Speaker1: I don’t feel guilty about leaving the NHS at all. I think that as a system, [00:00:05] the the faster people leave it, the faster it will get restructured because I don’t think it’s a functioning system. [00:00:10] Personally, I think we should just all rebel against it because it doesn’t serve people [00:00:15] at all. It keeps people in ongoing maintenance that’s not [00:00:20] actually adequate for ideal dental health, you know. So I’m in [00:00:25] favour of this whole system being restructured. And I understand that absolutely. People out there who just do [00:00:30] not have the funds to do any better or to do anything else, and my opinion [00:00:35] anyway, is that it should be an urgent care system and it should then be [00:00:40] put into maybe insurance or something like that, which is more realistic, you know, where you get a better standard [00:00:45] of care, because as long as people are not fairly compensated for the hard, hard work they do, [00:00:50] people are always going to find ways to cut corners. And then that person deserves a good standard of care for [00:00:55] what they’re paying is that even though it may not be relatively a lot, but they are still taking what they have, [00:01:00] you know, and giving it to someone and not getting something that actually reflects a good quality [00:01:05] of care.

Speaker2: This [00:01:10] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:01:15] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:01:25] Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Yolanda Fisher [00:01:30] onto the podcast. Yolanda is a dentist in Bristol [00:01:35] who is just a really makes me feel like I want to know more about her. Just just [00:01:40] from just from her profile. Dentists. Do gooder. Bookworm. Businesswoman. Wonderful. [00:01:45] On a mission to thrive, not to survive. Yeah. Um, welcome [00:01:50] onto the pod. Yeah. How are you? You so.

Speaker1: Much. It’s great to be here. [00:01:55]

Speaker3: Um, this pod usually starts with the backstory. Um, where were you [00:02:00] born? What kind of kid were you? All the way to. Why? Why [00:02:05] did you choose dentistry?

Speaker1: My life is a bit convoluted and off the beaten track. [00:02:10] I was born in Cameroon, which is in West Africa. A lot of people are probably very [00:02:15] familiar with Nigeria because there’s lots of Nigerians in the UK. So Cameroon is its more [00:02:20] quiet neighbour. And my family, well, I and [00:02:25] my mother moved over when I was five to London because my mother at the time was studying law at University [00:02:30] College London. So that’s how I ended up in London and she ended up. So that was [00:02:35] actually her. Was it her first graduate degree or her undergraduate? I can’t remember which of the two, but she was ended up [00:02:40] being scouted by the UN and has ever since worked with the UN. And [00:02:45] I stayed in London for early childhood. But with the UN you [00:02:50] have family and non-family posts, so some places where you can take your family with you, some places where you can’t. [00:02:55] And a lot of her early posts were non-family posts. So I lived in London with my aunt, [00:03:00] actually her older sister, while she was in refugee camps and all sorts of things [00:03:05] advocating for refugees. And yes, I was in London for for a few years [00:03:10] until I was about 11.

Speaker3: So your mum was in other countries [00:03:15] for months at a time. And yeah, I see her years at a time. [00:03:20] Yeah. Wow. So how what’s your reflection [00:03:25] on that fact?

Speaker1: Um, I think most people ask me what it’s [00:03:30] like not growing up with my mother in the house. And to be honest, I don’t know any different, so I [00:03:35] can’t I don’t have anything to compare it to. So for me, that was just my standard baseline. [00:03:40] That was my life. So even though she was so far away, she was very present. So it’s not like she would just [00:03:45] went and I she didn’t know what was going on in my life. She still controlled every facet of my life. [00:03:50] You know what schools I went to, what I was doing, whether I went out with this [00:03:55] friend on this night, you know, my aunt would call her all the time, and she had a hand in everything that was [00:04:00] going on in my life, but just not physically present. So I still felt her presence, [00:04:05] but just not physically, I guess. So.

Speaker3: And where was your dad?

Speaker1: It was a different [00:04:10] time with my dad, so by this point my parents were separated, so they divorced when I [00:04:15] before we moved to the UK and my dad was training to be an architect and he his studies took [00:04:20] him to Italy. So he was in Italy at the time and then France. So that’s kind of he stayed on [00:04:25] that Italy France side and my mum ended up in the UK. So [00:04:30] uh, well for a short while.

Speaker3: And were you in the UK for the whole time or did you at all travel [00:04:35] with your mum?

Speaker1: So I was in the UK from five until around 11 or 12, I can’t remember exactly. [00:04:40] And then she got a family post in Kenya and I went to Kenya with her for three years and [00:04:45] that was really fun. I really enjoyed Kenya and when her time there was over, I actually said to her, just leave me here. You [00:04:50] go where you need to go. I’m fine here. I really like the country. It’s such a beautiful country, [00:04:55] beautiful people. I had a great life there and I really. Yeah, I wanted to stay in Kenya, but [00:05:00] obviously she didn’t. She didn’t have any family in Kenya, so she wasn’t comfortable leaving me there. So, [00:05:05] um, she was sent to another non-family post and I went [00:05:10] back to the UK.

Speaker3: Wow. What a what a childhood man. So [00:05:15] then how did. Then street. How did then street come into the equation?

Speaker1: I [00:05:20] had always been good at science. I really enjoyed health care, but I just actually not health care. [00:05:25] I enjoyed the human body and I thought it was fascinating, and my dad was really pushing me to be [00:05:30] a doctor because he thought, you know what? You’ve got the brains, you’ve got the skill, you’ve got the interest. But [00:05:35] I think you have to really look at yourself and look at your personality and what you are passionate. [00:05:40] And I think I felt like being a doctor is a calling. And I just did not have that calling at all. The [00:05:45] amount of work involved for what you get in return, you have to love it. And I [00:05:50] didn’t love it in the slightest bit. I’m not interested in people’s kidneys, their livers. I just don’t want to know, [00:05:55] you know, so I just yeah, I do want to know. So I went to UCL and I did a [00:06:00] degree in biomedical sciences, which obviously is just kind of like a general healthcare degree. And I did the [00:06:05] unaccredited version of the course. So it meant that I could just choose whatever modules I wanted. And I did all sorts of random [00:06:10] things. I did module in Spanish, I did philosophy of the mind, I did neuro neuroanatomy, whatever [00:06:15] I wanted.

Speaker1: At the end of it I thought, actually, dentistry is not bad because here I get [00:06:20] to still be interested in the body, but I can just focus on this one area and not have to deal with [00:06:25] people’s kidneys. That sounds great. And I went and [00:06:30] I spent. So this is when I was still at UCL. So this was my second year and I went to Gower [00:06:35] Street and I found I walked into the first dental practice I could find in Gower Street, asked if I could shadow, and [00:06:40] he was like, yeah, absolutely, really lovely guy, I wish I could remember his name. It was really lovely, man. And [00:06:45] I spent 3 or 4 days shadowing with him and I thought, yeah, this, this looks all right. I think I’ll do this. [00:06:50] And that’s how I got into dentistry. So from then I kind of started to gear [00:06:55] my work experience and my, my final year module. So I did bone physiology and my final [00:07:00] year to kind of support my dental applications and things like that. But I didn’t get in the first time round. [00:07:05]

Speaker3: So yeah, tell me about the process. Then tell me about the applications process [00:07:10] and what that meant to you.

Speaker1: And yeah, it was interesting. I um, because [00:07:15] of my weird upbringing and going back and forth in UK, I still [00:07:20] wasn’t a British citizen, so I was applying as an international student, even though I’d pretty much been [00:07:25] predominantly of my like the larger majority of my life in the UK. So they have specific [00:07:30] number of slots that they allocate international students versus home students, and then they also [00:07:35] assess whether or not they could. They think you can pay the fees. So some of [00:07:40] the universities just rejected me saying that they didn’t think I could pay the international fees, and [00:07:45] which was completely unfair because actually the UN fund a large portion of our [00:07:50] tuition. So that was quite unfair. But regardless, I thought, [00:07:55] never mind, this is not going to break me down. I took a short course in dental nursing, and in my gap year I [00:08:00] worked as a dental nurse for 6 or 7 months.

Speaker3: Wow.

Speaker1: To get like further insight into the [00:08:05] career. So yeah, six seven months I went to the dental nurse. So this was before you had to be registered or anything. I [00:08:10] literally did a two weeks course and I was straight into surgery. Um, and, and that gave me real [00:08:15] insight into like this was the old UDA contract and just the way it just. No sorry, this [00:08:20] is pre UDA because when I was doing my interviews, the UDA contract had just been released [00:08:25] like the draft of it. And I remember thinking, oh, I need to read this whole contract for my interview. And uh, [00:08:30] yeah, it was an interesting time, but I feel like it gave me real insight into what I was getting myself into and [00:08:35] kind of the conditions that people were working in because I was doing. I was working in Hackney [00:08:40] in the like, real belt of NHS work, you know, one in, one out, bash out [00:08:45] as many amalgams as you can in one hour and move them along, you know, so I [00:08:50] feel like I got a real reality. And to be fair, what I saw there [00:08:55] was what more what I was expecting compared to what I actually got when I [00:09:00] graduated. So I was actually a bit of a shock to me to go the other way. Yeah. And what I [00:09:05] experienced in London was not at all what it was like for me graduating, which [00:09:10] was an interesting difference, really.

Speaker3: So did you have more empathy [00:09:15] for the nurse’s role now? Oh yeah.

Speaker1: Absolutely. It’s really what’s the [00:09:20] word? It’s really they don’t get enough praise. Yeah. It’s really hard work [00:09:25] you know, because there’s a lot you don’t know but you’re expected just to understand. Well [00:09:30] maybe that was my perspective because I had done a short course. Yeah. Um, and I picked up quite a lot, but [00:09:35] there’s a lot of pressure and time and you can really make or break the dentist. Absolutely. [00:09:40] How how you work and also the relationship with the dentist is really important. [00:09:45] Unfortunately, the dentist I work for wasn’t the kindest, and he used to call me stupid in front of patients and [00:09:50] throw things at me. Yeah, just really horrendous man. I’ve always made it a point [00:09:55] to be just really patient and kind and kind of understanding with people because you don’t know what they’re coming with. And [00:10:00] I understand that. Obviously you want to do your best for your patient as a dentist, but also they are doing their [00:10:05] best. If they’re not meeting your standard, it’s not because for the large majority, it’s not because they’re not [00:10:10] doing their best. And you just need to have patience with people. So yeah it was horrendous man. [00:10:15] But you know made it out the other side.

Speaker3: It’s that sort of hierarchy. Key situation [00:10:20] that exists in dental practices generally. Right? You know, you’ve got the principal right at [00:10:25] the top of the tree and then it’s a nurse, isn’t it? It’s a junior nurse who’s at the bottom [00:10:30] of that tree and, and that sort of abuse that you’re talking about. [00:10:35] You can you can imagine even if it’s not verbal, there’s so much [00:10:40] of it, so much of it’s a mental abuse. Yeah. That I [00:10:45] think it’s human nature. Right. When one, when one person’s in charge of another, they can do that. [00:10:50] It’s a risk of it. But are you now so, so aware of that, that you’re, you’re [00:10:55] giving your, your team the best life possible? Like give me give me some more insight about it. Um. [00:11:00]

Speaker1: I try to be as patient as I can, and I [00:11:05] feel like I think most nurses say that they like to work with me just because I, like I said, because [00:11:10] I’ve been on the other side. I know what it’s like, for example, for a locum nurse coming into scenario and you just [00:11:15] don’t know what this person’s going to be like if you do one thing wrong, whether or not they’re just going [00:11:20] to have an absolute go at you if you hand them the wrong bond or something that you [00:11:25] have no chance of knowing. So I try to take my time and teach people things, [00:11:30] and that’s the other thing making them feel comfortable to ask questions. And yeah, ask [00:11:35] me what’s going on. Ask me what you’re doing. What would you like, Lex? Because there’s a lot of I hear a lot of nurses say that they [00:11:40] they they have a lot of dentists who won’t let them speak, essentially, you know, like they [00:11:45] are there just to service their needs. But they’re not actually people, you know, and I think, as [00:11:50] you said, with the hierarchy, it’s so easy to forget that these are people and they are here as well [00:11:55] for them, like I said, doing their best and coming to work to do their best. And if [00:12:00] you treat them with respect, they give you the same respect back. Really, they’re not your lackeys.

Speaker3: Essentially, [00:12:05] I noticed you wrote a piece on mental health in dentistry. Yeah. [00:12:10] About what? Was it, a year and a half ago or something? Yeah. And, you know, we’re [00:12:15] doing this mental health podcast as well about stress and all that and, you know, try and figure out what is it about [00:12:20] dentistry that causes so much stress. You know, why dentistry. Why not? You know, [00:12:25] um, brain surgeons, um, you know why. You know, okay. It’s [00:12:30] a it’s a pressure job. But I think part of that is to do with [00:12:35] the one room you, you and the nurse. Um, and [00:12:40] and of course, there’s many other things. There’s the live patient. Yeah. That, you know, I’ve [00:12:45] got a cousin who’s an eye surgeon, and he says the operations he does on local just [00:12:50] tire him out three times as much as the ones he does in general because of because of [00:12:55] the live patient, you know.

Speaker1: Yeah, the intensity of it.

