Month: October 2021

[00:00:00] I think the people close to you are the people who are going to support you, and you always have to remember that, but you know you are. You have family and your friends who are going to support you in it. I think the harshest criticism comes from other dentists. And I think as long as I think you’re confident in what you have posting that you feel like you have done your best for that patient. And it’s very hard for somebody to criticise it. I mean, they can say, OK, that line angle is not perfect. But so what? Because it’s a learning curve for all of us. But I think as long as you know that you’re not posting a case where it was a young, an 18 year old who needed ortho and you put in 20 porcelain veneers, you know you’re posting your best work and you think you did right by that patient, then what? What’s the concern? Somebody can criticise that. It’s not perfect, but you know, nobody’s perfect.

[00:00:52] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:10] Sometimes in life, you come across someone who you connect with straight away and then you get to know them a bit better and you realise everyone is connecting with this person straight away. Our next guest, Slaney, McGrath, Stephanie, that kind of person for me. I came across her maybe three or four years ago, really. When Instagram took off, Stephanie’s career was taking off at the same time, and since then, I’ve got to know her a lot better. Worked with her a few times, had her lecture at some of our events and always been really wonderfully surprised by the level of openness and telling the whole story which you don’t always get from teachers. Lovely to have you on the show, Slaney.

[00:01:48] Thank you very much. What an introduction.

[00:01:50] Yeah, and it’s and it’s lovely to do one with with Prav because it’s been a while since me and Prav have done gone together. But you know, we tend to start these by just getting to your backstory. Where were you born? What did your parents do? Why did you think of dentistry? What kind of kid were you?

[00:02:08] Well, I was born in London in 1990 and I was there for about a year. And then from my dad’s work, we moved to Bristol. My dad works in. He works for large breweries. I guess he was working in Bristol at the time and we lived there until I was about 10 years old.

[00:02:31] Both of my parents are Irish and they both always wanted to move back to Ireland. So when I was about 10, we packed up. The car was taken out of school one day on Easter holidays and said, You’re not going back.

[00:02:43] And we arrived in Galway in the west coast of Ireland, which is where I kind of spent all of my secondary

[00:02:49] Schooling years and is where I call home. So I then moved up to the finish school to to Dublin to study dentistry. And I guess what made me want to be a dentist, actually, I think deep down was due to a trauma when I was about nine years old and I was, Oh, I must have been less than nine. I was maybe about seven and I was climbing out of an outdoor swimming pool. My auntie had taken me out for the day to this leisure centre, and I slipped on the ladder and landed on my teeth, and I smashed lots of my front teeth and spent a lot, a lot of time in the dentist chair as a child and adolescent, having root canals, having Crohn’s, having a lot of treatment done to rehabilitate it. And I think that kind of stuck with me. And when I was choosing where I what I wanted to study in university, I remember going to see my dentist and talk to him, and he was actually a dual qualified medick and dentist. And at the time, I kind of was choosing between studying medicine or studying dentistry. So I spoke to my dentist on being duly qualified. He had done medicine after his dental degree, but I think then chose or decided that the hospital lifestyle wasn’t for

[00:03:58] Him and ended up going

[00:03:59] Back to dentistry. And that stuck with me. But also he made a comment which at the time I didn’t really understand and I thought was a slightly sexist comment. And he said that

[00:04:09] Dentistry is a really amazing career from a lifestyle perspective, in particular for a woman, and I have never really felt that up until the last two years, I kind of thought we were really,

[00:04:21] Really hard. It’s quite stressful. It’s quite intense. I didn’t think it was an amazing lifestyle job, but since having had a family myself, my eldest daughter Maggie is now one and a half

[00:04:32] Being able to go back to work part time and that being quite comfortable to do has really made me see the benefits of dentistry from a lifestyle perspective.

[00:04:43] Yeah, definitely. I mean, your life has changed very much, very quickly. You’re not to 60

[00:04:48] Years from now. From everything I do,

[00:04:53] From young, free and single to not young, then you’re so young but not free and two kids. You did that in a real hurry. And so you can see the difference between those two situations. And you know, we talk a lot on this podcast with ladies about is is Dental more difficult for ladies or not? But how do you feel? How do you feel about, you know, the differences between those two situations? Were you always going to have kids and you always knew this was the way

[00:05:21] It was going to be? Yeah, I always

[00:05:23] Wanted to have a family, and I wasn’t sure how that would fit in to my career. I think when I was young, I thought, great. I’ll, you know, have children and I’ll be a housewife for a while and enjoy that. And I think you feel

[00:05:36] And I think still a lot of my friends and siblings who don’t have children like, Oh, you have it so easy, you don’t have to go to work. Oh my god,

[00:05:43] I feel like my children is a much harder job than a day in a Dental clinic. But since having children, I knew that. I mean, I really do love my career, so I don’t I don’t want to be a stay at home parent all the time, but equally, I don’t want somebody else to be bringing up my children. So I think having that balance is really important and I think. Dentistry is is really open to that

[00:06:06] Being a male or a female, because I think we have the scope to work part time. We are lucky that we probably earn enough to allow us to work part time. And a lot of my peers who have children have ended up not going back to work because the cost of childcare is almost the same amount as what they would earn.

[00:06:23] So there’s no point in them working to spend all their money on childcare. So I think for

[00:06:28] Dentistry, we can get away with working part time, being able to have that balance

[00:06:32] Of spending time

[00:06:32] With your children and, you know, building your career

[00:06:36] Slate in-house dentistry changed for you since having kids in terms of what you do in terms of treatments, are you more selective with who you treat or what you treat and how is your work-life balance? Sort of. If you were to give us a day in the life or a week and the life of Slaney now, how is it compared to what it was like back in the day?

[00:06:59] I think the balance has changed drastically. Not necessarily since I’ve had children, but since kind of promoting myself via social media. Before I started doing any online marketing, I kind of found myself just treating whatever came in through the door and almost like competing with your colleagues for like the nice cases and the cosmetic cases since marketing myself and having patients come directly to me. They do come looking for the treatments that I marketing, which is generally composite bonding veneers, whitening or Invisalign. And really, that’s the only treatment that I do. I think because I worked much longer hours and more days prior to having my children. I was maybe taking in other stuff as well if it was there. But since having children, I mean, I collect my daughter from nursery when I work, so I finish work. I need to be gone by five o’clock and I drop it at nursery in the morning, so I’m not starting earlier than 8:30 or 9:00. But I also want to make my day worthwhile, so I need to fill it with, I guess, cases that are paying well, but cases that are not too stressful. And I’m quite I’m quite strict on my timings. If I have a patient that’s running late, I’m not going to see them because I’m then going to run late. So it has. It’s made me, I guess it’s made me, what’s the word I’m looking for? I just I don’t know how to describe what I’m trying to say I am. I take no prisoners. I get on really, really well with my patients, and I think most of my patients understand that. But I’m not willing to sit around

[00:08:35] And wait for people, and I’m not going to see time

[00:08:37] Wasters. And my time is precious to me and my time with my children is

[00:08:42] More precious than with my patients.

[00:08:44] You’ve recently moved up to Edinburgh Slaney and you know, it’s a massive difference being an associate and being a practise owner. And I guess it’s a squat practise, right? You didn’t buy a practise or do you

[00:08:55] Have more practise? No, it is. It’s not up and running yet.

[00:08:59] So you’re you’re treating patients up there.

[00:09:03] Are you? You are. I’m not. Oh, no, no. Ok. My daughter is only two months old, so I’m I’m on maternity leave. I am planning on treating patients up here in Edinburgh and in Dublin. Dublin will probably happen sooner than Edinburgh because of the build and all of the work behind setting up the practise. Whereas in Dublin I am working as an associate and I’m just travelling over once a month. I’m not due to start in January.

[00:09:28] So you’ve not done that yet either?

[00:09:30] Haven’t. No, that was actually due to start November 2019. No. Sorry, that’s not right. No. Jan Quinn. Since September 2020, 20 years ago, it was due to start in

[00:09:47] November 2020, and then because of COVID, there was all the restrictions on flights and everything. So then it was January 2021 and then I still couldn’t travel at the time. Then it kind of got closer and closer to me having my second baby and I thought, Well, it’s actually too close now. So I kind of put a hold on it with a view to pick it back

[00:10:06] Up when I kind of thought my daughter would be old enough to be left for, you know, a day or a couple of days, as the case may be. So it’s going to be January 2022. We are finally getting started in Dublin.

[00:10:18] Slaney, take me back to you arriving in Dublin as a Dental student. Yeah, as a I guess, a small town girl, Galway girl,

[00:10:29] I would never consider myself Galway, the city, albeit a very small one.

[00:10:35] I mean, I see Dublin is a small town, but but but you how were you when you came to Dublin? Was it like bright lights, big city. Have fun university or that? Or were you one of these like bookworms?

[00:10:50] No, absolutely not. I scraped by. I failed my my best friend Ruth, and I failed our first

[00:10:58] Year exam in Dental Anatomy. And honestly, the exam was a photograph of a tooth and you had to name the tooth. And we both got it wrong, and we had to come home from our holidays in August to reset the exam to rename the tooth. So no, I was I was not the studious type. I was in Dublin to party and I was actually having that conversation with my mum last night. We were laughing, but nightclubs are just about to start opening back up in Ireland and saying, who even goes to nightclubs with the exception of students. And we had a nightclub seven nights a week. There was a night Toby would have gone to on each night and we probably went to five or six of them a week well, and we would stumble into the clinic the next morning. So no, I definitely wasn’t the studious type. I feel like I really, really enjoyed my time at university and I would highly, highly recommend that to any students out there and people who I mean, I get lots of questions and Instagrams and Dental students like, you know, about what they should be studying and what they should be doing afterwards and what speciality they should be thinking about. Just enjoy your time as the student because it goes so quickly as much as you can party. As hard as you can worry about. The rest of their

[00:12:09] Five students these days are very, very focussed, aren’t they? Yeah, it’s surprising the ones who ask me questions, my goodness me afterwards surprise on the level of focus in the third year. Dental student, you know.

[00:12:22] Yeah, I mean, you still hear stuff that I don’t think I know now coming out of students minds and you’re like, What are you learning about and why? Because, you know, you stress about it so much when you’re a student about, you know, who gets a first class on her and who gets a second class on her and who passes. And like, once you walk out the door, you never, ever, ever get that. Ask that question again in your life. Do you have a degree and are you registered with the Dental Council?

[00:12:46] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, enjoy it.

[00:12:50] I think

[00:12:51] So. What about your first shop, what was the first thing you did after

[00:12:56] I came to sew? I actually really wanted to stay in Ireland, I wanted to stay in Dublin and I wanted to go straight to private

[00:13:03] Practise, which was quite hard. They used to have foundation training in Ireland, but they took it away due to lack of funding a couple of years before I graduated. So the only option if you wanted to stay in Ireland was to go to private practise. There is no health service dentistry in Ireland,

[00:13:20] So that’s what I wanted to do. But it’s quite hard to get a job when you zero experience. I wasn’t quite sure how to go about it. And obviously you couldn’t apply for those positions until you’d actually qualified and got your degree. So when all of the foundation year one, training, interviews and everything were going on, I think we were about halfway through our final year, so I thought I’ll go over. It was in Bristol. Most of my class were going and I said I’d go just for the experience and, you know, try it out. So I ended up getting all through the Clinton Clinic in central London, and I didn’t think I was going to get offered one in London. I didn’t think the interview went particularly well, and I was like, Well, I would never consider going anywhere else other than London other than staying in Dublin. So when I got offered London, I thought, that’s probably going to be quite fun. Probably enjoy it. I’ll give it a go. So I was in a practise in central London, just off Great Portland Street. And I mean, I had an amazing time. It was so much fun. We really enjoyed ourselves, but I really didn’t like the dentistry. I actually have utmost respect for NHS dentists who do work to the best of their ability because it’s so hard to do that and you’re just not you’re not paid properly to do that. So I really didn’t like having spent five years in university being taught to do things to the gold standard and then ending up in a clinic where you’re given like five minutes to put an amalgam filling in, you know, shove it in and get the patient to buy it together and walk out. So I decided during the year that I didn’t

[00:14:53] Really want to complete the year, and

[00:14:55] I had been offered a position back in Galway, in the hospital on a exact team, which I guess the works slightly differently in Ireland. Or it did at the time because there was no training in the country. So you weren’t taken on as like, you know, an F1 or an F2 or an Saaho or any of that. You kind of just joined the medical team. So I arrived in and my badge was like,

[00:15:18] You know, Dr Slaney McGrath, oral and maxillofacial registrar, and I was one year out of uni and knew nothing about like five. But you know, you got paid as your title and I had a great time and I really, really loved it. So I thought after that year, this is actually what I want to do. I thought, I’ll go back and I’ll train, I’ll do medicine and I’ll get into my parts. And my sister is a doctor. And at the time she was on like, I think she was in her maybe foundation year two or something and

[00:15:51] Was doing a lot of night shifts and

[00:15:53] Was finding it really difficult. And she was like, You are mentor, like, don’t

[00:15:56] Go back and do this. It’s not a life. So between that and a flight over to London to meet one of my best friends on that year where I was flying over Hyde Park and I love Christmas more than more than what to call them an elf, Will Ferrell. We were

[00:16:15] Flying over winter

[00:16:17] Wonderland and I looked out of the plane and I saw all the lights and everything, and I was like, You know what? I just love London. I just want to live here again. So I thought, actually, I’m not going to go back and study medicine. I’m going to move back to London, but I’m going to get the job that I want. And I’m not going back to NHS and I didn’t have the option because I never completed my foundation year.

[00:16:37] I actually couldn’t get anywhere. So that’s how I ended up back there

[00:16:42] Was that was that the job with Mark and everyone on Harley Street?

[00:16:46] That was the one. Yeah, I am. I knew I would struggle to get into this job again with very little experience and especially in London. But I wasn’t in a rush to leave my job and Galway, so I was kind of happy to work there until

[00:17:01] I had the job I wanted. So I sent LinkedIn, which I’d never been on before, and I looked up a lot of private dental clinic owners in places that I wanted to work. I started messaging them and some of them got back to me. Some didn’t. Some were really helpful. Some weren’t. Mark was was really, really helpful, and I sent him my CV and he was asking, You know, do you have a portfolio? Do you have any qualifications other than your Dental degree? And it was like, No, I’ve actually got nothing and no experience. So he said, you know, no chance you can come and work in my clinic. But here is a list of things that you need to do over the next few years and tick these boxes and then come back to me. So I knew what I wanted to do. So within about six months, I think I’d done about 80 percent of the courses that he recommended and signed up to them.

[00:17:46] What was on that list to go through is what was on that list.

[00:17:50] Chris Orr’s yearlong course, the advanced Dental seminars, one in one, some fixed orthodontic training. What else was on there? There was certainly composite courses on there.

[00:18:04] He said he’s a pankey guy himself, did he?

[00:18:06] Did he ask you

[00:18:08] To do that

[00:18:09] Yet? No, he didn’t ask. Well, maybe he sent me some information about it. He didn’t ask me to do it initially before I started, but I certainly had done some stuff with them after I did start with him. Uh huh.. But yeah, so he sent me this big list and I worked my way through it. I got back to him a few months later and said, You know, I’ve done this and I’ve done this.

[00:18:26] And he said, OK, come over and meet me. So I flew over to London and met him, and he just kind of said, I like your attitude and I like that. You’ve, you know, put your heart into it and come aboard. So I started with him, and it really was an amazing, amazing experience. I learnt an awful lot from him and a lot of the other dentists that were there. It started off as a kind of training post. I was seeing general patients, but I was spending lots of time with the other dentists watching them do cosmetic works and what to then do implant work and that type of thing. And I used to go in on a Saturday and just pretty much do the oral surgery there because that was what my experience kind of was. So I did a lot of wisdom teeth and that type of stuff. So yeah, that was that was where it started. And I

[00:19:10] Don’t have imposter syndrome a little bit like working on in one of the highest profile practises in Harley Street two years out of

[00:19:18] If I think if it happened to me now, I would, but at the time didn’t even cross my mind like 24 on live in the time of my life, I was loving it like dress, not going to work and my dress and my heels pretending I was someone I wasn’t. And I loved it. I thought it was amazing, and I learnt a huge amount there and very, very grateful to mark for all of the team, for taking me in there. And it was it was a really great experience.

[00:19:47] And so Slaney, is that when you started your marketing and sort of generating your own patients or was that

[00:19:54] Know that was a little bit later? Yes, I started there in 2015. It was around 20 eighteen. Maybe that that I was working at. It was called an entry at the time. It’s now Ru Dental and I worked the whole time I was at Harley Street. I did three days there and then one or two days at the neem tree. Since Roots and the nurse who was working with me in room was Andy McLean’s nurse from Manchester, who moved down to London and she got a job at the neem tree. And she was working with me and she had pretty much started and these Instagram for him, and he was someone who was saying, You know, what is this Instagram thing? And she was pushing saying, You know, you’ve got to do this. It’s an amazing way of marketing. And his career just took off, and rightly so, because he’s an incredible dentist and he’s a lot of work to show for himself. But I think she helped grow that for him and with him. So she started saying it to me, You know, you’ve got to you’ve got to start Instagram. And I was I was just quite nervous about putting my work out there. At the time, I was very much doing general dentistry. I’d maybe done one or two cosmetic cases and looking back, you know, they’re not great. So I was quite nervous about the criticism, maybe, that I would get from posting pictures of teeth online and also the fact that a lot of my followers, the majority of my followers, were just my friends and they’d be like, What are you doing? Posting pictures of teeth?

[00:21:20] So she I caved eventually, and Kerry kind of helped me and we started building it and just it was just really, really quick the way it grew. I think at the time, there wasn’t a huge amount of people doing it. Now I think that space itself is is quite competitive because there’s an awful lot of people doing it. But at the time, there wasn’t so, so it was quite easy to build. And then the more you post, the more patients you get.

[00:21:46] So therefore the bigger the portfolio you can build, which is that was my struggle at the beginning was that I don’t really have enough cases to post. So I was like reposting the same stuff over and over and over. But yeah, the more you post, the more you get people coming in and then the more pictures you have to post. So it’s I

[00:22:02] Mean, we’ve got a credit Kerry publicly here because, yeah, as you say, she did. She did Andy. She did, she did yours. And then she did ours. She did enlightens Instagram at the beginning of when we were nowhere and it worked for us too. But what advice do you give because, you know, enlightens Instagram doesn’t have me all over it or my work all over it? Yeah, but we have these mini small makeover events, and we talk to the dentist there and say, Who’s got an Instagram for dentist account? Very few do. Still, yeah. What’s your advice to someone who’s worried about starting and what are the, you know, the things that I think people worry about is what’s number one my aren’t going to think and to no to the other other dentists going to think. That how did you get over that?

[00:22:52] I think the people close to you or the people who are going to support you? And you always have to remember that that you know you are. You have family in your friends who are going to support you in it. I think the harshest criticism come from other dentists. And I think you just as long as I think you’re confident in what you have posting that you feel like you have done your best for that patient. And it’s very hard for somebody to criticise it. I mean, they can say, OK, that line angle is not perfect. But so what? Because it’s a learning curve for all of us. But I think as long as you know that you’re not posting a case where you know, it was a young and 18 year old who needed ortho and you put in 20 porcelain veneers, you know you’re posting your best work and you think you did right by that patient, then what? What’s the concern? Somebody can criticise that. It’s not perfect, but you know, nobody’s perfect, you know?

[00:23:43] And I remember I remember when you when you when you spoke for us at the minimalist, I remember you. You addressed this point by showing photos of you showed other dentists work and you said, Look, I was seeing Dr. Duval’s work and Dr. APA’s work and thinking, I’m not anywhere near as good as then. But then you showed these other cases that were getting loads of love, and we could all tell they weren’t the best cases. And in a way, maybe that was the thing that you thought, Well, I can do this to you if these people are getting low, hopefully.

[00:24:14] Totally. And yeah, and those are the cases where

[00:24:17] The horribly

[00:24:19] Inflamed introvert calculus everywhere. And you know, they’ve they’ve extracted teeth to put veneers on rather than orthodontics. And yeah, and people are still like, this looks great.

[00:24:28] And we’re like, Well, whose eyes?

[00:24:31] So yeah, I mean, my advice is just start because I felt that exact same way when I was starting, I thought, I’m going to get so much criticism. But as long as you’re you’re posting your best work, you’ll be surprised at how little criticism you do get. And when you do get

[00:24:44] It, I guess it’s either totally ignoring it and not letting it affect you, or it’s managing it correctly and not starting an argument with somebody or, you know, just justify your point.

[00:24:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:55] You know, people are going to be out there to, you know, to troll you and to criticise you because they always are.

[00:25:01] So have you been trolled like in a way that that’s really affected? You ruined your ruined your day?

[00:25:08] Oh, once once.

[00:25:09] It was not, necessarily. Well, no, it was actually. It was. I was. I was talking a lot and I had been have

[00:25:15] Been recently about Dental tourism because I think it’s a really important subject that needs to be addressed to the general population in the UK

[00:25:23] And Ireland. And I was posting

[00:25:26] Some pictures and talking about them. That’s not in particular, but clinics abroad that were doing

[00:25:32] 20 zirconium crimes for everybody. And I had sent and a couple of my colleagues had done the same, sent in photos of our own teeth to them to say, What do you think I need? And I, you know, I have a couple of crowns and veneers on my

[00:25:44] Front teeth and root canals, and I know that I have work and I need some

[00:25:48] Work. But I send a photo of my teeth and I needed 20 zirconium crowns and I was like, No, I can

[00:25:53] Safely say, I need. Maybe I need three, but I don’t need 20 and there’s nothing wrong with my bottom teeth. So I was posting a lot about this, and a patient got back in touch with me, who was a girl from Ireland who had been to a clinic in Turkey and had her teeth done. And she basically was like, You’re only saying this because you don’t have the skill to get a result like this. I mean, they’re horrifying to me. I was like, I don’t even want a result like that. So it went back and forth, and I don’t even know why I was responding to her. But it just got inside my head and I spent most of the day like sending awful emails and texts back to her. And you’re like, I know I need to stay professional, but it really, really hard right now. And then I got home and I was like, I don’t even know why I responded in the first place. But aside from that, I mean, there’s the odd comment you get, but I do. I just ignore it because I think you start commenting and you start responding and you’re down a rabbit hole and it does. It starts to really annoy you for no reason and it will ruin your day. And so I just ignore it. But I am lucky that I don’t get a huge amount of it.

[00:26:56] So you get sucked into the the comments and things like that. So for example, does that take up much of your time? I know a lot of people have been on here and myself included right, that sometimes when you’re active on social and I go through bouts of being totally silent to being super, super active that you get a lot of questions, comments this, that and the other. And they can take over your whole day and be incredibly distracting. And especially when you’ve got kids, it’s even more distracting. You start feeling guilty, right? Do you have a way of switching off or does it impacts you where you’re always looking at your phone?

[00:27:34] It did when I initially started, I honestly think I spent most of my life on my phone responding to text, responding to

[00:27:41] Emails, I have gone the complete opposite way now, maybe to the detriment

[00:27:46] Of my social media that I mean it could take me a month to respond to a DM. But, you know, I think people understand that for me, it’s that I’m busy and I’ve got a new baby and I don’t have time to be sitting there responding to it constantly. And it’s also quite hard for me at the moment because I’m not actually doing any clinical work. So people are asking, when can I get an appointment? And like, Well, I don’t actually know right now. So if I think if I had a more definite answer for them, I’d be more inclined to be more active on it. But I do try to. Certainly, when I was before I left London, when I was working there, my train journey in the morning

[00:28:19] And the evening was my time to be on social media so that when I get home, I don’t have to do it because I find it too. It’s unfair. You come home to see your children and to be with your family, and then you end up sitting there on your phone and not, you know, you don’t even hear what’s going on in the background when you’re so sucked into the screen. So, yeah, I I’m not going to go back to that stage. I was at the beginning at any stage. And I think also when we have our own clinic that’s up and running, there will be somebody doing that for us and it won’t be me doing it myself. That being said, it’s quite nice to have a personal touch to it, though, and I do like that when patients contact me that I’ll send them a voice note back rather than kind of generic message. So I think sometimes we’ll have somebody responding as a kind of generic response, I think to everybody. But there does need to be a personal side to it, I think as well.

