Month: February 2024

Speaker1: Mindset and mindset shift, which is a huge part of self leadership. You’ve [00:00:05] got to be able to understand that, because a lot of what the habits that are already set in us is [00:00:10] from experience and from previous beliefs, right? And the good thing [00:00:15] is the brain is mouldable and that there are strategies on how you can change [00:00:20] that mindset and make that shift. But look, I mean payment, you have [00:00:25] to realise that you want the change first, right? You have to realise, [00:00:30] you know, where is it you want to go, what kind of life do you really want to live? [00:00:35] Right? And once you have that set in stone, then you’re ready [00:00:40] to then use all the strategies from self leadership, create that mindset change. [00:00:45] And then it’s all about intentionality, accountability, responsibility [00:00:50] and then moving on from there.

Speaker2: This [00:00:55] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:00] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:05] Your hosts Payman [00:01:10] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to [00:01:15] welcome Doctor Sarika Shah onto the podcast. Sarika is the principal at [00:01:20] platinum Dental care, which is one of the most beautiful practices I’ve ever been to. [00:01:25] But not not only from the way it looks, but from the way it runs. A happy team, [00:01:30] lots of patients. Very, very impressive place in the Docklands. [00:01:35] Sarika is also now on a journey of self-development. [00:01:40] And looking at your poster, you guys, I see they’re becoming more and more inspirational [00:01:45] as as we go, and I’m really keen to get into that story as well. Welcome to the podcast. [00:01:50]

Speaker1: Thank you so much and it’s such a pleasure to be here today. So thank you for having me. [00:01:55]

Speaker4: Welcome to Rekha. And certainly from my point of view, I guess because my head’s in that [00:02:00] space, right? And it goes in and out of that space. Right. This personal development, self-help, wanting [00:02:05] to be the best version of you. And then, you know, whenever I come across [00:02:10] your stories or your posts and things like that, you’re definitely putting out there [00:02:15] a lot of positivity. But before we get into that, I want to [00:02:20] take us right back to the beginning. Your childhood, your upbringing, where you were born, [00:02:25] what that was like parents strict, not non strict. We were [00:02:30] really, really studious person to take us. Take us back to your upbringing. Give us your earliest [00:02:35] memories of what childhood was like.

Speaker1: Brilliant. Well, I [00:02:40] was very privileged to have grown up in Kenya with a very [00:02:45] stable family background, and it was just such a wonderful [00:02:50] place to grow up, you know, great weather, a lot of outdoors and a close knit [00:02:55] family. And I would also say that I think I’m very grateful [00:03:00] for the privileged upbringing that I’ve had as well. I have a lot of happy [00:03:05] childhood memories from my education, from my school days, as well [00:03:10] as being at home. And in terms of my upbringing, I’d say that [00:03:15] my parents weren’t very strict. I mean, they created boundaries [00:03:20] at home, and they ensured that we grew up with really good values [00:03:25] and that, you know, especially valuing our education. I think that was [00:03:30] really important to them because they worked so hard to be able to give us our education. [00:03:35] And I remember my dad saying to me that, you know, out of everything in this world, [00:03:40] the one thing I can give you is your education. So [00:03:45] had a fantastic childhood until the age of 16 when I finished my GCSEs, [00:03:50] and then I moved to the UK and I spent my last two years of [00:03:55] sixth form in a boarding school in Kent, which was [00:04:00] very interesting because it was so different. I was completely ripped away from [00:04:05] my comfort zone, and I was suddenly forced to be in an environment [00:04:10] where I had to grow up really quickly. This was a country that I [00:04:15] never. I’d been to England once in my life before, so it was in a country that I’d lived in [00:04:20] before. The weather was so different and I was almost forced to [00:04:25] make new friendships, new relationships. And I’d probably say [00:04:30] that that was the first time I remember being or starting [00:04:35] my self-development journey. And that was from the age of 16, because I was put [00:04:40] in this position where I had to really learn and grow up [00:04:45] at such a fast pace and become independent.

Speaker4: Any siblings? Sarika, did [00:04:50] you did you come with brother or sister or anything like that? Were you only child? What was the.

Speaker1: Yeah [00:04:55] so.

Speaker4: Situation. I have a younger brother.

Speaker1: There’s about a five and a half years difference [00:05:00] between us. Um, but when I moved to the UK, I was I was on my own. I [00:05:05] didn’t have a lot of close family in London, so it was. It was completely starting [00:05:10] from scratch for me. It was a new phase of my life and one that I am so [00:05:15] appreciative of because I feel that that was when I started [00:05:20] really learning who I was and, you know, understanding [00:05:25] a sense of self. And I think it really began if I reflect, that’s how it began that early on for me. [00:05:30]

Speaker4: And and can you remember the time that your parents said, [00:05:35] we’re going to send you to the UK? Like, like, how did that come about? And [00:05:40] what was your what was going through your mind at the time or, or was it always going [00:05:45] to happen anyway?

Speaker1: Yeah. You know, I think my parents are quite intuitive in that sense because [00:05:50] they saw that, almost saw that I wanted and needed more [00:05:55] from what my education and what my environment was giving me then. And [00:06:00] my uncle had been to the school many, many years ago. Uh, and my mum said [00:06:05] to me, I remember her having a conversation. She said. Well, you know, this is an option for you. And at [00:06:10] that time, I was actually instead of A levels that my school was providing, I was actually looking at [00:06:15] doing the International Baccalaureate. And, and I remember my mom saying to me that, you [00:06:20] know, this could be fantastic and would you be up for this? And I just thought, [00:06:25] so scary, but yet so exciting. And I will never forget that [00:06:30] emotion and the feeling that I had sitting at that dining table is such a distinct memory in my life [00:06:35] and thinking that, wow, like what a huge opportunity this could, [00:06:40] this could be so incredible for me. I’m so I’m so [00:06:45] happy that I made that choice. And I’m so I’m so over the moon at that time. I think looking [00:06:50] back, I’m so happy that my parents supported me through that as well, you know, and [00:06:55] sent me and allowed me to go through this next phase of my life at that point.

Speaker3: Circa [00:07:00] as a as a person of your stature, let’s say, in Kenya, [00:07:05] if, let’s say in that sliding doors moment, you hadn’t decided to go, have [00:07:10] you reflected on where you would be now and who you would be? And.

Speaker1: Uh, [00:07:15] I feel that. I feel that whatever has [00:07:20] happened in terms of my life journey and who I am would [00:07:25] still have happened, but maybe not have happened as quickly, because I think [00:07:30] that by going abroad at such a young age, when I was 16 [00:07:35] and really coming out of my comfort zone, everything I had known wasn’t [00:07:40] had disappeared. And and like I said, it made [00:07:45] me grow up really quickly. But I think that, you know, I’ve always been someone that [00:07:50] is a little bit spiritual that wants to learn and grow and had [00:07:55] ambition and wanted to just take on all these challenges. [00:08:00] I think that’s within me, you know? So I think that if [00:08:05] the situation had been the other way around and I’d stayed in Kenya, my life would have been different [00:08:10] and I think I would have just been on this path. But a little bit later.

Speaker3: Do [00:08:15] you remember dentistry coming into the equation? At what age that was?

Speaker1: Absolutely. [00:08:20] So do you know that, um, dentistry [00:08:25] for me was probably one of the first autonomous [00:08:30] decisions that I made in my life, and I’ve never regretted [00:08:35] it when I was in boarding school. You know, all my family, they’ve all [00:08:40] got a business background. So it was almost like. It was almost like it was [00:08:45] expected of me to go in that direction. And then I realised when I was, [00:08:50] you know, when I was choosing my subjects and when I was sitting my exams, that I started to understand [00:08:55] and reflect on what I was good at and what I wasn’t good at. And I remember [00:09:00] having a conversation with my teachers and my parents. Remember, this was this was like 25 years [00:09:05] ago, right? There was, um, there was no WhatsApp. There was this calling scratch card [00:09:10] in, in the telephone booth. Um, and, you know, my parents weren’t there, [00:09:15] so I wasn’t really influenced in that sense directly, you know, by [00:09:20] by them and what they thought about career choices at the time. So [00:09:25] at this time I thought, well, great, I’ve got the opportunity to choose exactly what [00:09:30] I wanted to do. And it suddenly transitioned from moving from [00:09:35] like, almost like a business management, that type of degree to then me having a conversation. [00:09:40] Well, I’m really good at science and I’m a trained Indian classical dancer. I [00:09:45] was a really good artist and I thought, well, I’ve got the dexterity skills, so what could I [00:09:50] what could I do that where I could use my skills? And [00:09:55] really kind of, you know, move in that direction where [00:10:00] I could really, you know, use them to kind of be the best person [00:10:05] or have the best career and be happy and fulfilled.

Speaker1: So I was almost thinking like this, [00:10:10] um, around that time and, you know, it transitioned from, I don’t want to do [00:10:15] medicine to, you know, what about optometry or pharmacy as as typical Asian parents [00:10:20] might think at the time. And then, um, and then I said, well, do you know what? Well, [00:10:25] what about dentistry? And I knew of two girls that I knew from, from Kenya who were in [00:10:30] their fourth year of dentistry. And I thought, well, that would be a fantastic career. And I [00:10:35] looked into it a little bit more work shadowed at the dentists on the high street. And I remember, [00:10:40] you know, going to my parents well, right. I’ve decided I want to do dentistry. And I remember [00:10:45] that they said, well, it’s really difficult. Do you think you’re going to be able to do it? [00:10:50] It’s a really it’s a really hard degree, like almost like they didn’t believe that I [00:10:55] was smart enough, um, to do dentistry, but I stuck by it. [00:11:00] I changed my Ucas form right at, you know, at the last minute. And [00:11:05] I’m really proud. I’ve never regretted it in my life. And I’m really proud because I’m so passionate about [00:11:10] dentistry.

Speaker3: What did you change it from? What were you doing just before dentistry?

Speaker1: It was like [00:11:15] a business.

Speaker3: Things.

Speaker1: Business studies and business management, that type of degree. And then you know [00:11:20] that that initial phase of of choosing. But there was so much confusion and I’m glad [00:11:25] that I self reflected, understood what my strengths were, and then [00:11:30] made a decision based on that.

Speaker3: And then you studied in Manchester?

Speaker1: I did, [00:11:35] I went to the University of Manchester. And which was [00:11:40] absolutely brilliant. And it’s such a great mix of a city and a campus university [00:11:45] and made some fantastic friends. And we were such a small cohort. And I think [00:11:50] that that made a huge difference, um, where being a small cohort, each [00:11:55] of us had the opportunity to shine in our own way. And that was fantastic [00:12:00] for confidence building. But not only that, we had a lot of attention, you know, [00:12:05] from our tutors, it was also a problem based learning at the time. I remember that it was a new [00:12:10] system that they had introduced. Um, and I’d obviously come from the International Baccalaureate, [00:12:15] um, sixth form. So I was used to kind of going and a lot [00:12:20] of self-study and understanding, well, this is a problem and how do we solve it? And I thought [00:12:25] that it’s just a nice way to transition from International Baccalaureate to problem [00:12:30] based learning was the system I understood. But again, looking back like what fantastic [00:12:35] life skills that gives you as well that this is a problem, let’s analyse it. And now [00:12:40] let’s treatment plan or let’s just plan what the outcome has to be, or strategize [00:12:45] how we need to go from here. So not only did that really help when I, [00:12:50] um, started working as a dentist, but it also helped in life in general.

Speaker3: What [00:12:55] were you like in Manchester?

Speaker1: Oh, you’re gonna have to. I can’t give you all my secrets. [00:13:00] Um. Come on. But, um, you know, the two [00:13:05] years of independence from being at boarding school, I. I had the confidence, um, [00:13:10] I came in, and I was just ready to live life. I think I’m a [00:13:15] work hard, party hard girl, and I don’t think that’s ever died. I think that’s still there. That’s [00:13:20] the way you have to live life, you know? Um, make every moment count. [00:13:25] Uh, so, um, loved my social life at Manchester. Um, loved [00:13:30] to go out. But at the same time, I really, really enjoyed my [00:13:35] course. I enjoyed all the biological aspects of all of it, that biology side [00:13:40] and the first two years. And then I was so excited to get into the clinical years as well. So [00:13:45] it was almost like.

Speaker3: It’s not a common story. Uh, it’s [00:13:50] like it’s a lot of people are overwhelmed by the course.

Speaker1: Do you know what? [00:13:55]

Speaker3: Do you not feel that? Um.

Speaker1: I wouldn’t say overwhelmed because I think that, [00:14:00] you know, I’d been in a really competitive school, you know, until GCSEs. Then [00:14:05] I went into another competitive school on, on my own. So I guess in that sense, I wasn’t [00:14:10] overwhelmed. You know, I’d left home already. I’d already started to experience that. So [00:14:15] for me, it was. Yes, it’s another challenge. Um, bring it on. And yes, [00:14:20] you know what? Plus plus that Kenyan upbringing.

Speaker3: Right. That Kenyan upbringing [00:14:25] is like gold. I mean, when I think about the number of people who’ve sat here in front of us, I mean, [00:14:30] Prav your family as well, right? But from East Africa. Yeah. Drew [00:14:35] Vishal Shah, my favourite, my favourite episode of them all, by the way. So many, so [00:14:40] many people. That Kenyan upbringing is different. It’s something about that Kenyan upbringing can do part [00:14:45] of it and the community part of it.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think community [00:14:50] friends, the environment that you’re growing up in is, I think very [00:14:55] different. And I think environment is not people that always impact you. It’s also the environment [00:15:00] as well. And I think that moulds you, that moulds your mindset and the experiences that you have moulds your mindset. [00:15:05]

Speaker4: Sarika, I’m curious about um, so you just spoke about like you go from [00:15:10] boarding school to uni and now you can let your hair down, right? And let’s call it freedom. [00:15:15] Let’s, let’s call the word freedom. Right. But you went from Kenya to Kent and from [00:15:20] Kenya to Kent. They must have been a degree of right I can let loose now. Right. [00:15:25] Because I’m not under my parents watch or whatever, or it’s different. Or [00:15:30] the other thing is that, you know, I don’t know what your life was like in Kenya, but I’m guessing because [00:15:35] your family could afford to send you to Kent, that you had a pretty good life in Kenya, right? That [00:15:40] everything was taken care of, things were done for you, etc., etc. then you moved to [00:15:45] Kent and now it’s, hey, I’ve got to fend for myself, right? I’ve got to grow up. And when [00:15:50] you said that, that sort of reminded me of me going to uni for the first time and having to do [00:15:55] my own thing, right. So you grew up a lot quicker than I did exactly [00:16:00] at the point in your life, if that makes sense, because we’re forced to do that, right? [00:16:05] Yeah. But then there was another level of growing up when you went to went to what was just just talk me [00:16:10] through, like what was going through your mind then at that point when you moved from Kenya [00:16:15] to Kent, maybe the difference in culture or whatever and the growing up you did, [00:16:20] but then what was holding you back in Kent that allowed you to let loose in Manchester? What [00:16:25] what what.

Speaker3: Being a teenager?

Speaker1: Well, this is it, right? I think that growing up in [00:16:30] Kenya, um, it was a privilege. Also a sheltered upbringing. [00:16:35] Right. And I think, again, being in a boarding school. Environment. You’re still [00:16:40] sheltered, right? Um, but really, when you go to university, [00:16:45] you’re truly independent. You’re truly independent. There are certain expectations. [00:16:50] They definitely were for me because I was an international student in terms of education [00:16:55] and grades. But at the same time, it was the time where I started [00:17:00] to think, well, this is my life now. I get to make the decisions. [00:17:05] I get to choose, uh, and I can, I will, I can, [00:17:10] I’ll probably make mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. And I also had some [00:17:15] wonderful times and incredible memories. And I feel that what [00:17:20] happens is that from the age of from the time you’re born until you’re 20 and [00:17:25] is the time when you don’t, you know, you don’t have that. You’re not born with a sense of self that normally [00:17:30] starts from the age of 0 to 3, and then until the age of 20 is when people. [00:17:35] So the people closest to you can influence and [00:17:40] impact the way you are and the way you think and the decisions you make from [00:17:45] the age of 20 onwards is when you start [00:17:50] to take control of your life, or can decide if you want to start taking control of your, you know you’re [00:17:55] under, you’re less under the influence of other people. And that’s when you start to [00:18:00] truly become independent. That’s when you start to take more responsibilities. [00:18:05] That’s when you have to start taking accountability for your actions. And [00:18:10] that’s when you know you really have the power of choice. It’s in your hands [00:18:15] on how you dictate your life and where you want to go from there.

Speaker3: Take us through the professional journey [00:18:20] after that. So you qualified. Where did you work first and then when did you get [00:18:25] into the idea of, you know, private dentistry okay. Quality.

Speaker1: So what a story here, [00:18:30] right. So I was an international student and that meant that [00:18:35] I really, really had to fight for a job. And at this time I didn’t want to go back to Kenya. [00:18:40] I wanted to stay in the UK and get my experience. So I don’t know if you remember Payman, [00:18:45] but at the time it was all it was about job shops, right? The country was was all split up into [00:18:50] deaneries and and every deanery had a job shop. So all the trainers would come [00:18:55] to this job shop and it was an opportunity for you to meet them. They might do a little mini interview at the [00:19:00] time, and I think I applied to every single deanery. And [00:19:05] I remember like printing all these CVS and cover letters, um, [00:19:10] for, oh my gosh, I think I applied to over 100, 120 jobs [00:19:15] at the time. And this is two months before my final exams. Right? And I remember [00:19:20] gallivanting around the country trying to go for interviews, and it was really [00:19:25] it was so chaotic. It was it was the first time I think I really felt stressed because, [00:19:30] you know, passing your exams is one thing. Uh, it’s kind of in my control. [00:19:35] But getting a job was partially in my control. And, and at the time, I think it’s a lot [00:19:40] fairer. I think the system now is, is a lot fairer. But at the time, you know, trainers, they [00:19:45] kind of already knew in their mind who they wanted, but they almost had to like interview people [00:19:50] just to show they were interviewing people.

Speaker1: Um, I remember going for, you know, travelling [00:19:55] from Manchester all the way down to the, to the, to the south coast. And it took me eight [00:20:00] hours. Um, and it cost, it cost me money. I only had a budget like a strict budget [00:20:05] then spent. So it cost me money going all the way down there. But wow, what a life lesson. [00:20:10] And I basically just ended up in East Anglia. Um, I was at the job [00:20:15] shop then, uh, tired because I was wearing like five inch heels, [00:20:20] which I was known for at the time, and I just took a rest and I thought, okay, I’m just going to go [00:20:25] to the bar and have a drink. And there was a man there having a beer, and we just [00:20:30] started talking and he said, well, yeah, I’m actually, um, a partner of a practice, [00:20:35] um, in Norwich, and I’m looking for a VC. [00:20:40] And we ended up just chatting, connecting, and he invited me to come and have a look at [00:20:45] the practice a few days later. And that was it. We signed, uh, the what was it, the [00:20:50] letter of intent at the time in a pub. And that’s how it happened. That’s how I [00:20:55] got my job.

Speaker3: Why was it more difficult for a foreign student [00:21:00] to get a job? Was it just a I mean, yeah, you feel like [00:21:05] that people thought that you can’t do the communication piece as well?

Speaker1: No. Um, [00:21:10] at the time, the rule was that the priority has to go to, uh, UK [00:21:15] born citizen.

Speaker3: Right? Oh I see, yes yes yes yes yes.

Speaker1: So we weren’t prioritised.

Speaker3: Okay. [00:21:20] So then that practice was mixed or what must be.

Speaker1: So it [00:21:25] was it was mostly an NHS practice. Um, it was um, it was [00:21:30] a group of practices that was owned by four partners, and there was a primary [00:21:35] partner and then three other partners, and they had 13 practices in and around Norwich. [00:21:40] Wow. Yeah. And then that transition. So it was all NHS. And then [00:21:45] what they did was they opened up later on. I think I was there for seven years by the way. [00:21:50] Um, but probably later on when I was kind of done my four years, they’d [00:21:55] opened up a few private practices, which I then had the opportunity to work in because I was doing my Masters [00:22:00] in restorative at the same time. So they allowed me to work in their private practice as well, which was great experience. [00:22:05]

Speaker3: So I can imagine the clinical lessons you were learning at these [00:22:10] times. Because, you know, the early days, we all go through those, you know, slow and then speed up, [00:22:15] make some mistakes, can’t talk all the things that people people suffer. But what about [00:22:20] the sort of business lessons you learned there? Because there must have been a load.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. [00:22:25] So do you know what let’s let’s talk about, [00:22:30] you know, business and finance because everyone. It’s something you hear so [00:22:35] commonly that we’re taught how to be dentists and be good clinically, [00:22:40] but we’re not actually taught the business or the finance skills at university. Right? [00:22:45] Um, so. When I came into, [00:22:50] you know, after I’d done my bit and I was an associate again, it was like being at the [00:22:55] deep end when it came to business and understanding hourly rate. I remember [00:23:00] that was the first time that, uh, my trainer, who was then mentoring me as well, [00:23:05] spoke about, okay, you’ve got to start thinking of your hourly rates and, you know, you’ve got to start, [00:23:10] you know, you’ve got to hire an accountant. And it’s suddenly about taxes and, you [00:23:15] know, savings and pension fund and, and all these things that I’d never heard of before. [00:23:20] And. I think that the dialogue [00:23:25] that I’d had in my head until then was that this is really overwhelming, [00:23:30] because I’m not good with money. Okay. And if I look at my [00:23:35] relationship with money prior to that is that I had actually grown up in [00:23:40] a household where my father was a primary earner. [00:23:45] And he managed most of the money in the family. [00:23:50] So talking and discussing about managing money was never really [00:23:55] done when I was young. And then when I left for boarding school, I remember [00:24:00] him, you know, they were dropping me off and they said, oh gosh, we need to open a bank account for you. Remember [00:24:05] walking into HSBC and them opening a bank account, giving me a bank card? And again, it was like almost [00:24:10] given to me.

Speaker1: And here are some cheques. You just need to, you know, deposit a check every [00:24:15] month and that’s your budget. And again, you know, and I don’t think it was their intention, [00:24:20] um, not to teach me this, but it was almost like I [00:24:25] had to learn about managing money on my own. So [00:24:30] in terms of business skills, at the practice that I worked in, I got [00:24:35] to see how multiple practices were being run. I got [00:24:40] to see how staff were being managed, and I got to see how [00:24:45] budgets were used. Um, in terms of buying stock and, you know, how [00:24:50] equipment was managed because a lot of us dentists, we were working in 2 or 3 different practices [00:24:55] within the group. So we were carrying all our equipment. And we also had like a little tool [00:25:00] kit in case something broke down. We were given training on how to fix, you know, the little [00:25:05] thing here or there. Yeah, it was fantastic. Um, and I’ll never forget that because [00:25:10] I remember then transitioning to become an associate. And if something broke down, I wouldn’t [00:25:15] be like, oh my gosh, help me. I don’t know what’s going on here. I’d almost want to, you know, [00:25:20] try to figure out what was happening, um, and try to fix it myself if I could, [00:25:25] you know, at the time. So. I think that in terms of business [00:25:30] skills, I learned quite a few things. On reflection.

Speaker4: Sarika. [00:25:35] A lot of, um, a lot of, shall we say, associate associates [00:25:40] approached me and say, hey, Prav, I want to open my own practice now. Yeah. [00:25:45] And there’s two main reasons that they cite, and it’s really interesting that they say that [00:25:50] you’ll be able to speak from the lens of a practice owner now, but they say I’m giving away [00:25:55] 55% of my income to the practice. Right? [00:26:00] I want to keep 100% of my income. So reason one why they want to open a practice, [00:26:05] right? And reason two, which comes up a lot, is the patient journey [00:26:10] is not how I would like to treat patients. They do this wrong, [00:26:15] they do this wrong. And and I’m restricted with respect to how I can treat the patient [00:26:20] or what the journey is. And they want to create this new journey for the patient and [00:26:25] from a, from a blank canvas. And so practice ownership becomes the only thing [00:26:30] to do. Yeah. Out of curiosity in that experience, in your associate experience, [00:26:35] was there anything patient journey related where you thought, do you know what I want [00:26:40] to do this different? And what were those things?

Speaker1: Absolutely. I [00:26:45] think everyone has different experiences when they work as an associates. And [00:26:50] you come at some point, you come to this realisation of what [00:26:55] kind of dentist do you want to want to be? And I think it starts off from there. [00:27:00] Okay. What kind of dentist do you want to be? And I think that’s really powerful, by the way, [00:27:05] when someone does get to that point, and when I was working [00:27:10] as an associate, there were so many things that I saw in terms of management, [00:27:15] in terms of patient journey, in terms of the care that I wanted to give patients. Right. [00:27:20] And and that, you know, Interlinks with the type of clinical dentistry that I was doing as [00:27:25] well. But you’re so naive at that time because you don’t actually you’re [00:27:30] not actually managing your staff. You’re not actually paying for things. You don’t actually [00:27:35] know the costs of things right at the time. You have all these hopes and dreams [00:27:40] and desires and you think, well, okay, in order to get from A to B and really [00:27:45] kind of practice the dentistry, I want to practice and give that patient journey and the patient care that I [00:27:50] want to give, the only way forward is to open a practice. But [00:27:55] then the hard lessons are in front of you, and they’re the challenges that you then have to face [00:28:00] that it’s not it’s not that easy. It’s not that easy to develop [00:28:05] a patient journey that’s flawless. It’s not that easy to give 100% patient care every [00:28:10] single time because the entire team is involved, not just you, and you have to manage everyone [00:28:15] else around it. And then of course, things cost money. So if you want your patients [00:28:20] to experience a really good journey. And you know you want your staff to be happy. [00:28:25] Um, yes. You have to bring things like create the culture and the value. [00:28:30] Uh, you know, values and things like that, which I’m very pro, by the way, and I love doing with [00:28:35] my team. But at the same time, it costs money. It takes time. [00:28:40] And, you know, it’s it’s a big learning curve, a steep learning curve.

Speaker4: And [00:28:45] so what part specifically of the patient journey during your [00:28:50] time as a say a non principal or non practice owner. [00:28:55] Were you passionate about that you wanted to change. Do you know what that [00:29:00] weren’t right. And have you put them right now or have you struck. It sounds like you’ve [00:29:05] struggled to put them right as everyone does because we paint this ideal of what it should be. But then [00:29:10] the reality kicks in of team management and all the rest of it. You’ve alluded to [00:29:15] but but what specifically? I’m really curious about that, because the dentist who I speak to have [00:29:20] different ideals and they’re not always the same. So I’m just wondering what yours yours were.

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:29:25] absolutely. And to be honest with you, it was part of my business plan was to have [00:29:30] that that full flow from beginning to end of the patient journey. [00:29:35] And I think that when there is a break in that, then that’s when [00:29:40] it starts to affect patient journey and patient care. So what I realised, my experience is working as an associate, [00:29:45] was that often receptionists would pick up the phone and adhere their, their tone [00:29:50] and the way they were speaking to patients wasn’t very welcoming. I would then do everything [00:29:55] I could bend over backwards to give them the best care, and sometimes then there wasn’t great [00:30:00] aftercare, you know? Again, phone call, check out, check in. You know, all [00:30:05] of that just wasn’t done the way I, I thought it should be done. And [00:30:10] so was actually part of my business plan is patient journey and patient care is is at the core [00:30:15] of everything that I want my practice to be about. Um, and therefore everyone [00:30:20] is trained on that from day dot. Right. And there is continuous [00:30:25] training on that as we move forward. It’s always something that we talk about. It’s always [00:30:30] something that we prioritise as almost being the USP [00:30:35] in our practice as well. And honestly, our practice has grown organically. [00:30:40]

Speaker1: You know, we’ve hardly had to do huge amounts of marketing and marketing, um, huge [00:30:45] amounts of advertisement. And it’s down to building our reputation, you know, it’s just [00:30:50] down to trying to understand what is it that patients want, what is it they need? And incorporating it in the patient [00:30:55] journey. People think patient journey is just a line from A to B. It’s not. It’s so [00:31:00] much more complex than that. There’s so much more that you have to add along the way. So [00:31:05] then and then you have to refine everything as you’re going along the way, right? And you have to [00:31:10] almost be accountable for everything, um, along the way as well. And then do that constant training. So [00:31:15] not only is it being sustained, you’re getting better and better and better [00:31:20] at it. Right. Um, and it’s again down to systems and processes in the practice. [00:31:25] It’s um, it’s down to having, uh, certain standards. So standardising [00:31:30] that if someone came to see me and I give them a particular [00:31:35] service, if they went to see one of my associates, they’re getting exactly the same service. It’s not like I went to see the principal [00:31:40] of the practice. It’s like I went to see someone at this practice, and it was an incredible. [00:31:45]

Speaker4: And then at what point did Rishi come in? At what point did. Because [00:31:50] Rishi, for those who don’t know, Rishi is your your your husband and your, shall [00:31:55] we say, business partner, but he runs the business with you and um. Yeah, I’ve had the I’ve had the privilege [00:32:00] of obviously working with you guys and having lengthy conversations both with Rishi and yourself. [00:32:05] And I think certainly for me, that the more successful [00:32:10] practices that I work with are those that have family involved, right? [00:32:15] It can also cause problems as well. I’ve seen I’ve seen that too. Right. But actually having [00:32:20] that person on board that you can give 100% trust to and you’ve both got the same [00:32:25] vision. So tell us about when Rishi came into your life. Um, and then [00:32:30] how that evolved in, in the, in the practice. Did you, did you buy it together? [00:32:35] Did he come along later? What was the chronology of all of that? And what does Rishi do in [00:32:40] the practice? Sure.

Speaker1: So when I was an associate and I was reflecting back and I [00:32:45] wanted to buy the practice that that seed was planted, okay, I knew that I wanted to go in a different direction. [00:32:50] My brother, who’s five years younger than me, was also a dentist, and [00:32:55] I remember having a conversation. He said, look, you know, we’re both dentists. It only makes sense that we do this together. [00:33:00] My brother lived in Manchester at the time, okay, and we lived in London, [00:33:05] so there was obviously that distance and we started the journey. We started looking at practices [00:33:10] and Rishi was very much involved in looking at the financial [00:33:15] side because that’s Rishi’s background. Okay. He was in finance. He was still working in finance [00:33:20] at the time. So we kind of leveraged his, you know, on his knowledge and [00:33:25] his skills. Um, and, you know, we just thought, well, here he can contribute really well here. And [00:33:30] we learned things along the way as well. Um, you know, about some of the profitability, finances, [00:33:35] you know, accounts in that side of things. And in the end, it didn’t work out with my brother because they [00:33:40] decided to stay in the Midlands. Um, and then so, you [00:33:45] know, I said, well, I still want to go down this route. Are you happy to help me? And she said, yeah, absolutely. So we were still looking [00:33:50] at practices and then he started getting more and more interested in it. And, [00:33:55] and then he said to me, do you know, one day he said, darling, would it be [00:34:00] okay if we if we did this together? Um, and you know, we’ve got, we’ve [00:34:05] got fantastic.

Speaker1: You know, we’ve got skills on, on either end. You’ve got you can be the kind of clinical [00:34:10] director in that side of it and take control of that. And I can help with the whole, um, [00:34:15] you know, financial side of it, the marketing, um, you know, and, [00:34:20] you know, also help with like, management of staff and, but take over the entire [00:34:25] finance side of it. And it just worked out really well because we’ve got completely different [00:34:30] skill sets. But there are two strong skill sets that you need to run [00:34:35] a practice really efficiently. And yeah, we [00:34:40] started our journey. So basically when we bought the practice where she was still working in banking, [00:34:45] um, we wanted to kind of we’d invested a lot of money, we’d taken a lot of risk. [00:34:50] Um, and just a few years prior, we’d bought our first property as well. So, um, [00:34:55] he just said that. Look, until the finances, you know, work out, personal finances work out, I’ll [00:35:00] continue to work. So he was working two jobs, I remember, you know, working very late at night, [00:35:05] both of us, you know, um, so the first few years were really tough, and then he transitioned [00:35:10] into working full time. And yeah, we’re we’re a 5050 partnership in the practice.

Speaker3: Tell [00:35:15] us the the steps you went through to actually conceive the practice. I mean, were you thinking [00:35:20] squat? Were you thinking buyer practice? Were both things in your head? And [00:35:25] then something shifted you one way or the other?

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Um, it was, it was looking [00:35:30] at both. And I think you have to look at both options. Uh, it’s just about the opportunity [00:35:35] that came our way. I mean, Payman, you’ve been to our practice, right? Like, what’s not to love [00:35:40] about that building? It is just we. I just fell in love with it. [00:35:45]

Speaker3: Was it existing or did you was existing. Did you start it yourself? You started yourself? No, [00:35:50] I was existing practice.

Speaker1: Yeah, but it was a very small, slow two surgery practice [00:35:55] and we just saw opportunity. I mean, she’s I remember him coming home and saying [00:36:00] I’ve found this fancy practice and you’re going to love it. I know you’re going to love it. And [00:36:05] you know, we both just fell in love with it. Him because of the financial [00:36:10] possibility of what he could achieve from that side. And, and for me, about [00:36:15] what I could create and what I could do and the building and the vibe and the energy [00:36:20] and all of that, like, you know, was was just so in sync with who I was. So [00:36:25] it was a great synergy.

Speaker3: Were you sure it was going to be in Docklands? Did you know that already before? [00:36:30] You know, was that the only place you were looking?

Speaker1: No, not at all. And it was we were living literally on the other side of the river, [00:36:35] so we can see the building from our where we lived in our apartment and where we lived. But absolutely [00:36:40] not. I think when you’re when you’re looking for a practice, you’ve got to explore [00:36:45] all options. You’ve. Go to explore squat practice. You’ve got to explore [00:36:50] an existing practice. And you know, of course, you [00:36:55] know, we wanted it to be, you know, somewhere that was close ish for us to get to because [00:37:00] we know that we have to spend a lot of time there. So that was important. Um, but at the same [00:37:05] time, we were willing to move for the right practice as well. You know, we were we didn’t we didn’t have any children at the time. [00:37:10] So in that sense, we had the flexibility. But it was about the [00:37:15] right practice. And I think it’s a really important, um, that [00:37:20] you know exactly what you want and then you take your time [00:37:25] to look for it if you’re going to invest in something like that.

Speaker3: So [00:37:30] what what were your you know, we’ve got lots of moving parts when you buy a practice. Right. Should it be, [00:37:35] you know, leasehold, freehold. How big how many people potential for for growth. [00:37:40] What what what were your sort of red lines. What were you saying. Were you saying I definitely want a place that [00:37:45] I can do up and grow, or were you saying it has to be fully [00:37:50] private or what were the what were the parameters that you were looking in?

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. [00:37:55] And I think it’s important that you have parameters. Right. So again, really understanding what you [00:38:00] want. So definitely at the time I the type of dentistry I was doing, I was already [00:38:05] working in, you know, a private practice and I wanted it to be fully private. And it was an [00:38:10] existing private practice that we bought in terms of leasehold freehold to us. We were [00:38:15] exploring all options, but we definitely wanted a site where we [00:38:20] could grow in. So in terms of the the layout and the space and looking [00:38:25] at that, I mean, this was AA2 surgery practice that turned into a very vibrant and busy [00:38:30] four surgery practice. Right? So we were able to do that over two refurbishments. And [00:38:35] yeah, you always want the potential for growth.

Speaker3: So how many people was it when [00:38:40] you how many people was it when you bought it and how many people you know.

Speaker1: Gosh, there was seven people, [00:38:45] including everybody. And now we both are lead a team of [00:38:50] 25.

Speaker3: Wow. Since 2017.

Speaker1: Oh, it’s seven years. [00:38:55]

Speaker3: Oh excellent.

Speaker4: So when you when you bought the practice, [00:39:00] um, a lot of people say to me that, um, after buying the practice, they uncover some skeletons, [00:39:05] right, that they didn’t know about when they, when they signed on the dotted line. [00:39:10] And was there anything like that that came any kind of surprises or shocks during the early days where you [00:39:15] thought, oh, crap, I’ve got to deal with this now? And what were the what were the most challenging things [00:39:20] in the in the early days of, um, buying an existing practice? Okay.

Speaker1: So [00:39:25] I’d say the first thing that comes to memory is, is staff. Okay. You come [00:39:30] in with all these different ideas about how you want your team to be, but [00:39:35] you’re taking over an existing team that is run and managed very, very differently. So [00:39:40] you can bring in all your ideas and, you [00:39:45] know, and again, they’re they’ve been sat in a comfort zone. So you’re going to come in with all these different changes. [00:39:50] And some staff will be excited by that and some just won’t be. And I think you’ve got to be quite thick skinned [00:39:55] about that. Um, and you’ve got to start learning about recruitment [00:40:00] and how to recruit. So I’d say that was the number one challenge that [00:40:05] we faced when we first bought the practice. And then the second thing was probably [00:40:10] just structural, structural things like in terms of, you know, when you it’s like going to buy [00:40:15] a house, right? It’s exactly the same thing. You get like a really short opportunity to go in [00:40:20] and, and, and see, it’s not like a test drive that you get to like work in it or live in [00:40:25] it. I mean, some people, you know, may have the privilege to do that, but, you know, we just had a quick, you know, look [00:40:30] at the practice and and then that was it.

Speaker1: Make a decision because there’s [00:40:35] people competing, you know, against this in this buying process. So we had to be quite quick. [00:40:40] Um, so structurally for sure, I remember our deacon room and how everything [00:40:45] was just literally breaking down. And I was thinking, oh my goodness, how did we not see this when we when, [00:40:50] when when we walked around? How could we, you know, miss miss these things. But but that was [00:40:55] it, to be honest with you. And then it was just about clearing up and the mess [00:41:00] and, and you know, all the paperwork and the boxes and all this kind of stuff. And I’m [00:41:05] a very organised person. So thank God for that skill because, um, I spent many, [00:41:10] many Saturdays and Sundays, you know, with, with my marigolds on and, you know, like [00:41:15] going through all these boxes and, and, you know, going through all this mess. So [00:41:20] I think just be prepared potentially for that. But it depends on the type of practice you’re buying. Right. [00:41:25] Sure.

Speaker4: Of course. Um, sureka. Let’s let’s move on now [00:41:30] to, um, your journey today, which is very different from, well, obviously, [00:41:35] whatever, whatever you do in the past shapes your future. Right? But a [00:41:40] lot of the content that you seem to be putting out right now is, is more, um, inspirational, aspirational. [00:41:45] Motivational in terms of its, um, vibe and, [00:41:50] um, what sort of instigated that? What was the what was the driving force [00:41:55] behind that? And then, um, you know, I remember speaking to you a few [00:42:00] months ago and you said to me, Prav, you know what? I really want to do something [00:42:05] different for women in dentistry. I feel they’re underrepresented. [00:42:10] I feel that there’s so much more we can do [00:42:15] for them. And I want to help. So I want to put a course together to [00:42:20] help women in dentistry. So I think my first question is, what is it specifically [00:42:25] about women in dentistry that is is different and more more difficult, [00:42:30] should we say for you guys? And then what is it that drove that [00:42:35] motivation.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. So look, I think since I’ve [00:42:40] graduated I’ve noticed a huge progression, right, in [00:42:45] dentistry, but not just on the clinical side of the profession, but in the industry as, [00:42:50] as a whole. Okay. And for most of my career so far, I’ve been really passionate about [00:42:55] dentistry. However, I think that I have definitely [00:43:00] faced obstacles and I’ve definitely faced challenges, um, in [00:43:05] my career so far. And it’s been on reflection of some of the barriers that [00:43:10] I face and that I’ve experienced. And then, you know, over the last, I’d say [00:43:15] 7 or 8 years, I’ve been having countless conversations with women in [00:43:20] dentistry, not just clinical side of dentistry, but also the industry side [00:43:25] of dentistry. And and I’ve started to notice that there’s a trend that [00:43:30] a lot of us are facing similar barriers, and maybe not all the ones that I’ve [00:43:35] experienced, but a lot of women are facing the same barriers. And I started to, you know, I started to discuss [00:43:40] it with my husband and my friends and other dentists. That why why are we not discussing this more? [00:43:45] Why is there not more kind of education around how women can [00:43:50] overcome barriers, um, in dentistry? And look, if you look at the statistics [00:43:55] of how things are now, you know, 50% or more of graduates are female, [00:44:00] right? So then I started to question, well, in this profession [00:44:05] that I love, what is the future of dentistry actually look like? Right. If many of us are are [00:44:10] facing barriers such as potentially lack of confidence or management of [00:44:15] time or our relationship with money and all these common, you know, these, these common [00:44:20] beliefs that we have, then what is the future of dentistry actually look like? Last [00:44:25] year I climbed Kilimanjaro, and part of that climb was for me to find [00:44:30] my purpose and to get clarity on my purpose. And I feel [00:44:35] like it’s almost like a mission for me now to really [00:44:40] reach out to women, inspire them, motivate them, and, [00:44:45] you know, for them to feel like they are extremely strong leaders in [00:44:50] the dental field.

Speaker4: Sarika, what are the most common barriers? You mentioned a [00:44:55] few barriers there, and a couple of them, um, you mentioned would be barriers that are, you know, [00:45:00] um, experienced by both men and women, right? So for example, relationship with money or finances [00:45:05] and things like that. So I want to dig into more specifically the sort of things [00:45:10] that, you know, women in dentistry have reached out to you about and maybe some of your own barriers that [00:45:15] you’ve faced. Um, as a female in dentistry, you know, whether it revolves [00:45:20] around being a wife, a mother and a business owner all at once and trying to manage [00:45:25] that juggle, that juggling act. What are some of the most common barriers [00:45:30] that you’ve heard about or experienced yourself? Sure.

Speaker1: So I think when I first [00:45:35] started off as a young dentist, um, in that practice that I worked in, it was a very male dominated [00:45:40] profession. And at the time, and on [00:45:45] a social level, I would say there was a lack of. And [00:45:50] socially what what what the practice did for other women. There was lots of social [00:45:55] events that were planned for men, but very little for women. So not not only [00:46:00] were the men kind of had the opportunity to connect, and the opportunities for women [00:46:05] to connect were only happening at work and not outside of work. And I also thought that [00:46:10] there was a lack of female to female support. I only [00:46:15] ever went to my, my, um, my male, um, dentist, [00:46:20] you know, dentist friends for help, for support and for mentorship, but very little. There was [00:46:25] very little female to female support. I also think, relatively speaking, that dentistry [00:46:30] is quite a daunting to career to work in, especially in the initial years. You’re [00:46:35] expected to competently work on your own from day one, and [00:46:40] not only is that challenging on so many levels, but it can be really isolating and [00:46:45] confidence. I think it’s important for us to talk about confidence, you know, two huge [00:46:50] qualities that are correlated in dentistry and in today’s world [00:46:55] are confidence and effective communication. So what [00:47:00] I realised with myself and countless conversations that I’ve had with women on this topic, [00:47:05] is that women often have the competence, but they don’t have the confidence [00:47:10] in many situations. And it’s almost the opposite for men sometimes [00:47:15] I think. But, but, but you know, when, when [00:47:20] and I mean that very respectfully.

Speaker1: But, um, when we talk about confidence [00:47:25] in particular, I think that there are two types of confidence that people have. And it’s important to talk about [00:47:30] this. There’s an outer confidence on how you behave in your environment [00:47:35] and rely on what other people think of us. And then there is an inner confidence [00:47:40] in how you accept and trust yourself and almost have a sense of control in [00:47:45] your life. So personally, I would say that for most of my life, [00:47:50] though I had portrayed outer confidence, I didn’t have much inner confidence. Uh, [00:47:55] and because of that, I suffered with a lot of stress, anxiety, imposter [00:48:00] thoughts, fear, self-judgment, and perfectionism. And [00:48:05] not just in relation to my clinical dentistry, but in other aspects of my life, too. So, [00:48:10] you know, we should identify that confidence or a lack of confidence. [00:48:15] It’s a very gender neutral concept, and everyone will be confident and not confident about [00:48:20] something. But and I think there’s a big debate around stereotyping that [00:48:25] outcomes and of decisions that women make are due to a lack of self confidence. [00:48:30] And I don’t think we should go into that because it’s more important to discuss why [00:48:35] some women suffer with a lack of confidence. And if I may continue, [00:48:40] I think in my opinion, this comes down to two things. So [00:48:45] the first is our environment and what we see as [00:48:50] women. We’ve grown up and we still live and work in quite a male dominated environment. [00:48:55] Yes, things are changing, but it’s definitely not happening at the magnitude and speed at which [00:49:00] we think it’s changing.

Speaker1: And, you know, we’ve started to see that shift in the last [00:49:05] few years in dentistry where women are not only showcasing incredible [00:49:10] clinical skills, but they’re more involved in teaching and lecturing. [00:49:15] They’re building and developing more businesses and clinics and [00:49:20] taking on bigger leadership roles. And I just want to maybe take this opportunity right now to acknowledge [00:49:25] and commend those serious female powerhouses that are out there, although worldwide, [00:49:30] we have noticed that, like I said, there’s that huge movement [00:49:35] in female empowerment, but the speed at which it’s happening is, is [00:49:40] not at what we think it is, especially because some of the choices [00:49:45] and opportunities that women have had have only really happened within the last hundred years or so, [00:49:50] many of which have happened in the last 50 years. So for the majority [00:49:55] of women in our life, we’ve been influenced by a male dominated world. You know, we’ve we’ve [00:50:00] lived in patriarchy for so long, and for those women that are already making it, they’ve had to [00:50:05] overcome some pretty big biases and challenges. And again, you know, just [00:50:10] to let you both know, this is a really common conversation, a topic of conversation, [00:50:15] um, amongst women. And I think the second reason behind a lack of self-confidence [00:50:20] sometimes is our upbringing to some degree, um, namely cultures and beliefs. [00:50:25] And I’d like to maybe discuss one aspect of this, and it’s called the [00:50:30] The Good Girl syndrome. Have either of you heard of this? The good girl syndrome? Yeah, yeah. [00:50:35] Um, be a.

Speaker3: Good girl and do the.

Speaker1: Exactly. Um, and, you know, [00:50:40] it’s often used in our childhood by our caregivers. So the good girl syndrome is basically just [00:50:45] the manifestation of traits valued and praised amongst little girls, [00:50:50] and how deviating from those traits makes them feel guilty or fearful of [00:50:55] being judged, constantly seeking validation from others and the need [00:51:00] to excel in everything that they do. So they’re setting themselves really, really high standards all the time [00:51:05] and almost being perfect. And this inability to say no, um, and [00:51:10] being afraid of upsetting others. So it’s no wonder, with this kind of conditioning, [00:51:15] that many women develop scripts, mindset, beliefs that [00:51:20] lead to them suffering with fear, self-doubt, impostor thoughts, perfectionism, [00:51:25] people pleasing um, and a lack of deep inner confidence. [00:51:30]

Speaker4: I’ve got a question. I’ve got a question related to that, which is, um, it relates [00:51:35] to children, actually, because, um, what you just brought up there is, is [00:51:40] be a be a good girl in that. So, so you actually it’s almost like [00:51:45] you get this definition of what being a good girl is, and then you don’t want to be a [00:51:50] bad girl. So you you behave in that certain way and you become conditioned, right? Absolutely. [00:51:55] But boy or girl with our with our children. Right. We can say things to [00:52:00] our kids, right? Oh, you’re a really good girl. You’re a good boy, you’re a good kid, blah blah, [00:52:05] blah, blah, blah. And unknowingly, we could be conditioning them into [00:52:10] what is good or bad. And on the whole, I believe we should teach our teach [00:52:15] our kids, um, you know, how to behave and set examples for them and stuff. But [00:52:20] has that impacted the way you, you interact with, with your kids and what you say and how you communicate [00:52:25] with them? Our curiosity.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that [00:52:30] you’re right. We we use we use that phrase quite a bit. Right. Like be a good boy [00:52:35] and do this. Or if you’re not going to be a good boy, you’re going to be naughty. You won’t get that. But yeah, [00:52:40] you know, we’ve got to be careful on how we use that phrase. I think it’s [00:52:45] really important. And I think modern parenting, there is a bit more awareness around [00:52:50] how we use that phrase, uh, phrase. Because, you know, we recognise that, [00:52:55] especially me as a woman. I feel that I’ve recognised through my upbringing how much it’s affected [00:53:00] me. And I have memories of, you know, being the older sibling as well that, [00:53:05] you know, I’d be playing with, with with my with my brother. Um, he’s [00:53:10] trying to snatch a toy from me. And this happens over and over again. He’s trying to snatch a toy from me. And my parents would say, [00:53:15] do you know what? I’ll give it to your brother. You’re such a good girl, you know? And everything was. You’re such a good girl. You’re [00:53:20] such a good girl. And for such a long time, you know, we I had that fear [00:53:25] of judgement from people, you know, for so long.

Speaker1: And it’s crazy how powerful that is, because [00:53:30] it really stops you from moving forward and achieving [00:53:35] goals, or trying something new and taking on a new challenge and also constantly [00:53:40] seeking validation. You know, it was it was only, you know. I’d say maybe ten years [00:53:45] ago, where I looked at myself and I thought, gosh, I’m so proud of myself for [00:53:50] achieving what I’ve achieved because I’ve been through a lot. And, you know, I don’t talk about enough. But how [00:53:55] often do we say that we’re proud of ourselves and what we’ve achieved? Right. And I [00:54:00] think we came from a generation where parents didn’t necessarily tell you that. And I think, [00:54:05] I think my parents told me that, you know, they were proud of me for me just a few years ago. You [00:54:10] know, they look back at my life. I was so proud of you. And I’m like, thanks. I’ve never heard you say that before. [00:54:15] And again, not intentionally right. But I think that culturally it [00:54:20] wasn’t just we weren’t given, you know, that that validation.

Speaker3: So does your [00:54:25] course cover this aspect as well?

Speaker1: Absolutely. Okay. So I guess [00:54:30] let’s talk about the course okay. The course is around self leadership [00:54:35] for for women in dentistry. And I think that there is a difference [00:54:40] between leadership and self leadership. And we should understand what that what that difference is. [00:54:45] And I’d like to bring some clarity around that. So leadership is defined as the ability [00:54:50] to lead other people. So there’s an external motivation. However [00:54:55] the more common leadership training um that will [00:55:00] teach elements of self leadership like having certain thoughts, behaviours and attributes. So [00:55:05] if you both visualise a beautiful tree, we’ll call it the leadership [00:55:10] tree. And this tree has roots, a tree trunk and branches. The [00:55:15] self leadership is the roots and the skills of self. Leadership is the roots. The [00:55:20] trunk is is macro or external leadership skills and [00:55:25] the branches are the different types of leadership roles and styles. So [00:55:30] self leadership the rules, the roots, sorry [00:55:35] is the fundamental base of any leadership. It’s [00:55:40] having a true sense of who you really are, the potential of what you can [00:55:45] do. So the power of choice and have full clarity on your goals [00:55:50] where you’re going, coupled with the ability to be able to intentionally [00:55:55] with full control influence your thinking, your feelings, and your actions on the way to getting there. [00:56:00] So with Self-leadership skills, you’re able to successfully [00:56:05] navigate, thrive, and succeed through life’s challenges. Master [00:56:10] self-awareness. Self-confidence. Self-management. Make time work for you. [00:56:15] Decrease stress and overwhelm. Be resilient in the face of adversity. [00:56:20] Find meaning and purpose in your greater.

Speaker1: Why. Understand [00:56:25] from your individual strengths and how to leverage them. Experience [00:56:30] better relationships with others around you, at home and at work, and [00:56:35] beginning to live life with real intentionality and literally [00:56:40] be the most authentic version of yourself every single day. So [00:56:45] by practising and mastering self-leadership, you’re developing [00:56:50] your your inner game, okay? And your inner game consists of your mindset, which is intention, [00:56:55] self-awareness like your authenticity, self-confidence, self-belief, self-management, [00:57:00] which is self-motivation. And then with this and having more clarity around [00:57:05] it, your choices and decisions, you positively influence your outer game and [00:57:10] that’s your actions. So I believe that self leadership, through [00:57:15] my own experience, is the foundation for being an effective human [00:57:20] in the current contemporary world that that we live in. And [00:57:25] once you understand that, you can start to master your macro external leadership [00:57:30] skills and then move on to more niche leadership styles. So [00:57:35] a lot of people ask me that, you know, does does self leadership mean that [00:57:40] you’re going to suddenly transition in this world? Um, and [00:57:45] it’s not necessarily that. Um, so being a self leader doesn’t, [00:57:50] you know, doesn’t mean that you have to be a leader in the traditional traditional sense. Right? Not [00:57:55] everyone wants to lead. So the world needs both leaders and followers. And [00:58:00] I guess I truly believe that if you can’t effectively lead others [00:58:05] in any aspect of your life, then you [00:58:10] know you can’t effectively lead others in any aspect of your life if you can’t lead yourself first. And [00:58:15] that’s so important.

Speaker3: But the you know, it’s a bit like [00:58:20] asking, um, how do I lose weight? Well, you go to the gym and you eat good [00:58:25] food. The information, but the execution on it, [00:58:30] the mindset it takes to turn up for yourself. I find [00:58:35] that the real challenge because I’ll turn up for others. But for yourself, what’s [00:58:40] the what’s a hack you can use to take care of that?

Speaker1: So look, [00:58:45] mindset and mindset shift, which is a huge part of self leadership. You’ve [00:58:50] got to be able to understand that because a lot of what the habits that are already set in us [00:58:55] is from experience and from from, from previous beliefs. Right. And [00:59:00] the good thing is the brain is mouldable and that there are strategies on [00:59:05] how you can change that mindset and make that shift. But look, [00:59:10] I mean payment, you have to realise that you want the change first, right? [00:59:15] You have to realise, you know, where is it you want to go, what kind of life [00:59:20] do you really want to live? Right? And once you have that set [00:59:25] in stone, then you’re ready to then use all the strategies, um, from [00:59:30] self leadership, create that mindset change. And then it’s all about intentionality, [00:59:35] accountability, responsibility. And then moving on from there.

Speaker3: I know, but [00:59:40] I want to live a skinny life. That’s the life. Change. [00:59:45] It’s lovely. It’s lovely.

Speaker1: You know, I’ve been through that myself, you know, [00:59:50] I’m.

Speaker3: Sure you, you.

Speaker1: Know, and you know, I feel like I’m very age positive. [00:59:55] And I feel I’m in my 40s now, and I’m probably in terms of my fitness, [01:00:00] um, and my ability, my energy. I’m the best that I’ve been possibly [01:00:05] ever in my life. Really? Absolutely. And again, it was just down [01:00:10] to, first of all, understanding, why do I why do I want to change? [01:00:15] Why do I want to lose weight? Why do I want to be in this state of energy and and creating [01:00:20] that why? And then having a system put in place in terms of your diet [01:00:25] and your exercise and making them non-negotiables right in our life. And I think [01:00:30] Rishi and I have created such a great balance in our lives. And even when it comes to time management [01:00:35] for our business, what we do and our son, we’ve made all [01:00:40] our exercise in our health a non-negotiable. So it’s totally possible [01:00:45] to like that.

