Speaker1: We often talk about this concept of of the the third victim or the second victim. The third, [00:00:05] the third victim is probably going to be you. You know, you suffer as a direct result of [00:00:10] that complaint or that error. And even if they don’t complain, you know, you walk home and you think, oh my [00:00:15] God, that’s me. I can’t believe I did this. I can’t believe I missed that. And every one of us, anybody [00:00:20] who’s doing dentistry will have done that, have that sinking feeling of I’ve done something wrong. And even if [00:00:25] the patient doesn’t complain, even if nobody finds out about it, you have that sinking feeling. And I think [00:00:30] that a that makes you a professional, it makes you a caring professional. You’re not burnt out. It means you still care, which [00:00:35] is great in itself, but it is one of the the real challenges of being a clinician and [00:00:40] dealing directly with patients, and also the fact that it happens in real time, you know, the [00:00:45] patient is not anaesthetised. You’re they’re, you know, they’re not under general anaesthetic. You can do what you like in the general [00:00:50] anaesthetic. Something goes wrong. Well, there’s no panic. There’s no stress here. You know, instantly something [00:00:55] goes wrong. They know you know it. And I think that’s why it’s it’s so challenging as a profession [00:01:00] when something goes wrong. Because. Because it is ever so personal.

Speaker2: This [00:01:05] is Dental Leaders [00:01:10] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:01:15] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:25]

Speaker3: So let’s talk about the BDA brand. I [00:01:30] mean, you grew up in the BDA system, sort of the pack and all that. [00:01:35] It’s one of those love hate things the profession’s got with the BDA. I’m 100% [00:01:40] sure if it didn’t exist, you’d have to invent it. It’s a bit like the UN or something. You have [00:01:45] to we need one, right? And I know it must be a nightmare [00:01:50] to keep so many different types of people happy. And I know it’s ridiculous to [00:01:55] ask you to defend or or stand for an organisation [00:02:00] as giant as the BDA, but just for the sake of the argument, you and your skills. [00:02:05] You could have done this privately. You could, you could, you could have you could have gone and done another [00:02:10] one of these, um, you know, my, my, my good friend Neil has done his own one or whatever, [00:02:15] you know, one of those. But but you chose to go down the, the BDA route is that do you [00:02:20] feel like an element of sort of service to the profession?

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, I think [00:02:25] the, the two reasons we went to the BDA indemnity setup or indemnity [00:02:30] setup of the BDA was two reasons. The the first reason essentially was there were lots and lots of [00:02:35] BDA members complaining that the mutuals and insurance companies were not serving them well. [00:02:40] Basically, they discretionary companies would pull their cover at the last minute or subsequently, [00:02:45] at least they wouldn’t be there, etc. etc.. So we think this is very odd. So [00:02:50] we approached our sort of had a at that time, Peter Walsh was uh, head of the BDA [00:02:55] and we approached the organisation, said, you know, we can either work with you or, you know, let’s [00:03:00] sort this out. And we couldn’t get a straightforward answer with them. We said we might go into collaboration with them. Couldn’t get a real, [00:03:05] uh, sort of landing on that. So he said, okay, you know what, we’re going to do this ourselves because it’s not really our business. [00:03:10] We’ve been around this at trade union and professional association for over 100 years, and DMP is not our business. We shouldn’t [00:03:15] be our business at all. So for us to get into, we had to have a very good reason. The reason we [00:03:20] got into it was we wanted to be dentists for dentists, and we wanted to deliver a product [00:03:25] that was actually going to going to be the best for the patient, but also for the dentist. [00:03:30] So, so the difference between us, the biggest differences were, were contractual. [00:03:35] Um, so it’s not mutual. So you have a contract with us for insurance as opposed to mutual [00:03:40] discretionary relationship.

Speaker1: And we are all dentist for dentists and [00:03:45] we are occurrence based. So which is again what the mutuals are. But unlike an insurance company [00:03:50] which has claims made, if you left us an occurrence basis and a claim came in 510 [00:03:55] years down the line, you won’t need to be paying, run off, cover, etc. etc.. So. So we thought that was the [00:04:00] best model. And there was insurers RSA were the insurers that we went with. They [00:04:05] gave us a fantastic policy. We spent a long time costing it and getting getting it to where we want [00:04:10] it to be. And and that the rationale for why I think it’s the best thing is because it’s [00:04:15] a one stop shop, because you now have a professional association, you have a trade union, [00:04:20] you have every service that you could possibly have, including indemnity. So one of the frustrations [00:04:25] I had when I was a dental advisor, Dental protection was somebody had thrown up. We give them advice and they say, [00:04:30] oh, by the way, I’ve also my practice is stitching me up for the money. There’s a complaint, but [00:04:35] he’s holding the money back and there’s a relation, I think, well, I can’t help you with that. That’s a contractual issue. It’s a business [00:04:40] issue. You need to go to the BDA and they say, well, not a BDA member to give you [00:04:45] some advice, but I can’t I can’t really do much for you. Basically you need to be a member. Now we can simply say [00:04:50] you are a BDA member. Um, we’ve got a huge amount of advisory services, we’ve got compliance, [00:04:55] we’ve got health and safety, we’ve got a whole range of things.

Speaker1: And the beauty about. And [00:05:00] what is sad is that it’s only when I started actually working [00:05:05] the BDA that I realised just how much gets done. I was a committee member at Young Dentist on PEC [00:05:10] and I knew what was going on to greater or less extent, but I didn’t realise just how much goes on. There’s [00:05:15] nothing in dentistry. The BDA doesn’t know about every single aspect of [00:05:20] every British professional life they know about, and the stuff that people don’t know about, they know about. Whether [00:05:25] it’s related to the GDC, the NHS or whatever, and we deal with them every single day. There’s new stuff coming across [00:05:30] the desk every single day. Policy decisions by the NHS, by NHS England, by the GDC, [00:05:35] by, uh, CQC. These guys are on it every day and I could pick up the phone to anybody [00:05:40] in this organisation and they’ll know about every single thing that’s going on. And if they don’t know about it, [00:05:45] they’ll soon find out about it. That is unique because there’s no matter no matter what organisation, there’s no [00:05:50] way that they’d have that amount of knowledge and expertise bang up to date. And I think the [00:05:55] frustration is that it’s seen as a trade union, which it is, and it’s badged [00:06:00] as NHS. You’re just an NHS organisation and you really don’t care. You, uh, care [00:06:05] a hoot about private dentistry. And I think we recognise that, that it’s been branded [00:06:10] as that.

Speaker1: But when we, we looked at this recently and said actually everything we’ve got on our [00:06:15] website actually is not specifically NHS. There is, there is some NHS stuff, but [00:06:20] most of it’s private stuff. How you run your practice, how you take payments, uh, all [00:06:25] the every bit of advice that applies to private entity as well. And I think the, the difficulty [00:06:30] we have is and it’s a mantra from my colleague Russell Russell, he says we [00:06:35] aren’t NHS dental private, we are just dentists. Okay. Simple, straightforward dentistry. And [00:06:40] we happen to earn our income either privately or from an NHS contract or from [00:06:45] both. Okay, we are not. And the badge ourselves as an NHS dentist or [00:06:50] as a private dentist is actually a is actually a fallacy because we are just dentists. We’re full stop [00:06:55] clinically, we’re dentists with private dental treatment and it just happens to be the contract we’re working under, [00:07:00] the payment method that that we get. And I think we forget that when when the BDA [00:07:05] representing people, they represent the NHS for pay and rations to the to the government, but they’re also representing [00:07:10] them as a profession. And we’re in there fighting with them for against [00:07:15] the GDC. We’re the ones who came up with who challenged the, the GDC with, with their own money, [00:07:20] with the annual retention fee years ago. One, the one the, the ruling [00:07:25] that the, the, uh, judicial review and, [00:07:30] you know, we did it thinking actually we might get more members if we do this. [00:07:35] We didn’t just kind of set people kind of just for.

Speaker3: The benefit.

Speaker1: You [00:07:40] get benefit. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, it happened then.

Speaker3: Correct me if I’m wrong. If [00:07:45] you had to make the case against the BDA, incredibly unfair of me to make you do this. It would be [00:07:50] that would it that it or is it something else.

Speaker1: But no I think I think the [00:07:55] case against them would be we’ve probably haven’t served the private [00:08:00] dentists as much as we should. And and it was it was the reason why bapd British private dentistry [00:08:05] set up in the middle of Covid, because it looked like we were just an organisation that supported dentists [00:08:10] through Covid. We we wanted the support of them. We we fought [00:08:15] tooth and nail to, to get that. And we kind of ignored, ignored the plight of private entities. We weren’t getting the support that NHS [00:08:20] dentists did. And I think we sort of took a hard look at ourselves and said, yeah, you’re probably right. We we [00:08:25] weren’t as aware of it and I think we were probably going to get to, uh, we’re going [00:08:30] to get to the situation very soon, where as a policy, the BDA will just be saying, you know what, NHS [00:08:35] is dead, dead in the water. You may as well just bail out and start looking for another form of income. And I think we’re very [00:08:40] close to that. We’re pretty well there now. Um, because nobody, nobody knows [00:08:45] the NHS better than us. We literally have meetings on a weekly basis with NHS England. [00:08:50] There’s no chance of contract reform. There’s no chance of of getting the the udas. So [00:08:55] we’ll be there for many years to come. And that’s a broken system. It’s been broken since 2006. [00:09:00] And this is the second health select committee that said it [00:09:05] said as much as broken. And we’re still and nobody’s the government’s making no attempt [00:09:10] to change it. So so I think the answer is going to be that the the criticism might be we weren’t. [00:09:15]

Speaker1: And I think one of the criticisms might also be we don’t tell people enough about [00:09:20] what we do. You know, we do a lot, but sometimes we do things behind [00:09:25] the scenes because when an organisation makes an [00:09:30] incorrect decision and we challenge it and they say, yeah, okay, you know, you’re right. If we went to the press or went [00:09:35] to the members every time and said, guess what, the GDC were going to do this. We told them not to or NHS [00:09:40] England was going to do this. We changed their mind. They said, oh, right, well, fantastic. We’re not going to talk to us ever again because, [00:09:45] because all we’re going to do is, is, is spill the beans on them. So, so I, you know, we work behind the [00:09:50] scenes an awful lot and things that we, we have lots of little victories or changes [00:09:55] of minds because we because of that approach, because they recognise that we’re not going to go and. Gladstone [00:10:00] undermine people’s confidence in them because we had a minor victory or a major [00:10:05] victory. So don’t shout from the rooftops. So. So I think that’s in a sense it’s the frustration [00:10:10] of how this this organisation operates. And I see that on a daily basis, thinking we [00:10:15] do so much for everybody. And, and, and it’s just, you know, a few members who recognise [00:10:20] it because they use the services, other people don’t use the services. They actually what did I get from my membership? [00:10:25] I think that’s that’s the problem.