[00:29:06] Are there any tips or hints when you communicate and with patients lately, like you’ve just mentioned there, you’d send a voicemail back to a patient row, which a your voice is faster than your fingers, so it saves you a bit of time, but b, it’s a bit more personalised as well. Is there any sort of anything that you can share in terms of how you engage with your followers and to the point where obviously they see your work and the a lot of them probably decide, you know, they believe in the brand of you and your personal brand, and that’s why they’ve they’ve contacted you. But in terms of just engaging with them and I guess triggering a conversation and engagement, what would you advise?

[00:29:46] I think that really would depend on the type of social media page that you have for me on my. It’s predominantly based around work and the whole purpose behind it is just to bring patients into the chair. I have no interest in being an influencer. I have no interest in pictures of me or my family or anything else on there. But I am very aware that patients buy into you as a person, not just of tea.

[00:30:14] Now that obviously works differently for everybody because take Andy, for example, with Instagram, I don’t think of a single photo of him on it

[00:30:21] Or if it’s not, if it is, it’s him in the corner of the clinic somewhere. It’s very much just about teeth and before and after pictures are so amazing that that’s great and it works that way for him. For me, I think I have a slightly more personal page, so I do post pictures of my family and, you know, just because people engage with that and I think people almost bond with you over that. So for me, I think having that personal touch is quite important. If a patient contacts me, they usually aren’t just saying, Hi, I’d like to book in a few questions and and I think they just they’re buying into you as a person and not just your dentistry. So I respond to them. Sometimes it will be a typed message if you know, if it’s just a quick response, but it will always be from me and quite personal. If it’s a kind of longer, a more complex question, then I’ll send it as a video. Or, excuse me, as a voice note, I know Afan sends to a lot of what’s really still doing this. But when he was certainly starting his, he was sending all of his patients a video response because they just they know that you’ve taken the time to send that to them and you look slightly different if it’s not just that’s coming from their receptionist or that’s coming from their treatment coordinator.

[00:31:32] They know it is actually your advice and it’s come from you. I also I do also find that when if something has been like patients, you will say something to them on Instagram, like, you know, the consultation fee and when they can come in and then they’ll call or email reception to make an appointment. And sometimes it seems that it’s free and then it goes back and forth and back and forth and like, No, I would never say that it’s free. But I think that for people who think that that maybe they’re just talking to a receptionist or talking to somebody and they’re trying to get something out of you, almost. So I think having that voice note or a video or something like that where you say, you know, this is my consultation fee, this is what I’m available to see. This is what we’re going to do for you on the first visit. Then they know exactly what’s happening before they walk in the door. And there’s never any drama in the clinic.

[00:32:22] Solanki you’ve worked in some of the high profile clinics, clinics that have very strong social presences themselves. What have you learnt? You know you’re about to become principal. Say, I mean, you know, you’re going to have people working for you soon and all that. What have you learnt from the different clinics? Because we’ve had both Xaba and Mark Hughes and Adam Thorn on on this show? And I mean, all of them are extraordinary people. Do you think, you know, as well as you know, for actually for any of our listeners who who want the masterclass on what did what happened to Slaney? If you send me a DM, I’ll send you her her lecture from the minimalist. But what my point is on top of what you do? Or did the clinics do to help?

[00:33:09] I think the staff are the most important part, and that’s something that I’ve certainly taken away from me. From being through that I would like to replicate in my own clinic that the staff there build your clinic. I mean, the treatment coordinators in particular, having good treatment coordinators, having reliable nurses, having that friendly vibe in the clinic that your reception team are there to chat to your patients and make them feel welcome. It was that feeling of, I mean, it’s very difficult to to

[00:33:40] Not to criticise either clinic, actually,

[00:33:41] But they’re just both very, very different that the Harley Street clinic has the Harley Street vibe. You go in and everybody’s very well dressed and the classical music at reception and the patients sit silently in the waiting room. Whereas Rue, or like a more kind of social media friendly clinic, is more about young patients and it’s people coming in and it’s so friendly.

[00:34:00] The reception is so, you know, chatting away to the patients about just day to day life. And patients always say, like, I don’t

[00:34:06] Feel like I’m coming to the dentist. I just feel like I’m popping over to my friend’s house or I’m going to a spa or something like that. And that, I think, is really important. I really think that’s going to start. I mean, really, our job is just to do the dentistry, like everything else, can kind of be done by a good team and having a treatment coordinator who understands the treatment, but is also really, really good and caring for patients. Having nursing staff that know that they’re valued, that is a massive thing. I think in London in particular, the turnover of nursing staff and we’re just in and out, in and out because I think they often don’t feel valued, they feel overworked and underpaid. So I really want to find a good team and I want to treat them really, really well so that they stay with me. And I think that’s the primary thing that I’ve learnt from working in quite a few clinics over the years.

[00:34:53] And Slaney, your your clinic, you mentioned like you’ve got a the equivalent of the Harley Street classical music and all the rest of it. And then you’ve got the the Rue Dental social media ask, what if you were to sort of paint a picture of your vision for the practise? What would that be?

[00:35:11] My vision is aesthetically Harley Street, but emotionally rue Dental.

[00:35:20] And I think you can get the best of both worlds in Edinburgh because the buildings are just amazing. You try to go over the buildings, but

[00:35:28] Having that friendly, relaxed vibe once you walk inside the door.

[00:35:33] And in terms of the team, the set up of the team, obviously there’s going to be yourself at the forefront. Have you have you sort of got a team together who are going to support you in addition to?

[00:35:43] No, not yet, because I haven’t we haven’t got a fixed date to open, so I don’t want to start, you know, approaching that too early. I had about three or four people in mind who I was really, really hoping I could get involved. And over the last couple of months, I’ve been in touch with a few of them and I’ve just opened my own clinic. I’m like, Oh no.

[00:36:01] So there are there are people I have in mind and people who I would really, really love to come and

[00:36:07] Work with, but who knows they may or may not be available.

[00:36:12] I also think there’s a balance between having the people who have established themselves already and can help you grow it from where they are and having young, really enthusiastic dentists who can grow with you. And I think I’d like a combination of both.

[00:36:29] And have you got anxiety? Have you got anxiety about filling this clinic with patients?

[00:36:34] No. Maybe I should have. I, you know, I’m nervous about having my own. I say my own business, our own business. I Stuart, who is I call on my husband. We’re actually getting married on New Year’s Eve. So he was almost my husband.

[00:36:49] He’s an accountant by trade, but

[00:36:50] He’s going to be doing all the kind of running and the management and all that type of thing in the clinic. So we’re doing it together

[00:36:55] And the business side, and those worries are predominantly his and I’ll take concerns. But yeah, I mean, I’m nervous about putting everything we have into this. But at the same time, I’m quite confident that if we can provide a service that is actually not a huge amount of people doing in Scotland at the moment that that it will work.

[00:37:18] So I mean, you’re going to have to on day one or do you have a bunch of people already waiting? Is you?

[00:37:24] Yeah.

[00:37:25] Oh, I see. You know, that kind of helps. Would you say anxiety? A bit, I guess.

[00:37:36] Is there any ill knowns that you’re that you have anxiety about or anything like, I guess you’ve been in and out of, you know, Dental practises to see what’s going on right? But I guess when running a bit

[00:37:48] Different, being an associate, totally different being an associate than a principal.

[00:37:52] Yeah, yeah. And I think from a set up perspective, I mean, I’m lucky that I have been involved in the opening of a clinic before and from a secrecy perspective and all of that I’ve been involved

[00:38:01] In in interviews. And so I’m I mean, I know that’s a lot of work, but I’m, you know, I’m not otherwise working at the moment. So but my point,

[00:38:10] My point isn’t that my point is, you know, when you and Kerry working at Roux? Yeah, when you’re not the boss, there’s a different relationship with the staff and when you are the boss, right?

[00:38:22] Yeah, of course.

[00:38:23] And how that’s going to translate, what kind of boss are you going to be? What kind of boss do you think going to be?

[00:38:28] I think there’s a line between being too close friends with your colleagues because then it sorry, not with your colleagues, with your employees, because it

[00:38:35] Then becomes very, very difficult if somebody is not kind of working at the standard that you’d like them to be. So I want to be

[00:38:42] Very, very fair. I want to get on

[00:38:45] Very well with my employees, but I’m also not going to be going out with them on a Saturday night and partying every week or with anybody else for that matter. And I’ve got two children and I got, if I could, I might have that.

[00:39:00] We’re coming to Edinburgh in a couple of weeks on May four, and

[00:39:04] I have the babies that are in that. Neither party is

[00:39:08] Going to say Thursday the 11th. I hope you’ve got your baby sister sorted.

[00:39:12] I know I did actually have to message Susie because I have a babysitter for the Friday of I’m coming to see off the money talking on Friday, but I just don’t know if my

[00:39:22] Youngest will be able to stay on her own because she’s not great

[00:39:25] At reading the bottle. So I had to mess with Susie and was like, Can I take her? She was like, Actually, don’t care what anyone else says.

[00:39:31] I like babies become friends with the baby, but not on the Thursday night,

[00:39:37] The first day, Thursday, the 11th for any listeners as well. We’re having a big, enlightened party in Lulu in Edinburgh. So do do join us. How do you find Edinburgh as a town to live in? I mean, outside of OK, look, it’s so stunning. Every time I go there, it’s really surprises me. How beautiful it it. Yeah, but the people and how do you think the patients are going to translate or you don’t know?

[00:40:00] I mean, I can’t say for sure, but I have a relatively large network of people similar age to me here. And I guess the type of patients I was treating in London were young females. And what I was really trying to target were people at my age that young mums, because you’ve got something in common with them. So I have a relatively large network of those people here,

[00:40:25] And I feel like they will translate very similarly to the way my patients were in London.

[00:40:30] I don’t I don’t foresee a massive difference there. It’s obviously a much smaller place. A word of mouth is, I think, much bigger here. I actually saw I got my nails done last week by a lady that I was recommended to on Instagram, and she has a huge Instagram following. He had nothing to do with nails. She just was on maternity leave about two or three years ago and started, so I’ll just have some extra income and started getting some people over to her house to do their nails. And it’s such a good job that they recommended more and more people. And now she’s booked up for about four months in advance, and it’s all just through social media. But it’s happened really, really quickly for her because it’s just such a small place that everybody knows everybody. So word of mouth spreads really quickly. So I’m really hoping that that’s going to be the case for us, and I think that’s just down to people feeling really welcome and cared for. Obviously, I want the treatment to be the best treatment possible, be it done by me or one of the associates that are hopefully going to be working there. But I. I think as long as they feel really cared for and the relationship between the clinic and all of the staff on the patients are good, then I think a hope word of mouth will spread.

[00:41:40] Let’s get some darkness, so we’ve been very light up today. What’s been your darkest day? Workwise.

[00:41:53] So I

[00:41:54] I I was sued

[00:41:56] By a patient a year after I qualified. That’s not true. Actually, I was in private practise, so it was my first year in private

[00:42:03] Practise and I just come out of my next

[00:42:06] Year. So I was quite confident and I think competent in taking out impacted wisdom. And I was seeing a patient who was a gentleman who was about 30. I used to come to this appointment with his mom, which was slightly unusual because he was a 30 year old man.

[00:42:21] But I was extracting his lower right wisdom

[00:42:24] Tooth and the little drill bit in

[00:42:29] The Burr like the, you know, on the straight hand, this is like a little latch to clip in the bird. The latch was slightly wobbly, but I didn’t think very much of it.

[00:42:37] The birthing season and it was quite so patient was numb. I had a big retractor in his lip and I was tossing away bone and put away the bone. That was fine. Tooth came out, the assistant was holding, the lip retracted. The whole time tooth came out, stitched him all up, ready to go, took out the lip protractor and I caused this big burn, decided his lip where the bird wasn’t fully engaged in the hunting. So it was like slipping up and down. It was a huge friction burn. So it had to be on the side of his lip. And oh my god, I got the absolute fright of my life. So I just I stitched it back up and in a complete, complete panic to explain to the patient what had happened. And he was just, I mean, it wasn’t the easiest extraction in the world anyway. So I think he was just a bit like, I’m ready to just go home. So he left and I had a minor panic attack, major panic attack, maybe, you know, called Dental protection and everything else and thought, this is the end of my career. Oh my God. And you went away and I called him that evening and I called him the next day and he’d been fine. And then a couple of days later, I got

[00:43:39] Contacted by

[00:43:41] Cameron was on the phone. It was an email that by his mother and she was like, Oh, we’re just a bit worried about it. It’s a bit we maybe need to be or what are you learning to do about it? So I phoned back Dental protection and they said, offer them a referral to fax. But if you suit up the wound, what’s going to happen? You know, nothing else is going to happen. So luckily, I had quite a good relationship with Nick Cavazos, who’s a macrobiotics consultant in Harley Street and in Kings, and I sent some pictures to him and I contacted him and he said, Look, we’ve done everything we can do is going to heal, but it comes into us. We’re just going to tell him the same thing. So it kind of relayed that back to him and he was okay. He was fine. I reviewed him weekly and it had healed. And on the external surface, you couldn’t really see anything. You also always had a beard. It was like a tiny, tiny little line. And then on the internal surface, it was kind of a scar that went down, but it was on the inside. So you just disappeared for like two years. And I was like, Oh, he’s obviously fine. And then he came back out of nowhere, and it probably wasn’t two years. It was maybe six months. He came back on, originally rumoured to take out that wisdom teeth and then do some Invisalign and replace the front teeth in the new year. So we came back to music. I want the Invisalign, so we got started with the design and everything was fine. And then, like a couple of months into Invisalign, Monk came back in and she’s like, We want compensation for the issue with the lip. It was all just a bit awkward at the time because I was like, well, you know, it was quite a while ago, you come back to me for treatment. I’m now in the middle of a treatment plan with you, but what you want.

[00:45:13] So we’ve had a discussion about

[00:45:15] Reduction of the veneer or whatever it was for it, and they kind of went away to think about it. And we continued on with the Invisalign while this was going on and the correspondence was quite slow. And then eventually I got a letter from a lawyer that arrived to the clinic looking for all of the notes. I don’t I don’t think they fully understood that they were suing me personally and not the clinic because he was still coming to all his appointments. So then I had to sit down with them and say, Look, there’s a real conflict of interest here. You’re suing me for negligence, yet you’re attending all of your appointments with me and you want me to keep treating you. So in the end, I basically ended up referring him to a colleague because I was like, I can’t keep treating you. And it progressed with Dental protection. It went on for so long, and in the end, I think it got settled for £500. And think of all of that, I would have just given him £500 to save me the heartache at the beginning. And so I think that day when that happened was my darkest day in the clinic so far. I was so, so scared. What we got through it, and he’s still alive, and you can’t see the sign is lit from the outside.

[00:46:22] Would you say that’s also your biggest clinical error? Yes, I would.

[00:46:27] And well, yes, I would say there’s other you make other errors, don’t you, but that’s the only one.

[00:46:33] So what can we learn? What can we learn from that? You know, check your drill before you.

[00:46:37] Yes, absolutely.

[00:46:40] And I think jack the drill. And also,

[00:46:44] I mean, I think I did. I feel like I did from a communication perspective, handled as best I could because I was in constant contact with him. But then when he just kind of disappeared for six months, I had just assumed it had all healed. It was fine. I think the last time I’d seen him, it had pretty much healed and it was fine. And then we started proceeding with more treatment and then it came back to it afterwards. So that was all just kind of quite confusing. But yeah, I mean, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a red flag. I really apologise if anyone brings their mother with them to their appointments, but to somebody who’s over 30 and brings them over with them to appointments like maybe should have.

[00:47:25] I mean, when you’ve done something different, it sounds like it’s one of those ones where it’s just one of those, you know, freak situations, I can’t say

[00:47:32] I couldn’t have done anything differently. I mean, I could have checked the drill piece, but yet I mean, I am to blame and there’s nothing you can do about that, really. I did cut his lip and heals.

[00:47:47] I mean, I’m happy with that, although I kind of want your second biggest mistake now

[00:47:51] You ever pulled the wrong tooth out slowly.

[00:47:54] Haven’t, thankfully,

[00:47:58] Prav lives on. Then the reason why

[00:48:01] I love it. I have once I

[00:48:04] Have drilled, not taken out the wrong tooth, but I was

[00:48:07] Taking off an old veneer

[00:48:10] That had caries under it and a patient had six veneers and I was just replacing one and I started drilling

[00:48:16] Into the one on the wrong side. Oh yeah. And then I realised and I filled it with composite. And the other half

[00:48:26] You told the patient, No, you didn’t tell the patient how honest you did make that. How honest if you.

[00:48:34] I love that I have to be edited out.

[00:48:41] I love that you admitted that. Well, let’s go. Well, we’ll discuss this later on with you.

[00:48:47] Do you prepare?

[00:48:48] The veneer is we’re kind of coming to the end of their lifespan, so they were all going to need to be replaced, but it didn’t have caries under it. It wasn’t urgent.

[00:48:57] You would just you just doing half the job in advance. Were you to save yourself a bit of time later on?

[00:49:03] What about Slaney? Give us give us a top tip. Yeah, top clinical tip. You do so many align bleach bond cases. Yep. But you know there must be some, some little hack, something something that you know, something Slaney is going to add to this to this debate. Something something that would help someone who wants to get into that world or someone who is already in that world.

[00:49:26] These really hard questions off the cuff.

[00:49:27] You should have prepared me for this because I feel like anything I say is going to be the same as everyone else does.

[00:49:33] No, that’s not the case. That is not the case. No, no, no. It’s weird when I hear that from people, everyone does things differently.

[00:49:41] I think one thing for me, newish people into, I think the Invisalign

[00:49:46] System has changed with Invisalign go and the way they move now. But certainly for me, when I started with Invisalign, I found that a huge number of patients and cases at the very, very end were like, Oh, my vote doesn’t feel right, and I would end up in refinement after assignment, after assignment, trying to get these contact points in the right place. And it just still doesn’t feel right. And I think this just hit me when I had Invisalign myself that when I finished, I was like, Oh honey, I literally accrued on one tooth, and that’s it. But after about five weeks, she called together. Everything was perfect, and I have perfect in inverted commas class one occlusion, though, and all my teeth contact. So I think that is a big point that that took me a long time to realise. And I think had I not had it myself, I would still be doing refinement, refinement to try and figure that out. So I always explained that to my patients in the very first visit and also at every visit throughout that. When you finish the treatment, your bite is probably going to feel unusual. It is going to settle. And obviously, there’s case cases where you can see that bite not right, but where it looks right to you. But the patient is telling you it’s not working.

[00:50:57] What about what about with composite composite veneers?

[00:51:00] I think all all of composite is down to two things nine angles and polish. I think if your line angles are wrong, they look really wrong. And if you don’t have any line angle going, you see a lot of on the computer the computer holds up on Instagram. You know that they were certainly not true and not lifelike. And I think the the polish and the texture at the. The other thing for me, when I started doing composite, I spent 12 hours how long polishing with every desk under the sun and every borough you could find, you spent hours and hours at it. Now I applied for my composites with a lot of crystals. And I think that gives you pretty much finish to it anyway. I then use a coarse plastic soft disk to just kind of rush the thing of it. And then when that added in texture and everything, I just use that the A.S.A.P. needle points and polishing takes five minutes now. Quality used to take five minutes more. But I think it really, really gives. I guess it gives us kind of the perfect as the wrong word, but that lifelike end result. And I used to find taking pictures and always put some water on the piece to make them look shiny and looked like they were in real trouble. Whereas now I feel like I want to do the opposite. I want wanted to completely dry everything because the polish is there and the shine is there. So I think from getting your own angles correct, making the teeth really, really shiny are the two things that will set you apart from everybody else.

[00:52:41] Yeah, specifically, that means your line angle on the Centrals, right?

[00:52:45] I know if they’re not symmetrical that you gloss over

[00:52:49] The rest of it. People kind of ignore, but that one you can’t you can’t get that one wrong.

[00:52:53] Yeah, we get around one on a straight one. Oh, and then you actually get messages. Quite a lot of young dentists who are doing it and they’ll send a picture and say, What do you think I can change here? And that’s one of the things I see or comment on a lot is that things actually look really good, but they’re not symmetrical. One straight ones round. And that’s what throwing your eye off. And it’s really hard to think until you have some experience in doing that and knowing why they don’t look right because you put your callipers on you, like, well, they’re the same width. Why do one want to look wider than the other? So I think, yeah, just practises. I guess what gets you there? I put a picture I actually got caught out doing this, but I put a picture of a composite case I did about three or four years ago on Instagram compared to what I did at the moment. And it was a post aimed at young dentists who messaged me asking, You know, what courses should I do? And you know, and I always advise the courses that I think are really good, namely, my makeover and undies and monarchs is great, but you can do as many courses in the world unless you start practising doing it and so on. So I posted my one from four years ago and one from now, and I said, Look, I’ve done one or two courses between here and here, but actually it’s just doing lots of cases and the patient. I didn’t realise he followed me. The patient on the first case messaged me and is like, I’m so disappointed to see you using my case as a bad example of. He got rid of them.

[00:54:21] What’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given?

[00:54:25] I think that’s nothing to do with clinical dentistry, and I think it is all to do with how you handle and manage your patients and how you speak to your patients. Because I think patients leave happy if they were treated well and they may come back to you and say, You know what? This truth isn’t exactly how I want it to be. I want you to change it. But as long as you’re really understanding and you’re empathetic towards them, you they’ll come back as many times they want to get their teeth to that perfect place. Whereas I think if there’s any kind of stand off business or, you know, hostility between you and your patient, they are much more inclined to make a complaint and it to be much more difficult for you than somebody that you got on with. So I think, I think have showing empathy is probably the best bit of advice I would’ve been given.

[00:55:14] Yeah. I mean, you know, since I’ve stopped practising 10 years ago and when I when I when I think back on my Dental career, I even though I used to love that piece, talking to patients and understanding who they are. I still think I could have done more from that perspective, you know? That really is even now, you know, friends and family having operations, the surgeon’s bedside manner is just as important as his reputation and, you know, in what he does. And with us, you know, it’s such a close relationship that that I absolutely agree with that slowly we end these things with Prav final questions. You’re not a fan of this podcast, but if you were, you’d be prepared for Prav final questions.

[00:56:05] I’m going to come out of it. So I’m just not a podcast listener in general.

[00:56:09] So that’s all right. That’s Prav. Go ahead.

[00:56:14] Slaney, imagine it was your last day on the planet and you were surrounded by your little ones, your loved ones who would not be so little anymore and you had to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. Or three pieces of life advice. What would they be?

[00:56:36] I was hoping for a desert island disc. I would have that one down.

[00:56:41] Let’s start with that. Let’s start with that while you think about this. What’s gone? Gone? What’s your foresee? What would be your desert island disc?

[00:56:48] Well, my my happy song is Clean Bandit rather be. Because I was one day in a really good place in my life and I was in Thailand with some pals and I just fed up with somebody I’ve been

[00:57:03] Trying to do for ages. I was really happy and I was walking down the beach and we had a good night the night before and I was a bit hung over and I had my earphones in and it was old school, pre ear plugs, wire hold holding my iPod and that song was on. I was like, God, life is great.

[00:57:19] Amazing.

[00:57:20] Plus my desert island disc. What are my three pieces of wisdom for my children and my loved ones? I think. Being. Confident in who they are, whoever they become. I’m not. I just think insecurity is one of the worst, most debilitating things that you can have. So I mean, I don’t know how you turn that into words of wisdom other than being confident, but that’s what I would wish for them.

