Speaker1: I very much view breathwork as sort of the the thing I teach [00:00:05] and the thing I talk about, but actually let’s, you know, I work with a 1 to 1 client. I’m talking [00:00:10] to them about their mindset, their past, their childhood. I’m talking to [00:00:15] them about mainly we’re talking through the lens of the nervous system. So that’s I would view [00:00:20] the work as really working with the nervous system, which is where ice baths start to come in, where other practices start to [00:00:25] come in, and the concept of rest, the concept of resilience, all of this stuff, it’s sort of breath [00:00:30] as a gateway into a much broader conversation around the nervous system.

Speaker2: This [00:00:35] is mind movers. Moving [00:00:40] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:00:45] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman [00:00:50] Langroudi.

Speaker3: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Mind [00:00:55] Movers. Today we have a very good friend of mine, Jamie Clements. Jamie Clements, if [00:01:00] you haven’t heard of him, where have you been? Because he has owned the breathwork space. He [00:01:05] is the CEO and founder of The Breath Space. He is [00:01:10] somebody that integrates breathwork into daily life, daily practice, and also works [00:01:15] with altered states of consciousness, creating a better life for people. I [00:01:20] met Jamie on a retreat. I had one on one sessions with him as well. He also used enlighten and loved [00:01:25] it. Excellent. And Jamie has really inspired [00:01:30] me in my own practice. But thinking about breathwork and dentistry, which we’re [00:01:35] going to cover as well, but in a very we’re going to go off piece today [00:01:40] and we’re going to do a guided breathwork session together. So for anyone that hasn’t tried this, [00:01:45] I really encourage you to join in on us. Try not to breathe too heavily Payman, because I don’t [00:01:50] know what he’s going to be like with this. So Jamie’s going to guide us through a couple of minutes of breathwork, and then we’re going to get into [00:01:55] it.

Speaker1: Yeah. Thank you. Ronan. Thank you for having me. It’s, uh. Yeah, it’s a pleasure to be here. And [00:02:00] as you said, I was, uh, actually on a podcast a couple of weeks ago where we did this, and it just [00:02:05] changed the trajectory of the conversation. I sort of arrived to that recording a little bit frantic, [00:02:10] a little bit hectic going. I just need a moment to centre. And we did literally two minutes of breathwork, [00:02:15] which was almost a perfect window into the power of this work as well, because it only [00:02:20] takes we’re seeing more and more in the research now a matter of five [00:02:25] breaths, ten breaths, 20 breaths to really create quite a profound shift in in state. [00:02:30] So for anybody listening and for you guys here with me now, um, I just invite you to find [00:02:35] a comfortable position sitting down and then when, if you if you feel comfortable doing so, just gently [00:02:40] closing the eyes. You can do this with your eyes open. But I’d encourage you to close down your eyes. So just take a moment [00:02:45] to close your eyes here. Notice what you’re feeling, notice how [00:02:50] you’re feeling. But most importantly here, notice how you’re breathing. Is [00:02:55] the breath fast or slow? Is it deep or is it shallow? [00:03:00] Is it through the nose? Is it through the mouth? Just starting to tune in [00:03:05] to your natural. Habitual breathing pattern. [00:03:10] And we’re just going to move through two very simple techniques that are designed to [00:03:15] calm, balance and down regulate the nervous system. The first is going to be a physiological [00:03:20] sigh, which is going to be a deep inhale through the nose, followed by a second [00:03:25] smaller inhale again through the nose and then a sigh out of the mouth.

Speaker1: We’ll [00:03:30] take two more like that deeply in through the nose. And [00:03:35] again and sigh out once [00:03:40] more deeply in and again and [00:03:45] sigh out. And then our second technique is going to be an extended exhale breath. [00:03:50] When we make our Excel longer than our inhale, we lower the heart rate. We shift ourselves into [00:03:55] this lovely parasympathetic rest and digest state. So this is just going to be, to your own count, [00:04:00] a deep, gentle breath in through the nose. And then we’re going to blow the exhale slowly and gently [00:04:05] back out through the mouth, through pursed lips like you’re blowing through a small straw. So we’ll take five of those [00:04:10] in your own time, taking a nice slow, steady breath in through the nose and [00:04:15] then blowing that exhale out softly and gently. Again, [00:04:25] breathing in through the nose. And extending that breath out through [00:04:30] the mouth. Go [00:04:35] ahead and we’ll take three more like that deeply, slowly in extending [00:04:40] that breath out. The [00:04:45] last two. Allow yourself to relax fully, deeply, [00:04:50] in and softly extending that outbreath, allowing [00:04:55] the whole body to soften. Allow the shoulders [00:05:00] to relax as we move into one final cycle of that breath. Extending [00:05:05] that outbreath, allowing that sense of calm, of relaxation [00:05:10] to wash over your whole body here. And then just allow the breath to come back to gently [00:05:15] flowing in and out of the nose. Take a moment just to pause to check in before [00:05:20] you start to bring some small, gentle movements back into the body. And whenever you’re [00:05:25] ready, you can blink. Open your eyes.

Speaker3: So good. [00:05:30]

Speaker1: Send everybody to sleep before the podcast starts.

Speaker3: I know such a simple thing, right? But [00:05:35] it’s. I think it’s. Jamie. I have to tell you. Like, you know me. Like I know people that are top of their game who [00:05:40] just said to me in the kitchen, if anyone was average, would you be friends with them? I was like, Payman, that’s not [00:05:45] true because he’s so impressed with the people, I would listen, I hang out with [00:05:50] winners and I’m joking, you know?

Speaker1: Hey, look, there’s you know, I always say, you know, we [00:05:55] have different people in our lives for different reasons, but there is certainly something to the company [00:06:00] you keep and and where that takes you in your life. Yeah. You know, I don’t think I actually heard [00:06:05] an amazing thing yesterday that was saying we often hear it’s, you know, your life. It’s the sum of the five [00:06:10] people that you spend the most time with. And the person was actually saying, it’s not quite that. It’s that you sink to [00:06:15] the standards of the lowest common denominator of the people you spend the most time with. And [00:06:20] so that’s where, and this is where the nervous system, I don’t want to dive in too deep, too early, but our [00:06:25] nervous systems are constantly in dialogue. And the people that regulate you, the people that elevate you, they’ll [00:06:30] be working with your nervous system in a certain way. And the people that keep you stuck, keep you limited, keep you dysregulated [00:06:35] will also have a set way in the nervous system that they’re working with. So there’s [00:06:40] there’s method to the madness and method to the company that we keep for sure.

Speaker4: So have you fired friends? [00:06:45]

Speaker1: Have I fired friends? I would say friendships have developed. Some have come, [00:06:50] some have gone. I would say the friends that I’ve made in the last five [00:06:55] years. Um. Are different, not for better or for [00:07:00] worse than the friends that I made previously. I think there are friends that come from a place of longevity, from having known me for a long [00:07:05] time, who, um, I’m still close with, but perhaps in a slightly different way to [00:07:10] how we were previously. And then I think there are people that I’ve met in the last few years where I have [00:07:15] been more open in myself and more regulated in myself, who mirror that. Um, [00:07:20] so yeah, I think it’s never been about cutting people out, but certainly [00:07:25] watching how I’ve developed and how the relationships have developed within that, I.

Speaker3: Think there’s a really [00:07:30] amazing podcast. I’m sure you guys have seen her. She’s Middle Eastern and she’s got like tattoos and [00:07:35] hat and she’s like an amazing motivational speaker. She actually works in tech. And she basically a [00:07:40] video that she did went viral because she basically said, you know, people have come and gone, but when people [00:07:45] have got rid of themselves, it feels so good because it’s like a detox. And she said, your brain is like tofu. [00:07:50] Be careful what you marinate in, you know. And you know, I love.

Speaker4: That you fired friends. [00:07:55]

Speaker3: I find it really difficult. I think over time I’ve naturally drifted [00:08:00] from people because they’ve not served the purpose in my life. But I think London is [00:08:05] a very complex place because I’m constantly living in dichotomy, because the identity that [00:08:10] I have built within London means that I naturally attract a certain type of person or [00:08:15] clientele, which doesn’t necessarily align with my true authentic self. I’ve been lucky [00:08:20] enough that when I spent time with Jamie, I’m actually my true authentic self. We’ve met on retreats, [00:08:25] um, and that space is when I’m my most vulnerable and when I feel most safest because the people [00:08:30] around me feel safe. Where I would argue that some of the people in London, not for bad reasons. [00:08:35] I’m more in survival mode more than, you know, being at my most relaxed state. Jamie, [00:08:40] let’s talk a little about your journey. So we always like to start from the beginning. I know that when I met you, I was [00:08:45] really surprised to hear that you worked in tech. Tech is one of these jobs. That’s super glamorised. It is. You know, [00:08:50] the sort of new, like, city banking job as it was, like in the 90s and 80. [00:08:55] You know, everyone wants to be in tech. It’s the place to be. But you told me it made you really miserable, affected your mental health [00:09:00] and then led you to breathwork. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. So I [00:09:05] always kind of, at this point when I speak about my story, say that I had a relatively [00:09:10] by the book kind of upbringing, middle class, very fortunate to not have [00:09:15] had too many challenges financially from that perspective growing up. And I’m very grateful for that. But, [00:09:20] um, around the age of 15, um, well, I was 15, [00:09:25] my parents got divorced, and I don’t put blame on them for that because everyone [00:09:30] needs needs to do what they need to need to do to to move on with their lives. But it definitely at [00:09:35] that point in my life that was so formative, I did have a significant impact on me. And through my [00:09:40] late teens around that time and through my early 20s, I definitely went inwards. I definitely [00:09:45] withdrew, I definitely lost elements of myself. Um, there was a [00:09:50] an anxiety really, that took hold and a level [00:09:55] of unease that took hold. I really unknowingly, because I had [00:10:00] friends, I was high functioning. I was achieving at school, I was playing very high level of [00:10:05] sport at that time as well. I was functioning, but under the surface I think I was very uneasy [00:10:10] and very unhappy. And that went on then into my early 20s through university. [00:10:15] Um, and then at around the age of 24, I was in a very [00:10:20] kind of bleak place. I suffered with anxiety throughout that whole sort of ten year period and [00:10:25] depression as a result of that anxiety.

Speaker1: And a lot of that, I think, stemmed from a place of, [00:10:30] um, post my parents divorce, feeling like I needed to [00:10:35] fit in, to be accepted ultimately above that, to be loved [00:10:40] and to be kind of desired in, in a way. Um, and so I went down a [00:10:45] path that I thought would get me that. So it wasn’t necessarily you talked [00:10:50] about authenticity, and I always come back to that now in my life today, how can I show up [00:10:55] as my most authentic self and what environments empower that? But through that period of my late teens, [00:11:00] early 20s, I was studying a subject that I thought would get me the job that I thought would [00:11:05] get me the money that I thought would get me the approval. So I studied economics. I went to a very good university, [00:11:10] got a degree, thought I wanted to work in finance, did internships in investment banking, hated [00:11:15] it, hated it, knew it wasn’t me right from the get go. Um, and so I sort of. At [00:11:20] that point as well. I felt very uneducated, not from a academic perspective, [00:11:25] but from a perspective of knowing what was out there. I didn’t know enough about the world. I had a very narrow view, [00:11:30] and simply because of where I’d grown up, what I’d done up until that point, and what everyone else was doing [00:11:35] around me. And so I was like, I’m going to, you know, take, [00:11:40] take a slightly different path.