Speaker3: Let’s finish with the darker side. [01:00:50] When we on this pod, we like to look at errors. Mistakes in the hope that [01:00:55] we can all learn from them. When I when I say clinical mistakes, [01:01:00] what comes to mind?

Speaker1: Gosh. One one [01:01:05] dark, dark memory. So. At university, [01:01:10] we didn’t have a lot of clinical experience with molar endo. And [01:01:15] so I think I just done one more llorando when I graduated. Right. [01:01:20] And then in my VCE, that’s it. You’re you’re working in NHS practice. [01:01:25] You have to face it. Everything that comes in, you’re responsible for every single person [01:01:30] that comes through that door. And I remember seeing this molar endo that [01:01:35] that I had to do was really nervous about it. I was going through all my notes again. I was talking to, you [01:01:40] know, my friends, mentors, and basically I had [01:01:45] over extruded in, in all all the canals. And the smaller [01:01:50] endo had failed about a year on and another dentist [01:01:55] then took it out. I had the tooth had to be extracted, so extracted it and [01:02:00] you could see the little bit of GP at the end of the roots. And I remember a [01:02:05] nurse going around and having this tooth on the tissue and showing it to everyone and saying, look, [01:02:10] Sarika did this endo, you know, um, and that was a devastating. [01:02:15]

Speaker3: How did that happen?

Speaker1: Devastating for me.

Speaker3: How did that happen that [01:02:20] last piece.

Speaker1: Yeah. Gosh I mean this is it. Right. And [01:02:25] she was she was my nurse. She was my nurse in my PT. And you know, something I haven’t spoken about today was, [01:02:30] um, that I was bullied by her in, in my year, um, [01:02:35] and kind of had to face that challenge as well. So. It was just one of those [01:02:40] things. And I think you just have to know that as a dentist, [01:02:45] you have a huge responsibility, right? You’re building your experience with time, and you [01:02:50] have to be patient and kind to yourself. Um, as you progress through your career, you [01:02:55] have to own your mistakes and, you know, reflect on them, learn from [01:03:00] them, and just be better. Be better every single day. But, [01:03:05] you know, all of us know that it’s it’s experience comes with time. You’re always going to [01:03:10] have challenges, all different types of challenges, but it’s about facing them. And then, [01:03:15] you know, being able to make the right decisions and make the right choices [01:03:20] and then move on from there.

Speaker3: What about if we were to push the rewind button [01:03:25] on platinum? Back to the day you started. Now, knowing [01:03:30] what you know now, what different decisions would you make?

Speaker1: Gosh. [01:03:35] Um.

Speaker3: Would you do something earlier [01:03:40] or.

Speaker1: Do you know what? No. Because, um, that triggered you [01:03:45] won’t believe it. But that moment actually triggered my decision [01:03:50] to then do my mjff and then do my MSC in restorative [01:03:55] Easemon. I just, I told myself, and I don’t know, you know, I [01:04:00] guess that with every challenge we talk about resilience. With [01:04:05] that challenge, there’s there’s trauma attached to it. Right. And we’re not good about talking about that trauma. [01:04:10] So you can you know, a lot of people kind of react to that trauma. And I guess that [01:04:15] that was my reaction to the trauma. And I told myself that I wanted to be the best. [01:04:20] I would never let this ever, ever, ever happen again. I would take 100% responsibility. [01:04:25] And for every single treatment that came my way, I would just make sure that [01:04:30] I’d done my best. And if it was out of my skill set, I’m not going to be scared [01:04:35] about asking for help anymore. I’m not going to be scared just to kind of hit the [01:04:40] pause button and just be like, you know what? This is out of my skill set, and I just [01:04:45] need to think about this a little bit more. And what it did was it just took a bit [01:04:50] of bit of fear away. It really it was like a bit of a punch in the face, to be honest with you. [01:04:55] And it took a bit of the fear away, but it had a really positive impact.

Speaker3: Often [01:05:00] look at. Often the worst thing that happens to you in your life is ends up being the best [01:05:05] thing because of forms you, doesn’t it? That it changes changes who [01:05:10] you are. And you know when there’s a whole podcast called How to Fail. [01:05:15] It’s where they come in with their three biggest failures. And then and then they talk about how [01:05:20] brilliant it was for their lives. Yeah, we’re coming to the end of our time. Prav.

Speaker4: Um, [01:05:25] I guess that leaves us to tap into our final questions. [01:05:30] But just before we do that, Sarika, um, for those, um, out there listening [01:05:35] to this podcast, if they wanted to find out more information about your upcoming course that [01:05:40] you’re going to be running, how would they do that?

Speaker1: Okay. So they can access [01:05:45] my website, which is flourish as a female.com, and [01:05:50] they can also DM me on my Instagram platform which is Doctor Sarika Shah. [01:05:55] So absolutely. And they can go and learn about everything about the course [01:06:00] on their.

Speaker4: And we will. We will put the link to your website in the [01:06:05] show notes as well, so people can just click straight through if they if they want to find that. Um, just to, just [01:06:10] to make it a little bit easier. Fantastic. But on to our final question, Sarika. Let’s say, [01:06:15] um, you get to the the it’s your final day on the planet, right? And, um, [01:06:20] you’ve got your loved ones around you, and you had to leave them with three [01:06:25] pieces of wisdom. What would they be?

Speaker1: So I’d say [01:06:30] the first would be always prioritise your well-being. The [01:06:35] second would be always be your authentic self [01:06:40] and never sacrifice anything you [01:06:45] sense you will regret later on in life. The [01:06:50] third would be to adopt a champions discipline in managing your [01:06:55] time. And if I had one tiny, tiny little breath left, if I may, [01:07:00] is I would say that trust yourself. And [01:07:05] know that you are resourceful enough to make your dreams come true.

Speaker4: Lovely. [01:07:10] Lovely. And, um, how would you like to be remembered?

Speaker1: I [01:07:15] think as someone who inspired [01:07:20] so many women in dentistry and created huge [01:07:25] impact, not just in the UK, but on a global level. By creating [01:07:30] such a big change in their lives and being able to really get them [01:07:35] to flourish and thrive, not just in their professional life, but in everything that they do. [01:07:40] And I want to be remembered for someone that is therefore created a big [01:07:45] impact in the future of dentistry.

Speaker4: Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. [01:07:50] Payman. Over to your party.

Speaker5: The [01:07:55] question is.

Speaker3: The question is a question about who you want to spend some time and talk to. So, fantasy dinner party. [01:08:00] Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Speaker1: So [01:08:05] my first one definitely would be Michelle Obama. The reason being is I [01:08:10] think that she has such a strong sense of self, and I think that even [01:08:15] before President Obama started his presidency, she [01:08:20] already had such a strong career and knew her goals is so much clarity. She’s just such [01:08:25] a strong human being, and I’d love to talk to her so much more about how [01:08:30] she continued to be herself and even more and still, [01:08:35] you know, and still be married to President Obama and still be able to support him. So I [01:08:40] think that her trying to understand where she got her sense of self from, for sure.

Speaker6: Hmm’hmm. [01:08:45]

Speaker3: It’s not the first time she’s. And who [01:08:50] would you have? Who else?

Speaker1: My second one would actually be Cleopatra. Um. [01:08:55] And I think she’s one of the. She’s an ancient queen. Right. [01:09:00] And again, in this, like, very patriarchal society [01:09:05] and how she used her intellect and [01:09:10] some of her female traits to be able to lead. And I’d love [01:09:15] to understand the challenges that she faced and how she overcame them, but how [01:09:20] she truly stayed true to herself right til the end, [01:09:25] right? She really fought for what she believed in. And I thought, that’s really inspiring. So definitely hard. [01:09:30]

Speaker5: And nice.

Speaker1: I guess my third one would be [01:09:35] Mahatma Gandhi, because once again, he has such an immense sense of [01:09:40] self and authenticity and he’s such an amazing communicator, [01:09:45] right? That was what was really interesting about him, that he was able to inspire and persuade [01:09:50] millions of people to create impact from an individual [01:09:55] level to a country to a global level. Right. And [01:10:00] he was able to combine this authenticity, his vision and his [01:10:05] purpose. And I guess, like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, he was [01:10:10] such an effective communicator using verbal and nonverbal communication. But also, [01:10:15] I think, again, he was true to himself. Being Jain. He focussed his actions [01:10:20] using the founding principle of Jainism, which is non-violence. And he led so many [01:10:25] passive rebellions and protests. So I’d love to tap into his mind and have a fantasy [01:10:30] dinner with him. Definitely.

Speaker5: Brilliant.

Speaker4: Wonderful.

Speaker3: Thank you so much [01:10:35] for doing this. Looking looking forward to seeing to seeing how how how the course goes [01:10:40] and how the practice goes as well. Hopefully we have you back in five years and there’s a chain of platinums. [01:10:45] And thank you. Let’s see how it goes. Lovely to have you. Thank [01:10:50] you.

Speaker4: Yeah I’m really interested to see how the course evolves. Really? And, um, you [01:10:55] become this leading light for female dentists, not only here, but I really like [01:11:00] the way you articulated your vision globally. I think that’s I think that’s lovely. So [01:11:05] thank thanks for sharing today, Sarika, and thanks for your time.

Speaker1: Thank you so much. Thank you both. Have a [01:11:10] lovely day.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:11:15] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:11:20] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:11:25] and Prav Solanki.

Speaker4: Thanks for listening, guys. If [01:11:30] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:11:35] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, [01:11:40] because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:11:45] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some [01:11:50] value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker4: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:11:55]

Speaker1: I don’t feel guilty about leaving the NHS at all. I think that as a system, [00:00:05] the the faster people leave it, the faster it will get restructured because I don’t think it’s a functioning system. [00:00:10] Personally, I think we should just all rebel against it because it doesn’t serve people [00:00:15] at all. It keeps people in ongoing maintenance that’s not [00:00:20] actually adequate for ideal dental health, you know. So I’m in [00:00:25] favour of this whole system being restructured. And I understand that absolutely. People out there who just do [00:00:30] not have the funds to do any better or to do anything else, and my opinion [00:00:35] anyway, is that it should be an urgent care system and it should then be [00:00:40] put into maybe insurance or something like that, which is more realistic, you know, where you get a better standard [00:00:45] of care, because as long as people are not fairly compensated for the hard, hard work they do, [00:00:50] people are always going to find ways to cut corners. And then that person deserves a good standard of care for [00:00:55] what they’re paying is that even though it may not be relatively a lot, but they are still taking what they have, [00:01:00] you know, and giving it to someone and not getting something that actually reflects a good quality [00:01:05] of care.

Speaker2: This [00:01:10] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:01:15] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:01:25] Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Yolanda Fisher [00:01:30] onto the podcast. Yolanda is a dentist in Bristol [00:01:35] who is just a really makes me feel like I want to know more about her. Just just [00:01:40] from just from her profile. Dentists. Do gooder. Bookworm. Businesswoman. Wonderful. [00:01:45] On a mission to thrive, not to survive. Yeah. Um, welcome [00:01:50] onto the pod. Yeah. How are you? You so.

Speaker1: Much. It’s great to be here. [00:01:55]

Speaker3: Um, this pod usually starts with the backstory. Um, where were you [00:02:00] born? What kind of kid were you? All the way to. Why? Why [00:02:05] did you choose dentistry?

Speaker1: My life is a bit convoluted and off the beaten track. [00:02:10] I was born in Cameroon, which is in West Africa. A lot of people are probably very [00:02:15] familiar with Nigeria because there’s lots of Nigerians in the UK. So Cameroon is its more [00:02:20] quiet neighbour. And my family, well, I and [00:02:25] my mother moved over when I was five to London because my mother at the time was studying law at University [00:02:30] College London. So that’s how I ended up in London and she ended up. So that was [00:02:35] actually her. Was it her first graduate degree or her undergraduate? I can’t remember which of the two, but she was ended up [00:02:40] being scouted by the UN and has ever since worked with the UN. And [00:02:45] I stayed in London for early childhood. But with the UN you [00:02:50] have family and non-family posts, so some places where you can take your family with you, some places where you can’t. [00:02:55] And a lot of her early posts were non-family posts. So I lived in London with my aunt, [00:03:00] actually her older sister, while she was in refugee camps and all sorts of things [00:03:05] advocating for refugees. And yes, I was in London for for a few years [00:03:10] until I was about 11.

Speaker3: So your mum was in other countries [00:03:15] for months at a time. And yeah, I see her years at a time. [00:03:20] Yeah. Wow. So how what’s your reflection [00:03:25] on that fact?

Speaker1: Um, I think most people ask me what it’s [00:03:30] like not growing up with my mother in the house. And to be honest, I don’t know any different, so I [00:03:35] can’t I don’t have anything to compare it to. So for me, that was just my standard baseline. [00:03:40] That was my life. So even though she was so far away, she was very present. So it’s not like she would just [00:03:45] went and I she didn’t know what was going on in my life. She still controlled every facet of my life. [00:03:50] You know what schools I went to, what I was doing, whether I went out with this [00:03:55] friend on this night, you know, my aunt would call her all the time, and she had a hand in everything that was [00:04:00] going on in my life, but just not physically present. So I still felt her presence, [00:04:05] but just not physically, I guess. So.

Speaker3: And where was your dad?

Speaker1: It was a different [00:04:10] time with my dad, so by this point my parents were separated, so they divorced when I [00:04:15] before we moved to the UK and my dad was training to be an architect and he his studies took [00:04:20] him to Italy. So he was in Italy at the time and then France. So that’s kind of he stayed on [00:04:25] that Italy France side and my mum ended up in the UK. So [00:04:30] uh, well for a short while.

Speaker3: And were you in the UK for the whole time or did you at all travel [00:04:35] with your mum?

Speaker1: So I was in the UK from five until around 11 or 12, I can’t remember exactly. [00:04:40] And then she got a family post in Kenya and I went to Kenya with her for three years and [00:04:45] that was really fun. I really enjoyed Kenya and when her time there was over, I actually said to her, just leave me here. You [00:04:50] go where you need to go. I’m fine here. I really like the country. It’s such a beautiful country, [00:04:55] beautiful people. I had a great life there and I really. Yeah, I wanted to stay in Kenya, but [00:05:00] obviously she didn’t. She didn’t have any family in Kenya, so she wasn’t comfortable leaving me there. So, [00:05:05] um, she was sent to another non-family post and I went [00:05:10] back to the UK.

Speaker3: Wow. What a what a childhood man. So [00:05:15] then how did. Then street. How did then street come into the equation?

Speaker1: I [00:05:20] had always been good at science. I really enjoyed health care, but I just actually not health care. [00:05:25] I enjoyed the human body and I thought it was fascinating, and my dad was really pushing me to be [00:05:30] a doctor because he thought, you know what? You’ve got the brains, you’ve got the skill, you’ve got the interest. But [00:05:35] I think you have to really look at yourself and look at your personality and what you are passionate. [00:05:40] And I think I felt like being a doctor is a calling. And I just did not have that calling at all. The [00:05:45] amount of work involved for what you get in return, you have to love it. And I [00:05:50] didn’t love it in the slightest bit. I’m not interested in people’s kidneys, their livers. I just don’t want to know, [00:05:55] you know, so I just yeah, I do want to know. So I went to UCL and I did a [00:06:00] degree in biomedical sciences, which obviously is just kind of like a general healthcare degree. And I did the [00:06:05] unaccredited version of the course. So it meant that I could just choose whatever modules I wanted. And I did all sorts of random [00:06:10] things. I did module in Spanish, I did philosophy of the mind, I did neuro neuroanatomy, whatever [00:06:15] I wanted.

Speaker1: At the end of it I thought, actually, dentistry is not bad because here I get [00:06:20] to still be interested in the body, but I can just focus on this one area and not have to deal with [00:06:25] people’s kidneys. That sounds great. And I went and [00:06:30] I spent. So this is when I was still at UCL. So this was my second year and I went to Gower [00:06:35] Street and I found I walked into the first dental practice I could find in Gower Street, asked if I could shadow, and [00:06:40] he was like, yeah, absolutely, really lovely guy, I wish I could remember his name. It was really lovely, man. And [00:06:45] I spent 3 or 4 days shadowing with him and I thought, yeah, this, this looks all right. I think I’ll do this. [00:06:50] And that’s how I got into dentistry. So from then I kind of started to gear [00:06:55] my work experience and my, my final year module. So I did bone physiology and my final [00:07:00] year to kind of support my dental applications and things like that. But I didn’t get in the first time round. [00:07:05]

Speaker3: So yeah, tell me about the process. Then tell me about the applications process [00:07:10] and what that meant to you.

Speaker1: And yeah, it was interesting. I um, because [00:07:15] of my weird upbringing and going back and forth in UK, I still [00:07:20] wasn’t a British citizen, so I was applying as an international student, even though I’d pretty much been [00:07:25] predominantly of my like the larger majority of my life in the UK. So they have specific [00:07:30] number of slots that they allocate international students versus home students, and then they also [00:07:35] assess whether or not they could. They think you can pay the fees. So some of [00:07:40] the universities just rejected me saying that they didn’t think I could pay the international fees, and [00:07:45] which was completely unfair because actually the UN fund a large portion of our [00:07:50] tuition. So that was quite unfair. But regardless, I thought, [00:07:55] never mind, this is not going to break me down. I took a short course in dental nursing, and in my gap year I [00:08:00] worked as a dental nurse for 6 or 7 months.

Speaker3: Wow.

Speaker1: To get like further insight into the [00:08:05] career. So yeah, six seven months I went to the dental nurse. So this was before you had to be registered or anything. I [00:08:10] literally did a two weeks course and I was straight into surgery. Um, and, and that gave me real [00:08:15] insight into like this was the old UDA contract and just the way it just. No sorry, this [00:08:20] is pre UDA because when I was doing my interviews, the UDA contract had just been released [00:08:25] like the draft of it. And I remember thinking, oh, I need to read this whole contract for my interview. And uh, [00:08:30] yeah, it was an interesting time, but I feel like it gave me real insight into what I was getting myself into and [00:08:35] kind of the conditions that people were working in because I was doing. I was working in Hackney [00:08:40] in the like, real belt of NHS work, you know, one in, one out, bash out [00:08:45] as many amalgams as you can in one hour and move them along, you know, so I [00:08:50] feel like I got a real reality. And to be fair, what I saw there [00:08:55] was what more what I was expecting compared to what I actually got when I [00:09:00] graduated. So I was actually a bit of a shock to me to go the other way. Yeah. And what I [00:09:05] experienced in London was not at all what it was like for me graduating, which [00:09:10] was an interesting difference, really.

Speaker3: So did you have more empathy [00:09:15] for the nurse’s role now? Oh yeah.

Speaker1: Absolutely. It’s really what’s the [00:09:20] word? It’s really they don’t get enough praise. Yeah. It’s really hard work [00:09:25] you know, because there’s a lot you don’t know but you’re expected just to understand. Well [00:09:30] maybe that was my perspective because I had done a short course. Yeah. Um, and I picked up quite a lot, but [00:09:35] there’s a lot of pressure and time and you can really make or break the dentist. Absolutely. [00:09:40] How how you work and also the relationship with the dentist is really important. [00:09:45] Unfortunately, the dentist I work for wasn’t the kindest, and he used to call me stupid in front of patients and [00:09:50] throw things at me. Yeah, just really horrendous man. I’ve always made it a point [00:09:55] to be just really patient and kind and kind of understanding with people because you don’t know what they’re coming with. And [00:10:00] I understand that. Obviously you want to do your best for your patient as a dentist, but also they are doing their [00:10:05] best. If they’re not meeting your standard, it’s not because for the large majority, it’s not because they’re not [00:10:10] doing their best. And you just need to have patience with people. So yeah it was horrendous man. [00:10:15] But you know made it out the other side.

Speaker3: It’s that sort of hierarchy. Key situation [00:10:20] that exists in dental practices generally. Right? You know, you’ve got the principal right at [00:10:25] the top of the tree and then it’s a nurse, isn’t it? It’s a junior nurse who’s at the bottom [00:10:30] of that tree and, and that sort of abuse that you’re talking about. [00:10:35] You can you can imagine even if it’s not verbal, there’s so much [00:10:40] of it, so much of it’s a mental abuse. Yeah. That I [00:10:45] think it’s human nature. Right. When one, when one person’s in charge of another, they can do that. [00:10:50] It’s a risk of it. But are you now so, so aware of that, that you’re, you’re [00:10:55] giving your, your team the best life possible? Like give me give me some more insight about it. Um. [00:11:00]

Speaker1: I try to be as patient as I can, and I [00:11:05] feel like I think most nurses say that they like to work with me just because I, like I said, because [00:11:10] I’ve been on the other side. I know what it’s like, for example, for a locum nurse coming into scenario and you just [00:11:15] don’t know what this person’s going to be like if you do one thing wrong, whether or not they’re just going [00:11:20] to have an absolute go at you if you hand them the wrong bond or something that you [00:11:25] have no chance of knowing. So I try to take my time and teach people things, [00:11:30] and that’s the other thing making them feel comfortable to ask questions. And yeah, ask [00:11:35] me what’s going on. Ask me what you’re doing. What would you like, Lex? Because there’s a lot of I hear a lot of nurses say that they [00:11:40] they they have a lot of dentists who won’t let them speak, essentially, you know, like they [00:11:45] are there just to service their needs. But they’re not actually people, you know, and I think, as [00:11:50] you said, with the hierarchy, it’s so easy to forget that these are people and they are here as well [00:11:55] for them, like I said, doing their best and coming to work to do their best. And if [00:12:00] you treat them with respect, they give you the same respect back. Really, they’re not your lackeys.

Speaker3: Essentially, [00:12:05] I noticed you wrote a piece on mental health in dentistry. Yeah. [00:12:10] About what? Was it, a year and a half ago or something? Yeah. And, you know, we’re [00:12:15] doing this mental health podcast as well about stress and all that and, you know, try and figure out what is it about [00:12:20] dentistry that causes so much stress. You know, why dentistry. Why not? You know, [00:12:25] um, brain surgeons, um, you know why. You know, okay. It’s [00:12:30] a it’s a pressure job. But I think part of that is to do with [00:12:35] the one room you, you and the nurse. Um, and [00:12:40] and of course, there’s many other things. There’s the live patient. Yeah. That, you know, I’ve [00:12:45] got a cousin who’s an eye surgeon, and he says the operations he does on local just [00:12:50] tire him out three times as much as the ones he does in general because of because of [00:12:55] the live patient, you know.

Speaker1: Yeah, the intensity of it.

Speaker3: The intensity. But but also [00:13:00] let’s imagine, you know, we know when, when, when things go wrong mental health wise, [00:13:05] it tends to be like concentric circles, like perfect storm of things going wrong. [00:13:10] And we see it in dentistry as well, don’t we. Like patient doesn’t quite open his mouth. [00:13:15] He’s nervous. Maybe you’ve got the wrong, wrong material [00:13:20] that day. Maybe it’s a locum nurse and the things come together for this perfect [00:13:25] storm. Um, but as far as mental health, perfect storm goes, you know, the relationship [00:13:30] between you and your nurse is massive.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: And, yeah, it’s so huge. [00:13:35] And for now, we’ve been talking about these tyrant dentists. But it doesn’t even have [00:13:40] to be that. It could be. You know, just the quality of that relationship can set, you [00:13:45] know, the rest of your life in or out of sync completely.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:13:50] I’ve had unfortunately, a scenario where I haven’t gotten on with a nurse, which I thought, you [00:13:55] know, I thought it would never happen to me. And I was like, you know, I’m always going to be on the nurses side. It’s not [00:14:00] going to happen to me. Yeah, but it happened to me. And for me, it was more the fact that, um, [00:14:05] we didn’t have the same work ethic, you know, and not to say that I’m [00:14:10] the hardest working person in the world, there’s definitely more hard, but I feel like if you go here, you’ve got a job to do and [00:14:15] you need to do it, you know, and when somebody isn’t meeting me there, and I have been [00:14:20] patient and I have, you know, explained things and I have, you know, been like, you know, let me [00:14:25] show you how to do this. Let me help you improve. But they just have no desire to improve. And [00:14:30] as a consequence of them having no desire to improve my life is terrible. Yeah, I found that challenging. [00:14:35] And I think that was the most difficult relationship I’ve had with a dental nurse. [00:14:40] And that really made work a really uncomfortable environment [00:14:45] for me because like I said, I guess you almost get an image of yourself. I try to present [00:14:50] myself as the one who’s always good with nurses and who always kind of like is on is [00:14:55] for them, you know, and encouraging them and being like, you can do this, you can do whatever you want. And, [00:15:00] um, that one took a peg off my self image, I guess. [00:15:05] But to just made the whole working relationship really frosty. Yeah. [00:15:10] And uncomfortable when you don’t get along with them because it really does make or break your day. How you because it’s someone [00:15:15] you’re sat in a room with all day long.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker1: And and. And it kind [00:15:20] of wears you down mentally and emotionally. Absolutely.

Speaker3: I think it’s something that’s not talked enough about [00:15:25] enough. You know, I don’t I don’t remember any any teaching on it at all. I mean, no, [00:15:30] um, I studied in Cardiff. We had this thing, um, it [00:15:35] was it was like a close support nursing kind of four handed, four handed dentistry thing. Oh, [00:15:40] yeah. Um, but again, it had nothing to do with the, you know, the relationship between [00:15:45] you and you and the nurse and I, but I went to my job, my first job, [00:15:50] and I’d only done four handed dentistry for maybe three years before [00:15:55] because it turned out we were friends with the nurses who were taking care of that bit of the clinic. Yeah. And, um, so [00:16:00] I just sat down in my job and I just put my hands out, as you do with [00:16:05] four handed. And she just looked at me. She just she just looked at me. She said, what are you doing? [00:16:10] Yeah. Like, what’s this mean? Yeah. And I was like, you know, there’s a patient here. I was I was like looking [00:16:15] at her like as if give me the instruments. Right. You know, like that mirror and probe. That’s what that meant, right. Mirror and probe. [00:16:20] Yeah. And the patient left, and I said to her, well, what’s going on? How come you put the instruments [00:16:25] on this side? They should be on that side and bloody up my mic. And she got up. This [00:16:30] was the first nurse, first patient of it. She got up, she went to the boss and she quit her [00:16:35] job there and they’re no. Yeah. And and it turned out [00:16:40] like obviously the boss wasn’t happy. He came over to me. He said, what the hell did you do like for spaceship. [00:16:45] Yeah. But it turned out there was a history. You know, there was there was a history. And then she [00:16:50] came back and all that. He was sure.

Speaker1: That broke the camel’s back.

Speaker3: Yeah, [00:16:55] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing I’m interested in, the question I want to ask you, you said your PSC, you did all these cool [00:17:00] subjects like psychology or philosophy or whatever. I didn’t quite remember. But what did they give [00:17:05] you? Did did they give you something that the rest of us didn’t get that they would have [00:17:10] right?

Speaker1: To be honest, I don’t particularly believe so. No, I was just no, [00:17:15] I to be honest, I don’t particularly believe so because I did philosophy of the mind, which [00:17:20] is a lot of Rene Descartes. I think therefore I am type thing, and I can’t [00:17:25] think of a single instance where that has benefited me since, if [00:17:30] I’m completely honest. It’s funny you should say that.

Speaker3: It’s funny you say that because my previous guest [00:17:35] on this pod, it hasn’t come out yet. But Chris Tavares, he he based on [00:17:40] Descartes, he he stopped practising dentistry. Oh, really? And [00:17:45] for six years he went. He became like a Jesuit monk. Wow. [00:17:50]

Speaker1: So we had completely lost track of this whole thing.

Speaker3: He got [00:17:55] more out of it than you.

Speaker1: I got nothing from it at all. Like, [00:18:00] sorry, Descartes was not. Yeah, it was not for me. I think a lot of it. I found it, [00:18:05] too. Mind bending.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: And too many.

Speaker3: Words.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:18:10] And I didn’t get this. I know a lot of. I remember when I started the course, they said half of you [00:18:15] will start this and think you know who you are. And by the end of it you’ll have no idea. And [00:18:20] I just remember leaving thinking, I have no idea what I’ve learned this whole time. And [00:18:25] the it was. But it was an interesting reading list. And, you know, I can [00:18:30] say that I learn about these interesting philosophers, but I haven’t thought about them since. [00:18:35] So the one I really did particularly enjoy was space medicine and extreme environment [00:18:40] physiology. Wow. Which was really good. And they get lectures from NASA [00:18:45] to come over. So it’s the only course in the UK that’s doing this. So they receive students [00:18:50] from other universities just to come and do this course at UCL. And that was really [00:18:55] interesting.

Speaker3: So so was that was there space dentistry as well?

Speaker1: Space toothbrushing there [00:19:00] wasn’t space dentistry actually, but I liked the bone physiology element of it because we [00:19:05] learned about what happened to the bone in space and as well as the whole body and not just space, [00:19:10] obviously. Extreme environment. So extreme cold, extreme heat, high altitude, deep sea. And it [00:19:15] was really, really interesting, fascinating, um, module to do. So I think that but that’s more like a party trick for me. [00:19:20] I start pulling out facts. You know, but in terms [00:19:25] of like my career and life, no, I just enjoyed my time at UCL. It’s a lovely university. So. [00:19:30]

Speaker3: So then you eventually got into dental school?

Speaker1: It did? Yes.

Speaker3: At the [00:19:35] Royal London.

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker3: Tell me, what were you like as a dental student?

Speaker1: I [00:19:40] was overwhelmed, if I’m completely honest. We all were.

Speaker3: We all were.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:19:45] I feel like there are people who who took it better than I did. Because undergraduate [00:19:50] for at UCL, it was an absolute walk in the park, [00:19:55] completely compared to dentistry. I think in my second year I had a summer holiday that was about four months [00:20:00] long. Wow. I and I went to America and I remember thinking, because this is when again, my parents were still [00:20:05] working for the UN and at this point they were based in New York. So I went to America for the summer, and I remember thinking, [00:20:10] I’m sure I’ve been here more than I’ve been at university. And, um, so I had really [00:20:15] long holidays. I used to have maybe 810. Hours of lectures a week [00:20:20] and the rest of self-directed study. So I was very self-motivated, but at the same time it was [00:20:25] not intense in the slightest. And coming to dentistry was an absolute shock to my [00:20:30] system. And I was like, what is this? I thought I had done university, I had not done university at all. So [00:20:35] I found that quite overwhelming. And I had quite an active social life [00:20:40] at UCL, but I felt like I was drowning in dentistry, so I just completely just stopped having [00:20:45] social life. I just felt like I had to study, study, study, study and, you know, above [00:20:50] average intelligence. But I’m not the most intelligent. So I just have to work hard essentially to get the [00:20:55] same place as other people do. And yeah, I was just constantly studying, [00:21:00] didn’t have a life. I was really overwhelmed. And I realised now I didn’t really have great study techniques as well because that’s another [00:21:05] thing that’s not really taught. I think study techniques are really important, but I really had nobody, [00:21:10] even though both my parents had gone to university. My dad has got PhD, nobody [00:21:15] taught me study techniques. And I realised and I look back now, I had really terrible study techniques, [00:21:20] just a lot of rote repetition, you know, reading, rewriting that was just not getting me anywhere [00:21:25] and just was based on loads of man hours. So I just yeah, [00:21:30] I spent most of Dental school feeling overwhelmed.

Speaker3: And which which aspect particularly overwhelmed [00:21:35] you? Was it the preclinical or clinical or both?

Speaker1: I think a bit of both, because [00:21:40] if you’re either reading a book or you’re doing it practically. So it’s not like a lot of other [00:21:45] courses where you can just learn the theory. It’s just like you have to do the theory, but you actually have to physically do it as [00:21:50] well. So there’s an added element that a lot of people just don’t grasp unless you have a practical, [00:21:55] unless you do a practical course like dentistry or obviously skills like carpentry and things like that, where you have [00:22:00] to physically do the thing. So it’s very akin to that. But I feel like the intensity [00:22:05] of what we learn on the theory side makes it harder as well, with the [00:22:10] additional high, detailed, physic like physical skill that you need as well.

Speaker3: Yeah. Of [00:22:15] course. And then so you okay. You I mean, I think as a, as [00:22:20] a graduate student, you’re in a way sort of more mature anyway, right? Yeah. You [00:22:25] know, we got into dental school 18 like a total child. Total child. And [00:22:30] um, I remember there were a couple of graduates on my, in my year and they were I felt [00:22:35] like they, they were studying more, more in an adult way as well. I’d never thought they were being [00:22:40] over, over, over. Maybe they were. Yeah. But okay. So so out [00:22:45] of dental school, how clear were you about what kind of dentist you wanted to be?

Speaker1: And because [00:22:50] of my experience working as a dental nurse, I thought I would just be an NHS dentist. I’m [00:22:55] very much, as I said on my profile, a do gooder. I’m all about doing good for people and [00:23:00] serving people, and I thought I would be the kind of dentist who just goes out there and meets [00:23:05] the needs of the people. So I just had a vision of working on the NHS for the entirety of my career. [00:23:10] But the difference of working is it dental nurse versus [00:23:15] when I actually started working, is that they just don’t actually meet up with. [00:23:20] The reality of serving the people well, is what I found in my experience of NHS dentistry. [00:23:25] My first year was obviously and I did that in Southampton and that was fine [00:23:30] because, you know, you don’t really have targets, you don’t really have goals. You’re just trying to like be surefooted [00:23:35] clinically and get comfortable with the environment. But my first year [00:23:40] post vet, I worked for a corporate which I won’t name the name, but it was not [00:23:45] a great experience and they had ridiculous targets, really ridiculous pressures. If I didn’t [00:23:50] do a band three on every child that came through my surgery, I got called in to the clinical, [00:23:55] the area manager’s office. Wow. They were giving me daily targets to refer [00:24:00] to the hygienist privately in a very NHS area. And I just thought, I [00:24:05] can’t force these people. They don’t have the money to do that, you know, and they’re entitled to this treatment on the NHS. [00:24:10] So this is not something I’m comfortable doing. So I was there to just meet the needs and I was put given [00:24:15] all these targets and expectations, which I thought were unethical. And I found it, I [00:24:20] found I really struggled there.

Speaker3: What year was that?

Speaker1: That was in 2012. [00:24:25]

Speaker3: Yeah. I think, you know, the corporates back then [00:24:30] were really clueless.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: A very different now by the way, [00:24:35] very different. Now, I know I come across people who on purpose leave independent [00:24:40] practices and go to corporates, okay. Because they know what they’re going to get. You know, at [00:24:45] least with the corporate, you know, what you’re going to get. You can you can talk to other other people [00:24:50] in the corporate. And the other thing they’ve realised is losing a dentist is the most expensive thing that can happen [00:24:55] to a dental practice. And, you know, in the end, their businesses. It’s surprising [00:25:00] because I’ve heard so many terrible stories about corporates from back [00:25:05] in that time, you know, um, go on. What happened next?

Speaker1: So [00:25:10] I did that for just under a year. So I was the dentist who stayed the longest, as you said, [00:25:15] can’t keep losing dentists for a practice is very expensive. And I didn’t read the contract thoroughly, and I actually had [00:25:20] a leaving clause in there. If I left in less than a year, they took a few thousand from me, and [00:25:25] that’s exactly what they did. But at that point I was just beyond done. So I just thought, [00:25:30] take the money, I’m going to go. So I worked, moved on to an independent mixed practice, and [00:25:35] I was there for, you know, in Portsmouth. So I’d stayed in the area where I did my best. So [00:25:40] I worked there for a few years and yeah, I was that was fine. That was more what I was expecting. [00:25:45] I was there to just to meet the need and, you know, serve the people. And yeah, I had a good time [00:25:50] there and I really grew clinically. I think I left that role in the end just because I didn’t want to [00:25:55] be in Portsmouth anymore. And I wanted to move back to London.

Speaker1: Yeah. So eventually I moved back to London. [00:26:00] I worked in a lovely practice just outside of London, but then I found myself quite isolated because [00:26:05] by that point a lot of my friends had moved out of London. A lot of my family had moved out of London. So [00:26:10] I just thought, I don’t know what I’m doing here. And London is such a big city. It’s very hard to feel lonely. It’s very easy. [00:26:15] Sorry to to to get lonely there. And I my, like I said, because my family is so international. [00:26:20] My brothers had emigrated to America, my cousin emigrated to America. Everyone’s just all over the place. [00:26:25] So I felt quite isolated. So I decided to leave London again. And this time I went to Leeds because [00:26:30] I had a good one of my best friends from um, university, from my first degree actually, [00:26:35] who also ended up being a dentist. I convinced her to do dentistry. I told her that she’s away and [00:26:40] she ended up being a dentist, and her boyfriend ended up being a dentist as well.

Speaker4: How funny.

Speaker1: So [00:26:45] she said, Come to Leeds. It’s, you know, the pastures are green here. And so I [00:26:50] went to Leeds and I. And just as I went to Leeds, I started dating my husband [00:26:55] who I’d met in Portsmouth.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker1: So the timing was terrible. So we did the long [00:27:00] distance thing for a year and a bit and we thought, actually, this is not great long [00:27:05] terme. So I decided to move back to Portsmouth just because I already had friends there. He’d been there for a long time, [00:27:10] so I found myself back in Portsmouth.

Speaker3: So you didn’t actually go to Leeds?

Speaker1: I did, so I lived [00:27:15] in Leeds for a year and we did long.

Speaker4: Distance for one year.

Speaker1: And then yeah, he toyed with moving to [00:27:20] Leeds, but it made more sense for me to move back to Portsmouth because I already had a life there as well.

Speaker3: Is he a dentist [00:27:25] too?

Speaker1: He’s not. No, he is a recruitment consultant. And does property investing.

Speaker4: Okay okay [00:27:30] okay.

Speaker1: So then so then I ended up back in Portsmouth. I [00:27:35] worked went back to the the previous NHS practice that I was at. So we had a really good relationship. [00:27:40] I told him I was coming back and he said please come back. So I said okay and I went [00:27:45] back to that job. At the same time, I also decided to apply for a private job. So I started my first [00:27:50] private role part time and the loveliest little practice in Portsmouth. And [00:27:55] um, that was a really interesting position because six months after joining, the principal actually had a stroke, unfortunately. [00:28:00] Well, and it was run, it was, uh, just a two surgery practice. The principal, [00:28:05] his wife was the practice manager and an associate, and he had a stroke. So it became [00:28:10] completely associate led for about two years. So it was predominantly me. And then they hired another [00:28:15] associate just to help them keep it going until they sold it. Unfortunately, he couldn’t go back to work, [00:28:20] so but I had a yeah, a really nice relationship with them and they were really lovely team and [00:28:25] practice to work in.

Speaker3: So this thing you were saying about working in the NHS and [00:28:30] the judging part of that, by this time you’ve gotten over that notion.

Speaker1: I [00:28:35] had I still wanted to do good, but I realised I couldn’t do the good I wanted to do on the NHS. Unfortunately, [00:28:40] because your hands are tied in many aspects and [00:28:45] I didn’t want my hands to be tied, I wanted to offer the people what I thought was [00:28:50] the best and what I thought would be in their best interest, and not be worried about [00:28:55] limitations that the NHS puts on you essentially.

Speaker4: I mean.

Speaker3: Look, this question comes [00:29:00] up. We we had an episode on here called leaving the NHS and it was [00:29:05] the third most listened to episode. Oh really that we’ve done and [00:29:10] we’ve done, you know, 220 episodes. Right. Wow. And it wasn’t [00:29:15] you know, it’s not like the information in it was so amazing that people were passing it to each other. I don’t [00:29:20] think it’s just like it’s just such a hot topic. Right. Leaving the area and, and and you know, what [00:29:25] stops you from leaving the NHS and what you should think of this question that you’re bringing up, sort of the guilt [00:29:30] of leaving the NHS sort of thing. And am I doing good or [00:29:35] not? I think we need a sort of a frank conversation about that. What you just [00:29:40] said about, you know, you want to do good in the correct way without a third party [00:29:45] telling you what to do. Or, you know, I fully understand that. But I think also we [00:29:50] need to be clear that, you know, rich man’s toothache is just as painful [00:29:55] as a poor man’s toothache. Yeah. And then and then you can say, well, okay, [00:30:00] but the rich man’s got resources. He’ll find someone. I want to be there. I want to be there for the poor man. [00:30:05] Okay, good. You want to be there for the poor man? Go do your mum’s work. Yeah. [00:30:10] You know, your poorest patient is probably still in the top 2% of the world’s [00:30:15] sort of, you know.

Speaker4: Chloe. Yeah.

Speaker3: So, you know, I [00:30:20] think there’s a lot of sort of fooling ourselves about this question of, you know, [00:30:25] I don’t think we need to worry ourselves too much with guilt of leaving the NHS. [00:30:30] You know, you want to be the best dentist you can be for the community that you can serve, whoever [00:30:35] that community is. That community could be a 100 billionaires or it could be [00:30:40] whatever you. Everyone needs a dentist.

Speaker4: Yeah, [00:30:45] I don’t have.

Speaker1: I don’t feel guilty about leaving the NHS at all. I think that as [00:30:50] a system, the the faster people leave it, the faster it will get restructured. Because I [00:30:55] don’t think it’s a functioning system. Personally, I think we should just all rebel against it because [00:31:00] it doesn’t serve people at all. It keeps people in ongoing [00:31:05] maintenance that’s not actually adequate for ideal dental health, you know. So [00:31:10] I’m in favour of this whole system being restructured. And I understand that absolutely. [00:31:15] People out there who just do not have the funds to do any better.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Or to do anything else. [00:31:20] And my opinion anyway, is that it should be an urgent care system and it should [00:31:25] then be put into maybe insurance or something like that, which is more realistic, you know, [00:31:30] where you get a better standard of care, because as long as people are not fairly compensated for the [00:31:35] hard, hard work they do, people are always going to find ways to cut corners. And then that person deserves [00:31:40] a good standard of care for what they’re paying is that even though it may not be relatively a lot, but they are still [00:31:45] taking what they have, you know, and giving it to someone and not getting something that actually reflects [00:31:50] a good quality of care.

Speaker4: Mm hmm.

Speaker1: So I think [00:31:55] that, yeah, the whole system needs to be just broken down and redone, and I [00:32:00] feel like the faster people leave it and rebel against it, the faster it would happen. How long has the talk have been [00:32:05] about, you know, redoing the contract? Is it still even been talked about? I don’t know. I stopped [00:32:10] listening.

Speaker3: But you’re right, because the funny thing, when I was a vet in 1996, [00:32:15] my my boss, my boss was talking about let’s go [00:32:20] private first so that when the whole thing falls apart, we’re already private. And [00:32:25] you know, we can be the best private practice. And, you know, we we take it for granted that it would have fallen apart back [00:32:30] then, back then. And the conversations are still going on.

Speaker4: You’re going. Yeah. [00:32:35]

Speaker3: It’s mad. It’s mad. So. Okay, so. But you now live in Bristol. So how [00:32:40] did the story go from Portsmouth to Bristol?

Speaker1: So we lived in Portsmouth for a while. We got married, [00:32:45] we got pregnant and then the pandemic hit.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker1: And um, even [00:32:50] though we had both spent some time in Portsmouth and had built a life there, we didn’t have any family [00:32:55] there. And with a young child you realise that actually family is valuable, especially when you’re [00:33:00] hit with such a life changing thing. When you’re isolated and you become [00:33:05] more aware of the value of family and relationships and things like that. And because my family is so [00:33:10] widely dispersed, we leant towards going to where his family is. And he has a [00:33:15] sister in Bristol who has children the same age. So we thought that would be nice. And I grew [00:33:20] up in London with my cousins for a lot of my childhood, and I thought, it’s really nice to have cousins, and they [00:33:25] liked my siblings, so I thought I’d really like my children to grow up with their cousins and have them feel [00:33:30] like they’re siblings. So that’s how we ended up in Bristol. So we followed my sister in law. So she lives here. She’s a nurse [00:33:35] in the NHS. Good for her. And she’s, you know, fighting the good fight and the nursing side and [00:33:40] um, yeah. So her two children are similar ages so. Well, one [00:33:45] slightly older and her second is the same age as my first. So.

Speaker3: So you were actually pregnant during [00:33:50] Covid?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: So I gave birth. So I was due to [00:33:55] have my baby shower the day that the stay at home orders were given and [00:34:00] I went on maternity leave a month early. So I was meant to start my maternity leave in April, [00:34:05] and I had to start in March. Um, because of. Yeah, because I was so far along [00:34:10] and they just thought, actually, it’s better if you just go home. So that’s what I did. And it’s really funny because my dad is a big [00:34:15] conspiracy theorist. And since from like.

Speaker4: December, take the.

Speaker3: Vaccine and you couldn’t [00:34:20] know.

Speaker1: From December 2019, he was telling me to stay at home.

Speaker4: Oh, really?

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:34:25] And because he’s such a conspiracy theorist, he’s always coming up with something. I just thought, no, no, no, dad, this is another [00:34:30] one of yours. And consistently from December, he’s like, no, you’re pregnant. You’re in a really high risk career. [00:34:35] You need to stay at home, stay at home, stay at home. Every week he would call me and say, you need to go home. And then in [00:34:40] March, I was like, oh yeah, you’re right, I need to go home. So he felt quite vindicated. But of [00:34:45] course he didn’t take the vaccine.

Speaker4: So did you. You. I did yeah.

Speaker3: I thought I thought pregnant women couldn’t [00:34:50] take it. No.

Speaker1: After I had the baby.

Speaker3: Aha. Yeah. So he actually turned out to be [00:34:55] right about the vaccine.

Speaker4: Anyway, [00:35:00] don’t tell him this.

Speaker3: It’s funny. Conspiracy theory is a [00:35:05] funny thing. Yeah, because you’ll find if you come from unstable places where real conspiracies happen. [00:35:10] Yeah. Then then you realise that. That you know what? What can [00:35:15] go down due to conspiracy and. You know, I’m not sure exactly about Cameroon, but [00:35:20] but West Africa in general, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of, uh, you know, conspiracies, [00:35:25] right.

Speaker4: There are there’s a lot going on.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: What happens is you, [00:35:30] you if you really look into it, there are conspiracies here too. They’re just much more. They’re just [00:35:35] much more sort of ingrained in the system. They’re much more difficult to unravel. It’s not [00:35:40] like one guy taking one amount, putting, you know, state funds straight into his bank account [00:35:45] a bit more. It’s a bit more complicated than that.

Speaker4: Yeah, but.

Speaker1: The Cayman Islands first. [00:35:50] Yeah.

Speaker3: Exactly, exactly. So all right, so you [00:35:55] became you went to Bristol, you found a job. What kind of job?

Speaker1: Yeah. So I’m in a private practice. I [00:36:00] actually worked just outside Bristol. I work in street, so it’s about an hour commute. So I [00:36:05] it’s a two hour round trip, which is not too bad. I work part time so it’s two and a half days, so I find [00:36:10] it manageable. Although my principal, he lives not too far from me and he does it every day, so [00:36:15] it’s doable. And yeah, it’s a really lovely family practice. I think he’s owned [00:36:20] it for 15 years or so around that period. And it’s [00:36:25] yeah, completely private and really nice. We’ve got a small NHS contract and [00:36:30] see plan patients as well.

Speaker3: I, I talk to mothers [00:36:35] on this pod who are dentists and when they’re talking about their lives [00:36:40] and their days, it’s the thing that they call sort of me time [00:36:45] is, is like, I don’t know, it’s like sorting out the kids calendar or [00:36:50] something on the tube or anything. The juggle, the juggle, man, [00:36:55] the juggle. Tell me about the juggle. Because because it must be a big juggle. How many days a week are you a dentist?

Speaker1: So [00:37:00] I’m a dentist. Two and a half days and I’m always on a course. So yeah. [00:37:05] Um, I’m currently doing the Simply Endo ten day course, um, [00:37:10] aiming to do the PG cert and hopefully through to MSC. Last [00:37:15] year I did the cath tactics. Um, and [00:37:20] also I haven’t finished that because I was actually pregnant while I was doing that, and I had to leave towards [00:37:25] the end to have my baby. So I need to I still, I need to hand in the cases and finish that one. [00:37:30] But yeah, the juggle is. Depending on the support. So [00:37:35] I can completely say that I could not do this unless my husband was as supportive [00:37:40] as he is. And I’m very fortunate in that he’s very supportive. It helps that he works from home, so [00:37:45] he’s the one who does the nursery jobs. Most of the nursery drop offs, pick ups, if [00:37:50] they get sick, he’s the one who goes in, you know? So a lot of things like that falls to [00:37:55] him, especially since I’m so far away when I am at work and he is at home. So a lot [00:38:00] falls to him and I’m really lucky for his support. And in all of that, even tonight, [00:38:05] he was the one who was mainly putting the kids to bed so that I could get ready for this. So I [00:38:10] think the juggle is made easier or harder by the support system that you have around you. Really. [00:38:15] Um.

Speaker3: But, but, but you know, we I’ve been talking to several people like this. What gives? [00:38:20] Because, you know, work often doesn’t give. You end up, you [00:38:25] end up. It’s not it’s not like you can you’re gonna suddenly call up on a Wednesday morning and say, I’m not coming in for my [00:38:30] patients. That’s just not going to happen.

Speaker4: No.

Speaker3: And and I look, obviously I don’t know you [00:38:35] very well. I know you from your sort of persona, online persona. Right. But you seem to be [00:38:40] sort of on this journey of sort of self-improvement, um, reading [00:38:45] sports, you know, looks, looks like, looks like you’re [00:38:50] taking care of that sort of side of things as well. Can you have it all in, in dentistry [00:38:55] as a woman mother?

Speaker1: I think you can have it all, but not at the same time.

Speaker4: Good. [00:39:00]

Speaker1: That’s absolute reality. So it’s really interesting. You say you look at my persona and it looks like [00:39:05] I’ve got it kind of like I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’m not doing them all at the same time. And that’s the absolute [00:39:10] reality. So last year, like I said, I had a baby. She’s now nine months and [00:39:15] last year was what I call survival mode. And as much [00:39:20] as I was, I was very silly to do that pgcert while I was pregnant because I was actually exhausted. [00:39:25] Half of it went in and out of my ear because I was too tired. And [00:39:30] you know that always there’s not everything that you can do at once. So [00:39:35] at that time, I was focussed on focusing on, you know, having a healthy pregnancy whilst [00:39:40] trying to maintain my career. But things that let up, for example, was home organisation, [00:39:45] like I just did not have the time or energy to declutter and sort my [00:39:50] children’s toys out or you know, even book them loads of activities and [00:39:55] deal with meals. So I I’m not ashamed to say I don’t like cooking, so I order meals [00:40:00] in for them, like freshly cooked meals, and I just put them in the freezer and that’s what they eat, because I’m just not [00:40:05] the mum who’s going to be at home cooking home cooked meals. That’s just not realistic for my life. When I come home from work [00:40:10] and I start to study.

Speaker1: So something you just have to choose [00:40:15] what it is you’re going to focus your energy on. And for me, as long as I had some quality time with [00:40:20] my children, some quality time with my husband, and was able to [00:40:25] move forward in one of my goals, then that was enough for me. So most of my time, that [00:40:30] one goal that I’m always trying to move forward in is dentistry because there’s always so much to learn. But yeah, things always [00:40:35] give. Like last year, it was definitely self-care and this year I’m trying to have more self-care. I’m trying to [00:40:40] look more at how I eat and how I move my body. Because I started to have aches and pains. [00:40:45] I’m ageing, my knee gives in sometimes and you know, things like that. I need [00:40:50] to start taking care of my body and start exercising and stretching, starting going for massages and things like that. [00:40:55] So I think women can absolutely do everything, but you’ve got to choose what you want [00:41:00] to do, when and what and prioritise according to the time and time scale. Essentially, [00:41:05] I think that’s the most important thing is choosing appropriately and [00:41:10] thinking about timescales, really. And I think back now, there’s so many things that I wish I’d done different [00:41:15] way around. But, you know, hindsight is a great gift.

Speaker3: Like what? Like what? Like what?

Speaker1: I [00:41:20] think I wish I’d focussed more on my studies before I had children. So because I spent [00:41:25] so much time in my BSc, then dentistry when I graduated, [00:41:30] I just spent a lot of time just working and not really thinking where I wanted to go with my career. I [00:41:35] was just working, and actually that would have been the prime time to focus and get my career [00:41:40] where I wanted to be and then have a family. But now I just spent all those years just kind [00:41:45] of like floating about in dentistry, not really knowing where I wanted to go with it. And that’s like I said, partly that’s because I [00:41:50] just thought I’d be churning it out in the NHS for the foreseeable future. And then I realised, actually, this is [00:41:55] not fulfilling for me. It’s not what I want to do. I want to maybe achieve X, Y and Z and [00:42:00] now I’m saddled, not saddled. But now I have the extra responsibilities of two children [00:42:05] and a marriage to maintain and ageing happening to me very slowly. And [00:42:10] it’s just harder. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder, you know? So if [00:42:15] anything, I wish I had done all those things before I had all these additional responsibilities. But, you know, you don’t know what you [00:42:20] don’t know. I didn’t know that this is how I’d feel at this point in my career.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. Especially as, [00:42:25] you know, um, the reason why you want the education is because the other situation wasn’t fulfilling, [00:42:30] and you wouldn’t have known that until you got to that point.

Speaker4: That’s true. Yeah.

Speaker3: I [00:42:35] think not enough people tell you. Maybe it was just me. I know, but the second kid [00:42:40] really messed this stuff up at home.

Speaker4: It really does.

Speaker3: Because you think you’ve had a kid. You’ve had [00:42:45] one kid. You know what kid is? Yeah, yeah, but no one really tells you that. The first kid [00:42:50] kind of. It almost becomes a plus one on the couple. Kind of the couple continue doing [00:42:55] this stuff they used to do. But there’s a kid. Yeah, but the second kid sort of completely [00:43:00] throws that in the air, I find. Really?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: It was just a really [00:43:05] hard adjustment for both of us, really. Probably my husband [00:43:10] more than me because he said, I think a couple times he said it. I guess it’s too late to not do this, isn’t it? [00:43:15]

Speaker4: Funny.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:43:20] We’re here now. Uh, I think we’ve just just moving past that point where it’s absolute [00:43:25] torture to kind of like finding our feet, but it’s still just grinding, [00:43:30] like it really is grinding. And there’s absolutely some people who have the gift of, like, dealing with [00:43:35] multiple children. I am not one of those people. So it’s really hard work for me. [00:43:40]

Speaker4: I think it’s.

Speaker3: Really hard for everyone, though. I think it’s really hard for everyone. It’s it’s not talked about enough, you know, [00:43:45] because look, I see this picture behind you here of you and your son. [00:43:50] Is it. Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: My son.

