Month: November 2023

Speaker1: And I’m glad that it’s now probably more accepted to go outside the curriculum and get some learning through mini smile makeover or other means. Because with clinical exposure reducing since I left and since you left, dentists coming out are not as experienced with all the procedures, so they have to do more learning when it comes to private education, shadowing, reading. So if they can do that early whilst they’re in dental school, in this protected environment it’s all the better.

Speaker2: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sahil Patel onto the podcast. So he a young dentist who’s making lots of waves from where I can see he’s just got accredited at the OECD, which [00:01:00] I saw, which is a massive achievement. Having watched Dipesh Parliament go through that process as a what a massive achievement that is. So congratulations on that. So he’s opened his own practice in the West End, Marylebone Smile Clinic Clinic, Melbourne Smile Clinic recently, where he’s focusing on aesthetic and restorative dentistry. I actually was in the lift at the OECD and a couple of the examiners were asking too, so how was the Hills work? And there was a [00:01:30] knowing nod. And in that lift, knowing little knowing nod saying, you know, it was it was excellent work and we could see your work online. The other thing so he has done a lot of is, you know, just get himself out there and educate the public on, you know, all the different parts of dentistry. But this time, you know, our audience is mainly dentists. So maybe a bit different to the focus you’ve had. Thanks a lot for coming in for this.

Speaker1: Thanks, Payman. Thanks very much for having [00:02:00] me on. And the comment about the lift I haven’t heard about, and I thought it would be a different answer because they gave me a specially a hard time during the viva, and I’ve been telling stories about it since. I enjoyed it a lot. I wish there was a recording of it, because such useful debates and discussions amongst very knowledgeable people asking me questions about cases. I found it helpful and yeah, stressful.

Speaker3: So take us back. [00:02:30] Give me. Give me your backstory. Sahil. As a kid, where did you grow up? When was the first time dentistry came on your radar?

Speaker1: Grew up in north London, and dentistry came up relatively late in the thought cycle or application cycle. When kids go through lower sixth form and are asked, what do you want to do at university? I was encouraged to do medicine. I looked around me. Lots of my friends. My older brother had gone to medical school. Yeah. Me too. And one [00:03:00] thing I asked myself at that immature age was, how do I want to spend my time outside of work and inside work? And I always knew I had interests outside of dentistry. So quite selfishly, at the time, I thought, I’m being told I’m good at biology. I like working with people, but also would like to do things at my own time as well. Dentistry seemed to allow for that, or at least on the face of it. And those were the core reasons why it appealed to me. There was no innate passion for teeth, I don’t think. I don’t think anyone has that.

Speaker3: I [00:03:30] asked this question a lot. Right. And you do get there tends to be three answers to it. One is kind of the one you gave late, being sort of soberly looking at how you want your career to turn out. There is another one which is I had a great experience at the dentist myself, and from then I decided to be a dentist, which is a lovely story, right? Which means people are treating people well. But then sometimes you do get these people who say, I want to be a dentist since I was five years old. It’s rare. I find that.

Speaker1: Hard to hard to relate to because [00:04:00] many people ask me to this day, why would you want to spend your time looking in people’s mouths? You know, on the face of it, it seems like quite a squeamish thing to do. So at a young age, having a passion for it or innate passion for teeth. It’s exceptionally rare for me. That came a lot later. Was there anything.

Speaker3: Else on your radar apart from medicine, dentistry? When were you thinking maybe, I don’t know, engineering or law? Some some other angle in another life?

Speaker1: I would love to have gone into film production. Oh, really? [00:04:30] In another life, I would have loved to have tried to become a professional performer in some way. I did a lot of dance through university and through school. I continued to this day and Hollywood used to be Bollywood house and locking through university and then competing in Latin and ballroom through university. So that’s what I do. More recently, a couple of colleagues I know did go pro and you know, I live vicariously through them. It’s a tough life, but also an amazing and very different life to clinical [00:05:00] dentistry. So those are the two things I would fantasise about.

Speaker3: So performing. So that really puts it into sort of focus that like watching your social media, how comfortable you are. And I remember looking at it when you started really going in all in on it. I remember thinking, these youngsters are just so comfortable in front of a camera, you know, they just find it so easy. But were you lots of plays and school plays and that sort of thing as well as you were growing up?

Speaker1: No, I’ve actually [00:05:30] never been into acting or singing or dancing specifically. Dance. Yeah. Which has an element of acting to it. Yeah, but coming to recording yourself on camera, I didn’t think of it so much as performing and it didn’t. Come naturally to me. Although you said it does.

Speaker3: Seems like it does.

Speaker1: I think having confidence in what I knew and what I was discussing seemed to help, because it didn’t require me to rehearse lines. None of the videos I do.

Speaker3: Was it ad lib?

Speaker1: 95% of it. [00:06:00]

Speaker3: Oh, that’s so interesting. Sam Jethwa said the same thing to me and I couldn’t believe it, man. I was like, Jesus. Even the bigger achievement.

Speaker1: People can see very quickly. When you’ve rehearsed something, you can see through it. People know when it’s not authentically you. It’s true. And I was very aware of that when I did try to write something out that was, let’s say, complicated. You look at, you watch yourself back and you think it doesn’t look genuine and you wouldn’t buy it. And I think when it comes to health care, people are looking for relatability. Very true. They could see if you’re not being [00:06:30] truthful in that moment just through body language. So I was very aware of that. And I think if it doesn’t, usually when if it doesn’t come through in the first or second take, it’s not going to be better than that.

Speaker3: It’s funny because there’s a camera on right now, isn’t there? And somehow I can ignore it because I feel like we are just chatting and then it happens to be recorded. Whereas if I’m standing in front of the phone, it’s not just me. Maybe that’s the way to think of it. And maybe that’ll be the the my answer to my problem. But [00:07:00] I can’t talk to the camera as I hate it. Completely hate it.

Speaker1: I had a little bit of the same issue because you’re looking into a lens which is not looking back at you. Yeah, exactly. But right now I’m looking at you exactly. When you look at a lens, you’re just seeing a very small reflection of yourself, and there’s no one there. And I’ve had to break that down by repetition. And I think that’s probably how most people do. You then become more related to the camera, which is an odd expression, but these days I don’t think of it much.

Speaker3: Well, I can see that you do look comfortable now. [00:07:30] So tell me, you decided to go for dentistry. Was there a thought process of I’m definitely leaving London for university or what? How did you end up in Bristol? Why Bristol?

Speaker1: It was the only university that gave me an offer. Yeah. I desperately wanted to go to King’s College because all my friends were going there. Yeah, it has a good reputation, especially amongst secondary schools. Yeah. I was really upset to go to Bristol. I was torn and I was at the time I was childishly. [00:08:00]

Speaker3: Though now, in retrospect.

Speaker1: Very much so. I think as a teenager growing up in north London, you think you.

Speaker3: Know it all.

Speaker1: And the world revolves around London, outside the M25. Nothing exists. And I was of that mindset and foolishly, it was the best thing I could have done to separate from a circle that I knew very well and find out that actually, outside London, there are all sorts of worlds which are just as good, if not better. And I threw myself into Bristol life, and it took a couple of years to actually [00:08:30] become settled and feel like it was more comfortable there than I was at home. And afterwards I didn’t want to leave, and I was really sad to leave after five years, just as torn to leave and go to a new, new place, which was even remote area. Cool. Yeah.

Speaker3: To get to. I adore Bristol. I love Bristol, it’s one of the towns in the UK that I could live in. Me too. I studied in Cardiff and we used to visit Bristol sometimes for whatever [00:09:00] it was. But I love Bristol so much. I visit Alfonso and the Touraj and Richard Field and it’s a great town and there’s great restaurants, great people, great people. So, okay. How were you as a as a dental student? Were you top of your class or not?

Speaker1: No, I would say I was average right in the middle. As time went on, I became disillusioned with dentistry. In the first three years, I think. I didn’t know if it was something that I enjoyed. [00:09:30] I knew there was an academic component, which you’re trained just to go through the phases of that, and then you start to see patients and you start to realise what the job and the task really entails. And I struggled. I was not particularly good with the practical learning of my hands. I was I was lagging behind and a couple of colleagues who I stay in touch with today, the three of us were comparing notes as to how bad we were because we were just rocking right at the bottom. And [00:10:00] as time went on, I had some influence from a couple of dentists. You may know Nick Claydon, he has a practice in Cardiff. He made an impression on me early on and I was lucky enough to go and visit his practice, and that changed my mindset as to what dentistry could be. It was a stark contrast to how the dental hospital ran things, and something in that gave me a lot of motivation to explore what’s outside of the dental school. And he actually was the first one who pointed me towards the British Academy of [00:10:30] Aesthetic Dentistry, and he just said the name and I didn’t know what it was. And that academy is not particularly well known compared to the BCD, which you mentioned earlier. And then from there I met Richard Field and became a student rep. All of that, and that gave me a lot of motivation to become quite rebellious as a student in the final clinical years. I was trying to break out of it early, I’d say, which is good and bad, but.

Speaker3: So you’re saying that Nick sort of inspired you to go after excellence, whereas the dental school [00:11:00] didn’t?

Speaker1: Nick encouraged a patient journey and he showed me that journey from his practice. What happens when the patient walks through the door, sees him, sees the treatment coordinator, and then leaves with a treatment plan? I’d never seen that in my life. As a student, you’re you’re arranging the appointments. You’re trying just to get them to a point where you can have a treatment plan that you can actually.

Speaker3: The experience side of it kind of seduced you, that you want to create the best experience for the patient.

Speaker1: Yes. And until then, I felt dentistry was [00:11:30] quite barbaric in the, in the methods we’re using. And I felt it’s just quite aggressive and it didn’t seem very pleasant for the patient. And he made it seem so pleasant in his practice, the way he designed it, the workflow. He had a lot of chairside CAD cam never seen that before. When you see that for the first time, I think everyone is very, very impressed. Yeah. You see a cerec machine for the first time, or you see a scanner for the first time and you’re and, you know, you go back to our dental schools and we’re mucking around with silicones and things.

Speaker3: What did [00:12:00] you call it for 2015? And there was no mention of scanning or anything. I suppose scanning wasn’t what it is today. Well, it’s.

Speaker1: Interesting since seeing Nick use Chairside cad cam, I went to go I went to the lab in Bristol and I asked them about this and they said, yeah, we’ve got a machine, but no one uses it apart from our head technician for some some inlays and onlays and he showed me it. It was a red cam from 2002, gathering dust in the corner. And he used it every so often. Not on not [00:12:30] on technician. Technician used it kind of in the lab setting too. Never, never, never scanning a patient. And I did a lot of research at that point. And I got what I would call obsessed by the aim of using this machine on a patient as it was intended. I must have read so much stuff on Cerec, doctors from Scottsdale, all those guys, and I just searched for a case that I could do this on and tried to get competent with something that no one would teach me. So I got models, I prepared models, I did it on a model. [00:13:00] I showed the technician. The technician took me under his wing and actually gave me advice on what to do. I found a case in fourth year and we did it. Three hours start to finish and only from preparation to fit. It caused a lot of upset in the dental school because it had never been done.

Speaker3: You haven’t passed it by anyone?

Speaker1: No. Well, I’d passed it by people, but it just never been done before. And people were just certain people were understandably confused as to why a dental student is calling [00:13:30] the shots. And in hindsight, I can see why I don’t have a license. That being said, I’m being supervised by dentists, so I still I still feel it was okay and clinically it was the right treatment for that. But that was that was a great moment. And then I did it again before graduating. And then unfortunately, I think think didn’t manage to pass on that to anyone else because the barriers are just so high when you’re a dental student. But all of that led to all sorts of different things, such as clinical photography. Richard was guiding me quite a lot at that stage.

Speaker3: So [00:14:00] you were in touch with Richard Field as a student because of the student rep situation? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: Richard was just recently having been a student rep and he was recruiting for student reps, I believe, in Cardiff, in Bristol, and I remember at the time you’d have to write a short application. And Richard being the relatively intense guy that he is, I remember having a conversation with him and he mentioned a few things. I just never heard of things like deep margin, elevation and as a fourth [00:14:30] year student at the time, completely alien to me. Then I started reading about them and I realised there’s a whole world of information, techniques, clinical teachers who are far, far beyond the UK and the UK is playing catch up and lagging behind. That was what I felt then. I feel that now.

Speaker3: So and you were accessing these people on social know or did you go on courses abroad or what did you do.

Speaker1: Courses, a lot of reading of literature, a lot of [00:15:00] shadowing of dentists. I found didactic learning was helpful for giving background, but for me, seeing what people do chairside made me confident enough to actually do it. And one thing I noticed was some clinical teachers do slightly different things on a training course, or they teach different things versus chairside. And particularly with composite resin bonding, so many techniques out there, some people actually are more pragmatic with a patient versus in teaching where you’re learning Floss ties, let’s say technical gold standard. Yes. [00:15:30] Then when you have the cold face with a patient, you may do different things.

Speaker3: And so how did you go about asking people if you could shadow them, literally DMing them, or how was it? I mean, because in my day, shadowing people wasn’t really a thing. Whereas I spoke to some dental students and they were saying, yeah, any time I get a minute off, I go and nurse for a senior student or or shadow a lab, go to a lab and just watch a technician building. [00:16:00] Building a. Lab work, which is like it sounds amazing education. But when I was a third year dental student, you wouldn’t have caught me in a lie. The thought didn’t even cross my mind, let alone doing it. So tell me about that. That shadowing process where you pick picking people you really respected a lot, and just directly asking them if you could shadow, was that it? Yes.

Speaker1: The first one was Nick Layden. He gave us a lecture on oral hygiene instruction as think second or third years, and I dropped [00:16:30] him an email to really say thank you for the lecture. And he did talk about his practice during the lecture. And I thought if he was willing to allow me to shadow him, that would be great. I was just intrigued. At that stage, I didn’t realise I would learn so much. And he kindly said yes. And I think from his point of view as a referral clinic, it made sense as well because I have referred patients to to his clinic since then. So I think it was a win win there. When it comes to being post qualified, it’s a little bit more complicated because I think a cold [00:17:00] or a cold email probably will land flat because there’s no particular reason dentists would would allow it, because there are complicating factors and having another clinician in the room, it can it can cause patients to feel as if the dentist is being supervised, depending on the age difference between you two. What I tend tended to do, I think if I had a pre-existing, even a relationship with that dentist, such as if I’d seen them on a course, met them socially, or conference conference. And at Bard when I went, I went to that as [00:17:30] a 50th student, and I met so many dentists who were significantly senior to me, and they all seemed eager to pass on what they’d learned to someone who’s the youngest there by ten years. And I’m thankful for that because many people said yes, the majority said yes. People such as Jason Smith’s and Teju Manku, Mark Hughes, all these people. I learned plenty from Chairside.

Speaker3: Wow.

Speaker1: And my approach. And how long were.

Speaker3: You shadowing each of these guys?

Speaker1: Probably varies from 2 to 10 [00:18:00] days.

Speaker4: Wow.

Speaker1: And, you know, at the upper end of that, if you if you shadow someone for ten clinical days, that’s a lot of clinical dentistry. You’ll see and you’ll see a lot of different approaches and complications. And it’s interesting to see again.

Speaker3: Bloody good point about being as as a dental student getting as much sort of, you know, exposure to conferences, meeting people, going by the way, we do this for many spa makeover. We let students come for free. Okay. [00:18:30] It’s almost for me. It’s almost like a like a laboratory rat situation. I want to know what happens to these people. There’s one in particular. I got him in the first year of dental school. Wanted to know. I wanted to know what would happen. So on the hands on in the first year of dental school and unfortunately, unfortunately, he was holding the composite gun upside down and stuff and you realise, you know how much you actually everyone in the room does know. Whereas usually when you’re teaching you’re thinking, oh, well, [00:19:00] I’ve got to teach all this new stuff to people. But he’s gone on to do, he’s in his fourth year now, so he’s gone on to do a lot.

Speaker1: And as he stuck with the mini saw makeover group.

Speaker3: I’m just trying to expose him to as much stuff as possible just to see what would happen. Yeah, okay. But anyway, the guys have come and watched. They’ve been firstly keen, taking notes, asking questions, meeting people and there’s pleasure in it, man. There’s pleasure in in propelling people forward. You know paying [00:19:30] it back. I mean you must be getting people asking you now right?

Speaker1: I do and how do you handle it? Just like you, I, I like to give it back as well. Yeah. And most cases I say yes and I say most because the only situations which can be problematic is certain personality types who may not wish to have other people in the room, even if they are a dentist. Also, as a young, younger dentist with a young dentist in the room, sometimes that can be a [00:20:00] miscommunication as to who is watching who and who is actually who is mentoring who patients can. Sometimes it can cause a problem for yourself, and I’ve seen that happen for sure. So it’s usually helpful if there’s a big age disparity because there’s no miscommunication. But when it’s quite close it can be problematic.

Speaker3: So yeah, you can have to wait a few years because now now you’re going to get loads of people asking. But it’s it’s important though. It’s important. I don’t know why. In my day just was not a [00:20:30] thing. And it really is the best way to learn.

Speaker1: It’s good to hear that people are doing it. Early years I remember when I was doing it, I was very much the black sheep in the year. I wouldn’t to the point where I wouldn’t tell anyone because I was already being criticised for going outside the curriculum. And for example, I was speaking to Heraeus Kulzer at the time, and they were helpful to lend me some composite to try and use instead of using 0.4, which they still use in Bristol, just to try and improve the quality of outcomes in posteriors. And I was really criticised heavily by clinicians and students. [00:21:00] I’ll just keep it all to myself. And I’m glad that it’s now probably more accepted to go outside the curriculum and get some learning through. Mini smile makeover or other means. Because with clinical exposure reducing since I left and since you left, dentists coming out are not as experienced with all the procedures, so they have to do more learning when it comes to private education, shadowing, reading. So if they can do that early whilst they’re in dental school, in this protected environment, that’s all the better. [00:21:30]

Speaker3: Absolutely. I mean, the early years are so formative. And we were discussing off mic, you know, what advice would we give to people? And you made the very good point that we tend to give the advice that’s based on our own experience. Although, you know, I’m not advising people to go start a teeth whitening company, but you’re right in that, in that we all have our own sort of lens that we put in front of the advice. But you went from university [00:22:00] to, I guess PT in Cornwall.

Speaker1: Yeah. Df1. Yeah.

Speaker3: Df1. That’s right. And and then from there straight to cosmetic private dentistry. So. Right. Yes. Okay. So so so tell me about why Cornwall first of all and how was the experience?

Speaker1: Just like my upper sixth application to dental school had one offer then and the only offer to Cornwall at 50 a dental school. I desperately wanted to stay in [00:22:30] Bristol and I was, I think I cried the day that I found out that not that I was going to Cornwall, but I actually didn’t get a position. I was one of those few who didn’t get a position because you ranked so low in the country. And at the time, if you, you know, I was possessed with dentistry and all these different things, and I was just really sad for a period of time. And then after graduating, after passing finals, I found out it was Cornwall. On one hand, I was sad to be leaving Bristol, but number two, on the flip side, I thought it’s a new place, [00:23:00] why not go head first into it, just like I did at Bristol, maybe there for one year or two years beyond. And then I knew Jason was there as well. So that was one of the first things I had on my on my list was to introduce myself to Jason. Before that, I hadn’t met him. I worked in a practice in Wadebridge and two trainers, both of them were lovely, taught me loads about clinical dentistry, and what’s nice about the sticks is that you often get exposure to a wider group of people because [00:23:30] there are less dentists per area per square mile, and in Cornwall in particular there are, there’s a severe lack of certain specialities. Periodontics, prosthodontics or surgery. So those things we would try and bounce the referrals to, to Exeter or Treliske in Truro and sometimes get bounced back to us saying, sorry, we can’t take this patient on for X, Y and Z. So my trainers and I would say, well, let’s let’s give it a try. And as a result you get [00:24:00] amazing exposure to learning.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Which I’d heard in big cities you don’t. So for dentistry it was great. And although I was the youngest person I knew in Cornwall, I got some nice exposure to triathlon. Cycling is amazing out there, so there are lots of positives from it, and I threw myself into a lot of courses at the time, and shadowing did a lot of miles that year in the car. And to answer your question, to then apply for positions I. My priority was not so [00:24:30] much to go into cosmetic private practice, but to find a practice that would support the, let’s say, the educational pathway I was on, which was essentially to treatment plan comprehensively. That was sort of where I was at at the time, improve my skill sets. And and in order to do that, I wasn’t focussed on finances, not one bit. I would spend a lot of time and a lot of stuff, and that doesn’t work with a lot of practices because practices are businesses. And at that time I was jaded for that. That was not really on my radar. So I was searching [00:25:00] for practices that would accommodate that, which there aren’t many. So I sent out a lot of a lot of cold applications. I guess I got some very nice responses, actually, because I did put together a portfolio of sorts based on what I’d done and since fifth year to end of Df1. And I did eventually have people respond positively, and I took on, I believe, three positions, one in south London, one in central London and one in Hertfordshire, and split my [00:25:30] time for that for, for those three practices and, and started a very, very steep learning curve.

Speaker3: And when you said portfolio, are we talking Instagram at that point or. No. What, what how what shape did it take this portfolio. Was it when you you’d send an application, would you just send the photos or on hard paper.

Speaker1: Oh paper I hard paper I’d got them printed professionally. Oh and in hindsight I’m not sure if it was a good move. I think it was, because [00:26:00] I remember. Getting some phone calls.

Speaker4: People who stood out.

Speaker1: Who actually thought what I was doing was the right way. And and a couple of people come to mind. Nick gave me a call from Cardiff. Yeah, yeah. He didn’t have any space at the time, but that’s understandable. Kamal Suri gave me a call. I’d never met her before, so. And she invited me over to have a chat to her, which was great. And through BCD it was sent out as well digitally through through. Suzy and I received several calls from them because I [00:26:30] didn’t know a few of them by that point, so I had it printed.

Speaker3: And what were the cases?

Speaker1: The cases were the cigarette case, the one that I worked so hard on and it turned out great. There was a fibre post core and crown, which by fluke was a good shade match. Um, and I think there was a single tooth bonding which I used enamel on, I believe. Oh, nice. Yeah. And I think I may have sent it to you at the time as it.

Speaker4: Just rings a bell. Yeah. [00:27:00]

Speaker1: Years ago, I remember I spoke to you about it. So, so very simple things. Things that turned out well. And at the time I was photographing different stages of things which most people are not taking any photos at all. So I think, you know, even producing one case from a dentist. Now, if I see one case from a dentist, you know, it elevates them so high because I think 80% do not.

Speaker3: It’s interesting man. We can you can track that way of progressing your career right back to being a student rep at BCD because [00:27:30] of the people you were meeting and the lectures you were watching and and so forth. Get yourself a camera, get yourself some loops or whatever it is, and meet all these people to shadow. So the three practices Hertfordshire was with Rahul?

Speaker1: Yes. Perfect. Smile Studios, Hertfordshire. Yeah. So at the time it was girls Sammy, oh Sam Jethwa and I and interestingly, as I entered that practice, I, Rahul was planning the last ever cohort of the course [00:28:00] that he used to run. You may not have you may have heard of the course, but no one else will have because the course has not been running since 2016 and it was an internal only course. So it was just 4 or 5 of us. And I went straight into that, and that was treating a live case for ceramics. So that was a very steep learning curve, but it was amazing.

Speaker3: I used to visit the practice with the enamel for that course. Yeah, a few times. And what were the other two jobs?

Speaker1: Oh, the 210 Dental Clapham and oh [00:28:30] nice, Nick and Martin. I’d credit them with teaching me much of what I know about implants. And yeah, two great practices there and then Harley Street small clinic with Maurice Morris. Johannes Morris. Johannes.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: What a group of people you’ve been you’ve been exposed to because and we’ve obviously we’ve had both Nick and Martin from ten Dental and two different angles on Implantology. Right. But then Maurice, Johannes, a lot of people don’t know Maurice, but Maurice was one of the original guys in dentists, [00:29:00] which was one of the.

Speaker4: You say.

Speaker1: Dentists, not dentex.

Speaker3: Dentex was the original cosmetic shop front practice in London. The the first really that did it shop front. I mean, there were definitely cosmetic dentists before that, but in more sort of West one locations. But this shop front and he partnered with a PR person and they gone into the at the time it was you know Vogue and and all of that. They used to get their story. But when I, when I was trying to get enlightened into that [00:29:30] practice because I’d made this ridiculous thing in my head that if I can’t get into that practice, I might as well just give up. Right? And I had they put me in front of Chris Hall, okay, who was the clinical director and had Chris sore asking me, where’s the evidence for this? And it was at the time light activated teeth whitening as well, which okay, doubly difficult. I remember I visited that practice so many times trying to get this product in, but um, but Maurice was one of the original guys there. He was.

Speaker1: Yeah, I think it was [00:30:00] him. Joe Oliver and.

Speaker4: Joe Oliver.

Speaker1: Mervyn Drian. But he may have not been in the same practice.

Speaker3: Anything but.

Speaker4: But Mervyn was, you.

Speaker1: Know, I believe he’s older than. Yeah, he’s older than Maurice. But he was always in Swiss.

Speaker4: Saint John’s Wood, Hampstead. Yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. But so Maurice Wood at the time was just doing Paul Simon ears all day.

Speaker1: To this day, to.

Speaker3: This day. And so you were perfect smile cosmetics, Maurice veneers. Were you doing veneers also?

Speaker1: Yes, [00:30:30] I was his support in the sense of people who did not want veneers. So let’s say composite bonding, tooth contouring, gum lifts. I was on that side. But as time went on, I did more and more ceramics cases and as yeah, as a result, I did a mix of cases there and then at ten dental restorative general dentists. So a combination of things that practice is full service. So it’d be working alongside specialist plan sometimes working alongside Martin’s plans which can be quite complex. It’s a very. Edifying [00:31:00] experiences across the three and working alongside people with different approaches and finding which parts you want to take into your clinical practice is what forms you as a clinician. And I think I said it in my post for accreditation, you’re usually the sum total of the people who have exposed you to their workflow. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we forget who those people are, but they will have had an impact. And you know, I made my list.

Speaker3: It is a long list of people I saw there.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So when I sat [00:31:30] down and I thought, who has impacted my practice in a significant way, that I remember something that they’ve taught me and I made that list. And, and it’s a very earnest list because there are tangible things they’ve all given me and I do to this day.

Speaker3: And so let’s pick up on I mean, yeah, clinically, all of these guys are different. Let’s pick up one on the other side of it, because you now are a practice owner yourself. What are things you learnt regarding patients, staff on the practice [00:32:00] management from these three different characters through these three different.

Speaker4: Places on the.

Speaker1: Non-clinical side?

Speaker4: Yeah, we’ll get to clinical.

Speaker1: I had a mentor of sorts. My name is Jill and she isn’t a dentist. You could say she’s a practice manager treatment coordinator, but I’d say she’s much more than that. She’s been at London Smile Clinic, I believe dentists before that and Welbeck Clinic after that and then Harley Street Smile after that. She’s had experience across the top cosmetic clinicians across her career, and [00:32:30] she has enough knowledge to be a dentist, pretty much, and to look at things like a dentist would. But from a customer service point of view, she imparted a few things as to how to make how to make a procedure that is expensive, not very comfortable, as easy as possible for someone who is anxious. We don’t get taught that at university. So specifically I learnt how to respond to complaints, which they don’t teach, how to read someone’s personality as to what they’re really upset about. Sometimes [00:33:00] it’s not written down for you to actually unpick. You have to read between the lines, and how you respond will dictate the outcome in many ways, not from a litigation or a regulatory point of view, but from.

Speaker4: Patient management.

Speaker1: Patient management, patient expectation and the goodwill of the practice. And that goes a long way.

Speaker4: So just just to drill.

Speaker3: Into that, it’s kind of that question of why are you trying to fix it now kind of question, isn’t it, where someone might say, well, [00:33:30] I’m going to get married or I’m I’m at a stage in my life where I’m not feeling like so understanding these sort of soft things around.

Speaker4: That’s right.

Speaker1: Yeah. So I think why fix it now is probably an Ashley lattice sort of. Is it probably. Yeah. Something that he would say is, you know, drill down into what is the motivation to do it now. Yeah. And with a complaint letter it’s a similar approach. What are they actually concerned about. It may not be verbalised. And sometimes you have [00:34:00] to bring them in and just have a have a conversation over a cup of coffee and try and understand how to fix things and finding out what the different routes are to to fix things. And with cosmetics, it’s slightly different to health orientated treatments because the complications are more to do with dissatisfaction over aesthetics or a miscommunication of what the intended outcome could be. And this is not this is a very fine margin stuff. This is these are, you know, as well as I do, the types of things we can be asked for would not [00:34:30] be noticeable by the majority of the population, but it’s important for that person. So understanding that person exceptionally well, the outset is important. And I think, you know, I’d credit her and the other two clinics of giving me that kind of rounded approach as to how to take feedback from a patient in a way that can positively be spun into a way to move forward. You can’t always fix it so.

Speaker4: You know when you can’t.

Speaker3: So now you’re a bit more seasoned. Yeah. Are you almost looking for that nugget [00:35:00] to feed back to the patient? Almost like it’s such a long time since I’ve done a dental examination. But but now that you’re saying it this way, I mean, people are kind of pre-qualified. By the time they come to you. They’re already talking about a makeover of sorts, I suppose. Right. So then you’re almost in, in the, in the assessment process, looking for that key that’s going to sort of switch them into fully trusting you. Is that.

Speaker4: Right? Yeah.

Speaker1: I try not to [00:35:30] prejudge anything. I try and keep an open mind. So even though we’ve got data from them sending their first inquiry or referral into the practice, my treatment coordinator may give me some information about what she thinks about the patient. I’ll take that and I’ll park it. We’ll put it into a note. But when the patient comes in, I really just want to give them a clean slate and just let them tell me about themselves. I want to listen. And another thing I learned from Jane Sproson, you know, is first listen. To understand, [00:36:00] then respond. Dentists have a great ability to pre-empt what someone’s going to say to us, because we know if they give us this list of symptoms, it’s irreversible. Pulpitis so we just know what we’re going to say. You need a root canal treatment. Et cetera. Et cetera, et cetera. I try and disengage my brain from that. Just let them tell us where they’re at. It might be simple. It might be complex. And if those nuggets come up at that time. Okay, hold them in your mind and talk to them about that later, or use it to progress the plan.

Speaker3: But, [00:36:30] I mean, I spoke to Basil Mizrahi and he told me, look, the kind of treatments that I end up doing for patients are so involved. They take such a long time, and they cost such a lot of money that it sometimes takes him three assessments before he’ll want to go ahead on that patient. So do you ever do that? Do you ever get them back in again or what’s the what’s the patient journey. [00:37:00] Let’s go into it. What’s as far as the patient’s met you. You’ve had the chat. You’ve had a look.

Speaker1: One thing I’ve missed out is before the patient sees us in person, there may be a video call. Oh, really? Okay. Video call with myself or the treatment coordinator will uncover many of the things there. And when we go into our consultation phase, we’re doing a barrage of data collection, photographs, occlusal analysis. And then if it’s a complex plan, such as the ones you mentioned Basil might be involved with, I [00:37:30] would give them a skeleton framework to work with. One thing I’m hesitant to do is to give them no plan and say, really? Well, we need to get you back to study models and do a wax up, which I know is an approach that some specialists take. And I think in today’s world, people want to be sure that there is a solution here, and I try and give them that. And sometimes it means that I have to give a treatment plan. That is. Yes, it’s an estimate, but I’m held to it and I give it as accurately as I can. I may refine it later with the second visit. So [00:38:00] to answer your question, in a complex plan, I would do the consultation.

Speaker1: In most cases, 90% of cases I will know the broad strokes of the treatment plan. What I might not know is what’s underneath some of these restorations. I might not know if I can identify this implant, if I can uncover and dismantle this implant in. There are several cases that come to mind right now, but that doesn’t stop me. Treatment planning for every eventuality, I can give the patient a couple of options and say we may not need both. It may just need one. We will find out later. And patients [00:38:30] normally understand. And the other one is we don’t have a cbct in front of us. I can’t tell you if you need a bone augmentation, soft tissue augmentation just yet. We may need to ask you to see our surgeon. And it doesn’t stop me giving them a prosthetic plan. There just may be bits added later, and I just try and communicate that clearly and people seem to understand. So the first consultation is top heavy. Give them all the information then and refinements later with Basil’s approach. You mentioned of a three stages. I can’t comment specifically, [00:39:00] but horses for courses?

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: So just fill in the patient journey for me a little bit. Typically, what’s the most typical route by which a patient finds you? Word of mouth or social media or.

Speaker4: Google okay Google.

Speaker3: So you’ve got a good Google game to start.

Speaker4: We’ll give it a try. Yeah.

Speaker1: I think the difference with Google people are actively searching for something. So they’re usually quite they’ve done some research [00:39:30] attention. Yeah. They’ve got some Dental intelligence. And when they come in they actually they’re engaged. So that’s the most common.

Speaker3: So okay the email comes in or something.

Speaker1: Email comes in, we ask for a photo normally and maybe a 1 or 2 concerns they might have. And the photos may range from lots of photos to no photos to a video. And based on that, our practice manager who clinically trained and we’ve worked together for many years, she analyses the photo, gives her best guess as to what she thinks. I would [00:40:00] say she may run it past me before she writes a response. She would give some indication to the patient as to what she feels could be an option. And if it’s something not so straightforward, such as something involving tooth replacement or ceramics, she would suggest a video call with myself. We arrange a video call. I try to glean more information from a video, which usually is helpful but limiting, and the next stage is a in-person consultation. So from there, we’ve had three touchpoints of consent, I’d say, [00:40:30] which I think is really important because sometimes the consent forms we give are so verbose and so detailed that no one could absorb that much information. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t read it quite right. So when they come to the clinic in person, they already know a lot of the disadvantages and advantages of, let’s say, implants versus bridges or ceramics versus composites. So when I have that discussion with a photograph and a radiograph in front of us, they can actually engage and understand what I’m telling them. After our data collection, [00:41:00] I would issue a treatment plan based on what they think is good for them. And if they’re not sure, I might issue two two treatment plans if they’re thinking of both.

Speaker3: But when? So how far? When does that appear? When does that land? Is it at the end of that visit? Is it one day later?

Speaker1: Is it on the day?

Speaker4: On the day?

Speaker3: Okay. Perfect. Because you’ve had these touch points. You kind of know which way which direction you’re going.

Speaker1: Yes. And I try and give my advice as well because many, many people will defer to us even though we are. Supposed [00:41:30] to give the options and the patient makes their decision. Yes, they do, but they may ask us for what their advice is, what our advice is, and I.

Speaker3: Yeah, and I think Prav talks about this a lot, and I totally agree with him that in that moment. We should give the answer, we.

Speaker1: Should.

Speaker3: Whereas that’s not specifically taught. I mean, there’s a lot of people who say you give them the three options. It’s their decision, you know, but, you know, with every other supplier I’ve ever had, right? [00:42:00] I’m going to ask that supplier, okay. What would you do in this situation yourself?

Speaker4: It’s so interesting.

Speaker1: Ollie Harmon and I were discussing this at accreditation. Viva. Oh, really? Yeah. Because there was a case which I did, which was very debateable as to which approach to take. And we were having the debate open forum, three examiners and the ten of the accredited members at the back of the room listening in. And we were.

Speaker4: Let’s be nerve wracking.

Speaker1: It was it was when you have that much knowledge in the room to temper my answers very carefully.

Speaker4: Choose your words.

Speaker1: Not as much as I have today. And [00:42:30] we were asking ourselves the question, to what extent do we respect the patient’s autonomy to make a bad decision?

Speaker3: Well, if they have informed consent, right?

Speaker4: Correct.

Speaker1: Informed, informed consent. But there must come a line where we are no longer comfortable to actually do the procedure ourselves. So we have patients. Let me give you an extreme example.

Speaker4: Oh, I get it. I get the.

Speaker1: Extreme. One is a patient comes in and says, I’d like to have all my teeth removed in favour of implants. You could give them informed consent and they [00:43:00] may still continue with that decision. But how many dentists would be comfortable actually physically doing that procedure? Not many. So there comes a line where a dentist would not be willing to cut a tooth back, or to remove a tooth for reasons of elective informed consent.

Speaker3: But but I mean, just in that it’s an extreme example, right? But if you thought you explained to the patient the benefits, the costs and benefits and advantages and many disadvantages of that [00:43:30] route of action, and then they they said, yeah, I hear all that, I understand all that, and I still want to have my teeth taken out. Then you need to refer them to some sort of psychologist to see. Are they, are they actually understanding something like that? It’s madness.

Speaker4: But yes.

Speaker1: But also don’t underestimate people’s ability to make a bad decision and to have a different set of values that we may do as dentists. We’ve been through a very specific training pathway [00:44:00] to understand dental health, medical health. We have that information that patients do not. They also may have different set of values in the sense of I’ve seen people be prepared to take much more physical risk with the aim to get 10% of aesthetic improvement, whereas they may never do.

Speaker4: It came up in.

Speaker3: Dental trauma, didn’t it? We both.

Speaker4: We both. Yeah. You were there.

Speaker3: Both. We both commented on it. Yeah we.

Speaker4: Did. Yeah.

Speaker3: You’re right, you’re right. It’s an interesting it’s an interesting area. Right. And that daughter test that came up. Yeah there’s there’s sort of it’s [00:44:30] the daughter’s choice.

Speaker4: That’s right. It’s not your choice. Well the point.

Speaker1: The one in Dental Rama. I didn’t explain too well. Maybe I can explain it here. Yeah. The daughter test is problematic because the act of the patient being the daughter is not what should guide your decision making. It has to be the patient’s values and circumstances in their personal, professional and social life, not the fact that they are a loved one of yours. Yeah.

Speaker4: Agreed.

Speaker1: So Martin Kelleher had an unfortunate experience of having his career exposed with lots [00:45:00] of ceramics cases that got complicated, and he had to replace all of them. So he published the articles that he that he published and Daughter Test was one of them. And that article is infiltrated all dental schools. And that’s now how we make decisions. But I’m keen to write a response to it, to say that we need to come away from the daughter test in favour of something along the lines of Montgomery’s judgement, which is to take into account the patient’s values in that point in time informed consent, as you said, and [00:45:30] respect their autonomy to make a decision you don’t agree with. Yeah.

Speaker4: Agreed?

Speaker3: Agreed. Like, for instance, if, let’s say the person is a model. And is thinking career wise, this will help my career loads and I accept the health cost for it.

Speaker4: I would be much more that they’ve.

Speaker3: Got agency in that decision.

Speaker4: That’s right.

Speaker1: And your ability to be more aggressive with your treatment plan in the aim of helping the cosmetics should be much broader than someone [00:46:00] who is not in that in that professional work.

Speaker3: That said that said, I think the infiltration of the daughter test into all curriculums probably overall net net, a big positive. It’s a good, good, good thing to keep pointing people to. But you’re right, there’s nuance. There’s nuance especially. You’ve got to understand that in your situation, you’re seeing that the very edge of I mean, I know you understand this, but you’re seeing a very edge of the total. The people who are coming for specifically this sort of treatment. [00:46:30] Talk me through now the rest of your career after that. So you were in these three practices. What was the next career move?

Speaker1: One of the dentists, Harley Street Small Clinic, was departing, and I was asked to do more days there in a hurry. And I had a decision to make whether to say yes and consolidate my time to that one practice, which is what it would take or to decline. And I took the decision to consolidate to one practice at [00:47:00] that point. So that’s what I did. And what.

Speaker3: Was the driver of that decision.

Speaker1: In Hertfordshire in ten Dental? Whilst my exposures to dentistry were excellent and I had a good time, both of those practices, Harley Street Smile was not a general practice. It operates as a little bit like a referral clinic. Patients come to us for their elective treatment and they usually have a GDP they go to afterwards. And I was intrigued by that approach, and I thought it was good in the sense of it allowed us to really become experts [00:47:30] at a very small select group of treatments. So I can tell you what those are. It’s it’s tooth contouring, gum lifts, composite bonding and ceramics implants was my bag. I did a bit of that as well. That was it. It’s a very small group of treatments. And I thought to myself, those are the areas I’m developing most in. I should do more of.

Speaker4: That was all.

Speaker3: Did it? Did it spill over into full mouth rehab, or were you referring those?

Speaker4: It did.

Speaker1: It did a little bit. And depending on different [00:48:00] clinicians risk appetite, people would take it on or not take it on. And that’s where some things would go in Basil’s direction or not. And we had a referral relationship with Basil’s practice at the time. To clarify, it was Maurice Gilmartin and myself, those practices, and Jill’s actually one of the people that pushed me towards accreditation.

Speaker4: Oh, nice. Nice. All right.

Speaker3: So so then at what point did you think I’m going to break out by myself? And did you go all in or did you keep doing a few days circumstances? [00:48:30]

Speaker1: I stayed at Harley Street Smart for five years, so it was quite, quite a big gap between consolidating my time and thinking about starting my own. I think the first inkling of it was when dentex became involved with many of the practices across the country. They struck a deal with Maurice’s practice, and they they took over us. Yeah. And and no particular issues as such. But what did happen was I wondered what happened at the end of that road for dentex. What was the outcome going [00:49:00] to be for the practice? And it was kind of unknown at the time. And I was I was relatively happy. So I was not I was not thinking of starting my own. It wasn’t really on the cards. But I did think to myself, is the long term in anyone’s sort of radar? Dentex. Maurice, what’s what’s their outcome here? I didn’t really know what it was. The thing that tipped it for me was having a regulatory case occur in 2019, and I didn’t know what the outcome of that would be. The two outcomes were I [00:49:30] stay at the current practice or I need to start my own for reasons of being let go of that practice as a result of the case, and I didn’t know what it would be.

Speaker3: So you started mentally thinking, worst case, I’m moving. But you weren’t moving to an associate somewhere. You were going to move and do your own place.

Speaker4: I also considered.

Speaker1: Moving as an associate as well. When the case did break out publicly, I did get a lot of calls of support, and people did actually say to me, if you if you need a position, give me a call. Which is really kind, actually [00:50:00] at time was quite difficult, you know, quite difficult time. Having said that, Harley Street Smart were very supportive. They had no intention of.

Speaker4: Letting you go, letting me.

Speaker1: Go. And I give the clinic and all the team a lot of respect for that, for for going through a very tough time with me. But we didn’t know what the outcome of the case was until 18 months after we knew there was a case. So we just continued as normal until that time. And but in my mind, I thought to myself, well, either I stay at this practice or I become an associate or I start my own. Which [00:50:30] one of those was I didn’t know until I knew how long, how much time was going to be suspended for if I was going to be suspended at all. And what the. Fallout would be with the practices involved, because the complicating factor for a business is if a dentist is not there, they can’t leave the position open. It’s not viable. And I totally understand. So how long can a business leave a space for a dentist financially and still have me come back.

Speaker3: To go into the case? Sure.

Speaker1: Plymouth. [00:51:00] What would you like to know?

Speaker4: Tell us about the case.

Speaker1: In a in a nutshell. The case was me not maintaining a professional boundary with a patient combination of poor judgement on my part and bad luck. I think I’ve learned some hard lessons from it. I’ve learnt a lot about our regulators and how the system works. I’ve taken some positives from it as well. I think if the case hadn’t happened, I think I would be at Harley Street. Smile.

Speaker4: Oh really, I think so.

Speaker1: And I wouldn’t [00:51:30] have taken a six month sabbatical ever. I can’t see why I would, but having taken that six months or been given that six months, it was one of the nicest and most memorable times of my life because I legally wasn’t allowed to give any dental advice either. So I had to actually ignore all my emails.

Speaker4: I mean, I love how you’ve.

Speaker3: Drawn a such a positive out of out of that, but take me through the darkest part of that time. So, I mean, do you understand that people say it’s the most stressful time of their life? Did you feel that [00:52:00] or not? Did you manage it differently?

Speaker1: It came in different ways.

Speaker4: Moments.

Speaker1: Yeah, because a case starts at a point in time and only a handful of people know about it. It’s not so stressful at that point. And then it continues on. You don’t really think about it. You continue practising as normal. And that was one of the most supportive things, is that even when the case broke out publicly patients, it didn’t change a thing in the practice, which was encouraging. The most stressful time was, I think, when the [00:52:30] press picked it up and decided to spin it and spread it everywhere. And this was in November 2020. We’re just coming out of Covid at this point and just starting back up. Things are quite busy in dentistry, and I didn’t expect it to get a.

Speaker3: Stressful period for everyone, wasn’t it? Let alone having this on top?

Speaker1: I think so, and we were not expecting it to go national and viral and international. It was more than what we had expected and as a result, that had to have some very difficult conversations with everyone [00:53:00] from other dentists I knew to family to my commanding officer in the Navy, because I hadn’t told people in the Crimson what what was happening. I in broad strokes I may mention it, but I wouldn’t give the details. And that was the toughest time.

Speaker4: You mentioned the.

Speaker3: Navy. Were you a Navy dentist? Were you that cut?

Speaker1: I’m a general entry. I am not Dental in the Navy. Oh. Non dental.

Speaker3: Oh I see. How interesting. So, [00:53:30] okay. Advice to others who are getting that letter because many, many, many of us are getting this letter now that you’ve been through this awful experience. What are your nuggets that you’d advice that you’d give others who are going to get these letters?

Speaker1: I have had conversations with people who have had these letters and they ask for advice. And each case is very specific. And me, having been through one to do with professional conduct, is [00:54:00] very specific and many cases are clinical performance related, which is an entirely different arm of the GDC, one that I don’t know about to the point of. The panellists are very different as well. So on the clinical performance ones, I’d say my knowledge is as good as yours, but the ones on professional conduct, I always went into my case trying to be open and honest, and to hold my hands up to what I did wrong and to apologise, seeing in the judgement what has been decided [00:54:30] to be a fact and what’s not a fact. Part of my mind thinks is that which was was my approach correct? Because it didn’t pan out in my favour, and I’m not sure what I could have done to make it any better. I’m not sure. I’m not sure I could have. I could have made it worse. And I think probably being candid and honest is probably a good way to go.

Speaker3: Yeah, I can see. Look, just talking to you, I can see you’re choosing every word very carefully. Not just about this. On every subject I see, you know, any, [00:55:00] any point you’re. I can see honesty is a massive thing to you. It seems. It seems obvious. But when I’ve been involved with a legal problem before. Nothing to do with dentistry but a legal problem, which it was dentistry. It wasn’t. It wasn’t GDC. Um, I was shocked at how the system didn’t just bring the truth out. I thought, you know, in my naivety, I thought, look, I’ll just tell my side of the story. The truth will out and [00:55:30] that will be the end of it, and it doesn’t. Whereas my adversary had loads of experience in legal and played that experience really well and didn’t necessarily tell the full truth, and mud stuck. So so, you know, this question of could you have done something differently in that case, I don’t know. I don’t know because I’m not expert. But I was shocked, I don’t know, how did you feel about number one, the legal ramifications, because, you know, before you were ever involved [00:56:00] in anything legal, you just think, well, it’s just it’s just this wonderful place where the truth comes out. But that certainly isn’t the case. It’s a place where the best lawyer is wins, is what I found out, like the one, the most expensive lawyer. But but number one. But then number two.

Speaker4: Most compelling lawyer.

Speaker3: Compelling.

Speaker4: Compelling. Aggressive. Compelling. Yeah.

Speaker1: Verbose.

Speaker3: Yeah. Number two. What about the press? Did that surprise you as well? I mean, what were the what were the the [00:56:30] ingredients of that virality? Was there was there someone in the press that acted outside of what you would have expected or what? Did it just go viral because it did or salaciously what was it, what what are what are your reflections on the law and the press after having been through this?

Speaker1: Interestingly, with the press, I thought if we ever did a PR campaign to get some positive press on myself post the case, would they ever would they ever do this? Because I’m sure, you know, [00:57:00] if you have the, let’s say, the Daily Mail and they have an article about you and you say, okay, let’s do a, let’s do a piece about dental health education. And they may just link related articles about me at the bottom of that, which spins the old negative press at the same time. So my team and I were really worried when we launched the practice as to how can we launch a PR campaign without risking the negative press getting resurged. Encouragingly, we found out that the press are not personal. They [00:57:30] really are not. They are business entities that are looking to.

Speaker3: Driven by their own goals, driven.

Speaker1: By other goals. Bigger than you, bigger than me. They do not particularly care about the case or even about the the truth element you mentioned. So when we decided to do a PR campaign to the positive, The Sun, the Daily Mail didn’t spin anything from the past and as a result I learnt something about it. So that was what I learnt about the press. And when it comes to legal matters, it’s, you know, circling [00:58:00] back to your very first point about your case and you truth not necessarily coming out. I think when it comes to things that don’t have hard evidence, when it’s your word against someone else’s, humans are going to be humans. And I’ve learned that that is the case of panellists as well. It’s not that they’re trying to make it hard for you or have someone else’s side necessarily. They’re going to be guided by human factors, how you come across in cross-examination and in hindsight, I didn’t come across so [00:58:30] well in cross-examination because I was under extreme pressure and extremely stress. So as a result, it became very sort of robotic in my answers, which didn’t come across well.

Speaker4: I mean, you.

Speaker3: Started the clinic, you went for some positive PR when you say you went for PR, did you hire a PR agency? Yeah. And then I mean, look at now I look at your social media, you’ve got many, many thousands of followers and your output is extraordinary. Were you doing [00:59:00] that? From what point was it, was it was it when you opened the clinic that you went ballistic on the social media, or were you already doing a lot? Was it was it kind of a redemption thing where you wanted to just say, hey, I’m, I’m out here and I’m, I don’t I’m not I’m not shy after that that’s happened, you know, how did how did it how did you feel about it? All of.

Speaker4: The above.

Speaker1: I remember speaking to a friend at the time and thinking, I post clinical cases like many dentists do. Yeah. [00:59:30] Before and after. Pretty mundane these days. But not a lot of people go on camera and talk about things. A handful of people do as we know. And I thought, can I add anything? And I kind of really racked my brain. An offer, put some ideas down and started recording some stuff. I just thought, I’ll upload it, see what happens. Then I got some traction on it and then it continued. And that’s really it. Redemption. I don’t think of it like that because I had such a rich time in that six month period. I don’t think of it as like a negative in [01:00:00] my mind. It’s actually a time I really relished and I had such a great time travelling. I know we talked about it when I was away. It’s such a positive in my life now. All the things to do with the case just almost kind of gets, you know, cornered into nothing. And, you know, the time I’ve spoken about it, today is the first time I’ve spoken about it in a long time.

Speaker3: Did you come here today planning to speak about it or did you? When I asked you this morning, did you decide there and then? You’re. You’re cool.

Speaker1: Given the subjects you’ve brought up on [01:00:30] this podcast before, I thought it would be on the cards. I didn’t know if you’d actually do it, though.

Speaker3: It’s incredibly brave. Incredibly brave of you to to be happy to talk about it, because you can understand why someone would want to sweep this under the carpet, but also incredibly helpful to others. And then, from my perspective, incredibly impressive what you’ve done with it. You’ve sort of used it to propel yourself forward in a way, you know, as a as a driver that you’re going to prove us all wrong or [01:01:00] prove whoever was was saying anything about you wrong. Something like that. And what kind of a person are you, dude? Are you are you the kind of person who gets involved in back and go up the the, you know, what do you call it? The committee and.

Speaker4: I do.

Speaker3: That sort of.

Speaker4: Thing.

Speaker1: People usually go committee or accreditation way. I’ve chosen the latter.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So I think I’ll continue on that. On the education side, I do enjoy passing on what I’ve learnt because so many people, as we talked about, you know, passed on what they, [01:01:30] they, they learnt. And I’m doing a bit more teaching with the, with a little bit more with, with other teaching academies as well. And that kind of blends in quite nicely with the oral health education for the public, which is on social media. So I quite like just getting better information out there, because one of the things I find is misinformation is problematic, and the industry in the UK is lagging behind mainland Europe and the rest of the world in terms of clinical standards, but also knowledge. So I’m [01:02:00] trying to change that for the public and dentists.

Speaker3: I’m going to ask you a really, really unfair question now. Yeah, but I kind of like this idea, right. Of if you had to put it in a nutshell, your clinical not value add, but your clinical aha moment, what would that be? And let me give you an example. When I asked Sam Jethwa this question, he gave a lovely answer. It was about the occlusion being outside in as well as [01:02:30] inside out.

Speaker4: Oh really? That was his when.

Speaker3: When he when that clicked for him, it it made a big difference. And it was funny because at the time I’d never thought about the outside. So I’m sure you had but but I had. Can you think of, like what comes to mind when I say that?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Occlusion comes to.

Speaker4: Mind because it’s.

Speaker1: An area which, you know, shrouded in mystery. And Sam and I kind of went through a kind of together. Almost together. Yeah, a journey on that. But we never spoke about it too much because clearly we have different experiences. But a big [01:03:00] thing in my mind and other people’s minds. How can you fit a restoration and know if it’s going to last with confidence? As a dentist, you’re coming out of dental school. How can you know it’s going to last? What are the parameters that we should check aside from? You know, how the teeth come together? That’s just not enough. And I think the aha moment is understanding guidance, pathways, steepness, interferences, how people posture their teeth. If there is interferences, how [01:03:30] that gets deflected to other teeth. It’s a very generalised way of saying why things break down and you look at enough cases and look it in a certain way and you realise why things have worn in a certain way, why that cusp is broken. Once you realise that you can treatment plan so much clearly so.

Speaker3: So again we are talking occlusion.

Speaker1: Talking occlusion. Yeah.

Speaker3: But give me an example. Like it’s often, it’s often the lateral that’s broken okay.

Speaker4: Here’s here’s one. Have you ever.

Speaker1: Seen you have seen those cases where patients got no worn teeth [01:04:00] at all except the lower anteriors. We wonder why. Okay, they’re clearly posturing on those front teeth. Right. What’s what’s up with that? And I found out why. Constricted chewing envelope. Class two, Division two. Retrogradation of the upper central incisors. Creates less space for those lower incisors in function. As a result, you get that shearing effect. You get that incisor buckle where that shiny surface, and you multiply that over 20 years. What do you get? You get localised anterior tooth [01:04:30] wear. These cases are primed for a certain approach to be treated. But that was a clear moment of now I can see all those cases. As soon as you see that you know exactly what’s going on. And before you would think, oh, well, there are attrition. It’s. And it’s not just that.

Speaker4: You doll.

Speaker3: Do you doll as well or not?

Speaker1: I do, and I’m developing or formulating a slightly different approach on doll, which is what I’d call accelerated doll. Typically doll is with the cobalt chrome appliance onto the top teeth. You get the [01:05:00] space built up through that way, and then you restore them indirectly or directly. I think Hemmings then developed that process to have doll direct composite build-ups, which is now the preferred approach instead of the appliance. So I’ve taken that one step further and I take it to ceramics instead of composites. Increase video, and I’d hope to publish it at some point. But if you direct the forces in a certain way, the intrusion and extrusion effects you have will not compromise your aesthetics. [01:05:30] That’s the main concern, and I’ve.

Speaker4: Got pretty good.

Speaker1: Recall. It’s fine.

Speaker3: The other thing Sam said was his sort of value add was, if I remember correctly, the temper ization phase where he thought he had a pretty could give the patient a very accurate representation of what their final result was going to be with his temporaries, even though I think he doesn’t directly not not in that sort of Gallup career way. What would you say? It’s your sort.

Speaker4: Of.

Speaker3: Value [01:06:00] add if I if a patient comes to you specifically for aesthetics, what is it that you do that adds value? You know, it’s an interesting question because in a way I’m asking for, okay, you’re standing on the shoulder of giants. There’s all these people who’ve given you tips. What’s your tip? You know, your tip that you’ve come up with? I know you’ve got many.

Speaker1: My approach to understanding ceramics as they are today, I think I go a little bit [01:06:30] deeper than most would. Ceramics are developing very fast, and one of the things that have eluded most ceramics cases is getting fluorescence on the result. Now, if people are wondering what that means is when light goes through a natural tooth, it internally refracts in the dentine and then emits back out as if it is its own light source, and that gives the appearance of vitality. So what makes something look less flat? Emacs Press has always had a problem with [01:07:00] this because it looks grey at high value, right? And it has quite low fluorescence, but it’s a great material because of biomechanical properties. Feldspathic porcelain is awesome for a fluorescence because it’s got so much natural feldspar in it that that internal refraction can be emulated. But it’s got biomechanical issues, right? Super weak, and you need to cut heavy margins. All this stuff is it doesn’t really fit with minimally invasive dentistry. And you can’t you can’t do it. Accelerated [01:07:30] dull and feldspathic ceramics. I wouldn’t advise it anyway. Ceramics are developing. There are ceramics out there and I would say my tip and my my value add is understanding those ceramics, knowing which combinations work best. I keep a list of my ceramics and I are aware of which combinations will work best for different skin tones, different types of makeup, different lighting and that is what will make a nice looking smile, smile, make over look sort of world class versus, you know, kind of just really good. [01:08:00]

Speaker3: Now I’m really interested in if there was a way of doing an experiment. If I removed your ceramist from you, how long would it take you to get back to where you are now? And vice versa, if we remove you. Yeah. And there’s a ceramist working with another dentist. What would be the situation, how long it would take him to get back to?

Speaker4: I’m glad you.

Speaker1: Asked that, because I can answer your question. I can.

Speaker4: Answer I can answer.

Speaker1: The first one anyway, if I get removed.

Speaker4: I’m not sure. That as well.

Speaker1: The [01:08:30] first one. If the ceramics gets removed, how long does it take to train a new ceramist to the same workflow? Six months.

Speaker4: Six months.

Speaker3: And that’s someone who starts already. Quite good, right?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Someone who’s free thinking, creative, good at their hands. Quite a long time.

Speaker3: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure.

Speaker1: And that’s why I would always advise people doing a lot of ceramics cases to have multiple ceramists, because 1st May go on go off sick or something will happen. [01:09:00] And you need, you need several. And usually ceramics are not good at everything. So an occlusion doll case is going to be someone very technically minded, not necessarily creatively minded, versus a single tooth ceramic case. You need to have, you know, a really careful.

Speaker3: Chairman versus an Italian.

Speaker4: That’s right, that’s right.

