Month: June 2021

[00:00:00] This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just know skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of Ymir. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear. This is Dental Leaders,

[00:01:12] The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your host’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:27] Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast for this episode. This is Prav hasn’t been with me for a few months. We decided just to sit down together and and and go through some of the things we’ve learnt from the guests in the past few episodes since our famous Queen’s Speech episode that we had when Boris shut the whole country down. And, you know, some of this has been people who’ve we’ve known, some of them been people we haven’t known. What stood out for you Prav in that in this period between the last time we spoke and Christmas when there was that shut down till now, was supposed to that for you? I think to me there’s been an overt bit taken away from like what stood out in terms of individual stories and things like that. Much more to do with the overall feeling of returning back to normality with you. You know, the conversations I’m having with people, certainly when, you know, when it comes from a business perspective, was really stood out for me, has been this acceleration, right. This growth that a lot of practises and a lot of our clients are experiencing also how to deal with that and coping with that overwhelmed. I think what was really stood out is the people who grabbed that opportunity by the horns and run with it, making hay while the sun shines type scenario. And then the individuals or business owners who say, hey, this is too much, I need to calm down and step back from those opportunities.

[00:02:56] Right. And thus, you know, those are the two main camps that I’m seeing at the moment, people who are grabbing and running with it, and people who are just sort of saying, hey, this is too much, we’ll create a waiting list. We can’t cope with growth. We won’t scale. We’ll just deal with it. And they will be the same people maybe in 12 months time or whatever. We’ll be picking up the phone saying I need more patience. Yeah. Although, you know, the natural history of a practise can be many things, can’t it? It doesn’t have to be in a particular particular path. I mean, I hear what you’re saying because I hear stories of people who’ve taken taken whatever reserves they had or some people obviously did quite well from the overpayments over the lockdown period and have invested and grow growing. Their businesses mean growing their premises and and growing their marketing budgets. And I learnt that from my side. I can see the the bleaching and the composites side of it more clearly. I guess you’ve got a good view on the Invisalign, although the implants and all of that. But all of it seems to be going through the roof, not just high ticket dentistry. Right. So the big ticket items starting from the smaller big ticket items like GDP also. Right. Starting from around, say, three and a half or whatever people charge all the way up north of, you know, 30, 40 K for immediate loading implant dentistry.

[00:04:21] We’re seeing that going through the roof. Right. But just going back to what we said earlier, there is no right or wrong way of navigate in this scenario, OK? Because some people during, say, the lock down before this whole thing took off, I’ve actually had a reassessment of the life. Right. You don’t want to work as hard. Yeah, they’ve sat back and appreciated whether it’s time with their family taking their foot off the pedal, reducing their stress levels. And these opportunities come and they decide actively not to take it. I’m not saying that’s wrong. But then there’s the others who have got this almost like energetic growth mindset mentality who just say, hey, there’s an opportunity here. The sun is shining and it’s going to go down one day. I’m going to make the most of it. And we’re seeing we’re seeing from the patient perspective, I think we’ve spoke about this in the past, the the this overwhelming demand, an interest for patients wanting to spend money on their teeth. Right. Put things right. Whether it’s functional or cosmetic. And where is all this money come from? Is it the Furlaud fund? And we could argue that perhaps, you know, there’s been the fact that, you know, people haven’t been able to spend the money, go on holidays, blah, blah, blah, and they’ve accumulated some savings. But we’re seeing loads of older people. Right, retired people who are, you know, or pensioners and that sort of age.

[00:05:44] Well, you know, I don’t think their spending habits have changed much, but we’re seeing a larger influx of those people who are saying, you know what? I’m going to invest 15, 20, 30, 40 calientes now, and we’re getting less knows or we’re getting less maybe or less. I’ll think about it more. I’ll go for it. And in your business, you’re seeing record winning numbers, right? Yes. Through the roof is through the roof. I mean, if you told me we were going to be this busy now back in the shutdown period, I wouldn’t have believed you at all. But back to what you were saying. I think there has been any way to spend your money as well, Prav you literally flow out of it. If I was an older person, a 60 year old guy who’s got a bit of cash in the bank, whatever, haven’t been able to go to restaurants, haven’t been able to spend it on holidays, you know, you might even be putting big purchases like car purchases and things to one side in this period where, you know, you’ve been focussed at home. I think the home DIY kind of spend. I speak to people in that area who are doing very well, but also, you know, you haven’t got anywhere to spend the money. So probably where it is, there’s only there’s only so many capacity’s and digestives you can get through a home. And that’s not going to cost you a fortune, right? A lot of our own.

[00:07:00] So should we go through some of the episodes or should we now continue talking about this? Yeah, let’s let’s go through this. Since we did the which was it? I think it was episode sixty three. Sixty sixty four. Where. Bloody hell. Sixty four episodes. Does it seem like yesterday we started this right. Yeah. I mean I was in sixty four episodes. Right. But looking back it and say hey let’s go back to episode sixty four. So episode sixty five was with Nic and Sanjay Sethi. I mean Nic said to me, is this almost a newcomer because we’re getting older. But Sanjay said he was one of the first people who really inspired me in composites. It was before we were selling composites. We were only doing whitening systems at that point. And I clearly remember the first time I saw a composite that was in a completely invisible and completely polished was the lecture that he gave at, I want to say maybe two thousand four, 2003 around then really beautiful. And he really is one of the top dentists in the country, does a lot of implant work and at the Square Mile clinic that they’re both that they’ve been joined by a couple of our other other guests on the show, Elaine Moe and now Amit Patel as well. But I was really interested in and in the way that Nic was talking about how Sanjay mentored him into that practise and what he had to do in that practise just to just to make just earn his stripes, you know, before they sort of he’s gone off in his minimally invasive direction.

[00:08:45] So what do you think of them Prav you know them? Well, I don’t. But, you know, the one thing I’ll say is that, you know, brothers, brothers in arms and all the rest of it. Right. Being inspired by your older brother and working with your brother, the only the only parallel I can draw to that is me and Kailash. Right. And for those that have heard the episodes and those that have heard me speak, I think it’s pretty clear we’re like chalk and cheese. So if we were brothers in arms, working together in the same business, I can tell you there would be fireworks, right? It just wouldn’t work. We’ve got different values, different dynamics. And we love each other to bits. Right. But we couldn’t work together. And so so in this in this relationship, what did you notice from the did we have the situation where younger brother was looking up to Big Brother or what was the biggest difference really between them and you guys? This is a massive age difference between so a bit more like father and son than than brother and brother. I think Nic really always looked up to to Sanjay and, you know, what a great example to have for him. Essentially, for the first two years, maybe do everything

[00:09:57] I have to learn it the way Sanjay understood it, and I have to then obviously bring on what I knew from courses and learning and I was say the end those areas. I was doing everything that I did. And then before I started getting into surgery and implants, I suddenly thought to myself, well, I’d love to be a partner in this grandma one day. I mean, I love the practise dearly. It’s been such an instrumental part of my life. I love the team. I love everything about practise. And I thought, well, if I’m going to be a partner here, it doesn’t make sense to be exactly the same as Sanjay because Sanjay says he’s got his patient base for 20 years and it be exactly the same.

[00:10:38] And so we then have a good discussion.

[00:10:41] And I decided, well, I’m not going to go down the implants route, know never say never. Right. But Sanjay’s I’ve never I’ve got a good night with restorative dentistry. I’d like to think I can produce some nice results now, always learning.

[00:10:55] But for me to then get to that next level to where Sanjay’s surgically, that’s a whole nother career. And what Sanjay has developed with his handling of soft

[00:11:06] Tissues, it’s not just placing an implant in his vision or his handling of soft tissue is grafting.

[00:11:12] It’s such a niche that I think he’s so good. Why do I want to go down that path when he’s the man? He is the man. Let’s talk about Episode 66 with Max, Max, Max Basini bazoo, Quini Basuki. You know, when I’ve spoken to Max, right, I said, listen, your first name is really easy, Max. It’s my you know, I think it’s your Starbucks name. Right. And I sometimes you have my name right. But how do I how to pronounce the surname. Right. And he says, just think about zucchini and stick a bat in front of the rights of Basil Keaney. But, you know, a guy who’s got some serious Italian flair and has come from, you know, his early days, his background is, you know, learning how to sell businesses. I think he started off in in the health care, selling a gym right back in the early days and then moved on to dentistry. And the conversations I’ve had with this guy is that he really does know the buying and selling of practise business really well. And more importantly, he’s very, very much geared towards maximising value for clients. Right. He recently sold and I’m sure and he’s happy for me to say this, but he recently helped to sell and the most beautiful practise in Essex advanced Dental. Oh, yeah, both of our favourites, fair practise and human being. Right. What a great guy. Right. But, you know, he sold on this practise and I remember this conversation and, you know, and they would pick up the phone to me and he says, Prav, I think now is the time. And then and then we spoke numbers and he said it’s a pretty good number that I’m happy with that. And and we had the conversation.

[00:13:09] We said, look, should you hire somebody to sell? You practise or shouldn’t you? And my answer to that was, look, we don’t do this for a living. You do teeth. I do marketing, business coaching, whatever. Right. And you need a professional who does this day in, day out. And their value add is whatever number you’ve got sat on the table today, they need to elevate the whatever deal you’ve got on the table today. They need to elevate that and whatever their fee structure is, needs to be a no brainer. Yeah. And it’s it’s one percent. Right. It’s nothing nice in comparison to the big picture. It’s nothing. Right? Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people all he has to do is get two percent more for the practise and now it’s been worth it. Right. It’s absolutely nothing. And I think I come across and I have numerous conversations with people who were going or who are having conversations where the buyer has gone direct to practise on, OK, they’re a little bit wet behind the ears. They don’t know how. They’re not professional negotiators. They may think they are because they’re selling treatment every day or whatever. Right. But but I think it’d be very naive for somebody to sell their practise without at least speaking to a broker and seeing what’s possible. So when when a client comes to me and goes, you know, what is it worth me paying somebody to do this? No. One, they take away the pain and the unknowns of that. But number two, it’s a no brainer because whatever their fee structure is, they should be they should easily be able to earn that out in the price structure.

[00:14:43] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I like to say I have a good relationship with with most of the groups and the. Titian’s team and Yamane guys and ladies working in the groups when they see May involving involvement, my involvement instantly become aware that it’s going to be a tough negotiation and it’s not always the case if you go and approach them direct. Most of the time at Prav persona, we do this once in a lifetime that we said they practise and they will, and we only have one opportunity and they get an offer and then maybe think that’s the best and final and maybe they don’t. You know, they might be great clinicians by the grace and negotiating. I don’t know what buttons to push in my experience and my background. Obviously spying practises. So I know what buttons to push in order to increase the value. You know, what can improve evaluations and negotiation. I know we know what we can we can achieve. So sometimes we see an initial offer and it’s not just about the price, but also about the terms and the amount of the UK on the deferred basis. In terms of example, I can give you an example, which is quite exceptional, really. There was the practise in Buckinghamshire who came to us with an offer on a table for one point eight million.

[00:16:05] So I analysed the figures and then of course, we can talk about how we value and prices in a minute. And then I thought is a good offer, but I think we can improve on that offer a one point eight. And the way that you can improve is by creating a nice competitive tension, not just with that group by introduce either two or three potential buyers that you think that a good match. And we did so. So the consequently we started to get offers and the same group who offer one point eight and it was the best and final couple of months later they offered two point four. So obviously wasn’t the best and final. But then eventually the deal closed at two point seven, which I was very surprised by. I think with it, I think I’m pleased with what we did there and the clients will play. So you sold ultimately ended up selling to another group, not to the same group. So your one and a half percent save, I would say, is more than justified by involving someone like us that can introduce and bring to the table different groups and sometimes also trying to maximise on the current offer that you might have from from the same group.

[00:17:16] So even if you may deal with a corporate or a buyer, it’s still not too late to engage a professional like yourself.

[00:17:25] Now, it’s now obviously you need to trying to find the balance in not to upset the buyer, but in your best interest, you need to maximise your chances, your opportunity, and is probably once in a lifetime opportunity. And it’s an exciting time to sell your business. And you want to make sure that you, especially if you ended up working with the group, there is not a sentiment in the time in the way that you value that you got. So you need to make sure that you get the right value before you sell, realising it after by talking to your friends and say, actually, I could sell for more or my conditions could have been better. So you get to explore all avenues and make sure you get a good deal in terms of value and in terms of terms.

[00:18:10] So what’s not for me? I mean, if you remember, we had and the acting as well from Frank, their associates. But what stood out for me with Max was there was the thing he was talking about, like a beauty parade way of selling a practise, of bringing in lots of different interested parties and getting a better price for it that way, which was which is an interesting thing. And the other thing that you said, for every pound that you save, that can translate to seven pounds extra on the value of the nine or whatever, whatever online. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that starts becoming an interesting conversation. I mean, I’m speaking to now probably half a dozen of my clients who have reached that point where they’re ready to hang up their drills. Right. Or at least transition towards that point. And it’s funny they’re having conversations about should I put the staff wages up because it’s what I’ve always done. Right. But if I let’s let’s say the staff wages go up by. Ten grand. OK, I’ve I just lost. Eighty eight, yeah, yeah, I’ve just lost eight to 10 times that, yeah. My advice is. When you’re selling your business, the deal isn’t done until the money’s in your bank to carry on running that business as though you would be ruining it to grow it, because if that deal doesn’t go through and you’re building that excitement and that hope up to the point where you get to the last point and then the rug is pulled, there’ll be so many business decisions you would have made where at that point you’ll be better off.

[00:19:52] But you kept holding yourself back for that potential sale. Do you know of any stories where people sold their practise and then gave a bonus to their staff at that point? No, no, no. I don’t know any stories about that. But to be honest, I don’t know a lot of people who have sold their practise. I think I think the clients that I’ve been working with for sort of north of a decade, between 10 to 15 years are currently at that stage where they’re considering exit or working towards that or planning towards that or having those conversations. And so it’s all it’s all quite new to me. Right. I’m learning a lot along the way. And I think it’s very exciting and interesting, just the psychology that comes around. Except what does that mean? What does retirement mean? How does that affect your family dynamics? Right. Having, you know, meeting up. I met with Andy Moore and went to his house shortly after he sold and had some really interesting conversations with him about what, you know, you sit down and say, Andy, what’s it feel like now not to be the boss? OK, what does it feel like to have the extra lump sum sitting in your bank account, in the security and everything? And do you feel like you’ve achieved the dream? OK, and it’s really, really interesting conversations I had there where sometimes you know what you expect and the reality is quite different, you know? Yeah, I think.

[00:21:25] Well, Andy, Andy achieved the dream many years ago. The first that’s a very, very, very different you know, I’ll tell you I’ll tell you what Andy said. I’m sure you won’t mind. I won’t go into detail on everything. But, you know, he shared with me that you get to the point where you sell your business for for a sum that is life changing, OK? And your friends tell you, you know, when you sell the business by a drinka. Yeah, buy your dream house, yeah, yeah, do all these things go on an amazing holiday, right? We’re talking about Andy Moore. Here he goes. He goes to Necker Island on holiday every year. Yeah, he’s got a beautiful home. Yeah. A beautiful, beautiful home is the dream home. Right. And he’s had the dream castle. So so for him, it’s like, well, what’s next? But I think, you know, the one thing that I walked away from that conversation, he says he said he felt a sense of security for him, his family, his life, the hard work he put in.

[00:22:32] Yeah. For many generations and generations ahead. Absolutely. Absolutely. For those interested Episode 10 with Andy, Andy Moore, one of the best of whatever, both of our favourite people. And you know, it’s a good one to listen to Episode 10. Let’s move on to the next episode with the shoddy, shoddy, managerial, shoddy and interesting person. She I’m very much in touch with her now, but she did this very interesting thing where she started social media during lockdown and she didn’t have an Instagram account or not. Not a proper one. Not Dental one anyway, before before lockdown. And she certainly didn’t have a ticktock. And I guess she’s one of these sort of high achievers and she’s decided to overlook town to start making content and interesting Prav. The numbers are probably different now. But when when I spoke to her, her ticktock following was over one hundred and twenty thousand, but her Instagram was around twelve thirteen thousand and she was doing similar work for both goes to show the reach of the different platforms. She’s definitely now out there. But so interesting to see that within such a short period you can make a name on the platforms with a bit of focus. She lucked out a little bit with some of the sort of more, you know, with the way Tick-Tock works. If it’s a juicy headline, sometimes people follow it in the turkey teeth and the the one the pegs that they were showing and all of that and just the great conversation with the young dentist going places.

[00:24:07] I feel. I feel with Chardy. What do you think the future for her is? I think that, you know, she’s she’s one of those she’s taking it in her, taking the time, trying to do the jobs that she wants to do rather than what she needs to do. She’s working two days a week and focussing on the content side a bit more. And in the conversation, she said, look, I’ve got a practise in my head that I want to one day do. And, you know, what I’m interested in, though, is, you know, we own many small Makov when Kunal does his marketing, but he always asks who he is, go to Dental account, and generally less than half the room have a Dental Instagram account. And he’s like, oh, why don’t you should know. But what I’m interested in is in, what, a short period of time? I mean, look down a year ago. Yeah. And what a short period of time. You can make a massive impact here. If people find your content valuable, your valuable content. It’s not it’s not just about consistency, Stephanie. About consistency, but not but not only about consistency is about engaging with people.

[00:25:15] I think you have to spend enough time consuming the platform to learn what works, what doesn’t work, the trends. I think it’s important to jump on the trends and that kind of thing. But, you know, I found that I was spending like two or three hours a day on that anyway, so I might as well be creating because if you see enough tick tock videos, you’ll want to create one. If you see the same trends, you’ll think about your take on the trend. So, yeah, definitely. I don’t think

[00:25:41] I know this is a million dollar question,

[00:25:44] But

[00:25:44] What would you say makes a video go viral?

[00:25:49] Yeah, I’m OK.

[00:25:50] I’m asking you for the answer, but what would you say from what you’re learning?

[00:25:55] Yeah. So I think you see

[00:25:58] Title seems to work well.

[00:26:00] Do you see a title works very well. I think, you know, I think even I don’t think anyone fully understands how the platform works. So one video could go super viral, but another similar video could not say. I think a lot of it is down to luck and it’s about producing enough content consistently for one of them to inevitably go viral. But with me, to be honest, the first video that I thought had gone viral was 80000 views and then that the ultimate was the eight million views. But the crowd’s opinion is one. But I think you need to be divulging some sort of juicy information. You need to grab people’s attention. And it’s about, you know, with ticktock, it’s about retention of the viewer. So it’s about time. And how long they spent viewing that video, how many times they watch it, whether they send it to other people, how many people like it commented. That kind of stuff plays a big part in how viral that video goes. So, for example. That video is incredible video, it was filmed for and will give you analytics that will tell you how long they’ve spent, people have spent watching that video. So a lot of people had shared it with each other. They sent it and that’s how it went. Stupefy. It was on every kind of, you know, like like Beigel, all these kind of external places as well. A lot of

[00:27:14] You on the news,

[00:27:15] Right? Yeah, I was in Russia TV as well. I don’t know how I would like to instead look

[00:27:21] For people who don’t know, just go through what happened with that, because that was like a Katie Price turkey video thing was.

[00:27:27] Yeah. So it was a on ticked off. There is one of the trends. So I’m ticked off for people who aren’t familiar with the platform, a lot of content is for entertainment and a lot of content is for hacks and DIY kind of stuff. So, you know, cutting hair recipes, that kind of thing. And a trend with regards to teeth and health was that people were going to turkey, shaving their teeth down and saying these are videos, and then showing that before and after and their sharp teeth. And this wasn’t anything new. It was on Instagram for a while before it went on on ticktock. And I had seen a lot of people kind of comment on this. A lot of dentists were rightly speaking up about it, saying, look, these are these are not many of these are crowds. But I was kind of very apprehensive about talking about it because I didn’t want it to sound like I was saying, you know, dentists in certain countries were bad and they didn’t want to sound like I was promoting, you know, a line bleach and bond kind of protocols. So I was quite apprehensive about it. And then I came across this video and I’ll take a lot of my photos with in videos that are about to you to get my opinion on it. And if a video goes viral and everyone sees it and more people are attacking you in that video.

[00:28:31] So I came across this video of a girl who was very young and she had she actually had beautiful, perfect teeth. They were lying. They were very, very white and they didn’t have any major issues. And she had gotten all of them shaved, though, I think at least five to five and had crowns on all of them saying, look at my opinions. And a lot of people were commenting, saying, oh, that is great, but you get this done. And it was really scary to see young people looking up to these in quotation marks, influences and wanting to do the same thing. So I made a video saying, look, these are not videos, these are crowns and these are the risks. You know, you can get nerve damage. You’re going to need root canal treatment. You’re going to need to replace these. And I think, you know what you were saying about juice juice content. I said you might end up needing dentures by age 14. And I think that’s what it took to kind of make people realise that actually. Yeah. That actually this isn’t like just getting false things is actually a big deal. And I got loads of messages from people like loads and loads, like hundreds of messages from people on Instagram saying I had no idea. I’ve been thinking of doing this. Thank you for sharing this. I was literally minutes away from booking my flight to go to Turkey to get this done.

[00:29:41] And there was one message from I think it was over Christmas. There was one message from this girl who was actually in Turkey, and she said, look, I’ve come here with my boyfriend to get our teeth done. And they’ve just told him he needs four root canals before he gets his crowns done. I’m really panicking. I’m really scared. What should I do? I treatments tomorrow. And I was like, there’s literally nothing I can do for you. Now you’re in Turkey, you’re already there. Like, this is the kind of stuff you should be thinking about before you go over there to get your teeth done. And the maintenance like who’s going to who’s going to pay for the maintenance? Do you understand? Do you realise this may need to be replaced? And so it went viral, shared on every kind of platform that I can think of. It was one of the trending news articles on Apple News. My dad actually was going through avenues and he was like, this is where you are. My brother came home. It was like like your like lad Bible. So it was my five minutes of fame. But I’m glad it got the attention that it needed because it made people realise that these aren’t just, you know, stuff you get done and just forget about it.

[00:30:42] Look, look, just just take a step away from from Shaddai produced an amazing concert. Right. And let’s focus on Meenu. And I’m not trying to blow smoke up either of our backsides at this point. Right. But the content of this in the content that we produce on this episode, which has got very little to do about me new but more to do with the stories that we pull out of the guests. OK, and the stories that they share has been so impactful for so many individuals. So, you know, there’s a number of dentists who’ve taken their time out to just send me a direct message and say, Prav, you know what? I listen to you and pay on my, you know, weekly whatever run and the morning walk, whatever. Yeah. I’m thank you so much for sharing that pull up to one side. Right. The purpose of this podcast has never been commercial. Payman, when we started this for Dental Leaders, we decided right in the beginning, no advertized, we weren’t going to market enlightened, we weren’t going to market me, et cetera, et cetera. And we just let the conversation flow around the guests. However. What has come as a result of that is I probably get the vast majority of new business coming towards now right through the podcast, and it’s because we’re producing powerful content. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s on this platform, it for me, it seems easy to produce good content, but personally I find it very hard on on Instagram, you know, it depends how you weigh it.

[00:32:26] Right. I made an Instagram content, all the rest of it. I don’t have the patience and all the time and I don’t have the skill. Yeah. Then you look at someone like Shaddai, you look at someone like Rohner who can just pull out a phone and produce 20 stories a day. Whole different skill sets talent, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there’s no way I can do anything like that. But sit here and shoot the breeze with you or another guest. It’s it’s just part and parcel of easy work. Yeah, other uses were episode 68, what’s driving Dev Patel? Do you know? Definitely I do. And I’ve met him several times. And the one thing that I’ll say is that Dentists’ doesn’t really scream out to me. He’s more businessman, entrepreneur, you know, and, you know, from from the early days of, like, broche link raising funding. And then, you know, this group has come out of nowhere. Right. It’s Dental beauty group that started off and then came out of nowhere. Nothink, which one of our guests had landed in his group? Several. Several. So they had only opened one. They must have only opened one with him. Yes. I think Nick Sethi’s done one with him several. The thing about Dev is I’ve known him since the early days of Dental circle and when I get near to when he qualified and I’ve always done him as a fun guy and all that, but I was really, really impressed with him on the podcast.

[00:34:01] I mean, it’s that thing that you say Prav about how you know, someone for years. And then on the podcast platform, you kind of really get to know things about them. You never knew before. And I was very impressed with him, organised. You know, he doesn’t come across as a super organised, ambitious, consistent. And, you know, he tried to take brush linked to the US and literally sat down on LinkedIn and contacted every CEO of every major Dental insurance company in America again and again and again and again until until some of them got back to him. Pig headed, real pig headed, basically. Yeah. Know, the one thing I get from from him is sort of high integrity businessman. Yeah, I mean, talking to everyone who’s worked with him, the thing they all say is that, you know, he looks after you, he doesn’t even sort of mess about. But, yeah, I like that. And I was I’ve always liked him, but I was very impressed with him talking to him at the podcast. I love that story because when you told me before that you were looking at American insurance companies. Yeah, I thought, wow, that defs really connected man. I mean, he’s got a friend in America or whatever, you know,

[00:35:19] I wish I wish I knew. She just just called emailing. So February twenty nineteen started emailing every single insurance company to possibly think, got a list of them online and every company us Dental emailed them all, messaged him on LinkedIn, linked in a message when I was called, did that constantly and I mean I collected enough to like send a message for five times just to get attention. It was like that, it was actually just for cold messaging them. I sometimes even wait until they were like, just so I can see, that’s how invaluable I got to the point about how to do it, because that’s the only time you get attention about these guys are pretty busy guys anyway. They know what time to be wasting money on things. And then I was sick of tell

[00:36:04] Me this, tell me this. Some of this studio, when you’re when you’re doing this, you’ve got to know you’ve got a piece of paper. You’ve got you’ve got a list of names and and and you’re going through that. You must be quite an organised person to to keep up

[00:36:17] That number one.

[00:36:20] And number two, I’d like to know what was the driving force when you’re doing that? Is it that sort of are going to succeed come what may? Is it spending other people’s money and I can’t let them down? What is it? What is it what is it driving you?

[00:36:35] I think it’s a combination of three things, that the first things you said is obviously definitely there. The third thing I would say is that I generally believe, especially that time when you got product that can work, they’ll be interested in it. Like I knew in my mind, if I was in front of any of these guys who have these insurance companies, I would be almost. Not stupid, but like it will be very difficult. And I know you don’t want your advice because actually this is what I need in my life as an insurance company. I can save you hundreds of millions over the next 10, 20 years. Why would you even have one compassion? That’s why I was in my mind. I was thinking like a lock.

[00:37:14] And was that your pitch? Was that your pitch when you were when you contacted them, were you saying I can save you millions?

[00:37:20] It was not. You know what it was. I’ve got a lot of these companies already were looking at innovative ways to promote or help coming a more like some value based industry. So I will look into it wasn’t like we’re the first ones about doing. I mean, a company called Payman in America have already five years ahead of us. They already created to foster had that to that company offer that once they buy their insurance company that would buy like a billion dollars within like five years. They’ve already kind of a competitor to always go to a company, try to change the model for 30, 50 years. So I think we already had a bit of a kind of a step forward. It wasn’t like completely out of the blue. This new thing has come out. It was new in terms of technology, what we offering attach to the whole us. But it wasn’t the first time a concept was out there. So I think I had that already, that first step to get this guy’s attention. But I generally believe that if I had an mean, I would see that as some balance and some some need for this product, for their company. And luckily, that worked out really well. So I would say if I had the top 15 companies, I’ll hold them. Maybe eight of them got back to me, maybe 10 them go back to business, actually free to them, go back to me. And then I would say I had meetings with six of them within a month.

[00:38:39] Wow. Let’s get to number sixty nine. Best in the world. I mean, he’s certainly one of the best. One of the best. There’s no doubt about the for me, what really impressed me about the conversation was how open and Frank he was about everything. I mean it definitely wasn’t that he was sort of sort of presenting an image. He definitely wasn’t. And I said to him, what do you love about teaching? And he said, look, let’s face it, there’s a certain pleasure when you put a case up and and people go, wow, there’s a certain ego in it for a teacher of his standing to admit to. It’s something he went through. His whole process is three appointment process before he even gets to to drilling. And it’s a real privilege to have someone of his amazing calibre sit there and just say, as it is, you know, I mean, Prav you talk to a lot of high end, highly street dentists, but Parcel’s the one that they go to when they’re in trouble. You know, you mentioned his name and people just aspire to either be like him or be taught by him or whatever. Right. And and whenever his name’s mentioned, the reason why Stagg often said best dentist in the world question. Yeah. Yeah. It’s because that’s what I tend to hear. Yeah.

[00:40:05] Who am I to judge who the best dentist in the world is. Right. This is what you hear. Right. But the thing from know, I wasn’t present for that episode, but I think you mentioned that he was he was quite humble and sort of real and open about his own shortcomings. Right. And where he felt that, you know, he could improve or where were you know, I don’t know, maybe you want to expand on that. Yeah. Yeah, he was he was talking about how he handles his his his team and and how he’s always kept it very small and and, you know, going from South Africa, where he was trained to the US, where he did his postgrad and the Qinsheng on one of the top dentists and the whole Jerrard, she’s just a beautiful story. But what I really for me was the thing that stood out was how open he was about you. What do you enjoy the most? What’s the bit of it? Is it the treatment plants, like the sort of zoomed into the tooth? Is it the planning part? Is it the social part of actually talking to the patients and getting to that? Is it the teaching or is it the light bulb moment when the students suddenly gets what you say? What was the thing that you love

[00:41:19] The most of your

[00:41:20] Things, all the things that you do?

[00:41:22] And at the end of a big case and the cement, everything that’s always the and off of working and everything goes in, we get to the end and zoning out and making a lasting peace building half an hour myself, Tayside is working with my hands, making a percent joy. That’s probably why sometimes I go overboard, because it’s just that I get into my own world meditating and teaching a lot and it probably feels the ego a little bit. I like the adoration you get from the students when you say things and they look up and say, well, that’s amazing. It does make you feel good that it all

[00:42:02] This and

[00:42:05] A lot of what we do is self-fulfilling.

[00:42:08] Let’s move on to Episode 17, Richard Field. Richard, we both know very well you’ve known him for many years, Bayona and me too. Right. You know, the Academy, he’s been involved in teaching there. We’ve been away to Dubai together and met him at various events and courses. What really stands out about Richard is his quest for perfection. OK, and just producing beautiful dentistry. And I mean, this is not in terms of what I’ve seen with my own eyes, but what will the dentists tell me about his work? Generally, the dentists that have employed in in in their clinics. And the one thing to say is, you know what, with Richard, I can leave him with any patient. And I know he’s going to do a fantastic job. I know it’s going to be properly treatment plant. And I also know that it’s going to be incredibly ethical. Yeah, I know. I can just leave Richard to handle it. And the work is the work is, et cetera. He’s a great young dentist and that’s enough. And that’s what I come away with when I think Richard Field, he’s the kind of guy that you would send your family member to be treated. Yeah. You know, you’d have no qualms about it, even though even though he’s so young, you know, there’s a few of the young ones that Richard Depeche Meely now live, I can see is a few, the young ones where, you know, people say, look, I want a good dentist, but I don’t want to pay Harley Street, although I wish it is always cheaper.

[00:43:46] But, you know, people say, I want a good young dentist. Definitely. He also went through some of his problems. He has, you know, someone like is working with staff again. And he said he would never open a practise, which surprised the hell out of me. He said, I’ve just not made for it. So it’s good that self-awareness goes a long way, too, doesn’t it? But yeah. Yes. And you know what? Some people are blind to all of that. Right. He’s obviously seen the other side and made that conscious decision himself that this is for me. Some people on the other side are blind, completely blind to what was involved. And then it’s sink or swim right when it happens. And look, luckily, a lot of people get through the other end and make a success of it. Right. And it’s how a lot of lot of us have done it as well. You know, you can to that sink or swim. And I’ve been there. You’ve been there. Right. And it’s character building, so. Yeah. And what aspect of it is what drives you? I mean, some people love the planning, but some people loved my car, loved I love the planning part because it makes me feel safe.

[00:44:52] And like you say, I’m quite a defensive dentist. I want to make sure what we’re doing is right

[00:44:59] And it’s explaining that to the patient. Or they might come in

[00:45:02] And say, I want these teeth fixed and we look at the planning so we can fix these teeth, but we need to fix these nine other issues as well. We need to move this here and there. So again, it is maybe

[00:45:13] The Meccano making things fit together,

[00:45:15] But I wouldn’t claim that I know inclusion. But I it’s I really find it satisfying to see things fit together and just see that how how this truth will change this tooth.

[00:45:28] And I sometimes, even

[00:45:29] Though we’re looking at this tooth, we need to sort of involve other other aspects of the market as well. I find that quite satisfying when you when you sort of put together in all the red dots in the right place, I find that quite satisfying.

[00:45:44] Let’s move on to the hit man, Daniel artist. This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story, feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just, you know, skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of him. Yeah. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear and no walks away with completely different human beings. And, you know, I admire that. Really? Yeah. Although although, you know, the head injury part of it is important and it’s not like you didn’t know about the head injury part of it.