Speaker3: The intensity. But but also [00:13:00] let’s imagine, you know, we know when, when, when things go wrong mental health wise, [00:13:05] it tends to be like concentric circles, like perfect storm of things going wrong. [00:13:10] And we see it in dentistry as well, don’t we. Like patient doesn’t quite open his mouth. [00:13:15] He’s nervous. Maybe you’ve got the wrong, wrong material [00:13:20] that day. Maybe it’s a locum nurse and the things come together for this perfect [00:13:25] storm. Um, but as far as mental health, perfect storm goes, you know, the relationship [00:13:30] between you and your nurse is massive.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: And, yeah, it’s so huge. [00:13:35] And for now, we’ve been talking about these tyrant dentists. But it doesn’t even have [00:13:40] to be that. It could be. You know, just the quality of that relationship can set, you [00:13:45] know, the rest of your life in or out of sync completely.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:13:50] I’ve had unfortunately, a scenario where I haven’t gotten on with a nurse, which I thought, you [00:13:55] know, I thought it would never happen to me. And I was like, you know, I’m always going to be on the nurses side. It’s not [00:14:00] going to happen to me. Yeah, but it happened to me. And for me, it was more the fact that, um, [00:14:05] we didn’t have the same work ethic, you know, and not to say that I’m [00:14:10] the hardest working person in the world, there’s definitely more hard, but I feel like if you go here, you’ve got a job to do and [00:14:15] you need to do it, you know, and when somebody isn’t meeting me there, and I have been [00:14:20] patient and I have, you know, explained things and I have, you know, been like, you know, let me [00:14:25] show you how to do this. Let me help you improve. But they just have no desire to improve. And [00:14:30] as a consequence of them having no desire to improve my life is terrible. Yeah, I found that challenging. [00:14:35] And I think that was the most difficult relationship I’ve had with a dental nurse. [00:14:40] And that really made work a really uncomfortable environment [00:14:45] for me because like I said, I guess you almost get an image of yourself. I try to present [00:14:50] myself as the one who’s always good with nurses and who always kind of like is on is [00:14:55] for them, you know, and encouraging them and being like, you can do this, you can do whatever you want. And, [00:15:00] um, that one took a peg off my self image, I guess. [00:15:05] But to just made the whole working relationship really frosty. Yeah. [00:15:10] And uncomfortable when you don’t get along with them because it really does make or break your day. How you because it’s someone [00:15:15] you’re sat in a room with all day long.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker1: And and. And it kind [00:15:20] of wears you down mentally and emotionally. Absolutely.

Speaker3: I think it’s something that’s not talked enough about [00:15:25] enough. You know, I don’t I don’t remember any any teaching on it at all. I mean, no, [00:15:30] um, I studied in Cardiff. We had this thing, um, it [00:15:35] was it was like a close support nursing kind of four handed, four handed dentistry thing. Oh, [00:15:40] yeah. Um, but again, it had nothing to do with the, you know, the relationship between [00:15:45] you and you and the nurse and I, but I went to my job, my first job, [00:15:50] and I’d only done four handed dentistry for maybe three years before [00:15:55] because it turned out we were friends with the nurses who were taking care of that bit of the clinic. Yeah. And, um, so [00:16:00] I just sat down in my job and I just put my hands out, as you do with [00:16:05] four handed. And she just looked at me. She just she just looked at me. She said, what are you doing? [00:16:10] Yeah. Like, what’s this mean? Yeah. And I was like, you know, there’s a patient here. I was I was like looking [00:16:15] at her like as if give me the instruments. Right. You know, like that mirror and probe. That’s what that meant, right. Mirror and probe. [00:16:20] Yeah. And the patient left, and I said to her, well, what’s going on? How come you put the instruments [00:16:25] on this side? They should be on that side and bloody up my mic. And she got up. This [00:16:30] was the first nurse, first patient of it. She got up, she went to the boss and she quit her [00:16:35] job there and they’re no. Yeah. And and it turned out [00:16:40] like obviously the boss wasn’t happy. He came over to me. He said, what the hell did you do like for spaceship. [00:16:45] Yeah. But it turned out there was a history. You know, there was there was a history. And then she [00:16:50] came back and all that. He was sure.

Speaker1: That broke the camel’s back.

Speaker3: Yeah, [00:16:55] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing I’m interested in, the question I want to ask you, you said your PSC, you did all these cool [00:17:00] subjects like psychology or philosophy or whatever. I didn’t quite remember. But what did they give [00:17:05] you? Did did they give you something that the rest of us didn’t get that they would have [00:17:10] right?

Speaker1: To be honest, I don’t particularly believe so. No, I was just no, [00:17:15] I to be honest, I don’t particularly believe so because I did philosophy of the mind, which [00:17:20] is a lot of Rene Descartes. I think therefore I am type thing, and I can’t [00:17:25] think of a single instance where that has benefited me since, if [00:17:30] I’m completely honest. It’s funny you should say that.

Speaker3: It’s funny you say that because my previous guest [00:17:35] on this pod, it hasn’t come out yet. But Chris Tavares, he he based on [00:17:40] Descartes, he he stopped practising dentistry. Oh, really? And [00:17:45] for six years he went. He became like a Jesuit monk. Wow. [00:17:50]

Speaker1: So we had completely lost track of this whole thing.

Speaker3: He got [00:17:55] more out of it than you.

Speaker1: I got nothing from it at all. Like, [00:18:00] sorry, Descartes was not. Yeah, it was not for me. I think a lot of it. I found it, [00:18:05] too. Mind bending.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: And too many.

Speaker3: Words.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:18:10] And I didn’t get this. I know a lot of. I remember when I started the course, they said half of you [00:18:15] will start this and think you know who you are. And by the end of it you’ll have no idea. And [00:18:20] I just remember leaving thinking, I have no idea what I’ve learned this whole time. And [00:18:25] the it was. But it was an interesting reading list. And, you know, I can [00:18:30] say that I learn about these interesting philosophers, but I haven’t thought about them since. [00:18:35] So the one I really did particularly enjoy was space medicine and extreme environment [00:18:40] physiology. Wow. Which was really good. And they get lectures from NASA [00:18:45] to come over. So it’s the only course in the UK that’s doing this. So they receive students [00:18:50] from other universities just to come and do this course at UCL. And that was really [00:18:55] interesting.

Speaker3: So so was that was there space dentistry as well?

Speaker1: Space toothbrushing there [00:19:00] wasn’t space dentistry actually, but I liked the bone physiology element of it because we [00:19:05] learned about what happened to the bone in space and as well as the whole body and not just space, [00:19:10] obviously. Extreme environment. So extreme cold, extreme heat, high altitude, deep sea. And it [00:19:15] was really, really interesting, fascinating, um, module to do. So I think that but that’s more like a party trick for me. [00:19:20] I start pulling out facts. You know, but in terms [00:19:25] of like my career and life, no, I just enjoyed my time at UCL. It’s a lovely university. So. [00:19:30]

Speaker3: So then you eventually got into dental school?

Speaker1: It did? Yes.

Speaker3: At the [00:19:35] Royal London.

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker3: Tell me, what were you like as a dental student?

Speaker1: I [00:19:40] was overwhelmed, if I’m completely honest. We all were.

Speaker3: We all were.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:19:45] I feel like there are people who who took it better than I did. Because undergraduate [00:19:50] for at UCL, it was an absolute walk in the park, [00:19:55] completely compared to dentistry. I think in my second year I had a summer holiday that was about four months [00:20:00] long. Wow. I and I went to America and I remember thinking, because this is when again, my parents were still [00:20:05] working for the UN and at this point they were based in New York. So I went to America for the summer, and I remember thinking, [00:20:10] I’m sure I’ve been here more than I’ve been at university. And, um, so I had really [00:20:15] long holidays. I used to have maybe 810. Hours of lectures a week [00:20:20] and the rest of self-directed study. So I was very self-motivated, but at the same time it was [00:20:25] not intense in the slightest. And coming to dentistry was an absolute shock to my [00:20:30] system. And I was like, what is this? I thought I had done university, I had not done university at all. So [00:20:35] I found that quite overwhelming. And I had quite an active social life [00:20:40] at UCL, but I felt like I was drowning in dentistry, so I just completely just stopped having [00:20:45] social life. I just felt like I had to study, study, study, study and, you know, above [00:20:50] average intelligence. But I’m not the most intelligent. So I just have to work hard essentially to get the [00:20:55] same place as other people do. And yeah, I was just constantly studying, [00:21:00] didn’t have a life. I was really overwhelmed. And I realised now I didn’t really have great study techniques as well because that’s another [00:21:05] thing that’s not really taught. I think study techniques are really important, but I really had nobody, [00:21:10] even though both my parents had gone to university. My dad has got PhD, nobody [00:21:15] taught me study techniques. And I realised and I look back now, I had really terrible study techniques, [00:21:20] just a lot of rote repetition, you know, reading, rewriting that was just not getting me anywhere [00:21:25] and just was based on loads of man hours. So I just yeah, [00:21:30] I spent most of Dental school feeling overwhelmed.

Speaker3: And which which aspect particularly overwhelmed [00:21:35] you? Was it the preclinical or clinical or both?

Speaker1: I think a bit of both, because [00:21:40] if you’re either reading a book or you’re doing it practically. So it’s not like a lot of other [00:21:45] courses where you can just learn the theory. It’s just like you have to do the theory, but you actually have to physically do it as [00:21:50] well. So there’s an added element that a lot of people just don’t grasp unless you have a practical, [00:21:55] unless you do a practical course like dentistry or obviously skills like carpentry and things like that, where you have [00:22:00] to physically do the thing. So it’s very akin to that. But I feel like the intensity [00:22:05] of what we learn on the theory side makes it harder as well, with the [00:22:10] additional high, detailed, physic like physical skill that you need as well.

Speaker3: Yeah. Of [00:22:15] course. And then so you okay. You I mean, I think as a, as [00:22:20] a graduate student, you’re in a way sort of more mature anyway, right? Yeah. You [00:22:25] know, we got into dental school 18 like a total child. Total child. And [00:22:30] um, I remember there were a couple of graduates on my, in my year and they were I felt [00:22:35] like they, they were studying more, more in an adult way as well. I’d never thought they were being [00:22:40] over, over, over. Maybe they were. Yeah. But okay. So so out [00:22:45] of dental school, how clear were you about what kind of dentist you wanted to be?

Speaker1: And because [00:22:50] of my experience working as a dental nurse, I thought I would just be an NHS dentist. I’m [00:22:55] very much, as I said on my profile, a do gooder. I’m all about doing good for people and [00:23:00] serving people, and I thought I would be the kind of dentist who just goes out there and meets [00:23:05] the needs of the people. So I just had a vision of working on the NHS for the entirety of my career. [00:23:10] But the difference of working is it dental nurse versus [00:23:15] when I actually started working, is that they just don’t actually meet up with. [00:23:20] The reality of serving the people well, is what I found in my experience of NHS dentistry. [00:23:25] My first year was obviously and I did that in Southampton and that was fine [00:23:30] because, you know, you don’t really have targets, you don’t really have goals. You’re just trying to like be surefooted [00:23:35] clinically and get comfortable with the environment. But my first year [00:23:40] post vet, I worked for a corporate which I won’t name the name, but it was not [00:23:45] a great experience and they had ridiculous targets, really ridiculous pressures. If I didn’t [00:23:50] do a band three on every child that came through my surgery, I got called in to the clinical, [00:23:55] the area manager’s office. Wow. They were giving me daily targets to refer [00:24:00] to the hygienist privately in a very NHS area. And I just thought, I [00:24:05] can’t force these people. They don’t have the money to do that, you know, and they’re entitled to this treatment on the NHS. [00:24:10] So this is not something I’m comfortable doing. So I was there to just meet the needs and I was put given [00:24:15] all these targets and expectations, which I thought were unethical. And I found it, I [00:24:20] found I really struggled there.

Speaker3: What year was that?

Speaker1: That was in 2012. [00:24:25]

Speaker3: Yeah. I think, you know, the corporates back then [00:24:30] were really clueless.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: A very different now by the way, [00:24:35] very different. Now, I know I come across people who on purpose leave independent [00:24:40] practices and go to corporates, okay. Because they know what they’re going to get. You know, at [00:24:45] least with the corporate, you know, what you’re going to get. You can you can talk to other other people [00:24:50] in the corporate. And the other thing they’ve realised is losing a dentist is the most expensive thing that can happen [00:24:55] to a dental practice. And, you know, in the end, their businesses. It’s surprising [00:25:00] because I’ve heard so many terrible stories about corporates from back [00:25:05] in that time, you know, um, go on. What happened next?

Speaker1: So [00:25:10] I did that for just under a year. So I was the dentist who stayed the longest, as you said, [00:25:15] can’t keep losing dentists for a practice is very expensive. And I didn’t read the contract thoroughly, and I actually had [00:25:20] a leaving clause in there. If I left in less than a year, they took a few thousand from me, and [00:25:25] that’s exactly what they did. But at that point I was just beyond done. So I just thought, [00:25:30] take the money, I’m going to go. So I worked, moved on to an independent mixed practice, and [00:25:35] I was there for, you know, in Portsmouth. So I’d stayed in the area where I did my best. So [00:25:40] I worked there for a few years and yeah, I was that was fine. That was more what I was expecting. [00:25:45] I was there to just to meet the need and, you know, serve the people. And yeah, I had a good time [00:25:50] there and I really grew clinically. I think I left that role in the end just because I didn’t want to [00:25:55] be in Portsmouth anymore. And I wanted to move back to London.

Speaker1: Yeah. So eventually I moved back to London. [00:26:00] I worked in a lovely practice just outside of London, but then I found myself quite isolated because [00:26:05] by that point a lot of my friends had moved out of London. A lot of my family had moved out of London. So [00:26:10] I just thought, I don’t know what I’m doing here. And London is such a big city. It’s very hard to feel lonely. It’s very easy. [00:26:15] Sorry to to to get lonely there. And I my, like I said, because my family is so international. [00:26:20] My brothers had emigrated to America, my cousin emigrated to America. Everyone’s just all over the place. [00:26:25] So I felt quite isolated. So I decided to leave London again. And this time I went to Leeds because [00:26:30] I had a good one of my best friends from um, university, from my first degree actually, [00:26:35] who also ended up being a dentist. I convinced her to do dentistry. I told her that she’s away and [00:26:40] she ended up being a dentist, and her boyfriend ended up being a dentist as well.

Speaker4: How funny.

Speaker1: So [00:26:45] she said, Come to Leeds. It’s, you know, the pastures are green here. And so I [00:26:50] went to Leeds and I. And just as I went to Leeds, I started dating my husband [00:26:55] who I’d met in Portsmouth.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker1: So the timing was terrible. So we did the long [00:27:00] distance thing for a year and a bit and we thought, actually, this is not great long [00:27:05] terme. So I decided to move back to Portsmouth just because I already had friends there. He’d been there for a long time, [00:27:10] so I found myself back in Portsmouth.

Speaker3: So you didn’t actually go to Leeds?

Speaker1: I did, so I lived [00:27:15] in Leeds for a year and we did long.

Speaker4: Distance for one year.

Speaker1: And then yeah, he toyed with moving to [00:27:20] Leeds, but it made more sense for me to move back to Portsmouth because I already had a life there as well.

Speaker3: Is he a dentist [00:27:25] too?

Speaker1: He’s not. No, he is a recruitment consultant. And does property investing.

Speaker4: Okay okay [00:27:30] okay.

