oral health system in the UK. When I compare it to many, many other regions, [00:11:00] we go regularly, we go for Check-ups, we go for prevention. I go to China, you [00:11:05] go when you’ve got a pain and where do you go? You go to the public hospital and they deal with it. [00:11:10] So I think the attitude of [00:11:15] people and consumers differs tremendously, therefore has a knock on effect to the [00:11:20] to the clinical side of things. Um, and many [00:11:25] are about fixing a problem. Get in, get out, fix the problem. It’s not necessarily about [00:11:30] patient care. I think what you see in the UK is far more patient care orientated kind [00:11:35] of system that supports people when they’re in the practice, but also when they’re at [00:11:40] home and helping them on their patient plans. Whereas in many parts of the world that still doesn’t exist. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So where where would you rank the UK? Near the top?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, near the top. I think UK [00:11:50] is pretty high. The US is pretty high. We’ve got we’ve got the discrepancy, [00:11:55] you know, and societal gaps in the US that we have to challenge. And how do we make sure people get access [00:12:00] to care. We don’t have that as much in the UK. Um but it’s certainly up there. And I [00:12:05] think what we’re seeing is that pushing the boundaries of dentistry, I think, [00:12:10] you know, what I was doing, for example, around systemic health is really pioneering. And [00:12:15] I think it’s really interesting to see where that will take us.

Payman Langroudi: So that question, what we saw with Prof [00:12:20] Chappell yesterday, the question of the mouth body connection does do you guys [00:12:25] spend time on that?

Andrew Bower: We’re obviously monitoring it [00:12:30] very closely. Right. Um, and I think there’s increasingly evidence across the globe. [00:12:35] And professor, Professor Chapman obviously is the oracle of this. And you know, we speak to many, many key opinion leaders [00:12:40] across the globe on this topic. The evidence is becoming stronger and stronger. The question [00:12:45] is, what do you do with that? Right. So if you get an early sign of diabetes, for example, [00:12:50] what do you do? Go and do with that. And where do you go. And does that need to be at the consumer’s home [00:12:55] or can it be in in the practice? So there’s a real discussion about where that should take place. [00:13:00] And then how do you integrate that into the ultimately care pathway that bridges both [00:13:05] your general practice and your, and your clinical and your, your dentistry? So [00:13:10] I think we believe in it. I think, I think what it does for us [00:13:15] comes back to that apathy point. I hope it also brings greater awareness to oral oral [00:13:20] health and that we all need to invest more time in it. So I see it also [00:13:25] as a great catalyst for consumers to be more engaged, [00:13:30] and I hope that it has that effect. And then from a clinical care pathway perspective, [00:13:35] I’m really excited to see how that comes together. Right? You know, blood tests and dental practices, etc., etc., [00:13:40] how it comes together. But from a consumer, I hope it wakes people up.

Payman Langroudi: So you reckon by by [00:13:45] 2040, your daily brushing routine will give [00:13:50] you diagnostics because of saliva testing through the brush, something like that. I mean, [00:13:55] what can you tell us?

Andrew Bower: I’m not going to go too far. It could potentially. Um, [00:14:00] but I think there’s a real question like I say, where that takes place. Is it, is it, is it useful to you to get a diagnostic [00:14:05] on a Monday morning at 630 on your way to the office? No, wait a minute. Something’s changed since yesterday. [00:14:10] And what’s the urgency of that versus what’s the role that will play in [00:14:15] the clinical setting? You know, so I think let’s think about, you know, algorithmic hygiene. Hygiene [00:14:20] is twice a year, maybe three times. And I have half an hour with them. What a great opportunity [00:14:25] for primary health, you know, both physical and mental and have them have that check [00:14:30] up. Do I need that on a daily basis? I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But are you not working on like maybe an [00:14:35] oral version of those bands that people wear? Surely. I mean, if [00:14:40] there was going to be some sort of diagnostic information that you can [00:14:45] get from the mouth.

Andrew Bower: I think there will be diagnostic information from the mouth that you can get. Absolutely. [00:14:50] I think you look at saliva, you look at gas, etc.. I’m excited to see where the industry takes it, but I think one thing’s measuring [00:14:55] it. The other thing is turning it into actionable insights. You know, I think we’ve seen from we’ll go back [00:15:00] to the IoT discussion about raising data. Data gives you visibility. [00:15:05] Visibility drives action. So actually what we’re doing here is trying to create the invisible [00:15:10] visible for people. Right? And if that can happen, then we can drive behavioural change. [00:15:15] And I think that you’ve got to have that motivational driver to drive that behavioural [00:15:20] change. And that’s where data continues to be a positive reassurance to do that. [00:15:25] Um, do I foresee in mouth monitoring potentially. Um, again, [00:15:30] I think we’ve got to be very clear where that should take place and where it shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] you were a betting man, how long will it be before dentists [00:15:40] are replaced by robots?

Andrew Bower: I don’t think they ever will be. I don’t think they ever will be. [00:15:45] I think I don’t think they will be. I think I’ll tell you why. Because it’s actually about care. People [00:15:50] care what I think robotics AI technology will do [00:15:55] will give clinicians more time, more time to be with their patients, to understand them. [00:16:00] And I think the role of dentists will broaden to be more holistic health [00:16:05] than just necessarily just looking at teeth perspective, maybe total oral health. [00:16:10] But I don’t think it will be replaced by robotics. I think robotics will enhance the workflow. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So a bit like, you know, like Waymo, a self-driving car.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:16:20] still a driver. There’s one driver driving 60 cars. Maybe that.

Andrew Bower: Maybe, [00:16:25] maybe, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: One dentist treating 60 patients.

Andrew Bower: You know, we’re human beings and we want care [00:16:30] and we want a human interaction for that care. I think technology will enhance the care [00:16:35] we get won’t replace it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I mean, for instance, it doesn’t [00:16:40] have to be a dentist. It could be a TCO, a human, certainly. [00:16:45]

Andrew Bower: Potentially. Potentially. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve worked [00:16:50] across other categories. What are examples that, you know, Philips categories, things [00:16:55] that you guys have achieved that now you’re bringing over to oral care, like which other category would you [00:17:00] spent the most time?

Andrew Bower: I spent a lot of time in women’s health and I spent a lot of time in, uh, what [00:17:05] we call our mother and child care account, uh, supporting, uh, people, [00:17:10] having families. There’s two aspects to this. There’s a commercial aspect, and there’s kind [00:17:15] of the behavioural, the lifestyle aspect, right? I think one thing we’ve done, we built [00:17:20] the world’s leading pregnancy app. You know, we have 7 million pregnant women on it every day looking [00:17:25] for guidance and education. And what we’ve done there is to really build clinical [00:17:30] insight into a communication style that’s really easily understandable. [00:17:35] So we talked about the reading age of a 7 or 8 year old, and it makes it highly digestible for [00:17:40] everybody. And actually, who we want to get that education to is probably the underserved community, [00:17:45] the people who aren’t as well educated. And so it’s been a hugely successful to [00:17:50] demonstrate better education, which then leads to better care, right? And it’s obvious for well-educated [00:17:55] people. But if you talk to well, it was in those days, NHS England and we’re saying, how do [00:18:00] you get people to stop smoking when they’re pregnant in Liverpool? It’s a very specific target audience that you’re targeting. [00:18:05] And so I think access to education and [00:18:10] care is something that we’ve really doubled down on, and ensuring that products become [00:18:15] more personalised to your to your needs across the board.

Andrew Bower: So childcare, [00:18:20] we did an awful lot of research on flex for babies and drinking and [00:18:25] understanding that process. So I think it’s kind of education adoption is to products [00:18:30] and then making it more accessible. So yesterday we spoke briefly [00:18:35] and we’re talking about the Affordable Care Act in North America, which Obama brought in. Right. [00:18:40] And he very clearly said every new mother should have entitled to a breast, a breast [00:18:45] pump, because breast milk is the most important thing you can give to your baby and put the insurance codes [00:18:50] in place to enable that to happen. Right. I would love us to have a dialogue about how do [00:18:55] you unlock insurance codes on a national level to oral care. So it’s not the expense [00:19:00] that’s coming out of your individual pocket, but it’s something that’s supported by legislation [00:19:05] to make it more accessible. And I think it’s that change in [00:19:10] the narrative and the dialogue that we need to have to make oral health care more accessible. Bringing this conversation [00:19:15] to ensure people get the best care every day.

Payman Langroudi: So in your [00:19:20] time, you’ve worked at other companies or has your whole career been.

Andrew Bower: No, no, I have worked at other companies. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: But what, 20 years at Philips?

Andrew Bower: I’ve been 20 years at Philips. I started here in the UK, I’ve worked in Asia, I’ve worked in the Netherlands. [00:19:30] I’ve been around the world. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How important is oral care to Philips? Like what? [00:19:35] What percentage of its business is it?

Andrew Bower: It’s a it’s a. So if you think about [00:19:40] Philips, we have health systems on a personal health business. Our personal health business is significantly important for us. Um, [00:19:45] I’m sure you can Google our, our financial projections. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean financially, but do you see that as the growth part.

Andrew Bower: It’s a great growth path. [00:19:55] Like we talk about consumers. We want to serve people. We want to help. Right. [00:20:00] Our ambition is to serve over 250 million people every day with [00:20:05] better oral health care. And how do we do that? Primarily with power toothbrushes. We also [00:20:10] do a lot of interdental care, and we also do whitening solutions. But ultimately, it’s critically [00:20:15] important because it links back to that systemic health story, right? Which [00:20:20] which we also actively invested on an enterprise level in a, in a health system, in [00:20:25] a hospital environment. Um, and so why [00:20:30] we have a consumer division in. Phillips is about prevention [00:20:35] and driving behavioural change for better health outcomes. So the businesses [00:20:40] that we have and we’ve kept hold of are still wholly focussed on that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:20:45] how do you guys think about research? Do you outsource research and do [00:20:50] it in-house, or do you do it all in-house?

Andrew Bower: We we do a lot in-house. [00:20:55] We have a huge we have a great advanced development team, but we also work with a lot of clinical partners. [00:21:00] You know, um, for us, it’s absolutely critical that we have leading [00:21:05] opinions and cutting edge research from across the globe. You know, [00:21:10] um, Professor Chapel’s a great friend of ours, but we also have friends in every corner of the world. [00:21:15] And it’s really important for us to understand what’s happening in different corners of the world from [00:21:20] a research, um, but also from a beliefs perspective, right. And that [00:21:25] that informs us on our innovation process. The voice of the [00:21:30] clinician is absolutely critical in everything we do. So we’ll have them around the table [00:21:35] at our earliest concept stage of ideas, and we’ll go all the way through to clinical validation with [00:21:40] them to help us ensure that we deliver products that deliver what they should do on the [00:21:45] tin.

Payman Langroudi: But you told me that you’ve got research centres across the globe. What three?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, [00:21:50] we’ve got 3 or 4. Yeah, we’ve got four.

Payman Langroudi: And they work across categories.

Andrew Bower: No. These are all dedicated to oral [00:21:55] health care.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Three just for oral care. So do they work in conjunction with each other? [00:22:00]

Andrew Bower: Absolutely. And we have experts specialist expertise in different ones for different topics. [00:22:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what would you say is the biggest breakthrough for ellipses has come out with Philips. [00:22:10]

Andrew Bower: I’ll talk about oral health in this context rather than Philips. I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. I mean [00:22:15] in oral health.

Andrew Bower: In oral health, I think the big steps that change that we’re doing, have done, and you can see it now [00:22:20] is the connectivity that we brought to toothbrushes. Why was that so important? [00:22:25] We did it for kids and we did it for adults. For kids. We have [00:22:30] a character, sparkly, etc. who brushes your teeth with you, educates you, [00:22:35] and drives adherence to brushing two minutes a day.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on an.

Andrew Bower: App. It’s on an app.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Really, [00:22:40] really important. And we see child adoption to brushing significantly [00:22:45] increasing. Sparkly. Goes to bed, goes on holiday. Sparkly cleans your teeth. The whole narrative [00:22:50] around it. And then we put connectivity into into adult toothbrushes. And we saw adherence again [00:22:55] to brushing significantly step up. You know, I think it’s I think it’s 80% of people [00:23:00] in the app brush for two minutes, twice a day, which doesn’t sound much, but most people just brush for 60s. [00:23:05] Right? And so it’s an example of behavioural change [00:23:10] and that connectivity allowing you to do that. It also teaches you where the brush is and how [00:23:15] to brush in the mouth. You can see where it is on the app, etc., etc.. Which again are you covering blind spots, [00:23:20] are you not? So I think what we’re trying to do is continuously bring innovation [00:23:25] that drives personalised care. It helps you understand where you’ve got [00:23:30] spots that you need to clean, where you should clean a bit more, where you should invest more time, and that will help [00:23:35] ultimately drive better outcomes.

Payman Langroudi: Does that connect to the dentist as well?

Andrew Bower: No, not at this stage. [00:23:40] We have looked at it, we’ve looked at it, we’ve looked at connecting to the dentist. What are we going to be careful? [00:23:45] And this is also from my previous roles because you get into the telehealth discussion and remote patient [00:23:50] monitoring. We don’t want to add burden to the care pathway of the clinician. [00:23:55] We want to help them effectively. And in dentistry, [00:24:00] and we’re certainly in developed markets, we’re proactively going, um, we’re [00:24:05] not. Maybe it is a specific case you want to keep an eye on, but we haven’t seen the pull [00:24:10] from the clinical world to actually have that at the minute from [00:24:15] a, from a teledentistry perspective. And there’s many, many players out there, as you know, who have explored [00:24:20] it, but none have driven to mass adoption. So for us, we very much focus on that [00:24:25] personalisation.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say there’s even mass adoption of the app?

Andrew Bower: I think, um. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: I expect most people just take the brush out and brush with it.

Andrew Bower: No, they do, they do. I think so. [00:24:35] It’s obviously a certain demographic. You want it and it’s a higher demographic who are using it. And I think the adoption [00:24:40] rates, I’ll be speculating, it’s 5,060% of [00:24:45] the app and continued usage up to a year. So it’s, you know, we are seeing people engaging. [00:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: How do you guys look at positioning? Because I don’t know, correct [00:24:55] me if I’m wrong. I think Philip’s stuff is positioned sort of at the top of the market. So [00:25:00] do you ever there must be someone somewhere always telling you, why don’t you bring out a cheaper [00:25:05] toothbrush?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think if you think about our mission as a Sonicare, it [00:25:10] might sound a bit. We want to democratise oral health. What do we mean by that? We want to [00:25:15] show that every person has access to a quality product that delivers clinical [00:25:20] efficacy and does a deep clean, and we believe we can offer that. We are positioned. [00:25:25] We do have a premium brand positioning. However, you know, we have price points [00:25:30] from £30 all the way through which deliver clinical outcomes. So [00:25:35] there is this narrative that we are too expensive. But actually we [00:25:40] spent the last couple of years revamping our entry portfolio, our portfolio to make [00:25:45] it more accessible because we know it has to be to appeal to more people. And we need to break that [00:25:50] apathy again of getting into people’s hands.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, part of it is the premium positioning [00:25:55] as well, right?

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be all things to all people.

Andrew Bower: You can’t. But I think you [00:26:00] can drive an object of desire. Right. And that’s what we talk about where you do create an object of desire. We think we do anyway. [00:26:05] And it seems to test pretty well with consumers. So we want to be an aspiration, but we want people [00:26:10] to be able to have accessibility to it. We’re not in a market of just serving [00:26:15] the premium consumer. You know, we’re in a market of democratising oral [00:26:20] health for everybody, and that makes it we’ve got to make it accessible for everybody, and that sits on our shoulders to make [00:26:25] sure we can do that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to get more onto your personal [00:26:30] journey of how how did you get to this point? Why did you move to oral care? Or did [00:26:35] they move you to oral care? How does it work?

Andrew Bower: How does it work? No, I did [00:26:40] a similar role for, like I said, Women’s Health Division before I [00:26:45] took this role. And what attracted me to oral [00:26:50] health is, is the systemic health link. You know, the bigger health implications, [00:26:55] you know, that it could play. And they asked me if I was generally interested in taking this opportunity [00:27:00] and also looking at how we change the relationship that we drive with clinicians across the globe, which [00:27:05] I think is a really nice challenge to look at because the motivational [00:27:10] drivers of them is tremendously different depending where I look. You know, I speak [00:27:15] to dentists and where they exist, hygienists, because that’s not everywhere wherever [00:27:20] I go. And it’s really interesting to learn their preconceptions now. So [00:27:25] I’m in a I’m in a dental office in China and I’m talking to the dentist. And the first question I ask them, are [00:27:30] you using a Sonicare? Now I use a manual. Why? Because I can do good. I can do a good enough job. [00:27:35] Okay. What about the literature? Mhm. So there’s some grassroots [00:27:40] education also within the industry that we need to break, break [00:27:45] through to, to. To get them to support [00:27:50] our mission effectively. Um, and yeah, so why [00:27:55] I took that role was actually because I think the challenge is fantastic. And there’s a great opportunity [00:28:00] and there’s such an underserved population out there that we can do something, something about. And that’s [00:28:05] what I get excited about.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you what’s been the darkest day [00:28:10] on your journey.

Andrew Bower: Professionally or personally?

Payman Langroudi: Professionally?

Andrew Bower: Look, [00:28:15] I think professionally in the world that I’m in.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it’s mixed, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:28:20]

Andrew Bower: It is, it is. And I’ll be honest with you, one leads to another. You know, if you get it wrong professionally, [00:28:25] it does have a personal impact on you. Um, darkest [00:28:30] time of my journey is when I’ve launched, I went, I launched the world’s first medical grade [00:28:35] parenting app, parenting, parenting app. So I wanted to drive data [00:28:40] on newborn children to help parents have a voice. And it didn’t [00:28:45] resonate as much as we thought it would. And that’s a bit upsetting, right?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been, I’ve been [00:28:50] there.

Andrew Bower: It’s like you’re a corporate venturing, as you say, and it was a corporate venture and I was leading this corporate venture [00:28:55] and it didn’t resonate. And then you had to pull the plug and you’re like, there’s a tough love [00:29:00] that, you know, the element of actually accepting. We can’t afford to keep investing in [00:29:05] this. It’s a good idea. Are we too soon? The best answer is it’s too soon. Because then you [00:29:10] can say, oh, we’ll come back to it later. But no, but actually the market has to be right. And [00:29:15] if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not, if you’re not failing, you’re not trying.

Andrew Bower: You’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Learning, you’re not, you’re not trying enough stuff. But [00:29:20] I think in corporate, sometimes everyone’s trying to sort of protect their own job. And so [00:29:25] trying stuff is quite hard.

Andrew Bower: I think, um, being I like the term [00:29:30] entrepreneurial, you know, you need people who are speedboats in oil tankers to try and drive change. [00:29:35] Um, and that’s what we try and do to try and get ahead of the curve. And that takes [00:29:40] a healthy aspect of, um, risk, but [00:29:45] calculated risk about what are the parameters you’re going [00:29:50] to work with and what not. And being very honest about when it’s working and when it’s not and when you’re going [00:29:55] to pass the scale. Right. Um, I was running a venture in India before I took this [00:30:00] role, which was really supporting women with PCOS. And [00:30:05] the goal there was. We suddenly realised the whole [00:30:10] glue to the proposition was actually about personal connection and actually [00:30:15] building a community of people who are suffering the same condition. And yes, we’re offering we’re offering nutrition [00:30:20] plans, lifestyle coaching, yoga classes. We do a whole behaviour [00:30:25] change and we actually realise it’s about human connection. So how do we how can we dial that up to help people? [00:30:30] Um, so yeah, it’s um, but that’s healthy experiment and [00:30:35] allowing the space to test that and protecting teams to do it. And I think that’s the art [00:30:40] in corporates about how do you protect a team to try something. Yeah. And then if it works, [00:30:45] how does it scale?

Payman Langroudi: Certainly some some some corporates manage. Right. [00:30:50] They do.

Andrew Bower: They do. And you know many corporates are successful in this. But you’ve got to get that balance right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:30:55]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about the opposite. What comes to mind if I say what was the best day.

Andrew Bower: The best day. Oh [00:31:00] many, many good days. I think on the opposite side, you launch a product or service that’s [00:31:05] certainly has huge market reaction. And people, it generally improves their day to day [00:31:10] experience, their great days. And then it’s actually really nice then to do that time and [00:31:15] spend the time with the consumer and the customer having dialogues, talking about it. What’s working? What [00:31:20] can you enhance, what you can improve? But people are generally excited to help you. So the best days are when people [00:31:25] are kind of on the idea, the building and co-creating with you.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:30] specifically one of these apps.

Andrew Bower: Apps or one of the devices [00:31:35] or services that we bring. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if I ask you, what’s your biggest mistake that you’ve made [00:31:40] in your career?

Andrew Bower: Mm. Biggest mistake. Um [00:31:45] biggest mistake. It’s [00:31:50] a hard one. I think I’ve launched I’ve [00:31:55] launched things that weren’t ready. And what I mean by that, I’ve put a product out there that I wasn’t happy with [00:32:00] or a service that I wasn’t happy with. And deep down, I probably knew it. And [00:32:05] there was an element you’ve got to listen to your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: And you’ve got to listen to that gut and act on that gut. And [00:32:10] if you don’t, there’s something, there’s something wrong. So I think as you as you continue in your career, I [00:32:15] think the voice of the voice of your gut becomes a bit stronger with your experiences, and you shouldn’t ignore it because [00:32:20] it actually tells you an awful lot about is this good or is it bad?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] you don’t want to go into exactly what it was.

Andrew Bower: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: You want to go into exactly what it was? That’s [00:32:30] a no no. We [00:32:35] could all take it. Okay. Now going forwards. [00:32:40]

Andrew Bower: 2040 back to 2040.

Payman Langroudi: Back to 2040.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you [00:32:45] told me there’s many things you guys are thinking. There’s some things you can’t talk about.

Andrew Bower: Exactly. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: What can you talk about?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think we can talk about I think we can the key consumer [00:32:55] trends. And we’re going to see consumer clinical trends, right? There’s no doubt we’re [00:33:00] seeing from a consumer perspective that there’s different motivational drivers towards oral care, [00:33:05] right? There’s the element of I just want to clean my teeth, get on with it. Element [00:33:10] of I want a healthy body. There’s an element of I want to look beautiful. And [00:33:15] so you’ve seen different motivational drivers, and I think you see the industry shifting a little bit towards that, you know, [00:33:20] self-confidence, mental health all plays a role and also connects to the oral [00:33:25] health experience. And what we offer, you know, you’re, you’re in a world of whitening as [00:33:30] well. You know, you whiten your teeth, you look after them, but you’ve got to have strong foundations to be able to whiten them. [00:33:35] Right. And I think we’re going to see, and things like that really [00:33:40] drive active interest in it. So I think what we’re going to see, certainly from consumer [00:33:45] side, different different motivational drivers and people and therefore people investing in oral health for different [00:33:50] reasons. We talk a lot about systemic health.

Andrew Bower: Some people don’t care about that if we’re honest about it. Some of [00:33:55] us just want good white teeth to look beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And so I think the motivational drivers [00:34:00] are different. And I think it’s really important that we recognise that because we’re ultimately driving the [00:34:05] same outcome, health benefits. But the path to it is different. [00:34:10] I think then, like I said, from the initial perspective, we can see great [00:34:15] integration. I think we’re going to see far more better integration. I think, you know, total [00:34:20] health health, health clinics is going to continue to explode. [00:34:25] I expect we’re already seeing it here, right? We’re going to see it [00:34:30] in the US. And I think we’re going to see far more patient record integration. [00:34:35] You know, if you think about things like epic are doing in the US and really trying to connect the data or enabling us to connect [00:34:40] the data points, that’s going to see a profound shift in the system. And [00:34:45] I’m excited to see where that goes because there’s going to be a conversion, right? When does general practice [00:34:50] singularity come together as one, right, as the total wellness place? Yeah. Um, [00:34:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the thing that surprised you the most [00:35:00] about dentists, dental practices, the dental sector? When [00:35:05] you came to us?

Andrew Bower: When I came into it. Again, [00:35:10] different things for different reasons, right? Yeah. I think [00:35:15] people in the industry, I, I was quite surprised by the entrepreneurial [00:35:20] spirit in the dentist world, if I’m honest with you. I’ve met a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, there’s [00:35:25] a lot of entrepreneurs, people who want to drive the clinical medical, but also want to run a business. And [00:35:30] looking at that, that surprised me. Um, and therefore is a knock on effect. I was quite [00:35:35] surprised by the commercial aspect in some regions and certainly in North America, you know, discussions [00:35:40] we’re having with practice managers, practice owners, how do you scale the revenue, etc.. That’s surprising me a little bit. [00:35:45] And what also surprised me was when I went more to Asia, the [00:35:50] lack of investment in oral health, you know, I everyone takes [00:35:55] good care of their teeth, right? And I’m a clinician and I can’t stand their breath. There’s something going on [00:36:00] here, right? Like, why is that? And I’m like, why, why are we [00:36:05] so much more developed here in the West? And certainly kind of Western Europe and North America than we are [00:36:10] in China. Japan when it comes to oral health. What’s the underlying cause for that? That completely surprised me. And [00:36:15] I wonder, and this is a complete hypothesis, right? Is it truly about the clinical research [00:36:20] that we’ve done there versus here and the acceptance of clinical research? I don’t know. Um, [00:36:25] but that really shocked me. It really shocked me when I came into the category.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:36:30] I mean, I remember during Covid, some of the, [00:36:35] when you say businessmen, the people that even [00:36:40] a single practice owner, some of the resourcefulness that people showed at that time, [00:36:45] you know, getting, getting their team on board, communicating with their patients, all the PPE [00:36:50] stuff, when really we didn’t know what was going to happen. No one knew what was going [00:36:55] to happen. Some people, I remember thinking, what the hell is going to happen to our whole business [00:37:00] at that same time? There were people investing heavily, building out, [00:37:05] adding extra surgeries, you know, Confident in the idea that things [00:37:10] will get back to normal again. And as a profession, I think, you know, I [00:37:15] think we’re lucky in one sense that in in an uptime, [00:37:20] we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in a recession we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:37:25] there aren’t many businesses like that.

Andrew Bower: There isn’t. And there is the, the capital, shall [00:37:30] we say, play in Covid where, you know, it’s a time to invest when the market’s down, right? Yeah, yeah. [00:37:35] Down people to invest. So if you’re selling, people are doing that. But I agree with you. It is relatively [00:37:40] robust shall we say. Um, I think we’re seeing increased consolidation [00:37:45] across the board. And, and I think why I think we’re seeing that [00:37:50] is due to the administration side of things, right. Administration doesn’t get [00:37:55] easier. It gets more intense. And how can I offload that to focus on my practice [00:38:00] and the care I provide?

Payman Langroudi: I think when you deal with Bupa [00:38:05] As as a group. And then when you deal with other groups, you see [00:38:10] how differently people manage their businesses completely. And by the way, every [00:38:15] single practice, I must have visited a thousand practices. Each one is very different where [00:38:20] you’d imagine everything’s very similar. Um, and at this conference, I’ve noticed [00:38:25] and you guys really massive kudos to Bupa that I find it difficult [00:38:30] getting culture over to our 35 people.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you guys are 8000 [00:38:35] people and you’ve got the same sort of feeling, nice feeling [00:38:40] in the atmosphere of this conference. How do you guys deal with culture? What is [00:38:45] it to be working at Philips? What’s the difference between working at Philips and working somewhere else? [00:38:50]

Andrew Bower: It sounds it’s all about purpose. You know, every person you speak to at Philips is about the purpose, [00:38:55] and the purpose is about improving lives. And yes, it is a a big corporate enterprise. [00:39:00] And we play in every corner of the world. But everyone is motivated to drive positive [00:39:05] outcomes for either patients or consumers and clinicians. And [00:39:10] that purpose is what drives, drives us and being very single minded on that. Um, that’s [00:39:15] the rallying message. And I think that’s been.

Payman Langroudi: Practically how do you do it? I mean.

Andrew Bower: Oh, practically. [00:39:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an office in Jakarta and you want to change something. How do [00:39:25] you get that story through so many people, how.

Andrew Bower: We do things like this, right. We do things like this conference. Yeah, yeah. You know, [00:39:30] we bring people from around the globe together. We bring them together twice a year. We talk about what’s coming, [00:39:35] what’s working, what are we going to do next? And we’ve got, since Covid, [00:39:40] shall we say, incredibly good at doing all of that virtually. Yeah. You know, we have big regional hubs. We will [00:39:45] do a big event like this. We’ll bring people in. We’ll also do big watch parties, you know, and we’ll try and drive that [00:39:50] message. And then we’ll repeat that message every time we travel and we’re in there and we’ll host something to do [00:39:55] the same thing. But repetition is key, and creating a sense of belonging [00:40:00] is absolutely key. You know, you’ve got a sense of purpose, you’ve got a sense of belonging, and you feel empowered to do your work. [00:40:05] People are very loyal and people want to achieve good things. And that’s absolutely critical [00:40:10] for driving, shall we say, engagement and driving successful outcomes, both clinically [00:40:15] but also financially.

Payman Langroudi: How have you guys implemented AI in the business so [00:40:20] far? Do you see it as being much bigger thing going [00:40:25] forward?

Andrew Bower: I think AI is going to revolutionise everything we do. I think [00:40:30] we will lead with people, will drive process with AI, and [00:40:35] we are continuously looking at user cases and piloting [00:40:40] across the business, whether that’s supply chain, whether that’s R&D, whether [00:40:45] that’s marketing, whether that’s Dental. Ai is adopted everywhere, [00:40:50] and we are on a absolute mantra to get everybody [00:40:55] using AI every day to ensure that they can drive efficiencies. I [00:41:00] think, And I. And I think it’s going to truly help. I think [00:41:05] the one thing that we’re not talking about AI is the rising cost of AI. You know.

Payman Langroudi: The token [00:41:10] cost.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, the token cost, the token cost is incredibly, incredibly low. But it’s a big business [00:41:15] risk, right? That will go up. The more we get addicted, the more it’s going to go up. So it’s something we [00:41:20] have to plan for. You know, as we look at risk profiling as a business that actually the cost of AI [00:41:25] is going to is going to tremendously increase as we we continue then. [00:41:30]

Payman Langroudi: Have you had a frank conversation about job losses at Philips [00:41:35] because of AI?

Andrew Bower: Um. We. [00:41:40] The job losses, [00:41:45] productivity, as we would call it, productivity. Yes [00:41:50] and no. Right. Have we got to the stage yet where we think AI is replacing [00:41:55] people? No. Do we think we can make people more efficient? Yes. Could that lead to productivity [00:42:00] in the long term potentially, or it means the repurposing of people where we are. You know, I [00:42:05] take my my example, right? We’ve got a, you know, a workforce [00:42:10] in the US who visiting dentists every day. And I’ve also got a big workforce [00:42:15] who sat in a central office in Nashville who are answering customer calls. Yeah. Do I [00:42:20] believe that we can enhance that customer experience and that 100% [00:42:25] with AI? Do I think we could use that workforce 100%? Can I reapply that into [00:42:30] the field 100%? I want to focus on building relationships and automate everything [00:42:35] else we can do. To me. I see it more as repurpose and focus [00:42:40] on the people and then optimise where we can with with automation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good way [00:42:45] of looking at it, but but at the same time, you know, the two things must go together. If you can increase [00:42:50] productivity with fewer people, then there [00:42:55] must be a conversation, which I don’t hear the conversation very much at all anywhere.

Andrew Bower: No, it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: What happens when [00:43:00] people lose their jobs.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: Not only to them, what happens to all of us. [00:43:05]

Andrew Bower: Happens to all of us. No, I fully.

Payman Langroudi: Agree with toothbrushes.

Andrew Bower: I fully agree with you. And I think to me, the question is, is it about people losing jobs or [00:43:10] can you drive? Exponential growth in the business.

Payman Langroudi: Continued across the board?

Andrew Bower: No. Or can you drive that? [00:43:15] Can that can I help us drive step change to growth of the business that allows us to continuously invest in people? [00:43:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Andrew Bower: To have you. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: If there’s any questions, the QR code and I’ll read [00:43:30] out some of my favourites. Has anyone got any questions. Oh there are. What [00:43:35] is your ultimate [00:43:40] day look like. Oh personal or professional.

Andrew Bower: Oh my ultimate day. [00:43:45] Ultimate day. Get up, get up at six. Jim. Jim by 630 in the office by 830. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that? Anyway?

Andrew Bower: I do that three times a week in the office. 830 If I’m in [00:43:55] the office, ideally speaking to a customer or a consumer first thing, either [00:44:00] connect or go and visit one. Come back. Then, with the team reviewing [00:44:05] whatever projects we have going on, and then ideally spend a bit [00:44:10] of time at the end of the day, uh, reading consumer or clinical verbatims [00:44:15] of what’s happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:44:20] you going to fight to zoom versus enlighten? I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that’s a great one.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymous question. [00:44:25] Everyone [00:44:30] talks about AI and 3D printing, [00:44:35] but what’s on trend in dentistry for 2040 that you think is totally overhyped right now? What a. [00:44:40]

Andrew Bower: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant, brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: What’s overhyped? Brilliant [00:44:45] question, brilliant question. I [00:44:50] could argue systemic health.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, everyone’s [00:44:55] talking about it.

Andrew Bower: Talking about it. We’ve got a long way to go to it, right? Um, again, [00:45:00] you know, you’ve got to drive visibility. [00:45:05] Visibility creates a bias to action. And is it how deep does it [00:45:10] have to go to make people just care, take better care of themselves?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Another, [00:45:15] another mischievous one. What sets Sonicare apart from Oral-B? I don’t [00:45:20] need to answer.

Andrew Bower: Give me 30s for the pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Go for it, go [00:45:25] for it.

Andrew Bower: Look, I think our job is to drive manual to power conversion, right? We want people who are using a manual [00:45:30] toothbrush to use a Sonicare. And I believe Sonicare is an easier way to transition because you don’t have to [00:45:35] change your behaviour how you brush. So convert with Sonicare. Do you use a Sonicare?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I do.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:40]

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Andrew Bower: It.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I do, I do. It’s my favourite.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t tried the incumbent. Sorry. The new the new insurgent that [00:45:50] everyone’s talking about. Interesting question. Philips is an $18 billion [00:45:55] global health tech. Org with heavy regulatory, safety and quality obligations [00:46:00] at smaller start ups don’t carry. How do you innovate at speed, especially when [00:46:05] clinicians increasingly want to trial new solutions quickly and start-ups can iterate in [00:46:10] days rather than quarters. What a brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: A brilliant question, and hit the nail on the head, right? How [00:46:15] do you drive agility in a corporate, in a corporate? And that’s actually one of the key challenges, right? Yeah. [00:46:20] We have to continuously look at how we drive that agility to keep up speed, but [00:46:25] nothing compromises on quality. And what I mean quality, I mean also [00:46:30] regulatory. And I also mean clinical efficacy. So we will only deliver products that [00:46:35] truly add a benefit. And that takes a little bit longer than me going to China buying a toothbrush and put it on the market. [00:46:40] I could do that tomorrow. I won’t do that. I’ll make sure that it works. Yeah. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but the question still stands insomuch as how, how do you do, [00:46:50] how do you do agility across such a.

Andrew Bower: So I think for us Supertanker. Well, it comes back [00:46:55] to. Actually, it comes back to your first question. How far ahead do you think. Yeah. You think on a ten year horizon [00:47:00] it’s actually not about the agility of the day. It’s about actually predicting the future and making [00:47:05] sure you have your work streams in place to deliver on that, on a cadence that makes sense. And actually [00:47:10] looking at the business cadence of what you deliver is the key to beating that, because then it’s [00:47:15] sustainable and it’s replicable and builds off platforms which are critical for [00:47:20] delivering.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Mark talks about legacy. [00:47:25]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want your legacy to be in your time?

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:47:30] my legacy to be. That’s a good question. Yeah, I think. I [00:47:35] want my legacy to be [00:47:40] that we’ve managed to again, we’ve, I’ve significantly created products and services that [00:47:45] have improved patients and consumers lives. So if I can look back on my career and say, [00:47:50] actually, these devices or services made an impact to improve someone’s well-being [00:47:55] on a day to day basis. I’d be very happy.

Payman Langroudi: Final Dental [00:48:00] Leaders question. We tend to end with the fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [00:48:05] three guests. Dead or alive.

Andrew Bower: Ernest Shackleton.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Fantastic [00:48:10] leadership story and survival. Probably one of the greatest.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [00:48:15] tell the audience. If someone.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, if you don’t know. He went. He went down to the South Pole, got stuck, spent [00:48:20] a winter trying to get out of there, then made a small boat, sailed it for another [00:48:25] few months across the Southern Ocean. Hit an island, hiked over an island, [00:48:30] came back a year later, and not one of his team members had died. Tremendous story. [00:48:35] I think Leonardo da Vinci. I think fabulous, creative, [00:48:40] but also engineer. I admire his engineering.

Payman Langroudi: Both sides.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. And I [00:48:45] admire his engineering more than his art, if I’m honest with you. I think absolute genius when it comes to engineering, [00:48:50] which is absolutely fascinating. And I’m just personally [00:48:55] interested in Nelson Mandela also from his leadership, leadership and [00:49:00] tenacity. How do you continue to keep going when the, shall [00:49:05] we say, the bricks or whatever is pretty low? Yeah. So yeah, I think it’d be quite a fun dinner. [00:49:10] Well, it might not be that fun, but it’d be really interesting doing a party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a pleasure [00:49:15] having you. Thank you.

Andrew Bower: For being.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Andrew Bower: Open. Thank you for being here. And to you for having me here. Thank you. Appreciate [00:49:20] it. It [00:49:25] was a bit of joining in there. I like that.

Andrew Bower: So now it’s time for the final session of the day. [00:49:30] I’m going to spend about 90 minutes taking you through everything that we’ve covered. No, seriously. [00:49:35] I’m just going to do a few wrap up comments just to finish the day before I do [00:49:40] that. I must do this now. Otherwise I will forget. I’ve got to take a selfie with the whole [00:49:45] audience. So come on, show some energy like you’re enjoying yourself. Brilliant. [00:49:50] That will be on Mark Alan Dental [00:49:55] on Instagram later. I’ve I’ve got 803 followers now, so I’m [00:50:00] doing quite well. Maybe I can get to 810 by the end of the the the day. So yeah, [00:50:05] just a few closing thoughts from me. Um, first of all, I want to say a massive [00:50:10] thank you to everyone who’s been involved in putting this incredible event together. Firstly, [00:50:15] our sponsors, you’ve seen their names all over the shop on the screen, you’ve seen their [00:50:20] videos, you’ve seen their stands. And none of this would be possible without the contribution that they [00:50:25] make. So a massive thank you to everyone who’s been involved from that perspective. Um, [00:50:30] ICC [00:50:35] Birmingham, I think it’s been a tremendous location. We’ve basically taken the whole place over [00:50:40] for two days. You’ve seen Dental health is live. You’ve seen Bupa dental care everywhere, but [00:50:45] the way the venues worked and the support we’ve had has also been amazing, as has the support we’ve had from [00:50:50] telex.

Andrew Bower: Who are the team you see buzzing around, miking us up and making sure everything runs to plan? [00:50:55] So thank you to both ICC Birmingham and Telex. And [00:51:00] the biggest thank [00:51:05] you is to the team of people who’ve put this together. We started the journey of doing [00:51:10] the second Dental Health is live conference about a year ago. So much earlier than the [00:51:15] last one. Um, the team have done an incredible job. If you saw how smoothly [00:51:20] the organisation has gone, um, the, the, what’s the right, the right [00:51:25] word, they just haven’t been demanding of, of any of our time. They’ve asked us for decisions when we’ve needed them. [00:51:30] They’ve given us everything we needed. I went on and on and on about the need for [00:51:35] a beating blue heart, wherever you can see it. And they managed to deliver that. Um, honestly, [00:51:40] the organisation has been incredible and the working party, you all know who you are [00:51:45] have been superb, but in particular, Christian and Vicky, who’ve been at the forefront [00:51:50] of everything, have done an unbelievable job of putting something like this together. It’s really hard to do. [00:51:55] So thank you so much for creating the experience. So [00:52:05] you’ve probably noticed over the last two days, pretty much everything has been put together and hangs [00:52:10] on this, this formula here, the four P’s, the new places rather than practices. [00:52:15]

Andrew Bower: And then we introduced this concept of, of as one, this incredible [00:52:20] opportunity that we’ve got with all of these unique assets that we have within the Bupa group that [00:52:25] make us different to all of our competitors. And the other thing that’s been really true, I think about [00:52:30] as one is even yesterday when I was on the stage, I still felt a bit like we were still talking about [00:52:35] Bupa like some other company. Um, but I feel like somehow in the last 24 hours that’s [00:52:40] evaporated and I genuinely feel like I’m in a room of people who either work with Bupa as clinicians [00:52:45] or work for Bupa as employees. And trust me, that is incredibly powerful [00:52:50] for us to be able to now move forward as one organisation, all pointing in the same direction, and then enabling [00:52:55] us to deliver that performance health that we’re looking to do, which, as we said yesterday, enables [00:53:00] us then to keep reinvesting in the business and keep moving forward and making sure that we can be at the forefront [00:53:05] of that 2040 picture that we just heard about. Um, I hope [00:53:10] you’ve all got over the shock of a bunch of dancers appearing at the start of yesterday. Um, I, [00:53:15] I’ve watched that video back about 30 times and it gave me real energy. Um, and if [00:53:20] you remember, when I came on, I talked about that piece that they did being about empowerment.

Andrew Bower: And we said over [00:53:25] these two days, our job with all of you is to try and harness the energy here and unlock [00:53:30] something special so that we can go and do amazing things together. Um, and I feel [00:53:35] like again, that’s been really harnessed and the energy, honestly, over the last two days has been absolutely [00:53:40] superb. I guess the thing with conferences like this is. [00:53:45] First of all, they do cost a lot of money. Secondly, they take a bit of time in organising. [00:53:50] There’s a massive sacrifice from all of you to be here. Clinicians not being in in [00:53:55] surgery, you not being in your practices. Um, I saw the trading results from yesterday [00:54:00] at 1040 this morning and I felt a little bit sick and a bit depressed. Um, [00:54:05] but this is a massive investment and it’s only worth doing if we move beyond [00:54:10] just having a really nice time for two days. But if we go back to our practices, to our support [00:54:15] centre, to our functions, and basically decide that we’re going to start doing things even better [00:54:20] tomorrow, we’re going to take the stuff that we’ve taken on board, the things that you’ve learned in the in the [00:54:25] clinical sessions or the, the other learning sessions, or just the messages that you’ve picked up or the conversations [00:54:30] that you’ve had.

Andrew Bower: We have to take that and then kick on again tomorrow. And it’s [00:54:35] not about doing loads more new things. It’s about taking the spirit of this conference [00:54:40] and integrating it into your to do lists and resolving to be even better and just fill those gaps, [00:54:45] particularly that piece around the leaky bucket. So please do take this and take [00:54:50] it back in with you. Um, tomorrow there is a dental health is live [00:54:55] um, toolkit in a box. I think that’s on its way to you that you can then go back and share [00:55:00] with your practices and try and keep that spirit going. So please do everything you can to, to really [00:55:05] make sure we keep this energy going. And the final thing for me really is [00:55:10] just to say a massive thank you to all of you. Honestly, it’s been a real privilege to be part [00:55:15] of it. It’s been really great to be able to spend time with, with, with all of you watching the energy last night, [00:55:20] even people trying to drag me up. I did make it onto the dance floor. I was in the centre of the [00:55:25] mosh pit, which I thought was fine. Um, but my dance lie at the start of yesterday’s [00:55:30] session was exposed when I saw a video this morning of some really, really bad dad dancing.

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:55:35] but your energy’s been really superb. And what’s been really energising [00:55:40] for me personally is two things. One is the number of people who’ve come up to tell me [00:55:45] that the things that we’re doing are making a difference. So, you know, I’ve got this new chair. Thank you. [00:55:50] This has been great. Or I’ve learned something. That session really moved me. All of that stuff is great. [00:55:55] But what’s just as powerful is a number of you have still come up and said, can I talk to you? In fact, I’ve [00:56:00] seen you out of the corner of my eye, waiting while I’m talking to someone else. And I’ve spoken to you and you’ve [00:56:05] said, thank you for the conference. It’s been great, but can I tell you about something that’s still not good enough? And [00:56:10] that is what will help us move forward. We mustn’t lose that ability to keep calling out the things that we need [00:56:15] to do better, and particularly that us as a Dental executive team need to stay focussed [00:56:20] on so we make your lives easier so you can carry on doing amazing things for our patients. So thank [00:56:25] you so much for everything. It’s a real privilege to to have been here with you over the last two days. [00:56:30] And please have a safe journey back to wherever you’re travelling. So thanks very much.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know. The more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Dipesh Parmar. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] makeover.com for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me [00:00:50] great pleasure to welcome Ian Dunn onto the podcast. Ian is a specialist periodontist [00:00:55] um taught at Liverpool You clan, I noticed [00:01:00] and also teach GDPs on as well with the um, perio [00:01:05] courses. That’s right. Um, massive pleasure to have you, my buddy. Thanks for coming. Finally. [00:01:10] It’s been.

Payman Langroudi: A pleasure. I know we’ve been talking about this for a very long time, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I remember getting the message from you about a [00:01:15] couple of weeks ago saying, where are we up to with this? And yeah, the last message before that was about nine months ago, I think. So [00:01:20] somehow we got lost in the aether, didn’t we?

Payman Langroudi: And you’re a Scouser? Born and bred.

Payman Langroudi: I am, yeah, for my [00:01:25] sins. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what, the University of Liverpool as well?

Payman Langroudi: No. Uh, I [00:01:30] chose I went to Leeds. Yeah. Um, but then I ended up moving straight [00:01:35] back because my girlfriend at the time was also from Liverpool. Um, and she was [00:01:40] a solicitor, so she got her first legal job there and that dragged us, dragged me back to Liverpool [00:01:45] to sort of be with her.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your wife.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Yeah. And she is now my wife, so it was a good move. [00:01:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you meet him in university?

Payman Langroudi: No, we actually met at home. Believe it or not, she was at university [00:01:55] in Manchester. Um, we met at home. We struck up a relationship. We made it work while [00:02:00] we were both away at uni, and, uh. Yeah, it’s. We’ve all lived happily ever after.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] which which student were you?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:02:10] was probably I was a bit of a work hard, play hard type person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:15] I was certainly successful humans. Yeah. I needed [00:02:20] to work hard. I don’t think I’m naturally gifted in terms of intelligence. I’m not stupid, [00:02:25] but I’m not super academic. Um, I don’t mind telling you, I reset [00:02:30] one of my A-levels because I dipped out initially and did an extra year to go, you know, get what I [00:02:35] wanted. I do think once I got to university, I did thrive because I’d found the thing [00:02:40] that I loved and I found studying much easier than I had found my A-levels.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I really did. [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s different. Yeah, people get shocked. I got shocked in university. Biochemistry and anatomy. [00:02:50] I broke my heart.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t get me wrong, the first year was a chore. But once I hit the clinical bit, I. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Love.

Payman Langroudi: That. I loved it, I absolutely loved it. Um, and so yeah, [00:03:00] but then in, in the background, I was a swimmer and water polo player. So I captained [00:03:05] the water polo team at the university. So that was a big part of my life. And also a big part of the social, [00:03:10] the social scene. Um, and I was the first person to put my hand up for a party or, you [00:03:15] know, so I really did. Yeah. University was just.

Payman Langroudi: Which one were you? What years were you in Leeds? [00:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: 93 to 98. It’s a really good time. Leeds was changing. It went from [00:03:25] a sort of a Yorkshire city town to what was quite a sort of booming, [00:03:30] more cosmopolitan city. Harvey Nicks came to Leeds at that time.

Payman Langroudi: I remember.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:03:35] and it was great. It was a great time to be a student in Leeds, really was.

Payman Langroudi: I was there recently for a [00:03:40] okay. And it reminded me that back when we started enlightened, obviously, [00:03:45] I used to go see dentists and stuff, and I’d been to Leeds a few times and [00:03:50] I got almost like a weird sort of a flashback of [00:03:55] because it’s that pedestrianised zone, isn’t it? And I used to carry this light activated [00:04:00] machine. Teeth whitening, teeth whitening machine in Leeds. I [00:04:05] walked into a place. Do you remember those Polaroid cameras? Yeah, they were for Dental. They [00:04:10] were?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Yeah. So I walked into this practice carrying this machine [00:04:15] and a computer and all that.

Payman Langroudi: And they were huge, weren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And the camera around my neck. And I remember [00:04:20] I pushed the button by mistake and took a photo. I was like, I took a photo. [00:04:25] It’s a joke, man. Um, so did you think [00:04:30] that you made a decision to be very good at dentistry [00:04:35] in university or after that? Because obviously this decision came [00:04:40] in at one point when you said you want to do periodontics, but years later. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [00:04:45] I’d like to think that that was more of an accident, if I’m being truly honest. I see a lot of young graduates who [00:04:50] are very focussed and very driven. Um, I think we’re a similar vintage when you go back. I [00:04:55] qualified in 98, and that was the year that the high street specialist list was sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of coming out. [00:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: That was the that was the year it became on the scene. So prior to that, you either were a GDP or you [00:05:05] were a hospital specialist. There wasn’t really a blurred sort of high street specialist. There was 1 [00:05:10] or 2. There was your Mike Wiser’s. And in the North West we had people like David Cohen, the Endodontist [00:05:15] and Phil Green. But it really wasn’t a thing. Um, and so none of us really, [00:05:20] at that time thought about specialisation unless you knew you wanted a career in the hospital. So [00:05:25] I enjoyed my university and I didn’t want to be rubbish, but I don’t [00:05:30] think I set myself out to be anything special. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you, I mean, did you have [00:05:35] dentists or medics in the family?

Payman Langroudi: I’m the first person in my family to go to university. Really? So my dad [00:05:40] was a policeman. Uh, my mum worked for, of all things master suite company. Really? [00:05:45] So, uh, sort of the reverse of Willy Wonka. So the dentist, Dad [00:05:50] and the chocolatey taste son were the other way around.

Payman Langroudi: So why dentist? How did it come about?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:05:55] that’s another story. So I did maths, physics and chemistry, with maths [00:06:00] and physics being my strong subjects. Me too. Um. Pick my A-levels with a view to being an engineer. [00:06:05] And I remember going to a careers day at Liverpool University to decide [00:06:10] on whether I was going to do chemical, electrical, mechanical. And every lecture I [00:06:15] went into, I walked out going, yeah, it’s not that one. And then I go to the next one and walk out. It’s not [00:06:20] that one. And then I got to the end and I was like, oh God, I don’t know what I’m going to do. And genuinely, [00:06:25] there was a panic. Um, so I then went to a, [00:06:30] a careers evening at my school. Um, this is at lower [00:06:35] sixth and I’ve got to make a decision by the Christmas for my Ucca form, as we called [00:06:40] it back then. Yeah. And I really didn’t have a clue because engineering was written off for [00:06:45] me. It had not no one had shown me anything that ticked the boxes. And so I.

Payman Langroudi: Went. Maths [00:06:50] in engineering isn’t it? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very maths heavy.

Payman Langroudi: It, maths and physics. But it was what I was good at [00:06:55] and that’s why I thought that’s what I was going to do. Yeah. Um and then I picked the [00:07:00] most eclectic bunch of uh, careers to go and listen to. I went to the [00:07:05] RAF, I went to law, I went to something in sports science [00:07:10] and I went to dentistry and a guy called George Lee from Liverpool University. He was [00:07:15] a paediatric consultant. He just he said a few things that made me think, [00:07:20] do you know what that’s that sounds all right. He sort of. He sold the fact that there was a science element. He [00:07:25] sold the fact that, you know, every day is different. He sold the fact that if you [00:07:30] like, if you like people, dentistry is a great job. Um, I think too [00:07:35] many people go into dentistry who don’t like people, I think, I think, and they found that very stressful. [00:07:40] And I remember leaving that, that careers evening, uh, and a load of us bear [00:07:45] in mind, we were lower six. We all went to the pub that night and um, we were chatting [00:07:50] about, you know, what we’d seen, what we’d listened to and people saying, you know, what are you going to do? I said, you know what [00:07:55] I think? I think I might look into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And everyone was flabbergasted. People called [00:08:00] me a money grubbing, all sorts. And I actually genuinely didn’t know any dentists [00:08:05] apart from my own, um, didn’t know that there was that legacy, but just [00:08:10] thought it seemed like a good job. Um, my mum walked down to the bottom of [00:08:15] our road and knocked on the the practice door at the bottom and asked if I could [00:08:20] do some work experience. Uh, and I went and did some work experience with two dentists, Clive [00:08:25] Harden and Mike Horwich. So you’ll know from Simply Endo. Yeah, well, he was just a local GDP at [00:08:30] the time really. And I went and spent a couple of days with those guys and just thought, you know what? [00:08:35] That’s it. That to me seems like a really great job. Um, if, [00:08:40] if they’ve not gone to that lecture by George Lee, I’d probably be doing something totally different. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The sliding door.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Feels that way, to be honest. I’ve [00:08:50] got a few of those in my career, but that was definitely one of them. Dentistry was not on the table, not [00:08:55] in the family.

Payman Langroudi: Had you gone to a comprehensive school?

Payman Langroudi: It [00:09:00] was a state school, but it was essentially a state grammar school. A bit [00:09:05] a little bit different, but selective entry. But we didn’t it wasn’t private. We didn’t pay to go. Um, [00:09:10] very good school. We did. The school does very well still. Um, [00:09:15] but yeah, just a bit of a strange. It was far from a comprehensive, equally it wasn’t [00:09:20] privately funded.

Payman Langroudi: But what was going through your head, I mean, being the first person to go to university [00:09:25] in your family. Um, I’ve heard I’ve had other people sitting where you’re sitting telling me they had like a sort [00:09:30] of inferiority complex, thinking of coming from a state school. I suppose this one was quite a quality [00:09:35] state school. It was the you see, sometimes people go [00:09:40] to private school. The. The one big difference You see, it’s like almost false confidence. [00:09:45] Your kids or something.

Payman Langroudi: No, no that’s not that’s not reasonable. I think [00:09:50] you’re right. The school environment I was in was it ran like a grammar school. [00:09:55] There were prefects. There were uniforms all the way through. There were everyone was.

Payman Langroudi: Well behaved and.

Payman Langroudi: Generally. [00:10:00] Yes, you know, as much as possible. Schools have characters. Yeah. Um but there was [00:10:05] a, there was an academic, a real academic push. If you got [00:10:10] through to your A-levels, you were, you were sort of expected to go to university though. So I think I’d sort of [00:10:15] gone through the school thinking, well, if I pass my exams, well, I’ll go from GCSEs [00:10:20] to A-levels over passed my A-levels, I’ll go from A-levels to to university. That just seemed to be natural [00:10:25] progression. The fact that my family had never done that didn’t really mind. Um, [00:10:30] and I think the only difficult bit was really I remember my dad saying to me when I was trying to decide what [00:10:35] to do, I can’t really advise you on anything because we’ve never done it. Um, and he was always [00:10:40] very honest, But I’ve got to be, to be fair, both very supportive.

Payman Langroudi: So how high [00:10:45] had your dad gone in the police?

Payman Langroudi: He was a constable all the way through to retirement.

Payman Langroudi: So reflections [00:10:50] of like the son of a policeman. Like what? What.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:10:55] I’ll tell you what, my wife’s father was also a policeman. He went very senior police officer. [00:11:00] Um, but we, my wife and I both, we’ve talked about this recently. We have a very [00:11:05] strong sense of right and wrong and fairness. And that comes from [00:11:10] a law and order background. Mhm. Um, never really thought about [00:11:15] it too much, but but growing up in Liverpool in the sort of 80s, I suppose [00:11:20] Toxteth.

Payman Langroudi: Riots.

Payman Langroudi: Toxteth riots in the 80s, my dad policed the Toxteth riots.

Payman Langroudi: Did he, did he.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:11:25] and there was a little bit of animosity towards children of policemen amongst [00:11:30] certain people. Even though we were in a fairly middle class school, there were still some people who gave you [00:11:35] a bit of a difficult time about that. Um, deep down I was quite proud of what my dad did. It was, [00:11:40] you know, it was one of those jobs. You could say, well, it’s a right and wrong. Catching the bad guys type thing. [00:11:45] Um, but yeah, it was there were challenges, there’s no doubt about it. A few people made things a bit [00:11:50] difficult at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So you say you’ve got this sort of ethical dimension in your thinking.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [00:11:55] like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example. I [00:12:00] mean, a nuanced one, right? Not, not an obvious one. For instance, let’s start. Let’s start [00:12:05] with, you know, what is it to be a professional? You know, in dentistry, there’s plenty of scope, isn’t there, to, [00:12:10] to go off, off piste or, you know, no one’s really [00:12:15] looking over your shoulder. No. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, do you know you’ve already nailed it there. I’ve [00:12:20] seen this recently and I’ve, I completely agree. Being a professional is doing the right thing [00:12:25] when no one else is watching. And even when that thing that you’re doing may not be to your benefit, [00:12:30] it might be to your financial detriment, but it’s the right thing to do at the time for that [00:12:35] patient that is part of a professional approach to a clinician. [00:12:40] Um, I think there’s also elements of just general behaviour. You know, I think the way you live your [00:12:45] life, the, the way you publicise yourself to the public, [00:12:50] you know, that that upholds hopefully trust in the profession. Um, [00:12:55] and I think there’s elements of that that is being diluted. Um, uh, social media [00:13:00] does that, doesn’t it? I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Are we talking, are you thinking of, uh, private jets [00:13:05] and um, that, that whole.

Payman Langroudi: Not even just that I mean, that reinforces the stereotype [00:13:10] that dentistry is all about finance and money. And whilst for some people, I think it is, I [00:13:15] spend a lot of time, I have a lot of people come and shadow me in the practice, a lot of um, foundation dentists, a lot [00:13:20] of people who are thinking of getting into perio, so many good people in dentistry who really [00:13:25] are just in it for the patient and just want to do the right thing, that I’d love that [00:13:30] to be seen more by the public. And I don’t think it is because we’re in a world of who shouts [00:13:35] the loudest gets the most attention. Um, and I do think that to [00:13:40] a point waters down professional the profession, whether whether we say professionalism. [00:13:45] But I think deep down it’s putting the patient first, doing the right thing. [00:13:50] Um, even like, even like when you said no one’s really over your shoulder at [00:13:55] some point, those things when you’re doing the wrong thing and they’re going to come back and bite you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Or not. Right. [00:14:00] But as you say, as you say, the one of the cornerstones of being a professional is that [00:14:05] I mean, it’s interesting because, you know, there’s, there are benefits to being a professional. [00:14:10] Yeah. Take it down to simple, you know, why, why do they patients come to you [00:14:15] to sign off their passports? Yeah. There’s a, there’s a, there’s an ethical dimension there. They’re not saying, go [00:14:20] to the pizza guy and sign your passport. And so with those benefits come responsibilities. [00:14:25] And I think the number one one in dentistry is that question of trust and [00:14:30] the privilege of the patient privilege of, of patient allowing you to be their [00:14:35] dentist and taking that seriously. Right. And you’re right, that conversation may not be had [00:14:40] enough on social. I think you mean social social. [00:14:45] Focusing on the wrong things.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is. I think you know that that doing [00:14:50] the right thing for the patient is probably not talked about. It’s not celebrated enough. [00:14:55] I think plenty of people do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um Kelleher and the daughter test [00:15:00] kind of thing was in our day was was a thing wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. And I think [00:15:05] I do think those tests still apply. Um, I genuinely [00:15:10] think, I like to think every night when I go to bed, every patient that see me that day is [00:15:15] better off for having seen me for sure. Genuinely clinically better off. Yes, they’ve [00:15:20] paid and they’ll pay, you know, handsomely for specialist care. But, you know, it’s rare that [00:15:25] we’re doing stuff to people that they don’t benefit from. And there isn’t ultimately an underlying [00:15:30] negative to what we’ve just done. I mean, we all have mistakes. And yeah, I’m sure you might cover those [00:15:35] later on.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll be going into those.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, I think generally I like to, you know, I put my head [00:15:40] on the pillow and think, you know what? Today I’ve helped people, uh, people are better off and haven’t been under my [00:15:45] care. And that’s quite a nice feeling. I don’t ever sit there thinking, oh, that was [00:15:50] a bit dodgy or give them a time again. I wouldn’t do that again. You know, I lie with my head on the pillow [00:15:55] because I’ve got a family and I’m happy to tell patients, no, that I won’t do stuff. You [00:16:00] know, what people want. And what I’m prepared to do is a fine balance. You know, I’ll always do what’s right. And I’ll always try and save [00:16:05] people from themselves, um, and guide them as best possible. Uh, and I [00:16:10] think.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s kind of interesting as well, right? Because, you know, the daughter test, would [00:16:15] you do this treatment on your own daughter? Yeah, yeah. It kind of ignores the consent [00:16:20] part of, of it because, you know, it’s almost like your daughter will do what she’s told by [00:16:25] you. Yeah, yeah. And it depends, man. It depends if your daughter is, uh, whatever [00:16:30] model. And she wants to drill these teeth to put [00:16:35] veneers on them, even though she’s 24. Yeah. You, as the dentist may say, I don’t [00:16:40] think that’s the right idea, but the consent point goes to once [00:16:45] you’ve given the the information to her. Yeah, it’s her decision, not [00:16:50] yours. And you know, that sort of patriarchal thing that that doctors and dentists used to know best. Yeah. [00:16:55] That’s certainly not the case anymore. Right.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s fair as long as the consent [00:17:00] is valid. Yeah. Because we all know you use the word trust [00:17:05] before. I think we all know that you could probably sell any treatment to any patient, whether [00:17:10] it be the right or the wrong treatment, because there is that trust and you can make anything sound good, bad or indifferent. [00:17:15] Yeah. So I think it goes back to validity. Have you really given the pros and the cons and [00:17:20] and that I’m not convinced is done across the board as well as it could be. And I think ultimately, [00:17:25] at the end of the day, we can reserve the right to say to the patient, look, you can have this done, but [00:17:30] I’m not going to be the person who does it. And we do that with our patients. We especially with some of our implant [00:17:35] patients, we. One of the practice policies and people don’t always agree with this is we say to [00:17:40] patients, we don’t put implants into smokers because we get increased failures, increased call [00:17:45] out increased complications. And we we stress you can have implants. Smoking [00:17:50] does not contraindicate you, but we don’t want to accept the additional risk. And we’d ask that you seek a [00:17:55] second opinion or you stop smoking, and then we’ll open up the floodgates [00:18:00] and we’ll do the very best for you. So I think you can still apply the door to test. [00:18:05] And the patient could still choose to have the treatment that you don’t think is right. I think we still reserve [00:18:10] the right not to do it and not have the attitude, well, if someone’s going to do it, I might as well do it. I still [00:18:15] I still like to think that if I don’t think it’s right, I’m actually not going to do it. And I’m [00:18:20] lucky that my chair is always going to be full. In the north west of England. There’s so few periodontists. [00:18:25] Um. I’m drowning in work. I can afford to say to people [00:18:30] this is not a case for me. Um. And walk away from it.

Payman Langroudi: Although when [00:18:35] we think back to that professional discussion, you know, I hear you, I hear you. You’re [00:18:40] saying the motivation isn’t even there. Um, but if you’re a professional, then you’re [00:18:45] not going to do that wrong thing anyway. But but but let’s, let’s move on.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:18:50] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Tell me, how many years did you practice as a generalist? [00:18:55]

Payman Langroudi: I did about seven years as an NHS GDP. [00:19:00] Um, in that time I had started [00:19:05] teaching a day a week at Liverpool. Initially, I just got [00:19:10] a job in the sort of A&E department sort of doing any old. I just wanted to be around the [00:19:15] academic institution really and get involved. So that wasn’t actually a teaching role. And [00:19:20] then the job came up. Um, and I didn’t want to be a periodontist, I. I [00:19:25] got this.

Payman Langroudi: Off the most sexy sounding.

Payman Langroudi: But true story this. I was on the clinic. [00:19:30] Um, I was, I was consenting somebody for an extraction on the A.D department [00:19:35] and a lady came in lady called Eileen Thiel. Uh, I had never met this lady before. [00:19:40] And she walked in and she said to me, are you Ian Dunn? And I said, yes. And she said, come upstairs and [00:19:45] see me. I need to speak to you. And when she walked out, I said to my nurse, who’s that? And they said, oh, [00:19:50] Eileen Thiel, what have you done wrong? Because she had this reputation for, you know, she was one of gay [00:19:55] people, a bit of a rollicking. Um, anyway, went upstairs, spoke to her and she said, oh, you know, your name [00:20:00] has been put forward as someone who’s a good guy. Keen. Um, we’ve got an opportunity for teaching. [00:20:05] And I thought, fantastic, let’s hope it’s something sexy like endo or crown and bridge [00:20:10] or um, and she said, it’s perio. And I thought, oh God. Right. Okay. And, [00:20:15] but I thought, right, I mean, because I needed to get off the ground floor at Liverpool ground floor was like the, [00:20:20] the workhorse department upstairs was teaching. I thought, just get upstairs, get this job. [00:20:25] They’ll realise I’m a good guy. They’ll give me one of the more sexy jobs. Let’s just take the job. Take the job. [00:20:30] And and that. That was the beginning of my career. Uh, there’s [00:20:35] more to that.

Payman Langroudi: But that opportunity was there, so it wasn’t initially a period job. But you asked [00:20:40] about general dentist about 7 to 8 years as a GDP Udas [00:20:45] were coming, and I wasn’t a high grossing dentist at all. Um, [00:20:50] there’s probably a story behind that, I suppose, but it wasn’t particularly high grossing dentist. Um, and [00:20:55] so I moved towards the private sector and ran [00:21:00] that alongside my one day a week. Uh, but, but I was building perio interest. I was [00:21:05] actually focusing my postgrad on perio at this point. Um, but I was very much a general dentist probably, [00:21:10] well, 2008, ten years, at least ten years doing [00:21:15] a significant chunk of general dentistry, which is, I think, again, very different [00:21:20] to modern young specialists. Uh, you know, I do think [00:21:25] one of the things that comes across when I lecture is I’ve walked a mile in most people’s shoes. [00:21:30] Um, I have done NHS, I have worked in fairly grotty, [00:21:35] you know, fully exempt type practices. I’ve done the whole shebang. [00:21:40] Um, and I think when I then teach, I’m not coming from that ivory [00:21:45] tower, sort of never seen it, never done it. Uh, and I, and I’m told that [00:21:50] comes across so, but yeah, a long time as a GDP and I’ve never lost those GDP skills. I’ve got [00:21:55] about 40 patients who followed me over the years. As far as they’re concerned, I’m their general dentist. [00:22:00] Still see them.

Payman Langroudi: And do you still teach in the hospital?

Payman Langroudi: No, I left in 2018.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:22:05] my question is, if in 2018 you were teaching and you saw a fourth [00:22:10] year student who was taking a particular interest in perio, and [00:22:15] they said, look, Ian, a love perio, Would your advice be still, [00:22:20] go out and do general first before focusing [00:22:25] in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not not even just perio. I my view is that [00:22:30] for you to be an all rounded specialist within the restorative specialities, I [00:22:35] think you’ve got to have a broad overview of how.

Payman Langroudi: Would you not get that in perio training. [00:22:40] Do they not. So I mean there must be like restorative training in period training. Right.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:22:45] do. I mean I’ve never done that mono speciality training route. And mine was a bit back to front [00:22:50] and made up as we go along a little bit. Um and I do think they, [00:22:55] you know, I listened to a couple of your podcasts, listen to Payman Minhaj. He was a Liverpool graduate from [00:23:00] when I was there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you know her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she mentioned you.

Payman Langroudi: She’s she’s going to go on and do great things. [00:23:05] Uh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Loves gums, man.

Payman Langroudi: We all love gums.

Payman Langroudi: Periodontists do love your job. [00:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of its own that we love it that much. Um, but [00:23:15] yeah, she talked about working with the people and she, you know, and I think that’s [00:23:20] there. But working in a busy general practice environment, the diagnostic skills [00:23:25] that you get from seeing the aches, the pains, the toothaches, the decision making that [00:23:30] I still use that every single day. Um, and, and I’m [00:23:35] not convinced it’s as hard wired if you’ve just done the very pure mono [00:23:40] spec programs. Don’t get me wrong, it can be everything can be learned, everything can be developed, but I do. I [00:23:45] would love to see people go into speciality training just that little bit later. It’s all [00:23:50] a bit.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of the British way of looking at it though. Like our friends across the pond, they kind [00:23:55] of go very quickly sometimes into specialist training. And do you see that as like maybe [00:24:00] potential blind spots that they’re getting into?

Payman Langroudi: I think I go back [00:24:05] to having walked a mile in someone’s shoes.

Payman Langroudi: And referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Shoes Referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching, [00:24:10] I get.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding the difficulties that you refer as a facing. It’s [00:24:15] understanding that they often. Especially if you’re working in NHS practices, you’re [00:24:20] often having to work within the compromise that the systems puts on you. And actually having been there [00:24:25] and done it, you understand it, and you probably just a little bit more forgiving and tolerant [00:24:30] of what you see when other people may not be quite as, as, uh, open [00:24:35] minded about it. You know, I think if you go through that only having done everything perfect forever, [00:24:40] then it becomes a bit, well, there’s only one way to do things and that’s the right way and perfection. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so you made the decision once you’d gotten a bit more exposed to, [00:24:50] you know, you’re going to, I guess, sacrifice to get [00:24:55] the training. Yeah. I mean, what was, what was your period training in the end?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:00] the Liverpool job was purely floor walking supervised and general dentistry. [00:25:05] Uh, the students on the perio clinic. Yeah. But I, I [00:25:10] went away because So because I had got this period job, [00:25:15] I was four years qualified. I’d done loads of courses, I’d done everything occlusion, I’d [00:25:20] done endo, I’d done crown and bridge. Had I done any perio? No, because we had a hygienist [00:25:25] and they did that and that, you know, that was NHS, that was our practice. And so [00:25:30] I thought, God, I better do some proper, I better get up to speed if I’m going to be on the clinics. And [00:25:35] so I went on a course and we can talk about that later, um, [00:25:40] to get myself up to speed. And then what I found was because I was around perio and I was teaching [00:25:45] it just only basic, you know, non-surgical therapy on the clinic. [00:25:50] And because I’d been on this course, it was a four day course. And then I’d then gone back into my [00:25:55] own practice and I was just thinking about Peri a bit more. I was then starting to get better results. [00:26:00] People in my practice were starting in the NHS saying, we’ve seen some of your patients, [00:26:05] you’re getting really good outcomes. Can we send you some of our patients? And this was this [00:26:10] was, you know, this was just brilliant because people were starting to realise I was a bit bit better than others [00:26:15] at that. Some this one, this one thing. And I just thought, you know what, in going [00:26:20] back to the northwest in back, back in the early 2000, [00:26:25] we had one periodontist in the north west of England, Philip Green in Manchester. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy isn’t it. Wasn’t that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Mental. Um and he had a fabulous [00:26:35] reputation. He was very helpful once I put my head above the radar. Um and, [00:26:40] but Philip was the only guy. Um and Scousers don’t like going to Manchester, [00:26:45] so they, you know, they didn’t want to be referred. And I just, I saw it as, do you know what, I [00:26:50] like this and I’m good at it. And there’s an opportunity here. I then became a complete nuisance [00:26:55] to the perio staff at the hospital. I just spent every spare minute, you [00:27:00] know. Can I have my lunch with you? Can I talk to you about this? Can I watch a case that you’re doing? And [00:27:05] then again, another one of those sliding door moments. Uh, Callum Johnson moved from Leeds to Liverpool [00:27:10] as head of restorative, and he basically got rid of the mono spec [00:27:15] clinics because everything was taught individually, period, pros, cons and he [00:27:20] made everything restorative. So all the GDPs who were teaching perio were [00:27:25] moved to restorative. And Eileen Thiel, the lady I mentioned before, she [00:27:30] said, I want to keep one general dentist, uh, in the perio team. We need one extra body. [00:27:35] And so she approached me and said, look, you, you’re clearly into this. Now, [00:27:40] do you want to come on part of the team? So it’s like, great. So now now I’m starting to do actual lectures [00:27:45] and I’m running tutorials.

Payman Langroudi: But still part time, right? Still part time, still [00:27:50] GDP.

Payman Langroudi: Gdp. Well, yeah, I haven’t even started my master’s at this point. Um, [00:27:55] but they sort of spoon fed me, they gave me some very basic stuff, [00:28:00] some very, they gave me presentations to learn and deliver. Um, and then [00:28:05] ultimately, slowly but surely made those things my own. Um, but again, goes [00:28:10] back to what we were talking about before the podcast about being in the right place at the right time. But then what was coming was [00:28:15] that there were basically two people in that Perry department, plus me, and one of them was heading to retirement, [00:28:20] and they needed someone to be able to do some of the perio [00:28:25] surgery in the hospital. So because I was part of the team, they then trained [00:28:30] me up in the hospital to do perio surgery. And it was literally I would nurse for one of [00:28:35] the periodontists and watch a procedure. And then the second the next procedure that same morning, [00:28:40] they’d nurse and I’d do the procedure. It was like, see one, do one, teach one almost. [00:28:45] Um, and we, we did that 2 or 3 weeks on the road, the same procedure, [00:28:50] the same type of treatment. And then they’d let me loose to go and do that basic [00:28:55] type of treatment. And once my hands were working better, they then say, right, you’re now ready to do some sort [00:29:00] of soft tissue grafting and we’ll show you that. And we did the.

Payman Langroudi: So the type of surgery you were doing [00:29:05] back then. I remember you kind of. If non-surgical wasn’t [00:29:10] working, then you’d say, oh, now let’s do it surgically. As far as Débridement and all of [00:29:15] that, that was the kind of work. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Basic sort of pocket reduction type surgery. [00:29:20] You know, old school, modified widman flap type stuff that, you know. But yeah, simple, relatively [00:29:25] simple, but very effective at the time, you know, treatment.

Payman Langroudi: But fast forward is that [00:29:30] today no longer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we still I think we do a lot less surgery than we did probably 20 years ago. [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so what’s changed our understanding of like the patients we.

Payman Langroudi: Know how well non-surgical [00:29:40] therapy works. I think we also understand our clinical end points a bit [00:29:45] better that, you know, we used to be sort of terrified of leaving a pocket over three millimetres, [00:29:50] four millimetres. And now, you know, the BSP has come out with statements that pockets over, [00:29:55] you know, five, even maybe six millimetres that don’t bleed may not be active. And we [00:30:00] can, you know, actively monitor those cases. I think also when we do do surgery, we [00:30:05] probably do a bit more regenerative stuff. We’re trying to build build back rather than just resect. [00:30:10] So I think the surgery’s moved forwards and I think we’re also a lot less it’s a lot less [00:30:15] surgically aggressive.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s more minimally invasive.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re working more towards reattachment. [00:30:20] Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Reattachment. And where we can rebuilding of the periodontal apparatus, [00:30:25] the the bone, the periodontal ligament with the regenerative techniques. But that’s there are limitations [00:30:30] with that. Um, but, but that’s developing all the time. It’s exciting where that [00:30:35] can go. But that was my hospital background. I was essentially then working as a staff grade, uh, [00:30:40] one day a week and I was still in NHS GDP, but it was off the [00:30:45] back of that, that I then realised I, I could do it, but I didn’t actually know the literature. [00:30:50] I didn’t know why I was doing the stuff sometimes. And that’s when I went off and thought, [00:30:55] right, I need to go and do a master’s now. And, and that’s, that’s what I did. And so my.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, part [00:31:00] time.

Payman Langroudi: For four year.

Payman Langroudi: For three years with it wasn’t the full sort of [00:31:05] M Clin dent down here. I went up to. Yeah, yeah. Because I was, I was I had the clinical [00:31:10] components. I was doing that sort of over the shoulder stuff for about four years or [00:31:15] more really. Um, and eventually running my own list in the hospital being referred [00:31:20] stuff from the consultants, the sort of the prosthodontists and the endodontists to do surgical [00:31:25] perio. Um, and so I had all of that sort of over the [00:31:30] shoulder hospital training, but I just needed the academic component to fill in the gaps. And that even [00:31:35] that was for my own benefit really, because I was doing the job and I was good at it, but [00:31:40] I just felt the need to almost validate myself academically and just.

Payman Langroudi: And so was it worth it [00:31:45] in terms of do you think it was it was just an itch you had to scratch or did you actually learn [00:31:50] a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I just I loved every minute of it. Did [00:31:55] you. Yeah, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Just deep dive into it.

Payman Langroudi: I decided that I love Perrier [00:32:00] and just.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted as much as.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. So it was like, tell me as much as you can. Tell me. Tell me why we [00:32:05] know this and tell me, tell me about all the classic studies and tell, you know, we I was lucky at the [00:32:10] time to be taught by um, Jose Zurdo and Cristina Romano, husband and wife team from based [00:32:15] up in the Midlands at the Carisbrook. Um, and they were, they’d been trained in Gothenburg by Jan [00:32:20] Lindhe and all like the perio gods. So I just loved every minute of spending time [00:32:25] in their company. They’re still good friends. Um, I was going back to the university [00:32:30] with all this new knowledge and annoying the periodontist there with just my enthusiasm. [00:32:35] Um, but yeah, I got, I got loads out of it. Did it make me better?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:32:40] which aspect of perio at that point turned you on because you couldn’t go deep [00:32:45] into the whole autoimmune cellular level? No perio. Or you can obviously [00:32:50] go into the surgical side. You can go.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s be honest, as a youngster, you just love to do surgery, don’t [00:32:55] you? You just.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is that it?

Payman Langroudi: You know, it was that sort of, I can do something that other people can’t do and [00:33:00] I can I can take something. You know, it. You felt different. You there was an element of [00:33:05] this is exciting. You know, surgery is exciting. I think one of the one of the running jokes, often [00:33:10] in specialist training is they can teach you surgery in three months, but it then takes three years to teach you when [00:33:15] not to do it. Um, and that’s one of the things as you, as personally as I think, [00:33:20] as we get older and more experienced, I’m less surgically aggressive than I used to [00:33:25] be. Um, just again, comes with experience and it comes from complications. [00:33:30] It comes from all sorts.

Payman Langroudi: And much less predictable than hard tissue work, [00:33:35] isn’t it? I mean, in so much, as you know, you put the gum back on that day, it looks [00:33:40] completely wrong. And then you have to sort of do it correctly so it matures into [00:33:45] the correct situation.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s very fair. And I think you [00:33:50] ask any of the implant guys who, you know, drill holes in bone, they once [00:33:55] they’ve got that skill, they. They know that’s not the skill. It’s the manipulation. Manipulation of the soft [00:34:00] tissues, the making, the making the implant look like a tooth. And not just a not just a [00:34:05] screw in bone. Um, and you look at, you know, the guys who [00:34:10] are very, very good at their implant and their soft, their plastic surgery [00:34:15] is, is as good as anyone in the country, if not the world. Um, so yeah, it’s soft tissue [00:34:20] is very, everything heals eventually, but it can also be very unforgiving. And you know, [00:34:25] when you, when you cut something hard, like a tooth or bone tends to do as it’s told. Yeah. [00:34:30] And soft tissue, you’ve got to really know how to handle Palmer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He, he’s now going [00:34:35] quite deep into plastic surgery. And he was telling me that the rate of improvement [00:34:40] is so much slower than composite. Yeah. Because it’s so unpredictable. [00:34:45] It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting that he’s going into that. I always say deep down everyone loves [00:34:50] Perrier. They just don’t know it yet. It’s a sign of maturity when you realise that perio is everything. [00:34:55] But, um. So tell him. Well done. It’s not too late.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, [00:35:00] he’s super interested in it. He’s even got a periodontist. Well, someone with a special interest work in the practice, but. [00:35:05] So I said to her, why are you bothering with this guy? Could do it. And he said, it’s just super interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then do [00:35:10] you know what? That it doesn’t matter what. When you find something you love, you [00:35:15] just want to dive into it as much as you can, don’t you? And I see that with, you know, I work with a couple of really good endo nerds [00:35:20] and, and they’re brilliant and they, they just love every aspect. I couldn’t wait to stop doing [00:35:25] endo.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think my thesis is wrong? You must have heard my. I’ve said it so many times. The notion of you [00:35:30] love whatever you’re good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really. There isn’t. There [00:35:35] isn’t a thing in your brain that makes you more loving of gums than endo. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think there’s. Oh, well. But then I would also say, I would argue that different [00:35:45] personalities are going to be good at different things, because perio has a huge chunk of psychology [00:35:50] and, and patient behaviour and communication, whereas [00:35:55] endo rubber dam on don’t speak to me just, you know, no disrespect to my endo friends [00:36:00] by the way. That’s true. But you know, it’s it’s a bit more, although when I say surgical, [00:36:05] it’s a bit more, I’m going to do this to you and it’s going to be fine perio, [00:36:10] the psychology and the behaviour of the patients and that that winning [00:36:15] them round and getting them on board, that is something I love that I don’t know that I’d get from [00:36:20] Endo. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: More to it than that question, she said. By the time they get to me, behaviour [00:36:25] change has already been sorted. Is that not correct?

Payman Langroudi: We get a self-selecting [00:36:30] group of patients, but then we also get a group of patients who, um, [00:36:35] think they can throw money at a problem and don’t have to change their behaviour. Yeah. I mean, I’ve [00:36:40] treated people who high up in the Sunday Times rich list who just think they can just throw money [00:36:45] at me and make I’ll make everything go away. But their lifestyle is chaos. Mhm. Um. [00:36:50] It’s, you know, there is a huge amount of psychology and kid [00:36:55] ology, but you are right. We have as a, as a specialist, you, you’re, [00:37:00] you’re consult fee and even just travelling to see someone is a, is a [00:37:05] barrier. And so when a patient chooses to go over that obstacle, [00:37:10] you’ve already got a self-selecting patient. You’re already halfway there. So I don’t think that’s unreasonable. [00:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: And some periodontists then kind of move very seamlessly into [00:37:20] implants. You’re one of them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, not oh well, I did, I dabbled. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh you didn’t really.

Payman Langroudi: Did not love it. Oh, really didn’t excite me as much as the perio excited [00:37:30] me. Um, why do you know? I don’t know, because the surgery [00:37:35] is is not dissimilar. Yeah. Um, I, I honestly, um, [00:37:40] Payman I can’t can’t put my finger on it, but I didn’t love it. I didn’t hate [00:37:45] it. Uh, but I did have to make a decision because again, and this has come up on a few [00:37:50] of the podcasts I’ve listened to of yours, you do have to go all in with that stuff. Yeah. The days [00:37:55] of dabbling in implants have gone, you know, placing a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive field now, [00:38:00] isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It huge? It’s a speciality on its own. And everyone accepts that, even though it’s not a specialist list thing. Um, [00:38:05] we all know who the people who are fully invested in it are. Um, [00:38:10] and for me, there was a decision. Do I go all in and, or do I not? And [00:38:15] I worked in a, I work still in a practice now with a guy called Paul Swanson who big [00:38:20] implant placer. He was part of the FDP diploma and he just did it better than [00:38:25] me. They were. When I restored his implants, they restored them my own. My [00:38:30] hourly rate would drop when I did implant work because it wasn’t something I was doing all [00:38:35] the time. And my rate.

Payman Langroudi: Was. Is there something about, uh, the disposition [00:38:40] of an implant surgeon is more like an orthopaedic surgeon. Sort of. Get [00:38:45] in there. And the disposition of a surgeon is more like what? Like a vascular [00:38:50] surgeon. Like, what would you say?

Payman Langroudi: I think you know what I’m. I’m going to annoy [00:38:55] lots of my my my implant colleagues and friends because a lot of them are very plastic aware. [00:39:00] Um, but there is I mean, Paul wouldn’t wouldn’t criticise me for [00:39:05] saying it. Paul Swanson is all about the surgery, loves it, loves the the, the [00:39:10] stress that goes with it, the complex, the complexity of the cases and is happy to have [00:39:15] all of the restorative work done by somebody else. And and he’s, he’s in doing bits of plastics, [00:39:20] but other stuff he’ll send to me to do. Um, but [00:39:25] I think there is, there is definitely a cohort of almost orthopaedic style implant guys [00:39:30] with perio plastic skills without any shadow of a doubt.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, still not many women going [00:39:35] into Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I think the a D are doing well on that though. I think they [00:39:40] really are pushing it. You look at a few people over the last few years that we’ve had female ID presidents [00:39:45] and and I think they are very conscious of that and looking to support women [00:39:50] in Implantology. Again, that you ask yourself, why is it a testosterone [00:39:55] thing where it’s very male driven? Is it that because of that all or nothing nature [00:40:00] and family commitments, that it’s not something that people go into? I don’t know, but certainly [00:40:05] in the northwest we’ve got some very, very good. Shahzad Jeffreys, a superb Implantologist [00:40:10] who works in the northwest. She was mentored by Paul in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: I come across much more nowadays, [00:40:15] but still it’s it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a male dominated, male dominated. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Whereas Peri, I don’t think is or.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t think. I think historically dentistry was probably [00:40:25] male dominated, but that those days have been long gone. Yeah. Um and I think perio [00:40:30] probably yeah, we definitely, I can think about the, the cohort that’s just graduated from [00:40:35] King’s, I think in, in fact, I think they were all female. I think I may [00:40:40] be wrong in that, so I apologise if I’ve ostracised somebody. But yeah, the very [00:40:45] female heavy cohort. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to you a bit of [00:40:50] Peru.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: I know we were talking about, but but clinically I stopped practising years [00:40:55] ago, 2012, and I stopped learning about perio after [00:41:00] my house job. So years ago, what’s changed? I mean, the you [00:41:05] said you alluded to the more minimally invasive approach. Um, people [00:41:10] talk about things like laser perio, bony infill that [00:41:15] we used to think that was impossible before. Is it still a little, um, what’s, what’s, [00:41:20] what’s, what’s new other than classifications? Because you guys.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to change [00:41:25] that next.

Payman Langroudi: Week. Like you guys like changing classification.

Payman Langroudi: Because we need something new. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um what’s changed. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, the mouth body connection [00:41:35] thing were you, are you guys fully onto that? Yeah. Because because it’s not taught very well in undergrad. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think we’ve been on that for at least probably 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not really taught very well in undergrad, is [00:41:45] it? In undergrad, you’ve got this patient in front of you who’s got gum disease. You don’t you got to take a medical history. [00:41:50] If there’s diabetes in there, you kind of think, well, maybe that’s affecting. It is affecting [00:41:55] things, but not really making a connection in undergrad. So in [00:42:00] postgrad.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s I think it’s the awareness is significantly better, I think. You know, we’ve got so many [00:42:05] consensus groups where you’ve got organisations like the BSP or the EFP [00:42:10] working with endocrinology and cardiology and producing consensus reports. I think I think [00:42:15] it’s better. And that will filter down much better than it did when you and I were at university, because it wasn’t really [00:42:20] a thing then. It was. And you know, it’s a cheesy sentence, [00:42:25] isn’t it? But for too long, dentistry and the mouth has been outside of medicine, [00:42:30] outside of the body. And it’s mental to think that they’re not connected. Um, [00:42:35] and we’ve, you know, we’ve known since you and I were undergrads about the diabetes link, but we’ve now [00:42:40] got all of the arthritis links the Alzheimer’s, cardiovascular, [00:42:45] kidney disease. Lots of associations and, you know, very [00:42:50] plausible linkages. So I think it’s important. I’ve got to be honest, I don’t [00:42:55] I don’t labour that with patients. I don’t like to scaremonger patients with that because I always just think you’re treating period [00:43:00] to save your teeth. And as an adjunctive benefit is that your systemic health will be better. [00:43:05] But I don’t I try not to sort of go down the floss or die route with my patients. [00:43:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I get it, I get it, but but but the notion that you’ve now suddenly got a period [00:43:15] of period breakdown, is there something going on systemically that [00:43:20] we don’t know about? Yeah. Like like a period referral to a GDP, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Gmp [00:43:25] that’s not happening. And the, the, I think the medical awareness is [00:43:30] bad. I think we as a profession are reasonably good at knowing about this stuff. I [00:43:35] had a, a diabetic specialist nurse referred to me for perio treatment, [00:43:40] and I didn’t know she was a diabetic specialist nurse. And we talked about the major risk factors [00:43:45] smoking, unstable diabetes, stress. Um, and she said diabetes. [00:43:50] What? What do you mean? No way. I was like, you’re. And then so when I told her, she was like, where [00:43:55] have you read that? And I said, I said, why are you asking that?

Payman Langroudi: She said recently, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the last, [00:44:00] uh, the other side of Christmas. And she said, where have you read that? I said, well, [00:44:05] we’ve known about it for 30, 40 years. We’ve got international consensus. [00:44:10] Why? I said, why are you asking that? She said, well, I’m a diabetic nurse. I’ve never heard of it. Wow. [00:44:15] That’s a massive problem.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing. I mean, as a profession, we didn’t get through [00:44:20] to the public that the frequency of sugar. Yeah. It’s [00:44:25] interesting. We never got that through. But everyone knows sugar. Yeah, but no one knows that frequency [00:44:30] of sugar. Yeah. But this bit of information. My goodness me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s frightening.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:44:35] really it really bad. It is. It’s pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, to be fair to people like Ian [00:44:40] Chappell, he’s written articles in editorials in The Lancet to try and make [00:44:45] people aware. We’ve had a few initiatives as part. I’m part of the British society. Um, [00:44:50] we’ve had a few initiatives where we try and push and. But you, [00:44:55] you know, your GP is so busy. Diabetes [00:45:00] is one disease that they have to look for. You can’t expect them to be on top of everything, especially what they [00:45:05] would see as maybe a, a nuanced small area. But we know it’s huge. We know, [00:45:10] you know, we know that if you stabilise perio, it’s the it’s the equivalent of the patient having one [00:45:15] additional drug. Wow. That’s the power of stabilising perio. So when you explain [00:45:20] that to a GP and they think, well, blimey, actually, you know, think about the cost impact on the health service [00:45:25] of that additional drug, not to mention the complexities of polypharmacy of multiple medications [00:45:30] just by switching off their perio inflammation. It’s like them having another [00:45:35] drug, not only, but you’ve also switched off other inflammation elsewhere. Um, we do [00:45:40] need to do a better job of educating other professions. Um, but we’re working on [00:45:45] it a bit slow. And like I say, they have other things that where everyone wants a slice of them and it’s [00:45:50] difficult. It’s difficult for a general dentist to stay on top of all aspects of everything. So the same [00:45:55] goes for our GPS, of course.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else has changed? I mean, you must have had [00:46:00] in your career things come and go. I remember when I was a young dentist putting [00:46:05] putting little antibiotic. What was that called? Periochip.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Periochip. And putting dentomycin. [00:46:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentomycin. Yeah, I used to charge extra for that. It was like a, it was like a money maker for me. [00:46:15] I was like, oh, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Um.

Payman Langroudi: That’s definitely changed.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff [00:46:20] is just stuff. Stuff comes along that claims to solve everything and then not much of it [00:46:25] does. I worry though, yeah, that let’s imagine I come up with a breakthrough. Yeah, [00:46:30] it’d be 30 years before I convinced Periodontists. [00:46:35] Because you guys are so fully like like like think that no, [00:46:40] it’s all the same problem and you’ve been lied to so many times, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s [00:46:45] fair. I think, um, I mean, you ask what’s changed? Yeah. [00:46:50] The you just the example you gave of the local delivery systems [00:46:55] that went with the thinking at the time of how we understood the disease worked so late, late, [00:47:00] early, late 80s, early 90s, all the socransky stuff. Um, and so we were [00:47:05] almost treating it like an infection and the periopathogens. So that’s where all the antibiotics [00:47:10] came from. Um, and then we realised that actually not, that’s not quite specifically [00:47:15] how these things work. And so I think our treatments develop as we in [00:47:20] every medical speciality, as we understand more, we are definitely less chemically [00:47:25] driven than we used to be. Antibiotics, antiseptics.

Payman Langroudi: Is it not a role for systemic antibiotics. [00:47:30] In some situations.

Payman Langroudi: There is without any.

Payman Langroudi: Situation.

Payman Langroudi: Young patients with what you [00:47:35] and I would have called aggressive periodontitis. That is certainly an indication. There are some more [00:47:40] controversial indications. Um some people will advocate using them in [00:47:45] long standing non-responding chronic periodontitis. I’m using [00:47:50] old definitions now, but some people.

Payman Langroudi: Did it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I’m here for you, [00:47:55] Payman. Um, no, but we sort of. That’s quite controversial [00:48:00] whether you use them or not. Uh, I think certainly in general practice, the BSP have been very clear. If you’re thinking [00:48:05] of writing a prescription for a patient, you should really write a referral. They don’t want prescriptions [00:48:10] written for perio in general practice because it’s inappropriate. Those patients really need to be managed [00:48:15] at a specialist level. And a lot of the stuff that gets sent to me where it’s suspected they might [00:48:20] need something else, they just need treatment done, done better, or the patient needs to have their bar [00:48:25] raised a bit or there’s something being missed. So we we really do restrict [00:48:30] and limit them. But my I work in a practice where we’re so busy. I’ve got a couple of dentists [00:48:35] with special interests who work with me. So my we triage the patients. [00:48:40] I tend to see most of the youngsters. I tend to see most of the mucogingival, most [00:48:45] of the failing implant stuff. Um, and because my patient base is skewed towards that younger, [00:48:50] more aggressive style periodontitis, I will write prescriptions fairly frequently for [00:48:55] perio. But my my day list is not normal. Um, [00:49:00] so there’s a role, but yeah, it’s still very, very limited. And most people shouldn’t need them to be able to get on top of [00:49:05] their disease. Um, what has changed? Regenerative stuff [00:49:10] is getting more predictable. So growing bone back in vertical bone defects that we’re [00:49:15] still using a lot of the same materials, but how we use them has changed. Um, you know, your end [00:49:20] gains, your bio-oss and bio guides. I think we’re just, we’re more, more, um. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Refined.

Payman Langroudi: With slicker at using them. We know why things work and when to use which product, when. [00:49:30] Um, I think we’ve talked about plastics that is, that’s [00:49:35] just constantly evolving. And like you said, it’s getting better. You look at the Italians [00:49:40] and probably the Germans who just drive that that world.

Payman Langroudi: Is it driven by cosmetics?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:49:45] plastics very much. That is much less about health.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:49:50] not it’s not like is it predictable that you can reduce sensitivity with plastics or not? Is it not [00:49:55] predictable?

Payman Langroudi: I would hate to sell that as a primary outcome because if I if I do [00:50:00] a root coverage on, let’s say, a tooth that’s got eight millimetres of recession and [00:50:05] I cover seven millimetres of it, that’s a good outcome.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But if that one millimetre [00:50:10] has still got dentine hypersensitivity, I’ve failed. I would, I would never do that. I would never [00:50:15] sell it. And ultimately if your problem is sensitivity. Colgate Pro relief or [00:50:20] you know, some sort of desensitising toothpaste would be my go to. Um. A secondary [00:50:25] benefit of covering up roots is usually that you reduce sensitivity. But I’m always [00:50:30] I do hear people selling it. You’ve got to be so confident you are going to achieve 100%. And [00:50:35] whilst we’d like to think we are, like we’ve already said, soft tissue doesn’t [00:50:40] always do as it’s sold. So, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think and when you’re referred [00:50:45] a patient by someone planning to do a big whatever it is, [00:50:50] whether it’s a restorative plan or an implant plan or whatever, that [00:50:55] people, patients don’t seem to sort of understand that the period [00:51:00] like, you know, people think how much is an implant? Yeah. And, and the nuance [00:51:05] of explaining to that patient, like, you know, the implant that looks like a tooth or an implant doesn’t look like a tooth. Is [00:51:10] that something that’s left to you by the referral? Oh, without a doubt. Is that one of your jobs?

Payman Langroudi: I think without a doubt. [00:51:15] And I think one of the hardest things, I think as a general dentist or hygienist therapist [00:51:20] is getting patients to understand why they need to go see the specialist. You know the common. I get asked all [00:51:25] the time. What do I say when a patient says, what are they going to do that you can’t do? Because they just think we’re [00:51:30] just, you know, going to do more of the same, but charge them more. Yeah. Um, sometimes we [00:51:35] are, sometimes we’re going to do more of the same, but do it better or do it differently or elevate the status of the patient. [00:51:40] But I think most of the time it is. But you’re so right. People will pay. People will [00:51:45] pay £900 for a specialist endo because it gets them out of pain. People [00:51:50] will pay £3,000 for an implant because the tooth is no longer there and they want something fixed, but [00:51:55] they’ve got a disease that isn’t painful and they don’t perceive there to be a problem. And why should [00:52:00] they pay a few thousand pounds to stabilise my perio? And there is the education phase [00:52:05] of that is huge. Um, I remember listening to again, Philip Green, [00:52:10] I’ve mentioned him already when he was BSP president quite a long time ago now. He [00:52:15] was asked the question, what would you do to make Peri make people take Perrier [00:52:20] more seriously. And his answer was, I’d make it painful. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:52:25] a good point.

Payman Langroudi: If if if you know because because it’s inflammation. If Perry was painful, your [00:52:30] patients would be there knocking on the door going, get this sorted. The fact that it’s this silent disease, [00:52:35] they don’t know it’s happening until it’s too late. Um, is a problem. Um, and then, you [00:52:40] know, we’re having to educate them as to why they’ve got to do all this behaviour change, why they’ve got to change their lifestyle, [00:52:45] why we’ve got to do all these treatments. It is, uh, a sales pitch it, [00:52:50] but selling health ultimately. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:52:55] think that the difference between what would you say good periodontist, [00:53:00] great periodontist. What’s the difference?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I think [00:53:05] there’s probably two definitions. There’s there’s great hands and some people are just gifted. [00:53:10] Um, again I’ve mentioned Rob, although he’s not periodontist I would, [00:53:15] he’s got the skills of, of any of the best presidents in the, in the country, if not the world. Um. [00:53:20] I think communication, being able to, you know, [00:53:25] you know, yourself and one of our, one of the challenges of our job is, [00:53:30] is the management of the individual, the dentistry relatively simple, even the complex [00:53:35] stuff when you, when you’re doing it all the time, it’s relatively simple. It’s managing the patient who’s attached to that dentistry. [00:53:40] Um, and so I think communication is just everything because we’re [00:53:45] often sent patients who are quite late presenting and we’re often having to give [00:53:50] difficult news and then talk to them about difficult conversations about where they go next. And so [00:53:55] I would say, and I said it before, you’ve got to like people and you’ve got to be good with [00:54:00] people, and you’ve got to be able to work with all of those personality types. And I [00:54:05] think empathy, empathy, and dentistry full stop, is.

Payman Langroudi: Humanity of that moment, right? When you’re telling someone [00:54:10] he’s got to lose lots of teeth. Yeah, it’s an important point. It’s a funny man with [00:54:15] the enlightened. We talk about or ask people whether they want teeth whitening. [00:54:20] Yeah. And then a lot of them worry about that, right? They don’t want to embarrass their patient. They don’t want to [00:54:25] annoy them. And I tell them, look, do you know how embarrassing it is to be told [00:54:30] you’re not brushing your teeth properly? Yeah. Like by someone younger than you? Yeah. You know, if I, if I [00:54:35] was a I am a 50 year old guy and some 28 year old hygienist says you’re [00:54:40] not brushing your teeth properly. It’s massively embarrassing. Yeah. Massively embarrassing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also a [00:54:45] barrier to behaviour change. What comes next?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That patient thinks that you think that they’re dirty. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s it’s such a we’re so in it that we don’t [00:54:55] see that. Right. But it’s a really important nuance.

Payman Langroudi: We talk about that a lot in our [00:55:00] courses. Yeah, we really do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a there’s a really good video [00:55:05] that was put out by the, um, European Federation of Periodontology a few years ago called The Sand [00:55:10] of Periodontitis. And they interviewed three patients. And in the first scene they [00:55:15] talk to a lady called Angela. Um, and they ask her how she felt about her diagnosis and she talked [00:55:20] about, um, she felt ashamed. She felt that she couldn’t talk about it to her friends. [00:55:25] She talks about, um, she could talk about her cancer diagnosis to her friends, but not her diagnosis [00:55:30] because she was embarrassed because it was her fault, because she was dirty. And I, we [00:55:35] play that on every single course that I run to remind people, because we do get into a conveyor [00:55:40] belt of another patient, another disease, another patient, just it’s it’s all day, every day. [00:55:45] Just we’re used to just dealing with this stuff and we process people in and out. And I say to [00:55:50] my delegates, when you diagnose perio, patients are going to have a. Some patients are going [00:55:55] to have a bit of a moment. They’re going to think that you think they’re dirty, they’re going to have a shameful, God, this [00:56:00] is all my fault. And you have to remember that human side of this disease. It’s a [00:56:05] bit different to you’ve got a hole that needs filling. Perio has a bit of stigma attached to it. [00:56:10] And while sometimes that stigma is appropriate because a lot of the time there is lifestyle and [00:56:15] behaviour. There’s also all the other stuff that goes with it, you know, genetics and stress [00:56:20] and, you know, medical conditions. It’s not as simple as you’ve not cleaned your teeth properly. And we have to just, [00:56:25] we have to work with patients to make them understand that and downregulate that shame. It’s really important. [00:56:30] I mean, really important.

Payman Langroudi: One thing that comes to mind is you must be at [00:56:35] the stage you’re at, you must be in touch with the manufacturers, right? The toothpaste [00:56:40] manufacturers, the toothbrush manufacturers, some of the biggest companies in the world. Yeah. [00:56:45] I mean, you know, we think of our biggest companies in dentistry might be align [00:56:50] and Henry Schein, but Colgate and GSK.

Payman Langroudi: And. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oral-b, they are ten times the size of of those companies. [00:57:00] So those massive budgets and on our screens all the time, there must be an element [00:57:05] of education that needs to happen from them. And it’s a weird thing. Yeah. Because [00:57:10] you know, the guy selling this microphone isn’t. We’re not asking him to educate anyone. Yeah. You know, you might do [00:57:15] if you’re into it, you might say, oh, conversations are important or whatever, but are you I [00:57:20] mean, you’re in touch with these guys, right? You must be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you personally, I work with some [00:57:25] of them in terms of lectures, lecture opportunities. Um, and I think through, through some [00:57:30] of the work I do with the BSP, we work with some of these organisations. Um, I [00:57:35] think, I think we’d like to think that they could do [00:57:40] a bit more. I think some of the companies, what you don’t always see behind the scenes, um, certainly [00:57:45] people like GSK, Haleon. Um. Johnson [00:57:50] and Johnson, they, they support the BSP with sort of like non restricted [00:57:55] grants. So they don’t, they don’t get anything back, but they support the work that we do and the promotion. So that [00:58:00] is a good thing. But they’re relying on us to do the physical promotion there. I think I would love to see [00:58:05] some of these companies do more publicly because you’re [00:58:10] right. You know, the the BSP or Ian Dunn is never going to put an advert in between Coronation [00:58:15] Street and the adverts because it’s just too big a campaign.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, from their perspective, I say, well, [00:58:20] you know, we’re paying millions for those ads, so screw you.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a missed opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:58:25] friend was playing golf with the CEO of Colgate okay, in the US. And [00:58:30] um, you know what he said? He said um Colgate is in more households [00:58:35] than any other product in the world.

Payman Langroudi: I can believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So something like 65% [00:58:40] of all global households have Colgate Palmolive product [00:58:45] in them. And the way he, he was talking to him was, well, you know, like [00:58:50] almost like in a conservative way, they’ve won. So they just want to keep everything the same. Yeah, [00:58:55] yeah, I get that, I get that. But but, you know, if you’ve got access to 65% [00:59:00] of households in the world.

Payman Langroudi: You’d like to think there. [00:59:05]

Payman Langroudi: Should be a.

Payman Langroudi: Big corporate responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: That’s sort of what you’re asking me. Yeah. And [00:59:10] I would like to think that that there was a bit more of that. I think at the end of the day, a [00:59:15] lot of the especially I mean, you’ve mentioned sort of the toothpaste mouthwashes. That’s almost farmer type [00:59:20] stuff. Yeah. And they are in sales. And we have to remember that, don’t we? Yeah. But I do think [00:59:25] I do think they could do more. Um, there’s no two ways about it. I’d love to see them take [00:59:30] a slightly more bigger picture view because I don’t think they’d sell any less product.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:59:35] And the other thing is, I used to think when I used to think about this when I was younger, I used [00:59:40] to think, well, the end of the day it’s just teeth. But then when even today, [00:59:45] today, right now, the biggest cause of GA in children is teeth. It’s [00:59:50] amazing. 2026. That’s the case.

Payman Langroudi: Alder hey and Liverpool spend £1 [00:59:55] million a year on paediatric GA extractions. £1 million [01:00:00] a year.

Payman Langroudi: I thought it’d be more than that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s devastating. That’s probably an eight year old figure.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, it’s probably [01:00:05] more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And they probably could do it. They probably just can’t get through anymore. Um. It’s huge. [01:00:10] And that’s just one city. You know, that’s going to be that’s going to you multiply that by, you know, your [01:00:15] Manchester’s your Birmingham’s. They’ve all got bigger populations.

Payman Langroudi: In a preventable disease. That’s that’s the key point. Right. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: Key point.

Payman Langroudi: Um what grinds your gears about [01:00:25] dentistry. The market. Let’s let’s let’s start [01:00:30] let’s start before you worry yourself about. No, no. Let’s start with with relation to [01:00:35] in relation to perio. Like what do most generalists not know about perio that they really [01:00:40] should.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t say it’s that they’re not know I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Well not acting [01:00:45] whatever.

Payman Langroudi: What people don’t remember is actually the power [01:00:50] that the patient has to control the disease. I think we’re so ingrained as [01:00:55] a profession that our only value is perceived when we’re physically doing something to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Treatment. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: I’m either diagnosing or I’m scaling, or I’m drilling or I’m extracting. And when you’re doing [01:01:05] something, that’s my value and I can charge you for that. And I think we forget and [01:01:10] the the S3 period guidelines that came out a few years ago have changed the way we’re [01:01:15] trying to get people to think about this, telling the patient, do more, but physically, properly [01:01:20] sitting with them and educating them on oral hygiene and not just paying lip [01:01:25] service that can produce similar clinical outcomes to you or I do in a clinical [01:01:30] intervention. And if patients, if you’re working in an environment where patients can’t afford expensive care, [01:01:35] educating them to help themselves is the bit that we fail on. We really [01:01:40] do fail on that. Um, I also see with some dentists, [01:01:45] some of my referrers, they don’t always believe in perio that it [01:01:50] actually works. Now, if you believe that, then you’re right, it won’t work. But [01:01:55] I’ve had I had a referral from me a couple of weeks ago, and it was a strange phone call because [01:02:00] he said, I just needed to ring you to see What was it you did that achieved such an amazing result? And [01:02:05] I couldn’t remember the patient. So I had to go open the computer up and have a look and and all [01:02:10] we’d done was we’d actually treated the case from start to finish. Non-surgically. But the case [01:02:15] was a disaster when he walked in.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, is that you physically.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:02:20] depends on the patient. So we I have some great hygienists that I work with. So I, [01:02:25] we do a lot of, um, we give a lot of that to the hygiene team. There [01:02:30] are certain patients when I’m treating youngsters with aggressive disease and I’m prescribing antibiotics, [01:02:35] I will often do that myself. Um we have some patients who will say, you know, I’ve seen a hygienist [01:02:40] before in other practice, I want to see you. Um, and I explain that it will be more cost [01:02:45] effective and equally just as good if they see one of our hygiene team and some people say, no, no, I’m here [01:02:50] now. You’re the guy who I’m putting my trust in. And so they, they pay for me to do that work. And I [01:02:55] don’t I don’t dislike that work. It was interesting. I listen to Payman and she said [01:03:00] she couldn’t wait to get rid of that and just wants to do surgery. But but I also think that also comes with that stage [01:03:05] of career where, you know, I’ve trained to be special. So I want to do special stuff all the time. [01:03:10] I really don’t mind doing the scope of practice that is required for the patient that’s in front of [01:03:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: But the value add of you doing it with the hygienist. Do you think it’s anatomy? [01:03:20] Like literally that’s what it is. You’re literally kind of more aware of [01:03:25] what needs.

Payman Langroudi: I think in terms of non surgical outcomes, the. [01:03:30] There’s two hygienists in our team that do a lot of my work for me because I work [01:03:35] in a mixed practice. As in I say mixed. It’s all private, but it’s general and specialist. So um, [01:03:40] we have quite a big team, 17 surgeries. It’s a beast of a practice. Beast of a. [01:03:45]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that called?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Rose Lane dental practice. Uh where’s.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Liverpool. Liverpool. South. [01:03:50] Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: South towards down the airport end. Yeah. Um. Now I know [01:03:55] that if Helen or Yvonne do a case for me that they’ll get the same outcomes [01:04:00] because they think like I do. They treat the same same treatment philosophy. They will. So they’ll get [01:04:05] great outcomes as well. Um, some patients just yeah, the added value [01:04:10] of I’m a bit greyer, I’m a bit older. I’ve got that badge that says I’m a specialist. [01:04:15] I’m charging a bit more for that. Does add value to some patients. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:20] yeah, I don’t mind doing those bits myself, but I think going back to the question you were saying, [01:04:25] we seem to have this thing where our only value is when we physically do something. And [01:04:30] actually in perio and also, I mean, if you boil it down to everything, the prevention [01:04:35] in all dentistry comes down to communication, but we’re not getting paid to do it. So we don’t do it. Um, [01:04:40] that grinds my gears, I suppose a bit because that was the, you know, I [01:04:45] think we could, we could achieve so much more for so less input if [01:04:50] we really did have a true preventative model. Um, it’s one of the [01:04:55] things in dentistry that grind grammar.

Payman Langroudi: School and tell me a few others. You alluded to the social media [01:05:00] thing.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mind social media. We’ve got to accept it’s it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, a [01:05:05] modern beast. It’s how people communicate. I’ve got grown up. I’ve got my, my youngest daughter’s [01:05:10] 19 at the weekend, my eldest, 23. So they’re, they’re in that world. And that’s how they live their lives. So [01:05:15] I understand how we have to operate in there. Um, and I think [01:05:20] social media has been brilliant from a resource point of view for us being connected. Yeah. Uh, [01:05:25] I also think that drives, um, anxiety amongst the profession. They [01:05:30] sort of the, the comparison envy that people think, oh, I’m not, I’m not successful because I’m not, [01:05:35] you know, not that person. I’ve not done that. So I think that, that annoys me because I don’t think a lot of that is real. [01:05:40] Um, I think some of the stuff that I see on social media, you [01:05:45] know, if my principal said to me, look, we’re going to do a TikTok video or we’re going to do some [01:05:50] crazy dancing reception, I’m gone. I’m out of that practice. I’m leaving because [01:05:55] that’s just not for me. Um, and that I just think sometimes is a bit demeaning, but equally, I understand [01:06:00] that that’s the market that some people are appealing to, and that’s not going to be so that what I said [01:06:05] that grinds my gears. Probably not. I just scroll past it and let it wash over me. Um, I [01:06:10] would, you know, I genuinely would love to see CPD better [01:06:15] regulated than it is. Um, I feel like when we qualified, [01:06:20] you would look around the country and you, you knew who the good guys were, you knew who. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: Now there’s so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s just volume. And I’m not convinced [01:06:30] that all of that volume is as good as it could be. Um, you know, I really enjoyed listening to Nick Sethi’s [01:06:35] podcast the other week and what the work that they do. I know Nick through tubules, great [01:06:40] guy, uh, good mates with Riaz. We worked at Liverpool in the hospital together. You know, there [01:06:45] are people who are doing great stuff. I’m down here teaching with monarch for tomorrow, people who are [01:06:50] doing high level really well. Cpd type stuff, but then [01:06:55] I just see some people who just churning out quick fix short but but [01:07:00] dressed up diplomas and I sort of wonder just how much can you learn [01:07:05] in that short space of time? I’ve got no problem with short courses, but don’t dress it up as [01:07:10] anything more than a short course. It’s, you know, a five day course is not a diploma. Um, [01:07:15] and I think the.

Payman Langroudi: Diploma kind of is whatever you want to call it, right. It’s a funny thing. [01:07:20] I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Nowadays. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think there was a time though, you know, when a certificate was [01:07:25] a year course, a diploma was a two year course. Masters was a third year course.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Payman Langroudi: And I think so. [01:07:30] It means very different things to different generations. Um and I do [01:07:35] worry that.

Payman Langroudi: But what else? What else should go on. I’ll tell you some of mine. [01:07:40] Um, I don’t like, uh, people who call themselves [01:07:45] professor when, when they’re not, when they’re not professor. I don’t like that. Um, [01:07:50] Because it’s a funny thing. It’s a it’s a foreign university thing. Often, [01:07:55] I think like if you’re, if you’re teaching a university in France, Italy, Spain, or [01:08:00] many places, America, all teachers in university are called. Professor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:08:05] But here it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Associate professor.

Payman Langroudi: The top guy in the department. So [01:08:10] to use it here just seems so, so disingenuous. Yeah. I think that’s that’s not, not [01:08:15] unreasonable.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about awards? I bet you don’t like awards. Do you like awards? [01:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: No, I really don’t like awards.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on, go on. Articulate what you don’t like. Because the younger [01:08:25] generation can’t even understand it. And I have to. I have to get them to to tell me what they think [01:08:30] it is. What is it for you? The crux of awards that you don’t like?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:35] I don’t like the idea that, you know, there can be 7 or 8 best young dentists [01:08:40] this and 12 best old dentists that. And because even [01:08:45] though I’m good at what I do, I’m, I am I the best? How do you measure that [01:08:50] best? And does that best give you an advantage? When do you deserve that advantage? [01:08:55] I just I find that sort of I find it all a little bit crass, not professional.

Payman Langroudi: Right back to [01:09:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: Professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: That also goes back to me being old. If I’m being, you know, and [01:09:05] just probably, you know, grey old grumpy, um, it’s [01:09:10] just not what we did. And I just find it all.

Payman Langroudi: At the, at [01:09:15] the same time. Do you recognise what I’m saying about like Ken? Ken Finley is a good, good [01:09:20] friend of mine and I remember when they started, it was them, it was, it was FMC that [01:09:25] really pushed all of this awards, uh, top 50 at the time [01:09:30] you had the BJ that wasn’t you weren’t allowed to put a photograph or do you [01:09:35] remember you couldn’t even put any image in a BJ article? Maybe a graph. [01:09:40] Yeah, but nothing else. That’s where we were at. And Ken comes along and [01:09:45] says, well, let me do the sun And it was a good thing, you know, like it opened [01:09:50] up.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise, could we? When we first.

Payman Langroudi: Arrived.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise. And then that changed. And that was [01:09:55] the beginning of this opening up of, you know, the marketing and everything that we’ve now got. Um, [01:10:00] I’ve got to be honest, I don’t, I don’t, I would never think less [01:10:05] of somebody who does the awards. And I know people who are part of that industry. And [01:10:10] if you’re going to enter the awards, you are practising to a very high standard because [01:10:15] you have to to be.

Payman Langroudi: Approved to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve photographed your work, you’ve shown good [01:10:20] thinking. So, you know, there was elements of that. I think my validation [01:10:25] would come from other places. So you just listen to Nick talk and you [01:10:30] talk about Bard, you know, and you’ve got like Bard accreditation. And you know, if you, [01:10:35] if you’re accredited by Bard, you know, your stuff, you are the bee’s [01:10:40] knees, you know, and even the best people who are going through that process will be stood there [01:10:45] nervous at the front. You know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Finley Sutton or whether you’re you know, you’re going to be [01:10:50] grilled.

Payman Langroudi: By everyone on it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going to be. And and you’ll know your stuff and you’re [01:10:55] going, I’m going to get through this. But that to me is sort of. That’s the sort of validation [01:11:00] I would seek or I want someone to say to, you know, that, you know, someone I respect, like, [01:11:05] I don’t know, like an academic like Ian Chappell or somebody go, yeah, that Ian Dunn’s a good guy. That’s sort [01:11:10] of what I that that to me would be better than any piece of plastic that is voted, you know, that I’ve entered and [01:11:15] been, you know, um, do I think less of people for doing that? No, not at all. I [01:11:20] think if you abuse that and, you know, and actually start to believe that you are [01:11:25] better, that’s probably a bit of an issue.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, people use it in their marketing, don’t they? So do you find [01:11:30] that distasteful?

Payman Langroudi: Not necessarily distasteful. I think if you’ve done it, it’s like I say, it [01:11:35] shows a commitment to, to, to a high standard because [01:11:40] I’ve yet to see any of those winning cases where I thought, God, that’s rubbish that you are. [01:11:45] You are working at a high level if you’ve won those awards.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess the funny thing, I’m no longer in [01:11:50] it, right? So it doesn’t bother me at all. But I can imagine if [01:11:55] I was working in Liverpool and some dude won [01:12:00] Best Dentist Liverpool. Yeah. And if I was really good at dentistry, by the way, if I was really good at dentistry [01:12:05] and some dude wins best dentist Liverpool and I’ve not even applied, [01:12:10] I can imagine how that might grind my gears. Yeah, I can see it. I can see it. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: I work with, um, I work with a specialist prosthodontist guy called Steve Barber, one [01:12:20] of the best dentists I’ve ever worked with. I mean, his work is just second to none. You’ve never [01:12:25] heard of him because he’s so under the radar. Um, and I see people [01:12:30] winning awards locally and, and yeah, that works okay. It’s good. It’s not as good as Steve’s. It’s [01:12:35] just, you know. And do I feel sorry for him? No, because he’s busy. People who [01:12:40] refer to him know he’s great. There was a time. There was definitely a time. [01:12:45] And you’ll have seen me on social media do it where I was like I was. I felt like the police. I wanted to [01:12:50] argue with everyone. And you’re wrong.

Payman Langroudi: The Facebook.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, social media platforms. [01:12:55] And, you know, and I’m at the point now where I sort of think I can only treat who’s in front [01:13:00] of me. I can only teach who turns up to my courses and I can’t control anything [01:13:05] else. And so why should I bother? And maybe I’m maturing. Maybe I’m getting [01:13:10] more laid back. But you know, I chat to people like you. He’s a good friend of yours, Drew Shah. [01:13:15] I know Drew’s not a fan of that sort of that sort of. Oh, he hates it with [01:13:20] a passion. I think him and I are equally paralleled in grumpiness when it comes to [01:13:25] comes to those things. So um, but yeah, we see we. It [01:13:30] goes back to that comparison envy and the comparison. That same [01:13:35] comparison is a thief of joy. One of my favourite expressions. And I see people who I [01:13:40] mentioned before, people who come and spend days with me and they’re saying to me, you know, I’m [01:13:45] looking after my patients and I care, and I spend too much time on this, and I’m not earning very much money that and [01:13:50] I’m not winning awards and I’m not driving a Ferrari and I’m and I’m saying, yeah, but you’ve just [01:13:55] told me that you’re looking after your patients and you’re doing good work and you’re only three years qualified, relaxed, [01:14:00] just relax. You’re doing all the right things. All that will come if you keep [01:14:05] doing the right thing. I suppose that side of the awards and that I’m [01:14:10] not there and I’m, I’m not successful until I’m that I think people [01:14:15] need to look at how they measure success because success could be you could be going work in community [01:14:20] dentistry on a salary. And you could be treating all that special care type patient group [01:14:25] that that success, if that’s what you love and you’re doing a great service, don’t [01:14:30] measure success in bank balances or cars or, you know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Success [01:14:35] could be working two days a week and taking the kids to school the other three days, you know, like. [01:14:40]

Payman Langroudi: Spending.

Payman Langroudi: Your life, that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re walking the hills in the Lake District and, you know, having to schlep into work and [01:14:45] do those two days so you can have the five days off. You’ve got to measure, you’ve got to decide what success looks like [01:14:50] for you and not measure it by other people’s yardsticks. It’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:14:55] that said, you’re one of the more kind of famous guys [01:15:00] about between between generalists. [01:15:05] Right?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: General dentists up north, who can we think of? Who are the guys? [01:15:10] You. I mean, maybe it’s because of teaching. Yeah. Yeah, it probably is because of.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching probably.

Payman Langroudi: Is. Um, and [01:15:15] if you’re going to be a teacher, you’re going to have to tell your story and people need to come and come and come on your course [01:15:20] and all of that. Yeah. Um, do you find that your, it doesn’t come naturally to you [01:15:25] sort of self promotion and whatever it takes to fill these courses, what does it take to fill these [01:15:30] courses? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s got really difficult. The last few years has become increasingly difficult. [01:15:35] Yeah. I think as as undergraduates, I was chatting to a couple of foundation the other [01:15:40] day and they were saying how many of their lectures were delivered via video, pre-recorded on [01:15:45] demand. So they’re not even understanding the value of face to face teaching at their undergraduate [01:15:50] level. So trying to get them to come on courses and part with money is, is increasingly [01:15:55] difficult. Um, I do find self promotion difficult. I, [01:16:00] my, my former self promotion is just being out there and being available to people. I, [01:16:05] I’ve been on the train coming down here today. I’ve answered five Facebook private messages from people [01:16:10] who don’t know me and I’ve never met them before, not even been on my courses. Hi. Can I ask you a [01:16:15] question? And my answer is always yes. I’ll answer that question when I get a minute. I’ll answer it. And [01:16:20] I always put myself out there on social media platforms as someone who’s knowledgeable and approachable. That’s [01:16:25] my promotion. But I’m not going to stand there going, I’m the biggest. I’m the best, maybe to my detriment. [01:16:30] Um.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I really like about your content or Intensol was um, [01:16:35] the way you the, the way you talk about hygienists [01:16:40] and therapists as a, as equals. Um, and [01:16:45] that’s, I think it’s such an important thing. Yeah. Because, you know, Perry is a team sport. [01:16:50] Yeah. And dentistry’s a team sport.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And too many practices [01:16:55] have too much hierarchy going through them.

Payman Langroudi: The profession has too much hierarchy going through it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:00] But practices.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. You know, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about practice is, you know, there’s a king of that castle and [01:17:05] then too many the stories you hear from hygienists. Yeah. Because [01:17:10] they’re only like one day here, one day there, they’re not treated as staff members. And I [01:17:15] just remember your the way you write about hygienists and therapists. Yeah. [01:17:20] It’s with a sort of respect that you don’t often see.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:25] there’s multiple streams to that though, because, well, I want to believe it, you [01:17:30] know, and there are good dentists and bad dentist. There are good hygienists and bad hygienists and therapists [01:17:35] and you. So and I’ve been lucky enough to work with some great hygienists, um, who’ve [01:17:40] made me look very good. Um, let’s be honest. You they’ve made me [01:17:45] look very, very good. Um, so some patients will come in, see me for a consult, go to one [01:17:50] of the hygiene team, come back to me and I discharge them because they’re fixed and I get [01:17:55] all the glory and they’ve done all the hard work. So it would [01:18:00] be disingenuous of me not to acknowledge that and also not to stand up for that. [01:18:05] Um, you have to look at, you know, most let’s, let’s [01:18:10] just say the, I don’t know whether what’s true about this, but let’s say the average size of practices for [01:18:15] surgeries, let’s say there’ll be three dentist surgeries and one hygienist surgery. And then if [01:18:20] you go to the staff room, the dentist won’t be in there half the time. And the dentists are all together having their butties, [01:18:25] and then the nurses will all be in the staff room and the hygienist is in this no man’s.

Payman Langroudi: Land isolated role. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Really isolated and that’s where their organisations are really helpful. The best. And [01:18:35] BADT to to give them that that outlet. Um but I think, [01:18:40] you know, with I don’t know whether, you know, I, I’m admin, one of the biggest hygienists and [01:18:45] therapist forums on Facebook for the UK. Um, and it’s just [01:18:50] a release valve for them to know.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m reading the stories.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not that their [01:18:55] experiences are not unique and it’s a bit like dentists for dentists for us, you know, that it’s [01:19:00] somewhere where you can go and speak and know that there’s going to be support, know that you’re not alone. And [01:19:05] so for me, you know, I’ve been very lucky now to get myself into a position where, [01:19:10] as you say, people know who I am. And through my work with the BSP and the [01:19:15] teaching and all the different things, I sort of owe it to them to support them because [01:19:20] that, yeah, there are a lot of Periodontists one, two [01:19:25] dentists don’t want to do perio per se. So three give it to the people who do want [01:19:30] to do it and are pretty good at it. And don’t don’t treat them as a second class citizen. [01:19:35] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the way it’s looking. Therapists are going to be a major part of the future. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Huge. I listened to Amber Alpin’s podcast. Amazing, [01:19:45] brilliant. What a great setup.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s loads of them in the northwest. We’ve got a handful [01:19:50] of hygiene and therapy owned and LED practices. And why [01:19:55] not? They’re making a great go of it. They’re doing great work. There’s a lady on the [01:20:00] Wirral, Jules Fisher, who runs at the Hygienist Only Centre and is [01:20:05] one of my best referrers. You know, she she takes patients as far as they can and then she knows when to [01:20:10] pass them on. And it’s a great model and the patients get great care. Yeah. Um, we [01:20:15] just, we’ve got to get rid of this protectionism element because there’s, we’re not going to run [01:20:20] out of work.

Payman Langroudi: One of the biggest uses is owned by a nurse ex nurse. [01:20:25] Okay. Um I want to get on to Liverpool because it’s such an [01:20:30] interesting town. Um, again, enlightened biggest users have always [01:20:35] come from Liverpool. From the beginning.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say Liverpool or Kent, I would have thought would be your two big. [01:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well no. Essex. You’re thinking. Sorry but no, it’s more Liverpool or Newcastle, more North northwest [01:20:45] or northeast. Newcastle. Sunderland?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The people up there just want white teeth, man. Yeah [01:20:50] yeah yeah. Um but Liverpool as a town, I’ve been going there for years now [01:20:55] and what a change. Yeah. The people are amazing. [01:21:00] Everyone’s a comedian and, and funny and [01:21:05] just, just, just like real salt of the earth. I always think of Liverpool Manchester [01:21:10] as like complete opposites in so much as in Manchester. Everyone looks quite polished. Okay, but you’re not [01:21:15] sure what to think about it. But in Liverpool they’re quite raw. But everyone’s cool. Everyone’s [01:21:20] everyone’s just like, uh, worth talking to. Um, but the change in [01:21:25] that town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s huge. But you know what? That really makes me feel quite proud that [01:21:30] you’ve just said that. I hear it all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Love that.