[00:57:52] You’re one of the most confident people I know, Slaney. Do you think that was? That’s something that’s inherent in you? Or do you think it’s something your parents did

[00:58:00] To make you something inherent in me? I think when I was a child, I think my eldest daughter is quite like me as a child, but she’s just very outgoing, wants to chat to everybody. There is just no stop. I mean, it’s only one and a half. It doesn’t know, but I hope. I hope she’s always like that. I mean, me versus my sister, when my sister is much more introverted than I am was a much more timid, shy child and I wasn’t so. So I think I think that was just there all along.

[00:58:29] So be confident. Number two.

[00:58:32] Be kind, be kind. Yeah, I just think there are people out there who are just not coming because but I think, yeah, I just think you’re a happier person if you treat people well. I think having I fell out with a Payman, probably both of you probably know the story anyway. But I did pull out with an old clinical manager, I guess, in a clinic that I worked at a while ago and quite drastically fell out with him. And I remember thinking really horrible things about him afterwards, and I was like, I don’t know why I’m thinking this, because he’s obviously just so unhappy. It was actually, you know what I was doing. I was doing a meditation course randomly, and they were getting you to think nice things about people that you like and they think nice thoughts about people that you were indifferent about and then getting you to think nice thoughts about somebody that you really disliked and this person popped into my head. And I’ve always thought horrible thoughts about him, probably from the first day I met him. And then I just was like, I don’t know why I’m thinking, like, he’s a horrible person because you know me thinking horrible thoughts about him is not making him a nicer person. Me thinking my thoughts about him just makes me think that he’s just an unhappy little person. So I think being kind and thinking happy thoughts and not just not not disliking people because we’re all going to dislike people, but but I think limiting it. Yeah, this is a really, really hard question. Probably like I’m coming across like a total idiot. Exactly.

[01:00:10] I mean, exactly you’re talking about as well. We’ll just keep we’ll just leave it at that.

[01:00:19] And the third and even yourself, be kind.

[01:00:25] Party hard line, I think too short

[01:00:33] To take too seriously,

[01:00:35] Brilliant.

[01:00:36] Enjoy it.

[01:00:38] That’s lovely.

[01:00:39] And lady, how would you like to be remembered? Slaney was.

[01:00:46] You’re. You’re doing good, do you?

[01:00:51] How would you spell here, was it, Ari?

[01:00:55] Sorry. How would I like to be remembered? I would like to be remembered as somebody who worked hard but enjoyed themselves. And I think

[01:01:11] For me, certainly over the last couple of years, my outlook on life has changed quite a lot. And I think the family has changed that somebody really, really enjoyed their family and spending time with them. And I do. I mean, I find it really tough sometimes when the children are just screaming. But there are such good times where they just so much fun and so funny that I think I’d like to be remembered as a family person,

[01:01:40] Say on the working hard front. I mean, you flew in to Belfast and out within three hours. Heavily pregnant. I think when you must have been eight and a half months pregnant, when you did,

[01:01:54] That probably was around that. Yeah.

[01:01:57] To help me out for a marketing lecture, one hour lecture. You flew in and out of Belfast. Where? Where do you get your work ethic from? Is it? Do you put that down to your parents or.

[01:02:09] Oh, yes and no, I think I. I get a bit I get a bit addicted to doing things like when they start something and it’s

[01:02:18] Going well and doing it, I find it hard to just switch off and put it away. But then there’s the flip side of that where I’m going to say now or I’m not working well, I say I’m not working. I feel like I’m working really hard, but I’m not doing Dental, and I would find it quite hard to do something like that right now and said, fly over for a day and talk about dentistry. I kind of feel like I’m so switched off at the moment that it would be hard to switch it back on quickly. I need to build into that. And I think the things are going well and you’re enjoying it. I really enjoy it. That’s, I think, a big point of it or a big part of it that but it’s not. I mean, obviously, you wake up in the morning. It always feels like work when you’ve to get up to an alarm in the morning and leave your nice, comfy bed. But once I’m there, I really enjoy it. I enjoy talking to my patients. I enjoy treating my patients. I enjoy the difference it makes on their life. So, yeah, I think enjoying it makes you work hard.

[01:03:12] Very good point, very good point. And Prav, you got one, one final final.

[01:03:19] Yeah, which is.

[01:03:21] I mean, you’re going to enjoy this question slightly if you have 30 days left, but you had your health intact and everyone around you and all the money in the world. How would you spend those 30 days?

[01:03:36] I would get my closest friends and family, I would I was going to say yacht, I get seasick, so yacht maybe not the right idea,

[01:03:45] But I would want to go somewhere like really amazing.

[01:03:48] And no, you’re laughing at me there, Payman. It’s ridiculous, like scuba diving, one of my favourite hobbies that I get really seasick. I would want to go somewhere really, really amazing. I’m not quite sure where yet because I haven’t been to the place, but I find that place needs to have sunshine. It needs to have seaside and needs to have a really, really nice place to stay with a lot of good wine and music. And I would get my closest friends, my family,

[01:04:13] And we would just live there for the full 30 days, just everybody doing what they want to do,

[01:04:20] But preferably together. I don’t think there’s one specific thing I do. I also I’d like to do a

[01:04:24] Skydive and I haven’t, and I would. But if I only had 30 days left, I wouldn’t be that bothered about jumping out of plane on my own. I’d kind of just want to spend time with the people I care about.

[01:04:34] Yeah, you wouldn’t do that. One last composite veneers case

[01:04:41] For a souvenir that I shoved. Put me. Margaret Yeah, that makes sense. But years and years ago,

[01:04:52] It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you say the end. Thank you. I I feel like I feel like we didn’t make the most of you when you were down here in London, you know?

[01:05:01] But that isn’t

[01:05:02] Available out here. I’m very happy. Train or flight

[01:05:06] Is. Isn’t life strange that way? But I’m looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks time in Edinburgh. William, thank you so much for doing this.

[01:05:14] You’re very welcome. Thank you for having me. And it was lovely to chat to you both.

[01:05:18] Thanks, lady.

[01:05:19] Take care.

[01:05:21] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:05:37] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:05:52] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:06:02] And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] The funny thing is I was six foot four, and for the first month they thought I was a teacher once they noticed that I was queuing outside a classroom and handing in my homework. They’d come up and say, Payman, you must be thick to be back in school and getting bullied by four foot. Nothing was crazy. I felt like Mr. Bean doing his exams in a gym hall and tables that were puny. But I just you just you become. I became humble and in what I was doing, I mean, I recycled to a restaurant and I leave a large tip. It is hard work being a waiter and it’s hard work being a lifeguard, just walking around in that heat and humidity for eight hours. It’s dull. So I do respect for other people have to do to make a living.

[00:00:55] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:12] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Jeff Stone to the Dental Leaders podcast. What are you going to hear is an incredibly inspiring story about somebody who’s faced so many adversities, has taken a non-conventional route to dentistry and has gone on to teach, educate a mentor of the people. I’m not going to spoil it because this one is truly one of the most inspirational stories I’ve heard so far. Enjoy. Yes, we usually start these interviews off by just learning a little bit about your backstory where you grew up a little bit of your upbringing, and then how that ended up translating into you moving into the world of dentistry. So, Jeff, do you want to just give us a little bit about your backstory?

[00:01:59] Yes, I am just done, and I was born in Gibraltar and my dad was royal engineers from Disposer and from Manchester. I was posted out to the regiment to Gibraltar, where he met my mum and they got married and relocated back to the UK. My brother was born in Kent. Then we’re on Cyprus, Germany and then my dad decided he’d had enough. The job was too risky with a young family, so he bought himself out the army and moved to Gibraltar. And I grew up there Gibraltar. At the time, the border was closed. So it’s a very small community, three square miles and I did my education there and while I was doing my hires, I did my work experience in the hospital. I was wanting to be an optician, but the optician, the optician at the time had retired, so I got sent to the Dental department and absolutely loved it. And the smells, the acrylic, the interacting with patients and just having that familiarity with people and hands on was was just amazing. I remember one of my neighbours, Rosario, was her name and she was in her 30s and she came in and I said, Well, sorry, your teeth are amazing. And she went, took our dentures and said, Thank you, son, I’m glad you like them. I’d never seen pictures in my life.

[00:03:25] That was a shock to the system, so I did my A-levels in the sciences. But at the time, the government offered no support. My dad was a corporal and a family of six, so the wages were not great, so he couldn’t afford the four thousand six hundred annual university fees. So I decided he wanted me to be an officer in the army, and I’d seen the kitchen table fly too many times in in rage by my dad’s that I just didn’t want that for my life. So I. Went into banking finance, I started as a clerk and worked my way up. I left banking as the assistant vice president of the Bank of an American bank won’t be made redundant. Yeah, we were right into the nineteen ninety to two thousand. We’re right in that intimate bubble where the markets were all thriving. Internet vehicles were coming up left, right and centre. And what was not expected was all markets where markets crashed at the same time and they did Latin America, Russia, Europe will crash at the same time, so the bank made a huge loss and decided to fold. At that time, I decided I wanted to well, it that met Sandra, my wife, who’s from Scotland whilst working at Lloyds Bank, and I decided to relocate to Scotland.

[00:04:49] Where where were you at the time when you were working in the bank in the earlier days? Wherever, wherever you there

[00:04:57] In Gibraltar, a finance centre. So I worked for Lloyds Bank. Could some code switch to queens on bankers? I worked for Springform Bank, which was an American bank and latterly with Morgan Stanley. So I was in Gibraltar in banking for about 16 years and worked my way up the management bank. I mean, did all my banking exams and then relocated to Scotland for two reasons. One, I wanted to play the bagpipes and I used to play the back. That’s a story in itself. But when I was 19, I had a really nasty motorbike accident and I was on life support. Last rites switch off the machine and I survived by my lungs were pretty damaged due to an embolism. And the surgeon was Scottish, and he says, you need to take up a wind instrument. So I said what? And he said the bagpipes and I did those two pipelines in Gibraltar, so my lungs are really good as a result of it. But when when Springfield Bank decided to wind up, I decided to relocate to Scotland. So I joined Morgan Stanley as a senior manager and joined Mel Angove, a pipe band as well. I did it for years with Morgan Stanley, whereby I was a victim of my own success, so I don’t.

[00:06:15] I didn’t have a degree at the time. I had my banking exams and I had graduates with Masters PhDs in economics. The one thing they were lacking was just common sense. I found in a lot of cases, and that’s something I would come in. I dread quite a few books on Six Sigma, which is a system developed by Motorola to look at the workarounds and inefficiencies in systems and roll that out through Morgan Stanley managed to. I mean, the first year we saved about $11 million, just doing away with inefficiencies and slimming down departments, redeploying people. So we moved the operations from Canary Wharf in London, up to Scotland. The problem was the hours and I had a young family and the hours were brutal. Travelling all the time never saw my kids. And I broke my ankle playing basketball, and I had time to reflect what I wanted out of life, and I said to my wife at this pace, I don’t think I’ll see 50. The stress of Monday was four stone heavier. It was having a strain on my marriage and I decided to just call it a day.

[00:07:19] Jeff, can I take you back to those days because I think we can all learn a lot from being in a position of being in the zone where you just don’t see what’s important, right? Whether it’s your career or sport that you’re chasing or whatever that is, you become tunnel vision and you neglect, let’s say, your health, the loved ones around you and so on and so forth. And I’m assuming that the banking, you know, certainly from my friends and colleagues, I was at university where they financially they did really well, right?

[00:07:51] Oh, certainly the bonuses were amazing. I was a director of six emerging market funds and the bonuses while you riding that wave on the market are like six figures. It was amazing, but the hours and the stress takes its toll. But but you do become a victim of your own success, like. And it’s it’s it’s a bit of, I would say, a bit of brainwashing as well the way the management try and drive you to. Always improve on yourself. Always try and seek. The work, the overtime work, the weekends, I mean, I’ve been in a Boxing Day sending trades in the South Korean market, new vehicles. So we were training at my son and with me in the office. The only time I could see him, even on Christmas Day, I would be training and they work you with that vision at the end of the bonus, the bonus at the end of the year. And that’s going to make your life happy as that bonus and that promotion. But it doesn’t. You lose, you lose, you lose perspective on your work life balance.

[00:08:59] Jeff, so you talked about the hours. Just just give me give me an insight into, you know, you’d wake up at this time, have breakfast with the family. What would happen? Give me a day or a week in the life of Jeff, the banker Jeff.

[00:09:13] The banker would get up at 5:00 in the morning check. The markets have a coffee, no breakfast jump in the car, driving to the office. Work all day. Finish like maybe catch lunch between meetings and finish. Work nine 10 o’clock at night. Come home to find you’ve left the house and the kids are asleep and you come home and they’re asleep. The weekends you try and do family time, but you so exhausted that you spend a lot of time sleeping to recover for that Monday morning again. And and it’s it’s it’s a treadmill. It’s yeah, it’s day in, day out and that’s the only way you succeed within the finances. Committing to the the bank’s ethos and mission statement and I was successful at it and I made more money out of it and I did really well in my career. It just it’s a young man’s game and I was finding as the more times you get made redundant, the harder it is because any time the market crashes. Middle management gets thinned out and all the higher, higher wage earners get thinned out. And then it’s harder to find another job. The similar calibre, similar wage and I had enough of missing out on the kids. I left my wife eight months pregnant at the airport, flying to Bahamas to deal with a crisis on one of the funds. I was a director where the market had crashed and we had about $20 million invested in it. So I left my wife crying at the airport pregnant and I landed in London and my boss phoned me and says, Well, we ticket a London Gatwick.

[00:10:53] It was more like a TV show. I landed in Kakuma as you’ve got 60 Minutes to get to Heathrow. Your flight booked. Pay the taxi, anything. So I paid the taxi driver an extra £60 tip to get me to Heathrow in 50 minutes from Gatwick. So you’re breaking the speed limits all the way. Got there to hear my name being called as as gates about to close. Jumped on the British Airways flight business class to JFK limo waiting for me. Sat in the back, heated it, sat in the front who was a guy from Peru, and he is fluent in Spanish and so am I. So we were blaring in Spanish and he gave me a tour of New York, got to Newark and to the Marriott Hotel. Five hours sleep limo back to New York Airport, fly to Nassau, Bahamas, into the Radisson. A cable beach dropped my stuff off. The heat was unbearable. It was August in Bahamas and going to a 12 hour meeting where I survived on a few sandwiches, loads of coffee. Managed to recover $7.5 million because they found. And the thing is, I tend to, I don’t know, I have a knack about finding irregularities or things that just don’t make sense. And I’ll ask the question, and I notice in the prospectus that the investors or the the fund managers had said no investments in Russia. But I recognise the codes as Russian details, so we threatened to sue them or managed to recover eight million of our nice bonus out of that. And my boss says, you need to fly back.

[00:12:30] And I said, I am exhausted. I’ve been on my feet for 48 hours. So he said, stay in Bahamas and relax for two days at our expense, which I did on a jet ski and lot of fun. Just go back to Gibraltar. My daughter was born. And it was it was an amazing journey while every young man, but you lose perspective. I lost perspective on. I was missing out to my family. I spent nine months marketing and I saw my daughter as a baby and then came back and she was walking, but wouldn’t stay in the house on her own with me. So and my wife is my rock and I sat down and that’s when I was in my 30s and I said, You know? There’s only one life, no dress rehearsal. I don’t think a lasting finance this long. I always wanted to do something in medicine. I always wanted to to be a dentist. And she gave me the go ahead to look into it. So it’s funny. I was in the library studying for my securities exams, for the stock exchange, and there was a chap from India called Priyank, a good friend of mine, and he was a doctor from India and he was studying for his medical exams, but he was fidgeting. He’s a very, very nervous guy and the table was rocking at the library and I said, Do you mind I’m getting seasick? I can’t even to read my book. And we started talking and we swapped books because he was fascinated by the stock market.

[00:13:52] I was fighting a need to buy his book in medicine, and I could answer just by reading. I could answer the questions in his exam. And I just got me that just gave me a. The boost to really investigate, so I went to the open day at Dundee. They told me I was told in no uncertain terms. The professor there said, Why would we give a position to you when you probably maybe only give 20 years of service to the NHS when I can give a 20 year old and you’ll do double the time? And I thought that was a bit naive because most dentists retired 50 55, but I went to Glasgow. I was speaking to a chap called David Steele, who is an oral surgeon. And he was a lovely, lovely man. And he said, Yeah, love to have you. You. I think you’ll bring a lot of life experience to to the course, but you need to set your highs again. Your A-levels or your high Scottish highs have to be within two years or on a science degree. So I’m thinking, Wow, how do I do this? There’s no colleges that do the three sciences, so. So I went to the local school and Bray’s high school, spoke to the deputy headmaster and said, You would love to have you. So I quit my job, gave my three months notice on Morgan Stanley. Borrowed the standard grades, physics, biology and chemistry books, because when I did physics, biology, chemistry, elite level, there was no calculators. It was the soccer was tables, no electric boards. It was diodes.

[00:15:23] Yeah.

[00:15:24] So I had to teach myself standard grades. During the summer, while working three jobs, I decided to move away from finance and I worked as a lifeguard. I worked as a pub manager and I worked as a in a restaurant while my wife did two jobs, two to three jobs as well just to make ends meet. Sold the house on a nice big five bedroom house. I moved into a three bedroom council flat just to reduce the size of my mortgage.

[00:15:49] And I hope you don’t mind me asking, right? So you were sure you were in banking, which I’m assuming, as you mentioned, was incredibly lucrative. Yeah. So in my mind, you sat on the sat on a war chest at this time, right? You’ve given your job up. And now is it because your lifestyle was in line with what you were earning back then? And you just you’re

[00:16:13] You live to your means? I mean, and the thing is, I mean, I was 26 and getting £170000 bonuses every year and you leave live to your means. You know, I’d I’d had had a Porsche and a BMW. I wrote to one car off at a Ducati. I wrote that off, broke both my legs and you had to go to a restaurant and say, We’re talking. In the 90s, I’d spend £400 on a meal with my wife and invite my friends mommy I’d never seen before. I took my kids six times to EuroDisney, so the Three Tenors in Vienna. And it was amazing. When I moved to Scotland, I spent three months looking for work at my level that ate into a lot of my income and I’d saved. Plus, I had some investments where the bank crashed so that my investments as well in Latin America, so I lost a lot of equity. So but you live to your means? Sure. I mean, I change a car every nine months because I got bored of it because you can’t buy another one, because you could, because I was 26 and 27 earning a bundle and I left to those things. I never felt off being a bit more shrewd than my dad would say, Oh, you should invest, and I would, and I did. And then the stock market crashed and I lost it all because as soon as you sell, you realise your losses.

[00:17:38] Jeff, what was it like going from a high powered banking position to then working as a pub manager in a restaurant? How did you make that transition and and how did you feel like came from nothing?

[00:17:52] We were very, very poor. I mean, I used to go to school with cardboard in my shoes, hoping it didn’t rain. Otherwise I’d have soggy socks. My dad was at the time until he became such a major. He was a corporal feeding six males living in a one bedroom flat six of us. So, yeah, coming from nothing, then having a lot. I mean, I had a couple of properties which I sold that I lost because the market crashed in Gibraltar to then going back to going through changing room lockers and picking up pound coins. And that would pay for my lunch at university. And you used to adapt and you lived to your means. The beauty of it was at the time my kids were pretty young and they valued that money doesn’t grow on trees, so they respected the fact that they can’t have Adidas shoes and Primark has just as good. And so it was educational just not only for me, but for my kids as well. We worked really hard and we appreciated everything we had was still managed, and we managed to get to Portugal a couple of times on £200 budget for two weeks, not five star hotel with three staff. But it was great. I had a pool and just left to those and the funny. The strange thing is I went back to a high school and it was a really rough high school and the level of poverty in this day and age was shocking. Kids would come in in the same clothes they’d been wearing for four or five days, and the only hot meal was the one they had in school. The funny thing is I was six foot four, and for the first month they thought I was a teacher once they noticed that I was queuing outside classroom and handing in my homework. They’d come up and say, Payman, you must be thick to be back in school and getting bullied by four foot.

[00:19:42] Nothing was

[00:19:46] Crazy. I felt like Mr Bean doing his exams in a gym hall and tables that were puny. But I just you just you become. I became humble and in what I was doing, I mean, I recycled to a restaurant and I leave a large tip. It is hard work being a waiter and it’s hard work being a lifeguard, just walking around in that heat and humidity for eight hours. It’s dull. So I do respect for other people have to do to make a living.

[00:20:18] Jeff, you must have had a crazy amount of drive to then sort of say, OK, we’re going to meet my wife going to work maybe four or five jobs between us. I’ve got this vision of dentistry. I’m going to go back to school. Yeah. And it takes a certain individual to, especially at that age, to then say, Right, I’m going to go back and go to school. You know,

[00:20:46] I was 35 at the time and I sat down with my wife. My in-laws stop talking to me for two years because they their view was I failed my family by quitting. Mm-hmm. And even the teachers, their physics teacher, Mr Gove, his son was a dentist, and he he told me, there’s over 900 applications. There’s no chance you’ll get in. So I lied to give up my friend. Priyanka, who was a doctor, says it’s very difficult to get in. So I like a lot of hurdles, but I had a lot of self-belief that I could. Mm-hmm. I mean, I had a backup plan. If I didn’t get into dentistry, I would have done an accountancy degree and either got into accountancy or taught. Being a teacher, I enjoyed the year I was in school, but dentistry was was what I wanted, and my grandfather always said, You know, we make our own prison walls. It’s up to us to break out. And I did, and it was hard. I mean, the first year my it was a challenge. First, first year my mum passed away in the January, so I took a couple of weeks out and then fourth year because because we didn’t know we were surviving on £12000 a year to pay a small mortgage.

[00:22:00] So this is now. You’ve done it. You’ve done your, you’ve done your school. You’re in Dental school now, right?

[00:22:06] Yeah. Well, I’ll go back to school. I had to get forays and so my my wife would send me to the library and pick me up every every evening and then I’d go to work. And she says, No slacking, no playing Xbox with your son. Otherwise back into finance would be there with a rolling pin mechanism. You know, it’s the five highs was more of a challenge than five years of Dental school. And as soon as I got my grades in August, and it shows forays and a b and that’s what I needed, and I got the B because I was late to my matric maths exam. I sat paper one and I recognised one of the invigilators from the pub. I went, so I went to the staff room, had a coffee with him and we’re chatting away and 20 minutes in, he turns around and says, Geoff, if you’re not people to to sit. I said, John, you know, invigilators know I was only doing paper one. I run like a madman to that Jim Hall to, but I never finished the Part two, so I won’t be for it. But anyway, I needed for and to be. That’s what I did it and I phoned the university and they said, Yep, you’re in. And me and my wife were jumping on the bed like two weekends. I’ve been excitement. Amazing. There’s such a buzz.

[00:23:18] Yeah, it must have been one of the best feelings in the world, right? You have those memorable moments in your life.

[00:23:23] It was just fantastic because there was so many people saying, you’re too old, you’ll not get in. There’s too much competition. I mean, there was 784 people. I remember that I played for 68 70 places and I go in and it was incredible. But then was, how do we finance it? And that was the challenge as well. So my wife had three jobs, I had three jobs. I maxed out my credit cards, used all my savings. I bought a motorbike so that I could get to university and the cheap because it cost me £2000. But then in fifth year, I had a really nasty bike accident. I broke both my legs again and hit diesel on a roundabout, and I got run over by a car. So I had to spend three months away from university and I thought, I’m going to have to quit. We were financially broke, absolutely broke and went to uni because I couldn’t work. I went to university and they tried to help me, but I managed to get maybe £4500 to pay a mortgage and kids when I’m only like. It was only three months into the course, into fifth year. So it was a professor. I called me sitting somewhat sombre in the coffee shop and he was saying, Jeff, you’re OK. And I said, I think I’m going to have to drop out. I’m in a lot pain. I can’t. I can’t work. And he says, Well, what do you need? I said £500 to get me through the month. And. Sorry to talk. Ok, John. So you wrote me a cheque for £5000. Wow. Which to this day still resonates. And it was just such a. Heartfelt thing for somebody to do. And Hillary, you have a lot of faith in humanity when people do stuff like that.