Speaker1: So then so then I ended up back in Portsmouth. I [00:27:35] worked went back to the the previous NHS practice that I was at. So we had a really good relationship. [00:27:40] I told him I was coming back and he said please come back. So I said okay and I went [00:27:45] back to that job. At the same time, I also decided to apply for a private job. So I started my first [00:27:50] private role part time and the loveliest little practice in Portsmouth. And [00:27:55] um, that was a really interesting position because six months after joining, the principal actually had a stroke, unfortunately. [00:28:00] Well, and it was run, it was, uh, just a two surgery practice. The principal, [00:28:05] his wife was the practice manager and an associate, and he had a stroke. So it became [00:28:10] completely associate led for about two years. So it was predominantly me. And then they hired another [00:28:15] associate just to help them keep it going until they sold it. Unfortunately, he couldn’t go back to work, [00:28:20] so but I had a yeah, a really nice relationship with them and they were really lovely team and [00:28:25] practice to work in.

Speaker3: So this thing you were saying about working in the NHS and [00:28:30] the judging part of that, by this time you’ve gotten over that notion.

Speaker1: I [00:28:35] had I still wanted to do good, but I realised I couldn’t do the good I wanted to do on the NHS. Unfortunately, [00:28:40] because your hands are tied in many aspects and [00:28:45] I didn’t want my hands to be tied, I wanted to offer the people what I thought was [00:28:50] the best and what I thought would be in their best interest, and not be worried about [00:28:55] limitations that the NHS puts on you essentially.

Speaker4: I mean.

Speaker3: Look, this question comes [00:29:00] up. We we had an episode on here called leaving the NHS and it was [00:29:05] the third most listened to episode. Oh really that we’ve done and [00:29:10] we’ve done, you know, 220 episodes. Right. Wow. And it wasn’t [00:29:15] you know, it’s not like the information in it was so amazing that people were passing it to each other. I don’t [00:29:20] think it’s just like it’s just such a hot topic. Right. Leaving the area and, and and you know, what [00:29:25] stops you from leaving the NHS and what you should think of this question that you’re bringing up, sort of the guilt [00:29:30] of leaving the NHS sort of thing. And am I doing good or [00:29:35] not? I think we need a sort of a frank conversation about that. What you just [00:29:40] said about, you know, you want to do good in the correct way without a third party [00:29:45] telling you what to do. Or, you know, I fully understand that. But I think also we [00:29:50] need to be clear that, you know, rich man’s toothache is just as painful [00:29:55] as a poor man’s toothache. Yeah. And then and then you can say, well, okay, [00:30:00] but the rich man’s got resources. He’ll find someone. I want to be there. I want to be there for the poor man. [00:30:05] Okay, good. You want to be there for the poor man? Go do your mum’s work. Yeah. [00:30:10] You know, your poorest patient is probably still in the top 2% of the world’s [00:30:15] sort of, you know.

Speaker4: Chloe. Yeah.

Speaker3: So, you know, I [00:30:20] think there’s a lot of sort of fooling ourselves about this question of, you know, [00:30:25] I don’t think we need to worry ourselves too much with guilt of leaving the NHS. [00:30:30] You know, you want to be the best dentist you can be for the community that you can serve, whoever [00:30:35] that community is. That community could be a 100 billionaires or it could be [00:30:40] whatever you. Everyone needs a dentist.

Speaker4: Yeah, [00:30:45] I don’t have.

Speaker1: I don’t feel guilty about leaving the NHS at all. I think that as [00:30:50] a system, the the faster people leave it, the faster it will get restructured. Because I [00:30:55] don’t think it’s a functioning system. Personally, I think we should just all rebel against it because [00:31:00] it doesn’t serve people at all. It keeps people in ongoing [00:31:05] maintenance that’s not actually adequate for ideal dental health, you know. So [00:31:10] I’m in favour of this whole system being restructured. And I understand that absolutely. [00:31:15] People out there who just do not have the funds to do any better.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Or to do anything else. [00:31:20] And my opinion anyway, is that it should be an urgent care system and it should [00:31:25] then be put into maybe insurance or something like that, which is more realistic, you know, [00:31:30] where you get a better standard of care, because as long as people are not fairly compensated for the [00:31:35] hard, hard work they do, people are always going to find ways to cut corners. And then that person deserves [00:31:40] a good standard of care for what they’re paying is that even though it may not be relatively a lot, but they are still [00:31:45] taking what they have, you know, and giving it to someone and not getting something that actually reflects [00:31:50] a good quality of care.

Speaker4: Mm hmm.

Speaker1: So I think [00:31:55] that, yeah, the whole system needs to be just broken down and redone, and I [00:32:00] feel like the faster people leave it and rebel against it, the faster it would happen. How long has the talk have been [00:32:05] about, you know, redoing the contract? Is it still even been talked about? I don’t know. I stopped [00:32:10] listening.

Speaker3: But you’re right, because the funny thing, when I was a vet in 1996, [00:32:15] my my boss, my boss was talking about let’s go [00:32:20] private first so that when the whole thing falls apart, we’re already private. And [00:32:25] you know, we can be the best private practice. And, you know, we we take it for granted that it would have fallen apart back [00:32:30] then, back then. And the conversations are still going on.

Speaker4: You’re going. Yeah. [00:32:35]

Speaker3: It’s mad. It’s mad. So. Okay, so. But you now live in Bristol. So how [00:32:40] did the story go from Portsmouth to Bristol?

Speaker1: So we lived in Portsmouth for a while. We got married, [00:32:45] we got pregnant and then the pandemic hit.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker1: And um, even [00:32:50] though we had both spent some time in Portsmouth and had built a life there, we didn’t have any family [00:32:55] there. And with a young child you realise that actually family is valuable, especially when you’re [00:33:00] hit with such a life changing thing. When you’re isolated and you become [00:33:05] more aware of the value of family and relationships and things like that. And because my family is so [00:33:10] widely dispersed, we leant towards going to where his family is. And he has a [00:33:15] sister in Bristol who has children the same age. So we thought that would be nice. And I grew [00:33:20] up in London with my cousins for a lot of my childhood, and I thought, it’s really nice to have cousins, and they [00:33:25] liked my siblings, so I thought I’d really like my children to grow up with their cousins and have them feel [00:33:30] like they’re siblings. So that’s how we ended up in Bristol. So we followed my sister in law. So she lives here. She’s a nurse [00:33:35] in the NHS. Good for her. And she’s, you know, fighting the good fight and the nursing side and [00:33:40] um, yeah. So her two children are similar ages so. Well, one [00:33:45] slightly older and her second is the same age as my first. So.

Speaker3: So you were actually pregnant during [00:33:50] Covid?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: So I gave birth. So I was due to [00:33:55] have my baby shower the day that the stay at home orders were given and [00:34:00] I went on maternity leave a month early. So I was meant to start my maternity leave in April, [00:34:05] and I had to start in March. Um, because of. Yeah, because I was so far along [00:34:10] and they just thought, actually, it’s better if you just go home. So that’s what I did. And it’s really funny because my dad is a big [00:34:15] conspiracy theorist. And since from like.

Speaker4: December, take the.

Speaker3: Vaccine and you couldn’t [00:34:20] know.

Speaker1: From December 2019, he was telling me to stay at home.

Speaker4: Oh, really?

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:34:25] And because he’s such a conspiracy theorist, he’s always coming up with something. I just thought, no, no, no, dad, this is another [00:34:30] one of yours. And consistently from December, he’s like, no, you’re pregnant. You’re in a really high risk career. [00:34:35] You need to stay at home, stay at home, stay at home. Every week he would call me and say, you need to go home. And then in [00:34:40] March, I was like, oh yeah, you’re right, I need to go home. So he felt quite vindicated. But of [00:34:45] course he didn’t take the vaccine.

Speaker4: So did you. You. I did yeah.

Speaker3: I thought I thought pregnant women couldn’t [00:34:50] take it. No.

Speaker1: After I had the baby.

Speaker3: Aha. Yeah. So he actually turned out to be [00:34:55] right about the vaccine.

Speaker4: Anyway, [00:35:00] don’t tell him this.

Speaker3: It’s funny. Conspiracy theory is a [00:35:05] funny thing. Yeah, because you’ll find if you come from unstable places where real conspiracies happen. [00:35:10] Yeah. Then then you realise that. That you know what? What can [00:35:15] go down due to conspiracy and. You know, I’m not sure exactly about Cameroon, but [00:35:20] but West Africa in general, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of, uh, you know, conspiracies, [00:35:25] right.

Speaker4: There are there’s a lot going on.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: What happens is you, [00:35:30] you if you really look into it, there are conspiracies here too. They’re just much more. They’re just [00:35:35] much more sort of ingrained in the system. They’re much more difficult to unravel. It’s not [00:35:40] like one guy taking one amount, putting, you know, state funds straight into his bank account [00:35:45] a bit more. It’s a bit more complicated than that.

Speaker4: Yeah, but.

Speaker1: The Cayman Islands first. [00:35:50] Yeah.

Speaker3: Exactly, exactly. So all right, so you [00:35:55] became you went to Bristol, you found a job. What kind of job?

Speaker1: Yeah. So I’m in a private practice. I [00:36:00] actually worked just outside Bristol. I work in street, so it’s about an hour commute. So I [00:36:05] it’s a two hour round trip, which is not too bad. I work part time so it’s two and a half days, so I find [00:36:10] it manageable. Although my principal, he lives not too far from me and he does it every day, so [00:36:15] it’s doable. And yeah, it’s a really lovely family practice. I think he’s owned [00:36:20] it for 15 years or so around that period. And it’s [00:36:25] yeah, completely private and really nice. We’ve got a small NHS contract and [00:36:30] see plan patients as well.

Speaker3: I, I talk to mothers [00:36:35] on this pod who are dentists and when they’re talking about their lives [00:36:40] and their days, it’s the thing that they call sort of me time [00:36:45] is, is like, I don’t know, it’s like sorting out the kids calendar or [00:36:50] something on the tube or anything. The juggle, the juggle, man, [00:36:55] the juggle. Tell me about the juggle. Because because it must be a big juggle. How many days a week are you a dentist?

Speaker1: So [00:37:00] I’m a dentist. Two and a half days and I’m always on a course. So yeah. [00:37:05] Um, I’m currently doing the Simply Endo ten day course, um, [00:37:10] aiming to do the PG cert and hopefully through to MSC. Last [00:37:15] year I did the cath tactics. Um, and [00:37:20] also I haven’t finished that because I was actually pregnant while I was doing that, and I had to leave towards [00:37:25] the end to have my baby. So I need to I still, I need to hand in the cases and finish that one. [00:37:30] But yeah, the juggle is. Depending on the support. So [00:37:35] I can completely say that I could not do this unless my husband was as supportive [00:37:40] as he is. And I’m very fortunate in that he’s very supportive. It helps that he works from home, so [00:37:45] he’s the one who does the nursery jobs. Most of the nursery drop offs, pick ups, if [00:37:50] they get sick, he’s the one who goes in, you know? So a lot of things like that falls to [00:37:55] him, especially since I’m so far away when I am at work and he is at home. So a lot [00:38:00] falls to him and I’m really lucky for his support. And in all of that, even tonight, [00:38:05] he was the one who was mainly putting the kids to bed so that I could get ready for this. So I [00:38:10] think the juggle is made easier or harder by the support system that you have around you. Really. [00:38:15] Um.

Speaker3: But, but, but you know, we I’ve been talking to several people like this. What gives? [00:38:20] Because, you know, work often doesn’t give. You end up, you [00:38:25] end up. It’s not it’s not like you can you’re gonna suddenly call up on a Wednesday morning and say, I’m not coming in for my [00:38:30] patients. That’s just not going to happen.

Speaker4: No.

Speaker3: And and I look, obviously I don’t know you [00:38:35] very well. I know you from your sort of persona, online persona. Right. But you seem to be [00:38:40] sort of on this journey of sort of self-improvement, um, reading [00:38:45] sports, you know, looks, looks like, looks like you’re [00:38:50] taking care of that sort of side of things as well. Can you have it all in, in dentistry [00:38:55] as a woman mother?

Speaker1: I think you can have it all, but not at the same time.

Speaker4: Good. [00:39:00]

Speaker1: That’s absolute reality. So it’s really interesting. You say you look at my persona and it looks like [00:39:05] I’ve got it kind of like I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’m not doing them all at the same time. And that’s the absolute [00:39:10] reality. So last year, like I said, I had a baby. She’s now nine months and [00:39:15] last year was what I call survival mode. And as much [00:39:20] as I was, I was very silly to do that pgcert while I was pregnant because I was actually exhausted. [00:39:25] Half of it went in and out of my ear because I was too tired. And [00:39:30] you know that always there’s not everything that you can do at once. So [00:39:35] at that time, I was focussed on focusing on, you know, having a healthy pregnancy whilst [00:39:40] trying to maintain my career. But things that let up, for example, was home organisation, [00:39:45] like I just did not have the time or energy to declutter and sort my [00:39:50] children’s toys out or you know, even book them loads of activities and [00:39:55] deal with meals. So I I’m not ashamed to say I don’t like cooking, so I order meals [00:40:00] in for them, like freshly cooked meals, and I just put them in the freezer and that’s what they eat, because I’m just not [00:40:05] the mum who’s going to be at home cooking home cooked meals. That’s just not realistic for my life. When I come home from work [00:40:10] and I start to study.

Speaker1: So something you just have to choose [00:40:15] what it is you’re going to focus your energy on. And for me, as long as I had some quality time with [00:40:20] my children, some quality time with my husband, and was able to [00:40:25] move forward in one of my goals, then that was enough for me. So most of my time, that [00:40:30] one goal that I’m always trying to move forward in is dentistry because there’s always so much to learn. But yeah, things always [00:40:35] give. Like last year, it was definitely self-care and this year I’m trying to have more self-care. I’m trying to [00:40:40] look more at how I eat and how I move my body. Because I started to have aches and pains. [00:40:45] I’m ageing, my knee gives in sometimes and you know, things like that. I need [00:40:50] to start taking care of my body and start exercising and stretching, starting going for massages and things like that. [00:40:55] So I think women can absolutely do everything, but you’ve got to choose what you want [00:41:00] to do, when and what and prioritise according to the time and time scale. Essentially, [00:41:05] I think that’s the most important thing is choosing appropriately and [00:41:10] thinking about timescales, really. And I think back now, there’s so many things that I wish I’d done different [00:41:15] way around. But, you know, hindsight is a great gift.