Payman Langroudi: City. And there is such a stereotype about [01:21:35] Liverpool that that once people have been, they realise that it’s not what it was, I think. You know, you [01:21:40] mentioned when my dad and the police and Toxteth riots, there is such a stigma and Harry Enfield and the [01:21:45] Scousers and all that, you know, shell suits and trackies and calmed down and all that stuff. There is that stereotype. [01:21:50] Um, Liverpool has had its difficult times. You know, the 80s, [01:21:55] even into the early noughties when I went when I left Liverpool to go to university, Liverpool had [01:22:00] big problems. Um 2008 we got all that capital of culture money [01:22:05] and it absolutely transformed the city. I mean, I was back [01:22:10] living there at the time. I was living in the docks, um, in sort of warehouse living type [01:22:15] stuff. And it was just a great time. But that, that the city transformed and it is [01:22:20] an absolutely fantastic city to live in. And like every city, it’s got issues and [01:22:25] it’s got idiots. But the majority are, like you said, up for a laugh.

Payman Langroudi: The people [01:22:30] are so unique.

Payman Langroudi: Man cannot wait to chat to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I ran a course last week. Uh, [01:22:35] we had 16 hygienists therapists come over for a two day course. Um, [01:22:40] from all over the country and the WhatsApp group the night before, because they were all coming in on the Wednesday night. We were teaching [01:22:45] Thursday and Friday was, oh my God, Liverpool is so friendly. I’ve had so many random conversations. [01:22:50] And my teaching colleague Helen Maria teaching us, we were just texting each other going [01:22:55] makes me feel quite proud about that. It’s good. Yeah, I am born and bred in Liverpool. I’ve [01:23:00] escaped for a bit and moved back and uh, it’s it’s a great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: Great restaurants, [01:23:05] great shopping that Liverpool won the Duke of Westminster project. Yeah, yeah. Liverpool [01:23:10] won like I find really good places there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good culture. We’ve got multiple theatres, [01:23:15] comedy scene, live music.

Payman Langroudi: What I love is that kind of city that’s [01:23:20] big enough that you can go and find yourself a Wagyu steak if you really want one, but small enough [01:23:25] that everyone kind of knows each other kind of bumping into each other. And then with Liverpool [01:23:30] as well, like, you know, it was at one point it was one of the richest cities in Britain, the richest city in Britain. [01:23:35] At one point when the slave trade. Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, it was [01:23:40] built on that.

Payman Langroudi: But those, those massive buildings, not not just the warehouse, the [01:23:45] massive bank like buildings, you know, they’re really special. You don’t get [01:23:50] that in many places.

Payman Langroudi: But we’ve got more royal liver.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Craziness.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more grade [01:23:55] two listed buildings than any other city outside of London.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Because it was bombed in [01:24:00] the war.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Too far.

Payman Langroudi: So I think it wasn’t deemed to be strategically important. So the architecture [01:24:05] is phenomenal. And if you if you walk around with your head up and look around. Yeah. [01:24:10] You’re right. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s architecturally beautiful in [01:24:15] parts. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the pod.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:24:20] mistakes. Clinical errors that you’ve made that the rest [01:24:25] of us can learn from.

Payman Langroudi: Um. I [01:24:30] can think, well, maybe whether other people can learn from it, I don’t know. But [01:24:35] arrogant sort of the arrogance of youth. You know, I was, I was doing [01:24:40] my perio surgery stuff and I was generally pretty good at it. And I had a patient [01:24:45] who was referred, I mean, just this, just the horror. It’s more of a is it a mistake? It was a bad [01:24:50] clinical outcome. She came to me with an an upper right central incisor that was root filled [01:24:55] and dark with a little bit of recession on it. And I was asked to cover the root up and also thicken [01:25:00] the tissue so the dark root didn’t show through. Done it a few times, multiple times before at this [01:25:05] point. Um, yeah. No problem. Uh, but the tooth was root filled. It was a protected there was [01:25:10] scar tissue. The surgery was a complete nightmare. I got really good coverage that it [01:25:15] seemed to go okay, but it was difficult. Um, she got really bad healing. She got, [01:25:20] she went from having two meals, a recession to six mils of recession. I’d caused it. My, [01:25:25] my, my healing response was horrendous. Um, she’d gone through two [01:25:30] and a half years of ortho, by the way, to get to that point. And I was the, I was the penultimate bit [01:25:35] before they replaced the crown on this tooth. Um, that was pretty bad. Uh, [01:25:40] what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: I just had to, I, I had to own it and I just had to, I redid [01:25:45] it. Um, I can’t say I did anything massively differently and we got a really good outcome the second [01:25:50] time. Um, but it was you then working with the patients who is [01:25:55] doubting you and yeah, there’s a trust issue now. And actually she’s gone from a two mil [01:26:00] recession to a six mil recession on a tooth that is dark. Um, it was a difficult, [01:26:05] difficult period.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the learning outcome from that?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:26:10] what was.

Payman Langroudi: There was an error. What was the era? Was it a communication error? I mean, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: You did ask [01:26:15] me about it. Could I say there was an error? Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You said. You said you wouldn’t have done it any differently.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think I would have [01:26:20] done it any differently. So maybe it wasn’t. Or maybe it was just like we said that sometimes you just don’t get the healing you want. Not [01:26:25] all soft tissue.

Payman Langroudi: Is consent error.

Payman Langroudi: I think thankfully we consent for all sorts [01:26:30] of problems.

Payman Langroudi: Did you tell them that that could have happened? Yeah, possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Graphs can fail. Things can heal [01:26:35] unfavourably. So yeah, I think we always have thorough conversations. So whether that was a dark [01:26:40] time, it was a stressful time because of the I mean, the other thing I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: The patient [01:26:45] didn’t do anything right.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t know patient trusted me. We we’re she [01:26:50] has to wait 3 to 4 months for that site to mature before we can go back in. Walking [01:26:55] around with a front tooth that’s like now got more recession. She was, with [01:27:00] hindsight, incredibly tolerant. Um, and the one thing I would always [01:27:05] say to people, if you’ve got a problem, just own it, be all over it and, you know, smother the patient in [01:27:10] kindness and, um, don’t try and quick fix, don’t try and distance yourself. Don’t you know? [01:27:15] Um, I think the only time to say distance. The only time if you if you can’t [01:27:20] fix it, if you’re not the guy, make sure that they end up in front of the guy or the girl who can [01:27:25] fix it. You know, do whatever it takes to make this right for that patient. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:27:30] give money back straight away, man. I mean, even don’t even ponder on it, although not as easy [01:27:35] as you think. Sometimes you work for a corporate, it has to go up the up the ladder and back down. Um, [01:27:40] what’s, what’s been what, what comes to mind if I ask you what’s been your darkest day [01:27:45] professionally?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the day I got my GDC letter. [01:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: From a patient.

Payman Langroudi: From a. Yeah. So, um, long story [01:27:55] short, I was, I was still a GDP, but only just at this point, I was very [01:28:00] much perio trained and MSC nearly finished. And um.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:28:05] it during that peak, GDC 2015, 2016 time?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, probably.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [01:28:10] dentist was.

Payman Langroudi: A little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Earlier. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Probably about probably about 2008. Oh, can’t quite remember. [01:28:15] But it was it was peak. It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Peak time of a type of severe distrust [01:28:20] with the profession. Yeah. Um, and I had a guy who knew patient consult, I treated his [01:28:25] family, uh, and he came in with a lesion lower right on his soft tissue on his gingiva [01:28:30] in his attached gingiva. Didn’t look great, but he said to me, oh, I’ve had this before. [01:28:35] And I said, what was it? And he said, I don’t know. I said, what do they do? He said, oh, I was up [01:28:40] in Glasgow. They lasered it off and you know, I said, well yeah, but what did they tell you? It was, [01:28:45] I can’t remember. And I said, well and I again, to add value to the story, it [01:28:50] was the 21st of December. So I said to him, look, doesn’t look great, [01:28:55] but you know, don’t know what it is. Um, let’s get it checked. And [01:29:00] I said, but you know, try not to worry about it because you’ve had it before. It was nothing. You’ve got it [01:29:05] again. It’ll probably be nothing. Don’t worry about it. Um and his [01:29:10] wife said for the consultation with him, uh, so off he goes. I write the [01:29:15] letter to oral surgery to oral medicine, and we start [01:29:20] over from a.

Payman Langroudi: Good old days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We fax it over and we actually ring oral medicine. [01:29:25] Say, have you got the facts? They said yes, because I did it as a two week, uh, referral. So [01:29:30] he then gets an appointment for the 3rd of January to go and see [01:29:35] them, bearing in mind how many bank holidays we’ve got in that period. So we’re doing all right. And then [01:29:40] on that day, there was a massive snowfall in Liverpool and his appointment got cancelled and [01:29:45] put back two weeks. And in that two weeks he comes in to see me again. Because now he’s he’s actually [01:29:50] in a lot of pain and he opens his mouth and everything’s changed and it’s clearly something very [01:29:55] horrible. Um, and so, but at this point I’m working at the hospital. [01:30:00] So I take a photo and I go in and speak to the head of oral medicine and say, look, [01:30:05] this guy was doing last week. He’s not coming in for another, you know, have a [01:30:10] look at this further. Two weeks and straight away they said, oh God that’s clearly a squamous cell [01:30:15] carcinoma. So I so they said, you know, we more than [01:30:20] just a concert. I will know when he’s coming in. We’ll have it all ready.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll do the biopsies. We’ll just, we’ll run the case. [01:30:25] And so, so I’m thinking this is this is great service that’s doing really [01:30:30] well. And then um, about the Easter, I get [01:30:35] the, the letter that or the book, the, the, the case booklet from the GDC [01:30:40] because this patient’s now going after everybody, uh, he’s going after the hospital for delaying [01:30:45] his care. He went after the Maxfax team for, you know, and they, they [01:30:50] just threw the hospital’s lawyers behind it. No one had done anything wrong. It was it was it was a desperately sad [01:30:55] case. He was lashing out. Um, there were no winners. No winners at all in this scenario. [01:31:00] But he went after me for failing to diagnose and failing to [01:31:05] treat his problem. And now you and I would hope that a GDC [01:31:10] caseworker would have looked at that and made it just go, you know, quick letter, [01:31:15] dear. You know, dear patient, this dentist has done everything he’s done more than everything, [01:31:20] you know, taking photos. I’d gone in and spoke to oral medicine because I had the luxury of that, that, that access, [01:31:25] um, that took 11 months for that to go away.

Payman Langroudi: 11 [01:31:30] months of back and forth as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Back and forth. Um, [01:31:35] it was such a difficult time. I, I was working at the hospital, [01:31:40] uh, and I remember going to speak to Callum Johnson and I said, look, I’ve got this problem. And I [01:31:45] said, look, if I don’t want to bring any shame on the hospital. And he said, you’ve done nothing wrong. Don’t worry about [01:31:50] it. I just started working with Amin up at clinic three, three, four.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [01:31:55] I love that guy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, we we’ve worked together for 12 years, but I just started there with him. And [01:32:00] I approached him and I said, look, I don’t want to bring any embarrassment on the clinic, you know, because [01:32:05] my my back in the days we’d get the GDC booklet like once a month and [01:32:10] the case hearings would be in there. I thought, I’m going to be on there. I’m just building my reputation [01:32:15] at this point. I’m like ten years in, I’m just, I’m just just about building a name. I was [01:32:20] just started teaching with Phil. I said to Phil, look, I’ll stand back and I don’t want to bring any shame on your [01:32:25] great reputation. And I look back at all of them, said, you’ve done nothing wrong. [01:32:30] This is going to go away. Just you keep working with us, no problem. [01:32:35] But at the time, there was such a distrust of the GDC that [01:32:40] I doubted. I knew I’d done nothing wrong. I can tell a story now, and I know that given [01:32:45] my time again, I couldn’t have behaved any better. And everything was, you know, um, and [01:32:50] it, but it was a dark time. That was because I, you just constantly doubt yourself. [01:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: Everyone around you is telling you you’ve nothing to worry about. I remember coming down to London. Um, I [01:33:00] was with I’m with Dental protection and Jane Merivale, who’s now I think with BDA, was my [01:33:05] liaison. She was brilliant. She was. The support I got from from them was brilliant. And they brought in [01:33:10] external counsel because it was such a serious claim that if it was proven, the [01:33:15] consequences were going to be enormous, even though there was nothing to prove. But they brought in external [01:33:20] counsel. And I remember being in London, I had this meeting for about an hour, and I [01:33:25] felt totally reassured that everything was great. And they and they got to the end. She said, look, [01:33:30] don’t worry about this. Go away. Don’t worry. This is the easiest case that we’ve got to deal with at the moment. That [01:33:35] said, we don’t have a lot of faith in the GDC at the moment, and all of that hour of positivity [01:33:40] was undone and that’s how I slept. I didn’t sleep that night with that last sentence. Um, [01:33:45] that was dark and I was I was horrible to live with. [01:33:50] You know, I had young kids, um, I wasn’t present.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:55] was the emotion?

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it fear?

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what it was? [01:34:00] There was a fear of a. With hindsight, it’s ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: And if anyone’s [01:34:05] losing your. Your.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the profession and my one way of earning a living for my family and [01:34:10] my children. Um, we had not long moved home [01:34:15] house to the house we’re in now. We bought a doer upper. So the house was battered. Um, it [01:34:20] was our forever house in the project. And I thought, you know, how are we going to ever afford to run this and [01:34:25] make this work? There were visions of, you know, what else am I trained for? I mean, [01:34:30] we hear that in our profession all the time. What else can we do? And we can do a lot because we’ve got a lot of skill sets. [01:34:35] Yeah. Um, but just just a oh my God. You know, I’m going to embarrass [01:34:40] I’m in, I’m going to embarrass Phil. I’m going to let my family down. And [01:34:45] nobody could get through to me. You’ve actually done nothing wrong. This is going to be okay. [01:34:50] I just I knew it and I nodded and I just didn’t believe it until I got the letter [01:34:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time with the GDC at that point. It was really. It was an unknown entity. Yeah. Like [01:35:00] what was going to happen next?

Payman Langroudi: I think it was pre caseworkers as well. I think it didn’t it didn’t [01:35:05] go to a full hearing, but it went close to.

Payman Langroudi: You know it’s really interesting. It took 11 months [01:35:10] and you’ve done nothing wrong. Imagine you’d done something wrong. I mean you know like in [01:35:15] a career, sometimes you miss stuff. Sometimes you, you know, you make a mistake.

Payman Langroudi: All day long. [01:35:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s it’s the humanity side of that should be there too. But imagine now [01:35:25] you’ve done something wrong. Yeah. And you’re 11 months in.

Payman Langroudi: I genuinely don’t know how to cope with that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:35:30] And and concerned. You’re not going to be able to pay your kids school or your whatever it is, your mortgage or, [01:35:35] or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think we’re they’re better. I would like to think [01:35:40] they’re better. And I hear from people that they are.

Payman Langroudi: Improving, I think. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I still think we’ve got a way to go [01:35:45] because we you and I still see it on the forums. Yeah. The fear of of being [01:35:50] struck off. And I’ve said it before on, on forums, I actually think it’s relatively difficult to be [01:35:55] struck off. You’ve got to be a real idiot. And you’ve also, even if you make a mistake, the GDC don’t mind mistakes [01:36:00] as long as you show us how it’s not going to happen again. Show us that you’ve done some training. Show [01:36:05] us that you’ve. You know, I think, you know, I think the it is a better environment, [01:36:10] but I still think there’s a way to go. Um, but that was dark.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing because it’s [01:36:15] an irrational fear in some ways. Yeah. But, but at the same time, you go back [01:36:20] to that. What is it to be a professional? Yeah. One of the things is to be a professional is to be regulated. [01:36:25] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You’ll know from your wife that it’s the with lawyers, it’s the [01:36:30] same organisation that’s there, BDA and their GDC. Yeah. So, [01:36:35] so that that kind of goes to shows the point that it understands both sides. It understands [01:36:40] regulation and it sounds practice. But with us, there’s this sort of walled off, you [01:36:45] know, the BDA is like your friend, GDC is your enemy sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think there was [01:36:50] definitely that mindset. And I also think, you know, thankfully, my wife never had any regulatory [01:36:55] issues that she had to deal with of her own. But I always saw with things like the Law Society [01:37:00] that there was an element of, we’re going to back our own and protect them. But if you prove that there that [01:37:05] this person’s a baddie, then obviously we’ll sort this out. And I think the one thing that we always [01:37:10] used to see with the GDC was that there was the fear that we were guilty until proven innocent. [01:37:15] You had to prove your innocence, not the other way. Not they didn’t have to prove your guilt. And [01:37:20] I think that was a fear, um, that we had, whether it was rational.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers have one for [01:37:25] sure, dude. Yeah. Because notes have become this complete like, like you could have been the best [01:37:30] dentist in the world, but if you forgot to write that thing in the notes, that could be, you know, something [01:37:35] they get you on. Um, not to mention what’s it called? Dental law partnership. [01:37:40] Uh, they buy, they buy a case, you know about that. They go out there [01:37:45] and buy cases from all the other lawyers. Oh, your wife’s a lawyer. So you know how these.

Payman Langroudi: Ex-lawyer.

Payman Langroudi: Now, these sort of things work? Yeah. [01:37:50] Um, I feel like it needs to be an issue. Every dentist must have at some back [01:37:55] of his head something about standards and regulations, but not the number one, two, three, [01:38:00] four, five. Most important thing he’s thinking about, you know, number one, two and three should be [01:38:05] all around the patient. Yeah. You know, maybe then your team. Yeah. All of that then. Number 11. Yes. [01:38:10] Don’t be an idiot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, it’s interesting because I do a little bit [01:38:15] of teaching with, um, Leo Briggs from MD. You. Yeah. Um, he supports some of the [01:38:20] courses that we do and, and he, his view and I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but is [01:38:25] that we write too many notes. Yeah. And you actually, and I see it with some of the younger colleagues [01:38:30] I’m working with. When I get one of their patients referred in house, I can’t [01:38:35] actually find the pertinent information that I need because there’s all this noise. Yeah. And [01:38:40] our notes were always meant to be for us. You were supposed to be able to pick up someone else’s notes, know what [01:38:45] was done last time, know what’s supposed to be done next time. And it was, it was that. And obviously [01:38:50] if something bad happened, You. You told the story in the notes, but you didn’t record every [01:38:55] ounce of every conversation. And actually, you now look at people’s notes and you think, there’s [01:39:00] no way all those conversations actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of the West, man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know [01:39:05] about this? Like in China, the last three Leaders Xie and Dong Xiaoping and whatever [01:39:10] they were, all of them were engineers. Okay. That’s why when they build skyscrapers, it goes up quickly [01:39:15] and all that. Okay. Over on this side, lawyers are in charge. Yeah. Lawyers are in charge. And it’s [01:39:20] like when you put lawyers in charge and lawyers win. I feel like they have in in Dental. Yeah. Then [01:39:25] then regulatory becomes over important and stuff like this happens. [01:39:30] You know what you’re saying there is very pertinent, right? Patient outcomes are getting worse [01:39:35] because you can’t find the important bits of the notes, let alone you’ve got to spend the time writing [01:39:40] those essays. Patient outcomes are getting worse. But lawyers have won.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:39:45] It’s quite.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Can we do the grind the gears question again? Yeah. [01:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Does your wife not practice anymore?

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:39:55] She left law a long time ago. She had a couple of careers over the years. Um, she did about ten years as a [01:40:00] property lawyer, but she’s done a few things since.

Payman Langroudi: Are you gonna do your own place, [01:40:05] or do you feel like you’re an associate?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Um, I’ve nearly bought a practice twice. [01:40:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Um, nearly bought a practice many years ago, um, and got a bit shafted [01:40:15] at the 11th hour. Um, I had the option to buy into Rose Lane, um, a few years [01:40:20] back, but it would have meant, um dropping everything else. I did all my [01:40:25] teaching, my other clinics, my hospital at the time, because the only way to make it work was to be there [01:40:30] four and a half days a week. And I was only there three days a week. Um, and I made a conscious [01:40:35] decision. My wife and I made a conscious decision to that. We didn’t want to do that. I [01:40:40] loved teaching, I genuinely love teaching. Uh, it’s great fun. It’s [01:40:45] a, it’s a privilege. Um, And so I just thought, you know what? It’s not for me. And [01:40:50] with hindsight, I don’t for a minute regret it that I’ve not bought a practice and done it. I think [01:40:55] specialist practice, the goodwill is not worth the same as a general practice anyway. Um, I don’t [01:41:00] know that I’d, I’d have been a nice employer, but nice employers are not always the best, you know, [01:41:05] not the best business people.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and specialist associate is quite an interesting position isn’t it. Because [01:41:10] you get better, better um splits than generalists. Yeah. [01:41:15] I think plus the prices are higher. Yeah. So from the business perspective that’s cool. And [01:41:20] isn’t that a happy associate is one of the happiest jobs in the world. [01:41:25] Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you can, if you can do as a specialist, no one’s going to get in your way and tell you what to do. So you can [01:41:30] do what you want to do. All you need is patience, basically. That’s it. Yeah. End of no, [01:41:35] I would agree.

Payman Langroudi: I think all of those things that you’ve said, I, I, you know, yeah, you can command [01:41:40] a slightly better sort of split. You are working on a better split of a higher [01:41:45] fee. Um, you don’t need to be there five days a week because you’re not their general dentist, [01:41:50] you’re not there, you’re not there for the cement crowns. So you can do piecemeal work. The [01:41:55] peripatetic sort of work. Um, the only thing I’d say to [01:42:00] any associate listening is you’ve got to, you’ve got to understand the business [01:42:05] side of a practice though having nearly bought a couple of practices over the years, nearly done that. Yeah. [01:42:10] I, when I go to a practice and I’d hope that anyone I’ve worked with will testify [01:42:15] to this, I’m all in. It’s all it’s about me and I want the best for me. But actually, [01:42:20] I also want the best for the practice. And I’ve always done everything I can to promote the practice and [01:42:25] also promote my colleagues in the practice, because we we all benefit [01:42:30] when we all pull together.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Right. I mean, when I was an associate, I used to make an [01:42:35] absolute point of defending the principle amongst the nurses. Yeah. You know, like that [01:42:40] us and them thing that can go on. Um, number one, but number two I see it on mini [01:42:45] smile maker on our um composite course you get some associates come and [01:42:50] there’s a, there’s a friction between them and their boss that they 100% [01:42:55] will not buy a goddamn thing. Yeah, yeah, I get it. By the way, I [01:43:00] get it. If your boss keeps on changing your percentage and treating you like terribly, you [01:43:05] start to think, well, why should I put my hand in my pocket? But then you get the other side. You get these super [01:43:10] associates, whatever they call it. The guys bought his own scanner. He’s come he’s [01:43:15] buying everything from us, you know, and and he’s very happy. I mean, he I guess again, [01:43:20] you know, it’s a winner you’re talking about, right? Someone who’s managing to bring his own patients [01:43:25] in and all that.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then but then everything in between as well. But your [01:43:30] point is excellent because the associates job is, is much more than take [01:43:35] care of these patients. If you’re going to be someone who’s going to, you know, enjoy your work, right? [01:43:40] Enjoy your work, Understand that running a business is tough, and [01:43:45] the number of associates who don’t even realise they’re making a loss for their practice. A number of principals don’t [01:43:50] realise associates are making a loss for their practice. There’s a good amount you have to earn as an associate just [01:43:55] to be cash flow positive for the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Um, [01:44:00] I see as you see on some of the platforms on social media, you know, I’m an associate. I pay my [01:44:05] X percent. I want this, this and this. It’s all very, it’s all very me, me, myself [01:44:10] and I.

Payman Langroudi: Entitled.

Payman Langroudi: And yes, you are your own business. And yes, you’ve got to look after yourself. But [01:44:15] at the same time, you know, you are a business within a business and that your business is only going [01:44:20] to survive if that business does well. And it, I don’t know, I’ve been at Rose Lane now [01:44:25] for 15 years in.

Payman Langroudi: A happy place.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a really good place.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed [01:44:30] man.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed that every now and then there are issues a 17 [01:44:35] surgeries we’ve just moved to. It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Just expanded. It’s a great 17 [01:44:40] surgeries for floor. Fully digital in the house lab practice in the practice in-house.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:44:45] the specialities as well.

Payman Langroudi: Every everything apart from maxfax. Um so yeah, perio. [01:44:50]

Payman Langroudi: Who’s the who’s the principal.

Payman Langroudi: Guy called Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, he’s done really well. He’s [01:44:55] a good guy.

Payman Langroudi: What a hero.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what the one thing about Paul, he’s never, never [01:45:00] over promised anything and not delivered.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Payman Langroudi: You. To me, I’d say, um. But equally, [01:45:05] if I if I want something, I can’t have it, he’ll tell me why. Um, he’s also [01:45:10] whenever, if ever there was a time where there was a, you know, a split where it [01:45:15] could go 51% in my favour and 49% of his, that’s what he’d take that because it was like, [01:45:20] well, I don’t need that 1% makes no difference. But Ian will be happier. He’s just got he’s had a bigger picture [01:45:25] attitude about not the next six weeks, but the next six years or 20 years. [01:45:30] And you know, I’ll I won’t leave that practice. I’ll retire from there. I’m there three days a week. [01:45:35] I’m a high grossing associate. He knows I look after the patients well. My perio [01:45:40] feeds his implant work because I get sent stuff that Harry Potter couldn’t fix. You [01:45:45] know? So it’s a win win.

Payman Langroudi: How old is he?

Payman Langroudi: He’s actually. He’s [01:45:50] younger than me now. He’s 49.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing. Amazing. So you really will be there for the rest [01:45:55] of your career? Yeah. He’s a good guy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s. He’s been a good guy to work with. He’s a good friend. And yeah, [01:46:00] a lot of respect. And what he’s built is, is quite incredible. Yeah. Good on him.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:46:05] come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with the usual questions. Um, some quick fire ones. What stands [01:46:10] out to you as one of the best lectures you’ve ever been to? Or a course lecture? I like lecture I’m quite [01:46:15] interested in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to give you two, if you don’t mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So in terms of inspirational, [01:46:20] like blow Your Mind lectures, you’re looking at people for me, like Otto Zur in Germany, [01:46:25] the plastics guy. Um, okay. So while [01:46:30] some of the Italians are truly inspirational, they also often come with big egos. And Otto [01:46:35] is someone who is is quite humble considering how skilled he is. And I’ve spent time with him and [01:46:40] he wants to talk more about Bayern Munich and Liverpool Football Club than just about plastics. [01:46:45] And I’ve spent time over there and they. That blew my mind. What they can achieve and the evidence [01:46:50] base that the way he teaches it was phenomenal. Um, I’ll go back to fill our [01:46:55] though it was 2002 when I got Liverpool job and I [01:47:00] thought, I need to go and do a course and I went and did a four day section 63 [01:47:05] NHS, I think it was three I think Aintree Hospital. And [01:47:10] that blew my mind. I just it was like for all the training [01:47:15] we’d had at undergraduate level, I didn’t really understand anything. We just scraped stuff off teeth [01:47:20] and then we did it again six months later and they just like the. The clouds parted [01:47:25] and just there was clarity and everything made sense off the back of it. And I remember [01:47:30] leaving thinking, is it really that simple? You know, yes, perio can be very complicated, but [01:47:35] actually most of it is very simple fundamentals, doing the basics really well. And [01:47:40] that probably goes for tooth whitening and you know, do the basics really well and you’ll get good [01:47:45] results. And that that, you know, Arlene Thiel well, she changed my life because she [01:47:50] gave me the job that I didn’t really think I wanted. But then fill hour was the one who lit the little fire underneath [01:47:55] me because within, within four years of me going on that NHS [01:48:00] section 63 course, 2006, I went to Madrid to my first Euro perio. [01:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You guys love that, don’t you? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Perio Olympics.

Payman Langroudi: Glastonbury, it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Olympics. [01:48:10] Every three years in a major European city. 10,000 people, 10,000 [01:48:15] people.

Payman Langroudi: How many? 30 stages or something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’ve usually got at least ten stages [01:48:20] at any one time. The main auditorium is normally about six, 5 to 6000 people. They’re big.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:48:25] interesting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s great. And it’s not all perio. A lot of implant stuff, a lot of research stuff. It’s [01:48:30] it’s. Yeah. And every three years we’re all we’re all going to Munich in 2028. It’ll be great.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So. So yeah, the flower thing probably for me was the [01:48:40] career changing lecture. And it wasn’t a lecture, it was a course, but it really did.

Payman Langroudi: What about [01:48:45] if there was no time or money constraints. What course would you jump into tomorrow?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:50] would go and do the whole [01:48:55] Otto and Marcus Hertzler talk. The whole program. You look, it’s about [01:49:00] it’s about 30, 40 grand a year. So it’s almost like a mini masters, but it’s it’s [01:49:05] more just the hands on stuff. Um, those guys are gods. It doesn’t matter who you are, you’re [01:49:10] going to be able to learn something from them. I went over and did something just before the pandemic. Um, and [01:49:15] just, you know, remember feeling like I actually knew nothing about anything. And because I’d [01:49:20] had a couple of difficult, I’d had a couple of cases not go perfectly well. And I thought, you know what, even though I was teaching [01:49:25] some of this stuff, I thought, I need to just go back and have a refresh. You know, everyone should do that. You know, [01:49:30] no one’s too big to go on a course. And every time you go on a course, you learn something new anyway. [01:49:35] And so I went over to Munich, spent three days with with the two of them, um, and [01:49:40] just just tweaked everything and came back and then everything started working again.

Payman Langroudi: I got [01:49:45] massive respect for teachers who go on courses, man, you know, like a, it might be [01:49:50] difficult, you know, like for socially difficult to turn up as a delegate. Um, [01:49:55] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of humility though.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know it all. You never [01:50:00] will know it all. Yeah. You know, you can learn from monarch. Monarch [01:50:05] can learn from someone else or learn from it. It’s just no [01:50:10] one’s got all the answers. And so, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I actually think it’s almost [01:50:15] wrong to have a guru. You know, I always think you should if you if you your world is composite, you [01:50:20] should hear the gospel according to 3 or 4 different people. Gallup or, you know, [01:50:25] I think we had D-Day over at the weekend and we were Gulfport, D.J.. You know, [01:50:30] you should go and listen to other people and think, right, whose philosophy fits with me? And that’s the same for perio. So [01:50:35] for us, is it Otto? Is it Zucchelli? Is it Amit Patel? Is it me? Is [01:50:40] it who is it? You know, um, the the Peri Academy. Who is it? Go [01:50:45] and listen to people and decide who do I fit with? Um, because we don’t know. [01:50:50] No one knows it all.

Payman Langroudi: So what comes to mind when I ask what’s your favourite resource? What’s your favourite [01:50:55] book?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the, the Perry Bible, I [01:51:00] suppose is the, the Lindy textbook. It’s like double volume. Don’t really go to [01:51:05] that much anymore. That was my go to book when I was studying. Um, again, I [01:51:10] keep I’m going to get sponsored by these guys, but Otto’s uh, has, has the big pink book that everyone [01:51:15] talks about the Perry plastic surgery. Yeah. So teeth and implants, that’s just one of the most [01:51:20] beautifully photographed and put together Bibles on the planet. You know, it’s just amazing. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Love in your face when you say it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just it’s just Kool and the gang stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about [01:51:30] resource like maybe website, uh, blog, uh, Instagram page or [01:51:35] whatever it is.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know, I’ve got to be honest from a point of view, I don’t follow [01:51:40] many. Um, I tend to follow people. Lecture wise, I’ll go to conferences [01:51:45] because they’re there. Um, I prefer live in, [01:51:50] in event type learning. Um, I think in terms of keeping [01:51:55] in touch with the profession, you know, for dentists by dentists is the biggest platform. [01:52:00] Um, and I’m on there and I contribute and I listen and you [01:52:05] take stuff in. Um, and in terms of personal resource, if I, if I’m [01:52:10] struggling with something, I’m very lucky that through my work over the years with people like the [01:52:15] BSP, I’m quite well connected. I can, I can send Ian Chappell or Philip Preece or a [01:52:20] WhatsApp and, and just have that back up that I’ve, I got this [01:52:25] right Or am I.

Payman Langroudi: Doing this wrong that we all need that.

Payman Langroudi: Mentors or peer support? You know you’ve [01:52:30] got to do it was Nick, wasn’t it? The network effect. Build [01:52:35] your network. Yeah. Whatever world you’re in, build a network, build people that you can, you [01:52:40] can just go, I need a favour or can I ask you this? Or, you know, we [01:52:45] I think we do it. We do it all the time and people do it to me. And I think, you know, when [01:52:50] you’re lucky enough to be part of other people’s network, be there and be be present and [01:52:55] give your time. Because we’ve all had a hand up, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I was going to say, you must [01:53:00] have that now with mentees, right. Huge, you know, getting people excited about, [01:53:05] you know, people did that for you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, even if it’s just a couple of people coming in and [01:53:10] watching me in the clinic or, you know, coming on the course or wanting some mentorship or just some just a Facebook [01:53:15] message and advice, you always, I always just think, well, I had this support, so you [01:53:20] got to pay it back, haven’t you? Yeah. For sure. It’s, um, I think people need to remember [01:53:25] that.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah, it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three [01:53:30] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:53:35] so I did think about this one because I knew I hear the song, all you podcasts. [01:53:40] I’m sort of going to go with a bit of a musical theme. So [01:53:45] it’s not it’s not that musical, but you’ll get it when I explain. So my grandad, my mum’s [01:53:50] dad, um, he passed away before I was 18. Uh, [01:53:55] he never knew I went to dental school. I’d loved to have. I’d loved him to see where I’m. What I’m doing [01:54:00] now. Um, he had a real passion for music. So my musical [01:54:05] tastes are very weird and wonderful. Quite eclectic. One of his things was he [01:54:10] bought every number one single, whether he liked it or not, on on seven inch for about 8 [01:54:15] or 9 years. It’s a collection. Every single one. So whether you know, um, and [01:54:20] he always taught me that a good song is a good song, whether it’s hip hop, R&B, country [01:54:25] and Western rap. You know, just.

Payman Langroudi: I think that I think I agree with that, with the foreign, you know, like sometimes I don’t understand [01:54:30] a word of what’s being said, but it’s good music. Yeah, it’s a good song.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s a bassline or a riff [01:54:35] or something. So my granddad for that reason, and he was a good [01:54:40] guy. One of the people, he was the life and soul of a party. So he’d be great to have a dinner party. Um, [01:54:45] next one’s a bit weird, but I was chatting to my wife about this, but I. Chris [01:54:50] Evans is someone I really like, the radio presenter, Chris Evans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know Chris Evans because he. [01:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: I just think.

Payman Langroudi: Back in our day he was on fire. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Well, there was TFI and there was [01:55:00] don’t forget your toothbrush. And he was living quite a wild hedonistic life wasn’t he? Yeah, yeah. [01:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um what’s he up to now?

Payman Langroudi: I think he’d have great stories. I think so. He’s [01:55:10] now on. Well he was on radio two for years and now he hosts Virgin. And he’s he’s [01:55:15] totally different to who he was. He’s now teetotal and he’s he’s into running. But he’s actually [01:55:20] incredibly positive. And some people will hate that. Some people don’t. You know, it’s just too annoyingly [01:55:25] positive and upbeat all the time. Driving into work every morning. I quite like the [01:55:30] start to the day. Yeah. And I just think he I like his outlook on life and I like [01:55:35] and, and also he’s got that music background. He’s interviewed, he’s, he’s interviewed and partied with [01:55:40] some of the big, big names. Yeah, for sure. So he’d be good. Um, and my [01:55:45] last one is probably a sort of a musical sort of sort of hero would be Billy Joel. Oh, [01:55:50] um, another guy who’s probably been a bit of a hellraiser in his time and would have some good stories. My granddad [01:55:55] wouldn’t fit in because he was almost teetotal, but he’d fit in with Chris Evans new model. Um, but [01:56:00] yeah, Billy Joel, he’s, he’s someone who I’ve only seen live once. Um, but it was someone that my [01:56:05] granddad got me listening to. Um, and yeah, I think that would make [01:56:10] for an interesting evening. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Last question is a deathbed question. Three [01:56:15] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:56:20]

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Let’s skip that. Let’s skip that, because the chances of that seem [01:56:25] to be very similar every time I ask them. Okay, like another one. Um, how would you like to be remembered? [01:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: As a nice guy who doesn’t [01:56:35] take himself too seriously and will always help if you [01:56:40] ask, that would do.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s [01:56:45] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Me. That’s someone who’s not taking himself too seriously. Yeah. No, that’s a perfect answer. [01:56:50] Good. It’s been amazing, man. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been good fun.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:56:55] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit [01:57:00] subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:57:05] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Give us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [01:57:10] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:57:15] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sheena [00:00:45] Gillan onto the podcast. Sheena has just finished [00:00:50] DC Dental Corps Training two and is in practice. [00:00:55] Yeah. Yeah. So first time I met you, you were a T plus one. F [00:01:00] t plus one.

Sina Gilannejad: Just finished.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go f t straight into DCT or did you have a stint [00:01:05] in practice?

Sina Gilannejad: I went, I went f d straight into DCT straight in DCT. Yeah. I um [00:01:10] I finished f d and I just had like [00:01:15] a crippling anxiety for extractions was the main thing. So if I had [00:01:20] an extraction the day after or the day before, I wasn’t sleeping, stress stressed the whole time and [00:01:25] I’d always end up like snapping at the roots of everything. Like just it haunted [00:01:30] me. And it sucked because in dental school, I was really good. So I was like, that’s [00:01:35] to summarise it. But I was like, I cannot live my life like this. [00:01:40] So I, I did DD1I went to to where you studied. Yeah. [00:01:45]

Payman Langroudi: When was that for DC1 and two.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, no, that was just for DCD1. Oh yeah. So finished PhD in [00:01:50] Manchester. Uh, did DC.

Payman Langroudi: Studied in Sheffield.

Sina Gilannejad: No. Studied in Bristol. Bristol. [00:01:55] Yeah. Oh I knew the Sheffield lot like Adam. Well Adams. He was Leaders. I just knew through mutual [00:02:00] friends.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And, um. And yeah, [00:02:05] I just, you know what? Moving. So for those of you that don’t know, [00:02:10] um, moved from Northern Ireland is where I was born. My parents are Iranian, so [00:02:15] I’m all over the place. Grew up in Northern Ireland, had an amazing time, amazing childhood. And then we’re. [00:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: About.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, in Lisbon, ten minutes from Belfast.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. I’ve been there. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ve been to [00:02:25] Lisbon?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s kind of southwest.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah it is. Why would you do the Lisbon practice? [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: The what?

Sina Gilannejad: No way. Yeah. Lots of old people there. Yeah. It was [00:02:35] lovely place. Like back in Northern Ireland. I was like the most at that time, the most diverse thing [00:02:40] that there actually was. But like, I wasn’t really diverse because I was still white. So it was very easy for people to digest, [00:02:45] you know? So I had a lovely time growing up, played lots of rugby. It was my big thing. [00:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Good people.

Sina Gilannejad: Good people, man. Yeah, really nice people. The kind of place where you go walk your [00:02:55] dog and you’ll be in half an hour conversations for a while. You just have to talk. It’s expected. [00:03:00] Yeah. And, um, and then I got to, I finished my A level and I was always [00:03:05] a home bird. I was always going to just stay where I was. Um, and [00:03:10] then I finished my A levels and I kind of just looked around and it’s such a small place. So you just see [00:03:15] everyone everywhere. And I just looked around and I was like, you know what? Not too many of you are actually [00:03:20] like good friends. Like you’ve done some sly stuff, things like that. I [00:03:25] think, I think I might just spread my wings a bit. So I just applied anywhere and everywhere [00:03:30] in the UK and Bristol took me, um, they gave me an interview, went, did an interview, [00:03:35] passed and then I just had to get the grades, slipped up the grades. I got two days in a B because I took physics, [00:03:40] which I loved. I loved physics, that’s why I did it. But it was hard. And then, uh, took a year out, worked [00:03:45] at my dad’s pizza shop that whole year, which was one of the most transformational [00:03:50] things of my life, like, especially in terms of communication [00:03:55] and dealing with the public. It. It’s taught me everything I know [00:04:00] about how to deal with patient interactions. And I find, you [00:04:05] know, and I think that’s probably like one of my main strong suits, if not only is [00:04:10] how I speak and treat people and, um, and I think it’s just because, [00:04:15] you know, you can, you can mess up someone’s tooth, but if you mess up their food, it’s game over.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:20] was that the first time you’d worked in your dad’s place?

Sina Gilannejad: I, I was in and out like a while, but was the first time [00:04:25] I properly like every every weekday, some weekends and stuff was working there and he did [00:04:30] gruelling shifts man. You know, he’s, he’s the he’s the the working class. He [00:04:35] came he moved over from Iran 40 years ago just before the revolution. And [00:04:40] and he just got to work. He was working in London first, um, did black cabs. So he like remembered all [00:04:45] the streets and everything. And then he was in KFC for a bit, became manager there and then I [00:04:50] think he moved to um Northern Ireland for cheaper education at Queen’s. He [00:04:55] did textiles or something and then he opened his his pizza shop and it was just his baby, [00:05:00] you know. And and it’s still to this day, um running. I think it’s just had its [00:05:05] 30th, if not more. It’s not even 30. I think it might be like coming up to 40th anniversary [00:05:10] as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it one of those late night places you get.

Sina Gilannejad: No, not even it used to be. So when I was working there, unfortunately, [00:05:15] it was like from 4 to 1 a.m. it was hell. And working [00:05:20] that long is hard enough. But working with a family member, especially when you’re like an angsty teen like I was, [00:05:25] oh my goodness, it’s a wonder we’re still in touch.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what my dad, my dad studied in Queens [00:05:30] as well. No way. In Belfast in the 50s. In the 50s, economics?

Sina Gilannejad: No [00:05:35] way.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve got loads of friends who are half Iranian, half Irish. [00:05:40] Yeah, because of all his pals. Yeah.

Speaker 4: There’s a, there was a like.

Sina Gilannejad: You knew everyone [00:05:45] in that time. You knew everybody. That was because the Iranian community was really so small at the time. [00:05:50] Yeah. Um, you y’all just saw each other everywhere and.

Payman Langroudi: Become a really good town now as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Belfast is [00:05:55] good. You know what’s even better? I don’t know if you’ve been to Bangor. Bangor. It was a small seaside [00:06:00] town and that they’ve innovated it so much that they’ve give it a city status as well. So [00:06:05] yeah, so it’s nice. It’s just a really simple place to go. And, [00:06:10] and that’s nice. Especially like if you’ve like, you know, been in mainland, we call here in mainland, [00:06:15] um, or London for so long. It’s a nice place to just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But good restaurants and [00:06:20] things now food.

Sina Gilannejad: Is good. Yeah. Seafood obviously is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, [00:06:25] it’s, I always say it’s, this is in the past. It used to be always at least like ten, [00:06:30] 15 years behind everywhere else, like, um, with legislation like [00:06:35] gay marriage, he got legalised here and then like ten years after it took at least for [00:06:40] Northern Ireland to do it. So it was always lagging behind. But now I think it’s [00:06:45] improved itself so much that the younger Your generation, who [00:06:50] the young professionals would stop moving out so much and actually stay in the city. And, [00:06:55] and it’s booming, you know, like we actually finally have fried chicken there now. Yeah, it took a while.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:07:00] had some good food there. And also we did the event. We did our composite course there quite a lot. [00:07:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, man. Like it’s one of those places where good news travels fast and bad news probably as well.

Speaker 4: Yeah, [00:07:10] yeah yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So we had a lot of word of mouth. And so we did it there 4 or 5 times massively. [00:07:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And like, you know, you’re talking about the education side of things, especially my last two years in hospital, [00:07:20] I spent, you know, I got I was so fortunate to work with hundreds of consultants and so [00:07:25] many of them did a residency in Northern Ireland. Really? Because the troubles back then, you had so much trauma [00:07:30] to. Yeah, you had so much experience. And funnily enough, the sort of tail [00:07:35] end of that was, you know, whenever I was deciding, am I going to do dentistry and medicine because I liked I like the sciences. [00:07:40] I like talking to people. So it was, it was always going to, and I didn’t want to sit behind a desk the whole time. So it was always [00:07:45] going to be between dentistry and medicine. And I did a work experience at the hospital for [00:07:50] medicine and it put me off. But I saw first of all, like at that time, [00:07:55] because I didn’t have the skills to help anyone, I felt very hopeless and, you [00:08:00] know, melancholy and sad at the hospital, it was just grim. And then I was in A and E and like, [00:08:05] some poor guy got kneecapped as they did back in the day. There he was just crawling across the floor. I was like, yeah, no, [00:08:10] I think I think dance should be better. Yeah. Um, but it’s crazy that, you [00:08:15] know, in the career that I’ve had so far, I actually kind of went full circle and [00:08:20] ended up doing a lot of work in hospital. So nice place to come from, man. But yeah, [00:08:25] I got, I got bored and I saw everyone. I was like, ah, let’s, let’s meet some new faces. And then Bristol accepted [00:08:30] me.

Payman Langroudi: What a great town. Bristol is amazing. I love that town.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantastic. I, [00:08:35] I had the best five years. Full [00:08:40] stop.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop.

Sina Gilannejad: Full stop. That’s it, that’s it. Put on the t shirt. It was. The people were [00:08:45] so lovely. It was a perfect mix because, you know, I was like, I’ve been to most student cities now. [00:08:50] Like Liverpool was way too studenty for me and still lovely, great fun as [00:08:55] well. But Bristol had a lovely mix of student family life. So much to do, so unique [00:09:00] in itself.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful. Yeah. Unfortunately now it’s just so expensive. [00:09:05] Um, but back then it was just about affordable and the Dental school was [00:09:10] amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It knew right?

Sina Gilannejad: Not. So I was fortunate when I was Dental [00:09:15] president there, I was actually on the board who we designed the new hospital. So [00:09:20] unfortunately when we built it and opened it, I got to see around it. But by that time I was graduated. [00:09:25] So so I didn’t get to study in it. But I know the facilities it they’re insane. [00:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you were the president?

Sina Gilannejad: I was the president. It would have been just after Covid. Okay. [00:09:35] 21 and, um, that was another really, really good year of my life. [00:09:40] And it was if I hadn’t done that, I would have never met my wife as well. So it’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re that [00:09:45] cat, the one who says, I want to be the president?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I [00:09:50] kind of like it.

Payman Langroudi: I wish I was there.

Sina Gilannejad: I think, I think I [00:09:55] think early on it was always that kind of thing. And I was so close [00:10:00] to not doing it in the end. So early on, I did always want to be the Dental president because [00:10:05] I obviously, like you’re younger, you see, like the prestige that comes with it and everything. But it’s like the, the idea [00:10:10] that you can actually make some not to be cringey, but to make some real change. Yeah. And [00:10:15] like I said, like everybody wants to feel unique in a, in a certain way. And, [00:10:20] and I, from that experience I had with working at my dad’s, I really did feel [00:10:25] and was told that my, my unique selling point was just being able to [00:10:30] talk to people as a human, like getting, getting that patient interaction perfect, [00:10:35] like dealing with an angry, patient, sad, patient, happy, patient, um, you know, anxious patient. [00:10:40] That was my selling point. And, and that came through to to my interactions [00:10:45] with my friends as well. When I was younger, I was always called like the agony [00:10:50] uncle, like the person everyone would come to, and I was seeking it. I was seeking to help people’s problems and looking [00:10:55] back over it and doing like a lot of like, you know, reminiscing and analysing. It was definitely [00:11:00] from a place of trying to busy myself with so many other people’s problem that I wouldn’t deal [00:11:05] with my own. Interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Yeah. It [00:11:10] took me a while to figure that out. And then once I figured that out, I tried to stop doing that as much. But [00:11:15] from from a place like that was was why I wanted to do presidency. And I was so close to not doing it [00:11:20] before the pandemic. I just felt like, you know what? There’s so many lovely [00:11:25] people around me that would be so much better. They’re way more organised than me. They’re way more proactive and [00:11:30] stuff academic. They would do better. So I wasn’t going to put my name for it. And [00:11:35] then the pandemic hit. So I was in fourth year. No, I was in third year. Fourth year [00:11:40] is whenever in Bristol you can apply for presidency. And [00:11:45] I said when the pandemic hit, a lot of people pulled out [00:11:50] because it was obviously such a tough time and we all realised what was important and and [00:11:55] just wanted to sort of get back in and get back to normality and didn’t want that extra weight on. [00:12:00] And at that point, I was kind of like, everyone’s losing their minds, everyone’s freaking out. I [00:12:05] feel like maybe this is something I can get involved in now. Like I felt like in [00:12:10] an emergency situation in my head, I wasn’t so worried about messing up anymore because [00:12:15] I was like, anything is better than this.

Sina Gilannejad: You just need to calm people down almost. And so I did it and [00:12:20] I had such a great year. We did so much. Um, you [00:12:25] know, just the, the new Dental school alone took up so much of my time. And, and if [00:12:30] that was all I did, it was great. But we did so much at that time, like it was during like BLM, we did [00:12:35] decolonise the curriculum per se. And um, what They colonise [00:12:40] the curriculum. I can’t even say curriculum. Yeah. So it was in [00:12:45] essence exactly what it says. So the a lot of the oh, well, oh, a good example [00:12:50] is it’s much it was actually when we did, we looked into our research, we found [00:12:55] out that the problem was more with the medics than the dentists. And it’s basically that a lot of [00:13:00] the research and evidence based practice that we have is on the typical white [00:13:05] 70 kg male and didn’t account for people of [00:13:10] different backgrounds, different skin colours and how conditions would look look like [00:13:15] as well. So a big part of decolonising the medical curriculum was a, I can’t remember the name of it, but a lovely [00:13:20] book, um, uh, that was released of skin conditions in people of [00:13:25] different skin Pigmentations.

Sina Gilannejad: Um, and that was in essence, you know, that inspired [00:13:30] us to do the same with dentistry. So one of the big ones was, um, that you always [00:13:35] hear floating around, but no evidence was really given Was teeth being harder to extract [00:13:40] in African Americans. And because of the density of the bone. Now I’ve [00:13:45] still been looking around. There’s no good studies that have been done anecdotally. I think a lot of us, especially me, having [00:13:50] spent so much time in oral surgery, anecdotally, a lot of us probably agree with that. But because there wasn’t [00:13:55] anecdotal, sorry, because there wasn’t an actual good evidence about that, we had [00:14:00] to sort of refine, like how we deliver that to patients [00:14:05] to, to students, to students. And then another big thing was oral medicine as well. Um, you’ve [00:14:10] got lichen planus. Um, you can get it obviously on skin as well. You’ve got other conditions, like blistering [00:14:15] conditions that can also get it on skin as well. We had to, we went through all [00:14:20] of our oral medical stuff and actually thankfully, um, and really reassuringly, we were actually [00:14:25] quite good. We, we were on board, we did show them in different populations [00:14:30] and different cultures and different.

Payman Langroudi: But that sounds like there’s a, there’s a sort of political, ideological. [00:14:35] Yeah. But sort of angle on it. So explain it.

Sina Gilannejad: 100%. Explain what [00:14:40] the decolonisation part.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So it’s again, it’s just making sure it was making sure that the curriculum [00:14:45] wasn’t just based around the white male that we trained our students to [00:14:50] a point where they, because.

Payman Langroudi: Because our patients are diverse, are so diverse.

Sina Gilannejad: And in London, it’s a [00:14:55] really easy way to see that, isn’t it? Yeah. You live, you work in one borough, you’ll have a completely different [00:15:00] demographic. You know, you live in one borough. You’re treating, um, mainly Caribbean [00:15:05] patients. You’re living one. It’s it’s all, um, Bengali patients. [00:15:10] You have one Sudanese, you’re the ones all white. So, um, it was to gear [00:15:15] them up for that.

Payman Langroudi: It could be, it could be seen as purely a, you know, Dental medical thing, right? That, you [00:15:20] know, we’re not we’re not covering this cohort of patients. But was there like a timing issue around BLM [00:15:25] that made this definitely become a thing?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, this was the thing. It was very, uh, [00:15:30] a big part of what I was worried about is coming off performative. [00:15:35] And that was a massive thing I was worried about, especially with like, how.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t want to virtue [00:15:40] signal. Yeah, exactly what you mean by performance.

Sina Gilannejad: I think we’re on the same page. You know, like [00:15:45] a lot of the companies and stuff were advertising [00:15:50] it, but not actually doing anything to action. Exactly. So like that.

Payman Langroudi: So like greenwashing.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:15:55] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That’s what I was really worried about. But then at the same time, part [00:16:00] of the movement is educating yourself. Yeah. So that’s, that’s how we did. And, and, um, another big [00:16:05] thing was being in the community. So the equality, diversity and inclusion, um, which [00:16:10] turned out there was no one of much diversity in [00:16:15] that not and, and again, it’s finding out why was that the case? It’s just because no one knew about it [00:16:20] and no one actually. Then when they knew about it, no one bothered to join. So that was a really difficult part. It’s [00:16:25] like, it’s really hard for me to vouch for you from for your background. I [00:16:30] can get your opinions and stuff, but you know, sometimes you need someone that’s there to [00:16:35] actually vote for themselves as well. But that’s not easy and not everyone’s built for that. So it was a really interesting [00:16:40] time.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve ever been politically active, like outside of this little piece.

Sina Gilannejad: No. [00:16:45] And I’ll tell you why I was so scared of politics growing up in Northern Ireland. [00:16:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on being an Iranian as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s a really. Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:55] Exactly. There was two like it was almost two kind of Canadian ways of thinking [00:17:00] about it. Like very much I didn’t want to upset anyone. I didn’t want to get anything wrong. So [00:17:05] I just dug my head in the sand. And, and that definitely wasn’t the right way to do it. [00:17:10] It’s just I, I was almost scared of having an opinion or [00:17:15] thought that me being so okay with everybody’s opinion was [00:17:20] my opinion. But I’ve changed a lot since then. I’ve tried, I’ve backlogging [00:17:25] always trying to educate myself a lot more and like the history of North [00:17:30] America.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time back then because we were. The number one issue that everyone was [00:17:35] worried about was not offending. Yeah. People.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if you, you know, it’s really difficult [00:17:40] to to sort of talk. Mhm. And only [00:17:45] talk in a way that offends no one. Yeah. You end up only being quite [00:17:50] vanilla.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And you can have such.

Payman Langroudi: A if that’s your primary concern. I mean, of course I don’t want [00:17:55] to offend anyone, but if it’s my primary concern and there was a level of fear involved in it, like a [00:18:00] fear of getting cancelled, fear of saying the wrong thing and all that.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, cancel culture was huge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:18:05] Huge. And, you know, whatever you want to say about Trump. And there’s a lot you can say about Trump. Yeah. The [00:18:10] fact that that pendulum got swung a little bit back. I mean, the trumpet song many, [00:18:15] many kilometres. But but but it had gone too far. It had gone too [00:18:20] far.

Sina Gilannejad: It went in a you almost and like you said, with [00:18:25] that idea of trying not to offend anyone, you do so much talking and end up not actually having said any points. And [00:18:30] that’s hard. And I think and I think unfortunately, that’s just the way society [00:18:35] had brought us up. And I think we should be and hopefully are coming to a place where we can [00:18:40] have our own beliefs and they can be strong beliefs. But we’ve lost so much of that [00:18:45] respect that’s in between. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s so hard to [00:18:50] have a communication. Like, let’s just break it down into left and right. You can’t talk to each other because [00:18:55] you just end up fighting against me or you, or you automatically assume that they’re wrong. Because I, [00:19:00] I’d like to think we could probably all agree that the right answer most of the time is quite [00:19:05] in the middle. But where we just swing on extremes the whole time.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:19:10] one thing I find quite interesting is, let’s say you’re you’re [00:19:15] naturally left wing. Mhm. I find it quite interesting listening to [00:19:20] right wing stuff. Mhm. If I’m a left winger.

Sina Gilannejad: In terms of. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like the, the I listen to a lot of podcasts. In my case would be podcasts. And [00:19:30] it’s painful. It’s painful because it’s, you know, there’s your natural bias [00:19:35] is to listen to what you agree with. Yeah. But then that becomes a bit of an echo chamber. Yeah. [00:19:40] I’m very much interested in what the other side. If other side, if you like, inverted commas [00:19:45] are thinking and saying, yeah. And so but the weird thing about that is you [00:19:50] then do end up getting affected by that and actually moving towards that [00:19:55] direction a little bit more.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, yeah, you start to see exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You see the other side of the argument. Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:20:00] And you said, well, yeah, that actually that is a problem. I don’t have an answer from that, from [00:20:05] this extreme point of view here. So you’re right. It does drag you more into the middle. And that’s and that’s exactly what you need. You [00:20:10] need to be open. And you’ve just said it. The reason we don’t do it because it is really uncomfortable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s uncomfortable. I still get [00:20:15] I find it hard. It’s like a painful tooth. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s pushing it.

Sina Gilannejad: You [00:20:20] listen to a podcast like most of the time these days, we have it when we’re talking to a patient and [00:20:25] they obviously they all of a sudden say something, they get comfortable, then they say something and you’re like, I don’t agree [00:20:30] with that. But this is obviously not the place to get into a political argument with you or something like that, you know? And [00:20:35] that’s the thing, like even me, I’ve just straight away said a political argument. Yeah, I could have just had a discussion [00:20:40] and we’ve lost that a lot. And, and I to try [00:20:45] not to boil things down to one single causing factor. I do think [00:20:50] it’s probably in the political Leaders is the [00:20:55] political leaders benefit for that to be the case, to polarise people? [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I had a friend, I tell you where I first lost my innocence around [00:21:05] politics. I mean, being an Iranian, you’re gonna you’re born with [00:21:10] that. But but I had a friend. He was, um, quite political. His dad had been [00:21:15] something in government and then he was quite political. He was at LSE. Um and he was very much [00:21:20] a right winger. Um and you know back then it was like Thatcher time Right. But [00:21:25] you didn’t. You weren’t young and right wing. This guy was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today [00:21:30] it’s kind of changed. But back then, all young people were a bit left. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You got a mortgage and all [00:21:35] that? This guy was quite right wing, and he was standing for some president of, uh, [00:21:40] LSE Student Union or something.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, wow. He’s. Oh, he’s probably into it. Like I.

Payman Langroudi: Said.

Sina Gilannejad: Not just opinions. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he [00:21:45] said to me, come, come. We’ve got some. What is it, hustings. Whatever it is. Yeah. He said come and just [00:21:50] support me, you know, just like clap when I say something. So sure man. You know childhood friend. [00:21:55] Yeah. A few of us went and um, they introduced him and [00:22:00] they said, yeah. And representing the Green Party, him and I was like, what? Green [00:22:05] party? Yeah. He was the most right wing person I’ve ever come across. Yeah. And I kind [00:22:10] of couldn’t understand it. And he made his speech and then he came down and I went up to him and said, dude, what [00:22:15] the hell is this Green Party stuff? And he just looked at me and he goes, you don’t really think I was going to be a conservative [00:22:20] in LSE, do you?

Sina Gilannejad: Really?

Payman Langroudi: And I was like, what? And he went. You think I’m gonna win as a conservative, [00:22:25] right? Buddy, I lost so much innocence on that day. This 18 year [00:22:30] old. Yeah, yeah. True. Yeah. And and the pursuit of power was [00:22:35] was the thing that this dude was after. Yeah. And and and I saw it in its truest form. [00:22:40] You know, like it’s.

Sina Gilannejad: Scary, man. And I mean, that’s, like you said, the loss [00:22:45] of innocence. Obviously, you kind of get your eyes get open. It’s like, what the heck? It’s almost like you [00:22:50] want to not believe it. Yeah. You hear them on the movies and stuff like that. You don’t want to not believe it. Then all of a sudden [00:22:55] you got the files coming out and all this stuff. You’re like, wow, this is what we know now. Like, what don’t we know? It’s [00:23:00] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: I used to, I used to listen to this conspiracy thing. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: I was literally thinking.

Payman Langroudi: About years ago, years [00:23:05] ago. And the guy said, yeah, there are these Satanists who like kill babies. And I [00:23:10] was like, this guy’s an idiot.

Sina Gilannejad: What’s going on? We’d all say.

Payman Langroudi: That. Well, this guy’s like mainstream. [00:23:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You probably.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s crazy to think, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:23:20] remember telling my buddies, you know that your mobile is constantly recording everything you’re saying. [00:23:25] Yeah. And my my two closest friends, they got worried about me and they [00:23:30] had like an intervention. Yeah. They were like, dude, we’re really worried about you. You’ve become paranoid. [00:23:35] And then literally six months later, the Snowden Snowden stuff came out [00:23:40] and said, yeah, everything. Everything’s being recorded. So I went back to them. We pissed off. And [00:23:45] then it’s so weird. They both completely forgotten that conversation immediately. Of [00:23:50] course, you know, it’s weird how like that, you know, they call it the Overton window.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like shifts. What’s [00:23:55] what’s acceptable to talk about?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, massively. And you know what? Like I was actually thinking this [00:24:00] because obviously on the way here, um, I had my own podcast. [00:24:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I should have introduced you like that. I’m so sorry.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s all right.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t my most of the presenting [00:24:10] complaint, which was one of my favourite. I used to listen to that.

Sina Gilannejad: So sweet. Yeah. So me and, um, [00:24:15] Adam.

Payman Langroudi: Adam, who I had on this pod.

Sina Gilannejad: You did? And Adam, a lot of people will probably know from [00:24:20] his original thing that he had, which was, uh, the the positive [00:24:25] smiles club. Well, positive smiles club.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s right. And that’s [00:24:30] how I first met Adam and became friends with him was through that. So it was such a lovely. It just [00:24:35] brought. So it was at a time where I was a student and I was just doomscrolling on Dental [00:24:40] Instagram comparing my pegs of crime preps. If. Well pegs is is [00:24:45] giving it. They didn’t have the height to be a peg. It was just a stump of, uh, crime preps and [00:24:50] just getting so beaten up by how like terrible my skills were. And, [00:24:55] um, and then I saw Adams and it was just, it’s exactly what it is. Positive [00:25:00] smiles and, uh, talked to these amazing dentists that everybody respects and [00:25:05] to hear like some real true, it’s how they feel and how they actually [00:25:10] act and realising that they’re all human. And actually the beliefs that I have are so unrealistic. So, [00:25:15] um, from that, uh, met up with Adam and Leaders. We instantly bonded, instantly [00:25:20] gelled, really good friends. And then when I was I had a really struggled [00:25:25] in my foundation year, my year, um, after dental school, because I, I’ve, I really thrived [00:25:30] in dental school, um, socially, academically, I did quite well as well. [00:25:35] And, um, just everything really went my way. I was, I was really fortunate and I didn’t [00:25:40] get the imposter syndrome or anything like that, that everybody else got during the time. [00:25:45]

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s not just sounding big headed. I just had a really good time. But all of that hit me when I went [00:25:50] into PhD. You know, there was a big break over the summer, um, and [00:25:55] then lost a few skills as well. Came into the real world in dentistry. And, and it really affected [00:26:00] me. And the thing that made it worse for me was actually, I had a fantastic, I got [00:26:05] Manchester as my DCT, my, sorry, my PhD post, which was the, the hardest to come [00:26:10] by. I think I ranked like 12th in the country for um, the sjt and things [00:26:15] that you had to do to, to rank. Um, so I did so well in that I got the top place in the country. I had [00:26:20] the best practice, the best is the best nurse, lovely [00:26:25] patient. I had everything. So to have all that and still like feel so anxious [00:26:30] of extraction, so anxious for any treatment I did that I wasn’t going to go well. Patient was going to hate me. It [00:26:35] made me feel worse. I was like, I’ve got it’s so much better than everyone else and I’m still struggling. [00:26:40]

Sina Gilannejad: So like double down. And there came a really real point. [00:26:45] I was crying so many times a week, you know, I really, really struggled. [00:26:50] I had family things that were going on at the same time as well. And when they those [00:26:55] family things, thank God, got better. I still felt really bad. And that’s when it really hit [00:27:00] me like a massive weight. I was like, oh no, the problem is, is inside. It’s with me. [00:27:05] So I started therapy and started [00:27:10] to understand myself more, started to deal with that childhood stuff that I was really saying at the start that actually [00:27:15] all this help I was doing for other people was pushing down. Or [00:27:20] just maybe I wouldn’t say, you know, I had a lovely upbringing as well. Maybe I didn’t [00:27:25] have much going on back then, but I didn’t deal with any small thing and it just [00:27:30] built up. Um, and it led to that massive confidence thing. [00:27:35] Um, and I got scared. I said, if this is going to be the rest of my life, I [00:27:40] don’t know what I’m going to do. So that’s one of the massive drivers [00:27:45] that took me to seeking DCT. I [00:27:50] just I needed a DCT.

Payman Langroudi: Move on before you move on. Yeah, give me an insight. Like in your particular [00:27:55] case, what was the problem and what was the unlock? [00:28:00] I mean, was there like a perfectionism that you were trying to achieve? And [00:28:05] that came because of when you were a child, something happened or and then what was the unlock [00:28:10] understanding that that’s where the, the, the root of it was because one thing that we do a mental health [00:28:15] podcast. Me and Rona. And one thing I realised about mental health after having [00:28:20] a few conversations, is that the same stimulus can give two people totally different responses. [00:28:25] Yeah. Um, based on the way that you take that stimulus. And so [00:28:30] it doesn’t make any sense for me to say, hey, why, why did that bother you? Because it’s just something [00:28:35] so simple. Um, or, you know, one, one person can go through war and, and [00:28:40] come out of it, okay? And the next person can have their mom say something and [00:28:45] break up over it, you know? Well, give me your reflections on that, the process [00:28:50] of finding that out. Um, was it painful? Was it the opposite of painful? It [00:28:55] cathartic.

Sina Gilannejad: It it was painful, actually. [00:29:00] Yeah. So I listened, I listened a lot to your podcast on that mental [00:29:05] health. I know like how many professionals you get in as well. It’s so nice to hear their thoughts. And I think [00:29:10] you two have such a lovely relationship to not challenge each other, but you know each other enough [00:29:15] to call out something and, and explore that. And I love that. And, um, [00:29:20] I think, I think if I’m digging back to sort of the childhood kind of stuff, [00:29:25] you, you kind of, you touched on it before, you know, like you’re [00:29:30] in this area where politics feels so taboo, a lot of different opinions feel so taboo. [00:29:35] So you just want to be a people pleaser. You want to say the right thing to be on everyone’s [00:29:40] side and, and never get cancelled, things like that. Um, and that happened for so long that it [00:29:45] just, it just became my personality and.

Payman Langroudi: And it weighed [00:29:50] on you.

Sina Gilannejad: It weighed a lot. Yeah. And in dental school, I can’t [00:29:55] say I did much different, um, in terms of sort of sticking true to myself or having [00:30:00] my own like actual beliefs rather than trying to understand. Yeah, I’ve always [00:30:05] understand everyone, but always trying to agree to their point. And so that [00:30:10] was a massive thing. Another thing just [00:30:15] digging into perfectionism was, was, and still is my biggest difficulty. I, [00:30:20] I have a problem of starting so many new hobbies [00:30:25] or starting things, not being instantly amazing at it and kicking it to the kerb. But [00:30:30] when, when you’re in dental school, you have this massive [00:30:35] goal of becoming a dentist. And that is fantastic. It’s, it’s good motivation to get you through it. [00:30:40] So those rubbish coin preps, I just, I honestly, the crown preps were [00:30:45] my worst thing. I was so bad, so bad.

Payman Langroudi: And would you laugh at now. [00:30:50] Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. It’s so funny. And it would ruin it would ruin me. Like I remember I was in the [00:30:55] clinical skills lab in Bristol and, um, she’s not there anymore. She’s in a different [00:31:00] profession, but the, um, nurse that was in charge, um, [00:31:05] Adele, she’s such a dear friend to me. She would always be signing you in, signing you out and everything. [00:31:10] And she was so good at people’s mental health and everything because Clinical Skills lab gets to you, gets [00:31:15] to you like having.

Payman Langroudi: This time you’re doing everything.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. Seeing like how long on the [00:31:20] road actually is. And there’s this one time we came back, I think it was start of third year.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, [00:31:25] clinical skills lab is the phantom head. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we had to do [00:31:30] a full metal prep. Um, and we just got back from like summer holidays and I saw it and I looked at it, I [00:31:35] was like, I just got angry. I got filled with rage. And I said, Adele, I’m going. Where are you going? I’m going to the gym. I just need [00:31:40] to get rid of this energy. It’s like, you can’t, you can’t leave. You get in trouble. She was like, just try. I have tried. [00:31:45] And she said, no, no, no, it can’t be that bad. And I showed it to her and she just looked at it and she was like, okay, I’ll sign [00:31:50] you off. And I was like, right, no, I’ll take that as a, as a plus. Thank [00:31:55] you. And yeah, so, so, but, but you were in the environment. Everyone was trying to get better. [00:32:00] You have this goal to become a dentist. The, like the first hardest thing was actually getting into a dentist school. The [00:32:05] second thing is actually completing it. And then I got there, I practised, I did so much work [00:32:10] that made me such a good person, such a good dentist. Sorry, maybe not such a good person, such a good dentist. Um, [00:32:15] and like actually being able to do the, the, the preps and [00:32:20] everything like that. You can see the development. It’s great. That’s the nice thing about a practical job. You [00:32:25] can physically see yourself improving and that’s good motivation. And then became a dentist. [00:32:30] And then all of a sudden, one of the main drops that sort of led to the spiral [00:32:35] was I lost a massive goal. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because you’ve become a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Become a dentist [00:32:40] now, like now what? And, and all I did back in my life was set massive unattainable [00:32:45] goals, like goals that I thought that I couldn’t make but I could work towards. And like I said, [00:32:50] rugby was a huge part back in my life because, you know, you’re a young kid with all this testosterone [00:32:55] and energy and you need to put it towards something. And it was rugby. And being an Iranian, I hit puberty [00:33:00] fast. So that helped a lot. And then I somehow I then got to the [00:33:05] the top team in rugby and I was like, that’s the first big goal. So then I’ll do dentistry. And then I became a dentist. [00:33:10] And then all of a sudden I was at a point in my life where I didn’t really have a [00:33:15] massive goal for myself. I’m not talking about like finding.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:33:20] I get it.

Sina Gilannejad: You know, a relationship, finding a wife, it just a personal goal.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, and [00:33:25] I don’t think it’s talked about enough. Yeah. That that first day and first few months in [00:33:30] the PhD job. It’s hard, man. It’s hard. You’ve got no, no no one [00:33:35] around you anymore. I mean, you do write on that, on that.

Sina Gilannejad: But no one like on the same level. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: As you.

Sina Gilannejad: In this exact same place, same number.

Payman Langroudi: Of days. You know, the other thing, my daughter’s just announced she wants [00:33:45] to be a dentist. 15.

Sina Gilannejad: How does that make you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Uh. Happy, happy, happy in the end. Happy [00:33:50] in the end. But but but. 15. Yeah. Yeah. Until the day when [00:33:55] you arrive and feeds. 24.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, and, you know, [00:34:00] arguably she’s been working from 2013 to, to be top of her class or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. [00:34:05] You talk about like ten years of struggle.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Proper struggle. Yeah. We all know [00:34:10] getting into dental school now, a complete nightmare.

Sina Gilannejad: It was hard back then.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s a complete [00:34:15] nightmare. And then surviving dental school. Complete nightmare. And then you. And [00:34:20] then you get to this point, you’re like, Now I’m a dentist. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And suddenly [00:34:25] it’s not that interesting. Yeah, exactly. It’s one of the reasons I started enlightened in the childishness of that [00:34:30] feeling. Yeah. I was like, oh, I need more impact. Yeah. Um, but, but let’s [00:34:35] move on and, and sort of talk about, you know, the perfectionism [00:34:40] being on, on the one end, you know, like every, everything you are is your [00:34:45] biggest strength and your biggest weakness. Yeah. Your perfectionism is a massive strength. Yeah. Yeah. And yet, as [00:34:50] you’ve just discussed, a massive weakness, have you now learned to be more forgiving [00:34:55] of yourself because, you know, you can perfectionism to you could mean being the best [00:35:00] crown prepper in your practice. Yeah. Or it could be being the best crown [00:35:05] prep in the whole of Dental beauty. Yeah. Or in the whole of the UK or in the whole world. I [00:35:10] mean, it just goes on and on and on. It’s impossible to be perfect. So have you found yourself, [00:35:15] like, forgiving yourself a little bit more, being kinder to yourself? I think is that the unlock or is there a different [00:35:20] unlock?

Sina Gilannejad: I think I have not, I [00:35:25] only did a small stint of therapy, and I’m definitely gonna be going back [00:35:30] and making a regular thing, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you find your therapist? [00:35:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, so I used a practitioners health and, and that’s something I advocate [00:35:40] a lot on me and Adam’s podcast. Um, it’s a free NHS service for dental [00:35:45] and medical practitioners. Oh, really? Yeah. To use. And so you sign up, um, and [00:35:50] they, it’s about two month wait, three month wait, it was back two years ago, [00:35:55] which is not bad to get free cognitive behavioural therapy. So that’s what’s, that’s what they prescribed [00:36:00] me in a way to do an initial assessment and then see like, which way would go. And [00:36:05] the whole premise of it is that everybody knows your medic, everyone knows your dentist. Everything you know is confidential. [00:36:10] And they you don’t have to waste time explaining the stresses of your work, you know? [00:36:15] Um, so that was really nice. And the main thing for me was I was free to be honest, because I’ve just [00:36:20] started PhD. I’m living away from home. Yeah. You know, I got everything I wanted when I [00:36:25] was a kid, but by no means was there very much surplus. So that was a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:36:30] what did you learn? What did you learn? So you the signs, the early signs of.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I actually [00:36:35] learned what exactly was wrong with me, which is crazy because I [00:36:40] went in, I went in like a sociopath. I went in being like, they’re gonna say this. [00:36:45] I’m gonna tell them this, this, that, and they’re gonna say it’s because of this, this, this and that. I was like, [00:36:50] cocky about it. And I was like, I’m just not gonna help. I was, I’m definitely the worst patient. [00:36:55] And I went in and I thought at that [00:37:00] moment everything that was wrong with my life was my family issues, health, [00:37:05] health of my family issues, you know. Um, and [00:37:10] that once that was over, I’d be okay. That’s what I thought. [00:37:15] And the reason I actually then went to the therapist was because.

Payman Langroudi: It didn’t get better.

Sina Gilannejad: It didn’t get better. And [00:37:20] that, like you said, was that a relief? Was that a what? It was a massive crushing weight. That [00:37:25] was the moment where I was like, I remember so well [00:37:30] sitting in my room getting the call and everything was good, and [00:37:35] then just sitting and I was so happy. And then I hung up the phone and I just, I just remember just staring [00:37:40] off in the distance and just literally saying out loud shit, because it just hit me. I was [00:37:45] like, oh, this is it’s all inside. It’s me. It’s not [00:37:50] my external factors and things are going to get better once it’s done. It’s with me. And I’ve used so many things as an [00:37:55] excuse to mask that until now, like I can’t run away from it anymore. So then I got the [00:38:00] therapist, and when we talked, I talked about the family stuff the whole time. Sorry, I thought I would be talking [00:38:05] about the family stuff the whole time. And in that first session, I talked about it and [00:38:10] the whole premise of I’m going to do this, you know, I’m not going to do it justice right now. But [00:38:15] the main premise of cognitive behaviour therapy is really taking a thought that you [00:38:20] have. So me saying, I’m not a good dentist. Okay, why? Because [00:38:25] when I do a crime prep, it’s not perfect. Okay. What is perfect? Oh, [00:38:30] with this and this and much. Okay. What? Like did what you do still work? Yeah. Okay. Well, then [00:38:35] why are you upset about it? Can, you know you can get better? Yeah. And do you think that’s unrealistic? What you thought is. Yeah. So [00:38:40] it’s it’s d catastrophizing everything.

Payman Langroudi: Breaking it down.

Sina Gilannejad: Breaking it down, taking that thought, seeing [00:38:45] how unrealistic it is and how I actually don’t really care about that. And [00:38:50] then what do you do afterwards. And, and instantly that was the family stuff. So after I had, I think maybe [00:38:55] eight sessions after the first session, I didn’t talk about my family ever again. [00:39:00] I was like, at any time, like I said, that psychotic part of [00:39:05] being like, I’m gonna say this. They’re gonna say that never, ever once said anything that I thought. And [00:39:10] that blew my mind. It I, I got so much trust in that therapist. And I always say to my [00:39:15] patients, now, you know, and this is another topic we’ll get on later. But the whole like patient, [00:39:20] oh, the society outlook on dentists, how negative that is. [00:39:25] And I have a massive proponent. I am a massive believer. My a huge opinion. I have [00:39:30] working in hospital and working in practice. So being the referrer being the one you [00:39:35] refer to, the dentists are the worst people for this relationship that we have. Obviously [00:39:40] back in the day, it’s a hot topic. I should, I should have get through that. Back [00:39:45] in the day, dentistry was completely different. All right. You’ve all heard that story of [00:39:50] dentist did this without numbing, and they were on my chest and all that stuff. And we all know like the stuff that [00:39:55] patients can incorrectly perceive, but we can [00:40:00] all you have to understand that she absolutely was different back then. 100%. So people do have very [00:40:05] real trauma that comes about it and they say this, this and that. But the last dentist, and [00:40:10] then from what I’ve seen, what most dentists just shovel the shit.

Sina Gilannejad: They’ll [00:40:15] say, oh, they did this, they did that or this, this, that. There’s always excuses. There’s never [00:40:20] there. Obviously there is, but it’s hardly ever listening, understanding, first [00:40:25] of all, acknowledging to the patient like, that sounds like a lot. I’m really sorry that that’s what you [00:40:30] went through. Um, if it means anything, seeing from what your dentist did, I [00:40:35] don’t necessarily think they did anything wrong. It was just a really tough situation for you and them. [00:40:40] And unfortunately that relationship broke down. I’d like to hope that we can do something different, um, and [00:40:45] get on board with that. And that’s it. You’ve not put down another dentist, you’ve not done that. You’ve [00:40:50] not had the upsell here, upsell there, You know, I’ve had in practice so [00:40:55] much bad talk about hospital. Mhm. I, [00:41:00] I know I work in practice now. I know how busy and crazy practice is. And [00:41:05] you are the first interface a patient comes to. And when you can’t [00:41:10] solve the problem and you have to tell the patient, there’s this much weight, it’s really hard. And the patient [00:41:15] comes back like, oh, they left the root in there and blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. And then it’s so easy to talk bad about hospital. But [00:41:20] I’ve also been in hospital where they talk bad about dentists. So I’m so fortunate that I took that experience to see [00:41:25] all the sides. Um, and I think the one, the main thing that we can control is how [00:41:30] we treat each other. Patients will, you know, if a patient [00:41:35] has decided they don’t want to like you, they won’t like you.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:41:40] DCT.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT was such a journey. Best decision I’ve ever made. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sina Gilannejad: Best decision I’ve ever made. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you’re. Is that your advice [00:41:50] for everyone.

Sina Gilannejad: My my advice, and you’ll hear this a lot in me and Adam’s podcast. Me [00:41:55] and Adam’s podcast to to generalise it. This was the premise we had was I [00:42:00] had just finished PhD, had a terrible time mentally and was in a place [00:42:05] where I felt like, like you said, the main thing you said was you just don’t have that person [00:42:10] there to talk to anymore, to rationalise, to be like, oh, I’m feeling exactly the same and this, this, that and this. And [00:42:15] that’s what I wanted to fix. I needed to hear that. So the premise was Adam had just started PhD [00:42:20] and I had just started DCT. So as we’d start, we’d both reflect on [00:42:25] week on week. Yeah. And obviously I had the advantage [00:42:30] of having done PhD. So when Adam was feeling this way, I’d tell him about my experience. And through [00:42:35] that we shared it with everyone else. And that was the main feedback that we got. So many people said, [00:42:40] I just really needed to hear this. Like, it was so nice to hear that I’m not the only one. And this advice that [00:42:45] you sort of said to try and get ahead was so good, because I’m a keen dentist, [00:42:50] but I’m not sitting at night scrolling through all these articles [00:42:55] and things like that and listening to all these Dental like, like, you know, the meaty [00:43:00] like, like an amazing podcast like this or Protrusive dental podcast where they’re actually [00:43:05] giving you amazing advice. I just can’t like, I just, I was like, I don’t want to think about dentistry anymore, which is why I [00:43:10] listened to a lot of the mental health one that you have. Um, and Adam is much more keen, but he’s very [00:43:15] realistic. So we went through that and my DCT one. So after [00:43:20] PhD.

Payman Langroudi: Just explain to see one and two, like what happens? Do you zoom in on a particular [00:43:25] area?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. So to, to summarise it, if you want to do [00:43:30] Dental core training, which is usually ends you up in a hospital or the community dental practice setting, it’s [00:43:35] the only requirement it is, is if you ever want to specialise through a hospital pathway, [00:43:40] you need to have done DCT one and two.

Payman Langroudi: There’s like, like house jobs in our day, [00:43:45] right?

Sina Gilannejad: It’s exactly that. It’s replaced what used to be a senior house officer. Okay, it’s exactly that. Okay. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what subject were you?

Sina Gilannejad: So I, when I finished PhD, I [00:43:55] was lost. So I said, I want to get better at extractions and see what everything else I can do. And [00:44:00] I want to teach. So you the way it is, you’ve got a massive list [00:44:05] of all the posts in the country that offer txnrd1, and each one of them will say, this is DC [00:44:10] one in restorative, this is DC one in Max, this is DC one in oral medicine, every single [00:44:15] speciality or a combination. And that’s what Cardiff was. I had six months, uh, oral [00:44:20] surgery and oral medicine. And then the next six months [00:44:25] was um, was more oral surgery. It was restorative. [00:44:30] It was mainly it was just restorative. But I still did like the emergency clinics and all. Yeah. There [00:44:35] wasn’t, I was lucky there was no uncle and I didn’t do maxfax. That was the main thing. I didn’t do. Maxfax. It was it was [00:44:40] the one thing I missed out. And I had a blast. First of all, taking [00:44:45] the foot off the pedal from practice because hospital. One of the main things [00:44:50] is it is definitely a slower pace. It is much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Slower, more social.

Sina Gilannejad: Way more social, which [00:44:55] I thrived off. I love it, I love sticking my head in here and having a gander and talking to this and then like treating one patient, [00:45:00] go into the next room treating another patient. Loved it, loved it, really thrived in that aspect. And you know, the [00:45:05] people pleaser in me had a great time. Yeah. And, um, and I learned so [00:45:10] much, like once you finished dental school, all those stupid lectures that you just had to learn all of [00:45:15] a sudden then you do a year in practice, you start to see actually what is important. You start [00:45:20] to filter out things and then actually you become more interested. I hated oral medicine in dental [00:45:25] school because I just was so bad at remembering things, and there were so many small details to, to [00:45:30] learn. And then I went into Cardiff and I had the best time.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis, did [00:45:35] you have him?

Sina Gilannejad: I had my first of all, I had his book and the first day I was working there.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis was one of the best teachers. [00:45:40]

Sina Gilannejad: He.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop. Not just teachers of oral medicine. Unbelievable. [00:45:45] Teacher. I know he was. He was Dean and all that, but.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, he was he was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything. But when I was there, he just come. He’d just come [00:45:50] from Bristol, I think, or Glasgow. He, he was, he, he was [00:45:55] such a brilliant teacher. Every single person in my year and in our cohort [00:46:00] the, the years around. Yeah. All of us or medicine was our favourite subject [00:46:05] because of Mike Lewis.

Sina Gilannejad: And it shapes you. It does.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant teacher.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. And they always say like, if you ever end [00:46:10] up specialising, someone asks you who taught you because they just inspired you. So true. That’s it. Because [00:46:15] all aspects of dentistry, it’s pretty fun. And if you actually get inspired to [00:46:20] learn about it, it’s great. So Mike Lewis, the first one I met when I went to Cardiff, um, and then, [00:46:25] uh, Phil Atkin I met as well. I think he would have been there at that time as well. And [00:46:30] I fell in love. Mike Lewis something that he above his teaching, above everything is the charisma [00:46:35] that man has. Oh my God. Yeah. He can speak. Oh you know what. Thank God he’s on our side. [00:46:40] If he was like a Nazi or something.

Speaker 5: And it’d be over.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be over. He’d probably turn the whole country. That’s how [00:46:45] much charisma he has. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, uh, so yeah, I, I had a, the [00:46:50] oral medicine, the subject I hated the most. All of a sudden I was researching and [00:46:55] I was looking and I was really into it and I loved it. I started to understand it so much more. Oral [00:47:00] surgery, oral surgery is funny. I didn’t get any [00:47:05] surgical experience that I wanted. I just had a lot of simple extractions. I got [00:47:10] some like surgical here and there, no weights or anything like that. So that was a big reason for me going for.

Payman Langroudi: At least you got good traction. [00:47:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And, and you know what? And the nurses, they would throw a fit [00:47:20] if it went surgery would be like, oh, it’s gonna be so much effort. I’m doing this that so the fear of, of hearing [00:47:25] that made you make sure you luxated properly elevated properly. And I got very good at [00:47:30] simple extractions, which is definitely a good the foundation you need to then move into Surgicals. That’s [00:47:35] right. And then Restoratives as well. I, I got to see everything you could do, you [00:47:40] know, the obviously just the secondary pathway in itself was amazing. And [00:47:45] then something I really fell in love with in restorative was getting to treat the oncology patients. [00:47:50] These people that had radical head and neck therapy like.

Payman Langroudi: Radiotherapy. [00:47:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Obturators, these crazy things, you know, half their face cut off and somehow these prosthesis [00:48:00] put back in and Cardiff, uh, one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced [00:48:05] um lab in the country. They have 3D printers out the wazoo, scanners out [00:48:10] the wazoo. They’re doing charity work for dogs that have had half their face shot off. [00:48:15] And really in Puerto Rico somewhere it was, I can’t remember. And they’ve got like a skeleton [00:48:20] mesh framework of that. And they send it off. They do so much. It’s a fantastic. They’re they’re also [00:48:25] now working with the general surgeons and the surgeons to make custom prosthesis, 3D printing. [00:48:30] Fantastic. That was amazing to work for. And yeah, so I got so much confidence [00:48:35] through that. And I always. And from that experience, I kept telling Adam on the podcast. Look, when [00:48:40] it comes when you just start PhD, you have to apply for DCT. So soon [00:48:45] you won’t know if you actually want to do it or not, but just apply for it. It’s free, apply for it. And if you don’t want to do it, don’t [00:48:50] do the stuff. That’s fine. At least your name’s there.

Sina Gilannejad: If you want to specialise, great. But [00:48:55] most of the time going into hospital makes you not want to specialise. And that’ll be the consultants [00:49:00] that tell you themselves because they say, look, what do you want to do? I want to be really good at restorative. It’s okay. Learn here, go [00:49:05] do it privately or become a staff grade here. You don’t have to specialise so much time, so much money [00:49:10] is what you want to do. You don’t actually need to specialise for oh, okay. So you [00:49:15] start to learn what you can do. And that’s a massive thing for oral surgery as well. So the advice would [00:49:20] be if you’re dead set, then yeah, you do DCT because you need specialise. If not, do it because [00:49:25] you learn so much about the career. At least you know where you’re sending your patients. You know, the state that the NHS [00:49:30] is in right now as well. And I it would never go down, [00:49:35] but I really and I was told this as well. I I really believe my dk2 was in Max Fox, and I think there [00:49:40] should be at least a six month rotation in Max Fox.

Payman Langroudi: Mandatory.

Sina Gilannejad: Mandatory. [00:49:45] It makes you an amazing. It. I was at the end. I was like, I don’t [00:49:50] have surgical experience. I want to do another DCT because I’ve got the freedom to move around. [00:49:55] I want to do it somewhere good. And because I think I’ll never go near Max Fox again, or sorry, [00:50:00] I’ll never go near Max Fox if I don’t do it now. I want to try Max Fox. And I was humming and eyeing and I [00:50:05] was. I was tearing myself apart, just trying to think like, is it worth it? Like I’ve heard these horror stories and everything. And then [00:50:10] one of the oral surgeons finally said to me, they looked at me and they just said, look, whatever [00:50:15] you choose, you’re going to learn clinically, you will 100% max. You’re going to learn [00:50:20] so much about yourself. And we said in the way here, you did Max Fox stint as well, and you said, it [00:50:25] makes a man out of you. It it absolutely does. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it puts stuff into [00:50:30] context, man.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I needed for a perfectionist. Yeah, that’s exactly what for someone that’s [00:50:35] scared of the worst case scenario. What’s the worst case scenario? Someone could die.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Go [00:50:40] to the max box. You’ll see the worst case scenario.

Payman Langroudi: Scare the shit out of you, mate.

Sina Gilannejad: I was so scared. So [00:50:45] I had a lovely, lovely friend. I still have a lovely friend in 2 or 3 years above [00:50:50] me. Name is Maria. And I put up my Instagram. You know, I we we got, we [00:50:55] got really good traction with the audience on Instagram since our podcast. And I put on Instagram, I was like, [00:51:00] I didn’t know where to put. I was like, oh, I should put a store on Instagram. I said, anyone know anywhere good for Max wax? Um, [00:51:05] and then she popped up and she just said, Go to Chesterfield. I was like, what the hell is Chesterfield? [00:51:10] I’ve never heard of Chesterfield, bro. Um, and um, I said, okay, why? [00:51:15] She said, you know, there’s no Night-Time, uncles, no weekend uncles, you’re [00:51:20] on call, but really supportive practice place and you’re only one of two [00:51:25] seats. So you’ll have so much.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll see a lot.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ll see a lot, do a lot and do a lot. [00:51:30] Yeah, absolutely. And then any of the major stuff, like the really, really crazy stuff that comes through and he goes to Sheffield. It’s [00:51:35] like sick.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of a good point. Yeah. Because you you sometimes think if I go to a major [00:51:40] teaching centre, that’s the place to learn, but that’s the place to see. Exactly. Not [00:51:45] the place to do 100%.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s exactly it. And that was another thing that was told to me when I [00:51:50] was in Cardiff. They said, go to a district general. So District General Hospital for people that know is just a [00:51:55] smaller hospital. It’s not a city centre hospital like a London one. It’s like somewhere in like a [00:52:00] Surrey’s own hospital or something like that. And it’s a smaller hospital, which means you’ve got less patients [00:52:05] going through. And for some really maybe not great reason. Um, [00:52:10] good for you. I don’t think it would have been maybe it’s been ten years plus now, but [00:52:15] before these district journeys would be doing all the major surgeries. So if you’ve got like these 12 hour [00:52:20] head and neck surgeries, they do them. But then something called centralisation happened. And actually all the major [00:52:25] surgeries, those like the major cancer surgeries, all that they have to be done in a central hospital. [00:52:30] So again, those were sent to Sheffield, which meant that I didn’t get much experience in the cancer [00:52:35] surgeries I did because I took like some weekends off and I actually went and saw them [00:52:40] and. But I didn’t like so keen. Yeah, no, just to see it. And then I’d be like, yeah, good.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super [00:52:45] interesting. It’s super interesting. It’s, but to, to, to build on your point, I, I went to, uh, [00:52:50] I mean, it was a place for underprivileged people [00:52:55] in Iran. My, my uncle was a dentist. And, uh, in one [00:53:00] day I was, I was second year dental student in one day I took out 45 teeth. [00:53:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Amazing. Which is what I did in five years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, [00:53:10] you know, there was a queue outside and my uncle would go outside and inject everyone in the queue so they’d [00:53:15] be fully numb by the time they literally standing in the street getting injected by him. It [00:53:20] was the government, you know, like the, the, the, the, the sort of safety net government thing, only [00:53:25] extractions. That’s what it was. But, uh, you learn right when you learn when you do. [00:53:30] Yeah. So. Okay. So you one thing, you’ve [00:53:35] got a responsibility here insomuch as a lot of people are going to come [00:53:40] to you and ask for advice. Mhm. Even in your limited career, I mean, you’re you’re [00:53:45] still a baby, right? Yeah. Mhm. But because of the podcast and all of that, people are [00:53:50] going to come and ask advice. Yeah. And there’s a responsibility in giving that advice. And one [00:53:55] thing I would always tell anyone who’s asking for advice is to bear in mind [00:54:00] the bias of the person you’re asking.

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of makes sense anyway, [00:54:05] right? If I ask you what I should do, you tell me what you did. Yeah. And you give me that. [00:54:10] It makes sense because that’s all you know. Yeah. Yeah. But as the person giving the advice, you do [00:54:15] need to sort of bear that in mind. Like, like discount for that bias. [00:54:20]

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because, you know, one guy might have fitted to do what you [00:54:25] did. Mhm. But then like, for instance, your wife Mantsebo shouldn’t do any of [00:54:30] this, right? She went to.

Sina Gilannejad: She went straight into.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. Yeah. Yeah. And and the benefit that she got in practice [00:54:35] while you were doing this stuff might be right for someone who, who gives who’s coming [00:54:40] for advice 100%. But that whole advice bias thing, because, [00:54:45] you know, bear in mind from my from my position, yeah, I get lots and lots and lots and lots and lots [00:54:50] of people asking me for advice. What should I do next? I’m not going to tell all of them to start, you know, like [00:54:55] Dental supply companies. Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. But if I, if I just [00:55:00] told them what I did. Yeah. Which a lot of people do, you know, then everyone gets the same advice [00:55:05] from you.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s an important responsibility of someone in your position. And you’re only [00:55:10] newly in this position.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I graduated in what is it, [00:55:15] 24 years. 2022, bro. It was like, it’s just about to be four years since I [00:55:20] graduated. So that’s why I’m very conscious not to come on here and talk like, uh, Bill gates or someone. [00:55:25] I am a I’m still a Dental baby. But and this was what the podcast was so amazing [00:55:30] for, because we talked to those other people, I talked to so many other people and I had Adam and [00:55:35] the main, the main advice most of the time, especially for the young ones, is hospital [00:55:40] versus general practice. Yeah, I’ve done both now and even when I was in hospital because [00:55:45] I saw it. So most people want to do restorative. And I asked him, what do you want to do? Restorative? Okay. [00:55:50] Do you want to treat head and neck cancer patients? No. You’ll do more cases in practice. How [00:55:55] do you get good at something? Repetition. I get to take out tons of teeth [00:56:00] in hospital because that’s all we do. That’s repetition. That’s. I needed to go to that hospital. [00:56:05] Maxfax you can’t do in a practice, so have to go to hospital.

Sina Gilannejad: But if you want to get good at restorative, [00:56:10] then do restorative, stay in a general practice, do the work. If you can afford the courses, do the courses [00:56:15] and you’ll get there. You and you will get there much faster. To become a restorative [00:56:20] consultant. You’re the main things you’re getting is much more responsibility. You have to [00:56:25] oversee all the staff grades and everyone that’s. And everyone getting referred from the country to that, to that [00:56:30] to your place. Yes. You get to try some crazy innovative stuff and you’ve got the protection of the hospital behind [00:56:35] you. But if you want to do smile makeovers, you [00:56:40] go to a hospital for get good at the basics in general practice. Get good at [00:56:45] making getting people out of pain. Get good at taking teeth out. Um, so that when things go [00:56:50] wrong, you can just take it out at least. Um, and then invest in these courses. There’s [00:56:55] so many courses. The hardest, the hardest thing would be to choose which course to go on. Um, and for [00:57:00] that one, you just have to talk to people or specialise.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Or specialised. But Payman [00:57:05] what a lot of the awakening moment for me was, um, [00:57:10] I had a, I only had him for one teaching session and he said to me, my biggest regret [00:57:15] in becoming a specialist was um, rushing to become a specialist. He said, I [00:57:20] did the straight pathway. I did dental school training year then into the speciality pathway. [00:57:25] Oh, sorry. One two. Into the speciality pathway. He didn’t take a break in between. He said I regretted that so much. [00:57:30] I could have specialised at any time I wanted. Yes, I was fresher, yes. I wouldn’t have had a family and stuff like that. But I’ve had [00:57:35] my family and everything.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s the regret?

Sina Gilannejad: The regret was doing it too much, he said. Too quick because he could have [00:57:40] been in practice for a while, learned that stuff, get good at the basics and then do it or take [00:57:45] things chill. Like he’s got all this responsibility. You take time off. A half a dozen [00:57:50] people just died for some reason.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about specialising is expensive. Yeah, massively. That’s it. [00:57:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really it. It’s hard. Expensive. Anyone can do it. I know people, I know people who [00:58:00] knew nothing and no one. If you like that phrase. Yeah, [00:58:05] specialised and you everything and everyone. Absolutely.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:58:10] went from NHS practice to full mouth rehab. Yeah. In Harley Street [00:58:15] because of a three year course. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. [00:58:20] Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Um, I get your point. You don’t have to. Some of the best dentists [00:58:25] I know aren’t specialists, right? You can you can go to Spear and Kois and and a [00:58:30] bunch of other courses here and practice. Practice really important. Yeah. [00:58:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the it’s just a way of trying to take pressure off those young dentists [00:58:40] because that’s the pressure I had. You get taught in a, you [00:58:45] know, all the dental schools in the UK, you can have your opinions and which ones which. But all of them are [00:58:50] global. You know, they’re up there, they’re up there. They’re top, top ten, top 20. [00:58:55] They’re absolute institutions. So you’re going to learn from really [00:59:00] successful and really good clinicians. Obviously some of them we know are rubbish, but [00:59:05] you’re going to and you’re going to be inspired to become a specialist. So you come out thinking that’s the pathway next. That’s the next [00:59:10] big goal. And then in my head, I was like, is that the next big goal? I guess maybe, [00:59:15] maybe that will help me. And when I went into hospital, I started to see I [00:59:20] could do it. But I don’t know if that would feel what [00:59:25] this hole is at the moment. I’m still looking for that.

Payman Langroudi: So are you looking to be [00:59:30] restorative?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I want to be perfectionist. [00:59:35] I want to be able to be good and [00:59:40] predictable with as many things as I can.

Payman Langroudi: Um, like a super generalist.

Sina Gilannejad: I [00:59:45] think.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you considered a year course aspire crystal. [00:59:50] Yeah, I have.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m at a place unfortunately where financially I can’t [00:59:55] commit to it yet because I’ve got a lot of financial commitments that I have made or want [01:00:00] to make, and I, and I don’t want to rush into things [01:00:05] I really don’t from, from all the advice that I got from these, you know, accomplished [01:00:10] staff grades and specialists in hospital, it’s [01:00:15] made me just realise that it’s not a race. And actually I’ve realised that. And [01:00:20] and one of the biggest parts of my healing has been realising that maybe dentistry wasn’t [01:00:25] everything. It wasn’t as important to me as I [01:00:30] wanted it to be.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean?

Sina Gilannejad: It means that I. I thought [01:00:35] it needed to be my life’s work and passion. Mhm. But then after Max factor, then realising [01:00:40] how quickly these things can go away and actually. And [01:00:45] after getting married, I was kind of like, oh, I like this a lot more than dentistry. [01:00:50] And and it’s okay. And I want to be fulfilled by the work that I do, which [01:00:55] I was in hospital and the skills that it’s given me. I, I am in general practice [01:01:00] now, but I want to be fulfilled and let it pay [01:01:05] for the life that I want to live. And [01:01:10] that’s a life that I think I’m still trying to figure out which [01:01:15] direction that is. Is that a non I love teaching. Teaching was the best and Cardiff. [01:01:20] I got so much opportunity in Chesterfield. I got to teach a lot of the Sheffield grads [01:01:25] as well, and it was so nice because I felt like I was healing myself [01:01:30] at the same time by trying to give like the advice that I wish I got back then. [01:01:35] And, and I think a lot of me wants to [01:01:40] invest more into that side of things. So I’ve not ruled out hospital. Um, but [01:01:45] it was really nice to, it is really nice to come to general [01:01:50] practice and I almost started as an PhD again. Yeah. The first three months was so [01:01:55] hard getting used to.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Tell me about that to Dental beauty. You’ve got [01:02:00] a principal there.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. So I’ve been working in Dalston and I’m working in Basildon. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: On two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Two different, both Dental beauties.

Payman Langroudi: Are they both the same principle or two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Two different principles as [01:02:10] well. And um enjoying it very much in both places.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a coincidence or [01:02:15] was that like.

Sina Gilannejad: It was thankfully, because, uh, my wife has been here for multiple [01:02:20] years and she was working with Dental Beauty as well. She got to know a lot of them [01:02:25] as a small circle. Yeah. And so she told me that wants to go for. Yeah. And that’s it. And they were the first [01:02:30] ones I applied for and I got them. And a massive thing that I could bring to them was my sedation experience [01:02:35] and, um, an oral surgery experience. So, um, a lot of my work [01:02:40] is general and then the majority of the, the work I do extra is the extraction. [01:02:45] So I do the wisdom teeth. I did a surgical extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you fully confident with [01:02:50] wisdom teeth?

Sina Gilannejad: Like it’s a whole different because, because like I said, I didn’t [01:02:55] do any surgical in DC one. All my surgical experience with DC two. That was one year. Yeah. Um, and [01:03:00] obviously in that year, you got to get, you know, the speed of things, getting on call, going to A&E [01:03:05] and stuff and the surgical stuff. There’s a whole other aspect of Maxfax. But I got so much experience. [01:03:10] I got taught by someone who is absolutely my best [01:03:15] friend now, um, is Andy. He’s he’s a staff grade. He’s [01:03:20] everything I think that I want to have, like, I want to farm. I want to be [01:03:25] able to like, just get in and do anything and, and, and be the one to save the day and stuff if it can’t [01:03:30] come out and, and we get on so well. And, and I was he [01:03:35] just let me be the lead surgeon. And no matter what, he’d always be there for me. And, and a massive thing about [01:03:40] learning is, yes, the, the repetition, the practice, but just knowing there’s [01:03:45] a safety net, the idea of knowing me, especially like for me anyway, I can only really [01:03:50] compare it to, well, I’ve done all aspects now, but knowing that someone’s there for you to [01:03:55] save the day for an extraction makes you actually go for it and do it properly. And, and he [01:04:00] was a massive thing for me. And having not having that safety net now is [01:04:05] so scary.

Payman Langroudi: You find that difficult.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, it’s it’s scary. And, you know, I’ve [01:04:10] had, you know, teeth Did something. I got told I’m a [01:04:15] very through my prime. What was it? Throw my toys out the pram kind of person. [01:04:20] So you know if the exception doesn’t go right for me, if I leave a retained root of an eight, you know, [01:04:25] or it’s like massive, dense bone and nothing’s moving, I have to leave it behind. I take it to heart really badly [01:04:30] and it’s still a problem. I’m getting better with it every time. But, um, that happened in practice and [01:04:35] patients fine. And she’s so lovely. Um, I was, I was almost taking it [01:04:40] more to heart. I did take away more to heart than she did. And it came to a point where I had to check myself so she wouldn’t [01:04:45] start consoling me. And after that, I definitely hit a crossroad [01:04:50] where I was like, I kind of feel like I’m either never going to be the [01:04:55] special interest oral surgeon and do these again, or I’m this is where [01:05:00] I, I buckle down, book more in and learn and show myself that I can [01:05:05] do it. And thankfully I did that. And after the next week or two, um, I did like a [01:05:10] few more wisdom teeth and I actually went as expected and it brought a lot of confidence back, but it’s still so [01:05:15] scary. It is still scary.

Payman Langroudi: Listening to you. My, my first instinct is someone [01:05:20] like you who’s comfortable with flaps and all of that. Mhm. Implants, man. [01:05:25] Learn implants. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And a lot of people have told me that.

Payman Langroudi: And implants, man. I mean, [01:05:30] like, like super accelerated implants. Like, like make that the number one goal for the next [01:05:35] five years. Yeah. Yeah. Now, listen, you don’t have to do.

Sina Gilannejad: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: Go. [01:05:40] Go into endo. Yeah. Go into endo. Yeah, yeah. Like make that the number one. Yeah. For the next five years [01:05:45] or whatever. But someone like you who’s very super comfortable with blood and and oral [01:05:50] surgery, you’re already sort of.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re [01:05:55] not. I got the basics. I got halfway there. Yeah. You’ve got the basics.

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve known my anatomy. Like you said. I know how [01:06:00] to stop things when they go wrong. And and all my consultants were saying the same thing. They said, you know, you’re the [01:06:05] person that should be doing implants. You know, you’ve done the max stock’s trading. If you [01:06:10] just do the chorus then that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Like why are you all in on implants.

Sina Gilannejad: I should and you [01:06:15] know what?

Payman Langroudi: I’m stopping you.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I like implants, I just.

Payman Langroudi: What do you.

Sina Gilannejad: Mean I don’t know. I, I. [01:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I don’t like implants and I do like, uh, what, what? [01:06:25]

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what.

Sina Gilannejad: I that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Listen, you like whatever you’re very [01:06:30] good at. Yeah, yeah. You don’t like implants because you don’t have implants. Yeah, but you’re nowhere [01:06:35] near like you. That that same, that same sort of, um, you know, they say do difficult [01:06:40] things and comfort zone. That same comfort zone that you jumped out of to do your oral surgery [01:06:45] is now implants and you have to like implants is such a big subject [01:06:50] here that you have to keep on doing that, keep on doing that. Five years, not really [01:06:55] very long. No, no. Yeah. But accelerate like like go all in, [01:07:00] go all in on it.

Sina Gilannejad: That makes sense. And obviously I.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you go all in on, you’ll enjoy. Yeah, [01:07:05] yeah. And implants happen to be something that like, make a massive difference to people’s [01:07:10] lives. Yeah. Yeah. There aren’t enough implantologists in the.

Sina Gilannejad: Uk, and it’s becoming more of an expectation [01:07:15] that every dentist should or every practice at least should have someone that does implants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:20]

Sina Gilannejad: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s massive cash in it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I, what I, what I do worry [01:07:25] about for implantologists is the risks are high. Yeah. And, and someone like you who [01:07:30] suffers anxiety with risk. But you’ve been, you’ve been through that with oral surgery. Yeah. But but [01:07:35] but the risks are high. I mean, that’s.

Sina Gilannejad: What I’m worried.

Payman Langroudi: About. The next day you’ve got a big case. [01:07:40] Yeah. Tonight you can’t sleep late. Stuff like stuff like [01:07:45] that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. But in saying that, like booking myself impacted wisdom teeth still gives [01:07:50] me the same, like maybe some of the sun. Yeah. The thrill. Now it’s a thrill rather than an anxiety. [01:07:55] And I can’t sleep the night before. And the more I do, the more I sleep, so I know I can get through it. So it [01:08:00] is definitely something I should think is the next step.

Payman Langroudi: But for someone like you, someone who’s been through the steps you’ve been [01:08:05] through. Yeah. Yeah. And do you notice what I’m saying about like, I’m not telling you to go [01:08:10] manufacture implants, which is what I did.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But for someone like you. Yeah. [01:08:15] By the way, do anything but do dive heavily, deeply [01:08:20] into 100 practices. If you want to do that and dive deeply into [01:08:25] perio, if you want to do that, but dive heavily, deeply in like there’s no excuse [01:08:30] now. Yeah. You’ve done DCT. You’ve done some general practice deciding [01:08:35] which one of these you like or not. Come on man.

Sina Gilannejad: I think that’s exactly [01:08:40] the point that I’m at. I’m. Pick one. I’m scared. I’m scared of the commitment. And and that’s. And that’s honestly [01:08:45] the truth.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not scared of committing. You just got married. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s the easiest decision [01:08:50] I’ve ever made.

Payman Langroudi: Old. Were you when you got married?

Sina Gilannejad: I was, I, uh, last year. Last year, 27. [01:08:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Young. Young.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think especially in this day and age, definitely [01:09:00] young.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t some of your friends or parents or whatever tell you, hey, bit young?

Sina Gilannejad: Well, my friends in Northern [01:09:05] Ireland, you either get pregnant at 16 or then you get married at 20. You know something? [01:09:10] So, um, it’s all about, uh, relatively, isn’t [01:09:15] it? But, um, they when when [01:09:20] you marry the person that I did, as soon as they met her, they understood.

Payman Langroudi: I love you, [01:09:25] I love you, I get it, I get it, but, but what I’m after [01:09:30] is like the I remember getting married. Yeah. I remember thinking it’s a big step. [01:09:35] It’s a big, big step.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, yeah. Massive.

Payman Langroudi: You know, not not I don’t mean the wedding. [01:09:40] No being married.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Big step. And I was on this like delay as long as possible [01:09:45] moment in my life. But but you seem to like the opposite. Like jump in, [01:09:50] I think.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think I’m an all [01:09:55] or nothing person. And I think that, like you were saying, it’s a benefit and it’s a it’s a big negative as well. Um, [01:10:00] it means that right now I, I need to go all in or nothing into something. Implants make sense, but I’m like, well, [01:10:05] what if what if I can’t do this stuff anymore? But but I’m very much going towards what [01:10:10] you said for sure. And it’s been heavy on my mind. But when it comes to marrying [01:10:15] man, I don’t know if she’s gonna kill me for talking about it so much, but it was such an [01:10:20] easy decision. Like she understood me instantly as [01:10:25] a person and understood things about me that I didn’t understand about myself.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And [01:10:30] and aside from that, the people that she’s brought into my life, her friends, [01:10:35] her family has only been even better. Uh, [01:10:40] you know, I probably would have never met you. That’s true for her. And, um, you know, [01:10:45] her, her, all her immediate friends, her closest friends are now my friends. Um, [01:10:50] and it, it was an easy decision to make, and it was very quick [01:10:55] to see that it was the right decision. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about going [01:11:00] forward.

Sina Gilannejad: Going forward, it’s a scary topic. That’s the thing I’m most scared about.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:11:05] you want kids?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, eventually.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to maybe [01:11:10] open a practice? Like there’s two of you two dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m scared to open a practice [01:11:15] because.

Payman Langroudi: It might make sense to dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: It makes so much sense, and. But I don’t know. Is [01:11:20] the money there? Is it as profitable as it used to be? A lot of people say it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Not not like it [01:11:25] used to be.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, nothing’s really as profitable, is it. That’s true. But if it’s profitable, fine. But my [01:11:30] biggest concern is that I really enjoy or the kind of [01:11:35] person I am. Everything that I’ve said so far, a 9 to 5 suits me really well, because at 5:00, [01:11:40] I shut off. I don’t have to worry about anything else. I’ve got patients the next day.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:11:45] the thing is, you could you could land on your feet. I mean, there are some practices where the associates [01:11:50] are just so super happy, so super happy. It’s possible. But the best way, [01:11:55] the best execution of of the long term associate is what we call the super [01:12:00] associate, right? And the super associate comes with a bunch of Instagram like [01:12:05] marketing.

Sina Gilannejad: So loads of places are looking for how many followers you have now. Yeah, that’s a requirement [01:12:10] that’s on your marketing.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s a real thing. Because if you, if you can, if you can bring the patience [01:12:15] because you’re marketing so good. Yeah. Then you can walk into any practice.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100% and they’ll make room [01:12:20] for you.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And it makes sense for them to make room for you. And you can negotiate terms and all that. And [01:12:25] that’s one of the best lies in the whole wide world. Yeah. Of course it means learning Instagram. Yeah. And [01:12:30] you need to like with that. If you’re saying that’s the guy you want to be the long term [01:12:35] associate, you need to look at Instagram, social media as [01:12:40] a skill, just like you look at, you know, wisdom teeth as a skill.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the biggest I’ve [01:12:45] been so busy with the max factor, with the marriage, with settling into.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been busy. [01:12:50]

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve been busy, man. We’ve been talking about it. Well, we were coming. We were we were trying to have this discussion [01:12:55] two years ago. That’s right, that’s right. And finally made some space for it. Even though I was [01:13:00] trying the whole time and, um, I, I, I want [01:13:05] a, we all want a full life and I don’t want to be stuck in work the [01:13:10] whole time. So I want to invest in, uh, probably, like you said, narrow my clinical [01:13:15] field of practice, invest in something else that can make money whilst I’m [01:13:20] not there and, and have that form.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of thing is that?

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I have because [01:13:25] it’s the worst thing about being a dentist. Yeah. There’s many good things about being a dentist, but the worst thing [01:13:30] about being a dentist is that you kind of you can’t you can’t sort of be sit in Bali and [01:13:35] be and be a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are you thinking about [01:13:40] that? Have you thought anything about that?

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve thought of anything and everything, and a lot of it has been like [01:13:45] social media based and the platform I loved the podcast I did with Adam. [01:13:50] I, it just, it was so hard to fit it in with everything else. And it’s still hard. I’m not [01:13:55] saying my life’s got any quieter? I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Just wait till you have kids, man. [01:14:00] That’ll change. That’ll change the game.

Sina Gilannejad: What you think? Get even busier.

Payman Langroudi: Much busier.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I can’t. [01:14:05] I can barely do this, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, when you’ve had. Let’s say you’ve got two kids. Yeah. [01:14:10] How many friends do the two kids have? Yeah, generally. Yeah. They’re [01:14:15] in a class of 15 kids. Yeah. Yeah. Then that those 15 kids have [01:14:20] birthdays? Yeah. That’s 30 birthdays a year.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t like [01:14:25] this math.

Payman Langroudi: 30 birthdays a year that you have to attend. Yeah. And sometimes [01:14:30] on the same weekend, Manitoba will be with one kid at a birthday. And you’ll be with a different kid at a different [01:14:35] birthday where you don’t know one. Yeah. That’s just the birthdays. That’s. That’s [01:14:40] 30 out of 52 weekends. You’re at a birthday party? Yeah. Let alone everything else. [01:14:45] It’s hard. Yeah. It’s hard. By the way, it’s amazing also.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I’ve heard also. And [01:14:50] you know what, Max? Fax again. I’ll I’m sure like my [01:14:55] nurses and everyone’s so sick of me talking about it to them or to patients. But it was life [01:15:00] changing. I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: Just made him out of you, [01:15:05] huh? Huh? It honestly did.

Sina Gilannejad: It did. And and, you know, like people. What? [01:15:10] Like people are scared for Max for the on call, but you everyone gets used [01:15:15] to it if you don’t leave. All right? And and you end [01:15:20] up with this confidence of that. Okay. What is the worst thing that can happen in a practice? [01:15:25] Someone has a heart attack. Cpr when you work in a hospital long enough, you know, in hospital CPR rates, [01:15:30] you know, if you give someone CPR, they’re most likely going to die in a practice way more likely to die [01:15:35] on the street, probably dead. So you know that actually the worst case scenario, you’re doing the best thing you can do, like you’ve seen it. [01:15:40] So that’s nice. The other worst thing that they’ll bleed, you can stop the bleeding now. If you can’t, it’s something [01:15:45] crazy. And then the hospital again, you’ve done what you can. So and then all of a sudden. It [01:15:50] it it it puts you face to [01:15:55] face with humanity. And that’s all because there are people that have been stripped bare. They’ve [01:16:00] got cancer. You’re seeing them as a what was I like [01:16:05] a two, three year old qualified dentist. And I thought the worst [01:16:10] thing would be to tell a patient, oh, you’ve.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m sorry, but this is [01:16:15] cancer. You’ve got cancer. And the worst thing actually, by far [01:16:20] was sitting there and I cried so much last year and my [01:16:25] mum and my wife said the general concern, rightful concern, saying are you sure this is for you [01:16:30] because you’re very emotional, soft. At the end of the day, this this is going to hit you really hard. And I said, I, [01:16:35] I need, I need to to feel it. And [01:16:40] I felt it. And, and I was sitting there and the daughter [01:16:45] of this patient, the patient, she had tumour after [01:16:50] tumour, cancer after cancer in her the mouth. There was nothing left to cut. And so at one [01:16:55] point the consultant and he was a Mr.. Or is is is his name. He was [01:17:00] Northern Irish as well. Bless him. So was a, you know, piece of home. And he’s one [01:17:05] of the best men I’ve ever met and one of the best surgeons I’ll ever meet. And [01:17:10] he said to her, and he had an amazing way of communication. And my communication is talking enough until [01:17:15] I’ve said the right thing. His communication was always saying the right thing.

Payman Langroudi: On point.

Sina Gilannejad: On point, [01:17:20] and leaving the silence for the conversation to continue. And he said to this patient, he said, she [01:17:25] said, first, I don’t know if I can do any more. I don’t know if I can have [01:17:30] any more treatment. And he said, I don’t know if I can do any more treatment for you either. [01:17:35] I don’t want to cut you anymore. And then and then he went, [01:17:40] and I was there with her and her daughter and her daughter’s sobbing in tears. And she looks at [01:17:45] me like, look, I get it. Like on the way here, we already came to terms with [01:17:50] the decision. And we know like, this is it. She’s going to die. We know. [01:17:55] We don’t know when she’s going to die, but can you tell me how she’s going to die? And [01:18:00] I looked the mom was she she made her peace, [01:18:05] but the daughter hadn’t understandably. And looking [01:18:10] into her eyes and. And I said to her, I said, look, I, I, [01:18:15] I don’t know if I can describe that for you. I don’t think it’s [01:18:20] fair. And she said, I understand, just please, I need to [01:18:25] know. And sitting there and looking at her and saying, well, there’s so many different ways. If [01:18:30] you’re lucky, your, your mom will just waste away and just lights [01:18:35] go off. Or the [01:18:40] tumour will block her windpipe and she’ll suffocate or she’ll have the [01:18:45] tumour will eat away at one of the major arteries and bleed everywhere. And that [01:18:50] was I. God, I couldn’t stop crying that day. And the next day I just sat with the [01:18:55] consultant outside and we had a little four year that we had. It was a lovely sunny day in [01:19:00] Chesterfield. And, and I just, and I just, I just asked him, I was like, I just felt like I was going crazy.

Sina Gilannejad: And I said, there’s [01:19:05] this job just ever get too much for you? And he just looked at me and he was like, man, [01:19:10] I’m like, my patients die. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s so much. But you [01:19:15] know, I’ve got to remember the ones that I can help and that I have helped. And even those that died, [01:19:20] I helped them along the way. And, uh, and at that point, I was like, that [01:19:25] kind of me being so worried about a stupid crime prep just doesn’t matter anymore. And [01:19:30] at that point, that was it. Then I got married and I said, this is all I want to focus on. I just, you know, anything [01:19:35] else can come. And I need to remind myself so many times of just thinking of that story again, has reminded [01:19:40] me all these stresses and stuff that I have about going forward and what am I going to do? And this was like, at least I, I’ve, I’ve [01:19:45] got a life. My parents worked so hard to let me [01:19:50] do dentistry. You know, they didn’t have any chances to do it. They gave me the chance. I got to do it. [01:19:55] I’m living in London, uh, in a city where so [01:20:00] many people across the world want to come and live. And I’m saying, oh, the rent is high and this [01:20:05] and that, but I’m here, I’m living, and I’m paying the rent. And and I’m so grateful. So [01:20:10] it’s nice to take a step back and just take the pressure off myself in terms of what’s to come next. [01:20:15] But that’s why I think positive or negative, [01:20:20] Max will have such a, a strong impact [01:20:25] on you for the better.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a deep cut. It’s a deep cut, deep [01:20:30] cut. But thanks for sharing that man. That must can’t have been easy to.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, man. But you’ve [01:20:35] been there as well. You know it as well. It’s it’s these these final moments when people [01:20:40] have nothing. You realise actually what’s actually important.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:45] met my first night of Maxfacts. [01:20:50] The patient passed away. Jeez. They operated on that day. Jeez. And [01:20:55] it was a new consultant as well. So he, you know, he had that nightmare [01:21:00] and I, I, I didn’t it was my first night. [01:21:05] I had no idea what to do next. I was a dental student and first night [01:21:10] and I didn’t write it in the notes because I didn’t know I was a patient [01:21:15] died.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: The next day. The next day, consultant said, right, give give me the [01:21:20] notes. And obviously he was having a hard day himself. Right. He just arrived. It was like the first operation [01:21:25] he’d done. And he goes, it’s not in the notes. The patient passed [01:21:30] away.

Sina Gilannejad: I thought you knew.

Payman Langroudi: Who was on call. I was like, sticking [01:21:35] my hand and he screamed through [01:21:40] the notes, and I can’t blame him. Right? But that was my first night. It [01:21:45] was hard, but.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s not something you would think like first.

Payman Langroudi: Like you.

Sina Gilannejad: Said. Yeah, like surely [01:21:50] you haven’t record the Fish is dead. Why do I have to say in the notes like patient is not moving when I poke them? Yeah. But [01:21:55] yeah, man, that’s the so the future is probably [01:22:00] at another crossroads.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part.

Sina Gilannejad: That wasn’t the dark part.

Payman Langroudi: The dark. [01:22:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Part.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, the dark part of this pod is around errors. Mistakes?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What mistakes [01:22:10] have you made and what, what can we all learn from your mistakes? From black box thinking. [01:22:15] You know about black box thinking. No I don’t. Black box thing is about plane crashes. Oh, compared [01:22:20] to medical errors where planes crash, they discuss, they find out what happened [01:22:25] in the black box. Then they tell the whole pilot community what happened. So everyone learns. Whereas [01:22:30] in medical we’re trying to find who was at fault. And so for that reason, we all hide [01:22:35] our mistakes. Yeah. So we never learn from each other’s mistakes. And even though I [01:22:40] acknowledged that in the end, you learn from your own mistakes because they they they strike [01:22:45] deeper. Yeah. To buck that trend. I want you to sort of come up with errors you’ve [01:22:50] made that the rest of us can learn from. So so so I don’t want a one day I dropped something [01:22:55] and yeah, you know.

Sina Gilannejad: I, I’ll give you two things. I’ll give you a clinical one and, [01:23:00] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, cool.

Sina Gilannejad: Look one. Yeah. First the outlook one. And [01:23:05] I’m sure everyone knows this, but doesn’t practice it. Do not put [01:23:10] your self worth into a tooth. It’s so unpredictable, so interesting. [01:23:15] It’s so unpredictable. And honestly, like, it sounds stupid saying it, but if you’ve done [01:23:20] a deep filling, that tooth loses vitality. Uh, so many of us and me, [01:23:25] I was like, oh, well, that is, um, that means I’m a bad dentist, which means I’m a bad person. That was [01:23:30] it. And it sounds so stupid to say that’s one thing. Do not put your self worth in this. I was [01:23:35] going to say in this job, but obviously you can be proud of who you are and as you should be. You work very hard to get [01:23:40] here. But do not put your self-worth.

Payman Langroudi: Self-worth only in this job.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100%. [01:23:45] Do not do that. Biggest clinical mistake. I’m [01:23:50] trying to think of which one to tell you. I’ve made many, [01:23:55] as we all have. And that’s what happens whenever you step out of the comfort zone. [01:24:00] Um, I think I would have to be, uh, [01:24:05] drilling the cheek. Oh, yeah. So, um, if you’re doing a surgical extraction [01:24:10] or just drilling weight, it’s very easy to get super focussed [01:24:15] on the tip of your drill and not remember what’s around you. And then all of a sudden you got a big buccal fat pad [01:24:20] just wrapping its way around your drill.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of bleeding.

Sina Gilannejad: Lots [01:24:25] of bleeding. If you’re lucky enough, the drill is going fast enough. It cauterises at the same moment. So you’ve done a little gingivectomy [01:24:30] of the well, you’ve got buccal mucosa. Ectomy. Yeah. Um, so that’s not good. [01:24:35] So be aware of your surroundings. For example, if you’re doing a surgical for the first [01:24:40] time, don’t do it with your lips on. You might have used your lips for donkeys, but you’re still not going [01:24:45] to see that cheek.

Payman Langroudi: That’s for this reason, your field of view.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. For this reason. And another main [01:24:50] one is and again, done it. And I’ve had friends that have done it. Many people will keep doing [01:24:55] it. Uh, just be careful of the floor of the mouth because someone will swallow it comes up, wraps around [01:25:00] you. That really wraps around your bro. You can’t cauterise that one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but not a lot. [01:25:05] What the the the error.

Sina Gilannejad: Okay, let me think what you want something worse.

Payman Langroudi: Just more, uh, [01:25:10] worse or better. I like it, but not a lot. Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Fine. Uh, [01:25:15] in a hospital setting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, saw a patient. They had a swelling. I [01:25:20] forgot to look at the background and forgot that this was a hospital. And [01:25:25] the swelling doesn’t always just mean antibiotics. You got to do bloods, you got to check, and you got to check for signs of sepsis and things like that, [01:25:30] which I didn’t do. And then the patient came back two days later in A&E on a drip [01:25:35] or on the verge of not having sepsis, so that was really [01:25:40] bad. Overlooked a lot of signs and the learning outcome [01:25:45] there was just calm down. Remember your environment and [01:25:50] just if you have a set protocol to look at for each patient, you [01:25:55] won’t forget it. And that is a massive thing that actually in the dental community we’re taught by [01:26:00] pilots, aren’t we? Yeah. A lot more of them are coming and teaching us, uh, this, uh, root [01:26:05] cause analysis and how to set up protocols so you do not make the same mistake. And [01:26:10] one of the most common mistakes we get is what leads to sharps injuries is that you treat the [01:26:15] patient and you see the patient has a, what a, let’s say a blood marker like HIV. [01:26:20] And then all of a sudden, because you’ve seen that you start acting differently. That is the main reason why protocols exist. Protocols [01:26:25] exist so that you’re acting the same way for every patient as you would for that patient. But then you start doing [01:26:30] that for every other patient, and then all of a sudden you see a positive patient and you start acting differently. And [01:26:35] all of a sudden the needle is not where you usually left it and you didn’t know, you always left it there, but you’ve done something different [01:26:40] and then you get a sharps injury that is so common. I’ve seen that so many times. [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that one more. I like that one more. What comes to mind if I say, what’s your [01:26:50] favourite lecture or lecture that really stood out for you?

Sina Gilannejad: Is [01:26:55] it is it bad to say one that I did?

Payman Langroudi: I probably [01:27:00] won’t accept it, but go on. Fair enough. Go on. No, no, but go on.

Sina Gilannejad: I did a lecture in Cardiff. I did [01:27:05] two lectures. I did one for oral medicine and it was an absolute intensive lecture [01:27:10] of all the stuff, uh, in oral medicine that’s going to be on the exams.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:27:15] the students.

