We’re pleased to have Dr Rupert Monkhouse on this week’s show. Rupert’s growing reputation in the world of dentures has led him to become pretty influential as we talk dentistry and Instagram.

Hear us chat about the ins and outs of prosthodontics, the ideal methods and techniques to create the most beautiful dentures and the best ways to communicate with patients.

Rupert shares his experiences in travelling, coaching, swimming and the big switch from NHS to private practice. 



“You know, for any patient, psychology is really, really important… It’s all about sort of drip-feeding your thoughts throughout it. If you tell them it might be a mistake at the start it’s consented. You know, if you say after the fact, then you’re making excuses.” – Rupert Monkhouse


In This Episode


01.16 – Growing up in the Midlands

02:29 – An athlete’s mindset

05.12 – A change of pace

08.59 – 543

16:22 – Prosthodontics

18:10 – Building good habits

23:01 – Ideal materials

25:29 – Gingival focus

31:55 – Travelling

34:59 – Going into teaching

37:53 – Pushing yourself

39:25 – Opening a practice

43:51 – NHS to private

46:05 – The psychology of the patient

48:35 – TMJ

52:02 – From Worcester to the big city

55:28 – Having a partner in the profession

56:43 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Rupert Monkhouse


Rupert is from Worcester and qualified from King’s College in London. He then spent some time in Hull as part of his foundation training before moving back to West London where he still lives today.

Rupert’s main interest lies in prosthodontics where he plans to train further. His reputation as ‘The Denture Guy’ is partly thanks to his growing following on Instagram where he has set the standard for clinical photography as well as quality prosthodontics. 

Away from dentistry, Rupert enjoys travelling, photography and swimming, which he still coaches. You can follow Rupert on Instagram at @dentistrupert and follow the Dental Leaders Podcast at @dentalleaderspodcast.

[00:00:00] You know, for any patient, the psychology are really, really important, but it’s all about trying to gauge if you’re going through the process of making a set of five appointments or whatever it is you end up doing. It’s all about sort of drip feeding your thoughts throughout it, saying it’s very much know people would say it’s if you tell them at the end it’s a mistake, if you tell them at the start it’s 10 cents or whatever. You know, if you say after the fact, then you’re making excuses.

[00:00:29] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki,

[00:00:47] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Rupert Monkhouse onto the podcast, may be known to most of us as dentistry, but on Instagram I come across Rupert, who’s managed to make the unsexy, sexy. Good to have you back

[00:01:05] To just having me on

[00:01:06] The list. We’ll get to how you got so heavily, heavily into removable prosthetics. But let’s start from the beginning. What’s your background story? Where did you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? What kind of kid were you?

[00:01:19] Yeah, I grew up in in the Midlands, in Worcester. And yeah, a lot of what I was doing it sort of early on school days was I was doing a lot of swimming at the time, so I was very heavily involved in that and think dentistry. I got involved sort of 15, 16, a GCSE, I think it was. And I was just at my but my dentist and he was doing fish sealants another and I found it interesting. What’s this? What’s that. And the week for work experience was coming up in the next half term or whatever it was, wasn’t I hadn’t got anything lined up yet. So I said, can I come with you? And that was it. And I thought, this is quite cool and went from there. So it’s sort of solons. It really is not something I’ve been thinking on for ages. And it was just sort of these last two years and I was quite science Yanyuwa. So that had limited myself with subjects. But yeah, it just sort of came from that.

[00:02:11] Did you say swimming?

[00:02:13] Yeah, yeah. I was a competitive summersaults doing like 16 hours a week in the pool. Oh my God. I was in the gym and that kind of stuff until third year of being asked to stop training and then carried on coaching for the last two years at uni. So I didn’t really have much time to do to do anything else

[00:02:29] That, you know, we’ve had a few people on here who were to have athletes of one one description or another. I mean, I’m thinking of Robbie Hughes was a big martial artist and a few. Do you find that that sort of athlete’s mindset, are you applying that to dentistry in any way, you know, that sort of beating yourself and going up against your, you know, being better today than you were yesterday and the discipline and the he said obsession. Do you think it does relate somehow?

[00:03:01] Yeah, I’m definitely quite a perfectionist, but I think I was about that like just personality anyway. But I think definitely of the discipline was is like a really big thing. So, you know, the three days a week I was getting up at quarter five to get in the pool at half past six. So I caught to get in the fourth quarter to six and then go straight to school and that kind of stuff. So you had to balance your work really well and you have to be disciplined with getting stuff done. And like our final was like in fifth year I was coaching rather than actually swimming at the time. But I was in Sheffield for two weeks, the two weeks of finals and I was in Sheffield. Well, I literally had my summer in the morning, went down Saturday exam and came back the same day. And that was there for another week afterwards. And I had to really balance getting all the revision done. And but it gives you that ability to do it because you had to do it. So I think it definitely is a part of that discipline side of it.

[00:03:58] So what level were you swimming at and teaching? Coaching.

[00:04:02] So as a as a swimmer, I went to the Commonwealth Trials 2014, so I was like top twenty. That came seventeenth. And then coaching I coached to National Tewson is where National Medals, British British championship medals under fifteen on the seventeen. Well so pretty, pretty high level.

[00:04:24] And so it’s a way past just the question of swimming. Right. Was everything else, the nutrition side and all, all of that sort of jazz.

[00:04:34] Yeah, definitely. Like sort of the, it was a lot of self-taught stuff, I mean and researching and there’s loads of articles and forums and things and going into that and then the coaching, I’ve I’ve done my qualifications, so I’m not qualified to be a like a head coach if I wanted to and things like that. But that was more just from my own experience of of being an athlete. Yeah. That’s on the of the backup career. If I want day or.

[00:05:01] Commentator Oh yeah.

[00:05:02] Oh that’s great. I’ll be off to Tokyo. The idea.

[00:05:08] So tell me about the Dental school. Where did you qualify.

[00:05:12] I was it kings qualified four years ago out twenty. Seventeen. So that was, that was good. So then I was still doing some training stuff the first couple of years and then it just got too busy after that. So then just sort of but still doing the coaching but not, not getting in the pool and then at King’s up in the up and Guys Tower really enjoyed a bit of a change of pace from little old town of Worcester. So it’s a great place to be in. Such a big school, you meet so many different people then, and we take them, and that’s where a lot of the stuff really started for me because I like children. So they’re very, very passionate. CHUTER you know, those kind of teachers that are sort of dragging you on and who was there in his name is Andre Topolice. He’s back out in Cyprus now, but he was running the Matchbox prosthodontics guys as well. So it was a bit of that. Still, he’s just a fantastic teacher and it really got him enthused. And and he sort of just drove down, sort of let you dive into it. And that’s that’s where it all sort of came from, that really.

[00:06:14] So, I mean, you know, I talk to a lot of people and, you know, it is a standard advice that people give to become really good generalist first and then look at, you know, specialising in. And when I say specialising, I don’t even necessarily mean the specialist, you know, name of being a specialist. But, you know, dialling it into something very specific for me. Some of the most successful people I’ve met in dentistry specialised really early. You know, they started knowing what they wanted to do really, really early on. What do you say to that? I mean, I know you’ve got you’ve got a very good general knowledge of dentistry. And just by listening to your life sessions, you can say that you’re definitely a Dental geek of sorts.

[00:07:00] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:02] But it sounds like you’re saying you’re telling me in your third year of dental school you decided you were going to get dentures

[00:07:10] And that it was definitely in third year. That’s where that started. Yeah, but then in fourth year, I had a really good perio tutor. And I like, you know, I’m sort of one of those I like. I’ll dive into it and then get really, really drawn into it. So then I was like 40. I loved. Yeah. And then in fifth year it was just like just the good life. Really good General Collins tutors and just really enjoyed sort of GDP and it’s very much just just like that. But then the more it moved on, it’s sort of that the pro side of it, I did enjoy more and more. But again, it was just sort of fluky. So I went up to to Yorkshire for my birthday. I went up to hope and they had

[00:07:51] A lot of full. Full. Yeah. Right.

[00:07:55] Yeah. Very, very, very high needs. Very high needs. We have an in-house lab so the technicians on site and you can pop in and plant stuff and chat through things. But we also had the station contract like East Riding of Yorkshire, so they would come in for an assessment and then the next month it was like the first Monday of the month, I think it was. And then the next month they’d come in. And if they hadn’t been made immediate and by their GDP, they got sent to me to make seven dentures. So it meant that erm I, FDR just made tons and tons and tons and just got the ball cap rolling. And then my first practise outside of FDR down the road in Fulham, again, just like really, really high needs and just it just carried on like that and then started the work where I am now with my prosthodontics Dental and I’ve just been as just sort of spiralled like that. It’s just sort of all fallen to guide me down that path.

[00:08:49] There was a practise in how it wasn’t the one year. It wasn’t this gigantic one five something five five,

[00:08:59] Four, three. Yeah it well yeah it

[00:09:02] Was really amazing. Amazing what a place. Just I mean I don’t know what it was like now but I went there maybe twelve years ago or something.

[00:09:15] Are they both houses since then.

[00:09:17] I mean they owned every single house on the block.

[00:09:20] Right. Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:22] And is it still the same. Was that the Doctor Green Bridge.

[00:09:26] So it’s his sons run it now.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:31] But what a crazy place that is. I mean they’ve literally bought every single house on the on the block

[00:09:37] And yeah I think it’s five terraced houses. Might be six now. It’s a crazy place but it was an awesome place to do today and they’re so, so supportive and you could just do whatever you not whatever you want to. But, you know, there’s a one way if you want to be a good GDP in the NHS, doing loads of stuff will teach you that. If you want to focus on doing really nice composite work, go for it. If you want to do loads of whatever it is, is like will help you to do it because there were so many dentists there. I think it’s sort of sixteen, seventeen dentists you’d find even if it wasn’t a training, you could find someone to mentor you and help you with something

[00:10:17] What a crazy cause is. And what were the Christmas parties like? I mean, how many how many people, how, how many employees were there? Just like giant. It was like a Dental hospital.

[00:10:26] Yeah. It must, it must be like fifty, forty fifty surely

[00:10:31] More than

[00:10:33] A massive, massive. I think we had about eight receptionists and nine receptionists or something. Well it probably was over. If they actually but it’s it was an awesome, awesome place and super lucky to have as my foundation because I thought my got it got Leeds or Yorkshire won or whatever it was. And I was, but I wouldn’t change it for the world. I want to I wanted to stay in London. I was hoping to carry on my coaching in South London and things like that. And I was actually quite sort of gutted, really. I sort of got but went back and it was sort of similar to what’s a similar size, similar sort of demographic and things. But then the practise was just completely lucked out. I wouldn’t change it at all.

[00:11:13] And then you went straight from there to a practise in full and you say,

[00:11:16] Yeah, so the big one on the North End Road. And it’s just until I read that the big blue one year 30th is quite it was quite sort of similar similar sort of patient base, similar sort of size as well, because that one’s fourteen surgeries, VSS, isn’t it. Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s huge. There’s two new ones too. And then there’s Bassman as well and there’s an upstairs surgeries too.

[00:11:44] So we should we should, we should let everyone know that. I mean you live five minutes away from the once one seats away from each other. Yeah.

[00:11:53] Not too

[00:11:53] Far. And yet we’re doing this overservice. We should go for that beer right after this.

[00:11:59] You look looking good if you want to follow suit.

[00:12:06] Ok, explain it to me, man, because I’ve got a interestingly similar early story to you as far as prosthetics goes. Yeah, because I did a house job. It was called it was called restorative dentistry, but a good third of it was prosthetics. And and there was a I study in Cardiff. And Cardiff was one of these high needs, sort of awful towns as well. And I had a teacher I had a consultant who I loved as well in Cardiff. You used to just really just make it interesting. And then my job was with a guy called Nick Mahindra. Have you come across him now? So he does this thing now where he raises increases vertical dimension by like ridiculous amounts. Now, this doesn’t seem like such a big thing to do, but back then they used to tell us, you know, like three millimetres at most you can add. And he was like doing thirty, but he was doing it. Indentures was doing in the benches and changing faces. So I watched him. He would even set up the teeth himself, you know, and I remember him getting, you know, talking about sort of the mindset of the the Dental patient and all that. And and then I remember thinking as a young guy, I felt like I just didn’t want to just have older patients, you know? And he was in Harley Street and I used to go over there and everything. And it was that was exciting. And then we looked at bleaching and. But what about you? I mean, do you not think that was the story there? I mean, OK, you like it, right?

[00:13:40] But why not? Why that and not long bleach and blonde. Yeah. Yeah. I like like you said, the changes you can make, I really enjoy that. And the more the more I’ve gotten into it now and the more I’m working with my awesome technician, just all these incredible things, you know, the more I think it’s a blank canvas and you can get a bit arty with a really and you can make massive, massive difference and then you can do it with other bits as well. But I like the planning side of it. I like the big picture and really getting sort of thinking things through. And as you say, like changing, changing over there and opening them up or putting them back in the right position. And almost at the start of side of it, I do sort of always will. Maybe I can do some story. I don’t I don’t mind the Orlando, you know, I could do a bit of a start to move it, but I think I just like the scope that you have with it. And not just I still do all general dentistry, but I just enjoy this and I, I share it only that’s the only stuff I share that I still enjoy all sides of that. I’m not that bothered about cosmetic stuff, but I think it’s more that in the practise that I’m in now, we’ve got the ended on this. We’ve got the periodontist, we’ve got the guy who loves all of his invasion bonds which go, if you’re going to come here, you may as well go and see the guy is going to do it better. And I have no qualms in doing that because I get I get really stressed about doing the bonding and things like that. I just I just feel more comfortable doing doing the pro side of it

[00:15:15] And is is is getting a high needs area. I mean, how are you doing so much for forwork. Are you getting referred it

[00:15:22] So the it’s all private where I am now and it’s mainly referrals or it’s it’s a lot of self referrals. So I’m working under essentially under my boss, Nick Fay. He goes across the dentist and most of the cases. I’ve been sharing on Instagram from literally since we came back from lockdown so that literally within the last eight, nine months and it’s things like when we came back, we’ve been running sort of adverts for teeth in a day and things like that. And if they that comes through and they say maybe it’s not quite what I had in mind or budget or whatever they say, or you can have a sense of self complaints and then they come my way. So that’s why I’m doing a lot of cases. Actually, it came from it came from that. And the girls on the phone know now that if someone calls asking about dentures, they get some strange as a new patient rather than one of the other generalists.

[00:16:18] But are you not going to get involved with implant retained and

[00:16:22] See, I do some I do the actual I’m starting to move the prosthodontics side of it. So the Fed, if they are going to have a property in danger. Yeah. Then if they currently don’t have implants, they get sent to me to make the complaints and then they have them for a couple of months and then they review again with Nick. And then Nick uses that and says, right, well, this is the procedures we’re happy with. I need to put the implants here, here, here and here in the right position does it and then retrofits them onto that. So that’s how we started to do it now. And we’re looking at these can do the training with with all of us training on more of the restorative side of it as well to look at doing that. And I do want to pursue it more. I’m looking at applying to sort of empty and then in the next few years, hopefully, and then go down that route. Yeah, yeah. But it’s just finding the finding the time to even be a part time for years and the money as well.

[00:17:18] That’s a big commitment. It’s a big,

[00:17:20] Massive commitment there. And there is definitely the group. I think I want to go down, but I’m still sort of figuring out how do I want to do a Start-Up, 95 percent certain that that’s the way I’m going to go.

[00:17:32] So give us give us some clues. I mean, look, there are some people going to be listening to this thinking this is a lost art. And, you know, it’s like something something they’re not going to be doing much. I mean, I’m thinking of first, my wife works in a city practise with within an insurance company that I’m sure she’s not doing much removeable at all like four years. But there are clearly other people who are doing quite a lot of prosthetics. So for you, what are what are some of the key points that most dentists don’t know and should know or could know easily? Most. Most of us are missing out.

[00:18:10] The main thing is, is on the impressions side of things. I think it’s everyone falls into really bad habits really, really quickly. And it’s not very straight. And don’t try. And the mouth just put the alginate in there and go for it. Rather than adapting your primary, try and using different materials and build in that impression and things like that. That’s a big thing that we’ve tried. You mentioned the lives and stuff we’ve been doing and we’ve been doing a few about above that kind of thing. I think it’s something that people just don’t you get taught it, but then it’s just so easy to fall into those bad habits when you come when you come out and go into a mixed practise practise and you’ve got 50 minutes to do a set of primary impressions. And it’s, you know, go, go, go and get it sorted. But, yeah, I think that’s that’s part of it. But you say like it’s a diet, but there’s still aspects of it, even if you’re not doing it that are important. So if you’re doing important work and you’re doing a full Arche, it’s still the basics of how to make a complete Danja OBD aesthetics or if you’re doing cosmetic stuff as well, it’s still small design is still using those principles. So even if you’re not going to touch the Dental special tree over again, the principles of it are still really, really valuable. Even if you’re doing Edmondo, looking at your ratios and things like that, it’s important to appreciate that.

[00:19:30] You’re right. I mean, back back in my day, the only thing we would have been taught about small design, would it be in prosthetics? But what about when you qualified? Was there anything else?

[00:19:42] No, it’s I think it

[00:19:43] Was Dental course. Does it move over?

[00:19:45] It doesn’t change. It doesn’t have I I was just I met a couple of friends the other night and we were chatting about how we’re all doing these tabletop onlies and things and bondies stuff that we weren’t we weren’t all from conventional teaching in fourth year, fixed prosthodontics or whatever it was. As you do that, you go and do these courses or you read these biomimetic articles or whatever. And if again, we’re being told this thing, I only graduated four years ago from, you know, this great place in London. Why are we is it hasn’t it hasn’t moved that much. And we didn’t I think it’s one of those things that you do a day of Implanon, a day on impulse. You do maybe a day or one lecture on this is what this is or it’s you know, someone comes in and does an after after uni thing for the Dental society on small design or something like that. But it’s still not part of it. I think that’s not what the universities are for making Vitrano, although they’re not making private dentists or anything like that. But it’s still is principles of that. And you’ve still got to break it down into those basic building blocks and then you can use it. And it’s sort of that’s that’s why I think with the prosthodontics as well, there’s not is seen as a bit of a dark art, but there are still there it is. But it’s still sort of there are the basic principles. And then you just extrapolate on those and you can work out more difficult things.

[00:21:14] Yeah, I know. I know you do this thing, the Impression Club. Right. But is there digital? Can you take scans of potential disasters or not? So I don’t know.

[00:21:24] So some people think, yeah, so I’ve done I did a case where we used a digital file to make a set of special trays simply because we were it was a case that was being planned for some implants and naked, already done the work up and all this. And he’s got a digital wax up and things like that. And then he the patient had some medical issues and couldn’t go through with it at the time, but needed some teeth. So so as I I’ve got space tomorrow and my lab on Dental place printed off these prints off the files and made me a tray. And I picked it up that evening and we did the impressions the next day. But it’s still got its I don’t think the potential of

[00:22:04] It’s the second we wouldn’t be able to do the.

[00:22:07] Yeah, it’s because I’m not going to get aggressive. Yeah. You don’t, you don’t know what the. Yeah. You don’t want the tissues are but also actually getting back to the main things that you want. Yeah. You can’t, you can’t get a functional sulcus, you can’t really get right back and get the tuberose these really nice or retracting the cheeks out of the way because the scan doesn’t do that. So this tray that I had was really, really short. Actually spend longer adapting it with silicone or whatever, that I may as well just toss a stock three hours and probably even got the same impression, but twice as fast. So I think for certain things, like maybe making a little bounded saddle chrome denture, but the digital, you might be added to it, but still always be taking a conventional secondary because it’s just I don’t think it’s there yet.

[00:22:54] And as far as materials, what are your favourite materials for full and for partial

[00:23:01] Silicon, silicon, for anything that’s adventurous and the primary impression and then alginate on top and then for the is for Parshall’s is alginate and retentionist is silicon putty like body image and body depending on the size of the underlying tissue so that you’ve got more balance. If the pressure Seper Lightbody where you’ve got loose tissue and medium body, where you’ve got firmer tissue, and Putsy, where you’ve got really, really strong tissue so that across the board you’ve got a nice, nice balance with silicon silicon all the way for the attention of the don’t touch, don’t touch the constitutional level.

[00:23:40] The issue is that just you or is that is that the way it’s a.m..

[00:23:46] I had a while ago, actually, since I sent the case to two and 200 to that changed of third. And it was like, what are you doing is greenstick? And Zawia, like I taught you for years. And I was I’m just trying this. I’m just trying this. The silicon stuff based out of the guy in Japan, Dr. Arby. So that’s sort of based on reading around what he’s doing there. Yeah, they’ve all got that place and certain things. It’s that I just prefer the handling of the silicon’s and it just works reliably for me. I know that it works well as I try and do something else and then worry that I’m not going to get the result that I want.

[00:24:23] And then as far as registration, are you doing something different to what we were all talked

[00:24:29] About in this RIM’s nothing too fancy. Haven’t really mentioned the Gothic arch tracing it. It’s I need I need to probably just to see if it’s going to make I haven’t felt the need to, but I probably haven’t had enough cases where I probably needed to to get it done. So I had my my one to one on the line with Ellenburg. And so that was good. Yeah. So I know I need to do it now for this one.

[00:24:55] The really the really beautiful thing about the work that you’re putting in is for me, OK, you’ve got you’ve got the, the small rotations and the teeth and so on, but the gingiva the thing. So I guess that’s the technician. Right. Are you, have you got input in that. Well, how does that work? I mean, how do you make something so life. I even noticed you had the attached bit was darker than the which is when you think about it. Why haven’t we always done that? But how does that work? Do you have to sell that to the patient that it’s going to be? Or do you discuss it with the patient? How does that work?

[00:25:29] Yes, and even even the rotations and things, you know, we sort of start from the get go and even that the consultation. I’ve obviously got a bunch of photos of different cases now. And I sort of say, you know, you can have this, you can have this. I was initially doing like a two tiered sort of system. But generally now where with where I’m at now, I’m just I’m just doing the fancy ones, the sort of this is what we do. And if you want if you don’t want to have that, you can have the guns more simple if you want to. But it’s all it’s all the same sort of thing. But yeah. You sure. In a few cases and see what they like. Some people don’t don’t want a really fancy gun work and it’s fine. Or we get them to bring in pictures and stuff for the angles of the teeth and things like that. So that’s all sort of the patient feeds that in that the gun work is all with photos. So we’ve got actually a ginger shade died. So my my technician, Ricardo, he works exclusively with either cloud product. So I’ve got an overclassified guy out of all these different shades of paint and he’s got some more purples and yellowy tins and things like that. So it’s about six six thirteen different colours and exactly the same as you would be taking shade guys photos for teeth, the lips and take the three photos of the three different tabs. So then he can sort of see the idea of what the gums look like anyway. And then he’s got all the different colours and he actually processes that is normal and then he’s adding those on. That’s actually a composite of different coloured composites that he’s actually adding over the top and then glazes the whole thing. And this is actually additional layers that he’s adding onto it rather than coming out of the flask in one piece like that.

[00:27:11] And what’s what’s been the reaction of of young dentists to, you know, putting these beautiful pictures on Instagram? And it’s the last place I mean, you know, these platforms sort of, you know, developed in the. But if three years ago you told me the going to be a guy who’s going to be taking pictures of complete dentures and making them. Exciting and sexy on black with with reflections, I believe that was supposedly people’s reaction. I mean I mean, you must have inspired a bunch of people.

[00:27:44] I I’d like to think I think I get a lot of a lot of really nice feedback. I do see a few people doing a few pictures and it’s quite, quite similar. It’s cool. It’s no one’s no one’s original. Someone was doing the same kind of things as well that I haven’t seen nothing. And it’s all about the photos of soldiers. What Menasche pictures on his phone. When did that cause? Two years ago. And I thought, well, I’m going to do it for what I want to do that I had really, really nice feedback. And I think more people, just obviously people were doing Dental cases. But I’m seeing more maybe I’m just following more people, but I’m definitely seeing more people who are doing on the page sort of composite work and actually posting the odd Dental case, which is almost that people weren’t thinking, well, let’s not share the Dental cases, but yeah. Yeah, definitely. And more more of it coming up. Which is which is cool. Yeah.

[00:28:37] I mean, the thing is, we were all trained in that much more than we were trained in composites. So it kind of it kind of takes you back to that whole whole bit of Dental story. But at the same time, it’s interesting, you know, that that is still the case. I really didn’t think that thought. I thought by now the Dental course would be much more sort of digital planning, none of that. Right. Scanning or scanning both

[00:29:04] Of your calls. So you knew it existed. You knew it existed. But we didn’t we didn’t have a scanner on the postgrads to the postcard. Obviously, they have scanners and things like that because they have to do all that side of it, that we didn’t have anything outside that that maybe it’s changed in the last four or five years, that it’s still not not a

[00:29:26] True even even in the last four or five years, a lot’s changed in scanning in terms of the penetration market penetration of it. Yeah. What else do you get up to, man outside of work? What’s your biggest interest?

[00:29:41] Well, I was doing a bit of coaching still for the swimming stuff that the covid sort of killed that off. And I don’t do normal photography, not adventures that again, covid sort of curtailed that a bit because it was more when I would travel. I’d try and go away sort of two or three times a year and do photography there. Obviously, living and living in London, you can still go and do some some nice photography. So I spend spend most of my time doing doing that and just sports in general. Watch a bit of a bit of cricket. Maybe I might get roped into a Sunday game next week. I think the shorts some players, I’m going to go and turn the arm over, but yeah, photos, not adventures is usually what I’m doing. And I found that I’m just doing more and more of the work, work, photography, so I need to bring it back the other way, I think.

[00:30:26] So were you a photographer before you were Dental photographer?

[00:30:32] Yeah. So I’ve been doing sort of photography as a sort of serious hobby for about five years. Mostly I like stuff about being in London at uni and going around it then travels and saw landscape photography and cityscape photography and things like that. So I knew I knew my way around a camera before I went on. Yeah, that’s one of these goals and stuff. Yeah. So it’s then that that’s the beauty of our course is that it’s still had so much, so much to offer because you have the full range of people on that course and still somebody within 100 which we which to hold on sort of thing that you can catch up on. But the BBC, that is the whole black backdrop things of that is so simple to do once you know how to do it. But it just until you know how to do it is it’s crazy, but says I still enjoy it. And that’s why I think partly I do all these do all these Instagram photos, because it’s just it makes me enjoy the work that I’m doing. And I enjoy the sight of him making a nice picture, whether it’s over a mountain range somewhere or of an impression, I just enjoy the process of actually producing it, producing an image.

[00:31:48] And when you when you went on your travels, what were the most beautiful places that you saw and photographed?

[00:31:55] We did Machu Picchu a couple of years ago, and we did all the mountains and lakes and the salt flats in Bolivia and the same trip, which is pretty awesome. And just all of all of Vietnam, just the most beautiful place that we tried to get around a fair bit in the last few years that we did in the last 18 months, not doing anything. So, yes, it means that work since taking over, isn’t it? That has been the same for you. Just suddenly realised that I’ve been back for 12 months straight and not really taking a break. I think it’s quite

[00:32:27] Interesting at the moment. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, it’s not the same for me because I’m not clinical. Right. But but my wife is so. So I get the I get the feedback and I mean, it’s weird that it’s now kind of normal, right. That you what you’re having to do in the clinic and everyone’s just accepted that it is what it is. And I don’t know, I find she’s much more tired now when she’s come back from a day of work than than she used to be before all the precautions and at the PPE and all that. But at the same time, you know, she’s been really lucky to have almost a single dentist who’s not happy. Obviously, there’s the associate story. Some associates have been treated badly and there’s the technician story. Quite a lot of technicians. The NHS was definitely in issues. You’ve got a lot of technicians follow you, right?

[00:33:22] Yeah. Yeah. I’d say probably 30, 40 percent of them are actually technicians,

[00:33:27] Whether because of the just because of the work.

[00:33:31] I think some people think I’m a technician as well. Generally, I think I think they do think I’m a technician. Yeah. I think they just enjoy seeing their work or what they do highlighted in the way that it isn’t normally highlighted, I guess. And and my guys, Ricardo, is very, very, very good at what he does. So it’s it’s almost that. And because all my stuff is exclusive, he has you know, it’s almost it’s it’s a fanpage for him almost. So the technicians will want to follow that. Yes. But I think as well, they like a lot of the feedback we get from the technicians is how I talk about what I do and how I go about it and the relationship I have with Ricardo. And I think they don’t always feel that they get that level of communication or whatever it is back. So I think they quite that’s a lot of the feedback I get as well, is that it’s a bit different maybe than what they get from from their clinicians

[00:34:30] When you look back at your your short career. But for your your sort of back story and how it’s all panned out, there’s an element of discipline from the sports. There’s an element of teaching from the sports. Yeah. Do you think that’s the way you’re going to go? You’re going to be a teacher? I feel like, you know, it’s one of those things anyone could or could not be a teacher, but some people really thrive in it.

[00:34:59] Yeah, I just I definitely enjoy I think I’d love to go back to the guys and do a Friday afternoon or something, and I definitely would want to go and do some decent teaching a bit down the line. And yeah, I enjoy the sort of that’s where the live sessions started out, was partly saying, well, let’s go through a few cases. Men, men retire to go through a few cases, partly to stop or to give me something to quickly send when I received the same didn’t like all the time. But how to do something like his his a thirty minute video and then it just sort of shifted a little bit because I had good feedback and people saying Do you want to do one. But that was partly the intention of it as well, was to do a bit of sort of almost indirect teaching that just sort of share the passion, share the knowledge as I guess. But no, definitely, definitely enjoy the teaching side of it is and still be quite happy to retire as a swimming coach at some point as well. Really? Yeah. That love still go back to that, although in twenty five years or something go back and do that. He’s ever coached by us. He was going round with a with a walking stick. I think he coached until the day that they all over the great fun,

[00:36:11] The essence of it man. I mean the few swimming lessons I’ve had. I was surprised, amazed at the the difference. Keeping your fingers together, you know what I mean? Like the small changes you can make in Sydney and the huge difference that makes. What’s the essence of it? Could you tell? Could you tell? Someone’s going to be amazing when you first start teaching them. Can you turn them into something amazing? How important is. And how important is physiology

[00:36:39] Is that you can definitely you can definitely see talent, you can do anything. This is the same thing that you said about like dentists is all that you’ve seen on the courses and things that you can see the talent, but you’ve got a bunch of sort of junior some, as you can see, which ones are and whether it’s a physical talent. You know, they’re naturally a foot and a half taller than everyone else or hyper mobile, hyper flexible. That was me. I got my knees and got me shoulders. The 30 percent more mobile than they should be helpful. Yeah, you get extra range of movement and things like that. And and so you get you get that side that you can see. It’s still hard work. I still I wasn’t the most talented athlete. I worked really hard. I worked smart. I was talented, more talented than than some, but definitely. And that’s why I never got that that extra I got the top the top 20 or whatever it was, you know, is never going to make the make the team that I had friends and did junior level far more far more talented people.

[00:37:43] How does that how does that feel when you’ve been doing that amount of training and then you realise you’re not going to make it? And I mean, it must be soul destroying in a way, too, right?

[00:37:53] I mean, I, I never I never thought I would, you know, it was never I loved the sport. I loved doing it. I was really happy to get to get to the championships, get to the trial. Then that was that was enough. That was basically I got to that as some of that event. I said, yeah, I’ll do I’m quite happy here because I could carry on for the next two years at uni and not and not get any better and not make that final two percent to do it. And that’s what you do when you say you’re doing something like the fine margins as it was, is it sounds bonkers when I said it’s sort of two percent, three percent. And that’s that’s what it is. You know, if I was ninety eight. Ninety seven percent of the way, that’s all, isn’t it, then it was never I just love the sport and love doing it and it’s that personal thing again. If you can’t use racing against yourself, if you don’t know you’re up against other people, but you can sort of always push yourself internally. And that was the day I stopped when I knew that I’d done everything I could. I’ve given it a given everything. And that’s fine, because I think it’d be worth it if I felt like I’d, you know, not push myself as hard or done something.

[00:39:03] You did your best and you feel good that.

[00:39:04] Yeah, because I knew that I’d reached the absolute limit I could I could reach, which is higher than I ever expected. So, yeah, I know. I’ve no sort of regrets with that.

[00:39:14] At your stage in the game, are you thinking of. You know, I’m not I’m not saying you’re going to open a practise tomorrow, but are you thinking of opening a practise one day? And what do you what do you think

[00:39:25] From that of the. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think initially a while ago I thought about it. And I think it’s more that you think I would be really cool except accepted practise in like high. But for mates that we just have a laugh and and we’ll all do our little things that we enjoy doing. But I think it’d be a long way away. It’d be something would be quite enjoyable. But obviously the the other side of it, there’s a lot of the business side and the obviously the stresses that will go with that and highlights it massively with, you know, with Kobe must be such a tough time for the principles, especially that Woodbridge we made a big expansion and stuff and put two, three, three new surgeries in the year before and things like that. And there must have been very tough on on the bosses and stress that people are seeing all around the country that people are in those kind of concerns. It’s not quite quite like turning up and do my thing and then going to do something else.

[00:40:19] Yeah, it’s a nice time. I remember very well the bit between qualifying and doing something serious, like starting a business is a beautiful thing. And as much as it’s it’s impressive when people qualified, open and practise quickly missing out on that piece, it’s almost it’s almost like that bit. I don’t know, you’re going out with a girl, but you’re not married to her sort of feeling. Well, it’s a lovely time that some people miss out on you. I found in my day, in my time that that was a real defining time for me where you’re still so energetic about your new career and and you’d be amazed that the moves you’re making now, you will end up being really amazing, like building blocks of the final things you become. But when I say starting practise, do you share with me that when I was at your stage, I keep on thinking, wow, you know, I can do so much better than this. By the way, I’m not saying Knicks practise, and that’s a great practise. Right. But as as as a young as a young guy, you know, you have ideas this share some ideas with us.

[00:41:28] But I think I always I always joke with it because because. Because I’m living in. I’m living in and I’m travelling out. All that, you know, they always mention and in sort of huddles means like, oh yeah, let’s hope ambitions at some point to open a second practise and like, you know, Richman’s quite nice and

[00:41:49] I could help you in that one, maybe

[00:41:52] As I always have a bit of a joke with them about that. But at this stage I’m at the moment, I would never dream of running a place. I just think, yeah, I just

[00:42:04] I think I’d be quite good at it, though, dude, because a lot of a lot of things about the teaching thing is about communicating and and in the end, running a practise is all about that and communicating your vision. Yeah. To to others.

[00:42:19] Yeah, I think it would be the kind of thing I’d enjoy doing, but I feel like this at this stage now, you know, it’s I like if I’ve got anything, I can go to any of the other senior guys and get some advice on something I’ll feel if I was the boss, I need to be giving all those answers that I just don’t feel that I have. You know, we’re still while we’re all we’re all learning, always Dental practises and that we’re all still learning in that path. But and I think as well, I’ve got a lot of sort of loyalty to Nick and Sarah because of the way that I’ve ended up there. It’s very much sort of they took a took a chance on me and I’m more than I’m over the moon to be working in a place like that full time at the stage of my career that I am.

[00:43:02] Is that your first first private job? Did did.

[00:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. So I started I started the two months after finishing up on Saturdays because I met Sarah during F day whilst on a course in Birmingham. I won tickets for it. It was in Birmingham. I was in how. We’ve got to take two tickets. You can apply for them as the deanery and I was I’ll go home for the weekend afterwards. I’ll be all right. I won them and then end up chatting to this lady and did. And then a year later I started and some subsidies. And then a year later I started shadowing Nick on a Wednesday morning. And then it just sort of when my mother so it just all sort of fell into place that way. And I just yeah, I’m so happy to be where I am. I don’t think the change

[00:43:51] Of pace from NHS to private. Tell me about how that felt the first day, because that’s a great day, scary day to day lives.

[00:44:00] I mean, the actually doing it switching over full time was that was the bigger change rather than when I started just doing some Sacerdote is sort of like because you try and get in the mode of even when you’re doing your and it just sat there trying to book in more of these sort of private work and things like that. So when I first was just doing the alternating exercise, it didn’t feel like that that big a step when it was suddenly all the time just in private, that definitely felt like a big a big change because it was, um, sort of coming off the the rush of doing like thirty patients and then. Yeah. Going the next day of doing sort of a Sunday. I’m always seeing a 10, 12 patients or whatever it is. And that was where it felt really different. But it’s enjoyable as well because I said you can do the work you want to do. That’s the beauty of what I said is and if I want to do an end, I’ll do it. If not, then the doctors can do it. That’s the the beauty of it. You can just focus on taking time and doing the things that you like

[00:45:05] As far as your reputation builds and your reputation is building quite beautifully in the profession for someone at your stage. But as your reputation builds in the community for being the denture guy. So it’s funny that one thing you’ll find maybe you’ve already found is you’ll get people coming to you with more psychological problem than a clinical patient. Maybe tell me if this has happened to you already where you feel like based on all the parameters that you you’re in control of, everything looks pretty good. You’re getting you’re getting suction everywhere and everything’s really stable. Everything’s great, looks good. And yet the patient’s unhappy. And what tends to happen is it’s the better you get, the more you attract that crowd of people who never you know, the is not in the mouth. It’s it’s it’s different. Have you come across it? It’s you definitely.

[00:46:05] Will I look forward to this? I’m not I can’t I wouldn’t have had anything, anything like that. Yeah. But I think the the psychology of it is for any patient is massive. For any patient. The psychology is really, really important. But it’s all about trying to gauge if you’re going through the process of making a set of Dental five appointments or whatever it is you end up doing. It’s all about sort of drip feeding your thoughts throughout it. So it’s it’s very nice. Yeah. People would say it’s if you tell them at the end it’s a mistake, if you tell them at the start it’s ten seconds or whatever. You know, if you say after the fact then you’re making excuses. So you’ve got to try and break down and work out. But it’s just sometimes with those kind of patients say that it’s a classic like five or the other way. And it’s like the classic one that turns up with six, six punches in a bag. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes actually I think just sit there and just have a chat and work out rather than doing the same thing for the seventh time and just sort of um because you do have it anyway. You sort of, you say, oh it’s just the patient. I just a bit so let’s just get on with it and get them out of the chair.

[00:47:16] And I don’t mean to be dismissive of. Because a lot of Dental patients haven’t been served very well at all. Yeah, and and so I’m not saying that at all, but having hung with neck, my neck doing includes doing you know, he was a very high end dentures, but very high end anything. If you talk to the to the top guys, they’ll tell you this. When you build a reputation, that’s what happens. You tend to attract that patient sometimes. I remember, you know, I told you I had a mentor who was into process. And he said when a patient used to say they’re too tight, you should get angry about that. That used to really get to who he would. He would turn around and he’d say, no problem, I’m going to put them on the Dental stretcher and then we’d walk out together and would have an espresso. We’ve come back and it’s the end of the great, you know,

[00:48:15] The bentgrass technique, putting it just putting it on the side behind and doing something and making it sound like,

[00:48:21] You know about that.

[00:48:24] Is that running the running the straight handpiece behind and just sort of just pretending it is tapping on something else like that, you know, sitting up. The psychology is massive. The psychology is massive.

[00:48:35] Yeah. Are you also involved with the TMJ sort of issues or

[00:48:41] Do the odd. I do the odd splinter, the odd little bit that nothing nothing that much. It’s certainly something I want to look into more

[00:48:48] As an element of crossover,

[00:48:51] Where you can look at it from those occlusal areas and you know, and working into it like that. I think that’s that’s probably the next course. But it is jazzes. Yeah, of course. And then down the road for me and reading so much by that, that that’s that’s the kind of thing there is so many people have, I assume. And it’s something that’s so under so under undertreated. Yeah. I’ve had a couple of ones wrote me these little little chest side sort of kig to sort of see if it works. I’ve done a few of those and I’ve worked really nicely now and I found that really interesting. I thought, wow, this works and there’s got to be more, more to this than I’ll just fall down that rabbit hole as well.

[00:49:35] So and I saw something on your Instagram that was like a windowed Sackets special tray was that

[00:49:45] The fibrous, red, flabby ridges, so that we’ve got the lower, lower teeth usually going up against an upper comp.. Yeah. Turns the insides of a pillar and all that kind of area more fibrous and so on. Yeah. So if you do a uniform impression, you’re going to compress that to make one area more than the other. And then when you put the acrylic in, it’s going to just squeeze into that and then it slips down at the back. You lose the sale and falls out. So you do your window impression, do exactly the same and complete that you’ve you’ve asked for a hole in the tray over the area. So then the material flows through the press they right in and then take it out. You cut out the window, press it back in again, and then just lightly syringe the light body over the top. So then it’s only the weight of the silicon’s pressing there. And then the technician relieves a little bit foil so that actually when they’re fully loading it in, it doesn’t actually touch. It’s almost like the the fibrous issues hanging inside. So then there is uniform support. It doesn’t go anywhere.

[00:50:50] You’ve got you’ve got you’ve got compression everywhere else, but not there.

[00:50:54] Yeah, absolutely. So then when when it is loaded, everything else is compressed and that there is still not being contacted at all

[00:51:01] And then you don’t. Is that is that a similar story for those Tauri.

[00:51:05] Three, if you want to get away from those and then release them? Because they tend to be very painful because they’re so the Geneva so thin over those edges, relieve those and sometimes in the impressionable in the trail, get them to put a little relieving area not necessary. Do it like a window, but just allow the material to flow out a little bit so there’s not as much there.

[00:51:28] It’s amazing coming back to

[00:51:32] Rewind the clock back. Yeah, yeah,

[00:51:33] Yeah it is for me. Yes it is. But it is, it’s, it’s funny man. I think it holds a special place for us all. You know, your education to doesn’t it takes you back to the how was it coming from a small town like Worcester. Worcester was three was the worst I know was the worst. To the big city.

[00:52:02] Yeah, is it I mean, it was it’s everything’s different when you go to it anyway. I mean, I’ve got family in London as well, so we would we would do pretty well. More West at my aunt’s actually up the road in Fulham as well. So I know the side a bit more. But it was it was exciting. It’s always different, isn’t it? I think going to as I said, the big cities is a bit of a change. But I’ve stuck around for another eight years, so there must have been. What do you

[00:52:29] Think’s going to happen? You think you’re going to end up going back eventually to Worcester?

[00:52:34] Yeah, and I don’t think I was working for a little bit in Worcester early last year before I had to said she was able to go in full time and ready, which is the things that it was quite nice was then I was doing even more travelling and I was bouncing, bouncing sort of up and down and staying with family and things like that. So it was quite nice because I tend to I’m one of those people I to go home for like six months at a time. So it’s quite nice to go back, go back to of every week. But I enjoy it, I enjoy it down here. I think I would mind drifting a little bit further out, maybe a little bit less of a commute. But at the moment. Yeah, but it’s a good it’s good that today, as

[00:53:15] You know, I’m kind of new. I’m kind of new in Fulham. I’m kind of new for them. So I’m just finding my way, really. I still I still feel much more at home in North London. My office is there and I was brought up, brought up there. So every time I go back that way, I’m like, this is home. But it is nice. Yeah. I mean, the Champions League was what they call that they.

[00:53:39] Did you hear all that last night. It was pretty is pretty rowdy. Yeah. We were walking back after the game and it was obviously a lot closer to the stadium than you are, but it was round last night.

[00:53:51] I could hear it from here. There you must have heard it all.

[00:53:53] Yeah. Yeah, it was it was great. We had loads of sirens as well, which is.

[00:53:57] Yeah. Yeah I saw that. I saw that. It reminded me of my days in A&E

[00:54:03] And the flashbacks.

[00:54:06] Yeah. Yeah. Because I did this house job that was half restorative half surgery. And I remember in Cardiff. Yeah. When it was a lovely day during the day you have this bittersweet feeling of tonight. It’s going to be tough. Yeah, it’s

[00:54:22] Going to be a go.

[00:54:24] Yeah. And when it was a rugby game would depend on who was playing. But if it was Wales, England, there was going to be trouble that night. And it’s funny because during the day it was a wonderful day and the night would be, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever done any like man, is it a proper, tough, tough evening, you know, stitching up faces and, you know, undoing the good work of the bouncers. Of course.

[00:54:58] I mean, I haven’t done that side of it. I mean, my my my girlfriend. I’m I’m a flatmate here. They’re both they both on their visas and backpacks and things like that. Yeah. So I’ve heard all the stories. Not for me, not for that.

[00:55:12] So you think that you your girlfriend, you said was doing some teaching in F.T. said. Right.

[00:55:19] Yeah. Teaching is looking do some also. So doing all that side of it.

[00:55:25] Did you guys meet in the Dental school.

[00:55:28] Third year. They’re paired up partners.

[00:55:33] We had the I met my wife in Dental school to actually put the thing I found with you know, some people think having having a person, the partner who’s in the profession is difficult because, you know, you’re constantly talking about that. And I liked it. I liked it a lot. You know, I like it a lot in so much as, you know, you can you can you can talk to someone about it.

[00:55:56] Yeah, they can. And you can share that passion with it as well. It’s sometimes there are times the other other you want to think about it for that. But I think it works, it works well to sort of share that. And they talked about it if you want to. I think it would be tough to have a bad day or something. And not everyone has a profession that is everyone’s bad days in every profession is different as well. So definitely helpful. And she’s also probably the reason why we move not too far, because she’s a north west London Iranian as well. So she really took off is to get it down to Fulham.

[00:56:30] So it’s like, well, all right, buddy. Well, perhaps not here to ask his final questions.

[00:56:41] I was going to avoid them.

[00:56:43] Okay. You are a bit too young. You’re too young. You are a bit too young for it. But I didn’t ask you about your biggest clinical mistakes. Are these people going to have to ask you the. It’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your loved ones around you. One of the three pieces of advice you can leave them with.

[00:57:05] Things I’ve been thinking about this all day, and I still don’t know

[00:57:09] If it’s your final is your final swimming lesson,

[00:57:16] I think I think based on sort of my sort of work pathway so far, I think the first thing. But I take opportunities and take your chances and sort of trust. Trust. Well, it is this is a swimming thing, I would say, without trust the process. And I believe that you’ve got the right idea of what you’re doing and you’re going to do it and you’re doing the right thing and just take chances, take the opportunities that arise because. Yeah, because chances are it’ll work out so. And if it if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. But I think just trust that, you know what you’re doing, you know where you want to go, and that this is going to be the right thing for it. And I guess it’s sort of the same kind of thing, but especially if you’re in this situation that you last. I think I just do things because the things I experience things or whatever it is, because what you I think you’ll regret things. You don’t do so much more than things that you do that take yeah. Take say yes to things. Go and travel and learn, learn new things and learn to meet different people and do things like that. And then I’ll steal it. Paraphrase a Savage Garden song and don’t don’t let the sun set on an argument then get a bit angry because life’s too short. I just get on it and get it done. Well that day.

[00:58:33] That is good advice. Although Prav discussions are three parts, I wonder if you wonder whether his next question is kind of it’s kind of similar, but it’s a legacy question. Rupert Monkhouse was. How would you like to be remembered

[00:58:54] As the guy that my Dental is set to get in there? I think I’d want to be remembered. I’d like to think I’m that person that you could call in data. Dependable. Yeah. Yeah. That if you needed them, that would be. That would be a. And also, my dentist actually

[00:59:17] Gets security as final question, I’ve got a feeling I know where it will be. Got 30 days. Yeah. To do whatever you want to do.

[00:59:30] Hojjati. A lot of them said trouble, yeah, that is the thing is, I mean, it’s difficult for me because my mom hates travelling. She won’t fly. She likes flying. So I wouldn’t get to spend over 30 days away. I’d have to spend some time. Some time here

[00:59:46] Would be put on a train

[00:59:48] Together with me on the other side,

[00:59:51] Hyperloop. By the time it comes to your last 30 days, there will be other relatives. Maybe. Let’s imagine your mom can come a long way.

[01:00:00] But we’ve we’ve been having this thing. We’re trying we’re trying to do the the wonders of the world before we turn 30. And we’re doing all right. I was three. I was three down.

[01:00:08] But what are the wonders of the world?

[01:00:12] Great Wall of China. Oh, Machu Picchu, Colosseum. I see you on one side. And that’s the end in Christ the Redeemer. Yeah, Christ the Redeemer. In Brazil, we forget mortar fire. That was the plan. So I think that they’re pretty cool. Thirty days to get around the world and just go and say, just go and see the awesome things. Because if he is going to China and you go on the Great Wall and you say the pretty clever and some amazing stuff happens and yeah, go there, go and take off the Seven Wonders, do it and one dig around the world. And they’re dragging them kicking and screaming when their guys.

[01:00:54] It’s been lovely having you

[01:00:55] Really enjoyed it. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.

[01:01:00] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders multistorey.

[01:01:10] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because

[01:01:28] I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:01:40] And don’t forget our six star rating.

This week’s show features Harley Street Periodontist, teacher and entrepreneur Dr Reena Wadia.

Reena chats about London life and her journey to running her own business on Harley Street as well as sharing an invaluable insight into reaching for the stars.

Hear Reena cover life as a specialist periodontist, managing social media, building your own business and a successful personal brand.



“If you don’t enjoy something, there’s no point doing it, like find something you enjoy and make that your career and make that your life” – Reena Wadia


In This Episode


02.00 – London living

04:05 – Last years of uni

05.08 – Giving 100%

06.36 – Specialising in perio

12:28 – Dedication to study

17:00 – The most junior periodontist in the country

18:16 – Building a network

22:35 – Cosmetic perio

27:49 – Going into business

31:44 – Team values

38:15 – Finding balance

44:07 – Direct patient marketing

45:50 – Teaching

53:04 – Perio and the industry

01:00:06 – Genetics

01:02:43 – Owning a product

01:04:28 – Social media influence

01:09:23 – Paid media

01:11:42 – Being vegetarian

01:13:42 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Reena Wadia


After being a high achiever during her studies at Barts, she undertook a four-year specialist course at King’s College which she passed with distinction.

She also spent time as Senior House Officer at Guy’s Hospital and split her time between restorative and oral surgery.

Now working as an associate specialist at King’s College Dental Hospital, Reena is also based at RW Perio on Harley Street where her practice is limited to periodontal care.

[00:00:00] I remember my friends kind of going out and some of the getting married and having babies, and I’m still there in the library studying, having my breakfast, lunch and dinner in the library, which wasn’t fun, said it is really intense, especially when you get to the final years. You really got to give it your all. But there is an end point. So I think you got to you got to be ready for it. It’s not for everyone, but it’s something that you’ve thought about and you want to do and you want to do one thing every single day of your life, then it is probably right for you.

[00:00:34] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:00:51] Gives me great pleasure to welcome we know what you from our perio onto the show, Reena’s being burst on the scene in terms of a young specialist really pushing the cause of perio. Everywhere you look, it seems like arena and really nice to see that you’ve just started your referral practise as well. Hi, it’s nice to have you. Usually we start with where were you born? How did you grow up? When was the first time you thought of becoming a dentist?

[00:01:22] Again, thank you so much for having me on the show. It’s my pleasure. Let’s say where do I start? So I was born and brought up in South London, so NICTA couldn’t stay here. And I grew up with me and my family and I have one brother who’s two years older than me. And yeah, I mean, I pretty much to be honest, I lived in that house till I got married. So very sad. I didn’t live out here in university. I literally stayed at home for what must have been like, gosh, over twenty eight to nine years. So see, I grew up in South London, I went to school nearby and then I went to ground school nearby, as well as the girls school, which I really enjoyed. And then yeah, then I pretty much stayed at home. I went to university, started at the London or I did my undergraduate Dental training. And then funnily enough I did my VTE again just down the road like two minutes walk from my house to my own dentist, which is interesting. And then I did my perio training guys. So always been in London, which is being fun, and now I’m living in central London. So still in London,

[00:02:35] Just growing up in that single house, single household during that time and going to uni. What was that like in terms of where you were you coming home, back home every day? Did you stay out with mates? What was what was the whole setup? Because, you know, my experience of uni was was was living away. And my daughter is applying at the moment. Right. And the protective side of us as parents says, go to Manchester and say hello. But the growing up side says, you know, go as far as you can. And she’s going to London.

[00:03:09] Yeah. Know, interestingly enough, I absolutely loved it because my parents let me have my independence. They weren’t the kind of Indian and some I know have something to go reputation of trying to keep you stuck in your house and locked in the house. But my parents really did let me grow up while still living at home. And later on in my university, as my brother then moved out Old Street. So I used to say as flat a lot as well, which was fun. So I think for me it was great because especially during the final years and especially actually when I was doing my perio specialist training, it was really intense. So coming home to a lovely, nice meal that Mummy’s made, it was actually really helpful to get through those years that at the same time they didn’t restrict me. I could meet my friends whenever I wanted to have a social life. So it was a nice balance. I think it’s for me it worked pretty well.

[00:04:02] First of both worlds, I remember I used to come home every eight weeks and it’s a bit full of shopping. And then on the way back, it was it was some home cooked food. So I guess you have the best of both worlds that being able to come home and get some decent growth down you and and have the flexibility as well.

[00:04:20] Yeah, I spoke to someone in New Year. Yeah. And they told me you’d absolutely dominated that. Yeah, I top it everything. Yeah. Were you the kid in school as well, you know.

[00:04:36] Yeah. I was always a bit of a geek. I just really I just really enjoy studying. And I think the way I’ve been grown up is so my dad always saying to me, just give it your hundred percent, whatever you do. So I’m doing something. I just max. And that’s it to the point where, you know, that that’s my key focus. So when I was at university, especially undergraduate years, my key focus and I’ve always wanted to be a Dental since I was like seven or eight and finally got there, I was like, wow, I need to give it my all and I want it to be the best. And I wanted to give it one hundred percent and then whatever happened. So I did the front line during lectures. We used to make fun of me. I wasn’t though as a geek, I was I was still socialised. Everyone had a really nice group of friends, got on well with with the whole year. So it wasn’t as though I was like a just a recluse, like hanging around by myself. It wasn’t like that. But I did. I was very book orientated. I just wanted to to do well. I was the best as I could.

[00:05:36] I think, you know, my dad had that conversation with me too, but it didn’t quite work the same way, so. I mean, is that right now, I mean, are you, like, highly like a perfectionist?

[00:05:51] Yeah, I think I try to be a perfectionist because I’ve learnt that trying to make everything perfect, you sometimes don’t make progress. You just need to be good enough to actually achieve your own thing, trying to do every tiny detail. Sometimes that extra fine detail doesn’t make a difference. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn’t. So I wouldn’t I would say if I call myself a perfectionist, I think I’d I’d still have the drive that I did five, 10 years ago. I think that hasn’t changed. I don’t think that ever will. I think it’s kind of built in me. So, yeah, whatever I do, I’m trying to do the best I possibly can. And if there’s challenges, then I have the kind of grit to kind of get through it, essentially.

[00:06:29] Why did you decide to specialise in an area, what point during your career did you think this is what I really want to do?

[00:06:37] Yeah, I mean, in terms of dentistry, I wouldn’t have wanted to for a long, long time. That dentist I mentioned who was down the road is actually probably out of Vassar. And it was very inspiring who was my own dentist. He took out my premolars for my over and everything else that she really inspired by him. And that’s essentially led to me doing dentistry. So that was always in the specialising actually didn’t come to a lot later. Actually, during my final year of undergraduate, I thought, OK, there’s quite a lot to do here. I wonder if I want to pick some one of these things and do really, really well. And funnily enough, I was dead set on prosthetics. So for my final case, I did it for my three, have one of my tutors filtered a really nice guy who was like, I’m going to get you right into the prostate. And then you’re joining us next year as soon as you can. And I was dead set on it. And then it was only until the final month or two before graduating. I discovered perio as such, because I have to say undergraduate years, Aperio are not the most exciting. And I don’t think it’s when I started, at least it wasn’t very well represented. And then I realised, oh, this sounds quite good. And I think then after that year I started exploring it and I did my essay. Yeah, I did all surgery, I did restorative. So I started to like the surgical aspects of it. So I thought maybe I was a good speciality. Then I shadowed quite a few Purdum’s and I thought, wow, this is actually something I might really enjoy.

[00:08:06] And so thought, yeah, I realised I needed to specialise because I wanted to do one thing just really, really well. But Perio came onto the scene quite later on, actually, when I realised I like the surgical side of things, but also with the impact you can have on private treatment, it’s quite significant. You can literally change someone’s life. You can change the quality of life. You can make people not just look good, but feel good as well. And for me, that is so important. And so, yeah, I looked into that and delved in further and I actually applied for training quite early on. Some people were saying to me, oh, you need more experience. You were only fresh out going straight and you can’t even do a feeling of people saying that. And I was thinking actually works for me. If I’m only going to be doing I don’t want to do. And if I want to do, I don’t want to do a restoration anymore. That’s all I want to do. So I thought actually, let’s jump into it and go for it. And with these decisions as well, you can’t just you’ve got to think about the rest of your life. And for me, I wanted to get married, have a family and all these kind of things. And I wanted to get that studying because I knew how hard it was going to be. I want to get that done beforehand. So it kind of worked out really well.

[00:09:13] Did you consider going on and, you know, becoming a researcher or were you at practise?

[00:09:21] Yeah, it did cross my mind when I did my master’s in specialist training. And you’ll find we usually have to do like a Masters project research project. And it did cross my mind. I did enjoy it. But I think I’ve always had my heart set on practise and applying what you learn practically rather than doing studies. And I do like studies and research, but for me it’s more practical hands on aspect of things. So, yeah, I mean, I’m still in the hospital. I still work one day a week, which is quite nice. So there’s little academic element there and it’s great to interact with other staff in a hospital environment, but I don’t think I could do that more than once a week.

[00:10:01] What does what does the training entail in terms of the specialist training? You qualify and then you graduate as a dentist and then you do the specialist training, I’m assuming full time for over three years.

[00:10:16] Yes, there’s different ways you can go in. And three main schools that offer the specialist training and but Kings’ is the only one when you do it part time. So I did a four year part time training programme. You can do a three full time training programme. And the reason why she was part time was, well, quite honestly, I wouldn’t be able to afford to pay that amount without working. So just to give you it is quite interesting. When people are jumping to specialist training, they forget about all the nitty gritty and one of the biggest things is finance. And when you’re doing specialist training programme, you’re looking at I mean, when I did it probably going up, when I did it, I was paying around eleven, twelve thousand pounds a year. And for me to not then work would be very difficult for me to fill that course. So I did a part time training programme, firstly because I wanted to of the UN so I could pay the course. But also it was quite nice because you can then applying what you’re learning then in practise. So there’s part time and then there’s full time to part time as well is only a king’s. But it also allows you to and it sounds geeky, but you have an extra year, so an extra year of learning. I think we really made a difference. So financially as well. I think you have to think about loss of income.

[00:11:26] So even though I was working part time, the. Working five days a week, so it all adds up. I think I find a lot of young dentists graduating and there’s something in specialist training without considering that decision in detail. And one of the things to think about is finance. But, yeah, you did three years, four years. And then in terms of what it entails, when I did it, I was in the university hospital environment three days a week. And at the same time I was working process to one to two days a week. Plus you gotta do your studying and everything else. It’s intense. It does take a lot of personal sacrifice. I mean, I remember my friends kind of going out and some of the getting married, having babies. And I’m still there in the library studying, having my breakfast, lunch and dinner in the library, which wasn’t fun. So it is really intense, especially when you get to the final years. You really got to give it your all. But there is an end point. So I think you got to be going to be ready for it. It’s not for everyone. But if you are if it’s something that you’ve thought about and you want to do and you want to do one thing every single day of your life, then it is probably right for you

[00:12:28] Just in terms of the intensity of your work in, let’s say, a couple of days a week and then and then we need to do any training as well. Would you then go home and say study in the evening after having works and practise? How are we talking for me? Undergraduate was a lot easier, a lot more difficult than postgrad, just the way things panned out for me. But just talk to me about the hours and the time and the dedication you devote to put in during that four year time period.

[00:12:59] Yeah, I mean, I was waking up at like five, six a.m. The latest on the days I was going to university was great in seeing patients. You don’t really have much free time, so you’re spending your own free time writing up cases, revising, going to the library. Postgraduate education was very much your own initiative. So you’ve be given reading lists rather than undergraduate where you’re given the paper and maybe the paper summarise for yours post graduate. You got to get out there and actually do that reading and research for yourself. So all your spare time is spent on that. If you want to do it well, all your spare time is spent on that. So therefore you’re going to work on the work days of coming home and you’re carrying on with the work. So the days were like literally from five a.m. to probably midnight every day for me. I’m not I’m not I wouldn’t see myself as a vice president, but I work hard. I mean, my brother, for example, he just read something once and it’s one of those annoying people who think they maybe spend with me. I have to spend that time. So it was draining. I think I couldn’t have done it. If I had to do one more year of that, I think I would have broken. But it is just about enough to get me through. To be honest

[00:14:12] With the Reverend, low points during that time where you’d been through Dental school, you’ve got your degree in there. And then during that four year period where, you know, five till midnight most days, there are very low points where you sort of thought to yourself, you know, this is too much mature.

[00:14:28] I actually was okay. I think the secret was having supportive people around me. So I had a good buddy on the course and that we revised together. We support each other and the home. I had my family network and my friends and I had my to be husband. So I think having my mentors, I had a really good support system. I think without that I hundred percent would struggle. So and that support system, like, for example, my like we were supposed to get married and we had to postpone the whole thing because of this, because of how intense it was. Actually, I was like, if we’re getting married now, we’re going to get divorced six months later. So let’s hold on. Let him understand that you’re going through this. You need to support people understanding the situation. How many hours you’re putting in and putting it into perspective really helps. I think I was OK. I think it’s very easy to go now and worry and break during that process. But I think having a good supportive network really helped me, which goes for anything. I think even now and going forward, you always need people around you to support you. I think it’s so important and surround yourself with the right people, I think has surrounded by very positive people. People in my year with very positive, they weren’t saying, oh, my God, how are we going to get through this? They were very much like, let’s do this. So it’s great.

[00:15:44] Is it also quite difficult to get in? I mean, how many applicants per play, so how does that work?

[00:15:50] It is competitive. I think it’s getting more and more competitive. I think they have a good few hundred applicants and each year, on average, about six people. So. So it really is quite competitive. So there’s a written application. You can have your interviews and you’ve really got to show you, show them why you are interested in power and what’s the evidence for that? What have you done to show that you’re interested in the speciality? What can you bring to the speciality as well? So it is competitive. It’s not impossible that something someone wants to do it, go for it and find out. We don’t just just find out what they’re looking for and build yourself up to that. I think.

[00:16:26] So give was a sense once you did your dissertation, I guess it some sort of five or something, and then they said, all right, you’ve passed. And, you know, whether whether we call that like, you know, just pure for that feeling that we all get when you pass that exam. Yeah. And then you’re the most junior periodontist in the country. What’s the journey? What were you aware of? What has to happen next for you? Were you that person who’d already started thinking about where you were going to go next and what did you do next?

[00:17:00] If, funnily enough, I was that young, I was the youngest this when I qualified. So it was it was scary. I think the thing is, all you think about usually is getting through the course and not the day after is a bit like Dental. So you just wanting to graduate and then like, oh, hold on a minute, where am I? This is the real world. One of my my mentors, he kind of helped me and guided me through that process to the point where actually during my final months at my specialist training programme, I had already developed an index which was basically hiring a room and setting up my own clinic, basically to the point where I was literally on my final month. I was starting to see patients in my clinic, which was pretty scary, but really fun. And then I started to feel like, wow, I’m actually so yeah, that was how I started

[00:17:47] With the referrals coming from I mean, had you already started going to work?

[00:17:51] And what happened was when I was 20, when I graduated from dental school, I set up before the days, but blogging was actually a thing. I set up a website, which was my name, Dotcom, and I used to love going to still developing Dental lectures, courses, all these kind of things I used to really enjoy summarising.

[00:18:12] I remember the really good.

[00:18:14] He has

[00:18:15] Notes

[00:18:16] That say, yeah, so I used to summarise these things into just I find that and those around me, we just wanted simple summaries of things. So I used to post them about any of them. So that’s why I created the website. And from there I used to post videos, links to all sorts of things, and I started to build a network of people interested in my stuff. And then actually what happened was when I graduated, they also were following my journey and said, oh, your parents, now can we refer to you? So naturally, I really created a small referral network who have you send patients to me. So it kind of worked out really well. And thereafter I did some outreach and I went to visit people and I started building relationships with people. And the key thing for me was when someone sent me a patient, I wanted to just make sure that patient was one hundred percent happy or thousand percent happy with the care that they would go back to the Dental and say, wow, I thought she was really good. So the referral actually then sends more patients. So and from there it grew. I mean, I started one day a week carving out this room on Wimpole Street and then through the year, often to a full time connect the office even busier.

[00:19:21] So I’ve only ever referred to one periodontist in my life, Strand, because I was only a dentist for like a five year period and then another four year period. It just the way it worked out for me. But the question of value add, I mean, you said you kind of talked about it a little bit, saying you want the patient to be happy. Yeah, of course. Put the value add from the referrers perspective of who’s a good periodontist to refer to and who’s not such a great one. I remember with Pete, one thing he used to do was he used to say to me, look, what’s the full treatment plan? And then kind of reinforce the full treatment plan with the patient. I would come back now fully sold, and that was worth, you know, everything that that was definitely worth passing the patient to. So is that is there an element of that

[00:20:09] One hundred percent? I mean, that’s one of the biggest things. I think I always get to know my referrers. What kind of treatment are they doing? Are they doing Invisalign? Are they doing bonding? What do they want to do then do on that patient? Because normally patients I mean, perio is just part of the plan and it’s easy to get them out healthy enough so they can then have more aesthetic work. So I, I do exactly the same things. I then reinforce it’s the patient, then they go away and it’s actually you know what, I, I’m going to go for this. So I think that’s a key element. I think the other thing is communication. A lot of my referrers said to me, I used to refer to someone I just don’t know what’s going on with the patient. Have they been booked in? What’s happening with the treatment plan? What’s going on? So I’m trying to be quite hot and communication, like when the patients referred or we receive the referral. We left the referral when I booked in, we let the referral report the day that the patient is seen by the NDA. So I’ve tried to remedy everything. Everyone wants instant now. And I feel that even with patient reports, the patient wants that report by the end of the day. So we try and really work towards that. And that seems to have results. I also think for me as well as the final thing, I guess it’s worked really well, is actually going out there and visiting your areas and getting to know them in person, because I think now it’s so easy just to. Frowns on social media and just think a message here will never actually make an effort to go and see that person and get to know them and perhaps organise a lunchtime, things like that, I think providing value is really important.

[00:21:40] And what about the kind of work itself? I mean, is there a type of periodontist that you are? So the kind of work the dog and for instance, are you the type of president who moved into employment placement or not?

[00:21:51] No, I’m not a tool. Actually, I made a decision early on to literally just do perio. I did enjoy influence and we did get trained on it, guys, and it was great, but I just didn’t feel like I was so tired on this. Just of course, you do other things as well. But for me, I just wanted to hone down on Perry, i.e. non-surgical treatment, surgery, knee surgery, get out of that crowd, lengthening all of that, treating recession, military lung surgery. So I decided that was enough for me to be there without the implants.

[00:22:26] So recession due to you finding you’re doing a lot more of that kind of work now?

[00:22:31] Yeah, for sure. I think with Invisalign

[00:22:33] Cosmetic, Berríos

[00:22:35] Cosmetic, I think even Signe’s realise that the guns are also important in aesthetics. It’s like if you have a beautiful photograph and you have an ugly frame, it’s not going to look the best. So people are realising the importance of it. Also has a lot of Invisalign going on, a lot of recession happening as a result of that, which sometimes can’t be helped. But that may be true or to a recession. If you’re doing a small maker of that type of patient who really looks in detail, it can make a big difference with with a small surgery for recessions in. That also means that quite a few young patients in the last few months, especially following the lockdown, I think people may be staring at the house longer, but a lot of young patients coming in saying, I am going to be small, how can I correct this? So that’s becoming those two big things. Thinning and recession becoming quite a major part of my day, really.