Speaker1: So German Swiss approach would be very, very. Yeah. And okay, so the typical one a lot of South African ceramics in the UK, they are very good with occlusion and things like that. But [01:09:30] creatively they all have one way of making teeth look and that’s it. And that and one of the Holy Grail in ceramic work is for ceramists, is having creative diversity in how you build teeth. We get taught how to build a tooth and we make it the same way each time. Having variation is one of the hardest things. I’ve only ever seen it a couple of times and if you get it, those people are worth their weight in gold.

Speaker3: Let’s move on to darker days, even darker. I know we’ve [01:10:00] been through some, but we like to on this. On this pod, we’d like to discuss errors so that in medical we we don’t have to share our errors very much, mainly because we’re sort of trying to run away from blame. But it’s based on black box thinking where if there’s a plane crash. The community tries to find out what happened without blame, and then the information goes out to the whole community so [01:10:30] that you don’t have to learn only from your own mistakes. You can learn from other people’s mistakes. With that in mind, and outside of your case, what comes to mind? Clinical error wise.

Speaker1: The one that comes to mind was in my last couple of months as a foundation dentist, I was on a steep learning curve. As we discussed. I was keen to, you know, they say after a course patient who’s most in need of that treatment is on Monday, right? And I was succumbing to that as well. [01:11:00] I thought I’d take on a full mouth rehabilitation case in ceramic, and at the time I was working alongside a ceramist who was very high achieving as well, and was working at a high standard. So the pressure was on, you know, in various various ways. It was prosthodontic. It was it was it was quite complex collusion and my knowledge was definitely lacking. And the issues that came out of the case was that I didn’t know enough about how to take [01:11:30] complicated impression of multiple abutments, to the extent that I could never get a good working model. So as a result, the restorations never fit perfectly. And this is a combination of bridge crown on veneer. So you’re asking the to go into different nooks and crannies and directions. And as soon as you have that you often need to take to use other methods. And I and I couldn’t get my head around it. And I also had a limitation in terms of the standard of materials I was working with. Now they say they don’t, you know, don’t blame your tools. [01:12:00] To an extent you should for sure. And with one of the things that I realised as soon as I went to a practice with something that was a high standard material, wow, my technique or the material seemed to make a big difference. It probably was both.

Speaker3: I mean, listen, imagine if I took away your favourite instrument or your favourite loops or your favourite composite, or you would affect you, it would affect you.

Speaker4: You give me a.

Speaker1: Turbine instead of a speed increasing handpiece, I’ll be there for a [01:12:30] lot longer. And the burr is going to do this. You know, it doesn’t matter how steady your hands are, the burr is doing this.

Speaker3: So go ahead. Go. What happened?

Speaker1: So the case, the case I was up against the clock because I was leaving to go back to London, and I was aware that I wanted to finish the case. It’s not really one you can pass on to someone else. The good thing is about the case is that it was pretty much as a Df1 any private work you do, you are not paid for. So it’s pro bono from my point of view. For me, I just wanted to learn. And, you know, as a result, the patient gets a huge discount [01:13:00] on the treatment. The case was was fitted. The margins were incongruous, not not fitting as well as they needed to be. And I’m thankful to my trainer for taking on the case and redoing it, which is what I believe happened.

Speaker3: So the mistake.

Speaker4: Was a disaster.

Speaker1: There was no disaster that.

Speaker4: You know, what.

Speaker3: Was the mistake? You didn’t know how to take the impression with a special tray or something.

Speaker1: Oh, I had all of that. Yeah.

Speaker4: What was the mistake?

Speaker1: Not understanding the complexity of how to prepare for restorations [01:13:30] of different shapes around the arch. How to transfer the relationship when you’re preparing upper and lower teeth. I was going to learn that about six months from that point, and I wish I knew that before that. So the lesson I took was probably to not jump ahead too fast. It’s hard to know where to where to pitch it, because in many cases, you know, that was smaller than that. You know, they worked worked out really well. How do you know when it’s too much or be beyond your scope? It [01:14:00] clearly was took a lot from it, and I think it was a safe environment to do so because the patient was not, you know, had a significant discount on the treatment. I was working under two trainers who were very experienced, and the only problem was it was just a combination of limited time, limited knowledge.

Speaker4: Perfect storm. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. And if I had more time, I probably would have fixed it. But but I was lacking knowledge for sure. And I was biting off more than I could chew. And as a result, you know, ceramist is frustrated, team are frustrated. [01:14:30] The trainers are frustrated because I’ve then left the practice and you know, it did haunt me a little bit when I was back in London thinking, you know, you’ve left this, you’ve left this case knowingly in a bad state.

Speaker3: And we never know, do we, until we try something for the first time. We never know what the outcome of that is going to be. I remember my first cerec was horrible with all the powder.

Speaker1: Yeah, I use powder.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, I remember.

Speaker3: My first Invisalign. I could not believe that they were letting me loose on a patient with a two day course on [01:15:00] how to use the the portal, you know? Yeah. At the time, Invisalign was quite a hard thing to put in place and take out and all that.

Speaker4: So yeah, but I think, like.

Speaker1: You say, the black box thinking approach is lost in health care. Yeah. Why is it lost? I remember writing a reference to Black box thinking in my reflection for the GDC. Don’t know if they they read that part, but.

Speaker4: It’s.

Speaker1: Something that we could take a lot of lessons from that industry, and it would [01:15:30] reduce a lot of the issues people have when they have litigation regulatory cases, by not encouraging them to hide. Many of the typical pieces of advice are came up in Dental AMAs. Don’t change the notes. Don’t try and cover up anything that’s happened. Be be candid. And why is it that people are thinking about covering things up in the first place? You’d think because there’s a there’s a blame culture. There’s the clinician is is liable. [01:16:00] The buck ends with that person. So it creates this culture of people not wanting to own up to mistakes. Which is why I’m glad you asked this question. So what is the mistake? Many people would just never talk about it. You know, how many study clubs have you been to where they talk about failures only? None. None.

Speaker4: You know, I was thinking, Emily.

Speaker1: Rena and I, you know, we run a study club and we’ve talked about it for years doing a study club just on our failures. And we just, you know, we said, oh, no, we’ll do that another time.

Speaker4: Another time.

Speaker3: I’m thinking of doing a conference on failures. Only [01:16:30] failures allowed. Yeah. You call it something fun.

Speaker1: There are two ways that can go, though. Either someone comes up with a real failure, or they come up with a case that actually is awesome. They say, oh no, this is not quite right, and it’s almost like a show off. It’s like a.

Speaker4: Humblebrag.

Speaker1: Exactly. It makes you seem even better because you think failure is this awesome case and it makes everyone feel worse. So you’ve got to put it as a failure. But don’t mean a I mean a failure in the sense of it’s an unfixable or, you know, a failure.

Speaker4: I hear where you’re coming [01:17:00] from here.

Speaker3: I’ve also had another idea, which I think is a wonderful idea, but what do you think of this? I really want to run this by someone. Yeah. You know, you go to a lecture and the rate at which the lecture is being. You’ve been to so many, right? The rate at which the guy is speaking. And my particular bugbear is this four bulleted points. And these reading the four bulleted points out, you know, maybe putting a bit of detail around each one, but I can read them quicker than you can tell me them. Yeah. [01:17:30] So but if everyone in the audience has a button for more than 50%, press the button. The slide just goes forward. It would be nerve wracking as the lecturer would be horrible, but in the audience it’s really good.

Speaker4: It’s really good. It’s good. That is good. You know, there’s a.

Speaker3: Number of times you just think, okay, okay, we got that move on. It’s such.

Speaker4: A good idea because it allows the people.

Speaker1: Receiving the information to receive at their speed.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: And I’ll tell you the other thing.

Speaker4: And it gives feedback.

Speaker1: To the lecturer.

Speaker4: Of, you know, you’re [01:18:00] rambling.

Speaker3: Yeah. And I’m talking to loads of loads of speakers in my time. Right. And I sometimes hear people say, oh, I filled it out with that. And to me I just see red when when I hear that. Right. Because. What are we doing here? Like wasting each other’s time. Going to fill it out with stuff, you know, like, don’t fill it out, make it a shorter conversation if it’s like that. Yeah.

Speaker1: I’m doing a course for the BCD on ceramics courses that don’t exist on ceramics these days, and I’ve got one day to do [01:18:30] as much as I can. Yeah, it’s the complete opposite approach. I was looking at my slides the other day and thinking.

Speaker4: Editing out which which parts can.

Speaker1: I must keep because I need.

Speaker4: I.

Speaker1: Can’t fit everything in. It’s only one day and that’s the problem we should have.

Speaker4: Exactly.

Speaker1: Not having too, you know, too much time.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: You know, like traditionally back in my day it would be like, oh, we’re talking about ceramics. Let’s start with the history of ceramics. Yeah, yeah. But by the way, probably, you know, it makes some sense if we’re talking relating the history to the future and so forth, and the trends happen and so [01:19:00] forth. But come on, man, I think.

Speaker1: Chris, Chris finds a good balance in that. He gives you a, you know, a stack of reading material. Very good. Before before you come in. And it’s your choice whether you read it or not. But then he’s going to run with it and talk about everything, you know, assuming you’ve read it. And that’s great because you’ve engaged before coming in. And he doesn’t have to recite to you the history of ceramics. He can.

Speaker3: The thing about Crystal is the presentation is not you know, I’ve seen many more beautiful presentations than his. It’s all about the presentation. It’s not I mean, I [01:19:30] know many more charming, funnier. He’s a funny guy. Yeah, but it’s not about his charm. He somehow manages to for me, he manages to to cover depth and breadth to the right amount. You know, you think it’s either depth or breadth, and sometimes it’s too much depth and not enough breadth and sometimes the other way around. But his his proportion ratio of depth to breadth is perfect.

Speaker4: I think people appreciate his common.

Speaker3: Sense sort of.

Speaker4: Degree [01:20:00] of.

Speaker1: Rationality when it comes to different approaches. You know, you ask him about any, any subject or any teacher and he’ll he’ll give you a very measured response.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: He’s not one to get on a bandwagon or fleetingly move from, you know, from, from one approach to something else. You know, as I was chatting to him the other night about biomimetics and, you know, that’s that’s all the rage right now, he’ll come up with an answer which is, you know, quite sympathetic to everything. And but he’ll he’ll give his opinion.

Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker3: But a lot of respect for him. We’re coming to the end of our [01:20:30] time. We tend to end these with the same two questions. The first is a frivolous one fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you want to have a chat to?

Speaker1: First one is straightforward Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Speaker4: Arnie. Yeah.

Speaker3: I had him recently on politics. Do you ever listen to. Yes. Yeah. Leaders leading. Leading. Yeah. I never I never used to understand anything about Arnie until Prav [01:21:00] told me. He’s he’s one of his heroes. And I thought, man. And then I really enjoyed listening to him though.

Speaker1: People think of him, you know, he’s misunderstood as being the kind of the movie guy or the weights guy. But behind all of that, he’s someone who’s kind of he’s lived three lifetimes when one person would be happy just with one third of what he’s done. And all of that is testament not to kind of good luck or anything like that. He’s forged it out of nothing.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So I have a lot of respect for someone like that. And he’s had his fair share of turbulent times [01:21:30] as well. And he’s come out of it and he’s he’s an interesting character for sure.

Speaker3: Didn’t he father a child with his nanny? That’s right.

Speaker4: I think a year.

Speaker1: Or two before he became governor.

Speaker4: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Who else?

Speaker3: Michael Jackson for the dancing.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: And I think creatively, you know, dancing wise, but creatively, you know, think about the best performance in the world right now. He still seems to stand on their shoulders. I know many people. You know, Beyonce is probably one [01:22:00] of the best these days. But you take into account his musicality, his acting ability, his dancing ability. It kind of he did things which very rarely happen, and he developed from his dance style, a whole range of different things in dance kind of developed and it kind of came the roads led from him and.

Speaker4: So, so listen.

Speaker3: I’m no expert in dance, but you are. Yeah. So. Okay. Michael Jackson dance. What about, like, proper professional dancers? That’s all they do. Dancers do they are they [01:22:30] not more impressive than Michael Jackson’s dancing?

Speaker4: No, really.

Speaker3: Because, I mean, his style was his style.

Speaker4: You’re right.

Speaker1: Michael Jackson’s ability in dance was in succession of of professional dancers. And where he where he shines a lot is his ability to develop innovative choreography, which people have not seen before. And he, you know, he developed certain certain dance moves which are very famous now. But branching from that, you had different dance styles. That whole style would come from, from Michael Jackson.

Speaker3: I guess the reason [01:23:00] I’m pushing back is because I was a massive Prince fan and Prince at the time. It was either one or the other.

Speaker4: Yeah, no. Fair enough, fair enough.

Speaker1: When when you had his final concert, a lot of his backing dancers who he chose were some of the best. Dance in the world and remember seeing the interviews of them. Then one of their all of their biggest influences was always him, because maybe because of their age.

Speaker3: But he definitely was special.

Speaker4: They said that. Yeah, an.

Speaker1: Influence on on on dance and also the music that he’s come out with. You think about his like three main albums [01:23:30] musically. Pretty impressive.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: But but there was no Billie Jean.

Speaker4: We’ve got to think back to there was no kid.

Speaker3: Yeah, there was no one who ever told him. Beat it. None of this stuff ever happened. Yeah, for me, it was like comic book stuff. Whereas with Prince, yeah, I felt like everything happened to him that he sang about. Yeah, there was an authenticity. But by the way, pop is pop. Pop is not supposed to be about about authentic stuff. So. So [01:24:00] I get.

Speaker4: It. It’s a bit like.

Speaker1: Watching a movie, you know, the movie is fiction doesn’t need to happen to the past.

Speaker4: It’s just, can they.

Speaker1: Transport you somewhere.

Speaker4: Somewhere.

Speaker1: And show you a little glimpse into something and can you believe it? And if you can do that, that’s cool. You know, like thriller and bad to the kind of best music videos probably ever made. Yeah. And you watch them back today and they still stand up. Still good. I mean, from the 80s they stand up. That’s incredible stuff. Stuff from the noughties doesn’t stand out right now.

Speaker4: Right.

Speaker1: And who are we at? We’ve got a third person. Third person. Okay. [01:24:30] Steve Jobs I am not a fan of Apple, but I’m a fan of Steve Jobs.

Speaker3: I’m not a fan of Apple.

Speaker1: Not really.

Speaker4: No. You don’t have an Apple phone.

Speaker1: I used to I gave it up for a OnePlus, Google, OnePlus. It’s one.

Speaker4: Plus.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker4: Chinese thing.

Speaker1: Chinese company. Yeah.

Speaker4: What’s better than Apple?

Speaker1: It’s it’s pretty much an exact copy.

Speaker3: Us is not better than that.

Speaker1: No, it just doesn’t restrict you to all the different things you need to do. You have to. You have to use their charger. You have to use their computer. They’re always it’s kind of a bit de-conflicted. [01:25:00]

Speaker4: Steve. Why?

Speaker3: Steve Jobs I.

Speaker1: Think, was very I was very taken aback by his biography from Walter Isaacson.

Speaker4: I read it, I thought.

Speaker1: His his his approach to. His work, and his life was very against the grain and people. Walter paints a picture of him being someone you like, but it’s something you can really hate as well. And I thought to myself at the end of the book, you know, has he done humanity a good service or not? You know, having alienated all these employees [01:25:30] and from a business point of view, you know, take a few lessons from that into my own business as to how far to push. And where not to. It’s slightly different in health care, but he would find solutions for things by pushing people beyond breaking point. And I think we need people like that. This needs to be everywhere. But we would not have these products if it wasn’t for him saying to his employer, his programmer and his dev make it happen.

Speaker3: I [01:26:00] think Stanley Kubrick, people talk about him pushing actors beyond the pale, you know, like, and, you know, his.

Speaker4: Movies to tears. Yeah, yeah. Real tears. Actual tears. Yeah.

Speaker1: And they would not he would stand back from the actors and he wouldn’t give them too much direct direction. He would do it through one of his assistant directors. So as a result, he was a slightly feared by the crew. And does that give a better performance? Well, maybe you know, who knows.

Speaker3: The results speak for themselves.

Speaker4: Yeah. I mean.

Speaker1: His films are incredible.

Speaker4: That’s the thing.

Speaker3: Lovely, lovely group.

Speaker1: B, funny, [01:26:30] funny. Dinner.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Annie and Michael Jackson. Yeah.

Speaker4: I’m not sure they know.

Speaker1: Or Steve Jobs, maybe I know Steven Schwarzenegger. No. Know each other.

Speaker4: That’s about it.

Speaker3: The final question, then. It’s kind of weird with someone as young as you, but it’s like a deathbed question on your deathbed. All your friends and family and loved ones around you. Three pieces of advice that you’d leave the world with.

Speaker1: My [01:27:00] first one is not short, but can I can I can give it to you. Prioritise being happy and having a lot of fun. We’re in this life for a period of time and things will happen, but our only job really is to be happy and have a lot of fun in my view. So make sure you just prioritise that. Which sounds selfish but actually think it’s important. Number two, I can’t take full credit for, but I think it rings true. Stay [01:27:30] hungry. Which means. Always look to be. To be better or. Look to progress, be it whatever you’re doing. There was a book which analysed the failure of major corporations, and they they found that invariably when the company started to kind of plateau and get comfortable BlackBerry or something, that’s when they get surmounted by another entity which is really pushing themselves and [01:28:00] behaving like they’re very hungry for success or for for whatever it may be. So that would be my second. Did you watch.

Speaker3: The BlackBerry.

Speaker4: Movie? I did, what did you think? Loved it. Yeah, it was good. Really interesting. Charming.

Speaker1: Amazing, amazing film.

Speaker4: The story.

Speaker1: The story as well.

Speaker3: I think in your case though, that stay hungry. I would if I, if someone was asking me about you having now had this conversation, I’d say you’re very curious. Person you know. So stay curious. It’s for you [01:28:30] to have wanted to figure out that cerec machine in dental school. I think a degree of curiosity, you know, for you to start with a blank slate with your patient and just feel what they’re saying. It takes a level of sort of intellectual curiosity that not everyone has or not everyone keeps, you know? So it’s a it’s lovely advice. What’s your third piece?

Speaker4: Third piece.

Speaker3: I think it’s kind of such an interesting question. I was telling Prav, it’s [01:29:00] perhaps a question that some of it could be, you know, I’ve done this, so you do it too. But another way of answering that question is I didn’t do this, but you should. You know, like when you know yourself really well, that’s that’s another way of answering the question. You know, I tell my kid, hey, I didn’t go to the gym, but you do, you know, for the sake of the argument.

Speaker4: It’s interesting you say that because I’ve.

Speaker1: Always tried to live life, to not have those regrets. Yeah, and it’s hard. It’s [01:29:30] easy to say, but hard to.

Speaker4: Act on for sure.

Speaker1: And that’s why I look back to my six months. And I remember thinking to myself, I’ve got I may have one, three, 6 or 12 months off. And I had a plan for each one, like skeleton plan on paper as to what I would do, where I would go. And and it landed on six. And I just followed that plan.

Speaker4: And it was a quick summary.

Speaker3: Of what you did in that.

Speaker4: Six months, quick.

Speaker1: Oh, so I’ve always wanted to get into mountaineering and I did a little bit with the Navy, you know, small [01:30:00] stuff. So I thought, okay, I’ve got six months, let me see what I can do. So I started with Mont Blanc as a training climb, which was super fun to learn about, kind of all the equipment side of things. And then I did a big one for two months in Nepal, Mt. Manaslu, which is, if you’ve seen 14 peaks with Nims Dai, he was with us out there. He’s it’s one of the 14 peaks, basically. And that was incredible. Just such a great experience with the Sherpas. Lovely.

Speaker4: Had you climbed at all before this?

Speaker1: Nothing high, nothing high altitude. So I’d never used kind of supplementary oxygen [01:30:30] or done rotations until that point, which is why the Mont Blanc climb was a training climb, so physically quite demanding. So I had to do a good amount of training before then. I did some scuba diving with a friend in the Maldives afterwards as a bit of a holiday, and then the final trip was Antarctica in December. In January we’re doing some mountaineering out there, pulling sleds along, getting very cold.

Speaker4: Oh my goodness.

Speaker1: Which was which was awesome.

Speaker4: Oh my.

Speaker3: Goodness. Wonderful.

Speaker4: And you couldn’t.

Speaker1: Couldn’t have done and could have gone Antarctica without having done the high altitude stuff in Nepal. [01:31:00] Because you’re not allowed, you’re too dangerous because you need to have experience in cold environments, tent living because Antarctica has no fixed structures at all.

Speaker4: So is your third piece.

Speaker3: Of advice take a six month sabbatical?

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s kind of along those lines is to not live with any fear of losing something because we really have nothing to lose, although it seems like we do. You don’t want to get into a point where you think, oh, well, I should have done that. I should have tried [01:31:30] that.

Speaker4: Yeah. You know.

Speaker3: I’ve found now I’m getting to that age where you start regretting stuff. Yeah. Like, okay. Much as you try not to. Yeah. The not having gone for something regret. Yeah. Tends to come from a position of fear and just decisions. Decisions that come from a position of fear in general are pretty bad decisions.

Speaker4: And it comes from all.

Speaker1: From the simplest decision as asking someone you like out for a drink. Yeah, all the way up to buying a home or [01:32:00] trying to buy a home or starting a business. All these things, and they all come with risk of rejection, failure and financial ruin. All these things that I’ve kind of been through all the three scenarios and you feel better having even even if it doesn’t go your way.

Speaker4: Yeah. Having tried.

Speaker1: Yeah. You feel better if you tried and failed, if you haven’t tried and failed and you go back and think, oh, well, what if it could have worked, then what?

Speaker4: Yeah, very true. I’d say.

Speaker1: I’d say give it a punt. Take a try, take advice. Be careful. [01:32:30] Don’t be, don’t be, don’t be kind of reckless. Yeah, but give it a try.

Speaker3: Very good advice. It’s been lovely. Lovely chatting with you, man.

Speaker4: It’s been great.

Speaker3: I’ve really, really enjoyed that. Time flew by. Thank you so much for doing that, buddy.

Speaker4: Hey, it’s been great being so open.

Speaker3: Wonderful.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:33:00] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t [01:33:30] forget our six star rating.

British culture is very meme culture. Like, we always like to take the piss. Take the piss. Whereas if you go to America, it’s very opposite, right? It’s like, yo bro, you got this. And I think the problem is both aren’t great because you go to America and you’re told you’re going to be the best at something, and then at 30 years old, you haven’t made it. And it’s like, well, what happened to the American dream, right?

This is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. And today we have the incredible Henry Wade. So Henry is a very, very known content creator. I actually met Henry. I didn’t meet him. This is a funny story I became when I first split up with my first boyfriend, I went to fitness first. It was a bit of a rough gym in Clapham, and I used to see Henry and his twin working out there all the time. And interestingly, I looked at you both and I was like, you just had presence. I just felt like you both were going to do really well. I didn’t even know what you had done. And then serendipity has it. We actually ended up meeting later on in life through friends, etcetera. And I was like, you were the one that was working out of Fitness first, and I had seen his content online. Henry’s extremely hard working. He’s become very successful in what he does. And interestingly, he transitioned from having, you know, quite a sort of generic career, I’d say, and, you know, making it online and, you know, really taking a leap of faith against what his family believes. Because I know you come from family in Cambridge and, you know, saying, like, I’m going to make this work and I’m going to make a career out of content creation. And more recently, he has focussed on fitness as well. Fitness has been a massive part of his life, has been doing marathon running, documenting that as well, which we’re going to cover. So welcome Henry.

Thank you very much. That was a very nice intro, so I really appreciate it. I was like smiling. They’re like, oh, I haven’t had this kind of compliment in a long time. So I really appreciate it.

Well, you know, a lot of love for Henry. We’ve known each other for a while now. So, Henry, I want to start from the beginning, as I do with a lot of people. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. I know you grew up in Cambridge, but tell me about, like, where you come, your background a little bit.

Yeah. So for the record, I’m 31 years old now. He keeps saying that.

Like he’s old. I’m like, do you know how old I am? Okay. Go on.

And I’m initially from Cambridge, so I grew up there and I then moved. Well, sorry, I went to Cambridge. Been there since all the way to college, then went to university and then went travelling and then I moved to London. So yeah, I’ve been grew up and grew up in Cambridge with a family of four, and I’m an identical twin, and I’ve got an older brother and an older sister as well. And then there’s me, the youngest one with mum and dad. So yeah.

Amazing. And you worked in nightlife, didn’t you? So after, was it after or during university?

It was actually during. So when I was at uni, that was the first time I separated from my twin brother. I kind of got the chance to build my own identity a bit and went to university, went to Newcastle, had an amazing time. I be honest, I kind of chose university life because I didn’t really know what I wanted to do next in my career, so I just chose a standard business and marketing course and I kind of went because of the nightlife. I watched one episode of Geordie Shore and thought, this will be epic, like me and Gaz of Geordie Shore, like going to get on anyway. I started becoming a co-promoter because I thought, you know what? This is a great way to meet people, make friends and I then did quite well, became a junior manager and then because I sold so many tickets, I had so many people on my guest list and then I became a senior manager. So I started essentially running my own nights, and it only took me to like a few years ago to really realise how important that job was for me, because while everyone was getting placement years at university and going to like all these amazing companies, which I didn’t actually get, I tried to, but I couldn’t get them. And I actually realised, like the communication skills I learnt during this job, some of the best I’ve ever done in my entire life. Like I can talk to anybody now and it’s I think that’s a really powerful tool to have, and they’re the kind of skills I probably don’t think I’d have got, or having the confidence to go and speak to anyone is I probably won’t have got those skills. If I’d have gone to like a corporate company and kind of just worked and seen how their business runs.

And do you know, that’s interesting. I’m going to I’m going to interject there because I saw a post. So as you as I told you, like the majority of people that tune in with me in Payman are dentists and a lot of them have been confused because within dentistry there’s loads of courses, right? Because obviously clinical skills is like a big part of our career. So, you know, you learn how to do like crowns and veneers and bonding and Invisalign and all the stuff that you know about. But the one thing that they really lack is that communication skill that you said. And even though we go to university for like five, six years or longer, if you want to specialise, they still feel they can’t communicate with people you know, they still feel they can’t talk to patients. Why do you.

Think? When I was a kid, I used to be so scared to go to the dentist? It’s the very thing, isn’t it? Yeah. The dentist is the scary place to go. Like they’re not the nice people. They put their fingers in your mouth and it’s just like all these tools go in. Whereas I think that’s definitely changing now. I think you’re doing a great job in the industry of doing that. And other dentists as well. I know, and.

Your dentist, Henry didn’t choose me, that’s why.

Yeah, but yeah, a couple of you do great. And I think that’s amazing for the industry to kind of change that thing about it. But yeah, as you were saying, I think those communication skills are really, really important. But do you.

Think the communication skills were because you worked in nightlife, or do you think it was because you went to university? Do you see what I mean?

Think it’s a little bit of both. Like when I went to university. As I said before, it was the first time away from my twin and we were always together. So it was always like, oh, okay, I’ll turn up to the party or I’ll turn up to school with Will. And we always kind of had each other to bounce off of, whereas going to university, I had to really come out of my like, oh shit, I haven’t got a twin with me. Yeah, everyone’s going to know me as just Henry. I’ve kind of got to be this, who am I? Like, so I was like, all right, I’ve got to be the communicating and energetic and outgoing guy I think I am. And I was, and I became confident because I had to grow my own confidence and because I didn’t have will. So I was like turning up to university lectures on my own, making friends with those people and those university lectures, heading on nights out and meeting people on nights out. Actually going to university again is one as well, I think really makes you step out of your shell because you are stepping into an environment where there’s no one else you really know, none of your friends are really there, so you kind of just do it by yourself, and you are thrown into a situation where you have to make friends. And I think for everyone who goes to university, I think there’s so much topics right now and people talking about how you don’t need to go to university and you don’t have to be successful to go to university, but I think there’s so many benefits of still going in personal development and self growth. And I know a lot of people, not just myself, have gone to university and been like.

I’m massively pro it, I think, I think I’d be interested to see what you think. Like obviously for vocational degrees like dentistry, medicine, etcetera. Oh, 100%. You got to go. Yeah, totally. But a lot some people say they think it was a complete waste of time. But I think that the connections that you form and the experiences you had, there’s something in that 100%.

I think for me, I’ll be totally honest. I don’t think I learnt that much about business and marketing, like sitting in a room. I think with business you learn by doing, you generally do like I’ve done that through all my content creation. I’ve learnt by doing and if you don’t do it, you never know. So you’ve got to put yourself through the through the process and learn. And then so which is great. And I think that’s perfect. But um. Oh sorry. Where was I?

Perfect. The business and marketing. Yeah.

That’s right. I didn’t really feel I learnt so much from actually doing business and marketing the actual degree, but like I said, the meeting people, the job I did, that was the stuff I really learnt. And I wouldn’t ever say to anyone, not go to university. But yeah, if you want to go, go. But if you don’t, you don’t have to.

But I think as well, maybe it is a stop gap for people that don’t know what they want to do. Yeah, yeah, maybe it is a stop gap because maybe you need that time to go through like your growing pains or, you know, but also like university can equally it was pretty traumatic for me. Like I think being thrown into an environment like I’d never university for me was like a really weird experience because I’d, I’d grown in a multicultural society in central London in a day school. The halls that I was put in was very much like everyone was like from public school. I was like the only brown person. And I was very much, like, treated like in a certain way, like I had all friends, you know, I had a great social life, but it was a different experience. And there was, there was, there was like a kind of difficulty and like somewhat, but obviously that shaped me as a person as well. So I think, you know, there’s definitely like pros and cons to it. But yeah, what I want to know as well is you’re an identical twin. Yeah. Right. And I don’t know if you know, like as an I’m really interested either one of you about studies because being an identical twin is that difficult. And like in terms of like identity, you remember there was a documentary. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, either one of you where there was triplets. Yeah. That was amazing. I can’t remember.

Three identical strangers. Yeah, I haven’t.

Actually seen it, but I’ve heard it’s amazing.

It’s amazing.

So basically, the therapist keeps telling me to watch it. Yeah.

Yeah.

So so so so it’s really amazing because those three, those those triplets were separated at birth. It has a dark turn in the end because it was a social experiment by someone that kept doing these experiments. And when they got reunited, it was all great. And then there was a huge problem with like identity crisis, etcetera. Do you think that, like biologically there is something about being a twin, a triplet or whatever, you know, and how it affects who you are and who you believe you are? And like whether you have that sense of like being oneself.

Oh, that’s such a good question because no one will ever know unless they’re an identical twin. What it’s physically like to be an identical twin, right? Yeah. And growing up, Will and I always had this thing about us where we weren’t really known as Henry or Will. It was always the way twins. Oh, it’s the two twins. The two twins. And in school, if one of us did something right, or most, most of the time, if one of us did something wrong, then it always threw back on the other person. So if we all got told off in a class that teachers instantly going to categorise him as being naughty and they’re going to think I’m naughty as well, because we come in pairs, right? Yeah. Very normal. We pushed down the pram together. Oh, those two look so sweet. Do you know what I mean? It’s never like oh, one of you or whatever. And then, um, as I said earlier, the only time we really got to find ourselves as our own identity was when we went to university. But the funny thing is, by, yeah, we were building our own, building our own identity and becoming our becoming our self. What was funny was we still did the exact same thing. So he did a business course. We both began our first year working at Nando’s. So? So did he. So did I. And then we left Nando’s both. Club promoters both got promoted to junior manager. And then it was weird because those two companies, we became like top of those companies, both knew each other as well.

So it was like, oh, we tried to become ourselves, but then we kind of have our self identity, but we can’t forge back into it. And then when travelling together, we got home from travelling, went to London. We both had similar kind of jobs to begin with whilst we were becoming creators, and then we realised we’re probably better off together. I think the thing with being a twins is you’re very competitive and growing up like Will and I both wanted to always be the winning one, whether it be grades or 100 metre races or whatever. We did all sports and it would always be like, I want to beat Will, but I want him to come second by like five, just just a bit. But I don’t want him to beat me. And it was every race, every run, every football team. We wanted to get picked first, but over him will be the captain or whatever. But the older we got, we started to really compete and it made us get to who we were. Like we did really well in sports and achievements and academics. We weren’t so bad either. However, we realised instead of like keep battling and competing, collaborating with each other so much more beneficial. And that’s when we started to grow, like our Instagram and TikTok following by actually being together. Because don’t get me wrong, it’s cool being a white male in today’s industry. However, there are so many other tall white males doing what I do in fitness and fashion.

So what can make you really stand out from the crowd? For me, I’m very fortunate to have an identical twin, so and it’s great. And we are best friends. Like you’ve heard. I’ve heard horror stories of twins having like hating each other, whereas Will and I, we get on so, so well. We’ve. Yeah, don’t get me wrong, we bicker like 13 year old boys still, which is very family. But we’re definitely learning learning to navigate that a lot better. And I think that’s so important. I think we always will in our entire lives because, yeah, I never talk to Carmen. How I sometimes talk to Will, and it sometimes takes me to realise, like if he leaves something in the sink, I’ll go will clean it up. Whereas if Carmen did that, my girlfriend, I’d be like, I’ll just grab it and put it in the dishwasher. But because he’s my brother, I feel like I need to tell him. However, I’ve like now started to realise I look at that and go, is this worth picking a fight for? No it’s not. Pick it up, put it in the dishwasher. Like if I wouldn’t talk to him like that, my girlfriend like that, why should I talk to him like that? Just because he’s my brother, I shouldn’t. And. Yeah, so. But it’s it’s a head game because like I said, I’ve known him my entire life. I’ve been in the womb with him. Like we are so close. But can I ask you something?

Do you know if biologically there’s any studies to show, like whether, like, you can ever fully be, like, separate or separated? Like, is there any studies around twins? You might not know this I don’t.

Know, do you know? Well, I thought, you know, all this stuff about gut microbiome. Yeah. And the guy was saying that his his research interest was twins because twins end up getting different diseases. And his question was, why do twins get different diseases if they’re genetically the same? Environmentally very similar. I’ve got something for.

You there, like Will. My family has this, I don’t know.

One second. That was all right. Okay. Go ahead.

My brother has this really bad eye condition called keratoconus, I think. I think that’s right. Maybe I’ve pronounced it wrong. So if anyone on here knows that, please pronounce it correctly.

Keratitis.

Similar, but I’m not sure. But basically it basically means the his eyes, the pupils are shaped, I think like footballs instead of rugby balls or the other way around. I can’t remember which one it is. And the doctor is like the number one surgeon who tests who does his eyes for him, because we had to go privately, and because it was so he got so bad, he had to be jumped into hospital straight away and put under the knife and have it sorted. It got that bad and the doctor was like, we need to get you twin in here ASAP because he’s going to have something and it’s so funny that I don’t have it. And I still now get tested every 18 months and the doctor goes to me. I’m still have no idea why you don’t have it. And they’ve realised it’s in my system, but it hasn’t quite triggered. So Will’s will got it and it triggered, whereas I haven’t had it and it triggered and he’s still so shocked, which is so weird.

So so so this this researcher found the microbiome was very different in twins, so different bacteria. And so he was he was blaming, he was saying, well that’s where he could see that the effect of different bacteria on people. When you look at the effect of different bacteria on twins, because the one thing that’s very different in the measurements between twins is the bacteria that lives in their gut.

Yeah, maybe. I think there’s so many studies now coming up about gut and how it’s one of the main factors. Controlling everything, controlling everything. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s become only in the last real year. So it’ll be interesting to see.

Well, we’ve talked as well. You’ve had a lot of like stuff with your gut. You know, we kind of had that conversation and you know a lot around that with mental health, which I want to go into 100%. But before we actually delve into that. So I just want to know, how did you rise? I know you might think like, I don’t say this, but how did you rise to TikTok and Instagram fame? Oh so and like, how did you make that transition? Because a lot of people want to know that. They want to know how to, like, make a living out of just being a content.

So in America, the number one most wanted job now apparently is like a YouTuber, TikToker, Instagram like an influencer. People want to be kids.

Yeah.

For kids. Your kids too.

Not my kids, but kids in general.

Yeah, your kids are probably all right, I think. I think the thing is, people see this lavish life we all post about, like, you get the free products, you get paid to work with these amazing brands. Your life is sorted, like, almost like you get free dinners and you think it’s all glamorous. And don’t get me wrong, it can be at times, but there is a very stressful side to it that I think a lot of people don’t don’t show. But we’ll go. We’ll move on to that. But the question you initially asked was, how did I rise to stardom, essentially, as you said. So back in, oh, when I was travelling the world, because obviously TikTok came after Instagram. So this is our Instagram story. We were travelling Australia and we and all the world.

And you’re working in nightlife still then? No, no this.

Is we packed our bags came backpackers. And this was when Facebook was big. Instagram was kind of just coming up and it was like Twitter, everyone’s on Twitter promoting the news or whatever. And we basically got to Australia after doing Cambodia, Thailand, all the Southeast Asia countries. And honestly, we were just alcoholics, like all we did was drink booze, get pissed and not really see these countries for what they were. And we got to Australia and Will and I were in such bad physical shape, like we were weighty. And I was like, what the hell? I went for a run and almost puked. And I’ve never been this like this before. I’ve just been drinking for six months. I had one night off in like six months because all I was, all me and my mates were doing was getting pissing in Thailand or whatever. And don’t get me wrong, it was amazing. Still had the best time ever and I’ll never change that experience. But I got to Australia and Will and I, we suddenly went from being in the worst shape ever to being so obsessed with fitness and got into the best shape of our lives. We were so lean, like 4% body fat, like we were walking down the Aussie beach. These fitness trainers have been on the front of mental health for telling us we’re too lean, we need to put on some weight and we’re going, no, not lean enough, not lean enough.

I’m sure we all wanted the six pack of dreams, which you never we thought we didn’t have yet, but we did looking back and we were like, right, let’s start documenting some fitness and doing these, like twin workout things. And we had a page, the Weight Twins. Then we had our own personal Instagram as well, and we then left Australia and we started travelling back. And instead of seeing the world being like alcoholics again, we thought, let’s really like be normal. Like do it well, get up for sunrises, do yoga’s, do runs on the beach or whatever, and see this place with the real beauty it is, and you don’t always have to be pissed essentially on the on the booze. So we picked up a camera in Japan, picked up a little canon in Australia, and we started documenting our journey. Just like selfies, we didn’t have a clue how to use this equipment, and I was YouTubing how to use Lightroom and Photoshop and change colours and stuff, and I was making everything oversaturated, and we started documenting and and doing all these things. And it was, it was quite funny at the time was all our friends were commenting on our photos being like, lol, this is a joke. We started a website as well called the twins.com and where we wanted to write blogs on our travels and everyone was like I was getting emails.

I remember the first ever email I got through it was you’re a joke from a fake account being like, you’re never going to make it. This is the biggest laughing thing I’ve ever heard, and I’ll never. I wish I still had a screenshot of that, but obviously I was so embarrassed at the time. Like I was like, am I doing the wrong thing? And it makes you really question whether you’re doing the right thing. And but luckily I had willed Fall Back On. He was like, when he had a bad day, I was there to pick him up and go, no, don’t worry, just keep going, keep going. When I had a bad day, it was the opposite. He was the one picking me up, which was great. So we started documenting our journey and we got back to London, Cambridge, where we lived, and we had about maybe ten, ten, 11,000 followers by this time. And I remember we were ordering these clothes because we had cool wardrobes at home. We really wanted to get back into our main fashion and we were like taking photos on our back garden. And we were like, what are we doing? This is a waste of time. We need to be in London. And we ended up both moving to London and literally had about £2,000 in my bank. Not much money at all, and Will had probably less because he spent a lot more and we both lived in different areas in the most tiniest bedsits in the world.

I had a single bed and I was living with five other people with one bathroom, and I remember just having to bang on the door, please let me into the bathroom. We used to have to literally run outside, sometimes just to go to the bathroom, because I was so desperate because this, this girl next door would take so long and we were like, right, how can we really continue this Instagram and content creation we’re doing? And but we need to make a living, right? So we had to get a job part time. He worked for an events company, and I worked for a start up company with a drinks company, and we’re both working five days a week. And I was like, right, we still need to create content. So every day we would like essentially go for a meeting. And that meeting would be like, we would go for a meeting with some drinks brand or whatever, and I’ll go for a meeting with like Tesco’s CEO, one of my clients, and I really would just be sneaking my camera out and going to meet Will and shooting around London. And then also we’d do it in the evenings, we’d do it on the weekends all the time. And we were like, right? So we kept shooting content.

And whilst this was happening in the evenings, there was always events on H&M, Topman, All Saints or whatever these events and fashion brands would be. And we were like, right, we want to work with these brands, but how can we get put in the face of them? And we were networking with other creators at this time, finding out how London works and. What their experiences of, or if we wanted to collaborate with them and shoot content with them. And we’ll get sent all these events. But we weren’t invited to them. So we would just be like, should we just turn up and see what happens? Because what’s the worst that’s going to happen to us? We’re just going to get a no, and they’re going to just go, all right, screw it. We’ll go for a drink by ourselves. Whatever. Yeah. So we would turn up to these events and our analogy was who’s going to turn down two well-dressed six foot three lads, and every time nine out of ten will get in even without an invite, because we’ll just show them like the thing and all your name’s not on the list are. We’re so, so, so weird. Like, anyway, what we’ll do when we were in that room would not just go for the booze and go for the free nibbles, which 18 year old Henry would have done.

It was right. Who’s the PR marketing? Who’s the PR manager? Who’s the marketing manager and who’s the head of brand? And I want to meet that person in five minutes. Get their email, have a good chat with them, show them the content I do right there and then, and then schedule a meeting with them. Within two weeks, I’ll have a meeting with that person, whether it be coffee or a lunch, and then within like a week after that, I’ll have free clothes from them, and then after that I’ll put you have a job with them as well. I love that that was for me. Like I think now moving forward, I can put that what I did there into other areas of my life as well, and other businesses I do because it’s the same thing. It’s all like you initially start doing things for free. If you’re a dentist, you may want to do something free for your free for a client. Show them. Show someone what work you can do, how good these teeth are. And then someone sees that and they go, oh, I like that. I’ll then pay for it. It’s the same with any business. It’s the same kind of process. And then our following was going up and up and we started to get more followers. And then we got a few viral videos and then that kind of blew up.

And how did you know back then in Australia where you started filming that that’s what you want to do? I mean, because it wasn’t influencer land, wasn’t exactly what it is now. Yeah. Which year are we talking? Oh.

Wow. This must have been 25. So about seven years ago maybe.

Okay. So there was.

Something it was just started I think. Well, and I would say we’re phase 2 or 3. There was a phase one who were like.

That was that was your stated goal, you to become a big on these platforms?

It wasn’t necessarily a goal. It was more of a we wanted, didn’t want to be pretty boys just prancing our thing around because that’s quite easy to be done. But we wanted to offer value where we could because I think there’s a fine balance of offering value, but also showing off on content creation. And it’s okay to do both because a lot of people want that. Oh, I wish I had that live or oh, I wish I had that kind of moment. But then also if you offer value, it’s like, okay, that was that was a good piece of content. So Will and I were initially started when we’re in Australia was like, right. We saw everyone in the UK posing on the streets of London and show off fashion, and I was just and no one was English, no one had a personality. It was like I just saw all these people who were from Europe doing it in England, and I was like, well, why are they all doing it? There’s no English British lads doing this. Like and I think there was.

Probably a taboo though, because you said even like people were taking the piss out of you like, oh yeah, totally. Your friends.

Always do.

But but that’s the thing. But I think that’s a male thing, right. Because they see they see like that career or doing that stuff online as being very feminine I think. Do you know what I mean? As in like and then.

It’s just that I think it’s also like British culture is very meme culture. Like we always like to take the piss, take the piss. Whereas if you go to America, it’s very opposite, right? It’s like, yo bro, you got this. And I think the problem is both aren’t great because you go to America and you’re told you’re going to be the best at something, and then at 30 years old, you haven’t made it. And it’s like, well, what happened to the American dream? Right? So they need a bit of like downgrading, whereas we need a bit more of that boost because everything’s a meme. You get taken the piss out all the time, but the way Will and I stopped. That was just like we encouraged each other and we’re like, we know what we want. We had our goal, we had our view and we had our vision. And if you’ve got that, I think sometimes when people look at you and laugh, it is one of the best things that can happen to your career. It’s one of the best things that happen because you know you’re on the right path. It’s like that old saying.

In dentistry Rona’s managed it. Yeah, but but I come across hundreds of dentists and I asked him, do you have an Instagram? And they say, no.

Yeah, so do I. I’ve actually got a friend who’s a dentist right now. And I said, why don’t you set up your Instagram friend? Her name’s Hannah. She’s my girlfriend’s, one of my best friend’s girlfriend, best friend. And I’m like, I’m like, it’s like a hairdresser set up an Instagram account for hair.

But then the reason why often there’s a they don’t want to share their work, you know, because everyone’s very critical. The judgement, the judgement. Very true, very true. And and often it’s being uncomfortable in front of camera. So how did you get over these questions or did that not bother you at all? You were like, no.

Before Henry goes on with that, his story reminded me of mine in terms of like people say, how did you get on TV and the easy cop out way? As you know, people say she paid PR. I’m like, hun, I didn’t have PR back then. I went outside ITV studio and I stood outside that studio for about 5 or 6 hours until Zoe Williams came out. The doctor. Yeah, yeah. And she came out.

Telling me that story. I was like.

I had messaged her loads to meet me, and she took a chance and she met me for coffee and I said, I want to do this. And she was like, well, why do you want to do it in the same way that you just asked Henry? Why? Did you want to do the content? For me, it was the bigger vision. And I’m going to be completely honest. I wanted to leave a legacy. I wanted to leave a legacy within my field. I didn’t want to be in a life where I was like, I got up, I drilled a few teeth, I did a few small makeovers. Impact. And the fact is, no matter what anyone says, platforms such as social media, TV, radio, etcetera, they give you that platform to reach more people and therefore have a bigger impact. And I’m not talking just about a narcissistic way, but it’s just that value add that you just said to me, it’s giving value to people.

But it’s a particular flavour of impact. So I want to have impact. That’s why I started this company. Yeah, but it’s a particular flavour where you’re you are the product. And that’s what a lot of people suffer with, with you two don’t.

So what you said there about offering value is so difficult in the world I live in, I think because there are times where I’ll create a piece of content and I’ll sit there and I’ll go, I really like it, but where’s the value? There? And I’ll show a friend it or I’ll show you it and they’ll go, but it’s so entertaining. That’s the value. And I’m like, is it, is it like, yeah. And I’m like, is it like, should I not be doing. I go to the gym all the time. Five best ways to grow your chest as a male or something because there’s value there but may not be entertaining, but.

Education, education, entertainment but there’s different.

Value. Well, yeah, there you go. But I sometimes struggle to see that because I’m always I think we’re always critiques of our own work. And what you’re saying there about why not all dentists set up their, their accounts. Because we are the worst critique. Like, you have a spot on your chin. Who sees it? You. Does anyone else see it? No. Because we we worry about so much what other people think about us. And it’s it’s detrimental to our success.

But validation is a form of addiction. Right. And I’m going to go out there because everyone’s like, what’s your addiction, Raina? You don’t drink, you don’t take drugs, you don’t, you know, and I’ll tell you right now, I’m going to say to the world, my addiction is validation. So I do get a dopamine hit when I get approval online on something. You know, if a video does well, I’m like, that’s done. Well, great. I have a great day. Comments. You look good. This is I love this. Your work looks great right? Because that is mine.

I thought you.

Didn’t like it when someone said you looked good because I’m not Trustpilot or something.

Now, I said you don’t need to leave. Oh, here we go, here we go. I said, you don’t need to.

Ever since I heard you say that, I don’t tell you if you look good anymore.

So he basically I said to him, no, I said, when people give you well, this is the thing, right? Because on the one hand, and I’m sure Henry can relate to me right on the one. Like I’m saying, you know, when people give negative views, I’m like, I don’t need your opinion. I’m not. What’s the one for the travel agents, the reviews. You know, I’m talking about travel.

Tripadvisor.

Tripadvisor. I’m not TripAdvisor. I didn’t ask you for a review. Just you. I mean. Yeah, but that would be like, you know, if you get some kind of review, someone would be like, you look much better with brown hair. Like, oh, I don’t like your copper hair. Do you know? I mean, of course it’s an opinion. But then, like, at the same time, if people are like, you look great, it validates the decision I’ve made.

We love that. That’s why. Why do we go out? Why do we get a new haircut? Why do we? Why do we go to do our teeth? Why do we dress up? Well.

I thought you didn’t want it in either direction.

Shower me. Show me the compliments.

Look. Great. What was.

What was interesting? What you said there about validation. You want validation is something that I’ve realised about myself is wanting. Wanting to impress. So when I was a kid growing up, I was. Will and I were always in trouble. We were the naughty kids at school and we always wanted to impress our mom and dad every time something bad happened. So give you an example when I was, and I’ve got these childhood memories in me distilled and it’s probably who I who I’ve why they’ve shaped me, who I am today. Because I remember being told by our like when I was in year two or year three, my teacher head teacher said, you are you don’t know the difference between right and wrong. And she told that to my parents in front of me. And she said, my mum and dad were distraught, not knowing as a kid I didn’t know the difference between right or wrong, whatever came to year six. And the woman told my mum and dad, I’m so sorry about making that comment. Your two boys are the politest I’ve ever met and things like that. And so we changed her perspective. But we always. So we always, always wanted to impress. So growing up, I’ve always wanted to impress. So when I run a marathon, I want to get a good time because I want to impress people watching me.

When the content I create, I want to get loads of likes. I want people to be impressed. So now my growing up, I was wanting to press my mum and dad. I was predicted E’s and F’s in GCSEs. I got a B’s and C’s and that for me was like I told you Mum and Dad. I knew I was going to get those F’s predicted. So there’s my proof. I’ve impressed them by doing that. Got into a great university, impressed them by doing that, got a good degree, impressed them by doing that, got set myself up a business and doing what I do in London, and managed to bring my mum down to do a fragrance profiling with some of the best high end profiles where she gets to pick out a £200 bottle. So I’m going to buy for her. That for me is impressing my family. And so now instead of impressing my family all the time, I feel I need to do it to my followers to impress them with good content. Or. And that’s similar to the validation thing. And it’s not a bad thing. It’s just I want to impress how? And I do it for me instead of do it for others. Sometimes it can be okay to do well.

Carrying on from that. Now let’s have let’s be real, right? There’s a dark side to social media, and you have your career right now is very much with your face, your body, you know, at the forefront. Has your mental health taken a turn since you have exposed yourself on social media, or do you ever worry about certain things being online?

I think it’s such a good question because as I said earlier to you guys, people, this is the number one job people want to do in their like now as kids, they look up to social media influencers more than they look up to actors and celebrities they look up to. They look up to influencers because we see so much of their life. But what you don’t see is always the bad parts or the. And a lot of people are doing it better now. A lot more people are showing you the struggles they do have in this industry, because there are so many like I have been, social media doesn’t sleep like sometimes as a dentist or as a corporate person. You can close the laptop at 5:00. That’s it’s another day tomorrow, right? Social media is 24 hours like it does not sleep seven days a week, 365 days a year. And I am trying to put out content. And if I don’t put out for six seven days, I’m forgotten about, like I guaranteed. Like if your favourite influencer deleted their account tomorrow, you may for a second go, oh that sucks, but you’ll find another one within three three days or two minutes. It’s just like, and I hate this. Like Kobe Bryant, one of the best basketball players in the world. Unfortunately, he died. But there will be other best players in the world. There were basketball still live on. It’s the same as me as my job. It will still live on if I don’t create content.

But I need to keep creating because that’s my job and my work. And if I stop, then I’m not going to be at the money or anything. So it’s like all the all grow my brand and it can keep you up at night. There’s new platforms coming, there’s new kids popping off. Your content you created the other day doesn’t get as many views. The algorithm isn’t working in your favour or something or some something out there isn’t working to your favour. And then you start questioning going am I? Do people not like me? Is my content not good? Is Instagram just hating me or is TikTok hating me? And then you start seeing other people do something and you’re like, oh, maybe I should follow that content. Should I start doing that now? And it’s like, no, stick in your lane. And it’s so hard because you see other people’s success and you want to get a bit of that success. So you may start dabbling into that type of content. But I think it’s really important to stick in your lane and keep authentic. Keep authentic. But oh, can you be authentic on Instagram now because so and these creating platforms because you’re selling yourself to an algorithm. Like sometimes you want to create the content you want to create because because in that moment you’re like I really enjoyed creating that. And that’s authentic. But then when you but then it doesn’t perform well, you go, oh, that must be the algorithm.

I think thinking dentistry there is like that risk of that. Right. And we see it as well. Like there’s a lot of disgruntlement because there’ll be like the dentists that are sort of like a little bit more on the geeky side, the academic side. And they like the content that’s like really like, like the tooth zoomed in like a million and then like, oh, let’s talk about this. And then they hate on the Instagram dentist like me that do better because their content is a little bit more clickbait or it’s just a small makeover. But I understand my audience. I’m not there to impress dentists. I’m there to impress patients. I’m there to get a following of people like they want to engage, because also I’m going to lose a big part of my audience and some patients that come to me, they don’t feel afraid to cry to me in the chair or like, hold my hand or something. And the reason why they don’t feel that is because they see the like type of authenticity that I put out on social media, so they don’t feel embarrassed. Do you know what I mean? But your personality as well?

Totally. So when I see you on Instagram, I don’t just see teeth, I see Rhona’s personality. And that’s when I meet you in person as well. I see that personality because it’s exactly what you are.

I feel like you’re massively needy for for professional validation.

Oh, totally. But I’m not because you.

Don’t want to be known as only Instagram. Good at Instagram.

Just like Henry said. What I resonate was is that like the teacher said, he was going to get E’s and F’s. Dentists thought I didn’t have any clinical skills, so I upped my clinical skills. I made them better. I’m pretty good now. Do you know what I mean? Now you have.

An entire dentistry and have people dentists working for you. That’s how good you are. Yeah, but the thing is.

Is that I still have. But there’s still those other people that are like, I’m looking at like the one fifth of this, like, angulation of the enamel or whatever, but I, I’m, that.

Means nothing to me, by.

The way. You know, like what.

What is that English.

But the point is, I know that my work is good because patients as well can now tell the difference between a good before and after. I don’t think before they really could. But now people are like, I like you because you put translucence in your teeth. They understand things a bit better. Do you see what I mean? And I think that of course, like Payman asked me earlier. Right. Because as you know, I’ve released my own course. Yeah. Interestingly enough, the majority of people that bought the course was on the first day I released it. 95% were young females that had been on the courses of loads of famous dentists. Why did they choose me as an. You’ll know them. I’m not going to say why. I said, well, why did you go? Why do you want to do my course? Because they also feel that there is not a strong female leader within the field, and they feel that I’m more personable when it comes to stuff, because as part of my course, I have like, you can do like one on one and contact me on WhatsApp and send me and they like that. So the interesting thing is with the cohort, because he said to me, are you getting criticism for your course? And I’m like, of course I’m going to get criticism, but I don’t care.

I don’t think you’re doing anything right if you aren’t getting criticism.

Yeah, no, 100%.

You can’t please everyone. Like even content I do like 50% may like it, 50% may not. And that’s okay. Like you can have things you can’t be. You can’t have everyone like everything you do. So I think the great thing.

About content is it finds its own audience in a way. Very true. Yeah. I mean, when you said mental health as you remember, it wasn’t really my subject. He was.

A bit like, why.

It’s not my subject. So I know it was your subject.

Do you suffer from it? Do you ever suffer from anxiety? No, I.

Realise I do now.

He does now he does. Before this I me damaged goods babes on this before.

But then. But then. But then because. Because I had the experience with the previous pod that, you know, we weren’t trying to do anything. We were just having some conversations. And those conversations found audience.

That’s so true.

And this pod will find audience. And then what you do find and people who are not into it will stop following you. Okay, so here’s the thing.

This is the one way I always bring it back to you. Right? And why I think people like us probably will be successful in life is because there is still a cult out there who believes the world is flat. And if they can build a following, even though it’s scientifically proven that the world isn’t flat and they can build a following and a cult around it.

That’s a nice way of saying.

Someone will buy your product or will follow you like it’s so so facts like yeah, so.

But so those because I think like one of the important thing is like you took that leap of faith, Henry. And I think, like even so many young dentists, as he said, are so afraid to start content production. But I always say start with something. Even if you get two likes, don’t worry about it. Just do it. You know what I mean? So what advice would you give for people that want to start a similar journey? Because this could be within any field, right? Because you could be. There are doctors, by the way, Dr. Ali is her name. His name is he’s the one. He’s the one. He’s huge. He gave up medicine and he didn’t.

Yeah. My friend was on his podcast the other day. He said.

Listen, do you know about him?

He’s done great.

So he’s done amazing.

I watched a video on him this morning.

So he has a YouTube academy. He gave up medicine. He did a video. He’s brilliant.

He’s brilliant.

And he did a video on how much he made. Like it was like £50 doing his NHS work and how much he was making on like on, like on that. And I’m not saying not everyone’s money driven. Right. So it shouldn’t be about that. But he had a very transparent video about like this is what I do. This is how much I make. This is why I do it. But for those that want to start that sort of journey and question number one is what would you say is the most important thing to start? How do you start it? Second question is, do you have to have a certain amount of mental resilience to do it?

Okay. Number one, I would definitely say be okay with being shit. And what I mean by that is you have to start off being shit because your first 100 posts will be shit like your first 200 maybe shit and you may got any like get no likes, but you have to be consistent. Like you may not be successful by being consistent, but there is a 100% fact and chance you won’t be successful if you’re not consistent, right? Which is so true. So you may have the risk of not being successful if you if you don’t try it, but you’re never going to know if you aren’t. So you just got to make sure you keep going. And my dad says this saying all the time, and we did it when I had exams. If you throw enough shit at the blanket, eventually some of it’s going to stick and some of it will. So you’ve got to keep going and then you learn from it. Every post you do, every podcast you do, you learn a little bit more about it. And it may take you a thousand podcasts before you suddenly get that curve of success and it goes up. Right. But then if you if you quit it, 999, you’d have never known. And it’s like that hole that, you know, that photo, someone digging for the gold. And then he stops at the very end when he would have been there. So yeah, I think consistency is 100% key. Like be consistency, always be consistent. And what.