Speaker1: That was so. Undramatically [00:11:45] different. I went and worked in fintech. I worked in financial technology instead of finance and thought I was doing [00:11:50] something really out there and outlandish and how how rogue of me to go and [00:11:55] work in tech Start-Ups instead of an investment bank. And I had some jobs that I really [00:12:00] loved genuinely, and I don’t actually look back and think that there was anything wrong with the work itself. [00:12:05] It just wasn’t me. And I was so lost, and I was continuously losing myself, [00:12:10] trying to find myself through fitting in. And then at the age of 24, [00:12:15] hit a particular rock bottom, was suffering and struggling with suicidal ideation, with deep depression [00:12:20] and panic attacks that were debilitating, um, on a near daily [00:12:25] basis. And that led me to get help. Now, breathwork was a part of [00:12:30] that and a very, very big part of that. But that was made up of a number of things therapy, meditation, [00:12:35] yoga, exercise came back into my life in a major way. But breathwork for me was the [00:12:40] the linchpin. It was the key that unlocked a lot of things for me, particularly [00:12:45] with my anxiety. I think that I put a huge amount of weighting on breathwork as a part [00:12:50] of that that process, and continues to be something that supports me to this day.

Speaker3: Who introduced you [00:12:55] to the breathwork?

Speaker1: Um, friend of mine called Christine, who is now actually a business partner [00:13:00] of mine in a different business. Oh, wow.

Speaker3: Um, no. Anglemyer. No. I wish life. [00:13:05]

Speaker1: Would be very different if you were a friend of mine. Um, so Christine is [00:13:10] founder of a business called The Move Method. We’ve got a studio over in Fulham, and he [00:13:15] had a former studio, and I was a member of this studio. And, um, he had a fairly similar background [00:13:20] to me. He was a professional rugby player. Um, and we’ve always had quite a lot in common. And [00:13:25] I was training at the studio, I was practising at the studio, and he, he sort of just nudged me in the direction [00:13:30] of breathwork. And I was resistant, I was reluctant, I was hesitant, it wasn’t. I wasn’t open to it. I wasn’t [00:13:35] open to much beyond a bit of talk therapy and a bit of exercise, maybe a bit of yoga. [00:13:40] Um, it just seemed too out there for me to. I was too sceptical. [00:13:45] Sure. Um, and it was sort of a gentle nudge in that direction. And then eventually I [00:13:50] kind of bit the bullet and decided to to see what it was all about and haven’t really looked back since.

Speaker3: Amazing. [00:13:55] That’s so, so, so amazing. And so tell us then [00:14:00] how you made the leap. So from this kind of very corporate job into then becoming the [00:14:05] CEO, founder of the Breast Space, like, how did you make that leap in that transition?

Speaker1: On [00:14:10] reflection, I can’t remember my life being any different, and I don’t [00:14:15] actually remember at any point feeling like I was making a big leap. It almost felt like [00:14:20] a it was a pull. Like I cannot see my life having played out any other way, to be totally [00:14:25] honest with you. Um, so I was working at a, um, digital transformation [00:14:30] consultancy at the time for, for the financial services, um, ticking along, I was coasting, [00:14:35] um, and. I started training in breathwork. This was about [00:14:40] six years ago, um, sort of five years ago now. And, um, I’d spent [00:14:45] a couple of years exploring breathwork, everything that it had to offer and really finding my way [00:14:50] with it in my personal practice. And I have one particular, uh, transformative experience with [00:14:55] breathwork that I left just going, I want to see how I might be able to share this with other people. [00:15:00] And that was where it began, was just a desire to gift what I’d [00:15:05] received from it as a practice to other people. And, um, so I started [00:15:10] training. I started immersing myself in it. I’ve always had a fascination with human nature and psychology, and [00:15:15] so I started piecing together. I was like, oh, this is actually where [00:15:20] I should have been all along, actually, in terms of learning, in terms of education, in terms of what I was looking to [00:15:25] get from my life, from quite a natural, authentic place, it all started to make a lot more sense [00:15:30] and so started training, started doing certifications, qualifications and started [00:15:35] the business at the beginning of end of 2019, start of 2020. [00:15:40]

Speaker1: And um, obviously we were about to dip into Covid at [00:15:45] that point and I was still working full time, and so I was running the two alongside each other and really, [00:15:50] um, taking quite a lot of what I’d learned from small start up businesses, entrepreneurial [00:15:55] people to actually go, is there a business here? Is there actually something here [00:16:00] that could not even necessarily at that point, I was particularly concerned about making a life for myself [00:16:05] from it. But is there actually does this have legs? Can I actually turn what feels right now [00:16:10] like a passion and a passion project into something a little bit more serious, something a little bit more legitimate? [00:16:15] And that really was the beginning. And then I left my last full time job [00:16:20] in at the beginning of 2021. So I spent about a year and a half, um, [00:16:25] building the business alongside, um, what I was doing full time, um, through Covid and [00:16:30] then left the last full time job in the beginning of 2021 and went out to to kind [00:16:35] of continue building the breath space and make it what it is today.

Speaker3: Amazing.

Speaker4: Also, the business model. [00:16:40]

Speaker1: Yeah, varied. And uh, developing, [00:16:45] I would say. So I think this year has been particularly interesting for me, um, because [00:16:50] I felt a real pull and a real desire to build the brand [00:16:55] as a brand in of itself. Whereas the three, four years [00:17:00] prior that, I’d been very much building Jamie Clements breathwork coach individual. [00:17:05] And actually in the last six months, it’s become very apparent that this is here to be more [00:17:10] than that. And actually, for me, in terms of what I know I want for my life longer time, I have no interest in [00:17:15] always being the face of it by any means. I that’s the goal. I’m an introvert. I [00:17:20] love working with people. I love teaching and educating, but I, [00:17:25] um, need days to recoup and recover afterwards. So for me, [00:17:30] this is actually about, um. Becoming almost [00:17:35] a mouthpiece for breathwork and sharing that that work in whatever form that takes. The business model [00:17:40] at the moment is a pretty much a split down the middle of in person and online. So I work privately 1 to [00:17:45] 1. I work with businesses and corporates. I work with, um, high profile [00:17:50] individuals, particularly from a from a private practice perspective. Um, and then also group [00:17:55] workshops, retreats and that side of things from an in person point of view. I then have online [00:18:00] courses and online membership, a real digital presence. I work with apps. Um, and [00:18:05] then increasingly I’m finding myself working in a consultancy, um, kind [00:18:10] of capacity, working with different businesses to help them integrate wellbeing and breathwork [00:18:15] into what they do. So hotels being a great example, all looking to kind of ride this wave [00:18:20] of hospitality and wellness merging. Um, so spending a lot of time actually [00:18:25] sharing how and what they should be doing when it comes to integrating breathwork as well. [00:18:30] So it’s sort of started very broad and it’s gradually getting a little bit narrower. Um, and [00:18:35] this year is very much about building the brand as a brand and the business scaling ultimately. [00:18:40]

Speaker3: Jamie, for those people that don’t know, can you explain in layman’s terms [00:18:45] what breathwork actually is because people will be like, is it just me huffing and puffing? What’s the science [00:18:50] behind it? And is there a particular method that you have created for yourself?

Speaker1: For sure. [00:18:55] So, um, it’s the question because I think, you know, these conversations, [00:19:00] there’s a pre-existing level of knowledge that lulls me into a false sense of feeling like everybody [00:19:05] knows what I’m going on about. Same with.

Speaker3: Dentistry. People are like talking about stuff and they’re like, yeah, you know, veneers. [00:19:10] They’re like, yeah, I don’t know what that is.

Speaker1: Yeah, exactly. So, um, breathwork to me, for me [00:19:15] is an umbrella tum that encapsulates any way that we can use the breath to shift our state physically, [00:19:20] mentally, emotionally, spiritually within that, um, the way that I’ve developed the breath [00:19:25] space approach over the last few years has very much been informed, both by ancient practices, [00:19:30] ancient wisdom and contemporary science backed, um, evidence based practices, and [00:19:35] has been drawn directly from, um, how [00:19:40] I benefited from breathwork. So I talk about full spectrum breathwork, really [00:19:45] working from at one end the micro, which is about how we breathe day to day, and the 20 plus thousand [00:19:50] breaths that we take every single day, and the impact of those and how we can work at a [00:19:55] very simple level to optimise that all the way through to the macro level, where we’re working with big transformational [00:20:00] breathwork experiences. And there’s three key pillars that we can break it down to. The first [00:20:05] being that functional breathing piece. So how as a listener, as you guys [00:20:10] hear right now, do you breathe unconsciously? What is the natural resting state of your [00:20:15] breath? And is that helping you? Is that harming you? How is that affecting you? [00:20:20] And once we can become aware of that, how can you optimise that? So [00:20:25] that for me is is really the it can be a spectrum or a bit of a pyramid. And that is the first [00:20:30] layer that is the fundamentals.

Speaker1: We then have this middle piece which is around [00:20:35] the nervous system and nervous system regulation, which is looking at the role of the [00:20:40] quite unique role of the breath as a part of our autonomic nervous system. And the [00:20:45] best analogy here is that your breath can act as a remote control into the state of your nervous system, [00:20:50] to create change by conscious breathing. We then have the far end of the spectrum, which [00:20:55] is where we’re working with therapeutic breathwork, conscious, connected, breathing, these big [00:21:00] transcendent mystical experiences that come as a result of using the breath to tap into altered states [00:21:05] of consciousness. That realm sounds sexier, it sounds [00:21:10] more exciting, and ultimately, on the face of it, it is. But all of these are incredibly impactful [00:21:15] and important. This ends this kind of deeper end of the spectrum has typically been, um, [00:21:20] I’d say neglected or not really viewed, um, as worth [00:21:25] researching by by the scientific community. Um, but there are studies emerging now, and [00:21:30] there’s a really exciting one that came out back in September last year and that found [00:21:35] through, um, anecdotal experience. But through the research of this, this [00:21:40] study group that you can create, um, mystical experiences that [00:21:45] are comparable to medium to high doses of psilocybin. Yeah. Have you heard about this work? Um, [00:21:50] so that to me is the most exciting piece of research in breathwork for, for a while. [00:21:55]

Speaker3: So, you know, this is super interesting to me as well, because I’ve heard people say particularly [00:22:00] addicts because addicts feel like they can’t. Even though plant medicine is obviously not considered to necessarily [00:22:05] be a form of addiction, like a lot of people that go into total sobriety definitely don’t even [00:22:10] want to do plant medicines, but they say they can achieve that same high through breathwork, like you literally [00:22:15] can, you know, reach an altered state of consciousness. You see visuals like experience [00:22:20] that in your body. And I find that incredible. To me, though, I’m a bit of a disbeliever. [00:22:25] I’m like, how do you know what I mean? Like, do you have to be there for hours? And I’d probably lose patience. And with my ADHD tendencies, [00:22:30] I just can’t imagine. Reaching that altered state so you know what [00:22:35] would be required? And do you need to be a pro to reach that?