[00:23:26] What’s the what’s the treatment for recession? So every time I go to my hygienist, she makes me jump through the chair because I’ve got a recession. Right. And so they’re really sensitive when she cleans them at the bottom and she said, I’ll just brush too hard. And so what treatment do you get for that? And is the treatment purely cosmetic or does it provide a functional benefit as well? Where is it can help with the sensitivity?

[00:23:49] Yeah, the sensitivity was an interesting one. Say that the actual surgery we do this, lots of different types of surgery and different purposes do different things differently. I’m quite a fan of the Kellie’s approach. I do a lot of current splats and with connective tissue grafts and yes, it’s expensive. But in a lot of cases, as you said, it’s functional as well because your thickening the gum tissue. So you’re improving the quality of gum tissue, making it less likely to recede again in the future, make it easy for the patient to clean that area more comfortable and clean that area. So you didn’t always have to do surgery, though. I mean, a lot of times I would monitor it as well. But you’re actively monitoring all you’re measuring it. And in a year’s time, if it hasn’t progressed in an area where the patient’s not bothered aesthetically, then fine, you can say, well, it’s it’s not like you just jump in and do surgery for every single patient. I think you have to do it case by case. But sensitivity, sometimes the results, et cetera, sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes you to do that in other ways as well.

[00:24:45] You know, let’s talk about Cornick periodontitis. Has that moved at all since I qualified 25 years ago as far as the treatment and management of chronic peritonitis?

[00:24:58] Yeah, so now

[00:25:02] You go with what’s happening in that area. It happened to the actual tree is.

[00:25:10] Yeah. And obviously the new classification was staging and grading things, which is made is not really changed the way we treat them as such. But it’s made it more objective in terms of analysing that patient and making a treatment plan. Things have become a little more conservative before, I guess years ago, used to scrape away this momentum and be really aggressive. And now it’s all about the biofilm. And according to the new treatment guidelines, we’re using this new term called Papau, which is professional mechanical removal. So you do either suit projectable with subject. So there’s a big focus on that. There’s also obviously a big push on prevention or hygiene patients taking responsibility for their own health, I think in the past is that a dentist does everything. But now I would say to my patients, it’s 80 percent of what you do at home. So, yes, we are going to spend two hours talking about maybe not two hours, but we’re going to spend a long time talking about your home care at the clinic as well. We also look at risk factors is a big thing now. So we spend time on smoking cessation. We spend time on diet, advice to stress. Stress is huge. So you’re looking at your patient holistically now, more so than we did in the past, which is great. I think it makes it makes a big difference.

[00:26:23] But there’s been no advancement, no breakthrough.

[00:26:27] There’s been advancement in the way we treat the eye, the equipment we use, the technology we use. But the principals themselves, yes, I agree. They’re largely largely the same. But for example, because of the techniques we’re using for the advanced equipment we’re using, we’re doing less surgery. So now it’s more conservative. So I have to say about ninety five percent of the cases that I treat for periodontitis can be treated non-surgical. If it’s done well, I don’t how ever have any reduction surgery. So we have to reduce the amount of surgery we do

[00:27:01] To work on implants as well. Can I do people send you preemployment

[00:27:06] When they do, they do some test cases. I say not the most enjoyable to treat as we know the standard surgical treatment. And what you end up doing is just slowing down the progression of that condition. So never make any kind of vague promises to your patients on that one. But yet again, it’s another time bomb that’s going off. So I’m seeing it all the time

[00:27:27] In terms of your business and it just us through the process of it, it seems like you qualified as a as a periodontist and then you went straight into business. It wasn’t always in your sort of tea leaves, so to speak. The I was going to be a business woman or did it just come and then and then it just evolved from there.

[00:27:49] Yeah. So I thought process cause I could work for four or five practises running around every single day in different places. I mean, I was talking to my friends and specialists of years ahead of me and some of them were like on a two week timetable that they were in like and they were literally travelling miles and miles across the UK. And I just thought to myself, I didn’t want to do this. I don’t want to be knackered every single day. I’d rather have my own pace, do things my own. And that’s the other thing they were trying to is different equipment, different sets of different teams, all very sick. And continuity of care for the patients was was tricky. So I said to myself, right, what are the other options? And the other most obvious option was to do things myself. But I just thought, gosh, that’s scary. Where am I going to get Reffo? So because they’re all going to be if I was so I was in kind of fifty fifty whether I do this or not. And then I just thought, well that’s scary. What’s a risk. And what if it doesn’t work then fine, I’ll go and work for the classes. So I just decide to take risk. Minimal sort of risk. I was just paying rent for one room once a week initially and then it worked for United, so I just built from there. So I’ve always I’ve always wanted to do things my own way, very independent. And I think I’m not sure I would have been happy working in tandem process that they would have really stressed out about it.

[00:29:12] The business side of Dental difficulty to just come to you naturally. Did you did you make a lot of mistakes along the way? I mean, you’ve accelerated from hiring a room one day a week to having an entire floor on how history, which is no small undertaking and then making that place look fantastic. I’ve seen bits of progress on social media, but just take us through the journey of making the journey of business from going in one room a week, one room, one day a week through to having the whole floor on Holly Street. I’m assuming that’s open. How many days a week?

[00:29:44] Six days a week.

[00:29:45] Six days a week. Wow.

[00:29:47] So it’s been a bit of a journey last few years, I have to say. One of my mentors names, I’ve he is a business consultant. He’s a dentist, the dentist for like 20 years and then went into business. He has literally guided me through the whole way to having a mentor and a thing without a mentor could have done it because I guess a mentor is someone who shows you the way they’ve already gone that way and they already know what roads to the west time right and left and what obstacles to avoid. So I think having a mentor is absolutely critical when you’re doing projects like this, anything really. So that really helped guide me in terms of what the next steps were. And that was a key, I guess, every single point. I was like, OK, what’s the next step? This is working. What’s the next step? So I wasn’t like, oh yeah, in three years time I want to be in history. I did have that dream, but I didn’t. That’s not what I was focussing on. I was focussing on, OK, I’m busy one day a week now and it’s good to two days. I’m busy two days. Let’s maybe bring in a geneste and now I’m busy.

[00:30:43] Three days. Let’s hire place for five days and bring three more hygienic. So it was a step by step process and I think making sure each step was working seamlessly before moving to the next was really important. I think as well, establishing the business and the brand and having values is really helped. So obviously now we have a team of people say 13 people in our team for ideas. So it was quite a big team. And for me, obviously, when it was just me, it was very easy to maintain my brand and values. And what I decide to do from the very early onset was create three key values that I wanted any team member to have before they join when they join the team. And I think that really helped me select the right people. And I think it’s always about a team approach. And without having the right people on board, I don’t think I would have gotten this quickly. So it was both obviously personal efforts guiding and environmental, but also having the right people around you and in your team to support that. And and obviously, the key thing was making sure that the Refah was pretty happy with everything and going to

[00:31:44] Share your team your values than what others?

[00:31:47] Yeah, my team values. The first one is excellent. So whatever we do, we just need to do it perfectly to the highest standard. The other one is enthusiastic. So with me, like it’s not just a job. I mean, the way I see it is you’re doing this for the next hopefully forty years of your life for most of your day. Like, I don’t want you to come to work and just be like, oh, this is just a job. I want people to come in and be like, I really enjoy what I’m doing. Obviously everyone has their off days, but looking forward to coming into work and being enthusiastic because your patients can see that and it rubs off. Right now, my patients and I love coming in to see us because we’re enthusiastic. They’re enthusiastic. So I think enthusiasm was a very important value. And then the third one we have, which is probably not the most glamorous one, is reliable for me. Having, for example, someone who calls in sick the day before, it doesn’t work. Like unless you’re bedridden, you can’t move none of our staff. I don’t think I’ve ever called in sick. So for me, being reliable, if you say you’re going to do something, you do it. That’s that value is actually really important to me.

[00:32:52] You know, some some some people who really excel in school and university have that sort of institutionalised sort of thing about them, but it seems like with you, you’re managing the world of work really well, too. Would you say that? You know, I’d say that different skills, you know, passing exams and running businesses, totally different skills. But you look at them in the same way. I mean, did you sit and read business books before you started setting this up or what did you do? How did you prepare for all this?

[00:33:25] Yeah, I think it’s a completely different skill. And I personally think this should be taught at Dental schools. I just don’t know why. I mean, I hope it changes in the next few years. But the skill of running a business, understanding figures, understanding revenue, that kind of stuff is so important it should be taught to everyone. So, yeah, I had to learn it. I think I read books again. My mentors, business consultants, they went through all the metrics and all the things you need to know which you on tools Dental school and then you learn as you go along. So you see what works, what doesn’t work, and you change things. And I think everyone involved not mistakes, but you come across things that didn’t really work around. Let me try this. So it’s a skill that you have to learn, I don’t think. Well, I definitely had tools and I guess some people in involved with that sort of business ethos. But I definitely wasn’t. I was very academic. So it was a completely different ballgame. But, yeah, it was fun learning about it. And I think then combining both skills worked really well.

[00:34:24] What are the best and worst things about running a business? So sometimes there’s things that you do in your business that you just do because you have to do, but you just don’t enjoy it. And there’s some things that you do in your business where you’re in your zone of genius. And if you were doing that 100 percent of the time, life would be great.

[00:34:43] So I guess the best thing about running your own business is literally the fact that you can do every single thing your own way, using whatever equipment you want, spending however long you want with whomever you want, because you get to choose your team. And that makes all the difference in an environment you want to as well. So especially with the new clinic, it’s really made a difference to how much I always really enjoy everything, but it just magnified how much I enjoy going to work. So I think the best part is the thing is also working in a team is really fun. I don’t see my team members as I’m the boss or the we we will collaborate with each other. So we all bring different strengths and we try and support each other and build each other up. So that’s kind of the best thing about having your own business. And I guess you’re in control of things. You’re in control of the future of your business and who you bring on to the team and things, treatments you might want to offer. There’s a lot of your own challenge, I guess, with all those kind of things. I guess the negatives are you just can’t switch off.

[00:35:41] It’s yeah, you you never know. I don’t really quit working for me. What if it’s like play to me? I just enjoy it anyway. But you don’t switch off from your business. For example, you get an email, something happens and sometimes they’re very minor things, but you have to deal with them because it’s your business. So the way I’ve kind of tackled that before I in the first year was I got quite a trying to zone out work and play and I tried to say I’ve done for the day and then I get like patient emails or this and that, and I get really stressed out. Then I realised quite quickly on, if you want to do this, you just have to take a lifestyle approach. So and that’s how I work. That is more of a lifestyle I didn’t see as work and play. It’s just a lifestyle. So that’s the thing. You can’t switch off no matter how much you think you can, you just can’t do it. If it’s a bad thing, it’s just something you got to be aware of. So I guess that’s that’s the hardest bit for sure.

[00:36:33] And so how how different is life now? We were talking about study studying for your you specialise in wake up at five a.m. go to bed at midnight. Does the business of dentistry live with you during those hours as well? The first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, check Ivone, C, C, C, what you’ve got on or whatever and so on and so forth. How how is it now that you’ve moved from study into having your own business and the integration of the business into your life?

[00:37:04] Yeah, I think it’s quite different now. I think in terms of hours of the day, I still wake up very early. I still probably wake up at five, five thirty every day, wake up quite so. I do some meditation in the morning, so I actually don’t check my phone till I start having breakfast because I don’t think your first hour of your day is that’s when you have your best ideas. That’s when you want to be fully focussed. I don’t into my phone. I don’t get emails. The way I see emails, emails is just like a to do list, like someone’s telling you. What do you want to just unclassy zone that out for a later time in the day. So, yeah, the first I think the hours are the same, but my day is far better balanced. So I have time in the morning where I don’t work and then I, I walk to work. So I have twenty minutes where I listen to a podcast or listen to some music depending what mood I’m in and just think about my day ahead, then I’ll get into work. That’s when I kind of perou mode on and then I look at my day. I have to say through the move obviously I’ve been building a new clinic. It’s been so my hours have been longer, but on an average day when we start work at around eight thirty six, six thirty seven, sometimes it is a long day.

[00:38:15] But you know, make sure I have a lunch break. It’s a quite nice pace today. And then when I get home I do try and, you know, Dental stuff which I think is quite important. Some days I’ll have like podcasts or webinars or things on, but I’m not doing that every single night. And I think on the weekend I definitely try and do some non not switch off, but just do some non Dental stuff, other things that re energised me essentially. And also I’m not working. I’m not in the clinic. I don’t see patients every single day. So I’m working three and a half days in clinic and then I have a day of admin which is quite nice and doing non stuff as well. So I try to balance my week, not just my day as well. And what I’ve now said stuff is so strange, but on my calendar, on my Ikal, I have a zone, my, my actual calendar. So I have anything that’s work related and red, anything which is fun and what is fun. But everything is non Dental it is having blue every. So I try and make sure I’ve got my balance right, which really helps me actually. So I’m just too much red in the dark blue suit. Yeah. That of system seems to work for you.

[00:39:23] You know, we we ask everyone about clinical errors. I don’t know if you listen to this bit of the podcast before, but, you know, from from the from that sort of black box thinking idea of generally we tend to hide our errors and then no one learns from them. Can you share some mistakes that you’ve learnt from politically? And then we’ll talk about business wise, too.

[00:39:49] Yeah. Mistakes quickly. I guess when I was starting off with more complex surgery, as with anything, there’s a learning curve. And it wasn’t so much the actual clinical work. I think it was more as a way of saying dentistry, the communication side to, for example, wasn’t emphasising certain post op like you’re going to get a swelling, you might get bruising. I was just very much about that, whereas now I know exactly what’s going to happen and I’m very much in communication with my patient about that, which makes me, the patient, feel more comfortable that the side it’s the same then we’re aware of it. So I think it’s not really I would say it’s mistakes. It’s just I’ve developed as with anything in dentistry, you know what to say and what works. And what you should be saying is, I think is more the communication side. That’s it’s really improved other than clinical work. You just get better than we do. So it is easy and to shy away from with complex any Dental complex procedures and then not wanting to do it. But I’ve really pushed myself because to be fair, even during my specialist training, I didn’t do that much complexity because I’ve reached it. So like with Dental, the real learning started when I was actually seeing my patients and it was scary because I was in probably three dozen highstreet area. Seeing these quite demanding patients doing quite complex surgeries. I could have easily said, you know what, I don’t want to do this. This is definitely a composite. But I did push myself and I got better with time. So, yeah, I think it’s just learning from the communication side more than anything.

[00:41:21] But you not do not recall a case where it was rather than communication. It was something you took on that shouldn’t have taken on or something that you did that you wouldn’t do again or.

[00:41:32] Oh, I guess I, I don’t know, I guess now for me, it’s more patient selection, like you see those red flag patients where you’re like actually it’s probably better I do less on this patient than more. So I can remember actually a specific patient where we did quite a big treatment plan. And I just thought and it kind of total kind of she’s very, very picky about every single thing. But it turned into quite a sonogram to say it was all fine in the end. But it’s like I’d rather have taken that step by step with that patient to firstly suss out the patient, see what they’re about before offering a treatment plan. So I think, yeah, I think selection is so important in everything we do and understanding patients and what they’re like as a person is is super important to us.

[00:42:17] We also Obama that same question and he said sometimes one thing he’s learnt, he said something about patients. Patients can turn on you. Yes. Even ones that you think you really, really get on with can can turn on you in the wrong situation. And it’s difficult as a as someone who gets referred things. Sometimes you get patients. I speak to a lot of real highfliers. Sometimes you get patients coming to you saying you’re the answer to all my problems. Yeah, I’m sure in your world sometimes as a patient who’s not doing your hygiene bit right and then puts that blame on you, does that happen?

[00:42:58] Yeah, I think I completely agree with the patient. The patient that you’re with, your favourite patient just turns on you that that happens a lot. During my first year when I graduated, I saw that. And from then on, I just treat every single patient as though they all going turn on in a negative way. You just got to be ready for it. So but yeah, I think oral hygiene wise, it’s difficult because sometimes it can be patients can take it quite they can be quite patronising. 10 people ask questions. We’ve come up with a way in a clinic where it’s actually completely change the way we approach it to make them actually understand that we want to help you because we want to get the results for you mainly and we want the results to last. So this is why we’re doing it. And actually cleaning your teeth is quite complex and no one’s ever shown you. So we’ve come up with a way of communicating with patients that we are very strict. So the thing is, the home care isn’t very good. They did progressive having three actual non-surgical treatments that you have to be strict every single point. Otherwise, yes, you can blame it on you because you’re going to do some treatment and it’s not going to work and it’s going to be your fault. So you have to be quite strict.

[00:44:07] And some of the aspects of direct patient marketing in your practise does not exist or of word of mouth patient patient 100 percent.

[00:44:21] Yeah, because especially with a cohort who were in their 50s, 60s, I mean, Perilla is very common. The likelihood of their husband or one having perio is huge, that we often get to come in and have the treatment. Watching my husband he’s getting with. So yeah, there’s this huge market of what amount and then all the people who want to maintain their health to the focus of the clinic is not just trying to treat disease. Our aim is also to maintain health, which I think is just as important. So we also get a lot of direct patients calling in, especially younger individuals, 20, 30 year olds looking and saying, you know what, I just want to make sure my thumbs are OK. Let’s make sure that that’s OK. And I want to have Advanced Hygiene Assessment and clean, basically, which is great. I think when I was 18, 19, I don’t remember think my friends without worrying about their or health plans. Now, it’s like 16 year olds coming in wanting me to check them, which is amazing to have read it.

[00:45:31] Tell us about the teaching side of your your career. So the lecturing then? I’m not sure when Perio School came along, but your online courses are not this. Just tell us a little bit more about how you got into teaching. First of all, maybe the first time you stood up in front of a crowd, were you nervous? What was that like?

[00:45:50] Yeah, teaching. So I’ve always wanted to be a dentist, but my close second was being a teacher. I remember being like five year olds, like five year olds, kind of teaching my brother on my little blackboard. Like teaching was a very close second. So I always had it in the back of my mind. And I didn’t think I could combine both careers. But when I graduated from dental school, one of my friends actually said to me, Why don’t you? Because I used to kind of organised group sessions for my friends. Things like why don’t you organise a talk for like people who have just graduated, I’ve just graduated, how can I give a lecture? And, you know, you just share what you’ve learnt so far. It’s even just a year or two below. You might it might be something that. So I do remember my first Nacho’s tips for young dentists, I think it was, and there were about 10 people in this tiny little room that we organised, I was really nervous. I thought basically I was just worried that no one would find it interesting and helpful. And that was my main worry. So after that talk, so much positive feedback. Actually, this is more so it’s useful for people and maybe I should continue to do this. And so I then I decided to kind of keep organising talks and then did a professional teaching qualification as well. And I used to teach it to be fair, actually, when I was sort of in my teens, I did used to teach during my as part of a temple Monday, we had like music classes or to teach musical instruments to teach in classical singing, but it’s always like a bit of a teacher.

[00:47:21] But I had some skills, but I never thought I was any good. But then as a sustained positive feedback during the Dental sort of stuff, I decided to kind of take it further. Then it came from lectures to sort of courses, which was my first courses. Again, really bored people and find it interesting. But I think when you get positive feedback and you see people enjoy it and learn from it, you just want to do it again and again. And that’s when, I guess more recently we started the online teaching as well. So during the lockdown, it was really sad because so many courses booked up and cancelled like everyone else had cancelled all of them during class lockdown. But how can I just get the information out there to people? What can we do? And I just had an idea, why don’t we set up all the courses by an online format? So basically and the first two weeks of lockdown, I literally spent my whole day writing out my courses, scripts of pictures, etc. and then the week after I spent a week or two just recording them, it was so intense. And then again, I thought, God knows and finds interesting.

[00:48:23] He wants to stare at my face on video for like hours on end and listen to someone not there in person. But I just thought, you know what? Let me just get another list of people who had already booked on the courses. And it was amazing. Like people were really excited about learning right now and online. It seems to be the way forward. People who do it in their own time in the evening between patients. I see Perry School really has been something I did not expect to have left off, and it really has. And the most exciting thing was like doing things online. You accessing the global markets so always happy. Australia joined and India. And I was like, oh my God, I would never knowingly be able to travel to these countries and share information and knowledge and learning. But now I can. So we’re actually relaunching the website, just working on at the moment. We don’t in a couple of weeks with tons of content and courses. So that that’s a I’m really, really excited about that. It’s so nice that I’ve been able to combine both my passions. I feel really privileged to be able to do both you and teaching. So and it’s a big part of the new clinics. So we’ve got a lecture room. We’ll be running the courses in-house analysis. Yeah, it’s something I want to pursue further as I progress

[00:49:34] With the online side of things. I know I work very closely with the Academy on the online courses that he’s created, and then we pivoted to do it almost like a hybrid online course, which was they had to watch the online course first. We send them out a hands on kit. And so they do so with the zoom interaction from the feedback on that has been absolutely amazing in terms of the some people who would prefer to do it that way, then actually come to a venue or whatever and do it in person free or post covid. Right. So we’ve we’ve changed the whole structure of how the teaching at the academy is going to take place. And introducing more of this hybrid stuff is that is anything like if you’re going to be changing the way you structure your teaching in that form in any way because of the lockdown?

[00:50:26] Yeah, I mean, lockdown is literally code. The pandemic has changed everything. I think everyone is so much more responsive on education. People who used to laugh at me for using Zoubi now, like addicted to Zougam. It’s really interesting. Even people who aren’t that tech savvy are now like on Zulu’s. But it’s great. I mean, it’s opened up. So I don’t think this would have happened without pandemic’s. So I think it’s opened up a lot of a lot of opportunities. And I agree there’s a space for integrating both things. I do still think there is one hundred percent and need to have in-person courses that actual interaction with people in discussion is important, but a huge component can be delivered online. And as you said, I think the hybrid of having Zoome having you online and then having people on Zoome completely. I mean, that’s that’s that’s that’s fantastic idea. So, yeah, I think but I just think it’s just so beneficial because you’re able to reach for many more people, people who might not necessarily travel to your courses can now access it. So it’s just improving the education that we can deliver.

[00:51:30] It’s one thing that you wish. Dentist knew about Perrier, but they don’t.

[00:51:36] I think. One thing, I mean, quite a few things I would just

[00:51:44] You, if you

[00:51:46] Like, if it’s done well, you can do it well. It honestly can change someone’s life. I’m not joking. I have patients come back and they come back and they say to me, I just feel so much better. I have more energy. I just still be a different person. And it’s because of the amount of information they’ve gotten that can make an impact. So I’ve had patients come back and say my diabetes is now fully stable. Thank you so much. I mean, how satisfying is that? So I think don’t underestimate the value that you can provide with good care. Of course, you composites can be far more glamorous, but also they’re not really going to work unless your panels will help this pristine like we’ve all seen the cases on on Instagram where I mean, I just stare at the gums that you see some gums which are inflamed, never looks good. And sometimes it’s a nice pink and the whole case comes together so nicely. So we just wouldn’t underestimate the power of having it basically.

[00:52:43] So I think the systemic link is something really as a profession, we need to push more. I mean, I think there was even some chatter about the chances of having serious covid disease. Yes, but the Hotlinks been there for a long time and I feel like we don’t really talk about it now.

[00:53:04] I know it’s I find it really surprising. I think there is a big push on it now, but it’s such a hot topic. I mean, links between perio and diabetes, cardiovascular disease, but also the emerging ones like Alzheimer’s. There’s also babies busy with everything. And I remember when the Alzheimer’s one came out, I was in the BBC and all of the news I had patients actually Bookchin say I’m worried about getting Alzheimer’s. Can you check my gums? So patients are really hot on it. So I think we as a profession also need to be concerned. I mean, we should be saying to our patient, every patient that comes in. By the way, Mr. Smith, did you know that if we don’t get your gums under control, it may affect your general general health or by the way, we treat your gum disease? Did you know it might have a positive impact on your or your overall health? So patients might not be motivated about Perry, but they definitely might be motivated about their general health, and that’s one way to motivate them. So I think we do need to talk about it more. Sometimes it comes as a surprise that the mouth with the rest of the body, but it shouldn’t be because it’s all connected. So I think that that definitely should be more conversation with our patients, because you’ll find when you do talk to them about it, No. One, they’re interested in it and they take their health more seriously. The way I see things as well is it’s more multidisciplinary care. So working with, like diabetes specialists, working with other health care professionals. So we’re treating our patients holistically, not just about the gums and just about the teeth. It’s you. There are patients. At the end of the day, they’re a person. So treat, treat the whole thing.

[00:54:32] You know, the one thing that gets missed and it might be I’m looking at it from my my little lens is that, you know, white teeth. Yeah. As a profession, we push gums quite a lot compared to white teeth. And talking to hygiene is, you know, the whole question of behaviour change. Yeah. You know, patients who brush really will brush pretty well, a lot of them to keep their teeth white. And so I know our job is to re-educate, but there’s some scope for that. You know, we need we need to look at the psychology of a patient just as much as everything else. Go ahead, Prav. You look like

[00:55:09] You. Just something you said. This just resonated with me and I I’ve occasionally known to use widely praised and the you know, and Payman. Thank you. Thank you. I just need to send him a text message saying stick some Jarrod’s in the post May and they arrive the next day. But the one thing about my cleaning habits is that when my teeth are whiter, I give them more attention. And actually I’ve never thought about that until you’ve just mentioned it right now, that then I’ll pull out my little incidental brushes and the floss and give them extra care, because I’ve never I’ve never crossed my mind. But I do know is that around that time I’ve been wearing those hazmat my the way I’m giving my teeth a lot more. Look, you see that in clinic at all, or is that not part of what you’d observe and your typical practise?

[00:56:09] I completely agree. I think there’s a just a positive psychology of it, I think. And that’s similar to someone who’s got their start, even with their initial session with our hygiene is when they start noticing a difference, they get even more motivated and then they get even more motivated when they start to see their gums tighten up there. Oh, now I can see this is not hurting as much. So I think your patients have to see a change. They can’t you know, they’ve got to know what to look out for. So when your gums one of the biggest problems. In Paris, when you’re treating this condition, they’re going to get recession, when they see that, they’re going to think, oh my God, my mouth looks worse and my teeth are more sensitive. So then they’re not going to want to see you ever again. So I think the key thing is saying some what your gums are tightening up to health. It gums are just so swollen right now. So if you do notice them coming down, that’s a really good thing. So watch out for that. So it’s I mean, what ethos has always been positive? So not trying to tell the patient if you want to actually, you know what you’re doing really well.

[00:57:08] Now we’re going to issue intensive brushes. If you notice your gums get tighter, then that’s a good thing if they’re more sensitive. Yes. Well, actually, it’s probably a good thing. Don’t worry, we can deal with that. But if you notice that, it means you may be improving. So I think definitely we have to there’s a psychology of them nursing change. If they look better and they feel better as well, they’re more likely to comply. So it’s all kind of a three sixty one feeds the other. And that’s why in Auckland we are actually starting enlightened, exciting, actually, for the reason that also they get something that they’re looking forward to something. So at the end of all this gum treatment, yeah, you’re going to be able to have some whitening because now you can make it look nice as well. So there has to be an element of aesthetics, and that’s one element of feeling good and looking good and all. But it all works together. I think it’s got to work together.

[00:57:59] You know, you touched upon the mouth is connected to everything else, and gum disease can downstream impacts absolutely everything. And obviously the converse is true if we just look at systemic inflammation as an example and all the things that can impact that from sleep to what you eat, to exercise to even supplementation of various vitamins and minerals and whatnot. And what part of your role do you fulfil in giving advice to patients on things like that in and around the community? I know you touched upon it earlier. You were talking about how stress can impact things and whatnot. And so do you find your role as more of a holistic practitioner as well, or do you stick primarily to what’s going on in the mouth?

[00:58:51] Yeah, I think the thing is you have to be realistic to treat someone successfully, you have to look at everything. I’m not saying you become like a specialist in nutrition or specialist stress psychologists or whatever, but you do have to touch on it and give them the advice whether they have to then seek medical help or see someone else. I think it’s you do need to treat people. Has to. So, yes, in the clinic, whether it’s me, whether it’s the hygiene, we’re all touching base on the whole, the patient as a whole. To be fair, the way I see things going, which is happening to us already is almost working in a centre where you have, for example, a nutritionist working that you have a diabetes specialist and you all kind of working together. That’s where I see things going in the future. So be interesting to see what happens with that. But yeah, you can’t with perio especially, you can’t just look at the gums in the pockets and the bleeding. You’ve got to look at risk factors is a major part of what we do

[00:59:50] Is any test for susceptibility that works.

[00:59:54] Um, there’s no one test that you can do. Do you mean genetic susceptibility or just to

[01:00:00] Go to the environment? I mean, is there something some some saliva test or plaque test or something?

[01:00:06] Yeah, not at the moment that you can use routinely in practise that would work. So it’s more about a conversation about risk factors like diabetes, for example. How well controlled is your diabetes, which to be able to see? That type of marker is quite good. Things may change like you may get inflammatory markers or whatever. You take some from the from the pocket and look at that. But right now, it’s it’s not very practical thing that you can do on a daily basis. But the other thing I mean is genetics. Some people are genetically more susceptible. And I think there’s a huge I say to my patients, there’s a huge unfair element to this. And quite honestly, when I when I speak to the patient, they’re actually more accepting of their condition and they’re more likely to then say, OK, I want to do something about it, rather than the practitioner who says you want to brush your teeth. It’s all your fault. That kind of I mean, to me, I would just be like, OK, this doesn’t make me feel very nice. I don’t I don’t want to I don’t want to know about this. And I just switch off with, say, someone will. Miss Smith, part of the reason why you’ve got perio is genetics that we can’t control. But there is an unfair element. They might be actually, it’s not my fault. But, you know, I’m going to try and do something about it. So genetics is one we can’t control, but it should be a part of the conversation. And that doesn’t just apply to certain patients. Like half the reason why people have perio is genetic. So and then there’s risk factors. So don’t kind of push that to the side of things in a conversation to have with all patients

[01:01:31] In the different facets of your work. So you’ve got running the business, treating a patient clinically, having that patient interaction and changing the life and then teaching, you know, helping other dentists improve their skills, become better off doing what they do and what you prefer doing.

[01:01:50] I see I see a bit of content creation there as well. And you do enjoy the.

[01:01:55] Yeah, I think I actually enjoy everything in combination. Like, I couldn’t just teach all week. I couldn’t just see patients all week. I think having that balance to be one when I was studying, when one of my teachers actually said to me, it’s always worth having a balance, bit of the little practise, bit of teaching. But if, as you said, content creation, digital, the that works really well. And I think I’ve kind of figured out what works for me in terms of the number of days, how I want to do things. So I do have a large component not seeing patients, but I’ve got kind of half of that with teaching and half of it with other stuff. So I think I don’t think I can pick one thing. I think I’d have to do everything together to enjoy it the best.

[01:02:37] So you came out with this tongue scraper thing? Yeah. So it’s about that journey.

[01:02:43] Yeah. And so I always wanted my own product, but I realised quite quickly on I couldn’t compete with the big or the Colgate companies on toothbrushes and toothpaste. And one thing that I found enlightening was bad breath caused by a tongue coating and the two biggest causes of bad breath. One is gum disease, one is tomcatting. And the total sweep is that we’re out there would just like like the plastic ones. Firstly, I wanted to get away from plastic. I just didn’t feel they were very effective. So then I thought one in my country. But so that was really fun. So I designed it, that kind of stuff, packaged it. And again, it was just something that I was originally just going to give to my own patients. And then it ended up being quite popular. So we sell online to maybe resell at some point as well. So that was pretty fun. And I’d say pretty much all our patients buy one when they see the hygiene. So we got fancy with it. We had it ability to engrave people’s names on it, things like that, which is we get some interesting stuff on that. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s been more of a fun project to be the. And having your own product is quite nice that you can then give to your patients and you think, wow, my dentist actually made their own product. It’s quite nice.

[01:04:00] I’ve always thought this should be like incidental brushing machine. That’s better than you always thought. I always thought you could have something you could stick in between everyone’s teeth. They an impression and then the angles are all correct and then you make something for them to get you in.

[01:04:21] Most of the time, I think it would be tricky, but you never know.

[01:04:28] So really, twenty thousand plus followers on Instagram told us about that journey, how you got there and what that is like as a influence on your life. How often do you check your phone? How often do you have to create content for that? Do you have to keep the story wheel spinning every day just to talk to us about social media?

[01:04:50] Yeah, I mean, social media for me. I don’t quite quickly after I started my blog page, because then I wanted platforms to share everything. When I first off, it was all about Facebook. Right. And now it’s all about Instagram and all the other platforms. I have some tech talks on my thing. The Instagram is kind of where things are happening right now. So that’s that’s where I’ve picked as my main platform. I think social media is a great way of spreading messages and sharing things, perhaps in a more informal way. So I set up my own personal Instagram account, which I call it personal. But the thing is, it’s it’s you can’t think that it’s on your personal page. It is kind still has to be professional in anything you do online. But Mirena on your page rather than my OTTAVI Paragould page, I set up first. And with social media, I think it is pretty much another job, to be honest. And if you want to do it and wants it, well, you’ve got to give it time. You’ve got to be prepared to engage with people. You’ve got to be prepared for conflict. You’ve got to be prepared to whatever you put out there that everyone is seeing is essentially a amplification tool. So whatever you put out that it’s going to be magnified. Everyone’s going to see it. And even if you delete things, that’s always going to be that really. So I really enjoy it. I think it’s very valuable. I think you get to reach out to people and share things that you might know.

[01:06:08] And for me, my personal one is more just sharing my journey, inspiring people, whereas my older people, one is more carrier based and sharing cases and what’s possible and patient testimonials. But it takes time and it takes time, as in not just the bills, but on a daily basis. So yes, I have at times during the day when I go on social media, for me at the beginning I was literally on my phone the whole time, like when I first started the whole social media thing. And it’s so easy to get caught up in that bubble of just being on your phone the whole time. And I realise it can get quite stressful as long as you’re constantly reading comments and having to reply to that. If you read a comment, you just feel like the urge to reply straight away. So then I decided on social media twice a day. So usually at lunch time, then at some point in the evening, and I try not to do it in the morning and instead of just try to preserve that time for the most important things. But I do limit myself and I think with social media now and a lot of young dentists’, I run a course for young Dental School F. Q And one of the things we teach is about social media. And if you’re going to create an account, you’ve got to know why you doing it. What are you trying to are you trying to, for example, for professional reasons for your patients? Are you trying to impress your peers? Are you trying to inspire others that you need to know what you were doing before you set it up? Well, one of the biggest things that I would say is, do you have the time for and do you have the content like content creation is you’ve got to have enough content as well.

[01:07:35] You don’t want to be posting once a month. You want to be posting quite regularly. So have you got that content ready as well? So it’s a whole other world and it’s very, very, very easy to compare yourself against other people as well. So I get a lot of message messages from younger Dental saying I want to set up a page, but I don’t think I’m good enough. And I see all these amazing cases, which, of course are everyone’s best cases on Instagram. And I feel it unfair. And I do feel like a post up. I hate literally all the time, but I think it’s very important not to negatively compare yourself with others on social media. You should just use it as inspiration. And what can you learn from them? Because it’s so easy to feel insufficient when you see some other people’s stuff online. So I think it’s such a simple message that people who are graduating students, they need to know that that it’s use as inspiration. Don’t compare yourself. Otherwise you can feel quite insecure about self.

[01:08:32] Do manage this all yourself. Really. You have got someone doing it for you or you post everything yourself.

[01:08:39] Yeah, I mean, on my personal projects, everything myself, on my practise page, I do have someone helping me for them in my clinic, but pretty much it’s me on my own page. I think it has to be. You’ve got to be. In an authentic and organic, no one can write a post for you and post pictures of you because people can see through that quite quickly. So if you want to grow and grow organically to the strengths, you’ve got to do so. Yeah, I mean, there are tools out there to help you that you have social media calendars where you can put things in advance to save you time. I’m just I don’t use that. But there are things if you are super busy and you’d rather get a whole bulk of posts out there for the week, do you not think it’s going to be you? It’s going to be authentic.

[01:09:23] Have you dabbled in paid marketing as well? I mean, you’ve got the horses, the tongue scraper, all that. Have you have you done some ads?

[01:09:28] I’ve done, yeah. I’ve done my courses on Perry School. I used Facebook and it works pretty well. I mean, what it does, it allows you to reach people who might not know about your calls. So I would I’m all for Facebook as it’s the only one I’ve tried, but I think there’s a lot of things out there, so it just allows you to record it.

[01:09:46] So, yeah, I think the Facebook has worked really well when especially with something remote like the like the online courses targeting dentists in other countries and stuff like that. Yeah.

[01:09:59] What do you do outside of work for you know, if you had half a day to yourself, what would you do.

[01:10:07] Yes, do I live next to Hyde Park, so I always I’m pretty much always there in my free time, I really enjoy going on walks into podcasts, although I don’t have a dog, I don’t love my husband. Let me have dog things compared to myself. So no dogs for now. But some my friends, if they look after themselves and look after random dogs, which is fun. I love cooking pretty much and veggie pretty much vegan. So being in deserts are a fun thing for me to do and I love reading as well. So and of course when we can meet up with friends is always a good time. I try to surround myself with people who are positive and a lot of my friends and non Dental actually they’re very successful in their own fields and I find that inspiring. So I like surprising with Dental people as well. I can.

[01:10:59] Really, the veggie vegan thing, is that a sort of sustainability, religious animal cruelty? What what’s what’s the what’s the motivation behind that?

[01:11:11] Yes, I’ve been veggie all my life, actually vegetarian all my life. So both religions I’m Hindu, I’m sonar. And so also very straight on ethics and things like that. It’s also something I’ve grown up with. Also, obviously, the animal cruelty side and the whole thing, really. But the initial reason was, was religion. But yeah, it’s great. Now, I remember like 10 years ago, there were no options for vegetarians because the thing is, like tons of stuff, which is which is nice, I think when before was quite difficult,

[01:11:42] Like it was I grew up I was born a vegetarian, if that’s the thing. Right. And I think I think the first twenty five, twenty two, twenty three years of my life I was a vegetarian and then I started lifting weights and my friends said to me, look, if you want to put some muscle on, you’ve got to eat chicken. So as I turned it over to the dark side and then actually more recently, my daughter came home one day and said, Dad, I want to be a vegetarian. And I said, Which one of your mates is a vegetarian? And she said, no, this is why I gave me a whole bunch of reasons. And she flipped us all the whole family vegetarian.

[01:12:23] Oh, my God, it’s amazing.

[01:12:25] It was pretty amazing. We tried to gone for a while and as much as as much as I’d love to. I can’t give up.

[01:12:34] So that’s the kind of eagerness she is is like kind of. Yeah.

[01:12:40] I mean, as you may you may have heard this question before, but, you know, we like to end this podcast just on legacy values and things like that so much. It was your your last night on the planet. And you had you know, you were surrounded by your loved ones and you have to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What would those special.

[01:13:13] Three pieces of wisdom,

[01:13:16] Life advice, whatever, whatever you want to call.

[01:13:19] Yeah, I guess the first one would be have the courage, I guess, to live a life true to yourself. So I think often we live a life with trying to please someone else and other people’s expectations. But I think it’s so important that you read actually people’s you read all these things online, actually people’s regrets. And sometimes it’s just that they regret living their lives and pleasing others when it’s actually you want to be true to yourself. So I think the first thing is follow your heart, follow your intuition. They know what you want to be at the end of the day. You want to enjoy what you do in your life. As I said, you’re going to be doing it for most of the day, for most of your life. So don’t worry about anyone else. If you don’t enjoy something, there’s no point doing it, like find something you enjoy and make that your career and make that your your life. So I think sometimes it’s great to get advice from people, but if it’s not true to what you believe in, then it’s probably not the right thing to do. I guess my second one would be from kind of the last few years, I guess. Is that your comfort zone? Like, normally what you fear the most is what you need to do the most. So especially when I was doing the new kind of field, I was like, oh my God, what am I doing? This is a massive risk.

[01:14:37] I’m totally out of my comfort zone. I can easily just carry on where I am uncomfortable, but I realise I’m not going to grow unless I push myself. Same thing with surgical procedures, same thing with anything we do. If it doesn’t Scanadu, it’s probably not that important. So you’ve got to push yourself because once you prove yourself, it feels really good. You’re like, OK, I’m here now. Then you look for your next challenge. I think going out your comfort zone should be ingrained in us to be able to grow in life. I guess what else? One of the I guess is not really. My mantra is one of putting my faith. A guru always says in the joy of others lies your own. And for me that I always trust the back of my mind. So supporting others, like making sure other people around you are happy, is important sometimes you know and well, our life is short. We need to support each other sometimes the negativity out there. But I think we’ve got to try and build each other up and surround ourselves with people who are positive. And I think that will be my third one is in the joy of others lives around, both full of professionals, of all patients, I guess. Like one more excuse.

[01:15:45] Well, am I not going to give us

[01:15:49] Any other advice? But one thing I would say from from the way I’ve sort of gone, I’m still very early in my career, but sometimes it does make sense, like whilst you’re doing it. But then when you look back, the dots do connect. So sometimes it’s like, oh, oh, are you sure this is the right thing? And how is it going to kind of pan itself out if it feels right, if you enjoy it and all the other things said, it may not make sense of the time, but you realise what happened in ways that everything happens for a reason, even if it’s a negative thing. I’m not actually be a negative thing when you look back in 10 years, time to think that bonus also.

[01:16:27] Also when when you’re in it, when you’re in it, you don’t realise how significant the thing you’re doing is. Yeah. And it’s only years later sometimes and Prav, I’m sure you’re the same. You look back and you remember all that stuff I did at that point really was significant. But when you’re in it, it’s harder to sort of see the wood for the trees. Is it very lovely, lovely things you said, but your number one and number three, you of opposition with each other, which I really like

[01:16:53] Dental then

[01:16:55] Of course,

[01:17:00] And you’ll see how would you like to be remembered? Sorina was. Don’t Dental,

[01:17:09] I guess I want to be inspirational, I guess, for the dentists, for them to push the limits and not let age or anything else define you and just go for it no matter what people say. And I guess I wouldn’t want to be known for making a difference in the world, ultimately improving the health of the nation, if I can, but ultimately making it more competitive. I think it would be nice to be a wonderful, beautiful.

[01:17:36] And if you had. Thirty days. Left with your health advocate intact and you can do anything you wanted for those 30 days, what would you do?

[01:17:51] Oh, I think I spent days with my family. A family is everything to me, so I think I spend them with my family probably on a nice tropical island somewhere on a beach. Having a great time without being my ideal first is

[01:18:08] Really, really, really. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. It’s been truly so impressive.

[01:18:16] Thank you for having me.

[01:18:19] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street.

[01:18:30] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:18:35] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:18:49] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:19:00] And don’t forget our six star rating.

We’re super excited to welcome onto this week’s show wavemaker and Harley Street cosmetic dentist, Payman Sobhani.

Payman talks about success on Instagram, DJing in Ibiza and running an award-winning practice. 

Hear Payman cover the art of composite bonding, making memories at uni and working with family on Harley Street.



“Someone’s coming to you in pain, you’ve got them out of pain at a time when you didn’t have space to do it, and then I might do something weird, just be like, you know, don’t worry about it. Don’t pay for it this time. Just bring me someone else…” – Payman Sobhani


In This Episode


02.52 – Uni up North

06:31 – Having a brother on Harley Street

11.19 – Not having a closing time

18.18 – Qatar Embassy

19:33 – Beginning a business

24:26 – One-man-shows on Harley Street

25:20 – Bromley

29:43 – DJing

33:04 – Ibiza

33:30 – Dental beauty

35:50 – 49/51 split

39:08 – Portfolio critique

42:10 – Spotting potential

47:11 – General dentistry

50:42 – Implantology

54:24 – Staying within your scope

01:01:47 – Being a clinical director

01:09:44 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Payman Sobhani


Payman qualified from Leeds Dental School in 2012 and held two associate positions in Stevenage and Harley Street. Payman’s interests lie in restorative and cosmetic dentistry.

Payman is a member of the British Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry and is the Clinical Director of Dental Beauty in Bromley and is also practising at 104 Harley Street, London.

[00:00:00] Someone’s coming to you in pain, you’ve got them out of pain at a time when you didn’t have space to do it, and then I might do something weird, just be like, you know, don’t worry about it. Don’t don’t pay for it this time. Just bring me someone else. Just random things like that. And they’re already shocked. Amazed, like they’re always like, oh, this is incredible. You’ve done so much for me. I’m so happy. I mean, I’m out of pain. And then you kind of just like, you know what another element of it, if I wanted money from you today, I’ve just I’ve done that before. If you want as an example of something that will just give you something to talk about. But then off the back of that, I’ve had patients. I’ve had I know I’ve had people come to me, I’ve had gifts given to be I’ve had concert tickets, all these sort of things come off the back of just making someone happy, you know, just doing something different.

[00:00:50] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:07] Gives me great pleasure to welcome the other Payman from Dental Payman Kabani young dentist is making waves from, from my perspective, seeing your wonderful work on Instagram and and your wonderful work on the DJ decks. But he is

[00:01:24] A pleasure to have you both. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

[00:01:27] Tell me about your brother’s highly accomplished sort of Harley Street and the dentist. Is that the reason why you became a dentist?

[00:01:36] I probably wouldn’t say it is that I think he definitely had an influence on my choices career. But it was actually when he sent me to his friends so I could get braces that made me want to be an orthodontist to begin with, which is funny because now is my least favourite thing to do. However, it it definitely started something by seeing what he was he was achieving and what he was doing gave me an idea. But I kind of always wanted to be maybe a few different choices, you know, when to be a plastic surgeon. I still want to be a plastic surgeon. I still think I’d be great for plastic surgeons. But I think that with being an architect. But it was only when I really went to have my braces that I thought, yeah, dentistry is for me.

[00:02:17] Where did you study

[00:02:18] Study in Leaders class of 2012 qualified. Yeah, and it was it was a great time. Needs was I say I feel sorry for people that didn’t go to Leaders. I think everyone feels that way about their uni. But I think all this kind of student cities, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, all those places where people have real fun at uni. And I think I always highly recommend people asking me where to go. I always say get out of London and go to places like that.

[00:02:46] When you go up north, did you feel like an outsider being from London at all?

[00:02:52] I think there was there was a lot of Londoners that I think went there. And and Leeds is a city that is run by students. It’s you’ve got like two or three hundred thousand students, I think through five or six different universities is kind of you know, there’s a lot of different units there and it’s a huge one. So when the students aren’t there, there’s no one there. So, you know, people coming from all parts of all walks of life or different backgrounds, which is why I guess it’s such a fun place to be. Feni.

[00:03:21] Rove was very similar, actually, when when when the real students used to leave, when we were left there, when we were the longer terms. Exactly. You could feel the town just just go down

[00:03:33] Because it

[00:03:33] Was such a big part of the population. I’m sure Oxford was very similar to Prav.

[00:03:39] And I stayed there when a lot of the other students went home and it was just like bicycle’s chained to railings, left there for like six weeks or whatever, and it’s a ghost town. So that’s why my my friend Circle was always what we refer to as townies and then students. Right. So I had had quite a varied friends circle and, you know, and that was the reason why really, because when the sued most of the students, it called. I was still

[00:04:06] Hanging out there. So, yeah. What were you like, the Dental stupid. What was I like as Dental student? I think much the same as I was throughout school, throughout everything. I was just plain average, I think. I don’t think I was you know, I’ve never really excelled anything academically. I think I was always middle ground to the point where even though I actually I actually failed my A-levels, I’m one of those retake chemistry guys. It was never natural to me to be a science based person. I think I was always very English literature. I did for A-levels. I did art for a little while. And so those two were easy to me. I didn’t I didn’t struggle with those. That was something that but in the biology and chemistry, that was kind of like, OK, I need to spend some more time on this, but I never really wanted to. But I knew I wanted to be a dentist, I guess because of the art side of it, which made more sense to me as to anything else.

[00:05:02] Do you think now, like we were talking about kids and, you know, you haven’t got any kids yet. But let’s let’s project forward. Your parents were sort of the first generation immigrants, as were mine. And, you know, first generation immigrants tend to push their kids into these sciences sort of practical degrees. Do you think now you as a second generation, you know, fully established kind of kid, if your kid was more arts and literature based durcan, you’d push them into, not push them, but allow him to be a movie maker or whatever?

[00:05:35] Yeah, I think absolutely. I think I sometimes the back of my mind, I think what if I just did that path and see see what had happened and all that I was ever that great at. It was just something that I think came more natural to me than the sciences. But I think that for sure, if someone if you know, if my kids were into that and I think I’d want them to be into that, I’d want them to I I’d hope they were a little bit more into that bit more that creative side and a bit more. You can get more out of that. I think in some ways dentistry is is is great, but you’re kind of stuck as a dentist. I think that’s that’s what you know, there’s no there’s nowhere else you can go. I always kind of intrigued to know these are the degrees other people take up. The other courses are the degrees and they they go down different paths and start new careers. Everyone knows where dentistry is. No one knows what you do. If you end up doing something like arts or something that you end up you can go anywhere else with that, you know. So I think I would I would I would encourage it for sure.

[00:06:31] And your brother, I mean, when you became a dentist, he was already fully established on Harley Street.

[00:06:39] Exactly. It was.

[00:06:43] So you were kind of accelerated into that world?

[00:06:45] Yeah, I think I was. I don’t know. I don’t know how many people came out of dental school into Harley Street. I think that was that was that that was your. Well, I did vte. I did. And elsewhere. But towards the end of my Betsie, I’d already started working there. I didn’t even allow the things that we to go to like May. I think he went on holiday and he was like, you know, let’s see what you can do. And I remember he said that he was on our graduation day. Actually, it was always in his mind. I think that that would be the plan on my graduation day. He just said, let’s see what you can do if you fly or swim in that environment. And I went straight into that after towards the end of VTE. And, yeah, I’m still there. I’ve been there the whole time. And it was it was a gift, I guess that, you know, I always say it that way. It was always very fortunate to have been given that opportunity very early in my career. Some people come to me asking advice and what they can what they should do and what path they should take to get this job. And I’m like, you know, you’re probably not asking the right person because it was it was given to me. And which is a different situation to most, but I had to fit the role. I think that was that’s the difference as to where I had to go through my head to the game so I could fit in with that crowd, I guess.

[00:08:09] I mean, it’s a Prav, it’s his his brother’s practise is one of the most beautiful Praksis I’ve ever been to. It was stunning. Anyway, those buildings are stunning, aren’t they? Anyway, he’s done he’s done something wonderful with it as well.

[00:08:23] We’re moving we’re moving on to the new one next month, removing. Oh, really? Really. So we’re moving two to one to seven, which is opposite. He’s expanded the surgery there and he’s just in the midst of the build for that. So literally across the road. But that’s going to be an amazing practise. I mean, if that was anything to go by, which was 12 years ago, this is going to be a, you know, referral centre is going to have all the top equipment. Everything has been put into this place. So I’ve kind of went to see it when he first got the keys and I said, I’m not really going to go back until it’s done. And I’m kind of involved in my room and the planning of that. But I just I don’t want to see it. I’m just going to want to kind of just walk in and experience it. That’s kind of where I get that one really proud of me for doing it, especially at times. And I like to think I helped along the way maybe to get it to the point where it had been there for eight years. I like to think that it my baby on his say. But yeah, it’s exciting.

[00:09:24] Having a brother in the field is super useful. I mean, I’m thinking of Depay. She’s got one brother who’s a dentist, one brother’s technician. And are you aware of that? Do you do you feel that or not? You know, you could have any questions answered straight away by someone who’s fully experienced.

[00:09:43] I’ve tried to always keep that in the back of my mind that I’m lucky to have that. You know, I didn’t let that slip away from me. I think he was always a clinical dentist. Does he’s a clinician first and foremost as a as a mind over being a business owner or being a practise owner. But I think having him as a mentor from that perspective of clinical dentistry was one thing. But also, I think what I learnt way more than that, even from him is, is management of of patients and his staff for sure, because your staff are incredibly loyal to him. But management of patients has what I think is really stuck with me and how to speak to people and how to understand them and how to do things that they they don’t expect in order for you to stand out from the crowd. Give them give them a reason to talk about you, I think is at dinner. That’s what I always do, something that day to make your patient go home and tell their wife about you. Not just that. I went to the dentist today. I went to the dentist and you did this and it was my blue, like that sort of thing that was really strange. And expect that that’s what I’ve always seen him do day in, day out. And that’s what I think stuck with me and made me able to treat patients the way I do.

[00:10:56] So can you give us an example of either one thing? You brother, you’ve done the sort of things like stand out, you know, is it is it shock and awe service? Is it is it going above and beyond? And just some specifics in terms of what are you delivering that makes that patient not only say, hey, you know, I got my teeth fixed today, I’ve got a beautiful smile, but something else that sparks that conversation, I think

[00:11:19] I think we don’t have an opening line. We don’t have a closing time. I think that’s one thing. If you have an issue, you will be seen, I think is, you know, if you call us up and you say, listen, I’ve got this problem, I need to be seen by someone, we will accommodate that. Firstly, I think that’s because of our patient base, our patient base of ninety five percent, probably 90 percent Katari. So we’ve always worked on the basis of these guys. I’m going to be around. So you have to do the work when you don’t. But in the sense of what we may do for that patient is, you know, typically things that we you know, I personally had examples where a patient may come in excruciating pain first. They have accommodated them at the end of my day and maybe they’re two, eight, nine p.m. and then they always find a root canal example was really good. That’s probably why it’s been successful for him, is because someone’s coming to you in a lot of pain. You’ve got them out of pain at a time when you didn’t have space to do it. And then I might do something weird, just be like, you know, don’t worry about it.

[00:12:17] Don’t don’t pay for it this time. Just bring me someone else. Just random things like that. And they’re already shops amazed, like they’re always like, oh, this is incredible. You’ve done so much for me. I’m so happy. I mean, I’m out of pain. And then you kind of just like, you know, another element of it. If I wanted money from you today, I’ve just I’ve done that before. If you want as an example of something that would just give you something to talk about. But in the back of that, I’ve had patients I’ve had I know I’ve had people come to me. I’ve had gifts given to be at that concert tickets. All these other things come off the back of just making someone happy, you know, just doing something different. I don’t recommend it was not a great business model, but it’s a good way to kind of just because, again, for our practise, we’ve never we have never had a website. We don’t have a website. You won’t find us, really. And it’s. Always been like that is purely word of mouth, purely word of mouth, Payman.

[00:13:12] What is it about the point where there must be some energy in the room or something for you to turn around and say, no problem, buddy. This one’s on the house, right? I remember when my dad had the cornershop, he gave the old musbah away. Right. But what that was usually a connexion, right? Whatever it was. What is it about? You go through that treatment you did. And he said, you know what, buddy? Don’t worry about it.

[00:13:36] It’s I think I think it is Mitry that I think sometimes I just like to shock and surprise. And I think I think it’s when you’ve obviously had that rapport with them, you can tell that they’re really happy with everything. You can tell that they’re already going to talk about you. And it’s just adding that little extra thing sometimes that, you know, again, I could probably count on one hand, some have done that, but I know off the back of it and I think it’s just in that room, you just that patient is already so grateful that already you’ve already done everything that you needed to do to to to get them to the point where they’re happy with the service that you provided. But it may not still be enough to for them to talk to you about the talk about you over dinner with their friends on a Friday night. Just, you know something, just if I went to this amazing practise and it’s not going to be voicing that they had something for free, it’s going to be more waisting. I went to this beautiful practise. I saw dentistry. Listen to what I said. I didn’t experience any pain. It’s all those things that I expect they’ll remember and then then express to others.

[00:14:44] And just just the clarity of the business. Right. Is this a business that you control with your brother? Are you an associate there? What’s what’s the special?

[00:14:53] I’m an associate that practise. And this there’s been talks of of of things potentially in the future. But I’ve never seen it as that for me or, you know, I’ve seen it as my brother’s practise. I, I think if it was an opportunity or the right time, the right opportunity came across. Maybe, maybe that what would make sense down the line, I think it could well go that way. But I’ve done something else by my own practise separately to that to kind of just be like, you know, this is also there is another opportunity, something else that I can do.

[00:15:28] So question for you that if it wasn’t your brother’s practise, would you still give treatment away on the house?

[00:15:35] Yeah, no, I think that’s that’s what he would do. I do things that I. I see how he’s done it. All of these things are just kind of like what he’s done before. Yeah. I don’t think it’s these things that I’ve probably come up with by myself. It’s things that I’ve seen and it may not be that and it’s not always that, but there’s just things that we that we would we almost all our patients on my business call has my personal mobile number. Every patient after that will get that personal mobile number and they never call. You know, it’s not always like always giving that away. You know, it was going to bother you. I’ve been giving that call out for eight years and very rarely do I get any message. Sometimes I get like a happy birthday or something like a someone complaining about anything or any issues. But it’s that you see that in their eyes when you done that and you’ve given them that number and you said, that’s my personal number. And if you’ve got you can call me directly. You face something like, oh, wow, taken aback by it. And it’s just I think it’s an extra blanket of support that they know they have. Having been to that practise

[00:16:40] Payman a couple of questions. How did it end up being 90 percent Katari and how how does it differ from treating patients who don’t live here and, you know, the cultural issues that were there.

[00:16:56] So initially it came again, this is Leaders on perfectly to this because this whole business model came from one patient. So there’s again, that whole model comes from treating that one patient correctly who happens to be connected to the Qatari embassy. And that’s what we still see. That patient, my brother still sees him. And, you know, by having done that, he’s gone back to where he’s worked to be like, oh, we need someone to refer to. Let me send you all our patients. So then the embassy pays for their treatment mostly. But it’s like NHS. They won’t pay for some things. You know, there’s there’s an implant dentistry, the basic dentistry. I generally don’t pay for it. So if they want that treatment to be done, then they found that themselves and now they get it. Things change over time. They start to pay a little bit less. They start to prove less patient. But that patient base is difficult because they’re coming in with translators. So you’re only ever as good as your translator. They’re coming in with medical histories as long as your arm. I don’t know what it is about some of those countries, but it’s like, I guess some Iranians, they just don’t really you know, they sometimes I just think they can pay their way out of it or there’s someone that can pay their way out of it for them. So there’s long medical histories and they don’t know their medical history. They don’t really know what’s wrong with them, even, you know. And then you’ve got to have this whole conversation is to like you need all this work to be done. You’ve got two weeks to do it because they’re about to leave the country. You’ve got to get approval from the office for the treatment to go ahead. And they expect that they can pay for that. They always will pay for everything. So they like. Yeah, doctor, I want Hollywoods my. I can’t give you that, my friend.

[00:18:45] You say we consider that if you consider setting up a little branch in Doha.

[00:18:50] Yeah. That’s that’s you know, I always watch this space sort of situation with that one with me. It’s always, always had that in the back of his mind. And it’s and he goes there a lot. You go there every every six weeks or so to see patients are really six weeks to maybe six weeks, two months, something like that. You’ll go there to see patients. So, yeah, it it makes sense, I guess, but it’s weird. It’s become like a brand, you know, Savani, because we see so many of the patients and we see a lot of that. They’re important people let’s say. So I think they become a little bit of a brand. People want to come to see Savani. Just it just

[00:19:33] It just goes to show, doesn’t it? Prav, I know this would be resonating with you, that sort of hand-to-hand combat of the beginning of business where you haven’t got enough customers, patients, whatever, whichever business it is, and you’re going out of your way for every single one, you know, surprise and delight, shock and awe, whatever you want to call, just doing everything you can for the few customers that you’ve got and and that one customer patient becoming the source of twenty years. But instead of you know, it just goes to show how how important that human touch to service element is. Absolutely.

[00:20:14] And I think that’s that’s why it’s been so. For me, the other thing is I kind of I for everyone knows this because I’ve always been in it. I think it was always something that I thought that it’s just every practise does it this way. And so you realise that it’s not like that. And, you know, as I’ve bought my own practise, I realise that you’ve got to you’ve got to show people that you’ve got to train people to to have that mentality and to do things in that way, because it’s all about that patient journey. Right. From how it is when they pick up the phone to how it is when they they’ve left your practise and they’ve got your mobile number as a as a as a blanket, I guess, of, you know, is that sort of touch with things is I thought everyone did. And then I really realised it wasn’t that way.

[00:21:05] And, you know, that sort of high end level of service that you deliver, you know, not having in a close in time, for example, or just going above and beyond. Right. Or perhaps when you’re in someone’s mouth and you see something, I actually think, you know, I’ll just tidy up a while I’m here sort of thing, and I just go that extra mile and, you know, if I’ve just got my business head on right. And I’ve just got my numbers head on, I look at and I it’s not scalable as a business model.

[00:21:32] Right.

[00:21:33] But from the other from the other side, I look at it and think you’re providing a level of service that nobody else does. Right. And that and that’s your USP when you’re looking at, let’s say, the growth of your practise or the growth of your business or the growth of you moving forward, because staying open till 9:00 pm every night isn’t scalable either, especially when the kiddies come along. And although Payman might tell you to delay that process,

[00:22:01] He’s got his hand on. He said, I’ll get these days to get out right now.

[00:22:10] And what is what is the plan? Is is it to deliver like just the highest and service that’s delivered by you and people come to see you? Because I can’t see you having a team of six, seven, eight associates who will deliver what you deliver unless they come with the same family. And this has got to come from family values. Right. And unless they come with them, it’s going to be hard to find and replicate.

[00:22:36] Yeah, I think I think that’s definitely true, and that’s what I’ve always kind of said to me, just to like, what’s the plan? Like what where where is it going? Because he’s he’s 20 years old and he’s in his fifties now and he’s just building another practise and he’s thinking of you thinking this and that. And it’s like, where does it kind of stop? Where does it where does it go? Where’s the end up? I think we’ve got you got better as time’s going on. I think we go through periods where we call riding the wave. I guess if there’s if there’s an influx of patients here, then we will see them. So it’s not always like that in times we skate it back and we were less busy and, you know, we have more normal lives. But you’re totally right in that sense of where does it where does it go from here? How do you sell that sort of thing on which I guess one of the reasons that I started looking at other things in terms of what if I’m looking at a business perspective, it didn’t make sense to me for, you know, going in and buying that sort of practise is where does it at the moment? It didn’t. I think what I needed to do was to maybe get a little bit of a business experience in a little bit of money behind me or something that I could actually afford to run a practise that way, because I would like to I think ultimately I’d like to come back and have one practise that I work in and is run that way. And I don’t really mind about what’s going to happen later on. I think that’s how he’s he’s done it.

[00:24:10] Do you see this as a business sort of centred around your lifestyle, your values, what you want to deliver, rather than this machine that you want to multiply and grow and scale? Because at the end of it, you are the business, right? Payman.

[00:24:26] So absolutely, I think but I think that goes to say for pretty much all of the practises on Wall Street or or, you know, it’s it is that way. Holosuite practises are very One-Man Show. There is there is everything generally coming to see my brother first and foremost and he’s busy. So that’s kind of how it really works. But it’s but it is that show and it’s always it’ll always be generally is that game. And I think every practise that there is is a little bit that way. No one’s got multiple practises on Wall Street or has some history as multiple other ones, because it does take up a lot of your time to to grow a practise like that.

[00:25:08] What about when you bought your Bromley practise? The difference, I mean, that must be a totally different type of patients and probably did you buy it when you started?

[00:25:20] So I’m one of the Dental D.C. partners with with death. Oh, yes. So they’ve I’ve known them for for a long time, mainly for Amet. And a couple of other friends who I met were quite good friends at uni. We were at its wedding when I’ve known that before. But we got it. We started speaking about it really. And it kind of just made sense on the basis of the fact that if I am a clinician, I love clinical dentistry and I but I’ve always wanted to own my own practise. But I also feel like to do it in a in a way that I know makes business sense as well. I don’t want to just kind of put all my money into it and work there and not really get anywhere. I’d like to hit the ground running, I guess. And that’s what Dental beauty as a group will will allow, allows clinicians that a good dentist. Fundamentally, there are a lot of good dentists. What exactly this all this coming on board that that I know of. And it’s a movement that’s happening and it’s because you have that clinical freedom to do what you want to do and you can do it completely your own way because it is your your practise. But I wouldn’t have chosen you or you. They will do the practise with you if they didn’t think you were up to the standards.

[00:26:32] And that was important for me. I wasn’t I didn’t want to go in as a a corporate and be told I can’t audit this. I can’t do that. I wanted to be given complete clinical freedom to do the dentistry that I want to do, the way that I want to do it and the way that Dental butI know that I do it, which is why they chose me or wanted me to do the practise with. So there was an appreciation there that I felt which made sense. But Bromley is as a place it was it was it was a practise that they were already in the middle of buying. And it was it just made sense. It was it’s a big practise. If you’re going to do something, do it properly. So it’s six surgery practise with room to expand to eight, nine surgeries. If we going to it’s got legs to keep keep going if we wanted to. And the patient base is that’s what it is I didn’t know about before, but that’s what made me so happy being there is that, you know, just nice people. And I think it’s probably because I’ve been speaking in broken English ta to page to pay so much, so much Arabic if a fruit working with with with the Qataris.

[00:27:39] But I’m doing it in my hope. My whole console is so in between the two. But just it’s just nice to be able to sit and have a conversation with someone for forty five minutes for an hour and get to know them as a patient and to get them to experience what I’ve learnt through working with my brother, which they may not have seen the dentist that were seen by before, and then also to get the appreciation from those patients which I didn’t feel I was getting from some of the patients that I see in the west end of the street is not you don’t you don’t still get that if you go above and beyond for one of these patients, it’s a whole different story. And if you go above and beyond for a, you know, one of our patients on High Street, because it’s almost like they expect it, they expect they’re coming there, they expect that level. Whereas if you do it for someone in Bromley, it’s kind of like, oh, well, I’m going to go and tell everyone about you. I’m going to write you Google reviews. I’m going to I had a patient cry in my console because she was so happy about being the type of pricing.

[00:28:44] I always found it when when you go from a practise that’s cheaper to practise, is more expensive for about two days, you’re like, what the hell? The prices are high here and then you get used to going the other way. Let’s be difficult. All the prices lower.

[00:29:01] That’s that’s the other thing about I think generally the other good thing about Dental parties is because they know that delivering a certain level of quality, the prices aren’t that. You know, we all the prices generally have around about the same sort of price point, pretty much all of them. And because all the services, the way we do the I mean, just look at next as a dentist, he’s not going to be doing things. How fast is it? He’s going to be doing it every possible way it can be done. So he’s going to charge for it. And as we all do so, our price point isn’t that much lower. It’s expected to be a little bit lower. But, you know, I don’t I don’t I don’t see I don’t notice a massive, massive difference from that,

[00:29:43] You know, your other life as a DJ. So those were that whether that stuff

[00:29:55] I was deejaying from, what year of school was I like twelve, thirteen years old. And I was always I was like a garage deejay, like, you know, making mix tapes of. My friends, I’m seeing thinking we’re super cool, and then I went to uni and one of my biggest regrets is just not doing it for you and I was an idiot. Why would you go to uni and not carry on doing what you kind of always enjoy doing? But it kind of got to the point where I was, like, so annoyed that I didn’t do that at uni that I came out of uni and then went really hard into it. During my first few years after after Dental school, I did like a three month programme, which was like just to kind of catch up with what I’d missed over the last five years. I’m very much like that, by the way. I’ll do a course on something. You know, if I don’t know something, I’ll do a programme or something about learning about it. So I did that. It was like 12 hours a week after work that I’ll go, you know, three, two or three nights a week. And then I just started doing my, my, my, my brother in law. He’s got a couple of clubs and restaurants. My wife’s brother. So you tell him this. He says that I probably killed one of his venues. I started to, but I started doing that, started doing a couple of venues with that. And then I got in contact with Millard’s singing dentist lot again for a number of years since when he was like fifth year of uni. And I was a kid. We had family, friends that were similar. They were they knew each other.