Speaker3: I mean, talking about bringing [00:10:30] the two areas together, we’re talking about blame when things go wrong in, in, [00:10:35] in dentistry. And we talk about shame when that happens. And [00:10:40] then the question of sort of representation within BDA [00:10:45] is, is it something particular to dentistry that do you think is something particular [00:10:50] to dentistry. That means that we, number one, are not united. And [00:10:55] number two, when something goes wrong, we we’re [00:11:00] scared of it. You know, we’ve got black box thinking, um, and, you know, the [00:11:05] way that we run away from errors. Is there something specific to dentistry, [00:11:10] or do you think this is just professions in general?

Speaker1: I think it’s professions in general. I mean, I think there’s probably [00:11:15] a slight there’s well, not I mean the, the, the competitive, the [00:11:20] representation. And I think, um, interesting I don’t think that’s the same amongst lawyers. [00:11:25] Um, you know, my son’s a lawyer. I’ve obviously got, um, people who [00:11:30] are lawyers. Uh, my other son’s an actuary. They don’t have that sort of, uh, [00:11:35] because they don’t have that sort of split nature about them. Because [00:11:40] we are partly because we are competitive, because we’re competing with each other in [00:11:45] one sense, a dentist, uh, you know, from one, one street across to the next, you kind of competing [00:11:50] for business. So there may be an element of we’re kind of divided ourselves artificially because somebody, [00:11:55] probably somebody NHS. There is almost a dismissive approach to an [00:12:00] NHS dentist. To stays in the NHS will surely, surely be bright enough to see that the NHS [00:12:05] is dead. You should be leaving. So there’s there’s almost a pejorative sense of [00:12:10] being an NHS dentist. So there’s kind of competition between dentists, but it’s also division because [00:12:15] you have dcp’s, you have different groups in the profession [00:12:20] wanting different things at different times. And I think that that also leads to that sort [00:12:25] of sense of division. And so I think that that’s a particular problem. But but the feeling of [00:12:30] making mistakes and errors and shame is probably not unique to dentistry. I [00:12:35] think everybody will find that every profession will have a have a every [00:12:40] professional person will have a sense of doing wrong and being ashamed about it basically in [00:12:45] every sort of profession. So I think that that’s just the nature of it.

Speaker1: But the problem with the problem with dentistry [00:12:50] per se, unlike, say, being a lawyer, is it’s personal because you’re actually doing [00:12:55] this treatment on this particular person and you’ve caused them this, or they accuse you of causing them this [00:13:00] particular harm. So it’s very direct. And you don’t have the the sort of corporate [00:13:05] response as you would, you know, you make a complaint to a hotel or a restaurant [00:13:10] or a, or an airline. Well, it doesn’t really matter who the pilot was, who the air hostess was, who’s [00:13:15] surging behind the counter. It’s a corporate response. So you don’t never feel that it’s you [00:13:20] directly, whereas here it’s you personally. It’s directly you. They’ll they’ll use your name in the complaint [00:13:25] and it’s going to be your treatment, your action, your words that they’re challenging. And I think that’s why it’s it’s [00:13:30] so personal. That’s why it gets to people so much as a, as a dentist. Because [00:13:35] on a human level, you go into work to do the best you can. Nobody goes into work saying, [00:13:40] you know, today I’m going to have a I’m just going to treat everybody badly. You go in, you know, with [00:13:45] that diligence that that feeling of wanting to do good. And, and I think [00:13:50] in a sense, the one of the, the joys of, [00:13:55] of that is the flip side of it because, because you, you want to go to do work [00:14:00] and do the best you can. But when it goes wrong, you take it very personally, um, because [00:14:05] you didn’t want to do wrong, you didn’t want it to go wrong, and it has gone wrong. So you take it very, very personally in a way [00:14:10] that probably I don’t even think even the medical professionals will, will take it as badly [00:14:15] as we do.

Speaker1: And we often talk about this concept of, of the the third [00:14:20] victim or the second victim. The third, the third victim is probably going to be you, you know, you, [00:14:25] you, you suffer as a direct result of that complaint or that error. And even if they don’t complain, [00:14:30] you know, you walk home and you’re thinking, oh my God, that’s me. I can’t believe I did this. I can’t [00:14:35] believe I missed that. And and every one of us, anybody who’s doing dentistry will have done that and have that [00:14:40] sinking feeling of, I’ve done something wrong. And even if the patient doesn’t complain, even if anybody [00:14:45] finds out about it, you have that sinking feeling. And I think that’s that. A that makes you a professional. [00:14:50] It makes you a caring professional. You’re not burnt out. It means you still care, which is great in itself. But [00:14:55] it’s but it is one of the the real challenges of being a clinician and dealing [00:15:00] directly with patients, and also the fact that it happens in real time, you know, it’s [00:15:05] the patient is not anaesthetised. Um, you’re they’re, you know, they’re not under general anaesthetic. [00:15:10] You can do what you like in the general anaesthetic and it goes wrong. Well, there’s no panic. There’s no stress here. You know, [00:15:15] instantly something goes wrong. They know you know it. And I think that’s that’s why it’s [00:15:20] it’s so challenging as a, as a profession when something goes wrong. Because, because it is [00:15:25] ever so personal.

Speaker3: I mean, it’s very interesting because I do another podcast at mental health [00:15:30] podcast around dentistry and um, this question of, [00:15:35] you know, suicide. Why? Why dentists? Why, why not brain surgeons? [00:15:40] And I was talking to my, um, my cousin, he’s a he’s an eye surgeon. [00:15:45] And we were talking about this question of the live patient, and [00:15:50] he was saying how much more tired he is, how much more drained he is. And [00:15:55] the patient said it’s an LA compared to if it’s a GA situation [00:16:00] and it’s something that we take for granted. But the cumulative stress [00:16:05] of that live patient and the thing you’re saying about taking things personally, I [00:16:10] probably the the best legal advice of Dental legal advice [00:16:15] I’ve heard in my whatever years is not to take complaints [00:16:20] personally, but it’s inevitable. I mean, what you just described is inevitable, [00:16:25] and in fact, even worse than the situation that you described is when you really feel like you did your very [00:16:30] best and the patient thinks you didn’t, and your patient, you know, the patient’s got it [00:16:35] wrong, but you did your very best. And and now your livelihood is on the line and all those things. Right? [00:16:40] Yeah. Um, I think, on the other hand, the question of why are we not sort of more [00:16:45] united? Do you agree with me that sometimes under the guise of patient’s [00:16:50] best interests, we’re particularly nasty to each other, you know, because [00:16:55] we’ve got that sort of that cover of we’re doing this, we’re talking we’re having this conversation for the patient. It’s [00:17:00] not, you know, that’s the cover that we’re under. And so we can just be as nasty as we like because [00:17:05] because we’re caring so much for our patients. Yeah.

Speaker1: It’s a concept. Yeah I think so. And [00:17:10] yeah. And yeah, you could do because you’re saying, well, the reason you put [00:17:15] something up on our Instagram and somebody criticised it and you say, well, the reason I’m saying [00:17:20] this is because I don’t think you’ve done the best for that patient. And you’re not asking the patient’s best interests, which [00:17:25] is which is interesting because I’m not quite sure whose best interest some of these things are founded [00:17:30] in, you know, but but, but picking up this thing about stress and one of the other things I find what I, [00:17:35] what I, what I think is also particularly challenging is something my, my son mentioned the other day. [00:17:40] He says, how is it that you can be? He says, it’s really tiring [00:17:45] being nice to people all day. Yeah, okay. And I thought, actually there’s an interesting concept, he says, because I [00:17:50] just go to work, you know, if I have a bad day or a bad day, you know, I can sit behind my [00:17:55] computer, whatever. But you, dad, you’ve got to be nice to every single person. And if you’ve had if you’ve [00:18:00] done something bad, if something’s not gone quite right, you’ve got an ex patient’s coming, you know, do come in. [00:18:05] Have a seat. It’s a wonderful. And or you’re running late and you have to you have to slow [00:18:10] down even more.

Speaker1: So uh, you know, you’re running 15 minutes late. They know that that you’re [00:18:15] trying to rush them and you say, no, have a seat. How’s your grandchildren? How are the kids? How was your holiday? And you, [00:18:20] you’re an actor. You’re playing this game. And it’s hard. It’s hard work particularly, [00:18:25] you know, we talk about this thing about mental stress and and, you know, having time out because we [00:18:30] say you should be doing two things. One, celebrate the success. So when something goes really well, you fitted [00:18:35] the crowd patients really happy. And they walk out and you’re fantastic and you think, right, next, next patient [00:18:40] come in, you’re thinking, no chance to even absorb that and enjoy that moment. Basically with with [00:18:45] the staff or the flip side when something doesn’t go quite, quite right. Not catastrophic, but [00:18:50] it’s difficult. It’s difficult extraction. You’re stressed, you’re anxious, and you’re now running late and the next patient comes in, you [00:18:55] just got a big smile on your face, and you’ve got to do it all over again. And it’s I was talking to [00:19:00] somebody. They say the doctors that the medical students are now looking [00:19:05] at seeing has anybody done their A level has done acting okay. And [00:19:10] I thought that was an interesting concept because actually you’re going to be a pretty good actor. Yeah. You know as a, as a clinician [00:19:15] because it because you’ve got to you’ve almost got to subjugate your own personality, [00:19:20] your own your own views because you know, you know, somebody says, oh, I [00:19:25] hate the Tories.