Sina Gilannejad: For the students. Yeah. And it was, it [01:27:20] was I’d done teaching before that, but after I did that, I left and I felt I [01:27:25] could do this for the rest of my life. I absolutely love that. The thrill of [01:27:30] just the public speaking, The. The anxiety of [01:27:35] it became the thrill of it and the, you know, the absolute attention I had of everyone [01:27:40] and being in their place. So when they asked a question, I was like, oh, let me explain it to you in a way that I [01:27:45] understood it, to see if you understood it that way and the feedback you get from that and that it thankfully went well. [01:27:50] And it was my first.

Payman Langroudi: Teachings, great teachings. Great. The problem with teaching is it’s difficult [01:27:55] to make money teaching. Yeah. It’s, you know, as a career. Um, [01:28:00] but it’s great man. Um, by the way, you can make loads of money [01:28:05] teaching if you play it right. If you, if yeah, if you’re amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Sell of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, but it’s [01:28:10] tough. It’s not easy. It’s much easier making money doing dentistry than, than teaching teaching.

Sina Gilannejad: Then that’s [01:28:15] the thing I kept finding. There’s actually all these loopholes to find so much easier just to do dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:28:20] about what stands out to you? Like the best lecture you went to?

Sina Gilannejad: Best lecture.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one that [01:28:25] stands out to you, one that inspired you, maybe.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, [01:28:30] inspired me was the one that inspired me to do Max. [01:28:35] Max. I was at a conference. Uh, it was a Welsh [01:28:40] hospitals, all Wales hospitals. Something was called. I can’t remember what it was. It was all the Welsh hospitals. [01:28:45] And they were showing um, a case where basically [01:28:50] it was a cancer in the base of the tongue. So if you’ve got a really bad cancer base of the tongue, you either [01:28:55] have to do a subtotal or total glossectomy, which effectively means cut out part of the tongue [01:29:00] or all of the tongue. Grim. You can, you can already think of the massive [01:29:05] impact to your life. You can’t talk, you can’t eat. You can’t swallow properly. [01:29:10] Hell, just losing your voice alone, you know, it’s like a little mermaid. Except [01:29:15] so much worse. And, um, the surgery, you’d have to get that rather than [01:29:20] going into the mouth and cutting it out, you’d actually have to go underneath, drop everything, cut [01:29:25] it out, stitch it back up. So that was extremely invasive in itself, even though you’ve taken the tongue out. Um, [01:29:30] but actually this one was the innovations that we’re having. And it was a little robot that can go to the back of the tongue [01:29:35] and laser it off, which was pretty cool, but that just kickstarted the, [01:29:40] the whole like.

Payman Langroudi: Fascination.

Sina Gilannejad: Fascination towards Max Fox that.

Payman Langroudi: And who gave that lecture? [01:29:45] Do you remember?

Sina Gilannejad: It was she was a lead [01:29:50] consultant in Scotland, maybe Glasgow, and she was a fantastic [01:29:55] speaker.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t know her name.

Sina Gilannejad: No, I don’t know her name. I’m not good with names, but [01:30:00] I remember her face. She was fantastic. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Did you love Cardiff, by the way?

Sina Gilannejad: I loved. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: It.

Sina Gilannejad: Such a good city. I’ve been so lucky, you know, being [01:30:10] in Bristol, then Manchester, then Cardiff. Bristol.

Payman Langroudi: Good places.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, Cardiff. So [01:30:15] good. The people are so lovely. Amazing, amazing. The patients are amazing. The clinicians [01:30:20] are amazing. The. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: I think that whole thing about the way you said in Northern Ireland, everyone [01:30:25] wants to talk to you. Yeah. Same same in Cardiff.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. You go for a walk. You’re going to have a conversation, [01:30:30] a 30 minute conversation. And it’s it’s amazing, I loved it. I made such [01:30:35] good friends in Cardiff, which was a massive, again, part of my healing process because it was so social. [01:30:40] We had, we had tons of so in, in, in Maxfax I was one of two ducts, [01:30:45] whereas in Cardiff I was one of, I think like 15 plus and we were all friends. We were all friends, had [01:30:50] a great time and you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, there’s a, there’s a size of city that, that is so fun [01:30:55] because the size of city that Cardiff or Bristol are Manchester obviously bigger, but Cardiff [01:31:00] and Bristol are. You can pretty much get everything. Yeah. It’s compressed. Let’s [01:31:05] say one day you want, I don’t know, Wagyu steak.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can pretty much [01:31:10] find wagyu steak in Cardiff or Bristol or you are, I don’t know whatever [01:31:15] it is. Yeah. Yeah. You can find pretty much. Oh I don’t know. You want to go to a concert. [01:31:20] Oh yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That was good Theatre.

Payman Langroudi: Stadium they’ve got there. Or you want to go to a sports thing. Yeah, [01:31:25] there is all that. But then it’s also small enough that parking [01:31:30] and traffic and all of that isn’t a big deal. But what I loved [01:31:35] about it, especially as a student, was you keep bumping into people [01:31:40] in the street.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which never happens in London. No, no. If you bump into someone, it’s like, let’s [01:31:45] have lunch or something.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s crazy because you bump into someone in London, you’re like, this world is tiny. [01:31:50] But like you said, it’s a normal occurrence in Bristol, Cardiff and things like that. And Cardiff, like you said, [01:31:55] I went to the theatre, I went to the Six Nations rugby games. Cardiff [01:32:00] has for some reason, the one of the best sushi restaurants I’ve ever been at. I love the sushi, everything. [01:32:05] It’s got everything.

Payman Langroudi: Like, uh, AP watch. Like you want to buy a [01:32:10] £100,000 watch. You can buy it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, it’s everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Like it didn’t, by [01:32:15] the way, when I was there, it didn’t have that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Different times. Yeah. [01:32:20] But I love Cardiff and it would definitely suck leaving there. I [01:32:25] had a really good time. Sheffield. Great place as well.

Payman Langroudi: Big student city right.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive student [01:32:30] city. Very even more students. Way more. Way more surprisingly. So it’s got like a really [01:32:35] old miners like actually like they were mining community. So [01:32:40] your whole, you know, Sheffield Steel, you hear all about stuff that obviously that’s not nationalised anymore because that would make too much [01:32:45] sense. Yeah. They sell that all abroad and, and, and then there’s no in between. [01:32:50] And then there’s students. There’s tons of them.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a big population there as well. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s massive. You [01:32:55] don’t realise it feels small.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Because the city centre is pretty small.

Payman Langroudi: Really small. We got this [01:33:00] map. It was like a map that supermarkets use to figure out where to put the next supermarket. [01:33:05] Oh, cool. Because we were putting, um, we have this thing called regional centre of Excellence [01:33:10] one per region. Ah. And we were trying to figure out what is a region. And then [01:33:15] so it’s a population density map, right. And Sheffield’s got the two places [01:33:20] that surprised the hell out of me. Sheffield and Leicester.

Sina Gilannejad: Really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Population density. [01:33:25]

Sina Gilannejad: Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s like some I knew about Glasgow, for instance. Like it’s not Edinburgh, Glasgow, [01:33:30] Glasgow where the population is. But I kind of knew that. But I didn’t know Sheffield and Leicester had such [01:33:35] huge population density like that either.

Sina Gilannejad: But and you don’t feel it when you’re there. You’re not in like massive [01:33:40] obviously just traffic in every city. It’s not crazy in.

Payman Langroudi: The the area. [01:33:45] It’s not just exactly.

Sina Gilannejad: There’s actually a big outskirts to it. And obviously then you’ve got like the peaks [01:33:50] and everything like that. And that’s another.

Payman Langroudi: Super.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful, gorgeous place. Honestly, if [01:33:55] you want to be proud of where you live, you got to go there where the peaks are and everything, not where all [01:34:00] the flags are in the cities.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource to [01:34:05] learn about dentistry? Is there a book? Is there a website? Is there a Instagram page, [01:34:10] a YouTube channel?

Sina Gilannejad: I enjoy all the series of the [01:34:15] The Good Clinicians Guide. Was it the good practitioners? They’ve got loads of those things like the Good Practitioners [01:34:20] Guide to Prosthetics, to end though. It’s got all those. They were amazing. And they’re all.

Payman Langroudi: What is that?

Sina Gilannejad: Books. [01:34:25] They’re all books. They’re all books and they’re all available. Uh, it’s not a sponsor. Um, but they’re on the BDA [01:34:30] library. A lot of people have a BDA membership, so they’re all in the library digital and it breaks things [01:34:35] so well, um, for a student dentistry in nutshell was fantastic. Um, [01:34:40] I didn’t use it, I didn’t buy it because I was so broke, even though it was a reasonable price, unbelievably [01:34:45] broke. But um, I used my friends and it was such a good resource and something I [01:34:50] really love and I’m trying to remember the name of it. It was a book that had hundreds of cases. [01:34:55] It’s like Cornell’s or something. I need to find that and [01:35:00] put it in because it’s so good. It literally each, each, every two pages is [01:35:05] a case. And it could be oral med oral surgery, uh, restorative. It was so good [01:35:10] to test yourself because when it comes to finals, the units are just going to test you to see if you’re a safe dentist, if you [01:35:15] can look at this and pick out the important things. And that was perfect for that. It would you would look at the case. It would [01:35:20] give you all the information on the pictures and then it would tell you, um, how to break it down [01:35:25] and what all the things were and then how to treatment plan it. So good. That was fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:35:30] about doing DCT? Did they pay for you to go on courses?

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT [01:35:35] another reason if you want to go on DCT is the amount of free courses [01:35:40] you go on. So um, first of all in Cardiff. So it changes as you [01:35:45] go up these days you tend to do less study days in DCT one most not I think it’s like [01:35:50] 50 that you’ve got loads of study days made for you. Cardiff was phenomenal for that. [01:35:55] We had only consultants teaching us and they like it was intensive [01:36:00] days. For each week we’d have intensive day of just a full lecture on this, that and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:36:05] they made their own sort of they made their own.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. They made their own curriculum. Oh, interesting. And it was fantastic. We [01:36:10] learned everything from the best people and that was great. And then you get a study budget as well, not a DCT [01:36:15] one because they put oh well in Cardiff anyway. Sorry because they put so many programs on. You only had a small [01:36:20] budget, but I got to use it to fly to. Was it. Where did it go? Glasgow, I think it was Glasgow. [01:36:25] I went for an oral medicine conference and got to do it. Loads of people went to restorative conferences, [01:36:30] oral surgery, all that. Um in DC D two, I got fully funded to do [01:36:35] my sedation training and most DC places will do that for you. Even if you [01:36:40] take up a community job, they’ll probably pay it for you. And that’s like, it’s not cheap. It’s like well over a thousand. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: And a great thing to have under your belt for.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive thing. And then, and well, the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s got you the job in. [01:36:50] Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the course itself is fine. Yeah. It’s expensive [01:36:55] 2000 something. But then if you don’t have a hospital setting to, uh, or a mentor [01:37:00] to actually do the cases, you need to get qualified, that becomes quite expensive very quickly if you’ve got to pay [01:37:05] the course provider to do those cases. So yeah, you get loads out of it in that. [01:37:10] And it’s, it’s only one two year. If you did the first year, you don’t like it, don’t do it again.

Payman Langroudi: If there was if there was no [01:37:15] time or money Constraints. Firstly, what course would you jump [01:37:20] straight into?

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, I do the, uh, the London Oral surgeons [01:37:25] extraction courses. He does, uh, normal ones and uh, as [01:37:30] a normal teeth and wisdom teeth, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that his Instagram name? The London. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: London [01:37:35] oral surgeon in insane quality, insane. Like he take [01:37:40] the clinical photos he takes of each stage of like a surgical extraction is [01:37:45] insane. I’m like, where’s the blood? Where’s it gone? And it’s so beautiful. And I can’t even well, I can [01:37:50] now, but I struggle to take a good anterior photograph. And he’s all the way in the back of the [01:37:55] mouth there taking his beautiful photos. So I’d, I’d do that.

Payman Langroudi: I do he’s got a [01:38:00] course. Does he.

Sina Gilannejad: He does. Yes. Yeah. He has got, he’s got courses. Um I think they’re all fully booked now. [01:38:05] Um I do that do implants. If money wasn’t an issue for sure implants would be [01:38:10] done by now. Um and then I would It really [01:38:15] get into the digital side of dentistry. I really would like [01:38:20] to have, um, to, to know and learn how to use [01:38:25] the software to like model all these things to do provisionals, things like that. And then [01:38:30] the 3D printer to print whatever I want, like exocad. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And then I’d probably make some [01:38:35] grills I sell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s good man. That’s just [01:38:40] a lot of skills you want. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Maybe money and motivation to [01:38:45] actually implement everything that I’ve learned.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions please. Fantasy [01:38:50] dinner party.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, three guests. [01:38:55] Dead or alive.

Sina Gilannejad: Ooh. Uh, I mean, I’m [01:39:00] always gonna. There’s always going to be a cop out, but I would, uh, my [01:39:05] granny that’s in Iran, she’d be with me.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:39:10] your mum’s mum?

Sina Gilannejad: Mum, mum, mum! My mum’s mum. I’d [01:39:15] have her with me and she’s alive, thankfully. But I just don’t know when, if ever, [01:39:20] I’m gonna see her again. Uh. Neil [01:39:25] deGrasse Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love [01:39:30] that astronomer guy.

Sina Gilannejad: I just love the passion that he speaks about space. That’s why [01:39:35] I did physics. I love the idea of space. The idea of there was this, uh, quote that he had. [01:39:40] He was like, someone asked him, what’s the, like the scariest thing about [01:39:45] space and what’s the best thing about space? And he was like, it’s the same thing. He said, we’re all made out of the same atoms, [01:39:50] um, as the stars. We’re all made out of carbon. Um, well, [01:39:55] carbon, nitrogen, oxygen. Um, and I’m missing one as well. Um, and [01:40:00] that means we’re all so alike, but at the same time, we’re the same material as stars that are [01:40:05] billions and billions and billions of light years away. We’re so insignificant. We’re [01:40:10] just the same as that little speck that’s over there. And that was a very comforting fact [01:40:15] because I was like, ah, this is such a tiny little planet. The grand scheme [01:40:20] of things, things don’t really matter.

Payman Langroudi: You know?

Sina Gilannejad: And I needed to feel that. So that’s two. And [01:40:25] the last one, dead or alive? Oh, [01:40:30] I probably do like something crazy, like a conspiracy theory to [01:40:35] find out, like what actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So, you know, something crazy. [01:40:40] Like, if I don’t know, is it bad to say, like Madeleine McCann? That’s [01:40:45] what I know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, herself.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Like [01:40:50] what happened?

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: I hope she’s okay. I’d like to [01:40:55] think that she’s okay. And she’s got a lot of money.

Payman Langroudi: And who knows? Yeah. How interesting. I never had [01:41:00] that before. Mm. How interesting. I went on a different podcast and I told you the guy [01:41:05] said, oh no, it was, it wasn’t you. The guy said, the guy said, um, where would you like [01:41:10] to be A fly on the wall. Oh, oh.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I want anymore. Like [01:41:15] knowing, like seeing all these Epstein files and everything’s came out. I’m scared to to fight.

Payman Langroudi: But where would you like to [01:41:20] be? A fly on the wall.

Sina Gilannejad: Like.

Payman Langroudi: I’d.

Sina Gilannejad: Do you know what I would like? [01:41:25] I probably would be crazy. And so the fly on the wall, I’d like to be basically [01:41:30] all those hot mic situations, like in the limousine where the celebrity just [01:41:35] gets out from the thing or like just at the press conference as they leave, I want I want to hear that the big crash out for [01:41:40] like the living reporter said this and that stuff that’s. I’d like to do that. Yeah. What [01:41:45] about you?

Payman Langroudi: I well, my answer on that show was when they when they gave [01:41:50] the order to kill JFK. Oh. Like who? Like I want to.

Sina Gilannejad: See this is what.

Payman Langroudi: I mean on that one. Like [01:41:55] in that same conspiracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, um, uh, you know, when the dinosaur [01:42:00] extinction event happened. True. Fly on the fly on the tree in. [01:42:05]

Sina Gilannejad: A very safe tree that’s still alive today. That’s true. Was it? Yeah. [01:42:10] Was it?

Payman Langroudi: What the hell went down?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What did it look like? What it looked like. You know.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be crazy. Yeah, that’d [01:42:15] be so true. That’d be good. But I wouldn’t have a dinosaur at the dinner party because that would be messy.

Payman Langroudi: No, that’s a different question.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: Final. Final question. Uh, it’s a deathbed question. It’s a bit unfair. Someone [01:42:25] as young as you.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, yeah, hopefully it’s not too.

Payman Langroudi: Soon, but on your deathbed, surrounded [01:42:30] by your loved ones.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Many years from now. Three pieces of advice.

Sina Gilannejad: Three [01:42:35] pieces of advice. Um. Uh, [01:42:40] again, it’s going to be things we hear all the time, but we just don’t put into actions. It’s, it’s [01:42:45] definitely going to be like, not to take things so seriously or [01:42:50] be a perfectionist about everything. Um. I’d [01:42:55] say as well to, [01:43:00] and I get told this all the time is focus. Focus [01:43:05] on the action, not the outcome for and and [01:43:10] the biggest thing for that is, you know, just do what you enjoy and the money will come afterwards. That’s the main thing. And, and you’ve [01:43:15] just got to believe it until it happens. And again, just be careful with that because you, you keep thinking, [01:43:20] when’s the money coming? When’s it coming? And then you look around you and you realise all your spending has gone up and everything you know, you’ve not, you’ve [01:43:25] not sort of that person that the money that you want keeps going up. And obviously [01:43:30] that’s inflation in general. But you can you can control some of that. And the last thing that [01:43:35] I would say on my deathbed. It [01:43:40] wouldn’t be advice. I’d love to be on my deathbed. And just to say that I had [01:43:45] a fantastic life and, you know, don’t waste [01:43:50] after today. Don’t waste any more tears for me. I, I want you to to live happy as well. [01:43:55] And I hope you only think about like the best times that we had together. Yeah. [01:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s super nice.

Sina Gilannejad: Thanks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve had a lot of people sit over here. [01:44:05] Yeah. But, um, I think your guest 330. Nice. Yeah. Or [01:44:10] something like that. Um, but the, the thing I love about you, [01:44:15] you’ve got this authenticity, like you’re, you’re answering the question completely, [01:44:20] honestly. That’s sweet. You can see it in the, in your eyeball, you’re looking up or you’re [01:44:25] not, you know, you’re not even for a second trying to filter it. You’re just telling it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which is beautiful. It’s beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: I take that with a lot of, of, [01:44:35] you know, I’m really grateful for that. Thank you. Payman. And that’s why we get on so well because.

Payman Langroudi: We’re a massive [01:44:40] pleasure, man. Thank you so much for doing this.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make [01:44:45] sure you tune in for future episodes, hit subscribe in iTunes or [01:44:50] Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:44:55] would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:45:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Megan Chard onto the podcast. Megan, I’ve [00:01:00] known you. I was thinking about it today, at least a decade since you [00:01:05] qualified. Basically, I think I knew Simon, you’re a little bit famous husband maybe two [00:01:10] years before that. I knew since he was a student. And you’ve got an even more [00:01:15] famous aunt. Um, we’ll get to that. Um, lovely [00:01:20] to have you.

Meghan Chard: Thank you for having me. It’s a privilege. And, um. Yeah, [00:01:25] I’m happy to. I’m excited to have a chat and, uh, see where things go.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:30] tell me, Megan, you are principal of roughly. [00:01:35] How do you say it?

Meghan Chard: I know it’s a tricky one. Yeah. I think technically it’s roughly lodge, roughly [00:01:40] Lodge. It’s basically it’s named Rothley Lodge because Simon’s parents got married in a place called [00:01:45] Rothley Lodge in, um, Quorn up in sort of the East Midlands, whatever it [00:01:50] is, Leicestershire. And so when they bought the practice they called it that. And that’s why it’s called Rothley [00:01:55] Lodge, but it’s kind of spelled Rothley Lodge, and I think no one really knows how, how it’s meant to, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:00] yeah, that was, that was Simon’s dad’s practice or parent’s practice. Yeah. And you guys bought that [00:02:05] in 20 1716.

Meghan Chard: That sort of eight years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And expanded. [00:02:10]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I’m interested in all of that really. [00:02:15] So you know, your, your, your plans when, when you think back to [00:02:20] you qualified, how many years you were a dentist before you decided we’re going to [00:02:25] buy the practice? Yeah. Your plans there, all of that.

Meghan Chard: So [00:02:30] um, so Simon and I were trained together. So we’ve always sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:02:35] go on. How did you meet? Go on, go on. I’ve heard it from Simon. I need to hear it from you.

Meghan Chard: Uh, so basically [00:02:40] I did the five year undergrad course and Simon did the four year [00:02:45] undergrad course. So he did pharmacology at Bristol first. So, you know, you can [00:02:50] do the, um, what’s it called? I don’t know, I can’t remember now too many years ago, but you can sort of bypass the first [00:02:55] year and coming to the second year. So that was my first year and I was like, there’s just [00:03:00] no one here for me. I’m not marrying a dentist. There’s no one here for me. I’m just gonna have a good time. [00:03:05] All good, you know, you know, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So this is kings.

Meghan Chard: This is kings. Yeah. And so the [00:03:10] first day of the second year, um, I was, I went on the first day, didn’t make an effort, [00:03:15] you know, didn’t put my lenses in, just put my glasses on and you know, just went to the lecture just thinking [00:03:20] again, same, same crew, just first day of the second year, but [00:03:25] they did not tell us is that there’s a whole new cohort of fresh meat. And [00:03:30] I remember walking in and being like, oh my God, who are these? [00:03:35] Like, it was like, and it was like, there’s an excitement in the air. And I noticed Simon in the lecture [00:03:40] theatre, he was wearing a red hoodie and I thought, oh my God, Crikey.

Payman Langroudi: And the tallest guy in the room.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, [00:03:45] yeah, exactly. And even taller with his hair. His hair was quite spiky then. Yeah. And, [00:03:50] uh, and actually I was living in Chalk Farm at the time, so I was walking up Camden High Street and I was on the phone to my mum and I was like, oh [00:03:55] my God, mum, there are some hot people in my ear. It’s very exciting. So that’s kind of when I first sort [00:04:00] of saw him. And then that night was the truffle shuffle, which was this 80s night. So everyone got dressed [00:04:05] up. I looked like I’d fallen into a bag of clothes, like brightly coloured clothes. And we started [00:04:10] talking and we both liked electro music, talking about our like, favourite DJ’s and then sort [00:04:15] of just friends for a little while. And then, yeah, after a couple of months, one thing led to another and um, cheesy [00:04:20] saying, but the rest is history.

Payman Langroudi: But but I remember his version of events. He had a girlfriend at that [00:04:25] point. Oh, did you know this?

Meghan Chard: Um, not at first. Um, [00:04:30] not until.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t tell.

Meghan Chard: You didn’t tell me at first. Uh, and then. Yeah, kind of, um. [00:04:35] Yeah, you find out in the end, don’t you? But um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were leaving it at that.

Meghan Chard: It [00:04:40] was, it was pretty much on its last legs anyway.

Payman Langroudi: So you know, that’s cool. [00:04:45]

Meghan Chard: It’s fine. We’re married now. It’s all good. It’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Yeah, yeah. So. Okay. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: I [00:04:50] didn’t realise he told you that bit. So you’ve just caught me a bit, you know, in the spotlight.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:55] then what? You okay? You went out. I remember first time I met you. You weren’t married? [00:05:00]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, yeah, you and I was saying delay, if you remember, I was. I always [00:05:05] say delay. Um, but you got married. And so then what? You were both [00:05:10] associates.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So both associates doing our own thing. And then we actually worked part time for size [00:05:15] parents as well. Mhm. Um, so that’s kind of where we got our feel for the practice. Um, [00:05:20] and then, you know, sort of one thing led to another. And then Simon’s parents wanted [00:05:25] to retire and it’s sort of kind of just the momentum sort of happened and it just kind of was the next step [00:05:30] really. So we worked as associates for, I think like what, 2013 [00:05:35] to 18. So five years, we’re associates there. And then we took over bought, bought [00:05:40] it off them. And then, um, yeah. And then the biggest thing though was that we bought the practice [00:05:45] literally a month before I gave birth to our eldest. Wow. So that was like, that [00:05:50] was mega. You know, I remember being in labour in the hospital trying to figure out how to pay people for the first time. I hadn’t paid people. [00:05:55] Yeah. Um, so that was like a, that was like two major milestones happening, colliding, [00:06:00] should I say, at the same time. So that was quite major.

Payman Langroudi: You you’re more involved [00:06:05] in running it than he is. Is that correct?

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he’s out and about lecturing.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. But he’s [00:06:10] he’s more he’s more business minded. If I’m completely honest. I didn’t train to be a business person. I [00:06:15] trained to be a dentist. So it doesn’t come as easy and as naturally to me to do business things. [00:06:20] Yeah. Um, whereas it’s very, very easy for Simon. And, um, so we have like our strengths [00:06:25] and weaknesses and I’m more kind of, you know, so yeah, I mean, I don’t run it day to day [00:06:30] because, you know, we’ve got managers, but like there’s always something to do and there’s, you know, you’re always having to chase up on something or, you [00:06:35] know, like what, you know, something’s been left in the past. I’ll pick it up and say, what happened with that? And you’re always having to think that [00:06:40] way. But I’m definitely more ops sort of, um, ops minded and size [00:06:45] more like kind of direction leading, leading that way, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So then what? He who [00:06:50] does the hiring and firing, do you both.

Meghan Chard: Um, so now we’re sort of delegated [00:06:55] the hiring of the nurses to our managers. Yeah. And then the associates, [00:07:00] I would probably, I’d probably interview them and then I would probably um. [00:07:05] Yeah. I think I’ve interviewed mostly sometimes I’ll bring Sai in depending, but some, a bit of both, [00:07:10] but mainly me, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: And you get like you must do, you must get fan boys and girls [00:07:15] saying I want to work here because it’s you too.

Meghan Chard: Uh, I think Simon does. They don’t really message me that much, which is fine [00:07:20] by me. But yeah, I think more for Sai. He does? Yeah. He gets.

Payman Langroudi: So does that mean the associate that turns [00:07:25] up at your interview is expecting more than just patients in the practice. [00:07:30] He’s expecting like some form of mentorship. Or is that something you offer to get the [00:07:35] right associate or what.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the deal for an associate at Rothley Lodge?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, [00:07:40] I think so. Cider’s like one to ones with them and stuff like that. Um, and [00:07:45] do you know what it is? We’ve had like a really large NHS contract for so many years.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:50] did you carry that on when you bought it?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, it was massive [00:07:55] and it was.

Payman Langroudi: Still in NHS.

Meghan Chard: We still have some NHS but it’s much smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: We [00:08:00] had to reduce it because it got to the stage where we’d actually, even with size profile, we couldn’t actually find [00:08:05] it really hard to get associates. Mhm. Um, because they didn’t want to do the NHS and the NHS basically. [00:08:10] So now kind of in a slightly different situation where, you know, we’ve got [00:08:15] a much smaller NHS contract. So dentists now, you know, it’s much more easier [00:08:20] to get really good associates now I would say.

Payman Langroudi: And talk me through. I mean, Simon’s [00:08:25] both his parents are dentists. You said your uncle is a dentist. Talk me through the [00:08:30] sort of the I don’t know the I want to call it privilege that [00:08:35] that gives you in dentistry because now my my daughter’s announced that she wants [00:08:40] to be a dentist. And in a way I’m thinking, well done. At least someone. One of our kids is [00:08:45] because both me and my wife were dentists.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so, [00:08:50] you know, when you went, how much planning? I mean, knowing Simon, you guys probably had [00:08:55] a big plan for what you were going to do to this place outside of building work. I mean, you did building work. [00:09:00] You expanded it.

Meghan Chard: In the practice. You mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m thinking of like the, the mindset [00:09:05] going in. Were you going in thinking we’re going to make big changes?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah, I think [00:09:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Did that annoy people. It must have done. It’s like there must be there must have been people who were [00:09:15] working there thinking everything’s been stable, everything’s been fine. Now these guys are talking about digital [00:09:20] or whatever it was marketing, whatever it was.

Meghan Chard: I don’t think it ruffle any feathers because I think [00:09:25] we weren’t sort of saying how it was done before was bad because it wasn’t it was, you know, his parents were [00:09:30] did an amazing, amazing job. Yeah. Incredible job. And they grew it from like a two surgery practice [00:09:35] to a five surgery practice. Um, but, you know, just naturally, you know, [00:09:40] the younger, the younger you are, the more sort of in the know you are of the newer techniques and technology. [00:09:45] Right. Um, so it’s just kind of a natural progression that we could see things that were happening, [00:09:50] um, and could and, and saw we could incorporate that and improve and grow the practice. [00:09:55] So it didn’t ruffle any feathers. And I think, you know, um, I mean, my dad still works at the practice [00:10:00] and he. Yeah. And he’s, and he like, he, you know, he was still owning it when we bought the Sarasin. And [00:10:05] so he’s always up for kind of trying new things. Yeah. Um, so no, it was, yeah. It was, [00:10:10] it was um and we implemented things slowly. You know, it was like bit by bit. So I think it was, it was a [00:10:15] natural transition.

Payman Langroudi: And you had to pay him for it properly, right? Because size got brothers [00:10:20] and sisters.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, we got it valued and we had to.

Payman Langroudi: Get it handed to you.

Meghan Chard: We bought it. We bought it at market, [00:10:25] market price.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And so were you involved in sort of the financial [00:10:30] planning as well?

Meghan Chard: Uh, with all of that when we bought it. Yeah. I mean, it’s a bit yeah. I mean, I’m [00:10:35] very lucky that, you know, my in-laws are amazing. Um, but obviously it can [00:10:40] be quite tricky with like knowing each other’s insides and outs and business [00:10:45] and things like that is like a very fine line that we have to be careful treading on. Um, but, you know, we [00:10:50] manage, we manage it, we kind of navigate our way through it. And, you know, we still have a really [00:10:55] good relationship and things like that. So we’re quite lucky that way. But it has been challenging.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, what I mean is what I [00:11:00] mean is anyone who’s buying any practice has to have a good understanding of the numbers and [00:11:05] understand that the numbers are very different. Once you bought the place because you’ve bought the place for [00:11:10] a huge number that needs paying off. Yeah. So, so this is my [00:11:15] point. Like if I’m going to start a practice, what do I have to learn? Did you, did you [00:11:20] have to go and, you know, watch YouTube videos or whatever and learn anything about this? Or did [00:11:25] you find.

Meghan Chard: Running a practice? Do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the numbers, what do we need to grow?

Meghan Chard: I’m still we’re still figuring it out now, [00:11:30] to be honest. Really, it’s still like, you know. Yeah. Because I mean, as you say, you know, [00:11:35] you’re just your dentist, aren’t you? So you’re kind of learning on the job.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Do you have a handle of it now? Like running [00:11:40] costs like these?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s taken a few years to get that way. To be honest, I’m not gonna lie. We’re winging it [00:11:45] quite a lot of the time. But now I do.

Payman Langroudi: This.

Meghan Chard: Business. Yeah, I do feel like now we’re definitely. And [00:11:50] I think parlour has massively helped with that. Oh, really? Yeah. To be honest, because, um. [00:11:55] Size, I had to learn about how to actually, you know, so in dentistry, you know, it’s quite, uh, [00:12:00] the money’s quite patients come in coming in and so not easy to make money, not [00:12:05] that way, but.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to toothpaste.

Meghan Chard: Like. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, your patients come in and it’s quite, you know, [00:12:10] you don’t have to do too much, especially if you’ve got, you know, an NHS contract and patients come in and see you regularly and they’re coming in. So, [00:12:15] so whereas with, with parlour, he had to, you know, really know the numbers and really sort of [00:12:20] um like reject. Yeah. And also just really, um, you [00:12:25] know, expenditure, you know, what the expenses are really have a handle on what’s incoming and [00:12:30] outgoing and things like that. So that’s sort of translated into our practice. Um, so that’s [00:12:35] been amazing because I’ve kind of learned from him then and now. We definitely have a much better handle [00:12:40] on it. And we know, you know, what materials are and this and that and the percentage. And, you know, we’re kind of finally [00:12:45] getting.

Payman Langroudi: Surprised you the most about practice ownership. Like even [00:12:50] though you’ve had all these people in your history who’ve been dentists, someone going into [00:12:55] practice ownership as an associate, what surprises you?

Meghan Chard: I [00:13:00] think the staff management is really tricky.

Payman Langroudi: Trickier than you thought it was.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:13:05] and then also the legality side of that, you know, like, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Meghan Chard: Of. Yeah. And [00:13:10] yeah. And all like your actual responsibilities and like pensions and this and that. And actually this is so it’s [00:13:15] like, it’s a whole, a whole job in itself is people have HR departments. Yeah, yeah. And that’s, you [00:13:20] know, you’re learning all that as you go along and you make some mistakes and you have some hairy moments and you’re like sugar, [00:13:25] you know? Um, so that I think is the hardest bit of, and I think when you ever speak to anyone [00:13:30] who’s a business owner, they will always say it’s managing the staff that is so challenging. Um, [00:13:35] so yeah, that’s what, that’s what I would say.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the top tips for managing staff [00:13:40] that you’ve learned in the last what is it eight years.

Meghan Chard: Top tips.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:13:45] let me give you an example. One thing I’ve learned, and I should have known this a long time ago, is that almost [00:13:50] body language is super important as the principal, you know, as, as the guy [00:13:55] at the top, when you walk in, you know, you gotta.

Meghan Chard: Bring the energy, you gotta bring the.

Payman Langroudi: Energy. Yeah. [00:14:00] It’s super important. Yeah. Um, there’s a, there’s a responsibility to being the boss. [00:14:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So like you say, bring the energy, but go on.

Meghan Chard: It’s like, it’s almost like being a parent in some ways. Like you’ve got [00:14:10] to show up every day and like, even if someone’s like annoyed you or someone has done something that you think is [00:14:15] really disrespectful, it’s gotta let it go. And like the next day it’s wake up and turn up and just bring [00:14:20] the energy. You can’t if you’re in a bad mood and you’re leading the team and you come in and you’ve given this negativity, [00:14:25] then it’s just going to infiltrate in throughout the team. So you have to show up every day and just bring the energy. And remember, [00:14:30] they’re looking up to you. Um, And you’re trying to lead them and trying to bring them on your [00:14:35] on this journey that you’re visualising with you.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay. I mean, you know, we’re [00:14:40] talking about delegating, for instance. Yeah. And some people are really good at it naturally and [00:14:45] others aren’t. You know, like I’m not delegating. Yeah. Yeah. Um, some people will say, look, [00:14:50] this is the goal. These are the milestones. This is how we’re going to check in on each other. Yeah. This is what success [00:14:55] looks like. This is what failure looks like. And really, you know, stick to that. Yeah. That’s a great delegator, right? I’m [00:15:00] more like, yeah, this is the end. Go figure it out. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Which one would you say you are? [00:15:05]

Meghan Chard: Um, what I probably do is give them the end. Then I realise it’s [00:15:10] not working and I have to backtrack and say like, okay, this is actually how we need [00:15:15] to do it. Um, but I think, yeah, it’s all in the communication, isn’t it? But it takes a while to delegate. I mean, at [00:15:20] first I was definitely doing everything, trying to do everything myself.

Payman Langroudi: Trusting.

Meghan Chard: Anyone. But then you can’t do it all. [00:15:25] Yeah. So you just gotta delegate and just. And then just keep checking in, I suppose. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: But I see, like, look, [00:15:30] I know Simon so well. Okay. I’d say his super strengths are he’s laser [00:15:35] focussed, he’s super ambitious, and he thinks in long [00:15:40] time frames. What would you say are your superpowers?

Meghan Chard: I [00:15:45] am like a little bit hyperactive, like in terms of like, I [00:15:50] can’t sit still. Some might call it ADHD. No, I joking. I don’t know who [00:15:55] knows what it is, but I just like to get things done. So like.

Payman Langroudi: Do you make decisions quite [00:16:00] quickly?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Which might be borderline impulsive.

Payman Langroudi: Do you trust do you trust your gut? [00:16:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I do actually, especially with people. Do you. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:16:10] a.

Meghan Chard: Super strength. And actually I think I’m really empathic. Like I’ll know if someone, something’s off with someone. [00:16:15] I’ll just sense it immediately.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a super.

Meghan Chard: Strength. Yeah. And that’s what I think. And I’ll be like that. [00:16:20] Something’s not quite right there.

Payman Langroudi: I remember in the early days when my wife was involved in enlighten, [00:16:25] I remember sometimes we used to sit at night talking about one person’s life, one person’s [00:16:30] issues in their life and, you know, so involved with the team that it was almost like a [00:16:35] family nightmare sometimes.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that does that resonate? Did you do that before, [00:16:40] or did you manage to dissociate and have the manager take.

Meghan Chard: There’s so many team. You do get sad, obviously [00:16:45] about certain things, but I think you just have to like you [00:16:50] can’t take everything on, on your shoulders. You’ve got your own stuff to deal with and you’ve only got a certain amount [00:16:55] of emotional bandwidth. Yeah. Um, and I think, I think you can’t take everyone’s, you know, worries [00:17:00] and struggles on. So you can, you can do what you can to help. But I think we’re quite good [00:17:05] that way. I mean, I’ll feel a bit say you hear some really bad news, you’ll feel really sad about it and down about it for [00:17:10] a little while. But then, you know, you’ve got to, you know, just you’ve got to crack on with other things, I suppose. But yeah. [00:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve had you had kids or pregnancy right at the beginning. And so [00:17:20] maybe that gave you some sort of understanding, some sort of, you know, like, you know, you gave some, some difference to like [00:17:25] your home life. And whereas we didn’t have kids when we started the company. Yeah. And I guess it was like a kid [00:17:30] in a way.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the juggle.

Meghan Chard: The juggle? The juggles a [00:17:35] lot.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Meghan Chard: It’s a lot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mothers who I have here, you’ve [00:17:40] got three kids. How old are they?

Meghan Chard: Seven. Four and one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Meghan Chard: You [00:17:45] know, we’ve just in the.

Payman Langroudi: Past month you manage to [00:17:50] do it.

Meghan Chard: All. I know. Honestly in the past month though my youngest has started sleeping through like properly. So I’m getting [00:17:55] seven hours of sleep now. So I feel like we’re entering a new era. Mhm. Um, are [00:18:00] the you know, what I find really hard is obviously [00:18:05] you’ve got the drop off and the pickup and all that sort of stuff, but I find it really hard to have like a clinical brain and [00:18:10] then a business brain and then a home brain and then like a wife brain. [00:18:15] I find it really hard to switch between all those things. And I think just being a mom alone, you’ve got [00:18:20] thousands and thousands of decisions you have to make, you know, and think about, you know, all the homework and what uniform [00:18:25] they need, because every day is a different uniform or they’ve got a party coming up, so you need to buy some presents, and they’re [00:18:30] growing out of those clothes and they’re going away next week. So we need to like get some new socks or some new shoes, like the decisions, [00:18:35] you know, you go out for the day and you’re like, right, I need, you know, I’m thinking, right, spare clothes and nappies [00:18:40] and snacks because we might not get home just quite on time. So I need to make them snacks and dessert.

Meghan Chard: And I think [00:18:45] I know Simon’s got a lot on his plate, but I think the difference between a mom and a dad [00:18:50] is that we take that all that on. And I think it’s draining. I think it’s like it just [00:18:55] your brain never stops. Um, so I find that hard trying to switch between [00:19:00] the different roles and even at work, you know, um, I’ll sedate [00:19:05] patients sometimes and things like that. So I was running late in the morning and I was sedating [00:19:10] a patient for two other dentists. So they were waiting for me to finish and I was running late. So [00:19:15] I was getting a bit flappy, and I had to nip upstairs to the office to get all my sedation stuff [00:19:20] out. And then my manager was like, oh, Meg, um, just need to a. Quickly talk to you about fire the staff [00:19:25] fire training. So I booked into it and I was like, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t like switch [00:19:30] to that brain. And that’s what I find really hard. Like I’m always multitasking and switch and switch tasking [00:19:35] and I just find that really draining. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it’s, I think that’s hard when [00:19:40] you’ve got like different elements going on.

Payman Langroudi: My wife used to say that she used to see doing [00:19:45] the actual clinical work as me time. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you can just focus on [00:19:50] one thing at a time.

Payman Langroudi: Sad state of affairs. Man with crown prep is me time a. [00:19:55]

Meghan Chard: Real.

Payman Langroudi: Luxury?

Meghan Chard: Uh, yeah. No, I can relate to that. I can understand, so yeah, it’s [00:20:00] it’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, I look at Instagram and I know this is the way Instagram looks, right? [00:20:05] You look like you’ve got it all, you know, you’re on one minute you’re on holiday, next minute you’re [00:20:10] on a, on a one on one date night with Simon. And there’s kids and clearly [00:20:15] none of us have it. All right.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. No. And I don’t think you can have it all either, to be honest. [00:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: It depends what all is. Right.

Meghan Chard: And everyone’s all is different.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re.

Meghan Chard: I mean, I do have it all in some ways, but, [00:20:25] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, but.

Meghan Chard: You.

Payman Langroudi: Could be 100 practices. You haven’t got that right.

Meghan Chard: And clinically I’m, you know, [00:20:30] like I’ve been, to be honest with you, um, you know, I feel like I’ve been hiding under a rock for the last eight [00:20:35] years because I’ve been trying for a baby, pregnant, having a baby, trying for the next baby [00:20:40] pregnant.

Payman Langroudi: This is what I was going to ask. What gives? Yeah. For you. So you’re saying your clinical [00:20:45] progression gave a little bit?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I don’t think I could. You can’t. For me, that was [00:20:50] for me. I’ve always wanted a family that was like a priority for me. Yeah. So that was what I wanted. [00:20:55] Um, so as a result I had to take a step back from clinical and then, you know, you’ve got the practice side of [00:21:00] things as well. So maybe if I didn’t own a practice, my clinical would have gone that way. But then we have a practice. So [00:21:05] that gives us our lifestyle and things like that. So, um, and our flexibility and our autonomy. [00:21:10] So that’s kind of the priority in that. So, um, so clinical has definitely taken [00:21:15] a step back. Um, and now if I’m being completely honest, I feel [00:21:20] after three kids there’s probably about a three three brain cells left in there, so it’s really hard. My [00:21:25] memory is gone and it’s a real thing. Yeah. And, you know, it’s, um, you know, [00:21:30] we’re friends and I know my friend’s kids names, but in the moment I’m talking and I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Like, yeah, I know that.

Meghan Chard: I can’t think [00:21:35] of like my best friend’s kids names and it’s awkward and you’re like, oh, you know, you know, your [00:21:40] little love, you know? And so it’s, I find that really challenging. Like, I find it really hard to kind of get clinically [00:21:45] kind of keep remembering things and trying to learn things, you know, because I feel like I’ve got, you [00:21:50] know, a million plates spinning in your brain and there’s only so much you can hold on to, you know, [00:21:55] so that’s, that’s challenging because I used to be, you know, I used to be, you know, like [00:22:00] I used to be really like, really on it, you know, and love learning and doing all the new [00:22:05] techniques and things and, and then, you know, for the past eight years, I’ve had to take a step back, which is fine because [00:22:10] I’m so happy with what I’m so happy with what I’ve, what I’ve got. I’m like, I’m so happy. So, but [00:22:15] something has to give essentially.

Payman Langroudi: To give is the point, right? And you know, it’s not going to be the children. Yeah. [00:22:20] It’s not going to be the business. Yeah. Um, looks like you’re not you know, you’re taking care of yourself. [00:22:25] You’re going for runs and things often it’s that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship. Yeah. Let’s [00:22:30] not you know let’s not beat about the bush. The relationship needs time as well. Right. Um, but something has [00:22:35] to give and I speak to people.

Meghan Chard: You need to have a holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Holidays. Holidays. Do you have a [00:22:40] nanny? Yeah. You need a nanny? Yeah. You need a.

Meghan Chard: Village. You need a village, to be honest with you. [00:22:45] Do you know we. For my third, I thought I’m gonna treat myself to. So we have, like, um.

Payman Langroudi: A night [00:22:50] nanny, a night nurse.

Meghan Chard: No, I never, I never had a night nanny.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay.

Meghan Chard: Just just [00:22:55] it was a martyr for that one. Just did it for all three. Just took the took the hit. But it’s [00:23:00] fine. You know what? It’s you know, it’s part of part of motherhood. Um, yeah, we have a nanny now. Um, [00:23:05] my two clinical days that I go to work, she comes in at 6 a.m. and she stays at 6 [00:23:10] p.m. and that means that’s why you might see, you know, an Instagram me and Sy in the same room because [00:23:15] we have that time to exercise. Otherwise we never exercise together. Otherwise we have to tag team it. [00:23:20] But on those two days we get to exercise at the same time. And like this morning we did some hierarchy [00:23:25] training. We went for runs and and that’s amazing. And I remember when [00:23:30] I just had two kids, you know, we didn’t have a nanny that would come in the morning and I would basically [00:23:35] do my workout, get the kids ready, you know, get our lunch ready, get our scrubs ready. And like, it was just, [00:23:40] it was just so busy. And by the time I got to work, I was just so stressed, like dropping one kid off here and another kid off [00:23:45] here. And I remember thinking, oh my God, it is such a juggle. And then third time around, we just treated [00:23:50] ourselves to a nanny and she’s amazing. And, um, yeah, I’d say she comes at 6 a.m. and [00:23:55] we come to work and I’m like, right, I’m ready to take on the day. It’s so nice. Honestly, it’s worth [00:24:00] every penny. And it’s just to kind of give your life some harmony and some balance. Yeah. Of course. Um, that was [00:24:05] a game changer. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, I think it’s so important for a woman to have a career so [00:24:10] important, you know, why not? Yeah. That’s correct. That piece of your head that [00:24:15] that addresses progression and being good at something and, you know, you [00:24:20] know, giving something to the world, it’s giving something back to the world. It’s a really important part of your brain. [00:24:25] Um, God forbid something happens. You can, you could, you can feed your children. There’s [00:24:30] that obvious, obvious part of it as well.

Meghan Chard: But we’re so lucky in dentistry. Yeah. Because not a lot of flexibility. [00:24:35] Yeah. You know, when you speak to other mums in the playground, like they don’t [00:24:40] work because they can’t have something that’s flexible or the money’s just not enough that it’s not worth, [00:24:45] you know, the sort of childcare and things like that. Or you have to work full time. It’s really tricky. So I feel very [00:24:50] privileged that way.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to talk about kids the whole time. But you said [00:24:55] you definitely wanted children. Have you always definitely wanted children, or was there a time where you weren’t [00:25:00] sure or, you know? Because I come across lots of teams, team members say, oh, I never want [00:25:05] a kid now have three children. Yeah. What was that like? Do you relate it back to your [00:25:10] own childhood or what was it about you knowing that you want to be a mom?

Meghan Chard: Just always loved [00:25:15] babies. When I was a kid, I was young, you know? I was the youngest of four. Okay. So I think I always wanted my parents [00:25:20] have another baby, but obviously I’m the youngest of four. They already had enough. And [00:25:25] so they obviously never had any more. And I always wanted a younger brother or sister. And so any time [00:25:30] there was a little baby around, I always loved like playing with them. Um, and so yeah, that was that was [00:25:35] it really just love, love kids.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and that decision just stuck through to adulthood. Yeah. It’s interesting, [00:25:40] isn’t it?

Meghan Chard: I know, and like I wanted my own family since I was a little girl when you were a child yourself. It’s very strange, [00:25:45] but obviously it’s that internal drive, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: You know, it’s biology.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: So, um. Yeah, [00:25:50] always, you know, always wanted kids. Um, kind of always wanted it all really. That’s the thing, you know, I wanted the [00:25:55] kids wanted to have like a career, um, always fiercely independent. I’ve always wanted to be able to like, [00:26:00] support myself as well. That was kind of my main focus. Um, so [00:26:05] yeah, that’s kind of my background really.

Payman Langroudi: So well, [00:26:10] While we’re there, let’s talk about your aunt. Your your aunt by marriage [00:26:15] was president of Ireland. Yeah, it’s pretty.

Meghan Chard: Major.

Payman Langroudi: Mary [00:26:20] McAleese. Yeah, I’m a massive fan. I’m a. That’s good. Your aunt’s way more famous than your [00:26:25] husband. Um, I’m a massive fan of hers. But tell me that. I mean, [00:26:30] the question of, like, in your family history, was there something about, you know, women being empowered, [00:26:35] educated? I know she was an academic, wasn’t she?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. But she came from like, she’s [00:26:40] the eldest of nine kids. Really? I don’t think they had a lot of money, but yeah, she, I think so [00:26:45] my, my parents and, and my uncle, my auntie, they’re from Belfast. So like they were Catholics. [00:26:50] Um, and I guess going up during the troubles, they were like second class citizens. Um [00:26:55] and so I think for them just to get out of poverty, you know, there are a lot of jobs that weren’t available for Catholic people and [00:27:00] things like that. So for them, education was like, number one, to get out of poverty and get out, [00:27:05] you know, to get yourself up in the world. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so in your house, was that like an ingrained [00:27:10] to you kids ingrained?

Meghan Chard: My parents were both teachers. So and, you know, obviously, you know, [00:27:15] they, they gave us everything they had, but they had four kids and they gave us piano lessons and this lessons [00:27:20] and that and that. So we didn’t have a lot of money. Don’t get me wrong, you know, we weren’t on the breadline, but we didn’t have we didn’t have luxuries [00:27:25] growing up, you know, we didn’t go on like holidays and things like that. Like, you know, we’d go to Ireland on holiday. [00:27:30] That was a holiday to see family. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: They were you not in Ireland.

Meghan Chard: Or. No. So basically [00:27:35] they left Ireland because of the troubles.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Meghan Chard: And my parents met in Manchester, [00:27:40] they went to become teachers in Manchester and then they never went back to Belfast because it was 80s. [00:27:45] And it was like stuff was, you know, shit was going down. So they actually went to the Bahamas [00:27:50] interestingly. Well, yeah, like completely different. And when I think about that, I think, wow, like [00:27:55] going from Belfast to like a tiny island in the middle of like, oh my [00:28:00] God, like a completely different, um, so they went there for a few years and then eventually they decided [00:28:05] to go back to Manchester because the troubles were still going on. So yeah, I kind of grew up a bit in Manchester [00:28:10] and then went back to Ireland for my secondary school and then we came back to Manchester. [00:28:15] So I’m kind of like an Irish Mancunian is how I describe myself basically.

Payman Langroudi: Belfast. So interesting. [00:28:20] My dad studied at Queens.

Meghan Chard: Oh really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And back in the 60s. And he [00:28:25] said because he was neither a Catholic or Protestant, they always used to [00:28:30] come to him to, to like him and his friends, to like be president of the students union or whatever. [00:28:35] Brilliant.

Meghan Chard: You know, neutral territory. I love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Meghan Chard: What did he study? [00:28:40]

Payman Langroudi: Economics. Economics. And it was like a big group that used to get sent by the oil [00:28:45] company to, to study abroad. And for some reason Belfast was a place that they studied.

Meghan Chard: But [00:28:50] it’s so random.

Payman Langroudi: But my dad’s like a very strict atheist. He’s [00:28:55] very much does not believe in God. And he was saying how funny it was that these, these two groups that [00:29:00] were so close to each other trusted him. So he doesn’t believe in God.

Meghan Chard: And [00:29:05] they’re fighting over and.

Payman Langroudi: They’re fighting over the smallest thing.

Meghan Chard: I know.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:29:10] the troubles, I mean, we go to Belfast a lot with our course and [00:29:15] what a great town it is now. What a great. It goes to show, doesn’t it, that if you let a let a people [00:29:20] thrive, they can thrive.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yet your parents had to leave. Yeah. Because [00:29:25] of the troubles. Yeah. It’s really tough, man.

Meghan Chard: I know, but it’s a great place. The people are [00:29:30] so friendly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s hard. I can understand the accent, but I can imagine other people cannot [00:29:35] understand.

Payman Langroudi: You say, come again?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, the accent is great. [00:29:40] I mean, Simon couldn’t understand my dad at first. My dad would be like, could you pass the salt, please? [00:29:45] And I’m like, you have no idea.

Payman Langroudi: Boy, can they drink. Yeah. You know, when [00:29:50] we go out on the social. My goodness, everyone’s out till 3 a.m. and [00:29:55] then the next day, everyone looks like they’re completely okay.

Meghan Chard: Like I I’ve lost those that [00:30:00] ability. I’m like, you know, the hangovers are unreal for me now, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so [00:30:05] look in amongst all of this now you’ve found an interest in airway obstruction. [00:30:10]

Meghan Chard: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And childhood airway obstruction.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is super interesting. So [00:30:15] let’s, let’s talk about that because airway dentistry is becoming very fashionable. [00:30:20] Mhm. And I guess we’re talking about sleep apnoea and snoring and all of that. And devices [00:30:25] you can put in adults. Yeah. For a start to help with that. But let’s talk about what are the for [00:30:30] children? What are the firstly, the signs and symptoms of a child who’s having airway [00:30:35] obstruction. Yeah. What should we be looking out for. And then what are the treatments.

Meghan Chard: So [00:30:40] the thing is sleep disordered breathing is kind of the sort of big headline the title. [00:30:45] And essentially it’s like a disruption in a child’s, you know, you know, even [00:30:50] adults obviously can have sleep disordered breathing. And essentially it’s a disruption in their normal breathing [00:30:55] habits while they’re sleeping. And it’s a spectrum. So it ranges from kind of mouth breathing at [00:31:00] night to sort of some snoring to upper airway resistance syndrome, to obstructive [00:31:05] sleep apnoea. So it ranges from kind of resistance and restriction. So not getting as much oxygen [00:31:10] in um, all the way to kind of complete collapsing of the airways and getting no oxygen in at all. [00:31:15] And what that means is, um, it affects the amount of oxygenation that’s occurring in [00:31:20] your body at night when you’re sleeping and it affects your ability to get into deep restorative sleep. [00:31:25] And, you know, obviously deep restorative sleep is essential. You know, you have so many.

Payman Langroudi: Sorts of different.

Meghan Chard: Systems, everything, [00:31:30] everything in your body, you know, you need to sleep, you know, if you don’t sleep, you actually will die. So, um, [00:31:35] you know, during deep restorative sleep, you have, you know, your brain is flushed out of toxins and [00:31:40] waste products. Um, and actually build up of these products is linked to kind of Alzheimer’s and dementia. So [00:31:45] it’s really important that, you know, when you’re sleeping, you have continuous deep sleep. So this process can keep [00:31:50] happening several times throughout the night. Um, so obviously.

Payman Langroudi: You on, on one of the posts, you [00:31:55] had a picture of an MRI of someone who slept really well.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And someone who hasn’t slept is massively different. [00:32:00]

Meghan Chard: Yeah, the firing up there, the brain, you know, and you know, those areas are involved with memory, decision [00:32:05] making, problem solving. So if they’re not firing up properly, like, you know, you know, [00:32:10] it’s like, for example, sleep deprived parents, you know, they struggle. They’re like, you know, your memory, you know, your.

Payman Langroudi: Brain [00:32:15] fog.

Meghan Chard: Brain fog, you can’t think, you can’t really function. It’s really tough. Um, and the reason [00:32:20] why I’m so passionate about it with children is because children are going through such rapid [00:32:25] growth and development. It’s like it really affects them way more than an adult. And with an adult, [00:32:30] it’s really bad. Like, you know, it can cause depression, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, stroke. It’s linked, [00:32:35] you know, with all these things. But in a child, they’re like massively growing, you know, and. [00:32:40]

Payman Langroudi: The mental.

Meghan Chard: Stuff. And they need that oxygen. That’s their powerhouse, you know, and so, [00:32:45] um, then therefore it’s going to affect them massively at school with their learning, with their behaviour. [00:32:50] You know, I know I’m emotional wreck if I’ve not had a good night’s sleep, but you know, with children, um, [00:32:55] with their focus, with their attention, Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so crazy, isn’t it, that even when [00:33:00] you were a kid, you remember there was some kid who used to come to school like, um, naughty [00:33:05] or. Yeah, you know, something. And, and, you know, okay, nowadays we call, we call that [00:33:10] ADHD, but I heard sleep apnoea has something to do with that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So, so, so [00:33:15] sleep disordered breathing is kind of linked with like, so let me [00:33:20] rephrase. So 50% of ADHD cases have sleep disordered breathing.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:33:25]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So what you should always do is if your child’s been diagnosed with ADHD is always [00:33:30] look at the sleep. It might not be the sleep, but always look at the sleep because there’s a 1 in 2, 1 in 2 [00:33:35] children sleep anyway. Right? Exactly. Um, but obviously if your child is, [00:33:40] say, mouth breathing, which is kind of the main things that I’m trying to like educate people on [00:33:45] if their mouth breathing, it’s limiting the amount of oxygen that they’re getting in. Imagine, you know, with an adult, [00:33:50] you know, we provide them with a, if they’ve got if they’re snoring, we provide them with a the mandibular [00:33:55] advancement splint. Yeah. And you’re doing that because it’s opening up the airways, right. [00:34:00] So if your mouth breathing as a child. And that’s because when they’re snoring, their snoring, because their mouth [00:34:05] the mouth’s open and the snoring with the, with the oropharynx is it’s like kind of that vibration, right? So [00:34:10] same thing was the child. When the mouth is open, the jaw hinges back and [00:34:15] it compresses the airways. Yeah. And actually, um, which I find mind blowing, an [00:34:20] average seven year old’s airways is seven millimetres in diameter. Uh, [00:34:25] and if that mandible hinges open just by half an inch, it can actually close it up by [00:34:30] six millimetres. I’ve actually got some straws in my bag to show you. Can I show you? Sure. Of course. [00:34:35] So this is an average sort of airway of a seven year old. And if their mandible drops open by half an [00:34:40] inch, it can actually do that, right. So can you imagine trying to breathe all your essential oxygen when [00:34:45] you’re a child through something like this?

Payman Langroudi: So we’re looking at a massive straw and a tiny straw, basically. [00:34:50] Yeah. Yeah. That really that shows it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Right. So, um, and so then what happens [00:34:55] is the child is getting fragmented, deep restorative sleep. So they’re basically sleep deprived. [00:35:00] And so it affects their body in so many different ways. And what that looks like that they, they, the symptoms, [00:35:05] the outward symptoms of this are basically they look to the outside [00:35:10] world when you don’t know that they’re linked, they look random. So they could be, could be bedwetting, tooth [00:35:15] grinding, um, ADHD symptoms, um, you know, sweaty, restless sleep, [00:35:20] morning headaches, eczema, asthma, um, you know, all these [00:35:25] things and people then start treating them separately, right? So if you’ve got like eczema, you need all these lotions, [00:35:30] if you have asthma, your inhalers, if you’ve got ADHD medication, [00:35:35] you know, or you know, you’ve got anxiety, you know, if [00:35:40] you don’t have enough sleep, you’re anxious the next day, anxiety, a case of therapy or whatever, or medication. [00:35:45] So all these things are kind of looked at separately.

Payman Langroudi: And do we have any idea what percentage [00:35:50] of children are having this issue.

Meghan Chard: Well, there’s lots of different studies [00:35:55] that show different things. I mean, I’m linked with this company by which, you know, we can talk [00:36:00] about later or not. I don’t mind forever, but um, the baby, um, they have done some studies [00:36:05] and I know obviously it’s, they’ve done their own studies, but it’s just an indicator of the scale of [00:36:10] the problem. So they did a study on 500 children, and nine out of ten of those [00:36:15] children were displaying at least one sign of sleep disordered breathing. And there were other studies that [00:36:20] are showing 70%, 60%, 80%, but a lot of children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Are [00:36:25] like, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Um, suffering.

Meghan Chard: Suffering from this. It’s an endemic. And, [00:36:30] you know, in America, in Australia, they are all over it. All the American academies. [00:36:35] So the American, uh, paediatric, orthodontic, the Ada, they all [00:36:40] say that dentists should be screening for sleep disordered breathing in children. Um, [00:36:45] and in the UK, unfortunately we’re quite behind, uh, in that.

Payman Langroudi: We tend to be. Yeah, but [00:36:50] tell me. So when you say screening, what do I do as a dentist?

Meghan Chard: So you, um, so [00:36:55] I use a sleep questionnaire and what I would do is I would do when I see a child for an examination, [00:37:00] the first thing I look at is basically any tooth wear. And I’m parents come to me all the [00:37:05] time. I’m like, oh, they’re grinding their teeth. I can hear them through the next door. Is that normal? And before I knew [00:37:10] any, any of this, I used to think, oh yeah. I mean, you know, they’ll just kind of grow out of it. Didn’t really know what to [00:37:15] do and couldn’t make them a night guard because their teeth were exfoliation. Right. And you’re like, you know, unless [00:37:20] their parents are millionaires and they want to every six months, you know. Um, but now I [00:37:25] know that it’s a bit of a red flag. And so if I see tooth wear, I’ll then look at the palate and I’m like, oh my goodness, [00:37:30] the palate is really high and narrow. Or I look at the baby teeth and there’s no spacing between the baby teeth that [00:37:35] they’ve got the perfect aligned teeth already. And they shouldn’t have that because they need the space for the adult [00:37:40] teeth to come through or, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So as you see these signs, one after the other, it [00:37:45] gives you it’s almost like detective work. Yeah, exactly. You get you get the sort of stronger and stronger inkling that there is a problem. [00:37:50]

Meghan Chard: And then I’ll say, so, you know, I had an emergency patient in a couple of weeks ago and they came. The parents were worried [00:37:55] that a tooth had come out and was coming, you know, just something that wasn’t really an emergency. But they were, you know, how [00:38:00] some parents can be a bit bit worried about a tooth coming through in the wrong place or something. So they came through [00:38:05] and she was five or something, and all her baby teeth at the front were like perfectly aligned, [00:38:10] no spaces. And then I looked at her palate and it was narrow and her teeth were a bit worn. So I just [00:38:15] said to them, does she snore at night at all? Like, how’s her sleep? And they were like, yep, she snores. [00:38:20] She’s so sweaty. She’s up several times in the night. She sleeps in [00:38:25] all these funny positions. So she’s there like she sleeps with the neck always like this. And that’s, [00:38:30] that’s the child’s way of trying to body’s way of trying to keep the airway, trying to keep the airway open.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: And [00:38:35] all these things. And they’re like, we’ve been to paediatricians and they just said she’ll grow out of it and this and that. And, [00:38:40] and they were so relieved I’d actually asked these questions because they knew deep [00:38:45] down that something wasn’t right. But no one knowing the no. You know, no one knew what [00:38:50] was going on. And so when I was asking these questions, I felt like a massive relief that actually, oh [00:38:55] my goodness, there is something going on here.

Payman Langroudi: So by the way, such a beautiful moment. That moment.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:39:00] honestly, I get like, I get goosebumps and like teary every time. Yeah. The parents like, because the parents get really [00:39:05] emotional. Um, because they know something’s not right, but they don’t know what and they go to the GP [00:39:10] and, you know, we’re not trained on this sort of thing. So no one really, obviously I’m in a group, [00:39:15] so I know lots of people now in the industry, but it’s kind of like, you know, on Instagram, the algorithm, it [00:39:20] knows that I’m into airway space now. So all I see is airways. So I think there’s, I think everyone knows about [00:39:25] airways, but really not really that many people do. So I feel really passionate about trying [00:39:30] to, um, spread the word on this because, uh, yeah, I think it’s, it’s mega.

Payman Langroudi: I think the moment [00:39:35] of diagnosis. We need to talk about it more. It’s such a beautiful moment. It’s such a beautiful thing. I think when, [00:39:40] when I’ve had a parent or someone who’s had a particular issue, we don’t [00:39:45] know what it is. And then someone definitively says that x plus y plus [00:39:50] z equals this diagnosis. And at least, you know.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, it’s a relief, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And, [00:39:55] and one of the privileges of our job really, because, you know, there’s things like taking people out [00:40:00] of pain. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: It’s massive, isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It a beautiful thing? But then I expect once you do [00:40:05] the treatment, does the parent is the parent now expecting bruxism to stop? So [00:40:10] what do you say about that?

Meghan Chard: I mean so I mean. When [00:40:15] you say treatment. So I mean there’s obviously lots of different. So what is [00:40:20] really important to note about sleep disordered breathing is that it’s a massive jigsaw puzzle. Yeah. And there’s lots [00:40:25] of different pieces at play. So it’s not one. You can’t just wave a magic wand and [00:40:30] fix things because there’s usually several things going on at the same time. So it could be that, you know, they’ve got massive [00:40:35] adenoids and tonsils and that’s blocking the airway. So so they might be mouth breathing because [00:40:40] the adenoids are massive and they can’t breathe through their nose, so they’re opening their mouth. So that’s [00:40:45] kind of one element.

Payman Langroudi: Do you end up do you look for that?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I look for that. Look for the tonsil size now and I’ll refer out [00:40:50] if they’re if they’re big in T.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Um or I’ll tell parents [00:40:55] that’s really big. You need to go and speak to your GP and get referral or whatever. But again, a lot of GPS are not really [00:41:00] don’t really know about it. So I’ll just do referral to ENT now myself to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but ENT [00:41:05] is on to it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Well, I don’t know. I’m in, I’m in like a, a [00:41:10] a a group, you see, so I know certain, but I don’t think all of them, I don’t think there’s that many paediatric ents. [00:41:15] Mhm. Um because I think most people think you take your tonsils out for tonsillitis, [00:41:20] but you don’t, you take them out for airways. That’s kind of the reason why you would take them out more than tonsillitis. [00:41:25] Um but what else. You know, if the tongue isn’t like working properly, [00:41:30] then you need to train it up and strengthen it with myofunctional therapy. Because as dentists, I mean, [00:41:35] do you know how important the tongue is? The tongue’s like so important and we just were not trained on it at all. An undergrad. [00:41:40] But actually the tongue like positions. It shapes your palate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:45]

Meghan Chard: Um, and we all know if you’ve got a thumb sucker, we know about a low tongue position. Well, it’s mega because [00:41:50] you know, that palate is so narrow. And if that palate is so high and narrow, that’s going to interfere [00:41:55] with the nasal airways, then, which then means that child can’t nasally breathe as efficiently. And [00:42:00] that’s going to impact them into adulthood because nasal breathing is like really a basic pillar of health. [00:42:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so let’s keep going step by step. So you start noticing some of these signs and [00:42:10] symptoms. Yeah. You look for the other stuff that might need referral. Yeah. They filled out a form [00:42:15] and all of that. Yeah. What do we do as far as treatment [00:42:20] from a dentist side?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. From a dentist. So if you’re. So it depends on what stage the child’s in. [00:42:25] Yeah. Because if they’re kind of in their mixed dentition. Um, and you know, they’re adult, you know, the adult teeth are starting to [00:42:30] come through now then I would probably at that point and I can see this crowding, there’s not enough space for like the [00:42:35] twos or threes to come through. Then at that point, I would refer to an early interceptive orthodontist. [00:42:40] So we have Doctor Yasmin George who works for us. She’s amazing. I know a few, you know doctor [00:42:45] she’s amazing. There’s lots you know doctor Stefan Decker there’s a few early interceptive orthodontists [00:42:50] who will try and expand the palate at that point to then optimise, optimise [00:42:55] the space the teeth to come through, but also open up, you know.

Payman Langroudi: With a with a device. So that’s a [00:43:00] device maxillary.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um expansion.

Meghan Chard: Expansion. Yeah. Um so at that point [00:43:05] and then, you know, you let the teeth come through and then, you know, hopefully there’s more, there’s less, less crowding [00:43:10] less need less chance of needing teeth taken out. So that’s obviously amazing. Um, [00:43:15] so it depends on what.

Payman Langroudi: What age group can you do that in. Rapid maxillary expansion.

Meghan Chard: I think I mean [00:43:20] it depends. It depends on what what your sort of um I mean I’m not an expert. [00:43:25] Can I just point out on this. You know, I’m obviously learning as well.

Payman Langroudi: As you send it to them and they.

Meghan Chard: Said to them, yeah, but I mean it depends [00:43:30] on what it depends on the nature of the child. You know, I think if you’re, if your child’s really compliant, then maybe [00:43:35] five, you could even do it from. Yeah, but I think usually 7 or 8 is probably a good age because they’re kind of [00:43:40] a bit more aware and a bit more compliant at that point. Like my daughter is going to go for it. I’m going to get her a expanded. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: Much of intercepted you. I don’t know if you know this, but how much of interceptive orthodontics [00:43:50] is airway led and and how much of it is actually like alignment [00:43:55] led.

Meghan Chard: Or linked though. That’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But but but when, when they see a patient or [00:44:00] orthodontists onto the airway question.

Meghan Chard: Are orthodontists in general. Yeah. [00:44:05] Um, I mean I don’t want to speak out of turn or anything like that. So, um, I think [00:44:10] it’s becoming more and more commonplace. Yeah. But I think the issue is the NHS is so like integrally [00:44:15] tied into orthodontics that it’s tricky.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t get any of this on the [00:44:20] NHS.

Meghan Chard: You can’t know. That’s the thing. Um and it’s really tricky because, you know, I think if money [00:44:25] was no object and in an ideal world and we lived in an ideal world, you know, all children [00:44:30] would be assessed by 6 or 7. And then in America they do that. You have your first orthodontic orthodontic assessment [00:44:35] by seven. So in the UK, that’s what I would, you know, I would love to see happen, but [00:44:40] there isn’t the funding for that. That’s the issue. Um so orthodontists hands are tied. Um and then the [00:44:45] issue is even if you do expand the arches, they may still need orthodontics later. So it’s [00:44:50] quite expensive. Um and again, not everyone can afford that. But in an ideal world, I [00:44:55] think you would start early, expand as much as you can, and then hope that everything [00:45:00] you know is optimum and you don’t need people. Children don’t need extra well or less. Children [00:45:05] need extractions and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: I guess it depends on the percentage of those that actually do benefit. [00:45:10] Yeah, that would make the big difference as to whether or not you’d sort of screen everyone. If [00:45:15] we’re talking from the alignment perspective. Yeah. But the airway perspective.

Meghan Chard: From the airway perspective, because I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:20] much more compelling.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, 100% because it’s, it’s wellbeing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: It’s like a, it’s how [00:45:25] your, it’s your body, you know, it’s, you know, by just nasal breathing alone, you get 18% more oxygen. [00:45:30] So, you know, oxygen is like it’s your powerhouse, right? It’s your energy source.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so [00:45:35] last week I was, I was, I was in Sweden and, um, our business [00:45:40] development manager gave me one of those stickers to put on my nose.

Meghan Chard: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To open my nostrils. And [00:45:45] I had the best night’s sleep ever. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. I got on Amazon and bought, like, 100 of them. Um, [00:45:50] is that a thing?

Meghan Chard: I’ve not. Do you know what.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Meghan Chard: That? No, I think it is. I mean, [00:45:55] I’ve never used them because I feel I’ve got quite good nasal. Yeah. Like patency I suppose. [00:46:00] Um but I. Yeah. People swear by them and I’ve mouth taped a few times. Um I’ve [00:46:05] quite often I mouth tape not every night because sometimes I’ve got that many lotions and potions on [00:46:10] my face. It won’t stick to my oils. Um, you know, mouth [00:46:15] tape.

Payman Langroudi: Kids, do you ask, do you tell parents that they should do that?

Meghan Chard: I don’t know. I mean, I wouldn’t tell anyone to do that [00:46:20] because it’s like I just but but it.

Payman Langroudi: Seems a bit.

Meghan Chard: Much. I’ve done it on my own kids. Oh. Have you? That’s my kids and that’s my [00:46:25] responsibility. Yeah. Um, but I won’t tell anyone else’s. You wouldn’t. I wouldn’t do it in a dental professional Like [00:46:30] capacity. No way. Because I just think like. But even you can, [00:46:35] but I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. If not us, who who’s going to do it?

Meghan Chard: No, I know, but I think there’s so much like, you [00:46:40] know, like you need to make sure, you know, Nick can easily breathe. And, you know, there’s all this, like, what if they’re sick in [00:46:45] the night and, you know, all this sort of stuff. But I mean, I’ve, I’ve done it with my kids. Um, [00:46:50] and it’s been fine. And I, and I know people who have done it with their kids and they’ve had really positive responses [00:46:55] from it. Um, but I as a dentist, not saying that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:47:00] get it.

Meghan Chard: And that’s just my personal sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so tell me about the association with this, with [00:47:05] this product, what in what capacity are you associated?

Meghan Chard: So kind of a consultant for them in a way. [00:47:10] Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And how did it come about?

Meghan Chard: I know it’s a bit random, but [00:47:15] basically so, you know, it kind of all started, I did a snoring course when I, you know, a couple of years ago [00:47:20] for adults. So I’ve always kind of been interested in the airway space. And I’ve known Doctor Yasmin [00:47:25] for a while. In fact, Simon had his first job with Yasmin. Oh, really? And so we’ve [00:47:30] always known she’s been into early interceptive orthodontics and how it’s kind of linked with like bedwetting and things like [00:47:35] that. So I’ve always found that whole thing really interesting. And then I read Breath by [00:47:40] James Nestor. Have you read that?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah, we had someone on who was talking a lot about it. I haven’t read it. Oh.

Meghan Chard: Jamie, [00:47:45] you probably have. Jamie. Anyway, um, it’s an amazing book, I love it. I’ve read it several times. It’s [00:47:50] really, it’s fascinating. Um, and so I’ve kind of got into that. And then my second, my [00:47:55] middle child is a thumbsucker. So like, you know, it kind of stresses me out as a dentist [00:48:00] because I have no control over it. I’ve tried everything and I can’t get him to stop it. And his palate is so high, [00:48:05] narrow, and his teeth are like, he’s got an anterior open bite and his teeth are crowded at the front. And I and I’m [00:48:10] like, I know too much.

Payman Langroudi: I know.

Meghan Chard: Too much. I wish I didn’t know as much. So it causes me [00:48:15] a lot of stress. Um, anyway, we were um, in Portugal about two years ago [00:48:20] and um, we went for lunch with Miguel, and Miguel suddenly went for lunch with Miguel and his family. [00:48:25] And my son, um, was sucking his thumb.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: And we were talking, you know, about airways [00:48:30] and things like that. Um, and then and I was saying I was interested in and actually Miguel’s been [00:48:35] involved with this company, um, for a while and he was saying, oh, this company’s amazing. My children are [00:48:40] wearing this device. It does this, it does that, you know, and he’s.

Payman Langroudi: So ahead of his time, isn’t.

Meghan Chard: He? I know he’s yeah, [00:48:45] he’s very inspirational.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like we’re all going to be doing dentistry. Like Miguel’s been doing like in 20 years time [00:48:50] or something. Exactly.

Meghan Chard: He’s going to be doing it in a rocket or something then. Um. [00:48:55]

Payman Langroudi: And so his kids were on the same device.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And so he got me, he kind of [00:49:00] introduced me to the CEO, um, Leslie of B boy. And they’re called.

Payman Langroudi: An American company.

Meghan Chard: An American company. [00:49:05] They’re called Atherton. And actually Leslie is the daughter of the founder and he’s [00:49:10] a professor, Professor Burgess. And he was a specialist orthodontist. So he designed he created these [00:49:15] in the 1960s. Um, and he, you know, he studied like cephalometric cephalometric [00:49:20] radiographs, like the growth of children. Like he really knows what he’s talking about. So he created these [00:49:25] appliances. And then he’s kind of it’s a family business. And I just love their ethos. Like they genuinely do [00:49:30] really care. And they, you know, they, they like, they’ve been evolving this appliance over the last [00:49:35] however many decades. And so I kind of really aligned with their values, um. [00:49:40]

Payman Langroudi: Different ones. Or are they all the same appliance?

Meghan Chard: There are different appliances. So [00:49:45] there’s, there’s some, there’s a habit. The one that I’m sort of like trying to educate people on is a habit [00:49:50] corrector. Mhm. Um, and there are several different types, um, different brands [00:49:55] available. Um, I’ve chosen, I think, uh, b boy is [00:50:00] um, is different to anything else in the market because it’s got myofunctional therapy inbuilt [00:50:05] within the device. Whereas with other devices, you need to have myofunctional therapy exercises alongside [00:50:10] it, which is not necessarily a bad thing. You know, it is good to have myofunctional therapy is, is really, really important. [00:50:15] But at the same time, you know, um, compliance is really, I know that I personally, [00:50:20] I’m so busy with my kids and my life that I just, I’ve got homework to do this and that. It’s like [00:50:25] another thing to think about, and I get that. And whereas so when it’s inbuilt within the device, when [00:50:30] the child is wearing it at night and they’re swallowing hundreds of times a night, they’re doing these little kind of myofunctional [00:50:35] therapy exercises. So that’s why I think it’s quite unique.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a mandibular advancement.

Meghan Chard: It’s [00:50:40] not advancement. It holds. It’s a class one. It holds the child, but it stops it from slipping backwards. [00:50:45] So hold it in a class one position and then it encourages more forward growth, [00:50:50] which is better for the airways.

Payman Langroudi: And encourages the tongue up.

Meghan Chard: It puts the tongue up and it encourages the tongue [00:50:55] to swallow in the right way as well, which is which is really important because the tongue.

Payman Langroudi: And that itself [00:51:00] makes expansion of the.

Meghan Chard: Tongue. The tongue is like nature’s natural palate expander.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:05]

Meghan Chard: So when you’re swallowing, it’s such a thick, heavy, strong muscle that when you’re swallowing properly, [00:51:10] it kind of that continuous light pressure helps to.

Payman Langroudi: And how long, how long does the treatment last? How [00:51:15] long does it take? How many months do they have to wear that?

Meghan Chard: Well, I think they say treatment is kind of well, [00:51:20] they say like you need to wear it about for a year or so, but, um, it kind of depends. [00:51:25] You know, it depends. It’s not every child is different and some lips are really flaccid and, [00:51:30] but even then it’s kind of like even after a year or so, the child gets such benefit [00:51:35] from it and feels like they’ve had such a good night’s sleep from it. It’s kind of really comforting.

Payman Langroudi: Oh they continue.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. They continue [00:51:40] to wear it because it’s like it’s directing everything. It’s still helping. Uh, you know, it’s helping to put the tongue [00:51:45] in the right way and direct, you know, forward growth of the airways. Um, and, um, [00:51:50] also the amazing thing about it is that it’s not custom made, it’s stock. So it’ll actually last. So, you know, you [00:51:55] don’t have to take impressions every six months. It’ll last them. So for example, it ranges from 2 [00:52:00] to 4 and then 4 to 6.

Payman Langroudi: When there is it kind of boil and bite. [00:52:05] No, no just no.

Meghan Chard: And it’s it’s made like, no, it’s not, it’s not silicone. [00:52:10] It’s not, it’s not, you know, it’s not no far, it’s no, you know, um, BPA, it’s [00:52:15] like non-hazardous. Um, again, which I think makes it different from other appliances on the [00:52:20] market, I think. And it’s made an American factory. Yeah. So basically it’s 4 to 6. And then when [00:52:25] the child’s first adult molars come through, then it’s six plus, and then that child has that appliance until [00:52:30] their second molars come through. So you can have, you can have that, you know, say the second molars come through in the 10 [00:52:35] or 12. You can have that appliance for 4 to 6 years technically. And because it’s, it’s, [00:52:40] it’s like it’s just one device, you know. So that’s why, that’s why I think it’s great because it can last them a few years. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what does success looks like? Well, the child’s having better sleep and all that. Exactly. What does failure look [00:52:50] like? I mean, do some cases not work?

Meghan Chard: I guess compliance can be an issue. You know, you’re dealing with children so [00:52:55] compliance can be an issue. Um, and then, you know, I think so. So one study was done [00:53:00] with this device, um, on over 220 children. And [00:53:05] out of those 220 children, 75% of the cases improved, their symptoms improved. And they, [00:53:10] they investigated symptoms such as headaches, sore throats, um, bedwetting, um, [00:53:15] you know, sweating, you know, tooth teeth grinding. It was 2000 symptoms altogether, and [00:53:20] in total, of all the children and 75% of cases had an improvement, which [00:53:25] is amazing. And out of those symptoms, 38% had a 100% correction. So completely [00:53:30] went. However, 75% means that 25% didn’t notice anything. [00:53:35] So you have to always explain to parents, and I always explain to parents, look, this works in most people. Most [00:53:40] children, um, if they’ve got symptoms, obviously, if they’ve not got symptoms and they [00:53:45] don’t need it, um, but you’d make them um complete a sleep questionnaire first. So obviously [00:53:50] they have to, they have to be positive on certain things to make to, to, to show that they actually have, [00:53:55] you know, a strong signs of sleep disordered breathing. Um, and so yeah, I always explain [00:54:00] to patients to parents that, you know, in 75% of cases it’ll improve, but there’s always a, [00:54:05] there’s always a chance it might not. So you have to take the risk, obviously with that.

Payman Langroudi: And so you’ve been doing it long enough to see [00:54:10] some kids then thrive.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. You know, I’m still early on in it all. You know, I’ve [00:54:15] I’ve you know, so as I say, I’m my disclaimer is I’m not an expert. There’s people out there who’ve had [00:54:20] way more experience and things like that. But, you know, you’ve got to start somewhere. And I’m just passionate about getting the message out. And [00:54:25] do you know what I’m going to use, Simon? Use all the hard work that Simon’s done. You know, [00:54:30] he’s got his platform and you know, just just helps get the word out there basically. So, [00:54:35] um, yeah, I mean, I’ve had one, I’ve had several cases, but one particular case, um, [00:54:40] he was struggling with English, sorry, struggling with his reading and writing. Um, [00:54:45] he was very fidgety and difficulty in focusing at class. So [00:54:50] they gave him a stand up desk and he was to be assessed for ADHD. He [00:54:55] would sort of wet the bed every month. He would have sore throats, tonsillitis every couple of months, needing antibiotics, [00:55:00] time off school. Um, he, his mum would report his sleeping, [00:55:05] you know, he was very sweaty, very restless. Would knock things off the shelves up in the night, [00:55:10] wake up. Unrefreshed dark circles under his eyes. Um, and then basically [00:55:15] after like six and a half months, seven months of wearing the bee bite, um, he has had not one bedwetting [00:55:20] episode, not one sore throat. I’ve seen him for like a year and a half review now. [00:55:25] He’s never had tonsillitis since wearing the bee bite. Um, when he was having it every other month. He’s [00:55:30] not wet the bed once.

Payman Langroudi: Um and the mum, the mum’s attributing all of this to the mums like. [00:55:35]

Meghan Chard: Yes, like.

Payman Langroudi: He wakes up.

Meghan Chard: Feeling. Yeah. Honestly, I literally it makes me teary. Like he wakes up feeling [00:55:40] refreshed. He has won, uh, the headmaster’s award coming on leaps and bounds with his English, his [00:55:45] reading and his writing. I’m like, it’s incredible because I guess you’re just giving someone a good night’s sleep. Basically. [00:55:50] I’ve had another another case, for example, has had has eczema and the mums [00:55:55] tried like loads of different creams over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Steroids.

Meghan Chard: Everything, nothing worked. You know, just [00:56:00] after one month of wearing the bee bite, the kid was like, I’m less itchy. Like, isn’t that [00:56:05] mad? And again, school reports like the parents evening, normally the child’s like a bit sort of, you [00:56:10] know, not listening very well, you know. A bit fidgety, a bit distracted, really positive teachers [00:56:15] reports and things like that, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I can imagine someone listening to this feeling very [00:56:20] sceptical about all this. Yeah. But at the same time, when you take it back to.

Meghan Chard: The basics of [00:56:25] what it.

Payman Langroudi: Is, a good night’s sleep for a child. Yeah, it’s completely foundational. [00:56:30] It makes sense, doesn’t it? A good night’s sleep. Water nutrition. Yeah, exactly. A bit of [00:56:35] brain and exercise.

Meghan Chard: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s all a kid needs. You know, there’s those things [00:56:40] we’re talking about one of the four pillars of childhood. And then you really would [00:56:45] think anything’s possible with a better night’s sleep.

Meghan Chard: I mean, if you’re if I’m in a funky mood [00:56:50] or I feel a bit low or something, I just I just know I need a good night’s sleep. I just know I need to go to bed early, [00:56:55] get a good night’s sleep, and the next day I’ll be a different person. Yeah, it just makes you bring it back to [00:57:00] the basics. It just makes sense. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Once I didn’t sleep for two nights in a row [00:57:05] cramming for finals or something, cramming for something. It was some exam. Two nights in a [00:57:10] row. Yeah. We found these caffeine tablets if you’ve ever tried them.

Meghan Chard: The pro [00:57:15] plus ones.

Payman Langroudi: On the second night, they weren’t working anymore. And then someone, someone [00:57:20] found this, like this orange powder. That was for, like, bodybuilders. Yeah, but [00:57:25] it was, it was it kept you awake. It kept you awake. So I had that.

Meghan Chard: But were you even productive, though? I [00:57:30] mean.

Payman Langroudi: This was this was going to say the reason we did two nights in a row was because it was two exams [00:57:35] in a row. The first one, I was like, thank God, because, you know, there was no way I would [00:57:40] have passed. Yeah, I needed that night. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Just to kind of get the last bit in.

Payman Langroudi: But the second one I [00:57:45] was, it was all surgery. And the question was differential diagnosis of a swelling in the palate. [00:57:50] Yeah, I was writing bullshit. Yeah. I knew I was writing bullshit, but I couldn’t [00:57:55] stop myself. It was almost like an inhibitory mechanism wasn’t kicking in. You know, like, you [00:58:00] know, like, I don’t know if maybe this is just me. You know, you’re driving your car and you think, should I just drive straight into an oncoming car? [00:58:05] And you think, no, no, I better not. You know that inhibitory thing? Yeah. That [00:58:10] wasn’t kicking in. Yeah, I was writing crap. I wasn’t even using like, like medical terms. [00:58:15] I was like, yeah, if you have a hot pizza and stuff.

Meghan Chard: But [00:58:20] I mean, I have either that is why.

Payman Langroudi: Two night’s sleep.

Meghan Chard: It’s like the Japanese is a form of torture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:58:25] yeah, yeah. You’re right. And then, you know, people who take their own lives often can’t [00:58:30] sleep.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And again, I’m sure there’s an inhibitory thing going on.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:58:35] yeah, I’m sure it affects everything. I want to talk about parlour. [00:58:40]

Meghan Chard: Um.

Payman Langroudi: How’s that been for you guys? I mean, it’s a I’m [00:58:45] in toothpaste, right? It’s a bloody hard business. Bloody hard. Anything that’s [00:58:50] like, you know, £10, you have to sell hundreds of thousands of them.

Meghan Chard: It makes dentistry look so much [00:58:55] like easy, doesn’t it? In some ways. Like you just do a filling. Yeah. How many, how many, how many, how many toothpaste [00:59:00] tubes is a filling?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The lovely thing about a dental practice is you need about, you need to convert [00:59:05] about a thousand people’s opinions. Yeah. And you’re done. Yeah. If a thousand people love [00:59:10] you, you can have an amazing Dental practice or practice or whatever. But in a business [00:59:15] like that, literally, you need to move the market. Yeah. Um, and I [00:59:20] remember when we started the first six years were disgusting. I mean, disgusting, [00:59:25] terrible. We were literally firefighting for the whole of that time. [00:59:30]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I can, I can, I can very much, you know, imagine relate that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:59:35] tell me. Yeah. Tell me about that. The what [00:59:40] did you think it was going to be like before you started? What was it like as you started the, [00:59:45] the. Simon told me the moment. The moment it got into boots, he thought that was the end of it. And [00:59:50] he thought. He thought that.

Meghan Chard: Was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s everything’s over. He’s made.

Meghan Chard: It. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:59:55] yeah yeah, exactly.

Meghan Chard: Um, do you know Simon gets his ideas? And I was kind of let [01:00:00] him go with it. You know, he gets lots and lots of ideas. Like sometimes this is kind of a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Of a it’s a massive strength, [01:00:05] by the way.

Meghan Chard: Oh, it’s amazing, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Of yours, of yours to let him.

Meghan Chard: To.

Payman Langroudi: Let.

Meghan Chard: Him go. [01:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Go for it. Yeah. Like you could have, you could have just extinguished that flame in a moment if you wanted [01:00:15] to. Right.

Meghan Chard: You know? Yeah. But, you know, I think that’s why I obviously love love about being [01:00:20] with Simon. You know, like, um, I feel like I’m on, like, a rocket ship, to [01:00:25] be honest. I’m strapped in and, you know, I think for me, you know, [01:00:30] you know, this has. So for me, just to be a dentist was basically my ultimate goal. [01:00:35] Right. And for me, I was like, I’ve made it. I’ve done it right. That’s like his. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Boots.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I was happy with that. And I genuinely was so happy. I was like, right, jump through all these hoops I’ve got [01:00:45] there now. I’m so happy. I’m so proud. That’s great. And I’d be happy. [01:00:50] I would have been happy plodding along, but I would have probably lived a very ploddy life and a very like [01:00:55] autopilot life, to be honest. Um, happy, but like a bit, but not living [01:01:00] to my full, full potential. And I feel like with being with Cy, he keeps pushing [01:01:05] our like boundaries to the next step, which is amazing because now the [01:01:10] life that I’m living now is something that I could never have even imagined. Like I literally [01:01:15] am living my best life, you know? I’m so lucky. Um, and but he keeps pushing [01:01:20] even still, you know, which is a blessing and a curse in some ways. I can imagine. Um, but for me, [01:01:25] I’m just happy to go along with the ride because it’s not my mental headspace thinking about this. I’m [01:01:30] just like the OP. So if Cy has an idea, I’ll just kind of go along with it. But it doesn’t [01:01:35] like, like I’ll take one step at a time and go along with it. But I’m not, it’s not the [01:01:40] headspace for me to like, be thinking about all this, you know? Yeah. Um, so, um, yeah, [01:01:45] so my point is, sorry, I digress here. So my point is, yeah, when Cy had this idea with, you know, [01:01:50] the toothpaste. And to be fair, my caveat is like actually at uni, he did say he always wanted to [01:01:55] make his own toothpaste toothpaste. I remember like, you know, studying and.

Payman Langroudi: I was a BS just now and [01:02:00] I bet a thousand people want to make their own.

Meghan Chard: Tv. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Doing it.

Meghan Chard: That’s exactly [01:02:05] so. Well, exactly. So when he said, you know, when he said he was going to do it, I was kind [01:02:10] of like, okay, fine. You know, I didn’t really think much of it. I just thought, you know, he’ll try it and that’s it. But [01:02:15] because he’s trying to do something else before in the past, he tries to do some smoothies, I guess, make a smoothie with his brother. [01:02:20] Do you know about that?

Payman Langroudi: I remember I met his brother, it’s.

Meghan Chard: A great name. Blends with, blends with benefits. [01:02:25] It’s quite good. And we used to do all the tastings. I know he’s got this entrepreneurial sort of [01:02:30] spirit, so I just thought, let’s just, you know, you know, I encourage it because, you know, I otherwise [01:02:35] he’ll just leave a very he’d lead a very bloody life with me otherwise. So I let him just like fulfil [01:02:40] that sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But, but okay. But so then they started. But I want to get into the [01:02:45] sacrifice that, that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don’t know, every time we bring a new product out, I [01:02:50] feel like the whole year before that, and particularly the final [01:02:55] 2 or 3 months before the product comes out, this massive sacrifice. I mean, there’s [01:03:00] brain time that’s going to it. There’s missing stuff. There’s meetings where you don’t know what the hell [01:03:05] you’re talking about. Yeah. I mean, the hopes and dreams. Agony and ecstasy. Yeah, [01:03:10] that comes with it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So it’s honestly an emotional roller coaster.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you [01:03:15] have some amazing highs, like incredible highs. You also have a lot of lows. Yeah. So it is an emotional [01:03:20] roller coaster. But I’m really proud. So a lot of sacrifice. You know we’ve got three young kids. So he [01:03:25] he tries to be as disciplined as he can. But like on holiday, like you can’t ever switch off. And [01:03:30] we have that with our practice as well. We always you know, it’s hard to switch off anyway. But you have that and [01:03:35] parlour. So we’ll have to do certain things whilst on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Credit you guys with the [01:03:40] reason why we took 80% of the plastic out of our Evo.

Meghan Chard: For what [01:03:45] what from like inspo sort of like from parlour, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but actually it [01:03:50] was you. It was me. Yeah, me. Yeah, it was you. Because we were somewhere and [01:03:55] I said, hey, you’re doing this, environmentally friendly thing, right. And then you said [01:04:00] something like, every time I throw some plastic in the bin, it makes my heart race. [01:04:05] Yeah. And I said, really? And you went, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, kids, I’ve got kids. [01:04:10] And. And when I saw I saw that up to that point, I was thinking, oh, these guys are jumping on some [01:04:15] green bandwagon. Yeah. You know, at the time I remember like green became an issue. [01:04:20]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There were the pictures of the, the.

Meghan Chard: The turtle and the straws and yeah. But it just kills [01:04:25] me.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s emotive. It is emotive. But but I’d seen the picture of the turtle as well. But [01:04:30] then when you you said you really feel it and, and you weren’t, you know, messing around like you [01:04:35] meant it. Yeah. And I saw that and I went, oh, shit. It’s real. Like, this is real. And then [01:04:40] we were doing the next version of evolution and we said, look, let’s take as much plastic out of it as [01:04:45] possible.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. That’s great.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s good. Well, you know, no, I mean, I try and be as eco [01:04:50] friendly as possible at home. Yeah. Genuinely, you know, have compostable cloths, you know, like just yeah, just, [01:04:55] you know, like I buy bars of soap and, you know, cardboard, like don’t buy plastic hand soaps and, you know, just [01:05:00] try, you just try what you can, you know, that’s all you can do, really.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of this [01:05:05] pod.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes, clinical mistakes. But I kind [01:05:10] of want to. Before we do, I want to hear about what would you class as your darkest day from [01:05:15] the professional perspective in this ten year, ten years, eight years, eight years. [01:05:20] When did you.

Meghan Chard: Call it holding a practice or qualifying for 14 years. Oh, really? [01:05:25] Uh, yeah. 14 years.

Payman Langroudi: Old enough. Thank you. So, [01:05:30] yeah.

Meghan Chard: So there’s lotions and potions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Toothpaste.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when [01:05:35] when I, when I say that what the darkest days in this journey.

Meghan Chard: Um, I mean, Covid [01:05:40] is pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s pretty dark.

Payman Langroudi: So after you bought the place, right.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:45]

Meghan Chard: That was two years. So you still trying to find your feet? And [01:05:50] I mean the stress of that. I mean, that was quite, you know, before you knew everything, you know, once you got into the swing of [01:05:55] things, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But once the word furlough came.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And like we were like, honestly, you know. Well, yeah, exactly. [01:06:00] Before furlough though. So I remember in March, we actually closed. We actually closed, decided to close the practice before [01:06:05] we were even told to close the practice because all the staff were panicking. Yeah. And we were like, we’re gonna [01:06:10] close the practice. I remember me and sign looking at our bank account being like, okay, right. How many months can we pay the staff [01:06:15] for? Like, like, how much have we got in the bank to pay the staff? And, and we were like, we’re [01:06:20] crying because we’re like, okay, we can only do a couple of months, really only two years into owning a practice. And we’re [01:06:25] like, and then you’re also like, and how, how are we going to survive? Like, what are we going to do? And, you know, furlough [01:06:30] hadn’t even been mentioned at that point. And you were thinking, oh my God. So that was really like, I remember we was [01:06:35] crying. We were just non-stop crying at that, like that day. That was.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. We had all our team up here and [01:06:40] we said, we’ve got two choices. We lose half of you or everyone takes pay cut. [01:06:45] Yeah. And they said, oh, everyone take a pay cut.

Meghan Chard: Oh that’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know it was that was that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. It [01:06:50] was really bad. And then furlough fellow came in and you’re like, oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: You guys had NHS income or you weren’t even sure.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, we did have [01:06:55] NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t.

Meghan Chard: Sure about. No, we didn’t know about that until later.

Payman Langroudi: Income at.

Meghan Chard: That point. No, no, [01:07:00] that’s what I mean. We didn’t um you know it was fine in the end. But [01:07:05] before you knew about all that, it was totally not fine. And then there was the threat of us going to the Nightingale. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh of course.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. We were like having to go to the we were having all these emails saying, you’re gonna have to go in. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Such a crazy.

Meghan Chard: Time. And we were like, oh my God, we’re gonna die. Even though we wouldn’t have died because it’s Covid, it’s like, [01:07:20] you know, we’re fit and healthy. It’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: But I remember I bought these FFP, whatever, three. I remember [01:07:25] that. Yeah, I bought these.

Meghan Chard: And the fit testing and all that.

Payman Langroudi: I bought these ten masks, ten [01:07:30] for £160, £16 each.

Meghan Chard: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. Yeah. [01:07:35] To give to my brother who’s a doctor. Um just to, to wear in, in hospital. [01:07:40] Yeah. He went in with one and they told him he’s not allowed to wear it because [01:07:45] everyone else hasn’t got one. And then I think it was like [01:07:50] six days later, six days later, he wasn’t allowed not to wear it.

Meghan Chard: It was.

Payman Langroudi: A complete [01:07:55] it.

Meghan Chard: Was a it was a shit show.

Payman Langroudi: But the nice thing about Covid is that that massive [01:08:00] peak after Covid.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: None of us really expected. Yeah. Was extraordinary. [01:08:05] And so when you think back to Covid, you always had that feeling as well. The nice feeling.

Meghan Chard: So sunny [01:08:10] as.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Yeah. Yeah yeah. That’s right.

Meghan Chard: Like the garden. Uh, no, but that was like, that was like one of the, that was the darkest [01:08:15] day. And then I mean, I mean, there’s been lots of ups and downs. Um, I mean, [01:08:20] you know, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: What we like at Dental school. Did you, did you find it easy or did you find it [01:08:25] hard?

Meghan Chard: You know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Who finds it easy.

Meghan Chard: I know I find it quite hard, [01:08:30] but I was like I came from I went to a state school. So [01:08:35] I had this sort of had this sort of chip on my shoulder, to be honest with you, that like.

Payman Langroudi: An inferiority.

Meghan Chard: Complex. Yeah. [01:08:40] And I remember the first week my sister was a lawyer and she worked in bank across the road from London [01:08:45] Bridge. So I remember after the first week there was this panic. Everyone went to the library and were getting all these books out [01:08:50] and I was like, oh, I don’t know what book to get. So I literally went to the library and I got like, honestly, the worst. I don’t even know [01:08:55] what books I got, but they were like thick, thick, heavy anatomy textbooks. And I put in my bag. The [01:09:00] bag was like carrying basically a bag of bricks. And I remember panicking. And I remember like, [01:09:05] after the first week, I went and met my sister for a drink. And I remember I just sobbed and cried and I was like, I’m [01:09:10] not clever enough to be here. I’m not good enough to be here. It’s quite teary. I was like, I’m not. I’m not [01:09:15] clever enough to be here. Shouldn’t be here. Because like, I was just so not used to like all these, all this confidence [01:09:20] and like, you know, when you go to a state school and everyone else has went to private [01:09:25] school, you do have this inferiority complex, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve heard that before [01:09:30] from people.

Meghan Chard: So yeah, it’s like, and I’m not saying, oh, feel good private school, like it’s not like that, but [01:09:35] they have this like.

Payman Langroudi: And then you go out with the poshest guy on the planet. Yeah, exactly.

Meghan Chard: And he goes the [01:09:40] roughest girl on the, you know, you know, the, you know, the Irish, Mancunian and [01:09:45] and um but you know, so I, but it was good in some ways because it really pushed [01:09:50] me to work hard. Yeah. And you know, I, I actually graduated second in the year [01:09:55] in the end. Um, so I was really proud of myself that way. But again, like always, like I always [01:10:00] after every exam, I thought I failed it, every exam, I was crying, I failed, I failed it and didn’t fail. I got like, you [01:10:05] know, like I did really well in it. So it’s just a constant like inferiority thing that I, I’ve had [01:10:10] to kind of develop like just kind of work with and overcome.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s such [01:10:15] an interesting thing because my, my daughter’s about to go to a levels and she’s in this [01:10:20] French school in.

Meghan Chard: French.

Payman Langroudi: School. Yeah. In South Kensington. And by its [01:10:25] very nature, the French people who decide to come to London tend to be like hotshot bankers. [01:10:30] Yeah, yeah. So she’s been surrounded by these rich people throughout school. Yeah. [01:10:35] As I was, as I was. But then now she did an entrance [01:10:40] exam for this school for underprivileged children.

Meghan Chard: Really.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s very unlikely [01:10:45] she’s going to get in.

Meghan Chard: It’s turned around now. It’s flipped, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s very unlikely she’s going to get into that school because [01:10:50] the first four sort of qualifiers she doesn’t qualify for. Yeah. So they’ve said yeah if [01:10:55] you if you have to pay for your school meals, if you do this, if you do that, if you qualify, and then there’s a number [01:11:00] five, which is like, if you’re a complete genius, you know, and there’s like 800 to 1 trying to [01:11:05] get that one. Yeah. And we were having this discussion of, let’s imagine she gets in. Yeah. [01:11:10] It’s a very good school. They send loads of people to Oxford and Cambridge. Let’s imagine she gets in. Should she go or shouldn’t she [01:11:15] go, you know. And my wife was saying, well.

Meghan Chard: Well, because they’re kind of getting any [01:11:20] as in because it could they’re basically prioritising underprivileged over [01:11:25] intelligence.

Payman Langroudi: Well no, no there is they’re all very intelligent.

Meghan Chard: Okay. So there has to be intelligent. [01:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: Should she carry on where she is being surrounded by these super dupers banker’s children? You know, [01:11:35] those are the people who are going to inspire her. Or should she go to a school where everyone around her is underprivileged? [01:11:40] Yeah. And I was saying she’s she’s already done the banker piece. [01:11:45] Let her do the underprivileged piece, you know, to see the someone who’s got whose parents haven’t [01:11:50] been able to give him everything she’s had, who’s managed to be even cleverer than she is. And [01:11:55] but my wife was saying, no, no. Um, you know that 17, 18 is when you [01:12:00] really want to be inspired by the people around you. And for her point, it was I wouldn’t have [01:12:05] started enlightened if I wasn’t surrounded by my buddies who had conglomerates all over the world. You know, there’s this sort of question. [01:12:10] Yeah, yeah. You know, what you’re speaking to is, you know, I lived with one of [01:12:15] my partners and enlighten, you know, the guy had nowhere near the privilege that [01:12:20] I had. And he inspires me. He inspired he was top of our our class. [01:12:25] Yeah. And I was scraping through, you know. Yeah. So it’s an interesting question. [01:12:30]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s difficult because you want to you don’t want to muddy cuddle your child either. Do you want to like, but [01:12:35] then you also want because I think I think um it’s [01:12:40] the connections as well are really important. I think you don’t underestimate who you know, and the [01:12:45] connections and not necessarily they give you a leg up, but like, it’s just, it’s important to say inspiration [01:12:50] or aspiration. I think, um, yeah, I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:55] did you get over the, let’s call it inferiority complex by coming top of your class?

Meghan Chard: Like, yeah, [01:13:00] I think I think fix.

Payman Langroudi: It for you.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I think that, yeah. But funny enough, I won an award. So [01:13:05] they kind of give you awards, you know, once you’ve graduated, whatever. And I didn’t check [01:13:10] what the award was for. I just kind of was like, um, so I didn’t know I came second in the year by the way. Oh, [01:13:15] I see, um, I just knew I graduated with honours, whatever it was. So I didn’t know I came second [01:13:20] in the year and I received the Saunders Award and I was like, oh great. Yeah. And [01:13:25] um, it was only when I was like, what was the award for? I was like, oh, I don’t know. He like rang up for me and [01:13:30] was like, what’s the Saunders Award for? And they’re like, oh, it’s for coming second in the year. And I was like, wow, I like, you [01:13:35] know, I did not even know that. So yeah, I think that that really helped.

Payman Langroudi: Not a joke in King’s coming second. [01:13:40]

Meghan Chard: Well, well, hold on to it until I’m like. I’ve done nothing since then, but I’ve got to hold on to that [01:13:45] till I’m like, on my deathbed, you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit mad, though, that your aunt was president of Ireland [01:13:50] and you still had an inferiority complex. Is it crazy? Um, I get I get it. [01:13:55] Yeah. So your aunt could be whoever. You still have an inferiority?

Meghan Chard: Exactly. Auntie. My auntie. Like [01:14:00] I’m incredibly proud of her. Like, from where she’s come from, where she is. And what I love about her [01:14:05] now is that, you know, she’s lived in the Arizona, in Ireland, which is basically the white House [01:14:10] is a copy of it, this big, big white House in the middle of Phoenix Park. And I’ve been there like I’ve [01:14:15] stayed there. I took me there when I was dating him. I took him there because he was president for 14 years. [01:14:20] But like, she’s so down to earth. Yeah. And she like EFS and Jeff’s like, [01:14:25] she’s Irish. Obviously it’s like second language, but she EFS and Jeff’s and she’s so down to earth and, um, [01:14:30] you know, she just like would get on the bus with her like pension with her, like bus pass sort of thing. That’s what I [01:14:35] love about her. You know, they’re just like, um, yeah. Um, just genuine people.

Payman Langroudi: I encourage anyone to listen [01:14:40] to that interview that I listened to the first time I listened to, properly listened to her. I remember her being president, [01:14:45] but the first time I probably listened to it was it was a leading interview [01:14:50] with, uh, Rory, um, and Alastair, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart. Brilliant, [01:14:55] brilliant.

Meghan Chard: She’s got some amazing stories. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So brilliant.

Meghan Chard: She was like friends, [01:15:00] not friends. Okay, let me take that back. We tried that. She wasn’t friends with Gaddafi, but [01:15:05] she’s met Gaddafi and she’s gone to stay with, um um Nelson Mandela [01:15:10] in his like villa in like Zimbabwe. She’s been there. Like the story she can tell you are unbelievable. [01:15:15] You know, when the new pope was ordained, is the Pope ordained? I don’t know, um she’s [01:15:20] Ireland, right. And that every um country’s leader was there and it’s alphabetical [01:15:25] order. So she’s Ireland. Right. And she was in between Iran and Israel. So [01:15:30] she had to be like the peacekeeper between these two people So I’m like, oh my God, [01:15:35] the stories are unreal. I bet she has got some stories. Yeah, it’s really, really funny.

Payman Langroudi: What insight have [01:15:40] you got about public life from, you know, being a being close to her?

Meghan Chard: Um. [01:15:45] What insight? She’s the queen. The queen came, you know, [01:15:50] she’s the queen around. And like.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, surely the privacy question, I mean, that must be an [01:15:55] issue, right?

Meghan Chard: I think she’s like, I think it’s I think I think being the president of Ireland [01:16:00] is quite chilled. I think people aren’t trying out to get you. I think I think everyone likes the idea. Everyone likes [01:16:05] the Irish don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah that’s true.

Meghan Chard: I don’t know about the security side of things now. Um, [01:16:10] no, I don’t think like my cousins, they don’t have any security.

Payman Langroudi: Perfectly normal.

Meghan Chard: Oh, [01:16:15] they’re so down to earth like. Like they are like absolute jokes. Like you would not know this. They’re [01:16:20] like so clever, but like, they’re so again, effing and jeffing like it’s [01:16:25] yeah, they’re so they’re lovely. They’re really down to earth, lovely people actually. Let’s get.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:16:30] to the clinical errors.

Meghan Chard: Clinical errors.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say, you know, from that sort [01:16:35] of black box thinking, we want to learn from each other’s clinical errors rather than in medical. [01:16:40] We tend to hide our errors because blame is such a big thing. Um, whereas if [01:16:45] we could all learn from each other’s errors, then yeah, that would help everyone. What comes to mind when I say [01:16:50] that?

Meghan Chard: Um, I mean, there’s like, there’s like the safe error [01:16:55] that I could tell, you know, that there’s a safe, there’s a safe bet that I could tell you.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, kind of, I’ll probably reject that one. And then [01:17:00] we’ll have to get to the dangerous one. But go on.

Meghan Chard: Um.

Payman Langroudi: So now that you’ve put [01:17:05] it out there, I know, I know.

Meghan Chard: Um no, well it’s not even safe, but basically it [01:17:10] was really embarrassing, to be honest with you. But you know, those CCD X-ray images, [01:17:15] CCD, right? So, you know, the sensors with the with the with the wires.

Payman Langroudi: The wires back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:20]

Meghan Chard: We had some of those at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: And it’s really embarrassing. But basically, I mean, you might say it’s lame. [01:17:25] But anyway, I had one patient and I was taking some X-rays on her. And normally the way my surgery was [01:17:30] positioned, I’d put the X-rays in sort of behind that kind of to the side of the patients behind the [01:17:35] patient, so that the wire was in front of me. So but on this one occasion, I [01:17:40] was like, in front of the wall, I was on the side of the wire. Right. So I put the, the, [01:17:45] the right wing in and taking a bite wing X-ray and I step over the wire, but I trip over [01:17:50] the wire.

Payman Langroudi: Tug rips the thing out of his. Does he, does he get [01:17:55] hurt?

Meghan Chard: And thank God there’s no teeth or anything. But the patient’s like are obviously in agony [01:18:00] and I’m like mortified. Um, and I was like, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. [01:18:05] And then obviously I, like sent some flowers and I just but like, it was a lady. She was so nice. I [01:18:10] wrote her a letter. I said, I’m so sorry. Like I’ve learned from it. I’m now will never do that. I’ll [01:18:15] always make sure I step this side. And she was fine. She came back and saw me as a patient, so [01:18:20] it was okay. But that was like really quite mortifying at the time.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one, but I don’t I’m not [01:18:25] gonna accept it for two reasons. Number one.

Meghan Chard: I know I don’t do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: Number one. Number one. There’s [01:18:30] nothing you could have done about that. Yeah. You know that you tripped. Yeah. Okay. You could say you had a good, good [01:18:35] relationship with her. And people who like us don’t see us. Not that she’s going to sue you for tripping. Um, [01:18:40] but number two, it was a happy ending. Yeah. I’m [01:18:45] looking for a more unhappy ending from a situation that you could have had more [01:18:50] effect on.

Meghan Chard: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I’m trying to tell me something. Something [01:18:55] around it happened in your practice. It doesn’t have to be your own error. Tell me something about [01:19:00] maybe a treatment modality that you thought was great. I used to put stick veneers on everyone’s teeth, and then [01:19:05] for six years down the line, it didn’t look so good. Like something like that. Or if you’ve [01:19:10] got it in your head, the dangerous one. Just tell them. Tell me, and then we’ll cut it out.

Meghan Chard: So. [01:19:15] Well, I mean, there’s one that keeps jumping to my mind and it’s really annoying because I’m like trying to [01:19:20] suppress it and like, forget about it. Yeah, yeah. But I’m like a really honest person. So if you ask me [01:19:25] something, I can’t lie.

Payman Langroudi: Basically, I love that too.

Meghan Chard: But you know what? Like, I’ve [01:19:30] listened to some other podcasts and I think some people have been really open about it. So I think, you know what, the whole point of the question, [01:19:35] whatever. It’s fine. And yeah, it’s quite a sad ending, to be honest with you. So it’s not really [01:19:40] it’s not light-hearted or anything, but basically I had this patient who was lovely. I’d seen her [01:19:45] for a couple of years and she was a teacher and she was about to retire. And, [01:19:50] um, she had this really niggly tooth, a lower right six, uh, [01:19:55] had a furcation involvement. She had a little bit of perio ongoing, so she’d see the hygienist regularly. [01:20:00] And this lower right six had a root treated as well. And [01:20:05] she was getting like aching and pain a little bit around there and a little bit of swelling around the gum. And [01:20:10] it was ongoing for like probably a year or so. And like, you know, I kept trying to clean it and like, give it some, give [01:20:15] her some antibiotics didn’t really seem to settle, but I just didn’t think anything of it because it just because I had [01:20:20] a root canal treatment in it and it had furcation and a bit of perio. I just thought this was like an inflammatory situation. [01:20:25] Um. Oh my God, I’m feeling quite serious now actually. Um, and then [01:20:30] she went away and then it bulged [01:20:35] it like fungating essentially. Yeah. And um, and essentially, [01:20:40] uh, she came back and it was a squamous cell carcinoma. And um, basically [01:20:45] even at that, even at that point, it kind of gave it a little bit, but I still was [01:20:50] so like, sure of my, so I’ve seen squamous cell carcinomas before and I’ve referred [01:20:55] before, like white patches under the tongue and things like that.

Meghan Chard: But this was like just really threw me because, [01:21:00] because it was treated and it had furcation and a bit of perio just thought it was inflammatory. [01:21:05] So even then, I still didn’t think it was like, like cancer, the [01:21:10] big C and, um, one of my colleagues like, no, it definitely is an urgent referral. And anyway, um, [01:21:15] I felt really bad because she’d like built like she trusted me in what I, what I thought it was, I thought it was just [01:21:20] like a infection. And anyway, it turned out to be squamous cell carcinoma. And like her husband [01:21:25] basically sent me a really like. Like a really angry letter. Understandably, because she’s about to retire this person. [01:21:30] Um, and he sent me a really angry letter being like, you know, he basically thought [01:21:35] I was like incompetent essentially because I was quite young, young dentist. Um, and, you [01:21:40] know, I was like, so I literally when I found out I was like the worst day because I literally, I [01:21:45] literally, I thought I’d killed this person and, you know, like, I don’t know what [01:21:50] happened to her. In the end, she went and got her jewellery, but I never knew what happened to her. Um, but [01:21:55] I remember just crying because I felt so guilty, um, that I’d, like, missed [01:22:00] this thing. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easy to, it’s easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: And.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:22:05] easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: But, you know, anyway, I wrote him a letter being like, I’ve literally, I’ve [01:22:10] literally got a letter from another patient saying I’ve saved his life because I’ve referred so early. I caught something so [01:22:15] early and I’m. And I’m and I, and I rate myself an oral medicine. I’m quite like Simon always gets me in for [01:22:20] oral med. Format. Quite good with oral med.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s easy to miss. It’s easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: There’s no doubt about that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:22:25] there’s no doubt about that. And what a brilliant one to bring up. Yeah, because that is important, [01:22:30] isn’t it? That and the way you talk about it is very, very clear. As soon as you said endo and [01:22:35] you said perio, what’s going off in my head is perio endo perio endo lesion. [01:22:40] Not for a second did I consider you were going to say this. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, [01:22:45] but but the letter. Yeah. I stopped practising 14 [01:22:50] years ago or something and still a letter where someone sort of questioned my [01:22:55] intent.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Still sticks with me. And it was, it was nothing like this, [01:23:00] but that, that question of, you know.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. It’s your intent.

Payman Langroudi: Your intent is completely [01:23:05] there.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easy to miss. And yet a patient thinks that and that can hurt. [01:23:10]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I mean, I wrote him a letter back and nothing ever happened from it. And, you know, um, [01:23:15] and I obviously said sorry, but I didn’t I said like, you know, she was a non-smoker. She didn’t drink alcohol. [01:23:20] She was none of the risk factors. But yeah, anyway, that was like, that was like [01:23:25] the darkest clinical day for me. Um, and then, you know, since then I’ve referred patients [01:23:30] where the teeth have like lost bone and like, I’m like, oh my God, that’s definitely cancer. And it’s like, no, it’s just perio, [01:23:35] you know, anyway, you know, but yeah, I got caught out at that time and um, yeah, really, really [01:23:40] sad story really.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re really brave to share that I really do and well [01:23:45] done for doing it because honestly, honestly, that you sharing that can save another life. You [01:23:50] know, 10,000 people are going to listen to this. Yeah, 10,000 dentists are going to listen to this. And [01:23:55] all of them are now going to be looking out a little bit more. Yeah. For that. And you [01:24:00] know, it’s weird that we learn from our own mistakes. You know, next time you’re going to think [01:24:05] about that thing more. But we can learn from each other, right? Yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s it. You know, you know, like if [01:24:10] you read that, um, that book black box thinking where like actually pilots share [01:24:15] all their errors.

Payman Langroudi: This is about that.

Meghan Chard: You know, they share all their errors and actually, like medical professionals are [01:24:20] so scared to like be sued or be blamed that they have to like, not hide them, but they won’t share them with other people [01:24:25] because, you know, they’re embarrassed or ashamed about.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’s a really famous one, isn’t it, about [01:24:30] the big, uh, plane crash where the junior guy could tell [01:24:35] that what the captain was saying was going to cause a crash, but he was junior and [01:24:40] the captain was very senior. And the learning from that was that if you’re a junior, you have [01:24:45] to say it. If you think you know, the captain said. Right. Engines full ahead. Yeah. And he kind of went, are [01:24:50] you sure? And then he just shut up. And that was recorded. And the flight recorder was it. And then they spread that [01:24:55] around the whole pilot community. Yeah. That doesn’t matter how junior you are. You know.

Meghan Chard: You’ve got a concern.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like [01:25:00] safeguarding. Yeah. It doesn’t matter how small. Yeah. How little. You think it might [01:25:05] be a problem. Bring it up. Yeah. You won’t get in trouble. Basically. You know, that. That sort.

Meghan Chard: Of thing. I think it’s [01:25:10] so important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Super important that we talk about these things super important and [01:25:15] you know, the way you feel is totally normal and missing it is totally normal. Let’s [01:25:20] face it. You know, we mustn’t punish ourselves about missing something like that in [01:25:25] that situation. No, thanks for doing that. So going [01:25:30] forward, I bet Simon’s got a plan to open 100 of these practices. [01:25:35]

Meghan Chard: Going, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Meghan Chard: Well, strap yourself into [01:25:40] the rocket.

Payman Langroudi: Has that be the question?

Meghan Chard: Yeah I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to get a second one.

Meghan Chard: I think we will. [01:25:45] Yeah. I think we’re just you know like our youngest is not even two. It’s one. You know I think we’re just trying to. But [01:25:50] yeah, I think it’s definitely something we want, we want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and 20 like, [01:25:55] is that the way I bet he’s thinking like that.

Meghan Chard: Probably, you know, it’s like, I mean, one at a time [01:26:00] to be fair.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s not though, is it? I mean, you could go for private equity. You could, you know, you could. [01:26:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I mean, it’s the thing is one year to the next so [01:26:10] much changes. Yeah. So you know we’ll see.

Payman Langroudi: But your operations you’re working on today?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:26:15] I’m like, how much, you know? Um, but yeah, I think so. I think so like, like definitely in the future, [01:26:20] nothing immediate, but yeah, definitely. I think in the future, I think I would aspire to have more.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:26:25] you’re Catholic.

Meghan Chard: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Meghan Chard: You’ve [01:26:30] got a few times on your podcast haven’t you? Do I believe in God? Um, not [01:26:35] as like a not like I believe in something. I believe in a higher power, I think, but [01:26:40] I don’t believe like in a man made religion that makes sense. Like I believe in [01:26:45] like a collective, like a collective kind of like.

Payman Langroudi: Oneness of humanity [01:26:50] and everything.

Meghan Chard: And like connected to everything, like nature and the universe and energy and like, you know, we’re [01:26:55] made of stardust.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Like there’s more. I, I believe in something. [01:27:00] I’m not an atheist. Um, and so I just think there’s so much we don’t even know. Like I can [01:27:05] sense when someone comes in and there’s something not right. I can sense that. I mean, it’s proven there’s like neuro [01:27:10] you’ve got like a sort of force field around you and your energy is sort of mixed. And there’s some [01:27:15] people that your energies really combine with and some that you don’t. Like the what is that about? Like it’s [01:27:20] got to be something bigger.

Payman Langroudi: But then but were you brought up as a Catholic.

Meghan Chard: A Catholic, and went to church until [01:27:25] I was 18 every.

Payman Langroudi: Sunday. Do you remember a moment when you sort of thought, screw this? Like, I’m [01:27:30] not going to go into I’m not going to go after organised religion?

Meghan Chard: Probably not.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:27:35] not that late.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I [01:27:40] mean, my parents, my mom especially has very strong faith. She prays like every day.

Payman Langroudi: My wife does.

Meghan Chard: Um, [01:27:45] and I love that. And I think I’m a bit jealous, really, that she’s, like, so strong in her faith. Um. For [01:27:50] me, um. Yeah, I went to church until I was 18, mainly because I had to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:55]

Meghan Chard: I was forced by my parents, um. And Easter. [01:28:00] Oh my God. Thank God when I got to uni, the Easter celebrations, I didn’t have to do any more because there’s so [01:28:05] many church ceremonies. There’s like Good Friday is about three hours long. Then there’s like Easter [01:28:10] Saturday, Easter Vigil, then there’s Easter Sunday. Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: So I [01:28:15] went to a Catholic school for three years.

Meghan Chard: They really know how to.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Meghan Chard: Really long things out, don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:20] long ceremonies as well.

Meghan Chard: Oh, you know, I just think, you know, the.

Payman Langroudi: Buttons up a little bit. Buttoned [01:28:25] up, you know, like. Yeah, it’s not fun.

Meghan Chard: Chanting and chanting and up and down. It’s about chanting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not supposed to be fun.

Meghan Chard: You don’t [01:28:30] need to change it up a little bit. Yeah. But I do believe I do think we’re missing. I do think religion and [01:28:35] community is what we’re missing in today’s society. I think a lot of young people are lost now because there’s no sense of [01:28:40] community, and it’s all very much about themselves. And what do I want and what do I need, which I think that was that’s our issue. I [01:28:45] think, you know, decades ago is very much like the community, you know, the bigger [01:28:50] picture. So I think that’s what we’re missing now. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re kind of alluding to what used to go to [01:28:55] church on a Sunday. Yeah. And you’d meet your your community there. Yeah. And there [01:29:00] was a warmth and a society there. Yeah. That people haven’t got now, which is true. Like, [01:29:05] I don’t really know my next door neighbours. Really?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s really sad, isn’t it? Everyone keeps [01:29:10] themselves now and then. Then we’ve got like, loads of loneliness as well. So I think we’re missing [01:29:15] something there. Um. But am I religious? Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not.

Meghan Chard: Spiritual. [01:29:20] You know what I mean? I feel like energies, but then.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, but you know how it’s, it’s kind [01:29:25] of helpful to be religious sometimes, right? When someone passes away. Yeah. You [01:29:30] feel like.

Meghan Chard: It helps you to process death and what it means and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you know, there’s lovely things like going to a better [01:29:35] place or looking down on me or all of these things. Do you still have those sort of feelings [01:29:40] or have you become like me where I think, oh, when someone dies, they’re dead? And that’s a [01:29:45] terrible thing, right? Because.

Meghan Chard: No, I do believe in ghosts. I do believe in spirits. Spirits?

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in karma?

Meghan Chard: Um. [01:29:50] Kind of. Yeah. Well, I kind of believe that, you know, because [01:29:55] I know I just listened to a podcast for you saying like, is it selfish? You know, like you’re being nice, [01:30:00] you have good energy back. But I just think it’s more harmony, you know? So I think, yeah, I do kind of do [01:30:05] believe in karma. And I think like you kind of get what you give. And I think if you’re not always, obviously, because [01:30:10] sometimes life is unfair and things happen that you have no control over. Um, and [01:30:15] I don’t necessarily believe in fate. Sometimes I don’t know, I don’t know how I believe in fate because, you know, I just think the children and, you [01:30:20] know, Gaza, like that’s not their fate. I don’t know, but I, um, [01:30:25] I, yeah, I kind of deal in good energy. I believe in good energy and bad energy. And I think if you’ve [01:30:30] got bad, bad energy, it’ll come around in a different way because of what you put out to the world. If you’re like positive [01:30:35] and you’re kind.

Payman Langroudi: Practically, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Then, you know, if you’re smiling at someone, yeah, they’re gonna smile [01:30:40] back to you. It’s that kind of thing. If you’re, if you’re growling at someone, you know, that’s it’s that kind of reciprocation. [01:30:45] I think. So, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I do see you talking about the future. [01:30:50] You and Simon sort of carried on the practice from his parents. Do you feel like you [01:30:55] guys are kind of looking to pass whatever businesses you [01:31:00] do onto your kid? Do you think of it that way, or would you like if someone came along and said, here’s [01:31:05] 20 million, you’re going to leave? Because I don’t know if you listen to the episode with Anushka. No. Dental [01:31:10] she’s she’s on 43 practices now.

Meghan Chard: 43 wow.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:31:15] and three kids.

Meghan Chard: That’s what I mean. I’m like, how, how do you go from. That’s what I mean. It’s like, it can’t be. I, [01:31:20] I can’t imagine it, but I’m like 1 to 2 must be the biggest step.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 1 to 2 is huge.

Meghan Chard: Because [01:31:25] then I’m like, how do people I meet people all the time and they’re like, yeah, I’ve got three, I’ve got five. And I’m like, what? [01:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: But I’m, I’m constantly telling people not to go from 1 to 2 until they’ve squeezed everything [01:31:35] out. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, even if you want to own two or 3 or 4, you should be sweating [01:31:40] those assets. You know, if if your practice isn’t open seven days a week, then what you’re [01:31:45] doing going from 1 to 2. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Keep one away. Yeah. And late hours and all that. Yeah. I [01:31:50] know it’s hard. I know it’s hard. I’m talking like I own a practice.

Meghan Chard: I know, I know, I know, yeah. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you know sometimes I go to places right. There’s plenty of space for redevelopment. Like you added those rooms and [01:32:00] they’re talking about the second practice and there’s a vanity.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, there is an ego and ego. [01:32:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So so so how do you think about succession?

Meghan Chard: Do you know my [01:32:10] kids are, you know, very young, you know, so we’re not we’re not you know, what if they were a bit older? I mean, they’ve they’ve said they wanted [01:32:15] to be a dentist, you know, but, you know, they but also, like my middle one said, he wants to be a T rex when [01:32:20] he’s older. So you’ve got to take that with a pinch of salt. Um but you know our second [01:32:25] he lines things up. He’s very everything’s, you know, I think he’d be a very good cosmetic dentist. Um, [01:32:30] but no, there’s no pressure. But if they wanted it to be then. Yeah. Um yeah. I mean, [01:32:35] but they’re so far away from that actually being a genuine like question that like, it’s [01:32:40] not really something we need to think about right now.

Payman Langroudi: The weird thing is though, yeah, that often they don’t know what they want. [01:32:45] I mean, my son did, but my daughter didn’t at all.

Meghan Chard: Well, why would you like [01:32:50] 16 to 18? I think it’s reasonable. Like you should almost do it how the Americans do it, to be honest. It’s like do [01:32:55] an undergrad, see what you like. But you know.