[00:31:31] So I got in contact with him. And then he was like, yeah, OK, I’ll start deejaying together. And then we started doing like secret brunch parties and things like that. And, you know, we had a couple of paid gigs here and there. And then he got too big for me. I guess that he he did mention on this podcast that I was the first one to post this video. I did listen to that. He did shout me out there. So he he gives his success to me. Thank you. Thank you. He urged you. But, yeah, that’s that’s what it is. I think it was kind of it was a lot of it in like 12, 14, 15, 16, something like that. But then I realised that it’s kind of hard to side of the brain thing again. You know, it was I couldn’t do it. It was that that dividing those tunes and having one life that was doing the whole creative deejaying, taking and doing the other side, which was the the work and the clinical work I needed to eat. I needed to make some money. So I took the I took the road to dentistry and I this all those things that, you know, there was always things we always around the crowds of people that I could have taken it a little bit further but were never going to be massive. It was always a hobby. You know, it was always mainly me that I still love the music. I still love the scene. A little bit too old for it now, but I’ve had two years in lockdown, so I’m thinking I’m going to get back on it. But it’s it’s you know, it’s been a hobby of mine more than anything else.

[00:33:01] If you’re that first flight to be far away,

[00:33:04] There’s a couple of times a year we got married. There we go. It’s a very we were thinking of moving there last year. We’re not done. It’s one of those things even crossed our mind. But, yeah, it’s that’s and that’s like a second home.

[00:33:20] And the whole Dental beauty thing, how does it actually work? Did you Coleby a practise together? What was the what was the set when when you got involved with that process

[00:33:30] So that they were this practise they had already kind of put an offer in? Yeah. Normally how it works is if you if you know, it depends if you want to be partner. Yeah. Then approach them and then there’s like keys. As soon as you show any interest or anything with that view, you straight away beyond the most organised person I know you cuz you up there. And then I’d find I struggle to find how much time in the day to do things that he does, but he will call you there and then, and then he’ll get to know you get the information from you and then see where you want to have a practise. Fundamentally that’s the first and foremost thing I think he asks is where where do you want where are you? Where do you want the process to be? And then straight away and, you know, as soon as he finds something, he’ll go in together. You can view the place. If it works, the numbers work. And that’s where I needed the help with I don’t know what I’m looking at these sheets and I don’t know what the numbers mean. I don’t know where it relates to is, although I don’t have the buying power in the sense that when you’re going through a group like that, you’re more likely to get the practise that you want because the backing behind you, you know, there’s your easy ways. It’s easier to get the practise if they think you’re more serious. So as me going in, they don’t know who I am, they don’t know what I’ve got. So I thought, you know, if I did this on my own, it’ll probably get me take me two years to get to the point of just getting the practise to start with. Whereas with these guys, everything was just way faster

[00:35:03] And one foot forty nine. Fifty one model.

[00:35:06] Forty nine. Fifty one. Yeah. Yeah. So and I was fine with that. I did push back on initially but then I thought it makes sense if I was doing it, if I was them that’s how I would do it. You wouldn’t want someone to stop you doing things. You know this. Forty nine. Fifty one. But your decision share is still is to equal. They won’t do anything that I would say I wouldn’t want to do nothing to, but I still feel like the buck stops with me. I still feel like this is your practise. How do you want to run it that will give you advice on things and say, you know, so this, this and this reason when you’re looking at the numbers, this doesn’t make sense. But if you want to do it, go ahead. I guess. And that was important to me from the start.

[00:35:50] The forty nine. Fifty one, just for clarity. They own fifty one percent of the practise you own forty nine percent of it. And in terms of what you bought in, you paid for forty nine percent of the shares or. Exactly. Pound for pound. Or was that like a minority discount.

[00:36:06] It was a, I think it was, it was, it was pound for pound I think. Yeah. We went in that way in terms of getting finance so we didn’t put all the money up is it. Was I put up forty nine percent of the deposit, they put up fifty one percent deposit and then we get bank finance for the rest.

[00:36:23] And then as a as just more on the business side of things as well as you working in the practise doing dentistry, do you get remunerated as a standard associate. REI do you take a salary. How does that

[00:36:35] Work. Yes, initially we didn’t and now we do. So now I get paid as an associate, so it works really well. So, you know, you get you get an associate payout, you have a business. You know, as you do these things, you learn that actually you might not want as much of an associate there because it affects you are the sort of things that have an impact to the valuation of your practise. If you were looking to go down that route, you got to do some sort of things that you learn as you go through. And these are things I wouldn’t have known if I’d done it on my own. So yeah, but yeah, it works really well in that sense that I get associate pay, I get dividends if there are any. And yet the stake in the company, of course,

[00:37:20] And at the Top End, you’ve got this whole machine supporting you in terms of who you are and marketing and all of that.

[00:37:27] Exactly. So you kind of do as much of you as you want to do. You know, they give you autonomy in that sense that if you want to do it all, by all means, by all means, do it. You do it your way. But if you you want the most the people that they take on, as I said, a clinical Dental, if they genuinely just want to do the work and they want to, but they want to do it for themselves. So that’s my main focus is at the moment, my own clinical dentistry, but also kind of getting I’ve got younger dentists that work for me and I guess Kahu Instagram thing. I get a little bit of an Instagram following of younger dentists, you know, somebody who’s Instagram superstars. But there’s there’s people that want to know how I’m doing things. And a couple of those guys messaged me say I I’ll be lucky to work there. And you see that I’ll be a nice way of kind of mentoring a couple of people. Associates in the practise, and that’s what I’m doing now, so I’ve got a couple of younger dentists that I’ve set up, know Dropbox folders, we share photos, we share cases. I make sure that I’m always available if they need me to block of time to see a patient with them. If they want to do a case with me, I want to do that because that’s that’s how I spend my time rather than spending it on, you know, all of the other things that you don’t want to really be doing when you’re running a dental practise. I want to spend it on the clinical side and getting others to do the clinical side the way that I think it should be done or the way that I would like for it to be done if it was done on me. So that’s what I’m kind of doing at the moment. The practise is just showing people the ropes in that sense, I guess.

[00:39:04] And so what do you look for in an associate?

[00:39:08] If I was looking for an associate, I don’t I don’t think I have any interest in what your credentials are of your name. Personally, I think those days from my perspective, I think those days have passed. I think we can we can get top quality dentists now that are driven enough to just do things differently and not do things through the academic way of it being done. So first of all, it’s great if you’ve got those things, but if you haven’t got a portfolio to show me, if you haven’t got a picture, if you if you haven’t taken a photo in the right way of doing what I always say, I’m going to plug it here because it makes a difference. Menasche is caused on photography that focussed course, and the way that he styles the photos actually matters massively to me, because if you can take a photo in that way and you care enough to take the photo in that way, even if the work isn’t quite there yet, it shows you’ve got something to get it to that point where it needs to be because you care, you care about it being done in that in that right way. So I want to see that’s what I’ll be looking for fundamentally, is you show me a portfolio of work, show me how you’ve done it. I don’t actually really care if it’s done that that well at that stage because that will come. It depends on the age of the dentist, I guess. But if you show me the hunger for it, you show me the desire for it. Show me that the eye that you can align the photo in the right way, that that sort of stuff I think matters. I don’t know. I’ll make you go my own on that. But it does make a difference.

[00:40:38] I agree with you. I mean, I interviewed a dentist the other day. Well, shall we say, you know, went through the whole application process. I always say, can you send me your three best cases and and just send me some information about what happened? Not not on the clinical side, but on the emotional side. Yeah. So I want to I want to know, can they communicate and B, do they photograph their work well, et et cetera. And and this one one one lady that stood out and she laid them out properly, she’d cropped the images the way you’d expect them to sit side by side, just the basic stuff. Right. And then the emotional story was this lady came to see me and this is what she couldn’t do. This is what she struggled with. This is what she suffered with. And this is the after piece. And for me, totally in agreement with you is that actually I wasn’t really interested on what courses or postgrad education she done. Right. She was able to show off some some really good work, describe it in a way that was very human.

[00:41:43] Yeah, I think absolutely that. And I think I think that’s fundamentally one of the things if you if I’m looking at what there’s where there’s potential for someone is what I’m doing in that sense. But then it comes to I guess it’s always going to be that communication and how they’re going to be speaking to patients. I think if someone’s coming in to say, I want my teeth whitened, the question back from that should be, why do you want your teeth licence? It should always it shouldn’t be OK. This is what we can do is getting to know that patient and putting the time in to understand why they’re in your chair and why they’ve why they’ve come there, what happened in their life for them to want their teeth to be whitens. You know, that’s that I think is important to having that conversation and being able to hold that conversation and take and keeping it very personal to that patient rather than going down the route of this is how it’s done matters quite a lot, I think. And I think that’s that’s I guess that’s kind of like the latter thing and all of that. But it’s it’s I think it’s more than that. It’s just General. General, I guess you can’t call it sales, but it’s just general patient understanding, you know, knowing how to communicate with people. And influencing is what I’m looking for. I think it’s just generally being able to influence people.

[00:43:07] I guess it all comes down to the good old wolf of Wall Street, less of where the guy says, sell me this pen. Right? Yeah. He doesn’t want an answer where you’re talking about, well, you know, this is a ballpoint pen and this is a fountain pen and this shiny silver. And all the rest is more about, you know, why are you in the market for a pen? Why do you need a pen? What benefits would you get out of this? And just learning their motivations in the ways and that is ultimately I know in dentistry, they call it, you know, it’s not sales, but it is sometimes seen as a dirty word.

[00:43:39] And Prav believe that if we’re

[00:43:42] Right on

[00:43:45] The other side of the coin, where you’ve got the dentist jumps into the clinical hair and tries to explain to the patient the full value in a classically I want my teeth whitened old starts showing them syringes and trade and all of that. So even though you’re saying sales, this could just as well be service, you know, understanding patients, understanding motivations and connecting with people as opposed to just treating teeth.

[00:44:17] Yeah, for sure. That is that is 100 percent what it’s about. I think when I’m looking at now even dental practises and what I see is what should be a successful practise. I’m not going to look at other dental practises. I’m going to look at hospitality. I’m going to look at hotels and look at and I think that’s a lot of guys are doing now, Robbie Hughes and all of these that I know which are doing it that way. And but it’s still not enough. I don’t think I think there’s there’s still a huge market, huge gap for other practises to to do the same thing. That’s the best thing

[00:44:48] You could do for your staff in Bromley, is take them for a weekend to an amazing hotel to show an amazing

[00:44:55] Service. I can’t wait to do that because they you know, a lot of them have been to those places. I haven’t seen those sorts of places. It’ll be a pleasure to do that. I think that’s that’s that’s really what would be a lovely thing to do, especially after all of this stuff, because it makes a massive, massive difference, because, you know, I think that’s where the other aspects of you think everyone knows it. But that’s only because you may surround yourself with people that mean, you know, you hang out with people that go to the same places as you or you eat the same restaurants and things like that. So you see that sort of thing all the time. So you think it’s normal, but not enough people have experienced that sort of thing to to be able to deliver it to someone else, you know?

[00:45:38] And, you know, there’s also a kind of person who wants to be of service and a kind of person who thinks it’s demeaning to be you know, this is the kind of person thing, you know, when you said, how do you what do you look for in an associate outside of work? You mentioned some of the clinical stuff. That’s what I would look for is is it the kind of person who takes pride or pleasure, pleasure in being of service to other people?

[00:46:06] Yeah, yeah. It is key, I think, to the point where, you know, as a Dental beauty practises have an element of what a small my practise is, got a very small NHS contract. But if I’m seeing and I haven’t said that I won’t see NHS patients even though I haven’t seen any patient for a long time, because when the NHS patient comes in, I’m giving them that hour appointment, I’m giving forty and I’m doing it in the exact same flow because then that patient sees that level so they may not have experience it. They may again, they may not even be in the restaurant, but you can be the person that delivers it in your dental practise that converted. You know, you don’t have to then go through the the conversation that no one wants to have about this service. And they already see the difference. They already know they’re already kind of they’re like, yeah, OK, I get it. I see I’m presenting in front of them on a big screen with the photos that are dutifully taken, all of this sort of stuff. And, you know, they already they’re already on board. It’s just delivering it, I guess.

[00:47:11] Afterwards you said you can enjoy orthodontics, Invisalign so much. And I see your composite work on online a lot. Is that the kind of work you enjoy the most or is that just good for Instagram, what you enjoy?

[00:47:28] You know, a fallback is that you a lot recently in that I, I would have originally said, you know, it’s quite sexy sounding like you’re saying to people, I’m a cosmetic dentist, but I don’t actually think I am a cosmetic dentist. And that’s not what I do if I’m doing what I do day in, day out is general dentistry. And that is probably because I like doing general dentistry, not because I do like doing the composite stuff. It does the artistic side. That is enjoyable, but I love a root canal. I still do. I still do my own root canal. Generally, I think is what I said is, is that generalist thing? I think that is what is what I really enjoy just covering as many angles as I can, but doing them all well. And, you know, if you can do that, if you can do it all well, then why not write a note saying, I cannot, but I’m aiming to. I think that’s what I would I would love to be able to do. Well, I love to be able to do all right and be that kind general. And that’s probably what I want to be down the line. And that’s why I’ve started implants. And I again, I went full steam with that.

[00:48:38] I Fazila, your your your previous guest, she has been like a best friend to me, the froufrou the last three or four years. However, she was on I listen to her podcasts and I think how she came across on that is is how she is. She’s hot on the sleeve. She will do anything for you, you know, that has helped me massively. So mentoring is is key for any young dentist is find someone that you can have that relationship with physical. It took me under a wing and I went I took a day off work for two years before I bought the practise. I was there every Wednesday. I’m paid as my own choice as to take one day off and just to stand by her. Doing surgery was a great thing to do that that, you know, for any aspects of dentistry that you’re into, if you can find someone that will let you do that, she’d always take that opportunity 100 percent because those are the guys that have been through it. Again, seeing how she speaks to patients. And that it just resonated with me is we have a great understanding with each other. She she trusts me a lot. I think I think she’ll let me do her teeth.

[00:49:47] So, you know, all of this sort of stuff messes. And when you have that relationship with someone and you go with someone that way, whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a mentor or whatever, you know, you’ve got to you’ve got to ride that wave. You’ve got to you’ve got to find someone that you can do that with. But, yeah, dentistry is another thing that I’m trying to add to my bone physical because she’s very cute. She will help you. She will guide you, open all the doors for you. But are you going to make the step? Are you going to make the leap to do the work? But she you know, she’s she’s allowed me to teach the little stuff that I do know on her on our implant course, which is it’s a great course because it’s it’s not easy. There’s always there with infinite knowledge. But it’s good to be also shown the ropes by people that have just done it a couple of years earlier. To you, with her backing behind you, you say she is run by her, but it’s great for us to be able to input the little knowledge we have. Perspective, I think is a good thing.

[00:50:42] Payman, how did you just sort of approach Fazila and say, hey, I want to come and hang out with you every Wednesday or whatever it was, and I’m going to do this for two years or whatever was that? Was that the connexion with your brother or an introduction or.

[00:50:56] I think I said it’s another funny story. You speaks about her with her, about it. She was putting on a lecture. I didn’t want to go. It was a friend of mine that I’d put on the lecture and that she was she was doing I was I’m not that interested in parts of the outcome because, you know, we’re going to marry Shafter. So we just up I did like Charles. Like, oh, this is actually quite interesting. I was and I sat next to her at dinner. And for her, if if she if she sat next to someone, she would always make the effort to talk to you, get to speak to you and be as friendly as she is. So we got talking. Two days later, I signed up to a course and that’s how it all started. But then after that, to get to the point where, you know, she let me see her patients or to let me shadow her next to her patients. We became friends. We I was through her whatever her GDC thing, all this stuff we would be with, I was there for her. I wanted to be there for her. So we were we became good friends, I guess. And as a result of that, we are where we are,

[00:52:05] Right place, right time, serendipity

[00:52:07] And all that sort of thing as well. Again, I say to another thing I say to two other dentists or younger dentists is to expose yourself to as much as you possibly can, because I think she said it in her podcast that you want to listen to where she said that, you know, people do what they can do or what they know about. That’s what the dentist we only provide. We may only provide the care that we can personally deliver. But if you don’t know what is out there and what is possible to do, you’ll be very limited by what you can do, because what you can provide is a drop in the ocean as to what can be provided. So exposing yourself to as much as possible not only brings you contacts, brings you networking, but will also give you more knowledge even if you can’t provide it yourself. You know, there’s some that it can be done. I think that’s a different thing, that some some some sometimes take things like gum grafting and all this sort of perio stuff that I didn’t even know could be done. So I was slapping composite on that. It was like, no, actually, that’s not the right thing to do. You’ve lost gum in that area. Why am I putting composite there? You need gum. So let’s let’s send you to this guy to to do that, because that’s what you actually need say. And that’s, I guess, the the whole general thing. Again, people like Cora do that. People will do that. People like to do that. But it’s you know, it’s exposing yourself to as much as possible. As early as you can see that you’re aware of these things is is very important.

[00:53:42] How did you find. Look, I had this issue when I stopped dentistry, then came back to dentistry, and then when I came back to the industry that we didn’t need to be a dentist, it was I was just doing it because, you know, I was a dentist. Yeah. And I thought, I’m not going to do anything that isn’t to my top of my knowledge, as in as if there was someone better for the job. That other person should be doing that job and as well. But then there’s always someone better than me being a little bleaching, a little bit of it’s a difficult one with a patient.

[00:54:24] It’s a great question. There is always someone that I’d say you’ve kind of just made me think, oh my God, what am I doing? Anything you need to go somewhere, like what is going on? It’s probably I you’re you’re very right. I think definitely do things within your scope that is obviously very important, but not to the point where you limit yourself completely as well. So you get scared of everything. You know, I think that that’s that’s a massive thing as well. I think you’re always going to be a little bit a little bit brave and have the confidence in yourself. And if you don’t have the confidence, then get the confidence by getting the mentors and getting the experience. And, you know, I think my post is if you’re talking about my composite stuff, which I guess is what I guess is still what I’m best, that is pure in the numbers. You know, like I’m quite ashamed to say, I haven’t I haven’t done your course. I haven’t I haven’t done one cause I’ve done one composite course. And I don’t think that’s the right way. But I’ve done numbers. I’ve done a lot of composite work, you know, and that was because I had carries on carries with these patients that I’ve had with the embassy. And I’ve had the time because that’s the other aspect of it, is a lot of these younger dentists don’t have the privilege of the time to spend that day and told how long they can spend on a patient they’re being dictated to in terms of targets. So nothing takes away from having to do the work you’ve got. You’ve got to have done those cases. But I would still I would still send things on, though. I’m composite stuff, probably won’t. But, you know, I’m still not doing that many of my own implants I still get nervous about. I still think that way. More people that can do this better than me restoring them, I’ll do them very well. I do

[00:56:21] A comprehensive research form format, three apps and that sort of thing

[00:56:26] Formats the format. Rehab’s the the Fazila way, which is not which is the better way, which is, you know, the short span bridges, that sort of stuff. And, you know, I know you’re probably going to ask my, my, my clinical mistakes, but, you know, those are the cases that that sort of stuff I’ve noticed happening is those cases where I’ve taken on too much. I’ll take it, you know, and it’s case selection because both of those cases were my mum and my mother in law. They’re both the most by far the most complex cases I’ve ever even attempted. They were done with with Fazila. But a lot of the restorative element I kind of took on myself and Zyda probably laughing at me for doing it. I go and then if you could. But I think it’s one of those things that those cases, the ones that you really learn from this is like, OK, but it’s still doing it. You know, having done that, once I pick the right case because it was on the moment, not going to take me to the easy, at least I hope not. But, you know, those sort of cases, I’ve learnt massive, massive things about just just you know, the best thing about temporaries and stuff like that is that the hand skills from that came from those cases of just being able to to deal with those sorts of things. So you need to do them. You need to do the pick the right people to do them on that aren’t going to go you too many headaches and too many sleepless nights.

[00:58:01] What have been your biggest clinical mistakes?

[00:58:05] Biggest clinical mistakes, I think. So my answer to that question was going to be about it was going to be done, we’ve done we’ve done it all. I’ve put roofs and sinuses cafecito. I’ve just I’ve done you know, I’ve done the whole a patient can’t just decide to swallow on me as I’m like with forty thousand, I’ll be in my Gromit’s and Lingley and then suddenly you just in your seven time loop see the frenulum wrap around this thing. Will what happened that all those nasty things that that have happened

[00:58:40] To this one, something you’ve learnt from a mistake but you know you can help others with.

[00:58:47] Learn from a mistake. I was always is always going to be case champagne, I think is always the key thing for me is always just knowing what your limits are and what you learn from it is getting through it. I think having having done that, having messed that up, what can I take away from this is that we got through it. The patient still OK and assorted. The problem that, you know, you’ve got to if you can’t do it yourself, you’ve got to find someone who can help you do it. And once you get past that situation, then you don’t have to do it right. So that’s what you can take away from it because you’ve done it. You messed it up. You found out how to fix it and you fixed it and now you know how to do so. Carry on. You know that that’s the process. There’s that cycle that we go through every day. I think as young, younger than this, I think that’s that’s what we go for, at least the ones that are doing things. You know, I think the ones that are making any moves or that sort that we have, we’ve made mistakes because we’re brave enough, I guess, to attempt it in the first place. I don’t want a lot of people to go out and start doing things just to try them out now, but do it within your scope. But it’s that that, I think is what I’ve learnt in terms of

[01:00:04] Business Payman any business mistakes.

[01:00:07] You know, not not yet, because that’s because I’m not as experienced yet, I think actually, yes. One thing we have with with a practise like a group like Dental, butI. Is that we bought the practise we took over the next day, the day after that, we had builders in, right, because they had they know the model that they got in. And I know that having looked into this, more people are saying that for the first six months you shouldn’t do anything. You should just learn the business, learn the people that work for you, speak to the people that I’ve come into a practise that was 40 years established, maybe longer. I think we have wait even longer than that. But the people that had been there had been there for 30 odd years. A lot of them. Right. A lot of people have been there for 30 odd years. So you’ve got this new guy come in, come into the place and just destroy it. If these guys were saying that it was like a bereavement, that’s how they described us coming into this practise, because that’s that’s all they know. That’s that’s you know, you’ve come in so that you’ve come into their front room and you’ve just woken up and you’ve just trashed the place and you haven’t even really spoken to them about it. You’ve just come in and done that. So from a business perspective, is management of those people fundamentally is being able to communicate with those guys and be like and reassure them, show that everything’s OK. I don’t think anyone should go that quickly, but that’s how it’s done with NBC because they know how it’s going to work and it does work for them.

[01:01:47] And now we are six months down the line and we’re doing very well as a practise that the staff are getting on board. But we’re still not quite there because you’ve got an inexperienced guy as a manager coming in to deal with people that sometimes almost twice my age. Not quite. But a lot of people have been there for a long, long time, being almost told what to do by someone who they think hasn’t got a clue. So and they might be right. So it’s it’s a case of knowing the people that you’re working with, getting to know those people before you, making any drastic changes before you go in and really understand their concerns, understand what they’re what they’re worried about and address those concerns. I think that’s what I’m a lot more and that’s what I’m supposed to be learning in the role that I’m in as a clinical director. I suppose as Dental future. I mean, I’m more of a management position of managing the clinical aspects of that business. But also I’ve got to be there for all the staff. And that that aspect, I think is is probably what I’ve learnt the most about what I’ve done. And, you know, this actually came from this how much I suppose I’ve listened to this podcast at the time. I think it was Mark Hughes. He said, I’m quitting this podcast, Dental Leaders hearing

[01:03:16] Previous episodes keep coming

[01:03:21] Back in November 2010 when we

[01:03:25] Should citations list at the end of every podcast.

[01:03:30] He said he said that he wished you did an MBA. Right. So I was like, OK, that’s interesting. I’ve always thought about doing an MBA and I’ve just bought a practise. And he said that that would speed things up for him so much. So I was like, OK, the first thing I did, I bought the personal MBA book that I a very good book, recommended highly personal and be a contributor. I mean, it’s really good. But then I also start searching MBAs, and that’s not unless you do a short course, 10 week MBA essentials. And I’m seven weeks into that maths and I’ve just signed on to that

[01:04:07] One, seven weeks of it

[01:04:09] In two weeks. And this is intense.

[01:04:11] This is as a help with the Dental practise.

[01:04:14] So again, last week was the whole leadership management influencing all of that sort of stuff. Then it’s going to go on. Then it goes on to, you know, reading, finance, reading, accountancy, all of these sort of things that are the essential things that you need to. And I don’t I don’t I don’t know. Maybe some people will say you need an MBA is a Dental practise. I don’t think you don’t. But I think it was good to do that and to be in the process of it because I’m just relating everything back to the practise and being at it right at the beginning where I’m just kind of looking at it like, guess this means this, this means this. I can relate this to this. I can go in and start doing this and try this out as made an impact. I think I think that it made me more confident. I think I felt like a bit of an imposter.

[01:04:58] The thing is the thing is, did we as dentists, we think we need to do a course for everything. Yeah. Some of the some of the top business people in the country are corner shop owners and then in the course. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Listen, man, I’m no expert, but business is looking after your customers, looking after your people, looking after your suppliers. That that is the. That’s it. Absolutely. Do you do an MBA? Sure. Do an MBA. Yeah, but but you know, it’s not going to be the answer. Then the answer you’re looking for is Dental. We just think we have to keep doing courses like as if you want to do bone grafting, go do a bone grafting course. You know, when you look look on the high street man, there’s a restaurant. That guy didn’t go on an MBA to run his restaurant.

[01:05:52] It’s all right. So whatever whatever you’re learning, you have to apply it almost immediately.

[01:05:58] But I could see it’s a massive change for you to go from being an associate at your brother’s place, a tiny place like that, to basically the principal at this huge place.

[01:06:10] Yeah, I mean, we need to pay for staff.

[01:06:13] Yeah. What about the practise managers, the practise manager, an incumbent, or is that someone Dental but you’ve imposed.

[01:06:19] Yes, she came, she joined with us basically say yes. Yes. This year we added her. I have to I guess I have I have an existing practise manager that was there before. And so all the

[01:06:32] Staff issues she deals with is all right.

[01:06:35] Yes. I mean, they’ll go through her at times. At times, I think we do it all together. I think it’s going to have a meeting with everyone today, even just to say that I want everything to be done together. This is not just me telling you guys how my vision is for this practise. You’ve been here for this long. You’ve been here for a long time. Me and Sophie, as a person as you have just come in here. I want suggestions from you. I don’t just want problems. I want solutions to those problems. Are you going to give me a if you have a problem with something, I would like to know what your opinion is, how to sort it out, and I’ll give you my opinion on how to sort it out and then we’ll get to some sort of middle ground that we both understand and then we move forward from it. I think that’s how I’m trying to deal with it. And that’s how. Yeah, any staff issues or anything at the moment. I want to try and deal with as we as we go ahead. And these are things that I’m learning, these things that I’ve picked up, that it doesn’t work for me just to tell you this is how it’s going to be done, because that’s not going to make you committed to making any changes. It’s going to make you compliant. It’s going to make you say, OK, but then go away and then actually make a change and do things for the practise, for the benefit of the practise.

[01:07:49] Would you get up to if you got a half a day to yourself? No one I run, yeah,

[01:07:55] That’s my new thing, I guess, like lockdown thing, massive running at the moment. I’ve got a half marathon coming up, training quite intensely for. So that’s if I’m being good. If I’m being not so good, then it’s a different story. It depends on which side, which, you know, what time it is. What what type of day is that we can’t be talking about here or it’s

[01:08:20] Just that

[01:08:25] I think of myself. Yeah. I mean, normally at the moment it’s running in the morning. I live in a lovely place at the moment in lovely area. So, you know, there’s everything’s on my doorstep. I go to games and get a get a coffee and across, you know, I’ve got a nice Italian deli that I might go and get some nice stuff for lunch. Just general things. Now, I guess, you know, I’m enjoying the that side of life a little bit more now, I guess. Slowing things down a bit.

[01:08:55] And a DJ set up already in your house, like in your flat,

[01:08:59] If it’s a depends on what time of day you’re talking about. Again, the decks, the decks on sets up, there’s no enough space. It basically sets up. But people come around at the moment, of course. But you know well, previously, how we would normally do it is that people would have come round and yeah, we’ll get the decks out and some and some drinks out and we’ll have I’m looking forward to getting back to those times, you know, getting getting back to some sort of normality with that

[01:09:28] Prav likes to end it in the same way every time

[01:09:32] Payman seem strange asking Payman.

[01:09:35] And every time you say, is Prekop

[01:09:41] The old

[01:09:44] Legend, it’s your it’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your your loved ones around you. And what three pieces of wisdom would you share with them?

[01:09:58] Yes, I thought about this one. I think all of these things are things that I would hope that I become more of rather than actually these things that I currently am. I think they’re just things that are important. And one thing that I’m noticing, more moment being comfortable, being uncomfortable is a is a good thing. I’m noticing that you came from running that one that says that that’s one of those things that taught me.

[01:10:22] I got the same one from my personal trainer.

[01:10:25] Oh, yeah, definitely, I think it’s yeah, I think yeah, it relates to a lot of things. I’m noticing that a lot more now. I think I spent a lot of time being comfortable again with the job that I was always given. Kind of kept me happy, just plodding along, doing what I was doing every day until I kind of just made that step to be like, OK, I now want to own my own practise. And it was an uncomfortable thing to do. And I’m uncomfortable every day, but I feel better every day as a result of that. I think that that was quite important. And living in practise, not Dental practises in live life in practise of whatever you’re doing. Never think that whatever you’re doing is the end, is always a process, is always learning, learning more every day. So you never perfecting anything. It’s always practise and always getting better at it that way. One one percent at a time. Right. And the other one that I put was form follows function. That’s one that I think is one that I would like to do more than I currently do. I do things now when I feel like it’s perfect to do them. Rather than starting and seeing how things go, like I guess that’s the whole course thing, right, because it’s like if I’m going to run a business, I need to do an MBA and be perfect at running a business. But it’s very much make a start and see where it takes you. I think that’s what I’m trying to do more of. It’s not natural to me to do that, but I very much think that that’s where people become successful in anything that they do. Mm hmm. And even even to form friendships to whatever, you know, raising a family could have just just do it. Have that baby. Don’t delay. That’s OK.

[01:12:29] And how would you like to be remembered? What would you like to leave behind as your legacy? So Payman was Dental to complete the sentence.

[01:12:41] I think there’s nothing better than being inspirational in some way. I think it’s. Whatever whatever you whatever we’re doing with it is nothing. There’s no bigger compliment. Then having inspired someone else to either do the same thing or to make a move in something. So I think that’s what I would like to achieve, I think I’m not there yet. I think it’s a long way to go to get anywhere near the. But having been inspired by so many throughout my life from, you know, my brothers, from mentors, from whoever, to be able to then be someone that inspires others, I think is will be beautiful.

[01:13:27] Lovely. And finally, she had 30 days left and you had all all your faculties intact, your health, and there were no budgetary constraints or would you be doing in that 30 days?

[01:13:43] I think I would do yeah, I think I think I’ll keep it simple. I’m not I’m not one that feels like I need to go and travel the world and see all of these extra things. I never really been and probably not a good thing, actually. But what I like to do if I’m going away somewhere, I like to be on a beach in a nice restaurant. Beach Club vibe sort of thing, kind of sitting there with my body. Rosie, I think I’m just like a basic bitch. But I think just being in the environment with my friends in the sun, having a good time listening to good music, taking over the decks. Yeah, 100 percent. I think that is that is very much my happy place to be.

[01:14:34] 30 days in the beach with it. Yeah.

[01:14:37] I’m just trying to not save us.

[01:14:41] Twenty four to six days in Formentera

[01:14:45] To come up with this. Yeah, I think it’s just I mean, the main point of that, though, is not the environment. Whatever it is, the people that I’ve had those memories with and spent time with, you know, I have a wife that had been with for 16 years. We’ve grown up together from me to spend that time, continue to spend that time with her would be a blessing and to be around the people that we have, the friends that we share. And all of that is in the family that we have to be so lucky to have would be, would be, would be ideal.

[01:15:27] As lovely man. Beautiful. It’s been a real pleasure having you, buddy. It’s been a long time coming.

[01:15:34] Thank you.

[01:15:38] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with Emerging Leaders Street. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:15:54] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it

[01:16:09] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:16:19] And don’t forget our six star rating.

We’re pleased to welcome onto this week’s show a multi-practice owner, entrepreneur and family woman Zayba Sheikh.

Zayba’s eye for marketing and business has seen her rise to the top with practices in Fleet Street, Nottinghill and Manchester.

Hear Zayba cover social media presence, opening her first practice and supporting future dental stars. 



“I’m obsessed with what I do, whether it’s healthy or not healthy, it’s an obsession. And sometimes the best people that are the most successful are the ones that are really weirdly obsessed with what they do.” – Zayba Sheikh


In This Episode


01.40 – Growing up in London

04:25 – The flexibility of dentistry

07.29 – Children and holistic practice

11.18 – Opening the first clinic

15:22 – Being a good motivator

22:52 – Life coaching

25:37 – A football analogy

28:20 – Hiring right

30:22 – Social media presence

32:49 – Brand recognition

38:55 – Supporting young dentists

43:56 – Being in the present

48:26 – A day in the life

54:58 – Mother figures

58:22 – Travelling

01:00:00 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Zayba Sheikh


Zayba qualified from the University of Birmingham in Dentistry and is a member of the Faculty of Dental Surgery.

Zayba plays a vital role in the development of the Healthcare Division of Sheikh Holdings as well as being a board member and principal investor.

Zayba has always put others first and is a Trustee of Cosaraf Charitable Foundation. She also created her own dental charity with Smita Mehra called the Neem Treet Foundation.

[00:00:00] Some of them don’t know what their talent is. Some of them say to me, I’m a dentist. I’m like, but what’s your talent? What’s your talent in dentistry? Do you have an artistic class in the composites, in the cosmetic? What’s your talent? You’ve really got to know yourself. So that’s one thing I look for. Do they know themselves where their talent is? Do they understand that? And how much do they have passion and respect for that? How much are they willing to thrive on that? Like, is it a passion? And I always say, are you obsessed with it? Because, like, I’m obsessed with what I do, whether it’s healthy or not healthy, it’s an obsession. And sometimes the best people that are the most successful are the ones that are really weirdly obsessed with what they do. And I want to know, are they obsessed with what what is what makes them tick about what they do?

[00:00:51] This is Dental Leaders podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders and dentists. Treat your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

[00:01:06] Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome Zabor Shaikh onto the podcast. Sabre’s the founder of Dental, which burst on the scene a couple of years ago. You obviously have a few other things going on, but even more impressive. But you’re fresh from giving birth to a child. Yeah, it’s been difficult to even the age because I couldn’t believe that you even could make time for us to come. It’s a pleasure to have you. Thanks a lot for

[00:01:38] Thank you for having me.

[00:01:40] This book was about trying to get to the to the crux of the person behind the sort of the persona of folks a little bit about your early life childhood. Why did you choose Dental Street, that sort of stuff?

[00:01:53] Ok, so I was born in northwest London. I grew up in a joint family set up. So two brothers married, two sisters. So we all lived in one household and my grandma lived with us as well. And my uncle had six kids and my dad has five. So I’m the eldest of all 11 kids. So it was a very busy household. And it was it was nice because I’ve always had two sets of parents. I’ve had two father figures, too, mother figures. So I’ve I’ve been very blessed in the family set up. We had strong values instilled from a young age. My grandmother’s story, you know, she came from Kenya. Settle down here. She was widowed at twenty eight with four young kids. So I saw my dad and my uncle really graft. They started off in a laundromat in Hounslow. They live above the laundromat and it was a real graft. My dad went to uni, but my uncle didn’t. And it’s how he grew as a person and my dad that really shaped us as kids. That’s what I feel, especially for me being the eldest. I saw a lot in the in the early graft of their careers and their whole life and how it shaped. So I feel like that’s where it really starts for me in terms of the journey of who I am and the characteristics that I have, I, I do believe it stemmed from my grandparents were extremely close to our grandparents, both of my mom and my dad’s side.

[00:03:28] And I think that’s where my work ethic really grew. And then going into dentistry, I always knew I wanted to go into healthcare. My dad’s business was in care homes, but I always enjoyed the sciences. It was never for my parents. It was never a pressure on what to do or have to go into specific industry. It was always just, you know, do what you enjoy and just that support go into something you enjoy, be a profession or, you know, just have something you have passion in. So I really explored the sciences, more medicine, dentistry, pharmacy. They were kind of the things I explored. But I went into dentistry because I saw the flexibility in it. I saw the interaction with the people more than in the medicine. I felt that I could interact with people close to clinical and non-clinical. And also the business side was what really was my main goal. I always knew I wanted to go into business. I from a young age, I was probably really exposed to property business and how to run and grow brands. And I used to do that with my dad in my own case to see a lot of it. And I was looking at piano as I was looking at CapEx sheets. I just understood that business first hand. I didn’t you go to business school or anything like that? I learnt to quite young, so I knew that I wasn’t going to be clinical.

[00:04:55] I knew that I was never arty type of person. And that’s one thing in dentistry. I have complete respect for my clinicians because they’re actually artists, they really all are. They have such an artistic flair and mindset and creativity to them that I knew I just didn’t have and I knew that from the start. But I went into it knowing that I could create something different because everyone else that’s going into this wants to do it for the dentistry, whereas I’m doing it for the business. And I felt that that was my USP. So I always knew the brand that I could grow would be already unique to all the other Dental brands, because majority 80, 90 percent of dental practises or brands are built around a 100 clinician. And that would be my complete USP because this brand is not built around the primary principle being what known handed. So I got excited by that. I already knew that in my heart that’s what I was going to do. And then I went to Birmingham, studied that, and then I did my VTE in London. I worked in mixed practises for a couple of years. And then that’s when I got my first practise in Fleet Street. And now I’ve got three clinics, so Fleet Street, Notting Hill and Manchester. So that’s our latest clinic that just opened a year ago now.

[00:06:12] So your first prognosis, how long after qualifying sober?

[00:06:16] Four years. Four, five years. Yeah, so I qualified twenty fleet free opened 2015 and I was five months pregnant, so I had to joke with me. Every time I open the clinic there’s a baby somewhere. But you know, I always say to them, one of my biggest lessons from my grandparents and my dad is they had so many kids and people used to say the same thing. And my dad used to say that for every child that’s come into the world, there’s a moment that that child came in, was like the best opportunity or business opportunity that came at that time was like the biggest blessings came within that moment. And I really believe that because I see that coming down, because I see that every time I had a child or even as a child, as some of my people that’s walked in the clinic, Lindsey, when she had a baby, I’ve seen that those children were brought so much. We’ve had peaks in the business when those kids came. Things that happened that I never thought would happen are happening in those times. So I truly believe the blessings of family life and doing things holistically in your life, not just having work and then personal life. It’s about the balance of both, which is always the thing that everyone debates. How how can you have us stable?

[00:07:29] This business of your dad started with that one laundrette turned into a gigantic business we talk about in dentistry. Do we want our kids to be dentists and all of that? Yeah, well, they’re not. Did you not think, well, why don’t I just take over that business rather than doing your own brand?

[00:07:46] Yeah, I mean, the thing with my dad was he never pushed us to do what he was doing. I think he wanted us to learn the principles of what he was doing. If I wanted to do that and wanted to go into the home business and things like that, I think he would have been really happy and he would have been like, yes, one of the kids, it’s good to be here.

[00:08:05] We actively decided you didn’t want to go into the business.

[00:08:10] It wasn’t that I didn’t want to do it. I did do a lot of work within it early on. Might not like actual work, but I used to go into the cabins a lot. I used to see what they were doing. You know, my dad would always take us when we would have to be there for certain reasons. But I didn’t really I think I didn’t always think how I could link them to straight into the home because of special care dentistry. And I saw that was a big gap within that industry. So I thought that it could be something that I merge. But I just had an appeal with dentistry on a different level. I liked the clinical aspect as well, that clinical science behind the dentistry in the care home business. I feel like that would have been if I went into more of a medical way, then I could have. But then as the dentistry evolved, I did it really go in special care industry. I really just enjoyed the business so much that that’s really what I wanted to do.

[00:09:02] And so when you go through, you have to learn the basics of dentistry and what was the vision always in your mind, say the First Fleet Street clinic or whatever that was going to be on your radar, working towards that goal of owning your first practise? What was your vision at that point?

[00:09:20] Yeah, one hundred percent. I always wanted to I always had the thing like this is temporary. Like I didn’t enjoy clinical at all. And my trainer, he was so amazing, but he was so patient with me and he was just like it was it’s not that great. It was it was fine because I knew that wasn’t what I wanted to do. I knew I wasn’t that wasn’t my thing. But I was there and I was putting in the graft and I was learning everything that I needed to learn, because to be honest, if I didn’t have that experience as well, I wouldn’t understand a lot of what happens in the Dental practise as well. So I always had the vision of the practise, but I was always looking for the opportunity and the opportunity didn’t just come straight away. That was a lot of things that happened that I tried to acquire a practise. Then I tried to set up another practise. Then I tried another thing and all of things fell through. It wasn’t like I just got Fleet Street and then that’s it. It was like happy ending. It’s not. It took time. There was a lot of, like, bad moves on my part, trying to acquire something that didn’t work. And then looking back on it, they were like big moments in my life when I was like, oh my God, I’ve lost like, I’m never going to do this. I was like, rock bottom. Here we go again. Carry on working clinical until you can do it. So it was a craft. It was hard to get that right, a clinic and the right setting that I needed. It wasn’t easy at that time to be looking at practises, you know,

[00:10:43] Was it did you set up the clinic in Fleet Street or did you buy it?

[00:10:47] Yeah, they’re all squat practises and practises that also said.

[00:10:52] So when you opened your practise back then, four years post qualification, how did you get those patients through the door? Obviously, your marketing strategy now is is something the I think with Dental industry, a completely inaugural’s and everything you do from the content creation to everything is just spectacular. And what was what was your strategy back then in terms of getting patients through the door?

[00:11:18] It was basic strategy. It was we knew what we needed to do, but that was nothing different. There was nothing that no one else was doing. And it was hard. We didn’t have patients waiting at the door. We didn’t have our phones ringing at times when my team would say to me, the phone rang once today and we were losing money. We were losing a lot of money every month. And it wasn’t easy, especially when I was five months pregnant and I just had my first baby as well. First baby is very different to the baby, number two and three. So, you know, that was hard work. And there were times when I would say to my husband, I don’t know if this is ever going to do what we wanted to do. And he used to say to me that the day that this clinic makes profit will be the best I have. You know, it was so hard and I don’t think that there was anything that we did to tip it. It was just time. And there were certain things that were key moments within the journey that started to tip that. And that’s what when I saw those things come into play from the right dentist to the right, but just the right branding, the right dentist and then the right people that worked in the clinic, you know, one of the key members of staff coming in, she changed the whole journey. So the journey changed for people as well. And then that everything just came together. And slowly, slowly, you know, when that clinic first started to make profit, you know, it took it took a long time. It wasn’t easy to be.

[00:12:54] When you first opened the clinic, what was what was the set of? Were you hands on then clinical doing loads of what was it

[00:13:01] That actually I was I wasn’t doing loads of hours. I was just there to help Buffer. And that’s a when we didn’t have the right dentists or, you know, the dentist we wanted in that clinic. So I was that buffer when Lindsey came on board as well. She was my right hand woman in terms of like they would just do it, just get the patients in and you can do it and give me confidence to do clinical. But I knew in my heart that’s not where I was going to be and that was temporary. But yeah, I did I did have to do a bit of clinical in the beginning.

[00:13:31] But and then moving on from there, from the point you opened the doors to the moment you spun a profit for the first time. What we talk in in terms of time, scale,

[00:13:41] I think it was roughly around. A year, a year, over a year, I’d say, just before we rebranded. That’s what I think the reasoning of the rebrand was around, that I felt that the rebrand would rocket up. It would just I just knew what needed to be done at that time, in that moment. And that’s why we did the rebranding in that sense. So I could have that risk to take on myself to say this is what I want to do. And it was a risk. I was doing it on my own and rebranding to major clinics, but I just knew I had the right people around me as well. I had a fantastic marketing team and advisors who now have grown with me and it’s just grown massively. So I think that that tying in with the rebrand just changed everything quickly.

[00:14:35] But when I think of Dental, I think of, you know, talent, you see, you seem to be able to attract the kind of the big names, if you like, and in cosmetic dentistry to come and work there. Having said that, I mean, I’m sure some of them you’ve developed into big names while they’re working. But the other thing is I’ve had contact with some of you people with your courses and all of that. There’s a general feeling from them that you are such a great motivator. And so often when you talk to staff and all of them without without exception, I know a lot of young people from Mattie Parsons, who teaches on our course to some of you support. So all of them without without exception or people saying that she’s brilliant, she’s going she’s motivated. Is that something that you’ve sort of looked into or is that just the natural way you all you’ve learnt from your parents? What is it?

[00:15:36] I think it started off definitely something from my uncle, my dad. I saw how they worked well. And what were their biggest assets to them as Leaders in their businesses? I saw what worked really well. And after 20, 30 years, those people, the way they used to, they still speak about my parents and my uncle and my grandparents, the way they speak so highly of them and they’re connected to them. I learnt from a young age how that was so important and valued the time and effort that my dad and my uncle give is unbelievable. And they they scaled up massively right now, but they still are able to touch a lot of people within their companies. So I learnt that from a young age and I think that was naturally in me. I just naturally have that kind of personality. That’s what I thrive off, really. That’s what I that’s what I see is my main job role. But then I did invest into it further. I do have a massive interest on the psychology side of things and behaviours. And I trained for two years in personal coaching like life coaching and mindfulness, and that I trained to become a coach for the purpose of a business business properties with my within my own clinic. And then I started to do coaching within the team on team levels. But then I realised when I was doing it, it was opening cans of worms within my teams with each other in terms of things that they didn’t want to say in a team environment.

[00:17:08] So now I do a lot one to one. A lot of them probably don’t know. I do it as not having like a coaching session or a session. It’s my kind of tools and my like, kind of just my toolkit on how to deal with people and how to speak to them. How to listen to them in all is just one to one mainly. And that’s done with everyone. I don’t just sit with them and sit with everyone every week. It’s done throughout the week through phone calls, even interactions. And I just passing by. There’s tools that I use that naturally is just to help me to really engage with different types of people, from patients to my nurses to my teachers to my directors, to high level business ambassadors, things like that. And it’s about being able to interact with everyone and engage with everyone. And that you have to learn. I think you have to really invest in understanding that that’s not something that you can just I didn’t have like that deeper understanding, but there’s there is things to look into. And I think just being conscious of it is the first step. But just to be conscious of it, sometimes we’re just not conscious how we walk past someone or how we just even look at someone. Even your physical language says everything, and especially as your boss, like they say, you know, that physical language is everything to your staff before you even open your mouth because they have an assumption about you straightaway. So I think that

[00:18:38] Speaks to some specific sabr, some examples, specific examples. Maybe I’ll know something you or your dad did with. With someone and then something’s specific examples of stuff that you can help someone can learn from.

[00:18:51] I think it’s one of the most important things I would say that I think I still don’t do well enough as well. Like Red’s always knows this and he’s always, like, pinching me, as I remember. But is the listening and the way to listen, because you can listen to someone and you can hear them out, but you’ve already made your judgements about what you feel. And it’s the open minded listening. It’s listening with an open mind, whereas a lot of people within the workplace that have already made up their mind and they’re right and you’re wrong and that’s it. And they have all the reasons why they’re right and they probably might be right. That’s not that we’re saying they’re wrong, but the way you listen to the other person and make them feel about their opinion, that is a massive I’d say, plus, because the way you can listen to them is shows that how you can explain something to them, because if you want to explain your point of view, you can explain it away. They can have understanding, whereas explaining your point of view in a way that you’re attacking them, you’re never going to get them to understand. They’re never going to change their mind. Whereas I feel like if I can really listen to what that person is saying and empathise, I put myself in their shoes and their rights. This was a big deal in their eyes. This did happen. And a lot of people just say, well, she’s lying or she’s doing this and I’m not. I never look at people in a negative light. I’ll always give them the benefit of the doubt, saying actually for her that was a big deal for him. That was that is on. And then I don’t put my opinion on that. I will listen to that and then give some sort of advice. But if I need them to understand what I’m saying, they do listen. Then they turn around and listen to me because I’ve given them their opinion, respect and I think respect to the massive thing.

[00:20:34] Lovely thing. It’s a lovely idea. And obviously, you’ve got to feel that way for it to be real. But give me the tactic. What’s the tactic for you? Do you repeat back to them what they say or something like that?

[00:20:47] Yeah, I think what I would do is engage in what they’re saying more than I’m saying. I think a lot of people talk and they only talk about what their point is. But whereas I would repeat that point. So if someone says this is how something made me feel and this is the reasoning, I’d be like, you know what, I understand your reasoning because I’m from your point of view, it looks like this. I’m from you in your shoes. It’s this, this, this. So I can understand. You’re right. Then I always agree that they’re right, because that’s an opinion you can’t say to someone that’s wrong, whereas and then I’ll say, well, can you understand from either my perspective or the other person’s perspective that this this this might have been their ideas and they don’t actually see what your ideas are. And from that moment on, that person’s like, yeah, I can see that they now are in agreement with you. They’re not attacking each other. They’re in agreement. And they’re like, OK, we can agree that we’re all seeing things in different lens. But then how do we come together, guys? How do we come together and think, is there a solution or is there something we’re missing? Are we just looking too much inside what we think or is that we need to think about the greater picture? I feel like in this setting, everything in the Dental practise is so intricate and so micro environment that the bigger picture is always missed.

[00:22:02] That’s one of my biggest things. When I come in, I’m always talking bigger picture because I’m not in the micro environment. I’m not in there with them. So I respect their environment, I respect what they saying. But then they also respect that, oh my God, she’s opened our eyes like she’s looking at it from a completely different way. And I think that excites them because they want to know what I think they want to know. A lot of them will call me straight away or text me and say, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? Because they respect that I’m coming from a different lens to them and I’m not trying to tell them that that is wrong.

[00:22:34] Baby emissions, you’ve undergone quite a bit of coaching yourself and learning. And you listen, obviously, you mentioned that you use various tools. We have to talk about specific courses that you weren’t always a part of the Dental County School or what was it?

[00:22:52] To be honest, it was something that my mom and my auntie were doing. They were doing a life coaching. It’s called the inside out. I think it’s from from America coaches in America. And it’s a personal development. It wasn’t actually something that they were doing for business perspective. They were doing it for personal development. And then I decided to do it to figure out my work life balance. I was struggling with the mom girl with my ambitions. And, you know, I was struggling with how do I juggle? Everything can be the best at everything. So I did that for myself. And it really helped me in the first year, helped me change my plans in terms of looking at things from a positive approach and realising that a lot was coming from my thoughts and not the reality of what was happening. And I was missing a lot of being in the present with my kids and being in the present with my businesses and being in the present of enjoying the journey. As well, so that changed my perspective and I saw that me changing change the business and changed my staff without me even doing anything. It was just because I changed my actions and my intentions. I didn’t enforce on anyone. I just changed myself. And I feel like that’s what makes you a good leader, is because they see what you’re doing. It’s not telling them what to do. They see Microsoft. They see what I do. I don’t do they see how much effort I put into it and my passion that I think the passion really gets them. And then they generally, most of them, all of them that work and they all have passion. They all have that. So I look for that. I look for that when I interview. I really look for the passion within themselves and the career, because then my job is easy, because if they’ve got passion, I just motivate a mentor and coach and the rest they do.

[00:24:36] So you’ve attracted these wicked dentists. Let’s say if I was a young associate looking to work through. Yeah, OK. You said you want someone passionate. Yeah, well, I mean, literally, if that’s if that’s what I want to do, I want to welcome you advise me to do as a young associate who wants to be part of that team. Do I have to do courses. What have to do.

[00:25:05] So if you step back, what I’m trying to create with the dentist is what my husband’s taught me. And in building a football team, that’s basically how his analogy of what I’m doing is. And if you just see that and I’ve always looked into the best sports coaches and how sports coaches really work, because that’s really inspired me in terms of their journeys and how they attract talent. And it’s not about them, it’s how they combine the talent together. And that’s really what my ambition is with. Drew is combining the talent. So my first thing when I look for is what’s that talent? Is that talent what we’re looking for? And do they have the talent? Is it that a lot of dentists, they are general restorative Dental. That’s absolutely fine. And that talent is in that. And we need those. We need different. But what is the talent of some of them don’t know what their talent is. Some of them say to me, I’m a dentist. I’m like, but what’s your talent? What’s your talent in dentistry? Do you have an artistic class in the composite? It’s in the cosmetics. What’s your talent? You’ve really got to know yourself. So that’s one thing I look for. Do they know themselves where their talent is? Do they understand that? And how much do they have passion and respect for that? How much are they willing to thrive on that? Like, is it a passion? And I always say, are you obsessed with it? Because, like, I’m obsessed with what I do, whether it’s healthy or not healthy, it’s an obsession. And sometimes the best people that are the most successful are the ones that are really weirdly obsessed with do. And I want to know, are they obsessed with what what is it? What makes them tick about what they do? Do they enjoy that? And then I would look at why do they want to go with it? What’s their intention for being what? Where do you want to go with it? Is it that they’re going to value add and bring something that someone else doesn’t have? That’s what I’m looking for.

[00:27:00] If you’re coming into RWD, just to replicate another another one of the dentists, that’s not a value add value add is someone that say to me, Zabor, this is what you are actually missing. This is what I can bring to the table. I might do things this way. And it’s there’s loads of ways to do that in dentistry. A lot of dentists to me, but I’m a cosmetic dentist. I’m like, yeah, those are some of my dentist are into composite bonding, somewhat into different things. Small Macon’s in a different way. Some people are into the injectable mould, composite techniques, the different techniques. Tell me what what is it that you’re into? So I’m looking for that flat and it’s quite deep. And I can tell straight away if it’s Dental, that has no idea because I haven’t even thought of those things. That’s not really questions they get Austin normal interviews. So they go back and I’ve had dentists go back, think I have more experience and come back to me and say, actually, we know now who we are and then I like you already to because I want them to value-add. It’s not I always say we was in the training ground. It’s more ground when you’re saying, I’m looking for my Stryker’s, I’m looking for those elite clinicians, and that’s what I want it to be about,

[00:28:09] Say you interviewing all team members and you’ve got a relationship with all team members at every level, right? Well, I do well.

[00:28:20] And Koshy do so at the moment. I have like managers and stuff that kind of triage and filter through. And when I recruit, then I will try and meet everyone before that final decision of hiring someone or me or Lindsay or I’ll try and zoom them. So in the last couple of months when I’ve been off maternity, there’s a few new people that I hadn’t met. And so that. My first thing that I need to go and do is meet meet them, because I’ve heard so much about them and that that is really close to me. That’s really important to me to meet them and and get to know them.

[00:28:55] And then you spoke about people bringing the value to the business. I mean, one of the things that’s so, so clear about many of the clinicians, that is the Instagram presence, right? Yeah. They all they all share in common. Is that something that you can look at and forth and is checking out their social profile a big part of the recruitment process?

[00:29:19] So it is and it isn’t. So we do check it so we know where they might be like sitting in terms of their work shows a lot of that portfolio as well. So if they have a strong Instagram presence, it does show their portfolio of work, but it’s not a criteria. I would say that they have to have a strong, strong following or they have to be strong. And that’s not because I have some dentists that work for me that don’t they didn’t have that in the beginning and they don’t want to grow that or something. But it’s naturally evolved that way. I would say I would say that a lot of the patients and the demographic of people we’re attracting is within that kind of demographic of Instagram. So we do say to the dentist that it does help because we put them on our Instagram as well. So it helps

[00:30:07] And help them grow their Instagram as well. It looks like the content you’re creating for the brand with room is some of the deal as well. You’ll help them grow their social presence if they want to.

[00:30:22] Yeah, I mean, we want to grow our social presence. So our marketing is very strong and they are our brand as well. So our marketing is based around them. Video creations for the dentist, video questions for the staff. But they then utilise that content on their platforms is absolutely fine because we want to have a synergy. We don’t have we don’t want to say that you can’t grow yours and grow ours. One of my closest Dental has to mean she’s grown with me. Slaney she is a strong Instagram Dental. But when we both when she started out, we were both growing. She was growing in her Instagram platform and we were growing in our brand. And we’ve always said to her we’re not against each other and we have a synergy. And that was so different for her because she said, Majoras, the principles are the same to me. You can’t do this and you can’t post this about us and you can’t post that. And you have to write our logo on that and our logo on that. And I was never like that. I just said to her, will grow you and you’ll do well. And she ended up being full time with us. And she’s trying hard right now.

[00:31:23] And Kathleen is lecturing for me tomorrow. See, it’s a small makeover for four amazing marketing. Amazing. But you know what impresses me, Zabor, is that you mentioned this. There’s a degree of vulnerability in having your associates having such a big presence because they could take they could take their patients away with them. But you don’t see using that as an opportunity.

[00:31:51] Yeah, I Dental. Yeah. And I always say to business, well, we don’t ever see it that way. We always say that we just have confidence. And also there is a confidence in what we do and a confidence in our brand that we’ve seen that the dentist, once they’re in and they experience and touch and feel through and experience the journey with me. I mean, a lot of them, I just feel like the journey is a long term journey that they’re and they’re both in and they feel that it’s not fake and they know that. And the ones that have left or I’m not saying everyone stays with us, it’s all been positive. There’s a reason they want to grow in a different direction. And we’ve been there and I haven’t said or felt your patients are going with your patients. I’ve never felt that. I always feel that that’s enough for everyone. And I don’t need to no one needs to step on each other’s toes. I just have never needed to to feel that.

[00:32:49] I do think that what I see about the brand is that the brand is beyond recognition. A bit like what you said earlier, you didn’t want to build a brand around. A Western defence is right. And I definitely see the the although although the dance is truly inclusive in the market signable, know that the brand is bigger than the clinician, so to speak. And it’s the brand that is front and centre. Yeah, definitely what I see when I see the visuals, the creative and things like that.

[00:33:19] And that’s the intention. I mean, you see big brands out there like, you know, Emirates, business class and Chanel and all these amazing brands. And there’s great people that work behind those brands as well as celebrities that we can endorse those brands. But those brands stand strong for what they are. And that quality and that I feel is unique and not done in the Dental industry. I feel like a lot of the Dental. Principals have had to be handed and their passion is that as well. So there’s a passion of having a lifestyle practise versus a brand, and that’s what I wanted to create. I wanted to create a brand that was scalable and able to withstand that 20, 30 years and say that’s a scalable brand and I still have a strong business portfolio behind it because it’s every sentence has always asked me or we’ve always known associate that says don’t make profit. And I’m like, that’s rubbish because it’s about a brand. It’s not about associate led. Perhaps it’s not. But that’s just the wrong terminology. It’s because because dentistry has never been business let because dentists haven’t been trained as businessmen, just that we’re not trained in business. So unless you are and you then invest in that, I just don’t know how someone can work six days a week clinical and do both. I just think that’s just impossible.

[00:34:40] So what’s the vision moving forward in terms of growing the brand, multiple clinics, 20, 30, 40, some overseas expanding in the U.K., have you got the big audacious goals or anything like that in terms of the big picture vision?

[00:34:59] I mean, to be honest, the vision I had for it evolves every year in a different way because of the business opportunities that come. So I never kind of have a rigid saying this is what I am going to do because some opportunities have come my way. And I never thought I would be doing the Manchester was one one of those. I never thought I would be going into Manchester. The furthest I’ve been is up north is them. So I hadn’t explored much. I didn’t think how can I manage a clinic in Manchester and things like that. But the opportunity with Andy and just knowing Andy and getting to know more and more and the opportunity that came for both of us, you know, it was in the right time and it happened because it was meant to. And I just think that was the best thing that ever happened to me is is meeting Andy and going down that way. So I would say the bigger picture, it’s a lot of clinics. It’s not saying I want to be a Mini Cooper at all. That’s not my intention.

[00:35:55] I want to be a strong brand. And if that means a strong hold of, you know, 10 clinics internationally, nationally, for me, that quality of the clinics is what I want to strive to do, quality and brand and clinical dentistry and to achieve that and have a strong business portfolio, a serious business portfolio behind me, because I’ve seen people come with Dental business plans. I’ve seen people come with other industry plans, you know, in the restaurant industry and retail industry. And I know what a strong business looks like. And I want my practises and my view to have that bond presence. And it won’t just be from the clinics. I do want to broaden it and go through into the consumer brand and look at the academy is launched. So there’s different divisions of Varu that I will probably want to expand more into. A lot is I really enjoy philanthropy and doing things through charity, but want to expand the brand into that way as well. So there’s a lot of things I would love to do, but let’s see how it evolves naturally.

[00:36:55] So there’s about the academies, but we have a couple of guys on yesterday from the small Dental Academy about how that evolved. And then the academy evolved actually around mentoring and training their own Dental from within. Yeah. And opening up to the to the industry. What does your academy do? What’s the plan for it?

[00:37:14] I think the Academy naturally started off because conversations with Andy, I think he was actually doing his own courses. And what we learnt very quickly is the dentist that we do are extremely talented and they love to teach their talent. They love to share it. They want to pass that on. They want to they also have a good time doing that. You know, it’s a break from the clinical industry. And I felt that it would be it’s good to teach and give back. And I feel like we need to be able to have young people reaching out to us and saying, can we shot at your dentist? Can you teach us this? Can you tell us what equipment you’re using and things like that? So I felt like just the demand and also the having the talent of dentists that love to teach as well. It just was a no brainer to say how can we make it work and a good structure. And he’s done teaching before and sometimes the structures worked and hasn’t worked. So he’s had the trial and error and the know how of how to do things. And alongside Kerry, who you know, well, you know, she’s got a lot of knowledge and dentistry and teaching and and how to, you know, where that industry’s going. And so I think that combination is where we went with the teaching. We want it to be different. And the USPI for our academy is not just around doing courses. It will be around, you know, having a database and creating a platform, especially now with covered everything, being more online. We want to have a strong kind of digital aspect that will be part of the academy. And I think that’s what that will be a bit different to. What what we’ve seen that before

[00:38:55] Is a massive asset to you. You know, obviously a lot of interaction with a. Yeah, you know, you talk about a brand so much. What’s your favourite brand?

[00:39:06] What are we talking like, shoes, bags, what we saying?

[00:39:10] I mean, it doesn’t the other than the one you you shop the most from the one you admire the most.

[00:39:18] I would say journey wise, I think the journey of the Emirates brand is really interesting, I think and Virgin that stories and I always look at hospitality industries massively. So their journey and what they’ve done in evolution of business class, first class and all of that, that’s really interested me. So I do admire that. And I do find the other industry is it is a lot it’s really weird, like my husband laugh when he hears this, but the football industry and how I’ve got into, like, learning about how the marketing of that is done and how the coaches work, I mean, that industry in itself is really also interested me, which I didn’t expect to

[00:40:01] Have a favourite brand.

[00:40:04] Yeah. Yeah, of course it through buddy.

[00:40:08] You know, we have some great people working with us that work with Apple and Facebook. And and that was really interesting to hear what Apple are doing as a brand and what they’re going to do. And being at the forefront, I think of tech. One thing that is very different from IFIL is being at the forefront with digital technology in-house and marketing. So we’ve invested heavily in how to make sure that our structures are more digitalised and seamless, as well as, from a marketing perspective, bringing in some of the industry’s best people around me. So I’m working with great content creators as well as, you know, digital strategy. I’ve had someone working for me who did the rebrand with me, who has literally just gone into the depths of it with me in terms of how we can improve from a digital aspect strategically and then bringing on people like you’re saying from great brands like Apple, who’s looked into our analytics and said this is how we should be doing Google, this is how we should be utilising Facebook and Instagram and Ticktock and all these things. And that in itself is so interesting because you have to bring in what other industries are doing because dentistry is behind,

[00:41:20] You know, that’s true. But, you know, being at the forefront, SABERA, you said in the forefront of this, by its very nature, I mean, it’s you end up making some mistakes, right? Of course. And, you know, we have a section in this podcast where we talk about clinical errors, but you’re not doing much clinical errors along the way. What have you learnt from them?

[00:41:42] I think working alongside some of the best people around me has helped me navigate so that I don’t make as many errors, I suppose. And they’re the best in that field and everyone else strengths. And it’s recognising what everyone’s strengths are and utilising them. But I think some of the mistakes that I’ve made maybe in digital as well, is, you know, I worked really closely with the marketing team and we got really excited. And we’re like, this is going to go into this. We’re going to do this. And sometimes their expectations and their knowledge of it isn’t as good as mine. Like, I don’t know, the digital industry. I don’t know how tech is created or how long it takes to do X, Y, Z. So I think my sometimes my mistake is just thinking that my pace is one thing that everyone that works for me you will hear them say is just ridiculous. Like, I will just expect things to think, OK, we need to make a website, let’s do it. It should be done by next week. That’s it. And then I’ll just run with that. Everything I do is run. Those were my mistakes. I learnt on that, set the expectations and understand the timelines because I don’t think my entrepreneurial pace and flair will ever go. And my teams are constantly saying, oh my gosh, she’s on the next thing. But it’s the realistic expectations of other people and what what we need to be doing and then obviously building in my cashflow and my finances around that. So I think that made some mistakes around that. I would say that I’ve learnt just

[00:43:07] What we were talking yesterday with the guys from the small academy and Prav talk about this all the time. Well, you know, the balance of your head has to be in the future. An amount of your head has to be in today. And it’s almost like no leadership and management or whatever operations and in a business development or whatever. Yeah. How how much of your head is in the day to day running of the things is that sounds like not that much of it. Like you’ve got people taking care of that. And how much of it is thinking future what you want to achieve in.

[00:43:43] I think actually you’d be surprised that a lot of it is in that is in the now and I’ve learnt that being the president is everything because that really shapes what’s going to happen. But I think that a lot of my head is in the in the entrepreneurial growth of where I want to be. But actually from a day to day aspect, I’m not doing that every day. I would like to do more, but I think, like we said before, you know, really still in its infancy and the team need me and I I hope they need me more. So but the fact that having a short maternity and just getting back on my cause and being there, you know, that value-add for me, I feel is definitely needed every day and wanted as well. I do see that that I am part of the brand and that the team needs that. It’s not just, you know, patients are so important and giving the patients that flavour of your brand and your quality is everything. But actually for the team, what they need from the brand is me, really. So I’ve got to do that every day in terms of that that leadership, I think that’s so important.

[00:44:50] So how often do you have those conversations with them? I mean,

[00:44:53] So at the moment I probably the structure runs where we now have we’re doing everything now over Zoom’s as well as meetings, but we will meet with different levels of teams. So I would say managers meetings are weekly. Then you have board meetings with the group level. Teams are kind of monthly, but actually group level members. I’m probably speaking to them three or four times a week. So it’s very informal. I’m wearing too many WhatsApp groups and Dental we really need to relax with those. But, you know, we’re always in conversation with them. I think I have a really good relationship with all of them that it’s very informal. It’s like Sabr, we need you for this X, Y, Z, and I’m there.