About mental resilience do you think you.

Get? I think you definitely need it because you’re going to get no likes at the beginning. You’re going to get no listens on your podcast. You’re going to get no views on your YouTube channel. And then you’re saying to yourself, oh, I’m putting all this work in, I’m doing all these camera angles, I’m doing this and I’m getting nothing back from it. And you have to have that resilience to keep pushing on. It’s in it’s almost self-belief, like if you don’t have that self belief in yourself, then how are you going to push forward and convince the world that they should watch your stuff? And if you have that self belief, then you’ve just got to keep going and going and going. And I think that will that will push you on.

So. So now you’ve got this audience that’s engaged with you. What are the steps to monetising that.

And okay, so there’s a lot of ways you can monetise on social media. And it depends what. Of Omicron. So number one is brand deals. So it’s good to do your. The content you do should align with the brands you want to work with. So for example I’m massive into my health and fitness. I’m never going to go work with McDonald’s because unless they unless they wanted me to promote some sort of healthy, healthy thing, then maybe that’ll be right. However, 90% of the time I’m never.

Salads have more calories than the burgers. Just saying.

There you go. Yeah, maybe they do, but I’m not going to listen. I’m not going to hold a burger and be like the new Quarter Pounder, even if they pay ten grand, because it’s probably not really worth it. Maybe it is to some people, but everyone’s got their price now, so you’ve got to align yourself with those certain brands. I think you can also get paid from, like Rona is doing courses. It’s a great way. And then you can set up other things like plans. You’ve got a website you can set up, fitness brand. If you’re a fitness fitness courses, you’re in fashion. You can set up your own clothing brand. Yeah. These endorsement product endorsement. Yeah. So do you have.

Someone who represents you?

I have a manager. And that manager kind of deals with all my logistics and deals with all the brands I work with, and can also get me brand work as well. And they’ve been great. They’re lovely people and I’ve been with them for 3 or 4 years. And yeah, so me and my twin are the same manager, and then there’s different ways of making money on different platforms like TikTok actually have a marketplace where and a creator thing where if your video blows up, you can get some money. It’s very small, but YouTube’s even better. Youtube has a platform where if you create for that brand that that you can get thousands of pounds if your video goes off because the YouTube algorithm is great, like your videos, can you remake money? So your video, if you make a video five way five, if you go on Veganuary, it’s always big Veganuary right? If you make a video. Five recipes for making Veganuary, which are cheap. Let’s say that that video will be big from January and you made it so 2019. But also if it’s gone well in the algorithm, it will pick back up the next year because people will be researching again. Veganuary recipes oh 2020 2021 so that video could kill it as seven years later. So yeah, so there’s a lot of ways to make to monetise monetise it.

Yeah. I’m going to ask you something. I like to be controversial. Right. Oh here we go. So you were talking about platforms right. And platforms that control the livelihood as you know. Like what’s your view on censorship. Right. Because also you think about a case like with the recent news of like Russell Brand at the moment with what’s going on and the allegations YouTube have pulled him. Right. They’ve actually stopped and YouTube was his biggest source of income. Okay. So he’s now saying because Rumble’s the new platform where they don’t allow any censorship, right? Yeah. Do you believe so? First of all, do you ever get scared? I mean, you’re not obviously. Henry, I know you you know, you’re not a controversial slash immoral person or whatever. Do you do you ever get worried that you’re going to get cancelled online or not? Really. And secondly, do you believe that censorship is a good thing or not.

To censor yourself when you’re talking? Yeah.

Do you feel like, oh, I’m going to actually like I’m not going to.

Say say that.

Say that. Yeah.

Listen, I think the world we’re in now, if you are so straight line and boring, your content isn’t ever going to get, you’ve got to be left or right polarising. You have to be like, look at Piers Morgan, but you’ve got to be very careful about what you say, because if you aren’t educated in that topic enough and you say something which is one thing or the other, then it’s more likely you’re going to get cancelled. Like the reason why James Smith does it so well and Piers Morgan does it so well is because they are so good with words and they’re educated on the topics they talk about, so they’re less likely to get cancelled. Whereas if it was someone like me and let’s take an example, it’s the politics and you vote Labour over conservative or vice versa. And you document, oh, I voted conservative because of this, but do I really know that much about politics? No. But if I made my opinion about it that I’ve voted on conservative, then people are probably going to go, well, you’re right, you’ve clearly uneducated. And that’s the thing I only ever would be talking commenting on or something if I’m well educated on the topic. It’s the same with all the I can’t remember what it was. Now, somewhere in one of these Middle East countries where the woman couldn’t women couldn’t wear their masks.

No, no, no, they couldn’t wear the burqa or something like that.

I remember what it was, but these women couldn’t wear their hair. And people, if I were to make because people were DMing me going, why aren’t you why aren’t you commenting on this? And I’m going, it’s got nothing to do with me because I don’t know this industry. I don’t know it until I’ve done my education on it, and I now know to talk about it, then I’m okay to make a comment, whether it be this or this, but people on their podcasts and I watch it all the time, or on their Instagram stories or whatever, they’ll make a comment about something and I’m like, bro, just don’t even and I stay out of it.

I got trolled about something like this. This is really interesting. So this is the little insight because you were like, what were you getting trolled about? I get asked quite a lot to go on national television to make comments about like the NHS crisis. I worked on the NHS for ten years. Okay, so I did my I paid my dues. Like I said, I worked really hard. I left in 2020 for like health reasons. Up to 2021 I was doing NHS work. Yeah. Now people. So basically there’s like a meme account. On Instagram, which does really well. It’s a Dental medium account run by young boys. Young Dental boys. And basically they said that they were sort of the opposite of what you were saying. They were saying like, are you not like, doesn’t it infuriate you so much that these private dentists that don’t realise the shitstorm of what’s going on are going on TV and commenting on what’s going on, right? I got sent it by a few people because they were like, I think this is targeted at you. And I was like, listen, I don’t care, because at the end of the day, if they want to go out and speak about it, go out. There is freedom of speech. If you want to talk about it on your social media, do. Why do news channels approach me? Because I’m vocal about stuff. Because I’m the one that’s out there saying I left because I was depressed and suicidal working on the NHS and I can. I stood up to Jeremy Kyle, who was basically saying, dentists are greedy and that’s why they leave the NHS. I’m putting myself in that position. How does he know.

He doesn’t work in?

Exactly. But the thing is, is that after that interview he was like, I can see your point now. I found it really weird because I was like, they can say all they want and they control and whatever, but what they were saying is the opposite to you. They were saying, because I’m not in it. Whereas, you know, the people that are saying to you, you can’t win, you know, I mean, because they’re saying, why aren’t you commenting? You know, so.

There’s no the thing is, no matter what you do in this world, there’s going to be controversy. Like this girl the other day actually posted a photo in her lingerie in a public street, street. And it was a I my first initial thoughts were it’s a sick photo. Yeah. Whereas the comments under it were had to unfollow because of this, this, this. And I’m like, what is wrong with the world? Like and my older brother is actually a teacher, and the things he has to now do about child safety and security is so different to what we had in our lives back in school, where the teacher could probably hit us still and it would be okay, but now it’s just it’s all so different and it’s like you do one thing wrong in any industry or make one comment about something and you’re more likely to be cancelled.

I saw I saw a thing. It was it was like a picture of Kate Moss in the 90s with Calvin Klein next to her. They were taking a photo in his hand. Was like on her, on.

Her, on her arse or.

Something just above her arse. Yeah. And the comments that came in, who’s the creepy guy with the octopus hands? Yeah. Octopus. Calvin Klein, a gay guy. Yeah. Number one, Calvin Klein. Yeah, he probably designed that very dress. And his hands have been all over, like, to fix that thing, and and, you know, the the notion that, you know, maybe the person watching it was offended or had had some, maybe something had happened to that person.

Okay, here’s another thing.

Could have happened. Yeah. Someone someone might have put their hand inappropriately on on that person. That doesn’t mean that was going on in that photo. But like.

It’s just that pictures tell a thousand words, right? Everyone’s got their own opinion about it. But. So here’s another one. When I went to Dubai during the pandemic and right now people are watching, going, oh, you went to Dubai during the pandemic. But the facts are I went when it was okay to go, but I started posting photos when I was out there when we went back into lockdown. So I left on like, I don’t know, 23rd or 26th or seventh thing from Cambridge, which essentially was like a tier two level, whatever it was, which was legal for me to fly. And because I booked this months ago, by the way, and it was I made that vocal booked Dubai back in November and I made it on my social media, booked Dubai buzzing to get out there for Christmas New Year. And so it was legal to me. Book. We had no lockdown, we’re all okay. And then Boris suddenly announced bam this day, certain tiers, certain people. Yeah, long time ago. So I went to Dubai, but again, it was fine. I was flying from Cambridge, I was allowed to leave, so on and so on and got to the airport, got to Dubai.

Fine. And then I started posting content. Me on a beach. Nothing like drinking booze, partying, which a lot of the some influencers were. It was just again, clean content, show my outfits, whatever. And I got the biggest backlash on my on my photos being like, how dare you escape the country? All this, all this. And I was like, I, have you been following me for a long time? You’d have seen that on my post. Like I booked this months ago and I left legally like so. I’ve done nothing wrong. Like I wasn’t the one jumping out of my bed and doing it on January 3rd and sneak into Dubai and suddenly appearing on a beach. I booked this months ago, so. And then people were commenting on it and going, oh, you should be ashamed for yourself. You raised all that money to climb Everest. I did a charity challenge and and now you’re and your mum’s going to work. My mum was like, the boys did nothing wrong and my mum was actually in the NHS. I wouldn’t have done that to her. Raised all this money for charity, sent it to the NHS and then buggered off to Dubai just for a holiday.

The thing that you said about the NHS, dentistry and people saying who is this private dentist to talk about? I mean I did, I did one year of NHS dentistry and vet, then went to private, then stopped being a dentist. Now I manufacture teeth whitening products so doesn’t mean.

You can’t ever comment.

Being a dentist. I want to talk about the NHS. Yeah. If I want to talk about the NHS, I’m allowed to comment about the NHS, even though I’m not working in that system. Yeah. And maybe they’re saying why did ITV ask her and not one of us. Well ITV asked her because of everything we just said. Yeah. All the 15 years work.

You’ve put I think, I think like, you know, people don’t realise that the nuances of situation but also like in terms of like so there’s two, there’s two different things. Also I want to cover with the content creation before we move on. There is I’m not going to say her name because she blocked me. Say her name. No no no.

Who’s this? Say her.

Name.

We’ll cut it out. We’ll cut it. I really want to know who’s blocked it out.

We’ll cut it out.

I’ll tell you afterwards. Okay. There was content. You’ll definitely know by a certain female. She’s doing a brilliant job. Just listen. Listen. Just listen. Sorry, sorry. She’s very beautiful. She’s very articulate. And she claims to be a psychologist. Okay. Initially, I was like, fantastic content. You. I love it when I see strong, empowered women doing this. She then got called out. She went on Chris Williamson’s podcast. Ah, okay.

Is it okay? I think I know who it is with Chris Williamson podcast.

And someone called it out because there were certain things she was saying and I was like, she’s not a psychologist. And her response to other people was like, medical professionals don’t respond in this way. You just know, pay. Like, you know, the way that we have to respond to stuff. So I did my own little research, found some TikToks. She’s a psychology teacher now. She has gone on some of the most famous psychology teachers.

A psychologist, no.

But clinical psychologist is what she’s kind of like, portraying herself as.

Doctor.

Like psychiatrist. No, no.

It’s the woman I’m thinking of. I’m sure her. I won’t say her name, but I’m sure her title is doctor.

Yeah, or something like that. Listen, listen, listen. So she’s basically misleading, but it’s incredible because she’s been on Lewis Howell’s podcast. Yeah. I think even Joe Rogan like interviewed her like there’s been loads. And the thing is no one has done their due diligence and there’s only a few people calling her out. I called her out in a really nice way. I dropped her a DM and I was like, hey, love your content. And I was like, but you’re not a psychologist. And I think it could be quite misleading to the public. You know, as you said that she said she blocked me direct. Yeah. She direct.

Messaging.

She blocked me. But the point is, without replying, without replying me saying you’re not a dentist, I’d be like, actually, here I am and this is my credentials. Shivani was obviously like, of course she’s going to block you. Like it’s like saying you’re a fraud, you know what I mean? And I was like, okay, but I didn’t mean it. I didn’t mean it like that.

How block happy are you? Oh I’m.

Sorry. Block happy now? I blocked so many times.

I don’t block at all. Do you know what I block? I do, you know, I always say I block a lot.

Block, block, block.

My way to deal with things is killing with kindness. And the reason why I do that is because this girl. Yesterday I put on my story. It was hilarious. She actually DM’d my girlfriend because I don’t really tag my girlfriend much and. But I do sometimes just tag her and people can find that by tagging my girlfriend’s private. Anyway, she got a DM saying hey lovely, I don’t you don’t know me, but I follow your boyfriend’s page. And just to let you know, I think you should be concerned that I think he sways both swings both ways as it like gay and yeah, and I put it on my story and she sent it to me. And I could not stop laughing at this because it was hilarious. But she. The thing is, I could have messaged this girl back because I’ve got her Instagram handle now being like, how dare you? Whatever. But something seriously troubled with those people who have to give you hate because they’ve taken the time out of their day. We have 24 hours a day and.

But you could say that about the psychologist. But I wasn’t giving hate. I was more concerned.

No, yours is very different. Your messaging out of. Yeah, a concerning way. This is something way worse. Like someone, someone going out of your way to hate someone is a complete like something’s troubled with that person. 100% truly troubled of that person. 100% truly troubled. So when you always get on TikTok, you’ll see you probably get it as well on your Instagram, it’s it’s fake accounts commenting on your stuff. 1234512 lol. It’s the emails I got from those people when I first started my website going you’re a joke mate. This is the biggest laughing stock. Those people have troubles and there’s one kid from university, his name is Gus and I’m going to say it out right now actively.

Then respond and be kind.

Be yeah, yeah yeah. So this one Kick-Off Gus from University I went to University of. Never spoke to him, but I’d always see him on shake his hand on nights out. He or he was no one at university, but he was just friends with these two guys and these two Joe and this guy Gus. If they listen to this, I hope they do. They will. They always, they always, always, always would comment on me and I would just comment back lol haha. Or hope you’re well mate. Or one of them was. Once I was, I was blessed are your well skinny or something like that and lol this is the biggest joke he. Whatever and I’ll be like, thanks mate. Appreciate your support. Always killing with kindness. And I got it for like two years straight and I haven’t for a while now. But it’s like, you know what? I love that because they’re taking time out of their day to message me out of their precious day. What are they probably doing? Nothing. They’re not trying to achieve any goals. They’re just doing their life and board. So they think they’re better off blasting someone else and hating on someone else. Never hate on someone. Success. And the one thing I would say anyone above you if you’re hating on someone, they’re above you. You never hate on someone below you. There’s no point. You never hate on someone below you. You always hate on. So you always know if you’re being hated. You’re above.

That person. In dentistry, it happens so much and it’s so sad. And I’ve tried so hard. Have you?

Have you never not hated? Hate is a big word. Have you never thought that something someone said needed calling out in dentistry?

As in like the things they say to me or the things they say to me?

They say they’re saying to the public that they’re saying to their audience, you know, we’ve had a few things in dentistry recently, like the the twins. Um, maybe you’re not. You don’t follow them.

Yeah, exactly. See, I stay so far away.

But you know what I mean.

What was the twins tell me.

There are, there are there are things people say that you might think I think that’s wrong or I think that’s, I don’t know, self promoting or. I think that’s totally so. So do you know why has there not been in dentistry a time where.

You wanted listen, listen, listen. And Henry will be the same. Of course you’re going to see people online. I get I mean.

In your industry. Yeah.

But listen.

But nutrition and stuff. But listen.

But the thing is like, okay, for example, the reason why the psychology thing triggered me is because I genuinely believe if you’re going to give medical advice you need, like you said, people should comment things that they’re on an expert. There is nothing wrong with being a psychology teacher. Just say you’re a teacher. Do you see what I mean? But misleading people and people that are going to look up to you. So I do have a problem with people like saying that. However, maybe I shouldn’t have, but I was like like for me, like psychology and psychiatry and psychotherapy is so important. Okay. Well, what about fitness?

Do you have to be a PT to essentially give personal trainer advice? But I know so many people in unreal shape. But the thing.

Is, it’s like but it’s also about transparency. It’s about like, I have a lot of experience. I’m giving you advice based on my experience. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. So I think that like it’s just the, you know, but you’re not going to lie about being a PT no. Do you know what I mean?

I, I actually went and got my license just because I sometimes couldn’t be bothered. Well, sometimes I get people commenting to me being like, you’re not even a PT bro. And then you’re.

Like, actually I am.

Well, actually, now I actually do have the level three qualification and I’m trained to do this if I wanted to. So you know what? I can talk about it even though that course isn’t great. Like it’s like going back to school and learning. You don’t learn much, but it’s just like you got it and it’s a credential. And if you do want to talk about it, you can. And if I want to release my plans, how about.

Same question to you. Have you ever thought someone in your industry needed your hate? Yeah.

But listen, listen a Payman I’m not done with that. I’m not done with that because it was going to lead on. Right. It was going to lead on. You see something you don’t like or someone online, you unfollow and you move on. Yeah, that’s my philosophy. So you don’t like the content. Why should I call out if someone doesn’t like Henry? I don’t like these fashion stuff I don’t like. I don’t like the fact that you’re talking about running and you’re not doing a million marathons. I don’t like the fact that you’re giving this advice and you don’t work completely in fitness. Just unfollow. Henry. Yeah.

Don’t follow me. So true. Why? Why do people want to hate so much? It’s. I just don’t get it. Like. Well.

There are nuances to that as well. Well.

Here’s what I did. And it made me really realise this when I was probably 13. I remember, um, Twitter was huge and X factor was on and I used to go onto my Twitter and I would slate the contestants. I’d be like, you have the world’s worst voice at Frankie Cocozza. And I only realised, but no, listen, this is 13 year old immature ten year old.

Trying to get something.

Yeah, trying to get something back. You never know. But I didn’t realise how badly this can affect people’s mental health until it started happening to me. So. Yeah. So as a kid I was like slating these famous people. If they’d had a rubbish football game, I’d comment, look, you guys have a football match. Everyone swears at the players, right? Because they don’t get it and you’ll see tweets. And if someone’s missed a missed a penalty or whatever in your club’s missed it, you’ll get hate from so many seeing so much hate. So think about how much that impacts that player. Like we all have the same minds and brains and we all are so similar. Really. Like it’s going to affect you like and people are probably told by their managers people stay off social, stay off Twitter. But sometimes you’re just on it and it’s natural that you may read that comment about you or something and you’re like, ah, it’s always the one bad thing, the one bad comment that stays in you as well. It’s not the good ones. Yeah, you could get your amazing tonight, mate. Well done. Or you were great at singing tonight or you played really well, but that one bad one can’t believe you missed that penalty.

You’re dead to our team. It’s going to stay with you for so long and it’s so traumatic. It’s the same in social media as it taught me. Massively. Like, if you’re not going to say something nice, don’t even bother saying it at all. And it’s so simple to say and it’s harder for people to do, especially at young kids. And. Stuff like that. And you do get that hate on TikTok all the time because it’s such a Gen Z platform and you get hate all the time, but you just got to for me, now is like, kill them with kindness and just whatever and whatever. Like they’re not my friends. I’m not worried about them because they’re not my I don’t see them every day. I’m not going to see that person. I’m just worried about who what my friends think of me, what my family think of me. And am I being a good person to my girlfriend or my brother or my mom and dad? That’s what you should really be caring about, not about what user 101 things. Do you know what I mean? Like that’s the least.

What’s your in this journey where you’ve come from? Just making some content and then getting really successful at it and then brand deals and modelling and all that. What was the darkest?

Yeah, I was just about to ask, what was your darkest moment? Yeah.

Oh.

I tell you what I think it’s honestly it’s the the followers. Because I think the the more you get, the more pressure you have to feel like you need to perform to that audience. Like if you looked into a room and you had 100,000 people in one room, you’d be like, Holy shit, I’ve got to talk in front of 100,000 people. Like you wouldn’t be able to do that. It’d be like you’d be nervous, you’d be sweating. So it’s the same as going on your Instagram story and talking on there, but you’re doing it in to an audience of 100,000 people. So I felt when I got over 100 K, I felt almost had pressure on me. And the better I got at doing things like it’s the same as when I run or create content. When I first started, I wasn’t very good, so I had nothing to compare to. I had nothing to lose. But when I start getting good at it, every video I started posting, if it wasn’t as good as the last one, I’d put pressure on myself and go, don’t post it. It’s not good enough, which isn’t the way to do it. And I still do it today. So I’ll then because I’m at the top, I’ve got 178,000 followers or whatever. I’ll compare myself to other people have 170 K, and I’ll look at their content and I’ll be like, God, this is better than mine, or that guy’s better than mine, or he got to 200 K, his is better than mine. And I’ll go because I’ve got to that number, but then I’ve got to I got to remember, well, what was I doing when I had one follower like or two followers, my content look back at my content from ten years ago. So bad. So for me, it’s the pressure from feeling like I need to perform all the time. When you don’t like you don’t. You need to have days off, you need to have time off. And I’m I’m.

At some point on one day. Did that become like overwhelming and yeah.

Do you ever get did you ever get like severe crippling anxiety from social media.

So I yeah I get it all the time. Like I am a really anxious person quite frankly. And I hold it in well and I can’t control it.

You wouldn’t realise.

I think I do a lot. I think I’ve done a lot of things to help me balance it. So I see a therapist once a month. She’s been incredible. Same therapist, only ever. One I’ve seen and I haven’t seen anyone else since. So I see her about once a month. And for people who can’t afford or have the privilege of doing therapy, then I think just a good conversation with a friend is equally as important or can actually help as much. Or starting a new hobby, or taking your mind away from things that aren’t causing you anxiety, and waking up and not touching my mobile phone first thing in the day. Going to sleep one hour before no blue light or no screens again. Doesn’t have your mind wandering with all these thoughts and same when you wake up. You’re not jumping into your emails is another thing that’s really kept me anxiety at bay. And if it does come, just let it be. It’s a bad day, not a bad life. Like there’s going to be some times in life and days and years where you have that day where you can’t get out of anxiety and people go, oh, just breathe, breathe, go meditate. I’m telling you right now, you cannot go meditate. When you’re anxious. You cannot do it. You do the meditate. You do the meditation in the morning or whenever you fancy doing it too. So when you are anxious or in those bad thoughts that you remind yourself when you’re in that state of flow and state of chill and calm, that’s the state you can try and get back into, but you can’t go and just breathe it out because it’s not going to work. And you can you can lose a day and say, oh, you know what? That day, today’s not been good, but that’s okay. Just knowing that it’s okay.

My question for you is, though, you said like all these great coping mechanisms tell us how you ended up on this marathon journey. So first of all, like how many marathons you do, why you decided to do a marathon and how that’s helped your mental health.

So running for me, I actually started it when I got an injured shoulder and I couldn’t lift weights and I this was gyms, a part of my routine. I like training and I just lifted weights and I was in quite good shape, bodybuilder esque, like big, not not stacked, but like big. And excuse me. And I started running because I couldn’t lift weights and I was a bit slow, wasn’t I was always okay at school, but I wasn’t great now. And I started to get okay. So I set myself a challenge of a half marathon and I wanted to do it in sub one hour 30, and I did it in one hour 27 across the line, absolute gassed I was, I see I did it, but then I started right, right. So I did a marathon and I did my first ever marathon with not much training because I got given like a place with a brand very last minute, did it in three hours, 37 and my first ever one was like 302 only two years ago, actually two and a half years ago maybe. And I was like, oh my God, I’ve got to get into this. I trained for this. I could be a okay runner. And I started running. I set myself a target last year about seven, 8 or 12 months, 14, 15 months ago, set myself a target to do a sub three hour marathon. And I this is my first ever trained one. So I did about seven weeks of training to get this sub three and everyone was like, yeah, you’re never going to get a sub three on your first attempt.

I remember telling my mates, If I’m ever going to train properly for a marathon, I want to do it sub three. And I never forget the face they all went, no chance mate. Yeah. And so I put the work in and I got sub three on my first attempt. I did a 2 to 58. And anyway, the reason why I started to run was one because the shoulder. But also this moment of peace. I just have like there’s a lot of run clubs and I think it’s great running with people. But something incredible about running and present, about running by yourself first thing in the morning or after a long day at work where you can’t physically look at your phone or touch it, or compare yourself, or scroll media or whatever. It’s just you, your breath and your feet and the tap, tap, tap, or a bit of music or podcast in your ear or whatever. And I think that is just incredible. And I love it. Whether it’s raining, whether it’s cold outside and the sun’s rising and you see the sunrise or whether it’s a beautiful day, I think there’s just something empowering about it. And there is. Leaving the gym is great. After lifting weights, you feel great, but leaving after a run that runner’s high is the best feeling I’ve ever had in my entire life. They talked about. I think it’s massively made my mental health just feel a bit like, have a stressful day, go for a run, go.

For a run. Yeah, that was so I mentioned to Payman earlier. So did you have you listened to the latest Steven podcast with Dr. Tara Schwartz?

I haven’t yet, no.

It’s amazing, but she talks about the impact of aerobic exercise on the mind. I don’t know if you guys knew that. Not weightlifting. So first of all she talks about different studies. So with weightlifting with people that lift heavy, even if they didn’t lift just thinking about it, they had muscle growth.

Yeah. That’s that’s I’ve heard about that. Yeah. Apparently if you if you picture yourself in the gym and think about yourself lifting weights, they do say you can something like psychological empowering about I think it’s like a placebo though I think she talks.

About the effect of aerobic and actually causing. I think it is neurogenesis. So we were talking about this earlier how like you can get like increased neurones. And with aerobic exercise in particular, you have more of that impact of neurogenesis where you can get like an increase of like your neurones. And then if you go for like have a break from running and then you like run again, like it can do that even more. So there’s a huge benefit. Like people overlook cardio because they’re like, don’t do cardio, don’t do cardio. And I think that’s actually a really because we’re not thinking. We’re not talking about just physique. Why? The most toxic thing that’s happened with exercise is that we’ve completely related it to physical and aesthetic goals, when actually it has huge, because I know people that aren’t in great shape and are amazing at sports.

You know, let’s talk about. So for me, this is when I got into a really unhealthy place of fitness. It was when I got to Australia, as I told you guys earlier, and I got into the best shape of my life, I was like 4% body fat. Me and my brother, we were counting all our calories. We only really lifted weights and that because if you lift weights, it will aesthetically get you into the place you want to be 100% fat like you are growing each specific muscle, lifting each specific muscle to grow to where you want it to. And you will look the best. That’s just fact. But I got so unhealthy with it. It was beyond belief. Like every time I go out for food, I would I would probably eat chicken salad dressing on the side, nothing else because I was worried about the calories and I knew that I was like calories. I would barely drink because I was I was in Australia, I wouldn’t drink, I’d do nothing. I was so boring. All I wanted to do was go to the gym, and the girls upstairs used to come downstairs. This is how bad it got.

The girls upstairs who lived above us would come down. Go. Do you guys want to go out tonight? And me and my brother would go, oh we can’t. We’ve got something on tomorrow. Got to go to work in tomorrow. Unfortunately. When really we had sushi dinner that we wanted to save because it was our calories and it can get so caught up in your mind. It actually makes you have a bit of an eating eating disorder. So for me, it was like every time I had a burger, I’d be thinking about the calories. So I actually completely stopped counting calories. And what I do now, I think, I think it’s not bad to go through it, because once you go through it, you understand what you’ve done, you’ve learnt about it, right? And now, like I’ve got such good balance between running fitness, eating aesthetics, drinking it all, and I think you need to go through the bad times in this journey to learn it, and you won’t learn it by someone telling you on YouTube. You can tell it, but then you’ll be like, I don’t get it until you go through it. And I’ve gone through.

It all now. Level of obsession that you’re discussing, it has its positives, right?

Yeah, totally. In the meantime, in the moment it doesn’t until you can digest it and be like, oh, that’s why I did that or that’s why I’ve done that. Yeah. Looking back, I remember I was honestly trying to get shredded for a holiday to Marbella when I was 21. I’d go on this egg white diet where I just ate egg whites and broccoli 800 calories, diet like because I wanted to have abs. That is so unhealthy. What am I thinking? Yeah, you don’t need that at all.

So as well, do you? Have you ever tried alternative modes of therapy to help your mental health? Like, we’ve had a few people on this podcast talk about like plant medicines and other things like that. Like what’s your view on that?

Yeah. So I actually I’ve dabbled a little bit in psychedelics and now it’s quite a taboo, taboo thing to really talk about or discuss because there’s not been a lot of like science based evidence, especially with mushrooms. More coming out.

Yeah. Psilocybin. They’re going to be using it for depression MDMA.

They are in certain. But it’s it’s how our body reacts to it right. If you drink alcohol for the first time, you don’t know how you’re going to react to it, and 90% of people are probably going to be sick or drink too much, and it’s going to make you have a bad headache. So you you learn from that experience. And it’s the same with psychedelics. You don’t know how your body’s going to cope with it or what your mind is going to do. So you get a bit panicky, maybe until you understand what it does to you. So the first time I went on it, it was in a controlled environment. And I think that’s the best thing to do with any drug or anything you do should be in controlled environment. And that’s why in America now in like Texas or Houston or Austin, it’s like the psychedelic Mecca of the world in and they do it all under control people. So you have like therapists doing it for you. So I was going for a bit of a rough patch of and I was a bit anxious, worried about what’s the next part? I didn’t have a girlfriend at this time.

I was I felt a bit lonely. And in London you can probably know. It can be a very lonely place. And I was like, screw it, I’m going to go on this retreat. My friend Louis, who, you know, who had this podcast, he was like, mate, come. You’ve got nothing to lose. I was like, you’re right, nothing to lose. Turned up. And I went on this amazing retreat in Wales and I knew no one there. Went by myself, told my friends all last minute, I’m actually going on this retreat to do psychedelics and do mushrooms. And they were like, you fucking what? And I’m like, I don’t even know what I’m doing, but I’m going to do it. I’m all about new experiences, right? And I went on this thing and I sat down. They were like, right, we’re going to do a sharing circle. And as soon as the sharing circle started, I was like, what the fuck have I entered into? This is not me. Like, get me out of here.

Woo woo!

It felt a bit woo woo and it felt a bit, a bit like a bit intimidating, like, why do I need to share my thoughts and feelings? And I did it and I felt really good. And I was like, this is, this is before I’ve done any mushrooms, by the way, or any psychedelics. And I was like, wow, isn’t it great to just let your thoughts off your chest to strangers? Because we’re all doing it and.

We’re all connected.

And we all had similar thoughts. It was like, this girl to the left of me have nothing in common, but the thing she was saying I could completely resonate to, and it was like, isn’t that funny? Like, we all are so connected in this world. And then the next day you go to bed. You don’t. I took off social media. I turned my phone off, left it in the car, didn’t touch it for two days. So the conversations I’m having are so raw, so real and amazing. And because I think for me, for one, I get judged quite a lot because I like to dress well, take care of my skin, and like to do fitness and groom myself. Self-care quite, quite. Probably too extreme. But anyway, I do. And so a lot of the initial judgement is people think I’m arrogant and that’s okay. I don’t mind that. Anyway, I thought it was a really good place for me to actually tell these people who I truly am and the personality, because actually, at the end of the trip, a lot of people were like, damn, man, I judged you as soon as I walked in, like, I thought you were just this good looking guy at this retreat, thinking he’s someone else. And I was like, I’m so sorry about that. And I was like, I was so honest that you’re like that because I think we all do it. Like we judge people walking down the street for having pink hair.

And actually there could be the loveliest person or having something. They’re just going fancy trying something new. Yeah. And anyway, did the psychedelics and during the experience, it’s very like I first I was quite nervous because I’ve never done this, but I just said to my body, in my subconscious, in my mind, surrender, surrender to this and let it be. Whatever happens is lean into it. Because if you step away from it, lean away from it. You’re going to block the drugs out. Because the way I say it is, if if you’re smashed out of your face, right, and you’re boozing with your mates and your mum texted you saying your dad’s in the hospital, get home now you’re going to snap and you’re going to go, I’m not I’m not drunk anymore. I’m sober. I’m alert, I’m focussed. So your mind can take you out of certain situations if you want it to. And it’s the same with the psychedelics. If you want to be taken out of it, you will. But if you surrender to it and just say mushrooms, like whatever you do, do your thing and it will work really well. So the first hour I’m taking it and I’m like, oh, can I go to the toilet? Should I go to the toilet? I’m not a bit sure. And I was like, just Henry, stop and do what you want to do.

And I went to the toilet, came back, went back into this like kind of weird trance. And it takes about a week to really digest what you’ve seen and done and to really put it into work. And the moment, the first time I did it, I’ve done it twice now, and each one I’ve had different experiences, but the first was a very special one because I think the other people around me were really significant. Have, since I’ve done it, have been a real significant part of my life, and they’ve all been friends now and they’re all really interesting people on it. Some were entrepreneurs, some were, I don’t know, some celebrities or whatever, and there were some really cool people there, and I connected really well with these people. And I think for me, it was like that sharing circle the next day after you’ve been on it and everyone again sharing their experiences was just such an amazing, amazing thing to hear. And it was just like such an eye opening experience. And I left and I sat down and I was like, because I didn’t touch my phone this entire week and I was like, wow, the world doesn’t actually go that fast. We just think it does because we’re always scatty we’re on phones, we’re running at 100 miles an hour. But actually, you know what? It’s slow. You can have it. I’ve had about 13 incredible conversations before 1130.

In the morning. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But we’re so busy doing things.

And was everyone’s experience similar or different after.

Everyone actually had very different experiences? I think. I think, you know.

The thing is with psychedelics, as they have shown, because they’re doing so many studies on it, particularly with psilocybin and mushrooms and stuff like if you have on those levels, because there’s like there’s different levels, right? And there’s a really famous psychologist at Imperial that does studies and there’s like certain doses. So you have a recreational dose. So that’s when you’re like, ha ha, I’m having fun. Yeah. Then the dose that Henry would have taken, which is more like your ego, they call it ego death. So the ego dies, right? So the ego dies.

A heroic dose.

Yeah, exactly. So then you get pushed, you get pushed, you get pushed into the closet, as they said, with your skeletons, and things will come up. Like you might see things that are uncomfortable, your parents or stuff about your relationships.

So that.

Doesn’t happen to.

Everyone, though. Everyone has different appearances, a lot of the time you can go and have intention. My intention may have been I want to find the future wife, what type of girl I should be with that. Maybe everyone, but you don’t choose how the mushrooms.

Control your brain. They’ll take.

You somewhere. They’ll take you somewhere else. It could be completely different. It could be you as a child playing football and how you got tackled by a boy. And that caused your trauma for the rest of your life because you’re now scared to play football? I don’t know, um, pretty bad example of that, but you get my point. Um, for me, the first I’ll take you back to my first experience, because I actually did mushrooms in Thailand, jokingly, recreationally, recreationally. And when I was travelling and again, all I did was get the giggles. It was hilarious. We had the funnest time ever. It was really good fun. Um, but this was very different. Didn’t get any of that hilarious moments for me. It was more deeper, very deep. So things I actually saw, um, was the type of girl I need to go for because I’ve had two relationships, but by this time one of them was really good. But we broke up because I went to university. The other one was a bit toxic, a bit fire on fire, and it was. And at the time I was dating these type of girls and in my vision it was like, you need to go back to someone like your first ever girlfriend, because that’s exactly what you need.

And now so you saw that in your second.

I saw that and know first trip, first trip, and then what else I saw was my dad on his deathbed. And that was horrible because I was crying in the trip and it was like, okay, so again, a week later, what does that I’m writing these down and I read it afterwards and I was like, what does that mean to me? And in that moment that was like, your parents aren’t here for a long time. Maybe go and spend more time with them. Maybe that’ll make you happy. Maybe that seeing your mom and dad more often is going to make your.

Dad was perfectly fine. Fine? He still.

Is fine. He still is. But it’s just like, maybe that is like.

There might be a worry, though. Do you see what I mean?

I haven’t got many. You haven’t got many experiences left with your say. If you see your parents, say if you’ve got parents still and I’m 31, my parents are 67 and 66. Say, if I only see them twice a year and they live till the average age of, say, 75, that’s only 29 more times I’ll see my mom and dad. It’s crazy. Isn’t that scary? And then it’ll be 28, 27. And that’s sad. Exactly. So it was like, I need to make a more conscious effort to go see them all the time. Not all the time, but more of a conscious effort. Pick up the damn phone and call your mum and dad because they want you to call them. Like my mum is always like, oh, you never call me anymore. And I’m like, I know, I.

Know, I put you on that guilt and you feel so bad.

But you should. Do you know what? It’s not hard when you’re walking down the street to pick up your groceries or something to go. You know what? I’ll give my mum and dad a call because they all really appreciate you.

Not call your parents every day all the time.

But you know what my mum’s like? My mum’s like, you never see us, you don’t want to hang out with us. And the thing is, is like my like, I’m so like, death is such a taboo subject, right? As in, like, we don’t talk about, we can always see our parents getting older and it’s a few little struggles. You know, me and my sister are like, dad looks a bit old. Do you know what I mean? He’s looking a bit more frail. He’s forgetting things a bit more, you know.

Yeah, same as what my me and my brothers are doing.

The thing is, it just. It is a really scary thing, but it’s also like a part of life, like we are going to lose our parents. And this is.

One thing I talk about with people of success and doing things as well. It’s like there’s only one inevitable thing that’s going to happen this one, we’re all going to die, right? So go do what the fuck you want to do anyway. Like, why are we stopping ourselves from thoughts of what other people think? Because like, go fucking do it like you want to start that business and all your friends think it’s crazy. Fuck it. If it doesn’t work, you’ve learnt something like go do it. And I’m saying that sometimes for myself because I need.

You to say it to me, Henry.

Yeah, like. And me and Rhona talk outside this podcast and she goes, me babe, sometimes I have imposter syndrome. And I’m like, what? You you’re a successful entrepreneur. You have this amazing parlour business, you have this amazing tooth business. Sorry. Dentistry business. You’ve got a podcast. You, in my eyes, are the most successful person I know. And then she’s like, Henry, I look at you and think, your content is amazing. This is amazing. How do you get imposter syndrome? And I’m like, I think we are the worst own thoughts.

But we also think people are thinking about us, you know.

Are we overexaggerate our own importance? There’s far too much.

There’s an amazing woman I found online. Her name’s Sarah, something, and she’s a woman that is in Dubai, and she talks about how she has dealt with stigmas all her life. She’s a divorced Middle Eastern woman with 27 tattoos that doesn’t cover up. And she was saying that, like people, especially in the Middle East. In culture like where I’m from, have always judged her for things. And then she said that she did like a massive detox because when she lost a lot of people being her authentic self, she lost a lot of people. She goes, but it felt so good because the people that stayed were the people that loved me for who I was authentically. Do you know what I mean? And then she goes on to say that, like, your brain is like tofu. Be careful what you marinate it in, because if you marinate it in shit like toxicity, it absorbs that, you know what I mean? It’s like a sponge, right? Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, you know, that that is the most important thing. But you’re right. We forget that we have one life. And over and over again, people on their deathbed, as you know, they get asked, what do you regret? You know, and the regret is always doing the things that they wanted to do that they didn’t.

Living for other people’s expectations. But, you know, you get you guys are a bit younger. You get to my age and you start to regret the things you didn’t try. Yeah. That definitely what?

Well, I’m already seeing it already in my.

Products or companies or whatever. It was. Many things we haven’t tried.

Yeah, I think it’s so true though, because I always look at it like this and it’s easier to say than it is to do. It’s like money will come and go, like just fucking spend it and give it your best shot on whatever you want, like, because you can go back and make money. That’s the Middle.

East in a way. By the way. My mom’s Lebanese. She spent she’s like, Alex, buy me the Chanel. We might die tomorrow. Which really justifies everything, you know, like everything. Because Lebanese, by the way, they grew up in war, like, their whole life. Like Payman knows it’s the most bougie country in the world. Yeah, a bomb will hit. They’re still clubbing because they’re like, you know, you’re like, Yalla, we might die. You know what you were saying?

There is like buying me that thing anyway. So I think there’s a lot of, again, ways to look at that. Like there’s two ways to look. Oh, the first thought is £1,000. That’s, you know, maybe I shouldn’t do it. But then the other thing is, if I wear that Chanel bag, my confidence is going to go through the roof. So will that confidence make you better at work? Maybe. Will it make you get that boyfriend, your girlfriend you really want? Maybe. Will it make you walk with confidence? Maybe. And I think confidence is so key in anything we do. We talked.

About that. We talked about exercise and confidence because people were saying that. We say, oh, you shouldn’t have aesthetic goals. But then if aesthetic goals make you more confident and the confidence brings you other things in life, is it.

Bad, do things bad. But I do think every everyone who starts in the gym probably has some sort of low level of confidence and the and they’ve got some sort of validation they want to have to have. And I think I do.

Anything at the beginning of anything. It’s very difficult. Yeah.

Maybe. Yeah I think I was like that as well. Probably I was a skinny lad at uni and wanted to get all the girls, so I started lifting weights.

So when you look back on the journey, what, what, what are the high points? What comes to mind when you think of like the moments where you can take real pleasure?

So was it was like when I first started this, I was like, one day I’m going to work with this brand and this brand. And the moment I started working with them, it was like, fair play. I’ve done what I said I was going to do this brand, was it what was All Saints? And quite cool because and Ralph Lauren and I was like, you know what, fair play. Because I’ve always wanted to have the email being like, oh, we invite you to this or you can wear our clothes. And it was like, I remember 18 years old, I bought a All Saints leather jacket, my mum bought me one for my birthday and I was like, mom, there’s a lot of money, £330. And now and I’m not saying this gloating or anything, but it’s like I can contact them and they’ll send me one. And it’s like great feeling. It’s like, you know, I worked for that. And people look at it.

And the thing you work for, that’s the thing, people.

Look at it straight away, go, oh, you got this easy. I’m like, mate, I did it exactly.

When people are like, you should get in the TV gig.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Yeah, it’s it’s the same people, right, who complain. Right. So there’s two types of people. There’s the person who has the wife, who has the two kids and still manages to work out. And there’s the other one who what you were saying, and there’s the other person who comments on everyone’s post, but you don’t have kids and it’s the person. But there’s still, I guarantee there’s someone out there still finding the time to get the work in and do X, Y, and Z, even if they’ve got kids in a job and everything. Exactly. It’s just what you prioritise and what you spend those other little minutes doing that could save you on other certain areas of your, of your, of your life.

So what does the future hold for you?

Yeah.

I think it’s a really good question because for me, the future. I’ve been doing content creation for a while now, and I’m seeing all the changes and things like that, and I almost feel like I want to pass the baton down to the younger generation in content creation. Don’t get me wrong, I still want to do it. I think it’s going to be a part of my brand and what I do to showcase things, but for me, I really want to get my own fashion brand. I’ve got an idea to implement, like running kind of wear in more of a fashion wear fashion aesthetic, not like Nike, like performance clothing, but cool aesthetic in the running kind of space and fitness space, but also fashion space as well for like holiday wear and stuff. So I’m working on some designs right now for my own fashion brand, and I really want that because I think it’s for me, it’s like I love creating content and stuff like that, but I really want to have something which is bigger than my name and grow a brand, and I can impact. Impact? Yeah. Like I can always if I see someone wear my jumper down the. Street or something. And they bought that. I’d be like, fuck yeah. Like, and I get that now. I get people messaging me online and it’s like, that’s.

A dream lots of people have had. Right. So but now that you’ve started that process, what are the things about that that surprised you or you weren’t aware of or I mean, for instance, just for the sake of the argument, you want to make that jacket? Yeah, you got to make that in seven sizes and four colours. Yeah. Suddenly you’re talking 28 SKUs of that jacket.

Totally. Well, so far what I’ve learned is like, start small. Like you can’t expect to have a jumper, a t shirt, a pair of trousers, a pair of shoes off the back of it. Right. You have to start small. And again it’s just consistency like we talked about earlier. It’s starting small and being consistent with it and learning along the way. There’s going to be mistakes. I’m not going to I know for a fact I’m just not going to be all plain sailing because like you said, everyone would have done it. So it’s just and if it doesn’t work, it’s okay.

But in specifically in fashion, what are some things you’re starting to learn?

Okay, so I’ve got a sample made the other day. Samples can come back really shit. And they’re also really expensive to make. You know I think they look really good. So I get this jumper and I’m like, not not what I thought. And that’s £130. And I could have bought a nice jumper for £130, which is. Yeah. So it’s things like that. Um, the, the logo, the, the branding, the, the name having meaning behind the name is really important. Like I could just slap. I don’t know, there must be a reason why you started. What was the reason for you starting in lightning and lightning smile. Is there a reason behind it? Is there a brand behind it?

Yeah, yeah, but but I mean, one thing that’s very interesting. When we try and make something, there’s two ways of going. One is you stick your name on something that exists. Yeah. And the other way is where you make something completely new. And making something completely new costs us maybe five times as much. Totally sticking our name on something. I think with.

Fashion, you don’t actually need to reinvent the wheel all the time, because if you look at fashion, what actually happens is it goes in circles, just it goes in cycles. Right. So certain trends right now will probably go in May, maybe stay like there’s always some things that are going to stay leather jackets, things like that. But there’s certain trends and styles which will go round in cycle. So it’s like understanding what’s big now and then. You never know. It could become big in ten years, but for teeth to making them whiter or something, maybe a complete like you said.

You want to do a t shirt or a shirt, let’s say. Yeah. And you’ve got a specific idea about the way you want the stitching on the on the shirt or something. Unless you unless someone makes that specifically for you. Yeah. You’re not going to get that right. So is that the way it is that that is ready to go. Things that you can stick your name on got you or there’s like, you know, cutting new shapes and is that is that how it works? Well essentially.

Yeah. Like the manufacturer I’m speaking to at the moment. I said to him, listen, I want this, this, this. And he’s like, yeah, we can do that. So there’s just certain certain things people can do. If they can’t do it, then you find someone who can. Yeah, yeah. And it may take a long time to find someone who can. The thing which is really tough with any business, I think, is let’s take content creation for an example. You want to get better at photography, but to learn it. I learnt a lot of mine off YouTube. But what do you type into YouTube if you don’t have a clue about the terminology? Yeah. So there’s things on a camera which is ISO, aperture and things like that. But if you had no idea what aperture was, how could you say, make my photo look cleaner in YouTube? And then you get all these videos. It’s the same as like starting a clothing business. What is the word for this? Like, do you know what you need? Almost a dictionary of your words and everything. But it’s also about dentistry as well.

It’s about starting like Paula was the most like difficult thing I’ve ever done in my entire life. Because also like with dentistry, like I so had like a clear idea. And then I went on courses and then I invested. But like with business, especially a Start-Up like know it’s all it’s it’s all this new terminology and you kind of learn like on the go. And like recently I learnt all this stuff about business, like, you know, like shares, articles of association. Do you know what I mean? I had no flipping clue at that.

Richard Branson started a business and he made it to the top. And he still doesn’t know the.

Difference between Net and.

Gross. So do you know what? If you if you’re here and you make that, you’ll be all right.

Yeah, I think I think one of the big things like that Henry has brought today, like a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of great tips. But you know what you’ve shown a lot of people just start and also have the like, have the vision in mind, because I know that when he was that guy at Fitness First that didn’t have like he wasn’t going to be one of the biggest, like, content creators in the world. He just knew he wanted to do it. So you have to start somewhere.

So as I said earlier, self-belief is so important and we’re always going to feel something every day. We’re going to feel like, oh, we don’t deserve to be here. But if you can control your mind and just stay in that zone, you’ll you’ll get there. And that’s what I got. Mind over feelings tattooed on my under my bicep here first ever one. I love it because I think we feel something all the time. But if you can say to your mind. Your mind. You can do anything.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Henry. It’s honestly amazing.

I really.

Really, really.

Enjoyed that chat.

With you both. And yeah. And, like, probably have to bring you in for like, part two. Let’s do.

It. I’d love that. Thank you very much. Amazing. Thank you.

Lovely to chat to you both.

Thank you.

You look at the energy we generate about 98,500 unique users, of which about 68,000 of them are logged into the site. So we know the details and we can track them. That’s going to become incredibly powerful when cookies are available because you can’t pixel. And obviously what you’ve done where you’re giving the money to Mark Zuckerberg, if you can’t pixel, you know, all of these things that you’re doing, you’re going to need an organisation that has that data, has that infrastructure. And we’ve been doing that for the last 4 or 5 years. And we have a data team that’s just constantly looking at that user journey and harnessing data and. You know. So I think it’s it’s more about how people are preparing for the future. And, you know, I know how hard that journey has been over the last four years and the development and the infrastructure and the team and the investment that’s gone into developing that. You know, I wish anyone luck was going through that now because it’s not easy.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Craig Welling onto the podcast. Craig has really lived the British dream. We talk about the American dream sometimes. Craig’s lived the British dream. He joined FMC who anyone who’s in dentistry will have some contact with as a cold caller, a marketer telemarketer, and I’ve known him since that time when he was just just a young lad. And over the last ten, 15 years, he’s worked his way up that company, culminating in a management buyout of the company where he’s become the boss of the company, along with Tim and Jason, which is amazing. It’s a beautiful, beautiful story, but if you’ve ever picked up a Dental magazine, it’s likely to have been an FMC title. If you’ve ever been to an awards ceremony, it’s likely that that’s an FMC award. The Dentistry Awards Private Dentistry awards. If you’ve ever been to a massive event, you know they’ve got big events in Manchester and London and so forth, along with loads of other activities. And avid listeners will remember on episode 130, we had Ken Finlayson, who’s the F in FMC? No longer is Ken the boss. So lovely to have you Craig.

Thanks, Paddy. What a what a wonderful introduction. I’ve never been introduced like that before so yeah, appreciate the words. Shall I give.

You my intro? Craig?

As long as if you can top that, that’d be lovely.

Not a freaking not a fricking chance, mate. So before we started this, Craig said to me, either in his late teens or early 20s, his recollection of us last meeting was in a curry house in Manchester, and it was and it was a brilliant curry. And we were in the gym and we were just we were just talking about Craig’s journey. And I said, what you joined as a young kid hitting the phones and now you’re the boss of the company. And he goes, yeah, one of three. I mean, that just blows my bloody mind, right? And I’m sure during today we’re going to talk about that journey. What happened. You know, what what have you done specifically to make that happen. You know, what have been what have been the ingredients of that? And was that a goal? Was that a dream? Did it happen? Right place, right time, hard work, probably a combination of all those things, but really, really interested to learn your story, Craig, and hear what it was. And look in you know, dentistry news travels fast, right? So I’d heard about this on the grapevine and I was like, bloody hell, I really want to know what happened and how and why. Right. So yeah really curious. And Craig, we usually we usually start this podcast by asking, you know, where did you grow up, what was your childhood like and all that sort of thing. So so just give us your backstory. Early days of Craig as a as a young lad growing up.

Yeah. No worries. So I mean, I grew up in a in a small town in Hertfordshire called Elstree, Borehamwood come from a really traditional working class family. My dad worked for the Royal Mail as a as a lorry driver and my mum worked for a company called bowerbirds actually, which produces coffee, but two really hard working individuals. And I think for me, you know, I was always about people, you know, at school, I loved the engagement, I loved interacting with people. I found it really hard to focus, if I’m honest, in terms of knuckling down on the educational side. And I’ve battled my way through school, quite honestly. And, you know, the work ethic was always there, but it wasn’t something I particularly enjoyed. So I got got through my GCSE, stayed on A-levels, and I remember I did my A levels and I just thought, you know what this is, this is not for me. I’m not going to go on to be an academic. And I remember I went went back home and I said to my mum, that’s it, I’m out, I’m tapping out. And she, she said, right, jump in the car. And she took me down to next and she bought me a suit and went to the library and made me print out my CV. And she said, you’ve got a week to go and get yourself a job if you’re leaving school. And I’ll never forget that. I think that was quite a pivotal moment in my in my adolescence, really. And, you know, I remember walking into estate agents and different, different organisations as a young guy in a, in a really cheap suit, not I and criticism, but for a job. And I remember I got the phone call actually, and I started at an estate agents the week after which, which was a which was a tough role. But yeah, you know, like I’ve got both my parents still together. I’ve got a sister. We’re really 2.4 children, working class family from a small town. Nothing really exciting, to be honest. It’s just. Just. Yeah.

So your mum, your mum took you to a took you to next. Got you your suit and what job. What, what was that process of. Right. I’m going to start applying for jobs. What was going through your mind? Was it always sales? Was it was that your thing because you were a people person? That’s what, you know. Like back in the day when we were at school, we’d go to like the careers adviser and they’d say, oh yeah, you’re Asian, so you’ve got to be a doctor or an accountant, or do you see what I mean? And are you doing well in your A-levels or whatever? What was going through your mind there in terms of you dropped into the estate agent job? That’s all sales orientated. And then you ended up I think it was.

I remember I had a few of my friends were older and a couple of them were in the sales, and I quite liked that you could make your own destiny, you know, in the sense of if you could see, you know, driving nice cars, wearing a nice watch, nice clothes and, you know, ultimately come from a very similar background to me. And I quite like that, that, you know, they they’d been able to achieve that from, from, I suppose hard work. And it’s something I’ve never really reflected on if I’m honest. Prav it was more I saw an opportunity in that and looked at recruitment agencies, looked at estate agents. But I don’t think I ever thought, oh, it’s a people’s thing. I just kind of saw other people doing it, doing well and thought, I’ll give that a crack that that might work out.

But both of those roles, I’m sure there were others, but recruitment estate agent, you need communication skills, people skills. You need to be able to get on with people. A bit of banter and sales, right? So whether whether that was deliberate or not, there must have been some subconscious there, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, like I think I started with always like that at school that you had your group of friends, you saw each other every day. You’d have a good laugh. And that was really my my purpose to school. It was to connect, have fun. You know, the academic side was never the thing that was driving me. So I suppose, yeah, subconsciously it was to get into a sector that you could communicate with people and, you know, enjoy ultimately. And, and yeah, a state agency was it was tough. I was very it didn’t, didn’t, didn’t quite um, you know, the first couple of years was amazing. I think, you know, you kind of get that stereotypical view of an estate agent. And to be fair, it’s not wrong. You know, they are, as people say, and actually ended up doing quite, quite well with the estate agency. And then the just late 2007, actually, the recession hit. And I remember we went from like four branches and about 70 employees down to a core group of like ten of us. And it got incredibly tough. And, um, I remember sitting there thinking like, I’m earning way less than I was earning. This is not going in the direction that I anticipated. And so I went to a recruitment agency, and I just started starting to apply for a few jobs and then a telemarketing sales role come up for a media company. And I thought, I’ll you that that sounds quite cool. And, you know, fast paced and a movement. And then I found out it was in venture into media. That’s big niche. But anyway, come in and met with Ken and then that was it.

You when you look back. If you could rewind by 20 years, knowing what you know now, would you go on and do a degree and all of that? Has it held you back in any way? What would you tell your children about that?

Yeah, you know, that is something I’ll definitely reflect on and I think. I would definitely have tried much harder at academics. And and I think that that would have put me an even greater step down. And I think education is important. And now I’ve got two young children, you know, that that is a big focus for me. But personally, I don’t think it’s the be all and end all. I think it’s a combination of education, you know, work work ethic and application is, is and also just just common sense. Right. You see a lot of these people that go off to Oxford and Cambridge and they’re super intelligent, but they can’t they can’t sit in a room with them.

Just totally dreamy.

People like Prav, man. People like probably Oxford boy, you snobs can’t no common sense. But listen. Listen what?

What I was about to say, Craig, was this right? You know, I run a business, a few businesses, and I also have a lot of friends. Well, let’s just go to my business, right? More than half the people in my business do not have a degree. But I would say I shit you not some of the smartest human beings I’ve ever met in their craft. Whether it’s software development, whether it’s design, whether it’s user experience, having those people skills. And so even though Craig, you might sit back and reflect and actually one one of my team members who’s been with me the longest, James has always said to me, oh, do you know what? It would have been nice if I, if I had my time to go back and get any way smart enough to go and get his degree and postgraduate degrees and all the rest of it. But let me tell you, it is his experiences and his exposure to having not done that and being exposed to other things in early life that has shaped him to be who he is today and. Your path would have been completely different as well.

If you’d have slapped a degree on the end of your name. You may not be sat where you are today because the estate agent role, the recession, the fact that then you went looking for a recruitment job and then you landed in telesales and the the butterfly effect of the way the stars aligned. Right. Had you where it is. But you know, as a father, we all want I guess we all want better for our kids, don’t we? And perhaps the opportunities that were not afforded to us. And you think, okay, well, let me push education your way. Right. But but it may be that, you know, you have a you have a couple of kids and you think, do you know what one of them’s cut out for the academic route, but the other 1st May not be. And that’s cool, you know, and and that’s my take on it, even though I’ve, I’ve gone deep into education and thrown a ton of time to my education, I don’t necessarily believe that that is what is required for success.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s a really good point. And it’s funny you say that actually, because my daughters are still so young. I’ve got a six year old and a four year old, and I can already see their personalities that the the eldest, you know, she is quite academically driven, really enjoys school is where I see a lot of the a lot of me and the younger one, you know. Much more chatty. And, you know, she she wants to be in the room and be in the thick of it. But but you know, education is second. So it’s. Yeah, it’s a really good point. I think it’s playing to their strengths isn’t it. And I think that that comes into business as well, looking at people’s core strengths and values and making sure you’re equipped in, in the right way to, to fulfil what they can.

Craig, on that first day when you went into FMC, what were your first impressions of the Dental market? I mean, we’ll talk about FMC as well because it’s such a special company. But the Dental market, what were your first impressions of it and how right or wrong were you?