Speaker3: Like what? Like what? Like what?

Speaker1: I [00:41:20] think I wish I’d focussed more on my studies before I had children. So because I spent [00:41:25] so much time in my BSc, then dentistry when I graduated, [00:41:30] I just spent a lot of time just working and not really thinking where I wanted to go with my career. I [00:41:35] was just working, and actually that would have been the prime time to focus and get my career [00:41:40] where I wanted to be and then have a family. But now I just spent all those years just kind [00:41:45] of like floating about in dentistry, not really knowing where I wanted to go with it. And that’s like I said, partly that’s because I [00:41:50] just thought I’d be churning it out in the NHS for the foreseeable future. And then I realised, actually, this is [00:41:55] not fulfilling for me. It’s not what I want to do. I want to maybe achieve X, Y and Z and [00:42:00] now I’m saddled, not saddled. But now I have the extra responsibilities of two children [00:42:05] and a marriage to maintain and ageing happening to me very slowly. And [00:42:10] it’s just harder. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder, you know? So if [00:42:15] anything, I wish I had done all those things before I had all these additional responsibilities. But, you know, you don’t know what you [00:42:20] don’t know. I didn’t know that this is how I’d feel at this point in my career.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. Especially as, [00:42:25] you know, um, the reason why you want the education is because the other situation wasn’t fulfilling, [00:42:30] and you wouldn’t have known that until you got to that point.

Speaker4: That’s true. Yeah.

Speaker3: I [00:42:35] think not enough people tell you. Maybe it was just me. I know, but the second kid [00:42:40] really messed this stuff up at home.

Speaker4: It really does.

Speaker3: Because you think you’ve had a kid. You’ve had [00:42:45] one kid. You know what kid is? Yeah, yeah, but no one really tells you that. The first kid [00:42:50] kind of. It almost becomes a plus one on the couple. Kind of the couple continue doing [00:42:55] this stuff they used to do. But there’s a kid. Yeah, but the second kid sort of completely [00:43:00] throws that in the air, I find. Really?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: It was just a really [00:43:05] hard adjustment for both of us, really. Probably my husband [00:43:10] more than me because he said, I think a couple times he said it. I guess it’s too late to not do this, isn’t it? [00:43:15]

Speaker4: Funny.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:43:20] We’re here now. Uh, I think we’ve just just moving past that point where it’s absolute [00:43:25] torture to kind of like finding our feet, but it’s still just grinding, [00:43:30] like it really is grinding. And there’s absolutely some people who have the gift of, like, dealing with [00:43:35] multiple children. I am not one of those people. So it’s really hard work for me. [00:43:40]

Speaker4: I think it’s.

Speaker3: Really hard for everyone, though. I think it’s really hard for everyone. It’s it’s not talked about enough, you know, [00:43:45] because look, I see this picture behind you here of you and your son. [00:43:50] Is it. Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: My son.

Speaker3: That’s that’s the image that that that sort [00:43:55] of gets put out about motherhood. It absolutely. Staring, staring into the, [00:44:00] the, the waves or whatever it is holding arm and arm and, um, [00:44:05] the, you know, I think until they figured out how to put their own socks on, you’re in trouble. [00:44:10]

Speaker4: That’s even beyond that. He can put his socks. [00:44:15]

Speaker1: On, but he just.

Speaker4: Won’t stop. Perfect.

Speaker1: It’s an endless [00:44:20] battle. It’s an. And even with, like, with the studying, like I say, I’ll come home from work and I’ll study. And actually, I [00:44:25] find that I find it easier to study on the days that I’ve been at work.

Speaker4: Mhm.

Speaker1: Work is like [00:44:30] restful for me now.

Speaker3: I’ve heard that so many times from others.

Speaker1: It really is on the days that I’m [00:44:35] at home, by the end of the day, I literally have nothing left to study. There’s nothing left. I have [00:44:40] to squeeze all my studying in on the three days that I’m at work, because that’s the only [00:44:45] time when I come home and I feel like I still have some energy because they really just suck it all out of you, [00:44:50] like in the most loving way.

Speaker3: But you know, not everyone who does a course ends up doing all [00:44:55] the reading and all the studying and all that. So. You know, are you are you that person? Are you that [00:45:00] person who’s going to read around the subject 13 times?

Speaker1: I just, like I said, I [00:45:05] just have to work harder than everybody else.

Speaker4: So that’s just my.

Speaker1: Reality and [00:45:10] I’m still improving my study techniques. I’m actually also doing a course on studying, like better studying [00:45:15] because, you know, you can always improve. There’s always better ways to do things. So. [00:45:20] But I think I just like to study I like to learn. My husband’s always saying, this is going to be the last [00:45:25] course you’re going to do. Right? And I’m always like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like six months later I found another one.

Speaker3: So why is that? [00:45:30] Why is that?

Speaker1: I like the knowledge. I think it’s I find interest. And to be fair, [00:45:35] admittedly I think I’m not implementing all of it. So actually one of my 2024 [00:45:40] things is use what I’ve learned because there’s so much, you know, we all go an endless number of courses [00:45:45] and we don’t actually implement a lot of them. So I have all this knowledge, but it’s not being used. [00:45:50] I don’t feel comfortable or confident or, you know, don’t know how to talk about it to [00:45:55] patients. And I just think, actually, I’ve invested all this time and energy and money and hours in the evening [00:46:00] studying. I should actually there are people out there who would appreciate this. I need to go out there and do it. So [00:46:05] but yeah, the moral of the story is I just have to work harder.

Speaker3: And is, is there is there an [00:46:10] element of you want formal studies? I mean, am I studying while I’m listening to a podcast [00:46:15] or that doesn’t count?

Speaker1: No, that does count.

Speaker3: Yeah, that’s I’m studying every night. [00:46:20]

Speaker4: Then there you go. There you go. I’m amazing. Yeah. It’s anything [00:46:25] that is new.

Speaker1: Information is.

Speaker4: Studying. Yeah.

Speaker3: But, you [00:46:30] know, some people are literally course junkies. Some some people are diploma junkie junkies. They [00:46:35] want pieces of paper. Yeah, some people are degree junkies. They want actual, you know, [00:46:40] letters.

Speaker4: Yeah, I.

Speaker1: Was definitely on the degree junkie, but that’s more something that’s [00:46:45] come from my family. My family is very academic. You know, for my dad, the least you could do is a [00:46:50] PhD. So my, my brothers both have masters and he’s pushing them both to [00:46:55] do PhDs. And they’re like, actually, you know, we’re fine with our masters, you know? And um, [00:47:00] when my mom heard I wanted to do, for example, a master’s in endodontics, she’s like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s the thing [00:47:05] to do. So for, for them and it’s the whole African thing, you know, when you have because they were [00:47:10] raised in Africa, they were raised with lack, with, you know, poverty, with seeing people [00:47:15] die for a really simple things just from not having, you know, so for them, [00:47:20] education was a huge door out of all of that. And so education is on a massive [00:47:25] pedestal in our in my family and in my home. So the more letters you have after the [00:47:30] name, the more highly regarded you are in my family basically. So yeah.

Speaker3: I think we can [00:47:35] all sort of sort of relate to the idea of that. But the interesting thing is it’s no longer [00:47:40] education is no longer the one way ticket to success that it used to be. [00:47:45]

Speaker4: Yeah. Absolutely not.

Speaker3: And at the same time, I thought I was kind of immune to all this [00:47:50] by now. And yet when the thing came up in my son, my son’s doing A-levels, [00:47:55] when, when it came up, hey, Oxford and Cambridge. Yeah. And suddenly some part of [00:48:00] me said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’ve got to do that. Yeah. And, and you know, it’s [00:48:05] within, you know, it’s a bit like you think you think you’re not racist until you realise you’re racist about [00:48:10] something. Yeah. Or you think you’re not sexist until you realise you’re sexist. You know, we all have a certain [00:48:15] bit of all of that in us, but it seems it seems like were you doing all this [00:48:20] to, to kind of fit in to the family thing to do you, did [00:48:25] you want to go and say, hey, mom, dad, guess what? I got a extra degree, you know, like, where [00:48:30] does it come from exactly?

Speaker1: It wasn’t fitting in. It was more that this was just the path that [00:48:35] I had been led down. I didn’t even think of anything else. So I remember when I was applying [00:48:40] for university and years and one of my friends said, oh, I don’t even know if I’m going to go to U.S and that [00:48:45] was the first time that idea that you don’t have to go to university genuinely entered my head. Like, [00:48:50] I’m not even kidding. Like the thought that I’m not going to go into university was never [00:48:55] something that I even. Sexualised because it was such. It was made like [00:49:00] this was the norm in our family, you know, do ABC and then this is the next step and then that’s [00:49:05] the next step. So for them it was school, university, preferably a postgraduate degree as well as [00:49:10] a minimum. So anything other than that was just not normal [00:49:15] to me. So it’s not like I was trying to people please. But this was the my this was my normalcy [00:49:20] essentially. And I didn’t know anything outside of it.

Speaker3: And [00:49:25] then so now now looking at looking at your output, there’s an [00:49:30] element of it that is like sort of inspiring others.

Speaker1: I hope to, yes, because I [00:49:35] think social media is something that’s quite. What’s [00:49:40] the word? Um. Oh, what’s the word when polarising. There we go. Yeah. [00:49:45] Social media is something that’s very polarising, and even I myself can get sucked in in [00:49:50] the bad way. And I think about when I was a student and when I was at university, and how I [00:49:55] didn’t have the pressure of social media and comparing yourself to other people. And because that’s something that I feel [00:50:00] I’m particularly susceptible to comparison and looking at what they’re doing and like, [00:50:05] oh, you know, I should be doing that too. And I really wanted to have a space on social [00:50:10] media where I was where it’s kind of like, you know, your current life is a dream. You [00:50:15] know, you what you do doesn’t matter what everyone else is doing, but actually your current life [00:50:20] is amazing compared to such a large percentage of the world. And I think I think [00:50:25] like that just because, like I said, with my parents job, I’ve been fortunate to go to many of these places where people [00:50:30] really do not have anything. And then, you know, the other day I was telling my husband about this.

Speaker1: I had this big revelation [00:50:35] because I have a Range Rover, and I was having issues with it and I was getting really angry with [00:50:40] it, like really angry. I was going back and forth with the dealership and like things were not working. [00:50:45] And then one day I just thought, oh my God, yeah, if this thing never gets fixed fixed, I’m okay [00:50:50] with it. Because here I am being angry that my luxury car is not luxurious enough. You [00:50:55] know, where there’s people out there who literally don’t have food to eat? I was like, what a ridiculous thing to spend so much [00:51:00] energy being angry about. Like, what is my life? You know? And once [00:51:05] you start to get that bit of perspective, you’re like, this is not the thing. Like, it’s okay to be angry, [00:51:10] but this is not the thing to spend your energy being angry about. You know, there’s actually real [00:51:15] issues in the world where you need to spend your your energy being angry about, not because you’re luxury [00:51:20] car is not being working the way you want it to, you know. And I just thought I realised [00:51:25] how ridiculous I was being in that moment.

Speaker4: And where did it come from?

Speaker3: This, this, this question [00:51:30] of sort of inspiring others and, you know, like teaching other people how to [00:51:35] live sort of thing, how to how to improve themselves. But I don’t understand where that thread started [00:51:40] in your, in your career.

Speaker4: Like it’s more what.

Speaker1: I would have liked for myself. So [00:51:45] I kind of try and share for other people what I would have liked for myself, because in the early [00:51:50] years of my career, I was very unsure of everything. And I think there’s still lots of elements that I’m [00:51:55] still unsure about. But actually, like I said, I realise how far I’ve come and I want to help other people [00:52:00] get to that place as well. Now, at the moment I just don’t have time to put out stuff with [00:52:05] children, but I really hope to show people that actually [00:52:10] where they are at the moment is great, and what they have within themselves is also great, [00:52:15] you know, and they have everything they they need already [00:52:20] to be great, and all they need to do is put it in place and start walking in it. [00:52:25]

Speaker3: Look, this, this thing you were saying about social media being polarising and making [00:52:30] you feel sort of worse about yourself. I got that feeling from [00:52:35] your page.

Speaker4: Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker3: Because she just seemed so successful. Man, you seem like [00:52:40] you’re living your best life, and and I. And I see you, by the way. I [00:52:45] get it right. It’s so that’s just Instagram. Yeah. Yeah it is, but but I [00:52:50] see you, you know, one moment writing a sort of motivational quote. Next moment [00:52:55] you’re stretching in the gym or something, next moment you’re with your kids, [00:53:00] next moment you’re talking about teeth whitening. Yeah. And I think, well, God, like this [00:53:05] is, this is a person who’s clearly busier than I am and yet still gets time to, you know, [00:53:10] go to the gym and look after a kid. Yeah. Extras. You’re doing so much more than me. You’re doing so much more [00:53:15] than me sort of feeling. Yeah. Now, I’m not a mother and I’m not, you know, I’m not even directly comparable [00:53:20] to you. Yeah, but what you said before, where you see other people and you think that’s [00:53:25] competitive nature comes out and it’s for [00:53:30] it’s one of the downsides of it, for sure, of social media that makes you [00:53:35] end up comparing. And then the weird thing is, like, [00:53:40] you get the people who I’ve got a couple of friends who have private jets [00:53:45] right now, I’ve never seen a picture of their private jet on their social media. [00:53:50] Never. Yeah. And then you get all these other people.

Speaker4: On on.

Speaker3: Private [00:53:55] jets and they’re like, you know, like people put this sort of different side of.

Speaker4: Themselves. [00:54:00]

Speaker3: Forward. Right. But now in your in your work, in your, in [00:54:05] your life and, you know, someone as busy as you nine month old kid, do [00:54:10] you think going forward, as the kids grow up, that you’re going to lean more into this sort of trying [00:54:15] to teach or inspire or, you know, do that stuff? It looks like looking at your [00:54:20] output, it looks like that’s the direction you’re going.

Speaker1: To be honest, I think I’m gonna [00:54:25] spend more time pursuing what my true passions are and bring people [00:54:30] along on the journey. Aha! And if people are inspired by that or [00:54:35] are looking to go on similar journeys, then that’s what I’m there to support. Because as you said. It’s always [00:54:40] a persona. And even in that and it’s funny you say that, but that’s not what I was trying to [00:54:45] portray.