[00:45:37] It’s so interesting. One thing you said that you’re looking at the 20, 30 year long term kind of goals of two, three years. And now, I mean, we were saying before, it feels like you’ve been around for longer than two does. There was the knee injury, but just as a brand, just as a brand, really just seems like it’s been there a long, long time. Yeah. And that’s testament to the quality of the I guess, the content to mean at the end of the day and Prav of seeing the content more than anything else. So on a operational basis, you’ve got this so many things going on. And you mentioned Lindsey, you’re right. What you reckon is going to happen. I mean, is it scalable to have one one to one conversations with with so many of your staff members so often? I mean I

[00:46:34] Mean, no, I mean, the Internet is there’s elements of I’ve seen that with my dad growing. You’re not going to get to a point where you’re in a scalable position and doing all of that all the time. That’s not a realistic expectation. And also it’s not healthy. I wouldn’t be able to have a good balance between being a mom as well, but I feel like it is scalable for the right people. You know, I call them my jams at group level and they really are my gems. All the girls and all the team members, they all have a value add. And that’s what’s scalable, because once I find those little gems and they have their little strengths and they all work together, well, that’s already starting to scale. We didn’t have that. We had one person and me and then we had three people and me at group level. Now we have six, seven people at group level and that is already scaling and we’ve got three clinics. So then it’s just and then it’s also bringing in industry experts, other industry experts that we don’t need in-house. We have a marketing team that’s strategically built around people that are not in the industry, but they are value adding massively and are heavily invested into the clinic. So I do see it scalable. I think obviously it’s certainly want me, but their value in their passion and their belief in now, you know, once they have that, then they’re scalable in themselves.

[00:48:02] Say they’re just going down to basically you day in, day out. I mean, what’s what’s a day in the life time you wake up? I go to bed. What happens between a typical week time with the kids? Yeah, like cold and Zoom’s of meetings and strategy and all the rest of it. Just just walk us through what it’s like living in your shoes.

[00:48:26] I mean, every day is different, isn’t it? When you’ve got three little kids and three practises, you don’t know what’s coming your way. You know, especially the clinics and the kids is so unpredictable. But I like to have my structure. I have structure in my routine. My kids need that. And also I need that. So I I suppose. My main thing is my fight. He’s only five, Ryan and Zachariah will be three and nine is only five weeks. So within the boys, they have a good structure in their routine. So my day is revolving around what their routine is, but I create their routine. So it works around me so that once they get to school, if I’m I’m going to the clinics, it’s a different thing. If I’m at home and working from home, it’s different. So my calls roughly will be going between 10 and three and

[00:49:15] Four times a week.

[00:49:16] So I wake up not early enough, but with an I am up like five thirty six, so I’m up. And then, you know, it’s all a bit different because I’ve got a newborn and I’m nothing at the moment. So it’s all a bit up in there. But I try to wake up so that the kids are prepped and ready to go for school. But I have a fantastic support system of my husband and my nanny around me. So I can’t just say I do this all by itself. It sounds way too crazy and it’s such a hands on dad, so it really helps me. So our life is actually revolve like a tag team. When he needs to be in the clinic, he’s clinical. I’m doing the morning shift stuff and then he’s out and vice versa. So it’s always one of us doing the kids and then yeah, between ten and I’d say two, three. That’s when I’m pretty much heavy on cause. And it’s not just clinical cause a lot of my calls are legal financial investor calls. So I have a lot of business stuff. Like you said, the brand grew very big in the short space of time that, you know, all these things and structures from a business and legality perspective, I’m now literally just putting into place because we didn’t need them before. So there’s a lot of that going on in what I do.

[00:50:29] And then I will catch up throughout the day when I’m with the kids, I try to be present with the kids and not be on my phone. I think that’s one learning thing that me and I both are trying to, you know, that’s something that’s an error. And we need to fix in terms of how do we have to work life balance, because when the team need us, we might be with children and, you know, our attention is not there. So it’s a bit of that. And then, you know, kids are coming home at three o’clock. By that time, I’m with them. So I try to keep up with them once they’re asleep by seven. I have about two, three hours. That’s when I get back on my laptop and finish my work. So I’m usually my follow ups are done in the evening. So a lot of my team at all the emails, maybe 12:00, 1:00 a.m., 2:00 a.m. and they’re like, oh my God, what she’s doing don’t need to reply. Some of them have actually replied, no, you don’t need to reply. I’m just doing it when I can do it. So my routine is is very different. And it just has evolved because we’ve had to be a tag team and have young kids waking up. You know, my kids are really bad sleepers. You know, it’s just hard.

[00:51:32] See, from about 6am to midnight. One o’clock.

[00:51:36] Yeah, probably Brisas earlier. He’s like, oh, about five and he’s like five AM club. So he’s like, you’re really not waking up early enough.

[00:51:46] There is also involved in the management side or is he more clinical.

[00:51:49] He’s more clinical. He’s heavily clinical. He works in the clinics, all three clinics, but he’s kind of the right hand person for me in terms of mentorship and advice. He knows everything, the ins and outs with the clinic. But I always get his perspective because it always helps me because he knows the clinical perspective. So managing perspective and business is very different. So it works well. So he’ll always have that advisory input. But via me, all the girls, you know, he’s quite close to the group level team as well. So he hasn’t got much time to do both. He’s so clinical.

[00:52:26] You seem so confident with it. I mean, I don’t mean your demeanour. I mean I mean just the moves you’re making, the way the way you’re going forward. What keeps you up at night apart from the babies? I mean, what worries you about the business? Which what’s your worst nightmare?

[00:52:45] My worst nightmare is myself, what I can give, because my ambitions and my an entrepreneur like blood even worries me. And I’m like, why am I doing this to myself? You need to relax. And that’s what like I say, because, like, I am obsessed. Like I can’t sleep at night because I’m thinking of the next big thing. I’m I’m not even the next big thing. I’m thinking of the next thing. And I take it so personal, I take it to heart. There’s something that’s happening, even if it’s like negotiating deals with certain things, even if it’s a clinical thing, even if it’s a patient problem, you know, those things affect you because when it’s your own business, they do keep you up at night. They do

[00:53:26] Sleep. But element of I’ve got some friends with super successful parents. There’s an element of you you need to prove yourself. Because because, you know, super successful, I’ve

[00:53:38] Never had that from them, though, like they never did it for me. From you, I think it’s probably for myself that I do want. I think I was in awe of my dad and uncle, of how they did what they did and how they did it and the buzz that it gives. It’s a bit of an addiction and it’s I can see it in my dad now. He moved. He’s moved. He lives in Dubai now, but he had to move because he couldn’t stop. And he’s working there now. And he’s expanded Khattak in Dubai just to be able to retire in Dubai. So I just think there’s an element of you are addicted. It’s it’s an obsession. And that buzz that you get, I think it just wrapped up for me. And I wanted to have what they had in terms of that, that because of what they got from what they love to do. And if you love what you do that much, your journey is so fun. It’s just so fun. Like it’s not work. It’s really not work like me. And I have to say to each other, let’s stop talking about work. We really need to consciously do it because it’s we don’t see it like that.

[00:54:48] You mentioned your mom was was taking the personal development course. What was her role in growing up and was involved in the business side as well.

[00:54:58] So she wasn’t she my mom actually got married when she was 17. So she actually left halfway through her A-levels, I think. And she then had me at 17, 18, something like that. So she had me young. So she was at home with us. It was a massive household. So she was running the household and it was my dad and uncle that really were the breadwinners and did that. So I then had also a double edged sword because I wanted to be so, so good at my ambition and my career and do all of that. But I had that amazing role model of my mum and aunty who had five, six kids and were amazing mother roles and the way they did that. And then I wanted to be able to do that as well. And I was like, I wanted to be both. And that’s where I was. I really need to find my own way because, you know, my mum always said to me, I didn’t go to uni. I didn’t have work so I could give X, Y, Z, and I’m trying to do everything. So it’s just I have to find my own way as well.

[00:55:59] It’s like, you know, these days we were talking about Sophina Ahmat before these days with technology and one of the things about owning a business and running a business and all three of us in that, you can kind of fix the business around your your lifestyle. Yeah, but but one thing I would say, why is it is a woman thing to many women really beat themselves up over perfection, wanting to be the perfect mother, the perfect businesswoman, you know, all of those things. And for me, it’s like, you know, you were talking about knowing yourself, self-awareness, self-awareness and understanding your imperfections. Yeah, 100 percent knowing knowing what you’re not good and being cool with that, you know, in a way you don’t just improve. But I notice too many, too many women beating themselves up on this subject.

[00:57:01] Yeah, I mean, it is and it’s a massive thing with women, especially like post natally and postnatal depression and mental health for women at the moment is a massive topic and it is massive. But I feel like women put that pressure on themselves more. It’s from themselves. You know, I’m so fortunate I don’t have a husband that’s putting that pressure on me at all. And, you know, it’s all if I’m doing what I want to do. And he’s there to support that. But I think nowadays there are forces that supported by it genuinely from the woman. And I don’t know why we are that way. I think it’s about being the best we can be in ourselves

[00:57:43] As opposed to admirable, right?

[00:57:45] Yeah, I think it is. You know, when you have a child, you know, you want to be the best mother you can be. Yeah. So I said,

[00:57:53] This lady come and lecture in Belfast. She’s about to go on a second maternity. Yeah. Immediately agreed to it, arrange flights as she’s coming in lecturing and going out same day. Yeah. And you know, it’s massively applicable. It is my.

[00:58:10] Yeah she’s great. She you know and I think that strong women around you like me with my maternity and how I am and other women are Dental that work with us Saxenian and I’ve got Lyndsey and I’ve got loads of women around in the room with our working mums. But it’s the passion for what we do. It’s not because we have to do it and it’s not because we will feel like we fail. If we do it, it’s because we enjoy it. And like I said, it’s it is the addiction. And also I feel I’ve always said I feel like I’m a better mum because of what I do, because I feel like I’m a strong role model for my kids and what I do, that work ethic and drive and that graph that they see me do. And also I feel like I’m a more sane person. I have no shame in saying that. Like, I enjoy having my own time, like I want to go out into the world, have grown up conversations and come back to my kids and still have. So it doesn’t make me a bad mum. And, you know, it’s accepting that a lot of women find that hard to even accept, to even say, I want to go out and do something. I want to go out and, you know, and come back and have that time. And I think it’s mentally healthy to you know, some people don’t need to, and that’s okay. But I genuinely, for myself, I need that. I need my mind to be somewhere else and engulfed in something else. Otherwise I’ll be so obsessed with the kids and in an unhealthy way, being too worried about how long they’re eating, sleeping with that. It just it just

[00:59:49] Love that them love that very much. So look, we always end these podcasts on the same on the same note. It’s really around legacy. You’re way too young for this question.

[01:00:03] It makes me feel depressed.

[01:00:06] But several people have pointed out, as you never know in life. Right. So, yeah,

[01:00:12] Of course, you don’t know what’s around the corner. I some

[01:00:14] Final question tends to be Prav

[01:00:17] Or three Zenga. Imagine it was your last day on the planet. You’ve got the other children around you and you need to leave the world by giving them three pieces of wisdom. What would those pieces of advice be?

[01:00:35] It’s really weird because this is the question that I asked my grandparents before when they were quite sick, and I think it would be the same advice that they gave me that I would want to give to my kids, and that would be live every day with your presence. So live happily every day. Don’t ever go to sleep, you know, upset or anything like that, you know, live happy and sorry. I just don’t get emotional. I’ve been thinking of them saying to me, but yeah, I’d live happy and be in your moment and then think, you know, one thing that my grandparents always said is stop overthinking, stop overthinking, stop thinking of things that aren’t happening. You know, the president is actually fine. You’re thinking of things that actually haven’t existed. So that’s one big piece of advice. I think the second piece of advice I would give them is always have respect and love for each other and be close to each other. I think the unity of the family I’ve seen in my own family has been the strength of the whole life. The unity within family bonds is so strong that you don’t really realise the wisdom of what that is and how that really shapes us people.

[01:01:53] And I would give that advice to my kids as well. Keep your unity within your bones strong and just be good to the outside world and just be good people, be kind, be caring and always think of others. I would definitely say that I always think of others and give more without expecting a return. Give more and don’t expect things that you give out of your heart and out of good intention and leave the rest, leaves the rest. If we believe in God, we say I say leave the rest to God. Otherwise leave the rest to your karma and always give more. Give more. If you think you’re going to give and charity, give a little bit more. And if you think you’re going to give someone advice, give a bit more. Just go out of your way to give other people more, because I do feel that that comes back on you. So that would be my advice to my kids.

[01:02:38] A lovely place.

[01:02:40] Thanks for sharing that. And what would you what would you like to see if you were to complete the following sentence? Zabo was don’t how would you like to be remembered?

[01:02:53] Um, just a great mom, a great daughter and a great wife. I think my three major important roles. And then in myself, I would say also to be remembered as an inspiration, inspiration to other women, to other just to everyone, to anyone. That’s part of my journey. Just I’ve touched you. I’ve inspired you, motivate you in some sort of way. So, yeah,

[01:03:22] If I’m on my final question, Xaver, and I know your answer is going to be very different to the boys that we spoke to yesterday. Yeah. I just want you to know that if you have thirty days left, how would you spend it?

[01:03:44] Good, that’s hot. Um, I don’t know, I think I’d want to spend it around my close family. I think you want to be around your family, friends. And, you know, I’d obviously want to spend it in Ruu as well and making sure that that’s all, because I want that to grow and not be because of me. I want that to be strong and a brand because it because of how good that is, not because of the person.

[01:04:15] I can only say it has been inspiring to that and just listening to you, how you handled the whole work life balance, the three kids, the three clinics, and so admirable at such a young age, such

[01:04:30] A young age. I mean, we’re an old Prav, but at such a young age to be doing as much as you’re doing. It’s just it’s just super, super, very inspiring.

[01:04:39] It makes it exciting where we’re going.

[01:04:40] Payman, lovely to have you.

[01:04:44] Thank you so much for having me.

[01:04:46] Thanks so much for doing this piece.

[01:04:50] Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:05:05] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it

[01:05:20] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:05:30] And don’t forget our six star rating.

This week’s guest is international lecturer, teacher, implantology expert and all-around nice guy Dr Hassan Maghaireh.

Hassan shares his invaluable insight into the world of implantology. Plus, we take a look into his teachings at the British Academy of Implant and Restorative Dentistry.

Hear about Hassan’s love/hate relationship with social media and his passion for education and quality.



“When it comes to implant dentistry, it’s all about planning, planning, planning, planning and sharing that plan with your mentor, discussing and double-checking. Have no ego; whenever you get ego playing, that’s when things go wrong.” – Hassan Maghaireh


In This Episode


03.23 – Jordan to Cairo

05:04 – Hospital life

06.52 – Parental influence

05.56 – Results day

08:27 – Parental Advice

10:49 – Starting in implant dentistry

13:34 – Going global

16:10 – Providing quality

23:02 – Patient research

29:51 – Being a rounded GDP

36:10 – Spotting issues early

42:29 – BAIRD

46:38 – Batman & Robin

54:31 – Structuring pricing

58:22 – Travelling

59:56 – Social media

01:02:08 – Work/life balance

01:10:51 – Mentoring

01:14:04 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Hassan Maghaireh


Hassan Maghaireh is a member of the Royal College of Surgeons Edinburgh and has completed years of rigorous training in various maxillofacial units.

He holds a Clinical Master’s degree in Implant Dentistry from the University of Manchester won the best clinical presentation award in 2008.

Hassan is the head of the scientific committee at the British Academy of Implant & Restorative Dentistry and works on private implant referrals in Leeds and Northern Ireland. 

He is a frequent author of dental literature, the editorial director of Smile Dental Journal and is a sought-after lecturer nationally and internationally. He is also on the editorial board for the European Journal of Oral Implantology.

[00:00:00] Obviously, when it comes to implant dentistry, it’s a very critical field if you place your implant one millimetre to labial, the whole thing going to fan and you’re going to get Middleville recession. So it makes or break the case, the correct implant positioning. It’s like domino effect. If the first block isn’t drive, everything else would be wrong. So when it comes to implant dentistry, it’s all about plotting, planning, planning, planning and sharing that plan with your mentor, discussing double checking and having no ego whenever you get ego playing. That’s when things go wrong.

[00:00:44] This is Dental Leaders podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders and dentistry. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:01] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Hassan McGeary onto the podcast, one of the foremost authorities on implant ology and the country teacher. Been a long time. I’ve watched Hassan from a distance for a long time. Your reputation is growing and growing, but lovely to have you on the show. Hassan, you know this podcast, we try and get to the back story. So let’s start with that. What was your childhood like? Where were you born? What were you like as a kid? Was the first time you looked at dentistry?

[00:01:32] Thank you so much. Payman Prav for the kind invitation privilege to be one of your guests on Dental Leaders podcast. I was born in Malcolm Lancaster, and when I was two or three years old, my parents moved back to Jordan. My dad was a urologist at the time, having his training in England and Scotland. And then I grew up in Jordan, did my high school in Jordan. And I’ve always wanted to be like my dad because for me, my dad is my hero. He’s the one who’s been there for us. He’s the one who’s always, you know, even in the extended family. He’s the one people come to him for his advice. So I’ve always wanted to be a surgeon like him, a urologist even. And I remember when I was 15, 16 years old, I would go and join him in his theatre just to watch him operating. And I did my high school and I’ve applied for medicine and I had to go to university, is accepting me one in Cairo, in Egypt and in Belfast, and obviously I wanted to come to Belfast. And my mom at the time, she didn’t want me to be far away from her. So she sort of convinced me to go to Cairo because it’s only an hour flight from Amman, Jordan, where I grew up in Jordan. It’s a funny story. I landed to Cairo and then the procedure was for me to go to the Jordanian embassy, get my paperwork, and then go to the to the medical school so I can start my journey. Funnily enough, I went to the embassy and I found my papers prepared to go to the Dental school, not medical school.

[00:03:23] And I was a bit upset. And I remember making a bit of a scene in front of the ambassador and the counsellor and even accusing the ambassador of being corrupt person, taking my position in the medical school, passing it to someone else of his relatives and moving me to the Dental school. So the ambassador at the time, actually, he was really nice kind person. He sort of let me talk and talk and talk for long, five minutes. And then at the end he said, Have you finished my son? And I said, Yes, I have. And he was like, Right. Your dad called me two days ago and asked me to move you to the Dental school. And I did this because of your dad’s request. And I was like, oh my God, I literally wish the Earth would just open and swallow me. I’ve felt so embarrassed because I was there full of passion, talking and shouting for five minutes, and then realised that it was my dad who put the request behind the scenes that I’d be moved to the Dental school, not medical school. So I went back and called my dad and said, Dad, why did you do this? And obviously for me, dad is my hero, so I always trust him. But I felt so bad about him doing this behind the scenes. And at the time, he talked to me and he said, Hassan, I know you very well, you’re not going to do well in medical school. You don’t like long surgeries. You are you’re an artistic person. Because when I was young, since I was young, I always like to draw and craft things.

[00:05:04] And, you know, my dad watched me being an artistic person and apparently my dad’s best friend was a dentist. And my dad always admired the lifestyle of that dentist. You know, my dad would be called in the middle of the night to go and see emergency patients and hospital and all that. And somehow I felt he envied his best friend, the dentist. So he made that decision. And obviously, in the Middle Eastern culture, you would respect your dad’s wishes. And John Dentistry in Cairo University, but I always loved surgery, so the first thing I’ve done the moment I finish my dentistry, I’ve sort of written and sent my CVS to Max Fox units in the U.K. and I started my oral surgery training because I wanted to come back to surgery. Funny enough, I worked in hospital for three, No. Four, five years as senior house officer and then as a staffer, great. And I reach a point in my life when I realise I don’t like hospital life. I felt bored. I I felt there was no challenge for me. You know, I didn’t like the fact I had the boss. I don’t like the fact that it’s like six hours. I need to give six week notice before I go on holiday. And I felt that’s not me. So I told my dad, he said, Dad, you know what? You were right. I’m going to go back to my dentist. And the guy just shows you that, you know, parents. No, no. You know, they know us very well. And this is my story.

[00:06:52] What a great story. It’s really interesting what you say that has done. I think me and Payman have been having conversations about bringing up children. Right. And also as a 20 something year olds thinking we would like. Yeah, the whole thing. And Dad would say to me, don’t do this, do that. I’m doing this for your own good, whatever. Yeah, but but then we thought well I thought at the time he was just being an arsehole. OK, that was my brother. In our culture we’ve got the respect and we follow whatever I guess. But looking back, you see all the reasoning behind it and why you’ve ended up where you are and all the rest of it and now is having that conversation with our kids new generation. Things have changed through and you kind of think, I do know that. But for me, I’m thinking they’ve got to figure it out for themselves. They’ve got to make their own mistakes, even though we know what’s what’s right. OK, and in ten years time, I’m going to say I told you so.

[00:07:55] I know. I know. But, you know, I think somehow my dad wanted the best for me and he knew me very well. And interestingly enough, I have my youngest brother. His call on my dad encouraged him to go to urology and he’s now urology urologist, consultant in Germany. So somehow my dad knew that Hasan is better as an artist, as a dentist, while Omar is better as a surgeon, as a urologist. And I respect him for that. I really respect him for that.

[00:08:30] So how sad. By that time that was your move to the UK, right? Doing all that. All surgery.

[00:08:34] Yes. Yes. Back in two thousand and two thousand and one.

[00:08:39] So then were you when you when you thought I’m going to leave hospital dentistry, were you thinking implant surgery, was that a predetermined thing or did you go and start doing some scale and polishers.

[00:08:52] Interesting. One thing, one thing. I mean, don’t get me wrong, when I did my junior training, I did it. I told Royal Infirmary in East Yorkshire and I had an amazing consultant. I still remember him. Chris Blackburn, he was the most human Max Fox consultant you would ever meet. And I enjoyed that. But then I started shadowing one of the other consultants doing Dental implants. And that’s when I start to like doing dental implants. And I remember going back to Jordan in the summer attending some dental implant courses because believe it or not, Dental implants in Jordan were so much more popular than UK in the private practise. And I remember I was very young doing my first dental implant for my mother under supervision of a mentor over there in Jordan. And I thought, this is what I like. You know, the beauty about dental implants. It’s a mix of everything, proper treatment planning, which is to do with dentistry, prosthetic work and then surgery and then a bit of perio management and then bit of mechanics and a bit of prosthodontics planning and such as finishing the cases. So for me, that made sense. A mixture of everything. I like everything. I loved art, dentistry and oral surgery. So yeah, I was kleve. And that’s why the moment I finished my hospital job, I went and joined my MASC at Manchester University. We were the first cohort at the time where we had two fantastic course directors, Paul Coulthart, who’s a maxillofacial surgeon, and Marco Esposito, who’s like a big figure in the world of evidence based implant dentistry.

[00:10:49] You know, people do good things and people marqués positive things when it comes to implant dentistry. He’s written more randomised controlled trials and implant dentistry more than anyone else in the world. So I was lucky to have them both, but I had a clear vision, I now remember my first day in my MCE were going to introduce myself to Marko telling him, Marco, I’m your student in this two year MFC course. And he was like, Hello, my son. And I said, I’m not here for the embassy. I’m here to be like you. I want to be a lecturer. I want to publish. I want to do research. I want to be someone who’s teaching in dentistry just like you. And this is day one, MFC. And he looked at me top to bottom. As a kid, you haven’t even started what you’re talking about. But then this is the thing behind the scenes. Even when I was at high school, I would always go. I was very active as a scout and I always had a passion for teaching leadership. And I love that I used to go and teach English for the younger people. I used to go and teach science. So teaching being been part of my passion all the time. And for me, to be honest, MASC was not a target as much as just a little step towards achieving my passion. And that’s why I did my M.S. and dentistry.

[00:12:21] I had to play some implants and hospitals already or not.

[00:12:25] Yes, but it was completely different to what we do now because, you know, we’re talking about two thousand and five where even Maxford surgeons would just follow the bone. Obviously now implant dentistry is completely different. It’s all about what we call reverse treatment planning. You find the prosthetic envelop, you decide where it’s the ideal position for that perfect restoration. And then you check the bone and the body’s in there. You grow the bone. While in the past it used to be like put an implant wherever the bone is and send best wishes to the prosthodontics. It’s different. It’s different nowadays.

[00:13:08] Hassan, you spoke about your international sort of exposure to implant ology in Amman. And I remember once at the Dubai show, I saw you lecturing there and there was a massive fall. I wanted to have a chat with you about to wake. Wait, I know

[00:13:22] I remember that

[00:13:24] Because so many people were coming up to you, but you’ve got kind of a global angle on implant ology. Where are we now in the UK? Because last time I saw ElectraNet, we had fewer implants going in per head than Germany, France, all of all of Europe. Have we caught up on

[00:13:42] That through my personal

[00:13:47] And we have good with it is what do you guys see as the future? I mean, on the one hand, people are living longer and so they’re going to need more input. On the other hand, people aren’t losing t is implant ology something that’s going to get bigger or smaller ultimately for me?

[00:14:04] Yes. I mean, my personal opinion that UK is still behind compared to the rest of the world when it comes to the number of implants being placed per population. And that’s to do obviously, I think, with the fact we don’t have enough courses training younger people in implant dentistry. The undergrads have very little training on implant dentistry as part of their five year curriculum. And I think people in the UK for a long time being very conservative when it comes to implant dentistry. Having said that, more recently, you could see things are changing. Now, we have great figures in the world of implant dentistry in the U.K., the level of aesthetic implant dentistry is picking up and starting to compete on a global level. And that’s from the quality point of view, from the quantity. Yes, I totally agree with you. We still have huge, huge space for more implants in the UK market. And that’s why I think a young dentist who has passion for surgery to do is to get into implant dentistry and, you know, go to Germany, Italy. Every single practise will have an in-house implant dentist. I don’t think we have this still in the UK. And therefore, I you know, I think for a long time in the UK implant dentistry is going to be a very popular field of dentistry. And also not to mention like people lose teeth, like it or not. And because, as you said, people are living longer now. People are thought to be more aware of their health. In a recent statistics from the American Academy of Dentistry, they said about 70 percent or 65 percent of people who are of our age in the in the early 30s.

[00:16:10] Right. Will this number of people, 65 percent of people in their 40s will lose a single tooth? This is in the States. And I think we could apply the same in UK, if not more. And people are more educated. I start to get people coming to me and say my dentist wanted to give me a bridge. I don’t want to have a bridge. I want to have an input. And you know what? GDC makes it clear, even if you don’t place implants, you should mention as one of the treatment options, otherwise you could be in trouble. So I still believe UK is one of the best places to start and dentistry. And what I like about employing dentistry in UK, unlike Italy, unlike Germany, that we’re focussing on quality, we’re still expensive. So as a dentist, you can still charge more and spend more time with your dentist, with your patient and focus on quality. And actually implant dentistry is much, much cheaper. And obviously, when you do things cheaper, that means you cannot afford giving a lot of time for that specific patient because you have to just do things quicker and that’s where things start to go wrong. Now, I have heard that UK is maybe after Netherland, the second most expensive place to have an implant as a patient, which is good news for us as dentists, because, as I said, it allows us to focus on quality and give our patients the time they need so we can achieve top standards and dentistry.

[00:17:56] So so hasn’t the whole thing about us being behind on implants, the two things that are bouncing around my head and one, you’ve just you’ve just brought to the surface, which is price. And could that be a factor as to the number of implants going into people’s heads? And the second thing is something that resonates with me all the time in any aspects of my life is you don’t know what you don’t know. And so there’s so many dentists out there who see a missing tooth and the only thing they know to prescribe is a bridge or a partial. And this whole thing about actually there’s a lot of dentists out there that don’t even know that’s an option. And certainly in my own clinic, we see a lot of patients that come in with loose dentures. Right. They don’t even know implants exist yet. When you explain to them that you could have an implant, assisted denture or fixed teeth, it’s like you just won the lottery in terms of the excitement on their face, in terms of the possibilities of being able to eat food again, the possibilities of being able to throw away actually. Yeah. How much of how much of this do you think relates to people not knowing, dentists not knowing what they don’t know, patients not knowing what they don’t know and then expense.

[00:19:13] Prav, this is an amazing point, and I’d like to build on this and say it is not an excuse nowadays you cannot be a dentist without building some knowledge about implant dentistry. OK, even if you if you know, it’s not for you, you’re not a surgeon. You don’t want to get involved in implant dentistry. You need to at least build a minimum level of knowledge about implants, dental implants, because as we said, and I know this is a true story, friend of mine, young graduate. So this patient giving him a fantastic three unit bridge, this patient goes down, like to meet his friends in a pub and apparently one of the other friends had an implant. And it’s a true story. Patient comes back after a year complaining to that lady why she didn’t offer him an implant and bless that lady decided to keep it in-house because she knew if he goes to the GDC, she’s in trouble. She decided to pay me to give him an implant instead of his bridge. So it’s happening, you know, so it is not and it’s not an excuse for the dentist, not to mention dental implants nowadays. Now, on the other aspect, I think what’s happening, though, is that people are not comfortable mentioning or talking in detail about dental implants because there is a fine balance between offering to the patients what they need and being. And you don’t want to be seen as a hard sell person. You’re not you know, with dentists we don’t want to sell. And that’s is where things go wrong. I’m talking about over dentures.

[00:20:57] I’m in the middle of preparing a lecture for part of my implant course and it wasn’t over dentures. And whatever you update the lectures, you go on the research. And I found some interesting research showing that, well, number one, we had what we called Magal consensus. So a group of prosthodontics more than ten years ago met in McGill in Canada on a global level. And they decided or they came up with a consensus that the absolute minimum standard of care for someone with a Dental, a lower jaw is to implants and over densha. So between two brackets, giving them a conventional lower Dental is inhuman. This is according to make it now, you might say, oh, these are Canadians. These are Americans. Now, the same group met in York a few years ago and had the second consensus with the British society of prosthodontics, and they confirmed these findings. So I said as a dentist, you should not be offering, according to the Dental literature and evidence based research, he should not be offering lower dentures, conventional dentures to our human patients. That’s No. One further. Furthermore, interestingly, they did a research comparing conventional dentures with implant dentures. And this research basically based on patient satisfaction and meeting expectations. And they found people with lower implantable dentures will have better quality of life, better stomach, better ability to chew and believe it or not, better ability to enjoy sexual activities. So they asked him about that and they said even sexual activities, kissing and all that has improved with people who were restored with improved dentures and a

[00:23:00] Sign

[00:23:02] That, well, the patient surveys, they go to them and they literally they ask them how many times in the last week you you’ve slept with your partner compared to those with conventional dentures. This is evidence based research implants, man, dental and dental implants, nothing else.

[00:23:27] Hassan, I’m just about to change my entire marketing strategy around me.

[00:23:33] I’m happy to share that research with you. And it’s part of my lecture. So, yeah, it’s there.

[00:23:40] Let me ask you something about two things. You’ve got you’ve got you’ve got the students who you teach now. Yeah. And you’ve got the people who like me as a dentist. When I was a dentist, I had absolutely no interest in becoming a surgeon. And that’s the reason I went to dentistry so that I wouldn’t come across surgery. What was the idea? I do. I don’t want to be that guy. So of those two categories and you said especially what you said about the GDC and dentists having to know the basics of implant ology, what are the. The things that a lot of people don’t know about Implant told you that they really should. Let me give you an example in my world. There’s a common myth. All bleaching gels are saying, yeah, yeah. I mean, if once you try three or four or five with 20 years experience, that’s absolutely not true. But on the surface of it, you might think that because they’re named by percentages. So what in your world, first for the group, the choose implant allergy and come in. What’s one misconception they’ve got? And what about the other group who don’t choose it? And what what, what? For instance, I don’t know about grafting teleportation. Is there enough bone there or not.

[00:24:53] So pay if I may just divert the question first into what do we expect from a general dentists in UK to know about implant dentistry? All right. I would like to look at you as a dentist. You have a choice of one out of three levels. Level one, which is the basic minimum level, is to know that dental treatment is a treatment modality and speciality. It’s the treatment option should be mentioned to every patient before having your tooth out, OK, because the last thing you want is coming to you and say, should I have known the implant? Is that expensive, I wouldn’t have had that tooth removed. So it’s something you need to mention even before taking the tooth that OK, you say, right, Mr. Smith, you’re having this, too, that today and your treatment options are Densher pros and cons adhesive breg pros and cons, fixed breg pros and cons, Dental and pros and cons. And there are all or nothing. Exactly. And there are courses out there, whether they’re online or one day or evenings, which will provide you this level of knowledge. OK, so it is not an excuse not to know this. And then level to say, you know what, I have a restorative dentist, I enjoy being a multidisciplinary dentist, but I don’t want to do surgery. So you can choose to restore dental implants and be involved in the planning for dental implant as part of a multidisciplinary case.

[00:26:40] And then level three is to say, do you know what my patients like me, my patient, trust me. And I do mostly every aspect of the of dentistry. So I want to keep my implant patients in-house. And then you could then attend one of these courses, which will teach you from A to Z, like the course we run at the Barrett Academy. We take people assuming they’ve never done a flap or suture in their life, and then we go through an intensive one year course where we go, then take them from basic level to the advanced level, because according to the international team of entomology, which is the biggest global organisation to do with dental implants, the cases are classified into simple or straightforward. Sorry, there’s nothing, nothing simple. Let’s call it straightforward, advanced and complex. The moment you move to the interior region, it’s called advanced. And you and I know most of our patients in the United Kingdom will be more worried about a gap if it’s in the anterior region. So I go and tell my delegates that the bread and butter of dentistry in the United Kingdom at the moment is advanced cases in the anterior region. And that’s why in the course we teach straightfoward an advance in one year, OK, because it’s not fair just to know the straightforward and then struggle later on to learn the advance.

[00:28:15] Now, when we go to your questions, if you go back to your question, people need to understand that the success criteria for dentistry has completely changed since they were first introduced in the mid 80s compared to what we have now in the mid 80s. If their flight is fully integrated and it’s not causing pain and there isn’t massive bone loss or pus discharge, that’s success nowadays. It’s all about the peak. It’s all about the peak aesthetics around the dental implants. So if anything doesn’t look natural and doesn’t integrate with the surrounding soft tissue and bone of the natural teeth, this is failure. And to get into that, you need to follow a strict system. You don’t need to be super experienced to tackle these cases. As long as you have a system you follow without cutting corners, without compromising. And this is where we go. And plus are not all the same, 100 percent in all the same. You know, there are premium and plus systems which have good surfaces, good internal connexion. They give you less leakage and there are cheaper systems which basically you cannot maintain the bone level around them and you cannot maintain healthy soft tissue around them. And obviously there are many other factors such such as patient selection, such as plotty prosthetic, reversible of planning and all these aspects, like

[00:29:51] That’s something that I’m just going to go back to the basic requirements of the GDP. I think what you’re saying is really, really important and it really resonates with conversations I’ve had with a completely different discipline. Orthodontics, right. He says that he will not sit in your chair for a Check-Up unless you have a reasonable basic understanding of orthodontics and how to move all the time. Not not that you can fit Sprocket’s in wires and all the rest of it, but that you will understand the basic concepts and also you understand the teeth are always moving, etc., etc.. And I think you’re probably saying the same thing, that as a general dentist, there is a responsibility to at least understand treatment options, the basics of treatment planning, even if you can’t carry it out. Now, that’s clearly not that’s not happening today. Even a lot of dentists that I speak to today, you mentioned the word orthodontics and instils fear, right. That’s an orthodontist job. You mention the word implants and that’s blood and surgery. And it creates fear amongst some dentists. What do you think needs to change with the curriculum? Make maybe even before postgraduate education right in your site in order to create what I would deem to be a. Complete GDP. OK, well rounded, complete GDP, who would come to the surface to know that actually, you know, if you’ve got a missing tooth, as you said earlier, these your options, if you’re missing all your teeth, is meant to do this. Yeah. What do you think needs to change curriculum wise? Does that need to be like in your one year postgrad fundamental training? Does something need to be introduced at Dental school, a basic level? What are your thoughts on that, being a teacher in the field? What do you think needs to change?

[00:31:53] To be honest, Prav to be fair. I mean, I know the curriculum varies from one Dental school to another. Let’s make that clear. And I know some Dental schools start to integrate more sort of lectures, more focussed on Dental influence. But definitely as a dentist, forget about treatment options. Let’s say, you know, anyone can say, yeah, you’ve got a job, I’m going to send you to unemployment dentists to have a look. But imagine let’s have a scenario. You’re doing a Check-Up, right? And as you do the Check-Up, there are two Dental implants in this patient’s mouth. And somehow you have a duty as a dentist to check is everything OK or not? Because the idea of the check up is prevention better than cure and just pop things at early stage. So you as a dentist, you need to somehow have the knowledge of. Right. What is a successful and what looks like and what is an unhealthy implant looks like. And, you know, it’s a huge debate. Do we probe, do we not probe the how do we know this is Pierrepont Mucositis or per implant itis? Is that implant crowd fully seated or not fully seated? Is it loose? You know, there are so many things as a dentist you need to work on to be able to provide the absolute minimum. And it will be really nice, as you said, if this is a straight forward information are incorporated within the undergrad curriculum,

[00:33:38] Let’s do our bit. Let’s do our bit to to redress that. What do you do? Do you prefer that you are OK?

[00:33:45] This it it depends on which school you belong to. OK, now there is one school which says you should probe because probing is one of the most important things to double check whether the patient has some sort of gum disease about your implant, because bleeding on probing is one of the early signs of disease around the dental implant. Now, the other school says, well, actually, we know that the sulcus around that implant is a very weak sulcus with no proper dates. So if you if you put a carrier probe that you might initiate a trauma and introduce bacteria into the area. So personally, the way I do it, the way I’ve been doing doing it for a long time and teaching, I say we need to use the Perry probe, but rather than go and sort of go epically, I would just get my period in the initial part of the sulcus, which is the one millimetre, and then start to move sort of in circumferential movement, because by doing this, if the gum is not healthy, it will bleed. And that would be a sign. But without needing to disturb the energy he made this Muzzammil attachment or the sort of deep connective tissue attachment. Having said that, what I also do if I see there is a bit of bleeding and I’m a bit worried I would remove my crown and then I will get my period probe and I start checking for loss of attachment around the implant itself in a direct vision. OK, because there is no way you can probe and implant with the tooth on the top or what you do. Are you proposing a metal abutment? Unless you have a fibre optic flexible Perrier probe which goes around the emergence profile of your apartment. So for that reason, nowadays there is a huge shift into screw retained restorations which are easy to retrieve. And then you would go and check the loss of attachment around your Dental itself. But then according to that

[00:36:03] At the top and my qualified to do that or not. Well, this is probably the glass and I refer

[00:36:10] I would say that if there is a bit of bleeding, I would say go to the patient, say, all right, we have. An early sign of gum disease, I think you definitely will need to go and see your dentist, and if anything, I tend to educate my referrals to say, you know what, your life safety net, you just spot things go wrong or just spot things that early stage and leave it for me to treat and manage. Because usually this sort of management is going to be offered complementary to my patients who come on regular basis. So it doesn’t cost us much, but the earlier we intervene, the better.

[00:36:56] And what about what about the maintenance from the hygiene perspective? Do you believe in metal instruments or plastic ones or what?

[00:37:03] Let me tell you something, and this is in agreement with Marcus postictal and another perfect friend and mentor, Crowfoot Bain, who’s a professor I’ve met in Dubai. He used to be the head of the department in Dubai and now moves back to Glasgow. And I’m proud to have him as one of the speakers on our birth course. What we say we would rather have is scratched and clean abutment rather than polished and dirty abutment as simple as that. So for me, cleaning is priority. OK, yes, we do have now a titanium hand scalars which are good. But sometimes if you need to use ultrasonic, I have no issues with using a proper ultrasonic, even with a metal tap. Nice.

[00:37:55] When you have these people on your course. How many was the cohort number.

[00:38:00] Well, I mean, interestingly enough, we used to run one cohort every year and we would go from 15 to 16. And during the lockdown we noticed lots of dentist has made the decision to upscale and all of a sudden our courses start to be such a huge demand. So now we run to cohort’s and we have 20 dentists on each cohort. So we’ve improved the infrastructure. We improve the number of mentors, we increase the number of mentors, and we are running to cohort’s every year. And yeah, we do it one in October, one in January. Usually dentist needs to book one year in advance because our October cohort is fully booked and our January 22 is now half booked.

[00:38:53] So what’s the worst investment in time and money?

[00:38:58] Well, that’s a good question, because there are different courses and one of the main issues, like people want to learn and plans and they don’t know where to go. And for me, you either start right or you don’t start. So there are different courses who have different durations. And then we can talk about another question, MSE or one year course that we can talk about in a few moments now, because, as I said, I made a decision to incorporate straightforward and advanced skills in the one year because I personally feel to be successful and dentists in the private sector, you need to tackle entier cases properly, because what happens is some people go and do the straightforward courses and then they don’t have the skills to tackle anti-terror cases. They still do that and they have failures. So our course is nine modules each module three days, so twenty seven days over a nine month period. And in our course we will provide our delegates with patients and Implats. So as part of the course, each delegate will be allocated patients to treatment plan and then later on to place in place for them and then later on to restore these cases. And then they document the cases and they present it in our final exam, which is an exam we do in front of an external exam.

[00:40:27] Every year we will invite one of the deans, one of the authorities, and implant dentistry in UK as an external examiner just to add validation to the course. And then we have an optional module ten, where we go to Athens for the weekend. And once they develop the knowledge they want, if they want to increase their experience, they come with us to Athens, where each dentist plays more than six to seven, plus get involved in another twenty five implants altogether. On top of that, this is the most important part we have in nationwide mentoring scheme because pay one thing, developing the knowledge and one thing getting the theory and having initial training, unless you start placing importance in your practise, you will never be a successful employer dentist. So we strongly believe in providing mentors who will visit the participants in their own practise, help them to sort of plan, start an entire career within that practise and then we mentor them. Depends on how many level, how many visits they need until we feel they’re safe to go solo.

[00:41:43] So we have this problem now on a composite course that some of the people who come on the course go on and become some of the composite people in the country and others don’t even start their first case. And I see it as a failure of ours, actually, because, I mean, influences are much more involved thing. But if a guy’s been on, by the way, it’s only a two day course. Right. But because being on a two day course with a spend that amount of time with us and then never really took it on, I feel like we made an error, rather, of course, this responsibility on both sides. But what percentage of people are like that with you, dude? What’s it for? Twenty seven days with you. Is there anyone who says, man, it’s not for me.

[00:42:29] I have to be honest with you. We’ve been we’ve been running this course for 11 years now. So this is something we started actually 12 years. We started 2009, as you know, when we started the course. It’s something I started myself and the story came out like I finished my masters. And I have passion for teaching and sharing my knowledge. And I realised there are lots of colleagues who want to learn and plus without going into assignments and thesis. So I started this course with literally five dentists, OK? And then gradually the course starts to grow and it grows by word of mouth. And I have to tell you, so far I only had one delegate who had two in the 11 years to pull out because she had to have the wedding and travel with her husband to another country. So she sort of she didn’t half way through should not continue. But out of the people who continued the course, I can with confidence tell you. Ninety five percent of them are placing implants. And I know this because we follow them up and we have our own WhatsApp group where all our dentists as part of the group and I have it’s in my passion. I keep calling them and checking on them how many cases you’ve done. And we also do every two years like a reunion. So all our best graduates come together for a full day when we do a full day symposium, when they present their cases. And it’s it’s a bit of fun. And when we meet together and we sort of try to develop a community where you finish the course and you get what’s the after sale service, and this is the most important part is the follow up, the encouragement, the mentoring. And, you know, we even try to contact companies and get them special offers. Like that’s the thing people invest in your course, the company or the importers, and they think this is it. They don’t realise, well, actually, they have to invest even afterwards with getting proper care, proper instruments, marketing skills. And that’s what they need to understand. It’s a journey.

[00:44:44] It’s the beginning of the journey.

[00:44:47] Not exactly. Exactly, but with the bird, because we’ve been there for 11 years now, people start to sort of acknowledge the brand and companies come to us and say, right, how we can help you. So like, for example, I’ve got here already offering more than 50 percent discount on our microsurgery kits for our delegates. We’ve got Woodpecker giving us a discount on the merchants. We’ve got Stralman, our fantastic supporter, giving us implants at discounted rate for the bed graduates. So the only way we teach them, but we literally support them to start the career because it is in my best interest that every delegates of my course become a successful dentist. And this is our passion. And this is, I think, what made us special.

[00:45:38] Your passion for this is is obvious, is palpable. You also have the same passion for practise life, of course.

[00:45:47] Yeah.

[00:45:48] Which one do you prefer?

[00:45:51] It’s literally like having two to two sons girlfriends. Yeah, exactly. Because for me I wouldn’t be able to be a good lecturer without a dental practise and I wouldn’t be able to practise well if I wasn’t lecturing. So both motivate me to be a better person because you don’t pay when you lecture, you somehow have this in your subconscious to become a very good clinician because you need to practise what you preach. They go to Dental and if you lecture, you need to have great cases to present. So you know both ways encourage each other.

[00:46:38] Hassan, recently we had a few conversations and what screened out to me, which is totally normal to you, is the way you operate with patients as a team. Right, and associate with an associate lecturer, stroke instructor who has a right hand. I was about to say winchman, but its wing woman and co-pilot, co-pilot, Batman and Robin, as I called it the other day when we spoke. But I guess what really struck out to me is every patient that you treat gets to implant Dentists’ for the price of one, OK, two sets of eyes, et cetera. And I spoke to so many dentists over the last 15 years, I’ve never come across this concept before. So what I’d like you to do is, first of all, tell me about how you met this doctor, right? Yes. Yes. And what really, really struck out to me is that you going up to your mentor when you were doing your mouth and saying, I want to teach, I want to research, I want to do this. Is the story similar? And then how did you become pilot and co-pilot? And sometimes you are a co-pilot, right?

[00:48:03] Oh, yes. Yes, please. So basically, you know, the whole thing goes back to the bare dichotomy, OK, you know, as I said, when I teach, I teach because I want to spread my passion. This is my number one. If you speak to any of our delegates, I’d like to think and they tell me they come and tell me one thing they get from the courts is the passion, OK? And to be honest, what really motivates me to to lecture, to update my lectures, I could be up till midnight, just going to research, to update my lecture. What really motivates me that some of these delegates, they drive all the way from Edinburgh or from Exeter or from Devon to Leeds, so they drive six hours just to come and join my cause. And this is something they do twenty seven times every year. So that motivates me a lot. But then when you find someone who’s willing, not only driving 200 miles. No. To fly like thousand five hundred miles or even more, twenty seven times, that sort of shows you how motivated that person is. And this is the story of Victoria. I mean, we have Victoria and we had other people flying from other countries. But Victoria, the story started. I was lecturing in Bulgaria and she was there as one of the audience and we were talking and she said she wants to become an dentist. And, you know, me being nice, I said, yeah, I’m running an import course and leads by all means you could join. And this conversation was in December, September. Afterwards, she joined the chorus, so she moved to UK and she decided she moved specially to do this course.

[00:50:03] And then she tends to be one of the bright candidates we had. So I offered her a job to be my associate. And at the time I thought, you know, what? Would it be nice to have a younger dentist who can restore my cases? That’s how it started. But then as we progress, I’ve divil of discovery that she’s very good in her perio, in her surgery, as well as her restorative work. And she told me that she loves implants. So now we reach a point where literally we are pilot and co-pilot and we swap that sort of these roles. So sometimes we always do the consultation together. And by doing this, we brainstorm behind the scenes about the best treatment plan for that specific patient. When we do the surgery, we both there. Sometimes she places and I retract and other times I place and she retract. We do the GBR together, we do the soft tissue grafting together, and then we would continue restoring the case as a team. And people like people like it because as you said, somehow they feel safe. They feel comfortable having two dentists discussing the case and getting the best treatment plan for them. It’s a concept, you know, at the beginning, people say, why would you do that? And to be honest now, I highly encourage every single implant dentist to look into this. And this is what we do with Berendt Academy. Now, I encourage all my delegate. To see who is the nearest another bird graduates in their city and do the cases together because the margin of error or the risk of error becomes less and less and less, and it’s a win win for everyone.

[00:51:53] So let let me turn that right. I mean, I think it’s absolutely amazing. And, you know, if I was to get an implant placed in my head to have two highly experienced surgeons, two sets of eyes, two brains, you would just think you’ll get an exceptional value for money. Right. As well as feeling incredibly safe. Does it come at a higher cost than I would go and sort of pay for somebody else in Leeds, for example, to have an implant? I don’t know. We can have the whole conversation about value and everything like that. But let’s let’s treat it like a commodity for now. And I hate doing that. Yeah, that’s a good price.

[00:52:32] Should be higher than delegates for.

[00:52:35] Well, to be honest, Prav and pay. I’m not I’m not the cheapest employed dentist in Leaders. We we we look after our patients. We have special interest in cosmetic and dentistry and we spend good time in surgically managing the soft tissue and prosthetics, managing the soft tissue and getting things look as natural as possible. And because of that, you know, we like to spend good time with our patients. Were never interested in what the efficient implant industry or Quicken 23. Now we like to cook on a slow mode for things to work really well. Having said that, we do immediate loading. So don’t get me wrong, patients sometimes have their immediate loading done and I have special research and rather controlled trials on immediate loading. So I believe in the concept. But what I want to say will not ship. That’s number one. We are good and I’d like to think we are one of the best, but we’re not the cheapest. We’ve never put our prices up because there’s two dentists. I think we’re just more efficient between us to we work at 150 percent efficiency. So sometimes I will be working in one practise and Victoria would be working another practise like the restorative work. But the planning is always done together. And the surgery, we do it together. So if anything, if you want to ask me personally about my records, since my associate joined, my numbers went really doubled, if not tripled, because we are more efficient.

[00:54:20] So Hassan just has to put numbers to this single tooth implant in the back of the mouth, and then they’re going to say it varies from patient to patient and all the rest of it. Just give us a ballpark.

[00:54:31] Ok, I’m going to be honest the way I do it and will happy be happy to share this little tech. I was watching a panorama on BBC and it was to do how restaurants make money. OK. And that changed the way I sell obviously ethically to my patients. They they brought a plate and on that plate they had a bit of rice, beef, chicken salad, bowl of peas, and then went with this plate in the streets to people and say how much you would pay for this meal. And everyone was like 15, 18, 20 pounds. And then they went, they got a tray and a tapas system, like a little plate with rice, little plate with chicken little plate with the same content, but in small plates. And then they went to people say how much you would pay for this tray. And everyone was like five pounds per plate altogether. Five dishes. Twenty five pounds. So that sort of struck me in a way, you know what, you could offer better service and justify what you’re charging. And this is what we do now when we have whenever we want to present a treatment plan, we sort of break every little stage. If I was a patient, I would like to know what I’m paying for. So we do of planning. This will cost much study. Modern Surgical Guide. When it comes to implants, I go and I’m honest with my patients and say, do you know what implants. They’re just like cars. They come in different, makes different prices. And I go and say in the U.K. market there are more than two hundred and make having said that, to keep it easy for our patients, I tell them I’ve shortlisted three systems and I go and say there is a budget system and this will cost fifteen hundred and then there is a middle of the range system which is seventeen fifty, and there is a premium system which is two thousand.

[00:56:29] And then on top of that they will have to pay for the GB ah if needed the soft tissue graft if needed. And the final Quraan which we charge eleven hundred. So I get my patients to get involved in building the case and then them sort of knowing how much they’re paying and what for. And to be honest with a bit of education, I would tell you, ninety five percent of my patients come to me and say, give me the premium system. I don’t mind paying the extra five hundred for the premium system. It’s all about getting them involved. You know, one thing I’ve learnt in implant dentistry, new care, this is what I love about UK. It’s all about involving the patient in the whole journey. You know, I mentor and I mentor internationally as well. Not only in UK. I get invited to mentor in Dubai, the Middle East and sometimes in Croatia, Bulgaria, different countries. One thing I love about UK, the about involving patients in the treatment plan, and this is how it should be. So, yes, for a single molar crown, it can be around three thousand five hundred. For an interior, it can be five hundred. Depends on the case.

[00:57:49] And for me, the what I would look at is two levels rather than three levels. Because with three levels, people tend to go to war for the middle. And, you know, we get this in all sorts of areas and then street. But I like I like what you’re saying there. And how much of your work is actually placing and the clinical side, how much of it is research, how much of it is teaching and how much of it is pre covid travelling? Because I know you travel all over the world lecturing, right?

[00:58:22] Yes. I mean, this is what I used to do, pre covid and this is what I miss travelling and, you know, just meeting different people, learning from different people. Don’t get me wrong, I still attend courses. I make an effort every year to go at least one or two courses myself to learn. So this is very important. And this is you know, I feel it. It’s my responsibility as a teacher to learn more, to bring this knowledge from different countries to my delegates in Leaders or in the U.K. I would say at the moment or three covid, I would say 60 percent to 70 percent towards clinical work and 30 percent between teaching and research. Now, I think it’s the same because the only difference I’m teaching more in the UK compared to what I used to do before. So before I would teach 50 50 International you. Now, just as I said, we have to cohort’s with having more courses running. So covid helped bend. If anything covid made better the better academy so allowed me to focus more on Berridge Academy.

[00:59:42] Cozart, you have a tick account.

[00:59:45] No, you know my daughter has one.

[00:59:48] So you have Instagram.

[00:59:50] Yes, I have an Instagram and

[00:59:53] The social media and Yeoval.

[00:59:56] Oh yes. Social media is like a double edged sword for me. Social media, I have to be honest. Social media helped me a lot and helped Barrett a lot because literally, believe it or not, for the last two years, the the bird academy work tripled at very little marketing needed because thanks to social media, whenever and if the dentist’s girls say, I’m looking for an implant cause my delegates have the passion towards the cause, they go and start to write about the cause. And I people say, will we join your cause because we feel the passion from your graduates. It must be really good for them to write that. So social media helped me a lot. Having said that, social media did hurt me a few times. I know I am an opinionated person when it comes to implant dentistry. I’m a biology driven and dentists and I believe in certain things and I believe in research. And and I’ve noticed sometimes we have what we call now the University of Facebook, where people show things and mislead others. And I don’t like that. And sometimes I put my opinion and people don’t like it. Another thing, you know, sometimes, you know, as any other business, you will have some differences or some disagreements. And what happened over the years, more than one occasion where the other party decided to take their disagreement to social media and the problem with social media, it’s given a platform to people to write anything they want without being questioned. And obviously, it is a common mistake where people jump to conclusions. So, yeah, social media did hurt me a few times. But you know what? It taught me to have a broad shoulders be above it and not go down to the level and start sort of arguing and all that. And, yeah, you know, it’s it’s just so it’s a double edged sword for me.

[01:02:08] I said, let’s take this conversation to work life balance and just more about who are you, what do you do, what’s your typical day? What time do you wake up? What’s a typical week for you? You mentioned your daughter earlier. How does this all feature in in the busy life of a Olympian’s surgeon like yourself who’s teaching and running your clinics, et cetera, et cetera? Just tell us a little bit more about you.

[01:02:34] I’m a person who sleeps very little. I usually go to bed around midnight and wake up around half past 6:00 in the morning. So this is somewhat this what I’ve been doing for a long, long time. Wake up in the early morning and an idea of what I would do some work. I haven’t done any recently, but that’s what I would do. I have my little son when he’s eight and usually me and him are up before everyone else in the house. So this is our half an hour time or our one hour time where we spend time together either on his Lego or him showing me what he’s done on his YouTube channel or whatever. He’s very, very clever young boy. So this is one hour we spent together. And then obviously I go to work and I’m lucky because I have my associate. I don’t need to be there always like nine o’clock sharp. So sometimes, like today I’m going to be there at ten o’clock. It’s OK because I know my patients are safe with my associate, Victoria. I work till eight, maybe around seven.

[01:03:46] And then the evening I try my best to keep it from my family. And this is where things go wrong sometimes because, you know, by the time you want to read research or update the lectures, you know, I feel I’m not giving enough time to my family. And if you ask me one thing I regret and I want to change and improve is to give time to my family. I have two daughters as well. One of them is 18, doing her A-levels and another one is 15. The eleventh one is autistic. She DROs, she paints. She’s amazing. Lana and Janša, she’s into sports. She plays for netball, leads a netball Yorkshire. So I go and watch her playing a few times. So yeah, this is my family and obviously my wife who’s who’s an ex dentist. She made a decision not to practise and just focus on the family. And if it wasn’t for her, I wouldn’t be able to do what I’m doing. I’d like to think I’m balancing things, but I know I need to spend more time with the family husband.

[01:04:53] Tell me about a situation where this balance really came, was really, really loud to you in your mind or your head or whatever. I’ll give you an example and just see if it resonates with you. And it’s the for me, it was the social media side of things. Right. And I was I was watching TV with my daughter, but I wasn’t. And I had my phone in my hand. Yeah. And I was responding to a message that someone sent to me. And that message was so important that it was more important than watching TV with my daughter. At least that’s what I thought. And she touched the phone out of my hand and said to me, Daddy, put your phone away. And I said, 3:00 a.m. telling me that right at my house. Yeah. That’s when I realised actually what I was doing. And it’s a constant challenge trying to strike that balance when you’re running businesses, when you’re trying to provide a service and be responsive to people. Have you got any examples like that that you could share with those of similar episodes where where the work life balance is just sort of struck a chord?

[01:06:02] This is the painful part, is that, you know, we all are guilty, you know. Yeah, I would be having dinner with them. And, you know, people who know me very well, they tell me I’m addicted to my phone. And this is you know, it’s a disease. I think it’s a disease. I get my my best friend’s, my wife, my children. They tell me, Hassan, you’re addicted to your phone. And I would be having dinner. And without even me knowing or noticing, I would be checking my phone and just a couple of times my little own, he would hide the phone from me, literally hide it. So if I press my phone and then everyone would start laughing at me and say, oh, have you met your best friend or something like that? So you’re right. I think I think it is a big mistake and it’s something I’m still guilty of and I need to work hard on, you know, getting that balance right. But then. You know what I’m sure you share with me? We have this passion of giving and being great and doing this, you know, we’ve got energy inside us and that sometimes disturb the balance.

[01:07:21] And, you know, I struggle with that right a lot. And the counter argument is that there are times where that energy and that passion and everything needs to be directed to the people who will be there for you if you were ill and if you were in hospital or whatever that is, those people who would be there caring for you. And so I still do. I have techniques to to help me with it, but I often falter as well as it is some quite passionate about because I’m just like you, quite guilty of doing what you’ve just done.

[01:07:56] You think you don’t need to punish yourselves about this anywhere near as much as you are Prav Prav especially not punishing myself. Let me go. When you when you were a kid and you were having dinner with your dad around that table and he didn’t have a phone here, I’m sorry to have to break this to you now, Prav. He wasn’t one hundred percent thinking about you. Doesn’t have a phone call about other things to

[01:08:26] Somebody, you know,

[01:08:30] Listen to love.

[01:08:31] So let’s let’s blame it on technology and on the era. We’re living in

[01:08:35] An orderly manner and get through.

[01:08:41] And, you know,

[01:08:43] Guys, it’s.

[01:08:44] Yeah, yeah. No, no. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, you’re right. You’re right,

[01:08:48] Alhassan. It’s nice to hear from someone who’s so accomplished as you that you’ve made some mistakes and we’ve all made mistakes. But but on this show, we like to talk about the clinical errors and what other people can learn, what you learn from a clinical error and what obviously other people can learn from that. Can you think of.

[01:09:07] Yeah, I obviously we all majorettes, we wouldn’t be humans if we didn’t make errors. And, you know, one thing talking about the pilot co-pilot concept is all about, you know, what can we do to make it better for our patients? And I again, you know, if I want to take one, send one take home message to my friends and colleagues is please think about working as a team. It does help. It does help. You know, let’s put our egos down and think, you know, working as a team. One thing I really regret and it really hasn’t hurt me for a long time. I treated this lady. She was my number two patient in UK, in the private sector. And I had a mentor and I invited someone who I used to think he’s a great person because I was very young and he was very popular. I paid him from my own share as an as an associate to come and deal with me that Saturday. And I treated this lady. And now, you know, fifteen years on, I realised that that mentor was literally standing there doing nothing. I he sort of supervised my errors. I placed and put in the wrong direction a place in place to labial. And the patient ended with recession and with metal display. And it sucked because I thought I had my safety net behind my shoulder and I realised now that he didn’t do a good job.

[01:10:51] So that sort of, again, motivated me. When I accept to mentor someone, I take it there seriously. I’m there 100 percent as if this is my patient. And that’s what every mentor needs to do. You know, it it saddens me to see people claiming to be mentors when they’re not ready to be mentors. And when I say ready to be mentor, not only clinically, but you need to have the passion and the patience to be there as a teacher, which is harder than being just a clinician. So that’s something I would, you know, I would regret doing, not knowing the right people to teach me and learning and then teach me how to do things at the very beginning. Obviously, when it comes to implant dentistry pay, it’s very critical field. If you place your implant one millimetre to labial, the whole thing in a film and you’re going to get Middleville recession. So it makes or break the case, the correct positioning. It’s like dominoes effect. If the first block isn’t right, everything else would be wrong. So when it comes to applying dentistry, it’s all about plotting, planning, planning, planning and. Sharing that plan with your mentor, discussing double checking and having no ego, whenever you get ego playing, that’s when things go wrong.

[01:12:17] So, I mean, do you forgive me for not understanding things correctly, but in a surgical sense? Yeah. Does that when you when you when you use that, does that mean the placement now is taken care of?

[01:12:30] Well, provided the planning was done right. Surgical guide, if it’s surgically if it’s ready, graphically designed or digitally designed. Yeah. It’s literally a sleeve showing you where to put the implant as per your virtual planning.

[01:12:45] So I go

[01:12:47] And mentor people where virtually they plan things wrong. So the guy is going to show them I’ll make the place implants wrong. So so it’s all about the biology, the understanding and then sort of planning things. Right. And obviously decision making that implant dentistry. We can have a full hour talking about which bone graft material you need to use. Are we going to use the one which Facebook recommended or the one which evidence based research showing it works? And for what uses there is no one magic powder you could not use. You know, how do I know that this person isn’t a good employee, dentist or not? If I go and see that they have one bone graft material and one implement design in the cupboard, you know that this person has developed a proper knowledge in implant dentistry.

[01:13:45] It’s different levels, isn’t it? This is as you get to that higher level, you know, um, well, we like to end this on the same question every time as I know you’re pushed for time.

[01:13:59] Prav guy I get away with Passan.

[01:14:04] Imagine it’s your final day on the planet and you’ve got your you’ve got your kids around you and you need to leave them with three pieces of mentoring, advice, wisdom. Call it whatever you want. What would they be.

[01:14:21] Right. OK, my first one, and this is something I’ve been telling my daughter now who’s just turned 18 and my friends as well, you need to be the reason of your happiness. Never, ever allow anyone to be the reason of your happiness. Because the moment you start relying on other people for your happiness, this is when. You might get disappointed in life and then I’ve seen people getting too close to to giving up because they get disappointed by others. So you need to be number one reason for your happiness. That’s my first advice.

[01:15:06] Great advice. Great advice.

[01:15:09] Number two advice. Be humble and kind. You know, ego will do nothing other than just destroying you and making the nice people run away from you. So, you know, just no need for ego in this life. And number three, be an honest person, you know, just be an honest person. And it doesn’t cost much to be kind.

[01:15:38] Very nice.

[01:15:40] And how would you like to be remembered? So Hassan was and then complete the sentence. What would you like your legacy to be?

[01:15:52] Can I be honest with you, because I’ve been listening to your podcasts over the last few weeks and I have seen, you know, you always ask this question to people and, you know, different people give you different answers. Sure. But, you know what? Would it be bad if I say I don’t care?

[01:16:14] You can I can

[01:16:16] Say a lot of people will remember me. I don’t care how would people remembered me after I die, I would care more how people feel about me when I’m alive. This is what I want to do, you know, I think I think I want to be good to people now when I’m alive, I really don’t care what they think of me when I’m when I’m dead.

[01:16:42] And so I just you know,

[01:16:46] I just, you know,

[01:16:49] I like that. So while you’re here, what would you like people to see?

[01:16:58] I like them to know and I like them, I like them, you know, I like them to know that everything I do is out of passion, of honesty and out of kindness. I mean, sometimes I’m human and, you know, I do errors. I never aim to upset another person. I never aim to fall out with another person. People fall out with me for stupid reasons, and I reach out and say, listen, it’s not worth it. But then their egos top them, you know, accepting that I’m really you know, I really don’t want to fall out with people. I don’t want to upset people. Life is too short to worry about that. I think we should all be happy and kind to each other.

[01:17:50] Oh, lovely hustle. And I don’t think that resonates with these three pieces of advice that you’d give out. Right. Is that is that’s pretty much how you live your life and want to want to be known. Now, imagine you have 30 days left and you had your health and everything in sight for those 30 days. How would you spend it?

[01:18:12] I would spend them with the people I care about and the people who care about me the most, my mom, my dad, my family and my best friends. I would I would be happy, I, I would do everything to make them happy and just enjoy life, I might do one or two lectures because I love lecturing. When I do this as I am, I do this one last implant case because I enjoy my clinical implant dentistry

[01:18:47] And I like that.

[01:18:50] But I know what I would have my fun with me as well because I’m still addicted.

[01:18:57] Need to have some beautiful eyes and thank you so much for your time. It’s been incredibly insightful, not just not just on the personal level, but also the unique way you do things. Right. And the bits of knowledge you’ve just shared with us today, I think would be very useful for anyone listening. So thank you. Thank you.

[01:19:15] So thank you. It’s a great privilege to be here with you. And thank you so much for the kind invitation. It means a lot. Thank you so much.

[01:19:22] Thank you very much.

[01:19:25] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders on the street.

[01:19:36] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:19:41] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:19:56] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:20:06] And don’t forget our six star rating.

Expanding your business empire by three times is no mean feat. But, that’s just what this week’s guests did – and then some.

We’re happy to welcome Dr Kish Patel and Dr Jin Vaghela as they share their valuable insight on successfully going into business as best friends and running not one, not two, but 12 practices.

Kish and Jin discuss their achievements in dentistry as well as their passion for growth. The Londoners also tell us about their journey from university parties to creating a harmonious work/life balance.



“The thing is, with a lot of young dentists, they sometimes want to get on the practice ladder just to have that practice underneath their belt and say, I own practice. We’re trying to try to help spread the knowledge and say, look, guys, your why has to be really, really on point when you’re buying a practice. You have to do it for the right reasons.” – Kish Patel


In This Episode


01.03 – DJing and free rides

02:15 – Choosing dentistry

05.04 – The game plan

05.56 – Results day

08:27 – Parental Advice

10:23 – Mentors

11:39 – We keep growing

13:53 – Buying a practice

17:20 – Approaching business together

18:31 – Strengths & skillsets

24:07 – Caring for your team

26:09 – Expanding

28:33 – Opportunities in a pandemic

32:49 – Stress management

35:33 – Recharging

37:52 – A day in the life

44:00 – Networks

49:30 – Educating dentists

51:28 – Marketing

55:26 – Symposiums

58:52 – Having confidence

01:01:57 – Forging relationships

01:09:00 – Three pieces of wisdom

01:10:33 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Kish Patel and Jin Vaghela


Kish and Jin both qualified from Guys Kings, London in 2007. The pair met on their first day of university and went into business together from an early point in their careers. Together, the pair now own Smile Clinic Group which currently boasts 12 practices.

Kish is a member of the Faculty of Dental Surgeons at the Royal College of Surgeons of England and works in General Practice.

Jin holds a fellowship of the Higher Education Authority, membership of the Dental Faculty of Dental Surgery at the Royal College of Surgeons Edinburgh as well as membership of the Joint Dental Faculties of Dental Surgery at the Royal College of Surgeons England.

[00:00:00] The thing is, with a lot of these a lot of young dentists, they sort of sometimes want to get on the practise ladder just to have that sort of practise underneath the belt and just say, I own a practise and we’re trying to try to help spread the knowledge and say, look, guys, it’s about you have to your wife has to be really, really on point when you’re buying a practise. You have to do it for the right reasons. And, you know, I’ve I’ve had a lot of friends who bought practises and paid a lot of money for practises and are sort of in those practises six days a week, eight to eight, you know, and struggling. So one thing we say is, look, we’re here will help mentor you. Be that just for advice or if you want to come on board, come on board. Because we like doing things with the people together. We will go on a journey. Everyone grows at the same time.