Speaker3: That’s that’s the image that that that sort [00:43:55] of gets put out about motherhood. It absolutely. Staring, staring into the, [00:44:00] the, the waves or whatever it is holding arm and arm and, um, [00:44:05] the, you know, I think until they figured out how to put their own socks on, you’re in trouble. [00:44:10]

Speaker4: That’s even beyond that. He can put his socks. [00:44:15]

Speaker1: On, but he just.

Speaker4: Won’t stop. Perfect.

Speaker1: It’s an endless [00:44:20] battle. It’s an. And even with, like, with the studying, like I say, I’ll come home from work and I’ll study. And actually, I [00:44:25] find that I find it easier to study on the days that I’ve been at work.

Speaker4: Mhm.

Speaker1: Work is like [00:44:30] restful for me now.

Speaker3: I’ve heard that so many times from others.

Speaker1: It really is on the days that I’m [00:44:35] at home, by the end of the day, I literally have nothing left to study. There’s nothing left. I have [00:44:40] to squeeze all my studying in on the three days that I’m at work, because that’s the only [00:44:45] time when I come home and I feel like I still have some energy because they really just suck it all out of you, [00:44:50] like in the most loving way.

Speaker3: But you know, not everyone who does a course ends up doing all [00:44:55] the reading and all the studying and all that. So. You know, are you are you that person? Are you that [00:45:00] person who’s going to read around the subject 13 times?

Speaker1: I just, like I said, I [00:45:05] just have to work harder than everybody else.

Speaker4: So that’s just my.

Speaker1: Reality and [00:45:10] I’m still improving my study techniques. I’m actually also doing a course on studying, like better studying [00:45:15] because, you know, you can always improve. There’s always better ways to do things. So. [00:45:20] But I think I just like to study I like to learn. My husband’s always saying, this is going to be the last [00:45:25] course you’re going to do. Right? And I’m always like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like six months later I found another one.

Speaker3: So why is that? [00:45:30] Why is that?

Speaker1: I like the knowledge. I think it’s I find interest. And to be fair, [00:45:35] admittedly I think I’m not implementing all of it. So actually one of my 2024 [00:45:40] things is use what I’ve learned because there’s so much, you know, we all go an endless number of courses [00:45:45] and we don’t actually implement a lot of them. So I have all this knowledge, but it’s not being used. [00:45:50] I don’t feel comfortable or confident or, you know, don’t know how to talk about it to [00:45:55] patients. And I just think, actually, I’ve invested all this time and energy and money and hours in the evening [00:46:00] studying. I should actually there are people out there who would appreciate this. I need to go out there and do it. So [00:46:05] but yeah, the moral of the story is I just have to work harder.

Speaker3: And is, is there is there an [00:46:10] element of you want formal studies? I mean, am I studying while I’m listening to a podcast [00:46:15] or that doesn’t count?

Speaker1: No, that does count.

Speaker3: Yeah, that’s I’m studying every night. [00:46:20]

Speaker4: Then there you go. There you go. I’m amazing. Yeah. It’s anything [00:46:25] that is new.

Speaker1: Information is.

Speaker4: Studying. Yeah.

Speaker3: But, you [00:46:30] know, some people are literally course junkies. Some some people are diploma junkie junkies. They [00:46:35] want pieces of paper. Yeah, some people are degree junkies. They want actual, you know, [00:46:40] letters.

Speaker4: Yeah, I.

Speaker1: Was definitely on the degree junkie, but that’s more something that’s [00:46:45] come from my family. My family is very academic. You know, for my dad, the least you could do is a [00:46:50] PhD. So my, my brothers both have masters and he’s pushing them both to [00:46:55] do PhDs. And they’re like, actually, you know, we’re fine with our masters, you know? And um, [00:47:00] when my mom heard I wanted to do, for example, a master’s in endodontics, she’s like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s the thing [00:47:05] to do. So for, for them and it’s the whole African thing, you know, when you have because they were [00:47:10] raised in Africa, they were raised with lack, with, you know, poverty, with seeing people [00:47:15] die for a really simple things just from not having, you know, so for them, [00:47:20] education was a huge door out of all of that. And so education is on a massive [00:47:25] pedestal in our in my family and in my home. So the more letters you have after the [00:47:30] name, the more highly regarded you are in my family basically. So yeah.

Speaker3: I think we can [00:47:35] all sort of sort of relate to the idea of that. But the interesting thing is it’s no longer [00:47:40] education is no longer the one way ticket to success that it used to be. [00:47:45]

Speaker4: Yeah. Absolutely not.

Speaker3: And at the same time, I thought I was kind of immune to all this [00:47:50] by now. And yet when the thing came up in my son, my son’s doing A-levels, [00:47:55] when, when it came up, hey, Oxford and Cambridge. Yeah. And suddenly some part of [00:48:00] me said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’ve got to do that. Yeah. And, and you know, it’s [00:48:05] within, you know, it’s a bit like you think you think you’re not racist until you realise you’re racist about [00:48:10] something. Yeah. Or you think you’re not sexist until you realise you’re sexist. You know, we all have a certain [00:48:15] bit of all of that in us, but it seems it seems like were you doing all this [00:48:20] to, to kind of fit in to the family thing to do you, did [00:48:25] you want to go and say, hey, mom, dad, guess what? I got a extra degree, you know, like, where [00:48:30] does it come from exactly?

Speaker1: It wasn’t fitting in. It was more that this was just the path that [00:48:35] I had been led down. I didn’t even think of anything else. So I remember when I was applying [00:48:40] for university and years and one of my friends said, oh, I don’t even know if I’m going to go to U.S and that [00:48:45] was the first time that idea that you don’t have to go to university genuinely entered my head. Like, [00:48:50] I’m not even kidding. Like the thought that I’m not going to go into university was never [00:48:55] something that I even. Sexualised because it was such. It was made like [00:49:00] this was the norm in our family, you know, do ABC and then this is the next step and then that’s [00:49:05] the next step. So for them it was school, university, preferably a postgraduate degree as well as [00:49:10] a minimum. So anything other than that was just not normal [00:49:15] to me. So it’s not like I was trying to people please. But this was the my this was my normalcy [00:49:20] essentially. And I didn’t know anything outside of it.

Speaker3: And [00:49:25] then so now now looking at looking at your output, there’s an [00:49:30] element of it that is like sort of inspiring others.

Speaker1: I hope to, yes, because I [00:49:35] think social media is something that’s quite. What’s [00:49:40] the word? Um. Oh, what’s the word when polarising. There we go. Yeah. [00:49:45] Social media is something that’s very polarising, and even I myself can get sucked in in [00:49:50] the bad way. And I think about when I was a student and when I was at university, and how I [00:49:55] didn’t have the pressure of social media and comparing yourself to other people. And because that’s something that I feel [00:50:00] I’m particularly susceptible to comparison and looking at what they’re doing and like, [00:50:05] oh, you know, I should be doing that too. And I really wanted to have a space on social [00:50:10] media where I was where it’s kind of like, you know, your current life is a dream. You [00:50:15] know, you what you do doesn’t matter what everyone else is doing, but actually your current life [00:50:20] is amazing compared to such a large percentage of the world. And I think I think [00:50:25] like that just because, like I said, with my parents job, I’ve been fortunate to go to many of these places where people [00:50:30] really do not have anything. And then, you know, the other day I was telling my husband about this.

Speaker1: I had this big revelation [00:50:35] because I have a Range Rover, and I was having issues with it and I was getting really angry with [00:50:40] it, like really angry. I was going back and forth with the dealership and like things were not working. [00:50:45] And then one day I just thought, oh my God, yeah, if this thing never gets fixed fixed, I’m okay [00:50:50] with it. Because here I am being angry that my luxury car is not luxurious enough. You [00:50:55] know, where there’s people out there who literally don’t have food to eat? I was like, what a ridiculous thing to spend so much [00:51:00] energy being angry about. Like, what is my life? You know? And once [00:51:05] you start to get that bit of perspective, you’re like, this is not the thing. Like, it’s okay to be angry, [00:51:10] but this is not the thing to spend your energy being angry about. You know, there’s actually real [00:51:15] issues in the world where you need to spend your your energy being angry about, not because you’re luxury [00:51:20] car is not being working the way you want it to, you know. And I just thought I realised [00:51:25] how ridiculous I was being in that moment.

Speaker4: And where did it come from?

Speaker3: This, this, this question [00:51:30] of sort of inspiring others and, you know, like teaching other people how to [00:51:35] live sort of thing, how to how to improve themselves. But I don’t understand where that thread started [00:51:40] in your, in your career.

Speaker4: Like it’s more what.

Speaker1: I would have liked for myself. So [00:51:45] I kind of try and share for other people what I would have liked for myself, because in the early [00:51:50] years of my career, I was very unsure of everything. And I think there’s still lots of elements that I’m [00:51:55] still unsure about. But actually, like I said, I realise how far I’ve come and I want to help other people [00:52:00] get to that place as well. Now, at the moment I just don’t have time to put out stuff with [00:52:05] children, but I really hope to show people that actually [00:52:10] where they are at the moment is great, and what they have within themselves is also great, [00:52:15] you know, and they have everything they they need already [00:52:20] to be great, and all they need to do is put it in place and start walking in it. [00:52:25]

Speaker3: Look, this, this thing you were saying about social media being polarising and making [00:52:30] you feel sort of worse about yourself. I got that feeling from [00:52:35] your page.

Speaker4: Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker3: Because she just seemed so successful. Man, you seem like [00:52:40] you’re living your best life, and and I. And I see you, by the way. I [00:52:45] get it right. It’s so that’s just Instagram. Yeah. Yeah it is, but but I [00:52:50] see you, you know, one moment writing a sort of motivational quote. Next moment [00:52:55] you’re stretching in the gym or something, next moment you’re with your kids, [00:53:00] next moment you’re talking about teeth whitening. Yeah. And I think, well, God, like this [00:53:05] is, this is a person who’s clearly busier than I am and yet still gets time to, you know, [00:53:10] go to the gym and look after a kid. Yeah. Extras. You’re doing so much more than me. You’re doing so much more [00:53:15] than me sort of feeling. Yeah. Now, I’m not a mother and I’m not, you know, I’m not even directly comparable [00:53:20] to you. Yeah, but what you said before, where you see other people and you think that’s [00:53:25] competitive nature comes out and it’s for [00:53:30] it’s one of the downsides of it, for sure, of social media that makes you [00:53:35] end up comparing. And then the weird thing is, like, [00:53:40] you get the people who I’ve got a couple of friends who have private jets [00:53:45] right now, I’ve never seen a picture of their private jet on their social media. [00:53:50] Never. Yeah. And then you get all these other people.

Speaker4: On on.

Speaker3: Private [00:53:55] jets and they’re like, you know, like people put this sort of different side of.

Speaker4: Themselves. [00:54:00]

Speaker3: Forward. Right. But now in your in your work, in your, in [00:54:05] your life and, you know, someone as busy as you nine month old kid, do [00:54:10] you think going forward, as the kids grow up, that you’re going to lean more into this sort of trying [00:54:15] to teach or inspire or, you know, do that stuff? It looks like looking at your [00:54:20] output, it looks like that’s the direction you’re going.

Speaker1: To be honest, I think I’m gonna [00:54:25] spend more time pursuing what my true passions are and bring people [00:54:30] along on the journey. Aha! And if people are inspired by that or [00:54:35] are looking to go on similar journeys, then that’s what I’m there to support. Because as you said. It’s always [00:54:40] a persona. And even in that and it’s funny you say that, but that’s not what I was trying to [00:54:45] portray.

Speaker4: You know, you’re just putting.

Speaker3: Down, you know, bits of your life, right?

Speaker4: Exactly.

Speaker1: But it’s it’s funny [00:54:50] how different things perceive. Different people perceive what you put online and what they [00:54:55] take from it themselves. So yeah, it’s but yeah, my goal essentially [00:55:00] isn’t to tell people how to live or teach them how to live, really, [00:55:05] it’s to help them kind of like reach within themselves. Yeah. [00:55:10] And do what they want to do, because that’s what I’m trying to do for myself all the time. I think one of my posts [00:55:15] I put recently is about how I’d taken a break from social media, because I was getting too influenced by [00:55:20] other people and getting really distracted on what I wanted to do, and I just needed to [00:55:25] take some time to reflect on actually what was important to me and, and focus [00:55:30] on those things. And in the same way, I hope people will not look at my page and think, oh, [00:55:35] I want to do what she’s doing, but be more, be like, if that’s something, that’s also something I want to do, [00:55:40] let me see how she’s doing and see if I can learn anything from there, you know. But how do we do that? [00:55:45] How do we be authentic without making people feel bad? That’s the challenge of social media, [00:55:50] you know?

Speaker3: And it’s not up to you. It’s not up to you to stop people feeling bad. You know, [00:55:55] in the end, you know, you’re busy person, you’re posting whatever, you’re posting this, [00:56:00] you know, it’s just a side effect of it. You know, it’s one of those things. So your your [00:56:05] parents or your mum, particularly UNHCR, um, what are some of the things [00:56:10] that you’ve learned from her? And um, you’ve, you’re doing some charity [00:56:15] work. Dental charity work as well.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: Yeah. So I think the biggest thing that I [00:56:20] learned from my mother is how privileged I am. Yeah, really, from all the places that [00:56:25] she’s been, she’s told me some of the horrendous stories that she’s had to deal with and come to terms with. So [00:56:30] she started off as a refugee lawyer in refugee camps. You know, she would deal with just women [00:56:35] who were displaced and and getting raped in refugee camps and advocating for them. Then she moved on [00:56:40] to advocating for groups of people. Then she would tell me more individualised stories, for example, [00:56:45] children who would be unwell, and then they would get moved around internationally to get some treatment, and then for several [00:56:50] of them would die before they’d managed to get the treatment. So there’s really like people who are having such struggles. And then you look [00:56:55] at your life and you think, actually, I’m so privileged. So that’s I think the biggest takeaway from my parents job [00:57:00] is recognising my privilege. And what a like a great life [00:57:05] I have. It’s it’s difficult to you can forget that easily. But yeah. And I think that was the biggest thing. And [00:57:10] also the desire to make any change that you can do for, for [00:57:15] the world because you think, who am I am such a little person, what can I do? But you know, when she said [00:57:20] to me, here’s an opportunity, here’s what you can do. I’ve laid out the road for you. Will you [00:57:25] come? You know. And I was like, well, why would I say no? You know, so she she [00:57:30] made the introductions. She, you know, said, here’s a camp, here’s someone you can work [00:57:35] with. Here’s a place you can work here are the people needing help, you know.

Speaker4: What are the details? [00:57:40]

Speaker3: What were the details?

Speaker1: So basically, we went to a refugee camp in Malawi. So it’s [00:57:45] the biggest refugee camp there. It’s called Zalika and it’s been there for over 25 years. And they had not had any [00:57:50] dentists in the entire time that the camp had been there. Because unfortunately, the UN sees dentistry [00:57:55] is a luxury. So they provide medical care, but they don’t provide any dental care because obviously the funds [00:58:00] are stretched. So a lot of the people there who have [00:58:05] dental pain or abscesses are they’re just on a rotation of antibiotics basically. [00:58:10] How long terme. So the first time I went, she was [00:58:15] what we call the UN representative from Malawi. So in Malawi she represented UNHCR. [00:58:20] So she was completely in charge of refugee camps. So it gave her a more leeway to do what she wanted [00:58:25] essentially. So she said, okay, why don’t you go in and have a look? So I went there and I did first a screening [00:58:30] program, and I just looked at what the need was before I decide what I needed to come [00:58:35] and do. And I just saw the vast majority of them just needed extractions. And [00:58:40] you had children that had been on like courses of antibiotics for years, basically [00:58:45] on cycles. It’s just really tragic. And so I planned and a [00:58:50] year later I came back with a team of dentists and we went to. So Zuleikha is [00:58:55] the biggest camp. And then they have another smaller camp called Luani. And we did both camps and we were there [00:59:00] for about a week each time, and we just did extractions back to back, no X-rays, no anything. [00:59:05] You’re just doing it. But I was the way it all came together was really amazing. I had an [00:59:10] oral surgeon who came from Egypt, and so she was our failsafe [00:59:15] if anything went wrong. Uh, because like I said, we didn’t have access to X-rays. So [00:59:20] you’re just going for it and hoping that you can get the majority of the tooth out.

Speaker4: Did you have dental.

Speaker3: Dental chairs [00:59:25] and dental?

Speaker4: No, no dental chairs.

Speaker1: So it was in Zalika. They have a medical [00:59:30] centre. So we were working in the medical centre. So they had beds, and I essentially made a list of [00:59:35] equipments that I asked all the dentists to bring, and they just came with their torchlights and I bought loads of. Extraction [00:59:40] equipment from Dentaid, and that was pretty much all we had. And they had a steriliser in [00:59:45] the medical department. So fortunate we were able to use their steriliser. Um, but that’s pretty much [00:59:50] it. So head torch forceps and a translator and we went for it.

Speaker3: And have you got [00:59:55] numbers like in the week? How many teeth did you take out?

Speaker1: So I think we tallied up, we took [01:00:00] over 2 to 300 teeth out.

Speaker4: A week.

Speaker1: In that week. Yeah.

Speaker4: Oh my. [01:00:05]

Speaker3: God.

Speaker1: It was just back to back extractions all day long. And then for for the [01:00:10] ones who had, you know, treatments that we weren’t able to complete in that week because the abscesses [01:00:15] were too large or just, you know, could not be managed in our makeshift clinic, the [01:00:20] dental office still in Lilongwe, which is the capital city. So the camp is outside of the capital [01:00:25] city, and the refugees are not actually allowed to go into Lilongwe. They have to stay [01:00:30] within the camp, and some of them have been there their whole lives, so they could literally be there ten, 20 years and [01:00:35] can never leave the camp unless they move on to their permanent home. And a lot of them get stuck [01:00:40] there. So while we were there, the I went to the hospital [01:00:45] in Lilongwe and they agreed to accept referrals from us. So we were able to refer the [01:00:50] most urgent children who needed more advanced care, essentially, but they [01:00:55] wouldn’t take any adults just because they were overwhelmed as well with just their general populations, but they were willing to [01:01:00] see the children.

Speaker3: So what was the what was the story of the people who [01:01:05] ended up in the refugee camp? Because, you know, my my, my cousin [01:01:10] works, my wife’s cousin works for the UN and and she said that, [01:01:15] you know, it depends on where it is and all that. But the sort of the link between, [01:01:20] you see, we talk about a refugee as if that’s what they’ve always been. [01:01:25] But she she was telling me that there was there was a doctor [01:01:30] and a lawyer in Syria, and their eight year old kid couldn’t [01:01:35] read and write because of the war. They hadn’t had a managed school, and they’d ended up in a refugee [01:01:40] camp, you know, now. Okay, rewind three years back, that was a doctor [01:01:45] and a lawyer in a city somewhere that ended up in this refugee camp. And, you [01:01:50] know, in the same way as, I mean, we see we see these pictures coming out of Gaza, right? People walking, [01:01:55] walking the streets that they didn’t always walk the streets, they had houses or.

Speaker4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [01:02:00]

Speaker3: Or even even even down to, I mean, this totally different thing. But you [01:02:05] see, an old person in the street wasn’t always an old person. It was a young was [01:02:10] a young person.

Speaker4: Young thing. Once upon a time.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What [01:02:15] are the stories like? How did they end up in these camps? And what are some of the stories that sort of stuck with you?

Speaker1: A [01:02:20] lot of them were fleeing conflict. Naturally. Africa, unfortunately, [01:02:25] is just strife with conflict. There’s a long colonial non colonial history behind that that we [01:02:30] just don’t need to go into. But the vast majority of them were fleeing conflict. [01:02:35] You do obviously also have some economic migrants as well and they just get stuck in Malawi. [01:02:40] So Malawi was a lot of them a transit point. A lot of them were aiming to get to [01:02:45] more industrialised countries in Africa. So along, for example, the east Kenya [01:02:50] is doing quite well, Tanzania is doing quite well. Some of them were aiming to go further down south [01:02:55] to South Africa and Namibia, Zimbabwe, and they just get stuck in Malawi essentially. [01:03:00] And I don’t know exactly what the processing process in Malawi is, [01:03:05] but I know that a lot of them find that they’re not able to leave, they’re not able to go back to where they [01:03:10] were coming from, and they’re not able to join society in Malawi because the Malawi is overwhelmed. [01:03:15] So they get stuck in this limbo point where they’re not essentially living, [01:03:20] they’re not moving forward, but they’re not going back. And it’s just a really. So that’s I found that a lot of them had were just [01:03:25] despondent because they had been there for so long and they didn’t know where where they were going next, [01:03:30] essentially. So Malawi is a great country and that it does accept refugees [01:03:35] in quotas. But they were just, I think, [01:03:40] 24,000 refugees in that camp.

Speaker3: And is what tents, literally tents.

Speaker1: Some [01:03:45] of them are houses, some of them are tents. But because it’s been there for so long, it’s got more infrastructure [01:03:50] to it. So there are schools in there and things like that. But you know, it’s still not a proper [01:03:55] city. It’s because it’s it’s a size of a city, you know. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:00] it’s still not, you know, they still don’t have proper services. And like I said, they have this medical centre which [01:04:05] is running on bare minimum with the funds from the UN, which they have to stretch, you [01:04:10] know, across a lot of services. So it’s really a half life essentially, which is [01:04:15] quite tragic. And a lot of them were heading there either leaving, as you said, good [01:04:20] lives, hoping just to find a place of safety or where we’re going from lack [01:04:25] and finding themselves in another position of lack, not having moved any further forward [01:04:30] in their hopes and their dreams. So.

Speaker3: And you must have you’re busy, dentist, mother and [01:04:35] all that, but you must have had moments where you thought if I had resources. What [01:04:40] would be sort of the best way of using them for these sort of situations. I [01:04:45] mean, I’ve got one friend. He was he was saying, look, if you could many, many of us [01:04:50] as dentists and doctors would give up 1 or 2 weeks of, of our, of our year [01:04:55] to do something like this. If there was a nice, organised way of doing it, you know, if. Yeah, [01:05:00] if and he was looking to do that, he was looking to set up a website and, and so forth, and then, and then [01:05:05] he realised he did that, he did that in medicine. And then he realised that, [01:05:10] you know, there’s an aspect of it that is almost still selfish, insomuch [01:05:15] as, hey, it’s nice for us to do a bit of charity work as, as well about it.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Feel good [01:05:20] about ourselves. Yeah. But you know, when they did the study on what would give the best [01:05:25] outcomes, it was training people out there.

Speaker1: Exactly. So the goal [01:05:30] of my charity had three arms essentially was outreach because you need to give practical help immediately. [01:05:35] But actually there was an education aspect and a future aspect as well. So I had [01:05:40] three arms in my plan. So this all happened before I had children. So my outreach trip was in [01:05:45] 2016, 2017, and my goal had been to do annual [01:05:50] trips to give, you know, immediate urgent relief, but also to do training [01:05:55] trips and to train local dental health care advisors who could deal with basic situations. [01:06:00] And I also wanted to set up a dental scholarship as well to help train dentists [01:06:05] in locally, because there’s a huge element with charity work, especially [01:06:10] coming from the Western world. When you’re doing charity tourism, you know you’re going and you’re leaving [01:06:15] and you know you feel good yourself. You’re like, oh, I’ve done this wonderful thing. But actually, what lasting impact is [01:06:20] there? It’s great to help a few people. But you know what Long Terme is, is there. And [01:06:25] places like dent are great because they have got long terme roots in places. Yeah. [01:06:30] And they, you know, they go back repeatedly. And one of the things I wanted to do was to set up something where we go back [01:06:35] repeatedly and have relationships and not just, you know, it’s not just a one time thing. You know, you’d [01:06:40] want people who would say, I can commit to doing this once a year for the foreseeable future, for example. [01:06:45] Right. It’s not about you. It’s about what change you’re putting, what foundations [01:06:50] of change you’re putting in. But children just derailed all of that.

Speaker4: Have [01:06:55] you have you heard of.

Speaker3: Have you heard of effective altruism?

Speaker1: No, I haven’t actually.

Speaker4: I just [01:07:00] had.

Speaker3: A kind of a bad name recently because that guy, um, Sam Bankman-Fried from the, you [01:07:05] know, the crypto thing, he, he was really into it. But but what it means is I from [01:07:10] what I understand, what it means is that look, the okay going going to the camp [01:07:15] and taking the teeth out and the gratitude of that patient who’s now out of pain and [01:07:20] that makes us feel good. And what you just said about tourism, you know, charity, tourism. But [01:07:25] effective altruism says, you know, what would be the most effective thing for you, you [01:07:30] to do. Yeah. So let’s say it’s you. Actually, the most helpful thing for you to do [01:07:35] would be to earn loads of money as a private dentist and give them money to [01:07:40] local dentists to go and buy locally, whatever, you know, whatever [01:07:45] it is. Yeah. And it’s a funny thing. It’s an important thing that we need to understand that our motivation. [01:07:50]

Speaker4: Absolutely.

Speaker3: Yeah. At the same time, your insight that you’ve got [01:07:55] into it from your mom’s work.

Speaker1: That’s what I mean. I’m in a.

Speaker4: Unique position because.

Speaker1: I have a lot of open doors. And [01:08:00] that’s why I think.

Speaker4: For you.

Speaker1: It’s it’s it would be remiss of me not to use them because I have [01:08:05] access to so many people that other people just don’t have. Like because of her role [01:08:10] in the UN, she can connect me to a lot of important people all over Africa who have [01:08:15] access to these refugee camps, you know? So it would be that’s why I feel quite [01:08:20] burdened by it’s a waste of my connections, essentially not to do something, even if I, I can’t [01:08:25] physically go there at the moment, but even it’s just to set up relationships and just to say, you know, what can [01:08:30] we support with. That’s what I’m currently trying to do. So my one of the things I want to do this year is revamp the charity and [01:08:35] actually just start to say, maybe as an element of effective altruism, [01:08:40] what can I do now without me physically coming there that is going to support advancing [01:08:45] the chair? So for example, with our last trip, when we left, we found local dentists and we gave away all [01:08:50] our equipment.

Speaker4: Nice.

Speaker1: Uh, there. So we didn’t bring anything back. We gave it to the dental hospital [01:08:55] in Lilongwe, and we gave it to a local dentist who who found out about our trip online. And he travelled [01:09:00] quite far because he said he literally had nothing, you know. So we gave him all our equipment [01:09:05] and it’s just, you know, things like that. And I think everyone has specific sets [01:09:10] of skills or connections or something that they use, and I’m just trying to use what I have [01:09:15] to the best that I can. But it’s challenging.

Speaker3: Of course. And what was the name of the [01:09:20] charity? Did it have a name?

Speaker1: Yeah. So it’s called Oral Health Africa. It’s on Instagram. I’ll tag it. [01:09:25]

Speaker3: Oh, excellent. Excellent. I’ll take it in the thing as well. Let’s let’s get back to dentistry. [01:09:30] Your job now. Um, what is it? Fully private.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:09:35] so 100% fully private. We see NHS kids and plan patients. [01:09:40]

Speaker3: Okay. And the practice is is it, is it what I would imagine a [01:09:45] fully private practice in around in and around Bristol to be is it very nice and [01:09:50] slow and so forth or what is it like, what kind of practices.

Speaker4: It’s actually quite busy. [01:09:55]

Speaker1: It’s not as busy as an NHS practice. Nowhere near, but I think [01:10:00] probably compared to other private practices, probably a little bit busier. Mhm. Um, and that’s I [01:10:05] think we’re seeing a lot of the fallout from the kind of like reduction of [01:10:10] NHS pay access. Essentially we’re having a lot of patients who are joining our practice [01:10:15] saying I used to be an NHS patient, I literally cannot find an NHS dentist and they’re having to space [01:10:20] out their treatment because they just can’t afford to pay for it and things like that. So we’re quite inundated with [01:10:25] patients at the moment. So it’s an interesting climate to be working in.

Speaker3: What kind of dentist [01:10:30] are you? Are you general? I noticed you do a lot of facial aesthetics.

Speaker1: I did. [01:10:35] I haven’t done as much recently. When I was in Portsmouth, I was running a facial aesthetics clinic. [01:10:40]

Speaker4: Mhm. Um.

Speaker1: Independently. Then Covid hit and that ended. Um, [01:10:45] and I haven’t really done much with it since then. Since moving to [01:10:50] Bristol, I’ve definitely focussed more on general dentistry. I’m trying to pursue my interests [01:10:55] of orthodontics, endodontics and a little bit of restorative as well. [01:11:00] So those are kind of the three things I’m trying to hang my hat at. But I have the unfortunate [01:11:05] thing that I’m always I have too many legs out. So [01:11:10] I’ve progressed very slowly because I’m doing so many things at once. But yeah, those are the things that I’m interested [01:11:15] in kind of trying to move my career towards. Essentially.

Speaker4: Let’s get to darker days. Oh, [01:11:20] um.

Speaker3: We like to talk about mistakes, errors, um, [01:11:25] maybe your most difficult patient or the biggest [01:11:30] clinical mistake in your view. What comes to mind when I, when I talk, when I ask that question.

Speaker1: Oh, [01:11:35] so I think it would be a difficult patient. And this is one I just really did not know what [01:11:40] to do with. So this is an elderly man when I was living in Portsmouth and [01:11:45] he was just really, really challenging. He really needed help. So [01:11:50] he had loads of rotten teeth that needed removing. He was in pain, but he [01:11:55] was a very abrasive and just rude man. And for me that [01:12:00] was a huge human relations thing to overcome because on the one [01:12:05] side, like I said, I’m I’m such a do gooder. I like to do good. And I thought, this is someone that really needs my help, but [01:12:10] this is someone that I really do not like.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker1: And that was just the harsh reality [01:12:15] of it. I really did not like him and I did not want to see him, but he had been banned [01:12:20] from many practices and almost no one else was willing to see him, essentially.

Speaker3: And you thought you were [01:12:25] the one who’s going to break this?

Speaker4: I thought I was.

Speaker1: The one, and boy, did it come back to bite me in the butt.

Speaker3: Go on [01:12:30] laughing.

Speaker1: So I did clearance for him on the lower arch and made [01:12:35] him dentures. And he was unhappy with the outcome and [01:12:40] he ended up suing me, called the local health board and he [01:12:45] was a serial complainer, so they weren’t surprised to hear from him. [01:12:50] But at the same time, it was a huge period of stress for me to go through that complaints [01:12:55] process. And, you know, it’s always the ones you’re trying to help the most, you know.

Speaker4: That [01:13:00] come back to bite you in the bum.

Speaker1: Yeah. And that. Yeah. It just just because [01:13:05] I already didn’t like him, you know. And I was like, oh, and you have this gut feeling like [01:13:10] I really shouldn’t treat him. But it was really fighting the other side of me, which is like, no, but nobody [01:13:15] else will see him, you know, like, where is he going to go? Somebody needs to see him. And I [01:13:20] should have sent him to the hospital. But there I was.

Speaker3: So go. What can we do? What happened? [01:13:25] What actually happened?

Speaker1: So I he was unhappy [01:13:30] essentially. So the actual clinical treatment went fine in terms of the extractions and [01:13:35] the, you know, the clinical part of it. But the dentures he found uncomfortable, [01:13:40] he just wasn’t happy with them, you know. And we spent several appointments going back and [01:13:45] forth. First of all it was the appearance of them. Next it was the comfort of them. Next, [01:13:50] he can’t talk, he can’t eat. He just didn’t adapt to them. And he was a little bit older. [01:13:55] So it was you know, it was challenging for him to adapt to them. But just the whole process of making [01:14:00] them, you know, he was in the clinic just all the time, you know, back and forth, denture ease, denture adjustment. [01:14:05] We talked about remaking, you know, redoing. But he just thought, no, he didn’t want to go through the whole process [01:14:10] again. And we spent like ages going back and forth with him [01:14:15] like months.

Speaker4: You know.

Speaker3: About you I don’t know about you, but [01:14:20] in my career, I can’t think of that many patients that I did a clearance on [01:14:25] and then made full dentures. I made loads and loads of full dentures for existing [01:14:30] full denture patients. But if you put yourself in that [01:14:35] person’s shoes, it must be a complete nightmare.

Speaker4: Yeah, it’s a complete shock. [01:14:40]

Speaker1: Complete. But he wasn’t able to eat properly anyway because they were making roots, you know? So a [01:14:45] lot of broken teeth are mainly roots. So it’s not like he had much to compare it to, but at the same time, [01:14:50] and he’d been like that for a long time. Um, but.

Speaker4: Yeah, he got a letter from [01:14:55] a lawyer.

Speaker1: Yeah. So he, he complained formally, which was not delightful. [01:15:00] Um, and I and I haven’t had a lot of complaints. You get the little [01:15:05] ones like, oh, I’m not having that. And then you kind of like, you know, deal with it quickly and it doesn’t really go anywhere. But [01:15:10] this was the full, you know, get the indemnity involved, the letters back and forth and it dragged [01:15:15] on like that. Basically him giving details, you know, my indemnity responding [01:15:20] back and forth like that for quite a while.

Speaker3: How long like how long are we talking.

Speaker1: Less [01:15:25] than a year.

Speaker4: Oh, my.

Speaker3: God, as long as I.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:15:30] Um, I can’t remember exactly because it’s quite a while ago now, but it went on for quite a while. What [01:15:35] was the.

Speaker3: Feeling that you had? Was the feeling that you had was that, uh, this guy was [01:15:40] sort of an outlier. Difficult patient. Maybe I should maybe I shouldn’t have jumped [01:15:45] in.

Speaker4: Oh, I completely.

Speaker1: Felt I shouldn’t have.

Speaker4: Done. No no no no no.

Speaker3: But I’m saying maybe I shouldn’t have jumped [01:15:50] in. But, you know, at the end of the day, this was going to happen somewhere along the line with this guy with with someone. [01:15:55] Or was your feeling sort of much, much darker than that, that [01:16:00] you know, you were trying your best? Now this guy saying you weren’t and maybe, maybe you could have treated him better. [01:16:05] Maybe you could have warned him. What was what were you thinking? Was it getting you properly down about the dentist [01:16:10] you were, or was it getting you down about the decision to treat this one patient?

Speaker1: I think [01:16:15] it was probably the decision to treat the one patient because by and large, we’re always doing our best. You [01:16:20] know, if I, I don’t not that I don’t feel bad about my mistakes, but when I [01:16:25] do make mistakes, I don’t I try not to beat myself up about it because it’s not because I’m not trying. It’s [01:16:30] genuine human error. And these things are going to happen, you know? And obviously as you go along in your career, [01:16:35] it should hopefully happen less, but it’s still going to happen. But what I found particularly [01:16:40] difficult is that despite me being my best, trying my best and saying, yeah, here are things that I could [01:16:45] have done better, but I’m still trying my best. That wasn’t good enough, you [01:16:50] know? And I think that’s the bit that really hurts. And that was really difficult to deal with because, like, [01:16:55] I was trying my best for you where a lot of people wouldn’t.

Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker1: You know, and [01:17:00] that was yeah, it was more I think again, it’s it’s always the human [01:17:05] relationship element of it that I found difficult.

Speaker4: You know, on, on reflection. [01:17:10]

Speaker3: Apart from not treating him because that you’re saying that’s the [01:17:15] right move, but that would.

Speaker4: Have been the right move.

Speaker3: Yeah, but but apart from that, would you have done something [01:17:20] differently within the within the treatment or within the communication?

Speaker1: Um, [01:17:25] I think maybe I would have made the downsides. Um, [01:17:30] sound worse than they were. You know, they always say under-promise and overdeliver, and I [01:17:35] didn’t under-promise enough. You know, I just thought from someone who hasn’t had [01:17:40] dentures and who’s been in so much pain, this is going to be great. You know, it’s going to be such [01:17:45] a step up from his current situation. That’s the way I kind of looked at it and presented it, and I [01:17:50] it never even crossed my mind that he would be unhappy with any [01:17:55] outcome from where he currently started. And I think that was the difficulty.

Speaker3: It’s [01:18:00] funny prosthetics that there’s such a such a psychological side to prosthetics as well. Um, [01:18:05] I have a bunch of experience with it. I did a house job which had a prosthetic bit [01:18:10] in it. One of my bosses was was. That’s all he did. Um, and then we [01:18:15] had a great teacher in university, and the guy in university, he used to say this, actually, he’d say, say [01:18:20] to your patients that it’s a wooden leg. You know, let them understand.

Speaker4: Really? Good. [01:18:25] Yeah.

Speaker3: And he used to say, so it’s a wooden leg. And eating is [01:18:30] like playing football with a wooden leg. And I guess that’s what he’s saying, isn’t it? Lower expectations. [01:18:35]

Speaker4: Yeah, really.

Speaker1: Like I did not know it enough, but I’m just thinking he’s had abscesses for [01:18:40] so long.

Speaker4: I’m sure he’s just glad.

Speaker1: Yeah, he’s just going to be glad to be pain [01:18:45] free and have something to put some food against. But no, that I [01:18:50] just yeah, I made it sound too great I think.

Speaker3: I’ll [01:18:55] take I’ll take that one. I’ll take that one, I’ll take that one. Because sometimes, [01:19:00] sometimes I, I don’t know what was the outcome. What was the outcome. How did it all end?

Speaker1: Oh, [01:19:05] God. It’s actually quite a horrendous story. Oh, God. Um, he dropped it in the. Oops, sorry. [01:19:10] He dropped it in the end. Um, he just kind of, like, idled away, and he. [01:19:15] But he still wanted to come to see me, which is the difficult part and the practice. And you’re like, [01:19:20] okay, cool, you can come. And then he passed away because like I said, he was older. So that was the end of it. [01:19:25] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker3: That’s that’s that’s that’s that’s a good one [01:19:30] we can all learn from.

Speaker4: Brilliant. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. So it didn’t like in terms of like claim and [01:19:35] everything, it didn’t go anywhere because after all the back and forth he just decided to drop it.

Speaker3: So so [01:19:40] in the preamble, you told me that you kind of decided not [01:19:45] to open a practice.

Speaker4: Um, is.

Speaker3: That your final decision or is that just for now?

Speaker1: No, [01:19:50] no, that’s just for now. Just because I think in this moment of life with children and life [01:19:55] and trying to always move forward, I feel again a little bit overwhelmed. And [01:20:00] opening a practice is just another big hurdle that I don’t know if I want to. And plus, because my husband’s [01:20:05] not a dentist, he’s not really interested at all in doing it with me. I might get convinced him, [01:20:10] but it’s just for him. It’s too much of a learning curve and he doesn’t show [01:20:15] any interest in it. And it’s not something I’d want to do on my own. So. But, you know, we both might change in the future. [01:20:20]

Speaker3: What about a business partner?

Speaker1: A business partner I had thought about. But there’s, you [01:20:25] know, it’s it’s an intimate relationship. And the relationship is very important. [01:20:30] And you’ve I’ve heard about, you know, because I did a little bit of research on it and just the number of failures that [01:20:35] happened because of poor partnerships, you know. So for me, [01:20:40] the only comfortable person I would feel with at the moment is my husband. [01:20:45]

Speaker4: Um, I.

Speaker3: Don’t think you should take those those failure stories too much to [01:20:50] heart, though, because you know well a number of failed [01:20:55] marriages, if you want. If you want, you know what I mean?

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: I don’t know about [01:21:00] you, but I find I’m similar to you in so much as I find it particularly [01:21:05] daunting to start a business by myself, I just there’s so many things I’m bad at that [01:21:10] I just do not. I want someone else to. To help.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Um, [01:21:15] but the question of who that partner should be, actually the, the sort of the received [01:21:20] wisdom on that is in a way, it’s better if it’s a total stranger sometimes. Now, I [01:21:25] can’t live without I can’t I’m like you, I’ve got a fully 100% know [01:21:30] that person. Trust that person. And before I can get into a business relationship with [01:21:35] them. Mhm. Um, but business people, you know, business people, it doesn’t [01:21:40] matter who they’re partnering with. Yeah. They set out expectations at the beginning.

Speaker1: And they want you to meet.

Speaker4: Them. [01:21:45] Yeah.

Speaker3: And, and and they meet them. You know, they say, all right we’re going to meet once a week. We’re going to do this. And, and [01:21:50] um, I think in dentistry we one of the reasons to open a practice [01:21:55] is to have full control, isn’t it. That’s that’s one of the reasons why [01:22:00] associates start practices is to get control. And so in a way, [01:22:05] if if you’re partnering with someone who you’re not aligned with, then you haven’t got control. [01:22:10] So what was the point of opening a practice.

Speaker4: Yeah that’s true.

Speaker3: It’s rare that [01:22:15] people do it for the money. And and often the money isn’t as much as a very, you know, well, [01:22:20] well, well associated with doing very well often. Definitely at the beginning [01:22:25] the money’s not there, but the control piece really is. So, you know, [01:22:30] you’re let’s imagine you run into a Russian billionaire and he says, look, I [01:22:35] trust you. I want you to open our dream practice. I’ll give you the money. I’ll [01:22:40] give you the resources. What kind of practice would it be?

Speaker1: It would definitely be a restorative based [01:22:45] practice, as I said, predominantly focussed on orthodontics, endodontics and just [01:22:50] restoring because I think that’s a lot of people. Even though orthodontics has a huge cosmetic [01:22:55] element, it’s not just cosmetics.

Speaker4: Yes it is. Come on.

Speaker1: It’s not just [01:23:00] cosmetics.

Speaker4: It’s just huge. And that’s the issue.

Speaker1: I’m interested in, like the functional [01:23:05] movements as well, you know, moving teeth to be able to better place a bridge or re intruding [01:23:10] teeth. You know, a number of teeth are taken out in dentures because they’ve over erupted [01:23:15] and things like that, like there is definitely a huge element to that. And yeah, [01:23:20] anyway, it would be a restorative practice. Um, and [01:23:25] it would be very digital, digital technological I love technology. [01:23:30]

Speaker4: Oh do you.

Speaker1: So I love technology. So I always have the newest I try not to [01:23:35] get over to. I’ve got like I live in the Apple world, so I’m all Apple phone, iPad, [01:23:40] Apple Watch. You know, I get everything connected to everything. So [01:23:45] I would have a nice technologically connected practice, get [01:23:50] every CAD cam, everything in the practice, all the scanners. And yeah, that’s the kind of environment [01:23:55] I would work in.

Speaker3: Of all the courses you’ve been to, what were the standout ones?

Speaker1: Oh, [01:24:00] that’s a good one. I went on a really good communications one. Oh I can’t remember [01:24:05] his name. This is terrible. Um. Oh it will come to me [01:24:10] later. I think it’s called the PLP course.

Speaker4: Plp.

Speaker1: Yes. [01:24:15] I cannot remember his name, but it’s not marketed at all. [01:24:20] It was recommended by somebody. It was recommended by Rena, actually, who? I went to university with. The Reno [01:24:25] idea.

Speaker4: Oh. Were you in there? Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah, she she took every award going.

Speaker4: I [01:24:30] heard, I.

Speaker3: Heard that, I heard that.

Speaker1: Yeah, loveliest, loveliest person in [01:24:35] the world. Um, so.

Speaker4: On this.

Speaker3: Podcast as well.

Speaker1: Yeah I know, yeah. Everyone’s [01:24:40] had her everywhere. She is. Yeah. She’s all over and she’s deserves to be because she deserves [01:24:45] everything that she has. She’s worked so hard and is the kindest person ever. Um, [01:24:50] so yeah, Rena recommended and referred me and it’s a, it’s [01:24:55] a communication course. And actually it was really good just about the patient journey and how to interact [01:25:00] and communicate with patients. And it’s just a lot of he breaks it down into really minute [01:25:05] steps and just makes it really reproducible that anyone can do. And [01:25:10] I really enjoyed that course because again, communication is something that is not really focussed enough. [01:25:15]

Speaker3: So one of the nuggets, what were your sort of two three takeaways on [01:25:20] communication that you can teach us?

Speaker4: Oh, okay.

Speaker1: One major takeaway [01:25:25] is agree with the patient. You know you don’t want to [01:25:30] bring negatives into the conversation as much as you can. You reinforce and agree with [01:25:35] whatever they’re saying with you as much as it’s true, obviously, you know, but you want to get [01:25:40] on the same playing field of patient. And one of the good ways to foster [01:25:45] a good environment is by agreeing with people essentially, you know, obviously if it’s something you do not agree with [01:25:50] or it’s factually wrong, then you have to make that clear. But as much as possible, you want to be in [01:25:55] agreeance and repeat their agreement. So I remember one thing on the course is like when they say things, you want to repeat their yes [01:26:00] to them, and it’s just little things, but it helps foster a connection when [01:26:05] people repeat your language. So that was one thing I took away. Another thing was [01:26:10] to match the patient’s energy. So if [01:26:15] someone comes in and they are down, it’s not great to be chirpy. Chirpy. Even if you are feeling [01:26:20] chirpy, you know you need to kind of look at where they are and match your energy [01:26:25] and your mood and your tone and yeah, just everything about you to where they are.

Speaker4: Kind [01:26:30] of like the.

Speaker3: Nlp mirroring thing. Exactly.

Speaker1: Yeah, completely. And so [01:26:35] many times I remember I’ve had to actively do it, and it’s only later on the point where I’ve had to fight. I’ve found out [01:26:40] why. So, you know, someone will come in and they’ll be really surly or quiet or down, and I may be really [01:26:45] happy and laughing and joking with the previous patient, but I think, let me just tone myself down for this patient, and [01:26:50] you’ll find out halfway through the appointment that their husband died yesterday, or, you know, so they don’t need [01:26:55] you laughing and sounding cheery at that moment. You know, they need you.

Speaker4: At their pace [01:27:00] the.

Speaker3: Way they. There are some people who are really good communicators. Right. And so what is [01:27:05] a very good communicator? The person who does that naturally without without even thinking about it. For [01:27:10] the rest of us, we can think about these forces. We can think about it [01:27:15] and adjust ourselves down or up or whatever. I mean, it’s the same as sales training, isn’t it? [01:27:20] There’s the there’s the killer salesman who just naturally can tell what the person [01:27:25] wants and and can. And then there’s the rest of us who have to say, okay. When when there’s [01:27:30] an objection. So think about it like this. Okay. And what [01:27:35] other courses. So that was communication.

Speaker1: That was communication. Um, other stand [01:27:40] out courses. To be honest I’m actually really enjoying the, um, simply undo ten day course. [01:27:45]

Speaker4: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah, I really enjoying it. It’s giving me lots of nuggets. Um, I’m doing it online [01:27:50] because I can’t do anything in person with young children. Yeah. Um.

Speaker3: And [01:27:55] is a hands on element to it as well. Yeah.

Speaker1: So they send you all the, um, equipment. [01:28:00]

Speaker4: Bits?

Speaker1: Yeah. All the bits, um, with the blocks and things like that. And you [01:28:05] need to collect extractor teeth as well. I’m a little bit behind on the, the number of the lectures that I [01:28:10] should be. So I’ve got a few of the, of the sets that I need to work through the practical elements. But yeah, [01:28:15] they send you all the bits. And then I bought a nice little cheap endo motor online and I just [01:28:20] at home, like I said in the evening, I’m just sitting there drilling on my blocks, you know, listening [01:28:25] to the lecture. And it’s just really good nuggets. It’s not just you know.

Speaker3: The [01:28:30] nuggets go on for the general.

Speaker4: Practitioner.

Speaker1: I don’t know if I have enough yet to be honest.

Speaker3: Couple for the general [01:28:35] practitioner.

Speaker1: I think I’m too early I don’t think I have anything. Oh don’t be.

Speaker3: Shy. Don’t be shy. [01:28:40] Go on.

Speaker1: I’m still kind of like working. Okay. Actually, the most important thing I think [01:28:45] that has really impacted my endo so far from doing the course, is the importance of a glide path. [01:28:50]

Speaker3: Remind us, remind us about that. [01:28:55] That does ring a bell.

Speaker1: So, yeah. Um, I couldn’t give you an exact definition if [01:29:00] I’m if I’m honest, which is terrible.

Speaker4: It’s kind of from, from.

Speaker3: From the access to the tip.

Speaker4: Being smoothly. [01:29:05] Just making.

Speaker1: You. Yeah. Giving you a clean access all the way to the apex. [01:29:10] Because a lot before this, I was working on enlarging with the rotary files, but actually [01:29:15] or even finding the access with the rotary files. Um, but it’s actually, as you say, it’s [01:29:20] making a path for the rotary files to go on and follow more smoothly. And it’s just [01:29:25] made everything more straightforward.

Speaker3: And how like, like how [01:29:30] long is this course? Is it ten weeks.

Speaker4: So it’s 1010.

Speaker1: Days.

Speaker4: Ten days over.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:29:35] So two days a month. So it’s five months essentially. So you can go in person [01:29:40] for two days. And I’m doing it two days online and watching the videos in the evening. [01:29:45] And then they send you all the practical stuff to do at home if you’re doing it on the online course. So it’s really great [01:29:50] for, for someone like me who, like I said, I’m in the phase of my life where just going to things hands [01:29:55] on courses is just not practical for my life at the moment. Like I can’t have my husband doing [01:30:00] all the bedtime’s that often. It’s just not fair. But I still want to kind of pursue knowledge. [01:30:05] Online has been absolutely amazing with the how much it’s expanded since Covid, [01:30:10] but just so fantastic. And I’ve really tried to make the most [01:30:15] of it. And just I do everything online now as much as I can. Obviously hands on is important because dentistry is [01:30:20] a practical and clinical degree, but I’m definitely going to get as much as I can while I can at this [01:30:25] point until I can go back to being more hands on. And there’s a lot you can do here. [01:30:30] Really.

Speaker3: What’s the future hold?

Speaker1: Ooh, that’s a good question. [01:30:35] Um, the future for me holds diversify. For [01:30:40] a long time, I thought I wanted to leave dentistry just because I was disillusioned and blah, blah, blah. But I was talking to my husband [01:30:45] the other day, and I think actually, even if I was really, really wealthy, I don’t think I would stop [01:30:50] being a dentist because I’ve worked so hard to get here. Like it’s been blood, sweat and tears. And I [01:30:55] just when you’ve I don’t know if it’s a sunk cost fallacy where, you know, you once you’ve put so much energy [01:31:00] into something, you don’t want to give it up. But I have put a lot into dentistry. And for that reason, I think it’s [01:31:05] always going to be with me in some sort of capacity. It may not necessarily be working in practice if [01:31:10] I, you know, somehow just make something and become a billionaire. You know, I [01:31:15] may be giving practical skills or, you know, be working entirely as [01:31:20] a charitable dentist and not charging for what I do entirely. But it’s a very unique skill, and there’s [01:31:25] not a lot of people in the world who can practically do what we do, you know? So as much as I can earn money and give it, [01:31:30] there’s also a lot of benefit to actually just practically doing the dentistry for people who don’t have access to it. [01:31:35]

Speaker3: So you should definitely follow up the charity whichever direction you go in.

Speaker4: Yeah, I [01:31:40] definitely will. Yeah.

Speaker3: Whichever direction you go in and whether that’s, you know, it’s completely [01:31:45] under your auspice, whether it’s within another, you know, at the end of the day, there’s a vanity [01:31:50] kind of metric in it as well, right. That says.

Speaker4: This.

Speaker3: Is my charity, but [01:31:55] you know which direction you go. You definitely should do something with it. And, [01:32:00] you know, listen, I’m fully up for helping out with that as well. If oh, that’d be great.

Speaker1: The more support, the better.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:32:05]

Speaker3: Any any way I can. So Don so going forward.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:32:10] So charity definitely um, hopefully becoming the restorative [01:32:15] dentist that I want. So focusing on lens orthodontics and restorative [01:32:20] dentistry. So that would be my future I don’t I like I said, I don’t see myself owning a practice, [01:32:25] but I would like to work in a space where I’m completely. Free to really focus [01:32:30] on those areas. And in terms of, yeah, I’m going to stay [01:32:35] in Bristol. I’ve done a tour of the country, so I’ve, I feel at home here. So this.

Speaker4: Lovely.

Speaker3: Lovely, [01:32:40] lovely town isn’t it. It’s one of my favourites.

Speaker4: It’s so family.

Speaker1: Orientated. It’s a really [01:32:45] comfortable. So it’s really nice place to raise my children. And yeah, I’m also interested [01:32:50] in business generally. Like I said my husband does property investing so I will be doing some with him as well. [01:32:55] And yeah, looking into properties and that end of things as well. So that’s that’s what I see myself [01:33:00] in the future.

Speaker3: I know it’s a it’s a little while away, but would you want your kids to be dentists?

Speaker1: To [01:33:05] be honest, I don’t mind. Um, I know a lot of people say, oh, don’t do it. You know, it’s stressful, [01:33:10] it’s all this. But I’m very much pro follow your passions, and if they have an interest in [01:33:15] it, then I would support them in it.

Speaker4: Yeah, but.

Speaker3: You know, the way the way this sort of thing turns out is. That’s a lovely [01:33:20] answer. But the way, the way it works out is your kid doesn’t have passion for any job. [01:33:25]

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, this is true. That’s how it looks. Would I.

Speaker1: Direct them to do.

Speaker3: It? Yeah. [01:33:30] Your kid’s got a passion for PlayStation, let’s say. All right. Okay. Um.

Speaker4: I [01:33:35] think I.

Speaker1: Would, I think I would want my kids to be dentists, because in the end, as much [01:33:40] as we have many challenges and there is a lot, there are a lot [01:33:45] of jobs where you’re unfairly remunerated for the work that you do. But I think, again, [01:33:50] compared to a lot of the world, we do. Okay. You know, so we work [01:33:55] hard and we get we get a living wage, you know.

Speaker4: So living wage, that [01:34:00] is the truth.

Speaker1: If you want to look at the basics of it, we can we can live, you know.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:34:05]

Speaker1: So obviously there’s people who have higher aspirations than living. But you know, [01:34:10] compared to a lot of jobs out there that work just as hard as us, we we live we do. Okay. So [01:34:15] I would I would definitely encourage my children to be dentists. It’s not the only thing in the world you [01:34:20] can do, but I don’t think essentially it’s a bad career.

Speaker3: Yeah, you’re right about you know, I’ve [01:34:25] got I come across a lot of dentists, don’t I? And, um, sometimes you get a guy who’s, [01:34:30] you know, he’s a principal somewhere. He’s earning, I don’t know, 300 grand a year. [01:34:35] And, um, he says, you know, I’m getting a bit bored of dentistry. I [01:34:40] say, so what is it you want to do instead? And he’ll say something like, I’ve always [01:34:45] fancied myself as quite good at marketing. And they’ll he’ll ask me about marketing [01:34:50] because we do marketing as well, right? Yeah. It’s a big part of our. And I was always [01:34:55] having this funny thing I say to you that, you know, the guy who’s earning £300,000 in marketing [01:35:00] is head of marketing for Procter and Gamble. So a world [01:35:05] famous marketeer.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: He’s not a practice owner in Rochdale or wherever [01:35:10] this guy was. Yeah.