[00:47:09] He knew. Well, he knew. He knows. He knows better than all of us what it can happen. But when when you say so, doesn’t that scare you? Is like, I wouldn’t be a fighter if that scared me for the other thing that I walked away with on that episode was a sort of sense of ethics, you know. Yes. I don’t know whether it’s to do with his faith or whatever it was. He seemed to see things in a very sort of simple, I wouldn’t say some simplistic, simple way. And the ethics that he seemed to bring to every situation really impressed me. Really impressed. Yeah. And the thing, you know, stemming from his dad younger days and then his faith, I think his faith plays a big faith is important. But it wasn’t like he was shoving it down your throat or anything. It just the way it felt to me was you say, look, here’s problem X, what do you reckon? And and he would he would just come out with a beautiful way of looking at it, you know, really impressed me, really impressed me. And how much does faith feature in boxing you in belief in thanking for having the opportunity and before you go out there and after you win and the gratitude

[00:48:22] And stuff just just told me about you sort of mindset and beliefs. Yeah. Ah, you know, it definitely I mean, I always believe in being grateful to. Oh my God. And, you know, that’s where I get a lot of my strength, patience. And, you know, you’ve got to be strong not just in boxing, but in life in general. We all have our ups and downs. So, you know, I’ve got a lot more strength through my faith. And any time we have if we go through difficulties and, you know, and boxing has been some things that even for example, I mean, my record is seventeen wins and three losses. All three of my losses were under very controversial circumstances. Is boxing is one of those things. But you’ve got to be strong and rise above it. You know, you’ve got two choices when you get hit with something, you know, with adversity, it’s all about how you respond, you know, if you’re going to be weak to overcome you, you know, and that’s going to be your choice, then you’re not going to be able to propel any further if you’re going to just take on the chin. But like, you know, OK, I’ve been knocked down. I’m going to dust myself off and get back up and push on. And that’s what makes champions.

[00:49:38] That’s what makes people great. People always remember Thomas Edison for inventing the light bulb. How many times did Thomas Edison fail? Countless times, countless times, you know, you know, you will remember that, you know, when you look at an iceberg, you know, destruction beneath the sea, you know, it’s huge this year. It’s almost like a triple what you see at the top. And this all the underneath and all that sort of hard work, dedication, the difficulties that people don’t see through it. Maybe there’s earning is billions today. That is billions. He grew up in a room. He grew up in a place. It’s like, you know, just a small room. There’s about ten people in there. You know, he didn’t grow up with a silver spoon. You know, he worked his way hard in order to obtain the success and earn all that success and wealth that he’s done. And I’ve been very fortunate where we started late, late night sessions with Floyd Mayweather. So another thing that I sort of picked up from him and Danny Williams were doing my fight times close to my fight times. I’ll train at night. So mirrored the time of my fight for circadian rhythms and to develop your timing with boxing. And that’s something also I picked up my school science back as well.

[00:50:53] So in that time. So Floyd Mayweather, he you’d be training at night and then there’d be times where he’d just sit and talk with us to sunrise, you know, just giving us pearls of wisdom, you know? So it’s about how you respond. And faith has given me just the ability to look and analyse things, not just think, you know, look at things beyond what they are. And it’s like when I had my last controversial loss, I was six and three, six wins, three losses, you know, and I remember people looking and thinking, oh, yeah, you know, maybe you know that. So, you know, he can stop. You can carry on. How are you going to carry on someone to carry on? You know, all thanks to God today I’m seventeen and three. You know, I didn’t look back. So I get a lot that, you know, faith strength through, you know, through my faith, you know, and, you know, I get a lot of that strength, you know, through God. And I always pray I’m not I’m not a perfect person. I have my mistakes. But I always I’ll do my prayers and I’ll do my prayers a day, you know, just takes five minutes of my schedule to draw, you know, to just thank my creator remember him and just gives me that moment of just coming out this quick, such, you know, life is so fast, it’s so dynamic.

[00:52:15] And you just get like five, ten minutes out. You just stand before you create. It’s just you and him and you just talk to him, you know, and he just, you know, gives you that solace, that tranquillity, that sort of serenity. And it’s, you know, I you know, that’s why I’m one of the advantages I’ve had been pleased with my and I’ve been able to travel, you know, I love travelling. I love seeing the world. I love nature, you know? And again, you just look at all of those things and you just kind of you know, you remember God, the creator of creation. Just think of, you know, wow, what an engineer, you know, space star, not, you know, not astronomy. And I look at these things and it just it just, you know, it just allows you to have a moment of time and it just gives you just gives us strength and it gives you that, you know, that mental strength that we talk about in boxing, which which you really need. So it plays a big, big, big, big factor in my life and my career for boxing for sure.

[00:53:16] Let’s move on to the next one, which is Elaine Elaine Hally, president, ex president of the VA, in many ways, one of the mentors of lots of people in the Digital Theatre, DSD kind of world. If what stood out for me was just the story of starting a practise in a town, in a town in Scotland and coming in and saying, I’m going to be private from from the beginning and and having this sort of the the the grit to keep on going in that situation back in that day. And if you remember, Prav opening a private practise wasn’t a thing. No. And I think, you know, what I walked away with from that was her against all odds attitude. Yeah, the. I’m not trying to paraphrase, all right, but it was like, screw him, I’m going to make a success of this, right. I’ve got so much conviction in what I want to do. It was it was inspiring. Right. And then and then, you know, being one of the one of the very few women in dentistry at that time who went on to, first of all, open a practise and a practise with a difference. Right. Against all odds. Then go on to become president and then lecture and then teach and act as a you know, be an inspiration to to lots of people, male or female.

[00:54:45] Right. Let’s not try and sort of. Boxer into well, you know, she’s she’s a female Leaders she’s inspired many, many dentists, right? Not not just yes. I mean, it came up then it came up in conversation. The one thing I’d say about her is she carries often the really feminine way. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s possible to be trying to be manly about things, even if you’re a woman. But that wasn’t that where she was coming from at all. You know, it was she was an inspirational leader coming from the other side of of things and sort of the collaborative kind of way of looking at things. But I really like Elaine. She’s she’s one of my favourites. So it was lovely to have her on. So take us through the opening as Scott was quite innovative thing to do. But when people didn’t really open sports, I mean, of course, some did take us through that. I mean, are you the kind of person who jumps into things with full confidence or did you have anxiety about it using your parents money?

[00:55:50] That I didn’t use my parents money,

[00:55:54] Not that they offered, but

[00:55:58] What we did want to do

[00:55:59] Is guarantee. So they had the guarantee, you know, they had to act at the guarantee for the loans from the bank. Yeah. And do I jump into things? I think I think I logically look at the pros and cons. I had a plan and I just took it step by step and kind of didn’t. I’ve never particularly worried too much about what other people think, although then sometimes it comes as a shock when I realise people do think things. And so I got a lot of a lot of stick for opening a practise in a city where I wasn’t known. And I actually got some quite nasty letters from some of the dentists. I was quite naive, I suppose. I did write to everyone saying I was opening a practise single handed practise. I was going to be charging privately for the first examination. It was just the contracts. I’ll change the year that I graduated. So there was a big move in England where I had worked initially for dentists coming out the NHS. Scotland wasn’t moving in that way. So before that you weren’t allowed to mix private and NHS. And I, I started by charging for the full examination and then giving people options. And that was practically I would be really angered a lot of people by doing that. But I just I kept my head down and stuck to my guns and realised very quickly I wasn’t going to survive and an NHS environment because I wanted to be able to offer my patients the best the density had to offer. That’s always been I want my patients to have the choice of the of the best not to say that I’m the best clinically. That was never my that was never my goal. But to make sure that I understood all the different options and to be sure that people had choice, that’s what was important to me.

[00:57:46] Let’s move on to episode seventy three Jazz Jazzy Gulati. What an inspiration. I mean I’ve just joined his telegrammed group Telegram on Telegram. Now because it’s WhatsApp groups completely full, there’s not enough space for it. And while we’ve been talking on this podcast, but there’s been maybe 40 messages on the telegram route, I mean, is someone who’s leading a tribe of geeks. Yeah. And how amazing that he’s managed to sort of package Dental education in this beautiful sort of he he’s so into it and the people that are into him are into it. And there’s a group of dentists out there who I would put them in all of them, and that the sorority royalty is what they call them, who aren’t worried about getting sued. Of course they’re worried, but that’s not their number one thing. The number one thing is getting better, finding out what’s what’s what’s the sort of the latest thing. And and what do people think of this? How do we attack that? And Jazy himself, just his attitude is so, so sort of inspirational. So he’s got me back into dentistry, did whatever the merits of good. I don’t care what anyone says. I’m not. But he makes me want to pick up a drink. Yeah, yeah, yes. You know what? The thing the thing that I walk away with when it comes to jazz is his delivery.

[00:59:14] He delivers with humour. Yeah. As well as well as well. It’s not only humour though, dude. It’s not like it’s not a comedy show. No, I don’t know. But you know, the thing that I walk away, he delivers with humour. It’s not always with humour. Right. And he’s a he’s a real geek. Yeah. Real geeks down on everything. All the all the little bits and pieces he speaks about. And he’s just popped out of nowhere, right. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a household name now. Right. But he just sprung out of nowhere. Right. Just this guy with a with a beard and. A turban popped out of nowhere and then all of a sudden he’s got a show, he’s super geeky, he’s funny. I don’t know if it’s you know, I tend not to follow his Dental geeky ness because there’s no way I understand it. Right. But he’s comical videos that turn up on my Facebook stories and all the rest of it will always tickle me. But I’ll tell you something from on the content story, he’s he’s managed to sort of in business, we would call it vertically integrate so many who are doing a podcast. His podcast turned into a community.

[01:00:23] The community is turned into a course, the course. Now there’s a telegram group, there’s a WhatsApp group. And again, another one who I said to him, tell me about practise. Are you going to open the practise? Because he’s the kind of guy who would do very well opening a practise. You know, he’s good. Good at good at people. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, I’m not going to do a practise, definitely not yet, because I’m fully focussed on the produce Arati and he should be too. But he’s got a long way to go. Got a massive audience in the US now, and I love the fact that that we’re now morphing Dental education into this, you know, this way of doing it. You know, the guy seven years out of Dental school doesn’t have another qualification. And yet he’s inspiring thousands of dentists in all over the world to get better, you know, more power to him. Really like the this of infectious enthusiasm that you’ve got for dentistry. I mean, did you were you a good speaker before? Did people come to you for advice or I mean, you seem to like take it so naturally, you talk to people and you say enthusiasm. You have where did this start? I mean, were you one of these people? I was talking to Basil, he would say, no, he wasn’t top of his class and Dental school, were you? What was your story? Um, well, I was president of the University Dentistry Insights.

[01:01:48] I was always very active in that. I was very used to speaking and something that I was very much involved in. I don’t do the whole I was Mr Basils said I stay away from politics. Are the only two things I don’t talk about in my podcast is religion and politics. I stay away from that stuff. Everything always goes in the fashion industry, but I guess so. I was also without blowing my own horn, I was top of class. I was the first person before. I was very embarrassed in a way to say this. I was like I was very egotistical, but I’ve since had some sort of mind training to to change the way I perceive it, which is basically I was the first person in the U.S. to get one hundred percent in a clear and a final exam. And now I’m proud of the proud to say that. And it was a real something I really worked towards. So I was always aiming to be competitive and top of the class and aiming

[01:02:33] To be one with the community

[01:02:34] In a voice, a leader of some sort. Where did you qualify in Sheffield. Sheffield? You were you were you top of your class in school as well? Like before before I like sex and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was always what I was thinking about the origin because I knew come the podcast, where does it all originate from? And I can pinpoint it to when I was six years old. So if you go back far enough, I’m sure I’m a refugee. I was born in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. I came here when I was six years old in a word of English, and my earliest memory of achievement was in year two at the time. And there was this massive board at the front, the class with everyone’s name on it, and who got 100 percent in the spelling test. So everyone had all these stars every time you get the sense that you get a gold star. So obviously everyone had all these stars and I was the only one without a star. And it went on week by week by week. I never had a star and I just made it my mission that one evening to practise writing these three and four letter words, cat, home ball, that kind of stuff, practise, practise, practise all night. And I’ll never forget that moment. I got my first gold star at age six and from there it was I was addicted. I was addicted to achievement. And that’s been a big driver for me. I just want to constantly do things. I’m one of these guys who has this massive to do list. I’m like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. If I’ve done something I wasn’t on the to do list and put it on the list just to take it off, just get that feeling I’d done something. You know, this is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on

[01:04:09] One with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman,

[01:04:16] Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] When we’re building a website, a business conversation revolves around if somebody calls, you practise and it goes to voicemail. Tell me what happens. Yeah, they get an automated message. Have you got a human phone answering service on the other end? Who takes a message when someone fills out a contact form? Is there an automated follow Payman response? Is there a text message that comes off the back of that? Is there a guaranteed response time? What is that response time? Is there enough that hours response time service, you know? And so we waxed lyrical and we go back and forth just doing a bare brainstorming in terms of what happens next. And that really does guide the user experience.

[00:00:46] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:03] On this episode. We want to talk about digital marketing websites, all of that. I mean, the reason we’re doing it is because I’ve just engaged perhaps company for enlightens the website. And the process has been an eye opener for me. But really, Prav, I wanted to sort of take it round to, you know, not not about sort of our process so much, but more about what happens with dentists when they come to you. It must be a similar process that you’re following. I mean, the types of dentists your customers tend to be people who are pretty well versed already in digital and they kind of want to take it to the next level. What are the things people saying to you when they arrive and say, look, I want a website? Why? Why are they changing their website?

[00:01:49] So let’s let’s just take this back to its grass roots. Right. Is the you know, if somebody is coming to us and saying, I want a website and it’s a whole whole host of reasons, right from I’ve got this, I want something better. It could be I haven’t got anything. And I’ve been thinking about, you know, one of our slides, Hassan Hassan McGeary. Right. The guy should the guy should have had a website a long time ago. Right. He’s in the public eye. He teaches, etc., etc.. And, you know, my conversation with him was very much along the lines of, well, he said he’s been looking for the right person. And when he launches his website, because everyone’s been saying to him, where the hell is your website? Why haven’t you got one? Why haven’t you launched one yet? He doesn’t have a website. No, no.

[00:02:37] How does he sell tickets?

[00:02:39] There’s a course bad website that’s been done somewhere else. And even that is not true reflection of the. Let’s not go there. Yeah, yeah. He hasn’t got a website. Right. So the conversation he had with me was Jean-Noel Prav is a perfectionist, paralysed by perfection, this guy. Right. So he said, I think I’ve he’s found us right. And he’s been through all the usual suspects. Right. In in and outside of our industry. And he’s chosen us. And, you know, we seem to align. And he said when I launched this website. What I want people to think is is not had one before, but, my God, has he arrived yet? And does it speak? Does he speak in the language, in the tone? And does it reflect him personally? And does it reflect him ethically? Does it reflect his work? Does it reflect his TTG methodology to so many things? Right. And and then another client comes to us and says, hey, I want a website because my one needs revamping. OK, I want a website that performs better. This whole thing comes down to and I’ll break it down for dentists. It’s a patient consultation patient comes to you and says, I want a new smile. Right. And it’s your job as a dentist to understand the why. What is it that’s motivating that patient for a new smile? Is it is a functional thing? Is it the fact that they can’t chew into a crusty bread? Is it the fact that they, you know, they haven’t been able to eat a steak, their dentures keep slipping? Is it the fact that they could put their hand with their mouth? Is it the fact that they can’t go on day, socialise, perform at work, whatever? There’s always an underlying why I think a big part of this process, when we talk about websites, what Dental is, what what any client wants, what your team want, Payman is figuring out what the Y is.

[00:04:39] And that comes down to very, very basic sales. OK, so even when we start with this process, there’s a sales process and my understanding of sales is earning the right to make a recommendation. Yeah, and that’s the simple process of sales. Right. So when we talk about, let’s say what you and your team want, we talk about the user experience. We talk about when, you know, the conversation we had on the Zune the other day. You know, we look let’s say we take the above the fold experience on the enlightened website. And the one question I asked is if there was one thing that you would want a dentist to do when they landed here, what would that be? OK. Very, very important question. OK, and then as we scroll down, what’s the next priority thing as we scroll down, what’s the next priority? So take away fancy designs, take away beautiful copy, take away photography, and let’s get down to the, you know, the brass tacks of it all, the grassroots, OK? And walk what you wanted to do functionally, what you wanted to achieve.

[00:05:49] You wanted to book more appointments. Do you want to tell your story? Do you want it to push the message that this is an exclusive club? OK, and so what is it? So the conversation we had pay us what I really want them to do. Is enrolled in my free online training, whitening education, that is the first step I want any dentist to take before moving further down the journey. OK, so it was the Get Me trained piece. Another dentist may say, you know what, I my personal brand, I want to be recognised as the dentists dentist. I want to be recognised as the guy who teaches implant dentistry to a level that involves scientific, peer reviewed backing and literature, but communicates it in a way that’s non jargon because I’m not capable of doing that. So we have a discovery process and, you know, usually over a call, maybe a couple of hours, a couple of sessions, it’s me, my project manager, my senior copywriter, Bob. And we will sit there and we will go through a whole bunch of questions. We will learn about what their goals are, what their objectives are, what’s the voice that they speak in. Yeah. In terms of what is it that their patients want? What is it that your customers want? You know, when we talk about enlightened, we’re not building a website where you start campaigns selling cheap rice.

[00:07:18] A hundred and eighty degrees from there is a premium product. You’re at the top end of the market and you are speaking in that language, OK? And then when I dug deeper into your process and learnt that and know I’ve experienced this myself, you know, I’ve been in your office and there’s been some gel that’s been out there on the side. And I say, what’s happened? And you’ve thrown it in the bin. Right. And I’m like, WCF, you do in there. And you go, well, that gel’s bit out of the fridge. That’s no good to anyone. Right. And it goes straight in the bin. And I’m sitting there thinking, what a waste. And you’re sitting there saying, hey, these are our values, buddy. Yeah. If that’s been out in the fridge for this period of time, it goes in the bin. It’s not going anywhere near my customer. So I’ve experienced the. How do I articulate that on your website so that a dentist understands. But what’s the difference between this experience that you’re delivering and another experience that they may get a, you know, a cheaper price? It’s that. And the same with a dentist when they’re delivering all on four same day teeth treatment or whether they’re delivering porcelain veneers or whatever is we really need to dig into the detail of it. So we go through this discovery process. And this dude,

[00:08:38] Sorry, sorry to interrupt you. What percentage of people who come to, you know, what they’re about and then you must get people who come to you just don’t say I’m a dentist.

[00:08:50] Listen, by the way, I look at it is the vast majority of people who think they know what they’re about. Figure out what they know there about once we’ve had that conversation. Yeah, and and that’s not to do with the fact that we feel that way, that we’ve got all the answers is actually they’ve got the answers. We just need to pull it out of that

[00:09:15] Is what I my feeling about that day was that you’re looking at it from the target perspective. So my target on the let’s say the dentist website is the dentist. So so I say, oh, enlightened, we’ve got our system. We do this. When you keep looking at it from when I’m coming onto this website, how do I feel about it?

[00:09:40] Yes. So what you’ve just said there in my role in this whole thing is to be the chameleon, OK? And so if I’m speaking to a dentist, I want to step into that. I should choose whoever that patient is. And I want to ask them, who am I, how old am I? Where do I live? Where do I hang out? Yeah, and what does my disposable income look like? OK, those sort of things, so I can step into that individual shoes as a chameleon and then start speaking in their voice and see and see if there’s a there’s an alignment. And sometimes we have that conversation and it takes two or three of those attempts to figure out who is the patient or who are those groups of patients. Right. And so when I stepped in the shoes of a dentist for you guys that day, I was stepping in the shoes of a dentist who knows what he’s doing. I was stepping in the shoes of a naive dentist and I was stepping in the shoes of several of my clients, both new and old, experienced and inexperienced with whitening conversations that I have had with them and whitening conversations that you’ve had with them. Right. And then taking all the audience into account. How do we articulate what you want to articulate to them in a language that isn’t Pei’s language, that is your own lexicon, that your team understand, but maybe they don’t. Right. And so in answer to your question, how many people know what they want? There’s a lot of people who think they know what they want. Once we break it down, it’s an education for us and them and think.

[00:11:25] Let’s get to let’s get to tone of voice. Yeah. Because, you know, your process seems to be that its first copy Leaders led first and foremost by what we can to say. Yeah. Is that is so you find that’s the easiest way of doing it or the right way of doing it. But go. Oh, I was going to say, look, we had an in-house copywriter, which we no longer do. And then you’ve got a couple of superstrong copywriters, dude. I mean that tone of voice question short. So surely you did Rona’s website here and and you also did Hassans website.

[00:12:04] You make doing assessment process in the process. Yeah.

[00:12:08] Yeah. But do you find that you I mean, I know. Put your copyrightable to absolute star, but can he chameleon himself into into being Rona’s voice and, you know, young fun, you know, lady and also Hassans voice and be different enough every time. I mean, he’s having to do that week in, week out

[00:12:31] The somebody’s way better than I can possibly imagine. Yeah. And it’s amazing, you know you know, the experience I went through before hiring Bob. OK, yeah. And how many frogs I needed to kiss along the way. And and my look, I can write well OK, I’m an OK writer. And, you know, one of the prerequisites was that somebody who writes for us and us has to be able to write and exceeded my expectations. Right. So Bob has got this ability to be able to have an in-depth conversation with someone and distil it down to what that person wants. Let me just give you a couple of examples. We’ve talked about Rohner and we’ve talked about Hassan. Yeah. So I’m just going to it’s going to bring those two experiences up on my screen. Hassan is a work in progress. Wrona is a a work comp.. OK, so if we look at this and we just start reading the headlines of Rona’s Right. From a boutique practise in the heart of Kensington and Chelsea trailblazing, Dr. Rhona Iskander is shaking up dentistry with a fresh approach to small transformations. Her modern cosmetic style has earned a legion of loyal fans both at her London clinic and online, where her signature hashtag, Chelsie Look, is Instagram’s famous.

[00:14:04] Favore is also seen Rohner attract a who’s who of celebrity clients while becoming the media’s first choice voice on burning Dental issues. Dot, dot, dot. OK, so that’s Rohner tone of voice, a stepped into Roen issues. We spent a lot of time interviewing and we’ve got that out. Let’s flip to Hassan. What’s the science of new possibilities? I couldn’t be a successful cosmetic implant dentist without clinical research and lecturing. It’s all of those things together that motivate me to be a better clinician. Consumate implants ology when dentists want to study the art and science of implant dentistry. Dr Hassan Megaera is the educator of choice. Hassan’s work as a cosmetic implant dentist, researcher and educator has cemented his name amongst Implants College’s leading lights whilst helping to define and advance the field. Dot, dot, dot. OK, you can see there that we have two tones of voice that are 180 degrees apart, and I think I’m confident enough to say without disrespect to Hassan or disrespect to Rohner, that Rona’s patients won’t go to see Hassan and Hassan’s patients won’t go to see Roanne, OK, that they will polarise and attract and detract patients appropriately just through that.

[00:15:38] So, yeah, you know what? Do what we were impressed as a team, what we were impressed with with him, as was how quickly he managed to immerse into what we were saying. So, yeah, not not in this conversation in the previous one and how long it took for me to get my in-house copywriter to immerse in enlighten. You know, it could have probably months. And Bob did it within one Zoome call, immersed himself and got the essence of it. But the other the other thing. That’s one thing. The other thing is there wasn’t a single word that isn’t necessary, you know, like the Naked Chef or whatever there is. There is a single single ingredient in there. That’s Domun is almost a minimalist on words is,

[00:16:26] You know, what he says to me, right. Is when he’s editing my work. Yeah. He takes what I’ve said and applies brevity to it. Yeah. It says it in less words. Yeah. Articulated in a much better way, but still in my voice. Yeah. And I think there’s a lot to be said for trimming things back, shorter sentences and making things punchy.

[00:16:50] Or perhaps. Look, we’ve got the words now, but surely before the words, there’s a skeleton that says, you know, the website is going to be this is going to be the basic scaffolding we’re going to build on about this. That is the word, literally.

[00:17:04] So, I mean, the first thing in the in discovery before we talk sitemap. Right. And what that is, is what was the architecture of the site? And we start with homepage. So what are the key for six elements that you want to communicate once somebody lands on your homepage? What’s the priority of those four, six, eight elements in terms of what’s going to stay above the fold? What’s going to come next? What the key headlines that we’re looking at and what’s the key information that we want to get across? OK, this is a home page skeleton. Then we move on to, well, what in the pages are they? So there may be a team page, there may be an individual profile page, there may be a section on orthodontics or GDP or so or cosmetic braces or missing teeth. And then we go into like single implants, implanted dentures, fixed teeth, immediate loading, etc, etc. and all of that stuff. So we sit down and figure out right at the beginning of this project, what’s our scope. Yeah. Yeah. How many pages. What are those. What the page structure, what are they going to contain. And then we dig into the words. OK, so, so and part and parcel of that process when when I, when I spoke to you about tone of voice and learning prior to that call, will spend a lot of time reading their Facebook and Google reviews. So you would be so surprised at what you learn from the patient’s voice about the dentist. OK. OK. And listening to how their own customers talk about them has a huge impact on our view of things and then helps to shape the questions during that discovery call, which is really, really important. So so, you know, we get to the point where we have the copy ready to go.

[00:18:54] Ok, OK, so so we’ve got a basic sort of architecture of what the site is going to show. We’ve got the copy and the copy breaks down into, you know, hero copy bullets and details, right? Yeah. Then I guess you need what images

[00:19:08] Then it comes down to videos, assets. Right. So what assets? And it depends on the client. I mean, we’re fortunate enough and busy enough now to be able to specify what we want from a client before we agree to proceed. OK, so one of the things and look, this is has been a an evolution in our own business, right? So we want to produce something that we’re proud of. We want to produce something that clients are proud of. So we almost entirely insist on a photo shoot and we inform our client about this before even taking them on, because what we wouldn’t want to do is then say, OK, now let’s go and find some stock photography on Shutterstock or iStock or one of these Stopford and then ends up looking like every other website. Right. So we go through this process of working with a photographer, either one of us or somebody local to them. And we produce curated what’s called a shot list for the website.

[00:20:10] So we the shoot

[00:20:11] Before the shoot. Right. And this is the most valuable part of the photography process. Right. A photographer will just go in there, trigger happy, presses button a thousand times and deliver a load of photographs. What I’ll do is I instruct that photographer on which shots I want, which angle you.

[00:20:30] Are you the creative director

[00:20:32] On this piece? Yeah. Yeah, on this. Prelinger Yeah, absolutely. And what I will say about that is because we’ve done so many shoots, we actually provide the photographer with a visual shot list. So we say, hey, we’ve got this picture here, put my other dentist in here, stick a nurse there, and I want a wide angle with clinical background.

[00:20:55] Ok, yeah. Yeah. And because you’ve used the same photographer a few times, you guys speak each other’s language. Another.

[00:21:01] Yeah, yes. But we, we, we’ve recently worked with I’d say probably three or four photographers we’ve never worked with. And you’re not. The feedback from the photographer has been that was the easiest shoot I’ve ever done. If all of my clients were like you, yeah. It would be a dream because you told us exactly what you wanted. So they went in ready to put their finger on the trigger and shoot exactly what we wanted. And they had a shot to check off to set doneness, doneness. Doneness. Got this.

[00:21:29] Yeah, that’s how we do it with with our shoots too. So. Yeah. OK, so now you’ve got you’ve got some, some pictures of the practise and the dentist and so on. Yeah. Tell me about UX Prav.

[00:21:43] So user experience is, I think, probably one of the most important parts of of of the journey when building or putting together a Web based experience. And, you know, right at the beginning of this conversation, you know, I said to you, well, what did we speak about when we had that call? And it’s above the fold. What is the one thing that you want your customer to do? You want them to click on a button to sign up to your free online whitening education, webinar training? Call it whatever you want. Right. And so sometimes it can be it can be really interesting when having this conversation with dentists and they say, I want a book online, but I want a smile. May or upload your selfie. I want a contact form. I want a phone number. I want a floating bar that says, are you a dentist? Refer a patient, write. And then we go back to basics and we look at their existing website and I say, get me some data. Do you know your book online bookseller that sits on your website? Can you tell me over the last three months how many patients booked online and out of those patients? The bottom line, how many we knew and how many were existing patients? OK, and lead with that day so we can make some user experience decisions on what should appear? Well, yeah, it’s not like every website should have a book online at this or that, because you get to the point where you experience this thing called choice overload. Right. Given too much choice, they get confused and they don’t know what to do.

[00:23:22] Prav, it must be a nightmare with dentists because they’re so busy and they haven’t got people to do this job for them. I mean, how the hell do you get all the assets and all the info and all the data from them that you must have issues? Right.

[00:23:36] In some respects we do. Right. There’s one thing that we discussed before working with the client is we set out very clearly what we expect from them and we tell them what they should expect from us. Right. We ask for the contact details of those individuals are going to facilitate this process. And in some cases, it’s then in the majority of cases, is this receptionist that PM or this TCR, OK, who’s going to handle this piece of the work? So as long as we can delegate responsibility, it’s fine. The other thing that we’re very mindful of is dentists are very time poor and short attention span. On the whole, I’m not going to put them all into one box, but on the whole, that’s what we experience. So how have we designed our process to ensure that is easy to manage? OK, so just go back to the copy. Once we’ve once we’ve written the home page copy, Bob, we’ll ask for 10 minutes of their time, lunch hour, whatever. Right. And he will spend that 10 minutes reading the copy to the dentist. Close your eyes. I’m going to read to you now, OK? Just like you would read a story to a kid, that process in itself accelerates our web development process hugely because if you email that word document to the dentist and then that in your own time, get back to me.

[00:25:00] Yeah, just add two weeks to the project, comfortably insulated in that a couple of emails and a had a chance to read the copy. Have you got round to it. Yeah. Just give me 10 minutes at this time of books and with your PM at this point we read it, we have an instant feedback rather than over six emails. Yeah. Boob job done. Rinse and repeat the same process for the other pieces. Right when we go, when we are moving forward a bit. But when we move over to design. Yeah. What I’m going to present is the MVP, right. The minimal viable product to the dentist. One step outside is your home page. This is what it looks like is the UX. This is what that looks like. This is how it functions. Let’s not talk about the team page. Let’s not talk about your Invisalign page. Your implant pages.

[00:25:54] Are you is the home page your actual home page or is a version of it? It will be a witness. So when you say MVP, though, will it look like it will look correct?

[00:26:09] Correct. It will almost be. It will be a graphical wireframe of the home page,

[00:26:16] But it won’t be working.

[00:26:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That includes photographs and stuff. But it won’t be coded. It will not be coded. Right. So a prototype. But the Boompa in this whole process is that we want to make sure that every single step of this process that the dentist has got the minimum amount of work to do to make a decision, OK, and when we go down that decision making tree, there’s two options. Do you prefer this or this? What do you think about this option or this option? What do you think about this list? The same applies to booking appointments for patients Monday or Tuesday. I’ll take a Tuesday morning or afternoon. I’ll take an afternoon. I’ve got a four o’clock or five o’clock. I’ll take the five o’clock great books and tell the patient to pick their own times. Yeah, see, in 20 minutes, you still haven’t bought the appointment yet. So we need we lead that conversation and we guide our clients along along the right path. But take us back. Four or five years ago, this whole process was a disaster. I you know, web development projects, emails, feedback, emails, feedback, mistakes, all of that. And I’d like to say that, you know, we’ve honed our process and after every single projects that have what’s called a post-mortem, so we sit down as a team and say, OK, so what were the positives? What were the negatives? What could have we done better? How could have our process been improved, et cetera, et cetera? Right. And who needs some more training on this than the other? And then the next one’s better and better and smoother and so on and so forth. Right. It’s about continually improving. So what do you want? So we’re going back to this thing. What do you want that patient to do? OK, now if I find out,

[00:28:05] What do people say? I mean, people say, I want to. I want to. I want the patient to contact me.

[00:28:10] Absolutely. OK, so then we go down the route of, OK, so what’s priority, phone calls or emails, OK?

[00:28:18] Do some people say email?

[00:28:20] You have a lot of people say I’m not losing it because, you know, prior to that, we’ve had a conversation about their reception. Yeah, we’ll have dug in to say, OK, I’m going to ring your practise 10:00 a.m. What are the odds that someone’s going to pick up? In fact, sometimes during those calls, we’re on a Zoome call similar to this. And I’ll pop their practise number into my mobile and I’ll ring the practise. And I say, look, you’re going to experience what your practise are about to deliver to me right now. Right? Just hot seated there and then more often than not goes through to voicemail. OK. And that in itself, you know, it really does open up, you know, a sense of reality for that, for their own dentist practise or whatever. And so we’ve got to think about, if you missed the call, what’s the experience? OK, if you get the contact details, what’s the experience, what happens after and user experience? You’ve got your your question about user experience is the one we’re building a website, a business conversation revolves around. If somebody calls, you practise and it goes to voicemail, tell me what happens if they get an automated message? Have you got a human phone answering service on the other end? Who takes a message when someone fills out a contact form? Is there an automated follow Payman response? Is there a text message that comes off the back of that? Is there a response, a guaranteed response time? What is that response time? Is there enough that hours response time service? And so we waxed lyrical and we go back and forth just doing a bare brainstorming in terms of what happens next. And that really does guide the user.

[00:30:05] It hit me, hit me, hit me with a gold gold standard. If you could have everything you know fully, you know, you’ve got you’ve got all the resources in the world. What’s the gold standard for the form? Phil comes in? What happens next?