Speaker1: Yeah. The Tories are terrible. Next patient comes in I hate the Labour Party. Yeah, yeah. The Labour Party is terrible [00:19:30] basically. And you’re thinking, right, okay. I don’t want to have an argument with you. We’re just we’re just going to run this particular [00:19:35] thing. And people have very strong views. They don’t know what our views are yet. They’ll, they’ll they’ll express their [00:19:40] views and you’ve got to stay up. Yeah yeah, yeah that’s fine. That’s fine. So I think it’s, it is, [00:19:45] it’s and I think it’s that challenging nature we started at the beginning talking about, you know, what makes [00:19:50] a good dentist. What makes a good dentist is that ability to be a good actor, but also be [00:19:55] empathetic. But you know, but but have that those communication skills and it’s not necessarily about [00:20:00] and actually being being able to cope with that, that that sort of constant [00:20:05] being in the limelight. Um, with those patients, uh, you’re almost being a, being [00:20:10] an actor on a stage, but the stage is just you in that patient and also your nurse, your [00:20:15] nurse is also privy to all your errors and all your your mishaps as well. [00:20:20]

Speaker3: I think, you know, having having left dentistry that or clinical dentistry, I think now [00:20:25] for me, it’s 12 years ago. It’s the thing I miss the most is those conversations. [00:20:30] I mean, it could be a big part of the reason why I do a pod is because [00:20:35] I want to have conversations with people in my office. I’m in my office right now in my office. It’s [00:20:40] it’s the same. It’s the same group of people. Much as I love them, it’s the same group of people [00:20:45] continuously. And it’s so weird because when you when you’re a dentist, [00:20:50] humans are kind of in the way of you doing doing the work. Yeah, [00:20:55] but it’s only when you stop that you realise the bits that you really miss. [00:21:00]

Speaker1: It’s spot on. Absolutely. I mean, there was, there was. I think it was, uh. Must have been [00:21:05] two years ago now. I had a diagnosed neuralgic amyotrophy, basically. So my [00:21:10] hand basically just froze. Uh, one Monday and that that hand was slipping out of my hand and, [00:21:15] and basically as a, as a neuralgic amyotrophy of of [00:21:20] of of a nerve, basically. So, um, so I had to stop work and I’d stopped work [00:21:25] for in the end, it was about 7 or 8 weeks, and there was a possibility that I wouldn’t be able to go back to work [00:21:30] again. And it was a catastrophic not not for any other reason that actually it [00:21:35] wasn’t about the money because because the practice was running perfectly well. Um, there’s no issue necessarily I could [00:21:40] carry on working at the indemnity, so. But I’d be stopping till then. So the two things that affect me [00:21:45] most was the potentially the forced retirement of suddenly saying, right, you’re not working anymore. [00:21:50] And that wasn’t your decision. It was nature’s way of saying stop. And the other thing was actually a conversation. [00:21:55] I, I, my, my wife had come back. First of all, she’d say, I saw your patient, which is always a bad thing to say when you [00:22:00] say, well, so what, what did I do wrong then? And she said, well, why were you doing x, Y and z? And, and [00:22:05] and what I missed most was the conversation.

Speaker1: She was chatting about the patients. Um, started by the [00:22:10] practice. And I thought, you know what? I missed that. What I miss most was actually this conversation with the patient, [00:22:15] the chat, the interaction. And I’m stuck at home here, basically just looking at the four walls. [00:22:20] And that’s what, you know. And it was just like with Covid and people stuck and thinking, actually, when all our staff [00:22:25] came back after Covid, they said, I’m so glad to be back. Back here working. My husband [00:22:30] or wife is is still at home, but I love coming in. And it was just it’s the conversation. It’s a human contact. [00:22:35] And and yes, it may be stressful, but one thing and I think people probably [00:22:40] underestimate just how powerful that a human interaction is [00:22:45] to your own wellbeing. Because, you know, I come home and I say to my wife, oh, guess what? You know, I was chatting to [00:22:50] this person about this, this and said, oh, you know, be a good place to go on holiday. They’ve mentioned this place to that place. [00:22:55] You’re thinking, oh my goodness me, or such and such is happened and you’re thinking, right, and that’s, that’s a conversation. [00:23:00] And that’s the beauty of that human interaction. I think we, we underestimated our peril.

Speaker3: I [00:23:05] it’s interesting, I’ve had that situation too, where I treated my wife’s [00:23:10] list of patients when she took maternity. And what I found really interesting was the [00:23:15] conversations I was having with her patients were completely different to the ones she was having. [00:23:20] And you take it for granted that, you know, you get the same thing from the same [00:23:25] patient. So Mr. Smith, he’s a lovely man or whatever it is, [00:23:30] but totally different. Like she’d been seeing these patients for eight years, and I was talking [00:23:35] to them about questions she’d never asked before. Yeah, it really is. I [00:23:40] don’t know, I don’t want to say it’s the best bit of dentistry because there’s there’s loads of dentists who love the other part. [00:23:45] Right. The Meccano piece, uh, bless him, Lewis McKenzie always used to tell me about [00:23:50] the pleasure he used to get from just matrixing something correctly, [00:23:55] you know, just just doing that and, you know, just doing a very simple mo composite [00:24:00] and how much pleasure he would get from that. So, you know, there’s different areas of dentistry. [00:24:05] Um, but for me, definitely that, that social side, definitely the most important one. Let’s get let’s [00:24:10] get to um, darker questions. I’ve really been looking forward [00:24:15] to asking you about clinical errors, legal problems that you’ve [00:24:20] had. What’s been your most difficult patient?

Speaker1: Me personally.

Speaker3: As a dentist.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:24:25] Yeah I the, the clinic I have I had I’ve had a claim [00:24:30] and I’ve actually used it in a couple of presentations basically. And the [00:24:35] what it was, was basically was a, I prescribed penicillin to [00:24:40] an allergic patient. Penicillin. Uh, Perkins alleged penicillin, basically. And, you know, I’ve [00:24:45] gone through it so many times in the past, but essentially in my own head, what happened? But it [00:24:50] was a classic. Patients in pain squeezed in and gave some antibiotics. [00:24:55] You needed a bit of swelling, gave some antibiotics, prescribed it on a Wednesday. And [00:25:00] I get it. I go in on Saturday morning for my for my clinic and it’s [00:25:05] 8:45. And the receptionist says to me, oh, you need to phone [00:25:10] up Mr. Smith. You saw Mrs. Smith on Wednesday. You, Mr. Smith, wants to talk to you. Uh, his wife’s [00:25:15] in hospital. She’s in ICU. Um, he wants to know, uh, what [00:25:20] you’ve given him. He’s not going to sue you, but he wants to know. And I’m thinking this is a great line. At [00:25:25] 8:45 on a Saturday morning, I haven’t seen any [00:25:30] patients. And I’m thinking. Right, uh, that’s just what I need to hear, basically. So so I said, right, [00:25:35] okay, what’s the patient? Let me have a good look. And I think I did good mathematics, actually. Hang on a sec. [00:25:40] Uh, they’re allergic, so why why I didn’t give them penicillin. So. [00:25:45] So anyway, they so I sent the patient back up, uh, looked at it and said, right. Okay. Really [00:25:50] sorry to hear about your wife.

Speaker1: What? It’s gone. She’s nice to you. Um, so she so sorry [00:25:55] I gave it on the Monday. So? So she says she had a rash, came out with a rash. They [00:26:00] thought it was meningitis, so they. They’d give. They’d been treating it as meningitis. And I said, okay, it’s fine. [00:26:05] And I said, so I said yes, I did give her a penicillin. She’s obviously alleged penicillin. And I’ve [00:26:10] looked at the records and she did tell me she’s allergic to penicillin on our notes, so I don’t know why I did it. I’m really, really sorry. [00:26:15] It’s my fault. Okay. Um. And he says, well, not really your fault. I just it’s probably my [00:26:20] fault. I said, why is your fault? He said, well, because I know she’s allergic. Penicillin. So when you gave it, I should have checked it. I said, well, [00:26:25] not your problem, it’s my problem. So I said, well, uh, and he says, well, I said [00:26:30] possibly, you know, the, the pharmacist, but it’s, you know, I wrote the prescriptions is my problem. Is that okay? That’s fine, [00:26:35] I said, but you know, he said, but also he said, but he says interestingly, he says the um, we [00:26:40] knew she was allegedly penicillin, that the, um, the hospital’s given a penicillin. I said, sorry, [00:26:45] well, they’ve given a penicillin because they think it’s meningitis. I said, well, what are they doing? Will they be giving [00:26:50] a I.V. penicillin? I’m thinking, hang on a second. I said, I’m gonna check this. This is so. [00:26:55]

Speaker1: I said, don’t they know she’s alleged penicillin? He said, well, it is on the records, but I don’t think [00:27:00] so. I’m thinking, right. Okay. So this is this is interesting. I said, well, I’ll, I’ll take full responsibility for it. And [00:27:05] so, so on the Monday we’ve changed our system. So it’s [00:27:10] on all the records. If anybody’s on penicillin or water or anything else, there’s a pop up note. Whatever. We [00:27:15] had a meeting, we discussed it. Um, we had a we had a incident report, [00:27:20] you know, twice around the the practice meeting, etc., etc. so fine, I’m not going to happen again. [00:27:25] And that was the last. So then about two months, about uh, [00:27:30] 4 or 5 weeks later, I wrote to him, explained everything, explained what we’ve done, explained why it had happened, [00:27:35] um, why it wasn’t gonna happen in the future, etc., etc. and about it was all silent. About a month later he wrote back [00:27:40] and said, it’s a thank you for your letters. Been a bit of a bit of a nightmare journey. She’s okay. She’s better [00:27:45] now. Thank you very much. But if you hadn’t admitted, if you hadn’t said, if you hadn’t taken responsibility [00:27:50] for it, I would have taken it further. Okay. So. Okay. Interesting. Fantastic. Uh, so that [00:27:55] was fine. And, you know, you know, and I think somebody said to me, did you contact your defence [00:28:00] organisation said, well, not really, because I knew what I was going to do. And the answer was I had to be open, I had to be open.