[00:00:46] This is Dental Leaders podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders and dentistry. Your heist’s Payman Langroudi, I’m Prav Solanki,

[00:01:03] It gives me great pleasure to introduce the founders of the Smile Dental Academy on the small clinic group Djenne Encash. We originally thought you two were brothers, but just correctors. Who’s involved in this group? How did this relationship start? Mioshi BackStory. Fantastic. Thank you. To pay Prav for the invitation. This is something which have been planning for over a year now and it’s kind of nice to get together, even though it’s virtual to catch up. And again, the whole small group of small Academi side near the university where I met K’iche So you might as well be my brother. The amount of time you spent at my house in Camden and the three of us and most of myself and my real brother, three of us involved in the whole group itself.

[00:01:45] Yeah, that’s right. So myself and Jin met on the very first day of university back at King’s College, London, nearly 18 years ago, and he was pretty much the first person I met within a minute. You know, Jin Jin can talk, he can talk a lot. And within a minute he told me that he is a DJ and that he does not drink. So I was like, listen, I’m about to embark on my university life. This guy can get me into all the clubs I’ve got guaranteed right home as well. So, you know,

[00:02:15] We kind of hit it off. Right? That’s funny, because I met my partner on the first day of university as well. So thirty years ago, time flies, but so where did you grow up?

[00:02:29] So I grew up in central London, in Camden and spent all my life in London. And K’iche was in northwest London.

[00:02:35] Yeah. So since I have been there my whole life

[00:02:40] And it’s the first time you thought I would be a dentist.

[00:02:45] I actually do. I mean, back when I was applying for university and thinking of what did you career wise, we had a dentist to does love in Camden and every day, every time you drop in a new car and all energy and bouncing around. So I went to work experience with it and absolutely loved general practise and what he was doing. I actually love the fact, you know, the variety of stuff you could do. And that’s that’s where it hit me. Look, I thought let’s combine the whole art side, which I loved the creativity with the science side, which is instil in Asian community. And I went on the journey of let’s apply for dentistry. That’s how it started for me. Was there any parental pressure in there that, you know, going into medicine, dentistry or accountancy mean for my dad? It was you know, it was better. You could be one of three things I got without it. He goes, you could be a dentist, doctor or a failure. And I’m like, all I appreciate that, but let’s pick the right one before he beats me. But again, I mean, look, as we all know, in the age of many parents of pharmacists and there was a lot of, you know, sciences and that kind of pressure when we side up and not education, which which which is sort of help me keep focus growing up in Camden kept me away from any wrong crowd as well. And that was for myself.

[00:04:09] Yeah, but it’s similar to, you know, my parents, pharmacists as well. And I think back then it was the case of, you know, look, you’re going to either go into some sort of medicine, pharmacy or dentistry or you’re going to have an accounting background finance. So I was just going up between the two. And, you know, I remember this very clearly. I had a conversation with my cousin, who’s about four years older than me, going through a similar process. He ended up going to the pharmacy and he goes, look, you’re very good with sciences, you’re good with maths. You’re also very artistic. I think dentistry is the right career for you because, you know, once you qualify as a dentist, there’s a whole world of opportunity, not just being a clinician, but also, you know, going through in terms of business teaching. There’s a whole variety of stuff you can do. And I remember that very, very clearly. So I have him to thank for sort of guiding me through that time

[00:05:04] Was always was always that sort of you just talked about business teaching. All of that was that was that very early on part of your game plan. It wasn’t just something that came about. You knew when you were going into dentistry. I’m going to teach. I’m not my own practise and this is going to be my career. You didn’t just think I’m going to be an NHS dentist.

[00:05:25] Not 100 percent. I think we always like to look at the sort of the the biggest picture possible and try and dream as much as you can to sort of achieve as much as you can. And whilst being a being a clinician is a great achievement in itself, you know, I like to sort of diversify. And again, it’s exactly the same. And that’s why we sort of hit it off so well, because our visions are aligned right from the beginning as to where we saw our careers going.

[00:05:51] When did you decide to do business with each other? Was it literally before qualifying?

[00:05:56] So we looked at was a first car. I mean, I sat next to my two group competed as often as well like you. And we I think our journey started with a whole small clinic group of small Academi when we failed. So a lot of people probably don’t know we actually failed our finals and the story I remember on the final day when the results come out at King’s College, those, you know, New Hampshire house, they used to display all the results on the board and in all you this about over two hundred and twenty of us in our yard kings. And in the morning when you get the results all excited. And then I’m looking for my name on the board and I can see it. I could hear someone down the hall call out, Jingjing, come over here, you name it down here. And I thought maybe I made the distinction. Water owners, little did I know the feeling. And I’m finding that I mean, those you know, me from uni, I did used to party law, you know, four nights a week. So me not getting through finally year was probably expected, even though I did work hard. But Keisha’s name was a shock and he always dragged him down. But seeing his name on the show. So it was one

[00:07:11] Of those things on the vacation, you know, is one of those things, I think, you know, you go through something like that and it was it was a big shock. You know, you kind of always expect to just get through the last hurdle. And, you know, you see a lot of your friends graduating and qualifying and then you don’t. But the fact that something felt together, you know, I think I believe it very, very firm. Believe everything happens for a reason. And I think that’s when we sort of sat down and had to re-evaluate and sort of say, look, how are we going to play this and what can we make of it, considering we were set back by six months,

[00:07:47] Just taken taking us back to that day. You saw your name on the board, both of you together. Did you feel like you had to sort of go back and report back to your folks? What was the. Was that a daunting experience in itself? Just just talk us through what was going through your mind at that time, from the moment you got it? What was the first thing that went through through your head? For me, if I failed an exam and had to go back and tell my dad, I mean, look, if I got 97 percent in my maths test, my dad did say what happened to the other three Prav?

[00:08:18] You cannot afford an exam, so you don’t need to worry about it. Tell us, what did you say to your parents? What was the first thing happen?

[00:08:27] Well, I remember quite vividly just getting on the phone and say I just said to my my parents said, look, it’s not good news. I didn’t I didn’t make it. My my mom and dad were when I say we’re really, really shocked because I’ve never felt a single exam during my whole university life and they said something must have gone wrong. I said, listen, this is this is this I didn’t I didn’t make it. So I’m going to be here for another six months. And to be honest, fair play to my parents and my grandparents at the time. You know, I remember very vividly sitting down with them and all that said, listen, this is just a minor setback. You have your whole life ahead of you in life. You’re going to be there’s going to be failures. Not everything is going to go to plan. It’s how you adapt and change and take on that situation that will help you grow. And I remember my grandma said this to me, and it was it was probably the best bit of advice that someone could hear at that point in time because it automatically just lifted me up, made me feel a lot stronger. And I realised that, you know, that’s not that’s not the be all and end all.

[00:09:33] So you did qualify eventually. What happened next? Did you did you end up getting a house job? That’s what I did. It was like a consolation prise in in Cardiff. I mean,

[00:09:45] I think Keesha job lined up. Yeah. If he actually had passed, if both of us would have passed, I don’t think any of this would have been here in our small clinic group, Small Dental Academy, the whole network in the small dream we’ve created, none of it would have been here because Keisha was about to embark on a house job like you pay. Whereabouts was.

[00:10:06] That was up in Elsberry. It was one of the old DPT schemes, so it was a two year, one year community and then another house job. And, you know, I think we would most of them, June would have been a very different pathways if I had gone to plan.

[00:10:20] So then what did you do first? Did you do that?

[00:10:23] Yes. So we were we ended up on the bonus scheme with a great adviser and some great mentors. And fortunately, myself and Jane were placed in two practises with incredible mentors that helped sort of shape our career going forward, you know, and I’m still I still work at that same practise even to this day

[00:10:44] For you both that practise. No, no. Not one to hold the call about who the mentors. And it was the adviser.

[00:10:54] Yes. So I mentor Samir Khan, who again, without him as a mentor, I wouldn’t be here now and again. Look, if I if I pass first time back then, we had our jobs lined up. We had to send our service to every practise. I get a decent job lined up in London, lost. Then I have to do the speed dating, a way of applying for PhD training and ended up in Somalia as practised in North London. By far. The best thing that ever happened to me ever and to me was my trainer and Davinder pal CUNA was our TPD or advisor and again, great mentors, very good friends, and still to this day, helping us, supporting us through our journey as well.

[00:11:36] What were the key lessons you learnt from him?

[00:11:39] The key lessons I learnt was we continue growing, the main advice I gave me was invest in yourself and invest in yourself as a Ph.D. I wasn’t too fast about doing further exams back then or doing a PDF. And you could invest in yourself because that is something which no one can take away from you. And since then, every including some courses continue growing, whether it’s UK, US is competing courses and building up our education. And I think that’s been a phenomenal thing things to us, especially with kishkes mentor as well.

[00:12:14] Yeah, so my mentor, Niccola, go again right from the outset, she shaped my career. She was like, hey, look, you know, you’re going to be working on the NHS. You’re going to be doing private work. One of the most important things that she taught me very early on was, you know, treat your patients the same, whether the NHS private, give everyone the same amount of time. Because, you know, I think that’s that’s sort of something that’s not done in practise as much as it should be. And, you know, you speak to patients, treat them as people. You’re not just focussing upon the teeth. And again, as you said, similar to, you know, Nicola was great in terms of pushing me, saying invest in yourself, keep growing as a clinician, but also explore other opportunities. And one of the most important things for me is that she’s just got an incredible energy, always smiling no matter what happens in life.

[00:13:07] I know she’s a

[00:13:09] She’s got a great energy and positive person. Very, very positive. And that’s one of the most important things that I picked up from her. Just always remain positive no matter what happens.

[00:13:18] I know that you guys now you guys include a bunch dentists and so on. Do you feel like you’re having that down to them or is that something that’s part of your group? Like to get all the people educated, your own people educated properly?

[00:13:32] One hundred percent. That is the main ethos. And main culture we’re trying to create within our group is continue growing. And that’s not exactly the whole academy for AIDS and how we can growing the small group as well with our clinicians.

[00:13:47] That was the first time you put a practise.

[00:13:53] So during my FDA, I means to me was quite instrumental. Show me, you know, the right path and how to grow. And this to me, I used to own a couple of practises used to teach law, was doing a master’s, and I thought, I like this. It’s a nice mix. I like general practise. So let’s see what we can do. So in my FDA, we start viewing practises. So we see Phoenicia VTE study days on a Friday, Saturday night viewings booked in. And I bought my first practise six months after F.T. training with them at six months off their three year old together. Or was that that was the first one I bought with Sowmya and my partner in crime. Had we both got together, three of us. And I know a lot of people thinking you must have known your staff and know your numbers and finances are. But clearly, the bank manager came to the practise to sign the paperwork. Möbius, you walked in a three sits down and Richard goes to be so Geneina what kind of rate you want, variable or fixed? And I genuinely looked at it. I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Where do I sign? And again, it was one of those things I any opportunity that I just grabbed it and I was fortunate. I had the right support from the right mentors and just grew on the job.

[00:15:15] Did you get involved?

[00:15:16] Yes, so similar to Gene, I was looking at practises during my FDA, again, as Jim said, like viewing on Friday evening, Saturday, Sundays, and then I speak to Jim Clancy. I knew that this was going through in the background, that we were just talking and we said, look, we should just buy one together. And then a couple of years later, the right opportunity came along and that was in Harro and we ended up buying that one. But again, it took us a little while, just before the right one came along, because it wasn’t just a case of there were so many practises not for sale and it was just picking the right opportunity at the right time.

[00:15:49] What were you looking for, guys? I think that we were quite clear we didn’t want to practise for the sake of having a practise and Prav an umpire, both of rum practise in Paso, the are running them. You want to make sure it makes sense. Now, that means it fits in with your vision of how you want to grow. We used to view practises, beautiful practises that just didn’t fit in with our model of what we’re planning. Some that were made no financial sense. I mean, I might as well open up a corner shop and do that would have been more money. So we had a clear vision how we wanted to grow the practise side and even then the NHS. I played a big role. I mean, we always just a mission. We wanted to grow that side. So that’s what we’re looking at when we first started. And I still remember calling cash up when the Harrow practise came along and I said, look, I’m going into business with your friend and your best friend is something which I would be cautious with. But those, you know, myself and our personalities are like total opposite. And it’s a bit like a yin and yang where Kishwar along and we saw fit so well together. Touchwood Till this day, it’s been the best decision ever. Working together. Yeah.

[00:17:03] Yeah. I totally agree with I think that we had that we had that conversation. I remember it quite clearly and we said, look, this is we’re going into business, but we’re best mates. We do not want this ever to sort of be an issue going forward. And we have very clear sort of open air talks about it all and said, look, we’re going to do this journey. But the most important thing is not about the money. It never has been. It’s about it’s about the journey. It’s about having fun along the way and just trying to be the best that we can be and trying to grow as much as possible. And I don’t think we were so aligned in our vision. We still are that that has been has been just a blessing and it’s been a great journey so far.

[00:17:40] I get asked quite often, you know, June one, you by the practises yourself, why do you do yourself? I’m like a I wouldn’t be here probably myself. No offence, you boys probably wouldn’t have as much hay on my head.

[00:17:52] But the journey

[00:17:55] Has been fun and it’s been jokes. And the thing is doing the journey with your best man, your brother along the way. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not plain sailing all the way, but doing it in a team is where the support’s been. And we can manage our stress levels because we all know, look, Dental Street is super stressful doing in a team of us. We can actually delegate well and grow even more as three business partners. What are your strengths? So like, let’s say in your unique abilities, whatever case yours is in your brothers, what roles do you play differently? Where you play to your strengths is just good. I mean, my main role is growth. I got the energy and I want to see things grow. So I’m pretty much involved with the growth side of the business acquisitions growth internally within the business where my weaknesses, I am not very good at the detail of the finance side, and that’s where cash comes in, making sure the finance side we are on point and making sure it’s all taken over. And then my brother is the best, making sure the whole operation side is working on a daily basis. So my I’m always thinking three steps ahead, looking too far. And then I’m like, OK, we need someone who’s focussing on what’s going on currently. And this is where in a nice way, all three of us come really well together and support each other. So we never feel like we’re trading on each other’s toes, but we literally are filling in the gaps within each other.

[00:19:20] Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with that. I think, again, it’s a case of we all could have kind of understood what our skill sets were and are and and how we can sort of help grow the group in the academy together. And as Jim said, you know, he’s always thinking three to four steps ahead. His head sometimes is focussing on about a thousand different things to sometimes someone’s got to bring him back down and say, listen, listen, we’ve we’re going to focus on this and do this and do that. And I think that’s where this relationship works really, really well, because when all three of us are together, we’re we’re unstoppable. You know, it’s it’s just it’s a force that we you know, we’re going to keep growing. And it’s just fun as well, because we’re not as Jim said, we’re not treading on each other’s toes. And who’s got an incredible ability to sort of manage to the day to day the finer details is, you know, without him, I think pretty much his whole operation would fall apart.

[00:20:14] So these practises, how many of Dental

[00:20:17] We’re on, ten about to complete our 11th and 12th one now.

[00:20:22] These 12 practises, would you say that they’re all similar to each other?

[00:20:28] No, I would say that it’s a mixed bag. I mean, initially, you know, we were we bought a few NHS heavy practises as the group has grown and we’ve got a mixed bag now. So we’ve got mixed practises, fully private practises, one practise that essentially is similar to a squat practise. So this is a mixture.

[00:20:47] And I think when we first started, our vision was, yeah, let’s make every practise feel the same. Look the same will we soon realised is the culture and each practise is values. And then how it all works is totally different. I mean, one of our practises in Felixstowe will never be the same as a practise in Harrow as opposed to practise in Norwich. So what we’ve done is sort of OK, we know what we want from our teams. We know what kind of stuff we want for our patients in terms of care and high quality of care. But we need to adapt that within each site as well. And then some of our practises, you know, we’ve got one of our sites, over 60 members of staff. Now, again, within that is like a little micro community, which you need to manage so you can never make everything the same. And that was one of the things we’re quite conscious about. And hence this whole small clinic group name how it started. We never wanted to lose the practise his original name. So when we took a practise on one of the large ones will staff a large Dental group. I never wanted to go in and make your case a small clinical practise. I wanted to retain that staff a lodge name, wanted to retain the history behind it so patients don’t lose that connexion with the history and the staff there. So we could name the staff a small clinic and that’s how the whole thing started off. It’s a bit of fresh and a bit of the old as well.

[00:22:10] Yeah, I mean, one thing we never do is we never go in and just sort of wipe the slate clean and practise and put our own stamp on it straight away. I think the most important thing is that sometimes when you buy a business in a practise, it is very tempting to almost treat it as a business right off the bat. But what you said, what you don’t realise is that there is a community there and that community is is is so important and we have to nurture and grow a culture within that community and sort of help it help it grow to where our vision is. And so that’s one of the most important things for us, is to retain each practise has its own identity. Even though it’s part of the group, it’s still got its own identity.

[00:22:53] So I’m interested to find out what’s the sort of I guess you’re looking for practise undervalued, you know, compared to what you think you can get out of it. Right. You’re talking about growth. Yeah. So that’s one one aspect. But I mean, but on the other side, you’re talking about the evolution of it rather than revolution, right? You don’t go in there and start changing everything, which makes a lot of sense, which is supersmart. I completely get that. But what is your sort of degree of involvement? How what’s the structure of the place? You’ve got a practise manager, I guess. And then what is it, one of you, or is there like another person before you guys?

[00:23:35] That’s a good question. I mean, if you asked us a year ago how many of your lordship

[00:23:44] For last year, this time last year for

[00:23:46] So we’ve had tremendous growth in the last year with that. And the beauty is with the whole business side, we work quite closely and we’re good friends. You’ve got large corporates who was advising us of how to deal with it. And the biggest struggle is making sure you’ve got the right team. And I think that’s one of the most important things. So we made sure, you know, we’ve got every such practise manager. We’ve got our obsoleted my brother who looks after it. And then we’ve got two younger dentists who we’ve taken on board who are, you know, without them, again, the support they’ve given us and the growth aspect is supporting us on the operations. None of this would function. So we’ve grown a whole subletter, our team with the marketing finance. So we can also you can earn Smash-Up.

[00:24:31] And I remember I remember speaking to Gin Gin. It was March last year. Right. Just as we picked up as a fourth practise. And I said to listen, we’re going to have to grow the team because myself, there’s no way that if we’re going to buy normal practises that will be able to sustain this. You know, there’s only so many hours in the day and we can only be in so many places at one time between the three of us. So we just took a view that we have to keep growing the team. And one thing that we built within each practise is layers so that there is a sort of a chain of communication all the way right through from reception, all the way through to us. And even though that there’s all those layers that everyone has our number, we’re always we’ve got loads of WhatsApp groups with each practise so that any issues, you know, we’re still seeing it. We have that to help and support the whole team. Even though we went from four to ten practises and everything we kind of put into place was when we had a small number of practises so that we could just then apply that as we grow in size.

[00:25:32] What were the growing pains going from, let’s say, for. To tell, right, most going from one to two, you know, I remember, you know, you look at practise one and you think, well, just go and buy practise, too, and I’ll just do double what I’m doing. Right. Just replicate that formula if you go and then you get the biggest shock of your life when you realise that isn’t the case, and then you go to three and so on and so forth. What were the biggest pains that you guys experience going from, let’s say before that you had in the space of the covid pandemic, almost tripling the size of your business? There must have been some some serious growing pains during that time.

[00:26:09] I think there’s a very, very good question, and I think the hardest thing for us, especially breathing during the covid sort of period, is not being able to go physically to the sites. And I think that we’re very hands on in that respect. And I think generally agree with me when I say this is that one of the practises we bought was a fairly private practise was literally we completed one week before Lockton. And we had plans to go up, but they didn’t materialise because of lockdown and obviously we couldn’t meet the team and we could do whatever we do on Zoom. But back then, everyone was still getting a feel for Zoom. And it’s just not the same feeling as going in and sort of having that team meeting, that practise meeting to introduce ourselves what we’re about. So I think that was probably one of the hardest things, not being able to physically be there initially.

[00:26:59] But I just miss giving everyone hugs.

[00:27:02] No, you see, I mean, we

[00:27:09] Were a bit old school and I like, you know, face to face and people feel that energy and vibe when you were there. And when you’re growing to a certain size, you can’t be at every practise. I mean, you can’t clone yourself and go there and do it. So trying to put in structures and processes in place where everyone knows you are there and approachable, but they don’t feel like, you know, going into the practise, that’s things something know, we struggle with along with time, trying to make time to juggle all this and also balance everything with home life, wife, life, kids, everything as well, which for myself, in case the balance of life is super important, I think trying to keep that all in place,

[00:27:50] I, I don’t I’m not I’m not currently running any Dental practises yet. So the three of you can help me with this year. But this isn’t it better to take your four practises and double the output of those four to eight.

[00:28:05] Yeah, yeah. I think you’re right. One of the things which make a good point and I would say is it’s about focussing on making sure your bottom line or your EBITDA net profit is increasing. And that’s one thing we’re quite conscious with, making sure each practises output is increasing. But on the flipside, if a good opportunity comes along, we’re going to take it. And that’s how is a balance of both.

[00:28:31] And again, I totally agree with you pay. I mean, we and so we had four practises for about eight years. So it was one of those things where we really sort of delve straight into all of those practises and, you know, try to make them as efficient and profitable as Jim said, in terms of the bottom line, as much as possible. And only once you’ve sort of been able to do that, that’s when you then feel like finally you’re ready for the next the next step, which is exactly what we decided to do.

[00:29:00] Did you find the pandemic presented opportunities? Lots of opportunities that will happen.

[00:29:06] Yeah, did make it was a super difficult time for all of us. I think the first three or four months and uncertainty and CDO business, whatever happened. But I think once it all kicked in, a lot of the dentists who were already considering retirement coming out of the whole practise. So they just sort of done, you know, secrecy was one issue. And it’s just another issue now is covered. We’re back in. So we sort of thought, look, this opportunity, if we want to grow and the right practise come along, let’s get in there, view them. And that’s what we did, I think you presented. And it still is preventing a lot of opportunity on the practise side because a lot of practise is still up for sale and people wanted to move and shift within the market because when when covid hit and then a few weeks later, the practise is sure. And you said you completed just before on the practise, on the private practise and then shortly after assuming you shut the doors. Yes, I most of that must have been a shocker. Right. And I remember sitting there talking to my co owners of the practise and thinking, holy crap, what the hell are we going to do? How long are we going to be show? Fear just kicks in. Right. And I use. Are you telling me that actually you look at you you when that happened, you guys sat back and thought, right. What can we do during this time? How can we grow? And you essentially triple your business in that time, right? Well, just tell me just talk me through the little conversations you guys were having at that time, because we without putting too fine a point on it, we were crapping ourselves.

[00:30:44] We were the same. I remember that very, very, very vividly speaking to June twenty third of March last year, and we were shut down and meet him just on the phone while Boris Johnson was announcing it. And we was like, right, what are we going to do? And I think, you know, again, we were very fortunate in terms of that practise. In particular Prav the old owners really, really stepped up. And whilst they had sort of, you know, sold the business, they came to the fore and sort of, you know, kind of took the team on board and said, look, we’re here. And they were very, very helpful in terms of guiding the practise during that time, considering that they sold it. But again, at the same time, I remember speaking to Jim and saying, look, you know, this is a very difficult and challenging time for all, but we’ve got to try and make sure two things. One is that we make sure that we look after our staff, which is the most important thing, and our patients. So whatever decisions we make is with their best interests at heart. And at the same time, we’ve got to look forward. Look, take it as an opportunity to sort of look at our business and see how we can modify it, how we can make it better. And if there is an opportunity to grow, if there are opportunities which came along later on, then we we will take those opportunities, but only once we have fully looked after our staff and our patients first.

[00:32:07] Yeah, that was the biggest stress on being spoken with, like. If we got no income coming in, how are we going to pay our staff and I was just passing reference to the families, I’m thinking of their families, kids, bills and stuff. That’s the main stress we had. So I think we’re quite fortunate the way, you know, the furlough scheme and the NHS, I was dealt with, it helped us out. But that was a stress education. The main thing, their life, they stay healthy, their life. Let’s not get too complacent with this covid. And so, Jane, you mentioned earlier about the both of you the balance of work life, family health is super important to both of you. Just talk me through that and how you how you how you manage that with not just the dozen or so practises you’ve got, but with the whole teaching academy and all the rest of it. How do you make that divide? And sort of for me, the hardest thing is being present, right? Because there’s always something going on. And, you know, my little girls want daddy and they don’t care about what’s going on in the business. Right. And the one hundred percent daddy in the room and being present is probably one of the things that I would say I struggle with the most and I make a conscious effort of doing that right.

[00:33:27] And putting things in place to make sure I am present. Just talk me through how you guys make times without that balance. And if you employ any strategies or anything to to bring that old into line, I think I think with what’s happened within our own lives from a young age, the whole practises and academy money was never part of it. And that’s just one of the key things for myself. Missing my brother is never been about money. Money will come if you do things right. And I think from our upbringing, I mean, my parents worked hard and it’s a very traditional Asian community, probably the same. Would you pay as well where they were thinking one day will retire, will enjoy life. And then at the age of 50, my dad’s kidneys went and the kidney transplant mom ended up donating a kidney to I just watching his life and our parents life. And look, we wouldn’t be here without the sacrifices. I mean, we can’t even compare our lives compared to their lives and what they went through. But seeing how they dealt with what happened, I’m like, look, I’m not going to save my energy and save up for one day when I’m 50, 60 to enjoy it. My thing is keep the balance right now in the present. So that means work hard now, but play harder right now as well.

[00:34:42] And that’s something which we’ve sort of instilled within our practises and within the academy. We make sure we’re sending that message where, you know, work hard, but make sure you join life, make sure you’re playing harder. And at the moment, none of us guys are playing hard. I now is a no going out, but you’ve got to make sure you’re enjoying life and making sure your hobbies, whether it be, you know, musical instruments, music for myself or hitting the gym, make sure you get your timing yourself. So one of the things for myself is for me to give energy off to kids and family. I need to be a bit more selfish first, which means I need to be 100 percent recharge 100 percent. Then I can give my energy to other people like a power bank, because what I find is in my family, you know, the three kids, wife, my parents, a lot of you know of the practise are a lot of people want energy. So I need to be one hundred percent before I can give that out. So that means I need to have systems and processes within my day to make sure I get my and I make sure I get my time out my gym time. And I think she’s is very similar. And even he went through a bigger transformation compared to me as well.

[00:35:53] Yeah, I could not agree more. I think that having that time to yourself is hugely important. And as Jim said, so I was I was bordering on one hundred and two CG about five years ago, and I remember this very vividly. I was taking money out of

[00:36:09] Five dollars that was wasn’t pure mask.

[00:36:12] That was a disqualification. But you.

[00:36:21] But look, I was carrying my six month old daughter up the stairs, and that’s when I go out of breath and I said, I can’t live like this. I’ve got to be around for them. I’ve got to give 100 percent, 200 percent to my family. So I went through a whole sort of physical transformation, a physical process, got my training on putting on my diet on point. But that process allowed me to Solanki gave me more structure to life. They sort of gave me the ability to say, look, I can create time, make time for things that are important. And it just sort of helps not only physically, but helped mentally as well. And I think that was a huge thing and sort of making that time for yourself. Sometimes you have to be a little bit selfish in the sense you’ve got to make time for yourself first so that then you can then give that time one hundred percent to others. And that was a huge part of it. And training is still still a huge part of that work life balance for us.

[00:37:13] What does your week look like? Do you still practise dentistry?

[00:37:18] Yes. One of the things we look we’re passionate clinicians. We’ve done a lot of stuff academically as well. So one of the things you want to make sure is to an extent, we continue the clinical and that way we relate to our workforce. So we both do work one day a week at the moment. Currently, the rest of the week is a mixture of teaching and predominantly a management of the practises going through things. That’s pretty much the whole week.

[00:37:44] Yeah. And again, that’s only been possible, though, because we invested very heavily in ourselves as clinicians over the past 13 years, both myself and done master’s in restorative dentistry, done a lot of postgraduate courses, not only in education, but in sort of aesthetic dentistry as well. And that’s allowed us to sort of maintain a level of income as a clinician, but on a like a reduced time frame during the week, because at the moment, neither of us, we don’t draw any sort of wages from the practises. Everything is reinvested in the practise to help the practises grow. So all of our sort of personal earnings go go on our personal life, kids, family life.

[00:38:26] So we have no says what? 13 years ago you finished university. That was 2007. It’s admirable, man, so thoughtful from the practise side was vision.

[00:38:41] The vision is to grow. Yeah, we’ve got to grow. We want to hit about 40 practises in the next few years. Which we’re going to continue. They always say when you dream big, so we dream big, or at least I do, I think it gets a bit more scary, like you come back to Earth and I know we’re going to go for it. Let’s continue on the stage.

[00:39:05] And that’s the beauty of it. Right. So like we said, 40 practises. But again, at the same time, it’s got to be grown in the right way. We’re not just going to buy practises for the sake of buying practises. We only buy practises where the ethos of the seller fits with our ethos in terms of, you know, patients will always come first and their quality of care has to be to the highest of standards. We’ve actually pulled out deals where, you know, the our ethos hasn’t aligned with the seller. I lost quite a lot of money on it. At the end of the day, you know, we want to make sure that when we take over practises, everything is in a similar sort of fashion as to how we would operate it, because, you know, a lot of the sellers still stay on with us. And I think that’s the most important thing. So whilst we have that vision of, you know, 40 practises in the next four years, it’s going to be grown in the right way with all of our practises. Put that patients first

[00:39:55] And you look looking for particular geography or you think in UK, why do you focus on a certain area at the moment? So currently, I mean, all the practises of Southeast London, Suffolk, Essex, Norfolk, Oxfordshire, now we are expanding, going north as well, looking at Birmingham, Midlands, what’s happened in the last, you know, of the young Dental is approaching us saying, look, guys, we really want to buy a practise. Can you support us? Can we get involved? And so that’s something which we’ve now taken on board. Like, I wouldn’t be here without Simeon helping me on my first practise. So one of the things we’ve done quite important is we are open to taking on partners, on board supporting even if someone wants to buy a practise. We recently did a clubhouse talk with a couple of people and we had over one hundred and fifty people in the room. One of the girls was looking to buy a practise. She goes, Guys, you know, can you mentor me looking to buy a practise? I’ll pay for it. I said, Look, I’ll help you more than happy to help you out the next week on the phone to her. And she’s looking to buy a practise. I think it was it was

[00:40:55] It was a story that was thoroughly

[00:40:57] And will help you out, because we’ve learnt a lot of stuff. We’ve made a lot of mistakes. We’ve lost some money as well. Some money comes and goes. I want to make sure everyone learns of each other and they don’t make the same mistakes we did as well.

[00:41:10] So the thing is, with a lot a lot of young dentists, they of sometimes want to get on the practise ladder just to have that sort of practise underneath the belt and just say, I own a practise and we’re trying to try to help spread the knowledge and say, look, guys, it’s about you have to your wife has to be really, really on point. When you’re buying a practise, you have to do it for the right reasons. And, you know, I’ve I’ve had a lot of friends who’ve bought practises and paid a lot of money for practises and are sort of in those practises six days a week, eight to eight and struggling. So one thing we say is, look, we’re here to help mentor you. Be that just for advice or if you want to come on board, come on board, because we like doing things with the people together. We will go on a journey. Everyone grows at the same time.

[00:41:52] You have coaches with you guys. The collaborative side of it is strong. You know, you don’t even though you’ve got a very strong kind of identity. By the way, is that on purpose? You sort of dress the same as this. If that was a strong identity, you haven’t done the thing where you sort of geek out, like keep yourself separate from from the rest of the community that you really do. You’re very collaborative. And that’s really that’s really a good thing to do. It’s really a good sign. A lot of people don’t do that. A lot of people sort of sense themselves off a little bit. Tell me where that came from. And then the other thing we were talking about mistakes. Let’s talk about mistakes. I like mistakes.

[00:42:39] So the whole thing, the Dental world is small. And I would even say the UK Dental world, the international Dental world now is even smaller. And if you want to grow within the Dental market, whether it’s in the academy site or practises, you need to get to know Dentists’. I mean, you need to get to know each other. So one of the things and I think in university, I mean, being a DJ and throwing parties, the networking site came easily to me. I made sure even as VTS we were quite active with Royal College FDP, we used to go to lectures just to get to know people. And, you know, a lot of people inspired us and we looked up to you so that we can, you know, build upon that. And I think that’s quite important to us. Plus, it’s great to see other people grow that I love supporting other clinicians are the businesses within the industry. If someone’s got an idea, we love to see growth and working together with people. That’s what it’s about, because as we say, that money will come and go. And it’s not about that. It’s about the journey with the right people around you and having fun along it.

[00:43:44] But it was one of those things, I think, again, that goes back to sort of mentors when we were in F.T. again, similar sort of ethos, both similar Niccola, great passion, great energy. And also the networks were huge at the time. And again, we sort of without their networks, we wouldn’t be here today because we used we kind of grew those networks ourselves from from them. And I think that from that perspective, they kind of gave us that sort of vision to say, look, you know, don’t do this by yourself, go out, collaborate with people, help people grow, nurture young dentists and help people. Most importantly,

[00:44:20] That’s to stop mistakes. Now, I want both of you to give me one clinical mistake he made and something you learn from that and then one business mistake you made and what you learn from the different. When do we start

[00:44:37] With the critical mistakes? I mean, I’m just all I can think about is my FDA and we used to go out quite often, used to come in the next day. I don’t drink. So luckily I was intoxicated. But whilst drilling, I did put the bar to the floor of the patient’s mouth, slipped, went for the floor, the patient’s mouth. Yeah, that was quickly learnt the importance of a strong finger. Luckily, look managed to do well and to me was there to save the day. But my FDA was full of mistakes. I think clinical mistakes. I mean, you did too many to go through. And I think that the main thing is, as you’re doing in your younger days, have the right support so people can step in and help you out when you do make the mistake and help you and help you grow as well. I think the Freudenberger from the floor of the mouth that was

[00:45:27] Done now for his clinical setting, you can think about your business mistake,

[00:45:33] I think sort of clinical mistake. It’s not so much clinical, but I think one of the most important things I learnt was very early on was assessing the patient. And I think, you know, we can all do treatment to X amount of standard. I think patients always are aware of what’s going on. But for me, I very vividly remember I just started in a in a private practise squat practise. And I was I was pretty I was pretty much it was in my after year and it was one of the first patients that seen I think I got a bit too excited, you know, charging 200 pounds for a composite and the FDA. And and I didn’t really see the patient side of it as much. And, you know, did the work really quickly. Patient walks out and says, how can you charge 200 pounds for that 40 minute appointment? And he was in my mouth for about 15, 20 minutes of that. And what I didn’t realise is that back then and again, this is something that my mentors taught me, is that you’ve got to treat the patient as a whole. You know, it’s not just about the dentistry, and I love that very, very early on, so now it’s and again, it’s never about the money, but you have to we have to understand that for the patient that you’re offering a service, they are paying for that service. And that was the lesson I learnt very, very early on.

[00:46:42] That’s a good one. Let’s move to business and take

[00:46:46] Can

[00:46:49] I you to take, but

[00:46:56] I’ll give you a bit of business mistake. Not so much a mistake. I think circumstances are what they are, but one of our practises we ended up buying in Norfolk and we had a really sad situation where one of the old owners was diagnosed with cancer and one of the major, major providers of the practise. And, you know, the practise sort of went from turning over close to a million pounds to go to half of that within the space of a year because we just couldn’t fulfil the NHS contract side of things. And I think one of the mistakes that we made was probably not having that vision to create contingencies or planning ahead for that sort of situation. And some of it’s out of our hands. We couldn’t obviously you dealt with the cards are dealt with, but I think we probably could have dealt with that better make some contingencies. But again, it’s all about learning from those mistakes. So now one thing that we have got is contingencies across the board to make sure that we are fulfilling the NHS targets, but making sure that patients have that continual access, regardless of whether someone’s there or not. There’s always someone to help fill that, fill the boots.

[00:48:11] Another. I mean, my what I would say is if you’re going to a bank manager’s meeting, there’s about a million quid, they’ll be useful to get the right back manager’s name and the right by name right

[00:48:28] Out

[00:48:30] Already there with our financial director. I walked in obviously 15 minutes late, as I usually do. I assumed it was virgin money because I saw the logo outside walking. I go with Richard Branson. I’m here to get his money. Little did I know it was a totally different bank robbing bank. Romney Yeah,

[00:48:52] Because I’ve done a lot of the chat before then.

[00:48:54] So let’s talk about the academy. What’s what’s the what’s the sort of where did it start and where we are now? How many people you’ve got going through your many, many different causes. I see.

[00:49:10] Yes, I mean, look, we’ve got over one hundred and fifty delegates now enrolled in our courses and the majority of our courses are longitudinal diplomas and it all started in twenty. Eighteen. All right.

[00:49:22] Twenty nineteen and twenty eighteen.

[00:49:26] It started around such a long time.

[00:49:30] We had a number of back then. We had about fifty associates used to work for us and they’re all asking us, Genki, you’ve done a lot of course is what you recommend. Would you recommend. And we’ve done some fantastic courses and I still recommend them based education on let’s try and put something together for our dentist because we’ve got the network back that was meant to be predominantly us teaching it. But then I said to them, you know, why don’t we take it one step further? We’ve got a lot of good contacts with big lecturers, international lecturers. Let’s get them involved. The next thing you know, we thought it’d be quite nice to give the delegates some sort of recognition in terms of let us off the name, some sort of accredited diploma. So we went down that path and that’s how it all started and initially was meant to be just our own dentistry sort spiralled out where we are. So many people wanted to get role. And since that, we our first call was March twenty nineteen Fusako of Diploma of Restorative Anaesthetic and we were on our seventh one now with the implant diploma orthodontic one and don’t daunting one. And what I’m proud of and I think these guys don’t get enough credit is our Dental therapist one, our Dental therapists. I mean firstly fantastic to work with, but the clinical skills shocked me. Some amazing unity.

[00:50:53] We find that on the news for me, Cooper. The therapists are better than the dentists. It’s I don’t know. I think it’s self selecting. The kind of therapist who decides to save the money and come and do the course is really, really key. Yeah, maybe that’s the problem. This place where the people coming from, is it is it like, OK, word of mouth and all that. But, you know, advertising, is it to do with your sort of personal brand and people want to be close to you? Don’t just tell me what you think.

[00:51:28] Yes, I think it’s a mixture. So a lot of it is word of mouth. A lot of it is through the brand itself. And social media has been has been great as well in terms of sort of people sort of seeing myself in a lot of that. The lectures are up to and again, sort of our passion for what we do and how we sort of approach dentistry. And it’s just all about being positive. And most important thing for us is having fun while still learning. And I think that’s a key element for us.

[00:51:56] We get asked of did you know, I mean, there’s so many academies and so many university courses and so many programmes, every one of them is fantastic. It just depends what kind of learning style you like, what kind of education you like, and it’s that environment you fit in with. So that’s why I say, look, try to see what other people do in every one of them has got their own styles, how to do it. And ours is slightly different, whereas, you know, play harder. And that’s how we want to get across to everyone making learning fun. That’s the best way of

[00:52:26] Explaining it to me then. I mean, I know it’s got in the way, but explain that to me. How is you? Of course, more fun than the next one.

[00:52:33] I don’t even want to say fun. I mean, look, we try and make it fun as possible. We got music playing. We’ve got a social happening as well. But our lecturing style as well and our energy that we bring in. So those of you know myself, K’iche, Ali, as well, we’ve got our own style of lecturing as well, which, you know, it’s not for everyone. And that’s the thing I remember being doing our masters and some lectures you warm to some you know, you find it quite difficult. We can all relate to teachers at school as well. You know, those do we can relate to. And it’s about finding who are you going to learn the best from? And one thing we always say is don’t do our courses or any course for CPD or for letters after your name do. So you can really apply the skills and knowledge. The next day I get on many small Makov. You learn composite Monday morning, apply it. And that’s the most important thing, stuff that you can apply that’s relevant to your practise. You have to make it. You know, you should apply.

[00:53:28] Yeah, I mean, every, every sort of Monday night we run like a case clinic for all the delegates, for all the diplomas, for the employment diploma, for the orthodontic diploma, the restorative and also for the therapists. And the reason why we do that is because we really, really want to encourage them to implement what they’re learning in practise. And the only way by doing that is by bringing cases that you’re going to treat and helping support them on planning those cases and executing them. And that’s one thing that we’re very passionate about and we are very adamant about that come on the course. But make sure that you’ve got enough cases that you’re going to get this work so that everything that you’re learning, you’re able to implement in the next day.

[00:54:08] Yeah. So put a bullet point

[00:54:11] When you guys buy a practise and you’ve got a whole bunch of new clinicians on board in the group, is the training part of the package, so to speak, in terms of elevating the standing of that practise? So let’s say I was a dentist working at a practise that you just acquired. Do I get to benefit from the diplomas, et cetera, et cetera? Is this some kind of a deal or is it mandatory? What’s the relationship between the two businesses? That’s good. Mean look, we’ve got certain things that are mandatory in terms of we do our symposiums where four or five times a year we’ve got courses going on on the weekend where it’s composite courses could be a rubber dam course, variety of courses running where, you know, any Dental to come along and learn from from the other side. Would you separate the academy side is something which, you know, delegates do want to do for the education. They’ve got the opportunity where some can do at a discounted rate and some if they go on a salary package, they it could be included as well. So we’ve got a variety of options. And that’s sort of in a way helped making sure that the clinical standards within each practise are to the maximum that can possibly be. And plus all our, you know, clinicians are seeing each other on courses and the continuing growing as well.

[00:55:26] Yeah, just just to go back to that point about a symposium for us that was a really, really important part of of the group and the ethos in terms of the clinical standards of dentistry that we want to try and achieve, because that’s free for the fall of our associates. They come on at four or five times a year. But also it’s really important. It’s sort of a networking event for them as well, because, you know, the practise all over the country in Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, London, Hertfordshire, and we know that sometimes dentistry can get isolating. You know, you’re in your practise six days a week. You don’t get to go out, socialise with other dentists as much as you can, especially if you’re not going on other courses. So one thing for us that was really important was to sort of create that culture within the group where everyone’s on board with sort of investing themselves, learning and trying to excel as a clinician, but at the same time also network together have a little bit of a social life to the day and just to get to meet other people and to share experiences. Hence why we decided to do these small tight-Knit group symposiums every every two or three months.

[00:56:29] How did you manage to trademark smile as a word? How does that.

[00:56:35] I think we trademark these. If we trademark smile. A lot of small things out there.

[00:56:42] Basically, it’s one of those it’s a funny one to pick a as a brand name in dentistry. And my hat’s off to you literally. You’ve. You’ve pulled it off for the the code of practise small groups. How many employees do you guys have now? Over three hundred. Three hundred thousand.

[00:57:16] Yeah, it’s great. It’s great.

[00:57:19] That’s a hell of a beast.

[00:57:21] I’m just like the Christmas party was. And Boris really messed it up for us. I’m looking forward to this one.

[00:57:30] Should be good. What we’re looking to do a here. Right.

[00:57:32] You understand if we’re going out to. So business confidence come from guys,

[00:57:39] What does the confidence come from? I think it’s when you feel like you’re doing the right thing and you’ve been on the right path. Learning dentistry is the one thing I would say is that when we started this, I wanted to know dentistry inside out. I make sure I learnt the clinical we know how practises work. We know the NHS, how the system works and how clinicians work, how the patients see it. So we made sure we learnt everything we can within dentistry. And I think once you’ve got the knowledge that helps with the confidence within it as well. I think our education that we’ve spent a lot of time and money on has helped us with the confidence side as well.

[00:58:14] There’s lots of people, lots of Dental education, right, but they haven’t got three hundred employees. I mean, this notion of we’re going to grow, we’re going to keep going, we’re going to keep loads of people think that. Yeah, but actually executing on it and having the option to keep going and wanting to trace it back to you was to be the confident guy, to become a deejay and all of that. Right. But both of you. Can you trace it back to why didn’t you just buy practise until

[00:58:47] You hit it? Well, I think it’s two things. One is having that growth, but you want to do big things and drive, drive, but you also need to execute properly. And that’s where you know, where privacy avoid the drive always had to drive. Even as university. I was talking to my friends I about 16, 16 year, lowest high school and high school, and we were throwing parties for university students. So we used to go flying disco to kings and throwing parties for university students. So that drives always been there. But I think when K’iche came along, it was the execution part and I think both need to be there. Otherwise, one person is you’re dreaming and planning, but nothing ever gets executed. And I think when both came together, I think that’s where it worked for us.

[00:59:33] No, I couldn’t agree more with that. I think the the beauty of it is that we’ve always said, look, we’ve always got to dream big, but we’ve also been able to execute what we’re dreaming about and sort of and it’s all about timing and execution. But not only that, I think part of the confidence comes around from having the right people around you. You know, I think that’s the massive part of the journey and both myself and just been blessed to have the right people around us at every stage, every stage of our career, not only clinically, but also in terms of business. We’ve had great mentors and military people that sort of lean upon for advice when needed. And that’s still the case. And, you know, we always say whenever the finished article, we’re always learning and that will never stop. So both of us look to the embassy some point again now that we’ve sort of got our clinical side to invest lot of clinically, we’re now looking to grow the business side. And to do that, you have to go through the process of education as well.

[01:00:30] Recommend the NBA guys, if you speak to people who have done them and they want to run GlaxoSmithKline when they come out of it. I just want to work with everyone who’s done what has been done with it. Don’t get me wrong, plenty of people have been happy with it. Even it’s it’s actually brilliant, man. And it’s great. It’s obvious you’re enjoying it. Would you enjoy the most and what benefit would you rather. I know it’s obvious. One of you likes one thing, the other likes the other. What’s your favourite bit of itching? The acquiring.

[01:01:12] Yeah, I mean, I like the growth side, so I love, you know, the whole academy teaching side. I mean, I’m teaching this week in Ipswich for Health Education in England, next week for Birmingham College of Medicine, Dentistry, etc. next week as well. But I like seeing people grow and I like working with people. I like the whole site and I love the acquisition site. That’s predominantly where you know, where my head is that in the with a passion and enjoyment comes for myself.

[01:01:37] Yeah, similar to Jen in terms of acquisition and the growth and also sort of forging relationships, I think that’s been a massive part of being able to do and being able to grow, I think forging relationships with not only sort of banks, but also solicitors and people outside of the clinical remit within dentistry. I think it’s been amazing. And that’s the part that’s something that we both are very, very passionate about. And I really love that part of it, because you meet people of all walks of life and the experiences that you can gain from them is immense.

[01:02:09] Casey, you spoke about your transformation earlier, coming down from a hundred and two kilos, you touched upon confidence, right? I certainly know myself if I’m on my game when it comes to training, eating, diet, if that is bangle my entire life, like my performance in life, whether it’s time with my kids, whether it’s in business, whether it’s talking to clients, whether it’s meeting people, it focuses in centres around a couple of things, Wii and Armatrading. Right. And if those two are in line, everything else and I’ll put my success down to that. And it sounds like a crazy thing to do, especially when you’re talking to someone who the idea of Jim is just foreign. Right. And it just just doesn’t enter into that. So you talk to me about you went from a hundred and two kilos to whatever you are now. How did that transform your life in terms of business, family life, confidence? Socially?

[01:03:08] It was it was huge, had a huge, huge impact. And I think I know General has seen that sort of first hand, the confidence it gives you very much the same Prav if my training is on my diet is on point. Everything else just fits into place in life, not just for work, but most importantly for the family. Your head is in a much better space. And that that gave me a huge amount of confidence. You know, it was one of those things that had been in the back of my mind for such a long time, you know, and being at that sort of that sort of weight and not being in shape, it does affect your confidence 100 percent. You know, it’s one of those things. And it just got to that point for me where I had to make a change and making that change, going through that process gave me a different sort of mental toughness because it gave me the sort of approach in life that I can achieve, anything I put my mind to. And no matter how big that dream is, I can achieve it. Hence, you know, if that’s in business and family, whatever it is, that has been sort of a huge impact on my life personally on that.

[01:04:14] And that trigger was just walking up the steps with you, with your baby feeling just some out of breath. How am I going to run around with my kid,

[01:04:23] You know, pizza three times a week and all that sugar was not doing any favours and let you walking up those steps. And I got to the top and it wasn’t it wasn’t like a long flight of stairs. And I just thought, this is just I cannot live like this. You know, I’ve got to be around for a lot longer. I’ve got a lot more to give. And that’s just what I just needed to make a change.

[01:04:43] I was it black and white for from the moment you made that decision, it was like you did turn to switch on a hundred percent. You can’t go in another direction. Or was there a bit of moderation in between? What was going through your head?

[01:04:55] Now, I’m very much if I put my mind to it, I want to get it done. And for me, it was a three month process. You know, we went through I mean, I started losing a little bit of weight initially, and then I got in touch with with a personal trainer through a company. And I just made a decision that I just wanted to achieve the best physical shape I could possibly achieve and in the shortest amount of time possible. So we did it. I think three months start to finish. But it for me was just a switch, just black and white, just wanted to get it done

[01:05:26] And so forth. Practises on what what’s the next stage? Any physical transformation, Mr. Olympia? Do you think we’ll do

[01:05:40] It together, Prav Keisha’s

[01:05:43] Transformation is on his Instagram if anyone’s not seen it, and I think she’s on only fans as well now.

[01:05:51] Always depend on you for the. But, you know, again, you know, putting that that picture up on Instagram was not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination. But again, I wanted to put it out there because it was more to sort of inspire people to sort of if they’re ever struggling with anything, if you can put your mind to it, you can achieve it. And it’s just about telling them, you know, your wife has to be strong enough. And if your wife is strong enough, you can achieve it 100 percent.

[01:06:19] Well done, trust your justice project of yours might end up with an exit, right? I know you’re way too young to be thinking of it, but but, you know, there is that question. Like, if if there was an exit, let’s say let’s say someone came along and gave you money on your dreams to to walk away. Can you do next?

[01:06:47] That’s the question we keep asking ourselves pretty much every day. I mean, the exit is going to come one day and I’m a bit unpredictable at least. And if the fun goes for me, I might be out tomorrow morning because this process for me has to be fun and enjoyable. If I’m not enjoying it, I’m out because we one thing we asked ourselves, why are we doing this? And for me, it’s about enjoying the process. But I want to live long. For me, it’s not about the money. It’s about living long.

[01:07:14] What can you do? What do you do?

[01:07:17] What else would we do? I know you play a lot more golf and improve his game.

[01:07:25] I think I think I think we’ve always got to have an exit strategy. I think whatever you do in life, you’ve got to plan ahead. So I know for both of us, we love we love property. That’s always something that we’ve been talking about for a long time. I know Jim wants to own a nightclub one day because he loves the giant party. So I’m pretty sure that’s on the cards. But who knows? Who knows? And is it the most important thing for us is it’s got to be enjoyable. Whatever the next is, it’s going to be enjoyable. Even this whole process we’re on, we’re having fun. And as Jim said, once the fun stops, then that’ll probably accelerate the exit plan.

[01:08:00] I like them, our guys will put Prav has these questions he asks at the end of each of these podcast

[01:08:10] Guys, you probably know what’s coming next, but I’m going to flip flop between the two of you. I’ve got three questions. So Jim, starting off with his self imagination last day on the planet, but you’re going to live long and have a lot of fun along the way. But let’s say that day comes and you’ve got you’ve got your little ones around you. What three pieces of wisdom would you leave them? For the rest of you, going down from a deep 60 up propertied may not ice, it’s three pieces of wisdom, I would say. Firstly, dream big as big as you want you. Whatever you want to do, you can achieve it. Secondly, enjoy your life, enjoy meaning, enjoy every process, every step of the way. Don’t put too much pressure, but don’t overdo it as well. Education is not everything that makes you do that. And lastly, I would say is the last bit advice for the kids. Difficult one, I would just say support one another, keep the family, keep keep the unit together. I think family is everything and I would say tell them, you know, support each other as you guys. You they’ll be my advice. So I dream big, happy, happy along whatever you want to do and support each other. That’s said. It’s nice and safe for you. Three pieces of wisdom.

[01:09:32] Yeah, so exactly what my grandma told me when I was growing up is that, you know, never, ever, ever chase funny because the more you chase it, the further will run away from you. I think that’s one of the most important things in life. You know, whatever you do, similar to Jim in the sense of family is always going to come first. So make sure you’re supporting each other, not only just but you kids are going to go out and not just yourselves, but the bigger family. One thing I grew up with was a great network, a support network within the family where all of us were very close. And that’s one thing I would always say to them is just try and make sure that you keep those bonds and grow them, make them stronger. And the third thing is just don’t take life too seriously. You know, it’s not all about achieving grades. It’s about being happy and living each moment to the to the max that you can you know, you don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. So make sure you enjoy each day as much as you possibly can.

[01:10:33] It’s lovely, Jane, back to you and. If you had something written on a tombstone, say, Gene was an. Finished, finished off, what would you would your legacy be? How would you like to begin involved? Dude was jokes that Gene was joking, was jokes, it’s. And Keish.

[01:11:10] It’s a good question.

[01:11:16] Got to get straight.

[01:11:19] I was going to say that I was going to say

[01:11:23] It doesn’t have a single word of

[01:11:27] It, that let’s go with the

[01:11:29] Prav disappeared again. But his final his final final final question. And again, it’s a long way away for you guys, but let’s say you knew you had 30 days left, yet you had your health, but you knew you had 30 days left. How would you spend those 30 days?

[01:11:49] Ok, I’ll go first on that one, I mean, for me, it would be with my kids, my family, the whole lot, and I would just take them away if money wasn’t an issue. I just take them away somewhere where, you know, you could have a different experience every every day or every week. So travel around the world.

[01:12:06] Where’s your favourite place even?

[01:12:08] My favourite place was probably Bali.

[01:12:12] Beautiful, beautiful, sunny. How are you to decide I’m

[01:12:17] Going to fly straight to Vegas, but you want to join me

[01:12:23] For a business in Bogota? I’m on a

[01:12:27] Flight to Vegas. I say Pakistan unstable. That’s where we’re going, 30 nights

[01:12:34] For three nights straight

[01:12:36] Paid for by small ethnic group

[01:12:41] Respec. Could see amazing guys. It’s been lovely having you on

[01:12:47] Now, but thanks so much. I appreciate it.

[01:12:49] I appreciate it. Thanks so much, guys.

[01:12:53] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders, the history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:13:09] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it

[01:13:23] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:13:34] And don’t forget our six star rating.

In this episode, we welcome insight from Darren Cannell and Andy Stafford into building successful practices and turning old friends into business partners. Darren and Andy discuss their successes in dentistry, including running practices and giving patients quality treatments. 

Darren and Andy also tell us about their journey from university to set up their own business in a Grade 2 listed building in Newcastle.



“We wanted to deliver a level of dentistry that we thought wasn’t available in the region at a time when there were big practices in Liverpool and Manchester and London. We looked and thought there isn’t a landmark practice in Newcastle that was offering this really, really high-level service. So from the start, our vision was, let’s just do unbelievable dentistry, let’s have a surrounding that that looked like Harley Street.” – Andy Stafford


In This Episode


01.51 – Meeting one another

08:07 – Uni life and study

08.49 – Going into business with freinds

09.59 – Finding direction

13:06 – Heading to the North East

14:44 – Buying a Grade 2 listed building

22:04 – Mentors

26:16 – Hiring right

29:15 – Approaching problems together

34:35 – Splitting responsibility

37:38 – Invisalign

39:28 – Expanding

41:42 – Opportunities in a pandemic

45:17 – Work-life balance

46:44 – A day in the life

51:52 – Outside dentistry

57:53 – Dental trends

59:20 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Darren Cannell and Andy Stafford


Andy Stafford

After graduating from Newcastle University in 2001, Andy pursued a career in private restorative/cosmetic dentistry. He has managed a chain of successful teeth whitening clinics across the North of England.

He has used virtually all teeth whitening systems on the market today and has a portfolio of over 500 completed whitening procedures to date. He co-founded both The Cosmetic Dental Clinics in Durham and the heart of Newcastle with Darren Cannell.


Darren Cannell

Darren Cannell also graduated from Newcastle University Dental School in 2001. After graduating, he was awarded the prestigious James Coltman Award, an individual honour awarded for overall skill in Operative Dentistry.

He became an established restorative/cosmetic dentist, working out of two very successful practices across the North West. He co-founded both The Cosmetic Dental Clinics in Durham and in the heart of Newcastle with Andy Stafford.

[00:00:00] Dentistry that I just didn’t really know existed, and we were working hard at this really nice practise in Lancashire. We thought, what, we can do this for ourselves. We don’t we don’t need to do this for someone else. It wasn’t a massive desire for us to have our own practise. It just seemed at that point that was the natural thing to do. And a lot of that was based on the fact that we wanted this around and we wanted we wanted to deliver this level of dentistry that we thought wasn’t available in the region at a time when there was big practises in Liverpool and Manchester and London for us. We looked and thought there isn’t really a landmark practise in Newcastle that was offering this really, really high level service. So from the start, our vision was, let’s just do unbelievable dentistry, let’s do dentistry, let’s have a surrounding that that looked like Harley Street.

[00:00:59] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental dentistry. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:16] I t gives me great pleasure today to welcome Andy Darrow to the Dental Leaders podcast to Dental to the clinical directors of the Cosmati Dental Clinic, an exclusive group of practises in Newcastle and Durham. I met you guys probably 15 years ago, and I think we both, all three of us started our journey together in business at that time. I remember driving to it must have been Liverpool. Yeah. Meeting you guys in one of your apartments and you telling me about your love, the idea of this amazing new cosmetic clinic that you wanted to launch in central Newcastle, you about superexcited. And the journey all started there, really. And I think from memory, you probably met me through my brother who you met on the Paul Tipton course, if that’s right. That’s right. They all started there. But if we take a few steps back, obviously, you guys as best friends back then, how did you how did you guys meet and get into the industry together? We were at university together and then decided to practise together. Just tell us the story of how you guys came together and then culminated in this launch of this practise. Yeah, so first of all, guys, thanks for having us on the podcast today, we’ve been listening to your podcast for the past few months. It’s been exceptional. And we do feel as though when Larry Rosen tells Hotseat today. So thanks for thanks for joining to join in today. So, yes, so is Nighty Night six Newcastle Dental School. First day I remember sort of going into where everyone signs on and looking around and sort of the case and everyone’s seen what everyone was like. And I remember seeing this lad with like a long blonde Bob with with a with a Scouse accent. And and yeah, that was the first time I met Darren.

[00:03:23] And I wish I still have that long blonde. But to be honest,

[00:03:28] He moved from Liverpool.

[00:03:30] No, no, I’m the Scouser family since, as Andy just said, thanks again, guys, for inviting us on very much. Appreciate this. But it was my apartment back in the Albert Dock of Liverpool where I first met us. But yeah, Andy and I first met Newcastle Dental School. And you know what it’s like on that first day. You look around for people like you think you’ve got similarities to people are going to have similar interests to you other than what your main reason of being there is. And I think we did very early doors.

[00:04:01] What was your first outlook when you set eyes on them on Monday? Was it was it love at first sight? Was there anything like the equivalent of the long blonde bulb that attracted you to him?

[00:04:10] I thought that there’s a lot that would look a lot better if he had the long blonde.

[00:04:15] But I also remember Darren had the eye wall one thing, but that was that was a vast array of YSL shirts in every single colour, which in nineteen ninety six, if you might remember, what were the things to have in literally every colour under the sun. And I was just, just a normal, hardworking northern lights. So, you know, I was just there to get my head down and do the study.

[00:04:44] Fashion was the thing in Liverpool still is very much a thing in Liverpool, obviously just hadn’t hit the the sunny sides of Sunderland just

[00:04:51] To know she was upset and threatened with Newcastle at the time. And so just moving on from there, did you guys become so obsessed, maybe start hanging out together from that first day? Yeah, I mean, I think Darren is both experienced of university was the same in that I think we were Newcastle University undergraduates rather than Dental school undergraduates. We spent a lot of time in the Dental school, but also the Dental school doing other stuff. I think we mixed with people from Northumbria Uni. A lot of my friends were in sports teams, rugby team, golf team, that sort of stuff. And there was a lot of people that were just completely focussed on going into the and doing dentistry where I think we were a bit more focussed on on having having an experience the university as well and exploring other avenues. And I think that’s where we became good friends, was that we actually like to do a lot of stuff that wasn’t related. And the further we went through university, we both realised that the clinical side of it was where we excelled and the clinical side of it was where we actually got the enjoyment out of it in the pharmacology books was something we all had to do. But it was when we got to the clinical Hands-On side that we both got found that that was where we got the most enjoyment and where our skill sets were as well. Did you use to talk to each other about setting up a practise together while you were students?

[00:06:19] I don’t think at that point we didn’t think it was more about enjoying life or getting through Dental school. I think there was there was that side of it that we concentrated on. I think as the years passed and we done more and more clinical work, I think we both were from a very similar mindset. Long term, I don’t think either of us ever wanted to be just driller’s and philes. You know, there was a certain type of country that we wanted to go into which our eyes were open to more and more, probably more postgrad times. But I think we just shared so many similar interests, whether it be sports, whether it be girls of Newcastle, whatever it may be, it was that side of things that probably made us connect initially.

[00:07:03] And so just give us a give us a summary of what your life at university was like in terms of we we have kids that would from last minute four exams just scrape through. And you were passing through. How was the balance? Payman? He’s got a question. He’s got his hands up. I saying, yeah, that was me.

[00:07:23] Well, I think it’s fair to say, well, I can certainly say for myself, I don’t think I’m one of life’s most academics, but what I am is somebody who’s willing to put a shift in. I’m a grafter. And so it didn’t necessarily come naturally to to me once I got to to university levels. I didn’t really struggle much through taxes and A-levels. But at university, I think trying to find that balance between uni life and study was was a challenge. And I think we certainly partied hard when we were able to party hard, but we were also the ones that would be first and at the library to get our heads down and and get through the undergrads, you know, study like we needed to.

[00:08:07] So, you know, people people say don’t go into business with friends and family. And I did. I went to business with the guys. I live with the university for five years. Yeah. I find actually you end up knowing each other really, really well. And there’s a level of trust that you have when you’ve known when you’ve grown up with someone because it doesn’t have a trust that you have. What’s your position on it? I mean, did you worry about the

[00:08:33] The bottom line is, I think what we’ve been asked that question so many times over the years, some people have said, you know, how have you managed to maintain friendships and business relationships for 15 years plus? And I think, as you say, it stems back from the start. Our relationship started out as a friendship and it’s still, to this day, very much a friendship first and business partner second. And Andy and I were still very different characters. You know, when as we grow and as we mature and life takes you in different ways from a family perspective, you’re inevitably going to change by way of character. I’m one of these people. I’m probably the stress head of the two of us. I’m the one that wants everything done to a certain standard yesterday, whereas the as has got a skill set where you can be much more laid back, you can turn things on and off as and when he wants to, which is, I must say, a skill that I’m envious of. But I think together we complement each other. And I think trust is is a massive thing for us. You know, we trust each other implicitly. People have always said with a fiver for that sort of people. But the nice thing about us is, is that we’re in a situation where when there’s decisions to be made, you know, we’re there to listen to each other with to talk to each other. And usually in a short space of time, we can come to a resolution and a solution to move things forward. And 15 years later, I wouldn’t say we’ve done too much of that

[00:09:59] In 15 years. Have you ever had any massive disagreements, post ups, sort of difference of opinion on how you should do things? And then if so, how did you come to sort of resolve? Yeah, no, we haven’t really we’ve done extremely well. I mean, when you think about it, that’s a lot of years to not have a big argument from the start. We really try to set things up to be more of an experience place. I know. I know. Now, that’s that’s a very popular thing to do to set up a dentist practise to be experienced. But that was really what what we try to do from the start. And we wanted to set it up to be somewhere that we lot we wanted to work. And we actually got enjoyment out of the day to day going in the building, using the equipment, using the technology. And we’ve been very aligned on that from the start. Our direction has always been to try and build and move things forward or to not not to do that too quickly, to take it at our own pace, to be maybe a little bit more cautious than other people have. And I know we’ve had chats in the past Prav way. You’ve said you can do this, you can do that, can do that, and we’ve done OK.

[00:11:07] But we’ll just take it at our pace. And we’ve always been quite aligned on that. It hasn’t been one of us. Let’s go and open five practises tomorrow. It’s always been let’s let’s just take a little step. Let’s be sustainable. And as well, I think going back from the university days, we have a friendship that is not Dental, first of all. So, I mean, a lot of the time we spent together at university was not sitting and studying. It was going to watch the match, are going to be a sports day or something like that. And I think having that background still is still relevant, that if we just talked about teeth all of the time, we’d probably have a lot of arguments it and being able to just sort of at least say, OK, do you want to watch the Liverpool match this week? I’m just not worth watching. So so we tend to watch Liverpool. That’s that’s. I’ve been a big thing. Indulge me, tell me about that first day you met Prav. How did you come across? Because I think we met I met Prav similar time to when you guys met him.

[00:12:15] Well well, I can take you back to it because it feels like yesterday, to be fair, despite having all of you years ago with obviously Andy and I had this idea. We knew what we wanted to do. We knew what we we felt. We knew what we needed to do to achieve it. But one big thing we found is that look at all of the practises that we’re in and around the Northeast, because at this point, we’ve decided the Northeast was where we wanted to go. So we tried to do our research and see what was out there. And there seems to be quite a lack of websites. So we basically needed someone on board who could enlighten us as to what we needed to do. So Andy was doing the Tipton course over the Caliche at the time. So Andy Cohen said to me, well, if I’ve heard from Kay that this is somebody that we can work with at that point, we knew it was Kay’s brother. And then before us, we arranged a meeting at my house. It was my first home in the Albert Dock in Liverpool. And Prav turned up in a Ford car, I think is his car choices somewhat changed in recent times. And yeah, I was proud of her. And we we all sat down together and and worked out what we needed to do.

[00:13:28] So it was it was at that point we’re talking 15 years ago, it was like to have a website. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was really quite strange how it all came about, as David was saying that I was speaking to coalition with and I think he would just sell Chris Dental at this point. And I was saying we’ve got these big ideas of this big fancy practise in Newcastle, but we need to be digital. We need to we need to get something on the on the way. And I said, well, I’ve been using a really good guy is he’s really experienced, knows what he’s talking about. He says, no, maybe you should hit him up. And the funny thing was that when we opened our practise, first of all, we did well. When we when we launched the business, we had a website that provided a great deal of design and we had a wreck of a building in Newcastle that you couldn’t even walk in because the rain came all through all five stories of the building. And we literally did interviews for members of staff in the Malmaison Hotel in the Cup and the key side of Newcastle. So actually, the first thing we actually had was was this website from Prav. And that was going to generate as thousands of patients and get the business kick started, including the one you’re in now.