[00:30:25] Ok, so the phone still comes in on the phone, so what I want to do is ask for depending on the type of phone, right. And depending on what your goal is. Right. Do you want. Low volume. High quality, do you want high volume, medium quality? You’ve got someone to process that. So once we’ve been through that and let’s assume they just want volume for now and we can talk about other ways of generating lower volume, higher quality. Right. But let’s say they just want high volume. So the minimum date the High want to see is a name and email address. A mobile number and then whatever they’re interested, how can we help? What would you like to change? Something like that? OK, so we get those pieces of information and then the first thing that should happen is a text message goes back to that patient saying, hey, Prav, sorry,

[00:31:26] Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. If the person doesn’t fill out one of those full fields, he can he still send it or

[00:31:34] Know that those would all be required fields.

[00:31:37] But doesn’t that put some people off then or you don’t care.

[00:31:40] Don’t care, because for me, I would say that you

[00:31:43] Want the minimum

[00:31:45] Buddy, that’s that is like the bare bones minimum, a mobile number and an email. Yeah, OK. It’s a barebones if I’m just collecting email, then it’s a lead magnet or something like that. Right. And I’m sending some automation off the back of that and I’ll get the mobile number later. Yeah, but that’s the bare minimum. OK, so, so

[00:32:03] Suddenly it comes in,

[00:32:05] That lead comes in, they get an instant text message. Hey Prav. So they put my first name from the name field. And so if I put Prav Solanki in there, the software will look for Prav space rejects. Take my first name and insert that in the text message. Right. A Prav. Thanks for your Dental implant enquiry. This is joal a kiss Dental. When would be a good time to talk. Questionmark. And that’s fully automated, fully automated now if that patient then texts back. Straight away, straight away. Step one was the most important thing when we talk about enquiries, right, is starting a conversation, right? You have just started a conversation with someone and somebody responded. When you send an email to someone, what is the one action you want them to take? Respond. Yeah, not book an appointment. Just respond. Yeah. When you say hello to someone, what you want them to do, say hello back. OK, that’s all we’re looking to do is start a conversation so that text message conversation starts. OK, is that person somebody who wants to respond on text or have this mini conversation on text call. So, so we go back and forth with one of our team and they may get them booked in.

[00:33:27] In the meantime, we remember the first one was an automated one. The patient responded now. Now the team member gets on her phone or somewhere. So alert and alert and she comes back and says, starts talking, starts talking to us, finding out about them.

[00:33:43] Yeah. So they engage some nice some may not respond. OK, yeah. At the same time, at the same time, an automated email response goes to the patient. Hey Prav, thank you for enquiring about Dental implant’s here at our practise. We love changing patients lives through implant dentistry is Joanne story. She was southbury as a loose Dental aware of the many years and bla bla bla bla bla.

[00:34:14] We really look into it. So, so, so, so, so. So was there a drop down that said I’m interested in dental implants?

[00:34:22] No.

[00:34:22] Bellison So how, how did the automation know it was an implant.

[00:34:27] So two things. Two things. Number one, sentiment analysis. Yeah. And number two, I’ll talk to you about it in second. And number two. Is that phone set in the Dental implant page? Yes, we see it seems so strange. All right. But so if I’m stuck on a Dental implant page and enquiring about dental hygiene. Yeah. So here’s the piece. The if I’m going to order some off the back of an implant page, then if I’m going to hedge my bets on that enquiry’s implant related nine out of 10 times, I’ll be right. Probably nine point five. So that’s how that’s how we know. Yes. So an automated email goes out, tells them about who we are, what we do, what our experience is. And by the way, here’s some social proof, OK? Case study, video, embedded, Google Review, whatever, just to share some social proof, OK? It also speaks to the fact that a member of our team will be with you shortly. To specifically answer your question, what’s really important is automation is fantastic. OK, it’s brilliant. OK, but you cannot replace the human element. OK, so the human then comes in at a later date, a later time, and then speaks to the nature of what that patient’s issue is. It might be a phobia. It may be something to do with a loose denture, whatever. They may have a price query, whatever that is. And, you know, we could do a whole episode on Just Communi, the digital communication piece, right? Yeah.

[00:36:10] So in general, in general, in the practises that you work for and in your own practises, that human is is one person, irrespective of what the enquiry is about or if it’s an implant enquiry, somehow the right human gets onto that.

[00:36:27] So so in my place we’ve got three people who who do that full time. Three full time. Three full time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now. Those three people have had product knowledge training so that they know implant dentistry, orthodontics, general andoh as well as each other. Part of their training has has involved spending time in surgery, seeing these procedures right at the beginning.

[00:37:02] And some of them, some of them who Dental nurses as well,

[00:37:05] Some of them are either Dental nurses or maybe, you know, in some clinics apart. And Dental nurses have sort of graduated from that role. But as I said right in the beginning. Right, the sales process of sales is just earning the right to make a recommendation. Right. How on earth can you make a recommendation if you haven’t witnessed or experienced or seen what you’re capable of delivering? Right. So a big part of this process is training, making sure that your team know the ins and outs of what you’re talking about. Right. When someone speaking about Invisalign and give you a simple example. Right. When a patient asks about an attachment. Right. I’ve heard I’ve heard this with my own ears. So we spend a lot of time listening to recorded calls between patients and our team. OK, she rings up and says, hey, you know, I’m interested in this line, but I’ve heard about these attachments that have to fit to the T. And my team member turns around and says, what catchments? Right. When the patient is educating you about your own product, yeah. Something’s going wrong. Right. But that is not the fault of that individual, right. That’s that’s our fault. As business owners and Leaders know, it’s in our team on that process. Right. To that education piece that I think when we talk about Praksis growth, one of the key areas is education. Yorty. Yeah.

[00:38:35] And education and enlightened when we’ve got, you know, leads and customers. Yeah. So Dental practise the way that would be a lead so far because they haven’t yet become a patient. Yeah, correct. For us we have a process from lead to customer. That’s the CRM customer relationship management process. It’s all there. Yeah. Emails get shut off and all that. What do they used. I mean Sofra Vixen’s and things haven’t got that in place if they

[00:39:06] Know they haven’t. And look, we when I started, you know, when I started out in dentistry probably 15 years ago, this was a problem I wanted to solve. We started solving it with spreadsheets. Then we moved to Google Sheets. We had a traffic light system, you know, so and so the whole process becomes unmanageable. Right? Then you get CRM systems like Infusionsoft Drive, Dangaioh, whatever right is. There’s all sorts of shapes and flavours of them, but nothing ever quite like the box. And it’s a long story short, once again, we could probably do a whole episode on this, but I’ll quickly skip over it is that we developed our own custom CRM system that manages the entire digital patient journey in a way that was mapped out in my head. And that was that was definitely served my practise incredibly well in terms of growth and some of our top, top end clients as well in terms of growth, because in order to be able to employ something like that, you need the problem first.

[00:40:11] So what does it what’s the main? The main problem it solves is that it keeps the team and and the business owner aware of where everyone is on that path from becoming from a lead to a customer.

[00:40:23] So there’s a few key things. And I think I’ll be able to highlight this is just one example. OK, yeah, I’m a patient and I’m at the process in the journey where, hey, I’ve got loose dentures. They piss me off, you know, I can’t eat what I want, but I know nothing about implants. I’ve heard just heard about just seen on Facebook. So I fill out a form. I’m not quite ready to jump to make the investment and I’m actually not ready to speak to a human being about it. Right. So I’ve just I’m not chameleon who stepped into the shoes of that one individual is at that stage in the sales cycle. And what happens is that I send an email and some salesperson rings me up, leaves me a voicemail, I ignore it. They send me some cases. I think, oh, this is interesting. I’m going to jump on Google, find out a bit more. Still not ready to make an appointment. Still already I learn about price maybe at some point within a two to three week period. I have a phone call with someone still not ready to come in and speak to a human being about it. I’m embarrassed. Whatever. And then six months later, I think, you know, my son’s getting married. Yeah, I want to be able to eat at his wedding. Yeah, anything could be an event that triggered me right. Of steps into the shoes. That ain’t right. But guess what? You know, that practise that I was in touch with six months ago, they shared stories with me, the shared cases and content in a non-intrusive way. Yeah, the team have been trained to be really gentle in terms of their approach.

[00:41:55] And now I’m going to pick up the phone and go in and see Dr. Bidjara. I’m going to have that consultation. I’m going to learn more about the process and the funding and the finance. And I’m ready to rock and roll is if the team hadn’t stayed in touch with me, I may have jumped back onto Google or Facebook if. The team hadn’t stayed in touch with me, I might I may have gone to another team, OK? And in the same respects, if the team hadn’t got in touch with me, you know, there’d be a whole new consideration journey. Right. So what is the CRM system doing? Is staying in touch with the Payman automatically in an automated fashion is prompting my team to stay in touch with that patient. But it’s allowing us to do that at scale because I have just given you one example of a single patient with a single problem at a particular stage in the buying cycle. Multiply that by numerous stages, different treatment modalities. A thousand enquiries, then you got a problem on your hands, right? And so that is the problem the CRM system fixes. And what I’ll tell you what usually happens in busy practise is they get so complacent because they’re busy, the detail of the individual disappears and gets pushed to the side. Well, let me tell you something that we have patients who contacted us 12, 18 months ago who then come in and spend in excess of 30, 40 thousand pounds on July each, implant dentistry just because we were bothered to stay in touch. Yeah, and that is a huge loss when you multiply it across the board. Solanki question.

[00:43:54] I love that. I love them. So now let’s imagine, Duga, that the patient contacted you, was contacted back. You did the content thing where you kept in touch with them. They decided to come in. They saw the dentist. The dentist made a recommendation for a twenty thousand pound plan. And they say, I want to think about it. Beautiful things, beautiful, but a lot of energy getting to this point, haven’t we

[00:44:25] Met huge amount of energy, right? So at this point, what are that what are those patients objections? Right. The biggest mistake we make either is clinicians, ticos whoever’s managing that process right. Is not getting to the bottom of the why. Yeah. Is it a price. Is someone else making that decision for you. Is it perhaps not the right time. Have I not provided you with all the information that you need to make an informed decision. Is there something missing here? Yeah. Have I articulated this in some kind of jargon, a lexicon you don’t understand here? Have you or anyone else got any unanswered questions? So let’s assume that piece has been taken care of and they still need to go away and think about it. OK, there is a whole follow up process.

[00:45:18] Is that is that the software as well? The same software, correct?

[00:45:20] Correct. Correct. So let me just describe the journey that it handles from the first interaction of getting their contact details up until the point where they’re referring their friends and family members post treatment and leaving a Google stroke Facebook review. OK, and every step an interaction in between, OK. And and in the ideal world, the dentist figures it out there. And then but let’s say that doesn’t happen. Right? And they go away and they escape. OK, always see that when a patient walks away from the clinic not having said yes, you’re not now or if they don’t say no always means maybe later. Yeah, it’s a philosophy I’ve applied to all aspects of my life, including marrying the woman of my dreams. Yeah, not now, maybe later. And so, you know, what is that process in that follow up afterwards? That is just the start of the sales process again. OK, now my team will say, hold on a minute. I’ve called this patient four times. I’m pissing them off. Yeah, it’s winding them up. They said they’re not ready. They said they’re not. So then what do we do? We come up with a library of excuses, a library of reasons to bring that patient up. So what happens is that a patient goes away. The first one is, hey, Mr. Smith, can you just give us some feedback on your consultation? Was there anything that you found confusing, anything you didn’t understand? Or would you like to come back in and have another conversation, let’s say that goes nowhere, and then a week later, they get a phone call and it’s Hajja one here from the practise again, you know what I forgot to give you when you left the practise our PDF guide to same day teeth.

[00:47:17] It’s a full step by step approach. It’s got some patient experience that if I got your permission to just send that to you. Yeah, second contact, OK, third contacts, another time lag. There has been and it’s Mr. Smith. We’ve just finished treatment on Sean. And Sean really reminded me of you. I’ve got these photographs. And with your permission, I’d love to be able to send them to you, by the way, if you’ve got any questions. OK, so when my team come back to me and say, hey, we’re really winding patients up now with our follow up, I see that as a challenge. I step into that patient’s shoes. I think how can I maximise the volume of contacts without winding that person up and sounding to saleslady and continually seek permission and increase rapport with every contact? Yeah, yeah. And it’s just a process, right? It’s been an evolution. So it just develops and develops and develops. And, you know, the most important part of this we should keep coming back to is the team training. Yeah. Yeah. I want everyone might be able to deliver that message in the same way.

[00:48:35] What about what about the dentist? But I mean, is there an emotionally intelligent type of dentist who understands why that patient isn’t going ahead? And then the opposite kind of dentist says, hey, I did it, I talked about it, and I don’t know why they don’t come in and they don’t get to train dentists, do we?

[00:48:54] Do we do. And what you know, whether it’s on a one to one coaching basis or we come in and fix the team or whatever, but a big piece of that comes down to what we discussed at the beginning of this call where you said when a dentist comes to you for a website, do they already know what they want? OK. And the big thing is they don’t know what they don’t know. And the same thing about this whole consultation process, some of them saying, hey, I went through the questions to ask them. I did this, I did this, and I did this in a robotic manner. Yeah. I did everything I could have done during that consultation. But when we when we break it down to to the core elements and figure it out, sometimes you find little gaps and holes. Right. Sometimes you figure out that. You know, the reason why this patient came into practise was nothing to do with implant dentistry. It was to learn if that dentist is going to handle their phobia sensitively. Yeah, the implant dentistry was just an excuse. Yeah. And it’s figuring out that these some dentists are far better skilled at this, you know, than than others.

[00:50:04] And for others, it’s just a learning, training and evolution process. But. If you think as a dentist, you can turn up to a one day or a two day course. Learnt sales ethic or whatever it is, yeah, and some great trainers out there, great trainers who can teach you the, you know, the key elements. Right. And then go in and deliver that to a high standard the next day. And carry on doing that. You’re kidding yourself. Yeah, it’s like anything, right, learning a new skill you need to keep repeating, you need to continue the training process. OK, so the clients that we’ve seen who have excelled really well have been those that who’ve invested in themselves, continually believed in that and then gone on to grow. And then it becomes second nature. And and then those team members go on to train other team members internally. Right. You always need an external person. Once you get it, you get it. And then you can go on to be the ambassador within your own practise.

[00:51:10] All right. But so I’ve got a website. I’m really good at sales because I know how to sell. And it’s second nature now. And I’ve got a good team that you’ve trained for me and I’ve continued training. I’ve got the software now. I’m looking to massively scale because I want to buy practises around the corner and I want to I want to be like, you know, the guy now then what’s what’s what am I thinking now as far as the thing turns into like a scaling story? Let’s talk about ad adverts, social media, Google. What’s the split would you recommend between social ads and and pay per click? Does it differ depending on the location, this sort of thing?

[00:51:52] And this is the biggest misconception that most Dental stuff. Right, is the statement that you’ve just made. I want to scale how much do I need to spend on marketing, how much on Facebook, how much on Google, blah, blah, blah? Right. Scaling in itself is a business problem that you need to solve before marketing. OK, that involves people, processes, execution, strategy and marketing. All right. So that what you just said there is literally classical everyday conversations I’m having with potential clients or existing clients. I want to grow on a scale. OK, so the question I ask them is this. Tomorrow I’m going to deliver a hundred new enquiries into your practise. Talk me through who’s going to handle them? How are they going to be handled? On average? Every is going to involve fifteen minutes to twenty minutes of processing time. Have you got the human power to do that at the moment. OK, and then how many more patients do you want? How much time do you have, do you have the dentists to deliver that in the right treatment modalities. And then once we fixed and figured out that piece, OK, then we go back to the marketing phase and say, right, OK, so we need to do we need to fill six hours of implant dentistry chair time. How many consultations does that look like? How many enquiries do I need to generate to deliver that, how much talk time have we got with the team, the CRM team in managing them? And then work backwards. OK, and then we can then we can confidently say, you know what, if you want to send 80 cases over the next two months or three months or whatever, whatever that number is and time period is, this is what we need to do to deliver it.

[00:53:53] It’s very interesting. So each each person is a totally different answer to that, to those questions, depending on the sort of bandwidth, basically completely.

[00:54:02] And look, as an agency, if I turned around and said, hey, no problem, I’ll deliver you 50 enquiry’s. Yeah. Your team can handle it. That’s your problem. Yeah. Shit leads, good leads, whatever your problem. And then they get to the other end and say, well, how many more date cases have you done over the last three months? And it’s like two. Yeah. And I tell what we’ve delivered is three hundred leads. Where the hell have you been up to. Yeah. Whose fault is that. Where did that go wrong.

[00:54:34] You I remember having this conversation with you two, seven, eight years ago, and you used to blame the dentists at that 100 percent, but it seems like nowadays you’ve taken on that mantle yourself. You know, when someone says to you, I want a website and you say it’s a lot more of you. This is the kind of thing you’re talking about.

[00:54:58] Right, because I’m a practise owner now. Right. And seven, eight years ago was. Yeah. So I’ve got an appreciation of what happens in that black box when those cogs are turning. And I feel a sense of almost feel a sense of responsibility for delivering success. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to be more involved. You know, that’s part and parcel of our unique difference in the way that we operate. And and all of that has come through in education of being a practitioner, seeing those problems, making lots of mistakes and trying to fix them

[00:55:35] And even even

[00:55:37] To present day. We’re tweaking things and making mistakes all the time and fixing them and then and then passing that on to our clients where we can.

[00:55:45] Ok, so let’s move on. Let’s move on. I’ve given you the answer to all those questions. I’ve hired the right people and now I want to I want an influx of patients. What questions do you ask me regarding OK, I say to you, OK, what kind of patients do we want? I’m looking for clearer Leaders whitening, a lime bleach blonde type patients.

[00:56:08] Mm hmm. All right.

[00:56:09] You what are you going to start to ask me the locations around my practise where the rich people live? How are you going to.

[00:56:18] There’s an element of that, but it depends on. So once again, in the questioning process, what type of patient do you want to attract? OK, are you OK? So so. So that’s OK. So are you the dentist who wants the discerning patient who will pay six K for straightening and you will do you will go above and beyond and spend more time with that patient or do you want to stack them in a two nine or two.

[00:56:44] Eight six. I want six.

[00:56:48] You want six. OK, so then comes in terms of the marketing piece. OK, comes back to the copy. What is our web copy say. What is the landing page say. What does the how does the advert speak to that patient. Right. So advert A vs. adverb adva a cheat. OK, yeah. Today we’re hosting an Invisalign Open day and on this day we are giving away

[00:57:13] A bunch free this free that free this

[00:57:16] Year Rollergirl because this is the best deal that will never be repeated again until next month. OK, yeah. So either A at the B meet Dr. Hughes. Who was honed his training skills on Harley Street for the last 25 years, patients travel across the country to have an experience dentistry with him. Those discerning patients want picture perfect results, demand the best materials are generally time poor and want appointments fitted around them

[00:58:00] To totally different patients,

[00:58:02] Completely different patient, completely different patient. Right. So what are we looking at? Cosper Enquiry A vs. B? What do you think the difference is? It’s mental. It’s huge. OK. But then let’s look at the cost per processing enquiry. Do you want to process 200 enquiries that came in cheap or do you want to process 10 enquiries? We’re having really positive conversations with discerning patient. You can have longer conversations and they’re not slipping through the cracks. All right. So it really does come down to what what you want. You want the six cases. You want the two. Nine, OK, how will we go in? What was the language piece going to be? What’s the targeting going to look like? So when you talk about you target affluent areas. Right. So then we look at where are the pockets of affluence around that practise? How far are patients willing to travel? Where are the private schools? OK, let me stick a pin point on that private school and target moms, because if I target moms and I pinpoint that around that private school, the odds are it probably got kids there that targeting works really, really well, by the way, especially for children’s private orthodontic campaigns

[00:59:21] Can

[00:59:23] Push that to one side. Whatever tactic we use. You know, when it comes down to the brass tacks of marketing, who are we speaking to? What language are we speaking to them in? And then what? Marketing does not necessarily have to be about discounted dentistry, of course.

[00:59:41] And don’t get me

[00:59:42] Wrong, it works. Yeah, the option A works and it’s great to scale and I use it in my own practise. So I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it, but you need the infrastructure to deal with it.

[00:59:55] And so where are you at regards pay per click. Are you still doing the.

[01:00:01] It may and it delivers phenomenal results. Right. We let let’s just look at you know, if we just compare social to paid search, we’re talking Google ads vs. Facebook stock. Instagram ads. Right. Yeah, Facebook and Instagram ads are intrusive. Yeah. The reason I will jump on Facebook or Instagram is to record a video about me trying to lose weight or fasting or see what Payman is up to, what many small make over or whatever. I want to know what my buddies are up to. I want to know what my mates are doing. I don’t jump on Facebook or Instagram to find my next dentist. That’s not my intention. OK, any ad that I see is targeting me. My behaviour and my attributes, my location and Facebook know more about me than I know about myself. So those ads are very targeted but intrusive. I may not necessarily be in the market for that at that point.

[01:00:56] Ok, you say that, but it’s it’s even more clever than that, isn’t it? Because if you haven’t bought or haven’t pushbuttons, it doesn’t send you as many ads. And if if we if you have it does

[01:01:09] The A.I. and the smartness behind that is beyond mine in your comprehension. Let me just put it like that, OK, it’s super, super smart. Push it. Also pushing all that to one side. The experience is intrusive.

[01:01:24] Yeah, it’s well there’s a push processor approach. Yeah. I get it.

[01:01:28] Yeah, it’s intrusive. I jump on Google and I say implant Dental is near me. Yeah. Those are my penis implant dentist near me. An ad pops up that says your local five star implant dentist hundred and fifty five Google reviews, balkwill free video consultation, something like that. I click on that. There’s some congruency between the ad that I’ve clicked on, on the page that I’ve landed on. I fill out the form, I ring the number, I get attached. We go through this process and I can right the hit rate, the conversion rate of somebody who converts through Google ads versus Facebook. It’s a much easier process. Yeah, quality is higher, but the cost of desire to usability is higher. But there’s a neat little trick that you can do, which is that if somebody has landed on your page via Google and you can retarget them on Facebook and Facebook and. Yeah, yeah. And that works. And I pull up face words. Yeah, it’s Facebook and outwits mixed in,

[01:02:42] And you have to have you know, we were talking about Carter Boort, talking about what Carter bought. People who like any human, they’re going to buy something. And they Vandeman is it is their version of that in the form filling piece that when they went to the dentist, when the patients filling out the form and they don’t push send is their version of it because they put their email address in Dumanis and pixelate it money.

[01:03:14] Yeah, I was all over that. Right. So this is GPS so that he types their email address in and doesn’t hit send. I’m sending them to other. Yeah, that was all cool. Right. But if they’ve landed on that landing page I’ve got them pixel now. Right. I can retargeted them with an ad that says, hey, yeah. What’s going on. Did you get disturbed? I can speak to them, I can send them. So what are my options when I’m retargeting someone who’s already seen it? I can send them in the same direction. I can send them one step ahead. I can choose to educate them. Yeah, you can send it over and send it off the right. So so what I could do is like fill out that form and maybe the next step is they fill out the form of video consultation. I could show them an ad that takes them to the next step and say book video consultation. I can send them an ad saying Download a free guide to implant dentistry. Yeah. Or an ad that takes me straight back to the same place.

[01:04:19] So how about this? How about this. How about this? Let’s say all other things being equal because it’s all in the same practise. Yeah, the sales ninja’s, the same sales Nanjo, the the the Leaders it all came from the same pipe. What’s the difference between from one dentist to another order of magnitude. Are we talking as far as lead to conversion to word of mouth. Is it huge.

[01:04:43] Sorry, I don’t understand your question.

[01:04:46] So, so. So you’ve got that within within the same practise. You’ve got three dentists. Yeah. It’s all the same practise of the process that everyone went through. The patients went through to get to those dentists was the same. Yeah. So the only variable now is the dentist. Yeah. Out of those three dentists. What are we talking as far as conversion rate and what is it, what’s the difference.

[01:05:12] Huge outrage. Yeah. You put all the systems and processes in front of them and behind them into the side of them. Yeah there are. So, you know, there are there are some human beings who just manage to connect at a level with patients that, you know, they just they convert, OK? And there are some dentists, you know, who at best do a mediocre job, OK? And we see that, you know what? We pull the numbers each month and look at the conversion rates of of people across the board per treatment modality. Right. Fellows, break it down into treatment because we know, like, you know, what’s the conversion pay was conversion rate on average. Ortho patient is an average implant patient versus someone who has been referred for Endo. Right. Why is that random guy got a hundred percent conversion rate base? It’s been referred. Yeah. And so we always break it down into the different treatment modalities. But even when you’re looking at it, let’s just say also constantly, you’ve got three clinicians who do also in your practise is huge.

[01:06:18] And so you take it back to the

[01:06:20] We feed back to them and we help them to improve. OK, that’s the important thing. And some of them I mean, example, some of them want one particular dentist just used to take too long for his consultations. Right. And it was it was information overload for the patient. So the conversion rate was really low. So we sat back, we went through the consultation process and we filmed it all down. And I said, I know you want to deliver this, right? I know you want to deliver this. Do it at the treatment plant. Hand over, please. Yeah, do it. Do it at the stage where the patient said, yes, you do with the consent you do in the handover. And given the extra detail at this stage, this is the salient information you want to get from the patient. This is the salient information you want to deliver. And and we and we see a list. Right. So there could be a whole range of reasons why they’re not converting as well. But, you know, may you run courses for dentists all the time, OK? You’ve got your you’ve got your charismatic guy or girl in the room. You can speak to anyone from any background and flow and have a conversation.

[01:07:29] No, I get it. I get I thought I thought maybe there’s an element of coordinator who’s so hot, you know, getting down to the do you want to go ahead and and maybe there’s an element of you can bring the dentist right back to clinical and you’re suitable or you’re not. And then the weather. Do you want to go ahead? Peace gets taken over by someone else. And the systems

[01:07:55] In many cases is a done deal. OK, in many cases it’s a done deal. And here’s the thing. Well, I always say about consultation and it depends on every practise is different. Every has got to know. Every practise believes in the TCO philosophy. OK, typical example, my brother. OK. My brother does not have a car, but he knows the inside. Seven to 10 minutes, he will convert that case. He will build rapport

[01:08:27] And he will get himself or himself.

[01:08:30] Right? Of course. And that’s OK. So everyone’s different. Everyone’s different. And so there are certain cultural practises where actually by the time it gets to the dentist, the finances are agreed, the details are figured out and they’re dealing with the clinical piece and just signing them up and consent them. It does happen. Yeah. In my practise, we don’t have a cold process as such, but we have what’s called earth is the leading edge, right? I’d call them Prisco or somewhere in between Absconder and the lead ninja where they’re not walking into the practise and having a consultation with the dentist without an indication of approximate price points. Yeah, and that’s the most expensive part of of a complementary or paid consultation is a patient. Come in and sit down in your chair thinking that they can get their teeth straightened for eight hundred quid or think in the case of an implant drilled into their head for a grand. Right. Isn’t they just you’re wasting their time. You’re wasting your time is not helpful for anyone. So giving them a realistic guide prior to that happening is a point of triage that happens with the lead ninjas. OK, and then after that is the piece that happens with the dentist, which, you know, can sometimes fall apart. Sometimes there’s just not that rapport bill or that connexion built or whatever. And, you know, and it doesn’t go ahead, but it plays an important part. What that piece also does is it helps you to shape the conversation based on how busy your business is. So a lot of consultants, coaches, whatever will say you must take one approach. Never see the price, always give of indication of price, just give a starting from price and then people coming or Prav.

[01:10:17] What’s your what’s your piece of advice and the answer that question is it depends if my dentist is sat there twiddling these thumbs for seven hours a day. Yeah. I’d rather have patients sat in front of him having conversations, him earning the right to make a recommendation. OK, and for those patients, I might give them just a starting from price. Our orthodontic treatment start from two thousand five hundred pounds upwards. That’s it. To take my practise at this current moment in time to get a patient in the chair for braces six to eight weeks. What do you think the conversation is that we have with the patients, and why is that different to the other guy? We can afford to be more aggressive because the more patients I put in front of the dentist who haven’t been triaged had. And at wasting time, right, conversion rate goes down to the conversation we have is the hour orthodontic treatment start from two and a half to six thousand. And sir, let me tell you that the vast majority of patients. It’s it’s slap bang in the middle of those two values now, that conversation is completely different because the patient’s expectations when they’re walking through the door is somewhere between, say, three to six grand. Yeah. And they’re walking in with within their head somewhere between four to five. Right. Four and a half grand, whatever. OK, they’re not pre framed with the two and a half K figure and being sold. Yeah, yeah, to answer that question, there’s no one size fits all for every practise or every business depends on the situation as usual.

[01:12:07] But as you say, it’s been an education, but it’s been an education. I know we’ve only just scratched the surface, but it’s been it’s been an education. Lovely. Lovely to get to the bottom of it with you, buddy.

[01:12:23] Pleasure. My pleasure.

[01:12:26] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders want history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:12:42] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:12:56] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:13:07] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] We all know that when you go on a course, you take away 20 percent of the knowledge from that day and sometimes you’ve got to keep going back to the same course. And there’s course more than twice

[00:00:11] People say, I mean, you stupid and no, no, you

[00:00:14] Only take away 20 percent. And if you’ve had a night out after, it’s five percent.

[00:00:21] But I’ve done many small make over 50 times that year. Honestly, I still learn every time. Yeah, I still learn. I’ve watched that guy talk.

[00:00:31] Yeah.

[00:00:36] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders. Don’t destroy your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

[00:00:51] Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome Amit Patel onto the podcast who I’ve known for. I don’t know, probably since you disqualified me. I’m it’s well known on the Dental sort of stage. He’s the founder of Dental Circle and someone who’s done a lot of postgrad education coming from a family of your dad’s dentist. So are there any other dentists in your family?

[00:01:16] Mum’s a dentist system

[00:01:17] To answer dentist. Wife’s a dentist.

[00:01:21] Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I would like to start with early life. So was it you going to be a dentist for sure from the beginning or what you like as a kid?

[00:01:32] I guess if you look at typical Indian families,

[00:01:37] It was either going to be

[00:01:38] Indian doctor or a pharmacist or dentist or so. But my parents always said to me, you know, I might do something that you’ll enjoy, do something they’re going to job security. And those are the most important things value in my family. So I think with those values and the fact that I guess I am biased towards dentistry because I grew up with that, I sort of fell naturally into it originally. I actually want to be an architect. I was quite a graphic designer, school and design and technology, and I loved that. But when I weighed up the pros and cons of studying architecture or dentistry, architecture was a seven year course. And to really break it, you know, in that field,

[00:02:24] You’ve got to have a lot of luck, but you’ve got to

[00:02:26] Really, really work hard at it, you know, to get those big jobs and all those massive skyscrapers in London. You know, that doesn’t happen overnight. It doesn’t happen in dentistry either. But I did come to see an easy kind of route to maybe the lifestyle that I potentially wanted or the just quality of life, not just financially going down the dentistry route. I’m really glad that I did it. And I think it’s a great profession. It’s a great career to be in. There’s always been people, you know, trying to put doom and gloom on it. But, yeah, I love my job. I love working my hands. I love talking to people. I love communicating with patients. And I just think it’s a very rewarding profession, to be sure.

[00:03:13] But, you know, as a kid with both your parents, were they both working in Brickfield’s?

[00:03:18] Yeah. So my dad has I think over the years he’s had about three practises. Yeah. He sold two. And now Brickfield’s is his baby in Essex. That’s where we work together. And my mum, she’s always worked really hard. I mean, are really the cuts. My parents my parents were part of the generation that saw kicked out of Africa. The country when he was nine years old, couldn’t really speak English. Same with my mum as well.

[00:03:48] And Uganda.

[00:03:49] Uganda, yeah. Uganda and Kenya. So they didn’t come from a privileged background. And, you know, I look at what they’ve achieved in bringing up myself and my sister and what they’ve done with their life and businesses and investments. And, you know, I’ve read my parents. I think it’s obviously fantastic what they’ve done. And I’m just, you know, fortunate that, you know, I have had a privileged background because I’ve worked so hard. But, you know, I do read a couple to them because they came to this country with nothing and, you know, they they worked hard. So my mum, when she gave birth to me, she only really had six weeks of work and then she was straight back at it. I’m used to the nurses still joke that she used to take me to work and leave me in the extra room.

[00:04:41] So much.

[00:04:42] So why did they have they always been in Essex? Your parents,

[00:04:50] Another from North West London. Elder’s green. And my dad was West Ham is a West Ham fan. You know, my dad went to a really rough school. People were getting stabbed all the time. A lot of racism, that’s just where he grew up. So, yeah, I think that he’s like as I’ve said it many, many times, that I’m lucky I’m fortunate to have that support from my family because I definitely wouldn’t be where I am now without them.

[00:05:20] Did you feel you know, you’re saying privileged as a child. Did you feel privileged or did you know no better?

[00:05:28] I want to say privileged, I mean, I went to a private school. If you look at if you could meet me when I was 10 years old, you wouldn’t think I’d be doing dentistry. All the terror I even at 16, 17, 18, I didn’t think that I’ll be a dentist. I was bad. I was naughty. I went to a nice school, but it was basically a school for four rich kids and it was just you get away with murder. But having said that, I felt like it also means more well-rounded person. I was, you know, okay, at sports, I was I was never the brightest in the class. I worked hard at it. What’s I think put me in good stead. I do actually kind of have a photographic memory. And yeah. So I’m pretty good at picking out things quite quickly so that I think that has saved me.

[00:06:28] I used to live. I live with a guy like that too. Yeah. Annoying.