Speaker4: You know we do concept.

Speaker3: Yeah. We earn well [01:35:15] for what we do. Um, that said, it’s hard work.

Speaker4: It’s a lot of [01:35:20] hard work. Yeah, I think.

Speaker3: I think two and a half days might be the perfect number of days for dentistry, although [01:35:25] I’m generally against half days insomuch as I feel like, you know, you’ve still got to [01:35:30] go in that day. I know.

Speaker4: You’re there. I know it’s not.

Speaker1: My choice again. Not my practice.

Speaker4: Yeah, [01:35:35] I guess.

Speaker3: Half days, but I’ve I’ve done it all. I’ve done five days. I haven’t done six. I’ve [01:35:40] done five days a week for three, two, one and um, definitely three and two [01:35:45] are the right number three, three. If you want to feel like you’re doing a real, you [01:35:50] know, it’s your full on job and then, you know, your two days of property investment if you want, or kids or whatever it [01:35:55] is, that’s the other side thing or two days a week. If dentistry is kind of the side thing [01:36:00] and actually you’re pushing something else, whether it could be charity or kids or whatever, but 2 or 3 [01:36:05] really is right. One definitely isn’t right. I’ve done one day a week. It’s just no, no, no [01:36:10] balance, no, no cadence.

Speaker4: Yeah. I wanted to be hard.

Speaker1: To have continuity.

Speaker4: With one.

Speaker3: You just [01:36:15] don’t care. You know? You don’t care when things go wrong. Yeah. Because you’re just not there very much.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:36:20]

Speaker3: Let’s get on to our final questions. Fantasy [01:36:25] dinner party. Three guests, [01:36:30] dead or alive, who would you have?

Speaker1: Number one, I would [01:36:35] most definitely have Michelle Obama.

Speaker3: Are you like a bit of Michelle Obama? [01:36:40]

Speaker4: I love a bit Michelle Obama.

Speaker1: Um, I love a bit of her. I loved her books. [01:36:45] I read both her books and, um, becoming and The Light We Carry and becoming particularly was really [01:36:50] poignant for me. And there’s one quote in there that she said something along the lines of, we have to [01:36:55] go out there and identify ourselves. Oh, no. Um, yeah. Give ourselves [01:37:00] an identity before the world gives us an identity. And that really spoke to me [01:37:05] in terms of there’s so many pressures in the world and so many things in the life that give you labels. And, [01:37:10] you know, her whole book, becoming was about how she went out and forged the path that was specific to her. [01:37:15] And she obviously had a very unique role being the first African American first lady. And it was really [01:37:20] tough position to be in where you’ve got all these expectations and this long history that you [01:37:25] need to follow up with. And I think she did it brilliantly and forged a path that was completely unique to [01:37:30] her, and she didn’t look to anybody else on what she should be doing or should be thinking. But she forged her own path and she forged [01:37:35] her own identity. And that’s really poignant to me. So I’m trying to forge my own identity.

Speaker4: Nice. [01:37:40] Yeah.

Speaker1: Guest Nelson Mandela.

Speaker4: Nice. [01:37:45]

Speaker1: My dad actually met Nelson Mandela as a running joke in my family, because he’s got this big picture of him sitting [01:37:50] next to Nelson Mandela, and he sends it to each of us.

Speaker4: To frame.

Speaker1: Up [01:37:55] in our house. And one of the family friend got married at our house, and he had the picture [01:38:00] at the altar next to the wedding.

Speaker4: That’s my dad.

Speaker1: And [01:38:05] so, yeah, Nelson Mandela, just because I think what he managed [01:38:10] to achieve with the Truth and Reconciliation Committee is just amazing. And [01:38:15] I just, I can’t imagine how someone having that capacity to forgive after [01:38:20] all the suffering that he went through. And I think just the opportunity to talk [01:38:25] to him and just to hear his heart, his soul, his thinking, his mind, just what [01:38:30] brought him to that point, I just think would be fascinating because that’s just and I just I don’t know if I [01:38:35] would be able to forgive after what he went through, basically.

Speaker3: Yeah. He comes up a lot in [01:38:40] these in this question. Yeah, understandably. Understandably. And [01:38:45] he’s the third.

Speaker1: Number three would actually be Angelina Jolie.

Speaker4: You what? [01:38:50]

Speaker3: Okay.

Speaker4: Come on I know, I know.

Speaker1: Everyone I tell you, my husband and he was like, what? Basically [01:38:55] he.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: I’ve always I’ve always adored Angelina Jolie [01:39:00] just because she is actually one of the UN’s biggest philanthropists.

Speaker3: Oh I see, yeah.

Speaker4: Okay. [01:39:05]

Speaker1: She’s a massive giver. She’s a massive, massive philanthropist. And [01:39:10] I have this weird obsession with adoption. And I’ve always thought adoption is just the most beautiful thing in the world. [01:39:15] And obviously she’s adopted loads of kids from around the world. And I just think actually, if I was a wealthy [01:39:20] person and that’s how I would want to do life like her in terms of her philanthropy, [01:39:25] you know, she gives away a huge portion of her income. She’s been a UN ambassador for a [01:39:30] long time. And yeah, she really uses her fame to highlight global causes [01:39:35] and and highlight the plight of refugees. And yeah, she’s. Yeah, she she just. And [01:39:40] what I love about adoption is it’s one it’s like the long it’s the, um, permanency [01:39:45] of it. You know, it’s one thing to give to a cause and keep it distant, but it’s another thing to take an orphan [01:39:50] and bring them into your home and make them your child.

Speaker4: Mm.

Speaker1: You know, and I think that’s that [01:39:55] is a different level of intimacy and compassion and love that I [01:40:00] just really admire. Basically. Yeah.

Speaker3: Me too. Me too. Beautiful.

Speaker4: It’s [01:40:05] my turn.

Speaker3: It’s beautiful. The final. [01:40:10] Final question. Difficult for someone so young. But it’s a deathbed question. [01:40:15]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, children. Grandchildren. Who are you? [01:40:20] Anyone who means something to you. What are three pieces of advice [01:40:25] that you would leave for them and for the world?

Speaker1: So the first one [01:40:30] would actually be a quote. The quote from Michelle Obama, which is kind of like forge your own identity [01:40:35] before the world forces one on you. And I think that’s, again, with the [01:40:40] so much pressure in the world, it’s so easy to lose our way. And this is something that I’m constantly having to do to remind [01:40:45] myself of who I am and not get influenced by what everyone else is doing, really. [01:40:50] And I think it’s only by doing that that we really find our true fulfilment [01:40:55] and contentment. Because as long as we’re comparing ourselves to other people and trying to, you know, [01:41:00] keep up with the Joneses, then we’re just running on a hamster wheel, going endlessly. [01:41:05] So yeah, the first would definitely be to forge your identity and tell the world who you are before the world tries [01:41:10] to put you a label on you, put you in a box, and there’s lots of kind of cultural and racial and things [01:41:15] like that that come into that as well, and that I’m definitely trying to instil with my children, because obviously being a minority, you get [01:41:20] put in boxes and things like that. So for me, it’s even more poignant that I teach my children [01:41:25] to be like, you need to know who you are and you need to tell the world who you are before the world tries to tell you. [01:41:30]

Speaker3: Do you think that whole Black Lives Matter thing.

Speaker4: Was.

Speaker3: Big when it was? [01:41:35] What was your. What’s your. I asked you this question, right? The your [01:41:40] experience of being a black woman in dentistry.

Speaker1: I think there’s different [01:41:45] challenges, and I don’t think I would say that. I think that everyone has their challenges and I don’t [01:41:50] think you can compare them. I don’t, for example, like dentistry was [01:41:55] previously predominantly male, but now it’s predominantly female. Yeah. You know, so, um, [01:42:00] there’s a swings around about women still get paid less. So in [01:42:05] that sense you can say across. Is that.

Speaker4: True? Is that true that.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:42:10] that is true. That’s why you still have women. International Women’s Day because we still earn a little bit less than men.

Speaker3: If [01:42:15] that was the case, why doesn’t everyone just hire women?

Speaker1: Who knows? Um, I don’t know, [01:42:20] I don’t know, I don’t know the details of it, but statistically across, um, across [01:42:25] jobs and what they are reporting for income for similar jobs, similar qualifications, [01:42:30] women will still be paid slightly less.

Speaker3: Do you know what I mean? Though? I’ve got 44 employees. [01:42:35] Why aren’t they all women? If that’s the case, if I can learn my costs.

Speaker4: I will do it. I know that [01:42:40] it would be obvious. And you get caught out.

Speaker1: There. Doing it slyly, [01:42:45] that’s why.

Speaker4: Okay. Um.

Speaker1: So. Yeah, [01:42:50] I don’t think it’s. Yeah. I think we have different challenges, different expectations. So I think [01:42:55] it’s hard to be a person basically. So, um, I wouldn’t pit one against [01:43:00] the other, but maybe that’s just, you know, you you answer from your experiences in life. Yeah. And. Yeah. [01:43:05] And these are my experiences in life and I, I see the challenges that men have and I and I’m, I’m [01:43:10] okay with my challenges. Basically there’s some that men have that I don’t think I’d want.

Speaker3: So forge [01:43:15] a path for yourself before the world does. What’s the second piece of advice?

Speaker1: Second piece of advice is [01:43:20] see as much as the world as you can. So a lot of the prejudice in the world [01:43:25] come from people living small minded lives and only seeing things from their perspective [01:43:30] and only having experiences of people similar to them. And I think the world [01:43:35] would be a much better place if more people spent time interacting with people that were different to them, [01:43:40] and the further afield, the better, in my opinion. The more interactions you have [01:43:45] with cultures, with peoples, with things like that, it’s so enriching and [01:43:50] will completely change your perspective on your life and, you know, have huge [01:43:55] impact on your own mental health and wellbeing and view [01:44:00] on life and just happiness generally. But as well as being able to [01:44:05] see the value of humans who are different to you and see the [01:44:10] value of their homes and their cultures and and see things from a completely different perspective, the world would be [01:44:15] just a better place. So I would definitely say travel as much as possible and interact with as [01:44:20] many different people as possible.

Speaker3: And I’d add to that, I’d say travel as much as possible, as young as possible. [01:44:25]

Speaker1: Oh, definitely, because travelling with children is just not the same.

Speaker4: There’s that, [01:44:30] there’s that.

Speaker3: But you know, it’s you get to a certain age where you just want, uh, you just want to go to a good [01:44:35] hotel and. Yeah, whereas when you’re young, you haven’t made your mind up about stuff. No. You [01:44:40] know.

Speaker1: Yeah. You would not catch me in a hostel now. I just couldn’t do it.

Speaker4: Right. Exactly.

Speaker3: What’s [01:44:45] the third piece?

Speaker1: Um, the third thing is don’t let fears [01:44:50] hold you back, because there’s, again, with this whole thing of you have greatness in you. [01:44:55] But a lot of us, we are the biggest roadblock in our own lives. And [01:45:00] I talk more from my own experience. So in the past I had this I had loads of fears and [01:45:05] I just there’s lots of things even like, particularly with my charity, that when I started it, I had loads of opportunities [01:45:10] and I said no to a lot of them, just out of fear, which I’m just so sad about [01:45:15] now. Like as soon as I started it, I got, I had BBC Africa requested to interview me. [01:45:20] I was invited to be a panel on Africa Global Health Summit and I just thought, who [01:45:25] am I? Why are they inviting me all to all these places? Or why would anyone want me there? And I just said no to all these things [01:45:30] that would have.

Speaker4: Been.

Speaker1: I know I now I look back on it, I was like, how much more [01:45:35] could I have done with the platform that I could have had, you know? And it was just pure [01:45:40] fear and I felt like I had nothing to say. And actually it wasn’t [01:45:45] about me. And that’s the thing, you know, fear tells you a lie. And I just lied [01:45:50] to myself, essentially. So that’s the biggest thing. Now I say yes to everything.

Speaker3: I [01:45:55] think it goes full circle as well, you know? Then then the skill becomes learning [01:46:00] to say no to stuff after that.

Speaker4: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [01:46:05]

Speaker1: Fear hold you back.

Speaker3: It’s been so amazing to have you on. It’s so, so [01:46:10] positive. It’s it’s been.

Speaker4: You.

Speaker3: It’s been a wonderful, um, conversation. We’ve gone for [01:46:15] an hour and 50 minutes. Oh, wow. Can you believe that? It’s gone crazy. Um, [01:46:20] thanks so much for for doing this. And, uh, hopefully I’ll catch up with you in [01:46:25] a couple of years time when the charities are.

Speaker4: Yeah. Massive. Send you the link.

Speaker1: In the meantime. [01:46:30]

Speaker3: Actually, we’re gonna have to wait for the nine month old to put her socks on.

Speaker4: I know this. [01:46:35]

Speaker3: Charity can get this.

Speaker4: Potential anywhere. Yeah.

Speaker3: No. [01:46:40] Thanks a lot for doing this. It’s been really lovely time.

Speaker1: It’s been great talking to [01:46:45] you.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:46:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:46:55] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:47:00] and Prav Solanki.

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:47:05] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:47:10] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:47:15] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:47:20] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:47:25] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Speaker1: So I did originally work on other channels I originally had. I originally was a social media manager for all [00:00:05] channels, and I just saw the growth on TikTok, the potential, the reach, um, [00:00:10] and just how you’re able to get into such into, you know, the hearts of billions [00:00:15] of people. It’s the first one of the fastest growing apps in the world, um, you know, almost 2 billion active [00:00:20] users. So it’s very, very, um, you know, growing at a rapid, rapid pace. So I just [00:00:25] think the the growth that I’ve seen and the potential on on app, on and [00:00:30] off app, um, is amazing.

Speaker2: This is [00:00:35] mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental [00:00:40] health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts [00:00:45] Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Speaker3: Hi [00:00:50] everyone. Welcome back to Mind Movers. Payman says I’m not allowed to call it season two, but [00:00:55] because it is a new year, I’m going to call it season two. And we are your co-hosts Payman, Langroudi [00:01:00] and Doctor Rona. Today I have an incredible woman, Eloise Bratt. [00:01:05] She looks like a Bratz doll. Have you ever seen the Bratz dolls? No. Have you never seen them? I look.

Speaker1: Like [00:01:10] a x.

Speaker4: Y, z a Gen x, Gen y, Gen z. No, Gen-X just doesn’t [00:01:15] know about Bratz dolls. Man. What is it?

Speaker3: A Bratz dolls are like those dolls. They look like Barbies, but not Barbies. They’re a little bit [00:01:20] more real edgy edgy than Barbie. Anyway, she does look like a Bratz doll.

Speaker1: It [00:01:25] was like Bratz or Barbie. You always one or the other. I was always a Bratz Bratz doll girl, to be fair.

Speaker3: So [00:01:30] we really want to continue bringing you guys things that are [00:01:35] of value. And I think today’s episode is going to be very interesting because Eloise started [00:01:40] a social media agency. We’re going to go into her whole childhood how she started [00:01:45] it, but she’s in fact my Tik Tok manager for both my personal brand and my Chelsea [00:01:50] Dental brand. And one of the big questions that I get asked is, Rona, how do you do it all? My [00:01:55] answer is I delegate and one of the delegation is outsourcing things, and so [00:02:00] I can spend my time on the things that I love. I love social media, we all know that. But you know, me and Ellie bounce off each [00:02:05] other. She comes, she takes the videos and then she posts them. Ellie has a very interesting [00:02:10] history and heritage within her own family line, and also she got to where [00:02:15] she did through determination, dedication and just really [00:02:20] believing in herself. So today’s episode is going to be about mental health, but also about how to build [00:02:25] a tick tock brand and how to do it. So welcome, Ellie.

Speaker1: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m very [00:02:30] happy to be here.

Speaker3: So, Ellie, I want you to start from the beginning. I’m getting some of my [00:02:35] sort of questions up for the prompts that I, that I wrote down because there was so much information. [00:02:40] But I want you to start from the beginning, and I want you to share a bit about your childhood, the environment that you grew up in, [00:02:45] and how you think your early years shaped who you are.

Speaker1: I, [00:02:50] I think I had quite a normal childhood, to be fair, like I there was nothing in my childhood [00:02:55] that was, you know, not normal to me that nothing. You know, my parents [00:03:00] were together. I was brought up in a loving home. And my mum, my dad, my sister, myself. [00:03:05] Um, so I always had that, you know, that close knit family growing up. My my, [00:03:10] um, parents are like one of four each. So I’ve always grown up with, like, big family [00:03:15] and everyone’s very close. And I’ve always had that nice family, uh, family [00:03:20] behind like family net behind me. Um, so, yeah, growing up, you know, it was just an Essex. [00:03:25] I went to a normal school. Nothing. You know, crazy happened. It was honestly [00:03:30] just a very normal childhood.

Speaker3: So you talk about your childhood being normal, but obviously [00:03:35] on this podcast, we go deeper and really try to spend some time and understanding the psychology of individuals [00:03:40] and how it shaped who they are. I know that your grandfather was a Holocaust victim, [00:03:45] which you’ve told me about before, and we’ve mentioned things like generational trauma. So do you want to tell [00:03:50] us a little bit about what your grandfather went through and how you felt it affected your family throughout? [00:03:55]

Speaker1: Yeah. So growing up, um, obviously, I said that we had a very, very normal childhood, [00:04:00] which we did. Um, because he never really spoke about anything for quite a [00:04:05] long time. And it wasn’t until, um, he got to his 70s, I think, that my, my [00:04:10] Nana sort of pushed him and was like, okay, you need to like, stop talking about it. Um, so growing up for [00:04:15] us, we didn’t really know too much about it. But for my parents, there was always this elephant. Sorry. [00:04:20] Like my mum and her siblings, there was always this elephant in the room. They knew something happened. They [00:04:25] knew sort of what happened, but he never spoke about it. Um, so yeah, it wasn’t until my [00:04:30] Nana sort of pushed him to speak about it that he really started, um, you know, educating about what happened to him. [00:04:35] So, um, you know, my mental health does, like, typically run in my family, my, my mum [00:04:40] and her siblings, um, they’re all sort of, like, suffered bits with mental health, um, [00:04:45] through generational trauma because of what happened to him, because he always had this thing that affected [00:04:50] him when he was younger that he never spoke about. And I think that was always there for them growing up that, um, you [00:04:55] know, he just unwillingly passed it down to them, the trauma.

Speaker1: Um, so, yeah, mental [00:05:00] health definitely runs in my family and they’ve all had things that affected them. Um, and [00:05:05] they’re very, because of that, very, very open with mental health. Um, they, [00:05:10] they all want to sort of like get rid of the stigma about it. You know, if you’re on antidepressants, if you’re seeing a [00:05:15] therapist. So what, like that shouldn’t be something that you have to hide, that you feel that you need to hide. So [00:05:20] I’ve always been brought up around that. You know, if there’s something wrong, talk about it and, you know, share your feelings [00:05:25] and, um, get help if you need it. So that’s always been there. And I’m very lucky that I’ve had [00:05:30] that. I’ve never personally felt, um, you know, that I’ve had to, to [00:05:35] get to that length to get to, you know, speaking to someone or um, or anything [00:05:40] like that. But I know that if I needed to and there was one time where I almost needed to that [00:05:45] I could just chat to my family and they’d be there. And I love that I had. Growing up because [00:05:50] I know a lot of people don’t. Um, so I’m, I guess I’m very blessed that I’ve had that with my family.

Speaker3: Yeah. [00:05:55] Thank you for sharing that. And actually, Payman, do you know what generational trauma is?

Speaker4: I can guess, but [00:06:00] go ahead.

Speaker3: But also like where you’re from, for example, Iran and where I’m from in the Middle East, there were definitely [00:06:05] elements of that generational trauma. So we talked about this with Ellie, who is my Ellie. Um, [00:06:10] Ella who is my therapist, and she talks a lot about generational trauma. So it’s [00:06:15] essentially about the history and heritage of your own ancestors that [00:06:20] has been passed on. And what they’ve recently found is, is that there’s an epigenetic element to it. [00:06:25] So although people think like, is it a psychological thing that’s passed on, how can you quantify it? More [00:06:30] and more, they’re finding in DNA that you can pass on a trauma gene. So it’s really interesting. [00:06:35] And that’s because if you just don’t get over something or something like that. Um, so what kind of things [00:06:40] did your grandfather experience.

Speaker1: In back in the Holocaust? Oh, he was. [00:06:45] Yeah, he he, um, was born in Hungary. Um, he was around 13, I think, [00:06:50] uh, when the Holocaust happened. And, yeah, he went to Auschwitz. He was in the concentration [00:06:55] camp. Um, his entire family died. He was in a quite a religious family. He was like one [00:07:00] of eight. Um, they all they all died. They all got sent to the gas chambers or murdered. Apart from [00:07:05] him and his brother, they were the only two that survived. Wow. Um, and then, yeah, they came to England and [00:07:10] started up a family here. Um, and his his brother sadly died maybe ten or so years [00:07:15] ago now. So, yeah, he’s the only only one left. And yeah, there’s not many survivors nowadays. So, [00:07:20] um, my sister’s actually doing a really amazing thing called generation. Generation to generation, [00:07:25] where she generation to generation, where she essentially goes around to um, schools, [00:07:30] universities, workplaces and speaks about, um, his story. Um, [00:07:35] just because obviously there’s not going to be many chances for him to do it, you know. Yeah. Anymore. So it’s [00:07:40] incredible. Yeah. So yeah, there’s. Yeah. He’s amazing. He’s my biggest inspiration. [00:07:45] Um, yeah. And he came to England. Didn’t know the language. No family. Um, was in like a [00:07:50] boys school, like, grew up in, like, essentially care and started his own business [00:07:55] and got very, very successful. And he is where he is today, you know, beautiful family, [00:08:00] grandkids, great grandkids.

Speaker4: Hearing his story to that change. [00:08:05] Number one, change him once. He’d sort of laid it out. And did it change who [00:08:10] you thought you were as well?

Speaker1: Yeah I think definitely at first I think, [00:08:15] you know, knowing that he was a Holocaust survivor and, you know, you at school, you know, you [00:08:20] learn about things like the Holocaust or we did. We definitely did. And then sort of understanding, [00:08:25] oh, my grandfather’s a Holocaust survivor. And no one else saying, oh, me too was a bit like, [00:08:30] oh my gosh, that’s actually a big thing. I didn’t realise, you know, I was not one of many [00:08:35] that that had a Holocaust survivor as a grandparent. Um, so for me, definitely, [00:08:40] it was like, whoa, okay, this is quite a big thing. And I think that’s why my sister decided to do the [00:08:45] generation to generation because she was like, okay, I there’s not many of us grandchildren that have [00:08:50] got grand grandparents as survivors. Um, but so I think yeah, that’s why [00:08:55] it definitely makes me like, extremely, extremely proud. I think it’s, um, amazing. Like what he’s [00:09:00] achieved despite what he’s been through. Yeah. Um, and then I think for him, I [00:09:05] think he everything that he does and speaks about, he’s a BEM now. So he, [00:09:10] he got, um, he got the medal from the Queen and he’s done all of that. And he everything [00:09:15] for him is just about education. He doesn’t he would never um, he’s got a book out now, [00:09:20] but, like, he doesn’t ever want anything to be about him. It’s all about his story and what he went through. [00:09:25] Um, and just making sure that people don’t forget the the traumas and what happened, [00:09:30] um, to the people of the Holocaust. So, yeah, for him, I think it’s it’s now just about [00:09:35] the message. And I think he’s very, very glad that he was able to finally speak up about it. Yeah. [00:09:40]

Speaker3: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Now I want to move on [00:09:45] to your school days. So how would you describe yourself as a student? Was there any [00:09:50] subjects or activities that you were particularly drawn to, like? Talk to us a little bit, because I know you and I have spoken [00:09:55] personally about it, but I want to share it with everyone else.

Speaker1: Yeah. Um, I think at school I [00:10:00] was never really like an academic person. I was quite chatty as well, a bit [00:10:05] naughty. I was on report card for a while, if, you know, report card back in the day. Um, in [00:10:10] the early years of school, um, and I think that was just because I never saw myself [00:10:15] as, um, you know, academic. I couldn’t concentrate properly in classes. I never felt [00:10:20] that I found an academic class that I truly liked, like maths, science. [00:10:25] I was really not into any of it. Um, English. I did particularly, like, I [00:10:30] actually really liked English. Um, English language. Um, I felt I definitely excel was a little bit more [00:10:35] there and then drama as well, and when that was a subject. So I loved all of that kind of, [00:10:40] um, those kind of topics. Yeah. Um, and then drama got discontinued at my school. [00:10:45] I didn’t even know that that was a thing, so I couldn’t I couldn’t do that anymore. Um. And then [00:10:50] in in GCSEs, English Literature, English language that I actually liked [00:10:55] wasn’t even a subject you could choose. So I ended up doing, um, English literature instead, [00:11:00] which I still sort of liked, but it wasn’t.

Speaker1: Wouldn’t have been my first choice. Um, and, you [00:11:05] know, I was doing all these other subjects and, you know, you’re told, you know, you need to do maths, you need to do triple science or [00:11:10] double science or all these kind of subjects. And I just never really enjoyed any of them. I absolutely [00:11:15] hated, you know, maths. I was never a good maths person. Um, but yeah, English [00:11:20] was okay for me, I liked it. Um, and then I think for, [00:11:25] um, I got okay GCSEs, I got like an A, four B’s, three C’s, [00:11:30] that kind of thing. Maybe a D in there somewhere. I was definitely science or maths. Um, and then it came round to [00:11:35] As levels. Um, and I ended up doing English, sociology, [00:11:40] uh, psychology and politics. Really? Yes. Politics, which I never, [00:11:45] ever would have had an interest in. Politics is something I am probably the least interested [00:11:50] in, but I don’t know if you had at school, you had to choose certain subjects that were in a column, and [00:11:55] you ended up doing subjects just because it was in that column and you had it fitted into the schedule.

Speaker3: But [00:12:00] dentistry, I think, is just way more, um, it there’s way more thought going [00:12:05] into it. Right? Because you have to do chemistry and biology and then you pick the other two and then by [00:12:10] nature you don’t.

Speaker4: Have to do biology.

Speaker3: Yeah you do.

Speaker4: I didn’t do biology.

Speaker3: Well, we had to when I was applying [00:12:15] because.

Speaker4: Chemistry and two sciences. But but but it’s an interesting point and two sciences. [00:12:20]

Speaker3: So it would have to be physics and biology. No. What’s the other sciences. Maths isn’t the science I.

Speaker4: Did [00:12:25] maths, physics, chemistry. Sorry.

Speaker3: Well okay. Einstein I’m sorry. Sorry. So [00:12:30] no.

Speaker4: I wish I did biology because it really put me in a bad situation and Dental school not having done, not having looked [00:12:35] down a microscope. Oh yeah. All that.

Speaker3: Stuff. Yeah. Fine.

Speaker4: But I’m interested in. Okay. So then [00:12:40] did you, did you enjoy politics?

Speaker1: I hated it, I absolutely hated it. I was like, why [00:12:45] am I why am I here? Why am I doing a subject that I absolutely hate just because it fit into a box on a schedule? [00:12:50] Um, so it literally got to a stage where I would be going home crying to my mum, like, what have I done? [00:12:55] And she she’s the one that told me, just, just forget it and focus on the ones that you like. [00:13:00] Um, anyway. And then I, um. Yeah. So I basically failed that. And I [00:13:05] actually did quite badly in English as well, in all of my subjects. I did quite badly in As [00:13:10] levels. Um, I got du as my, [00:13:15] As levels.

Speaker4: You haven’t got kids, have you?

Speaker1: No.

Speaker3: So she’s Gen Z, she’s like, she’s a kid. [00:13:20] You know.

Speaker4: You just have to say that before you say so. Do you think if you had kids or [00:13:25] when you have kids, do you think you’ll you’ll be more of an enforcer as far as studies [00:13:30] than your parents were? No. Were your parents enforcing studies or not?

Speaker1: Um, they were they [00:13:35] always were like, I, they were quite strict in that sense. I wasn’t allowed to, you know, um, you know, go and play with [00:13:40] my friends or do anything until I had done my homework or until I’d done, you know, certain amount of reading [00:13:45] or things like that. So they they definitely made sure I did my work. But I know there’s probably parents out there [00:13:50] that push their kids a lot more. However, why? You know, I clearly wasn’t academic, [00:13:55] so if they did push me more, it would have just made me, you know, rebel. Yeah. More frustrated, [00:14:00] I think.

Speaker3: I mean, I’d be interested to hear Paimon’s view on this, but we talk a lot about, um, the [00:14:05] immigrant motivation. Have you heard about this? Um, so, for example, my parents [00:14:10] pushed me so hard, me and my sister and I remember even being at school and not being able to [00:14:15] have a sick day, ever. I had chickenpox, and my dad goes, you’re going to school. It’s a waste [00:14:20] of £400 today if you didn’t. And we got sent to school with chickenpox and then sent home for being superspreaders, [00:14:25] you know what I mean? And the point is, is because they instilled so much hard work [00:14:30] in us. But there’s also a problem with that, because you feel that the only way that you’re really loved [00:14:35] by your parents is when you’re achieving, when you’re not achieving. Yeah. It’s a conditional love that you get an [00:14:40] A, or you pass this test or you get this accolade. And I think that’s quite dangerous [00:14:45] because as a result, although it’s made me very driven in my adult life, I feel like when I’m not achieving or when [00:14:50] I’m not being validated, I’m not good enough, and I do. I don’t want to blame my parents, because I do think our parents did [00:14:55] the best that they knew. But obviously coming from countries that were war torn and they they [00:15:00] came here for opportunity essentially, and work. They just instilled that hard work. What would you do with [00:15:05] your kid? Well, before you go on to that, my question is, did you have that or were your parents, what were [00:15:10] you first, second generation or what was it?

Speaker4: Yeah, I was six when I came. Yeah. In our house, studies were the only [00:15:15] thing that happened. No, that was, that was counted like, you know, so my [00:15:20] brother was always top of his class. Um, but he was really bad at. He was he was unkind. He was [00:15:25] angry. He was really. And none of that stuff counted. It was only where you were, your studies. And [00:15:30] I felt a degree of resentment because of that.

Speaker3: How did he develop then as an adult? How did that carry him through? [00:15:35]

Speaker4: Well, he still still the same. No, no, no, I wouldn’t go that far. But but but but you [00:15:40] know, in our house points were only given to academic stuff. So this is what I’m saying. I [00:15:45] even though my kids are pretty academic because my I was.

Speaker3: Gonna say, how do you treat them? With their [00:15:50] achievements. Do you think subconsciously.

Speaker4: My wife’s taken the mantle of the studies because they go to French school and [00:15:55] she speaks French? Yeah, yeah. Um, so I can just be the fun guy.

Speaker3: But [00:16:00] do you feel that when they fails at something, whether it’s sports or, you know, whatever it [00:16:05] is, how do you handle that as a father?

Speaker4: I try to I try and be different to to my upbringing. [00:16:10] But, you know, I’ve had people sit here and say, I wish my parents pushed me harder. Yes. [00:16:15] And I’ve had the opposite and many of those. Yeah. And I’ve had the opposite of, you [00:16:20] know, especially with some Asian parents. Right.

Speaker3: And in dentistry, I think it’s rife because a lot of them go into [00:16:25] dentistry or medicine for their parents. Yeah. They don’t go into it because they wanted to. And it’s very [00:16:30] interesting when you hear these people from these very strict Asian backgrounds saying, I hate dentistry, and [00:16:35] they actually end up going off and doing other things, or they totally.

Speaker4: My own brother, my own brother wanted to do something. [00:16:40] He was very good at maths. Yeah. Um, but, uh, he’s now a doctor. Yeah. [00:16:45] He’s still blames my parents at age 54.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Wow. [00:16:50] So it’s interesting how our childhood conditioned us. But back to payments. Yeah. [00:16:55] You know, would you do the same to your children? And do you think that it was helpful the way that your parents [00:17:00] treated you?

Speaker1: Definitely I think I they they were very [00:17:05] strict to an extent. So I think they knew that I wasn’t academic in that sense. [00:17:10] They knew I wasn’t going to do well in politics. They knew I wasn’t going to do well in maths. They knew I wasn’t going to do science. [00:17:15] So there, from their point of view, it was more like focus on the ones that you do like and you do think are going [00:17:20] to help you. Um, so then for, for my A levels from that I, [00:17:25] I dropped psychology, I dropped so I dropped politics obviously I got, I got, I [00:17:30] got using them um, and I essentially decided to take up [00:17:35] um media studies. So media studies was a thing at my school, but it was sort of looked down [00:17:40] upon as that my dad.

Speaker3: Would say it was a woowoo degree. There we.

Speaker1: Go. The BTec, the BTec in.

Speaker4: Media [00:17:45] Studies is the classic one that in, in, in, in that day, people used to think was [00:17:50] for people who didn’t who weren’t very bright. But it’s turned out to be. Yeah. Even the most important subjects [00:17:55] out there.

Speaker1: Yeah, exactly. There we go in today’s age. But yeah, like even much of the.

Speaker4: Media studies you did, did [00:18:00] it have anything to do with social media or was it.

Speaker1: Before? No, it was before. So it was more of actual media. But this is sort [00:18:05] of, I think where my, where my like original love for, for the media side of things [00:18:10] came out and where, where it made me realise you don’t need to have to be doing a maths class or a politics class [00:18:15] to be, to get sent to university, because I did want to go to university. You want to go? [00:18:20] I think I wanted to go more for the experience. Yeah, more for the experience. I’m not gonna lie. I’ve [00:18:25] living on my own, being with friends, that kind of thing. I went to Nottingham Trent. It wasn’t, you know, one of the redbrick universities. [00:18:30] But I did want to go. I wanted a degree and I. And at that time it [00:18:35] was still, um, you know, you had to normally go to university to get a good job at [00:18:40] the end. You know, most jobs were still then were you have to have a degree. It doesn’t matter what. [00:18:45]

Speaker4: You grown up in London.

Speaker1: Essex, Essex, Essex. Yeah. Where abouts? Um, Gants Hill originally. [00:18:50] Yeah. And then I moved to Loughton. Um, and that’s where my family are now. But yeah. So [00:18:55] I, it made me realise like, okay, you didn’t need to have, you know, the politics or the psychology [00:19:00] or the maths to, to to be able to do well and um, yeah. And even [00:19:05] with like the other subjects, you know, I, um, overheard teachers telling me, um, sorry, [00:19:10] I overheard teachers, my English teacher telling another teacher, you know, Eloise isn’t going to pass. Um, [00:19:15] she’s going to fail. She she did. She got a C last year. There’s no way she’s going to, uh. So she got a [00:19:20] D in her A-levels. There’s no way she’s going to do well in her A-levels. And that just kind of made [00:19:25] me determined to prove them wrong.

Speaker3: That was the same with me. Yeah. Um, we had a conversation [00:19:30] earlier, and Payman is probably going to disagree because he’s Payman. And, um, we [00:19:35] said actually with one of my other guests that there is also this poor conditioning [00:19:40] between boys and girls when you grow up, and that if you’re a very loud girl, you’re [00:19:45] really told off and you’re deemed to be bossy. And that was me as a child, like I was that loud [00:19:50] girl. Surprise, surprise. I’d get up in the classroom. I’d be like, like causing a little bit of [00:19:55] a a scene. But I was just like, I had like a degree of leadership. Does that make sense? [00:20:00] And that was definitely not something that was encouraged at [00:20:05] school. In a way. It was like, you have to be the good little quiet girl. And I feel that when you think of like [00:20:10] boys that were like perhaps a bit more boisterous, like maybe they didn’t get as [00:20:15] disciplined or told off as I did in that kind of school environment [00:20:20] if they were bossy. Um, I don’t know. But even just like thinking more of, like, the boisterous behaviour, [00:20:25] does that make sense? It was more like boys will be boys, that kind of thing, you know, which is quite [00:20:30] interesting.

Speaker4: Do you think it’s right that the label is controversial? The label is different [00:20:35] based on who it is that’s doing the thing, you know, like like. [00:20:40]

Speaker3: Yeah, like, go on, go on. Yeah.

Speaker4: Well, okay. Like, if a girl says [00:20:45] I was a tomboy. Yeah. Okay. What you think? What you say to that girl. [00:20:50] The way you label that girl is different to a boy. Just a boy. [00:20:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, why? I mean, there’s a difference, right? Let’s start with this. [00:21:00] Do you think it’s harder being a woman than a man? James O’Brien today. It’s on James O’Brien. [00:21:05] Today we.

Speaker3: Go. Really? What did he say?

Speaker4: He was like a shock. Horror. I can’t believe people think that it’s different. [00:21:10] It’s harder being a man than it’s.

Speaker1: I think it’s definitely harder to be a woman [00:21:15] outside.

Speaker4: Of childbirth, outside of children, just to put children completely, like, crop them out [00:21:20] of the picture. Yeah. To for a second. It’s harder to.

Speaker1: Be a woman, especially in the workplace, [00:21:25] for example, I think thank.

Speaker3: You.

Speaker1: From first hand. From first hand [00:21:30] I can I can tell you the amount of times that you’re, you’re not seemed as on the same level [00:21:35] when you’re in a group of a room with a group of men, you’re sort of looked down upon as your opinion [00:21:40] being you.

Speaker4: Work, you work at Rowena’s practice and there’s a guy who works there. Does she does [00:21:45] she treat you as if you’re not equal to that man?

Speaker1: No. Definitely not. I think it’s [00:21:50] I think it’s more, um. More, um, what’s the word? You know, in corporate, [00:21:55] I think it’s more in corporate settings. Um, you know, and you’re, [00:22:00] you know, you’re looked at as, you know, the receptionist or, you know, the receptionist should be a woman or the PA should be a woman. [00:22:05] Um, and it’s always, you know, the white men in the boardrooms and the women are outside. [00:22:10] Um, and I think it’s hard.

Speaker4: I think that’s a thing.

Speaker1: Now I do, and I do think that does [00:22:15] still happen today. I think I think there are women in in companies now. They are the reason. Just harder. [00:22:20]

Speaker3: I’m not looking right. I’m not. I wasn’t looking at my phone. I wanted to get you some stats. Right. I think it’s really [00:22:25] hard because I have this conversation a lot, even with my male peers and male colleagues, women. [00:22:30] And to be honest with you, Payman, because before I got here, he was like, I’m really worried about you, okay? And all this stuff. [00:22:35] I’m like, I struggle so much being a woman. And sometimes I actually feel a bit like [00:22:40] sad about it because I never thought it was that difficult. And I have to be honest with you, like growing up [00:22:45] with my dad, I was always like a very empowered female. Like, you’ve seen the way my dad is with me and my sister [00:22:50] and my my mom and everything like that. And I think in dentistry it’s so shocking [00:22:55] because what’s the stats? How many women are there compared to men? There’s a lot more.

Speaker4: Just not a lot more. It’s like 53%. [00:23:00]

Speaker3: So okay. And then out of that 53% in comparison, how many are [00:23:05] practice owners? How many of them like run their own thing, you know.

Speaker4: Lower than. [00:23:10]

Speaker3: Lower.

Speaker4: But yeah but that the reason for that listen.

Speaker3: Listen listen listen okay. So [00:23:15] the point is, is that I think that yes, of course, being a woman in [00:23:20] the UK is much better than being a woman in Iran, for example. Yeah, but let’s think [00:23:25] about all the things that are going like worldwide. Like, it’s so sad to think, even in Afghanistan, [00:23:30] that women are being stripped of their education. I know we’re not there. And women of Iran are being murdered [00:23:35] because they’re not wearing hijabs. Like, this is such a sad reality of the world as a whole. Yeah, within [00:23:40] the Western world we have made massive progress. But I still think there’s a lot of things that need to be [00:23:45] done. And I think that there is unfortunately, a little bit of a bias. I’ve even heard men [00:23:50] in the dental industry that say, well, yeah, of course, you know, men are going to be more suitable [00:23:55] to be in a boardroom than women because the reality is women have to have children [00:24:00] and then women have children. They have to take that time off and then the work suffers. [00:24:05] Now, you brought up the childbirth thing already, right? So I get it. I do get what you’re saying, and I understand. I want [00:24:10] to.

Speaker4: Talk about children as well. Yeah. But we starting with outside of children, is [00:24:15] it harder to be a woman in the workplace than a man? I think.

Speaker3: It’s harder being a woman in general.

Speaker4: But. [00:24:20] Well, why? Look. Yes there is. Look, my daughter was telling me three times a day she [00:24:25] has to worry for her safety as she walks down an alley. The thing is, I never considered that. Yeah, and [00:24:30] you know, if that’s a true thing. But listen, I get that.

Speaker3: But I get that. But listen here, like I’m just going to read [00:24:35] you like, this is McKinsey, right? I went on here. So McKinsey. Mckinsey have stated that women [00:24:40] represent roughly 1 in 4 C-suite leaders. And what. And women of colour just 1 [00:24:45] in 16 and saying massive progress needs to be um, massive progress needs to be [00:24:50] made. Made. Exactly. And microaggressions have a micro impact [00:24:55] reality. Microaggressions have a large and lasting impact on women. I tell you, as somebody who has suffered from [00:25:00] microaggression, it scars me and it damages me and it traumatises me. And [00:25:05] I have to sit there and be like, oh, well, don’t make a big deal of it when I know that what [00:25:10] has happened to me is a microaggression, and the way that I’ve been treated has been unfair.

Speaker4: Okay, [00:25:15] but there are certain things that being a man is hard. Totally, totally. You know, it’s [00:25:20] not like a.

Speaker1: I think as well. A lot of, um, men I’ve found are quite [00:25:25] intimidated by a woman, a successful woman. And that can also be a big thing.

Speaker3: And you [00:25:30] might not be paid. But the thing is, is that, for example, it’s really interesting because I might see an amazing [00:25:35] woman online. There’s a girl called Sarah, something she’s, I think, um, Kuwaiti [00:25:40] or she’s from Dubai or something, and she does loads of podcasts. You might have seen a hat, tattoos, [00:25:45] super attractive, lovely. She says, like really interesting, intelligent things. And she works in tech, [00:25:50] by the way, heavily male dominated and is very successful. And you’ll go on the comments and there’s all these men and [00:25:55] I know that there’s, you know, the internet’s the internet with all these men being like, oh, I hate [00:26:00] a woman like this has too much to say. Oh, there we go. Would be a headache. That’s why.

Speaker4: That’s the.

Speaker3: That’s [00:26:05] why we are. That’s why we all prefer younger women. And I’m.

Speaker4: A dick.

Speaker3: Yeah, but I [00:26:10] think.

Speaker4: I do think and there are sorry. There are dick women as well. You know what I mean? There’s good and bad people [00:26:15] around. Yeah. That’s just an idiot.

Speaker1: No, I don’t I don’t think that there’s many women that would comment on a guy [00:26:20] being like, oh, you know, oh, he needs to talk a little bit less like I think that is stereotypically [00:26:25] that does happen.

Speaker4: There’s lots of women who say things about men, right? You know, loads, [00:26:30] especially your generation. They love it. Right.

Speaker3: But the thing [00:26:35] is, is that I do agree with you, and I do think that there really lacks a strong and credible male [00:26:40] role model. I think we really lack good. Yeah. No, [00:26:45] no, but no, but but but what I was going to say was, is that I do feel sorry for men. I do, and I do think it’s hard to [00:26:50] be a young man.

Speaker4: But let’s talk about women. Let’s talk about women. This gender pay gap question. [00:26:55] Yeah. Do you feel it in your business? I don’t like in my business. If it was real [00:27:00] that I could hire women for less than men, I wouldn’t hire any men. Yeah, but I’ve got loads of men working for me. Yeah. [00:27:05] What’s going on.

Speaker3: There? Well, obviously it’s different. I own my own business.

Speaker4: Yeah. So your employees, do you [00:27:10] hire women on purpose? Because they’re cheaper than men?

Speaker3: No, no, I hire who’s good, but also I actually make [00:27:15] a conscious and active effort in my workplace that I have hired. Ellie knows [00:27:20] people from all different backgrounds, all different physicality. It [00:27:25] is so diverse. I’ve had TV channels approach me and say, we want to do a TV programme [00:27:30] about you and your clinic, and I’m like, okay, that’s really weird. They love what I do on social media, but they’re like, we [00:27:35] love what you represent in the clinic. Conversely, someone that I employed in my dental practice, she’s very attractive, [00:27:40] told me that her old boss said that he would only employ very good [00:27:45] looking Eastern Europeans because he wanted to give that vibe in his workplace. Now. [00:27:50] Okay, fine, that’s his own agenda. But that’s not really fair, is it?

Speaker4: Oh, nothing’s [00:27:55] fair, right? So if you’re if you’re if you’re hiring people because of their diversity. Yeah.

Speaker3: No, [00:28:00] I’m making.

Speaker4: You’re discriminating against other people who aren’t.

Speaker3: You didn’t have construed [00:28:05] that. You’ve misconstrued that. You kind of said that.

Speaker4: You said on purpose. I made an active I made a.

Speaker3: Conscious [00:28:10] decision to make sure that I give people of all colours, races, [00:28:15] sizes, etc. equal opportunities. Difference. I’m consciously just [00:28:20] like, I’m just going to hire them just because they’re non-binary or you know what [00:28:25] I mean? I’m hire. I’m making an active decision in my recruitment process to allow for people [00:28:30] of different physicalities backgrounds, etc., and I will employ people based on their merits and [00:28:35] their ability to do the job, whereas some people might subconsciously or consciously not interview [00:28:40] people.

Speaker4: I’ve done it myself. I’ve done it myself. If I’m being totally honest, I’ve done it myself. Okay, yeah. [00:28:45] Um, and you know, you walk into a top restaurant and a beautiful lady [00:28:50] is there greeting you. And you know, that wasn’t by mistake. You know, that was on purpose. [00:28:55] Yeah. Um, we hire models. We we hire salespeople. I’ve definitely done it. I’ve definitely done [00:29:00] it. Um.

Speaker1: I think we’ve. As a woman. Yeah. Like you think about all the things that, [00:29:05] you know, you’re brought up to, that you experience, you know, like from a young age, you’re sexualised, [00:29:10] you know, things like that happen, like, you know, from the age of 12 or 13, I get on the bus [00:29:15] and, you know, I’d have my ass slapped or something. And you just have to accept that. That’s a that’s a thing. Well, obviously you don’t. [00:29:20] But but things like that happen and you know, from young ages, you know, you you don’t realise what you’re doing. [00:29:25] But going to clubs in Mayfair when you’re, when you go, go up to London on a night out and [00:29:30] you’re queuing to go into a club and you’ve got a promoter and you’re all in your dresses, in heels [00:29:35] and you know, for some reason you’re getting in for free and then for some reason you’re getting on a table and then for some reason, [00:29:40] you’re getting free drinks all night and you’re like, you don’t actually stop for a moment and realise like, wait, why is this [00:29:45] happening? And I think females.

Speaker3: Are hyper sexualised from a young age. And if you think about it, even like Britney Spears, [00:29:50] we talk about it. I loved Britney growing up. She was 16 and hit me baby, one more time. Let’s just take that. [00:29:55] You’ve got kids. 16 and there were men in their 30s and 40s, like [00:30:00] going crazy over Britney Spears. And now Britney Spears is what, in like her 40s. [00:30:05] Now I think she’s in her 40s. I’m not sure. And you know, people are like, oh, she looks so gross. I’m like, she [00:30:10] doesn’t look gross. But, you know, at the end of the day, she was so young. And that goes for all of them. You [00:30:15] know, you watch the supermodel program with Cindy and Nicole.

Speaker4: The thing is, the flip [00:30:20] side of that sexualised thing is the oppressed thing. And [00:30:25] I’d much rather have sexualised than oppressed.

Speaker3: What do you mean when you think about your own country?

Speaker4: Just the flip. Yeah. You [00:30:30] know, uh, Iran. Anyway, I’m. You’re saying women are sexualised. [00:30:35] Yeah. All right, there’s that issue. You don’t want people sexualised only. Only sexualised. Yeah, [00:30:40] but the flip side of that is a is a place where women are held back [00:30:45] covered, you know, can’t, can’t dress as they want.

Speaker1: But why can’t women just be women? Why [00:30:50] has it got to be one or the other? Why do they have to be sexualised or oppressed? Why can’t they just [00:30:55] exist without feeling like one of those things is happening?

Speaker4: It’s a good [00:31:00] question.

Speaker5: Ha ha. It’s good. No.

Speaker4: But it’s a good question. Why do you think? [00:31:05]

Speaker1: I truly don’t know. I don’t know why.

Speaker3: I think that the value of a [00:31:10] woman is based on obsessed with women, literally. And I have to tell you that, like, [00:31:15] if I’m honest and transparent as I always am, I had a little bit of a panic attack this year [00:31:20] because I was like, oh my God, I’m going to be 37 this year. And I started feeling all this wrath of [00:31:25] judgement from society that hasn’t even happened yet. But it was like, I’m like, I’ve [00:31:30] not done enough. I’ve not had a kid yet, I’ve not done this. And I was like, I actually just got really upset [00:31:35] and I don’t know why. And I was like, I’m not good enough. And I was like, and it’s just such a sad feeling, [00:31:40] you know what I mean?

Speaker1: We have a time limit as women limit which men don’t have. You [00:31:45] can’t be. You have a kid. You have a kid.

Speaker4: We said, we said, this crop kids are okay, let’s crop kids back [00:31:50] in. Let’s let’s crop kids back in. Go on. Okay. I definitely agree that that [00:31:55] kids affect careers of women. They do? Yeah. Now you [00:32:00] can go two ways with that. You can say why should they? Why shouldn’t the man’s career be affected just as [00:32:05] much as the woman’s? I’m telling you, it’s just not the case. It’s just not.

Speaker3: But biologically, it can’t [00:32:10] be.

Speaker4: It’s just not the case. So then, are you suggesting that there should be a bias, [00:32:15] like, should women with children be paid more than women without children? And should women be paid [00:32:20] more than men? And then, you know, then where does it go. Right. Should, should, should, [00:32:25] should Simon Chard have a handicap in his pay because he’s getting benefit [00:32:30] from his height. Yeah. Do you mean it’s, you know, it’s not an equal playground [00:32:35] even within women. It’s not an equal.

Speaker3: Again, like we’re talking about like the societal [00:32:40] thing as well. Like for example, what should.

Speaker4: We do about it?

Speaker3: No. But like for example, you [00:32:45] said like coming from, you know, a sort of Iranian background, etc., you have [00:32:50] an ideal of like a female body type or like working in the or like living in the 90s. [00:32:55] No, we had this that we had this discussion and I don’t blame you. And it’s the same with my mom. And I’m sure it’s the same [00:33:00] with your parents. And it’s like you just said, like height is something that like, people are like, that’s amazing and [00:33:05] such a great thing, but like society created that. And if you look, it was really funny. Have you watched Saltburn?

Speaker4: I’ve [00:33:10] heard. No.

Speaker3: Yeah. So for example, there’s two. Yeah. Okay. There’s two main actors in it, a guy [00:33:15] called Barry Keoghan. Yeah, he is like basically Irish and I think he’s like five foot seven. [00:33:20] He’s not tall at all, came from like a really working class background. And then [00:33:25] the co-star in it is a guy that I’m obsessed with from euphoria, a guy called Jacob Elordi. I don’t [00:33:30] know if you saw me. I did a whole TikTok on him anyways, and he’s like six foot seven, for example. [00:33:35] They act together and it’s so funny. And Eddie was like, I just think Barry’s so much better looking and more attractive. [00:33:40] And I was like, oh my God, I love Jacob Elordi. But it’s funny how like now, like the great [00:33:45] thing is, is you were saying like we are, the more we start to be open to different things, like a man doesn’t need [00:33:50] to be six foot to be attractive. My fiance is not six foot, you know what I mean? He’s my height, you know? [00:33:55] So like I feel like. But we’re now understanding that like it actually comes in different shapes and [00:34:00] sizes. And although you may disagree like I know you don’t like love Kim K, for example, but she’s still [00:34:05] celebrated as one of the most beautiful women, and she broke the mould, like coming in and being like, I’ve got a [00:34:10] small waist, big hips. And people were like, wow, do you know what I mean? And like, despite that, I [00:34:15] think you’re saying like people shouldn’t. Society made this problem like it was just decided the tall, [00:34:20] white, blonde, blue eyed man was the thing, you know, like that [00:34:25] is like the chosen person. But in reality, that’s just a societal thing that was [00:34:30] put out. It’s not reality. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker4: Yeah, but so what?

Speaker3: But what I’m trying to say to you is when you’re [00:34:35] saying, like, should someone be punished for being that. No, they shouldn’t be punished, but we should be celebrating all the other differences.

Speaker5: Okay, [00:34:40] okay, okay.

Speaker4: But you know, we were talking about gender pay gap. Yeah. And is it harder [00:34:45] being a woman than a man. And you know, there are these odd areas where, you know, the strength, [00:34:50] muscle strength of a woman puts her in a disadvantage. Right. So, like we [00:34:55] were saying, down a dark alley, if there’s a guy behind you, you have to properly worry, whereas I don’t. I just [00:35:00] walk down. I don’t think about it. Yeah. So yes. That obviously. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yes [00:35:05] I could probably bench press. I could probably bench press more than, more than some [00:35:10] men.

Speaker5: Okay. All right, I hear you, I hear you.

Speaker4: But day to day in your job, in your life, [00:35:15] going and buying your coffee, asking people for money, putting things forward, [00:35:20] though, you know, I don’t feel my daughter is disadvantaged compared to my [00:35:25] son in the world. I don’t I don’t see it in that sense. Mhm.

Speaker3: Well, [00:35:30] I think you’re lucky. And let’s hope that your daughter never has to experience some of the things that we have to experience, [00:35:35] because I hadn’t experienced what I would call differences in gender until the last [00:35:40] three years, and I’ve been lucky enough not to have experienced what I thought. But I have. And I think [00:35:45] when you do, you recognise and unfortunate, as you said, Ellie said, but why can’t we just exist? [00:35:50] And I think in my experience now I’ve been like, oh, I’m being, I don’t want to [00:35:55] say used, but I’m only my value is only seen for like the way I look. Can like flogging [00:36:00] something, for example. Does that make sense? And that’s really hard as well, because it makes me [00:36:05] feel like my value will diminish once I get older or lose.

Speaker5: You know, super.

Speaker4: Successful, [00:36:10] right?

Speaker3: Yeah, but I’m.

Speaker4: Not only because of the way there are other pretty totally. There are other pretty dentists. [00:36:15]

Speaker3: Yeah, of course, he tells me all the time, I know that, yeah.

Speaker4: It’s just [00:36:20] there are other pretty dentists who are not achieving what you’re achieving. Yeah. So, you know, it’s not [00:36:25] just the way you listen.