[00:14:44] It’s the same building. Yeah, this building came up at this point. We made our decision, not Newcastle was the place to be for us. And we searched and searched around the area and then stumbled across this building, an old Heldon square, which we fell in love with immediately. It was at the time it was on the buildings at risk, rich buildings at risk register. So we were hoping that there might be some sort of grants available for this grade to list listed building that might help these two young whippersnappers to, you know, to develop a practise within it. Funnily enough, the minute we paid the deposit for the building, it disappears off the building, got rich register. And so it was almost to to pull it round. And to be fair, there was times during that first 12, 18 months where we were worried that we’d pay off more than we could chew. There was five stories of this building that was in quite a poor state of repair. And the other interesting story was that on the morning that we just paid the deposit for the building, that was the first time we met English Heritage. It was to have a meeting on site. And the first thing the guy said to us was, do not buy this building to this day, which we never really knew why they were advising us against this. But they say in life that you need a little bit of luck to go along with hard work. And two or three days after this meeting, we opened up the centre pages of the the local rag, the Newcastle Chronicle, and there was a plan set out to redevelop Old, Old and Square. So that reinstated for us that it was the right place to be. And it’s a beautiful old Georgian terrace, as I say, five stories tall. And it was a labour of love, you know, to get this building restored back to its former glory. And now is a place where we really do enjoy going to work on a daily basis and

[00:16:42] Just take us through the process of having that lofty vision at this superduper practise. And obviously mindful that you didn’t rent this building, you actually went all in and bought it. Right. It’s great to list the five story buildings, your first wall and you’ve bought. Ebola free hold, right, just take us through the whole process of what it was like having the idea. All the way to probably one of the most successful cosmetic properties in the Northeast. So the idea at the start was, first of all, we’re both working in Lancashire to really good practise down there, which was Mike Booth’s practise and Phil Broughton with that, two amazing clinicians. We’d seen a lot of unbelievable work. It was very technology driven. It was driven at this time. We just got into the ICD as well. And I think I got back from my first conference in Vancouver and was literally just blown away by what is possible in dentistry. I saw dentistry there that I just didn’t really know existed. And we were working hard at this really nice practise in Lancashire. And we thought, what, we can do this for ourselves. We don’t we don’t need to do this for someone else. It wasn’t a massive desire for us to have our own practise. It just seemed at that point that was the natural thing to do.

[00:18:05] And a lot of that was based on the fact that we wanted this around and we wanted we wanted to deliver this level of dentistry that was that we thought wasn’t available in the region at a time. There was big practises in Liverpool and Manchester and London for us. We looked and thought there isn’t there isn’t really a landmark practise in Newcastle that was offering this really, really high level service. So from the start, our vision was, let’s just do unbelievable dentistry, let’s do dentistry, let’s have a surrounding that that looked like Harley Street. And I think that was that was when we fell in love with the practise, was that the building itself looks like a Harley Street practise the floor to ceiling windows, the 18 30s architecture. It looks like Harley Street. And that was our vision from the start. And we just couldn’t say no to this building. It was too much for us. We couldn’t run and we had to buy it. And we just looked at it and thought, well, what’s the worst thing that could happen if we lose our deposits and we go and get a job somewhere else? And our mind set for the first three or four years was what’s the worst thing that could happen? So we were young, we didn’t have dependents.

[00:19:21] And we thought, well, if we’re not going to do it now, when we’re going to do it, we might as well go all in at this time. Just focus on the dream, focus on our how we want it to be focussed on the street. And I think our mindset was if if we do the dentistry that we want to do, people will come and people will see it will we knew quite a lot of people in Newcastle already, so we knew we could lean on a few people and just say, OK, let’s get you in, let’s wait in your teeth and go and tell everyone about it. And it was very much word of mouth at that time, and that’s how it snowballed. And we went from to start off with I worked two days a week. There were two days a week. We had one receptionist and one nurse to remove the full time. We got a couple of more members of staff. We then did another floor of the building. We got some more dentists in and we just build a bit by bit. And now we’ve got nine surgeries over the two sites. We’ve got, what, eight clinicians is it now?

[00:20:23] We’ve got six associates, three therapists and hygienists now.

[00:20:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see the difference there that Darren was just like we’ve got six associates, three therapists, blah, blah, blah. And you were talking earlier about how one of you is just so laid back and the other one is just the detail. And you just saw that this is

[00:20:50] What you know. Within that, though, Prav is why this is work for us over the years. Absolutely. We are very different characters from very different backgrounds, but we both bring something to the table. And I think, as I say, the nice thing is, is that we complement each other to push things forward. And I think that the bottom line is, I’m sure this times throughout this journey where I have drove on the absolutely mat and similarly and vice versa, it’s coming the other way. But the beauty is that together, irrespective of where we’ve come from, we both seem to have the same business and Dental goals we’re aligned with.

[00:21:26] Top of that, I think, as well, was we knew that each other had clinical skills, that we weren’t going to be let down by the other member of the team. So through Dental school, we knew that our work was at the top end of our group. And when we got into private practise, we knew that we could deliver really good quality dentistry. And I think being able to to trust the the person’s clinical ability has always been good. I mean, even as the practises grow, the type and the quality of dentistry that we’ve been able to do is is always been comparable. And it wasn’t that I could do something and Darren couldn’t or vice versa. We’ve always been able to to rely on each other’s dentistry, which has been a massive help.

[00:22:06] Absolutely. And people very. To talk about and I’ve listened to it on the podcast where people talk about mentors and as daft as it might sound, I feel, yes, we’ve both done so much postgrad work. We’ve gone on different courses. We’ve gone all around the world doing research. But we’ve probably mentor each other because we’ve done it together from from the get go. We’ve always turn to each other to share knowledge and make each other a better clinician.

[00:22:34] Just go back to Mike Booth. I remember hearing stories about Mike back in the day that as a clinician, he was absolutely phenomenal at speaking to patients and just had this natural ability to be able to, we say in the most ethical sense, cell treatment of cells, big cases. So Broughton’s always had a great reputation as well. What did you learn from those guys back in the days when you were at the clinic in Lancashire? I mean, it was it was a fantastic opportunity to go work at that practise. At the time, I was working at an oasis practise up in the north east and a position came available at that practise. And I had no desire to go and live in Lancashire. And I went to work at that place 100 percent for the dentists who were there and for the technology they had. And I took over a lot of Mike’s list. So I was able to see all of his work, sewage treatment plants and really picked up so much knowledge on the way from that. I mean, he did a lot of really big, complex cases, did a lot of big bridgework, lot of big small crown veny work.

[00:23:38] And and the standard was really, really high. And it was probably the first time that I realised how much sort of volume was possible in dentistry as well, because he he worked at a very quick pace and he got work done. If someone needed a full mouth rehab, you could turn it round in and next to no time and sang with fellows. Well, while some of the some of the composite work that Phil used to do was amazing and I was blown away, I’ve never seen that sort of quality of composite work before. And just actually being able to recall these patients and see it first hand was was like the best quality mentorship that anyone could possibly have at that time. Because, you know, when I’ve come to your practise, one thing that I’ve noticed is that the team seem really happy. Is that process of managing a team and and creating culture in the practise, you find that easy or is that something you’re constantly having to work at?

[00:24:39] I think well, when we first started out, it was funnily enough, we bumped into a guy who was in our year group is named Paul Thapar, and he owns a number of practises at quite a young age up in the Northeast. And we bumped into him in a car garage of all places, and we realised we were coming to the northeast and he said to us there. And then the biggest problem you will have during your career is practise practitioners is stuff. And we were sitting there at this point feeling really quite chill with ourselves because it was just me and the nurses and the receptionists and life was going just fine, OK, but we knew that as we needed to scale up, we had to build a reactor. We had to build that ethos to the people that were coming to join us. And I think early on we Andy and I did everything ourselves from the business management side of things, the recruitment side of things, the business management side of things, as well as being the dentists. And it was all baby. And we didn’t want to really hand over and delegate to others in case they weren’t taking things in the same direction as what we were.

[00:25:47] But once we got to a certain size, we realised that it really just wasn’t possible. And so we really did invest a lot of time and effort in finding the right people to then bring things forward with us. And I think the key to that in more recent times has been finding the right practise manager. And we have a practise manager, Lisa, who works with us now, who we, again, trust implicitly with our baby. And she helps now with recruitment side of things, business management, side of things, while we can focus on dentistry and grow in the brand. But I think, yeah, you’re right, it’s it’s not something that comes naturally to you. Nobody teaches you this Dental school. And it’s something I think, between the pair of us learns along the way. And yes, there’s been mistakes along the way in terms of recruitment. But I think that’s the only way you can very often learn. But the team that we have there now from clinicians all the way through to admin teams, you know, is a team that we’re extremely proud of and we’re keen to push forward with.

[00:26:47] Just talking about mistakes along the way, either hiring the wrong person or maybe getting rid of the wrong person or for the wrong reasons. Can you just enlighten us to a couple of experiences along the way, maybe having to get rid of someone who did the firing, was it or was earning? And where we did we did have a big sort of blip a few years ago that we more recently, our practise fund manager is just absolutely amazing. Dental, Prav. That’s really what we managed before the manager, before it turned out that she’d been up in the hands in the till a little bit. And when it came to light, it was quite a few quit and it got very serious very quickly. And that was our biggest mistake on the way. And looking back, it was horrendous and it really escalated and it turned out to be something that went a long way. But as an experience for us, we learnt so much about what we should do and what we need to keep our eyes on and and and things that can happen. We’ve always been so trusting. We trust everyone. And I think that was a big turning point where where we realised that, yes, we can trust people. And yes, we should always give people the benefit of the doubt, but not to not to to a point where we’ve taken our eye off the ball a little bit.

[00:28:14] So, I mean, that was probably the biggest bump in the road that we’ve had over the over the fifteen years. And I still look at that and think there was there was a lot of positive that came from that. It didn’t obviously turn out well for her. And, you know, we didn’t do so well financially that year. But I think that has actually pushed us on to the next level and we wouldn’t be where we are today if we hadn’t actually had that experience. So what was the process of obviously discovering? Not the initial shock of it all. And then I’m assuming you guys chat it through with each other. How are you going to approach her? Who was going to have the conversation with what you were going to say? Maybe repeat the conversation in your own head a hundred times, and then what would you talk about the hiring and firing process? It’s always one that induces quite a bit of anxiety, and especially with something like this where, you know, it’s been motivated by by by theft, I guess. How did you just approach that problem?

[00:29:15] I think we approach that one like we approach most things. We did it together. And it was one of these where we’ve, you know, with the type of people that like to face things from the on. And so it was one of these ones being brought to our attention, really, as to what might be happening. It was just straight into our office, sat down across the table from her and tried to establish what on earth was going on. And, you know, the. Particular person was very much in denial. But the facts were there, you know, this was this was taken on by by the police in the end. And this patient’s story, this person got a custodial sentence as a result of all of this. But, yeah, like everything else, we take these things head on together and we work our way through these things, thankfully, hired and fired as a as a general rule within the practise that the firing squad has been very limited. We’ve got a lot of team members that have been with us there for a very long time. So that side of things is not something that we’ve had to do on a on a routine basis. The hiring side of things is, again, something that we very much get involved with, particularly nowadays. It’s probably more for the clinician side of things. And we have Lisa and the management teams underneath her that do the rest of the staff. But we’re very much heavily involved in choosing the right dentists and therapists and hygienists to come and join us, because, again, in protection of our baby, we want to be involved at that point to ensure that the people will bring an end to upset the apple cart that we’ve worked so hard to achieve and to make sure that they’re going to follow the same ethos that we want our practises to work.

[00:30:51] What qualities does a clinician need to earn a place at your clinic? I mean, it’s evolved quite a bit over the over the past few years. At the start, when we were at capacity, we were looking and thinking, how are we going to get someone else in? What level do they need to be on? Do they need to be the finished article to the need to be just full of passion, to the need to be full of energy. And we have a really, really good senior associate that works with us, who’s been with us for quite a few years now called Neil Hare. And and he came in and done some private dentistry award stuff. He came in with a big portfolio of work, which back then people just didn’t have. And we always just looked for passion and a bit of a work ethos. I think that was that there were the two main things that we’ve always tried to look look for. And from that, that’s probably the last time we’ve advertised for a job. But the practise since then, we got a lot of CVS and I think we’ve been extremely lucky to actually being able to attract a lot of the Dental talent of the north east. We’ve got some amazing guys there at the minute, as you know, and is very much a team effort. And every single clinician has been picked on. Yes. That can do a great clinical job or to have the right work ethic. Are they brought in with our cosmetic Dental clinic ethos of of quality precision care? I mean, those are the three core values that we’ve had from the start, and that’s really how it’s evolved over the years.

[00:32:25] Our last few associates have literally just budgeters for so long with CVS and cases of the case of isn’t the case. Obviously now it gets a bit more digital and it’s a bit more getting tagged in Instagram posts and things like that. But I mean, that that just shows to us how passionate these people are. And that’s that’s what we that’s what we really have tried to grow in the practise. We’ve always preferred to bring on younger dentists that just have that fire in them rather than someone that’s been doing it for years and years and years. And they just look at it picking up the paycheque. And yeah, I can churn out so many whatevers and I can earn some money. We’ve we’ve always wanted it to be a career progression from people. Let’s start we’ve done a couple of mentorship staff contracts with dentists as well, where we’ve had them under our wing for a year and we’ve talked them through Invisalign and could ontology and some of our practises, Thorstein, and now they’re just flying at practise. And it’s been such a great part of the process to be able to see these guys grow from where they started coming to as an age for twenty or thirty two to to actually where they are now. These were the nicest things about a business is seeing people grow, isn’t it? There’s so many other problems and issues with that.

[00:33:45] That one thing for me is one, the nicest thing about owning because you’ve been a long term and you can see long term, what happens is how do you divide the work between you? I mean, who takes care of one? Because one of you will naturally go one way and one with another who handles Prav, for instance? That’s always a three summate. Who handles Prav? Yeah, work is definitely a double double heads when we’re dealing with there’s too many ideas for minutes. We have to write it all down. What not naturally the clinical work divides itself. OK, solved and the flow of patients into practise naturally gets divided up. And we’ve always, as we’ve gone along, as the jobs come in, we might have ten jobs on the table. We’ll just say that’s five for you, that’s five for me. And Robyn is trying to use. All of our energy to the both of us have to do these 10 jobs, we’ve always just tried to split it. So I trust you to get those jobs done. I’ll do those jobs and then we’ll just report back. So I think actually having the partnership along the way has really been able to help us to grow and to get to be to be a lot more productive. And we try not to cross over too much and allow the other person to get that job done so that we can do something else a bit more productive with our time as well.

[00:35:06] And I think it’s fair to say when we are splitting up these jobs and we are delegating to one another, that’s something that you learn through time. You learn who’s better at what role, you know. And so I think it sort of happens quite quickly, quite naturally, when the jobs but will always still turn to each other ultimately for the final decisions, because this has been a joint effort from the start and it will continue to be.

[00:35:30] Just just in terms of making sort of big decisions, like, for example, you recently opened the Invisalign Centre within your practise, so, for example, buy in the new clinic in Durham. It was not like an idea that came together. Or did one of you have the idea each other? How did these conversations come about?

[00:35:52] Well, the Invisalign Centre one or Invisalign, so to correctly phrase, this was brought about, quite interestingly, really going back many years ago. And then I had an idea for the third floor of the cosmetic Dental clinic. And at that point we were I’m going back to probably two thousand eight, two thousand nine. And we invited one of the top guys, the head guys from Invisalign up for a meal. And we said to him, look, you’ve got a number of practises offering this service. You’ve got your people on the ground who were going out to visit these practises, but they’re only delivering a few numbers of cases. Why don’t you allow us to be a regional centre of excellence, in essence for Invisalign and allow us to be the Invisalign centre again, despite our wining and dining? It was a no no, but we tried. And then rather ironically, some years later, Andy and I had been recruited by Dan Splicer Sorona to teach dentistry over and across the GCC or from there were from Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, how to use Sirico Software. And while we were out in Dubai, we found and trust to come across a site which was in essence an Invisalign centre.

[00:37:07] So we were like, surely this can still be done all these years later. So that was something that I think we always felt we wanted to try and implement into our clinics. And then by weird twist of fate, it wasn’t long later that I approached by an Invisalign representative, coincidentally from Dubai, who pitched this idea about an Invisalign dedicated area within the practise and by which stage we’ve been delivering Invisalign for 15 years, plus something that we had a big passion for. And so we said, if anybody is going to do this, we want to be the first to do it. And so that decision come very easily to us and everything just sort of aligned to make sure that that sort of happened and it was the right thing for us to do. And I think the room was very it was no different to that. We’ve always just had these ideas together, which we we bounce off each other when we’re in nonclinical times, and then we’ll usually run things by the likes of yourself. Prav you think it’s a good idea?

[00:38:05] I remember that you said, will you come down to the practise? We’ve got someone to tell you. I was like, what is this? And you just told me you’ve got this new clinic in Durham and there’s a massive opportunity there, blah, blah, blah. And it was a bit like, you wait, you watch Prav got to say, what, what, what are we going to do about it? And it seemed like the natural progression for you guys to just sort of get practise number two. But I would like to know, because I’ve had this conversation with numerous people who’ve got multiple practises, what additional challenges of is to present compared to what you were expecting. So a lot of people think, oh, well, practise one is doing well, I’ll just buy practise to multiply it by two and it cannot be all right. How did you deal with that whole process of first of all, if you divide the time, one of you being in Durham all the time, one of you being in Newcastle, getting the new team up to scratch, et cetera, et cetera, how did you handle that transition from one to two? What obstacles came in the way? Well, I think it was probably quite different how other people approach it, because I think other people would would have gone and bought an existing practise with existing patients and they would have just either decided to rebrand or not rebrand and just really take over with all of its issues and with all of its positives where we just looked at it as winding the clock back to what we did in Newcastle.

[00:39:28] Rather than doing that, we were just going to find some space and we were going to just start from scratch again. And we were at full capacity at Newcastle, but we had quite a lot of patients that would come up from the Durham area. And again, going back to twenty six. When we looked at Newcastle, we looked around the city and we felt as though there wasn’t much, there wasn’t many practises that were trying to deliver really high quality cosmetic Invisalign implant dentistry down there so we could have opened up next door to the Newcastle practise. But we thought maybe it’s time to branch out. But we approached it very much that. Right. We’re going to this is going to be a squat again. We’re going to do the same process. We’re going to learn from the process that happened over five or six years in Newcastle. And we just try to accelerate that. And with your help, that’s sort of what we did. We obviously knew that a lot of our our reputation was there already and a lot of our traffic came through.

[00:40:27] The fantastic website that you put together for. Over the years, and we were fairly confident we were going to get people through the door because we could push people around, so initially we did it in a very same way as Newcastle, that I went down a couple a day and a half a week down, went down a day and a half a week. We then built I hope we got some extra associate days in the book down there. And gradually we’ve sort of crept back from it a little bit. But I’m still down there. One full clinical data we can dance down there, one full clinical day a week. And we’ve got two soon to be three associates down there the rest of the week with therapists cover as well. So we really use the resources we already had and we just stretched out a little bit. And that that worked so much better than buying another practise for as I think and I think it just fit in our model better to do it that way rather than to look at trying to change someone else’s practise. And we were in control of all the variables by doing it that way. So moving on from there, guys, what’s the plan? Practise three, four, five. Be happy and safe. What’s the what’s the big goal?

[00:41:38] This is a question that the accountants keep asking us. You know, thankfully, things are all moving in the right direction. Even despite the year that we’ve all had. We used covid could have been such a dark and bad time as as it was for so many and is for so many. But on reflection, if every cloud has a silver lining, covid was an opportunity for us to take a step back from the usual day to day. And we use that opportunity to look in at the business from the outside and realised where we could make changes to move things further forward. So we’ve come back from the Kova Times and yes, OK, we’re still working on all of these restrictions. But, you know, the team is on board. We’re pushing on we’re moving things in the right direction. Financially, things are bouncing back. And so it comes to saying to us, right, guys, when’s the next one open and where are you going to go next? Well, we’re realising now that, you know, down this line, we’re not getting any younger. There’s now dependence that we have to think about this. There’s more of a necessity to try and strike a work life balance, which certainly from my own perspective, I’ll say I’ve failed miserably for all of these years.

[00:42:50] But now with young ones in tow, it’s something I’m certainly conscious of that we need to we need to improve upon because we’re not going to get these years back with the little ones. So the thought of opening of a practise on paper looks like the right thing to do. What have we got? The energy at this time to do is have we got the time to do it at this point in time? Probably not at this point, but that’s not to say that can’t happen again in the future. But at this point, as Andy alluded to earlier, we’ve always done things incrementally, slowly but surely, because we’ve literally we’ve got ourselves to fall back on, too. So we didn’t want to go making any too big leaps of faith. And I think we’re comfortable where we’re at at the moment. Nine surgeries across two sites keeps us busy enough. And I think for the time being, that’s where it’s going to be asked. But who knows? What’s this

[00:43:42] Space? We’ve definitely got some more projects to this. And I think in our project is to is to just push through on that little bit further. And we’ve always looked at it from the very start of what’s the worst thing that can happen if you’re hoping something for all of a sudden that that dynamic looks a little bit more scary, there will be more that will do that might be practise three. It might be practise five, it might be practise ten. It might be something different, but it’s not on the horizon at the minute. We’ve always wanted just to have the growth first before we we sort of overexpose ourselves and we’ve never wanted to try and stretch ourselves to the limit that we lose focus on the day quality dentistry that we do. And I suppose one of our our major issues over the past few years is just we love to actually be in surgery. And it would be a lot easier for us if one of us said, look, I’m not going to do anything anymore. I’m just going to do business development. I’m just going to do staff training. But we both actually really like that part of the job. And we’ve got a real kick out of that side of the job. And that’s probably been at the detriment of of how many practises we’ve we’ve got. If we didn’t love it so much, we probably have ten practises by now. How do you guys cope with the work life balance? So as you start it off, as young single men who launched this practise and I guess puts everything into it, looks flat and says you could work eight hour days if you wanted and nothing mattered, and then family and kids came alone. How did that how did that change things?

[00:45:17] Well, I think there was one big advantage of of growing a team and growing trust within a team is that you can then ultimately start to delegate things off. We’re not these type of principles where we demand that we see all of the new patients coming through the doors, as Andy said earlier, which we distribute those out, but we are in a situation now where we know we need to generate time and we’re surrounded by very capable pair of hands as of hands that we can delegate certain elements of the work to. So that is something that we’re definitely working on. And I think, you know, trying to free up time to ensure that the businesses continue to move forward while still maintaining the same standards of dentistry whilst then balancing a home life is something that is going to need constant work. But again, I think we’re getting better and better. That is times going on and it’s something that we’ll continue to work with.

[00:46:17] Just talk us through both of you. How does that play out in your own personal lives? So it’s different than the typical week. What sort of hours you work and where most of the time you get for the family, what time you get into bed for you in the morning and on your way to work? How does that come out for a busy couple of practises like yourselves with the workload split between you? So I we both work three and a half days. Wednesdays are our days for admin and we’ve got a little bit of flexibility in the week to to pull in big cases if we want. I’ve got an eight and a 10 year old and I try and do four or five trouble can pick up pick ups a week. I’ve tried to be present and that’s that’s the hardest bit. You speak to anyone that’s got a business and a family, that’s the hardest part, trying to schedule it. And then the week also over the last few years, it’s been trying to pencil some time into exercise and looking after ourselves as well. And we’re not getting any younger. We need to look after the engine. There’s no point flogging ourselves to to death and not having any health left at the end of it. And it’s definitely something that we’ve tried to work on weekends is watching my son play football, picking up the golf sticks, some golf balls, just trying to relax, trying to keep it simple. My favourite part of the week is still coming back on a Friday, Friday afternoon, switching off, seeing what the kids have been up to and just relaxing for the weekend. It evolved so much over the last 15 years and it’s still going to be something we need to work on trying to get that balance.

[00:48:01] And I think it’s fair to say that’s something you’re much better off than I am. You know, I yeah, I’m a I’m a workaholic. And I think it stems back from the work ethic that certainly my father instilled into me. I feel that and I’m guilty of feeling guilty if I’m not sitting at a laptop when I’m nonclinical on, this is going to be to my detriment. So let’s make changes to this. I certainly don’t make enough time for exercise in these sorts of things. The things that I know I’ve got to push forward on. I feel as well with some of the changes that we introduced as a result of covid. There’s so many more things now which are cloud based that we do. On your advice, Prav, we changed our in-house software systems. So now I feel that, yes, I might be reduced to my clinical hours, but there’s not that many more things I can do working on and in the business from home, which you can get sucked into so easily. And I feel particularly at this time, because there’s not a lot that we can do outside of work because of the current restrictions that the world is under. I’m finding myself opening up that laptop far too much on Saturdays and Sundays when really I should be spending that time with family. And I’m hoping as the the world is unlocked with all of the with Boris’s plans, I’m hoping that will instigate further change for me to try and separate work and home life for some time conscious. I’ve certainly got to work on it to punish yourself then. I mean,

[00:49:31] If that’s your natural position, if you if you thrive in that situation, then you should lean into that. I think it’s like it’s like me trying to get myself a diary and organise my week, find me the most expensive diary in the world. I still not going to use it. And your kids, from what you’re saying about spending time with your kids, when your kid sees that you’re working hard and you’re obsessed by your work, that will be a lesson you learnt, just like you learn from your dad is.

[00:50:03] No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that’s the most valuable lesson I have ever learnt from my parents, is that hard work and determination is what is what gets you where you need to be. And I’m very grateful for that lesson was taught to me and I’m, you know, hell bent on ensuring that my daughter picks up on those traits as well. But at the same time, I’ve also got to realise that I’ve got a wife who also. Works extremely hard, and I’ve certainly got to keep her sweet because she’s a divorce lawyer, so I’ve yeah, I’ve got to realise that it’s not just about me. And I feel as a business owner, as a dentist, you can become quite a selfish individual in an effort to strive and achieve as much as you possibly can. You know, I know you’ve asked people in the past about dark days in business. And my wife would definitely say that her darkest days of being with me was when I took on a Masters because I would literally not long been engaged. And then there was a wedding and a house move to organise while I was taking myself off to the office. Every given opportunity. And I do have to consider these people. And, you know, we do have to realise that there’s more important things necessarily than than teeth and businesses. While you’re right, you do have something inbuilt within you. You do have to embrace that. You do have to consider those around you to expand.

[00:51:29] Well, if you weren’t a dentist.

[00:51:32] What would we be if we weren’t dentists?

[00:51:35] I would I would I would have loved to be in sport, and so my grown up, I would have loved to be a pro golfer wasn’t good enough, but it was always it was always hands on things for me. I would make cupboard’s I would be enjoying the outdoors. I would be a carpenter. I would always be making something with my hands. I would absolutely hate to sit in an office 9:00 to 5:00. It would drive me absolutely crazy. And we’re getting quite a lot of work and a house in a minute. I’m quite happy gardening for a full week and I’m quite happy. Make something, make a flower beds. I don’t know that that’s the sort of thing that I would as long as it’s outside active and making something, I’d be happy.

[00:52:18] And I think that’s probably why we both excelled really at the more the Dental surgery sides rather than the academia side of it. When we were at Dental school and people very often asked me that question of why, why did you become a dentist? Because again, I just growing up wanted to be my dad and my dad is a car mechanic and all. I wanted to be with him and I’d done everything in my power to boogum and pester him going into his garage, passing them the tools. And he was hell bent on me not becoming a car mechanic. He always said to me, Son, I appreciate you want to work with your hands, but you’ve got a better head on your shoulders than I have. Can you please fix something else? And it was as simple as this. He took me to a Dental appointments. Mr. Philippos was the dentist and in Krosby in Liverpool. And I was sitting there whilst my sister was getting her examination and he said to me, come on. So what is it that you’re going to do? I’m not allowing you to get underneath cars like I have. It’s far too hard to trace. Can you not fix something else? And at that point, he said, can you not fix teeth? And no word of a lie, I’ve never changed my mind since I thought that was something that I could go about doing. I did a picture of Mr. Philippos on his mantelpiece in his surgery of him and his family on a boat. And my dad tried to convince me that that was his boat. To this day, I do not know whether that was his boat or not, but I figured I could fix something and that would enable me to make money to do things in life that we might not have been able to do earlier on.

[00:53:56] We ask a question about clinical errors so that we can all learn from them from that sort of black box thinking in. What would you some of what some of your clinical errors made over the years and what can we all learn from the. I honestly don’t feel as though I’ve made any massive clangers, thankfully. I know some people talk about the wrong tooth and that sort of that sort of thing, although I Dental possible as an undergraduate, I did try and take a take. I think it was a long way out and I managed to bring out the adult tooth underneath it, which are probably straight back and quite quickly. But yeah, I don’t I don’t think clinically because we’ve always tried to work within our limits and I think I get a bit frustrated nowadays when I see dentistry and not work within the limits and try and do stuff that they shouldn’t be doing. And they’ve seen it once on YouTube and try and try and give it a crack and would never try and do that. We’ve always tried to get the knowledge, take little steps, work within ourselves and always be cautious. And that’s something that we really try and get over to our younger associates that we need to work within our limits and we shouldn’t be doing stuff that that is outside of our box and outside of our comfort zone. And I think that takes you a long way. I can’t really think we’ve always had cases that don’t quite go to plan and bridges that the porcelain chips, but nothing that’s really disastrous and nothing that we didn’t plan for failure before the start. I can’t remember any big climb.

[00:55:35] Yeah, I’d say likewise from my side of things. But there are two cases which I do often reflect back on. And not long after a qualified I was lucky enough to go and work in a VTE position in a in a lovely Big Ten Sadri practise in southpaws and my VTE training, which was great to me. And he really let me just get stuck in and I feel a lot of the new graduates these days probably don’t have that level of autonomy to be able to make those mistakes early on and learn from them. But I always remember, you know, fresh out with the books and the textbooks. So it’s, you know, studied about the Dahl effect. And I remember this guy comes in to see me quite an advanced work case. And I thought to myself, right, I’m getting stuck in on this one. The VTE trainer allowed me to go gung ho and I took the decision to have fabricated a Kobol Chrom Dalle appliance, which I like bonded to the ills of the upper arch with Pineview. Now, thankfully,

[00:56:39] This job,

[00:56:40] It served its purpose, but that was two hours of my life that I will never get back drilling a Cobalt Grumdahl appliance off the rails. So that was a that was an eye opener to be very early on. I think the second one that always jumps to mind is I there was a very elegant lady come into this surgery and Southport and she needed a bridge remove. And now, thankfully, this bridge was lower right quadrant. And I was introduced to the first time to a crown and bridge remover. So I took to this bridge with it and unfortunately managed to decolonise one of those lower abutments. And in the 20 years since, I have never gone near a crown and bridge removed.

[00:57:25] Is it one of those spring-Loaded ones or was it one of those wait wait things?

[00:57:30] It was the weight is the weight, and it still sends shivers through my spine. Now that I would like to try to remove a bridge with one of those. So everything’s been sectioned since I was a less well earlier.

[00:57:41] You guys have been in that practise for fifteen years. You must have seen some of your work that you’re not one hundred percent sure that you would repeat that work. Now, you know, things have moved on,

[00:57:53] That sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, certainly, yes. The year we know that Dental trends have changed, you know, early on there was probably a lot more ceramic work done. There was probably a lot more longer span bridges done with more training that’s been done. We’ve probably look at things in a different light. There’d be a lot more implants placed into those scenarios. Now, we might use adult orthodontics much more so now than what we would have done back in two thousand, seven, two thousand and eight. But one thing that is nice to see, though, as you look back at old ceramic cases and when they’ve been done properly, they do well and they tend to give you a lot less headaches than a chip and composite can might do these days. You know, but, you know, was it the right thing to do then? Is it the right thing to do now? Well, opinions will differ, OK, but I think we’ve always wanted to learn. We’ve always wanted to move forward with the trends and with the Times, but also tried to make sure that what we were doing is clinically the right thing to do for that patient.

[00:58:59] So I know you listen to this podcast. So the final questions. And I’ll start with you. But it’s your last day on the planet. You’ve got two kids with you and you need to leave them with three pieces of advice. Will they be? First of all, I think I think honesty is is something that has always been really important to me, and it’s one thing that frustrates me when I don’t see honesty. I think if you try to never tell a lie, you never have to try and explain yourself, because you never have to try and remember the truths and the lies that you’ve told. I think you should always be honest with people. Sometimes you have to hold your hand up and say, I got it wrong. But it was coming from a place of honesty and it was it came from the right place. I would always want my kids to be, to be honest. The second thing would be hard work. And, you know, this is a phrase that hard work pays off and you can outwork most people. Some people are always going to be cleverer than you. But you can can you can you outwork this person in a lot of the challenges in life is just how many hours are you willing to do? How many can you repeat the same thing? Ten thousand times to say if you if you repeat something ten thousand times, you become a master of it.

[01:00:29] That’s a bit of a philosophy with dentistry. But that’s that can be transferred over to kick in free kicks or a driver or whatever you want to be. So the second one would be would be definitely be hard work. And I suppose the last one would be the ethos that we’ve talked about a bit today is is what’s the worst thing that can happen? Go for it if you think, well, the worst thing that can happen is that I can go back to what I was doing before. Well, that’s not a bad place. I’d like to think I was going to have my kids back. So if they tried a big elaborate scheme and it fell flat on the on the face, I’m always gonna have a spare room for them. So don’t be frightened to fail. Give it a crack going back to two thousand and six. That was our philosophy of if this bomb’s within a month, we’ll just go back and get a job somewhere. So those are probably the three things I would say.

[01:01:24] And I think it’s fair to say again, my sentiments would mirror exactly this. But what I want to pass on to my family and young ones, you know, and I think the only things I would probably say in addition to that is yet we know sheer hard work and determination is something that will get you everywhere, you know, and always just do your best on that front. And I would definitely want my kids as well to do what I’ve done, surround themselves by like minded people, surround yourself by people like you can learn from. And that will only help you grow as an individual and push things forward. But I think the other thing I would desperately want to pass on to my little girl is I’m guilty of one thing. And my mom told me this since day one, and it comes definitely from my father, is that I’m guilty of not being able to see the wood for the trees. And that’s what she’s told me for a long, long time. And I think I’m always one of these people who strive in for the next thing and wanting something to be bigger and better than what it was. Whereas I think you really do need to be able to step back and enjoy the here and now. And that’s something I definitely want my daughter to be competitive. I wanted to have drive, but I also wanted to enjoy every step of the journey and appreciate what she’s achieved along the way. And I think that’s something I would I would definitely like to change in her from what I have learnt locally.

[01:02:46] And that even if it was your last day on the planet and you passed and then somebody spoke about you, what would you want your legacy to be? Darren was complete the sentence.

[01:03:00] I would say as a dentist, I want Darren to be regarded as the clinician who doing everything he possibly could for every patient and not just to deliver the best possible experience and the best possible treatments. As a friend, I would like to be regarded as the person who my friends could turn to. And as a father and a husband, I would like to be the person that they needed the most and done what he could when he could to provide and deliver and to be the lovely.

[01:03:34] And what about you? And they how would you like to be remembered? I think first and foremost, as a someone that wasn’t too serious or could get it done, that was relaxed or can lose it ends, you know, someone to try to enjoy that the time on the way as well, someone that didn’t get too caught up with the little nitty gritty and just try to take a bit of a bit of a step back. But someone that you can always rely on, I suppose someone that if it was ever needed, I would step up, I would do what’s required. I wouldn’t be frightened to get stuck in and go that extra mile if it was really needed. And let’s say tomorrow, somebody said to Andy, you’ve got three days left. And you had your health and everything in place. What would you do for those 30 days? I would I would get on a plane if we could. I’ve always loved to travel. I’m fascinated by seeing different places. I’m someone who just likes to walk around and see different stuff. I get bored sitting down on a beach and my wife just loves to go and sit in the sunshine and chill. And I’m pasternack. Come and go and do this. And I go and see that. I love to see different cities and places to go to South America, um, probably Australia. I took about four months out after I worked for about a year and a half and three friends went and travelled all the way up the East Coast, went down to Melbourne. Just just there was no tomorrows. And for that one time in your life, having no tomorrows was something small. No idea. Don’t let tomorrow get in the way of today. Let’s just absolutely kill it today. Do whatever we want whenever we feel like it’s just such such an amazing mindset to not have to worry about tomorrow. And, you know, my four months in Australia was definitely not tomorrow’s, and yet we didn’t leave much in the tank of that four months of work.

[01:05:46] What about yourself? We are in 30 days left on the planet. Full health. I think I would do my damnedest to get to fill a plane with all of my nearest and dearest, and I would be jetting off to the sunshine and I would be doing everything in my powers to have the best possible signoff. I’d want it to be just one hell of a party and then being able to relax, chill again. I think the whole idea of tomorrow not being of concern would be an absolute ideal. But to be surrounded by your nearest and dearest and a sunset setting. Yeah, that would be where I would want to be. I’d probably throw in some sort of fast cars into that as well with me being a little bit of a petrol head and still have a car mechanic. I’d want that to play a part in that too. But a family would definitely be at the forefront of that.

[01:06:37] And friends for guys, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time today. It’s been great.

[01:06:45] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:07:01] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

In this episode, we welcome expert insight from James Martin into growing investments and trading in stocks and shares. James discusses his successes with Bitcoin and Crypto and his day job as a dental associate.

James also tells us about his journey from Northern Ireland to Leeds, setting up his own podcast and creating engaging courses.



“You know, Father Ted. That is like the zenith of comedy in Ireland. OK, and whilst I’m not saying that people in England, you know, they don’t get it or they don’t like it, but I don’t know if you quite call it the pinnacle of comedy, this very there’s other things like I don’t really know. I think I really like Peepshow. I think that’s the pinnacle of comedy..”  – James Martin


In This Episode


01.51 – Northern Ireland to Leeds

03.31 – Yorkshire Culture

06.08 – Learning dentistry

07.26 – The basics of investment

08:41 – Trading

13:26 – Reading recommendations

15:02 – Diversifying your portfolio

18:52 – Bitcoin

22:07 – The value of money

24:03 – Legitimisation

28:22 – Starting in Bitcoin

32:37 – Time frames

34:25 – Spread betting

36:57 – To own or not to own

39:21 – Being a happy associate

41:42 – Tax

45:20 – ISAs

53:35 – Wrong wallets

56:57 – General dentistry

01:07:00 – Enlighten

01:01:18 – Dentists Who Invest podcast

01:07:07 – Investment tips

01:10:10 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About James Martin


James Martin is a 29-year-old GDP who founded the online community and podcast Dentists Who Invest.

After training at Tipton, James has proven to be hugely dedicated to his work achieving a PGCert in restorative and pending PGDip in operative dentistry after CoViD-19 restrictions are alleviated.

Working in private practice from a young age allowed him to gain a broad depth of experience far beyond what could be expected of a typical GDP. These treatments include treating the organic causes of TMD (not just automatic referral), full mouth rehabs, clear aligners, experience with CADCAM and Enlighten whitening and much more.

In his spare time, he enjoys playing football, going to the gym and reading as well as socialising with friends and family.

[00:00:00] You can buy companies which mine Krypto and own crypto, and those prices tend to rally and fluctuate with the crypto bull market. So one that there’s been a lot of hype around is one called Argo Blockin. And I wish I would have bought this thing a lot sooner because it’s went up a thousand percent since about six months ago, which is crazy. OK, I still don’t think the bull market for crypto is over personally. Quite a few reasons that are not for people with. But suffice to say, I still think it’s got some leeway to grow.

[00:00:30] All right. I’m not a financial advisor.

[00:00:32] By the way, this is Denzel Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in history. Your highs and lows include Saline King.

[00:00:58] It gives me great pleasure to introduce James Martin to the latest podcast and a different twist on dentistry today. It’s all about investing. James Martin is set up a group, what was it, six months ago?

[00:01:11] Yeah, well, I don’t even think it’s six months quite yet. And yeah, it seems to have somewhat expanded over time. And it’s all centered around dentists and their finances and investing, just as you touched upon there a minute ago, is still sinking in for me. This is quite got to the level that it has. But I’m loving. It is great.

[00:01:31] So dentists who invest is the group and I think we could all do with a bit of advice or help or direction in how we can make our money work a little bit harder for us. So, James, we usually start this off by just sort of asking how you where you grew up, but in your background, how you got into dentistry and then let’s go onto the investment path.

[00:01:51] Totally. Guys, thank you so much for having me. First of all, I’m looking forward to this one. I have my own podcast, but it’s nice to be to show you to be on the other foot a little bit and not take the lead for once and just speak a little bit about myself and get to know you guys. But yeah, sure thing. So I don’t know if anybody’s detected the accent or not yet. I think it’s somewhat when since time. But I am originally from Northern Ireland, so I spent the first 18 years of my life growing up over there. And I then came to Leeds in England when I was 19 to study dentistry. I’m not one of these people who how can I say I don’t know if it was my calling to be a dentist, or at least I didn’t at the time. But I do really like it. And I must say, but I have had this strange journey where it’s kind of ebbed and flowed. I’ve been the guy who loves it. I’ve been the guy who’s less enthused about it many times. But I’m happy that where I am at the minute in life, I do quite like it. But yeah, I came to Leeds in I think it was two thousand and eleven and I don’t actually ever really been to England once before that. So it was a bit of a leap of faith for me. But best decision I ever made, you know, coming to England, seeing it’s quite a different culture from Northern Ireland. I think the people are quite different. It took me a while to adapt. Most definitely. When I go back home, I speak like the queen, according to my granny. But I think that accents are all relative, you know what I mean? Whereas over here I’m like definitely a foreigner. So it’s a bit of a curious one.

[00:03:20] Is that outside of the accent? How do you how do you see a difference through the cultural differences between one hundred percent, the sense of humour, one hundred percent, a sense of humour.

[00:03:31] You know, Father Ted. Yeah. Yeah. That is like the zenith of comedy in Ireland. OK, and whilst I’m not saying that people in England, you know, they don’t get it or they don’t like it, but I don’t know if you quite call it the pinnacle of comedy, this very there’s other things like I don’t really know. I think I really like Peepshow. I think that’s the pinnacle of comedy. I think that’s awesome. But I also like only fools and horses. And to me, that’s the quintessential idea of British humour. And maybe I think that I’ve evolved a little bit as well, because I’ve been over here for so long and I used to not really get only fools and horses when I was I lived over there and I find it quite funny. I’ll put it on just out of interest just to watch it.

[00:04:19] And then also, Yorkshire is the Texas of Britain.

[00:04:23] Yeah, it’s definitely got its own kind of. Yeah. Culture and what have you. Do you know what I found out about Yorkshire culture the other day of what that cheese called? Oh my God. I’ve had a lot of drawing a blank that cheese. And you eat it with the Christmas pudding. Yorkshire cheese.

[00:04:42] No, no, it’s it’s got wensleydale. Yes.

[00:04:48] That freaked me out. That freaked me the hell out. When I find out that you eat that with you with Christmas pudding. I’ve never seen it in my life before.

[00:05:00] It’s not a thing outside of Yorkshire, listen.

[00:05:04] Wow, I thought I thought I understood you guys and then I saw that and just go right back to square one. Back to square one, hand on heart. I’d never seen that before. And maybe that’s me. I don’t know.

[00:05:18] Or maybe that’s just Yorkshire people saying, I really, honestly don’t know that the funny thing about accents, then you go, oh, in the same spot like the Queen. So I grew up in a place called Lake Fiqh, Mancunian accent and then go off to uni, come back and I’m chatting away to my brother on the phone to one of my mates to Oxford and turn to like posh individual. Right. So super posh accent. And then at home, like, I’ll speak to Peyman quite a lot at home. I’m speaking like this, I don’t know Mancunian of whatever I speak to penlight. You turn into a posh you know what, and I’m like a chameleon to my accent, just sense to change. And even on this podcast, you’ll probably find there’ll be some very posh prep and somewhere is Northern Trust. So it’s these things all a bit odd for me.

[00:06:08] It happens. We all do th=at to a degree. I’m with you on that one. I do that to what we like. As a dental student, I was not that committed to dentistry. I was very much the archetype of a student and not I like to go out. My main priority was on the academic side for the first three years. And then I really realised that when you hit fourth and fifth year, the work goes up quite a big notch. And I recognized that I needed to up my game and then I just became fully embroiled in it. And that was the point where I started reading all our books about dentistry, going to extra lectures where there’s opportunities to have them. And maybe I got I got loads more interested in it towards the end. Where are you right now, your associate? Yes, that’s right.

[00:06:57] Ok, so tell us about how this investment so the journey started.

[00:07:02] Yeah, cool. Sure. So I probably did investing the wrong way round in that I traded before what I tried to trade didn’t go very well before I actually started thinking about long term investments, which is the clever way to do it. But that was born out of my total fundamental lack of knowledge about what I was even doing. Quite so. Quick question that James trading long term investment. Just break down the basics for me. Yeah, sure. So I guess an investor is someone who seeks to tie up their money in some sort of asset and look to the very, very long run to gain their profits and accept that there’s a possibility that it may go up and down. But their fundamental philosophy is that most assets go up in value over time for reasons we can go into later if you if you’re interested, so that that is their fundamental philosophy. And people will do that with index funds, bonds, gold, stuff like that, crypto less. So it’s less well established, although I think with Bitcoin it is possible to do that. But anyway, that’s the story for another day or perhaps later on for interest. And then the other thing I was going to say, trading is someone they basically seek to increase their capital over a very short space of time. So you’ll invest with the idea that something is going to go up or if you’re going to short something that is going to go down in value maybe quite soon. So if you’re a day trader, maybe it’ll be the same day. If you’re a swing trader, maybe that’ll be over a few months, or if you’re slightly more a long term holder, then maybe that’ll be a few weeks or so. Maybe that’ll be a few months to years, maybe something like that.

[00:08:41] So you started off trading. Did you lose some money? Did you get any highs? Lows? Did you think you.

[00:08:49] Yeah, well, there was there was a big low. There was a there was a I got into crypto when Bitcoin was on the news the last time it got really big and there was a massive bull market which was towards the end of twenty, seventeen early twenty eighteen. And my story was that I’d heard of Bitcoin. My friend had it in university in twenty twelve and I think he regrets that he didn’t hold it. I think that was one of his biggest regrets in life, that he didn’t hold it because I remember it being two hundred and fifty quid and I remember we were all laughing because we just thought that was extortionate to mean. And yeah my friend had it in university. That’s when I first heard of it and I first heard of the price and it going up and I didn’t really know that much about it or what it was and that tickled my pickle or that kind of got me thinking about it. And then I didn’t really think a whole lot about it for a long time.

[00:09:46] And then when we got to twenty seventeen, when there was this massive bull market and it basically culminated with Bitcoin being on the news quite often being on BBC and people saying things like. It started out in January that year, I think it was about eleven hundred dollars, twelve hundred dollars and it became twenty thousand dollars before the end of the year. And people were saying things like, how much can this thing continue to go up? It’s insane. It was in the newspaper. It had reached that peak saturation where it had culminated in general retail buying. So people who don’t necessarily know that much about investing were getting in. So even at the time, I knew it was a bubble. I knew that it was going to pop basically, and that it couldn’t continue to go up a lot more than what it had done already. So I thought to myself, OK, I know this is a bubble. I’m smarter than this, right? I’m smarter than this. OK, so I’m going to wait for the price to go up a lot.

[00:10:42] Then I’m just going to let it go down and then that’s when I’m going to get and I’m going to buy. OK, but the trouble was I had no idea how long the bear market that follows a bull market in Bitcoin is, and it’s usually about three or four years. OK, so I just thought, yeah, a few months will be all right. So I kind of bought this and I didn’t quite buy it at the peak. Then I held on and I held on and I did everything wrong that someone who’s trading it will try to do. I didn’t put a sale order in. If the price went past a certain limit, I became too attached to a particular crypto because I got emotionally invested in it. That crypto was XP and also another massive red flag about a newbie investor is if you know even a tiny amount about crypto, you’ll also know that XP is not really a project that a lot of people trust. So as far as the rookie mistakes go, it was like I had a big lesson. I was just taking them all off. But I didn’t even know that at the time. And I wish I would have just sold it, to be honest, if it’s a total waste of money in the end.

[00:11:49] And then I wound up transferring most of it to the wrong wallet and I lost it basically. So, again, another huge a huge no no. Another huge mistake. So that kind of got me thinking. And I thought, what separates these people who know quite a lot about crypto and they’re able to make money versus me is obviously a knowledge gap. I’m not inspired this journey into reading and learning about what money is and what crypto is, because if you know what money is, crypto starts to make a lot more sense. And then it just went from there. And I don’t just buy crypto. I don’t think that everybody should put their life savings and crypto. I do enjoy trading it, but that’s just my inclination or proclivity, I suppose. But what I do is I do some investing as well. I buy indexes, bonds and gold, OK? And those are things that you can seek to increase. You can seek to use to increase your capital over time and possibly act as a pension fund. But again, it all depends on your beliefs in the market. Hope that was a good answer I found, because I felt like a wall of water down there.

[00:12:52] When you said you went from being a total amateur to it sounds like you kind of know yourself. Now, if I was a total amateur, I wouldn’t get involved in investment. Have you got a few resources like books and things that you should read?

[00:13:07] One hundred percent, one hundred percent, and you’ve hit the nail on the head when you asked me about resources, I think books are the ultimate resource because of how much information that is condensed into. It’s basically distilled knowledge from an expert. And yeah, you can watch YouTube videos, but you’ll never know until you start reading a lot of books. But it may maybe your knowledge just won’t be as farsighted. I think personally and I like physical books as well, because what you can do is you could put Post-it on them and then what?

[00:13:36] What are some books like? What would be a good starting point was a good book.

[00:13:39] Yeah, sure. So yeah, one of my favorite books. I like the physical books because you can actually put posters in it and my favorite book of all time, people are going to start thinking that me and this guy have some sort of business arrangement because I talk about it so much. But It’s Hard on the World by Andrew Craig. And the reason why that is such a good book is that it presumes that you have no knowledge beforehand of what investing is, what money is. All of these things it talks about what the limits, why there are massive drawbacks in keeping all your wealth in cash, which I was one hundred percent that person before. And it talks about how the stock market and certain investments because of high cash is created and printed over time. They’re inherently predisposed to go up in value. And you can take advantage of this effect to multiply wealth and have a pension pot when you’re older and it’s hard to do it safely. And he actually makes the point in this book that it’s actually safer to diversify than it is to keep all your money in cash, which kind of flips on its head when most people look at it. And that was a mind blowing thing for me.

[00:14:47] So I’m going to ask some silly questions because I’m totally cool. People always say diversify your portfolio to limit your risk.

[00:14:56] Does that not limit your upside to a can?

[00:15:00] But I think you have to look over what time frame you want to draw profit. OK, so someone might come get me get rich quick.

[00:15:08] Yeah, yeah. We’re on the same page. Nice one.

[00:15:12] I think the thing with that is the problem is you have to have a plan before you go into it and you have to think to yourself, over what period of time am I likely to make some money or over what period of time am I expecting to draw some profits? It so let’s say if you’re someone who’s a trader to actually create something, I don’t think a lot of people realize just how much time you have to spend monitoring it and setting trade alert. And it’s basically a black hole for your time, and especially for a lot of a lot of people listen to this will be Dentists’, OK? And we’re already time per people the number of hoops we have to jump through just to be a dentist. And when you kind of keeping patients happy, et cetera, et cetera, it’s very difficult to do, I think, personally. So I think what you have to do is you have to say to yourself, over what period of time am I looking to draw a profit? And if you’re not thinking about doing that in the short term, it’s easier to spread your risk and diversify. Does that make sense? And yet you might be the person who buys a lot of stocks and you might get very wealthy.

[00:16:13] But it makes some sense. It makes some sense. But let’s say I let’s imagine I think Bitcoin is the thing to invest in. Yeah. And this AFCO one hundred thousand dollars to invest and you come to me say the whole hundred thousand in Bitcoin, thirty thousand in Bitcoin and then spread to other seventy thousand of course homes and stocks and properties or whatever. Yeah. It’s my information was right that Bitcoin is going to go up. Only thirty thousand of my cash is going to understand the downside risk. But surely the upside is.

[00:16:43] Well it is, but then it’s about capturing the right train at the right time, you know what I mean? So you’re quite right. I think Bitcoin is probably going to rally for a few months more. But the bear market that follows Bitcoin, it usually draws down 80 percent in value. So, yeah, I do see I do see entirely where you’re coming from. I think at that point you have to a know a lot about the particular asset that your investment and know when to get out, which not everybody does. And B, also just cross your fingers a little bit because investing is a bit more of a well, there’s there’s a risk to that, isn’t there? It’s not a guarantee. Whereas if you if you spread it across other things, then you don’t have to be that involved with how you manage it. And that’s why it can be beneficial for most people. And remember, the goal is the goal is just to make money overall long enough over a certain period of time. The goal is not even to be the best. The goal is just to be better than cash. Does that answer your question? I hope it does.

[00:17:41] Yes, I think it does, and I’d like to just dig a bit deeper into Krypto James because until I read, I read a book called The Bitcoin Standard, and until I read that, I thought crypto was some darker a load of bollocks, basically. Yeah. And then I read that and the whole money story as well. Right. How it was the value of money, how you print more, you devalue fiat currency, et cetera, et cetera, and how valuable something like Bitcoin could be. Now, to me, I’m one of these people who super detailer and say I’m not the sort of guy who’s just going to chuck a hundred grand into Bitcoin without knowing it inside out, or at least so. So I’m spending a lot of time now reading books, watching things, etc., but I’m still incredibly wet behind the ears. What I’d like you to do is just give us a give us a summary of, first of all, what Bitcoin is, why it’s going up in value. And then also just a bit of insight into these old coins, so to speak. So all the coins and I’ve heard people do in 10x hundreds on these other coins, but everyone’s just talking about Bitcoin.

[00:18:52] I think the biggest to answer your question, I heard a really nice description of how Bitcoin works the other day, which ties in the fundamentals of what it is, but also it’s in a kind of a way that we can relate to. So if you think about a bank, a bank has a ledger in it. And let’s go back to what the sixteen hundred is. When we had Italian banks that were first kind of gaining traction, whatever. So in the bank, you’d have a big book called A Ledger, OK? And in that ledger there would be a scribe. Maybe there would be a back up of the ledger. I don’t know, something like that. Just so that they could compare it. You’d have a person who would write down Mr. Jones or is this much money? He’s just given someone else this much money. Now he has this much. All the transactions were held in there and there needed to be a record of that because no one could retain that information. All right. Now, imagine a modern bank that stored in a computer, OK? The transactions, the how much money there is in every according to what, et cetera, et cetera. It’s all on a big computer. OK, now what Bitcoin is take that computer, make it into many computers that are spread throughout the world that are all talking to each other and confirming this ledger at the same time. And also that no one owns because it is decentralized, of course. And that’s what Bitcoin is. I hope that does not make sense for of people. And I think that’s the nicest way of explaining it succinctly.

[00:20:19] Yeah. From from what I’ve read is that the block chain is essentially the ledger. Yeah. Which is a record of every single transaction that’s there for life, as I understand it. Yeah. And the whole decentralization of it is basically you’re not tied down to NatWest or whoever it is, it’s and it’s run by an open source community of miners or computers or whatever you want to call them.

[00:20:49] So there actually is a five man team that the guy, Satoshi Nakamoto, the alias of the individual or people, group of people who created it, passed on the rights to OK, so but the miners have the say as to who implements the software because it’s and it’s just it’s consensus. So you’d have to get the majority of miners to agree to a change as well. Makes sense. Yeah.

[00:21:17] So I think to answer your question, the most amazing thing that I learned about money that allowed me to make a lot more sense of what Bitcoin is, was the fact that money only so money when I spend money, I mean pawns on a currency, not gold and silver, which can also be money, but I mean specifically currency. Once upon a time, you could trade your currency. A British one British pound is a pound of gold. That’s what it was. OK, they changed that in nineteen fourteen. They unpegged the value of the point to the gold to fight Germany. They needed more money but they didn’t have enough gold. So when you know that, that only retained its value because people after that the pound meant nothing, OK, they had Bretton Woods, which was something slightly different, but that’s now gone.

[00:22:07] But after that point, there’s no actual value that that has, apart from the fact that other people agree that it has value. Do you see what I mean? Because if you go to a bank, you can’t get gold. Gold is the fundamental money. And again, people only think gold has value because it looks pretty. It actually has very limited use. So value is something that’s actually more of a consensus in society. And when you know that when you know that value comes from consensus, why can something like Bitcoin not have value as well? Which is suppose? To be a in a deflationary inherent store of value over time, do you see what I mean?

[00:22:46] Because no one can arbitrarily created Silver Strip from understand obviously with gold scarcity as well, I assume plays a big role in its inherent value. And then, as you mentioned, with the gold standard that you used to be able to assume and walk into a bank and say, I can have my gold worth in this right.

[00:23:05] I promise to pay the bearer on demand the value of one pound of gold. That’s what it said on British banknotes. But it doesn’t anymore.

[00:23:13] Yes, but it doesn’t. And so you could back that up. And then. And now. Now it’s like you say, it’s been unpegged. And what is the value in Bitcoin? It’s scarcity as well. The fact that there’s only, say, twenty one million coins.

[00:23:28] Partly, partly so.

[00:23:30] There is five things that people attribute its value to. So scarcity is one of them previously speed of transactions, cost of transactions because it’s cheaper. And then you might also say, well, scarcity is the fifth one tied on talk our store a store of value. OK, so those are it’s five use cases as such.

[00:23:54] What about crime? About crime with the with this digital currency? I’m sure this is it’s a really good way to wash money.

[00:24:03] Yeah. I mean, ultimately, bitcoin is only psuedo psuedo, private, OK, because you still have a publicly available address, which if someone takes hard enough, they can find that it’s linked to your IP address. So then you have to get into virtual private networks and things like that. Inevitably, there is going to be some people who use it for that means because it’s a peer to peer system. But I think that with dollars as well and porns, you’re always going to get those bad actors no matter what I feel like, because Bitcoin has been around for so long, it legitimizes itself longer and longer as time goes on. I think it’s inevitable that you’re going to have some bad actors involved with it just because of what drew you back to.

[00:24:58] I’ve never invested in have a list of no investment.

[00:25:03] Now, what do I have to do but just break that down for someone who’s never done it before.

[00:25:10] What does someone like me. Sure, sure. Sure, sure. So I think the first thing to do is, is to work out how much you are prepared to invest just broadly, not just in crypto, and then only attribute a small portion of that to crypto because no one ultimately knows where it’s going to go. And it’s best to diversify, of course. So a rule of thumb, just shooting from the hip. Maybe you might like to have six months to a year off cash reserves that you can use should there be a rainy day, should you lose your job, et cetera, et cetera, just so that you’re protected? I mean, even though cash has all these issues and problems that we that people in the Bitcoin community philosophically disagree with, the fact of the matter is, if you go to the shop, they don’t ask for Bitcoin, they ask for points, you know what I mean? At least for the time being, and spread your risk, of course. Then after that, you might say, alright, well, I’ve got my cash reserve, my emergency fund. Maybe I’ll look to invest and grow my money over time, which is fine. And then you might like to say, what’s my risk profile like? What am I expecting to get out of crypto? Am I someone who’s going to go in and get when I think that the the bull market is over, which it probably will be in about six or seven months, it usually rallies for ten months after it breaks its all time high.

[00:26:28] We’re already about two or three months into that. OK, so are you someone who’s going to be monitoring it and try to take some of your money off the table when you think it comes to the end of the bull market? Or are you someone who wishes to buy it because you believe in the long run that this is going to be the global reserve currency? This is going to be something special, and you wish to own a part of that and you wish to protect your wealth in that fashion. There’s a really interest not to go off too much of a tangent. There’s an interesting website called Block Fine, which you can get a loan in cash, OK? And you can use your Bitcoin as collateral. And because it’s a loan, there’s zero tax on it.

[00:27:08] So say I put up one Bitcoin, I get forty thousand dollars for it. That’s my loan. Obviously I pay that back with interest on it, but pay it back with interest on it. I still have my bitcoin, OK, and then I can just use that bitcoin as collateral further down the line, which is really interesting. So this is something that’s quite ushe. I only became aware of this about six months ago. So you might say to yourself, actually, I want to hold Bitcoin long term and use it as collateral for loans. I really I don’t know or you might like to say, actually, I believe in this as a pension. I wish to hold part of this on this for for this.

[00:27:42] I’ve decided I’m going to buy some Bitcoin. I’ve got my 50 grand. What I do next.

[00:27:47] Ok, fair enough. The kind of meat and potatoes we actually logistically do. OK, fair enough. So I would first of all, find a reputed website on which to buy it. I personally like the website Cracken, so it has a UK based, has got a UK outlet or branch or whatever, and you can send Pynes to it, you can buy Bitcoin directly in point. What I like as well is that when you take your money, your bitcoin out of the exchange you pay for, well, you don’t pay a percentage, you pay 10 points and it’s capped at that limit. So if you’re putting over a Grendon, then you begin to benefit from that arrangement at that point, because normally it’s only one percent are normally they will charge you one percent to withdraw or not point one percent in those realms. So Coinbase is like one percent, which is quite high finance and things like that are usually like point one percent to withdraw your Bitcoin. So your benefit from an economy of scale at that point. And then you can just put your Bitcoin on a wallet.

[00:28:50] What does that mean? It was actually a wallet. Yeah. So a wallet is just a digital literally just a digital wallet, a digital kind of place that you can access your bitcoin from, which only you have custody of, not the exchange, because there has been cases in the past where exchanges get hacked. The reason I recommend cracken is because it’s never been hacked and it also has bank tier level security. It’s recognized as a bank and you US law. You can only get this legal status when you have a certain level of cybersecurity. I don’t, to my knowledge, know of any other exchange that has not and therefore it is to surface. Some people are content to leave it on an exchange. That’s that’s just a philosophical kind of maybe like a difference there. Some people the true the hardcores on the people who, while they see Bitcoin more from the point of view, have taken back control, those people will never be content to leave it on an exchange. So then that’s a USB drive, then a cool wallet is a USB drive. Yeah. So that’s considered the highest level of security because from your public address there is another sixty four digit on letter Freers, which is your private key. You can turn a private key into a public address, but you can’t figure out you can’t unscramble a public key to figure out a private address.

[00:30:17] OK, so this private key that you have, this is yours. You never share that with anyone. And that is your password to access the block chain where your crypto is stored. And the reason people really like called wallets is because those are not private key. That never leaves that wallet, whereas most wallets, the private key is actually stored on the computer. So if someone has is able to hack your computer and you don’t have a strong enough security suite that can, in theory, take your Bitcoin. What happens if you lose your wallet as long as you have the private key, which you would always back up? So what they want most wallet providers do is to give you a 20 forward seat phrase. You write that down because otherwise is just sixty four letters and numbers of gibberish, you know what I mean? It’s just something a bit more tangible. And then from that, they make you calculate your private key on the wallet. But it never it never leaves this little USB drive. The computer just uses the wallet to access it. It doesn’t actually ever get that information. And that’s why it’s called wallet. And they’re considered to be the safest.

[00:31:26] There’s some examples of questions you’ll get you get you must be getting a lot of questions from Dantas, right? Yeah, and I noticed you said, of course, for Bitcoin buying Bitcoin as well.

[00:31:37] Yeah, that’s a work in progress. Is that one of the first two making, of course, is a lot of work.

[00:31:43] Well, I kind of I realize now I have maybe bitten off a lot more than I could chew.

[00:31:48] I think as well as just when I want to make it of a good standard that people are going to actually learn. And it’s kind of one of those things. It’s almost like a black hole. And I think I’m in danger of maybe putting too much information in at this point. So I need to just figure out how can I make this really useful, but also make it still accessible to most people. And it takes time. It really does.

[00:32:12] What would you say? What would you say the most common mistakes that people make when it comes to investing?

[00:32:18] I would say so. Broadly speaking, investing, trading, investing, whatever you like. I would say the very first thing is to have an idea of what sort of time frame you want to get your money out, OK? Because if you go into something and you know that you believe that inherently it’s going to go up over value over time. The S&P Five Hundred Index in America created in nineteen fifty seven on average, went up by 10 percent every year on average. All right. Now there’s going to be Dawna’s obviously, but on average, it went up 10 percent every year. So when you know that piece of information, you are so much more immune to the negative, the negative press and the negativity that’s chucked at you because you’ll go into something and you’ll say, OK, I have a Daunia, OK, is two in it. And Wall Street went went to pot, whatever.

[00:33:09] But you’ll know that if you wait a long enough time, you’ll be able to increase your money. So for me, if I go into something and I know what I’m investing in and I know over what period of time I want to draw money, then I can draw a lot of.

[00:33:25] Yes, I won’t lose any sleep at night. And those mistake people make. What you’re saying is, first of all, is to define that period of time. Definitely. Absolutely.

[00:33:36] Yeah. Time frame. Biggest mistake, I think, as well as that is not being prepared to understand just how much you have to monitor something to understand its daily price fluctuations and maybe expecting that you can be ready to make a quick buck. But again, not really having an idea of how much you have to know about something to do that I think is all about picking one asset class and just learning the absolute hell out of it to make money and having an idea of just how much time you have to spend front of the computer to do that.

[00:34:05] And if it’s a dent, if you’re a dentist and you probably don’t have that much time, then understanding that I’m not trying to be that person.

[00:34:13] And I can imagine moments where you’d be caught in the middle of a long ground threat and missed some moment in the market, also some lawsuits.

[00:34:25] And I recently read a story from Robbie Burns Naked Trader book, the one about spread betting. Spread betting is not for the faint of heart, let me tell you that. Oh, my God. If you have a professional account, as they’ve recently changed the rules, but you used to be able to do this with an amateur client. No, it’s just a professional. So it’s a little bit more ring-fence. But when you trade on leverage, your risk is unlimited. Your risk is not just the money that you put in. OK, so if you if you buy 10 grand of shares and you have 10 leverage, then if that moves 10 grand against you, then you’ve literally you’ve lost 100 grand. And yeah, they’ll collapse your trade after a while, but not before you have a lot of money. OK, now I was written about some that it actually was a dentist as well. He specifically mentions his friend who was a dentist in his book, and he managed to lose something like 70 grand after a one hour dental appointment because it moves so fast against him and so hard that his stop loss, it didn’t even trigger because there wasn’t enough buy, there wasn’t enough buy orders in the market, which can hardly be guaranteed. Well, yeah, that’s it. Apparently you can take a box to guarantee it. And he didn’t take it out, but it’s safe to say he did take that box. And while that’s the sort of stuff that I don’t I don’t have the nerve to do stuff like that, monist Brad Batton is probably not for me, really.

[00:35:55] I mean, the clues, the clues in the name, like betting.

[00:35:59] Betting. Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, that’s it.

[00:36:02] So listen, but if you you’re an associate now and most associates would be I mean, let’s face it, no one in investing is have some money to invest. Right. Spend spend less than you earn most to be doing fine. You, the ones who invest will be doing that number to someone like you. OK, most associates would be looking to start taking practice or whatever. And have you had to look at that? I mean, you know, looking at the way you’re thinking now, starting the practice is going to take a lot of your time. And I guess it’s a risk return kind of question I’m asking. But, you know, if you just say you’ve saved two hundred grand, you could put that into practice. You could put that leverage it onto the property, you could buy some Bitcoin or whatever. Have you thought to yourself which way you’re going to sell?

[00:36:57] It sounds like you know why it’s so curious that you asked me that? Because I was just thinking about this yesterday. I personally don’t think I would like to own a dental practice. And it’s something I’ve been weighing up in my head for quite a while. And I think if I was to look at things in terms of return on investment over a long enough period of time, I first of all, don’t think that that would be the most effective place that one could put it for a lot of people. And I think that they’d be surprised to learn that once they start reading just what you can do with it, when you have a little bit of knowledge and good on an expectation of what to what might happen. Now, that’s just for me. Other people might be different, I think, as well as that. When you run a dental practice, the people management side, there’s so many moving parts in a dental practice.

[00:37:52] It just seems to me like it would be very frazzling for someone who owns it. You have to keep all the dentists happy people. The nurse is happy and you have to keep your patients happy. And by the way, there’s thousands of those, OK, you know what I mean?

[00:38:04] There’s so much regulation. It’s like it’s like a hand on your neck. It’s like I can’t see that getting better any time soon. And I just think even if I could and let’s turn that on what it’s head turn on its head. What I was saying just a minute ago, even if I could make less money from investing versus owning a dental practice, I think the lifestyle than investing really sensibly in stocks and things over a long enough period of time and having an understanding of that, the lifestyle out of Fauji is there’s a big argument to be made about that in itself, you know what I mean?