Speaker1: I’d be honest, [00:28:05] had to be truthful, told the patient, and there’s no point hiding out, going to admit it without any shadow of a doubt [00:28:10] that I’d made the error. But the and they said, oh, well, he says, well, the GDC [00:28:15] would also want you to do exactly what I’ve done, because and in the end, if [00:28:20] it ever came to GDC case, would they would my fitness to practice be impaired? The answer is no, because I’ve [00:28:25] learned from it. It won’t happen again. Repetition is very unlikely. Your current fitness practice will be impaired. [00:28:30] So I was worried about the GDC. Was I worried about it saying possibly as it happened, nothing [00:28:35] happened. Four months later I did get a claim. Okay from that, from the from the parents, [00:28:40] from the wife. Basically claim for whatever made a claim of about well [00:28:45] started at 20 grand basically and um for hospitalisation. And I thought actually, you know what, what’s [00:28:50] happened here? They’ve been at a dinner party. Somebody mentioned, you know what? I was [00:28:55] in hospital. She’s quite ill. Why? Because the dentist gave her penicillin. But what did you do about [00:29:00] it or nothing? He apologised. I wouldn’t do that. Hang on a sec. You better sue him. He’s already [00:29:05] admitted it. Go and sue him. So they did. Basically they. They sued. But. But interestingly enough, I [00:29:10] was a dental practice at the time and said, you know this is very interesting. I. Before we settle this claim, [00:29:15] I need to see the hospital records.

Speaker1: Get this close to the records. We’ll see what’s going on. And they had. They’d actually given [00:29:20] her IV penicillin. Okay. When she was. When she was. The reason [00:29:25] why she ended up in it was because they’d given her the, the the penicillin. Obviously, I’d given her penicillin [00:29:30] as well, but but they’d given it to our IV. So. So she’s critically ill as a result of [00:29:35] them and, and I think and and I said, right. Okay. We do need to point out to them we’ll [00:29:40] settle the case because I triggered the whole thing. She wouldn’t be in hospital in the first place. It wasn’t for me, but [00:29:45] but it was compounded subsequently by what the hospital did. So we said, okay, [00:29:50] we reduce the claim down. She she got £10,000 for it. She was just happy and that was the end of it. But but but [00:29:55] the the abiding memory for me is, is obviously making that mistake. And one of the [00:30:00] things I’m really passionate about is, is a we’ve got to learn from the mistakes, these things going to happen. [00:30:05] People make mistakes. People don’t do these things deliberately, but also the fact that I’d like [00:30:10] to be able to still be working in practice, to still have that connection with [00:30:15] our members, to say, you know, because often people say, well, it’s okay for you to talk about record keeping and [00:30:20] how good it should be. Well, you’re not you’re not in practice. Well, if I’m in practice, I’m still working [00:30:25] in a practice.

Speaker1: I still do NHS work. So I’m with you and I understand what’s going on. So I can be pragmatic with you, [00:30:30] but equally so I can be equally critical when you’ve done something really stupid because [00:30:35] it’s not really something that’s a reasonable dentist would do. So I think [00:30:40] it’s that that connection that allows me to to do that and hopefully [00:30:45] be a bit more empathetic to people’s situation, because I know I’ve been there and lots [00:30:50] of people will say, actually, you know what? I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t knowing what you do, [00:30:55] I wouldn’t I would have given up ages ago. And actually, I think because, you know, [00:31:00] you often can see the whole thing rolling out in front of you. You think, I know, I know where this is going [00:31:05] to end. You know, when that happened, I think, right, this is what I need to do to stop it going any further. Because because [00:31:10] this is going to if, unless, unless I do something now, it’s going to roll on and roll on, roll on. If I, if I’m [00:31:15] if I’m not honest, if I’m not open, if I’m not truthful, it’s just going to get worse. [00:31:20] Um, let me suffer the consequences ultimately. But let me just do something now. And I think when [00:31:25] people are because they don’t know the potential consequence, they get really fearful [00:31:30] and very closed and then and then get more trapped in [00:31:35] their way of thinking. Because thinking, oh, if I do this or I say this and I apologise, it’s just going to get worse, it’s going to get worse, going [00:31:40] to get worse.

Speaker1: I’m not going to do it. And I remember, you know, even in our own practice, um, a [00:31:45] patient was she was irrigating her pocket. Periodontal pocket, but was [00:31:50] given was given hypochlorite instead of instead of corsodyl because the [00:31:55] nurse is the nurse wasn’t wasn’t used to that surgery. Walked in and handed a prefilled syringe [00:32:00] which would normally prefilled syringes anymore. A prefilled syringe, which is actually hypochlorite she injected [00:32:05] into the pocket burning sensation and the dentist realised what had gone wrong. [00:32:10] And then the patient’s. What did he do? Said, well, yeah, don’t worry about it. It’ll be okay. What have you done? What [00:32:15] have you checked so well, if I tell you, you’d be more upset thinking, why did you say that? You should. [00:32:20] You should have just said it’s. You know, we picked up the wrong syringe. It’s it’s it’s hypochlorites [00:32:25] the bleaching agent. But, you know, it’ll be okay. Don’t worry. And the mystery and the subterfuge [00:32:30] made even worse because she was terrified as a as a young dentist, you think, oh my God, whatever I’ve [00:32:35] done, I’ve made a mistake. I can’t admit to the mistake. The answer is it is a terrible thing. It’s very [00:32:40] hard to admit to a mistake. But, you know, if you’re going to have to, you’re going to have [00:32:45] to fess up at some point. You may as well just do it now, basically. So I think that’s that’s the challenge, I.

Speaker3: Think, to your [00:32:50] earlier point about, you know, patients who have had injury [00:32:55] needing compensation, I think in your case there that that that’s fine. Right? [00:33:00] That £10,000, you know, there was there was injury there. But before you realise about [00:33:05] the hospital. Hiv and, uh, penicillin. [00:33:10] Did you suffer with shame?

Speaker1: I did, I [00:33:15] did because even more shame.

Speaker3: Because of who you are or or not.

Speaker1: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Because, [00:33:20] you know, it’s you know, you see those things all the time. You’re thinking, right, I shouldn’t make a mistake. [00:33:25] And then you go home to your wife, who’s also a dentist, thinking, so why did you do that? Okay, [00:33:30] okay, I don’t I don’t I don’t need you to criticise me as well. And you say, right, okay. [00:33:35] So did you not look at your notes? Did you not look at the medical street, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know I should have done all that. And [00:33:40] it’s, it’s even more obviously easy to stop. Um, so which makes it makes the [00:33:45] mistake so much more stupid. And you see. So why did I do that? And it’s just things [00:33:50] in a rush. You don’t check it. And, you know, we don’t have a proper process. And so, so some of [00:33:55] this some a lot of the errors in this is a classic. Atul Gawande talked about this checklist [00:34:00] manifesto where you actually you actually have checklist processes. So so [00:34:05] most of what we, we talk about at PD is, you know, if [00:34:10] you have the right process in place, you will risk manage a lot of these things out.

Speaker1: So if we actually had [00:34:15] a pop up note that said, you know, pink pop up little pink pop up notes now for medical, [00:34:20] uh, medical interactions, you’d see that and you’re thinking, right, I’d see it. Uh, the [00:34:25] nurse would see it and he’d say, are you sure you’re going to prescribe this or whatever? So there wasn’t a system. So [00:34:30] there is a system now, and every time something goes wrong, we respond, [00:34:35] or the profession ought to be responding to actually make sure we learn from [00:34:40] our errors. And that’s kind of this, this whole thing, you know, NHS are interred. Jason Wong’s interred about, [00:34:45] um, about, uh, safety, culture and learning from mistakes. We try desperately [00:34:50] to, as a profession, health care profession, to try and collate all these different problems [00:34:55] and errors, to create solutions which the airline industry does very well and we just do very badly. [00:35:00] So, you know, every one of the mistakes that, that, uh, that has happened [00:35:05] in my practice, I’ve seen over is all possible happen could be happening again and again and again. And people just [00:35:10] don’t put the systems in place, um, to stop it happening. Pretty true.

Speaker3: So I [00:35:15] want to get on to your practice, the story of that. So is [00:35:20] this. Am I right in thinking that? Did I read that this is the only practice you’ve ever worked at?

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:35:25] well, I pretty well I mean, I did, I worked as an associate in other [00:35:30] practice, belonged to the same guy. So when I, when I qualified, I was working as a foundation [00:35:35] dentist in his practice and he owned three practices. So I worked in all three [00:35:40] practice as, as as a VTE and then worked as an associate [00:35:45] at the end of the year, worked as an associate in his practice. And then in that literary [00:35:50] year later he worked in practice. In the year I was doing VTE, he wanted to sell it and he said, did you want to buy [00:35:55] it? Not in my year. So it was literally a couple of years later, so qualified [00:36:00] in finished my in 1990 and then bought it in January [00:36:05] of 93. Um, so were you.

Speaker3: Already married at this [00:36:10] point or. No.

Speaker1: Uh, we, uh, no, I was married in, uh, 1992, [00:36:15] and, and so we bought the well, uh, Anne was [00:36:20] working at the at that actually, she was working at the practice as well, basically at, uh, the, [00:36:25] uh, his practice basically. So the so but we bought the practice, [00:36:30] so bought the practice. Um, we exchanged on the practice on the same day we exchanged on our house. [00:36:35] So it’s a pretty stressful week basically. But but it was um, uh, but at that time it was. [00:36:40] So he sold his share, uh, to me. And there was an existing partner there, Melanie [00:36:45] Wainwright and Shadow Practice in Chelmsford. Eventually she sold that to me. So yeah. So [00:36:50] start off as a as a two therapy practice. But yeah. And funny enough, we celebrated [00:36:55] our 30th anniversary of buying the practice this year earlier this year. So we bought [00:37:00] this 92 not last year. Um, and 93. So last year we was [00:37:05] 30 years and I, and I was saying to somebody saying to somebody, I said, well, if I’d known, [00:37:10] uh, if somebody said to me, you’re going to leave, uh, dental school and you’re going to [00:37:15] stay in the same four walls for the next 30 years, uh, what do you think? [00:37:20] I’d say that’s completely mad. I’m not going to do that. Um, and there I am, standing in those same four walls, [00:37:25] look out the window onto, uh, onto the Woodford tube station. So, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s a it’s a strange, [00:37:30] strange sensation. Strange sensation.

Speaker3: But, uh, you know, I think Cliff talks about it a lot about [00:37:35] being in the same practice for years where you see your own mistakes. Um, and, [00:37:40] I mean, in 30 years, you’ve seen same family, grandchildren and so [00:37:45] forth. Yeah. Um, but but what I’m more interested in is the sort [00:37:50] of the business story, um, okay. What two, two surgery, NHS [00:37:55] practice, was it?