Speaker3: I think we’re not going to sort out the gender pay gap. So I’m going to move on. Right. So so [00:36:30] okay. So I would describe you. You’re not only a social media manager, [00:36:35] but you’re also an entrepreneur. So can you tell us a little bit about the company that you’ve started, which is [00:36:40] Sia and how it was founded, what inspired you to start it and what was your vision behind it?

Speaker1: Yes. [00:36:45] So the company, the company that I founded is sirens social media marketing agency, [00:36:50] and that specialises in like personal branding. And because over the years working in social [00:36:55] media, I’ve just found that people buy from people and storytelling [00:37:00] is what is so important. So if you’re on there, um, on any social media channel talking [00:37:05] about your brand all the time, promoting a product, people just swipe on, they don’t care. But [00:37:10] if it’s people, it’s you that they want to get to know. So if you’re able to get into the hearts [00:37:15] of the people by showing who you are and talking about yourself, that’s the way that that’s the way that [00:37:20] you succeed on social media. And I think I just felt such a connection to that. And I was like, wow, there’s really something [00:37:25] here with personal branding and why was.

Speaker3: It TikTok over Instagram?

Speaker1: So I did originally work on other [00:37:30] channels I originally had. I originally was a social media manager for all channels, and I just [00:37:35] saw the growth on TikTok, the potential, the reach, um, and just how you’re [00:37:40] able to get into such into, you know, the hearts of billions of people. It’s the fast, one of the fastest [00:37:45] growing apps in the world, um, you know, almost 2 billion active users. So it’s very, [00:37:50] very, um, you know, growing at a rapid, rapid pace. So I just think the the [00:37:55] growth that I’ve seen and the potential on, on app, on and off app, um, is amazing. [00:38:00] And I think it’s so important now for everyone. Um.

Speaker4: Take us through maybe [00:38:05] three tips that are.

Speaker3: Before she goes into that though. How was siren born? Yeah. So [00:38:10] because I think one of the big jumps for people to start a business on their own, we’ve they know our story. But how did it happen [00:38:15] for you and at such a young age?

Speaker1: Yeah. So I’ve always loved social media. Always. Um, and I think, [00:38:20] um, it’s always something that I fell into. So, so when I did go to university, I ended up doing journalism. [00:38:25] Um, and I did print journalism, and obviously that was quite a dying industry. So [00:38:30] a lot, which is very sad. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of my degree focussed on, [00:38:35] um, marketing and online marketing and things like that. And social media was a small aspect of [00:38:40] that, and that was where I first understood what sort of marketing was, and I just fell and fell in love with it. And [00:38:45] I knew that was always something that I wanted to do. Um, and then, you know, that that finished [00:38:50] and the first kind of social media thing I got into was in lockdown. I started a candle business, [00:38:55] as everyone did. Yeah, on the side, a little side hustle in lockdown. And [00:39:00] apart from like selling to family and friends, I was like, how else am I going to, you know, get the word out about about this [00:39:05] candle business. And so I started up social media pages for it. So I started posting on Instagram [00:39:10] and, um, you know, then I got got into doing like advertisement, TikTok ads and, [00:39:15] um, social media ads and Facebook and Instagram and understanding what all that was. And I literally just taught myself. [00:39:20] And that was sort of how I really got into like social media thing. So yeah, then [00:39:25] I got my first job in social media, uh, from that. Um, but then, yeah, [00:39:30] I don’t want to obviously mention too many. I don’t want a specific mention.

Speaker3: About what’s.

Speaker1: Fine about [00:39:35] the situation.

Speaker3: Yeah, okay.

Speaker1: Go on. I’m trying to think how I can word it, like how I did it on my own.

Speaker3: Working for [00:39:40] another company, and then and then.

Speaker1: Realised I. Yeah, I can say actually, like, um, you know, throughout [00:39:45] school and everything, um, school and work after that, uh, where I had social [00:39:50] media, my first job in social media, um, like firstly from school being told [00:39:55] to that I was never good enough, that was never going to succeed, that I was too loud getting put on report card, [00:40:00] then going into, um, you know, working for other people. I think I always [00:40:05] had such a business mindset, you know, when I started my candle business. But then I was still working for other people, [00:40:10] and I hated that I was working my ass off for someone else’s [00:40:15] dream. I always hated that. So I knew I was I knew I was better than than [00:40:20] working for someone else. It’s absolutely fine with that. People do that and that’s absolutely fine. Do you think I just.

Speaker3: Feel like that [00:40:25] Payman that they don’t like working their asses off for other people’s dream or not? Do you think because.

Speaker4: It’s it’s the reason why [00:40:30] people start their own practices, isn’t it? Because it’s not necessarily about the the cash. [00:40:35] It’s about the control over what the thing is, right.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: And I think that’s [00:40:40] what I had. And that’s why I ended up, um, starting up siren. I just, you know, I always wanted to do something on my [00:40:45] own. I found my love of social media. I found my love for TikTok. And it got to a point where I was like, [00:40:50] I can do this on my own. And so, yeah. Then siren, would.

Speaker4: You get your first customers? [00:40:55]

Speaker1: Um, who are my.

Speaker5: Came to get [00:41:00] my teeth whitened. And so.

Speaker4: Were you. A dentist?

Speaker3: Actually, I’ll tell you now, what happened was, [00:41:05] is that for some reason, I got, you know, how you get all these generic emails and you’re like, you never respond. But for [00:41:10] some reason, I opened it and the email was literally like, we love your account. We’re a tick tock agency. [00:41:15] We help growth. La la la. We love everything you’re about. So I arranged then for a meeting with the company [00:41:20] that she was at, and then I was like, this is a massive punt. And by the way, it was a big investment. [00:41:25] Tick tock wasn’t that big at that time. It was still like a little bit early. It was just after lockdown [00:41:30] and then I just fell in love with Ellie, like everything about her. Like she was getting my receptionist [00:41:35] to do dance routines. She was like getting my staff members [00:41:40] to do, like, do you know what I mean? Like all that pointy stuff.

Speaker4: Your endodontist was telling me he trended.

Speaker3: Yeah, [00:41:45] yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you imagine? Like, I was even getting Aram, like, you know how specialists are, like, [00:41:50] I’m not doing any of that stuff. And they’re so scared of, like, the professor’s judging them. Yeah, but she got them. And I was like, wow, [00:41:55] this is incredible. And I was like, I need her in house. But the thing is, is that I would always I would never sort of want to box [00:42:00] someone up like she had to fly. And the thing is, is that she wanted to spread her wings and then the company that [00:42:05] she was with it, just like our visions didn’t align because as I said, like, and you know, with enlighten as well, [00:42:10] you either have a choice in business, like you become a big corporation and you lose [00:42:15] the personal touch and the personal relationships, or you stick with the personal people and continue [00:42:20] harnessing those relationships. And the beautiful thing about enlighten is, you know, is that you like that personability, you know, whereas like [00:42:25] your competitor brands are like about the big number at the end, for example, you know, so I think that [00:42:30] and they don’t necessarily they just care about volume necessarily companies.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah. But to be honest, [00:42:35] and that’s the thing that’s like with Chelsea Dental, people are like, do you want 40 Chelsea Dental don’t really want that because I like, [00:42:40] like that special touch that we give people. So as her human touch. And then when she started [00:42:45] her own thing, I was like, right. You know, I was like, I need to find her again. Um, I [00:42:50] need to find her again. And I did. And then Ellie and I started working together, and I recommended [00:42:55] her to all of my, um, friends, and they were, like, astounded [00:43:00] by the growth that they’ve had on social media. And it makes your life so easy. Payman. Because [00:43:05] all of the scripts, all of the posts, everything trending on one page, [00:43:10] done in a day, that’s it. You know what I mean? You know.

Speaker4: So when when you started [00:43:15] TikTok, when was it? What was it? Was there a particular video that [00:43:20] made you think, I can do this? Um, and also what how much of [00:43:25] it is science and how much of it is art?

Speaker1: That’s actually a very good question. So to answer the first [00:43:30] one, I think, um, what was the first one again?

Speaker4: Was there a particular video you made that trended? [00:43:35]

Speaker1: So I think the first one that we did with the first one that we did with [00:43:40] you, with the things that dentists can tell about your mouth.

Speaker3: Oh, that trended, [00:43:45] you know what I’m talking about.

Speaker1: We did too. So we did one with Sarah. And I think that got [00:43:50] that got to like 3.5 million. And then we did one with you. We did a part two because it [00:43:55] did so well. And that got to about 9 million or something. And it was a bit like, oh my gosh, okay. But [00:44:00] I think it’s not, it’s it’s not just the views. Tiktok isn’t just about the views. It’s about building [00:44:05] a community and a loyal community. And, you know, people coming in the comments and like, so yeah, [00:44:10] it’s great to go viral, but to be able to have that community and the people that follow you and come back for [00:44:15] each post and comment and interact and save and share, that’s what is so [00:44:20] great about it. And I think it’s not just the on app consequences, it’s the off app consequences too. So, [00:44:25] you know, you can do a really good video and then you open up the, um, you know, your news tab [00:44:30] on your, on Google and you’re, you’re in okay magazine.

Speaker3: Not just Stewart bags. [00:44:35] They, they did a thing called vaping tongue. Stewart was contacted by like six different national newspapers [00:44:40] and asked to go on the radio about vaping.

Speaker1: Radio vape.

Speaker4: Vape is one of those trending subjects, [00:44:45] isn’t it?

Speaker5: Yeah. Vaping people want to send.

Speaker4: It to people to say stop vaping.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: So all that [00:44:50] kind of stuff and, you know, brand partnerships that come from it and it’s it’s not just about the views [00:44:55] and going viral.

Speaker4: But so let’s talk about the science part and the art part. So, you know, in [00:45:00] my crappy little knowledge is all right. First three seconds. Yes.

Speaker1: So the first three seconds. Yeah.

Speaker4: Very important [00:45:05] I noticed when when you do your vids you don’t start with hi I’m Rona. You never start with [00:45:10] the hook. Exactly.

Speaker3: So she always gives me the hook and the negative hook because we want to tell our audience like a.

Speaker5: Like [00:45:15] a.

Speaker4: Sensational hook. So you’ll say something like, can your teeth make you [00:45:20] sexier than you are? Like, that would be the hook. Yeah, whatever. Whatever it is.

Speaker3: Or I think three things I would [00:45:25] never do.

Speaker5: As a dentist.

Speaker3: Says the negative, negative, the negative.

Speaker1: Numbers, they all work very [00:45:30] well. And then you come in with your authority. So the three seconds are the most important. You have [00:45:35] three seconds. Tick tock. The people. Yeah. Scroll exactly. They have no attention span. [00:45:40] So you have three seconds to grab them. But you also don’t want to grab them like in a clickbaity way where it’s like, [00:45:45] um, you know, oh, I’ll say something really important and then not and exactly. And then not follow up with it. So [00:45:50] saying that big hook, um, talking about what it is, introducing who you are, why [00:45:55] are you an authority to give me this piece of knowledge? Um, and then. So keeping them hanging for [00:46:00] a bit longer because the five to second seven second mark is just as important as the three seconds. [00:46:05]

Speaker4: So for the reach.

Speaker1: Yes, exactly. So yes, get them at the three seconds. But then you need to follow it up. So [00:46:10] give them the three the three second hook. Follow it up with who you are and why you’re an authority. Give [00:46:15] them a little bit more information about what you’re going to chat about and then go into, you know, your three things.

Speaker4: And [00:46:20] so I’d call all of that the science. Yeah. What about what about the art.

Speaker1: And the art? The art I guess [00:46:25] that’s the creativity side. So what’s trending and what are people talking about this week? What’s happening in [00:46:30] the news. So for example, um, you know, I did a video with a couple of clients the other week about, um, [00:46:35] Kylie Jenner showed up to the red carpet extremely naturally done with her makeup. [00:46:40] Um, you know, and everyone was talking about how her filler looked so bad. Filler was basically she looked really bad. [00:46:45] Um, and that had just happened. And I jumped on that with a client, um, Doctor [00:46:50] Divine, uh, he actually did it. Um, he did it off the back of my me and another client. So I actually did this with, [00:46:55] um, a separate client, and we jumped on it, and she, she does facial aesthetics, and she’s [00:47:00] basically spoke about how, um, Kylie Jenner has definitely had, like, under-eye filler. It could be a few other [00:47:05] things, but I think this is what it is. And we jumped on it because it was trending and it overnight got to [00:47:10] 2 million views overnight. Everyone talking about it in the comments, everyone sharing about it. So you know it’s [00:47:15] being reactive. It’s all about jumping on things that are um, on trend and being reactive. [00:47:20] And I always say for TikTok, you need to show up and you need to talk about three different. [00:47:25] It needs to you need you need to either fall into three different categories. You either need to entertain, educate [00:47:30] or, um, provide emotion. And I think the audience needs to get [00:47:35] something, get one of those three things from your video for it to do well and for it to speak to people. So you’re either, you know, [00:47:40] doing something really, really funny that’s hilarious and going to go viral and be silly. You’re going on to educate, which [00:47:45] is normally what I do with my clients. You know, they all have something to say. They all have a piece to educate about. [00:47:50] Um, or you need to draw out the emotion and that always does well the storytelling, the pulling at the heartstrings. [00:47:55] You know, you’re very good at that kind of side.

Speaker3: So one thing was obviously [00:48:00] like when I sent Ellie a couple of clients, they’re incredible dentists, really [00:48:05] talented. But, um, they were getting frustrated that they weren’t getting viral. And it was also [00:48:10] like they were too obsessed with the way other professionals would perceive [00:48:15] them. Yeah. Does that make sense? Which I think is a challenge. And it’s like, you know, I’ve got like Doctor Rona Academy now [00:48:20] and loads of like my students are amazing, um, young women and like a lot of them [00:48:25] come to me because they feel like they could relate to me and talk to me about certain things. And it’s really interesting because I’m like, have you started [00:48:30] an Instagram? And they’re like, no, I’m really scared. And I’m like, start the first post with [00:48:35] like a photo of yourself explaining who you are. Like, think like decide on a logo. Do you know what’s the one [00:48:40] thing that holds them back? Dentists from starting social media? Guess what it.

Speaker5: Is other.

Speaker4: Dentists seeing [00:48:45] their work.

Speaker3: They worried about the judgement. The judgement of what other people will think of their [00:48:50] page.

Speaker1: Yeah, that is a massive thing. That’s that’s a big thing that you see that clients. Oh, 100%, [00:48:55] 100%. That’s probably the biggest thing. I actually did a TikTok video myself about the one thing. [00:49:00] What is the one thing that’s holding people back from succeeding on TikTok? And it is themselves and not being able to get [00:49:05] over the cringe or get over the fact that they’re scared that that’s going to flop. And for me, I’ve just [00:49:10] always been that kind of person where it’s like, just post it, like, just fuck it and post it. Yeah.

Speaker3: That’s right. [00:49:15]

Speaker1: Um, just like, just post it. So what? It flops. So what, you get 300, 300, [00:49:20] 400 views, you show up again and you post again. And that is what’s so important. The consistency [00:49:25] showing up and posting. And if you can’t get over that cringe, you’re not going to succeed on TikTok. [00:49:30] You’re not going to do well.

Speaker4: You know what though, Bruno? Yeah. When I saw you start doing TikTok, I was I [00:49:35] wasn’t aware of you today.

Speaker3: But she wasn’t in the picture at the beginning. Maybe.

Speaker5: Yeah, but.

Speaker4: I [00:49:40] took my hat off to you. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s difficult when you’ve got 100,000 followers [00:49:45] on one platform to go on to another platform where you haven’t got many followers and [00:49:50] fail day after day after day and keep going. Yeah, I was.

Speaker3: Literally on like ten views and at [00:49:55] that time going.

Speaker5: At it, making more and more and more.

Speaker3: Dog doctor shady was [00:50:00] like killed it because she was like one of our the dentists first on it and she like grew astronomically overnight. [00:50:05] Like she was the one that started like the turkey teeth sort of chat. Yeah. Um, but I was and I was like, I hate [00:50:10] TikTok. So Gen Z, it’s not me. But then I was like, self-limiting belief. And also [00:50:15] like, are you being a bit competitive? Like, you’ve just got to go on and can I tell you now, I way prefer TikTok than Instagram because there’s [00:50:20] less dentists on there and there’s less of that trolling and that like weirdness on there as well.

Speaker5: Well, I.

Speaker4: Prefer [00:50:25] it as a consumer.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker5: Think it’s much better.

Speaker4: So the algorithm is it’s on.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker4: There’s [00:50:30] something about the algorithm isn’t it.

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s the algorithm is ever changing. But the how [00:50:35] do.

Speaker3: You keep up with.

Speaker1: It. So yeah, anyone that tells you that they know the algorithm or [00:50:40] they’ve cracked the algorithm is lying to you. You cannot crack the algorithm. You don’t know what the algorithm is, but [00:50:45] you can learn to adapt to it and grow with it and understand it. Um, [00:50:50] but essentially everyone’s algorithm is different. You know, what you see on your for You page is the thing that gets you all addicted. [00:50:55] So, you know, if you watch a video about dogs. And you watch the video all the way [00:51:00] through, from beginning to end. Tick tock goes straight away. Wow, they loved that video because they [00:51:05] watched it all the way through. So they’re going to start showing you more videos about dogs. If you comment [00:51:10] on the video and tag someone oh my god, check out this dog video or you share it again. Same thing [00:51:15] and you keep doing it. Things like that. So all this kind of engagement that you’re doing is telling tick tock [00:51:20] and telling the algorithm, oh, I really like that piece of content. So you’ll start seeing more of it and more of it. And [00:51:25] that’s how it gets so addictive. Um, so yeah, but the algorithm for everyone is different, [00:51:30] and it all depends on how you engage with specific content as to what you’re going [00:51:35] to see on your for you page. So yes, you can’t crack the algorithm, you can’t understand it.

Speaker4: But one of the things [00:51:40] is it defaults to the for you page. Yeah. Whereas Instagram doesn’t. Yes [00:51:45] Instagram has it discover right?

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker4: The explore page doesn’t doesn’t. Yeah. Default [00:51:50] to it. So you might go there. Yes.

Speaker1: But I think um for me I that’s [00:51:55] why I, I love um sort of tick tock for top of the reach top of the funnel [00:52:00] marketing because Instagram for me is more about community and how you’ve got your followers and you post [00:52:05] what you’re up to and it’s lovely and it’s it’s very filtered and people can click on it and like it. [00:52:10] Whereas Tick Tock is completely raw, completely unfiltered, completely new. You’re [00:52:15] you’re defaulted to that for you page. You’re going to see things you’ve never seen before from videos.

Speaker3: But I also think [00:52:20] Gen Z are a little bit just more sassy as well as in like, I think that they like to be involved in lots of [00:52:25] different issues and have lots of different opinions, and I.

Speaker5: Think [00:52:30] it’s.

Speaker4: Still a Gen Z platform.

Speaker1: No, it’s not really.

Speaker5: Every all of.

Speaker4: My friends are on [00:52:35] it.

Speaker5: My buddies, the biggest.

Speaker1: Growing age group is like the 25 to 30s in both male and male and female. [00:52:40] Yeah, that’s like the biggest interesting. Um, yeah. There’s like it’s a very, very fast growing. [00:52:45] It’s. Yeah, definitely naive to say it’s still, you know, that dancey Tik Tok platform for [00:52:50] 18 year olds.

Speaker3: I remember those days like during lockdown. Yeah. Horrendous.

Speaker1: It’s not anymore as.

Speaker4: As [00:52:55] a, as a force for evil. So we can see as a force for good. Fine. Yes. [00:53:00] But one thing that happens to me is I go into this like death hole.

Speaker5: Yes. The rabbit hole scroll. [00:53:05] Yeah.

Speaker4: And and time just goes. Yeah. And I worry for my kids, [00:53:10] like my daughter’s not allowed it, but she’s found it on, on on YouTube anyway. Yeah. I mean YouTube shorts, [00:53:15] YouTube shorts.

Speaker5: It’s like, it’s like.

Speaker4: A crappy version of so but but you know, what does it do [00:53:20] to people’s mental health?

Speaker1: Yeah, I think any, any, any consumption of social [00:53:25] over consumption of social media is not good. I think, you know, that can be said for any social [00:53:30] media platform, not just TikTok. I think Instagram is just as damaging. It does. And the average [00:53:35] watch time is about 1.5 hours a day, so it is crazy.

Speaker3: The good [00:53:40] thing is, the good thing is about Ellie managing my TikTok. I spend a lot, lot, a lot longer on Instagram. [00:53:45] Whereas like every now and then I’m like, oh, Ellie’s just posted, let me see how that video’s done. But [00:53:50] I don’t spend hours and hours on it. Do you see what I mean? Like every now and then I might go, but I don’t get into [00:53:55] I get more into a scrolling. And also the messaging service on TikTok is [00:54:00] like a lot less. Yeah, it’s weird. So you can’t be asked, as in, like with Instagram, you can do a whole like just replying [00:54:05] to DMs situation. Yeah. Um, I want to ask you as well, do you think timing matters? Because [00:54:10] you know how people get obsessed not only with what they post, but the time they post as well? Is that important? [00:54:15]

Speaker1: No, I don’t think that’s important at all on TikTok. I’ve tried all the different times I’ve tried, ahm, [00:54:20] I’ve tried 6 p.m.. Yeah, 1 p.m., 6 p.m. I normally do, um, and [00:54:25] it doesn’t make a difference. If it’s a good piece of content, it’s going to do well. It doesn’t matter when you post [00:54:30] it. A lot of people’s, um, follower time that they’re most active is normally around 10:11 p.m. [00:54:35] because they get into bed and they’re scrolling. So people think, oh, I’ll post around 10:11 p.m. [00:54:40] because that’s when my audience is all on. But TikTok doesn’t work like that. The algorithm is slow. It can take [00:54:45] two days for a video to start popping up on people’s for you pages just because something’s [00:54:50] just been posted. When it when your followers were active, doesn’t mean it’s instantly going to do well and blow up.

Speaker5: So [00:54:55] is there a.

Speaker4: Frequency, the number of posts a day?

Speaker1: That is so people I’ve seen a lot of people [00:55:00] that are on TikTok say you need to be you need to be posting 3 to 4 times a day to do well. You know, you need to [00:55:05] be posting 3 to 4 times a day. I don’t think that that’s true. Um, I my clients, for example, you know, we [00:55:10] post like once a day or once every weekday and they still do extremely well, [00:55:15] more like go way more viral and have way more followers and have way more engaged of an engaged community. [00:55:20] Then I think.

Speaker3: When it.

Speaker1: Started, yeah, maybe.

Speaker3: When it started, not now, but.

Speaker1: Now [00:55:25] I don’t think. I think as long as you’re consistent, whether that’s, you know, showing up every day or as much [00:55:30] as you can, it’s I think it’s not taking those big breaks, you know, posting every day and then falling [00:55:35] off for two weeks because you can’t be bothered.

Speaker4: About the fact that, like when something comes up on my on [00:55:40] my thing that I like, right, I’m not going to immediately follow them. I’m going to go on to their page [00:55:45] and see if there’s more of that. Yeah. And if there is more of that, I might follow them. Yes. But [00:55:50] what that means is you end up doing to be successful. You could be quite narrow. Yep. [00:55:55]

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker4: That’s because if I, if I, if she says something. I like, and then I go on to a page [00:56:00] and there isn’t much else of her talking. Yeah, then I’m not going to follow that [00:56:05] page. And it means, like tactically, you’re sort of limiting each page to [00:56:10] a small amount of things. Is that right?

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker3: Well, we tried this as well, like I said to Ellie, because, [00:56:15] you know, I’m like obviously passionate about like fashion and things like that. I was like, oh, I really want to [00:56:20] do like those like, you know, styled with me and get ready with me. And like we did a few [00:56:25] and some of them did okay, but they really didn’t do as well as my Dental ones. And [00:56:30] she was like, listen, we’ve placed you as an educator. That’s why people like your page. We [00:56:35] can’t go too off piste just because you want to do it. And it’s interesting because Shivani said the same as well, [00:56:40] because when I said finally, like you’ve just thrown in 100,000 followers on Instagram, I was like, it’s amazing. She’s like, [00:56:45] oh, I’m not that bothered. She was like, you know, video is going viral. Doesn’t lead to me having more subscribers on [00:56:50] YouTube or like Spotify, which is where I’m looking for it. She’s like, because it’s a video that went viral. She’s [00:56:55] like, whereas I need people. She’s like, the reason you convert to a follower is if someone sees [00:57:00] your piece of content and then they go on your page and they’ll only follow you if they think that your page will provide [00:57:05] value. Just because they’ve interacted with your video doesn’t mean it will, like turn into a follower. [00:57:10] Does that make sense? You know, so I think it’s like important that you understand it’s that typical [00:57:15] thing. Simon Sinek know your why. Why are you building this page 100%?

Speaker1: It’s essential [00:57:20] to have a niche. You don’t want a niche down too much to to like an extreme niche, but [00:57:25] you don’t want to be too broad where you’re like tapping into different things. You’re not going to get followers because people are like, [00:57:30] I’m not interested in this. What are they even posting about? However, if you’re providing a specific amount of value [00:57:35] on a certain topic that people are interested in, you’re going to get that follower base. And [00:57:40] so it’s important to stay consistent and stick and stick within your niche like we’ve tried other things. [00:57:45] And it can work. And it’s good to show other aspects but always come back to that [00:57:50] niche, I think. And that’s I think what’s important to keep that consistency.

Speaker4: Tiktok influencers, are they different to, [00:57:55] you know, you’d imagine Instagram classic pretty girl influencer. Yeah. Oh it’s a different type [00:58:00] of influencer right.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: Because I think again, it’s that whole, you know, Instagram is all about being pretty and filters [00:58:05] and editing. And there are on TikTok.

Speaker3: I’ve seen stunning girls promote makeup.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s more but I think it’s more [00:58:10] about, um, storytelling. Whereas Instagram, you know, you post a video. Yeah, you might do a reel, [00:58:15] but I think for TikTok it’s more unfiltered. It’s more, you know, vlogging style. Come with me today. [00:58:20]

Speaker3: There’s a girl I follow in, uh, um, New York, and she always tell us how funny dating [00:58:25] stories, and she’s, like, doing her makeup. She’s beautiful and she’s literally. So everyone asks me about [00:58:30] the dating app Raya. So I’m going to give you my opinion on Raya, but she’s also doing her makeup. And people [00:58:35] in the comments are like, where’s your foundation from? Like.

Speaker4: I even follow someone you know, she speaks [00:58:40] really quickly. Do you know her? Mad, mad, mad mad. She talks really [00:58:45] quickly, but she’s doing her makeup and she’s talking about some dates she’s been on.

Speaker5: Oh yeah, and they probably.

Speaker1: Talk about how they’ve [00:58:50] got five minutes to get ready.

Speaker3: As well. She does. Those stars don’t take chance literally.

Speaker1: That’s actually the number [00:58:55] one. Um, the number one most loved type of video on TikTok is the get ready with me one night. [00:59:00]

Speaker5: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: So getting ready and chatting. People love it because you’re, you know, you’re telling maybe [00:59:05] a fun story, but then you’re also getting ready and people love to like, find out where your makeup is from and all that kind of stuff. And [00:59:10] it’s storytelling again.

Speaker5: Do you think.

Speaker4: You know Instagram? We know what Dental Instagram is. [00:59:15] Yeah, there’s before and afters. There’s yes, there’s there’s sort of um, [00:59:20] you know, pictures, videos, you know, dentist educating. But we’re not really [00:59:25] sure what Dental TikTok is. You know, there aren’t you know, there’s who’s been [00:59:30] successful on TikTok. Shardae.

Speaker5: Laura.

Speaker4: Laura you little right. You’ve got to put yourself [00:59:35] in it for foodie dentist.

Speaker3: She’s she surged.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker4: Who else. But you know what I mean. If I’ve [00:59:40] got a dental practice and I want a dental practice TikTok page. Are we just [00:59:45] talking dental.

Speaker3: We’re on 21 K now. I know.

Speaker4: But are we just talking? But it’s got to be the [00:59:50] same thing. Education from the dentist? No, no.

Speaker3: Because for example.

Speaker5: It was it wasn’t. It’s not clear [00:59:55] yet. It’s very clear in Instagram.

Speaker3: No, no it has to be. That’s the thing. That’s why Ellie is so great. And that’s why, like Payman, you and I are [01:00:00] very similar in the fact that we’ve always invested in these types of services. A lot of dentists [01:00:05] don’t want to invest in these services. They’re like, why would I pay someone to do this? They don’t see the [01:00:10] value in it. But like for example, the Chelsea Dental one everyone loves like our receptionist, our [01:00:15] TCO. So she does these videos with them, for example, showing their personality but.

Speaker4: Not teeth, right? [01:00:20]

Speaker3: No teeth as well. We show.

Speaker5: Everything afters.

Speaker3: Yeah, we’ll talk about it.

Speaker5: Do them in a different way.

Speaker1: Yes [01:00:25] we do. We normally do like a green screen that sort.

Speaker5: Of pointing to that.

Speaker1: Thing, like showing that the images behind Stuart’s. [01:00:30]

Speaker3: Work, this is Anna’s cleaning, do you know what I mean? But it will also like there’s one of my favourite [01:00:35] videos, Mary, my receptionist, who everyone loves. She gets all these dental tools and she’s like, Mary, [01:00:40] guess I’ll have to show you later. So she takes out the mirror and Mary’s like mirror. She gets out a probe and she’s [01:00:45] like, oh, she’s like, she’s like something to do with the hygienist, you know what I mean? It’s really funny, [01:00:50] really. People like watching that because it’s really funny.

Speaker1: But I what the reason why I love TikTok [01:00:55] for like dentists and in the dental world is I just think they’re. Is people are obsessed with [01:01:00] teeth, teeth whitening, bonding, veneers like people want to see the results. People [01:01:05] want to know, like what they can do at home. Um, to Hashtag Teeth Talk has got over [01:01:10] 3 billion views. Really? Yeah. It’s crazy. When I first did you know that teeth talk. I always used that that [01:01:15] in my videos. And, you know, when I first started it was on maybe like a few million. It’s now on about 3 billion views. [01:01:20] People searching for that, that hashtag turkey.

Speaker3: Teeth is like turkey.

Speaker1: Teeth. You know, when you do a video [01:01:25] about turkey teeth. Oh my gosh, the virality.

Speaker3: So how dangerous do you think it is for your business [01:01:30] not to have social media? One and number two not get on board with TikTok? [01:01:35]

Speaker1: Yeah, I think it’s essential for businesses now to be on TikTok. Both of them. [01:01:40] Both. Um, I think, you know, it’s TikTok is where everyone is at now. Like that [01:01:45] is the platform where everyone is at. If you’re going to be, you know, doing paid ads, for example, then [01:01:50] do them on TikTok. Facebook is dead for paid advertisements. So if you’re doing ads on Facebook, [01:01:55] it’s like, fine. But I think on TikTok, you know, being able to implement, [01:02:00] um, into the sort of TikTok style. So, you know, whether you’re using the TikTok influencers, as [01:02:05] you mentioned before, you know, using your product in their morning routine.

Speaker3: I literally did a parlour video that got [01:02:10] 8 million views organically. 8 million. I’ll never forget that. And why? Because [01:02:15] that cheek retractors and that was my hook, you know.

Speaker1: See, you’re you’re you’re you’re acclimatising [01:02:20] to the TikTok platform. You’re doing.

Speaker5: Something that a lot.

Speaker4: Of stuff off.

Speaker5: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:02:25] really. I’m a bit of a TikTok shocker.

Speaker5: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker4: It’s frictionless as well. [01:02:30] Like from from deciding to buy it. To buy it. It’s like one button and it arrives here.

Speaker5: You get a buyer’s [01:02:35] remorse.

Speaker4: A lot of it’s crap.

Speaker5: A lot of.

Speaker4: It is crap somehow. Yeah. And that’s the thing, [01:02:40] you know, is there a is there room for saying, hey, this thing isn’t crap, I’m selling it on TikTok, [01:02:45] you know?

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely I yeah.

Speaker3: Well, it’s been really insightful [01:02:50] having you today. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us about your journey. But I know Payman wanted [01:02:55] to ask you, um, earlier, and I think it’s a really good way to end. What are the three top things that [01:03:00] you would tell people listening about TikTok if they want to get started or if [01:03:05] they want to understand it?

Speaker1: So I would say number one is to be consistent. [01:03:10] So I think I mentioned a few of these points before. But consistency is key on TikTok. So showing [01:03:15] up whether you’re showing up once a day, if you really want to show up 3 to 4 times a day, great. It’s not [01:03:20] going to make much difference if you show up once or 3 or 4 times, but showing up and staying consistent, [01:03:25] not dropping off, um, getting over that cringe or getting over that fear [01:03:30] of I’m not going to do well. And that’s that’s the biggest, biggest thing that is holding people back [01:03:35] is I’m too scared. I’m too scared. Just fucking post it. Yeah. And and if it [01:03:40] doesn’t do well. So what you go back to the consistency, you show up and you post it again. Um, [01:03:45] and number three I think is this three tips for doing well on TikTok. I think engagement [01:03:50] is key as well. So, um, engaging with your your following and [01:03:55] the people on on the platform. So if you do a post, don’t just come off the app. Um, you know, go [01:04:00] onto your For You page, scroll through, have a look at what other people are doing. You know, whether it’s other people in your niche [01:04:05] or not. Um, interact with them. Click comments. Um, you know, like [01:04:10] it? Make a comment. You know, then they’re likely to click onto your profile and have a look. Oh, who’s this person that’s just [01:04:15] commented? Even if it’s not a viral video, even if that person’s just posted it and they’ve not got many [01:04:20] views, be the first person to comment on their video. Show them that you’re interested. Oh, this is a really cool video, [01:04:25] I love it. Um, thanks for the tips. You know, something like that. Um, so engaging. If you’ve got [01:04:30] comments, answer all the comments. Don’t just leave your followers hanging if someone’s commented on your video, [01:04:35] this is a great video. Say thank you. So interacting because they’re more.

Speaker5: Likely courtesy. [01:04:40]

Speaker4: That courtesy side of it as as sort of like like.

Speaker5: Instagram I. [01:04:45]

Speaker1: Think so Humanises you. Yeah, I don’t think I mean, some of.

Speaker3: Them are crazy. Like when I did the Jacob Elordi [01:04:50] video, this person commented and said, uh, bit gross. Aren’t you old enough to be his mum [01:04:55] or something like that? I would have to be ten years old if I had him as a child, you know what I mean? Like, that’s the kind of. [01:05:00]

Speaker5: Stuff the hate of. Is the hate.

Speaker3: Different? No, it hates worse on TikTok.

Speaker5: Yeah. You can get a lot of.

Speaker3: Melissa’s wardrobe was [01:05:05] like, it’s horrendous. Yeah.

Speaker5: The hates words.

Speaker1: Can get you can get a lot of hate. But that’s the thing I think [01:05:10] if it’s if it’s hate to a like a very, very bad level, then we can like remove the comments. [01:05:15] However, if it’s just a bit of hate, I think it’s great to have it on there, like interact with them as [01:05:20] well and show them why they’re there. Comment is hateful, you know. Don’t hide that. Hide away those negative [01:05:25] comments because you’re always going to get things like that. I think it’s important to keep that, keep them up. [01:05:30] Um, you know, unless they’re obviously very, very bad, I think it’s important to keep them up and, you know, interact [01:05:35] with them and play a bit with them as well. You know, if they say a stupid comment, make an even more stupid [01:05:40] comment back, and you start getting love from the people that follow you, that do like you, that kind of back you up [01:05:45] and it keeps the engagement going. Just thank them. Thank them for giving me the engagement. Thanks for your comment. [01:05:50] You’ve just helped boost my video to hundreds more people.

Speaker3: Yeah it’s true.

Speaker5: So yeah. Interesting. There [01:05:55] we go.

Speaker3: So thank you so much Ellie.

Speaker1: Thank you.

Speaker3: Think you’re mate. I think you’re amazing. And for dentists [01:06:00] that are scared to take that plunge, as I said, I have a fully paid service with Ellie. I bring her on because [01:06:05] I genuinely think she changed my life and managed my managers to continue to manage [01:06:10] my social media and just really like, brings the fun and energy to the team. So hope you [01:06:15] found that useful. As I said, her agency’s siren agency and you can follow her on TikTok [01:06:20] too as Ellie Bratt, thank you so much. Thank you guys.

Speaker5: Thank you.

Speaker1: Bye. [01:06:25]

Dental Leaders – Chris Tavares.mp3

Speaker1: So if you believe there is a God. Nothing so hides the face of God. Than religion. [00:00:05] Because religion is man made. Because by definition, you cannot really [00:00:10] know your God. And you come to describe your God, what your God is, what your God wants to be. Well, then [00:00:15] you’re contradicting yourself by what you say your God is because technically speaking, it is [00:00:20] beyond your epistemic reach to understand or know God. So that’s what the faith [00:00:25] comes in.

Speaker2: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:45] Prav Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Chris Tavares [00:00:50] onto the podcast. I’ve been a long time follower of Chris’s [00:00:55] output. You know, if he ever makes a statement, a one line [00:01:00] answer in a in a post I want to read whatever Chris is saying. I’ve [00:01:05] always enjoyed reading his content. And the other thing is, I’ve noticed that Chris is the kind of guy [00:01:10] that is always chasing excellence. And in the community, [00:01:15] people who sit with him tend to come out of their meetings sort of inspired. [00:01:20] And that’s not kind of by mistake, because Chris has a great [00:01:25] story. He took six years out of dentistry to pursue his philosophical [00:01:30] sort of interests and, uh, became sort of a Jesuit. [00:01:35] We will get into what that means with you. Lovely. Lovely to have you, Chris.

Speaker1: Lovely to [00:01:40] be here, Payman. I think we’ve communicated in the past, but it’s a very, very nice to actually meet you at last. [00:01:45]

Speaker3: I know, I know, we generally start with, you know, background. [00:01:50] Where did you grow up? Where did you where were you born? Where did you grow up? What kind of kid were you? Sure.

Speaker1: Well, [00:01:55] I, I was born in Hong Kong, and I went to the Christian Brothers school when I was in Hong Kong. [00:02:00] Really? I never really studied very much. Um, we were part of the Portuguese boys community [00:02:05] and part of a class of 45. I would probably come in my exams around 39. [00:02:10] And, um, so when I was 15, my dad decided it was probably best to [00:02:15] send me abroad to study. Um, and somewhere in my life, you see, he made [00:02:20] he and my mum made a lot of sacrifices. And at that time, he held that the British private [00:02:25] school system was still the best educational system in the world. My mother was a was a head teacher. My my [00:02:30] father was a senior lecturer. Um, and so they’re very academically orientated. And while all my friends went to [00:02:35] North America, they dropped the bomb on me when, when they said, uh, were you going to England? I said, [00:02:40] what? Where? You know, and, um, okay, so I went to a boarding school in Carlisle or Austin Friars School, [00:02:45] and that was one of the biggest cornerstone changes in my life, because at Austin [00:02:50] Friars, they they taught me how to study and how to discipline myself to make timetables [00:02:55] and study. And I got through my A levels and I sailed through my Dental exams [00:03:00] simply because of the same technique that I use for dentistry. Then from Austin [00:03:05] Friars, um, I went to Newcastle upon Tyne University for five years, dental [00:03:10] school, and then I stayed on. I was lucky enough to get a job as a house officer for one year. [00:03:15]

Speaker1: Um, that made a big difference just staying behind. Then. Then I went on [00:03:20] and had went to general practice for a couple of years in Boston, Lincolnshire. After [00:03:25] about a couple of years, I felt there was something not 100% fulfilling in me. [00:03:30] I didn’t hate dentistry or dislike it. I every day was fine, but I just felt there was something missing. So [00:03:35] I decided to, um, contact the Jesuits. And through a year [00:03:40] of discernment, I became very comfortable that the right thing to do at that moment of time was [00:03:45] to leave dentistry and enter the Jesuit order. Now, the Jesuit order is, uh, is one of [00:03:50] the most misunderstood orders in the world, because if you Google it or Wikipedia, it’ll give [00:03:55] you a 16th century version of it. So I would like to maybe tell somebody more about [00:04:00] it, because what you see on me is Facebook or what everything I am now comes from them, really, because [00:04:05] the Jesuit order was the second turning corner of my life. That made all the difference to me. So we [00:04:10] can explain the Jesuit order either in, in, in the God language, if you like, or [00:04:15] in the laypersons language. And it will become apparent why, why that’s so. So [00:04:20] it was found in the 16th century by Saint Ignatius of Loyola, now [00:04:25] in the 16th century, 17th century, 18th century, 19th century up all the way to [00:04:30] to about. Even nowadays people go to churches to believe is whichever religion [00:04:35] you are. You go to a church to pray, and in that prayer you’re supposed to get closer to your God.

Speaker1: Ignatius [00:04:40] completely turned that upside down in the 16th century. And what he said was that if you [00:04:45] want to find your God, your God is to be found in the concrete reality of your life experience, [00:04:50] not in the building. Don’t pray to a statue, but you need to go out there. And in your experience, as [00:04:55] you reflect on your life experience, you will come to know your God. Now, if you and [00:05:00] the process he calls is discernment. When you reflect every evening on your life experience [00:05:05] through discernment. Discernment is about reflecting with your heart, not your [00:05:10] head. And it works. Um, for for a lot of people. Now, if you remove the [00:05:15] God language in modern day terms, there’s a huge amount of psychology because it’s all about your identity. [00:05:20] Everybody has an identity. Your identity is not to be found in answering a lot of psychological [00:05:25] tests. Or reading psychological books. Your identity is to be found in the concrete [00:05:30] reality of your life experiences. As you reflect on it through discernment, you come to know who you [00:05:35] are, whether you’re in the right place where you should be heading. Then the second thing of the Jesuit spirituality [00:05:40] is very, very important is the word indifference. You should be totally indifferent [00:05:45] to whatever you have external to yourself. If it helps you to be more [00:05:50] of who you are, take it. And if it doesn’t discard it, do not let anything external own [00:05:55] you. Otherwise it will destroy you.

Speaker1: Because if you don’t have it or you strive to get something which is often totally [00:06:00] no help to you and the surface, doesn’t mean you couldn’t care less, but it just means being indifferent to [00:06:05] to various things, your situation or whatever. And you come to know through your identity. So [00:06:10] the Jesuit spirituality really is about helping the individual to find out more of who who you are [00:06:15] and ultimately if they decide. So if you wanted to join the order, you can’t just [00:06:20] join the order. You have to go through a years discernment and through one of their mentors to decide [00:06:25] whether or not you are right for the priesthood, because some people just join the priesthood just to escape from real life [00:06:30] and through discernment and your mentor, this becomes very, very apparent and they will [00:06:35] turn people away. So I was in a Jesuit order for six years. That’s when I did my philosophy and theology [00:06:40] at Heythrop College, University of London. And that was one of the biggest cornerstones in my life. Because [00:06:45] analytic philosophy teaches you how to look at your own life, understand your life, understand [00:06:50] your beliefs. Um, how justified are you? And it’s incredibly relevant to dentistry because [00:06:55] epistemology is how justified are we to believe in evidence based dentistry? [00:07:00] Is it really objective or there are huge subjectivity in it? Then I also [00:07:05] majored in moral philosophy, which of course is ethics. Then the third one I majored [00:07:10] in was was language meaning of words. And that really comes out in listening [00:07:15] to other people communicating with my patients.

Speaker1: And they all say how easy I explain things and how is it [00:07:20] I do understand what they’re trying to say that through comes through analytic philosophy. Really. It’s a very, [00:07:25] very powerful tool for communication, for ethics and for, um, justifying anything [00:07:30] you want. You want to you want to believe in. So after about four years in the Jesuits, [00:07:35] again, I was beginning to through discernment, daily discernment, I began to feel a stirring [00:07:40] in myself. And I just felt that, you know, I’m not in the right place anymore. It’s time to move on. So [00:07:45] I approached my mentor and I said, you know, I’m getting these stirrings. And in most religious [00:07:50] orders, you will find that when the guy wants to leave, people aren’t very happy with [00:07:55] you about that. And it can get quite nasty. Very, very sadly, I’ve spoken to people who’ve had incredibly bad experience [00:08:00] when they wanted to leave, whereas with with the Jesuit Order, it’s all about helping [00:08:05] you to decide where you need to be at a moment of time, whether it is your identity or whether you want [00:08:10] to say God wants you to be there, use a God language. So when I said that, I went through a years discernment [00:08:15] and at the end of the year my mentor just says, I think, Chris, it’s time for you to go. And [00:08:20] so I left with their blessing. After that, um, I saw I needed I [00:08:25] knew, I knew what I wanted to do, I want to do dentistry. That was me.

Speaker3: Can I stop you? Can I stop you? [00:08:30] Can I stop you? Because, um, we can’t go on to dentistry without talking about all [00:08:35] of that that you just you just described. Okay. But, I mean, it’s [00:08:40] interesting because for me, science and religion seem to be in opposition [00:08:45] with each other because one’s evidence based and one’s faith based. Right. [00:08:50] And I’m always interested. I’ve got, you know, family members who are religious scientists, and I’m [00:08:55] interested in asking, you know, what what their position is [00:09:00] with regard to that. But if you had to sort of what comes to mind when I say [00:09:05] that, I mean, what’s your position regarding? I want how they don’t. They don’t really mix [00:09:10] right. They don’t. How do you how do you how do you. Because everything you said is quite secular. [00:09:15] Mhm. So where’s the religion element.

Speaker1: Religion if you want. Well hopefully [00:09:20] I’m not criticising the religious because I’m still religious in a sense. Religion. [00:09:25] Which what a lot of religious people. And I mean, either you’re in a religious order, you’re just a lay person, [00:09:30] have a strong belief is the majority of people don’t actually [00:09:35] understand what a belief religious belief is. And [00:09:40] this is one of the things when you do analytic philosophy, you come to grips with it. So science [00:09:45] expects to be able to carry out a test for experience and come up with some kind of a result. [00:09:50] The problem is, religious experience does not follow that criteria [00:09:55] because by definition, and if you go back to the absolute fundamental definition. Religious [00:10:00] experience. It’s not it’s not open to to [00:10:05] discovery because by definition, you can’t actually say or prove [00:10:10] that God exists because. Because when you say God is all, if any religion says [00:10:15] there, God is all Almighty, all, all this, all that, all that. By definition, it means that you can’t [00:10:20] actually prove it because our human test is beyond it’s beyond the our epistemic [00:10:25] reach, basically. And so that’s the first thing you have to understand is that as a scientist, of course, you [00:10:30] can you can be a very religious person. It’s because science is based on criteria [00:10:35] and experiences of Earth. Religious experience is not the same kind of experience. We’re using the same [00:10:40] word experience, but it has a different meaning. And that meaning is defined within the culture [00:10:45] of religious experience religion, not science. And so they do. Uh, [00:10:50] it’s absolutely possible to, to be side by side. Your mistake is to say the mistake [00:10:55] is for the non-religious person to say, prove to me that God exists. By definition, I can’t [00:11:00] actually prove it. You’re asking a question. Yeah.

Speaker3: No, no, I understand that. Answer that. But but if you had to [00:11:05] sort of. So let me explain to you how my, my brother in law says it to me, and I want to know whether [00:11:10] you think that’s the similar his his point is, you know, that we [00:11:15] are living in this fishbowl and God is the owner of the fishbowl. So we kind [00:11:20] of have have free will within the fishbowl. Yeah. We can do what [00:11:25] we like in there. Yeah, but but God is the owner of the fishbowl. He can, you know, in the end, he can. [00:11:30] He can, you know, I don’t know what that that that’s his explanation. But for me, [00:11:35] the free will side of it and the all knowing side of it, [00:11:40] of are where the real problem is in my thinking. I mean, you know, you can [00:11:45] say, yes, science is badminton and religion is football, and then nothing to do [00:11:50] with each other. And I like doing both badminton and football and it’s beautiful. It’s a lovely thing. [00:11:55] Yeah. But for me that whole question of is there free will, have I got free will? And if [00:12:00] I have then everything isn’t controlled by some mighty power.

Speaker1: Okay. [00:12:05] Your brother in law, the problem with your brother or brother in law is that you are basing [00:12:10] that assumption that God exists in the manner that [00:12:15] he and his religion says God exists. You see one of the things [00:12:20] so.

Speaker3: Humanising it somehow.

Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, I mean, there is a, there’s, there’s, there’s [00:12:25] a the late Jerry Hills, he’s a Jesuit, very, very famous, um, spiritual director [00:12:30] and mentor. He wrote a book called God, the God of Surprises. So if you believe there is a God, [00:12:35] nothing so hides the face of God than religion, because religion is man made. [00:12:40] Because by definition, your God, you cannot really know your [00:12:45] God. And you and you come to describe your God, what your God is, what your God wants to be. Well, then [00:12:50] you’re contradicting yourself by what you say your God is because technically speaking, it [00:12:55] is beyond your epistemic reach to understand or know God. So that’s what the faith [00:13:00] comes in.

Speaker3: What is epistemic?

Speaker1: Oh, sorry. Epistemic epistemology is a study of, [00:13:05] um, experience. So how do we come to know anything? You see. So for so for the, [00:13:10] um, for the British and Pharisees, they believe that all our knowledge comes through our senses, [00:13:15] hearing, touching things. However, um, across the continent, Descartes and all the rationalists [00:13:20] said that our senses are not, are unreliable, and therefore it comes through [00:13:25] reason, you see. So either of those. So number one is so the descartes’s [00:13:30] existence of God is a very good one. Um, for like your brother in law in that because [00:13:35] he, he says that we come to know things through our, our through reason, he [00:13:40] reasoned God into, um, existence. So he’s saying that God is all powerful, God [00:13:45] is all knowing, and God can do everything. Therefore, obviously God must exist. But then [00:13:50] when you talk of existence, you have to define what existence really means. There are two ways things can [00:13:55] exist, okay? And the bogeyman is a good example. The, um, [00:14:00] something can exist within our culture, our language. Okay. And [00:14:05] there’s existence external to that. So for example, the bogeyman, if it [00:14:10] exists because we scare children with that. But it’s just our language, our culture, but [00:14:15] it it exists in real, but it doesn’t really exist in the external world, in the real world. [00:14:20]

Speaker1: So there are two ways God things can exist. And the problem with a lot of religious belief people [00:14:25] is that they don’t realise that their existence of, of their God is actually [00:14:30] is within their language and their culture and their beliefs. Because [00:14:35] you cannot, which is called the anti-realist world, the real world, which is like you and I kind of touch [00:14:40] things and things like that. You cannot say God exists that way. And Descartes mistake was to reason God [00:14:45] into existence just because this plus this equals this God this, then you cannot say it has [00:14:50] to exist as an object, as an object, you can’t do that. So that was that was a mistake they can’t make. And [00:14:55] a lot of religion, a lot of believers do the same thing because they think so. For example, to [00:15:00] say that your God, we are in a fishbowl and there’s some over overseeing person looking into [00:15:05] that fishbowl, controlling things. Where the hell you get that from? You know, I mean, how how [00:15:10] I mean, how can you suddenly say your your God is looking into a fishbowl, you’re trying to save something which [00:15:15] you have absolutely no justification of saying, because by definition, you can’t know exactly what’s going [00:15:20] on. And the problem is scares a lot of believers to say that.

Speaker1: But that’s what faith [00:15:25] is about. If you want to go into the religious, um, world, that’s what faith [00:15:30] is. Don’t ask for proof and don’t certainly provide proof because you’re talking off the top of your [00:15:35] head now. Free will and determination. Do we really have [00:15:40] free will? We can. We can do whatever we want there. Free will is one of those things which philosophers have [00:15:45] kind of debated over the years. So if you look [00:15:50] at, um, Aristotle, you will come to understand a better understanding that we [00:15:55] have and we don’t have free will. Aristotle is my most favourite philosophers, and he has a word [00:16:00] that he uses called eudaimonia. There is no English equivalent of [00:16:05] eudaimonia, but the best equivalent is if you go to a rose competition, [00:16:10] or the roses to me look the same or beautiful, but at least. But to the experts, [00:16:15] one of them looks more beautiful than all the other ones. And that Rose wins. And that’s because [00:16:20] that Rose received all the proper nutrients is supposed to have, [00:16:25] and it responded to that nutrient, and hence that’s eudaimonia. So [00:16:30] Aristotle looks at happiness and our life, and this is where he can bring Ignatius [00:16:35] in and your identity. So eudaimonia means everything in your life.

Speaker1: If you can receive all the [00:16:40] right things to help you to be more the person you are supposed to be, then [00:16:45] you’ll be a very happy person. Okay, so that’s eudaimonia. Now [00:16:50] free will. So given that each of us have an identity, if we are going to believe in Aristotle and [00:16:55] eudaimonia, then you have free will to do whatever you want your will. But if you decide to [00:17:00] go against the grain of your identity. You won’t be a happy person. So [00:17:05] it depends whether you want to be a happy person or you don’t want to be a happy person. You. And there’s no reason why you [00:17:10] why, why? You can say, I don’t want to be a happy person, I just to do whatever I want. And there are some people who unfortunately will will [00:17:15] go against everything. Their gut feeling tells them not to do it, but they’ll still do it, whether it’s a [00:17:20] pressure from peers or whatever. So do we have free will? Yes, we have free. We can do whatever we want. But [00:17:25] if you follow, if you do whatever you want, will you be? Will you be [00:17:30] developing, nurturing your identity, or are you going to be some horrible monster? And if [00:17:35] you want it, will you thrive?

Speaker3: Will you thrive or where you thrive?

Speaker1: You want to thrive or you just want to be a be [00:17:40] a monster? Whatever you want to do. So you have free will. You can either be the person you were, you were born to be and be [00:17:45] very, very happy. Or you can, you can, you can decide to do all the opposite things and end [00:17:50] up not being the person you were born to be. And most of the time, I think people who talk [00:17:55] to people and their dying moments, um, will find that so [00:18:00] many regret not doing certain things, and there’s nothing worse than than just regretting [00:18:05] that, you know, you went against him, you win against your own grain, you know, happens a lot. [00:18:10] So yeah, we have free will, but it’s up to you when you want where you want to end up.

Speaker3: Tell [00:18:15] me, tell me back to, um, when you. How old were you when you actually came over? And [00:18:20] what was it? What was the. I mean, had you ever been to college?

Speaker1: No, no, I [00:18:25] arrived. Um, don’t forget, in those days, there’s no Google. There’s no iPhone, texts, everything. [00:18:30] Yeah.

Speaker3: What did you think when you got out in Carlisle? Which year was that?

Speaker1: Um, 1975. [00:18:35] Um, so so I arrived in Heathrow and I made my way to Victoria [00:18:40] Coach Station. I found my coach, and then I took the coach of [00:18:45] the Carlisle, and I ended up arriving in Carlisle at about 7:00 in the morning. And the [00:18:50] school wasn’t open yet. So I had to kind of hang around at the at the coach station and it was [00:18:55] absolutely bloody freezing. I have never felt so cold in my life. The cold was going through my shoes, into my feet, you [00:19:00] know.