[00:25:21] What was his name, Jess?

[00:25:23] Oh, Roger Stone, Mr Roger Stone, and he passed away with cancer, unfortunately, two years after. But it was a hell of a guy. So I’ve got my flu as well, so I’m a bit emotional, I’m feeling really unwell. And that 5000 just got me through university. I managed to get even though I missed three months of it, I doubled up my time and used to go to all the clinics like I’d be throughout the day, just seeing patients and going to clinics. And I walked away with three BS from university and straight into vet, and that was just amazing. Vti was an absolute challenge, I was suffering from PTSD after the accident, I was rejecting one of the plates in my hip and I ended up with a hospital acquired infection. But my vet trainers were were not very empathetic to my situation, so I ended up back in hospital getting an operation, getting the plates removed back into vet. Feet was a challenge. I mean, the nurse they gave me had the reputation she was called Scary Mary, and she lived up to our reputation. They had all the

[00:26:37] All these and not to work with.

[00:26:39] She was. She was a nightmare. But it was a challenge. I mean, even the practise principal drove his technician to depression. And I’d be standing there watching, observing like making a partial denture. And it got to do a fit and he’d chuck it across the room when it didn’t fit. And I was so unprofessional. So it was a challenge. And I just at one point I thought, I’m going to have to walk away from this as I can’t do this university. The way the analogy I use his university teaches how to drive a car. It’s only when you’re on your own, you know, in a car on the motorway that you actually learn how to drive. Sure, it does. It doesn’t teach you what dentistry general NHS dentistry is from day to day. I mean, I did 15 15 amalgams in the five years I was at university because at the time Glasgow Uni were of the opinion that amalgams were being phased out. The reality of it is the NHS can’t afford anything else but amalgams. Mm-hmm. So coming into practise dealing with patients and their patient load that I was given was patients at the two principles do not want to see so much. So I remember one of the patients, one of the principal told me that patients, they refused to see them because they were worried what they could catch of him because the guy didn’t have any personal hygiene and his mouth was just as bad.

[00:28:07] But that was a challenge, and I got through it and I moved into a practise in Bannockburn, where I’ve been there for the last 10 years. Wow. The principal was an amazing person, is an amazing person. She sold the practise and the new principal is a lovely guy. And and I have loved a lot of my patients, love what I do within the heart. I passed my vet and within the first year of starting as an associate in the practise I had, the inkling orthodontics was the way I wanted to go down. I had a Nanny McPhee tooth. So much so I checked. Actually, when I had my bike accident, I was lying on the ground. After dragging myself from under the car with two broken legs, a police officer comes up and says, Your legs broke and I said, no, both my legs are broken by my bloody tooth. I was concerned about my teeth and my legs, so I wanted to align my legs and my leg, my legs and my teeth and my legs and operations were facing east and west and me and the principal. Patricia did the online course for the Allina, which was TIFF Qureshi. Mm hmm. You introduced the Indian Allina to to the UK and we sat there, each with a glass of wine, and the online course passed the exam online and I was my first patient and I just got the bug for it.

[00:29:33] I just loved it and then went to straighten my own teeth. Couldn’t tolerate in Manilla because talking with patients for eight hours a day was a challenge. So I came in a mouth full of grapes, so I did a couple of courses. I did a German German online, a system which I strained in my own teeth, and I did that Allina System for about six months, then didn’t like how some of the instructions that were coming, they were saying, like, if you’ve got an Ontario by to drill baby, drill down all the posterior teeth, and I thought, now you can’t be damaging teeth like that. And by that time, the Ace Academy had started up. So I did that clear aligner course and it opened more opportunities with patients, but I still found that I was having to refer quite a bit. So I did the fixed braces through Anoop Mani, who was a lovely, lovely man, and I owe him a debt of gratitude for the way the patience and the compassion he showed towards how I. I went down the fixed braces course. I mean, my wife was my first case and I bonded up and I sent a loop through the ear. This my bond up. And he says, Jeff, give me your mobile number. I’m going to phone you, says Jeff. Good effort, Anoop here.

[00:31:01] Good, good effort on the braces. There’s a slight problem, though the brackets should sit in the centre of the teeth, not on the incisal edges. Whoops. And he says, take them on off you’ll be. It’ll be an amazing experience for you and learning how to take him off before you’ve even aligned them, and we’ll send you a whole new set for free. And so I learnt to properly. He was such a lovely man. Lazy Anoop was amazing. Excuse me? Absolutely. And so I straightened my wife’s and my daughter wanted our teeth straightened and she knew want breaks at the front. So I went on. The lingual course did her hard teeth, which I submitted as a case for the IRS to 19, 20 18 awards ceremony symposium in London. And I remember as case. Um, and then had to do the advance once I got enough cases of fixed braces under my belt, I applied to do the advance and spent 14 months with the under the watchful eye of Ross. Ross Hobson, Professor Ross Hobson. And that’s changed my practise on my outlook all together. I’m a mentor. I asked if I could, what would be the route in order to be a mentor because I wanted to impart the knowledge had gained. And TEF says, would love to have you on the Abby line bleach and bond. And I’ve been doing that ever since. I just love it.

[00:32:30] Jeff, if we just if we just step back a little bit and then we’ll we’ll. I want to. I want to ask you a lot more about the teaching and your practise philosophy. At what point during that whole journey did life get easier? Because it seems to me from the moment you left banking to go into school and then the struggle through university and you know your wife being your number one fan, your rock and your motivator, right? That some somebody who pushed you through that process made sure you went straight to the library didn’t give you time to play with the kids and whatnot because, you know, she had the same vision as you. Right? And then and then during that initial vote, you’ve obviously suffered during that time. And you know, the degree of suffering is all relative, right? At what point during that journey did life get? Easy.

[00:33:28] So, Patricia, the initial the the original principle to the practise told me it will take you five years to get your feet under the table and have enough experience for a patient walking through the door with a problem, and you’ll be able to say, I know how to deal with that. I know who to ask to be able to deal with that. And it took me about five years to gain enough experience, enough strings in my boat to feel comfortable in my own skin as a dentist. And as I became more comfortable and more relaxed, so did the patients and the referrals. And with that came revenue as well, because you were more comfortable in not selling because I don’t sell to my patient, I give them options. This is private. This is this is NHS. These are the benefit. These are the risks. This is a choice. And I saw the seat. So even with orthodontics, I get patients that I sought that seats six seven years ago, having their teeth strengthened now. And it took me about five years to be comfortable in that particular environment of being able because dentistry is quite lonely. It’s you, your nurse and your surgery. And it’s it’s tough.

[00:34:44] It’s tough to have that rapport. Find a common ground with your nurse as well. And it’s a stressful environment. It’s you’re not just the dentist, you’re a psychologist, you’re you’re a medick, you’re a mechanic of teeth. And patients come in with a whole host of problems to sit in your chair and they just dump it on you. And it’s been able to be empathetic to deal with and try and advise and sympathise with them. But get to the root cause of what is your Dental problem and how can we help you in that respect? And that takes time, takes takes time to to be true to to do that. Fortunately, a lot of my banking experience dealing with the public helped me because there’s a lot of my colleagues that came out of university and ended up in an academic situation because they couldn’t deal with the general public. They just did not know very good at passing exams. Very good at the skill set, but not very good at dealing with with the public. And that comes with experience, with age, I would say. So it took me about five years. I would say OK to be comfortable in my skin as a dentist.

[00:35:58] And you alluded earlier to, you know, doing Six Sigma and following the Motorola methodology, right? Efficiency and that whole. I think you can get different belts in Six Sigma as well, and I’m aware of. And so how do the principles of Motorola apply to dentistry? And have you applied them in your own practise?

[00:36:27] I’m I’m still an associate. Yeah, and I do offer help. I’m going back about five or six years. Patricia, the principal at the time, says, Jeff, can you help me? The cost of supplies per month was running into six £7000 a month. The practise was just barely breaking even. And she asked, Can you help me? So I literally did a spreadsheet of all the materials we did, and we used and looked and shopped around and started playing companies against each other for the best deals. I managed to bring that bill down to sixteen hundred pounds a month. Wow. And looking at efficiencies and we still use those materials, the materials are the same. It’s it’s I can use a top quality material. I can use an equivalent material. And all you’re paying for sometimes is a label. Because GI glass is glossy, onomah bibs are bibs. You know, disposables are disposable, so you manage to shop around. And if we found that bill creeping up, I’d go back and negotiate prices, and that’s in itself. And since then, I pass that on to their lead nurse and she’s she’s taken it over and we keep that philosophy going. The price, if we monthly bills creep up, we shop around and negotiate between the companies and say, Well, we’re getting a 25 percent discount from this company. What can you offer and take it from there? I mean, so NHS fees haven’t gone up by much since 2006, but cost of materials have gone up by 25 30 percent and more now since COVID. So you have to. But there is still some. Colleagues that are reluctant to move away from your labelled trade name materials, and it’s nuts, it’s getting that balance. They’ve been able to negotiate that. But at the end of the day, the practises are businesses. You know, you don’t make money, you can’t keep the lights on.

[00:38:40] Sure, sure. Not many are so sorry.

[00:38:44] You know, I was going to say, I’m having a bit of a battle at the moment with a few of my colleagues because at the moment we’re handed the Scottish COVID restrictions where we’re operating at maybe 20 percent. My colleagues are wanting to open the books up and the Scottish Government have given no indication as to when things are going to open or improve while in the near future. But our books? I mean, we’re working two or three days. I work three days a week instead of my usual five. Mm hmm. And it’s all on a on a Tuesday just to NHS Wednesday, Thursday do private, mostly orthodontics and restorative generated through the orthodontics. But my colleagues are wanting to open up the NHS book further. But we’re not getting paid anymore. And the more patients you see for exams, the more cost comes from materials, wages and stuff without reading. I just don’t see how the practise can, not under the funding the NHS is currently limiting practises to and that’s my business mind. We had a brief conversation about him. I focus I tend to move, and I know it’s a two tier system and it’s out of my hands, but I’m moving a lot of my patients to the private side of the business, better materials, quicker turnaround times and it’s keeping the lights on and paying wages, especially with with a fellow finishing at the end of this month, I believe.

[00:40:17] Yeah, that’s the wages, Jeff. Just touching on the two tiered system as a clinician, how do you switch between the two one day operating as an NHS dentist and then the following day providing private dentistry? I’m assuming different levels of service, different materials, different amount of time with the patient. How do you switch your philosophy between the two?

[00:40:42] It’s a work in progress, and my nurse is a good counsel. She’s ageless with what? She’s a bit older than me, very wise for age as well. We’re like brother, sister. The patients come in and they say, you’re like husband and wife because we bicker like like brothers and sisters, but they laugh at us as well. And we just discuss, you know, there are times that I will treat NHS patients like if there were private, if if I feel they physically cannot or financially cannot afford the treatment. But as a battle, I was getting very, very stressed about it about six months ago, and my principal and my nurse were saying, it’s out of my hands, it’s the Scottish Government. So I try with my patients to do the best I can under the difficult, very difficult situation we’re in at the moment. We’re then using NHS materials. I will do the best root canal I can. I’ll make the best venture that I can within the budgets we’ve been given. Find the NHS wants us to offer a a marks and Spencers service on an on an Aldi budget. It just doesn’t work. No, no. But it’s difficult and it’s a moral battle. It’s an emotional battle from day to day.

[00:42:01] Yeah. Geoff, moving onto your your teaching. So, you know, it seems to me that you got engrossed in the in the IRS academy system, so to speak,

[00:42:12] Totally Solanki

[00:42:14] So so-called recall states, and then went full circle in becoming a mentor. And you teach them some of the courses as well. Instruct, I guess I’ve definitely seen some social media posts where you’re at least teaching alongside TIFF, for sure. Just tell us about that and how you got into the teaching side of things and actually standing up in front of people and teaching is that does that come naturally to you?

[00:42:42] No, I’m super nervous for a couple of days to the build up to it. I mean, I used to stand in front of a board of directors and throw up before I used to have to walk in and discuss. Mm hmm. With with with teaching within the is the you’ve got big, big shoes to fill with the likes of TIFF and Andy Wallace. Amazing, amazing wealth of knowledge behind them. And I feel very, very privileged to be alongside them, and every day is a school day. My vote, my knowledge from day to day I spend in their presence is vertical. It’s the learning experiences vertical, the the wealth of knowledge, and it’s incredible. And I just do my best to have myself fully prepared. There’s over 2000 slides for the AB weekend course and I’ve learnt them all off, by heart, by rote, and I’ve done background research on the Dow principle on the edge bonding that TIFF developed called a reverse triangle technique. And I just make myself the best I can be and be able to impart that knowledge without. Feeling that I’m watering down what Jeff and Andy have developed as a teaching principle. I hate to do do it. No service. That would be for me. It would be a failure and I, to be honest, if they turn their answers. Jeff, unfortunately, you know, good enough, I would put my hand and walk away. Thankfully, they haven’t said that yet.

[00:44:22] No, I think certainly the feedback I get from, you know, people who’ve been mentored by you, certainly on the board and the platform and stuff is that they tend to comment on on your speed of getting back to people and also the quality of information they receive. So, you know, passing on your knowledge and teaching and stuff like that, is that something you’re going to explore more in terms of progression of your career? Is that something you want to do more of it?

[00:44:52] Definitely. I’m 53 now, and dentistry takes a huge toll on your back and your ability. I, as I get older, I don’t know if I could do five days a week, and teaching just offers that opportunity to give you another career pathway to be able to learn from be able to pass on the knowledge you’ve gained and the tips and pitfalls of like from my own mistakes. Being able to educate and impart that knowledge to other other upcoming coming dentist for me is an amazing journey to be able to, to offer and to be part of. I feel very privileged, very honoured to have been given the opportunity. Being quite young in my Dental career myself, I’m 10 11 years out of university and it has just been. There’s been an amazing journey.

[00:45:55] Jeff, you talk about being absolutely petrified of getting up in front of people and speaking and think it’s something we all face. Certainly for me, when I’ve had to stand up on the stage and speak to people, the, you know, the adrenaline kicks in, the heart rate goes through the roof. And for many of us, it’s a normal feeling right. And for some people who do it day in, day out, like this, it’s just like another day in the office.

[00:46:21] Well, after after COVID and you had to do his first one, he needed a few beta blockers to calm him down. So just don’t tell him, well, actually, he’ll find out.

[00:46:31] We all know that now a secret is out, but yeah, it’s it’s one of those feelings that you go through. And I think anyone who thinks about teaching getting up in front of people, it’s not easy. You know, it’s it’s incredibly tough and I find personally the first five to seven minutes. And then once you’re in the flow, you’re like, What the hell was I worrying about? Did you experience something similar, Jeff?

[00:47:01] Exactly as soon as I, I’m worrying for two days. I’m reading through those presentations and all the notes that go through it weeks ahead. I’m on the I’m at the gate, at the airport, still going through the presentations. And as soon as I stand there, I’m thinking, I’m going, Am I going to forget? Am I going to forget as soon as you start talking? It just rolls off the tongue? Yeah, it’s I mean, I think the nervousness comes as well from the fact that you teaching a group of very well-educated, very knowledgeable individuals from different walks of life from different aspects of dentistry. I mean, the last one I was in Birmingham, we had an implant surgeon from Scotland who was very academically high in our skill set with a wealth of knowledge beyond what I have, certainly in implants. But the beauty of it is myself, Andy and Kelly Jackson, who was on the course what we imparted. She managed to take some value out of it. That and I and I got a nice message from her saying it’s it’s actually hasn’t answered a whole lot of questions that I didn’t have before on why a screw screws snap on an implant on the abutment. And it’s to do with occlusion and stuff, you know, and it’s things you don’t know what you don’t know. And that for me, it was amazing. But however smart you think you are or however knowledge you accumulate, you never stop learning throughout life.

[00:48:37] Yeah. So and learning, you know, I’m a big believer in learning from your own mistakes, Jeff, and something that we ask a lot of the guests on this show is about clinical mistakes. If you could sit back and reflect over the last decade or so that you’ve been a practising dentist 10 11 years, what would you consider to? Your biggest clinical mistake? Am.

[00:49:06] Trying to please everyone, trying to please principals, trying to please colleagues, trying to be my please. All the nurses you can’t, trying to please patients you can’t. It’s it’s impossible. You just got to do the best you can listen to to yourself and yourself and work to the best of your abilities. You can’t please everybody every day. And that’s for the in that first five years of trying to be comfortable in my abilities as a dentist. That was a big challenge because you listen to different people on how they operate. User Topham use users equivalent. Report this to child services. Don’t report this. You can’t use go to find what works for you, what works for your patients ethically, morally and as as long as you get to bed at night and sleep with a clean conscience. You’ve done your day’s work the best as you can. I think that that was the biggest struggle I had initially.

[00:50:10] So that Jeff, that’s almost like a philosophy, isn’t it, that you sort of mature? And then you begin to understand that when dealing with the general public or multiple different people, you can’t keep everyone happy.

[00:50:23] And if you do make a mistake, yeah, own up to it. I mean, you just because we’re all humans, and if you’ve got a nice report like a really good, I treat patients like I would be treating a member of family. So I’ve got a good rapport. I had a patient about four or five years ago. I was supposed to extract the upper left to and make a denture. In addition to the I was supposed to make a partial denture for the upper left to the lab came back. I never checked a partial denture, took the upper left to out, went to fit it in. The denture was for the upper right, too. I held my hand up to that patient, said I do apologise. Labs sent me the tooth on the wrong side. I should have checked it before taking your tooth out. You’re going to spend the next week with a tooth missing at the front. Is there anything I can do? I’ll do this. I’ll put it this way. I’ll make this tension for free and not charge you. How you feel. And she was super appreciative and said laughed about the fact that she’d be spitting peace through that gap for a week and it caught on up and be there. Our patients wouldn’t and take it to the cleaners. But if you’re honest and and admit to your mistakes and make make recompense for it, that’s the best you can do. And to this day, I think I’ve had one complaint in my whole career, and I think it’s down to how I treat patients and how I communicate with them.

[00:51:49] And that was what I was getting at. When I ask you the question, what was your biggest clinical mistake? It was something like that, right? And what we often tried to learn from when we speak to people about this is not really what the mistake was, but how you handled it. And what’s clear is that the world revolves around the communication, owning up honesty and doing whatever you can to put it, right?

[00:52:15] Yeah, totally. I mean, you went, it’s like you win some or you lose some. There’s there’s there’s a patient. I aligned their teeth about a year ago. He’s they’re not happy about their bites and I’m not going to quibble about it. The bite looks fine, and all I’m going to do is bond up again, back into elastics and try and get that back to socking better. Mm hmm. And you take the hit. I’d much rather that then he goes through a lawyer and looks six recompense at all. It’s going to cost the set of metal brackets three £540 and my time to have a happy patient who I’ve been dealing with and seeing for the last six, seven years. So that’s that’s my philosophy. I just have to always find a common ground with the patient. I can’t just say that’s it. We can’t do any better. You have to accept it. That’s just a recipe for disaster.

[00:53:17] You’re in terms of you doing a lot of orthodontics. Do you have any patients to come and speak to you or you have conversations with patients around direct to consumer orthodontic, so you order your aligners online or whatever, and then off you go treat yourself sort of thing. You ever had any of those sort of conversations with patients who said, Actually, I can get it cheaper by doing this, that and the other. Do you ever have any of those?

[00:53:41] I do, and I do a lot with Turkey veneers. And it seems to be the fad now. I have honest, honest conversation with patients who are actually treating two patients that have had direct to consumer aligners and ended up with the material combines in one case and the other one. It’s still as crowded as when they started, and they’ve spent £4500. Which is still a lot of money. I mean, I would charge as much as an orthodontist for four orthodontics. I try and keep it. I mean, I work in a village in rural Scotland, so I keep it competitive to my market. So I’m not much more expensive than what direct to consumer aligners are offering. And I do have these conversations saying to the fact that you wouldn’t have your appendix taken out by a surgeon who’s reading a book or by by somebody who’s not even a surgeon. Just by reading a book. Why would you have your teeth straightened by somebody who’s not no dentist as a technician? If things go wrong, if no, come back. And the same with direct consumer like turkey veneers. Yeah, turkey teeth. You go out there and if you get them done, I won’t touch because if I touch those crowns or those veneers, they you end up owning them.

[00:55:02] And I show them photos of the damage, the prep’s heavy preps on crowded teeth. I also show them the before and after photos of a particular celebrity, which will remain anonymous, where she had all our teeth crowned within a week, a couple of the crowns fell out and had to go back and they just pointy stumps. So I keep those quotas in insurgencies. This is what they’ll do to your teeth. You’ll not get much change. What I would be charging and you don’t get there’s not much difference from what. Yeah, and what they’ll charge you and what they’ll charge you. Why would you do that? Why would you? And sometimes they hear. Sometimes they don’t. But at the end of the day, you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. Mm-hmm. And the fat. Now I’m finding in his hedge bonding. I get tons of teenagers and early 20s coming in asking for hedge bonding on severely crowded teeth with the restricted envelope of functions. And I’ll say, yeah, I can age bond, but there’s no warranty on it because he’ll break with a bite you have. So we end up lining whitening and maybe, maybe, sometimes it doesn’t even age bonding. It’s their own natural teeth, and they’re happier that way.

[00:56:20] Sure.

[00:56:21] So how did that conversation?

[00:56:24] Sure. And just moving away from dentistry, Jeff. Definitely, I’m getting the feeling you’re a very wise man and you’ve been through a lot in your life, so tell us a little bit about your family and I’d like some advice. Tell us a bit about your kids.

[00:56:40] My kids, they’re amazing. Cameron’s 26, and he’s an accountant. He he wanted to be a dentist, but he preferred zbox to studying and going back to my own childhood. My dad was a sergeant major in the army. Very, very strict. Yeah, quite violent and a lot of times, and I didn’t want that for my kids. So that’s why I didn’t join the army. And I never I never forced my kids to do anything. I would just offer my advice. So my son learnt to lesson in himself when he didn’t get his great like his colleagues did his friends. His friends became dentists. He didn’t. His friends are now driving like Porsches and A3s and stuff. He he he can’t because he didn’t get the grades. So many hunkered down in his accountancy and did a masters as well because he didn’t do very well in his accountancy degree in either. But he got a first in his master’s, and it’s just about having the charts with them and saying, you know, it’s up to you. You can mess about now, but then you won’t have the wage all the job that you want. You won’t have the security for the house that you want. And the the one thing is when they were at university. The one thing I did is rather than pay rent, I thankfully dentistry gave me that opportunity to buy a flat and rather than pay rent, I paid their mortgage.

[00:58:09] And what I did as like with Cameron and I did with Rhona was, I say, spend the summer saving up what you save up a match and as a deposit on the flat at the end of university, you keep that flat and that’s your starting life. You sell it. Whatever equity you make from it, it’s your profit. And I did the same for my daughter as well. My daughter is a lawyer and she did really well, but she struggled. She wanted to be a vet and did all the sciences, but then went to the open day and spent time with a vet. Local vet and the local vet gave my daughter, who’s a young, impressionable, tall blonde, blue eyed girl, and gave the book about vasectomies on dogs. And they gave the I actually laughed my head off. I said to my, well, actually castrated the dog and gave my daughter his crown jewels and a pair of blunt scissors and told her to dissect the testicles and look in the book and see what anatomy features. You can see a division of adult looking back and say,

[00:59:15] I pulled back

[00:59:20] Myself laughing, but I put her off there being a poor soul. So then she decided she wants to be a lawyer. So trying to do a personal statement with sciences because she got five A’s in her sciences, maths and another advanced higher to to a law degree was a challenge. And then she struggled. She went to Glasgow Uni, and she struggled the first two years to the point she was thinking, Oh, I want to quit, and tomorrow I sat down with her. So if you want to quit, what would you want to do? Of course. Would you want to swap into or do you want to go to work? And she didn’t know. So I said, Well, stick it out. And she she stuck it out and got a two one in her degree and got a first in in the bar. She passed the bar. Currently works as a paralegal because due to COVID, there’s no very few law graduate jobs. The beauty about working as a paralegal is she’s learning from the other side of the table how hard paralegals work for lawyers to pursue. You do find lawyers don’t respect paralegals as much as they should because they they’re looked upon as the lesser of the academics or worker that they like the worker bees. Yeah. So she’s learning from the other side that it’s hard work being a paralegal. So when she does get her law graduate job, she’ll be able to understand more and respect and value more paralegals do so. So yeah, that’s that’s my kids. Rona is 22 and Cummins, 26. They’re both working from home, so we’re always competing for bandwidth. It’s a bit of a challenge, but yeah, it’s good. There are lovely kids, right?