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: And now it’s the same site. Is it [00:38:00] that the same surgery. So what have you done built out and under and up. No African [00:38:05] thinking. Absolutely. Exactly.

Speaker1: So we were on the first floor, [00:38:10] um, and we were renting, paying rent to HSBC. Uh, so [00:38:15] HSBC were downstairs, uh, they had downstairs and they had, they had the basement, which [00:38:20] is the, uh, the safes and the safe deposit boxes. And so we rented off them and then [00:38:25] eventually they, they sold up, um, and then leased it [00:38:30] back off us. So all the banks at that time were, were going, coming off the high street. So [00:38:35] Barclays, NatWest, they’ve all left, they’ve all left. And so what they did was they basically went [00:38:40] to auction, went to a terrifying auction and got the property, [00:38:45] and then they leased it back basically off us. So so they carried on it. So we [00:38:50] got the rent from them. And then eventually three, about four years ago now they [00:38:55] said, right, we’re out here. Basically gave us three months notice and just left. Um, so we end this in this situation [00:39:00] of should we, should we rent out somebody else, uh, and just stay up on [00:39:05] the first? We’re now in the first and second floor. So what we’ve done was so interestingly. So we’re in the first floor, [00:39:10] but we, we, uh, classic, you know, uh, except by stealth, [00:39:15] uh, moved up to the first floor, which is, which was, which was a flat, which is the flat I lived in when [00:39:20] I first moved it, when I joined the practice, which is also one of the main attractions [00:39:25] of the practice, when I applied there, because it meant I didn’t have to go home again after university. [00:39:30] So that was the main attraction. So lived there, moved in with all my mates and then [00:39:35] um, eventually we got married and moved in there and stayed there for about 3 or 4 months before [00:39:40] we bought the house.

Speaker1: But uh, so then eventually converted that into more [00:39:45] surgeries and then so the first and second floor surgeries. And so we had this situation of, you know, [00:39:50] we’re now got this massive building. What are we going to do with it? Do we? [00:39:55] And so in the end we said, okay, there’s nothing more to do. We’re going to have to just go downstairs, gut [00:40:00] the gut downstairs, gut the basement. Uh, and we just have to work out of that. So it [00:40:05] went from four surgeries to seven surgeries in literally one fell swoop, basically. [00:40:10] So it was, um, a big, a big undertaking in terms of [00:40:15] what we do in terms of business, because one of the discussions that I had with the accountants. Uh, was [00:40:20] basically said it’s just going to be a higher growth but more hassle [00:40:25] and probably not much more profit, I think. Okay, well that’s interesting. That’s that. And he’s [00:40:30] absolutely right. But it wasn’t it wasn’t right about the profit because because obviously it worked out okay. Once you’ve [00:40:35] made the investment to to by the by the by the building, you’ve got obviously no rent and [00:40:40] no rent, rent issues. And you can now do exactly what you want to do. So we’ll put central heating in. [00:40:45] We put the whole lot air conditioning, which we would never have done if it wasn’t our building. So it is a [00:40:50] very high respect in terms of the comfort of the place.

Speaker1: And you have control over that. [00:40:55] And I think so. So you know, and then over the but what is what is becoming [00:41:00] more difficult is we then after or during Covid we, we switched [00:41:05] to um, the sessions basically to. So we’ve now so the practice is now open [00:41:10] from seven in the morning till eight in the evening. Um, so it’s now very busy. But [00:41:15] you to matter to, to staff that number of that, that hours [00:41:20] of surgery. You we now have 65 members of staff okay. On one site. So [00:41:25] it’s it is astronomically difficult. So my wife so Ann does an awful lot [00:41:30] basically. So the success of that practice is, is entirely down to for the last ten years because [00:41:35] it you know, it’s not something she spent a huge amount of time. She is the detailed person and [00:41:40] does a huge amount of work to keep that place or keep that place going. We’ve got got two practice managers, [00:41:45] and that’s still not enough because you still need sort of, you know, oversight of all the different people. [00:41:50] And we’ve now sort of moved into sort of specialists and etc., etc., which is kind of the next big thing [00:41:55] we’re trying to do, make sure we’ve got some specialists, um, or got a specialist, um, [00:42:00] evening in a few weeks time. We’ve got a CT scan, we’ve got itero, intraoral [00:42:05] scanners and stuff like so, so, so that, you know, it’s it’s an undertaking in itself, [00:42:10] but it’s worked out because it’s a family practice. You know, people come back again and [00:42:15] again and again. Um, how.

Speaker3: Did you feel these other chairs?

Speaker1: Um, [00:42:20] it’s just organically because because, you know, we we’ve done it [00:42:25] for 20 years, and often the foundation dentist would [00:42:30] stay. If we like them, we keep them on and then we build another, put them into another surgery [00:42:35] and off we go again. And so one of the beauties of the practice largely is built [00:42:40] by built on the backs of people who understand the values, the [00:42:45] what we believe in. So the PhDs arrive, they understand the system, [00:42:50] they understand how we operate, and they stay because they like it. And and sometimes people coming [00:42:55] from a different practice just don’t get the ethos. And it takes them some time to understand what we’re up to while [00:43:00] we’re doing things. We’re not actually about generating shedloads of money off patients because our views very much, [00:43:05] they’re going to be for the long terme. We want to work with you for the next ten, 15, 20 years. We don’t need to [00:43:10] sell you a shedload of stuff in the first first visit. And sometimes dentists don’t get that. [00:43:15] And there’s a there’s a bit of frustration for us and for them to say it’s not how we work. Basically [00:43:20] it’s a different, different mode of operation here. So and, you know, they, they uh, the [00:43:25] practice is built up on, you know, I think for most practices, every single practice in the [00:43:30] country, it’s reputation, every business, it’s reputation, it’s trust. Uh, those are sort of two words [00:43:35] that most companies, businesses, it’s all about trust and reputations. And as long as you [00:43:40] you do your best to maintain that trust, the reputation will follow.

Speaker3: Basically, I think [00:43:45] look, the the model that you’re doing is I’ve seen some of the most successful [00:43:50] practices I’ve ever come across are that model because 65 [00:43:55] humans I mean there’s that could have been you could have been [00:44:00] it could have been a vanity metric here of eight practices. Yeah, [00:44:05] could have been. I mean, there’s many practices with 7 or 8 people [00:44:10] and running it 7 to 8. I accept that that’s [00:44:15] a HR nightmare, because you’ve got to persuade one whole [00:44:20] group of people to work till 8 p.m.. Yeah, but which actually I think that would be one of those [00:44:25] times personally. Um, but I hear often young dentists, I say I want a chain [00:44:30] of practices or something. Actually, if I, if I was going to do it myself, [00:44:35] this building that you can expand, it seems like a much more [00:44:40] efficient way of delivering volume.

Speaker1: Yeah. Because you’ve just got [00:44:45] because all you’re going to do is you’re going to you’re going to replicate those same systems [00:44:50] again and again and again. And actually that doesn’t necessarily generate more profit because because the profit [00:44:55] comes from the, uh, from the from the people doing the treatment. Basically, [00:45:00] it doesn’t have to be in a different site. And because and all you’ve got is more hassle, um, with these different sites, with the [00:45:05] different, um, managers, uh, different managers, different configuration, different type of patients. And so [00:45:10] we know the type of patients we attract, the sort of patients we want to want to keep. And, and [00:45:15] I you know, we often say you get the patients you deserve because if the patients are like [00:45:20] you and they trust you, they’ll refer their friends. And their friends are probably nice people, too. So you [00:45:25] get that build up of patients basically. And and I think, you know, that’s that’s probably [00:45:30] the most exciting thing about it is actually seeing that that grow. And, you know, somebody said, oh, you know, [00:45:35] you know, when are you going to retire? When are you going to sell the practice? And I’m thinking, actually, I’m not so sure I do want to [00:45:40] retire. I’m not sure what I could do with my time retiring, basically, but also the fact that we’ve [00:45:45] still got more to do.

Speaker1: I mean, we’d love to, you know, build up that the specialists and [00:45:50] and take referrals and stuff and, and I know that’s the most challenging thing to do now. Ten years [00:45:55] ago wouldn’t have been because nobody had specialists. Now everybody’s got a specialist operating [00:46:00] out of their practice, their part time. So so having a even a referral practice is challenging. But [00:46:05] because everybody now has a specialist coming to their practice, so us trying to attract [00:46:10] business from elsewhere is not is not going to be straightforward. But we’ve got enough patients of our [00:46:15] own to generate what we need to do. So our orthodontist is busy. He’s booked up 3 or 4 months. [00:46:20] The endodontist is busy, periodontist is busy. So so they are busy in their own right, [00:46:25] and you’d like them to be more busy. But you know, it’s it’s working off the back of our own patients. So [00:46:30] yeah. So you know as a model and the, the other concept for us is it’s, it is still [00:46:35] a mixed NHS and private practice. Um, and we’ve survived probably the best [00:46:40] part of 3 or 4 recessions over the last 30 years because we’re an NHS practice and people still [00:46:45] need their teeth doing.

Speaker1: And and for me it’s just a personal thing I do want to [00:46:50] give. I do want to give back to to the NHS that it has provided me with a great living [00:46:55] and great income, but and a good lifestyle. But, you know, and when I talk [00:47:00] to, uh, lots of people in our practice plan, they’ll be on various panels and they say, you’ve got [00:47:05] to you’ve got to move, you’ve got to move them. You know, it’s all over and thinking, yeah, I know I’m maybe [00:47:10] a bit of a dinosaur in still thinking the NHS is it’s not, it’s not functional, [00:47:15] basically. But in a sense there is. I just feel a sense of duty towards those [00:47:20] patients and some of our dentists, some of our staff members also think that actually we [00:47:25] do owe to those people. There’s lots of people that can’t afford private dentistry. They can just about afford NHS dentistry, let alone private [00:47:30] dentistry and what we can do with those patients. So and they’ve been with us for many, many years. So [00:47:35] I think there is some sense of community and wanting to be, to be part of that, that, [00:47:40] um, that, that service, that community, not just dump them all as they’re very private. [00:47:45]

Speaker3: I understand it. Um, of course I do. But [00:47:50] at the same time. I hated the third party involvement, [00:47:55] you know. Hated it. It is. I did my feet [00:48:00] and just like never again. Never do I want a third party to tell me anything. Yeah, [00:48:05] and I think the patient.