I suppose first is a tough one because, you know, I think. You kind of learning the ropes and you’re understanding what the products are and why we produce the products that we produce. Obviously, I remember making those calls and being hung up on a few times thinking why these people are not very nice and but, you know, you learn the role and you understand that, you know, dentists in particular are incredibly busy people, and they’re only making money when they’re in the chair. So they’re the last thing they really want to do is speak to someone who’s going to sell them a subscription. So but I think as I’ve gone through the profession and, you know, as you introduce Payman and we hold lots of events, we hold lots of awards, and I think the dental community is an incredibly powerful thing. And, you know, amazing people, you know, there’s a lot of collaboration and people are there to help each other. So I’ve come to be incredibly fond of this sector. And yeah, I think it’s full of great people.

What about FMC as a company? I mean, there’s a certain buzz about that company. You’ve got to take your hat off to Ken and Kimberly. I guess the the way that they made that company a meritocracy, I think. Yeah. The fact that you went from the bottom to the top of that company shows that, right? Yeah. But also I feel like, you know, very hard working. This is from the outside, right? You tell me if it’s a very hard working and yet lots of fun at the same time.

Yeah. I think you just absolutely summed it up. I think, you know, Ken’s become an incredibly close friend of mine. And, you know, I’m a close family friend and he knows, you know, my and my family. And, you know, we’re continue to be friends, you know, as we are. But I think the one thing that that Ken and Kimberly instilled was, you know, one is work ethic for sure. You know, and what one thing you can’t say about either of them is, is that they didn’t lead from the front. You know, I think Ken was the guy. And, you know, that that guy’s work rate and effort and being relentless was was something that really rubbed off on me. And but, you know, through my career looking at him, just thinking how was he got the energy, you know, 4 or 5 in the morning in amounts out for a run working on this, doing that. And. And you know, I’m a competitive guy by nature and, you know, incredibly skilled as for him as his business. But he made me want to beat him, you know, in return as a business owner was phenomenal because it and I remember sitting there thinking, I’m going to absolutely smash in this week. I’m going to see more people. I’m going to do this. You know, chances are it didn’t in the early days because he was it was he was on it. But you know, with hard work come a lot of reward and a lot of fun. So, you know, the team culture is, you know, you see everyone at the awards that they will be Uber professional and Uber slick and they all work their socks off. But as soon as the job’s done, we have a good time. And, you know, and I think that’s what it’s all about. You got to do that. And they all get rewarded really well for that.

What do you think it was about? I mean, you jumped around a few jobs before there and then you stuck there. What do you think it was about it that kept you there whereas all the other jobs lost you? Was it the progression?

Yeah. I mean, it’s not something like, you know, like with with progression. It’s not something that’s like unless you’re on like a gradual scheme and everything’s completely mapped out and you’re going to get to this point and then you’re going to go there, you know, thinking in kind of small to medium sized businesses, it doesn’t really operate like that. And I don’t think we really operate like that now. So I don’t think so much it was the progression. I’ve just really enjoyed it, really enjoyed the culture, and I really enjoyed being around Ken and and the team and, you know, the sense of being part of something that was successful and playing a part in that. And I think, you know, big, big learning for me is if you can get everyone on that journey and, and everybody feels like they’re part of that success, that that goes ahead of a long way on top of salary, on top of bonuses, which obviously are important as well. But I think that self esteem and and being part of a success is, is just as important.

You mentioned earlier might have been offline that you had two stints at FMC. You joined in the early days. You went away for a bit. You came back. What happened in between and what pulled you back?

Yeah, it’s actually Prav. It’s quite funny. I remember I come for the interview and, and I actually interviewed for the digital advertising display role and, and then there was also a telesales role. And I really wanted the display role but didn’t quite make it, so actually got rejected for the position. And then I got a phone call to say, actually, you think you’d be suited for that? And I remember I come in on my induction and Payman you probably remember James Howell.

Yeah, yeah. And Beth.

So, so Jane James Howell and Beth. Yeah, he was a sales director at the time. And he turned around and he said, the thing is, Craig, I’m. The people have been FMC for ten years. This is our culture. Nobody lives. And about three weeks into my role, I found out that the business has been sold to Springer and. What was going on here? And and then James left and a couple of people left and I asked him, this is not what I got told. In fairness, you know, the core team was still here. And yeah, we carried on working, but I think I went from education straight into work, and I never really got that time to do anything for myself. So, you know, like people that goes to go on to uni, they get that time and living away from home and, and the rest of it. So I decided that I wanted to take a year out and travel so, so handed by noticing I went went travelling for just over a year and then come back. Same thing as I’ve kind of got got out of system, had a lot of fun memories for life. And then I dropped Ken a line and just said, oh, I’m back, you know, are you doing anything? And then he said, oh, actually, we’ve got this position. And he had a company called Premium Practice Dentistry.

I remember.

Yeah, yeah.

So I went there and I said, yeah, really. You know, we had a good chat and we met over, over a drink in Hartford, and he offered me the role. And about two weeks before I started, he got, I got a phone call from Tim and he said, oh, Ken’s just reacquired FMC. How would you feel about working from Shenley? And at that point you don’t really understand anything and also start. Yeah, that’s closer to home. Perfect. You know that that works really well. And and walked back into the organisation and it was literally like nothing could change. You know, the same faces were there. Ken was back at the helm, Julian English was around and and then. Yeah, come back. So it was, it was a it was a for me. I didn’t really understand the whole nuance of what had happened and the challenge of reacquiring the company and redeveloping the culture. But but yeah. So it was a, it was a the first stint was more of a just kind of getting into a new role from a state agency. And it was really when I come back from travelling and kind of had a thought that, you know, I need to take on my career now in my early 20s and wanted nothing.

So. But how does it feel? I mean, it was from, you know, we’re talking 2008 till now where the landscape in media has changed so massively. And, you know, in many ways there was, you know, I was advertising with FMC from the day we started. Yeah. But in in many ways, some of the dollars that I’ve been was giving to FMC, I’m now giving to Mark Zuckerberg, you know, and such a big change and navigating that change. And, you know, every industry is going through it. But media kind of first in that. Have you’ve watched that happen. Right. You’ve watched the transition from print to digital.

Yeah. And I think that’s a very broad question. But you know, I think it doesn’t take a rocket scientist. Right. That print media isn’t it was I think there’s still a big part of print media that that remained, you know, with the profession and even going out talking to dentists, you know, they could still consume print media. It’s just not what it was. And I think the issue now where you’ve got with, with, with marketeers and, and business owners is everyone’s looking at that final 3% of the funnel. Yeah. Everyone wants to know I put in x pound and I get X pounds back. And there’s only certain types of media that can perform that. Right. And you look at in the funnel marketing and lead generation. And I suppose our job as a, as a, as a media company is really to show facts and educate that you can’t just focus on that final 3%. You know, we can deliver campaigns that will deliver you your ROI. But, you know, I think there was a podcast that Steven Bartlett did when he was saying, you know, people have forgotten about the the 97% at the top of the funnel, you know, and you look at the big brands like Apple, like Coca-Cola, like Google, you know, they’re everywhere and they’re everywhere for a reason because they’re they’re building that brand. So for us, we’ve really had to adapt to make sure that, however, a Dental professional consumes media, we want to make sure that we have a LinkedIn channel and a leading approach. And really our job is to work with companies to to identify what their need is and make sure that we, you know, we put together a solution that will tick all the boxes. We’re not going to just work with a company on a one month campaign to do the final 3% because, you know, the world doesn’t work like that. So I think we’ve had to adapt our products, but we’ve also had to adapt to becoming more of a solution sales organisation rather than just a media sales company, if that makes sense.

So, Craig, back to your back to your story, back to your journey. So from that sales, what how did you evolve? So so I want you to give me a almost like a potted history of sales professional doing well, hitting your targets, getting your bonuses, enjoying your role to now being one of three bosses of the company. Right. What what happened in your evolution as a human being and as a professional? And then how did that even come about? Like like what was the what was the what was the journey? If that’s the question, you can sort of articulate and answer for us.

Yeah. So I think if you, if you, if you spoke to Ken and asked him about me, he would say I was an absolute annoyance for years because I think I got went into the role and to me, sales was always a numbers game. You know, if you if you believe in your product, which I did and you know, we’ve developed and I’m more passionate about our products than we’ve ever been, but if you’ve just got to get through to the people to explain it, and if you can do that, you’re going to do all right. And I remember my first role was selling tickets to the World Aesthetic Congress, which was held at the QE two. And I think we used to charge some £600 a ticket, and it was really looking at those kind of top end high, you know, cosmetic orientated professionals. And we did really well. You know, we see a huge turnout and and you know the brand was really strong. And then we went on to, to sell in subscriptions. And again it started to get a lot of traction. And I think probably my ego got got in front of me from, from a, you know, a young age from seeing success and, and earning quite well and saying to Kenya, I want to do this, I want to head this up, I want to I want to do this. And I suppose, you know, looking back now is is I was in the job for about a year, didn’t have a clue about anything. And it. Credit to Ken. He managed that situation really well and, you know, he’d be really kind, but it’d also be really honest.

So he’d say, you know, it kind of said, you know, things are going really well, but you need to work on this. You need to work on that. And, you know, let’s do this. Let’s put you on that course. You know, he was really instrumental in kind of my development. And then Kimberly was involved in the organisation. And for anyone who met Kimberly will know that she was a very unique character. And, you know, she she’d become a dear friend of mine and was was, was again instrumental in my personal development and my, my growth. And she really, really pushed me. And she, you know, she, she’d set outlandish targets, you know, that you just. And there’s a fine balance, right? I’m sure you guys have it with you with teams and the products that you sell to say, you know, this is what we want to try and generate in terms of new customer acquisitions. And if you go too high, you switch the team off because they go it’s just ridiculous. And then but you don’t want to sell it too low because obviously, you know, you want to deliver what you set out for. And Kimberly used to set outlandish numbers, and I’d go home and I’d be like, she’s mad, absolutely mad. And but then you get to the end of the month and you do hit them. And then there’s the realisation of, you know what? If you put the effort in and you’re home still and you try really hard, it is achievable.

And that was something that really stuck with me. He’s like, you know, you hear people about this blue sky thinking and, you know, shoot for the stars and all of these cliche sayings. But, you know, Kimberly was was, you know, she was someone who did that. And, you know, we weren’t always him, but but it showed that you could. So so that really stuck with me. And I’d always try coming through, whether it be with, you know, tele sales. And then I moved on to head up a magazine called laboratory, which was like our next title. You know, what was about 2000 labs and probably 50 suppliers in the lab? Well, back in 2008 and again, I grew that title and had phenomenal success with it. And, you know, the more people that you get out and see and the more people that you can show your proposition to, and you believe in your product. And then, you know, ultimately the end user believes in the product, you’re going to get results. And we got really good results from that. And then again moved on to another title and then saw a really big opportunity with exhibitions. So, you know, I think conference is a kind of paid for conferences and, you know, moved out by then and you had two big, large national exhibitions. And we we launched like the digital dentistry show. So we went a bit more niche, and then we launched the private dentistry show. And again, that was out seeing companies selling space, but really developing a proposition and going out to market.

And I then got appointed as commercial director. I think that was 2015, 2015, 2016, so really stayed on the events and supporting media and worked really closely with Joe Lovett, who was a great guy, you know, very charismatic, and I’ll learn a lot from Joe as well, just the way that he’s with people. And I think, you know, again, it’s all these cliche sayings, every day’s a school day. But, you know, I think in seeing things with, with, with people and, you know, that that works really well. It’s just adapting it to your own style and thinking, you know, I’ll utilise that and I’ll try that. And that doesn’t quite work. And just being authentic. And so I went on to do that and then. Obviously then the pandemic hit in 2020. And you know, I’m sure everyone’s aware that unfortunately Kim passed away in that period and can add a very, very tough time. So Kim has actually stuck over in in Bali at that point. And it was I mean, one of the most challenging times, one, to deal with losing a really close friend and then trying to support a friend and a colleague who’s going through absolute hell, but then also looking at the business and thinking, you know, fuck, what the hell are we going to do? You know, it was a and I’m sure everyone went through that. And, you know, looking back, you know, taking out all of the terrible things that happened with Kimberley, Covid was actually one of the most enjoyable times at work, I’d say.

And we as a team will sit there and we agree with that because, you know, our backs were against the wall and we just saw the spirit in the team come together and and we innovated and we launched new things. And you know, we got some things wrong, but we we got some things really, really right. And, you know, that really propelled us into this, this new era post Covid. And then following that, Ken returned from Bali and sat down with myself and Jason and just said, you know, I need to be there for my family and I can’t be as involved. And and he appointed us as NDS of the business, you know, and he kind of took a back step. So he wasn’t involved really from 2020 onwards. And again, I think that was quite a steep learning curve from 2020 to 2022 that you just got to work it out and you’ve got to make mistakes and you’ve just got to keep trying and keep pushing and don’t give up. So it’s it feels like therapy. Yeah. You know, like, you know, just explaining it that way. I think it’s been a real roller coaster of a journey because you learn things off so many different people and you adapt it into your own technique and your own way of, you know, your own values and what you believe in and how you position things, you know, coupled with just just taking risks and going for opportunities and just working it out. And ultimately here we are.

And but the thought of private equity backed management buyout, whose idea was that who first came up with that idea. Was that you guys or was that Ken’s idea or.

Yeah. I mean, it wasn’t really an idea. I think obviously, again, going back to what what happened with Ken. And then he had another tragic loss, which his son.

Yeah.

Because as parents, you can’t even imagine and you don’t even want to imagine, you know, but we still had the business to run. And we stood up, Ken, to support. And I think, as you just mentioned, that the media landscape was has changed dramatically over the years. And, you know, we we come out of Covid and much, much stronger business, you know, from from our offering and our multi-channel approach and the results that we were delivering and our transparency of results and looking at the end of the funnel and our social and our content creation and all of these things are either the modern media business should offer. And like anything, we had a big community. You know, we had a big following. And that’s really how we’ve always commercialised. We monetise our community, so we’ve always offered education. And we looked at developing an online platform for education. We felt like, you know, there’s some really good platforms out there, but there was nothing that was really simple and effective for the for the end user. And credit to Tim, you know, he really spearheaded that project along with Lori, who’s our marketing director, and he’s kind of like head of product. And they developed this phenomenal platform, which was like a Netflix interface, e-learning platform. And obviously, we’re really lucky that we’ve got an abundance of content from some of the leading clinicians globally because of the magazines that we publish, and we put that into an online platform and really without much effort and energy, we generated thousands of subscribers. So I remember sitting there and looking at the numbers and thinking, well, we’ve got the vast majority of the advertising market, you know, in the media landscape because of the size of our portfolio and, and our multichannel offering, there isn’t any, you know, and I think everybody there’s space in the market for everyone. So and I think there’s some really strong other publications out there. But in terms of the breadth and the reach. Wasn’t anybody that could really come close to what we had to offer.

So the growth.

Opportunity in media wasn’t really there unless we looked at other verticals, so looked at similar markets like veterinary or optical or. But then there was just this, this, this moment of saying, well, we haven’t really pushed the education side and we’ve generated this, so what could we do if we really went for it? And myself, Tim and Jason and Ken sat down and, you know, it needed a lot of energy, a lot of investment. And I think, you know, we collectively agreed that if we could raise the funds that Ken would be willing to because, you know, he’s he’s he wants to be with his family and he’s gone through that, that time. And so we went through a crazy. A crazy period, and it was really eye opening and fascinating. And I actually listened to your brother’s podcast, Prav, about obviously when he joined the.

Dental.

And he talked about, you know, the, the model of private equity. And I think you hear all these things about private equity. And straightaway everybody gets their back up and they’re like, well, yeah, it’s scary. But you go through the process and it’s fascinating. Absolutely fascinating is the only way that I can describe it. And I actually loved every minute of it. I thought it was phenomenal. So we we went out and we put our proposition to ten different private equity firms. We also looked at other ways of lending. And out of the ten, I think we got eight offers, which was, you know, it was great. It really showed that we had a solid business and a solid growth plan, and they really liked what we were doing, and we gelled really well with two guys, a guy called Abbott and a guy called Alfred, and Alex, the founder and CEO of a company called Coniston Capital. And and they battled management buyout. And then yes, it was the end of August and we’re yeah, we’re right in the thick of it.

But how did you know what to do? Did you have corporate finance?

Yes. We used a company called Castle Finance and Lake Victoria. And so again, if anybody’s looking at going through a process I couldn’t recommend hard enough. She was absolutely phenomenal. Phenomenal. She you know, you go through, you meet with them, you talk about the business, you talk about your growth plans, and you know what you’re looking to achieve and timelines and and then they basically challenge you on so many points and, and really gets you to really understand the business deeply and look at all of the different. Levers that you can pull in the opportunities that there are, and then you pull together an. So an information memorandum, which they then share out to their network of private equity firms. And then they invite you to come in and you basically present a bit like Dragons Den. And then they sit there and they grill you for half an hour in a nice way. They’re there to get a job done as well. Yeah. You know, they’re looking to make investments and then and then, you know, you kind of shortlist it and then you go, you might go for dinner with them. You go and have a beer and you see what they’re like socially and make sure that you kind of values are aligned and you really believe in, in the direction that, that you’re taking a business and that they believe in that and they’re not going to come in and try and change that. And then, yeah, we’ve picked them and so far they’ve been phenomenal that let’s get on with it.

But you said.

They’re majority shareholders right. So they they can do whatever they like. They can they can pull the plug on you or sell you or whatever it is. Right. So if you say to them, this is my growth plan, within x number of years, Y will happen. If you don’t hit that plan, they can literally mess you up, right? Is that correct? Is there someone on your board now from them? How does it work?

No. So yeah. So so it sits on the board. But then we also we have a Non-exec chairman James Tyler was CEO of Dennis Media. So Dennis Media was published a title called The Week. And I think they they exited for 330,000,002 years ago. So you know massive subscription business. It’s got a wealth of experience and knowledge from from media. And, and he sits on, on the board with us as a conduit. I suppose the thing is, Payman is, is like any partnership, right? Is you’ve got a team, you could fire all of your team tomorrow if you wanted to. You went out of business.

Yeah, I know, but then, you know, like, are you having to answer to them now or, you know, people talk about the downside of this sort of thing is that they will interfere with you and so forth.

Yeah.

So they could write is the honest answer if they wanted to. But they’re not they’re not. You know, we’ve got we outline a budget and we outline an approach and we outline an investment. And as long as we stick to that and we don’t, you know, draw £1 million extra investment out to go and, you know, set up a business in UAE without, you know, with you anyway. So, you know, we’re completely aligned on our, on our, on our journey and where we’re going to go. And I suppose, you know, let’s not be foolish that there’s going to be some ups and downs in the next 5 to 10 years, and I’m sure there will be difficult conversations and I’m sure we’ll have difficult conversations with them. But but we’re all aligned to where we want to get to.

And have you suffered with imposter syndrome in the middle of all of this? I would yeah.

It’s a it’s a real interesting one because I had a chat with James last week and and honestly, looking back, I think I’ve suffered with it my whole life. Generally, I think, you know, I’ll sit in meetings with, you know, Harvard grads and people that develop, you know, all of these incredible platforms for dentists. And they’re Uber intelligent and some of the brightest people I’ve ever met. And I’m sat having dinner with them and they’re buying. I always leave there just feeling frustrated, saying, you know, what the hell just happened there? But but yeah. So I think that is in you know, obviously I think that is still something that I’m getting to grips with.

So, Craig, I just want to want to ask a few more questions about the process. I’ve been through that process with a dental practice. Right. And, you know, you have this idea. You go to an advisor, corporate finance, a broker, whatever that is, right? And they put, you know, you produce a pitch document essentially, and then you went to how how many people you said eight people said yes or whatever, we’d like more information or whatever. Yeah.

So we went out to ten. So we met ten. And then I come back to say that they were interested.

So your pitch, your pitch was, hey, we need some dough to buy Ken out. This is how the business is going to grow and provide you, the investor, with a return on investment. Right. Because if that model, if that story wasn’t there, they they ain’t just going to stump up the cash for no reason. Right. Yeah. So, so so you’ve got to prove to them that, hey, whatever you’re putting in here, you’re going to get that back. And so in a period of time, an eight out of ten people said, I think your story is great. Yeah, and we won in. Right. Just talk me through the process. You’ve now got eight on the table. Yeah. Was it a really easy decision like the one that stuck out as, like they’re the clear winner because, you know, we’ve had a pint with all eight of them and these were the coolest guys. Or was it, you know, the questions they asked or the direction in which they wanted to take the company was aligned with yours. What was talk me through that process.

Yeah. So a couple that we met and straightaway you just, you know, like you’ve got interesting territory. These are not people that we can work with. They’re just not, you know, they’re just they didn’t come across as really nice, genuine, authentic people. So they was off. So I think there was three that were left. And, you know, all really nice companies. I think the thing that stood out with Coniston was one they. Like. I suppose the other two felt like it was more lip service, like they you could see it was a solid business with, you know, a market leading brand, really engaged community, you know, and a big potential for, for growth on that, on the on the professional side. And I felt like a lot of it was lip service just to try and get a deal over the line. And then with Coniston and the thing that I really liked about those those guys is they were straight talkers, you know, they challenged, they didn’t just say, yeah, that’s great. What would you do in this scenario? What would you do in that scenario? Have you thought about this? You know they challenged on that media change from social. And obviously, you know we’ve got a business plan for for all of these elements. And ultimately just I think just we just clicked with them. You know, I suppose this when you say you’re going to buy a house, you know, you do get a feeling and an instinct and, you know, you go through the facts and the figures and ultimately they were the guys that one could meet Ten’s demands. Because, you know, this, let’s be real, can add a number that you needed to achieve. And that was a number that they had to be willing to pay, which they weren’t. So that was great. And then they really had to believe in us and that to challenge what we wanted to get to.

So of the three people that you shortlisted, did all three hit the magic number? Yeah. So so it was so, so the number was the number went out of the equation then. And then it was about the right fit.

The right fit. Yeah.

Obviously the number was the first thing that needed to be agreed. Yeah. And then that was agreed. And then and then it was a case of like who can we Gerald? Who do we believe we can work with and obviously gambatte to to payment point of, you know, they can do this and that. We need to make sure that we were comfortable in, you know, picking the right partners and.

So when you pick the partner, is there a whole process of due diligence that they went through? They tore through your finances, the books, the team, the the structure. What was that process like? The thing.

Is, the Craig Cairns sold that company a couple of times before already, so he must have dotted all the i’s and cross all the T’s several times before. Right?

Yeah.

And the thing is, you know, you can’t build a brand like FMC half heartedly, you know, so we have lots of structures and everything was in place. I think you know, me, Tim and Jason will bring quite a different element to the business from very operational. So I think if you ask Jason about how the process went, it’d be very different answer to mine. You know, I thought it went pretty well. They challenged a couple of things like, but Jason’s really the guy that was in the thick of that, pulling all of the packs together, providing information, and did a phenomenal job.

How long was that process, Craig?

This was the just over 11 weeks.

And was was this 11 weeks of day in and day out, constant information requests, providing this, providing that. And during that due diligence process, was there ever any point where you thought, fucking hell, this ain’t going to happen?

Yeah, multiple times. Multiple times. I mean, the challenging thing is I still got the business to run and and you’ve still got the magazines out the door. You still got put the events on. You still got planned for the awards. You know, you still got to keep innovation. You still got to keep the team motivated as well as get through 200 questions a day. And, you know, of course, I think anyone who’s gone through that process who says that it’s just easy and you’ve never questioned yourself, I wouldn’t believe, or I’d want to know what their secret sauce is, because there was multiple times we’d sit there and think, Jesus Christ, is this worth it? This is like, what’s that? What’s this? Why have they raised that? And then you get through it and you realise that, you know, there’s tactics that are involved. But also, you know, anyone who’s dealt with lawyers, buying a practice, selling a practice, you know, they asked questions they’re had to ask and become irrelevant over a period of time. But again, you learn a lot through it. Right? And and you start to understand, you know, I’ve never done an acquisition, I’ve never done a buyout, you know, and we’re going through our first acquisition now, which is incredibly exciting. Which, which, you know, I can’t go on too much into the detail of it because it’s due to complete next week. But, you know, all of these things, you’re then on the other side of becoming a buyer and not a, you know, so it’s. Yeah. Just just a fascinating fun.

And Craig my my sorry my understanding of of from what you’ve told me, the plan that you presented to them was that you’re going to shift to more of an AR model annual recurring revenue model. Is that right?

Yeah. No.

I wouldn’t say a shift because, you know, the heart of what we do is media, right? And we will never lose that. And that is something that we need to maintain and continue to innovate. And, you know, one of the big things that I really liked about this process was understanding your why. Why do we do what we do? And ultimately we do what we do to help businesses grow. You know, from a media perspective, we work with brands to help build their brand, grow recommendations, generate ROI, and and educate the profession on the services that are available. And then we looked at the professional side. And if you look at the the offering in the market, again, there’s great solutions in the market. But what we believe is there isn’t really anything that really empowers that, that that professional development from a practice or an individual side. So it’s how can we create solutions to really help practices and individuals grow. You know, and I think from, from developing that this, this naturally that becomes a subscription led model. So you know, we will never drop and we will never forget about media. That is the heart of what we’re doing. It will always be. But we will have an assumption of professional services where we will really look to help and grow the professional side of the business.

We can’t have someone from FMC on and not talk about things like Dentistry’s top 50. Yeah. And and and other controversial subjects like awards themselves. I mean, there’s a love hate relationship in the profession with both of those two things, right. And I guess I don’t want to be the, you know, the the guy who asks you this unpopular question, but what do you think? I mean, what do you say to the people who say, look, that all of this stuff pitting dentists against each other, implying one dentist is better than another, is sort of fake? It’s not. It’s not real.

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, like like like we went back to, I suppose, the beginning of the conversation, like self esteem and recognition is a big thing. And I think really people don’t understand why we launched the awards when, when we launched them and what, what what you know, going back to why why is on that. It’s not to put people up against each other. It’s we’re getting to the publishing awards and we have done since, since I’ve been in the business. And you with any awards. Right. They’re self nominated. You have to write about yourself and we enter brand of the year. We enter publishing company of the year. And when you sit there and you write about your business, it really makes you reflect, like going back to what we did with this, you know, talking about corporate finance at the end. And you look at it and you think, actually, you know what? I think we can improve on that. And I think we can we can do this a bit different. And it’s only when you actually take the time to sit there and write down and really reflect on why you think you are the leading business in, you know, the South, or why you think you’re the leading practice in the North or whatever it may be.

And that led us to really up our game on, on, on the brand side of things and look to the bits that we weren’t really happy with and what we like, what we didn’t like. And I’ll tell you that we improved our brand position by about 10% off the back of entering those awards and every year. And that’s really the aim of the awards, right? If we if every dental professional that enters those awards, or any practice that enters those awards can sit down and reflect and actually has an impact of making them try harder, 1 or 2%. That’s a good thing for the profession and a good thing for patients. Okay, whether people think is right or wrong to put people up against each other, it’s a good thing because everybody’s trying harder, everyone’s producing better dentistry. And the only winner in that is the patient.

Yeah. But do you have do you have sympathy for the, you know, for the for the dentist who’s sitting in Yorkshire who hasn’t even entered the awards because that’s not what he does. And you’ve called some his his next door practice. Best practice Yorkshire or something. Do you have empathy for that guy? He’s not into going for awards. He’s into taking care of his patients. Do you have do you have empathy for the position of that guy who thinks, you know, what the hell?

Yeah, absolutely.

But I suppose, you know, we can only judge what’s put in front of us, right? And we’ve got a panel of 20, 25 leading clinicians, you know, chaired by David David Houston. And it’s a vigorous process. You know, they all take the time out and they come to the office and they go through these awards. And. Estate and I cannot tell you like I’m in credit to all of them that take their time out because of the love and passion that they’ve got in sector. And you know they will ultimately choose who they believe is the best that’s in front of them. Yeah. And you can’t pick the guy that didn’t enter. And you know, I suppose you’ve got to feel for these guys that are you know, there’s probably some of the best clinicians out there, right, that aren’t on Instagram, aren’t on Facebook. Yeah. Their clinical skills are way above anybody that’s ever won an award. I can only imagine. And no one really knows who they are. And that’s that’s fine. Right. Because that’s that’s the lane that they’ve, they’ve chosen and that’s what they do. And, and you know, that’s it. There’s nothing else really to say, is there. It’s like we can only judge and follow a process that’s in front of us. And, you know, if he was at the awards on Friday night in Leicester, it was incredible. You know, like looking at people’s reactions when they’re shortlisted and when they win. But like that is one of the best feelings of the job. Like means everything to them.

I mean, one thing’s for sure, you guys have really got that process down to a tee. When you go to one of those award ceremonies, you just feel like there’s a buzz in the air. And particularly that Leicester one, it’s a loads, loads of fun that night. Loads and loads of fun. All the teams are out and so forth. Tell me about the process of actually hosting something like that. I mean, you guys must be very slick in it right now, by now. But you know, there’s massive productions and teams and everyone’s stressed out. Well, tell me the process. How far ahead are you working for the awards?

Yeah, it’s about six months. And again, I cannot take any credit. And to be honest, I don’t really understand.

The love that.

I’m just being honest. Right. I just, you know, we’ve got the production team, you’ve got Leander, who’s our event director, who also hosts the awards. You know, they’re be in the office till like 9:00 at night, like a good month before the awards. So, you know, every day and they’re making sure. And they’re perfectionist and they really care. So in answer to your question, I don’t really understand the whole process of it, but I know that they work incredibly hard to make deliver that as you see it.

And what about the top 50, man? Because I’d say the top 50 is even more controversial sort of thing. I mean, do I need to spell out the charge?

Just what’s your.

Thoughts on top.

50?

I think it probably sells loads of magazines and things. Right. It’s one of those things that everyone’s interested in. So, you know, it’s got attention. It’s definitely, definitely an attention grabber. I’m sure everyone reads it. I’m cool with it, dude. But, but but there’s a lot of people who don’t know what I mean. Well, I can spell out the problem, but the idea, the the idea that it’s voted for or was voted for now, now you guys just just announced it for yourself. And again, it comes back to the same question of really, is number 14 better than number 67.

Yeah. And I think, you know, when it was numbered I don’t think that was right. And I think everyone’s always misunderstood how the top 50 worked and no one’s really ever knew. You know ultimately and I think can explain this when when he was on the pod we’re we’re incredibly well connected. Right. In terms of we know what’s going on in the sector and we know what, you know, people that are having an impact, people that aren’t having an impact. So we utilise our network of our awards judges, our editorial board, and we’re asking people to put forward who they believe had a big impact in the sector. And then ultimately, the content team will sit down and they will go through and they basically shortlist and they will pick 50 people that they believe has had the biggest impact on the sector. And I think if we can’t pick that list, there’s not many people that can. And I suppose we would always challenge anyone that has something to say about it, to say, well, who don’t think it should be on the list. And we’re having that conversation to understand, you know, why they believe they shouldn’t be on the list. And, you know, we always take that that feedback and review. Now, ultimately, every time that’s happened, no one’s been able to answer the question because, you know, I think the 50 that have always been picked have had a big impact on the sector, and they’ve done great things for the profession.

I think part of your problem is the brand dentistry. Yeah, because if we’re talking about dentistry is top 50, there’s all sorts of people who missed out. You know, academics, you know, people in dentistry is such a big subject. Whereas I think maybe, maybe you guys are more sort of general practice oriented. But listen, dude, I’ve got no problem with it myself. I know loads of people do though. Do you get a lot of blowback about it?

Oh, every year. Every year.

And so what are what do people say? What’s the criticism? Is it having them at all or is it who’s on the list?

I think you’ve.

Seen a lot of comments on social around top 50, and.

I’ve sent you quite a lot.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

There’s always going to be people like, I think if you put yourself above the parapet and you’ve got a big social following, whether you know, or you’re a big media company and you do these things, you’re always going to have a big fan base and people that love what you do. But you’re also going to have people that detractors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we’re we’re really comfortable with that because you, you know, you cannot please everyone. And ultimately we are we’re in the market of eyeballs. And when the top 50 is launched, that is the number one most visited day on that website. And I’m pretty sure all of the detractors will jump on that site to see who’s on the list.

Yeah, that’s for sure.

You know, so if it was that big of an issue and, you know. You know, they really care. You know, obviously it means a lot to people. And we’re only ever trying to do good things. We’re never we’re never going out with the attention to say, let’s do this is how many people we can wind up. People think, you know, generally think people sit there and think, oh, they’ve done it again. They’re doing this is controversial. Like everything we do, we’re just there to try and do good for the profession. Whether it’s the award, whether it’s recognising people in the top 50. Whether it’s putting people on a speaking program, I think it’s all there to try and do good for the profession. And ultimately we’re never going to be able to please everyone. But, you know, we keep trying and we work really hard and, you know, we don’t always get it right. Nobody gets it right all the time. But but one thing we won’t do is we won’t stop. And we keep trying really hard. And we make sure that we do the best that we can to keep elevating the dental profession. And I think, you know, if I’m being biased, I think we do a good job of it, and we want to make sure that we keep doing that.

And we definitely do. Before Prav jumps in, tell me, how do you get people to come in and stay till 9 p.m.? I mean, how does that work?

Yeah, not not not once ever till now.

I think it just goes back to culture and and care and, you know, just, just. It sounds corny, but just just the love of what you do. If you really enjoy what you’re doing, you love it. Stay until 9:00 and having a bit of food and a couple of drinks with your peers while you get something together. It’s not. It’s not horrendous, is it? Yeah. You know, we’re going to get a Nando’s in and have a couple of beers while we do this. It’s like it’s fine with people you really enjoy working with. And you know what you’re going to what the output is going to be at the end of it, and what that means to, to us as a company, but what it means to the profession as well. So, you know, I think we’re really lucky in the fact that the people that we’ve got here, as James told me all those years ago, have stuck around and they’ve been here a long time. You know, I think every everybody’s been here ten years plus. And, you know, we’re building a team now. We’ve got a lot of positions open and we’ve got, you know, a new kind of era of FMC starting. And it’s really exciting. You know, not not everybody makes it, if I’m honest. And you can see that straight away. People come in if they don’t fit the culture.

You know, loving this 9:09 p.m. story, because we had one episode where we were talking about Prav recruitment process, and it turned out his number one concern is he doesn’t want people to leave at 530.

Absolute bollocks.

Absolute bollocks.

Honestly.

Listen, I urge everyone to listen to that episode. He was his number one point. Do you know what time saving employees. But go on, Trav, go on. Absolute shit. Payman.

Absolute bullshit. Um.

So, look, my take on this is during recruitment, right? And I think what pays alluding to is, is I don’t want to talk watcher. Right. And so and so there’s, there’s a culture thing that you’re talking about. So are you here because you love what you do or are you here to collect a rate. Yeah. And if you’re here just to do your job and collect a rate, you’ll fucking know it’s 530. In fact, at 525, you’ll hear your bag packing up. And when it hits 529, the fucking door’s gone, right? Yeah. And and I definitely don’t want to hire anyone like that. Right. But I’m a massive believer in in, um.

We mustn’t fetishise it, though. We mustn’t. Let me listen. Let me.

Carry on. Let me carry on.

Let me let me finish.

Just for the sake of the argument. Yeah. An enlightened 530. Everyone gets up and leaves. Yeah. Unless there’s something going on. Like. Like he’s saying, like if there’s a go on. But.

But the point I’m making, I’m a massive believer in switching off from work. Right. And I tell all my team this year, I mean, I’ve got a new guy who’s just joined the team. Ross Yeah, fucking hell. Like this. Geezers on slack at 6 a.m. messaging me. Yeah, 9 p.m. he’ll be messaging and he’ll be working and messaging me. Right.

He’s figured you out.

No, no, no, it’s not that.

It’s not that at all. Yeah, it’s not that at all. But but he tells me he absolutely loves what he does. Yeah. He feels a sense of responsibility for the projects he’s got. There’s no deadlines being given to him. But he does it out of and there’s no requirement there. Right. But I guess for me, you know, I want people to be there because they love what they do. That’s really, really important to me. Right. And you know, in that episode we’ll have mentioned that, you know, whatever it is. Right? But I’m not interested in Clockwatchers. Right. I’m not interested in someone who just wants to come in. Boom, out the door. That is what it is, right? Maybe enlightened. The work is done at 530 or whatever, right? Most of my team. Yeah, finish at 530. Since we’ve gone remote, things have changed, right? Since we’ve gone completely remote, some team members say, hey, I’m doing the school run. I’m not going to be in at this time, but I’ll get my work done right. And you’ll find some of my team are working until 7 or 8 at night. So some of them finish at four. Yeah. On certain days, whatever doesn’t really matter. Yeah, but but I think the important thing is you ask Craig the question, how do you get those people to stay tonight? You don’t have to. Yeah, you don’t have to. You don’t have to get them to do that. It’s because they want to do that because they feel either a sense of responsibility. They love it.

Yeah. Yeah. But you know, guys, the reason I ask the question was if that’s the culture in the company, then you can understand why how a junior will end up. If everyone if all the seniors are staying till nine. A junior will end up staying till nine as well. Yeah. Doesn’t necessarily mean that they want to. Yeah it could, it could be that the culture is pressuring them to.

They’ll go they’ll they’ll get filtered out.

I think the. If you look at the organisation and is now what’s the time now is 518. It’s probably three, 3 or 4 people I guess, right, that are there because there’s certain projects that need delivering or we’ve got the industry awards coming up next Thursday. You know, we do flexi time, we do remote working. We have all of these benefits. What’s the like 60% of the team will leave at 5:00. Right. They’d do a solid day’s work. Phenomenal operators. And you know that’s that’s that’s that’s that’s great. You know they’re so instrumental to the business. And then you’ve got another layer of people like you say Prav that it really brought in to what we do, what our our vision is, where we’re trying to get to. And they’re putting the extra yards to make sure that the projects finessed and, you know, they take the extra time and effort. And if they’re in the office an hour later just to get that extra level of detail and delivery that they do that. And I think it’s, you know, you can’t have everyone in an organisation being a racehorse or being there till 9:00 at night and you know, you need to have a good blend of people that come in and they do a really solid job and they they give good output and they like what they do. It’s a nice environment. And, you know, ultimately they’re it’s a job for them. And I think every organisation will have that. And you have another layer of people that you know that are a little bit more career minded, that want to put in the extra effort and the extra hours. And they care about the journey, they care about the, the, the overall outcome. And obviously, you know, people in those categories are rewarded different, different positions within the organisation.

And also different times, different days. You know, there might be a day that, okay, I’m going to stay behind because I just need to get this shit done. And other days they finish on time. Some days they finish a bit early, some days they need an early day on a Friday. That’s cool. And it’s that give and take, right? That’s what’s important.

Yeah, absolutely. Craig, tell me this.

Sometimes, you know, you’re visiting people or you have been I guess maybe you don’t do that anymore, but you’re visiting people, selling them events, ads and all that. And sometimes you’re talking to, I don’t know, global head of marketing for Invisalign, who’s a $20 billion company. And then another time you’re talking to a lab owner, tiny business, 12 people. Would you say the fundamentals of those two situations are the same? Or have you learned how to handle sort of the giant company? You know, the way the way they move slowly or whatever. Give me some thoughts on the on. It’s such a different types of people, aren’t they.

Yeah, definitely. I think.

You know, overall the fundamentals are the same. Right. Everybody’s got an objective and they’re seeing us because they need help with that objective. And whether that is they need to grow their brand. They need to get, you know, more sales. They need to drive more traffic to the website. They need to help content creation. So, you know, ultimately the fundamentals are the same. I think the language that spoke to, you know, the chief marketing officer at align. You know, to the language of Alabama is that the is not going to be talking about setas and cap and, you know, churn and and the rest of that that that kind of marketing speak. And the CMO alone is so, you know, I think it’s just adapting the language and the output to the end user. But ultimately the fundamentals is exactly the same, right? We’ve got a product that can help them with their objective, and it’s just presented in a way that they understand, okay. If I do that, you know, potentially this is the outcome that I’m going to get. Or if I do this, this is what I’m going to get. Is this exactly the same, whether you’re talking to a lion or you’re talking to Barry’s lab in Scunthorpe.

I guess you’re not playing ping pong with the eyeliner.

No. I want that rebound. I want that. Prav.

He’s lost so much. He’s lost so many ads and exhibition. Now that he owns the company, we can be open about it. Because before we play a game with him. Before we used to play a game of ping pong. He used to lose, lose like an exhibition space to me. And then he go, don’t tell anyone about this Payman.

And really.

He really suckered me in. It’s a yeah, and I don’t really play play that much.

So man.

Play. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely play. Shocking. I think I’ve got this. Go. I’ll give you six points. Head starts with six points. You see. Yeah. Yeah. Those mental.

Listen he tried that. He tried that bullshit with me years ago. Right. But can barely hold the bloody bat in my hand.

Yeah.

He’s got two left two left fingers.

And then and then and then when I’m playing table tennis, I play it as though I’m on a full flipping size tennis court. Yeah.

That’s exactly right.

So absolutely useless, you know. So, um, yeah, I give him about 10s of entertainment and then.

Yeah.

Amazing. Craig, knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently in your career?

Oh, said Bill Gregson.

What I’ve done differently, I’d have been I’d have been more patient at the beginning, in the in the early days definitely would have been more patient. And.

You know.

And impatience is a disease of the 20s. It is.

Yeah. I think I think like believing in the process. And I think obviously these are the things that you learn as you go through it. But I think, you know, if you believe in yourself and you work really hard and you get the results, you know, good things are going to happen, right? You’re going to get noticed whether you’re in in writing, whether you’re in FMC, whether you’re in a line, whether you’re in Google, you know, if you if you if you put the right level of application in and you try really hard and you get results in your area, you’re going to get noticed and good things are going to happen. But I wouldn’t rush into things thinking, this needs to happen now. Now, I think it’s good to have a level of urgency, but don’t put too much pressure. I think I put too much pressure on myself in my early days, trying to get to somewhere that didn’t quite mean to get to.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, you’re definitely the market leader in Dental media, but you’re no longer the biggest company in Dental media, from what I can see. I mean, some of these gigantic companies that are now involved with exhibitions and all that. What are your views on the competitive landscape?

Yeah.

I would say we are the largest Dental communications company from a from a media perspective in terms of Dental media. I think the competitive landscape, again, it’s a really interesting one, right? Because I think as you alluded to, we are general high street practice. We’re not that IT media and we do regional shows. And I think if you look through the market since Covid, there’s been a huge transition, right, including exhibitions. And I think you look across the board, not not just in Dental, but in all of these other, other sectors that the big large shows have all taken a massive hit, right, because of this end of funnel 3% ROI. And I remember when, you know, you would go to many early shows and yeah, in life and you must have spent some serious dough with these parties. And I think, you know, when you look at the way that the market is now and everyone’s focussed on that ROI and the funnel is you can’t drop a hundred K investment on a show for two days to speak to 300 people, because you’re not going to get that return. And I think we noticed that quite early on, and hence why we launched our regional model, that we’re not trying to be massive and 10,000 stans and the rest of it, we’re just trying to get people to to affluent and populated areas in the UK that don’t tend to travel. So I’m really excited about the future of the shows. I think they’re gaining really solid traction, and I think our content program for next year is looking incredible, which again now. So I’m really excited about that.

And then I think on the traditional publishing side, I think, you know, there’s some great, great magazines and there’s some great titles out there and they they do a phenomenal job. And I think we do really well with what we do. I genuinely don’t believe there’s anybody that can touch us from a digital perspective from Dental UK, our social reach, you know, our data and our investment in, in in that approach. So, you know, we’re constantly pushing the boundaries and obviously as we move into a cookieless future which which we all know has come in and, you know. If you look at the entry, we generate about 98,500 unique users, of which about 68,000 of them are logged into the site. So we know their details and we can track them. That’s going to become incredibly powerful when cookies are unavailable because you can’t pixel. And obviously what you’ve done, where you’re giving the money to Mark Zuckerberg. If you can’t pixel, you know, all of these things that you’re doing, you’re going to need an organisation that has that data, has that infrastructure, and we’ve been doing that for the last 4 or 5 years. And we have a data team that’s just constantly looking at that user journey and harnessing data and. You know. So I think it’s more about how people are preparing for the future. And, you know, I know how hard that journey has been over the last four years and the development and the infrastructure and the team and the investment that’s gone into developing that. You know, I wish anyone luck who’s going through that now because it’s not easy.

Yeah.

What’s the future of FMC? Craig, you alluded earlier to a situation that obviously you can’t talk too much about, but I’m sure we’ll be announced in the in the near future. You mentioned an upcoming acquisition. So what’s the plan moving forward? Is it is it acquiring complementary businesses to increase your footprint and exposure? Obviously to grow it. Where do you see FMC between now and the next five years? What’s the plan?

So I think, you know, as I said, I think media and now and awards and events and that side of the business is at the heart of what we do. And really diving into the education and and building solutions that allow individuals and practices to to really become better clinicians and, and better practices, whether that’s through education, whether that’s developing systems that can make their life easier through compliance or HR and or asset management, and really trying to build that infrastructure of products that can help practices perform better and taking our hassle. So I think, you know, I think there’s great product out there. I generally do, and I’m not just saying that for lip service, but I think that there’s a there’s definitely an opportunity for a slicker, easier interface and platform with content that can help a lot because I think a lot of the platforms that are out there at the moment and feedback from clinicians is that they’re great. They tick a box, but they’re quite clunky in their hearts and views. And so I think, you know, developing that side of the business and really having it led by dentists for dentists is going to be something that that will ultimately help the profession.

Okay. And so you talk about platform there and obviously having a better platform improving the platform and so on and so forth. But if you could just paint a picture in five years time, what would FMC be doing something fundamentally different through its acquisitions?

Yeah, I think.

It would really it would really break into the professional offering. So at the minute, if you ask people about FMC, they probably know us through the private industry awards, or they might know Dentrix or they know dentistry magazine. Yeah. And I think in five years time we’d be known for that, as well as offering market leading solutions for practices.

So you mean B2B as well as B2C?

Yes. Yeah. Well.

I mean.

As in as in.

As in dentists. Yeah.

As in.

Yeah, but but but so, so so the offering rather than FMC being predominantly a company that allows businesses that want to advertise to dental practices, also directly helping dental practices to improve their businesses as well. Correct. Yeah.

That’s you articulated that much better than I did.

Sometimes I just want to wrap my head around things in a really simple way. So just for my simple mind to understand. Um, so. Yeah, that’s that’s brilliant.

Before we move on to the final questions, before we move on, what would you say is your biggest mistake you’ve made in your working life, Craig?

It’s been a few. It’s definitely been a few things. A couple of.

Ping pong, ping pong games.

They do fun games.

And. Yeah, I think two biggest one one was being too obsessed. I think in two ways is, is is is panned out for me really well. But then it’s a big a big impact. You know, it has an impact on the family. Right. And I think you know we we touched on it just before I lost my brother in law 18 months ago, which is really impacted my, my, my family at home. And I think, you know, you. I would say big mistake is being too obsessed with with the end goal and the mission and not actually taking time back to to probably being a bit selfish. In all honesty, I’d say that’s a big mistake. And then the other one is is is getting going at things too quick. So making rash decisions. And, you know, we made a rash decision with launching the Cardiff Dentistry Show. Absolute shocker.

And.

Craig, have you have ever had the biggest? I always ask so asks this question. Then I try to dig into the detail. Right? So rather than a mistake we made as a collective, a mistake Craig made as an individual, and when you made that mistake, you had an oh shit moment. So like, like almost like you’ve just made a mistake, right? Whether you’ve jumped off a phone with a, with a supplier or a dentist or whatever, and then you think, fuck, I can’t believe I’ve just done that. Yeah. Any of those?

Yeah, yeah, definitely been one of them. Actually, I had a meeting today and I won’t I won’t name any names, but we had a, um, we had a leadership team meeting, um, last week, and we had, you know, the idea was to be really open and honest and understand as a business where, you know, to basically to align everyone to say, this is the journey, this is where, where we’re going and let’s get everything on the table. And a lot of, you know, I’m quite a simple character, and if there’s an issue, I’d like to raise it. And I raised an issue with an individual in a fairly direct way and didn’t really show too much empathy with with the way it was delivered. And I remember leaving the meeting and I knew that it had to be said because it was generally there to help. And I remember I left the meeting and I went back and I spoke to my wife and I said, I think I’ve really messed up there. And, um, so I called this individual on Thursday and in my head, I had this plan that I was going to apologise for the way that I delivered it. They explained why I said it and and in my head I was like, the conversation is going to go like that. It’s all going to go fine, man. It it should. And it went the complete opposite. We ended up having a huge argument, really unprofessional.

And, um, exactly what you said. I got off the phone and I thought, I’ve absolutely messed this up, but I’ve really, really let the team down there because they felt that I’d been untrustworthy and and betrayed them. And it was not my intention. And and I felt awful. Absolutely awful. And then a senior member of the team and I have a really important role. And I had a really important role with the awards on Friday. And then, you know, you know, that feeling when you go home and you just feel sick, you just like, you know, you’ve really messed up. And I felt sick and, and and we had a meeting today and I explained it and, and I tried to articulate it and I apologise and I haven’t and it’s all fine and it’s all settled. But I’d say in, in recent times that’s been the one that’s really, um, you know, as a mistake, I think, not rushing into things and dealing with everybody in the same way. Right. Everyone’s got different emotional levels. And the way that you approach people is, I can talk to someone in one way and be really direct, but in other ways I need to adapt the way I say it and still get the same outcome, but I need to be more sensitive to their situation. And yeah, so hopefully that answers the question.

It does, it does.

It’s lonely at the top, my buddy.

Um.

Let’s move on to the final questions. Prav. Let’s let’s start with mine. Let’s start with mine, because yours is more profound. Yeah? Yeah. Craig. Fantasy dinner party.

Yeah.

Three guests. Dead or alive. Who would you have?

Yet, so I’d have my brother in law out of the way. He’s, um. You know, he was a good way. And he was a fun, fun guy. But in all honesty, I want to understand. But not not to get too deep into it. But, you know, he he suffered with, with depression, which we wasn’t aware of. So I’d like to get into that because I know mental health is obviously a big thing within our profession, but, um, to try and understand what happened there and try and give those answers to my wife and, and then then make my life easier there and then on a more positive, uplifting guess, I’d say. Reed Hastings. So, so CEO, founder of Netflix. I think we spoke a lot about culture today, and obviously they released the book, Netflix culture and, you know, just fascinated in the way that he did. You know, it doesn’t have a number of holidays, doesn’t have a time machine. You know, he lets his team do what they want, when they want. They can take their voting, voting, you know, their holidays whenever they like. Just that mindset of how we develop that. And I think that’d be fascinating. Fascinating. Just really getting into into those details. Um, and then Elon Musk, you know, that that vision of, you know, like your reaction there is, you know, he’s crazy, but the vision that he’s got and how he sees things from such an early point on, before anyone who had thought of that, how does that work? And what is it that he sees and he believes? And is it is it a gut instinct that, you know, I just would love to understand that in more detail.

I like that. Prav Prav wouldn’t have much, much, much sympathy for the pick your own holidays. Prav I’m joking. Just a joke. It’s just a joke, buddy.

Lucky you.

You see, one thing I’ve noticed is your Prav has to be very careful with what he says on this pod. Yeah, because members of his team listen to this pod as they’re editing it and so forth.

But listen, mate.

I’m absolutely cool with it. Yeah.

Absolutely cool.

You’ve changed man.

There you go.

Craig. It’s your imagine. Yeah. So she last day on the planet and you’re surrounded by your loved ones, the kids, and you have to leave them with three pieces of life advice or wisdom? What would they be?

Oh three. So I’d say be authentic. You know, I think we probably all going through life when you’re with groups of people and you’re trying to make it and try and do things and saying things to impress and to to have an impact. But ultimately it’s not you. And and I think these people always get found out. So I always say to them, be authentic, be yourself. No. Trust what you believe in. And and everything will come good. Because, you know, I think people understand when when someone’s being authentic, like you can, you can see the bullshit life and it irritates me. So I think be authentic. I think the other thing is, I’d say cherish the moments. You know, I think we’re all in a world of of, you know, living in the fast pace and a fast pace and looking at the next goal. And where are we going to get to and how are we going to do this? But actually, you know, just just cherish the small things, you know, like having a cup of coffee in the morning with your wife and your kids in the garden, like just, you know, it’s simple, but just just enjoy the moments because you don’t know when they’re when they’re going to end and then you don’t know what’s around the corner. And, you know, we’ve obviously gone through tragic times the last few years with, with you know, Ken’s lost and my brother in law. And I think that really heightened the fact that, you know, just just enjoy the successes and enjoy the small things because, you know, what’s it all about, why you work so hard and you do all these things and but you know what? No one’s going to ever going to remember half of it. But your family will remember the the little holidays, the walks on the beach, the coffees in the morning. And so I’ll definitely need to start doing that more. And then lastly. I’d say.

Just work hard.

And then be consistent. You know, I think there’s there’s too many of this, this next generation coming through that, trying to get these get rich quick schemes. And, you know, they they see the success on social media and they don’t see the, the ten years of growth and just just work hard and be consistent. And I think even when you don’t want to get up and you don’t want to go to work, get up, go to work, try your hardest and then go home. And you do that every day. You’ll be all right. Don’t don’t cut corners. Don’t try and cheat. Just just be consistent and work really hard.

Incredible advice.

Thank you Craig.

And really, really the way you’ve lived your your career there Craig. Right. I’m so, so very proud of the three of you having dealt with you so over the years and and always enjoyed dealing with you. I’m so proud of what you guys have achieved. You know, it’s a wonderful thing and it’s a wonderful thing that you’re carrying on Ken’s sort of work. Really well done man.

Thank you Matt.

I think it’s really inspirational mate. And yeah, I think we need to I think we need to have episode two of that Curry, mate.

Yeah, definitely. We’ll have him.

Back in five years and see if any of the stuff he says comes true or not.

But that’d be gone and I’d enjoy that. But thanks. Thanks so much for having me on. I’ve really enjoyed it. It was, you know, good to actually go back and reflect on the things, because I think without the these platforms and talking about it, you actually forget about, you know, how things be working career. And it’s actually yeah, it’s been really enjoyable.

Amazing man. Thanks so much for doing this, buddy.

Thanks, Craig.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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British culture is very meme culture. Like, we always like to take the piss. Take the piss. Whereas if you go to America, it’s very opposite, right? It’s like, yo bro, you got this. And I think the problem is both aren’t great because you go to America and you’re told you’re going to be the best at something, and then at 30 years old, you haven’t made it. And it’s like, well, what happened to the American dream, right?

This is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. And today we have the incredible Henry Wade. So Henry is a very, very known content creator. I actually met Henry. I didn’t meet him. This is a funny story I became when I first split up with my first boyfriend, I went to fitness first. It was a bit of a rough gym in Clapham, and I used to see Henry and his twin working out there all the time. And interestingly, I looked at you both and I was like, you just had presence. I just felt like you both were going to do really well. I didn’t even know what you had done. And then serendipity has it. We actually ended up meeting later on in life through friends, etcetera. And I was like, you were the one that was working out of Fitness first, and I had seen his content online. Henry’s extremely hard working. He’s become very successful in what he does. And interestingly, he transitioned from having, you know, quite a sort of generic career, I’d say, and, you know, making it online and, you know, really taking a leap of faith against what his family believes. Because I know you come from family in Cambridge and, you know, saying, like, I’m going to make this work and I’m going to make a career out of content creation. And more recently, he has focussed on fitness as well. Fitness has been a massive part of his life, has been doing marathon running, documenting that as well, which we’re going to cover. So welcome Henry.

Thank you very much. That was a very nice intro, so I really appreciate it. I was like smiling. They’re like, oh, I haven’t had this kind of compliment in a long time. So I really appreciate it.

Well, you know, a lot of love for Henry. We’ve known each other for a while now. So, Henry, I want to start from the beginning, as I do with a lot of people. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. I know you grew up in Cambridge, but tell me about, like, where you come, your background a little bit.

Yeah. So for the record, I’m 31 years old now. He keeps saying that.

Like he’s old. I’m like, do you know how old I am? Okay. Go on.

And I’m initially from Cambridge, so I grew up there and I then moved. Well, sorry, I went to Cambridge. Been there since all the way to college, then went to university and then went travelling and then I moved to London. So yeah, I’ve been grew up and grew up in Cambridge with a family of four, and I’m an identical twin, and I’ve got an older brother and an older sister as well. And then there’s me, the youngest one with mum and dad. So yeah.

Amazing. And you worked in nightlife, didn’t you? So after, was it after or during university?

It was actually during. So when I was at uni, that was the first time I separated from my twin brother. I kind of got the chance to build my own identity a bit and went to university, went to Newcastle, had an amazing time. I be honest, I kind of chose university life because I didn’t really know what I wanted to do next in my career, so I just chose a standard business and marketing course and I kind of went because of the nightlife. I watched one episode of Geordie Shore and thought, this will be epic, like me and Gaz of Geordie Shore, like going to get on anyway. I started becoming a co-promoter because I thought, you know what? This is a great way to meet people, make friends and I then did quite well, became a junior manager and then because I sold so many tickets, I had so many people on my guest list and then I became a senior manager. So I started essentially running my own nights, and it only took me to like a few years ago to really realise how important that job was for me, because while everyone was getting placement years at university and going to like all these amazing companies, which I didn’t actually get, I tried to, but I couldn’t get them. And I actually realised, like the communication skills I learnt during this job, some of the best I’ve ever done in my entire life. Like I can talk to anybody now and it’s I think that’s a really powerful tool to have, and they’re the kind of skills I probably don’t think I’d have got, or having the confidence to go and speak to anyone is I probably won’t have got those skills. If I’d have gone to like a corporate company and kind of just worked and seen how their business runs.

And do you know, that’s interesting. I’m going to I’m going to interject there because I saw a post. So as you as I told you, like the majority of people that tune in with me in Payman are dentists and a lot of them have been confused because within dentistry there’s loads of courses, right? Because obviously clinical skills is like a big part of our career. So, you know, you learn how to do like crowns and veneers and bonding and Invisalign and all the stuff that you know about. But the one thing that they really lack is that communication skill that you said. And even though we go to university for like five, six years or longer, if you want to specialise, they still feel they can’t communicate with people you know, they still feel they can’t talk to patients. Why do you.