Speaker3: By yourself, right? No. No parents, no parents.

Speaker1: And, uh, and [00:19:05] the first letter from my sister arrived, um, about a week later, and she said that [00:19:10] mum’s driving that crazy because she’s got a world map open, and she wants to know where the plane [00:19:15] is every minute, you know? Um, yeah. So they had to win. So I [00:19:20] wrote a letter back to them, back and forth by letters before. Before, um, there’s any. They [00:19:25] knew how I was. So it was a very different world. I was not I was kind [00:19:30] of excited, obviously a bit apprehensive because I’ve never been abroad on my own before. So I [00:19:35] ended up in this boarding school with a lot of, um, English [00:19:40] people.

Speaker3: Was your was your was your level of, uh, maths and science and [00:19:45] all that a lot higher than the kids in school or or the opposite. Yeah.

Speaker1: I [00:19:50] mean, when I was doing so we did O-level maths, so I was, I was there for the, for form four and [00:19:55] some of the stuff we were doing at form four, we had already done in Hong Kong in Form three. Yeah. You know, [00:20:00] not a huge advance, but a lot of the stuff we had already done in form three. Yeah, because they pushed you quite a lot, [00:20:05] quite a lot out there. But it was a real education for me because when you, when you’re in Hong Kong in 1975, [00:20:10] all the top. Positions is [00:20:15] is held by British people. So I remember one morning [00:20:20] it was a Saturday morning. I opened up the curtain in the dormitory and I just stared there, [00:20:25] you see, and one of the guys came up to you. Are you staring at? I said, there’s a guy there emptying the bins. He sees an English guy. [00:20:30] You know, I just stared at that. You will never see this in Hong [00:20:35] Kong. An English person emptying the bin, you know. And he said, well, you look what you’re staring at. I said, look, there’s [00:20:40] an English guy. They’re emptying the bins. He goes, what do you expect? What [00:20:45] do you expect? You know, the guy’s got to earn a living. You know, it’s it’s things like, this was a [00:20:50] complete education for me, you know, to to not just see it but experience it. Yeah, but [00:20:55] I was a bit apprehensive. I could have gone.

Speaker3: You could have gone either way, right, in a boarding school in Carlisle. But you seem [00:21:00] to like you said to me that there was a defining, life defining sort of experience in [00:21:05] that school. So what was it like the was it was it very strict Catholic school? Was that what it was?

Speaker1: No. No, [00:21:10] not I mean, depending on what you mean by strict Catholic, obviously they have they have to kind of obey the [00:21:15] um, the Roman Catholic Church and their doctrine.

Speaker3: It was a Catholic school.

Speaker1: But but they went thrashing [00:21:20] you and, you know, you tell a lie. They beat the hell out of you and bang your head against the wall. I think that no, they were they they [00:21:25] were very, very open minded. They were there to be, to to educate. But what, what the two [00:21:30] things that made a difference was, first of all, remember when I was in Hong Kong, I never studied, I was one of the bad guys, bad [00:21:35] boys, you know? And yet the first thing they taught me was how to study, um, [00:21:40] how to discipline myself to study. And that was that. That was the thing that [00:21:45] helped me to pass my Dental exam. I flew through my Dental exam. But the second thing, which really [00:21:50] helped, uh, which gave me confidence in myself, was being away from all my naughty friends [00:21:55] and, um, you know, no bad influence and distractions. [00:22:00] I was just there. I was in a boarding school. I thrived just learning myself, [00:22:05] my identity, come out. And, uh, so the other changing moment for me was I was made head boy [00:22:10] school captain. Well, I would not have believed that. You know, um, if you look at my who [00:22:15] I was in Hong Kong, and that gave me a huge amount of confidence, you know, and in fact, my, my housemaster [00:22:20] at that time was David O’Neill. And last year I met him for the first time [00:22:25] in Manchester, and I’ve not seen him since 1979. [00:22:30] Well, I finally found him. Um, and I went over to Manchester [00:22:35] to see him, and that was a really great moment for me.

Speaker3: So that one. So [00:22:40] Dental school y dentistry.

Speaker1: Um, I, [00:22:45] I was always programmed to be a doctor, but I like working with my hands, [00:22:50] you know, and and, um. And I’m just thinking that, you know. And somebody [00:22:55] I can’t remember who it was said, you need to be honest, as if there aren’t a lot of money and you know, all that kind of stuff. And I thought, [00:23:00] yeah, I’m a very people person and I don’t, I can’t, I can’t talk to the patient. They’re [00:23:05] anaesthetised. You know, I’m very much a people person really. So I thought I said and somebody said, well, you [00:23:10] can earn a decent living in dentistry. So yeah, I’ll go into dentistry. But then, as I said, I went to dentistry. [00:23:15] I flew through my dental exams through the teeth.

Speaker3: But what about. What about dental school? Were [00:23:20] you. Were you what, studying hard or.

Speaker1: I studied hard, but I wasn’t a I wasn’t a top student. I [00:23:25] wasn’t in the top kind of 20% or 10%. Not at all. I had to work very hard to get where I am, [00:23:30] whereas, you know. So, for example, because of the way I was taught to to study at Austin Friars [00:23:35] and discipline and make timetables, by the time the final exams came that year, I [00:23:40] had already gone over the whole syllabus three times. Oh, wow. Whereas whereas, you know, you get some some of some [00:23:45] of my, my, my friends who they study the week before and they’ll pass, you [00:23:50] know, I have to repeat things quite a lot to, to. So I had to work very, very hard, you [00:23:55] know. And Dental school was great. I made a lot of good friends there. But the main thing was that Austin [00:24:00] Friars taught me how to study, and I still I still remember the day before each exam. [00:24:05] We were always taught, don’t study, because if you’ve done your work, it will come out. So [00:24:10] I was actually looking for somebody to go for a drink the night before, and everybody was studying. You [00:24:15] know, everybody was studying.

Speaker3: So unfortunately I was in the cramming in all night [00:24:20] group. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. And you and you and but it works [00:24:25] for you, you know.

Speaker3: So then. Okay. What was your [00:24:30] first job?

Speaker1: I worked as an associate. Uh, my first job was as a house officer in [00:24:35] the dental school. So there were six jobs going and about, uh, probably about 30 people applied for [00:24:40] it. So I was very lucky to get it, actually. And, uh, I did prosthodontics, [00:24:45] oral surgery and child dental health so that that had quite a lot gave me a lot of [00:24:50] confidence. Um, I spent a year there. Um, and then I decided there was [00:24:55] to continue to stay in hospital. It would involve a lot of studying to get [00:25:00] my fellowship and everything else. And I just felt, you know, there would be a bit more to life than that, than [00:25:05] just my head in the book. So I decided to leave dental school, and I know 1 or 2 lecturers [00:25:10] that were a bit disappointed I wasn’t staying behind, but so from there I went to general practice. I went to Boston in Lincolnshire, [00:25:15] small town in Lincolnshire. I was an associate.

Speaker3: What was your what was your initial feeling about general [00:25:20] practice? Because I remember my first day of looking [00:25:25] around and thinking, shit, man, it’s like, is this, is this what it is? Is this, is [00:25:30] this what I’ve become? And then the first year, the whole the first couple [00:25:35] of years, very lonely existence, very difficult time, I think, you know, because you lose your, [00:25:40] your, your friend group sort of thing and suddenly you’re this adult. So was it in that period [00:25:45] where you decided you wanted to duck out or.

Speaker4: No, no, no.

Speaker1: I don’t forget I’m talking about night. So, [00:25:50] um, so I’m talking about 1986. I went to general practice. So in those times it [00:25:55] was high time. You work hard, you earn a lot. It was great. Um, so I enjoyed the dentistry, but [00:26:00] but obviously for me, moving into, um, Boston, where I didn’t know anybody [00:26:05] at all seemed a bit crazy. But at the same time, you know, coming from Hong Kong, where I didn’t know anybody [00:26:10] at all. So it was through my life experience, I came to understand that I’m actually quite comfortable [00:26:15] with myself, you know? And there will be there will be times on my field alone. [00:26:20] But I was never lonely in this. As such, because I’m comfortable with myself. I can read [00:26:25] books and do whatever I want, you know, but obviously. But at the same time, I thrive. I love meeting people. I love going [00:26:30] out for meals with people. So I’m not really an introvert in that sense, you know?

Speaker3: I know, but I want [00:26:35] to get I want to get to the moment where you were, you made the decision to stop being a dentist and [00:26:40] go after these philosophical studies and so forth. And you [00:26:45] said you said you were looking for meaning or something. Was that was that the word you used? Sort of. You [00:26:50] felt like there was something more.

Speaker1: Yeah. So, so the process of discernment have actually started. [00:26:55] Remember, discernment is about critiquing your life with your heart, not your head. So I couldn’t put my foot [00:27:00] down or say exactly what, but I just found that, you know, after two years, you know, I had a [00:27:05] nice car, I was on a sports car, you know, I was making money, but I felt something was missing in [00:27:10] my life. You know, something about me. There’s an emptiness somewhere, you know? And, [00:27:15] um, and because obviously with my Catholic background that, you know, and I heard about [00:27:20] the, um, the Jesuits where they run retreats. Now, retreats are silent [00:27:25] retreats. So you go there for a week, you don’t talk to anybody, and one hour a day you come and talk to your your [00:27:30] mentor, your spiritual director, you see, and it allows all the subconscious to come out, you know, [00:27:35] and it was through that retreat that’s become.

Speaker3: Very fashionable these days. You know, Citibank [00:27:40] is going for these silent retreats.

Speaker4: You’d be surprised.

Speaker1: What comes out of you. But most of the time everything [00:27:45] is buried, you know, and I decided I want to I would like to join [00:27:50] the Jesuits, you see. But if you.

Speaker3: Don’t, then what happens? But what? Okay. For the first [00:27:55] two hours, you’re whatever. And then what happens when silent for all that time? [00:28:00] Nothing.

Speaker1: So you are you’re allowed to read, or they might give you a passage from a book or something [00:28:05] to read. Or you could paint, you know, and this is where there’s a lot of psychology you see in [00:28:10] Ignatius stuff, you see. So what will happen is I met my, my director at 7:00 in the evening [00:28:15] and he goes, well, tell me about your day. And because you’re completely on [00:28:20] your own, even meal times, by the way, is completely silent. You go into a big refectory, there’s nobody talks here. And [00:28:25] they’ll say, what do you do? I did this, and what did you find interesting? Or you just talk about your day basically. [00:28:30] And that’s and after about 1 or 2 sessions, you suddenly realise things are coming up and you [00:28:35] start. It just happens to everybody. And through my, my 60s as Jesuits, I became a director [00:28:40] myself.

Speaker3: Yeah, but what do you mean? Things are coming out. Things about your life. About what? About. Yeah.

Speaker1: So? [00:28:45] So. Well, let’s think, um, nothing. What have you been [00:28:50] thinking? And when in through discernment, when you have made the right choice. Are you aware [00:28:55] of something? And this is 100%. You experience an immense peace in yourself. [00:29:00] And you know, the choice is right, you know. And and so sometimes they’ll start talking [00:29:05] about things and um, and obviously my, my purpose of that was do I, should I be joining the [00:29:10] Jesuits. That was the main question. You’re going to the retreat with, you know, and so what’s happened during [00:29:15] the day? I said, well, I walked around the town, I read, I read about this and any thoughts, anything come up. And [00:29:20] I can’t remember this, by the way, so far back. But he’ll talk about that and eventually, going from what you have said, [00:29:25] they take it further. You might read another thing and then eventually he says, what do you think? And I [00:29:30] think, yeah, I think, you know, the right thing is, is to. I’m ready [00:29:35] to join the Jesuits, however. You might be ready to join the Jesuit, the Jesuit not ready to to [00:29:40] to accept you that. So after that retreat, you didn’t have to go through a whole year of discernment with another director, [00:29:45] where every month you see them because you’re about to make a big change in your life. If you use the [00:29:50] God language the Jesuits wants to know, is this where God wants you? If you want to use [00:29:55] the laypersons language, you want to know whether your identity lies in joining them. At this [00:30:00] moment of time. Nothing is for nothing is definite or forever. And after one year my director [00:30:05] says, yeah, you know, how do you feel about the decision? I said, I feel incredibly at ease with it now, very peaceful [00:30:10] and everything. So. So I joined. You know, it doesn’t mean I’m supposed to stay there forever, because discernment [00:30:15] goes on for the rest of your life. And hopefully by through discernment, you [00:30:20] will start making changes in direction, guided by your life experience and your reflection [00:30:25] of your guide experience. As you become more of who you are supposed to be.

Speaker4: Well.

Speaker3: And [00:30:30] then the links to ethics and dentistry [00:30:35] and what is ethics? Yeah, expand on that.

Speaker1: Okay. So [00:30:40] the epistemology is the study of belief. And and what’s the difference [00:30:45] between knowing something and believing something to be real. You see analytic [00:30:50] philosophy really looks into those two aspects. So for [00:30:55] example, if a patient says to me, if you do my root canal, you’re going to charge me £600. [00:31:00] So that’s going to get rid of my get rid of my pain, isn’t it? Now many people just say yes [00:31:05] because they have every confidence in endodontic techniques and science. I would say [00:31:10] no, I don’t know. It’s going to do. I believe it will. I got strong reason for believing that it will. So the language [00:31:15] you use is very, very important. And that keeps me out of trouble in the dental surgery because I’m very quick [00:31:20] at understanding. So. So one of the things I learned is that, you know, analytic philosophy, [00:31:25] with our seminars and everything, we must learn to listen [00:31:30] for the purpose of understanding, not just the reply, the problem. Many mistakes [00:31:35] young dentists use is that they reply. And I’m trying, listening to the patient. And what the patient [00:31:40] is basically saying is that are you giving me a 100% cast iron guarantee? No. And I come [00:31:45] straight out. I can’t guarantee that, you know, and I sometimes will say to that if I do this procedure and [00:31:50] I’m going to charge you £6,000, I would like to say to you that in ten years time, all those all that [00:31:55] teeth will still be there. I can’t, because it’s a very dynamic process going, going in your mouth.

Speaker1: And unless you [00:32:00] you do your part, it’s not going to last ten years. So you analyse that set of [00:32:05] beliefs and knowledge. Now ethics is very, very important because ethics is a word that is [00:32:10] thrown around and I include I totally include our our people in authority, [00:32:15] regulators, NHS England, whatever. It’s a word that’s thrown around like a punch line, you [00:32:20] know, and people have a very linear way of looking at ethics. One plus one equals [00:32:25] two. If you do this and you do that, you are wrong. Ethics is a three dimensional thing. [00:32:30] You have to look at this breadth and its depth. And one of the most important, the [00:32:35] ethics I buy into is that, you know, ethics is all about carrying out the [00:32:40] morally right action leading to a morally good [00:32:45] state of affairs. That’s very, very important because it’s not this [00:32:50] is a Tum that I coined. It’s called what it’s called sniper ethics. And a good example of [00:32:55] sniper ethics is what prevents people leaving the NHS going private. [00:33:00] I gave a talk on this once which was quite well received. So sniper ethics basically is [00:33:05] a sniper was once, um, interviewed. Do you find it easy to kill somebody? [00:33:10] And his reply was absolutely fascinating. He said, if you look through a sniper [00:33:15] scope, all you see is that little area that you’re going to shoot. The sniper scope [00:33:20] removes everything around that person. So there could be children running around, [00:33:25] there could be family around.

Speaker1: You don’t see or hear any of that. All you see is a little bit of a head, and therefore [00:33:30] it removes everything. And you just shoot because it’s just an object. Now, sniper ethics is exactly the same [00:33:35] thing. This is where you decide, let’s say, for example, it’s unethical [00:33:40] to go private because what about these 282 has been with us all our lives? [00:33:45] Um, it would be wrong to to leave them. But what about then? You have an ethical [00:33:50] responsibility to yourself, to your staff, to to your children. [00:33:55] And, you know, and not just for those two people. So. So why would you not leave the NHS [00:34:00] at the moment you are going through mental stress, which you can’t provide. I mean, I know people ten years [00:34:05] qualified, they still don’t own their own house. In 1984 [00:34:10] I worked for two years and I bought a house. Now it’s ridiculous that, you know. And secondly is [00:34:15] that, um, if you look at ethics, one of the most important things is the Hippocratic Oath. The Hippocratic [00:34:20] Oath itself does not actually say first, do no harm. The original Hippocratic [00:34:25] Oath is miles long. Over the years and centuries, it’s been shortened, and eventually somebody [00:34:30] just disappears to no harm. Therefore, ethically, no clinician should [00:34:35] be working under a system that does not satisfy the Hippocratic Oath. First, do [00:34:40] no harm when you work under a system that’s causing harm to the clinicians themselves, [00:34:45] to their families, how can that be ethical? So you have absolutely no, you [00:34:50] know, you have a bigger responsibility towards your loved ones.

Speaker1: So therefore you should not have to work under a system [00:34:55] that itself expects you to to live under the Hippocratic Oath. But the system [00:35:00] itself does not obey the Hippocratic Oath. That’s just ridiculous. So I can give a very good, [00:35:05] sound ethical argument why it is totally ethical for you to leave the NHS [00:35:10] and and go private, and ultimately is because ethical decisions [00:35:15] is a matter of prioritising your values. Always put your family and yourself [00:35:20] first, you know, and your staff next. Never put a patient above yourself or your [00:35:25] family. Never put a system above yourself or your family. And hence [00:35:30] ethics is all about looking at the carrying out the right, morally right action [00:35:35] leading to a morally good state of affairs. It’s a state of affairs, you know, [00:35:40] that’s very, very important, not just one isolated thing. We don’t make our rules as we play the game otherwise, [00:35:45] you know, so that’s ethical. And so somebody says to me, is it ethical [00:35:50] to um. So when I when I make a decision to do something for a patient, I ask my myself [00:35:55] three questions and all three have to be yes before I would do it for a patient. First of all, is [00:36:00] it ethical? Second question is it legal? Third [00:36:05] question is it advisable? Has to be a yes in all three. The first is no. [00:36:10] Then that’s it. I wouldn’t do it. You know, even though even if it is legal [00:36:15] and is advisable, I wouldn’t do it.

Speaker1: If it’s totally unethical, I wouldn’t do it. And you’d be surprised [00:36:20] how ethics is defined. Because ethics is about the human being. So [00:36:25] if you imagine the the, um, the caveman period. Yeah. Where the caveman [00:36:30] club was a wham bam and Wallace what the ethics were the law, basically. Yeah. Sometime from the caveman [00:36:35] period to civilisation, social contract theories were drawn up so that [00:36:40] people behave well towards each other. And therefore. And that’s ethics. And therefore the ultimate [00:36:45] subject of ethics is a human being. That’s very, very important. It’s [00:36:50] about the human being, nothing else after that. So therefore some dentists like to focus on the tooth. [00:36:55] I focus on the human being. So ethics is [00:37:00] carrying out procedures in the best interest of the human being, not the best interest of the tooth. Do [00:37:05] you see the difference? You know, because there will be a lot of I mean, there will be some very hardline fundamentalist [00:37:10] dentists who will say it’s wrong to let’s say, let’s say you are the tooth. I mean, this [00:37:15] was a real patient, by the way. This was when about 20 years ago, she [00:37:20] had a very mobile tooth bordering onto M3, but it was M2. It was quite mobile and [00:37:25] she was in her 70s or 80s. And she came in and she said, it [00:37:30] looks horrible, Chris, you know, and, um, I like it crowned. And [00:37:35] I’m looking at this very mobile tooth. Now, if I hadn’t done philosophy, I would have said, no, you’re going [00:37:40] to lose that tooth in three months, you know, and I can’t charge you, you know, £300 for [00:37:45] it at that time, you know.

Speaker1: However, I’m not looking at the tooth. I’m looking at the person [00:37:50] behind the tooth. And to her she’s, she says, I know I might not [00:37:55] live for another month of the year, but I really would like to go out with a, with a nice [00:38:00] tooth. And I say, what if it even lasts a month? I’ll be very happy with that, Chris, because nobody would do it for me [00:38:05] and for me. I crowned it for her. She died, I think, within [00:38:10] the year, I think, um, but the main thing was that one of her relatives said, um, [00:38:15] thank you for doing the tooth. Now that’s ethics, because the [00:38:20] subject, the ultimate of ethics, is a human being, not an inanimate object like a [00:38:25] tooth, you know? And a lot of times, you know, I’ve done things which, technically speaking, [00:38:30] would probably be not good from a dental perspective. But when you have consent, [00:38:35] this comes down to consent. Really. Ethics and consent. Yeah. You know, that’s that’s what that’s where it’s heading towards basically [00:38:40] in that are you consenting for a tooth. Are you consenting for the human being? Because very, [00:38:45] very often we make our treatment plans, many people seeking consent from the tooth because [00:38:50] science would give would back up the consent from the tooth. No, the consent comes from the human [00:38:55] being. Then, you know.

Speaker4: It’s you’re.

Speaker3: Absolutely right. I mean, I think we [00:39:00] had a discussion like this at one of the one of the live events recently [00:39:05] regarding, you know, what, if a 18 year old asks you for [00:39:10] porcelain veneers, would you do it? You know, this sort of question. Yeah. And they brought [00:39:15] up that famous, um, daughter test thing. But when you consent [00:39:20] is the right word. Yeah. Because consent is valid and informed and that by [00:39:25] definition, if you have that, it’s not your [00:39:30] decision, it’s your daughter’s decision. You know that that’s the important thing.

Speaker1: Uh, [00:39:35] actually, the daughter theory is actually very unethical because what [00:39:40] you’re in effect doing is don’t forget the object of, of of ethics and [00:39:45] is about as a clinician is that and in fact, obviously, [00:39:50] um, oh, what’s the name? Um, the ruling in Scotland that, [00:39:55] that, that, that, that kind of says you should use the person to take the risk. Not not the not the clinician. Lanarkshire [00:40:00] versus Montgomery versus Lanarkshire ruling. Yeah. So the daughter test is basically my [00:40:05] daughter is let’s say 18 or 19. So in effect what you are saying is you are you [00:40:10] are deciding for her what you will do. Okay. Yeah. And that comes [00:40:15] down to number one in a court of law, you will not have informed consent. You [00:40:20] know. So when they say treat your patients like I would, you know, say [00:40:25] I would treat my patients like I would treat my own family. And my daughters are 14 years old. And [00:40:30] I said to them that, you know what I said to them when they were 13? I said, you’re now teenagers. [00:40:35] What? What does that mean? And one of them said, um, well, you’re probably going to argue a lot.

Speaker1: And [00:40:40] I said, no. Basically, you are now turning a corner in your life where you are going to discover [00:40:45] your identity and you want to express that. And I will do my utmost best to [00:40:50] respect your opinion and whatever you want to do, I’ll give you my input, but your ultimate decision is yours, [00:40:55] and I will treat all my patients the same way. It’s informed consent. At the end of the day, you know ethics [00:41:00] is at the end of the day. How can it be ethical if you decide what you will do for another person? Forget it’s [00:41:05] your daughter, for another person, you know everybody’s the same. Just because they’re your daughter doesn’t mean [00:41:10] they should be treated differently from from everybody else, you know? Um, and for me, I don’t actually buy [00:41:15] into the daughter test. I went into informed consent. Obviously, you have to then decide at 18 [00:41:20] years old, are they capable of fully understanding Long Terme [00:41:25] what the consequences are now, this is the difference in.

Speaker3: Societies drawn that line. Society [00:41:30] has drawn that adulthood line here. Yeah. As it’s not up to you to I [00:41:35] mean unless you want to diagnose them as they’ve got a mental illness.

Speaker4: Well no, but but.

Speaker3: Which, which [00:41:40] is, which is which is real. Right. There are some people who do have a mental illness who want all their teeth pulled out or, [00:41:45] you know, that exists.

Speaker4: Yeah, but but the thing.

Speaker1: Is, if you listen, I mean, and this is where the Jesuit spirituality [00:41:50] helps because you spend a lot of time listening to people. And then in, in, um, analytic philosophy, [00:41:55] in your seminars, you spend a lot of time listening to people. And trust me that when you start listening long [00:42:00] enough, you’ll pick up something’s not right. Your gut feeling it is there. So [00:42:05] the law has said is okay. But remember my three criteria. The first thing is it ethical in this.

Speaker3: Advisable [00:42:10] one is the one that’s probably well, is.

Speaker4: It ethical?

Speaker1: I would probably say no because I’m not fully convinced [00:42:15] that she has really understood. Is it legal? Yes, because [00:42:20] I’ve got consent and it says she hasn’t understood.

Speaker3: It’s your fault, though. Yeah.

Speaker1: No, [00:42:25] um, there are some people who. No. Because they’re not really listening. They have really decided what they [00:42:30] want the answer to be. And you can always tell how how they answer you. So there’s [00:42:35] a difference between, um, I would like to like to have six veneers, a nice smile. Yeah. But the problem [00:42:40] is it’s going to destroy your teeth. And you might have a very nice smile, but every ten years they need replacing at a huge [00:42:45] cost. Yeah, yeah, that’s no problem. How quickly that answer comes out, it means they’re not listening. [00:42:50] Whereas those who really listen, they’ll be looking you in the eye, look them in the eye, people you know, [00:42:55] and you will see that the eye tells you more than the mouth. And you [00:43:00] can see there’s a there’s a blank look and yeah, there’s yeah that’s fine. They haven’t really listened. [00:43:05] So for me it would not be ethical. It’s legal. It’s inadvisable. No. And this actually [00:43:10] happened to me once. Um, about ten years ago this lady came in, um, 106 [00:43:15] veneers, um, adult in her mid 20s. And I looked at her teeth and, [00:43:20] you know, they actually quite nice teeth. Um, they’re not really how she described them. So [00:43:25] I said very things to her and she said, oh yeah, yeah, I know, that’s fine. No problem. I said, I’ll tell you what, let’s come back in six months [00:43:30] and just see if you still feel the same.

Speaker1: So through my Jesuit training, [00:43:35] this is discernment not doing straight away. So they came in again and [00:43:40] I said, bring your boyfriend with you, please. Boyfriend sits in the corner. I says, I said, Jeff, don’t you think she’s got [00:43:45] a nice smile? She goes, there’s definitely nothing wrong with the teeth, Chris. I think she’s got a really nice smile. [00:43:50] Okay, so I said, I think you have a really nice smile. So after a few more questions [00:43:55] with a little bit, nothing really revealing. Then I says, come back in six months time. I might decide [00:44:00] whether or not to do it for you now. She disappeared. You know, at that time, [00:44:05] you know, this was about 20 years ago, I think she disappeared. And, um, and [00:44:10] all of a sudden I got this letter from from the hospital saying that, you know, so and so has been [00:44:15] referred to us for Saturday, and there was a list of medication, and she was. And she never [00:44:20] told me any of that. Um, she was an antipsychotic. Drugs. Wow. Yeah. So I picked [00:44:25] it up. It’s sort of discernment, you know, that something, you know, I can’t say what it is, but. [00:44:30] And, uh, and then. And then she turned up again, you know, she turned up again, [00:44:35] and sadly, somebody did it for her. Um, but she [00:44:40] really wanted me to come back.

Speaker1: Could you look after her and everything, please? You know, because, you know, and I [00:44:45] get that a lot, you know? You know, people have the utmost trust that I’m very, very honest. [00:44:50] And I do an incredibly high quality of work. But sometimes our emotions take [00:44:55] over their head and they know I have said whatever, but then they just want it regardless [00:45:00] of consequences, and they will pay for it to have it done. And they’ll come back to me and say, look, you look after them, please, because I know [00:45:05] you do better job than the other guy in looking after them, because you’re always honest with me, Chris, you know, and [00:45:10] I get that quite a lot, you know? And unless it’s a complete train wreck, um, there’s [00:45:15] one case where I saw was a train wreck, but in less than that, I’m quite happy to continue to look after it for them, you know. But [00:45:20] I’m very careful what I write down, what I, what I, how I talk to them. Things like that all comes through analytic philosophy. [00:45:25] And they’re very clear, uh, about where they stand or where I stand, you know, but then as I said, you [00:45:30] know, um, consent is the main thing. And what really helped me a lot was that, um, I there [00:45:35] was a gentleman, um, I restored an implant for that I [00:45:40] knew was going to fail on a lawyer.

Speaker3: Well, yeah. So this is [00:45:45] let’s get to the dark part of the of the of the part. Go on. [00:45:50] What a story.

Speaker1: And basically I was asked if I would restore an implant, um, for, [00:45:55] for, for someone. Um, so I said if I’m going to do that, I want to. [00:46:00] I’m 100%. That implant is a restorative driven procedure. [00:46:05] The restorative dentistry. So have a look at it first. So I ask to see the patient. I examined the [00:46:10] patient. And um and I said he needs a bone graft [00:46:15] and a connective tissue graft before the implant goes in, because the bones are in the right place [00:46:20] and the gingival is so thin, um, you’re gonna have problems. So I [00:46:25] wrote that back. And three months later, he turned up with the implant to [00:46:30] be restored with no bone graft, no connective tissue graft, and you could see the [00:46:35] grey of the implant. So I looked at it, and it’s a very deep, deep [00:46:40] overbite. Class two diff two. And, um, and I just [00:46:45] thought there’s no room for the crown. It’s going to be banging on the bloody crown, you see. So I said I can’t restore this. By the way, you [00:46:50] need to go back to your your surgeon, you see. And I said that the implant, the crown crown [00:46:55] will break or something’s going to break. Your bite’s too deep. So we [00:47:00] she went back to see the surgeon and she came back and she says, um, you know, Chris, [00:47:05] um, I’ve spoken to so and so he says it should be all right, that things can be done. Um, so I’m quite happy to go ahead and restore [00:47:10] it. So I says, can I just say if we restore that, it will fail. You [00:47:15] know it won’t last. You know I wouldn’t do that. So. Two and fro four times. [00:47:20] And eventually she came. He came back and he says, um, I know you’re unhappy with that, but I’ve [00:47:25] spoken to so and so now, and, um. And I’m making an informed decision now, Chris, you can [00:47:30] go ahead and restore it. You see patients.

Speaker3: In this or the.

Speaker4: Other, not the.

Speaker1: Patient. I’m [00:47:35] making an informed decision. I’ve heard you. I’ve heard you both four times now. I’m happy that you go ahead and restore you see. [00:47:40] So I restored it. And so in the consent form, basically, [00:47:45] it was fairly clear in my clinical notes that you are in fact consenting to failure. So [00:47:50] that’s totally non-ambiguous here. So initially the [00:47:55] the bone broke with the implant and the crown was moving. Wasn’t my bloody crown. It was a bone that broke. [00:48:00] And somehow, somehow the bone hardened again. It stopped. But then the gingiva was [00:48:05] so thin, there was a little flap of tissue and food was trapping into it. And eventually [00:48:10] he came and he said, surely I shouldn’t be like this. He said, I says, yeah, the gums are a bit too thin. And [00:48:15] the implant surgeon said, he’s got gingivitis. No, oral hygiene is perfect. He’s not gingivitis. [00:48:20] He’s got a very thin biotype. And eventually, with an inflammatory response, the [00:48:25] gums receded and you can see the implant. So he came back and he just said, look, I [00:48:30] shouldn’t be left with this, should I? I says, no, so he says, um, I said, you really [00:48:35] should have had a bone graft to push it forward and a connective tissue graft to thicken the gums. You see, he goes, well, [00:48:40] shouldn’t have been done before, before he was placed. Then I says, so by this time, you know, I’m always [00:48:45] honest with them. I don’t want to throw anybody under the bus.

Speaker1: But after telling you four times, six times you talk to the guy on the phone not [00:48:50] to do it. He said, you know, he did it. So I just said, well, yeah, I’ve done beforehand you wouldn’t be here [00:48:55] now. Then why was it done beforehand? I can’t answer that because I did ask for it to be done. You see, um, [00:49:00] I have no other choice now because I spoke to my indemnity. He says, you know, it’s not about throwing anybody in there. That’s. You need you need to not defend [00:49:05] yourself because you did everything right. So at the end of the day, he contacted his I mean, he’s [00:49:10] a lawyer. So he contacted his lawyers. And basically I got a letter saying that, you know, if you [00:49:15] just give me back my money for the crown, then I’ll just leave it. And I just thought to myself, no, you [00:49:20] know, I warned you four times. And so I brought a very nice letter back to say that I can’t really give [00:49:25] you back the money because you consented to failure. We went through this four times, and your exact words. You [00:49:30] are making an informed consent now. Sure enough, the the solicitor’s letter arrived, [00:49:35] um, asking for clinical notes, you know, and that was my touchpoint. My one and only one, hopefully. [00:49:40] And, um, when their expert witnesses read my notes, the case against me was just dropped. I never heard from them again. [00:49:45]

Speaker4: You know, and so.

Speaker1: Through my philosophy days, [00:49:50] really, um, that I knew I expressed things very clearly. I knew I was science based, [00:49:55] I knew I was confident that, you know, I, I’m on solid ground here because ultimately [00:50:00] the terminology is you’ll be consenting to failure. I’m making an informed consent. So [00:50:05] it doesn’t get clearer than that.

Speaker4: You know, would you.

Speaker3: Say that that’s the most challenging day you [00:50:10] can remember in your career? You know, from a work perspective. [00:50:15]

Speaker1: For most challenging day? No, I mean, I was I was quite all right with that because [00:50:20] in fact, my identity at that time actually.

Speaker4: Doesn’t seem.

Speaker3: Too bad. It’s an interesting story, but it doesn’t seem [00:50:25] too bad from your perspective.

Speaker4: No.

Speaker1: The most challenging day for me was I was I was doing a connective [00:50:30] tissue graft for this gentleman. I knew he likes drinking, you know, and I sent him to specifically, [00:50:35] you know, you’re coming at 2:00. Do not have any alcohol at lunchtime. [00:50:40] Please do not have any alcohol. And it’s all written down. Everything else he goes, yeah, don’t worry Chris, I [00:50:45] won’t, you see. Uh, so he comes in and he looks all right. But then I bent down [00:50:50] and I thought, no, no. Is that. No? And I said to the nurse, can you smell alcohol? She says [00:50:55] no. Okay, so so so so I started doing it. I started making the incision in the palate [00:51:00] to take it from the palate. And he started I mean, it started bleeding like mad, you know, I started pushing [00:51:05] the pressure. He started a lot of bleeding, you see. And eventually I had to kind of stitch it up and everything. And I just said, [00:51:10] you drank at lunchtime. He goes, yeah, I need one pint. I told you not to drink any. He put it more [00:51:15] than two pints. Really? So the blood pressure was up. I had to I had to abandon the whole bloody thing because he wouldn’t stop bleeding, you know? [00:51:20] So that was like panic, panic, panic, panic. Oh, my God, was all this blood coming from. You know, that was my worst day, really, I think [00:51:25] I think, yeah.

Speaker3: So when you decided to go back to dentistry. You [00:51:30] decide to go back and really, really, like [00:51:35] learn everything and be, you know, do the very best that you can and I can relate to it. Actually, [00:51:40] I stopped dentistry for five years when we started enlighten, and then when I went [00:51:45] back, I went back my I took over my wife’s patience when she was on maternity. I [00:51:50] had that feeling as well. You know, that I’m only going to do what I’m very, very [00:51:55] good at. But for me, for me, it went a funny direction. I basically [00:52:00] started, referred a lot, referred everything out apart from the bleaching and bonding. Whereas [00:52:05] for you, for you, you actually, [00:52:10] um, started to learn and, and you know, went on loads and loads of courses. [00:52:15] Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: So so, so, so I can understand I mean normally I would, I’d be [00:52:20] asking, you know, what is it about you that makes you that guy? But I think your previous, your previous [00:52:25] story kind of tells us that. But tell me about, you know, the highlights of [00:52:30] that journey and the lowlights of that journey. And what did you decide to do first? And you know which [00:52:35] direction you went in and which directions you didn’t go in.

Speaker4: And yeah, I.

Speaker1: Came back into dentistry and I knew I wanted to [00:52:40] be a dentist, but I also wanted to improve, change people’s lives. And one of those would be smile [00:52:45] design. At the end of the day, you see, uh, whether it’s by dentures or by, um, restorative [00:52:50] dentistry. So I started doing a lot of courses, so I went in. So we are talking where are we [00:52:55] talking about now? We’re probably talking about 1984, 1990, probably around 1995, [00:53:00] I think possibly. I went to Las Vegas and did [00:53:05] a course on Anterior Composites. I can’t remember the name of the lecturer now. Then I knew I [00:53:10] wanted to do gum surgery, plastic seeing things, and I went to Toronto where the I don’t know whether they exist [00:53:15] or not. The Washington Institute of Periodontology was running a course on pigs heads in Toronto, [00:53:20] so I flew over there to to learn connective tissue grafts and crown lengthening and everything. Then, [00:53:25] um, there I found out that that that the, the god of periodontal [00:53:30] surgery was William Beckett. So in those days there were no DVDs. So I bought the DVD. I bought [00:53:35] the, the the videotape of him and and I really learned a lot from that. [00:53:40] Then I started doing, uh, then of course, this occlusion to be learned. So I, [00:53:45] I’m one of the students who built the late Bill Tomkovicz and British Society of Occlusal Studies, the whole [00:53:50] year’s course on occlusion, all that kind of stuff I learned from them. Then after occlusion. [00:53:55]

Speaker4: How how long.

Speaker3: Was that course?

Speaker4: One year.

Speaker3: Oh, one year.

Speaker4: Yeah, one year, of course.

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:54:00] yeah. Um, yeah. And you actually treat your own patients and, you know, on that.

Speaker4: What was it, [00:54:05] what was the aha.

Speaker3: What is an aha moment in occlusion when you, when [00:54:10] you, when you’re looking into occlusion.

Speaker4: What I.

Speaker3: It’s a ridiculous question to.

Speaker4: Ask. No no no no [00:54:15] no I mean I.

Speaker1: I had a patient who, who hasn’t got treatment but, but he [00:54:20] couldn’t open his mouth very wide, you know, and um, occlusion at the time believed because he didn’t [00:54:25] have balance, occlusion, the muscles in tension. And I remember equilibrating him and all of a sudden his mouth [00:54:30] is dropped open literally twice to opening, you know what I mean? I said, wow, you [00:54:35] know, but the biggest aha moment will come later on. I’ll tell you about prosthetics, because I [00:54:40] learned how to make dentures in a in a very special way from Joe Massad. It was it was [00:54:45] a three day course, I think three, three day course.

Speaker4: And did you do the.

Speaker3: Setups yourself as the dentist? [00:54:50]

Speaker1: No, no, but but what it involves is, um, taking neutral zones [00:54:55] and external impressions and everything. But the main thing was I then combine dentures [00:55:00] and restorative dentistry, um, and smile design. And one of the things [00:55:05] I learned from Jim was how the setting of the setting up of the teeth to a certain pronunciation, you see, [00:55:10] and I had this 80 year old lady, I made her a fool. Fools. And [00:55:15] a trillion. A trillion, by the way, my train comes back on an articulated, and I actually [00:55:20] moved the teeth around because I say to my patients that I guarantee you within 30s you’ll [00:55:25] be speaking perfectly. I guarantee that I do, and they all do. So [00:55:30] if I’m not articulate, I put the teeth in the mouth. I said, can you can you read this passage, please? And she started [00:55:35] reading it and I could hear a lisp somewhere, you see. So I looked underneath to see how the teeth were [00:55:40] actually, um, interacting. And I find it was a lateral upper right lateral. So I twisted the lateral [00:55:45] by about 30 degrees. So she had a twisted lateral. And then she started reading, oh that’s better. Now it’s gone. [00:55:50] I said, okay, I says, when you in your own she’s 80 years old. Remember I said in your own in your younger days, did [00:55:55] you have a twisted tooth? I have no idea. So I said, right. Anyway, let’s get your husband in now, um, [00:56:00] and see what he thinks. So. So he sits down, I says, I says, you know, um, Geoffrey, [00:56:05] Martha’s going to read a passage to you.

Speaker1: I want you to see if you can understand what she’s saying. She [00:56:10] read about four lines, and all of a sudden he got up and moved his face right up to her face [00:56:15] and looked at the last row, and he said, I, you had a tooth like that when we got married, [00:56:20] you know? And I thought, wow, I mean, that was like, wow, I’m going to [00:56:25] build a shrine to you. So she says, what, what what are you talking about? So I showed her the mirror. Then I showed her the mirror, I says. You [00:56:30] got a twisted two, didn’t you? Um. That’s why the lift has gone. Now is how your mouth is moving. And [00:56:35] she turned to the husband and she just goes, yeah. And don’t forget, they got married when they were in their 19 [00:56:40] or 20. And she said, yeah, when we were courting, you had a tooth like that. Your natural teeth. It was twisted. [00:56:45] So I said to her, so we can either give you a perfectly straight teeth, you got a slight lisp, or [00:56:50] we’re going to leave it as a twisted. And she said, I’ll leave it as it twisted. And I was quite nice, [00:56:55] because when we came to fitting, he came with her again, and as he walked out, he just turned around and he [00:57:00] says, thanks for bringing me back down memory lane. So that was a real aha moment for me. [00:57:05] And I still do all that, my dentures. And it comes with now the in your.

Speaker4: In your full, [00:57:10] full.

Speaker3: Cases don’t you. Isn’t it a routine thing that you ask for photos of their child, [00:57:15] you know, when they had their teeth? Is that a routine?

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. So we would ask for [00:57:20] for natural teeth. Yeah. But then you also analyse the face. So [00:57:25] obviously unfortunately I can’t show you the photographs. But there was a, there was a lady who was worn [00:57:30] full force all her life and her face is completely collapsed. And you have to put the teeth above the ridge, all [00:57:35] that kind of stuff, you see. Yeah. And when I make my full fools, I make them in occlusal splint. [00:57:40] And I look at the rule of thirds, and I decide how far I want to open them up. And [00:57:45] then for this lady, we opened it up by about 6 or 7mm wide open, you know. [00:57:50]

Speaker4: Um, have you heard of Nick Mahindra? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: We actually talked about [00:57:55] it um, years ago on GDP UK. He, he, um, really discussed a few things with me. [00:58:00] He, he used something that was swallowing. I think it’s something swallowing. Is it swallowing?

Speaker4: He’s still open.

Speaker3: He he was [00:58:05] my boss here and he used to open by 20mm sometimes. So you’d get these, like, [00:58:10] faces go, oh, like this. And then two weeks later, everything would relax and [00:58:15] they’d look 20 years younger. Yeah. You know.

Speaker1: Well, because we use a splint to move them into [00:58:20] CR, so that’s the first thing you just kind of open up anywhere. So the splint at the same time is, [00:58:25] is pushes them back into CR. So when you actually start the dentures you’ve got a Gothic arched tracing. [00:58:30] And so the registration is taken with the Gothic tracing then more importantly [00:58:35] is that not only do teeth to the bone shrink vertically but horizontally. So [00:58:40] when we come to do the tri in and this the first time I did it was the scariest thing I ever did. [00:58:45] The pronunciation, everything was perfect. And then I removed all [00:58:50] the wax from the gingival margin to the to the border. All the wax, [00:58:55] okay? And I put a function impression material into that, and I put it back into the mouth. And I [00:59:00] got them to do certain exercises. And they now take a three dimensional impression of that space [00:59:05] that’s there. You know, I mean, that’s what makes people look younger, really, because [00:59:10] at the moment, if you put the the teeth above the, um, the, the ridge [00:59:15] and your, your flanges goes up, you have this huge space there and therefore the cheeks [00:59:20] falls in. So when they try to smile, they can only smile so much they can’t come all the way out. Whereas [00:59:25] if you fill that space, which is an empty space with the denture material, then [00:59:30] when they smile, they go straight out, you see, and and literally they look 20 years younger [00:59:35] and they can smile confidently, you know? Um, so we do all that.

Speaker1: I mean, I mean, there’s [00:59:40] 1 or 2, there’s only one technician that we use at the moment because he, he, he knows as much as I do. And he’s Rick [00:59:45] in, in, in London, his, his lab is about £1,000, but we charge about £4,000 [00:59:50] for our dentures. But and then you take the neutral zone impression, um, like some nice photographs. Where the [00:59:55] where the tongue. When they were speaking, it did a little thing like that. It’s kind of stuck out and went to the [01:00:00] right. And so that that area there was very narrow your, your, your, your margin for where to put the teeth [01:00:05] in. And the minute you put it there, she said, oh, I can talk properly now. It doesn’t move. Why is that? You know, because I’ve [01:00:10] allowed for your tongue to do this silly thing when you’re talking. Um, but yeah. So those are my real wow [01:00:15] moments, really? Is. Is prosthetics really how how if you follow the science, [01:00:20] it really works. People look 20 years. My dentures, they don’t look like, you know, stippling [01:00:25] and roots and things like that, because that’s too thin. If you take the denture out of the mouth, there are lumps and bumps because [01:00:30] you’re filling in all the empty space. They just lumps and bumps. And yet, you know, the face looks so. [01:00:35]

Speaker4: But is facially driven, facially facially.

Speaker1: Driven, you know? Um, so those are my wow moments. [01:00:40]

Speaker3: But it’s not like you only do those. I mean, I was looking on your feed [01:00:45] and you were taking taking delivery of your medet. Oh, [01:00:50] yeah. Um, and, you know, like, you’re still, still, still, you know, [01:00:55] technology and looking to improve and all that. It’s amazing the number of different things [01:01:00] you do well. But have you ever thought about teaching?

Speaker4: No.

Speaker1: Well, I [01:01:05] honestly, I have been asked to give to actually run this course on the prosthetics. My, my technician [01:01:10] says because we need to run the course. I said, we’re going to run the course. It has to be done properly. So there are technicians. You [01:01:15] have to give the course to, the technician has to learn from you, and then they bring their own patients. And I think at the [01:01:20] moment there’s been so much in my life going on, um, especially with twins, that, you know, I [01:01:25] didn’t have the time to I want to spend some time with the family, you know, but I’m more than happy. When [01:01:30] people come to shadow me, they can see what I do. Um, how I do things. I mean, the only thing I know nothing about [01:01:35] is orthodontics. I don’t know why I can carry out the ortho exam class to div one and all that kind of stuff, and [01:01:40] then so what? So I decided not to have anything to do with ortho. It just doesn’t [01:01:45] click with me at all. But everything else I like to do things. Well, I mean, it’s I mean, there’s a lot [01:01:50] of jokes and every time I go in a course, I’m the oldest guy. Everybody’s like 20 years younger, [01:01:55] you know, and I yeah, I mean, you know.

Speaker3: It’s a funny thing, Chris, [01:02:00] because I noticed that on our courses as well, our courses are a bit more, you know, composite bonding, [01:02:05] a lot of lot of young, old, older guys know better than to compensate. But but [01:02:10] but but you know, it’s a young thing. Um, but I’ve noticed that [01:02:15] I’ve noticed that anyone anyone over 40 is the [01:02:20] odd one out of 40.

Speaker4: Okay, well.

Speaker1: How old do you think I am? You can see me on the screen. [01:02:25]

Speaker3: You’re 58.

Speaker4: I’m always [01:02:30] thinking, no, you’re more. I’m over 60.

Speaker3: I just, I just did the calculation of.

Speaker4: If you’re [01:02:35] suppose to go by appearance. Okay. Not mathematics. Okay.

Speaker3: But my my [01:02:40] protein kicked in a bit too late.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Appearance, not mathematics. [01:02:45]

Speaker3: You should look at teaching, dude. Yeah, and I know it’s a it’s a hassle and a headache and all that. [01:02:50] Yeah, but you clearly thrive thrive on explaining things. And [01:02:55] I can see you’re doing it one on one with people you’re having. You know, I don’t know, lunch with, uh, [01:03:00] my good friend Alex. Oh, yeah. Butcher. Um, or, [01:03:05] you know, another geek. Another geek. But, you know, teaching doesn’t have to be, like, [01:03:10] a high risk thing. You can start with a very simple. You know, I’m putting on a course, um, [01:03:15] for free and just see what that’s like, but you’ll love it. You’ll love it.

Speaker4: I think one of the.

Speaker1: Best [01:03:20] things I could do to tell you the truth is, I was very privileged to give a [01:03:25] talk to ace, and the title of the course was How to Become a Successful Dentist, [01:03:30] you see, and I started that course by how to, you know, [01:03:35] there are various things you have to do, but there are various things that you have to, um, to be [01:03:40] a successful dentist. You know, you laid out the various things like leaving the NHS, going private. I talked about what exactly [01:03:45] is rapport, what exactly is ethics? Uh, but the most important thing is about [01:03:50] which. Which I probably wouldn’t say here, but, um, on the course I did say it [01:03:55] is that I probably have the record of after 20 years in NHS [01:04:00] dentistry, at least when I went private, I did not have one [01:04:05] abusive comment. Or one abusive, angry patient. In fact, I had loads [01:04:10] of thank you cards. Things like saying no. Thank you so much for the last 20 years that you’ve looked after us. [01:04:15] Um, I do totally understand why you’re going private, and I wish you the very best in your new [01:04:20] venture. Had loads of cards like that, you know, I was actually quite touched, and we never had it. And that’s because [01:04:25] we built rapport with the patients, you know? And the problem with rapport is something which people [01:04:30] don’t really understand what it is, um, and how you go about it. But that course was, was probably [01:04:35] one of the most beneficial things, because you can learn confidence building and, you know, they are they are great people teaching composites [01:04:40] all over the thing.

Speaker1: You know, I’ll just I’ll just be another pea in the pod, which is there’s [01:04:45] no point really. And then as far as, um, all the other stuff, there are other people who can [01:04:50] teach that, but I think we I could excel in this. Really help, help you to think why [01:04:55] you want to go private and how to go private to more or less the closest you come to guaranteeing success. You [01:05:00] don’t need millionaires in your on your list. You know, many of my patients, when I’m fully [01:05:05] private, some of them just work, work in factories, you know, many of them very nice people. [01:05:10] As long as you understand your patients, you don’t price them out of your market. Then. Then you can go private. [01:05:15] You know, it’s more or less a guaranteed guarantee, especially now with NHS falling apart, you [01:05:20] know, um, this is the best time to go private. But people just don’t know, understand why, how [01:05:25] to go how to go about it. Because for me, it’s not just as simply of getting somebody in to [01:05:30] produce all the paperwork and you send it off to them. There’s a hell of a lot more to it than that. And [01:05:35] I always say to somebody, if you want to go private, you plan to go private in two years time. [01:05:40] I’ll tell you how, and I can guarantee you you will be successful. You know, as I said.

Speaker3: Do [01:05:45] you think everyone’s up to delivering on whatever, you know, this scheme of [01:05:50] yours?

Speaker1: Yes, yes, because, um, it’s a.

Speaker3: Very simple thing that everyone can. [01:05:55]

Speaker4: Do. Yep. Absolutely.

Speaker1: But the thing is, very often dentists will say, I’m going to go private. I’ve [01:06:00] had enough of doing this shit work under the NHS. No, we are going private. [01:06:05] Everybody and everybody is a team effort. If not everybody is on board, it [01:06:10] will fail.

Speaker4: Definitely he’ll.

Speaker1: Fail. You know, and [01:06:15] private dentistry is not about doing works by Michelangelo. Private dentistry is [01:06:20] purely the most. The fundamental thing in private dentistry is time. [01:06:25] Patients. You know, I mean, can you imagine, you know, when somebody moves into an area. Yeah. And they ding [01:06:30] dong, go to the neighbour and says, hey, we’re looking for a dentist. Um, who can you recommend? So [01:06:35] the wife is not going to, you know, you think the wife is going to say, oh, I go to Smiths down in the high Street because they [01:06:40] got this beautiful waterfall feature in the waiting room. It’s actually beautiful, the waiting room. She’s not going to recommend [01:06:45] them for that. Or the husband is not going to say, oh, he’s an engineer. Or I go to Smiths [01:06:50] too, because he’s got a red band NSK handpiece, you know, and he’s got he’s got an internal scanner. [01:06:55] You know, what people remember is that people buy people, and if you can spend [01:07:00] time, that’s the most important thing. As long as you don’t have two left hands, but you spend time listening, [01:07:05] talking, you’ve won them over. And that’s what consent ultimately is all about, [01:07:10] obtaining consent, you know? And, um, if you spend time then then then obviously then the, the basic things you [01:07:15] need to do, I would say is you’re doing composites, learn to do the rubber dam, learn to do it.

Speaker1: Because rubber dam is not [01:07:20] just about moisture control, it’s about the ambience being very relaxed. And that’s what patients are paying you for [01:07:25] charge for your time, you know, I mean, I just I just had a, had a gentleman [01:07:30] ring up yesterday. Um, he has an appointment at about a month’s time. I’m quite happily booked up. And [01:07:35] the complex will be doing for him is is £280. And he said, well, well, his friend had [01:07:40] it done for £100. You know, I got that, you know, and I just as well if [01:07:45] you really feel that price range suits you then you’re probably better off going there. You’re in the wrong place here, you [01:07:50] know, because we do things maybe differently. But what I do, I will charge for this. [01:07:55] And I say it in a very matter of fact way, that you’re very welcome to go there to do it, have it done if you want, [01:08:00] you know. But then it means you’re leaving the practice, you know. But private dentistry, this is all about [01:08:05] time, you know, learn how to talk and just spend time with you. Learn how to listen to the patient. You know, very [01:08:10] often nobody listens to patients. Again, the thing that always gets in my head from analytic philosophy, you [01:08:15] know, we should listen with the purpose of understanding, not to reply. Try to understand the patient [01:08:20] behind the words.

Speaker4: I mean, the.

Speaker3: We did an episode called leaving the NHS [01:08:25] and it was one of the most listened to episodes we did, but [01:08:30] it always makes me like makes me worry when people say they don’t want to or [01:08:35] they they when they’re scared of going private. Of course you’ve got the business side of [01:08:40] it, right? You know that knowing you’ve got a contract or whatever it is and they do in the NHS. [01:08:45] But the thing that gets me is, you know, you can keep things simple in private. You don’t have [01:08:50] to be christophorus to be a private dentist. You don’t have to be Jason [01:08:55] Smithson to be a private dentist. You can be the the simplest private dentist. You could be the guy [01:09:00] I became, right? I was bleaching and bonding.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Every [01:09:05] single other thing I was, I was referring out, um, you could be anyone you want. You could be anyone you [01:09:10] want as a private dentist. Um. And it’s the NHS system. That’s the weird one. [01:09:15] Yeah, it’s not the private. I mean, private is what dentistry is, right? You [01:09:20] the patient? Yeah, yeah. And it is, is where you’ve got the middle man. Yeah. [01:09:25] Um, as soon as there’s a middle man, that’s that’s weird. You know, that’s the strange thing. [01:09:30]

Speaker4: Now, your your.

Speaker1: Brother in law, okay? Your brother in law, the ball. Well, [01:09:35] the NHS is the one looking down into the bowl of gold.