Payman Langroudi: How did you end up in dentistry? Was it your uncle? [01:33:00]

Meghan Chard: Well, indirectly. So. You know, we lived in Manchester a [01:33:05] lot, and. And between Ireland and Manchester. But like. I didn’t see my Uncle Martin that much. Like we only [01:33:10] saw him occasionally. So he didn’t have like a direct, a direct influence, but it was more. I knew that he was [01:33:15] a dentist and to be honest, we went to visit his house in Ireland. They were even there. They were [01:33:20] off because like Mary obviously had a big political career before she became a the president. We [01:33:25] went to their house and had a big harp in the hallway.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Mary’s husband? Who’s the dentist?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:33:30] Oh I see. Yeah. Okay. And, um, we went to the house, an amazing harp in their hallway and, like [01:33:35] a beautiful house. And, like, you need to put two and two together, you’re like. Mm. You kind of just work things [01:33:40] out a little bit. Like, you know, we didn’t have a half in our house. There was no space [01:33:45] for half in our house. But so, you know, um, I think, yeah, I think, um, [01:33:50] and then I always like, you know, I always had, like, I know it sounds lame, but I always had a good experience going [01:33:55] to the dentist as a child. I never had braces as a child. So I was quite fortunate that way that my teeth were quite aligned [01:34:00] and.

Payman Langroudi: There are loads of people become a dentist because they love their orthodontists.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Really? [01:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you spend so much time there. Yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. Weird. And then do you know what I, I never [01:34:10] even thought I could do it because I was always a bit like average in the class. I was never like, you know, I was like just in the middle and [01:34:15] um, for my GCSEs, I did really well. And like, that was the first time I was like, oh [01:34:20] my God, I actually could do, I actually can do this. So, um, and then [01:34:25] just, you know, you kind of think, oh, and actually I was told in my careers by the careers person at college that I couldn’t do dentistry [01:34:30] because I didn’t have the right subjects. So I did biology, chemistry and performing [01:34:35] arts because I really, I at least love acting and singing and dancing. And I did that as an A-level. [01:34:40] And then they said I wouldn’t be able to do it. And I thought, I’ll try [01:34:45] anyway. And actually it is a perfect, it’s a perfect actual, um, compliment [01:34:50] because it’s communication and it’s like kind of showing up and being a persona and making a patient [01:34:55] feel welcome. And so actually, yeah. Anyway, I got in the Kings obviously felt it was [01:35:00] suitable and I got in. But yeah, so I just kind of jumped the hoops and that’s kind of, you know how I got in really. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: I know this is really hard to imagine for you now. Yeah. But just for the sake of the argument, [01:35:10] let’s say you had a day off from everyone, including [01:35:15] Simon. What would you do?

Meghan Chard: A day off.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:35:20] no one, nowhere to report. Do whatever the hell you want.

Meghan Chard: Okay, [01:35:25] so I’d get up in the morning, I’d do some exercise. I’d probably go in the [01:35:30] sauna. I’d go for a walk. Actually, in a forest.

Payman Langroudi: By yourself?

Meghan Chard: By myself?

Payman Langroudi: Bathe [01:35:35] in the forest.

Meghan Chard: No music? No. Yeah. No podcast. Just like. Yeah, just [01:35:40] like the nature kind of, you know, that’s what I would do because I feel like I never go walking in a forest because [01:35:45] when I’m carrying a million kids and they want snacks and they want to be picked up and they want, you know, so [01:35:50] I just love to go to a forest. Um, what else I do me like a massage or a facial or something, you [01:35:55] know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then friends or.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Dinners or I don’t know, drinks or like.

Meghan Chard: I mean, I mean, [01:36:05] you know, I can keep going, can I? Lovely. Okay. I thought I’m going to pick up the kids right now. So [01:36:10] I’m not picking up the kids today. Um, yeah. Then I go for like a nice boozy lunch with some friends and [01:36:15] dance in the kitchen, basically. Probably.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite place in the world? You’ve been in so many places. What’s your favourite place [01:36:20] in the world?

Meghan Chard: Oh, favourite place in the world? Um, I really like Cape Town.

Prav Solanki: I [01:36:25] love Cape Town.

Meghan Chard: It’s like got a magnetism.

Prav Solanki: I love.

Meghan Chard: The mountains, I love it.

Prav Solanki: It’s got it [01:36:30] all.

Meghan Chard: It’s got it all. Love, love.

Payman Langroudi: Mum from there.

Meghan Chard: She’s not, she’s from [01:36:35] Joburg.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Um so Cape Town I really [01:36:40] love I mean we’ve just come back from the Maldives. That’s just a very special place. Like I just feel so [01:36:45] switched off there. Um, that’s probably like the favourite. Yeah. Favourite places basically. [01:36:50] Um, is that a bit boring I don’t know. How about you. What’s your favourite place?

Payman Langroudi: I like, I like Cape Town a lot. Yeah, [01:36:55] I like Thailand.

Meghan Chard: Thailand.

Payman Langroudi: I like the food. I like the people. And you know, there’s enough. Enough. [01:37:00] Germans and Dutch guys have gone to Thailand to find themselves a bride. And those guys, when they build [01:37:05] villas, they don’t mess around. Yeah. You know, like they build these amazing villas. You [01:37:10] get, like, amazing.

Meghan Chard: Would you go to a villa if you went there? Would you go to a hotel?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:37:15] do, yeah, I prefer Airbnb to hotels.

Meghan Chard: You know, I’ve got three young kids, so I’ve tried. We [01:37:20] tried that in October. We went and did an Airbnb. And then after a few days we were like hotel. [01:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: It depends. It depends. I went to Dental forum. Do you know about that? It’s like [01:37:30] the power room in dentistry. It’s like it’s all the all the corporates and all the suppliers. [01:37:35] Right. And then you do speed dating, right? And for us, it’s a massive deal, right? It sometimes it [01:37:40] takes months to find out the name of the human that you have to focus on to get your product into [01:37:45] some big group. Yeah. Now, now you sit with the CEO of the group, CEO of the next group, CEO of the group. [01:37:50] So it’s a really good thing to go to. Yeah. Um, but, um, why am I, why am I [01:37:55] talking about. Oh, yeah. The last time, last time we went, it was they, they got the venue got messed [01:38:00] up and they had to in a hurry. They had to get another venue and we ended up in the W Hotel [01:38:05] in Barcelona.

Meghan Chard: Oh, nice.

Payman Langroudi: And it totally whipped me up to what [01:38:10] it is to go to a cool hotel. Yeah. You know, because I’ve been I’ve been stopping going to hotels for [01:38:15] the last ten years.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the, as soon as I got my room key, wherever I wanted [01:38:20] to go, some guy would say, show me your key, please. Room key, please. Room key please. I was like, what the hell? Why do they keep [01:38:25] checking my room key, man? And then, uh, the one day later, you [01:38:30] realise, oh, that’s why they’re checking for the room key. Because the benefits of being in the [01:38:35] hotel, like sonar was on during the time we were there and they were having [01:38:40] a massive event in the pool. There was a whole queue. The whole town was there trying to get [01:38:45] in, but your room key would just get you straight into that event, you know? Yeah. You it’s certainly understood [01:38:50] that. Right?

Meghan Chard: I love a nice hotel. Just like. Come on, just relax. I don’t want to cook. I don’t [01:38:55] want to clean. I just want to relax when I’m like on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But in Thailand and in South Africa, they [01:39:00] have cleaners in Airbnbs.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s standard. Like when we were in Cape Town, the guy [01:39:05] didn’t even bother to tell us that every day a cleaner would come. He just took it for granted.

Meghan Chard: Really [01:39:10] love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Meghan Chard: That’s the dream.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. A couple of quick fire questions [01:39:15] for you. Best lecture. What comes to mind or course if you want.

Meghan Chard: Course. [01:39:20] Well, I mean, do you know what like I’ve been, as I said before, I’ve been hiding under a rock for the last [01:39:25] eight years, you know, so clinical hasn’t been my priority. And part of me has been like, I can’t [01:39:30] what’s the point in spending money and doing a course and doing this? Because I’m literally on maternity leave and I can’t get, [01:39:35] you know, but I actually went on a really interesting, um, I attended a lecture, an interesting [01:39:40] lecture in September, a guy called Malcolm Levin kind, I think he’s a paediatric dentist. [01:39:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: He is. Do you know him?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Fascinating. Basically, the connection between children’s [01:39:50] teeth and their posture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Meghan Chard: Fascinating. And he basically analyses [01:39:55] the child, and he has these mirrors around him and a mirror on the top. And the child has to, like, [01:40:00] stand. And so you see from all angles the child’s posture and, you know, this is linking [01:40:05] it back to airways. But a child who’s got an airway issue hyperextends their neck forward. And that’s the body’s [01:40:10] way of trying to open up the airways. So quite often you’ll see these children like this. And when he corrects the bite [01:40:15] and corrects the airways, the child’s posture just naturally is more straight. Mhm. [01:40:20] What blew my mind was this one child who was sucking her thumb and sucking her thumb [01:40:25] to the side. You know, you can obviously suck your thumb in different ways. She was sucking her thumb to the side, and [01:40:30] when he got her, when he took a photo of her, just her natural [01:40:35] pose was like one leg was slightly bent and she was kind of to one side. Right? And [01:40:40] he took a photo. Then when she put her thumb in her body, Uprighted. And [01:40:45] I found that. I found that mad. I was like, so her body is doing what? The body [01:40:50] is so clever. The body knows that. Like for some reason, by putting the thumb in there, it [01:40:55] kind of aligns her body to open up the airways and, you know, make her straight. And then when you take the thumb out again, [01:41:00] the kind of postures back and everything’s all it was just blew my mind. And I think, you [01:41:05] know, we kind of, I think we should be more integrated with osteopaths because. [01:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: We do that thing, don’t they, where they put an appliance in the mouth and then suddenly the power of the arm gets more.

Meghan Chard: It’s [01:41:15] crazy. Yeah. And I think there’s so much, you know, it makes sense. It’s like the airway thing. It makes sense. [01:41:20] Like the teeth. If the bites completely out, then that’s connected to the jaw joint. The jaw joint [01:41:25] is connected to the head and the neck.

Payman Langroudi: The song of the body.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly. It’s like we learnt it when we were six. [01:41:30] The spine was connected to the, you know, it’s like, um. So that just blows my mind. I think that’s [01:41:35] like, that’s what I love about what’s coming up now. I think we’re integrating it all more with the body.

Payman Langroudi: Body connection [01:41:40] has become a huge thing. It’s become a huge thing. And not before time, you know. Yeah. Um, [01:41:45] and like you say, we tend to be behind on these things in the UK a little bit. What about resource? [01:41:50] Like what comes to mind if I say what’s your favourite dental resource?

Meghan Chard: Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is [01:41:55] there a particular account?

Meghan Chard: Um, no. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean like like George dentist. [01:42:00] His accounts are amazing. Yeah. I kind of stay in touch with that end of restorative dentistry [01:42:05] through him.

Meghan Chard: Really?

Payman Langroudi: That bit of it. You know, that sort of.

Meghan Chard: Um, might be him. [01:42:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or is there a book.

Meghan Chard: You know, like I’m kind of on the airway thing now. I find it so fascinating. I found, [01:42:15] um, Shereen Lim. Do you know Shereen Lim? No, she’s Australian dentist. It’s called breathe, [01:42:20] sleep thrive. That was an incredible book. It’s like breath. James Nestor, like [01:42:25] incredible book. But Shereen Lim is like more dental focussed.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: And it goes through everything from like, the [01:42:30] importance of breastfeeding and why breastfeeding is really important and things like that that has like got so many, um, [01:42:35] like really interesting and like, say saved by the mouth by Katie Lee. I love that book, you [01:42:40] know, talks about, you know, like, well, the mouth body connection. So they’re kind of like, I love those books [01:42:45] basically.

Payman Langroudi: Are you on the sort of longevity kick the way Simon is? Is he is he ploughing, ploughing, ploughing drugs down [01:42:50] you every day? Yeah, we’re still.

Meghan Chard: On most nights. Honestly, I’m obsessed with the sauna and cold plunge. Cold [01:42:55] plunge is a bit more six monthly. Like the winter is not really getting that much. You might see that a bit less on the Instagram, but [01:43:00] in the summer. But it’s coming to spring now, so I’m going to have to start getting into it. No, but it is amazing. But you [01:43:05] know, Brian Johnson has said that the sauna is like the number one thing for detoxing your body. Honestly, I’m obsessed. [01:43:10] Every night I feel so good just like sweating it out.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do before [01:43:15] bed?

Meghan Chard: For bed? Yeah, it’s really great. Just like no TV, no phone, nothing like no book. Even [01:43:20] like just being, you know what I mean? No distraction. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just a form of meditation [01:43:25] in itself. Yeah. So how long do you spend in there? What, ten.

Meghan Chard: Minutes. And sometimes me inside, [01:43:30] like so like that’s basically our business like planning as well. Like we basically start our business out when we sauna as well, [01:43:35] but like solving all the business issues during that sauna. So sometimes it goes really quickly [01:43:40] as well, you know. But um, no, I love it. And like it just apparently it’s really good for, for detoxifying against [01:43:45] microplastics in your body.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So I love it. Obsessed. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the [01:43:50] end of our time.

Meghan Chard: Oh, it’s been so much fun. So quick. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Final questions. Fantasy [01:43:55] dinner party.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Dead or alive. Who [01:44:00] you got?

Meghan Chard: I find these questions really hard to answer, but yeah. Had a little think about it. [01:44:05] David Attenborough. Right. I just think what a legend.

Payman Langroudi: Like he’s the number [01:44:10] one in the country, man.

Meghan Chard: I mean what I mean what’s going to happen. I mean I don’t even dare dare to think so. Um, [01:44:15] yeah. I mean, he’s been on the screen since I was a child, right. So I would just love to have him there. I think he’d be [01:44:20] a legend. I absolutely love him.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time he’s been invited, is it?

Meghan Chard: Not really.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Number [01:44:25] two, Tara Swart. Oh. Do you know Tara Swart.

Payman Langroudi: Rings a bell.

Meghan Chard: She’s [01:44:30] a neuroscientist and, like a medical trained doctor. She’s been on, um, Stephen [01:44:35] Bartlett’s podcast a few times. Okay. I just think she’s like, so she’s neuroscience, but she’s also quite [01:44:40] spiritual. And I love how she kind of like links the two together. So that should be quite interesting. [01:44:45] And then the third one I found really hard to think about because I was going to go for like, you know, like [01:44:50] Nelson Mandela or someone, you know, someone like that. But yeah, you know, and I’ve gone for something a little bit different. I think Davina [01:44:55] McCall.

Payman Langroudi: I like Davina McCall.

Meghan Chard: She’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I like, I liked it when she was [01:45:00] young and I like her now as well.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, she’s brilliant. And I think, you know, she’s really fun. I think she has a really real [01:45:05] zest for life. She like is really into fitness. I think there’s not many like 50 [01:45:10] year old like, um, kind of who’s your inspiration? Who’s your role model? I think in certain [01:45:15] ways she’s like a role model to me. So like, I think Davina would be quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: She even talks about menopause, which [01:45:20] is like super important.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And she’s like a brain tumour recently and yeah. And I think she actually [01:45:25] got breast cancer as well. Now I know, and, but she’s like so positive and like, she’s into her fitness and she’s [01:45:30] like, just fun. I think. So yeah, I think that would be my three be a bit interesting, a bit of an interesting one. Um, [01:45:35] but yeah, maybe those three.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. What would you have done differently?

Meghan Chard: Well, [01:45:40] career wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Oh, no. Okay. Um, what [01:45:45] would I have done differently? I think, you know, I always wanted to, to, [01:45:50] to, to work in Australia for a few years. I really wanted to do that, like live abroad, [01:45:55] um, before we had kids and like live that life where you were earning and working in the sun [01:46:00] and things like that. But to be honest, I am Irish. So like.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kind of doing.

Meghan Chard: My skin like I’m 100%. [01:46:05] I’m not 100%, but I’m like 88% Celtic. My genetics. So [01:46:10] like, I think it’s actually like a, it’s like not really reality. I’d have been burnt. I’ve been like a red, a [01:46:15] red sweaty mess to be honest. So, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like Australian?

Meghan Chard: Um. My brother lives there. [01:46:20] So yeah, I do like it’s very far away. Yeah. So I’ve been a couple of times, but, um, [01:46:25] yeah, the vibe.

Payman Langroudi: Is it more like South Africa? Yeah. Like America. I’ve never been.

Meghan Chard: It’s like South Africa, [01:46:30] South Africa kind of vibes. Yeah. It’s like really beautiful, like lots of nature walks. [01:46:35] Like everyone does their fitness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s quite and [01:46:40] quite similar culturally to like England. I would say it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive, massive pleasure. I really [01:46:45] enjoyed it.

Meghan Chard: Oh, thanks for having me on. Payman. I really enjoyed it.

[VOICE]: This [01:46:50] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:46:55] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:47:00] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:47:05] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:47:10] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:47:15] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:47:25] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:47:30] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Henry Totterdell onto the podcast. Henry is a very interesting grad [00:00:55] graduate student, graduate dental student who I [00:01:00] met. Where was dentistry show?

Henry Totterdell: We met at the dentistry. Yeah. Dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I saw fire in your eyes that day. Yeah. [00:01:05] So, um, you you you’ve become an engineer [00:01:10] first, a mechanical engineer first. That’s right. It’s kind of an interesting route to dentistry, then worked [00:01:15] for a good ten years before choosing to go back and become a dental [00:01:20] student. Aged what?

Henry Totterdell: I was 34 when I started. Yeah, 37 [00:01:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: And now the third year in Bristol.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Year three. Bristol Dental School. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And also [00:01:30] running a sort of a innovations hub at Dental Innovations Hub that where you sort of have [00:01:35] bits outside of the regular dental course for the students.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. That’s right. That’s the little like side project [00:01:40] on the side of the main course that sort of keeps me, keeps me interested in what’s going on in dentistry outside [00:01:45] of the actual clinical course, which is quite exciting. Allows me to give something back to the students as well, which [00:01:50] I really like.

Payman Langroudi: And not not to mention I look at your Instagram, it looks like an amazing travel blog. [00:01:55]

Henry Totterdell: Oh yeah, of course.

Payman Langroudi: You’re constantly away, right?

Henry Totterdell: I’d say I’m like a net absorber [00:02:00] of Instagram and social media rather than a contributor. I find it quite hard to go out there and [00:02:05] sort of post, post about myself, but every now and then I’ll be like, oh, I’ve been on this really cool trip. Like, I like my [00:02:10] friends want to know about that. So I then put up some, some trips. I’ve been really fortunate actually. I think that was [00:02:15] the, the perk of like my grad job and just like just being me, I had the, the time and [00:02:20] just go an adventure anywhere that I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: What are some of your favourite places you’ve been?

Henry Totterdell: Oh gosh, there’s so many. Um, [00:02:25] so somewhere like locally, I just, I love just going around France, but Slovenia. [00:02:30] Triglav National Park. The hiking there is unreal. And the the Alps there are very different than most [00:02:35] like a, I don’t know, like a Martian landscape that really jaggedy and aggressive. The hiking there is incredible. [00:02:40] Uh, Colombia. Absolutely love Colombia. India. Um, just so different to the [00:02:45] UK. Like really opens your eyes up to just humanity around the world. I absolutely love that. [00:02:50] Yeah. Colombia. I can’t put a single thing like a finger on my finger on a single thing. [00:02:55] Like what’s amazing about it? It’s just in general, it’s a really great.

Payman Langroudi: Did you travel around Colombia?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I [00:03:00] spent six weeks there back in 2019. Yeah. It’s just like popping around all the major cities. A [00:03:05] couple of hikes up in some national parks, like a really great country. People. People are so lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. My [00:03:10] my son’s going Colombia because he he didn’t take a year off. Yeah. Which I really feel [00:03:15] like I’m a failure for not persuading him to.

Henry Totterdell: Do it after uni. Like when you’re a bit older, you’re more confident.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:03:20] he’s doing is he’s joining some of his buddies who did take a year off. I love that. And but he’s he’s going to Colombia, [00:03:25] but he’s not going to Bogota or Medellin or he’s not there in a different part of their [00:03:30] travels at that point where he can make it there.

Henry Totterdell: It’s such a big country. Yeah. Because you’ve got everything there. You’ve [00:03:35] got cities, mountains, like seaside. Then you’ve got jungle, so you can have some [00:03:40] rainforest. Beautiful place. Yeah. So you can have like the most diverse adventure you possibly want. It’s such a [00:03:45] great country. Yeah. He’s gonna have.

Payman Langroudi: Fun for travel, I think. Like, travelling young is super important, you know, like. [00:03:50]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I would agree with you. Like, whilst you’ve got that freedom to do it. Your mind is super open. [00:03:55] Yeah. You’re inquisitive. Yeah, yeah. And I think it then gives you so much more back. Um, [00:04:00] when you then take that experience into whatever you do next, you definitely have a much more rounded [00:04:05] perspective on, on life and humanity, which I think is, is really important. And you, it gives you a confidence [00:04:10] as well to like, go and say hi to people. Yeah, to meet people to do.

Payman Langroudi: You travel on your own as well?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, mostly. [00:04:15] Yeah. Which is good. Yeah, I’ve done a lot of it. Um, or I’ll like meet people on the way for like a two week period [00:04:20] on the way. Yeah, yeah. I was glad actually, when I went to India, I was glad my friend was doing his grad scheme [00:04:25] out there. I landed in the middle of Mumbai. I’d never been abroad by myself before. And it’s quite a quite [00:04:30] an intense place.

Payman Langroudi: Mumbai.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just got stuck in a traffic jam I’ve ever been in.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, yeah. You [00:04:35] can be stuck as a pedestrian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You literally sit there. You’re on the pavement. I can’t go anywhere right now. Like [00:04:40] what is happening. But it’s part of the joy of it, right? And so that I think really sort of, uh, got [00:04:45] gave me confidence to go and go wherever I wanted by myself and knew that I would meet people [00:04:50] and have a good time. And if I didn’t meet people, I have a good time by myself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been far East.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, only as [00:04:55] far as Thailand. So yeah, it’s good, isn’t it? Yeah, like a really great country, [00:05:00] really nice place to travel around as well. People are so lovely. So much to see and do. Food is amazing. Yeah. [00:05:05] I think that’s one of the joys of travelling.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my favourite place this time.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I love it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit far [00:05:10] but but but now with Dubai it’s kind of like.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Henry Totterdell: You do need to go there [00:05:15] for like, you know, quite an extended period of time, I think to, to really make the most of that flight. But it’s so easy. [00:05:20] Like I say.

Payman Langroudi: Think back to your childhood. You grew up in Stroud.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I grew up in a place called [00:05:25] Stroud in Gloucestershire. Yeah. Um, sort of like a family of five.

Payman Langroudi: So your parents [00:05:30] involved in dentistry or medicine at all or anything?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, well, my dad was a vet, so he was [00:05:35] on the medical side. Yeah. I think he was probably always a little bit disappointed. None of us followed his footsteps. [00:05:40] Um, but now I finally am, so it’s quite, quite exciting. I did my vet work experience, [00:05:45] which was good. I just don’t think I ever was passionate love for animals and things [00:05:50] like that. So I sort of like put that back to one side and follow.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of vet was he?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Predominantly [00:05:55] small animal. But he’d do anything. Yeah. Absolutely anything. Yeah. He loved like the I guess of the patient. [00:06:00] I say the patient management, the the owner management and then the surgery. He could just operate all, all [00:06:05] day long I think. Yeah, yeah. He trained in London. Um and then yeah. So he was the, that’s where the medical [00:06:10] side comes from. Mum’s side of the family. Like farming and engineering mainly. So yeah, there’s a huge [00:06:15] number of engineers over in that side, which is quite.

Payman Langroudi: So you decided engineering.

Henry Totterdell: I decided engineering. [00:06:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How how random was that decision. Did you kind of know what you were getting into or you.

Henry Totterdell: I [00:06:25] think I didn’t know what the course fully involved. Yeah. I think I think like a lot of people [00:06:30] like you get to the end of A-levels or GCSEs and you say, well, what am I good at [00:06:35] at school? Cool. Well, I’ll, I’ll follow, follow that route. It seems like the next thing to do. So, [00:06:40] you know, I liked maths, I liked physics. Yeah. And so those types of subjects, um I took a [00:06:45] year or two out because I don’t know what to do at university. And then eventually decided to travel. [00:06:50] I didn’t then actually, no, I went to and then I injured my knee. So I needed to have surgery and things. So that sort of put [00:06:55] an end to that. But it allowed me to go back to back to college actually, and get the chemistry because I was looking at [00:07:00] medicine alongside engineering at the time and was like, well, if I do medicine, I need chemistry. So I focussed [00:07:05] on that and then came to the decision of, well, I like taking things apart, understanding how machines work, [00:07:10] maths, physics, I do engineering, it seems like the right route and threw myself in up at Loughborough. [00:07:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And which kit number are you?

Henry Totterdell: I’m the middle child. Number three. Yeah. Number two.

Payman Langroudi: Number [00:07:20] two.

Henry Totterdell: Number two. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh five.

Henry Totterdell: Well actually I do have five. Yeah. So I’ve got [00:07:25] two half sisters. Okay. Yeah. Who are from my dad’s previous, previous life. Um, [00:07:30] and then like my brother and sister. So I always say I’m just the middle child.

Payman Langroudi: Middle child.

Henry Totterdell: Those three amongst [00:07:35] the three of us. Yeah, yeah. Older brother, younger sister.

Payman Langroudi: So then you studied in Loughborough.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [00:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Great sporting place, amazing place.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing sort of campus [00:07:45] life.

Henry Totterdell: Really? Yeah. It’s one of the biggest campuses in the UK. Yeah, maybe not as big as somewhere like Manchester. [00:07:50] Yeah. But it’s sort of 4 or 500 acres. Everything happens on that campus from sport [00:07:55] to all your departments where you live. Um, it’s a brilliant place. And so it creates like this community. [00:08:00] There’s not much else to the town of Loughborough. I don’t know if you’ve ever been.

Payman Langroudi: But. Well, yeah, my son [00:08:05] went and he said he said the exact same thing. Yeah. And I said, well I think there must be a town nearby, right?

Henry Totterdell: Like there [00:08:10] is a town nearby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Coventry. Where is.

Henry Totterdell: It? Well, it’s right in the middle of between Nottingham and Leicester [00:08:15] and it’s in the middle. So you’ve got big cities in a short trip.

Payman Langroudi: Coventry is a different [00:08:20] one. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Coventry is I guess over near Warwick.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Warwick.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So. All right. And then [00:08:25] so you said you enjoyed it. I loved it and you enjoyed the course.

Henry Totterdell: You enjoyed the course. Yeah. Yeah it was.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:08:30] was.

Henry Totterdell: Hard. Yeah. It was hard. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about that. It’s uh, it’s pretty full on. Um, [00:08:35] yeah, a lot of lectures, a lot of coursework on top of that, a lot of exams. [00:08:40] And so you’re constantly sort of working towards it.

Payman Langroudi: When you compare engineering with dentistry, would [00:08:45] you say it’s harder than dentistry or less difficult?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, that’s a good question. I thought you might ask that. [00:08:50] Um it’s different I context to it. I was a lot younger when I did [00:08:55] engineering and my priorities in life were probably different. I was there to have a good time. So all the [00:09:00] extracurricular stuff was really high on my agenda is jam packed. I think, I think I probably [00:09:05] found engineering harder. Um, I think it was certainly, but I’m only halfway through dentistry, [00:09:10] so I’ve not got to the most demanding years yet. But I just remember there being a lot more coursework, a lot more expectation [00:09:15] on everything you did. Um, and therefore it took up a lot more of your time, you know. [00:09:20] Quite often you’d be sat there waiting for a computer to process overnight so that you could like if someone damaged [00:09:25] that model, you’d have to restart the next day. And you don’t really have that with dentistry. But I think dentistry [00:09:30] is about to get quite intense in years four and five when we’re on clinical day every day. So yeah, they’re [00:09:35] very different and there’s different ways of thinking as well. Engineering is very much objective. Maths like you get [00:09:40] to the outcome of your problem and you solved it. Whereas dentistry is like lots of remembering [00:09:45] facts and then applying those facts to things.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, the engineers end up doing [00:09:50] all sorts of different things. So they go into finance, they go into so. So do you reckon [00:09:55] the training of engineering sets you up for dentistry somewhat.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I [00:10:00] think you’ve hit on a really good point about engineering there. Like it’s so broad and it teaches you to problem [00:10:05] solve and think like so early on and always go back to first principles. Like you can solve any problem if you really [00:10:10] understand the basic building blocks to it. So I think that will really help me when [00:10:15] I get to get to dentistry. I already think about it now. So like, if you’re doing like all of our treatments ultimately [00:10:20] are almost like a, a series of steps and you need to include those and not include them. There’s like hundreds of [00:10:25] permutations as I’m learning, but ultimately you can, you can see the building blocks and think, well, how do I then turn this [00:10:30] into a treatment plan or a solution? So it will. Yeah, it definitely will help me and Mick.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:10:35] did. Yeah. Is what like, what’s the difference in mech engine for someone who doesn’t know. Mech engine. [00:10:40]

Henry Totterdell: Mech engine.

Payman Langroudi: Civil engineering.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I guess one of the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like. It’s like the [00:10:45] core one, right?

Henry Totterdell: It’s one of the core ones. Yeah. And it’s all about, I guess, how things [00:10:50] move and how energy is, um, sort of like move between different things in order to get outputs.

Payman Langroudi: So all sorts of [00:10:55] machines.

Henry Totterdell: So yeah, you do lots of, lots of things like you work out the forces on things that [00:11:00] move or spin or like how energy is transferred from a fuel to a useful [00:11:05] output at the end. And you learn how to, uh, understand what the energy in is and understand [00:11:10] what the energy out is, and then turn it from one form to the other into something useful. Yeah. Whereas [00:11:15] civil would be much more structured space. I need to build this bridge. How do I build this bridge [00:11:20] in the right way? Yeah, mechanical is much more about getting getting energy to do something useful.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing [00:11:25] about it. So then you then go and do some jobs. You finish. [00:11:30] So was it three years?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, I did five total.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Did you do a year in industry?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I did a year in industry [00:11:35] and I did the Masters. Oh, it’s one of the few courses you can do on undergraduate masters.

Payman Langroudi: So it was [00:11:40] a four year course to start with. And then you added a year.

Henry Totterdell: It was yeah, four years of the course, one year of year in industry. [00:11:45] Yeah. So that was I guess my first real.

Payman Langroudi: Commitment to something to then give it all up. Right. [00:11:50] But it is I want to talk through that process.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I feel it’s a big commitment. I think give ups [00:11:55] may be the wrong word. I feel like it gave me so much. And it’s just like a another part of my journey and like a [00:12:00] tool I have in my armour.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve stopped being a dentist.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, exactly. But like, how much do you get out [00:12:05] of that knowledge? Yeah. It’s incredible. Right. It’s, um, so it took me a long time [00:12:10] to give up, I guess through the degree I did my placement year, I worked in defence [00:12:15] mainly, um, down in Plymouth. So in the dockyards. Amazing experience. I think as a, [00:12:20] a young engineer who doesn’t know what they want to do to see like big machines that [00:12:25] like you can’t build in many places in the world, getting built and fixed and repaired is, is [00:12:30] something quite special. And that gave me a lot of a lot of focus to go back to the rest of the course and really knuckle down working. [00:12:35] Actually, it’s probably the the kick up the backside I needed after my first two years to, [00:12:40] to knuckle down and work and then finished the degree. Wasn’t sure exactly what to do [00:12:45] job wise. I had a job lined up with the company that I’d done my placement years with, which was [00:12:50] brilliant. I knew it’d be interesting, but it wasn’t giving me that that energy or fire that [00:12:55] I really wanted. Um, so I took a year out. I think like a lot of people, um, that was the [00:13:00] first time I’d ever really travelled the world by myself.

Payman Langroudi: So, so when you land in India.

Henry Totterdell: That’s when I landed in India. Yeah, [00:13:05] yeah. So when was that? December. After I finished, I spent a few months getting some money together and [00:13:10] then go. But in that time that I spent getting money together, I applied for other grad jobs. One [00:13:15] was with a consulting firm called Newton. Um, and I went to a presentation by accident at university. [00:13:20] A friend was like, oh, I’m off, off to this presentation by this company. She’d come along. I was like, yeah, sure. Sounds interesting. [00:13:25] And I got there and the first image was one of the submarines that was in the dockyard that had just been working [00:13:30] at. And that’s when they, they joined the engineering sort of problem solving [00:13:35] with sort of like the business side. And I was hooked on the idea of doing work for that company. It [00:13:40] gave me the chance to go and work in, you know, big defence projects, lots of different manufacturing [00:13:45] environments, social care, healthcare, grocery stores. And so [00:13:50] that that variation with using your problem solving skills.

Payman Langroudi: Would it be like a time limited bit of consulting that. [00:13:55]

Henry Totterdell: It.

Payman Langroudi: Might pull you in for?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, most often I think my first project was, say nine months up in Edinburgh on [00:14:00] the aircraft carriers, sort of like helping basically shorten the schedule of building those [00:14:05] and get everything really under control.

Payman Langroudi: And you were like a junior consultant.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. You’re just going as a consultant, [00:14:10] that’s it. And they give you four weeks of training.

Payman Langroudi: And they sort of rent you out at a higher hourly rate [00:14:15] than they pay you, I guess. Oh yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the business model.

Henry Totterdell: The business model is very good if you’re the, [00:14:20] the owners. I mean, it’s very good if you’re a consultant as well.

Payman Langroudi: How is it as a career? I mean, did you, did you double [00:14:25] your salary in the first five years or not?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, just about as I said. [00:14:30] Yeah. It’s good. Like if you’re not sure what you want to do for a career and you love like [00:14:35] meeting people and you love tackling problems and, and really staying curious and [00:14:40] focusing on them. It’s a brilliant way to get a really broad set of skills that you can take anywhere. So it’s [00:14:45] like the perfect adjunct to engineering really in that sense. Um, and then yeah, you’re [00:14:50] on the road a lot. That’s probably like the big downside. Um, and you don’t get to integrate into a big [00:14:55] company, say, and settle in, but you’re part of a consulting body. So Monday to Friday, I was with [00:15:00] a load of other mid 20 year olds living in a hotel and just having a great [00:15:05] life. Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Is it as hard as a management consultant for us? I mean, [00:15:10] I’ve got friends.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s a branch of.

Payman Langroudi: Friends who went into that. Yeah. And they were constantly [00:15:15] travelling and, and working their butts off. I mean, they’re working felt [00:15:20] like 24/7.

Henry Totterdell: It was tough from that point of view. Like every week you’d get on a train or a flight [00:15:25] somewhere and work, but you were quite lucky in that the engagements are quite long. So you did get, like nine [00:15:30] months in one place. Yeah, it was pretty good. The company I worked for were very keen on having that [00:15:35] work life balance. So you were home by 6:00 on a Friday and if you worked on a weekend. I [00:15:40] remember getting told off once they were like, why did you work on the weekend? Don’t do that. So they were good at that. But in the week it [00:15:45] could get quite intense, but probably 730 to 6 every day, something like that with maybe an hour in.

Payman Langroudi: The evening, [00:15:50] deadline driven work.

Henry Totterdell: A lot of it is. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, that’s a set fee.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve is [00:15:55] there like politicking you have to be aware of like when you go into a business, you have to sort of understand [00:16:00] the relationships of the.

Henry Totterdell: You definitely have to understand people because I think sometimes [00:16:05] the mere fact you’ve got consultants in like, say, for example, if you’re going into a factory, um, [00:16:10] it might be to improve the efficiency of that factory or reduce the cost per unit of the [00:16:15] item that you’re making. Um, it’s usually the managing director or the general manager who’s, who’s [00:16:20] supposed to come in. Yeah. And then you’ve got the middle management who run the day to day operations, [00:16:25] suddenly having a group of quite young, very bright people with loads of energy [00:16:30] come in saying, hey, we can, we can help you fix this. But so I [00:16:35] say there’s definitely politics, but it’s, it’s more a real exercise in like [00:16:40] how to build relationships with people, how to build that trust and do it very quickly [00:16:45] so that you, you turn that sort of like maybe slightly hesitant person into someone who’s [00:16:50] on board and you’re solving the problem together, right? You’ve got to be so careful. It’s not, we’ve got a solution. [00:16:55] Um, do what we say. And it’s actually like we can help.

Payman Langroudi: Take them with you. [00:17:00]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, we can help you get there. We know you’ve got a problem. Like we’re some resource to help you solve that problem. Let’s [00:17:05] do it together. And you keep us on the right track and we’ll tell you what we think the the direction.

Payman Langroudi: Look, it sounds like a [00:17:10] super interesting, super cool job. So what was wrong with it?

Henry Totterdell: It was super interesting, super cool. Um, [00:17:15] a few things I think. I think I started to find I sort [00:17:20] of lost my purpose. I wasn’t something, um, I ended up just being like, you know, you [00:17:25] go and help a company if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a band aid.

Henry Totterdell: And then yeah. And then, well, hopefully the [00:17:30] goal was to leave something a bit more, you know, to fix the broken bone, not just not just to hold it [00:17:35] together. Um, and it found like you go from factory to factory or, and it was [00:17:40] sort of like rinse and repeat. And I couldn’t see myself like doing that forever. I wanted to [00:17:45] like, you know, say what I do and people be like, oh, I know what that is. I wanted to sort of be something. [00:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: That’s quite.

Henry Totterdell: Funny. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The motivations are so funny.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It is. And [00:17:55] I want to be something that like could contribute to people and society.

Payman Langroudi: But did [00:18:00] you not feel like you were contributing by making the price of that can of drink cheaper?

Henry Totterdell: Sort of. But [00:18:05] I did have a manager once say to me, like, we’re talking about the moisture content [00:18:10] in mashed potato. And he’s like, you’ve got to try and think about it. Like if you make it more consistent, then you’re [00:18:15] benefiting society. And I think I lost it at that point. I was like, you know, that was that. And therefore, like, [00:18:20] because I wasn’t fully bought in, I was, I was never going to make partner or anything like super senior. So like [00:18:25] that just wasn’t my skill set. And I think I realised cool, that was the case. I was like, right, well, [00:18:30] I’ve got to get out of here. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What did you do.

Henry Totterdell: Next? So next I went [00:18:35] and did some internal consulting. So I joined a, joined a company just outside bath. That’s a pharmaceutical company, [00:18:40] a real niche part of pharmaceuticals I never knew existed. They prepared en masse, [00:18:45] uh, chemotherapy and antibiotics for IV injection. So yeah, they would [00:18:50] take 100 vials of a small molecule or a monoclonal antibody and turn it into [00:18:55] 20 IV drips, ship it out to a hospital so the nurse can just put a needle on and [00:19:00] put it in. So that was their that was their core business. And they had a home care business on the side that [00:19:05] um, administered treatments in patients homes and things like that, which is quite cool. So they found.

Payman Langroudi: Your job was [00:19:10] to optimise their sort of their operations.

Henry Totterdell: Exactly that. So at the time they had a [00:19:15] huge like waiting list of orders that weren’t being fulfilled. Like the order lead time was getting longer [00:19:20] and longer and longer. So working out well, how do we improve capacity on one hand, but also sort of like [00:19:25] tempered demands on the other to make make sure it’s much more balanced. And then sort of throw me [00:19:30] any problem I can get involved in, whether it was just purely operational, output focussed, or whether [00:19:35] it was sort of like helping us sort of manage quality improvements, for example, like the MHRA [00:19:40] was a huge.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, like what comes in useful when you know. Yeah, I [00:19:45] remember I did, I did chemistry a level again, I couldn’t [00:19:50] see the applications properly or whatever. Yeah. And today I wish I paid more [00:19:55] attention at that. Yeah. Like, you know, or, and by the way, now I’m going back to chemistry. [00:20:00] Right. Um, but I never thought I’d be involved in chemistry. Yeah. But [00:20:05] now it’s like, it’s.

Henry Totterdell: Amazing how it comes full circle.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t doing a toothpaste, whatever. It’s, it’s all chemistry, right? [00:20:10]

Henry Totterdell: It comes straight back to you. And you have no idea that at some point.

Payman Langroudi: So that pharmaceutical world.

Henry Totterdell: Yes. [00:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: What what was it similar to all these other businesses that you’d consulted for.

Henry Totterdell: From [00:20:20] the outset, right? Raw materials go in. Yeah, product comes out and people [00:20:25] people manipulate that in the middle and turn it into that product.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you find because that was chemotherapy or [00:20:30] did you find that more purpose driven?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, hugely. Yeah. I like the fact that I [00:20:35] could see like you would get feedback from patients or from hospitals. And you could like, everybody [00:20:40] knows someone who’s had cancer, um, and has been impacted by it. And to know that you [00:20:45] could actually play a part in that value chain and help, um, help deliver the care [00:20:50] that people needed was, yeah, that felt much more purposeful than what I was doing before. And so I think [00:20:55] that started me back on the thoughts of, well, maybe I should go and look back at medicine. It was nice. [00:21:00] It was nice to move into that.

Payman Langroudi: So then what went wrong with that?

Henry Totterdell: What went wrong? Well.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:21:05] didn’t you, you know, you know, you could have whatever. You could have gone deeper into that field.

Henry Totterdell: Absolutely. Could have [00:21:10] stayed deeper in that field. Um, what went wrong? Probably a couple [00:21:15] of things. I think an itch to do medicine never went away. I wouldn’t say something necessarily went [00:21:20] wrong with that. I just sort of started to ask myself, like, I guess I was given the [00:21:25] opportunity a couple of times to shape what my job would look like there. And each time I couldn’t couldn’t [00:21:30] pinpoint, like I could write down this job description. Sounds really good. I want to get involved with this and [00:21:35] this, but at the end of it, I wasn’t like, I can’t wait to sign that contract. And this itch to do medicine [00:21:40] didn’t go away. And I thought, well, if this keeps happening, then I need to. I [00:21:45] asked myself if I got to 70 or 80, would I regret not at least having researched [00:21:50] it and I thought I would. So I said, I’ll go and research medicine before I go any further, thinking [00:21:55] that would be enough for me to go. I’ve looked at it. I’ll bury that forever. But [00:22:00] what actually happened was I looked at it and thought, no, I really want to go in. I really want to go and study. And so at that [00:22:05] point, I said, well, I will stay working until I go and do my course. And then so yeah, found the path [00:22:10] that I actually wanted to follow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s something to do with your dad’s influence that [00:22:15] this need to do medicine?

Henry Totterdell: Maybe. Perhaps not the need to. But I think the [00:22:20] things that we find interesting, like one of the things I missed most when I transitioned, [00:22:25] I guess, into the corporate world was just using my hands like I would be, you [00:22:30] know, typing in Excel or making slide decks all the time. And I missed just like making something and [00:22:35] being a bit more creative. And I know that was something like he absolutely loved [00:22:40] about like surgery. Yeah. Surgery in particular. He could operate all day, every day. And [00:22:45] I loved doing things like he did. So like he would do all the DIY at home and build things. And I’m like, well, you know what? I love doing [00:22:50] that too. I used to my toys when I was a kid were always about building things and making things. [00:22:55] And so I think I really realised that actually I missed hugely that part of, of, um, [00:23:00] of a career and really, really needed that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, right? You the [00:23:05] training to become a dentist or, or an engineer. Yeah, yeah. If someone [00:23:10] has a 12 year old, I tell them, hey, get him to build things.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [00:23:15] Oh, totally.

Payman Langroudi: You know, get him, get him into DIY and all that. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Know how to use your hands to actually.

Payman Langroudi: Do. [00:23:20]

Henry Totterdell: Something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We do a composite hands on course. Depeche. Honestly, [00:23:25] once in a generation. Talent. Yeah. He says the thing that gave him the most was design and technology a [00:23:30] level.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, it doesn’t surprise me.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more than physics or chemistry or biology. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: One [00:23:35] of our lecturers always says that he finds the the students who have done a lot of DIY [00:23:40] or similar, they just know how to problem solve and know how to use their hands and, and achieve [00:23:45] things with what they’ve got in front of them and the tools. So it’s definitely useful.

Payman Langroudi: So how long was it between deciding [00:23:50] you were going to leave engineering and start dentistry? The [00:23:55] decision to do that and actually doing it.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, probably two and a half [00:24:00] years.

Payman Langroudi: Save some money.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So I had to, I had to save money firstly in order to, to fund [00:24:05] it. Uh, I then had to check where I wanted to go and also reassure myself [00:24:10] that it was actually the right decision. And go through that wavering process of like, am I [00:24:15] really.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go to some dentist?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I went to shadow some dentists, gave a bunch of dentists a cool, just had coffee [00:24:20] with them, uh, you know, spoke to dentists a lot at the time. I was dating a dentist, so that was really [00:24:25] useful. Got really good insight into, uh, into it. Um, and then yeah, so two and half years and [00:24:30] then you’ve got to go through the application cycle.

Payman Langroudi: So which is tough as well, right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And then wait to start. [00:24:35] It’s probably one of the hardest bits. I think it’s because so many people try to get into dentistry these [00:24:40] days.

Payman Langroudi: And how do they view grads.

Henry Totterdell: Um, it varies by university. I [00:24:45] felt, uh, when I went to Bristol and I looked around, I got a real sense [00:24:50] that they were so open to people with all different backgrounds, which really then made like attracted [00:24:55] me. I was like, right, okay. Like I feel like I can, I can get into this dental school, uh, [00:25:00] other dental schools. I’d ring up and say, hey, I’ve got a degree. I’ve got these A-levels. Like, what’s [00:25:05] the approach here? And they’d be like, oh, you need, I don’t know, biology and chemistry sat in the same year. I’m like, well, I can’t, [00:25:10] I can’t do that. I set my A levels 15 years ago like this just can’t. So it was a non-starter. [00:25:15] So I went to schools that felt like I felt most welcome when I looked around. Um, [00:25:20] it’s not saying I wasn’t welcome at other schools, but they were, they were the most, you know, adaptive in their application [00:25:25] process, which, which was useful.

Payman Langroudi: And how much do you pay? You pay like regular regular. [00:25:30]

Henry Totterdell: Uk tuition fees. Uk edition this year it’s nine 500. I think it’s just gone up. And then [00:25:35] next year is a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: So it makes no difference that you’re a grad in that respect.

Henry Totterdell: No difference. No, no. The only bit I [00:25:40] can’t get is because I’ve got an undergrad degree already. I can’t get the student funding, which is a pain. Yeah. [00:25:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s. So you had to save up?

Henry Totterdell: Yes. I had to save up. And then of course, because you’re you’re not earning for [00:25:50] five years, whereas you used to be earning it’s change of lifestyle savings to live, see friends and have fun [00:25:55] still.

Payman Langroudi: And are you are you working on the side as.

Henry Totterdell: Much as I can? Yeah. So I’ve been quite fortunate. I think the [00:26:00] first three years they’re a bit less intense than the last two. So summer, just try and get a [00:26:05] contract for sort of ten, 12 weeks. And then I’ve just I’ve just started a new [00:26:10] project actually as of yesterday with a consultancy in London that specialises in health and [00:26:15] social care. So I’ll be helping, I’ll be working with a county council looking at, uh, [00:26:20] this sort of social care around mental health and learning disabilities education.

Payman Langroudi: So for doing that all at [00:26:25] the same time as the Dental course.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Do that on the side as much as I can. Um, so sometimes it’s [00:26:30] a couple of days a week, sometimes it’s nothing. And then I try and consolidate into the holidays what I can [00:26:35] and just basically trying to make sure that when I get to year five, I can still go and see my friends and have a have a good [00:26:40] time and enjoy life. Not just not just struggle through.

Payman Langroudi: And when you get in there as a grad, [00:26:45] yeah. Do you recognise the faces of these young 18 year olds? Like, do you see yourself in [00:26:50] them? And the I mean, obviously they’re trying to have a great time and you’re now being very serious, I guess. [00:26:55]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you going out there having a good time?

Henry Totterdell: Definitely much more focussed on like, [00:27:00] I’m at university for a reason to get the degree and then like get back on with, with my [00:27:05] new career. Um, yeah, it’s really nice actually seeing them go through that transition [00:27:10] of like, I can remember the first time I left home and arrived at uni and seeing them all go through [00:27:15] that. And you just see how quickly people grow at university to like how immature I was when I went to university [00:27:20] first time around that first week, and then three years later, you, you can look back and think, [00:27:25] oh wow, I knew nothing at 18. I’m now 21 and I probably still don’t know nothing. But yeah, you really start [00:27:30] to appreciate that growth. So it’s really lovely seeing them all go through that, that journey, journey of life. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’ve had a few years to sort of understand the, the sort of different [00:27:40] areas of engineering that you could have gone into and what you enjoy and what you don’t and all [00:27:45] that. Do you would you think about going forward like it’s different if we have [00:27:50] you in front of me and another third year sitting here who just, you know, 21 [00:27:55] years old, you know, that third year could easily say, look, I’m just going to try and do [00:28:00] a bit of everything, figure out what I like, and then decide from there where I’m going. You, [00:28:05] with your sort of experience of life so far, might have a different outlook [00:28:10] on that. I mean, what I’m what I’m getting at is, for [00:28:15] me, you enjoy anything you’re really good at.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [00:28:20] yeah, yeah. I think that’s true. I think everyone like we all.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, obviously [00:28:25] you can’t say, right. I could be really good plumber or I could be a really good vet or I could be a really good [00:28:30] rocket scientist. All right. But within dentistry, I think outside of oral surgery, which [00:28:35] is like slightly less lateral kind of skill, the rest of them, you [00:28:40] could, you could dive into any of those and enjoy the hell out [00:28:45] of them by getting better at them.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s so true. I think that’s, [00:28:50] um, all humans are like that, right? We, we all always have a tendency to move towards the [00:28:55] things that we, we really enjoy. Yeah. I think, I think that’s one of the things that’s most exciting about dentistry is [00:29:00] that as I’m learning a new treatment. Every time I find myself enjoying more and more and more, and [00:29:05] I just can’t wait to do more of these treatments on patients, I can really learn what what I like when I’m actually [00:29:10] delivering that care to someone. Yeah. Um, and then I don’t feel I’ve [00:29:15] got that pathway mapped out yet. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m not necessarily saying you need to give me the full, full [00:29:20] life cycle. But but before we were talking, you were saying, you know, the idea of having a practice. Yeah. [00:29:25]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s which is a beautiful thing.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A beautiful thing, a practice where, you know, you set the situation [00:29:30] in that practice and you do the best you can and you perfect it and perfect it and perfect it a beautiful thing. [00:29:35]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So that really excites me. It’s like the idea of creating something that’s a bit more than just [00:29:40] me as a dentist in a room. I want to create an environment for, for other people [00:29:45] and also for society as well, for like for patients to come and actually get the care that they, [00:29:50] they deserve.

Payman Langroudi: And the next man can say 50 practices. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:29:55] then I’d say the sooner he decided that or she decided that the sooner, [00:30:00] the sooner you could, like, think about private equity and all the stuff that that takes. Yeah. You know, it’s not it’s [00:30:05] not like going to the bank and saying, can I borrow £500,000? It’s a much bigger situation [00:30:10] than that.

Henry Totterdell: It’s so true. I think I’ve probably set myself a deadline to get things up [00:30:15] and running with that sort of like 3 to 5 years out of the university. I want to pass a course, [00:30:20] like become a dentist. That’s step one. Do my DFT. Yeah. I’m quite excited about the idea of doing DCT [00:30:25] just because I think the clinical learning would be.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s normally that’s in a hospital [00:30:30] right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. In a hospital one one of the things that I worry I’ll miss most when [00:30:35] I become a dentist is the bigger team. Like I’m very aware that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s much [00:30:40] more social in DCT than in practice.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: Practice is very isolating. The first time [00:30:45] you sit in it, you even feel it in in in PhD. Yeah. The first time you sit in that [00:30:50] room, which generally is the worst room in the practice because you’re the PhD. Um, with that nurse [00:30:55] and you think, is this it? Is this room everything? [00:31:00]

Henry Totterdell: That’s one of the things I think will I find hardest to adjust to you. It’ll just be me and my nurse [00:31:05] and then the patient who comes in every, I don’t know, ten minutes, perhaps you get a new patient and missing [00:31:10] that bigger team. So DCT excites me from that that point of view as well. And then I’ll spend the next [00:31:15] two to 1 to 3 years just trying to become good at dentistry and, you know, confident [00:31:20] in what I’m doing. Understanding is still huge journey to go. And then I know by that point I’ll [00:31:25] be on a track to either. Right. Let’s work out how do I get a practice set up? Or if I want [00:31:30] to specialise, like how do I go and how do I go and do that? Um, but I’m just enjoying like finding [00:31:35] each new treatment quite exciting at the moment. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so you’ve, you’ve, you’ve organised [00:31:40] these sort of extracurricular learning for your, for your peers. Yeah. [00:31:45] Out of the ones that you go through some of the things that you’ve, you’ve done. So tell me what you thought of them. [00:31:50]

Henry Totterdell: In a nutshell. It’s, uh, it’s sort of like a community to introduce the dental school students [00:31:55] to innovation that is present in dentistry right now. Um, sort of [00:32:00] stuff we don’t learn on our course every day. So we had a couple of events so far. We try and do a big, uh, [00:32:05] sort of like I guess Keystone or cornerstone event every term. Um, so one was about the [00:32:10] digital patient journey. So everything from, uh, sort of like the clinical exam. [00:32:15] So the note taking and making that digital or semi-automated with tools like Heroku followed [00:32:20] by new digital scanners, and then sort of like chairside milling. And [00:32:25] so you can see that whole patient journey from they turn up to they get definitive treatment. The next one was much [00:32:30] more about the business of dentistry. We don’t learn anything actually about business [00:32:35] in dental school from the very simple, like what is revenue? What is profit? What [00:32:40] are costs? Like, we don’t really know how much everything costs yet. We’re they’re squirting half a tube of ledermix [00:32:45] onto a thing to use a tiny pea sized amount.

Payman Langroudi: So who did you get to talk about [00:32:50] that?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, so we had, um, three speakers for that. We had one of our supervisors, [00:32:55] Brad Hall. He’s brilliant. He’s got his own practice in Bristol, but he’s just so passionate about [00:33:00] sharing his knowledge and expertise with students. So he talked to us a very [00:33:05] high level overview of what a what a practice is and everything he thinks about when when he clocks [00:33:10] off from surgery every night, what else does he think about? We then had an ex Bristol grad called Edith. [00:33:15] Edith Kagan, um, who has just set up a practice in Bristol. So he went from Bristol grad [00:33:20] to having his own practice. What was his journey like? How did he go through it? And then finally we had, um, [00:33:25] a company called Spot on Business Planning. I know them, you know them. Yeah. So they came and gave a talk on cost controllers. [00:33:30] Yeah. How do they, how do they help you actually understand what the costs are involved in every appointment? [00:33:35] And then how do you use that to maximise your revenue? Um, so that gave like a really nice [00:33:40] introduction to like what’s an endless topic for?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, which is very [00:33:45] cool. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So that’s sort of our big events. And then we have, uh, we started to do smaller events [00:33:50] because the big ones take quite a long time to organise and you’ve got to find people to pay for pizza and things like that to get students [00:33:55] to come. So we’ve got like some brilliant, brilliant supervisors at Dental School. So we said, [00:34:00] well, how can we utilise their enthusiasm more? And so we’re now doing lunchtime lunch and learns [00:34:05] on photography with one of our supervisors. And also we’ve got several Dental microscopes [00:34:10] at the school. So having our endo leads show us how to actually use those microscopes, not just for endo, but [00:34:15] even just for taking pictures of a prep you’ve done for a filling. So, and just trying to get as many students [00:34:20] through those events as possible and, and give them a bit more to their course, a bit more around experience [00:34:25] and help them use the tools that are available to us.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super important, man, because the rate at which the Dental [00:34:30] course changes is really sluggish.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It is. Yeah. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know what the process of changing the Dental course, what happens? Like who decides what, [00:34:40] but it doesn’t change.

Henry Totterdell: It’s a good question. A lot has to go. I think it’s probably a legacy [00:34:45] of university always being quite bureaucratic. There’s always committees, and then you’ve got the regulator that you’ve got to [00:34:50] satisfy on the side, and therefore you end up with like, well, if you want to change this on the course, we’ll do that [00:34:55] in two years time. Yeah, I’m sure it could change faster with really good communication relationship [00:35:00] with the regulator. And then sort of like a determination to be a bit more agile in [00:35:05] the school, but it takes a big change from everything.

Payman Langroudi: Scanners as far as if you weren’t doing the scanner [00:35:10] piece, does the school do a scanner piece?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So we’re at Bristol, I don’t know. The school has a slightly different [00:35:15] setup to other dental schools. We’ve got brand new school right next to Temple Meads station [00:35:20] opened in my first year. So 2023.

Payman Langroudi: How lucky for you.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, it couldn’t have been [00:35:25] more lucky with that. Like really, really fortunate. But I think one thing they have done is sort of separated themselves from [00:35:30] the NHS. So the school is much more in control about the equipment we have and what’s in the what’s [00:35:35] in the course, what’s taught, which will allow them to move more quickly because the school decides [00:35:40] now what’s taught, but it also means they’ve been able to invest in things like scanners. So we’ve just had delivery, I think, of 11 [00:35:45] new scanners, and we’re all slowly starting to have an intro to how to use the scanner. As we’re learning [00:35:50] how to do crown preps, we can then go and learn how to scan it. So the schools really like forward thinking. It’s [00:35:55] grabbing it by the horns and saying, well, if you’ve got like, what can we do to actually get students ready for how dentistry [00:36:00] will look when they graduate? So it’s quite an exciting place to be from that point of view.

Payman Langroudi: So, so far, what sparked your interest. [00:36:05]

Henry Totterdell: In, in general dentistry? Um, so clinically, [00:36:10] I’m very, very junior, but did my first extraction the other week. Oral surgery is brilliant. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a wonderful moment. The first extraction.

Henry Totterdell: It was a wonderful moment. And like the tutors there are fantastic. [00:36:20] The patients are great. You know, they’re all volunteers. So I don’t know how they feel about having people who’ve [00:36:25] never done it before, but it was just something really satisfying about, I think. I think perhaps it’s easiest to get [00:36:30] clarity on what you’re doing, like patients there with a tooth that can’t be restored or they’ve opted to have it out, [00:36:35] you give the treatment, send them home, and as long as it’s all good, you don’t need to review it. It’s done. [00:36:40] Um, so I’ve loved that. Um, and then just the other bits that I’ve absolutely loved is just [00:36:45] having a patient in the chair and just being able to help them. Um, I’m probably too junior in like other procedures [00:36:50] right now, whether it’s restorative.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege, man. It’s a privilege when someone [00:36:55] trusts you to. I just had some dental work done. I hadn’t had any for [00:37:00] years and years and years. And my wife was a dentist. And she’s very, very gentle. Yeah, but [00:37:05] it’s horrible, man. It is horrible. And you have to keep remembering that because as you’re nowhere near at that moment [00:37:10] of sort of where it becomes second nature, but very soon it becomes second nature. By the time you’re [00:37:15] 50, you’re giving 20 injections a day and getting blasé about it. It’s so [00:37:20] true. But each time on the receiving end of that injection. Right.

Henry Totterdell: That’s the first one I’ve had in years.

Payman Langroudi: Horrible [00:37:25] feeling, you know, and then even a scale and polish. Isn’t that nice?

Henry Totterdell: No, it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: From the patient [00:37:30] experience.

Henry Totterdell: Especially, they catch you with the tip of the scaler. Yeah. So just having a patient in chair and being [00:37:35] able to, to help them and, and especially I’ve had patients long enough now that I can see [00:37:40] them improve on their own or just change their diet or something where I’m like, okay, [00:37:45] I’m actually having an impact on this person’s life. Then you do a filling on an anterior and you can see them look at it and [00:37:50] look at the photo of it next to you and you’re like, okay, you can just see the smile come on their face. And [00:37:55] so that bit I’m probably loving more than more than anything, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you know, the [00:38:00] funniest thing is some of the best bits of being a dentist are like patient says, thank [00:38:05] you. Yeah. And it like really means it. Yeah. It makes you feel so good because you went out of your way for them. Yeah. [00:38:10] It’s such a funny thing. You know, it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t mean that much, but it means it’s the best thing [00:38:15] about the job. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Totally agree.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Henry Totterdell: I think that’s one of the things that I really miss most in like my [00:38:20] old job was just like, not like almost not feeling like I could see what I was helping. Whereas [00:38:25] now I can and like, now I know that I’ve had an impact on someone’s life. Yeah. And you know, that might be on one hand, like, [00:38:30] really like egocentric on my side, but actually, like, I find it so rewarding [00:38:35] to know that I can make a change to that person.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s, let’s get on to the darker [00:38:40] part of the pod. Yeah. We like to talk about errors.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical [00:38:45] errors.

Henry Totterdell: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of us made our clinical errors in dental school.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I think everyone does. [00:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: I think I perforated in dental school. I, I put I put the [00:38:55] forceps around the wrong side tooth. Okay. And then realised yeah, I realised. [00:39:00] Yeah. But I think I’d injected the wrong side. By that time.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:39:05] else did I do? Well, those were the worst. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: We all got to learn. [00:39:10] Yeah, it’s part of learning. What about you? Um, there’s probably like two. Two quite simple [00:39:15] ones, I guess. Spring to mind so far. Um, one of the first times I ever scaled and polished someone, [00:39:20] they had a lot of calculus. Um, they had a mobile tooth and scaled either side of that, whereas [00:39:25] I probably should have left it because calculus was holding the tooth in, or at least keeping it more stable. [00:39:30] It needs to be removed anyway, but the patient wasn’t ready to have it removed. They didn’t know that that procedure.

Payman Langroudi: Out there [00:39:35] and then.

Henry Totterdell: It didn’t pop out. Luckily, no. And I’ve since done an impression on it and it still plenty of Vaseline. It’s still there. [00:39:40] Yeah, yeah, but it’s given me some study models. But it’s just a simple thing like that. Like the patient is expecting [00:39:45] to have to clean their teeth. The risk was they went home without a teeth, without there without [00:39:50] being consented for it. And so I felt pretty, pretty bad after that. Uh, and then another one [00:39:55] as assisting. So we all assist like the year fives, um, and just got the wrong cement out for a crown. [00:40:00] Uh, luckily it was still a suitable cement. Um, but the moment when I picked up the packaging [00:40:05] and realised that I picked the wrong cement and mixed it, we stuck the crown in with it, [00:40:10] my heart dropped and then.

Payman Langroudi: The guide asked for a different cement.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And these two things, the packaging is [00:40:15] exactly the same. Just a different, different word. Um, it’s still some Zoe based cement. Um [00:40:20] and so yeah, mixed it up, gave it to them. We glued it on, it was stuck. And then I picked [00:40:25] it up. I was like, oh, that’s not what he asked for. I just had to, you know, you just own up. You’re like, hey, I’ve [00:40:30] made a mistake. Is this okay? And luckily, like he was like, yeah, that’s absolutely fine for this material. [00:40:35] We’re okay. And I was like, phew, thank goodness.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the worst thing that’s happened to you.

Henry Totterdell: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But there must [00:40:40] be something else.

Henry Totterdell: Ten patient appointments so far.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So it’s, um. Yeah, it’s [00:40:45] quite early days. You know, I’ve probably like, prodded someone a bit hard with a scaler or [00:40:50] something like that. But you know, I’ve only done two, I think two fillings so far.

Payman Langroudi: Should we get into engineering errors? [00:40:55] Oh, God.

Henry Totterdell: There were so many of those. Like just consulting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Consulting. Oh, yeah. [00:41:00] Can you tell me a story there where you thought things could have gone better?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, gosh. There’s lots. Um, [00:41:05] there’s very simple again. So when I was a grad, it’s probably like six weeks in. I forgot to print something [00:41:10] out for someone, but it’s like an a one sheet that this guy had to present to his whole team with. And [00:41:15] I turn up and he’s like, Henry, where’s my printing? Like everyone just stood around him. Like the office is like 20 minute [00:41:20] walk away. It’s a huge dockyard. I got a dressing down that day like from him, like rightly so. Like [00:41:25] such a simple error. I had a checklist of what I needed, and I hadn’t checked, checked, checked through that. Um, [00:41:30] I’m trying to think of some other ones. Factories were always fun. Um, I, [00:41:35] I spent a year working in Canada in a meat factory. It was just [00:41:40] south of Toronto in Hamilton. Um, so we live in live in Toronto. On the weekends [00:41:45] and commute down to Hamilton. I love Toronto. I just love Canada.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Henry Totterdell: There’s something [00:41:50] so.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Canadians.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And, um, uh, I’m trying to think of the specifics [00:41:55] around the example, but this is a meat processing facility. It was all about making sliced [00:42:00] ham for companies like subway or the equivalent that they have in, in Canada. And [00:42:05] so you could change a setting on that slicing machine, and you go from neat stacks of ham to like just an [00:42:10] enormous pile. And I remember one time we were trying to change some settings in [00:42:15] order to make the. There were two things. Firstly, can it slice faster so you can get through each log of ham more [00:42:20] quickly, but also, can you get those stacks to stack perfectly so they go straight into the [00:42:25] the packaging. And we made an error where these, uh, these, these basically was jamming [00:42:30] up the sealing machine. So like ham was not sitting inside. It’s jamming up. And again, I just remember that was [00:42:35] due to us changing the settings, and the lion man just picked up this pile of ham and just slams it against [00:42:40] the wall. And he was like, really? Like, I loved it because he was a super like, emotional. You knew exactly what he was thinking. [00:42:45] He was so emotional and like, wore his heart on his sleeve. But at that moment, like the whole line just stopped. [00:42:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so manufacturing is so interesting. I’ve got a couple of friends in manufacturing, and once I went to a one [00:42:55] of their events, like a trade show where they buy machines. Yeah. [00:43:00] And I was so surprised, like the, if you buy the, if you’re buying some line that [00:43:05] makes something like a chocolate bar. Yeah, the number of chocolate bars per [00:43:10] minute that it puts out can double or triple the price of that machine. Yeah, just [00:43:15] the speed of it.

Henry Totterdell: It’s amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. And when we’re talking machines, they’re like £1 million [00:43:20] each. Suddenly it’s a 2 million or £3 million machine that does the same thing quicker.

Henry Totterdell: But when they [00:43:25] make, you know, what was in the ready meal factory, we’re making a million meals a week, right? Yeah. [00:43:30] You need a machine that can perform reliably and with with very little waste [00:43:35] like manufacturing margins, particularly in commoditized things like food and drink, are so low [00:43:40] that, you know, £100 million factory might only make £1 million a year on top. So everything has [00:43:45] to be ship shaped.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think of starting your own engineering [00:43:50] business?

Henry Totterdell: Um, I mean, the idea I danced with the idea.

Payman Langroudi: Because that would have that would [00:43:55] have given you meaning as well. Right. It would have your own business. You could have focussed it on any aspect. [00:44:00] Yeah. Did you, did you sort of have a risk issue with it or was the call of medicine [00:44:05] was too strong or what was it.

Henry Totterdell: Probably I’m quite open to risk. I think the fact [00:44:10] I’ve gone back to studying. Yeah. That’s like probably the sort of like I’ll jump in and [00:44:15] think later about the consequences. Not with everything. I know when to like, I need to understand the risk first. [00:44:20] Probably a bit of like, I probably didn’t feel I was strong enough at anything to say, [00:44:25] hey, I, I’ve got a brand around this skill that I can set up my own business for and [00:44:30] that’s probably the limiting factor. It would have been great fun to do, but I think a few [00:44:35] years away being nearly strong enough to to do that. So I just don’t think I’d have been very good at it. Yeah. [00:44:40] Or or not ready to do it or not. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not for everyone, right. It’s not for everyone at [00:44:45] all.

Henry Totterdell: I was going to see it much more clearly of how I’d get there as a dentist. I [00:44:50] can really see that path and and map it out.

Payman Langroudi: What’s a lecture [00:44:55] that comes to mind if I say some some lecture? By the way, feel free [00:45:00] to go in both directions. A lecture that really stands out to you. That sort of rang [00:45:05] as a brilliant lecture.

Henry Totterdell: I’ve got a few. Um there’s one I always remember from [00:45:10] my engineering days. I think it was my probably my third year and it was uh, the [00:45:15] combustion engine had just started that module and the lecturer walks in, covers all the smoke [00:45:20] alarms and then just sets lights, this thing at the front of the class. And what it turns out to be is like an [00:45:25] old beans can. He’s just drilled a little hole in the top, put some fuel in and set fire to it. And that’s the [00:45:30] most simple engine you can get because then you just get this pop, pop pop pop pop pop pop, pop as the you know, it [00:45:35] explodes, goes out, comes back. And then I just remember that because it just captivated me. [00:45:40] And I was like, right, I know why I’m doing this module. Um, and then more recently at dental school, there’s probably [00:45:45] been a couple, we had a evening lecture once by a guy called Doctor Nasser. Yeah, [00:45:50] yeah. The implantologist. Um, not that that’s a phrase, is it? I never know what [00:45:55] it is.

Payman Langroudi: People say.

Henry Totterdell: It. Yeah. Um but he came and showed his work and what he does and went [00:46:00] through 3 or 4 cases one evening at the dental school. And it really, I think it just [00:46:05] really opened my eyes to like how far you can go in dentistry. And that learning never stops. And, [00:46:10] you know, you can really focus down one narrow niche and become so incredibly good at it and [00:46:15] passionate. And that’s what gave me that buzz of like, cool, I can, I can see, see where I’m going. [00:46:20] Um, what can I think of for a more junior lecture? [00:46:25] Let me just check.

Payman Langroudi: I can. You’re good with blood.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, I’m absolutely fine [00:46:30] with blood. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you think implantology surgery? Oral surgery?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I’ve never been particularly [00:46:35] squeamish or anything like that.

Payman Langroudi: So squeamish. But. But, you know, like, some dentists just script [00:46:40] themselves and think. I’m not going to be a surgeon.

Henry Totterdell: No, I like that idea. Yeah. Not necessarily [00:46:45] of like all the blood and stuff, but like, I just it doesn’t put me off like, yeah, [00:46:50] well, it comes on.

Payman Langroudi: Super focusing on, on implants and yeah. Or perio [00:46:55] or, or surgery because I think there’s such a shortage of dentists who are happy [00:47:00] to jump into that area.

Henry Totterdell: No, I’d be quite excited to. Yeah. I’ve never, never been put off by that that [00:47:05] at all. But no, the implants bits got me thinking about another lecture again. It was another evening one, um [00:47:10] a guy called Pratik who’s just set up, it’s a Swindon dental clinic, [00:47:15] something like that. He’s part of the ITI but he just came to give an evening lecture on, uh, [00:47:20] just how do you care for an implant? And he just communicated so, so simply [00:47:25] like just quite complex ideas and made it so open to like me as a student. And yet all [00:47:30] the other dentists who are sat in the room who do implants day in and day out and it just yeah, [00:47:35] part of that just made me think, cool, that’s really great teaching. Um, I feel way more confident. I [00:47:40] feel welcome in this community. And yeah, it was really nice because that’s what I’m searching for. As I, as I [00:47:45] go through my training.

Payman Langroudi: We get some, uh, students onto our composite course [00:47:50] to watch. You know, they don’t, we don’t give them the hands on bit. Yeah, but just to [00:47:55] watch and it’s so interesting, like how they, they’ve never seen some of them have never seen anything [00:48:00] like that. Yeah. And so inspired.

Henry Totterdell: I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: So inspired. [00:48:05] You should come by.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I’d love to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ll organise that.

Henry Totterdell: Oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Um so inspired by [00:48:10] it. And the question of education itself has come up a lot for me. Um, but [00:48:15] you know, like we do a lot of education, we do a lot of online education and we do a lot of um, [00:48:20] in-person, um, courses and I [00:48:25] go to a lot of courses. What is it that makes [00:48:30] a course brilliant? Over, over one that isn’t so brilliant. Right.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [00:48:35] that’s a good question, I think.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve set up these courses basically we might [00:48:40] as well call them courses. I mean you’re not you’re not selling tickets to them, but they are courses.

Henry Totterdell: I think you’ve got to focus on outcomes. [00:48:45] Like what can that person take away? They can actually action, um, especially in a practical session. [00:48:50] And for that person to actually go away thinking that they can do, do it. So you give them confidence. [00:48:55] I think if you spend half the day just, I don’t know, waffling about yourself or. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: No, but you say outcomes, but like, you know, Amy showed a case. Yeah. You’re not, you’re not going to action [00:49:05] that the day after tomorrow. But but the inspiration piece is as important.

Henry Totterdell: I think it’s so important. [00:49:10] Yeah. And I guess it depends like, what is the goal of the course? Like the goal of me going to that course [00:49:15] was to have my eyes open to more about dentistry and the industry I’m getting into. Therefore, [00:49:20] I got everything I wanted wanted from it. I guess if it was a practical course you [00:49:25] want much more about, I can go away confident that I can actually do what. I’ve come to this course to learn [00:49:30] to do. Um, so yeah, I think you’ve got to think about it. What’s the goal? Why has the course been put on? Um, [00:49:35] I.

Payman Langroudi: Think a really important goal of if I’m, if I’m going to, especially post Covid, right, where [00:49:40] you can get a bunch of information online, a really important course of a goal of a [00:49:45] course is to meet people. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: To bounce ideas off each [00:49:50] other there. Yeah. But also to have these people to call on [00:49:55] later. Yeah. Even though we’ve got much more communities, [00:50:00] if, if you want to call it like, I don’t know, you could, there could be a dentist in Peru [00:50:05] who you feel as close to as someone who sat next to you at a course because you’re on [00:50:10] Instagram.

Henry Totterdell: Constantly.

Payman Langroudi: Messaging him. Yeah, there is something special. If you’re going to get up and leave [00:50:15] your house and go to this Event. Yeah. Something has to happen [00:50:20] for me. Something has to happen that makes it worth leaving your house.

Henry Totterdell: I couldn’t agree more. [00:50:25] Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a.

Henry Totterdell: Magic thing is so important.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s a magic in whatever [00:50:30] robots and AI come in, there’s going to be, you know, breaking bread with your [00:50:35] family or with your peers isn’t going to get replaced by AI. Yeah. So there’s [00:50:40] a magic in humans, you know, why do I bother getting you to come to the studio rather [00:50:45] than we could have done this all on Zoom. There’s a, there’s a magic in humans being next [00:50:50] to each other and interacting.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think like humans must exist to [00:50:55] like connect with each other.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And to build relationships. That was one of the hardest things when going to dental [00:51:00] school. Actually. A lot of lectures now are online. Yeah. So pre-recorded and you’re like, oh, [00:51:05] I’m just sat here. Me and my screen. Yeah. Like I think the thing that that leads us to miss [00:51:10] out on most is sitting with our peers all day, every day being like, what did you think of that lecture? Like, what did you learn? Like, [00:51:15] did you understand this? Yeah. And I think you’re spot on with like, if you go somewhere, it is because you build connection [00:51:20] as well as you get the, the key objects of the course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m doing this ministry [00:51:25] of sound, which I told you about. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: No, that sounds super exciting.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really focussed on that. One thing I find really [00:51:30] difficult is, is changing the energy in the room. And like sometimes just [00:51:35] some, some speakers, some rooms, some lighting energy is down. Yeah. Right. [00:51:40] In this place, you can push a couple of buttons and you can completely handle the energy.

Henry Totterdell: It’s one of the skills of [00:51:45] a DJ, right? You can read a room and make those subtle differences just by pressing play.

Payman Langroudi: On.

Henry Totterdell: The [00:51:50] lights, the smoke, or the next song. Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s a, a tough, uh, [00:51:55] a tough skill. I think that especially if you struggle with like some, some people, you can just listen to [00:52:00] all day when they talk and they’ve just got this natural energy, charisma. And I think people who are super passionate [00:52:05] about what they do, like just always interesting to listen about, like they just emanate [00:52:10] energy and passion. And I think if you don’t have that, it can be be very, very hard.

Payman Langroudi: But, [00:52:15] you know, as as a dentist, one of the key skills is, is soft skills, [00:52:20] right? And you’ll, you’ll notice as you become more involved [00:52:25] that you’ll find some of your friends have got one and not the other. Mhm. Yeah. [00:52:30] And, and some have both. Yeah. Some have neither. Yeah. Um, [00:52:35] but so interesting, insomuch as from the patient’s perspective. I [00:52:40] can’t tell what you’re up to in my mouth.

Henry Totterdell: Oh. No idea.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So most [00:52:45] of what a really diligent dentist does is kind of for himself in a way. Of [00:52:50] course it’s for the patient, but no one, no one will know about about that. The [00:52:55] way that you wedged that matrix. Yeah. Not even your nurse can really see what’s [00:53:00] going on. So true. Yeah. And and so okay, we do that. That’s what being a professional [00:53:05] is, right? Is, is, is what you do when no one else is looking. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: That’s the integrity. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: Defines. Defines a professional. Over every other category of person. Right. [00:53:15] Integrity. Um, but the soft skills are even [00:53:20] more important in a way.

Henry Totterdell: That’s so important. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, um, I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Often [00:53:25] look like you’ve got those. You’re like very naturally good at talking and connecting and all that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that something [00:53:30] that’s developed in like, like accelerated development of that while you’ve been in dental school?

Henry Totterdell: I [00:53:35] think I think most of it developed that first time I went to uni and then through consulting a consultant. Yeah. [00:53:40] It was, you’d have to have that, um, just confidence. [00:53:45] You could walk into a room of 100 people and just say hi and find the person you needed to talk [00:53:50] to. And so you’ve got very good at just talking to anyone and everyone. Um, and then I think, I think [00:53:55] probably also just grew into it as I got older through well through first time at university and then dental school, [00:54:00] I guess is helping, uh, cement that. It’s certainly making me think more about, um, how [00:54:05] do I understand the person in front of me and work out what’s important to them? Like, are they the engineer who [00:54:10] wants to know absolutely everything that you’re doing in my mouth. Or do they actually just care more that they’re going to get the procedure [00:54:15] at the end, and they’re comfortable just knowing that they don’t want to know the details because it makes them feel squeamish.

Payman Langroudi: And the emotional [00:54:20] intelligence to, to understand which is which. And one big mistake I see young dentists make [00:54:25] is they download everything in their head into the patient. Oh.

Henry Totterdell: Just I must read all of this off because [00:54:30] that’s how I do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s kind of sometimes it’s interesting to us. Yeah. Sometimes they think they’re being a really [00:54:35] good dentist by telling the patient everything. But very rare that a patient wants to know the details [00:54:40] of the way you’re going to cut. Yeah. It’s so true. They’re much more interested in the outcome. Yeah. That’s [00:54:45] that’s something.

Henry Totterdell: I think often. Yeah. And I most will tell you how much they want to know as well. And you can gauge it like if they [00:54:50] start asking more questions.

Payman Langroudi: Intelligent. Yeah. But a lot of, a lot of us are so busy trying to just [00:54:55] get through this moment that we forget that that’s a key point. Yeah. How [00:55:00] much does the patient should the patient know about this? Yeah. I mean, the patient doesn’t need to know which [00:55:05] anaesthetic you’re using for the sake of.

Henry Totterdell: They just want to know, will I feel pain? Yeah. And like, for how long? [00:55:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. Right. Um, so that’s one mistake I see. And then the other mistake I see sometimes is too [00:55:15] many choices. Mhm. Um, you know, we’re taught that sort of surgical sieve way of doing [00:55:20] things, you know, missing tooth. It could be a denture.

Henry Totterdell: It could be a bridge.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [00:55:25] tell them every single one and not make a recommendation. Yeah. Because, you know, we think, oh, it’s patient [00:55:30] centred. The patient decides it’s all well and good. But you know, whenever you’re in that [00:55:35] situation, you know, I’ve got a lawyer sometimes. Yeah. And he’s saying these are the three ways we could go. The difference between a good lawyer [00:55:40] and a great lawyer is which way would you go? Yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And they know which one’s right for you. [00:55:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because they understand you. It’s so true. I think on our consent forms, there’s always [00:55:50] the. What other options can you do? And you have to be like, we can do all of these things and just tell them. But you tend to [00:55:55] skip over those not not fully, but just give the lightweight intro of what they are. Yeah. But yeah. [00:56:00]

Payman Langroudi: Something else I would, I would sort of caution you on is as, as a junior, [00:56:05] you think that if you go through all the things that could go wrong, you’re kind of scaring [00:56:10] the patient or you’re putting them off the treatment. But it’s kind [00:56:15] of reassuring, kind of reassuring to know that, you know, what could go wrong. Yeah. You know.

Henry Totterdell: The [00:56:20] hard one to get right though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. It’s a delicate needle to dance.

Henry Totterdell: Patient come back and be like, oh, you [00:56:25] never said that. Yeah. Yeah. You do want them to.

Payman Langroudi: And the other important [00:56:30] best three words you can learn is, um, I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember [00:56:35] as a young dentist thinking I’m never allowed to say, I don’t know.

Henry Totterdell: And it’s so important to [00:56:40] know when to stop.

Payman Langroudi: No, but I don’t know. It’s such an important like, now when I talk to anyone, anyone, [00:56:45] and they say, I don’t know. I respect them more, not less. You know, [00:56:50] the last thing I want is someone who’s just making it up. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: If you don’t say, I don’t know, it gets you into so much trouble. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Like you just say, oh, I can work that out. It’s like, well, can you. And then you come back and you fail and they’re [00:57:00] like, instantly. And it just builds trust, right? The moment you I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, I had, I had it, I had it in my head [00:57:05] that patients think once you’ve done an examination that might have taken 20 minutes, you must [00:57:10] know what happens next. That should be a simple process. Step two. And then [00:57:15] I look at some of the top dentists in the country sometimes spend four hours thinking about which [00:57:20] way to go.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, but there’s so many different permutations of all the treatment you can do. I’ve really, [00:57:25] really started to see that that difference when I talked about oral surgery. And then I go on to restorative, [00:57:30] like the restorative permutations of like, what do you do all this treatment in?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:57:35] I mean, you get three, three dentists, five treatment plans.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s so true.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really true. [00:57:40]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And then like two patients with exactly the same problems, but like two different treatment plans again, because [00:57:45] it suits them and it’s right for them.

Payman Langroudi: What regrets have you got? Do you [00:57:50] regret coming into it as late as you did? Would you sort of maybe not done the pharmaceutical [00:57:55] job or whatever?

Henry Totterdell: Oh yes and no. I mean, I would never [00:58:00] have been ready to do it, I think. Five years ago, just financially, [00:58:05] probably more than anything. Um, I would love to have, I think worked out. [00:58:10] If I go back, I’d like to know what I could do. Like 15 years ago that [00:58:15] would have helped me get greater clarity on what I really would love in work. It’s probably [00:58:20] like that million dollar question. Like nobody, like you can’t quite crack it. If someone can crack [00:58:25] that, then like it’ll change our education system and like careers of people forever. Uh, that’s probably [00:58:30] like, I don’t feel like I can really regret it though, because I don’t feel like it’s something I didn’t learn. [00:58:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny word. Yeah, it’s a funny word, but you seem like quite an ambitious person.

Henry Totterdell: I feel yeah, fairly ambitious. [00:58:40] I would like to I would love to have done this earlier in life. Like that’s probably if I could change one thing, [00:58:45] it would be to have done it, done it earlier because I just feel like quite excited about the, the course [00:58:50] I’m on now. I can really see where I’m going. I can see all the different routes and almost like the logic that I’ll take [00:58:55] to decide which one I’ll go down. So yeah, I wouldn’t say a huge, huge regrets.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:59:00] like that, man. I like that, you know, the I remember the the grad [00:59:05] in my course. He was very good. He was very good as well. But the rest of us were getting drunk. [00:59:10] He was working shit out. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: I try and get the balance right. [00:59:15]

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Henry Totterdell: There’s two bits to dental school, isn’t there? There’s the. You’ve got to pass your exams, which are like all [00:59:20] the the academia. And then there’s becoming a dentist. I’m really trying to focus on the like [00:59:25] becoming a dentist, like passed the exams I need to and make sure I’m safe and like have the [00:59:30] background knowledge. I do, but actually.

Payman Langroudi: But do you have something in your head that’s kind of saying, oh, I’m behind. I [00:59:35] better hurry up. Is that is that part of your thinking?

Henry Totterdell: Not not [00:59:40] really. I think because I was there when I was a grad, I was probably like 2 or 3 years older than my manager [00:59:45] sometimes. And so I’ve always been quite comfortable with the fact that there’s people who are far younger than me who [00:59:50] will be way better than me, and they always will. They’ll always be there. You know, that prodigy or the genius who comes [00:59:55] along and.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Henry Totterdell: Absolutely nails it first time round. Like sometimes I probably [01:00:00] one of the things I find hardest actually is like, I feel like I’ve paused everything and it’s a long pause. [01:00:05] And so now I see all my friends continue to excel and it’s so lovely, like watching them do well. But sometimes like, [01:00:10] oh, I wish I could have that. I’m progressing a little bit more because Dental still does feel quite slow, [01:00:15] but I.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t.

Henry Totterdell: I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Worry about it. I remember, you know, like with doctors, you get this all the time, right? [01:00:20] I remember having a few of my doctor friends so ambitious. I want to be [01:00:25] a, the youngest consultant in, in, in the, in his cohort. [01:00:30] And you think why man? Yeah. What if he became a consultant three years after the youngest [01:00:35] consultant? Yeah, yeah. What would be the problem with that? What would be the problem with that? You know, nothing [01:00:40] but putting himself in a massive pressure, you know, regarding that notion of what you don’t want to [01:00:45] waste a year. Yeah, yeah. Um, now with you. Okay. It’s been, you know, a good 14 [01:00:50] years.

Henry Totterdell: 14, 15.

Payman Langroudi: Years that you could have started dentistry before. But it’s, [01:00:55] it’s Destructive force. Yeah, I think to worry too [01:01:00] much about anything like that, you’ll be left behind or whatever else.

Henry Totterdell: I much prefer focusing on like, well, where [01:01:05] am I now? Yeah. And what am I doing to make sure that the steps ahead of me are delivered as best I can? [01:01:10] Definitely like, because like you say, you can spend forever looking backwards. But actually it’s, you’ve [01:01:15] got to focus on what.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done an amazing thing. Yeah. The combination of your skills. I’ve [01:01:20] not come across before.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s interesting one, there’s not many.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across anyone who was an engineer who’s become a dentist? [01:01:25]

Henry Totterdell: I’ve bumped into people who’ve done engineering, then gone very quickly into dentistry. There’s a guy in our final [01:01:30] year who I think did an engineering degree first, but I don’t meet many people who then gone and done a sort [01:01:35] of 1010 year career stint before then packing it all in and coming back. So yeah, it’s quite unusual. [01:01:40] It’s quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you see dentistry going with your engineering brain on? [01:01:45]

Henry Totterdell: Oh God, where do I see it going? Um, I think it’d be really [01:01:50] interesting to see how we include more automation, particularly like mechanical automation will [01:01:55] that like, where will patients be comfortable with having machines doing things in their mouths? [01:02:00] Not not humans. And can we get machines to have like the sufficient tolerance [01:02:05] and control in order to do crown preps and things perfectly? Definitely that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:02:10] The second part of your question.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. You know, and like, you know, you can have that tolerance on that prep. So I think it’d be [01:02:15] interesting to see where that goes. I mean, digital pathways are so ingrained now. [01:02:20] I just see that becoming quite ubiquitous. Uh, such.

Payman Langroudi: An interesting thing. So you’re saying that you [01:02:25] see in the next eight years. Yeah. Let’s say a machine that’s fully [01:02:30] capable of.

Henry Totterdell: Well, I don’t know how far away that is, but what are the fundamentals of it exist [01:02:35] for me.

Payman Langroudi: For me. Look, the brain, the GPT in eight years time would be amazing. Yeah. Then all we’re talking [01:02:40] is hands and eyes, right? I mean, come on, that’s it. Can’t they figure it out? Well, we’ve.

Henry Totterdell: Got the motor control. Like you can [01:02:45] mill a crown in a chair side. Yeah. All you need is one on the end of a six axis [01:02:50] robot arm that can just roll around in the mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t see that as a problem. So that’s there. The hand and eyes and [01:02:55] all that. I don’t see what you said before. What will patients accept the empathy? I think that’s part [01:03:00] of it.

Henry Totterdell: That’s going to be the tougher step to take is, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Because because it’s scary [01:03:05] and all that. Um, but then at the same time, my, my cousin’s an eye surgeon, [01:03:10] you know, and, you know, whether or not it’s him sticking a needle in your eye [01:03:15] or this machine sticking a needle in your eye. I’m not sure, man. Yeah. I. [01:03:20]

Henry Totterdell: I think it’s maybe like one of the same challenges. We’re talking about Waymo earlier. Yeah. Like it’s [01:03:25] taking people a long time to accept they can get into a car without a driver. Yeah. Just because they feel like they’re out of control. [01:03:30] I think it’s probably a similar like if you’re asleep under general anaesthetic, people probably don’t [01:03:35] care.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Or they care, but not in the same way. But when it’s actually they’ve got a machine coming to like will it [01:03:40] stop. Won’t it stop. Like I don’t have enough trust yet of this. I think once we overcome that hurdle, [01:03:45] we’ll then probably quite quickly move into.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s so interesting is how everything’s a bit rubbish, [01:03:50] Like everything can be improved.

Henry Totterdell: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: Everything is rubbish, isn’t it?

Henry Totterdell: I o [01:03:55] in the world or in the world, like. And certification or whatever it is where.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s wrong, I don’t [01:04:00] know. Uh, the phones kind of good. Yeah. Yeah. Um. What else is good? Like [01:04:05] nothing else is good.

Henry Totterdell: It sometimes feels that way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My point is, like [01:04:10] every service, every, every hotel and restaurant is could be a lot better. [01:04:15] Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: It’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Every product in dentistry, like almost every move [01:04:20] we make, you feel like it’s a bit rubbish. Yeah. Yeah. So someone with a brain like yours. [01:04:25] Yeah. Could really make some interesting changes.

Henry Totterdell: It would be quite exciting. [01:04:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And especially because you’ve been in pharmaceutical. Yeah. You understand that? You know what that sort of supply [01:04:35] chain kind of thing is. Um, and all the consulting, all the different things that you’ve seen in consulting, [01:04:40] um, if I were you, I’d cast my net a little bit further than. [01:04:45]

Henry Totterdell: Just.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to be a single surgery practice owner. Yeah. By the way, [01:04:50] by the way, amazing thing being a single surgery owner. Amazing thing. Wonderful. One of the most [01:04:55] happy people I know, or types of people I know are people who have a single surgery [01:05:00] because the king of that castle. They do things exactly how they want to do it. Treat your patients [01:05:05] well, treat your team well, and you’re pretty much happy life. Happy life. You know, you can go on holiday, you can [01:05:10] send your kids to private school, whatever it is. Yeah. But it’s such a unique set of skills you’ve got [01:05:15] now.

Henry Totterdell: I’d love to learn more about what’s happening in that world, actually of dentistry. Like who are the movers [01:05:20] and shakers who are actually exploring? How do we get machines into.

Payman Langroudi: You know, about Zuckerberg’s [01:05:25] dad?

Henry Totterdell: I know nothing about Zuckerberg’s dad.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a dentist. Is he? Yeah, and he [01:05:30] was one of the earliest investors in Facebook. So now he’s a billionaire.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, right. He’s done well. [01:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so now he invests. He’s got a fund that invests in Dental. Yeah. It’s interesting. Start-ups. [01:05:40]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I need to read more about this and go and explore it more because it’s a whole world of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine [01:05:45] having nano robots or whatever. You know, like there’s so much, there’s so much you could do.

Henry Totterdell: So [01:05:50] true. And we could bring the speakers to the school, start to build a network and actually, you know, start to explore what innovations [01:05:55] are out there because I think it will change. It could change quite quickly as we go.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see you’ve got this constant smile on your [01:06:00] face.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How is it? Life hasn’t sort of taken that away from you.

Henry Totterdell: I don’t always [01:06:05] have it.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t always have it. I, I try and.

Henry Totterdell: I probably quite relentlessly optimistic. [01:06:10] I always try and think like things can be always better or things will be good and people mean [01:06:15] well. Um, yeah, I just think like, if you smile, like the world tends to smile back at you. And I think [01:06:20] it opens, it opens doors. I smile at people, say hello, and before you know it, you’re half [01:06:25] an hour into conversation. Uh, I guess it’s like how we met. I saw you at the show. I was like, oh, hey, I listened [01:06:30] to your podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And you were like, cool, let’s walk that way and talk and here I am. Yeah. No, I just [01:06:35] try and be happy as much as I can and try and focus on the things that I can impact and [01:06:40] change. Yeah. And I’m quite good at.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know such a such an optimistic guy. They want to be negative, [01:06:45] but what’s the darkest day so far in this journey?

Henry Totterdell: Oh wow.

Payman Langroudi: Or [01:06:50] what are some of what comes to mind?

Henry Totterdell: I think, um, I think how universities changed [01:06:55] through Covid compared to when I first went, when I first went, we were lucky if there were any lecture slides [01:07:00] online, it was like, you got there. There was a plastic projector with the [01:07:05] oh yeah. Oh yeah, the OHP that’s it. Or a chalkboard. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that’s what [01:07:10] I envisaged learning to be like. Whereas now like it talked about like pre-recorded online lectures. [01:07:15] I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Is it no choice to even go in?

Henry Totterdell: No, no, not for a lot of them. We have lectures [01:07:20] in person, but there’s a whole series which are just like, no, that’s how they’re delivered. And.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:07:25] it was literally Covid that did that.

Henry Totterdell: I think that was the transition. I can’t really pinpoint it. Like before that the Dental [01:07:30] school used to be in all the time. And I think this is Dental schools across the country. And I don’t think it’s helped by things like funding. [01:07:35] And, um, I think students want a very different experience now. It’s much more transactional, [01:07:40] um, university, you’re paying a lot more and you’re just like, I’m here to get this. Therefore, [01:07:45] we will do it.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The first time round you weren’t paying as much.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, three, three [01:07:50] grand a year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh is.

Henry Totterdell: That it? Yeah. It’s great.

Payman Langroudi: Like when I went, it was free.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Like even better.

Payman Langroudi: They even paid you. [01:07:55] They even paid you if you were. If you were. If you qualified.

Henry Totterdell: So good. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You know, that’s [01:08:00] probably a conversation or debate for another day of like, how we changed.

Payman Langroudi: Did you come out of the Loughborough with, [01:08:05] uh, debt?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I had about was it maybe 30 grand, 25, 30 grand.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [01:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you spent the first ten years paying that off? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So it was, [01:08:15] that was fine, but it felt like, uh, a realistic amount to pay back off. Yeah. Whereas [01:08:20] now it feels like it’s not. But going back to yeah, darkest days, like just those, [01:08:25] like getting through all those lectures, I was like, what have I signed up for? I thought I’d be immersed in like [01:08:30] a lecture theatre right now. There are a couple of mornings I woke up and I was like, I’m in a I’m in a bad way right [01:08:35] now. I need to call my friends and like, go for a beer. Like, really? I’m on the cusp of like, throwing it all in. This [01:08:40] is what I thought I was signing up to up.

Payman Langroudi: To first year.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, first year. And then like that [01:08:45] first term of second year in that first term, there was like a six week period where we must have had about a hundred [01:08:50] lectures or 80 just shy. Um, and I was like, I’m just sat here watching a screen by [01:08:55] myself. And, you know, there’s always the, well, why don’t you go and do it with someone else? I’m like, well, they’re gonna be on a different [01:09:00] we can’t talk. I’ve got my headphones in. And so that was, I found that the toughest. And that’s [01:09:05] when I really started questioning, like, have I made the right decision here? And it was still the right. I still wasn’t [01:09:10] so far in. I could jump out and have a really interesting story to tell whoever I went to [01:09:15] try and get a job with afterwards. But that’s what I found hardest.

Payman Langroudi: And you were living out of [01:09:20] town? Not in halls.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, so not really involved in the sort of the social [01:09:25] side.

Henry Totterdell: As, as a bath, living in bath at the time, commuting in. Um, I’m very fortunate. [01:09:30] I’ve got a really great group of friends in Bath and Bath and Bristol. They’ve all migrated out of London. [01:09:35] So I had like a really good social social scene around there. Okay. But I guess it made me [01:09:40] feel quite isolated from the course in that sense. And I wasn’t at uni to like it sounds bad, but [01:09:45] like to go and make a whole new like life and wealth of friends like I was when [01:09:50] I first went to uni where I was exploring and finding myself. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:09:55] compounding effect of these online lectures and.

Henry Totterdell: But I did want to get involved. I did want to like get to know [01:10:00] everyone and like, as we’ve become more clinical, I get to do that more and more and more. And it’s so lovely. Like getting to know people, even [01:10:05] though we’re like completely different stages in our life. Many of us, like I found, yeah, just by, just [01:10:10] by owning the fact I’m older people are super inquisitive and it’s great, great to see them too, because they bring something [01:10:15] new to me, like new ways of learning, thinking, and yeah, people 15 years younger than [01:10:20] me. It’s great. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What pisses you off about dentistry?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, what pisses [01:10:25] me off about dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Henry Totterdell: Far? Oh, that’s that’s a good question. [01:10:30] One thing I find maybe doesn’t piss me off. I find a bit sad is how many people don’t like the dentist. [01:10:35] And it’s not like they don’t like you as a person. It’s not they don’t like you, sorry. It’s they just don’t like the dentist. [01:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: Nervous? Nervous?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Nervous. Bad experiences. It’s a very peculiar thing, having someone you [01:10:45] don’t know put their hands in your mouth. Like barely anyone puts their hands in someone else’s [01:10:50] mouth at the best of times. So I find that a bit sad. And I’d love to find a way to [01:10:55] to change that.

Payman Langroudi: And become that dentist, right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I become that dentist that’s really good. With nervous patients.

Henry Totterdell: It [01:11:00] would be good. I think. I often like look at people overseas in the US and like so many people I’ve [01:11:05] spoken to, they’re like, oh, I love going for my cleaning or I love going to this. And I’m like, what’s being done differently there that [01:11:10] we can’t bring over here and make that experience here? Um, that annoys [01:11:15] me. What else? Nothing. Really.

Payman Langroudi: Become that dentist. Honestly, such an important skill. [01:11:20] Yeah. It is. My wife’s really good at it. Yeah. Painless injections. Yeah. Completely painless. You [01:11:25] have no idea. There’s been an injection until it starts becoming numb.

Henry Totterdell: She is one of the systems that designed for just [01:11:30] straight up.

Payman Langroudi: She puts a lot of a topical for a long time. Yeah. Like a good seven minutes [01:11:35] of topical. I mean, you can only do this privately.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Seven minutes of topical [01:11:40] on a dry mucosa and then very gently goes and then [01:11:45] and amount of time she spends on the plunger. It’s like a long, long, long. You [01:11:50] just don’t feel it. You just don’t feel it at all. That’s good. But but just that one skill, I mean, I guess [01:11:55] she’s gentle or whatever with gentle touch after that. But that one skill she’s has patience [01:12:00] following her around practice to practice to practice.

Henry Totterdell: Makes such a difference.

Payman Langroudi: Bringing families along with them. And [01:12:05] I guess there’s that other sort of empathy side as well of, of, of, you know, when, [01:12:10] when the guy says, I’m scared, reassuring and saying, don’t worry, we do things differently. [01:12:15] It’s a massive practice builder, a massive practice builder.

Henry Totterdell: Just build that set [01:12:20] of repeatable customers.

Payman Langroudi: I had a boss like that too. Um, my God, this [01:12:25] practice was, it was by a long way the most expensive practice in the town. I mean, he was, he was very good. [01:12:30] He was very charming. He was like head of the whatever railroad rotary thing. [01:12:35] Um, and he was cool and funny and all that, but when as he [01:12:40] practised, he always told me, any time you touch the patient, make it one third the amount [01:12:45] of force that you think you should use.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. So easy. Just bang. Yeah. Just [01:12:50] pull your lip here. Yeah, yeah. Your stretches. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’d come out of I’d done a restorative house job where the, [01:12:55] the consultant was saying actually sometimes you have to push hard [01:13:00] to get things right. And it’s true. Right. There are times where you need to push and.

Henry Totterdell: Push a lot [01:13:05] harder than you think you can as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Balance. But I’d come out of that job thinking that’s the technician [01:13:10] I am. I do what it takes. And this guy taught me that what he said. And then I saw [01:13:15] my wife as well and I realised, no, no, no, no, no. Gentle, gentle is like an MSc. [01:13:20] Yeah. It should be.

Henry Totterdell: It should be on that.

Payman Langroudi: It should be on your.

Henry Totterdell: In your. Yeah, [01:13:25] yeah, yeah. I find it interesting. She loves having all their initials after their [01:13:30] name. Yeah, I’ve never really seen that, I guess before, but that’s a very.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s [01:13:35] like a marketing thing.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. I think it would give me more confidence as a patient.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think of what do you [01:13:40] think of the things that some people are unhappy about, things like awards ceremonies and dentistry [01:13:45] and these sort of things. How do you feel about that?

Henry Totterdell: I’ve never been to one, but [01:13:50] like from the out, like looking, looking in from the outside, I guess I quite like the idea. I [01:13:55] think it’s nice to celebrate each other. Nice to sort of stop for a moment, be like, oh, I’m [01:14:00] proud of where I’ve come and I’m proud of where I’m going. I want to show other people and [01:14:05] tell other people about that. I think it helps us like celebrate each other and celebrate the industry. It’s good. I think if it creates [01:14:10] unhealthy, sort of like competitive strategies, it can be a bit poor. There’s that. But, [01:14:15] you know, I think in general I like the idea of it in principle, I think yeah, I think it’s always good to celebrate success. [01:14:20] And you know, if anything it gives us an excuse to get together again. Yeah. And also [01:14:25] like something to help give patients that reassurance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, when someone gets voted best [01:14:30] dentist in Bristol by that process. Yeah. But the actual best dentist in Bristol [01:14:35] hasn’t even.

Henry Totterdell: There is.

Payman Langroudi: Even even entered.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. There is always that risk [01:14:40] with um sort of self nominated. Yeah. Events isn’t there. Do you have to pay to like [01:14:45] become what it’s like the best graduates. You have to pay to be on that.

Payman Langroudi: You pay for the, the awards night. [01:14:50]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But not I don’t think it affects the result.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Okay. So it’s not like you can only [01:14:55] enter if you are going to turn up on the night.

Payman Langroudi: No, we I get I get companies all the time say, do you [01:15:00] want to buy one of these plaques that says you’re the best teeth whitening company in Britain?

Henry Totterdell: I think you’ve gotta be very [01:15:05] careful with this. Like, yeah, I’ve just bought this title. And it’s like, [01:15:10] well, hang on. I think where there’s like real, genuine, um, genuine [01:15:15] nomination and reward or like, uh, consideration of the applicant [01:15:20] and then the outcome is good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I think it’s genuine and I think it improves the practice a lot. [01:15:25] Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: But it gives you a reason to improve as well. I think we all like it when other people. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Don’t like.

Henry Totterdell: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a lot of them don’t like it. I guess the more old school ones.

Henry Totterdell: What are the reasons for that?

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:15:35] I say, the fact that you get nominated, you get called the best dentist.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, um, [01:15:40] you might not be. Yeah. That that gets their goat. Yeah. Um, what about [01:15:45] this? The thing that the top 50.

Henry Totterdell: Top 50. Yeah. Yeah. I remember a lot of people don’t like that. We used [01:15:50] to be on the top 50 list of like fastest growing. I think we sponsored the list. It’s like, well, of course we’re on it. [01:15:55] So little things like that. Yeah. Again, it’s getting the balance right. Like [01:16:00] who nominates I think is probably I think it’s really nice when you have ones where somebody else [01:16:05] has to nominate you. Um, and almost like without you knowing, I think that’s when you get to like the most special, [01:16:10] special reward because then it really feels like you’ve earned it because your peers recognise you as being good. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of.

Henry Totterdell: Course. And I think that’d be like the ultimate reward ceremony, I think for me.

Payman Langroudi: So you look [01:16:20] back on this journey.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s quite, quite a sort of, a journey [01:16:25] of discovery, right? Self-discovery. We [01:16:30] said often you don’t know what being an engineer is going to be like. And all of that. Do [01:16:35] you reflect back on like the your upbringing that, you know, what made [01:16:40] you so confident or confident enough to say, I’m going to do this, then I’m going to stop this [01:16:45] and I’m going to try that. Then I’m going to jump into dentistry. Yeah, it’s a confident guy that does that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:16:50] it’s quite interesting. Um, what about growing up?

Payman Langroudi: Were you always very confident? [01:16:55] Like was there an inflection point?

Henry Totterdell: Wasn’t always super confident like socially and particularly I think. Oh really? Yeah. I [01:17:00] was always like played sport and things. I think if you play sport at school you sort of team sports. Yeah. You sort of get [01:17:05] friends and yeah, it probably saves you. That’s probably a bit of a nerd through school. Um, but [01:17:10] I think, I think probably just support from my parents. Like it was never, oh, well, you’ve made that decision. You [01:17:15] must always stick with it. There was always the. Well, you can change it. Yeah. You can change. You [01:17:20] tried it like that’s, that’s the right thing to do. Like, you know, if you hadn’t [01:17:25] tried it, you’d never known. So you’ve tried it.

Payman Langroudi: So you went to your parents with these decisions and they were supportive.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:17:30] I definitely spoke to my parents about it. Yeah, it’s quite interesting. My mum jumped through a lot of careers when she was growing up. So [01:17:35] I feel like maybe I’ve sort of like just got that like it’s normal, normal to do. Um, so [01:17:40] I felt I was very supportive from that point of view and was always encouraged to be like, just follow what I was interested in. [01:17:45] And there’s always a much bigger focus on, um, do what makes you happy than. [01:17:50] And that’s sort of the biggest or best outcome you can have for life than trying [01:17:55] to focus on something funny.

Payman Langroudi: I think about my Middle Eastern parents when I told them, I want to stop being a dentist and start manufacturing [01:18:00] teeth whitening products that are illegal. At the time, they were illegal. It [01:18:05] was totally different. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: I think, I think depending on what they yeah, [01:18:10] what I was doing, they might, they might draw a line somewhere. But I think if I, yeah, showed that I thought about it and had that and [01:18:15] they challenged me on it. Then it was. Yeah, they’re very supportive. Amazing. I think I [01:18:20] thought I was a bit bonkers. But it’s your journey. You do you, do you like we’ll support you and what you decide, [01:18:25] which I’m very, very lucky to have because I realise a lot of people won’t get that. That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. It’s [01:18:30] been a massive pleasure having you, man.

Henry Totterdell: Thank you so much. It’s been a real honour.

Payman Langroudi: With the questions that we have.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:18:35] sure.

Payman Langroudi: For everyone. Um, fantasy dinner party.

Henry Totterdell: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:18:40] guests.

Henry Totterdell: I was thinking about this. This is a tricky one. Um, I think maybe a classic. [01:18:45] To start off. I’d have someone like Barack Obama. I just think, like, he’s [01:18:50] got a brilliant way. I think of summarising what like a good society [01:18:55] looks like and like bringing people together and always seeing like good and stuff. And he must have some amazing [01:19:00] stories and he always seems really well thought through and really well meaning in what he thinks [01:19:05] through. And I think that’s always a nice way to be. Um, and [01:19:10] then I think to help make those stories a bit funnier and like, I think, I think Brett would [01:19:15] tell them in a really good way, but I think someone like Bob Mortimer, I think he’s one of the funniest comedian. Yeah, the [01:19:20] most naturally funny people that’s ever existed. And like, he does it like he’s [01:19:25] not trying. It just seems like effortless. So I think he like, help turn [01:19:30] those brilliant, interesting stories into like, quite an exceptionally funny event. [01:19:35] Um, and then the final one is maybe a bit of a curveball. I hadn’t really [01:19:40] thought about it before. Um, starting to think about coming here. Um, I think we [01:19:45] all wonder how the pyramids were built. Yeah. And so I bring back. Is it Khufu.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:19:50] architect or whatever?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. The Pharaoh at the time whose tomb is in it and just [01:19:55] learned like, not just what society was like, but like, how did we get to having this 150 million, [01:20:00] 150 metre pyramids?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point.

Henry Totterdell: And, and just I [01:20:05] think I’d answer so many questions for so many people.

Payman Langroudi: I was on different podcast. The guy said, where would you like to have [01:20:10] been flying a wall? Yeah. And I was, you know, classical Iranian, [01:20:15] uh, conspiracy theorist when they decided who was going to kill JFK. Right? But then [01:20:20] but then when I really thought about it was, you know, those events, those global sort of Ice age type [01:20:25] events, like when things start exploding. Yeah, yeah. With the dinosaurs as they’re getting extinct. [01:20:30] Just imagine, like watching that. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You could you imagine just being like, I want to be on the moon when [01:20:35] that happens and just watch from afar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Fly on the moon at that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [01:20:40] You know, you’re watching. You’d be like, wow, is this really happening?

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah. Three [01:20:45] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Henry Totterdell: Pieces of advice. Um, I [01:20:50] would say like smile and say hello to people. I think [01:20:55] just.

Payman Langroudi: Good at that.

Henry Totterdell: Man. Just building connections with people. Like you never know where it’s going to get you. Yeah. For sure. I was [01:21:00] on the train, not today, but two weeks ago coming to London. The guy sat next to me and he was like, oh, you’re working on a Saturday? [01:21:05] I was just typing away. I was like, oh yeah, and I could have just ended it there, but I just got chatting to him. Turns out he’s [01:21:10] the bursar at one of the Oxford colleges, and before we knew it, we had a long conversation, left his contact [01:21:15] details and was like, you know, when when you’re looking Start-Up in practice, just get in touch. And, you know, I [01:21:20] might be interested in investing. So I was like, great, okay. Um, what would be another way?

Payman Langroudi: It’s rare [01:21:25] to have both of those sides locked down, you know, the maths brain and social [01:21:30] brain together. I don’t know.

Henry Totterdell: There’s a stereotype.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Stereotype. Yeah. That’s probably [01:21:35] a.

Henry Totterdell: Third of my engineering degree. You could really see like sort of like mainly [01:21:40] mainly guys as well. Like I think 140 guys, ten girls on the course. And [01:21:45] a lot of us had probably spent a lot too much, too much time gaming and things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And then suddenly you [01:21:50] get the world. I think that’s the joy of uni. You suddenly meet people who are like you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:21:55]

Henry Totterdell: You never had the chance to meet at school. That’s true. Second piece of advice. Um, [01:22:00] like stay curious. I think just always be interested about the world around you and then [01:22:05] like, just don’t stop, like trying to figure out what’s going on and going on and, and figure it out. Um, [01:22:10] just because it, I think you just get enjoyment from understanding things more and more and more.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:22:15] also as a as a I mean, you tell me, but I think as a as a counter point [01:22:20] to that to realise you can affect things. If things don’t [01:22:25] aren’t just the way they are, you could, you can change something.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. 100%.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an important point. Yeah. Because [01:22:30] people are really good at analysing stuff. Yeah. But think that’s it. I can’t I can’t do anything about [01:22:35] any of this. It’s so, so true.

Henry Totterdell: Like and you know, you just have to accept like what, [01:22:40] what do you care about something being done about and what don’t you care? And as long as you know, like which side and [01:22:45] if you care enough about it, go and go and do something. Yeah. And then I think the final piece is, [01:22:50] uh, just say yes to things like to opportunities. Like, especially [01:22:55] when you’re young, like if you’re young and you spend a couple of hours doing something, realise you hate [01:23:00] it. So what, like you’ve learned so much from that opportunity. Um, like coming [01:23:05] along today, like, you know, just by saying hi, like I’ve ended up here talking to you and [01:23:10] who knows where that might lead, you know? Yeah. But like, just say yes to things that like help you explore and [01:23:15] help you do new things, even if it puts you outside your comfort zone. Because soon enough, you won’t feel outside your comfort [01:23:20] zone. You will feel like, oh, cool, I’m doing something. I don’t know what it is, but that’s fine. I’ve done it before. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: Although the opposite advice a lot of people give as well. Yeah, just say no to things.

Henry Totterdell: That are.

Payman Langroudi: Really important. [01:23:30]

Henry Totterdell: As soon as you know that you definitely won’t like something or it’s not for you, like, yeah, be really [01:23:35] clear why, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but like, if you’re a busy guy, if you’re a busy guy and you say yes to everything.

Henry Totterdell: You end up.

Payman Langroudi: With a problem, you end [01:23:40] up with a problem. Yeah. And so like, I don’t know, you hear this a lot with like executives are like, no, no [01:23:45] to say no quickly. Yeah. So it doesn’t take up any further of your time.

Henry Totterdell: It comes with a caveat of like, [01:23:50] no, when you like have the scope to say yes to stuff and.

Payman Langroudi: Like, but you’re absolutely [01:23:55] right at the.

Henry Totterdell: Beginning saying yes to you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely right at the beginning. Absolutely. You know, you have no [01:24:00] idea where each of these interactions could end up.

Henry Totterdell: Exactly. That. You know, a friend says, let’s go and see this. [01:24:05] Go and see it. Like, yeah, yeah, as long as you you’ll have fun. And then you soon learn what you like and don’t. [01:24:10] And then, like you say, don’t overwhelm yourself.

Payman Langroudi: A super, super enjoyable. I’m so happy I asked [01:24:15] you to come on.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been such a treat to come down to London and. Yeah. See you and be on it. Really? [01:24:20] Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks. Thanks for doing that, man. I really enjoyed.

Henry Totterdell: That. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:24:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:24:30] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:24:40] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:24:45] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:24:50] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:24:55]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:25:00] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:25:05] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Ali al-Hassan to the podcast [00:01:00] known as Doctor Ali Smiles. Is that it on socials? [00:01:05] Yeah just doctor Ali yeah doctor it easy.

Ali Al Hassan: Look at socials. You’ve got to keep it easy. Keep it simple.

Payman Langroudi: You are [00:01:10] a master of socials. It’s just it’s nice to have you my buddy. Good to see you. Um Ali’s [00:01:15] a young dentist. She still qualifies young don’t you. Yeah. Young dentist who is, [00:01:20] um, really making wonderful progress from super associate to, uh, [00:01:25] practice owner, um, moving around the country a lot. Um, for [00:01:30] me, maybe the, the world, the world, the world a lot on holidays, you’re [00:01:35] always on holiday.

Ali Al Hassan: Um, that’s, that’s a great thing to talk about. Work life balance. Yeah. That’s a big thing to talk. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: About because, because I was going to say for me, the walking embodiment of work hard, play hard is [00:01:45] this guy. So I want to know how you pull that off as well. So lovely to have you buddy.

Ali Al Hassan: Thank you. [00:01:50] Thank you. Um, you know, I was just saying, you know, we met quite a long time ago, but, um, [00:01:55] when you were, We met a very long time ago, and then it felt like we’d [00:02:00] see each other every few years. And it’s almost like one of those like infinite, you know, like I’m investing [00:02:05] money in stocks. Like now I’m seeing you like every I got out of the Uber and you were there. I [00:02:10] was a little bit creeped out, but no, I’m just kidding. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:15] we met at the BAC, d conference when you were a student.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Fourth year. Yeah. Very long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:02:20] had that with, uh, Simon Child as well, and Richard Field and all these characters. [00:02:25] But, um, you know, you look at [00:02:30] your life from the outside. Yeah, it does look a bit like a lot of fun and everything [00:02:35] good. And you know that. But what are you struggling with?

Ali Al Hassan: Struggling [00:02:40] with? Um, I think spending, there’s a few things actually spending, [00:02:45] spending time with family. Um. Meeting [00:02:50] a lot of people makes it difficult to have meaningful relationships with like [00:02:55] a like, a few people. Oh, yeah. Um, and, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Expand [00:03:00] on that one for me a little bit.

Ali Al Hassan: Because you’ve [00:03:05] got to kind of choose how you spend your time, right? You only get it once. And so in this phase, I’m kind of like travelling [00:03:10] a lot, meeting people, making a lot of new connections inside dentistry, outside of dentistry. [00:03:15] Um, we can talk about this, but I like to travel once a month, so I’ll go somewhere [00:03:20] once a month, every single month, mostly with like a few close friends. But, but [00:03:25] you meet a lot of people and then they all want to do things. And you’ve got to kind of, uh, [00:03:30] start to pick and choose. But then, um, you don’t necessarily have as much time for, [00:03:35] uh, your family or your like OG’s or like your old friends. And then you’re in this [00:03:40] situation where you’re like, how do I delegate my time? What do I actually want to do? And if I [00:03:45] do what I want to do, does that make me a good person or a bad person? Or am I just doing what I want to do? Yeah. Um, [00:03:50] but, uh, I think, uh, there’s [00:03:55] a saying, um, uh, this lady said, uh, Layla Hormozi. Alex Hormozi wife. [00:04:00] Yeah. She said, you can’t have the 50% good without the 50% bad. And that [00:04:05] really resonated with me. I genuinely think like, whatever stage you are in life, whatever, [00:04:10] whatever you’re doing, no matter how successful you are. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:04:15] sacrifice.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. The only way you can have the good is if you have like the, uh, [00:04:20] oftentimes equal amount bad and you’re like, you’re grateful for all the good you have, but you’re also [00:04:25] you, you learn the lessons and you reflect on the bad part. And that’s just part of being a human. And it’s, [00:04:30] and it’s, and you have to accept it. Um, you know, you highs and lows, you know, uh, [00:04:35] peaks and troughs, it kind of all comes together. You just choose where your peaks are and where your troughs are, and then you [00:04:40] kind of live with it.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, like that classic cliche of don’t ponder on either of them [00:04:45] too much. Yeah. You know, because I definitely don’t ponder on the troughs too much. Definitely [00:04:50] not that. Yeah. But also don’t ponder on the peaks too much because they’re all so transient, [00:04:55] you know? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Just just be just be present. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And often, [00:05:00] right at your age, you’re kind of being taught by society who [00:05:05] you are kind of thing. Yeah. And that’s a, that’s a worry because society [00:05:10] teaches in sort of broad strokes without nuance.

Ali Al Hassan: Tries to put you in [00:05:15] a box.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so you end up kind of believing what people say about you. And that can take you [00:05:20] in both directions too far. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: 100%. You know, and dentistry [00:05:25] is very much it’s like a personification of that, right? Especially even people who become dentists, right? [00:05:30] We all kind of envisaged it when we were younger. Yeah. We worried about it, stressed [00:05:35] about it.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about it.

Ali Al Hassan: Did our A-levels. And it’s like everything on your mind. You do the [00:05:40] you do the university, you get the grades and then you’re in dental school and you’re like, it’s going to be easy, but it’s not. And then [00:05:45] dental school is really difficult and everyone has their issues with dental school or whatever, you know. I [00:05:50] had a tutor trying to. I’m sure everyone has this. I feel like everyone has a story like this, but there’s always someone in dental [00:05:55] school who’s trying to make sure you don’t graduate. I feel like I’m sure you had that too. I had that there’s always [00:06:00] someone who’s trying to like gatekeep you and then, um, and then you graduate and you’re like, well, now it’s going to be easy. And [00:06:05] then you’re in the dental world and it’s like, and you follow that path and you’re like, I’m going to be an associate. I’ll start [00:06:10] doing NHS and then I’ll move into private and people will trust me to like pay money to look [00:06:15] after their teeth. And then one day I’ll be a practice owner. And then that’s like the pathway that’s kind of set for you. [00:06:20] Yeah. Um, I’d like to think that I’ve kind of broken out of it [00:06:25] in terms of like, I do a few things outside, but also I really do, um, [00:06:30] I enjoy dentistry, I’m very grateful for it.

Ali Al Hassan: And I’m thankful for my parents for kind of pushing me that way. Um, [00:06:35] I tell people, you know, they’re like, um, why did you choose dentistry? I was like, my dad told [00:06:40] me I could do whatever I want growing up as long as it’s medicine or dentistry. So, um, [00:06:45] So, so so I picked dentistry. Um, [00:06:50] but it is a very, you know, it’s, I as you agree, it’s an amazing career. It gives you a lot [00:06:55] of freedom. You can do so many different things. And, um, you know, in the same token that there [00:07:00] is a pathway, you can obviously branch out and do things at your own pace and kind of do other things. Um, [00:07:05] so, so I’m grateful for that. But you’re totally true general society. They put you in [00:07:10] a box. They want you to be a worker. Um, you know, they don’t want you to be entrepreneurial. They don’t want you to have [00:07:15] your own business. They just want to put you as a cog in the system. Hmrc is taking the tax. [00:07:20] I’m fully on that thing that you need to kind of break out of the get out of the matrix.

Payman Langroudi: At [00:07:25] the same time, the matrix is um, one of the reasons we’re in it is because the matrix [00:07:30] is so clear. Yeah, yeah. You know, the, you know, the whole start your own practice thing. It’s [00:07:35] a brilliant little life, man. It’s a brilliant little life for someone who wants to, you know, [00:07:40] be of service to their community, send their kids to private school, go on a holiday. [00:07:45] You know, it’s a brilliant little life, man. Yeah. Yeah. So the breaking out of that matrix thing that you’re [00:07:50] pointing out. Yeah, yeah. One of the brilliant things about it is that life [00:07:55] can fund you breaking out of the matrix. Exactly. And if you can’t quite break out, you get back to that life, [00:08:00] which is super important. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Or try and juggle the two. Yeah. Be in that weird, like, transient [00:08:05] Schrodinger’s dentistry phase where it’s like, you’re kind of in and you’re kinda out.

Payman Langroudi: So you grew up [00:08:10] in Swindon?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, born in east London. Yeah. Um, and moved to Swindon. [00:08:15] Yeah. When I was like five years old. And then. But I’ve been all over. I went to school in Gloucester Grammar [00:08:20] School in Gloucester and then studied in Cardiff, and then between kind of London [00:08:25] and Swindon and now a little bit in the Midlands.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what were your parents moving [00:08:30] around as well?

Ali Al Hassan: No. So I used to get the train every day. Yeah. My parents, my dad was very much like grammar school. [00:08:35] Um he didn’t, he didn’t know that he kind of emigrated to the UK. And someone just mentioned to him that grammar [00:08:40] schools are good schools, and he just got it in his head. There were no grammar schools in Swindon. So um at [00:08:45] that time there were, there were no like bus transfer services. Now there are like it’s become a whole business. [00:08:50] Um, but I used to from 11, he just like dropped me to the train station, I’d get [00:08:55] on the train to Gloucester, get off the train to Gloucester, get on the 94 bus to the school, [00:09:00] and then I’d get home. So my secondary school days, I would get home every day at 6 p.m., [00:09:05] um, every single day. So which was quite long, but, um, but [00:09:10] you know, like the hardships are what make us what makes us stronger ultimately.

Payman Langroudi: What did your dad [00:09:15] do?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, he was in it. Software engineer became a project manager, whatever [00:09:20] that means. That kind of situation. Um, [00:09:25] he never really enjoyed it. Um, my dad came to this country. He, [00:09:30] uh, he didn’t even really speak English too well, and he got [00:09:35] someone else to fill out his uni application and to the point where even picked the course, he was like, [00:09:40] I don’t care. So my uncle just wrote him down for the same thing that he wanted to do, [00:09:45] and that became my dad’s career. So it’s crazy that that’s literally a true story. Wow. [00:09:50] But he never liked it. He was good at it, but he never liked it. He did well, quite well [00:09:55] for himself. And then, um, but he was like to you guys like go into healthcare. Healthcare is good. And [00:10:00] it’s, I think in Asian families, it’s just see, I’m in Iranian families. I’ve got loads [00:10:05] of Iranian friends that medicine, dentistry. It’s just seen as some, uh, it’s put on a pedestal, [00:10:10] right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s put on a pedestal. But, you know, you got to remember, like, we, we ended up a lot of us running [00:10:15] away from home. Yeah. Suddenly, without, without plans, you know, overnight we’re [00:10:20] going. Yeah. And so in that, what you tell your kid when that’s been [00:10:25] the situation is, is safety. You like, you know. Yeah. And, [00:10:30] um, the doctors and dentists who a lot of our friends were qualified [00:10:35] out here. Yeah. They came straight in and became doctors and dentists here, you know. And that little move [00:10:40] was was. But you’re right, you’re right. I got I didn’t get pushed, but I didn’t know what I wanted. So [00:10:45] they just led me along. Yeah. Yeah. My brother though, on the other hand, he, he loved maths. [00:10:50] Okay. And he said, I want to do maths. And he even said, I want to be an actuary and all this. And I said, no, no, no, be a doctor. [00:10:55] Yeah. And he still pissed off about that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they did kind [00:11:00] of force him. Mhm. So Cardiff best [00:11:05] university in the world.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Tell me, tell me like, how did you, like, get on? Which which student [00:11:10] were you? Um.

Ali Al Hassan: I was, um, I [00:11:15] was very conservative in university. I was, yeah, I was football team. I played for [00:11:20] the football team. I played video games in my room, um, watched films with the boys, I soc [00:11:25] Islamic society. Um, and, uh, yeah, I had a great time. Like, [00:11:30] you know, we’d watch movies on Sundays, play, you know, a little bit of Call of Duty, FIFA and, [00:11:35] um, I played a lot of football, so I was playing for like the the local Football League seven [00:11:40] a side. You know, they used to have the seven a sides and all of that. I was playing football like 3 or 4 times a week. Um [00:11:45] didn’t really get involved too much with the social side of university. Um, and [00:11:50] uh, yeah, it was kind of like focussed on, uh, my [00:11:55] studies and work. Cardiff was a nice uni. Great people, great food.

Payman Langroudi: You take to it.

Ali Al Hassan: Well, city [00:12:00] road, um, yeah, I think the first year was kind of hard. Uh, well, like the beginning of the first [00:12:05] year, you’re kind of like moving away. And I make this joke. You’re in a different country, even though it’s like just over the [00:12:10] just over the bridge. Um, they used to have the toll, remember? Yeah, yeah. And then now it’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: Is it. [00:12:15]

Ali Al Hassan: Gone? Yeah. It’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I’ve driven there for years. Like really. I take the train.

Ali Al Hassan: Ah, okay. It’s [00:12:20] it’s, yeah, it’s not been, it’s still kind of surreal, but yeah, it’s not been there for even I’ve not been for a while. [00:12:25] Um, but they eventually I think paid it off and then that’s it. They got rid of it. Great.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:12:30] I love the people in South Wales, man. I really love the people. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Just happy um, [00:12:35] Independent. Hard working. Yeah. Um. Just great. If I had my time in university, I [00:12:40] definitely would have explored and did things more. But I think I was very much in terms of like, at that [00:12:45] point I was in survival mode. I need to get my degree. Um, I need to like [00:12:50] work and have a little bit of enjoyment. But I used to love my video games. I’ve always been a video game advocate. [00:12:55] I play video games now. Yeah, maybe like 2 or 3 times a week, whenever I can, whenever. [00:13:00]

Payman Langroudi: I can find someone to play with, I play. Yeah, I don’t like one play. I like two.