Think? When I was a kid, I used to be so scared to go to the dentist? It’s the very thing, isn’t it? Yeah. The dentist is the scary place to go. Like they’re not the nice people. They put their fingers in your mouth and it’s just like all these tools go in. Whereas I think that’s definitely changing now. I think you’re doing a great job in the industry of doing that. And other dentists as well. I know, and.

Your dentist, Henry didn’t choose me, that’s why.

Yeah, but yeah, a couple of you do great. And I think that’s amazing for the industry to kind of change that thing about it. But yeah, as you were saying, I think those communication skills are really, really important. But do you.

Think the communication skills were because you worked in nightlife, or do you think it was because you went to university? Do you see what I mean?

Think it’s a little bit of both. Like when I went to university. As I said before, it was the first time away from my twin and we were always together. So it was always like, oh, okay, I’ll turn up to the party or I’ll turn up to school with Will. And we always kind of had each other to bounce off of, whereas going to university, I had to really come out of my like, oh shit, I haven’t got a twin with me. Yeah, everyone’s going to know me as just Henry. I’ve kind of got to be this, who am I? Like, so I was like, all right, I’ve got to be the communicating and energetic and outgoing guy I think I am. And I was, and I became confident because I had to grow my own confidence and because I didn’t have will. So I was like turning up to university lectures on my own, making friends with those people and those university lectures, heading on nights out and meeting people on nights out. Actually going to university again is one as well, I think really makes you step out of your shell because you are stepping into an environment where there’s no one else you really know, none of your friends are really there, so you kind of just do it by yourself, and you are thrown into a situation where you have to make friends. And I think for everyone who goes to university, I think there’s so much topics right now and people talking about how you don’t need to go to university and you don’t have to be successful to go to university, but I think there’s so many benefits of still going in personal development and self growth. And I know a lot of people, not just myself, have gone to university and been like.

I’m massively pro it, I think, I think I’d be interested to see what you think. Like obviously for vocational degrees like dentistry, medicine, etcetera. Oh, 100%. You got to go. Yeah, totally. But a lot some people say they think it was a complete waste of time. But I think that the connections that you form and the experiences you had, there’s something in that 100%.

I think for me, I’ll be totally honest. I don’t think I learnt that much about business and marketing, like sitting in a room. I think with business you learn by doing, you generally do like I’ve done that through all my content creation. I’ve learnt by doing and if you don’t do it, you never know. So you’ve got to put yourself through the through the process and learn. And then so which is great. And I think that’s perfect. But um. Oh sorry. Where was I?

Perfect. The business and marketing. Yeah.

That’s right. I didn’t really feel I learnt so much from actually doing business and marketing the actual degree, but like I said, the meeting people, the job I did, that was the stuff I really learnt. And I wouldn’t ever say to anyone, not go to university. But yeah, if you want to go, go. But if you don’t, you don’t have to.

But I think as well, maybe it is a stop gap for people that don’t know what they want to do. Yeah, yeah, maybe it is a stop gap because maybe you need that time to go through like your growing pains or, you know, but also like university can equally it was pretty traumatic for me. Like I think being thrown into an environment like I’d never university for me was like a really weird experience because I’d, I’d grown in a multicultural society in central London in a day school. The halls that I was put in was very much like everyone was like from public school. I was like the only brown person. And I was very much, like, treated like in a certain way, like I had all friends, you know, I had a great social life, but it was a different experience. And there was, there was, there was like a kind of difficulty and like somewhat, but obviously that shaped me as a person as well. So I think, you know, there’s definitely like pros and cons to it. But yeah, what I want to know as well is you’re an identical twin. Yeah. Right. And I don’t know if you know, like as an I’m really interested either one of you about studies because being an identical twin is that difficult. And like in terms of like identity, you remember there was a documentary. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, either one of you where there was triplets. Yeah. That was amazing. I can’t remember.

Three identical strangers. Yeah, I haven’t.

Actually seen it, but I’ve heard it’s amazing.

It’s amazing.

So basically, the therapist keeps telling me to watch it. Yeah.

Yeah.

So so so so it’s really amazing because those three, those those triplets were separated at birth. It has a dark turn in the end because it was a social experiment by someone that kept doing these experiments. And when they got reunited, it was all great. And then there was a huge problem with like identity crisis, etcetera. Do you think that, like biologically there is something about being a twin, a triplet or whatever, you know, and how it affects who you are and who you believe you are? And like whether you have that sense of like being oneself.

Oh, that’s such a good question because no one will ever know unless they’re an identical twin. What it’s physically like to be an identical twin, right? Yeah. And growing up, Will and I always had this thing about us where we weren’t really known as Henry or Will. It was always the way twins. Oh, it’s the two twins. The two twins. And in school, if one of us did something right, or most, most of the time, if one of us did something wrong, then it always threw back on the other person. So if we all got told off in a class that teachers instantly going to categorise him as being naughty and they’re going to think I’m naughty as well, because we come in pairs, right? Yeah. Very normal. We pushed down the pram together. Oh, those two look so sweet. Do you know what I mean? It’s never like oh, one of you or whatever. And then, um, as I said earlier, the only time we really got to find ourselves as our own identity was when we went to university. But the funny thing is, by, yeah, we were building our own, building our own identity and becoming our becoming our self. What was funny was we still did the exact same thing. So he did a business course. We both began our first year working at Nando’s. So? So did he. So did I. And then we left Nando’s both. Club promoters both got promoted to junior manager. And then it was weird because those two companies, we became like top of those companies, both knew each other as well.

So it was like, oh, we tried to become ourselves, but then we kind of have our self identity, but we can’t forge back into it. And then when travelling together, we got home from travelling, went to London. We both had similar kind of jobs to begin with whilst we were becoming creators, and then we realised we’re probably better off together. I think the thing with being a twins is you’re very competitive and growing up like Will and I both wanted to always be the winning one, whether it be grades or 100 metre races or whatever. We did all sports and it would always be like, I want to beat Will, but I want him to come second by like five, just just a bit. But I don’t want him to beat me. And it was every race, every run, every football team. We wanted to get picked first, but over him will be the captain or whatever. But the older we got, we started to really compete and it made us get to who we were. Like we did really well in sports and achievements and academics. We weren’t so bad either. However, we realised instead of like keep battling and competing, collaborating with each other so much more beneficial. And that’s when we started to grow, like our Instagram and TikTok following by actually being together. Because don’t get me wrong, it’s cool being a white male in today’s industry. However, there are so many other tall white males doing what I do in fitness and fashion.

So what can make you really stand out from the crowd? For me, I’m very fortunate to have an identical twin, so and it’s great. And we are best friends. Like you’ve heard. I’ve heard horror stories of twins having like hating each other, whereas Will and I, we get on so, so well. We’ve. Yeah, don’t get me wrong, we bicker like 13 year old boys still, which is very family. But we’re definitely learning learning to navigate that a lot better. And I think that’s so important. I think we always will in our entire lives because, yeah, I never talk to Carmen. How I sometimes talk to Will, and it sometimes takes me to realise, like if he leaves something in the sink, I’ll go will clean it up. Whereas if Carmen did that, my girlfriend, I’d be like, I’ll just grab it and put it in the dishwasher. But because he’s my brother, I feel like I need to tell him. However, I’ve like now started to realise I look at that and go, is this worth picking a fight for? No it’s not. Pick it up, put it in the dishwasher. Like if I wouldn’t talk to him like that, my girlfriend like that, why should I talk to him like that? Just because he’s my brother, I shouldn’t. And. Yeah, so. But it’s it’s a head game because like I said, I’ve known him my entire life. I’ve been in the womb with him. Like we are so close. But can I ask you something?

Do you know if biologically there’s any studies to show, like whether, like, you can ever fully be, like, separate or separated? Like, is there any studies around twins? You might not know this I don’t.

Know, do you know? Well, I thought, you know, all this stuff about gut microbiome. Yeah. And the guy was saying that his his research interest was twins because twins end up getting different diseases. And his question was, why do twins get different diseases if they’re genetically the same? Environmentally very similar. I’ve got something for.

You there, like Will. My family has this, I don’t know.

One second. That was all right. Okay. Go ahead.

My brother has this really bad eye condition called keratoconus, I think. I think that’s right. Maybe I’ve pronounced it wrong. So if anyone on here knows that, please pronounce it correctly.

Keratitis.

Similar, but I’m not sure. But basically it basically means the his eyes, the pupils are shaped, I think like footballs instead of rugby balls or the other way around. I can’t remember which one it is. And the doctor is like the number one surgeon who tests who does his eyes for him, because we had to go privately, and because it was so he got so bad, he had to be jumped into hospital straight away and put under the knife and have it sorted. It got that bad and the doctor was like, we need to get you twin in here ASAP because he’s going to have something and it’s so funny that I don’t have it. And I still now get tested every 18 months and the doctor goes to me. I’m still have no idea why you don’t have it. And they’ve realised it’s in my system, but it hasn’t quite triggered. So Will’s will got it and it triggered, whereas I haven’t had it and it triggered and he’s still so shocked, which is so weird.

So so so this this researcher found the microbiome was very different in twins, so different bacteria. And so he was he was blaming, he was saying, well that’s where he could see that the effect of different bacteria on people. When you look at the effect of different bacteria on twins, because the one thing that’s very different in the measurements between twins is the bacteria that lives in their gut.

Yeah, maybe. I think there’s so many studies now coming up about gut and how it’s one of the main factors. Controlling everything, controlling everything. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s become only in the last real year. So it’ll be interesting to see.

Well, we’ve talked as well. You’ve had a lot of like stuff with your gut. You know, we kind of had that conversation and you know a lot around that with mental health, which I want to go into 100%. But before we actually delve into that. So I just want to know, how did you rise? I know you might think like, I don’t say this, but how did you rise to TikTok and Instagram fame? Oh so and like, how did you make that transition? Because a lot of people want to know that. They want to know how to, like, make a living out of just being a content.

So in America, the number one most wanted job now apparently is like a YouTuber, TikToker, Instagram like an influencer. People want to be kids.

Yeah.

For kids. Your kids too.

Not my kids, but kids in general.

Yeah, your kids are probably all right, I think. I think the thing is, people see this lavish life we all post about, like, you get the free products, you get paid to work with these amazing brands. Your life is sorted, like, almost like you get free dinners and you think it’s all glamorous. And don’t get me wrong, it can be at times, but there is a very stressful side to it that I think a lot of people don’t don’t show. But we’ll go. We’ll move on to that. But the question you initially asked was, how did I rise to stardom, essentially, as you said. So back in, oh, when I was travelling the world, because obviously TikTok came after Instagram. So this is our Instagram story. We were travelling Australia and we and all the world.

And you’re working in nightlife still then? No, no this.

Is we packed our bags came backpackers. And this was when Facebook was big. Instagram was kind of just coming up and it was like Twitter, everyone’s on Twitter promoting the news or whatever. And we basically got to Australia after doing Cambodia, Thailand, all the Southeast Asia countries. And honestly, we were just alcoholics, like all we did was drink booze, get pissed and not really see these countries for what they were. And we got to Australia and Will and I were in such bad physical shape, like we were weighty. And I was like, what the hell? I went for a run and almost puked. And I’ve never been this like this before. I’ve just been drinking for six months. I had one night off in like six months because all I was, all me and my mates were doing was getting pissing in Thailand or whatever. And don’t get me wrong, it was amazing. Still had the best time ever and I’ll never change that experience. But I got to Australia and Will and I, we suddenly went from being in the worst shape ever to being so obsessed with fitness and got into the best shape of our lives. We were so lean, like 4% body fat, like we were walking down the Aussie beach. These fitness trainers have been on the front of mental health for telling us we’re too lean, we need to put on some weight and we’re going, no, not lean enough, not lean enough.

I’m sure we all wanted the six pack of dreams, which you never we thought we didn’t have yet, but we did looking back and we were like, right, let’s start documenting some fitness and doing these, like twin workout things. And we had a page, the Weight Twins. Then we had our own personal Instagram as well, and we then left Australia and we started travelling back. And instead of seeing the world being like alcoholics again, we thought, let’s really like be normal. Like do it well, get up for sunrises, do yoga’s, do runs on the beach or whatever, and see this place with the real beauty it is, and you don’t always have to be pissed essentially on the on the booze. So we picked up a camera in Japan, picked up a little canon in Australia, and we started documenting our journey. Just like selfies, we didn’t have a clue how to use this equipment, and I was YouTubing how to use Lightroom and Photoshop and change colours and stuff, and I was making everything oversaturated, and we started documenting and and doing all these things. And it was, it was quite funny at the time was all our friends were commenting on our photos being like, lol, this is a joke. We started a website as well called the twins.com and where we wanted to write blogs on our travels and everyone was like I was getting emails.

I remember the first ever email I got through it was you’re a joke from a fake account being like, you’re never going to make it. This is the biggest laughing thing I’ve ever heard, and I’ll never. I wish I still had a screenshot of that, but obviously I was so embarrassed at the time. Like I was like, am I doing the wrong thing? And it makes you really question whether you’re doing the right thing. And but luckily I had willed Fall Back On. He was like, when he had a bad day, I was there to pick him up and go, no, don’t worry, just keep going, keep going. When I had a bad day, it was the opposite. He was the one picking me up, which was great. So we started documenting our journey and we got back to London, Cambridge, where we lived, and we had about maybe ten, ten, 11,000 followers by this time. And I remember we were ordering these clothes because we had cool wardrobes at home. We really wanted to get back into our main fashion and we were like taking photos on our back garden. And we were like, what are we doing? This is a waste of time. We need to be in London. And we ended up both moving to London and literally had about £2,000 in my bank. Not much money at all, and Will had probably less because he spent a lot more and we both lived in different areas in the most tiniest bedsits in the world.

I had a single bed and I was living with five other people with one bathroom, and I remember just having to bang on the door, please let me into the bathroom. We used to have to literally run outside, sometimes just to go to the bathroom, because I was so desperate because this, this girl next door would take so long and we were like, right, how can we really continue this Instagram and content creation we’re doing? And but we need to make a living, right? So we had to get a job part time. He worked for an events company, and I worked for a start up company with a drinks company, and we’re both working five days a week. And I was like, right, we still need to create content. So every day we would like essentially go for a meeting. And that meeting would be like, we would go for a meeting with some drinks brand or whatever, and I’ll go for a meeting with like Tesco’s CEO, one of my clients, and I really would just be sneaking my camera out and going to meet Will and shooting around London. And then also we’d do it in the evenings, we’d do it on the weekends all the time. And we were like, right? So we kept shooting content.

And whilst this was happening in the evenings, there was always events on H&M, Topman, All Saints or whatever these events and fashion brands would be. And we were like, right, we want to work with these brands, but how can we get put in the face of them? And we were networking with other creators at this time, finding out how London works and. What their experiences of, or if we wanted to collaborate with them and shoot content with them. And we’ll get sent all these events. But we weren’t invited to them. So we would just be like, should we just turn up and see what happens? Because what’s the worst that’s going to happen to us? We’re just going to get a no, and they’re going to just go, all right, screw it. We’ll go for a drink by ourselves. Whatever. Yeah. So we would turn up to these events and our analogy was who’s going to turn down two well-dressed six foot three lads, and every time nine out of ten will get in even without an invite, because we’ll just show them like the thing and all your name’s not on the list are. We’re so, so, so weird. Like, anyway, what we’ll do when we were in that room would not just go for the booze and go for the free nibbles, which 18 year old Henry would have done.

It was right. Who’s the PR marketing? Who’s the PR manager? Who’s the marketing manager and who’s the head of brand? And I want to meet that person in five minutes. Get their email, have a good chat with them, show them the content I do right there and then, and then schedule a meeting with them. Within two weeks, I’ll have a meeting with that person, whether it be coffee or a lunch, and then within like a week after that, I’ll have free clothes from them, and then after that I’ll put you have a job with them as well. I love that that was for me. Like I think now moving forward, I can put that what I did there into other areas of my life as well, and other businesses I do because it’s the same thing. It’s all like you initially start doing things for free. If you’re a dentist, you may want to do something free for your free for a client. Show them. Show someone what work you can do, how good these teeth are. And then someone sees that and they go, oh, I like that. I’ll then pay for it. It’s the same with any business. It’s the same kind of process. And then our following was going up and up and we started to get more followers. And then we got a few viral videos and then that kind of blew up.

And how did you know back then in Australia where you started filming that that’s what you want to do? I mean, because it wasn’t influencer land, wasn’t exactly what it is now. Yeah. Which year are we talking? Oh.

Wow. This must have been 25. So about seven years ago maybe.

Okay. So there was.

Something it was just started I think. Well, and I would say we’re phase 2 or 3. There was a phase one who were like.

That was that was your stated goal, you to become a big on these platforms?

It wasn’t necessarily a goal. It was more of a we wanted, didn’t want to be pretty boys just prancing our thing around because that’s quite easy to be done. But we wanted to offer value where we could because I think there’s a fine balance of offering value, but also showing off on content creation. And it’s okay to do both because a lot of people want that. Oh, I wish I had that live or oh, I wish I had that kind of moment. But then also if you offer value, it’s like, okay, that was that was a good piece of content. So Will and I were initially started when we’re in Australia was like, right. We saw everyone in the UK posing on the streets of London and show off fashion, and I was just and no one was English, no one had a personality. It was like I just saw all these people who were from Europe doing it in England, and I was like, well, why are they all doing it? There’s no English British lads doing this. Like and I think there was.

Probably a taboo though, because you said even like people were taking the piss out of you like, oh yeah, totally. Your friends.

Always do.

But but that’s the thing. But I think that’s a male thing, right. Because they see they see like that career or doing that stuff online as being very feminine I think. Do you know what I mean? As in like and then.

It’s just that I think it’s also like British culture is very meme culture. Like we always like to take the piss, take the piss. Whereas if you go to America, it’s very opposite, right? It’s like, yo bro, you got this. And I think the problem is both aren’t great because you go to America and you’re told you’re going to be the best at something, and then at 30 years old, you haven’t made it. And it’s like, well, what happened to the American dream? Right? So they need a bit of like downgrading, whereas we need a bit more of that boost because everything’s a meme. You get taken the piss out all the time, but the way Will and I stopped. That was just like we encouraged each other and we’re like, we know what we want. We had our goal, we had our view and we had our vision. And if you’ve got that, I think sometimes when people look at you and laugh, it is one of the best things that can happen to your career. It’s one of the best things that happen because you know you’re on the right path. It’s like that old saying.

In dentistry Rona’s managed it. Yeah, but but I come across hundreds of dentists and I asked him, do you have an Instagram? And they say, no.

Yeah, so do I. I’ve actually got a friend who’s a dentist right now. And I said, why don’t you set up your Instagram friend? Her name’s Hannah. She’s my girlfriend’s, one of my best friend’s girlfriend, best friend. And I’m like, I’m like, it’s like a hairdresser set up an Instagram account for hair.

But then the reason why often there’s a they don’t want to share their work, you know, because everyone’s very critical. The judgement, the judgement. Very true, very true. And and often it’s being uncomfortable in front of camera. So how did you get over these questions or did that not bother you at all? You were like, no.

Before Henry goes on with that, his story reminded me of mine in terms of like people say, how did you get on TV and the easy cop out way? As you know, people say she paid PR. I’m like, hun, I didn’t have PR back then. I went outside ITV studio and I stood outside that studio for about 5 or 6 hours until Zoe Williams came out. The doctor. Yeah, yeah. And she came out.

Telling me that story. I was like.

I had messaged her loads to meet me, and she took a chance and she met me for coffee and I said, I want to do this. And she was like, well, why do you want to do it in the same way that you just asked Henry? Why? Did you want to do the content? For me, it was the bigger vision. And I’m going to be completely honest. I wanted to leave a legacy. I wanted to leave a legacy within my field. I didn’t want to be in a life where I was like, I got up, I drilled a few teeth, I did a few small makeovers. Impact. And the fact is, no matter what anyone says, platforms such as social media, TV, radio, etcetera, they give you that platform to reach more people and therefore have a bigger impact. And I’m not talking just about a narcissistic way, but it’s just that value add that you just said to me, it’s giving value to people.

But it’s a particular flavour of impact. So I want to have impact. That’s why I started this company. Yeah, but it’s a particular flavour where you’re you are the product. And that’s what a lot of people suffer with, with you two don’t.

So what you said there about offering value is so difficult in the world I live in, I think because there are times where I’ll create a piece of content and I’ll sit there and I’ll go, I really like it, but where’s the value? There? And I’ll show a friend it or I’ll show you it and they’ll go, but it’s so entertaining. That’s the value. And I’m like, is it, is it like, yeah. And I’m like, is it like, should I not be doing. I go to the gym all the time. Five best ways to grow your chest as a male or something because there’s value there but may not be entertaining, but.

Education, education, entertainment but there’s different.

Value. Well, yeah, there you go. But I sometimes struggle to see that because I’m always I think we’re always critiques of our own work. And what you’re saying there about why not all dentists set up their, their accounts. Because we are the worst critique. Like, you have a spot on your chin. Who sees it? You. Does anyone else see it? No. Because we we worry about so much what other people think about us. And it’s it’s detrimental to our success.

But validation is a form of addiction. Right. And I’m going to go out there because everyone’s like, what’s your addiction, Raina? You don’t drink, you don’t take drugs, you don’t, you know, and I’ll tell you right now, I’m going to say to the world, my addiction is validation. So I do get a dopamine hit when I get approval online on something. You know, if a video does well, I’m like, that’s done. Well, great. I have a great day. Comments. You look good. This is I love this. Your work looks great right? Because that is mine.

I thought you.

Didn’t like it when someone said you looked good because I’m not Trustpilot or something.

Now, I said you don’t need to leave. Oh, here we go, here we go. I said, you don’t need to.

Ever since I heard you say that, I don’t tell you if you look good anymore.

So he basically I said to him, no, I said, when people give you well, this is the thing, right? Because on the one hand, and I’m sure Henry can relate to me right on the one. Like I’m saying, you know, when people give negative views, I’m like, I don’t need your opinion. I’m not. What’s the one for the travel agents, the reviews. You know, I’m talking about travel.

Tripadvisor.

Tripadvisor. I’m not TripAdvisor. I didn’t ask you for a review. Just you. I mean. Yeah, but that would be like, you know, if you get some kind of review, someone would be like, you look much better with brown hair. Like, oh, I don’t like your copper hair. Do you know? I mean, of course it’s an opinion. But then, like, at the same time, if people are like, you look great, it validates the decision I’ve made.

We love that. That’s why. Why do we go out? Why do we get a new haircut? Why do we? Why do we go to do our teeth? Why do we dress up? Well.

I thought you didn’t want it in either direction.

Shower me. Show me the compliments.

Look. Great. What was.

What was interesting? What you said there about validation. You want validation is something that I’ve realised about myself is wanting. Wanting to impress. So when I was a kid growing up, I was. Will and I were always in trouble. We were the naughty kids at school and we always wanted to impress our mom and dad every time something bad happened. So give you an example when I was, and I’ve got these childhood memories in me distilled and it’s probably who I who I’ve why they’ve shaped me, who I am today. Because I remember being told by our like when I was in year two or year three, my teacher head teacher said, you are you don’t know the difference between right and wrong. And she told that to my parents in front of me. And she said, my mum and dad were distraught, not knowing as a kid I didn’t know the difference between right or wrong, whatever came to year six. And the woman told my mum and dad, I’m so sorry about making that comment. Your two boys are the politest I’ve ever met and things like that. And so we changed her perspective. But we always. So we always, always wanted to impress. So growing up, I’ve always wanted to impress. So when I run a marathon, I want to get a good time because I want to impress people watching me.

When the content I create, I want to get loads of likes. I want people to be impressed. So now my growing up, I was wanting to press my mum and dad. I was predicted E’s and F’s in GCSEs. I got a B’s and C’s and that for me was like I told you Mum and Dad. I knew I was going to get those F’s predicted. So there’s my proof. I’ve impressed them by doing that. Got into a great university, impressed them by doing that, got a good degree, impressed them by doing that, got set myself up a business and doing what I do in London, and managed to bring my mum down to do a fragrance profiling with some of the best high end profiles where she gets to pick out a £200 bottle. So I’m going to buy for her. That for me is impressing my family. And so now instead of impressing my family all the time, I feel I need to do it to my followers to impress them with good content. Or. And that’s similar to the validation thing. And it’s not a bad thing. It’s just I want to impress how? And I do it for me instead of do it for others. Sometimes it can be okay to do well.

Carrying on from that. Now let’s have let’s be real, right? There’s a dark side to social media, and you have your career right now is very much with your face, your body, you know, at the forefront. Has your mental health taken a turn since you have exposed yourself on social media, or do you ever worry about certain things being online?

I think it’s such a good question because as I said earlier to you guys, people, this is the number one job people want to do in their like now as kids, they look up to social media influencers more than they look up to actors and celebrities they look up to. They look up to influencers because we see so much of their life. But what you don’t see is always the bad parts or the. And a lot of people are doing it better now. A lot more people are showing you the struggles they do have in this industry, because there are so many like I have been, social media doesn’t sleep like sometimes as a dentist or as a corporate person. You can close the laptop at 5:00. That’s it’s another day tomorrow, right? Social media is 24 hours like it does not sleep seven days a week, 365 days a year. And I am trying to put out content. And if I don’t put out for six seven days, I’m forgotten about, like I guaranteed. Like if your favourite influencer deleted their account tomorrow, you may for a second go, oh that sucks, but you’ll find another one within three three days or two minutes. It’s just like, and I hate this. Like Kobe Bryant, one of the best basketball players in the world. Unfortunately, he died. But there will be other best players in the world. There were basketball still live on. It’s the same as me as my job. It will still live on if I don’t create content.

But I need to keep creating because that’s my job and my work. And if I stop, then I’m not going to be at the money or anything. So it’s like all the all grow my brand and it can keep you up at night. There’s new platforms coming, there’s new kids popping off. Your content you created the other day doesn’t get as many views. The algorithm isn’t working in your favour or something or some something out there isn’t working to your favour. And then you start questioning going am I? Do people not like me? Is my content not good? Is Instagram just hating me or is TikTok hating me? And then you start seeing other people do something and you’re like, oh, maybe I should follow that content. Should I start doing that now? And it’s like, no, stick in your lane. And it’s so hard because you see other people’s success and you want to get a bit of that success. So you may start dabbling into that type of content. But I think it’s really important to stick in your lane and keep authentic. Keep authentic. But oh, can you be authentic on Instagram now because so and these creating platforms because you’re selling yourself to an algorithm. Like sometimes you want to create the content you want to create because because in that moment you’re like I really enjoyed creating that. And that’s authentic. But then when you but then it doesn’t perform well, you go, oh, that must be the algorithm.

I think thinking dentistry there is like that risk of that. Right. And we see it as well. Like there’s a lot of disgruntlement because there’ll be like the dentists that are sort of like a little bit more on the geeky side, the academic side. And they like the content that’s like really like, like the tooth zoomed in like a million and then like, oh, let’s talk about this. And then they hate on the Instagram dentist like me that do better because their content is a little bit more clickbait or it’s just a small makeover. But I understand my audience. I’m not there to impress dentists. I’m there to impress patients. I’m there to get a following of people like they want to engage, because also I’m going to lose a big part of my audience and some patients that come to me, they don’t feel afraid to cry to me in the chair or like, hold my hand or something. And the reason why they don’t feel that is because they see the like type of authenticity that I put out on social media, so they don’t feel embarrassed. Do you know what I mean? But your personality as well?

Totally. So when I see you on Instagram, I don’t just see teeth, I see Rhona’s personality. And that’s when I meet you in person as well. I see that personality because it’s exactly what you are.

I feel like you’re massively needy for for professional validation.

Oh, totally. But I’m not because you.

Don’t want to be known as only Instagram. Good at Instagram.

Just like Henry said. What I resonate was is that like the teacher said, he was going to get E’s and F’s. Dentists thought I didn’t have any clinical skills, so I upped my clinical skills. I made them better. I’m pretty good now. Do you know what I mean? Now you have.

An entire dentistry and have people dentists working for you. That’s how good you are. Yeah, but the thing is.

Is that I still have. But there’s still those other people that are like, I’m looking at like the one fifth of this, like, angulation of the enamel or whatever, but I, I’m, that.

Means nothing to me, by.

The way. You know, like what.

What is that English.

But the point is, I know that my work is good because patients as well can now tell the difference between a good before and after. I don’t think before they really could. But now people are like, I like you because you put translucence in your teeth. They understand things a bit better. Do you see what I mean? And I think that of course, like Payman asked me earlier. Right. Because as you know, I’ve released my own course. Yeah. Interestingly enough, the majority of people that bought the course was on the first day I released it. 95% were young females that had been on the courses of loads of famous dentists. Why did they choose me as an. You’ll know them. I’m not going to say why. I said, well, why did you go? Why do you want to do my course? Because they also feel that there is not a strong female leader within the field, and they feel that I’m more personable when it comes to stuff, because as part of my course, I have like, you can do like one on one and contact me on WhatsApp and send me and they like that. So the interesting thing is with the cohort, because he said to me, are you getting criticism for your course? And I’m like, of course I’m going to get criticism, but I don’t care.

I don’t think you’re doing anything right if you aren’t getting criticism.

Yeah, no, 100%.

You can’t please everyone. Like even content I do like 50% may like it, 50% may not. And that’s okay. Like you can have things you can’t be. You can’t have everyone like everything you do. So I think the great thing.

About content is it finds its own audience in a way. Very true. Yeah. I mean, when you said mental health as you remember, it wasn’t really my subject. He was.

A bit like, why.

It’s not my subject. So I know it was your subject.

Do you suffer from it? Do you ever suffer from anxiety? No, I.

Realise I do now.

He does now he does. Before this I me damaged goods babes on this before.

But then. But then. But then because. Because I had the experience with the previous pod that, you know, we weren’t trying to do anything. We were just having some conversations. And those conversations found audience.

That’s so true.

And this pod will find audience. And then what you do find and people who are not into it will stop following you. Okay, so here’s the thing.

This is the one way I always bring it back to you. Right? And why I think people like us probably will be successful in life is because there is still a cult out there who believes the world is flat. And if they can build a following, even though it’s scientifically proven that the world isn’t flat and they can build a following and a cult around it.

That’s a nice way of saying.

Someone will buy your product or will follow you like it’s so so facts like yeah, so.

But so those because I think like one of the important thing is like you took that leap of faith, Henry. And I think, like even so many young dentists, as he said, are so afraid to start content production. But I always say start with something. Even if you get two likes, don’t worry about it. Just do it. You know what I mean? So what advice would you give for people that want to start a similar journey? Because this could be within any field, right? Because you could be. There are doctors, by the way, Dr. Ali is her name. His name is he’s the one. He’s the one. He’s huge. He gave up medicine and he didn’t.

Yeah. My friend was on his podcast the other day. He said.

Listen, do you know about him?

He’s done great.

So he’s done amazing.

I watched a video on him this morning.

So he has a YouTube academy. He gave up medicine. He did a video. He’s brilliant.

He’s brilliant.

And he did a video on how much he made. Like it was like £50 doing his NHS work and how much he was making on like on, like on that. And I’m not saying not everyone’s money driven. Right. So it shouldn’t be about that. But he had a very transparent video about like this is what I do. This is how much I make. This is why I do it. But for those that want to start that sort of journey and question number one is what would you say is the most important thing to start? How do you start it? Second question is, do you have to have a certain amount of mental resilience to do it?

Okay. Number one, I would definitely say be okay with being shit. And what I mean by that is you have to start off being shit because your first 100 posts will be shit like your first 200 maybe shit and you may got any like get no likes, but you have to be consistent. Like you may not be successful by being consistent, but there is a 100% fact and chance you won’t be successful if you’re not consistent, right? Which is so true. So you may have the risk of not being successful if you if you don’t try it, but you’re never going to know if you aren’t. So you just got to make sure you keep going. And my dad says this saying all the time, and we did it when I had exams. If you throw enough shit at the blanket, eventually some of it’s going to stick and some of it will. So you’ve got to keep going and then you learn from it. Every post you do, every podcast you do, you learn a little bit more about it. And it may take you a thousand podcasts before you suddenly get that curve of success and it goes up. Right. But then if you if you quit it, 999, you’d have never known. And it’s like that hole that, you know, that photo, someone digging for the gold. And then he stops at the very end when he would have been there. So yeah, I think consistency is 100% key. Like be consistency, always be consistent. And what.

About mental resilience do you think you.

Get? I think you definitely need it because you’re going to get no likes at the beginning. You’re going to get no listens on your podcast. You’re going to get no views on your YouTube channel. And then you’re saying to yourself, oh, I’m putting all this work in, I’m doing all these camera angles, I’m doing this and I’m getting nothing back from it. And you have to have that resilience to keep pushing on. It’s in it’s almost self-belief, like if you don’t have that self belief in yourself, then how are you going to push forward and convince the world that they should watch your stuff? And if you have that self belief, then you’ve just got to keep going and going and going. And I think that will that will push you on.

So. So now you’ve got this audience that’s engaged with you. What are the steps to monetising that.

And okay, so there’s a lot of ways you can monetise on social media. And it depends what. Of Omicron. So number one is brand deals. So it’s good to do your. The content you do should align with the brands you want to work with. So for example I’m massive into my health and fitness. I’m never going to go work with McDonald’s because unless they unless they wanted me to promote some sort of healthy, healthy thing, then maybe that’ll be right. However, 90% of the time I’m never.

Salads have more calories than the burgers. Just saying.

There you go. Yeah, maybe they do, but I’m not going to listen. I’m not going to hold a burger and be like the new Quarter Pounder, even if they pay ten grand, because it’s probably not really worth it. Maybe it is to some people, but everyone’s got their price now, so you’ve got to align yourself with those certain brands. I think you can also get paid from, like Rona is doing courses. It’s a great way. And then you can set up other things like plans. You’ve got a website you can set up, fitness brand. If you’re a fitness fitness courses, you’re in fashion. You can set up your own clothing brand. Yeah. These endorsement product endorsement. Yeah. So do you have.

Someone who represents you?

I have a manager. And that manager kind of deals with all my logistics and deals with all the brands I work with, and can also get me brand work as well. And they’ve been great. They’re lovely people and I’ve been with them for 3 or 4 years. And yeah, so me and my twin are the same manager, and then there’s different ways of making money on different platforms like TikTok actually have a marketplace where and a creator thing where if your video blows up, you can get some money. It’s very small, but YouTube’s even better. Youtube has a platform where if you create for that brand that that you can get thousands of pounds if your video goes off because the YouTube algorithm is great, like your videos, can you remake money? So your video, if you make a video five way five, if you go on Veganuary, it’s always big Veganuary right? If you make a video. Five recipes for making Veganuary, which are cheap. Let’s say that that video will be big from January and you made it so 2019. But also if it’s gone well in the algorithm, it will pick back up the next year because people will be researching again. Veganuary recipes oh 2020 2021 so that video could kill it as seven years later. So yeah, so there’s a lot of ways to make to monetise monetise it.

Yeah. I’m going to ask you something. I like to be controversial. Right. Oh here we go. So you were talking about platforms right. And platforms that control the livelihood as you know. Like what’s your view on censorship. Right. Because also you think about a case like with the recent news of like Russell Brand at the moment with what’s going on and the allegations YouTube have pulled him. Right. They’ve actually stopped and YouTube was his biggest source of income. Okay. So he’s now saying because Rumble’s the new platform where they don’t allow any censorship, right? Yeah. Do you believe so? First of all, do you ever get scared? I mean, you’re not obviously. Henry, I know you you know, you’re not a controversial slash immoral person or whatever. Do you do you ever get worried that you’re going to get cancelled online or not? Really. And secondly, do you believe that censorship is a good thing or not.

To censor yourself when you’re talking? Yeah.

Do you feel like, oh, I’m going to actually like I’m not going to.

Say say that.

Say that. Yeah.

Listen, I think the world we’re in now, if you are so straight line and boring, your content isn’t ever going to get, you’ve got to be left or right polarising. You have to be like, look at Piers Morgan, but you’ve got to be very careful about what you say, because if you aren’t educated in that topic enough and you say something which is one thing or the other, then it’s more likely you’re going to get cancelled. Like the reason why James Smith does it so well and Piers Morgan does it so well is because they are so good with words and they’re educated on the topics they talk about, so they’re less likely to get cancelled. Whereas if it was someone like me and let’s take an example, it’s the politics and you vote Labour over conservative or vice versa. And you document, oh, I voted conservative because of this, but do I really know that much about politics? No. But if I made my opinion about it that I’ve voted on conservative, then people are probably going to go, well, you’re right, you’ve clearly uneducated. And that’s the thing I only ever would be talking commenting on or something if I’m well educated on the topic. It’s the same with all the I can’t remember what it was. Now, somewhere in one of these Middle East countries where the woman couldn’t women couldn’t wear their masks.

No, no, no, they couldn’t wear the burqa or something like that.

I remember what it was, but these women couldn’t wear their hair. And people, if I were to make because people were DMing me going, why aren’t you why aren’t you commenting on this? And I’m going, it’s got nothing to do with me because I don’t know this industry. I don’t know it until I’ve done my education on it, and I now know to talk about it, then I’m okay to make a comment, whether it be this or this, but people on their podcasts and I watch it all the time, or on their Instagram stories or whatever, they’ll make a comment about something and I’m like, bro, just don’t even and I stay out of it.

I got trolled about something like this. This is really interesting. So this is the little insight because you were like, what were you getting trolled about? I get asked quite a lot to go on national television to make comments about like the NHS crisis. I worked on the NHS for ten years. Okay, so I did my I paid my dues. Like I said, I worked really hard. I left in 2020 for like health reasons. Up to 2021 I was doing NHS work. Yeah. Now people. So basically there’s like a meme account. On Instagram, which does really well. It’s a Dental medium account run by young boys. Young Dental boys. And basically they said that they were sort of the opposite of what you were saying. They were saying like, are you not like, doesn’t it infuriate you so much that these private dentists that don’t realise the shitstorm of what’s going on are going on TV and commenting on what’s going on, right? I got sent it by a few people because they were like, I think this is targeted at you. And I was like, listen, I don’t care, because at the end of the day, if they want to go out and speak about it, go out. There is freedom of speech. If you want to talk about it on your social media, do. Why do news channels approach me? Because I’m vocal about stuff. Because I’m the one that’s out there saying I left because I was depressed and suicidal working on the NHS and I can. I stood up to Jeremy Kyle, who was basically saying, dentists are greedy and that’s why they leave the NHS. I’m putting myself in that position. How does he know.

He doesn’t work in?

Exactly. But the thing is, is that after that interview he was like, I can see your point now. I found it really weird because I was like, they can say all they want and they control and whatever, but what they were saying is the opposite to you. They were saying, because I’m not in it. Whereas, you know, the people that are saying to you, you can’t win, you know, I mean, because they’re saying, why aren’t you commenting? You know, so.

There’s no the thing is, no matter what you do in this world, there’s going to be controversy. Like this girl the other day actually posted a photo in her lingerie in a public street, street. And it was a I my first initial thoughts were it’s a sick photo. Yeah. Whereas the comments under it were had to unfollow because of this, this, this. And I’m like, what is wrong with the world? Like and my older brother is actually a teacher, and the things he has to now do about child safety and security is so different to what we had in our lives back in school, where the teacher could probably hit us still and it would be okay, but now it’s just it’s all so different and it’s like you do one thing wrong in any industry or make one comment about something and you’re more likely to be cancelled.

I saw I saw a thing. It was it was like a picture of Kate Moss in the 90s with Calvin Klein next to her. They were taking a photo in his hand. Was like on her, on.

Her, on her arse or.

Something just above her arse. Yeah. And the comments that came in, who’s the creepy guy with the octopus hands? Yeah. Octopus. Calvin Klein, a gay guy. Yeah. Number one, Calvin Klein. Yeah, he probably designed that very dress. And his hands have been all over, like, to fix that thing, and and, you know, the the notion that, you know, maybe the person watching it was offended or had had some, maybe something had happened to that person.

Okay, here’s another thing.

Could have happened. Yeah. Someone someone might have put their hand inappropriately on on that person. That doesn’t mean that was going on in that photo. But like.

It’s just that pictures tell a thousand words, right? Everyone’s got their own opinion about it. But. So here’s another one. When I went to Dubai during the pandemic and right now people are watching, going, oh, you went to Dubai during the pandemic. But the facts are I went when it was okay to go, but I started posting photos when I was out there when we went back into lockdown. So I left on like, I don’t know, 23rd or 26th or seventh thing from Cambridge, which essentially was like a tier two level, whatever it was, which was legal for me to fly. And because I booked this months ago, by the way, and it was I made that vocal booked Dubai back in November and I made it on my social media, booked Dubai buzzing to get out there for Christmas New Year. And so it was legal to me. Book. We had no lockdown, we’re all okay. And then Boris suddenly announced bam this day, certain tiers, certain people. Yeah, long time ago. So I went to Dubai, but again, it was fine. I was flying from Cambridge, I was allowed to leave, so on and so on and got to the airport, got to Dubai.

Fine. And then I started posting content. Me on a beach. Nothing like drinking booze, partying, which a lot of the some influencers were. It was just again, clean content, show my outfits, whatever. And I got the biggest backlash on my on my photos being like, how dare you escape the country? All this, all this. And I was like, I, have you been following me for a long time? You’d have seen that on my post. Like I booked this months ago and I left legally like so. I’ve done nothing wrong. Like I wasn’t the one jumping out of my bed and doing it on January 3rd and sneak into Dubai and suddenly appearing on a beach. I booked this months ago, so. And then people were commenting on it and going, oh, you should be ashamed for yourself. You raised all that money to climb Everest. I did a charity challenge and and now you’re and your mum’s going to work. My mum was like, the boys did nothing wrong and my mum was actually in the NHS. I wouldn’t have done that to her. Raised all this money for charity, sent it to the NHS and then buggered off to Dubai just for a holiday.

The thing that you said about the NHS, dentistry and people saying who is this private dentist to talk about? I mean I did, I did one year of NHS dentistry and vet, then went to private, then stopped being a dentist. Now I manufacture teeth whitening products so doesn’t mean.

You can’t ever comment.

Being a dentist. I want to talk about the NHS. Yeah. If I want to talk about the NHS, I’m allowed to comment about the NHS, even though I’m not working in that system. Yeah. And maybe they’re saying why did ITV ask her and not one of us. Well ITV asked her because of everything we just said. Yeah. All the 15 years work.

You’ve put I think, I think like, you know, people don’t realise that the nuances of situation but also like in terms of like so there’s two, there’s two different things. Also I want to cover with the content creation before we move on. There is I’m not going to say her name because she blocked me. Say her name. No no no.

Who’s this? Say her.

Name.

We’ll cut it out. We’ll cut it. I really want to know who’s blocked it out.

We’ll cut it out.

I’ll tell you afterwards. Okay. There was content. You’ll definitely know by a certain female. She’s doing a brilliant job. Just listen. Listen. Just listen. Sorry, sorry. She’s very beautiful. She’s very articulate. And she claims to be a psychologist. Okay. Initially, I was like, fantastic content. You. I love it when I see strong, empowered women doing this. She then got called out. She went on Chris Williamson’s podcast. Ah, okay.

Is it okay? I think I know who it is with Chris Williamson podcast.

And someone called it out because there were certain things she was saying and I was like, she’s not a psychologist. And her response to other people was like, medical professionals don’t respond in this way. You just know, pay. Like, you know, the way that we have to respond to stuff. So I did my own little research, found some TikToks. She’s a psychology teacher now. She has gone on some of the most famous psychology teachers.

A psychologist, no.

But clinical psychologist is what she’s kind of like, portraying herself as.

Doctor.

Like psychiatrist. No, no.

It’s the woman I’m thinking of. I’m sure her. I won’t say her name, but I’m sure her title is doctor.

Yeah, or something like that. Listen, listen, listen. So she’s basically misleading, but it’s incredible because she’s been on Lewis Howell’s podcast. Yeah. I think even Joe Rogan like interviewed her like there’s been loads. And the thing is no one has done their due diligence and there’s only a few people calling her out. I called her out in a really nice way. I dropped her a DM and I was like, hey, love your content. And I was like, but you’re not a psychologist. And I think it could be quite misleading to the public. You know, as you said that she said she blocked me direct. Yeah. She direct.

Messaging.

She blocked me. But the point is, without replying, without replying me saying you’re not a dentist, I’d be like, actually, here I am and this is my credentials. Shivani was obviously like, of course she’s going to block you. Like it’s like saying you’re a fraud, you know what I mean? And I was like, okay, but I didn’t mean it. I didn’t mean it like that.

How block happy are you? Oh I’m.

Sorry. Block happy now? I blocked so many times.

I don’t block at all. Do you know what I block? I do, you know, I always say I block a lot.

Block, block, block.

My way to deal with things is killing with kindness. And the reason why I do that is because this girl. Yesterday I put on my story. It was hilarious. She actually DM’d my girlfriend because I don’t really tag my girlfriend much and. But I do sometimes just tag her and people can find that by tagging my girlfriend’s private. Anyway, she got a DM saying hey lovely, I don’t you don’t know me, but I follow your boyfriend’s page. And just to let you know, I think you should be concerned that I think he sways both swings both ways as it like gay and yeah, and I put it on my story and she sent it to me. And I could not stop laughing at this because it was hilarious. But she. The thing is, I could have messaged this girl back because I’ve got her Instagram handle now being like, how dare you? Whatever. But something seriously troubled with those people who have to give you hate because they’ve taken the time out of their day. We have 24 hours a day and.

But you could say that about the psychologist. But I wasn’t giving hate. I was more concerned.

No, yours is very different. Your messaging out of. Yeah, a concerning way. This is something way worse. Like someone, someone going out of your way to hate someone is a complete like something’s troubled with that person. 100% truly troubled of that person. 100% truly troubled. So when you always get on TikTok, you’ll see you probably get it as well on your Instagram, it’s it’s fake accounts commenting on your stuff. 1234512 lol. It’s the emails I got from those people when I first started my website going you’re a joke mate. This is the biggest laughing stock. Those people have troubles and there’s one kid from university, his name is Gus and I’m going to say it out right now actively.

Then respond and be kind.

Be yeah, yeah yeah. So this one Kick-Off Gus from University I went to University of. Never spoke to him, but I’d always see him on shake his hand on nights out. He or he was no one at university, but he was just friends with these two guys and these two Joe and this guy Gus. If they listen to this, I hope they do. They will. They always, they always, always, always would comment on me and I would just comment back lol haha. Or hope you’re well mate. Or one of them was. Once I was, I was blessed are your well skinny or something like that and lol this is the biggest joke he. Whatever and I’ll be like, thanks mate. Appreciate your support. Always killing with kindness. And I got it for like two years straight and I haven’t for a while now. But it’s like, you know what? I love that because they’re taking time out of their day to message me out of their precious day. What are they probably doing? Nothing. They’re not trying to achieve any goals. They’re just doing their life and board. So they think they’re better off blasting someone else and hating on someone else. Never hate on someone. Success. And the one thing I would say anyone above you if you’re hating on someone, they’re above you. You never hate on someone below you. There’s no point. You never hate on someone below you. You always hate on. So you always know if you’re being hated. You’re above.

That person. In dentistry, it happens so much and it’s so sad. And I’ve tried so hard. Have you?

Have you never not hated? Hate is a big word. Have you never thought that something someone said needed calling out in dentistry?

As in like the things they say to me or the things they say to me?

They say they’re saying to the public that they’re saying to their audience, you know, we’ve had a few things in dentistry recently, like the the twins. Um, maybe you’re not. You don’t follow them.

Yeah, exactly. See, I stay so far away.

But you know what I mean.

What was the twins tell me.

There are, there are there are things people say that you might think I think that’s wrong or I think that’s, I don’t know, self promoting or. I think that’s totally so. So do you know why has there not been in dentistry a time where.

You wanted listen, listen, listen. And Henry will be the same. Of course you’re going to see people online. I get I mean.

In your industry. Yeah.

But listen.

But nutrition and stuff. But listen.

But the thing is like, okay, for example, the reason why the psychology thing triggered me is because I genuinely believe if you’re going to give medical advice you need, like you said, people should comment things that they’re on an expert. There is nothing wrong with being a psychology teacher. Just say you’re a teacher. Do you see what I mean? But misleading people and people that are going to look up to you. So I do have a problem with people like saying that. However, maybe I shouldn’t have, but I was like like for me, like psychology and psychiatry and psychotherapy is so important. Okay. Well, what about fitness?

Do you have to be a PT to essentially give personal trainer advice? But I know so many people in unreal shape. But the thing.

Is, it’s like but it’s also about transparency. It’s about like, I have a lot of experience. I’m giving you advice based on my experience. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. So I think that like it’s just the, you know, but you’re not going to lie about being a PT no. Do you know what I mean?

I, I actually went and got my license just because I sometimes couldn’t be bothered. Well, sometimes I get people commenting to me being like, you’re not even a PT bro. And then you’re.

Like, actually I am.

Well, actually, now I actually do have the level three qualification and I’m trained to do this if I wanted to. So you know what? I can talk about it even though that course isn’t great. Like it’s like going back to school and learning. You don’t learn much, but it’s just like you got it and it’s a credential. And if you do want to talk about it, you can. And if I want to release my plans, how about.

Same question to you. Have you ever thought someone in your industry needed your hate? Yeah.

But listen, listen a Payman I’m not done with that. I’m not done with that because it was going to lead on. Right. It was going to lead on. You see something you don’t like or someone online, you unfollow and you move on. Yeah, that’s my philosophy. So you don’t like the content. Why should I call out if someone doesn’t like Henry? I don’t like these fashion stuff I don’t like. I don’t like the fact that you’re talking about running and you’re not doing a million marathons. I don’t like the fact that you’re giving this advice and you don’t work completely in fitness. Just unfollow. Henry. Yeah.

Don’t follow me. So true. Why? Why do people want to hate so much? It’s. I just don’t get it. Like. Well.

There are nuances to that as well. Well.

Here’s what I did. And it made me really realise this when I was probably 13. I remember, um, Twitter was huge and X factor was on and I used to go onto my Twitter and I would slate the contestants. I’d be like, you have the world’s worst voice at Frankie Cocozza. And I only realised, but no, listen, this is 13 year old immature ten year old.

Trying to get something.

Yeah, trying to get something back. You never know. But I didn’t realise how badly this can affect people’s mental health until it started happening to me. So. Yeah. So as a kid I was like slating these famous people. If they’d had a rubbish football game, I’d comment, look, you guys have a football match. Everyone swears at the players, right? Because they don’t get it and you’ll see tweets. And if someone’s missed a missed a penalty or whatever in your club’s missed it, you’ll get hate from so many seeing so much hate. So think about how much that impacts that player. Like we all have the same minds and brains and we all are so similar. Really. Like it’s going to affect you like and people are probably told by their managers people stay off social, stay off Twitter. But sometimes you’re just on it and it’s natural that you may read that comment about you or something and you’re like, ah, it’s always the one bad thing, the one bad comment that stays in you as well. It’s not the good ones. Yeah, you could get your amazing tonight, mate. Well done. Or you were great at singing tonight or you played really well, but that one bad one can’t believe you missed that penalty.

You’re dead to our team. It’s going to stay with you for so long and it’s so traumatic. It’s the same in social media as it taught me. Massively. Like, if you’re not going to say something nice, don’t even bother saying it at all. And it’s so simple to say and it’s harder for people to do, especially at young kids. And. Stuff like that. And you do get that hate on TikTok all the time because it’s such a Gen Z platform and you get hate all the time, but you just got to for me, now is like, kill them with kindness and just whatever and whatever. Like they’re not my friends. I’m not worried about them because they’re not my I don’t see them every day. I’m not going to see that person. I’m just worried about who what my friends think of me, what my family think of me. And am I being a good person to my girlfriend or my brother or my mom and dad? That’s what you should really be caring about, not about what user 101 things. Do you know what I mean? Like that’s the least.

What’s your in this journey where you’ve come from? Just making some content and then getting really successful at it and then brand deals and modelling and all that. What was the darkest?

Yeah, I was just about to ask, what was your darkest moment? Yeah.

Oh.

I tell you what I think it’s honestly it’s the the followers. Because I think the the more you get, the more pressure you have to feel like you need to perform to that audience. Like if you looked into a room and you had 100,000 people in one room, you’d be like, Holy shit, I’ve got to talk in front of 100,000 people. Like you wouldn’t be able to do that. It’d be like you’d be nervous, you’d be sweating. So it’s the same as going on your Instagram story and talking on there, but you’re doing it in to an audience of 100,000 people. So I felt when I got over 100 K, I felt almost had pressure on me. And the better I got at doing things like it’s the same as when I run or create content. When I first started, I wasn’t very good, so I had nothing to compare to. I had nothing to lose. But when I start getting good at it, every video I started posting, if it wasn’t as good as the last one, I’d put pressure on myself and go, don’t post it. It’s not good enough, which isn’t the way to do it. And I still do it today. So I’ll then because I’m at the top, I’ve got 178,000 followers or whatever. I’ll compare myself to other people have 170 K, and I’ll look at their content and I’ll be like, God, this is better than mine, or that guy’s better than mine, or he got to 200 K, his is better than mine. And I’ll go because I’ve got to that number, but then I’ve got to I got to remember, well, what was I doing when I had one follower like or two followers, my content look back at my content from ten years ago. So bad. So for me, it’s the pressure from feeling like I need to perform all the time. When you don’t like you don’t. You need to have days off, you need to have time off. And I’m I’m.

At some point on one day. Did that become like overwhelming and yeah.

Do you ever get did you ever get like severe crippling anxiety from social media.

So I yeah I get it all the time. Like I am a really anxious person quite frankly. And I hold it in well and I can’t control it.

You wouldn’t realise.

I think I do a lot. I think I’ve done a lot of things to help me balance it. So I see a therapist once a month. She’s been incredible. Same therapist, only ever. One I’ve seen and I haven’t seen anyone else since. So I see her about once a month. And for people who can’t afford or have the privilege of doing therapy, then I think just a good conversation with a friend is equally as important or can actually help as much. Or starting a new hobby, or taking your mind away from things that aren’t causing you anxiety, and waking up and not touching my mobile phone first thing in the day. Going to sleep one hour before no blue light or no screens again. Doesn’t have your mind wandering with all these thoughts and same when you wake up. You’re not jumping into your emails is another thing that’s really kept me anxiety at bay. And if it does come, just let it be. It’s a bad day, not a bad life. Like there’s going to be some times in life and days and years where you have that day where you can’t get out of anxiety and people go, oh, just breathe, breathe, go meditate. I’m telling you right now, you cannot go meditate. When you’re anxious. You cannot do it. You do the meditate. You do the meditation in the morning or whenever you fancy doing it too. So when you are anxious or in those bad thoughts that you remind yourself when you’re in that state of flow and state of chill and calm, that’s the state you can try and get back into, but you can’t go and just breathe it out because it’s not going to work. And you can you can lose a day and say, oh, you know what? That day, today’s not been good, but that’s okay. Just knowing that it’s okay.

My question for you is, though, you said like all these great coping mechanisms tell us how you ended up on this marathon journey. So first of all, like how many marathons you do, why you decided to do a marathon and how that’s helped your mental health.

So running for me, I actually started it when I got an injured shoulder and I couldn’t lift weights and I this was gyms, a part of my routine. I like training and I just lifted weights and I was in quite good shape, bodybuilder esque, like big, not not stacked, but like big. And excuse me. And I started running because I couldn’t lift weights and I was a bit slow, wasn’t I was always okay at school, but I wasn’t great now. And I started to get okay. So I set myself a challenge of a half marathon and I wanted to do it in sub one hour 30, and I did it in one hour 27 across the line, absolute gassed I was, I see I did it, but then I started right, right. So I did a marathon and I did my first ever marathon with not much training because I got given like a place with a brand very last minute, did it in three hours, 37 and my first ever one was like 302 only two years ago, actually two and a half years ago maybe. And I was like, oh my God, I’ve got to get into this. I trained for this. I could be a okay runner. And I started running. I set myself a target last year about seven, 8 or 12 months, 14, 15 months ago, set myself a target to do a sub three hour marathon. And I this is my first ever trained one. So I did about seven weeks of training to get this sub three and everyone was like, yeah, you’re never going to get a sub three on your first attempt.

I remember telling my mates, If I’m ever going to train properly for a marathon, I want to do it sub three. And I never forget the face they all went, no chance mate. Yeah. And so I put the work in and I got sub three on my first attempt. I did a 2 to 58. And anyway, the reason why I started to run was one because the shoulder. But also this moment of peace. I just have like there’s a lot of run clubs and I think it’s great running with people. But something incredible about running and present, about running by yourself first thing in the morning or after a long day at work where you can’t physically look at your phone or touch it, or compare yourself, or scroll media or whatever. It’s just you, your breath and your feet and the tap, tap, tap, or a bit of music or podcast in your ear or whatever. And I think that is just incredible. And I love it. Whether it’s raining, whether it’s cold outside and the sun’s rising and you see the sunrise or whether it’s a beautiful day, I think there’s just something empowering about it. And there is. Leaving the gym is great. After lifting weights, you feel great, but leaving after a run that runner’s high is the best feeling I’ve ever had in my entire life. They talked about. I think it’s massively made my mental health just feel a bit like, have a stressful day, go for a run, go.

For a run. Yeah, that was so I mentioned to Payman earlier. So did you have you listened to the latest Steven podcast with Dr. Tara Schwartz?

I haven’t yet, no.

It’s amazing, but she talks about the impact of aerobic exercise on the mind. I don’t know if you guys knew that. Not weightlifting. So first of all she talks about different studies. So with weightlifting with people that lift heavy, even if they didn’t lift just thinking about it, they had muscle growth.

Yeah. That’s that’s I’ve heard about that. Yeah. Apparently if you if you picture yourself in the gym and think about yourself lifting weights, they do say you can something like psychological empowering about I think it’s like a placebo though I think she talks.