[01:01:07] I’m Jeff. So we always end these interviews with you, putting on a little bit of a bit of advice for your loved ones. So, Jeff, imagine it was your last day on the planet, okay? And you had your loved ones around. You naturally, family kids. What’s three pieces of wisdom for life would you leave them with?

[01:01:33] I have no regrets. Follow your dreams. And treat everybody like you would be wants, like you would want people to treat you with respect. I think those those are the three things I live by.

[01:01:48] Yeah, totally. And if? I’ll rephrase this in a different way. How would you like to be remembered? So finish the sentence Jeff was.

[01:02:06] I don’t know, I’ve never thought of that. Jeff was. Nuts. People would say it was nuts. The things I’ve done and increase, I know nothing.

[01:02:23] I think what you’ve shared today, maybe a little bit and not, but for me, incredibly inspiring me. Having listened to your journey right from the beginning, from from childhood, right through to every single adversity that you challenged and the story that really hit my heart. I must admit, is the journey that you and your wife have been on together to for you to be who you want to be, right? I think that’s that’s really powerful and a really positive message for us all.

[01:02:58] Yeah. If you find your soulmate and just respect each other, support each other and and we’ve done that to see how it was our 30th wedding anniversary and where’s 30 years gone? I was a couple of months ago, and that’s. That’s just I mean, my wife’s been my rock, and she supported me throughout, and so are my kids. Yeah, and it’s been an amazing journey and life still goes on and I look forward to what life throws ahead of us.

[01:03:29] Yeah, it’s been great, Jeff. And one more question. Sure. You have 30 days left. Yeah, yeah. How would you spend it?

[01:03:38] Wow. I’d say golf and my wife would have other ideas. 30 days. I would spend it with my wife and kids

[01:03:50] With you, wife and kids. Yeah, definitely. No NHS crowns.

[01:03:55] No, no, no. No wife and kids. I just spend every moment with my wife and kids, and I try as much now because I know both of them have their own homes. That’s my son’s getting a house built. My daughter’s refurbishing an old or getting an old house. So they’ll be moving, moving out soon, and it’ll just be me and my wife again. And so I’m I spend as much time with him as I can now because I know they’ll have their own lives to deal with. So 30 days, yeah, I’d spend them with them. Beautiful. That’s a lot of whisky. Yeah.

[01:04:33] Jeff, thank you so much for your time today and absolute pleasure. I just thank you so much for your openness and sharing everything that you’ve been through, because certainly for me, I found it incredibly inspirational and I’m sure others will too.

[01:04:46] Thank you very much, and thanks for inviting me onto your show. I appreciate it.

[01:04:51] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:05:07] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] I worked hard, I never cut any corners. I have done nothing wrong. And what’s happened to me is simply a greedy act to protect a business or make a profit basically profiteer. And I just felt like obviously, you know, I had to stand up for myself and clear my name. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:00:40] The pandemic’s been responsible for highlighting some of the best parts of our profession and some of the worst divides as well. Many advice been exposed. I mean, things between private and NHS dentists. There’s been the divide between management and staff. Corporate and independent practise seems to come to mind. Crucially, the divide between practise principles and practise associates and out of out of that divide. During the pandemic, there was the payment dispute between some principals and associates, particularly in the NHS system and one of the many groups that actually did come out of the pandemic. I mean, there’s been lots of different groups of different subjects has been the British Dental Action Group, headed by Shazia Kalsoume, who actually it’s known mainly on on on the internet as Shazia Ahmed, but her her real name is Shazia Kelsie. It’s a pleasure to have you on the show, Shazia. We tend to start these things with sort of. Where were you born? How did you grow up kind of question?

[00:01:50] Oh, OK. Well, Payman, thank you for inviting me. First of all, I know you’ve been asking me for a few weeks and I just feel ready denied. I didn’t think I had much to talk about. But anyway, now we’re here. So a bit about my history. I was born in Birmingham. I was the third child in the family and the first child born in born in England. My father came here as a 15 year old and my mother married and came here and and then I was born. And so Birmingham working class family. And what else is there to say? Yeah. Born and bred Brummie University, what was

[00:02:34] What was childhood like? I mean, what kind of a kid were you studious?

[00:02:39] Yes, playful, quite playful. Not very ambitious as a child in a city playing outside, enjoying the outdoors, you know, it was a different time then. Yes, just played with your friends and it came in when it was dark, you know, carefree and went to a girls school because very traditional family wasn’t allowed to, you know, free mix with boys had to go to a single sex school. And at the age of 16 was meant to just like, you know, conform and stay at home. But my mother had a lot of ambitions for me and my sister. So obviously, you know, when they come from abroad, they scared their daughters might do the wrong thing. So you know, you got to protect them and keep the family name. And my grandfather was a headmaster in in India back in the day in Calcutta, but we’re actually from Pakistan. And he was very ambitious for us, children, grandchildren. So he kept encouraging us to get further education, especially as my father left his parents behind in Pakistan and came here worked. And my grandfather wanted us as children to get a good education in England. And so growing up, my mum wanted me to enter the medical field and she was very she really wanted me to become a doctor, but I couldn’t see myself doing on calls. I loved my sleep too much, so I said, Mum, OK, I’ll do dentistry because I was very practical and artistic. And although I loved art, you know, parents in an Asian family, arts is not your favourite subject in medicine, dentistry or law. So my sister was meant to do law and I was meant to do something in the medical field, so I chose dentistry.

[00:04:35] So then was that protective thing? Did that extend to university as well? Was it did it go without saying that you were going to go study in Birmingham or did you have ambitions of leaving?

[00:04:46] No, no, no, no. That said, no, that said no to university.

[00:04:50] You know, obviously

[00:04:51] That single girl girls not going to university really said mum said, No, my daughters will get a degree. Don’t worry about anything else. I guarantee you. You know, they’ll make you proud. And so based on that, my dad put his trust in me and my sister and both of us graduated. My sister’s got two degrees. The girls, my whole family, all the girls are very, very studious.

[00:05:17] So did you study in Birmingham?

[00:05:19] Yes. University of Birmingham all the way from Leeds to Masters.

[00:05:23] What was it? What was it like going from that relatively sheltered existence to being in Dental school? Did you? Did you? Did you? Did you take to it well or did you not?

[00:05:34] Very shy. I think I was very I was an introvert all the way through, not confident in speaking speeches and but obviously, you know, all the levers we have, we have to just get over that and get on with it. So it took a year or so just to be normal, but it was a new environment. It was scary, but it was it was really good. We had a bunch of friends, my my friends from university, we’re all still friends, we’re still in touch. And they had left Manchester, Liverpool and all these other places. So because I was a Brummie, I was the one looking after them and their parents were entrusting my family to take care of them as well. So we became good friends. So I was really good. Actually, I was glad I stayed in, but. Did you qualify?

[00:06:26] 2002 2002 OK. And then your first job?

[00:06:32] So this job, so it was very hard and competitive to actually get a place. There was a lot of favouritism in those days. The favourite students got all the vet places close by. And a lot of them wouldn’t get in place until the February scheme. And I was lucky enough to get in the first cohort. But I ended up in Stoke on Trent all the way in Stoke on Trent. But that was good as well, actually.

[00:06:59] And were you living, still living at home and commuting?

[00:07:01] No, no, no. My dad was. My dad was fine. You know, he knew. I think he was just a fear of, you know, first daughter in the UK, the first girl in the family going to university and no one was staying in Stoke on Trent with another friend of mine. So, yeah, no.

[00:07:20] So that was really the first time you’d lived out, right? Yes. Yes. Interesting, interesting. And so you’ve obviously still an associate, is that right? Must be right? Yeah. Doing this? Yeah. So did you never have any any ambitions to open your own practise?

[00:07:37] Oh, many ambitions to open my own practise. First, I kept putting it off up until 2006, when I got married. I kept putting it off thinking, Oh, I don’t know where I’ll end up in which city, and what’s the point of buying a practise when I don’t know where I’ll end up? Because for me, marriage and children and family were very important, so that was a first stage and then second stage would be practise. And then 2006 new contract happened and I was actually in a very good contract with my boss. I didn’t see the need to open a practise at that moment in time, because had he kept me on after my maternity leave, I was on a very good package because I worked extremely hard in the in the in the what was it called the testier when they were doing the figures for everybody. And I made sure I took no holidays. I just worked so that I can get a good package. And then I got married.

[00:08:36] Yeah. So you got married and then and then the kids come along and then that was the end of it.

[00:08:41] And I got married. I had my first child, went on maternity leave, was about to come back, and the boss said, Sorry, Shazia, there’s no job for you.

[00:08:51] Oh yes, he

[00:08:53] Took the lovely contract that I had to work hard on to create for myself. I took it, put it in a practise based contract from my individual contract and decided to say goodbye to me.

[00:09:07] So was this was this the original seed that started this idea of fighting against injustice, which I kind of every every word you write on that on that group just has that for me, resonating with sort of unfairness and injustice being the your driving force in the profession, was that the first time where you felt hard?

[00:09:30] That was the first episode of an unfair treatment where I’d worked extremely hard to make myself a good working career lifestyle as an associate, only for someone else to push me out. And and it was done by a person who was very high up. That was the worst thing for me. And to

[00:09:58] Be someone you were someone

[00:09:59] I highly respected and was highly respected by by the leadership in Birmingham and somebody who was looking after hundreds of young associates to I had because of his position, and when it happened to me, I was just in total shock and I wasn’t going to let it be because I felt if it happened, if it’s happened to me, it will happen to all these hundreds of people going through this person every year. So I did, I did pick. I did end up in tribunal employment. I did. And well, I was a first person to put a test case through to determine our status, whether we’re employees or, oh, really? Yeah, whether we are employees. Because the way we were being treated in the new contract, we were being treated like employees, but there was no precedent. So my case was used to create the worker status for associates. It was found that although we’re self-employed, the way we are treated, we are not employees. Although the judge said to me, If you today, if you were an employee, you were treated very unfairly and you would have won this case outright. But because you’re not an employee, you are a worker. Your case is not thrown out. It’s carrying on under discrimination. So now you’ve got to prove that this was discrimination. And then the judge also turned around and said to my boss, And all you have to do is bring some of your members, some of your employees, and say that you were given the impression that you should get rid of it. And based on what you were told, you terminated the contract. It was nothing to do with basically discrimination, so it’s very difficult for me to now prove that I was being discriminated against.

[00:12:02] Tell me, tell me the pressures that you were going through at that time, it must have been, I mean, if you’ve got someone who’s who’s very respected in the profession and you were a young associate at the end of the day and you decide to take that person on. At some point, did you think, you know, what the hell am I doing here?

[00:12:20] No, this was a case of I was very much confident that there was nothing wrong with my work. The only fear anybody in my situation would have that they’re a poor performer and GDC should be the only fear. And I knew I worked hard. I never got any corners. I have done nothing wrong. And what’s happened to me is simply a greedy business act, an act to protect a business or make a profit, basically profiteer. And I just felt like obviously, you know, I had to stand up for myself and clear my name because I needed a job. I was I was young. I had many years ahead of me. And how can I just let this person terminate my contract and carry on? I couldn’t pick myself up after that. I’ve just had a baby and so

[00:13:20] Many other people, many other people, would have just moved on from it. But you decided to take it on. Yeah, what is it about you? What is it about you that makes you that cat?

[00:13:32] I can’t take injustice if somebody’s done somebody unfairly. I feel like I had. Maybe my father’s the same. Maybe stems from my father, my father. He was my grandfather as well. They all stood up for justice from Pakistan to England. My father was the first independent councillor in Birmingham, really, who took on the Labour Party. Wow. Yeah. So so you feel

[00:14:01] Like you feel like in your upbringing, that idea of justice and fairness was something that was something they actually talked about, something that was actually instilled,

[00:14:10] Instilled as a child, I think. I always just saw people knocking on the door. I never saw my father. All I heard was people asking for his help all the time. I never saw my father until my mother passed away in that year when he, my boss, did that to me. My mother got cancer and I was all I was. I had a child, my mother was terminal, and this was going on so. It was a battle that I unfortunately, you know, because of my status, I couldn’t fight, but I wanted to protect others and I wanted to clear my name and I wanted to move on with my head held high because I wasn’t going to let a guy at the top tell people, lies about me.

[00:15:02] Hmm. So then when, when, when we were all there during the pandemic, when the initial stories started coming out about principals who weren’t giving the what was it one twelfth of the contract value to their associates? Did this suddenly sort of bring back sort of flashback to your previous experience? And you said, I’m going to stand up for this. I mean, you know, why is it? Why is it that you were doing that and I was barbecuing? I mean, you know what I mean was it was that what it was?

[00:15:34] No. So basically, I mean, the group initially started off. I mean, I hadn’t been on my Facebook for years, years, really. Honestly, I have not been on my Facebook for years and my my husband’s an ICU consultant, and he was looking after COVID patients while I was still treating patients with no mask. I mean, surgical mask, no PPE. So when he was coming home and I was unprotected and he was coming home exhausted with all those marks on his nose and exhausted from PPE. And yet he was incubating people that were asleep who can’t even cough. But yeah, he was saying to me, How come you are creating aerosols on 30 patients a day plus and you’re just wearing a surgical mask? I mean, what’s the point of me going to work full PPE? I mean, they were ahead of the curve they were and this is March. This is February, Jan, February 2020. We closed down in March, April. Yeah. And he’s coming home and he’s saying, What is this? I’m dying at work. Know in this PPE and you’re bringing these viruses home? Yeah. And what is the point? And I’m looking after patients in intensive care. Can you find out what’s going on because this is not right? So then BDA, no information. Facebook So you know, DeFodi, they must have something. Nothing. Couldn’t see anything on PPE. I was the first person to mention that there’s something called an FFP3 mask and we’ve got to get fit tested. And weeks later, these things started emerging for us after lockdown. So and so. So that’s how my group started because people were asking these questions on the other groups. And there’s a habit of on other groups. People get shot down for asking questions and they get humiliated. And I’m like, I don’t like being humiliated, especially in public.

[00:17:39] So I’m not going to go there just to be shut down. So I said to my colleague, I said, Do you think I should separate group for exchanging information because we all don’t know what’s going on? And she said to me, Shazia, if anybody can do it, you can because I’m always trying to organise things and I’m always trying to read up on subjects and in the practise. And so I thought, you know, why not? What have I got to lose? So I started off the page for that really information and just asking questions in a safe environment. Lo and behold, query started coming in. And I think the case that really put me into action was a young dentist. Well, probably middle age because she’s she came along and she said, Shazia, my practise hasn’t paid me. They’re not even answering my phone calls. And I’m a single mother and I’ve got my daughters, my daughter’s university loan. I’ve asked her to take a loan so that I can pay the rent. You know, and that I just couldn’t. For me, that was a case that made me feel like what is going on. So then more people started coming through and then I started saying to them, Why don’t you go to the LDC? Ldc would say, Well, you need to talk to your principal or go to the BDA. Bda would say, Well, you need to be a member. But initially, although media did actually give free advice to non-members as well. But in order to get actual face to face advice, they’d have to upgrade to the thousand pound membership. And remember, these guys can’t even afford to pay their rent. How can they afford to pay the BDA that kind of money?

[00:19:22] And did you have a grasp on how big a problem it was?

[00:19:26] No, I had no idea. All I saw was people going around in circles like headless chickens. Yeah. At that point, and this was a couple of months in now at that point. Lots of stories coming in. My boss is only paying me 30 percent of my one twelfth. My boss is only paying me 40 percent. My boss has got to me to sign a new contract. And my boss has shot down the practise. They’re not even answering the phone calls. There were so many stories, and at that point I felt like right. I need to do something here. And because, you know, my dad was a chemist as well. He said, This is not right. You’ve got to go. This is a legal thing. You’ve got to go to solicitors and barristers, but I’m the type know we need to speak to the authorities first. So then I started writing these. Well, first I thought, What do I do? So I wrote, I did. I did a petition. First, I thought, I do. I don’t know who to contact, which door to knock for these people. So let’s do a petition. Let’s get about 1000 people to sign the petition, and then I’ll just send it to any email I can find. So then I contacted the BDA and I said, Could you give me some emails I need to send this petition to? They gave me some emails and I think one was a CDO. One was the NHS, one was the NHS leadership anywhere and everywhere. And then luckily, Jason Wong picked up this email and was able to draught a new letter to send out to the providers, outlining their obligation towards as contract holders towards associates.

[00:21:06] So let me just understand this correctly is is it in law that they had to give this or is it not? Because my understanding in law was that it was a kind of advice from the BDA as opposed to.

[00:21:21] That’s correct. It was that the police, it was advised and it wasn’t a law because, you know, anything that has that requires contractual change. So that’s that’s too long winded. So it’s an obligation, but it’s a condition and a condition still must be respected because if it’s not, it’s a breach.

[00:21:44] Yeah, yeah. So so when I say, did you have a grasp of the numbers? Do you have a grasp of the numbers now? I mean, what percentage? Because, you know, obviously I’d say the vast majority did pay, didn’t they? Oh yeah, tiny minority. But how many are we talking?

[00:22:00] Well, well, the thing is, initially, from what I’m told, there was about a thousand people that filled out the complex this new survey. But then they closed the compost pages survey and they asked people to do it again with second time round. Many people didn’t because, you know, it’s it’s a traumatic experience to write out what’s happened to you over and over again. And a lot of the times people felt that they couldn’t, even because some of them are still working for the same. Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:36] So so then on your website, you did it like a complaint forum log in thing.

[00:22:44] So what happened was, I did. I did one first and then I asked the NHS to do one, and I said, Look, I can do it, but shouldn’t you be doing this? Yeah. And then they did it.

[00:22:58] Because so you think you think at least a thousand disputes on pay?

[00:23:05] I think there was definitely at least at least, yes, but remember, a lot of people will just stay quiet. They will not rattle the cage because they don’t pay their bills.

[00:23:19] And do you do you in any way understand. The practise owner’s position. In this. Or not, do you think it’s just pure profiteering? I mean,

[00:23:32] I don’t think it’s pure profiteering. No, not in all the cases. There are some people going through hard times. Look, the NHS contract, we all know that it’s not fit for purpose, right? We all know that. Yeah, a lot of people have taken out huge loans to have the security of a contract, to pay their outgoings to run a business. So I totally understand that some of these people have taken a huge risk, and for them to pay out what is required without activity would mean the loss of the business. I totally understand that. Yeah, and some people have got very small contracts and they actually earn their living or, you know, the overheads by the other activity, the non NHS activity and when that’s down. Surely these people can’t afford to pass on this money, this contractual pay for to somebody who hasn’t actually done any work. So I totally understand that. And no one, I don’t believe it’s total it was profiteering on behalf of the on the expense of the associate, but I can understand that there were reasons behind some of these cases. But then there was corporates. There was big, many corporates as well. We were doing it, so there was a definite profiteering aspect to it.

[00:24:57] So tell me, tell me some of the worst stories. I mean, you said that one.

[00:25:01] And so that was one of the worst ones. And I mean, to be honest, you know, it’s been a whirlwind for me since all of this. Every day is my brain is saturated. To be honest, I can’t.

[00:25:14] I mean, I read one on on on your group. Maybe, maybe it wasn’t right at that time, but later than the with foreign dentists getting really nasty deals with their paying people to work in their practise. Is that. I mean, did I read that right?

[00:25:29] No. Well, sorry.

[00:25:30] The paying to work in a practise.

[00:25:33] Some associates, you mean the I live on? Yeah, the PLV e ones. I think in London and some places like that. In order for these guys to get a performer. No, yeah, they they work for free.

[00:25:46] I’ve heard work for free, but also pay, pay, pay a thousand pounds a month for mentoring fees. Yes, I can believe yes.

[00:25:54] Yes, yes. The mentorship. Yes, the mentorship means that these guys have to find a private tutor to to watch over them, and they’ve got to pay these mentors. That’s right. Yeah.

[00:26:09] And what about what about non dentists disputes, staff hygienists, receptionists? Are you saying BDG is also representing those people too?

[00:26:19] Yeah, we had many enquiries from hygienists as well, and we also have cleaners and all of these people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Money was just not being passed on and and it was sad because these people couldn’t be furloughed. These people still had bills to pay and nurses were going to food banks at that time. I remember many nurses saying that and even associates were going to food banks at that time. So that’s what made me feel like I needed to start writing some letters, and so once the Jason Wong letter was picked up, then I was writing weekly monthly letters to the NHS saying This is still happening and this is what’s going on. Could you do this? We’re doing this on the blog. Could you do this instead? And so I hope I helped. I mean, there’s many stories, many people who are pointing out the many, many people have said that, you know, so I’ve had a few handful of emails to say that, you know, BDD saved their life.

[00:27:22] Really? Yeah. And and so now it’s it’s sort of moved on from that, that basic COVID pay dispute, yes, to anything and everything where it’s kind of principle versus it’s a little bit adversarial and not that I’ve got a problem with it because, you know, the way I think of it is the associate nurses, hygienists, receptionists, they probably form my staff 90 might be too much. 70 percent of the Dental workforce. Yeah, or more. Eight, Let’s call it 80 percent of the Dental workforce didn’t have or don’t don’t have kind of a place to talk and represent themselves. And you know, there are groups for practise owners, right? There’s this code and all of that. You know, the BDA in many ways represents NHS practise owners. It’s the way I think of it.

[00:28:24] Well, a lot of people see it.

[00:28:26] And yeah, and if you think about it, it’s actually quite a small number of people. Nhs practise owners? Yeah. Yeah, could be, I don’t know, 15 percent of the workforce. And it’s so clear looking at the Buddha’s moves that they are the priority. You know, and so this group that you’ve now I see questions coming up where people say, Oh, I’ve just got a I’m looking to get a job with so-and-so corporate who has anyone else worked there? And what are the problems? And suddenly, 42 responses on that subject. I saw some sort of naming and shaming going on on the group. Yeah, what what do you think about that?

[00:29:10] Well, I don’t advocate using the use of any particular name on the group because we don’t want to get involved in any vicarious liability. However, we’ve had several people. I mean, there was one situation where Robert Jamison on the group has helped many people get money out of a particular small corporate quite successfully. These people thought they had lost thousands of pounds and there were ever so grateful to him, and this person who was doing this to these people was actually very, very bad to the point that he made these young associates feel like they were incapable of being dentists.

[00:29:55] Yeah. So talk me through the

[00:29:57] Mental health psychological.

[00:30:00] Yeah, it was to do with sort of sort of, first of all, obviously withholding pay. And then when they were going after their pay, he was sort of threatening GDC.

[00:30:09] Mm hmm. Oh, that’s a common tactic used by, isn’t it many? Many, I mean, when? Now, I had to do a presentation for the Kdo. I had to run a workshop and remember the all the stakeholders BDA, GDC, NHS University Deans, everyone sits at that meeting. And I did tell them that GDC is being used as a weapon to get associates to keep their mouth shut and move on. And then they did produce a statement to say that if we find any provider doing that, they will be in more trouble than the associates, so they better, they better watch out.