Speaker4: Okay? The dentist. [01:09:40] We are the bowl in the fish. Fish in the bowl. Okay.

Speaker1: The NHS is the one looking.

Speaker4: Down on that. [01:09:45] The dog? There’s no. But tell [01:09:50] me.

Speaker3: About why you’ve decided to stay single handed. Is it just for simplicity? [01:09:55]

Speaker1: Um, about. Oh, well, I’ve been on my own about 20 years ago. [01:10:00] I think I decided to advertise for an associate, and I specifically [01:10:05] said that, you know, what I would do is, I don’t know, in those days whether they had this word or not, these words. [01:10:10] But it was basically a personal development plan. I said I would I would ask you to go on certain composite courses so I know [01:10:15] you’re up to date with that root canal, rubber dam, all the courses I know, you know, because you’re about to come [01:10:20] into a private practice, you have to do things properly by the signs, okay? Not just, you know, and the majority [01:10:25] of associates wants to know how much you wanted to earn. Then they wanted to go on courses. Already got my BDA. Yeah, you [01:10:30] got your BDA 20 years ago. Things have moved on. But the best one I had was [01:10:35] uh, I was holding the CV in my hand and this person rang up before attending [01:10:40] for the interview and asked me about the thing you see, and I told her about the personal development plan. This [01:10:45] person said, why do I have to go on all these courses? Because I’m a registered specialist [01:10:50] with the General Dental Council, you see. And I knew and obviously with the CV, I know exactly [01:10:55] what the speciality is.

Speaker1: And I said, what’s your speciality? And [01:11:00] this person said, oral surgery. This person has been in secondary care for, I don’t know, five, [01:11:05] six years now. You want to come to a private dentist. You’ve never done that. You haven’t done a composite in six, [01:11:10] seven years and you want to charge. My patients £250. You know, get real. So when I said, [01:11:15] what is your speciality? And she says, um, he, this person said, um, oral surgery. I said, well, how does [01:11:20] that help you put the composite in click. He just hung up, you know. So after [01:11:25] a while I gave up. I gave up having an associate because everybody wants to know how much money is in. You’re not coming to my practice to screw up the reputation. [01:11:30] But then of course, years later, we now have all this nonsense [01:11:35] about, you know, if you have an associate, then you have to do auditing and you have to do this. You know, I could do without [01:11:40] all that hassle, you know, I mean, I mean, I would love to have an associate. I would love to show them how to do things, you know, but to [01:11:45] have to do all the extra stuff from regulations, it’s just, you know, I [01:11:50] got to get a life.

Speaker4: Yeah, but this.

Speaker3: Is that’s kind of a new thing. Whereas for 20 years you haven’t done it. [01:11:55] Well you are you’re a control freak. Are you like, do you want do you want to, you know, you don’t [01:12:00] want to even risk the guy doing one thing wrong type person.

Speaker4: No, I’m not a control.

Speaker1: Freak at all. You can ask my staff. I can tell you this. [01:12:05] My.

Speaker4: I have two, um.

Speaker1: Some of my staff are self-employed. I can tell you this. They [01:12:10] are more self-employed than the majority of associates in this country. So, for example, [01:12:15] my my hygienist is, um, so I always consult an [01:12:20] employment law lawyer to make sure my contract is satisfied. Hmc self-employment, [01:12:25] you see. So first of all, my hygienist is not to ask me about holidays. [01:12:30] Really. So there are days I could come in on a Wednesday expecting her to be here. And she’s not here. You [01:12:35] know, she’s just she’s her own boss, basically. And she sets her own time, you [01:12:40] know, and and all I say. So all I said to her is that, you know, in your contract it says, you know, you have [01:12:45] to get a locum in, but, you know, if you if you if you’re not unreasonable, I would never insist you get a locum in. So [01:12:50] if you decide to go for six months and get a local, otherwise you lose your job. You know what I mean? But but the good thing [01:12:55] is, because you’re so open with them, they are very, um, they don’t abuse it, so I’m not controlling [01:13:00] it at all. So there are times I turn up and the hygienist or the therapist is not even there. I didn’t [01:13:05] know she was going on holiday, you know? So no, I’m not I’m not a control freak. What I do [01:13:10] like is that I control, in so far as act in the best interest of the patient, not [01:13:15] your wallet. And if you can satisfy that philosophy. See, see, when I employ people, I [01:13:20] don’t employ people on, on on clinical skills nurses, or even if a dentist, I employ them [01:13:25] on attitude and personality.

Speaker1: I want to know that you’re a human being, a person, a people person, [01:13:30] and you want to do is just do good dentistry for the best interest of your patient. And then clinical [01:13:35] skills would follow. And I can teach you that. I’m quite happy to, to teach you that. But if you came [01:13:40] to me, you know, with, with 5000 degrees and everything like that, I wouldn’t even look at that [01:13:45] because I want I’ll be talking to you like we are talking now for quite a long time, because after you [01:13:50] talk, you come to know somebody very well. And I just need to know what kind of a person you are. And that’s how I would employ [01:13:55] and then I so about 14, 15 years ago I had my twins. So [01:14:00] I decided not to have the associate I would I would love to have an associate, to tell you the truth. You know, if I know it’s Neil, somebody was going to look [01:14:05] after the practice, look after the patients. I mean, who knows? They could end up buying when I retire. [01:14:10] Um, having the practice because this is one of the top practices. And secondly, this is [01:14:15] an ideal building to build up a specialist practice. We got enough rooms for all the all the specialities, [01:14:20] you know, um, it’s a gold mine, really. But then now with vicarious [01:14:25] liability and my bad experience of people were just wanting how much money, money they can earn. Um, that kind [01:14:30] of puts me out a bit. You know, I could do without the hassle of of of regulations, really. [01:14:35]

Speaker4: But so what what do you do.

Speaker3: When it comes to, when it comes to selling this, this baby? [01:14:40] What will you do.

Speaker4: When it comes? What will you.

Speaker3: Do when it comes to selling? I mean, would you [01:14:45] ever sell to a corporate.

Speaker4: Right. That that I.

Speaker1: Probably won’t say. What I can say is, um, [01:14:50] somebody is obviously keeping an eye on when people qualified and [01:14:55] working out their age because I actually had three phone calls out of the blue, um, saying, [01:15:00] so you must be coming up to retirement. We just can’t buy your practice. And I said, what the hell [01:15:05] are you? You know who who who are you? You see, and they obviously they wouldn’t say, you see. And then one of them, I suspect, is a corporate [01:15:10] because, you see, I represent somebody else I present, you know, um, [01:15:15] for me, I just need to know that somebody is going to look after the practice. But [01:15:20] the main, the main thing with my practice is if you’re going to buy it, because I’m more than happy to to turn this into [01:15:25] a, into a residential property again and rent it out and leave it as a as [01:15:30] to my, to my children in the world. But the main thing is this is an ideal. This is a very [01:15:35] middle class area. You got the patients with the money, and this is a practice where you can easily put in [01:15:40] one surgery for an implant surgeon, one surgery for endo, one surgery for hygiene, [01:15:45] one surgery for for general restorative dentistry. You can easily put about 4 or 5 surgery. And [01:15:50] you can easily have a have a CT scan room. So if you do buy my what you will be [01:15:55] buying is my building to turn it into a specialist practice. So I will [01:16:00] be selling it for a hell of a lot more than what I earn. Because I’m not. I’m not really a high, high earner in that sense, you know, [01:16:05] and that’s what you want. And then what they’ll be buying it for because you won’t get and this, this, you know, there’s [01:16:10] car parking. So if you want to buy this practice. This, then you will be paying a lot more than what? [01:16:15] What my accountant shows you, because it is an investment for you that you can turn this into a specialist practice. You have all [01:16:20] the rooms, everything there, you know, let.

Speaker3: Me let me just say, let me just say that if a sale comes [01:16:25] out of this podcast, I expect my 1% here.

Speaker4: I whiten [01:16:30] your teeth for free.

Speaker3: Thank you.

Speaker4: Tell [01:16:35] me.

Speaker3: Tell me about, [01:16:40] uh, family life. And, you know, if you had a day to yourself, what would you do? [01:16:45] No. No family, no. No expectation. Like, what are your what do you do outside of work?

Speaker1: I [01:16:50] actually have a lot of days like this.

Speaker4: You know? For real? Yeah, because my [01:16:55] daughters.

Speaker1: Are teenagers now, so, you know. Yeah. They’re not interested in, you know, [01:17:00] doing.

Speaker3: How many days are you working clinically? Like wet fingered.

Speaker4: Monday.

Speaker1: Tuesdays and Thursdays [01:17:05] is 930 till five Wednesday I don’t work. And Fridays I finish at three. [01:17:10]

Speaker3: Should cut the Friday. Cut the Friday.

Speaker4: Man, I.

Speaker1: Can’t cut many.

Speaker4: Patients, you [01:17:15] know, but but the thing is, as a private practice, it’s very, very easy.

Speaker1: It really is. [01:17:20] And the patients are very, very nice. I mean every, all the, the bank staff and new people coming [01:17:25] in, I can’t believe how nice the patients are. Literally 100% of our patients are very, very nice. You know, I [01:17:30] still remember when I had my twins, when they were born, uh, we had about 60 cards of congratulations. [01:17:35] And then some of them even bought presents for the girls, you know? So, so, so I [01:17:40] do believe in kind of looking after the patients very, very well. But but yeah, that that’s [01:17:45] why I back to.

Speaker3: The day off. Back to the day off question. Yeah. If you had a day, half [01:17:50] a day, whatever. No no no. No expectation. No nothing. What would you get up to? What would [01:17:55] you like to get up to?

Speaker1: Various things. But at the moment, my my real mind space [01:18:00] is having a nice something to eat. And on my phone I’m watching a movie [01:18:05] and really, really. Yeah. You know, and that’s me. Like in my in my, in my own, in my [01:18:10] own way. So I still do that. So sometimes like on the Saturday morning I will go somewhere for breakfast [01:18:15] for a cooked breakfast, you know, by yourself, by myself. Yeah, yeah. And then my family knows that, [01:18:20] you know. Or I might decide I really, really want to eat this special fried noodles, you know. So [01:18:25] in Derby, I would just drive to Birmingham on my own, um, because they’re quite happy to stay at home. And I’m [01:18:30] quite happy with that. I’ll drive down there, go to this restaurant, watch my movie, eat my meal. Um, they [01:18:35] know me quite well. They every time they see me, they. They got no problems with that. I mean, I have special headphones, earphones. So [01:18:40] they’re not disturbing anybody else. So I’m very happy with doing that, you know. But at the same time, you know, [01:18:45] I’ll be more than happy to have somebody join me for a meal and we can talk for 3 or 4 hours, you know, I mean, you [01:18:50] know, I think people find me quite easy to talk to, so I do that quite a lot, too. I never say.

Speaker4: I’m [01:18:55] the same.

Speaker3: I’m the same with the podcast, with the podcast. So I do it quite a lot because I’m on the [01:19:00] road a little bit. I end up in, in some restaurant in wherever it is, Glasgow. [01:19:05] The good thing is that the quality of restaurants has gone through the roof in the UK, where I [01:19:10] remember a time when it was all like very hard to get good food. Yeah, everywhere [01:19:15] in certain towns, in certain towns now it’s a lot easier than it was. Um, [01:19:20] did you you did, I guess you got you got the the email, our [01:19:25] final questions. Did you.

Speaker4: Miss [01:19:30] it out?

Speaker3: Yeah, I final question. It’s fancy [01:19:35] dinner party. Hey free fancy dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:19:40] or alive. Who would you have?

Speaker1: Um. I [01:19:45] personally, I would, I would, um. Oh, let me see. What is this name? Hang [01:19:50] on. Let me let me just find his name. This this guy is this guy is very current on on on on YouTube. [01:19:55] I should get his name for you. I would love to go for her. However, he [01:20:00] would definitely be one of the three. He is.

Speaker4: Jordan Peterson. Yes. Oh [01:20:05] my goodness, mind reader.

Speaker3: I felt [01:20:10] your vibe and I felt you.

Speaker1: Jordan Peterson would be one of them. And uh, and then [01:20:15] and I mean, another one is, is is quite funny because recently we were talking about some [01:20:20] Korean movies, you see. And which one? Iris. Iris.

Speaker4: Iris.

Speaker3: I heard [01:20:25] of it.

Speaker4: Yeah. Um, it’s.

Speaker1: It has everything. It’s got the it’s got the, um, the romance. [01:20:30] It’s got espionage. Really? On your seat. Nail biting stuff, but but [01:20:35] the but the, uh, lead actress is one of the most beautiful, um, Korean actresses, [01:20:40] you know? So you don’t have a fancy, you know, so Jordan Peterson on her. [01:20:45]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: I love that, you know?

Speaker4: Right. [01:20:50] And, uh, third one.

Speaker1: Let me let me let me give me a moment. Um.

Speaker4: Surely. [01:20:55]

Speaker3: Ignatius.

Speaker1: No.

Speaker4: No no no no.

Speaker1: I [01:21:00] spent six years with a guy working for a party for.

Speaker4: Bloody [01:21:05] hell. You know what I mean?

Speaker1: Spent six years. Spent six years with a guy.

Speaker4: Um, [01:21:10] yeah. There’s nothing new. He’s going to.

Speaker1: Say [01:21:15] that in six years.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: Just just, I [01:21:20] guess another hot check just to make your night amazing.

Speaker4: No. Why [01:21:25] would I want. You know, I’m drawing a blank. You [01:21:30] and Jordan Peterson.

Speaker3: Have a great night with you.

Speaker4: I think that person really.

Speaker1: Would [01:21:35] be, um, just some happy go lucky person. You know what I mean? Who? Who’s who [01:21:40] don’t have views.

Speaker3: You could have Jesus Christ, you could have your your great grandfather. You’re not going to have [01:21:45] to. Just some happy go lucky.

Speaker1: Jesus Christ, no no no no no. I talk to him every [01:21:50] day already.

Speaker3: But, you know, you could.

Speaker4: Have someone else. Yeah. You know. Yeah. [01:21:55]

Speaker3: Okay, let let that marinate. Let that marinate. [01:22:00] We’ll get back to it. Um, this is a like a deathbed question.

Speaker4: Okay? [01:22:05]

Speaker3: You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your [01:22:10] friends and family or your loved ones around you. And you [01:22:15] want to leave them with three pieces of wisdom, three pieces of advice. What would they be? [01:22:20]

Speaker1: On my deathbed. The first one would be. [01:22:25] Be the person you are you are created to be. Basically, [01:22:30] do not feel you have to pull towards any particular point of view. [01:22:35] Believe in yourself and live your own life. You know [01:22:40] that would be the first one. Number two is. It’s better to have one good friend [01:22:45] than five and ten Facebook friends.

Speaker4: So always. [01:22:50]

Speaker1: Always be a people person. You know, learn, learn to share your your gifts [01:22:55] with other people. Make sure you’re not taken for a ride and you know and you’ll [01:23:00] be you’ll be a happy person. Don’t be selfish or anything like that. You know. Now, [01:23:05] I was once asked this, and the person who asked me [01:23:10] that was actually a by the book. So when I said share [01:23:15] and be people person, he goes and I had to say to him that what [01:23:20] you have, what you have missed, understood, is just just because you’re a people person doesn’t mean you have to be. [01:23:25] Let’s suppose you’re an introvert means you cannot be a people person. It just means that when you are with somebody else, [01:23:30] your attention is on them, not yourself.

Speaker4: But yeah.

Speaker1: So so [01:23:35] I mean, I’m very comfortable with my, my, my I mean, it’s funny you ask me this because because the other day, [01:23:40] you know, in the evening, I tend to reflect discernment on how the day [01:23:45] has gone so that I don’t carry any rubbish to the next anything that rubbish emotions to the next day, you [01:23:50] know.

Speaker3: How long does that take you?

Speaker1: You only need about ten, ten, 15 minutes, that’s all. You just [01:23:55] need to be on your own. Definitely. You must not be interrupted by anything. So the phone is switched off [01:24:00] and I’m lucky. I own my practice, so I sit in the practice. Do it. But if I didn’t have the practice before, I would drive somebody. [01:24:05] I sit in my car and I just do it and you literally just let your without forcing it. [01:24:10] You let your day run from the time you wake up, don’t force it. It’ll replay itself and as it [01:24:15] replaces itself, you suddenly aware of an emotion with something that you had missed in the day, you [01:24:20] know. So, for example, there was once where I just finished treating a family [01:24:25] and this little boy on his way out, he suddenly came back in. His family has already gone to the waiter and he says, [01:24:30] Chris, look what I made today at school. And he took out this little piece of paper that he had folded, and he was showing me how to fold it, unfold [01:24:35] it and everything. And I was looking at that and I said, Johnny, that’s, that’s really, really nice, you know? And the father came and [01:24:40] took him away, you see. And that moment passed. But then when I reflected on the day I could relive that moment, I suddenly [01:24:45] realised how good I felt and how privileged I felt that he came back in, you know, [01:24:50] um, then there was another time where, um, we have a [01:24:55] autistic child and, um, he gets very worked up very quickly. And [01:25:00] the father suddenly phoned up and said, you know, one tooth is coming through, and he’s really worked up because of his, [01:25:05] because of his medical condition. You know, I says, and I know the little child, I said, don’t bring bring him in at [01:25:10] 5:00.

Speaker1: I’ll see him because we’re fully. So he came in and um, and he said, this [01:25:15] tooth is coming through, you know, and the other one is still there. And I said, let’s have a look at it, okay? And then I [01:25:20] suspended. I said, no, you there’s nothing to worry. You just drop out naturally, you see. And [01:25:25] um, and I says, any time you’re worried, Jonathan, you come and talk to me, okay? And I looked him in the eye and I said, you come [01:25:30] and talk to me any time you’re worried, okay? He went outside first. Um, the mother was in the waiting room, and then the [01:25:35] father said, you know, that was so nice that he’s never done this before, that he suddenly found a dental [01:25:40] problem. He said, I need to go and see Chris. Normally, they avoid dentists, you know. [01:25:45] Now, when I replayed it back, I suddenly felt kind of quite emotional and touched. When [01:25:50] you start to hear the story behind that. So all you need is about ten 15 minutes. Let the day run back. [01:25:55] Um, from the time you wake up to the time when you suddenly have certain instances that you then suddenly become aware [01:26:00] of the emotion that went with it, and then you also become aware of how very angry you were with [01:26:05] somebody. You know that you had held it back. You bit your tongue, you know, but then once you become aware [01:26:10] of that, it surfaces and you don’t bring it over to the next day because you’re aware of that, [01:26:15] you know. Um, and, you know, um, but it’s about ten, 15 minutes every day. That’s that’s all [01:26:20] you need, really. Um.

Speaker3: Would you? If one of your twins said [01:26:25] they might want to be a dentist? Would you? I think I know the answer.

Speaker4: You’d say go [01:26:30] for it.

Speaker1: No, no, they said they don’t want to be. No, I mean, I’ll be very honest with them. I do a lot of careers advice [01:26:35] because many of the parents come back in the evening with, with a, with a son and I talk to them about various things, you know, [01:26:40] and I’ll be very honest with them in that, you know, I will be very happy for them to be a dentist. [01:26:45] If I was still working as a dentist, mentor them rather than leave them [01:26:50] at the mercy of some rogue principles and the NHS and all that kind of crap, you know? But [01:26:55] fortunately, one of them is incredibly good at art. And I mean, um, [01:27:00] incredibly good at art. And she’ll probably go towards the arts section. And the other one is, is [01:27:05] Einstein with mathematics, you know, um, but but they already said they don’t really want to be a dentist. So I [01:27:10] says, well, I mean, I didn’t jump up and down and say, yay, thank God for that, you know? But I just [01:27:15] said, well, if you ever think want to think about it, you just come back and talk to me. And I just respected their, their [01:27:20] thing. You know, as long as it’s not life or death, I try. They’re only 14 years old. I try to respect them and let them [01:27:25] make their own mistakes.

Speaker4: Yeah, but I mean.

Speaker3: As as general advice to someone who wants to do dentistry. [01:27:30] I mean, you know, you talked about the fee per item system in the 80s and paying for your house [01:27:35] in two years. And you know, the I don’t know, I’m not sure exactly whether you were saying [01:27:40] this, but the reason why people don’t do that now is because properties are so expensive. [01:27:45] Dentists aren’t earning as much as they were or whatever it is. Yeah, all the regulations, the [01:27:50] the, the drive for cosmetics, the digital, the GDC, [01:27:55] all those things that people worry about about dentistry and I yeah, all [01:28:00] the whole thing, the five year course, I, you know, I was I was telling my daughter, look at dentistry and then [01:28:05] I, and I now I know some of these, uh, very young, uh, associates of arts and things [01:28:10] and they’re so competitive, so competitive, you know, because [01:28:15] they have to get top grades to even get in in the first place. And they do so much. So they thought [01:28:20] maybe for the first time in my life, I thought, oh, maybe not, maybe, maybe, maybe [01:28:25] dentistry isn’t the right, right thing. Where do you sit on that on? Do you think it’s still [01:28:30] the great profession that it was when you got it? No.

Speaker1: I think first of all, I mean, I [01:28:35] mean, if I had my, uh, if I had my way. So first of all, yeah, [01:28:40] the GDC really needs to change because. Very often the see [01:28:45] if you look at it ethically. Um. When you [01:28:50] encourage people to whistleblow for minor things and you accept blue and blue complaints [01:28:55] from an ethical point of view, that is actually. More [01:29:00] unethical than keeping quiet and not whistle blowing, because when [01:29:05] you allow blue and blue, you are allowing the law to be used as a weapon. [01:29:10] The law is no longer answering to that higher principle. Laws are meant to meant to obey, which is [01:29:15] ethics, you see, and therefore the state of affairs is worse. So [01:29:20] sniper ethics means this dentist has harmed this one patient. [01:29:25] You need to report that dentist. And we openly accept that. That’s [01:29:30] nightmare ethics. You’re just looking at the benefit to that one patient. But when you look at the bigger picture, many [01:29:35] people will be using it as a weapon or patients are allowed to be using it as a weapon. The whole [01:29:40] scenario is more unethical, but unfortunately encouraging. Whistle blowing is [01:29:45] sniper ethics, and you’re not looking at the bigger picture of the greater harm is being done. [01:29:50] You know, the you know, judges and should always appeal [01:29:55] to the higher principle laws are meant to serve. So whether you’re a judge, whether you’re whether you’re a fitness to practice [01:30:00] panel member, appeal to the higher principle laws are meant to serve. Don’t just [01:30:05] look at the narrow, very narrow ice field. So as I said, ethics is a is a punch line that people like the [01:30:10] regulators like to throw around. There are many things which are very unethical if you really look into it in depth. [01:30:15] The process is unethical.

Speaker3: Although I had I had Len de Cruz on [01:30:20] recently and he was saying that, you know, that that thing about [01:30:25] the GDC and how how much they’re taking cases forward, or [01:30:30] he’s saying that that has all changed very much, but the perception hasn’t changed in [01:30:35] the profession, that that’s what’s going on. I mean, and he said there’s been changes to no win, no fee as well. [01:30:40] Um, which I wasn’t aware of. Um, you know, it’s almost [01:30:45] like a PTSD, you know, we’ve got it. And he said, oh, you know, it’s nothing like it was in 2015, 2016, [01:30:50] which is only a few years ago. Right. Which is why we’ve got that. But [01:30:55] but, you know, that information needs to go out, that things aren’t as bad as.

Speaker4: They were looking at that I. [01:31:00]

Speaker3: Think, you know, sorry, sorry. But you know, when you were talking about blue on blue, there was [01:31:05] there was a time where the GDC was was a was a growing business, [01:31:10] if you like. But, you know, it was actually they were building they wanted it to be bigger. [01:31:15] And apparently that’s no longer the case, which is, thank God. No.

Speaker4: Were you saying when they.

Speaker1: Say it’s no longer [01:31:20] now, if you look at it in depth ethically, because you get a lot of debates on this in the seminars. Ethics [01:31:25] is something that stands on its own. What you can’t use is. When [01:31:30] you say something’s not as bad as before, you are. You are using. A [01:31:35] bad situation to justify a less bad situation. So at the end of the day, [01:31:40] let’s say I’m going to kill somebody. There are two ways of killing somebody. Let’s say I’m going to I’m going to shoot [01:31:45] him in the head. He dies straight away, or I’m going to keep on stabbing him until he dies. What [01:31:50] you’re then saying is that what they use to stab people until they die, but now they shoot them in the head. So that’s okay, isn’t it?

Speaker4: You [01:31:55] know.

Speaker1: No, it’s not okay. You cannot use a less ethical scenario to [01:32:00] justify another scenario. You know, ethics stands on its own. Again, [01:32:05] ethics is a punch line. People don’t really understand what it really means just because it’s not as bad as before, [01:32:10] but it’s still bad. So that so on its own. You can’t [01:32:15] do that, you see. Otherwise we end up.

Speaker4: Doing all sorts. Well.

Speaker3: A [01:32:20] bit part of it. A big part of it was dental law partnership. I was really, really [01:32:25] frustrated with how can one law firm take on a whole profession, change our whole professional [01:32:30] lives? How is that possible? And again, because because the the business model isn’t isn’t [01:32:35] the same. Hopefully things are getting better, but and then.

Speaker1: Technically speaking, we shouldn’t. If people [01:32:40] had a duty of candour, then you know we shouldn’t need [01:32:45] them to. Law partnership because the process it started off as a good thing, I think, whereby people [01:32:50] were justified to have compensation and they couldn’t get anywhere else with it. But then, like everything, a good [01:32:55] thing. Eventually it goes off in a different direction. [01:33:00] So so so they’re not they open their doors and everything, you know. So initially I think the original idea was good. [01:33:05] I mean, I mean the number of times I can tell you I, um, I would fit a crown for [01:33:10] somebody, you know, porcelain bonded crown. And, uh, and so [01:33:15] it’s guaranteed for a year. It says in the, in the thing, but then 13 months later, the porcelain chips off, you see, [01:33:20] and, um, and so the guy is quite wealthy and he was quite happy to pay again [01:33:25] because he knows the only warranty for a year. I said, no, I’m gonna do it again for you for free. Now, he was actually leaving the practice because he’s [01:33:30] moving to the to the West Coast to to live, you see. So I’ll be moving away after this, Chris. I said, well, [01:33:35] let me make you a crown for there’s no charge. It’s under warranty. I thought it was only for a year. Yeah, I know, but I know that [01:33:40] it shouldn’t break after 13 or 14 months, so let me redo that for you free of charge. So [01:33:45] if you had a certain duty of candour, then we don’t need dental law partnership. But and then but then dental [01:33:50] partnership then becomes a takes on its momentum on its own, you know. And that’s sad because that’s [01:33:55] destroys the profession. Everybody’s scared.

Speaker4: Yeah. Of course you know.

Speaker3: Of [01:34:00] course. How would you like to be remembered?

Speaker1: You [01:34:05] know, one of the, um, one of the exercises we had to do in one of the Ignatian [01:34:10] retreats was that you were to imagine that somebody’s done [01:34:15] a sculpture of you, and it’s covered. I mean, you are now told to go and have a look [01:34:20] at the sculpture, you see, and then you draw the thing down and there are six or [01:34:25] 6 or 6 of us in the retreat. It was interesting what you saw sculptor [01:34:30] had done, which is how other people how do I want to be remembered? I, I hope I [01:34:35] will be remembered as somebody who will always be honest with people I don’t [01:34:40] flatter for no reason. I hope I have empowered people to be more of the person [01:34:45] you you’re born to be. I hope I’ve never consciously [01:34:50] directed people. What I tend to do is if people come and talk to me, is that I help them to find the answers to themselves. It’s not up to me [01:34:55] to say, and they do find the answers in themselves. That’s where the answer comes from, really. Um, and I’m [01:35:00] just a people person. I’m not. I’m not really a money minded person, you know, and I hope people [01:35:05] know that I’m always approachable. 24 over seven.

Speaker1: You know, I’ve always said to [01:35:10] friends, you ever need anything, you know, um, 24 over seven, my door is open. [01:35:15] I say that to my staff, you know, once I get to know them, that if and [01:35:20] I remember about. I wasn’t actually the, um, the principal at that time [01:35:25] was in school years ago, and at that time, I still said that, you know, anything happens in your house, my door is open [01:35:30] to you, and I get a phone call at 3:00 in the morning when something happened in the house, and [01:35:35] and this person ended up in A and E, you know, and the police were there and everything, [01:35:40] but but but this person said I just need to talk to talk to somebody because, you know, I said, that’s that’s [01:35:45] all right. So I spoke to this person at 3:00 in the morning, and then eventually she’s allowed to [01:35:50] go. Now the police are here. Um, I don’t actually know exactly fully the situation, but [01:35:55] as I said, my door is always open. I hope hopefully that’ll be. I’ll be remembered as that, you know, and I. And [01:36:00] I hope I’ll be remembered. I’ll be remembered. I have had the privilege of talking to Payman.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:36:05]

Speaker3: We’ve we’ve got it on record now, but we’ve [01:36:10] got it on record. Amazing. But I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for doing this. [01:36:15]

Speaker4: Thanks for having.

Speaker1: Me. I enjoyed it too. And hopefully we meet you one day.

Speaker3: Cool. Absolutely.

Speaker2: This [01:36:20] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:36:25] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:36:30] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:36:35]

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:36:40] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:36:45] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:36:50] value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:36:55] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [01:37:00] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Speaker1: We often talk about this concept of of the the third victim or the second victim. The third, [00:00:05] the third victim is probably going to be you. You know, you suffer as a direct result of [00:00:10] that complaint or that error. And even if they don’t complain, you know, you walk home and you think, oh my [00:00:15] God, that’s me. I can’t believe I did this. I can’t believe I missed that. And every one of us, anybody [00:00:20] who’s doing dentistry will have done that, have that sinking feeling of I’ve done something wrong. And even if [00:00:25] the patient doesn’t complain, even if nobody finds out about it, you have that sinking feeling. And I think [00:00:30] that a that makes you a professional, it makes you a caring professional. You’re not burnt out. It means you still care, which [00:00:35] is great in itself, but it is one of the the real challenges of being a clinician and [00:00:40] dealing directly with patients, and also the fact that it happens in real time, you know, the [00:00:45] patient is not anaesthetised. You’re they’re, you know, they’re not under general anaesthetic. You can do what you like in the general [00:00:50] anaesthetic. Something goes wrong. Well, there’s no panic. There’s no stress here. You know, instantly something [00:00:55] goes wrong. They know you know it. And I think that’s why it’s it’s so challenging as a profession [00:01:00] when something goes wrong. Because. Because it is ever so personal.

Speaker2: This [00:01:05] is Dental Leaders [00:01:10] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:01:15] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:25]

Speaker3: So let’s talk about the BDA brand. I [00:01:30] mean, you grew up in the BDA system, sort of the pack and all that. [00:01:35] It’s one of those love hate things the profession’s got with the BDA. I’m 100% [00:01:40] sure if it didn’t exist, you’d have to invent it. It’s a bit like the UN or something. You have [00:01:45] to we need one, right? And I know it must be a nightmare [00:01:50] to keep so many different types of people happy. And I know it’s ridiculous to [00:01:55] ask you to defend or or stand for an organisation [00:02:00] as giant as the BDA, but just for the sake of the argument, you and your skills. [00:02:05] You could have done this privately. You could, you could, you could have you could have gone and done another [00:02:10] one of these, um, you know, my, my, my good friend Neil has done his own one or whatever, [00:02:15] you know, one of those. But but you chose to go down the, the BDA route is that do you [00:02:20] feel like an element of sort of service to the profession?

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, I think [00:02:25] the, the two reasons we went to the BDA indemnity setup or indemnity [00:02:30] setup of the BDA was two reasons. The the first reason essentially was there were lots and lots of [00:02:35] BDA members complaining that the mutuals and insurance companies were not serving them well. [00:02:40] Basically, they discretionary companies would pull their cover at the last minute or subsequently, [00:02:45] at least they wouldn’t be there, etc. etc.. So we think this is very odd. So [00:02:50] we approached our sort of had a at that time, Peter Walsh was uh, head of the BDA [00:02:55] and we approached the organisation, said, you know, we can either work with you or, you know, let’s [00:03:00] sort this out. And we couldn’t get a straightforward answer with them. We said we might go into collaboration with them. Couldn’t get a real, [00:03:05] uh, sort of landing on that. So he said, okay, you know what, we’re going to do this ourselves because it’s not really our business. [00:03:10] We’ve been around this at trade union and professional association for over 100 years, and DMP is not our business. We shouldn’t [00:03:15] be our business at all. So for us to get into, we had to have a very good reason. The reason we [00:03:20] got into it was we wanted to be dentists for dentists, and we wanted to deliver a product [00:03:25] that was actually going to going to be the best for the patient, but also for the dentist. [00:03:30] So, so the difference between us, the biggest differences were, were contractual. [00:03:35] Um, so it’s not mutual. So you have a contract with us for insurance as opposed to mutual [00:03:40] discretionary relationship.

Speaker1: And we are all dentist for dentists and [00:03:45] we are occurrence based. So which is again what the mutuals are. But unlike an insurance company [00:03:50] which has claims made, if you left us an occurrence basis and a claim came in 510 [00:03:55] years down the line, you won’t need to be paying, run off, cover, etc. etc.. So. So we thought that was the [00:04:00] best model. And there was insurers RSA were the insurers that we went with. They [00:04:05] gave us a fantastic policy. We spent a long time costing it and getting getting it to where we want [00:04:10] it to be. And and that the rationale for why I think it’s the best thing is because it’s [00:04:15] a one stop shop, because you now have a professional association, you have a trade union, [00:04:20] you have every service that you could possibly have, including indemnity. So one of the frustrations [00:04:25] I had when I was a dental advisor, Dental protection was somebody had thrown up. We give them advice and they say, [00:04:30] oh, by the way, I’ve also my practice is stitching me up for the money. There’s a complaint, but [00:04:35] he’s holding the money back and there’s a relation, I think, well, I can’t help you with that. That’s a contractual issue. It’s a business [00:04:40] issue. You need to go to the BDA and they say, well, not a BDA member to give you [00:04:45] some advice, but I can’t I can’t really do much for you. Basically you need to be a member. Now we can simply say [00:04:50] you are a BDA member. Um, we’ve got a huge amount of advisory services, we’ve got compliance, [00:04:55] we’ve got health and safety, we’ve got a whole range of things.

Speaker1: And the beauty about. And [00:05:00] what is sad is that it’s only when I started actually working [00:05:05] the BDA that I realised just how much gets done. I was a committee member at Young Dentist on PEC [00:05:10] and I knew what was going on to greater or less extent, but I didn’t realise just how much goes on. There’s [00:05:15] nothing in dentistry. The BDA doesn’t know about every single aspect of [00:05:20] every British professional life they know about, and the stuff that people don’t know about, they know about. Whether [00:05:25] it’s related to the GDC, the NHS or whatever, and we deal with them every single day. There’s new stuff coming across [00:05:30] the desk every single day. Policy decisions by the NHS, by NHS England, by the GDC, [00:05:35] by, uh, CQC. These guys are on it every day and I could pick up the phone to anybody [00:05:40] in this organisation and they’ll know about every single thing that’s going on. And if they don’t know about it, [00:05:45] they’ll soon find out about it. That is unique because there’s no matter no matter what organisation, there’s no [00:05:50] way that they’d have that amount of knowledge and expertise bang up to date. And I think the [00:05:55] frustration is that it’s seen as a trade union, which it is, and it’s badged [00:06:00] as NHS. You’re just an NHS organisation and you really don’t care. You, uh, care [00:06:05] a hoot about private dentistry. And I think we recognise that, that it’s been branded [00:06:10] as that.

Speaker1: But when we, we looked at this recently and said actually everything we’ve got on our [00:06:15] website actually is not specifically NHS. There is, there is some NHS stuff, but [00:06:20] most of it’s private stuff. How you run your practice, how you take payments, uh, all [00:06:25] the every bit of advice that applies to private entity as well. And I think the, the difficulty [00:06:30] we have is and it’s a mantra from my colleague Russell Russell, he says we [00:06:35] aren’t NHS dental private, we are just dentists. Okay. Simple, straightforward dentistry. And [00:06:40] we happen to earn our income either privately or from an NHS contract or from [00:06:45] both. Okay, we are not. And the badge ourselves as an NHS dentist or [00:06:50] as a private dentist is actually a is actually a fallacy because we are just dentists. We’re full stop [00:06:55] clinically, we’re dentists with private dental treatment and it just happens to be the contract we’re working under, [00:07:00] the payment method that that we get. And I think we forget that when when the BDA [00:07:05] representing people, they represent the NHS for pay and rations to the to the government, but they’re also representing [00:07:10] them as a profession. And we’re in there fighting with them for against [00:07:15] the GDC. We’re the ones who came up with who challenged the, the GDC with, with their own money, [00:07:20] with the annual retention fee years ago. One, the one the, the ruling [00:07:25] that the, the, uh, judicial review and, [00:07:30] you know, we did it thinking actually we might get more members if we do this. [00:07:35] We didn’t just kind of set people kind of just for.

Speaker3: The benefit.

Speaker1: You [00:07:40] get benefit. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, it happened then.

Speaker3: Correct me if I’m wrong. If [00:07:45] you had to make the case against the BDA, incredibly unfair of me to make you do this. It would be [00:07:50] that would it that it or is it something else.

Speaker1: But no I think I think the [00:07:55] case against them would be we’ve probably haven’t served the private [00:08:00] dentists as much as we should. And and it was it was the reason why bapd British private dentistry [00:08:05] set up in the middle of Covid, because it looked like we were just an organisation that supported dentists [00:08:10] through Covid. We we wanted the support of them. We we fought [00:08:15] tooth and nail to, to get that. And we kind of ignored, ignored the plight of private entities. We weren’t getting the support that NHS [00:08:20] dentists did. And I think we sort of took a hard look at ourselves and said, yeah, you’re probably right. We we [00:08:25] weren’t as aware of it and I think we were probably going to get to, uh, we’re going [00:08:30] to get to the situation very soon, where as a policy, the BDA will just be saying, you know what, NHS [00:08:35] is dead, dead in the water. You may as well just bail out and start looking for another form of income. And I think we’re very [00:08:40] close to that. We’re pretty well there now. Um, because nobody, nobody knows [00:08:45] the NHS better than us. We literally have meetings on a weekly basis with NHS England. [00:08:50] There’s no chance of contract reform. There’s no chance of of getting the the udas. So [00:08:55] we’ll be there for many years to come. And that’s a broken system. It’s been broken since 2006. [00:09:00] And this is the second health select committee that said it [00:09:05] said as much as broken. And we’re still and nobody’s the government’s making no attempt [00:09:10] to change it. So so I think the answer is going to be that the the criticism might be we weren’t. [00:09:15]

Speaker1: And I think one of the criticisms might also be we don’t tell people enough about [00:09:20] what we do. You know, we do a lot, but sometimes we do things behind [00:09:25] the scenes because when an organisation makes an [00:09:30] incorrect decision and we challenge it and they say, yeah, okay, you know, you’re right. If we went to the press or went [00:09:35] to the members every time and said, guess what, the GDC were going to do this. We told them not to or NHS [00:09:40] England was going to do this. We changed their mind. They said, oh, right, well, fantastic. We’re not going to talk to us ever again because, [00:09:45] because all we’re going to do is, is, is spill the beans on them. So, so I, you know, we work behind the [00:09:50] scenes an awful lot and things that we, we have lots of little victories or changes [00:09:55] of minds because we because of that approach, because they recognise that we’re not going to go and. Gladstone [00:10:00] undermine people’s confidence in them because we had a minor victory or a major [00:10:05] victory. So don’t shout from the rooftops. So. So I think that’s in a sense it’s the frustration [00:10:10] of how this this organisation operates. And I see that on a daily basis, thinking we [00:10:15] do so much for everybody. And, and, and it’s just, you know, a few members who recognise [00:10:20] it because they use the services, other people don’t use the services. They actually what did I get from my membership? [00:10:25] I think that’s that’s the problem.

Speaker3: I mean, talking about bringing [00:10:30] the two areas together, we’re talking about blame when things go wrong in, in, [00:10:35] in dentistry. And we talk about shame when that happens. And [00:10:40] then the question of sort of representation within BDA [00:10:45] is, is it something particular to dentistry that do you think is something particular [00:10:50] to dentistry. That means that we, number one, are not united. And [00:10:55] number two, when something goes wrong, we we’re [00:11:00] scared of it. You know, we’ve got black box thinking, um, and, you know, the [00:11:05] way that we run away from errors. Is there something specific to dentistry, [00:11:10] or do you think this is just professions in general?

Speaker1: I think it’s professions in general. I mean, I think there’s probably [00:11:15] a slight there’s well, not I mean the, the, the competitive, the [00:11:20] representation. And I think, um, interesting I don’t think that’s the same amongst lawyers. [00:11:25] Um, you know, my son’s a lawyer. I’ve obviously got, um, people who [00:11:30] are lawyers. Uh, my other son’s an actuary. They don’t have that sort of, uh, [00:11:35] because they don’t have that sort of split nature about them. Because [00:11:40] we are partly because we are competitive, because we’re competing with each other in [00:11:45] one sense, a dentist, uh, you know, from one, one street across to the next, you kind of competing [00:11:50] for business. So there may be an element of we’re kind of divided ourselves artificially because somebody, [00:11:55] probably somebody NHS. There is almost a dismissive approach to an [00:12:00] NHS dentist. To stays in the NHS will surely, surely be bright enough to see that the NHS [00:12:05] is dead. You should be leaving. So there’s there’s almost a pejorative sense of [00:12:10] being an NHS dentist. So there’s kind of competition between dentists, but it’s also division because [00:12:15] you have dcp’s, you have different groups in the profession [00:12:20] wanting different things at different times. And I think that that also leads to that sort [00:12:25] of sense of division. And so I think that that’s a particular problem. But but the feeling of [00:12:30] making mistakes and errors and shame is probably not unique to dentistry. I [00:12:35] think everybody will find that every profession will have a have a every [00:12:40] professional person will have a sense of doing wrong and being ashamed about it basically in [00:12:45] every sort of profession. So I think that that’s just the nature of it.

Speaker1: But the problem with the problem with dentistry [00:12:50] per se, unlike, say, being a lawyer, is it’s personal because you’re actually doing [00:12:55] this treatment on this particular person and you’ve caused them this, or they accuse you of causing them this [00:13:00] particular harm. So it’s very direct. And you don’t have the the sort of corporate [00:13:05] response as you would, you know, you make a complaint to a hotel or a restaurant [00:13:10] or a, or an airline. Well, it doesn’t really matter who the pilot was, who the air hostess was, who’s [00:13:15] surging behind the counter. It’s a corporate response. So you don’t never feel that it’s you [00:13:20] directly, whereas here it’s you personally. It’s directly you. They’ll they’ll use your name in the complaint [00:13:25] and it’s going to be your treatment, your action, your words that they’re challenging. And I think that’s why it’s it’s [00:13:30] so personal. That’s why it gets to people so much as a, as a dentist. Because [00:13:35] on a human level, you go into work to do the best you can. Nobody goes into work saying, [00:13:40] you know, today I’m going to have a I’m just going to treat everybody badly. You go in, you know, with [00:13:45] that diligence that that feeling of wanting to do good. And, and I think [00:13:50] in a sense, the one of the, the joys of, [00:13:55] of that is the flip side of it because, because you, you want to go to do work [00:14:00] and do the best you can. But when it goes wrong, you take it very personally, um, because [00:14:05] you didn’t want to do wrong, you didn’t want it to go wrong, and it has gone wrong. So you take it very, very personally in a way [00:14:10] that probably I don’t even think even the medical professionals will, will take it as badly [00:14:15] as we do.

Speaker1: And we often talk about this concept of, of the the third [00:14:20] victim or the second victim. The third, the third victim is probably going to be you, you know, you, [00:14:25] you, you suffer as a direct result of that complaint or that error. And even if they don’t complain, [00:14:30] you know, you walk home and you’re thinking, oh my God, that’s me. I can’t believe I did this. I can’t [00:14:35] believe I missed that. And and every one of us, anybody who’s doing dentistry will have done that and have that [00:14:40] sinking feeling of, I’ve done something wrong. And even if the patient doesn’t complain, even if anybody [00:14:45] finds out about it, you have that sinking feeling. And I think that’s that. A that makes you a professional. [00:14:50] It makes you a caring professional. You’re not burnt out. It means you still care, which is great in itself. But [00:14:55] it’s but it is one of the the real challenges of being a clinician and dealing [00:15:00] directly with patients, and also the fact that it happens in real time, you know, it’s [00:15:05] the patient is not anaesthetised. Um, you’re they’re, you know, they’re not under general anaesthetic. [00:15:10] You can do what you like in the general anaesthetic and it goes wrong. Well, there’s no panic. There’s no stress here. You know, [00:15:15] instantly something goes wrong. They know you know it. And I think that’s that’s why it’s [00:15:20] it’s so challenging as a, as a profession when something goes wrong. Because, because it is [00:15:25] ever so personal.

Speaker3: I mean, it’s very interesting because I do another podcast at mental health [00:15:30] podcast around dentistry and um, this question of, [00:15:35] you know, suicide. Why? Why dentists? Why, why not brain surgeons? [00:15:40] And I was talking to my, um, my cousin, he’s a he’s an eye surgeon. [00:15:45] And we were talking about this question of the live patient, and [00:15:50] he was saying how much more tired he is, how much more drained he is. And [00:15:55] the patient said it’s an LA compared to if it’s a GA situation [00:16:00] and it’s something that we take for granted. But the cumulative stress [00:16:05] of that live patient and the thing you’re saying about taking things personally, I [00:16:10] probably the the best legal advice of Dental legal advice [00:16:15] I’ve heard in my whatever years is not to take complaints [00:16:20] personally, but it’s inevitable. I mean, what you just described is inevitable, [00:16:25] and in fact, even worse than the situation that you described is when you really feel like you did your very [00:16:30] best and the patient thinks you didn’t, and your patient, you know, the patient’s got it [00:16:35] wrong, but you did your very best. And and now your livelihood is on the line and all those things. Right? [00:16:40] Yeah. Um, I think, on the other hand, the question of why are we not sort of more [00:16:45] united? Do you agree with me that sometimes under the guise of patient’s [00:16:50] best interests, we’re particularly nasty to each other, you know, because [00:16:55] we’ve got that sort of that cover of we’re doing this, we’re talking we’re having this conversation for the patient. It’s [00:17:00] not, you know, that’s the cover that we’re under. And so we can just be as nasty as we like because [00:17:05] because we’re caring so much for our patients. Yeah.

Speaker1: It’s a concept. Yeah I think so. And [00:17:10] yeah. And yeah, you could do because you’re saying, well, the reason you put [00:17:15] something up on our Instagram and somebody criticised it and you say, well, the reason I’m saying [00:17:20] this is because I don’t think you’ve done the best for that patient. And you’re not asking the patient’s best interests, which [00:17:25] is which is interesting because I’m not quite sure whose best interest some of these things are founded [00:17:30] in, you know, but but, but picking up this thing about stress and one of the other things I find what I, [00:17:35] what I, what I think is also particularly challenging is something my, my son mentioned the other day. [00:17:40] He says, how is it that you can be? He says, it’s really tiring [00:17:45] being nice to people all day. Yeah, okay. And I thought, actually there’s an interesting concept, he says, because I [00:17:50] just go to work, you know, if I have a bad day or a bad day, you know, I can sit behind my [00:17:55] computer, whatever. But you, dad, you’ve got to be nice to every single person. And if you’ve had if you’ve [00:18:00] done something bad, if something’s not gone quite right, you’ve got an ex patient’s coming, you know, do come in. [00:18:05] Have a seat. It’s a wonderful. And or you’re running late and you have to you have to slow [00:18:10] down even more.

Speaker1: So uh, you know, you’re running 15 minutes late. They know that that you’re [00:18:15] trying to rush them and you say, no, have a seat. How’s your grandchildren? How are the kids? How was your holiday? And you, [00:18:20] you’re an actor. You’re playing this game. And it’s hard. It’s hard work particularly, [00:18:25] you know, we talk about this thing about mental stress and and, you know, having time out because we [00:18:30] say you should be doing two things. One, celebrate the success. So when something goes really well, you fitted [00:18:35] the crowd patients really happy. And they walk out and you’re fantastic and you think, right, next, next patient [00:18:40] come in, you’re thinking, no chance to even absorb that and enjoy that moment. Basically with with [00:18:45] the staff or the flip side when something doesn’t go quite, quite right. Not catastrophic, but [00:18:50] it’s difficult. It’s difficult extraction. You’re stressed, you’re anxious, and you’re now running late and the next patient comes in, you [00:18:55] just got a big smile on your face, and you’ve got to do it all over again. And it’s I was talking to [00:19:00] somebody. They say the doctors that the medical students are now looking [00:19:05] at seeing has anybody done their A level has done acting okay. And [00:19:10] I thought that was an interesting concept because actually you’re going to be a pretty good actor. Yeah. You know as a, as a clinician [00:19:15] because it because you’ve got to you’ve almost got to subjugate your own personality, [00:19:20] your own your own views because you know, you know, somebody says, oh, I [00:19:25] hate the Tories.

Speaker1: Yeah. The Tories are terrible. Next patient comes in I hate the Labour Party. Yeah, yeah. The Labour Party is terrible [00:19:30] basically. And you’re thinking, right, okay. I don’t want to have an argument with you. We’re just we’re just going to run this particular [00:19:35] thing. And people have very strong views. They don’t know what our views are yet. They’ll, they’ll they’ll express their [00:19:40] views and you’ve got to stay up. Yeah yeah, yeah that’s fine. That’s fine. So I think it’s, it is, [00:19:45] it’s and I think it’s that challenging nature we started at the beginning talking about, you know, what makes [00:19:50] a good dentist. What makes a good dentist is that ability to be a good actor, but also be [00:19:55] empathetic. But you know, but but have that those communication skills and it’s not necessarily about [00:20:00] and actually being being able to cope with that, that that sort of constant [00:20:05] being in the limelight. Um, with those patients, uh, you’re almost being a, being [00:20:10] an actor on a stage, but the stage is just you in that patient and also your nurse, your [00:20:15] nurse is also privy to all your errors and all your your mishaps as well. [00:20:20]

Speaker3: I think, you know, having having left dentistry that or clinical dentistry, I think now [00:20:25] for me, it’s 12 years ago. It’s the thing I miss the most is those conversations. [00:20:30] I mean, it could be a big part of the reason why I do a pod is because [00:20:35] I want to have conversations with people in my office. I’m in my office right now in my office. It’s [00:20:40] it’s the same. It’s the same group of people. Much as I love them, it’s the same group of people [00:20:45] continuously. And it’s so weird because when you when you’re a dentist, [00:20:50] humans are kind of in the way of you doing doing the work. Yeah, [00:20:55] but it’s only when you stop that you realise the bits that you really miss. [00:21:00]

Speaker1: It’s spot on. Absolutely. I mean, there was, there was. I think it was, uh. Must have been [00:21:05] two years ago now. I had a diagnosed neuralgic amyotrophy, basically. So my [00:21:10] hand basically just froze. Uh, one Monday and that that hand was slipping out of my hand and, [00:21:15] and basically as a, as a neuralgic amyotrophy of of [00:21:20] of of a nerve, basically. So, um, so I had to stop work and I’d stopped work [00:21:25] for in the end, it was about 7 or 8 weeks, and there was a possibility that I wouldn’t be able to go back to work [00:21:30] again. And it was a catastrophic not not for any other reason that actually it [00:21:35] wasn’t about the money because because the practice was running perfectly well. Um, there’s no issue necessarily I could [00:21:40] carry on working at the indemnity, so. But I’d be stopping till then. So the two things that affect me [00:21:45] most was the potentially the forced retirement of suddenly saying, right, you’re not working anymore. [00:21:50] And that wasn’t your decision. It was nature’s way of saying stop. And the other thing was actually a conversation. [00:21:55] I, I, my, my wife had come back. First of all, she’d say, I saw your patient, which is always a bad thing to say when you [00:22:00] say, well, so what, what did I do wrong then? And she said, well, why were you doing x, Y and z? And, and [00:22:05] and what I missed most was the conversation.

Speaker1: She was chatting about the patients. Um, started by the [00:22:10] practice. And I thought, you know what? I missed that. What I miss most was actually this conversation with the patient, [00:22:15] the chat, the interaction. And I’m stuck at home here, basically just looking at the four walls. [00:22:20] And that’s what, you know. And it was just like with Covid and people stuck and thinking, actually, when all our staff [00:22:25] came back after Covid, they said, I’m so glad to be back. Back here working. My husband [00:22:30] or wife is is still at home, but I love coming in. And it was just it’s the conversation. It’s a human contact. [00:22:35] And and yes, it may be stressful, but one thing and I think people probably [00:22:40] underestimate just how powerful that a human interaction is [00:22:45] to your own wellbeing. Because, you know, I come home and I say to my wife, oh, guess what? You know, I was chatting to [00:22:50] this person about this, this and said, oh, you know, be a good place to go on holiday. They’ve mentioned this place to that place. [00:22:55] You’re thinking, oh my goodness me, or such and such is happened and you’re thinking, right, and that’s, that’s a conversation. [00:23:00] And that’s the beauty of that human interaction. I think we, we underestimated our peril.

Speaker3: I [00:23:05] it’s interesting, I’ve had that situation too, where I treated my wife’s [00:23:10] list of patients when she took maternity. And what I found really interesting was the [00:23:15] conversations I was having with her patients were completely different to the ones she was having. [00:23:20] And you take it for granted that, you know, you get the same thing from the same [00:23:25] patient. So Mr. Smith, he’s a lovely man or whatever it is, [00:23:30] but totally different. Like she’d been seeing these patients for eight years, and I was talking [00:23:35] to them about questions she’d never asked before. Yeah, it really is. I [00:23:40] don’t know, I don’t want to say it’s the best bit of dentistry because there’s there’s loads of dentists who love the other part. [00:23:45] Right. The Meccano piece, uh, bless him, Lewis McKenzie always used to tell me about [00:23:50] the pleasure he used to get from just matrixing something correctly, [00:23:55] you know, just just doing that and, you know, just doing a very simple mo composite [00:24:00] and how much pleasure he would get from that. So, you know, there’s different areas of dentistry. [00:24:05] Um, but for me, definitely that, that social side, definitely the most important one. Let’s get let’s [00:24:10] get to um, darker questions. I’ve really been looking forward [00:24:15] to asking you about clinical errors, legal problems that you’ve [00:24:20] had. What’s been your most difficult patient?

Speaker1: Me personally.