Ali Al Hassan: Yes, I play online, but online, [00:13:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: With.

Ali Al Hassan: The not so it can just be me, but I’m playing with randoms.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite game?

Ali Al Hassan: Um, used [00:13:10] to be kind of the first person shooters like Call of Duty. Um, and then over uni I used to play [00:13:15] Destiny. Um, it was a game by have you remember Halo. Yeah. But by Xbox. [00:13:20] So they made another game called Destiny. I used to, I used to smash that game. [00:13:25] Um, I’ve got a fun. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a first person shooter. So the first year that that [00:13:30] game came out, you can um type in your login on some third party website, and it tells you [00:13:35] how much time you played. Like cumulatively in the first year that game came out. I [00:13:40] played that game for, um, one month in two days. So [00:13:45] in a 12 month, every, every, every 12 hours [00:13:50] of my life in a year, I was on that game for an hour and a little bit. That’s [00:13:55] genuinely they were like neighbours, noise complaints. [00:14:00] There was like, um, it was crazy. Honestly, that was like my, for me that was breaking [00:14:05] out. Like to be able to just play all night when I was, um, when I had like assisting in university, [00:14:10] if I was assisting the next day, you, you do need to be mentally there, but you don’t really need to be mentally [00:14:15] there. Like, you know, you don’t need your faculties to be amazing. I just remember I just, I’d always be, I just pushed the edges so [00:14:20] I would just play all night, go in, function, just sleep in the day, whatever. Play football [00:14:25] later. Assisting day was so unhealthy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: That was me. Like I’ve [00:14:30] always been the person to test my sleep a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Me too. Me too. My game was football, but [00:14:35] not FIFA Pro Evo Pro Evo. If you’re aware with the fake names. Yeah, I was that guy. Yeah. [00:14:40]

Ali Al Hassan: It wasn’t Ronaldo. It was Ronaldo.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:14:45] right.

Ali Al Hassan: Let’s play in the Champions League.

Payman Langroudi: So when [00:14:50] do you remember turning into this sits before me. Um when was [00:14:55] the inflection point? Like were you always always super hard working. I [00:15:00] was always playing hard. I guess play hard to you was computer games back then. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [00:15:05] Um, I think a lot of it was work hard. And then, um, when you start [00:15:10] kind of seeing, um, I think when you, I, [00:15:15] I’m not trying to big myself up, I’m just asking your question, but it’s like when you, um, [00:15:20] start doing cool things for the first time, let’s say, you know, whatever it may be, it kind of [00:15:25] just opens the door and I’m that person where I will not just like, you know, dip my toes [00:15:30] in, I would sort of jump in the ocean of like new experiences. Um, so [00:15:35] I think I was set up very well. Um, I [00:15:40] was, um, I talk about this actually a lot, but the, the sort of the, [00:15:45] the dopamine curve is, um, now it’s kind of a little bit fried, but [00:15:50] I was held down in the dopamine curve in my life very, very well. And I [00:15:55] thank my parents for that. There wasn’t like, uh, you know, I was lucky to be in a generation where we [00:16:00] didn’t have phones or anything like that growing up. So like where you live, you know, you go out and [00:16:05] you just meet people. You’re lucky to not have phones. So you have so at that early stage, [00:16:10] your dopamine compared to people right now was very low. The amount of stimulation you’re getting all the time was very low. [00:16:15] Um, I went to, um, so I had a normal kind of, um, [00:16:20] a secondary school experience university as well.

Ali Al Hassan: I was, I was kind of, I kept [00:16:25] away from a lot of stuff. Um, Um, and, uh, just was kind of [00:16:30] sports movies, video games, and then kind of uni. So like not the craziest university [00:16:35] experience. And then while working, I actually moved back home. Um, initially I was just [00:16:40] in Swindon probably for like the first three, four years and there’s nothing to do in Swindon. So I [00:16:45] was literally just working all my, my creative outlet was just dentistry. It [00:16:50] was like, um, I went through the phases like the rubber dam fam phase [00:16:55] and taking posterior pictures of like rubber dam and getting like rubber dam obsession, [00:17:00] getting latex, you know, fetishes. And then, um, and [00:17:05] to then kind of doing more like anterior dentistry, um, then kind [00:17:10] of starting to like zone my diary, uh, learning the hacks and the tricks, you know, like [00:17:15] learning scripts, scripting, um, learning more about sales, getting interested [00:17:20] in that side. I, I think I really got deep into the associate side of dentistry [00:17:25] and there was kind of a transformation. So I do a I’ve done one talk on this, but [00:17:30] I’ve got it stored on my laptop. But it’s like becoming going from like associate to a super associate. [00:17:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Um, that’s, that’s a super interesting subject. Yeah. Let’s talk about it in [00:17:40] detail, man, because I know a few super associates here. Yeah. Do you know Matty up in [00:17:45] Liverpool? Yeah, I know a few. I know a few. Yeah. Um and the number [00:17:50] one for for the practice. It’s amazing. Yeah. [00:17:55] Yeah. Number two for the associate. It’s amazing because associate was the best job in the world. [00:18:00] Really? Yeah. As long as you’ve got clinical freedom. Yeah. As soon as you got like, no [00:18:05] one’s telling you what you have to do and to the patient, you can do what you want with the patient. Yeah. And then you [00:18:10] don’t have to worry about any of the running of the place. 9 to 5 good earnings. Yeah. Um [00:18:15] doing.

Ali Al Hassan: And if they’re really good they let you do your own systems. Yeah. I can make my own spreadsheets and [00:18:20] people just go along with them. Um, if.

Payman Langroudi: They.

Ali Al Hassan: Trust you, if the.

Payman Langroudi: Terms because [00:18:25] of it. Yeah. So let’s talk about that. What are the cornerstones? What’s what’s what’s the difference between a associate [00:18:30] and a super associate.

Ali Al Hassan: So if you’re, um, if you’re I mean, if we so [00:18:35] if we just kind of talk through it, if you’re a normal associate, right, you’re, um, you’re think about a lot [00:18:40] of the associates these days, right? When they speak to you, they’re expecting the practice to bring you patients. Um, [00:18:45] there as, as, as a, as a reflection of that, the [00:18:50] practice is going to take bigger percentage. Um, your fees are tied [00:18:55] to the practice. You’re, you’re basically, I think an easy [00:19:00] way now that I’m saying it is like you’re kind of employed. Yeah, you’re in a system, you have to follow that [00:19:05] system. Uh, that’s what you do. Uh, the good news is, is you don’t have to be the [00:19:10] one benefit, which personally, I believe is not a benefit. But some people would say it’s a benefit is you don’t [00:19:15] have to be proactive. You’re just there. You turn up, you do the dentistry, you [00:19:20] get paid, you go home. There’s absolutely nothing else that you need to worry about. Yeah. Um, [00:19:25] so your fees are set by the practice. Your. And from a practice ownership point [00:19:30] of view, that’s you. That’s a good thing to have as well. Like you’d love to have an associate like that. Also [00:19:35] who fits into your brand follows everything to the letter. If you could clone that person, you know, a hundred [00:19:40] times, that’d be great too. Sure. Um, and so at that point, you’re an associate, your earnings [00:19:45] are definitely going to be lower. Um, what [00:19:50] do you think the average associate earns? Let’s talk about money. What do you think the average associate earns in the UK? Because [00:19:55] when you.

Payman Langroudi: Look funny.

Ali Al Hassan: When you look online there’s it’s always like 60 to 80 K. [00:20:00] Do you do you believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Because average is a funny measure. Uh, so [00:20:05] let’s say median.

Ali Al Hassan: Let’s talk about not hospital, not salaried. So we’re talking about, um, [00:20:10] we’re excluding, we’re excluding. Um, let me know if we’re going on a tangent.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I want to go on [00:20:15] tangent.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Okay. Great. So um, if we take take away like, you know, uh, know, salaried [00:20:20] positions, like all the hospital stuff, all of that, you know, DCT, [00:20:25] DFT, all that stuff. And, um, for example, community, let’s just talk about in your, in a [00:20:30] dental practice, like a normal traditional dental practice, you’re working your sole trader, limited company, whatever [00:20:35] you are. What would you say? What do you think? Obviously, you’ve probably got average though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny, [00:20:40] I’d say it’s very low. I’d say it is in the eight area. [00:20:45]

Ali Al Hassan: You think it’s around there. So like if you’re working five days a week, uh, or you’re working [00:20:50] like full time over the month, you’re taking home about six to 7KA month, something [00:20:55] like that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s [00:21:00] higher?

Ali Al Hassan: So. Yeah. I think maybe it’s marginally higher. [00:21:05] I would say, um, because remember the outliers are dragging it up.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:21:10] lots of people earning less than that though. Like true. True. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: But a lot of them are part [00:21:15] time. We’ve got to like pro rata it for like, I think.

Payman Langroudi: No, but this.

Ali Al Hassan: Is another gripe I have. Like, people just don’t want [00:21:20] to work anymore. So it’s like, um, but, but if we, if we stick to this topic [00:21:25] first, the, um, uh, the reason I brought that up was because again, [00:21:30] that’s like where you are. Let’s just say, I don’t think I’m far off that. I think I’m very close to that, maybe [00:21:35] a little bit higher. Um, but that’s kind of what you’re expecting to earn, which is still a great income. [00:21:40] Yeah. Um, very lucky, very fortunate. Um, you know, to be in this country in [00:21:45] general, personally, I think as a whole, but then obviously to be, to be, you know, earning well above average. Um, [00:21:50] that’s the, that’s, that’s kind of the associate bar and that’s, [00:21:55] that’s, uh, what you get. Like I say, the only, the only benefit I think you get is [00:22:00] the fact that you don’t need to be proactive. Personally, though, I think that’s a negative [00:22:05] as a person. I think all people should strive to be more proactive. And I think there’s, um, if [00:22:10] you kind of, uh, just follow all your life, um, you, You. [00:22:15] You’re kind of. There’s a lot of happiness that you’ll never [00:22:20] see. But then at the same time, if you never see it, does it even count? Like I think about that stuff too.

Ali Al Hassan: Um, [00:22:25] you know, so it’s interesting. There’s some people, uh, I’ve got, I’ve got a cousin, he’s [00:22:30] an optometrist and he’s literally just been through the pathway works at Specsavers [00:22:35] next door to where he lived, works a 9 to 5 takes, you know, home, you know, [00:22:40] decent money, a little bit less than what an associate would earn. Goes home every day, never goes on holiday. And he’s the [00:22:45] most, uh, he’s, he’s, he’s just as happy as anyone else. And that’s like what he’s chosen. [00:22:50] So to be honest, I’ve, I think when I say it’s a negative to not have [00:22:55] to be proactive, I think I’m saying that now that I’m thinking about it and reflecting on it, that’s how it would be [00:23:00] for me. But for some people, it’s amazing and like, and that’s just what they want. [00:23:05] But but everyone’s different. Yeah, exactly. So so that’s the associate way. Now moving [00:23:10] on to like being a super associate, it just flips everything. Right? So Your. And [00:23:15] I think the the first thing that has to be said is that you’re bringing in the patients. [00:23:20] The patients are coming to see you. Um, if the patients are coming to see you, uh, [00:23:25] instead of the practice having the agency, you you are bringing in the [00:23:30] patients, you have the agency over those patients.

Ali Al Hassan: So you’re setting your fees [00:23:35] now based on what you think you are worth. Um, you’re, uh, bringing [00:23:40] money into the practice rather than the practice bringing money in. [00:23:45] And you’re kind of servicing that money by the practice, bringing in the patients, you’re bringing them in. So you’re [00:23:50] doing the practice more of a favour in that way in a direct like financial way. Um, [00:23:55] as a result of that, you can negotiate a higher percentage because the [00:24:00] practice has to make a decision versus, you know, do I want 45 or 40% [00:24:05] of this versus 60% of like five times less than this, which obviously, [00:24:10] you know, more money is just more money. Um, if it works, you know, in that case for the brand [00:24:15] and, um, you have, you have much more freedom and, uh, [00:24:20] you’re, you have, you have the agency, you’re being proactive. So you’re doing campaigns yourself, [00:24:25] you’re speaking to patients, you’re out there with social media or your works just amazing. And [00:24:30] you don’t need social media and people are coming in just from referrals. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And all of those [00:24:35] things, right? Yeah. Not one of those, all of those things.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: And so you do, obviously [00:24:40] you do social media. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So for me, the social media thing for me is what kind of took off, [00:24:45] took it off. Yeah. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You do, but do you do paid campaigns as well.

Ali Al Hassan: No, no [00:24:50] no, no, but, um, I, um, so I’m uh, so as if you’re a [00:24:55] super associate or in my case, I’m very lucky. My practice owners have supported me the whole way. [00:25:00] But if I want to do a campaign, the practice just pays for it and does it for me. Yeah. [00:25:05] And it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I keep you on.

Ali Al Hassan: Site and they take no cut. Sorry. They they pay for [00:25:10] the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, pay for the whole thing.

Ali Al Hassan: They pay for the whole thing. So I don’t see any side of that. But I’m like, let’s do an open day here, here. [00:25:15] Um, but there’s a story behind that though. So we, we run an Invisalign, for [00:25:20] example, open day model, uh, in Swindon. Um, and we will get, uh, I did a post [00:25:25] on, um, on that, uh, Dental advertising page, but in three days we’ll [00:25:30] get like 50 patients to come in and like, uh, 8 or 9 out of ten of them will pretty much [00:25:35] go ahead. So we do like a lot of Invisalign cases. Um, and, uh. [00:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: What, what do you say about yourself and that? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So, so, so in that [00:25:45] case, what I’m saying is, um, uh, so I’m working in this practice and I was like, look, we need to start doing [00:25:50] paid ads. Paid ads is like the thing to do at this time. I’m still doing like Udas. [00:25:55] Um, but I’ve just started doing Invisalign and my practice owners were like a bit iffy about it. [00:26:00] This is like right at the start, this is we’re talking like 2018. So yeah, you know, seven, eight years ago. [00:26:05] Um, and to be honest, they made a really fair offer. They were like, look, I was like, it’s going to [00:26:10] pay itself back. All right, Ali, you pay for this one. Just do it. [00:26:15] We’ll we don’t really understand how this works. This ignite growth marketing agency. Shut [00:26:20] up. Derek. Um, we, we, we don’t really understand [00:26:25] this, but but we’re open to it and we want to kind of move into the new age. You do it, [00:26:30] you pay for it. If you make the money back, we’ll reimburse you. So I fronted the money actually, for [00:26:35] the first Invisalign open day, I paid ignite directly myself their fee as an associate, [00:26:40] um, who wasn’t earning a lot. Like I said, I was just doing like 000 days in a bit of private on the side. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, this is kind of how it goes kicking off.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So and this was at that time and I [00:26:50] with so many things, it’s about timing as well. This was kind of right before that big boom 2018, [00:26:55] right before, I think right before Covid. And then there was the whole kind of Covid boom and you rode that wave. [00:27:00] But, um, so not to digress, I paid for the open day, did the open day, we got like [00:27:05] six patients. Um, But that was still seen by me at that time as a wild [00:27:10] success. The things I did then I don’t do. We’ve iterated massively and if I was to look at myself [00:27:15] then I was like, you, you. You didn’t take deposits or like more than half the people didn’t turn [00:27:20] up. You didn’t really know what to say. I’d just done the Invisalign course myself and done like an ortho [00:27:25] course. So I wasn’t super. I didn’t have the hundreds or, uh, cases under my belt [00:27:30] to, to have the experience either. Um, got six patients, I think I’ve [00:27:35] paid out about just under £3,000 for everything. Like the, the [00:27:40] fee, the ads at that time, ads were a lot cheaper. A lot of practices weren’t even [00:27:45] on that marketing trend. And then, um, the practice owners saw that and then they paid me [00:27:50] back in kind of the rest was history. And then we started doing so much Invisalign in the southwest. [00:27:55] Um, we’ve kind of become known there. So in my area, um, if you search for Invisalign, [00:28:00] basically I’ll come up, um, in my, in my local town kind of a surrounding as [00:28:05] top. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you do differently now? So before you were buying some ads. Yeah. [00:28:10] What do you do differently now that so.

Ali Al Hassan: So now the practice just does it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I, they buy ads.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [00:28:15] yeah. They literally so they’ll do, they’ll do the open day model. Um, they’ll do Invisalign open day every quarter. [00:28:20] Yeah. Um, and then there’s, but there’s patients coming in as drips and drabs through social media, whatever. [00:28:25] So, so, so that side happened, um, at the same time, I, I was very lucky when [00:28:30] I got out of university, my trainer made me take photos of everything and I used to hate it. Um, [00:28:35] and he had a clinical camera and this is my vto, my DFT. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you do that?

Ali Al Hassan: Um, in [00:28:40] Cwmbran. Oh really? Yeah. So in East Wales, where did you do yours in Kent. In [00:28:45] Kent. Okay, fine. So I was East Wales. There’s a whole like East Wales family anyway, but um from that [00:28:50] I just met, I was like, okay, I’ll make an Instagram, I’m taking pictures. And um, that kind of hit me. That was [00:28:55] when the Dental Instagram boom kind of happened as well. Yeah. Again, catching it very [00:29:00] early on. And I would post, uh, three times a week for three years. I [00:29:05] didn’t get a single patient. On the fourth year, I remember I got my first patient from Instagram [00:29:10] who wanted to see me just thinking, wow, this patient’s come on social media. [00:29:15] They’ve seen what I do. And this was a very new concept back then for me at least. [00:29:20] And I was like, this person actually just wants to come in and see me. They’ve not walked past the practice or come in like a normal [00:29:25] patient. They’ve not come in through the practice. They just want to see me because they’ve seen my pictures. And [00:29:30] by the fifth year, um, every single patient, 99% [00:29:35] is coming through Instagram DMs. Um, which is also kind of word [00:29:40] of mouth at this point. Now everyone just kind of like if someone recommends me in Swindon, if someone’s [00:29:45] on a night out and they see teeth and they’re like, oh, you should come to Doctor Ali. He does everyone’s teeth in Swindon. They’ll [00:29:50] be like, well, how do I contact him? They’ll give the Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not, let’s get into let’s get into the mindset of [00:29:55] the guy who sees that maybe dentistry on Instagram [00:30:00] might be a thing to do. Yeah. Are you the kind of guy who then delves deep into how [00:30:05] does one succeed on on Instagram? Get yourself educated. Or did you. Or are you [00:30:10] the kind of guy who calls up the person you know, who’s closest to that and get some advice on it? Or [00:30:15] are you the kind of guy who just feels your way around and plays it by ear?

Ali Al Hassan: Because I definitely [00:30:20] felt my way around and played it by ear. But what I would say now is for social media, um, [00:30:25] three things you need to be really good [00:30:30] at what you do. You know, ultimately, if you’re.

Payman Langroudi: You mean the actual thing?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. The actual thing. Yeah. The [00:30:35] actual thing you need to be good at. Because if you’re not, that’s never gonna, it’s never gonna translate. Even [00:30:40] if people come in, they’re not gonna be.

Payman Langroudi: In the wrong place.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Exactly. Right. So, you know, if you have amazing social media and you [00:30:45] do concrete slabs, but they look horrible. Yeah. Um, it’s not going to work. So that’s the number [00:30:50] one foundational thing is actually be really confident, get the hours under your belt. They say what 10,000 [00:30:55] hours and you can be, you know, 90% of people at anything get the 10,000 hours in [00:31:00] and be really confident at what you actually want people to see you for. Um, second thing then is, [00:31:05] um, be, uh, obviously be good at photography, um, and [00:31:10] media. So, so that’s like, for me, it was just using a camera and then slowly over time, it’s like making videos and [00:31:15] stuff like that. Um, you need to have proof. Uh, proof is very, very [00:31:20] important. Social proof, uh, proof as in, um, you know, I’ve [00:31:25] won awards. That’s proof to a patient. Um, I’ve done thousands of smiles. Scroll down. You can [00:31:30] see them. That’s proof. Um, which, which, which I’ve liked I, I like teeth like that. Therefore [00:31:35] I want to see this person. Um, you could be amazing at your job, have just started an account, [00:31:40] not really showing much. Someone thinks your work looks amazing now, [00:31:45] but there’s not proof. There’s not like years and years of posts. You’ve been doing it for a long period of time. Um, [00:31:50] so, so you need to have, uh, the actual proof. And then finally, uh, the frequency, [00:31:55] right? You need to be posting, um, as much as you can. So I [00:32:00] used to post three times a week and I used to think that’s a lot. Right now I’m posting, [00:32:05] uh, on all.

Payman Langroudi: Three times a.

Ali Al Hassan: Day on all. So you say three times a [00:32:10] day, I’m three times I’m doing, um, one short form video every single day on [00:32:15] TikTok, Instagram and YouTube shorts. So that’s three.

Payman Langroudi: The same one, right?

Ali Al Hassan: The [00:32:20] same one, but it’s going to three different channels. Um, I’m then posting my stories, [00:32:25] which is maybe 3 or 4 a day. Um, and then I’ll also be on top of that, doing three actual [00:32:30] posts three times a week. And essentially in a week, I’m probably sending out about [00:32:35] 20 to 30 pieces of content. Um, and that’s again, from like a business [00:32:40] mentor that I looked at online who was, who’s, um, some of these big business, you know, like, yeah, [00:32:45] like, or yeah. And, or like these big advertising agencies, they’re making about two, [00:32:50] 300 pieces of media content every single day. So it really opens your eyes [00:32:55] to kind of to what’s possible. And ultimately.

Payman Langroudi: And now with AI. Yeah, [00:33:00] I mean, you can, you can say, hey, for my business, I think, uh, this, this [00:33:05] girl with blonde hair would be good, but then you can throw out 300 different [00:33:10] avatars and find out which one of those there’s.

Ali Al Hassan: A person for.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone that’s really working, right? [00:33:15]

Ali Al Hassan: Girl or.

Payman Langroudi: Guy? Yeah. Yeah. But it’s what’s interesting to me. Is that okay, you [00:33:20] say all of that, but I would say the main sort of gift [00:33:25] that you might have had that made this successful was tenacity. [00:33:30] Well, one of the main tenacity. Yeah, because there’s loads of people, [00:33:35] loads of people. If they post three times a week for even three [00:33:40] months. Yeah. And they’re not getting engagement. They’re just either out of shame or laziness [00:33:45] or whatever will just give up. But you, you went on for three years. [00:33:50] Yeah. That that tenacity point number one, Um, super important.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Even [00:33:55] then, though, I wouldn’t say tenacity, I think I was, I enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you can only [00:34:00] do it that long for that stretch of time if it’s fun. So I enjoyed taking the pictures. [00:34:05] I enjoyed posting online, seeing other. I was that sad person who I actually really enjoyed [00:34:10] posting. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think over how did you get over the worry that some dentist [00:34:15] is going to judge you?

Ali Al Hassan: I used to get, you know, in the early days I’ve still got. I probably can’t dig them out now [00:34:20] because it’s so late, but I used to get dentists from like UK and overseas messaging me and [00:34:25] um, look, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not. Yeah. Like, like, [00:34:30] no.

Payman Langroudi: You shouldn’t, I don’t even mind that.

Ali Al Hassan: You shouldn’t be posting this. Your cavity design is not correct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:35] I don’t even mind that in public.

Ali Al Hassan: That’s that’s not that’s not good to your patient. I’m like [00:34:40] who that’s crazy. Like how like who has who, who knows [00:34:45] people like that. Like, how do people like this actually exist? Like it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. They do exist. And [00:34:50] in dentistry, you can sort of get away with it because it’s kind of I’m doing this for the patients for the [00:34:55] betterment of the world. Um, but I saw one where it was the footballer, you, you [00:35:00] put one thing on. Yeah. And almost the first comment is some guy saying where’s the rubber [00:35:05] dam. Yeah. And um and then I remember that.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:35:10] it was a brilliant post like it was remember this guy?

Ali Al Hassan: And yeah, the goal.

Payman Langroudi: The goal [00:35:15] going.

Ali Al Hassan: Into the Lanzini West Ham. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it was a brilliant post. It was really well done post. [00:35:20] And the first guy was some guy who said where’s the rubber dam? And I noticed you engaged with [00:35:25] it. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a funny one because number one, it’s a bit rude of him [00:35:30] on a, on a, on a, on a B to C kind of post to kind of do that to you in front [00:35:35] of the world or whatever. But the problem is replying to him is what makes it a thing [00:35:40] because, you know, but, but I understand why you did it because you don’t want to like, say you did something wrong. [00:35:45]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but then initially you’re and you don’t have the confidence [00:35:50] I have now. And remember, proof is outward. It’s great to patients, but proof [00:35:55] is you are as a person, right? As we’ve got older, we’ve done things more. We believe in our proof [00:36:00] ourselves. So. And the more you believe in your own proof on a certain thing, the less other people’s opinions [00:36:05] and words and things matter. But in those early days, you know, when someone who’s much more [00:36:10] senior than me is writing me an essay about cavity prep, I’m thinking, am I in the right profession? Like, [00:36:15] what’s going on? How do I block it out? I’m thinking about that at night. Um, you know, that’s why [00:36:20] I was like, I’m moving to anterior dentistry now. I’m just kidding. But, um, that kind of happened on [00:36:25] its own, but but 100%, you know, you’ve got to be, you’ve got to have a little bit of a thick skin. Um, [00:36:30] but that comes over time.

Payman Langroudi: Look, on our composite course, we ask who’s got a dental account? [00:36:35] Simple. Who’s got a dental account?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Mini smile makeover. Yeah, yeah. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: And they say, um, two thirds of the room don’t have one. Yeah, yeah. Then we say, [00:36:45] okay, why not? Why not? And it comes down to I’m worried about what other dentists will think [00:36:50] about it. I haven’t got time. Yeah, I’ve got time. Or there’s [00:36:55] just like, I just don’t want to be that dentist. Right? But okay, you don’t want to be that dentist.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s [00:37:00] not that dentist. It’s your shop front. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have a physical shop front? Yes. If [00:37:05] you don’t have a digital shop front, you’re missing. Probably. It used to be half the traffic. Now [00:37:10] it’s like most of the traffic. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um so so but on the point of being worried about what [00:37:15] others think about you, you, you had that and you just went through it.

Ali Al Hassan: You, the only [00:37:20] thing that that can, uh, you need to outwork your self doubt.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [00:37:25]

Ali Al Hassan: If you don’t, once you’ve outworked, you need to work to a point where there is no self doubt anymore, [00:37:30] where you’ve done the thing so many times and you’ve seen it come back and you’ve stayed in [00:37:35] the same place, I’m at the same practice. Uh, most of my clinical [00:37:40] time is at the same practice that I started straight out of the same place. [00:37:45] Not not left. I’ve been there eight years now, still doing three days a week there. Um. [00:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Because you see your own errors as well.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. And that’s the proof. That’s the so you see what works, what doesn’t [00:37:55] work when, when you have that surety kind of yourself, then other people’s opinions [00:38:00] really, really don’t matter. You’re not even worried about them. Now I do posts and I don’t even like [00:38:05] I like to.

Payman Langroudi: Read the comments.

Ali Al Hassan: I reply to them, but just robotically in terms of for engagement. [00:38:10] Yeah, you know, it’s Instagram likes it if you reply to messages and stuff, but ultimately it’s just there to get [00:38:15] patients right. I’m not trying to some people probably post their stuff to like show off to other dentists [00:38:20] as well.

Payman Langroudi: They want to set a course for me.

Ali Al Hassan: I’m very robotic about it. I’m like, I’m getting X [00:38:25] media bits out a day. Um, patient leads are coming through and, and I’m getting it out and [00:38:30] I’m try and systemise it as best I can. Um, but, uh, do the thing. [00:38:35] Don’t worry. And that applies to that’s such a big, um, piece of life advice for [00:38:40] anyone in any situation is so many people are held back by two things. One is [00:38:45] that other people’s opinions. Um, and secondly, limiting beliefs that, [00:38:50] you know, this isn’t possible. Um, you know, uh, that’s, [00:38:55] that’s why these coaches do so well is they, they break through, um, you know, [00:39:00] these, these kind of limiting beliefs. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the work itself, what [00:39:05] do you, what do you do? What don’t you do?

Ali Al Hassan: So 90%, um, [00:39:10] Invisalign and composite, 80% Invisalign composite, a little [00:39:15] bit of porcelain, 70% Invisalign composite 20% like porcelain, indirect. [00:39:20] Um, and then 10%, just all sorts of general. But I don’t do any endo anymore [00:39:25] except for family and friends. Yeah. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Fillings, [00:39:30] not much.

Ali Al Hassan: If someone needs one, I’ll just do it. Or if it’s a patient I’ve done cosmetic work for [00:39:35] and they need one. I’ll do it and I don’t mind it, I enjoy it, I’m happy to do it. Um, but I’m [00:39:40] a big believer in niching down. It’s quite you know, it’s pretty common knowledge. But [00:39:45] if you want to be amazing at one thing, if you want people to see you for something, you need to be amazing at that [00:39:50] thing. How are you amazing at that thing? You’re sacrificing other things to give yourself more [00:39:55] time to do that thing. So you can build X amount of proof over time. So people are going to see you. [00:40:00] So I’ve done, you know, relative to myself, loads of ortho now, loads [00:40:05] of composite. I can see what works, what doesn’t work, a lot of indirect smile makeovers, that kind of [00:40:10] thing. I can I know how to get a patient who wants a better smile [00:40:15] to get a better smile, leave, and have that for a substantial amount of time where they’re happy, [00:40:20] they’re happy to obviously pay money and their life’s like improved as a result. Uh, [00:40:25] and that just kind of snowballs. Um, and I just, I’m a big believer in just do [00:40:30] the same thing for an inordinate, for an inordinate amount of time with [00:40:35] no, like immediate reward, but then kind of just let it compound compound compound, compound [00:40:40] compound to like you’re just, you know, you’re the person at that thing. Um, or [00:40:45] one or, or 1 or 2 things. If they’re kind of like complimentary whitening goes along with that as well. So, you know, we’re [00:40:50] doing whitening for all of our, um.

Payman Langroudi: Ortho, as Kunal would say, a, b, c [00:40:55] yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, a lot of a, b, c. So I met a funny little sidekick. I met Kunal, one of [00:41:00] my closest friends in dentistry, uh, well, close to my, one of my closest friends, um, [00:41:05] at mini smile makeover.

Payman Langroudi: Know.

Ali Al Hassan: When I went there. Yeah, I went to mini spa.

Payman Langroudi: He was teaching. [00:41:10]

Ali Al Hassan: So I went to, I had my first full arch, like 8 [00:41:15] or 10 teeth composite case ever shitting bricks. I was like, um, you know, [00:41:20] I’ve done single tooth. I’ve, you know, because you evolve, right? I feel like everyone goes through this phase. You go from like posteriors. [00:41:25] Great. Because it’s that safety. If it looks shit, no one’s going to see it. You don’t need to worry about [00:41:30] it. And then I kind of, I got deep into that whole rubber dam family movement. [00:41:35] Remember that? Where like posterior composites and like the long mirrors and patients like, why [00:41:40] are you like just spending half of my appointment taking pictures and but I really [00:41:45] enjoyed that side. I’ve always enjoyed the media pictures. Then you start doing like a front filling and a patient’s like, well, actually, [00:41:50] you know, that’s amazing. Like, I know this is NHS, but I can’t even tell there’s a filling in that front tooth. [00:41:55] Um, and then you, you might build up like a whole tooth. Um, and then you might do [00:42:00] 2 or 3 teeth. And so this was at that point where I was at my first, like, we’re doing a set of teeth on a young [00:42:05] lady who wants to look better. She’s a good looking girl that’s on you. And I actually had my, the [00:42:10] course was, I believe, on a Saturday and I had the patient in on Monday. [00:42:15] So I was as as they say, as [00:42:20] they say in East London, man’s was prepped. Um, 8 or 10. It was like a.

Payman Langroudi: 8 [00:42:25] to 10 for your first.

Ali Al Hassan: Time. Yeah. I remember her name. Um, she’s, she works in the local estate [00:42:30] agents. I still and I still see her, by the way, every day. But, um, how did it go on my way to lunch? Yeah. [00:42:35] So I went to a mini spa makeover, um, practised on the set of teeth. And [00:42:40] to this day, I still people like if I want to just do a composite course for like smile makeovers. [00:42:45] That was the one that I went on. So I tell a mini spa makeover. Depeche was their amazing teacher. Um, [00:42:50] you were there. Um, did we party? I remember a few. [00:42:55] A few of your lines are coming out. You know, I don’t know if I want to. Um.

Payman Langroudi: We did, we didn’t we.

Ali Al Hassan: No, [00:43:00] no no no, not at that time.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Covid?

Ali Al Hassan: I didn’t even know what a party was [00:43:05] at that time. No I was not that. Yeah. That that’s that’s pre that’s that’s pre Ali [00:43:10] not post Ali.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So because I’m building that proof that you need everything in its [00:43:15] time right. Yeah. So um but you were teaching about Enameloplasty. I remember you were talking about enamel [00:43:20] plasty and how in those days you used to charge like crazy money for like, enamel Plasty remember you were saying. And [00:43:25] then and then I was like, listen, you need to get a scanner. I was the thing, you know, love teeth, dental. [00:43:30] And, um, I was probably gonna watch this. So I’m going to say now this is [00:43:35] this is when um, Canal did his talk, he came outside and then he was just on his laptop working. And [00:43:40] um, I was like, wow, Canal, your talk was so amazing. He was like, yeah, I just do the big cases now. And I was like, [00:43:45] I want to be like that guy, the guy who does the big cases. Yeah. And, um, he, and he convinced [00:43:50] me to get an itero. So that came off that too. And then I saw, I saw the girl. Um, um, [00:43:55] let’s just say Georgia on the Monday and, um, she was super, super happy Everglow [00:44:00] composite. Um, I haven’t used that for years and years. Polished [00:44:05] up really well. She still got it, still going strong. I’ve still got the pictures. And [00:44:10] um, that was the start. That was my first ever full set case, straight off mini smile makeover. [00:44:15] True story.

Payman Langroudi: That’s funny because Matty, he tried a composite [00:44:20] bonding on his nurse. Yeah. Messed it up and decided, oh no. And then came on mini smile makeover. [00:44:25] And then he eventually, like, he was booked out, like in the heyday. Yeah. When the [00:44:30] post Covid heyday. Yeah, he was booked out for like seven months.

Ali Al Hassan: Six, seven months.

Payman Langroudi: Composite bonding. [00:44:35] Yeah. Were you as well?

Ali Al Hassan: I was like three, four months. Wow. At the. [00:44:40] Hey. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it’s. That was a crazy time. [00:44:45] Like, now I’m like half a month ahead, but back then, and [00:44:50] it’s probably, that’s probably the least it’s been probably ever since Covid. I feel like [00:44:55] I, I do think there’s been a downtick in patients who want to do cosmetic treatment. [00:45:00] I’m still, I’m, and I think now’s like a pretty difficult time. You’ve got to be [00:45:05] really good at what you do, have a really good brand and to still be able to kind of do it. But, um, yeah, [00:45:10] those times were crazy, honestly. Like, I mean, furlough money was flowing. Everyone [00:45:15] was on Zoom.

Payman Langroudi: You haven’t been a dentist during a recession yet, [00:45:20] have you?

Ali Al Hassan: No, except I would kind of say we’re in a mini one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, we’re definitely [00:45:25] kind of a recession. They haven’t called it that. Yeah, but it is a kind of a recession. Yeah, but I remember [00:45:30] very well that 2008. My God, man, 2008 dude. Something [00:45:35] happened on the news, like private dentistry.

Ali Al Hassan: And you’re like, suddenly your diaries are just.

Payman Langroudi: No, like, like, [00:45:40] like a bank went down. Yeah. People just, like, suddenly lost all their jobs.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. The mortgages. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: The phone stopped ringing for two and a half days. The [00:45:50] phone did not ring at enlightened. And back then it was phone, right? Phone for two and a half days. And [00:45:55] we started the company like 7 or 8 years before that. And I’m looking around with my team going, [00:46:00] are the phones right? The phone systems.

Ali Al Hassan: Go back to Cardiff.

Payman Langroudi: Two [00:46:05] and a half days. Dude, the phone didn’t ring. I turn around to my partner and I said, dude, what if [00:46:10] it just never rings? Yeah, but the good thing is, dentistry does do quite well in [00:46:15] a recession quite well compared to everything else.

Ali Al Hassan: People really do prioritise their smile. [00:46:20] Yeah. Or their teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, one of the nice things about like there’s, there’s other businesses that do [00:46:25] well in recession, but they tend to be sort of dirty businesses like, you know, insolvency [00:46:30] businesses do very well in recession or whatever. But the great they [00:46:35] don’t those businesses don’t tend to do very well in the up times. But dentistry tends to do [00:46:40] well in both.

Ali Al Hassan: You can feed off the uptake. And there’s always there’s always drips and drabs.

Payman Langroudi: Survive.

Ali Al Hassan: The [00:46:45] times. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, we that’s important man. [00:46:50] That’s important. All right. So we get back to this switch [00:46:55] journey.

Ali Al Hassan: So so you start to do more anterior cases. Yeah. Um, doing [00:47:00] start to do a lot more, uh, combination of the Covid boom, lots of cases to suddenly [00:47:05] do lots of patients with money in their pockets doing lots of anterior dentistry, do the Invisalign [00:47:10] course, start doing these open days at a time where it just.

Payman Langroudi: Started auto training. Did you what have [00:47:15] you done for authors? Is it.

Ali Al Hassan: So I’ve done, I did, I did the I did the Invisalign course. [00:47:20] Um, I did a lot of mentoring with Doctor Afan who’s with Space Dental [00:47:25] now. Um, he did a lot of my, uh, ortho mentoring back then. He’s amazing. Learned so [00:47:30] much from him. Um, a, uh, Tiff Qureshi, uh, a a a [00:47:35] b s yeah, s Academy and the he did that course a line bleach bond [00:47:40] course. Um, and then, uh, yeah, and I did [00:47:45] a PG cert. Oh, this was so long ago, um, with, [00:47:50] uh, Shiraz Khan and that had like, um, a big like ortho component to it. And, [00:47:55] um, but yeah, it was more just kind of getting through the cases. I feel like Invisalign is a great system. Um, [00:48:00] and patients love it. Like if you can do ortho, it just unlocks [00:48:05] so much for you. Um, and it goes with, uh, cosmetic [00:48:10] enhancement.

Payman Langroudi: Say you get yourself in an ortho situation. Who do you call.

Ali Al Hassan: If [00:48:15] I’m in ortho situation? Uh, you.

Payman Langroudi: Got a.

Ali Al Hassan: Friend? I, I use the, I [00:48:20] kind of just use the forums.

Payman Langroudi: Other forums.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah, [00:48:25] I don’t, I don’t think I have a direct like, I know I [00:48:30] know people in ortho, but there’s not I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Or do you ever use one of these treatment [00:48:35] planning services? Have you ever.

Ali Al Hassan: No I’ve never no, I, I do all the stuff. I’ve always been like a [00:48:40] myself kind of person. Like I try and delegate as little as possible, but that’s just me. Um, but they do, [00:48:45] they do kind of have these services. Um, but, uh, I’ve always been, yeah, [00:48:50] I like to kind of do my plans myself according to like how I like to do, um, [00:48:55] how I like to do my iPod. I know you can set all of these things. Um, but I’ve kind [00:49:00] of put in a little system for myself. So I’ve got my spreadsheets for my ortho across the practices [00:49:05] and all the stuff for all the practices, know how my spreadsheet works and a patient starts on the [00:49:10] spreadsheet colour coded, they move through from like lead to there’s [00:49:15] probably, there’s probably software that does this, but I’ve, I’ve just become so comfortable with it. Yeah. Um, [00:49:20] that goes from like start to end to getting the aligners on your teeth to finishing retainers, all of that stuff. Um, [00:49:25] I don’t think ortho.

Payman Langroudi: Is that complicated.

Ali Al Hassan: I don’t want to [00:49:30] piss off the orthodontists.

Payman Langroudi: But just for my.

Ali Al Hassan: I don’t I don’t think it is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but so explain [00:49:35] it to me, dude, because I wouldn’t have the balls to treat lots of people in ortho. I didn’t [00:49:40] do much ortho. Yeah, I did some Invisalign and.

Ali Al Hassan: I was very nervous, like doing my first [00:49:45] composite cases. I was very nervous doing my first ortho cases. But I think when you.

Payman Langroudi: Cornerstones. [00:49:50] Cornerstones. What cornerstones does one need to be to have to be safe with [00:49:55] GDP. Invisalign. Yeah. Number one, got to know when not to treat [00:50:00] the case.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you learn this on all these on the courses. They literally teach you the things [00:50:05] to look out for. Um the things to look for managing expectations, ortho assessment forms, [00:50:10] make sure you’re filling all that stuff out.

Payman Langroudi: But then the next thing along, like if you’re trying to get really [00:50:15] good at it, really slick at it. Yeah. Let’s hear some tips. Like, like how to manage [00:50:20] more volume in ortho. How to sell it. How to manage the patient. [00:50:25] How to like what are your.

Ali Al Hassan: So so so so if you’re so if you’re if you’re in terms of selling it [00:50:30] paid paid advertising bar none is the quickest way to increase like your patient flow. You’ve got [00:50:35] to spend money. But if your ads are good, you’re going to get more money out. You need to have a system to track patients, [00:50:40] whether it’s these like, um, call tracking systems that are coming out now, but you need to make sure that [00:50:45] anyone who’s interested targets you helps to have a good relationship with Invisalign. So you’re coming up on their search. [00:50:50] Um, these are all things.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying in the ad, like, what are you saying about you?

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, it’s [00:50:55] just we’re doing an Invisalign open day. There’s X number of discounts. Um, and it’s going to [00:51:00] be with Doctor Ali, but that in my hometown, um, you, [00:51:05] you, you build a name for yourself. Yeah. So. Exactly. Yeah. So there will be someone who sees that he’s like, oh, Doctor [00:51:10] Ali’s doing the offer again. Jump in now kind of for the offer. Yeah. Um, or [00:51:15] like for the social media, but ultimately you want to be get really good at doing [00:51:20] the thing. Show people that you can do the thing and do it so [00:51:25] many times again that the self-doubt part is gone and touch wood. [00:51:30] I that’s kind of where at you’ve just got to do it so many times. I was when I did my first big cosmetic [00:51:35] case or with ortho or everything, everything’s difficult the first time. Everything’s worrisome. The [00:51:40] first time you think everything’s going to go wrong. The first time. When you do something a few hundred times, [00:51:45] it’s kind of you don’t really stress when you start doing things multiple hundreds of times or thousands of times, [00:51:50] it doesn’t really bother you anymore. Ultimately, you’re just trying to like, I look at things very simplistically. [00:51:55] You’re just putting a little bit of force on teeth to move them. You know, there’s lots [00:52:00] of like scientific things going on at the same time. But ultimately, like people used to do it in Egyptian times, [00:52:05] like you just pull teeth a little bit, they’ll move the body adapts to it, and it’s kind of where it needs to be. I’m [00:52:10] very simplistic when I look at these things. Ortho people are gonna hate me. But genuinely, um, [00:52:15] Um, you know, you’re just moving teeth.

Ali Al Hassan: A patient comes in and they want a tooth to be in a [00:52:20] different position to where it is. You want their bite to be in a better position. Obviously from that side as a doctor, so that [00:52:25] maybe you can do other things. Um, and Invisalign is a piece of plastic that’s moving them. It’s applying [00:52:30] the forces don’t use too much force. Uh, plan the case correctly, make space in the right places. But that just [00:52:35] comes with experience, you know, with mentors, like you say, but so much helps available online now. I’ve [00:52:40] learned so much from YouTube. Youtube is probably my biggest mentor in dentistry, like [00:52:45] bar none. So interesting. The amount of things I’ve learned because I grew up on like YouTube [00:52:50] gaming, and whenever I wanted to learn something, it was like, well, how do I pick up this [00:52:55] achievement? Some guy does it on YouTube, shows me how to do it. So I’ve actually learned a lot of [00:53:00] stuff from these American dentists who built all these free YouTube webinars on like [00:53:05] veneer preparations. And so I do a lot of my, um, stuff kind of, uh, [00:53:10] more the Americanised style, but I feel like Americans as well. Then they don’t get [00:53:15] too into the nitty gritty. They’re more like, um, uh, some of them do. But [00:53:20] I think American dentistry in general sees it coming from a more macro perspective and less of a biological [00:53:25] perspective. It’s like we’re getting the patient in. We’re doing this for them. We’re moving [00:53:30] the teeth. Whereas in the UK, there’s so much like regulation and do this and you have [00:53:35] to do the tick boxes and obviously we do them. But I think ultimately, um.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’ve done a lot [00:53:40] of Invisalign cases now. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So that makes you an experienced user. Yeah. What is [00:53:45] an experienced user. Someone who’s made some errors. Um otherwise. Yeah. [00:53:50] If you haven’t made some errors then you’re not very experienced.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to the darker part [00:53:55] of the pod. Okay. Discusses. Yeah. What’s what’s been your biggest difficulty? Like let’s start with [00:54:00] Invisalign. What like, which case comes to mind when you think that went a little [00:54:05] bit wrong? I would have, I would have done things differently.

Ali Al Hassan: Um. I’m [00:54:10] trying [00:54:15] to think. I’ve never had a case where someone’s teeth have just fallen out. Thank God.

Payman Langroudi: Touch wood. Good.

Ali Al Hassan: Trying to think. [00:54:20] Um. I’ve moved, I’ve moved. I’ve got a funny story. I’ve moved [00:54:25] a dead tooth. That should have been. No. So I’ve. I had a patient, an old lady. [00:54:30] She’s got a central incisor. Um, that’s just, uh, [00:54:35] periodontally involved and the tooth just totally dead. And it needs to just be extracted. [00:54:40] And she’s like, I just want to leave it in the gum in that position, but I’ve got like a bit of a gap. Now I [00:54:45] just want to close the gap. That tooth is like, it just needs to be extracted. She’s like, she’s like, no, [00:54:50] I was like, there’s no way we can do anything with this because look, I’ve got money. [00:54:55] What I want you to do is and she, she knows what she wants. And she’s a lovely lady. She’s like, I want you [00:55:00] to move these two teeth and close the gap. That’s what I want. I’ll do it. And you’ve got to ask yourself, look, ethically, [00:55:05] what are you actually trying to do here? The tooth’s already dead. It needs to go. She can do something [00:55:10] else. But I’ve literally moved that tooth. Close the gap. She wears a retainer on it every day.

Ali Al Hassan: Most [00:55:15] of the day she still comes in for her check-ups. And that tooth is. It’s not even attached. [00:55:20] Literally, I think you could flick it and the tooth would come out. I’ve moved it. She wears her retainers [00:55:25] on it, and it’s there. And and, um, again, it goes back to [00:55:30] what are you trying to do? Are you trying to help the patient or you are trying to fit like a cycle? [00:55:35] Because if you look at that purely from a biological perspective, that’s not the correct thing [00:55:40] to do. But if you’re looking at it from, I guess this kind of explains my point. If you’re looking at it [00:55:45] from a human perspective, what are you actually trying to do? In my case, I’m trying to help people [00:55:50] and make a living along the way. And if I’m helping them and doing them no harm, then, [00:55:55] um, that’s absolutely fine. But but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t call that like an [00:56:00] error. I’ve had, I’ve had bad, I’ve had bad. Um, ortho’s probably a bad area [00:56:05] to talk about my worst mistakes because honestly, genuinely touch wood. I’ve been very lucky with.

Payman Langroudi: All you [00:56:10] get. You get what I’m saying? That I wouldn’t call you a very experienced user.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve had I’ve [00:56:15] had a recession that’s got worse, but patients have been fine with it because I’ve had the communication really [00:56:20] good. For me, the horror story of ortho is like, if you move a tooth like out of a [00:56:25] bone or a tooth, that was fine comes out. Um, [00:56:30] okay. I’ve got um, a gentleman, um, eastern [00:56:35] gentleman. He, uh, came in for ortho and [00:56:40] uh, he, his perio was worse than I thought it was. Um, and [00:56:45] we did ortho on his lower teeth and they, and they were nice and straight, but he developed, [00:56:50] he went from like grade one mobility to like grade three mobility [00:56:55] on his lower, like 2 to 2. And, um, and his [00:57:00] perio actually just got worse throughout. He wasn’t really like looking after his teeth. And actually he kind of stopped wearing [00:57:05] his retainers as well. So it’s like he’s paid this money. His teeth were straight. They’ve kind of gone bent [00:57:10] again. And now they’re like wobbling in the wind. And we kind of had to extract them and just make a [00:57:15] bridge. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t part of the plan.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. And I’m thinking, obviously we probably [00:57:20] should have just made that bridge from the get go. And he’s just spent that extra money to get the ortho done. [00:57:25] And he made a comment about that. But that’s probably. But but again, [00:57:30] what.

Payman Langroudi: Can we learn? What can we learn from that one?

Ali Al Hassan: Communication is key. He could have kicked [00:57:35] off and another patient would have kicked off. But I kept him really well informed. [00:57:40] Um, I know him. His family sees me. I always ask him how his family is, how [00:57:45] his daughters. We’re more like we’re we’re we have a we have a very good relationship. Very [00:57:50] honest, open and up front. You know, this isn’t working anymore. You’re not even really wearing [00:57:55] your retainers. We’re just going to have to take these teeth out. I’m sorry. We should have done this beforehand. Um, [00:58:00] the thing and and, um, be better at your I, should [00:58:05] have been better at picking up on that patient and kind [00:58:10] of seeing that ortho was not the best way to go. I’m someone who is willing to test limits, [00:58:15] so I will do I will do ortho on periodontally involved patients if I think [00:58:20] that their oral hygiene is good. And I even say to them, your teeth are going to move quicker, there’s [00:58:25] less bone up. And genuinely, I think I’m helping that. In a lot of cases, [00:58:30] when people are periodontally involved, the occlusion is just too strong for the amount of bone around the teeth, [00:58:35] and their teeth are sort of drifting. So you need to kind of restabilize them in a good position and you’re kind of helping [00:58:40] them out. Um, but I’ve not had any. That’s my worst horror story [00:58:45] and I can’t in ortho.

Payman Langroudi: But no, listen, maybe.

Ali Al Hassan: But maybe I stick to maybe I stick to quite simple. [00:58:50] I do Invisalign go and I’ve always done Invisalign go. Oh really? Yeah. So 5 to 5 [00:58:55] then 6 to 6. There’s not a lot in my again, I don’t want to simplify it, but.

Payman Langroudi: You’re [00:59:00] not doing massive movements.

Ali Al Hassan: That can go wrong. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I’m not doing palatal [00:59:05] expanders and screws and any of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: How about how about if I said your [00:59:10] most difficult patient.

Ali Al Hassan: My most difficult patient. [00:59:15] Um. I’m just trying to think right now. [00:59:20] Is there any patient that I’m that I’ve got. I genuinely go to sleep right now. [00:59:25] And there’s honestly patients wise, there’s nothing I’m trying to think in the past.

Payman Langroudi: Dentist [00:59:30] like eight years or something.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been who is your most difficult patient.

Ali Al Hassan: Difficult patient. Um, I’ve [00:59:35] had difficulties with like staff members that we can go into. Yeah, [00:59:40] I could. So my should I tell you my biggest dental issue? Yeah, I can tell you that because I’m happy to go into t but I don’t really [00:59:45] I’ve been so lucky. My biggest superpower is I get on with people. So with patients, [00:59:50] even if something goes wrong, I’ve always had a great relationship with the patient and I’ve never had something touch [00:59:55] wood that I’ve had. I’ve, I’ve had a, a stand off relationship with a patient. No patient [01:00:00] has ever gone to lawyers regarding me. I’ve never had to do any of that stuff. [01:00:05] I’ve refunded people and stuff, but it’s been between us together. I’ve been lucky in that way. Um, [01:00:10] I really pissed off, uh, a practice. Uh, I [01:00:15] need to, I need to not give too much detail here, but, um, let’s say I’ve, I’ve really, [01:00:20] I do my own thing. As you kind of know, sometimes though, if you don’t, if [01:00:25] you’re not good at following instructions, it can piss people off. Um, at a certain point I’ve [01:00:30] had a staff member, um, do a GDC [01:00:35] referral about me to the GDC literally like, um, not [01:00:40] making stuff up, but taking things and then, uh, changing them like five times [01:00:45] worse to make it into something bad. Um, and then sent that to the GDC. [01:00:50] So I got the GDC email through and it was literally like, Ali, you’ve done, you’ve done [01:00:55] this, um, having lunch with patients, talking [01:01:00] about patients, uh, in a, in a, in a joking way, um, saying that, [01:01:05] you know, patients are good looking or not good looking and that you would date them, etc., [01:01:10] whatever. Um, and I can’t even remember what the rest of the stuff was about, but it was like, really, [01:01:15] it was like taking just normal dental practice conversations and just making it [01:01:20] sound, uh, very horrible. Yeah. And, um, it was all hearsay.

Payman Langroudi: Did you piss [01:01:25] someone off?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So I actually didn’t. I’m so oblivious, but I didn’t even know this person, [01:01:30] like really disliked me, but I left a position. And then as soon as [01:01:35] I left the obviously, um, there was, uh, [01:01:40] a situation where I’m not benefiting said place anymore because [01:01:45] I’ve left. Yeah. So on, on that tail end, you can, and I’ve [01:01:50] heard of this happen to a lot of associates where they’ve, uh, sometimes, for example, left the job and [01:01:55] then, well, now, you know, we can, if there’s been if it’s not a clean break or a good break. Yeah. [01:02:00] Um, you can whatever get reported for whatever. Yeah. Now, I was very, I was very [01:02:05] proactive. I literally got the GDC email through saying this is the charge [01:02:10] sheet. We just want to let you know this is what’s been said. We’re just looking into it for now. And we [01:02:15] just need some details from you. Your indemnity. They asked for indemnity. They ask for just make sure [01:02:20] that you you’re covering everything. So I sent that. I was like, by the way, this is all made up. And [01:02:25] I actually went back to this, uh, organisation and um, the, [01:02:30] the other people who I did have a really good relationship with, um, I [01:02:35] was like, would you be willing to, to write a letter to say, none of this is true? It [01:02:40] was totally nonclinical. It was all like hearsay stuff. It was the weirdest things. Like one of the [01:02:45] actual things was having lunch with patients. A lot of my patients, my friends, they come in for [01:02:50] treatment and I’ve been seeing them for like three, four years. And, um, we’ll just get lunch afterwards. [01:02:55] Like guys and girls. Yeah, we go for a Nando’s. That [01:03:00] that was on the thing, having lunch with patients.

Payman Langroudi: So why did you piss [01:03:05] this person off? What was it they. Was it that you were changing job?

Ali Al Hassan: And um, they [01:03:10] were very, they were like, you need to, they’re trying to put me into [01:03:15] the associate box of you have to do this and we want you to come in.

Payman Langroudi: So you left, you got. [01:03:20]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. You want to come in. I kind of dealt with it for a few years. Um, and [01:03:25] we, and we were doing well, but I would just do my own thing. I’d come in when I won, I’d see patients when I won. [01:03:30] And it works really well for me in the other places where I’m just kind of given [01:03:35] the freedom, that’s what I need to work. I’ve learned that about myself, and this was a place that didn’t really [01:03:40] want that or like that. And, um, someone in management, um, [01:03:45] was, uh, really, really didn’t like that. And kind of looking [01:03:50] at it back there, probably get the feeling that this person doesn’t give a shit about me. They’re doing their own thing. [01:03:55] Um, they’re really happy. They’re going shopping and [01:04:00] they’re like, kind of working, coming and going. And, um, personally, [01:04:05] I think there’s a bit of jealousy there. Um, I could be wrong, but then, but [01:04:10] then you get a GDC charge sheet with all this, like made up.

Payman Langroudi: I really want to caution you against the jealousy, uh, [01:04:15] explanation for I.

Ali Al Hassan: Don’t think it’s an.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. No, but I [01:04:20] want to caution you on it. Yeah. Insomuch as there may be jealousy, there may be jealousy, [01:04:25] but it’s a very easy way of not confronting what the actual situation [01:04:30] was.

Ali Al Hassan: The actual situation was I just do what I want to do, and this person doesn’t like that. [01:04:35] They’re very, uh, managerial. You have to come in at this time. You have to if, for [01:04:40] example, like if I, um, let me, let me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So, so you, you, you know, her [01:04:45] authority was being, uh, is it it didn’t exist.

Ali Al Hassan: I just acted like it didn’t exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [01:04:50] yeah. And, um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You disrespectful.

Ali Al Hassan: Owners didn’t care.

Payman Langroudi: Her authority.

Ali Al Hassan: No, but yeah, but never like, not [01:04:55] even a bad word said.

Payman Langroudi: No, but to her.

Ali Al Hassan: Authority, I just ignore. Yeah, I just ignore like I will just do what [01:05:00] I want to do and I will not, I won’t even engage. I won’t even try and convince someone if I want to do something [01:05:05] and they want to do something else and I won’t even have the chat, I’ll just do because [01:05:10] I know like I’m good and I’m comfortable in myself. Um, anyway, so, so this comes through. [01:05:15] I get this letter written by all the other, but I’m, I’m shitting bricks. I’m like, this is crazy. [01:05:20] Tell a few close friends and then, um, and then you hear about these things sometimes go on for years and [01:05:25] years and years and years and years. And I’m like, I’m just going to have this like hanging over my head. And I was like, you [01:05:30] know, like whatever. And I start thinking, I start mentally training myself like, this is going to be there for years [01:05:35] now. You’re just going to be there. It’s just another thing that’s there. Ignore it. Don’t worry, it’s fine. You’ll get [01:05:40] over it. But do everything you can. Be proactive. Um, I get a letter written by [01:05:45] four people totally to counteract, um, signed [01:05:50] and everything. And before the GDC even asked for it, when they asked for my initial details, I sent [01:05:55] that letter in. They come back to me. So it’s been like a week. They come back [01:06:00] to me and they say, um, Ali, uh, thank you actually for your [01:06:05] details and thank you for this letter as well. Um, can you confirm the contact [01:06:10] details of these people? These people were actually very scared to put their [01:06:15] names to this because, um, they didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Want to get fired. They were.

Ali Al Hassan: Fearful. Exactly. [01:06:20] And, um, that was, we had that relationship and I, and I was like, look, it’s confidential on [01:06:25] their side. I confirmed from the GDC, it’s confidential on both sides. And, um, it, [01:06:30] uh, and, uh, so, so they were able to directly the GDC. Then [01:06:35] I gave the email addresses, the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymously.

Ali Al Hassan: The GDC emailed said people. [01:06:40] Yeah. Um, the Ali’s given this letter to say that, you know, this is all.

Payman Langroudi: Made [01:06:45] up or whatever was real.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. And then they all emailed back, you know, thanks to them. Love those [01:06:50] people. They know who they are. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And they dropped the case, right.

Ali Al Hassan: And they [01:06:55] dropped the case in three weeks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, that’s like that. They call that blue on blue, [01:07:00] you know, like dentist on dentist violence. Yeah. Yeah. At the GDC.

Ali Al Hassan: I think that’s what most of it [01:07:05] is.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a massive component of it. I mean, this probably wasn’t a dentist, but but still. Yeah. Same [01:07:10] story. Do you reckon you learned something by it? Like, you know, I’m interested [01:07:15] in the would you do things differently?

Ali Al Hassan: Why learn was put yourself in the. It wasn’t. I would [01:07:20] act differently. It was. Put yourself in an environment which you know, [01:07:25] you can thrive in. Um, I put myself and I’m a I’m a big believer [01:07:30] in, um, nothing I don’t, I don’t blame other people or anything else. I’m, [01:07:35] I’m a self. It falls to you. The only thing you can control is you. The only thing that [01:07:40] you can change is your decisions. Anything you can’t control. Don’t worry about what could you have done differently? [01:07:45] What I could have done differently. There is just, um, uh, not been [01:07:50] in that position where it didn’t work. Like money was good and everything, but, [01:07:55] um, how the system wanted to work versus how I wanted to work were at odds. And, [01:08:00] um, there was a big clash with like management and like other and some [01:08:05] other members of staff, um, not in like a verbal way or a physical way, but just in terms of [01:08:10] like, I would just disengage and do my thing. And that can really annoy some people if, [01:08:15] if, if they’re, if they’re seen in that way. So don’t put yourself in that environment. Um, [01:08:20] but I’ve been quite lucky in that I’ve, I’ve settled in good environments, mostly 80% on [01:08:25] the whole, and I’m still in all of those places. And now I’m kind of, I don’t really think I’ll ever, I don’t [01:08:30] see myself changing jobs in like a, in. I’ve changed jobs once. [01:08:35] And that was the only time, you know, otherwise I’ve just started. But you hear about other [01:08:40] people who are like, they work in one place for a year and then they jump to another and they jump, jumped. And then they wonder why they’re not getting [01:08:45] like loads of cases ceptance or doing loads of amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Word of mouth. Word of mouth is on a real like exponential [01:08:50] curve. It is. So it is like, you know, a small difference at the beginning makes a big difference.

Ali Al Hassan: And [01:08:55] all of these things compound doing the same thing for a very long amount of time. That’s compounding. [01:09:00] You’re in the same area. So people are talking about you and that word of mouth is spreading. That [01:09:05] compounds. You’re getting better and better at media. You start by taking pictures, then you get more confident [01:09:10] in doing videos. You’re getting more confident speaking on camera. Now you’re seeing more things on social media, [01:09:15] so you’re getting more ideas of what you want to do on social media. That’s compounding your confidence [01:09:20] in.

Payman Langroudi: Your critical mass, isn’t it? Like I remember with every new product we do same story, mini [01:09:25] smile makeover. We’re like, yeah, loads of people were really happy. Yeah, but we weren’t getting many word of mouth. Yeah. [01:09:30] I mean, what’s going on? What’s going on? And what it was was it wasn’t loads of people. It was actually a tiny number [01:09:35] of people because it was early.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: As the years go on, the number of humans increases. [01:09:40] You know, like it’s a it’s an important thing to bear in mind. Yeah. Tell me about [01:09:45] Dental opulence.

Ali Al Hassan: So do. My best friend in the Midlands [01:09:50] was like, Ali, I see you doing lots of this amazing dentistry. I’ve got a unit free. Let’s just [01:09:55] open a clinic. And, um, I was kind of a little bit against it. I was very free in what [01:10:00] I wanted to do. He was like, Ali, I will handle all of the logistical stuff. So all [01:10:05] the hands on stuff, the paperwork stuff, the, the all I want you to basically put [01:10:10] your name on it, put the, your portion of the money towards it, obviously, and um, [01:10:15] if you want to work there, you can work there. If not, we’ll do it together. But just do be that clinical person because he’s not a [01:10:20] dentist. Yeah. Um, and um, I was like, okay, let’s do it. So we kind of, and [01:10:25] it’s for me, it was like more of a life experience. You know, I want to know how opening a practice is. So, you [01:10:30] know, you learn about building, you learn about putting a surgery together. You learn about CQC, you [01:10:35] learn more of the kind of background, like marketing side and everything from a practice [01:10:40] point of view. You’re trying to get other dentists busy now, not just yourself. Um, in a city where I’m [01:10:45] not really known. So, um, this was our thing was like, if we can make that work, [01:10:50] we can make anything work. Um, and then we were like, we’re going to expand [01:10:55] from there, but we’ve kind of just been having too much fun the last two years to be doing that. But again, [01:11:00] it’s that balance, right? It’s like, when do you choose to jump out of the rat race and start enjoying some [01:11:05] of your time versus we keep working, expanding, working, expanding, working with you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not an either or though, [01:11:10] is it? You’re doing both at the same time.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. But I would say I can, I, I’m more [01:11:15] than happy to confirm and say for the last two years, I would say I’ve been on the [01:11:20] work side. I’ve been stagnant but stagnant at a level that I’m happy. [01:11:25] I’m happy in terms of like what I’m earning. Like I haven’t really, I’m not doing [01:11:30] more than what I was doing, uh, for the last sort of year and a half or so. But then, but the [01:11:35] extra effort for me has been like travelling the world, seeing things that I never thought [01:11:40] I would see. Just going to these experiences and just kind of probably living [01:11:45] life to a level that I didn’t really live it. Um, probably from my early days. [01:11:50] Yeah. Um, you know, catching up on that dopamine, as they say. Yeah, yeah. And, um, but, [01:11:55] but that’s you got to get the most out of life, right? You know, you get one shot and works amazing [01:12:00] and helping people and that and that sense of duty. At some point we’re gonna, we’re gonna, [01:12:05] you know, there’s definitely more practices on the way. Um, and there’s even like plans in [01:12:10] the works for that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me some of the highlights of Dental opulence. Like how, how long [01:12:15] was it a complete squat?

Ali Al Hassan: We, yeah, we just put a little bit of money in every single month. He’d [01:12:20] put a bit of money in. I’d put the money in. We’re like, what can we pay for? It took us like, because, you know, you can fit out these surgeries [01:12:25] really quick. Now we just did it the old school way. We didn’t take any loans. Um, it cost [01:12:30] it’s, it’s like a one surgery boutique practice cost about, I would say all [01:12:35] in all about. I think I might get the number to. I can’t remember [01:12:40] if it’s. I might have to, um, just [01:12:45] trying to think how much was it? I think it was like one 180 [01:12:50] zero zero £0 around there. All in all done. We should have made it a two surgery, [01:12:55] but we’ve learned that for the next one when we get around to it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And then a different [01:13:00] associates work there or one associate.

Ali Al Hassan: Three associates, um one three days a week, one [01:13:05] two days a week, one like one day a week.

Payman Langroudi: Um, or any of them super associates.

Ali Al Hassan: No, [01:13:10] but one guy’s getting really, really good. Um, we took him from just purely NHS to [01:13:15] referral from word of mouth that he’s a good dentist in the local area, train him up to do composite and loads [01:13:20] of ortho, which he’s doing now. Um, but they’ve not really hit, they’re not good on this. They don’t do their [01:13:25] socials, they don’t like you, you with socials, you have to enjoy it to do it, or [01:13:30] you have to just pay someone to do it for you. And the people who don’t enjoy it. Unfortunately [01:13:35] for them, also don’t want to pay someone to do it for them. And, um, I think [01:13:40] that if you look at all the super associates, they’re big on socials. I don’t, I think it’s hard to, [01:13:45] you know, and I don’t even think I’m that big of a super associate, whatever. [01:13:50] Um, but these super associates are.

Payman Langroudi: Linked to social.

Ali Al Hassan: Are doing well.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [01:13:55] no doubt about it. Yeah. There would be no super associates without super social. Yeah. Well, really [01:14:00] so but what did you learn? Was it easier or harder than you thought? [01:14:05]

Ali Al Hassan: Uh, it was more. It’s just taking the steps. I wouldn’t even [01:14:10] call it easy. You know, you’ve you have.

Payman Langroudi: Well, how well did it do? I mean, you you.

Ali Al Hassan: So we we.

Payman Langroudi: One [01:14:15] room.

Ali Al Hassan: We made we made our money back. Yeah. Both of us. So we put in what, um, [01:14:20] like about 90 grand each. Yeah. We made our money back in um 7 [01:14:25] or 8 months.

Payman Langroudi: Oh nice.

Ali Al Hassan: In a one surgery. So we, we got [01:14:30] that money back. Um, yeah, it was, it was really good. [01:14:35] Um, we did, we did it. He, he’s got a big accounting business, uh, [01:14:40] up there, so they know loads of small to medium sized business owners, thousands of them on their books [01:14:45] so that they’ve all got money in their pocket. They’re coming in to get their teeth done. He knows a lot of the local celebrities, [01:14:50] so we did a lot of the local celebrities. We did some rappers, we’ve done some Aston Villa footballers. Um, [01:14:55] and um, when I kind of made my money back, that’s when I was actually doing [01:15:00] um, what I was doing. I was doing two days a week in the beginning [01:15:05] over there. And then I stepped back and I was like, right, I’m just going to do associate lead now. I’m going to [01:15:10] come just for two days a month. Um, and now I’m, you know, it’s a new challenge. [01:15:15] Like, you know, trying to get other dentists busy, uh, trying to be a good mentor when I’m [01:15:20] like, not on holiday or not working or not doing my own thing. And, um, you know, kind of just letting, [01:15:25] letting it sort of take its course, but a squat if done well, some people like, you know, when you see those, [01:15:30] um, you see those posts online and it’s like, don’t expect to earn any [01:15:35] money for three years. And um, yeah, make sure you’ve saved up for it’s [01:15:40] very like, can be very doom or gloom when people are like giving that sort of advice in. We, [01:15:45] we, we, we, we had good foundations in terms of like my socials already and the work [01:15:50] that I know about and the systems that I knew and his local, uh, connections [01:15:55] in the area. But, but if you want to find a winning formula to begin with, find [01:16:00] your advantage and then push it. Yeah. But you can, you can do very well. And there’s people who’ve done much [01:16:05] better than, than we have honestly. Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so, but [01:16:10] the plan is to grow dio um, it’s a good little brand we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: I love the [01:16:15] brand.

Ali Al Hassan: Dio.co.uk.

Payman Langroudi: Have.

Ali Al Hassan: You don’t do.co.uk.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you know, when, [01:16:20] when you see a logo. I don’t know about you man. Every time I see a logo I always want to critique it, make it better. Yeah, I [01:16:25] can’t.

Ali Al Hassan: You know, Shaz from Digimarc says their brand. No, [01:16:30] but he’s like, you’re. That’s the best thing. So we were just sitting there and we were like, and we just [01:16:35] we saw the Adobe logo, the Adobe with the two D’s. And we were like, let’s just [01:16:40] do that, but do like a D like as a half circle and then an O, and then there’s so much [01:16:45] like you can turn it on the side and it’s a man, it’s a person or it’s like a smile the other way around. [01:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s cool.

Ali Al Hassan: Man. And um, yeah, so.

Payman Langroudi: You should do more of those eventually.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [01:16:55] So we and on the, on the Deo social page we built, we just follow, we don’t follow [01:17:00] because some this is some people build Instagram by following loads of people. This is like a strategy [01:17:05] on Instagram where you can, um, some people to grow their Instagram will follow thousands of people and X [01:17:10] percentage will follow you back. And it’s a way of like growing. We don’t follow anyone, but we’ve grown the [01:17:15] page in two years to like 6000 followers. Um, to [01:17:20] put that in perspective, I’m on my Insta, it’s like 18,000, but that’s [01:17:25] nine years, which is a business. So it’s almost harder [01:17:30] because it’s not a person.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a.

Ali Al Hassan: Person. So it’s grown to five and a bit in [01:17:35] two years. Yeah. So, um, just why [01:17:40] is that posting regularly all the time. Having a nice brand [01:17:45] and be good and confident at what you do and people will, people will kind of find [01:17:50] you.

Payman Langroudi: I think for, for social consistency really is a really important point. Absolutely. [01:17:55] Yeah. Not only because the algorithms love, love it. Yeah. But [01:18:00] I don’t think the algorithms love it as much as they used to.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. But having your shop front. [01:18:05] Yeah. It’s your shops either closed or open. And so you need to 24 hour running story. If [01:18:10] you’re if you’re posting once a week, just think of time. If you’re posting once a week, [01:18:15] when someone sees your story cumulatively in that week, it’s like a snapshot of time. If [01:18:20] it’s a post your digital shop is open to ex [01:18:25] outside, a person who sees it, which most people don’t even see it, but someone who sees it. Just think about. Think [01:18:30] about all the minutes that you have in a week. Your digital shopfront is open for like three [01:18:35] seconds. Yeah, out of those millions of minutes or how many minutes there are in [01:18:40] a week, you need to have a rolling story. You need to always be there. And because no one else is doing it [01:18:45] and you’re doing it, you’re obviously cleaning up. You know, you want to be that person [01:18:50] who, if people hate doing the thing, you be the person who’s getting in the weeds and doing it and [01:18:55] you’ll see the benefit from it.

Payman Langroudi: What do you say to people? And there’s lots. Yeah. In my generation, [01:19:00] say the amount of time you’re spending on social, you should be dedicating [01:19:05] to clinical learning more than you already know.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:19:10] uh, you know, things like, you know, you know, my generation hates awards. [01:19:15] Yeah, yeah. Do you understand? Do you understand the concern?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, it’s it’s. [01:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s tell me the concern. Like what the.

Ali Al Hassan: Concern about awards is. It’s your you’re [01:19:25] pushing to patients that you’re like a BAFTA [01:19:30] winner of Oscars, for example, and there’s been like a whole judging panel or whatever. And [01:19:35] you’re saying now I’m an award winner. And it’s kind of the the thing is, you’re misleading patients [01:19:40] to come to you. And then people who don’t engage in it hate it even more because other people are using [01:19:45] it and they’re not using it. And then they might see said people, you know, advertising it, [01:19:50] putting it on their websites and whatever. And they’re like, this is, um, this can be seen as whatever, like misleading. [01:19:55] It depends on what your mentality is. My mentality is, is, look, if [01:20:00] it’s the rules of the game, if it’s acceptable and allowed, you know, I’m [01:20:05] going to use it. If I’m, if I, if, if I’m running at you and you’re the goalie and I have a guy on my [01:20:10] left, I could shoot or I could use the guy, but I just use what’s available to you. [01:20:15] Um, the awards are there. I’m agnostic towards it. I’m, I’m very much like, [01:20:20] is this beneficial to me? Are patients going to come through the door if I use this? [01:20:25] And am I going to get in trouble if I use this? So the answer is no. I’m not going to get in trouble. I can use it. [01:20:30] Other people are using it. Um, patients are going to come through and it’s going to give you proof. And I’m happy [01:20:35] in what I’m doing, but it’s just something else that’s going to give you more proof. Um, I’ll use it. What’s [01:20:40] your goal? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to help more people? Yes. [01:20:45] So if you win an award, whatever kind of award [01:20:50] it is, which there’s all these companies or whatever. But let’s say now you win one and you put it on your website. Do [01:20:55] you think reasonably you’ll get X number more people coming through when they see that [01:21:00] the answer would be yes, right. Compared to what.

Payman Langroudi: I get, though, of course I get that. Yeah, of course I get that. [01:21:05]

Ali Al Hassan: So and that means you can help more people. Don’t you want to help more people?

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. But look, we have [01:21:10] them. Yeah, yeah we have. I can pay 1500 pounds. Yeah, yeah. [01:21:15] To eight different organisations and get eight awards. Yeah. Should I, for [01:21:20] enlightened say, oh, best best teeth whitening system. [01:21:25] This most improved. It’s very easy. You know about this? There’s companies that sell those [01:21:30] awards. Yeah. One of one of our competitors loves them. Yeah. Yeah. Should I now. I [01:21:35] don’t want to. It’s not. It’s not what I’m about. Yeah, yeah. But but it’s not the end of the world.

Ali Al Hassan: But does it. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: But but I’m not even saying.

Ali Al Hassan: Is it about you? You’re not talking about you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying.

Ali Al Hassan: Just use it as a marketing [01:21:45] tool.

Payman Langroudi: I could do, I could do.

Ali Al Hassan: Why wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Should I do you buy? I [01:21:50] just buy a bunch of awards.

Ali Al Hassan: Do you want your business to do better?

Payman Langroudi: I’m not necessarily saying it would. [01:21:55] See, that’s. That’s.

Ali Al Hassan: So you physically think it wouldn’t translate to much?

Payman Langroudi: So it’s important in B2B. Definitely [01:22:00] in B2C is different, but in B2B, yeah, if I bought eight awards that anyone [01:22:05] can look and see, these are bought awards.

Ali Al Hassan: No, no, but no, but that’s your you’re in a bubble [01:22:10] there.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, B2B, B2B is a.

Ali Al Hassan: Bubble. No, I know, but no, but 90, 90% [01:22:15] of dental practices probably still don’t even know the. Not 90, but like half [01:22:20] of dental practices don’t even know the awards even exist still.

Payman Langroudi: Well, why don’t you put professor [01:22:25] in front of your name?

Ali Al Hassan: But when they see it.

Payman Langroudi: You know what.

Ali Al Hassan: I mean? Yeah, I, I don’t I.

Payman Langroudi: Because I get [01:22:30] into trouble. You’re saying yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah yeah, yeah. If you exactly. But also I don’t even necessarily think that’d be good. But [01:22:35] look, if you have a website that offers a great service and let’s say a thousand patients come through it, just [01:22:40] if you now take that same website and you put an award in, it’s more proof you’re going to get more people. [01:22:45] So if your goal is you want to help more people, just think about what your foundational principle is. Is [01:22:50] it to is it to make lots of money so you can live your life and help the world? Is it or selfishly, [01:22:55] is it to help lots of people on a. Whatever your goal is, you’re going to be able [01:23:00] to do more of what you want to do. If you have more proof and an award shows proof to [01:23:05] other people, and if. And it’s not gonna, it’s not going to turn people away. The only thing that will [01:23:10] turn people away is your product. That’s the only thing that will ever turn people away. But [01:23:15] the more things you have as proof, that’s going to get more people, like through the door. Um, don’t [01:23:20] even it’s not an honour thing. People make it like all about honour and like, it’s not [01:23:25] that it’s look, we’re gonna, we’re on this, we’re in this on this planet for like a [01:23:30] minute. We’re going to be dead. Everyone’s going to forget everything about us. Just do the thing and do it to the fullest. [01:23:35] Like it’s not, it’s not that deep. Do if it’s going to help you do more of what you want to do, then, [01:23:40] um, then do it. So, so I’m on that side, but I totally understand what you’re saying. But [01:23:45] most people.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not what I’m saying. It’s, it’s what people are saying. Yeah. Some [01:23:50] people are saying, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s important. My point is, it’s important to understand [01:23:55] these concerns. Yeah. Like by the way, by the way, you could say, no, it’s not, you.

Ali Al Hassan: Didn’t used [01:24:00] to allow it to be even advertising for dentistry. Right? In the old days, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: You could, you could say, no, it’s not, it’s not. [01:24:05] I’ll focus on, you know, enjoy my life instead of focusing on these things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if we’re [01:24:10] discussing what’s going on out there. Yeah. Like if I, if let’s say, uh, this, [01:24:15] uh, Israel Palestine thing. Yeah. Yeah. I, I actively [01:24:20] see search out Israeli news sources to hear. What are they saying? Okay. [01:24:25] What what are they saying? Yeah. Yeah. Even though overall, I feel like more worried for [01:24:30] the Palestinians. Yeah. Yeah. And let’s say I actively search [01:24:35] out, um, Nigel Farage content. Yeah. To see what are those [01:24:40] guys saying. Like what is the actual issue. Yeah. Blame immigrants for everything. Yeah. [01:24:45] But why, why is this guy having to blame immigrants to understand it? Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to vote for Nigel [01:24:50] Farage. Yeah. I’m not a pro like Zionist king or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to hear [01:24:55] what those people are thinking. It’s important, you know, because yeah, it’s very easy to tribally kind [01:25:00] of say, you know, one thing or the other. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m of the view [01:25:05] of just do what’s best for you. Like don’t even it’s not even about why you even part of the debate. [01:25:10] Just don’t waste your time on it. Do just ignore everything else and just do what you want to do. That’s my. [01:25:15] I’m not even like trying to. I’m like, what do you need to do? Stick to that. Do [01:25:20] more of that. And just whether that’s working, balancing doing [01:25:25] both of them, um, just do what you can to, to do more of that stuff. Yeah. And don’t [01:25:30] worry about what other people think, honestly, except for your parents, you should listen to your parents at all times. [01:25:35]

Payman Langroudi: Very nice caveat. Let’s talk about travel. You’re always away. [01:25:40]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So, um, once a month. I’ve got a long weekend. I [01:25:45] like to go somewhere, um, with my friends. It’s like a really, uh, it’s [01:25:50] like an amazing reset. Go somewhere for nights. That’s the sweet spot for [01:25:55] nights. Go anywhere. Go Europe. Europe’s really good in summer. You’ve got amazing destinations. Uh, [01:26:00] we’re going to Sweden, Stockholm, um, next [01:26:05] weekend, and I just find, uh, I’ve time I a timetable in my holiday like people [01:26:10] timetable in my work. I’m on a four week work timetable, so I’ll work [01:26:15] three and three quarters weeks. And then that last quarter I’ll take off. Um, [01:26:20] and we’ll go somewhere, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The same group of people.

Ali Al Hassan: Pretty much. [01:26:25] Yeah. You, if you, if you find people that you get on really, really well with, um, yeah, [01:26:30] literally like you’ve met Ali, like I go with Ali a lot. Iranian fellow Iranian, um, up in Manchester, [01:26:35] he’s a, he’s a funny dude. But yeah, if you, if you find, yeah, if you find someone you can just co-exist with, [01:26:40] um, and have a good time and have laughs. Like I think there’s no higher experience [01:26:45] for a man than just shits and giggles with the boys. That’s my personal experience. Look, [01:26:50] you can say family, you can say all of this stuff. You can say like the connection [01:26:55] with, um, a man to a woman and like, look, there’s no better male experience [01:27:00] genuinely than sitting with a bunch of boys, having a laugh, doing whatever you want to do. And [01:27:05] that crosses any kind of economic barrier. Um, so I like to do more of that [01:27:10] because I want to have loads of great times in my life. Loads of great.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, at the beginning you were saying not having enough time [01:27:15] for old friends. Yeah, that for me, school friends.

Ali Al Hassan: You have to break.

Payman Langroudi: School friends [01:27:20] are the ultimate. Yeah, yeah. University of course. I mean, I’m in I’m in business relationships with [01:27:25] people I used to live in. Yeah. I live in university with, but school friends, man, when [01:27:30] you say shits and giggles. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah, honestly, like, um, you know. The [01:27:35] holidays. Um, I would encourage anyone [01:27:40] to travel you. It changes you. You start meeting. [01:27:45] So, so one thing I’ve learned recently is, um, a superpower is just being able to meet [01:27:50] lots of people, which you do, for example, like through the podcast. And we’re very lucky in our [01:27:55] profession that we get to meet so many people during Covid when everyone’s locked up at home, we still got to [01:28:00] meet loads of people. It’s such a big I think it gives you so much life force that you don’t even kind of think [01:28:05] about that even even on the professional level. But then on holidays, you’re meeting people who are doing amazing [01:28:10] things in totally different industries. You make friends in different countries. [01:28:15] Um, it just inspires you and opens your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It feeds an extrovert, but [01:28:20] not an introvert. I mean, like an introvert gets tired by meeting people. Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: So I’m, I’m, [01:28:25] when I’m in my work zone, I’m very introverted. [01:28:30] I like to max out almost both. So when I’m in work mode, I’m these [01:28:35] days, I’m kind of just like keeping to myself, going to the gym, um, sleeping on my work days. [01:28:40] But when I’ve got like a weekend or I’m going somewhere, I really want to kind of like, you know, do the thing. [01:28:45] Yeah, exactly. Like, um, I think, but some people [01:28:50] do like that quiet, introverted life, like my, like my cousin. And then some people like want to be [01:28:55] fully out there and whatever. Um, sometimes I ask myself, which one do I fit into? Because [01:29:00] I can be comfortable in both. And traditionally I’ve been the introverted person [01:29:05] in a university. I was very like, I had my close group of friends, but I wasn’t like a very social [01:29:10] person. But then, but now, like you go to like whatever south of France or you, [01:29:15] you go on these summer holidays to like Mykonos and, and you’re meeting all these like amazing people doing [01:29:20] great things, business owners, um, enjoying life. The sun’s shining and that [01:29:25] kind of seems amazing to us.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me about, um, Dental [01:29:30] excellence and Robbie because you you, uh, got [01:29:35] work there? Yeah. Down the road for me, I, I tried it four times a day. Yeah. [01:29:40] Um, tell me about it. Like, how did you get involved with Robbie?

Ali Al Hassan: Robbie kind of mentioned it [01:29:45] to me, and I was making a move in London. I was moving from east London to west London. Um, [01:29:50] so it was kind of driven by my, just my personal. I was like, look, I’ve been in East London, boy, now [01:29:55] when I’ve been in London, I’ve been in Canary Wharf now for like five, six years. I was like, I want to be a west London [01:30:00] boy. Now let’s just see what the West like. So that drove it. So first I got a flat moved [01:30:05] up, and then I kind of put the word out. And Robbie also [01:30:10] let me know that he was kind of opening a location. And I’ve been through, um, it’s testament to kind [01:30:15] of the courses and stuff that they put together, but I’ve been through all of that stuff. So I understand their systems and [01:30:20] I, and I get on with their systems and I really get on with their people. Um, you know, I’ve taught a [01:30:25] few of Robbie’s courses as a delegate who’s been through it and then done like, you know, um, [01:30:30] like the injection mould and stuff I’ve taught and I’ve, I’ve done really well, obviously from that stuff. I’m very grateful. [01:30:35] Um, and um, me and Robbie have always got on as people, so it was kind [01:30:40] of like um, there was no job. It was just like, I’m moving here. I’m opening a place. Cool. [01:30:45] What days do you want to do? Done. And then that’s it. I’m there tomorrow.

Payman Langroudi: And are you [01:30:50] getting patience for that from your socials as well? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Pretty much just from mine. Well it [01:30:55] has just been from mine. I don’t even think they’ve got their, their marketing machine They’re getting [01:31:00] spinning now, but from now it’s been pretty much. Yeah, just just me. Um, [01:31:05] my, so my Instagram is like London, um, Swindon and Midland. [01:31:10] It just finds the right people. Yeah. You can see the analytics, but it just, it finds the right people. [01:31:15] I know my target market. It’s like, uh, 40% boys, 60% girls, [01:31:20] 24 to 35 age range. Um, you, you learn [01:31:25] so much kind of by, by looking, by looking at that data. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:31:30] you’re building this house.

Ali Al Hassan: I’m building a house. Yeah. So I bought a house. Um, and [01:31:35] so it’s, it’s near where my parents live in Swindon. So [01:31:40] yeah, like I, I needed to get a, I’m not gonna move into there, but I wanted to jump [01:31:45] on the property ladder. So I got a house, but it was a really doer upper. It was absolutely written off. The owners [01:31:50] died, um, two years. So they didn’t live there for two years. They were in old people’s home. They died [01:31:55] and it got sold.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re kind of doing build in public, right? Like, yeah, yeah, it’s step by step.

Ali Al Hassan: Exactly. [01:32:00] Yeah. So done the driveway doing the heating electrics. But that’s what life’s about. Honestly, life’s just [01:32:05] about new journeys. Um, I’m getting involved in investing. Like I love investing [01:32:10] crypto. Um, no, just, just literally finding financial investing and funds and stuff. Um, [01:32:15] when the, when the Covid, um, uh, bubble happened [01:32:20] for, for six months when everyone stopped working, um, the practices closed for [01:32:25] about six months or so. Uh, I took the bounce back loan and I stuck it in airline stocks against [01:32:30] the advice of my, um, accountant. Uh, but, uh, it [01:32:35] wasn’t even my idea. My dad’s friend works for Intel in their investment division, and I was like, [01:32:40] look, man, airline stocks have plummeted. No one’s flying. I was like, why don’t you just why [01:32:45] don’t I buy airline stocks? And, um, he was like, yeah, here’s a few American things [01:32:50] I’d look at, but he’s like, you’re not putting a lot of money in, are you? I was like, no, I put the whole 50 K bounce back loan [01:32:55] in. Um, and, uh, at that time, I had not a [01:33:00] clue what I was doing, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but you got the.

Ali Al Hassan: You know, about leverage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So I didn’t, [01:33:05] so I made an account not knowing that I was 20 times leveraged, [01:33:10] which is the that’s just on that particular platform. That’s [01:33:15] just how they start you off.

Payman Langroudi: So you made a lot of money very quickly and got addicted, completely addicted. So that’s [01:33:20] what happened. So I’ve not told you this story.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve not told you this story, but um, yeah, so [01:33:25] I’ll finish it. So I put this, um, I put it into airline stocks and [01:33:30] um, I just remember the stock going down a little bit further, but my 50 [01:33:35] k went to 20 K and I’m like, what’s happened here? And I’m like doomsday scenario. I [01:33:40] lose all of this. Look, if I lost all of this money, I knew in a year or two I’d earn it back. So it’s not the end of the world. Did you.

Payman Langroudi: Ever stop? [01:33:45]

Ali Al Hassan: I remember speaking to my brother and I was like, bro, should I just take it out and just take this 20 out? I can [01:33:50] earn the 30 back in whatever. A year ago, he was like, no, bro. In for a penny. In for a pound. [01:33:55] Let’s see what happens. And then it was the first year of Covid. And do you remember when, [01:34:00] um, they started saying that after the summer that by Christmas everything will be normal? Obviously [01:34:05] the opposite happened, but towards the end of summer, everyone was like the waves kind [01:34:10] of gone. Covid, although it took three, four years in that first year, halfway through the [01:34:15] first year, they were like, by end of year, it’s going to be gone. Everything’s fine. Sentiment just kind of rose. And [01:34:20] um, yeah, like I, it [01:34:25] shot up. Yeah. Like crazy. Like, um, [01:34:30] mortgages were paid off. Um, got my dream car. That’s when [01:34:35] I got the black Gt-r. Um, um, and uh.

Payman Langroudi: From that one investment. [01:34:40] Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: My brother, my brother, my brother quit, my dad retired and [01:34:45] my brother quit medicine.

Payman Langroudi: You were massively leveraged on this 20.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, I was [01:34:50] 20 x Leveraged. So if you’re if your if your money’s was going to go up 10%, [01:34:55] instead, it’s going to go up ten times 20. So 200%. Okay. And, and [01:35:00] there was, there was a decent doubled. There was a decent like needle shift. Yeah. Like, like, [01:35:05] yeah, like three like, like it kind of like three exed almost. And then, [01:35:10] um, me and my brother became traders for a little bit. So remember I’m still not working [01:35:15] and neither can my brother. My brother sees this money come in and it just seems like, um, it [01:35:20] seems like it’s just on, um, uh, like a video game. It’s crazy. My dad just retires. [01:35:25] Yeah. So, so early. I’m not working anymore.

Payman Langroudi: You guys are good.

Ali Al Hassan: And, uh, [01:35:30] my brother, he was, he was doing he wanted to be an ophthalmologist. So he went in his second year. And [01:35:35] he was one of those very stud, like he’s, you know, you have to do all these poster presentations and you’ve got to be very nerdy [01:35:40] and like, kiss up to the consultants, but you have to do that to get into these specialities. And, um, [01:35:45] he was like, button this. He, and he just started working. Um, [01:35:50] he just started doing A&E. He became one of those A&E doctors for four night shifts [01:35:55] a week or three night shifts a week is like the same money as what a consultant earns, which is crazy, [01:36:00] by the way. But but I guess it depends if you’re money motivated or what you want to go into, but you earn the same money as [01:36:05] a doctor doing three night shifts a week as what a consultant salary is after working [01:36:10] for like, yeah, consultants earn base from like 80, but you earn 83 nights a week, you’re doing [01:36:15] 12 hour shifts, but you get paid like, you know, like there’s a shortage of doctors supply demand. Yeah, exactly. And [01:36:20] you get these big like locum rates, right? And he just started learning trading. So my brother’s a full time trader [01:36:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: Is he?

Ali Al Hassan: He’s. Yeah. So and this is going back to I can’t even remember the first year of Covid. [01:36:30] Was it 2019.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: 2020, 1920. Uh, because it started in March. [01:36:35] Right. I’m just trying to think if that was March 2019, March.

Payman Langroudi: 2020.

Ali Al Hassan: 2020. So it was that first year [01:36:40] anyway. So, um, we at that time, I’m like, I’m still doing dentistry [01:36:45] because I enjoy it, but I’m literally seeing patients in between. I have financial positions. [01:36:50] And um, at this time we didn’t know it, but, um, we, [01:36:55] we sold that, by the way, um, my brother, I took like half the money out, [01:37:00] thank God, because you’re gonna hear the rest of the story. Um, and, uh, we [01:37:05] had no experience with trading at this point, but we were just, uh, at that time, everyone had money. [01:37:10] Same reason why the Dental boom happened and loads of retail investors started investing, had [01:37:15] the same idea as me. Yeah. So pretty much whatever you buy would go up because [01:37:20] it was on a wave, right? And me and my brother were on Reddit. We’ve always been like kind of computer [01:37:25] nerds, gaming nerves. So we were on that Wall Street bets and we would just read the top [01:37:30] post that most people have liked it. Let’s buy this. It’s half a cent, and [01:37:35] some of these things were going up to like 4 or $5, uh, penny stocks. The reason we got involved [01:37:40] with penny stocks is my family’s like quite religious and my brother’s like, listen, leveraging is haram is [01:37:45] not allowed. You’re taking. You’re taking a loan. And. But the amount of money we’d made, normal [01:37:50] investing just felt like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there’s.

Ali Al Hassan: No.

Payman Langroudi: It was on steroids doing. [01:37:55]

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. So we. So then we found penny stocks. Penny stocks is like Wolf of Wall Street where [01:38:00] there’s legit stocks, which are like half a cent and people just nothing’s [01:38:05] happening with it, but people just pump it up together. If you can find a big enough group of people, they’ll [01:38:10] invest in it and it’ll go to like 3 or $4. And at this time, everyone was putting money [01:38:15] into the stock market.

Payman Langroudi: Someone had money.

Ali Al Hassan: So that was happening on steroids. And also people couldn’t go to work. Yeah, [01:38:20] yeah. You’re sitting in front of your computer. So you know, when you’ve always fancied yourself a trader, you’re going to do it now because [01:38:25] you’ve got nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Else to do. I’ve been there. I’ve been there. Yeah. Yeah. The problem with it, you feel like Gordon Gekko [01:38:30] when things are going up. Yeah. You feel so good.

Ali Al Hassan: So for the whole year.

Payman Langroudi: So, so.

Ali Al Hassan: So moving through that [01:38:35] year because it ended in February. But um, we, my brother, [01:38:40] um, literally went from like a five figure account to a seven figure [01:38:45] account. I had a seven figure account and we like. This is crazy. Our friends are [01:38:50] calling us like, uh, what? Like the world just felt like [01:38:55] a different place. It was for six months. February hit and we genuinely [01:39:00] thought, I’ll show you the screenshots after, but we genuinely thought, um, we couldn’t go [01:39:05] wrong. We were like, this is crazy. Every bet we’re making is spiralling. It’s either [01:39:10] we’re like, a bad case scenario is we’re making 20, 30%. A good case scenario is we’re like [01:39:15] 4 or 5 X our money. We have no concept of risk. We’ve not learnt or studied this [01:39:20] this stuff at all in any way. And then February comes around, people start going back to work [01:39:25] and um, the big climb down happens and we watched our [01:39:30] positions drop over a period of like 2 or 3 months by little drips at a time. We could have taken the money [01:39:35] out. We didn’t, but I watched seven figures go back down [01:39:40] to five figures over time. Just the pride of it, you know, I know I’m right. It’s [01:39:45] going to go up and we’re going to make more. I’m not I’m not taking half the money now. It’s just gonna just the pride [01:39:50] of it. And I’ve still got that just kind of sitting there like [01:39:55] I, if you can, I, I’m just going to show you something for a second if I can. We’re [01:40:00] not going to put it on the thing.

Payman Langroudi: But the problem is that the number of when you see the highest figure, [01:40:05] you kind of peg yourself to the highest. Yeah, exactly. Every other figure just seems incorrect [01:40:10] after that.

Ali Al Hassan: And so, and so my, my brother was like, um, when that happened, [01:40:15] then my brother. So luckily we took a lot of money out just from the initial thing. And very lucky for that. Um, [01:40:20] but, uh, my brother’s like, I’m actually going to learn this now full time. So he [01:40:25] just started doing. Yeah. So he properly sat down and he’s been doing it for years and now he’s doing it, he’s, [01:40:30] um, he’s, he’s, he’s pretty, he’s profitable now. And I’ve been investing [01:40:35] a lot of my money with him. Um, and, and in other funds like index, [01:40:40] I’ve got involved with index funds and, you know, like when you put your money in the S&P and it goes up 10% [01:40:45] and you’re like, if you do that for like 20, 30 years, it adds up to a lot of money. A lot of people don’t think about investing. [01:40:50] I’ve got so many dentists into it as well. Just put a little bit of money aside, max out your Isa, [01:40:55] tax free up, use family members as well. Um, you know, and [01:41:00] that money will kind of just multiply, multiply, multiply, and that will be like your nest egg. Um, but [01:41:05] we enjoy investing, but um, the amount of shits and giggles investments we made. Um, I [01:41:10] have to show you this.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you do that? What comes to [01:41:15] mind when I say, what’s the best lecture you’ve ever been to? The best lecture.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve ever been [01:41:20] to. The best lecture, the most. The biggest [01:41:25] lecture that comes to mind is not necessarily the best lecture. It was like a shock, but [01:41:30] it was our first anatomy lecture by Professor Moxham at Cardiff. Uh, [01:41:35] for people just left. They just started crying and left. We literally [01:41:40] lost four people from dental school in that lecture and I remember trying to write things down. [01:41:45] I’m like, what the hell is going on? Like, I’m, I’m not in school no more. Yeah. This is like [01:41:50] a space stock that I bought. How much down I am on that. Look how much down I am. The [01:41:55] amount of shits and giggles. Yeah. No, but that’s just what. That’s how much that’s where the [01:42:00] what? The fluctuations I’m talking about. I’ve got multiple just fluctuations like that. Um, [01:42:05] I’m back to dentistry now, but my brother does that stuff. But honestly.

Payman Langroudi: He’s an older doctor at all. No. [01:42:10] Interesting.

Ali Al Hassan: No. So now he just trades. Um yeah. He just trades and like, you know, [01:42:15] that that kind of, um, trading lifestyle and I give my money to him and he invests it [01:42:20] and um.

Payman Langroudi: Any other course or lecture come to mind.

Ali Al Hassan: So, uh, [01:42:25] course or lecture I really liked there’s a course called, um, have [01:42:30] you heard of, uh, assif. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Business course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [01:42:35] yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Squadron strategy. Really good. So there’s an FQ course and a Pip [01:42:40] course. Um, I think people get really hung up over the physical courses like [01:42:45] how to do this, how to do that. I think mindset and, um, having [01:42:50] systems is five times all of that stuff, all of that stuff. So I’ve, I’ve [01:42:55] mentored dentists who’ve literally tripled or quadrupled their income, not [01:43:00] from being any better at dentistry, but just to understanding, first of all, breaking [01:43:05] their limiting beliefs. Second of all, making sure that they’re communicating better with their patients [01:43:10] to, um, make sure that they know everything about their oral health and, and [01:43:15] positioning themselves better, um, getting better case acceptance and [01:43:20] zoning their diaries. So they actually have the diary space to do what they’re already doing, but 3 [01:43:25] or 4 times more treatment mix to, um, like not treatment mix. [01:43:30] And they’re doing the same thing and they’re literally double or tripling their the income? It’s crazy. Um, [01:43:35] I can go. So I’ve got, um, a friend of mine, very close. He loves doing crowns. [01:43:40] He’s like, I hate doing composite. I hate doing, um, uh, Invisalign, [01:43:45] but I do like doing indirect. I do a little bit of indirect this and that.

Ali Al Hassan: And I was like, oh, cool. Um, so how many [01:43:50] crowns are you doing? Uh, like a week? He’s like, I do, I do like one every day. [01:43:55] And I know he hasn’t. He’s, I’ve talked to him before. He’s in an old demographic kind of area. And I was like, how many [01:44:00] exams are you doing a day? He’s like, I’m doing, um, about, uh, 15 [01:44:05] to 18 examinations every single day on like old people. I was like, [01:44:10] I might be wrong on this, but if I’m seeing 15 to 18 old people [01:44:15] every day, I see very I see 2 or 3 consultations. I’m totally different to him. But I was like, if I’m [01:44:20] really being honest, if I’m seeing, uh, ten old people’s teeth every single [01:44:25] day, I reckon I would find a use case where you need, [01:44:30] you know, a crown maybe I would say, you know, probably ten times on ten patients. [01:44:35] Like there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s going to be big fillings there that ultimately will last longer if they’ve [01:44:40] got cuspal coverage. There’s going to be, um, failing restorations. There’s going to be [01:44:45] cracked teeth, there’s going to be this and that. And, and um.

Payman Langroudi: So it seemed low to you.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. [01:44:50] He, he wasn’t, he just, he wasn’t. And I, and he was like, um, he was like, yeah, I [01:44:55] mean, when people have these big fillings, I just kind of just leave it and I don’t say anything. And I was like, um, [01:45:00] when you’re doing an examination, it’s so important to be thorough [01:45:05] with it and letting patients know exactly what’s going on. Because the flip side is [01:45:10] you’re actually, I was like, to him, I was like, by not telling these patients that there is an option of a crown, [01:45:15] you’re, you’re not only missing it, you’re being negligent. They could turn around. That tooth could fracture. [01:45:20] You never offered it. And let’s say they they could make an issue for you. You need [01:45:25] to lay everything out on the table. So many dentists don’t even kind of lay [01:45:30] it out, or they have a self-limiting belief that someone’s come in with, [01:45:35] with, uh, you know, six amalgams in their back teeth or all and, you know, evidentially, [01:45:40] if you crown those teeth, they will last longer in my opinion. Um, [01:45:45] and, you know, or, or they have cracks in them, but you see that there’s six [01:45:50] of them and you don’t want to tell the patient because you’re like, I don’t want to stump up this big sum of money because [01:45:55] I’m feel uncomfortable having that conversation.

Payman Langroudi: But Frank Speer talks about it in, [01:46:00] in, in the terms of like, if your mother goes to a cardiologist, yeah, you want [01:46:05] the cardiologist to give you the full story. Yeah, just.

Ali Al Hassan: Lay it all out and you will be shocked by [01:46:10] how many people actually want you to help them.

Payman Langroudi: But the, you know, if the hand [01:46:15] on heart truth on whether or not you’re on lay is going to make this tooth [01:46:20] last longer. Yeah. Or a crown or a crown. Yeah. It needs to be [01:46:25] nuanced. It needs to be nuanced in insomuch as you know, the amalgam has been there for 30 [01:46:30] years. You take that amalgam out, you cause a problem sometimes, right? And it’s, you know, this [01:46:35] is this is consent, right? This is what consent is.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. But give them the option.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Give them the option. Um, [01:46:40] and um, just by laying out the options, getting an intra oral camera, taking pictures. [01:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: Scanner. Right. Yeah. Scanner.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Or you have.

Payman Langroudi: You bought your own scanner?

Ali Al Hassan: No, I’ve got the practices.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone [01:46:50] has.

Ali Al Hassan: It. Yeah. Yeah, everyone has one. But, um, if in terms of, [01:46:55] uh. But you can get a £30 intraoral camera if.

Payman Langroudi: You do you see jazz, jazz. Galati just did a thing. [01:47:00] Uh, I think he might have even selling it. He’s got this like a pair of glasses that has [01:47:05] a screen in it. And then the intraoral camera comes up on the screen in the glasses.

Ali Al Hassan: Oh, [01:47:10] yeah, that seems like an amazing idea. Yeah, exactly. But but for just to any normal [01:47:15] associate, one amazing tip, two amazing. A few amazing tips. Get, um, get a camera, [01:47:20] start taking pictures of your work. Non-negotiable. Just do that. Everything will get better. Your [01:47:25] work gets better because you see it time and time out. You see what didn’t go well. So next time you do [01:47:30] it, you’ll kind of work on it. Um, second thing is, is um get [01:47:35] an intra oral camera. Yeah. Um, TIFF’s really big on this too is, uh, when you start showing [01:47:40] there’s a difference between you telling and you showing. If you can’t afford a scanner, your practice isn’t going to buy a scanner. [01:47:45] You can get a £30 Intraoral camera that will USB in. It’ll be fine. It comes with [01:47:50] the sleeves, everything. Um, and, uh, don’t be afraid [01:47:55] to just lay it out for the patient. It’s not for you to decide what a high sum is or a low [01:48:00] sum is. Just make sure you’ve laid out all the information. Um, you’ve given your suggestions and [01:48:05] the options and just do that for every single patient.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, do you, for instance, give a patient [01:48:10] a treatment plan at the end of the examination? Yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So I’ll be like, I [01:48:15] think we should do this. They’ll come in saying, I, I, this is what I want to achieve. Um, [01:48:20] you active listening, you need to listen to them. You need to really hear what their problem is, what [01:48:25] they want. Um, make sure that they position yourself well. Position yourself [01:48:30] well. Means make sure um, you need to you are an expert in your field, [01:48:35] but you need to make sure you show the patient that. And that comes from your nonverbal communication, [01:48:40] showing the patient you’ve listened to them by repeating the information back to them and you [01:48:45] see them nodding. So, so subconsciously they’re ticking that box that this guy understands me, this, which you do, [01:48:50] but you need to show that to the patient. Otherwise they won’t trust you to do the treatment to help them. Yeah. Um, there’s [01:48:55] so many little things like this that I’ve kind of incorporated in the psychological game is [01:49:00] so strong. Remember, the ultimate aim is to help the patient, but you need to help the patient, help themselves [01:49:05] to trust you and believe in you if you believe you’re doing the right thing, which we all do. Um, [01:49:10] so, uh, yeah, get get the patient in position yourself. Well, make sure [01:49:15] you hear the problem. Be clear about what the problem is. Then you do your clinical stuff. [01:49:20] Um, communicate back to the patient regarding what’s going on, and then tie it off by [01:49:25] saying, this is how that’s going to fix your problem. And these are the treatments that I recommend. I’m [01:49:30] not a you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this. It’s your choice. Yeah. [01:49:35] It’s not that’s personally, I think that’s not, it’s not helping you and it’s not helping [01:49:40] the patient.

Payman Langroudi: I think as he talks about this. Right.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that’s what going back to that course there [01:49:45] they they they got off their bum. They left home. They if you go [01:49:50] do you go to Asda for no reason. No, no. You go to Asda because you need to buy something [01:49:55] there at the dentist because they want you to give them your opinion. Yeah. Um [01:50:00] I’m very much give give your opinion and back yourself up. If you, [01:50:05] if you start letting the patient run around with um and choosing everything, I think that’s [01:50:10] how a lot of people run into issues and problems because then they’re doing something that they don’t [01:50:15] fully back themselves. Um, and then that’s going to snowball into incidents with patients. [01:50:20] You know, I do so much, um, composite bonding. I never [01:50:25] discuss shade with patients.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I literally just say, do [01:50:30] you. I listen to what they say. Yeah. They either say I want. [01:50:35] I can’t remember the last time I got shade about. We don’t even talk about colours. They either say they want [01:50:40] really white teeth and I know what shade that is or they say they, they [01:50:45] um want composite bonding and they’re like they like said and said person. I use [01:50:50] three shades. I literally use three shades. Um, the whitest of the white shade, the, [01:50:55] the, the, the normal composite bonding shade. That’s quite white, but it’s not the whitest [01:51:00] of the white. Yeah. And then the slightly toned down BL for kind of just [01:51:05] above B1 version for the people who aren’t natural, just make it simple. That’s yeah, that’s that’s [01:51:10] the tone down. That’s the tone down in my, in my demographic. That’s the tone down me and you are far away from [01:51:15] that, by the way. We need to, we need to get some whitening done. After this, you should do a podcast [01:51:20] while whitening, but we won’t be able to talk. Um, but, uh, and they, um, they. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: They did discuss whether you’re going to do with you decide yourself.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. I’m like, yeah, I, I just do [01:51:30] it just, um, take it in your hands.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever done bonding in the patients hated it.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve [01:51:35] had um.

Payman Langroudi: Too bulky sometimes.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had, uh, 90% [01:51:40] of people, uh, half the people are shocked, but then happy [01:51:45] a few weeks later and half the people are happy straight away. I’ve had a handful of cases where they’ve just started crying [01:51:50] and they’ve said, take it off. But from me, from myself, I’m happy with [01:51:55] how it looks. And I wouldn’t let you look at the teeth if I wasn’t happy. So [01:52:00] I know you walking around with these teeth is going to be a compliment to you and not a detriment. And I believe [01:52:05] that to my core. And I’ve refused and said, look, I’m I’m not going to I could take it off. I’m not going [01:52:10] to give me two weeks. Yeah, yeah. I’ve, I’ve. And both in both [01:52:15] of those cases, I’ve not had to take the composite off. They’ve come back and been fine and I’ve not [01:52:20] touched would ever had to. Um. Yeah. Just do it and just take it off. You know, like those turkey [01:52:25] cases where I had a patient message me yesterday who went to Turkey, got it done, hated it. And she’s like, they’re taking it all off [01:52:30] in the morning. I’ve had to do that for other people who’ve been elsewhere, but I’ve [01:52:35] never had no, none of my patients who’ve had composite bonding have gone back to not bonding. Uh, luckily. [01:52:40] Um.

Payman Langroudi: And do you recognise the sort of the fragility [01:52:45] of composite and. Yeah, absolutely. It’s not the best material [01:52:50] in the world.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s not, but it works.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very unforgiving, very unforgiving, um, [01:52:55] material.

Ali Al Hassan: It’s unforgiving. Again, if you’ve not put in the hours.

Payman Langroudi: You take time on each, each [01:53:00] tooth like longer than, longer than people think. Right to get.

Ali Al Hassan: It. So I’ll do, I’ll [01:53:05] do ten teeth, composite veneers, ten teeth. I’ll do, but it’s slow down over time. [01:53:10] But now I’ll do. Um, sorry, it’s sped up over time, but these days I’ll do ten teeth [01:53:15] freehand. I will do in probably about an hour and a half to two hours. No way. Yeah, I’ll do 20 [01:53:20] teeth in a morning, like from an 830 to and and that’s like with time to spare. But [01:53:25] it used to be a full arch in a full morning when I did that mini smile case, I think it was eight teeth. Yeah, [01:53:30] it was the whole morning. And for the longest time it was like that. But um, you, [01:53:35] you say you, you mentioned that it is technique sensitive and everything, but just [01:53:40] put the 10,000 hours in, everything becomes predictable, uh, in the scope [01:53:45] of time. Once you’ve done it enough times and you just understand it works. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:53:50] the key to it then.

Ali Al Hassan: The key to it is.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the keys to.

Ali Al Hassan: So the keys [01:53:55] to it is, is use a material that works in your hand. So Venus Pearl has always [01:54:00] worked very well for me. So I’ve always used Venus Pearl. Um, and stick [01:54:05] with it. Um, go on a course which teaches you more like the full [01:54:10] arch approach, if that’s what you want to do. Which mini smile makeover gave me the confidence to do that and [01:54:15] have that case lined up?

Payman Langroudi: Many of your cases are injection moulding compared to.

Ali Al Hassan: I [01:54:20] don’t injection mould at all anymore. Yeah, injection moulding was like a season. I probably did [01:54:25] like 100 120 cases.

Payman Langroudi: But then do you feel like you don’t have enough control? [01:54:30]

Ali Al Hassan: I kind of, um. No, no, no, it was just it was just business lab fee. Oh, [01:54:35] no lab fee. Now, I was able to kind of I was able to recreate it 80% [01:54:40] as well for you. Once you see those teeth shapes so many times [01:54:45] and then you’re doing the modifications after anyway, you just, you’ll just get an eyeball for it. [01:54:50] So what I would say is actually injection mould teaches you the free hand. It’s almost the training [01:54:55] wheels for the free hand. Um, and then when you see those shapes so [01:55:00] many times. Yeah. So, you know, I don’t actually, um, you know, I finish my teeth upside [01:55:05] down, you know, all the, you know, all the smile of yours you see On [01:55:10] the video or whatever when you see them. I’ve not seen the teeth yet. This [01:55:15] way around until the patient sees them. That’s one weird thing about me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t bring the patient up to check. [01:55:20]

Ali Al Hassan: I’ve never seen them until I see them in the mirror on my mum’s life. Every [01:55:25] finish you’ve seen, I’ve finished with them like this. And I’ve been behind them upside [01:55:30] down, taking the picture, sat them up. And then we do the reveal. And that’s the reveal. And [01:55:35] I see them the same time as them.

Payman Langroudi: I’m shocked.

Ali Al Hassan: But it’s what you’re used to.

Payman Langroudi: I’m shocked. [01:55:40]

Ali Al Hassan: I’m used to seeing teeth upside down. I’m used to seeing teeth upside down.

Payman Langroudi: You need to bring him up to.

Ali Al Hassan: It [01:55:45] kind of makes sense, right? But no, I’ve not needed [01:55:50] to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s your. It’s your superpower.

Ali Al Hassan: When when I see. I think what it is is when I see them smile before [01:55:55] I can kind of see where the lens needs to go and not go. And I have the memory to remember that when I’m [01:56:00] doing it that way. Um, and so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got something on the screen you’re copying?

Ali Al Hassan: Sometimes I’ll refer [01:56:05] to if it’s difficult. We’re changing a lot. I will get my camera and look at their smile picture and [01:56:10] I’m like, wait, how much do we need to add to this incisor I’m doing upside down, but when the patient [01:56:15] sees their teeth right side up, that’s first time I see the teeth right side up every single time. Um, [01:56:20] we’ve genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: Come to it’s.

Ali Al Hassan: Whatever your quirks are, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [01:56:25] come to the end of our time. I’m gonna, I’m gonna end it with the usual questions we ask everyone, okay, fantasy [01:56:30] dinner party three guests. Dead or alive. [01:56:35] Who who are you thinking?

Ali Al Hassan: Fantasy dinner party. [01:56:40] Um. Elon Musk is going to be there. Uh, [01:56:45] Mbes. Mohammed bin Salman [01:56:50] is going to be there. Oh, yeah. Um, who else do I really? There’s [01:56:55] loads of people I’d want to talk to. Who else would I want to talk to? Um. Just [01:57:00] someone who’s very, very [01:57:05] Accomplished. Um, I’d [01:57:10] also want to. They’re the two that stick out to me. I almost can’t even, like, think of a [01:57:15] third, but I really want to meet and speak to Elon Musk. Um, and [01:57:20] I, I would, I, I’ve always like, I mean, I would say another guy is, um, [01:57:25] uh, a guy called faker. He’s a guy, uh, he’s the, he’s the biggest guy in [01:57:30] a video game that I spend all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Playing.

Ali Al Hassan: And he’s like the goat. The best ever, unquestionably. [01:57:35] Um, they’ve done a world championship for this game over the last.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how [01:57:40] high did you get in the rankings? Be as high as like the 15 year old boys.

Ali Al Hassan: When I [01:57:45] was younger I was much better. And now I’m just like stuck in middle league. But it’s fine. Like I understand [01:57:50] like it’s it’s it’s all good. Um. Um, [01:57:55] I just, I just feel like he’d be very interesting.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a funny guy to speak to. One of my friends met [01:58:00] him. Yeah. He liked him. He liked him.

Ali Al Hassan: But yeah, he loves gaming too.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Ali Al Hassan: Right? Yeah. He loves her. [01:58:05] That’s he. The Saudis love video games. They grow up playing video games. Call of Duty, [01:58:10] all of that stuff. They’re very big on that. That’s why they’re importing a lot of their sports washing a lot of the video games [01:58:15] over there. Um, but I just think it’s a very interesting part of the world to be in. There’s [01:58:20] a few Leaders you could talk to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting what he’s doing with Saudi.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, yeah. But but also [01:58:25] just talking about that whole geography as a whole, like sometimes I think, what do these people like know that we [01:58:30] do not know? Um, you know, and like what the elites know that we don’t know all this stuff, [01:58:35] all this stuff coming out with like the Epstein files. I find that stuff really interesting. Like [01:58:40] I, I, I, I follow all of that stuff, um, with America and, [01:58:45] uh, yeah, I just like kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like a news junkie? Do you like.

Ali Al Hassan: Not a news junkie, [01:58:50] but more in terms of like conspiracy theories.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Me too.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. So it’s not even [01:58:55] like everyday news. It’s more like stuff to do with conspiracies where it’s like stuff’s been hidden and [01:59:00] people don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common these days. Yeah, it’s very common these days.

Ali Al Hassan: The hidden world. I’m very interested in the hidden [01:59:05] world.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s a funny thing.

Ali Al Hassan: And I think over the last few years, I’ve seen part of The Hidden World from a lot of these [01:59:10] travels and meeting lots of people. I’ve seen things that I didn’t know existed. Um, I’ve had experiences [01:59:15] that I didn’t think were possible, um, without going into too much detail, but, um, you [01:59:20] start seeing that there’s stuff out there that you didn’t even fathom as an experience, [01:59:25] you know, growing up, you didn’t even know if it’s existed.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny because like, I [01:59:30] don’t know, I was a conspiracy theorist when it wasn’t fashionable to be conspiracy theorists. And I say [01:59:35] to my friends, guys, they’re recording everything. They’re like, your phone is constantly recording [01:59:40] you or something. Yeah, yeah. And a couple of my friends did an intervention. They were like, dude, we’re [01:59:45] really worried about you. This sort of thing. Really? Yeah. Ben.

Ali Al Hassan: Did you put a sticker on your [01:59:50] laptop? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I saw. I saw so many. Like, I saw Bill gates sticker on his lap.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah, [01:59:55] exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then. But then that Snowden event happened. Yeah, [02:00:00] it’s all true. When they said no, it is actually recording. Right. So why not? So I went [02:00:05] back to my buddies, my two guys who did the intervention. I said, what are you thinking now? And they’re like, what? And I said, [02:00:10] well, you know, Snowden and, and they didn’t they didn’t even like apologise.

Ali Al Hassan: Some [02:00:15] people prefer their heads in the sand and everyone’s different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some people just, you know, [02:00:20] um, silence is golden. Ignorance is bliss, right? That’s true. Um. Yeah. [02:00:25] Crazy. Crazy.

Payman Langroudi: How do you how would you like to be remembered?

Ali Al Hassan: How [02:00:30] would I, I don’t, I don’t really even fancy being remembered. I don’t that’s not something I’m. I will [02:00:35] be forgotten. And I’m okay with being forgotten. But what I want to know is for me, I had an amazing life, [02:00:40] I did good, and I looked after my family. That’s. If I can do that. And if I’m ticking those boxes, [02:00:45] like right now, I’m happy remembered. You’re going to be gone. You’re not even going to experience it. Think about it. [02:00:50] So why even give effort?

Payman Langroudi: It becomes a big thing for people, you know, like, why does Trump want a [02:00:55] peace prize that your legacy?

Ali Al Hassan: I think if it.

Payman Langroudi: You as you get older, [02:01:00] it becomes a big thing for.

Ali Al Hassan: Me. I’ve never had I’ve never been an egotistical person. Like I genuinely. I’m [02:01:05] happy to be like, I’m the I, I’m, I’m just in my own bubble. I’m [02:01:10] living my life like I’m, you know, because people are like, oh, I want to set up my kids. And I’m like, [02:01:15] the opposite of that. I’m like, no, I want them to have, they’re going to have nothing. They’ve got to start from zero. I’m [02:01:20] not trying to, I think, um, I focus on my life. I want to have the best [02:01:25] I want to be on in years future. I just want to say that I lived a life that probably [02:01:30] like no one else, uh, or like, you know, I lived the top 0.0, [02:01:35] nought, nought, 1% life. Not like Elon Musk level. Um, he’s probably [02:01:40] done some crazy stuff. Um, but obviously and, and obviously on the good side, but I just want [02:01:45] to have experienced things, been places, done things. Um, you know, because you, only you, [02:01:50] you get one shot at it and then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re definitely squeezing the lemon man. You’re definitely squeezing.

Ali Al Hassan: I [02:01:55] want to squeeze it till there’s not a drop left.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. I like that. Long may it continue, buddy. It’s [02:02:00] lovely to see you. Yeah. I’m enjoying.

Ali Al Hassan: I’ll see you again soon.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ali Al Hassan: Yeah. Ministry of sounds [02:02:05] going to be good.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right. We’re going to have a bloody good time. Amazing. Thanks for doing this. [02:02:10]

Ali Al Hassan: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [02:02:15] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [02:02:20] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [02:02:25] Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:02:30] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from [02:02:35] me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [02:02:40] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [02:02:45] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [02:02:50] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [02:02:55] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the Instagram page at minimalist dot join [00:00:25] us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:50] Ashley King and Sophie Lovitt onto the podcast from Pearl AI. [00:00:55] Um, nice to have you. Finally, both of you. Would you both do [00:01:00] at Pearl? What’s your job title and what’s yours?

Ashley King: Do you want. Job title [00:01:05] or what we actually do? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. Both.

Ashley King: Well, I mean, this is the I [00:01:10] would say probably everyone. Everyone says this about working [00:01:15] at Start-ups that you wear a million hats. Yeah. So I lead partnerships internationally, [00:01:20] but it’s so much more than that. I would say beyond that, a lot of go to market [00:01:25] strategy. For example, right now I just came back from Australia. We’re kicking off [00:01:30] there. We’ve been there for a couple of years, but now we’re really focusing on it. So looking for hire, getting new [00:01:35] partners out there with integrations, etc.. Sophie. Sophie, I feel like your role has changed [00:01:40] a million times at Pearl, but nonetheless, you’re very valuable.

Sophie Lovett: Who am I today? Um, yeah, [00:01:45] actually, Australia’s great, isn’t it? We kind of went into all markets and we’ve stripped it back. [00:01:50] And I know you’re working across every single time zone at the moment. And so I’ve just changed. [00:01:55] My roles just changed. I’m now doing the international market development. [00:02:00] I’m leading the team there. So this is exciting, but it doesn’t [00:02:05] mean that I’m not doing any of the old things I was doing. As Ashley said, we’re we’re [00:02:10] a Start-Up within a Start-Up. So we’re doing a lot. We’re doing the sales, we’re doing the go to market. We’re doing [00:02:15] the partnerships, but we have a fantastic team behind us.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:20] both of you on a plane a lot.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I’d say Ashley’s got more air miles than [00:02:25] me. Yeah.

Ashley King: I, when I, when I was flying back actually yesterday from, we were at [00:02:30] a wedding in Greece for one of our partners that we work with. And it was fantastic. [00:02:35] But I, I was thinking, how many hours have I been on a plane in the last month and I calculated [00:02:40] it’s over 100. Wow. Yeah. Which is insane.

Sophie Lovett: You did something quite smart, didn’t [00:02:45] you? You went to the to Australia and then the US, and then you’ve ended up back in the middle. So [00:02:50] it’s almost like you’ve outdone the jet lag.

Ashley King: Yeah. I don’t even my body doesn’t know what time [00:02:55] it is. Sometimes I wake up in the hotel room and I’m like, where? Where am I?

Payman Langroudi: When you go somewhere, do you do you [00:03:00] strictly keep it as work or do you like.

Ashley King: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: I give it a couple of days either side or.

Ashley King: I try to [00:03:05] write. I don’t I think I don’t want to look back at this time and regret having to [00:03:10] go to all these pretty cool places and not do things beyond that. Another really great thing, [00:03:15] and Sophie and I have done a lot of work travel together because we work on some of the same things, partners [00:03:20] specifically, and you really get embedded into the culture [00:03:25] when you’re going to see someone that works in a different country, like Norway is a great example. [00:03:30] Um, I knew nothing about Norway and I feel like I’ve really, truly started to understand [00:03:35] like how Norwegians think about certain things, their culture, their differences between, [00:03:40] you know, other, even Nordic countries.

Payman Langroudi: Norwegians are.

Ashley King: Cool. They’re cool. Yeah. And like they show [00:03:45] you around, you have a like guaranteed tour guide when you’re going for work. People love to show. [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: You, right? It’s different to real tourism, like to normal tourism because it’s a bit [00:03:55] the difference between like getting an Airbnb and a hotel.

Ashley King: This is it. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: You sort of feel more [00:04:00] part of it.

Ashley King: Yeah. I’m like, I know, I know, I’m down with the Norwegians, you know, like I know what their vibe is. [00:04:05]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but they don’t let everybody in. That’s the thing, you know, every country’s different, especially in the Nordics. They’re [00:04:10] so different even between Norway and Finland and Sweden. And, uh, there’s definitely [00:04:15] a feeling when you’re not quite in. And then when you’re in, it’s such a good feeling. And yeah. [00:04:20]

Ashley King: I think the ticket there is, at least in Norway, it was going to karaoke. Uh, that [00:04:25] seems to be my ticket with partners is like, let’s do a karaoke night and just [00:04:30] maybe take a few tequila shots.

Payman Langroudi: What makes the decision as to whether you work with a distributor [00:04:35] or whether you set up an office and it’s like a company owned office?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, I mean, how do you decide [00:04:40] we’re running so lean? And also we don’t, like I said, we don’t know the culture [00:04:45] of even dentists and what they’re looking for. Germany, great example. They’re very [00:04:50] scared of AI in that country. So we don’t speak the language. So right now internationally, [00:04:55] our default is distributor.

Payman Langroudi: But not here, for instance, not here. So [00:05:00] why is that? I mean, how did that work out?

Ashley King: Oh man. I mean what would you say Sophie?

Sophie Lovett: Because we’re [00:05:05] here. We’ve got we’ve got a team here. Um, and you know, it’s English [00:05:10] speaking. And so this was just a place where we could kind of have a natural [00:05:15] hub. But we’ve realised with that some of the nuances of the different countries that it’s really, really tricky. [00:05:20] Like you said, we thought we could just go to Germany and kind of replicate the strategy. Um, but [00:05:25] what works is just not one size fits all. And for example, our Netherlands dealer, we, [00:05:30] I don’t even know how we got in with him, but he is fantastic. Um, [00:05:35] but we, we just kind of have the strategy down here. We work really well with distributors [00:05:40] and suppliers here, but.

Ashley King: I think also time zones, like simply for the fact that [00:05:45] our, our main office is in LA. So working with Finland, for example. [00:05:50] It’s like a ten hour time difference. It’s kind of impossible to be successful doing that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:05:55] I had I had Officer Tan, who’s the founder, episode 203 about [00:06:00] must have been two and a half years ago. Yeah. And anyone who wants to know how Pearl came [00:06:05] about needs to listen to that episode. But let’s just summarise what what is [00:06:10] the product? It’s an AI enhanced radiograph interpreter. [00:06:15] Is that correct?