Speaker4: You know, you’re just putting.

Speaker3: Down, you know, bits of your life, right?

Speaker4: Exactly.

Speaker1: But it’s it’s funny [00:54:50] how different things perceive. Different people perceive what you put online and what they [00:54:55] take from it themselves. So yeah, it’s but yeah, my goal essentially [00:55:00] isn’t to tell people how to live or teach them how to live, really, [00:55:05] it’s to help them kind of like reach within themselves. Yeah. [00:55:10] And do what they want to do, because that’s what I’m trying to do for myself all the time. I think one of my posts [00:55:15] I put recently is about how I’d taken a break from social media, because I was getting too influenced by [00:55:20] other people and getting really distracted on what I wanted to do, and I just needed to [00:55:25] take some time to reflect on actually what was important to me and, and focus [00:55:30] on those things. And in the same way, I hope people will not look at my page and think, oh, [00:55:35] I want to do what she’s doing, but be more, be like, if that’s something, that’s also something I want to do, [00:55:40] let me see how she’s doing and see if I can learn anything from there, you know. But how do we do that? [00:55:45] How do we be authentic without making people feel bad? That’s the challenge of social media, [00:55:50] you know?

Speaker3: And it’s not up to you. It’s not up to you to stop people feeling bad. You know, [00:55:55] in the end, you know, you’re busy person, you’re posting whatever, you’re posting this, [00:56:00] you know, it’s just a side effect of it. You know, it’s one of those things. So your your [00:56:05] parents or your mum, particularly UNHCR, um, what are some of the things [00:56:10] that you’ve learned from her? And um, you’ve, you’re doing some charity [00:56:15] work. Dental charity work as well.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: Yeah. So I think the biggest thing that I [00:56:20] learned from my mother is how privileged I am. Yeah, really, from all the places that [00:56:25] she’s been, she’s told me some of the horrendous stories that she’s had to deal with and come to terms with. So [00:56:30] she started off as a refugee lawyer in refugee camps. You know, she would deal with just women [00:56:35] who were displaced and and getting raped in refugee camps and advocating for them. Then she moved on [00:56:40] to advocating for groups of people. Then she would tell me more individualised stories, for example, [00:56:45] children who would be unwell, and then they would get moved around internationally to get some treatment, and then for several [00:56:50] of them would die before they’d managed to get the treatment. So there’s really like people who are having such struggles. And then you look [00:56:55] at your life and you think, actually, I’m so privileged. So that’s I think the biggest takeaway from my parents job [00:57:00] is recognising my privilege. And what a like a great life [00:57:05] I have. It’s it’s difficult to you can forget that easily. But yeah. And I think that was the biggest thing. And [00:57:10] also the desire to make any change that you can do for, for [00:57:15] the world because you think, who am I am such a little person, what can I do? But you know, when she said [00:57:20] to me, here’s an opportunity, here’s what you can do. I’ve laid out the road for you. Will you [00:57:25] come? You know. And I was like, well, why would I say no? You know, so she she [00:57:30] made the introductions. She, you know, said, here’s a camp, here’s someone you can work [00:57:35] with. Here’s a place you can work here are the people needing help, you know.

Speaker4: What are the details? [00:57:40]

Speaker3: What were the details?

Speaker1: So basically, we went to a refugee camp in Malawi. So it’s [00:57:45] the biggest refugee camp there. It’s called Zalika and it’s been there for over 25 years. And they had not had any [00:57:50] dentists in the entire time that the camp had been there. Because unfortunately, the UN sees dentistry [00:57:55] is a luxury. So they provide medical care, but they don’t provide any dental care because obviously the funds [00:58:00] are stretched. So a lot of the people there who have [00:58:05] dental pain or abscesses are they’re just on a rotation of antibiotics basically. [00:58:10] How long terme. So the first time I went, she was [00:58:15] what we call the UN representative from Malawi. So in Malawi she represented UNHCR. [00:58:20] So she was completely in charge of refugee camps. So it gave her a more leeway to do what she wanted [00:58:25] essentially. So she said, okay, why don’t you go in and have a look? So I went there and I did first a screening [00:58:30] program, and I just looked at what the need was before I decide what I needed to come [00:58:35] and do. And I just saw the vast majority of them just needed extractions. And [00:58:40] you had children that had been on like courses of antibiotics for years, basically [00:58:45] on cycles. It’s just really tragic. And so I planned and a [00:58:50] year later I came back with a team of dentists and we went to. So Zuleikha is [00:58:55] the biggest camp. And then they have another smaller camp called Luani. And we did both camps and we were there [00:59:00] for about a week each time, and we just did extractions back to back, no X-rays, no anything. [00:59:05] You’re just doing it. But I was the way it all came together was really amazing. I had an [00:59:10] oral surgeon who came from Egypt, and so she was our failsafe [00:59:15] if anything went wrong. Uh, because like I said, we didn’t have access to X-rays. So [00:59:20] you’re just going for it and hoping that you can get the majority of the tooth out.

Speaker4: Did you have dental.

Speaker3: Dental chairs [00:59:25] and dental?

Speaker4: No, no dental chairs.

Speaker1: So it was in Zalika. They have a medical [00:59:30] centre. So we were working in the medical centre. So they had beds, and I essentially made a list of [00:59:35] equipments that I asked all the dentists to bring, and they just came with their torchlights and I bought loads of. Extraction [00:59:40] equipment from Dentaid, and that was pretty much all we had. And they had a steriliser in [00:59:45] the medical department. So fortunate we were able to use their steriliser. Um, but that’s pretty much [00:59:50] it. So head torch forceps and a translator and we went for it.

Speaker3: And have you got [00:59:55] numbers like in the week? How many teeth did you take out?

Speaker1: So I think we tallied up, we took [01:00:00] over 2 to 300 teeth out.

Speaker4: A week.

Speaker1: In that week. Yeah.

Speaker4: Oh my. [01:00:05]

Speaker3: God.

Speaker1: It was just back to back extractions all day long. And then for for the [01:00:10] ones who had, you know, treatments that we weren’t able to complete in that week because the abscesses [01:00:15] were too large or just, you know, could not be managed in our makeshift clinic, the [01:00:20] dental office still in Lilongwe, which is the capital city. So the camp is outside of the capital [01:00:25] city, and the refugees are not actually allowed to go into Lilongwe. They have to stay [01:00:30] within the camp, and some of them have been there their whole lives, so they could literally be there ten, 20 years and [01:00:35] can never leave the camp unless they move on to their permanent home. And a lot of them get stuck [01:00:40] there. So while we were there, the I went to the hospital [01:00:45] in Lilongwe and they agreed to accept referrals from us. So we were able to refer the [01:00:50] most urgent children who needed more advanced care, essentially, but they [01:00:55] wouldn’t take any adults just because they were overwhelmed as well with just their general populations, but they were willing to [01:01:00] see the children.

Speaker3: So what was the what was the story of the people who [01:01:05] ended up in the refugee camp? Because, you know, my my, my cousin [01:01:10] works, my wife’s cousin works for the UN and and she said that, [01:01:15] you know, it depends on where it is and all that. But the sort of the link between, [01:01:20] you see, we talk about a refugee as if that’s what they’ve always been. [01:01:25] But she she was telling me that there was there was a doctor [01:01:30] and a lawyer in Syria, and their eight year old kid couldn’t [01:01:35] read and write because of the war. They hadn’t had a managed school, and they’d ended up in a refugee [01:01:40] camp, you know, now. Okay, rewind three years back, that was a doctor [01:01:45] and a lawyer in a city somewhere that ended up in this refugee camp. And, you [01:01:50] know, in the same way as, I mean, we see we see these pictures coming out of Gaza, right? People walking, [01:01:55] walking the streets that they didn’t always walk the streets, they had houses or.

Speaker4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [01:02:00]

Speaker3: Or even even even down to, I mean, this totally different thing. But you [01:02:05] see, an old person in the street wasn’t always an old person. It was a young was [01:02:10] a young person.

Speaker4: Young thing. Once upon a time.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What [01:02:15] are the stories like? How did they end up in these camps? And what are some of the stories that sort of stuck with you?

Speaker1: A [01:02:20] lot of them were fleeing conflict. Naturally. Africa, unfortunately, [01:02:25] is just strife with conflict. There’s a long colonial non colonial history behind that that we [01:02:30] just don’t need to go into. But the vast majority of them were fleeing conflict. [01:02:35] You do obviously also have some economic migrants as well and they just get stuck in Malawi. [01:02:40] So Malawi was a lot of them a transit point. A lot of them were aiming to get to [01:02:45] more industrialised countries in Africa. So along, for example, the east Kenya [01:02:50] is doing quite well, Tanzania is doing quite well. Some of them were aiming to go further down south [01:02:55] to South Africa and Namibia, Zimbabwe, and they just get stuck in Malawi essentially. [01:03:00] And I don’t know exactly what the processing process in Malawi is, [01:03:05] but I know that a lot of them find that they’re not able to leave, they’re not able to go back to where they [01:03:10] were coming from, and they’re not able to join society in Malawi because the Malawi is overwhelmed. [01:03:15] So they get stuck in this limbo point where they’re not essentially living, [01:03:20] they’re not moving forward, but they’re not going back. And it’s just a really. So that’s I found that a lot of them had were just [01:03:25] despondent because they had been there for so long and they didn’t know where where they were going next, [01:03:30] essentially. So Malawi is a great country and that it does accept refugees [01:03:35] in quotas. But they were just, I think, [01:03:40] 24,000 refugees in that camp.

Speaker3: And is what tents, literally tents.

Speaker1: Some [01:03:45] of them are houses, some of them are tents. But because it’s been there for so long, it’s got more infrastructure [01:03:50] to it. So there are schools in there and things like that. But you know, it’s still not a proper [01:03:55] city. It’s because it’s it’s a size of a city, you know. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:00] it’s still not, you know, they still don’t have proper services. And like I said, they have this medical centre which [01:04:05] is running on bare minimum with the funds from the UN, which they have to stretch, you [01:04:10] know, across a lot of services. So it’s really a half life essentially, which is [01:04:15] quite tragic. And a lot of them were heading there either leaving, as you said, good [01:04:20] lives, hoping just to find a place of safety or where we’re going from lack [01:04:25] and finding themselves in another position of lack, not having moved any further forward [01:04:30] in their hopes and their dreams. So.

Speaker3: And you must have you’re busy, dentist, mother and [01:04:35] all that, but you must have had moments where you thought if I had resources. What [01:04:40] would be sort of the best way of using them for these sort of situations. I [01:04:45] mean, I’ve got one friend. He was he was saying, look, if you could many, many of us [01:04:50] as dentists and doctors would give up 1 or 2 weeks of, of our, of our year [01:04:55] to do something like this. If there was a nice, organised way of doing it, you know, if. Yeah, [01:05:00] if and he was looking to do that, he was looking to set up a website and, and so forth, and then, and then [01:05:05] he realised he did that, he did that in medicine. And then he realised that, [01:05:10] you know, there’s an aspect of it that is almost still selfish, insomuch [01:05:15] as, hey, it’s nice for us to do a bit of charity work as, as well about it.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Feel good [01:05:20] about ourselves. Yeah. But you know, when they did the study on what would give the best [01:05:25] outcomes, it was training people out there.

Speaker1: Exactly. So the goal [01:05:30] of my charity had three arms essentially was outreach because you need to give practical help immediately. [01:05:35] But actually there was an education aspect and a future aspect as well. So I had [01:05:40] three arms in my plan. So this all happened before I had children. So my outreach trip was in [01:05:45] 2016, 2017, and my goal had been to do annual [01:05:50] trips to give, you know, immediate urgent relief, but also to do training [01:05:55] trips and to train local dental health care advisors who could deal with basic situations. [01:06:00] And I also wanted to set up a dental scholarship as well to help train dentists [01:06:05] in locally, because there’s a huge element with charity work, especially [01:06:10] coming from the Western world. When you’re doing charity tourism, you know you’re going and you’re leaving [01:06:15] and you know you feel good yourself. You’re like, oh, I’ve done this wonderful thing. But actually, what lasting impact is [01:06:20] there? It’s great to help a few people. But you know what Long Terme is, is there. And [01:06:25] places like dent are great because they have got long terme roots in places. Yeah. [01:06:30] And they, you know, they go back repeatedly. And one of the things I wanted to do was to set up something where we go back [01:06:35] repeatedly and have relationships and not just, you know, it’s not just a one time thing. You know, you’d [01:06:40] want people who would say, I can commit to doing this once a year for the foreseeable future, for example. [01:06:45] Right. It’s not about you. It’s about what change you’re putting, what foundations [01:06:50] of change you’re putting in. But children just derailed all of that.

Speaker4: Have [01:06:55] you have you heard of.

Speaker3: Have you heard of effective altruism?

Speaker1: No, I haven’t actually.

Speaker4: I just [01:07:00] had.

Speaker3: A kind of a bad name recently because that guy, um, Sam Bankman-Fried from the, you [01:07:05] know, the crypto thing, he, he was really into it. But but what it means is I from [01:07:10] what I understand, what it means is that look, the okay going going to the camp [01:07:15] and taking the teeth out and the gratitude of that patient who’s now out of pain and [01:07:20] that makes us feel good. And what you just said about tourism, you know, charity, tourism. But [01:07:25] effective altruism says, you know, what would be the most effective thing for you, you [01:07:30] to do. Yeah. So let’s say it’s you. Actually, the most helpful thing for you to do [01:07:35] would be to earn loads of money as a private dentist and give them money to [01:07:40] local dentists to go and buy locally, whatever, you know, whatever [01:07:45] it is. Yeah. And it’s a funny thing. It’s an important thing that we need to understand that our motivation. [01:07:50]

Speaker4: Absolutely.

Speaker3: Yeah. At the same time, your insight that you’ve got [01:07:55] into it from your mom’s work.

Speaker1: That’s what I mean. I’m in a.

Speaker4: Unique position because.

Speaker1: I have a lot of open doors. And [01:08:00] that’s why I think.

Speaker4: For you.