Speaker1: Yeah. And I think that’s that’s true. You know, increasingly, [00:48:10] you know, it’s the it’s the tail wagging the dog because we have so much, um, restrictions [00:48:15] because of the NHS and we’re, you know, we’re chasing udhas for the sake of chasing us. And [00:48:20] it takes up an inordinate amount of time to do those gdas to get to that, to hit that delivery, thinking, [00:48:25] why am I wasting my time doing this? So for, you know, a we can [00:48:30] spend our time seeing the seeing private patients. Um, so yeah, I think there’s, there’s a conflict in our, [00:48:35] in our own heads. Let’s.

Speaker3: Let’s imagine, for the sake of the argument that the friendly [00:48:40] Russian billionaire came and gave you $1 billion for your practice, what would [00:48:45] you do? What do you do next?

Speaker1: Uh, yeah, I’d probably. Yeah, I’d [00:48:50] what I would. I still see patients possibly, but but I mean I well, [00:48:55] the two things I’d like to carry on doing is, is this job, uh, the indemnity as this, [00:49:00] there’s so much more still to be done to get this, to get the policy wording, to get everything [00:49:05] as good as I possibly could. I’d like to, uh, I’ve been doing got back into photography [00:49:10] quite a bit, and I’ve done I’m in the middle of doing a photography diploma, um, and, [00:49:15] um, and I and I and I’ve, I’ve just been, I’ve just literally [00:49:20] taken two weeks time going to Scotland on a landscape photography workshop. I’ve just done the [00:49:25] last couple of months down to Dorset to Land’s End, Peak District, basically. [00:49:30] So, um, there’s a couple of people that follow. They do some workshops, which is great fun. Um, [00:49:35] and then and then up to Scotland, the freezing cold and north, uh, in Inverness. Yeah. [00:49:40] So I and I’d love to do that sort of stuff. I’ve trying to persuade my wife that, [00:49:45] you know, to get converting downstairs to a, to a dental surgery. So we’re not just dental studio, which [00:49:50] is. Are you. Are you kidding me? Well, how much money do you think you’re going to earn out of a out of a studio [00:49:55] in comparison to a dental chair? Okay. Fair enough. Um, so. Yeah. So that would be a [00:50:00] fun, a fun thing to do. But yeah, I think I think for me.

Speaker3: How many days do you actually, [00:50:05] uh, clinical do clinical?

Speaker1: Clinical. Two days a week. Two days. So, so the Wednesday Thursday. [00:50:10] Seven till seven. One till two in the afternoon. So seven hour days and the Wednesday seven hour days and [00:50:15] Thursday. Um, so it gives me sort of free time in three days and indemnity [00:50:20] and.

Speaker3: Clinically what’s your sort of treatments that you like to do and don’t like to do.

Speaker1: Um [00:50:25] I so increasingly I’m doing less and less invasive treatment basically. So [00:50:30] if, if somebody I could specialise in uh, lower right six buccal [00:50:35] composites quite easily basically because, because it’s going to be the simplest straightforward sort of thing. So, [00:50:40] so I, so, you know, we now have, uh, dentists who do, uh, you know, [00:50:45] difficult extraction spaces. I’m thinking. Right, what you know, and doing endo and thinking, why am I going to do [00:50:50] an endo for you privately or even on the NHS when there’s somebody in this room who could do this far [00:50:55] better? In fact, sitting over there is a microscope, you know, why am I going to? Why am I going to if I can, [00:51:00] if I can do if you can, if you allow me, if you allow this density [00:51:05] to, to work, you’d be better off. And they’ll say to me, oh, you’ve done the work before. I said, yeah, but I now have a specialist [00:51:10] in the practice who can do a far better job. You want some predictability? That’s great. So. So I’m happy to do endo [00:51:15] crowns. Bridges. Um, uh, I used to do a lot of. I [00:51:20] used to do a lot of ortho. Um, we now have an orthodontist in the practice, and so I’ve stopped doing that [00:51:25] and don’t do implants or do all surgery. And so [00:51:30] we’ve got the hygienist element of the practice is, is, is bizarre [00:51:35] because we’ve actually got we actually got I mean, we’ve got we’ve got eight hygienists in the practice. [00:51:40] Um, and there’s basically two days, there’s two, two [00:51:45] in every single day basically.

Speaker1: Um, maybe more. And it just it just worked out that way. You know, the, the [00:51:50] hygienist, uh, is a great part of the, um, the [00:51:55] health environment delivering that for the, for the patients. Patients love it. It’s working very well. [00:52:00] And and so, so building building on those foundations is, is really nice to [00:52:05] be able to work in that environment. So the hygienist services is, is is worked very well. [00:52:10] So yeah. So it’s and I think the difficulty and what that then generates [00:52:15] is you actually have specific hygienist meetings. You have specific dentist [00:52:20] meetings, you have specific nurses meetings. And so the hygienist feel as though they’re part of the [00:52:25] team. And because often the hygiene say I work in another practice, I’m on my own now. I come [00:52:30] in, I do, I do my hygiene work, I go upstairs, I do my own, uh, decontamination, [00:52:35] come downstairs and I go home. I don’t see anybody else. There is another hygienist, but we [00:52:40] never cross paths and I think so. So for them, it’s actually quite a really good, lively [00:52:45] sort of atmosphere to, for us to have hygienist meetings. Uh, and, you know, every quarter [00:52:50] and they, they get then you know, they as a, as a, as a cartel [00:52:55] if you want, they get what they want. If you tell us what you want, we’ll do it. You know, you are clinicians, [00:53:00] and you’re right. Uh, we’re more than happy to support you because you’re doing a fantastic job.

Speaker3: And what’s your involvement [00:53:05] with the practice other than the clinical? Do you do anything else or do you act more like an associate? [00:53:10]

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s. Yeah. What if I was [00:53:15] if I was generating money for myself as a as a as an associate, I’d probably just be able to afford [00:53:20] a kebab on the way home basically. Because. Because it’s not it’s not a huge because because the two [00:53:25] things. One is I end up, um, so a lot of regular patients who’ve been seeing. So there’s not a huge we’re [00:53:30] not doing a huge amount of treatment on these patients. And also, yeah, also having to pick up every so often [00:53:35] the patients who uh, the one you know not to be each attempt [00:53:40] is refused to see the patients. So inevitably they end up with me saying, right, okay, fine, I’ll see this patient. Um, and [00:53:45] so that that’s fine. And, and for me, you know, and it’s something I, I [00:53:50] never chased the money. The money, just money just came basically. So, so I kind of act as an associate, and [00:53:55] my wife does an awful lot of the and as an awful lot of the sort of the, the [00:54:00] oversight of it. Um, so I used to do that around when the kids were young. She was at home, [00:54:05] but she’s kind of taken over, uh, the vast majority. And I think that’s that is actually quite stressful for [00:54:10] her.

Speaker1: Um, because she kind of does, obviously, she does her own two days of, of clinical work. [00:54:15] Uh, and she’s also running the practice the rest of the time. She does pretty well. A lot of the stuff she’s [00:54:20] doing, she does all the wages for the associates, the other wage for the for the staff, which is a, you know, literally [00:54:25] four days every month is, is, is doing just that, basically, uh, in addition to organising [00:54:30] all the meetings and stuff. So, so I think she’s, um, you know, and I think that’s probably [00:54:35] more tiring. She actually enjoys the clinical dentistry. She’s she doesn’t want to give it up because she enjoys it so much. Um, [00:54:40] that’s the relief from, from the, the hard admin work and the running the practice. So [00:54:45] she’s really made a huge contribution that the practice wouldn’t be what it is with without her basically. So I’m kind of [00:54:50] dropping it out there and it when she says, well, you’re a useful figurehead in the practice. [00:54:55] Um, uh, but but it allows, you know, and we, we have different sort of styles [00:55:00] of managing the practice and managing those meetings. It’s also, uh, quite useful. Um, [00:55:05] so, so yeah.

Speaker3: We’re coming to the end of our time, but I want to touch on one other thing [00:55:10] before we move on to the final questions. Is this question of sort of getting involved? Yeah. [00:55:15] With stuff.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s an.

Speaker3: Active process, right? It’s not. It doesn’t [00:55:20] happen by mistake that you do all the list of things that that I listed at the beginning. It’s [00:55:25] an active process of seeking out, wanting to get your hands dirty and and I don’t know, maybe [00:55:30] maybe I’m being a bit like, uh, characterising it incorrectly, but I feel like [00:55:35] I, I’ve noticed this with, with, uh, Kenyans in particular. Um, [00:55:40] there’s a sense of community or something that everyone, you know, I’ve had several. [00:55:45] I mean, we talk about true and um, one one of my favourite episodes we’ve [00:55:50] ever done on this pod is, uh, Vishal Vishal Shah. But but tell me about that. You know, [00:55:55] because I feel like I do the opposite. I actively try and get away from boards [00:56:00] of things and.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s funny. I mean, I think [00:56:05] the, I suppose one of the drivers when I was a kid [00:56:10] wasn’t, it was actually it was actually the A level that did it because I realised that I had [00:56:15] to do physics, uh, for A level. But I was actually hopeless at it. And, and it was [00:56:20] this classic thing where you’d be sitting in a physics class, uh, the guy would put up the problem, basically, [00:56:25] and I’d just be reading it and somebody put their hand up and they said, they know the answer. I’m thinking, I haven’t even [00:56:30] read the question. What are you doing? Okay, so people just exceptionally bright and very good at what they do. And [00:56:35] I and I vowed, I said, all I want to do is to be good at something, to be to be good at that [00:56:40] and be known for being good at it. And my my wife is always winding me up about that because you just [00:56:45] want to be famous and I don’t want to be famous. I just want to be good at something so I can feel that actually I’ve achieved [00:56:50] something because. Because for the whole of those two years, um, uh, in those classes, [00:56:55] I just felt like a complete idiot, basically thinking, right, you know, I’m just useless. I know I’m going to fail [00:57:00] no matter how many times I’m up past papers that I know. I feel like.