[00:06:33] I think that’s what saved me. But I look back. If my parents didn’t put me in good education then I probably again wouldn’t be where I am is thanks to them. I have I have obviously worked hard to to get to where I am now. But I think the initial push at the beginning when I was deciding on Jesus’s and A-levels, that really came from the home upbringing. But yeah, they they they bought me things that I wanted, I guess, you know, I was spoilt. But having said that, my parents have come from nothing. So it wasn’t just fed with a silver spoon. You know, they would teach me the value of money. So I’m and a big thing in our family as well is just spending time with our family. You know, we really have we’re really close. And I think that’s really nice as well. But, you know, I can tell my mom anything, so that’s also quite nice. I’ve been brought up that way.

[00:07:32] And are you older than your sister?

[00:07:33] Yeah, she’s two years younger than me. She’s doing her specialist training at the Eastman.

[00:07:38] You she you see.

[00:07:41] So when you want to study, where do you study? In London.

[00:07:45] I went to Leeds. Any place you would take these. Yeah, really. I mean, this is me living in the ethics bubble when my when my parents said to me, we have to go and look at least Dental school, I thought near Bristol

[00:07:58] How I get that

[00:08:01] That that Brentwood school education. They didn’t take you to geography.

[00:08:05] Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:07] So but I, I believe in fate. I’m a great I’m a

[00:08:11] Big believer

[00:08:13] And I had a few hurdles to to get in. I guess the first hurdle was I got rejections from everywhere else and Leaders was the only place offered me an interview. Solanki was buzzing about that. I went to interview, I got off on the next day. So hopefully they like me. And when the offer came through, it said I a b in any subject. Now, normally back then it was specified you have to get in biology and chemistry and a B or an and other subject, preferably maths or physics, but it said non-specified. So I accepted the offer straight away because it was the only place that would give me an offer. And it was an amazing offer as well. So I literally can’t accept because I knew I wanted dentistry and I got an email about two weeks after accepting it, saying, sorry, we’ve made a mistake. No. Yeah, actually, it’s not a B non-specified. It’s we want you to get an eye in biology and chemistry and an A B or something like that in physics. So I emailed them back. I guess I was quite ballsy and I said I accepted your offer on the basis of what you know, it was non-specified. I’ve had offers from other universities. I didn’t I just assumed they didn’t know that. And they were saying, OK, that’s fine, we made a mistake, keep it as it was. Oh, no. And I’ll end up getting to be in the physics.

[00:09:45] So I think I owe it

[00:09:48] All paid off in the end. Yes, I was quite lucky.

[00:09:52] So Leeds a great city to study and because there’s so many students compared to the size of the population. Yeah, but how did it feel touching down in Yorkshire from your sort of southern.

[00:10:03] Sort of my when I went to the ball unfordable, Volkers was four quid. You can imagine

[00:10:10] The

[00:10:13] Exact same thing happened to be in Cardiff when I was the first night it was I was buying drinks for

[00:10:17] Everyone.

[00:10:20] So but yeah, no, it was a great city. I mean, Dental school was fantastic. A lot of. Great support and teaching, I think the class wasn’t too old a year wasn’t too big, it was three seventy five people, so we got a lot of one to one teaching again up there. The socio economic status on the patients is lower. So we really got stuck in with extractions and deep carious feelings. I got quite a bit of experience, I believe. Great party town make great Connexions got a really good solid friend group. We lived in the same house with nine lads over the five years, so we had nine bedroom house. I think it was three floors. You can imagine what that was like. So yeah, we just we had a really, really good time and yeah, I enjoyed Dental school there and I recommend it to a lot of people.

[00:11:15] You went to the same sort of time as runover. You must

[00:11:19] Think she

[00:11:20] Was here one or two years above.

[00:11:22] You remember her back then?

[00:11:24] No, no, no. I don’t think Instagram wasn’t invented and I don’t think so.

[00:11:31] Then around how

[00:11:33] Long after you qualified did you do Dental Circle? Because that’s when I sort of started to hear about you. Was that soon after you qualified?

[00:11:41] I’m so in the final year of university, she started something called the Dental Network, and the purpose of that was to connect just Dental professionals. And again, it came from the fact that I if I had a clinical problem, I could literally bring out my mom and my dad and say, what do I do here? Whereas my housemates, with some of them didn’t have family Dental backgrounds or didn’t have the connexions. So I was lucky and I wanted to basically make something that would allow professionals to connect. And the whole point was having newly qualified people connecting with more experienced colleagues and the experienced colleagues would provide support and mentoring. And that all stemmed from the fact that, again, I thought I was lucky and other people could do with help that didn’t have the back, that didn’t have family background dentistry. So that’s how it started. I think I met a website man in Southend on Sea. He charged me four thousand pound to make a basic website and I was happy with it. And it started from there. It was just me, one man band. I was in the final year of uni and we know what to do. I created a logo and I got maybe two hundred members in six months. So then I qualified for university, did my Ph.D. in my hometown of Essex. So I loved Leeds, but I knew I wanted to come home and I wrote an article in Dentistry magazine. So FBC just about the Dental network and how I thought it would help other professionals.

[00:13:15] And the bottom of the article, you’re probably aware that you put your email address and details about you and I got a phone call from a guy called Dev and he just said, Hi, my name’s Dave, I’m a dentist. I seen your article. I think we should talk and also talk about what he was like. Well, I’ve been thinking about your idea, and I think you’ll be good if we’ll be partners. And it was literally like, you know, who are you? So we met up in blue for lunch and we had Nando’s. And he basically said that I think, you know, we’ve got something here and I’d want to be business partners with you. And it just stemmed from there. We found a different developer. We found the developer in Newcastle who specifically designs networking platforms. And we put everything in place, you know, licences, protocols, GDP, all lawyers, solicitors. But to this day, I mean, they’ve equal partners. We only have about five thousand pounds each into the business of our in cash. So ten grand got us started. And we’ve run that now for maybe six years old and similar seven years on. We’re coming up to and you know, it works very well. What if it was about one hundred and fifty thousand. It’s been valued eleven times. We’ve had offers from multiple people to buy it. So and that’s just from ten grand investment.

[00:14:45] I mean, look, there is you know, I’ve had him on this show as well. He is the kind of guy a bit a bit like Prav who can jump into business with 14 different people and and not really, like, have to know them in the first place. You know, Prav Prav owns a bunch of practises here and a business there. And he a bunch of other businesses with different people. I always say to him, how can you trust all these people? And, you know, someone like Prav he trusts isn’t even part of it. He goes in, ask the questions and and handles everything. And I can see there’s that cat, too.

[00:15:23] But you did. You did. You don’t think

[00:15:25] We’re going to business with a total stranger? I would never have done that. I would never done that.

[00:15:30] You know what is true or did you click?

[00:15:33] Did you really click and you trusted him there and that was it. I didn’t.

[00:15:37] I’m quite sceptical about these things. I take a lot of time to make those decisions. But you it’s always good to have a business partner, I think someone to bounce ideas off. And and that’s what I wanted. He brought more of the business side. I was more the creative and I think we just gelled. And now we’re really good friends. You know, we’re best friends now. He was best man at my wedding. So so we really you know, we talked to each other normally every day. And it’s all stemmed from that Dental three magazine article. And it really took off and it was on a journey. It helped build my profile. I got to meet with other companies. I got to know people like yourself and the Dental industry. So it wasn’t just about I mean, it was a business. You know, the purpose of it was to make a business out of it, but it made me a better person. I learnt a lot from it and have taught me a lot as well. And yeah, I think you just know that when you just go with someone and he’s, you know, I trust him and he looks the good thing about them is that he looks after people and that’s the nice thing about him. I can bring him up tomorrow inside, never got a problem and he’ll be there and you know, and be the same vice versa. That’s kind of relationship we have. And it’s nice when you get of any built that in the last seven years with him. But it’s owning a business together has helped develop that friendship. So it was purely business at the beginning. But business aside, we can just sit and chat like best mates and we want to talk about business

[00:17:13] And what is what is the business model? Is the sponsorship?

[00:17:18] Yeah. So we generate money from advertising, marketing, sponsorship. I guess the membership now going to be thirteen thousand dentists in the UK and we run courses. When Kovik came, we kind of put a hold on that just because it was more difficult to run courses during that time with the regulation. So yeah, now it just takes an online model generating revenue from that and building relationships. And we have really good, strong relationships with our companies that we work with. We’ve done the shows at Dental show. We’ve been able to have the standards and a presence, I guess a funny story from one of the shows, something I’ll never forget. I’ve had loads of, you know, family have helped us with this. It was a start up business. My mum used to come and help us at the Dental show. She would be there with Dental Saku Flyer’s Maddie would be the Krishna. Dave’s wife would be there. That’s what he needs. You need your family around you when you do a Start-Up, because we can’t afford to pay people wages. And we were running a competition with a whitening company and we had whitening boxes like the kit. And the promotion was if you signed the Dental circle, you’d get a whitening kit. But they were just dummies. There was no gels in them. So we had them all stacked up. And the whole purpose was, if you register on Dental circle, we would send you an email and you’d be able to collect a free whitening at a later date. But at the show, I didn’t see my mum for ages and I said, Where is she? And then she came up to me and she was like, I I’ve bit of the whitening kits. What do you mean, Mum? And she gave me about three to quit in cash the dentistry.

[00:19:07] So I said, well, so where’s

[00:19:13] This come from? Should I solve

[00:19:14] The one ticket. Oh one the ones in the stand said Mum there empty. There’s no gelatine. Oh she said, oh no. I’ve given the boxes. I said I spent half my time

[00:19:30] On the show trying to get my mum to explain what

[00:19:33] These people look like so I could give them a

[00:19:37] Pure bred entrepreneurial mum.

[00:19:40] We’ve had some funny times as well. I think the. Thing about that, and again, I think you know me, I like a good time and I, you know, a night out and connecting with people. So along that journey, we’ve had a great time building that business. Yeah, it’s just just been a fantastic experience and we’ve just had some great laughs along the way. And I think that just makes it that much sweeter and.

[00:20:06] Well, I mean, what’s the size of the organisation? Do you have any full time employees or what’s the story with us?

[00:20:11] Yeah, we got marketing manager, we got graphic designer and we got website developer all on retainers. So otherwise it’s just myself, my dad’s death. We just

[00:20:23] He

[00:20:24] He’s middle of the business. If you take a little bit of a back seat and people would sort of run it for us now. So that’s quite good

[00:20:33] For a lovely businessman or a lovely person. So then let’s let’s talk clinically. You know, you’ve gone down a bunch of different routes. So you’ve you’ve done your implant diploma. You’ve said you’ve become a specialist in restorative. When you were thinking of specialising, I mean, I don’t know,

[00:20:54] I’m not I’m not seeing the specialist register. Are you about to be the content that I’ve done? Yeah, because the Kings is distance learning, you don’t get specialist for just the status. And I never actually wanted to go down that route. I always knew that I wanted to be a journalist. And again, that stemmed from my father. He’s maybe got seven degrees after his name. And he always said to me that if you get the qualifications in. You’ll not only learn the skills and the knowledge to be able to do sort of high end quality dentistry, but you’ll get referrals. And patients will find you. So he said just from the beginning, if we can do it, just get cracking with the postgrads. And I didn’t have you know, I funded it all myself. I mean, honestly, I’ve probably forget the days out of practise. I’ve probably spent about one hundred and fifty thousand since I qualified just on pure Dental education. If you factor in losses and earnings from the practise, obviously that be much, they’ll be crazy money, but it’s it’s been worth it. I’m at a point now where I don’t know everything and you know that I’m not as experienced as you. I look at my elders and people that have more experience and I’ve got a lot of respect for them because you can’t be experienced in general practise.

[00:22:23] Having said that, I do believe and I’m a strong believer that what I’ve done in a short space of time, in seven years since I qualified, that I’m at a position now where I can kind of dictate the kind of dentistry that I want to do if I don’t want to do a filling. And I have to if I want to. In the end, I don’t have to. I can just stick to full mouth rehab and implants and I’m not the best at it. I’m always learning, but I’m doing these cases so I can I need to see long term cases. I’m doing it so I can learn from my failures. And again, protecting yourself from point of view. I want to be able to show my patients and have the backing of good Dental schools and colleges where I’ve trained. So I started off with the JDF. I guess a lot of people say don’t waste your money on that. But it was just something that you did, I guess. Now, if you don’t, you have JDF, you do an invisible course. So Invisalign is a new JDF for young dentists.

[00:23:25] Right.

[00:23:26] And that’s no disrespect to Invisalign. It’s just times have moved on. But when I qualified seven years ago, it was you didn’t JDF and that was it. So I went to Emirates Stadium. I took the exam. Did JDF got the qualification. Then after that, I did one year programme with the TII or learning how to restore implants. And the reason why I did that is I knew that I loved surgical dentistry, but I wanted to understand how to restore implants first before going onto placements. So I did that with Stralman and that was a great starter, but it never really pushed me. It wasn’t a course that I mean, I did learn a lot, but it didn’t push me out. I want to be pushed because I’m hungry for education. So I ended up doing a Maxxie in a research at field and that was a game changer for me. I would recommend everyone to do a year in hospital, even if you want to be a top 10 cosmetic dentist. It just, in my opinion, teaches you how to deal with problems. Yeah, and that’s outside of dentistry. It makes you think differently. And outside the box, I remember I have my first day on long call. There was a lady that had been in a fight and I was at three o’clock in the morning and the consultant wasn’t there. And it was a hospital where there’s no middleman, there’s no registrar, it’s just consultant and junior. And I was a junior at home sleeping. And my she came in and her face was light, like fucked.

[00:25:05] But yeah, her eyes were hanging out the bruising everywhere she couldn’t see and. Oh and I get a call saying you’re to come see this patient. I don’t know what to do. But you being the consultant, I don’t want to be disturbed, disturbed at three o’clock. And he was literally like, I mean what. And I was like, look, sir, there’s a problem here. I don’t feel comfortable enough to describe the case to him. And you just really have to think on your feet. I remember two weeks into that job, I wasn’t getting it. I just everything was going wrong. I didn’t feel confident and I’m quite confident person. But that really took me down a few notches. And I probably needed it because I was a bit cocky and I needed to be taken down a few pegs. And that was the job did that to me. And the consultant actually said to me two weeks in I mean, I don’t think this is working out. I don’t think it’s worthwhile you coming to work tomorrow. That’s what he said to me. And I was like, well, I went home and I was living with my parents at that time. And I told my parents and I said, I don’t want I don’t think I want to go back tomorrow. I think I’m done. I was two weeks in. My mum and dad were like, look, you know, I’ve never heard words like this from you, you know? You sound defeated like a broken man.

[00:26:26] I think I’m a broken man, you know, and they said, look, you’ve you’ve always got your problems. You just need to take a breather, a crack on, and you just need to show this consultant that this is the job for you and you’re going to crack it. You need to win him over. That’s what you need to do, even if it means kissing his arse for a couple of weeks and you’re his top junior. My parents said you do that because you change that opinion of him. So I went back the next day and that’s what I did. I put my head down. I wasn’t cocky. I got the job done. I learnt. And, you know, I ended up being his top junior. And after a year of that, he offered me a job at the end. And he said, I mean, you I like the way that you do work. I like working with you. Do you want to stay on the staff? I always knew that I wanted to be in practise because I love practise, I love restorative dentistry and implant industry. But he said, look, even if you want to go back to practise you to work part time and I was really honoured the fact that you offered me a job so I couldn’t turn it down. So I stayed on for another six months. It didn’t last longer than that because I had to make a decision to go into practise full time. But again, I had another situation where I was put in an adverse situation completely foreign to me, and I worked hard at it and I’m glad that I did.

[00:27:59] So after the hospital job, I started the Clinton for years at Kings with Professor Brownmiller and stupidly at the same time, I also started the implant diploma at Royal College of Surgeons. So same time. Yeah, so I had an excellent Dental, which is a double masters. I did that alongside the Diploma in Dentistry, which is also a master’s level, and that was tough. You know, I was working in practise and bearing in mind that Clinton every year you would see 12 essays. You’ve got to do the contact days at Kings and you’ve got to do three days of exams and submit five cases every year. Then the implant diploma. You’ve got to do ten essays every year and you got to submit cases and you have to do the contact that asks in London two days a month. That was tough. But again, I do believe I’m one of these people that has I’ve always had a great work life balance. You know, I’m not a geek and I’m sure you know that. And I know when to study and put my head down. But I also know when to have a relief and go out with the lads. And as long as I got that balance right. I was okay, and after four years in the Clinton and two years with the implant diplomacy, as I passed them both, I got distinction with the Clinton and I was chuffed about that.

[00:29:27] And I even got asked to go back and be a teacher on the programme. So I’ve done that with Brian Miller. That was really nice to be invited back and the implant diploma finished. And when I said about the I.T. course, I didn’t push me. The implant course asks really push me. That’s when I started placing a lot of implants, but it taught me textbook dentistry. You were not allowed to place an implant without a Worksop, without Steane. A full case report. Appropriate radiographs is how dentistry should be done without cutting corners. And that really, really taught me how to do things properly. Look after the patient. So we didn’t rush the cases and that implant diploma. Avivah, at the end, the final exam, that was probably one of the toughest exams I’ve ever sat. It’s got about 20 percent pass rate and you get grilled. I mean, they hand it to you. In my final visor, I presented a live case, then a three unit bridge in I believe the chamber went really well. And I was happy with the pictures and the outcome of the patient was really happy. And what is the exam thinking that ask questions about the sinus lift? Because that was what the case was about and they picked up on the tiniest little thing and they said, oh, I see you prescribe the patient arnica. And I was like, yeah, cooperation’s arnica pre and post op implant treatment, and they were like, let’s talk about Arnica mate for half

[00:30:56] An hour and I’ve got the guy with me

[00:31:00] On the mode of action

[00:31:01] Of arnica. Like, is

[00:31:05] It licenced in the UK? What countries is banned, in what doses do I use in what the side effects.

[00:31:12] Did you have the answers? No.

[00:31:17] So I was prepared for Sina’s live and he’s arnica so.

[00:31:24] But he was right. And you know what I learnt from it because he said if you’re giving a drug to a patient, you should know its mode of action, you should know its side effects. And I was like, you’re completely right. I’m a dentist. I’m prescribing I’ve learnt from it. So I think there’s always been something that I’ve learnt from along, you know, and

[00:31:45] These these courses, like you can say, oh, they they made a man of you, right. Because, you know, discipline, reading, writing, essays, course presentations and all of that. But I’m interested in two things, really. No. One. The value add, of course, to your other than making a man of you value add, but wouldn’t you and you do a restorative effort and then do they start at the beginning again and, you know, do they teach you something? Of course they teach you more than, you know, Leaders. Right.

[00:32:20] But, you know, I mean and you know, some of the best scientists in the UK just have a Bede’s, right.

[00:32:25] So do you weigh that up? Did you weigh that up yourself? I could do short courses or whatever. And and I said before before you go. Before you. And the second thing, your dad’s one of the top implant ologists around. So as far as implants, you could have just shadowed your dad for three months would have been a massive education, you know.

[00:32:46] So it’s always one of those cases where your dad spends more time with other people. He does his own son. You take it for granted. I’ll get onto that. But yeah, I the McLinden to cut long story short with is going back to undergraduate level. The first year I knew most of that stuff. I’ve done tons of courses. I’ve done many small Makov I’ve done for a man. I’ve done finless such as Dental course I honestly I’ve done why I believe some of the top top courses and I just want to structure that’s why I signed up to them. And then I want a proper teaching programme and structure. So with McLynn then I honestly thought is fantastic. But I say to so many dentists to ask me, what do you recommend? You have to go back into practise and what you’ve learnt on that previous day. You’ve got to do it, otherwise you’re not going to do it, whether it be Christo’s Course Aspire or any of these four year long programmes or Glenden or even my friends won’t mind me saying this. Some of my best friends of science and content, they’ve dropped out after a year because they don’t see the value in it. And and the reason is, is that you have to go in to that course and know. Right. I’ve learnt how to take an impression for full potential. I’ve got to find a Dental case next week and do it. And if you don’t do that, it’s a waste of time, wasted money. I wouldn’t recommend anyone doing it because you have to have that mindset that you’re going to go in and actually utilise what you’ve done and that it’s no different to one day course or four year course. It’s exactly the same. And McLinden is not going to make you a better dentist, not for years. It’s yourself doing the treatment on your patients that is going to make you a better dentist.

[00:34:44] What you do with that knowledge?

[00:34:45] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, they can’t come to your practise and hold your hands.

[00:34:50] You know, it’s so interesting you say that because I was talking to Chris, Griselle and we were talking about which they of his cohort, which days are available. Someone asked me, is it easier to get in on a Friday than the Monday, whatever it was? And he said to me that the Friday group are the ones that are most disadvantaged because they haven’t got the next. They’ve clearly always said it’s the weekend. And and he said if it was up to him, you wouldn’t do it on a Friday. But so many people walk to Friday because that’s, you know, traditionally the day they’ve got. Oh, yeah, you say that. It’s just the weekend is said.

[00:35:27] I’m glad that someone like him obviously is saying that because he’s really experienced and he’s been education for a long time. I’ve definitely learnt that. I’ve picked it up myself and I made a point. No matter what I’ve learnt, we all we all know that when you go on a course, you take away 20 percent of the knowledge from that day. And sometimes you’ve got to keep going back to the same course. And there’s course there’s courses on twice.

[00:35:51] People say, I mean, you stupid and I know no, you

[00:35:55] Only take away 20 percent. And if you’ve had a night out after, it’s five percent.

[00:36:02] But I’ve I’ve done many small make of of fifty times now. Yeah. Honestly, I still learn every time. Yeah. I still learn. I’ve watched that guy talk.

[00:36:11] Yeah I, I’m repetitious.

[00:36:15] I completely agree. So I would recommend anyone to go on a course and if it’s a photography course or dentures or composites or implants, you have to implement something from that course. That week is so important and with the modelling done it took me from a single tooth dentist to a full mouth dentist. That was one of the biggest advantages I found from that course. I have always wanted to be a former dentist. Yeah. So again, and you say, especially with the advent of Instagram, the social media, you know, there are people out there that on the photographs, though, did amazing online prep. It looks fantastic. Steak, you got a rubber time air abrasion, they bonded it with heated composite, but they haven’t understood the reason why the truth only in the first place. And that’s the kind of dentistry that I like doing. And I’ll be honest with you, I like making money. So me being a former dentist also gives me the quality of life that I now live because I’m not over treating the patient. I’m not a dentist in sales. I don’t sell to the patient. I literally have learnt the knowledge to explain to the patient, well, the reason why the legal costs for the lower six is fractured is because you’ve got canine way. So why don’t we think about restoring the wear on the front teeth and then we look at the back. So suddenly a patient that just was expecting to have a crown on a single molar is now walking out, having a. composites of veneers or crowns to treat the way. And I learnt that from the then that is one of the biggest things that it taught me was look at the mouth as a whole and it articulates the system as a whole and not I get it on the tooth.

[00:38:15] I get it. And I think we both know a bunch of full mouth dentists who do that. But that’s an interesting sort of aside. If you’d broken lingo CASPA, would you?

[00:38:39] If it was if I stop doing it,

[00:38:42] Then, yeah, because he can sell us.

[00:38:49] Think is an unfair question as to what nationality this is, because it’s not you, is it? Is it is a 50 year old guy who, you know, is going going down a particular car.

[00:39:01] Yeah. And look,

[00:39:02] I’m not saying that every patient walks out with a full mouth rehab. I’m just saying they open my eyes. And it was great that they did that because it makes my guests stay in practise more enjoyable. I like working things out. I like finding out the reason why something’s not working or why something of my work is failed. I like understanding. It was quite funny because I lecture F.D. quite a lot because I’m a VTE trainer and I did a study, I think it was last year and I always do the anterior and posterior crowns day for the vets. And I put a picture, I had a picture of my first crown as an associate and I put it on the screen and I said to them, I mean, there was nothing like what I’m doing now. And I said to them that this print is on the screen is overprepare. This tape is over. Tapered shape. Margins is not great at today’s standard, but everyone has to start somewhere. And I said of having said that with the knife, that it is that crown is still in place six years later. So it just goes to show that you can get a crown to fit onto that and it will probably be OK anyway. The next day I went to practise the bloody crown fall off

[00:40:29] And I come up against it. But yeah,

[00:40:36] I think yeah, it’s I like teaching and I like studying. I figure out why things are not working.

[00:40:44] Tell me about what you were going to say about your dad and shadowing him.

[00:40:49] So again, I’ve been lucky to you know, he’s been a great mentor of mine. My mum has been fantastic as well. My mum’s a great communicator. She’s worked in general practise. Thirty five years. She’s retired now, but she taught me how to not to to talk to patients and how to respect patients and just, you know, listen to my my is a really good communicator, but that’s always been very clinical. And having him in the practise is great support. But honestly, you don’t actually talk to each other. You know, he’s in his room. I’m in my room. We’re both on our laptops at lunch, doing emails or talking to the staff. You rarely actually get an opportunity to sit down and talk. And he will always he won’t mind me saying this. He will always put his students in front of me because they’re paying him.

[00:41:47] So if

[00:41:48] It means that he’s got a mark on their cases or reply to a WhatsApp, who are

[00:41:53] His students? What are what is he

[00:41:56] Is his lead tutor, the employer diploma osseous London.

[00:42:00] So he has a

[00:42:02] He has a town hall of delegates on the implant course. The you know, he has to mentor and he yeah. It’s honestly, it’s one of those things that people say, oh, you’re so lucky, you got so much help. But I’ll put my hand up if I did. I just say I’m lucky I’ve had help is actually not the case because you don’t actually get to speak to each other

[00:42:24] Is really you know, you’re only in a practise. You often you don’t speak to the other dentist, you know, because when it’s a lunch time is when if you’re busy

[00:42:35] And the staff is the only time that we can catch up with our admin.

[00:42:38] Yeah. Yeah. So what about this? I mean, I guess that you’ve been doing with annual just

[00:42:45] So I got this come about.

[00:42:48] I got roped into that last year.

[00:42:50] He’s one of my favourite people. He’s one of my favourite people in the whole wide world.

[00:42:53] So I can understand I can

[00:42:56] Understand how it could happen.

[00:42:57] He’s he’s a great teacher. He’s very passionate and he likes other people. He likes to see other people do. Well, yeah. Which is lovely. It’s a lovely trait to have some but a lot of respect for him because he’s happy to work with you to get better at your job. So last year we went into lockdown and I think maybe we closed the practise eighteenth of March. Twenty twenty. You know, we were scared, you know, no one knew what was going on. Cleo said you had to close. We were thinking. Where’s the profits going to get its money from? So it’s a bit of a scary time and we we all had three months of work, so I got a phone call from Nick Setit, you know, Nick Clever Dental. So I also work there and I don’t know if you know, but I’m buying into that practise. Yeah. So I’m going to be owner of Square Mile with the consent of the associate at that time Square Mile. And Nick said to me, look, Aneel wants us to do this exam. Are you up for it, and I just literally finished the implant diploma in the mail and then I said to myself, I’m not going to do any more studying. And he said, oh, come on, you know, you’ve got all the knowledge it will be up there. And I was like every bulletin on their exam. Then I got a phone call from Anel saying, I’ve heard you’ve told Nick you’re not going to do it. He said, you’re going to jump around and cut me a break. I need to have a race done too much studying and I want to enjoy lockdown. You know, I’ve never had three months of what

[00:44:40] I wanted to do that I’ve never done. I want to I want to be a gardener. So he goes, you can do your gardening another time.

[00:44:49] Just come onto the garden so that Magids is the membership. An advance journal, Dental Surgery, Osseous Edinborough. And you can only sit the exam if your minimum five years qualified and is basically a qualification of four dentists that want to advance their skills and knowledge and prove to people that you’re basically an advanced practitioner. So you’re not a basic level. You’re an advanced level in general practise, but you’re not a specialist. So and that’s again, what I wanted to be. I want I knew I wanted to be a generalist in practise and I wanted a recognition for that. I guess I wanted more or less off my line. Now, I don’t know.

[00:45:38] You know, it’s getting a bit ridiculous,

[00:45:41] But I like the idea of the exam and what it was about. And again and it was a lovely guy. And he explained the reasons why the exam or examination process would suit me. So we formed a little study club myself. Nick, Sanjay, Elain, you know, we’re we’re all alike. We’ve got similar in our passion towards dentistry. So we Formula Study Club and we started revising during lockdown. We all flew to Edinburgh in September last year and we sat the exam again. That was tough. It was a new exam. We are the second cohort to take it ever. Only one person had ever passed the exam.

[00:46:23] What was it? What kind of exam essays exam is?

[00:46:26] It was. And yeah, Vivas in Britain. It was, it was tough. Really, really tough examination process. Again, it’s one of those Vivas where. The examiner just looks at you, and if you’re not saying the right thing, they’re just like they did not the head look down

[00:46:48] Is one of

[00:46:49] Those process. But, you know, we we got through it ended up passing. And again, I’ve been thankful enough to be asked to go back as an examiner for that qualifications. So, yeah, it’s a great exam. It makes you understand dentistry a bit better. I’ve already said, you know, it’s not going to make you amazing clinically, but you will look at the patient as a whole and is learning about their medical problems and understanding how that affects their teeth. Again, I know in practise. So that helps.

[00:47:23] I’ve got to hand it to you, man, because, you know, all these times, I mean, you’ve been out for drinks or dinner or whatever, and I just had you down as the fun guy. You know, he never really mentioned any of his

[00:47:37] Prav

[00:47:38] Prav. Prav always says on this podcast, you talk to people you’ve known for 15 years. You find out a whole lot of stuff about Libya. Yeah, I’ve got I’ve got to hand it to you. Like, not not not defining yourself by all of that.

[00:47:52] I think I

[00:47:54] Yeah. I’ve always liked to work hard and play hard. I think getting those qualifications, it’s nice to look back and think, you know, I have worked hard to get there and anyone can do it. It’s just going to put you put your mind to it and it will make you a better dentist. And like I said, I go into work, I enjoy. I got a great team around us both practises, you know, at Brickfield’s. You know, my dad is still got his nurse. She’s been nursing with my dad since he was 16 years old. She’s now fifty two. Wow. And it’s not a practise where, you know, you think, well, it’s not like an old practise. We’ve modernised it. We’ve got problems. Can we got trios. We were combing CT scan is we’ve recently got a rehab on the practise. And, you know, we’ve always tried to keep up with the latest technology, latest materials. We you know, I’m a great believer and I love the brand of enlightened. I think, you know, I’m not just saying this because you’re on here, but you’ve got something really good going there. And I believe in the brand. So when when we became a regional centre of excellence, I was proud to do that. And, you know, I work in ethics. A lot of people won’t want to if it goes hand in hand with the area that we live in. I’m working, but I like nice stuff. I like also nice things at home and holidays. And I think that having a practise like Brickfield’s and now Square Mile, I’m getting to a point where I’m sort of I’m comfortable. I’m happy with what, you know, how to achieve this.

[00:49:43] Let’s talk about the practise principle as opposed to, you know, the clinician. Yeah. What are you bringing, for instance, to I know you’ve made a big change in Brickfield’s, right? I mean, you’ve been responsible for much of the sort of the marketing side of it. And so tell me tell me, what would you bring to that side? Does that come naturally to do you feel like, you know, being the boss is something you like being?

[00:50:09] I think a lot of people I’m not I’m not great at business. I never have. And I think if I was quite a business, I wouldn’t be a dentist. So it’s in dentistry. I think it’s very hard to be excellent clinically and also an excellent practise owner or principal. I think it’s very hard to do both because both require time. So I decided to go down the clinical because again, I love working with my hands, I love my job and OK, I could go and go the opposite way. And I own twenty practises and I wouldn’t have that of a crown ever again in my life or feeling ever again. But I actually love doing clinical dentistry, so I wanted to get into practise ownership just because the fact that I wanted to always take over my dad’s practise, which is his baby, there’s an element, there’s element of like legacy there. And of course and I really want to take that to the next level. He’s done a a great start. The last sort of three, four years. I’ve been really involved in the business of marketing and looking at the figures and getting a team on board.

[00:51:23] So I’ve done a lot with that. And then we’re square mile. We’ve we’re very good clinically there because you got Sanjay, Nick Lane, Paul and myself, I do think is one of the best clinical teams in London. Yeah. In conditions there, however, the marketing, the branding is not correct there, and that’s something that needs to be sorted out. So and the guys understand that. And that’s why I’m coming on board, because I do think that place has got something special about it. The locations is fantastic. The the the work the Sanjay does is unbelievable. You know, one of the best dentists in the UK and, you know, his work is absolutely sublime. So it’s great to be a part of that. So I’d rather, Sanj, just focus on clinical and I myself and Nick focus on running the business, but tracing at the brand that we want it to be because the location and there was a square in London is brilliant. And the I actually actually

[00:52:31] Quite love the shape of that building as well, you know what I mean? It’s got

[00:52:34] A lot of going

[00:52:36] On. Stage is all glass. Yeah, architecture. The architecture is really nice, but it needs a revamp. So, yeah, that’s what we’re going to do. And I guess you asked me what I’m like as Principal Blunt’s. Are you. Yeah. If you ask the team members what I just cut to the chase and it’s not me being rude, it’s just I haven’t got time to sit there and mollycoddle, you know, you just if that’s the job you get on, you do it. And I want to email it in the day telling me you’ve done it and oh, that

[00:53:13] I’m really surprised. I’m really surprised. You say, Mama, I’m

[00:53:16] In a life. I thought you’d be the

[00:53:18] Touchy feely kind of boss

[00:53:21] Are really kind of

[00:53:23] Laid back and some approaches. But I’m also a little bit cutthroat here. And, you know, if you haven’t done something right and it’s not again, it’s not me trying to be nasty or rude. It’s just I want the best for the team. I want the best for the practise. Nick is great at that. Nick is a great people person. He wants to be friends with everyone. He’s got great personality, you know, so I think made him quite a good combo. So he can be the airy fairy.