Speaker1: I’d say [00:22:40] not not. It’s not about being a pro. Um, and it’s not even necessarily about time. I think the [00:22:45] big difference, the key differential between plant medicines, psychedelics and [00:22:50] breathwork is the, um, the [00:22:55] substance nature of the medicine work. Because when you take a [00:23:00] plant medicine, a psychedelic, you are on the roller coaster, you’re not getting off. There is a change [00:23:05] coming, there’s an experience coming, and you ultimately just have to surrender to that. And if [00:23:10] you try and control that, it can create discomfort with breathwork. And this is a pro [00:23:15] and a con when it comes to working with altered states of consciousness, you are in control. So you [00:23:20] can stop. You can get distracted, you can get resistant, you can pull back, you [00:23:25] can push forward. That to me is the beauty of it and the pitfall of it, because [00:23:30] it can be so powerful. And I wouldn’t ever want to be one of those people that says it can [00:23:35] work for everyone, but it can work for a large majority of people. If we’re taking into [00:23:40] account the proper medical contraindications, safety precautions, and all of that side of things. Um, [00:23:45] the difference in what I see, you know, over the past sort of four and a half, five [00:23:50] years of experience in retreats and in workshops where we’re working with these deeper modalities [00:23:55] is that someone might step in, you might step in, for example, Rona, and, um, it [00:24:00] might take you 40 minutes in a session to really get into it for someone [00:24:05] else.

Speaker1: It might be their first session ever, and it might take them five minutes and they’re in. Um, [00:24:10] and that is dependent on a number of factors, but very much about the individual, [00:24:15] your capacity to let go your natural brain state as well, because ultimately [00:24:20] we are working with brain states and shifting brain states. Um, and really at a kind [00:24:25] of slightly, um, reductionist level where dropping the activity [00:24:30] in the monkey mind, that kind of ruminative part of the brain, and seeing a spike in activity in the subconscious, [00:24:35] which is where the experience itself comes from, which is completely mirroring [00:24:40] what we see with, with plant medicines. So sometimes it takes people. And I was one of [00:24:45] these people. It took me probably 5 or 6 sessions to get anywhere because I had I view it as [00:24:50] sort of layers of the onion. I had a lot of stuff to to dig through, to even get to a point [00:24:55] where I could open to an experience, whereas other people will drop straight in, [00:25:00] um, and that is just unique to the individual. Um, so I’d say there’s a [00:25:05] capacity for the large majority of people to get genuine experience and benefit [00:25:10] from that particular style of breathwork, but I’m also aware that it’s not for everybody.

Speaker4: So [00:25:15] is there is there a particular habit, I mean, coffee or sleep, [00:25:20] or is there something that gets in the way? Did you tell people not to drink coffee [00:25:25] before they have a session or something?

Speaker1: So I ran a retreat this weekend, just gone, and we [00:25:30] advise in the week leading up to it to minimise coffee, minimise social [00:25:35] media use, minimise stress, clean up your diet. All of this stuff that you might [00:25:40] do for a diet or working with plant medicines as well to, um, I [00:25:45] wouldn’t say it’s a particular habit, but I would say it’s anything that serves as an overstimulating [00:25:50] capacity on both the body and the mind. So anything that could be a distraction, anything [00:25:55] that might stop you going inwards, anything that keeps you trapped in your head. And so there will be certain [00:26:00] personalities who have a trickier time of being trapped in their head anyway. [00:26:05] Um, whereas other people might me who might actually just be able to drop in much [00:26:10] more naturally and more quickly. So, um, in an ideal world, we would strip out kind of [00:26:15] stimulants, we’d strip out tech, we’d strip out everything, um, which is kind of just a bit of a metaphor [00:26:20] for life on a grander scale, ultimately. But, um, to get the most from it, we would look [00:26:25] to minimise other, other aspects.

Speaker3: I’m going to pivot a little bit because obviously we’re dentists [00:26:30] and I’m so interested in this. So recently on social media platforms [00:26:35] like TikTok and everything, everything’s been talking about, everyone’s been talking about breathwork, jaw formation, [00:26:40] and I think we’ve seen a massive change in dentistry because we used to be perceived [00:26:45] as butchers and very much like drill, fill, pay the bills sort of people. Now people are recognising, [00:26:50] I mean, it’s so exciting. I was just saying to you earlier, Huberman’s released a podcast on the oral microbiome. [00:26:55] Amazing. So we’re having these conversations and controversially, there was an orthodontist, [00:27:00] him and his father mu. And it’s mewing. Were you? I learned this on TikTok and [00:27:05] I asked my orthodontist and she was just like, you know, this is super controversial. But [00:27:10] ultimately, environmental and genetic factors can play an effect on the growth of a child [00:27:15] and their jaw, etc. and then obviously breathing as well. So I want you and you’re like, Rona, you [00:27:20] should know more about this. I actually don’t, you know, and I don’t know if Payman does. Do you know, how about how breath and the jaw [00:27:25] effect?

Speaker4: I had a boss who was very close to me, and so, um, he used to [00:27:30] talk a lot about it, but.

Speaker3: Yeah. So tell us, Jamie.

Speaker1: It’s one of the big ones [00:27:35] at the moment because of the rise of social media and the chat about mouth taping. [00:27:40] Yeah. So, um, ultimately, this fits into this first pillar where we’re talking about functional [00:27:45] breathing. And a lot of the conversation about functional breathing, um, is, broadly speaking, split into [00:27:50] a conversation versus nasal versus mouth, um, and belly versus chest. So this is about biomechanics [00:27:55] and biochemistry of breathing and how you really habitually breathe naturally. And [00:28:00] it’s fascinating because let’s if we just speak to what we’re referring to [00:28:05] here in terms of nasal breathing versus mouth breathing, oral breathing, um, the benefits [00:28:10] of nasal breathing over mouth breathing are so well documented. [00:28:15] Now in the research, it’s, you know, there’s not even a discussion anymore around this and this. This [00:28:20] applies to rest during sleep, during low to medium intensity exercise. We want to be breathing [00:28:25] through the nose so the nose will naturally slow the breath. [00:28:30] It’s a smaller passageway. It’s going to regulate the breath in a really nice way. That’s going to help to regulate the nervous system. [00:28:35] Number one, it’s going to filter humidify and really create optimal [00:28:40] air to be received by the lungs. Additionally to that, when we breathe through the nose, we get [00:28:45] deeper and better recruitment of the bottom portion of the lungs. So we’re using more of our respiratory capacity. [00:28:50] All of these are great mouth breathing. On the other hand, um, [00:28:55] not only recruits a higher portion of the lungs, so we’re actually breathing more shallow. We’re [00:29:00] also breathing more in terms of volume. So we’re over breathing what people talk about in terms [00:29:05] of things like hyperventilation syndrome. So we’re offloading a lot of carbon dioxide. We [00:29:10] might then get a decrease in cerebral blood flow, brain fog, dehydration. [00:29:15] There’s one amazing study that shows that mouth breathing we lose 42% more water mouth [00:29:20] breathing compared to nasal breathing, which.

Speaker4: Is how interesting.

Speaker1: Plenty. Um, and the reason [00:29:25] that this comes around to this idea of mouth taping and mouth breathing and looking [00:29:30] to avoid it, particularly during sleep, is a that mouth taping is quite a people [00:29:35] view it as strange, people view it as out there, people view it as shocking. Um, but also [00:29:40] because of the fact that so many people are falling into habitual [00:29:45] mouth breathing while they’re awake and while they’re asleep. So the people I’m talking to are the ones that wake [00:29:50] up dry mouth, brain fog, fatigue, muscle soreness. And [00:29:55] to come back to your round, to your point on on dentistry. But hang on.

Speaker3: So mouth taping [00:30:00] does work. In conclusion.

Speaker4: Maybe let me just go through what it is.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:05] Simplify it. So mouth taping very simply I’ve seen it.

Speaker4: Yeah I have yeah.

Speaker1: Typically advised [00:30:10] to be a little strip of tape vertically over the centre of your lips. The idea being that it’s gently keeping [00:30:15] the mouth closed while you sleep. Yeah. The reason for this is that, um, I [00:30:20] can say, right, if you’re a habitual mouth breather while you’re awake, I want you to focus while you’re awake [00:30:25] on breathing more through your nose. And you go, okay, great, I’ll do that. You go to sleep and you spend eight hours breathing with [00:30:30] an open mouth, snoring, whatever it might be. Then you’re undoing a lot of that hard work, and you’re [00:30:35] not really resolving the root cause issue. And there can be multiple root causes of mouth breathing. [00:30:40] Um. So the mouth taping just really helps to redirect the breath [00:30:45] back through the nose during sleep. It is, in my opinion, a temporary [00:30:50] fix. It’s a short time solution that can help us create those [00:30:55] conditions where we can move towards a more optimal, more functional breathing pattern. It is also not [00:31:00] safe for people with certain medical contraindications around cardiovascular system with severe sleep [00:31:05] apnoea, particularly obstructive sleep apnoea. It’s not advised, even though those people would probably also be mouth [00:31:10] breathing, um, and anybody who’s pregnant. So there’s like quick caveats and disclaimers [00:31:15] around it.

Speaker1: But I’d say for fit, healthy, um, individuals who mouth breathe, [00:31:20] who are aware either because their partners told them or because they’re waking up with a lot of these symptoms of [00:31:25] dry mouth, brain fog, fatigue, bad breath, then it’s highly likely [00:31:30] that your mouth breathing and that mouth taping could be a short time solution to that. Um, so [00:31:35] I would say it works. I’ve I’ve done it myself. I don’t do it as much [00:31:40] as I did previously because I have developed over the years, kind of an all around more healthy [00:31:45] breathing pattern that has fed into sleep. Um, and I can certainly attest to the fact that in, [00:31:50] especially in the first six months of doing it and getting traction with it. [00:31:55] I noticed such a significant shift because I had been struggling with sinus [00:32:00] issues. I’d been breathing through my mouth for a lot of a lot of my early 20s that actually [00:32:05] I it’s the lowest hanging fruit that I’ve found from a health perspective. [00:32:10] Um, from a very personal experience perspective as well, um, in terms of clarity of thought, [00:32:15] sleep quality, overall cognitive functioning on waking. Um, and [00:32:20] it’s quite a it comes out being quite controversial, but that’s social [00:32:25] media’s fault because, because.