Speaker3: You’re quite black and white. Like, [00:57:05] I feel like if you don’t know 100% of it, you feel like. You know none of it. Yeah, something like [00:57:10] that.

Speaker1: Yeah, that is true. Absolutely. Because because when I, when I do it, I want to be sure I’ve [00:57:15] done it well and, and get involved in it. So which is why the law degree when I did it [00:57:20] um, all these other sort of post-grad qualification, the teaching, I just have to make sure I know enough about [00:57:25] this to be confident that I can do it. But did mentoring did a whole lot, of course. Because because because [00:57:30] I didn’t want to. Part of is also thinking, I’m not going to know this unless I study about it. [00:57:35] I don’t I don’t have the discipline to just read around the subject. I know people will now rely on YouTube’s [00:57:40] and YouTube and TikTok and stuff like that, thinking it’s the same as photography. I mean, I could [00:57:45] quite easily just download a shedload of YouTube videos and watch it and learn myself [00:57:50] and teach myself. And yes, I could, but actually what I’ve what I’ve got from this formal [00:57:55] education of things diploma is actually I would never have learnt about the history of photography and [00:58:00] learnt about the origins of it and what these particular photographers have done, because it wouldn’t be part [00:58:05] of, uh, anything I undertook on YouTube.

Speaker1: But actually I’ve learnt an awful lot from it and actually got [00:58:10] there’s a discipline about learning in a sort of structured way, and that’s, that’s probably just me. In [00:58:15] order to learn those things and be confident about it, there has to be a sort of structure, structured approach to it, [00:58:20] and it’s postgraduate certificate, diploma, masters, whatever. That’s that’s just the way [00:58:25] I learn, because I can’t rely on myself to say, all right, okay, I’m going to do this and I’m just going to do this without, [00:58:30] without, without sort of, sort of some sort of formal thing. I did it, you know, rather being able [00:58:35] to did an Open University course, um, an Arts Foundation course, because I think I actually want to [00:58:40] know about this stuff, but I wanted to do in a formal way. So there’s something probably controlling it. [00:58:45] May be it may be a maybe a go and maybe a Kenyan mentality, but it certainly is something that I think, you [00:58:50] know, driven partly by my dad saying, you know, you need a bit of courtesy, you need you a bit of [00:58:55] paper. And that’s kind of probably prompted most of my sort of driving my [00:59:00] what I describe as my drive, basically.

Speaker3: How much of your identity [00:59:05] is going to feel going?

Speaker1: Yeah. Interestingly, [00:59:10] it’s because obviously I’ve married an Irish girl. Um, you’re both Catholics, [00:59:15] you were telling me, but yeah, both Catholics, um, um, you know, my [00:59:20] fairly religious sort of background, my, my, my mum’s side, there was three [00:59:25] nuns and three priests. So it’s pretty religious. On Anne’s side [00:59:30] there is, there is one nun. So it’s fairly sort of it’s not it’s not [00:59:35] rammed down our kids throats and they go to church up until they were sort of got, you know, [00:59:40] baptised commune till they were younger. And it’s up to you if you want to go to church now, we’ve set it out for you. So, so [00:59:45] there is um, in terms of being going, I think, I think I’m [00:59:50] the problem with the diaspora to go and diaspora is it’s not [00:59:55] as embedded as, say, any other sort of parts of India or Pakistan [01:00:00] or Southeast Asia, because there is a language, we hardly ever use the language. Um, so [01:00:05] there’s no sort of Konkani is the common language, but it’s never used as much as it could have been used, basically. [01:00:10] Um, so, so yeah, I think it’s I do feel I [01:00:15] could be more and the kids are obviously, you know, half Irish, half going, um, but [01:00:20] they understand both sides of it. Do they.

Speaker3: Um, to. [01:00:25] Well I’m doing.

Speaker1: She is going.

Speaker3: Go, go in Kenya. [01:00:30]

Speaker1: Uh, I think she is. And then there is, there’s a lucky for you.

Speaker3: Yeah. [01:00:35]

Speaker1: Yeah, there is. I know there is. It’s not not not a good look. Exactly. Not a good look. Exactly, [01:00:40] exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Let’s get on to our final questions. Yeah. [01:00:45] Let’s start with the fantasy dinner party. Yeah. Three guests, [01:00:50] dead or alive. Three guests. Who would you have? Okay.

Speaker1: Okay. Uh, this might sound a bit left field. [01:00:55] Um, but it’s it’s going to be Madhur Jaffrey. Okay. The the Indian [01:01:00] cook. And I’m not sure anybody else has mentioned there before. No. She’s dead. She’s dead. [01:01:05] Okay, so it’s sounds like and I think, um, partly because, well, she’s [01:01:10] going to make the dinner. It’s going to be a great dinner party because she’s great.

Speaker3: Okay. She’s gonna she’s gonna [01:01:15] cook.

Speaker1: The dinner for us, basically. Um, but there are a couple of reasons for that. One is, [01:01:20] um, my mother was an amazing cook. She’s still around, but she’s, uh, [01:01:25] she’s an she’s an amazing cook. When we, um, we arrived in England. What is interesting [01:01:30] is that. And she could turn her hand to to most things to Indian, Chinese, modern [01:01:35] European. And I kind of watched her cook, um, as she grew up. And it was I. My [01:01:40] passion for cooking comes from her, and I love cooking. Now I really well, now I do most of the sort [01:01:45] of cooking at home basically. But but but the interesting thing about, uh, Madhur [01:01:50] Jaffrey was that she was she did a BBC book back in the, [01:01:55] you know, back in the early 80s when you wouldn’t be able to find you wouldn’t find coriander, [01:02:00] you wouldn’t find any spices at all, anywhere, anywhere, anywhere in England. [01:02:05] And she actually created this sort of this whole culture of Indian food. Bbc television [01:02:10] had a book, um, called Madhur Jaffrey Indian Cooking, and then their classic [01:02:15] was Flavours of India and India. Actually, there’s, there’s funny enough was looking at it the other day [01:02:20] and there’s a huge amount of go and cooking in there, which again, you know, there’s [01:02:25] a couple of dishes, um, which are sort of pork dishes which, which was handed down from my [01:02:30] mum to me, um, which was used basically. And there’s some fantastic recipes in there. So, so that [01:02:35] was, you know, and for me, you know, this, this being an immigrant family being brought up [01:02:40] on Indian cooking is just, just great. Um, uh, she kind of made it popular. And, [01:02:45] you know, you’re now you can walk into any store and you’ll find pretty well, you can [01:02:50] find go and pastes basically go and go and food in there, which you would never have done, you know, 20, [01:02:55] 25 years ago. So, so, so, so she’s, she’s in there for partly because of my mum, [01:03:00] but partly because she’s going to make a good, good meal for us when we get there.

Speaker3: Who’s [01:03:05] your second guest?

Speaker1: Second guest. Uh, would be Frederick Forsyth. Uh, [01:03:10] he’s an author. He’s not exactly high brow, but he was kind of the the first [01:03:15] author, uh, first book that I read or first? First real book I read when [01:03:20] I was a kid. Uh, probably, uh, you know what, 11, 12 years old? He wrote that. So the the Odessa [01:03:25] file, which was this story about this guy chasing Nazi war criminals, then got me interested in [01:03:30] in the whole thing about the Holocaust was about death, a jackal. The assassination attempts on Charles [01:03:35] de Gaulle, uh, dogs of war, all these sort of classic books. And I sort of read and so I so [01:03:40] it’s a classic sort of thing. And probably one of the few authors that I’ve read 2 or 3 times who read the book a couple [01:03:45] of times when I was a kid, I probably wouldn’t have time to read books twice again, but I did then, [01:03:50] and that sort of got me into. So he his his genre was very much weaving [01:03:55] fiction through real life people. So the whole thing about The Day of the Jackal was Charles [01:04:00] de Gaulle had had several assassination attempts on him, and he just weaved this sort of fictional [01:04:05] character that was going to attempt an assassination on him, again, based on sort of meticulous research. And [01:04:10] I kind of got. So the writing is fantastic. It’s not a, you know, it’s not a high [01:04:15] brow author. But actually, that got me into reading, got me into, uh, into writing, wanting to write myself. [01:04:20] Um, and that’s kind of in a sense, the that whole connection with, [01:04:25] um, with English came from that. And, and obviously obviously they [01:04:30] were O-levels and A-levels and did Thomas Hardy and all the other stuff.

Speaker1: But but of course I it would be a good guess. [01:04:35] And, and for me, the, the reason why I ended up at Dental protection was because [01:04:40] I wrote an awful lot when I, as soon as I, um, was out in the out [01:04:45] of dental school, I was writing a lot, got got 2 or 3 articles published in the age. I had written [01:04:50] stuff in in as it was the probe magazine thing. And people want [01:04:55] people who could write, uh, and I was and I was therefore high profile. And the interesting thing you [01:05:00] can get to be high profile now very quickly, um, without doing much, without much effort, because [01:05:05] of Instagram, because the social media, back in those days to be noticed in the profession, you had to work really [01:05:10] hard. It wasn’t an easy thing to be recognised. You did, you know, you did the lecture circuit. You did, [01:05:15] uh, you know, six, three, six, three courses. You did a whole lot of stuff before anybody recognised you. And in [01:05:20] a sense that’s, you know, when I talk to we talk about garage writing about this a lot. The thing, [01:05:25] you know, where do these people come from? Suddenly out of the blue, they’re. They become really famous for thinking, where’s your hard [01:05:30] rock? Where’s all the hard grind that you and I had to do? I think, yeah, that’s that’s life kind of thing. But [01:05:35] I think that’s that’s kind of, uh, this idea that, um, it’s, you know, I [01:05:40] got the interesting writing and that’s kind of got me where I, where I got to for various reasons, basically [01:05:45] of the English to dentistry and then and then writing for the dental protection. [01:05:50] It’s a.

Speaker3: Brilliant point. It’s a brilliant point. I mean, people forget even Pre-social, I think, [01:05:55] I think FMC had a lot to do with it. Yeah. If you remember [01:06:00] pre FMC, do you remember pre FMC? I did yeah yeah I was very early but [01:06:05] I mean when FMC that that do you remember it was called independent seminars [01:06:10] or something. Yeah. Yeah that had a big part in in in making people [01:06:15] famous. And then, and then they weaved it into the magazines. Yeah. [01:06:20] But before that you’re quite right. I mean, you had to be a professor or something. [01:06:25] You had to be. You had to really work hard to bring it up and down the country. Well, [01:06:30] it’s interesting, you see.