[00:38:40] Taking back your free time, et cetera, et cetera. And these are just conclusions that I’ve come to. People might be listening. I’m I might even be wrong. I don’t know. I just think from the lens and perspective I have on it at the minute, I just don’t think it’s for me. I’m always going to be happy. I’ll be a dedicated associate, you know. And honestly, I really love dentistry. I love it. I love doing a good job.

[00:39:03] Almost like two, three years out of university.

[00:39:07] Just over five, actually. No, no, I beg your pardon. Just coming up to five.

[00:39:10] Just come over up. That might change for you as well.

[00:39:15] Thank you for the journey back. The journey, isn’t it? And I might look, I might change my opinion totally six months time.

[00:39:21] The reason why a lot of associates become principal example is to do so little time to control. And if you’re happy, you also settle in long term associates. Sometimes we’ve seen on this podcast about the superstars who want to do their own marketing and control their own destiny in that sense. But I mean, I’m interested in this journey that is gone down now that you’ve decided to become an expert so quickly. I mean, as far as I can remember, last time Bitcoin was a twenty thousand day before yesterday. Yeah. Are you that kind of person that you jumps deep into things?

[00:40:09] Yeah, I am. I am. I think I feel like for me, I’d rather concentrate on the two things that I’ve spent most of the last three or four years learning about or dentistry and investing know. And I feel like if you’re going to for me, if I want to do it because I realize the power of it, I know if I put a lot of effort in that, it’ll be worth it on my behalf. And I feel like as well, for me personally, I’m very conscious that I’m only twenty nine and there’ll be people listening to us who are old, had no say. What does this guy really know about investing? I know what the books say, but have I been investing for so many years that I’ve made millions from stocks and shares. I can never say that to someone, but all I can say is that I have met people who’ve used these principles who are much older than me, and they have got to where they want to be in that respect. So if we can’t go off evidence like that, I don’t know what we can go off. I feel like the crypto thing is when you’re maybe someone more of my generation being my age plays into your hands a little bit more because you’re perhaps portrayed to be more ofay with computers. And that’s not why I went down that path, persay. But I feel like maybe that’s why that my who I am, it’s sort of helps in that respect a little bit about knowing things, about crypto and trading it and et cetera, et cetera.

[00:41:42] James talked to me about portfolio or what you would consider to be a safe spread of portfolio. And I want you to talk particularly about tax wrappers as well, because Dentists’ right. No matter what gains you’re going to realize, more often than not, the top end of the of the tax bracket. Right. As as a practitioner or as an associate, you’re going to be paying at the top end of the market with tax. So just talk to us about how you can sort of maximize those gains and minimize taxes in the best possible way. But also as a modern portfolio, let’s say you had 30, 40, 50 grand a year to invest. What would what would be a safe long term portfolio look like percentage so much in stocks and shares in the S&P 500 and how that can be maximized so that any gains that you get, you minimising the the downside on the tax code.

[00:42:43] Fair enough. So first of all, if we look at what a portfolio is, different people, different people will want different things out of it. So let’s look at someone who’s my age, who’s twenty nine. My priority is to grow my capital because I haven’t worked for as long as someone is 50 and 60, I won’t have as much money as someone like that. And as well as that, I’m able to take more risk even over a period of the medium term, maybe five years, 10 years. So even if there’s a crash, chances are my money is going to recover because of what we said earlier about the S&P. Five hundred it increase in 10 percent every year over time. What if I buy in at two thousand and it you know, it didn’t recover again for however many years after that. So for me personally, my portfolio might be geared, geared a little bit to more towards risk than someone who’s a little bit older than me. So there is a rule in investing. Now, this is just a broad rule. It’s called the rule of one hundred. So you might say you take your age and you say my age is the point of the percentage of assets that I want to put into lower risk investments and the number that’s left over from deducting it from one hundred. That’s the figure that I’m happy to take more risk with. So for someone like me, it might be 70, 30, and I’ll say, OK, 30 percent in bonds, 70 percent in stocks, something like that.

[00:44:04] Because stocks can fluctuate more in the medium term. They still go up in value long over long enough periods of time. The. Don’t forget, you also get dividends from stocks as well, which you can reinvest to OK, and bonds, maybe I’ll just want to preserve my capital a little bit. So, again, I feel like that’s something that we could go into a huge amount of detail about. But I’ll draw a line under that there and just say that for people who wish to invest, it’s more by having an idea of what you want to get out of it, bearing in mind and bearing in mind your risk profile and bearing in mind your age. I hope that was sufficient for that one, because I feel like I could I could talk a lot more on that. But there’s two other things that I want to flesh out there. You’ve asked about tax wrappers in the U.K. We have this amazing, two amazing tax wrappers called a sip called and I called ISA accounts. OK, now there’s different types of ISA, but I think that one that everybody should own is a stocks and shares ISA or maybe most people should own stocks and shares ISA and a stocks and shares ISA. You get taxed before you go in because it’s your income tax and what’s left goes into your cash, goes into your stocks and shares.

[00:45:20] Isa, you can put up to 20 grand a year in ISIS. Anything you make in that isa you can make wild profits, you can make a million and that isa and it’s all yours because it’s all free. OK, I don’t know if you guys have an ISA. I do. Yeah I’m afraid so. We NICE’s though. Can you you could buy exposure to crypto which is something slightly different but you cannot anymore. OK, so recently there’s been a ruling by the FCA on something called Contracts for Difference, which is owning. It’s equivalent to saying I give you something that is imaginary. And that used to be how people get exposure to crypto through those ices. You can’t do that anymore. So to my knowledge, there is no way that you can gain exposure directly to crypto through an ISA. However, you can buy companies which mine crypto and own crypto, and those prices tend to rally and fluctuate with the crypto market. So one that there’s been a lot of hype around is one called Aagot Block Blockin. And I wish I would have bought this thing a lot sooner because it’s went up a thousand percent since about six months ago, which is crazy. OK, I still don’t think the bull market for crypto is over personally. Quite a few reasons that are not for people with. But suffice to say, I still think it’s got some leeway to grow. All right.

[00:46:46] I’m not a financial advisor, by the way.

[00:46:49] There’s no dispute on that.

[00:46:52] But I’m just saying there is another one called Riot Block Chain, which is a similar company. They don’t have quite as much as Aagot. And there was another one I was on I that I only learned about the other day. But the name escapes me, but I haven’t actually invested in Riot. I have got a little bit of Aagot and I was slightly late to the party, but I still have some money.

[00:47:13] I do plan to get out of Aagot before that becomes well before the end of the bull market. I am very conscious that I’m not actually buying Bitcoin, I’m buying a company and to put a lot in any one company. Well, what if the company goes to pot? What if something goes wrong there? I’d be I’d be very careful about that, you know what I mean? But it’s a nice way to spread some risk, definitely. So that’s one thing that I hand on heart think that most people should own a stocks and shares ISA as a first port of call us to invest in. On top of that, you do get twelve thousand three hundred capital gains allowance so you can always invest and take advantage of that. And until you make twelve thousand three hundred in profit, then you won’t owe any tax. OK, and then after that you do have something called a sip self invested personal pension, which is something that it’s got a slightly different erm compared to a stocks and shares isa, because the idea is that it’s supposed to reduce your tax. So when you get into the additional rate tax band, which is like one hundred and fifty grand, it becomes a lot more efficient to own that. However, there is something where an accountant will have to, you’ll have to ask your accountants on this one. But when you earn I think it’s roughly one hundred and twenty thousand, I can’t remember the exact figure. Something weird happens that your personal lines diminishes. And when you get to that point, you actually only for every point that you earn, you only get thirty three P someone told me. So if you’ve got your SIPP because you can use your SIPP, you can put money into your set and it reduces your, your tax band or how much you’re expected to pay in tax, then it becomes that much more efficient to use it at that point than it does prior. So again, something to talk to your accountant about, definitely worth thinking about. I think a stocks and shares ISA for most people is your first port of call.

[00:49:08] And then when it comes to stocks and shares, the average Joe, even me. Exactly what I’m doing right, so well, what do you invest in? You get lucky and stick your shares in Taslim about a year ago. I wish, I wish a lot of people I know go to I can try and get them to run a portfolio for them. What do you do, the same James or you at that point where actually you’re savvy enough to know the highs and lows and make your own decisions and be in control of that?

[00:49:42] There are some people there are some efface that I’ve come across that have this really nice arrangement where you just pay them upfront and then they kind of make a set and forget portfolio, which is a nice arrangement, by the way. And will I ever know as much as someone who does it every day? No chance. OK, so those EFAs are right there. Some of them I have met personally. I do believe they’re very knowledgeable and would probably do a good job and they might save you a little bit of the legwork. OK, the more traditional arrangement is, as you’ve said, they charge you a percentage, OK? Now, the problem with charging somebody a percentage is due to the power of compounding over time. This adds up quite a lot. So there is some I believe there was some figures that I had that I recently was looking at. And it’s something like if you have 20 grand, if you invest 20 grand into your stocks and shares, ISA, you do that for 20 years and you have the power of compounding it is like 12 percent.

[00:50:44] Ok, don’t forget, you reinvest in your profits so you’re making more profits from your profits. And apparently if you do that from your profits and from the 20 grand that you’ve put in, you’ll have one point seven million if you add that that a 12 percent return every year. And let’s say you have an efface figure in there and the EFAs figure is like one, two percent, something like that. If you take that down to 10 percent, then after those 20 years, you have one point three million, which is still nothing to be sniffed that, you know what I mean? But it’s quite a market difference in terms of money there. So all I’m saying is that you can get an IFA. A lot of them do struggle to beat the market. OK, so if we look at managed funds versus active funds, people who add the funds that collections of shares that are controlled by some individuals that make decisions on buying and selling, you’d be surprised at the number of those that actually can’t beat the market.

[00:51:38] So I believe in America, if you have ninety three percent of active funds cannot beat the S&P 500, which is just which is basically just the market over a certain period of time. And it’s because of their fees. And we could draw a parallel between that and a financial adviser. Now, again, again, some people will just be more comfortable with offloading that on to someone else. But it’s less that I think that I know more about that. I think that’s slightly an Oregon thing to say, but more that I think that the cards are stacked in my favor myself. I hope that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:52:14] And the compounding argument definitely holds in that sense.

[00:52:18] And having the knowledge obviously, as well on this on this podcast, we kind of ask the question sometimes about these clinical mistakes for you kind of want to hit you is the best thing to say to me.

[00:52:30] Oh, man. So I don’t want to have a fair amount of money in that krypto that I told you about earlier. XP sent it all to the repo. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, it is. Repo. I sent it to the wrong wallet and that’s a synonym for saying in crypto that basically I’m never going to see this money ever again. And I realized that I’d done it and I just I just closed the laptop and I didn’t mean crypto. We weren’t friends for about a month after that. I just I couldn’t even bring myself to look at it. I was so upset. It was quite a it was a fair amount of money. And what you have to bear in mind is the money that you lose is also the gains that you miss out on further down the line when it does start going well. So maybe you can tell my voice. I’m still getting over it a little bit, but it’s OK.

[00:53:23] It’s OK. Is there somebody out there with a wallet that just got out there for free, but that went up in the precise amount that I that I sent to them.

[00:53:35] Their balance went up that day by that precise amount. Yes, there will be. There will be. So, as I said, possible you go wallet address. Yeah. So I know because so you’ve got a wallet address, the wallet addresses. Sixty four characters in numbers. OK, so if you send it to an invalid wallet address it’ll just get bounced back to you. OK, if you send it to an address that’s valid then someone’s balance will go up so you won’t get it back and it’s gone. Are you with me. Yeah. So I didn’t I know that someone has this because I didn’t get it back.

[00:54:13] How did you even stickied a valid wallet address that belonged to someone else and wasn’t yours?

[00:54:21] So what I did was I copied it and I pasted it into my finance account. But I can only theorize that I must have hit a key at some point or I must have copied and pasted the wrong address, just not really paying attention. I usually do a small task transaction nowadays to understand that I’ve got the right address before forwarding more money to it. But this was when I was a little bit more naive, a little bit went on the years I knew last about what I was doing. This was a few years ago. So yeah, it happened. I learned the hard way. I hope I’ve actually had a few people contact me before who’ve done it. Or you can. What you can also do is you can also send it on the wrong network. And then again, it can while it’s gone really at that point. So anybody is listening. By all means, crypto is a fun thing to do. Please, please, please send a test transaction every single time until you know that that wallet works, because I could have saved myself a lot of hassle if I would have done that in the first place. Or this is why a lot of people don’t like to take the picture off the exchange because they don’t have to worry about transferring it around.

[00:55:37] What about the opposite? What about once when you did a great Trigorin percentage gain that you’ve had on something?

[00:55:45] My best friend, I’ve had a few things do ten times before, a few things. It’s kind of time frame. Yeah, well, see, this is something that I was going to say. So in crypto, I think a lot of people hear about the monumental overnight games, but this was over the course of about two to three weeks. Actually, it was it was Bynum’s coin. It was on the edge of anybody’s listening. If you follow crypto, you’ll know that it’s just went monumental. So I got finance coin when it was thirty dollars and I sold it at three hundred, so I was pretty happy with that. But the key is this is another thing about crypto that I just know when you’re going to get it because that sort of growth is never sustainable. There’s even another one called Cordano or other. And bear in mind, this is one of the biggest cryptos and it’s done close to like a 15 X or even in the space of a few months. And I think it was a 50 X since the start of last year, which is just insane. Unfortunately, I didn’t have that because I didn’t think it was going to go up in price. But it just shows I don’t always have the answers.

[00:56:47] You know what? It it’s always a guessing game. It’s about dentistry.

[00:56:52] Yeah. What kind of dentistry are you, general? Dentists, obviously.

[00:56:57] Yeah. So I am a general dentist. I, I like everything about dentistry, but I hit root canals with a passion. I just hate them so much. I just really, really struggle with them. I’m OK. I’m average at them. I wouldn’t have bothered them to mix practice. So the proximity the minute is private. There is. I’ve been doing a little bit of NHS work just to see their contract on, but they had I think they had a contract for about two thousand Udai. So it really it wasn’t big and there was that was between me and about four other people. So yeah, it’s mainly private, mainly private.

[00:57:38] What kind of work do you do? You do this line. I don’t do one liners. You have never know.

[00:57:45] I’ve always thought to myself, I don’t know enough about ortho to kind of take the plunge, although I did read. Have you read that book, Introduction to Orthodontist Orthodontics by the Yorkshire guys named Simon, something I read that a really good book actually of No one. If anyone doesn’t know the first thing about, although I read that and it gave me enough knowledge to know that I don’t know what I’m doing, OK, so I would be prepared to have a clearer liner’s case. I’d be happy to do that. I made the right patient and I need it to be something really simple so that I can gain a little bit of experience doing it. And we have a guy in our practice and he’s he’s just single handedly taken the practice to Invisalign. Diamond, I think is it is at the top one single handedly. OK, so so needless to say, he gets all the clear eyeliners referrals.

[00:58:45] Sounds like you need to go on. Perhaps. I guess it’s not a sales pitch. It actually is a ball of wax lyrical now. Very well. We’re talking about invested and invested in your career and. No, no, no. I’m quite passionate about the fact that a lot of dentists are scared about. So because it’s no. Like investing. Right. And if I give anyone some. I asked advice about learning also guarantied Crash’s Abebe course and just learn the basics of alignment, Bletch and Bond. But more importantly, one of the key things they talk about, which is something you’ve just touched on now, is case selection is so important. And we interviewed an infant that is still today. And that was one of the things he was talking about as well. That was that was key, right. Is choose your cases to know where your comfort zones are, know what you should be for and what you should do. This is it.

[00:59:44] I just think I’m waiting for that right. Patient and yeah, I’m sure that they will come. I mean, and I like to learn I like to kind of push myself outside the comfort zone. Can I just say one thing about payments in line while we’re on the show?

[00:59:59] And I promise, as I said this, I said this off camera before the show, but I just could enlighten.

[01:00:07] Enlighten. You actually won’t believe your eyes until you see it with your own eyes. I watched those teeth go. I didn’t think it was possible. OK, so on the payment, hats off to the guy is hand on heart is going to sound like you’ve paid me to say this, but I think that you should go. Why? It’s called payment.

[01:00:25] The money. The money. Yeah. I’m going to come to you for advice on honesty.

[01:00:31] Honestly, it really is. It really is something special. And I didn’t believe it until I saw it with my own eyes. They’ve reduced whitening to science.

[01:00:38] And anyway, I’m going to shut up now because I agree with you. It’s an amazing product. But the toothpaste is even better. It’s yeah. Anyway, I’m going to stop this because it’s a non promotional podcast. Otherwise I could watch the recall about and James just say it’s been it’s been great spoken with you. We’re learning from you about investing. If people want further advice or further information they’ve heard of you, why can they look you up? Where can they find your podcast and start getting into this journey of figuring things out?

[01:01:18] So originally, this whole journey started from a Facebook group that I mentioned earlier, the one that I mentioned earlier, which started about six months ago, and that Facebook is called Facebook group is called tend to invest in a community group for dentists who enjoy trading. So the idea of it is that it can be a safe space. The dentist can talk about all things finance, whatever aspect that might be, whether you’re into stocks, whether in crypto, whether it’s even while there’s a lot of content on there that just focuses on running a dental practice, how you can make that more efficient, et cetera, et cetera. It’s all aspects of finance within dentistry as well as that. It’s mainly UK based, which no one has ever actually quite done before. So a lot of the content focuses on people from the UK and specifically, there’s no reason why anybody who is not necessarily from the UK can’t come on there as well. But all I’m saying is that if you’re from the UK, it might resonate and be a lot more interesting to you, because if I’d tailored the content is, as I say, I think what a lot of us dentistry and I’ve been there before when someone who is a financial guru starts talking to me, I almost have my back up a little bit at the start because I know that their interest may not be aligned with mine.

[01:02:36] So providing somewhere that dentist can have this discussion for no other reason than everybody benefits and learns, that is what makes it unique. And if anything, I’m just surprised that we didn’t have something like that in UK dentistry before, because it just seems it just seems obvious and so necessary to me. And I’m going to realise that now three point three, which is crazy. And honestly, I just I actually hung on hard not to get sentimental. I actually blessed that people have decided to come along and use this group in this way. And it’s become so many more other things than I ever thought it would have been at the start. I really didn’t put any more thought into it other than why don’t we have a group where we can talk about finance a little bit and now it’s just evolved.

[01:03:23] And it does seem obvious, isn’t it? I mean, it’s weird that there wasn’t one really.

[01:03:28] Yeah, honestly. So strange. Really strange.

[01:03:31] I’m to start because then I just want to talk about politics and religion.

[01:03:38] Yeah. I think you get what you get. A lot of members are not. I’m trying to ponder me and Domenico who I don’t, I don’t know Dominic but is a good. Well OK.

[01:03:51] Fair enough. Fair enough. And the other thing I was going to say as well. Yeah there is, there is a podcast too and that was born out of the group. And what I’m very careful to do is, is to present information from people that I know that are good and know what they’re talking about versus all the the static or the. Background noise of people who are perhaps involved in finance, but maybe not as good or maybe not that knowledgeable, and it’s a created safe space for dentists who are interested in finance.

[01:04:26] That podcast is called Dentists to Invest as well.

[01:04:28] Yes, you’re quite right. Yet dentists who invest available on Apple, Spotify were also on Buzz. If you Google Dentsu invest, you can find it as well. Posted by myself with various people from finance who are dentists, but also not dentists. And we actually have an interest in coming up called Plan Your Way to Financial Freedom for Dentists, which starts as of yesterday, actually. And we’re making content which focuses on dentists themselves or from dentists themselves who have achieved a degree of financial freedom outside of dentistry.

[01:05:00] And also there are people who are businessmen, etc, etc. just explaining some of the things that they’ve learned through time and a lot of them to be so successful. So it resonates specifically with dentists.

[01:05:13] You know, the podcast, I’ve yeah, I’ve listened to a few episodes, there was a chapel and there was a young guy, he was twenty eight and he’s starting his own tech firm. What was his name? Alex. Was it Alex? It wasn’t that long. It was only about four or five episodes ago.

[01:05:32] Alex. Yeah, I might have I might be totally wrong with the name. I might have sent you on a bit of a wild goose chase, but I definitely remember the guy.

[01:05:43] And well, our podcast always ends with the same question as before.

[01:05:48] Before that question because because it’s been about finance and heavily crypto thing. It just for a bit of fun, James, and no financial advice. But imagine you had a hundred grand. To invest in Krit, so give me the portfolio spread that you’ve got now for the upcoming bull market.

[01:06:13] What would you say to me personally, like a little bit of risk and I’m more into trading it? OK, so I actually really had an interest and I’ve had a few interesting people approached me from the group who without giving too much away, they’re involved in the financial sector and trading crypto professionally.

[01:06:36] And because of that, I’m privy to a few telegrammed groups that they they keep people up to date with what they believe will happen next. And because of that, I’m able to align my trades with those people. Now, if we look at the patterns of where crypto is at the moment, traditionally what happens is Bitcoin rallies and Bitcoin is harder to rally. Bitcoin is not cooling off a little bit. What tends to happen is Ethereum follows and the coins follow after that. Now, yes, we have seen a lot of old coins value over the last few months.

[01:07:07] I still think they’ve got a lot more head space to go. There’s usually two rallies to massive Bitcoin rallies in each kind of bull run. We’ve just seen the end of the first one. In my opinion, Ethereum should follow. If everything goes to script, Ethereum will follow and then the old coins will follow after that. So my portfolio looks a little bit something like this. I think I’ve got twenty five percent Ethereum. I can actually get it right now. I’ll call you some of the good ones out. Let me just see here.

[01:07:36] So one which is a real short term trade and I only want people to get into it if they’re prepared to get it over the next few months because it’s not a crypto that I particularly trust in the long run is called Tron. Tron Network. Look a little bit into that. A lot of other projects which are trying to do smart contracts or rallying a lot. That’s why we’re seeing at the pump a lot. Trone is trying to do something similar. They also basically have a PR hype man who runs the whole project, and he is someone who loves to hype his project. He knows how millennials work it. It fits a narrative does that. It fits a narrative. And also, as an aside, I was looking at the chart not that long ago and I could see that something fishy was on the chart, that it had this massive volume Kandal. And usually that suggests that someone is modeling it with a little bit.

[01:08:27] So that is my top tip.

[01:08:29] Again, just to emphasize what I’ve said, no financial advice. That is one that I’m following closely. I’ve got quite a fair bit of money on that one myself. Other projects that I like. Let me just see. I’ve sold most of my my finance coin. So if anybody still in that, it might be a good time to get on, because I think that it’s hit the peak of its market cycle personally, maybe keep a little bit in and just see how it goes. A few of my other favorite ones. I like Dot. I like what they’re trying to do. I like fat, fat, I can bridge company. There is another one called Corti, which is a payment program that is aligned well. They use their used by World of Warcraft.

[01:09:11] I can see that getting much bigger after that.

[01:09:14] There is a lot of the rest of the more on this tier. Those are my favorites.

[01:09:18] So I think that if you want some good tips, I know the one Archdale throw in there and can you kind of network again if you’re going to very much go into them with the idea that they’re going to be a punt and be prepared to sell up when it comes to the end of the bull market? I reckon we’ve probably got about six, seven months bull market left.

[01:09:38] So we’ll check back in six months time and see how many dentists they should have, because I know they’re very scared that I might have to rely on my absconding already to the Caymans.

[01:09:51] I should get to work on that strictly strictly not financial advice. Take risks, guys. Totally. I think the final question for you, I think the most interesting one is to imagine you’ve got thirty days to live and you know, you’ve got thirty days to live. What would you do without thirty days?

[01:10:10] Oh, man, that is a great you ask this at the end of every podcast. Some I like it. I really like it.

[01:10:16] Thirty days left to live, you know.

[01:10:20] Root canals.

[01:10:23] Yes. How did you know I was going to say that.

[01:10:25] I think, I think the very first thing I’d have to do is I’d probably go and get a really good sun rose because I haven’t had one in ages. And then I would do my very best to just go out somewhere in the world. I really want to go to Japan. I really, really always wanted to go to Japan. I spent every penny I have. I’m just going out there.

[01:10:45] I travel is a short answer. I travel, how often do you get an answer? That is probably a really boring answer.

[01:10:51] Now, that’s kind of a common one where you travel and who is that sort of thing? You said the other one is travel.

[01:11:00] All right. Maybe. All right. Let’s do it to young man. It said a final down the planet. You’re surrounded by people who are closest to you, your loved ones, nearest and dearest. And you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of advice, stroke, wisdom.

[01:11:24] Good question.

[01:11:25] So I would say throw my positivity into the world because the positivity makes its way back to you. And that is something that I’ve this whole journey like six months ago. I those words resonate with me so much more after that, because I’ve seen how that can work first hand and that selflessly helping people, even if you go into it with you don’t want anything back. And I never do. It does make its way back to you. OK, that is huge. Yeah. I would say work hard, work as hard as you can. Just see each day as a gift, see each day as an opportunity to grow and do your best to push yourself outside your comfort zone. And I would say stay true to yourself. Stay true to your goals.

[01:12:14] Was that too sentimental? You know what, that was me. That was me speaking from the heart right there. That’s what it should be, man.

[01:12:20] Yeah, it could be. James, thank you so much for your time today. Imparting some wisdom on us and dentists. If you’re into investing or want to learn more, check James’s podcast out, join his group and find a safe space to learn to ask your questions. Thanks a lot.

[01:12:38] Absolute pleasure, guys. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a lot of fun. Take care. Cheers, guys. Thank you.

[01:12:47] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders on the street.

[01:12:58] Your house payment, then Groody and perhaps Celenk. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it.

[01:13:19] Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

In this episode, we welcome insight into growing business values from Sandeep Kumar. Sandeep discusses his successes with Invisalign, House of Fraser and his multiple practices up and down the country.

Sandeep also tells us about his journey from Punjab to the UK, setting up MiSmile and prioritising health and family.



“And I remember after year 12, me and my dad and my brother were sitting, and we couldn’t get our head around – what shall we do? Do I want to do engineering? Do I want to do medicine? Or want to do dentistry? And I still remember that day I called my mum while I was there and I said, “Mum, we don’t know what to do.” And mum said, “I always wanted one son to be an engineer and one to be a doctor, but the rest is up to you. It’s up to you.”  – Sandeep Kumar


In This Episode


01.48 – Growing up in Punjab

08.15 – Learning the trade

10.28 – Coming to the UK

14.15 – Adjusting to the UK

16:08 – Starting in dentistry

20:38 – Birmingham Dental Hospital

26:55 – Setting up your practice

32:09 – Adding value to your practice

33:12 – Opening a second practice

36:22 – Invisalign

40:43 – House of Fraser

43:19 – Finding the confidence to be ambitious

46:36 – Managing multi-sites

50:50 – MiSmile

58:41 – MiSmile Academy

1:04:20 – Quitting clinical dentistry

1:08:49 – A day in the life

1:13:43 Legacy & last days on Earth


About Sandeep Kumar


Sandeep qualified as a dentist in India and moved to the UK in 1999. He gained his GDC registration in 2000 and bought his first dental practice in 2003.

Thirteen years later, he now works in both the Private and NHS sectors. He runs one of Birmingham’s largest NHS practices and owns the brand Smile Stylist, which has multiple locations across the UK and MiSmile. He also runs the UK’s first Invisalign only clinic and the MiSmile Invisalign Network, comprising independent dental clinics across the country.

Sandeep became certified with Invisalign in 2007 and is now one of Invisalign’s leading providers in the UK, submitting over 400 cases per year. He’s also one of the UK’s only Diamond Providers.

Highly regarded by Align Technology, he often speaks in clinical on marketing roles and shares his Invisalign journey and experience with fellow practitioners.

[00:00:00] And I remember laughter during the trial, me and my dad and my brother were sitting in my last year and we couldn’t let it get a happier than what we do don’t want to do anything to they want to do medicine or want to do dentistry. And I still remember that day I called my mom while I was there and I said, Mom, we don’t know what to do. And it’s your mom that is wanted by one sort be engineer and part of it. But the rest is up to you. It’s up to you. You know what?

[00:00:33] No pressure.

[00:00:38] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:00:56] Is my absolute pleasure to welcome Sandeep Kumar onto the Dental Leaders podcast. Sandeep’s the guy I’ve known for a long time. And if you look at his empire that he’s built up now, you can see that he’s definitely got the bug for scaling businesses. But this podcast is all about, you know, your origin story. What drives you. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:20] Thanks. Thanks. Pleasure to be here. And good to see you. Prav after a long time.

[00:01:24] Likewise, Sandeep. Likewise. Do you mind just taking us back to your origin, your roots, where you grew up, and then moving on to how dentistry featured in your life? At what point?

[00:01:37] Just to cover that, you’re asking my 23 as in like and like to summarise in two minutes, but I’ll do my best. But you don’t

[00:01:44] Look a day older than 24 Sandeep.

[00:01:48] Well, that’s good to know. But I was born in India, in Punjab, in this small town, small family. I have one older brother and my mom and dad, both the teacher in the school, even though we are a small family. But I’ve been brought up in a big family, you know, cultures in India, how their uncles and aunties. So my dad had four brothers, so it was like a gated entrance. And behind there there was a four families, four uncles and then grandma and lots of cousins. So, yeah, it was it was not a lot of fun living living together.

[00:02:31] And then what was schooling like,

[00:02:33] Our schooling is a very, very strange and it’s a very deep cost, but I’ll try and get you there and tell you where it all started. So I did my up to year 10 in in the town where I was born. And I think my dad was a teacher and my mom was a teacher. And they could see that the signs are not looking very good. This guy is not good at studies. God knows what we’re going to do with him. And so, my God, that very he was very well connected. He was very social, so he started speaking to people and stuff. So a couple of years before my brother went to do engineering in Maharastra, they have me remember. So my dad used to go and drop Payman lot of stuff and all that. So somehow he found that out and master that stuff. In those days, there was lots of Dental private schools are opening a lot of stuff, not only in Lancaster. So my dad figured it out that if you do, you’re 11 and 12 and you can get into a Dental school or engineering school in a private school without paying any donation. So one day he went to see my brother and he came back and I was 14 years old at that time. And he sat me down with my with my mom and he said, I’ve got something to discuss with you. And he said, how do you feel that if you have to go where your brother is doing it? And that was like thirty six hours plane Germany. And I said, what options do you do? I said, you know, you can do this, the band BSE or whatever, but if you want to go in dentistry or medicine or law, then that that’s the only option you have. So here I go. You’re not at the age of 14. Pack my bags in the train. Thirty six hours billion with my dad. And he dropped me last. But luckily, my brother was there, so I did my year level in year 12 of that time.

[00:04:30] So I bet that made you very independent, very young,

[00:04:34] You know, looking back, you always find strength from from, you know, where you have come from and and leaving home at such a young age was not easy, but it did work

[00:04:46] Well. As a 14 year old, what was your day to day? As you know, that’s completely foreign to me. You know, it would be looking after you. Who’d be cooking for you? Where where would you be living? What was the secret that led Sunday?

[00:05:00] Yes, the script was my brother was as I said, he was doing engineering in Maharashtra in that time. And he was as if he was living at somebody’s house as a paying guest and they had an extra room. So I went and lived with them and I was a paying guest. So they were cooking for us and we were paying them a pandemic. But that’s how it was. That’s how it all started.

[00:05:24] And then from there on to Dental school.

[00:05:27] Yes, so I did my year 11 and 12 and I did both maths and biology, so if you want to go in medical field, you do biology. If you take you take maths by I took both of those days, you could take both. And I remember after doing 12. Me and my dad and my brother were sitting in my raza and we couldn’t really get it on. But we do not want to do anything. They want to do medicine or want to do dentistry. And I still remember that day I called my mom while I was there and I said, Mom, we don’t know what to do. And mother was wanted by one sort of engineer and part of it. But the rest is up to you. It’s up to you. You know what?

[00:06:15] No pressure

[00:06:16] Or something. You know, I never, never enjoyed medicine. Dentistry is not a bad idea. And that was really never preplanned. I think the only thing I can say is what persuaded me towards that was when I was really young, I had a massive accident and I broke a couple of my front pages and I had to visit the dentist quite a few times with my dad and the way he looked after me and, you know, put some sort of teeth in it so I could live my day to day life. I think that was back of my mind and that was the turning point for me. So I decided to go into dentistry.

[00:06:56] What’s the education like?

[00:06:58] Education, so that was a that was a private school, so first couple of years, we had a lot of the anatomy and physiology and yuzo usable stuff. And then I think the the the syllabus was pretty, pretty similar to what you do here, but not probably in as much depth. And then in the final year, we had a lot of clinical work. And, you know, you can imagine in rural areas in India, the demand for Dental, Solanki is very high. So there was a queues outside the clinical sessions. So, yeah.

[00:07:37] So did you get a lot of hands on experience as a Dental student right from the early days? Were you getting through a lot of volume and and building up those clinical skills?

[00:07:49] But let’s be honest, but if people want to do it, then there was plenty of work to do. But I wasn’t in one of those. I was lucky to get away from it as soon as I could. Yes, I did. Had enough. But yeah.

[00:08:05] What type of student were you? The sort that tries to get away with the least possible work your way through and just just Skyview way through. Get your qualification and move on to the next step

[00:08:15] And you have to nail on the head. Explain to me exactly the people who are close to me. It was like, how can I get away with minimum possible that that’s how it was. And, you know, my my dad always used to come home twice a year during my during my dentistry days. And, you know, living in Maharastra so far away, my expenses were pretty quite a bit and all the time I used to come home and I used to ask Dad, Hey, Dad, I did some more money. And he will say, you know, I give you so much last time all that go on. And by the time I explain to people that maybe Dad’s right, it never, never let me deprive from anything. It gave me an opportunity to say me one thing before I go back to my uni son. Never come home with you know, it’s very hard earned money just about managing that. What we are doing is half of our salary is going into your education to whatever you need to do, but do not come out of the field. And you know, that always, always stuck with me. So I studied enough so I can just possibly

[00:09:28] Just suck it right to the edge. Actually didn’t quite fail, right?

[00:09:31] Yeah, that’s

[00:09:33] What she did. You come to the UK Sunday,

[00:09:35] So I came to the UK in nineteen ninety eight.

[00:09:41] So what was the story as far as dentistry.

[00:09:44] Yeah. So you know when I finished my Bettina’s OK, this is what it was about. You know, I never said how I got into dentistry in that school. There was a 50 students, there was a twenty five of them were local who was born in Maharashtra who live in a lot of stuff, like literally half an hour away. And twenty four of them came from Punjab, who came from a wealthy family who had money, the son of doctors and gynaecologists and all that sort of money. And there was a me ventrilo. So now I have to manage my lifestyle working with these guys who come from a very, very large family. So I managed to get through dentistry, found my money wherever I could from that time, and came back to Punjab after doing my videos. And I came back to my town. And now I have seen the life of Mumbai and life of big city, and there’s no way I’m going to settle down in my time. So that that is that what you want to do now? You’ve just finished exams, now the next step. So there was the college open in my time, not too far away from my town. And I went there as a teacher. So I started teaching one of the Dental subjects. And I think it was a couple of months after I have this thing in my head, I said, this is not for me. And I literally decided to give up their job and I went to China. I’m sure you guys must have heard about it.

[00:11:12] So my brother used to live there and I told my dad, like, there’s no way I can settle in the city. Can I go and try and do MBA? Sounds like a postgraduation and knowing I was not very good at education, that was another challenge on the song. But I left that job, went and studied for the whole year, like literally every day. That’s what I did. No work at all. And guess what? After one year I sent about nine exams for different states, different countries, and I failed all of them miserably. I know in me. And I could get an envious. Came back to town and came back to town again. Their dad was and that’s about it not look. And I said, you know what? The job which I chucked away, that I left and I went to. Let’s go to that college and get me that job. And I’ll because I’ll live happily ever after. So we went back to college and there was a principal, the guy who gave me that job. And as soon as he saw me and he said, you know what, buddy? You chuck that job on me and I, I have not forgotten that nobody’s ever done that to me. I am not giving you this job. And that was the only Dental college I had in town. So the situation was, you know, kinda envious clinic because I don’t have enough money to college, which was nearby, was not willing to have me back as a teacher. Where did you go? And honest to God, that was like the time that I was very, very lost, didn’t know what to do.

[00:12:47] But, you know, Dad was very supportive. Mom was very supportive. But Dad will always ask me so, you know, you can’t live your life just walking around and sitting in this shop and sitting in that store. What do you want to do with it? And I was just getting in that not not depression, but a stage where I don’t know what to. But, you know, that would be bad, and he has said to you earlier, he was very social and he had his own connexions. So he was speaking to his friends and this and that, and then he said, if nothing else, why don’t you go and get married? And I said that let me just build something, you know, have got nothing at all. And then through one of his friend, he introduced me to this girl. And that girl now is my wife, and later that time was Dad’s friend’s daughter and visiting India. That time she had no plans. I had no plans leaving India. We met once and there was there were some issues on my Punjabi family that was from originally from Punjab amongst us from Punjab. We met once and then thought nothing of it. And then we met a couple of times again. And it was, you know, yeah, there is something in there. And that’s what that’s how it went, really. So we decided to get married and a couple of months after that, I mean, you can.

[00:14:07] Sundeep, how many days did you go on before you agreed to get married or you decided to get married? But that, I

[00:14:14] Think was around two months.

[00:14:15] Three months. Yeah. And then so you started your new life together in the UK? Yeah. What happened, what was the. I remember having a really I think it was a jaw dropping conversation really with you and you can fill us in on the Sunday book. There was conversations I had about your role in the Dental practise and what you were doing, not as a Dental practitioner. And we had that conversation. I think it was in your practise when it was booming and it was jaw dropping from where you came from to where you were then and where you are now. So I won’t spoil it. Tell us a story.

[00:14:56] Well, first of all, Prav well done. Don’t you even remember that?

[00:15:01] How could I forget? How could I forget?

[00:15:04] Yeah. You know, it’s it’s landed in the U.K. The biggest thing was I could not speak English. Turned up. As I said, it was not like you had been planning for six months before or trying to find out what the dentistry systems are going to be in that country. It just happened to be the very word of English. But you know what? I will have to get a lot a lot of credit to my amazing wife. She was like a rock, and she still is. She supported me like, you know, it’s OK, it’ll take time. You’ll get there. I could not even pick up a phone and call a Dental Prav is to find out, you know, how the system works. And I couldn’t pick up the phone and call GDC to find out to work. What do I need to do? So the pull of those days, you had to go to work and then I will get a chance. We’ll call the disease and hospitals and this and that to try and find out, you know, what do I have to do to, you know, start working as a dentist here? So we tried that for about a couple of months and I was not getting any of it. And I thought, you know what? I had enough.

[00:16:08] There’s no way I’m going to sit around a bloody hole and keep calling ten practises. And I couldn’t speak a word of English. They couldn’t understand what the fuck I was talking about. And I came home one day and I said, Do you know what? I’m going to get a job. I don’t give a shit. What shall I get? So I’ll go to the job centre near where we used to go to the job centre. And there was a job available in a factory and in the factory, they used to print like a cardboard boxes, they used to print labels on them. I applied for I got the job. And two months after I came to you, OK, that was my that was my first job. So then they said they will be about three pound twenty an hour at that time. I said, just give me whatever money I just need to get out of the house and do something. So I started that and I did that for about six months or so. But, you know, I was so happy I was meeting people, couldn’t really speak to them or communicate much, but I had somewhere to go. I get up in the morning, shower, dress up somewhere to go, and that carried on for a bit.

[00:17:14] And after a couple of months, I remember one day my wife went to see her GP just for a normal, normal routine, Check-Up or whatever, and she told him that, you know, I got married and he was a family doctor. He knew everybody very well. So he just asked us about your husband, too. And she said he’s a dentist from India, but obviously he can’t get a job at the moment. And he said what he asked us, what he is doing now is that he’s working in a factory nearby. And he got so angry on my wife. Why didn’t you tell me? You know, I’ve got Connexions. I could have done this come that for you. So he gave her this business card and he said, go home and call this a symptom of the look out for you. So if I came home, we sat down and she said, you know, that’s what Dr. Venugopal. That was his name. And Dr. Vinegar gave me a card, which my wife called. And that guy was the guy who was a dentist. And he is still very good friend and is still my mentor. And we still stay connected. So I called him and, you know, obviously and she just told you that you asked me to give you a call.

[00:18:23] That’s the situation. Can you have. So he gave my wife somebody else’s number and he said, call this guy and will have. And that guy’s name was Sam. And my wife called them and we then turned up at the practise, went to see him and he said, Are you OK? OK, yeah, that’s fine. So he just explained to me everything he said. This is very common. Lots of people come from abroad and only processes you have to do and you get to do that. Yeah, I said, yeah, that’s fine. And so I said, when can I start? Actually, my wife was talking on behalf of me and start whenever you want and he said, yeah, come tomorrow. And honest to God, guys, you know, I can still looking back that day, that was the happiest moment since I landed in UK just because I was in a an apartment, which I know I know dentistry. I know the smell of the drill and the materials. So I don’t have to go to that factory and print that stuff there. So that was it. And I started working as a as a Dental said that practise and some other some people unfortunately passed away a few years ago. He was the legend. And my feeling was that.

[00:19:40] So then what, you were studying exams as well.

[00:19:44] So from then on, this is what happened. So I used to work as they used to go there as a work, as a Dental from nine to five thirty six. But there was a guy, there was a dentist and who came through the same group as I did. So he came from Pakistan, he worked as a dental nurse and he qualified as a dentist. And that gave me a light at the end of the tunnel. Now I can follow his footsteps and if I do the same thing, then one day I’ll be dentist as well. So. So this is my routine. Like, literally every day was mine to catch a bus, come to city centre Dental Hospital Library used to be up until eleven o’clock. So from six o’clock, eleven o’clock I sit in the library because I couldn’t afford books that time. Library used to close at eleven. I was the last one there always to pick me up every time, so took time to go home.

[00:20:37] And I saw Birmingham.

[00:20:38] Yeah, yeah. All in Birmingham, Birmingham, Dental Hospital. So we had to come back home and go to bed and stuff the same, same to again. So there was those days called statutory exams and nowadays it’s called a lorry or something. After that it takes to like an old lady. So MIT is used to be called the exam. So I passed my first century exam and guys hospital after about a year and I was getting more and more excited. It’s just one step away from the dream. And then I carried on the same. I carried on my nursing. I carried on my studying in the library on the way. For the second part, you have to do a lot of practical work. So I was collecting those expected, mounting them in the plaster of Paris. And then after the clinic was closed, I have some balls and just starting to do the cavities. And that’s what I did that I think it took me about six months or so. And then somebody told me that if you really want to pass this exam, you have to give up this job about at least a couple of months and focus on the central studies. That’s what I did. I spoke to that guy some time and I said, you know what, I’m going to have to stop now because my exams are still months away and I’m going to go and take that exam.

[00:21:53] So I went off event and I took that exam and unfortunately, I failed. The part that was that was tough. That was the that was the lowest of life. Sometimes it can take, given the game myself. And to see someone said this is a situation I failed, unfortunately. And he said, yeah, don’t worry, man. Come on, let’s get back to this thing tomorrow. And that’s what I did, you know, with my pride, with everything. And that started the process again. And then it was, OK, this is what what happened that time. There was statutory time. He was only allowed to take twice. If you failed seven time, that is it. You’re not allowed to do. And just plain you. OK, well what pressure chase about pressure. Yeah. You know, came home and spoke to my wife, discussed about what shall we do. She said it’s entirely up to you. There’s no pressure on me. She was working, she was earning enough to support both of us that time. And then in the year 2000, my wife was pregnant and she was successful. And I said, I cannot wait for another year or two years for my exam. I’m just going to go for it and see what happens. So I applied for the part and the part of that time was in Manchester. And I knew this is the only the only time to have if I fail, that’s a Dental those things for life.

[00:23:20] And that was a calculated decision I had to make. Part of the process was you do it on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and you examined Thursday and your result was on Friday. Compared to what they did was exam was on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and your results was on Thursday. So I knew this is my only attempt I’ve got left. I knew my wife is pregnant and I knew this is this is this is it. So I did not tell anybody and my wife did not know that this time my result is going to be on Thursday. So on Monday morning, I went to Manchester, did my three exams first and only took a train from Manchester, came to Birmingham. I that is the day I started. No, nobody in this world knew that my result is coming today. So I came back to the Langroudi came in a taxi well, somewhere where I had a bit of a pop and I took that. But I made a brave go to GDC. And after a couple of minutes of going around in circles, you know, you did well in this. You did well in that, but you didn’t good in this and you didn’t get in that. And I and then this lady said, you passed your exams, resolutions, talking to you. That is back

[00:24:38] The most have been the second happiest moment of your life and coming to the UK, right?

[00:24:43] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And then, you know, that just took a taxi and went straight to me and my wife was working on that day.

[00:24:56] Did you have a plan? Do you have a plan in case you failed? What were you going to do?

[00:25:00] Filled with hundreds of things I have planned, and I honestly do not want to tell on this platform, but could I have those things from anything to anything to anything? God knows what I would have done on that day. I don’t know if. So then I got my mother took a taxi and a little event took place, I was working at that time and I literally went and that’s what she was know. Like I said, we’re doing my best to make all the good luck and everything on Thursday morning, expecting that I’ve got another exam today and. Yeah, that. There you go. And then we left from there and came home. And, you know, what I learnt during these two years is a really spend time understanding the ins and outs of dentistry, even though it was tough for me to sit on the other side of the Dental. And this little boy, I was speaking to the dentist, trying to really understand how this works, how this works. How can you do this? How can you do that? How do you do this? How do you do that? And, you know, that happened in 2000. And we get the guy who I met first time he gave me a job as a assistant. So you have to work as an assistant after that year. And he was a great mentor, great teacher, taught me everything, which I didn’t learn before. He was just such a smooth operator, you know, mother. And I was like, yeah, and I’m doing it. I thought a very fine but cannot come up with a way to go. But he taught me all that and it was it was good. And that was it. That’s how the dentistry started.

[00:26:46] And so from there, when did it practise ownership or business ownership featured in that journey

[00:26:55] That you did you buy your first practise?

[00:26:58] So I qualified in 2000. Then I had to work one year in the system. So that brought me to two thousand. One time my mentor, my principal and I decided to move from where he was to a new new premises. So in 2002, we moved from his old premises to the new premises, and during that time he started a private practise in Birmingham and he was spending a lot of time there. And I was literally working six days a week in December just like this. And then as he was focussing more and more, building his his private practise is just, you know, there was a conversation one day. What do you think? If I buy this and we had a couple of discussions and he said, yeah, why not? But he said, why not? No, but none of the bloody banks are ready to give me a loan. I think you know what? You’ve already passed two years ago, Yanofsky, for a couple of hundred grand. How are you going to pay you to just finish your Dental system? And I remember that time there was a guy called Roger Upton. He used to run these courses called Setting Up Your Own Practise.

[00:28:08] So I turned to one of his calls and I just told him to rise and say, hey, if I introduce myself and say, you know, this is this I am, what should I do? And it happened to be people just like you who, you know, in this world isn’t that’s how it’s done in life, is all about who you know, not what you know, larger than give me this business card. And he said, speak to this guy. And he was a manager at NatWest, called him and he looked at my account and he said, Are you serious that you want to buy this practise is expensive practise from where you are. And I think about it all this these progenies probably gave a good recommendation. And I still remember his word. You know, he said sometime very early and we put the money on the jockey, not on the horse. And he said, I’m going to put money on you. And he gave me every single penny to buy that practise, bought two thousand pound. Well, and that’s it. So, you know, came back, bought the practise in 2003.

[00:29:09] But why didn’t you just associate for like three years? Why what were you in such a hurry? Because because of the time you’d wasted or your entrepreneur. You knew you were that guy.

[00:29:20] I think it’s a good very good question. You know, the reason I can say that, you know, I think I was getting to about 30 years old, you know, not a penny to my name

[00:29:29] Kid on the way.

[00:29:30] You don’t have a wife done enough of supporting me for a couple of years. You never said a bad word. But she’s looking at me and say, you know, look, come on now. And not a house, not a car to fly. You know, sometimes you get to look on your face, look in the mirror and think, you know what, that’s enough. I think I’ve faced enough shit in my life. Let me go out there and really express myself. Without worrying about will I be able to pay those bills, will I be able to pay those loans, let me just go out there. What I’ve got to lose. Let me just go out there and try it and see where I end up and do how did it go? I was I was it so I bought that first practise in 2003. And then we had our second child and we had a daughter in 2004. And at that time, I still remember. I think that’s a very significant event. My daughter was born with living in a very tiny house. And initially then I then I qualified. So obviously I wanted a bigger house. So we bought a bigger house and we got a dental practise. And the loan is like, I’ve never heard of hundreds of thousand.

[00:30:42] How the hell are we going to pay for it? Because I haven’t got a penny. And I sat down with my wife and I said, you know what? We’ve got to think this will buy you this house from here on. Let’s sit down and make an argument. And that argument is you will never, ever stop me going off of. If I say I’m doing 20 hours, I am doing 20 hours, if I turn up at home at 11 o’clock. I won’t go out clubbing and I want to go out dancing. But if it’s work, then please don’t question me because we are taking on a huge responsibility. And us. It’s been a partnership is equally part of I’m responsible for where we are. She played her side of the cards and I did bloody hell. And I did some of those days as well. The 2007 I bought this 2003 about this practise literally every month I was adding a soldier and I was adding a staff and I was adding a dentist. And two and three is up to two thousand six. I call triple the size of that business and then we turn the contract change into Yoda’s. I had a solid and this today’s date is one of the biggest entities practise in Birmingham.

[00:31:55] So how are you how are you adding value to that? And it just blacks back then, could you do it?

[00:32:01] So back then it was a fee for service, like there was no Yoda’s or anything. Like you just do you just do the work. And I was became a workaholic even at that time. So it was literally my principal and my philosophy those days was same and even today is the same. Do not say no to the patient. If somebody turns up in a practise in Payman, my simple instructions to my team was to not say to the patient that we can see you as long as they’re willing to wait. We will see them before the end of the day what time they cannot promise and pay. I still remember before we opened for lunch, there was a 220 people standing outside sometime. And in 2003, I was the only one dentist. In 2006, there were six dentists in the face just to you still learn that practise. So how many? That is my background.

[00:32:54] Is that now? Is that the same six six

[00:32:56] Six six six surgery and it runs beautifully. I still take a lot of pride. I go there every week, I feel home and I go there.

[00:33:07] Ok, so let’s talk about when did you decide to go for number two?

[00:33:12] So number two was 2006, the contract changed to UDS. So from 2000 to 2006, for me it was you know, I never came out one day, but I’m going to do this, this, this and this. It just happened. But 2006 contract, the growth was literally stopped. You can’t go out of business. And I’m sitting there thinking, that’s no, I’m used to what I’m doing. Anybody can come into. And that’s when I started exploding, you know what’s happening outside in the dentistry dentistry board instead of that, my boastful dental practise, let me just go out and explore what’s going on. So I still remember I joined this battle programme that time. I think he used to run some clubs or something. And I speaking to Chris and I said, you know, I’m thinking about to open another practise, but I don’t know what to do. And they have to go. And I still remember he connected me with Zach. And I Kanzaki and Chris was good friends, so I think Chris called, Zacchaeus said, you know, this guy going to you want to have a look at what’s happening in private industry. Can you can you have a quick chat? Cause I went to London one day and I thought, you know, I’m going to go to his practise.

[00:34:28] It’s going to set me in his office and he’s going to tell me a little bit about private practise. That was a compliment. I still remember that day I turned up. He said something. Give me half an hour. Just wait here. Let me just finish what a fun little thing was around lunchtime. And that guy has taken the rest of the day off for me. And he said, let me show you how the private flexes, Bob. So they took me to Dental, where he used to work. It took me to London smiles, took me to blame. And I’m thinking, wow, this is another side of dentistry, you know, which I never, never leave. All I know is. All I know about is about is that it’s so Suzuki spent literally or five hours with me on that day and told me everything introduced with these guys. That’s the first time I met a new and a couple of other guys that time, and that was it. So I came back and I got a bug and I said, you know what? I’m going to need to find a dentist who can do what I do.

[00:35:35] So it wasn’t that first practise is your only NHS one.

[00:35:39] Yeah, it still is. Is it just not we don’t do anything with that.

[00:35:45] Number two, was that small stylist or wasn’t it? Wasn’t it Branden’s that now?

[00:35:50] So in 2007, we started a practise called New Street Dental. It was the central centre of Birmingham. It was one sided like this and again took old ideas from the practises in London to set up a single solitary practise, went on lots and lots of courses, just learnt about smiled Makos and let it all. Some days I’m talking about here sixth, I

[00:36:18] Think I’ve been there that become your my small office.

[00:36:22] That’s been very nice. So that was that was a cyclical factors which I started in in 2007. And then that’s when really these things started to skyrocket. Business was doing well and the businesses started doing well because of Invisalign. That was the first time I introduce Invisalign. So this is how it happened. I opened the practise waiting for the phone to ring, waiting for people to turn, started from zero, started on spot. I had no knowledge about anything. This guy turned up. So somebody called. He wanted to arrange a meeting. So I’m not going to mention his name, but that just came from London. And he wanted to share. He wanted to have a surgery in my clinic and he was happy to pay me about five, six and defence. And I said, what do you want to do? And he said, I want to do Invisalign first time ever. And he said, I’ll bring everything in a suitcase, I’ll come with my nurse. I don’t need anything from you. And I want to do Invisalign. I said, let me have a think about this. Let me get back to you on that. He left those days. I had plenty of time, nothing to do. I just spent on the computer and type work that Invisalign got onto the website. And just looking through the process, there was of course, a couple of next week.

[00:37:39] And oddly enough, the Dental that cause. So let’s give it a go. What’s there to lose? I took a couple of cases with me to show these clinical guys and they said they can be treated, came back, started my starter two or three cases in 2007, still, when they are convinced that this plastic is going to move. But I thought, you know, I don’t have any other patients anymore. So let’s be let’s let’s try and see how this works. And, you know, but then I started seeing those patients and they were coming back and telling us about quitting and they were tracking really well. And I said, you know what? I’m not good at anything else, but let me see if I can be good at this. And just for whatever reason, it just that literally clicked. And in 2008, I end up going and next year literally nearly a hundred cases and just love everything about Invisalign, love everything about the workload blown everything about the happy, the patients. And obviously that was the revenue in the business because everything was worth three, four thousand those days instead of the feelings in the general dentistry. So things started to work really, really well that at that time. And that’s where we started.

[00:38:56] So then what about then when when we met was maybe a year or two after that, when you done the deal with all the House of Fraser’s, how did that come about?

[00:39:08] Yeah, so House of Fraser was literally across the road from the nearest clinic is like one hundred metres of a house, a place that had this. A medical company called Clearwire started doing teeth whitening and like a pool table, teeth whitening centres and all house of places. So one week and they were in Birmingham one week and they were in Manchester, one in Glasgow. So they were in Birmingham one weekend and they did lots and lots of things. But determining whether that time, like you can know, back to the dead, lots and lots of data. I mean, and one of my patients, both her sister and she said, can you have a look what’s wrong with her teeth and her teeth looked like it’s been patched. You know, there was no mama was completely damaged. And I said, what happened? And she said, you know, we’re going to have to pay that. We paid nine pounds and they had teeth whitening. But so the same thing went completely wrong on that one with her. And I treated her as a teacher, her sisters. And we had a very good rapport. And she said, can you fix it? I don’t know if I can fix it, but I’m definitely going to find out a way if I can, so those days I used to do a fair bit of it. We’ve discussed the Dental and all that. So I reached out to those guys on the set and I’ve got a case like this, what to do. So they got me in touch with a couple of people in USA, speak to them, and then they all, you know, they all said to me that we need to bring that back to where it was and slowly the nominee will start to recover.

[00:40:43] But it can take up to six months or 12 months, six, six, six, six, six or 12 months. I have no idea. But I had a bit of idea. Just make the phrase give these jobs and slowly they will recover. So I told the patient, you know, I can fix it, but it’s going to cost you about six grand and it might take about 12 months because I didn’t know what I’m but I’m getting into. And she said, yep, that’s absolutely fine with me. I’ll come back to you. She went to House of Fraser, spoke to herself as a manager and said, give this guy six grand or I am going to slaughter house appraiser anyway. And she was a journalist. And what there. But is that either I put six thousand pound or I’m going to talk about what you have done. And the next thing I know is also business store manager calling me at my clinic and say something. What’s the deal here? And I said, you know, this is what it is and I can give my best. And he said, please, I take full guarantee that I will pay you all the money. Please look after that lady. And that was it. And so I fixed her teeth. Everything went well. And I stayed in touch with the store manager and everything was fine. And then I have a coffee in my shortly before and after this, a bloody hell. He said we need to do something about a little something here with us. And that was it. So in two thousand nine, we opened the first house of Fraser store in Birmingham,

[00:42:07] Which was a beautiful, beautiful place.

[00:42:09] Absolutely. But that’s not a first time, isn’t it?

[00:42:13] What a beautiful thing. You make it sound like it’s all sort of sliding doors, you know, like you bumped into Zachy. And I’m sure there are other points in life where these sort of inflexion points happen. But at the same time, you could have just been an associate in the NHS and you’ve gone and done taking that one surgery place turned into sexology place. You’ve come down. I mean, you know, the next man might have gone and seen poulain in London Smile’s clinic and, you know, just just just started doing some private on the NHS. But you’ve taken these big steps forward, and I’m sure we’ll get to the next ambition. Was that come from that that confidence studio? I wouldn’t like get up. I mean, forget me, but I to get up, go to another country one year after qualifying, go buy a practise there and then it’s a big thing to do by itself. Was the ambition and confidence come from is that from that 14 year old story.

[00:43:19] You know, looking back, I think, you know. I just don’t want to be poor again. I know how that feels like at the age of 30 years old and you can’t fucking afford a McDonald’s for yourself that bloody hard. And you know what I said to you before that when I qualified, I thought it’s time for me to go and play and see where life takes me. And, you know, bullshit. Once I told you about this practise that became the backbone I was not worried about. And you know how I’m going to feed my family, how I’m going to pay my mortgage, I’m going to pay my rent and everything else just became a playground. I was just, you know, bring it on. Bring it on, bring it on. That’s save it then. You know, I didn’t get up one day and say, you know what? And even today, if you ask me something about your dream, I don’t have any dreams. I don’t get up and say I’m going to take over the world and I’m not going to fix it. My dream is I want to enjoy each day and let me see where this takes us. And that’s always been the attitude attitude since then.

[00:44:25] So when did my smile come along Sunday.

[00:44:28] What was the jump in you jumping them and your jumping? Because because that one one practised in the House of Fraser became seven or something, right?

[00:44:37] Yes, that’s right. So I started in the place. Then there was a couple of pandas going on in and adjust just that time in 2009, 2008, 2009 time. And I want to tender’s. So in 2010, I was building three Dental practises at the same time. One man’s house place on the hill and to those tenders, one. So by that time I had a fight and then we opened another one in Manchester in 2012 because we had a system. You know, I still remember people talk about, you know, it takes two years before you make a profit on this and that. I had a formula. I worked out that formula and then Birmingham and in year one month, three months just did a huge open day due to retirement in year one. We did me the hundred plus cases of Invisalign so that a lot of love and have that. So yeah, it was it was the coming to a stage where outside London I was becoming the go to guy for the misalign.

[00:45:50] And what what were you personally doing at this time, were you running around all these clinics as a practitioner? Would you step back from clinical before? What was your role in all of this, the NHS practise you were telling your wife? I’ll see you next week. And I’m working. So.

[00:46:10] So I think, you know, the one thing I’ve done after all this is I so those days are working seven days a week, then down to six, then down to five and down to four. So by this time I think I was working about three days a week and two days a week managing, managing the business. And yes, that that that that’s where that’s where it was. And then a couple of years after, I’m sure we’ll get there. And then I decided to quit dentistry.

[00:46:36] Sometimes some tips for managing multisite practises. You said you said systems, but for me, that must be it must be people

[00:46:47] Must be key leaders. Just only one one thing I run my business based on, and that is it’s all about people. I manage people. People manage the business. It’s as simple as that. I am not good for them. And I know that I can’t put the associate together. Have you ever seen an email from me? More than half a paragraph. I know what I’m good at, but I surround myself with some amazing people who get these things done. And it’s it’s all about people.

[00:47:20] So do you think you’re a good judge when when you meet someone, you’re a good judge of character was

[00:47:25] Fucked it up many times you can imagine. But overall, overall, I think I managed to get it right. I’ve made so many mistakes, made so many wrong judgements, but I don’t beat myself up for it, you know? You know, sometimes you have a bad day. I just to get somebody handed in a notice and they want to leave and somebody made a complaint. I used to get really worked up about those things. Now it’s just part of the business. That’s what business is. And I remember this scene from Richard Branson. I went to one of his life lessons. I would just pick one thing. And I still remember that, you know, when you’re running a multi size, get comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, I honestly don’t get up every day in the morning where everything is smooth sailing. There’s always something going wrong somewhere. But what I do is I backed myself and I back. My family supported me and back the people I have with me that no matter what happens, we’ll find it. And it’s just it’s just that confidence, you know, it’s OK. Things will go wrong. But look.

[00:48:39] When did the digital marketing start sending

[00:48:42] Digital marketing, so I’m sure Prav Prav know much better that better than I do on this subject. You know, when I started on the estate like this. Now, believe me, this note, guys. I can see the bullshit because I know inside out about Edwards, I spent like months and months understanding about this Google AdWords and my first account on the street Dental I set up myself personally and I ran that. And I used to have these, you know, the bits and pieces you want to show, you know, Dental that I used to manage all that about myself. Obviously, you know, things have changed and it’s a lot more algorithm driven and all that. But I had a very, very good, good understanding because, you know, I got to the stage where I started to think, you know, there’s a lots of good then disappear, lots and lots of good dentist. And I employ more than 20 dentists plus across the business. Can somebody do what I’m doing? And this is a way of bringing people in. The clinic is the art and science on its own. And Prav Prav knows that better than anybody else. If clinical dentist is allowed on science, I’ll tell you, man, this bringing these people and setting these systems and patient journeys is an art and science on its own. It’s just about what what you what we do and what you what you like to do, really.

[00:50:14] And so Sunday, what what was it that moving on from there inspired you to sort of create the Invisalign beast that you have to the day? Was there a was there a turning point in what you were doing where you thought, you know what, I can I can take this turnkey operation that I’ve developed, a smile stylist or whatever and apply that elsewhere. And let me see. Did you I’m assuming you didn’t have this huge vision because you just said that you take one day at a time and you just want to enjoy yourself. Right. So how did it all come about?

[00:50:48] Maybe start by telling

[00:50:50] Someone who doesn’t know what my mom is. Yep, I think I’ll finish it what my smile one, let’s start with a journey started from 2014, as I said, a new clinic. I was doing more and more of Invisalign by 2014. So my overall revenue of the business was more fun than everything else. And when I looked at those papers, I said, guys, this just speaking by itself, why don’t we focus on what we got? And that was the time I made a decision that nobody has done that before. Lots of people were talking about it. And I said, you know what, I’m going to turn this into an Invisalign on the clinic because consumer demand at that time and consumer brand awareness was getting to a stage where people were calling and say, hey, can I look at the phone company misalign instead of going to book? And what is frightening and that was the level I spoke to. And I don’t think there was a single person who said to me, that is a good idea, except one. I still remember that. And yeah, I went ahead. I just called it a Invisalign on the clinic. So that started in 2014, obviously in aligning technologies. Eco-System, they must have heard or, you know, some DEPREZ took a plunge and started in the clinic so that somebody from Aline’s head office in Amsterdam that time came to visit and came to see the clinic. And we went out for lunch and we just having a discussion. And those days I was doing like, you know, outside London.

[00:52:18] I think over the last ten years, I’ve been the biggest provider by and by long, long mile. I was doing those days about three or four hundred cases every year. And, you know, we sat down at lunch and he asked me, you know, what do you do differently compared to everybody else? And I still remember I said, yeah, but that’s my mostly what you find is that, you know, there must be something we can do. Right. And this is where this idea of my social network came, that why don’t we create a platform where I can openly share all my years of learning, all my years of understanding this Invisalign business and help people to grow there in this business. And that’s where this idea came from in 2014 and 2015, in April. So I remember from January, you know it now it looks easy. Everybody looks at it in my mind is a big beast now. It is a beast. It is, you know, with nearly 80 prospectuses. Now, what I remember can you imagine going out and telling people about the this never been done before. You’re going to have to pay five grand just to be part of this. And then on top of that, you’re going to have to pay a grand a month and we will try and grow your investment business. So they’re competing for 17 grand. So, you know, I went up and down the country, travel up and down that lots and lots of people.

[00:53:45] Did a line help you with that? That they say, you know, give us some perspective.

[00:53:50] One hundred percent, 100 percent. So whatever I have done, I’m not going to take all the credit for it. And where I am today, it is in collaboration with the line technology from day one. I had to put a business plan together. I have to show them the concept. I have to show them what it could potentially become and how we could support people. So they dedicated somebody alongside and me. We used to travel together. So one day I will be Newcastle, one day in London, one day in Manchester, trying to introduce the concept to these guys. And in April 2015, we had about 12 people who placed their hand up and say, yeah, we will we will start and see. See, that goes no. We started at twenty people at that time and twelve out of those twenty are still part of the most fun network.

[00:54:43] And the, you know, it’s a it’s a beast of a company to work with. There must be loads of others who’ve tried something like that or are trying something like that. You just really get on with that dude from Amsterdam.

[00:54:58] No, not on. Not only in.

[00:55:00] And I guess I guess you know your priority to them as one of their biggest users. Yeah. But still, you know, dealing as a as a as a dentist dealing with this slow machine. Did you did you find it easy working with them or was it too challenging?

[00:55:18] To be honest, the simplest way I can explain to you explain to you this is there’s a one thing about me. I am a very, very people person. I work with Payman. I don’t work in my team. I work with my accountant. I don’t care about company. There’s about 200 accountants. I have one lawyer. If there’s any question, I pick up the phone and talk to him. And same thing with a line, even though, you know, even at that time the line was a big company and now it’s a massive, massive company. It’s all about people. And because I was. Lots of cases that time they felt it was important. So they did whatever they had to do to look after me and I’ve been hand on heart, I’ve been 100 percent loyal. Lots of people have tried and say they’ve come and do this to us. And that’s how it’s it’s been it’s been it’s been about people. And even to this day, I still speak to all the lying team from a territory manager to the senior vice president. And we work together. It’s a collaboration. I can’t do this by myself. And obviously they see the benefit of it. So you asked me, can I explain to people what my smile is? This is a way to look at this like this is a win win win.

[00:56:36] There’s a three stakeholders in this business, there’s a dentist who joined the Misbah and there’s a spot and then there’s a of technology. Until this doctor or the dentist joins us, does the case, I don’t get anything, the line technology don’t get anything. So it’s in our interest to make sure that we send them as many leads as we can. It’s in our interest to make sure we train them really well so they know how to set the patient journey in the clinics and they can come out those. Customers into treatment. It’s in our interest to make sure that we set up the plate checks in the best possible way so they can treat more and more cases confidently. And finally, we help them to become a commercially viable model by giving them extra discounts. So if they are willing, they are happy, allowing technology is getting more and more cases, you know, now we are doing like the record currently a record month after month after month and the start of this year, I think this month we are on target to do so. Nearly 700 cases, one. So the bogus adopters do have beelined technologies. And then I have a commercial relationship that the more they do, the more the better it is for my smile. So it’s it is a win win strategy for everybody with.

[00:58:01] That’s beautiful, man.

[00:58:03] And so having grown the My Smile network to, what is it, 80 around 80 practises

[00:58:11] And the 80 plus nalliah.

[00:58:13] Was the academy all about the only reason I learnt about that is I saw a video of you on Facebook talking about sort of handing over the keys to your success. And then I came across the academy. So is that a is a training and education sort of platform? Is that centred around Invisalign only or general business development? Just tell us a little bit more about this and where that idea came from.