[00:53:55] Yeah. And I’ll

[00:53:56] Be right. You’re not cutting the mustard.

[00:53:59] Yeah. I mean, me and Sanjeev, that means that you’ve seen my sancha. We have you know, I want to be everyone’s friend. Yeah. And and I you know, it’s interesting. Yeah. Because it’s quite hard being the other side of that as well. Yeah. Because, you know, I’m like sure to everything, whatever anyone says, I’m like sure. Yeah, of course. You know,

[00:54:20] I’ve got a

[00:54:21] Little, I’ve got a little dream going on that it’s like the best place in the world to work or whatever. And that’s like my number one my my number one thing. Right. And you know, he’s he’s running a business

[00:54:31] And you’re a Yes man.

[00:54:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if it was up to me, Daudier, I would have people pick pick their own holidays. Yeah. It would do whatever you want, you know. Like really. I want that. I want.

[00:54:45] Oh that’s nice. And I think like I said, like with Dave and with Dental Circle as the two characters to bounce off and. Yeah. And that just creates maybe harmony in the business. And that’s what you need.

[00:54:57] Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting man, because you’ve got this whole clinical side going. Yeah. And you’ve, you were brought up in the world of Dental practises. So I mean by osmosis you would have gotten. That’s a good question. How much did you get by osmosis clinically? And then we’ll move on to business,

[00:55:19] I you know, my V.T. Dino, Sam, Rodia and Parrish, so my VTE Shriner’s, they own quite a few practises, almost like a mini corporate ethics. And it was quite funny because it was my first day as being FDA or VTE in the first practise. I worked after leaving uni. And Sam, like you said, you in the first day he was he was literally like, I mean, I don’t need to be here because he was a dentist.

[00:55:54] He was like, look, I’ve got too many

[00:55:56] Practises to deal with. It’s like you just bring your parents. And one part of me thought, I don’t think that child is supposed to be like that.

[00:56:08] But the other part

[00:56:09] Of me thought, well, actually is right.

[00:56:11] He’s right, you know.

[00:56:13] So if there was ever a clinical problem, I’ll just go home and ask my parents. So, yeah, I did. I learn a lot of clinical scenarios and situations from that. And the business side, my dad’s always been very much about the time we have. You know, we have a great team of Brickfield’s. They’re so loyal. We’ve only only because of me. We’ve recently just employed a couple new members of staff. But I think we have a team of 20 now and most of them are at least seven or eight years have been there. So we’ve got thirty five years for a nurse. We’ve got twenty years for a manager, fifteen years for another manager, ten years for a receptionist. So I think that says a lot about the business. When you have people that say we don’t have a high turnover of staff at all people,

[00:57:11] How many how many chairs is it. How many. Oh, six dentists and specialists.

[00:57:19] Well, we don’t have so we don’t have specialists in theory. We’ve got my dad who’s restorative or so and implants. You got myself who’s restorative and implants. You’ve got Mittel who is no Nakato, my sister who’s perio. And we have three dentists doing Invisalign and general dentists. We’ve got my F.D., which I get every year. We’ve got a therapist, we’ve got five fogginess and we have two trainee Dental nurses and we’ve probably got about another three or four qualified nurses. Three of our nurses are very radiography and is kind of trained. So, yeah, you know, we have we have a really good team.

[00:58:05] I believe that sounds that sounds like a fun Christmas party. Like how many how many people are you in total. I think

[00:58:11] About twenty.

[00:58:13] Yeah. Oh in total. Twenty. Yeah.

[00:58:15] Total twenty or twenty one. Twenty two. So yeah this is good fun and it’s like I say it’s enjoyable. You want to go somewhere. I just enjoy working. You don’t want to go in stressed. You want to go, the nurses are going to look after you and, and stuff is going to get done. So I always say to people spend a lot of time with your nurse, you know, they are your you know, your right hand. And if you train them well and you get them work in the way that you want to and you respect them and you treat them well, it will make your day in practise because it’s a stressful job. And, you know, you want someone, they support you. And that person is going to give you support day in, day out. It’s going to be your nurse.

[00:58:57] Yeah. So listen, Prav isn’t here, but but we always mean Prav always ask everyone about their conigliaro because, you know, we tend to we tend to hide clinical errors in medicine. Generally, when I say hide, it’s not that it’s not an open culture. It’s on the open culture of let’s talk about mistakes, but it’s going to take me through clinical errors, which whichever way you want to look at that, the things you’ve learnt from those clinical areas, clinical errors.

[00:59:29] So I guess there is one, actually.

[00:59:36] I guess there’s two things that that there’s obviously more, but there’s two that probably stick out that I think will help other people. And I also learn from so myself. The first one was a extraction of a lower right for root. And I took the x ray as a new patient emergency and I had time and I say the tooth needs to come out. I’m restorable. Let’s just take it out. So the patient said, OK, that’s not a problem. You know, if you know me, tooth out. So namedrop. And I’m starting to Longsight around the roots, and I slip and I slip into the floor of the mouth and suddenly we get quite a big bleed and I obviously panicked. I must have only been about two years qualified.

[01:00:38] Had you done your surgery job at this point?

[01:00:40] Yeah, I had done neurosurgery at that point for sure.

[01:00:43] Calm your calm. That’s what you’re

[01:00:44] Saying, isn’t it? I was I was I panicked

[01:00:48] In the fact that I’m not protected by the hospital now

[01:00:52] Because I’m in general

[01:00:54] Practise

[01:00:55] And

[01:00:56] The NHS is not going to protect me. So I slipped and I caused quite a deep cut. I just said to the patient, you know, I’m really sorry. This is what happened. I put my hands up and I said, look what I need to do, suture. I just need to stitch it. So I didn’t know what the flow of the mouth and I suture. There are haemostasia, there’s no bleeding. And I saw the patient back for review. She wasn’t very happy, obviously, even though, you know, I thought I handled it quite well. I rectified it, but she wasn’t happy. I understood that because I brought back for a review and she said to me, she said openly admit, you know, I know there was a mistake. You slip the sharp instrument, you cut the floor. My mouth, it was quite sore for a couple of weeks. It seems to have healed now and it’s okay. But just to let you know, I don’t want to come back and see you again because I’ve lost the trust in you. And that’s what she actually said to me. So it was quite that it. But I also see where she’s coming from because I’ve enjoyed her. I’ve enjoyed her and I shouldn’t have done. And I guess the learning point from that is clinically always, always have a finger support. Yeah. If you, Sillett, go into your own hand, not the patient. So it’s I’ve learnt from that.

[01:02:23] I’m not writing an article on how to use Lassiter’s afterwards because I should have had a thing support. I didn’t. And that was the reason why I end up slipping. I dealt with a problem, but the patient decided not to come back. And I guess that helped me a little bit because we take things like that personally and that’s just the way that we are. So I guess that was one thing. And then the second case that comes to mind is a case is still ongoing. And this is a patient that I’ve been treating now for. I would say Caryatid two and a half years, and he came in, it was a three unit fixed fixed bridge that he had previously and he had a recession and one of the abutment teeth and he got to be sensitive. He didn’t like the aesthetics of it because it had an old metal metal metal crown. So I said, look, easy, cut it off. I’ll make you a new one. Zirconia. There won’t be any metal in it. It will look good job done. Two appointments. And before I actually booked him for the treatment, well, I booked him in and then he started calling back. He rang reception. He sent emails and he said, I mean, I don’t think you’ll give me the right information about the treatment. I’m I’m a little bit he basically is questioning what I was advising. And I said to him, look, you just need a new bridge.

[01:03:57] There’s there’s no other way I can put some guy see or composite or Dental in bonding agent over the exposed omentum. But it’s going to be short lasting. It won’t look great. I’ll just take your brush off, make anyone. So he kept emailing and ringing and, you know, you get a bad vibe from a patient. It was one of those. And I was so thankful for that point that I hadn’t started because he was really, really questioning what I was going to do on the 28th. And I just really had a bad vibe. So what I said to him was, look, you obviously don’t trust me. I said that to him, said, you don’t trust me. I was frank with him. And I said, look, I think you should go and see my dad, get a second opinion or go through the practise, get a second opinion. If it’s easier for you to come ACTC, absolutely fine. He’ll give you an unbiased opinion because I don’t need to make three unit bridge. If you want it, I’ll make you happy. I just want to help the patient. So he went to my dad. My dad saw him inspect the teeth and said, yeah, look, I just need a new bridge. It’s the only way to do it. And, you know, because my dad’s got grey hair, he’s lost his hair up here.

[01:05:14] Yeah. He always respects the older person.

[01:05:18] And they say me is like the young dentist. It’s just telling him he needs a three, four thousand pound bridge. How much that he paid. Yeah. And my dad came out of that appointment and he said to me, I mean, I don’t know what you’re saying.

[01:05:30] He’s a lovely guy. Cracklin like the bridge Bob’s your uncle will be done.

[01:05:37] So I said, Oh, Dad, you’ve saved. You obviously told him. You told me he’s the right patient. I just don’t have a good vibe, easterlies. I just need a new bridge. So Buchtmann took the cut of the bridge the 28th Payman some nice time. Prix’s made the bridge, came back for review, didn’t like it. The the shape politely. He didn’t like the fiddling with his tongue effect. This speech, the contact points were too tight. The take a position to leave you the Pontic was not the right shape. The sensitivity was still there. So everything that you could pick up that was wrong with the Dental treatment. That’s what he was telling me. And I gave my honest opinion. If I could improve on it, I will cut it off and he’ll be in next week. I’ll redo it. But I said to him, look, this I believe is good treatment. I you know, I don’t see majorly what else I can change with this because I’m not happy, not happy. So I, I said to him, look, go away for another couple of weeks if you want to remake remake. It came back for another review a couple of weeks later. I don’t like it. Everything’s wrong with it. Sasselov Then the remake it. I said, do you want a copy of your original bridge? Because you had that one for twenty five years. I just improved the proportions of the teeth to make it more aesthetically pleasing. But if you want uneven incisal edges and you just want your old bridge back but renewed, do you want me to copy your old one? Because I’ve got the original model. He said, yeah, actually can you just copy that? So I made a I cut the old bridgework off zirconia bridgework

[01:07:32] And yeah, that was fun.

[01:07:35] And then I got a copy of the originals, got the labs to scan the model and they made for me a new Zucconi operation, exactly the same shape as the model. So this is less of our ninety five percent accurate because there’s always going to be some discrepancy, but it’s ninety five percent. It’s what he had fitted it, not happy emails, phone calls, the shapes wrong. I don’t like the feeling on the back of my tongue. I said to him, this is a copy of your approach. Ninety five percent accurate. I can’t do anything else. Said I’m not happy, so I cut it off again.

[01:08:23] This is the second

[01:08:25] Time I’ve cut it off. I got love made today. My temps made. And I said, right, I’m going to leave you in temps now for three to six months on adjusted temps to the point where you’re happy. And then I’m going to copy that. And then then it has to be what you like. So I got him in Payman. My temps copied the originals shape to adjust the occlusion, checked his speech and saw his alleged length lip line, small line Pontic everything in Payman my shell temps. He went away for three to six months and he came back and said. I’m happy,

[01:09:10] I am happy. My I could not believe it. I was always like, this is crazy.

[01:09:16] I can’t believe you got to a point. So I said, right, all I need to do now is take a trail scan over your 10 feet in your mouth and I’ll send that to the lab. I’ll read tidy up the 28th and the preps, but the majority of the work and will overlay the two still fails to make the new farmers accountable. As per your peer, my terms. Do you consent for me to do that? He said Ammit. I’m happy with the temporaries. All that great comes in for prep day. This must be the fourth time I’ve taken these bridge off right upper left to devitalised this.

[01:09:59] Oh oh. This is just.

[01:10:04] I’m so sad. I’m so sad.

[01:10:06] Right.

[01:10:06] So Uplifter is now non-volatile for verifiers.

[01:10:13] I was left to one of the abutments.

[01:10:16] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So I

[01:10:18] Was uplifter. Non-Volatile one. The Abutments. And it’s a sclavos canal.

[01:10:24] Oh, may

[01:10:27] I have practised dentistry for 10 years. Yeah, but you’re giving me PTSD is coming back as those nightmare situations.

[01:10:35] Ok, so what. Will you do in the end? You do this

[01:10:40] In there in my outfit with the mask on the girl who goes in a proper sweat,

[01:10:47] Ok, because I don’t know how to do anything and I start drilling

[01:10:55] Into the tooth open and dress. I can’t find this canal.

[01:10:59] I cannot find this canal just

[01:11:02] Because my endo guy is not there at this point. I just need to open and dress it to get him out. I couldn’t find the canal.

[01:11:10] I’m so sad.

[01:11:12] So then I you get suspicious and I’ve done so now. And one of the abutment teeth, which is not ideal for a bridge. Right. The two is already a thin roof in itself, so I haven’t got a lot of resistance fracture, whatever. So I make the final bridge from the pier. My temps are fitted it two weeks ago. I’ve already had an email say it’s not right.

[01:11:40] Oh man. Wow. This is now the fourth

[01:11:48] Bridge I’ve made of a two and a half years. He’s been in temporaries for six months of adjusted the speech, the occlusion, the Pontic, the length, the polite to shape the contact points, the embracive spaces. And I’ve scanned the template and he told me he was happy, affected the final one, which I believe is a copy of it. He said it’s not a copy is different, but I physically have got the labs Ovalau overlay. The two are still files and ml the framework and make it exactly the same shape.

[01:12:23] So it seems like when when when a hygienist removes the crap of the back of your teeth for a day, it feels rough. And and then. And then it handles itself. Right. I know he’s he’s just like zooming into that moment. Right.

[01:12:37] I know. I know. This is so I think the learning point from her is

[01:12:43] The instincts of the beginning.

[01:12:45] And don’t listen to your dad. But yeah,

[01:12:51] Go with your gut instinct because if you are not feeling it, don’t start the case because it just really isn’t worth it. I think as dentists, we’ve met a lot of people over the years, patients, colleagues and whatever, and you learn how to you know, you understand very quickly what the character of the patient is like. So I think you have the learning point is just always go with your gut because you got to know me. Right. And I wish I never, ever started that case. Of course, it probably cost me just in lab, just in lab fees. It costs me four or five thousand pounds worth of lab fee. Yeah. And I’m trying to get it right for the patient. I never want an unhappy patient. I guess there’s some dentists out there that are probably given up halfway through. It said there’s no more that I can do for you. But I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried because I really want to make you happy. But you can’t make everyone happy. And that’s the learning point. We you know, you just can’t make everyone happy. So. So, yeah, I’ll have to I don’t know if I’m kind this off again or whether I just need to to move practise. I want I

[01:14:10] Think

[01:14:14] I think as you get as you get older and more experienced, you start to take this sort of thing a bit more in your stride. Right. Because you do because I haven’t been exposed to this that sort of pain for such a long time. You going through that really, really hurt the hell out of me, man. I have never going to be a dentist again. I it because I’m not as good as you either. Because know what I have that I’d have to like, send them to ALIL and pay all of his specialist fees as well.

[01:14:41] Yeah. Yeah. I think I

[01:14:43] Have become more you know, if a patient does try to get a little bit shirty or doesn’t you know, um, you know, I’m not going to take crap, you know, I’m not going to be bullied. And again, I think they say that I look at my F.D. and I look at the way that some of the patients talk to her. And I’m shocked that but I think they see a little bit of weakness or lack of confidence there and patients will pick up on that. I spent a lot of time with the FDA talking about communicating with a patient. And, you know, you want to win them over. You want that patient to go out and sing the praises, of course. So if you can really convey. That’s difficult. I’m a big believer of that, that

[01:15:25] Have become your biggest fan, isn’t it?

[01:15:28] Because a lot of time it’s just nerves and not actually a horrible person. It’s just the situation clinically. They don’t like the smell, the scared of the noises. They’re anxious about the injection and back. But I think

[01:15:42] That changes people. We take it in stride because, you know, we’re in there every day. But my dad’s about to go for a spinal operation. Right. And, you know, it’s it’s a worry. It’s a problem. We’re all stressed about it. You know, he’s in his 80s that goes into his three spines and stick the bits together and all that. And, you know, you’re stressed, you know, and we know people are stressed at the dentist. So you’re right. No, I’m sure someone is. But most people most patients aren’t being intentionally short or anything like that. But I bet your mum’s your mum and dad are ideal for talking to you about these sort of problems. Right. You know, they see themselves.

[01:16:28] Yeah, my mum has got a bit of a reputation,

[01:16:36] So,

[01:16:36] Yeah, she’s lovely. I’ve learnt a lot from them, but I’ve learnt a lot from the courses.

[01:16:42] And what are your plans going forward? What do you think?

[01:16:46] You think the next big project is Square Mile? Yes. You know, Brickfield’s is great where a place where we can, you know, we’re comfortable and where, you know, we’re doing well there and enjoy the dentistry square mile with the next project challenge. Yeah, the challenge. I love the challenge and I see something special there. So I think we can turn that into a great practise. And again, clinically, it’s a great, great team. So I think if we got the the issue there in London is there’s a finite amount people that can afford that type of dentistry, because if it gets the nitty gritty, you know, and you’re talking about charging five hundred pounds from anybody composite, if a patient needs just five fillings, you can imagine how expensive that is for them.

[01:17:37] There’s a lot of people with who’ve got the money for that in London. Yeah.

[01:17:41] But because of competition also.

[01:17:43] There are. There is. But, you know, you don’t need that many patients. I would I wouldn’t worry yourself too much about that, you know, but if you can provide the you know, I was going to say, you know, you’re a fan of high end stuff like your your your Novikov boy.

[01:18:00] You know,

[01:18:03] You should you know, I was talking Robbie, Robbie Hughes was saying, I want to be the Louis Vuitton of teeth, but you should be the Novikov.

[01:18:11] Ok, I think I’ve calmed down a bit since the baby. When I do, I went I went to I went

[01:18:20] To Novikoff with Nick Saxbe. Do you know this story, though? I went to Nick’s. I went to Novakovic. Nick said he and the wives. And I was I was just getting to know Nick. We didn’t really you know, we were we were friends. But I think the first time she’d been out together for like a meal with the couples. And this is a point where I’d actually been to Novikoff. I was I got another call once a week

[01:18:47] Where everybody knows, you know, and I

[01:18:50] Got to know the manager and the waiters. And that was me. Acting is the big bollocks.

[01:18:58] I well,

[01:18:58] It’s not a call with Nick and his wife. And Matty was there. And we sat down and the waiter came over and he goes, I mean, nice to see you again. We have the usual. And Nick says he’s like, who is this guy?

[01:19:13] So I said, Yeah, we’ll have the usual.

[01:19:17] And he goes, I mean, I’ve actually you know what? I’ve got something special for you today. So he must have mug written on my forehead because

[01:19:27] He said, I’ve got a

[01:19:28] Lobster it and

[01:19:30] It will sue you

[01:19:31] For down to a tape. And I said, let’s have the lobster do half of

[01:19:36] It and grilled half of it tempura.

[01:19:39] So he brings this lobster in and we’re all looking at this thing is ridiculous, right? Sort of a bus and he puts it on the table and we’re enjoying the meal. We have a few drinks and then we get the bill at the end.

[01:19:55] Oh, my. The lobster

[01:19:59] Was four hundred and thirty pounds

[01:20:01] Over. So I thought you were going to save all that, but

[01:20:04] I lost it.

[01:20:08] So I had a bill later in Dubai where, you know, I was having so much fun. The guy would say, I’ve got a real special tequila one. There was smoky and I was like, yeah, I’ve got yourself know, we had like, you know. Five, six shots and the sounds turned around to me when it’s going to be a bit expensive, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, of course, buy it. It’s going to be expensive. How much do you reckon it’s going to be? And I was like, there was five of us. I said, it’s going to be like this is going to be like fifteen hundred. And then the the just before the bill came, the manager came. Anyway he went, this restaurant is always completely, fully booked, but we always hold some tables back for VIP. But he when he said p, I suddenly twigged

[01:20:58] What’s going to happen here.

[01:21:01] Suffice to say I was wrong, that it was much more expensive than that. Each one each one of those tequilas was one hundred pounds. Each shot. Yeah. So when we were going to have one yourself, each shot was like six hundred, he was just doing it. So we totally got that.

[01:21:18] So the next night you went to Leaders, but

[01:21:22] I was surprised you haven’t got more storeyed Novikov stories that because Boycott’s is like that isn’t it?

[01:21:27] You know, I mean, I think there’s a few stories that you can’t really tell on here, but

[01:21:32] I think

[01:21:34] We do like to have a good time. And you’re right. I do I do like to do other nice things in life, whether it be a nice holiday. I mean, the best holiday we went on. And I’m I’m so lucky that we got to do is actually my honeymoon. And we went on safari to Masai Mara and that was, you know, that was just such a great experience. And we had a lovely hotel and. Yeah.

[01:21:59] What did you guys meet?

[01:22:02] So me and Marty, it’s random, I met her in Tiger Tiger in London.

[01:22:10] What, you pulled her classy? Well, I was with my boys domestiques shout out a few words outside the car. And I think she looks to me like, who’s this creep? But a source for that.

[01:22:27] And then actually, we were both studying dentistry, but we didn’t know. Amazing. Oh, yeah. You know, it started from there. And I knew after a while that she was the one. So I proposed in Dubai and we got married in Florence a couple of years ago. And yeah, we just had our first baby three months ago. So. So how does that feel? Yeah, she’s been a great support to me. And, you know, again, I would be I wouldn’t be where I am without her either.

[01:22:57] How does it feel to be at that?

[01:22:59] I think every that size, this size is amazing,

[01:23:03] It is is it is.

[01:23:09] It’s a strange one because I miss him and I miss my son because I’m a work, I wish I could be at home and I love coming home and spending time with him. Is it just such a great feeling? And I said to you before that when I before I had this conversation, when I was in the labour room, I was in bed so, so emotional. And I’ve got such thick skin. And, you know, I’ve I haven’t had a rough upbringing, you know, that I went to private school, but I’ve experienced quite a few things with. So I’m probably wrong, you know, some not so nice people when I was younger, hanging out with the wrong crowd. So but, you know, even though I’ve got this maybe tough exterior, I think, you know, having a child is just a love that you can never describe. It’s just completely different. That’s the only way I can describe it and can describe it. And the I think that I’m for saying that it is the truth.

[01:24:11] No, no, there is I mean, it’s it’s, you know, biochemically that way anyway. But but also, I think, you know, it makes you a better person being at that. I mean, I think yours is a bit too young for that so far.

[01:24:25] I mean. Yeah, I mean, the new dad mode.

[01:24:28] Yeah. But it does make you feel better, but there’s just no

[01:24:31] Getting away screaming. I’m going to my little shit.

[01:24:35] Well, you know, the thing is, you end up having to be a better person, a role model, you know, than you know. You can be going to self-destruct. Right. But but when you have a kid watching you do that, that sort of tempts you. Yeah. It’s been lovely to have you, but I’m good

[01:24:53] And I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I’m going to

[01:24:56] Finish it with Prav perhaps final questions. Even though Prav can’t be with us today, you’re you’re a bit too young, but you’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your loved ones around you. Or three pieces of advice that you’d like to give them.

[01:25:16] Can you order me a KFC

[01:25:22] Knife,

[01:25:23] Three piece of advice to my loved ones, I would say be honest. You know, and just treat others with, as usual things, treat others with respect. I think that’s so important that, you know, you you were trying to help others. People do. So I hope I can say this about myself. It’s only because a lot of people say about me, but people sound quite generous. I do love giving to people. So I think though I don’t know why, I just like doing it. So I think I would always say give to others where you can. I think that’s very important in lots of different aspects, whether it be education or just general life values and tips or financially, whatever it may be. But I think if you can give something to someone and always look out to help others, I think that’s a good trait to have. And the third bit of advice, other than be honest and give to others, I think now definitely be humble. I’ve been humbled after I said to you before we said it, I agree to the beginning. I was a little shit. And I’ve had Facebook messages about, you know, my my life on Instagram and things that I am I guess it seems to be Sharafi.

[01:26:46] I’ve had a lot like that.

[01:26:48] Tollman Yeah. Yeah. But I think I just had messages like that. So I think again, that takes you down a few pegs. There is no real need to to be like that. I have sort of matured over the years, so yeah, I can also be humble.

[01:27:05] The next one of Prav questions is you’ve got there very happy questions. You you’ve got you’ve got 30 days left. You’ve got your health.

[01:27:18] I guess

[01:27:22] One word. Yeah, that was

[01:27:28] That was the case, you

[01:27:29] You have

[01:27:31] Elaborated, but the one word answer was excellent. So it’s been really, really lovely. But I really I’ve really enjoyed it. And we need to meet up and have it delivered.

[01:27:46] Yeah. And thanks my it’s been I think what you’re doing is great. It’s good that we can chat about this stuff. I think hopefully there’s a few things in there that would help other people. Again, I’m always looking to inspire the new generation I see with the FDA come through. They can have a tough time this year because of covid. Yeah, I really have a lack of experience clinically and again communicating with patients. So they’re going to be a little bit lost. But I think, again, what you’re doing, hopefully with interviews like this and, you know, thanks again for having me on, but I just want to give a few tips to to other people. Hopefully they will find their own way. You don’t have to copy me. You don’t have to copy Chris. So you don’t have to copy. If you don’t have the copy, anyone, you find your own way of how you want to do it. And I think doors will open for you about it.

[01:28:38] Those are your three mentors, Dave, you and Chris. So what a lovely combination back. But it was lovely to have you. Lovely. Lovely to have you. Thank you so much for doing this.

[01:28:52] All right. Thanks. Bye. All the best

[01:28:55] Days is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole

[01:29:15] Thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming

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[00:00:00] You know, for any patient, the psychology are really, really important, but it’s all about trying to gauge if you’re going through the process of making a set of five appointments or whatever it is you end up doing. It’s all about sort of drip feeding your thoughts throughout it, saying it’s very much know people would say it’s if you tell them at the end it’s a mistake, if you tell them at the start it’s 10 cents or whatever. You know, if you say after the fact, then you’re making excuses.

[00:00:29] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki,

[00:00:47] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Rupert Monkhouse onto the podcast, may be known to most of us as dentistry, but on Instagram I come across Rupert, who’s managed to make the unsexy, sexy. Good to have you back

[00:01:05] To just having me on

[00:01:06] The list. We’ll get to how you got so heavily, heavily into removable prosthetics. But let’s start from the beginning. What’s your background story? Where did you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? What kind of kid were you?

[00:01:19] Yeah, I grew up in in the Midlands, in Worcester. And yeah, a lot of what I was doing it sort of early on school days was I was doing a lot of swimming at the time, so I was very heavily involved in that and think dentistry. I got involved sort of 15, 16, a GCSE, I think it was. And I was just at my but my dentist and he was doing fish sealants another and I found it interesting. What’s this? What’s that. And the week for work experience was coming up in the next half term or whatever it was, wasn’t I hadn’t got anything lined up yet. So I said, can I come with you? And that was it. And I thought, this is quite cool and went from there. So it’s sort of solons. It really is not something I’ve been thinking on for ages. And it was just sort of these last two years and I was quite science Yanyuwa. So that had limited myself with subjects. But yeah, it just sort of came from that.

[00:02:11] Did you say swimming?

[00:02:13] Yeah, yeah. I was a competitive summersaults doing like 16 hours a week in the pool. Oh my God. I was in the gym and that kind of stuff until third year of being asked to stop training and then carried on coaching for the last two years at uni. So I didn’t really have much time to do to do anything else

[00:02:29] That, you know, we’ve had a few people on here who were to have athletes of one one description or another. I mean, I’m thinking of Robbie Hughes was a big martial artist and a few. Do you find that that sort of athlete’s mindset, are you applying that to dentistry in any way, you know, that sort of beating yourself and going up against your, you know, being better today than you were yesterday and the discipline and the he said obsession. Do you think it does relate somehow?

[00:03:01] Yeah, I’m definitely quite a perfectionist, but I think I was about that like just personality anyway. But I think definitely of the discipline was is like a really big thing. So, you know, the three days a week I was getting up at quarter five to get in the pool at half past six. So I caught to get in the fourth quarter to six and then go straight to school and that kind of stuff. So you had to balance your work really well and you have to be disciplined with getting stuff done. And like our final was like in fifth year I was coaching rather than actually swimming at the time. But I was in Sheffield for two weeks, the two weeks of finals and I was in Sheffield. Well, I literally had my summer in the morning, went down Saturday exam and came back the same day. And that was there for another week afterwards. And I had to really balance getting all the revision done. And but it gives you that ability to do it because you had to do it. So I think it definitely is a part of that discipline side of it.

[00:03:58] So what level were you swimming at and teaching? Coaching.

[00:04:02] So as a as a swimmer, I went to the Commonwealth Trials 2014, so I was like top twenty. That came seventeenth. And then coaching I coached to National Tewson is where National Medals, British British championship medals under fifteen on the seventeen. Well so pretty, pretty high level.

[00:04:24] And so it’s a way past just the question of swimming. Right. Was everything else, the nutrition side and all, all of that sort of jazz.

[00:04:34] Yeah, definitely. Like sort of the, it was a lot of self-taught stuff, I mean and researching and there’s loads of articles and forums and things and going into that and then the coaching, I’ve I’ve done my qualifications, so I’m not qualified to be a like a head coach if I wanted to and things like that. But that was more just from my own experience of of being an athlete. Yeah. That’s on the of the backup career. If I want day or.

[00:05:01] Commentator Oh yeah.

[00:05:02] Oh that’s great. I’ll be off to Tokyo. The idea.

[00:05:08] So tell me about the Dental school. Where did you qualify.

[00:05:12] I was it kings qualified four years ago out twenty. Seventeen. So that was, that was good. So then I was still doing some training stuff the first couple of years and then it just got too busy after that. So then just sort of but still doing the coaching but not, not getting in the pool and then at King’s up in the up and Guys Tower really enjoyed a bit of a change of pace from little old town of Worcester. So it’s a great place to be in. Such a big school, you meet so many different people then, and we take them, and that’s where a lot of the stuff really started for me because I like children. So they’re very, very passionate. CHUTER you know, those kind of teachers that are sort of dragging you on and who was there in his name is Andre Topolice. He’s back out in Cyprus now, but he was running the Matchbox prosthodontics guys as well. So it was a bit of that. Still, he’s just a fantastic teacher and it really got him enthused. And and he sort of just drove down, sort of let you dive into it. And that’s that’s where it all sort of came from, that really.

[00:06:14] So, I mean, you know, I talk to a lot of people and, you know, it is a standard advice that people give to become really good generalist first and then look at, you know, specialising in. And when I say specialising, I don’t even necessarily mean the specialist, you know, name of being a specialist. But, you know, dialling it into something very specific for me. Some of the most successful people I’ve met in dentistry specialised really early. You know, they started knowing what they wanted to do really, really early on. What do you say to that? I mean, I know you’ve got you’ve got a very good general knowledge of dentistry. And just by listening to your life sessions, you can say that you’re definitely a Dental geek of sorts.

[00:07:00] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:02] But it sounds like you’re saying you’re telling me in your third year of dental school you decided you were going to get dentures

[00:07:10] And that it was definitely in third year. That’s where that started. Yeah, but then in fourth year, I had a really good perio tutor. And I like, you know, I’m sort of one of those I like. I’ll dive into it and then get really, really drawn into it. So then I was like 40. I loved. Yeah. And then in fifth year it was just like just the good life. Really good General Collins tutors and just really enjoyed sort of GDP and it’s very much just just like that. But then the more it moved on, it’s sort of that the pro side of it, I did enjoy more and more. But again, it was just sort of fluky. So I went up to to Yorkshire for my birthday. I went up to hope and they had

[00:07:51] A lot of full. Full. Yeah. Right.

[00:07:55] Yeah. Very, very, very high needs. Very high needs. We have an in-house lab so the technicians on site and you can pop in and plant stuff and chat through things. But we also had the station contract like East Riding of Yorkshire, so they would come in for an assessment and then the next month it was like the first Monday of the month, I think it was. And then the next month they’d come in. And if they hadn’t been made immediate and by their GDP, they got sent to me to make seven dentures. So it meant that erm I, FDR just made tons and tons and tons and just got the ball cap rolling. And then my first practise outside of FDR down the road in Fulham, again, just like really, really high needs and just it just carried on like that and then started the work where I am now with my prosthodontics Dental and I’ve just been as just sort of spiralled like that. It’s just sort of all fallen to guide me down that path.

[00:08:49] There was a practise in how it wasn’t the one year. It wasn’t this gigantic one five something five five,

[00:08:59] Four, three. Yeah it well yeah it

[00:09:02] Was really amazing. Amazing what a place. Just I mean I don’t know what it was like now but I went there maybe twelve years ago or something.

[00:09:15] Are they both houses since then.

[00:09:17] I mean they owned every single house on the block.

[00:09:20] Right. Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:22] And is it still the same. Was that the Doctor Green Bridge.

[00:09:26] So it’s his sons run it now.

[00:09:28] Yeah.