[00:30:52] But so you know of examples where it’s actually happened, where they’ve they have been reported to the CDC or is it the threat of the threat of it is?

[00:31:00] No, no, no. The people have. And there are a couple of cases where the associate has been reported to the NHS and then the NHS is bound to report it to the GDC. And whether the case is kept on or thrown out because of causes, all this pain and agony to disassociate. And there are several cases like that

[00:31:26] Has the opposite also happened. It must have, right? So we’re associates have referred the principle to the NHS or the GDC. Well, retaliatory.

[00:31:36] I am not sure of that, I think. I think associates are very careful to rattle the cage. I’m not I don’t know of any cases, but several lots have actually reported on the pay to the NHS on campus on pay dispute, for sure.

[00:31:55] I mean, look, Sasha, we’ve got this sort of face sad state of affairs then, isn’t it? There’s I mean, we know about it, right? There’s massive disunity in the profession. And every time we try and change something, what tends to happen is there’s so many little factions that break out. But we never sort of can do something with one voice at the same time. How long did it take for your group to get up to 3000 4000? How many members?

[00:32:26] We reach the 3000 mark within within six months, I’d say.

[00:32:30] Yeah. So it’s at the same time as that general. You know, that disunity that we see every time we try and do something, you do sometimes see things like BDG, or maybe, you know, the the private group that started as well quickly gaining ground because there’s that there is a need for, you know, there’s a vacuum of representation and so forth. So what are some of your ideas around fixing this issue? I mean, we can fight and fight amongst ourselves, but how do we how do we become more unified profession so that, you know, you must have act your brains about how do we make this NHS system work? Well, how do we, first of all, get together to play this game?

[00:33:12] I think it’s taken me a long time to figure out that how the NHS works. Firstly, I mean, I was a normal associate not bothered about Dental politics before all of this, and when I was thrust into this position, I had to quickly learn. I had to join my LDC. I had to stand up for the PEC election I had to. I was then made a stakeholder for the CD monthly meetings. Every month I learnt from them. I learnt so much. I’m also on Contract Reform Committee as at an advisory level, representing associates and of course, providers to when I can. And I’ve learnt, I’ve learnt a lot. I mean, you know, all of these groups are trying to improve the working conditions and improve dentistry. What the big elephant in the room is that the NHS contract, I mean, NHS dentistry is a luxury in the NHS and we are taking up money that they want to use in other services such as cancer etc. Yeah. When they know that dentistry is a preventable disease, I get the feeling that they don’t really want to.

[00:34:29] You know, they’d rather put this money elsewhere, so the more of the more of us that understand the figures, I mean, because I mean, OK, on contract reform, we’ve given some guidelines as to OK, you guys have got to sit in this room and every month and we’ve got to talk about improving our health outcomes. We’ve got to improve access, we’ve got to do X, Y and Z, but there’s no increase in funding. You’ve got to see more people, you’ve got to produce better work, you’ve got to do all these things. But by the way, there’s no extra funding. Yeah. Now on a contract which has been prototyped since 20 2009, I believe and apparently all the prototypes have not been able to improve outcomes. Dental health outcomes. How are we supposed to on this NHS in this new contract reform, supposed to improve outcomes and increase access with the same old money? I just don’t understand how I can physically happen. So are you saying that it should become a core service? Because that’s the only way I see numbers increasing and access increasing?

[00:35:45] And are you cool with that?

[00:35:46] Am I call me that? Not really, because I know that there are people that do need the NHS beyond a call service. I’m not cool with it. But on the other hand, if principals are going to do over associates because they’re not in the right contract because the NHS is not paying them properly, if it’s going to sort out all the headache, I’m getting on the BDG for free on a voluntary basis. And if people are not, leadership is not going to take responsibility for all of these associates and treat the workforce properly. Then, you know, just be honest, just be honest with us. Tell us what’s on the table, tell us this is it. This is all you’ve got and get on with it. Then associates can decide whether they’re going private or whether they’re staying on in community and specialisation or whatever. It’s about time we had honesty.

[00:36:40] When you say when you say honesty, do you mean honesty to the public?

[00:36:44] Well, both the workforce, the the associates are in limbo. Yeah. None of us knew. I mean, BDG members of the BDG are learning about the NHS system and the funding and the money and the pot we’re learning now. Prior to the pandemic, most of us just had our heads buried in people’s mouths, getting on with our nine to five. That was it.

[00:37:11] So look, you’re probably more privy to these numbers than I am. Yeah, but my understanding is two and a half three percent of health care spending goes on dentistry. Yeah. Is that right? Something like that’s about, yeah, I think so. Let’s imagine that that that that is fixed, that’s not going to increase because as you said, there’s cancer treatments and all the, you know, the cost of health care is, you know, mushrooming anyway. So let’s imagine no more money is going to go into it. So Shahzia, Health Secretary, what are you going to do with that two and a half, three percent differently to what we are doing right now? Because I think your idea with the core service, I think that’s a great idea. Well, you know, I know it wasn’t your idea, but but

[00:38:00] But my idea,

[00:38:01] I think, I think it’s

[00:38:02] Workable. Firstly, look, firstly, there’s two or three percent that’s invested in dentistry doesn’t even cover 50 percent of the population of the UK. Like, if all of us decided every single one of us decided to go and have a dental check-up and treatment, we would run out half of the population or less, obviously would would not get the treatment right.

[00:38:27] Yeah, we get less. Yeah.

[00:38:29] So I mean, on the news, all I hear at the moment is we need access. Patients want to get in. They can’t find an NHS dentist now as NHS providers and performers. How can we take on more new patients when we haven’t been given extra funding? How do they expect us? I mean, it’s logical, isn’t it? We either we start seeing urgent cases and treating them on our existing contracts and make the numbers add up. Oh, we carry on with routine dentistry with our existing cohort of patients. How can we be asked to increase access with the same amount of money? So what’s the solution? What’s the solution? What is the solution? The solution? I mean, these contract reform meetings are going on. I think they’re carrying on until January. There are supposed to be some quick wins at the moment. So there was some talk about keeping like 20 percent of the contract for other activities of the practise, 20 percent of the contract, which won’t won’t be UDAS. You can do other things with it so you can choose what you want to do with that. Whether you want to see new patients or go to care homes or I don’t know. I don’t know. So definitely reshuffling there is some reshuffling taking place. I don’t think anybody’s come up with a solution, but I think it’s time that the workhorse, the performers providers all got together instead of being so disunited decided that, look, this is they keep on the 11th hour. They give us these targets and we say, yes, you know, they say jump, we say how high. You know, we’ve got to say, look for God’s sake, give us some respect, give us some respect and let. And I don’t think anybody is going to give it to us. We have to demand it. Yeah, we have to come together and we’ve got to demand the contract that we want because without us, there is no NHS contract with all. If we go on strike for two weeks, the public will be telling the governments to sort us out. And that’s well,

[00:40:50] That’s not always how it works, right? That’s always how it works. That’s not always how it works. Sometimes, you know, people go on strike, train drivers go on strike, five minutes go on strike and the public go against them sometimes. But look, look for me,

[00:41:05] The lorry drivers at the

[00:41:06] Moment, lorry drivers them. For me, it’s a funny thing. Look, I did. I did. Yeah, and I hated this. By the way, this was nineteen ninety six when it was. Everyone thought how wonderful the NHS was 50 per item and all of that. You hated it. I hated the fact that I had to think about what the government’s position is before I can do whatever I want to do on this patient. The idea that I could only do what the government would let me do was so disgusting to me that I decided I was never going to work in the NHS. Come with me. Whatever happened? Yeah, OK, so, so so. I went in 1996 and made an offer to an associate to a principle he couldn’t refuse. I said, I’ll take 40 percent, not 50 percent. Back then it was 50 percent right and I got out of it. Yeah. Now it’s not feasible for everyone, all of us to get out of it. Yeah. But one thing that I’ve noticed and one of the sort of for me, one of the nicer things that’s happened through the pandemic is that patients who could afford to take care of their own Dental treatment, but we’re still being seen on the NHS, are now moving over to private because they can’t be seen on the NHS.

[00:42:19] And for me, that’s a good outcome of the pandemic because these guys, they could afford it. They had enough money to see a private dentist, but they were still stuck to their NHS. And so you know, what should happen going forward should be that we need to, you know, it’s a bit sad that every time you talk to an NHS dentist, you the complete experts at the sort of the the money side of it and how much they can do for what and the regulations. And this sort of red tape, for me, really sad that. Much of the workforce specialised on this aspect of dentistry, which doesn’t exist in lots of other countries at all. And rather than going ahead and learning about endo or going ahead and learning about whatever bit of dentistry interests you, we’ve got to do almost have to be an accountant and a lawyer first. Yeah, before you can even. And then and then when I talk to my indemnity friends, they say, Oh, much more legal problems happen with NHS patients than with private ones, which is a double whammy. You’ve got loads of patients, not enough money. And now this GDC thing, you know the indemnity problem as well. No wonder people are demoralised right now. One.

[00:43:42] Their hands are tied. Hands are tied limited. A limited time, limited

[00:43:49] Materials,

[00:43:50] Materials, you know, and we’re supposed to produce the best, best outcomes.

[00:43:55] Yeah, so, so, so personally for you. What made you stick at NHS dentistry? I mean, did you not think, Hey,

[00:44:04] I’ll go private? For me, I’ve actually worked in high needs areas most of my life, and

[00:44:13] It’s even harder, right?

[00:44:15] Very, very difficult. Yeah, very difficult. And you know, when you’re a woman and you’ve got young children, yeah, sometimes you have to take on a bad deal just to be there for your kids. Yeah. And I was one of them. I took on the hard jobs just so that I could finish work at three o’clock and pick my kids up myself. And the beauty of that is that you do become a very good dentist. You learn, you learn techniques, you become the best dentist you can be.

[00:44:53] Under the circumstances,

[00:44:55] Yeah, under the circumstances, and of course, if you’re willing to learn and I’ve continued, I’ve done a masters as well, you know, advanced general dentistry, I’ve done all the courses under the Sun, I’ve done a certificate in implant ology, I’ve done all the Botox and the fillers and the

[00:45:10] Has.

[00:45:13] My CV is brilliant. I have never been declined a job and my next ambition is to have my own place.

[00:45:20] Tell me, tell me, tell me about being a woman and then being, You’re wearing hijab, being sort of a minority woman in dentistry, is it? Do you find that, you know, it’s problematic? Do you not find it’s problematic? Tell me about it.

[00:45:38] Patient wise, it’s absolutely no problems. Never had an issue with patient touch. What patients judge you by your skills, your kindness, your care? Yeah. And I’ve had people follow me from practise to practise and people. Patients begging me never to leave so patient was never a problem.

[00:45:57] Getting a job wise, if you have people sort of, you know, judge you or your

[00:46:01] Wise again, I think I do get the how does she fit the part? Will she fit in? But I’m quite a warm person and sociable person. I think open minded people straight away, they see beyond they look at my skills, my CV and the way I am as a person, my characteristics. So so far I think I do. It’s harder and I’ve never thought of leadership, never, ever thought to put myself in leadership. I’ve been thrown into that. Never thought I would be. In fact, now I people contact me because they need my opinion. I it seems

[00:46:43] Like you’re thriving, though, in the leadership role. It seems like you like it.

[00:46:48] I enjoy it, I do enjoy it. I was I was before I was frustrated in why are things not happening? Why are we in such a situation? But now I feel like people are listening to us. I feel like people are taking me quite seriously and people are listening to what I have to say. And often my contribution is take welcomed and it’s almost people tell me at leadership level that you’re the breath of fresh air that we we had been waiting for. So that’s given me the confidence to forget about my job and forget that I’m a Muslim woman. It’s actually all the gremlins. I had all the barriers I had put up. They’ve all gone.

[00:47:33] When I’ve spoken, I’ve spoken to Sophina Ahmed, who I know you, you know to. I’ve spoken. I’ve spoken to several ladies who say to me that one of their drivers is the idea that people think this, this this lady with a hijab, it’s just not going to have anything of value to to contribute. You know, they’ve got that sort of basic idea in their head that someone who’s downtrodden or whatever it is and the driver,

[00:48:04] You know, the media portrays the image of a hijabi woman as an oppressed,

[00:48:09] Oppressed, oppressed. Exactly.

[00:48:10] And we are not oppressed, for sure. Well, the liberated women we are, you know, our husbands, you know, they what they earn is ours, and what we earn is ours to part with a penny of our money. If we do, it is, you know, if are religious Islamically, if we part with a penny of our money, it’s written down as a charitable cause. So it’s a double whammy for us. We are. I’m so glad I’m a Muslim woman because I have got, you know, I’ve got I’m liberated because, you know, my husband has to take care of me. I don’t even have to work if I want to. I work with because I want to. I love my job and

[00:48:56] What I’m saying about a driver, it’s like the drive, the deep drive to make a difference. And these ladies, for me, was something that and they said it themselves as well was was to do with the fact that, Oh, you think I’m an oppressed, silent person, but actually, I’m going to show you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Do you have that within your zone?

[00:49:18] Oh, yeah, absolutely. Driving the air, we need to show people that please, for God’s sake, media is the media is out there to put their own stunts and to brainwash you. We are very happy, liberated women.

[00:49:34] And interestingly, you said it was your mum who who had all the ambitions for you, right? Yeah, even one generation back that was still

[00:49:43] My mom was a businesswoman in her own right. I mean, she was a she. She was a property entrepreneur. She had encouraged my father to buy properties. And, you know, he’d just want to work and go and do his politics. He was so engrossed in his political world and she’d expect him to invest in property. So, yeah, yeah, no, no, no women. Muslim women are definitely liberated, not oppressed.

[00:50:10] Tell me this during this little journey that you’ve been on, and it hasn’t been long as it’s this part of your journey. It’s been about 18 months now. Yeah. What’s been the darkest day?

[00:50:22] Well, darkest days, darkest day, darkest day. Ok, you shall I don’t want this one.

[00:50:28] Yes.

[00:50:35] Ok, I lost a job, I lost the job because my boss was told that I’m rattling cages.

[00:50:43] She lost a job that you had one that you were going through,

[00:50:46] Just started helping out at one that I had lost. So I’ve got my main job and I have a couple of days to help other people and I normally go by word of mouth and I help friends or friends. And locally in Birmingham, I had helped somebody before. And he had asked me to come and help him again. And whilst I was helping him, he got a phone call from these top boys in Birmingham and to say that you know, your associate is rattling cages. They thought I wouldn’t find out, but the manager told me.

[00:51:27] And that’s that scared him enough for that. What are you saying?

[00:51:30] Yeah, that scared him to think so. So these people are talking about. Yeah. Trying to say that. Look, you need to like scare. I think they were trying to scare me to stop doing what I’m doing because I won’t have a job. But that won’t again, if I’m not worried about my work. Nothing’s going to scare me.

[00:51:50] But but you are casting that as your darkest day right now, a

[00:51:53] Dark time for me because I was I felt scared. I felt scared and then I thought, OK, so you’re going to do this, I’m going to come and join you. So I joined them as well. Mm hmm. So I got elected and I joined them too.

[00:52:06] And what about if you regret sort of mistakes, but you think you’ve made along this journey, what would you’ve done differently?

[00:52:16] At the moment, at the moment, I have no regrets, perhaps one regret I have is I think I’ve been too engrossed in this, and I’ve kind of my kids have to get on with things like, you know, I’ve neglected my time with my children a bit. I prioritise my group and some like we’ll go out with family on family occasions and I’m sort of on my phone checking who sent me an anonymous post or if I can help somebody and a went on a walk with me and we’ve got her across the road and I’ll quickly check my messages and start replying. So my regret is not really a regret, but I feel like I was just too engrossed in. I was on a family holiday last year in Turkey and I was still on my phone. I just can’t let go of the group. It’s like a baby.

[00:53:05] It’s a labour of love love. But you know, I’ve talked to other people about this, and again, I don’t want to bring up the woman thing again. But women are the ones who seem to have guilt on this subject more than men in my in my experience. And in a way, if you want, it is what’s your kid learning when they see you working and engaged? And, you know, as passionate as you are, the kids learning that the kids are just just like, just like you when you saw your mum, tell your dad, buy these properties and take these risks. And you know, at the moment at the time when your mom was looking at those property leaflets or whatever, she wasn’t playing games with you. But but you learn loads from that. Yeah. And I tell you something else that the one thing that I hear from some people is that, you know, as a mother, I’ve got to look after myself first before I can give. By the way, I know loads of mothers who don’t do that right. Only, you know, they become the master of the situation. But, but but that bit of advice of, hey, only I can only look after my family once they’ve looked after myself is actually quite beautiful to take the guilt out of motherhood. Yeah. You know, and and your kid says once they how old are they now?

[00:54:31] 14, 12 and seven

[00:54:34] Are three kids? Well, then you know they’re old enough to understand now. Yeah. So definitely your 14 year old is old enough to understand, you know what my mom is, you know, helping people with their careers right and and and helping people with their health and all that. That’s a great thing. You’re setting a great standard. You’re setting for your kid. You know, a good example you’re setting for your kids. It’s. Don’t feel guilty about it. That’s that’s all I’m saying. All right. Going forward, what do you think is going to happen to the group number one? What’s going to happen to the contract? Do we know anything? You seem to be privy to these meetings?

[00:55:14] Yeah. Number two. Ok, so number one, the group, the group, the group will carry on, the Facebook group is there every day. Anybody can come and post their query anonymously. The group has definitely got its own niche and if anything, the best thing the any, any big group they can do is take it on officially.

[00:55:38] And by the way, does anyone help you? How many have you got? People you know, who also help on the group are the dentists.

[00:55:44] I thought, I’ve got to. I’ve got a website team, so the it side, they help me, but they dentists, no non dentists. I’ve got somebody helping me, my website and membership. So there’s a free membership website on WW British Dental Blockchain.com, so

[00:56:04] Paid for all of that that the group pay or did you pay what

[00:56:07] I pay for that I’ve paid for it. And if I want from my pocket because I felt like if people are going to take me seriously, I need to. I need to look the part because remember, the group was actually initially just called associates. Yeah, I remember it was Charles Yeomans, Associate, Facebook Facebook page. And then when I was put into fifth gear with all the letters, I thought, Oh gosh, we need a name, we need a name. And then we came up with British Dental Action Group, and I’ve been privileged to have some advisors in the background that I can turn to ministerial level who can guide me slightly. And that’s really helped. And then I’ve got some little helpers on the group that will send me the odd motivational post for associates. And I’ve got Nayar who helps me with the queries that come through. So I’ve got people who are very passionate about what’s going on in NHS dentistry, at different levels and non dentists that are very keen to know what’s happened and. People that are following my journey who couldn’t believe what had happened.

[00:57:20] I’m certainly following your journey. Tell me about the BDA elections and your thinking around. You almost got it. Didn’t you almost got elected?

[00:57:32] Well, I was a third or fourth place, wasn’t I? It was really good result for somebody who was like five months ago. And that was again, I mean, when I when I started the associate group, I was very, very pro BDA. You know, we need to help the beat. We need to reform. The BDA and BDA has got to become a better group and the all encompassing umbrella body for us. And when I started to get the posts about the queries about that, we’re being asked to upgrade and I can’t afford it. And the media was really trying. They were trying. I can’t knock them for that. They weren’t really working hard in the pandemic, but I think they thought they had too many, too many, too many people to look after, and I think it must have been a difficult time for them. Let’s just put it that way. Yeah. So people were saying to me, Look, you guys are all just ranting on this Facebook group, you know, put your money where your mouth is. Come and join up the Valdez’s and join the PDP and join all these organisations. You know, don’t just shout. So I thought, You know what I mean, business? I will. I will do this. I really want change and and people at leadership level were saying, Shazia, please stand. We need people like you in there. We need people like you for change. The same old people are there, which is why we’re not seeing any change. And in order for you to make a change, you need to be inside, not outside. So I thought, you know what? I will give it a shot. I will. So I did. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of apathy out there, isn’t there, if it doesn’t work to you. It doesn’t matter. So lots of people did vote for me, but many couldn’t be bothered to post their postal votes. Many didn’t. I mean, out of four thousand one hundred odd votes I got.

[00:59:35] I mean, listen to this Shazier. We’ve done 102 episodes of this podcast and the the one that was listened to the least. Or maybe the other thing was the least it was be the second or third worst listen to one was the one about the BDA recollections.

[00:59:53] You know, it wouldn’t have completely detached themselves from media. And that’s such a shame because I think politics in general are union

[01:00:02] Politics in general. Yeah, is is is a difficulty when it comes to dentists because, you know, dentists feel so powerless. And so let’s get onto that previous question that I asked. You’re on these in these high level meetings. What’s what’s your view on where the contract’s going? And will it be a contract worth having for anyone?

[01:00:24] I think a huge, huge reform is required if the funding is not going to increase, a huge transformation is required.

[01:00:33] I mean, are you talking each performer having their own contract? Are you talking that

[01:00:38] Kind of move? I don’t. I don’t think they can afford to give each performer a contract. Well, I tell you something. If they came every single person or performer and it just performer a small contract, say a hundred grand. Right. One hundred and fifty grand and said to them, Go just do your emergencies with this. Every single person, every single person with a performer, no get 100 or 200 grand contract. Yeah. Right. Go, go. Increase access. I tell you something. The access problem will finish because people will invest their savings on the high street, set up a practise, see NHS patients, take them out of pain and say, Right now you need X, Y and Z. I can do that for a small charge. It’s that if that’s the deal, that this is all there is, then doesn’t it make sense? Well, of course we don’t want that. We want everything and everything on the energies.

[01:01:38] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s a difficult one man because, you know, you’d imagine someone in my position. I saw teeth whitening systems, right? You’d imagine someone in my position wouldn’t be affected too much by the NHS. But but I’m not silly enough to think that. I mean, I know many of my biggest users got to where they got to by initially having an NHS contract and the security that that gives you. Like you said, the borrowing you can do on the back of that set up set up their practises and now they’re doing teeth whitening and now they’re talking to me. So you know this, this two point five percent that’s going into our profession, it’s got to keep going. But, but but at the

[01:02:24] Same time, how is it distributed? Is a question.

[01:02:27] Yeah. At the same time, I’d like to know, I mean, I don’t know this. Maybe you’ve got a clearer idea in Canada, in Australia, in New Zealand, in America, how much per capita goes into Dental and what are the other systems? Are they are any of them better than ours in that sense, you know, per capita that

[01:02:48] We did, we actually do something on the BTG about this, and many people did their research and sent in all the different systems in many, many countries, and I passed them all onto the NHS. I passed them all on and they asked me, Shazia, could you find out and send them? And I did, and I’m not sure what they’ve done with it. But they they will see that there are lots of systems, and I think some of the successful systems are whereby there is actually everybody gets this voucher scheme whereby they here you go. You can have this amount on the NHS. Anything extra, you’ll have to top it up yourself.

[01:03:27] Yeah, yeah. And my uncle works in Canada or worked in Canada, and there was a similar thing, although it was sort of via the insurance company. So, you know, there wasn’t proper NHS, but the government would pay up to X amount for Dental insurance and anything above that. You know, it’s an interesting idea, right, that if you take that 2.5 percent split it by the number of people in the country means test it. So if you earn over a certain amount, you don’t get it kits and so forth. Everyone comes in with their three hundred pound voucher. Do what you like with the 300 pound voucher as long as you spend it at a dentist.

[01:04:07] Yeah, interesting.

[01:04:09] Yeah.

[01:04:10] Well, that requires huge reform, doesn’t it? Because don’t forget these people who are holding massive contracts and these corporates. Can you imagine redistributing their contracts? They’ll be up in arms. I mean, yeah,

[01:04:22] They’ll get down. Some of them will go down.

[01:04:24] Yeah. So it’s a difficult one. Very difficult one.