Sophie Lovett: I mean you couldn’t have said it better. Yeah. [00:06:20] Essentially what it’s doing is it is looking at radiographs. And it’s using [00:06:25] millions and millions of pieces of data and data points to be able to interpret greyscale, [00:06:30] to look at all sorts of variables and have a look at different pathologies. So [00:06:35] in a matter of seconds, you take the radiograph and the AI is going to appear. So we’re looking at not [00:06:40] just caries. We’re looking at bone loss. We’re looking at periapical radiolucency [00:06:45] and we’re looking at nerves. We’re looking at all sorts of different things. We’re We’re looking at being able to compare it over time as well. [00:06:50] But it’s here to help enhance the clinician. Right. [00:06:55] So, um, it’s like spell check. You know, it’s there as a support mechanism, [00:07:00] but where the human eye is limited to, I think 50 shades [00:07:05] of grey. Um, this can see hundreds, thousands. So it’s [00:07:10] really there as a second opinion, an assistant tool for reading those radiographs. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: But a communication tool too. Right. I mean, I don’t know. I haven’t practised [00:07:20] for a few years now, but you that sort of blank face of a patient when you show them an [00:07:25] X-ray.

Sophie Lovett: Right.

Payman Langroudi: And people pretend to understand what you’re saying, but it’s very difficult. Yeah. [00:07:30] Very difficult to see what’s going on. So would you say it’s more of a communication tool [00:07:35] or more of a diagnostic tool or both or what? What’s the story?

Ashley King: I would say it’s more patient [00:07:40] education. Yeah. And I think dentists forget that [00:07:45] non-clinical people, when they look at an X-ray, we have no clue what [00:07:50] is going on. Yeah, and I’m guilty of this even in my life, talking about AI with my friends, I’m [00:07:55] like, oh, well, okay, I thought this was, you know, beginner level knowledge. [00:08:00] And then I talked to my friends about certain AI tools that I’m using. And they’re just like, minds [00:08:05] are blown. So I think it’s very easy to forget when you’re deep into a field [00:08:10] that actually this is like, I don’t know, rocket science to [00:08:15] people, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: So my friend came home once and she [00:08:20] said to me, because she’s my old housemate, she said, my dentist has given me a filling. [00:08:25] I said, your dentist hasn’t given you a filling. You know, you’re not flossing. Uh, [00:08:30] uh, you know, you’re not maybe brushing the right amount of time, not using a fluoridated toothpaste. [00:08:35] You’ve kind of given yourself a filling. I then showed her the AI, not her own [00:08:40] radiograph, but just kind of an example. And it was that real eureka moment. There’s [00:08:45] a fantastic dentist in the north. Doctor Kunal Rai from Meliora Dental, and he posted something [00:08:50] yesterday on Instagram of an area of decay that hadn’t quite gone [00:08:55] past the enamel yet. So it was showing up on pearl as this yellow [00:09:00] blob. And then he put up a post saying the patient didn’t accept [00:09:05] treatment. Um, so he was looking at early preventative treatments. And now this area of decay had progressed [00:09:10] past the enamel into the dentine and beyond. So now the patient is [00:09:15] accepting treatment. But last year they hadn’t seen that the pearl, they hadn’t seen the colours. They hadn’t seen the tooth part segmentation. [00:09:20] So they just didn’t get it. So they didn’t work early enough to do something that would [00:09:25] have helped preserve the lifespan of that tooth.

Payman Langroudi: And then what about what are the [00:09:30] problems with it? I mean, false positives. False negatives.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean what’s [00:09:35] the rate of that? Have you got a rate of of errors that it makes.

Ashley King: It’s dependent on the image quality of course. [00:09:40] Yeah. So it’s hard to quantify that, but I mean, anyone that uses [00:09:45] AI knows that it doesn’t always get it right. Sure. So I say it’s like your GPS or [00:09:50] sorry, you call it satnav here. Um, it tells you where it thinks [00:09:55] you should go, but you’re still the one driving the car, which is why it’s called second opinion.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:10:00] Um, so we have some of the most fantastic minds at Pearl. [00:10:05] So we’ve got a computer vision team. They’ve just improved our caries model by [00:10:10] 13%. So when we’re looking at provided [00:10:15] the quality of the image is acceptable, we’re looking at about 9,394% [00:10:20] accuracy. But then within that with, as I said, we’ve just improved that by another [00:10:25] 13%. And so we’ve got some fantastic minds working on it. But the reason that it’s [00:10:30] not here to replace is because it’s not perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: That’s, you [00:10:35] know, it’s always going to have to work alongside a clinician and equally, you know, do you want a here is your [00:10:40] report from a computer? No. It has to still be delivered by the clinician. I like [00:10:45] the fact it’s not perfect because if you ask me, this is controversial. I’m going to say it.

Ashley King: I [00:10:50] like.

Sophie Lovett: It. I hope, I hope no one’s listening. I personally wouldn’t let [00:10:55] students have it straight out of university. I’m sorry.

Ashley King: That’s contrarian.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:11:00] Because I think people really need to cut their teeth on being able to read radiographs as well [00:11:05] and being critical of the AI. The reason that we [00:11:10] have approvals and we have certifications is because it has been proven [00:11:15] that when you work with the AI, the clinicians, the clinician, and, you know, [00:11:20] together they work better than if it was just one or separately. But I do really [00:11:25] think it’s important that we don’t just fully rely on something. Um, yeah. [00:11:30] So that’s, that’s, that’s my controversial opinion.

Ashley King: I, I will, I agree with you [00:11:35] to a certain level. So I think that it’s a good, It shouldn’t be the default. So for [00:11:40] example, now in university, everyone’s writing their essays, right? With ChatGPT or whatever [00:11:45] their LLM is. And personally, I wrote some very [00:11:50] long, robust research papers in uni. And I think that it taught me a lot. [00:11:55] So but I wish that I had ChatGPT to do two things. [00:12:00] One, like spell check and just maybe give some suggestions, but two, to do [00:12:05] the sources because that was the worst. But I think if I was a clinician that was just entering [00:12:10] the field, I would use it after I looked at it first, essentially as like you said, a spell check. [00:12:15]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And actually, I find that most clinicians are quite competitive anyway, which is great. You know, what [00:12:20] do you got to do. Get four A’s at a level now to become a dentist? Three. Three. Yeah. [00:12:25] Um so you know, they’re pretty good anyway and they’re quite competitive. So where [00:12:30] it takes ten 20s anyway for the AI to overlay, a lot of clinicians are [00:12:35] kind of competing with themselves. And then, you know, it comes through and it’s, oh, gosh, you know. Yeah, yeah, [00:12:40] it’s a.

Ashley King: Good way to think about.

Sophie Lovett: It. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because [00:12:45] what will happen to society because of AI is the [00:12:50] first time you can’t tell in 3 or 4 years time what life is going to be like.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, really. [00:12:55] But what about the industrial revolution? I mean, we.

Ashley King: Would have the internet when it came out. We didn’t know Uber [00:13:00] would exist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the rate of it is really quite crazy. My daughter says she wants to be a dentist [00:13:05] and she’s 16. And I’m saying by the time she becomes a dentist eight [00:13:10] years time, surely a robot’s going to be doing it, you know?

Ashley King: I think so, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Man, what does [00:13:15] it take? It takes it takes a brain. The brain’s already better than ours. Yeah. It takes AIS. [00:13:20] It gets X-ray vision thing going on. And then. Are you telling me they can’t make hands better than these? [00:13:25] They’ll make hands that can rotate. 360 hands come out of their hands. You know what I mean?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, but you still got, you [00:13:30] know, where you look at that in surgery, where you’ve got people doing remote surgery, even from different [00:13:35] countries. Yeah. Yeah. You know, those robot arms are so much better than the, you know, the human shaking [00:13:40] hand. But again, I just see our relationship with [00:13:45] AI, with technology improving at the moment. We’re just we’re in the dating [00:13:50] zone with, with this sort of tech. And we don’t know whether they want to go steady with [00:13:55] us or whether they just want to carry on. You know, it is we’re all a bit unsure, but I [00:14:00] think that as we progress, we’ll find our relationship sweet spot with AI. If we don’t, that’s [00:14:05] a human problem. But do you know what’s making AI humans?

Ashley King: So I think the pendulum [00:14:10] is actually going to swing in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’re right.

Ashley King: People are going.

Payman Langroudi: To be in person. [00:14:15] Stuff will be, this is it. So we’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound, whatever. Yeah. But in [00:14:20] the same way as now, the pendulum swung like people want vinyl records.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s a niche thing. Yeah. So as a niche thing, yeah, I hear you.

Ashley King: I [00:14:30] don’t think that I don’t think it’s niche to want real human interaction. I think that’s just [00:14:35] how we biologically are. So I even think about going to a restaurant, right? [00:14:40] Uh, if there were robots serving versus, you know, [00:14:45] and sorry, you know, serving is once again another UK term, as we say in the US, robot waitresses [00:14:50] versus, you know, real waitresses. I’m going to choose the one with the real, even [00:14:55] if the robot ones are more efficient because I want to be around people. [00:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: People buy from people. People buy from.

Payman Langroudi: People. I wouldn’t be surprised if my kids [00:15:05] married a robot.

Sophie Lovett: Well, that’s probably, well.

Ashley King: Not parenting male loneliness [00:15:10] epidemic. So maybe if you have any.

Payman Langroudi: Because like you look at you look at your discovery.

Sophie Lovett: I hope [00:15:15] you’re very proud.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, you look at your discover page. You look at your discover page. That goddamn thing knows you [00:15:20] better than you know yourself. Yeah, but so, so.

Ashley King: Scary thought if.

Payman Langroudi: The robot, if the robot [00:15:25] knows you better than you know yourself, like knows exactly what you want, and then you put some pair of glasses on and it looks like [00:15:30] whatever you want it to look like.

Sophie Lovett: And would you marry yourself.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] the programming is perfect? Yeah. Then then why wouldn’t you? You [00:15:40] know, in a way, it’s a bit sad to say.

Sophie Lovett: But I just think it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: As my children. My grandchildren. [00:15:45]

Sophie Lovett: Maybe your grandchildren will be. And we’re all very proud of them. And what [00:15:50] a great ceremony. And I hope it’s not too expensive for you. But, I mean, you could say, [00:15:55] you know, why didn’t the people who invented the wheel fall in love with the wheel? You know, we all fall in love with [00:16:00] some people do. But, you know, it’s just people are intrinsically [00:16:05] linked to people when we all saw each other.

Payman Langroudi: Have you enabled voice on ChatGPT [00:16:10] or Gemini? You can have a two hour conversation with.

Ashley King: Oh yeah, I mean, I do sometimes. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Ashley King: Absolutely. I did before this podcast.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve never done that.

Sophie Lovett: So I, [00:16:20] I always talk to it. Yeah. But I listened to an AI podcast [00:16:25] to see if I could listen to it. And it sounds so real, but it’s [00:16:30] so not. There’s just something about human.

Payman Langroudi: I know it’s very early days.

Ashley King: I [00:16:35] think there’s something like esoteric spiritual that you.

Sophie Lovett: Can’t.

Ashley King: Explain [00:16:40] when it comes to human connection. I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: Are we going to get to God, though? It’s [00:16:45] a bit early in the podcast.

Sophie Lovett: Payman always finds [00:16:50] God.

Ashley King: I mean, you know, there’s something bigger than us. We don’t know everything. [00:16:55] We don’t know why we’re here. So I think there may be unexplainable neurobiological. [00:17:00] They might be explainable as well. But you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right. We don’t know everything. That’s for sure. That’s for sure. [00:17:05]

Sophie Lovett: Can I just touch on that? Payman. Do you think there’s something bigger, bigger than us? Do you think there’s a [00:17:10] sort of higher.

Payman Langroudi: Higher energy? Whatever.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. We had this conversation in a cab in. [00:17:15]

Sophie Lovett: This.

Ashley King: Conversation after the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Show me. Every time we meet, we talk, [00:17:20] we talk about. We talk about God. Um, yeah. Listen.

Sophie Lovett: We [00:17:25] love.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, listen, listen. There is. There’s definitely something else other than this. This. Yeah, there’s [00:17:30] something else. But I think it’s more like, you know, doors of perception kind of thing. Yeah. That, you know, we [00:17:35] can right now perceive some stuff. We can’t see all the radio waves [00:17:40] and UV rays going on. So those things are here, but we can’t see them.

Ashley King: So the [00:17:45] 3D reality.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Ashley King: So what we see.

Payman Langroudi: But but the question of is there good and bad. [00:17:50] That’s where I sort of fall over. Yeah. Is there good and evil?

Sophie Lovett: I think we got really existential. [00:17:55] And I think this is probably you know, it takes us back to why do clinicians want [00:18:00] to use Perl? And I think you can use AI, or you can use Perl, or you can use whatever [00:18:05] for good or evil. You know, you can totally sit back and do nothing and [00:18:10] you can, you know, have something that’s a support. But actually everything works better when you have a good [00:18:15] relationship with it. Um, if I look at the best clinicians, I [00:18:20] know they are using every thing to give everything they possibly can for the patients [00:18:25] to give them the best consent journey, the best treatment planning. And if something [00:18:30] goes wrong, then they’ve done all that they possibly can. Things go wrong. Things go wrong all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting [00:18:35] listening to you. You’re talking and you’re using sort of Dental vocab. Like it’s like [00:18:40] second nature to you. But you’ve only been in dentistry for how long?

Sophie Lovett: Nearly three [00:18:45] years, isn’t it? I mean, I went to my first dental event when I was 18, so.

Payman Langroudi: It feels like you’ve [00:18:50] been in dentistry much longer than that, which is like, I guess a, you know, testament, right. But I [00:18:55] want to ask you, how long have you been in dentistry?

Ashley King: I started in dental [00:19:00] in 2018, so about eight years.

Payman Langroudi: But 2018.

Ashley King: I’ve, I’ve had a few pivots [00:19:05] along the way. I will say Sophie, clinically, she has far more [00:19:10] knowledge than me, but I think I think it’s because she’s just been extremely curious.

Payman Langroudi: But you went with Pearl [00:19:15] 2018. There was no Pearl.

Ashley King: No, I wasn’t I was with my now boss, Erica, [00:19:20] and we were at Voco, which is. I’m sure you’re familiar. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:19:25] so I want to ask. I mean, dentists think we’re so different, you know, to [00:19:30] everyone else. We think it’s a very like nishi. Interesting. It’s different to everything else. What [00:19:35] is it about dentistry that surprised you the most?

Sophie Lovett: I think [00:19:40] especially when we look at the comparison between the US and the UK, the UK [00:19:45] dental market is so small. Everybody knows everybody. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a cottage industry, right?

Sophie Lovett: It is. But it’s it’s tiny. And I think [00:19:55] that’s really exciting because you can work with people you actually really enjoy working with. And [00:20:00] I mean, when I’m at dinner and the dental chat gets [00:20:05] going, I honestly, my dad is just bored to tears with it when I’m with my father, my [00:20:10] poor father.

Payman Langroudi: But because both your brothers.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I have four brothers. [00:20:15]

Ashley King: And now I come to the family dinner sometimes.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s family.

Ashley King: And he’s like, please [00:20:20] don’t invite her. Don’t talk about dentistry.

Sophie Lovett: I was like, oh my goodness me, [00:20:25] what a boring conversation. It’s so exciting. And but it’s because [00:20:30] I think if you look at, um medical and GP [00:20:35] practices and hospital and stuff, I don’t think they’ve got so much choice about what they can do on a day to [00:20:40] day basis. Whereas I think principal dentists and groups, etc. [00:20:45] have a lot more access to technologies, to changes [00:20:50] in a way that’s almost unprecedented. You know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why he targeted dentistry, [00:20:55] really, because hospitals are, you know, the decision making process is so difficult. Yeah. And [00:21:00] you’re right, GPS are very slow to adopt stuff.

Ashley King: There’s so much more bureaucracy in healthcare and monopolies [00:21:05] and.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists like toys.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of there’s a lot of dentists [00:21:10] who are early adopters on toys. Yeah. But but you know, what are the reflections about dentists? [00:21:15] What you know, what, what is it about dentists that you sort of didn’t expect.

Ashley King: I [00:21:20] mean, I have a really interesting lens, I think, because I came from the US [00:21:25] and then to here, it’s it’s night and.

Payman Langroudi: Day difference between American and UK. So American is [00:21:30] much more commercial.

Ashley King: It is. And I mean, they go through more schooling. They spend a [00:21:35] lot more money on schooling coming out of, you know, with 250 [00:21:40] K in debt. And then but they’re guaranteed to make a lot more money. Right. [00:21:45] Um, some pulling the standard is 500. Probably, I don’t know. I would have to [00:21:50] look, but you know, millionaires essentially. And I think the reason people go [00:21:55] into dentistry is maybe a little bit different because it is more of [00:22:00] a lucrative career. I know that it’s lucrative here as well. But [00:22:05] in terms of your upside financially, um, it’s [00:22:10] more money focussed. Yeah. So if I’m being honest.

Payman Langroudi: Versus let me tell you an example, we do a composite [00:22:15] course here.

Ashley King: Right?

Payman Langroudi: We do the exact same composite course in Chicago with same teacher, [00:22:20] same content. Yeah. In Chicago we charge twice as much as we charge here. [00:22:25] Um, the every single dentist who comes to the class ends up [00:22:30] buying product. Every single one. Here we’d have to charge half as much. [00:22:35] And, you know, you get you sell a better stuff here and there, but it’s not like there’s not that [00:22:40] that sort of go getter ness from the dentist. Yeah. Um, so I’d [00:22:45] expect like selling Perl much easier in America than here. Is that correct or. No.

Speaker 5: I would say. [00:22:50]

Sophie Lovett: I think people are pretty open to it in the UK.

Ashley King: I think the [00:22:55] value translates in both.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Because it’s not solely about just [00:23:00] direct ROI. While that’s a big piece of it. It [00:23:05] also is about building patient trust and your day to day right. And offloading your workload. [00:23:10] This is a problem that exists in both territories. You know, dentists are running a [00:23:15] business. They didn’t go to dental school to run a business. They went to dental school [00:23:20] to learn how to provide great patient care. And that’s a problem that exists across every [00:23:25] single global market.

Sophie Lovett: You know what? I think you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Have you sold to American dentists? [00:23:30]

Sophie Lovett: Yes. It’s the easiest thing in the world. Yeah. I just put up the price. No. [00:23:35] Yeah. It’s I don’t know, it’s more.

Ashley King: Expensive in the US.

Sophie Lovett: I think. I think it’s just [00:23:40] because of the British accent. Hello. Would you like to buy something? You know, it could be. Yeah. It’s, [00:23:45] you know, so I, I don’t actually know how easy or hard it is to sell that, but [00:23:50] my experience is it’s fairly easy. But what was.

Ashley King: It Jackie like? Went to a show in [00:23:55] the US and.

Sophie Lovett: He made.

Ashley King: The most sales.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Americans love, you know, an English [00:24:00] accent, which.

Sophie Lovett: Is novelty factor. But I think in the UK where we do really well is you’ve [00:24:05] got people who purchase from us exactly as Ashley said, for the the return, [00:24:10] because it’s a product that very easily brings a return, but actually on the other side, [00:24:15] you have the clinicians who use it because they’re super moral, because [00:24:20] they want to give their patients all of the communication. They don’t ask [00:24:25] about any return on investment. They just want everything that is available for them.

Payman Langroudi: The latest thing.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:24:30] want the latest thing, but they want something that is, yeah, it’s all about the patients for some of them. So that’s [00:24:35] why we have we don’t really have an issue at all with when we speak with UK clinicians.

Ashley King: I would say what [00:24:40] this has happened to me a few times here in the UK when I’ve spoken to clinicians [00:24:45] is they’re doing a lot of NHS dentistry and this is [00:24:50] bad, but there have been a few dentists that have said to me, oh, I don’t want your tool [00:24:55] because, you know, we surface up to 30% more detections. And that means I’m going [00:25:00] to have to provide more treatment to my NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Patients supervised neglect kind of idea. [00:25:05]

Ashley King: Because if I see it on the now, I actually have to address it. So that’s [00:25:10] bad. But there are some dentists that think that way. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But the [00:25:15] thing is, though, again, there’s that moral thing of, okay, you may not be able to treat as much, but you’re [00:25:20] seeing far more. So you just have to be a bit more discerning about who you are treating. So it’s not a case of, [00:25:25] you know, I’m blindly not looking. It’s just they just have to treat the most important things. But [00:25:30] that’s, you know, that’s the problem that I see personally, um, [00:25:35] when I’m looking at England, Scotland and Wales as well, the devolved governments and how [00:25:40] different dentistry is and how it’s run in terms of the NHS. And I just don’t see how [00:25:45] it’s sustainable, particularly within England and Wales. And that’s one of the most eye opening things [00:25:50] about working in dental is the difference between private and NHS. I like [00:25:55] the Scottish system as a comparison to the.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a cheaper [00:26:00] item.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a fee per item, you know, it’s not perfect, but if you look at the comparison, if you look at the kind [00:26:05] of general happiness of Scottish clinicians, it seems on par Paul [00:26:10] more elevated. But the crazy thing is, is you’ve got people who know very little [00:26:15] about dentistry, puppeteering, things in the NHS. There was a [00:26:20] talk at the Parliament the other day, and they were talking about giving a few million more pounds to [00:26:25] NHS dentistry, and there was a nice little clap in the room. But a few million pounds is absolutely [00:26:30] nothing in the grand scheme of the NHS. So the biggest eye opening [00:26:35] factor for me is how can we get these people who have done really well at school, [00:26:40] who’ve gone to university for seven years, who are putting their heart and soul into something? How can [00:26:45] we pay them? How can we pay them better? How can we level the playing field between private and NHS? That [00:26:50] for me is the the craziest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Look, I think it’s problematic, right? Because [00:26:55] if we compare to the US for instance, the healthcare. Yeah. [00:27:00] If if your grandma had an issue a medical issue. Yeah. [00:27:05] I’d be very happy to tell my grandma. Go to your local GP. Yeah. For free. [00:27:10] Yeah. And I’d be very happy for her to be referred to a local hospital for free [00:27:15] and be seen. And I think that’s a that’s a good level of care. Yeah. In the US they’ve got this thing about listen, [00:27:20] go find the best doctor in the country. And you know, the best doctor in the country isn’t going to be free. And you know, there’s that [00:27:25] level of agency people want with their healthcare. They want to pick the best guy. Yeah. [00:27:30] So there’s that. But if my grandma had toothache, yeah. I wouldn’t [00:27:35] hand on heart say go find an NHS dentist. I wouldn’t.

Sophie Lovett: You know, wouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, because the NHS [00:27:40] hasn’t got time or money to fix that tooth.

Ashley King: It’s the time piece. Absolutely. I’ve [00:27:45] had a discussion with an NHS dentist at the show, and she was telling me how [00:27:50] just she has to move through patients so quickly, and even how second opinion would be great for her, [00:27:55] because then she would have to spend less time looking at X-rays. But I mean, it’s insane how what is expected [00:28:00] of NHS given.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite advice to friends and family. I definitely don’t find an NHS [00:28:05] dentist for this problem, but.

Ashley King: It’s not their fault, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s his fault, but the system’s fault, [00:28:10] right?

Ashley King: Exactly. And like Sophie, you said, they’re saying, you know, we’ll throw a few million at it. It’s like, well, it’s a fundamentally [00:28:15] broken system, which, by the way, I have many thoughts about our system in the US, insurance wise. Insurance [00:28:20] companies in general are just problematic in creating a lot of issues for us. But here it’s also [00:28:25] fundamentally broken. Don’t don’t throw money at it. Like look at the I.

Sophie Lovett: Mean, if you’re going to throw money [00:28:30] at it, throw more than a tenner as well, right?

Payman Langroudi: But there’s health care inflation as well. I mean, it’s the [00:28:35] crazy thing is here that we’re spending more on health per capita now than ever before. [00:28:40] And yet the NHS is more on its knees than ever before because stuff’s [00:28:45] getting more expensive. Health care is getting more expensive.

Sophie Lovett: Life is just expensive. And you have these specialist dentists [00:28:50] as well, who could be earning 300 plus thousand pounds a year, and they’re having to save. Now [00:28:55] people are having. Yes, it’s a we there’s a lot of issues that need sorting [00:29:00] out. Um, but, you know, essentially Pearl is there to make clinicians [00:29:05] lives easier. And there’s we love it, don’t we, doctor Amanda Bassey [00:29:10] Duke in in Scotland. So she just decided to take it upon herself [00:29:15] to time how much she was saving per visit.

Payman Langroudi: Because of per.

Sophie Lovett: Because of per. Yeah. [00:29:20] And we were saying this to dentists weren’t we. Up and down the country. She’s saving I think it was nine minutes, 33 [00:29:25] seconds or something. And an NHS dentist stopped me and said, you know, I’d [00:29:30] have less than six minutes left of my appointment. You can’t be saying that. You know, that’s the difference between Scotland [00:29:35] and England and saving of nine minutes in some Dental [00:29:40] per what? Per per appointment, per appointment.

Ashley King: In terms of diagnosing [00:29:45] herself and then speaking to.

Sophie Lovett: The nation, isn’t that incredible? So she actually took it upon [00:29:50] herself to time every single visit. She makes me laugh. She she, [00:29:55] if you ask her, why wouldn’t you have Pearl? She is [00:30:00] so fervent about it, you know, why wouldn’t you have it? It’s absolutely fantastic system. She just doesn’t [00:30:05] understand why everybody doesn’t have it. It has been completely transformative for [00:30:10] her. Um, and, but I just thought that was incredible case study. And we have some people who’ve [00:30:15] done case studies for us where it really surfaces things that we wouldn’t even thought about.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go [00:30:20] through the process. Let’s say I’m a dentist, I decide I want Pearl, I call you Sophie. What happens next? [00:30:25]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we look at what imaging system that you’re using and then we go [00:30:30] based on that. So if you’re I mean, we work with pretty much every single imaging system. So [00:30:35] we would then set you up with it. So it all happens remotely. You don’t need to do anything.

Payman Langroudi: No one visits. [00:30:40]

Sophie Lovett: No no, no, it’s all everything’s remote, you know, it’s a. And then what we would [00:30:45] do is you would just take your radiographs as you normally would, and then we can give you a system. So [00:30:50] it’s a separate web browser. And then you’d be able to access all the AI. So you can [00:30:55] access everything from there. But what we’re trying to do and this is where Ashley has been working, [00:31:00] is we’re trying to improve that workflow. So [00:31:05] we now work with the likes of Dental Vision. So the AI that you have in there, dental vision, AI, [00:31:10] DB, AI that’s pearls technology. So you’re not even having to move the you’re not even [00:31:15] having to change browser clinicians do not like clicking, do they? Actually, yeah, we work with we [00:31:20] work natively. So natively means when we are embedded within an existing system with [00:31:25] the likes of Care Stream and Rumex, I mean, you can talk much more about this actually, because you’ve been working on [00:31:30] those partnerships and getting them up and running.

Ashley King: Yeah. Your point about [00:31:35] clinicians not wanting to change their workflow has been a focus for us. [00:31:40] We want to make lives easier, not harder, obviously. Um, so yeah, I would say most of [00:31:45] the main imaging systems people are using in the UK and globally, like [00:31:50] the top 3 to 5 were integrated and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, what happens now? [00:31:55] You she’s got, she’s, she downloaded something and she’s got, she’s got the. Is [00:32:00] there training.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, we’ll pull from the server again. So it’s all just streamlined [00:32:05] there for you. So what I would say is so we’ll send out video training. Um, [00:32:10] you can train yourself on the things that you need to know in five [00:32:15] minutes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really.

Sophie Lovett: And everything that is nice to know in [00:32:20] less than a day. And that is feedback that I’ve had from clinicians who’ve told me that it’s [00:32:25] scary again, actually, I think you mentioned earlier your friends saying about, oh, AI, and [00:32:30] we kind of just assume that people know exactly what we’re talking about. And I do not want to assume [00:32:35] that people will be able to learn in the same way or anything like that, but you [00:32:40] cannot break it. So what it will do is it will just overlay with the AI, you’ll have a list of pathologies, [00:32:45] they will automatically be selected for you. And then we have just this patient presentation [00:32:50] button which is called tooth parts, which is the colour overlay. Um, that is [00:32:55] the one button that I would want to just train on everything else. You can learn yourself edits, printouts, [00:33:00] enhancing the image, um, flipping it, changing it, inverting colour, etc.. [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say I’m not on Dental. How do I get that that extra into the notes, the pearl [00:33:10] into the notes.

Sophie Lovett: Um, so in terms of your note system, what you can do is you can [00:33:15] just select to save it. So you can just pull it down as a PDF into your notes, so straight [00:33:20] into your notes. But what happens is because it’s a separate web browser, if you’re not in Dental, [00:33:25] for example, um, you can access it all the time. So I know when I first start [00:33:30] showing people it, they think, how do I get into my notes? How do I get back to it? It will all [00:33:35] stay there. One of the nice things about that is that that then makes it fully remote for [00:33:40] you as well. So where clinicians were, you know, using wet film or using, um, server [00:33:45] based products really kind of tied them to the [00:33:50] practice. Now you can access your radiographs from home or in your case, your, your yacht [00:33:55] in the Riviera, and you could do your notes from there, for example.

Payman Langroudi: Then. [00:34:00] Okay. How much does it cost?

Sophie Lovett: It’s £249 [00:34:05] per month plus VAT currently.

Payman Langroudi: Per dentist.

Ashley King: Per.

Sophie Lovett: Clinic, per clinic. [00:34:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or per clinic.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So we, you know, what is it works out around pound per [00:34:15] patient in some practices.

Payman Langroudi: However many chairs I’ve got.

Ashley King: Up to.

Sophie Lovett: About ten [00:34:20] chairs 10 to.

Ashley King: 15. We’re pretty flexible on it. We have a.

Payman Langroudi: One chair and ten chairs. Same cost.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [00:34:25] So around 250 to £300 per month is what you’re going to your pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Your [00:34:30] pitch is you’re going to make that up in the in the treatment uptake because patients [00:34:35] will trust you more because is that what you’re saying?

Sophie Lovett: So as Ashley mentioned earlier, we are surfacing about [00:34:40] 3,033% more diseases being detected. So one [00:34:45] you’ve got that. So, you know, sometimes our eyes can be focussed on a specific area. We may have missed something. [00:34:50] Secondly that acceptance of treatment because of the. Aha! I understand [00:34:55] what I’m looking at. It’s far quicker. That’s where Doctor Amanda’s nine [00:35:00] minute, 33 seconds time saving came in. So yeah, quicker treatment acceptance. [00:35:05] If for example the patient isn’t the bill payer as well, we’ll give them something to take home [00:35:10] so that they can show somebody else. Seeing is believing. If I go to the mechanic, don’t [00:35:15] want to fix my car, but I really want to know what I am paying for. Um, [00:35:20] so when we’ve got patients who don’t know what it is because [00:35:25] they can’t feel it, you know, they don’t know what’s going on, you know, the second that you’ve got something that is, is [00:35:30] non-sentient, it doesn’t feel there’s no reason for the AI to be detecting [00:35:35] any more or less. It’s just that it’s a shame, but it’s that, okay, I trust you now. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, dentistry is a game of trust. 1,000%. Right? Because [00:35:45] most of the time you can’t tell as a patient anything that’s happened. Yeah. In your mouth, which [00:35:50] is hence, you know, people get lovely waiting rooms and stuff like that to try and say, hey, you know, [00:35:55] the other signs that I’m good other than the teeth don’t hurt. Um, [00:36:00] and then just get this wrong sometimes, you know, like the trust point is the [00:36:05] key point. Um, if you know, we have people asking us, oh, if I [00:36:10] drop the price, will I do more whitening? And it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: All [00:36:15] the time.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not a commodity, you know, like commodities work that way. Yeah, yeah. But it’s not a commodity. [00:36:20] It’s the exact opposite of a commodity. It’s like, you know, very personalised care. Yeah. And [00:36:25] the question of, you know, if I’m selling, we’ve got, you know, some guys got cheap whitening for £300 [00:36:30] and now we’ve got expensive whitening for £600, let’s say. Does it mean if I, [00:36:35] if I’m selling 600 will I sell half as much. They really people really believe that. Whereas [00:36:40] actually, if the patient trusts you to 300 they’ll trust you to 3000. [00:36:45] It’s the trust point. That’s the key. And I guess, you know, if I can increase trust with [00:36:50] Pearl. It’s huge. It’s huge. I wouldn’t for you guys. I wouldn’t even go in selling [00:36:55] pounds per second or nine minutes. I know these are things that you’re going to add on. Yeah. [00:37:00] But it’s trust. If I can increase trust from my patients, it’s gigantic.

Ashley King: I think we [00:37:05] forget as well how it does improve trust, because AI in [00:37:10] some instances has become a bit of a dirty word, probably because of fear. Yeah. [00:37:15] But we ran a survey and what was the percentage? 70% of 70 plus percent of patients [00:37:20] said that they trusted their dentists more because they were using AI. Yeah. [00:37:25] And it goes back even to the conversation we were having before about, you know, it’s about person [00:37:30] to person, interpersonal communication, all of these things, relationships. [00:37:35] You can’t replace that. And you have to build it in order to be [00:37:40] truly successful. There’s no AI will never actually replace that, but it can enhance it. [00:37:45]

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I talk to students a lot of the time and they [00:37:50] I when they’re still at university and when they finish university. [00:37:55] And something I hear so much is my patients aren’t [00:38:00] accepting, I’m not able to sell it. The word sell in dentistry is a real surprising [00:38:05] word that I never expected.

Ashley King: It feels very American.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a real. It’s a. I think it’s a real shame. [00:38:10] Why is it that we’re having to. Or clinicians are having to sell what they know that they’re doing. So [00:38:15] if I walked into the hospital.

Payman Langroudi: You can you can stick another word in it, but it’s selling.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:38:20] you are like, because why are we convincing this patient that they need a root [00:38:25] canal? It shouldn’t be that we’re looking.

Ashley King: You know what, I imagine it feels like I’m not a clinician, but as a [00:38:30] when you go into the supermarket and you don’t buy anything and then you leave and you [00:38:35] are like, I didn’t do anything wrong. But I’m wondering if someone’s assuming that I’m like doing [00:38:40] something wrong. You feel kind of guilty and weird. That’s probably what it feels like when you have a patient walk in. [00:38:45] Maybe that doesn’t have pain and maybe you find, you know, three carries, you’re asking them to [00:38:50] get treatment and you’re like, oh, like you feel this weird feeling. [00:38:55] I imagine that’s what it’d feel like.

Payman Langroudi: As a dentist.

Ashley King: Will you.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me? You’re right, you’re right. And then often [00:39:00] you don’t know when was the last time this person saw a dentist? Yeah. And plus, get three dentists, [00:39:05] get four treatment plans, you know, like that’s it.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: People disagree with each other. Um, [00:39:10] you’ve met my wife? Yeah. She’s a total let’s wait and see type [00:39:15] of dentist. She is excellent. And then you get the other type who’s like early intervention, like get in as quick [00:39:20] as you can before it gets any worse. Yeah. Like, you know, like, let’s crown it while we still [00:39:25] can kind of approach and very the US approach actually.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: They [00:39:30] might not be wrong. You know, those 3 or 4 different people who have got different decisions [00:39:35] on something, they might all be right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That too. That too.

Sophie Lovett: And then I think that [00:39:40] just wherever we have a vacuum and this happens so much in Covid, we fill that [00:39:45] vacuum with information when we don’t know, and that’s what patients are doing. And I think it’s so important that we [00:39:50] try to remember what it’s like when we knew nothing about dentistry, even [00:39:55] the language, you know, when the language was completely changed since I came into dental, that’s why I’ve got [00:40:00] my little Oxford Book of Clinical Dentistry, because the language I had to learn how to understand it. I’m [00:40:05] going to be completely honest. I didn’t know what a Carie was. I didn’t know what caries were trying [00:40:10] to.

Payman Langroudi: But now it’s so native to you. Like you trot it off. It’s nice.

Sophie Lovett: But then I feel like when I when I’m [00:40:15] speaking with people who are outside of dentistry, I would say decay. So again, I think it’s [00:40:20] with everybody kind of has to remember or we find [00:40:25] ourselves kind of just mixing within Dental. I think when you’re in it a certain amount of time. So then we just forget [00:40:30] the language of bubble. It’s a bubble. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about you live you live here now? [00:40:35]

Ashley King: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of kind of. Tell me about your reflections on like, London, [00:40:40] living in London. What’s what’s the best and worst thing compared to the US?

Ashley King: Oh man. [00:40:45]

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I like that.

Ashley King: I think London is the best city in the world, which is, [00:40:50] I know, a hot take.

Payman Langroudi: Even all the places you’ve been.

Ashley King: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ashley King: And [00:40:55] maybe I’m just gaslighting myself because I’m here.

Sophie Lovett: But it is a sunny day today.

Ashley King: It [00:41:00] is also a beautiful day outside. Ask me next January. I’ll tell you how I really feel. But no. Um, [00:41:05] I think, Sophie, I think you said this to me. It’s a hard city to be [00:41:10] truly successful in. It’s almost like New York in the US where, you know, if you’re living [00:41:15] in London, it’s expensive. You have to be a grafter. And I think [00:41:20] there are some very hard working, intelligent people in this city. It’s not hard [00:41:25] to find them and people from all over the world. So I really like that. What [00:41:30] I don’t like about it, I mean, being away from my family, of course.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:41:35] outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Come on, give us the scoop. Give us the tea.

Ashley King: There is some.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:41:40] surely service here can’t be as good as it is in the US.

Ashley King: Oh yeah. I mean, that’s true.

Sophie Lovett: I feel [00:41:45] like you quite like that though.

Ashley King: I like it when people.

Sophie Lovett: Are like to.

Ashley King: Me. I’m like yeah. Oh I [00:41:50] have to earn your love. Like bring it on. It’s probably some childhood trauma thing. Yeah, [00:41:55] exactly. Um, it can be a bit much when you go back to the US, but [00:42:00] like you walk in the elevator in five different people walk in and they all say hello to you. You know, especially [00:42:05] where I’m from, North Carolina, everyone’s very friendly, so it’s good in different good and bad in different ways.

Sophie Lovett: No. [00:42:10] Come on, tell us what’s the worst thing?

Ashley King: Uh, okay. You know that I’m, like, hyper critical of the US, [00:42:15] so I hope that anyone listening to this doesn’t think that I’m like, America is so much [00:42:20] better. We’re the best country in the world. Freedom. We’ll talk.

Payman Langroudi: About the worst things about America as.

Ashley King: Well.

Sophie Lovett: For [00:42:25] anyone listening. Ashley’s wearing a t shirt that says back to back World War Champs. Yeah. [00:42:30]

Ashley King: Um, I would say [00:42:35] there’s something so beautiful about the American dream [00:42:40] and the American spirit. Um, which is actually sort of dying in the US at this [00:42:45] moment with the younger generation. But this idea that you can become [00:42:50] whoever you want to.

Payman Langroudi: Be and do. Kind of.

Ashley King: Yeah. And be proud of what you’ve accomplished. [00:42:55] I think it’s a little more toned back here. Like people [00:43:00] are afraid to talk about their successes or even [00:43:05] dream really big and do that out loud. You’ll be judged.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:43:10] think you’re right. If you if in the UK, if you say, I’ve got an idea, loads of people will tell you why [00:43:15] it’s not possible. Right. And I’ve noticed in America it’s the opposite. I mean, people were [00:43:20] saying why not.

Ashley King: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s for real.

Sophie Lovett: It’s the complementing as well, like [00:43:25] self complementing. If somebody said that they were the best at something, I’d say actually this person [00:43:30] said that they were the best at something the other day. Whereas I actually think it’s really good to celebrate your [00:43:35] successes. Um, but I think we’re trying to learn that as Brits. [00:43:40] But it’s slow, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my, my business partner moved to Dubai, so [00:43:45] it’s just so.

Sophie Lovett: They could complement themselves.

Payman Langroudi: Within, within three months of being there. [00:43:50] He’s got people helping him in ways he’s never had here.

Sophie Lovett: Wow.

Ashley King: That’s that’s another really great point. [00:43:55] Every all of my early success in my career, which has brought me here, has been because [00:44:00] people I met, people that wanted to help me. Yeah, yeah. And so, for example, when I started at [00:44:05] Voco, the reason I got that job is because I was in Houston for on [00:44:10] a work trip. I went to a gym that I booked on ClassPass, and this girl in the class started [00:44:15] talking to me who worked at Voco. She ended up getting me hired there. Wow. And it, it [00:44:20] was just because we had a conversation and then we became friends. And I don’t think [00:44:25] we do that as much here. People don’t talk to each other and they’re not looking for friends. Like, we have [00:44:30] golden retriever energy in the US where it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a question on that sometimes in America, I’ve sat [00:44:35] on a plane and the guy sitting next to me straight away. How are you doing? Yeah. And sometimes we have [00:44:40] a nine hour flight and we talk for the whole nine hour flight.

Ashley King: This happened to me the other day, but it can be annoying. [00:44:45]

Payman Langroudi: At the end of that nine hour.

Ashley King: Flight.

Payman Langroudi: I thought, I thought I’ve really connected to someone. You know, like [00:44:50] this is going to be a friend for life or something. Because we spoke for all that time. We got we got to where [00:44:55] we were getting to and he was like, okay, see you later. Bye. Yeah. And if.

Sophie Lovett: I transient.

Payman Langroudi: If I, yeah, [00:45:00] if I’d had a conversation like that in the UK that I’d be like in touch with that person. [00:45:05] Yeah. And it made me realise, yeah, that you guys get into things much more quickly, [00:45:10] but maybe like getting very close takes a long time. Whereas [00:45:15] here you can sometimes sometimes you meet someone and you just straight away, straight away, you know, like that person’s [00:45:20] like someone you’re going to, you’re going to be knowing for a long time and you can get very close quicker, [00:45:25] very close quicker. But you’re right, people don’t talk. People don’t [00:45:30] talk.

Sophie Lovett: Say Ashley’s really quite European in that sense. Ashley herself. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:35] I would hope so. As in you, you. And it’s, um, um, [00:45:40] it’s like your love and respect is earned over [00:45:45] time, and I find that much more valuable in terms of you’re always super polite and warm and everything, but [00:45:50] you’re not, you’re not that kind of golden retriever, which is, uh, hey, hey, hey hey hey. And [00:45:55] then leave it, you know, it’s you really do build those relationships. And, um, [00:46:00] I’m an introvert. I’ll see you was asking me about it. He’s he’s from France, but he lives in LA, [00:46:05] so I’m not going to do the accent because, you know, sort of thinks [00:46:10] a Parisian surfer. Um, but he was saying, you know, how do Ashley and [00:46:15] Sarah create these relationships in Europe? Europeans don’t love Americans [00:46:20] and said, it’s not about loving Americans. It’s about the individual. And actually, [00:46:25] you know, Ashley can speak to anybody.

Payman Langroudi: I think British people do love Americans, though, over here.

Ashley King: More than I [00:46:30] thought.

Payman Langroudi: I was here.

Ashley King: I thought I was going to be a cringe, you know, a person. But it [00:46:35] turns out it’s not too bad.

Sophie Lovett: It’s all these airport. That’s an airport accent that you’ve cultivated. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I mean London, everyone’s a foreigner, right? It’s hard to find a Brit in [00:46:45] London. Honestly, what’s the worst thing about being in Benidorm? [00:46:50]

Ashley King: The worst thing.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the worst? What would you say, Sophie.

Sophie Lovett: About living in the UK?

Payman Langroudi: No, us. [00:46:55]

Sophie Lovett: What’s the worst thing about the US? Yeah.

Ashley King: I have an [00:47:00] answer. Go on. Um, like we are all. John [00:47:05] said this to me. John Schwarz, who was 13 for a bit and is a close friend, and he said, [00:47:10] um, Americans are on a lifeboat. That’s how they live their [00:47:15] lives. Like they’re on a lifeboat. So everyone, because think about it, our our [00:47:20] health care is tied to our job.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ashley King: We’re trying to survive. And [00:47:25] even like, you can’t just walk to the store in the US. You have to get in your car. That car is [00:47:30] costing you $400 a month, and then you have car insurance. It’s just all these extra costs. [00:47:35] And being so capitalism focussed. Yeah, I think people [00:47:40] have lost, I guess, just a little bit of authenticity [00:47:45] and like, it’s almost like touch grass a little, you know, like, but people are trying to survive so they can’t [00:47:50] touch grass. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but wouldn’t you say financially in America, people are slightly better off than here? [00:47:55] No, I don’t think here the system takes more money from them.

Ashley King: Statistically, salary wise, yes. [00:48:00] But when you add up all those extra fees and then just not even being able to walk to the [00:48:05] supermarket, you know, it’s we don’t have and we don’t prioritise relationships. [00:48:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think what annoys me about America. Yeah. That it’s only about [00:48:15] the money.

Ashley King: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a good thing in a way. Right. Because here there are places it doesn’t matter how much money [00:48:20] you’ve got, you’re not getting in.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. We’re about snob long term snobbery. And there’s.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:48:25] jobs. Yeah. There’s jobs. Yeah. It’s not about like the money. It’s about who [00:48:30] you are, who, you know, like, whereas in the US at least, you know what it’s about. It’s about money. Yeah. So that’s, [00:48:35] that’s a good thing. You can, you can put it down.

Ashley King: More surface level, like easy to expose.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, [00:48:40] but once I was, I was skiing in America and I lost my goggles or something. So [00:48:45] I went to look for some more and I tried a few on. And the service is great isn’t it? They get, [00:48:50] they get giving me them and taking them out. Try them on. And then I came to pay for it and I looked, I couldn’t find [00:48:55] my wallet. Yeah. I said, oh, I’m so sorry. I left my wallet. And the way she turned on me, man, [00:49:00] she turned on me, man. And you know, then you realise it’s only about [00:49:05] the money. Like the bartenders, this amazing guy. As long as you’re ordering more drinks and and giving him tips. Yeah, [00:49:10] the moment you’re not that guy, who’s the other guy?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Then you get.

Ashley King: Good.

Speaker 6: Service too. [00:49:15] So it’s like, it’s good.

Sophie Lovett: You know, and this is exactly it’s all about this balance. But I [00:49:20] think you were asking what I personally think is the worst thing about the US. And [00:49:25] I, I mean, I go to the US most years. I love the place, the geography, the people. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: Where’s your favourite.

Sophie Lovett: Place? Charleston in South Carolina. Absolutely love.

Payman Langroudi: It. Her [00:49:35] hometown.

Sophie Lovett: Uh, you’re from North Carolina. Charlotte, right.

Ashley King: But very close to. I grew up going there. [00:49:40] It’s a beautiful.

Sophie Lovett: City. Just stunning.

Ashley King: One of the only cities where we haven’t knocked down all the old buildings [00:49:45] and replace them with, like, cardboard apartment buildings.

Sophie Lovett: So it’s really pretty nice. [00:49:50]

Payman Langroudi: Why have you been there?

Sophie Lovett: I’ve been all over the US. Um, it’s just, I [00:49:55] don’t know, just. I’ve been there twice, actually. Normally don’t go back to the same place, but it’s just somewhere that really drew. [00:50:00] I don’t know, I was drawn to it. They call it the Europe of the South. Um, and [00:50:05] the Europe of America. But one thing that I find really confusing [00:50:10] is the lobby groups. So if if something is bad for you, you know, [00:50:15] I don’t know, antibiotics in pork or um, OxyContin, [00:50:20] um, or guns, you can have these big kind of short [00:50:25] termist groups that will lobby for something that is just [00:50:30] for, you know, to commercially help themselves. I’m not against, you [00:50:35] know, making a buck at all. But I think, you know, you’ve also got to [00:50:40] think about what’s the next generation, how’s this going to impact? And I do think that.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:50:45] politics is more corrupt.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s just intrinsic. You know, that’s not going to change [00:50:50] about now. But yeah.

Ashley King: This is a bigger picture [00:50:55] of what we were talking about with, you know, private versus public health care. Yeah. When [00:51:00] you’re a politician, you’re supposed to be a public servant. It’s the same as if you’re providing health care. We [00:51:05] have privatised these things and made them about money. And that is why, [00:51:10] I mean, it’s kind of all crumbling down in a way if you if you look at it.

Sophie Lovett: But [00:51:15] yeah, you look at Europe though, and you know, I’m bashing this, but I’m also, you know, you look at Europe and the UK and I [00:51:20] don’t think that we’re productive anymore. I think we’ve got a little bit lazy. So there has to be [00:51:25] I think there’s we’ve just become so polarised in terms of this almost Marxist [00:51:30] communist, a super high capital. You know, there’s where is the middle ground [00:51:35] of let’s be able, let’s enable people to make money, but also let’s [00:51:40] be altruistic. And, you know, let’s have a rising tide.

Payman Langroudi: The middle is not holding. You [00:51:45] know, that’s the thing. We’re not in that era of the middle. No, we are in the polarised era. [00:51:50]

Sophie Lovett: When was the era New Labour?

Payman Langroudi: Blair.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I saw a video about.

Ashley King: This actually on [00:51:55] Instagram today and it was talking about how in Manchester the [00:52:00] there was a seat. I’m sorry, I don’t know much about politics here. I just try to stay out of politics [00:52:05] in general, which is very privileged. But anyway, um they had, they were very concerned that [00:52:10] this Labour seat was going to go to the other side. And then in terms what [00:52:15] ended up happening is it went to the Green Party and their thing was you need to be ultra left [00:52:20] in order to like, even out the right.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Ashley King: And I think this is why Kamala [00:52:25] lost in the US to Trump because she was almost too centrist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although they [00:52:30] put her on a bit late, didn’t they? That was that was the thing.

Ashley King: Well that didn’t that didn’t help. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but you know, [00:52:35] this question of like the centre. The middle. Yeah. Um you almost what you’re [00:52:40] saying is you have to be a populist, you have to come out with populism, whether [00:52:45] you’re right wing or left wing.

Sophie Lovett: What do you go back. It’s like moving bees. You can’t just move them a little bit. You’ve got to move them [00:52:50] a lot to get them back to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like the pendulum swings too far [00:52:55] in both directions.

Sophie Lovett: It’s a shame that we’ve allowed the pendulum to shift. I mean, [00:53:00] I just I’m.

Ashley King: It’s the horseshoe theory. Have you heard of that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Speaker 6: Go on.

Ashley King: It’s like what [00:53:05] you know, this is the the left. And then you’ve become so right that you’re.

Speaker 6: Actually on the other [00:53:10] side of the horseshoe.

Payman Langroudi: Like a Nazi is closer to the communist than he is.

Ashley King: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: But one [00:53:15] thing I’ve noticed though, whenever I’m with Ashley, people always ask about politics. Go straight into it. [00:53:20] It’s just kind of the default at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: Of Trump and all.

Sophie Lovett: That.

Ashley King: I feel like I’m on an apology tour for my country. [00:53:25] Like, I’m just like, I’m sorry about. I’m sorry about what my president tweeted on Easter. [00:53:30] Like, I do not ascribe to that. You know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You said you’re not political, but how do you feel [00:53:35] about the Republicans like representing the worker nowadays? [00:53:40] I mean, it’s a weird thing, isn’t it? Like we’ve got a similar situation. Like, you [00:53:45] know, Labour were for the workers, conservatives for the for the, you know, the owners call [00:53:50] it. Yeah. But in America, it’s kind of switched around. Whereas, yeah, before [00:53:55] the Democrats were for the workers and the Republicans were for the money people. Now it’s kind of switched [00:54:00] around. The Democrats are more part of the elite now.

Sophie Lovett: And no, I do.

Ashley King: I think it’s actually [00:54:05] if you look at the policies, for example, the tax cuts that Trump did, [00:54:10] it benefited billionaires more than it did the average person. So I [00:54:15] think we I think Republicans, they cosplay as helping [00:54:20] the average person. But if you look at people who switched.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t generally switch. People [00:54:25] generally are either.

Ashley King: I would say I switched.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Ashley King: Switched. I grew up very Christian, conservative. [00:54:30] And, you know, my family was like pretty, [00:54:35] not blue collar, but I mean, my grandpa grandpas were both trained engineers.

Sophie Lovett: And your me. [00:54:40]

Ashley King: Me, me malls were stay at home moms, you know what I mean? So like, we’re from West Virginia, [00:54:45] you know, pretty, pretty Republican. But no, I and I’ve seen even my family, [00:54:50] they’ve become more centrist even. So, yeah, maybe not even [00:54:55] centrist. I think people in the US are like almost looking for like, you’re lucky here. You don’t have [00:55:00] the two party system. We’re stuck with two parties, and a lot of people find they don’t [00:55:05] identify with either. That’s how I would describe myself.

Sophie Lovett: Do you not say that we’ve predominantly had a two party, [00:55:10] certainly in my lifetime these days.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s looking like more coalitions. I mean, for the next [00:55:15] election you had the Greens like, like Labour’s losing to the Greens on one side and to reform on the other [00:55:20] side, and it probably will end up being some sort of coalition.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: This is good though. You [00:55:25] need to have options. We were we weren’t designed as a country to be a two party system. But I think it’s really [00:55:30] messing us up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think Rory Stewart calls for kind of like government jury duty, [00:55:35] doesn’t he? Where it should just be. Everyone does it for a year. And then [00:55:40] back to I.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s going to be AI in the end. Yeah. Ai.

Sophie Lovett: I don’t understand why. It’s why [00:55:45] things aren’t gone. I feel like our current government, [00:55:50] I just wish they would have put it through AI. You know, some of the I.

Ashley King: Will say, I know we’re [00:55:55] using it in war and it’s made some mistakes.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, of course. [00:56:00]

Ashley King: So I think once again, it’s like using AI on an X-ray. You want to make sure you’re.

Payman Langroudi: How are. [00:56:05]

Ashley King: You using.

Payman Langroudi: Ai in your work outside of Pearl itself being an AI.

Ashley King: System? Oh, man.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:56:10] you into Claude?

Ashley King: Oh, I am into what I call her Claudia. Because I’m like a man would [00:56:15] never be this helpful. So it’s a woman. Um, but yes. Claude [00:56:20] Cowork, um, I think I was messaging one of my colleagues. I spent £60 [00:56:25] this month so far on extra tokens because I keep running out of usage. [00:56:30] Wow. Um, it’s worth it though. Time is money.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you doing with it?

Ashley King: Okay, so, um, [00:56:35] we’re very fortunate at Pearl, by the way, to be able to be pretty [00:56:40] open with the AI systems we use.

Sophie Lovett: They really encourage it.

Ashley King: So many of my friends who I’m [00:56:45] like, are you using Claude Cowork? Like, I’m like a Claude evangelist, I should get a referral [00:56:50] code or something. But, um, what I do is I connect my gmail, [00:56:55] my notion, my meeting recording notes, my Slack, all of these different [00:57:00] entities that I’m working on into it. And then I use it to.

Payman Langroudi: Run [00:57:05] your whole life.

Ashley King: Run my entire life. Yeah. Like every morning it runs through my emails and tells [00:57:10] me which ones I should respond to automatically types out a draft in my like vocal. [00:57:15] How I would type my voice.

Payman Langroudi: Voice?

Ashley King: Yeah. Um, and this is just, this is surface [00:57:20] level stuff. But if you look at my Instagram algorithm, you were talking about the discover page earlier. It’s all about [00:57:25] clouds. That’s how I learn my scroll time is just flawed.

Sophie Lovett: But it’s we were [00:57:30] talking about this the other day and somebody described you absolutely beautifully, didn’t they? They said your toxic [00:57:35] productivity, um, Ashley is basically productive. So [00:57:40] we were talking about, although you’ve got all these automations, it’s [00:57:45] still not saving you time because you’re actually surfacing other things and newer things. So even [00:57:50] though you are productive in that you’re because you are now so productive, [00:57:55] you’re being asked to do more things. And so.

Ashley King: This is working at a Start-Up and you know.

Sophie Lovett: Exactly, [00:58:00] I think.

Ashley King: The, the, if I was working at an average job, corporate [00:58:05] especially, and, or even being a dentist, like the How I think about AI [00:58:10] for everyone is it’s going to do the stuff that you don’t want to do. [00:58:15] Sending emails. No one likes to check their emails. You know, all these things to allow you to do [00:58:20] actual meaningful work and also to do things like this. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: Have conversations. [00:58:25]

Ashley King: Conversations with humans.

Payman Langroudi: And what we were talking about yesterday, we had a meeting and, uh, [00:58:30] I was discussing with my partner, there’s a few people in our organisation who’ve taken it on like [00:58:35] fully and a few who haven’t. And you can see the [00:58:40] ones who’ve taken it on are accelerating. Yeah. I mean, beyond anything, I [00:58:45] mean, we’ve got one, one girl who works for us who she’s started. She knows [00:58:50] more about toothpaste than I do, like in a, in a period of three months. Yeah. [00:58:55] We had a meeting with this chemist. Yeah. Like, and I was just [00:59:00] watching her talking to this chemist like three months ago. She had nothing to do with [00:59:05] toothpaste. Yeah. Wow. But she’s the type of person who will just dive into something, isn’t it? Yeah, [00:59:10] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I think you have to be curious. And do you know what I, I [00:59:15] feel really lucky that we, I don’t feel that we worry about our [00:59:20] jobs because we’re looking at ways of adopting AI ourselves and working with it and, [00:59:25] you know, finding other other things to do to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you mean you mean you’re not going to get replaced by AI?

Sophie Lovett: I [00:59:30] personally well, hopefully.

Payman Langroudi: Not, not yet.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, there are you were mentioning, you know, it [00:59:35] can do emails and stuff. So I can see it being a huge worry for people. You know, if I was just doing data entry, [00:59:40] for example. Yeah. And things that. But, um, what I would like to stress [00:59:45] though, you know, not just with Pearl AI, but all these other LLMs, the large language [00:59:50] models, other AI’s is that we, we who use [00:59:55] it don’t ostracise others by making it sound too complicated because they, [01:00:00] they, anyone can use it. But I think people feel really, really shy [01:00:05] and nervous about using it because they just haven’t dipped their toe in the water yet. And people are almost creating [01:00:10] language that is a barrier to other people who haven’t yet dipped their toes in the water. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s serving us. It’s we’re serving it.

Sophie Lovett: So then that’s what you’re saying. You know, almost 50% of your [01:00:20] staff are 50% aren’t. You know, it shouldn’t be that way. You know, people should all be trying it. [01:00:25] Um, and, you know, if I could explain how to use it really, [01:00:30] really simply, it is, don’t use it as a way of googling something. You know, [01:00:35] what you put in is what you’ll get out. So you can, if you are super smart and you can do the essays [01:00:40] like you did at university, it will just help enhance that. But you still have to have the smarts to [01:00:45] put in to get the smarts out.

Ashley King: It’s a mirror. Just anything in life is a mirror. Let me tell you where I’m [01:00:50] concerned about. You know, the the people that are and aren’t using AI. I’m [01:00:55] worried about women because there’s a I saw a stat and it was like, [01:01:00] I think 50% less women are using AI tools [01:01:05] than men, right? And let me tell you why.

Sophie Lovett: That’s really interesting.

Ashley King: There’s this whole [01:01:10] one big reason. There’s a whole debate around the ethics of AI. [01:01:15] The amount of energy that it consumes, you know, and this is. Yeah, exactly. People [01:01:20] are also just worried that it’s going to take us away from the human element that we’ve spoken about. Very valid. [01:01:25] Any new technology that happens, we have fears, but I think women [01:01:30] tend to be more empathetic to that. And if you even [01:01:35] look at the jobs that women have, we’re more likely to be nurses, teachers, whatever. Whether that’s socially [01:01:40] programmed or inherent, that’s another topic. But because of that, a lot of [01:01:45] women, because of ethics are not using AI.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [01:01:50] worried about the planet, the environmental planet.

Ashley King: Also, just the fact that, you know, [01:01:55] robots take over, especially.

Payman Langroudi: Women are like slower adopters than men on tech tech. [01:02:00]

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s this boys club again, though, you know, it’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Ring.

Sophie Lovett: Fencing. Men are ring fencing. Things to [01:02:05] be like, oh, don’t worry, don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Look at it. Men haven’t done it. They like. Eyes moved so quickly. There’s a man telling you [01:02:10] not to go on.

Sophie Lovett: No, but I think, again, it’s this kind of ostracising by language, but also by, you know, [01:02:15] you know, don’t worry about looking at that. Don’t worry about it.

Ashley King: It was created by men as well. All most LMS are [01:02:20] were trained by men like the programmers were men, probably 80% of them. [01:02:25] And now men are using it and women are like, I’m worried that we’re being left behind and we’re going to regret.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:02:30] on to the whole women, women in the workplace kind of subject. Yeah. Now let’s talk about [01:02:35] that. Let’s do that outside of AI. Leave AI to one side.

Sophie Lovett: We just talk about how our [01:02:40] team is just formed of the most indomitable women. Yeah we [01:02:45] are.

Payman Langroudi: We’re on purpose or by mistake.

Sophie Lovett: Um, I think it’s [01:02:50] by purpose that we’re all. I really think it.

Ashley King: Might partially be on purpose, even from some of our leaders [01:02:55] who have made hires. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve spoken to a fear about it. He’s like, I the [01:03:00] all the women that I’ve hired, they are the hardest workers. Yeah, they’re they get [01:03:05] things done. They don’t look at things surface level. They look at the entire picture and. [01:03:10]

Payman Langroudi: They say, okay, let me give you an example of what could be holding women back [01:03:15] in the workplace. And actually it’s for me, it’s like a double edged thing because I’ve [01:03:20] noticed not all women, but quite a lot of women. Yeah. Don’t [01:03:25] ever ask for a pay rise. They they wait, they wait. Not, not [01:03:30] you too. Obviously. They.

Sophie Lovett: Actually tell us what you got told [01:03:35] off for us.

Payman Langroudi: Let me give you some of my favourite employees. The [01:03:40] type of person who doesn’t ask.

Ashley King: You’re absolutely right. By the way, one of those essays I wrote.

Sophie Lovett: No [01:03:45] no no.

Payman Langroudi: No no, I’m telling you, they, they suffer by not asking.

Sophie Lovett: Totally because.

Payman Langroudi: There’s other people who [01:03:50] push hard. And in the end, you just don’t want to lose that person. So you give them more. Yeah. [01:03:55] And it’s it’s as I think it’s a female thing. Yeah, that too many women, you [01:04:00] know, maybe. Maybe it’s a man problem being over aggressive. Yeah, but too many [01:04:05] women wait to be asked or wait, you know, they don’t they don’t put their hand up.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. So for [01:04:10] me personally, I feel like everything had to be the right environment for me [01:04:15] to ask it. And I kept thinking about all the things that I was doing wrong that didn’t warrant it. Whereas [01:04:20] I think that sometimes men can just use a lack of critical thinking to go [01:04:25] in there and just be like me, one nasty, almost caveman like.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like a man who doesn’t [01:04:30] deserve it will last. But a woman who does deserve it won’t ask.

Sophie Lovett: And I think that sometimes [01:04:35] women also wait for times. We’re always like, [01:04:40] the diet will start on Monday, or we’re going to ask for it next quarter, or we’re going to ask [01:04:45] it in January when I know somebody else was. And I think that sometimes we almost adhere ourselves [01:04:50] too much to these timelines, whereas men I don’t know whether it’s because they don’t have kind of [01:04:55] lunar cycles are just like, now is fine, now is fine. So, [01:05:00] um, I, yeah, like I said, I, you know, I was joking about it, but Ashley and I have been [01:05:05] through this recently and I’m sorry, but it’s going to happen again in a couple of weeks because we really [01:05:10] want to buck that trend. And I think there are ways in which we can enable women [01:05:15] to do these things, but it does start with ourselves that we have to ask more because when you ask, [01:05:20] you get.

Payman Langroudi: At the same time, I don’t really believe in a gender pay gap.

Sophie Lovett: Um, [01:05:25] tell me more.

Ashley King: Okay, so one of those ten 000 word essays I wrote was [01:05:30] on the gender.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve looked into this.

Sophie Lovett: Um, ding ding ding.

Ashley King: Yeah. So, and [01:05:35] I didn’t write it with ChatGPT. So I actually remember when I wrote this was like ten [01:05:40] years ago, but you’re right in your theory, in terms of your theory of women do not ask [01:05:45] for raises as much as men. And, um, however, while that’s a big piece [01:05:50] and I’ve seen it even with my friends who I speak to, um, that don’t work at Pearl. [01:05:55] They’re they’re just very afraid. We’re we’re less risk averse in general. [01:06:00] That comes with socialisation as well. But if you do look at women [01:06:05] who have been successful and the higher the role of a woman. [01:06:10] So say I’m a CEO, you’re a CEO, the pay gap increases. [01:06:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Sophie Lovett: So there’s not as many female CEOs [01:06:20] in the same industry.

Ashley King: Correct. And so if we’re a CEO in the same industry, [01:06:25] like let’s say you’re working for a competitor, um, you’re [01:06:30] probably making $0.40 on the dollar more than me versus [01:06:35] 20.

Payman Langroudi: But then don’t you think if that was the case, I would only hire women, [01:06:40] wouldn’t I? Because women are cheaper.

Ashley King: Maybe that’s why we have so many.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But then okay, so you’ve got a woman [01:06:45] sitting in front of you. She’s great, but she’s just got married and she’s 31. [01:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: What do you what’s next.

Sophie Lovett: In your mind? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going you’re right. It’s [01:06:55] going through my head. It’s going through.

Sophie Lovett: What’s going through your head.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have maternity soon.

Sophie Lovett: So why [01:07:00] don’t you just have a whole host of women, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Well [01:07:05] we do. We’ve got more women than men, right?

Sophie Lovett: Um, but so I was being facetious there. Right. [01:07:10] You know, I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Just if I’m honest in that situation, I’m thinking she’s going to be off soon. Maybe [01:07:15] for, for childcare. Yeah. That’s right. Now the reason for the pay gap is the childcare. [01:07:20] Yeah. Like that’s, you know.

Ashley King: Part of it.

Payman Langroudi: If your career gets cut by four years. That’s [01:07:25] absolutely part of it. You’re going to be behind. I think there’s not because you’re a woman. I think it’s twofold.

Ashley King: I [01:07:30] think it’s twofold. So you have we’re less likely to ask. [01:07:35] You have also maternity leave, things like that. Yeah. There is an inherent [01:07:40] bias that we all carry for whether it’s internal misogyny, like racism, [01:07:45] whatever bias we have, stereotypes that we hold, we might not even realise it. And I do think [01:07:50] I’ve experienced this, which I try to just not acknowledge it in my head because I think [01:07:55] your thoughts create your reality. So like, let’s not focus on this, but if I go to [01:08:00] my boss and ask for a raise every couple of months because my title keeps changing, [01:08:05] versus if a man who did the same thing did it, she’s also a woman. She might [01:08:10] not realise it, but it might piss her off that I did it versus him.

Speaker 7: Do you think [01:08:15] I mean.

Ashley King: Do you think people hold inherent biases?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:20] Well, then should we take it to the other side then? Let’s go. Surely [01:08:25] there’s some advantage to being a woman selling to some man.

Sophie Lovett: I’ll tell you what. I never used to think of any advantages [01:08:30] of being a woman. And now I see it all the time. I really do. I think that, um, [01:08:35] I think the the women are talking, you know, we are grouping together. Now. I [01:08:40] am talking more and more to my friends about, okay, where’s the best savings account? [01:08:45] How are we going to invest? You know? The conversations are really, really shifting. We’re talking [01:08:50] to each other about how, you know, you need to go in that room and ask for a pay rise. I [01:08:55] think the conversations are really shifting and shifting away from just [01:09:00] using the kind of preconceived notions of femininity, [01:09:05] but now using looking at femininity as more power. And [01:09:10] yeah, I think also women have always talked more. [01:09:15] And I think that makes us incredibly lucky. And we’ve got an advantage over men because [01:09:20] you just don’t open up, as you know, and being you know what’s interesting?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been in some [01:09:25] I mean, maybe a few years ago, some like a boardroom in the US where there’s a woman [01:09:30] executive. Yeah. And she’s being incredibly aggressive and acting like a man. Yeah. [01:09:35] And I think this, this is the shift that we really need to see, that you don’t want to act [01:09:40] like an aggressive man. Yeah. As a woman, that’s that’s the.

Sophie Lovett: Worst shift, haven’t we, from that like, oh, [01:09:45] you’ve got to be a man. And to know we’ve now found our new thing. We’re not giving you [01:09:50] the secret, though, because I.

Ashley King: Think it goes back to have you. Have you [01:09:55] guys seen the Barbie movie? There’s that whole speech that. What is it, Cameron? I forget [01:10:00] her name, but she gives. She’s like, you have to be aggressive, but you can’t be too aggressive. You have to be [01:10:05] beautiful, but you can’t be too beautiful. It’s like all these things where it’s like, you [01:10:10] know, this is the way I think about life in general. We are all dealt a hand of cards. [01:10:15] Play your cards right. Don’t worry about what was dealt to you. It’s in your hand. Play [01:10:20] it like I could sit around and focus on. Does this person have an inherent bias? And is that [01:10:25] why they’re not giving me a raise? But that’s a waste of time. What hand have I been dealt [01:10:30] and how can I play it to the best of my ability? Um, I think I would. I’m [01:10:35] so glad that I’m a woman right now. I look at my mom and my grandma. They did not have the same opportunities as me [01:10:40] and.

Payman Langroudi: The shift then, I mean, you two are earning well, you’re, you know, [01:10:45] powerful businesswomen, right? The shift in society in that you no longer need [01:10:50] a man to look after you. Yeah. Like the, the classical old, like [01:10:55] the way your mom and grandma had to, like, get security from a marriage.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, yeah. I always had. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: To.

Sophie Lovett: Come out to my parents.

Payman Langroudi: To relationships then.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: Women expect men to have empathy [01:11:05] now. Oh, really? Basic empathy is required.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Ashley King: I think whereas before, [01:11:10] if you were providing financially, that was enough.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I almost had to [01:11:15] kind of come out to my parents that I’m not going to get married and have children. And they [01:11:20] were really upset because I’ve got four brothers.

Payman Langroudi: You’re the only girl.

Sophie Lovett: I’m the only girl. And I [01:11:25] said to them, I then kind of framed it in a different way, um, and said, you know, [01:11:30] what do you want for me in general? And they said, we want you to be happy. And I said, this is what makes me happiest. [01:11:35] You know, the, you know, and I’m not a kind of I don’t think I’m doing it in [01:11:40] a masculine way, but I’m Working really, really hard and not saying that [01:11:45] that’s because I’m not with somebody and because I don’t have children, but I just really enjoy [01:11:50] this, this phase of my life. I really, really like it.

Payman Langroudi: But you never know because, I mean, I’ve [01:11:55] heard that so many times. And then the person’s got three kids.

Ashley King: You never know.

Sophie Lovett: I’m too old [01:12:00] for that now anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: No you’re not. What was it like? Cameron Diaz [01:12:05] had a baby at, like, 50 or something. Yeah, you never know.

Sophie Lovett: No. Thank you. I appreciate the.

Payman Langroudi: Reflections. I mean, [01:12:10] the difference does that in in dating, in marriage and all that. The [01:12:15] fact that you’re powerful, you’re self-reliant. Has that changed? Has that changed your relationship [01:12:20] with men?

Ashley King: I think for the better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Yeah. [01:12:25] I would say even just in the last year, I, I recently became single [01:12:30] at the end of last year and I was in a really long relationship before that. So [01:12:35] before and after I went from being pretty like low level, you know, trying to get by [01:12:40] to, you know, succeeding fairly well. I shouldn’t say that to British people. Sorry, we’re not [01:12:45] allowed to say that.

Sophie Lovett: I think I’m doing okay. I think because.

Ashley King: You’re approaching it, you’re [01:12:50] approaching dating when you’re in a circumstance like us is like, it’s just extra. [01:12:55] It’s it’s something to add. I’m a fully formed person. I expect you to be the same. Um, [01:13:00] it’s like I saw this thing and it said one plus one doesn’t equal two in a relationship. It equals 11. [01:13:05] The idea is that you’re both fully formed people. You come together and then the [01:13:10] your output is exponential.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Ashley King: That’s how I see it. So not having like [01:13:15] the scarcity like mentality around it is nice, but then no one has to give you.

Payman Langroudi: Anything like marriage [01:13:20] no longer as important as it was.

Sophie Lovett: I mean, for me, no, I mean, just I really [01:13:25] like my own space. I like coming home. I like looking after myself. I like doing, I it’s all about timing for me. [01:13:30] I want to do what I want to do on my own timing. And I know that that sounds and is [01:13:35] inherently selfish. But the choice for me is I want to do what I want to do [01:13:40] with my time.

Ashley King: I think it’d be selfish if you weren’t building and doing cool things that are ultimately [01:13:45] helping society, but.

Sophie Lovett: You will never know what it’s like to be a parent. And the [01:13:50] the real selflessness that goes into that.

Ashley King: I think I hot take this is contrarian. [01:13:55] Someone said this the other day, actually, it was a few months ago, but he was like, oh yeah, [01:14:00] I’m not I’m not having kids yet. I’m still being selfish. I actually think in a way, having kids [01:14:05] is selfish. And the reason I say that is twofold. Obviously, the fact [01:14:10] that we just already have so many people on this planet, like 8 billion people, that’s insane. [01:14:15] Do we need more people? You know, and we have limited resources on this planet. So [01:14:20] I think that’s a little selfish. But also, I think so many people have [01:14:25] kids because they’re looking for their children to provide them with a purpose. And it’s the default way to do that. It’s a very [01:14:30] easy way to find your purpose. And I think it can be a bit of a lazy way to find your purpose. This [01:14:35] is another thing.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t want kids. Why are you not sure?

Ashley King: I’m not sure.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:14:40] don’t think either of us have written it off entirely. But at the moment, I think we’re kind of living for the moment. [01:14:45] I. I had this date once, and I didn’t. I don’t [01:14:50] know what happened, but the guy said to me, I have a real fetish of powerful women. I [01:14:55] was like, what? When did that become a thing?

Ashley King: Was this the guy that worked at, like, Jiffy [01:15:00] Lube? Sorry, that’s not like it’s like a.

Sophie Lovett: It was a nice guy, but [01:15:05] it was like, when did this become a fetish? And also, you know, I don’t know why I’m doing to come [01:15:10] across as this kind of powerhouse. It’s strange. It’s almost like.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:15:15] it put you off?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, I find it really strange. I found [01:15:20] it quite. Do you think you.

Ashley King: Come off as, like, masculine and powerful when you’re dating?

Sophie Lovett: No, but a bit. Maybe [01:15:25] a bit. Kind of. I if if something if somebody. I don’t like dilly dallying. Right. [01:15:30] So if it comes to the bill and somebody’s dilly dallying, I’ll just pay it.

Ashley King: Oh, yeah. No. Not [01:15:35] me. See, I’m. I’m the opposite in dating than I am at work. Like I’m at work. I’m [01:15:40] masculine. I’m getting shit done. When I’m dating. I’m like a totally different [01:15:45] person.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s interesting.

Ashley King: Yeah. I step into my feminine energy because [01:15:50] I’m, you know, I’m a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Is that because you think guys like to kind of look [01:15:55] at you feel that they want to look after somebody?

Ashley King: Um, like I [01:16:00] don’t, I don’t necessarily, I don’t know, I think it’s like our masculine [01:16:05] and feminine energy complement each other, obviously. And there are some relationships [01:16:10] where the woman is more masculine, the man is more feminine, and it’s even and personally, [01:16:15] like we’re always, everyone has masculine and feminine energy, even boys. And for [01:16:20] me though, I just like feel most relaxed when I’m in my feminine [01:16:25] more leaning toward my feminine energy. And I want a man to pay and plan. Okay, [01:16:30] then I’m there.

Payman Langroudi: Controversial, controversial question. Then I look at my friend group [01:16:35] here and out of the people I know, there’s maybe four couples [01:16:40] where the woman’s clearly out earning the man. Yeah. And [01:16:45] I used to think, why not? Yeah. I think what’s what’s wrong with that? You know, [01:16:50] completely like egalitarian, sort of progressive kind of view on it. But when I [01:16:55] look at those four relationships, only one of them’s really worked. Yeah. And that one, her [01:17:00] father had 100 million. You know, there was no way this.

Ashley King: What do you think the difference is between [01:17:05] them?

Payman Langroudi: So this is the thing. I think it’s a little bit for a man emasculating. It’s a little bit like for [01:17:10] a man, let’s say you have an argument, a guy and a girl and the woman is [01:17:15] earning more than the man. Yeah. In that argument, if money comes up, which often, [01:17:20] often money is a cause of friction, right? If money comes up in that argument, [01:17:25] a man to be told he’s not earning his keep is a [01:17:30] much bigger insult than for a woman.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so, so, so it [01:17:35] and a lot of women are aware of the size of that insult to a man. Like for a man, it’s [01:17:40] a big deal not being able to provide.

Ashley King: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because of programming. Yeah. But but yeah, but [01:17:45] also because of maybe the way we are chemically. Right. And like the way you switch in, in your dating [01:17:50] to this feminine thing because you are this feminine thing. Yeah. That’s real. Yeah. Maybe you’re switching at [01:17:55] work to this masculine thing. You know, the real you is the, the date you, you know, for whatever. [01:18:00] I mean, not.

Ashley King: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And those relationships just aren’t right. You know, if the man is feeling inferior, [01:18:05] if the woman is feeling like she needs.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about dating or marrying someone [01:18:10] who earns less than you? And by the way, it’s a huge industry. It’s a huge.

Sophie Lovett: Industry like ambition. [01:18:15] And I like lack of laziness and I like drive. And I think that if you’re striving towards [01:18:20] something, often that yearning towards something is then [01:18:25] shown as earning. So I think it’s about a drive and an and energy.

Payman Langroudi: But not always. [01:18:30]

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, but it’s not. And you know, you can have people who start businesses. But I just think that, um, I [01:18:35] just really.

Ashley King: Wanted to the you’re worried about the person’s values versus their income.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. [01:18:40] That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So let’s say you get together with someone and you earn twice what he [01:18:45] earns, and then you’re buying a house or something and you’re paying twice as much for this house.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Well, I [01:18:50] pay for everything anyway. And secondly, I’m always going to live alone and not with anyone. So it just doesn’t it just [01:18:55] doesn’t bother me. I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: Any rule on this. Do you find it, like, problematic [01:19:00] if you’re dating someone who earns less than you?

Sophie Lovett: I mean, I find it.

Ashley King: It’s probably I [01:19:05] would say that it’s statistically likely that someone would [01:19:10] earn less. I think it’s like 80% of people in the UK, like make less than 60 K [01:19:15] or something or 40 K.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But statistics.

Ashley King: Are statistically. Yeah. But um, [01:19:20] no, you know what, I think I agree with you, Sophie, that it’s the values that [01:19:25] matter. I want someone that’s a hard worker. But also there’s to me, you can provide [01:19:30] value outside of money and capitalism, right? Like [01:19:35] if you’re doing the little things like making sure we don’t [01:19:40] run out of milk for our tea in the morning, you know, it’s much more [01:19:45] than just a dollar amount.

Sophie Lovett: Tightness is a curse. Tightness is a curse, you know, [01:19:50] but you can.

Payman Langroudi: Overspending is a curse.

Sophie Lovett: Overspending is a curse. But you go to places that are fit [01:19:55] within what you can afford, you know, so it wouldn’t. I think the good thing about women is that we do [01:20:00] not need to be showing off all the time. As soon as a man is earning a certain amount, I actually, this [01:20:05] is the one thing that I really think has changed recently in my mind about why [01:20:10] it’s so good to be a woman is that as soon as a man starts earning more, [01:20:15] he then has to start going to the clubs that show he earns more. He has to send [01:20:20] his kids to private school to, you know, then go to the private dentist or go to the clubs [01:20:25] and have, you know, I’m a member of this. I’m a member of that. I’m wearing the.

Payman Langroudi: Woman to buy a handbag or whatever. [01:20:30]

Sophie Lovett: But they don’t have to, you know, it could be that the woman could just do much more [01:20:35] silent wealth. We don’t have to, you know, our friendship groups tend to stay the same. We actually tend to stay with. [01:20:40] And then.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right in that a man’s value ends up sometimes being how much money he makes, and.

Sophie Lovett: Then.

Payman Langroudi: It can.

Sophie Lovett: Cost [01:20:45] so much more. So actually, when they sometimes when people earn more, it means it unlocks [01:20:50] different opportunities that can be much more costly [01:20:55] where. And also it’s, you know, if other men because as [01:21:00] I said, I’ve got four brothers. If other men don’t see that person spending in line with their new [01:21:05] wealth, that will be questioned, whereas women will say, well done, this is amazing, you know, [01:21:10] and then they’ll start talking about how how they can get there. I have a I had a really interesting [01:21:15] week this week already. I did, um, a specialist [01:21:20] training with two different specialist practice this week. One was all [01:21:25] female specialists and one was all male specialists. I’ve never had that before.

Payman Langroudi: All female [01:21:30] specialists.

Sophie Lovett: All female specialists. And then I like that you weren’t surprised about the all male specialists. Um, [01:21:35] but the difference in the conversation, the women were saying [01:21:40] whenever someone was asking a question, they were saying, oh yeah, I want to know that too. Can you expand on it? And it was kind [01:21:45] of like this group mentality of everyone was supporting each other. So when I did [01:21:50] the male specialist training, I don’t know how it happened like this. They were po faced. [01:21:55] They didn’t say anything. It was the hardest one. And then they just fired these questions and it was almost [01:22:00] like they were.

Ashley King: Like, gotcha questions.

Sophie Lovett: Oh yeah.

Ashley King: Rather than like curiosity.

Sophie Lovett: Competition, competition. [01:22:05] And nobody was saying, oh, I wanted to find that out too. And well done. And then in the corridor, they [01:22:10] all came up to me and they were secretly asking questions and saying how much they loved it. I [01:22:15] thought, what did you say in the South? Oh, bless your hearts. You know, it’s a shame that [01:22:20] they couldn’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: The reason I bring up this earning thing here. It’s huge in dentistry. There’s loads of [01:22:25] women are primary earner dentists that they [01:22:30] are dentists. The husband isn’t. Yeah. And dentists earn a lot. Some of them. Yeah. So there’s loads of [01:22:35] those. And there’s loads of hygienists who are the primary earner in their house. [01:22:40] And so I’d say it’s a bigger issue. I mean there are more not an issue. [01:22:45] But there’s there’s more women who are primary earners in dentistry than there [01:22:50] is out there in society. And as I say, I like [01:22:55] ultra progressive to the end. And yet now when I see these couples [01:23:00] that I’m talking about now, I’m thinking maybe.

Sophie Lovett: Don’t worry though, because the grandkids are getting married to [01:23:05] robots.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Ashley King: That’s a concern. But I [01:23:10] want to weigh in.

Sophie Lovett: Question is mu.

Ashley King: Let me tell you, like all of these all [01:23:15] these conversations we are having, I think they start off [01:23:20] as how is the patriarchy affecting women? Is what we could say, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. [01:23:25] But one thing we don’t talk about is how it’s affecting men as well. [01:23:30] So you just gave a great example, Sophie. But I also think that [01:23:35] this like, fundamental way that it’s programmed us men and women [01:23:40] hurts us. So in terms of if I’m in a relationship and I’m making more money, [01:23:45] and I’m with a man who, rather than actually being like in his true healthy masculine [01:23:50] is almost too programmed by the patriarchy to overvalue [01:23:55] the dollar amount. Yeah, yeah. Then it’s not going to go well [01:24:00] because his ego is just going to be hurt the entire time. So I think it’s the answer [01:24:05] to me is absolutely, those relationships can work, but you need someone who’s very secure in themselves [01:24:10] and isn’t ascribing to these like, ideals that are coming from these systems. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Have you been you’ve been to Holland? Yeah, I’ve.

Sophie Lovett: Been to the Netherlands.

Payman Langroudi: In in in Netherlands, you can’t hold a [01:24:20] door open for a woman. It’s a bit rude.

Sophie Lovett: I know we kept walking into.

Ashley King: The door open for everyone, but [01:24:25] for men and women.

Payman Langroudi: As a man, it’s a bit rude, you know, like the after you like it’s it’s not.

Sophie Lovett: On [01:24:30] there that that that saying go Dutch, go Dutch. Exactly.

Ashley King: I held the door open yesterday in [01:24:35] Greece for a man. He was very offended. Is that right? So you got to be careful holding [01:24:40] the door open for people, apparently.

Sophie Lovett: But, you know, so we were in the Netherlands not too long ago at the Netherlands [01:24:45] Dental show.

Payman Langroudi: And I love the Dutch. They are.

Sophie Lovett: Amazing. We love it. They come [01:24:50] up to us and they say we we hate you. We hate the look of you. We don’t like this. And [01:24:55] we think, oh my God, they’re so honest. Yeah. And then they say, and you think, oh gosh, [01:25:00] what’s the point of being here? And then they say, we will buy ten of your products. It’s just [01:25:05] it’s, you know, but yeah, it’s, it’s great. The honesty. We, we like that, don’t we? But [01:25:10] yeah, and what I found even in the Netherlands is a lot of people coming up and saying, [01:25:15] and a lot of hygienists own practices out there, and they say, I’m just a hygienist. [01:25:20] So I was thinking all of this great progression that they have in the Netherlands, [01:25:25] but people are still saying, I’m just a hygienist. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a there’s [01:25:30] a hierarchy in dentistry. You know, it’s difficult, but it’s real.

Sophie Lovett: But I’m talking about [01:25:35] there were probably about seven people who said that to me. All practice owners hygiene [01:25:40] only. So it’s not. So again, one thing I’ve really, really noticed about dentistry is it’s a pyramid [01:25:45] scheme of this kind of God figure at the top. And then it’s just always this pyramid [01:25:50] scheme. But you know, when you take away the that what is perceived as the head [01:25:55] of the pyramid scheme, i.e. the dentist or the specialist dentist away from it, why should [01:26:00] anybody be just, you know, why is anyone just we’ve got some amazing hygienist therapists, you’ve got Kat [01:26:05] London therapists and stuff. I think perceptions about roles really need to change [01:26:10] as well. And I think, again, that’s a feminine thing, a feminist thing. I think that we need [01:26:15] to start really talking ourselves up and being like, we’re doing a hell of a lot more as therapists and hygienists as some [01:26:20] dentists are. But I just thought that I’m just a was really surprising, particularly [01:26:25] in the Netherlands, where.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a country like that. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, you know, my arm was hurting from having [01:26:30] to open my own doors.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s get to some quick fires. What [01:26:35] would you guys say is your favourite business influence? Like your, your [01:26:40] person in business that you admire the most.

Ashley King: Inside or outside of Pearl? [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Outside of Pearl?

Ashley King: I’m really into Fred Kaufman right now. Who’s [01:26:50] that? He talks about compassionate leadership.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: Not many people know [01:26:55] about him. I learned about him from the CEO of LinkedIn, Jeff Weiner. Um, [01:27:00] he has this theory that businesses [01:27:05] fail because they go down two paths, which is I’m [01:27:10] responsible for my portion. You’re responsible for yours. So it’s more of like a democratic. And [01:27:15] then like what we do individually will make the company succeed. So that’s one path. Then there’s like the [01:27:20] more communist path, which is like we all pitch in, but we all know that that model does not [01:27:25] work. Um, his thing is in order to mitigate [01:27:30] silos, but also not be too communistic, you need to have [01:27:35] compassionate leadership, which is undying support and love for the people [01:27:40] that you work with. And so it’s almost like this emotional piece fitting [01:27:45] in with the logic of business. And I just think [01:27:50] it’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting though, you said to me, I said to her fear about, um, business [01:27:55] being like a bit of a family, which is kind of what you’re alluding to. And he said, he said, [01:28:00] certainly not pro sports team, not family.

Ashley King: No, I agree with that statement. And [01:28:05] okay, let me let me put it this way. You’re a goalie. What’s your job? [01:28:10]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Cody.

Ashley King: What’s [01:28:15] your what’s your job on the team? What’s your. Yeah, [01:28:20] but what do you do?

Sophie Lovett: I say he doesn’t like football.

Ashley King: You save goals. I don’t [01:28:25] like football either. But everyone knows what a goalie does, right? And most people’s answer [01:28:30] is block the ball from going into the goal. Right. But no, that’s not their job. Their job is to win. [01:28:35] Yeah, yeah. And so it’s this idea that people can, in a [01:28:40] company, you can become so self-focused if you don’t have support and love for the people [01:28:45] around you, you won’t be actually successful. I don’t the family thing is toxic. [01:28:50] Yeah. Like they say, you can’t fire your family. I think that’s what a fear said. Um, we’re [01:28:55] all working towards one goal together though, and it’s going to be a lot more fun. We’re going to be a lot more [01:29:00] successful if we actually like each other and support each other.

Payman Langroudi: For sure, for sure. And you’re kind of alluding to that famous [01:29:05] story about the janitor at the NASA who’s helping put the guy on the moon or whatever. Yeah. [01:29:10]

Ashley King: Same with the hygienist, right?

Sophie Lovett: Do you know what? I’m gonna be really [01:29:15] boring here, but every day I’m looking at what makes a commercial dental [01:29:20] practice or group run. And I’m not not found [01:29:25] the sweet spot yet because it’s it’s so different. But you can look at people like [01:29:30] Anushka from Dermira Dev Patel. I mean, what Fazeela has done for Coliseum. And then [01:29:35] you can look at something completely different, like Mark Allen’s impact at Bupa. [01:29:40] And I think that I know these aren’t people who’ve written well, maybe they are haven’t necessarily [01:29:45] written books, but they’ve all done something that is completely different. I mean, [01:29:50] dev looks at the US model and he’s got the kind of beauty partners model they’ve they’ve [01:29:55] just bought in Curadon. You’ve got Anushka who is just [01:30:00] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Extraordinary.

Sophie Lovett: Extraordinary in every sense in terms of how [01:30:05] she procures, how she runs her team. Everything. I mean, I [01:30:10] there must be 70 of her. I don’t know how she how she does it. And then she goes and does a marathon.

Speaker 8: Three [01:30:15] children, three children.

Sophie Lovett: Stunningly beautiful, you know. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I was thinking [01:30:20] more outside of that.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But I mean, I’m just looking at it from the commercial perspective as well, because now [01:30:25] nowadays where we’re looking to move, you know, we’re moving much away from the NHS model and [01:30:30] we’re still within an NHS system, how people are making this commercial [01:30:35] entity drive in. Um, you know, we’ve, we’ve went from kind [01:30:40] of like veneers ten, 15 years ago now we’ve got composite [01:30:45] and then it’s clear aligners and stuff. These people are constantly changing but constantly evolving and adapting [01:30:50] to this crazy commercial landscape. Um, and outside of, [01:30:55] outside of dental. Um, my absolute [01:31:00] mentor, um, Jess Clydesdale, who I went to university with [01:31:05] has been instrumental in, um, absolutely everything I’ve done in [01:31:10] terms of what jobs I’ve taken, what I should ask for, who I, who I speak [01:31:15] to about getting a pay rise. Like we bully each other up. Um, and I’m going to be a [01:31:20] complete sycophant here and say that Ashley and I talk every single day about how we can be better [01:31:25] every day. Um, yeah. Like I can look to these books and stuff.

Speaker 8: But man, [01:31:30] you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s obvious you’re enjoying yourself at the same time. It’s obvious you’re very professional. [01:31:35] You know, you’re, you’ve got a goal. You know, it’s not just fun.

Ashley King: It’s like you’re in it to win it. But [01:31:40] we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Also.

Ashley King: We’re best friends. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but it’s obvious you’re loving it. You know, you’re loving relationship. [01:31:45]

Sophie Lovett: You know what? We’re not always we don’t always. I feel like we don’t say what we want [01:31:50] to hear all the time. Like we say the things that are harder hitting that, you know, when [01:31:55] you love somebody so deeply that you can say things that are going to be constructively critical. [01:32:00] One of the best, best things that’s happened in my life is Ashley King in terms of [01:32:05] I think we’ve just really kind of supported each other up and we don’t [01:32:10] get jealous of each other. We are so excited. I mean, this was just supposed to be you today and [01:32:15] we just could be apart.

Ashley King: We’re a package deal. I there’s stats [01:32:20] that say if you work with your best friend, you’re more productive and you’re more likely to stay at your company. [01:32:25] Makes sense. And then at previous companies, I still talk to my best friend at that last [01:32:30] company. Like one of them, she just had a baby. And we send voice memos, you know, [01:32:35] weekly. And so I think it goes back to we’re spending most of our time at work. Why [01:32:40] not love the people that you work with? And it doesn’t mean that you’re the identity of your relationship [01:32:45] has to revolve completely around work. And it doesn’t mean that they have to [01:32:50] be family, because I think you can use and abuse people if you label them that way. But, [01:32:55] um, there’s just, I mean, we’re spending the time at work. Why not [01:33:00] do the most important thing in life and build relationships that matter.

Sophie Lovett: I think pearls is quite lucky [01:33:05] that it has such a well, it’s, you know, it’s done things. It’s done so many things right, [01:33:10] but it’s got such we’ve got such a good team. We’re about what, 300 now in the company. And but [01:33:15] there’s people who like working together. And because of that, I mean we work more hours than we [01:33:20] would if we didn’t enjoy each other’s company. Yeah. We have the best team here in the UK.

Ashley King: We’ll go to [01:33:25] dinner sometimes and, you know, just end up talking about work the whole time and then we’ll solve a [01:33:30] huge problem. But you know, you think about Paul Graham, who he he’s over Y Combinator. [01:33:35] He’s been a bunch of the early start-ups tech start-ups. He says don’t [01:33:40] start a company without a co-founder.

Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah. His big thing.

Ashley King: Yeah. It’s [01:33:45] super important. So you need to have your people and Sophie’s mine.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:50] about if I say, what’s your biggest mistake you’ve made in business? [01:33:55]

Ashley King: Um, for me, I would say trying [01:34:00] too hard.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to sell something [01:34:05] to someone who doesn’t want to buy it.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Ashley King: Or just, you know, you work with a partner, it’s not working [01:34:10] or you’re trying to go into a territory. The territory is a good example.

Sophie Lovett: I think it’s [01:34:15] a mistake. I love, you know, we’re.

Ashley King: Still working on it. We haven’t given up. But like we just don’t [01:34:20] have the right people or things in place right now to be successful there. Yeah. And it’s like sunk cost fallacy [01:34:25] almost. But I look back at all of the amazing things [01:34:30] that have happened to me and my successes, and a lot of them did not involve an [01:34:35] enormous amount of effort of trying to make it work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right.

Ashley King: It’s I believe.

Sophie Lovett: It was something that [01:34:40] just fit like it’s.

Ashley King: Alignment. Yeah, yeah. So I think, and, and when you’re trying [01:34:45] too hard, you’re not having fun.

Speaker 8: Yeah. You’re right.

Sophie Lovett: You know, something Ashley does is she’ll [01:34:50] tell you what she’s great at. And then you look at what she’s great at. My biggest mistake in [01:34:55] business and life was I used to not speak very nicely about myself, so I would go [01:35:00] in maybe for a 1 to 1 with a manager and I would say, I’m so sorry I haven’t done this yet. I’m [01:35:05] so, you know, apologising, you know, maybe not to that extent, but directing people towards my [01:35:10] flaws.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And again, I think that this is where I’m trying to change that. Maybe it’s a masculine thing [01:35:15] where you go in and you say, I have done this, I’m doing amazingly. How you know I’m [01:35:20] indispensable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a self-confidence issue, I guess.

Sophie Lovett: And it’s totally changed in [01:35:25] the last few years. Um, it has completely transformed. And now I just feel so confident [01:35:30] about going in and saying, here’s what I’m doing. You need me. But for a long time, that wasn’t [01:35:35] the case. Or in my perception was that. But perception is reality, as you always say.

Ashley King: I [01:35:40] think that you made a good point about it being a confidence thing, because what [01:35:45] Sophie is, is very authentic. But if if you’re being authentic [01:35:50] and you don’t actually like yourself, yeah, you know, authenticity is great, [01:35:55] but make sure you like yourself first.

Sophie Lovett: But we have. We collectively [01:36:00] we have been. Some of our biggest mistakes are that we have ground [01:36:05] ourselves to the bone. Right. And we have worked so hard. And then every now and then we just need to stop and say, what’s it [01:36:10] for? Okay. You live life once. We also need to go. Have a lovely time.

Ashley King: Yeah. Go [01:36:15] on.

Sophie Lovett: Holiday. Yeah. And I think both, every time we reset and do something that’s away from work, [01:36:20] we come back with just a better mentality, a way of going [01:36:25] about things. And, you know, it’s not just about being in this bubble.

Payman Langroudi: I also think it’s [01:36:30] important to have those times during the week, you know, times where you’re not full on. [01:36:35] Yeah. Times, time. I think it’s important to have time where you’re not expected [01:36:40] to do anything. Yeah.

Ashley King: Are you talking about. I [01:36:45] think of this in two ways. Like personal selfish time has nothing to do [01:36:50] with work or anyone else. It’s like pursuing.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying. It’s good for work. It’s good for.

Ashley King: You. So you’re talking. So the second [01:36:55] way I was going to say is, and this is what two women who are very successful at our [01:37:00] company have told me, they said you need at least 90 minutes a week, preferably [01:37:05] a day to strategize. Yeah. You’re not doing anything. So I’ve [01:37:10] tried to like bake that into my schedule.

Sophie Lovett: And what, like strategizing about your life outside of work? [01:37:15]

Ashley King: No. At work? Yeah. Like if you’re in meetings.

Payman Langroudi: When I was when I was an associate dentist, I [01:37:20] mean, as a practice principle, like it’s a different story, but an associate dentist, I went from [01:37:25] 5 to 4 days, and on the fifth day I thought I’d be [01:37:30] enlightened. Yeah. Yeah. There would be no enlightened if I was working five days a week.

Sophie Lovett: Is that what you called it? [01:37:35] Enlightened? Was it an enlightening moment for you on that fifth day? Sounds [01:37:40] quite biblical.

Payman Langroudi: But honestly, I wouldn’t have. I really wouldn’t have. Because on that [01:37:45] fifth day, I was reading self-development books. 26 year old kid. I was reading self-development books [01:37:50] and I was thinking about what to do and all of that. Um, and, but now [01:37:55] that I reckon 90 minutes a day is actually right. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: One of our core values [01:38:00] at Pearl is be an owner. Mhm. And yeah, that really feeds [01:38:05] into that. And I think they genuinely do not micromanage. They allow us to do [01:38:10] our thing, you know, provided that you’re doing something that is for the cause. And it’s allowed [01:38:15] us, as you said earlier, doing this, doing things that have really got Pearl’s name out there. I [01:38:20] mean.

Payman Langroudi: Now you’ve done a good job, you’ve done a good job.

Sophie Lovett: I think we’ve done an excellent job. Yeah. [01:38:25] I mean, who knew about Pearl wasn’t here before 2020, [01:38:30] 2019. And now, you know, if you haven’t got [01:38:35] it, you know about it. This is based on a few people in the UK team.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:38:40] think maybe now’s a good time to talk about your competitor.

Sophie Lovett: Go on then.

Payman Langroudi: Go [01:38:45] on.

Sophie Lovett: We don’t see them.

Ashley King: We have we have several competitors. Yeah we have a which one are you talking about. [01:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your USP? As as you know, in this in this category, in this space, compared to [01:38:55] competitors USP, I mean, um, let’s just go with Overjet for the sake of the argument.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:39:00] like this question. Right. So we have been put on this land on this UK territory. [01:39:05] Yeah. To learn and listen, the reason that we have partners in the Netherlands [01:39:10] looking for some in Australia, in the Nordics is because Pearl knows [01:39:15] that dentistry is different in every single different territory. What really sets us apart [01:39:20] is the product here is not the same as it is in the US. It’s different. We have [01:39:25] gathered information that’s allowed us to be super compliant [01:39:30] in the different territories. Some of them, some of our, our, um, competitor [01:39:35] products. They’re not patient facing because they’ve not got the compliance because they don’t know where to look. [01:39:40] So I think one of the things is the robustness of the data that’s trained the product. And [01:39:45] that’s not just we’ve just looked at people in the US, The product has been trained on [01:39:50] radiographs from all over the world. Okay, we’ve listened to what is needed. We’ve [01:39:55] got rid of what’s extraneous and what’s not required for the UK or other territories. [01:40:00] And we’re here. We have clinicians in the UK who work for Pearl who [01:40:05] understand UK dentistry. Again, our partners have clinicians in [01:40:10] the Netherlands and the Nordics who understand UK dentistry territory dentistry. That [01:40:15] is for me, the biggest differentiator. And first and foremost, [01:40:20] we’re actually within the products themselves. So we understand the workflow as well. We do not sit [01:40:25] in our rooms all day. We go out, we go into.

Payman Langroudi: The positioning of Pearl compared [01:40:30] to other competitors.

Ashley King: So I think like right now, Sophie gave a good picture as [01:40:35] to why we’re different in this moment. Fundamentally, [01:40:40] as an organisation. My big I’m [01:40:45] like an evangelist on culture. It’s really annoying and it sounds really cheesy, [01:40:50] but culture eats strategy for breakfast.

Sophie Lovett: Mhm.

Ashley King: The [01:40:55] people at Pearl and our mission and vision is what differentiates [01:41:00] us from our partner or our competitors. I also ascribe [01:41:05] to. I’m reading 0 to 1 right now by Peter Thiel. Say what you may about him. He’s [01:41:10] a genius.

Payman Langroudi: The book.

Ashley King: Yeah. Yeah. Good book. And his thing is, competition is for losers, right? We [01:41:15] created a product where really no one had had created a 2D detection. [01:41:20] We have a few competitors now, but where we’re moving and the movements [01:41:25] that we’re making, you can see in the US to add on workflow efficiency [01:41:30] products, etc.. And we plan on doing this globally as well, [01:41:35] catered to the specific markets. It goes back to what our ethos [01:41:40] is, which is allowing dentists to provide the best patient care and get back to dentistry. [01:41:45] Um, and I think because we have this fundamental [01:41:50] altruistic in a way, like we want to make dentistry, we’re elevating [01:41:55] the standard of dentistry, right? This is our why. And that that’s going to be out any [01:42:00] competitor where that’s not clear.

Payman Langroudi: So look, I mean, if you had $1 billion [01:42:05] exit before. Yeah. So he knows what he’s doing. Yeah. But what is he doing. [01:42:10] I mean, how is it that the culture is so like you’re on the other side of the world? How do they get their culture [01:42:15] over to you?

Ashley King: I think I mean, you said it, he he could have probably just retired [01:42:20] if he wanted to. He’s doing it for the love of the game. And he’s doing it because he wants to impact an industry.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:42:25] if you were advising me, I want to get culture through to my team.

Sophie Lovett: He came here, right?

Payman Langroudi: There’s only 40 of them. [01:42:30]

Sophie Lovett: He comes to see us. This is the thing. You know, he has a real presence.

Ashley King: Number one for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:42:35]

Sophie Lovett: He really is a presence. Yeah. It’s his baby. And you’ve got to remember, he is the son of a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:42:40] yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: And, uh, the his co-founder, Doctor Carl Stanley.

Ashley King: I think it’s really [01:42:45] basic. It’s like it goes back to the Simon Sinek start with why like all this, what’s your [01:42:50] why? But the way that you actually execute on it is [01:42:55] showing up. And you have to tell your team what it is and [01:43:00] keep saying it over and over. Repetition, get them bought in. Also, I’m like so much more excited to go to work [01:43:05] and say, I’m, I’m fundamentally changing dentistry than I’m glad I’m, I’m adding shareholder value. [01:43:10] Like no one wakes up in the morning wanting to do that.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Sophie Lovett: I think he, you know, I think he likes the people he works with as well. [01:43:15] You know, he wants to have this. He’s a cool guy. He’s an amazing product. He’s an absolute [01:43:20] genius, isn’t he? Yeah. But this weekend he was whatsapping me. You know, he it feels really [01:43:25] personal. And again, it feels like that we’re passing that on [01:43:30] to our users as well. We work with people we like to work with, but we also [01:43:35] provide value with this product. That’s excellent. I think you kind of have to have both. You [01:43:40] know, the reason that people buy something sometimes is like, oh yeah, it’s a great product. But actually [01:43:45] I really like who I’m working with. These guys know what they’re doing. We know what we’re doing, and [01:43:50] I think we really listen as well. And that’s what affair does. He still runs all the company calls [01:43:55] us. And you know, if he wants to chime in [01:44:00] and say something, he will. It’s really personal.

Ashley King: It’s authentic. It just goes. And [01:44:05] you know, you’re talking about the 3D reality and what we can see. But they say authenticity [01:44:10] has like the highest vibration and like wavelength. That’s what the spiritual world says. [01:44:15] And I think that that is what it’s authenticity. Yeah. We’re [01:44:20] all here. And you trust me, you’re not going to work at Pearl if you don’t believe in the mission and vision, because you’re going [01:44:25] to work really hard for something you don’t care about, right? We’re all here because we love the [01:44:30] mission we have. And like, we love the game. So. And that comes from [01:44:35] top down, right?

Payman Langroudi: It is cool.

Sophie Lovett: It’s really cool, isn’t it? I was doing some filming, uh, with [01:44:40] a group called Jen Smile. Stunning practices, by the way. Went to my first dental [01:44:45] practice with a swimming pool. Thank you.

Ashley King: Okay.

Sophie Lovett: It was gorgeous.

Ashley King: Can we go there this summer and just [01:44:50] get a tan? Absolutely.

Sophie Lovett: Jen, smile if you’re listening. Um, and, uh, so I was doing the filming [01:44:55] and this videographer came along and he said to me, it was really nice filming something [01:45:00] where I understood the product whilst I was filming it. So he had no idea about it beforehand. But [01:45:05] um, he said he got it really, really quickly. He said it [01:45:10] was such a cool product, but it also makes him filming a lot easier because [01:45:15] he knows where to sort of change things, cut things when when he knows what it is. He says he films [01:45:20] so many times where he just absolutely has no idea what the person does or the company does.

Ashley King: Wow. [01:45:25]

Sophie Lovett: Um, so we’ve just got so many different things. We’ve got so many [01:45:30] strings to this bow that just, I feel really privileged to be able to work here. It’s, I mean, there’s people [01:45:35] lining up to work here. It’s it’s tough. It’s so tough. Um, [01:45:40] but it’s so rewarding as well.

Payman Langroudi: I did a bit on another pod. Yeah. And I [01:45:45] enjoyed it. So I want to throw it in now. It’s unrelated to kind of work. It’s kind of a guilty pleasures [01:45:50] section. What’s your guilty pleasure when it comes to food? [01:45:55] Fast food.

Ashley King: Honest [01:46:00] burger.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Ashley King: I’m a big fan.

Payman Langroudi: Have you had have you had the black [01:46:05] Bear?

Ashley King: No.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. There’s one around the corner. Unbelievable.

Ashley King: Let’s go.

Sophie Lovett: What’s yours? [01:46:10] Is that.

Payman Langroudi: Kfc? Kfc?

Sophie Lovett: No, no, no, it’s not that.

Ashley King: That’s a [01:46:15] good choice.

Sophie Lovett: My mum used to make when she was at university. She’d like, does this whole, uh, woe [01:46:20] is me thing? And she went to Preston Polytechnic, which I think is now the University of Central Lancashire. [01:46:25] Um, but she used to make soup with KFC bones. [01:46:30]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Sophie Lovett: She was a poor student, apparently. And so no, not, necessarily. [01:46:35] I don’t know, whatever I have anything.

Payman Langroudi: Guilty pleasure. Music.

Ashley King: Oh. [01:46:40] Like 90s. Country. Country.

Sophie Lovett: 90s country.

Ashley King: Shania Twain. [01:46:45] Oh, yeah. I’m going out tonight. Looks like we made [01:46:50] it. Yeah.

Sophie Lovett: I could just listen to divorced.

Ashley King: After that song.

Sophie Lovett: I [01:46:55] could listen to The kinks and and Fleetwood Mac and Beatles all day on repeat. [01:47:00]

Ashley King: Oh, sunny day by the kinks.

Payman Langroudi: Before your time.

Sophie Lovett: Slightly before my time, yeah. And the kinks, [01:47:05] yeah. I love the kinks so much. They’re so good.

Ashley King: You put me on to them. The kinks. [01:47:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if you had nothing like. No, no no work, no expectation. You had half a day to yourself. What would [01:47:15] you do?

Sophie Lovett: I’d probably download Candy crush.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it?

Sophie Lovett: No. [01:47:20] I really have to avoid having games on my phone. I just think. [01:47:25]

Payman Langroudi: You get addicted.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, yeah, they are, but they are designed to do that. You know, I think a lot of people would probably [01:47:30] think that and not say it, but, I mean, I love a cryptic crossword. I’m such a loser. So [01:47:35] either give me a cryptic crossword or Candy crush. No, I don’t have Candy crush. But honestly, if I had. [01:47:40] If I had no work to do. I hate being bored. I hate being bored. But I would probably download [01:47:45] phone games. Oh.

Ashley King: That’s so funny.

Sophie Lovett: Sorry. Oh no, I wouldn’t read. I’d just waste.

Payman Langroudi: Time [01:47:50] stuck in the guilty pleasure bit. Oh. What about.

Ashley King: You? Half day off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ashley King: Oh, [01:47:55] man.

Payman Langroudi: Go berserk. Whole day off. Honestly, like no expectation.

Ashley King: I’m. [01:48:00] My ass is in a chair on the beach. And I’m getting a tan. I’m drinking pina [01:48:05] colada.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you’re in London.

Sophie Lovett: Oh, I thought you meant if we couldn’t do. If we had no, like, money.

Payman Langroudi: Or you’re [01:48:10] in.

Sophie Lovett: London.

Ashley King: Yeah, right. I know, I know, maybe maybe I’m [01:48:15] in Kent on the coast on a nice sunny day.

Sophie Lovett: We’re in. We’re in a small swimming pool in Dorchester. [01:48:20]

Ashley King: No, Saint Ives is great. I went there two years ago. It was beautiful. But yeah, [01:48:25] I think I would.

Sophie Lovett: Do one hand strawberry daiquiri, the other.

Ashley King: This is. That’s like Sophie’s thing. She’ll order [01:48:30] both at one time.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Ashley King: She looks like a total alcoholic.

Sophie Lovett: It’s called a Miami [01:48:35] Vice. Yeah. And I do like Miami Vice, but I like to have. I feel very even. [01:48:40] When am I going to Dental forum? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Sophie Lovett: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:45] don’t know.

Sophie Lovett: I tell you where we are going.

Payman Langroudi: Two days after the Ministry of Health.

Sophie Lovett: We’re going to the Ministry of Sound, aren’t we, Ashley?

Ashley King: We [01:48:50] are.

Sophie Lovett: We fought for this.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to go to Dental forum. Like you have to leave. You know you can’t leave on the Sunday [01:48:55] morning. You have to.

Sophie Lovett: Leave. I’m having I’m having a day recovery from. No, we might leave [01:49:00] slightly early. I don’t think we’re going to drink at the Minimalist Ministry, are we?

Ashley King: Definitely not.

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:49:05] questions. A fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? [01:49:10]

Ashley King: Okay, so I was thinking about this. It depends on what the vibe is like. [01:49:15] Are we. Is this like a fun dinner party? Am I trying to learn?

Payman Langroudi: If you want to have fun. [01:49:20] Have fun. Invite invite a fun guy. Okay.

Ashley King: I [01:49:25] my answer to you would be Mur Mira [01:49:30] murati. She is a. She was the CTO of OpenAI.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:49:35]

Ashley King: And now she runs thinking labs.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ashley King: She’s like one of the more prominent women [01:49:40] behind the AI movement that no one knows about it. Um, [01:49:45] so I would like to.

Payman Langroudi: Wish you from Romania.

Ashley King: She’s Albanian, I think. Albanian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’ve [01:49:50] seen I’ve seen the profile.

Ashley King: And I keep trying to find different like podcasts and like, she just has [01:49:55] very little presence. So I would like to sit in a room with her and ask her some [01:50:00] questions. She seems like a genius. Um, the second person. So this [01:50:05] is, by the way, this dinner is like trying to learn everything that I can. Dinner. [01:50:10] Not a fun dinner. So, Sophie, I think you’d be really bored if.

Sophie Lovett: Ashley’s, like, real. [01:50:15] So she sends me on Instagram. Have changed from being, like to, like, code. Yeah. [01:50:20] Claude hack.

Ashley King: This is my toxic productivity. Taking [01:50:25] a fun exercise and turning it into. Anyway, um, the next person who [01:50:30] I would like to learn. Paul Graham um, and then Nikola [01:50:35] Tesla.

Payman Langroudi: Nikola Tesla. Yeah. Yeah. Well done.

Ashley King: Um, I feel like there’s a lot that [01:50:40] he discovered, especially around free energy and all these [01:50:45] scientists that have been dying. There’s like 12 different scientists who are studying something adjacent to what he.

Payman Langroudi: Said, something [01:50:50] about propulsion.

Ashley King: And like anti-gravity. And I think all of it goes back to the free energy. [01:50:55] And so I’m very fascinated. That’s I have ADHD, so I get like very. Did you study in uni, public [01:51:00] health and biology? Oh, really? Yeah. So yep. That’s who it would be a [01:51:05] very interesting. Everyone would be way smarter than me. But that’s how you learn.

Sophie Lovett: Who [01:51:10] do I have? I’m not going to go Joe Lovitz route and say my partner. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:51:15] don’t allow I don’t allow that.

Sophie Lovett: In my partner.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t allow that answer. I never allow that.

Sophie Lovett: She’s Cuban though, [01:51:20] so, you know, so I would probably have, oh my gosh, I’m such a loser. But I just love Rory [01:51:25] Stewart So much Rory Love Rory Stewart so much. Do you know who I [01:51:30] would love to hear from? Whether it’s in her voice or her [01:51:35] fake voice is, I want to know what Elizabeth Holmes actually thinks. I [01:51:40] wouldn’t have that.

Ashley King: Sophie has like a weird she’s like, weirdly, she’s even wearing the black shirt [01:51:45] like like black turtleneck.

Sophie Lovett: I was talking today about like, how I can change my voice. Um, I [01:51:50] just think like, once you go lower, then you become more successful.

Ashley King: So if Sophie starts a [01:51:55] company after this, be concerned.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, if I, if I, if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re fascinated by the way she pulled the wool [01:52:00] over everyone’s eyes.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And if like, how much she’s deluding [01:52:05] herself about what she did and didn’t know. Right.

Ashley King: Like I feel like she was actually, I think she actually believed [01:52:10] that she could do it. Like, I don’t think she went into minutes.

Sophie Lovett: Five more minutes, right? Like 5 [01:52:15] million more.

Ashley King: She was just so pathological that she believed her own lies kind of thing.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. Um, [01:52:20] I need someone funny. Um, I mean, you can come to my dinner party if [01:52:25] you want. No, no. No, man. Um, Nick garrison from Pearl. [01:52:30] So funny.

Ashley King: Also super smart.

Sophie Lovett: So [01:52:35] smart.

Ashley King: Went to Harvard. Smart guy.

Sophie Lovett: Um, no, I don’t know.

Ashley King: I think that’s a good answer. We’ll leave it at [01:52:40] Nick.

Sophie Lovett: Let’s leave it with Nick.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sophie Lovett: Have you met Nick?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Sophie Lovett: He, like, he, um. [01:52:45] He. He’d come in in his overalls. You’d be like, oh, this room doesn’t need painting [01:52:50] today.

Ashley King: Our joke with Nick is, like, which tradesperson are you dressed as today? Yeah. [01:52:55]

Sophie Lovett: You, like, dislike.

Ashley King: Struggling artists.

Sophie Lovett: Disney.

Ashley King: Bouncers.

Sophie Lovett: And architects.

Ashley King: But [01:53:00] he actually is good style.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. And like, this guy will give you the brutal [01:53:05] truth as well. Like.

Payman Langroudi: Is he based in L.A., though?

Sophie Lovett: He’s based in LA. His ideas [01:53:10] and morals are so spot on as well. He’s he’s really trying to do a [01:53:15] lot now for the UK and um, in terms of how we can support [01:53:20] paediatric dental care as well. He’s he’s a really kind of moral smart guy.

Ashley King: He is [01:53:25] he he’s also someone who I think has really maybe [01:53:30] he’s more vocal about them, but he has contrarian beliefs compared to what I like. [01:53:35] I’ll say something that I think is a great idea. And then he’ll be like, no, you’re completely wrong. And let me [01:53:40] tell you why. And I’m like, damn, yeah, yeah, you’re kind of right, actually.

Sophie Lovett: And [01:53:45] also he’s.

Ashley King: Like, he.

Sophie Lovett: Just, he like, he kind of like [01:53:50] morally name drops as well. So he’ll just be like, oh yeah, Jen [01:53:55] and Jen and Brad or like Jen and.

Payman Langroudi: Get into ministry. Well.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:54:00] he’s a good guy. Ministry. Yeah. A lot of people want to come to ministry. Tell us [01:54:05] about ministry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, we’re gonna have so much fun.

Sophie Lovett: We’re gonna have so.

Payman Langroudi: Much, so much fun trying experimental [01:54:10] education in this new, new setting.

Sophie Lovett: Can I ask you a question?

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Sophie Lovett: If [01:54:15] you were principal again, would you have Pearl?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, of course, I [01:54:20] was never a principal there. I never owned a practice.

Sophie Lovett: Make Payman principal again. [01:54:25] But you say. You say, of course. So definitively. [01:54:30] What makes you say that?

Payman Langroudi: The trust question. What I said about trust. It’s [01:54:35] huge. I was good at knowing what dentistry was about. I was, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed [01:54:40] being a dentist. Um, definitely. It’s about trust. Yeah. Yeah. That’s [01:54:45] the key point. Um, it’s a bit like, you know, you know that thing EMS do that. Uh, gee, [01:54:50] what’s it? Guided biofilm therapy. Yeah. On paper it sounds ridiculous. [01:54:55] Yeah, it’s a 200 £0 scaler. That’s crazy. Whereas it’s, you know, it’s the [01:55:00] regular scale is like $500. This thing’s like 20 grand. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, [01:55:05] but every single patient goes through that thing and it makes a [01:55:10] cleaning much more comfortable. Yeah. And when you realise that the value [01:55:15] of it’s way more than 20,000.

Ashley King: Right.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, it’s one of those things.

Sophie Lovett: So seeing past [01:55:20] the face value of something and then looking into.

Payman Langroudi: Like a no brainer.

Sophie Lovett: It isn’t a.

Payman Langroudi: Total [01:55:25] no brainer. And I didn’t even realise it was that cheap. I thought it’d be much more.

Sophie Lovett: I know, I know, when.

Ashley King: I joined, I was like, [01:55:30] that’s all we charge. But now, you know, we get pushback on price all the time. So I don’t [01:55:35] know. It depends.

Sophie Lovett: People often say, and who you are is that, like you said, is that that’s not per [01:55:40] practice. Is that per chair?

Payman Langroudi: Per chair?

Sophie Lovett: Yeah. But people do have single chair practices who pay for it. I [01:55:45] mean, and I’ve said to everybody, cancel it. If if it’s not making [01:55:50] that return and we have no cancellations, do we. It’s um.

Ashley King: Very low churn.

Sophie Lovett: Yeah, [01:55:55] yeah. It’s an incredible product. We’re very lucky to be working here.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:56:00] wish my people were as enthusiastic about my stuff as.

Sophie Lovett: They love working.

Ashley King: Sometimes I feel like I’m in a cult. I’m like, am [01:56:05] I gonna realise like, ten years from now? You know, like hindsight is 2020, like.

Sophie Lovett: Send [01:56:10] us that special water, don’t they? That we have to drink?

Ashley King: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That medicine, that pill [01:56:15] we have to take every morning. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t turn up to that final meeting at Mafia’s [01:56:20] country home.

Ashley King: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sophie Lovett: He sent us.

Ashley King: He said something about kool aid. [01:56:25] I don’t know, it was weird.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming. I really [01:56:30] enjoyed.

Ashley King: It. Thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:56:35] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:56:40] Your hosts Payman [01:56:45] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki : Thanks for listening guys. If [01:56:50] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:56:55] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to [01:57:00] say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:57:05] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get [01:57:10] some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki : And don’t forget our six star [01:57:15] rating.

 

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Professor Tara Renton, OBE [00:01:00] onto the podcast. Does that mean I have to call you Dame now? No.

Tara Renton: Absolutely [00:01:05] not. It was the latest I know. I can’t believe it. [00:01:10] I’ve got goosebumps even talking about it. And have you been. No [00:01:15] no no no. You get you get a letter from um the Cabinet [00:01:20] Office like in big letters on the envelope I think. Oh my God, what have I done? This was like end of November [00:01:25] or what had my husband done more importantly. And um, and you open it [00:01:30] up and it basically is three sheets as a questionnaire. You fill in if you’re accepted or not, and a bit about your [00:01:35] E and D bits and pieces. And then, um, basically the letter says, um, [00:01:40] you have to keep this secret. You’re not allowed to tell anyone. Mhm. Um, and you’re [00:01:45] sort of in a state of disbelief. Um, and I managed to keep it [00:01:50] quiet for my husband for who’s of 39 years. Um, my sort of, my, [00:01:55] my, my biggest supporter, my silent weapon. I like to call him. Um, no, [00:02:00] no, actually for nearly two weeks. But the person I was most desperate [00:02:05] to tell was my 87 year old mum, I bet, and I was, and I just thought, I can’t, I can’t, [00:02:10] I’m so glad I didn’t. Um, and so I told my husband, we didn’t tell anyone. And then we were at a [00:02:15] New Year’s party with friends and one of them and found out and you get [00:02:20] this little trickle of people who obviously there’s some people obviously study it every year, like in depth. And I’ve got some [00:02:25] lovely emails from people and texts. Um, and then one of my girlfriends has seen it and [00:02:30] announced it at the dinner party. So most, not all, but most of my good friends know. [00:02:35] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve told your honour.

Tara Renton: I’ve told my mum. Yes. I think.

Payman Langroudi: She’s.

Tara Renton: I think [00:02:40] she’s inventing people to ring up and tell she’s absolutely buzzing. Bless her. So [00:02:45] she’s, she’s widowed. Um b 30, 32 years [00:02:50] this year. My father was a dentist and died at 62 on an exercise bike. So [00:02:55] um, as I mentioned, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Four generations, four generations. [00:03:00]

Tara Renton: Yeah. So, um, three guys, I make another Wolfson [00:03:05] candidate, a bit like Richard Porter and others. Um, but um, [00:03:10] yeah, my, my father was a GP. Um, he was, he did his national, he did [00:03:15] his guy’s dentistry and then he did, um, LDS and then he did national service. Um, [00:03:20] and that’s how he met my mother. He was out in Cyprus during the Suez crisis. And my mother’s father was a, in [00:03:25] the army. So they met and married um there and then my grandfather was a dentist, [00:03:30] a private dentist in Golders Green. So he did dentistry with um, with um, uh, [00:03:35] basically, um, what do you call it now? Just just. [00:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: Operated.

Tara Renton: Yes. Well yes, it was, there was a trundle his front room in his house at number [00:03:45] 11, North End Road. If anyone was, was his surgery, they had that distinct smell and we used [00:03:50] to go and visit them. Um he was just up the road from the um the the the palladium [00:03:55] golden screen palladium. So he had always his, his, uh, his waiting room, which was [00:04:00] doubled up as a dining room at the weekends, a big fish tank always people like Sid James [00:04:05] and Hattie Jakes, all the big names were often sitting [00:04:10] in the waiting room.

Payman Langroudi: And your great grandfather.

Tara Renton: My great grandfather’s a bit more of a leap because [00:04:15] he did. He qualified in surgery in 191887 at [00:04:20] Barts, and he, um, went into the Indian [00:04:25] Army Medical Corps, and he, I think he did 3 or 4 tours there. So he [00:04:30] was there for a long time and a bit of a naughty boy. So he, um, he, um, [00:04:35] my grandmother, my great grandmother left him, came back with my grandfather [00:04:40] and his brother, who’s brother actually ended up being the royal vet Proby Cautley. And [00:04:45] um, and, uh, he retired, came back to England. And [00:04:50] in those days before the dental Act, he could, he decided to do dentistry, and I always thought that was a bit of an [00:04:55] odd choice. But it turns out, thanks to when I did a bit of research for courtly Dental dynasty for [00:05:00] the British Historical Society. He was one of six officers, [00:05:05] medical officers that were invited back to do a special course at Guy’s Hospital and [00:05:10] doing dental extractions, because obviously we all know with the Napoleonic saying, can’t bite, can’t [00:05:15] fight, we know the repercussions in the army of dental unfitness. And in [00:05:20] that in that era, I mean, it was after the Boer War where more people, as many people, [00:05:25] died of toothache as they did of being shot. Yeah. Apparently, um, in [00:05:30] those days it was a real problem. That’s what made made, rendered servicemen just unfit. So they basically [00:05:35] thought, well, we’ll bring six surgeons, medical officers back, teach them how to do dental extractions. [00:05:40] And that was the beginning of the Army Dental Corps. That’s really interesting. So that obviously swayed [00:05:45] his choice. He thought he’d retire in Norfolk and become a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I heard a statistic that 3,040% [00:05:50] of the of the military, the front line were [00:05:55] debilitated by dental pain, you know, back then.

Tara Renton: I’m not surprised.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting.

Tara Renton: It is [00:06:00] fascinating. We live in today. I mean, we think 30% of, you know, the kids.

Payman Langroudi: Gas. [00:06:05]

Tara Renton: Gas. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the most common reason for kids under 12 to be [00:06:10] admitted to hospital is, is dental caries. It’s just, it’s, [00:06:15] it is shocking. And I, if you ask me about bugbears, that’s one of my bugbears. And [00:06:20] I know you’ve touched.

Payman Langroudi: On isn’t that like societal in the UK and that there [00:06:25] is a neglected bottom 10% in the UK or whatever percentage it is, but the. [00:06:30] And by neglected, I don’t necessarily only mean by the the the healthcare [00:06:35] system. It’s almost like the bottom 10% of everything in the UK has just been [00:06:40] let go. Everything. You know, you can have the best universities and you [00:06:45] can have the worst. You can have the best schools and the in the world and some of [00:06:50] the worst, the best restaurants in the world.

Tara Renton: And some of the words. I’ve never thought about it in percentages wise. [00:06:55] I mean, all these amazing initiatives, you know, Dental smile in Scotland [00:07:00] where they they get kids to read and brush their teeth with teddies and try and [00:07:05] encourage the parents to read with the kids and brush their teeth. I mean, there’s some fantastic incentives and you and [00:07:10] also increasingly now in nurseries, you know, I’ve got my first ever grandchild and [00:07:15] they’re talking about nurseries and we’re talking, they get breakfast and they get their teeth brushed.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [00:07:20] how does it feel to become a grandmother?