[00:09:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:31] But what a crazy place that is. I mean they’ve literally bought every single house on the on the block

[00:09:37] And yeah I think it’s five terraced houses. Might be six now. It’s a crazy place but it was an awesome place to do today and they’re so, so supportive and you could just do whatever you not whatever you want to. But, you know, there’s a one way if you want to be a good GDP in the NHS, doing loads of stuff will teach you that. If you want to focus on doing really nice composite work, go for it. If you want to do loads of whatever it is, is like will help you to do it because there were so many dentists there. I think it’s sort of sixteen, seventeen dentists you’d find even if it wasn’t a training, you could find someone to mentor you and help you with something

[00:10:17] What a crazy cause is. And what were the Christmas parties like? I mean, how many how many people, how, how many employees were there? Just like giant. It was like a Dental hospital.

[00:10:26] Yeah. It must, it must be like fifty, forty fifty surely

[00:10:31] More than

[00:10:33] A massive, massive. I think we had about eight receptionists and nine receptionists or something. Well it probably was over. If they actually but it’s it was an awesome, awesome place and super lucky to have as my foundation because I thought my got it got Leeds or Yorkshire won or whatever it was. And I was, but I wouldn’t change it for the world. I want to I wanted to stay in London. I was hoping to carry on my coaching in South London and things like that. And I was actually quite sort of gutted, really. I sort of got but went back and it was sort of similar to what’s a similar size, similar sort of demographic and things. But then the practise was just completely lucked out. I wouldn’t change it at all.

[00:11:13] And then you went straight from there to a practise in full and you say,

[00:11:16] Yeah, so the big one on the North End Road. And it’s just until I read that the big blue one year 30th is quite it was quite sort of similar similar sort of patient base, similar sort of size as well, because that one’s fourteen surgeries, VSS, isn’t it. Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s huge. There’s two new ones too. And then there’s Bassman as well and there’s an upstairs surgeries too.

[00:11:44] So we should we should, we should let everyone know that. I mean you live five minutes away from the once one seats away from each other. Yeah.

[00:11:53] Not too

[00:11:53] Far. And yet we’re doing this overservice. We should go for that beer right after this.

[00:11:59] You look looking good if you want to follow suit.

[00:12:06] Ok, explain it to me, man, because I’ve got a interestingly similar early story to you as far as prosthetics goes. Yeah, because I did a house job. It was called it was called restorative dentistry, but a good third of it was prosthetics. And and there was a I study in Cardiff. And Cardiff was one of these high needs, sort of awful towns as well. And I had a teacher I had a consultant who I loved as well in Cardiff. You used to just really just make it interesting. And then my job was with a guy called Nick Mahindra. Have you come across him now? So he does this thing now where he raises increases vertical dimension by like ridiculous amounts. Now, this doesn’t seem like such a big thing to do, but back then they used to tell us, you know, like three millimetres at most you can add. And he was like doing thirty, but he was doing it. Indentures was doing in the benches and changing faces. So I watched him. He would even set up the teeth himself, you know, and I remember him getting, you know, talking about sort of the mindset of the the Dental patient and all that. And and then I remember thinking as a young guy, I felt like I just didn’t want to just have older patients, you know? And he was in Harley Street and I used to go over there and everything. And it was that was exciting. And then we looked at bleaching and. But what about you? I mean, do you not think that was the story there? I mean, OK, you like it, right?

[00:13:40] But why not? Why that and not long bleach and blonde. Yeah. Yeah. I like like you said, the changes you can make, I really enjoy that. And the more the more I’ve gotten into it now and the more I’m working with my awesome technician, just all these incredible things, you know, the more I think it’s a blank canvas and you can get a bit arty with a really and you can make massive, massive difference and then you can do it with other bits as well. But I like the planning side of it. I like the big picture and really getting sort of thinking things through. And as you say, like changing, changing over there and opening them up or putting them back in the right position. And almost at the start of side of it, I do sort of always will. Maybe I can do some story. I don’t I don’t mind the Orlando, you know, I could do a bit of a start to move it, but I think I just like the scope that you have with it. And not just I still do all general dentistry, but I just enjoy this and I, I share it only that’s the only stuff I share that I still enjoy all sides of that. I’m not that bothered about cosmetic stuff, but I think it’s more that in the practise that I’m in now, we’ve got the ended on this. We’ve got the periodontist, we’ve got the guy who loves all of his invasion bonds which go, if you’re going to come here, you may as well go and see the guy is going to do it better. And I have no qualms in doing that because I get I get really stressed about doing the bonding and things like that. I just I just feel more comfortable doing doing the pro side of it

[00:15:15] And is is is getting a high needs area. I mean, how are you doing so much for forwork. Are you getting referred it

[00:15:22] So the it’s all private where I am now and it’s mainly referrals or it’s it’s a lot of self referrals. So I’m working under essentially under my boss, Nick Fay. He goes across the dentist and most of the cases. I’ve been sharing on Instagram from literally since we came back from lockdown so that literally within the last eight, nine months and it’s things like when we came back, we’ve been running sort of adverts for teeth in a day and things like that. And if they that comes through and they say maybe it’s not quite what I had in mind or budget or whatever they say, or you can have a sense of self complaints and then they come my way. So that’s why I’m doing a lot of cases. Actually, it came from it came from that. And the girls on the phone know now that if someone calls asking about dentures, they get some strange as a new patient rather than one of the other generalists.

[00:16:18] But are you not going to get involved with implant retained and

[00:16:22] See, I do some I do the actual I’m starting to move the prosthodontics side of it. So the Fed, if they are going to have a property in danger. Yeah. Then if they currently don’t have implants, they get sent to me to make the complaints and then they have them for a couple of months and then they review again with Nick. And then Nick uses that and says, right, well, this is the procedures we’re happy with. I need to put the implants here, here, here and here in the right position does it and then retrofits them onto that. So that’s how we started to do it now. And we’re looking at these can do the training with with all of us training on more of the restorative side of it as well to look at doing that. And I do want to pursue it more. I’m looking at applying to sort of empty and then in the next few years, hopefully, and then go down that route. Yeah, yeah. But it’s just finding the finding the time to even be a part time for years and the money as well.

[00:17:18] That’s a big commitment. It’s a big,

[00:17:20] Massive commitment there. And there is definitely the group. I think I want to go down, but I’m still sort of figuring out how do I want to do a Start-Up, 95 percent certain that that’s the way I’m going to go.

[00:17:32] So give us give us some clues. I mean, look, there are some people going to be listening to this thinking this is a lost art. And, you know, it’s like something something they’re not going to be doing much. I mean, I’m thinking of first, my wife works in a city practise with within an insurance company that I’m sure she’s not doing much removeable at all like four years. But there are clearly other people who are doing quite a lot of prosthetics. So for you, what are what are some of the key points that most dentists don’t know and should know or could know easily? Most. Most of us are missing out.

[00:18:10] The main thing is, is on the impressions side of things. I think it’s everyone falls into really bad habits really, really quickly. And it’s not very straight. And don’t try. And the mouth just put the alginate in there and go for it. Rather than adapting your primary, try and using different materials and build in that impression and things like that. That’s a big thing that we’ve tried. You mentioned the lives and stuff we’ve been doing and we’ve been doing a few about above that kind of thing. I think it’s something that people just don’t you get taught it, but then it’s just so easy to fall into those bad habits when you come when you come out and go into a mixed practise practise and you’ve got 50 minutes to do a set of primary impressions. And it’s, you know, go, go, go and get it sorted. But, yeah, I think that’s that’s part of it. But you say like it’s a diet, but there’s still aspects of it, even if you’re not doing it that are important. So if you’re doing important work and you’re doing a full Arche, it’s still the basics of how to make a complete Danja OBD aesthetics or if you’re doing cosmetic stuff as well, it’s still small design is still using those principles. So even if you’re not going to touch the Dental special tree over again, the principles of it are still really, really valuable. Even if you’re doing Edmondo, looking at your ratios and things like that, it’s important to appreciate that.

[00:19:30] You’re right. I mean, back back in my day, the only thing we would have been taught about small design, would it be in prosthetics? But what about when you qualified? Was there anything else?

[00:19:42] No, it’s I think it

[00:19:43] Was Dental course. Does it move over?

[00:19:45] It doesn’t change. It doesn’t have I I was just I met a couple of friends the other night and we were chatting about how we’re all doing these tabletop onlies and things and bondies stuff that we weren’t we weren’t all from conventional teaching in fourth year, fixed prosthodontics or whatever it was. As you do that, you go and do these courses or you read these biomimetic articles or whatever. And if again, we’re being told this thing, I only graduated four years ago from, you know, this great place in London. Why are we is it hasn’t it hasn’t moved that much. And we didn’t I think it’s one of those things that you do a day of Implanon, a day on impulse. You do maybe a day or one lecture on this is what this is or it’s you know, someone comes in and does an after after uni thing for the Dental society on small design or something like that. But it’s still not part of it. I think that’s not what the universities are for making Vitrano, although they’re not making private dentists or anything like that. But it’s still is principles of that. And you’ve still got to break it down into those basic building blocks and then you can use it. And it’s sort of that’s that’s why I think with the prosthodontics as well, there’s not is seen as a bit of a dark art, but there are still there it is. But it’s still sort of there are the basic principles. And then you just extrapolate on those and you can work out more difficult things.

[00:21:14] Yeah, I know. I know you do this thing, the Impression Club. Right. But is there digital? Can you take scans of potential disasters or not? So I don’t know.

[00:21:24] So some people think, yeah, so I’ve done I did a case where we used a digital file to make a set of special trays simply because we were it was a case that was being planned for some implants and naked, already done the work up and all this. And he’s got a digital wax up and things like that. And then he the patient had some medical issues and couldn’t go through with it at the time, but needed some teeth. So so as I I’ve got space tomorrow and my lab on Dental place printed off these prints off the files and made me a tray. And I picked it up that evening and we did the impressions the next day. But it’s still got its I don’t think the potential of

[00:22:04] It’s the second we wouldn’t be able to do the.

[00:22:07] Yeah, it’s because I’m not going to get aggressive. Yeah. You don’t, you don’t know what the. Yeah. You don’t want the tissues are but also actually getting back to the main things that you want. Yeah. You can’t, you can’t get a functional sulcus, you can’t really get right back and get the tuberose these really nice or retracting the cheeks out of the way because the scan doesn’t do that. So this tray that I had was really, really short. Actually spend longer adapting it with silicone or whatever, that I may as well just toss a stock three hours and probably even got the same impression, but twice as fast. So I think for certain things, like maybe making a little bounded saddle chrome denture, but the digital, you might be added to it, but still always be taking a conventional secondary because it’s just I don’t think it’s there yet.

[00:22:54] And as far as materials, what are your favourite materials for full and for partial

[00:23:01] Silicon, silicon, for anything that’s adventurous and the primary impression and then alginate on top and then for the is for Parshall’s is alginate and retentionist is silicon putty like body image and body depending on the size of the underlying tissue so that you’ve got more balance. If the pressure Seper Lightbody where you’ve got loose tissue and medium body, where you’ve got firmer tissue, and Putsy, where you’ve got really, really strong tissue so that across the board you’ve got a nice, nice balance with silicon silicon all the way for the attention of the don’t touch, don’t touch the constitutional level.

[00:23:40] The issue is that just you or is that is that the way it’s a.m..

[00:23:46] I had a while ago, actually, since I sent the case to two and 200 to that changed of third. And it was like, what are you doing is greenstick? And Zawia, like I taught you for years. And I was I’m just trying this. I’m just trying this. The silicon stuff based out of the guy in Japan, Dr. Arby. So that’s sort of based on reading around what he’s doing there. Yeah, they’ve all got that place and certain things. It’s that I just prefer the handling of the silicon’s and it just works reliably for me. I know that it works well as I try and do something else and then worry that I’m not going to get the result that I want.

[00:24:23] And then as far as registration, are you doing something different to what we were all talked

[00:24:29] About in this RIM’s nothing too fancy. Haven’t really mentioned the Gothic arch tracing it. It’s I need I need to probably just to see if it’s going to make I haven’t felt the need to, but I probably haven’t had enough cases where I probably needed to to get it done. So I had my my one to one on the line with Ellenburg. And so that was good. Yeah. So I know I need to do it now for this one.

[00:24:55] The really the really beautiful thing about the work that you’re putting in is for me, OK, you’ve got you’ve got the, the small rotations and the teeth and so on, but the gingiva the thing. So I guess that’s the technician. Right. Are you, have you got input in that. Well, how does that work? I mean, how do you make something so life. I even noticed you had the attached bit was darker than the which is when you think about it. Why haven’t we always done that? But how does that work? Do you have to sell that to the patient that it’s going to be? Or do you discuss it with the patient? How does that work?

[00:25:29] Yes, and even even the rotations and things, you know, we sort of start from the get go and even that the consultation. I’ve obviously got a bunch of photos of different cases now. And I sort of say, you know, you can have this, you can have this. I was initially doing like a two tiered sort of system. But generally now where with where I’m at now, I’m just I’m just doing the fancy ones, the sort of this is what we do. And if you want if you don’t want to have that, you can have the guns more simple if you want to. But it’s all it’s all the same sort of thing. But yeah. You sure. In a few cases and see what they like. Some people don’t don’t want a really fancy gun work and it’s fine. Or we get them to bring in pictures and stuff for the angles of the teeth and things like that. So that’s all sort of the patient feeds that in that the gun work is all with photos. So we’ve got actually a ginger shade died. So my my technician, Ricardo, he works exclusively with either cloud product. So I’ve got an overclassified guy out of all these different shades of paint and he’s got some more purples and yellowy tins and things like that. So it’s about six six thirteen different colours and exactly the same as you would be taking shade guys photos for teeth, the lips and take the three photos of the three different tabs. So then he can sort of see the idea of what the gums look like anyway. And then he’s got all the different colours and he actually processes that is normal and then he’s adding those on. That’s actually a composite of different coloured composites that he’s actually adding over the top and then glazes the whole thing. And this is actually additional layers that he’s adding onto it rather than coming out of the flask in one piece like that.

[00:27:11] And what’s what’s been the reaction of of young dentists to, you know, putting these beautiful pictures on Instagram? And it’s the last place I mean, you know, these platforms sort of, you know, developed in the. But if three years ago you told me the going to be a guy who’s going to be taking pictures of complete dentures and making them. Exciting and sexy on black with with reflections, I believe that was supposedly people’s reaction. I mean I mean, you must have inspired a bunch of people.

[00:27:44] I I’d like to think I think I get a lot of a lot of really nice feedback. I do see a few people doing a few pictures and it’s quite, quite similar. It’s cool. It’s no one’s no one’s original. Someone was doing the same kind of things as well that I haven’t seen nothing. And it’s all about the photos of soldiers. What Menasche pictures on his phone. When did that cause? Two years ago. And I thought, well, I’m going to do it for what I want to do that I had really, really nice feedback. And I think more people, just obviously people were doing Dental cases. But I’m seeing more maybe I’m just following more people, but I’m definitely seeing more people who are doing on the page sort of composite work and actually posting the odd Dental case, which is almost that people weren’t thinking, well, let’s not share the Dental cases, but yeah. Yeah, definitely. And more more of it coming up. Which is which is cool. Yeah.

[00:28:37] I mean, the thing is, we were all trained in that much more than we were trained in composites. So it kind of it kind of takes you back to that whole whole bit of Dental story. But at the same time, it’s interesting, you know, that that is still the case. I really didn’t think that thought. I thought by now the Dental course would be much more sort of digital planning, none of that. Right. Scanning or scanning both

[00:29:04] Of your calls. So you knew it existed. You knew it existed. But we didn’t we didn’t have a scanner on the postgrads to the postcard. Obviously, they have scanners and things like that because they have to do all that side of it, that we didn’t have anything outside that that maybe it’s changed in the last four or five years, that it’s still not not a

[00:29:26] True even even in the last four or five years, a lot’s changed in scanning in terms of the penetration market penetration of it. Yeah. What else do you get up to, man outside of work? What’s your biggest interest?

[00:29:41] Well, I was doing a bit of coaching still for the swimming stuff that the covid sort of killed that off. And I don’t do normal photography, not adventures that again, covid sort of curtailed that a bit because it was more when I would travel. I’d try and go away sort of two or three times a year and do photography there. Obviously, living and living in London, you can still go and do some some nice photography. So I spend spend most of my time doing doing that and just sports in general. Watch a bit of a bit of cricket. Maybe I might get roped into a Sunday game next week. I think the shorts some players, I’m going to go and turn the arm over, but yeah, photos, not adventures is usually what I’m doing. And I found that I’m just doing more and more of the work, work, photography, so I need to bring it back the other way, I think.

[00:30:26] So were you a photographer before you were Dental photographer?

[00:30:32] Yeah. So I’ve been doing sort of photography as a sort of serious hobby for about five years. Mostly I like stuff about being in London at uni and going around it then travels and saw landscape photography and cityscape photography and things like that. So I knew I knew my way around a camera before I went on. Yeah, that’s one of these goals and stuff. Yeah. So it’s then that that’s the beauty of our course is that it’s still had so much, so much to offer because you have the full range of people on that course and still somebody within 100 which we which to hold on sort of thing that you can catch up on. But the BBC, that is the whole black backdrop things of that is so simple to do once you know how to do it. But it just until you know how to do it is it’s crazy, but says I still enjoy it. And that’s why I think partly I do all these do all these Instagram photos, because it’s just it makes me enjoy the work that I’m doing. And I enjoy the sight of him making a nice picture, whether it’s over a mountain range somewhere or of an impression, I just enjoy the process of actually producing it, producing an image.

[00:31:48] And when you when you went on your travels, what were the most beautiful places that you saw and photographed?

[00:31:55] We did Machu Picchu a couple of years ago, and we did all the mountains and lakes and the salt flats in Bolivia and the same trip, which is pretty awesome. And just all of all of Vietnam, just the most beautiful place that we tried to get around a fair bit in the last few years that we did in the last 18 months, not doing anything. So, yes, it means that work since taking over, isn’t it? That has been the same for you. Just suddenly realised that I’ve been back for 12 months straight and not really taking a break. I think it’s quite

[00:32:27] Interesting at the moment. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, it’s not the same for me because I’m not clinical. Right. But but my wife is so. So I get the I get the feedback and I mean, it’s weird that it’s now kind of normal, right. That you what you’re having to do in the clinic and everyone’s just accepted that it is what it is. And I don’t know, I find she’s much more tired now when she’s come back from a day of work than than she used to be before all the precautions and at the PPE and all that. But at the same time, you know, she’s been really lucky to have almost a single dentist who’s not happy. Obviously, there’s the associate story. Some associates have been treated badly and there’s the technician story. Quite a lot of technicians. The NHS was definitely in issues. You’ve got a lot of technicians follow you, right?

[00:33:22] Yeah. Yeah. I’d say probably 30, 40 percent of them are actually technicians,

[00:33:27] Whether because of the just because of the work.

[00:33:31] I think some people think I’m a technician as well. Generally, I think I think they do think I’m a technician. Yeah. I think they just enjoy seeing their work or what they do highlighted in the way that it isn’t normally highlighted, I guess. And and my guys, Ricardo, is very, very, very good at what he does. So it’s it’s almost that. And because all my stuff is exclusive, he has you know, it’s almost it’s it’s a fanpage for him almost. So the technicians will want to follow that. Yes. But I think as well, they like a lot of the feedback we get from the technicians is how I talk about what I do and how I go about it and the relationship I have with Ricardo. And I think they don’t always feel that they get that level of communication or whatever it is back. So I think they quite that’s a lot of the feedback I get as well, is that it’s a bit different maybe than what they get from from their clinicians

[00:34:30] When you look back at your your short career. But for your your sort of back story and how it’s all panned out, there’s an element of discipline from the sports. There’s an element of teaching from the sports. Yeah. Do you think that’s the way you’re going to go? You’re going to be a teacher? I feel like, you know, it’s one of those things anyone could or could not be a teacher, but some people really thrive in it.

[00:34:59] Yeah, I just I definitely enjoy I think I’d love to go back to the guys and do a Friday afternoon or something, and I definitely would want to go and do some decent teaching a bit down the line. And yeah, I enjoy the sort of that’s where the live sessions started out, was partly saying, well, let’s go through a few cases. Men, men retire to go through a few cases, partly to stop or to give me something to quickly send when I received the same didn’t like all the time. But how to do something like his his a thirty minute video and then it just sort of shifted a little bit because I had good feedback and people saying Do you want to do one. But that was partly the intention of it as well, was to do a bit of sort of almost indirect teaching that just sort of share the passion, share the knowledge as I guess. But no, definitely, definitely enjoy the teaching side of it is and still be quite happy to retire as a swimming coach at some point as well. Really? Yeah. That love still go back to that, although in twenty five years or something go back and do that. He’s ever coached by us. He was going round with a with a walking stick. I think he coached until the day that they all over the great fun,

[00:36:11] The essence of it man. I mean the few swimming lessons I’ve had. I was surprised, amazed at the the difference. Keeping your fingers together, you know what I mean? Like the small changes you can make in Sydney and the huge difference that makes. What’s the essence of it? Could you tell? Could you tell? Someone’s going to be amazing when you first start teaching them. Can you turn them into something amazing? How important is. And how important is physiology

[00:36:39] Is that you can definitely you can definitely see talent, you can do anything. This is the same thing that you said about like dentists is all that you’ve seen on the courses and things that you can see the talent, but you’ve got a bunch of sort of junior some, as you can see, which ones are and whether it’s a physical talent. You know, they’re naturally a foot and a half taller than everyone else or hyper mobile, hyper flexible. That was me. I got my knees and got me shoulders. The 30 percent more mobile than they should be helpful. Yeah, you get extra range of movement and things like that. And and so you get you get that side that you can see. It’s still hard work. I still I wasn’t the most talented athlete. I worked really hard. I worked smart. I was talented, more talented than than some, but definitely. And that’s why I never got that that extra I got the top the top 20 or whatever it was, you know, is never going to make the make the team that I had friends and did junior level far more far more talented people.

[00:37:43] How does that how does that feel when you’ve been doing that amount of training and then you realise you’re not going to make it? And I mean, it must be soul destroying in a way, too, right?

[00:37:53] I mean, I, I never I never thought I would, you know, it was never I loved the sport. I loved doing it. I was really happy to get to get to the championships, get to the trial. Then that was that was enough. That was basically I got to that as some of that event. I said, yeah, I’ll do I’m quite happy here because I could carry on for the next two years at uni and not and not get any better and not make that final two percent to do it. And that’s what you do when you say you’re doing something like the fine margins as it was, is it sounds bonkers when I said it’s sort of two percent, three percent. And that’s that’s what it is. You know, if I was ninety eight. Ninety seven percent of the way, that’s all, isn’t it, then it was never I just love the sport and love doing it and it’s that personal thing again. If you can’t use racing against yourself, if you don’t know you’re up against other people, but you can sort of always push yourself internally. And that was the day I stopped when I knew that I’d done everything I could. I’ve given it a given everything. And that’s fine, because I think it’d be worth it if I felt like I’d, you know, not push myself as hard or done something.

[00:39:03] You did your best and you feel good that.

[00:39:04] Yeah, because I knew that I’d reached the absolute limit I could I could reach, which is higher than I ever expected. So, yeah, I know. I’ve no sort of regrets with that.

[00:39:14] At your stage in the game, are you thinking of. You know, I’m not I’m not saying you’re going to open a practise tomorrow, but are you thinking of opening a practise one day? And what do you what do you think

[00:39:25] From that of the. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think initially a while ago I thought about it. And I think it’s more that you think I would be really cool except accepted practise in like high. But for mates that we just have a laugh and and we’ll all do our little things that we enjoy doing. But I think it’d be a long way away. It’d be something would be quite enjoyable. But obviously the the other side of it, there’s a lot of the business side and the obviously the stresses that will go with that and highlights it massively with, you know, with Kobe must be such a tough time for the principles, especially that Woodbridge we made a big expansion and stuff and put two, three, three new surgeries in the year before and things like that. And there must have been very tough on on the bosses and stress that people are seeing all around the country that people are in those kind of concerns. It’s not quite quite like turning up and do my thing and then going to do something else.

[00:40:19] Yeah, it’s a nice time. I remember very well the bit between qualifying and doing something serious, like starting a business is a beautiful thing. And as much as it’s it’s impressive when people qualified, open and practise quickly missing out on that piece, it’s almost it’s almost like that bit. I don’t know, you’re going out with a girl, but you’re not married to her sort of feeling. Well, it’s a lovely time that some people miss out on you. I found in my day, in my time that that was a real defining time for me where you’re still so energetic about your new career and and you’d be amazed that the moves you’re making now, you will end up being really amazing, like building blocks of the final things you become. But when I say starting practise, do you share with me that when I was at your stage, I keep on thinking, wow, you know, I can do so much better than this. By the way, I’m not saying Knicks practise, and that’s a great practise. Right. But as as as a young as a young guy, you know, you have ideas this share some ideas with us.

[00:41:28] But I think I always I always joke with it because because. Because I’m living in. I’m living in and I’m travelling out. All that, you know, they always mention and in sort of huddles means like, oh yeah, let’s hope ambitions at some point to open a second practise and like, you know, Richman’s quite nice and

[00:41:49] I could help you in that one, maybe

[00:41:52] As I always have a bit of a joke with them about that. But at this stage I’m at the moment, I would never dream of running a place. I just think, yeah, I just

[00:42:04] I think I’d be quite good at it, though, dude, because a lot of a lot of things about the teaching thing is about communicating and and in the end, running a practise is all about that and communicating your vision. Yeah. To to others.

[00:42:19] Yeah, I think it would be the kind of thing I’d enjoy doing, but I feel like this at this stage now, you know, it’s I like if I’ve got anything, I can go to any of the other senior guys and get some advice on something I’ll feel if I was the boss, I need to be giving all those answers that I just don’t feel that I have. You know, we’re still while we’re all we’re all learning, always Dental practises and that we’re all still learning in that path. But and I think as well, I’ve got a lot of sort of loyalty to Nick and Sarah because of the way that I’ve ended up there. It’s very much sort of they took a took a chance on me and I’m more than I’m over the moon to be working in a place like that full time at the stage of my career that I am.

[00:43:02] Is that your first first private job? Did did.

[00:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. So I started I started the two months after finishing up on Saturdays because I met Sarah during F day whilst on a course in Birmingham. I won tickets for it. It was in Birmingham. I was in how. We’ve got to take two tickets. You can apply for them as the deanery and I was I’ll go home for the weekend afterwards. I’ll be all right. I won them and then end up chatting to this lady and did. And then a year later I started and some subsidies. And then a year later I started shadowing Nick on a Wednesday morning. And then it just sort of when my mother so it just all sort of fell into place that way. And I just yeah, I’m so happy to be where I am. I don’t think the change

[00:43:51] Of pace from NHS to private. Tell me about how that felt the first day, because that’s a great day, scary day to day lives.

[00:44:00] I mean, the actually doing it switching over full time was that was the bigger change rather than when I started just doing some Sacerdote is sort of like because you try and get in the mode of even when you’re doing your and it just sat there trying to book in more of these sort of private work and things like that. So when I first was just doing the alternating exercise, it didn’t feel like that that big a step when it was suddenly all the time just in private, that definitely felt like a big a big change because it was, um, sort of coming off the the rush of doing like thirty patients and then. Yeah. Going the next day of doing sort of a Sunday. I’m always seeing a 10, 12 patients or whatever it is. And that was where it felt really different. But it’s enjoyable as well because I said you can do the work you want to do. That’s the beauty of what I said is and if I want to do an end, I’ll do it. If not, then the doctors can do it. That’s the the beauty of it. You can just focus on taking time and doing the things that you like

[00:45:05] As far as your reputation builds and your reputation is building quite beautifully in the profession for someone at your stage. But as your reputation builds in the community for being the denture guy. So it’s funny that one thing you’ll find maybe you’ve already found is you’ll get people coming to you with more psychological problem than a clinical patient. Maybe tell me if this has happened to you already where you feel like based on all the parameters that you you’re in control of, everything looks pretty good. You’re getting you’re getting suction everywhere and everything’s really stable. Everything’s great, looks good. And yet the patient’s unhappy. And what tends to happen is it’s the better you get, the more you attract that crowd of people who never you know, the is not in the mouth. It’s it’s it’s different. Have you come across it? It’s you definitely.

[00:46:05] Will I look forward to this? I’m not I can’t I wouldn’t have had anything, anything like that. Yeah. But I think the the psychology of it is for any patient is massive. For any patient. The psychology is really, really important. But it’s all about trying to gauge if you’re going through the process of making a set of Dental five appointments or whatever it is you end up doing. It’s all about sort of drip feeding your thoughts throughout it. So it’s it’s very nice. Yeah. People would say it’s if you tell them at the end it’s a mistake, if you tell them at the start it’s ten seconds or whatever. You know, if you say after the fact then you’re making excuses. So you’ve got to try and break down and work out. But it’s just sometimes with those kind of patients say that it’s a classic like five or the other way. And it’s like the classic one that turns up with six, six punches in a bag. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes actually I think just sit there and just have a chat and work out rather than doing the same thing for the seventh time and just sort of um because you do have it anyway. You sort of, you say, oh it’s just the patient. I just a bit so let’s just get on with it and get them out of the chair.

[00:47:16] And I don’t mean to be dismissive of. Because a lot of Dental patients haven’t been served very well at all. Yeah, and and so I’m not saying that at all, but having hung with neck, my neck doing includes doing you know, he was a very high end dentures, but very high end anything. If you talk to the to the top guys, they’ll tell you this. When you build a reputation, that’s what happens. You tend to attract that patient sometimes. I remember, you know, I told you I had a mentor who was into process. And he said when a patient used to say they’re too tight, you should get angry about that. That used to really get to who he would. He would turn around and he’d say, no problem, I’m going to put them on the Dental stretcher and then we’d walk out together and would have an espresso. We’ve come back and it’s the end of the great, you know,

[00:48:15] The bentgrass technique, putting it just putting it on the side behind and doing something and making it sound like,

[00:48:21] You know about that.

[00:48:24] Is that running the running the straight handpiece behind and just sort of just pretending it is tapping on something else like that, you know, sitting up. The psychology is massive. The psychology is massive.

[00:48:35] Yeah. Are you also involved with the TMJ sort of issues or

[00:48:41] Do the odd. I do the odd splinter, the odd little bit that nothing nothing that much. It’s certainly something I want to look into more

[00:48:48] As an element of crossover,

[00:48:51] Where you can look at it from those occlusal areas and you know, and working into it like that. I think that’s that’s probably the next course. But it is jazzes. Yeah, of course. And then down the road for me and reading so much by that, that that’s that’s the kind of thing there is so many people have, I assume. And it’s something that’s so under so under undertreated. Yeah. I’ve had a couple of ones wrote me these little little chest side sort of kig to sort of see if it works. I’ve done a few of those and I’ve worked really nicely now and I found that really interesting. I thought, wow, this works and there’s got to be more, more to this than I’ll just fall down that rabbit hole as well.

[00:49:35] So and I saw something on your Instagram that was like a windowed Sackets special tray was that

[00:49:45] The fibrous, red, flabby ridges, so that we’ve got the lower, lower teeth usually going up against an upper comp.. Yeah. Turns the insides of a pillar and all that kind of area more fibrous and so on. Yeah. So if you do a uniform impression, you’re going to compress that to make one area more than the other. And then when you put the acrylic in, it’s going to just squeeze into that and then it slips down at the back. You lose the sale and falls out. So you do your window impression, do exactly the same and complete that you’ve you’ve asked for a hole in the tray over the area. So then the material flows through the press they right in and then take it out. You cut out the window, press it back in again, and then just lightly syringe the light body over the top. So then it’s only the weight of the silicon’s pressing there. And then the technician relieves a little bit foil so that actually when they’re fully loading it in, it doesn’t actually touch. It’s almost like the the fibrous issues hanging inside. So then there is uniform support. It doesn’t go anywhere.

[00:50:50] You’ve got you’ve got you’ve got compression everywhere else, but not there.

[00:50:54] Yeah, absolutely. So then when when it is loaded, everything else is compressed and that there is still not being contacted at all

[00:51:01] And then you don’t. Is that is that a similar story for those Tauri.

[00:51:05] Three, if you want to get away from those and then release them? Because they tend to be very painful because they’re so the Geneva so thin over those edges, relieve those and sometimes in the impressionable in the trail, get them to put a little relieving area not necessary. Do it like a window, but just allow the material to flow out a little bit so there’s not as much there.

[00:51:28] It’s amazing coming back to

[00:51:32] Rewind the clock back. Yeah, yeah,

[00:51:33] Yeah it is for me. Yes it is. But it is, it’s, it’s funny man. I think it holds a special place for us all. You know, your education to doesn’t it takes you back to the how was it coming from a small town like Worcester. Worcester was three was the worst I know was the worst. To the big city.

[00:52:02] Yeah, is it I mean, it was it’s everything’s different when you go to it anyway. I mean, I’ve got family in London as well, so we would we would do pretty well. More West at my aunt’s actually up the road in Fulham as well. So I know the side a bit more. But it was it was exciting. It’s always different, isn’t it? I think going to as I said, the big cities is a bit of a change. But I’ve stuck around for another eight years, so there must have been. What do you

[00:52:29] Think’s going to happen? You think you’re going to end up going back eventually to Worcester?