About the effect of aerobic and actually causing. I think it is neurogenesis. So we were talking about this earlier how like you can get like increased neurones. And with aerobic exercise in particular, you have more of that impact of neurogenesis where you can get like an increase of like your neurones. And then if you go for like have a break from running and then you like run again, like it can do that even more. So there’s a huge benefit. Like people overlook cardio because they’re like, don’t do cardio, don’t do cardio. And I think that’s actually a really because we’re not thinking. We’re not talking about just physique. Why? The most toxic thing that’s happened with exercise is that we’ve completely related it to physical and aesthetic goals, when actually it has huge, because I know people that aren’t in great shape and are amazing at sports.

You know, let’s talk about. So for me, this is when I got into a really unhealthy place of fitness. It was when I got to Australia, as I told you guys earlier, and I got into the best shape of my life, I was like 4% body fat. Me and my brother, we were counting all our calories. We only really lifted weights and that because if you lift weights, it will aesthetically get you into the place you want to be 100% fat like you are growing each specific muscle, lifting each specific muscle to grow to where you want it to. And you will look the best. That’s just fact. But I got so unhealthy with it. It was beyond belief. Like every time I go out for food, I would I would probably eat chicken salad dressing on the side, nothing else because I was worried about the calories and I knew that I was like calories. I would barely drink because I was I was in Australia, I wouldn’t drink, I’d do nothing. I was so boring. All I wanted to do was go to the gym, and the girls upstairs used to come downstairs. This is how bad it got.

The girls upstairs who lived above us would come down. Go. Do you guys want to go out tonight? And me and my brother would go, oh we can’t. We’ve got something on tomorrow. Got to go to work in tomorrow. Unfortunately. When really we had sushi dinner that we wanted to save because it was our calories and it can get so caught up in your mind. It actually makes you have a bit of an eating eating disorder. So for me, it was like every time I had a burger, I’d be thinking about the calories. So I actually completely stopped counting calories. And what I do now, I think, I think it’s not bad to go through it, because once you go through it, you understand what you’ve done, you’ve learnt about it, right? And now, like I’ve got such good balance between running fitness, eating aesthetics, drinking it all, and I think you need to go through the bad times in this journey to learn it, and you won’t learn it by someone telling you on YouTube. You can tell it, but then you’ll be like, I don’t get it until you go through it. And I’ve gone through.

It all now. Level of obsession that you’re discussing, it has its positives, right?

Yeah, totally. In the meantime, in the moment it doesn’t until you can digest it and be like, oh, that’s why I did that or that’s why I’ve done that. Yeah. Looking back, I remember I was honestly trying to get shredded for a holiday to Marbella when I was 21. I’d go on this egg white diet where I just ate egg whites and broccoli 800 calories, diet like because I wanted to have abs. That is so unhealthy. What am I thinking? Yeah, you don’t need that at all.

So as well, do you? Have you ever tried alternative modes of therapy to help your mental health? Like, we’ve had a few people on this podcast talk about like plant medicines and other things like that. Like what’s your view on that?

Yeah. So I actually I’ve dabbled a little bit in psychedelics and now it’s quite a taboo, taboo thing to really talk about or discuss because there’s not been a lot of like science based evidence, especially with mushrooms. More coming out.

Yeah. Psilocybin. They’re going to be using it for depression MDMA.

They are in certain. But it’s it’s how our body reacts to it right. If you drink alcohol for the first time, you don’t know how you’re going to react to it, and 90% of people are probably going to be sick or drink too much, and it’s going to make you have a bad headache. So you you learn from that experience. And it’s the same with psychedelics. You don’t know how your body’s going to cope with it or what your mind is going to do. So you get a bit panicky, maybe until you understand what it does to you. So the first time I went on it, it was in a controlled environment. And I think that’s the best thing to do with any drug or anything you do should be in controlled environment. And that’s why in America now in like Texas or Houston or Austin, it’s like the psychedelic Mecca of the world in and they do it all under control people. So you have like therapists doing it for you. So I was going for a bit of a rough patch of and I was a bit anxious, worried about what’s the next part? I didn’t have a girlfriend at this time.

I was I felt a bit lonely. And in London you can probably know. It can be a very lonely place. And I was like, screw it, I’m going to go on this retreat. My friend Louis, who, you know, who had this podcast, he was like, mate, come. You’ve got nothing to lose. I was like, you’re right, nothing to lose. Turned up. And I went on this amazing retreat in Wales and I knew no one there. Went by myself, told my friends all last minute, I’m actually going on this retreat to do psychedelics and do mushrooms. And they were like, you fucking what? And I’m like, I don’t even know what I’m doing, but I’m going to do it. I’m all about new experiences, right? And I went on this thing and I sat down. They were like, right, we’re going to do a sharing circle. And as soon as the sharing circle started, I was like, what the fuck have I entered into? This is not me. Like, get me out of here.

Woo woo!

It felt a bit woo woo and it felt a bit, a bit like a bit intimidating, like, why do I need to share my thoughts and feelings? And I did it and I felt really good. And I was like, this is, this is before I’ve done any mushrooms, by the way, or any psychedelics. And I was like, wow, isn’t it great to just let your thoughts off your chest to strangers? Because we’re all doing it and.

We’re all connected.

And we all had similar thoughts. It was like, this girl to the left of me have nothing in common, but the thing she was saying I could completely resonate to, and it was like, isn’t that funny? Like, we all are so connected in this world. And then the next day you go to bed. You don’t. I took off social media. I turned my phone off, left it in the car, didn’t touch it for two days. So the conversations I’m having are so raw, so real and amazing. And because I think for me, for one, I get judged quite a lot because I like to dress well, take care of my skin, and like to do fitness and groom myself. Self-care quite, quite. Probably too extreme. But anyway, I do. And so a lot of the initial judgement is people think I’m arrogant and that’s okay. I don’t mind that. Anyway, I thought it was a really good place for me to actually tell these people who I truly am and the personality, because actually, at the end of the trip, a lot of people were like, damn, man, I judged you as soon as I walked in, like, I thought you were just this good looking guy at this retreat, thinking he’s someone else. And I was like, I’m so sorry about that. And I was like, I was so honest that you’re like that because I think we all do it. Like we judge people walking down the street for having pink hair.

And actually there could be the loveliest person or having something. They’re just going fancy trying something new. Yeah. And anyway, did the psychedelics and during the experience, it’s very like I first I was quite nervous because I’ve never done this, but I just said to my body, in my subconscious, in my mind, surrender, surrender to this and let it be. Whatever happens is lean into it. Because if you step away from it, lean away from it. You’re going to block the drugs out. Because the way I say it is, if if you’re smashed out of your face, right, and you’re boozing with your mates and your mum texted you saying your dad’s in the hospital, get home now you’re going to snap and you’re going to go, I’m not I’m not drunk anymore. I’m sober. I’m alert, I’m focussed. So your mind can take you out of certain situations if you want it to. And it’s the same with the psychedelics. If you want to be taken out of it, you will. But if you surrender to it and just say mushrooms, like whatever you do, do your thing and it will work really well. So the first hour I’m taking it and I’m like, oh, can I go to the toilet? Should I go to the toilet? I’m not a bit sure. And I was like, just Henry, stop and do what you want to do.

And I went to the toilet, came back, went back into this like kind of weird trance. And it takes about a week to really digest what you’ve seen and done and to really put it into work. And the moment, the first time I did it, I’ve done it twice now, and each one I’ve had different experiences, but the first was a very special one because I think the other people around me were really significant. Have, since I’ve done it, have been a real significant part of my life, and they’ve all been friends now and they’re all really interesting people on it. Some were entrepreneurs, some were, I don’t know, some celebrities or whatever, and there were some really cool people there, and I connected really well with these people. And I think for me, it was like that sharing circle the next day after you’ve been on it and everyone again sharing their experiences was just such an amazing, amazing thing to hear. And it was just like such an eye opening experience. And I left and I sat down and I was like, because I didn’t touch my phone this entire week and I was like, wow, the world doesn’t actually go that fast. We just think it does because we’re always scatty we’re on phones, we’re running at 100 miles an hour. But actually, you know what? It’s slow. You can have it. I’ve had about 13 incredible conversations before 1130.

In the morning. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I know what you mean. But we’re so busy doing things.

And was everyone’s experience similar or different after.

Everyone actually had very different experiences? I think. I think, you know.

The thing is with psychedelics, as they have shown, because they’re doing so many studies on it, particularly with psilocybin and mushrooms and stuff like if you have on those levels, because there’s like there’s different levels, right? And there’s a really famous psychologist at Imperial that does studies and there’s like certain doses. So you have a recreational dose. So that’s when you’re like, ha ha, I’m having fun. Yeah. Then the dose that Henry would have taken, which is more like your ego, they call it ego death. So the ego dies, right? So the ego dies.

A heroic dose.

Yeah, exactly. So then you get pushed, you get pushed, you get pushed into the closet, as they said, with your skeletons, and things will come up. Like you might see things that are uncomfortable, your parents or stuff about your relationships.

So that.

Doesn’t happen to.

Everyone, though. Everyone has different appearances, a lot of the time you can go and have intention. My intention may have been I want to find the future wife, what type of girl I should be with that. Maybe everyone, but you don’t choose how the mushrooms.

Control your brain. They’ll take.

You somewhere. They’ll take you somewhere else. It could be completely different. It could be you as a child playing football and how you got tackled by a boy. And that caused your trauma for the rest of your life because you’re now scared to play football? I don’t know, um, pretty bad example of that, but you get my point. Um, for me, the first I’ll take you back to my first experience, because I actually did mushrooms in Thailand, jokingly, recreationally, recreationally. And when I was travelling and again, all I did was get the giggles. It was hilarious. We had the funnest time ever. It was really good fun. Um, but this was very different. Didn’t get any of that hilarious moments for me. It was more deeper, very deep. So things I actually saw, um, was the type of girl I need to go for because I’ve had two relationships, but by this time one of them was really good. But we broke up because I went to university. The other one was a bit toxic, a bit fire on fire, and it was. And at the time I was dating these type of girls and in my vision it was like, you need to go back to someone like your first ever girlfriend, because that’s exactly what you need.

And now so you saw that in your second.

I saw that and know first trip, first trip, and then what else I saw was my dad on his deathbed. And that was horrible because I was crying in the trip and it was like, okay, so again, a week later, what does that I’m writing these down and I read it afterwards and I was like, what does that mean to me? And in that moment that was like, your parents aren’t here for a long time. Maybe go and spend more time with them. Maybe that’ll make you happy. Maybe that seeing your mom and dad more often is going to make your.

Dad was perfectly fine. Fine? He still.

Is fine. He still is. But it’s just like, maybe that is like.

There might be a worry, though. Do you see what I mean?

I haven’t got many. You haven’t got many experiences left with your say. If you see your parents, say if you’ve got parents still and I’m 31, my parents are 67 and 66. Say, if I only see them twice a year and they live till the average age of, say, 75, that’s only 29 more times I’ll see my mom and dad. It’s crazy. Isn’t that scary? And then it’ll be 28, 27. And that’s sad. Exactly. So it was like, I need to make a more conscious effort to go see them all the time. Not all the time, but more of a conscious effort. Pick up the damn phone and call your mum and dad because they want you to call them. Like my mum is always like, oh, you never call me anymore. And I’m like, I know, I.

Know, I put you on that guilt and you feel so bad.

But you should. Do you know what? It’s not hard when you’re walking down the street to pick up your groceries or something to go. You know what? I’ll give my mum and dad a call because they all really appreciate you.

Not call your parents every day all the time.

But you know what my mum’s like? My mum’s like, you never see us, you don’t want to hang out with us. And the thing is, is like my like, I’m so like, death is such a taboo subject, right? As in, like, we don’t talk about, we can always see our parents getting older and it’s a few little struggles. You know, me and my sister are like, dad looks a bit old. Do you know what I mean? He’s looking a bit more frail. He’s forgetting things a bit more, you know.

Yeah, same as what my me and my brothers are doing.

The thing is, it just. It is a really scary thing, but it’s also like a part of life, like we are going to lose our parents. And this is.

One thing I talk about with people of success and doing things as well. It’s like there’s only one inevitable thing that’s going to happen this one, we’re all going to die, right? So go do what the fuck you want to do anyway. Like, why are we stopping ourselves from thoughts of what other people think? Because like, go fucking do it like you want to start that business and all your friends think it’s crazy. Fuck it. If it doesn’t work, you’ve learnt something like go do it. And I’m saying that sometimes for myself because I need.

You to say it to me, Henry.

Yeah, like. And me and Rhona talk outside this podcast and she goes, me babe, sometimes I have imposter syndrome. And I’m like, what? You you’re a successful entrepreneur. You have this amazing parlour business, you have this amazing tooth business. Sorry. Dentistry business. You’ve got a podcast. You, in my eyes, are the most successful person I know. And then she’s like, Henry, I look at you and think, your content is amazing. This is amazing. How do you get imposter syndrome? And I’m like, I think we are the worst own thoughts.

But we also think people are thinking about us, you know.

Are we overexaggerate our own importance? There’s far too much.

There’s an amazing woman I found online. Her name’s Sarah, something, and she’s a woman that is in Dubai, and she talks about how she has dealt with stigmas all her life. She’s a divorced Middle Eastern woman with 27 tattoos that doesn’t cover up. And she was saying that, like people, especially in the Middle East. In culture like where I’m from, have always judged her for things. And then she said that she did like a massive detox because when she lost a lot of people being her authentic self, she lost a lot of people. She goes, but it felt so good because the people that stayed were the people that loved me for who I was authentically. Do you know what I mean? And then she goes on to say that, like, your brain is like tofu. Be careful what you marinate it in, because if you marinate it in shit like toxicity, it absorbs that, you know what I mean? It’s like a sponge, right? Yeah, exactly. And I think, like, you know, that that is the most important thing. But you’re right. We forget that we have one life. And over and over again, people on their deathbed, as you know, they get asked, what do you regret? You know, and the regret is always doing the things that they wanted to do that they didn’t.

Living for other people’s expectations. But, you know, you get you guys are a bit younger. You get to my age and you start to regret the things you didn’t try. Yeah. That definitely what?

Well, I’m already seeing it already in my.

Products or companies or whatever. It was. Many things we haven’t tried.

Yeah, I think it’s so true though, because I always look at it like this and it’s easier to say than it is to do. It’s like money will come and go, like just fucking spend it and give it your best shot on whatever you want, like, because you can go back and make money. That’s the Middle.

East in a way. By the way. My mom’s Lebanese. She spent she’s like, Alex, buy me the Chanel. We might die tomorrow. Which really justifies everything, you know, like everything. Because Lebanese, by the way, they grew up in war, like, their whole life. Like Payman knows it’s the most bougie country in the world. Yeah, a bomb will hit. They’re still clubbing because they’re like, you know, you’re like, Yalla, we might die. You know what you were saying?

There is like buying me that thing anyway. So I think there’s a lot of, again, ways to look at that. Like there’s two ways to look. Oh, the first thought is £1,000. That’s, you know, maybe I shouldn’t do it. But then the other thing is, if I wear that Chanel bag, my confidence is going to go through the roof. So will that confidence make you better at work? Maybe. Will it make you get that boyfriend, your girlfriend you really want? Maybe. Will it make you walk with confidence? Maybe. And I think confidence is so key in anything we do. We talked.

About that. We talked about exercise and confidence because people were saying that. We say, oh, you shouldn’t have aesthetic goals. But then if aesthetic goals make you more confident and the confidence brings you other things in life, is it.

Bad, do things bad. But I do think every everyone who starts in the gym probably has some sort of low level of confidence and the and they’ve got some sort of validation they want to have to have. And I think I do.

Anything at the beginning of anything. It’s very difficult. Yeah.

Maybe. Yeah I think I was like that as well. Probably I was a skinny lad at uni and wanted to get all the girls, so I started lifting weights.

So when you look back on the journey, what, what, what are the high points? What comes to mind when you think of like the moments where you can take real pleasure?

So was it was like when I first started this, I was like, one day I’m going to work with this brand and this brand. And the moment I started working with them, it was like, fair play. I’ve done what I said I was going to do this brand, was it what was All Saints? And quite cool because and Ralph Lauren and I was like, you know what, fair play. Because I’ve always wanted to have the email being like, oh, we invite you to this or you can wear our clothes. And it was like, I remember 18 years old, I bought a All Saints leather jacket, my mum bought me one for my birthday and I was like, mom, there’s a lot of money, £330. And now and I’m not saying this gloating or anything, but it’s like I can contact them and they’ll send me one. And it’s like great feeling. It’s like, you know, I worked for that. And people look at it.

And the thing you work for, that’s the thing, people.

Look at it straight away, go, oh, you got this easy. I’m like, mate, I did it exactly.

When people are like, you should get in the TV gig.

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Yeah, it’s it’s the same people, right, who complain. Right. So there’s two types of people. There’s the person who has the wife, who has the two kids and still manages to work out. And there’s the other one who what you were saying, and there’s the other person who comments on everyone’s post, but you don’t have kids and it’s the person. But there’s still, I guarantee there’s someone out there still finding the time to get the work in and do X, Y, and Z, even if they’ve got kids in a job and everything. Exactly. It’s just what you prioritise and what you spend those other little minutes doing that could save you on other certain areas of your, of your, of your life.

So what does the future hold for you?

Yeah.

I think it’s a really good question because for me, the future. I’ve been doing content creation for a while now, and I’m seeing all the changes and things like that, and I almost feel like I want to pass the baton down to the younger generation in content creation. Don’t get me wrong, I still want to do it. I think it’s going to be a part of my brand and what I do to showcase things, but for me, I really want to get my own fashion brand. I’ve got an idea to implement, like running kind of wear in more of a fashion wear fashion aesthetic, not like Nike, like performance clothing, but cool aesthetic in the running kind of space and fitness space, but also fashion space as well for like holiday wear and stuff. So I’m working on some designs right now for my own fashion brand, and I really want that because I think it’s for me, it’s like I love creating content and stuff like that, but I really want to have something which is bigger than my name and grow a brand, and I can impact. Impact? Yeah. Like I can always if I see someone wear my jumper down the. Street or something. And they bought that. I’d be like, fuck yeah. Like, and I get that now. I get people messaging me online and it’s like, that’s.

A dream lots of people have had. Right. So but now that you’ve started that process, what are the things about that that surprised you or you weren’t aware of or I mean, for instance, just for the sake of the argument, you want to make that jacket? Yeah, you got to make that in seven sizes and four colours. Yeah. Suddenly you’re talking 28 SKUs of that jacket.

Totally. Well, so far what I’ve learned is like, start small. Like you can’t expect to have a jumper, a t shirt, a pair of trousers, a pair of shoes off the back of it. Right. You have to start small. And again it’s just consistency like we talked about earlier. It’s starting small and being consistent with it and learning along the way. There’s going to be mistakes. I’m not going to I know for a fact I’m just not going to be all plain sailing because like you said, everyone would have done it. So it’s just and if it doesn’t work, it’s okay.

But in specifically in fashion, what are some things you’re starting to learn?

Okay, so I’ve got a sample made the other day. Samples can come back really shit. And they’re also really expensive to make. You know I think they look really good. So I get this jumper and I’m like, not not what I thought. And that’s £130. And I could have bought a nice jumper for £130, which is. Yeah. So it’s things like that. Um, the, the logo, the, the branding, the, the name having meaning behind the name is really important. Like I could just slap. I don’t know, there must be a reason why you started. What was the reason for you starting in lightning and lightning smile. Is there a reason behind it? Is there a brand behind it?

Yeah, yeah, but but I mean, one thing that’s very interesting. When we try and make something, there’s two ways of going. One is you stick your name on something that exists. Yeah. And the other way is where you make something completely new. And making something completely new costs us maybe five times as much. Totally sticking our name on something. I think with.

Fashion, you don’t actually need to reinvent the wheel all the time, because if you look at fashion, what actually happens is it goes in circles, just it goes in cycles. Right. So certain trends right now will probably go in May, maybe stay like there’s always some things that are going to stay leather jackets, things like that. But there’s certain trends and styles which will go round in cycle. So it’s like understanding what’s big now and then. You never know. It could become big in ten years, but for teeth to making them whiter or something, maybe a complete like you said.

You want to do a t shirt or a shirt, let’s say. Yeah. And you’ve got a specific idea about the way you want the stitching on the on the shirt or something. Unless you unless someone makes that specifically for you. Yeah. You’re not going to get that right. So is that the way it is that that is ready to go. Things that you can stick your name on got you or there’s like, you know, cutting new shapes and is that is that how it works? Well essentially.

Yeah. Like the manufacturer I’m speaking to at the moment. I said to him, listen, I want this, this, this. And he’s like, yeah, we can do that. So there’s just certain certain things people can do. If they can’t do it, then you find someone who can. Yeah, yeah. And it may take a long time to find someone who can. The thing which is really tough with any business, I think, is let’s take content creation for an example. You want to get better at photography, but to learn it. I learnt a lot of mine off YouTube. But what do you type into YouTube if you don’t have a clue about the terminology? Yeah. So there’s things on a camera which is ISO, aperture and things like that. But if you had no idea what aperture was, how could you say, make my photo look cleaner in YouTube? And then you get all these videos. It’s the same as like starting a clothing business. What is the word for this? Like, do you know what you need? Almost a dictionary of your words and everything. But it’s also about dentistry as well.

It’s about starting like Paula was the most like difficult thing I’ve ever done in my entire life. Because also like with dentistry, like I so had like a clear idea. And then I went on courses and then I invested. But like with business, especially a Start-Up like know it’s all it’s it’s all this new terminology and you kind of learn like on the go. And like recently I learnt all this stuff about business, like, you know, like shares, articles of association. Do you know what I mean? I had no flipping clue at that.

Richard Branson started a business and he made it to the top. And he still doesn’t know the.

Difference between Net and.

Gross. So do you know what? If you if you’re here and you make that, you’ll be all right.

Yeah, I think I think one of the big things like that Henry has brought today, like a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of great tips. But you know what you’ve shown a lot of people just start and also have the like, have the vision in mind, because I know that when he was that guy at Fitness First that didn’t have like he wasn’t going to be one of the biggest, like, content creators in the world. He just knew he wanted to do it. So you have to start somewhere.

So as I said earlier, self-belief is so important and we’re always going to feel something every day. We’re going to feel like, oh, we don’t deserve to be here. But if you can control your mind and just stay in that zone, you’ll you’ll get there. And that’s what I got. Mind over feelings tattooed on my under my bicep here first ever one. I love it because I think we feel something all the time. But if you can say to your mind. Your mind. You can do anything.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Henry. It’s honestly amazing.

I really.

Really, really.

Enjoyed that chat.

With you both. And yeah. And, like, probably have to bring you in for like, part two. Let’s do.

It. I’d love that. Thank you very much. Amazing. Thank you.

Lovely to chat to you both.

Thank you.

There’s always new techniques, there’s always new materials. So the way that I plan a case now is different to how I was kind of planning it two years before. I keep seeing changes in the way I speak to people. I keep changing my my consent forms, and I’ve got this 20 years of experience now that I endorse change. I’m not I’m not scared of change. The only limitation is that being an associate, I don’t have a full freedom to kind of open my wings and do whatever I would like. Because if there’s another five people like me, I cannot just be a like a wild card and do whatever I want. But just look for your mistakes, keep training and those change. That’s my message.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr.. Kostas Karagiannopoulos. Dr.. I know that’s what they call you cause there’s your your students love you. Kostas is a prosthodontist who splits his time between private practice in Chelmsford and Saint Albans, and also a consultant at King’s. He’s also part of the famous wonderful Biotinylation group, which I’ve had a lot of lot to do with at its inception. And he’s one of the guys who, when you talk to his students, everyone just loves this teacher. Someone who’s super passionate about his work. And lately he’s gotten into injection moulding of composite injection moulding for all sorts of different cases, both aesthetic and functional cases. Real pleasure to have you. Costas, how are you?

It’s great to join you guys. Thanks for having me. It’s, uh. We’re going to have a good chat and share some opinions. I had a long, clinical day today, but I’m really happy and excited to to to meet up with both of you. I’ve met you on separate occasions, and now it’s. It’s great to be here tonight.

Welcome, Costas. Think what was quite interesting was how we met, because we were both speaking at the same event, and there was a bunch of names that were on this roster of people I was speaking alongside, and Typekit was one of them, so I clearly knew who he was. Then there was you, and I’d never come across you, Costas. And that doesn’t mean a lot, but but then, obviously, I saw you speak, and I’m no clinician, right. So I’m not a judge of clinical work, but I can I can appreciate beautiful teeth and beautiful photography on slides. And I saw that and a very charismatic teacher and then and then pay as you know, I always go to my clinical guy or my point of reference. And I went to pay and I said, so this, this guy’s stuff, is it good? And payments like good. It’s fucking amazing. Prav this, this is the best shit. Right. And so so then I go to Tiff for, for a second, second opinion. Right. And it’s like, this stuff’s amazing. Like, well, why have I heard about all these other injection moulding guys and never heard of this guy, right. You know, I see that as I know you teach and run your own courses. Costas. And I see this as you know, I see this a lot that people who are either really very, very good at what they do and amazing at what they deliver. Not many people have heard of them. Right. And as a marketeer, I find that really, really interesting, really interesting because it’s it’s very, very easy to market something that’s absolutely amazing and harder to to market stuff that’s less so. Right. I guess before we get into your backstory, every Tom, Dick and Harry is doing injection moulding now, right? What’s what’s the deal with that and what’s your point of difference if you don’t mind me putting you on the spot?

Yeah. Good question. It’s it’s something that I get asked a lot because being a registered prosthodontist, it doesn’t automatically go hand in hand with these technique of fully guided composites or copy paste composites. So, um, it started about six years ago. Um, and I got an interest about this through my teaching position at King’s, where I look after the training specialists, and we were struggling to get a predictable result, and it was kind of down to to Bob the builder techniques. And there’s nothing wrong with freehand. It works. Whereas I wanted all my students to, to to put a lot of planning and engineering and architectural work. So I had to kind of think of there’s got to be a way to, to do similar fully guided stuff in the world of composites, similar to implants and ceramics. And I’ve been experimenting and toying with all sorts of techniques. I’ve made every single mistake that there is to make in this technique. And I’d like to consider myself, let’s say, a pioneer, a leader in this technique in this country, although I kind of do a very good job of keeping it a little bit of a secret about. How well I know this technique. So what kind of also gave me the label of the injection moulding guy? Although I tried to get this label off my of my forehead is some webinars that we did withdrew from dentinal tubules of Covid. And after I did that webinar, I got asked a million questions and I got invites for for this and that. And now I’ve ended up having trained about 6700 dentists in Europe and the UK. It’s a very popular technique. It’s a catchy technique. Call it out of laziness, call it out of predictability and consistency. But it has actually transformed my dentistry and it has changed many people’s dentistry.

Of course, that’s one of the sort of indications and limitations when it comes to, you know, whether you’re going to do it with composite or has a prosthodontist. Obviously, traditionally people do it with indirect. What can you tell us about that? Because, you know, the technique hasn’t been around very long.

Absolutely.

Yeah. And the materials, the, the by its very nature, the materials have to be sort of flowable or, you know, heated up to become flowable or whatever. Flowable what are the indications were the limitations.

But before I answer, I’ll tell you something that a patient told me this morning. Um, he he had some worn down teeth. He was in his 30s, and he, he kind of did some research that, hey, we can use some composite bondings which are like, say, additive and high maintenance, and they’re going to last about five years, or I’m going to take a little bit of a hit financially, and I’m going to take a little bit of a hit biologically by having my teeth shaved down to some extent and go for porcelain veneers. And I was kind of pushing him a little bit towards the former that, hey, listen buddy, you’re very young. I wouldn’t want to have my teeth shaved down. So I was pushing him for the, let’s say, cheaper option and he was telling me, listen, don’t you want to make triple or quadruple the money from me? I said, I would love to, but I’ve got my kind of ethics, and I’d like to recommend what I would do for my brother. So I’m a little bit biased towards this technique. I love ceramics, I do a lot of ceramics, but I want to give them a chance. So to to answer your question, the main kind of three indications is tooth wear, the worn dentition, um, whether that is erosion from acids, whether that’s kind of attrition or a combination.

The second indication is the kind of the makeovers, the people who come and say, hey, I want composite bondings. And I don’t know where these people where 15 years ago, but now they’re just banging on our door asking for composite bondings. And the third indication is actually as transitional to ceramics as long term temporaries. The technique has been around for, let’s say, 20 years. There was a guy in Alabama, there is a guy, he’s still around, Douglas Terry, who came about with this technique. But the recent advances in material technology have made it a little bit different. So the one of the main questions I get asked is like, hey, how dare you go ahead and put this week kind of Mickey Mouse composite on the incisal edges of your patients. So do I have the published evidence to to to answer back? I don’t all I have is my own experience of five years and several lab studies, some of which have done myself. So this kind of weak flowable is not a weak flowable. It’s performs as well as standard composite paste. Hence, I kind of believe in the benefits of having it flowable because it adapts, but there is no solid evidence. Limitations is the classic things that composites have chipping and discolouration. So average longevity that I give to patients is about five years.

Yeah. But but the limitations of the technique as opposed to the limitations of composite. Oh there are things you can’t do. Oh yes.

That’s what you meant. Well, the things that are not kind of best indications for this technique is like black triangles. You never really going to get a good result with. Technique. Diastema closures are probably better off done with curved matrices and anatomical matrices, and also what most GDPs do up and down the country, which is some form of a line bleach and bonds, where you have to add little corners and small edge bondings, if you will. So this technique is not for small additions, is for big comprehensive plans rather than tiny little corners and additions. These are better off than freehand because you said.

The new materials are the new variables are stronger than they used to be, and I guess they’re more highly filled than they used to be. But what makes the thing flowable if it’s more highly filled than a non flowable and stronger than a non flowable, what? How can it be a flowable?

Yeah, it’s I mean traditionally the floorboards, they had very low filler contents, about 40, 50%. The one that I. Where are you now.

With, with your material 70s. Where are you.

What do you mean where am I? Which brand?

The material that you’re using. Well, you’re using the.

Yeah. My preference is, is the material that kind of dominates this injection moulding technique. It’s called genial universal injectable.

It’s what’s the filler filler.

That’s it’s 6,969%. But it’s not only that. It also has a kind of a silent technology where there’s no big particles and small particles. So so it has a very good ability to to have a gloss retention over time. I haven’t really seen any other material other than the, the, the, the enamel micro that can, can maintain a gloss over time. And the Japanese kind of dominate that market because the main materials are coming from Kuraray, Shofu and JC and I mean, I just finished a lab study at the Eastman where we compared a composite paste, probably the most popular composite paste in the country, and we compared flexural strength and wear, and it came significantly lower than that of the of the JCS injectable. So the material science is there. The material science is there. All that’s lacking is the clinical performance study, which I wish I had the time to do, but I’m struggling for time. If anyone wants to help me, I’d be delighted to to run a study with them.

So but what do you tell patients about longevity then? You say five years.

I tell them exactly what I tell everyone that has composite bondings. I mean, patients are not statisticians. Okay? So the minute you tell somebody that, listen, the average longevity is five years, the way they perceive it is how I would perceive it. If I’m buying a fridge from John Lewis that, hey, I’m going to get a free remake up to the very last day of that five year period. So I go to the extra step and I tell them that, listen, things are going to chip and these repairs are payable, but the frequency and the severity of these chippings means that at about 5 to 7 years, we’re going to need to go for a round two. So I’ve got a very long comprehensive consent form, because what the restorative dentist hates to do is free remakes. It’s a it’s an utter failure. So so people need to know what the rainfall. And as my mentor Frank Speer told me that, hey, would you like your cardiologist to hide anything from you? So I let people know that, hey, we’re not going to shave your teeth. We’re just going to add. But this is not for life.

Must. Let’s go through the process because, you know, obviously we looked at this a lot and I’m sure you went through down a lot of rabbit holes and dead ends and you know, any, any, any sort of development processes like that. And when we looked at it, the number one, the issue with the flow tables, but now you’re telling me you’re happy with the strength and where is the sense of the flow? But the problem that we couldn’t really get over was clean up always with injection and compression. Moulding with clean up was always a big issue. And the sort of air infusion. And as you inject air inclusion, not necessarily by, you know, the teacher but the delegate, you know, that you need to be, I don’t know. We found it very difficult not to include air when we were injecting. You must have had an we gave up right at that point. But you must have had several other hassles and things that you’ve worked through. What I’m trying to go with the question is, you know, being at the tip of something where you’re developing stuff, often you’re making sort of your best guess as to what the right thing to do is of making mistakes and so forth. And it’s in a way, it’s your responsibility as someone at your level. It’s your responsibility to to move things forward. But what how much of that do you share with the patient?

It’s I’ll come back to the patient. Yes. The technique has let’s say the frustration of the delegates is, is the, the cleanup as well as bubble formation. So what I’ve done internally. Yeah. If anything you might get a void subsurface, which in my case happens in about 1 in 15 teeth. So I have different ways to minimise it. We have researched and tried extensively different stents and different vents in order to, to, to start injecting and how you’re going to place your tapes and where you’re going to start, where you’re going to complete. So we teach on our courses several ways to minimise the voids, but you cannot eliminate them. So remember one of my profs at at King’s was was kind of telling me that, listen, injection moulding is great when when you come up with with zero flush then come and speak to me. But but then again when, when any piece of plastic is kind of made with injection moulding, there is always flush. And that is then kind of trimmed up. So the benefit that I have over heated composite paste is that my kind of cleanup is going to be much easier compared to heated paste, because the stent is going to be the stent is going to be the boss. So I’m taking, let’s say, a little bit of a hit by using a weaker composite on the name of rigidity and replication. As far as the voids, yeah. 1 in 15 is going to happen. I look for them, I inspect the restoration, I deal with it. I kind of open it up and repair it on the day using certain lights, but it’s a case of minimising it.

Now as far as the patient is concerned, what patients love about this technique is, is the power of the of the mock up, the test drive, the try before you buy. And I was kind of in in Germany last week and I was telling the delegates that the two best things that I’m at both teaching and executing is the mock up process and temporary crowns, two things that have nothing to do with the final treatment outcome of the patient. So when you kind of want to buy something, you like to try it out, okay, it’s not a free test drive. I charge for this mock ups and the the replication of the design is, in my opinion, much better than using heated composite paste. Why? Because composite paste cools down very quickly, very quickly, and distorts the stent. You’re going to have plenty of excess and you need burrs and disks. I never use any burrs in order to clean up my composites. If I pick up a diamond, that’s an utter failure. So the process kind of almost excites the patient because they they get it that, hey, it’s going to be a copy paste. And I’m not I’m not going to deviate from what I showed them. And that avoids misunderstandings. And when I want to do a little Instagram video to show how excited the patient is, it’s all kind of pretence because the patient knows. From two weeks before exactly what they’re going to get. So so I take a little bit of a hit on the, on the, on the strength of the material in order to win on the predictability.

And I guess you’ve played around with lots of different materials for the stent itself.

Absolutely. The current one that makes a.

Big difference, right?

Oh yes. Listen, the the, um, I don’t hide from the fact that my dental technicians, they make me look super cool because I recreate anatomy that I would struggle to, to create myself. And all I have to do is not make a mistake. So the key to this technique is excellent communication with the lab. You need the top, top, top level of designing. As far as the stent itself is concerned, we now call it the cross the work stent because we’ve spent five years of mistakes of how to, to, to to kind of not to make it. And we have kind of cracked the code. And the way we make our silicone stents now is just awesome. What I also did with my partner Zo from Prostate Works recently because because the emphasis and the onus for this technique is on the designing is is we are designing smiles for dentists. So we are providing a CAD service for, from from prosthodontist to, to dentists.

Oh, sorry. Perhaps ready to geek out, man, but I’ve got.

Look, I’ve got a.

Couple of talks.

I’ve got a couple of questions. Right. Which may seem a little bit too simple. Um, but to be honest, maybe they’re not.

I’m not finished.

You’re not finished yet?

Go on, crack on. Crack on me. Go ahead, go ahead.

So, listen, I spend a lot of my time talking to GP’s, right? And when they come to me for marketing advice, I start quizzing them on their post-graduate education and training they’ve got. And because I’ve got a mark on them. Right. So. So I was asking, you know, if a dentist comes to me and says, hey, I need some implants through the door, I’d say, all right, you need some implants. Tell me about your clinical skills. Are you doing ones and twos? Are you doing full arch? Do you do immediate load, do you do sinus lift, blah blah blah blah. On the composite side of things, what do you know what I mean? Like where do you sit. Yeah. And what training have you done? And all of that’s really important to me as a marketer, because then it helps me to articulate or communicate them in the right way. Right? So in the same respect, I’m sat here now thinking. How the hell do I communicate? The difference between cost us five years of mistakes across the extent. Yeah, to another one. And look, wherever you look on Facebook now, somebody has got an injection moulding course here and an injection moulding course there. And someone else is running this, that and the other. Right. And you’re talking about flash and cleanup and blah blah blah and this, that and the other. Right. What’s the difference? What what is the difference? Like like Costas is telling me his technician makes him look amazing because he recreates anatomy in a way that maybe he couldn’t before. Right. And in my mind, from a simple point of view, what you do is you take a piece of plastic, chuck it in the mouth, get a syringe, throw it in, pull it off, and you’ve got teeth. Yeah, yeah. That’s right.

So some of them, some of them look better. Some of them look better. Some of them are easier to clean up. Some of them are harder to clean up. But you know, I mean, Costas, you’ll know. You’ll know better than all of us how many different ways people are doing it. What I what I understand is there’s this sort of the smile fast way, which is the all the teeth, together with a metal separator unit in it. And then there’s Robbie the way he does it, which is the alternate teeth, which is, I guess, your, your technique as well, alternate teeth, but using normal paste. And then there’s your one which is with flowable. But but from my understanding it’s the aesthetics, the way that the flowable and the stent interact means that you can get more detail, secondary anatomy wise, for the sake of the argument with Costas. Is that right or no.

It is right kind of answer, perhaps. Point. Firstly, we had approached the works. We we hit hard on the quality of the designing, in other words, the communication with the dental technician. So one limitation of training for the last couple of years is that we were training clinicians how to implement the technique, but then it was down to these GP’s to find the right support, the right technician who’s going to speak the same language. And that was a bit of a barrier, because if you have average records, you’re going to get an average design, you’re going to get an average mock-up. This technique has zero capability of improving. The best it can do is replicate. So what differentiates us from, let’s say, our competitors is the extent at which we go to of sending very comprehensive prescriptions, a series of photographs and digital kind of superimposing, which is going to be facially driven in order to customise each and every case rather than having signature. Kind of small, though, that looks like a post-work smile, the way ceramics might look like Luke Barnett ceramics or whatever. So it’s down to to to this bespoke extent. Please repeat your point Payman because I forgot it. I just focussed on perhaps.

Prav ask the question and then I said I think it’s to do with, it’s to do with the way that the material and the technique interacts with the with the stent. So the way it looks is one thing. And then the clean up question, which is the big issue with all of injection moulding, seems to be a bit better with you.

Yeah. It is. Um, again, it was about a month ago. I was in Belgium and a couple of the delegates did a couple of injectables on a type of don’t on the plastic model. And the way that the material came out, it required zero polishing. It was super, super shiny. So they asked me, I’ve been doing composites for 20 years and my composites have never been shiny upon setting the light. So I asked them what was it that polished it? And I can tell you it’s not the material, because if you just use it freehand, it looks matte. Okay. So what it is that polish is it? It’s the super glossy silicone stents. And that is a replica of the super glossy wax up. So the shiny righties, we actually put it on a, on a lathe like a denture in order to, to get a model, which is giving your reflection almost so that you need minimal human touch.

And just like, just like a mylar strip, right? When you put a mylar strip on composite, take it off and it’s super polished.

Absolutely similar to the bio clear injection moulding, because it’s going to be that’s going to hardly need any polishing. So these are things that keep evolving. We keep finding out about new like spinoffs and branches as well as. New indications for this technique? Yeah.

Do you prefer wax up wax ups or digital, or have you taken it fully digital.

For five years? My preference was what I call a hybrid technique of having a printed model, basically of a scan, but physical wax on the printed model. So it was combining the best of both worlds in order to get outstanding anatomy, which required a master ceramist, if you will. But in the last six months or so, the advances of digital libraries are such that we can the anatomy and the the morphology that you can get digitally is par with the one that you can get analogue. So all the cases that we now design are on a exocad the dental software. And we’ve gone fully digital indeed.

Oh, really? Excellent. So is it to do with the resolution of the of the sort of print? Is that what.

The. That is a good point. Typically, as all dentists would have seen printed models, they have these annoying lines on them. The printing lines. Um, so it’s not a true representation of somebody’s teeth. So we have a few ways to, to bypass that and get a model which has zero printing lines. It has to do with the resolution. It has to do with a little bit of manual finishing of the model. And as I said, it’s been five years of painful mistakes where now what we do digitally is as good as we would have done it manually in analogue, but it took five years of of painful mistakes.

Prav. Sorry to keep going. I still don’t.

Think my question’s been. I still don’t think my my question’s been answered.

It looks better from the patient perspective. It looks better.

So you guys said you guys said to me this, right? It’s about how it looks. It’s about the cleanup. Yeah. And the technique or whatever. Right. Alternate to this, that and the other. So I want to know in one sentence. Right. If we take cost as injection moulding we take Robby’s and we take smart. Right. So which one looks the best. Which one’s got the least cleanup and what’s the technique or am I asking a controversial question here?

It’s too controversial for cost.

I you you know, you you know, you both you both don’t know me that well, but you you would have guessed by now that I’m not going to give a direct answer because it’s it’s it’s disrespect to colleagues. If I said mine is better, but all we do is we go to extreme lengths to customise that functional result in aesthetic for that specific patient. So we we do not have, let’s say kind of a signature design. One fits all. And I’m not suggesting this is what my competitors do but but it’s what we do a very high level. And patients will appreciate that because they get to see this on the trial appointment on the, on the on the mock up appointment. And they get involved and it’s about making a bespoke result and a customised result.

I think I have the answer to my question, but I’ve got a follow up question, which is this to deliver this superior end result, does it take more time? Because what I hear marketed about injection moulding is it saves time, right. So now what we’ve got is maybe a copy paste model, and then we’ve got a copy paste model with a layer of bespoke ness over the top, where actually you don’t just have a library and say, we choose this, but but us goes to a to another level in terms of design or whatever, right? That’s what I’m understanding. But does that mean it takes a lot longer to implement in the patient’s mouth as a result of that, or is it a similar time frame?

Very good question. And you’re right. Whatever time you save clinically on the day of execution, because if you do a freehand composite makeover for eight teeth, it might take four hours easily. If you do this, let’s say in the injectable technique, you’re not going to save a lot of time. You’re not going to save a lot of time. It still takes me a good three hours. So what I don’t sell to is, is fast results. What I don’t sell to GDP is the ability to do multiple of these cases. My eyes are completely burned out. I only do one case a day maximum and yes to to. Whatever time you save on the execution is actually spent, not chairside, but on the communication with the lab. So it’s done, let’s say in the evening when you’re sending a very comprehensive prescription to your lab technician. If we receive a wax up prescription, say wax up 3 to 3 with nothing else, we just reject it. So so when we were sending it out to our own labs, it’s like an A4 page with multiple pictures. So a lot of time is invested in the planning. Speaking to your architect about how you want your house and you save some time. Chairside. So dentists love saving chairside time, but there’s a bit more admin time, if you will.

I think the other thing, you know, you talked about the indications and we seem to be focusing on the small make-over indication, but what’s particularly interesting to me is the tooth wear indication becomes a bit more about that because I mean, if it’s erosive, is it different if it’s efficient?

Just to add one more point to, to to to perhaps point before I go into the tooth wear. So just to add one more benefit, is that on a Monday morning, if I get to do some freehand composites and I’m not now comparing to to other injectable techniques, I’m comparing it to freehand. If I if I do it freehand, I’m in a good mood. I didn’t argue with my wife. I might smash the result and it’s going to look stunning. But on a Wednesday afternoon I would have got a text from my wife giving me whatever. A list of things to do or something, and I’m a little bit off. So my composite’s on the Wednesday afternoon are going to look wrong. There’s not going to be consistency. So the injection moulding technique eliminates that element of consistency not eliminates eliminates the mistakes and the lack of consistency. Um so you know what you’re going to get.

You’ve said it. You’ve said it in a very elegant way there, Costas. But but really, the point is, someone like you can do it and do it much better than someone who’s not as experienced. Well, listen. Whereas with whereas with, with injection moulding we really do reduce that variability a lot.

Yes. It’s you can still make mistakes, but you know exactly what you’re going to get from from two weeks before. So it’s it’s not quite a slam dunk, but it’s, it’s pretty close to a slam dunk with a little bit of experience and some training. It requires training this technique, you can’t just go ahead and do it on a Monday morning. It gives you consistency from Monday to Friday. Now to go on to the the tooth wear. It’s it’s a disease let’s say which is much more prevalent. We see it more and more in younger people who have, let’s say a healthy diet and more acidic elements in the diet and more reflux and, and even more eating disorders. So what we know from the tooth wear research is being additive and minimalistic, and small biologic costs is always preferred. So injection moulding and the wound dentition, they just kind of met on a on a on a on a on a Friday night in a bar. And they’re kind of inseparable. So so I don’t know what happened later on that evening. But but the main indication for me is indeed the wound dentition, because that’s the referrals that I get from GP’s and blessed them. A young, inexperienced general dentist, when they see somebody with moderate severe where they don’t even open up the discussion. Why? Because they haven’t really got something tangible to offer. So so they either stay quiet and kind of whistle away, or they kind of send the patient to, to, to a specialist. So you got to change the occlusion. Usually you got to be comprehensive. You got to do extensive number of teeth. And that is a conversation which is very comfortable for me. So I see that longevity and performance of injectable composites for tooth wear perform extremely well. I did cases five six years ago, and the patients are massively thanking me for giving them a lifeline and preventing having to cut their teeth for for crowns and veneers.

Would you say that’s only by referral to a specialist? Or would you say GDP can pull it off as well?

Oh no. Absolutely. Listen, the we set up the injection moulding course, which is a one day course to learn the A to Z of injection moulding and all the questions we were getting, all the questions had to do with tooth wear, palatal erosion, incisal kind of grinding. So a year into prosperworks we had to come up with with a tooth wear course, which is a two day prosthodontic course. And what we tell people is that this is something everyone can do. I would love you to all refer to the specialists, but you don’t need to. It’s something very simple. We go through the chronological journey of a patient in that course, and we promote Glps to actually take on more challenging cases. And the ones that have kind of grasped on the idea, it’s kind of life changing for them because they’re super confident about carrying on complex dentistry that otherwise would need an MSC, if you will. So this is not a specialist territory. I’m never going to protect the the specialists for the management of tooth wear, okay. If it’s massively severe and is missing teeth and there’s TMD, then you probably it might be beyond your leak. But the 90% of the tooth wears are kind of localised, moderate and should be done at primary care level 100%.

What about cost wise cost us? What do you charge compared to.

I’m not cheap, man.

Good.

You you remember I was saying earlier that I spend a lot of time on the designing and the the, the. The discussion with the lab. So. So that is reflected on the course. You want me to give you an exact number now for for for per tooth. Exactly.

Ballpark.

Well, I can give you an exact number. It’s it’s fine. It’s £550 per tooth. Which, which is not cheap. Okay, but I raise value in this through the process of a mock up, through detailed discussion of the patient being involved in exactly what thereafter. And on the maintenance aspect that. Listen, after we do this, we’re kind of dentally married and you pay me quite a bit of money. Now, everything for one year is guaranteed. Let’s say any repairs are free of charge, but thereafter you have to have an annual maintenance budget. Ceramics are going to be about three times as much. But then again, I’m a little bit biased. Let’s say being a specialist, I might be charging more than the average GDP, so ceramics are going to be at 1500.

Same price on a Monday or a Wednesday.

Absolutely. The only difference is that if I’m doing if you’re okay, you’re joking. And I’m answering seriously, but, but, but but if I’m doing a single teeth at the front, I’m going to be charging more. But, uh, it’s going to be the same on a Monday and a Wednesday. I just want to be consistent. I’ve kind of streamlined the process, and it’s a three step process for the patients. Records mock up execution.

Contact before. Move on to see Prav just itching to get away from this subject because I promised him this podcast wouldn’t be this this way. Listen.

Listen, listen. I’ve been itching to get the injection moulding label off my forehead. And when we’re not, we’re not doing very well here.

But when said, when I say this podcast, I don’t mean this one. I mean the whole podcast. We were supposed to discuss people’s lives instead of teeth, but because I’m geeking out one last final, final question. Do you ever do a layered approach? Do you do a cut back or something?

Oh, absolutely. We’re planning a hands on course in April. I’m bringing a world class clinician from France. We teach layering, but I’m I’m bringing somebody who’s better than me. He’s a guy from France who looks about 15 years old, and he’s amazing at layering. And Celine Higton, my partner in crime with bad emulation. She’s going to join on the day and do something on Rubber Dam. So on a toothpick course. We teach layering in terms of dentine, internal fingers and adding some effects, and then just injecting the facial enamel so that you don’t need the skills of anatomy. So it’s a hybrid technique of whatever we’ve been doing for the last 30 years with palatal silicone case and adding the dentine, but just the very final layer. Instead of going straight, you take a sneaky left and you inject. So this has a lot of future and I don’t want to present this that hey guys, I want you to hold this skill and forget about going to D.D.S. or to Mini Smile Makeover or whatever in order to get the freehand skills. I want people to learn this, but it’s just an auxiliary supplementary technique.

What about cutback? Do you ever cut back and then put another layer of effects or something.

It’s it’s typically we’re going to do it in such a way that we we measure the layers and we just inject. I tried to lay the cutback some three years ago and it was a hassle. It was messy. Plus it wasn’t consistent between teeth, so I gave up on it.

Point. Good point. Let’s move on. Where were you born, buddy? Where were you born?

I was born in Athens. And when was that? 1977. I’m 46. I left exotic Greece in 95, and I moved to something more exotic in Whitechapel to study dentistry in the East End, and I was just telling my dad the other day that I’ve left Greece for 28 years, so it’s a lifetime. I’m never going to go back. But in the summer, Greece is the only place to be, at least for for European standards, because we’re we’re better than Italy and Spain and and Turkey. So I’m as Greek as it gets. Yeah, fine. Fine. Seems fair enough.

Yeah. So you did your undergrad in London Hospital. So you specifically, why didn’t you study in Greece? What was what was the story there?

The the story was that kind of the Greek system required you to memorise a 500 page book and replicate it? There was no kind of critical thinking of any sort. And my older brother had a bit of a bad experience. So so, I mean, I didn’t have an initiative when I was 15, but my dad said, listen, I have a little bit of a background from the UK, so I prepared for the A-levels in Athens. I sat the the A-level exams on the same day as, as all my kind of British peers and surprisingly, I passed. I turned up for some interviews and I don’t know why I chose the Royal London. It was an experience to to be over there before it was massively invested, so it was a bit of a shithole in the late 90s, the university, the university in Whitechapel, now they’ve kind of spent much more money and specialist training. I did it at King’s and the minute I finished I started teaching, which I did for 15 years, and only last week I quit King’s College London, and that’s me done with teaching in a university.

That was, that was that was a run fast, fast run through of your career.

It was it was a little bit.

But tell me, what were you like, were you always very good a no.

No no no absolutely they, they but back in the third year, I remember my dad received a letter that, hey, your son is expelled from the school because of lack of attendance. So, so, so he as a typical Greek dad, he came over here to take control in his hands. And we made an appeal. And we collected all the evidence that I had of attendance. So they let me repeat the year. But then they really pissed me off. And when I get pissed off, I kind of react. So I finished with kind of distinction in the end, but I was super average on the first three years, super average.

And what was the reason for your lack of attendance? Were you partying too hard or.

Oh yeah, partying non-stop. Really? Well, listen, if you leave your family home from a different country and you go into halls of residence where there’s no mum and dad around and Greek, Greek mums and dads, they they just support you financially. You see, there was no student loan or anything for me. I was kind of privileged, let’s say. So I was just partying for three years until they kicked me out. And then I said, okay, now I’ve got to study.

And was the plan always to be a specialist or did that happen? Sort of. The thoughts happen later. I know in Greece there’s a lot of specialists like, you know, the way people think, my Greek friends, every time there’s anything wrong with them, they don’t go to the doctor, they go find a specialist.

It’s yeah, mean in Greece, there’s lots of students, full stop. They all like to study something until they’re 45 years old. But pros came out of frustration from dental school because back at the London it’s now called Queen Mary’s restorative dentistry was very poorly taught, so we didn’t have any decent teachers. And out of frustration that, hey, I don’t get it, I don’t get it. It’s like, how does this fit and how things work? So I said, I’ve got to do a specialist training to understand the subject. Mind you, when I finished the specialist training at King’s, I realised that I know nothing. So I went to several courses in the States to actually learn the business from Frank Spear and Pascal Magnier and and D’ardeche in Geneva. So they were my mentors.

What’s your advice then? When a young guy comes up to you now and says, hey, I want to get really good at fixing problems. Is your advice to follow the path you followed? Or would you say go straight to the spear thing?

No. I tell them to to invest quite a bit of money on a continuum of education through, let’s say, spear education or equivalence rather than the the official specialist training. I know how this is taught in this country if they do want to become specialists. And I’m sorry this if any of my hundreds old trainees are listening to this, I would suggest to actually do the specialist training in a different country. Geneva, like Switzerland or the US. It’s it’s tied up too much to the NHS and it’s not focusing purely on education. So you don’t get value for money by overseas students. They pay £55,000 a year, bless them. And this is the reason why I quit, because we don’t align anymore and I’m all about education. I want to give, give, give. But the trust has its own agenda. Bless them. And they are focusing on numbers.

Yeah I mean look the NHS has been, you know, in Britain they think of it and have like a love hate relationship with the NHS. Right. Because you think like oh it’s there for if you have an emergency medically. But in dentistry I feel like they’ve finally achieved the goal that, you know, the conspiracy theorists used to think they want us to dump it. You know, that’s kind of the way it feels to me. Yeah.

I mean, what I tell young colleagues is, is collect some money, go to the people that inspire you. I mean, I got inspiration from a lecture from Frank spear, who was talking about failure, and I said, wow, if that guy is talking about failure like this, I want to see him talk about success as well. So I spent some, I don’t know, £25,000 on courses in the US. Um, and that’s what I suggest. People, thankfully in the UK is blessed with a plethora of private Dental education. So so mind you, I did most of mine abroad at source rather than through the British Messenger. Um, so I’m a little bit biased.

So I mean, when you say that though, do you not also end up putting yourself as one of those messengers? Are you a messenger?

No, I was about to say. I was about to say I’m I’m the injectable guy at source, so I’m, uh. I’m, uh, I don’t know, I’ve got so much experience with this technique that that I don’t think anybody in this country, the sphere that I’d like to to say so. Yes, in my modest kind of mood. But, um, I’d agree with that. Yeah. I have been a messenger for my mentors, and the simulation group is basically disciples and messengers of the, of the, of the messages of Pascal, Magna and biomimetic dentistry. And I’m leading that team for the UK. Indeed. So but this injectable technique me and so we are kind of spearheading it in the UK.

To date through the population, groups of people who don’t know about it. Because I was a little bit I was completely seduced by it back in the day. And I went I went to a conference in Berlin that it was it was a big event in Berlin back in the day, whenever that was like ten years ago, 15 years ago. And it was the best presentations I’ve ever seen, one after the other. It was it was a crazy thing. I mean, first of all, the AV was just the most extraordinary AV I’ve ever seen in a Dental setting. And then the presentations that Ed McLaren and Panos Basel’s where does it come to now? I haven’t been following it.

Well, it’s it’s formulation is a group of dentists. Let’s say it’s got about 100 members all connected by the drive to preserve dental tissues and avoid aggressive dentistry. And we share kind of ideas and protocols. My contribution is the is the Mickey Mouse injectable technique. And we just came back from a symposium in Bulgaria. There were 500 people and indeed there was 12 presentations, one better after another. What we’re actually planning for the end of next year, we haven’t announced it yet. And probably when this podcast goes live, it’s not going to be common knowledge. But we are planning a London symposium for end of 24, and we’re bringing the creme de la creme of bisimulation to run an international meeting in a very international town in London. And all I have to do is organise it, and I have no clue how to do that. But it’s going to be about education is not going to be about any other kind of agendas. It’s not an academy, it’s not a profit making kind of organisation. And it’s not even, let’s say, a clique or anything. We’re going to open up a pathway for people to enter by simulation through an educational diploma, an educational program. So we’re planning lots of things for the UK with the rest of the team, which is Govinda birth, Celine Higton Zoagli and Claire O’Connor from Ireland. Nice.

Keep me informed, buddy. That sounds so, so exciting. Seven tell. But you did your training at King’s. You could do any private, any practice. General practice at all in the middle of these things. Did you do the NHS? Did you work in the NHS for any period of time?

I did, I did up to the point where the UDR kicked in and I think it was 2004, which is when I started my specialist training and straight after finishing it, I walked for about 15 years in Richmond in, in, in a very good quality private practice, and I was kind of doing GDP work, although I was kind of a specialist. But then at some point I said, listen, I can’t really hide the fact that I’m a specialist anymore. Prav is going to laugh because I’m a pretty good at hiding things. And I started going for specialist jobs and then the training opportunities came. So I’ve been through the item. I’ve been through the NHS, dentistry in hospital. I’ve been through a good private practice of doing kind of GDP work, but now I’m purely limited to to prosthodontics, which is not better, it’s just limited. And I work in two specialist clinics around London, and I’m planning to to move to, to the west and sometime in the new year. Oh, nice. What’s the extent.

Of your work? Do you do implants as well?

Yeah. I mean if anything the, the, the two things that I regret not doing in the past, one is never opening up a business because I don’t know if I opened up one, I would be in the pub by midday. And the second and the second thing that I regret not doing in the past is any serious surgical training. So I kind of see a drop of blood and I start running so I don’t place any implants. I rely on my surgical team either prosthodontist or Periodontists, and I just do the restorative part. So I’m that’s something that I kind of should have done. And I now keep saying to myself, it’s too late, forget about it. I’m not going to open up a business. I’m not going to start placing implants. I’ll just stay in my little comfort zone. But I do a lot of implant work. I do a lot of ceramic work. Although the majority of the cases that I get referred and they come specifically to me because in one clinic I have five prosthodontics and another one seven. They refer these cases specifically for tooth wear and injection moulding. People think that, hey, this might be a good case for for this technique, so I’ll send it to them so that that keeps me busy.