Speaker3: People are like so alarmed to see your like mouth tape shop but so with with [00:32:30] jaw formation because obviously we’ve got a condition called an anterior open bite, which basically means that the [00:32:35] top and bottom teeth don’t meet. You’ve got this gap between your top and bottom teeth. And sometimes [00:32:40] people try to close that space with their tongues. They get something called an endogenous tongue thrust to create like [00:32:45] a seal, for example. Um, and definitely, you know, typically we call them mouth breathers. [00:32:50] And there’s other kind of like issues going on with them. So do you believe that something [00:32:55] into and I know you’re not like the dentist or anything like that, but do you think that there is scope [00:33:00] for a conversation where interceptive treatment can be done to help jaw development? [00:33:05] Let’s talk about jaw development for sure.

Speaker1: So from a mouth breathing perspective, we [00:33:10] see particularly in and this conversation I think across dentistry and the world of [00:33:15] respiratory physiology is is great because we typically see especially in [00:33:20] childhood and development kind of craniofacial development. Um, mouth breathing will lead [00:33:25] to a elongation of the face. So a longer face, um, and a setting [00:33:30] back of the lower mandible. Lower mandible. Yeah. Um, so you see [00:33:35] poor teeth formation. You see a lot of, of factors that come up as a result of that, alongside the other [00:33:40] symptoms that we’ve mentioned in terms of cognitive function and sort of mental and emotional side of it. [00:33:45] Um, there I think it’s multi multifaceted because, you [00:33:50] know, you talked about environmental. It’s definitely a case for things like diet and proper [00:33:55] kind of food and, and real whole food in terms of how often we’re chewing and that formation of [00:34:00] the jaw. But again, it’s all of these things are multifaceted. And because [00:34:05] of that, we can suggest that breath and mouth [00:34:10] breathing is a likely factor. And if you see your child, for example, [00:34:15] or a young adult or even an older adult who is mouth breathing and they are having issues [00:34:20] with kind of jaw formation, face shape, general respiratory health as well, then [00:34:25] as long as they are fit and healthy, then you’ve actually not got much to lose. [00:34:30] In trying to remedy that as a possible solution would be my opinion.

Speaker3: But how can [00:34:35] you remedy it? Do you know what I mean? Like so if a child is mouth breathing, what are you going to do? You’re going to [00:34:40] take their mouth shut. Then from a young age, would you do it? I don’t have kids yet, so I don’t know. No. [00:34:45]

Speaker4: There.

Speaker1: Yeah. There’s I, um, it’s invasive. [00:34:50] It’s invasive. It feels.

Speaker4: Weird.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker4: There’s kid.

Speaker1: There’s certain tape that, [00:34:55] um, goes around the edge of the mouth that gently keeps the lips closed. And that is what’s typically recommended [00:35:00] and suggested for children. I my partner has a daughter. We’ve had this conversation [00:35:05] about it in terms of like, would you actually could we actually address it if we [00:35:10] felt it was an issue? And I feel quite strongly on it because I [00:35:15] and clearly in this world and I see the the harm that continuous [00:35:20] habitual mouth breathing can do. And as with anything in life, nature or nurture, [00:35:25] the earlier you catch it, the better. And the longer it goes on, for the worse it becomes, but also the harder [00:35:30] it is to undo. And so while it is invasive and probably not easy to any [00:35:35] parents listening or watching, they’ll be going, yeah, fat chance of that happening. I’m not never going to get my kid to do that. [00:35:40] And maybe that’s the case, but what else can we be doing? And I think there’s a conversation here about [00:35:45] wake time breathing and actually looking at what someone isn’t just mouth breathing just [00:35:50] because they’re not just mouth breathing at night because, um, so.

Speaker4: It [00:35:55] seems like a cultural problem rather than an actual problem. Well, I’m sure if [00:36:00] there was some device that a dentist could make that you could put in inside the mouth rather than the, the [00:36:05] fact that it’s over the lips just feels so strange, doesn’t it?

Speaker3: Well, I mean, there’s lots [00:36:10] of like, you know, there’s brands out there now like Myo Brace and stuff like that that are really affecting, like the jaw formation, [00:36:15] etc. and, you know, a bit teetering off from like breathwork, you know, [00:36:20] now they’re showing as well that giving your child like really chewy foods is really good for like, like jaw development [00:36:25] and everything like that. What I’m also interested to know is that is there any correlation between [00:36:30] the types of breathing and mental health disorders. So like ADHD, [00:36:35] like I’ve heard that ADHD now is linked to things [00:36:40] going on in the mouth and breathing etc. like that, which again is a massive thing for the dental sphere. [00:36:45] So has there been shown? Yeah.

Speaker1: So it’s a little bit chicken and egg when it comes [00:36:50] to, um, the mental and emotional experience and the experience of the breath. So. The [00:36:55] nervous system and breath are in this continuous dialogue where it’s, you know, as we all know, if something [00:37:00] frightens you, your breath will speed up, you’ll feel more fear, you’ll feel anxious, and vice versa. If [00:37:05] you’re breathing really quickly, you’ll start to feel more anxious. So we’re in this sort of constant loop. And there was a great [00:37:10] study that came out in 2013 that looked at the, um, natural habitual [00:37:15] breathing pattern of, uh, a study group that had diagnosed anxiety [00:37:20] disorders so significant enough anxiety disorders to, to be given a diagnosis. And they [00:37:25] found, I think the stat was 73, 72% of those with anxiety [00:37:30] disorders also had what were deemed diagnosable dysfunctional breathing patterns. [00:37:35] And that really to me, whether it’s causation, whether it’s correlation, [00:37:40] whatever, whatever the starting point, you develop an anxiety disorder and develop dysfunctional [00:37:45] breathing. They perpetuate each other. So we have this intrinsic link between the state of breath [00:37:50] and the state of mind. And ADHD is a great example because obviously we’re seeing so much [00:37:55] at the moment a conversation around ADHD, adult diagnoses of ADHD, and [00:38:00] I certainly feel from my own perspective, when I catch myself in what I would deem sort of as ADHD [00:38:05] like behaviours, a lack of focus, overstimulation, hyper focus, whatever it might be. [00:38:10]

Speaker1: And when I work with people with ADHD, what we’re ultimately looking [00:38:15] at isn’t saying that breath can cure ADHD, but we can [00:38:20] certainly use breathwork to work with symptoms to to support [00:38:25] ourselves. So a lot of people struggling with ADHD are also going to be feeling some expression [00:38:30] of a dysregulated, overstimulated nervous system. So actually, while we might not be [00:38:35] working with the root cause of the ADHD itself, perhaps we might be with some people. We [00:38:40] can use certain tools, techniques, practices to help them feel more balanced, to focus [00:38:45] more, to feel more regulated, whatever it might be. Um, and so there’s [00:38:50] for me, this is where stuff gets really powerful for breathwork from a [00:38:55] day to day level is actually going. We can work with our state of mind directly [00:39:00] through the breath. And that to me is the the power of it.

Speaker4: That’s super interesting because, you know, the autonomic [00:39:05] nervous system by definition is autonomic. Whereas some [00:39:10] of the stuff I’ve seen with Wim Hof that, you know, you can literally it’s the only [00:39:15] way of tapping into your autonomic nervous system is by changing your breath. Tell [00:39:20] me, what are the what are a couple of useful breathing patterns? Let’s [00:39:25] say I’m super stressed and have to have a panic attack or some feel that coming on. What should I do? [00:39:30] And the opposite. Let’s say I’m low energy and I want to get get going. What should [00:39:35] I do?

Speaker1: Great question. Yeah. So this comes back to the autonomic system right. We’re using that that lever [00:39:40] that remote control. So the language that we use here is up [00:39:45] regulation which is that that lifting or down regulation which is the the calming [00:39:50] which is the sympathetic response, which is fight flight, freeze and the parasympathetic rest and digest, [00:39:55] um, for panic and high anxiety and just general stress. Most [00:40:00] of the techniques and the stuff we lean on is pretty straightforward, but tends [00:40:05] to lean towards an extended exhale. So, like we did right back at the beginning, we did five extended [00:40:10] exhale breaths. This comes back to um heart rate and heart rate variability. [00:40:15] So we often think if um, my resting heart rate for example [00:40:20] might be 60 beats per minute, we think a beat on the second [00:40:25] every second for a minute. But what’s actually happening is when we inhale because of the change in volume of the [00:40:30] thoracic cavity, um, our heart rate slightly speeds up. When we exhale, it slightly slows down [00:40:35] logic, maths, whatever we want to call it. If you make your exhale longer than your inhale, [00:40:40] your heart rate is going to spend more time slowing down.

Speaker1: You’re going to start to feel more calm. We’re really tapping into that parasympathetic [00:40:45] response. So for high anxiety, usually we’ll work with [00:40:50] some kind of 1 to 2 ratio of inhale to exhale. So in for three [00:40:55] out for six in for four out for eight. Really maximising the length of that exhale. Um we [00:41:00] also introduce short holds. So in for four hold for four out for eight [00:41:05] is a great one. And the reason for that and from my past with panic attacks, [00:41:10] one of the most frustrating, intense, well-intended, but frustrating [00:41:15] pieces of advice is slow down your breathing because you’re in a panic attack and you barely have any [00:41:20] control if you’re breathing. And so one of the most powerful things that I found was actually to be able to [00:41:25] take a quick hold because then my breathing isn’t out of control. I hold, [00:41:30] I start breathing a little bit more slowly. I hold, and it’s really just taking back a little bit of [00:41:35] control, a bit of autonomy over my system and over what’s going on.

Speaker4: I found [00:41:40] the hold really useful last night when I did your, uh, your yes thing. It was almost like the you. [00:41:45]

Speaker3: Literally went from movement as medicine to breathwork. I love you, I’m so proud of you.

Speaker4: One after the other. [00:41:50]

Speaker3: So proud of you.

Speaker4: But it was, it was the hold was almost like a like a stillness like. [00:41:55]

Speaker3: But listen, I’m going to be honest with you, and I don’t know if this is me being me, [00:42:00] but I just can’t do breathwork on my own. And that’s why, like, I literally.

Speaker4: I like.

Speaker3: The guiding. Exactly. It’s [00:42:05] it’s Jamie’s guidance. And that’s why I think, like I always say, like, always invest in the professionals [00:42:10] because I think like, yeah, sure, I can download headspace, which I have done, I’ve done this [00:42:15] stuff. But like when you like, I’ve had one on one on one sessions with Jamie gone to his house and it’s just a different [00:42:20] space.

Speaker4: It’s the difference between watching a personal trainer on a video. Yeah.

Speaker3: And being, yeah.