[00:58:41] Yeah, absolutely. It’s a good question. So part of my small network is everybody who joins us, they get the exclusive. And that is if the contract and my guarantee to those guys is as long as they stay in the NFL, I will not have anybody in those territories. Now, we dropped this contract in 2015 and those days, I think a line used to do about five thousand cases a month to nearly a hundred thousand now. But the contract is still the same. So say take an example of knowledge. So not if there’s a guy called somebody. He’s been part of my contract for the last six years under the contract with him that as long as you stay with the network, I won’t have anybody else in your area. And he’s still there. But there’s a lot of other people who are doing Invisalign now who want to join my mom, but they can’t because their territory is locked down. So the whole thing about Academy is I said, why did I started my school network so I can go properly, go out and share my knowledge, my experience and help people to grow their business. So my small academy is purely Invisalign. It’s done in collaboration with them as a nine. It is about teaching people. Why they should focus on this line and what they should do. We won’t be doing anything for them, we won’t be doing the things we want to be doing, the treatment planning. So this we won’t be going into their practises to do their training. But this is an online education programme so that I can share, you know, does it not only mean I think there’s a lots of other people who are doing exceptionally well in the network so we can collect additional knowledge with these guys to help them more.

[01:00:35] So today it’s all online, is it not? It’s not liveable

[01:00:39] At the moment, it’s all online because of the current current status, things may change. And if they do change, you know, we will look at changing those labels and the platform, how we do it. But right now, well, this quarter is starting on 1st of April. We are going online.

[01:00:57] Is it open to my small packages or they already getting all of this?

[01:01:00] So my small practises, you know, it’s it’s all about you. I have a relationship with them. They will get a free access to this because of our relation with them. So everybody else is not part of my spine that they are paying for this. But my network members will get free access to us.

[01:01:19] Was a costed.

[01:01:20] It’s seven thousand pound for three months.

[01:01:24] Or and so is it an on demand platform so so everything is pre-recorded and you can just access it back, or is it like things are released at certain times and live webinars and things like that? What’s the what’s the former.

[01:01:39] So the formula is 12 weeks, like one hour sessions with different industry experts at the back of that, we will have a WhatsApp and a online platform where people can ask us any questions they want and they can reach out to me directly. And we will be preparing them to do them every day at the end of three months so they can feel they can implement all the strategies which they love and as they go along and implement that and do the things and this is this is this is this will be a rolling Kodaly programme moving forward. So the first one is first of April and then into Q3 and Q4. So, yeah.

[01:02:30] We ask everyone this question, Sandy is around clinical errors,

[01:02:39] If you remember which one

[01:02:44] Look, we did another search to cover those errors,

[01:02:52] Errors funny because in medicine we tend to hide them. Whereas if we can learn from each other, can you think of any mistakes you made,

[01:03:02] Your life changing and life changing? I’m going to say with you asked to ask me it. So it was somewhere around in twenty, seventeen, forty six, twenty, sixteen, twenty six to business was crazy busy. My school network was growing phenomenally practice’s was doing well and I was doing clinical dentistry. But I was mainly focussing on two big cases in the news and stuff like that. One Friday, I have this patient walked in and was on the chair of those, they are supposed to fit them and but on the back of my mind, my laptop was open. My phone was there because I was expecting a very important goal. And by four o’clock, I have to transfer some money to my lawyer so we can get that deal done. So the patient is on the chair. I can’t say no because I booked all afternoon on the back. I’m keeping an eye on my phone and my laptop and that email is going to the phone is going to ring. So I started prepping this case and then was just about to put those videos on and the phone rang and my half of the focus was there. The focus is the finish the case. Ask the patient to set up just before I give up Amida. And I want the. Dos Santos about just nowhere near where they’re supposed to be.

[01:04:20] There was a count in the red line and I was absolutely speechless. So what I have done the. And you know what? I was very honest with the patient and I said, you know, something has not gone right. You need this. Let me fix it for you. Your appointment next Saturday. I’ve booked a whole day off. I’ll get my life to redo this business and sincerely apologise. And, you know, with time, I built a good rapport with the lady and she said, you know, it’s not ideal. I am a little bit upset about it, but I completely understand this and that, blah, blah, blah. So she came told us that Saturday we have 10 minutes to give us some discounts, give us some freebies. And that was the time I sat down. I think, you know what that’s enough clinical dentistry for. I am not giving my patient. So they come to me, they put a lot of trust and they pay me a lot of money and they expect a service, and at that time was the crunch time I decided I’ll focus on running the business. And that was it. So since twenty seventeen, I have not picked up a girl. So it’s going into four years. And that was a very tough decision, you know,

[01:05:36] Even Invisalign as well. But not everyone either.

[01:05:39] I don’t do anything for them.

[01:05:42] Welcome. Welcome to you

[01:05:48] Both. Now, both of us,

[01:05:50] Both of us, a failed clinician.

[01:05:53] This was your defining moment, quite similar.

[01:05:59] Yeah. Yeah, it was. But it was. I took these two these two temporary crowns off and both of them had the cause inside them both. There’s a horrible moment

[01:06:14] Right after that.

[01:06:18] So how many employees do you have now? I mean, as we’ve mentioned, all your businesses or is there a couple of Indian takeaways?

[01:06:26] You have a couple of Indian takeaways and a couple of partnerships and this and that.

[01:06:32] But the employees, if you go in.

[01:06:35] I think including everybody, I think we are close to 80,

[01:06:38] All the people that a lot of people,

[01:06:42] But, you know, the business is all about people. We touched on that before. And I’ll be very easy for me to take a pride and do take care of everything. It’s not my it’s not it’s nowhere near that for people.

[01:06:56] And so how much do you enjoy it, Sandy? I mean, like, if I was your friendly corporate who said, you know, Sandy, I’m going to take this off your hands, you know what I mean? Like, if we could value the thing, whatever you want to walk away from. But how much do you love it? I mean, would you do something? What would you do? This is to say I came along, gave you your father, how much you value. This is

[01:07:22] Enough

[01:07:22] Money, enough money to walk away. What would you do next? I mean, is that a plan is a plan. You think five years. What do you think? What do you think?

[01:07:32] Good question. So this is what I can tell everybody right now, I am loving it. You know, considering that I was 20 years ago from today, like every day is a living bonus, I never, ever, ever dreamed in my life that what I’m doing right now. Right now, I love so, you know, people talk about hobbies, but you enjoy it. I love work. You know, you’ll give me a problem for fact. I’m going to go out for a walk and I’m going to mull over it most often. I’ll get an answer. I get on my meditation routine in the morning. And I’ll think over it after that and see if I can find it also, if I don’t, it’s OK, I’ll do that next day. So I find this a very challenging I have got lots of ambitions, but what I’m enjoying is in the process, what I am becoming. And the first thing is, I can barely speak English now.

[01:08:29] I know I’ve noticed with you, too, that since I’ve known you a good 10 years now, your smile just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

[01:08:37] And we enjoy what you do, man. I think it’s a it’s a it’s tough out there. You got to enjoy what you do for those sun.

[01:08:49] Give us a typical week of how your week pans out day in the life week in the life. What are you doing?

[01:08:58] And day in the life, I am probably the most autopilot person you’ll ever meet, and I really mean. Five days a week, my alarm is set to for 30. I am the bed by nine, nine thirty, get a professional, I was looking at my app this morning, I use this app called Mieux. Two hundred fifty fifty three days of running straight on meditation. Never miss a day. I’d like to grab a cup of coffee after that and just mull over something that is bothering me. What is the big decision I need to make? And I have a really, really, really easy start of the day. My son’s going to uni now, and I told my daughter to come home, go to the gym, spend some time with the wife together, and then she’s working as well. So she’s managing, managing quite a quite a bit of the business. So she goes out a couple of times. And you know what? Every day is dependent. Who needs me there and what needs to be done. I have if I if you ask me what I have owned on freedom of time and I want freedom of choices, I can sit there and decide what my next week need to look like. And I’m there for people, there for my team, then I believe the meeting and I don’t have total responsibility of any of the department. There’s somebody else looking after them. Think that somebody is looking after that, that somebody is looking after the operations. Yes. Ultimately, I have a helicopter view of everything, but I don’t the business does not run because

[01:10:41] You haven’t got any deliverables.

[01:10:44] Looking at me and said, you know, Friday, five o’clock, it is that stuff with is supposed to deliver.

[01:10:52] Have you always woken up at four thirty in the morning since 2013? What happened? It just read a book.

[01:11:06] So I’m thinking about that time of 2013 at the of the work. And I think one day I was just walking out in a very cold, sunny day, cold day minus temperature, and I was sweating like a pig. What the hell is what the hell is going on? And by that time I would drink every night and eat whatever comes in front of me was about thirty six, wasted that time and never really looked after myself. And it was all about business, business, business. So I went to see a doctor and I did all the tests and they said there’s nothing wrong, you’re fine. But I knew deep down that you know what? I pushed and pushed the board bit too far this time to rein it in. And that was it. Since then, to change the lifestyle, I started cycling, started doing gym, started doing little and not eating consciously. I still have you know, we still have a pizza on the weekend and I have a bottle of wine some time. But being conscious of what you watch it on Sunday.

[01:12:06] I speak to a lot of people, a lot of successful individuals who start off life sacrificing healthful career or health, wealth or whatever you want to call it. And then there’s often a turning point in their life where something happens and events or they start thinking about their own mortality. Right. And then health starts featuring this as a priority. Is is that that event for you when you take a

[01:12:37] Million percent health and family is right at the top and everything else is is there but is far below that close to party’s? No compromise on those two things.

[01:12:52] And it is such an inspiration really

[01:12:56] Coming from you, that means a lot.

[01:13:00] So we tend to finish this podcast with the same questions like legacy based questions. We call it Prav. Final questions.

[01:13:12] I mean, I’m just sat here pretty much like I was when when

[01:13:16] I met you in in Birmingham, jaw on the floor, listening to your journey from where you’ve come, where you are today. So still the same person. You know, it’s bloody hell, it’s inspiring you really that that means a lot coming from successful guys. And, you know, you have you both have done phenomenally well. And I’ve got a lot of respect for you guys coming from you that that really means a lot to you.

[01:13:43] And it’s amazing to, you know, when we sit back and you say, right, well, what’s important to you is family and health. Right. And everything else is second best. It’s it’s lovely to hear that. Really, really lovely to hear that. And so moving on from that sun connexion, we’re not all immortal. And that day is going to there’s one thing that’s guaranteed in life, and it’s our last day on this planet. Right. And imagine it was your last day on the planet and you had the important ones around you, your loved ones around you. And you had to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What would they be?

[01:14:21] Yeah, it’s it’s a very deep question, but it’s you got to really think about this, so this is what of my mind both. I spent a fair bit of my life feeling unnecessary things. Which didn’t really mean a lot. And my first piece of advice would be face your fears. There is a beautiful, amazing life on the other side. And so I think what would be wrong, you’re always. What I do, nobody else is doing. I have no competition. I’m not looking ahead and I’m not looking backward. I’m running my own race. And I think that that is that means a lot when we start to compete and compare and this is where we start cutting corners. This is a bit of a service of both. You know, we are all individuals and do what you what you enjoy doing. And, you know, you have to as you mentioned earlier, that you saw my video recently until December 20, 20, I’ve never done a video. And now I’m doing it like literally every big. And that’s the third message is express yourself. We all got a story to tell. We all maybe one or two people can learn from this, you know, what we’re doing today or what I have done only to inspire one or two people. You know what? If this guy can do it. Let me give a. And, you know, we can change one or two people’s life by doing that. It’s been.

[01:15:56] Racing and Sundeep, how would you like to be remembered so if you were to repeat and complete the following sentence, Sundeep, was that well, how would that read?

[01:16:07] But I will complete that and I’ll come back to that in a second. But here’s the reality. As I said before, I don’t get up in the morning and I’m how I’m going to change the world. I’m going to buy 20 practises. I’m going to do this. None of that. I want to be remembered. Somebody was a great dad, a great husband, a good boss, a good son and a good friend. Beautiful, but that’s about it, you know, it’s not it’s not changing the world, it’s about small, small, small changes and just making sure be kind to yourself, but be kind to the world. Lovely. And Sunday, if you had 30 days today

[01:16:52] And you knew that in 30 days time it was your last day on the planet, what would you do in those 30 days?

[01:17:00] I think what was I’ll probably carry on what I’m doing, probably about 20 percent of what I’m doing, and I will spend a lot of time with my family, with my kids and my wife. And I will make sure that I leave everything in good hands. I’m very, very confident if I’m not here in 30 days, the businesses will carry on. Kids will be look after. I won’t be happy, but I’m sure she will get used to because kids will be there to look after. It’s about leaving the world and my my little place at a better place than being is today. That’s what I’ll focus on the next 30 days, Sunday.

[01:17:48] Thank you so much. It’s Saturday with my jaw on the floor and I’m inspired and in the same respect, so many values that we share that revolve around family and health and that sort of happiness. It’s been such a lovely conversation.

[01:18:06] Thank you so much.

[01:18:07] We thank you. Thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate that. And there’s nothing else you got to go to catch up with. You guys got to this fast paced world of sit down and talk about for an hour. What we have done these days means a lot.

[01:18:23] The funny thing, you know, did you know each other all these years? And then you realise

[01:18:26] There’s so much you don’t know, so much you don’t know about the lovely times. I think I should ask you for interviews next time on your inbox. I may reach out to you guys

[01:18:39] In three years time. He’s going to have a podcast network

[01:18:48] That makes a lot of money. All right, guys, thank you. Thanks for your time. Really appreciate the

[01:18:54] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:19:10] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if

[01:19:25] You did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:19:35] And don’t forget our six star rating.

In this episode, we welcome insight into the world of business in dentistry from Sameer Patel. Sameer is the Clinical Director of renowned Elleven Dental Wellness Clinic in London and shares his views on company ethos and being successful in the business of dentistry.

Sameer also tells us about his love of cricket, how to chose the right associates and runs us through how he approaches managing patient experience.



Stick to your protocol, stick to the system, stick to what you do and try not to go out of that too much, because actually, that’s when you produce the best clinical dentistry.”  – Sameer Patel


In This Episode


01.14 – Dentistry vs cricket

08.40 – Parenting

12.00 – Race

20.50 – Australia

17:55 – The business of dentistry

26:32 – Running a practice

32:37 – The patient experience

39:09 – True north

41:20 – Book recommendations

46:43 – Treating everybody

50:41 – Sticking to protocols

52:44 – Dental Entrepreneurial Programme

1:00:32 – Daily life

1:04:16 – Choosing associates

1:06:59 – Company culture

1:08:26 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Sameer Patel


After qualifying from the University of Birmingham, Sameer was awarded the Centenary Prize and was nominated for the Clinical Excellence Award. Whilst working in practice, he continued his postgraduate education at Oxford University before moving to Guy’s Hospital, London. Sameer was awarded, by examination, Membership of the Faculty of Dental Surgery at the Royal College of Surgeons in London.

He worked in Sydney, Australia, both in practice and in hospital, before returning to the UK to become a partner at Blandy House Dental Practice. He’s completed training in Implantology at the Eastman Hospital and is a member of the International Team for Implantology.

Sameer enjoys comprehensive dentistry for all ages and is a certified Invisalign practitioner, providing invisible orthodontics for teenagers and adults. He enables a more conservative smile makeover.

Sameer was the recent Chairman of the Reading Section of the British Dental Association and is the current official dentist for the PCA, Professional Cricketers Association.

[00:00:00] Stick to your protocol, stick to the way you do stuff, and again, all of these are just learning lessons. You know, when you’re in it, you feel, oh, God, what a helmet, why do I do that? But then you realise actually stick to your protocol, stick to the system, stick to what you do and try not to go out of that too much, because actually that’s when you produce the best clinical dentistry.

[00:00:26] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders and dentistry. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:00:43] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Sameer Patel onto the podcast. Samir is now principal of one of the highest profile prices in the country, 11 Dental with his wife, Sheibani. But to me, it’s great to have you. This podcast is about trying to get to the person behind the persona, and we tend to sort of start with the same question and the same question. But the first question generally is how did you grow up? What kind of kid were you? How did you get Stenstrom?

[00:01:14] Yesterday, she was not even on the horizon, I’m from a family of doctors and some dentists in there, and it just grew up with a passion for cricket. And everything I did was about being out there, being playing sport. And that’s all I wanted to do. And so that’s what I did. I just remember growing up playing cricket almost every single day and fortunately I was OK at it. So I then got into the county teams and had some great coaches and mentors that then took it to a level where it became quite serious. But growing up, everything was driven just all about cricket. And I remember I was I went to private school as a young boy and then went to Selective Grammar School. And I was struggling academically in this year of one hundred. And I was like between nineteen ninety five. And we had our headmaster meetings and he said and I said, he said, if you’ve got anything to say, I said, I think I’m struggling. And he said, but no one else plays for the first team in cricket, hockey and rugby and captains them. And so I think you’re doing OK. Keep going. And for me, for the first time growing up, that was the first affirmation that I had had because I’d grown up in a household where, you know, Dad would work, mum would be at home.

[00:02:32] And often, you know, I think Indian or all across the board, but we’re just not given many compliments. And I remember also winning a game. I was forty five out. We’d be in this really tough school and again dropped into the car is like, why did you get up? You could have. I mean, I was like, so I grew up with very few affirmations and my sister was really bright and she was academically driven. And so I just think that I was a really happy child, don’t get me wrong. But what I look back there was never that much well done. Well done. There was a lot of love and there was a lot of love because we had a huge family and that was amazing. But I grew up in a very happy household and I was told that it was okay to play cricket and do some stuff. I suppose as I got older, there was a little bit more pressure from parents to do some studying is I think a lot of Indian parents do. But it wasn’t until the age of 15, I think I had a self realisation and I walked into a pharmacy again, Dad had picked me up from school and we were driving back home and he had to go pick up some medicine from from the chemist.

[00:03:38] And the pharmacist sat me down and he was OK as a bloke. So we used to see him a lot because I used to go and pick up the medicines with Dad and he just said, where are you going to end up? And I said, I just want to play cricket. And he said, What happens if that doesn’t happen? And for that, I mean, I don’t know where it came from, but I just knew at some stage I wanted to be successful not in cricket, but have to be able to do stuff that I want to do. And I knew that I had to study. And thankfully, I was in a school that was so academically driven that actually just to turn that on. And when I turned my mindset, I just naturally had affinity to maths, chemistry, biology, and I was being successful. And then again, it felt good to be successful and like anything. And the thing I learnt with my children is they will do what they enjoy. So let them enjoy stuff and let them be good at it and they will then be successful. So I then did my GCSE and did my A-levels. And as I was doing my A-levels, it was then what am I going to do still? And I still want to just play cricket because at this stage I was now playing for Berkshire.

[00:04:40] I was playing the first team at Redding and I still knew I had to do a degree and must do a degree. You got to just go play cricket. So then I was playing, I was playing cricket and biology was the quickest way I could get in and out of university quickly. And then I started doing some. They set us up for work experience and solicitors and dentistry. And actually dentistry was OK. It was it was a complete there was a game for every single patient. You have to win the game every time. It was great feeling, great import, whatever. And just in the side where I did my work experience in early and reading what a great bloke just set me on as a mentor to say you will be great at this, you are great with people. You love all your handi stuff. This is all we do. This is what you should do. And that gave me the impetus to change my whole UCAS form at the age of 17 from biology through to dentistry. And I would say that would be my childhood. In a nutshell.

[00:05:40] It was Jackson who convinced you that dentistry was the right career. You were going into Solicitors’ wherever, doing a bit of work experience here and there. And what was it during that work experience that made you think this is really what I want to do? Was it was it that parallel to the games in cricket that, you know, you’re winning at this, you winning at that? Or what was it about that work experience that made you think what this is what I’m going to focus my UCAS problem?

[00:06:05] You know, probably it was very much the people you were with people the whole time, and it didn’t feel like an office and it felt like it was practical. And, you know, dentists have this sort of feeling when you’re looking at them. They’re always on holiday. They drove nice cars and and it all just seemed about right. But the fact that I was with people and this list of three holidays a year minimum and I was like, oh, that sounds OK as a profession to go into. And in those days you needed BBC or BBC. I definitely won’t get into dentistry now, but I mean, thank goodness, you know, we could get in and then start our undergraduate.

[00:06:47] And so what school were you what sort of student? Where were you? Swati Smart kid. Top of the class somewhere in the middle.

[00:06:54] No, I definitely started. I was OK in primary school and we were all doing our stuff. And then as soon as I hit, I would say a medium to large pond. I became a very small fish and I knew I was a small fish and that was OK because in the sports world I was OK and everything sort of balanced. And I sort of felt I was I was appreciated and I had my place and sport kept me afloat, I would say at that time, because, you know, to be in that sort of percentile the whole time through your school thinking not that clever, not that clever. And then when the headmaster says, you know, what is the point, one percent in the country that go to these type of schools and you just so happen to be in the 90 percent, it’s OK. So I don’t think I was. I just think I had potential, but I just wasn’t interested in exploring that. But then when I did and I found some sort of form and some sort of rhythm in terms of studying, and then you got rewarded for it, it felt pretty good. And therefore, I would say I’m very much driven on target driven and rewards. And I would say that that hasn’t changed to some degree. I love applying for these awards that are there in dentistry and things have now sort to calm down a little bit because Shivani is now a judge within the private industry awards. That’s my life. So I just feel like, you know, achieving something. And now it’s now in the business world. It’s just that I would say I’m a achiever and I like setting myself my own goals. I definitely wasn’t a swoll. I didn’t spend much time studying, but I did enjoy learning at that stage when I then found out it was interesting. And you honed in to maths, chemistry, biology, A-levels, and I say that’s when it changed. I enjoyed learning

[00:08:40] Something. You said, you know, you were talking about Asian parents not giving compliments. And I can relate to that obviously was a different time back then, but you turned out really well from it. So then with your own kids, did you feel the need to be the same or did you feel the pain of that and want to address that? Because I remembered the first time my dad telling me he was proud of me was when I fitted eight veneers on him twenty twenty seven years old or something. But because he’d never said it before, I really felt it. But then as a reaction to that, now I tell my kids I’m proud of them all the time. And my feeling is maybe, maybe I’m overstating it and. Well, how do you handle your kids?

[00:09:28] Yes. And so, look, I have three kids, 11 year old, and my twins are five. And I think the biggest thing I try and do is provide a home with a lot of love because I think life is hard. And that’s the bit I figured out. Life is hard. And actually to come back to a loving environment is so important. And so that just allows your child to then be who they want to be. But when it comes to disciplining, definitely I have discipline and I think that’s part of growing up and understanding rules and pushing boundaries. And I am very much I’m proud of you, but I sometimes do feel a bit like you, I would say, because I knew now I would have perhaps had not got to where I am today if I hadn’t wanted my parents adoration. And so I think there is a fine balance between giving them love and telling them I’m proud of them. And I don’t think I’ve found that, by the way, because I’m a big softy with my three girls. And but I just think there is that line and there’s that line of making them feel their loved, but actually understanding this discipline and wanting them to be the best they can be. And I think that’s what our parents wanted. You know, there was no mollycoddling. We just had to get on with it. We never saw our parents. They never helped us with our homework we just sat at, whereas now it’s so different. We’re so involved in our children’s lives. And is that a good thing or a bad thing? Again, I don’t know. I don’t know

[00:10:58] If it’s it’s funny. When you when you were speaking about your dad, it just reminded me of mine, the accident, everything made Be Gone book. But the interesting thing is, you know, I’ve come home and say I’ve got ninety seven percent in a maths test. And he said, what happened to the three.

[00:11:14] Yeah, I mean, we’ll all about first.

[00:11:21] So I do really resonate there. And I do think that that for me growing up I had a point to prove right. And it was well how do I get that extra three percent, how do I make my dad proud, etc., etc.. And there wasn’t a great deal of confidence back then. But I do think to me it was a driving force. But in answer to your Payman question question, I’m the total opposite. So loads of loads of hugs, loads of well done, proud of you. Compliments, blah, blah, blah. But you do you do kind of sit back and sometimes think, are you overdoing it? Is everything an achievement? You know, it’s hard to know what the right thing to do is, right?

[00:12:00] Yeah. Prav I just come one other thing. I mean, I was one of three Asian people in my school. You know, I’m born and brought up in Redding and the other two were brothers of half growing. So they were really English actually. So, you know, there were very few ethnic people in my school and then there was somebody that they enjoyed. And actually I look back on it and I think, well, that was quite tough. But I think sport cut through everything. And I never had an issue with any of that. And I then look, here are the stories. But I think it’s harder for me to know that actually I’m comfortable in my own skin and I felt I had to. Through just because I had to prove and I think there’s no hardship in a difficulty that you go through as a child because that hardship allows you to become the character you’re going to become. And actually, I’ll share with you, my daughter has some difficulty at school from a couple of the other girls. And I sort of dealt with in a way that what have you learn rather than I’m so sorry.

[00:13:05] I was like, I’m so sorry you went through that, obviously. But tell me what you’ve learnt and how you’re feeling and how would you do that next time. And I didn’t make it a big issue. And my parents definitely didn’t make race a big issue for me growing up. And it was never a big thing. And I would say, as I tell you a little bit more about me into cricket and then becoming a member of the AMCC and then a committee member, I would say all of that background of any all of that is to do with the fact that race was never a thing and I never saw me as a colour. And I think that more that we can make our children feel multicultural from whatever background you’re from. I think that would be a great thing. And I think there’s too much emphasis put on race and the differences that have been achieved. That’s not looking at a thing going forward, which actually then makes the child feel like he’s got to act like something or somebody some.

[00:14:00] You may be lucky in that where you were in reading, there were so few Asians that you were a curiosity. You know, if there were loads of Asians taking the jobs of people, you might have felt it more. Maybe, but but let’s move on from from race, because we talk about that too much, like you just said. Tell me this to me. You sound like a proper competitive person. And, you know, competitiveness has its massive advantages because you set goals. You get that dopamine rush when you win and all that. But I want to hear about the downside of being a competitive person. I mean, do you end up sometimes comparing yourself with others too much or or being really down when you don’t win, when you get in cricket or whatever?

[00:14:46] Yeah, look, I do self isolate if I wasn’t to win, but that’s more just retrospection of what I could have done better. And again, that works on a day to day basis in dentistry. You know, you can have a great day, but you know that you could have done that implant a bit better or finish those veneers a bit better. And so, again, the photography, such an amazing thing, because that’s my teacher on a day to day basis, when I’m doing my dentistry, the patient will walk out saying, well, thanks so much. But actually my will to want to get better is inbuilt advantage.

[00:15:25] Again, I’m sure that was a disadvantage.

[00:15:27] Yeah, but I don’t see us disadvantage at all because actually if I’m competitive, I’m just trying to self improve myself the whole time. And I’m not one to compare from a very young age. My dad being the doctor, he was set one thing straight, really early. Don’t compare yourself to anybody. It just make you unhappy. And actually that’s where my line is actually. For me, it’s just it’s about me and it’s about me and my family. And so obviously we all were different hats at different times. Once as a dentist. One’s a husband, one’s a father, one’s is a friend. And all of these things, it’s I’m wishing well. And so when you wish well for people, I believe that people wish well for me. And that’s karma. So I actually, you know, you asked me, is there anything downside about this? Well, I’ve been trained that there isn’t a downside to being competitive. It just means I know myself and I just would self isolate for a period, make sure I understand. Maybe it might be the drive back home, maybe cricket. I’d probably go in my room for a little bit. I was never a tantrum person. And those that, you know, I don’t shout don’t get angry like I’m not an ant, that is. So there’s no angst in me and I’m wishing well. And so there’ll be times that you actually say, God, that team played really well. And I would then draw on how that team played so well to improve myself.

[00:16:46] So an advantage.

[00:16:49] I hope that I’m not a question, but I don’t see is that.

[00:16:53] Yeah. So tell us about then why did you come work for Jackson as well, or does that just work experience.

[00:17:01] No, like he stayed in my mentor. Even today we speak and we meet and and we. What a great guy. Yeah, exactly. And he I would say he’s firmly one of my mentors that seeing me to my point now in my journey hasn’t finished. But I think that everybody needs mentors in every shape or form through through their life. And I love the fact that clubhouse has been able to access everybody. Now, you can access all these people, you know, these podcasts. You can access people and understand them better. When we were growing up, there was none of this and everybody was seen as an isolated entity. And I think the community. Dentistry and the difficulties we face in isolation in our surgeries, as well as the mental stresses that we take. I would definitely say all of this is positive. If you could keep the barrier of comparison to yourself, to others is a wonderful place because we get isolated. And the fact that you’ve had so many great people on your series so far. And thank you so much, by the way, guys, for having me. That’s really amazing. But I feel honoured to be on here because the people you’ve had on before. But all of this leads to it’s it’s individual, your journeys individual. But I still believe that you’ve got to find your own true north. So tell us about your first practise.

[00:18:24] I’ll tell you quickly, my dad was quite funny. So I went straight from there into VTE from university and VTE was brilliant. I had a mentor again called Pip Gary while in the high street of Slough. I would see everybody in anything and everything was OK if I got it wrong, it was OK. It was all about numbers, except he never came in to teach me dentistry. It never came in. We would have a meeting once a week and it would be on the business of dentistry. He loved the business of dentistry and I’d have to go to the associates to find out how I did that. Could I improve on that? What material using for that. And again, we’ve talk about mentors and people have influenced you. Massive influence on me. He made me understand from an outset the business of dentistry is a business as well as the dentistry. And so therefore, you’ve got in my life two great dentists or business people giving me advice. And therefore my shortfall was very much. Now the clinical side of it. And I felt at the end of that year I wanted to learn more about dentistry and I went to become a house officer, guys. And that’s an interesting story in itself, because they hadn’t had any non graduates. And I’m a Birmingham graduate, be a House officer in the hundred twenty years or whatever at guys.

[00:19:42] And because of this Europe and now they’re becoming kings, they had to invite other people from outside. So they said, OK, the first 12 generally get selected in the year guys to be house offices. So the first 10 did. And they offered to sell and they didn’t even apply for it. Just somebody on my VTE just said, listen, you might want to apply. I know this is going on. It won’t go to the market. And I applied and Nigel Fisher, who was selecting who got it, who got out, I went to see him speak and I said I sent my application and there’s my name, Samir Patel. And he said, Yeah, you’re the cricketer. And I said, Yeah, I’d love to come and be on that team. And then that was the end of that. And I met Shivani, that guy. She was in my group of house officers. And so we had such a phenomenal group that year. We were out a lot and we had a lot of fun. And then dentistry from there was I was still playing a lot of cricket. I was playing England amateurs. I was playing Minor County Cricket Worcester for a little bit with when I was at university and I wanted to go and do a season in Australia playing cricket. And Fraser McDonald, who’s a guy’s in charge of orthodontics, sounded a bit like that.

[00:20:50] Don’t be silly. You can’t go and just give up that issue and go and play cricket because you’ll get crap on your CV. So the next day turned up with a fax, with a job interview and and so what a great bloke. He sort of piece it altogether, new someone out there and had this job for me. So I rang this dinner at 12:00 midnight, say, look, Frasers said I should ring you. I’m coming out to play cricket. I’d love to come and work. She said, just come out and we’ll give you a job. I said, Don’t you have to sponsor me on that? I just come out and give you a job. So did my MSDS at the end of that House of the year and I flew to Australia and I went the next day to go and see Donna. I should I got a job for you. Like, okay, so what do you recommend we do? She goes, Well, I’ve got somebody finishing two and a half weeks. Maybe I could offer you that post, but you’ve got lots to do with registration. And anyway, it all worked out really well. I worked at United Dental Hospital for six months, played cricket for University of New South Wales. And again, we won the great championships out there.

[00:21:58] So we had a phenomenal group of players. And I came back and by that time I met Shivani and we’d got married and I landed a job with Oasis in Twyford, which is again near where I live, near Redding. And again, there was a lot of emphasis on understanding the business. So again, I was just trying to find my form and I did Krystle’s course. I did the stuff of implants. Eastman again, I was thriving knowledge because I feel I was being given business of dentistry, knowledge and understanding how that was. But I was still thriving of now having to understand dentistry. And the one thing I would say that we talk about children earlier, the one thing I’ve learnt from that journey to that point was don’t put your kid out. I was so not burnt out the age of twenty three that I was so thirsty to educate myself at that stage on what I wanted to educate myself on. And I would say that would be a big thing that I’ve learnt from my experiences and I’m passing on to my children, that let’s have a lot of fun. Let’s find out what it is that you’re good at. And as a dad, my job is to get the best out of you and for you to enjoy your life. So, yeah, that’s that’s my point to the oasis.

[00:23:19] It seems to me that your your education is almost like back to from when it comes to practise owners. So a lot of practise owners dive into a practise or a squat. They don’t know what they’re getting themselves into. And by default, they have to learn the business of dentistry. It’s, you know, live or die. Whereas for you it seems like your first job, it was all about the business of dentistry. And the clinical thing was a side thing that you have to find, seek help from other people. And then once again, to Oasis. Do you think that’s the secret to how you’ve been so successful in business with your practise? And also moving on to you’re going to tell us a little bit later on about your business courses. Do you think do you think that has been the key? And do you think dentistry should include a bit of business as part of the curriculum?

[00:24:10] Yeah, I mean, the course is really an understanding of that. We’re not taught it. And I think in dentistry, it’s very much your training, your time for money. And so when we move forward, if there’s anything I could teach younger dentists is invest early and if you invest early, the compound effect of your investing early will mean that you can make the decision whether you work or not when you’re older. And understanding that, as well as the right investments, obviously, I think takes a lot of pressure. And I speak to a few dentists about ethical fighting and making sure we stay on the right side of dentistry and doing it properly. Payman knows me very well in the way that I work in my practise as one of the most clinical awards for any practise. For me, that is the most important 11. So, you know, we have Richard Fields, Shiraz Rollcast, Shibani Patel and Antilla, all these superb clinicians, and it’s all about the quality of dentistry. And therefore, if you’re doing quality dentistry, you will be looked after and it will look after itself. But if you can augment here with investment and the understanding of financial intelligence, I believe that you can make clearer decisions on your life, on how you treat the patient and having them at the primary interest of what you’re doing. And it all comes together and your energy will flow a bit better and your karma will be a bit more relaxed as well, because I think it’s a very stressful environment otherwise piecing it all together.

[00:25:50] So what you’ve what you’ve just said there really makes sense in terms of everything that you’ve put together. But you came from this cricket playing dentist who’s worked in a few practises, has been given a bit business knowledge. What was the actual journey to get from an associate oasis to having this multi award winning practise with super talented clinicians? If you just put that out there and you think about another dentist out there listening to this is such a lofty goal, how do you how do you recruit these super talented people? What is it that you attract them with? And then how do you get to that point? What was your journey from the point that you were an associate to where you are now?

[00:26:32] So from Twyford, again, I believe networking is so important and thankfully I enjoy networking. I said to you earlier, you know, the people side of things I really enjoy. And I went to the PTA local committees and would listen to the lectures in the evenings and ended up being the chairman and the chairman for the GDP. A guy called Steve reduced our practise in Henley and he approached me and he said, look, you’ve got a good reputation. I’m looking for somebody to take over my practise and the partnership. And so I went to see him. And it’s this wonderful Georgian building in the middle of Hanalei High Street. It’s a beautiful building, great you listed. And I was just blown away by it. And then I walked in and it was just, do I belong here? This is so nice. And my two partners were 10 and 12 years older than me respectively. And I thought, well, this is going to be a great training ground for me to to work and and now go to the next step. And I was so excited to own a practise. And I remember Shivani, who always so supportive. It’s like, how are we going to pay for that monthly expenditure that we have to put in the fall? And I said, you know, I think you’ll be OK and you have to take that leap of faith. And then I joined it.

[00:27:47] But interestingly, when I joined it, it was actually very difficult because the vision of my partners was not my vision. And so finding true North had not been found at this stage. It was a tough and quite a few years where I was in this place. The vision of where bit, how they were working, where I was working, the way I wanted to work, the way I want the practise looked like I was I was a little bit claustrophobic. And at that stage, I had now given up playing county cricket and I was just playing club cricket for Ealing, which was great, but I was training quite hard still. And then Anthony, who’s my partner up in London, and he’s an orthodontist. I really respect the way that you talk and the way you work and the way you’re doing stuff. And I’m an orthodontist. Would you I’ve got this. Would you like to do something together? I said I loved doing something to the because I don’t feel I’ve really found what it is that I want to find here. And it was I hadn’t found my true north. And at that stage I didn’t know what it was. And he had found an orthodontic practise in the West End. And when we did all our due diligence, it was very clear that 90 percent was coming from the Internet and 10 percent was referral.

[00:28:57] And so I said, come on, let’s give it a go. So we remortgaged our houses, we put all our savings and we put it into eleven. And we were both had our own practises and we started. So Shravani nice and Anstee started that two days a week and so. Well that’s grown now. Then it was then I brought the then this building blocks, this is all building blocks. So then it was about general dentistry in and then we brought another orthodontist. Since they were busy I brought Peter in who’s my first associate. I brought in there’s a general dentist and now were eighteen of us. But that’s grown just three blocks of getting busier. And if I can share with you how we started at again, it started Prav. As you said, it didn’t start with clinical dentistry. It started with Accenture coming in to come and tell us how a business should run before we started it, so we had capabilities and the orthodontics was divide, it was they were given three options. You can have a match at that stage with metal, metal, metal, ceramic, ceramic, ceramic. And that was their option. And he said, Starbucks, do it. You give them three options. They’ll pick the middle one 80 percent, pick the middle one. So now what you want is 80 percent. Pick that middle one. So we were like, OK, that’s what we’re going to do.

[00:30:10] And then we built in what our overheads were and then we built in how many patients we want to see how we were going to market, how we had to increase our marketing to get those numbers in. And then we achieved the target. And, you know, a lot of it is knowing your numbers as a leader. And from the beginning, I knew my numbers and so happy to say we’ve grown that business 600 percent since we’ve owned it. But it was from understanding that my staff this is my numbers, this is what we’re doing. And then having a plan and having a name. And every year we would have an aim of this is what we want to try and do. It doesn’t mean that we’re selling more stuff. It just means we need to open the top on marketing a little bit more now because that’s not happening. And again, talking about where that comes from, it comes from us being stable and having incomes from our other associates, our other partner jobs, basically. And so therefore, there’s never drive to make 11 a money spinning machine or it was just about having dentistry. And we tore down the whole of dentistry and made it the most remarkable customer experience that we we thought was possible. And we did that with Accenture. To start with

[00:31:22] A couple of questions. When you say CPI’s OK, we’ve got, I don’t know, top line. Bottom line. Did you focus on one of those two? Firstly, no. Well, which one of those two?

[00:31:34] We basically had KPIs. Just understand what our aim was as a

[00:31:38] Company backing key KPIs that you were looking at a

[00:31:41] Large number of bonders, for example, because it was all it was just orthodontics at that stage and that’s all it was. And then we got the lease for upstairs. So at the same time of our profits were trying to refurbish upstairs. And you’ve been upstairs to my room and that space there. And again, it’s it’s an environment where it’s conducive to people wanting to have dentistry and opening their mind of seeing what is possible. So CPI’s a number of bonds, number of new patients seen. And it was very simple. No leads, number of new patients booked in. A number of people went ahead with treatment. That was the journey at that stage.

[00:32:19] And what about what about that sort of, you know, looking at your place and the way you’re discussing it, you’re trying to create sort of raving fans out of your patients instead of just patients. So what are the things you do to to make that happen with a few tips you can give us?

[00:32:37] Yeah, I’d love to share that with you. The first is all receptionists are trained. If somebody asks for money, just ask them about where are they travelling from and if they’ve got if they need a crown and they’ve got a broken tooth. I’m so sorry about that. Are you in any pain at the moment? It’s the whole deflection is not money, because I don’t want to trade money. I want to trade a feeling. So the journey will start from the beginning of somebody feeling well, they’re a bit different. They might make three calls and they’ll say four hundred pounds. Six hundred pounds. And I’m so sorry that you’ve got this problem. Can we get you in today or tomorrow? Is it sharp? How do you know which I mean regarding the Crown I can’t tell because we’ve got a variety of crowns. But let Sameer make the decision which is best for you because that’s, that’s his job. And that would be my job. Your job.

[00:33:31] So the interesting thing is a simple thing, you’re absolutely right. I’ve got a broken tooth that I’m so sorry from the from the receptionist is actually the first thing I’d like to hear is

[00:33:45] How can I help this, my name. And so and then at the end, when you were 11, if any of you want to call calling. I would want your feedback. They should say, is there anything more I can do for you at the end of the call, even with me when I ring? Is there anything more I can do to me? So therefore, you’ve got a concierge at the end of the line for you. So therefore, now, really, money is not the number, it’s oh my God, I’ve got somebody looking after me. And then it’s about when they turn up and the feel of the place and the balance of what the website looks like and the aura and the colour of your surgeries and your waiting room. And the trust starts from there of like you’ve walked from your website into the waiting room and they’re feeling this is OK. This is exactly what I thought it would be. And trust starts there. And then they come and see you and you just want to know about them. And we use photographs, we discuss what their concerns are. But when we do it, I always say that if Henry and Henry Ford did market research, they wanted faster horses and he built a car. So when you come and see somebody who feels they can look after you and who’s done all these years of training, it shouldn’t be the passion that drives the treatment plan. It should be the dentist to educate the patient. And this is what it is. And at that stage, we then click how we make the plan and then taken away by a treatment coordinator. And I don’t really talk about money at that stage because my job’s health care driven and therefore often we didn’t have the treatment coordinator and sometimes we still don’t.

[00:35:22] But I think that’s a really important side of it. If you want to convert large treatment plans and make people have comprehensive care dentistry. So a lot of what we do is at 11:00 is when people have that single to dentistry for many years and they’re now looking for somebody who can take care of them for comprehensive care, they often see us. But actually, in your own practises, I would love you guys to be saying what I’ve been doing, single tooth dentistry. A lot of it’s going on. Let me take some photos and let me show you what I think we should be doing to take care of your mouth, to make sure you have less emergencies. And that style of dentistry takes a lot of pressure off your staff yourself. Everybody has a role. One of the I mean, I have so many mantras, but one of the thing is leave your jersey in a better place. And I don’t understand why people work for somebody for 20 years. I mean, like, what are you doing? That’s funny, but I’ve had four CEO roles of eleven Dental. I don’t want the same people working for me. You know, my receptionist who’s now my practise manager. I have a dream coordinator who is my receptionist. And it’s like we want everybody to keep getting better, learn more, learn more. It’s just not me. It’s not my clinical team. It’s everybody. So when I started in the practise managers I had, they would not be my practise manager. I want today. My treatment is not the same treatment coordinates and how

[00:36:39] Much training do you do for your team? What’s the what’s the sort of you know, because these are Prav knows this better than anyone else. Right? You can you can talk to a team about phone manner once, and they might do it for a couple of months, but it needs constant training. So what would you do? What sort of training regime for these people?

[00:36:59] Yeah, I think I just trying to get them passionate about their job and passion about their job means that they will over deliver to you as your principal and macro manager. Don’t micromanage at all. I said you earlier, I’ve got very relaxed demeanour about myself. I tell them I’m there, but I’m not interested in micromanaging. And there are just a few ground rules and don’t come to me with a problem. Come up to me with a solution because I’m employing good people to have the solutions. And it might be I change those, but then you will understand what it is that we want to try and achieve after a few times. You’ve got it wrong. And I would say meeting after meeting after meeting, you know, there’s a lot of meetings and there’s an understanding of culture. That’s the thing I set within the practise. So then when somebody joins, they’re totally understanding. So at the moment, the reception was just taken on a buyer for River Island and she’s got no experience in dentistry. However, she’s a buyer for River Island, who is great at customer service and the ability to understand finance and tracking and following up and all the rest of it.

[00:38:05] So I think trying to identify really amazing people who have a growth mindset similar to you. And I’ll give you an example of my practise manager. She came as a receptionist with a bit of accountancy background, and now she’s my practise manager. So everybody will grow and you want them to grow. And Richard Branson’s thing is we want my I want my staff to grow because they are looking after my business. And, you know, I’m only there one and a half days a week in London. So they represent me the whole time. And sometimes that’s a disadvantage because I would love to get more time and more training and and more influence. But actually, I think sometimes it works as a positive because they can just get on, not have the pressure of the boss. And I think the way that one leads in is a reflection of you. If you are comfortable, you will let them be comfortable. And I think that’s the place that we want to try and make Dental take them to a lot more and put them in a place that they feel more comfortable.

[00:39:09] Now, you keep referring back to True North. Just tell us a little bit more about what that means to you and what your true north is.

[00:39:18] True north is when you you’re doing something and you just go to sleep to refresh and go again. And so that’s true north, that’s where we all need to be, that’s where everybody wants to be, where you just go, you’re doing something. So I got a nice bedtime. There we go to sleep, go to bed and then wake up next morning. And I’d have no alarm clock for four years. I’d wake up at five, 30, do my yoga meditation, write down my list of stuff I got to do, play with the kids. I’m out the door. Go again. So true north is when you find something you’re so passionate about that it’s not a work. It’s not a job. Of course, everybody has days that they don’t feel the need or it’s a job. But actually, once you find something that you’re so passionate about, actually it doesn’t become a job and therefore life becomes very easy. And all the energies within you flowing and your energy level and your and your the whole movement of you is feeling great. It’s not feeling tense. It’s not feeling stress. It’s not feeling worried. And a bit of it’s finance in today’s world. I’d love for people to understand how to invest better as an example and books they should read and all of this education. I generally have three or four books on the go the whole time. You know, wherever I get a chance like that or even if I’m having a massage, I’ve got an audio book on like it’s going in in the car. It just clicks in. There’s no second that we’re not listening to an audio book or thirsty for knowledge or understanding. Now, not everybody is going to be is wired like me, but thirsty for knowledge means you’re growing yourself. And I suppose that comes through Payman to earlier my staff. I want them to feel that as well. I my job is to make them the best they can be, not hold onto them for ten or fifteen years in a practise because my practise then becomes stale.

[00:41:16] What are some of your favourite books, books that changed your

[00:41:20] Books that changed me? I think the telomere effect fairly recently is a wonderful book about health and it’s written by Nobel Prise winner. And it makes you understand how you can change yourself very quickly. The telomere effect. So that’s health. I love legacy. And it’s all about why the All Blacks have a success rate of 80 percent and the next best team is in the 60 percent. And it’s because they have a great culture and it me and it’s the most to most experienced team members will clean down the dressing room and leave it as they found it, regardless of wherever they play. So, again, that’s a great book for culture. I think Richard Khordad, to make people understand money and being financially free and just simple sort of understanding of finance, I think that’s a great book. I could keep going. I missed a great book, Just Understanding Business. And again, I love Simon Sinek and his mentality to infinite business mentality. Same in myself. It doesn’t stop. Why should it stop? Why should we finish? Nothing should finish. Everything should be infinite

[00:42:32] And do so in all of this. What you’ve been talking about, it sounds super successful. You’ve started off this journey. We mentioned in business from day one as an associate right through to having probably one of the most successful practises in the UK. And what really rings true there is you spend one and a half days there. So it really is a true business, right? It operates without you. What have been some of the darkest moments during that journey where you’ve really hit rock bottom? Can you share some of those with us? Because there must have been, even despite having all these advantages of being tuned into business from job number one, it must have been some big mistakes or some dark moments that you can share with us where it just it wasn’t quite going to fun.

[00:43:17] Yeah. First of all, I have made a lot of mistakes, and I think you speak to anybody that’s successful, they’ll say that they made a lot of mistakes and therefore I am happy to try them. And if you’re happy to try stuff, of course, you fall over. So I would say I think I probably would have made more mistakes than most, but that’s part of just giving it a go and then having that confidence. I hope it works and put my energy into that. And I would say constantly we sort of get it wrong and we’ve got to readjust it. Even the other day with one of my reception team, I sort of said we’re going to change things around. And then she came to see me and told me her point of view and I realised now I got it wrong. Absolutely, I got it wrong. But I would say my hardest days were definitely when I became a principal in a practise and I knew there was no direction, which was similar to where I wanted to take the practise. And I was being told that my style of Dental was different to theirs. And the comprehensive approach is not the right way.

[00:44:20] So I would say that that was very difficult because I was going through a period of playing cricket three or four times a week and working three times a week and then going to working five days a week, as well as being an owner, being a principle, being aligned with my partners that weren’t aligned with me. And they are great people, by the way. They’re really lovely people. It’s just they weren’t aligned with me. And I’m still here. I’m here in Henley giving this interview and I’m great friends with them. We are now a lot of water under the bridge with no recourse of what happened then, because I’ve learnt from it and often my tormentors have become my mentor. So I love the fact that it was so difficult then and I became even thirstier to become better as a dentist. So I would say they were definitely my hardest days. And also when we took over 11, when we had sort of roll the dice of Prav putting everything in and I will still go back to none of the three partners got paid for one year and only Shivani got paid the second year. And then we started drawing in the year three.

[00:45:28] So again, there were times where we had our principles in place and we weren’t drawing any money, but we were fortunate that we had other businesses where we could live from. But they were not easy days because you’ve taken over this massive seven, four, seven business in central London and you’re young and everybody’s older than you and everybody appears very established and very confident. And I haven’t even got any grey hairs. And and it was just tough. But I suppose my network at that stage, they were all entrepreneurs and they were going through the same thing. And I would say that I had a lot of solace in hanging out with friends that were going through the same as what I was at that stage, especially when we took over 11. And it was really struggling to get off the ground with this big jumbo jet. And I just think it was great having people around me going through the same stuff. So I would say they would be my darkest or hardest days. But but saying that Prav, as you know me, a very positive, they became the most important days for me to be who I am today

[00:46:36] While we’re on it. What’s been your biggest clinical mistakes and what have you learnt from those?

[00:46:43] Yeah, I think the biggest clinical mistake is to treat anybody. And actually, I’m such a big believer in treating people that you want to treat and have the same values and have come to see you. And so I’m lucky enough now. A bit more experience that often happens as it comes to recommendation, but when you start, you want to treat everybody and if I can make a big sort of shout out to people starting their careers or starting their practise, I would say just make sure you’re comfortable with everybody, Yewtree and some you might not get right. And you can sort of get through it, but don’t treat everybody because they’re going to be some people you can never, ever satisfy. Even if you did the best dentistry that you could do and you can get you know, you could get the ball out the ground six out of six and they would still not be happy. And I think preparation of having a good team

[00:47:37] Is a particular episode that you can

[00:47:42] Tell the wrong to perforate the canal, that sort of thing.

[00:47:45] No, I go back to when I think guys, we used to drink so much like it used to be a concern to these students, these White House officers. And I remember who I used on PEDs and this boy, 16 year old boy, came in for an extraction of a lower left six. And I had had a skinful the night before and I was wearing my mask and I said to my nurse, can you call the patient and sign the consent? He’s 16 from the parents. And please don’t bring the parents in because I stink of booze. And he came in and I stop giving the local on the opposite side, just put the needle in and I came out straight away, going up the wrong side, put it in the other side, gave the local and the poor kid said to me, why don’t you put it in both sovereigns? I said, sometimes as we cross over nodes. And I said, from that day, I am not. So that was the end of me boozing or having more than a couple of glasses before I work. And so that was it. I would say that that was not a good place to be. And I learnt my lesson very quickly.

[00:48:55] That lesson is kind of obvious. What the previous thing you talked about, was there a patient that you couldn’t please or you didn’t judge them? Right. We had Paul Pomerol and he said the lesson he had a massive situation with his brother, with being sued and all that. And he said the lesson you learnt from that was that even the people you really, really, really get on with could turn. So you advised that you don’t treat everyone. So he was saying sometimes you think the person is absolutely right and it could turn ugly. So did you have one of those episodes

[00:49:33] You saw the lady of 11, about 20 percent fly in to see us. And there was one time a lady had come in from Jersey and she was a lovely Indian lady. And I think I even said, I’m going to treat you like I would treat my mama. I think I said that she brought up later on and she had some concerns and we got along so well and it was orthodontics followed by four a.m. and it would seem like that was the plan. And at the end of orthodontics, she was super happy. And the Provisionals, she was super happy. And always after I was on, I see everybody for a review to check the colour, to control everything. And that’s my protocol. And I went against that protocol because I rang her and said, how is everything? She said, everything’s fine about this one. Maybe we can make that bit short and rotate it. And I said, okay. And she came back and she wasn’t she wasn’t the phone. And she signed the disclaimer after we call them, and she was happy. And in the end she went to five consults to see if it was OK.

[00:50:41] And I paid for those consults and all those all the Dental said it was absolutely superb. Yeah, she wasn’t happy. And in the end, she came back and said, actually, I’ve now had some time. I think it looks really good, but I want half my money, otherwise I’m going to kick up a stink. So what do you do? You then manage it to say actually, well, you’ve reached it and I won’t tell you what I did because I don’t think it’s relevant to the whole thing. But what it means is stick to your protocol, stick to the way you do stuff. And again, all of these are just learning lessons. You know, when you’re in it, you think, oh, God, what a helmet, why do I do that? But then you realise actually stick to your protocol, stick to the system, stick to what you do and try not to go out of that too much, because actually that’s when you produce the best clinical dentistry and the most effective.

[00:51:34] And I mean, look, you put the final videos on. You said you liked it, then you cemented it on his face. You didn’t like it. Is that what happened?

[00:51:43] Yeah, pretty pretty much. I came back for the review and then said, no, I’m not that happy with it,

[00:51:48] Because if you had followed your protocol, you still would have probably ended up in the same situation in a way.

[00:51:53] Perhaps, perhaps. But again, when I look back at myself and said, where did I go wrong? Because I. And again, you know, the sports mentality is you could try to control the bulls. That’s what happened. But then you do. I gave the money back. That’s not the right thing to do because I didn’t want the hassle. But I don’t I know you so well.

[00:52:14] And this is supposed driven person. Let’s talk about the courts. Well, it’s interesting, man. It’s interesting. Sometimes you have to buy your way out of this sort of problem, even if it’s a good idea, it’s your principles. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. Tell us about the course. But because it’s a very interesting idea, it’s a year course for purely non-clinical stuff, including some clinical as well.

[00:52:44] Yeah. And so, look, it came from lock down.

[00:52:47] And I mean, it’s got a name.

[00:52:50] Yeah, it’s called the Dental Entrepreneurial Programme. And you’ll find on a Dental Leaders dotcom elite Dental Leaders dot com. And the programme is called Dental Entrepreneurs Programme. And it’s very much for people who are interested in the non-clinical side of things, but also how to marry that up into the clinical side. And the whole of the first. It’s a module, it’s over one year. So so we’re all together. It’s only a small cohort of limited numbers. And we then go on this journey together like an MBA style. And so the first two days will be all about finding your true north, understanding what good leadership looks like, because leadership varies for everybody. It’s not the same leadership for everybody and understanding yourself. And we’re so lucky. We’ve got a Harvard Business School graduate and an educator coming to run that Hassan Khan. I mean, obviously, I’ll be sharing a lot of my stories in dentistry, but almost he is going to take care of that and say what they learn at Harvard Business School about running a business and what tips that they can give. The second module is about brand and team and culture and so on, brand, again, I’ll share with the delegates exactly what we have done at 11 and why the brand is so important rather than the individual.

[00:54:16] Obviously, you’ve got to have a brand yourself as a dentist, but the brand individual is very important. And we have the GM of Nike UK coming to tell us about how they have literally pivoted from being a consumer business into a virtual business, but also what Nyaka doing to maintain their presence as a high performer. So I’m trying to bring the elite of both in business and in sport together to allow us to all understand where we’re headed because our journeys are all different. And then the team and ship is going to be run by the Clive Woodward who won, who was the leader when England won the World Cup and how he put his whole team together and the mantra of being together and how he dealt with difficult individuals and how he put them within the team and how the team planned and how they did it all together. And it’s the DNA of a champion is his lecture.

[00:55:12] And this is what all these guys will patients

[00:55:14] Know they’re either friends or people that I now know well. So, again, I’d ask them to be involved with this and so lucky that they’re open to helping people go to the next level of the third module. It becomes a little bit more clinical and understanding how we do on new patient appointments at all, the way from the phone calls, how we answer them to treatment planning and how to change single tooth dentistry to comprehensive to Dental, which is what we do every day as dentists.

[00:55:43] So that if it is, I guess maybe from the clinical aspect, most valuable piece is that

[00:55:50] I mean I mean, it’s going to it’s so exciting because that’s when we’ve now found what you’re all about. You found it. Identify where you’re going to go. But actually the clinical side is what we connect us. And so I will share with you how we convert those single tooth dentistry patients into comprehensive how we do a new patient appointment and how important photography is. And Menasche Patel from Focus is going to come and do the whole photography side of things to me on that. And then finally, it will be the fourth module is about financial intelligence, how to understand your business, but also to create wealth. And my mantra on that is most dentists are one step away from being wealthy and it’s this financial intelligence module that’s going to help you to do it.

[00:56:38] Well, of course, so it’s eight days,

[00:56:41] It’s eight clinical days, obviously, there’s a lot of reading that goes alongside the this of Harvard Business School myself, we’ve put together during these three months times your way. But there will be meetings for the cohorts through that period on their commitments through that phase. It’s going to be held at Lord’s Cricket Ground, which is the home of cricket, which is, you know, and so that really brings it home for me as well. And if you want to know more, go to Dental, Leaders dot com. And we have sold half of the course at the moment and there’s an application form on there at the moment. But I’m sure if it’s successful, we will run it another cohort in the year to come.

[00:57:19] And just what’s the investment for that programme?

[00:57:22] It’s twelve thousand pounds for the full year.

[00:57:26] So moving forward, what’s the plan for whether you’ve grown sevenfold, six fold, six fold, you’ve grown six fold. Is there an exit strategy here? Is it now a business that just sort of looks after itself? You there are one and a half days away. Is there another practise in the pipeline?

[00:57:45] And there’s a whole chain coming. Isn’t going to go now.

[00:57:49] Look, I think it’s a very boutique practise. And the people we found that work within it, we work really well. We love creating high quality dentistry. And I get a lot of joy from my dentistry there. And so there’s no plan at the moment. We there is still space to grow. And so, as always, there will be a three month board meeting with action plans in place and we will hopefully just continue growing that

[00:58:20] The practise looks. Did you change that or did it look like that when you when you bought it?

[00:58:26] I’d love to share with you those pictures of before and somehow try and get them to you. It used to be reception. There was a there was a chair in there that had no spittoon and no sink. The lounge was blue carpet with four yellow stools. The bathroom had a baby changing area. And the ladies, it was horrific. There was one nice room at the back and upstairs was just a derelict shell where a paediatric doctor used to work.

[00:58:56] Oh, so you did all of that yourself. And so did you have an interior designer and architect? And so we had an architect.

[00:59:05] And I have to say, Shivani has been instrumental in the way that we have managed that. And so I would say the architect with Shivani, because, you know, your practise is an is an extension of you and we always wanted it to be asked that was doing that. And I would say that that is one of the whole things we say. We build trust as dentists. It’s got to go from websites to the way it looks, to the way you talk and the way you present and all your literature and everything. It’s got to be on

[00:59:33] Point because stunning building. Tell me about Shibani 11. Does she have only a clinical role or does she have a management role? And how many days is she there? And where are you the rest of the week?

[00:59:46] Yes. So Shivani is a clinical partner at eleven and she said two days a week and she comes from a background of being a hospital consultant. So she very much is in charge of the day to day the systems that are put in place and the way we run the practise from a clinical side, almost bringing that that from the hospital environment. This is how it was done, this how it should be done. These are the standards. So we all have very different roles as partners at the practise and we don’t try and overlap. I don’t try and get involved with that. Yes, I’ll have input. I’m obviously running the business marketing and I’m in charge of recruiting and actually looks for technologies and how we can become more efficient in the practise. So we all have very different roles and I think that’s symbiotic relationship is is is one of the success.

[01:00:32] What you do? The rest is on the one half days you’re there, where are you?

[01:00:35] The rest from two and a half days clinical in Henley and I have Fridays nonclinical and I try and get all my letters, all of the things that you need to run a practise. But I have a lot of people around me that help me run this. So I’m a firm believer of having the right people. You can delegate to that you can trust, which allows you to then to take stuff to the next level, because if you’re in the weeds, you really can’t then start planning for the rest of it. So having good team around you to start taking stuff off of you is a critical thing I would recommend to any leader out there as well.

[01:01:11] Good questions. I go to a lot of practises where there’s no element of performance related incentivization. Do you believe in that or.

[01:01:20] No, we have never performance driven our staff because we’re a health care business. But what what they do know is that there is a target in place at the end of each month that they are not privy to. And I believe they don’t need to know it, because if they do their role right, the practise will achieve that. And so once we achieve that, we do things that I think quite extraordinary, like we have closed down June shoes and gone in and allowed the girls to pick any shoe that they want with champagne in their shop. We Nike have given us vouchers that we can pick any shoe that the girls want if they achieve that target cocktail making evenings at a local place in Mayfair around the corner. So I believe in bringing the team together on a deeper level than a financial level is actually keeps your staff and keeps them loyal. But I believe paying good staff the right amount from the beginning. So therefore, that’s not the issue.

[01:02:26] If I was an associate and I want to be ambitious, I want to work in the West and I want to maybe work at your place. Would you look for would you look for an associates? You look more for the attitude than for the skills, because I’ve talked to a lot of associates and they go, well, I’ve been on this course. I’ve been on that course. Of course. Then I talk to you cats, the owners of these big private places. And a lot of times you guys aren’t looking for that. You’re looking for the patient management more than the clinical.

[01:02:55] Yeah. I mean, we’ve never gone to market for any of the associates. They’ve all been referral recommendation to date. Yeah. So that for me is a really important part of bringing culture in, because then they’ve got they’ve got I’ve just sort of said this is how we work, this is the way we want stuff. And then I totally get it. I want to be on board. And so when you set a culture from the beginning, people then will then align to that. But I think the big thing that I look for is people are a bit like myself, absolutely committed to excellence in clinical dentistry. And so they’re always self improving the keeping going. They’re keeping learning. And I think more than ever, the quality of their photography and perhaps an Instagram account allows me to see how good they are. It’s not that Instagram is important, because if they showed me a good quality photographs of what they do, I can understand that that’s the type of person I want. So I would say clinical photography and good records and a good story book of who you are as well as well presented and the ability to be able to educate patients and speak to them and communicate with them and and engage with them. All of that is what I would be looking for. And if you’re not able to engage or be able to be with anybody like that, you’ve got to learn how to go and understand how to put yourself on, not Dental course on how to how to read course.

[01:04:16] But it’s interesting, you know, I mean, look, I don’t really practise Prav you do that. If two associates present and one has fifty thousand followers and the other doesn’t, you’re going to go for the one with fifty thousand followers on you. Why? Because he’s going to bring in patients

[01:04:32] If that’s what you want. Patients. Yeah. Or the right type of patients. Right.

[01:04:37] Do you. Well do you think so.

[01:04:41] Yeah. I think you want both of those actually I think are still on the fence that you want the right type of quality patients, you want a lot of them. But I think somebody that could that’s going to do the wrong type of dentistry is going to ruin your brand as well. At the same time, you want to feel that trust and perhaps a few meetings and getting them to spend time with you or everybody will spend the day with me before they would start anyway. So again, they know the way the practise works, that it should be as much they choose you as you choose then.

[01:05:10] Yeah, but I could imagine, for instance, if you have one or two years out of university or even five or six years out of university, coming to work at yours is one of those things that a lot of people would like to do. I mean, it’s a great position, I guess I’m saying that right. But what I need to do, it’s interesting. You know, I’d I’d say to a young guy, you know, learn Instagram and learn digital marketing before doing that. MSE Yeah. Because in our world there’s loads of people with messages. Yeah. That’s not the thing that’s going to actually put you above. It’s an interesting world we live in. I mean, I find it amazing that I’m even saying this, but things are moving quickly now. The real

[01:05:51] Issue for sure, I mean, Prav you made the point earlier that it’s that all roundedness that you want,

[01:05:56] Right.

[01:05:57] Erm actually I think there’s some practise will be dying for that and there’ll be other principles that will stay clear of that. And so that would be definitely driven by the principle and the way that that practise was run. Mm.

[01:06:11] Who does the firing. Does that.

[01:06:13] You me talk to me about that night because I do it, it never gets easier and I have that conversation with myself probably ten, fifteen times, probably more. The words I’m going to say how I’m going to do it. My heart rate’s pounding and then you just get it out of your system and it’s like a massive weight off your shoulders. But you just talk us through that, the whole process of fine and maybe an experience where you’ve had. To do it, and it’s been a little bit easier.

[01:06:39] Yeah, I’m just really open on this. It’s not quite working. These are the reasons you’re a great person. If they are, and I wish you all the best, that’s it.

[01:06:49] And it is your approach to it in the build up of it. Is it totally unemotional, just facts driven. And this is what it is. Or just you get

[01:06:59] A little bit if you got to when you know you’re I mean, you guys know me, but it’s the businesses first. It’s not me. So therefore, for the business, this is the right thing to do and therefore it’s not difficult. Yeah. And also, I’ll give you one example. We had four staff, 11 this, this. And I say this was this was D-Day for us. And I went in I fired three on one day and we had one staff because the culture that was being created was wrong. And we’re going to rebuild from here. So don’t be frightened to do that, because if the culture is wrong and somebody being the bad, get rid of them soon. I mean, I generally I would say now with experience, I would get rid of them sooner rather than later. So therefore it doesn’t become difficult.

[01:07:45] And thus I like I like that because on the one side, you’re coming across all soft and touchy feely, but on the other side, you know, you’re strong on the things you believe in. You’re strong for doing it. It’s been lovely having you know, we’re pushed for time now to Prav Joona.

[01:08:07] Yeah. Yeah. So, Semir, imagine it’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your loved ones around you and you’ve got you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of life wisdom or they’d be.

[01:08:26] Three pieces of life wisdom have infinite spirit, don’t think it’s ever going to end. Just keep going, keep going and have that infinite spirit, I think treat life like a game. And actually, it becomes really fun. Everything is like a small game. And you either win some, you lose some. And it’s OK. Don’t be hard on yourself. Worked hard enough out there. So don’t be hard on yourself and love and not hate, because actually, you know, that’s what’s going to come back to you. And if you’re somebody that enjoys love, then love back and it will come back to you.

[01:09:03] Worked love game for you guys.

[01:09:07] And how would you like to remember you spoke about legacy? What would you like your legacy to be? Samir was finished the sentence.

[01:09:18] Semir was very keen to help and was there when I needed him. I believe there’s lots of friendships out there, but I also know that we all go through ups and downs and great friends turn up when you need them the most, not when they’re superficial.

[01:09:37] So true. And if you had a month left, what would you do with your time? Play loads of cricket.

[01:09:43] Now I’m done playing cricket off now, so I’d probably be playing golf. But I would say with this infinite spirit, I would still I love travelling. I would continue to travel and go to somewhere where I hadn’t seen and explore that area and find a coffee shop and write about that in that area.

[01:10:04] Where’s your favourite place that you have been?

[01:10:07] I would say Australia is very close to my heart with with the stuff I did, but we were very fortunate. We got away before lockdown at Christmas and we probably had our best family holiday in Antigua just this Christmas. Yeah. And the girls are growing up and we would never go away for too long. Obviously, the business and the rest of it and Foreston said we’re going to lock down. So our original 10 day holiday turned into three and a half weeks out there. And that was a wonderful break and a wonderful time with the family with no agenda because we knew very little was happening when we came back.

[01:10:42] I love that, I love that. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you so much on the show.

[01:10:50] Thanks, guys. Appreciate you having me on

[01:10:53] The course at Lord’s, you know, our offices around the corner. So they pop in and say, hey, I would love that. Thank you so much, but thank you. Well, yes,

[01:11:07] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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