And so that’s what’s a week in the life of of Costas in and outside of dentistry. Right. So we’ve been talking a lot about dentistry today. What about outside of dentistry?

Well, the other thing that I do a lot before I go outside of dentistry is I do a lot of travelling and I go, I’m a key opinion leader for, for Europe. So I do a lot of travelling and I’m trying to stop this and cut, cut down on this. I’ve got a nine year old son, Alexei, who is kind of put a ban on any international travel, any weekend travel, and my hobby and my extracurricular activities is spending time with him. And okay, we do mess around and we do our sporty stuff. That’s that’s what I do. So hobbies are such for my own, for myself. I’m not really going to say that I’ve got anything kind of left. The kind of phased out over the years of of just being a dad and a bringing some money to the house. So whenever I’m not doing any Dental stuff is just focusing on family, but it’s never enough time. So he keeps moaning.

It’s never enough.

And I want and I want him to keep moaning because he’s doing the right thing. Of course.

He is. Us. Um, what would your if your nine year old could pick the perfect day? What would it entail? With you. Obviously.

Like if. Oh, if he, if he could pick like.

You say, you spend some time, not enough time hanging out with him, right? But if he could pick the perfect day with dad, what what would you be doing?

The ideal day would be one where his mum has booked a four hour haircut. God knows what he does for four hours, but something along these lines and then it’s just the two of us. So we’re going to start the day with a little bit of a PlayStation because he’s, let’s say a Covid baby. So so he had a screen time exposure, bless him. Then we’re going to go and play a bit of tennis in the most weird places, like a car park or something random, just completely makeshift kind of tennis. Then go to the local park and tackle me to death playing football. A bit of cycling, just active stuff, which I can just about manage, which I can just about manage as a 46 year old. But I’m I’m feeling the heat already. So. So you Prav you do a lot of kind of activities and you stay healthy. Well, I don’t try my best. So in a couple in a couple of years I’m going to struggle to play football and tennis and all of that with him. But active stuff. Yeah. Awesome.

Let’s get to the darker part of the show.

Yeah. What is your biggest clinical mistake? And I don’t want you to say something like, hey, I picked the wrong patient, but, but, but something when you were in the mouth and you had one of those oh, shit, what have I just done moments.

Um. The first thing that pops to mind is something that stayed with me. I told you about my outstanding surgical skills, and I was kind of taking out an upper six. And of course, the route broke and I was trying to take out the final part of the route, which which kind of completely disappeared on me. I knew that it had gone into a structure called the sinus, which is an empty airspace, because I was pushing that hard that I pushed it into an area that I shouldn’t have, but I was just kind of whistling away in denial that, okay, I can’t see it anymore. So it must have come out and I didn’t really manage it correctly. The poor guy came a week after with a with a swelling, and his sinuses were all over the shop, and I had to kind of send him to Max Fox to have it managed properly. So I learned that you’re never going to get anywhere by just hiding from the problem and kind of whistling away, thinking that it might disappear. So I did it in my own kind of knowledge. I said that it’s never going to come and kick me back, and since then, I’ve just made the change that I would always tell patients what I would like to know rather than please them. Because the minute you try and please someone, it’s always going to come and hit you back. I’m not saying keep them happy, that’s a different thing, but just telling them what they would like to hear.

Trust us. You know, a lot of times, I think you alluded to this when I saw you lecture as well, was you learn from your own mistakes. With patience. Can you think of times where you’ve learned something from the sort of the not from the procedural perspective, but from the sort of human planning perspective? To the patient after seeing them years later when you’ve done something.

Yeah. This is, um, it’s it’s I’ve got a little bit of a disadvantage nowadays because in a clinic where I was for 15 years, I had the merit that I could see how my own work was, was performing, and and now I moved to, to a couple of specialist practices, and I don’t do check-ups. Okay. I do my treatment. I tell people, off you go. If there’s any problems, you’re gonna come back to me. But I’ve, I’ve lost that ability to, to, to see my own work. So I have that limitation as a specialist. So what I do advise young dentists, the majority are going to be GP’s is to, to find your nest, find your base and stay there. Because that constant idea of just being a little butterfly and flying from one position to the other, which is a very typical UK mentality in finance and advertising and whatever doesn’t really work in dentistry, you need that continuity because you. In 2016, you did the best that you could, with the best knowledge that you had and the best skills. But when it comes over years, then, then you’re kind of changing something. Otherwise you would do exactly what you did in 2016. So I’ve lost that kind of merit. And I just see people when there is a problem and I might get an idea, but GDPs have an advantage over that.

But what was the learning point?

What was the learning point that dentistry evolves, although it’s kind of set in stone, and we’re going to be doing a filling the same way that we did it before. There’s always new techniques, there’s always new materials. So the way that I plan a case now is different to how I was kind of planning it two years before. I keep seeing changes in the way I speak to people. I keep changing my my consent forms. And I’ve got this 20 years of experience now that I endorse change. I’m not I’m not scared of change. The only limitation is that being an associate, I don’t have a full freedom to kind of open my wings and do whatever I would like. Because if there’s another five people like me, I cannot just be a like a wild card and do whatever I want. But just look for your mistakes, keep training and those change. That’s my message.

Yeah, but. Sharon. Mistake.

Share a mistake. Other than that.

I mean, you said. You said. You said. You’re absolutely right. Everything you said is absolutely perfect. I really enjoyed everything you said. I used to do veneers when I was a young dentist. I used to veneers and I did stay one place for four years. For only four. Yeah. And four years later my my veneers in approximately stain was occurring. And so I learned from my own mistake there to number one do less veneers because you thinking I’ve done this wonderful beautiful thing. And number two, if you’re going to do veneers, extend it more and approximately so that you know that that interproximal extension of the prep thing. So I learned that by by saying that. Give me an example clinically that, you know, with your level of work and all that that’s going to be I know it’s going to be nuanced, but this example is something where you saw something. Six years later and you thought, I’ve changed. I know you’re doing that every day, right? Give us an example to teach someone.

It’s it’s it’s going to come back to the injectables because I do a lot of them. I’ve done a few, a few hundred cases and it’s got a kind of A22 sides that I do something on day one. And I kind of I inspect it, I look for problems, I try to repair any proximal issues, any little bubbles. And I was kind of looking at something and I said, that’s going to be fine. But but then that patient would, let’s say, come back to me for something irrelevant. And I would say, how what what I knew back then was a small issue, but I kind of ignored it out of laziness, out of whatever that kind of extrapolated into a bigger problem. So I said it before we dentists, we know at least specialists know how things are going to fail. So so don’t hide from that. On a more technical note, it has to do with, again, as you said, wrapping around the wax up as much to the proximal as Pascal Magna calls it the proximal wings in order to hide the junction between tooth and composites. Otherwise you’re going to get that yellow yellow halo. Um, but but more importantly, to, to inspect things thoroughly and whatever you see and it doesn’t quite click with you fix it on the day rather than ignore it because you know that this is going to become a problem. And the patient might not know anything about it, but I don’t care. It’s like it’s my best way to improve so that I do the next case better.

Yeah. No, no. You’re right. I mean, especially with composite. Composite tends to compound like your small area tends to become a much bigger area six years down the line with composite. But you’re right in that, in that the basics of what most people trip up on. And so taking care of the basics, you know, at every step makes a big, big difference.

It’s yeah, it’s it’s it’s you’re thinking that a little void because it’s on the facial. It’s not going to grow into a bigger problem. Well it probably will. And even if the patient is not bothered it’s going to bother me that, hey, I could have managed this better. So the very technically demanding composites, they’re not easy. These composite veneers. And whoever is good at them, I can tell you spends a lot of time on them. Yeah. Do you advocate bleaching.

Them because those.

Bleaching the teeth prior to composite or bleaching the composite itself.

Bleaching the composite.

No, I’ve never I mean I do give trays and gels to people and protective guards. And I tell them, hey, you’re going to need to top it up on your teeth. I’ve never really looked up on the ability of peroxides to to to work on composites. I don’t even know if it works. Yeah, it does.

Not not not as far as changing the colour of the composite, but as far as preventing that little pit from causing dark brown. You know, void. Like looking, looking, looking. Preventing those, those those staining from coming in the first place.

So it slows it down in a way. Okay. Well more enlightened tubes for more, more, more enlightened orders to make them fine. Well, not 100%.

Sure what it does to the composition.

Well, you know.

One night a month.

You know, listen, I’m going to I’m going to give you a better analogy because many people come and tell me, people who have gastric reflux, okay. And they, they, they, they, they, they take omeprazole or whatever that listen, don’t do composites on them. It’s contraindicated because the acid will destroy the composite. And I feel like kind of slapping these people because come on, what’s the alternative? Let’s let’s leave the teeth to rot. You got to intervene. So. So I don’t care what the acid does to composite. I do actually care what the peroxide does if it slows down the staining process. So I’m going to I’m going to give that a go.

It’s the opposite advice that you normally give right. The normal advice is treat the teeth, don’t treat the restorations. But in this case, because composite is so composite is so unforgiving, right. You need to treat the composite to lightly. Let’s get on to career errors. And you alluded to one a minute ago. You said maybe you should have done more surgical training. But what would you say if you could if you could go back 20 years with full knowledge, career wise, what would you what would you which direction would you go or which things wouldn’t you have done and which things would you have done more of?

The. The one that I regret now is not taking the initiative and having the courage to open up my own business. And you may have heard this on several occasions. I always wanted to rely on just doing very good quality dentistry and not having to worry about teeth after 5:00. Well, sadly, I was surprised that I was thinking about teeth after 5:00. But but but not about whether the practice would burn down or whether the nurse would have an, I don’t know, a sick cat the next day and could not come in. So managing people and rotors and managing a shop is was never really something that I wanted to do. But now I kind of pay the price that I’m all my wings are kind of always a little bit kind of dying down, clipped a little bit from that. So I’m kind of, let’s say reaching my, my peak or on the decline, I don’t know. And I would have liked to have the full clinical freedom that this is where I am, this is what I do, come and find me, rather than an associate here or an associate there. So.

You know, dude, what if what if, what if someone said, like Prav said, listen, I’m I’m feeling good. Cost us. I’m going to put some money behind you and perhaps really good on the whole, you know, recruitment rotor part of the thing. And he said, listen, it’s your dream. You do it. What would you do? Like, you know, you don’t have to worry about those bits of it that you hate, right? Which Prav seems to adore.

Do I?

It’s what would you do? What would you tell us? Your dream like what would be the setup? That was the wings bit that been clipped.

Now I’ll tell you the the wings that I kind of was visioning the 20 years ago would be to have a nice glass facade dental practice on the on the top of a mykonos island cliff, and do a little bit of dentistry and then go to the beach. I’m still working. I’m still. I’m still working on that idea. Um, but yeah, I mean, do you think I want to have three sets of cameras and three sets of equipment and three sets of everything? So I would jump at the opportunity and which I did. Hence, I’m going to make a move into the the West End next year and just have my own base if you will, rather than be all over the shop. Amazing, amazing.

Just just a final question for me is how much of your work is patients coming to you to see you and patients coming to you because they’ve been sent to you by another dentist?

Um, that’s a very good question. So he kind of, um, I had control over that percentage because it was about five years ago that some of my students and my wife, they told me that, listen, you kind of you kind of good at what you do. You should open up some social media channels and promote yourself and blah, blah, blah. So for about 4 or 5 years, I was directing everything towards patients, like simple language, just trying to attract patients into coming and see me. And there was a very healthy influx of inquiries that, hey, I’d like composite bondings and blah, blah, blah. And then I made a kind of a switch that, hey, I’m just going to focus on dentists from now on and not rely on marketing patients directly. So if anything now it’s the referrals from dentists is 90% and 10%, let’s say people off the street contacting directly through my website or through the social media channels. Why? Because I want to have, let’s say, some sort of a filter, that GDP filter that somebody does want to do something about it rather than shopping around. They have the people that were coming through social media channels were just shopping around, or they ended up needing invisaligns. And I’m not the right person for that. So I don’t want to see anyone for a face to face consult that it’s not going to be suitable for me. So my clients, if anything now is.

I guess it makes sense, right? Because they’re all pre-qualified, right? You’re not having to. Essentially, we say in inverted commas, sell to those patients who’ve been sent by a GDP because it’s pre-qualified. Right. Yeah.

That that’s that’s another, let’s say, benefit and advantage that I have that by the time somebody comes to me, they already are hungry for for some treatment, they’re seeking some care and they probably have a budget in their mind. So I don’t have to have the difficult discussion that, oh, I can see a little bit of tooth wear here, or I can see a little bit of crowding. They’ve already been primed. And all I have to do is not make a mistake. So for that reason, let’s say my conversion rates are good. And how does the GDP feel? They’ve got no reason to make my life easier. Or my my my my wallet fatter. They just want to to their patients to be well taken care of. And they know that I will do that. And they don’t want to start a conversation for something that they’re not going to be able to deliver. So I send these patients back rather than poach their patients because I’m not interested in keeping check-ups. So I have zero interest in that. And all I’m looking for is a compliments from that GDP after a year or two. That’s wow. That that work that you did for X, Y and Z or whatever was stunning. And that is the best advert for me. So that I keep referring patients to me.

Because that’s as far as the sort of timing of your life. It seems like you’re mostly in practice, right? And then teaching is a smaller part of it, but if you could have it your way, would you teach more and practice less?

Um. Clinical practice and dealing with patients is stressful. There’s no dentist that that is going to say otherwise. I was in Israel, and I remember one of the profs over there was telling me that, listen, the minute you stop the clinical practice, you’ve got two years of teaching, then you’re dead. And I was like, no, come on, man. It’s it’s it can’t be true. He says, you’re going to be presenting the same cases again and again. You’re just going to be providing microwave foods. So. So don’t disturb that balance too much. So I’m doing more and more teaching through Prosperworks and JC kind of Europe and by emulation in the new year. Um, but I have zero intention of reducing the clinical activity, both because it excites me, both because it feeds new cases and new potential techniques that that I can do. And yeah, if I did stop the clinical work, I would just phase out. I would I don’t know that that guy was probably right. I would just teach for a few more years and then I would get out of date kind of thing.

Also, I think it’s your hobby, dude. You know, and you said you haven’t got a hobby. You got a hobby, your hobbies.

Teeth and photography and photography. Unfortunately. Um, so, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s. Listen, if I get a WhatsApp message about a clinical case, I will always reply. Always. So I do have a big passion for what I do when I teach. I give giving everything I have, which I did at King’s for 15 years. I don’t know how long that drive is going to carry on for, but while it does, I’m just expanding my educational horizons to, to, to to to provide the best I can, which is why I left King’s.

Think, think. Jesse Gulati, a good friend of Prav, said on one of his pods that the you know, the biomimetic guys in dentistry seem to be the happiest ones. And I wouldn’t put you in that in that box because you’re much more than a biomimetic guy. But but they are happy dentists, man. The real the real geeks.

I thought you was about to say you don’t put him in the happy box.

I wouldn’t put him only in that box. He’s a bit more than just a Payman. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I don’t really I don’t really do single tooth dentistry is is the cases that I do and I’m not presenting myself as better or whatever is my, my default. My default is is looking at the global picture is not single tooth dentistry. But I admire these people that spend a lot of time and science and thinking on doing one simple teeth, one simple thing to the highest precision and excellence. And I want, I want people like that around me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, let’s get to the. I’ve got. I do have one other interest though, dude. Yeah, that, you know, the problem solving part of it, the development part of it. Do you trace that back to something in your sort of like, you know, you said, oh, the first three years you were partying in dental school, you weren’t really trying to excel. Then you excelled. Just excelling piece being really good and being at the, you know, at the front edge of something. When did that come from?

That’s a good question. It might actually be instilled in most dentists. Although I have seen some who couldn’t care less. But let’s say the average dentist who goes onto courses and likes what they do is a little bit of a perfectionist. Where did that come from? Um, probably from my A-level years, where I was kind of prepping for A-level chemistry and physics and maths, and it was completely different to what I was doing 9 to 5 in the Greek school. And um, bizarrely enough, I was kind of keen to go back home and open up. I remember the book was called Ramsden’s. It was like A-level chemistry and do exercises and solve the problems. So I was seeing it as a, as a, as a hobby, like, like, I don’t know, just eating peanuts, you know, when you can’t stop. So that that is kind of probably where it started. But then I had a three year sabbatical of partying till five in the morning as a junior uni student, and then I went back into my geekiness and I said, okay, let’s let’s put some effort into this and okay. Then the pros side kind of came and I had the special interest for this. So it probably goes back to the A-level years. Yeah.

Amazing man.

I mean most teenagers would like to, to to to just go and flirt with a lot of girls. I was just doing chemistry kind of equations, but hey ho, um.

I didn’t, I did, I.

Didn’t the parting a little bit late though. In Whitechapel. It’s okay.

It’s fine.

Yeah, it was the same. Was the same but. And Prav Prav it was the Oxford, Oxford medic. There was some of that in years. Oh, Prav.

There was the first year I hung out with the English students and the historians, who had literally no work to do, virtually no lectures, and I was just blind drunk six nights a week, and everyone thought, this kid’s going to fail. Literally. Yeah. But then I think it’s like Costas says, right? When the crunch comes to the crunch, you kind of think, right, I’ve got to pull my socks up now and get my shit together and look for Costas. It took a visit from his dad, right, and whatnot. And for me, that’s it. I had the fear of my dad from Manchester, like, always coursing through my veins. Right. So either way, it was there was still a family influence to pull your socks up and get on with it. But I’ve always been a crammer as well. Right. So last minute you pull all the stops out, right? All or nothing. And onto our onto our final question. Costa. So imagine it’s Costas. It’s your last day on the planet. You’re surrounded by your loved ones, your boy, and you have to leave three parting bits of wisdom. Life advice. Call it what you want. What would they be?

Um.

The first thing is something that comes to mind, and it’s probably something I’m going to poorly translate from Greek, is that it’s best to kind of have a regret about something rather than say to yourself, how would it be if I did that? There’s probably an expression in English that, that that says that, but that bypasses me now. But you know, what I mean is that sense of like, not not having the cojones to do something and always be, oh, I didn’t I never really did that. And how would it feel? It’s, it’s I would just tell my son that, listen.

Go for it.

Go, go with what kind of clicks for you and see where it takes you. Because if it’s I mean, for me, I used to love, I don’t know, music and DJing and I wanted to be the DJ of a ministry of sound. Thankfully, I didn’t pursue that because I would be rubbish at it. Um, but I would just say to him that and it goes into the second point, that whatever makes your heart race, it’s going to become your, your hobby. So so, so, so go with that. And if you’re good at it, that’s let’s say the money will come. Now a typical Indian dad or Greek dad would, would, would never really agree with this that, hey, you got to be an accountant or a doctor. But the third thing is that, I mean, if he’s I hope it doesn’t happen in the next year, because if he’s ten years old, he would really understand that. When you do love someone, love them with a passion and give 100% of what you have because it’s going to be the biggest investment you can possibly do to show your emotions and your love to your other half. So that’s the three things.

Beautiful. Wow.

Nothing.

That question is so interesting because that question could could either be, look, I’ve done this in my life, so I’m telling you, or it could be the exact opposite. It could be that I’ve not done that in my life, but I want you to. Yeah. Of course. It’s such an interesting question. Of course, but mine isn’t as interesting. Fantasy dinner party where you can have three guests ready. Dead or alive. Which three guests would you have? Who do you want to have?

I can easily think of two out of three, and they come from the entertainment industry, and they are people that I never got a chance to see live on stage. One is Freddie Mercury for his magical voice. It was like borderline. I said, oh, early 90s. I was kind of a young teenager. I could have just make it happen, but I was a few years late. The second one would be because I love my kind of house music and dancing would be to, to, to, to to see Michael Jackson perform. And who is the, the godfather of of of of dancing because he was training 6 or 7 hours a day just dancing. I mean, who would possibly do that? The third person I don’t know, I don’t know, um, somebody like Prav who, who, who has the discipline to, to to say to himself or herself that, listen, I’m going to wake up at five, I’m going to suffer in on the name of my kind of physical health and subsequently mental, then go to the gym and, and follow the old ancient Greek kind of saying that healthy mind in a healthy body. And that motivation is something that I’m struggling to find in the UK, where it’s kind of gloomy and miserable and say, like, sod it, I’m just going to have have, have a fry up or something. So it’s not somebody specific, but, but somebody who could.

Who could.

Present a good idea and perhaps a good idea. Don’t get me wrong.

Well, I have this I.

Have this mental image of him like the, the.

The, the, the.

Freddie Mercury, Michael Jackson.

And Prav Solanki.

Yeah. See? Robin. Yeah.

No no no.

The interesting interesting. He says that. Right. So about 4:45 this morning. I get into an ice bath that’s two degrees C and I sit in there. Exactly.

All that shit.

I sit in there for four minutes, freezing my stones off and then spend the next 30 minutes shivering. Yeah. Yeah. Contemplating. What the fuck am I doing with myself? Yeah. And convincing myself this is good for me. Yeah. Um. And it’s dark and it’s miserable and it’s horrible. So I get it. And but but do you know what?

When you feel great for three hours. No.

Feel amazing for the rest of the day. But. But the thing is, I’ve been on the complete opposite end of that spectrum, right? You know that more than anyone else. Payman. Right where I’m literally in self-destruct mode, and I’ll wake up in the morning and make myself cheese on toast, you know, or or actually, I had pizza the night before, so I don’t even have to make myself cheese on toast.

You know.

So there you go. That’s probably the worst trio you’ve ever come across in the podcast. Michael, Michael Jackson, Freddy and somebody like Prav. But anyway, there you go.

What about what about if you could sit with a few dentists? Who are you like your dentist you want to sit with?

Which dentists do I want to do? What with?

Sit with.

Oh, um. Hula. Hula. That would be my my, my my three mentors. Um, and unfortunately, the kind of life brought it that they’re all kind of males. And that would be Frank Speer, Pascal Mani and Did.she because I don’t know, they’ve got so much to give. They are the best educators I’ve ever come across, and they can kind of educate in one minute. What it takes me about a fortnight, okay. Over dinner we wouldn’t quite talk procedures and stuff, but these have been the people that inspire me. So I’m kind of always looked outside of the UK. So it’s it’s not quite UK names.

I just saw um, nazzari in BCD water presentation, but I was really impressed with that.

Yeah, well, next year you’re going to be massively disappointed with the BCD Line-Up of Jaz Gulati, K.K. and Mahmud. So. So it’s going to be a bit of a letdown, but hey ho.

How you doing that up, buddy? Lovely. Lovely to have you back. Thank you. Really lovely to have you. Really enjoyed that very much. Thank you so much for sharing so, so openly.

Thanks, Kostas.

I think if we’ve achieved.

Anything otherwise, if.

We’ve achieved anything today cost us is maybe that, um, world’s best kept secret that you are is is probably not so much of a secret anymore when we publish this. Right. And more people find out about you.

Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. It was it was great to chat and it was really a joy indeed. I really mean that.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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It’s scary. It’s really scary. From the financial perspective. I think that that was probably the scariest because I was sitting and earning money and then putting it straight into this. And.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Regular listeners to the port will remember episode 113 when we interviewed the Dental sisters, Ariana and Victoria Samson, and the last time I spoke to them, they were both associates working in lots of different practices, and now I’ve come to visit their brand new practice in Mayfair, which is called the Health Society. Something different, and I wanted to catch up, see what the process was. You know how the trials and tribulations of opening a practice in Mayfair are. So I’ve got for now, I’ve got Victoria with me. How are you? Hello.

Hi. I’m good, thank you. Yeah.

It’s a beautiful practice. Thank you. I must have been to a thousand practices. Right. So I’ve seen a lot of different practices, and it’s really different. Colourful. Quite pink.

It’s a little bit. A little bit.

Pink, but a lot of art on the walls. And you can tell that, you know, it’s almost like you guys have been thinking about this for a long time. If you if you think about it, when, when, when did you know you were going to open your own practice from the get go, or when did the idea start?

I think for me, to be completely honest with you, it was quite late on. So my sister and my mom and kind of everyone else I think had this idea, we’re going to open this dental practice and they had all of these ideas, but for me, it was probably only in the last kind of year or two years that I thought, okay, yeah, this is happening. We’re opening our own clinic and it’s now I kind of thought always that I would open it maybe in 5 to 10 years time, to be honest with you, but then with, you know, everyone else wanting to open it and then also all of my patients pushing me kind of just meant that I went with kind of what everyone else said. And I’m I’m glad that we did it. But I think that patients really pushed and they really were like, you’re doing something very unique and special, and it’s a shame that you are not in your own clinic and you don’t have your own clinical freedom to do whatever you like. You should open your own place and just do whatever you like. So, yeah.

And so look, the process, a lot of dentists are going to go through this process of being an associate and moving to becoming a principal. How much of it did you already know and how much of it did you have to go and find out? And what about the the financial side, you know, getting loans and and saving up and all of that sort of thing. So talk me through that part of it. The pre pre starting anything pre even looking for for a site.

I think know as a dental student you’re taught to be a dentist. And the financial side the even opening a clinic the management all of that is not anything that you’re taught at university or even as an associate. So we had a tough time kind of having to learn all of that. And there’s also not like a manual or a person that you can just call up and ask, you know, for example, it’s not like you can just call them up and be like, hey, could you just help me a little bit and tell me, you know, what colour bin I should get? Or, you know, like it’s very difficult. Yeah. We were super lucky that we had a lot of amazing people to support us who are already practice owners. So they kind of would help us in terms of, okay, yeah, you need this water filtration system or, you know, you know, in your decon room you should have x, y, z. And that really helped. So I think having great mentors to support you is key and extremely important from the financial side of things. So originally we were going to get a loan and we were going to kind of do it the I guess traditional way, but it ended up that we were trying to get a loan out at probably the worst time imaginable, with everything to do with the pandemic and Covid and, you know, the housing crisis and then the living costs crisis and all of this, that our interest rate was just ridiculous. It was it was yeah. It wouldn’t have made sense to open a clinic. So we ended up actually just using all our savings up and just really it was completely self paid for. And I think that is a testament to how much we thought, like how much we wanted it and the risk that we put in, because everyone has always said, when you open your own business, you should never use all of your own money. But we were like, look, it’s either that or, you know, a 20% interest rate, which we’re not going to do. So yeah.

But that’s a hard thing to do, right? Because if you’re the kind of person who, you know, works diligently and saves diligently and then and then, you know, that sort of nest, nest egg, it’s kind of like a buffer that for a rainy day, and then you’ve gone and spent the whole lot. On a dental practice. Were you scared?

I think you know what? I wasn’t scared for a really long time. Throughout the whole construction side of things, I was. And I think I was in a bit of fight or flight mode of just, like getting it done. Getting it done. I didn’t care. And then it hit me quite late on like a month or two before we were opening, where I was like, oh my God, like, what if no one comes? Yeah, shit. Like, what happens if, you know, we can’t hire any staff? And what happens if no patient ever wants to come and see us or okay, they come for their first appointment, but they don’t come for their, you know, six month check-up because they didn’t like the service that they received. And that’s where I think I was terrified. But I think that when you have a goal and you know that what you’re doing is special and different and that you’re bringing something new to the market and you really believe in it, then that fear is kind of secondary. Like it’s kind of, okay, fine, you will be scared. I think for me in particular, because I’m quite young, I kind of I see a lot of my friends and I see a lot of other people who are maybe my age and they’re using their money to go on holiday and they are travelling and they’re, you know, buying a car and they’re, you know, and so it was weird for me to put that money away into something more substantial and open a business with it. No regrets, but it was just a bit of a different did you need someone.

To push you over an edge? Did someone have to say, hey, look, go for it.

Yeah. My mom. Yes. And my.

Sister.

And like I said, all my patients, they just kept on saying it and saying it. And that’s also what gave me that safety net of saying, okay, like if we open a clinic, I have at least, you know, 100 patients who are going to follow me. Social media helped as well. And I knew that, okay, our concept is unique.

And, you know, you told me that you don’t you didn’t use the traditional dental fitout. People did that come with its own problems because they didn’t understand, you know, suction and all of that.

Yeah.

So why didn’t you use traditional dental? Because you didn’t want it to look like a traditional dental practice?

Partly, yes. Because also. So when we were we originally did approach lots of traditional dental fitout companies, and the designs that they were creating for us were pretty much, you know, copy and paste of the other 20 clinics that we’d visited. And we wanted something completely unique and different. That was one problem. The second problem was that we found that it was very expensive. And for a completely self-funded project with no investment, we quite honestly didn’t want to spend that much money. And we were there were a lot of times where we still continued with with a company, but it was just getting a bit ridiculous where we felt like we weren’t getting value, value for our money. Every time we would make a change, it would be an extra couple of thousand pounds on our bill, and it got to a point where we were like, we have no freedom.

So we started out with a traditional company and then changed.

And then we changed and we decided, actually, you know what? Let’s get some prices from some just normal construction teams, builders. And it was, you know, a fraction of the price. We had a lot more freedom. I work with a lot of companies like as a, you know, advisor or ambassador or whatever. They were super supportive. And so we ended up just kind of creating our own relationships with companies. We were our own project managers. So we never had.

A were you here every.

Day, every day before work. And I was still working full time. So before work I was here 7 a.m. I would go to work for nine, then I would come during my lunch time, and then I would come after work as well. And we were between the three of us. There was always someone on site, but we were, yeah, we were going crazy like we were working ridiculous hours.

Have you ever project managed any building work of any type? No. House? Nothing?

No no.

No, literally this is the first we’ve.

Ever done. Yeah. So we and we what surprised you the most? Um, it was actually phenomenal to see what’s behind walls. And I was obsessed with plumbing. I thought the plumbing was mind blowing and so interesting. So I got really into that. Um, I think that also just how many different jobs and things need to be done, particularly for dental practice, because the construction team that we chose, they had never plumbed for a dental practice. So we had to, you know, use like we had to kind of help with them and we had to kind of decide on things together. And it worked out. But I mean, it could have gone terribly wrong, probably.

And the logo is everywhere. Yes. And I like that, you know, that’s what that’s the whole point of a logo is that that’s what. But you’ve done a really special thing that I’ve never seen before, where you’ve actually recessed the logo in lighting on the ceiling. Yeah. Whose idea was that?

It was mine, actually. So it was with my. So one of my kind of mentors or the people who helped us with this practice is my boss from one of my other practices. And I went up to him straight up and I said, look, I want to open my own. He was like, yeah, I mean, it’s about time. I thought you were going to open it last year anyway. So he was super supportive and he helped a lot because his was a squat practice and he together we decided that what would be really cool is to have the logo in the ceiling recessed with LED strip lights. And so we actually measured the wattage, the Kelvin, because there’s a specific amount of lighting that a dentist or any, you know. Um.

But my question is, look, it’s a straight line logo. Yeah. So did you get a bunch of straight line LEDs and put them together? Or if it was a round, curvy thing, you would you could have done it too.

No. We got so this is the first time in my life I ever used Pythagoras finally came in, finally came in to use one of my builders. And I were sitting there and I was like a squared plus b squared equals c squared three.

Four, five.

So it’s lots of lots of straight lines that we combine together. And we just cut loads of LED strips up and put them together. So God forbid we ever have to replace those lights. That’s a whole other issue.

And the name the Health Society and now visiting it, I kind of understand it a bit more because there’s a gym area, there’s a sauna, infrared sauna area, but also your work. And we discussed this on the on the previous episode is a lot to do with functional dentistry. The whole body sort of holistically looking at, you know, systemic disease and the effect of that on the mouth and vice versa, which is a really interesting part of it. And you showed me just now a machine that sort of gives you a score of collagen breakdown and that kind of tells you how active is gum disease. Yeah. You think, shouldn’t every single dental practice have that machine? I mean, it really is a really important machine to have, isn’t it? If you can give a score, how accurate is it? You know.

It’s extremely accurate. So yeah. So we have lots of different tests that we do here. So we do one which measures your collagen breakdown to assess your basically gum disease from a bio molecular level. So we know that often gum disease is happening six months before clinical symptoms are appear in the mouth. So this is finding that and being able to flag that patient before they start getting, you know, pocketing and bone loss and being able to say, okay, let’s reverse this before it becomes a problem. And it’s as.

Simple as like a little mouth rinse and spit into the thing and put it in the machine.

So now what’s the name of that machine? So it’s for Ampa is the enzyme and the we just call it the Ampa test. So the enzyme is activated matrix metalloproteinase eight. And it’s the enzyme that is for collagen breakdown. And then we do the bacteria testing. We look at your saliva pH as well.

What does that involve.

Saliva test as well. So it’s a spit test. And then we send it off to the lab. And then we look at all of the bacteria in your saliva and fungi as well. So we can see if you have any candidal infections. And then based on that, usually in combination with the other saliva tests that we do, we create a personalised oral hygiene plan. So it will tell you exactly what mouthwash is good for your microbiome. What toothpaste? Toothbrush. If you have gum disease, what is causing that gum disease? Which bacteria? So then if we need to give you antibiotics which ones. So it’s a lot more specific and personalised for the patient. But also but.

Explain it to me. You get back a list of bacteria names and how much of it there is in the mouth. And so I guess the gram negative ones are the ones causing the problem. So when you say you bespoke the antimicrobial to that, how do you do that? How does that work?

So it depends on not only which bacteria are present, but how you know, the patterns and the amount of bacteria as well as what is visible clinically because everyone’s microbiomes are slightly different. So what might be terrible in my mouth might be really good in your mouth. Oh, really? Yeah. So you really have to pair everything together even. It’s not just, you know, gram negative, gram positive or anaerobic aerobic. There’s a lot more that you can, you know, you can use for those bacteria. So it could be that we use specific sprays. Gels again mouthwashes I love mouthwashes a lot actually for what we really take pride in is we’ve got a fantastic recovery for full mouth disinfection and periodontal patients. So patients who are suffering from really bad perio by having more of a focussed approach and knowing exactly what’s causing their their periodontal disease, then we’re able to actually treat it properly and we’ve had fantastic results using that. And we can measure and monitor that with the collagen breakdown test. So it’s it’s not only solving the problem, but it’s monitoring and maintaining that patient, which is really the core of our practice.

And just give us an idea because this is so new that. People want to know what’s the cost to the patient of each of those? The collagen tests. The the microbiome tests.

So at the moment, we’re actually the hygienist. I’m trying to push the hygienist to do a lot of the testing. And so if it’s about £2,025 for a collagen breakdown test, the oral microbiome test by itself is £250 that we charge. But that doesn’t include the analysis. And then it depends on what treatments are needed. You know, if you need full mouth disinfection, if you need, I don’t know. Whatever it is. I would like to think that I’m trying to find a price point which is affordable to a lot of patients. And yes, you know, I’m not saying it’s cheap, but at the end of the day, the amount of time that I spend on creating those treatment plans, each patient is probably 40 minutes to an hour of additional planning for that person that we do charge for it, because the benefits that we’re seeing are superior.

I’ll tell you the truth, it’s actually cheaper than I thought it would be. Yeah, but I’m interested in this. Have you ever done a microbiome test scan and polish and another microbiome test? Yeah.

So we did so weirdly. So we did a study or a trial with EMS. I partnered with them and we did an oral microbiome test immediately before a hygiene, immediately after a hygiene three months later, immediately before and then immediately after as well. And we used their, their hygiene. So we use guided biofilm therapy. And what we found was that immediately after a hygiene, the oral bacteria was extremely elevated. And that’s because you basically spat it all out into a cup. But interestingly, with the guided biofilm therapy, because it uses it’s got an antibacterial component to it. So it uses erythritol. The erythritol was able to reduce the levels of the bad bacteria in the oral microbiome, not only short term but also long term as well.

So just for someone who doesn’t know what is guided biofilm therapy.

So it is a treatment that a company called EMS from Switzerland have created. It’s their solution for a hygiene treatment. So basically what you do is you use a plaque disclosing tablet, you paint the teeth with it, and that will show all of the areas of biofilm and plaque. And that guides you to removing the biofilm properly because, you know, most of the time we’re not actually removing a lot of the biofilm when we’re doing a hygiene with a normal ultrasonic or with a pzm. So this has like an air flow. So it’s like a proper spray. And that spray has been impregnated with erythritol, which is antibacterial. So that gets rid of all your biofilm, all the bacteria and your staining without damaging the teeth. And then we go over and around the teeth again with the PS on to remove any hard capulus or tartar. And it’s with warm water and it’s got like a no pain technology. So it really is a fantastic solution. It really is, in my opinion, a better alternative to a normal hydrogen treatment.

And so is that GPT is that marketed like that at dentists or do you market that at patients as well?

I think we’re in a bit of a unique situation where a lot of our patients are extremely tuned in, and they come to us knowing that they are going to get that kind of personalised and maybe heightened kind of treatment plan. Yeah. The elevated treatment. Yeah. So we do paint it out to them as saying, okay, this is going to reduce your bacterial load. This is going to be no pain technology. You know they’re very educated patients as you mention it specifically. Yeah. And they specifically come here because of that for EMS with general dentistry, I think their main angle is that it is a lot more comfortable. It’s a lot more effective for the dentist. To the hygienist, it’s much less pressure on their wrists and their hands. So if you’re a hygienist and you’re working, you know, back to back 12 hours a day, you can’t use a poison or an ultrasonic constantly because the vibrations can really hurt you. So the airflow really helps. But yeah, there’s more comfort. Our angle is more maybe science and improving outcomes.

So I know you have to go. You’ve got a patient waiting. But let me just finish off with a couple of other questions. What’s the Mayfair patient like compared to I mean, you’ve worked in Harley Street and and and other places, right? Yeah. What’s what’s this patient like. Are they are they more picky? Are they more, you know, do they miss appointments or do they what are they like. No.

So, you know, the thing is, is although we’re in Mayfair, a lot of our patients travel from all around, actually the world. I had a patient from Chicago last week, another one from Berlin from LA. Like they actually are flying in for treatment. And so it’s difficult to say what the. Mayfair patient is like. But from the few who do share the same postcode as us. Because I do analyse being like, oh, you’re a resident, you’re cool.

We all do. We all like.

How exciting, you’re local. They are actually very. They are on time. They don’t miss their appointments.

Because they’re abroad a.

Lot. They are abroad a lot. That’s one thing, is that a lot of them will mean booking appointments for them is quite complicated. It’s not so easy. And a lot of because they travel and all that, but generally they’re pretty switched on patients. I think the patients we generally are attracting are ones who are into optimising their health. And as a result, sometimes you can get some patients who are quite difficult because they think they know better than you, or they’re a little bit more kind of, you know, take out all my root canal treated tea, take out all of my implants, you know, and you can go down quite a rabbit hole of very kind of aggressive or excessive dentistry. But generally I think we we’re doing a good job in, in kind of attracting the right types of patients that we want.

What do you do in that situation? Just somehow not do it? Yeah.

Yeah. I think that I’m. It’s annoying because I think I’m maybe more holistic or functional than your conventional dentist. You know, I believe that mouth is really connected to the rest of your body and all of that. But, you know, I still do root canals. I still believe in titanium implants. I’m still very much a normal dentist. And so what I really try is to convince those patients and explain to them the research. And I’m very research heavy, so I will explain all of it. And if they still decide, you know, actually I really want all my root canal treated teeth to be taken out. And they’ve had a cbct, for example, and there’s a sign of an infection. Fine. We can take it out if there’s no sign of an infection. And they’re still really, really want to have the teeth taken out, then I tell them to go somewhere else because it’s not worth it’s not worth my stress, really. And, you know, we all have our morals and our beliefs. And I’m not going to, you know, change them because compromise them. No. Yeah.

You’re also a DJ.

Yes.

And you were just telling me how you take control of the music in the whole practice. Yes. Is there going to be an element of a DJ deck and actually literally playing decks? Yes. I can totally see it happening in front.

Of the light.

Yeah, yeah, the pink light.

Yeah, yeah, I want to. I’ve actually had quite an idea I haven’t come I haven’t done much about the idea, but I want to do like a boiler room set in front of the light invite, like, you know, 20 people, not too big. Do like an hour and a half set. Film it. And for all of you who don’t know what a Boiler Room set is, it’s basically like a DJ set. And usually they’re in quite interesting locations. Yeah. And you invite like a very small group of people and they just vibe and they just enjoy themselves. And I thought, you know, I haven’t seen a boiler room set in a dental practice. So it’s on the to do list.

On the list of how do I make it different. So look, how do you see the future? Do you do you see it as some people have this sort of idea of one perfect place and you never get to perfection, so you’re constantly improving, constantly improving. I can tell you, after 23 years in business, we’re constantly having to improve everything. You know, it’s one of those things. Or do you see it as a scalable thing where you can have one of these in each town, or what are you thinking? Or is it too early?

I think I think it’s a bit too early to say. I can tell you from for me personally, and that I think it is relatively scalable. And I think that for the premise of our practice, or from the dental side of things at least, is prevention is key, regular appointments is key, and particularly guided biofilm therapy or hygiene every 3 to 4 months is what I recommend for that. It means that you need patients who are coming in all the time, and for one clinic which has 3 or 4 surgeries, that’s not, you know, and you build enough of a patient base after a year or two, it’s not going to work. So my idea is that we would maybe expand or scale this up so that you can have treatments done elsewhere, and we would still know about it in your like kind of core practice or whatnot. I don’t know, that’s kind of my idea at the moment, but I think that because we’re so hygiene heavy, we either need to have lots of hygiene rooms or we need to expand.

I think in the end, if you’re going to expand, you have to take yourselves out of it somehow. Yeah. And it’s so linked to yourselves right now that it seems ridiculous. It seems such a unbelievable thing. But you’re literally inventing the protocols around oral microbiome. You’re the one that’s sort of the tip of the spear of all of this. And so it’s quite a responsibility as well. But it’s something you need to get done. Right. You need to get you need to say, look, these are the protocols for someone who knows very little about it. Of course you’re going to train people. Yeah. These are the protocols. Yeah.

That’s what I think. For me, it’s not even scaling the clinic. It would be actually creating these protocols, teaching other, spreading the word to use it and for them to do it on their own patients. I think that’s my next step. It’s just that at the moment it’s been a struggle. You know, it’s early days, it’s early days. We’ve just opened and I keep on getting people messaging me, being like, hey, teach me how to do microbiome testing. I’m like, I’d love to, but I’m working, you know, six days, 9 to 7 pretty much every day. And I’m clinically full time and I’m owning a practice right now. So I’m trying to kind of readjust. And I think eventually in the next few months I will have time to do that, but not yet.

Okay. Well, I’m really, really proud of you. I mean, it’s so nice. It’s nice to see you get this far. I remember back thinking back to the early days of. Enlightened how much pain was involved. Maybe. Hopefully you’re not going to go through as much pain as I went through. But, you know, even the simplest thing, I was just looking at the door, just the sign on the door saying private. Yeah, someone’s going to find that sign. Someone’s going to stick that sign up.

It’s funny you say that Marianne got them from America.

Is that right?

She literally. When she went to America, she was there for a wedding. But she shipped the these toilet signs.

To her friend.

In LA, and then she picked them up from there because it was impossible to find the right sign, which was pretty, which wasn’t.

Right.

Which was right, which wasn’t too ugly. Like, you’re right, every single thing that now. And that’s one thing actually, you were saying, what have you learnt from your building kind of experience was now whenever I go anywhere I’m like paying attention to my access panel. Oh, look at that plumbing. Like I’ve become such a weirdo. I become obsessed with all this weird construction stuff and ventilation.

It’s so good to see you succeeding, and it’s nice to see you working with your sister and your mum, so hopefully it continues. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

Well, Victoria has gone to see her patient and now I’ve got Arianne with me. Arianne I was I was talking to Victoria about the process of going from associate to principal and, and your situation’s sort of special, right? You’re a specialist orthodontist. You’re now having to take care of referrals to you rather than referrals to another practice where you work at. Yeah. Are you having to work at that or is that just flowing organically?

I feel like it’s a combination of the two. It’s flowing organically and I have a nice referral stream from Victoria and also from our hygienists here, and it’s because we’re we’re focusing on holistic dentistry and preventive dentistry. A lot of our hygienists play a really important role in referral to orthodontics, because it’s part of better dental cleaning to be to have straight teeth in order to get the interdental brushes through and things like that. So I get a lot of organic referrals just in house, even though we’re very new in terms of our external, in terms of external referrals, they’re still coming through. Even though I’m in a new location or offering a new location. And I think that’s just because of location convenience, but also because they trust the treatment that I’m providing. I’ve been taking on their referrals for a few years and producing what I hope are good results, because they keep referring patients back to me. So it’s been it’s been good. I do find it a little bit difficult sometimes to navigate getting referrals from general dentists who maybe feel uncomfortable referring their patients to a specialist orthodontist who is in a general dental clinic for fear of losing the patient to the general dentist there. And I completely understand that. So I am very careful to say to the patient that, listen, you’ve been referred to me for orthodontic treatment and I will provide that orthodontic treatment for you, but you will be referred back to that referring general dentist. So I am very mindful of, of the situation that that patient and that referring dentist is in.

So look, you’re we’re in a practice called the health society. Your is doing all of the microbiome stuff. You’re telling me that there’s a link between health and ortho. Yes. Because it’s easier to brush your teeth or I don’t know, it could be a traumatic bite or something. But mindset wise, as an orthodontist, if you not always thought of it as a cosmetic benefit rather than a health benefit.

Not really. I think a lot of people think orthodontics is just a cosmetic thing, and I think if that were truly the case, we wouldn’t have had it offered on the NHS for so long. It’s still offered on the NHS. I think there are very profound health benefits to orthodontic treatment. So you mentioned the traumatic bite. There’s that and in doing so will prevent where will prevent periodontal disease, will prevent collapse of the facial skeleton because it reduces the vertical dimensions over time. So we prevent all of those things. But I think also in terms of anterior open bites and poor poor lip seal, you have mouth breathers. And with mouth breathing you have snoring. It can put you at increased risk of sleep apnoea. And with Victoria we can see also an imbalanced oral microbiome. And so the orthodontics. Plays a big role in terms of rebalancing the microbiome and therefore improving the general health and wellbeing. So I take that responsibility pretty seriously. And then there are also links with the tongue, the lingual frenum, the swallow pattern, the I don’t.

Want to push back too much, but let’s imagine there were no aesthetic benefits whatsoever.

Yeah.

Would you still risk all the risks that come with orthodontics for the benefits that you’re talking about?

I think so, yeah, yeah, for sure. I wouldn’t have done it if I thought it was purely aesthetic.

No, no. But my question, my question if, let’s say there were no aesthetic benefits, said there was this new treatment that would reduce your microbiome, that would maybe sort out your bite a little bit, but comes with all the risks of orthodontics, which we can list them if we like. Right.

Would I still I still would be a strong supporter of Orthodoxy. So for sure there’s definitely a place and I think I think at the end of the day, we need our teeth and mouths and facial skeleton to.

I remember when I took my 14 year old for ortho, I wasn’t thinking about his oral microbiome.

You were.

But what you.

But what you’ve done is really helped out with.

It. Yeah, yeah. You’re right.

I also think, you know, and I take this really seriously and there’s, there’s weird inconclusive data about it, but they say that if you’ve had orthodontic treatment and your teeth are are straighter and you feel more comfortable with your bite. So, yeah, there’s the cosmetic, but there’s also the comfort. It’ll improve your confidence. And those kids with the improved confidence have better dating partners, have better job prospects and better longevity. And like literally longevity as in living longer. And I don’t mean to blow my own horn too much, but I do feel like I’m playing a part in this 14 year old’s orthodontic treatment. When they’re 34, they might get a slightly better partner because of a better job.

Well, the aesthetic.

Benefits are.

Profound. Yeah.

So the reason maybe I’ve got a bugbear about this is because sometimes dentists have such trouble talking about whitening, right. Because they see it as cosmetic and all that, and then they have no trouble at all talking about ortho, I see, because and in my view, you know, for most I mean, we’re sitting in a health society, but for most dentists, the benefits that they’re providing from ortho is maybe 90% of the benefit. The health benefit is 10%. But the reason why they like to talk about it is because we were taught to talk about it. Yeah. And we weren’t taught to talk about whitening. And by the way, whitening has a bunch of benefits too, right? It has. We just learned microbiome benefits. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s good for the gums and all that. But you know, maybe that’s my bugbear. Maybe maybe that’s where I’m going with that. Tell me about the process of opening a practice. The question I’m really asking though is like, what are the how long ago did you envisage this?

I when I was in dental school, as in studying dentistry, not orthodontics? Yeah, I remember we had to write a career plan. So a five year career plan and a ten year career plan. And I had option A and option B, and I don’t know why I had it this way, but option A was go down the specialist pathway and become a specialist orthodontist and work as an orthodontist. Path B was open your own dental clinic and my timescales were totally warped. I thought that I would be a specialist orthodontist within five years of graduating dental school, which is not possible. And then. Or that I’d have a clinic within within like a couple of years of graduating. I think that seed was planted in my head from our mom. She has such an entrepreneurial spirit, and so I always had it in my head that, okay, from dentistry, I want to be my own boss and this is the path to doing that. So that seed was planted very, very early on. I went down the pathway of specialist orthodontics, and when my sister was a dentist, it kind of made a lot of sense for us to work together. We happened to be working together in a clinic, both as associates, and we were cross referring a lot to each other within that clinic, and we saw that we were working really well together. And also as sisters, we know each other pretty well, and our values and our goals are very much aligned. And so for us, the prospect of working together was a no brainer. We’re in the same industry, so why not open a clinic?

But when I look at this, it’s so interesting because it’s very, very, very on brand compared to your Instagram pages. The art. Yeah. The what’s your page called? Dental Dental sisters and sisters. And it’s weird. Is usually you have a practice and then you have the Instagram page of the practice that’s supposed to reflect it. But your your Instagram page for Dental sister started years ago.

That actually started. We had a totally different name for it and we kept it very anonymous and it was more like fun images to do with dentistry to kind of break down the barrier of how scary dentistry could be. And so that’s how it started. We didn’t even have like our names or our faces to it. Then we announced ourselves as the dental sisters, and it was kind of just a fun thing to be able to, to make dentists seem more accessible and approachable. And I think that was helpful to do it that way around, because people liked us for our personalities as dentists and maybe shared in our humour when we posted like fun things about dentistry or shared in some of the research that we were putting out there also. And so we already had a little bit of that following before we got the clinic. I think when you open an Instagram page for a clinic, it’s tends to be pretty boring and a lot of people don’t really want to be following things like that. So doing it the other way around was helpful. And I think actually, to be honest, because we always intended to open a clinic, we we probably had that.

It was a good move.

Yeah, we probably had that in the back of our minds just to be ready.

So who is the.

Outlier amongst you because or are you all because, you know, there’s you can see there’s, there’s a, there’s an obvious move to for it to be different.

Yeah. I think it’s all three of us in a slightly different way. So I think for Victoria, clinically she’s the outlier because she’s doing a lot of clinical things that are not traditional dentistry. So that’s her for me. I think I have a huge focus on art. I think if I was not in dentistry, I would have been working in art if not being an artist. And so that was a really big focus for me in terms of just the design of the practice and making sure that we have our exhibitions and things like that. And then our mom, who’s involved, she’s the outlier because she’s bringing in that fresh, non Dental perspective on it. And so all three of us are outliers in different ways.

So do you.

Find sometimes your mom, because she’s not of dentistry, she’s not from dentistry. She’s sometimes pointing out something that you two never thought of.

Yeah, absolutely.

Give me some examples of that.

I think in terms of like people management or one of the things is Victoria and I just always call patients patients. It was it’s something that we always do. And to me calling somebody a patient is not implying that they’re sick. But for some people they feel that way. And our mom was like, why would you call them patients? Like if they’re coming in for maintenance, they’re not coming in for the treatment of a problem necessarily, like we should call them something different. And it’s just, you know, putting a new idea in our head. And I know some other people have thought that before within dentistry, but it was definitely food for thought and something that we we took on, which was interesting.

What else?

Um, I think also in terms of the practice design. I’m trying to think no, because in the end, I got my way. She didn’t want mirrors in the.

Dental surgery because.

She was like, oh, one wants to see those. So I was like, no, no, no mirror. So actually she.

Had that wrong.

Yeah, yeah. In the end I got my way with that. But I’m trying to think what else has.

She been approaching.

Businesses.

Outside. Yeah.

So in terms of.

Dentist find.

Really hard.

Yeah. At the end of the day we’re taught to be dentists. We’re not going to be good at everything. We’re not going to be necessarily good at marketing, good at all these things. And it’s the problem with dentists is they have to wear so many hats, and we have to accept that we can’t wear that many hats. So our mom has been really good with marketing. She comes from a marketing background, and so she’s approaching non-traditional audiences to help out business and so like local businesses and working with them. And that’s been really, really fruitful.

So your sister was telling me that rather than going for bank loans, you put everything you had in.

Yeah.

Tell me about like, the fear factor. How much how scared were you when you decided to do that? And how about from day one, you opened the place and there’s no patience, right? For me. I’ve never opened a dental practice, but for me, that would be the sort of the weirdness of, like, where do these patients come from? I mean.

Yeah.

It’s scary. It’s really scary. From the financial perspective. I think that that was probably the scariest, because I was sitting in earning money and then putting it straight into this. And so I think made money and then go to zero, make money in the good of zero. So so that is really scary. But I trusted the combination of the three of us enough to be able to trust the process. And I’ve spoken. I’ve spoken to so many dentists that we know who have done this in the past, and they all went through that fear. They all started from zero patients, and they all said it was going to be a massive challenge. They helped.

So specifically, you sought out dentists who had done squat practices?

Yes. Yeah.

How many did you talk to?

I think I spoke to, I probably spoke to like briefly spoke to like ten. But there were three in particular who I spoke with at length.

Throughout the process.

Yeah, yeah. And then so there was like one standout dentist who really helped us from start to finish.

Shout, shout him out.

Farid Muneeb shout out to Farid wannabe.

He’s also been a guest on this. Yeah.

Who’s help was was unbelievable throughout the process and really reassuring in terms of.

Sometimes.

What you need isn’t it? Yeah, simply that and it’s not.

Just being like, you’ll be fine, you’ll be fine. It’s like, you know what? This is really hard. This is a massive challenge. And like, you’re you’ll be prepared for it. So I think I really value that. And he had some really good tips and tricks and things like that.

And so what was the biggest mistake you made?

The biggest mistake I made.

What were you yourself you guys?

What would you have done differently?

Actually, one of the things was choosing our building and architectural team. We were told by a lot of people that we should go for a dental architect and a dental building team because they know the ins and outs of dental chairs and plumbing, etcetera, better. And I would agree that they do. And we inquired with a lot of them. And I found in the end we were wasting a lot of time entertaining them. When we eventually went with a non dental architect and non dental builders, we were recommended to use this building team by an art gallery. And so for them it was a big learning curve. They had never done a dental clinic before, they had never installed dental chairs. But it worked out really, really well. And I think again, it brought that freshness.

To this where Farid was involved saying, look, you need plumbing and piping and air. And I mean, did you know anything about this?

No, we learned so much about it. And that’s where. Yeah. So Farid came in and was like, where’s your compressor going to go? Because the building team didn’t know. Yeah. So that was that was really helpful. And. So I don’t regret. I regret wasting time with these Dental companies, to be honest, because I thought that. Um, I don’t know. The experience wasn’t too great with them.

I mean, building.

Like, sets up like that. In fact, it ends up like that every time. No one’s happy with their builders in the end. But you said. You said with the final team, you were quite happy. We were.

Really happy. I was really happy.

To hear that.

Yeah, I would use them again in a heartbeat. And I’d recommend them to anyone.

Yeah, I’ll get their number for good builders like Gold Plus.

Yeah.

So look, I asked your sister this. I’d be interested to see what you say. Look into the future. Where do you see this going? Some people have this idea of one perfect location, and I totally get that right, because perfection is so hard to get to. I mean, you never get to perfection, right? So you constantly improve, constantly improve, constantly improve. Some people say, no, I’m going to scale the idea, and I’m going to have several different locations where I’m not at, and I’m going to train people to work the way that I work. And and some people, they get even one level further and say, I’m just going to train the market. I’m going to become an educator. I mean, you’re definitely doing something new here. You know, the link, the link between author and microbiome in itself. Right? But then the testing, the health part of it, the gym and so forth.

What do you reckon? I think I’m.

In that second camp, so I definitely want expansion. I feel like this would be a sort of flagship site, and then we’d have smaller spoke sites for our patients to, to visit that are closer to their, to them. We have a lot of patients who travel from far to get to us here actually. And yeah, I think it would be great to scale and then expand in that way. That’s that’s what I see in the future.

I mean, it’s.

Very early days to ask this question. Yeah, yeah, I get that. I do get that. So let’s imagine three years time this this model is very room heavy. Right. It’s very hygienist heavy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Three is time. There’s absolutely no capacity left in this building. God willing then are we are you thinking literally replicate this in other locations?

I think I’d replicate the hygiene in other locations. And then this is our Dental flagship.

Oh, yeah.

And the salivary diagnostic flagship.

That’s interesting.

Yeah.

So then you have maintenance everywhere else.

But then. So we’re not saying there’ll be an orthodontist in every site. No.

I already travelled so much as it is, it doesn’t have for you know, I know, I know.

But no, I don’t think there’ll be an orthodontist at every site. The magic of orthodontics is that I only see my patients every couple of months over an extended period of time, but it means that your time commitment is not as much juice.

Dental monitoring.

No, I don’t actually. I know about them.

Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

And I’m looking at from the patient perspective I mean my my daughter’s going through it. Yeah. And she hardly sees her really. You know whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. The orthodontics compared to my son who didn’t have dental monitoring, who was going in once a month paying those parking things in Harley Street, totally different amounts of you can see as a, as a guesstimate. I reckon you can see 4 or 5 times the number of patients. Yeah. Because, you know, I’m sure her orthodontist is looking at something like looking at the scans or whatever it is. Yeah, but she’s visiting very little. I’m really surprised at how little she’s visited. Yeah. And, you know, it’s Invisalign and the teeth are kind of getting there.