Speaker4: Actually [00:42:25] being there. And I think part of it is the accountability of it. Yeah. Actually turning up.

Speaker3: Turning up.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah. I’ve [00:42:30] found um float tank the best was that float tank.

Speaker3: Oh [00:42:35] I’ve heard about this and I’ve never been guys where is.

Speaker4: It in Wandsworth. I go so.

Speaker3: Far. [00:42:40] Why.

Speaker4: It’s near me. So Fulham.

Speaker1: There’s there’s one in there all over the place. Oh, really? Yeah. [00:42:45]

Speaker4: So what is it in water. Yeah. Salty water at body temperature and a cover. But basically it’s [00:42:50] there’s no sort of stimulus at all.

Speaker3: Are you, are you just on top of [00:42:55] the water floating in like a bikini or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker4: Well naked because it’s covered. Oh, really? [00:43:00] And then, um, but then the breathing is the only thing and I’ve, I found when [00:43:05] I.

Speaker3: Want to try this for.

Speaker4: An hour, you’re just breathing. And it’s the only time where you can really [00:43:10] super focus in on breathing. You’re never going to do it for an hour like this. And this. Bright lights and all that. Have you tried it?

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:43:15] I love it. I’ve not done it for a while and I’m going to go back. Um, it’s great. It’s sensory deprivation. [00:43:20] And it is, I’d say akin to a lot of breathwork experience as well. [00:43:25] At that deeper end, spend maybe the first ten minutes, 15 minutes going.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: I’m [00:43:30] a bit bored. I’m a bit restless. Yeah. That’s right. If you can get into it, if you can stay with your breath, it becomes [00:43:35] this amazing space.

Speaker3: So I want to ask you, I mean, Jamie, I’ve known you for a long time [00:43:40] now, and I know that, you know, nothing sort of phases you in this realm. But Jamie’s done some incredible work [00:43:45] with other men, creating safe spaces for men, which is also one of the big reasons why I wanted to bring him here. [00:43:50] We often talk about I talk a lot about men, actually, on this podcast, only because I feel [00:43:55] like, you know, male suicide is still the single biggest killer in the UK of men under 25. [00:44:00] And I still feel worried for the role models that are out there. And Jamie’s created [00:44:05] a space with men that are, you know, look like, [00:44:10] I want to say normal people because I think people associate safe spaces with like being a bit woo woo and a bit like, [00:44:15] as they would say, naff. I’m just like kind of quoting. But he’s created like these, like men’s circles. [00:44:20] They do like retreats together. And they, they do they do activities which like harnesses [00:44:25] a lot of, um, you know, I say community and like a tribe like spirit. [00:44:30] But was it ever difficult for you to create those spaces and like, in [00:44:35] terms of, like delving into the world of breath space, which be considered quite like a feminine thing to do, [00:44:40] was there anything around that that was difficult for your mental health?

Speaker1: Absolutely. [00:44:45] I’d say it’s still it’s still a piece of work for me in terms of the development of, [00:44:50] um, my comfort in those spaces. I grew up from [00:44:55] 15 with my mum and my sister and didn’t [00:45:00] spend I spent time with my dad. I still have a good relationship with my dad, but I definitely grew up [00:45:05] in the the learnings and the environment of my mum and my sister and I. I put [00:45:10] down a lot of, um, my success and my, my kind of fulfilment [00:45:15] to that and the skills that I actually learnt, um, there and kind of everything that I [00:45:20] absorbed, um, and I’ve typically struggled [00:45:25] not so much in the last few years as I’ve worked with it and through it, but typically struggle with my relationship [00:45:30] towards other men. Um, I think there’s a naturally confrontational, [00:45:35] um, combative element to not all men, but the [00:45:40] male group. Um, and that leads to a lack [00:45:45] of vulnerability, a lack of openness. And in the same way, [00:45:50] it’s either a vicious or a virtuous cycle. Someone being open and vulnerable promotes openness [00:45:55] and vulnerable vulnerability, and someone being closed off and a bit, um, aloof [00:46:00] feeds the same. And it feeds standoffishness. And that is never going to be a healthy place for [00:46:05] connection, because the connection comes through the openness, through the authenticity, through the vulnerability. [00:46:10] And so I’ve been really fortunate to have worked with more and more men.

Speaker1: I’d say it’s still [00:46:15] heavily weighted towards women. Absolutely. I think the nature of the work that I do, [00:46:20] um, I, I don’t shy away from leading with emotion [00:46:25] in my work, and it takes time for people en masse [00:46:30] to to come into that with comfort, but particularly men. So many of us, myself included, were [00:46:35] raised of an era and to this day of a conditioning that [00:46:40] told us that that, you know, expression, healthy expression of emotion, any expression, expression [00:46:45] of emotion was feminine, it was weak, it was [00:46:50] something not to be engaged with. And so we pushed it down. We push it down, we push it down, and then we suffer and. [00:46:55] So I’ve been incredibly grateful that it’s developed over the last few years. I’ve sat in and held [00:47:00] men’s circles, men’s spaces, and I’m a big advocate now [00:47:05] in my work of mixed spaces and the capacity for for co healing [00:47:10] of women to witness men in their vulnerability and their openness and to, um, you [00:47:15] know, for the women who have maybe had terrible traumatic experiences at the hands of men [00:47:20] to witness men who are not threatening in that way, who are open, who [00:47:25] are healing, who are trying. Yeah. Um, and vice versa. I know so many men who have suffered at [00:47:30] the hands of women emotionally, physically and [00:47:35] for people to, to see a part of.

Speaker1: Maybe it’s your mum, maybe it’s your dad, maybe it’s [00:47:40] an ex-partner. To see a glimpse of that person who has hurt you in someone [00:47:45] else in one of those spaces is incredibly healing. Because there’s forgiveness, there is compassion, [00:47:50] there is conversation. And all of this healing for me in that capacity comes down to, [00:47:55] can you allow yourself to understand another perspective, [00:48:00] someone else’s perspective? Can you put yourself in the shoes of the person that hurt you? You [00:48:05] know, I think about my parents divorce and my dad, um, you know, clearly, [00:48:10] and this is something, you know, that I’ve worked with and worked through clearly, everything [00:48:15] that had happened before in his life and his childhood had led to a point where he found himself [00:48:20] unable to communicate in a way that that made that process perhaps easier than it could have been. [00:48:25] But as a late teens, early 20s man, I held a lot of resentment [00:48:30] towards him and very little understanding. And it’s only been through the understanding that you can even start [00:48:35] to tap into forgiveness and compassion. Um, and I think a lot of men, um, [00:48:40] struggle with that. I think just the openness piece, the emotional vulnerability piece, a [00:48:45] lot of good has happened. There’s so much more conversation happening than there’s ever been before, but there’s still [00:48:50] work to be done. I think.

Speaker3: 100%. I want to ask you something. Have you ever cried in front of your friends? Sure [00:48:55] you have. Yeah. Proud of you. I didn’t know I didn’t expect that of you, actually. [00:49:00] Why? So? No, I just felt like it’s like old school generation as well of, like, you know, [00:49:05] men have to always be, like, stoic and strong and etc.. The thing is, [00:49:10] is that I think that it is important. I mean, it was interesting because when we were talking on another [00:49:15] podcast, I was talking about, um, my immigrant family and the [00:49:20] different complexities that came with that. And Payman was like resonating and how what we achieved [00:49:25] academically or our achievements made us feel a sense of self-worth. And then someone [00:49:30] commented on the podcast and they were like, yeah, but what’s the opposite to that? Like, I think [00:49:35] that there has to be a balance, because if we tell people to just cry it out and like dwell [00:49:40] on their like sadness, they don’t grow and become resilient. I thought that was quite an interesting [00:49:45] point because I’m like, is there a balance? Do you think that we have become too soft as a nation, and [00:49:50] we’re allowing people to use their struggles to kind [00:49:55] of get on with it? Or do you think it is important that we actually create safer spaces? You know. [00:50:00]

Speaker1: I think it’s a great question. Um, I think my view [00:50:05] is that we have too much comfort, not that we have too much openness and softness. [00:50:10] I think we’re soft from a place of complacency and comfort rather than [00:50:15] soft from a place of vulnerability. I actually think, and there’s an interesting piece in the self-development [00:50:20] conversation that I think sometimes gets missed, which is actually the goal here. Isn’t [00:50:25] trauma dumping constant openness constant just shedding [00:50:30] everything with everyone and crying without any. You know, [00:50:35] we take crying as an obvious example, but expressing without any thought. It’s emotional regulation [00:50:40] that we’re seeking and we often confuse, you know, stoicism is a great example of [00:50:45] something that’s been massively misunderstood in modern society because stoicism people are like, [00:50:50] that’s just emotional repression in a different language, but actually stoicism, the Stoics were the best [00:50:55] sort of regulating their emotions. They were able to experience deep suffering, deep struggle, [00:51:00] feel it all and move forward. And actually, that to me is where [00:51:05] the growth and the resilience comes from isn’t from blocking an expression of an emotion, blocking the feeling of a feeling. [00:51:10] It’s actually feeling it fully, allowing it to pass through you and then regulating [00:51:15] yourself in the face of it. And I think that’s something that, especially in the conversation around men’s mental [00:51:20] health, has has to come into this, because I think that’s why a lot of men are resistant [00:51:25] and reluctant towards it, because they just think, I’m just going to become soft. I’m going to become too [00:51:30] open, too vulnerable. It’s going to be used against me. When actually this is about learn [00:51:35] how to feel your feelings so that you can become the best version of yourself, [00:51:40] so that you can be strong so that you can support other people because you cannot support [00:51:45] anybody else in their emotions effectively. If you’re completely disconnected from your own.

Speaker3: And it will manifest [00:51:50] in other physical ways. And that’s why when you see people that are really angry and again, angry is also healthy. Healthy [00:51:55] emotion. I remember my coach said to me, you know, go scream into a pillow like and I found that [00:52:00] one of the most useful tools in the world, because if I suppressed like anger, emotions, it would come out in [00:52:05] a really damaging way to the person that I was with. Not physically, but, you know, I would say something or [00:52:10] I would erupt and that would make me appear to that person in a certain way. But as you [00:52:15] said earlier, try to put yourself in other people’s shoes as well. Like, I just wanted to comment on that. [00:52:20]

Speaker4: I think, you know, part of the previous conversation we were having about women having to be more like [00:52:25] men in the workplace talking about men.

Speaker3: Yeah. See, look, Jamie is nodding. There is that. He says he’s learned a [00:52:30] whole new vocabulary.

Speaker4: It’s real. It’s real. But but also, I think these days [00:52:35] men are learning to be more like women. You know that that you know, this this conversation ten years [00:52:40] ago, even ten years ago would have been seen as like, just just [00:52:45] bullshit, you know, just crap. Yeah. You know, whereas now, you know, you can ask me if I cry, I [00:52:50] can, I can say, yes, I did in front of my friend without worrying about that. This is going out.