Speaker1: Funny because I remember I used to write for the probe. Yeah. Um, and [01:06:35] there was, there was it’s called basically it was a called a stringer. Basically, if you wanted to, [01:06:40] uh, if there was a course on, they would send you along to it for free and you’d [01:06:45] write it up in the probe. Okay. And I remember and then Ken Finlayson turned up [01:06:50] and I actually met him in my surgery. He came to meet me and he said, you know, you’re obviously a bit of a writer. [01:06:55] You don’t want to do this. You want to join that. And I remember being on the editorial board of the early, uh, [01:07:00] early magazines for Ken and getting to him quite well. And then obviously he’s [01:07:05] obviously done various other things basically. And, and, and I think that sort of celebrity [01:07:10] you have to celebrity stuff came out of that. And then obviously then social media came along. And you know, [01:07:15] it is interesting that the but people still will remember, you know, Roger [01:07:20] and Kevin Lewis, but the older generation will the younger people never heard of these [01:07:25] people at all. And I could walk into a room now and I’d look around thinking, nobody knows me, um, [01:07:30] I don’t know them. And whereas whereas an older generation would know me, would [01:07:35] know Raj, would know Kevin, etc., etc. so it is, it’s it’s a it’s a different world. Definitely a different world. [01:07:40]

Speaker3: The third guest.

Speaker1: Third guest, um, guy called Martin [01:07:45] Seligman. Uh, Martin Seligman is a an American psychologist. [01:07:50] Um, he was he was at Princeton. Uh, and he’s a University of Pennsylvania. His book [01:07:55] is called Authentic Happiness and is probably the most influential book I’ve ever read. [01:08:00] Probably, uh, quite a few years ago, about 2002. And I read about 12 years [01:08:05] ago, and it kind of changed my whole whole perspective on what he [01:08:10] described as what’s called positive psychology. And it talked about happiness when people [01:08:15] weren’t talking about happiness. And the whole concept of positive psychology is he he is a psychologist [01:08:20] himself. And he said, why are psychologists spending all their time looking after ill people [01:08:25] when they are trying to make them better? So surely they must know what’s good for people. And [01:08:30] while we spend our time using the the same stories and the same [01:08:35] techniques to get people to be happy. And so he was kind of [01:08:40] use this scientific method to explore happiness in his book. And authentic happiness is just a classic [01:08:45] in terms of the science, the literature behind it and the creating [01:08:50] this meaning and purpose and and the whole concept, pleasure and gratification, I thought. And one of the things [01:08:55] that that stuck in my mind from that book was that happiness is a choice, and [01:09:00] that 50% of your happiness is actually determined by your DNA. It’s from your parents. [01:09:05] Okay, so if your parents were pretty grumpy and pretty miserable, well, you’d like to be pretty grumpy [01:09:10] and miserable yourself. Uh, 10% by circumstance and 40%, uh, is [01:09:15] your internal state of mind basically how you how you perceive things? Uh, that’s um, and how [01:09:20] you manage your, your everyday life. And I thought for me, that was a pretty seminal book in terms [01:09:25] of how I looked at how you’d approach things. And I remember reading it and just [01:09:30] literally, uh, reading it that that one I did read 2 or 3 times, and I remember just quoting [01:09:35] stuff to my kids left, right and centre, bored, rigid, basically. Uh, but yeah, it’s that [01:09:40] that certainly was, uh, I think it’d be a very interesting guest at our party.

Speaker3: Excellent, [01:09:45] excellent. Positive psychology. What’s what’s it called?

Speaker1: It’s [01:09:50] called authentic happiness.

Speaker3: Authentic positive.

Speaker1: Psychology. Yeah. Fields positive psychology. His [01:09:55] book is called Authentic Happiness. Um. Martin Seligman. Yeah. It’s interesting [01:10:00] guy.

Speaker3: And the final question. Yeah. Deathbed question. [01:10:05] On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, [01:10:10] friends and family. By that time, hopefully grandchildren. Great grandchildren. [01:10:15] Yeah. She had to give him three pieces of wisdom, three pieces of advice. What [01:10:20] would they be?

Speaker1: Um, we kind of alluded to this. The first one would be [01:10:25] to say yes, when somebody asks you to do something as part of your job, your career, [01:10:30] you just say yes, because and that’s kind of in answer to your question, why did you get involved [01:10:35] in all those things? Because somebody said, why don’t you join the LDC? Why don’t you join the young dentist committee? [01:10:40] Why don’t you do this? And you’re thinking, yeah, okay, you know, I’ll do that. And, you know, I said yes. And [01:10:45] I was saying yes in my early parts of my career, when lots of people were just getting [01:10:50] their head down and doing a lot of dentistry and being an associate. And I said, so I was working on [01:10:55] local LDC young Dentist committee and then set up the first National Young Dentist [01:11:00] committee, the BDA, and spent literally a year going backwards and forwards, trying to convince, as it was the [01:11:05] board of directors, that the usefulness, as they said, well, we shouldn’t split young dentists up, etc., etc. [01:11:10] and I spent a whole year so I was going backwards and forwards. So that year I probably lost a lot of [01:11:15] income going backwards and forwards to the BDA. And you know, my wife would say, why are you [01:11:20] doing this? You know, less and less than I am. What are you doing? And actually all [01:11:25] those investments and time and effort saying yes will pay dividends in your [01:11:30] profession, your career. So that would be my first bit of advice.

Speaker3: Then say yes. Do you think, though, that it [01:11:35] goes back one one step earlier than that and, [01:11:40] you know, to be asked to do x, y and Z, you have to be a particular [01:11:45] cat.

Speaker1: Um, because. Yeah.

Speaker3: Because I’m being asked to do [01:11:50] x, Y and Z. Do you see. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah I agree, I agree.

Speaker1: Yeah yeah yeah I agree I agree there [01:11:55] is. Yeah there is some of course. Yeah yeah there is some element to that because you’re, [01:12:00] you’re right. Because there are some people that I wouldn’t ask I wouldn’t ask basically. Yeah. Yeah you’re right. Yeah [01:12:05] you’re right. And so if they say yes, I don’t want them to say yes. No I yeah there, [01:12:10] there is that point. That’s why I didn’t take that. Yeah.

Speaker3: What’s the second piece of advice.

Speaker1: Second [01:12:15] piece of advice is again something related to the Leaders who tried to be an expert in something. [01:12:20] Uh, it might be your career. It might be your hobby. It might be a period of of history [01:12:25] literature. If it’s your job and you’re good at it, the money will come. And I [01:12:30] think this, this, this idea of, uh, you know, this, this idea of happiness comes from, you know, you being [01:12:35] fulfilled. And so if you’re enjoying it, you know, be an expert at it. And it happens to be you’re an expert in your [01:12:40] job, great. You’ll enjoy it even more. You get a huge amount of self-fulfilment from it. And [01:12:45] it’s just that, you know, that bit of that carrot is talking about, you’ve got your bit of character that proves [01:12:50] your expert, proves it to yourself and proves it to other people. Um, so my advice, advice already [01:12:55] to my kids is, you know, try and be an expert, get you a bit of paper, nobody can take it away from you. And we’ll [01:13:00] always have that with you. The, the last bit of advice in all of that, despite all [01:13:05] that saying, be humble because you know about your achievements and be kind to others. So [01:13:10] I think it sounds like a bit of a cliche, but but actually and to a certain [01:13:15] extent, my, my disadvantage is, is is not [01:13:20] shouting from the rooftops and being humble, and often it goes against the grain of social media. [01:13:25] It goes against the grain of Instagram when people are shouting from the rooftops about [01:13:30] their wards, about this, that and the other and and finally I, Faraj and I regret and I [01:13:35] were talking about this the other day.

Speaker1: You know what? What do I what do you and what is he and what do I put on your [01:13:40] title slide of your PowerPoint presentation? Do you put landcruisin [01:13:45] all your qualifications? Do you put Rajaratnam, etc., etc.? No, [01:13:50] I don’t and I don’t either. So he says, well, everybody else does. So why aren’t we? I’m thinking [01:13:55] I feel a bit uncomfortable. And he said, well, the point is that unless people know who we [01:14:00] are, unless we tell them who we are, they’re not going to think we’re credible. Okay. So so I thought it was [01:14:05] an interesting, interesting concept where where actually self promotion [01:14:10] is not something I do particularly well or comfortable with. But actually in this [01:14:15] world of social media and Instagram and all the other things, [01:14:20] actually being humble doesn’t necessarily cut it in that sense. So, [01:14:25] so actually it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a double edged sword. But I think people would respect you [01:14:30] more if you are humble and you are you don’t boast about your achievements. Just crack on. [01:14:35] And there’s lots of things about other people I don’t know about because they don’t tell me about it. And then suddenly you discover, you think, oh God, [01:14:40] okay, well that’s amazing. I didn’t know that. Why didn’t you? Why didn’t you tell me that? So, yeah. There. [01:14:45] Is that so? So those are the three bits that I give.

Speaker3: Uh, then [01:14:50] I see you as a bit of a, like a, like a enigma, [01:14:55] right? Because much of what you’ve said has been around [01:15:00] sort of. Or having met you as well. Yeah. Much of much of what you do is around [01:15:05] wanting to know the full story. Right. That 100% has sort of and I would characterise [01:15:10] that as as kind of a black and white kind of person, someone who’d have strong views. [01:15:15] And yet when you talk about things, you talk about them with such nuance [01:15:20] and with with so much humbleness that, you know, humility or humility, [01:15:25] it’s just it’s surprising. It’s surprising, you know, you it’s [01:15:30] a nice thing. It’s a nice thing to see. And it goes to the to the point that, you know, things are [01:15:35] not as simple as one plus one equals two when it comes to human beings. You know, [01:15:40] we’re nuanced. We’ve got lots of different angles about us. It’s [01:15:45] been a fantastic course. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for doing this. It’s been a massive honour to have [01:15:50] you here.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, [01:15:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:16:00] in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:16:05] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker4: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:16:10] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:16:15] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [01:16:20] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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