I think it’s a great idea. I’ve but I’ve noticed with some of my patients they feel the need to come in and see someone.

But I’ve it’s headache though.

You know, once, once a month I want to turn up at the dentist.

Yeah, yeah I agree it’s a lot.

And it’s worked out really because I have patients who see me from from San Diego, from Zurich. Yeah, yeah. And it would make their lives a whole lot easier. My patient in Zurich flies in for his appointment and goes straight back on the plane to.

Zurich once a month.

Yeah, pretty much.

Once every six weeks or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s crazy. It’s crazy.

I mean, I’m honoured.

Did you tell them that there are some good orthodontists?

You did no harm at all.

So, look, you’re doing your clinical bit. Your sister is doing her clinical bit. What are the bits you’re doing around the actual running of the practice? What’s what’s the bit that you’ve grown into?

So I did a lot of the legal stuff. I did a lot of the contract things with our freeholder contracts with the companies that we work with. I did all the stuff, which was a huge, huge learning curve. Yeah, because you can.

To do it. Yeah.

But then I just worried that at the end of the day, we were going to be interviewed in person by the QC inspector. And so I might as well write all the policies myself. And then I can answer the questions better.

Orthodontist OCD sort of thing.

Probably. So.

So I did all this stuff.

But what about.

Now? Now in the running. Are you doing hiring?

Yeah. Hiring? No. Hiring is all three of us. We take, like, equal load with that.

I’m. I don’t know if you fired anyone yet, but it’d be interesting to see who the Fire Robo is going to be. Yeah, I think they will.

Be a well, I don’t want to take that. And then, like, in terms of, like, staff HR because it’s contracts. That’s me. I’m just the contract person. When I was applying to dental school, I was deliberating between dentistry and corporate law. And so I guess it’s fitting I can.

See it as a corporate lawyer, actually.

That’s right.

So I guess it’s fitting that.

I’m doing it’s one of those.

Weird sort of sliding door sort of moments. Right. Imagine you’d gone that route. Yeah. And I know some corporate lawyers are tough life. Yeah, tough, tough life. Not the orthodontist. Life is easy, right? But tough love. And so interesting. Right? Why do you end up. Why does one end up doing the things that they do? Sometimes comes down to something almost insignificant.

Yeah. For me, I couldn’t really think of what to do. My mom organised tons of work experience for me in dentistry and in law, and a bunch of other things, and the dental work experience I did with an orthodontist. So shout out to Siamak Bagheri and and then also with a general dentist. And I just thought it was less boring than law and that was it. It was literally just like, okay, I’ll do dentistry. It was a little bit less boring and that was it.

And but, you know, like in that moment.

If that day someone had come in for the lawyer and talked about something interesting. Yeah. You literally your life might have been completely different to what it is today.

Absolutely.

Interesting thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I know it’s not the same thing, but we were talking about this on holidays, right? Why is it some people want to go to Bali and some people want to go to Australia. Yeah. And when it comes down to it. Right. Yeah. You could have had a friend who’s been or you could have done a bunch of research. A lot of times it’s like, there’s no reason why Bali is this place that I want to see, you know, it’s just a thing in your head.

Yeah.

It means nothing.

Well, that’s what you know.

The. Who’s that magician? Is it David? No. Not David.

Oh, Blaine. Blaine.

No, the other the the ginger guy, what’s his name? And he puts, like, subliminal messages all around.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. To the to the performance. So it’s kind of like that but like the. Yeah. Yeah you’re right, you’re right.

So yeah, maybe the subliminal. Maybe your mom’s been putting orthodontists into your head since I’m.

Six years old.

Yeah. How does it work with me? I’ve tried.

It with my kids.

First. Not yet.

I’ve heard subliminal.

Messages were just to do dentistry. And then when I was a dentist, I was like, I’m going to do ortho. And she was like, what? Why? Dentistry is fine.

No, no, no.

You clearly love it, though.

Oh, I love it.

I really didn’t like general dentistry, if I’m honest. I think if I had remained a general dentist, I probably would have quit by now. Really? I really disliked it. The only thing.

You dislike so much.

I think. To be very honest with you, there were elements of dentistry that I didn’t feel like I was good at, and I’d sit and I’d do a filling or whatever it may have been, or veneers or whatever. The patient would have been fine. But I was looking at it and thinking, if somebody had done this to me, I wouldn’t have been. I wouldn’t want me doing dentistry on myself. And that really upset me. And then I did Max facts.

And I was honest with yourself. Yeah.

And I was doing Max. Max and I was taking teeth out and I was like, I would allow myself to take out my own tooth. So I was like, this is the feeling that I want. I want to be able to trust myself to do it on myself. So after that, I was like, okay, I like oral surgery and orthodontics and that was it. So I would do orthodontics on myself.

And I remember in our last podcast, you were going to actually do medicine and Max, Max and all of that. Yeah, yeah. And at the last minute you just decided, yeah, sanity went over.

I’ll stick stick to the original original plan. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it’s been so amazing to come and see this place.

I’m so glad you’re in the flesh.

And I’m really proud of both of you. You know, even to even just. We were just talking about, you know, the toilet signs, which I hear you got from LA.

Yeah.

So even something as simple as that compared to, like, you know, manifesting this whole place. Yeah.

By the way, how.

Hard was it to find it.

To find the location.

Location?

How long did you look.

Oh, so we we started looking maybe a year before we even found, we found the place not even started building, and it was just kind of on the back burner. I was on all of the websites to get notifications on new properties in the area.

I put websites on it.

Um, oh, there was some. Oh.

Was that shop, shop.

Property or something?

No, some. I remember calling it real LA. And then somebody was like, no, it’s real LA. So so it’s okay.

So you were getting a bunch of emails saying this shop’s come up.

Yeah. And they were.

Just because there was a change in the laws in terms of your.

D1 and all.

That. Exactly. So after that, suddenly everything was, was, could have been available to us. So I was getting all these notifications, I was seeing a lot of the properties and, and I liked Mayfair. I felt like there weren’t enough dentists in Mayfair.

And so then did you think.

I am going to go? I am going to have a practice in Mayfair. Like, were you only looking at Mayfair, or was it that this came up while you were looking in other areas as well?

I was looking like 90% in Mayfair.

Where else were you thinking Harley Street or no.

No, it’s so saturated. I didn’t I didn’t want to do that.

So you wanted a shop frontage sort of situation? Yeah. Retail kind of situation.

Yeah, exactly.

And then I come across this site and the agency that was advertising, it wasn’t answering any calls and wasn’t answering any emails. And I thought it was suspicious. That almost made me more hungry because it was like, normally people want to get rid of their place. And it had remained empty for at least a year. And so I contacted this guy called Guy who, who kind of does deals in, in real estate. And he was like, I’ll find out for you. And he got us a viewing. But it took me a really long time. He got us a viewing. I have no idea why they were so weird about showing this place to us, and we just absolutely fell in love with it.

And it was an art gallery. And you said there were no walls at all.

No walls. It was all totally open plan. They had one room downstairs, which was their staff room, and that was it. And which is perfect because it means we don’t have to knock anything down. All we have to do is erect the walls.

And it’s cool because it’s.

Kind of a blank canvas, isn’t it, that you can.

Exactly.

You can literally make your own mark on.

Yeah, exactly. And they had all of the wall hanging mechanisms for when they were exhibiting for the art. And we have some and use the same ones of course.

And the place is full of art.

Yes, which is a.

Really big focus. So you mentioned that got the toilet signs from LA. Yeah, a lot of the art from LA to carrying in my suitcase.

Amazing. I’ll remember not to return your calls so that you get even more. Yes. To get in touch with me.

Thank you so much. Thank you for.

Giving us the time of your practice. I know you’re so busy, so amazing and good.

Luck with it. Thank you so much.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would give us a.

Six star rating.

Six star rating, that’s what always leave my Uber driver.

Thanks a lot, guys. Bye.

Don’t drive with the brakes on. And what I mean by that is don’t limit yourself with negative thinking or the fear of not knowing what you’re getting into or not. Not believing you can actually deliver on something or achieve something. I think it’s always better to do things and figure it out that way, because you’ll always regret the things that you don’t do as opposed to things that you do do and that go wrong. So I think having an action bias would be the first one.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Tani Kawakami onto the podcast. I was thinking Tani was our youngest guest, but actually episode 1 to 9. You didn’t get that that privilege today? No, no.

This is this is something that bothers me a little bit. Payman. We’ve known each other for a little while, and I remember saying to you in second year, I want to be a podcast. Yes, but second youngest will have to do. Adam.

That’s funny dude. Yeah. Adam Lawton that’s right. When you said it to me in your second year, I remember going back thinking, I can’t believe that guy asked me that question, but then. But then that imprinted it in my head. And then when I saw Adam, I was like, oh, Adam, you become a fourth year dental student. You had backfired. You wanted to be the record holder. But anyway, it’s it’s a massive pleasure to have you. Tani got a really interesting career so far, his very young career, and he’s just qualified dental school. And in his PhD year, he. When I met him at the end of his first year, I think Tani or beginning of second year when he was doing a sales role for Bryant Dental, and he’s been doing that throughout dental school and really a real feature on the on the dental circuit. You know, wherever you go, any conference, Tani is there. And I’ve always been so impressed with your sort of articulate sort of nature. You’re very good talker and and impressed is a funny one, but I’m not sure if I want to use the word impressed, but it’s a different word I want to use. Just like, you know, like in awe of how tactical you are. You’re very tactical person. Very, very, you know, there’s a lot there’s a lot of ambitious people, but ambition plus tactics, plus hard work. So killer combination. So Tani is actually a partner now in Bryant Dental there with Priam and Connor and some others, I guess. Right? Yes. And also now becoming a dentist, an actual dentist. So working in a dental practice for the first time. So it’s a really interesting career. Massive pleasure to have you, Modi. How are you?

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. I mean, Dental Leaders podcast. I’m not sure what I’ve done to warrant a spot here, but, um, I guess you’re running low on guests. They thought you’d scrape the barrel.

I think we both know what you did to get a place. All right, well, I’m quite interested. We we do this thing about childhood and all that, but actually, I just listened to you on a different podcast, and I can’t be bothered to hear that story again. I’m going to I’m going to summarise. I’m going to summarise it as, you know, you are sort of a sportsman in your childhood. Yeah. And you and your brother. Go on, go on, hit me with it. I do like to know how, what produces this kind of guy. But go on, give me the highlights of childhood.

I think you know, from from day one, my brother and I have always been very competitive. He’s two years younger than me, so very close in age, whether that’s academic, sports, everything. It was always, you know, head to head, neck and neck. He was slightly younger, so we always joked that I was the pacemaker and made a little bit easier for him. But that’s my excuse, I guess, for for what he’s done now he’s onto, you know, two very impressive things. But fundamentally, I think, you know, from from a young age, my parents instilled strong values. Dad was a very, very, very hard working. And that essentially became the baseline. That high work rate is is not necessarily something which impresses my parents. That’s just, you know, the average expectation from them. And then from my mother came bigger thinking. She spent a lot of her time as a child growing up in different areas in the world. Her father was a clinician who went from everywhere. His story, in fact, is exceptional. But don’t want to digress too much. But you know, she’s seen a lot of the world from a young age, and because of that, she’s had quite a bit of exposure to to a lot of things and tried to put it in our brains that whatever you want to go out and do is only, you know, a set of steps away. Nothing is out of reach. And at a young age, it’s hard to understand that and hard to really figure out what that really means. But as we’ve progressed through life, that’s served us quite well. That cocktail of, you know, working hard and then also, you know, seeing the bigger picture.

You’re both your parents doctors.

Yeah, both parents are doctors. Last few generations, actually in the family tree. Everyone’s been doctors. So I’m a dentist, I guess I’ve we’ve we’ve gone backwards. But my and my brothers in my brother’s in finance. So we’re the only two to break the mould. Even our cousins laterally are also going into medicine.

Were you thinking of being a doctor?

I was, yes, I was, I was very strongly considering it. Then I saw the lifestyle that my parents were living in the UK as doctors. Lots of long hours, late nights, etcetera, with very little output compared to the input that was being put in. And I thought that’s maybe not necessarily what I want to be doing. Finance was something I was also massively interested in and did some work experience, both hospitals and also in some funds in London, and I realised that dentistry is actually an amalgamation of both. If you decide to go down the business track, you get the clinical satisfaction that you do from providing great work for your patients. But at the same time, right from day one, if you want to day one out of dental school, you can start building your own, your own thing. And that is something which for me was very appealing and I wanted to be able to craft my career from, from day one, as opposed to go and work in a big corporate or spend X number of years working up the ladder in hospital.

So you’ve got your brother and he’s gone into finance, so you can see what would have kind of you’d be different, I guess, but you can see kind of the life he’s, he’s gone into. Is there a side of you that thinks maybe I should have gone that route?

Possibly. Possibly it is. It is something that we that we always think about. Grass is always greener, I guess, but I’m pretty happy with how things have panned out so far. There’s positives and negatives to everything with with dentistry, it’s great because you have flexibility. You can set your own calendar, you can set your own working week, and essentially you can do whatever you want to. Whereas if you’re in a in an institutional setup, then you have seniors to answer to and that’s that. But then I guess, you know, risk reward, pay off, etcetera can be can be different. But again, with dentistry that’s in your hands. And you can, you know, you can create whatever you want to create.

So is he working in a giant organisation?

He’s actually in his final year at LSC, but he’s been recruited by Blackstone, done his internship, etcetera, and been offered a spot there. So he’s he’s doing well. I think he was there was a stat somewhere. They took 164 analysts globally this year from 64,000 applications. So he’s done all right. He’s done all right.

Well well done. So okay. Tell me about when you were going to apply to dentistry. Where did you grow up?

Grew up in Birmingham. Grew up just just outside Birmingham in the in the countryside, a small town called Redditch, if you’ve heard of it.

Yeah. Did you, did you sort of on purpose choose London because of the big city?

Exactly that. I think there was two parts of my decision making process. Number one, Kings has the name, and I did a bit of shadowing in a hospital in India as well when I was building my application. And as soon as you mentioned, you know, I’m applying to Kings, everyone’s jaw dropped and they looked at you a certain way. So that was part of it. And then the second thing was I wanted to be in the big city. I enjoyed my visits to London. I enjoyed the pace of what the life appeared to be like, and I wanted to be in the mix. I think being at dental school in London is great because that’s where everything is happening. I mean, you have speakers from around the world, where do they come to in the UK? They come to London. So all of these extra exposures were on our on our doorstep and it made it very easy, as you mentioned, to come to these conferences and talks and events and lectures, which really broadens your thinking. And I think it’s good to to set that thermostat from from early on in your time at dental school. So it worked out quite nicely.

Were you not interested in that sort of the student life and being in a town where students are dominant?

Um, possibly. But I think London’s student circuit is also quite good. It’s maybe different. It’s not a campus based university, etcetera. But there is there is still a lot to do. I mean, I’d argue it’s really the greatest city in the world, and there’s always things going on. You have, you know, multiple universities within the same city. So you get to meet a lot of people. And I had a lot of fun.

I don’t know, dude. It’s a funny one because, you know, maybe I grew up in London. So so for me, it’d be that going out of London, you grew up somewhere else. So coming into London is is a thing and you’ve got to remember your, your you’ve been working since the first or second year. So your finance situation is not like your normal London Dental student. Sure. You know, and yeah, you’re right, London is the best in the world when you’ve got loads of money, but quite the opposite when you haven’t. But tell me then, were you when you were a kid, did you used to work as well? Did you used to have jobs? No, never.

Never at all. Actually, I never, never worked a job in my life, actually, prior to university. Um, so it was different, but I think I was quite lucky in that I always had a full plate. It was never just one thing going on. There were always lots of plates spinning from quite a young age, whether that was sports societies, etcetera, etcetera, every day of every week was always quite busy. Great for us, not great for our parents. They had to ferry us around all over the place, but it was useful because then you’re used to a certain level of activity all the time, and that filters into your time at university and then the working world, etcetera. Your baseline resilience tolerance is is pretty high, and I think that unlocks a lot.

I mean, your dental school experience, you know, I kind of got, you know, I speak to quite a lot of young dentists, kind of got an idea of it. But my dental school experience, I felt like there was lots and lots of stuff that wasn’t necessary was taught, and loads of stuff that is necessary wasn’t taught. Is that how you characterise it as well or do you not feel?

No, I would agree with that. I think of course the foundations are important, but there was a lot of um, yeah, I think you’re right. There was a lot covered, which didn’t need to be, which isn’t relevant clinically. You know, afterwards once you get into the real world. And there were holes in other areas. But again, I was very, very lucky because of my involvement with Bryant from the end of my first year, early second year, I was a rep on many, many postgraduate courses, etcetera. So I got to sit in the back of the room of all of these postgrad courses, and that was filtering in from, from day one. So I didn’t necessarily feel the holes because I was getting exposure elsewhere, possibly with some of my peers. Maybe that was the case. But, you know, that wasn’t my experience because of the situation. It’s worked out nicely for me.

But what aspects of it like because because I’m a long way away from it, it’s hard for me to pull it out. But you’ve just done it right. What aspects of it would you say you know that those bits were not necessary? It’s quite difficult, isn’t it, because there are people in your year who are going to go on and become, you know, oral medicine consultant? Sure. That that that guy needs some, some basic cellular stuff that they teach in dental school. And there’s another guy who’s going to go on and own 100 practices, and there’s another guy who’s going to go into community and teach. It’s difficult, you know, which bits, which bits do you think you could cut from your course to make way for the bits that they don’t cover, like, I don’t know, do they cover digital? Did you have scanners and things?

Yeah. I think when you put it like that, my answer previously was I think oriented towards what I wanted and what I needed. I agree that that is the dilemma because there are so many different career paths within the profession. It does make it extremely difficult to design a course. If it was an easy solution, every university would be doing it. In my opinion. It’s also difficult at King’s because you have a cohort size of 160, right? So even if you do decide, you know, to to implement whatever it is you want to implement, you have to do that for the whole cohort. And that’s a logistical challenge, I think maybe a bit more depth in, in, in some domains. So for example, occlusion I don’t think was taught very well at university at all. Our, you know, idea of occlusion was basically only for dentures and then for, for restorative work, it was okay. Patient bite down on a piece of articulating paper, remove the high spot. And that’s occlusion sorted. So that was maybe, you know, an area that was lacking. And I think inclusion is probably pretty fundamental to to all dentistry. Right. It’s the baseline which you need to crack for every case. So that would have been great to to sort out at university. But again, at the end of the day, I think universities are gearing you up to become a safe beginner and work on the NHS. Right? So single tooth dentistry really is the focus.

Yeah. Although it’s interesting because, you know, they taught us quite a lot of occlusion in Cardiff because there was a guy who’d written a book on occlusion who was one of the teachers, you know, so it’s weird. You kind of get kind of different. I remember going on and there was loads of people from King’s and from London, and they knew a lot more, for instance, about ortho than I did. Yeah. But I, I knew a lot more about occlusion and for instance, oral med than they did. So it’s interesting. But the thing is, the majority of people who go out into practice are not only going to be looking at fillings and crowns, which is kind of what they teach you fillings, crowns and endos. You know, you’re going to be looking at Invisalign, bleaching implants, scanning. Those things aren’t taught at all, right?

We had, we had a little bit of of work with scanners as, as the, as you progressed. But it wasn’t, you know, the core fundamentals of what we were doing. I think modern dentistry is progressed at a very quick rate, a very alarming rate almost, and it’s difficult to catch to keep up with that when you are in, you know, teaching within an institution where everything has to be approved, things move slowly.

Things move slowly.

Right? A hierarchy, etcetera. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it’s it’s fine. I mean, most of we’re in a vocation. At the end of the day, a learning starts when we leave university doesn’t necessarily end there. And I think we a lot of, a lot of us have that understanding. And we will spend a lot of time investing in our in our clinical journeys.

It’s important to talk about though, dude. Yeah. Because, you know, if people don’t talk about it then changes won’t come about. And, you know, it just legacy will be the thing. I mean, you know, I bet the amount of time you guys spent on full dentures was way more than the amount of time you’re going to spend with patients on full dentures, and then a whole lot of stuff the other way around. Right. Let’s get on to your first moment where you thought, Bryant Dental, I’m going to get a job. Was it was it I’m going to get a job or was it I’m going to get a job at Bryant Dental because and so did.

In fact, it was nothing to do about getting a job or getting or any kind of remuneration at all. I was in first year getting a little bit bored at university because you weren’t doing much dentistry. It was just biomed in a lecture theatre, etcetera, and I felt the pace was quite slow. I didn’t really feel excited or there was no big goal or ambition at that point in my life. And whenever I, whenever I’m in a situation like that, I feel quite uncomfortable. So I was I ended up looking around quite a bit at some of the trade shows and some of the companies that were out there, and I saw Bryant Dental was a young, up and coming, fast growing company, doing things very differently to what a lot of other companies were doing.

What are you talking about, dude? You were a first year dental student. You had no idea what other companies were doing or what Bryant Dental was doing. Your first year dental student no, I mean.

You get an understanding of you go to a trade show and you see people all, you know, everyone was what were.

You doing at a trade show? First year dental student.

Why not? Why not? I’m in London. It was it came up.

As an advertisement. There weren’t that many, right? There weren’t like many loads of you going to trade shows? No.

I was just curious, to be honest. Payman. I wanted to see what the profession was that I signed up for.

Amazing. Go on, go on, I like that, I like that. So you went to a trade show? Yeah, I went.

To a trade show, saw what was going on and thought, these guys are electric. There’s something different about them. I also then met VP Thomas Powell at a dental talk. He was the president at the time. Again, he was a dental student in a suit standing in front of a crowd of people delivering, you know, an introduction for whoever the speaker was that day, very eloquently. And I thought, this guy has got something different about him. He’s quite different to the normal dental student. So I spoke to him and he said, yeah, I’m involved with this company, Bryant Dental. And then, you know, one and two came together and I thought, excellent for me, essentially what I wanted to do, what I wanted out of that was I wanted to collapse my learning timeline. I thought, if I get involved with this company, I can get access to all of these courses for free as a representative, and I’ll get to meet a lot of clinicians face to face with loop sales, etcetera, etcetera. And that way I’ll be able to, you know, condense the time it takes for me to get from point A to point B. So my initial email to Connor and Brian was, look, I don’t want any form of payment at all. I think you guys are awesome. This is what I can see you guys are doing, and this is what I think I can add. Of course, everything that I could I said I could add, they would already be doing, but they liked the foresight. And, you know, the the opposite of inertia, the ercia, I guess, you know not not to be to be hurt. Guess they quite like that. So they brought me on board. And, you know, for me it all worked out quite nicely. But the goal was never, you know, I’m in London. I need to make money to survive. I had quite a generous student loan. The idea was really just to get as much exposure as I can as quickly as I can.

And Thomas Powell was the president. And then you later on became the president as well?

Yes, sir. Was the president three years after him?

He’s your hero. You’re doing everything he does.

Quite possibly. Hope he’s not listening to this. You’ll never let me never let me live that down.

So. All right. I’m still. I’m still. I still can’t get my head around it. I’m thinking back to my own first year. A whole different species to me. Man number one, the characterising undergrad that, you know, that biochemistry, physiology bit as boring and easy. I didn’t say.

Easy. I didn’t say easy, I said boring.

I didn’t do biology A-level. That made it all very, very, very interesting. But then number two to then go and go work for a company. But guess the Tom Hayes Powell thing was quite kind of serendipity something. All right. So so then you got there what did you do. What was what what happened. What did they I mean, they were they were recruiting students because Connor himself was a student when he set the whole thing up. And I spoke to Connor, I had a conversation with Connor when he was at your stage now in Vught, and I asked him, I advised him to leave dentistry. Yeah, because. Because I asked him a couple of questions about, I don’t know, numbers and number of employees and all that, and I realised this guy would be wasting his time in clinical. You know, he’s got he’s got a bigger fish to fry. And that was my advice leave clinical and I don’t give that advice very often at all. In fact I remember with Tom I didn’t give that advice. I advised against leaving clinical, but Connor had something going on and the two of them. So when you got there, there were already. Was it just you and Tom or was it other students?

Oh no, I was it was just Tom and I actually George. George was a student at Imperial. He was doing, I can’t remember what, his geology or something completely random, but I think Connor and Priam wanted people who were very similar to them in that young, hungry, ambitious, willing to work crazy hours because you’re motivated by things other than money and and lifestyle. Et cetera. You want to be part of building something. And yeah, I guess with youth comes exuberance. A little bit of naivety as well. But that’s can be a superpower and it all kind of fits together nicely at the time.

So then, then give me a sort of a snapshot of what you were getting up to, let’s say, when you got into the rhythm of loop sales, what was how was your time spent between university and seeing dentists, and what were you doing when you’re driving around the country? Is that what you were doing?

I don’t actually have a driving license payment, so I was carrying carrying this case around on trains and buses, a bit like Will Smith from Pursuit of Happiness. But it was. Yeah, it was, it was, it was fun. Essentially. We were all the leads that were coming through. They would be assigned to us from that point onwards. It’s, you know, every customer is our individual responsibility. So right from outreach to setting up the meeting to then exactly, as you mentioned, running around the country visiting probably three, 4 or 5 practices in a day throughout the week and on weekends as well, and then taking care of all the aftercare. So it was, you know, the standard sales role really just in between lectures and around exams etcetera.

Five a day.

Yeah, we try and because you control your own, your own calendar. Right. So if you’re going to Leicester I’d lump all of the Leicester leads together in one day. If you’re going to Birmingham, all of the Birmingham leads together in one day and and carry it out that way.

And how long would each visit be?

Each each loops meetings. About an hour, hour and a half lunch times or end of the day. The main thing was the travelling between them, really, because you’re all over the place. And I was covering London and the Midlands at the time, whilst in second and third year, which was pretty tough. But because we have we had online lectures, you could watch lectures at any point. So in the back of a cab or on a train or in the evenings, you could pop open the laptop and make sure you sit on top of it.

Because of Covid.

Even prior to Covid, it was online, but post Covid exams became online as well. So that helped me quite nicely as well.

But wait a minute. So. So when you say were all other students just sitting at home watching lectures on their computers?

Um, in first year, a lot of people came in, but I’m not sure how much attention or studying was actually being done in these lecture theatres. It was more of a social occasion. But then post-Covid, everyone was obviously at home, and since then I don’t think it’s really picked up. So most people are doing all of their lectures at home in the evenings or in their own time, and there’s maybe only ten, 15, 20 students coming to the lecture theatre, which is probably quite disgruntled for the lecturers themselves. But it is what it is, I guess.

And what what’s been the same lecture is being you can see it live, it’s being streamed.

So that’s how it was in first year. It was streamed and then also recorded. And you can watch it in your own time and post Covid. I believe most of them are being recorded and left that way. So they’re only filmed once and then left up. And obviously as and when they’re revised, that change is also reflected on the on the platform.

So. Okay. So give me a flavour of the week. So you’ve got patients to see at some point. So patients came pretty patients.

Patients came pretty late for us because of Covid naturally. So it was quite it was quite funny. We meant I was meant to be seeing my first patient on a Monday. And then we went into lockdown the Friday just before that. And then it was a year and a half, 18 months until I eventually started, saw that patient. So that was that was quite funny. But for us, I think my year hit the sweet spot because we didn’t miss too much clinical. We got a hands on end of third year and all we missed really was, you know, a bit of scaling in second year. And then for us in fourth and fifth year, they really went heavy on the clinical. So we made up for lost time.

But then did you stop selling loops in fourth and fifth year?

Fourth and fifth year I stopped selling loops and I said to to Priya and Connor, I want to be doing something else. You know, I think I’ve learnt all I can learn selling loops. Now let me take on another challenge. And I started working on the software company.

So let’s stick with loops for a second. Yeah. How would you characterise the whole Bryant experience as opposed to another experience? Because certainly like you said there’s certainly different. Right? The experience is different. I think one side of it is, you know products. Right. But there’s another side of it really is the service side. Well give me, give me put some put some salt and pepper on on my basic understanding of what I mean. I’ve been to the office. It’s lots of fun. Huge party areas. Loads of people working as well. How many employees is it there now?

I believe it’s about 80 now. Close to 80. Yeah. So quite a quite quite a big in the same site.

Some of them remote.

Some are remote, some are in other countries. We’ve got a set up in Australia now as well. And so yeah it’s overall I think headcount is about 80 reasonably reasonably sized. But to get back to your initial question about the salt and pepper things essentially, yeah. Yeah. We’re just trying to delight every customer. That’s really the idea we want to make. Every customer of loops feel like they have a concierge service. So you deal directly with us via WhatsApp. There’s no email channels, anything like there weren’t any email channels initially. As you scale, they need to be introduced, but you have a very 1 to 1 intimate experience with whoever it is that you’re meeting. And because we were such a small company, we are all at the heart of the thing. So you’re not speaking to someone who’s at a distance from what’s going on. We’re all in the thick of things. I think the great thing that that was indifferent about us is that we are all dentists or dentists in training ourselves, so we can understand what it is that you want. We understand what it is that you need and what the problems are that you face. And we’re perfectly positioned to be able to relate to you. And I think people really appreciated that. And there’s a level of playing field essentially, rather than them feeling like they’re being sold to. I think we were great because we could be very authentic, because we all, we all use these products ourselves before anything goes to market. We use it for six months ourselves, test it out, tried it out. So everything that’s coming from from our mouths is authentic. And people I think resonated with that.

But what was the training? I mean, you were a 20 year old kid.

No training really. It was just a case of following Connor around Tom around for a few days when they were meeting customers. And that’s it really product knowledge. You you do that in your own time and the rest of it is just being good with people. And I think at the end of the day, what we wanted at that point in time was I guess they were hiring for personality as opposed to skill set hiring for people with the right motivations, the right approach, and, you know, not just going through the motions or not doing things Transactionally you want to be part of building something and you have to buy in and the rest really can be learnt. If you have the soft skills, the rest of the things can be pieced together over time, and I think that’s the approach they took with me.

I feel like, you know, I did the transition from clinical to, to B2B to, to, you know, talking to dentists. And I found it much harder selling to dentists than to selling to patients. What do you think? You’ve you’ve kind of gone the other way, as you say that I would agree.

It’s I wouldn’t say more difficult. I’d say it’s different. I think with patience there’s a little bit more trust per se, in what it is that you’re saying. Because they see you as a doctor. You’ve trained for X number of years. Okay, you must know what you’re doing. But with dentists it’s different because dentists all understand intimately what it is that they’re, that they actually want from this thing. They have knowledge on it, they’ve done their research, etcetera. What really works well with dentists is being super confident in your product and knowing that the product that you are, you know, putting forward to them is actually best in class. And it’s quite reassuring when you have that behind you. But then secondly, just being completely open and, and, you know, being authentic and giving them the breakdown. They want to be slightly more technical, I think than than. Patience will be. Unless you have an engineer as a patient who’s going to start asking you about shear strength, etcetera. Dentists are slightly more analytical in that respect. So if you know what you’re talking about inside out and you can put across the value quite clearly, then it’s, you know, it’s not a transaction at all. It’s a no brainer. So it works quite well. I think that’s a privilege that we had because we knew the product that we are selling is best in class. And, you know, it works worked very well.

But you know, what I found with dentists is that, you know, there we are where they are. We are trained to be super critical and disbelieving. I mean, that’s that’s part of our training is is big bad companies are going to come along with products and none of them are going to be necessarily proved, and you need to get that out of them and so forth. Yeah. And you know, whichever way, different dentists are very different in the way they translate that into the questions they ask a sales person as well. But I always used to think, you know, having I must have gone to about the same number of practices that you probably went to a few more than me, actually, maybe because I stopped early, but but I went to hundreds of practices or thousands of practices, and I always found most of the interactions when when the guy himself wasn’t stressed were all very nice. Yeah, but I did find some interactions where, you know, the guy was trying to catch me out sort of thing. There’s plenty of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and you know, I was it was funny situation because I was a dentist, the owner of the company probably like maybe, you know, earlier on than you. Yeah. The owner of the company. And sometimes I wouldn’t even tell anyone I was a dentist just to see how that would work out. But I was just a surprise me was that dentists wouldn’t use the reps more for information. Yeah. You know, because the reps are the ones who’ve got the information on what the market’s doing, what people, you know, most, most good ideas come from other dentists, but the reps have all of that information. And to see the interaction between a dentist and a rep as an education interaction instead of a sales interaction.

Is difficult that there isn’t it from from the perspective of dentists because they feel like they’re being sold to. And naturally you’ll be sceptical. But I completely agree. I think approach everything with an open mind, and that way you are going to get get more value from it. I think with us, what was quite good is that there was never a hard sell for us. We just essentially wanted to make every interaction as positive as could be with whoever it was and not necessarily enter a, you know, one of these. Enter a practice at lunchtime looking to make a sale. That was never the case. It was always a case of just making the other person feel good, being authentic and doing everything you can to delight them. Over time, that compounds and suddenly, you know, once you’ve done that enough times, they start talking to their peers, etcetera. It’s always going to sound better coming from, you know, recommendations as opposed to from the rep themselves. So once you’ve built up that that compounding effect, the sale was done most of the time before, you’ve already gone into the meeting. So you’re not, you know, actively looking to sell. Then it does become an educational thing that just comes with reputation, I guess.

Yeah, but if you had to put it down in one word, what’s the magic of Brian? What is it?

Going above and beyond for every customer. I know everyone says it, but genuinely that is what it was. Speed of replies.

So that means fixing things when things go wrong.

Is that fixing things when things go wrong? Being proactive. Speed of responses. If someone’s expecting to have something fixed, then fixing it quickly, but then also giving them something extra on top. Just surprising people with with the way that you operate and just being differentiated, I guess, from the way that other companies handle things. And over time that adds up.

Yeah. So then, okay, you decided you had enough of going around selling loops to people and you went more towards the note side. What do you call that product line?

Tap tap.

Notes. Tap notes. Tap. Yes. So just describe to anyone who’s listening what tap notes is and what it’s actually part of a bigger project by Bryant. Right.

Sure, sure. I think how it all it all came about is fundamentally, you know, we’d met a lot of dentists, many thousand at this point, face to face. And us being clinicians ourselves, we can intimately understand the day to day lives of a lot of clinicians. And we realised that just magnification and posture are very, very small problems that clinicians face speaking to them 1 to 1, a number, a number of times we realised that there are much more pressing issues and we want to position ourselves as problem solvers within the profession. And that’s kind of where this whole software project was born. So we were looking at what are the problems that dentists face in clinic. And those are things like litigation. A lot of time spent on admin note taking, etcetera, stock level management within practices, auditing, all of the stuff that’s not fun for anyone, but you have to do it as part of running a dental practice. So we thought, let’s start on the journey of trying trying to, you know, to tackle that head on. So part one of a number of softwares is tap note. And this is what we thought was the most pressing issue, which is dentists spending a lot of time on record keeping on and on notes and then also not being protected from a litigation standpoint.

So they’re spending a lot of time in practice at the end of the day, not getting home on time and then also worrying about and and being stressed about their record keeping, if anything, were to crop up. So we’ve essentially built an AI tool which allows dentists to click buttons, click diagrams. And in fact, because it’s all protocolized, the nurse can click buttons, click diagrams as you’re in the appointment, and by the end of the appointment, the AI will automatically generate tailored notes for that patient, linking symptoms to diagnoses and linking certain medical history factors to prognosis of treatments, etcetera. So it’s super tailored, super refined for that patient. So it’s not a template approach. And then it also generates consent forms and referral letters and gives analytics to practice owners. So they can do auditing in one button as opposed to poor practice manager having to sit there once every quarter and and go through, you know, multiple notes. So we want to eliminate admin with tap note. And then going forwards, it’s essentially us dipping our toes into software.

And off the back of tap will then build out the others. So one of which is stock room which is essentially our solution for stock level management in the practice. So like Amazon Fresh where you can walk in and walk out of the store and it automatically tells you what you’ve taken and bought and charges you just like that. With RFID gateway technology, we want for practices to be able to track automatically all of their inventory. So when a delivery man walks through the front door of your practice on a Monday morning carrying X boxes of composite X boxes of ET Cetera, just by walking through the gateway, it automatically logs it on the software, and it will tell you exactly what you have in each room in the practice, what your usage rates are per associate, per, you know, time period, etcetera, when your expiry dates are and then automatically reorder the correct amount that you need at the best price, because we’ll have network effects and group buys at that point. So that’s kind of what we’re looking to do there. And then the third part will be a integrated practice management software tying all all of the bits together.

So who’s in charge of the software side of the business.

Priyam. Priyam. So the way the company is structured really is you have Connor who does the hardware. So all of the loops, light systems, the materials, heaters, chair etcetera, that’s all Connor’s baby. And then the software side of things is, is Priyam.

So I mean who’s who’s who, who are the techies, who are the engineers. Yeah we’ve got many of them are there. I’ve got a team of developers.

So I think when we were building it all out there was a team of 10 to 15 and now it’s more maintenance and small changes. So that’s that’s much less.

So if I’m understanding correctly, I mean, the difference between tap notes and kiroku that we had, we had Hannah from Kiroku on here. Yeah. Is that from what you just said is that it actually has. Sort of an actual I not it’s not it’s not a database of notes.

That’s the idea.

Is that right?

Yeah, that’s the idea. So we’ve we’ve tackled it essentially we’re trying to save the same problem as Kiroku with with the tap note offering. We want to save clinicians time and also protect them from, from a litigation standpoint, same same use case. But we’ve tackled it in a different way. So we’ve gone back to front. So rather than taking templates and making them into buttons, we’ve built a neural network inputted with all of the latest clinical information and clinical guidelines etcetera, so that when inputs are clicked, it will then everything is linked together. So then symptoms will link to suggested special tests that you should be doing that which will then link to what your diagnoses should be there for your further discussion in treatment plan, etcetera. And with these neural network neural networks, they’re self reinforcing. So over time we’ll be able to accurately predict if a patient comes in with X situation then this, this, this, and this is what is most likely needed to be done and required. And that way we can act as an AI assistant or an AI crutch for clinicians basically.

Yeah, but kind of put some meat on the bones. Give an example of that. Patient comes in with pain. It could be an RCT it needs. It could be like that. Is that what you mean.

Yeah. So patient comes in with certain pain whatever that is. If we go through Socrates dull, achy, throbbing pain. Et cetera. Et cetera. Yeah. And as you go through the record, it then suggests. Okay, because you’ve got symptoms of x, y, z. Therefore, you should be doing all of these special tests on in these locations. And the results of the special tests are x, y, z. And therefore the most likely diagnosis is this and this and this. Because oftentimes I mean, we we often hear the saying that, you know, if you give a certain patient to ten different clinicians, you might get ten different treatment plans, but the diagnoses should all be the same. But unfortunately that isn’t the case. There is a lot of, you know, we’re up against it. We’ve got time pressure. We we might not have a protocol in place. We might not be up to date with the latest guidelines, and therefore we can often misdiagnose and not be as accurate with with what we’re doing as we’d like to be. So this just sets a protocol. So no matter how short your appointment times are, it tells you, okay, you need to follow this step, this step, this step, this step to make sure that all bases are covered. Because the knowledge is there. And we’ve been through dental school. We understand these things, but it’s very easy to forget. And it’s very easy to miss things out when you’re in a high pressure, high paced environment. So we’re essentially trying to tackle that with this tool.

But okay. But what I’m not fully understanding, dude, is is it a time saving tool primarily, or is it literally going to help me with diagnosis? Or is it is is that in the future it’ll be it’ll be a diagnosis that fiend. And right now it’s the time savings to.

This is something that is to be honest, both of these things are value adds of using the software. But it depends from clinician to clinician what the main use case for them is. If it’s a time thing, great, which is probably the slightly more experienced clinicians, because for them, you know, they understand these things. They’ve got experience. They’ve seen it inside out multiple times. But for new graduates like myself or younger dentists who might not be confident in as many domains, for them it’s it’s almost an educational tool or a reinforcement that what they’re doing is correct. Or if it’s not correct, then how to put it right. So therefore they feel more confident in their clinical protocols basically.

So now, now that you’re a PhD, you’re working five days a week or one day a week as the when are you when are you spending time on this? In the evenings and weekends.

Evenings and weekends. That’s right.

So you’re not you’re not involved in the sales part of this or do you make evening appointments with people?

And I do I do a little bit of.

That online appointments.

Yeah online appointments. But we have I’ve got a team now who handle that. Once demand has grown quite a lot. It’s too much for myself and a couple of people to to handle. So I’ve got a small team running the sales operation and then we, we spend a lot of time also talking to customers and discussing feedback with developers to then guide the way that we develop the product, as is the case with all software products, really, if you’re doing it right.

So you do the sprints and. Yeah, exactly. But then let’s say I don’t know what the situation is with Tom. Let’s say he’s he’s not doing dentistry, is he not.

He’s not practising at the moment. No.

Yeah. So, so he’s he’s available five days a week and you’re only available in the evenings. What pressure is there on you to do dentistry or come do more time at I don’t mean pressure by by by Connor and Priam I mean which way are you being pulled?

The reason I did my foundation year really, was because then it buys me a year to not have to to make that decision. I think up until this point in my life, there’s been very little opportunity cost because I’ve been at Dental school. So it’s, you know, it’s simple, just, you know, graduate, get as much knowledge as you can. Off you go. And this is supplementary with that. And we’re now getting to the point by the end of my year where I need to make a decision in which direction I’m going to go. Is that kind of what you’re alluding to with your question? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s something I’ve toyed with for quite a while and something that I haven’t necessarily got clarity on just yet. However, I’ve broken down, you know, my blueprint for the next 12 months and what it is that I need to execute on. And my job, really, I don’t want to overthink things is just to execute on these steps in this time period. And at the end of the end of that year, I can make the decision. So I haven’t got a straight answer for you because I don’t want to commit either way just yet. This buys me a year to see number one where how do I develop? What is my skill set turn into? And secondly, what happens with with the company and the trajectory and then also with my clinical career within dentistry, what doors do I unlock and then I can make a decision.

Because when the last time I saw you, we were speaking about America. American exams. And and although, you know, don’t know, you might be the kind of cat who says, I’m going to just do my American bit because just to have that door open to me, but to me, someone who wants to to to pass, you know, to become a dentist in America is someone who’s going to go into clinical dentistry.

Um, yes and no. I think more than, you know, just passing the exams and then going to America to become a clinical dentist. For me, it just unlocks another geography and the opportunities associated with that. Once you’ve got the, you know, the or whatever route your mechanism, you decide to get into the states. Now the whole world is open and you’re not going to be limited. And to be honest, the the opportunity, sorry, the cost of that is pretty low. All it takes is a bit of hard work and a bit of elbow grease over the next couple of months to get that done and over the line. So it doesn’t really cost me anything to to to spend the time to do that.

So you’re actually saying that you’re open to going and becoming eventually a 100% clinical dentist? I just don’t see it, dude.

No, no. 100% clinical. I know for a fact that’s not going to be it. I think the great thing about dentistry is you can have impacts both upstream and downstream. So your downstream impact will come from your clinical work, your surgical work, etcetera. And there’s probably nothing more fulfilling than actually delivering that. But at the same time, you can scale a business, own multiple practices, clinics, etcetera, and have impacted a slightly more upstream and broader. So for me, the idea wouldn’t be to go to America to just become a wet finger clinician. And that’s that’s all I do. It just unlocks the opportunity for me to if I want to build a group of practices, I can now go and do that in the States as well. And I don’t need to make that decision now. It costs me nothing to to just keep that door open.

I mean, the sort of the flexibility you alluded to in dentistry is definitely a you know, it’s definitely true. Yeah. And having, you know, having danced on this particular needle myself, I can let you know that when you’re mixing, you’re going to be mixing it for a while. Surely when you’re mixing it two days clinical and 3 or 4 days non-clinical is a good mix. It’s a good mix. Two days clinical is kind of, you know, you’re doing enough dentistry to be, you know, wet fingered. Three days clinical is just hard work. It’s just you’re more dentist than you are anything else because it’s three days, you know what I mean? It really is that. And one day clinical definitely isn’t enough. In my experience, I did it. I did it for a long time. It was a big error. It’s demotivating in its own self. So, you know, maybe that will be the way that in the early days you’ll be in that sort of phase of mixing clinical with non clinical.

That’s that’s definitely how I envisage it for now the next couple of years, I think early on in your career is probably where you develop the most clinically. You probably learn the most in those few early years and don’t want to sacrifice that time because I actually do enjoy clinical dentistry quite a bit. So I’m trying to front load that as much as possible. And I know it’s, you know, it’s tricky too. I think with, with clinical dentistry you just need experience. At the end of the day, you need to put the reps in. No matter how much you study or learn up front, it’s very difficult to condense that time period in any substantial way and recognise that. So I want to spend time on my clinical dentistry, but then also keep the appetite and develop the skill stack in other domains as well. So then when it is time to go, both options are open and both will complement each other. If I mean at the end of the day, if you want to run a group of clinics, then it can only be a positive thing to be clinically competent or you know, as best as you can be anyway. Yeah.

But so what are you saying? You haven’t decided whether you want to run a group of clinics or whether you want to do the supply side or both, or neither. You don’t know.

I don’t know for sure. I don’t know for sure. If I had complete clarity, it’d be it’d be pretty easy to just point the gun and execute. Up until this point in my life, I’ve always known what it is I’m working towards, and it’s just a case of executing on the steps to get there. This is why right now is a different territory for me, because I’ve never really been in this position where I haven’t exactly figured out what that trajectory or what the right path to take is, but which is, you know, for now, all it takes is hard work to to keep all of those doors open when I get clarity, execute, job done. No doors are closed. Let’s do it.

Yeah. I mean, I don’t know why I’m expecting you to have the answers to this question. These are difficult questions, man. And the reason is you’ve gotten yourself to a position that that gives you these choices when you’re thinking about the future. As far as Bryant, how wed are you to it? I mean, we’ve got we said you’re a partner. And so I guess there are some financial implications to that. But but how ready are you to it? I mean can you, can you envisage yourself doing a different thing altogether? Nothing to do with Bryant or.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the guys are quite, quite open and quite, you know, understanding. They know that at the end of the day, this is their baby and they’ve sacrificed more. And you know, for, for the, for the rest of us, of course, we’ve sacrificed a lot, but nowhere near as much as them. And we need to, you know, at some point do our own thing and build our own company or whatever it is. We have our own journeys. I’ve always been up front with them and said, look, from day one, this for me is an opportunity to learn. It’s a it’s a playground really to to try things out and, and learn a lot of skills with very little downside. And they’ve been quite, quite open and quite facilitating with that. At the end of the day, you know, they know what kind of people we are and they know that we’re not going to be involved with something or tied to one thing for our whole lives, or at least for a very long time. And it’s I mean, that’s that’s that’s the thing with great leadership, isn’t it? You’re not going to restrict people that work with you. You want to facilitate whatever it is that they want to do. And therefore there’s a mutual value add.

For sure, for sure. And. It’s it’s been an impressive journey to. But I want to get to the darker side of this board. I want to talk about errors. And I know it’s a bit bit unfair because clinically you haven’t had much time to make errors. But we I made some errors in dental school. And in the spirit of the pod, let’s discuss errors.

Yeah I think. I’ve. Endodontics has been tricky for me. I’ve. I’ve perforated while at dental school, but that’s to be expected. Is it?

But is it, is it because I perforated in dental school? But does everyone perforate in dental school?

I think not necessarily just perforating, but you are going to make mistakes at some point, right? That’s part and parcel of it. Yeah. I think maybe being a little bit gung ho, trying to do things on my own, which has served me well in some aspects, but some aspects of life. But when it comes to, to clinical practice, of course you need to be a bit more careful. So in fourth year or whatever it was, I should have been stopping at every single stage, etcetera. And these things happen. But you learn the main thing is you learn your lesson and from that point onwards you know, you don’t make the same mistakes.

What about, you know, a loop spaced error? What comes to mind when I say that mistakes you’ve made on the road?

Or I think once I sent a case of loops in an Uber to one of the other reps, and then the Uber driver went went driving around the city. So we had to to chase him and get that back. So that could have been pretty costly. Other than that really, it’s just been technical things. So maybe my first couple of customers, the measurements weren’t correct. And then I go back, be open and honest about it, say, look, you know, I messed this up, this up, this up. Let’s remake it for you. Let’s get this right. Et cetera. Et cetera. So it’s always been slight technical things that, you know, that’s part of learning. I’m quite lucky in that I don’t think I’ve made any huge mistakes in terms of decision making or strategy so far with how I’ve conducted my life, but who knows? Those those are, I guess they’re all those are all coming at some point.

But I’m still not, you know, I’m still not happy.

I don’t know what.

A darkest day, a darkest day you must have had. What’s been the darkest day in the last 24 years? 24. Is it.

23? Oh. Darkest day. I’d say the one that hits best life. The one that. No, no, the one that hit me the hardest. It sounds quite trivial, but in year 11, the first game of the hockey season, not being selected for the first 11, that hit me quite hard because I always thought I was pretty good. But then from, you know, one game later I was back in the squad and that was sorted. But, you know, to be honest, I’m interested.

I’m interested in, you know, you said you and your brother competitive. Yeah. And and the benefits of competitiveness are kind of obvious. But the downside of being very competitive, you know, like what you just said, not being selected for the team destroyed you somewhat. Yeah. So that or or being a bad loser like we all lose in life, don’t we? We all lose somewhere.

Yeah. Well I think losing.

Somewhere with that.

Losing my brother consistently over many, many years is you.

Lose. You know what I mean? The downside of being competitive, what relationships got you.

I’d think relationships, friendships and your personal life can take a toll quite a bit because you’re you’re not always in the room. You’re in the room, but your mind’s not. And you’re living inside your head quite a bit can be quite taxing. My brother and I, maybe when we were growing up throughout school, had an extremely competitive relationship, but not a healthy one. It was not a supportive one. We weren’t, you know, we weren’t growing together. We were always trying to outdo each other. But then once we went to once I went to university, it completely flipped. And now we’re the closest of friends and it’s awesome. I think it’s really, really good. And I’m very, very grateful for that relationship. But I think to answer your question, you know, you probably felt the same thing when you’re getting you’re getting enlightened off the ground. It’s very difficult to not be completely consumed by it and that to take over your life in all areas. And a lot of my close friends, they do sit me down and tell me, look, you’re here, we’re having a conversation, but you’re not here. Snap out of it. Come on. And that’s something I need to work on for sure.

Yeah, that definitely happens to me when during during a phase of innovation. And you guys are constantly innovative innovation. So it’s one of those things it doesn’t I’m sure it’s the same with, you know, people who are doing fantastically well or people not doing fantastically well, or anyone when you’re doing when you’re making something new and you’re bringing something new out, you have to be completely obsessed by it. Yeah. Otherwise you just won’t do the damn thing. It’s so hard that you won’t do it.

Yeah, no, I think I’ve listened to a lot of your pods. And you always talk about, you know, execution is the most important part, right? But the execution is the most difficult part. Anyone can can have an idea. And to get something over the line, you need to be. 100% in until that is delivered on, and 100% of anything means that everything else becomes neglected. And that’s something that you need to come to terms with and agree with, I guess.

And you know, before we were talking about talking to dentists and sales and you were saying, you know, knowing you have the best product, but everyone doesn’t have the best product. You know, there’s some guy selling his product based on, you know. Priceless a or someone else’s based on just just habit. And you know, it’s that thing of having being able to say, I’m selling the best product. It’s a nightmare to deliver that, isn’t it? 100%.

100%. Yeah. But then. But then at the same time, I think if you can very definitively define what your USP is, fine. If quality is the main thing, then yes, you need to have the best product. But then if your main thing is, you know, we can outcompete anyone else on price, great. Or if your main thing is we have a certain feature which to you may supersede everything else in terms of importance, then this is what we have. And I think the main thing is you’re not trying to sell to everyone. The people that recognise what you have is going to suit their needs the best. Then great. You just need to deliver value to the people for whom it’s appreciated. I mean, recently I’ve been reading Blue Ocean Strategy, which is. I’m not sure if you’ve read it, but it’s.

I’ve been reading it recently.

Excellent. Great book, great book.

And it’s lovely.

It’s all about competing on a completely different axis to everyone else and therefore making competition, you know, irrelevant. And I completely agree. I mean, if you’ve got a nice green field opportunity then it sounds it’s great. It’s great. You can just focus on doing what you do best for the people that you’re trying to serve as opposed to, as opposed to outdoing your adversary.

It’s been a massive pleasure, man. It’s been a massive pleasure having you. I’m. It’s funny. It’s funny man. Every time I talk to you, it’s just so easy to talk to you because. Because you’re very, very, very articulate at your young age. Where did you get that, man?

Uh, repetitions. I think I’m speaking to a lot of dentists over two years. Three years or so.

Does it not predate the dentist? I think always I think.

I’ve always been relatively articulate, but probably wasn’t that confident in many social interactions. I was quite an anxious kid always. I was always doing a lot, but I was maybe not as confident in myself as I am now. I guess that’s part of growing up, right? But I think in my school there were a lot of articulate peers, a lot of articulate teachers. We were always presenting, doing, doing things like that. And that builds the baseline competence. And then over time, as you build the confidence and you get the reps in, it’s like anything in life, you do enough of something and you’re in the right in the right areas and you observe it a lot. Then it starts filtering into the way that you operate.

Yeah, I find it strange that you’re saying that now that you weren’t confident because you seem like I suppose not. No one was ever confident from day one. But I think your parents have done a wonderful job, because instilling confidence in your kid without instilling arrogance is a massive, massive achievement. And you really have that. It’s a lovely thing. Let’s get to the final questions, buddy. Which one do you want first? Is an avid listener. Are you looking for the Prav? The Prav, the Prav? But let’s start with the P because it’s less deep. Okay. Fantasy dinner party three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Number one is Roger Federer. I think to compete at a high level and to be at the pinnacle of such a competitive environment for a consistent period of time for so long is is exceptional. And I think you need to be wired a certain way to constantly demand standards of yourself over such a sustained period of time. And I think there’s a lot of lessons to learn from him. How did he keep that fire going? All the time? Because we all get it in sprints, right? We all have motivation at times, and then sometimes we don’t. But to compete at that level, you need to constantly be on and that has to be systemised, I think. Yes, there are characteristics, but he’s definitely done something or his team have done something with him to maintain that. So I think there will be a lot to learn from someone like him. Secondly, isn’t isn’t.

Federer famous for being a boring guy? I might be wrong. I don’t know.

Never met him. Never met him?

No, I’ve got no idea, dude. I’m not. I’m not exactly a sports fan, but something in me. Maybe it’s just. I’ve got some sort of thing about his face. Go ahead, go ahead. Who? Who else?

Um. No, I’d say the second one would be Bill Clinton. I think the thing with the thing with Bill Clinton is that we probably everyone’s heard it, but he has this innate ability to to make everyone that he meets feel like $1 million. And again, that is something which I think is such a superpower. To be able to build people up like that is great. I mean, we hear about this, they call it this reality distortion field and how he makes every person that he meets feel like they are the most important person in the universe at that point in time, and it’d be great to see how he does that. It’ll be awesome.

I read a book. Maybe we probably read the same book, but it was talking about the guy was going around with Clinton on the campaign trail or whatever, and he was saying, literally, the guy who opens the door for him, he makes you feel like $1 million, genuinely.

It’s awesome. It’s amazing. It’s amazing.

Yeah. See, that’s not a boring guess. Well done.

Gotta have a mix. Maybe he can get something out of Federer. Right.

Yeah. Who’s your third?

Third would be, at the moment someone I’ve been super, super in awe of and impressed with in terms of execution is is Will Ahmed of the CEO of, CEO and founder of Woop. It’s a crowded space, you know, health care and wearable technology. But the way he’s been able to outcompete his his competition in an environment which was so, you know, it was already quite well established with with other companies Garmin. Aura et cetera. He’s done it in such an organic way where he’s really leaned into, you know, community building with users, etcetera, etcetera. And who knows, maybe his tech might be the best. Probably. Probably not. But the the way that he’s been able to create virality, again, learning how he’s done that in a systematic way would be very useful in my opinion.

Yeah, I’ve heard good stories about him as well. Um, young as well? No. Like really young.

Very young. Think he’s 30 something, isn’t he?

Yeah. Amazing.

Yeah.

Let’s get to practice. It’s weird last day on the planet for someone your age, but last day on the planet. Surrounded by your friends and family. Three pieces of advice you would leave for them.

Number one, I’d say don’t drive with the brakes on. And what I mean by that is don’t limit yourself with negative thinking or the fear of not knowing what you’re getting into or not. Not believing you can actually deliver on something or achieve something. I think it’s always better to do things and figure it out that way, because you’ll always regret the things that you don’t do as opposed to things that you do do and that go wrong. So I think having an action bias would be would be the first one.

Um.

Secondly, I would say again, going back to Bill Clinton is build people up around you, take people with you on whatever journey it is that you’re on and try and, you know, play positive sum games where everyone around you wins and you win as well. It’s not at the expense of anyone. So don’t be selfish. Share and make people feel good and add value for them. And then finally I’d say to to try and be present, which is something that I need to figure out myself. So maybe this is me talking to myself. So try and be present and live out. Live outside of your own head. Don’t be, you know, always occupied with the future and have anxiety about what’s going on. And also don’t regret what you have done. Just trust your gut and back your convictions and have faith in the process.

Again. Wise words from a young man. Wise words from it really is bad. You’ve really got an older head on your shoulder. But it’s nice to hear that, man. Action bias build people up. Was the third one. Trust your instincts.

Trust your instincts and be present.

Be present, be present. Yeah. You know, it’s a funny thing here because this this preface question, it’s kind of like some people answer it in a sort of, okay, be kind, because I’ve found being kind is really, really useful thing to be, let’s say. Yeah, but then some people answer it in the way you answered. Your third one is kind of the the thing I wish I had done, which I haven’t done so far, sort of thing. Um, which is, which is interesting. It’s an interesting thing, buddy. Thank you so much for doing this. I think I want to check in with you again, as the guy who suggested you want to be on the pod in your second year of dental school. You deserve a second bite at this. But in in, you know, a couple of years time, I’d be very interested to see where you’re at, buddy. So thanks a lot for taking the time to do this.

Thanks for having me. Much appreciated. Thank you very much.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

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