Speaker3: You know, [00:52:55] the reason why I asked you that as well is because, like, you know, we’ve had conversations because when I came on here [00:53:00] the first time and stuff, I was using words like trauma and everything and like, because Payman had never [00:53:05] been exposed to this whole realm of stuff. And over time he recognised [00:53:10] that actually, it’s an understanding and doing work that I can use these words [00:53:15] to understand who I am.

Speaker4: Like another. Yeah.

Speaker3: You know, um, but the other thing is, [00:53:20] is that thinking about it, even though we’re talking about like the archetypal figures [00:53:25] within society, someone like Wim Hof comes across as like a really like, masculine, like caveman [00:53:30] to me. And he’s like made a whole movement out of breathwork, do you know what I mean? So in a way, [00:53:35] he’s broke that because you suddenly have these like, you know, typical like six pack, [00:53:40] six foot men, you know, like whatever people want to define as being physically masculine doing [00:53:45] like ice baths and breathwork, which I think is remarkable. It’s like a huge movement, you know? [00:53:50]

Speaker1: Yeah, I really see it happening. I think there’s a, um, an [00:53:55] asterix there as well from, From My side, which is, um, any of these practices [00:54:00] ice baths, ultramarathons, Wim Hof, breathwork, whatever it might be, are also [00:54:05] very good ways to escape what you’re feeling and more to numb from it and to [00:54:10] avoid from it. That to me, is is going. Intentionality is at the core here. [00:54:15] If you engage in any of these practices as simply a means to escape what’s going on inside your own head, and to [00:54:20] avoid the apparent discomfort or, um, apparent boredom of sitting still and [00:54:25] actually feeling what you’re feeling, then that, to me, is actually not what we’re aiming [00:54:30] for.

Speaker3: No, it’s I talk a lot about self-soothing, and it’s another method of self-soothing. I find it interesting [00:54:35] that as addicts as well replace their addiction with intense exercise. It’s just another [00:54:40] addiction. It’s another.

Speaker4: Escape. You can slow down your breathing by smoking. Mm.

Speaker3: Let’s talk about.

Speaker4: You can [00:54:45] slow down your breathing by breathing. You know, like by doing that exercise. Yeah.

Speaker3: Smoking in the breath. [00:54:50] Does it affect your breath? Work practice is the question. All right. We know what it does like in terms of like the body [00:54:55] you know but it will affect your breath work practice for sure.

Speaker1: I remember I created for an app a few years ago, a, [00:55:00] um, a breathwork session to help with quitting smoking. Amazing. And it was essentially [00:55:05] to try and replicate the breathing pattern that is done via smoking, because obviously there are [00:55:10] substances within a cigarette that are creating this feeling and this addiction. But [00:55:15] actually, um, there will also be the the slowness of the breath that will definitely be [00:55:20] playing a role within that. If we take out, you know, let’s say smoking was completely non harmful, [00:55:25] it would probably still create a level of relaxation through the time that you’re taking [00:55:30] for yourself and the speed at which you’re breathing. Um, that’s not an [00:55:35] advert for smoking. Um, but it’s, I guess, understanding [00:55:40] the motion, the motion understanding what’s going on, but also understanding. And this is where we get deeper into, [00:55:45] you know, trauma and addiction, but also understanding why what’s led somebody there and [00:55:50] a holding compassion for that, but be supporting them through that and going actually, what is [00:55:55] a what is a different and healthier outlet for this thing that is creating the habit? [00:56:00]

Speaker3: Let’s talk about about ice baths. Right. Because I started doing this, you know, Prav is obsessed. He like [00:56:05] spends like 10 to 15 minutes in that zero degrees. I’m literally two minutes and I cannot [00:56:10] put my hands in. Yeah, I’m sitting there like that on the side. But anyway, what’s the correlation [00:56:15] with breathwork and being in the ice bath? You know, like does it enhance your breathwork? [00:56:20] Because I naturally feel I go into a different breathwork as soon as I hit the water, just naturally [00:56:25] without. But that’s like an unconscious thing, if that makes sense. So, um, so [00:56:30] yeah, talk to us a little bit about ice baths and breathwork.

Speaker1: I have some strong opinions on ice baths. Um, I [00:56:35] use them, I advocate for them. I advocate for responsible use of ice baths. [00:56:40] Um, and I think there’s a fuck ton of irresponsible use of ice baths. And [00:56:45] to the point where people are going to start seeing a negative impact, in my [00:56:50] opinion. I think we’re going to I think we never hear about the stuff that’s already going wrong. But I think. Panic [00:56:55] attacks. Uh, if there’s not proper medical contraindications, exposed [00:57:00] people, you know, heart attacks in a very extreme case. Yeah, can.

Speaker3: Affect your fertility. Just question [00:57:05] like for men and women, because I think Huberman said, not Huberman. Someone said that for men it can actually affect [00:57:10] fertility.

Speaker1: So Spum cold is cold is good for spum count. Um, I would [00:57:15] say up to a point. Yeah. Um, and heat sauna, for example, is not is [00:57:20] not good for spum count. Um, that’s why the testicles are on the outside of the body rather than the inside [00:57:25] is because the cold is good. Um, I don’t know the direct kind of impact on on sperms fertility, [00:57:30] but cold. Good. Heat bad. Okay.

Speaker4: Um, do you find yourself. You must find yourself [00:57:35] having to talk about all sorts of realms outside of breathwork itself. [00:57:40]

Speaker1: Yeah, I think.

Speaker4: Having to educate yourself on these.

Speaker1: Absolutely. I think I, I [00:57:45] very much view breathwork as sort of the, the thing I, I teach and [00:57:50] the thing I talk about, but actually let’s, you know, I work with a 1 to 1 client. I’m talking to [00:57:55] them about their mindset, uh, their past, their childhood. I’m talking to them [00:58:00] about mainly we’re talking through the lens of the nervous system. So that’s I would view [00:58:05] the work as really working with the nervous system, which is where ice baths start to come in, where other practices start to come [00:58:10] in, and the concept of rest, the concept of resilience, all of this stuff, it’s sort of breath [00:58:15] as a gateway into a much broader conversation around the nervous system and those practices. But wait, I’m. [00:58:20]

Speaker3: Not done with the ice baths. Yeah, okay.

Speaker1: Come back to the ice baths. So getting into the [00:58:25] ice or let’s go use of ice baths first and then talk about the breath in relation to it. So [00:58:30] ice baths are an acute stressor. Anyone who’s gotten one will obviously know that [00:58:35] it’s stressful. Um, the view is that they can be used as a hormetic stressor, a positive [00:58:40] stressor, to create positive adaptations in the nervous system, in the body. And there are very well documented [00:58:45] benefits of ice baths in terms of the release of cold shock proteins, in [00:58:50] terms of nervous system resilience, in terms of energy, release of dopamine, all of the stuff that gets people [00:58:55] hooked and bought into it. Um, for me, I think the biggest benefits of [00:59:00] of ice baths come in the realm of, um. Psychological [00:59:05] resilience.

Speaker4: So I agree with you.

Speaker1: They always I don’t trust [00:59:10] anyone who says I love ice baths. What they really mean is I love how ice baths make me feel, [00:59:15] and I love that I feel mentally stronger as a result of getting into ice baths. The experience itself sucks [00:59:20] and.

Speaker3: I hated every minute of it.

Speaker1: But it’s about how you [00:59:25] relate to the conversation that goes on in your head around it. Because human talks about this [00:59:30] Hormozi talks about this. Chris Williamson talks about this. You are building a stack [00:59:35] of evidence that you can win the conversation with the voice in your head, that you’re building a stack of evidence that you can do [00:59:40] something, that ultimately your mind is telling you that you don’t want to do. And that is powerful. That, to [00:59:45] me, is is pretty much my main motivator for using ice baths and doing anything.

Speaker4: Is [00:59:50] there a way you should breathe before getting in?

Speaker1: So this is where it gets interesting because the Wim Hof [00:59:55] method. Let’s talk more about Wim. Um, the Wim Hof method is mainly based [01:00:00] around hyperventilation breathwork, and you’ll see people doing it before they get into the ice. I [01:00:05] get that as an experience and I’m trying to be balanced here. That will [01:00:10] psych you up for something like an ice bath. It’ll get you going, it’ll get you charged up, fired up and [01:00:15] go, I can do this just.

Speaker4: Quick and out and out and out. Is that what you mean by hyperventilation? Yes.

Speaker1: So [01:00:20] the Wim Hof breath would be. You’re really stimulating yourself. [01:00:25] I think that is the worst possible way you could breathe before an ice bath. Before? Yeah.

Speaker3: What about when you’re. [01:00:30]

Speaker1: In it during? Because actually, let’s take us through a process of getting into an ice bath for a normal person. [01:00:35] You step up towards the ice bath. Anticipation nerves. Your [01:00:40] breathing rate increases, your heart rate increases. You start to go into this fight flight response. [01:00:45] If you then hyperventilate, you’re going to put gas on a fire. And so [01:00:50] we want to breathe slowly. We want to regulate that nervous anxious response so that you’re more [01:00:55] calm getting into it. So slow your breathing down. Extend the exhale. Then when it comes to getting in, as you [01:01:00] perfectly described Rona, we get this natural innate gasp reflex that happens [01:01:05] for everybody. When you get into the cold, it will try and steal your breath, shoot it up right [01:01:10] into the upper chest and make you pant and gasp. So all we do. And this is how my [01:01:15] protocol for ice baths slow your breath down before, as you get ready to get in, take three [01:01:20] big clearing breaths like. On your fourth breath, [01:01:25] take a full inhale, hold at the top and as you step in and lower down, exhale [01:01:30] as slowly as gently as you can. And then your goal is to stay [01:01:35] with this slower breath as you can in through the nose, out of the mouth for the first 30 to 60s [01:01:40] the the test for me of how well someone can regulate themselves in the [01:01:45] face of stress is how well they can regulate their breath in an ice bath. So if you [01:01:50] can regulate your breathing, you’re able to regulate that shock response, that stress response. You’re able to stay [01:01:55] in for a little bit longer. Um, and the more you can slow your breath down, the better an [01:02:00] experience it’s going to be. You see people getting in, they’ve hyperventilated before they get in, and they’re hyperventilating [01:02:05] while they’re in there, and they come out and they might feel buzzed. They might feel alive and energised. [01:02:10] Talk to me in two hours and they’ll be knackered. They’ll [01:02:15] be drained, they’ll be withered.

Speaker3: And what’s the what about, what’s your thoughts on like the different protocols [01:02:20] of like then go from like that to a sauna or the other way around. Do you think there is, is there [01:02:25] evidence that there’s benefits to doing it with a sauna? And which way round is better for sure.

Speaker1: So sauna is [01:02:30] another, um, hormetic stressor, um, less acute, less direct than the [01:02:35] ice, but a really, I love the sauna. Me too. Arguably more than I.