[00:52:34] Yeah, and I don’t think I was working for a little bit in Worcester early last year before I had to said she was able to go in full time and ready, which is the things that it was quite nice was then I was doing even more travelling and I was bouncing, bouncing sort of up and down and staying with family and things like that. So it was quite nice because I tend to I’m one of those people I to go home for like six months at a time. So it’s quite nice to go back, go back to of every week. But I enjoy it, I enjoy it down here. I think I would mind drifting a little bit further out, maybe a little bit less of a commute. But at the moment. Yeah, but it’s a good it’s good that today, as

[00:53:15] You know, I’m kind of new. I’m kind of new in Fulham. I’m kind of new for them. So I’m just finding my way, really. I still I still feel much more at home in North London. My office is there and I was brought up, brought up there. So every time I go back that way, I’m like, this is home. But it is nice. Yeah. I mean, the Champions League was what they call that they.

[00:53:39] Did you hear all that last night. It was pretty is pretty rowdy. Yeah. We were walking back after the game and it was obviously a lot closer to the stadium than you are, but it was round last night.

[00:53:51] I could hear it from here. There you must have heard it all.

[00:53:53] Yeah. Yeah, it was it was great. We had loads of sirens as well, which is.

[00:53:57] Yeah. Yeah I saw that. I saw that. It reminded me of my days in A&E

[00:54:03] And the flashbacks.

[00:54:06] Yeah. Yeah. Because I did this house job that was half restorative half surgery. And I remember in Cardiff. Yeah. When it was a lovely day during the day you have this bittersweet feeling of tonight. It’s going to be tough. Yeah, it’s

[00:54:22] Going to be a go.

[00:54:24] Yeah. And when it was a rugby game would depend on who was playing. But if it was Wales, England, there was going to be trouble that night. And it’s funny because during the day it was a wonderful day and the night would be, you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever done any like man, is it a proper, tough, tough evening, you know, stitching up faces and, you know, undoing the good work of the bouncers. Of course.

[00:54:58] I mean, I haven’t done that side of it. I mean, my my my girlfriend. I’m I’m a flatmate here. They’re both they both on their visas and backpacks and things like that. Yeah. So I’ve heard all the stories. Not for me, not for that.

[00:55:12] So you think that you your girlfriend, you said was doing some teaching in F.T. said. Right.

[00:55:19] Yeah. Teaching is looking do some also. So doing all that side of it.

[00:55:25] Did you guys meet in the Dental school.

[00:55:28] Third year. They’re paired up partners.

[00:55:33] We had the I met my wife in Dental school to actually put the thing I found with you know, some people think having having a person, the partner who’s in the profession is difficult because, you know, you’re constantly talking about that. And I liked it. I liked it a lot. You know, I like it a lot in so much as, you know, you can you can you can talk to someone about it.

[00:55:56] Yeah, they can. And you can share that passion with it as well. It’s sometimes there are times the other other you want to think about it for that. But I think it works, it works well to sort of share that. And they talked about it if you want to. I think it would be tough to have a bad day or something. And not everyone has a profession that is everyone’s bad days in every profession is different as well. So definitely helpful. And she’s also probably the reason why we move not too far, because she’s a north west London Iranian as well. So she really took off is to get it down to Fulham.

[00:56:30] So it’s like, well, all right, buddy. Well, perhaps not here to ask his final questions.

[00:56:41] I was going to avoid them.

[00:56:43] Okay. You are a bit too young. You’re too young. You are a bit too young for it. But I didn’t ask you about your biggest clinical mistakes. Are these people going to have to ask you the. It’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your loved ones around you. One of the three pieces of advice you can leave them with.

[00:57:05] Things I’ve been thinking about this all day, and I still don’t know

[00:57:09] If it’s your final is your final swimming lesson,

[00:57:16] I think I think based on sort of my sort of work pathway so far, I think the first thing. But I take opportunities and take your chances and sort of trust. Trust. Well, it is this is a swimming thing, I would say, without trust the process. And I believe that you’ve got the right idea of what you’re doing and you’re going to do it and you’re doing the right thing and just take chances, take the opportunities that arise because. Yeah, because chances are it’ll work out so. And if it if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. But I think just trust that, you know what you’re doing, you know where you want to go, and that this is going to be the right thing for it. And I guess it’s sort of the same kind of thing, but especially if you’re in this situation that you last. I think I just do things because the things I experience things or whatever it is, because what you I think you’ll regret things. You don’t do so much more than things that you do that take yeah. Take say yes to things. Go and travel and learn, learn new things and learn to meet different people and do things like that. And then I’ll steal it. Paraphrase a Savage Garden song and don’t don’t let the sun set on an argument then get a bit angry because life’s too short. I just get on it and get it done. Well that day.

[00:58:33] That is good advice. Although Prav discussions are three parts, I wonder if you wonder whether his next question is kind of it’s kind of similar, but it’s a legacy question. Rupert Monkhouse was. How would you like to be remembered

[00:58:54] As the guy that my Dental is set to get in there? I think I’d want to be remembered. I’d like to think I’m that person that you could call in data. Dependable. Yeah. Yeah. That if you needed them, that would be. That would be a. And also, my dentist actually

[00:59:17] Gets security as final question, I’ve got a feeling I know where it will be. Got 30 days. Yeah. To do whatever you want to do.

[00:59:30] Hojjati. A lot of them said trouble, yeah, that is the thing is, I mean, it’s difficult for me because my mom hates travelling. She won’t fly. She likes flying. So I wouldn’t get to spend over 30 days away. I’d have to spend some time. Some time here

[00:59:46] Would be put on a train

[00:59:48] Together with me on the other side,

[00:59:51] Hyperloop. By the time it comes to your last 30 days, there will be other relatives. Maybe. Let’s imagine your mom can come a long way.

[01:00:00] But we’ve we’ve been having this thing. We’re trying we’re trying to do the the wonders of the world before we turn 30. And we’re doing all right. I was three. I was three down.

[01:00:08] But what are the wonders of the world?

[01:00:12] Great Wall of China. Oh, Machu Picchu, Colosseum. I see you on one side. And that’s the end in Christ the Redeemer. Yeah, Christ the Redeemer. In Brazil, we forget mortar fire. That was the plan. So I think that they’re pretty cool. Thirty days to get around the world and just go and say, just go and see the awesome things. Because if he is going to China and you go on the Great Wall and you say the pretty clever and some amazing stuff happens and yeah, go there, go and take off the Seven Wonders, do it and one dig around the world. And they’re dragging them kicking and screaming when their guys.

[01:00:54] It’s been lovely having you

[01:00:55] Really enjoyed it. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.

[01:01:00] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders multistorey.

[01:01:10] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because

[01:01:28] I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:01:40] And don’t forget our six star rating.

[00:00:00] I remember my friends kind of going out and some of the getting married and having babies, and I’m still there in the library studying, having my breakfast, lunch and dinner in the library, which wasn’t fun, said it is really intense, especially when you get to the final years. You really got to give it your all. But there is an end point. So I think you got to you got to be ready for it. It’s not for everyone, but it’s something that you’ve thought about and you want to do and you want to do one thing every single day of your life, then it is probably right for you.

[00:00:34] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:00:51] Gives me great pleasure to welcome we know what you from our perio onto the show, Reena’s being burst on the scene in terms of a young specialist really pushing the cause of perio. Everywhere you look, it seems like arena and really nice to see that you’ve just started your referral practise as well. Hi, it’s nice to have you. Usually we start with where were you born? How did you grow up? When was the first time you thought of becoming a dentist?

[00:01:22] Again, thank you so much for having me on the show. It’s my pleasure. Let’s say where do I start? So I was born and brought up in South London, so NICTA couldn’t stay here. And I grew up with me and my family and I have one brother who’s two years older than me. And yeah, I mean, I pretty much to be honest, I lived in that house till I got married. So very sad. I didn’t live out here in university. I literally stayed at home for what must have been like, gosh, over twenty eight to nine years. So see, I grew up in South London, I went to school nearby and then I went to ground school nearby, as well as the girls school, which I really enjoyed. And then yeah, then I pretty much stayed at home. I went to university, started at the London or I did my undergraduate Dental training. And then funnily enough I did my VTE again just down the road like two minutes walk from my house to my own dentist, which is interesting. And then I did my perio training guys. So always been in London, which is being fun, and now I’m living in central London. So still in London,

[00:02:35] Just growing up in that single house, single household during that time and going to uni. What was that like in terms of where you were you coming home, back home every day? Did you stay out with mates? What was what was the whole setup? Because, you know, my experience of uni was was was living away. And my daughter is applying at the moment. Right. And the protective side of us as parents says, go to Manchester and say hello. But the growing up side says, you know, go as far as you can. And she’s going to London.

[00:03:09] Yeah. Know, interestingly enough, I absolutely loved it because my parents let me have my independence. They weren’t the kind of Indian and some I know have something to go reputation of trying to keep you stuck in your house and locked in the house. But my parents really did let me grow up while still living at home. And later on in my university, as my brother then moved out Old Street. So I used to say as flat a lot as well, which was fun. So I think for me it was great because especially during the final years and especially actually when I was doing my perio specialist training, it was really intense. So coming home to a lovely, nice meal that Mummy’s made, it was actually really helpful to get through those years that at the same time they didn’t restrict me. I could meet my friends whenever I wanted to have a social life. So it was a nice balance. I think it’s for me it worked pretty well.

[00:04:02] First of both worlds, I remember I used to come home every eight weeks and it’s a bit full of shopping. And then on the way back, it was it was some home cooked food. So I guess you have the best of both worlds that being able to come home and get some decent growth down you and and have the flexibility as well.

[00:04:20] Yeah, I spoke to someone in New Year. Yeah. And they told me you’d absolutely dominated that. Yeah, I top it everything. Yeah. Were you the kid in school as well, you know.

[00:04:36] Yeah. I was always a bit of a geek. I just really I just really enjoy studying. And I think the way I’ve been grown up is so my dad always saying to me, just give it your hundred percent, whatever you do. So I’m doing something. I just max. And that’s it to the point where, you know, that that’s my key focus. So when I was at university, especially undergraduate years, my key focus and I’ve always wanted to be a Dental since I was like seven or eight and finally got there, I was like, wow, I need to give it my all and I want it to be the best. And I wanted to give it one hundred percent and then whatever happened. So I did the front line during lectures. We used to make fun of me. I wasn’t though as a geek, I was I was still socialised. Everyone had a really nice group of friends, got on well with with the whole year. So it wasn’t as though I was like a just a recluse, like hanging around by myself. It wasn’t like that. But I did. I was very book orientated. I just wanted to to do well. I was the best as I could.

[00:05:36] I think, you know, my dad had that conversation with me too, but it didn’t quite work the same way, so. I mean, is that right now, I mean, are you, like, highly like a perfectionist?

[00:05:51] Yeah, I think I try to be a perfectionist because I’ve learnt that trying to make everything perfect, you sometimes don’t make progress. You just need to be good enough to actually achieve your own thing, trying to do every tiny detail. Sometimes that extra fine detail doesn’t make a difference. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn’t. So I wouldn’t I would say if I call myself a perfectionist, I think I’d I’d still have the drive that I did five, 10 years ago. I think that hasn’t changed. I don’t think that ever will. I think it’s kind of built in me. So, yeah, whatever I do, I’m trying to do the best I possibly can. And if there’s challenges, then I have the kind of grit to kind of get through it, essentially.

[00:06:29] Why did you decide to specialise in an area, what point during your career did you think this is what I really want to do?

[00:06:37] Yeah, I mean, in terms of dentistry, I wouldn’t have wanted to for a long, long time. That dentist I mentioned who was down the road is actually probably out of Vassar. And it was very inspiring who was my own dentist. He took out my premolars for my over and everything else that she really inspired by him. And that’s essentially led to me doing dentistry. So that was always in the specialising actually didn’t come to a lot later. Actually, during my final year of undergraduate, I thought, OK, there’s quite a lot to do here. I wonder if I want to pick some one of these things and do really, really well. And funnily enough, I was dead set on prosthetics. So for my final case, I did it for my three, have one of my tutors filtered a really nice guy who was like, I’m going to get you right into the prostate. And then you’re joining us next year as soon as you can. And I was dead set on it. And then it was only until the final month or two before graduating. I discovered perio as such, because I have to say undergraduate years, Aperio are not the most exciting. And I don’t think it’s when I started, at least it wasn’t very well represented. And then I realised, oh, this sounds quite good. And I think then after that year I started exploring it and I did my essay. Yeah, I did all surgery, I did restorative. So I started to like the surgical aspects of it. So I thought maybe I was a good speciality. Then I shadowed quite a few Purdum’s and I thought, wow, this is actually something I might really enjoy.

[00:08:06] And so thought, yeah, I realised I needed to specialise because I wanted to do one thing just really, really well. But Perio came onto the scene quite later on, actually, when I realised I like the surgical side of things, but also with the impact you can have on private treatment, it’s quite significant. You can literally change someone’s life. You can change the quality of life. You can make people not just look good, but feel good as well. And for me, that is so important. And so, yeah, I looked into that and delved in further and I actually applied for training quite early on. Some people were saying to me, oh, you need more experience. You were only fresh out going straight and you can’t even do a feeling of people saying that. And I was thinking actually works for me. If I’m only going to be doing I don’t want to do. And if I want to do, I don’t want to do a restoration anymore. That’s all I want to do. So I thought actually, let’s jump into it and go for it. And with these decisions as well, you can’t just you’ve got to think about the rest of your life. And for me, I wanted to get married, have a family and all these kind of things. And I wanted to get that studying because I knew how hard it was going to be. I want to get that done beforehand. So it kind of worked out really well.

[00:09:13] Did you consider going on and, you know, becoming a researcher or were you at practise?

[00:09:21] Yeah, it did cross my mind when I did my master’s in specialist training. And you’ll find we usually have to do like a Masters project research project. And it did cross my mind. I did enjoy it. But I think I’ve always had my heart set on practise and applying what you learn practically rather than doing studies. And I do like studies and research, but for me it’s more practical hands on aspect of things. So, yeah, I mean, I’m still in the hospital. I still work one day a week, which is quite nice. So there’s little academic element there and it’s great to interact with other staff in a hospital environment, but I don’t think I could do that more than once a week.

[00:10:01] What does what does the training entail in terms of the specialist training? You qualify and then you graduate as a dentist and then you do the specialist training, I’m assuming full time for over three years.

[00:10:16] Yes, there’s different ways you can go in. And three main schools that offer the specialist training and but Kings’ is the only one when you do it part time. So I did a four year part time training programme. You can do a three full time training programme. And the reason why she was part time was, well, quite honestly, I wouldn’t be able to afford to pay that amount without working. So just to give you it is quite interesting. When people are jumping to specialist training, they forget about all the nitty gritty and one of the biggest things is finance. And when you’re doing specialist training programme, you’re looking at I mean, when I did it probably going up, when I did it, I was paying around eleven, twelve thousand pounds a year. And for me to not then work would be very difficult for me to fill that course. So I did a part time training programme, firstly because I wanted to of the UN so I could pay the course. But also it was quite nice because you can then applying what you’re learning then in practise. So there’s part time and then there’s full time to part time as well is only a king’s. But it also allows you to and it sounds geeky, but you have an extra year, so an extra year of learning. I think we really made a difference. So financially as well. I think you have to think about loss of income.

[00:11:26] So even though I was working part time, the. Working five days a week, so it all adds up. I think I find a lot of young dentists graduating and there’s something in specialist training without considering that decision in detail. And one of the things to think about is finance. But, yeah, you did three years, four years. And then in terms of what it entails, when I did it, I was in the university hospital environment three days a week. And at the same time I was working process to one to two days a week. Plus you gotta do your studying and everything else. It’s intense. It does take a lot of personal sacrifice. I mean, I remember my friends kind of going out and some of the getting married, having babies. And I’m still there in the library studying, having my breakfast, lunch and dinner in the library, which wasn’t fun. So it is really intense, especially when you get to the final years. You really got to give it your all. But there is an end point. So I think you got to be going to be ready for it. It’s not for everyone. But if you are if it’s something that you’ve thought about and you want to do and you want to do one thing every single day of your life, then it is probably right for you

[00:12:28] Just in terms of the intensity of your work in, let’s say, a couple of days a week and then and then we need to do any training as well. Would you then go home and say study in the evening after having works and practise? How are we talking for me? Undergraduate was a lot easier, a lot more difficult than postgrad, just the way things panned out for me. But just talk to me about the hours and the time and the dedication you devote to put in during that four year time period.

[00:12:59] Yeah, I mean, I was waking up at like five, six a.m. The latest on the days I was going to university was great in seeing patients. You don’t really have much free time, so you’re spending your own free time writing up cases, revising, going to the library. Postgraduate education was very much your own initiative. So you’ve be given reading lists rather than undergraduate where you’re given the paper and maybe the paper summarise for yours post graduate. You got to get out there and actually do that reading and research for yourself. So all your spare time is spent on that. If you want to do it well, all your spare time is spent on that. So therefore you’re going to work on the work days of coming home and you’re carrying on with the work. So the days were like literally from five a.m. to probably midnight every day for me. I’m not I’m not I wouldn’t see myself as a vice president, but I work hard. I mean, my brother, for example, he just read something once and it’s one of those annoying people who think they maybe spend with me. I have to spend that time. So it was draining. I think I couldn’t have done it. If I had to do one more year of that, I think I would have broken. But it is just about enough to get me through. To be honest

[00:14:12] With the Reverend, low points during that time where you’d been through Dental school, you’ve got your degree in there. And then during that four year period where, you know, five till midnight most days, there are very low points where you sort of thought to yourself, you know, this is too much mature.

[00:14:28] I actually was okay. I think the secret was having supportive people around me. So I had a good buddy on the course and that we revised together. We support each other and the home. I had my family network and my friends and I had my to be husband. So I think having my mentors, I had a really good support system. I think without that I hundred percent would struggle. So and that support system, like, for example, my like we were supposed to get married and we had to postpone the whole thing because of this, because of how intense it was. Actually, I was like, if we’re getting married now, we’re going to get divorced six months later. So let’s hold on. Let him understand that you’re going through this. You need to support people understanding the situation. How many hours you’re putting in and putting it into perspective really helps. I think I was OK. I think it’s very easy to go now and worry and break during that process. But I think having a good supportive network really helped me, which goes for anything. I think even now and going forward, you always need people around you to support you. I think it’s so important and surround yourself with the right people, I think has surrounded by very positive people. People in my year with very positive, they weren’t saying, oh, my God, how are we going to get through this? They were very much like, let’s do this. So it’s great.

[00:15:44] Is it also quite difficult to get in? I mean, how many applicants per play, so how does that work?

[00:15:50] It is competitive. I think it’s getting more and more competitive. I think they have a good few hundred applicants and each year, on average, about six people. So. So it really is quite competitive. So there’s a written application. You can have your interviews and you’ve really got to show you, show them why you are interested in power and what’s the evidence for that? What have you done to show that you’re interested in the speciality? What can you bring to the speciality as well? So it is competitive. It’s not impossible that something someone wants to do it, go for it and find out. We don’t just just find out what they’re looking for and build yourself up to that. I think.

[00:16:26] So give was a sense once you did your dissertation, I guess it some sort of five or something, and then they said, all right, you’ve passed. And, you know, whether whether we call that like, you know, just pure for that feeling that we all get when you pass that exam. Yeah. And then you’re the most junior periodontist in the country. What’s the journey? What were you aware of? What has to happen next for you? Were you that person who’d already started thinking about where you were going to go next and what did you do next?

[00:17:00] If, funnily enough, I was that young, I was the youngest this when I qualified. So it was it was scary. I think the thing is, all you think about usually is getting through the course and not the day after is a bit like Dental. So you just wanting to graduate and then like, oh, hold on a minute, where am I? This is the real world. One of my my mentors, he kind of helped me and guided me through that process to the point where actually during my final months at my specialist training programme, I had already developed an index which was basically hiring a room and setting up my own clinic, basically to the point where I was literally on my final month. I was starting to see patients in my clinic, which was pretty scary, but really fun. And then I started to feel like, wow, I’m actually so yeah, that was how I started

[00:17:47] With the referrals coming from I mean, had you already started going to work?

[00:17:51] And what happened was when I was 20, when I graduated from dental school, I set up before the days, but blogging was actually a thing. I set up a website, which was my name, Dotcom, and I used to love going to still developing Dental lectures, courses, all these kind of things I used to really enjoy summarising.

[00:18:12] I remember the really good.

[00:18:14] He has

[00:18:15] Notes

[00:18:16] That say, yeah, so I used to summarise these things into just I find that and those around me, we just wanted simple summaries of things. So I used to post them about any of them. So that’s why I created the website. And from there I used to post videos, links to all sorts of things, and I started to build a network of people interested in my stuff. And then actually what happened was when I graduated, they also were following my journey and said, oh, your parents, now can we refer to you? So naturally, I really created a small referral network who have you send patients to me. So it kind of worked out really well. And thereafter I did some outreach and I went to visit people and I started building relationships with people. And the key thing for me was when someone sent me a patient, I wanted to just make sure that patient was one hundred percent happy or thousand percent happy with the care that they would go back to the Dental and say, wow, I thought she was really good. So the referral actually then sends more patients. So and from there it grew. I mean, I started one day a week carving out this room on Wimpole Street and then through the year, often to a full time connect the office even busier.

[00:19:21] So I’ve only ever referred to one periodontist in my life, Strand, because I was only a dentist for like a five year period and then another four year period. It just the way it worked out for me. But the question of value add, I mean, you said you kind of talked about it a little bit, saying you want the patient to be happy. Yeah, of course. Put the value add from the referrers perspective of who’s a good periodontist to refer to and who’s not such a great one. I remember with Pete, one thing he used to do was he used to say to me, look, what’s the full treatment plan? And then kind of reinforce the full treatment plan with the patient. I would come back now fully sold, and that was worth, you know, everything that that was definitely worth passing the patient to. So is that is there an element of that

[00:20:09] One hundred percent? I mean, that’s one of the biggest things. I think I always get to know my referrers. What kind of treatment are they doing? Are they doing Invisalign? Are they doing bonding? What do they want to do then do on that patient? Because normally patients I mean, perio is just part of the plan and it’s easy to get them out healthy enough so they can then have more aesthetic work. So I, I do exactly the same things. I then reinforce it’s the patient, then they go away and it’s actually you know what, I, I’m going to go for this. So I think that’s a key element. I think the other thing is communication. A lot of my referrers said to me, I used to refer to someone I just don’t know what’s going on with the patient. Have they been booked in? What’s happening with the treatment plan? What’s going on? So I’m trying to be quite hot and communication, like when the patients referred or we receive the referral. We left the referral when I booked in, we let the referral report the day that the patient is seen by the NDA. So I’ve tried to remedy everything. Everyone wants instant now. And I feel that even with patient reports, the patient wants that report by the end of the day. So we try and really work towards that. And that seems to have results. I also think for me as well as the final thing, I guess it’s worked really well, is actually going out there and visiting your areas and getting to know them in person, because I think now it’s so easy just to. Frowns on social media and just think a message here will never actually make an effort to go and see that person and get to know them and perhaps organise a lunchtime, things like that, I think providing value is really important.

[00:21:40] And what about the kind of work itself? I mean, is there a type of periodontist that you are? So the kind of work the dog and for instance, are you the type of president who moved into employment placement or not?

[00:21:51] No, I’m not a tool. Actually, I made a decision early on to literally just do perio. I did enjoy influence and we did get trained on it, guys, and it was great, but I just didn’t feel like I was so tired on this. Just of course, you do other things as well. But for me, I just wanted to hone down on Perry, i.e. non-surgical treatment, surgery, knee surgery, get out of that crowd, lengthening all of that, treating recession, military lung surgery. So I decided that was enough for me to be there without the implants.

[00:22:26] So recession due to you finding you’re doing a lot more of that kind of work now?

[00:22:31] Yeah, for sure. I think with Invisalign

[00:22:33] Cosmetic, Berríos

[00:22:35] Cosmetic, I think even Signe’s realise that the guns are also important in aesthetics. It’s like if you have a beautiful photograph and you have an ugly frame, it’s not going to look the best. So people are realising the importance of it. Also has a lot of Invisalign going on, a lot of recession happening as a result of that, which sometimes can’t be helped. But that may be true or to a recession. If you’re doing a small maker of that type of patient who really looks in detail, it can make a big difference with with a small surgery for recessions in. That also means that quite a few young patients in the last few months, especially following the lockdown, I think people may be staring at the house longer, but a lot of young patients coming in saying, I am going to be small, how can I correct this? So that’s becoming those two big things. Thinning and recession becoming quite a major part of my day, really.

[00:23:26] What’s the what’s the treatment for recession? So every time I go to my hygienist, she makes me jump through the chair because I’ve got a recession. Right. And so they’re really sensitive when she cleans them at the bottom and she said, I’ll just brush too hard. And so what treatment do you get for that? And is the treatment purely cosmetic or does it provide a functional benefit as well? Where is it can help with the sensitivity?

[00:23:49] Yeah, the sensitivity was an interesting one. Say that the actual surgery we do this, lots of different types of surgery and different purposes do different things differently. I’m quite a fan of the Kellie’s approach. I do a lot of current splats and with connective tissue grafts and yes, it’s expensive. But in a lot of cases, as you said, it’s functional as well because your thickening the gum tissue. So you’re improving the quality of gum tissue, making it less likely to recede again in the future, make it easy for the patient to clean that area more comfortable and clean that area. So you didn’t always have to do surgery, though. I mean, a lot of times I would monitor it as well. But you’re actively monitoring all you’re measuring it. And in a year’s time, if it hasn’t progressed in an area where the patient’s not bothered aesthetically, then fine, you can say, well, it’s it’s not like you just jump in and do surgery for every single patient. I think you have to do it case by case. But sensitivity, sometimes the results, et cetera, sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes you to do that in other ways as well.

[00:24:45] You know, let’s talk about Cornick periodontitis. Has that moved at all since I qualified 25 years ago as far as the treatment and management of chronic peritonitis?

[00:24:58] Yeah, so now

[00:25:02] You go with what’s happening in that area. It happened to the actual tree is.

[00:25:10] Yeah. And obviously the new classification was staging and grading things, which is made is not really changed the way we treat them as such. But it’s made it more objective in terms of analysing that patient and making a treatment plan. Things have become a little more conservative before, I guess years ago, used to scrape away this momentum and be really aggressive. And now it’s all about the biofilm. And according to the new treatment guidelines, we’re using this new term called Papau, which is professional mechanical removal. So you do either suit projectable with subject. So there’s a big focus on that. There’s also obviously a big push on prevention or hygiene patients taking responsibility for their own health, I think in the past is that a dentist does everything. But now I would say to my patients, it’s 80 percent of what you do at home. So, yes, we are going to spend two hours talking about maybe not two hours, but we’re going to spend a long time talking about your home care at the clinic as well. We also look at risk factors is a big thing now. So we spend time on smoking cessation. We spend time on diet, advice to stress. Stress is huge. So you’re looking at your patient holistically now, more so than we did in the past, which is great. I think it makes it makes a big difference.

[00:26:23] But there’s been no advancement, no breakthrough.

[00:26:27] There’s been advancement in the way we treat the eye, the equipment we use, the technology we use. But the principals themselves, yes, I agree. They’re largely largely the same. But for example, because of the techniques we’re using for the advanced equipment we’re using, we’re doing less surgery. So now it’s more conservative. So I have to say about ninety five percent of the cases that I treat for periodontitis can be treated non-surgical. If it’s done well, I don’t how ever have any reduction surgery. So we have to reduce the amount of surgery we do

[00:27:01] To work on implants as well. Can I do people send you preemployment

[00:27:06] When they do, they do some test cases. I say not the most enjoyable to treat as we know the standard surgical treatment. And what you end up doing is just slowing down the progression of that condition. So never make any kind of vague promises to your patients on that one. But yet again, it’s another time bomb that’s going off. So I’m seeing it all the time

[00:27:27] In terms of your business and it just us through the process of it, it seems like you qualified as a as a periodontist and then you went straight into business. It wasn’t always in your sort of tea leaves, so to speak. The I was going to be a business woman or did it just come and then and then it just evolved from there.

[00:27:49] Yeah. So I thought process cause I could work for four or five practises running around every single day in different places. I mean, I was talking to my friends and specialists of years ahead of me and some of them were like on a two week timetable that they were in like and they were literally travelling miles and miles across the UK. And I just thought to myself, I didn’t want to do this. I don’t want to be knackered every single day. I’d rather have my own pace, do things my own. And that’s the other thing they were trying to is different equipment, different sets of different teams, all very sick. And continuity of care for the patients was was tricky. So I said to myself, right, what are the other options? And the other most obvious option was to do things myself. But I just thought, gosh, that’s scary. Where am I going to get Reffo? So because they’re all going to be if I was so I was in kind of fifty fifty whether I do this or not. And then I just thought, well that’s scary. What’s a risk. And what if it doesn’t work then fine, I’ll go and work for the classes. So I just decide to take risk. Minimal sort of risk. I was just paying rent for one room once a week initially and then it worked for United, so I just built from there. So I’ve always I’ve always wanted to do things my own way, very independent. And I think I’m not sure I would have been happy working in tandem process that they would have really stressed out about it.

[00:29:12] The business side of Dental difficulty to just come to you naturally. Did you did you make a lot of mistakes along the way? I mean, you’ve accelerated from hiring a room one day a week to having an entire floor on how history, which is no small undertaking and then making that place look fantastic. I’ve seen bits of progress on social media, but just take us through the journey of making the journey of business from going in one room a week, one room, one day a week through to having the whole floor on Holly Street. I’m assuming that’s open. How many days a week?

[00:29:44] Six days a week.

[00:29:45] Six days a week. Wow.

[00:29:47] So it’s been a bit of a journey last few years, I have to say. One of my mentors names, I’ve he is a business consultant. He’s a dentist, the dentist for like 20 years and then went into business. He has literally guided me through the whole way to having a mentor and a thing without a mentor could have done it because I guess a mentor is someone who shows you the way they’ve already gone that way and they already know what roads to the west time right and left and what obstacles to avoid. So I think having a mentor is absolutely critical when you’re doing projects like this, anything really. So that really helped guide me in terms of what the next steps were. And that was a key, I guess, every single point. I was like, OK, what’s the next step? This is working. What’s the next step? So I wasn’t like, oh yeah, in three years time I want to be in history. I did have that dream, but I didn’t. That’s not what I was focussing on. I was focussing on, OK, I’m busy one day a week now and it’s good to two days. I’m busy two days. Let’s maybe bring in a geneste and now I’m busy.

[00:30:43] Three days. Let’s hire place for five days and bring three more hygienic. So it was a step by step process and I think making sure each step was working seamlessly before moving to the next was really important. I think as well, establishing the business and the brand and having values is really helped. So obviously now we have a team of people say 13 people in our team for ideas. So it was quite a big team. And for me, obviously, when it was just me, it was very easy to maintain my brand and values. And what I decide to do from the very early onset was create three key values that I wanted any team member to have before they join when they join the team. And I think that really helped me select the right people. And I think it’s always about a team approach. And without having the right people on board, I don’t think I would have gotten this quickly. So it was both obviously personal efforts guiding and environmental, but also having the right people around you and in your team to support that. And and obviously, the key thing was making sure that the Refah was pretty happy with everything and going to

[00:31:44] Share your team your values than what others?

[00:31:47] Yeah, my team values. The first one is excellent. So whatever we do, we just need to do it perfectly to the highest standard. The other one is enthusiastic. So with me, like it’s not just a job. I mean, the way I see it is you’re doing this for the next hopefully forty years of your life for most of your day. Like, I don’t want you to come to work and just be like, oh, this is just a job. I want people to come in and be like, I really enjoy what I’m doing. Obviously everyone has their off days, but looking forward to coming into work and being enthusiastic because your patients can see that and it rubs off. Right now, my patients and I love coming in to see us because we’re enthusiastic. They’re enthusiastic. So I think enthusiasm was a very important value. And then the third one we have, which is probably not the most glamorous one, is reliable for me. Having, for example, someone who calls in sick the day before, it doesn’t work. Like unless you’re bedridden, you can’t move none of our staff. I don’t think I’ve ever called in sick. So for me, being reliable, if you say you’re going to do something, you do it. That’s that value is actually really important to me.

[00:32:52] You know, some some some people who really excel in school and university have that sort of institutionalised sort of thing about them, but it seems like with you, you’re managing the world of work really well, too. Would you say that? You know, I’d say that different skills, you know, passing exams and running businesses, totally different skills. But you look at them in the same way. I mean, did you sit and read business books before you started setting this up or what did you do? How did you prepare for all this?

[00:33:25] Yeah, I think it’s a completely different skill. And I personally think this should be taught at Dental schools. I just don’t know why. I mean, I hope it changes in the next few years. But the skill of running a business, understanding figures, understanding revenue, that kind of stuff is so important it should be taught to everyone. So, yeah, I had to learn it. I think I read books again. My mentors, business consultants, they went through all the metrics and all the things you need to know which you on tools Dental school and then you learn as you go along. So you see what works, what doesn’t work, and you change things. And I think everyone involved not mistakes, but you come across things that didn’t really work around. Let me try this. So it’s a skill that you have to learn, I don’t think. Well, I definitely had tools and I guess some people in involved with that sort of business ethos. But I definitely wasn’t. I was very academic. So it was a completely different ballgame. But, yeah, it was fun learning about it. And I think then combining both skills worked really well.

[00:34:24] What are the best and worst things about running a business? So sometimes there’s things that you do in your business that you just do because you have to do, but you just don’t enjoy it. And there’s some things that you do in your business where you’re in your zone of genius. And if you were doing that 100 percent of the time, life would be great.