Tara Renton: Oh my God, I never saw it. So surreal. 5th of December last year. [00:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is it surreal?

Tara Renton: It’s amazing. It’s amazing. And I’m not the most maternal person. [00:07:30] I, um, I never thought I’d have kids. I honestly didn’t all be married. No, I never did. [00:07:35] Never did. No. So all happy circumstance. I’ve got three lovely kids, and our eldest [00:07:40] son Tim’s had little sac and we were babysitting him yesterday. It’s. You can’t describe [00:07:45] it. I don’t think you just can’t describe it. It’s incredibly special and also slightly [00:07:50] anxiety producing as well. You think this world and what we’re talking about and yeah, [00:07:55] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel the weight of becoming a dentist when [00:08:00] you were deciding this stuff? Because did you know about the three generations before you?

Tara Renton: I didn’t know, [00:08:05] no, I knew obviously my grandpa and obviously my father, but I didn’t know. So it’s a really good question. [00:08:10] Payman. Because actually, um, I thought perhaps in retrospect, [00:08:15] but actually at the time, I remember my dad being stressed all the time and [00:08:20] he loved his work. He loved his patients. He loved the NHS. It took me a while [00:08:25] to figure out at his funeral, actually, he was 17 when the NHS was invented. He was a massive [00:08:30] advocate of never doing private work, always doing NHS dentistry, and a lot of your [00:08:35] podcast people talk about the amount of admin work you do in general practice. My father was there till [00:08:40] midnight, 1:00 every night, every morning, doing all his old brown cards.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Tara Renton: Yeah. [00:08:45] I mean, they saw so many patients. He had a dual surgery, he’d numb one patient up. [00:08:50] And then, you know, I mean, the volume of.

Payman Langroudi: And was it the traditional setup where you lived above [00:08:55] the.

Tara Renton: No, no, no separate practice. No. We lived about a mile up the road.

Payman Langroudi: Where where was.

Tara Renton: I? [00:09:00] Uh, Taunton, Somerset.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, a lovely place.

Tara Renton: It’s still a still a big practice. Now Bupa practice number [00:09:05] one. Staplegrove road. Yard house. So, um, so I grew up with my dad, and I could never [00:09:10] figure out he loved his work so much. And he was very, very dedicated. I could never understand what [00:09:15] it was. And it was sort of penny dropped, really. He never relaxed. He only ever took like two weeks holiday in [00:09:20] the summer. Um, and it was essentially at least 1 or 2 of his [00:09:25] partners just stressed him out. He hated taking time away from the practice because he’d come back and [00:09:30] something had been done or. Mhm. Um, and that was his big stress or he wasn’t probably the most [00:09:35] business oriented man either, which is I’ve inherited that. So I understood [00:09:40] that my. Yeah, I, I felt no pressure at all because actually when I [00:09:45] told him I could only do maths, I was pretty dyslexic at school, never diagnosed. I failed [00:09:50] my English O-level. Um. I struggled reading probably up until I got to university. Still, I struggled [00:09:55] then um and uh, but could do maths and physics. I got into girls grammar school, [00:10:00] you know, worked incredibly hard. Um, loved the sciency stuff. And I remember [00:10:05] thinking, what can I do with sciences? And I could do medicine, possibly do veterinary. [00:10:10] Um, in those days, probably still the same at some girls schools. I was offered nursing [00:10:15] or teaching. I was my mum was very ambitious for me. She never had a career, so she wanted me [00:10:20] to be independent and I did too. Um, and I remember thinking I kept coming back [00:10:25] to dentistry because I love art, I love using my hands. I love making things. I love using my brain. [00:10:30] I just thought, actually, I can travel, I can earn good money. I can work part time. What, [00:10:35] what a better job is there, you know, and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Back then was the percentage of women, much less. [00:10:40]

Tara Renton: Uh, well, it was my year at guy’s when I went to guy’s at 1979, was [00:10:45] the first year they had 50% girl students, so the movement had started. [00:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: 79. The year we got to Britain.

Tara Renton: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Winter of discontent.

Tara Renton: Yes. [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: It was a tough time.

Tara Renton: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Tough. We were coming from Iran, which was like. It [00:11:00] felt like, I don’t know, whatever Dubai must feel like right now or something. Yeah. And we got here and it was dark [00:11:05] and it was raining and there was rubbish piled up because they hadn’t collected the rubbish. [00:11:10]

Tara Renton: All the strikes.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone was on strike.

Tara Renton: Yeah. And I thought such different times.

Payman Langroudi: And they [00:11:15] built it to us. You know, we were kids. Right. They built it to us as we’re going to England. It’s going to be great. I [00:11:20] was like, what happened here?

Tara Renton: Whereabouts in Iran did you come from?

Payman Langroudi: My, [00:11:25] we’re from the north. But. But we were living in Tehran. Right. Um, and we were very [00:11:30] lucky to get out in time. My dad had a few English people working for him. And when the UK embassy [00:11:35] told them, get out, we got out.

Tara Renton: So.

Payman Langroudi: So many people [00:11:40] didn’t manage to get out in time.

Tara Renton: You know, it’s a story that’s not told enough, I think. My husband was involved [00:11:45] with BP in Iran.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Tara Renton: And all through that transition, actually, it’s very interesting. [00:11:50] And I was very lucky. I got invited to lecture there about eight years ago and we went.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Tara Renton: It’s the most [00:11:55] beautiful country and lovely people. So sad. What’s happening? Yeah. [00:12:00] You must have friends and relatives. I’m so sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, and, you know, they even managed [00:12:05] to block Starlink now.

Tara Renton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s you can’t even, you know, my [00:12:10] uncle, we’ve only spoken to him once in the last three weeks, and [00:12:15] he was too scared to say anything. Um, he just kept on saying I’m okay, [00:12:20] I’m okay. But he wouldn’t talk about the situation because, you know, [00:12:25] this sort of 1984 thing that’s happening across all countries. Right. Yeah. [00:12:30] Um, it’s it’s a weird thing. I remember reading that book thinking it was, [00:12:35] it was a warning about communism or something. And I think it was right. That’s Sorry. And [00:12:40] thinking like, that’s, that’s, that’s a period in the past rather than that’s a period in the future. But [00:12:45] you feel like with data and AI and all of that, we [00:12:50] are merging with the machines. It’s one of those crazy things that there’s no getting in the way [00:12:55] of it now, because billions and billions are being thrown at it. Yeah. So those people aren’t going to stop? [00:13:00]

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any thoughts about my my, my daughter was saying she wants to [00:13:05] be a dentist.

Tara Renton: Well, you see, when I, when I came back from school, having had this really [00:13:10] awful session with a careers advisor, loosely termed, I remember saying to dad, [00:13:15] you know, I really wouldn’t mind doing dentistry. And he went absolutely over my dead body.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:13:20]

Tara Renton: And I said, but you love your work. He said, I love the work, but I don’t like the business. [00:13:25] And I find it very you know, I never said stressful. That was not one of [00:13:30] his vocabularies. But he just said, I don’t want you to do dentistry. So in the end, um, [00:13:35] I he was, he was both my parents were very sporty and played lots of hockey. We used to watch them [00:13:40] play hockey at the weekends and we. We all got shoved out to do sport as well, so we weren’t under their feet. And [00:13:45] um, he said he, he sort of capitulated and said, well, okay, okay. [00:13:50] And he said, do medicine or do, do veterinary. And, and I just said, well, I don’t really know [00:13:55] what they do. So in the end, he said, well, I’ll tell you what, um, I’ve asked my veterinary veteran [00:14:00] hockey team and I think there was a vet, there was a medic, there was a psychiatrist, there [00:14:05] was a solicitor, a barrister, an accountant. Um, what else was there. Oh [00:14:10] there was a manager of a, of a hardware store. Anyway, he said um if [00:14:15] you go and do work experience with all of those and come back and say you still want [00:14:20] to do dentistry, he wouldn’t have me in the in the surgery, he, I had to go and work with one of his partners.

Tara Renton: Uh, [00:14:25] then we’ll have a conversation. So I did, I dutifully did, I lasted probably [00:14:30] 15 minutes at the vets, the first little fluffy creature that I was going to be put down. That was it. I was out of there. [00:14:35] Um, I remember thinking with the GP and these are the days where you [00:14:40] couldn’t have someone sitting in there or you could with patient’s consent. But, and I remember thinking, God, [00:14:45] these, these blokes are stuck in a small room with mad people all day. And arguably that’s [00:14:50] what I’ve ended up doing. But, you know, and, and I had no concept of specialisation [00:14:55] or what possible things there were in the future. But I came away from that thinking, [00:15:00] I definitely don’t want to do medicine. I definitely don’t want to do veterinary. I definitely don’t [00:15:05] want to do accounting. Um, and, uh, and, and I had [00:15:10] a conversation with dad and he said, well, okay, um, then then [00:15:15] go for it. But he, you know, he did say caveat. You’re like me, young lady. You don’t have [00:15:20] any business acumen. So be very careful.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you listen as an aside, [00:15:25] let’s talk about that because I know it’s a tough business. It is a tough business. You’re breaking your [00:15:30] back. You’re in it rather than on it. At the same time though, the [00:15:35] economics of it work out that you don’t have to be Gordon Gekko to make [00:15:40] some money as a dentist. You’ve just got to be good to your patients. Good to your staff. Yeah. [00:15:45] Obviously, the basics of any like a corner shop has to pay its taxes and [00:15:50] and its rates and all that. But but you know what I mean. As a business, I wouldn’t call it a difficult [00:15:55] business. Much easier business than the one we’re in. Yeah. Yeah. This business overnight could [00:16:00] could, could be worth nothing. Yeah. You know, based on some global competitor. Yeah. [00:16:05] Whereas if you want to practice in Surrey and you’re nice to your people and nice to your. It’s [00:16:10] not a bad business.

Tara Renton: No, but still, essentially, I think you have to be comfortable with running [00:16:15] a business, comfortable putting your face out there, promoting yourself, asking [00:16:20] for money. None of those things were something that I.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t come.

Tara Renton: Naturally. No. And certainly [00:16:25] didn’t come naturally to my father.

Payman Langroudi: You go. You go from Taunton to the big city. [00:16:30]

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Firstly, how were you with that? I mean, that must have been super exciting. [00:16:35]

Tara Renton: I was super excited. I was I got in, I was a bit younger, so I was just [00:16:40] 17 and I was ready. My grandma and I’d been the odd visit to my grandpa [00:16:45] and he’d taken me to Hamleys and a couple of. He introduced me to ballet, which was one of my passions. Oh, nice. [00:16:50] Um, so I sort of, I definitely, definitely was ready to go to a big city. I got into [00:16:55] several places. I got into Bristol and Manchester. Um. Um, [00:17:00] but actually I thought London was for me for four and a half, five years.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:17:05] I didn’t manage to do the introduction properly yet. But you’re right now you’re a world leader in [00:17:10] orofacial pain. Um, tell me just just make me, make me feel better and [00:17:15] tell me that you weren’t always that sort of super ambitious, super focussed person? [00:17:20] No. So as a student, you would just.

Tara Renton: I worked hard, I think because of my [00:17:25] dyslexia. I, I, I, it’s quite interesting before [00:17:30] all these types of learning. All my O-levels. My bedroom wall was covered in [00:17:35] coloured bits of paper.

Payman Langroudi: So obviously your strategy for getting around.

Tara Renton: That’s how I could remember things [00:17:40] and how I could learn things. And I got, you know, I failed my I mentioned I failed my English O-level, but luckily it was a girls [00:17:45] grammar school. So we did all those basic five a year early. So I had another chance [00:17:50] to bite at the cherry I managed to pass it with. But you know, I was getting A’s and I was in top sets [00:17:55] for everything, but asked me to read out loud in an English class. I just wanted to die. [00:18:00] And I, you know, I had a tough time for some of the, some of the teachers as well who just think [00:18:05] thought I was just not trying just so I had this, um, ethos. And obviously, [00:18:10] as I said, my mum was quite ambitious for me, definitely to work very hard [00:18:15] and I did work hard. And I remember my first day at 17 at Guy’s Hospital in a biochemistry [00:18:20] lecture and I thought, I have arrived, I love this, I could [00:18:25] swear, love this. Um, I just knew I was in the right place. I [00:18:30] loved all the dissection. I loved that smell of formula. And I love the Gordon Museum. I love [00:18:35] all of that. That was just my you know, and I, I’m very, very [00:18:40] curious, you know, on all fronts.

Payman Langroudi: I’m horrified by dissection.

Tara Renton: I [00:18:45] just thought we were so honoured.

Payman Langroudi: Those people, of course.

Tara Renton: You know, I saw it from that perspective [00:18:50] and I just thought it was just so interesting. And you know, every which way did [00:18:55] different angles. I, I absolutely loved it. I was flying the first two years. Um, [00:19:00] did you party? Yes, yes. I had a lovely boyfriend at the time. [00:19:05] Very healthy social life, didn’t do much dancing, didn’t do much sport, had a [00:19:10] bike. So I did a bit of cycling, which I still do now. Very passionate about that. But um, no, no, I [00:19:15] had a really, really good time. Lots, lots of drinking.

Payman Langroudi: And what would you say then if we’re talking, [00:19:20] what was the sort of inflection point to go from that to? You’ve [00:19:25] put out 250 papers now.

Tara Renton: There wasn’t Payman.

Payman Langroudi: There was [00:19:30] no there must have been an inflection that you said, I want to be the best at something or I want to specialise. [00:19:35] I mean, not what tiny proportion.

Tara Renton: Specialise when I, when I walked out of, I got the [00:19:40] final year prize, I came second in the year, but that’s because I was loving [00:19:45] what I was doing and I worked hard. It wasn’t out of some focus of ambition. I [00:19:50] definitely, definitely knew I did.

Payman Langroudi: Not class yourself as an ambitious person.

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:19:55]

Tara Renton: No.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Tara Renton: No. It’s serendipity. Honestly, I’ve [00:20:00] I’ve landed in a corner of my life in an area that I absolutely love. [00:20:05] I really enjoy the people I work with. I love still seeing the patients, [00:20:10] um, part. Retiring and moving away from surgeries made me realise how much I missed that. [00:20:15] Mhm. I don’t miss the admin. I don’t miss all the hassle that goes with the NHS. [00:20:20] Now. It’s so difficult to do things. So difficult to change things. Impossible [00:20:25] to be innovative. But no, I would not say I was an [00:20:30] ambitious person. I would always do. I always do my best on everything. And as I say with [00:20:35] that background, I just was doing in an area that I love. I remember qualifying in, [00:20:40] in dentistry, thinking, I’m never, ever going to come back and have to do any academic work ever again. Seriously. [00:20:45]

Payman Langroudi: How funny.

Tara Renton: But then I knew I didn’t want to do peds because it was just [00:20:50] too stressful working on children and their family. I knew I didn’t orthodontics.

Payman Langroudi: Similar [00:20:55] issues.

Tara Renton: And perio weren’t for me. And I remember Richard [00:21:00] Haskell was one of the consultants, an oral medic consultant, absolutely Armenian. [00:21:05] And he was a genius. He was intellectually brilliant. I remember him doing a giant [00:21:10] diagnosing giant cell arteritis and doing like a giant temporal artery biopsy, [00:21:15] just like that, you know, just and I sort of thought that’s the sort of person I would [00:21:20] really like. I’d like to be that good. I never thought I would would be anything like it. But, um, those [00:21:25] are the people that really inspired me.

Payman Langroudi: And did you, you must have had crisp and.

Tara Renton: Crisp [00:21:30] and Scully I love but never taught me. I had Roy Roy Castle, Roy Coulson, who was [00:21:35] an inspirational, inspirational Frank Ashley that comes later. [00:21:40] He was the one that pushed me to do a PhD. In the end, he was really.

Payman Langroudi: Edwina.

Tara Renton: Kidd. Edwina Kidd I [00:21:45] saw recently at the Dental day.

Payman Langroudi: Was she when you were.

Tara Renton: She was restorative. She was like a young lecturer and restorative. [00:21:50] Really. Richard Palmer. Oh, he was lovely. He’s still a good friend. He was a great mentor, actually, [00:21:55] as a student. Really lovely man.

Payman Langroudi: Have you put implants in as well? Yeah.

Tara Renton: Did implants. [00:22:00] This is how old I am. I think I put some of the first ever branemark and cor [00:22:05] vent and imz implants in, in my max fac training in Melbourne. So we’re.

Payman Langroudi: Going.

Tara Renton: Um, [00:22:10] when’s that 1987, 88, 89.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did it take [00:22:15] between qualifying and doing max max training. Was it pretty.

Tara Renton: Quick. Not, not it [00:22:20] was not an intentional thing. Nothing’s been intentional. And when a lot of the kids come up to me and say, oh, can [00:22:25] I have some career advice? I’m saying you’re asking the wrong person about career advice. My, my, you know, I [00:22:30] sort of focus down. I wanted to do a combination of, of medicine and surgery. [00:22:35] And the only options then were max fac. So basically, like a lot of people, you [00:22:40] know, the rich and porters of the world and other people, you think, actually, I’d like to get my first part [00:22:45] fellowship and I’d like I didn’t got an show with my, um, uh, [00:22:50] with Don Gibb, the Max fac surgeon who was the most of them were singly qualified or [00:22:55] singly qualified. Don Gibb um, and I remember did my first essay [00:23:00] and I thought, no, I really quite like this, you know, the, the casualty. And I’ve got some great stories about [00:23:05] what happened in casual and bits and pieces. And I really, I guess I just like being stretched [00:23:10] and in an area that I love and it just the potential just keeps.

Payman Langroudi: Going, going.

Tara Renton: And, [00:23:15] um, and then with Don Gibb’s help, I suspect I got shortlisted [00:23:20] for a Esho at Torbay Hospital and I was a massively keen windsurfer at the time. [00:23:25] So I applied for all the jobs along the South coast and I got the job at Torbay [00:23:30] and I was there for a year as an SHO. Stayed on for another year as a SHO forward slash registrar. [00:23:35] Hugh Brock he used to rock up to work either on a horse or on a motorbike. [00:23:40] He was a real character, had handlebar moustaches and a handlebar moustache and alongside [00:23:45] bands. He was a genius of a man and sadly died of bowel cancer far too young. Another [00:23:50] inspiration in my life. And um, I loved that work that and again, [00:23:55] work hard, play hard. Great doctors, great, great people. A lot of people just stayed [00:24:00] in Torbay. I don’t blame them. Um, and that was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: The work.

Tara Renton: It was, it [00:24:05] was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. The whole thing.

Tara Renton: Yeah. 1 in 2 on call, I think I did. Oh I did nine 1 [00:24:10] in 8 years, 1 in 2 on call. You add it all up. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The old NHS. [00:24:15]

Tara Renton: The good old days. Yeah. 72 hours on. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But you loved [00:24:20] it. Oh, I loved it. So then you decide to do Max factor training?

Tara Renton: Well, no, because I had [00:24:25] with my family guys, I was offered to do free medicine. And I remember thinking, [00:24:30] going back to that girl who did the work experience with her dad’s veteran hockey team, I don’t [00:24:35] want to do medicine. What is it going to change me? You know, surely I can do what I want to do without having [00:24:40] to spend another five years of my life doing. I don’t want to do that. Um, what I hadn’t realised [00:24:45] is obviously that time expired senior registrars were just beginning to happen. So [00:24:50] there’s still a chance you could get through single qualified. But actually I just on [00:24:55] principle I was not going to do that. So I thought I did really just under three years [00:25:00] at Torbay Hospital. I thought right, I need some time out. I’m not sure if I want [00:25:05] to use my ovaries or not. I need time out just to think about what I want to do. So I got a job as a ski rep with Inghams, [00:25:10] and in the first two weeks I met my husband who helped to put my skis on the [00:25:15] back of the bus and he was working in Australia, so I quit that job, went back, got a job [00:25:20] in practice in Bournemouth with my windsurfer, Barry Nibbs, a real character, recently retired [00:25:25] and did eight months in practice whilst I waited for my migrant visa to come through. And we got [00:25:30] married and I followed my husband out to Australia. So we knew each other for two weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Whirlwind, [00:25:35] but especially for someone who decided not to. Wanting not to get married and have kids.

Tara Renton: I [00:25:40] was telling my brother the night before I met Tony, I’m never going to get married. I [00:25:45] have a certain type if I do, if the biological clocks. The clock [00:25:50] is ticking. I’ll just go to a Danish, Asperger’s or sperm [00:25:55] bank pick and, you know, like the Scandinavians [00:26:00] and all. Yeah, and the rest is history. The perfect man [00:26:05] turned up the next day. Yeah. I knew he was the one. I told my mum. I went back for Christmas. My [00:26:10] mum and I said to mum, I think I’ve met the man I’m going to marry. She said, oh, don’t be so stupid. [00:26:15] To finish the washing up and, uh, and yeah. And then two weeks, a week [00:26:20] later, he proposed, went off to Australia and I went out for a holiday to meet [00:26:25] him, but he was posted in Papua New Guinea for most of that time, which was disastrous. Um, but [00:26:30] yeah, got married in August. That was 39 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Were you not considering staying in Australia [00:26:35] after that stint?

Tara Renton: I never wanted to go to Australia. I went I followed Tony to Australia, but the the reason I’m telling [00:26:40] that story is in order to get my migrant visa, I had to get jobs in practice. So [00:26:45] I got jobs in practice. I registered with Victoria State Dental those days it wasn’t federal [00:26:50] Dental board, it was um state. Um, so I ticked all the boxes to try [00:26:55] and maximise getting my migrant visa. And that included getting offered jobs in, in practice. [00:27:00] So I was working three days in dental practice, two days a week as a volunteer at the National [00:27:05] Art Museum. That’s my passion is. And I just thought, actually that’s what I was going to do. I was going to [00:27:10] finally do art. You know, my my dad had Pooh poohed that right at the start. Um, and [00:27:15] I remember Carlo Roberts, who’s a South African, uh, practice, [00:27:20] uh, principal real character took me on two days a week in lovely Beaumaris in Melbourne. [00:27:25] And, um, I’d finished a day’s work and um, he [00:27:30] said to me, oh, Tara, I’m supposed to be giving this tutorial tomorrow night. I just can’t be bothered, [00:27:35] you know, more about you’ve done more oral surgery and wisdom teeth. Why don’t you give the tutorial [00:27:40] about wisdom teeth? So I thought it’s fair enough. He’s done lots of favours. I can do that.

Tara Renton: And [00:27:45] there was about it was for the Royal Australasian College of Dental Surgery. So the RA [00:27:50] CDs, which is the RCS equivalent here. And um, [00:27:55] there was about 12 young mainly blokes, um sort of students, not [00:28:00] post-grad. No, they’re postgrads. And um I gave my tutorial [00:28:05] and there was a bloke sitting at the back and then I thought very old bloke sitting at the back and [00:28:10] he didn’t introduce himself, he just disappeared off. And then two weeks later, I got this telephone call [00:28:15] at work saying, um, is that Tara Renton? I took all my married name because I used to be Tara [00:28:20] Courtly. And, um, and I said yes. And he said, oh, it’s a professor Peter Reid here. I run [00:28:25] the Oral medicine, Oral pathology and Oral maxillofacial program at Melbourne Hospital, [00:28:30] Melbourne University. Um, I listened to your I was very impressed [00:28:35] by your talk you gave the other day, and I’m sorry I didn’t introduce myself. I had to rush off. He said, I just wanted [00:28:40] to ask you, um, this was November, [00:28:45] late October, early November. He said, um, we have a very good, um, [00:28:50] maxfax maxillofacial program, which is four and a half to five years. [00:28:55] And we have two candidates a year and one of the candidates just dropped out and [00:29:00] it starts in January. So I remember thinking, oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. [00:29:05]

Tara Renton: And I thought, and I remember thinking, I don’t want to do max work. And what it was is [00:29:10] max FAC program very much like the American model. So basically integrates medical studies. You [00:29:15] don’t end up you don’t walk away with an M.D. but and it’s very orthognathic [00:29:20] lots of trauma, lots of dental alveolar, a smattering of head and neck, [00:29:25] bit of plastics. So it was very much the American model. And of course, I didn’t have to go and do five [00:29:30] years of medicine. And I thought, actually, I’m quite tempted by this. But then I didn’t [00:29:35] know how long we were going to be in Australia for because Tony was on a temporary visa with BP. So the reality was two, [00:29:40] two and a half years max. So I went back and had a chat with my long suffering husband [00:29:45] and just said, actually, I’m really quite tempted by this. He said, well, look, if you want to do it, do it. But [00:29:50] you know, I don’t think he realised how what hard work it was going to be. And it was hard work, but [00:29:55] incredible training. So that’s how I ended up with a max fac qualification. But then when [00:30:00] I came back to England five years later, pregnant with my firstborn unintentionally. [00:30:05] And, um, yeah, for those girls in the audience on the pill and, [00:30:10] um. And couldn’t get a job. Why so [00:30:15] xenophobic about foreign qualifications? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, isn’t it?

Tara Renton: Couldn’t [00:30:20] get a job. Um, so I managed to scrape in through the back door back at guy’s with Pat [00:30:25] O’Driscoll, and I did a locum SPR for him in max vac. I did that till [00:30:30] I dropped my first born, Tim. Um, and that’s really good that I did that in a way, because [00:30:35] it just got my foot back in the door and people remembering who I was. And, and so [00:30:40] when I had sort of six months just looking after Tim, I was hoping to get back to work part time, [00:30:45] no part time jobs in oral surgery didn’t exist. It was just max vac, [00:30:50] um, oral medicine. And you needed medicine to do that as well. So what I did is I put my [00:30:55] CV in the post to three main teaching hospitals in London and heard back from two [00:31:00] of them. And one of them was Mark McGurk. Professor Mark McGurk, who basically said, [00:31:05] look, I’m prepared to take a risk. And he did. I had an interview with him. To my chagrin, [00:31:10] I managed to get pregnant with my second son after being offered the job before starting it. Wow. Um. [00:31:15] And, uh, but anyway, he was, he was great. So three days a week, he was doing research [00:31:20] for the Royal College of Surgeons, sort of some research funding he had. And it was basically three, [00:31:25] it was three days. I did three, um, uh, 3GA [00:31:30] third molar lists and three clinics. And I did that for ten [00:31:35] years.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Tara Renton: Um.

Payman Langroudi: And were you at this point now thinking of research [00:31:40] as well?

Tara Renton: Well, because it was the research, because it was already research. Yeah, I was, [00:31:45] I was doing it and I used to bump into Frank Ashley. I mean, I then had two young [00:31:50] boys, um, and, uh, and I remember thinking, actually, this is great part [00:31:55] time ticks all the boxes. Loving the research side of it. Um, really [00:32:00] loving the operating sort of ticking all the boxes and sort of five, five years in and then just [00:32:05] just about to have my daughter. And I remember thinking, what’s the career prospects here? There was none. So [00:32:10] I was I had been made an associate specialist. Um, definitely [00:32:15] wasn’t going to do medicine. Um, because I didn’t think how that would change my practice and it wouldn’t [00:32:20] have done.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And, um, sort of got started thinking and I was thinking, [00:32:25] you know, what to do. And every time I was late, often late doing my, you know, finishing [00:32:30] off everything, I’d get in the lift at guy’s. And one of the downsides of that of the [00:32:35] guy’s hospital on the, you know, the Dental hospital on different floors is you rarely interact with [00:32:40] people, different specialities. But one of the upsides is that blooming lifts, because you’re waiting for them [00:32:45] for ages and you’re in them for ages. And I used to see Frank Ashley a lot, who was then Dean, and he used to say [00:32:50] to me, Tara, you should be doing a PhD. The research you’re doing is really good. And I said, look, [00:32:55] for God’s sake, I’ve got two young kids. I’ve got another one on the way. I can’t do a [00:33:00] PhD. And he said, yes, you can. So I spoke to Mark about it and he was very, [00:33:05] very supportive. Something that got me going as well as [00:33:10] that, they advertised for a bombs trainee and I didn’t get it and I was really upset about [00:33:15] that. Um, so I thought actually the only option is to have a career is to do a [00:33:20] PhD. And that would give me the options to follow through with academic oral [00:33:25] surgery. So that was the academic omfs as it was called. So that was my only option. And so [00:33:30] call me ambitious, I don’t know, I just I knew that what I was doing was not enough. [00:33:35] Um, it ticked a lot of boxes. Um, but [00:33:40] I wanted more, I wanted to do more. And I guess I did want [00:33:45] some recognition for it. Looking back, I guess I did that I wasn’t happy just to sit doing [00:33:50] all that work. Um, as an associate specialist.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to, I’d like to delve [00:33:55] into the juggle of being, you know, that person with three children, [00:34:00] you know, the, in that in that era as well. Um, [00:34:05] how you pulled that off. But I’m even more interested in the notion of the [00:34:10] recognition and the, you know, the driver [00:34:15] for doing things. I was, I was funny, I was talking to my wife about it that [00:34:20] let’s say we sell enlightened for a stupid amount of money, like $1 billion. It’s, [00:34:25] it’s not worth anything near that. I was saying to her then then we’d be going [00:34:30] walking, trying to get a coffee like we are right now. Yeah. Having done that. But [00:34:35] it’d still be me and you going to try and get this coffee and. But there’d [00:34:40] be something in the back of your head that you feel like you achieved something or some something like that. [00:34:45] Yeah. But what’s, where’s the deficit that [00:34:50] wants me to feel that feeling? And of course, there’s, there’s, you know, whether you want to call [00:34:55] it ambition or deficit or whether these are bad words, maybe, but but, you know, like recognition, [00:35:00] is there an aspect of, you know, you have that the weight of the generations before you. [00:35:05] So you want to show that you did something.

Tara Renton: That’s not Payman that’s not my driver.

Payman Langroudi: Or is it something else? Is it is [00:35:10] it is it someone who underestimated you as a, as a woman or whatever? As a as a [00:35:15] young girl? Like, where does this come from? I’m so interested in it.

Tara Renton: It’s it’s fascinating. [00:35:20] Um, such an interesting question. I think for me, I’d [00:35:25] look at it as a different perspective, as a curious person. I think it’s the what’s next? [00:35:30] So you’ve sold your company for zillions of. Zillions of pounds. You’re walking down the road to get [00:35:35] a coffee with your lovely wife. You’re going to be thinking, what shall I do now?

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe. [00:35:40]

Tara Renton: So for me, I’m flipping it. But that’s probably more where I was. [00:35:45] I had no aspirations to do more academia. I regard [00:35:50] myself as academia.

Payman Langroudi: You know how you said when you got an OBE, the first person you wanted to tell was your mum? Yeah, yeah. [00:35:55]

Tara Renton: That’s probably that’s probably it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something there. Yeah. Why? Why was the first person you [00:36:00] want to tell your mum to sort of tell her that all her hard work was worth something?

Tara Renton: Yeah. No, [00:36:05] she was very ambitious for me and I never realised quite so much. [00:36:10] And she had a she basically never had proper schooling. She was an army child. So they were post-war [00:36:15] Germany. Then they were Malta, then Cyprus. So. And she’s a very bright, [00:36:20] bright lady, one of five Cornish family um, did all sorts of jobs [00:36:25] when I was growing up. So I grew up with a working mother. She was a PE teacher, green shield stamp lady, a model, um, [00:36:30] second hand clothes shop, uh, rental, wedding rental business. So [00:36:35] that’s interesting. Always working. She’s always finding a channel.

Payman Langroudi: Your definition of normal, [00:36:40] seeing your mum was someone who was working really hard.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. My father, my father, we hardly [00:36:45] saw dad. Yeah. And the only time I could speak to my dad was coming downstairs at 1030 [00:36:50] at night, and he’d have his unofficial second dinner, which my mum was always. He’s always [00:36:55] on a diet and he’d have his big jar of Horlicks, and like a jam [00:37:00] and bread, and with all his dental notes, doing his dental admin. And that was the one time [00:37:05] I’d often. Often, if I’d come back from a party, you know, or come back from the pub with [00:37:10] friends, I’d sit down and chat with him. And that’s when I had my valuable time with dad.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:37:15] talk about the juggle.

Tara Renton: Yeah. The juggle. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about the juggle. Three kids, academic [00:37:20] career, PhD research. I mean, it’s a lot. What [00:37:25] gives in that situation? Did anything give. Do you feel like something gave.

Tara Renton: Oh, [00:37:30] definitely. Um, I don’t think you at the at the time you’re just in [00:37:35] the jungle. You’re fighting the fire. Yeah. Um, and you’re very aware of the compromises [00:37:40] that other people are making for you particularly. Um, I think there’s a, I don’t think [00:37:45] it’s just women, but you have this guilt, you know, I’m a rubbish mother. I’m a rubbish wife. Um, [00:37:50] I mean, I do talk about my husband. He really is my secret [00:37:55] weapon. He’s been so supportive. And I mean, I did a part time PhD five [00:38:00] years with three kids under five. I mean, I was it [00:38:05] was it was only like a couple of years later when Ella was like 3 or 4 and she was doing, you know, those stick pictures [00:38:10] they do at school. There was Mummy and Daddy, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Pictures. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: So it was Mummy and Daddy, two [00:38:15] brothers, Cat and Ella and I had this big square black box here. [00:38:20] My laptop.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, no.

Tara Renton: Yeah. So and also, you know, [00:38:25] it’s just and I was aware I was, I was aware, I mean, I did function, I got them to school, I got [00:38:30] them to all their clubs. I was working three days a week. I didn’t have the nanny when the two days a week I wasn’t working. So I [00:38:35] was trying to be a good mum. Um, and we did lots of stuff at the weekends. I’ve [00:38:40] never been ever. My husband doesn’t encourage me to talk about work at home, so that’s [00:38:45] sort of off limits, which I think is really healthy actually. Um, and [00:38:50] it’s only since the kids have left home and we’re both retired that we’ve actually realised [00:38:55] some of the similarities we have. I would say we were completely polar opposites. But you know, we both [00:39:00] love getting things started. He, you know, he’s a bit of a businessman. He likes getting things started. [00:39:05] Has some great ideas. So we have a lot more in common than we probably realised [00:39:10] during this fire fighting period. Um, but his career came first. You [00:39:15] know, when we were BP and and I was working part time, he was working quite hard. And then, [00:39:20] um, serendipity in a way. At 52, he’s the clever, smart one.

Tara Renton: He was [00:39:25] on the full pension. He could walk away from BP and he wanted to. And we had a long chat about that. And obviously, [00:39:30] you know, he had other opportunities. He could have travelled and done gone up the chain. And but [00:39:35] we made he made that conscious decision. And at that point, that’s when I got offered [00:39:40] the job at QM. Shmuel. After doing my PhD. So I was offered a senior senior lectureship [00:39:45] at Shmuel. Um, uh, and it was full time or [00:39:50] nothing. So that was just serendipity that those phases worked in. So [00:39:55] he could be, um, he still was working. He was making much harder. I joke, having left [00:40:00] BP, we always call it the protected workshop. A lot of these corporates, you know, it’s not so much now, [00:40:05] but you know, end salary schemes, secretaries super [00:40:10] well looked after. Yeah. So he started up quite a few bits and a few companies. [00:40:15] He’s been very successful. So he was working but he was at home a lot of the [00:40:20] time still boxing, boxing a little bit. Um, but I and that we sort of basically swapped, you [00:40:25] know, um, yeah, still working very much as a partnership, but that’s probably that [00:40:30] facilitated that.

Payman Langroudi: So then the skills it takes to become [00:40:35] a leading academic specialist, I can, I can [00:40:40] take, I can, I can imagine some of them, right? You’ve got to work hard. You’ve got to be imaginative. Yeah. You’ve [00:40:45] got to think outside.

Tara Renton: The.

Payman Langroudi: Box passionate. But what about like the politicking [00:40:50] and.

Tara Renton: The power.

Payman Langroudi: Games that go on.

Tara Renton: Not very good at that. I have I [00:40:55] have literally been. I was offered the job at [00:41:00] QM and had a difficult [00:41:05] time. That was another learning experience there. I have to say I was I was very badly bullied. There [00:41:10] was an article about it in the times, I think December 24th about [00:41:15] the culture change of the misogyny, and it was really bad. So I was the only [00:41:20] single qualified person in the group in the department. And, um, it [00:41:25] was tough. It was really tough. I lost about a third of my hair. I lost my eyebrows, my eyelashes. When I look back [00:41:30] at the pictures now, I just hadn’t realised the physical. I was commuting like an [00:41:35] hour and a half, two hours a day.

Payman Langroudi: Um, each way.

Tara Renton: Each way full time. [00:41:40] It was only full time job. Um, and that’s when thing cracks became [00:41:45] really happen. And it was the first time in my life I didn’t want to go to work. I’ve always [00:41:50] loved my work. Um, always jump out of bed in the morning [00:41:55] and, you know, skip to work. It’s the first time, and I really didn’t want to go. My husband was just saying, walk. Just walk. It’s [00:42:00] not worth it. And I thought about whistle blowing. Came very close to that. Actually spoke [00:42:05] to a few different people. Um, everyone knew. I mean, sounds very [00:42:10] much like things may not have changed that much, but who knows? Um, and, [00:42:15] you know, a lot of there have been a lot of catastrophes before me. Um, mine [00:42:20] was just another, you know, one along the road and I [00:42:25] basically, um, went to my boss at the time. Lovely, lovely boss [00:42:30] and just said, look, either I go part time and I don’t have to go to these consultant [00:42:35] meetings and be humiliated and screamed at on a regular basis for nothing, or [00:42:40] I walk. And that was a really hard thing for me to do because I, [00:42:45] you know, love my work. Um, she capitulated and that [00:42:50] made life much better. So I was offered that job in the first place, which, you know, was a learning [00:42:55] because I often was very dismissive of there were not many girls in that environment, obviously. But, [00:43:00] you know, girls were talking about fellow fellow women talking about being bullied, bullied at work. And I always [00:43:05] remember thinking, oh goodness, just stand up for yourself, you know? Boy, oh boy, was [00:43:10] the shoe on the other foot during that period. It was awful.

Payman Langroudi: And the kind [00:43:15] of woman who goes into oral surgery tends to be the get on with it type of person.

Tara Renton: Absolutely. [00:43:20] Well, as Stephen, Stephen was saying, is it something like 8% of [00:43:25] surgeons are psychopathic?

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Tara Renton: And I’ve always joked, actually, I think you have to [00:43:30] be a little bit psychopathic to cut into another human being. Yeah, maybe as a dentist as well, I don’t know. But [00:43:35] you have to have that bit of your personality.

Payman Langroudi: But who do you blame for this incident? I [00:43:40] mean, clearly the perpetrator, but it’s.

Tara Renton: The culture of the department is, you know, is ongoing [00:43:45] for years there being, no female fatalities before? Before [00:43:50] me who’d been, you know, come and gone.

Payman Langroudi: But the culture of the the the profession, [00:43:55] I mean, you know, it starts in dental school, isn’t it? You get you get some [00:44:00] some poor student who gets targeted by by some teacher.

Tara Renton: Well, [00:44:05] there’s bullying everywhere. There’s bullying in the schools. I mean, thank God, you know, all this social media stuff has got worse, [00:44:10] I think. I’m so grateful. A, I didn’t grow up with that. And B, my kids, my kids. [00:44:15] 33, 31, 28 we didn’t, I mean, mobile phones were just coming [00:44:20] through. My daughter was going to senior school, so we were so lucky to. And my kids are lucky to have not. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: But would you say the culture in academia is any better now?

Tara Renton: Uh, yeah. No, it is, it is, [00:44:30] it is. There’s still, you know, relatively fewer women, um, in [00:44:35] senior academia, particularly in, in medicine. Um, no, I think [00:44:40] it, I think it’s pretty good actually. I’m, I’ve not never been that. [00:44:45] So I was going to say that I then got. Basically offered to apply [00:44:50] for my job that, you know, I now have a Kings. And I know when a difficult time was happening [00:44:55] and I’d gone part time and I was thinking I was part time for about six months. I then got that message from Nan Wilson [00:45:00] saying, you know, um, the job I, the job I thought I was going to offer [00:45:05] you 18 months ago no longer exists, but actually there’s a chair first chair [00:45:10] in oral surgery. Would you, I want you to be at the interview. And I remember saying to him, I don’t have enough tickets [00:45:15] for that. So it’s not me aggressively looking for the next step up. I’ve, you [00:45:20] know, on three counts max fac training in Melbourne, I would argue actually even [00:45:25] the show at Torbay, I’ve been given those opportunities. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [00:45:30] it’s nicer. It’s nicer when someone doesn’t go for an opportunity. Like those are the people [00:45:35] you want to push forward sometimes.

Tara Renton: Well, there’s an element of that. I think there’s a lot less of that now. I think I think [00:45:40] in the dental environment, you know, our trainees, the kids that want to come and do oral surgery. [00:45:45] I mean, the ratio of applicants to successful training posts is [00:45:50] ridiculously high. And most of those kids are worthy of it for sure. [00:45:55] So it’s, um, it’s, it’s probably. Yes. [00:46:00] I’m not very good at playing the political games. I’m very aware of that. So [00:46:05] meetings, I would avoid those as much as possible. I always felt there were great waste of time. [00:46:10] I would go to meetings where I thought there might be a change at the end of it, something concrete. [00:46:15] But I often felt that actually it was a lot of meetings. For meetings sake. I was great [00:46:20] at getting in there doing. I loved, I ran the the undergraduate oral surgery program [00:46:25] for 11 years and made that really good. I loved it, great teachers, some still [00:46:30] around, which is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: You were head of department, right?

Tara Renton: Yeah, head of department. I was the first chair, first chair in [00:46:35] oral surgery appointed and obviously the first female. And there’s been lots since. Um. [00:46:40]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s let’s talk a little bit about orofacial pain. Yeah. And [00:46:45] about surgical safety. Mhm. Which [00:46:50] are your two main areas of interest? Um, firstly, [00:46:55] I, I’m really interested in this notion of it seems clear that [00:47:00] psychological stress, uh, sorry. It seems clear that that [00:47:05] chronic pain causes psychological stress, but it’s not so obvious. [00:47:10] But but it’s certainly true that psychological stress brings on pain.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a two way [00:47:15] road.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And when you’ve got that patient in front of you that several others have probably looked at [00:47:20] and, and baffled by or, or it’s a difficult patient. Do you start [00:47:25] by trying to unpick the which which came first, the chicken or the egg or does it not? [00:47:30]

Tara Renton: You have to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh you.

Tara Renton: Do. You have to. So, I mean, I was so blessed in my job at King’s. [00:47:35] Um, I wrote several business plans, which obviously a bit of a challenge for me and set up [00:47:40] this multidisciplinary clinic. So we have, um, uh, headache neurologists. [00:47:45] Peter Goadsby, who’s like king of migraine. He’s the guy that did a lot of the research [00:47:50] behind the antibodies for migraine. He’s super, super, super chat. So [00:47:55] some of his fellows would come and work with us. We have, um, a liaison psychiatrist, [00:48:00] which is really interesting. Never been taught anything about psychiatry. Wow. That was an eye opener. [00:48:05] Then we had a fantastic clinical psychologist, Sarah Barker, who now works privately. And [00:48:10] we have a big psychology team at the dental school in Kings, um, at [00:48:15] Denmark Hill. And we have a neurosurgeon and we had, uh, [00:48:20] we have visiting ENT and some other specialists and obviously restorative the [00:48:25] likes of Martin Keller, her and Serpell before she retired, we dragged them down and asked them questions. [00:48:30] Is this crown? You know, um, Endodontists you know, Rachel, she popped down [00:48:35] and help us out with some of the patients because I haven’t done dentistry for proper dentistry [00:48:40] since early 88. So I’ve done [00:48:45] lots and lots of wisdom teeth, lots of operating, lots of, you know, maybe some bits and pieces, but but [00:48:50] not not general dentistry as we know it. So going back to your question, that [00:48:55] team basically opened up my eyes. It was one of the best things, probably one of my biggest achievements work [00:49:00] wise, because you actually learn from we’re so siloed in our training. And [00:49:05] I think particularly dentistry, that’s one that is a big bugbear. We’re underappreciated and we’re very [00:49:10] siloed, and it’s partly our own fault a little bit. Um, the it [00:49:15] was fascinating. Payman I and even now I get a kick going, you know, [00:49:20] um, so obviously, um, there.

Payman Langroudi: Was some, some [00:49:25] examples of cases that came through. So yeah, so.

Tara Renton: One of my take home stories, which [00:49:30] I talk about sometimes in my lectures is never, ever judge a book by its cover. And I’ve always [00:49:35] thought that anyway, if you’re dealing with people, you never can. But this is a really good example. She [00:49:40] was Iranian. Interestingly, she was 23. She was drop dead [00:49:45] gorgeous. She was wearing all her matching Gucci boots, everything super.

Payman Langroudi: Super [00:49:50] uniform.

Tara Renton: Super, super. Yeah. Don’t don’t get me started. She had a gorgeous fiance [00:49:55] who would patiently sit in the waiting room. Now she’d had a wisdom tooth out. Very straightforward [00:50:00] and ended up with a lingual nerve injury, which was painful. And that’s what I did, my PhD. And that’s how I got into [00:50:05] pain. So and I remember, and I see a lot of these, I mean, I probably [00:50:10] advise like sometimes up to ten cases a week even, you know, of LA [00:50:15] or Endo or whatever. And I remember she, [00:50:20] um, she was broken and I just couldn’t figure out this young, [00:50:25] beautiful girl with seemingly everything. Why, why was her response [00:50:30] so brittle? Why was she so vulnerable? And, um, and I, [00:50:35] tried to try to work my magic. So, um, all through this multidisciplinary [00:50:40] care, we pre assess our patients. So we do a plethora of tests around looking at [00:50:45] anxiety, depression, PTSD is relevant in these cases. Sleep. Um, [00:50:50] so we look at OSA sleep disorders. Um, we look at prior abuse and neglect. [00:50:55] Um, and we look at some types of personality disorders that are associated with chronic [00:51:00] pain. Um, so, so this is something that I started doing and I actually, I [00:51:05] even did it in my PhD. I even did a chapter because I remember seeing [00:51:10] when I was doing my part time PhD, it was all around wisdom tooth surgery. Smartest move I ever did. If [00:51:15] you do a PhD, do it around something that you love doing and that you’re doing lots of at the time, [00:51:20] and you can actually make it happen without having to take five years or three [00:51:25] years out of your life and transplant somewhere else, then come back.

Tara Renton: So, so I was basically doing [00:51:30] patients after third molar surgery, morbidity and looking at nerve injuries. And what I couldn’t [00:51:35] understand is these patients had numbness and they had pain. And that would never that was never recognised before. [00:51:40] So we now notice neuropathic pain. We didn’t know then. That’s what it was. So I was thinking, [00:51:45] how can these people have numbness and pain at the same time? And that’s basically what nerve injury does. Sensory [00:51:50] nerve injury does. And if if you’re having breast surgery thoracotomy limb [00:51:55] amputation, there’s like a 30, 30 to 45% chance you will have that [00:52:00] pain for the rest of your life having those procedures done. It’s massive. Massive. Um, [00:52:05] any trauma, surgery, trauma, physical trauma, burns, radiation, chemotherapy [00:52:10] can all cause neuropathic pain as well as diabetes and M.S. and other things. So [00:52:15] I go this patient and it just, it didn’t compute for me because I’d seen quite a lot of patients and I [00:52:20] was, you know, done my PhD and felt fairly expert in the area. [00:52:25] And I kept thinking, why is she so brittle? And I, I, [00:52:30] you know, pre assess the patients. I knew she had some degree of anxiety, depression. I [00:52:35] knew she definitely had PTSD. I was about 70% of all patients with nerve injuries have PTSD, if they [00:52:40] particularly have the pain.

Tara Renton: And, um, and I sort of do [00:52:45] my very open lots of hugs, apologise, you know, on behalf of the profession. I’m really [00:52:50] sorry this has happened. You know, I know you’re warned about it. And it’s like, you know, [00:52:55] we all know when you walk across the road, you can get run over by a bus. No one sees this coming. And when [00:53:00] it happens, if you’re the wrong personality type, anxiety, depression and no sleep, it’s [00:53:05] going to hit you really, really hard and you may not actually get over it properly. So [00:53:10] I was thinking at that time and I said, look, I think you need to see my I saw her twice. And I said, I [00:53:15] think you really should see our clinical psychologists, you know, and [00:53:20] maybe, maybe the psychiatrist. Anyway, I got her back. [00:53:25] She wouldn’t she wouldn’t do it. So I got her back for the third time. And I, and I spent quite a long time, at least 45 [00:53:30] minutes with these patients. And this time I just said to her, look, I I’ve done my best [00:53:35] with you. And normally by this stage after one visit, most people understand become [00:53:40] a little bit more accepting, understand what the neuropathic pain is. It’s, it’s nerve injury that’s sending [00:53:45] signals to your brain like a text message. Emma Beecroft is great at this. And her lectures, [00:53:50] text messages is going to brain saying, pain’s still happening in my finger or in my tooth, but actually it’s [00:53:55] the brain that’s misrepresenting the signals going through.

Tara Renton: And, [00:54:00] um, she, she broke down again [00:54:05] and I just said to her, look, what can I do? And I just said, you know, what’s [00:54:10] happened? And she said, well, obviously it’s confidential, but [00:54:15] no one knows who she is. And um, she said, well, my parents brought [00:54:20] my sister and I to London when actually, you know, my parents brought [00:54:25] me to London when I was five years old When I was nine, [00:54:30] my parents had a difficult marriage. When I was nine, my mum had my baby [00:54:35] sister and a year after that, or 18 months after that, my [00:54:40] dad was killed on a bike on his bicycle outside Selfridges. So my mum was obviously [00:54:45] very dependent. I think she had one, quite some family members in [00:54:50] London and she looked to them to support this [00:54:55] patient, then got sexually abused by one of the uncles. And [00:55:00] obviously bigger stressor was to make sure that it didn’t happen to her younger sister. This [00:55:05] fell out. Her mother decided the best place for them to go back to Iran. So [00:55:10] they went back to Iran to be closer to other family members. Um, and [00:55:15] her, it didn’t go well. So she [00:55:20] obviously she had an English passport. She came back to England, basically cared for [00:55:25] her sister, brought her sister back so her sister could go to university in England and [00:55:30] she’d set up a very successful business. Um, put all this stuff behind [00:55:35] her, met her lovely fiance, goes the dentist, has a wisdom tooth taken [00:55:40] out.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Tara Renton: And has a nerve injury. And this is the proverbial straw on the camel’s [00:55:45] back. And she just could not pick herself up afterwards. And you think. [00:55:50] And I got I get goosebumps just recounting. I’ve got so many stories like this. You [00:55:55] know, she.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, look, interestingly, it took three visits to unlock that story. Well it’s. [00:56:00]

Tara Renton: Time. Yeah. It’s a time and trust.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And you talk about that a lot. You know, and, [00:56:05] you know, I talk about it a lot with wrong site surgery and bits and pieces. Because [00:56:10] as a specialist, you generally just see patients. And with increasing with the NHS demands on [00:56:15] time, you have such limited time to build trust with that patient. And actually trust really [00:56:20] underpins consent. Yeah. You know, effectively, you know, Henry Marsh who [00:56:25] Stephen referred to the neurosurgeon. He talks about he did a fantastic seminar [00:56:30] on consent at the Royal College of Surgeons a couple of years ago. And he basically says, you know, consent is [00:56:35] about trust. If my patient needs to understand what I’m doing when I’m taking a brain tumour out, they need to go and do 11 [00:56:40] years neurosurgery training and like another ten years post-grad. Then they’ll understand what I’m doing. [00:56:45] It’s trust. So that’s what I try and establish with my patients. I think [00:56:50] I am very empathic, I’m very interested in their stories. I have time for them to tell me [00:56:55] their stories. But for me, one of the key things is to have this pre-assessment. And for the life of me, [00:57:00] I don’t understand why. In general, medicine, dentistry and physio, beauticians, particularly [00:57:05] aesthetic aestheticians, I don’t know how I couldn’t work now [00:57:10] without having this. I’ve developed a web app with a partner with my PhD students, which basically [00:57:15] gives you all this summarised very simply. It’s a brilliant tool. Orofacial [00:57:20] pain facial pain.org. It’s geared for orofacial pain patients, [00:57:25] but it could definitely have a use just to see how difficult your patient’s going [00:57:30] to be or what a difficult time your patient’s having.

Tara Renton: And like you say, it’s a flip side [00:57:35] stress because of this or stress already before it. Yeah. So we know if you have high levels of [00:57:40] anxiety, depression, those same neurotransmitters and neural pathways, anxiety, depression, [00:57:45] stress, they’re the same as chronic pain pathways. So if you’ve got stuff going [00:57:50] on already in those pathways and you’ve got like this new nerve pain, the system just doesn’t [00:57:55] cope. And, and you’re much less resilient if you’ve had prior life abuse, neglect, [00:58:00] adverse events. And we know that your brain developed now is they [00:58:05] used to say women 2022 men 2224. They think it’s even later. [00:58:10] Now it’s like late 20s when your brain, your somatosensory system, your neuro system is [00:58:15] fully developed. If you have a critical life event during that development, something [00:58:20] happens. It makes you much more fundamentally at risk of chronic disease, [00:58:25] not just chronic pain, diabetes, cardiovascular. Yeah. So [00:58:30] those resilience, your resources are diminished significantly if you’re not sleeping, [00:58:35] if you’re anxiety anxious, you’re depressed, your resources diminished, you [00:58:40] can’t cope with this extra stuff that’s happening. So, so you cannot see a lot of patients, [00:58:45] I would argue, not just chronic pain patients without fundamentally understanding what’s going [00:58:50] on behind the patient, behind that very nice smiley face and a Gucci handbag when they turn [00:58:55] up to your clinic. Yeah. You need to understand what’s happening there, particularly, I think if you’re doing complex [00:59:00] elective work. So, you know, doing implant work, aesthetic work, I think you need to be able to understand [00:59:05] if that patient’s motivations are right.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. [00:59:10]

Tara Renton: And not falling into that trap, that horrible, horrible medical legal trap where [00:59:15] things go, go wrong of.

Payman Langroudi: The patients that you get sent, which are [00:59:20] the ones that are sort of most common and easy for you to clear [00:59:25] up and which are the opposite. Like.

Tara Renton: Oh, I love a toothache. Give [00:59:30] me a toothache.

Payman Langroudi: Toothache as well. You don’t the person doesn’t know. [00:59:35]

Tara Renton: I tell you, the toothache, the chronic toothache, pain. I’ve got some great examples.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so then you [00:59:40] work with the endodontist on that or.

Tara Renton: Well, no. Generally the tooth is. By the time we’ve seen one, the pain clinic [00:59:45] know it’s time for extraction. Yeah, yeah. I tell you, I love I really miss [00:59:50] my wisdom tooth list. It was just so nice. Pericoronitis. Take the tooth [00:59:55] out. Oh, I miss those days. Um. Yeah. No, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:00:00] you break them up into the kind of categories.

Tara Renton: Okay, so tooth related. What else? So you’ve got odontogenic [01:00:05] pain. Um, so there’s I cop International Classification of Orofacial Pain published in 2020. [01:00:10] Cephalalgia. I was part of an international team. We’re revisiting it at the moment. It’s [01:00:15] a faulty document. But the aim was there’s this massive conglomerate so that if you go to pain [01:00:20] meetings, which I’ve been to a lot in my life, you’ll have the rheumatologist and the headache neurologist arguing [01:00:25] who’s more important, who, which owns the most pain in the world. And, and [01:00:30] arguably, they both kind of like up their 40% ish. Um, [01:00:35] so, um, what was I going to say? We were talking about, uh, [01:00:40] I’ve lost my, lost my focus on that. What was the question?

Payman Langroudi: Different types of oh, [01:00:45] different types of pain.

Tara Renton: So I got basically, um, so the going back to headache neurologists, they, uh, [01:00:50] international Association of study of Pain iasp is massive. And basically they [01:00:55] have these big classification systems and the big classification system that touched on our region [01:01:00] was the International Headache Society and the International classification of headache [01:01:05] disorders HD. So they have that and they have like trigeminal neuralgia in there. They [01:01:10] have some neuropathic pain, uh, no acute pain. So so when [01:01:15] you’re doing this work, you’re trying to use the right diagnostics to make sure that the research is valid and robust. [01:01:20] But we didn’t really have a good classification system. We didn’t have one that is aligned to those. [01:01:25] So we’re talking the same language, and we didn’t have one that included acute pain. So a [01:01:30] chronic and acute. So we now have a system that’s acute and chronic. So there’s toothaches. [01:01:35] So odontogenic pain not just toothache. It’s um mucosa bone teeth but dental [01:01:40] alveolar salivary salivary gland. Yeah. And [01:01:45] then there’s muscle group which is mainly temporomandibular joint myogenous group. Then [01:01:50] there’s arthrogenic TMD joint pain. And then there is [01:01:55] the title. It’s basically neuropathic pain cranial nerve lesions of cranial [01:02:00] nerves leading to pain, which includes trigeminal neuralgia. Glossopharyngeal really [01:02:05] rare. But the most common thing is post-traumatic neuropathy, which is nerve injury, which is what I deal with. And that’s what I [01:02:10] did. My PhD in burning mouth, burning mouth, I think should be neuropathic burning. So we’ve [01:02:15] got neuropathic, then we’ve got, uh, neurovascular conditions mimicking headaches. So we [01:02:20] see loads and loads of migraine in the face that’s misdiagnosed and trigeminal [01:02:25] autonomic cephalalgias, which is cluster headaches. Loads and loads. And then the last one clinical [01:02:30] group is the um idiopathic which I hate, which includes at the moment [01:02:35] burning mouth, which I think should be neuropathic and actually persistent idiopathic facial pain and persistent [01:02:40] idiopathic or persistent dento alveolar pain. So intra-oral extra-oral [01:02:45] idiopathic persistent pain. Most of those have neuropathic features. So I’m hoping one day that [01:02:50] that number six will go. And then the seventh category is the axis two, which obviously is all important. [01:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Axis two.

Tara Renton: Which is psychological.

Payman Langroudi: Or psychological.

Tara Renton: So that’s all important because [01:03:00] you can’t. So so it’s a really nice classification.

Payman Langroudi: So out of those ones which are the hardest [01:03:05] to spot, which are the hardest to spot.

Tara Renton: The conditions, it’s the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Tara Renton: Just [01:03:10] like dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Tara Renton: You know, um, Richard was talking about doing? [01:03:15] I can’t remember. It was a simple procedure. If the patient’s really difficult. And I think [01:03:20] that’s something we underestimate, I think, well, I’m longer in the tooth than you are, but after a certain time [01:03:25] seeing patients, you get like an antennae, a feeling that something’s not quite [01:03:30] right here. Yeah. Um, you know, I think we should be much more out there thinking [01:03:35] about what personality? The hateful patient that again, Richard [01:03:40] alluded to and the Richard Groves paper in 1978. I talk about this. We’ve just published [01:03:45] a paper in um Dental update about complaints. Now, is it the patient or [01:03:50] is it the procedure or is it the. And a lot of it, you know, I, I’ve [01:03:55] had one complaint against me in my career that I know about that went to the GDC. This guy [01:04:00] complained about eight people at the dental school. So that’s the only complaint. And I remember [01:04:05] getting a letter, another long story anyway, from the GDC, didn’t even know the complaint had happened, saying the [01:04:10] complaints dismissed. And I just thought, oh my God, I didn’t know I had a complaint. And it was like [01:04:15] literally like, I think a year, the last year of retirement.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty good going in a 40 year [01:04:20] career in in pain.

Tara Renton: Incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Pain. It wasn’t 40 years in pain, but it was 20 [01:04:25] years. But high risk area.

Tara Renton: It is. It is. And they’re very tricky [01:04:30] patients. So so for me, it’s not the condition that’s difficult. That’s the that’s [01:04:35] the low hanging fruit. I mean they’re difficult to manage. But you’re not managing [01:04:40] the pain. You’re managing the patient with the pain. And I think if you’ve got a complex patient, [01:04:45] which some of them are, I mean, I’m seeing private patients now mainly online, um, [01:04:50] and see some to face to face. Um, but you go through the history and [01:04:55] it is, it’s heart sink. I mean, there’s so much stuff, but often what’s [01:05:00] really relevant is what’s happened before. So, you know, another, another group of patients, the [01:05:05] idiopathic facial pain, which I hate and I don’t believe in it. So definition of pain, you can feel pain without [01:05:10] physical injury. Yeah, we all know that. When my daughter started at Surbiton School, [01:05:15] two days in, she had her mobile phone. I was in the middle of a busy clinic. The phone goes. [01:05:20] I’ve got on the wrong train. I’m thinking, oh, [01:05:25] God. So I said, calm down, darling. You know, which train are you on? Well, I’ve just left Kingston, [01:05:30] but I don’t know where it’s going. It’s not going home. And I said, well, can you look for a nice lady and [01:05:35] just let me speak on your phone? So find nice lady talking to the nice lady on the phone.

Payman Langroudi: Was she like 12?

Tara Renton: She was 11.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:40]

Tara Renton: And, um, and the woman’s going. Oh, yes. No, no, your daughter’s here. Yeah. No, it is the wrong train. [01:05:45] Don’t worry. I’ll. I’ll get her out on the platform and get her going in the right direction. Oh oh. Oh, no. And [01:05:50] I said what’s happened? She said, oh, I think your daughter ran back to get her bag. And the doors have closed. [01:05:55] So my daughter’s now on the wrong train with no phone, no one to talk to. And I remember that [01:06:00] even now, I get that visceral pain. Yeah, it’s a really good example. There’s loads of different [01:06:05] examples, but that’s how I, you know, you don’t need to have physical damage to have pain. So we [01:06:10] see patients who have decades or sometimes decades, but many, many [01:06:15] years of chronic pain, difficult patients, complex history, [01:06:20] lots of anxiety, depression. There’s a bit of PTSD going on there. And [01:06:25] you get chatting to them. And sometimes they’ve just had a terrible, terrible [01:06:30] early year life. But sometimes it’s something like the [01:06:35] husband dies. There’s this massive tax bill that they didn’t know about. The dog’s [01:06:40] ill. Their best friend’s had some bad news. It’s just these little red flags, [01:06:45] these tipping factors that just tips them. They can’t cope anymore. And actually we’ve got [01:06:50] I keep meaning to write it out. We’ve had nine patients, um, one man, [01:06:55] mainly mainly ladies and basically their pain went with grief counselling. Um [01:07:00] so that makes sense. It makes total sense that if you’re managing the patient holistically. [01:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: You must be really good at by now. You must be really good at sort of explaining [01:07:10] to the patient that the stress is a big factor.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But but I remember [01:07:15] I used to do one session a week with a guy called Doctor Jagger in [01:07:20] Cardiff.

Tara Renton: Yes, I remember that.

Payman Langroudi: He used to have a pain clinic as well. It was, it was kind of a TMJ [01:07:25] clinic. But but you’d get burning mouth syndrome and trigeminal neuralgia thrown in there. [01:07:30] And I remember as a young dentist, just really struggling with trying to get over [01:07:35] to the patient that, look, the number one cause of this issue is stress. Whereas [01:07:40] sometimes when you say to a patient, look, it could be that there’s something psychologically or stress going on, [01:07:45] a lot of times they think you’re dismissing them. Yeah. And just trying to get through that, that it’s a real [01:07:50] thing. Don’t worry about it.

Tara Renton: No, it’s really it’s really true. But I think there’s much more acceptance around [01:07:55] that now. I mean, when I’m talking to my patients, I’m talking about anxiety. [01:08:00] Obviously I’ve got fantastic measures. Now I can actually broach that subject. People are more open to that. [01:08:05] I always remember thinking when we started doing the psych screenings, we started off like hard copy. I [01:08:10] remember thinking, none of the patients are going to do this, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: To be fair.

Payman Langroudi: I’m talking a [01:08:15] 25 year old story today. The taboos are much, much easier.

Tara Renton: It’s very, very rare. [01:08:20] We get patients saying, actually, I don’t want to do your questionnaire because there’s too many personal questions there. [01:08:25] It’s very rare we have that. It’s more around technical issues that they can’t do the online thing.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:08:30] they.

Tara Renton: Can’t use a keyboard or something. But that’s not too often. But it’s just so important. [01:08:35] And I love it because I have my summary and I get my consultation [01:08:40] documents together. That’s how I’ve worked for the last 20 years, and I feel like I know what’s coming [01:08:45] through the door. I’m prepared for what’s coming through the door rather than spending like the first 15, [01:08:50] 20 minutes of the consultation, which would be much more difficult because you’re not ready for the [01:08:55] patient. You know, we had a little summary on the computer screen, anxiety up there, depression [01:09:00] up there. Ptsd, no sleep, you know. Um, it’s [01:09:05] just makes total sense to me that we should be doing that with all our patients. Yes. [01:09:10] And I’d love to see a day when we and, you know, arguably it’d be very interesting to look at personality disorders [01:09:15] because those are the people who are really difficult, difficult to manage. They have, you [01:09:20] know, with pain. They have to accept that they have to take tablets, they have to do other things like improve their [01:09:25] nutrition and their microbiome. Talk a lot around my patients around, you know, cheap [01:09:30] pain. You know, you don’t like taking tablets. Well, there’s evidence base for these vitamins [01:09:35] that will reduce migraine. There’s evidence base that actually, if you eat this kind of diet, you’re going to have [01:09:40] loads more dopamine going around serotonin, serotonin, you know, all those natural pain [01:09:45] endorphins you can make with a good diet.

Payman Langroudi: What do you mean? Which diet gives me more serotonin [01:09:50] and dopamine? So tell me immediately.

Tara Renton: Well, I can give you.

Payman Langroudi: I’m a bit of an addict of those two [01:09:55] substances.

Tara Renton: All of my websites, all of my orofacial pain.org.uk. And [01:10:00] then there’s a specific one nerve injury. But and actually I’ve got a I do an annual I call them my [01:10:05] two virtual children, not my three real children. And I do an annual update. The annual update is happening in February. [01:10:10] So there’s a lot more stuff around nutrition going in there as well. And again, it was really refreshing hearing Richard talk about [01:10:15] that as well. And actually a couple of other much more. A microbiome is an amazing thing. And I’ve [01:10:20] had time now I’m retired. I cycle every morning. Um, I take much more care about [01:10:25] my tummy.

Payman Langroudi: Is it like kefir and this sort of stuff? Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: There’s a, it’s a mix of stuff. It’s [01:10:30] different colour, you know, the good old Zoe kind of stuff, you know, nuts, seeds.

Payman Langroudi: Several [01:10:35] different different.

Tara Renton: Vegetables.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Tara Renton: I haven’t, I haven’t touched red meat for years. [01:10:40] Have you got. I will do if someone serves it at a dinner party I’ll eat it. But yeah. Um cutting [01:10:45] down the alcohol, which is probably for me the toughest thing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I find coffee difficult [01:10:50] to like. Coffee. Giant amount of coffee. Do you?

Tara Renton: I used to, I went off [01:10:55] at all three pregnancies and red wine and I’ve never gone back there. So yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it. But coffee can be [01:11:00] really good for you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I heard.

Tara Renton: There’s some headaches that respond to coffee. You drink coffee last thing at night, [01:11:05] and it cures your headaches. So there’s some really interesting things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to the darker part of [01:11:10] the pod. Actually, before we move on. Yeah. It’s such a privilege as a [01:11:15] dentist to be able to alleviate pain. Mhm. Yeah. And we’ve all done it. Your [01:11:20] patient comes in toothache, you extirpate it, and you kind of find [01:11:25] a few canals. And, you know, when that patient gets home and things are warmed up, you’ve [01:11:30] done a you’ve done a great job. They’re your sort of detective work that you have to do that [01:11:35] when you finally get to a solution for someone like that [01:11:40] Iranian lady you were talking about, there must be a massive sense of of achievement. [01:11:45]

Tara Renton: Absolutely. Love it. Payman. And the problem with chronic pain is you don’t necessarily get the patient [01:11:50] out of pain.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Tara Renton: But you’ve dealt with all these holistic [01:11:55] issues. You’ve given them a clear diagnosis, A clear prognosis [01:12:00] and some possibilities, some tools that they can do. I love it. I do feel like [01:12:05] Inspector Clouseau on the clinic.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds like it. Yeah.

Tara Renton: Because you’re literally at different pebbles, [01:12:10] different things.

Payman Langroudi: Lifting up different bits.

Tara Renton: So interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s now get to the darker [01:12:15] part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. And now with your medico legal work, [01:12:20] you see loads and loads of mistakes. So I’d like to get into some of that. How, how, how do people [01:12:25] avoid the common things. But I also like to get into any clinical [01:12:30] areas that stand out. Your own clinical areas that stand out to you.

Tara Renton: Um, I’ve got [01:12:35] one not so funny for the patient and one. I mean, I, so [01:12:40] I remember my father taking out the wrong premolar on his best friend, his orthodontist [01:12:45] friend’s daughter. So for me, that was I remember him coming inside. Yeah. Wrong side. [01:12:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Tara Renton: Goodness. And and I remember he was like that pale grey colour before you have a coronary. [01:12:55] He was like that for like three days. So that’s been always with me. But I only reappeared when [01:13:00] I was involved in the lock slips and the wrong site surgery. And I’ve done it. I’ve taken out [01:13:05] four wisdom teeth on a 60 year old or 17 year old boy. I should have had just two wisdom teeth taken out. [01:13:10] Didn’t realise. Gah! Just no. Just just routine. [01:13:15] I’d written it up wrong. You know, I always wrote my own treatment plan. Never, never delegated anyone else on [01:13:20] the board in front of me with the X-ray checked. And I managed to do that. And I remember as [01:13:25] soon as I.

Payman Langroudi: Realised.

Tara Renton: Realised I just I and I went, obviously [01:13:30] the patient was taken to recovery and I went straight at his mother’s in the waiting room and I just said to look, I’ve [01:13:35] made, I’ve made a mistake. I’ve taken out all his four wisdom teeth.

Payman Langroudi: The uppers instead of [01:13:40] two.

Tara Renton: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I said, look, I’m really, really sorry. Um, [01:13:45] this is, you know, wrong. Um, I’ll give you my details. And and she [01:13:50] said, oh, thank God for that. She said, because we were telling the orthodontist said the dentist said that [01:13:55] he only needed two out, but actually we wanted to have four out because he’s going travelling next year. So I was [01:14:00] so lucky. But it’s very poignant because it stays with you. It’s just so [01:14:05] easily done. I mean, when I was others, I’ve written lots of papers around wrong site surgery [01:14:10] and and, and patient safety. What we do as dentists [01:14:15] is really, really difficult. And I know you’ve touched on this on quite a few podcasts. So [01:14:20] we as dentists, as you say, we’re individual practitioners. Yes. We have our dental nurse with us. We’re in [01:14:25] a room by ourselves most of the day, or none of our patients want to come and see us. They all know they’re [01:14:30] going to get pain, even a little, tiny bit. They’re going to get pain. Most patients actually [01:14:35] just even looking at the appointment card, if you take an MRI of their brain, [01:14:40] the amygdala, the limbic system is lighting up basically that, [01:14:45] you know, that non-physical pain is already happening in their brain when they get into the [01:14:50] car park. It’s almost actually happening before you get a needle or anything near them, and then [01:14:55] when they see the dental chair or they hear their drill and in the next door surgery, or they [01:15:00] see a syringe. Yeah, they’ve already got the pain. You can literally just [01:15:05] do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And they’ll have the pain. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, and you know, we, we [01:15:10] work in that environment. We are immune to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We’re normalised.

Tara Renton: And I have said, [01:15:15] you know, if I ever became dean of a dental school, which I haven’t and I won’t, I always said if I would change [01:15:20] dental training, I would say you sit down with your patient in a medical conversation, a medical consultation [01:15:25] model. You sit eye, eye to eye level in two chairs next to each other and have a conversation. [01:15:30] You do the consultation like that. You you do your consent [01:15:35] like that. You only put them in the dental chair to examine them, take them out again to carry on [01:15:40] the conversation about what you found, and then you put them back in the dental chair to do your treatment. And I honestly [01:15:45] think if we did that, patients would retain more, they’d hear more and actually probably be better [01:15:50] in a room without the dental chair because that’s a massive, massive trigger for many, many patients. [01:15:55] Can we give painless blocks, painless injections? I don’t [01:16:00] think so. I mean, with all the stuff I’ve written about LA around minimising nerve injuries, but more [01:16:05] about optimising pain management patients, you don’t need to give blocks very often. You use [01:16:10] infiltration dentistry. All Implantologists been doing that for years and you’re [01:16:15] smart. You know, you can give them topical local anaesthetic or a bit of ice. It’s probably [01:16:20] the most effective. Give them the articaine buccal articaine get it so that you’re blanching [01:16:25] the lingual mucosa without going, you know, lingually.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t push so hard on the plunger. [01:16:30] Right.

Tara Renton: Just gentle. I mean, and also, you know, it’s, [01:16:35] it’s just we’re immune. You know, we there’s no way that [01:16:40] you can do dentistry with an ID block painlessly. You can’t. The pulpal anaesthesia rates are [01:16:45] so poor. If that injection was invented now and said, oh, dentists, we’re going to be doing this from it, we’d laugh them [01:16:50] out of the room. It’s just it just doesn’t work well enough.

Payman Langroudi: Do you have any tips and tricks on.

Tara Renton: I [01:16:55] have some good tips and tricks.

Payman Langroudi: Well, don’t do them.

Tara Renton: No, no, no, it’s not that. [01:17:00] So I’m, I’m not a great advocate of um of of the direct [01:17:05] Halstead. I rather do indirect. So you’re not going through the lingual nerve. In fact what I started doing in [01:17:10] my later years, if I was going to give a block is do a gow-gates. Go higher. They’re just as effective as a Halstead, [01:17:15] but they. They completely miss the lingual nerve. Okay. And the ID nerve. [01:17:20] So you just go higher up and you just follow along the the the top of the wisdom teeth [01:17:25] into the little fossa retromolar fossa and just go direct. You don’t have to be near the nerve. [01:17:30] We know that you can be a centimetre and a half away from the nerve. The local anaesthetic we use is so good, so [01:17:35] strong. It works. But you do need to wait ten minutes for a block to work for the optimum [01:17:40] pulpal anaesthesia, which is another reason why it’s so short.

Payman Langroudi: Ten minutes, ten minutes.

Tara Renton: And if you’re a [01:17:45] patient or a red haired patient or an anxious patient, which most of them are, could [01:17:50] take up to 20 minutes to get optimal pulpal anaesthesia from an IDB, which is why [01:17:55] they’re so rubbish.

Payman Langroudi: Why, oh why do they?

Tara Renton: Because there’s lots of theories. It [01:18:00] might be an enzyme thing. It might be laxity. Laxity of the connective tissue, a bit like in pregnancy. They [01:18:05] don’t really know. But they’ve got a really high resistance to local anaesthetic. Um [01:18:10] poor things with all the other stuff that they have to deal with.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so in general you’re saying go a little bit higher [01:18:15] than you think.

Tara Renton: Well, the first thing was don’t give an inferior dental block [01:18:20] unless you have.

Payman Langroudi: To, unless you have to.

Tara Renton: So I would do infiltration dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. [01:18:25] Articaine.

Tara Renton: Articaine. Buccally. Yeah. Um, the, the anterior mandible is [01:18:30] very porous, so it works brilliantly here. Don’t stick it into the mental nerve. Don’t go anywhere near nerves. [01:18:35] Mhm. Um but the, but the lingually, the mandible is very porous. So what [01:18:40] you can do is you can give your I used to say get a cartridge of articaine and do [01:18:45] in front and back of the tooth, go slightly higher up. So you blanch the lingual mucosa. [01:18:50] And then if you need to go in, if there’s still pulpal sensitive, you can give a lidocaine [01:18:55] and not know only if you’re doing extractions. Never give in to ligamental unless just [01:19:00] infiltration. Okay, but often you don’t need to do that. If you’ve got a polycytic tooth or [01:19:05] a big zit somewhere like a big acne spot or any inflammation in the trigeminal system, [01:19:10] your sodium channels will be absolutely, um, sensitised. So that’s [01:19:15] another reason why your your local anaesthetics not working. So give them ibuprofen, solubility, ibuprofen, [01:19:20] as long as they can take it about 20 minutes before the giving the local anaesthetic and that will optimise [01:19:25] your local anaesthesia because it’s basically reducing the sodium channel hyperactivity. Old [01:19:30] stuff. Ken Hargreaves, 1980s champion, Endodontist [01:19:35] pharmacist, dean of Houston dental school wow. Mega guy. It’s all out there. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting.

Tara Renton: So a lot of this stuff infiltration and you’ll have much more comfort [01:19:45] for the patient. There’s much nicer injection to have. Much more effective pulpal anaesthesia. [01:19:50] And I just don’t know why we’re not doing more and more of that. And if you probably the patients you have to give [01:19:55] a block for would be a complex prosthodontics. If you’re doing long procedures, [01:20:00] you can top it up like you would in an IDB in the old days. Um and possibly [01:20:05] endo. Um, and the endodontic is actually probably the best [01:20:10] trained of all of us in managing, uh, managing postoperative [01:20:15] pain. I just operative pain.

Payman Langroudi: In general, pain in general.

Tara Renton: It’s a big part of their training [01:20:20] program. I mean, going back to that, you know, again, so many [01:20:25] things, but in vets get something like 40 hours of pain [01:20:30] training. Really medics for [01:20:35] six.

Payman Langroudi: That’s crazy. Dentists none.

Tara Renton: Half [01:20:40] an hour if you’re lucky.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: It’s bad.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And it was and I hadn’t realised, you know, [01:20:45] Richard was talking about what a stressor it is for a lot of people doing DBS.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Tara Renton: Well it [01:20:50] shouldn’t be.

Payman Langroudi: I took, I took five years off when we started the company and [01:20:55] then my wife got pregnant. And then I went back part time after that. And [01:21:00] after five years of not giving an ID block, I had massive stress.

Tara Renton: I’m not surprised. [01:21:05]

Payman Langroudi: My first. But actually something had happened. I’d forgotten something that they [01:21:10] started. I was started becoming not very good at ID blocks after [01:21:15] five years off. And I.

Tara Renton: Think you’re a bit more just a bit more critical.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. But I just [01:21:20] remember going back to my wife and saying, let’s talk about this. How do you do it? Because [01:21:25] I don’t remember having a problem before.

Tara Renton: It’s waiting. It’s waiting. That’s all it is. [01:21:30] It’s waiting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So in private industry, it’s very easy to wait because I take that time to talk [01:21:35] to the patient and that’s the best thing you can do anyway. Talk to the patient in NHS. They do the other thing sometimes. [01:21:40] I don’t know if it’s still a thing. Wait in the waiting room? Yes. That used to work very well.

Tara Renton: My dad [01:21:45] did these two surgeries next.

Payman Langroudi: To each.

Tara Renton: Other.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that used to work very well, didn’t it? I guess that’s why [01:21:50] those patients were properly anaesthetised. Um. I can’t see being able to do [01:21:55] that in private anymore, though. No, no.

Tara Renton: No. I think it’s probably not. Not possible.

Payman Langroudi: And how [01:22:00] do you how do you manage the wrong site surgery? By putting protocols [01:22:05] in where two people are checking at a time.

Tara Renton: You know, you you can’t take the wrong brain out and you can’t take [01:22:10] the heart out. Wrong heart out. Because obviously you’ve got one of those kidneys. It’s possible, you know, [01:22:15] and limbs it’s possible and lungs it’s possible. But um, dentistry, we’ve got [01:22:20] four quadrants and we’ve got two dentitions. So honestly, it’s like tiger country. Yeah. [01:22:25] And um, as my, you know, my dear old dad used to say, shit happens. And I say that a lot [01:22:30] at work and I to my patients and to, you know, um, play with [01:22:35] fire. You’re going to get burnt sometimes. It doesn’t matter how many protocol wise.

Payman Langroudi: What do you suggest? [01:22:40] What did when you did the work and decided.

Tara Renton: Oh, I see, well, the loxp stuff. Yeah. [01:22:45] No, it’s um it’s out there. It’s a big committee. The Royal College of Surgeons and we [01:22:50] did specialist locks for each domain. So a lot of it’s around checklists and [01:22:55] just, you know, making sure that your radiograph is, is labelled correct, labelled correctly. [01:23:00] Obviously it’s on screen now so it’s less likely to happen.

Payman Langroudi: That got me. I draw the wrong side.

Tara Renton: That’s [01:23:05] you see that happens a lot. And I think one of the key things is if you’re doing the surgery, the onus is [01:23:10] to you the medical legal. Even if the anaesthetist messes up, it’s still the surgeon’s problem. So you [01:23:15] just have to plan and be clear. But also just make [01:23:20] sure, put your plan, you know, up somewhere on a piece of paper and [01:23:25] you check with your nurse and a nurse. A dental nurse twice has stopped me doing wrong site surgery [01:23:30] really. And that’s, you know, talking about having your nurses. I always say, if you’ve got a really [01:23:35] good nurse, they’re good enough to be a dentist. And they should be. I think they should [01:23:40] be able to do it, to be honest. But anyway, I just think having that team approach [01:23:45] and people being able to speak up, that’s such a good sign that, you know, my couple [01:23:50] of times Dental have said actually, um, Tara, your and you know, I’m never Tara, [01:23:55] I’m think your forceps are on the seven or the six.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness [01:24:00] me.

Tara Renton: It’s fantastic. Why wouldn’t you want that in your team?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. [01:24:05] Of course. So for instance, in black box thinking that yeah, they found one of the big [01:24:10] crashes, famous ones, uh, Canary Islands. There was [01:24:15] a massive plane crash where one plane went straight into another one on the runway. And just [01:24:20] before it was it was a very famous captain. Yeah. Just before [01:24:25] he said, he said, okay, full power ahead. Yeah. And the first officer who was a junior [01:24:30] said something like, sir, are you sure there’s a plane? And then there was this muffle [01:24:35] of him saying that. Yeah. And then the plane went forward and smashed. And then they made [01:24:40] a protocol with pilots of this sort of like.

Tara Renton: Listen.

Payman Langroudi: Whistle blowing kind of [01:24:45] that if you as a junior, if you see a senior doing something there [01:24:50] and then speak up and, and, and, and, you know, he was too scared to really say it. [01:24:55]

Tara Renton: Yeah. Well, the protocol, you know, our student protocol now is you check and recheck. So you [01:25:00] make sure you’ve got the right, you know, you double check your notes, you double check you’ve got the right patient. You double check you’ve [01:25:05] written the right treatment plan up there. Um, you, um, when you’re giving the local anaesthetic you check with [01:25:10] your nurse. I’m doing the right side. Yeah. Yeah. And when with your nurse again you say right, I’m taking out the lower right [01:25:15] six and I’m putting my forceps on the lower right. Six and it’s all with your, [01:25:20] with your, with your dental nurse or your or your. So it’s a, it’s a team [01:25:25] team work. They have to have that confidence to be able to speak up.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about teaching [01:25:30] in Kings and you’ve seen generations of, of dentists go through. Um, [01:25:35] can you tell? Pretty early on who are going to be the stars? Um.

Tara Renton: Um. [01:25:40]

Payman Langroudi: What about what about the, the teaching itself. I mean, we’re [01:25:45] about to do this event. You should come, by the way, we’re about to do an event at Ministry [01:25:50] of Sound. Oh, are you a Dental conference at Ministry of Sound?

Tara Renton: Fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:25:55] but where that comes from? Yes. Is that particularly post-COVID? [01:26:00] I feel like Dental education, if we’re going to get up out of our homes [01:26:05] and out of our jobs and come somewhere. Yes. That that there needs to be something about going [01:26:10] somewhere that makes that makes sense to that, you know, it’s got to be either super fun or [01:26:15] you’ve got to meet people who you’re going to network with later on, and it’s going to work. Something [01:26:20] different has to happen. I mean, you’re standing on a stage presenting a lecture. You might as well be on the on [01:26:25] the other end of a computer in California presenting a lecture, you know. Um, but what [01:26:30] are your reflections on the course, the Dental course itself. Um, and. [01:26:35]

Tara Renton: It’s, it’s a frustration because, um, like a lot of people, I, and [01:26:40] again. I’ve heard you talk about this on previous podcasts. Um, I [01:26:45] don’t think they, the Dental students come out ready cooked. I mean, there’s more and more, more and more [01:26:50] emphasis on I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re just psychologically, they’re [01:26:55] an interesting generation. Obviously, I’ve got three kids, so they’re very anxious about things, very [01:27:00] self-critical, very fearful of doing anything wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Especially this this generation, anxious, [01:27:05] high achievers, the ones because dentistry is much harder to get into now.

Tara Renton: Well, and that arguably [01:27:10] I would just say that. Are we selecting the right people? I think we need empathic listeners. [01:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: Empathic carpenters.

Tara Renton: Yes. Well, not just that, but but no, you [01:27:20] it’s the empathy is the most important thing. And I think about being patient. I mean, my [01:27:25] whole career has been patient centred and very, very patient centred. And I just think actually [01:27:30] a better qualification for people coming into healthcare would be that they volunteer or they [01:27:35] do a year, not national service, but a year working and helping in a hospital or an old people’s [01:27:40] home or kids nursery.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the requirements.

Tara Renton: I would love that to [01:27:45] happen. I’ve been saying that for years. I think that would tell us more and also would tell the kids more whether [01:27:50] they actually made for that particular, you know, and you need a variety [01:27:55] of people. You need a variety of people to make up a team. But dentistry, as in general, dental practice [01:28:00] is very much you and the dental nurse. Yeah. Um, whereas in other domains [01:28:05] of working in a dental team, multidisciplinary teams, you need [01:28:10] different personalities. You need someone who’s going to make sure the T’s are crossed and the i’s are dotted.

Payman Langroudi: But if [01:28:15] you, if you were queen of the world and you could redesign the dental course, which bits would [01:28:20] you take out to to include these bits that you want to put in?

Tara Renton: I think I’d take [01:28:25] out quite a lot and put a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so, so [01:28:30] the traditional, like, would you take out things like biochemistry? I would, I.

Tara Renton: Would love I, [01:28:35] I think at the element of that definitely. Yeah, I would love to see dentists. You know, one of [01:28:40] my ambitions, which never came to fruition was I’m very jealous of Richard’s new development, I have [01:28:45] to say, is.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Tara Renton: To have like a 1012 surgery high street [01:28:50] unit that teaches students and postgrads. [01:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Tara Renton: Um, and, and one day it’s pros, one day it’s oral surgery, one day [01:29:00] you can still do this.

Payman Langroudi: You could still do this.

Tara Renton: I’d love, I’d love to do I think oral surgery is so [01:29:05] stressful and so difficult for the students. That whole concept of. And it’s a horrible [01:29:10] thing to do what we do to our patients. I started saying, as dentists, you know, we’re, as [01:29:15] you say, dealing with patients who don’t want to see us. They know they’re going to get pain. [01:29:20] The trigeminal nerve basically has a one way, one ticket transfer [01:29:25] to the limbic system. So if you’re in threat of having pain to this area [01:29:30] or having painted this area. Your brain is like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Tara Renton: On fire.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And [01:29:35] that’s what we do in dentistry. We work in the try the most difficult nerve in the whole body. That’s [01:29:40] basically amplifying all the stress and everything going on in our head related [01:29:45] to pain. And we just we do it on awake patients. I mean, [01:29:50] did that happen because of barber surgeons? Barber surgeons took out teeth. Dentists [01:29:55] invented GA and let them blooming surgeons run away with the GA. So all these fancy surgeons just [01:30:00] operate on the sleep people. I know there’s it’s changing, thank goodness. And that’s partly due to chronic pain [01:30:05] actually, because we know that a lot of the post-surgical chronic pain, neuropathic [01:30:10] pain is actually probably to do with central sensitisation. So if you get very, [01:30:15] very intense pain transmission to the brain, particularly the para ductal grace just [01:30:20] sits below the amygdala, that area sensitised. And that probably has a memory of pain. So if [01:30:25] you block it with local anaesthetic like we do in dentistry doesn’t happen. So if you go and have [01:30:30] breast surgery, limb surgery, still big enough anatomical areas, you [01:30:35] can’t block it off with local. But the anaesthetist will give strategic local anaesthetic.

Payman Langroudi: For that reason.

Tara Renton: To [01:30:40] minimise chronic pain. Isn’t that fantastic? They’re taking a lesson out of dentist. We do that for years. You [01:30:45] know, I would argue that a lot of stuff we do, patients should be sedated. I don’t think it’s [01:30:50] fair. A lot of the stuff we do that they’re awake. But going back to the, to to rearranging dentistry, [01:30:55] I think a lot of it should be like my grandpa did more of an apprenticeship. Still think you [01:31:00] need the academic knowledge, not to the extent of forays [01:31:05] or four nines or whatever it is these days. I don’t think you’re selecting the right people. I [01:31:10] did actually.

Payman Langroudi: You must have been on the selection board for some time now. Um, you [01:31:15] know, getting.

Tara Renton: Specialists never, never for undergraduates. Oh, really? Yeah. Too busy teaching [01:31:20] and doing the research. I mean, the whole system is ridiculous at university because the [01:31:25] kudos and the money comes with the research. Still not with the teachings, the teachings. Always trying [01:31:30] to get the patients in, trying to deal with the NHS managers who say we can’t be arsed having the [01:31:35] dental students in. They don’t do enough work. We’re basically giving away our our salary, our [01:31:40] income. They don’t want. So you’re fighting all these levels that are running. The undergraduate program was [01:31:45] so stressful because you want more patients in. You want your students doing stuff. [01:31:50] These wonderful people who come in and give up their salary in clinical practice to come and teach our salt [01:31:55] of the earth. Not appreciated, not dealt with very well. And [01:32:00] it’s such a frustration. So I would love it that you have a nice practice [01:32:05] where people want to be there, the teachers want to be there, and then they give the kids a good [01:32:10] time, good experience, and I’d love to see that. And I don’t think that happens an awful lot. I’m [01:32:15] quite cynical or critical about the haptic stuff, and I don’t think that prepares [01:32:20] people for dealing with patients. And as nearly every one of your [01:32:25] podcasts that I’ve listened to, it’s all about the patient. It’s all about the patient relationship. If things are going to go well, [01:32:30] you know, I shouldn’t say this. You know, if your patient loves you, you can do shit dentistry. [01:32:35] But that’s not what we’re advocating.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but it’s important. Your patient can love you and you can do brilliant.

Tara Renton: And [01:32:40] you have a better day if you have your patients, your dental nurse liking you and your patients liking you. Yeah, you’re going to have a [01:32:45] much better day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Tara Renton: So and that’s down to, you know, um.

Payman Langroudi: So, [01:32:50] so, so changing the course, you take out lots of the basic science I’m taking.

Tara Renton: I would.

Payman Langroudi: Do, you’d [01:32:55] put in a lot more on relationships.

Tara Renton: I’d put in a lot more face to face, hands on. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Work as well.

Tara Renton: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Communication.

Tara Renton: Absolutely. And psychology. [01:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: And I’d even say business, you know, like.

Tara Renton: Business should.

Payman Langroudi: Be the basics of business.

Tara Renton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I think it should [01:33:10] be in school, let alone dental school. Yeah. They should, they should talk. I was going through my daughter. [01:33:15] She’s she’s only at GCSE level. Yeah. Yeah. But you forget you know, GCSE maths [01:33:20] still quite hard. Like I couldn’t, I couldn’t remember how to do this stuff. I was going, yeah, [01:33:25] you know, differentiation or something. I remember the word.

Tara Renton: I gave up trying to help my kids with [01:33:30] their homework a long time ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I referred her to ChatGPT at me. But [01:33:35] but then but then this is what I’m saying, that going to quite complex mathematical sort of thing, but [01:33:40] no idea how to apply for a mortgage, like a life, like a very important.

Tara Renton: Life bank account.

Payman Langroudi: Open a bank [01:33:45] account, money in and money out, these sort of simple things, simple.

Tara Renton: Things. The education system [01:33:50] is not fit for purpose either.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, Elon’s got an idea. I’m calling him like he’s my best [01:33:55] friend. But Elon Musk got an idea of, you know, in schools you have sets.

Tara Renton: Yes. [01:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: But he’s talking about sets that you can move within years. So, for instance, [01:34:05] this nine year old could be in 14 year old physics class. But being [01:34:10] seven year old maths, not maths.

Tara Renton: He’d probably be I would have been kindergarten English [01:34:15] and like probably if I was lucky O-level maths. But yeah, no, I [01:34:20] get that.

Payman Langroudi: So you wrote all these papers. How did you get over your English and dyslexia [01:34:25] and all that to write papers?

Tara Renton: My husband still jokes about champion, not [01:34:30] shampoo paper, what I wrote. It’s my first ever publication. Oh [01:34:35] my God, it was hard. Looking at a blank piece of paper is the most difficult thing. [01:34:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Um, and I, but I’m a massive reader now as well. I love reading, [01:34:45] which I, you know, I never did before, but I love reading.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it, what’s your favourite book?

Tara Renton: Uh, [01:34:50] my favourite book would be Patrick Suskind perfume.

Payman Langroudi: Which is a.

Tara Renton: Novel. [01:34:55] It’s a novel. Yeah. I do like quite dark, dark things. [01:35:00] So, um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what about your favourite Dental book?

Tara Renton: Favourite [01:35:05] Dental book? Well, I love Dental update. Oh, yeah. Not just because I’m on the editorial [01:35:10] board. Because actually, because I don’t do routine dentistry. I love reading those articles and I love [01:35:15] the editorial board meeting. They’re the best people. They’re the best and.is there as well. Such [01:35:20] talented people.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Tara Renton: Just Leaders o. But also leaders in their fields are so [01:35:25] inspiring. So I love that because it’s just nice for me to understand, you know, it’s [01:35:30] so technical and so, so different than what I was taught.

Payman Langroudi: You on social media.

Tara Renton: Yes, I am. [01:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram and all that.

Tara Renton: I am, yeah, but not as you know me. So Instagram is [01:35:40] all stuff that I make. Oh, really creative stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Okay. And what do you [01:35:45] make?

Tara Renton: Oh. All sorts. I’ll make anything. I love a project. Always like a project. [01:35:50] So the last thing I made was my two mad Scottish friends who had us around for [01:35:55] New Year’s Eve dinner party. They loved dressing up and, um, [01:36:00] they have these mad selection of, of Christmas hats like turkey upside down [01:36:05] and all sorts of things. And I thought I had some fabric left over because I make these [01:36:10] really ornate Christmas stockings for gifts for people when I’m in the mood. And I had this fabric left over and [01:36:15] I thought, actually, I could make them some really good crowns. So I made these fantastic crowns for them, for Lindsay and Nigel, [01:36:20] and they were great. But anything I can make jewellery. I made my husband’s [01:36:25] wedding ring. I made cufflinks, make jewellery, make clothes, [01:36:30] pay my, pay my way through dental school, making evening dresses and party dresses for [01:36:35] the 80s.

Payman Langroudi: If Etsy was around back then, you’d be a millionaire.

Tara Renton: I would have been killed. I would have not done dentistry. I would have [01:36:40] walked away. I doubt it somehow.

Payman Langroudi: And did you ever get involved in sort of the digital [01:36:45] side of dentistry, or. I guess.

Tara Renton: I have.

Payman Langroudi: Just not.

Tara Renton: The web app is, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: No. [01:36:50] So yeah, my sort of chosen course would be probably, well, more psychology [01:36:55] because I love it, but um, MIT in health, I’d love to do a course sort of around [01:37:00] AI and health.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so listening to you now, I feel like just [01:37:05] endless curiosities, like a massive, massive, like [01:37:10] it’s a, it’s a prerequisite to becoming someone like you.

Tara Renton: I think it [01:37:15] helps. It makes the journey much more fun.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: Um, yeah. No, [01:37:20] I think it’s a very, very cool thing I would say actually, and just interested in lots of things. And I [01:37:25] belong to the RSPB. I’ve just been to India. My husband’s involved in tiger conservation. [01:37:30] So big animal lovers and um, love nature. [01:37:35] I cycle every morning in Richmond Park when I can, so I have my own safari every morning. All [01:37:40] the birds.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Tara Renton: Took a video of the stags this morning, crossing the road in front of me.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:37:45] what did you say was the lowest point? Was it this bullying part incident, like [01:37:50] in this 40 year journey?

Tara Renton: Yes. Um, I was sexually [01:37:55] abused. 11. That was pretty tough. Didn’t tell my mum until about five years [01:38:00] ago. That was horrible. And that’s probably part of my personality as well, just [01:38:05] digging my way out of that. So that was pretty awful. Um, and [01:38:10] then yeah, the bullying at at that, that particular job was tough actually.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel [01:38:15] like one mirrored the other? Like in your head?

Tara Renton: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [01:38:20] does, you know, like sometimes.

Tara Renton: The one I wasn’t there out of choice. And the second [01:38:25] one, the bullying scenario I was going to into work every day. So some submissive, [01:38:30] you know, submitting to this horrible behaviour. So that’s slightly different. And that [01:38:35] made it harder in a way. Um, yeah. So yeah, no sort [01:38:40] of character building as my mom says, tough, tough love.

Payman Langroudi: If you like. So [01:38:45] then now going forward, basically retired, but [01:38:50] you’re working. You’re working. Yeah. On, on the legal side and.

Tara Renton: Uh, not doing much. I’d [01:38:55] love to do more. I’d love to do more medical legal actually. So I’m just, um, um, [01:39:00] involved in writing an opinion paper, uh, for the BDJ [01:39:05] on the, uh, Winterbottom case. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I’ve got [01:39:10] Irish is involved and he honestly, he’s been through the wringer and he. It’s completely. [01:39:15] Judgement seems very odd. Doesn’t seem right. So [01:39:20] I’m very, very interested in exploring that from a clinical and legal perspective. [01:39:25] So Linda Cruz is doing that with us. Excellent. That’s something I want to pursue. Again, I’d love [01:39:30] when I retired I thought I might do a law degree actually. Really. I don’t I’m not I’m [01:39:35] not a thing. I’m going to do that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s that course at Cardiff that’s like law for doctors or [01:39:40] something like that.

Tara Renton: I might look into that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: I find it fascinating because they think in such a different way. [01:39:45] Yeah, yeah. Totally different way. So I’m not sure I get.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the most impressive professionals I’ve come across are lawyers. [01:39:50]

Tara Renton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Some of the most annoying as well. Yeah. Some of the most impressive.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, [01:39:55] yeah, I’ve noticed that along the way. Yeah. So do you, do you miss the rough [01:40:00] and tumble or are you.

Tara Renton: I miss the I miss my team at work. Yeah. Not seeing them, I [01:40:05] miss operating. Yeah. Um. I’m still seeing patients. That’s still a challenge. I’m [01:40:10] still Invited all over the world to. Lecture won’t be going on for much longer because I won’t be [01:40:15] current for much longer. Um. I’m still. I’m writing a paper for [01:40:20] BMJ Practical Neurology. So breaking down the silos around facial [01:40:25] pain, teaching neurologists about toothache, basically. Um, I’ve [01:40:30] got a load of I help still. I’ve got two clinical fellows who want to do PhDs. [01:40:35] I can’t supervise them, sadly. Crazy thing. Retire, return [01:40:40] only you’re only allowed to return for two years at King’s. I mean, the different universities have different [01:40:45] regulations. I’d love to be doing more. You know, I wouldn’t be charging them anything like free [01:40:50] pro-bono. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: No, not even that.

Tara Renton: No, no. Can’t do [01:40:55] it. I don’t know the regulations.

Payman Langroudi: People like.

Tara Renton: I don’t I obviously don’t want people hanging around [01:41:00] like a bad smell. And I’m very aware of that. I don’t want to do that either. You know, I really don’t. I want to [01:41:05] not hang around and be one of those people in the room think, oh God, he’s still here.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:41:10] to mind if I ask you? Like, what was the lecture? Or a lecturer? Yes, that [01:41:15] that blew you away.

Tara Renton: Um. Probably two. So when I was a dental [01:41:20] student, um, we had, uh, Mark Ferguson, I think it was who did the, um, [01:41:25] discovered that crocodiles in utero didn’t scar when they repaired their cleft lip and palate. [01:41:30] I know it’s weird, but I love that. Yeah. And then my probably seminal lecture was [01:41:35] listening to Irene Tracy, who’s now provost or vice provost at Oxford [01:41:40] University. She is a pharmacist, but did some of the seminal work around [01:41:45] pain perception using MRIs, which is where I ended up. I was hoping to work with her, [01:41:50] but she never came to London and we nearly did. Um, but I’ve done a huge amount of MRI work, [01:41:55] and on that front, I’m very much involved in developing MRI neurography. [01:42:00] So we can see nerves for the first time in imaging, which is very exciting.

Payman Langroudi: How does [01:42:05] that work?

Tara Renton: It’s basically clever mathematicians. So basically you have an MRI. [01:42:10] Um, just a normal MRI, which is fantastic. But what you do is you have a [01:42:15] specific coil that actually, um, accentuates the concentration [01:42:20] of the, of the MRI in those areas. And um, Frederick van [01:42:25] de Crusnes, one of my star PhD students, I’ve had 14 PhD students over the years. They’re all my work [01:42:30] babies. They’re amazing. He, he developed this. And you can actually see all the cranial [01:42:35] nerves on an image. So and you can see if the, for example, lingual nerve is broken, if [01:42:40] it’s swollen, if it’s hyperintensive inflamed. So we’re just developing that first in Manhattan [01:42:45] at King’s at the moment. So they’ve got it up and running in a few centres in the in the US [01:42:50] and a couple of centres in Belgium. But first here, which is really exciting. [01:42:55] So that’s a project that I will not let go because I just think it’s fascinating. It’s going to be a whole new science. [01:43:00] And we’ve never looked at nerves before, never been able to do ophthalmologists, headache [01:43:05] neurologists. They are gagging for this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s.

Tara Renton: Fantastic. Cancer surgery [01:43:10] planning. It’s amazing. Um, and what the clever guys. So so basically [01:43:15] the and we also use contrast. So gadolinium, which helps obviously [01:43:20] visualise the nerves. Um, so what you can see is and what they’ve done is they’ve basically sort of refined [01:43:25] the, the mathematical algorithms. So you can actually differentiate nerve tissue from fat. Um, [01:43:30] and obviously water content for other arteries and bits and pieces. So the scans [01:43:35] are developing that I’m working with the team at um Slam or um, IOP [01:43:40] in the Institute of Psychiatry Psychology. They’ve got a big central neuroscience neuroscience imaging [01:43:45] centre there, which is where I’ve done most of my research. So blessed, such interesting people, [01:43:50] so clever. And they’re basically developing an MRI scan that could do [01:43:55] bone arteries and nerve. So it’s really super exciting. So that’s one of the projects. My web app [01:44:00] is a big project. Um, I’d love to commercialise that. So it can actually be just take [01:44:05] a psych assessment of patients before you see them. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Should do that. [01:44:10]

Tara Renton: I’d love to do that.

Payman Langroudi: If it works, then the next step to do that I’d love to do that.

Tara Renton: And [01:44:15] then because I, one of my heartbreaking things around seeing patients for these many, many [01:44:20] years is delayed or wrong diagnosis. So many patients sit around some [01:44:25] unfortunately, with cancer, not too many, thank God. But then people, you know, they’ve had [01:44:30] all this dental work and they’ve actually got a migraine of v3 mandibular branch or maxillary [01:44:35] branch, or they’ve got a cluster headache type thing going on. Um. [01:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I spoke to someone.

Tara Renton: So many patients.

Payman Langroudi: Who said, you’re a dentist. I said, yeah, and [01:44:45] he said, I’ve got to ask you about this thing. Uh, trigeminal neuralgia.

Tara Renton: Everyone knows about neuralgia. [01:44:50] It’s the least common facial pain.

Payman Langroudi: So I said, yeah, what do you want to know? And he said, [01:44:55] I went through 12 years of going through different doctors until [01:45:00] someone said, this is what it is.

Tara Renton: And it was.

Payman Langroudi: Ten. It was ten, [01:45:05] and it had an operation to resect MVD.

Tara Renton: But [01:45:10] one of the few indications for surgery and.

Payman Langroudi: A tear came to his eye when he mentioned the name of the guy [01:45:15] who finally figured it out, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: No TN is we do see [01:45:20] it’s the least common diagnosis that we make very, very life impactful for [01:45:25] patients.

Payman Langroudi: Because the pain is severe. Right?

Tara Renton: Well, the pain is severe. You get either elicited or spontaneous. [01:45:30] Often around this area. It’s probably sodium. It’s inherited and [01:45:35] 18% of patients really onset spontaneous starts, usually 5060 year [01:45:40] olds. Yeah. Sort of almost equal distribution men and women. Um, and [01:45:45] uh, haven’t found the cause yet. Mvd basically peels of an artery [01:45:50] or a, or a vein off the stem of the nerve as it comes out, but still, we don’t really [01:45:55] understand how that works. But it’s the most effective treatment after medical treatment initially. Mhm. But if [01:46:00] you’re a pilot or a HGV driver. You can’t tolerate the medications because they just slow you down, slow [01:46:05] your responses. So but that’s I think that’s pretty well treated. There’s a guy called Cruccu [01:46:10] in Italy who’s the lead. He’s done some exceptional work around TN. So I think it’d [01:46:15] be unusual now. I mean all medics know about TN because they remember the trigeminal neuralgia case on their neurosurgery [01:46:20] ward round. So that’s the only oral facial pain that most medics know about. They all know about it. [01:46:25] And that’s frustrating to me because all that gets it’s always TNTNTN. But actually toothache [01:46:30] can mimic migraines, can mimic TN, can mimic all sorts of different conditions. [01:46:35] And then obviously post-traumatic neuropathy, nerve injuries is a biggie. Much bigger and [01:46:40] bigger than TN because you have you touch it, you get electric shock, you get mechanical allodynia or [01:46:45] thermal allodynia, which is a feature of that, of that condition. So that’s often misdiagnosed [01:46:50] as well. What about. So that’s what the web apps come about, is to try and develop a sort [01:46:55] of diagnostic app that will direct patients either to neurologists or to a dentist [01:47:00] or to ENT so they don’t end up going to an ENT surgeon having sinus washout and septal [01:47:05] deviation correction, and then being told that they’ve got, you know, cluster headache or going to [01:47:10] the neurologist and having five years of, of headache medication when they’ve actually got, you [01:47:15] know, tooth or embedded carious wisdom tooth that no one’s picked up on and [01:47:20] a long cone periapical.

Payman Langroudi: So is the least common. What’s the most common migraine?

Tara Renton: Migraine [01:47:25] is very, very common. So and migraine always generally in [01:47:30] most patients affects v1, v2, v3.

Payman Langroudi: All the way down.

Tara Renton: It does. And we forget that. [01:47:35] And there’s an increasing number of patients now that come to us who’ve got misdiagnosed pain. And actually [01:47:40] it’s migraine. So you can actually screen that’s part of our screening. It’s hit six. You can screen out migraines [01:47:45] very, very easily and find out if there are migraine.

Payman Langroudi: And has has bruxism increased. [01:47:50] And TMJ.

Tara Renton: Is not a pain condition and bruxism.

Payman Langroudi: Is not.

Tara Renton: There’s really good evidence [01:47:55] now that bruxism does not drive muscle pain and.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really, really, really.

Tara Renton: So, you know, we’ve had patients [01:48:00] where they’ve got no teeth, like one millimetre of tooth tissue above their gingival level. Yeah. [01:48:05] No pain.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Tara Renton: So bruxism, there’s two there’s awake and sleep, bruxism, sleep [01:48:10] bruxism. Nocturnal bruxism, bruxism. Increasingly. Another inspirational lecture. [01:48:15] Danny. Danny Eccles. He’s a sleep [01:48:20] physician researcher. Adelaide. Incredible. And [01:48:25] um, his work is international based but they basically [01:48:30] showing that actually nocturnal bruxism is an activity that coincides with periodic [01:48:35] limb movements. So restless leg syndrome at night. Yeah. And actually it’s all to do with the arousal [01:48:40] phase of sleep. So it’s a neuromuscular phenomenon. It’s not stress. [01:48:45] Oh really? Yeah. And actually what you need to do, how you I mean stopping [01:48:50] restless leg syndrome. It’s the same old drugs we use for a lot of chronic pain conditions, relaxant, muscle relaxant drugs. [01:48:55] But actually you just need to protect the teeth and reassure the patient. Daytime [01:49:00] I definitely clench is probably stress related, but it doesn’t drive [01:49:05] pain.

Payman Langroudi: So to that, that bit of information that I have is, I guess, old information. [01:49:10]

Tara Renton: It is. I think it’s coming through. I mean, the other thing that’s very interesting as well, that I’ve published quite [01:49:15] a bit on recently is myogenous TMD. So muscle based jaw joint pain, a [01:49:20] lot of that is migraine.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really?

Tara Renton: So you need to and again, [01:49:25] it’s something dentists should be doing routinely is if the patients presenting with a pain [01:49:30] just say, do you get headaches? Do you get migraines? And they know most patients will know [01:49:35] if they have a history or they currently get intermittent migraines.

Payman Langroudi: So much of it is going into that [01:49:40] functional medicine kind of that’s.

Tara Renton: Where.

Payman Langroudi: We should be interaction. That’s where we should be. Mouth body connection. [01:49:45] I wouldn’t expect that from someone coming from, you know, oral surgery, you know, but [01:49:50] you’re very much everything you’ve said is in that sort of.

Tara Renton: It is that’s where we need to be. [01:49:55] That’s the whole place we need to be to optimise the treatment for our patients. And [01:50:00] and that’s not what’s being taught, sadly. And it’s so much more interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:50:05] it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure to have you, professor. [01:50:10] Stay awake. Dame. Stop it. Please [01:50:15] don’t do that. Can I can I finish off with the usual questions where you ask the fantasy [01:50:20] dinner party? Three guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Tara Renton: Um, [01:50:25] I’ve got no name. Uh, so, um, [01:50:30] Atul Gawande, who’s the medic? The Indian American medic who was Obama’s medical [01:50:35] adviser, who’s done a huge amount around lots and lots of areas, [01:50:40] but he was Mr. Checklist. He was one of the first people to introduce the W.H.O. [01:50:45] checklist, which is now surpassed. But it’s I think it’s entered the culture of most.

Payman Langroudi: It speaks very [01:50:50] well as well.

Tara Renton: He’s a fantastic speaker. Yeah. Um, I think he was on, um, [01:50:55] Rory Stewart, wasn’t he? Uh, Campbell and Stewart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. Politics. [01:51:00] Politics. Leading. Leading. Yeah.

Tara Renton: He’s really good. Um. And then [01:51:05] I wrote an actress name down and I’ve had a mental block now.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was she in? [01:51:10]

Tara Renton: She was a jungle queen. Um, she was a sort of kick [01:51:15] ass woman. Didn’t take any prisoners. We were going back to the 1950s movies. I grew [01:51:20] up, my dad was a great movie buff. Um, Katharine Hepburn.

Payman Langroudi: Katharine Hepburn loved her. Okay.

Tara Renton: Trousers. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tara Renton: Did her own thing, but in a nice way. Um, and [01:51:30] then, um, who else would I invite? [01:51:35] I mean, I don’t think Elon Musk would be. He is phenomenal. I don’t like him. He’s [01:51:40] not a nice person, but he’s phenomenal.

Payman Langroudi: He is I think on the net net you have to say he’s an asset. I [01:51:45] mean.

Tara Renton: Yeah I think I’d agree.

Payman Langroudi: With you. He could be a Nazi whatever whatever he is a right winger, [01:51:50] whatever he is. But if you look at what he’s done, you’ve got to say it’s so impressive. [01:51:55] Humanity’s moved forward. Yeah.

Tara Renton: It’s so impressive. And he talks about his busy. [01:52:00] I have a busy brain, which is why, you know, I don’t I have I don’t have when someone, a couple of people [01:52:05] have asked me if I have therapy and I’ve never done that, but I say my bicycles, my therapy. And [01:52:10] I learned that, you know, with long time back when really busy family [01:52:15] look back, I just can’t believe what we did, you know, spinning all those plates and doing everything. But [01:52:20] the one thing I did was I bought a second hand Brompton bike on eBay because [01:52:25] I was frustrated. I was getting no exercise. And it basically meant I could take it [01:52:30] everywhere and I could cycle between meetings, cycle to work as much as I could cycle home. And honestly, [01:52:35] I could have the shittiest day from hell. Want to kill everyone? Get on [01:52:40] the bike. Five minutes cycling from Denmark Hill to Vauxhall.

Payman Langroudi: Solve [01:52:45] it.

Tara Renton: And that’s what I learned. Actually. That’s probably.

Payman Langroudi: Some [01:52:50] lime bikes for that, but.

Tara Renton: No lime bikes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though there’s not much work going on. No, no. The [01:52:55] speed of acceleration. Yeah. No, but you’re right. And in winter it’s [01:53:00] harder, isn’t it? Yeah. In winter I don’t use them as much. No. And actually feel it, [01:53:05] you know. Oh do you. And somehow I make a point. You use 2 or 3 a day. Yeah. I’ll cycle here. [01:53:10] Cycle back, cycle wherever. I should make.

Tara Renton: A point of doing it more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: As I say in Norway, it’s not the [01:53:15] wrong weather. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Wrong place. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Tara Renton: Very much. I cycle snow, rain, everything. [01:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: You do, you.

Tara Renton: Get out. I love it, it just makes me feel.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. There is something.

Tara Renton: A dose of mindfulness. [01:53:25] Nature. Get home and I’m ready for the rest of the day. I love it so I don’t [01:53:30] I think Elon needs to do probably more cycling. I don’t know. He’d be less productive if he does more cycling. But it’d [01:53:35] be interesting to sit next to someone with that much of a busy brain, or maybe a bit of a misogynist, I don’t [01:53:40] know. I’ve had enough of those in my life, but.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a deathbed question.

Tara Renton: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Lying [01:53:45] on your deathbed, surrounded by your dearest and [01:53:50] nearest and dearest many years from now. What three pieces of advice would you [01:53:55] leave for them and for the world?

Tara Renton: Stay curious. Probably? Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:54:00] seems.

Tara Renton: Clear. That’s my biggest joy. Um. Priorities. [01:54:05] Prioritise your friends and family. I’ve got eight girlfriends. [01:54:10] I wouldn’t be here sitting here now without my amazing husband. Three [01:54:15] kids. I’m incredibly proud of that. I haven’t fucked up completely. Um, [01:54:20] and the girlfriends we’ve seen each other through.

Payman Langroudi: Which era are they from? From [01:54:25] school, university, or.

Tara Renton: A couple I’ve known for 40 years.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh.

Tara Renton: Um. Uh, [01:54:30] yeah, about half over half of them I’ve known for 38, [01:54:35] 40 years. And then there’s a few new add ons that we met at antenatal [01:54:40] with our Firstborn’s 33, 33 years. I can’t believe I’m saying [01:54:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing like old friends. Nothing like old friends.

Tara Renton: So friends and family, I think, are really, [01:54:50] really up there. Curiosity. And I would say, stick to your guns. [01:54:55] If there’s if you’re principled, if I look back and think, I could have made some really dumb [01:55:00] decisions, like not doing medicine, I didn’t do it. I was right, I was very lucky because [01:55:05] oral surgery came in, you know, and then I. Yeah, no, stick to your [01:55:10] guns, you know, you know, know who you are. And, and if you have a goal, [01:55:15] just, just keep at it. And if you keep hitting a brick wall, just walk around that wall. Find a way [01:55:20] around that wall.

Payman Langroudi: What do you wish you were more like.

Tara Renton: Uh, [01:55:25] my husband.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense?

Tara Renton: Calm. Kind. [01:55:30]

Payman Langroudi: You seem calm.

Tara Renton: I am calm.

Payman Langroudi: You seem kind.

Tara Renton: I am kind.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:55:35] What is it? What is it you’re bad at? You know. That’s what I’m getting at.

Tara Renton: I think I, I have [01:55:40] I can have the element of irritating people. I don’t mean hating people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:55:45] what sense?

Tara Renton: Um, there’s a family joke really that I, you know, I’m ADHD [01:55:50] and. Yeah, I’m a bit busy. Mrs. [01:55:55] McHenry.

Payman Langroudi: From.

Tara Renton: Magic Roundabout. So yeah, probably. But [01:56:00] then that’s part of my charm, I guess. A lot of people tell me, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the [01:56:05] thing is, you could say I wish I was better at politicking in I guess. Yeah, [01:56:10] but but but the charm of it is that you’re not.

Tara Renton: Yeah, I guess so. Well, it’s it’s not [01:56:15] served me too badly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And I’d be a very different person if I was better at that kind [01:56:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly, exactly.

Tara Renton: Probably be nice just to have a little tiny bit of commercial [01:56:25] DNA.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Tara Renton: Yeah, yeah. Because I really haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: That sounds like your husband’s got that [01:56:30] in spades.

Tara Renton: He. Yes. He has.

Payman Langroudi: So you should do a project together. You should do this teaching centre.

Tara Renton: I’d [01:56:35] love to do it together. Well, I was just. I ring up Richard Porter and just say, [01:56:40] do you want your oral surgery or a facial pain I love. I’d [01:56:45] love to train oral facial pain. Do you know, I get a lot of people asking me about doing special. There’s [01:56:50] no speciality in oral facial pain. Yeah, but I think it would be a fantastic thing if certain dentists are interested. [01:56:55] I think you do your dentistry for 4 or 5 days a week, and then you do one day speciality, [01:57:00] and that would be make an awful lot of sense for for, you know, maintaining interest. [01:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: So this is something I want to go into at this thing at ministry, right? Is the question of [01:57:10] should I specialise or should I go on Richard Porter’s course? Yes. [01:57:15] Or for the sake of the argument, Frank spear or yes or whatever. [01:57:20] But you know, should I specialise? And the other question, which speciality should I do? [01:57:25] Because I think oral surgery. I say all surgeries, one on its own in a way. [01:57:30] But for me, when I when a young dentist ask me which, which one should I do? I’m [01:57:35] not sure which one I like the most. I’m going to do whichever one. Yeah. Like get very good at anything. [01:57:40] Yeah. And you’ll enjoy it. Outside of. Also, I’d say all surgery and max facts and blood [01:57:45] and flaps and bone. Some people are made for that, and some people just don’t want to [01:57:50] go anywhere near that.

Tara Renton: And I understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But whether it’s.

Tara Renton: A lot of people do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. A lot of people [01:57:55] do. A lot of people do.

Tara Renton: And it’s incredibly rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the thing we don’t have anymore is that, you know, the failed [01:58:00] medic syndrome. Yes. Because it’s just as hard to get into dentistry as to get into medicine.

Tara Renton: Well, it’s. [01:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: Harder. It’s harder in my day that that was the thing. Yeah. It was you couldn’t quite get into [01:58:10] medicine then that you came to dentistry. And then then and then those guys end up becoming Max fac surgeons because [01:58:15] they wanted to be doctors. For me, you said it for me.

Tara Renton: I was biting my tongue, which is very [01:58:20] unusual, which is not a great that’s not a great solution. No, it’s [01:58:25] not a great professional way to select your future career. Yeah. No, I think and it’s not. And, [01:58:30] you know, saying that now it’s and [01:58:35] the part of the reason I originally chose dentistry is I know that I, I knew that I could work [01:58:40] in a practice for one or 2 or 3 days a week and do whatever I wanted to do. The other [01:58:45] time. So I think there’s that pressure of I think the kids put themselves under a lot of pressure. [01:58:50] They want to be Instagram influencers. They want to be this. They probably want to prefer to be that than actually [01:58:55] doing a lot of the dentistry, to be fair, which is a shame for the patients. Um, [01:59:00] but I think it’s not just about pleasing. [01:59:05] I think there’s so much out there, like, well, like orofacial pain, there’s no speciality in orofacial pain. [01:59:10] There’s no speciality in lots of aspects of teeth whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: No implants. Implants.

Payman Langroudi: Not going [01:59:15] with that. Should I specialise, should I go on a course? Should there be some sort of hybrid? Yeah. Which [01:59:20] is what you’re suggesting.

Tara Renton: I think it would be great.

Payman Langroudi: Like even even at one from institutions, you know, like [01:59:25] it could be that you could go. And I know it’s like a part time MSc. They have these things, right? [01:59:30] But but something where people could, could follow an interest.

Tara Renton: And have [01:59:35] a network, a supportive network.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Tara Renton: And that would be a UK wide. I mean, another [01:59:40] going back to undergraduate. Why don’t we have national curricula in orofacial pain? [01:59:45] You know, I heard you saying one of your podcasts about when you first qualified from Cardiff, [01:59:50] you went into BT and you had you could see that some people were really good at this, and [01:59:55] some people were really good at that and, you know, identified some of the weaknesses in your own training. Yeah. [02:00:00] I just think, actually, why aren’t we just. And that’s an argument for even the NHS as well, [02:00:05] when there’s all this good stuff happening, why aren’t we harnessing that and spreading the love? [02:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because we’re very slow to change. We’re very slow to change. But you’re form of the system, [02:00:15] right? Can you can you understand why we’re so slow to change?

Tara Renton: Well, I think one of the [02:00:20] problems, like talking about ID blocks and, and, and diagnosing TN, we’re [02:00:25] still doing the same stuff we were taught at dental school.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but look, your kids are in, you know, it [02:00:30] data science, AI changing weekly.

Tara Renton: Yes, but I’m just.

Payman Langroudi: Saying those industries [02:00:35] are very quick to change, but Dental medical.

Tara Renton: But they’re still teaching the same stuff I was taught [02:00:40] at dental school and that’s wrong. It’s mad and it’s wrong. It’s completely wrong and it’s not [02:00:45] fit for purpose. And I feel sorry for the kids for that because they’re already predisposed to anxiety. [02:00:50] They don’t have their confidence is not built up enough, I think, [02:00:55] and their interpersonal skills, they don’t know who they are.

Payman Langroudi: How have you managed to navigate all [02:01:00] of this and keep such a like, smile on your face? Because [02:01:05] that’s I’d say that’s the the biggest success of your sort of career. Like we like meeting [02:01:10] you properly is that, you know, you know, a lot of people get jaded and [02:01:15] lost.

Tara Renton: I’m always well, it’s the curiosity and I’m always hoping for. I [02:01:20] feel most sorry for people that go to work and do the same thing over [02:01:25] and over again. Never question, never think about how they can make things better [02:01:30] for the patient. Go home and have dinner.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Tara Renton: That would be, for me, the worst possible [02:01:35] work life environment I would have. Yeah I [02:01:40] am. I have managed with grit and determination, [02:01:45] but mostly curiosity and energy to, you [02:01:50] know, identify something that seems like a really good idea. Changing practices impossible. [02:01:55] Like the guidelines and everything. You just get all these, you know, depending on their different personality disorders. [02:02:00] Yeah. And we can’t do this because of that. And we can’t do that. You know, the, the negative this and but yeah, [02:02:05] I think, I think if you’re patient centred, then that that is obvious. The choice [02:02:10] is obvious that actually that’s the right direction, the right factor. We go in.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [02:02:15] and you’ve, you’ve lectured all over the world. Are there different research [02:02:20] cultures.

Tara Renton: Oh my goodness. Different Dental cultures. Yeah. Different conference cultures.

Payman Langroudi: So for [02:02:25] instance, one, one thing I heard that the, the Chinese research is much more [02:02:30] centralised. And so much as they look at a big problem and direct all [02:02:35] the resources towards these big problems in university.

Tara Renton: Well, that’s what they do in [02:02:40] corporates and R&D and corporates. Yeah, exactly. It’s exactly the same process. It’s much more commercial.

Payman Langroudi: So where we’re [02:02:45] at with with universities is almost it’s almost like a passion projects of [02:02:50] or of course, there’s the, the funding side of it as well. Yeah, [02:02:55] I think the passion is an important part of it. Right. But do you think there should be more coordination like [02:03:00] UK wide, wide. We should coordinate research.

Tara Renton: Should be much less barriers, much less [02:03:05] silos. Yeah. And much more collaboration. Yeah. And I think that’s something [02:03:10] that’s probably one of my other skills. I was never frightened to Praveen Anand, [02:03:15] who’s a is a fantastic, godlike neurologist at [02:03:20] Hammersmith Hospital. He led the whole research into nerve growth factor [02:03:25] in diabetic neuropathy. Mega brain. I wanted to as part of my PhD, [02:03:30] I wanted to use this equipment. It’s called medic and it basically is quantitative sensory testing. [02:03:35] So you have, um, hot and cold and you look at different fibre types A-delta C fibre [02:03:40] and how they react and pick up the different thresholds. Anyway, this really [02:03:45] expensive machinery and the rep was really lovely penny. And she said, oh well Prof Adnan’s [02:03:50] got that at Hammersmith Hospital. And I said, well you know, she said, oh I’m [02:03:55] sure, I’m sure he’d let you see the equipment. So there’s me [02:04:00] and I, you know, I’ve never been backwards and coming forward, I will front up and take a [02:04:05] challenge. Um, and I, you know, I remember going to his clinic and I honestly, it felt [02:04:10] like I was in hyperspace. There was him, there was a very bright Peter [02:04:15] neurophysiologist from Queen’s Square. There was Rolf Birch, really famous orthopaedic [02:04:20] surgeon who first talked about brachial plexus syndrome and pain after orthopaedic surgery. He [02:04:25] used to wear a Deerstalker and a pipe. I was in this clinic. It was like surreal. [02:04:30] And I really probably fundamentally understood less than 2% [02:04:35] of the conversation. It’s like dumb blonde, you know? And I just but it [02:04:40] didn’t stop me, you know? And he was brilliant. He let me he persuaded [02:04:45] the company to lend me a machine for one of my PhD chapters. That’s that’s how [02:04:50] to be is not afraid to if you’re that curious in something and you’ve [02:04:55] got the energy and the drive, things are going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [02:05:00] it reminds me of one of my school friends. He’s become a world expert [02:05:05] at, uh, psychology.

Tara Renton: Oh, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Fungus disease. [02:05:10] That he’s a doctor, but he’s become a real top guy in that. And he invited me to his professorial [02:05:15] lecture. And, um, honestly, slide two. [02:05:20] I was completely lost. Completely lost. And I thought I knew it. You know, I [02:05:25] thought I’d understand a few medical terms or.

Tara Renton: I’ve had so many.

Payman Langroudi: Experiences. Like I told [02:05:30] him. Slide two. I was I just couldn’t keep up. And he goes two. I [02:05:35] was like, and you know, when they’re in their own world, aren’t they for them? And there’s [02:05:40] other people in the room that they’re trying to impress or whatever they’re talking. He was talking so matter of fact [02:05:45] ish and I literally couldn’t keep up after slide two.