Speaker3: I’m happy in the heat. I’m very happy [01:02:40] in the heat. So the heat is great.

Speaker1: It’s a great heart health number one for me, from a sauna perspective, [01:02:45] I mental clarity is just I get all of my best ideas in the sauna. [01:02:50] Um, but heart health, increasing circulation through the heat. Um, and it’s just really, [01:02:55] really well documented for cardiovascular health, um, in terms of use of ice and heat together. [01:03:00] Um, always the disclaimer around just safety and blood pressure is changing [01:03:05] a lot when you’re in the ice and when you’re in a sauna going in opposite, opposite directions. And people can have [01:03:10] quite negative experiences of significant drops in blood pressure if they’re moving too quickly between [01:03:15] the two and sort of recklessly between the two. That being said, if [01:03:20] I have an hour in our studio in Fulham downstairs, um, I will regularly do [01:03:25] 15 minutes in the sauna once two minute break outside of the sauna, [01:03:30] 90s to two minutes in the ice, 2 or 3 times through that kind of [01:03:35] protocol, which is a really great just stress resilience and recovery protocol. [01:03:40] It just I just I love it, it makes me feel great. But the key to this [01:03:45] conversation of any use of sauna, but particularly ice baths, is helping [01:03:50] people understand their own nervous system. So if you are someone you’re walking into a room [01:03:55] with an ice bath and you’ve had a really anxious, really stressful day, and I think [01:04:00] very carefully before you get into an ice bath, because you’re going to put a huge amount of stress on your already stressed.

Speaker1: System for [01:04:05] some people, and this is where we need to learn to to think for ourselves ultimately and take personal [01:04:10] responsibility for some people that will take the edge off their anxiety, because that’s just how [01:04:15] their system works. But for the majority of us, I would say you need to be able to listen to your own [01:04:20] nervous system and know how you’re going to dose the thing that you’re about to do accordingly. [01:04:25] So I’ll have days. I love an ice bath. I love the sauna. If I’m super wired, [01:04:30] super stressed, even if I want to get into the ice, I won’t get into the ice because [01:04:35] I don’t need that additional stress. And when I first discovered breathwork, one of the first [01:04:40] things I came to was the Wim Hof method. I was still struggling a lot with anxiety and [01:04:45] it made my anxiety worse. Now it sounds a little bit like I’m just slating the Wim Hof method. [01:04:50] It’s helped so many people. It’s a great pro, it’s.

Speaker3: Stressful for me.

Speaker1: It’s [01:04:55] highly stressful and it’s always presented as a cure all. If you’ve got [01:05:00] anxiety, do this and it will work.

Speaker3: But like you said, when you’re in a state of anxiety, my physiological state [01:05:05] is so stumped and so paralysed, the last thing I can do is like start doing things [01:05:10] like that. I need something to create calm. The breathwork space is obviously been [01:05:15] incredible and I really want to know what do you think the future of breathwork is? Because obviously, [01:05:20] you know, you’ve also done some incredible things on like TikTok, Instagram, everything like that. You see more in people emerging [01:05:25] in this space. But what do you see the future as a future?

Speaker1: Um, I [01:05:30] see a bright future, but I, I can [01:05:35] come through with sort of the, not the bearer of bad news, but just with a slightly more, [01:05:40] I hope, realistic lens for this work, which is, um, you could say [01:05:45] this about a lot of fields and how they’re presented on social media, but, um, as [01:05:50] people flood to breathwork, I think that’s happening because it’s very accessible and it is very powerful. And [01:05:55] we’re seeing that in the research. And the anecdotal evidence is that it has for myself, for [01:06:00] thousands of people I’ve worked with, had a very positive impact. That being said, [01:06:05] I will never, ever operate in the realm of absolute, so I will never say it works for everybody. I will never say it will always, [01:06:10] you know, it will cure your anxiety, it will do this. It will do that because that would be dishonest. [01:06:15] Ultimately, I think it can play a very pivotal, key role in the overall [01:06:20] support of the of society in how we regulate our nervous systems, [01:06:25] how we tap into rest, how we find more balance. The space itself is [01:06:30] growing so quickly that we are due a reset. I think there’s a bubble that will burst at some point. [01:06:35] Um, you’re getting people misrepresenting things, running poor, [01:06:40] poor certifications, poor trainings, um, that are, [01:06:45] you know, I trained for, for from a conscious connected breathwork therapeutic breathwork perspective for [01:06:50] six months, part time. Um, and there are now trainings that you can do purely online that you get [01:06:55] a certification after a day.

Speaker1: It’s a very unregulated space, a little bit like life coaching. [01:07:00] There’s a lot of people doing a lot of good, but there’s also people looking to make a huge amount of money, as [01:07:05] with anything in capitalism. So I think this for me, for anybody listening, [01:07:10] is not a case of don’t buy the hype about breathwork because I think it is amazing and [01:07:15] I think there’s so much good to be done, so much good that can be gained. But it’s [01:07:20] a buyer beware thing. It’s, you know, look into the facilitator, the practitioner [01:07:25] who you’re going to be working with, look at their credentials, their certifications and [01:07:30] look to them as a person. I think the difference that I’ve seen, you know, [01:07:35] five years ago, getting into this space, there was such a small group of practitioners, [01:07:40] I could have counted them on one hand, and everybody knew everybody, and it was all people who had [01:07:45] either been in this space for a very long time or who similar to me. It had such a profound [01:07:50] impact on personally that we felt compelled to share it. You’re now getting people, and I see this across wellness [01:07:55] as a whole, coming into this space, because they think they’re going to make money and actually in [01:08:00] a service led, purpose led, um, practice where you’re supporting people, where it’s therapeutic. [01:08:05] Ultimately, that won’t fly.

Speaker3: You know what, you say that, right? But I was [01:08:10] really shocked because about ten years ago, I had a couple of yoga instructors as clients. And [01:08:15] I always thought anybody that goes into yoga is surely a very like conscious human [01:08:20] being with really great, like morals and values. And actually, I was totally shocked to find [01:08:25] that wasn’t the case. And I think I was naive to believe that when someone dedicates their life to [01:08:30] practices that have been built out of healing, they’re all like that. But as you said, like capitalism, now [01:08:35] I have a really sour my taste. I really don’t like yoga, like I.

Speaker4: Know what it is. There’s a lot of fuckery. [01:08:40]

Speaker3: Yeah, there is.

Speaker4: There is around wellness. But when you.

Speaker3: Say it won’t fly, it will fly [01:08:45] because there’s loads of.

Speaker4: Alienation, right? I mean, there’s a lot of bullshit out there. There’s. [01:08:50]

Speaker1: And this is what makes me sad is that, um, we say buyer beware, but I think [01:08:55] people are can be easily led when they’re looking.

Speaker3: For something vulnerable.

Speaker1: When they’re vulnerable and looking for support, [01:09:00] they will turn to someone who is saying the right things. And that is where that. That is why I think the bubble [01:09:05] will at some point burst, because I think and there are things that are known in the breathwork world and [01:09:10] that haven’t quite gone because it’s not quite big enough yet of, you know, long standing [01:09:15] practitioners who have had cases brought against them for misconduct, you know. Yeah, there’s there’s [01:09:20] some there’s not a huge amount, but I think there will be more because people are vulnerable. People [01:09:25] are being put into vulnerable states, all the states of consciousness. And I do think there [01:09:30] will be, as with everything, because humanity has a shadow collectively and individually, [01:09:35] there will be more that comes to the surface. Absolutely.

Speaker4: Yeah. But you know, the nature of [01:09:40] social and algorithms. I mean, in our space, we’ve got a company [01:09:45] who makes a teeth whitening product that doesn’t whiten teeth. Um, but they [01:09:50] turn over half $1 billion a year. Oh, I know what you’re talking about.

Speaker3: The TikTok brand.

Speaker4: Yeah, [01:09:55] and the purple.

Speaker1: The purple one.

Speaker4: Yeah, but you know, now, by the way, we shouldn’t [01:10:00] as dentists, we sort of we measure the colour of teeth and we’re and we have to remember when someone’s [01:10:05] buying that and using that. It’s not necessarily looking for what me and you are looking [01:10:10] for. Yeah. Because it’s the execution is actually very good on those products. Right. They taste good. [01:10:15] They feel good. They click. Well, you know, a lot of times when you use makeup or whatever, you know, it’s [01:10:20] it’s all of that you’re buying into, you’re buying into all of that.

Speaker3: You’re buying into the experience.

Speaker4: But what my point is the [01:10:25] truth doesn’t always out.

Speaker1: Mhm. Yeah I would, I would agree with you on that as well I [01:10:30] think um yeah I think it’s going to be a very interesting time for the space. There’s, I [01:10:35] tell you the biggest thing that I see at the moment and it’s each to their own, but um, [01:10:40] particularly with these transformative kind of deeper modalities of breathwork, the experience can be very [01:10:45] emotional, very cathartic, can be quite physical. I’ve had people in sessions before where if you’re from [01:10:50] the outside looking in, you’d be like, that person is having an exorcism. You know, they’re vibrating, they’re shaking, they’re [01:10:55] releasing. I’ve seen it in Jamie’s classes. That is part of it. But [01:11:00] what we see on social media, from accounts that have blown up as a result of this kind of content, because [01:11:05] it’s how social works, um, real up close and personal videos [01:11:10] of experiences like that. And I call it catharsis porn because it’s just promoting this, [01:11:15] like arguably quite unrealistic expectation of what a breathwork experience will be. [01:11:20] And it can be off putting for people because they’re like, I’m scared of that. It can set people’s expectations [01:11:25] too high because they’re like, I need that, and I this is where [01:11:30] I know I sometimes shoot myself in the foot from a, particularly [01:11:35] from a social perspective, but from a marketing perspective more broadly, because I think I [01:11:40] personally believe and other people are entitled to their opinion that we as practitioners have a duty of responsibility [01:11:45] in how we talk about these things, how we promote these things, the language we use, the [01:11:50] expectations we set, and really just holding yourself accountable for to. And [01:11:55] I think a lot of these people believe their own hype. Right. And so they don’t think they’re lying. They [01:12:00] don’t think they get into a state.

Speaker3: You know, it’s like cognitive dissonance. They start really like [01:12:05] believing the things that they say. And I genuinely think and we talked already about [01:12:10] I was telling Payman about on another podcast about how I went to go see The Picture of Dorian Grey, and [01:12:15] it was the best production I’ve ever seen. It was incredible. She got a standing ovation by the entire theatre [01:12:20] was Sarah Snook that played 26 roles. But the point is, nothing’s actually changed. And they were really clever because [01:12:25] when she looked in the mirror, she turned into all the filters on Instagram and was like loving her [01:12:30] own appearance as Dorian. And I was like, but that’s it. Like people love. There’s this, like, self-congratulatory [01:12:35] thing. And especially if a video goes viral on Instagram, you’re like, I have to keep [01:12:40] living this lie. There was a documentary.