[00:34:43] So I guess the best thing about running your own business is literally the fact that you can do every single thing your own way, using whatever equipment you want, spending however long you want with whomever you want, because you get to choose your team. And that makes all the difference in an environment you want to as well. So especially with the new clinic, it’s really made a difference to how much I always really enjoy everything, but it just magnified how much I enjoy going to work. So I think the best part is the thing is also working in a team is really fun. I don’t see my team members as I’m the boss or the we we will collaborate with each other. So we all bring different strengths and we try and support each other and build each other up. So that’s kind of the best thing about having your own business. And I guess you’re in control of things. You’re in control of the future of your business and who you bring on to the team and things, treatments you might want to offer. There’s a lot of your own challenge, I guess, with all those kind of things. I guess the negatives are you just can’t switch off.

[00:35:41] It’s yeah, you you never know. I don’t really quit working for me. What if it’s like play to me? I just enjoy it anyway. But you don’t switch off from your business. For example, you get an email, something happens and sometimes they’re very minor things, but you have to deal with them because it’s your business. So the way I’ve kind of tackled that before I in the first year was I got quite a trying to zone out work and play and I tried to say I’ve done for the day and then I get like patient emails or this and that, and I get really stressed out. Then I realised quite quickly on, if you want to do this, you just have to take a lifestyle approach. So and that’s how I work. That is more of a lifestyle I didn’t see as work and play. It’s just a lifestyle. So that’s the thing. You can’t switch off no matter how much you think you can, you just can’t do it. If it’s a bad thing, it’s just something you got to be aware of. So I guess that’s that’s the hardest bit for sure.

[00:36:33] And so how how different is life now? We were talking about study studying for your you specialise in wake up at five a.m. go to bed at midnight. Does the business of dentistry live with you during those hours as well? The first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, check Ivone, C, C, C, what you’ve got on or whatever and so on and so forth. How how is it now that you’ve moved from study into having your own business and the integration of the business into your life?

[00:37:04] Yeah, I think it’s quite different now. I think in terms of hours of the day, I still wake up very early. I still probably wake up at five, five thirty every day, wake up quite so. I do some meditation in the morning, so I actually don’t check my phone till I start having breakfast because I don’t think your first hour of your day is that’s when you have your best ideas. That’s when you want to be fully focussed. I don’t into my phone. I don’t get emails. The way I see emails, emails is just like a to do list, like someone’s telling you. What do you want to just unclassy zone that out for a later time in the day. So, yeah, the first I think the hours are the same, but my day is far better balanced. So I have time in the morning where I don’t work and then I, I walk to work. So I have twenty minutes where I listen to a podcast or listen to some music depending what mood I’m in and just think about my day ahead, then I’ll get into work. That’s when I kind of perou mode on and then I look at my day. I have to say through the move obviously I’ve been building a new clinic. It’s been so my hours have been longer, but on an average day when we start work at around eight thirty six, six thirty seven, sometimes it is a long day.

[00:38:15] But you know, make sure I have a lunch break. It’s a quite nice pace today. And then when I get home I do try and, you know, Dental stuff which I think is quite important. Some days I’ll have like podcasts or webinars or things on, but I’m not doing that every single night. And I think on the weekend I definitely try and do some non not switch off, but just do some non Dental stuff, other things that re energised me essentially. And also I’m not working. I’m not in the clinic. I don’t see patients every single day. So I’m working three and a half days in clinic and then I have a day of admin which is quite nice and doing non stuff as well. So I try to balance my week, not just my day as well. And what I’ve now said stuff is so strange, but on my calendar, on my Ikal, I have a zone, my, my actual calendar. So I have anything that’s work related and red, anything which is fun and what is fun. But everything is non Dental it is having blue every. So I try and make sure I’ve got my balance right, which really helps me actually. So I’m just too much red in the dark blue suit. Yeah. That of system seems to work for you.

[00:39:23] You know, we we ask everyone about clinical errors. I don’t know if you listen to this bit of the podcast before, but, you know, from from the from that sort of black box thinking idea of generally we tend to hide our errors and then no one learns from them. Can you share some mistakes that you’ve learnt from politically? And then we’ll talk about business wise, too.

[00:39:49] Yeah. Mistakes quickly. I guess when I was starting off with more complex surgery, as with anything, there’s a learning curve. And it wasn’t so much the actual clinical work. I think it was more as a way of saying dentistry, the communication side to, for example, wasn’t emphasising certain post op like you’re going to get a swelling, you might get bruising. I was just very much about that, whereas now I know exactly what’s going to happen and I’m very much in communication with my patient about that, which makes me, the patient, feel more comfortable that the side it’s the same then we’re aware of it. So I think it’s not really I would say it’s mistakes. It’s just I’ve developed as with anything in dentistry, you know what to say and what works. And what you should be saying is, I think is more the communication side. That’s it’s really improved other than clinical work. You just get better than we do. So it is easy and to shy away from with complex any Dental complex procedures and then not wanting to do it. But I’ve really pushed myself because to be fair, even during my specialist training, I didn’t do that much complexity because I’ve reached it. So like with Dental, the real learning started when I was actually seeing my patients and it was scary because I was in probably three dozen highstreet area. Seeing these quite demanding patients doing quite complex surgeries. I could have easily said, you know what, I don’t want to do this. This is definitely a composite. But I did push myself and I got better with time. So, yeah, I think it’s just learning from the communication side more than anything.

[00:41:21] But you not do not recall a case where it was rather than communication. It was something you took on that shouldn’t have taken on or something that you did that you wouldn’t do again or.

[00:41:32] Oh, I guess I, I don’t know, I guess now for me, it’s more patient selection, like you see those red flag patients where you’re like actually it’s probably better I do less on this patient than more. So I can remember actually a specific patient where we did quite a big treatment plan. And I just thought and it kind of total kind of she’s very, very picky about every single thing. But it turned into quite a sonogram to say it was all fine in the end. But it’s like I’d rather have taken that step by step with that patient to firstly suss out the patient, see what they’re about before offering a treatment plan. So I think, yeah, I think selection is so important in everything we do and understanding patients and what they’re like as a person is is super important to us.

[00:42:17] We also Obama that same question and he said sometimes one thing he’s learnt, he said something about patients. Patients can turn on you. Yes. Even ones that you think you really, really get on with can can turn on you in the wrong situation. And it’s difficult as a as someone who gets referred things. Sometimes you get patients. I speak to a lot of real highfliers. Sometimes you get patients coming to you saying you’re the answer to all my problems. Yeah, I’m sure in your world sometimes as a patient who’s not doing your hygiene bit right and then puts that blame on you, does that happen?

[00:42:58] Yeah, I think I completely agree with the patient. The patient that you’re with, your favourite patient just turns on you that that happens a lot. During my first year when I graduated, I saw that. And from then on, I just treat every single patient as though they all going turn on in a negative way. You just got to be ready for it. So but yeah, I think oral hygiene wise, it’s difficult because sometimes it can be patients can take it quite they can be quite patronising. 10 people ask questions. We’ve come up with a way in a clinic where it’s actually completely change the way we approach it to make them actually understand that we want to help you because we want to get the results for you mainly and we want the results to last. So this is why we’re doing it. And actually cleaning your teeth is quite complex and no one’s ever shown you. So we’ve come up with a way of communicating with patients that we are very strict. So the thing is, the home care isn’t very good. They did progressive having three actual non-surgical treatments that you have to be strict every single point. Otherwise, yes, you can blame it on you because you’re going to do some treatment and it’s not going to work and it’s going to be your fault. So you have to be quite strict.

[00:44:07] And some of the aspects of direct patient marketing in your practise does not exist or of word of mouth patient patient 100 percent.

[00:44:21] Yeah, because especially with a cohort who were in their 50s, 60s, I mean, Perilla is very common. The likelihood of their husband or one having perio is huge, that we often get to come in and have the treatment. Watching my husband he’s getting with. So yeah, there’s this huge market of what amount and then all the people who want to maintain their health to the focus of the clinic is not just trying to treat disease. Our aim is also to maintain health, which I think is just as important. So we also get a lot of direct patients calling in, especially younger individuals, 20, 30 year olds looking and saying, you know what, I just want to make sure my thumbs are OK. Let’s make sure that that’s OK. And I want to have Advanced Hygiene Assessment and clean, basically, which is great. I think when I was 18, 19, I don’t remember think my friends without worrying about their or health plans. Now, it’s like 16 year olds coming in wanting me to check them, which is amazing to have read it.

[00:45:31] Tell us about the teaching side of your your career. So the lecturing then? I’m not sure when Perio School came along, but your online courses are not this. Just tell us a little bit more about how you got into teaching. First of all, maybe the first time you stood up in front of a crowd, were you nervous? What was that like?

[00:45:50] Yeah, teaching. So I’ve always wanted to be a dentist, but my close second was being a teacher. I remember being like five year olds, like five year olds, kind of teaching my brother on my little blackboard. Like teaching was a very close second. So I always had it in the back of my mind. And I didn’t think I could combine both careers. But when I graduated from dental school, one of my friends actually said to me, Why don’t you? Because I used to kind of organised group sessions for my friends. Things like why don’t you organise a talk for like people who have just graduated, I’ve just graduated, how can I give a lecture? And, you know, you just share what you’ve learnt so far. It’s even just a year or two below. You might it might be something that. So I do remember my first Nacho’s tips for young dentists, I think it was, and there were about 10 people in this tiny little room that we organised, I was really nervous. I thought basically I was just worried that no one would find it interesting and helpful. And that was my main worry. So after that talk, so much positive feedback. Actually, this is more so it’s useful for people and maybe I should continue to do this. And so I then I decided to kind of keep organising talks and then did a professional teaching qualification as well. And I used to teach it to be fair, actually, when I was sort of in my teens, I did used to teach during my as part of a temple Monday, we had like music classes or to teach musical instruments to teach in classical singing, but it’s always like a bit of a teacher.

[00:47:21] But I had some skills, but I never thought I was any good. But then as a sustained positive feedback during the Dental sort of stuff, I decided to kind of take it further. Then it came from lectures to sort of courses, which was my first courses. Again, really bored people and find it interesting. But I think when you get positive feedback and you see people enjoy it and learn from it, you just want to do it again and again. And that’s when, I guess more recently we started the online teaching as well. So during the lockdown, it was really sad because so many courses booked up and cancelled like everyone else had cancelled all of them during class lockdown. But how can I just get the information out there to people? What can we do? And I just had an idea, why don’t we set up all the courses by an online format? So basically and the first two weeks of lockdown, I literally spent my whole day writing out my courses, scripts of pictures, etc. and then the week after I spent a week or two just recording them, it was so intense. And then again, I thought, God knows and finds interesting.

[00:48:23] He wants to stare at my face on video for like hours on end and listen to someone not there in person. But I just thought, you know what? Let me just get another list of people who had already booked on the courses. And it was amazing. Like people were really excited about learning right now and online. It seems to be the way forward. People who do it in their own time in the evening between patients. I see Perry School really has been something I did not expect to have left off, and it really has. And the most exciting thing was like doing things online. You accessing the global markets so always happy. Australia joined and India. And I was like, oh my God, I would never knowingly be able to travel to these countries and share information and knowledge and learning. But now I can. So we’re actually relaunching the website, just working on at the moment. We don’t in a couple of weeks with tons of content and courses. So that that’s a I’m really, really excited about that. It’s so nice that I’ve been able to combine both my passions. I feel really privileged to be able to do both you and teaching. So and it’s a big part of the new clinics. So we’ve got a lecture room. We’ll be running the courses in-house analysis. Yeah, it’s something I want to pursue further as I progress

[00:49:34] With the online side of things. I know I work very closely with the Academy on the online courses that he’s created, and then we pivoted to do it almost like a hybrid online course, which was they had to watch the online course first. We send them out a hands on kit. And so they do so with the zoom interaction from the feedback on that has been absolutely amazing in terms of the some people who would prefer to do it that way, then actually come to a venue or whatever and do it in person free or post covid. Right. So we’ve we’ve changed the whole structure of how the teaching at the academy is going to take place. And introducing more of this hybrid stuff is that is anything like if you’re going to be changing the way you structure your teaching in that form in any way because of the lockdown?

[00:50:26] Yeah, I mean, lockdown is literally code. The pandemic has changed everything. I think everyone is so much more responsive on education. People who used to laugh at me for using Zoubi now, like addicted to Zougam. It’s really interesting. Even people who aren’t that tech savvy are now like on Zulu’s. But it’s great. I mean, it’s opened up. So I don’t think this would have happened without pandemic’s. So I think it’s opened up a lot of a lot of opportunities. And I agree there’s a space for integrating both things. I do still think there is one hundred percent and need to have in-person courses that actual interaction with people in discussion is important, but a huge component can be delivered online. And as you said, I think the hybrid of having Zoome having you online and then having people on Zoome completely. I mean, that’s that’s that’s that’s fantastic idea. So, yeah, I think but I just think it’s just so beneficial because you’re able to reach for many more people, people who might not necessarily travel to your courses can now access it. So it’s just improving the education that we can deliver.

[00:51:30] It’s one thing that you wish. Dentist knew about Perrier, but they don’t.

[00:51:36] I think. One thing, I mean, quite a few things I would just

[00:51:44] You, if you

[00:51:46] Like, if it’s done well, you can do it well. It honestly can change someone’s life. I’m not joking. I have patients come back and they come back and they say to me, I just feel so much better. I have more energy. I just still be a different person. And it’s because of the amount of information they’ve gotten that can make an impact. So I’ve had patients come back and say my diabetes is now fully stable. Thank you so much. I mean, how satisfying is that? So I think don’t underestimate the value that you can provide with good care. Of course, you composites can be far more glamorous, but also they’re not really going to work unless your panels will help this pristine like we’ve all seen the cases on on Instagram where I mean, I just stare at the gums that you see some gums which are inflamed, never looks good. And sometimes it’s a nice pink and the whole case comes together so nicely. So we just wouldn’t underestimate the power of having it basically.

[00:52:43] So I think the systemic link is something really as a profession, we need to push more. I mean, I think there was even some chatter about the chances of having serious covid disease. Yes, but the Hotlinks been there for a long time and I feel like we don’t really talk about it now.

[00:53:04] I know it’s I find it really surprising. I think there is a big push on it now, but it’s such a hot topic. I mean, links between perio and diabetes, cardiovascular disease, but also the emerging ones like Alzheimer’s. There’s also babies busy with everything. And I remember when the Alzheimer’s one came out, I was in the BBC and all of the news I had patients actually Bookchin say I’m worried about getting Alzheimer’s. Can you check my gums? So patients are really hot on it. So I think we as a profession also need to be concerned. I mean, we should be saying to our patient, every patient that comes in. By the way, Mr. Smith, did you know that if we don’t get your gums under control, it may affect your general general health or by the way, we treat your gum disease? Did you know it might have a positive impact on your or your overall health? So patients might not be motivated about Perry, but they definitely might be motivated about their general health, and that’s one way to motivate them. So I think we do need to talk about it more. Sometimes it comes as a surprise that the mouth with the rest of the body, but it shouldn’t be because it’s all connected. So I think that that definitely should be more conversation with our patients, because you’ll find when you do talk to them about it, No. One, they’re interested in it and they take their health more seriously. The way I see things as well is it’s more multidisciplinary care. So working with, like diabetes specialists, working with other health care professionals. So we’re treating our patients holistically, not just about the gums and just about the teeth. It’s you. There are patients. At the end of the day, they’re a person. So treat, treat the whole thing.

[00:54:32] You know, the one thing that gets missed and it might be I’m looking at it from my my little lens is that, you know, white teeth. Yeah. As a profession, we push gums quite a lot compared to white teeth. And talking to hygiene is, you know, the whole question of behaviour change. Yeah. You know, patients who brush really will brush pretty well, a lot of them to keep their teeth white. And so I know our job is to re-educate, but there’s some scope for that. You know, we need we need to look at the psychology of a patient just as much as everything else. Go ahead, Prav. You look like

[00:55:09] You. Just something you said. This just resonated with me and I I’ve occasionally known to use widely praised and the you know, and Payman. Thank you. Thank you. I just need to send him a text message saying stick some Jarrod’s in the post May and they arrive the next day. But the one thing about my cleaning habits is that when my teeth are whiter, I give them more attention. And actually I’ve never thought about that until you’ve just mentioned it right now, that then I’ll pull out my little incidental brushes and the floss and give them extra care, because I’ve never I’ve never crossed my mind. But I do know is that around that time I’ve been wearing those hazmat my the way I’m giving my teeth a lot more. Look, you see that in clinic at all, or is that not part of what you’d observe and your typical practise?

[00:56:09] I completely agree. I think there’s a just a positive psychology of it, I think. And that’s similar to someone who’s got their start, even with their initial session with our hygiene is when they start noticing a difference, they get even more motivated and then they get even more motivated when they start to see their gums tighten up there. Oh, now I can see this is not hurting as much. So I think your patients have to see a change. They can’t you know, they’ve got to know what to look out for. So when your gums one of the biggest problems. In Paris, when you’re treating this condition, they’re going to get recession, when they see that, they’re going to think, oh my God, my mouth looks worse and my teeth are more sensitive. So then they’re not going to want to see you ever again. So I think the key thing is saying some what your gums are tightening up to health. It gums are just so swollen right now. So if you do notice them coming down, that’s a really good thing. So watch out for that. So it’s I mean, what ethos has always been positive? So not trying to tell the patient if you want to actually, you know what you’re doing really well.

[00:57:08] Now we’re going to issue intensive brushes. If you notice your gums get tighter, then that’s a good thing if they’re more sensitive. Yes. Well, actually, it’s probably a good thing. Don’t worry, we can deal with that. But if you notice that, it means you may be improving. So I think definitely we have to there’s a psychology of them nursing change. If they look better and they feel better as well, they’re more likely to comply. So it’s all kind of a three sixty one feeds the other. And that’s why in Auckland we are actually starting enlightened, exciting, actually, for the reason that also they get something that they’re looking forward to something. So at the end of all this gum treatment, yeah, you’re going to be able to have some whitening because now you can make it look nice as well. So there has to be an element of aesthetics, and that’s one element of feeling good and looking good and all. But it all works together. I think it’s got to work together.

[00:57:59] You know, you touched upon the mouth is connected to everything else, and gum disease can downstream impacts absolutely everything. And obviously the converse is true if we just look at systemic inflammation as an example and all the things that can impact that from sleep to what you eat, to exercise to even supplementation of various vitamins and minerals and whatnot. And what part of your role do you fulfil in giving advice to patients on things like that in and around the community? I know you touched upon it earlier. You were talking about how stress can impact things and whatnot. And so do you find your role as more of a holistic practitioner as well, or do you stick primarily to what’s going on in the mouth?

[00:58:51] Yeah, I think the thing is you have to be realistic to treat someone successfully, you have to look at everything. I’m not saying you become like a specialist in nutrition or specialist stress psychologists or whatever, but you do have to touch on it and give them the advice whether they have to then seek medical help or see someone else. I think it’s you do need to treat people. Has to. So, yes, in the clinic, whether it’s me, whether it’s the hygiene, we’re all touching base on the whole, the patient as a whole. To be fair, the way I see things going, which is happening to us already is almost working in a centre where you have, for example, a nutritionist working that you have a diabetes specialist and you all kind of working together. That’s where I see things going in the future. So be interesting to see what happens with that. But yeah, you can’t with perio especially, you can’t just look at the gums in the pockets and the bleeding. You’ve got to look at risk factors is a major part of what we do

[00:59:50] Is any test for susceptibility that works.

[00:59:54] Um, there’s no one test that you can do. Do you mean genetic susceptibility or just to

[01:00:00] Go to the environment? I mean, is there something some some saliva test or plaque test or something?

[01:00:06] Yeah, not at the moment that you can use routinely in practise that would work. So it’s more about a conversation about risk factors like diabetes, for example. How well controlled is your diabetes, which to be able to see? That type of marker is quite good. Things may change like you may get inflammatory markers or whatever. You take some from the from the pocket and look at that. But right now, it’s it’s not very practical thing that you can do on a daily basis. But the other thing I mean is genetics. Some people are genetically more susceptible. And I think there’s a huge I say to my patients, there’s a huge unfair element to this. And quite honestly, when I when I speak to the patient, they’re actually more accepting of their condition and they’re more likely to then say, OK, I want to do something about it, rather than the practitioner who says you want to brush your teeth. It’s all your fault. That kind of I mean, to me, I would just be like, OK, this doesn’t make me feel very nice. I don’t I don’t want to I don’t want to know about this. And I just switch off with, say, someone will. Miss Smith, part of the reason why you’ve got perio is genetics that we can’t control. But there is an unfair element. They might be actually, it’s not my fault. But, you know, I’m going to try and do something about it. So genetics is one we can’t control, but it should be a part of the conversation. And that doesn’t just apply to certain patients. Like half the reason why people have perio is genetic. So and then there’s risk factors. So don’t kind of push that to the side of things in a conversation to have with all patients

[01:01:31] In the different facets of your work. So you’ve got running the business, treating a patient clinically, having that patient interaction and changing the life and then teaching, you know, helping other dentists improve their skills, become better off doing what they do and what you prefer doing.

[01:01:50] I see I see a bit of content creation there as well. And you do enjoy the.

[01:01:55] Yeah, I think I actually enjoy everything in combination. Like, I couldn’t just teach all week. I couldn’t just see patients all week. I think having that balance to be one when I was studying, when one of my teachers actually said to me, it’s always worth having a balance, bit of the little practise, bit of teaching. But if, as you said, content creation, digital, the that works really well. And I think I’ve kind of figured out what works for me in terms of the number of days, how I want to do things. So I do have a large component not seeing patients, but I’ve got kind of half of that with teaching and half of it with other stuff. So I think I don’t think I can pick one thing. I think I’d have to do everything together to enjoy it the best.

[01:02:37] So you came out with this tongue scraper thing? Yeah. So it’s about that journey.

[01:02:43] Yeah. And so I always wanted my own product, but I realised quite quickly on I couldn’t compete with the big or the Colgate companies on toothbrushes and toothpaste. And one thing that I found enlightening was bad breath caused by a tongue coating and the two biggest causes of bad breath. One is gum disease, one is tomcatting. And the total sweep is that we’re out there would just like like the plastic ones. Firstly, I wanted to get away from plastic. I just didn’t feel they were very effective. So then I thought one in my country. But so that was really fun. So I designed it, that kind of stuff, packaged it. And again, it was just something that I was originally just going to give to my own patients. And then it ended up being quite popular. So we sell online to maybe resell at some point as well. So that was pretty fun. And I’d say pretty much all our patients buy one when they see the hygiene. So we got fancy with it. We had it ability to engrave people’s names on it, things like that, which is we get some interesting stuff on that. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s been more of a fun project to be the. And having your own product is quite nice that you can then give to your patients and you think, wow, my dentist actually made their own product. It’s quite nice.

[01:04:00] I’ve always thought this should be like incidental brushing machine. That’s better than you always thought. I always thought you could have something you could stick in between everyone’s teeth. They an impression and then the angles are all correct and then you make something for them to get you in.

[01:04:21] Most of the time, I think it would be tricky, but you never know.

[01:04:28] So really, twenty thousand plus followers on Instagram told us about that journey, how you got there and what that is like as a influence on your life. How often do you check your phone? How often do you have to create content for that? Do you have to keep the story wheel spinning every day just to talk to us about social media?

[01:04:50] Yeah, I mean, social media for me. I don’t quite quickly after I started my blog page, because then I wanted platforms to share everything. When I first off, it was all about Facebook. Right. And now it’s all about Instagram and all the other platforms. I have some tech talks on my thing. The Instagram is kind of where things are happening right now. So that’s that’s where I’ve picked as my main platform. I think social media is a great way of spreading messages and sharing things, perhaps in a more informal way. So I set up my own personal Instagram account, which I call it personal. But the thing is, it’s it’s you can’t think that it’s on your personal page. It is kind still has to be professional in anything you do online. But Mirena on your page rather than my OTTAVI Paragould page, I set up first. And with social media, I think it is pretty much another job, to be honest. And if you want to do it and wants it, well, you’ve got to give it time. You’ve got to be prepared to engage with people. You’ve got to be prepared for conflict. You’ve got to be prepared to whatever you put out there that everyone is seeing is essentially a amplification tool. So whatever you put out that it’s going to be magnified. Everyone’s going to see it. And even if you delete things, that’s always going to be that really. So I really enjoy it. I think it’s very valuable. I think you get to reach out to people and share things that you might know.

[01:06:08] And for me, my personal one is more just sharing my journey, inspiring people, whereas my older people, one is more carrier based and sharing cases and what’s possible and patient testimonials. But it takes time and it takes time, as in not just the bills, but on a daily basis. So yes, I have at times during the day when I go on social media, for me at the beginning I was literally on my phone the whole time, like when I first started the whole social media thing. And it’s so easy to get caught up in that bubble of just being on your phone the whole time. And I realise it can get quite stressful as long as you’re constantly reading comments and having to reply to that. If you read a comment, you just feel like the urge to reply straight away. So then I decided on social media twice a day. So usually at lunch time, then at some point in the evening, and I try not to do it in the morning and instead of just try to preserve that time for the most important things. But I do limit myself and I think with social media now and a lot of young dentists’, I run a course for young Dental School F. Q And one of the things we teach is about social media. And if you’re going to create an account, you’ve got to know why you doing it. What are you trying to are you trying to, for example, for professional reasons for your patients? Are you trying to impress your peers? Are you trying to inspire others that you need to know what you were doing before you set it up? Well, one of the biggest things that I would say is, do you have the time for and do you have the content like content creation is you’ve got to have enough content as well.

[01:07:35] You don’t want to be posting once a month. You want to be posting quite regularly. So have you got that content ready as well? So it’s a whole other world and it’s very, very, very easy to compare yourself against other people as well. So I get a lot of message messages from younger Dental saying I want to set up a page, but I don’t think I’m good enough. And I see all these amazing cases, which, of course are everyone’s best cases on Instagram. And I feel it unfair. And I do feel like a post up. I hate literally all the time, but I think it’s very important not to negatively compare yourself with others on social media. You should just use it as inspiration. And what can you learn from them? Because it’s so easy to feel insufficient when you see some other people’s stuff online. So I think it’s such a simple message that people who are graduating students, they need to know that that it’s use as inspiration. Don’t compare yourself. Otherwise you can feel quite insecure about self.

[01:08:32] Do manage this all yourself. Really. You have got someone doing it for you or you post everything yourself.

[01:08:39] Yeah, I mean, on my personal projects, everything myself, on my practise page, I do have someone helping me for them in my clinic, but pretty much it’s me on my own page. I think it has to be. You’ve got to be. In an authentic and organic, no one can write a post for you and post pictures of you because people can see through that quite quickly. So if you want to grow and grow organically to the strengths, you’ve got to do so. Yeah, I mean, there are tools out there to help you that you have social media calendars where you can put things in advance to save you time. I’m just I don’t use that. But there are things if you are super busy and you’d rather get a whole bulk of posts out there for the week, do you not think it’s going to be you? It’s going to be authentic.

[01:09:23] Have you dabbled in paid marketing as well? I mean, you’ve got the horses, the tongue scraper, all that. Have you have you done some ads?

[01:09:28] I’ve done, yeah. I’ve done my courses on Perry School. I used Facebook and it works pretty well. I mean, what it does, it allows you to reach people who might not know about your calls. So I would I’m all for Facebook as it’s the only one I’ve tried, but I think there’s a lot of things out there, so it just allows you to record it.

[01:09:46] So, yeah, I think the Facebook has worked really well when especially with something remote like the like the online courses targeting dentists in other countries and stuff like that. Yeah.

[01:09:59] What do you do outside of work for you know, if you had half a day to yourself, what would you do.

[01:10:07] Yes, do I live next to Hyde Park, so I always I’m pretty much always there in my free time, I really enjoy going on walks into podcasts, although I don’t have a dog, I don’t love my husband. Let me have dog things compared to myself. So no dogs for now. But some my friends, if they look after themselves and look after random dogs, which is fun. I love cooking pretty much and veggie pretty much vegan. So being in deserts are a fun thing for me to do and I love reading as well. So and of course when we can meet up with friends is always a good time. I try to surround myself with people who are positive and a lot of my friends and non Dental actually they’re very successful in their own fields and I find that inspiring. So I like surprising with Dental people as well. I can.

[01:10:59] Really, the veggie vegan thing, is that a sort of sustainability, religious animal cruelty? What what’s what’s the what’s the motivation behind that?

[01:11:11] Yes, I’ve been veggie all my life, actually vegetarian all my life. So both religions I’m Hindu, I’m sonar. And so also very straight on ethics and things like that. It’s also something I’ve grown up with. Also, obviously, the animal cruelty side and the whole thing, really. But the initial reason was, was religion. But yeah, it’s great. Now, I remember like 10 years ago, there were no options for vegetarians because the thing is, like tons of stuff, which is which is nice, I think when before was quite difficult,

[01:11:42] Like it was I grew up I was born a vegetarian, if that’s the thing. Right. And I think I think the first twenty five, twenty two, twenty three years of my life I was a vegetarian and then I started lifting weights and my friends said to me, look, if you want to put some muscle on, you’ve got to eat chicken. So as I turned it over to the dark side and then actually more recently, my daughter came home one day and said, Dad, I want to be a vegetarian. And I said, Which one of your mates is a vegetarian? And she said, no, this is why I gave me a whole bunch of reasons. And she flipped us all the whole family vegetarian.

[01:12:23] Oh, my God, it’s amazing.

[01:12:25] It was pretty amazing. We tried to gone for a while and as much as as much as I’d love to. I can’t give up.

[01:12:34] So that’s the kind of eagerness she is is like kind of. Yeah.

[01:12:40] I mean, as you may you may have heard this question before, but, you know, we like to end this podcast just on legacy values and things like that so much. It was your your last night on the planet. And you had you know, you were surrounded by your loved ones and you have to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What would those special.

[01:13:13] Three pieces of wisdom,

[01:13:16] Life advice, whatever, whatever you want to call.

[01:13:19] Yeah, I guess the first one would be have the courage, I guess, to live a life true to yourself. So I think often we live a life with trying to please someone else and other people’s expectations. But I think it’s so important that you read actually people’s you read all these things online, actually people’s regrets. And sometimes it’s just that they regret living their lives and pleasing others when it’s actually you want to be true to yourself. So I think the first thing is follow your heart, follow your intuition. They know what you want to be at the end of the day. You want to enjoy what you do in your life. As I said, you’re going to be doing it for most of the day, for most of your life. So don’t worry about anyone else. If you don’t enjoy something, there’s no point doing it, like find something you enjoy and make that your career and make that your your life. So I think sometimes it’s great to get advice from people, but if it’s not true to what you believe in, then it’s probably not the right thing to do. I guess my second one would be from kind of the last few years, I guess. Is that your comfort zone? Like, normally what you fear the most is what you need to do the most. So especially when I was doing the new kind of field, I was like, oh my God, what am I doing? This is a massive risk.

[01:14:37] I’m totally out of my comfort zone. I can easily just carry on where I am uncomfortable, but I realise I’m not going to grow unless I push myself. Same thing with surgical procedures, same thing with anything we do. If it doesn’t Scanadu, it’s probably not that important. So you’ve got to push yourself because once you prove yourself, it feels really good. You’re like, OK, I’m here now. Then you look for your next challenge. I think going out your comfort zone should be ingrained in us to be able to grow in life. I guess what else? One of the I guess is not really. My mantra is one of putting my faith. A guru always says in the joy of others lies your own. And for me that I always trust the back of my mind. So supporting others, like making sure other people around you are happy, is important sometimes you know and well, our life is short. We need to support each other sometimes the negativity out there. But I think we’ve got to try and build each other up and surround ourselves with people who are positive. And I think that will be my third one is in the joy of others lives around, both full of professionals, of all patients, I guess. Like one more excuse.

[01:15:45] Well, am I not going to give us

[01:15:49] Any other advice? But one thing I would say from from the way I’ve sort of gone, I’m still very early in my career, but sometimes it does make sense, like whilst you’re doing it. But then when you look back, the dots do connect. So sometimes it’s like, oh, oh, are you sure this is the right thing? And how is it going to kind of pan itself out if it feels right, if you enjoy it and all the other things said, it may not make sense of the time, but you realise what happened in ways that everything happens for a reason, even if it’s a negative thing. I’m not actually be a negative thing when you look back in 10 years, time to think that bonus also.

[01:16:27] Also when when you’re in it, when you’re in it, you don’t realise how significant the thing you’re doing is. Yeah. And it’s only years later sometimes and Prav, I’m sure you’re the same. You look back and you remember all that stuff I did at that point really was significant. But when you’re in it, it’s harder to sort of see the wood for the trees. Is it very lovely, lovely things you said, but your number one and number three, you of opposition with each other, which I really like

[01:16:53] Dental then

[01:16:55] Of course,

[01:17:00] And you’ll see how would you like to be remembered? Sorina was. Don’t Dental,

[01:17:09] I guess I want to be inspirational, I guess, for the dentists, for them to push the limits and not let age or anything else define you and just go for it no matter what people say. And I guess I wouldn’t want to be known for making a difference in the world, ultimately improving the health of the nation, if I can, but ultimately making it more competitive. I think it would be nice to be a wonderful, beautiful.

[01:17:36] And if you had. Thirty days. Left with your health advocate intact and you can do anything you wanted for those 30 days, what would you do?

[01:17:51] Oh, I think I spent days with my family. A family is everything to me, so I think I spend them with my family probably on a nice tropical island somewhere on a beach. Having a great time without being my ideal first is

[01:18:08] Really, really, really. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. It’s been truly so impressive.

[01:18:16] Thank you for having me.

[01:18:19] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders Dental Street.

[01:18:30] Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:18:35] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it

[01:18:49] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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