[01:04:29] Definitely. Well, it’s been a massive pleasure. Speaking to you shows you and you know what was in my head. The question I had in my head is kind of been answered nicely, you know, like y y you, you know, this combination that you’ve explained to me, if your dad the sort of the idealist he’s, you know, a politician as well, you know, you know, for me, I always think I’m never going to change anything in this, you know, I’ve always like scared of it. And on the other hand, oh, I think I’ll change the world of toothpaste. Yeah, so so, you know, I think I can change something. But when it comes to these sort of thing or or sitting around a table, listening to everyone, talking and the agenda and all that just drives me crazy. But but obviously, you know, you’re good at that. So the combination of your dad and everything that he stood for and your mum and the ambition and all of that, it’s answered my questions nicely about why, you know, Shazia from Birmingham is the one who decided to stand up and and do this. We always end this show with the same questions to Prav famous final questions. I do apologise because they’re a little bit dark. Some people think of them as dark, but I don’t. You’re on your deathbed. Oh yeah. You’ve got all your nearest and dearest with you. What are three pieces of advice you want to leave?

[01:05:59] Oh. Be kind. Be honest. And I’ll work hard.

[01:06:12] Nice. Nice. The second question. It’s also dark. You’ve got a month to live. You’ve got your health. But, you know, you’ve got a month to live. What do you do in that month?

[01:06:30] Spend it with my family. Yeah, spend it with my family. Blow some cash on handbags.

[01:06:42] No holidays.

[01:06:45] The best shroud going. Choose a nicer plot. No, no. Just make sure you know, spend some quality time in the family. Make sure the kids are all, you know, sorted. All my financial affairs are in order. Yeah. Okay. So close friends. Close family.

[01:07:13] It’s not a great question, really, but you know, privately will admit it. But looking back on, you know, places you’ve been times you’ve been with the family where it’s been your happiest times. When when was that? Where was that? How was that like?

[01:07:27] The happiest times. Oh, God, there’s been several happy times on holidays, holidays.

[01:07:33] Where’s your favourite place for holiday? All Disney. Oh, really? Florida best. I hated it.

[01:07:41] Know coasters are amazing.

[01:07:43] What can I tell you? Well, I didn’t realise you could jump the queues by buying this other ticket. Yes.

[01:07:48] The children’s yeah. With your kids, you can skip all the queues.

[01:07:50] I didn’t know that.

[01:07:53] Do you like roller coasters?

[01:07:54] Not really. Not really.

[01:07:56] Well, that’s why you like the final.

[01:07:59] The final, final question. Perhaps final, final question. How would you like to be remembered?

[01:08:05] Shazia was Shazia Shazia, the woman from the pandemic who helped to change dentistry, NHS dentistry. She just changed the whole of NHS dentistry.

[01:08:18] Lovely. Well, it’s been a real, real pleasure having you.

[01:08:22] Thank you very much for inviting me. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys.

[01:08:43] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Why am I so optimistic? We have this discussion sometimes, you know, my son nowadays and we discuss and and I think if you look at the world as it is now, sometimes media likes to portray doom and gloom, you know, and says, Oh, look as a shortage where there won’t be any food in the stores and there won’t be any petrol because the shortage of this and this doom and gloom. But when you look at the civilisation as such, we have moved so far forward, look at the good things that have happened. You know, there’s so many good things happening all the time.

[00:00:43] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:00] Too many people I speak to their careers have been sort of shaped intellectually by their first boss and, you know, I’m no different. My first boss is to that is today’s guest on the show, my first boss in practise. I mean, I had I did. I did the house show. But my first proper boss is our guest today, Nick Mahindra, who I’ve seen. I’ve watched his career from near and from afar go through NHS practise, mixed practise, high end private practise innovating, which will get to new ideas, new thoughts. And you know, if I if I had to think about it, I know I wouldn’t be where I am today if it wasn’t for Nick, that sort of free thinker. And I’m not only thinking about dentistry of a free thinker in general, there’s a massive pleasure to have you on the show, Nick. We start these things generally with the back story childhood.

[00:01:58] Well, I was. I saw it with my grandfather. My grandfather was born in India, and when he was in his twenties, Kenya was just being colonised and the British were building their railway down there, you know, just starting building the railway. And he was an engineer student and he went over to Kenya. He was employed by the British Railway people, and he went over to Kenya to. And he was the head of the building, the station master, as the railway was going into the mainland. And that really is the start of the innovative nature of our family. He wanted to explore things. He wanted to go forward. And I think that has carried on throughout our family’s history. He went back to India and then returned back to Kenya. My parents all lived in Kenya, but I was born in India. All my other brothers and sisters were born in Kenya. But for some reason my dad wanted to go back to India for a while and I was born there, and then it ate. At the age of five, I think I was six. He decided to come back to Kenya, and I always thought of myself as a Kenyan for when I first came to this country to study. Anyone would ask me, where are you from? And my answer was, I’m from Kenya. And over the years, that has changed. What am I now? It’s difficult to say. People say, Oh, of course you are British now. I’ve got British citizenship. But do I feel British? I don’t know. I don’t know.

[00:03:52] I mean, Nick, we’ve talked about this before about the influence of of one’s past. And I’ve always been impressed by African Indians in one sense and that they keep managed to keep their culture so intact. Throughout that move and then the same African Indians turn up here and again have to make it yet yet another sort of cultural move. And you know, we talked about this before you married a Scottish girl. That’s right back in the sixties, was it?

[00:04:27] That’s right. It was 1970, 71. I think it was married, you know, but we met in the 60s when I was at university at Edinburgh.

[00:04:37] Yeah, and quite a big step at that point. I’m sure. I’m sure it was. It was very rare and interesting thing is still quite rare. Not that common for Indians to marry out of Indian families,

[00:04:51] But that is true. That is true. You know, when I married your friend and we had our children, I said, this generation is going to see a very multicultural society. Yeah. And I think although we are going towards that path, but it takes a lot longer to eventually call the world as multicultural, still to stuck up and being British or Indian or American or Australian or whatever it is. But we have to, at some point of the other, realise we all belong together in the serve. Yeah, and the Earth is a very small part of the universe, you know?

[00:05:38] And what would you put you put it to, I mean, what’s your position on why more Indians don’t marry out of Indian culture?

[00:05:48] I think that’s a difficult one, that’s a difficult one.

[00:05:52] I mean, it’s not we’re not saying one is better than the other, right? But you’re right, in the amount of years the Indian subpoena, you’d expect more integration.

[00:06:00] Yeah, I think it probably is that. I don’t know. I think integration seems to be. You know, sometimes when you come to a new country, you tend to relate to people that you know from your past and therefore you get not segregated, but you get isolated into little bubbles. Yeah. And it’s very difficult to break out of these little bubbles, although you are living in a different country and you’re meeting lots of different people. But when you go home, you go back into that little bubble and it seems that, well, this Brexit thing just shows you that that bubble of being British is very difficult to sort of broaden yourself and say, No, we are Europeans. No. You know, so I think it just takes a lot longer than I thought. And this is why we are finding that it’s it’s not happening as fast as we think it should.

[00:07:10] What about when when you were a child in Kenya where you weren’t, you weren’t like the other Africans you were, you were an Indian. Did you feel part of that country or did you feel separate to it? Did you have any sort of barriers?

[00:07:23] I think we were there were barriers there as well, because although I thought of myself as a kid, Indian. But the way society was organised in Kenya in those days, there were schools for Asians, for Indians. There were schools for the white Europeans who had gone there and there were schools for the Africans. So you were segregated and you were in your own little bubble, you know? So when I came over here, I thought of myself as a Kenyan. But really, when I look back now, that was just a word because I didn’t feel like an African. Yeah, I really still felt like an Indian. You know,

[00:08:02] So tell me about the decision to leave Kenya and to come to Edinburgh to study. And you know, when was the first time you thought, I want to be a dentist and what was the influence that made you do that?

[00:08:16] Interesting, yes. It was my sister, actually. She went to London to study. She’s much older than me. She’s probably about eight years older than me, and she’d come to London to study optometry. And when she came back to Kenya, I was still at high school doing my A-levels. And she said to me, What do you want to do? And in those times, there were many choices given to you. You were either. Schools were divided into three main groups, so you went into the arts side or the science side. And then the science got divided into two biology and physics and chemistry, you know, so depending on which part you were in, so if you were in the arts, you had to become a lawyer. So if you were in the physics and chemistry side, you had to become an engineer. And if you’re in the biology side, you had to become a doctor and that’s how it was, you know? So my path was destined. I was going to become a doctor. And why Edinburgh? Well, my sister said to me, look, she knew a dentist in Edinburgh, in Scotland. And she said, Look, dead medicine is a very, you know, you really got to be devoted to medicine in those days to want to do medicine. She says, Have you ever thought about dentistry? I said, No, I haven’t. And she said, Well, why don’t you do dentistry? And after your first year, if you decide you don’t like it, you can change. And why Edinburgh? Well, in those days, the three top schools were guys Edinburgh, and I think there was a third one. Cardiff, obviously. Not quite, but I think it is God. There was a third one anyway, so I applied to all of those three colleges universities. I got rejected by guys, but Edinburgh was my next one that accepted me and I said, Yes, I go to Edinburgh. And that’s how I ended up studying it.

[00:10:33] Were you parents quite well-to-do to be able to afford to send both kids to the UK from Kenya to study?

[00:10:42] That’s right, that’s right, parents had to be quite wealthy to do to send children to in fact, what happened in our family was my sister, the eldest. She came to Britain to study, yeah, the second in the family. He came to study and did engineering and the two other. There are five of us in our family and the two others. My dad could afford to send them to university here, and they studied in Kenya. And then it came to my turn. And by that time, my sister had qualified. My other brother, who was an engineer, he was qualified, they were all working and they said to my dad, Look, our youngest, we’re going to send him to Britain to study, and if you can’t afford it, will chip in and pay the fees, you know, because all the fees had to be paid. And dentistry fees are quite high. And so the whole family then pulled in to let me study.

[00:11:43] How did it feel getting off that plane? Was it the first time you’d been to Britain? That’s right. How did that feel? That must have been a massive shock, right? Was it Nairobi to at home?

[00:11:56] I think the excitement of coming to a new country and whatnot really didn’t feel like a shock. I go back now and think back about the time when I was in Edinburgh, and I can remember going from the halls of residence to the university and the tears pouring out of my eyes because of the cold wind that used to be blowing, you know? But at that time, no, I didn’t think two hoots about it, you know, just got on with life. And once you start university life, you start to enjoy. So much are so many clubs to go through so many things to do the best

[00:12:30] Years of your life, best if you like. Did you manage in that? Was it. It was a four year course, wasn’t it? In that four years? Did you manage to get back to Kenya at all or did you just hear the whole time? No.

[00:12:40] My dad had eventually decided to leave Kenya, and he was living in London. I used to just go back to London, not to Kenya.

[00:12:49] I see how. How were you as a Dental student when you were? You like a good one or more like me?

[00:12:58] Well, the first two years I remember. No, the first year, actually.

[00:13:03] Which year did you meet Fran? Let’s start with that.

[00:13:06] I met her when I was in the dentist course was five years in Edinburgh. It was. It was, yeah. So I skipped first year because I’d got good grades in A-level. So they said, you can skip the first year and join in the second year. And I met Fran when I was in the fourth year. Oh God. But in the second year, because I’d come from a different country. Work ethic was you had to study a lot and I really worked very hard and I think I got a distinction in biochemistry or something like that. And my second year or the third year in the Dental school, by that time, I’d started enjoying life too much.

[00:13:54] Well, they say, they say, if you can remember it, you weren’t there right about the late sixties. That’s right. So that’s

[00:14:04] What happened. You know, that was the year of the psychedelic drugs and whatnot going on, you know, so.

[00:14:12] So then you I guess you qualified. And then did you? Was there a thought of staying on in Edinburgh?

[00:14:20] No, no, no, no. Because my parents had all supported my parents and family had supported me, so I knew I had to come back and sort of repay my debt to my family, you know? So when I came back, I bought my dad. We all bought a house in London and he lived there. Then while I worked in London for a couple of years, and then I went to South Wales to buy a practise there. Oh, and my parents then kept on living in their house. So in a way, I felt it was a debt that I owed my family and I felt relieved that I’d been able to do it.

[00:15:01] So that practise were the first one in South Wales that was like a proper full on NHS in the good old days of separate.

[00:15:11] That’s right. What happened was I wanted to really buy a practise in London because London was someplace I knew when I was looking for practises in London. They just weren’t many practises coming up. Most of the associates who were working in the practise would usually buy the practise if the owner was retiring. So the practise that came up were very rundown. So Fran and I decided, Look, we’re going to move out of London and let’s see what we can find. And the first practise we went to was this practise in South Wales, and the dentists there was very persuasive. And he just ended up buying this practise in Aberdare. Now you probably know everything. It’s one of the mining towns, you know? And but really, that practise is where I learnt a lot of things. One of the things that the alert down there was making dentures because dentures were never not taught. They were not that fashionable in the dental school. You know, if you wanted to do anything, you had to become an oral surgeon or something else, you know, dentures or something. But in South Wales, we used to make about, Oh, I don’t know, I forget now about 20 30 sets of dentures every week.

[00:16:34] Yeah, it was definitely high needs for dentures down there. They used to teach us a lot. Well, it’s difficult for me to to know whether they taught it more to us in carpets than than other studio other places. So, you know, you’re saying that practise taught you the beginnings of business. I remember you telling me, or maybe it was Fran telling me that, you know, even within the NHS system, you were really into doing your very best, giving the very best to that patient and making sure everything was right.

[00:17:05] Well, yes, because, you know, I mean, I started doing multi rooted route treatments on molars. Yeah. And I remember one of the chaps who used to work for me on a Saturday he used to teach in the hospital in Cardiff. I forget his name now anyway, and he was really quite impressed that I was even trying to do roux treatments on molars, you know? So I really wanted to, yes, keep up to whatever was the nearest. And in fact, that’s what happened. Well, what happened in South Wales was that our first son was born there in 1975, and after 18 months he got very ill. He developed a kidney problem, kidney disease, and he was treated at Great Ormond Street. And they said to me that, look, you have to move into the catchment area of Great Ormond Street for him to be able to have a transplant at the age of five because they wouldn’t do a transplant before the age of five in those days. So that’s why I moved from South Wales to Kent because Kent was in the catchment area of guys and Great Ormond Street. And even when I moved to well, one of the things that happened was when we did move, my son went into remission and then he didn’t need a transplant. So my aim in practise then became solely, What else can I do that I can, you know, they have pushed the boundaries to make my son better? He used to go to Great Ormond Street every five days to have a transfusion, a plasma transfusion because he was leaking so much protein. And so there really pushed the boundaries to keep him going. And now he’s gone into remission. What should I be doing? And my aim from that day onwards was whatever I’m going to do in my practise, let me try and do the best that I can, you know? And as you remember, I think I was, I’d already started increasing the vertical dimension.

[00:19:18] And yeah, the first time I met you, you were already doing that. But but this is to remind me, what year did you go to Kent?

[00:19:27] Right? Ok, so that must have been nineteen eighty nineteen eighty.

[00:19:32] Right? Yeah. So I met you. I happen to know in nineteen ninety six. So yeah, so you were in that practise for 16 years before I met you? Yes. Wow. And I remember on that first time I met you, you showed me a denture and you said you could. I think it was you were going to increase vertical by 20 millimetres on the right. And I just stood my finals right and the rule was two mm was the maximum. Yeah. And I thought, Oh my God, like, what’s he talking about? And but then you showed me this picture, this x. A photograph of this face pre and post, and just by looking at that picture, you could tell that it was, it was, it was a goer, you know, something something was up there and. And then of course, we found out years later. And today it’s a fully accepted that you can increase vertical by those amounts. That’s right. And that’s and often our discussion, mine and yours have been around this subject of, if you know, something to be true, do you need to prove it to the academic establishment and you’ve always thought of the academic establishment as your kind of target? And for me, it’s a similar story, but it’s kind of the commercial environment. You know, I know a certain gel to be better than another. You know, some some someone might come to me and say, Hey, prove it. Yeah. And I haven’t got a paper on it, but our discussion minded yours has always been around this subject. If you know something to be true, who should you prove that to?

[00:21:13] I wish I’d followed your advice

[00:21:15] Some years ago, because changing

[00:21:20] The profession is a much, much bigger task. And if you’ve got the money, they listen more. Yeah.

[00:21:28] To be fair, one of the things about you that really impressed the hell out of me and someone like TIFF Qureshi is a perfect example of this is someone from a single Dental practise making a change to the way we think about something you know and someone from a single Dental practise hasn’t got the same leverage as if, if, if your idea was thought of by the head of restorative dentistry at Eastman Buy. Now that it would be all over the world, it would be in conferences and so forth. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, but if managed it somehow, yeah, he did manage to get his idea out of that practise.

[00:22:10] Well, that is the difficult bit, you know, when you’re in general practise and you’ve come out with a revolutionary idea. I remember when you came, you know, and you saw me increasing the vertical 20 mm and whatnot, and you said to me, Oh, I went back to my professor in prosthetics and told him, I’m going to work for this like man like Mahindra. And he said to you, Are you going to work for that mad

[00:22:33] Man, you know?

[00:22:35] And I still at times, unfortunately, I still feel like a mad man because I’m saying in these COVID days, you know, this relief could be helping people so much

[00:22:48] And we say, OK, let’s start from the beginning of this for someone. I mean, you’re talking about it like everyone knows what we’re talking about. But but it started with increasing vertical dimension on four full cases.

[00:23:01] Well, actually, if you really want to go back to the square one, it was, you know, the first thing I did in practise and Kant was looked at my peril cases, and that’s when I first developed the idea of zero bleeding index. Yeah. And because we were being taught to use floors and I used to get hygienists coming in and they’d start using floss. And I discovered that no flossing wasn’t the right answer. The incidental brushing is the one that will give you zero bleeding index, you know? Yeah, but having achieved that in my own mind, then I said, What’s the next thing? And the next thing was occlusion, because occlusion was a big thing in those days, it still is. And I remember my quiz was the one whose books we used to read, and I read all those books and I would practise occlusion, study occlusion on articulated and everything. And then came Brandon Stack with his ideas on the TMJ. And he said without dealing with a joint first, all this occlusion thing is rubbish. You know, you really got to treat the joint first. And I started treating the TMJ joint, and that’s when I started to use the pivot appliance. And the idea came to me that look, unless we increase the vertical dimension, we will not solve the TMJ problem cases. And that’s when I also started to think that perhaps in evolutionary term, we are losing lower facial height and by losing lower facial height. The only way we are going to get this TMJ joint in a stable position is restore that low facial height. So that’s where the low friction height ideas came. You know, it’s a progression of a period occlusion TMJ and then lower facial height. Yeah, yeah. And the lower fish, right? The easiest way to increase it was on adventurous patients.

[00:25:04] Yeah, yeah, that’s where that’s why it started with that. And I remember we had a we gave it a name and we added dimension. Ventures, I remember being the original, the original brand. Yeah, I remember Nick. In fact, it’s funny you say all of this because it all resonates with me. So I remember when I got there. Your son Kieran had medical problems and, you know, maybe they weren’t as acute as you first. You know, we’re worried that it would be, but it’s still there. And I remember maybe he was maybe 50 and ninety six, but that makes sense.

[00:25:42] Uh, yes. Yeah, that’s right. He’d be about that, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:48] And I remember this conversation about the dentures. And I remember you saying that, you know, if if the establishment won’t listen to me, I’m going to take it to the press and you’d hired a PR person and maybe, I don’t know, maybe six months or nine months into me being there or maybe whatever it is, something came out in the Daily Mail. That’s right. And you got flooded with patients. I’m completely flooded. And it was very instrumental in my thinking of, you know, wow, you know, it’s possible for a single man to make a difference. And then for that difference to go out into some area and it exploded. The number of people wanting to come and see you.

[00:26:40] That’s right. That’s when we then decided to move from Kent to London because I remember it was Sheila Scott who was working with us, converting us into Dental at that time. And she said, Nick, with this amount of publicity you have achieved, you don’t want to be staying here and can you ought to be in London and the centre of that so people can come and see you. And that’s when we decided to open the practise in Wimpole Street. But you’re right, when that article appeared in Daily Mail, and that’s the power of the press. I mean, the phone didn’t stop ringing for at least six months. The receptionist would put the phone down and it would ring again. Put the phone down, ring again, you know? Oh, it was just mad, but just mad. And that,

[00:27:29] You know, Nick, even when I got there, you were computerising. This NHS practise back in 96 and you know, you’ve got this sort of you’re putting it back down to your grandfather, right? Sort of the innovator who wanted to always improve things and all that. But it takes a certain amount of confidence to to do this, to say, Look, no one else has done this before, but I’m going to. And not to doubt yourself and say, Well, why has no one else done it before? And these sort of thing, I mean, this confidence that you’ve got? Were you always like that or are you confident as a kid, confident, you know, like.

[00:28:09] I think probably very focussed. And to make a decision like that, I had to keep rationalising in my mind why I wanted to do something. I didn’t think of it as being extraordinary or anything like that. It just in my own thinking, the curiosity that was right. So if that was right, I had to prove to myself that my thinking was right, and therefore it was more a question of proving to myself that my thinking was right rather than proving to anyone else or anything else. So it was just more me rather than anything else, you know, with computers and whatnot. And remember, we started having our first. My other passion was art and the art gallery. In the practise,

[00:29:03] I was going to mention how how did that come about?

[00:29:07] Well, I think it must have been a lull between my Dental technique or perhaps just before, and I was thinking, what else can I do, you know? And my passion for art was always there. You know, Fran and I would go into an exhibition. We’d walk around it, and both of us would pick up a three favourite paintings and they were always the same. The three of the two of us used to think so much alike as far as art is concerned. And then I heard that someone in Glasgow had started showing paintings in the surgery, and I said, Well, why not here? And Fran said to me, No, no, no, that was a private practise. This is a working class and it’s just practise. You can’t do that here. And I said, why not? And that’s sort of a challenge to me is something that, you know, I love challenges.

[00:30:03] Yeah, you’re the why not go in my world? You definitely. Yeah. Where did the art come from? I mean, okay, you were. You were. You were students in Edinburgh. Were you going to art things back then? Or when did that start?

[00:30:17] No, I don’t know. I think it is. When I was in primary school in India, I remember I used to I’m told I used to love our theatre, and I suppose that passion for art is sort of inbuilt in Fran and me and art architecture. We just love that. You know why? Difficult to say, but

[00:30:43] Because yeah, I, you know, I like a nice painting or whatever, but but but you had this converted barn or you saw, I guess you saw that this converted barn in Canterbury ish outside Canterbury, where it’s every single millimetre of the walls of this gigantic building had art on it. And I remember looking at it, just just besotted by the whole idea that that’s possible. A house like that size with those many paintings on it. And then I noticed the last place I came to yours. There wasn’t any art.

[00:31:20] No, because this place.

[00:31:23] What happened? Yeah. Well.

[00:31:26] This place we’re in, it’s it’s it’s like living in a glass house, you know, so all the outside walls are windows. Yeah. And therefore, to put our tenet, the art has to compete with what you’re seeing outside the windows. And that is very difficult combination to achieve in a room. You can put all that you like and you can combine things there to

[00:31:54] Complement each other so

[00:31:56] That true. But when you’re competing with nature and that nature is changing, the colours are changing. Winter colours, you get summer colours. Do you change your art to suit what’s happening outside? And that I’ve not been able to solve that. That’s a challenge for the future. How have you? How have you

[00:32:17] Managed to be so optimistic with the challenges you’ve been through? You know, with with Kiera and with all that’s happened to you in your life? You’re one of the more optimistic people that I know. You really believe in the human spirit. And you know, is it innate or did it come from experience? Are you not that person that’s got you wrong? No, you’re right.