Speaker1: It’s it’s it would be remiss of me not to use them because I have [01:08:05] access to so many people that other people just don’t have. Like because of her role [01:08:10] in the UN, she can connect me to a lot of important people all over Africa who have [01:08:15] access to these refugee camps, you know? So it would be that’s why I feel quite [01:08:20] burdened by it’s a waste of my connections, essentially not to do something, even if I, I can’t [01:08:25] physically go there at the moment, but even it’s just to set up relationships and just to say, you know, what can [01:08:30] we support with. That’s what I’m currently trying to do. So my one of the things I want to do this year is revamp the charity and [01:08:35] actually just start to say, maybe as an element of effective altruism, [01:08:40] what can I do now without me physically coming there that is going to support advancing [01:08:45] the chair? So for example, with our last trip, when we left, we found local dentists and we gave away all [01:08:50] our equipment.

Speaker4: Nice.

Speaker1: Uh, there. So we didn’t bring anything back. We gave it to the dental hospital [01:08:55] in Lilongwe, and we gave it to a local dentist who who found out about our trip online. And he travelled [01:09:00] quite far because he said he literally had nothing, you know. So we gave him all our equipment [01:09:05] and it’s just, you know, things like that. And I think everyone has specific sets [01:09:10] of skills or connections or something that they use, and I’m just trying to use what I have [01:09:15] to the best that I can. But it’s challenging.

Speaker3: Of course. And what was the name of the [01:09:20] charity? Did it have a name?

Speaker1: Yeah. So it’s called Oral Health Africa. It’s on Instagram. I’ll tag it. [01:09:25]

Speaker3: Oh, excellent. Excellent. I’ll take it in the thing as well. Let’s let’s get back to dentistry. [01:09:30] Your job now. Um, what is it? Fully private.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:09:35] so 100% fully private. We see NHS kids and plan patients. [01:09:40]

Speaker3: Okay. And the practice is is it, is it what I would imagine a [01:09:45] fully private practice in around in and around Bristol to be is it very nice and [01:09:50] slow and so forth or what is it like, what kind of practices.

Speaker4: It’s actually quite busy. [01:09:55]

Speaker1: It’s not as busy as an NHS practice. Nowhere near, but I think [01:10:00] probably compared to other private practices, probably a little bit busier. Mhm. Um, and that’s I [01:10:05] think we’re seeing a lot of the fallout from the kind of like reduction of [01:10:10] NHS pay access. Essentially we’re having a lot of patients who are joining our practice [01:10:15] saying I used to be an NHS patient, I literally cannot find an NHS dentist and they’re having to space [01:10:20] out their treatment because they just can’t afford to pay for it and things like that. So we’re quite inundated with [01:10:25] patients at the moment. So it’s an interesting climate to be working in.

Speaker3: What kind of dentist [01:10:30] are you? Are you general? I noticed you do a lot of facial aesthetics.

Speaker1: I did. [01:10:35] I haven’t done as much recently. When I was in Portsmouth, I was running a facial aesthetics clinic. [01:10:40]

Speaker4: Mhm. Um.

Speaker1: Independently. Then Covid hit and that ended. Um, [01:10:45] and I haven’t really done much with it since then. Since moving to [01:10:50] Bristol, I’ve definitely focussed more on general dentistry. I’m trying to pursue my interests [01:10:55] of orthodontics, endodontics and a little bit of restorative as well. [01:11:00] So those are kind of the three things I’m trying to hang my hat at. But I have the unfortunate [01:11:05] thing that I’m always I have too many legs out. So [01:11:10] I’ve progressed very slowly because I’m doing so many things at once. But yeah, those are the things that I’m interested [01:11:15] in kind of trying to move my career towards. Essentially.

Speaker4: Let’s get to darker days. Oh, [01:11:20] um.

Speaker3: We like to talk about mistakes, errors, um, [01:11:25] maybe your most difficult patient or the biggest [01:11:30] clinical mistake in your view. What comes to mind when I, when I talk, when I ask that question.

Speaker1: Oh, [01:11:35] so I think it would be a difficult patient. And this is one I just really did not know what [01:11:40] to do with. So this is an elderly man when I was living in Portsmouth and [01:11:45] he was just really, really challenging. He really needed help. So [01:11:50] he had loads of rotten teeth that needed removing. He was in pain, but he [01:11:55] was a very abrasive and just rude man. And for me that [01:12:00] was a huge human relations thing to overcome because on the one [01:12:05] side, like I said, I’m I’m such a do gooder. I like to do good. And I thought, this is someone that really needs my help, but [01:12:10] this is someone that I really do not like.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker1: And that was just the harsh reality [01:12:15] of it. I really did not like him and I did not want to see him, but he had been banned [01:12:20] from many practices and almost no one else was willing to see him, essentially.

Speaker3: And you thought you were [01:12:25] the one who’s going to break this?

Speaker4: I thought I was.

Speaker1: The one, and boy, did it come back to bite me in the butt.

Speaker3: Go on [01:12:30] laughing.

Speaker1: So I did clearance for him on the lower arch and made [01:12:35] him dentures. And he was unhappy with the outcome and [01:12:40] he ended up suing me, called the local health board and he [01:12:45] was a serial complainer, so they weren’t surprised to hear from him. [01:12:50] But at the same time, it was a huge period of stress for me to go through that complaints [01:12:55] process. And, you know, it’s always the ones you’re trying to help the most, you know.

Speaker4: That [01:13:00] come back to bite you in the bum.

Speaker1: Yeah. And that. Yeah. It just just because [01:13:05] I already didn’t like him, you know. And I was like, oh, and you have this gut feeling like [01:13:10] I really shouldn’t treat him. But it was really fighting the other side of me, which is like, no, but nobody [01:13:15] else will see him, you know, like, where is he going to go? Somebody needs to see him. And I [01:13:20] should have sent him to the hospital. But there I was.

Speaker3: So go. What can we do? What happened? [01:13:25] What actually happened?

Speaker1: So I he was unhappy [01:13:30] essentially. So the actual clinical treatment went fine in terms of the extractions and [01:13:35] the, you know, the clinical part of it. But the dentures he found uncomfortable, [01:13:40] he just wasn’t happy with them, you know. And we spent several appointments going back and [01:13:45] forth. First of all it was the appearance of them. Next it was the comfort of them. Next, [01:13:50] he can’t talk, he can’t eat. He just didn’t adapt to them. And he was a little bit older. [01:13:55] So it was you know, it was challenging for him to adapt to them. But just the whole process of making [01:14:00] them, you know, he was in the clinic just all the time, you know, back and forth, denture ease, denture adjustment. [01:14:05] We talked about remaking, you know, redoing. But he just thought, no, he didn’t want to go through the whole process [01:14:10] again. And we spent like ages going back and forth with him [01:14:15] like months.

Speaker4: You know.

Speaker3: About you I don’t know about you, but [01:14:20] in my career, I can’t think of that many patients that I did a clearance on [01:14:25] and then made full dentures. I made loads and loads of full dentures for existing [01:14:30] full denture patients. But if you put yourself in that [01:14:35] person’s shoes, it must be a complete nightmare.

Speaker4: Yeah, it’s a complete shock. [01:14:40]

Speaker1: Complete. But he wasn’t able to eat properly anyway because they were making roots, you know? So a [01:14:45] lot of broken teeth are mainly roots. So it’s not like he had much to compare it to, but at the same time, [01:14:50] and he’d been like that for a long time. Um, but.

Speaker4: Yeah, he got a letter from [01:14:55] a lawyer.

Speaker1: Yeah. So he, he complained formally, which was not delightful. [01:15:00] Um, and I and I haven’t had a lot of complaints. You get the little [01:15:05] ones like, oh, I’m not having that. And then you kind of like, you know, deal with it quickly and it doesn’t really go anywhere. But [01:15:10] this was the full, you know, get the indemnity involved, the letters back and forth and it dragged [01:15:15] on like that. Basically him giving details, you know, my indemnity responding [01:15:20] back and forth like that for quite a while.

Speaker3: How long like how long are we talking.

Speaker1: Less [01:15:25] than a year.

Speaker4: Oh, my.

Speaker3: God, as long as I.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:15:30] Um, I can’t remember exactly because it’s quite a while ago now, but it went on for quite a while. What [01:15:35] was the.

Speaker3: Feeling that you had? Was the feeling that you had was that, uh, this guy was [01:15:40] sort of an outlier. Difficult patient. Maybe I should maybe I shouldn’t have jumped [01:15:45] in.

Speaker4: Oh, I completely.

Speaker1: Felt I shouldn’t have.

Speaker4: Done. No no no no no.

Speaker3: But I’m saying maybe I shouldn’t have jumped [01:15:50] in. But, you know, at the end of the day, this was going to happen somewhere along the line with this guy with with someone. [01:15:55] Or was your feeling sort of much, much darker than that, that [01:16:00] you know, you were trying your best? Now this guy saying you weren’t and maybe, maybe you could have treated him better. [01:16:05] Maybe you could have warned him. What was what were you thinking? Was it getting you properly down about the dentist [01:16:10] you were, or was it getting you down about the decision to treat this one patient?

Speaker1: I think [01:16:15] it was probably the decision to treat the one patient because by and large, we’re always doing our best. You [01:16:20] know, if I, I don’t not that I don’t feel bad about my mistakes, but when I [01:16:25] do make mistakes, I don’t I try not to beat myself up about it because it’s not because I’m not trying. It’s [01:16:30] genuine human error. And these things are going to happen, you know? And obviously as you go along in your career, [01:16:35] it should hopefully happen less, but it’s still going to happen. But what I found particularly [01:16:40] difficult is that despite me being my best, trying my best and saying, yeah, here are things that I could [01:16:45] have done better, but I’m still trying my best. That wasn’t good enough, you [01:16:50] know? And I think that’s the bit that really hurts. And that was really difficult to deal with because, like, [01:16:55] I was trying my best for you where a lot of people wouldn’t.

Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker1: You know, and [01:17:00] that was yeah, it was more I think again, it’s it’s always the human [01:17:05] relationship element of it that I found difficult.

Speaker4: You know, on, on reflection. [01:17:10]

Speaker3: Apart from not treating him because that you’re saying that’s the [01:17:15] right move, but that would.

Speaker4: Have been the right move.

Speaker3: Yeah, but but apart from that, would you have done something [01:17:20] differently within the within the treatment or within the communication?

Speaker1: Um, [01:17:25] I think maybe I would have made the downsides. Um, [01:17:30] sound worse than they were. You know, they always say under-promise and overdeliver, and I [01:17:35] didn’t under-promise enough. You know, I just thought from someone who hasn’t had [01:17:40] dentures and who’s been in so much pain, this is going to be great. You know, it’s going to be such [01:17:45] a step up from his current situation. That’s the way I kind of looked at it and presented it, and I [01:17:50] it never even crossed my mind that he would be unhappy with any [01:17:55] outcome from where he currently started. And I think that was the difficulty.

Speaker3: It’s [01:18:00] funny prosthetics that there’s such a such a psychological side to prosthetics as well. Um, [01:18:05] I have a bunch of experience with it. I did a house job which had a prosthetic bit [01:18:10] in it. One of my bosses was was. That’s all he did. Um, and then we [01:18:15] had a great teacher in university, and the guy in university, he used to say this, actually, he’d say, say [01:18:20] to your patients that it’s a wooden leg. You know, let them understand.

Speaker4: Really? Good. [01:18:25] Yeah.

Speaker3: And he used to say, so it’s a wooden leg. And eating is [01:18:30] like playing football with a wooden leg. And I guess that’s what he’s saying, isn’t it? Lower expectations. [01:18:35]

Speaker4: Yeah, really.

Speaker1: Like I did not know it enough, but I’m just thinking he’s had abscesses for [01:18:40] so long.

Speaker4: I’m sure he’s just glad.

Speaker1: Yeah, he’s just going to be glad to be pain [01:18:45] free and have something to put some food against. But no, that I [01:18:50] just yeah, I made it sound too great I think.

Speaker3: I’ll [01:18:55] take I’ll take that one. I’ll take that one, I’ll take that one. Because sometimes, [01:19:00] sometimes I, I don’t know what was the outcome. What was the outcome. How did it all end?

Speaker1: Oh, [01:19:05] God. It’s actually quite a horrendous story. Oh, God. Um, he dropped it in the. Oops, sorry. [01:19:10] He dropped it in the end. Um, he just kind of, like, idled away, and he. [01:19:15] But he still wanted to come to see me, which is the difficult part and the practice. And you’re like, [01:19:20] okay, cool, you can come. And then he passed away because like I said, he was older. So that was the end of it. [01:19:25] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker3: That’s that’s that’s that’s that’s a good one [01:19:30] we can all learn from.

Speaker4: Brilliant. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. So it didn’t like in terms of like claim and [01:19:35] everything, it didn’t go anywhere because after all the back and forth he just decided to drop it.

Speaker3: So so [01:19:40] in the preamble, you told me that you kind of decided not [01:19:45] to open a practice.

Speaker4: Um, is.

Speaker3: That your final decision or is that just for now?

Speaker1: No, [01:19:50] no, that’s just for now. Just because I think in this moment of life with children and life [01:19:55] and trying to always move forward, I feel again a little bit overwhelmed. And [01:20:00] opening a practice is just another big hurdle that I don’t know if I want to. And plus, because my husband’s [01:20:05] not a dentist, he’s not really interested at all in doing it with me. I might get convinced him, [01:20:10] but it’s just for him. It’s too much of a learning curve and he doesn’t show [01:20:15] any interest in it. And it’s not something I’d want to do on my own. So. But, you know, we both might change in the future. [01:20:20]

Speaker3: What about a business partner?

Speaker1: A business partner I had thought about. But there’s, you [01:20:25] know, it’s it’s an intimate relationship. And the relationship is very important. [01:20:30] And you’ve I’ve heard about, you know, because I did a little bit of research on it and just the number of failures that [01:20:35] happened because of poor partnerships, you know. So for me, [01:20:40] the only comfortable person I would feel with at the moment is my husband. [01:20:45]

Speaker4: Um, I.

Speaker3: Don’t think you should take those those failure stories too much to [01:20:50] heart, though, because you know well a number of failed [01:20:55] marriages, if you want. If you want, you know what I mean?

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: I don’t know about [01:21:00] you, but I find I’m similar to you in so much as I find it particularly [01:21:05] daunting to start a business by myself, I just there’s so many things I’m bad at that [01:21:10] I just do not. I want someone else to. To help.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Um, [01:21:15] but the question of who that partner should be, actually the, the sort of the received [01:21:20] wisdom on that is in a way, it’s better if it’s a total stranger sometimes. Now, I [01:21:25] can’t live without I can’t I’m like you, I’ve got a fully 100% know [01:21:30] that person. Trust that person. And before I can get into a business relationship with [01:21:35] them. Mhm. Um, but business people, you know, business people, it doesn’t [01:21:40] matter who they’re partnering with. Yeah. They set out expectations at the beginning.