Tara Renton: And I’ll tell you the worst scenarios that you have [02:05:50] someone like that lecturing before you get up to lecture after them. Even worse. I felt like the village idiot [02:05:55] quite a few conferences. Like I’m obviously just there for the entertainment. I’m not really there for any kind of the [02:06:00] intellectual knowledge base.

Payman Langroudi: Place you’ve been.

Tara Renton: Oh golly, I’ve just been to the Andaman [02:06:05] Islands, which is very. The Andaman Islands are an archipelago [02:06:10] of islands, uh, east of India and west of Myanmar. [02:06:15] Oh, so they’re like. And if you follow the archipelago down, it becomes the Philippines. [02:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Was it beautiful or Indonesia?

Tara Renton: Indonesia. Indonesia. Absolutely. Stunningly beautiful. [02:06:25] Impossibly difficult to get to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. How’d you get there?

Tara Renton: By boat. Hardly [02:06:30] any European. You do? By boat, by plane, by plane, by plane, by boat. Um, [02:06:35] but absolutely, absolutely beautiful. Um, [02:06:40] did a bit of diving, which I haven’t done for ages.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful in the sort of the yellow sand, kind of beautiful. [02:06:45]

Tara Renton: Beautiful beach something. We lived in Australia for five years and I go back a lot. My kids have been based in Australia [02:06:50] on and off for eight years. So beautiful beaches, beautiful beaches, a beautiful beach. But [02:06:55] um, the you land there basically. Um, the north Andaman is [02:07:00] basically there’s over 300 islands and only um 23 are [02:07:05] inhabited and only three of the islands have tourists on. Oh, and when [02:07:10] you fly over it’s this dense tropical forest.

Payman Langroudi: Forest.

Tara Renton: And [02:07:15] most of these lovely islands you go to is like the Maldives. It’s like pretty flat. And they’ve got these beautiful [02:07:20] hills. But when you go and go into the forest, I’m not kidding you. It’s like something out of [02:07:25] Games of Thrones. These trees are like Norfolk pines [02:07:30] and thick trunks. Beautiful. They go up 20m [02:07:35] at least.

Payman Langroudi: So would you get on a boat and and go to these different islands? [02:07:40]

Tara Renton: You can you can visit different islands or you just stay on one of them. We were on Havelock Island. They’re [02:07:45] all named after old British officers. Um and um [02:07:50] I think they’re trying to change the names, but they haven’t got around to it yet.

Payman Langroudi: So they call the Andaman.

Tara Renton: Called the Andaman.

Payman Langroudi: Andaman [02:07:55] Islands.

Tara Renton: Andaman Islands. Yeah. So that’s probably and [02:08:00] it was on the back of going to one of Tony’s Tiger annual Tiger conference. So he’s involved [02:08:05] in tiger conservation. So it just combines all that lovely thing that he does, which is I’m [02:08:10] really proud of him that he does that. So that was a very, very special trip. Yeah. But [02:08:15] I mean I love Cornwall, so I spent my first few years in Cornwall. So probably [02:08:20] my favourite place on earth is Cool Sand beach.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Tara Renton: Yeah, that’s where my [02:08:25] ashes are going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t feel like the rest of the UK, does it? It just feels like a different country.

Tara Renton: Where the people are [02:08:30] very different.

Payman Langroudi: People are different. It’s just different. Everything different. Different landscapes, different hilliness. [02:08:35] Yeah.

Tara Renton: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: There it is cool.

Tara Renton: The walks are great. The sea. Just [02:08:40] being in. I swim every day.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a place there?

Tara Renton: My mum’s my mum’s house. Oh, your mum’s on the beach.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [02:08:45]

Tara Renton: The pub’s five foot outside the front door.

Payman Langroudi: And.

Tara Renton: The back, back gate goes onto [02:08:50] the beach. I don’t think there’s a better place on earth. I love it there.

Payman Langroudi: Good food and stuff as well. [02:08:55]

Tara Renton: Uh, it can be, it can be variable. But yeah, no, generally pretty good food. Excellent. Yeah. [02:09:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s been such a massive pleasure and a real privilege to have you. So thank you so much for coming [02:09:05] all the way.

Tara Renton: My pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really enjoyed that and learned so much from you. I don’t your [02:09:10] mindset particularly is just such a such a beautiful way of looking at things, you know, like curious, [02:09:15] positive, um, uh, I always thought that was a young person’s [02:09:20] outlook, but it’s lovely to see someone continuous to be continuing to be that [02:09:25] way, you know, post retiring from all of your jobs.

Tara Renton: I think the family would like me just to kick off [02:09:30] the shoes. It’s never going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for doing this.

Tara Renton: My absolute pleasure. Payman. [02:09:35] Thank you for the invitation.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [02:09:40] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [02:09:45] in dentistry. Your hosts Payman [02:09:50] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:09:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [02:10:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [02:10:05] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [02:10:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [02:10:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [02:10:20] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Dental educational events need a shake up? I’m really happy to announce that we’ll be doing [00:00:05] a new event in June called The Minimalist Conference at Ministry of Sound, [00:00:10] where we’re going to have 30 speakers and two parties. It starts at 2:00 [00:00:15] and finishes at 2:00 as well on the 13th of June, which is Saturday. [00:00:20] Check out the website at minimalist dash dot dot [00:00:25] app, or check out the Instagram page at minimalist [00:00:30] dot join us.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [00:00:45] leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Mike grey onto the podcast. Mike is a. Legendary [00:01:00] is the best word I can find for it. Yeah yeah yeah. [00:01:05] I’ve got a degree of hero worship for you, man. Um, [00:01:10] they say never meet your heroes. But, you know, it’s a massive pleasure that you’ve come.

Mike Gray: Oh, no. It’s my [00:01:15] pleasure. Like I said, I. I think you got the wrong guy. Like I said, because it’s Dental Leaders [00:01:20] podcast and look at me, you know, but, uh, no absolute pleasure. And, uh, [00:01:25] yeah, it’s, uh, much respect for yourself as well and everything. Well, you [00:01:30] know, it’s, you’re a perfect person to speak to of life outside dentistry, [00:01:35] you know, because, uh, which is, and it’s awesome. And I think you don’t realise that [00:01:40] when you start dentistry, um, because you think, well, you know, I just have to drill people’s mouths and yet [00:01:45] you done all this, which is awesome.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very flexible, isn’t it? Dentistry that [00:01:50] my daughter’s thinking of going into it. Although these days you never know with, uh, robots [00:01:55] and you know what’s going to be like eight years time when she.

Mike Gray: Was working on it, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:02:00] I mean, the brain, definitely the the language model. And it’s time. It’s going to be the [00:02:05] super computer. Right. But then the only other thing is like, you know, the eyes and the hands. Yeah. And [00:02:10] you know, man, if they can’t make hands better than human hands in eight years time.

Mike Gray: Then when [00:02:15] Musk was on about it, I saw something the other day.

Payman Langroudi: He’s like, go to medical school. Yeah, I saw that.

Mike Gray: Well, it’s. [00:02:20] And it’s right. Yeah. I’d give that advice in this country for different reasons.

Payman Langroudi: But your mom’s [00:02:25] a doctor, right?

Mike Gray: Yeah. She is. She is. And she said, don’t do medicine. It’s 2004. [00:02:30] I went to university, so, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve got an amazing sort [00:02:35] of history insomuch as not only are you an expert at restorative dentistry, [00:02:40] some innovative stuff that I’ve seen you’re doing and teaching. Yeah. Um, around [00:02:45] minimally invasive stuff around full mouth stuff and surgical stuff. Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:02:50] photography. Yeah. But actually your journeys come through mountain [00:02:55] Biking at the highest level. Travelling the world. Doing that. [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. And a music career.

Mike Gray: Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: How did this.

Mike Gray: Career. [00:03:05] I shouldn’t say failed because I did I did all right. Yeah. Um. Yeah. And I [00:03:10] think I would say that’s a big strength in that just [00:03:15] from coming from those worlds. It means I approach things quite [00:03:20] different now. Um, so yeah, mountain biking, I did that. I’ve [00:03:25] always been two wheels, anything, two wheels, um, from about the age of ten. And, uh, I used to race [00:03:30] a race pretty much professionally. I raced over the World Series over three [00:03:35] different disciplines like downhill, which is getting from the top of the mountain to the bottom as fast as you can, and then full cross [00:03:40] where it’s for people like head to head. And then a little bit later, I, um, did World Enduro, [00:03:45] which is more endurance based, but you kind of pedal up the hill and then race down over a couple of days. So a [00:03:50] couple of days. Yeah. So it’s so it’s, um. It didn’t mix [00:03:55] too well with dentistry. Lots of injuries, uh, point to anywhere on my body. There’s nuts [00:04:00] and bolts and various things holding it together. I never got the, um, the sort of the, [00:04:05] the, you know, like the insurance insure your hands sort of thing because my premium was always too high [00:04:10] when you have to list your injuries prior. So, uh, waste of time on that one. [00:04:15] But, uh, yeah, it came from that realm, which [00:04:20] is, it’s something I learned early on is you [00:04:25] got to work hard wherever you want to do to, to, to get to the top to.

Payman Langroudi: To get anywhere.

Mike Gray: Well, I [00:04:30] think what to do well is a different one because you’ve only got to work a little bit harder than average because [00:04:35] you just got to work, you know, a little bit more than the average person, you’ll do well. But if you want to get to the top, like. [00:04:40]

Payman Langroudi: Obsession.

Mike Gray: Yeah, it’s that side of it. And so, but it’s [00:04:45] also an element of, okay, well, what am I going to do different to everyone else [00:04:50] that’s going to because everyone’s working hard, everyone’s putting in the hours, everyone’s putting in the training. So when [00:04:55] it’s racing, for example, you’re looking at your bike. What can I tinker with this? What can I change? Can I change my tires or pressures [00:05:00] or this or that or that side? And you’re always looking for that edge. And then, um, [00:05:05] and similarly music came after that. Um, and with [00:05:10] that, there’s, there’s 1,000,001 people doing it and you don’t have to do it better than everyone [00:05:15] else, but you’ve just got to do something a little bit different. And it could be that you do it slightly better or [00:05:20] you don’t have to, you know, sort of reinvent the wheel, you know, as Elvis or someone [00:05:25] like that. And so it’s just that sort of mindset [00:05:30] I put to the dentistry whenever I’m doing it, it’s like, okay, well, what, [00:05:35] how can I do this a little bit different? Everyone’s doing it this way. I’m told to do it that way. What can [00:05:40] I change? And my brain’s constantly going with lots of, for example, I, [00:05:45] I hate placing retraction cord And [00:05:50] I haven’t found a better way of doing it. Uh, and for anyone [00:05:55] says sort of retraction pace. No, it can be an adjunct, but you’re not replacing sort [00:06:00] of double cord and things like that, but just packing it and placing it is awful, I hate it, it’s a bit of my day. [00:06:05] I do not like. I haven’t come up with a better way to do it yet. So every time I sit there and resent it, but it’s constantly in [00:06:10] my head, it’s like, how can I change this? How can I do that? How can I make this a better experience, slicker, [00:06:15] more efficient, whatever. Yeah. And so I do that a lot with everything.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the answer to that? [00:06:20]

Mike Gray: Oh, the retraction cord. I don’t know yet. If you can tell me what’s an instrument?

Payman Langroudi: There’s an instrument. I stopped practising [00:06:25] 12 years ago, so maybe things have moved on. But there was an instrument that was like a half moon.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know the one I’m talking about? There’s lots of.

Mike Gray: Variations. Yeah. You get little cord packers with little teeth and [00:06:35] things like that. And it’s like, I don’t think I’m too cackhanded when I, you know, compare [00:06:40] my work to others. But when it comes to retraction cord fingers and thumbs and, and I think that’s [00:06:45] just the way it rolls. And, and so.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested, I’m quite interested in, you know, [00:06:50] the things, little tips and tricks that every dentist, every dentist [00:06:55] has. Now, you as a sort of innovator, as a teacher, you’ve got more tips [00:07:00] and tricks than, than the next man generally. But you know, if [00:07:05] someone does come up with an answer.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where do they go now? We’ve never [00:07:10] been at a better time.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now than than than before. I mean, I remember [00:07:15] 25 years ago, you know, it’s about who you bumped into by mistake was the [00:07:20] key thing.

Mike Gray: It’s there’s so much opportunity and in a way that can be difficult because [00:07:25] there’s just so much it’s, you know, similar to that whole music side of things before you [00:07:30] had to go out gig and this. Whereas now everything’s just online and, and sort of doing it that way. And yeah, [00:07:35] it’s things are so accessible because so I love that I love, um, that sort of [00:07:40] innovation side. And I suppose a snippet into my psyche is, is I’ve taught [00:07:45] myself CAD. Um, and that world of CAD combined with 3D printing, which [00:07:50] you do as well. Whatever you dream up, you can draw up and print within the same day. It’s incredible. [00:07:55] So, um, what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Your approach when you are about to dive into something? [00:08:00] Is your approach? Who should I call first? Or is your [00:08:05] approach what book I should read? What, what resource? What do you do? Do you Google it? What do you do? [00:08:10]

Mike Gray: My approach should be who do I, you know, who do I call in that I’m not very good. [00:08:15] I’m very much sort of run solo. And I’m not saying that’s the best way. That’s my personality type. [00:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: The best way is to call some people I know, but I’m the same as you. My my first instinct [00:08:25] isn’t.

Mike Gray: I’m getting better at that. I am getting better at that. Um, so it’s, [00:08:30] it’s usually it would be if I have an idea, um, I’ll just get obsessive [00:08:35] and I’ll sit there and I’ll literally.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? So you said, you said on another part, I [00:08:40] heard you say, uh, photography. Most people would go on a course. Yeah. I had [00:08:45] to learn it all inside out. So what do you do?

Mike Gray: Yeah, I’m changing that a little bit because [00:08:50] courses are great and I think I’m it’s weird. I’m almost starting my [00:08:55] career later because I didn’t put any effort into dentistry. I hated [00:09:00] it, like I said. So I graduated in 2009, did about four years of hospital jobs, [00:09:05] um, got my place in med school for max FACs. Um, uh, [00:09:10] and that was, you know, which we touched on earlier where [00:09:15] my, you know, my best friend took his life and he was one of those where I was like, oh, I’m [00:09:20] going to step back here. And I went back to racing bikes for a couple of years. Not necessarily [00:09:25] the right answer. Again, that whole obsessive side of things and burying yourself, you think [00:09:30] you’re being good, but actually you’re not giving yourself time to process anything.

Payman Langroudi: What was [00:09:35] the emotion that that he took his own life in dentistry. And so you were angry at dentistry [00:09:40] or something?

Mike Gray: Um, no, I think a lot of it was.

Payman Langroudi: Shook you out of what.

Mike Gray: You think. It’s [00:09:45] the guilt. I hadn’t seen him as much as I should have or. And it’s not, you know, I know the reality [00:09:50] is, is I was there for him as a mate and I was a buddy. And, you know, it was a good friend and that side of it. But Max [00:09:55] factor is all consuming. You know, he’s working 110 hour weeks. It was, you know, all [00:10:00] in and not being able to have that quality time. I was just kind of like, [00:10:05] ah, this, this is this sucks. This is rubbish. This is this is not life. And so I’m [00:10:10] just gonna, I’m gonna step back. I’m not doing this. And then and a lot of it was I was trying to cope but [00:10:15] wasn’t coping. I think it’s the honest answer. Um, and you know, nothing’s better than [00:10:20] world level sport. Just burying your emotions. Just train every day, [00:10:25] all day. Go and race here, there, everywhere. And you don’t actually have to sit with anything. [00:10:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you stop completely, completely.

Mike Gray: No, I was never fast enough to earn enough money. So [00:10:35] that was good for my dentistry because it kept my hand in so that I’ve got experience. [00:10:40] So even though I didn’t really learn anything. I was gaining experience over those years, so [00:10:45] I used to work part time, sort of living on a shoestring and like so with the racing, I’ll get bike sponsors, [00:10:50] you know, flights and hotels and stuff paid for that sort of thing, but nothing serious to, [00:10:55] to, to live properly.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that life. It’s a load [00:11:00] of training, I guess.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then, and then. But you’re travelling all over the world.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:11:05] Yeah. So those two years that I raced the World Series went everywhere from Chile to Spain [00:11:10] to Colorado to, you know, Italy just, just all over. And it’s, [00:11:15] it’s, it’s awesome in that a lot of the people you race with, certainly [00:11:20] the racing I was doing was against the clock. So when you’re against each other, but when you’re racing against [00:11:25] the clock, you don’t have any of that animosity, that sort of right. So your body’s so you’re in these [00:11:30] incredible places.

Payman Langroudi: With incredible.

Mike Gray: People. Yeah. And, and often it’s not touristy. [00:11:35] So you’re off the beaten track. And so you get to experience parts of the world that you just, you would just [00:11:40] never see, which I love to go back and do that. But at the time I was doing that, I [00:11:45] wasn’t present. There was nothing there. You were completely focussed on the event. And I get emotional thinking back [00:11:50] of all the crazy places and beautiful things I’ve seen, and I wasn’t actually soaking it in. Um. [00:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: But, and I guess there’s a, there’s a sort of reflection [00:12:00] of that on every aspect of your life, right? Yeah. It’s not only when you’re in Chile not paying [00:12:05] attention to Chile. Yeah, yeah. It’s when you’re at home not paying attention to your best friend or not your mum [00:12:10] or whatever it is.

Mike Gray: Yeah, yeah. And I’m a lot better now. Um, it’s, you know, [00:12:15] anyone that hasn’t seen a good therapist, like whether you feel you need it or not, definitely recommend. [00:12:20] Uh, it turns out I needed it. It’s funny actually, because I [00:12:25] would say I’m a high achiever. I’m used to, you know, just picking stuff up, sorting things out, flying through, [00:12:30] done early, whatever. And, uh, I was with my therapist for about two and a half years and, and he was like, [00:12:35] I think you’re ready to sort of fly the nest. And I’m like, yeah, yeah. You know, So there I was like, oh, how long do most [00:12:40] how long do you spend with most people? He’s like, oh, about six months. I was like, oh, so not high [00:12:45] achieving. They’re not high achieving there. But one of the best things I ever did just to bring [00:12:50] you in touch with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: And while we’re on that subject.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:12:55] was the thing that made you switch from I don’t need a therapist to, okay, let’s try this. [00:13:00]

Mike Gray: It was never I didn’t need it was, uh, a friend of mine [00:13:05] had gone. And so then, you know, it made me think, well, I couldn’t [00:13:10] give myself a good reason not to. And that was why I went, um, I genuinely I didn’t [00:13:15] think I really needed it, you know, at that side of it. But when I presented myself with argument of, [00:13:20] you know, give me a reason why you shouldn’t go, you can’t give [00:13:25] yourself a good reason.

Payman Langroudi: And so it tends to be that I don’t need to. Yeah. Like, for [00:13:30] instance, by the way, I’ve given the advice a hundred times. Go get a therapist. Yeah. But but [00:13:35] personally, I feel like I don’t need to. Yeah, it’s an interesting switch between. I don’t [00:13:40] need to to. Let me try this. Yeah. And what? Really? Now it’s playing on my mind so [00:13:45] much. Yeah. I’ve got a couple of members of staff who their thing is like, why would if you could afford it, why [00:13:50] wouldn’t you? Yeah. Like it’s a want, not a need kind of thing, you know? And that’s really getting [00:13:55] to me now. Yeah. Because I said.

Mike Gray: Well, you know, Payman you give yourself a good reason why you shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, I’ve [00:14:00] got so many good reasons I shouldn’t have you just.

Mike Gray: Like I’m not smart enough.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going back [00:14:05] to the back to the writing.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Who were the other people? Were [00:14:10] they like, uh, people from all over the world? Yeah. Yeah. Competitors.

Mike Gray: World champions, like, you know, everyone. So [00:14:15] I used to, uh, over the various different disciplines. I’d sort of sniff [00:14:20] around between 50th to 70th in the world, something like that. Um, which [00:14:25] was, like I said, it’s a hell of a cool level to reach, but unless you’re [00:14:30] sort of top 30, top 20, you’re not making any money. So you’re just doing it for.

Payman Langroudi: You might have been [00:14:35] number one in the UK. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Well. Number champion. Well yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:14:40] But number 40 in the world and 40 in the world doesn’t cut it as a career.

Mike Gray: No no no not in not [00:14:45] in the mountain biking. I think road cycling would be a bit different. So, uh, it’s [00:14:50] uh. Yeah, I went down the wrong discipline.

Payman Langroudi: And typically what would happen, you’d arrive in Chile?

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:14:55] is the next day, the competition or would you have to acclimatise or so.

Mike Gray: So for example, Chile, [00:15:00] I think there was something like, yeah, 14 hour flight. You pack everything up in your bag. And again, [00:15:05] if you’re you’re further up the roster, you’ve got big team around you. So they’re sorting all the [00:15:10] bikes and mechanics.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas you are you going by yourself?

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. Kicking around by me. It’s like I’m a [00:15:15] mechanic and that sort of thing. Got to get myself there, organise everything, feed myself. No masseurs, none of that. [00:15:20] So um, so yeah, I just packed my bike up in a bike bag. Carry what? Spares [00:15:25] I could, um, and just set out on the aeroplane and I think it’s like it [00:15:30] was a long way to Chile. It was two flights and the first one was like 14 hours. And [00:15:35] then when I got there, I just hired a car, put the seats down, throw everything in [00:15:40] the back. I got stopped by the police within like five minutes for doing something wrong or going the wrong [00:15:45] way. And then yeah, make way. I had like a two, [00:15:50] four hour drive. I can’t even remember. Um, South of Santiago, up to [00:15:55] the mountains. And you rock up, find your hotel, acclimatise yourself a bit, [00:16:00] and then you’re into sort of practice then, um, so you would [00:16:05] get a couple of days to you get to, for example, the world enduro, I think Chile, they might have [00:16:10] been like five race tracks. So but you have to pedal [00:16:15] up on your own steam. So you’re pedalling up five mountains. So it’s, it’s, and that’s just the [00:16:20] training. So you’d have enough time to practice each track once, but [00:16:25] they’re so long, you don’t really know where you’re going. So you just hitting stuff. Uh, the expression [00:16:30] is blind. You don’t really know what’s around the corner, which is hard when you’re trying to race fast. It’s [00:16:35] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Because you just imagine mountain.

Payman Langroudi: Biking is an adrenaline sport. Yeah, but it’s not adrenaline [00:16:40] for the first. Climbing up for a few days. Well, yeah.

Mike Gray: No, see, obviously when [00:16:45] you come down. So you pedal up and you wouldn’t get time pedalling up. You just had a time frame, so you had to get to the top with [00:16:50] it. So you couldn’t take it easy. So you had to pedal like you had to be fit to pedal up. And then, uh, you would [00:16:55] race down and that’s where you’re timed. And so you’re going as fast as you could. And the downs would be anywhere from about 5 minutes to [00:17:00] 25 minutes. And at the end of it, they add up all the times and he’s done everything quickest sort of wins there. So you’d have [00:17:05] a couple of days practice, but you’d be burning 8000 calories a day. So it was it [00:17:10] was tough just on the training.

Payman Langroudi: Side itself as an adrenaline junkie.

Mike Gray: Yeah, definitely. [00:17:15] Um, and I still sort of, and I listen to that voice [00:17:20] in my head a lot more now. That’s maturity. It’s like 1340 this year. And [00:17:25] so that voice that says that’s not a good idea. I pay attention to it, whereas [00:17:30] I didn’t before and obviously got myself in trouble with lots of injuries and doing stupid things, but [00:17:35] I do. I do still enjoy that side. For example, um, [00:17:40] week after next, I’m taking my motorbike to Germany to do the coldest motorbike rally [00:17:45] in the world. And why do I want to go and ride my motorbike and sleep in a tent in -12? [00:17:50] I don’t know, but well, I’ll tell you why. You know, I love motorbikes. [00:17:55] I love the experience. The group of friends I’m going with are great. They’re a load of old race buddies and [00:18:00] they’re the type that would make cyclists. Yeah, you know, some of them are. And [00:18:05] then and then, uh, uh, they’re the type of friends [00:18:10] that make a trip to the supermarket fun. Um, so normally every year we do [00:18:15] something called the Dragon rally, which is a motorbike rally up to North Wales. [00:18:20] And it’s supposed to be grim.

Mike Gray: So it’s usually first weekend of February and you go and camp [00:18:25] in a field in uh, in Snowdonia. And so this year we’ve moved it on to [00:18:30] this elephant rally, which is which is in Germany. But you’ve got to be sensible though, because again, [00:18:35] being younger and more stupid, first time I did the Dragon rally, you can only take whatever [00:18:40] you can fit on your bike. So it’s not much. And so had a little one man tent and I’m about sort of six [00:18:45] three. And this, this tent was tiny as like a sort of a saggy coffin. And, [00:18:50] uh, I remember getting a bit more drunk than I should have and ripped my tent getting [00:18:55] in, got one leg in my sleeping bag and passed out. And then I woke up [00:19:00] covered in snow. It was snowing, it was buried. I was borderline hypothermia. [00:19:05] And, uh, I managed to sort of climb in my sleeping bag and survived the night. But [00:19:10] after that I was like, yeah, it’s actually, you need to be a little bit sensible on this sort [00:19:15] of thing there. So, uh, I won’t be getting so inebriated in, in the Bavarian forest. [00:19:20]

Payman Langroudi: So was the thing that made you stop that you felt like you couldn’t pay for your life this way?

Mike Gray: Uh, [00:19:25] no. That was the music. Music. I got pissed off with that side. Um, so [00:19:30] I used to race all through from the age of ten competing, [00:19:35] you know, bikes, motorbikes, mainly mountain biking and, and all the way through uni up until final [00:19:40] year. Um, and then I knuckled down in final year, which, which because I never. [00:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s when the oral surgery kicked in.

Mike Gray: Well I, I never, I never knew how to [00:19:50] study. Um, in school, my parents never made me do my homework. Um, [00:19:55] and luckily I was smart so I could get away with it. I had about like 80% attendance for my A-levels, [00:20:00] which works out missing a day a week. And it was and uh, achievement. [00:20:05] Well, stupid. No, I wouldn’t encourage it, but, you know, I’d be. I want [00:20:10] to go race my bike or I’m tired from racing or I wasn’t skiving off just kicking, you know, kicking around the [00:20:15] bus stop. But, um, and then when I got to uni, it’s the first time I was like, oh shit, I [00:20:20] actually have to work to pass these exams.

Payman Langroudi: You southern Bristol.

Mike Gray: Yeah. So that was in Bristol. But [00:20:25] then, you know, the fatal error as far as my [00:20:30] motivation, there was, you know, being told that, oh, dentistry is just a pass or [00:20:35] a fail. So I was like, okay, what’s the minimum amount of work I need to do to get by that?

Payman Langroudi: I made [00:20:40] that mistake.

Mike Gray: Oh, dude. So it was a bit stressful though. So I sailed too close to the wind [00:20:45] for a couple of years. I was, I was just scraping.

Payman Langroudi: Through out like that. But, but it’s, it’s a mistake [00:20:50] inasmuch as you put it in your own head that that’s all the only two outcomes are pass and fail. [00:20:55] Yeah. Which by the way, I failed. Yeah, but but but the outcomes are so different. I see some students [00:21:00] now. I don’t know if you come across students now. Yeah. My goodness man. You know like going on [00:21:05] hands on courses. Yeah. There were a few students. There’s 2 or 3 students I can think of who [00:21:10] are more connected in the dental world than me. Yeah. Been in it for 25 years. Some [00:21:15] dude sitting in the third year of dental school connected. Yeah. You know, it’s. [00:21:20] I guess it’s the internet again, right? It’s allowing that sort of thing to happen. [00:21:25]

Mike Gray: Yeah. It makes us. That’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Been. But you know that kid when he comes out, you know he’s going to be [00:21:30] much more ready to go than I was. Yeah.

Mike Gray: I had no idea I was I was massively naive [00:21:35] to the world and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much oral surgery did you do [00:21:40] before you started thinking maxfax.

Mike Gray: Uh, so I did a GP t, which [00:21:45] was two years. So did my first year dentistry and I was in a sleepy town in Swanage [00:21:50] on the south coast. So did a lot of dentures. And I’m like, oof, dentistry is not for me. And then [00:21:55] I was attached then to Poole Hospital, which was known as the Republic of Poole. Um, [00:22:00] most incredible job I ever had. Um, and, uh, [00:22:05] that’s where I did the oral surgery side. And then I did a four year maxfax [00:22:10] after that. And then I stayed in the hospitals then for sort of 3 to 4 years. And I [00:22:15] went to, um, I did a restorative job in Cardiff, but then I used to locum, um, [00:22:20] uh, night smacks facts, which again is stupid. Working 24 hours.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:22:25] did that.

Mike Gray: Job. Yeah, yeah. In the heat. In the heat.

Payman Langroudi: I did cry Cardiff Infirmary [00:22:30] was the. Yeah. The nightmare of. But, you know, some people thrive like it sounds like you thrived. [00:22:35] Yeah, yeah. Adrenaline junkie guy. Yeah, I hated it. Hated it, hated you. I [00:22:40] loved I still think it was good for me. Yeah, yeah. It was definitely good for me because nothing in life [00:22:45] has come close to.

Mike Gray: Oh, no. I think it should.

Payman Langroudi: Be compulsory that the.

Mike Gray: Student should do a year’s max [00:22:50] fax.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. Maybe.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or nothing in life has come anywhere near as challenging as [00:22:55] being this just qualified dentist looking after people who had like pint glasses smashed [00:23:00] in their face, or some poor person who’s got terminal cancer and they’re doing [00:23:05] a gigantic operation on them. And you’re the doctor, the junior.

Mike Gray: It’s crazy. My [00:23:10] first patient on my first day was, well, they did three days later. Yeah. [00:23:15] And it was like Ludwig’s angina in a patient with severe dementia. [00:23:20] And what is it? What am I supposed to do? It was a yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember [00:23:25] the nurse on the ward telling me, yeah, now you’ve got to, you know, pull the catheter out. I was like, [00:23:30] what? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gray: I didn’t sign up for this. The trick with that is don’t make eye [00:23:35] contact. It’s just you just go about it like business. Um, so [00:23:40] yeah, so I did that.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you, how good did you get at what? Eventually by the end of this, could [00:23:45] you, I don’t know, obviously take out wisdom teeth. Could you do things like, [00:23:50] uh, you know, Lefort operations.

Mike Gray: Uh, no, I couldn’t do, I did, I did a lot of mandibles, [00:23:55] did a lot of tracheostomies, um, zygomas that side. Um, [00:24:00] so, and most of that stemmed from my first couple of years down in pool, [00:24:05] because if anybody wants good math facts experience, go to a small, busy hospital [00:24:10] and you’ll get all the hands on it, preferably somewhere where there’s no plastics. So they don’t take any of that. [00:24:15] And so I put the time in though, to impress. Like, you know, the more you put in, the more [00:24:20] you get out and that sort of role. So like I said, I was there 12 hours a day minimum. Um, but because I [00:24:25] was put in that time in the consultants were, you know, well, crack on because I remember there was [00:24:30] a consultant, Sajjad Walji and, uh, we do a surgical tracheostomy [00:24:35] and, uh, he said, you watch one, you do one. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Next [00:24:40] one came along. I was like, okay. And I was like, are you kidding? So I [00:24:45] had to do the surgical tracheostomy. I’m two years out of dental school. Um, and it’s [00:24:50] terrifying. You cut a little window in the trachea and they’re like, okay, you’ve got two minutes to get that tube in. Otherwise they’re dead. And [00:24:55] you’re just like, but this is incredible passage.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Crazy.

Mike Gray: So [00:25:00] because I got a lot of hands on, the more you do, the more people will depend on [00:25:05] you and appreciate you sort of doing those bits. And so yeah, a lot of that surgical, [00:25:10] I did a lot of skins down in Poole as well, which was great for.

Payman Langroudi: Basal cell carcinoma.

Mike Gray: Yeah. Bccssx, [00:25:15] that sort of thing. And rotational flaps. Pedicle flaps.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re now [00:25:20] very comfortable with surgical in every sense. Did you put implants in now?

Mike Gray: Uh, I [00:25:25] do implants now. Yeah, yeah, I was late to that one though. Um, I, like I said, I wasn’t, I [00:25:30] wasn’t trying to move my career along then I was trying to do everything but be a dentist because like I said, got to [00:25:35] had my place in med school, three year Manchester. Um, and [00:25:40] yeah, my buddy passed away. I’m like, oh, screw this, like this, you know? And the other [00:25:45] thing is I could see the NHS going down the pan, which is sad. It’s really makes me really sad. Such a beautiful [00:25:50] system. Yeah. Care free at the point of delivery. But if it’s not working, [00:25:55] what does it matter if it doesn’t what it costs, you know? Um, and [00:26:00] so took that time out. I was like, I’m gonna race bikes again. So race bikes. [00:26:05] Um, yeah, like I made it as a semi career, [00:26:10] but I was, you’re never going to set yourself up on that. So then interestingly, in the max [00:26:15] facts, it probably was a coping mechanism. I started picking up guitar and just writing songs. [00:26:20]

Payman Langroudi: Before you move on to the music, what was the hairiest thing that happened [00:26:25] in that Max factor or some of the hairy things that happened to you? [00:26:30]

Mike Gray: We used to in Birmingham, it’s level two trauma centre. So at [00:26:35] time, you know, when I was there, you were getting everything from like Afghanistan and that. So people were stepping on, [00:26:40] you know, explosives in that side. And because often somebody steps on an [00:26:45] IED, obviously arms and legs get blown off, but everything comes and [00:26:50] hits the chin and jaw and all that side. And it’s the one I [00:26:55] used to find it difficult. Whenever you actually connected with reality, it was very easy in [00:27:00] Max factor to separate yourself of that a patient, um, or you know, it’s just parts [00:27:05] you’re, you see them unconscious. You don’t even build a relationship in the hospital. You just come in and [00:27:10] we’re going to operate. You don’t even talk to them, somebody else is whatever. And you just in theatre put them together, usually [00:27:15] unconscious when you’re finished. But the odd time when you do see him on the ward [00:27:20] afterwards and you realise, because the one that hit home for me was a young girl, 17 or [00:27:25] 18 in a in a RTA, and it didn’t even think, you know, you laughing, [00:27:30] joking around in theatres, sorting stuff, and then came by to you afterwards on the ward rounds and then a [00:27:35] Mother’s Day sort of like, oh, you don’t deserve this. And that’s give me goosebumps now thinking of it. And like, actually [00:27:40] there’s some really nasty stuff that you sort of see and humanity is can [00:27:45] be disgusting, which you see in max facts as well, because anyone fighting and doing horrible things [00:27:50] to one another usually involves injuries of the face and that side. So it’s a pretty [00:27:55] dark topic in that side, but incredible then as well what you can do and sort [00:28:00] that out. Um, but oh yeah. Hairy things. Yeah. I mean [00:28:05] saw everything from that. I did some really stupid things as well. I think you chat about mistakes afterwards.

Payman Langroudi: So Should [00:28:10] we go there now?

Mike Gray: I mean, it’s so dentally related. You [00:28:15] get called from A&E, docs come down. Somebody lost their [00:28:20] teeth. Um, and typically dentists, we look down on those as doctors [00:28:25] whenever it comes to the mouth. Yeah. I think that’s our one saving. Yeah. We got this. Yeah. You [00:28:30] know nothing you know. Yeah. And, uh, so I had a phone and it’s like, oh, you know, I’ve had a go at putting the [00:28:35] teeth back in, but can you just come and come and check? And I’m like, oh, what’s he gone and done, you know? So [00:28:40] I got down there and this gentleman sat there and, uh, he must have had a bit of perio because [00:28:45] you’d teeth like a burnt down fence, bless him. And, and I looked at it and I’m like, oh, what [00:28:50] have you done here? So I got his two front teeth and silly buggers gone and put them in the wrong way round. [00:28:55] So I swapped him round, put him back in the socket, stepped back and said to his wife, [00:29:00] I was like, you know, how’s that looking? We’re both sort of cocking her head and she’s like. And [00:29:05] then I’m like, oh no. So I leant back over him so that he [00:29:10] couldn’t see, and quickly swapped the teeth back around to how the doctor [00:29:15] had done it. And then I stepped back and I was like, how about that? And she’s like, yeah, yeah, that’s him. And I [00:29:20] learned a valuable lesson that day. You know, as far as ego and that side, the only doctor was [00:29:25] spot on and everything, right? And me as a professional came down, took the teeth back out, put them in the [00:29:30] wrong way round and yeah, got it all wrong. I like that. So, uh, learned a valuable [00:29:35] lesson that day.

Mike Gray: Another one was a poor kid. Um, he was a cleft patient, [00:29:40] um, of the, of the hospital and, uh, he’d come into A&E, fallen off his bike [00:29:45] or something, landed on his chin and he was sitting there and I’m like, this guy’s just been being a wimp. Like, it’s like he’s [00:29:50] blessing him. He’s had all his surgery with cleft and a lot of, you know, people who have been through in the mill [00:29:55] hospital environments are difficult. And so I’m like, uh, you know, and he [00:30:00] sat there and he’s making a fuss and he’s, uh, not really closing his jaw or anything like that. Took [00:30:05] an opt. Everything’s fine. No fractures, nothing. And [00:30:10] so I’m trying to send this kid home. I’m like, look, you need to toughen up. You just bruised your TMJ, that [00:30:15] side of it. And, uh, luckily there was a switched on A&E consultant who said, kids [00:30:20] in too much pain. It’s not just a bruise. And I’m like, yeah, it is. What do you know? You know, I’m the I’m the facial expert [00:30:25] here. And, uh, but so he overruled me and admitted him. And luckily my [00:30:30] reg came round. Um, this kid had managed to fracture his condyles [00:30:35] up through his mastoid bone into his brain. His condyles were sitting in [00:30:40] his brain. Wow. And that’s why he couldn’t close his jaw because they were stuck in there, but in a freakish [00:30:45] way. He’d done it without fracturing the condyles because you’d much more likely to fracture the condyles. [00:30:50] And I just felt awful. I’m busy there. I’m like, telling this kid to sort [00:30:55] of man up. Um, dude, you said a little. Meanwhile, his jaws sat in his brain [00:31:00] and, uh, so again, learnt a hell of a lesson then, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: What was the incident [00:31:05] that caused that?

Mike Gray: Landed on his chin and fell off like fell over, fell off his bike, landed on his chin and [00:31:10] must have just got everything just right and happened.

Payman Langroudi: To be a cleft patient. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And [00:31:15] that’s and so it’s me just jumping to conclusions thinking I know more than I do.

Payman Langroudi: And so what [00:31:20] happened there?

Mike Gray: They planned a joint case with Maxfax neuro because they’re like, oh, we got to do [00:31:25] it. And the the anaesthetist anaesthetised him, intubated him, popped it out. And they’re like, oh, [00:31:30] job done. So left it there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, oh [00:31:35] my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness. That’s the juiciest one we’ve had on the podcast ever.

Mike Gray: I know, but.

Payman Langroudi: They’re going. [00:31:40]

Mike Gray: About like lethal bliss. And I, like I said, I feel awful even thinking about it now. Oh, another [00:31:45] one. Let’s just do Maxfax. And you have all these stories. Cardiff. Cardiff. [00:31:50] I can give you one. Yeah. Go on. Um, again, so I worked restorative [00:31:55] during the day, which to be honest, you need to work two jobs if you’re doing restorative. Chill [00:32:00] chill af you stroll up at nine, you see about one patient. [00:32:05] Then you maybe have one patient in the afternoon and then you’re done early. And [00:32:10] so I used yeah, locum. Then Max faxed through the night and maybe [00:32:15] not a good idea being tired. Um, but I had a gentleman come in and he had like a sebaceous cyst [00:32:20] right in the middle of his forehead that got infected. Big throbbing, full of pus, red, angry [00:32:25] and being tired. I went to give him like a supraorbital block, but [00:32:30] must have gone way too low and actually went into his eye socket a bit, not hitting eyeballs or anything, [00:32:35] but I caused something to bleed so I just swelled up shut. So I’m like, oh great.

Mike Gray: So I’m having to do IOPs [00:32:40] and monitor that. So I’m already like, Mike, what have you done? And then, uh, [00:32:45] so eventually then after panicking about swelling, getting his eye swelling [00:32:50] up shut, then I’m on to incise and drain, uh, this sort of infected cyst [00:32:55] on his forehead. And I didn’t make a big enough incision. So I’m panicking about [00:33:00] this. I didn’t make a business. So I make an incision and I’m trying to get the pus out, and it was just too much pressure. [00:33:05] And then suddenly you know where this is going. Oh, in my face, pus exploded [00:33:10] in my face. And you’re trying to be professional. And this guy sat there. I’ve already balled up and he’s thinking, [00:33:15] who the hell is this cowboy that I’ve got this. You know, I don’t look old now. I looked even younger then, and, [00:33:20] uh. And I’m there just trying not to retch. Trying not to scream. Try not to run out [00:33:25] this professional where I sort of go around his back and then just, like, are trying to get. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Clean myself up.

Mike Gray: Oh, goodness. So yeah, I’d say that’s a that’s a terrible one [00:33:35] as well. So I’ll stop with that hat trick before.

Payman Langroudi: No they’re good. I enjoyed [00:33:40] those.

Mike Gray: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then music.

Mike Gray: Music. Yeah. So [00:33:45] that yeah. I think a coping thing with the Max factor was I just pick up a guitar and [00:33:50] play. And I used to play a lot of slide blues and that side of things.

Payman Langroudi: You could already play guitar.

Mike Gray: Yeah, I started [00:33:55] learning when I was about 13. I’m nothing incredible, but I get by And [00:34:00] I just started playing and writing songs, you know, later in life, really [00:34:05] the most musicians because I was 25, 26 at that point. [00:34:10] Um, and that’s where it started. And [00:34:15] then I went and had these couple of years of letting my hair down racing. And over [00:34:20] those couple of years, the music, it got to a point where I’m like, maybe I’ve got something. [00:34:25] And again, it was like, well, unless you [00:34:30] try, you’ll never know unless you know to put your money where your mouth is sort [00:34:35] of thing. So I dug into my pocket, asked around my old. And a good [00:34:40] friend of mine was in a band before. So I’m like producer, you know, give me a good [00:34:45] producer, whatever. So he put me on to this guy, Gethyn Pearson. And um, yeah, [00:34:50] sent him a demo and a lot of, you know, a lot of producers, if they don’t like it, they won’t take it on, you know, and so [00:34:55] he liked what he heard and because he where he was going. And so yeah, I went to a cool [00:35:00] studio, um, just for two days.

Mike Gray: Two songs. Oh, music industry’s wild [00:35:05] for hours as well. You can see there’s so many drugs involved and like, so you’d start, you’d [00:35:10] start in the morning and you’d stop when it’s done. Um, so often you’d go to like 2 a.m. that sort [00:35:15] of thing, which I don’t like. I don’t think it’s the best way to be productive, but that’s kind of the culture. So [00:35:20] we went in the studio, I did two days, two songs, Stupid Hours, and [00:35:25] came out with these two songs. And uh, it blew my mind where you could take it because I was kind of like [00:35:30] a one man band setup when it was not everyone was doing it. I had my nans suitcase [00:35:35] that I’d turned into a drum, but I put little drum triggers in there so you could make it sound like whatever you wanted. And [00:35:40] I had a tambourine, but drum triggers and stuff on that, it’s a massive sound. Guitar went to three different amps, [00:35:45] three different sounds, just huge sounds. And, uh, so [00:35:50] yeah, I did, uh, did, um.

Payman Langroudi: But at the end of that sort of session [00:35:55] in a, in a The studio is the talent of the producer is a big deal, right?

Mike Gray: Oh, [00:36:00] massive. That makes it. You got to be able to write the song. You got to be able to do bits. But the producer has [00:36:05] a big part of it as well. I mean, they take a big cut like that, you get screwed [00:36:10] left, right and centre as an artist in the music world. And so for example, [00:36:15] um, a producer would take uh, four points, [00:36:20] so they call it four points, 4%. So that’s what that is. Yeah. So 4%. Um, [00:36:25] and you think, oh, 4%.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nothing of what of turnover.

Mike Gray: Well, so royalty [00:36:30] wise, then on average, let’s say even if you’re a successful artist, [00:36:35] um, but certainly new artists, you’ll get about sort of roughly 12% [00:36:40] royalties. Yeah, yeah. So the rest goes to labels, everything else [00:36:45] and that side and that that four points comes [00:36:50] out of your cut. So it’s more like 40% of what you.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Mike Gray: You know, [00:36:55] what you’re taking in is so that four out of that 12 leaves you with, uh, you [00:37:00] know, eight there. So it’s yeah, sorry, I got an A in maths and maths [00:37:05] goes in dentistry. Simple addition subtraction.

Payman Langroudi: But of your brains.

Mike Gray: Yeah. No [00:37:10] binomial expansion no more, you know. Um so.

Payman Langroudi: So so then now you had a couple [00:37:15] of songs. How does that progress on to.

Mike Gray: So from that one, [00:37:20] these songs, um, it just music [00:37:25] industry, it’s, it’s all who, you know, um, and it’s, it’s such an incestuous [00:37:30] world as well. And just off the back of that, these songs started circulating amongst different people [00:37:35] and that, and before you know it, I got a manager. Um, and that was a really cool [00:37:40] experience because he, um, uh, he owned like a [00:37:45] promotions company. So just run loads of music nights and loads of music venues [00:37:50] across the UK. So I went straight from a nobody. So he picked me up as [00:37:55] a manager back in, recorded some more bits, and then he just put me on stage with bands like Fun [00:38:00] Criminals and Alabama three and touring with them just off the back of Nothing [00:38:05] to Play into thousands of people. Um, which was incredible. Baptism of fire, but [00:38:10] a hell of an experience. Um, and so did.

Payman Langroudi: It, like standing on [00:38:15] a stage with thousands of people. The bigger the stage, as you would imagine. Yeah. [00:38:20] It’s.

Mike Gray: It’s the bigger the stage, the easier it is.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:38:25] you can’t make out faces.

Mike Gray: You can’t see anyone, you can’t see anything. You’ve got lights in your face, a huge audience [00:38:30] out there. So it’s they’re the hardest gigs I ever played. Were the empty [00:38:35] pubs when no one’s listening because you can. You can hear every conversation, [00:38:40] see everyone, see that absolutely nobody.

Payman Langroudi: Forming as a comedian or something [00:38:45] like that.

Mike Gray: Is the hardest because it’s very real right in front of you. Whereas [00:38:50] big stage, It’s almost very impersonal.

Payman Langroudi: But you know how in dentistry, like we qualify, [00:38:55] we, you know, start out doing a few procedures, mess it up. Yeah. Not that great [00:39:00] at communication. And then you learn the things, the important sort of cornerstones. What, [00:39:05] what’s the equivalent of that in, in that world? I mean, okay, you’re in a pub playing in front [00:39:10] of people who aren’t listening, but you get better at it. Did you did you feel like you were improving?

Mike Gray: I, [00:39:15] um, I, I’m still very envious of those people who [00:39:20] can go out and they’ve done that sort of pub circuit and they’ve put in way more hours [00:39:25] than me because I skipped, I skipped so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah. It’s [00:39:30] like they, they, I skipped so much of it because I, I got lucky with my manager [00:39:35] owning all these cool venues. And so rather than having to hustle with the little gigs, I [00:39:40] went straight into these, these big gigs. And so I didn’t, I didn’t earn it. I didn’t put my hours in [00:39:45] of people throwing shit and asking stupid requests and booing or whatever, Or not listening [00:39:50] or crashing into the sea.

Payman Langroudi: Pinch yourself a little bit in that moment, right?

Mike Gray: Yeah. [00:39:55] But again, now I look back far more appreciative of the time. [00:40:00] Just a million miles an hour, not taking it in as well as I could.

Payman Langroudi: Stopping and smelling the [00:40:05] roses.

Mike Gray: Yeah, absolutely. And just not not taking that time to be because I’d [00:40:10] rolled on from, you know, terrible things to, to racing bikes straight into music. [00:40:15] Suddenly that took off like as a whirlwind. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And how far did you [00:40:20] go with the music?

Mike Gray: So I had one sort of manager and starting getting people [00:40:25] in there and that sort of petered out. And um, so everything [00:40:30] that I had sort of was all taken down because music industry is very much about control [00:40:35] of who sees what. And that’s even within the industry. They love to play.

Payman Langroudi: They sort of FOMO [00:40:40] like, um, love to play.

Mike Gray: Games with one another.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: It’s like, oh, I’ve got this artist and like, they’ll drip [00:40:45] feed what they want to different people knowing how it’s going to spike their interest. Sort of thing. [00:40:50] Um, and so everything was taken down. And so again, starting from nothing. [00:40:55] I’m like, oh, this is rubbish. So um, same thing again a bit more cash. I’m [00:41:00] like, alright, cool. I’m going to record another couple of songs. And then I started releasing on my own and off [00:41:05] the back of releasing, uh, I only just put out two tracks of my [00:41:10] own. Um, because luckily I smart thing is, I own all the rights to it. Not so smart because [00:41:15] it’s just sat on a hard drive now doing nothing. So I own all of nothing at the minute. [00:41:20] Um, but I got, yeah, [00:41:25] I had a couple of people reach out basically to management people. There was one based in London, [00:41:30] so one was um, a guy, uh, I can’t remember his name now. [00:41:35] Um, but Jax Jones, I don’t know if he’s a sort of a sort of a sort [00:41:40] of a dance music type, um, sort of big deal is his manager.

Mike Gray: Um, and so he [00:41:45] sort of reached out And then I had another guy from LA and within a short space of time, like I had people coming [00:41:50] to my house sort of wanting to represent from a management side. Um, and [00:41:55] I ended up going with, uh, sort of London based and, [00:42:00] uh, so that happened that way. And so then I’ve [00:42:05] got a manager and they help build a team. So then you’ve got a promoter and that side and I [00:42:10] had some cool experiences. But again, this is the bit I found difficult with music in [00:42:15] that I love about dentistry now because I hated dentistry. Love it. Now, um, in [00:42:20] that again, music or anything as we’re talking about to do. Well, you got to work hard. Um, there’s [00:42:25] no substitute in music. You’ve got to work hard and have a bit of luck. And it went [00:42:30] the other way for me. So for example, I had a guy called Mike Smith come to my house [00:42:35] in Wales and he is at the time he was head of Universal Publishing. [00:42:40]

Payman Langroudi: So he came to a house in.

Mike Gray: Wales, in Wales.

Payman Langroudi: So he kind of wanted to blow your [00:42:45] socks off. So this was that.

Mike Gray: Whole sort of romanticising my managing you to sort of he, [00:42:50] he was a romantic at heart to tap into that. And at a time I was living in like a 500 year old [00:42:55] stone house in the depths of Wales. You come across a little bridge over a river and just that [00:43:00] whole story. And so, yeah, he came, he came over from London and, and he signed everyone from like, [00:43:05] Coldplay to George Ezra.

Payman Langroudi: He’d be like a major guy industry.

Mike Gray: He was [00:43:10] the head of Universal Publishing. It was as big as you get. Like in the UK. Massive came to my house [00:43:15] and I played a small set for him in my living room. So I had like this huge PA system, which I bought so I could [00:43:20] just gig myself. And I played this set for just him and my manager and he’s like, cool. [00:43:25] Yeah, you got something, you can do it this way, or you can get involved with us and we do it this and [00:43:30] that side. So I’m like, oh, sign me up. Cool. And sadly, his, his wife, [00:43:35] um, about a week later was diagnosed with cancer. Um, it was horrible story. And you know, [00:43:40] that that trumps my music. Um, but that was that door that opened. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: He disappeared.

Mike Gray: He disappeared. And again, music’s very much you’re attached to the individual. [00:43:50] So it’s not like the company would be like, oh, yeah, come on, we take you on now. No. You’re done. Like [00:43:55] you get signed to a label via by an A&R and they get fired or change. [00:44:00] That’s you done. You’re done. So there was a lot of bad.

Payman Langroudi: Luck came out of your [00:44:05] career at that point.

Mike Gray: Uh, no, I mean, that was things kept moving. Covid, Covid absolutely [00:44:10] put the nail in the coffin for me with music. So it was building ahead, building a team around me. [00:44:15] I had Peppa, Peppa Pig, uh, funding me. Peppa [00:44:20] pig was bankrolling me. So, um, e1 um, uh, [00:44:25] they’re big earners. Peppa Pig, obviously they do lots of [00:44:30] films and that, um, and they were expanding into music. Uh, and I think their big band they had [00:44:35] was like Lumineers. And so I was basically signed up to them. Um, which [00:44:40] is cool because you go, you go to the HQ and they’ve got a little cinema downstairs, and there’s [00:44:45] just Peppa Pig all over the wall and that sort of thing. And, uh. So, uh, yeah, [00:44:50] Peppa Pig was bankrolling me, and, uh, I, yeah, [00:44:55] had a good year lined up for 2020. So I was playing, [00:45:00] uh, some big festivals like Boomtown Boardmasters. So I was going to be [00:45:05] same stage of Kings. Leon Boardmasters uh.

Payman Langroudi: Do they pay?

Mike Gray: Ah, [00:45:10] nothing like. So I’ll be first on when everyone’s sleeping. And I think my [00:45:15] pot for a summer of festivals was up to about 7 or 8 grand if I played them. Um, [00:45:20] you know, you’re not going to sniff at it, but it’s not, you’re not going to live on that.

Payman Langroudi: Do you at least [00:45:25] like have an amazing time because you’re backstage or whatever? Oh, I.

Mike Gray: Know loads of.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Cool, cool stuff with that. [00:45:30] And, and, uh, but 2020, I had that lined up and then Covid came along. Uh, [00:45:35] and then that was music off.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Just as we talked about the sort of the craziest oral [00:45:40] surgery stories. Yeah. What was the craziest music story you had?

Mike Gray: To be.

Payman Langroudi: Honest.

Mike Gray: It’s [00:45:45] the music is, you know, I’ve got a group of buddies now. I’m into my old [00:45:50] motorbikes. My my old Harleys are choppers and of course, the vaccine. And so I’ve got [00:45:55] a couple old Harleys. I’ve got like 1976, which is I’ve painted like leopard print and built up from [00:46:00] various bits and pieces. And then I’ve got another old Shovelhead 1979 and the [00:46:05] boys are hanging around with for that. No one comes close. I don’t [00:46:10] try and compete along to pieces, but it’s one of those like, you just step back and let him go. [00:46:15] Um, so I would say the music industry is tame compared to those boys.

Payman Langroudi: Really are just. [00:46:20]

Mike Gray: Next level. But it’s, you know, they’re all fantastic, you know, hearts [00:46:25] and that side, but a wild, a wild bunch. But um so music. [00:46:30] Yeah, I didn’t, I was, I wasn’t your typical sort of artist [00:46:35] in that I, I suppose at this point I’m trying. I’m realising that. [00:46:40] Come on, you got to start enjoying this and that. And so again, you know, [00:46:45] I was I was touring with Alabama three and I don’t know um they [00:46:50] famously made a mistake in music is like always take, always play [00:46:55] the long game, take royalties. Um, that side of it. Don’t, don’t go for the cash. Um, [00:47:00] and they um, were approached for the [00:47:05] soundtrack for the Sopranos. Right. And they were offered 80 grand [00:47:10] for the song or royalties and they took the 80 K um, if [00:47:15] they’d taken royalties.

Payman Langroudi: Millions o Sopranos wasn’t famous at that wasn’t famous.

Mike Gray: So in the, [00:47:20] you know, before it’s even a thing. Yeah. Um, and, and so I was, [00:47:25] I was touring with them and I, it felt quite sad because I [00:47:30] started the tour with them and they all came out sort of bright eyed, [00:47:35] bushy tailed. Um, and then, but then you [00:47:40] get the drugs and things like that. And the next day they’re [00:47:45] all like zombies and they’re zombies until 5 p.m. when the next [00:47:50] load of drugs arrives. And that’s getting snorted off the manager’s desk and hell of a show. And they put it on, [00:47:55] which I think in music, a lot of people become dependent on that. It’s like, I can’t perform unless I’m doing [00:48:00] this because otherwise I’m just boring. I haven’t got that side of it. And you know, by the end of the [00:48:05] tour, it’s the same clothes that I started in, and no one’s actually seen any of these [00:48:10] cities because they’ve been sleeping in the tour bus, uh, sleeping off, raving all night. Um, [00:48:15] and yeah, it wasn’t that, so I didn’t fit in in that because, you know, in [00:48:20] my dressing room, it’s like, oh, you know, would you want there just like some tea bags, please? You know, that’d [00:48:25] be me set, you know? And so, uh, yeah, so I was pretty boring in that respect.

Mike Gray: Um, [00:48:30] and so no sort of crazy or too two wild stories. I’ve played some wild gigs, [00:48:35] um, the wildest though being for I won’t name specifics, [00:48:40] but it’s basically the SAS. There was a bunch from about to be shipped out somewhere somewhere [00:48:45] awful. Couldn’t tell me because before I showed up they’re like, oh, can you play this? And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, [00:48:50] sure. And they’re like, okay, right. No, no photographs. I’m like, all right. Yeah, no, don’t tag anything on social media. [00:48:55] Like nothing. I’m like, all right. And then I got there. I had no idea who the audience was. [00:49:00] And like I said, it was just 80, like bloodthirsty, like trained [00:49:05] killers and ah, get some beer in them. Oh my goodness, it’s [00:49:10] wild. There was fighting going off. There was all sorts like trying to play things being thrown. It [00:49:15] was just absolute carnage because I think you’ve got to have something a little bit sort [00:49:20] of screw loose for SAS. Yeah. And that side.

Payman Langroudi: So and all along that bit [00:49:25] of your journey, you were still being a dentist here and there. Yeah. Paying your bills.

Mike Gray: Part time, you know, [00:49:30] two days a week, something like that. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: So one night. One night you’re playing in front of the SAS. [00:49:35] Next minute you’re doing a scale and polish. Yeah yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah [00:49:40] yeah. Nhs.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God.

Mike Gray: Save my time. Which was good. You know it got the numbers in. You [00:49:45] know I wouldn’t take it back. I think it’s a different story now. Like before people had approached me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:49:50] take issue with that question. Right. Yeah. Because people say yeah take do your three years on the Nash and get your numbers in. [00:49:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in three years doing anything. Yeah. You would have progressed somewhat, [00:50:00] just like three years doing max facts. Yeah. You progressed. Yeah. Three years doing private. [00:50:05] You would progress three years doing anything. You would have progressed. So, so this notion that Nash [00:50:10] is the place to go to progress, I just think every other country in the world, [00:50:15] they don’t do that. Right.

Mike Gray: So and this is I would have disagreed with you ten years [00:50:20] ago, fully agree with you now because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s changed in the last ten years to that. That’s [00:50:25] the that’s what you’re saying. Yeah.

Mike Gray: You don’t get to do anything now. They’re not getting hands on like before I [00:50:30] was doing crowns, bridges, dentures, extractions. Endo, you did the lot. And [00:50:35] so, you know, you got all those numbers. Now it’s they’re not getting [00:50:40] that hands on. So actually.

Payman Langroudi: Why aren’t they. Because the system doesn’t make [00:50:45] sense.

Mike Gray: Just the contract and that now and everything is now. It’s just okay. Yeah. I [00:50:50] get you in give you an exam, emergency treatment, but anything else is going to have to wait or [00:50:55] just refer it on or bounce it on. It’s just so restrictive now. So no, I couldn’t agree with you more now [00:51:00] it’s a shame. And it’s but so yeah, I was part time, [00:51:05] so I never earned any money as well. It’s always that thing. Oh, dentists, you’re rich. And I was, [00:51:10] I was a dentist who was not rich because I didn’t get the money racing bikes. I just earned [00:51:15] enough to pay for my food and my accommodation. Um, music was the same. And, [00:51:20] and, uh, and so yeah, I’d be, yeah, gigging and I used to use work [00:51:25] to recover from the weekends, which I again now. So maybe it’s an age thing. [00:51:30] I’m 40. I need my weekends to recover from work. Yeah. I need to just just chill out and catch up. Otherwise I’m [00:51:35] in trouble. Whereas it was, I would hit Monday absolutely wiped. [00:51:40] So I would sit there and just go through, do what I needed to do and recharge through [00:51:45] my days working and then back out again. Um, and yeah, very different.

Payman Langroudi: How did this turn [00:51:50] into the expert that I see on social media? [00:51:55]

Mike Gray: Oh, luck. No. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:52:00] mean, you know, the, the, the max factor with the surgical skills. Yeah. But the [00:52:05] restorative side.

Mike Gray: Are I was awful. It’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you learn? What did.

Mike Gray: You learn? So [00:52:10] Covid came along, put a nail in the coffin the music and going back to that, [00:52:15] working hard versus luck. I was sick of working [00:52:20] really hard and getting nothing. Uh, and and maybe I could try again or whatever. [00:52:25] But dentistry is beautiful. Like the harder you work, the more you get. [00:52:30] It’s a straight graph. It’s fantastic. And that’s that’s not to be sniffed at. [00:52:35] And you see loads of people doing these incredible things. And. But it’s only a very small percent. The [00:52:40] vast majority of people who aren’t near the top, like, for example, with the biking where I was kicking outside the top [00:52:45] 30. Um, yeah, it’s a hard life.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re the number 40 dentist [00:52:50] in the world, you’re on fire, right? Oh, unreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gray: 40 dentists in the [00:52:55] UK. Like it’s and it’s just a beautiful thing. You work hard, you get paid more or you progress or you’re there. [00:53:00] Whereas music, I’m busting my balls. And then again, it all goes. And so [00:53:05] I was sick of nothing correlating as it should. Yeah. Um, and so that was when [00:53:10] I always had in the back of my head, like you got dentistry. At some point you’re going to have to knuckle down. Um, we [00:53:15] don’t have to, but it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: A bad guy. You are right. Yeah.

Mike Gray: It’s not a bad fallback. [00:53:20] And so like I said, I absolutely hated it. But as soon as I pulled my finger out of my arse and started [00:53:25] putting that effort into dentistry are the level of satisfaction went straight [00:53:30] up and love what I’m doing. Got into this and got into that and I was very lucky. In [00:53:35] the clinic. I ended up at um in Swansea Parkway clinic in Swansea. Fantastic [00:53:40] clinic, huge clinic. It’s kind of like the gateway to the rest of Wales. There’s nothing [00:53:45] else past that. Stop. So the amount of cases that would [00:53:50] just come that way, whatever you wanted to do, there was cases. And so to, [00:53:55] to hone my skills, there was abundance of patients to sort [00:54:00] of go that way and.

Payman Langroudi: Lots of other experts to talk to. Right? Yeah.

Mike Gray: So it’s one of those places [00:54:05] where there’s a bit of everyone under the roof. Max facts, um, endo perio, uh, [00:54:10] that side of it.

Payman Langroudi: Because I came to your other practice, the lodge. Yeah. Again, very impressive. [00:54:15]

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very, very impressed. Not many.

Mike Gray: I there’s not many practices. We’ve got a bar next [00:54:20] to the surgery.

Payman Langroudi: Beautifully done.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And also, you could see it was [00:54:25] a big centre sort of pride. Was it a specialist private.

Mike Gray: So there’s two halves. [00:54:30] Yeah. The half you came to was like the referral centre and the other half is sort of general dentistry. Yeah. [00:54:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you knuckled down to dentistry. What did you do. What did you do to.

Mike Gray: Again [00:54:40] this is going back to what you said with the photographer. I very much the crazy thing is restorative. [00:54:45] Other than the SHO job I did for a year um in Cardiff. [00:54:50] Um I’m self-taught. Um so I haven’t done a single restorative [00:54:55] course. So aesthetic wise, whether it’s composite or veneers or that side. And [00:55:00] in that I wouldn’t say it’s the way to do it. If someone says to me, you know, what’s the best way to learn? Go [00:55:05] and learn from someone incredible. You know, that is absolutely the best way. And this is where [00:55:10] at the time, like, I don’t need to do that. I’ve been going on courses. Later, I go on surgical courses [00:55:15] and my tunes changed. I’ve kind of feel like I’ve got a little bit too far with the prosthetic side, where I [00:55:20] don’t get good bang for my buck in what I’m going to learn. So less so, though I could still learn [00:55:25] a lot. Um, and so I just used to just get my head down and [00:55:30] just read around it. Research. I always have a few things in my head of when [00:55:35] the right patient comes along, I’m going to try this. So I’m not scared to try new things. But [00:55:40] what I make sure is that the right patient comes along to try it on. [00:55:45] I don’t just try it on the next person in that they’re chilled. It’s a low lip line. Uh, [00:55:50] you know, if it does go wrong, it’s not the end of the world sort of thing. And so that sort [00:55:55] of attitude, I sort of try things. And again, yeah, I always tend to learn the hard way. Um, [00:56:00] but I’ve just sort of developed and things like, you know, composite are [00:56:05] go and just layer some teeth up in my garage, work it out. Like, how am I getting there? If [00:56:10] it’s an instrument that I want or I can’t just make it. So, um, um. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: So I saw that, um, camera thing. Yeah.

Mike Gray: The bracket a [00:56:20] little bit risky?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is it just me or is there something about it?

Mike Gray: Uh, I just again, [00:56:25] the way my brain works is I got into my photography, which again is a great [00:56:30] thing to do. Yeah. Um, not just from advertising yourself on that side, but actually reflection [00:56:35] on your work. Um, and again, yeah, go, go [00:56:40] on. Course. You know, that’s make life simple for yourself. Don’t be stupid [00:56:45] like me and just lock yourself in a room for three days and read everything you can about it and that way. [00:56:50] Um, but that’s and I tried the twin flash brackets. [00:56:55] Um, and I found they either had not enough movement or too much. So I’m like, well go in [00:57:00] the garage, hack up a bit of aluminium and knock one up. And I had this ratty bit of kit [00:57:05] that I used for about a year. And I’m like, actually works. I love to just set and forget. [00:57:10] I haven’t got time for faffing. So and I hate the way with particularly the twin flash brackets, [00:57:15] you put it down and it moves there. And the minute anything moves, your flash is in a different place. You’ve got a different [00:57:20] picture, so your befores and afters aren’t consistent or that side of it. And so I knocked up this [00:57:25] and I was like, it kind of works. I should do a proper job of that. So I did a proper job of it and realised how [00:57:30] much, how hard it is to earn money outside of dentistry. Yeah. It’s not, you know, [00:57:35] as in so try a trying to get stuff made in the UK was a nightmare. Um nobody wants [00:57:40] to work. Um so it took me ages trying to, I got my laser cut in Bridgend, then I got them anodised [00:57:45] up in Birmingham and then, uh, laser etched in Port Talbot. And at the [00:57:50] time, you know, it took forever. And then I’m having to thread stuff myself and put stuff together, [00:57:55] box things up, you get an ordinary and you get your emails, and then you’ve got to run it to the post [00:58:00] office and, and.

Payman Langroudi: Then your overall profit on that item £40. It’s like, yeah. [00:58:05]

Mike Gray: And so again, it makes you go, that’s not bad.

Payman Langroudi: I’d rather do it.

Mike Gray: Hard [00:58:10] living in the real world, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: So, um, so I did a bit of that cool thing about that though, is, [00:58:15] you know, because obviously dentistry and limited company and things like that. Um, as long as you attempt to make [00:58:20] profit at something, uh, you can run that through the business. So I can get tools on my limited company. [00:58:25] I love tools, so I’ve got a lathe in the garage and things like that. So hence why I make [00:58:30] some of my own surgical instruments in that I bought some megabucks and I looked at it and I’m like, [00:58:35] I could make that. That’s. So sure enough, I wanted like a pillar elevator for some of the microsurgery [00:58:40] stuff. So I went in the garage and knocked one up on the lathe and use that in my kit, you know? [00:58:45] Um, and so my brain’s always going like that. And so I’m always trying things, always trying things [00:58:50] different. And I think the nice thing, it was the hard way to try and teach myself [00:58:55] and work it out myself, but then it because I wasn’t being told by anyone [00:59:00] how to do it. And often the danger of that is you get shown how to do it. This [00:59:05] is how it’s done. This is how you always do it. Um, because I hadn’t [00:59:10] been shown by anyone, I’d worked out my own way, which allowed me to approach [00:59:15] it completely, sort of in a different way, which which I. You know, I love for that and [00:59:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a beautiful thing. I mean, one of the. We do this course with Depeche Palmer. [00:59:25] Yeah. And young Depeche Palmer was like you. He [00:59:30] hadn’t been on many courses at all. Yeah. And then his mentor told him maybe. [00:59:35] Don’t. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s all original. Yeah. And some of the [00:59:40] insights that he’s come out with are his own. They’re clearly his own. Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:45] And the danger of going on a lot of education if you want to be a teacher. Is that you’re regurgitating [00:59:50] someone else’s work. And for the, you know, you get the delegates that you see [00:59:55] in lots of different courses, they, they can definitely see, you know, where it’s come from. Yeah, yeah. [01:00:00] Whereas we need people like you and him to come up with [01:00:05] totally new ways of looking at it. Um, because [01:00:10] what the hell is progress in the end, right?

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. I mean, there’s been a huge spike. [01:00:15] I would say, um, since digital dentistry has been on the scene, like [01:00:20] the amount of control it can give you and the things because like, again, if you go to the formal [01:00:25] teaching route, articulators. Facebow. Articulator. I haven’t used one for 5 or 6 [01:00:30] years. I do full mouth rehab all the time. You are. I don’t waste of time. Explain that. So [01:00:35] it basically it makes, in my opinion again, I’ll set some people with this. It makes [01:00:40] it more complicated because you’ve got to. You’ve got the added process of taking [01:00:45] a facebow and registering all that side of things. You’re adding cost and lab side of things. You’re also [01:00:50] adding inaccuracy. There’s just none of that you need to do with digital. Um, because [01:00:55] the beauty of digital, you can. All right, maybe articulator you get a [01:01:00] virtual articulator on something like Exocad, which is the dental software again, use that. [01:01:05] Yeah, I do a lot of my own.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean exocad. I mean the virtual articulator. [01:01:10]

Mike Gray: Uh, occasionally. A lot of the time, you don’t need to. You put the tooth in the right place and you’re not going to be [01:01:15] too far off. Um, but the beauty of, of, of digital dentistry is you can transfer. So [01:01:20] I don’t call temporaries temporaries, they’re prototypes and that’s what they are with digital. So [01:01:25] you transfer these prototypes into somebody’s mouth. You can take as long as you want. So the [01:01:30] first full mouth rehab that I approached, um, useless. Didn’t know [01:01:35] what I was doing. Um, as long as you manage the patient’s expectations, which is the biggest thing of any part of [01:01:40] dentistry, managing those expectations, then you [01:01:45] you’re set. So for me on a full mouth rehab, rather than being like, cool, I’m going to prep everything, [01:01:50] put some temporaries on, see how it’s going, and then go to the finals. I’d be like, [01:01:55] oh, this is really difficult. So we’re probably going to take a couple of months to get this bite right [01:02:00] on that side. And so you manage those expectations. And so then I was able to fart around [01:02:05] for as long as I wanted to get it right. And basically you prep the teeth, you put your [01:02:10] prototypes in place and you get your occlusion and everything right where you want. So for me, I [01:02:15] like to put the aesthetics where I want them first, and then I want to make the occlusion work to that aesthetic. [01:02:20] So then I go into the function and you can get your [01:02:25] occlusion exactly where you want it just from tweaking it chairside. And once it’s perfect [01:02:30] and again, if you want, you can send the patient away for a month and, you know, keep dialling it in, make sure [01:02:35] nothing’s broken. And when it’s you feel it’s perfect. Whether you’re reorganising or not, you just [01:02:40] scan. Yeah, you scan that and you, there’s a few little tricks in order to ensure [01:02:45] the accuracy of overlaying scans on one another is good. Um, but if you what. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Are they, what are.

Mike Gray: They? Oh, just little things that you sort of work out. Like if you’re the [01:02:55] hard thing with laying scans over one another is a point of reference.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:03:00] like a three dimensional point of reference.

Mike Gray: Yeah. So teeth are great for that because they’re hard and they don’t [01:03:05] move and they’re accurate. But if you prep them all well, you’ve just destroyed all your reference points.

Payman Langroudi: So attention [01:03:10] to that fact.

Mike Gray: So little things like if you’re scanning, get a load of the palette. It’s [01:03:15] not the most accurate, but it’s not going to change as much as the sort of buckle surfaces. So that’s one extra. If [01:03:20] I’m doing a full mouth rehab, I like to if I can leave the back teeth untouched, I can easily [01:03:25] come back and do those at the end. So again, you’ve kept your points of reference posteriorly. If you’re prepping [01:03:30] crowns at the front, when you fit your temporaries, just leave the margin showing on the palatal. [01:03:35] So you’ve got another hard point of reference. So you’ve kind of got this three point, uh, match up [01:03:40] with, uh, with your scans. And so they actually match up, which means then you can [01:03:45] accurately record the occlusion. So for example, on my prototypes, I’ll leave the articulating marks. [01:03:50] So the lab have.

Payman Langroudi: Oh before scanning. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Gray: So you leave them on. So they’ve literally [01:03:55] got blue red marks where the occlusion where the guidance isn’t it. Oh, so you know, [01:04:00] okay, I need to get this perfect and there’s a little slice tool they can adapt [01:04:05] the ceramic to. With pretty much 100% accurate 99.99, you [01:04:10] know, fractions of a millimetre out. So accurate they can copy that. And as long as you’re transferring [01:04:15] things accurately, then you’ll come back with the exact occlusion that you had in your prototypes, [01:04:20] which is crazy. So you’re fitting stuff and having perfect canine guidance and all that side. And [01:04:25] there’s just no stress, there’s no stress. And, and I hate that about myself in that when I started [01:04:30] the full mouth rehabs, I’d be like, I can’t wait to get to a stage where I’m not stressing before every appointment. [01:04:35] This is horrible. I’m like, ah, and as soon as I get there, because now, like full mouth rehab does not stress [01:04:40] me. And I’m like, all right, I’m a bit bored now. And so then I’m doing something else. And, and [01:04:45] stupidly, I opened the implant can like, unless you’re willing to dive [01:04:50] in.

Payman Langroudi: Implants is all or nothing.

Mike Gray: Leave it alone. Oh my goodness. And I was slow getting to [01:04:55] it because of the surgical background. And I did a lot of soft tissue stuff and things even before placing. I’ve been [01:05:00] restoring them for way before I started placing. Um, and so I kind of did everything a little [01:05:05] bit ass backwards, but I’m on that implant side now. And yeah, I’ve been at it a couple of years and love it.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:05:10] would you be mad if you didn’t go into the implants, though, with all of your surgical background? You know, [01:05:15] because it’s just, yeah, especially like where you are and all that, you know, the competitions. Yeah. [01:05:20] It needs there’s, there’s a supply issue. Yeah. You need, you need people. [01:05:25] Why is it, what do you think is the difference between someone like you? Who how many [01:05:30] full mouth rehabs do you do now? Like, uh, how often do you do you do it?

Mike Gray: It’s the different [01:05:35] I because I get bored doing the same thing. I do a [01:05:40] lot of different things. And so re like a full mouth rehab, I’ll [01:05:45] have, you know, sort of maybe one going a month or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: So someone like you, the difference in someone like [01:05:50] you, who’s, who’s throwing yourself in, reinventing the wheel, you know, [01:05:55] like making your own tricks and tips and tricks up. And then I come across [01:06:00] a bunch of people paralysed by anxiety about being [01:06:05] sued and, and all that. Like you could if you could think to yourself, Jesus, [01:06:10] dude, I’ve made my own instruments. Yeah, I’ve put this into this [01:06:15] guy’s mouth. What if something goes wrong? Yeah, but you’re not thinking that, is it? The fact that [01:06:20] you’ve been through these much harder things that makes dentistry look a bit more like child’s [01:06:25] play?

Mike Gray: I mean, that’s a good point in that I get stressed, I definitely get stressed.

Payman Langroudi: And what stresses. [01:06:30]

Mike Gray: You? Um, I the biggest thing is, is when [01:06:35] I mess up or I don’t do as well as I feel I should have. And that’s not necessarily healthy. And I think [01:06:40] a lot of us are unhealthy in that way as sort of self-criticism and beating ourselves up. Um, but that’s [01:06:45] probably the biggest thing when, when I know I can’t blame it on anything or anyone but [01:06:50] myself, that’s when I’m like, oof, I’m gonna have to take five minutes. And I used to struggle. It [01:06:55] used to play on a bit, but now it’s like, all right, I’ll have a sulk. I’ll sit in those emotions and I will [01:07:00] get past it. But it’s a good point, and I think a lot of it comes [01:07:05] to calculated risk. So you’re going back to the mountain bikes. Um, it’s like, [01:07:10] oh, you know, aren’t you scared of crashing? You are scared of falling off your bike or that side of things. And, [01:07:15] and it’s no, you’re doing it day in, day out. And it’s, you’ve built your skill up to a level [01:07:20] where it’s a calculated risk. And so it’s, it’s the same as, you know, what [01:07:25] was it like when you drove a car for the first time? It’s scary as hell. Like you don’t shit your pants every time [01:07:30] you go in a car. Now you respect it, but it’s that side. And so I suppose it’s that sort of perspective. [01:07:35] It’s like, you know, and for example, the downhill race, you fly all the way to, uh, [01:07:40] you know, uh, you know, Canada or anywhere across the world, you’ve got to, you [01:07:45] sat on the start line, you’ve got a TV camera in your face, you’ve got one run three minutes to get it right and [01:07:50] putting your life on the line. Um, that’s the sort of pressure, you know, or you’re [01:07:55] on stage or that side of it, um, or playing for somebody in your living room, [01:08:00] you know. Uh, and that’s that sort of pressure.

Payman Langroudi: And so it seems a little bit easier than those things. [01:08:05] Yeah.

Mike Gray: But then it’s down under. I still respect it in a [01:08:10] healthy way. And I, and I think a lot of us don’t realise how hard it is and how stressful it is. It’s, [01:08:15] it’s just insane. Yeah. It’s and it sounds really bad because, um, [01:08:20] my wife’s American, I met her in, um, through the music, so, [01:08:25] you know, good thing out of the music. I was in Nashville, I was doing some songwriting there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, was she like a groupie?

Mike Gray: Uh, no, not at all. Not [01:08:30] at all. Just unimpressed. Um, I met her at a little dive bar in Nashville, [01:08:35] and I managed to convince her that Newport was better than Nashville.

Payman Langroudi: Where everything is.

Mike Gray: Now. But, [01:08:40] um. So, uh. Yeah. So, uh, it’s. [01:08:45] Oh, where was I going with that? I got, got caught up [01:08:50] in, in my wife being mad at me, and I’ve lost my train of thought.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is difficult.

Mike Gray: Oh, yeah, that [01:08:55] was it. And so this year we opened up. Uh. Up last year, now 25, we opened up an Airbnb in [01:09:00] Nashville. Um, okay. And, but that’s a project, you know, I give you some cash for it and that [01:09:05] sort of thing. And so she’s, she’s now responsible. And, and she was getting stressed and secretly, [01:09:10] I enjoyed it a little bit until that stress started getting taken out on me because I didn’t [01:09:15] realise how much stress I coped with on a daily basis. Um, [01:09:20] and just took it as normal. And the vast majority of [01:09:25] people don’t, uh, on that side.

Payman Langroudi: And so when I stopped dentistry for [01:09:30] five years and then started again the first two [01:09:35] weeks, you, you suddenly realise, oh my God, is this what [01:09:40] I used to do? Yeah, yeah. And just turning up bitch.

Mike Gray: Oh [01:09:45] man.

Payman Langroudi: And to turn up then, then now, now on, on stage for [01:09:50] that many hours. Yeah. And the weird thing about it was I was, I was trying to do enlighten [01:09:55] at the same time. Yeah. The only time you’ve got is just like weird, like lunchtime [01:10:00] or. It depends how you run your book. Right? I used to run long, long appointments, [01:10:05] so I used to get like 15, 20 minutes here and there. Yeah. And if you want to do anything, at the end of the [01:10:10] day, you’re pretty much burnt out. Yeah. Especially in private. I found private, [01:10:15] you know, would burn your brain. Yeah. Nhs would burn your body almost. Yeah. It [01:10:20] was that hard. Yeah. Your soul. Yeah. Um, so you’re right. It [01:10:25] it is a lot of stress. And the empathy side is important [01:10:30] and tiring. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve said this before, my, my cousin who I saw last [01:10:35] night, he’s a, he’s an eye surgeon. Yeah. He says when, when the patient’s not either [01:10:40] heavily sedated or, or GA, he has a much more stressful [01:10:45] day than when he’s doing a GA list. Right. Because he goes but la inside people’s eyes. Yeah. [01:10:50] And that anxiety comes and you know, we’ve got that at a level continuously [01:10:55] all the time.

Mike Gray: And unfortunately, everyone hates you, even if they’re nice [01:11:00] about it. Oh well. Big change from my practice now though, which I’ll come on to. But have you heard of like, [01:11:05] you must have heard of compassion fatigue?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And your mental health [01:11:10] wise.

Mike Gray: Yeah. And so that’s, that’s a real thing in like the therapy world where everyone’s coming and [01:11:15] trauma dumping on you. And if you’re not careful, you’ll soak it up like a sponge. So like therapists [01:11:20] and that they get up and they have different ways to combat it. Like something might just be stand up, shake your arms and [01:11:25] legs or run your hands under some sort of running water. They check in with their own therapists [01:11:30] every couple of weeks. And in dentistry, we get that every day. It’s like even [01:11:35] the the there’s plenty of people that outright be like, I hate you. I’m [01:11:40] like, oof, okay. And then, but there’s other people that are really polite about it, [01:11:45] but all their body language is telling you, I’m scared of you, I hate you. Um, and [01:11:50] you take so much.

Payman Langroudi: So funny that we take that personally. I mean, I don’t. [01:11:55]

Mike Gray: Like the massive difference now.

Payman Langroudi: Just the words themselves.

Mike Gray: So I purely do, like I said, [01:12:00] aesthetic and surgical dentistry, it’s all elective side of things. Yeah. Everyone [01:12:05] wants to be there. So nobody moans about the injection. Nobody moans about paying, nobody moans [01:12:10] about that. It’s it’s a completely different approach. And I didn’t realise that big wave [01:12:15] that was lifted. And when I started seeing these patients versus my [01:12:20] average day, and I’m doing way more complex and difficult stuff, but that burden is way lighter. [01:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: You’re right on.

Mike Gray: That.

Payman Langroudi: Side. The other thing is, uh, my, my, [01:12:30] um, two kids had ortho. Yeah, one normal ortho [01:12:35] and the other Dental monitoring ortho. Yeah. And Dental monitoring ortho [01:12:40] only visited five times or something. Yeah, yeah. And as a dentist, you [01:12:45] think, oh, that’s like the number of hours that she spent with my daughters. Not many hours. And we paid all [01:12:50] this money, but from the from the other side of it. Hell. Great man. Like going to the dentist. [01:12:55] Yeah. Is not pleasant. How much we think we make our waiting rooms nice. [01:13:00] And yeah, it’s not a pleasant going anywhere. It’s not pleasant to somebody.

Mike Gray: That enjoys that there. The scary patients.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:13:05] yeah. Like going to the hairdresser isn’t pleasant. Like spending.

Mike Gray: Time. Like people [01:13:10] hate the dentist. Oh my my, this is my bubble, my personal space. And you’re in.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Mike Gray: You know, you can tell [01:13:15] I don’t like the hairdresser. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s it’s pleasant going to a restaurant or going to a doing [01:13:20] some sports or going to a show or it’s, it’s not pleasant going to any form of therapist, [01:13:25] right? It’s like, you know, but we fool ourselves because we’re having sometimes meaningful relationships [01:13:30] with the patients. We fool ourselves into thinking they’re having as much fun as we are. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And [01:13:35] that’s, and that’s why I think I love, you know, education. I think that’s so important. [01:13:40] You know, we were talking about before. So for example, the course I run poise protocol. Um, what’s it called. [01:13:45] Poise protocol poise poise. Yeah. So path of insertion and structural enhancement. It’s basically [01:13:50] that goes in my head the minute I approach anything indirect. It doesn’t matter what it is [01:13:55] because I’m asking myself, cool. So is there a path of insertion for the ceramic? [01:14:00] Yes or no? Do I need to create one? And structural enhancement. You know, is there enough strength [01:14:05] in the material I’m using and the tooth that I’m putting on? And when you think about it like that, you’re [01:14:10] always going to do the right thing for the tooth. And what the crazy thing, which it blows my mind, [01:14:15] which I feel everyone should know from the aesthetic side, is you [01:14:20] can provide ceramic veneers so, so minimally invasive [01:14:25] in that way. And it’s, I think I’ve gone full [01:14:30] circle in like everyone’s done composite, everyone jumps on composite and composite is [01:14:35] great. It is fantastic. It has its place.

Payman Langroudi: It’s fantastic. But you wouldn’t have it in your [01:14:40] own mouth, isn’t it? I mean, I’ve got it. My front teeth, my teeth.

Mike Gray: Have had a hammering, you know, again [01:14:45] relating to lifestyle.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but tell me, explain it to me because so you’re saying a virtually [01:14:50] no prep. Yeah. So indirect porcelain veneer that you’re bringing [01:14:55] in in a, the path of insertion is not, not the normal path.

Mike Gray: So again. [01:15:00]

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you’re.

Mike Gray: Saying? When I started looking into that, because again, I was sick of comments like if anyone who does a lot [01:15:05] of composite, I don’t care what people are telling you with courses, the good educators will tell you the truth [01:15:10] about composite and that it’s fantastic, but you’re going to get chips, you’re going to get stains unforgiving. [01:15:15] Yeah, absolutely. And and it has its place. It’s perfect for anything that for me that it isn’t full [01:15:20] coverage, it’s composites. Great. Anything that’s full coverage. So, you [01:15:25] know, veneer ceramics, ceramics, way better. I, I had [01:15:30] one veneer fail in the last five years. I do not have veneer fractures or problems [01:15:35] or stains in my diary. It’s just not there. I am way less stressed with the ceramic [01:15:40] because I know I’m going to put that there. I have my protocols right and I’m not going to see him again. It’s [01:15:45] you know, it’s fantastic. And basically when I started looking into the whole prep list, because [01:15:50] I don’t, I like to try and be as minimally invasive as possible, which is different as an aesthetic dentist. I don’t [01:15:55] use cosmetic. That’s a dirty word in America. Um, so aesthetic dentist [01:16:00] side. And, um, when I approached it, I went to the lab a lucky [01:16:05] again in that a good relationship with my lab.

Mike Gray: And I got a really good lab technician, Anthony Bailey and Cardiff, [01:16:10] um, prime ceramics and we’re good buddies now because I’ve been back and forth for years and, [01:16:15] um, so I’m in there pretty much most weeks and he’s taught me all my ceramics. Like I do all my ceramic, [01:16:20] I do all the CAD side. He’s been my mentor through all of that. And when I first approached [01:16:25] him about ceramic, he’s like, um, felspathic. That’s the cool thing. That’s like [01:16:30] the sort of the, the creme de la creme sort of, of that side. And to [01:16:35] find someone to do feldspathic, um, well is difficult. Um, [01:16:40] you need a really talented clinician. And then when you look at the flexural strength, it’s like 70 [01:16:45] megapascals. It’s less than flowable composite. Um, and obviously you put it on a solid [01:16:50] base. You get that strength. So he said to me, call Feldspathic is really weak and it’s really hard for [01:16:55] someone to do it. And in the dentistry side of things, we’re kind of told, oh, stars need to align [01:17:00] to do prep less because it’s just not for everyone. And so [01:17:05] immediately I was like, well, I don’t want to dedicate my time and effort learning [01:17:10] about a material that was invented in the 70s that’s difficult to do [01:17:15] and not very strong.

Mike Gray: So I’m like, okay, well, how are we going to get the benefits of that out [01:17:20] of modern materials? And so you look at like the lithium disilicate urimax is like your sort of your trade [01:17:25] name and things like that. And, um, you can place, [01:17:30] uh, lithium disilicate 0.3 mils thick, which [01:17:35] is nothing. So if you’re not prepping, you’re not exactly adding massive bulk. When you look at margins, [01:17:40] okay, well, we need a margin. In my head, it was like, okay, I have to prep a margin. [01:17:45] Otherwise there’s going to be a big ledge. Oh yeah. And you’re going to have bacteria in the you look [01:17:50] at the papers. Um, you get more longevity with, with propolis [01:17:55] because you’ve left all that enamel there. Gingiva is healthy. And again, so you look at bop concepts [01:18:00] and that side of it, there’s no margins there and [01:18:05] everything’s completely healthy. It’s more about that sort of profile of what’s going on. You look at implants, you [01:18:10] know, a huge obviously it needs to be the right shape. But, you know, there’s no such thing as [01:18:15] a margin there. So you don’t actually need margins. And then with digitally you can act.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s an [01:18:20] actual ledge.

Mike Gray: Uh, so.

Payman Langroudi: A very thin one.

Mike Gray: No, no, no, no, there’s no ledge knowledge. You don’t prep a [01:18:25] margin at all.

Payman Langroudi: No. But so now you’ve got this veneer on there. How, how is it as long as you.

Mike Gray: Have [01:18:30] a nice smooth transition onto it. So not a square edge, then things are happy. And [01:18:35] again, digitally you can accurately place them. 0.3mm Subgingivally super [01:18:40] easy to do that with, with modern sort of digital scanners. And the beauty of it is [01:18:45] with modern scanners, you can scan a mouth. And when I say the stars need to align [01:18:50] path of insertion, point, path of insertion, you have to have a path of insertion for the ceramic to go [01:18:55] on. When you actually analyse it digitally, you can move it around and roughly [01:19:00] for a veneer you coming from the labial, but I like to come a bit of like 45 degrees to the incisal. [01:19:05] If you come to labial, gingiva starts getting in the way, but by immediately coming labial, you’ve been minimally [01:19:10] invasive. You have to remove less tooth structure. So you start fighting around with these scans, [01:19:15] um approaching from the labial. And the beautiful thing is they have [01:19:20] buttons that you can identify undercuts. See it’s not meant for [01:19:25] this. It’s meant for checking your prep. And have I got rid of it. You just put that on [01:19:30] on prep tooth, move it around a bit. It shows you exactly where the undercuts are.

Payman Langroudi: For that path of insertion. [01:19:35]

Mike Gray: That path of insertion. You change the view to path Preferences and you can fart around and it [01:19:40] shows you exactly where those paths of insertions are. So what I do then is I work out the best approach [01:19:45] for each tooth, the um as far as path of insertion. And [01:19:50] it highlights in blue depending on what sort of software you’re using. Um, but most [01:19:55] scanners will have an undercut button on there and you can create a preparation map and it, [01:20:00] it shows you exactly the bit of tooth you need to remove in order to create a path for insertion. [01:20:05] And what you will realise is it’s bugger all apps. So a full arch [01:20:10] of preps will take me five minutes in that you just get a little disk and you [01:20:15] go, yeah, yeah, according to your preparation map and a veneer is going to go on there. Um, [01:20:20] and, and other than structural enhancement with veneers, sharp line angles, [01:20:25] things like that, that you need to smooth off so you don’t have crack propagation. There’s nothing to do. [01:20:30] So a prep mouth looks untouched. I don’t numb them up. I do it as a point to [01:20:35] demonstrate to the patient, I’m not hacking your teeth to bits. And so it’s [01:20:40] incredibly minimally invasive. Like truly invasive. Because my argument against composite [01:20:45] is, you know, I think it’s false advertising when you say teeth are untouched [01:20:50] because this isn’t going to last forever. What happens when you take it off and they say, oh, I’ll be careful and [01:20:55] I’ll take that. Even polishing by nature is removing tooth structure. That’s the act of polishing. And [01:21:00] I see cases where they’ve had 2 or 3 lots of composite that I’m redoing. [01:21:05] And you take that composite off. That’s not a virgin tooth underneath. Someone’s been a bit slack or a bit rushed [01:21:10] or a bit lazy or just they’ve had so much. It is not an untouched tooth. And so you do that [01:21:15] 3 or 4 times, or you have ceramic where you’ve carefully according [01:21:20] digitally and super accurately recontoured this tooth and you’ve [01:21:25] got a veneer that’s going to last 15, 20 years and you’re not touching. And so it’s.

Payman Langroudi: How do you avoid the tooth [01:21:30] being bulky?

Mike Gray: It’s not 0.3 mil like.

Payman Langroudi: Across the whole thing.

Mike Gray: Yeah. You can have [01:21:35] 0.3 mil thickness and, and so that side of it, and obviously you can thicken it out way more [01:21:40] like the big thing for me. Yeah. The big thing for me on volume is lip line. [01:21:45] If somebody, as a general rule of thumb, if somebody’s got a high lip line, you want to keep the volume down because otherwise they look like [01:21:50] those sort of stuck on bits of teeth. Um, but yeah, you’re adding.

Payman Langroudi: Typically, are you doing [01:21:55] sort of a line bleach then that.

Mike Gray: Oh yeah, I’m a massive pro ortho before, like I [01:22:00] said, it’s uh, if someone’s, uh, the question I asked myself is, is this [01:22:05] patient going to die with their teeth by the time I finish with them? And if they are [01:22:10] older, I will give them the option of prepping versus not prepping. I still prefer not to prep. So even if somebody comes [01:22:15] to me in their 50s and they’re like, I want full mouth veneers, I’m like, cool, give me a good reason not [01:22:20] to do ortho because everyone’s life is easier. Uh, you know, my life as far as preps, [01:22:25] masking whatever is easier. But I say, look, best thing for you to do is to ortho first. But if they [01:22:30] say no, I’m like, fine. As long as it’s not crazy and I’m not hacking away too much to structure. I’ll be like, cool, I’ll [01:22:35] prep a younger patient. I don’t even give him a choice. I was like, no, you want veneers? It’s also first or nothing. Um, [01:22:40] and that side and again, coming back to the prep list, way easier to [01:22:45] do a full mouth than it is 1 or 2 teeth talking about that book. Because if you start back here, 0.3 [01:22:50] mil doesn’t look like you’ve added anything, um, onto the front, even if you start at the back. So works [01:22:55] a lot easier with, with, uh, sort of full teeth and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So, and then [01:23:00] when you come to cement, um, each one of them is going in at a different angle. [01:23:05]

Mike Gray: No, you be pretty much going at that sort of 4545. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: Generally.

Mike Gray: It’s your conventional veneer approach when you just wiggle it around a little bit [01:23:15] to, to keep it minimal, that’s all you’re doing. And you don’t want to go too [01:23:20] crazy with your approach because particularly on veneers, if you’re going too far from like, say, [01:23:25] laterally you, that’s when you have to start or I have to cement this one first and then that one. So [01:23:30] you want to keep it fairly, but again, it will blow your mind. I haven’t got my laptop [01:23:35] in my bag. I’ll show you after like how minimal it is that you’re actually to create [01:23:40] a path of insertion for every single tooth in the head. The vast majority, like you’ll have 4 or 5 teeth. Don’t touch. [01:23:45] Don’t even touch them. Um, and so that that world of prep is [01:23:50] just rather than being able to do it on 5% of people, you’re up to like 90% [01:23:55] of people. And the cool thing is, you know, I’d love to save enamel [01:24:00] everywhere in that the number of cases I see now where somebody’s prepped a full mouth, [01:24:05] um, conventional veneers, you’d think could I’ve done that a different way and that side. [01:24:10]

Payman Langroudi: And I think without, without prep you’ve got a much better bond, right.

Mike Gray: Oh yeah. No, I [01:24:15] mean, because the main success of a veneer is, I mean obviously you can look at occlusion and that not [01:24:20] to enamel. Yeah. It’s it’s that bond. And and you’ve left it all there. It’s there’s acres of it. [01:24:25] You couldn’t have a better starting point as to where you want to go. So yeah, [01:24:30] it’s awesome in that side and digital makes that all possible.

Payman Langroudi: Did you come up with this yourself? [01:24:35]

Mike Gray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like there wasn’t another guy in Peru who I saw.

Mike Gray: I mean, there’s a lot of things that [01:24:40] I think I’ve been clever and invented, and I’m probably not the first person, but.

Payman Langroudi: But you just came up with this yourself. You just step by [01:24:45] step by step.

Mike Gray: Five years. Yeah. That that sort of way. Interesting. And it’s, it’s, it’s, I love [01:24:50] it. I absolutely love it.

Payman Langroudi: So is that what your course teaches this?

Mike Gray: Yeah, yeah. And it’s basically I don’t [01:24:55] teach the conventional prep side because you can get that everywhere else. But the whole workflow of, [01:25:00] you know, planning to smile design to, um, actually, [01:25:05] yeah, executing and cementing and, and sort of all that side. [01:25:10] Um, but then yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d you run the course?

Mike Gray: So I run that a lodge, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Lodge.

Mike Gray: Itself. Yeah. Lodge [01:25:15] itself. I like to keep smaller numbers. Um, we’ve been three years sold out now, which is cool. [01:25:20] Um, I need to.

Payman Langroudi: Do it once a year.

Mike Gray: About twice a year, twice a year. So I need to [01:25:25] release some dates. Um, but again, going back to the core side, [01:25:30] I love to create a space where people can just come and speak to other [01:25:35] like minded people, because such a stressful profession as we talked about it. And so come [01:25:40] and let your hair down. If you want to learn, you can learn. But you know, I put people I got to stop because [01:25:45] I don’t make any money. I don’t that’s the business side of me that’s useless. But I put people up in [01:25:50] a five star hotel, nice food, getting some wine tasting or whisky tasting. And [01:25:55] I had an ice cream van and barbecue at the last one. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think, I think, I [01:26:00] think education needs a shake up.

Mike Gray: Oh no. But.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in this sense, it’s awesome.

Mike Gray: And I [01:26:05] love what you were talking about earlier, where you’re effectively getting a sort of a really [01:26:10] cool space to get everyone together.

Payman Langroudi: So we’re doing this thing at Ministry of Sound. Yeah. Which [01:26:15] I think you’re going to be at. So that would be great. Yeah. Yeah, that’ll be great. Check your diary. Yeah, [01:26:20] it’s.

Mike Gray: I think I did, like I said, with the American wife, as long as it’s not you saying it’s June.

Payman Langroudi: June, June [01:26:25] 30th.

Mike Gray: June 13th? Yes, as long as it’s not July 4th, Independence Day, you’re there. I [01:26:30] should be there. I set, I’m set. Otherwise, I’m on a lake, eating hot dogs, drinking beer and watching fireworks.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s [01:26:35] so interesting. Like, you know, the guy who invented Invisalign was some sort of banker. [01:26:40] Yeah. And it’s sometimes you have to zoom out or not be in [01:26:45] it. Yeah. To come up with solutions that are, you know, like, in a [01:26:50] way, it’s so interesting. You haven’t been on any cosmetics courses or particularly hadn’t [01:26:55] been on any cosmetic courses by the time you started coming up with this solution. Yeah. Um, [01:27:00] and yet look at it from a different angle. And I’m quite surprised at what you’re saying [01:27:05] about the margin that the, the margin isn’t an issue. Yeah. And, but you’re right in that, in that sort of [01:27:10] vertebrate world, we. Yeah.

Mike Gray: No you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: No one’s worried.

Mike Gray: About. I can show you, you know three [01:27:15] five year post-doc with. And we can all we all know what healthy gingiva looks like. Yeah. Brand new. Uh, [01:27:20] and, uh, yeah, it’s it’s, uh, The biggest question I get [01:27:25] whenever I talk on it is, is like, what about the gum health? Yeah. And because [01:27:30] it just doesn’t make sense. And that’s where you kind of condition. But it’s. Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:35] are you bad at?

Mike Gray: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: Bad dentistry.

Mike Gray: Yeah. [01:27:40] Um, things that involve patience, as [01:27:45] in not physical patience. The the act of being patient. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Short. [01:27:50]

Mike Gray: So Endo, for example. I’m good at endo. I was been a while. Yeah. Um, [01:27:55] I opened my first tooth over the Christmas period, um, for a long time and I was, I was, I [01:28:00] was, I’m working like, where are these canals? How many are there? Okay. Right. It’s a molar. Uh, but [01:28:05] it came back. Oh yeah. No, we got out [01:28:10] of pain, so succeeded there. But um, things like endo, [01:28:15] endo and I did great until it [01:28:20] got fiddly And I just got too impatient and I would snap something [01:28:25] or ledge something. And that was it. Like orthodontics. I, I [01:28:30] want it done now. I want it done now. And this is something I struggle with [01:28:35] on the surgical side because you have to wait for everything to mature. And I don’t. So like, you [01:28:40] know, I get a case I’m really excited to finish, but I’m going to do this bone graft now and then I’m going to wait four months and [01:28:45] then I’m going to sort of vertically graft the tissue and wait another four months. And then I’m going to condition [01:28:50] it to develop the Pontic site. And so 12, 18 months later I might get to the end. [01:28:55] And, and I struggle with that because I just want it now. And so yeah, anything [01:29:00] that sort of involves patience is my mind goes because I just want it.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:29:05] about Lifewise? What’s the like.

Mike Gray: Failure?

Payman Langroudi: I’d say.

Mike Gray: It’s failure. [01:29:10] Um, in that.

Payman Langroudi: Punish yourself mentally.

Mike Gray: No, it’s I’m just I [01:29:15] think I should imagine there’s a lot of dentists like this is. And you’re a high achiever, [01:29:20] right, to get into dental school. So you’ve done well in school. You’ve done well in university and [01:29:25] on that side. And so dealing with failure isn’t [01:29:30] something you’re used to. And this is where I suffered in the music. Uh, [01:29:35] the setbacks and things there. It’s I expected, oh, you work hard, you do this [01:29:40] and you pass. Um, and so that door opens and you move on [01:29:45] and somebody goes, nah, I don’t like that. Closes the door. I [01:29:50] couldn’t deal with that. It’s like I’m a failure. I’m no good. I’m not. And whereas you look at [01:29:55] people that deal with failure, which is most of life and most of business, it’s handling that rejection. [01:30:00] Uh, and, and you do because it’s something like, is it the Mormons? Like there’s a real, uh, [01:30:05] high percentage of the sort of the entrepreneurs, um, because they spend [01:30:10] first two years of their adulthood get sent on like pilgrimage and, and door [01:30:15] to door rejection, everyone slamming the door in their face. And so somebody [01:30:20] else closing a door. It means nothing to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Somebody closes a door on me, I fall apart. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: I saw this thing on probably on TikTok or something. It was like, if you if your kid [01:30:30] is top of his class and good at sports and all that, he hasn’t come across resilience [01:30:35] against rejection and failure, you know? And [01:30:40] I thought about my daughter, like she, she goes to ballet. She goes to ballet every week, every week. [01:30:45] She’s not the top of her class at ballet. She’s not here, but she keeps on going. Yeah. And I [01:30:50] was thinking, man, you know, if you give that much time to something, at least give it to something that you’re going to be like really [01:30:55] into or whatever. And then when I saw this, I thought, at least she’s building that muscle, [01:31:00] right? That muscle of resilience muscle, you know, which is a really important thing [01:31:05] in adulthood. Right? Definitely.

Mike Gray: Because unfortunately, that is life. Yeah. You know, [01:31:10] and.

Payman Langroudi: You get knocked back in life.

Mike Gray: Right? Yeah. So much. And, and that side. And that’s where [01:31:15] I wish I’m getting better. Um, but I’m so I’m building [01:31:20] that resilience a bit late.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in this question here of on in any endeavour, whether [01:31:25] it’s one of your ones that even or even, you know, photography or whatever in any [01:31:30] endeavour. Yeah. How much should you rely on resilience and just keep going and [01:31:35] keep going and keep going. And how do you know when’s the time to pivot? You [01:31:40] know, and, and I guess there’s no clear answer to that question. Yeah, [01:31:45] but but for instance, with me, the notion of giving up on something just doesn’t [01:31:50] cross my mind. So I tend to hold on to things a bit too long. Yeah, yeah. [01:31:55] Like sometimes my, my business partner, he’s great. He’s unemotional about he’s just like, let’s kill that product. [01:32:00] Yeah. And I just, I, I’m just so attached to it.

Mike Gray: But that’s, and that’s where I’d make a terrible CEO. [01:32:05] Um, I think I see myself as that I’m the type of person that [01:32:10] a CEO would love to get on board because they’re just fanatical and whatever. And [01:32:15] they work hard. Um, but that’s the whole point of, you know, them [01:32:20] trying to make it successful. You want lots of people around it. You can’t do all that yourself joking.

Payman Langroudi: You’re bad at [01:32:25] delegating or trusting other people.

Mike Gray: Terrible. Again.

Payman Langroudi: Control freak.

Mike Gray: Yes. [01:32:30] It’s less a control freak. And it’s again, without sounding too arrogant, I’m good at a lot of things. And so [01:32:35] to do a good job, often it’s, you know, you want a job, you probably do it yourself. And [01:32:40] so a lot of the time, I do a lot of things myself because of the quality or level that [01:32:45] I want it done. However you just.

Payman Langroudi: Limiting. Yeah.

Mike Gray: You can’t, you hit a [01:32:50] ceiling very quickly.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I’ve learned here is that if you’re giving a job to someone, [01:32:55] by the way, I’m not the best delegator. My best partner is excellent at it. I’m really not that great. But [01:33:00] if you give a job to someone, something. Let’s take it like, I don’t know, I was running the social media of [01:33:05] enlightened myself. Yeah. In the first whenever five years of social media. Yeah. [01:33:10] Right. Then it got to a point where I’d give it to someone. There’s going to be a dip. Yeah, there’s going to be a [01:33:15] period of time where that person’s doing it worse than what you were doing it. Yeah. Yeah. [01:33:20] And you’ve got to be like, allow that dip to happen. Bearing [01:33:25] in mind once you’ve done it a few times, that at one point that person’s going to be doing it much better than you. Yeah. Because [01:33:30] that person’s 100% focussed on that thing. Yeah. But some perfectionist types, [01:33:35] they can’t face that dip. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember like seeing some of our output [01:33:40] at that moment thinking, oh, you know, that’s not my brand. Yeah. Yeah. But [01:33:45] and I think through laziness, I didn’t address it. Right. But then this person ended up being much better than [01:33:50] me at that. Yeah. Yeah. I went on some course, you know, like completely focussed on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And it’s, [01:33:55] I think my wife’s good for that one in that I will fret over like stupid things. And she [01:34:00] used to, she did jewellery design for about ten years. And in that world everyone’s stealing everyone else’s [01:34:05] ideas and this sort of thing. And I’m like, I’m trying to come up with these inventions. And like, I worry that this [01:34:10] leaked or something like that, I’m like, oh, it’s going to get copied. And she’s like, shut up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re [01:34:15] fine.

Mike Gray: Um, on that side. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Chuck, are you going to do your own practice? [01:34:20]

Mike Gray: Should really potentially purely because I [01:34:25] would love to have that control of how things are. But then again, there’s [01:34:30] so many things that I love to spend my time doing now, which I know I would have to sacrifice. [01:34:35] That’s true. And, um, so for example, again, going back, I suppose I say I’m [01:34:40] bad at delegating, but then I think with my education, like obviously now I’m taking it seriously. [01:34:45] Um, I’ve been smarter about that in that, for example, [01:34:50] I gatecrashed, I forget what university it was and they had like a sort of a paper reading [01:34:55] day, um, a literary review and um, the person leading [01:35:00] it at the start said, you know, why do we make you do this? Um, and [01:35:05] it was because even though you can read summaries of these papers [01:35:10] and all that, and it’s an abstract put for you. You. If unless you read it [01:35:15] the paper yourself, you won’t generate your response. And it might be different [01:35:20] to what somebody else has done. And I think that’s a valid point. But for me, I’m [01:35:25] just going to ask somebody that I trust that’s read the paper, and then I don’t have to spend my time [01:35:30] reading a paper from 1985. Uh, I can spend.

Payman Langroudi: It these days. Ai, right?

Mike Gray: Well, [01:35:35] yeah, there’s that side that summarises. Great. Um, but it’s, I [01:35:40] can then put my time into learning CAD. I can, you know, learn 3d printing. I can [01:35:45] on that side. And so I’m still working just as hard as somebody else. And, but I’m terrible [01:35:50] at quoting papers and that’s like absolutely useless. But then you just have.

Payman Langroudi: Does it stress you that someone’s [01:35:55] going to turn up on your course and bedazzle you with like, uh, [01:36:00] science from another.

Mike Gray: Absolutely. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: I tell you, you’re a charlatan. [01:36:05]

Mike Gray: That’s every lecturer’s nightmare, I think, and I’ve been fortunate [01:36:10] in that I certainly with my course, it’s a lot of. It’s been word of mouth [01:36:15] and everyone who wants to do it is really passionate and they just want to be there. [01:36:20] And so everyone’s been awesome. It’s been incredible. And I think I’m [01:36:25] sure I will get that if it keeps building and then somebody’s doing it because they feel they ought [01:36:30] to do it because their bodies did it or they need to keep up and, and, and, and that side and [01:36:35] the best approach I find is just to be honest and say, I don’t know, you [01:36:40] know, you could have a point.

Payman Langroudi: I so respect people who say, I don’t know.

Mike Gray: Yeah. And, and, and [01:36:45] it’s because as well, you’ve got to be careful. I learned this, [01:36:50] um, uh, I lectured in UPenn last year. Um, and, [01:36:55] uh.

Payman Langroudi: How’d that come about?

Mike Gray: Uh, Celine. Uh, [01:37:00] Celine. Yeah. Yeah. So she’s.

Payman Langroudi: She’s there.

Mike Gray: Now. She’s there now. And so I know [01:37:05] her. And then, um. Marcus Blatz and that side. And, uh, I sort [01:37:10] of you can find a paper to support anything. Um, now, so whatever you’re trying [01:37:15] to say, you can just Google, you know, ChatGPT, whatever, or the various other resources [01:37:20] to, um, to, to support what you want to say. And so everyone does that. And, and she’s like, don’t [01:37:25] do that in front of Marcus. And so I’m like last minute taking down all these references [01:37:30] in there and, and it’s much better. It’s much better to even find a paper that argues against [01:37:35] what you’re trying to say, uh, and just be authentic in that side. Um, and [01:37:40] yeah, it’s, I, I respect that too. And I really respect lecturers [01:37:45] who talk about their mistakes. I’m trying to be brave enough to incorporate more of that [01:37:50] into what I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: It makes for a much better experience for them.

Mike Gray: Because [01:37:55] that’s how I learned the hard way. Um, and so there’s so much value in [01:38:00] that side of.

Payman Langroudi: Things about papers. Yeah. Is that when you’re at To near the [01:38:05] forefront of something you realise much of the literature is [01:38:10] is, is whether you want to call it incorrect or whether you want [01:38:15] to call it out of date or whatever it is.

Mike Gray: You’re never going to be at the cutting edge. [01:38:20] I mean, you will, but it’s yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, like I’m waiting.

Mike Gray: For 12 [01:38:25] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I draw an insight. I draw an insight here from from 140,000 [01:38:30] treatments. Yeah. Let’s say I’ve got data on 140,000 [01:38:35] treatments. Yeah. I draw an insight from that. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone will quote me a paper [01:38:40] with 42 patients. Um, and it’s a, it’s a world renowned, you know, name. [01:38:45] Yeah. On 42 patients decided the opposite of my insight that [01:38:50] I’ve brought from 140 000 cases. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, and [01:38:55] I’m hundred percent sure about this insight. Yeah. If you Google it. Yeah. Hardly [01:39:00] any paper says that that’s true. Yeah. And so it’s almost like, you know, [01:39:05] when you when you understand something or when you’re involved with something, you realise how [01:39:10] like, let’s say, have you ever been involved in a news story where there’s a [01:39:15] journalist involved? Yeah. Where there’s a journalist involved. I mean, news story sounds a bit dramatic, a [01:39:20] PR story where there’s a journalist involved and you’re part of it and you’re close to the situation, [01:39:25] and you read the article and it’s just like, the details are all incorrect. Yeah. You know, and the conclusion [01:39:30] is incorrect. Yeah. So sometimes when you, when you know about something, but [01:39:35] then in our, in our world, where’s the evidence? It’s like a very good question you should [01:39:40] be asking. Yeah.

Mike Gray: And it’s just that balance, isn’t it. And I think that’s part of developing yourself [01:39:45] as a clinician or anything in the world. It’s just using your brain to pick out what’s sensible, [01:39:50] isn’t it on that side? But yeah, because I guess you look at me on paper, you tear [01:39:55] me apart like I shouldn’t be doing any of the treatments that I do. Like, you know, right now I love my soft tissue [01:40:00] work, so I’m doing everything around implants like vertical grafting, rebuilding, papilla, all [01:40:05] that. Oh, really? And and, you know, full mouth rehab, all [01:40:10] that. Technically, I always think, like, what happens if I end up before the GDC and [01:40:15] there’s a panel expert. Yeah. And it would be traditional, say prosthodontics trained [01:40:20] and they’ll be sort of critiquing how I do it. [01:40:25] And technically, you know, there’d be far more by the book. And so it’s, yeah, [01:40:30] it’s a weird one. But like, like you said, it’s applying that common sense. And [01:40:35] for you, you, you, you, you’ve got all that wealth of data and things [01:40:40] to support what it is you’re thinking. So, you know, it’s legit. And again, coming back to that whole margin side, [01:40:45] I worried at first. I’m like, oh, if I don’t drill a margin, but then I’m like, well, we’re putting all [01:40:50] these composites on and they’re definitely thicker than 0.3mm.

Payman Langroudi: Which is not very much, is it? [01:40:55]

Mike Gray: Yeah. And everything’s fine. And so actually, I’ve got [01:41:00] everything in front of me. It’s telling me. Know what you’re thinking of doing. Isn’t that crazy? [01:41:05] Um. And so yeah, you’re fine on that side.

Payman Langroudi: What about Instagram? [01:41:10] Do you find it easy to know?

Mike Gray: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: You find it hard.

Mike Gray: It’s a double edged sword, isn’t it? I think [01:41:15] double edged blade in that you you kind of need to do it. I [01:41:20] think in the modern world, I think one of the best things have come out of it is sort of networking and [01:41:25] meeting people. And also the University of Instagram, you see lots of stupid stuff. But again, [01:41:30] that’s down to you to take apart properly. But then there’s so much incredible things everyone wants to [01:41:35] show off. So they’re showing you all these amazing things and it’s like, oh wow, do they do that? How can I do this? How can I tweak that? How [01:41:40] can I apply that? And you can work it out, break it down and, and apply it to where you want to go. So it’s, [01:41:45] it’s awesome in that respect. Um, but then it’s more work. It’s a lot [01:41:50] of work to do it properly. I’ve been terrible these last few months of doing it because I’m focusing, I’ve got other projects [01:41:55] top secret, um, which at some point, uh, when when the pattern [01:42:00] clears, you’ll know about it. But, um, so I, you know, putting time into other [01:42:05] things and that side and the social media side suffered. And because you, you have [01:42:10] to commit yourself or like you said, get someone to [01:42:15] take that over for you. And that again, is probably me. And my [01:42:20] thought process is wrong on this thinking, like, if somebody does it, [01:42:25] they’re not going to get the right angles. They’re not going to try and say, because a lot of my posts are more for dentists, not patients, um, [01:42:30] pretty much all of them. And so that educational side and, and that bit, I feel it [01:42:35] would be difficult for someone to get right unless it’s me, but of course there would be ways around it. I just need to invest [01:42:40] the time and, you know, and plan it. And I’m sure I could. Um, but it’s, uh, [01:42:45] yeah, it’s, it’s a great thing and not a great thing on the same.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s finish with [01:42:50] some quick fire questions. What comes to mind when I say what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Mike Gray: Ah, so [01:42:55] my, um, can I have a favourite lecturer? So you know doctor Alice Roberts, [01:43:00] she, she does all that sort of coast to coast thing. She’s an anthropologist. Um, so all [01:43:05] this sort of discovery channel, things like, you know, they’re trying to work out Henry the Eighth.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Mike Gray: That sort of thing. [01:43:10] Ah, she taught us in Bristol for anatomy and I fancied her. So [01:43:15] I was front row every lesson for, [01:43:20] for, for anatomy. So definitely. Uh, yeah. Doctor Alice Roberts, favourite lecturer.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:43:25] If there was no like constraints at all time or money or anything, is [01:43:30] there a course you’d jump into tomorrow? Like what? What comes to mind?

Mike Gray: I was, I was signed up [01:43:35] to do, um, and it was hard and soft [01:43:40] tissue, a week of hard and soft tissue augmentation. And I’ve just spent too much money. [01:43:45] Uh, and it was, it’s like an eight grand course literally for a week. Um, and [01:43:50] so yeah, I, I want to get that done. Yeah. Tick that off a. It’d be nice to go to [01:43:55] Italy for the week. Both incredible. And I don’t do sort of block grafting. So that’s. [01:44:00] I need to tick that off and get that done. Because the type of implant work [01:44:05] I do, it’s all the sort of the difficult anterior stuff that people don’t want to do. That’s most of my cosmetic [01:44:10] now. I do a lot of the rehab stuff and that’s where. But a lot of it is, you know, [01:44:15] generally working between canines, often trauma or bad dentistry or that side of it. And so [01:44:20] that’s where I want to tick that block grafting side of things. Um, and yeah, [01:44:25] so.

Payman Langroudi: And what comes to mind if, if I say, um, [01:44:30] dentally, what, what, what if you had to give someone advice about, [01:44:35] do you think you’re qualified to give advice on, on this, like career wise, some, some younger [01:44:40] dentist wants to know what, which direction to go or not necessarily. I don’t want you to say ortho [01:44:45] or endo. Yeah, but, but which mindset to have because the thing I’ve been most impressed with you is [01:44:50] the mindset of like, anything’s possible kind of mindset that you’ve got going on as [01:44:55] long as you obsess into it. Yeah. But it’s also you’ve also got [01:45:00] a real like pragmatic edge to that. Yeah. You know, because, you know, someone can dive [01:45:05] into something and not be pragmatic. Yeah. What would you say? What advice would you give to a young dentist? [01:45:10]

Mike Gray: For me, just a broad foundation I think is fantastic. [01:45:15] Um, it’s difficult again, because and this [01:45:20] sort of ties in with stay in your lane, like, and, uh, because it’s [01:45:25] I’m terrible for this. I used to be even worse when I just graduated. Like, oh, such and such gone [01:45:30] off. And they’ve already done a post-grad training and they’re doing this. Oh, they’ve bought a practice and [01:45:35] you just, you look at yourself and be like, I’m useless. Like, what have I done? And [01:45:40] stay in your lane? And like I said, for me, my dentistry was terrible up until 5 or 6 years ago. [01:45:45] Um, and not terrible. I was decent for not knowing anything, but it wasn’t until I [01:45:50] put in started putting in that effort. Um, and so [01:45:55] it’s, yeah, stay in your lane. Just worry about yourself. Um, and again, social media [01:46:00] is terrible for that, isn’t it, with people portraying what they want to portray and not necessarily reality. [01:46:05] And then, um, it’s that broad foundation. I think [01:46:10] it can be very tempting because you think, oh, everyone’s doing this, I need to do this and I need [01:46:15] to specialise. Um, that you can get sort of [01:46:20] coaxed along into finding your niche too early. Whereas [01:46:25] for me, I had a huge base from surgical to restorative. One of the [01:46:30] profs I was with in the restorative process was endo. So I did a year of microscope endo. [01:46:35] Don’t do any of that now. Use it every day in my case assessment and [01:46:40] things. And so that foundation being so broad means I can, [01:46:45] you know, approach a lot with a, in a sensible way. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:46:50]

Mike Gray: Even things outside of dentistry. You look at the, the mechanics on [01:46:55] the motorbikes and like, you know, metal fabrication or woodwork implants [01:47:00] are a self-tapping screw. I’ve done that a million times in metal and wood and all that side of it. So all [01:47:05] the principles stay the same and you can start then tearing things apart. Because when I’m looking at [01:47:10] implants now and I look at how we, we talk a bolt, which is something it’s crazy how precise we [01:47:15] try to be with implants. We’re so imprecise when we. The simplest thing of screwing [01:47:20] a, a bolt in and we talk it. Because you speak to someone [01:47:25] in a machine shop, which I do regularly when my bikes are falling apart. And that. And it’s like, okay, so talk [01:47:30] well, with the torque wrench, the bolt needs to be in motion when you’re talking. Otherwise, [01:47:35] the minute you stop, you’ve got coefficient of friction involved in that. You should lubricate the torque. What temperature [01:47:40] are things at? And we don’t look at any of that. We just kind of nip it up and it’s done.

Mike Gray: And it’s [01:47:45] so inaccurate and so straight away. Then I’m thinking, okay, how can I do things? So when I do my [01:47:50] implants, I call it a shakedown. When you build a motorbike, you take it out for a ride [01:47:55] and then you get it back and you check all the nuts and bolts and tighten up whatever’s come loose. So [01:48:00] whenever I fit an implant, I get them back two weeks, two months later, after they’ve been chewing on it and [01:48:05] check the torque on that bolt and again, checking the torque, you think, oh, you just nip it up. No, you have to back [01:48:10] it out first so that the bolt is turning without the coefficient of friction [01:48:15] having to overcome that. So you can actually get an accurate torque reading every [01:48:20] time. It will nip up a little bit. And whether that’s because of a temperature change or that side of it. So [01:48:25] when I say my implants out for a shakedown, always nips up a little bit afterwards, and there would be science [01:48:30] behind that. And somebody, somebody do a paper that won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Be verbal skills. Yeah. So because.

Mike Gray: It’s [01:48:35] that. So it’s that broad base.

Payman Langroudi: Debate says his design and tech GCSE [01:48:40] was much more useful is much more useful to him than chemistry [01:48:45] Biology. A level off for me. Agree?

Mike Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah [01:48:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Absolutely. And and it’s it’s that sort of, you know, [01:48:55] that and I and putting into that side of things. So, uh, yeah, broad [01:49:00] based though it can be frustrating, but nothing is wasted in that. And [01:49:05] like I said, there’s so many treatments I don’t do now, but because I’ve had experience and I understand them, it [01:49:10] all helps with building that foundation of the bigger cases [01:49:15] I’m doing now.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the final, final bit of the pod, which [01:49:20] starts off with fancy dinner party. Um, three guests.

Mike Gray: Are. [01:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Mike Gray: No. So for me, it’s it’s, you know, call [01:49:30] it, uh, sort of soft or cuddly or friends and family. [01:49:35] It’s, it’s, uh, like I said, I had the sad thing [01:49:40] of one of my childhood besties passing away, uh, New Year’s. And [01:49:45] would I be more sad if I went for [01:49:50] dinner with somebody famous or somebody passes away? Or [01:49:55] I went for a dinner with my friends and family and it’s I’m going to have the best night with the people. I get on with the. [01:50:00] I can have the most fun joke and laugh. And so yeah, just nearest [01:50:05] and dearest, closest friends. That would be my dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. I don’t normally allow [01:50:10] that sort of answer, you know, but on this occasion I will think on this occasion I will because, [01:50:15] you know, I’m like, you know, come on surely, Gandhi. Yeah. If you could sit with him. [01:50:20] But but on this occasion I will.

Mike Gray: And again, maybe that’s me being blasé because [01:50:25] I’ve been fortunate to meet lots of incredible people. I’ve met world champions, multiple world champions [01:50:30] in sport I’ve met.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t interest.

Mike Gray: You. People at the highest level in music. In [01:50:35] surgery. I’ve been fortunate to meet some of the best surgeons.

Payman Langroudi: That was that bit you did about the peeing [01:50:40] in the toilet? Even even Oasis have to pee in this toilet.

Mike Gray: But [01:50:45] that’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Yeah, that’s a good point. That was from that was from Rockfield Studios.

Mike Gray: So again, [01:50:50] I was fortunate to to have a recording session, Rockfield Studios, which famously Bohemian Rhapsody [01:50:55] was was created on the piano there. And like I said, you’ve had Oasis in there and they [01:51:00] did the album. What’s the what’s the story? Morning glory. And yeah, famously, they [01:51:05] had a microphone in the hallway that picked up some of the birds. So whenever you go there, everyone always puts this microphone in the hallway [01:51:10] and, and records it. But at the end of that hallway, there’s just a, just a grotty little toilet. Um, [01:51:15] and, and it’s funny, I went there to, to use the toilet and [01:51:20] I stood there and looking at this toilet and I’m thinking of all these incredible people that have [01:51:25] had to take a pee in that toilet before me. And it’s like, so again, advice [01:51:30] to anyone out there and young people, all these incredible dentists and things that you’re looking up to, whether you’re looking [01:51:35] up to me or yourself or anyone like that, they’ve all got to pee like you and I. [01:51:40] Yeah. So, uh, yeah, it’s a beautiful story. It’s a beautiful analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Love that man. It’s [01:51:45] been a massive pleasure, dude, a massive pleasure. I really learned a lot from your outlook. Uh, [01:51:50] you know, you say that broad base, but then you dive deep. Yeah. You know, that combination [01:51:55] is facilitates that though.

Mike Gray: And I think that’s, that’s that important side and that [01:52:00] stops you getting trapped.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Mike Gray: Uh, like we said in that, oh, I have to do it this [01:52:05] way because this is how I’m, how I’m told.

Payman Langroudi: So kid on the way, huh?

Mike Gray: Yeah. [01:52:10] Got a baby due end of April, so I’m sure life would change.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Go berserk. Go [01:52:15] berserk from now until the baby’s done. Yeah. Yeah. Like, [01:52:20] go travel with that one year old. Yeah. It’s amazing. Yeah. Number one, you don’t pay your ticket. Yeah. You [01:52:25] know, once you start paying four times a flight to Thailand, you realise. Oh my [01:52:30] God. Yeah. Yeah. Enjoy. Enjoy it as well.

Mike Gray: As the [01:52:35] business side.

Payman Langroudi: Stop and smell the roses, too. Yeah.

Mike Gray: Yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Lovely to have you, man.

Mike Gray: Thank you. No [01:52:40] thank you ever so much. And like I said, absolute pleasure and privilege.

Payman Langroudi: To get a party together. Yeah. [01:52:45] In ministry. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike Gray: I’m looking forward to it. I’m going to be there.

Payman Langroudi: It’s going to be good.

Mike Gray: So, uh. Yeah. [01:52:50] Can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: Sounds incredible. Thanks, man.

Mike Gray: No, thank you so much.

[VOICE]: This [01:52:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:53:00] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:53:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:53:10] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:53:15] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [01:53:20] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:53:25]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:53:30] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:53:35] Thanks.

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