[00:32:46] You’re right. You know, why am I so optimistic? We have this discussion sometimes. You know my my son nowadays and we discuss and and I think if you look at the world as it is now, sometimes there’s the media likes to portray doom and gloom, you know, and says, Oh, look, there’s a shortage. We are there won’t be any food in the stores and there won’t be any petrol because the shortage of this and this doom and gloom. But when you look at the civilisation as as such, we have moved so far forward, look at the good things that have happened. You know, there’s so many good things happening all the time. And although, OK, my latest challenge, I think I’ve still got another twenty five years to make. What I’m doing now is successful, you know? But it is getting tougher. But I think it will happen because as human beings, we can’t be held back. We have to move forward. That is the whole nature of civilisation as we move forward, you know, and as human beings, I think we’re at the top of our civilisation, at the top of the pyramid, and it’s sort of taking the downward slope. I think we’ll keep on moving forward and upwards that I’m happy, too optimistic to think that. And like every other civilisation, will eventually come down. I don’t think so. I think we are on the up.

[00:34:20] I feel like it’s in you, though it’s not. It’s not. It’s not like a logical thought out thing. It’s just a part of you. Maybe Fran is got her legs on the ground and you’ve got your head in the in the clouds and she keeps you grounded or whatever. But but then she’s also quite a quite an out there thinker, too. You know, it’s it’s it’s remarkable

[00:34:40] The combination of the two of us, you know, one of the things sometimes we ask is, you know, what are the important things in your life? And Mary Fran is probably being probably one of the most important things. And I think the combination of the two of us, you’re right, she does pull me down, not pull me down in the sense that she’s more grounded than me, but between the two of us, we are not afraid of taking challenges. Yeah, definitely. But it’s nice to have someone like Fran who can be more grounded. And just when you think you’re going too far ahead, you know you got pulled back a little and say, No, no, no, just a minute. Yeah, for instance, we might have to move again now, you know, we’ve moved so many times and we’ll probably have to move once again. Yeah, well, not once, but quite a few more times, I think in the next 20 years, but in the short term, we might have to move again now, you know? And Fran is the one who’s saying, Look, if that’s got to be done, you’ve got to be prepared for it, you know, and she’s well, grounded. She brings me down and I said, No, no, no, no, this is going to be huge and this is going to be bigger, you know? But no, you’ve got to be realistic as well. And Fran is the realist in our relationship.

[00:36:06] Yeah, I have. I have. I have Carla and in on the work side, Sanjeet, who does that job for me, for me. But Nick, talk me through the evolution of or lift from you said from the from the pivot appliance, we went to the full denture part. Then you went to London and then for a while, there you. You are picking a full mouth rehabs at new increased dementia, a vertical dimension. That’s right.

[00:36:32] That’s right.

[00:36:33] And then it went to this appliance. Yeah, yeah. Just talk me through that, that sort of evidence.

[00:36:39] So when we move to Whimpered Street and it was basically going to be a dental practise, you know? And eventually the denture patients fizzle down, it’s slowed down a bit. And the PR company I was working with, they said, Can’t you do this for people with their own teeth? And I said, Well, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be able to do it. It just means it’ll be very invasive. And so I thought to myself, I said, if people have already got a lot of missing teeth, they could make partials at an increased vertical and crown the existing ones. So I said, Yeah, yeah, we can do it, you know? So he got an article published saying that Dr Nick Mahindra can do this Dental facelift technique now for people with their own teeth if if they’ve got more than, I think the press wanted a number, you know, and more than 10 missing teeth or something like that, you know? So that was my road onto full mouth reconstruction. And then I said, Look, if I’m doing this now for people who’ve got their own teeth, why can’t we do a full mouth reconstruction too? So the next stage was people. I had a patient who was a severe class to his class, too. And when you increase their vertical with the pivot of plants, the jaw tends to come forward. So it’s sort of being a class to you now they become class one.

[00:38:11] And then if you could crown those teeth and restore them, they’d remain in class one. So this young girl, she must have been in her 30s. She wanted me to do a full mouth reconstruction at that new vertical, so she wouldn’t have that to the chin anymore. And I said to her, Look, you can do orthodontics and whatnot, you know? And she said, No, I want you to do this. And I was very keen at that time to show that this could be done, you know? So I went ahead and did it. But one of the problems that occurs is that to restore the occlusion to the balance occlusion with canine guidance or something like that is not always possible because sometimes the teeth are half unit, so you can’t get accustomed to foster relationship. So I had to think very hard, should I be doing this? And I said, why not look at if you can teach the patient not to pair a function and look at the number of people that you see in daily life in dentistry who have not got the perfect occlusion and then manage life perfectly normally? And having restored a person to an attractive face from a class two to a class one, I said if I made sure that it didn’t pair a function, it didn’t really matter whether I’ve got the perfect conclusion or not for these people.

[00:39:40] But how did you come across the red lines? You know, because we know that the occlusion is an adaptive thing. We know after Ortho Invisalign, you take these two things out of the mouth and it all jiggles together, right? So we accept that. But there are red lines you can’t cross. How did you? Did you just cross some of those red lines and find out the hard way?

[00:40:01] Yep. Because in those days, you know, this is one of the things about innovation is you can’t go read in a book. No, what’s the next thing to do? So you have to play each moment as it comes and face the challenges. One of the biggest challenge was trying to get technicians to do what I wanted them to do. They were used to doing balance occlusion. And I remember I had a German technician. She was working on a full case for me. And halfway through the case, she says, Nick, your work is giving me so much headaches. I can’t go for it. And in the middle of the case, she stopped and said, I’m not doing anymore. So I had to find another technician who could carry on from there. It was hell. But eventually, what I started noticing was that why am I restoring these people, giving them full mouth reconstruction to improve their looks? And I found that using the pivot appliance alone before doing anything to the teeth was doing that as well. I had a girl come in again in her 30s.

[00:41:12] What do you put that down to? Do you put that down to the muscle fibres, changing direction and and reprogramming reprogramming?

[00:41:22] Now this particular girl, she was a. Suitcases, well, very refrigerated case, and when she came into the surgery, she says, I know what you’re doing, Dr. Mahendra. And I said, What is that? And she says, I always not let my teeth touch. I keep a very big freeway space so that my profile looks better. So I said, Well, if you know that, what do you want me to do? You know, you have achieved what I do. She says, No, no, no, I want you to go ahead. So I said, OK, what I’ll do is this was when I was doing or left. So I said, I’ll give you the little plants and we’ll see what it does for you. And it made her profile look even better. Her features started to look better as well. And then she said to me, No, now I want you to do me full mouth reconstruction of this vertical height. And I realised that this wasn’t quite the right thing to do because of even when you restore them to that height, they forget what they looked like. Then they start functioning and then you get all sorts of problems, you know? So I said to her, No. And for a year, we kept on arguing. I’d say no, and she’d say, no, I understand everything. Just please do it. And after a year, I said to her, OK, I’ll do this for you. But luckily for me, she was great and a mum got ill and she had to go back to Greece. I didn’t have to do that, you know? Yeah, and that was the last full mouth reconstruction that I ever did. After that, it was just a relief because.

[00:43:03] Describe describe for someone who’s never seen it before. What is your lift appliance look like? What’s the process for the patient or for the user now? We’re talking users more than patients. What’s the process? How long does it take or do they go through and what are the benefits?

[00:43:18] All right. The only appliance is really basically the pivot appliance. But remember the pivot appliance? You had to take impressions of the mouth. Send them to the technician. He’d give you a blank plate to fit on the bottom plate. And then you had to build up the pivot hard and then grind down, so you got just one contact.

[00:43:42] It’s quite what a pivot is, as all

[00:43:44] The pivots are two blocks on the side of the pliers added an increased vertical. And we used to use the swallowing technique to determine the vertical height. And so eventually, when the pivot appliance is in the mouth, the only contact that occurs is between the upper molar and the top of the pivot. So you just got one contact on each side. Yeah. There’s no other contact at all. And eventually, we replaced the technicians bit by making the fitting side in a thermoplastic material like, Oh my god.

[00:44:25] So you boil them bite kind of thing.

[00:44:27] Yeah, yeah. So at the moment.

[00:44:30] So how would they work for?

[00:44:32] Well, again, this was a remember for the Dental facelift technique. I used to establish the vertical height. I used to get the patients to wear the pivot applied for 16 hours, 17 hours, even twenty four hours on the densification, the patients because we built the pivot on the dentures and then restore them to that height. So initially I thought, Oh, they must have to wear it for a very long period to be able to get these improvements to the face. And then I had a husband and wife who were having the relief treatment, and the husband was getting a very good result, wearing it for 16 hours or something like that. And the wife wore the plans for one night and then wouldn’t wear it again, she said. It gave me the most severe headache I’ve ever had. You know, I’m not going to be this appliance at all, you know? Yeah. And at that time, my thinking was starting to change because as light with exercise, you know, you don’t have to do too much exercise to get the benefit. So I said to her, how much are you prepared to wear the plants? And she said at the most half an hour a day. And I said, OK, really it half an hour a day and let’s see what results you get. And she got even a better result than her husband. So then I said, if half an hour a day can do it, what is the minimum that a person has to wear it to get these rejuvenating effect? And the conclusion I came to that you only had to wear it every third day, and that is the regime now.

[00:46:11] And we were seeing Nic, we were seeing. I remember looking, I remember having dinner with you and you telling me I’m seeing more than just the facial lines and angles being corrected. I’m seeing just brighter patients, brighter eyes, better skin and all of this. And I remember being sceptical to tell you the truth when you when you first mentioned it. But then I remember running through with you some of your photos of patients, and one thing that you did very, very well was to document with, you know, that everything the same in the right position, the right lighting or everything standardised it was that you were definitely a pioneer in the photography part of it. But I remember I remember reviewing some of the photos with you, some of your longer term patients and literally seeing their skin improve. That’s right. And I remember you saying something about circulation or something, but in a way the way I the way I thought about it, even though I don’t understand this is, you know, in yoga, they talk about gee and energy cycles within a body and so forth. And how in that collapsing facial situation, how that can affect more than just a bone to bone contact and the way the way we’ve talked to think about it, that’s where are you? Where are you now with that? Wait, wait. Well, now we’ve had the third

[00:47:34] Leaders thinking we got I started working with Innovate UK and one of the guys down there put me in touch with the company, a multinational company, and they said they will do the research for me into this clients. And they were going to look at anti-ageing and anti-inflammatory biomarkers that circulate. And I think wearing this appliance for these very short periods will improve your immune system, your anti inflammatory biomarkers, anti ageing biomarkers. All these will improve. What’s the end result of it? Well, there’s more circulation. There’s more growth factors that are repairing the damage done by the ageing process. But not only that, but the posture is improving. The hat goes back on the shoulders, the shoulders go back, tummy gets flatter, so you get a much more vertical posture, which means increased circulation to the head and neck. But all this again needs to be put into to my own way of thinking in the scientific proof.

[00:48:47] Yeah, my my key question is, is it because you want to convince others or is it that you want to find out for yourself? Is it both?

[00:48:55] Well, when you open a new door, right, you go into this through, you find so many more new doors appearing. Yeah. You know, and that is my oh has been my ambition. But I realised that perhaps to achieve that, the commercial side of life has to come into effect as well. You can’t, as a single person, I can’t do the research. Well, what happened with the Innovate UK? Although they, this multinational, said they’ll do the research for me, but the research was going to cost so much that Innovate UK said, Oh no, no, no, we don’t fund research that is done outside the UK. Now this multinational has offices in the UK as well. So that was just an excuse, you know? So I realise now perhaps a little bit late that perhaps this opening up of new doors is too ideological and it’ll happen, but perhaps not in my lifetime. But what I can do in my lifetime is try to make it the if successful and hopefully by making it successful, those those can be opened faster.

[00:50:16] Yeah, yeah. Agreed. I mean, look, Nick, in my world, there’s there’s people selling teeth, whitening lights with non peroxide gels and selling loads of them selling loads and loads of them. Now those those guys I used to, I used to laugh at them and think, you know what, charlatans, but that those guys turned over $100 million last year. Yeah. So now if they if they turn their hundred million dollars in the right direction, yeah, they they might they might actually improve. Like, innovate, actually innovate something. I’m not telling you to do that. I know you would never do that right. But but the two do go hand-in-hand even in universities next year. Funding funding is a massive part of professors lives.

[00:51:06] This is what I’m finding, what I’m finding. This is true nowadays. Research costs so much. Yeah, I said this was the multinational. I mean, I eventually got Oxford University and there was someone in Birmingham University, and she said she’d support me with research grants. So we applied for another research grant. But again then the competition from people looking for research funding is so great that to give that funding to one individual is just a coup in Britain. We are not good at innovation or at least making a very good at innovating, but not making it into a commercial success. It’s the Americans who take the risks. Yeah, and move forward, you know, and wish I’d been in America and I think this would have.

[00:52:03] You’re right. You’re right. In America, there is that culture. In Israel, there is that culture of commercialising breakthroughs. If you like Nick, we ask everyone on this podcast this question, what would you say is your biggest clinical error?

[00:52:21] Biggest critical error, I don’t think. You know, there’s a question of in hindsight, you can go back and say, I wish I had done something differently. Yeah, but I don’t think at the time when I took those decisions, there’s anything that I regret.

[00:52:41] I don’t mean by regret. But you know, you know, you learn a lot by your mistakes in life. And and so, you know, where this question comes from is from a book called Black Box Thinking, which is about plane crashes when a plane crashes, that everyone opens up everything and says, what happened? Not not whose fault was it, but how do we stop this ever happening again? Whereas in medicine, if a mistake happens, everyone covers it up. In essence, because in medicine, we end up pointing the finger at one person or one one thing. And so you don’t learn by my mistakes and I don’t learn by your mistakes because we’re so busy hiding our mistakes. So, so what? The reason for the question is, can we share some errors? We’ve all make their errors.

[00:53:33] Yeah, I think, yeah, this is a difficult one, really. As I say, I hope dentistry is full of errors. You know, I was looking at a case on some forum and they had this 62 year old who had a lateral that was very crooked, you know, it was overcrowded and pushed out of the way. And at 62 years, she comes and looks to have this corrected. Oh, and the discussion was should be veneer. It should be granted. It should be

[00:54:11] Also

[00:54:12] On what should be do orthodontics and everyone saying that. And then so perhaps that is the regret that I do have that instead of just treating the tooth. Why is this 62 year rule at her age suddenly got concerned about this tooth

[00:54:31] Psychologically because he’s got a new boyfriend?

[00:54:34] Yeah. What’s happened to her is she suddenly divorced. Her husband died so she come into money. Oh, what is the reason behind it? And I think I wish I treated people as people rather than looking in their mouths.

[00:54:53] Oh, well, you were very good at that, I seem to remember.

[00:54:56] Well, I think Fran helped me to do that. Know I was a dentist looking in the mouth and was the

[00:55:03] One who was right. That’s right, because she worked with me because often you just by its very nature, you’d attract patients who, I mean, let’s say their problem was as much psychological as it was clinical sometimes. That’s right, the nature of TMJ work tends to be that the nature of West End tends to be that, doesn’t it? You tend to. It tends to funnel the difficult patients into that area. But I remember a huge part of your work was just a psychological part of managing these patients and friends.

[00:55:39] I wish I paid more attention to that, even in the days when I was first had my first practise in South Wales. You know, we must treat people, not the yeah, people as people and not as modes, you know, all over.

[00:55:57] What was your darkest moment?

[00:55:59] Darkest moment?

[00:56:01] No. Difficult to ask an optimist this question?

[00:56:04] Yeah, there’s quite a few that have been. And one was when Ken was about, Oh, he must have been about two and a half, and he was being treated in Great Ormond Street and they were going to get his blood potassium up and they were doing everything they could and they just the pedestrian level would not go up. And you knew by the morning if they had not managed to receive it, you know, then that was even live in the next day. And at about four o’clock in the morning, I remember walking down in the streets of London and saying, Oh, what shall we do now, you know? And I came back at about six and I was waiting in the waiting room. There used to be a little waiting room and suddenly a big. Her, I think, came out of here and surgery. And all the doctors had got his latest reading and finally, they’d managed to get the blood chemistry right. You know, that was probably my one of the darkest moments because I yeah, yeah, probably was.

[00:57:15] Was there more going on in your life that made it dark? You know, obviously sick child on that sort of level would be a dark moment for anyone. But what was happening outside of Kieren during that period where you running around practise and running then?

[00:57:32] Yeah, yeah, I think so. There were lots of things going on in my mind at that time, you know, but probably that was the darkest moment, but they’re always in life. There are times when you think, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:57:51] It’s difficult, difficult asking an optimist about his darkest moment, so. So going forwards, Nick? Yeah. If you had to make a bet. On how? People are going to think about the way they look and feel, because much of what you do is kind of opposite to injections and botox and, you know, obviously facelifts themselves actual surgical procedures. You’re more on this sort of, I would say, contemporary way of thinking about overall health and and balance as opposed to, you know, the way the facial aesthetics is at the moment is, you know, I feel like I would never stick a needle in my face with poison in it. I would never do it. I mean, but but your thing, I might do that. I might. If it’s realigning me, you know, realigning my face, I might do that.

[00:58:48] And I think what I’d like to be able to show is that this can happen so quickly. Yeah. You know, within minutes of wearing the plants, changes start to happen. The posture starts to improves. Growth factors are released. Blood circulation is

[00:59:13] Faces look younger, though, right?

[00:59:15] Yeah, well, we’ve got, you know, we’ve got the 16 year case histories now, Frances, that she’s been using it for, I think, 15 or 16 years. Well. And look at when you look at them now and you look at their age and you say, well, there’s something happening, you know, for that age, for them to be looking so good. Yeah. And I put it down to using this sort of lift, you know, and I think the more we have people using it on a long term basis, not only will they look better, but I think they will also feel better, you know? Did I tell you, perhaps this is something you may not want to include, but recently when I fell down and fractured my skull?

[01:00:06] Yeah, yeah, you did.

[01:00:07] I used the list for its anti-inflammatory effect. If in the end, the healing occurred so fast by me using lower left, but I had to use it for very, very short periods, you know, for about a minute or two at the most, because after that, the increased circulation would make the wound healing more difficult. But I use it, and I’m sure that helped me to recover from that fractured skull within about, I don’t know, a few weeks I was back at work working on the computer again. You know,

[01:00:45] You were so you. I remember when you guys were going to get a stand at the Dental show in Cologne. The ideas? Yeah, I remember the the cold mess people saying, No, this isn’t dentistry. So we can’t we can’t put this into the show. That’s right. And then on the other hand, you must have people in the skincare world and the and whatever Botox while saying, this is dentistry.

[01:01:12] Exactly, exactly.

[01:01:13] Tell me about that. Tell me about the, you know, that tension and and that and now I think, you know, the most interesting idea is you’re going to go direct to consumer with this, right? You don’t have to put it, pigeonhole it into whether it’s skincare, Dental or anything, you’re going for that, right?

[01:01:32] Yeah, I think that is the way. But what’s happened in going direct to the public is we are working on a subscription model, which will be that people have to pay a very minimal amount, but we’ll monitor them over the years. So if they subscribe to us, we will make sure that we look after them for the next year or two years or three years, or however long they want to keep the subscription because this is a long term result that they’re looking for, not just a very quick fix, mind you. Having said that, I’ve seen results after 10 minutes or even after two weeks, which are quite dramatic. So I think commercialising it with a subscription model may prove to be the better way forward. Recently, a lot of appliances have come on the scene, which are supposed to be like exercising appliances. You know, the

[01:02:34] Face angel or something?

[01:02:36] Yeah, yeah. But these can be so dangerous because if your practise and your muscles are already exhausted, the last thing you ought to be doing is making them even worse by chewing on gum or chewing on one of these jaw sizes or the other things. But they have in the public’s eye. They think of the oral gift as another one of these exercise

[01:03:04] Exercise machine

[01:03:05] Appliances, you know? And this is why by making this subscription model, we can educate them as we go along.

[01:03:14] You know, Nick, one thing I’ve noticed is that in the same way as a podcast, find its own audience. Yeah, like me, and you don’t have to sit here and worry about who’s going to listen to this. Yeah, the podcast will find its own audience. It’s just the way it works, you know, but in the same way, a product tends to find its own classification. So and sometimes that classification is different to the one that you put put on it. So, you know, as an example, I could bring out a toothpaste that’s nano hydroxy appetite sensitivity toothpaste. Yeah, that’s that’s what it is in my head. It’s it’s a sensitivity toothpaste. But when it goes into the market, depending on what the market’s, you know, the trends of the market, the people buying it, thinking of it as an enamel regenerator.

[01:04:08] And okay,

[01:04:09] Now I can hit my head on the wall and say, look, on the microscopic level, it doesn’t regenerate enamel. But because there’s this other toothpaste, you know, it’s called regenerate, right? This is not the same ingredient. Same everything. They’re actually saying the market’s now thinking that way. Yeah, right. So now what do I do? Do I do? I switch my marketing towards that because that’s the the current trend? Or do I carry on saying what I’m saying? My point is it doesn’t. I wouldn’t get yourself over bothered with whether or not someone calls this thing an exercise machine or an anti-aging machine or whatever, because the results will speak to the to the individual in their own way.

[01:04:54] That’s right.

[01:04:55] That’s right. For someone who’s never seen these results, you should have a look. Is it or live dot com or is it or Instagram? Where is it? Where can someone see results

[01:05:05] Or live dot com

[01:05:07] Or left? Because we’ve been talking about it because I’ve known Nick for 30. Years or something, 25 years. You know, it just goes without saying for me, but you have to look at some of the before and after the results of the faces and and it’s just very obvious that this is something that we need to look at further. Nick, we tend to end these things with the same question every time. And the question is, you’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your loved ones around you. You only give them three pieces of advice.

[01:05:44] I think the most important advice is follow your gut instinct, you know, follow what you believe in. Usually it is right. It may not be right in this commercial world that we live in, but I don’t think as a human being, you is very difficult to Payman, very difficult. My basic instinct would be to say to anyone is to follow your own instinct and believe in yourself. You know, you are the most important person to you. There’s no one more important than you to you, and therefore you have to believe in yourself and you’ve got to think it out. Be logical, but believe in yourself. That’s one. You don’t have to believe in yourself. Ok, let me put on France head on and be realistic as well. Don’t become too. You know,

[01:06:48] This doesn’t sound like you at Solanki. No, but I think

[01:06:52] You have to. You live in a real world, so you can’t ignore it, you know, and therefore you need to have a friend beside you if you haven’t got a friend besides you, you know.

[01:07:08] Ok? And the third one? The third one. The third one. Follow your heart. Get a Fran. Yeah.

[01:07:15] And the third one is enjoy life.

[01:07:19] Mm-hmm. You know,

[01:07:21] Don’t have regrets. Just enjoy life.

[01:07:24] You know, it’s surprising how few people say that one. I mean, a lot do, but a lot don’t. I think that one for granted. And then these are Prav final questions. He’s not with us, but I would just to just to give him the the bigger. You’ve got one month to go. You’ve got your health, but you know, you’ve got one month to go. What do you do in that month?

[01:07:46] I don’t think I’d do anything different.

[01:07:48] Come off it. I’ll do it. Go, go, go. You got an answer answer.

[01:07:58] I really do. I think if you followed your philosophy of believing in yourself, being a realist and whatnot, I don’t think enjoying your life in one month, you’re not going to change the world but enjoy what you’re doing in that month, you know?

[01:08:17] Yeah. And his final final question is, how would you like to be remembered? What would you like people to say about Nick Mahindra, what was he like? Well, he was what?

[01:08:30] What do I want my grandchildren to think of?

[01:08:34] Well, the well,

[01:08:35] Yeah, obviously it’s got to be on the left

[01:08:42] Side. It’s going to be on the left. I like that, nick that shows some commitment to the to the product. Yeah. Well, it’s been absolutely lovely having you. Yeah. And I’m I’m sure we’ll be seeing each other soon. Hopefully, this lockdown calms down. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. Bye, Payman.

[01:09:12] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:09:23] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:09:28] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.