Speaker1: And they want you to meet.

Speaker4: Them. [01:21:45] Yeah.

Speaker3: And, and and they meet them. You know, they say, all right we’re going to meet once a week. We’re going to do this. And, and [01:21:50] um, I think in dentistry we one of the reasons to open a practice [01:21:55] is to have full control, isn’t it. That’s that’s one of the reasons why [01:22:00] associates start practices is to get control. And so in a way, [01:22:05] if if you’re partnering with someone who you’re not aligned with, then you haven’t got control. [01:22:10] So what was the point of opening a practice.

Speaker4: Yeah that’s true.

Speaker3: It’s rare that [01:22:15] people do it for the money. And and often the money isn’t as much as a very, you know, well, [01:22:20] well, well associated with doing very well often. Definitely at the beginning [01:22:25] the money’s not there, but the control piece really is. So, you know, [01:22:30] you’re let’s imagine you run into a Russian billionaire and he says, look, I [01:22:35] trust you. I want you to open our dream practice. I’ll give you the money. I’ll [01:22:40] give you the resources. What kind of practice would it be?

Speaker1: It would definitely be a restorative based [01:22:45] practice, as I said, predominantly focussed on orthodontics, endodontics and just [01:22:50] restoring because I think that’s a lot of people. Even though orthodontics has a huge cosmetic [01:22:55] element, it’s not just cosmetics.

Speaker4: Yes it is. Come on.

Speaker1: It’s not just [01:23:00] cosmetics.

Speaker4: It’s just huge. And that’s the issue.

Speaker1: I’m interested in, like the functional [01:23:05] movements as well, you know, moving teeth to be able to better place a bridge or re intruding [01:23:10] teeth. You know, a number of teeth are taken out in dentures because they’ve over erupted [01:23:15] and things like that, like there is definitely a huge element to that. And yeah, [01:23:20] anyway, it would be a restorative practice. Um, and [01:23:25] it would be very digital, digital technological I love technology. [01:23:30]

Speaker4: Oh do you.

Speaker1: So I love technology. So I always have the newest I try not to [01:23:35] get over to. I’ve got like I live in the Apple world, so I’m all Apple phone, iPad, [01:23:40] Apple Watch. You know, I get everything connected to everything. So [01:23:45] I would have a nice technologically connected practice, get [01:23:50] every CAD cam, everything in the practice, all the scanners. And yeah, that’s the kind of environment [01:23:55] I would work in.

Speaker3: Of all the courses you’ve been to, what were the standout ones?

Speaker1: Oh, [01:24:00] that’s a good one. I went on a really good communications one. Oh I can’t remember [01:24:05] his name. This is terrible. Um. Oh it will come to me [01:24:10] later. I think it’s called the PLP course.

Speaker4: Plp.

Speaker1: Yes. [01:24:15] I cannot remember his name, but it’s not marketed at all. [01:24:20] It was recommended by somebody. It was recommended by Rena, actually, who? I went to university with. The Reno [01:24:25] idea.

Speaker4: Oh. Were you in there? Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah, she she took every award going.

Speaker4: I [01:24:30] heard, I.

Speaker3: Heard that, I heard that.

Speaker1: Yeah, loveliest, loveliest person in [01:24:35] the world. Um, so.

Speaker4: On this.

Speaker3: Podcast as well.

Speaker1: Yeah I know, yeah. Everyone’s [01:24:40] had her everywhere. She is. Yeah. She’s all over and she’s deserves to be because she deserves [01:24:45] everything that she has. She’s worked so hard and is the kindest person ever. Um, [01:24:50] so yeah, Rena recommended and referred me and it’s a, it’s [01:24:55] a communication course. And actually it was really good just about the patient journey and how to interact [01:25:00] and communicate with patients. And it’s just a lot of he breaks it down into really minute [01:25:05] steps and just makes it really reproducible that anyone can do. And [01:25:10] I really enjoyed that course because again, communication is something that is not really focussed enough. [01:25:15]

Speaker3: So one of the nuggets, what were your sort of two three takeaways on [01:25:20] communication that you can teach us?

Speaker4: Oh, okay.

Speaker1: One major takeaway [01:25:25] is agree with the patient. You know you don’t want to [01:25:30] bring negatives into the conversation as much as you can. You reinforce and agree with [01:25:35] whatever they’re saying with you as much as it’s true, obviously, you know, but you want to get [01:25:40] on the same playing field of patient. And one of the good ways to foster [01:25:45] a good environment is by agreeing with people essentially, you know, obviously if it’s something you do not agree with [01:25:50] or it’s factually wrong, then you have to make that clear. But as much as possible, you want to be in [01:25:55] agreeance and repeat their agreement. So I remember one thing on the course is like when they say things, you want to repeat their yes [01:26:00] to them, and it’s just little things, but it helps foster a connection when [01:26:05] people repeat your language. So that was one thing I took away. Another thing was [01:26:10] to match the patient’s energy. So if [01:26:15] someone comes in and they are down, it’s not great to be chirpy. Chirpy. Even if you are feeling [01:26:20] chirpy, you know you need to kind of look at where they are and match your energy [01:26:25] and your mood and your tone and yeah, just everything about you to where they are.

Speaker4: Kind [01:26:30] of like the.

Speaker3: Nlp mirroring thing. Exactly.

Speaker1: Yeah, completely. And so [01:26:35] many times I remember I’ve had to actively do it, and it’s only later on the point where I’ve had to fight. I’ve found out [01:26:40] why. So, you know, someone will come in and they’ll be really surly or quiet or down, and I may be really [01:26:45] happy and laughing and joking with the previous patient, but I think, let me just tone myself down for this patient, and [01:26:50] you’ll find out halfway through the appointment that their husband died yesterday, or, you know, so they don’t need [01:26:55] you laughing and sounding cheery at that moment. You know, they need you.

Speaker4: At their pace [01:27:00] the.

Speaker3: Way they. There are some people who are really good communicators. Right. And so what is [01:27:05] a very good communicator? The person who does that naturally without without even thinking about it. For [01:27:10] the rest of us, we can think about these forces. We can think about it [01:27:15] and adjust ourselves down or up or whatever. I mean, it’s the same as sales training, isn’t it? [01:27:20] There’s the there’s the killer salesman who just naturally can tell what the person [01:27:25] wants and and can. And then there’s the rest of us who have to say, okay. When when there’s [01:27:30] an objection. So think about it like this. Okay. And what [01:27:35] other courses. So that was communication.

Speaker1: That was communication. Um, other stand [01:27:40] out courses. To be honest I’m actually really enjoying the, um, simply undo ten day course. [01:27:45]

Speaker4: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah, I really enjoying it. It’s giving me lots of nuggets. Um, I’m doing it online [01:27:50] because I can’t do anything in person with young children. Yeah. Um.

Speaker3: And [01:27:55] is a hands on element to it as well. Yeah.

Speaker1: So they send you all the, um, equipment. [01:28:00]

Speaker4: Bits?

Speaker1: Yeah. All the bits, um, with the blocks and things like that. And you [01:28:05] need to collect extractor teeth as well. I’m a little bit behind on the, the number of the lectures that I [01:28:10] should be. So I’ve got a few of the, of the sets that I need to work through the practical elements. But yeah, [01:28:15] they send you all the bits. And then I bought a nice little cheap endo motor online and I just [01:28:20] at home, like I said in the evening, I’m just sitting there drilling on my blocks, you know, listening [01:28:25] to the lecture. And it’s just really good nuggets. It’s not just you know.

Speaker3: The [01:28:30] nuggets go on for the general.

Speaker4: Practitioner.

Speaker1: I don’t know if I have enough yet to be honest.

Speaker3: Couple for the general [01:28:35] practitioner.

Speaker1: I think I’m too early I don’t think I have anything. Oh don’t be.

Speaker3: Shy. Don’t be shy. [01:28:40] Go on.

Speaker1: I’m still kind of like working. Okay. Actually, the most important thing I think [01:28:45] that has really impacted my endo so far from doing the course, is the importance of a glide path. [01:28:50]

Speaker3: Remind us, remind us about that. [01:28:55] That does ring a bell.

Speaker1: So, yeah. Um, I couldn’t give you an exact definition if [01:29:00] I’m if I’m honest, which is terrible.

Speaker4: It’s kind of from, from.

Speaker3: From the access to the tip.

Speaker4: Being smoothly. [01:29:05] Just making.

Speaker1: You. Yeah. Giving you a clean access all the way to the apex. [01:29:10] Because a lot before this, I was working on enlarging with the rotary files, but actually [01:29:15] or even finding the access with the rotary files. Um, but it’s actually, as you say, it’s [01:29:20] making a path for the rotary files to go on and follow more smoothly. And it’s just [01:29:25] made everything more straightforward.

Speaker3: And how like, like how [01:29:30] long is this course? Is it ten weeks.

Speaker4: So it’s 1010.

Speaker1: Days.

Speaker4: Ten days over.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:29:35] So two days a month. So it’s five months essentially. So you can go in person [01:29:40] for two days. And I’m doing it two days online and watching the videos in the evening. [01:29:45] And then they send you all the practical stuff to do at home if you’re doing it on the online course. So it’s really great [01:29:50] for, for someone like me who, like I said, I’m in the phase of my life where just going to things hands [01:29:55] on courses is just not practical for my life at the moment. Like I can’t have my husband doing [01:30:00] all the bedtime’s that often. It’s just not fair. But I still want to kind of pursue knowledge. [01:30:05] Online has been absolutely amazing with the how much it’s expanded since Covid, [01:30:10] but just so fantastic. And I’ve really tried to make the most [01:30:15] of it. And just I do everything online now as much as I can. Obviously hands on is important because dentistry is [01:30:20] a practical and clinical degree, but I’m definitely going to get as much as I can while I can at this [01:30:25] point until I can go back to being more hands on. And there’s a lot you can do here. [01:30:30] Really.

Speaker3: What’s the future hold?

Speaker1: Ooh, that’s a good question. [01:30:35] Um, the future for me holds diversify. For [01:30:40] a long time, I thought I wanted to leave dentistry just because I was disillusioned and blah, blah, blah. But I was talking to my husband [01:30:45] the other day, and I think actually, even if I was really, really wealthy, I don’t think I would stop [01:30:50] being a dentist because I’ve worked so hard to get here. Like it’s been blood, sweat and tears. And I [01:30:55] just when you’ve I don’t know if it’s a sunk cost fallacy where, you know, you once you’ve put so much energy [01:31:00] into something, you don’t want to give it up. But I have put a lot into dentistry. And for that reason, I think it’s [01:31:05] always going to be with me in some sort of capacity. It may not necessarily be working in practice if [01:31:10] I, you know, somehow just make something and become a billionaire. You know, I [01:31:15] may be giving practical skills or, you know, be working entirely as [01:31:20] a charitable dentist and not charging for what I do entirely. But it’s a very unique skill, and there’s [01:31:25] not a lot of people in the world who can practically do what we do, you know? So as much as I can earn money and give it, [01:31:30] there’s also a lot of benefit to actually just practically doing the dentistry for people who don’t have access to it. [01:31:35]

Speaker3: So you should definitely follow up the charity whichever direction you go in.

Speaker4: Yeah, I [01:31:40] definitely will. Yeah.

Speaker3: Whichever direction you go in and whether that’s, you know, it’s completely [01:31:45] under your auspice, whether it’s within another, you know, at the end of the day, there’s a vanity [01:31:50] kind of metric in it as well, right. That says.

Speaker4: This.

Speaker3: Is my charity, but [01:31:55] you know which direction you go. You definitely should do something with it. And, [01:32:00] you know, listen, I’m fully up for helping out with that as well. If oh, that’d be great.

Speaker1: The more support, the better.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:32:05]

Speaker3: Any any way I can. So Don so going forward.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:32:10] So charity definitely um, hopefully becoming the restorative [01:32:15] dentist that I want. So focusing on lens orthodontics and restorative [01:32:20] dentistry. So that would be my future I don’t I like I said, I don’t see myself owning a practice, [01:32:25] but I would like to work in a space where I’m completely. Free to really focus [01:32:30] on those areas. And in terms of, yeah, I’m going to stay [01:32:35] in Bristol. I’ve done a tour of the country, so I’ve, I feel at home here. So this.

Speaker4: Lovely.

Speaker3: Lovely, [01:32:40] lovely town isn’t it. It’s one of my favourites.

Speaker4: It’s so family.

Speaker1: Orientated. It’s a really [01:32:45] comfortable. So it’s really nice place to raise my children. And yeah, I’m also interested [01:32:50] in business generally. Like I said my husband does property investing so I will be doing some with him as well. [01:32:55] And yeah, looking into properties and that end of things as well. So that’s that’s what I see myself [01:33:00] in the future.

Speaker3: I know it’s a it’s a little while away, but would you want your kids to be dentists?

Speaker1: To [01:33:05] be honest, I don’t mind. Um, I know a lot of people say, oh, don’t do it. You know, it’s stressful, [01:33:10] it’s all this. But I’m very much pro follow your passions, and if they have an interest in [01:33:15] it, then I would support them in it.

Speaker4: Yeah, but.

Speaker3: You know, the way the way this sort of thing turns out is. That’s a lovely [01:33:20] answer. But the way, the way it works out is your kid doesn’t have passion for any job. [01:33:25]

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, this is true. That’s how it looks. Would I.

Speaker1: Direct them to do.

Speaker3: It? Yeah. [01:33:30] Your kid’s got a passion for PlayStation, let’s say. All right. Okay. Um.

Speaker4: I [01:33:35] think I.

Speaker1: Would, I think I would want my kids to be dentists, because in the end, as much [01:33:40] as we have many challenges and there is a lot, there are a lot [01:33:45] of jobs where you’re unfairly remunerated for the work that you do. But I think, again, [01:33:50] compared to a lot of the world, we do. Okay. You know, so we work [01:33:55] hard and we get we get a living wage, you know.

Speaker4: So living wage, that [01:34:00] is the truth.