Speaker3: As a dentist.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:24:25] Yeah I the, the clinic I have I had I’ve had a claim [00:24:30] and I’ve actually used it in a couple of presentations basically. And the [00:24:35] what it was, was basically was a, I prescribed penicillin to [00:24:40] an allergic patient. Penicillin. Uh, Perkins alleged penicillin, basically. And, you know, I’ve [00:24:45] gone through it so many times in the past, but essentially in my own head, what happened? But it [00:24:50] was a classic. Patients in pain squeezed in and gave some antibiotics. [00:24:55] You needed a bit of swelling, gave some antibiotics, prescribed it on a Wednesday. And [00:25:00] I get it. I go in on Saturday morning for my for my clinic and it’s [00:25:05] 8:45. And the receptionist says to me, oh, you need to phone [00:25:10] up Mr. Smith. You saw Mrs. Smith on Wednesday. You, Mr. Smith, wants to talk to you. Uh, his wife’s [00:25:15] in hospital. She’s in ICU. Um, he wants to know, uh, what [00:25:20] you’ve given him. He’s not going to sue you, but he wants to know. And I’m thinking this is a great line. At [00:25:25] 8:45 on a Saturday morning, I haven’t seen any [00:25:30] patients. And I’m thinking. Right, uh, that’s just what I need to hear, basically. So so I said, right, [00:25:35] okay, what’s the patient? Let me have a good look. And I think I did good mathematics, actually. Hang on a sec. [00:25:40] Uh, they’re allergic, so why why I didn’t give them penicillin. So. [00:25:45] So anyway, they so I sent the patient back up, uh, looked at it and said, right. Okay. Really [00:25:50] sorry to hear about your wife.

Speaker1: What? It’s gone. She’s nice to you. Um, so she so sorry [00:25:55] I gave it on the Monday. So? So she says she had a rash, came out with a rash. They [00:26:00] thought it was meningitis, so they. They’d give. They’d been treating it as meningitis. And I said, okay, it’s fine. [00:26:05] And I said, so I said yes, I did give her a penicillin. She’s obviously alleged penicillin. And I’ve [00:26:10] looked at the records and she did tell me she’s allergic to penicillin on our notes, so I don’t know why I did it. I’m really, really sorry. [00:26:15] It’s my fault. Okay. Um. And he says, well, not really your fault. I just it’s probably my [00:26:20] fault. I said, why is your fault? He said, well, because I know she’s allergic. Penicillin. So when you gave it, I should have checked it. I said, well, [00:26:25] not your problem, it’s my problem. So I said, well, uh, and he says, well, I said [00:26:30] possibly, you know, the, the pharmacist, but it’s, you know, I wrote the prescriptions is my problem. Is that okay? That’s fine, [00:26:35] I said, but you know, he said, but also he said, but he says interestingly, he says the um, we [00:26:40] knew she was allegedly penicillin, that the, um, the hospital’s given a penicillin. I said, sorry, [00:26:45] well, they’ve given a penicillin because they think it’s meningitis. I said, well, what are they doing? Will they be giving [00:26:50] a I.V. penicillin? I’m thinking, hang on a second. I said, I’m gonna check this. This is so. [00:26:55]

Speaker1: I said, don’t they know she’s alleged penicillin? He said, well, it is on the records, but I don’t think [00:27:00] so. I’m thinking, right. Okay. So this is this is interesting. I said, well, I’ll, I’ll take full responsibility for it. And [00:27:05] so, so on the Monday we’ve changed our system. So it’s [00:27:10] on all the records. If anybody’s on penicillin or water or anything else, there’s a pop up note. Whatever. We [00:27:15] had a meeting, we discussed it. Um, we had a we had a incident report, [00:27:20] you know, twice around the the practice meeting, etc., etc. so fine, I’m not going to happen again. [00:27:25] And that was the last. So then about two months, about uh, [00:27:30] 4 or 5 weeks later, I wrote to him, explained everything, explained what we’ve done, explained why it had happened, [00:27:35] um, why it wasn’t gonna happen in the future, etc., etc. and about it was all silent. About a month later he wrote back [00:27:40] and said, it’s a thank you for your letters. Been a bit of a bit of a nightmare journey. She’s okay. She’s better [00:27:45] now. Thank you very much. But if you hadn’t admitted, if you hadn’t said, if you hadn’t taken responsibility [00:27:50] for it, I would have taken it further. Okay. So. Okay. Interesting. Fantastic. Uh, so that [00:27:55] was fine. And, you know, you know, and I think somebody said to me, did you contact your defence [00:28:00] organisation said, well, not really, because I knew what I was going to do. And the answer was I had to be open, I had to be open.

Speaker1: I’d be honest, [00:28:05] had to be truthful, told the patient, and there’s no point hiding out, going to admit it without any shadow of a doubt [00:28:10] that I’d made the error. But the and they said, oh, well, he says, well, the GDC [00:28:15] would also want you to do exactly what I’ve done, because and in the end, if [00:28:20] it ever came to GDC case, would they would my fitness to practice be impaired? The answer is no, because I’ve [00:28:25] learned from it. It won’t happen again. Repetition is very unlikely. Your current fitness practice will be impaired. [00:28:30] So I was worried about the GDC. Was I worried about it saying possibly as it happened, nothing [00:28:35] happened. Four months later I did get a claim. Okay from that, from the from the parents, [00:28:40] from the wife. Basically claim for whatever made a claim of about well [00:28:45] started at 20 grand basically and um for hospitalisation. And I thought actually, you know what, what’s [00:28:50] happened here? They’ve been at a dinner party. Somebody mentioned, you know what? I was [00:28:55] in hospital. She’s quite ill. Why? Because the dentist gave her penicillin. But what did you do about [00:29:00] it or nothing? He apologised. I wouldn’t do that. Hang on a sec. You better sue him. He’s already [00:29:05] admitted it. Go and sue him. So they did. Basically they. They sued. But. But interestingly enough, I [00:29:10] was a dental practice at the time and said, you know this is very interesting. I. Before we settle this claim, [00:29:15] I need to see the hospital records.

Speaker1: Get this close to the records. We’ll see what’s going on. And they had. They’d actually given [00:29:20] her IV penicillin. Okay. When she was. When she was. The reason [00:29:25] why she ended up in it was because they’d given her the, the the penicillin. Obviously, I’d given her penicillin [00:29:30] as well, but but they’d given it to our IV. So. So she’s critically ill as a result of [00:29:35] them and, and I think and and I said, right. Okay. We do need to point out to them we’ll [00:29:40] settle the case because I triggered the whole thing. She wouldn’t be in hospital in the first place. It wasn’t for me, but [00:29:45] but it was compounded subsequently by what the hospital did. So we said, okay, [00:29:50] we reduce the claim down. She she got £10,000 for it. She was just happy and that was the end of it. But but but [00:29:55] the the abiding memory for me is, is obviously making that mistake. And one of the [00:30:00] things I’m really passionate about is, is a we’ve got to learn from the mistakes, these things going to happen. [00:30:05] People make mistakes. People don’t do these things deliberately, but also the fact that I’d like [00:30:10] to be able to still be working in practice, to still have that connection with [00:30:15] our members, to say, you know, because often people say, well, it’s okay for you to talk about record keeping and [00:30:20] how good it should be. Well, you’re not you’re not in practice. Well, if I’m in practice, I’m still working [00:30:25] in a practice.

Speaker1: I still do NHS work. So I’m with you and I understand what’s going on. So I can be pragmatic with you, [00:30:30] but equally so I can be equally critical when you’ve done something really stupid because [00:30:35] it’s not really something that’s a reasonable dentist would do. So I think [00:30:40] it’s that that connection that allows me to to do that and hopefully [00:30:45] be a bit more empathetic to people’s situation, because I know I’ve been there and lots [00:30:50] of people will say, actually, you know what? I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t knowing what you do, [00:30:55] I wouldn’t I would have given up ages ago. And actually, I think because, you know, [00:31:00] you often can see the whole thing rolling out in front of you. You think, I know, I know where this is going [00:31:05] to end. You know, when that happened, I think, right, this is what I need to do to stop it going any further. Because because [00:31:10] this is going to if, unless, unless I do something now, it’s going to roll on and roll on, roll on. If I, if I’m [00:31:15] if I’m not honest, if I’m not open, if I’m not truthful, it’s just going to get worse. [00:31:20] Um, let me suffer the consequences ultimately. But let me just do something now. And I think when [00:31:25] people are because they don’t know the potential consequence, they get really fearful [00:31:30] and very closed and then and then get more trapped in [00:31:35] their way of thinking. Because thinking, oh, if I do this or I say this and I apologise, it’s just going to get worse, it’s going to get worse, going [00:31:40] to get worse.

Speaker1: I’m not going to do it. And I remember, you know, even in our own practice, um, a [00:31:45] patient was she was irrigating her pocket. Periodontal pocket, but was [00:31:50] given was given hypochlorite instead of instead of corsodyl because the [00:31:55] nurse is the nurse wasn’t wasn’t used to that surgery. Walked in and handed a prefilled syringe [00:32:00] which would normally prefilled syringes anymore. A prefilled syringe, which is actually hypochlorite she injected [00:32:05] into the pocket burning sensation and the dentist realised what had gone wrong. [00:32:10] And then the patient’s. What did he do? Said, well, yeah, don’t worry about it. It’ll be okay. What have you done? What [00:32:15] have you checked so well, if I tell you, you’d be more upset thinking, why did you say that? You should. [00:32:20] You should have just said it’s. You know, we picked up the wrong syringe. It’s it’s it’s hypochlorites [00:32:25] the bleaching agent. But, you know, it’ll be okay. Don’t worry. And the mystery and the subterfuge [00:32:30] made even worse because she was terrified as a as a young dentist, you think, oh my God, whatever I’ve [00:32:35] done, I’ve made a mistake. I can’t admit to the mistake. The answer is it is a terrible thing. It’s very [00:32:40] hard to admit to a mistake. But, you know, if you’re going to have to, you’re going to have [00:32:45] to fess up at some point. You may as well just do it now, basically. So I think that’s that’s the challenge, I.

Speaker3: Think, to your [00:32:50] earlier point about, you know, patients who have had injury [00:32:55] needing compensation, I think in your case there that that that’s fine. Right? [00:33:00] That £10,000, you know, there was there was injury there. But before you realise about [00:33:05] the hospital. Hiv and, uh, penicillin. [00:33:10] Did you suffer with shame?

Speaker1: I did, I [00:33:15] did because even more shame.

Speaker3: Because of who you are or or not.

Speaker1: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Because, [00:33:20] you know, it’s you know, you see those things all the time. You’re thinking, right, I shouldn’t make a mistake. [00:33:25] And then you go home to your wife, who’s also a dentist, thinking, so why did you do that? Okay, [00:33:30] okay, I don’t I don’t I don’t need you to criticise me as well. And you say, right, okay. [00:33:35] So did you not look at your notes? Did you not look at the medical street, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know I should have done all that. And [00:33:40] it’s, it’s even more obviously easy to stop. Um, so which makes it makes the [00:33:45] mistake so much more stupid. And you see. So why did I do that? And it’s just things [00:33:50] in a rush. You don’t check it. And, you know, we don’t have a proper process. And so, so some of [00:33:55] this some a lot of the errors in this is a classic. Atul Gawande talked about this checklist [00:34:00] manifesto where you actually you actually have checklist processes. So so [00:34:05] most of what we, we talk about at PD is, you know, if [00:34:10] you have the right process in place, you will risk manage a lot of these things out.

Speaker1: So if we actually had [00:34:15] a pop up note that said, you know, pink pop up little pink pop up notes now for medical, [00:34:20] uh, medical interactions, you’d see that and you’re thinking, right, I’d see it. Uh, the [00:34:25] nurse would see it and he’d say, are you sure you’re going to prescribe this or whatever? So there wasn’t a system. So [00:34:30] there is a system now, and every time something goes wrong, we respond, [00:34:35] or the profession ought to be responding to actually make sure we learn from [00:34:40] our errors. And that’s kind of this, this whole thing, you know, NHS are interred. Jason Wong’s interred about, [00:34:45] um, about, uh, safety, culture and learning from mistakes. We try desperately [00:34:50] to, as a profession, health care profession, to try and collate all these different problems [00:34:55] and errors, to create solutions which the airline industry does very well and we just do very badly. [00:35:00] So, you know, every one of the mistakes that, that, uh, that has happened [00:35:05] in my practice, I’ve seen over is all possible happen could be happening again and again and again. And people just [00:35:10] don’t put the systems in place, um, to stop it happening. Pretty true.

Speaker3: So I [00:35:15] want to get on to your practice, the story of that. So is [00:35:20] this. Am I right in thinking that? Did I read that this is the only practice you’ve ever worked at?

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:35:25] well, I pretty well I mean, I did, I worked as an associate in other [00:35:30] practice, belonged to the same guy. So when I, when I qualified, I was working as a foundation [00:35:35] dentist in his practice and he owned three practices. So I worked in all three [00:35:40] practice as, as as a VTE and then worked as an associate [00:35:45] at the end of the year, worked as an associate in his practice. And then in that literary [00:35:50] year later he worked in practice. In the year I was doing VTE, he wanted to sell it and he said, did you want to buy [00:35:55] it? Not in my year. So it was literally a couple of years later, so qualified [00:36:00] in finished my in 1990 and then bought it in January [00:36:05] of 93. Um, so were you.

Speaker3: Already married at this [00:36:10] point or. No.

Speaker1: Uh, we, uh, no, I was married in, uh, 1992, [00:36:15] and, and so we bought the well, uh, Anne was [00:36:20] working at the at that actually, she was working at the practice as well, basically at, uh, the, [00:36:25] uh, his practice basically. So the so but we bought the practice, [00:36:30] so bought the practice. Um, we exchanged on the practice on the same day we exchanged on our house. [00:36:35] So it’s a pretty stressful week basically. But but it was um, uh, but at that time it was. [00:36:40] So he sold his share, uh, to me. And there was an existing partner there, Melanie [00:36:45] Wainwright and Shadow Practice in Chelmsford. Eventually she sold that to me. So yeah. So [00:36:50] start off as a as a two therapy practice. But yeah. And funny enough, we celebrated [00:36:55] our 30th anniversary of buying the practice this year earlier this year. So we bought [00:37:00] this 92 not last year. Um, and 93. So last year we was [00:37:05] 30 years and I, and I was saying to somebody saying to somebody, I said, well, if I’d known, [00:37:10] uh, if somebody said to me, you’re going to leave, uh, dental school and you’re going to [00:37:15] stay in the same four walls for the next 30 years, uh, what do you think? [00:37:20] I’d say that’s completely mad. I’m not going to do that. Um, and there I am, standing in those same four walls, [00:37:25] look out the window onto, uh, onto the Woodford tube station. So, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s a it’s a strange, [00:37:30] strange sensation. Strange sensation.

Speaker3: But, uh, you know, I think Cliff talks about it a lot about [00:37:35] being in the same practice for years where you see your own mistakes. Um, and, [00:37:40] I mean, in 30 years, you’ve seen same family, grandchildren and so [00:37:45] forth. Yeah. Um, but but what I’m more interested in is the sort [00:37:50] of the business story, um, okay. What two, two surgery, NHS [00:37:55] practice, was it?

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: And now it’s the same site. Is it [00:38:00] that the same surgery. So what have you done built out and under and up. No African [00:38:05] thinking. Absolutely. Exactly.

Speaker1: So we were on the first floor, [00:38:10] um, and we were renting, paying rent to HSBC. Uh, so [00:38:15] HSBC were downstairs, uh, they had downstairs and they had, they had the basement, which [00:38:20] is the, uh, the safes and the safe deposit boxes. And so we rented off them and then [00:38:25] eventually they, they sold up, um, and then leased it [00:38:30] back off us. So all the banks at that time were, were going, coming off the high street. So [00:38:35] Barclays, NatWest, they’ve all left, they’ve all left. And so what they did was they basically went [00:38:40] to auction, went to a terrifying auction and got the property, [00:38:45] and then they leased it back basically off us. So so they carried on it. So we [00:38:50] got the rent from them. And then eventually three, about four years ago now they [00:38:55] said, right, we’re out here. Basically gave us three months notice and just left. Um, so we end this in this situation [00:39:00] of should we, should we rent out somebody else, uh, and just stay up on [00:39:05] the first? We’re now in the first and second floor. So what we’ve done was so interestingly. So we’re in the first floor, [00:39:10] but we, we, uh, classic, you know, uh, except by stealth, [00:39:15] uh, moved up to the first floor, which is, which was, which was a flat, which is the flat I lived in when [00:39:20] I first moved it, when I joined the practice, which is also one of the main attractions [00:39:25] of the practice, when I applied there, because it meant I didn’t have to go home again after university. [00:39:30] So that was the main attraction. So lived there, moved in with all my mates and then [00:39:35] um, eventually we got married and moved in there and stayed there for about 3 or 4 months before [00:39:40] we bought the house.

Speaker1: But uh, so then eventually converted that into more [00:39:45] surgeries and then so the first and second floor surgeries. And so we had this situation of, you know, [00:39:50] we’re now got this massive building. What are we going to do with it? Do we? [00:39:55] And so in the end we said, okay, there’s nothing more to do. We’re going to have to just go downstairs, gut [00:40:00] the gut downstairs, gut the basement. Uh, and we just have to work out of that. So it [00:40:05] went from four surgeries to seven surgeries in literally one fell swoop, basically. [00:40:10] So it was, um, a big, a big undertaking in terms of [00:40:15] what we do in terms of business, because one of the discussions that I had with the accountants. Uh, was [00:40:20] basically said it’s just going to be a higher growth but more hassle [00:40:25] and probably not much more profit, I think. Okay, well that’s interesting. That’s that. And he’s [00:40:30] absolutely right. But it wasn’t it wasn’t right about the profit because because obviously it worked out okay. Once you’ve [00:40:35] made the investment to to by the by the by the building, you’ve got obviously no rent and [00:40:40] no rent, rent issues. And you can now do exactly what you want to do. So we’ll put central heating in. [00:40:45] We put the whole lot air conditioning, which we would never have done if it wasn’t our building. So it is a [00:40:50] very high respect in terms of the comfort of the place.

Speaker1: And you have control over that. [00:40:55] And I think so. So you know, and then over the but what is what is becoming [00:41:00] more difficult is we then after or during Covid we, we switched [00:41:05] to um, the sessions basically to. So we’ve now so the practice is now open [00:41:10] from seven in the morning till eight in the evening. Um, so it’s now very busy. But [00:41:15] you to matter to, to staff that number of that, that hours [00:41:20] of surgery. You we now have 65 members of staff okay. On one site. So [00:41:25] it’s it is astronomically difficult. So my wife so Ann does an awful lot [00:41:30] basically. So the success of that practice is, is entirely down to for the last ten years because [00:41:35] it you know, it’s not something she spent a huge amount of time. She is the detailed person and [00:41:40] does a huge amount of work to keep that place or keep that place going. We’ve got got two practice managers, [00:41:45] and that’s still not enough because you still need sort of, you know, oversight of all the different people. [00:41:50] And we’ve now sort of moved into sort of specialists and etc., etc., which is kind of the next big thing [00:41:55] we’re trying to do, make sure we’ve got some specialists, um, or got a specialist, um, [00:42:00] evening in a few weeks time. We’ve got a CT scan, we’ve got itero, intraoral [00:42:05] scanners and stuff like so, so, so that, you know, it’s it’s an undertaking in itself, [00:42:10] but it’s worked out because it’s a family practice. You know, people come back again and [00:42:15] again and again. Um, how.

Speaker3: Did you feel these other chairs?

Speaker1: Um, [00:42:20] it’s just organically because because, you know, we we’ve done it [00:42:25] for 20 years, and often the foundation dentist would [00:42:30] stay. If we like them, we keep them on and then we build another, put them into another surgery [00:42:35] and off we go again. And so one of the beauties of the practice largely is built [00:42:40] by built on the backs of people who understand the values, the [00:42:45] what we believe in. So the PhDs arrive, they understand the system, [00:42:50] they understand how we operate, and they stay because they like it. And and sometimes people coming [00:42:55] from a different practice just don’t get the ethos. And it takes them some time to understand what we’re up to while [00:43:00] we’re doing things. We’re not actually about generating shedloads of money off patients because our views very much, [00:43:05] they’re going to be for the long terme. We want to work with you for the next ten, 15, 20 years. We don’t need to [00:43:10] sell you a shedload of stuff in the first first visit. And sometimes dentists don’t get that. [00:43:15] And there’s a there’s a bit of frustration for us and for them to say it’s not how we work. Basically [00:43:20] it’s a different, different mode of operation here. So and, you know, they, they uh, the [00:43:25] practice is built up on, you know, I think for most practices, every single practice in the [00:43:30] country, it’s reputation, every business, it’s reputation, it’s trust. Uh, those are sort of two words [00:43:35] that most companies, businesses, it’s all about trust and reputations. And as long as you [00:43:40] you do your best to maintain that trust, the reputation will follow.

Speaker3: Basically, I think [00:43:45] look, the the model that you’re doing is I’ve seen some of the most successful [00:43:50] practices I’ve ever come across are that model because 65 [00:43:55] humans I mean there’s that could have been you could have been [00:44:00] it could have been a vanity metric here of eight practices. Yeah, [00:44:05] could have been. I mean, there’s many practices with 7 or 8 people [00:44:10] and running it 7 to 8. I accept that that’s [00:44:15] a HR nightmare, because you’ve got to persuade one whole [00:44:20] group of people to work till 8 p.m.. Yeah, but which actually I think that would be one of those [00:44:25] times personally. Um, but I hear often young dentists, I say I want a chain [00:44:30] of practices or something. Actually, if I, if I was going to do it myself, [00:44:35] this building that you can expand, it seems like a much more [00:44:40] efficient way of delivering volume.

Speaker1: Yeah. Because you’ve just got [00:44:45] because all you’re going to do is you’re going to you’re going to replicate those same systems [00:44:50] again and again and again. And actually that doesn’t necessarily generate more profit because because the profit [00:44:55] comes from the, uh, from the from the people doing the treatment. Basically, [00:45:00] it doesn’t have to be in a different site. And because and all you’ve got is more hassle, um, with these different sites, with the [00:45:05] different, um, managers, uh, different managers, different configuration, different type of patients. And so [00:45:10] we know the type of patients we attract, the sort of patients we want to want to keep. And, and [00:45:15] I you know, we often say you get the patients you deserve because if the patients are like [00:45:20] you and they trust you, they’ll refer their friends. And their friends are probably nice people, too. So you [00:45:25] get that build up of patients basically. And and I think, you know, that’s that’s probably [00:45:30] the most exciting thing about it is actually seeing that that grow. And, you know, somebody said, oh, you know, [00:45:35] you know, when are you going to retire? When are you going to sell the practice? And I’m thinking, actually, I’m not so sure I do want to [00:45:40] retire. I’m not sure what I could do with my time retiring, basically, but also the fact that we’ve [00:45:45] still got more to do.

Speaker1: I mean, we’d love to, you know, build up that the specialists and [00:45:50] and take referrals and stuff and, and I know that’s the most challenging thing to do now. Ten years [00:45:55] ago wouldn’t have been because nobody had specialists. Now everybody’s got a specialist operating [00:46:00] out of their practice, their part time. So so having a even a referral practice is challenging. But [00:46:05] because everybody now has a specialist coming to their practice, so us trying to attract [00:46:10] business from elsewhere is not is not going to be straightforward. But we’ve got enough patients of our [00:46:15] own to generate what we need to do. So our orthodontist is busy. He’s booked up 3 or 4 months. [00:46:20] The endodontist is busy, periodontist is busy. So so they are busy in their own right, [00:46:25] and you’d like them to be more busy. But you know, it’s it’s working off the back of our own patients. So [00:46:30] yeah. So you know as a model and the, the other concept for us is it’s, it is still [00:46:35] a mixed NHS and private practice. Um, and we’ve survived probably the best [00:46:40] part of 3 or 4 recessions over the last 30 years because we’re an NHS practice and people still [00:46:45] need their teeth doing.

Speaker1: And and for me it’s just a personal thing I do want to [00:46:50] give. I do want to give back to to the NHS that it has provided me with a great living [00:46:55] and great income, but and a good lifestyle. But, you know, and when I talk [00:47:00] to, uh, lots of people in our practice plan, they’ll be on various panels and they say, you’ve got [00:47:05] to you’ve got to move, you’ve got to move them. You know, it’s all over and thinking, yeah, I know I’m maybe [00:47:10] a bit of a dinosaur in still thinking the NHS is it’s not, it’s not functional, [00:47:15] basically. But in a sense there is. I just feel a sense of duty towards those [00:47:20] patients and some of our dentists, some of our staff members also think that actually we [00:47:25] do owe to those people. There’s lots of people that can’t afford private dentistry. They can just about afford NHS dentistry, let alone private [00:47:30] dentistry and what we can do with those patients. So and they’ve been with us for many, many years. So [00:47:35] I think there is some sense of community and wanting to be, to be part of that, that, [00:47:40] um, that, that service, that community, not just dump them all as they’re very private. [00:47:45]

Speaker3: I understand it. Um, of course I do. But [00:47:50] at the same time. I hated the third party involvement, [00:47:55] you know. Hated it. It is. I did my feet [00:48:00] and just like never again. Never do I want a third party to tell me anything. Yeah, [00:48:05] and I think the patient.

Speaker1: Yeah. And I think that’s that’s true. You know, increasingly, [00:48:10] you know, it’s the it’s the tail wagging the dog because we have so much, um, restrictions [00:48:15] because of the NHS and we’re, you know, we’re chasing udhas for the sake of chasing us. And [00:48:20] it takes up an inordinate amount of time to do those gdas to get to that, to hit that delivery, thinking, [00:48:25] why am I wasting my time doing this? So for, you know, a we can [00:48:30] spend our time seeing the seeing private patients. Um, so yeah, I think there’s, there’s a conflict in our, [00:48:35] in our own heads. Let’s.

Speaker3: Let’s imagine, for the sake of the argument that the friendly [00:48:40] Russian billionaire came and gave you $1 billion for your practice, what would [00:48:45] you do? What do you do next?

Speaker1: Uh, yeah, I’d probably. Yeah, I’d [00:48:50] what I would. I still see patients possibly, but but I mean I well, [00:48:55] the two things I’d like to carry on doing is, is this job, uh, the indemnity as this, [00:49:00] there’s so much more still to be done to get this, to get the policy wording, to get everything [00:49:05] as good as I possibly could. I’d like to, uh, I’ve been doing got back into photography [00:49:10] quite a bit, and I’ve done I’m in the middle of doing a photography diploma, um, and, [00:49:15] um, and I and I and I’ve, I’ve just been, I’ve just literally [00:49:20] taken two weeks time going to Scotland on a landscape photography workshop. I’ve just done the [00:49:25] last couple of months down to Dorset to Land’s End, Peak District, basically. [00:49:30] So, um, there’s a couple of people that follow. They do some workshops, which is great fun. Um, [00:49:35] and then and then up to Scotland, the freezing cold and north, uh, in Inverness. Yeah. [00:49:40] So I and I’d love to do that sort of stuff. I’ve trying to persuade my wife that, [00:49:45] you know, to get converting downstairs to a, to a dental surgery. So we’re not just dental studio, which [00:49:50] is. Are you. Are you kidding me? Well, how much money do you think you’re going to earn out of a out of a studio [00:49:55] in comparison to a dental chair? Okay. Fair enough. Um, so. Yeah. So that would be a [00:50:00] fun, a fun thing to do. But yeah, I think I think for me.

Speaker3: How many days do you actually, [00:50:05] uh, clinical do clinical?

Speaker1: Clinical. Two days a week. Two days. So, so the Wednesday Thursday. [00:50:10] Seven till seven. One till two in the afternoon. So seven hour days and the Wednesday seven hour days and [00:50:15] Thursday. Um, so it gives me sort of free time in three days and indemnity [00:50:20] and.

Speaker3: Clinically what’s your sort of treatments that you like to do and don’t like to do.

Speaker1: Um [00:50:25] I so increasingly I’m doing less and less invasive treatment basically. So [00:50:30] if, if somebody I could specialise in uh, lower right six buccal [00:50:35] composites quite easily basically because, because it’s going to be the simplest straightforward sort of thing. So, [00:50:40] so I, so, you know, we now have, uh, dentists who do, uh, you know, [00:50:45] difficult extraction spaces. I’m thinking. Right, what you know, and doing endo and thinking, why am I going to do [00:50:50] an endo for you privately or even on the NHS when there’s somebody in this room who could do this far [00:50:55] better? In fact, sitting over there is a microscope, you know, why am I going to? Why am I going to if I can, [00:51:00] if I can do if you can, if you allow me, if you allow this density [00:51:05] to, to work, you’d be better off. And they’ll say to me, oh, you’ve done the work before. I said, yeah, but I now have a specialist [00:51:10] in the practice who can do a far better job. You want some predictability? That’s great. So. So I’m happy to do endo [00:51:15] crowns. Bridges. Um, uh, I used to do a lot of. I [00:51:20] used to do a lot of ortho. Um, we now have an orthodontist in the practice, and so I’ve stopped doing that [00:51:25] and don’t do implants or do all surgery. And so [00:51:30] we’ve got the hygienist element of the practice is, is, is bizarre [00:51:35] because we’ve actually got we actually got I mean, we’ve got we’ve got eight hygienists in the practice. [00:51:40] Um, and there’s basically two days, there’s two, two [00:51:45] in every single day basically.

Speaker1: Um, maybe more. And it just it just worked out that way. You know, the, the [00:51:50] hygienist, uh, is a great part of the, um, the [00:51:55] health environment delivering that for the, for the patients. Patients love it. It’s working very well. [00:52:00] And and so, so building building on those foundations is, is really nice to [00:52:05] be able to work in that environment. So the hygienist services is, is is worked very well. [00:52:10] So yeah. So it’s and I think the difficulty and what that then generates [00:52:15] is you actually have specific hygienist meetings. You have specific dentist [00:52:20] meetings, you have specific nurses meetings. And so the hygienist feel as though they’re part of the [00:52:25] team. And because often the hygiene say I work in another practice, I’m on my own now. I come [00:52:30] in, I do, I do my hygiene work, I go upstairs, I do my own, uh, decontamination, [00:52:35] come downstairs and I go home. I don’t see anybody else. There is another hygienist, but we [00:52:40] never cross paths and I think so. So for them, it’s actually quite a really good, lively [00:52:45] sort of atmosphere to, for us to have hygienist meetings. Uh, and, you know, every quarter [00:52:50] and they, they get then you know, they as a, as a, as a cartel [00:52:55] if you want, they get what they want. If you tell us what you want, we’ll do it. You know, you are clinicians, [00:53:00] and you’re right. Uh, we’re more than happy to support you because you’re doing a fantastic job.

Speaker3: And what’s your involvement [00:53:05] with the practice other than the clinical? Do you do anything else or do you act more like an associate? [00:53:10]

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s. Yeah. What if I was [00:53:15] if I was generating money for myself as a as a as an associate, I’d probably just be able to afford [00:53:20] a kebab on the way home basically. Because. Because it’s not it’s not a huge because because the two [00:53:25] things. One is I end up, um, so a lot of regular patients who’ve been seeing. So there’s not a huge we’re [00:53:30] not doing a huge amount of treatment on these patients. And also, yeah, also having to pick up every so often [00:53:35] the patients who uh, the one you know not to be each attempt [00:53:40] is refused to see the patients. So inevitably they end up with me saying, right, okay, fine, I’ll see this patient. Um, and [00:53:45] so that that’s fine. And, and for me, you know, and it’s something I, I [00:53:50] never chased the money. The money, just money just came basically. So, so I kind of act as an associate, and [00:53:55] my wife does an awful lot of the and as an awful lot of the sort of the, the [00:54:00] oversight of it. Um, so I used to do that around when the kids were young. She was at home, [00:54:05] but she’s kind of taken over, uh, the vast majority. And I think that’s that is actually quite stressful for [00:54:10] her.

Speaker1: Um, because she kind of does, obviously, she does her own two days of, of clinical work. [00:54:15] Uh, and she’s also running the practice the rest of the time. She does pretty well. A lot of the stuff she’s [00:54:20] doing, she does all the wages for the associates, the other wage for the for the staff, which is a, you know, literally [00:54:25] four days every month is, is, is doing just that, basically, uh, in addition to organising [00:54:30] all the meetings and stuff. So, so I think she’s, um, you know, and I think that’s probably [00:54:35] more tiring. She actually enjoys the clinical dentistry. She’s she doesn’t want to give it up because she enjoys it so much. Um, [00:54:40] that’s the relief from, from the, the hard admin work and the running the practice. So [00:54:45] she’s really made a huge contribution that the practice wouldn’t be what it is with without her basically. So I’m kind of [00:54:50] dropping it out there and it when she says, well, you’re a useful figurehead in the practice. [00:54:55] Um, uh, but but it allows, you know, and we, we have different sort of styles [00:55:00] of managing the practice and managing those meetings. It’s also, uh, quite useful. Um, [00:55:05] so, so yeah.

Speaker3: We’re coming to the end of our time, but I want to touch on one other thing [00:55:10] before we move on to the final questions. Is this question of sort of getting involved? Yeah. [00:55:15] With stuff.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s an.

Speaker3: Active process, right? It’s not. It doesn’t [00:55:20] happen by mistake that you do all the list of things that that I listed at the beginning. It’s [00:55:25] an active process of seeking out, wanting to get your hands dirty and and I don’t know, maybe [00:55:30] maybe I’m being a bit like, uh, characterising it incorrectly, but I feel like [00:55:35] I, I’ve noticed this with, with, uh, Kenyans in particular. Um, [00:55:40] there’s a sense of community or something that everyone, you know, I’ve had several. [00:55:45] I mean, we talk about true and um, one one of my favourite episodes we’ve [00:55:50] ever done on this pod is, uh, Vishal Vishal Shah. But but tell me about that. You know, [00:55:55] because I feel like I do the opposite. I actively try and get away from boards [00:56:00] of things and.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s funny. I mean, I think [00:56:05] the, I suppose one of the drivers when I was a kid [00:56:10] wasn’t, it was actually it was actually the A level that did it because I realised that I had [00:56:15] to do physics, uh, for A level. But I was actually hopeless at it. And, and it was [00:56:20] this classic thing where you’d be sitting in a physics class, uh, the guy would put up the problem, basically, [00:56:25] and I’d just be reading it and somebody put their hand up and they said, they know the answer. I’m thinking, I haven’t even [00:56:30] read the question. What are you doing? Okay, so people just exceptionally bright and very good at what they do. And [00:56:35] I and I vowed, I said, all I want to do is to be good at something, to be to be good at that [00:56:40] and be known for being good at it. And my my wife is always winding me up about that because you just [00:56:45] want to be famous and I don’t want to be famous. I just want to be good at something so I can feel that actually I’ve achieved [00:56:50] something because. Because for the whole of those two years, um, uh, in those classes, [00:56:55] I just felt like a complete idiot, basically thinking, right, you know, I’m just useless. I know I’m going to fail [00:57:00] no matter how many times I’m up past papers that I know. I feel like.

Speaker3: You’re quite black and white. Like, [00:57:05] I feel like if you don’t know 100% of it, you feel like. You know none of it. Yeah, something like [00:57:10] that.

Speaker1: Yeah, that is true. Absolutely. Because because when I, when I do it, I want to be sure I’ve [00:57:15] done it well and, and get involved in it. So which is why the law degree when I did it [00:57:20] um, all these other sort of post-grad qualification, the teaching, I just have to make sure I know enough about [00:57:25] this to be confident that I can do it. But did mentoring did a whole lot, of course. Because because because [00:57:30] I didn’t want to. Part of is also thinking, I’m not going to know this unless I study about it. [00:57:35] I don’t I don’t have the discipline to just read around the subject. I know people will now rely on YouTube’s [00:57:40] and YouTube and TikTok and stuff like that, thinking it’s the same as photography. I mean, I could [00:57:45] quite easily just download a shedload of YouTube videos and watch it and learn myself [00:57:50] and teach myself. And yes, I could, but actually what I’ve what I’ve got from this formal [00:57:55] education of things diploma is actually I would never have learnt about the history of photography and [00:58:00] learnt about the origins of it and what these particular photographers have done, because it wouldn’t be part [00:58:05] of, uh, anything I undertook on YouTube.

Speaker1: But actually I’ve learnt an awful lot from it and actually got [00:58:10] there’s a discipline about learning in a sort of structured way, and that’s, that’s probably just me. In [00:58:15] order to learn those things and be confident about it, there has to be a sort of structure, structured approach to it, [00:58:20] and it’s postgraduate certificate, diploma, masters, whatever. That’s that’s just the way [00:58:25] I learn, because I can’t rely on myself to say, all right, okay, I’m going to do this and I’m just going to do this without, [00:58:30] without, without sort of, sort of some sort of formal thing. I did it, you know, rather being able [00:58:35] to did an Open University course, um, an Arts Foundation course, because I think I actually want to [00:58:40] know about this stuff, but I wanted to do in a formal way. So there’s something probably controlling it. [00:58:45] May be it may be a maybe a go and maybe a Kenyan mentality, but it certainly is something that I think, you [00:58:50] know, driven partly by my dad saying, you know, you need a bit of courtesy, you need you a bit of [00:58:55] paper. And that’s kind of probably prompted most of my sort of driving my [00:59:00] what I describe as my drive, basically.

Speaker3: How much of your identity [00:59:05] is going to feel going?

Speaker1: Yeah. Interestingly, [00:59:10] it’s because obviously I’ve married an Irish girl. Um, you’re both Catholics, [00:59:15] you were telling me, but yeah, both Catholics, um, um, you know, my [00:59:20] fairly religious sort of background, my, my, my mum’s side, there was three [00:59:25] nuns and three priests. So it’s pretty religious. On Anne’s side [00:59:30] there is, there is one nun. So it’s fairly sort of it’s not it’s not [00:59:35] rammed down our kids throats and they go to church up until they were sort of got, you know, [00:59:40] baptised commune till they were younger. And it’s up to you if you want to go to church now, we’ve set it out for you. So, so [00:59:45] there is um, in terms of being going, I think, I think I’m [00:59:50] the problem with the diaspora to go and diaspora is it’s not [00:59:55] as embedded as, say, any other sort of parts of India or Pakistan [01:00:00] or Southeast Asia, because there is a language, we hardly ever use the language. Um, so [01:00:05] there’s no sort of Konkani is the common language, but it’s never used as much as it could have been used, basically. [01:00:10] Um, so, so yeah, I think it’s I do feel I [01:00:15] could be more and the kids are obviously, you know, half Irish, half going, um, but [01:00:20] they understand both sides of it. Do they.

Speaker3: Um, to. [01:00:25] Well I’m doing.

Speaker1: She is going.

Speaker3: Go, go in Kenya. [01:00:30]

Speaker1: Uh, I think she is. And then there is, there’s a lucky for you.

Speaker3: Yeah. [01:00:35]

Speaker1: Yeah, there is. I know there is. It’s not not not a good look. Exactly. Not a good look. Exactly, [01:00:40] exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Let’s get on to our final questions. Yeah. [01:00:45] Let’s start with the fantasy dinner party. Yeah. Three guests, [01:00:50] dead or alive. Three guests. Who would you have? Okay.

Speaker1: Okay. Uh, this might sound a bit left field. [01:00:55] Um, but it’s it’s going to be Madhur Jaffrey. Okay. The the Indian [01:01:00] cook. And I’m not sure anybody else has mentioned there before. No. She’s dead. She’s dead. [01:01:05] Okay, so it’s sounds like and I think, um, partly because, well, she’s [01:01:10] going to make the dinner. It’s going to be a great dinner party because she’s great.

Speaker3: Okay. She’s gonna she’s gonna [01:01:15] cook.

Speaker1: The dinner for us, basically. Um, but there are a couple of reasons for that. One is, [01:01:20] um, my mother was an amazing cook. She’s still around, but she’s, uh, [01:01:25] she’s an she’s an amazing cook. When we, um, we arrived in England. What is interesting [01:01:30] is that. And she could turn her hand to to most things to Indian, Chinese, modern [01:01:35] European. And I kind of watched her cook, um, as she grew up. And it was I. My [01:01:40] passion for cooking comes from her, and I love cooking. Now I really well, now I do most of the sort [01:01:45] of cooking at home basically. But but but the interesting thing about, uh, Madhur [01:01:50] Jaffrey was that she was she did a BBC book back in the, [01:01:55] you know, back in the early 80s when you wouldn’t be able to find you wouldn’t find coriander, [01:02:00] you wouldn’t find any spices at all, anywhere, anywhere, anywhere in England. [01:02:05] And she actually created this sort of this whole culture of Indian food. Bbc television [01:02:10] had a book, um, called Madhur Jaffrey Indian Cooking, and then their classic [01:02:15] was Flavours of India and India. Actually, there’s, there’s funny enough was looking at it the other day [01:02:20] and there’s a huge amount of go and cooking in there, which again, you know, there’s [01:02:25] a couple of dishes, um, which are sort of pork dishes which, which was handed down from my [01:02:30] mum to me, um, which was used basically. And there’s some fantastic recipes in there. So, so that [01:02:35] was, you know, and for me, you know, this, this being an immigrant family being brought up [01:02:40] on Indian cooking is just, just great. Um, uh, she kind of made it popular. And, [01:02:45] you know, you’re now you can walk into any store and you’ll find pretty well, you can [01:02:50] find go and pastes basically go and go and food in there, which you would never have done, you know, 20, [01:02:55] 25 years ago. So, so, so, so she’s, she’s in there for partly because of my mum, [01:03:00] but partly because she’s going to make a good, good meal for us when we get there.

Speaker3: Who’s [01:03:05] your second guest?

Speaker1: Second guest. Uh, would be Frederick Forsyth. Uh, [01:03:10] he’s an author. He’s not exactly high brow, but he was kind of the the first [01:03:15] author, uh, first book that I read or first? First real book I read when [01:03:20] I was a kid. Uh, probably, uh, you know what, 11, 12 years old? He wrote that. So the the Odessa [01:03:25] file, which was this story about this guy chasing Nazi war criminals, then got me interested in [01:03:30] in the whole thing about the Holocaust was about death, a jackal. The assassination attempts on Charles [01:03:35] de Gaulle, uh, dogs of war, all these sort of classic books. And I sort of read and so I so [01:03:40] it’s a classic sort of thing. And probably one of the few authors that I’ve read 2 or 3 times who read the book a couple [01:03:45] of times when I was a kid, I probably wouldn’t have time to read books twice again, but I did then, [01:03:50] and that sort of got me into. So he his his genre was very much weaving [01:03:55] fiction through real life people. So the whole thing about The Day of the Jackal was Charles [01:04:00] de Gaulle had had several assassination attempts on him, and he just weaved this sort of fictional [01:04:05] character that was going to attempt an assassination on him, again, based on sort of meticulous research. And [01:04:10] I kind of got. So the writing is fantastic. It’s not a, you know, it’s not a high [01:04:15] brow author. But actually, that got me into reading, got me into, uh, into writing, wanting to write myself. [01:04:20] Um, and that’s kind of in a sense, the that whole connection with, [01:04:25] um, with English came from that. And, and obviously obviously they [01:04:30] were O-levels and A-levels and did Thomas Hardy and all the other stuff.

Speaker1: But but of course I it would be a good guess. [01:04:35] And, and for me, the, the reason why I ended up at Dental protection was because [01:04:40] I wrote an awful lot when I, as soon as I, um, was out in the out [01:04:45] of dental school, I was writing a lot, got got 2 or 3 articles published in the age. I had written [01:04:50] stuff in in as it was the probe magazine thing. And people want [01:04:55] people who could write, uh, and I was and I was therefore high profile. And the interesting thing you [01:05:00] can get to be high profile now very quickly, um, without doing much, without much effort, because [01:05:05] of Instagram, because the social media, back in those days to be noticed in the profession, you had to work really [01:05:10] hard. It wasn’t an easy thing to be recognised. You did, you know, you did the lecture circuit. You did, [01:05:15] uh, you know, six, three, six, three courses. You did a whole lot of stuff before anybody recognised you. And in [01:05:20] a sense that’s, you know, when I talk to we talk about garage writing about this a lot. The thing, [01:05:25] you know, where do these people come from? Suddenly out of the blue, they’re. They become really famous for thinking, where’s your hard [01:05:30] rock? Where’s all the hard grind that you and I had to do? I think, yeah, that’s that’s life kind of thing. But [01:05:35] I think that’s that’s kind of, uh, this idea that, um, it’s, you know, I [01:05:40] got the interesting writing and that’s kind of got me where I, where I got to for various reasons, basically [01:05:45] of the English to dentistry and then and then writing for the dental protection. [01:05:50] It’s a.

Speaker3: Brilliant point. It’s a brilliant point. I mean, people forget even Pre-social, I think, [01:05:55] I think FMC had a lot to do with it. Yeah. If you remember [01:06:00] pre FMC, do you remember pre FMC? I did yeah yeah I was very early but [01:06:05] I mean when FMC that that do you remember it was called independent seminars [01:06:10] or something. Yeah. Yeah that had a big part in in in making people [01:06:15] famous. And then, and then they weaved it into the magazines. Yeah. [01:06:20] But before that you’re quite right. I mean, you had to be a professor or something. [01:06:25] You had to be. You had to really work hard to bring it up and down the country. Well, [01:06:30] it’s interesting, you see.

Speaker1: Funny because I remember I used to write for the probe. Yeah. Um, and [01:06:35] there was, there was it’s called basically it was a called a stringer. Basically, if you wanted to, [01:06:40] uh, if there was a course on, they would send you along to it for free and you’d [01:06:45] write it up in the probe. Okay. And I remember and then Ken Finlayson turned up [01:06:50] and I actually met him in my surgery. He came to meet me and he said, you know, you’re obviously a bit of a writer. [01:06:55] You don’t want to do this. You want to join that. And I remember being on the editorial board of the early, uh, [01:07:00] early magazines for Ken and getting to him quite well. And then obviously he’s [01:07:05] obviously done various other things basically. And, and, and I think that sort of celebrity [01:07:10] you have to celebrity stuff came out of that. And then obviously then social media came along. And you know, [01:07:15] it is interesting that the but people still will remember, you know, Roger [01:07:20] and Kevin Lewis, but the older generation will the younger people never heard of these [01:07:25] people at all. And I could walk into a room now and I’d look around thinking, nobody knows me, um, [01:07:30] I don’t know them. And whereas whereas an older generation would know me, would [01:07:35] know Raj, would know Kevin, etc., etc. so it is, it’s it’s a it’s a different world. Definitely a different world. [01:07:40]

Speaker3: The third guest.

Speaker1: Third guest, um, guy called Martin [01:07:45] Seligman. Uh, Martin Seligman is a an American psychologist. [01:07:50] Um, he was he was at Princeton. Uh, and he’s a University of Pennsylvania. His book [01:07:55] is called Authentic Happiness and is probably the most influential book I’ve ever read. [01:08:00] Probably, uh, quite a few years ago, about 2002. And I read about 12 years [01:08:05] ago, and it kind of changed my whole whole perspective on what he [01:08:10] described as what’s called positive psychology. And it talked about happiness when people [01:08:15] weren’t talking about happiness. And the whole concept of positive psychology is he he is a psychologist [01:08:20] himself. And he said, why are psychologists spending all their time looking after ill people [01:08:25] when they are trying to make them better? So surely they must know what’s good for people. And [01:08:30] while we spend our time using the the same stories and the same [01:08:35] techniques to get people to be happy. And so he was kind of [01:08:40] use this scientific method to explore happiness in his book. And authentic happiness is just a classic [01:08:45] in terms of the science, the literature behind it and the creating [01:08:50] this meaning and purpose and and the whole concept, pleasure and gratification, I thought. And one of the things [01:08:55] that that stuck in my mind from that book was that happiness is a choice, and [01:09:00] that 50% of your happiness is actually determined by your DNA. It’s from your parents. [01:09:05] Okay, so if your parents were pretty grumpy and pretty miserable, well, you’d like to be pretty grumpy [01:09:10] and miserable yourself. Uh, 10% by circumstance and 40%, uh, is [01:09:15] your internal state of mind basically how you how you perceive things? Uh, that’s um, and how [01:09:20] you manage your, your everyday life. And I thought for me, that was a pretty seminal book in terms [01:09:25] of how I looked at how you’d approach things. And I remember reading it and just [01:09:30] literally, uh, reading it that that one I did read 2 or 3 times, and I remember just quoting [01:09:35] stuff to my kids left, right and centre, bored, rigid, basically. Uh, but yeah, it’s that [01:09:40] that certainly was, uh, I think it’d be a very interesting guest at our party.

Speaker3: Excellent, [01:09:45] excellent. Positive psychology. What’s what’s it called?

Speaker1: It’s [01:09:50] called authentic happiness.

Speaker3: Authentic positive.

Speaker1: Psychology. Yeah. Fields positive psychology. His [01:09:55] book is called Authentic Happiness. Um. Martin Seligman. Yeah. It’s interesting [01:10:00] guy.

Speaker3: And the final question. Yeah. Deathbed question. [01:10:05] On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, [01:10:10] friends and family. By that time, hopefully grandchildren. Great grandchildren. [01:10:15] Yeah. She had to give him three pieces of wisdom, three pieces of advice. What [01:10:20] would they be?

Speaker1: Um, we kind of alluded to this. The first one would be [01:10:25] to say yes, when somebody asks you to do something as part of your job, your career, [01:10:30] you just say yes, because and that’s kind of in answer to your question, why did you get involved [01:10:35] in all those things? Because somebody said, why don’t you join the LDC? Why don’t you join the young dentist committee? [01:10:40] Why don’t you do this? And you’re thinking, yeah, okay, you know, I’ll do that. And, you know, I said yes. And [01:10:45] I was saying yes in my early parts of my career, when lots of people were just getting [01:10:50] their head down and doing a lot of dentistry and being an associate. And I said, so I was working on [01:10:55] local LDC young Dentist committee and then set up the first National Young Dentist [01:11:00] committee, the BDA, and spent literally a year going backwards and forwards, trying to convince, as it was the [01:11:05] board of directors, that the usefulness, as they said, well, we shouldn’t split young dentists up, etc., etc. [01:11:10] and I spent a whole year so I was going backwards and forwards. So that year I probably lost a lot of [01:11:15] income going backwards and forwards to the BDA. And you know, my wife would say, why are you [01:11:20] doing this? You know, less and less than I am. What are you doing? And actually all [01:11:25] those investments and time and effort saying yes will pay dividends in your [01:11:30] profession, your career. So that would be my first bit of advice.

Speaker3: Then say yes. Do you think, though, that it [01:11:35] goes back one one step earlier than that and, [01:11:40] you know, to be asked to do x, y and Z, you have to be a particular [01:11:45] cat.

Speaker1: Um, because. Yeah.

Speaker3: Because I’m being asked to do [01:11:50] x, Y and Z. Do you see. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah I agree, I agree.

Speaker1: Yeah yeah yeah I agree I agree there [01:11:55] is. Yeah there is some of course. Yeah yeah there is some element to that because you’re, [01:12:00] you’re right. Because there are some people that I wouldn’t ask I wouldn’t ask basically. Yeah. Yeah you’re right. Yeah [01:12:05] you’re right. And so if they say yes, I don’t want them to say yes. No I yeah there, [01:12:10] there is that point. That’s why I didn’t take that. Yeah.

Speaker3: What’s the second piece of advice.

Speaker1: Second [01:12:15] piece of advice is again something related to the Leaders who tried to be an expert in something. [01:12:20] Uh, it might be your career. It might be your hobby. It might be a period of of history [01:12:25] literature. If it’s your job and you’re good at it, the money will come. And I [01:12:30] think this, this, this idea of, uh, you know, this, this idea of happiness comes from, you know, you being [01:12:35] fulfilled. And so if you’re enjoying it, you know, be an expert at it. And it happens to be you’re an expert in your [01:12:40] job, great. You’ll enjoy it even more. You get a huge amount of self-fulfilment from it. And [01:12:45] it’s just that, you know, that bit of that carrot is talking about, you’ve got your bit of character that proves [01:12:50] your expert, proves it to yourself and proves it to other people. Um, so my advice, advice already [01:12:55] to my kids is, you know, try and be an expert, get you a bit of paper, nobody can take it away from you. And we’ll [01:13:00] always have that with you. The, the last bit of advice in all of that, despite all [01:13:05] that saying, be humble because you know about your achievements and be kind to others. So [01:13:10] I think it sounds like a bit of a cliche, but but actually and to a certain [01:13:15] extent, my, my disadvantage is, is is not [01:13:20] shouting from the rooftops and being humble, and often it goes against the grain of social media. [01:13:25] It goes against the grain of Instagram when people are shouting from the rooftops about [01:13:30] their wards, about this, that and the other and and finally I, Faraj and I regret and I [01:13:35] were talking about this the other day.

Speaker1: You know what? What do I what do you and what is he and what do I put on your [01:13:40] title slide of your PowerPoint presentation? Do you put landcruisin [01:13:45] all your qualifications? Do you put Rajaratnam, etc., etc.? No, [01:13:50] I don’t and I don’t either. So he says, well, everybody else does. So why aren’t we? I’m thinking [01:13:55] I feel a bit uncomfortable. And he said, well, the point is that unless people know who we [01:14:00] are, unless we tell them who we are, they’re not going to think we’re credible. Okay. So so I thought it was [01:14:05] an interesting, interesting concept where where actually self promotion [01:14:10] is not something I do particularly well or comfortable with. But actually in this [01:14:15] world of social media and Instagram and all the other things, [01:14:20] actually being humble doesn’t necessarily cut it in that sense. So, [01:14:25] so actually it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a double edged sword. But I think people would respect you [01:14:30] more if you are humble and you are you don’t boast about your achievements. Just crack on. [01:14:35] And there’s lots of things about other people I don’t know about because they don’t tell me about it. And then suddenly you discover, you think, oh God, [01:14:40] okay, well that’s amazing. I didn’t know that. Why didn’t you? Why didn’t you tell me that? So, yeah. There. [01:14:45] Is that so? So those are the three bits that I give.

Speaker3: Uh, then [01:14:50] I see you as a bit of a, like a, like a enigma, [01:14:55] right? Because much of what you’ve said has been around [01:15:00] sort of. Or having met you as well. Yeah. Much of much of what you do is around [01:15:05] wanting to know the full story. Right. That 100% has sort of and I would characterise [01:15:10] that as as kind of a black and white kind of person, someone who’d have strong views. [01:15:15] And yet when you talk about things, you talk about them with such nuance [01:15:20] and with with so much humbleness that, you know, humility or humility, [01:15:25] it’s just it’s surprising. It’s surprising, you know, you it’s [01:15:30] a nice thing. It’s a nice thing to see. And it goes to the to the point that, you know, things are [01:15:35] not as simple as one plus one equals two when it comes to human beings. You know, [01:15:40] we’re nuanced. We’ve got lots of different angles about us. It’s [01:15:45] been a fantastic course. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for doing this. It’s been a massive honour to have [01:15:50] you here.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, [01:15:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:16:00] in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:16:05] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker4: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:16:10] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:16:15] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [01:16:20] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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