Speaker1: If you want to look at the basics of it, we can we can live, you know.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:34:05]

Speaker1: So obviously there’s people who have higher aspirations than living. But you know, [01:34:10] compared to a lot of jobs out there that work just as hard as us, we we live we do. Okay. So [01:34:15] I would I would definitely encourage my children to be dentists. It’s not the only thing in the world you [01:34:20] can do, but I don’t think essentially it’s a bad career.

Speaker3: Yeah, you’re right about you know, I’ve [01:34:25] got I come across a lot of dentists, don’t I? And, um, sometimes you get a guy who’s, [01:34:30] you know, he’s a principal somewhere. He’s earning, I don’t know, 300 grand a year. [01:34:35] And, um, he says, you know, I’m getting a bit bored of dentistry. I [01:34:40] say, so what is it you want to do instead? And he’ll say something like, I’ve always [01:34:45] fancied myself as quite good at marketing. And they’ll he’ll ask me about marketing [01:34:50] because we do marketing as well, right? Yeah. It’s a big part of our. And I was always [01:34:55] having this funny thing I say to you that, you know, the guy who’s earning £300,000 in marketing [01:35:00] is head of marketing for Procter and Gamble. So a world [01:35:05] famous marketeer.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: He’s not a practice owner in Rochdale or wherever [01:35:10] this guy was. Yeah.

Speaker4: You know we do concept.

Speaker3: Yeah. We earn well [01:35:15] for what we do. Um, that said, it’s hard work.

Speaker4: It’s a lot of [01:35:20] hard work. Yeah, I think.

Speaker3: I think two and a half days might be the perfect number of days for dentistry, although [01:35:25] I’m generally against half days insomuch as I feel like, you know, you’ve still got to [01:35:30] go in that day. I know.

Speaker4: You’re there. I know it’s not.

Speaker1: My choice again. Not my practice.

Speaker4: Yeah, [01:35:35] I guess.

Speaker3: Half days, but I’ve I’ve done it all. I’ve done five days. I haven’t done six. I’ve [01:35:40] done five days a week for three, two, one and um, definitely three and two [01:35:45] are the right number three, three. If you want to feel like you’re doing a real, you [01:35:50] know, it’s your full on job and then, you know, your two days of property investment if you want, or kids or whatever it [01:35:55] is, that’s the other side thing or two days a week. If dentistry is kind of the side thing [01:36:00] and actually you’re pushing something else, whether it could be charity or kids or whatever, but 2 or 3 [01:36:05] really is right. One definitely isn’t right. I’ve done one day a week. It’s just no, no, no [01:36:10] balance, no, no cadence.

Speaker4: Yeah. I wanted to be hard.

Speaker1: To have continuity.

Speaker4: With one.

Speaker3: You just [01:36:15] don’t care. You know? You don’t care when things go wrong. Yeah. Because you’re just not there very much.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:36:20]

Speaker3: Let’s get on to our final questions. Fantasy [01:36:25] dinner party. Three guests, [01:36:30] dead or alive, who would you have?

Speaker1: Number one, I would [01:36:35] most definitely have Michelle Obama.

Speaker3: Are you like a bit of Michelle Obama? [01:36:40]

Speaker4: I love a bit Michelle Obama.

Speaker1: Um, I love a bit of her. I loved her books. [01:36:45] I read both her books and, um, becoming and The Light We Carry and becoming particularly was really [01:36:50] poignant for me. And there’s one quote in there that she said something along the lines of, we have to [01:36:55] go out there and identify ourselves. Oh, no. Um, yeah. Give ourselves [01:37:00] an identity before the world gives us an identity. And that really spoke to me [01:37:05] in terms of there’s so many pressures in the world and so many things in the life that give you labels. And, [01:37:10] you know, her whole book, becoming was about how she went out and forged the path that was specific to her. [01:37:15] And she obviously had a very unique role being the first African American first lady. And it was really [01:37:20] tough position to be in where you’ve got all these expectations and this long history that you [01:37:25] need to follow up with. And I think she did it brilliantly and forged a path that was completely unique to [01:37:30] her, and she didn’t look to anybody else on what she should be doing or should be thinking. But she forged her own path and she forged [01:37:35] her own identity. And that’s really poignant to me. So I’m trying to forge my own identity.

Speaker4: Nice. [01:37:40] Yeah.

Speaker1: Guest Nelson Mandela.

Speaker4: Nice. [01:37:45]

Speaker1: My dad actually met Nelson Mandela as a running joke in my family, because he’s got this big picture of him sitting [01:37:50] next to Nelson Mandela, and he sends it to each of us.

Speaker4: To frame.

Speaker1: Up [01:37:55] in our house. And one of the family friend got married at our house, and he had the picture [01:38:00] at the altar next to the wedding.

Speaker4: That’s my dad.

Speaker1: And [01:38:05] so, yeah, Nelson Mandela, just because I think what he managed [01:38:10] to achieve with the Truth and Reconciliation Committee is just amazing. And [01:38:15] I just, I can’t imagine how someone having that capacity to forgive after [01:38:20] all the suffering that he went through. And I think just the opportunity to talk [01:38:25] to him and just to hear his heart, his soul, his thinking, his mind, just what [01:38:30] brought him to that point, I just think would be fascinating because that’s just and I just I don’t know if I [01:38:35] would be able to forgive after what he went through, basically.

Speaker3: Yeah. He comes up a lot in [01:38:40] these in this question. Yeah, understandably. Understandably. And [01:38:45] he’s the third.

Speaker1: Number three would actually be Angelina Jolie.

Speaker4: You what? [01:38:50]

Speaker3: Okay.

Speaker4: Come on I know, I know.

Speaker1: Everyone I tell you, my husband and he was like, what? Basically [01:38:55] he.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: I’ve always I’ve always adored Angelina Jolie [01:39:00] just because she is actually one of the UN’s biggest philanthropists.

Speaker3: Oh I see, yeah.

Speaker4: Okay. [01:39:05]

Speaker1: She’s a massive giver. She’s a massive, massive philanthropist. And [01:39:10] I have this weird obsession with adoption. And I’ve always thought adoption is just the most beautiful thing in the world. [01:39:15] And obviously she’s adopted loads of kids from around the world. And I just think actually, if I was a wealthy [01:39:20] person and that’s how I would want to do life like her in terms of her philanthropy, [01:39:25] you know, she gives away a huge portion of her income. She’s been a UN ambassador for a [01:39:30] long time. And yeah, she really uses her fame to highlight global causes [01:39:35] and and highlight the plight of refugees. And yeah, she’s. Yeah, she she just. And [01:39:40] what I love about adoption is it’s one it’s like the long it’s the, um, permanency [01:39:45] of it. You know, it’s one thing to give to a cause and keep it distant, but it’s another thing to take an orphan [01:39:50] and bring them into your home and make them your child.

Speaker4: Mm.

Speaker1: You know, and I think that’s that [01:39:55] is a different level of intimacy and compassion and love that I [01:40:00] just really admire. Basically. Yeah.

Speaker3: Me too. Me too. Beautiful.

Speaker4: It’s [01:40:05] my turn.

Speaker3: It’s beautiful. The final. [01:40:10] Final question. Difficult for someone so young. But it’s a deathbed question. [01:40:15]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, children. Grandchildren. Who are you? [01:40:20] Anyone who means something to you. What are three pieces of advice [01:40:25] that you would leave for them and for the world?

Speaker1: So the first one [01:40:30] would actually be a quote. The quote from Michelle Obama, which is kind of like forge your own identity [01:40:35] before the world forces one on you. And I think that’s, again, with the [01:40:40] so much pressure in the world, it’s so easy to lose our way. And this is something that I’m constantly having to do to remind [01:40:45] myself of who I am and not get influenced by what everyone else is doing, really. [01:40:50] And I think it’s only by doing that that we really find our true fulfilment [01:40:55] and contentment. Because as long as we’re comparing ourselves to other people and trying to, you know, [01:41:00] keep up with the Joneses, then we’re just running on a hamster wheel, going endlessly. [01:41:05] So yeah, the first would definitely be to forge your identity and tell the world who you are before the world tries [01:41:10] to put you a label on you, put you in a box, and there’s lots of kind of cultural and racial and things [01:41:15] like that that come into that as well, and that I’m definitely trying to instil with my children, because obviously being a minority, you get [01:41:20] put in boxes and things like that. So for me, it’s even more poignant that I teach my children [01:41:25] to be like, you need to know who you are and you need to tell the world who you are before the world tries to tell you. [01:41:30]

Speaker3: Do you think that whole Black Lives Matter thing.

Speaker4: Was.

Speaker3: Big when it was? [01:41:35] What was your. What’s your. I asked you this question, right? The your [01:41:40] experience of being a black woman in dentistry.

Speaker1: I think there’s different [01:41:45] challenges, and I don’t think I would say that. I think that everyone has their challenges and I don’t [01:41:50] think you can compare them. I don’t, for example, like dentistry was [01:41:55] previously predominantly male, but now it’s predominantly female. Yeah. You know, so, um, [01:42:00] there’s a swings around about women still get paid less. So in [01:42:05] that sense you can say across. Is that.

Speaker4: True? Is that true that.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:42:10] that is true. That’s why you still have women. International Women’s Day because we still earn a little bit less than men.

Speaker3: If [01:42:15] that was the case, why doesn’t everyone just hire women?

Speaker1: Who knows? Um, I don’t know, [01:42:20] I don’t know, I don’t know the details of it, but statistically across, um, across [01:42:25] jobs and what they are reporting for income for similar jobs, similar qualifications, [01:42:30] women will still be paid slightly less.

Speaker3: Do you know what I mean? Though? I’ve got 44 employees. [01:42:35] Why aren’t they all women? If that’s the case, if I can learn my costs.

Speaker4: I will do it. I know that [01:42:40] it would be obvious. And you get caught out.

Speaker1: There. Doing it slyly, [01:42:45] that’s why.

Speaker4: Okay. Um.

Speaker1: So. Yeah, [01:42:50] I don’t think it’s. Yeah. I think we have different challenges, different expectations. So I think [01:42:55] it’s hard to be a person basically. So, um, I wouldn’t pit one against [01:43:00] the other, but maybe that’s just, you know, you you answer from your experiences in life. Yeah. And. Yeah. [01:43:05] And these are my experiences in life and I, I see the challenges that men have and I and I’m, I’m [01:43:10] okay with my challenges. Basically there’s some that men have that I don’t think I’d want.

Speaker3: So forge [01:43:15] a path for yourself before the world does. What’s the second piece of advice?

Speaker1: Second piece of advice is [01:43:20] see as much as the world as you can. So a lot of the prejudice in the world [01:43:25] come from people living small minded lives and only seeing things from their perspective [01:43:30] and only having experiences of people similar to them. And I think the world [01:43:35] would be a much better place if more people spent time interacting with people that were different to them, [01:43:40] and the further afield, the better, in my opinion. The more interactions you have [01:43:45] with cultures, with peoples, with things like that, it’s so enriching and [01:43:50] will completely change your perspective on your life and, you know, have huge [01:43:55] impact on your own mental health and wellbeing and view [01:44:00] on life and just happiness generally. But as well as being able to [01:44:05] see the value of humans who are different to you and see the [01:44:10] value of their homes and their cultures and and see things from a completely different perspective, the world would be [01:44:15] just a better place. So I would definitely say travel as much as possible and interact with as [01:44:20] many different people as possible.

Speaker3: And I’d add to that, I’d say travel as much as possible, as young as possible. [01:44:25]

Speaker1: Oh, definitely, because travelling with children is just not the same.

Speaker4: There’s that, [01:44:30] there’s that.

Speaker3: But you know, it’s you get to a certain age where you just want, uh, you just want to go to a good [01:44:35] hotel and. Yeah, whereas when you’re young, you haven’t made your mind up about stuff. No. You [01:44:40] know.

Speaker1: Yeah. You would not catch me in a hostel now. I just couldn’t do it.

Speaker4: Right. Exactly.

Speaker3: What’s [01:44:45] the third piece?

Speaker1: Um, the third thing is don’t let fears [01:44:50] hold you back, because there’s, again, with this whole thing of you have greatness in you. [01:44:55] But a lot of us, we are the biggest roadblock in our own lives. And [01:45:00] I talk more from my own experience. So in the past I had this I had loads of fears and [01:45:05] I just there’s lots of things even like, particularly with my charity, that when I started it, I had loads of opportunities [01:45:10] and I said no to a lot of them, just out of fear, which I’m just so sad about [01:45:15] now. Like as soon as I started it, I got, I had BBC Africa requested to interview me. [01:45:20] I was invited to be a panel on Africa Global Health Summit and I just thought, who [01:45:25] am I? Why are they inviting me all to all these places? Or why would anyone want me there? And I just said no to all these things [01:45:30] that would have.

Speaker4: Been.

Speaker1: I know I now I look back on it, I was like, how much more [01:45:35] could I have done with the platform that I could have had, you know? And it was just pure [01:45:40] fear and I felt like I had nothing to say. And actually it wasn’t [01:45:45] about me. And that’s the thing, you know, fear tells you a lie. And I just lied [01:45:50] to myself, essentially. So that’s the biggest thing. Now I say yes to everything.

Speaker3: I [01:45:55] think it goes full circle as well, you know? Then then the skill becomes learning [01:46:00] to say no to stuff after that.

Speaker4: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [01:46:05]

Speaker1: Fear hold you back.

Speaker3: It’s been so amazing to have you on. It’s so, so [01:46:10] positive. It’s it’s been.

Speaker4: You.

Speaker3: It’s been a wonderful, um, conversation. We’ve gone for [01:46:15] an hour and 50 minutes. Oh, wow. Can you believe that? It’s gone crazy. Um, [01:46:20] thanks so much for for doing this. And, uh, hopefully I’ll catch up with you in [01:46:25] a couple of years time when the charities are.

Speaker4: Yeah. Massive. Send you the link.

Speaker1: In the meantime. [01:46:30]

Speaker3: Actually, we’re gonna have to wait for the nine month old to put her socks on.

Speaker4: I know this. [01:46:35]

Speaker3: Charity can get this.

Speaker4: Potential anywhere. Yeah.

Speaker3: No. [01:46:40] Thanks a lot for doing this. It’s been really lovely time.

Speaker1: It’s been great talking to [01:46:45] you.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:46:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:46:55] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:47:00] and Prav Solanki.

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:47:05] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:47:10] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:47:15] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:47:20] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:47:25] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.