Speaker4: Sometimes the genius is in the storytelling. [01:12:45]

Speaker3: Yeah, 100%.

Speaker4: But some people have that genius. Doesn’t mean they necessarily [01:12:50] know about breath. Yeah, but they know how to tell a story about breath.

Speaker3: Yeah, but I think it’s that transparency, [01:12:55] because even some of the most notorious podcasts that are out there at the moment are getting a lot of backlash. I’m not [01:13:00] going to name any names, but they’re getting backlash because also, um, they are bringing [01:13:05] on experts that don’t are not actually good enough to like, comment. [01:13:10] So, for example, recently a big podcaster got hate because he’s getting scientists to comment [01:13:15] on diet. And the nutritionists out there are like, no, but that’s wrong because the scientist would be like, I’m happy you’re [01:13:20] better off drinking like a glass of full fat Coke instead of some orange juice from a sugar perspective. [01:13:25] But the point is, the nutritionist like, but we’re not just looking at sugar content calorie. We’re looking at like [01:13:30] other things as well. So again, I’ve always said this to you like nuanced thinking is becoming [01:13:35] less and less and polarising content is becoming more and more, and that’s creating more and [01:13:40] more division. And we’re not seeing it just on social media opinions we’re seeing even in politics. How does someone like [01:13:45] Trump rise to the top polarising, you know, Brexit, polarising? Do you see what I [01:13:50] mean? And that’s the problem because it’s the nuanced thinking that is going to divide us.

Speaker1: It’s my least [01:13:55] favourite thing about social media and arguably the world, because it is [01:14:00] robbing people. They’re allowed, people are allowing. Themselves to be robbed of personal [01:14:05] responsibility. They want to be told what to think. So [01:14:10] someone comes to me. Will breathwork cure my anxiety? I’ll go. [01:14:15] I’ll give you a full, balanced, nuanced answer that says it depends on the root cause. [01:14:20] It depends on x, y, z. They don’t want to know. And they’re like, oh, I just wanted to [01:14:25] hear yes, yes. And it’s the same like I the big podcast that [01:14:30] I do name, not normally in these conversations, but.

Speaker3: You know what I’m talking about. Yeah. Oh [01:14:35] absolutely.

Speaker1: Diary of a CEO. So, um, there is, [01:14:40] there is a breathwork episode by with a guy called James Nester, who has [01:14:45] written arguably the pivotal book in the breathwork space. A fantastic book has done so [01:14:50] much for this space, and he’s a fantastic writer and a fantastic advocate for this work. [01:14:55] However, that podcast creates circumstances for people [01:15:00] where they say things that if you really again dig into the weeds, you go, I can see [01:15:05] how he’s got there, but there’s so much more to it. And again, I think there’s a duty of responsibility [01:15:10] to say to present a fuller picture. So his big one is, you know, 99% [01:15:15] of the population have dysfunctional breathing. I get what he means. But if [01:15:20] we’re talking about diagnosed dysfunctional breathing, it’s closer to 35%. What he actually means is that the remaining [01:15:25] 64% of those could be breathing better. We as a population could be breathing [01:15:30] better. But to sit there outright and say 99% of the population have dysfunctional breathing [01:15:35] is it creates fear in people. The thing is, when.

Speaker4: You’re an expert in anything, you [01:15:40] can critique in a different way.

Speaker3: I mean, I got hate recently. He knows.

Speaker4: This. Yeah, [01:15:45] but but but it’s just the nature, I think when you’re an expert in something, then whatever, when [01:15:50] when you see someone else talking about that, you can, you can pick holes in it because you’re the expert in that [01:15:55] thing I’m quite interested in. It’s obvious just looking at you. It’s obvious you’re in a place of [01:16:00] sort of authenticity, and you seem very comfortable in this space. What do [01:16:05] your previous peers think of you now? Some of them, not understandably. Someone going from a tech [01:16:10] Start-Up business to to this.

Speaker1: It brings up interesting [01:16:15] things for me because I have learned a lesson in myself, arguably [01:16:20] the hard way, over the last couple of years, which is that I social [01:16:25] media played a role in this. My work played a role in this. I, I lived as my [01:16:30] what I used to call breathwork Jamie, which was the persona that I was presenting on [01:16:35] social, the version of me that showed up in my work, which is a real version of me, but it’s not all of me. [01:16:40] And actually, um, I still have friends from my last company that I worked at, my friends [01:16:45] from university. We talk about it, um, [01:16:50] but I would say, actually, there’s a, a version of me, a part of me, um, [01:16:55] that really values not being this, this version of me all the time. [01:17:00] Yeah. I’m able to a bit like what you were saying in terms of the people we meet in London, the network [01:17:05] we have, we’ve got to.

Speaker3: You’ve got.

Speaker1: You. It’s not inauthentic. And I had this a really long conversation [01:17:10] with an amazing musician, very famous musician, about this the other day is not [01:17:15] inauthentic to show up differently in different circumstances. You think [01:17:20] you go home for Christmas, you see your family. That’s a different version of you to the one that goes out on a night out [01:17:25] with your friends that’s not inauthentic. That is different parts of you showing up at different times and parts.

Speaker3: Work is [01:17:30] so pivotal to that. Parts work. Yeah, parts work helps you accept. So I did a lot [01:17:35] with Ella. Ella is my therapist has come on here as well. So it’s like we all have different parts of ourself. And then you basically [01:17:40] when you work with a therapist for example, you see those different parts of yourself, you observe those parts of yourself [01:17:45] and you actually don’t judge parts of yourself. But in some sessions I was also the judge. And that makes [01:17:50] you kind of more accepting to things, and it doesn’t make you try to change so fundamentally who [01:17:55] you are, because we’re always. When I first met Jamie, for example, I was literally like, I have to put in the [01:18:00] work because I have to be this thing. You know, I met Jamie and Louis and all these people, and I [01:18:05] was like, I need to be them. They’re like the beacon of knowledge, and they’re like living and breathing [01:18:10] this, like, wellness thing. And I was like, but then I’m like this established dentist with this. [01:18:15] And I was like, where am I? And then, like, parts work made me realise, like, there are different [01:18:20] parts to myself. And look, don’t get me wrong, I have often thought to myself is the only way to find that [01:18:25] true happiness. To quit it all, sell my practice, move to Costa Rica, live with those jungle [01:18:30] people in this beautiful retreat. Do you know what I mean? And the hummingbird. And then I realised that, you [01:18:35] know, you don’t have to.

Speaker1: It’s awareness and acceptance. Like there’s a big piece of this with this part [01:18:40] stuff. Because I remember I went for dinner with some friends of mine that I used to work with, um, and [01:18:45] I was this was a couple of years ago, and I can have a very dark sense of humour, [01:18:50] and I made this very dark joke a bit close to the line. And one of the guys who I’ve known for a really [01:18:55] long time, he’s a great guy, turned to me and goes, that’s not very on brand. And my heart sank [01:19:00] because that was my that was of my own making, because. I, in [01:19:05] every aspect of my life, was trying to show up as breathwork. Jamie. I was trying to be, you know, present [01:19:10] and calm, balanced and namaste and a bit woo woo. And I [01:19:15] have that side to me. You know, I can draw a tarot card and really get into it. I can have a conversation at [01:19:20] a plant medicine experience and really go into that with someone. And I can also go and watch a rugby match with [01:19:25] my mate, drink a couple of beers, swear a bit. You know, all of these aspects, you know, it’s not a great example. [01:19:30] But yeah, that to me is that to me is authenticity.

Speaker1: Isn’t [01:19:35] it acknowledgement that I’m so, so multifaceted and there’s so many [01:19:40] different parts to me that can show up in different ways when they’re brought out of me by different people. You know, [01:19:45] I’ve always viewed myself as adaptable, but I don’t even think it’s that. It’s just I there’s [01:19:50] a self behind the identity. There is a pure awareness, present awareness [01:19:55] of self that has values, that has, um, an [01:20:00] understanding of the world and how I operate and an energy. And then [01:20:05] there are the layers and the masks that get stacked up on top of that. You know, I was the rugby player, [01:20:10] I was the tech guy, I was the business founder, I was the breathwork guy. I was [01:20:15] the the healer, the therapist. All of these things and all of those have been true at different points. And [01:20:20] it’s actually in trying to reject those. And I was writing the other day about this notion of [01:20:25] if your personal development journey is contingent upon an old self that you are [01:20:30] trying to run away from, then you will continue to suffer just in a different form because that is rejection [01:20:35] of parts. I tried for a very long time to run away from [01:20:40] any kind of entrepreneurial nature, any kind of businessman, any kind of drive, [01:20:45] any kind of ambition, because I thought that hurt me previously, but [01:20:50] that wasn’t what was hurting me previously.

Speaker1: And actually in the last year, and part of what I was saying at the top around my [01:20:55] ambition for this business has come as a result of reintegrating and re [01:21:00] accepting those parts of myself that are driven, that are ambitious, that love big [01:21:05] picture business, creative thinking and being entrepreneurial. And how can I [01:21:10] quite powerfully integrate that with the spiritual, with the emotional, [01:21:15] with the vulnerable and those two together? To me, that lights me up when those two parts of me are aligned, [01:21:20] when I’m in my vulnerability and my authenticity. And I’m also coming up with this huge [01:21:25] idea of where I want to take this business, I feel my best, rather than thinking [01:21:30] it has to be either or, rather than if I’m spiritual. I can’t be ambitious, I can’t want this. I [01:21:35] can’t like material things, all of that stuff. And that’s different for everybody. And [01:21:40] often the judgement that shows up in us is actually a judgement. It’s our shadow. You know, if there’s [01:21:45] a part of me that triggers you, you’re that’s a part of yourself that you are pushing [01:21:50] away and rejecting. Yeah.

Speaker3: And I get that a lot in dentistry. It’s like you can’t be glamorous, fashionable [01:21:55] and creative and then be the science person that’s going to be, like, taken seriously.

Speaker4: Exactly. [01:22:00] That was a beautiful monologue, man.

Speaker3: Thank you. Yeah, I love it. Look, he’s so touched. So, [01:22:05] Jamie, I could literally sit and talk to you for, like, hours and hours. And I want [01:22:10] to end on a note of for those people. And we’ve talked about this before, for those people, especially [01:22:15] dentistry, with being such a, um, stressful career, how can they integrate [01:22:20] very simple breathwork that’s realistic into their daily routine or even [01:22:25] during their time in the dental practice? You know, there’s.

Speaker4: Times Mark was talking about every time we’ve got [01:22:30] this light that makes the cures the filling material. It’s like 20s. [01:22:35] And she was saying she breathe through it. She was saying, every time you push that button, breathe, breathe for that 20s. [01:22:40] And it’s such a brilliant idea because dentists are doing that.

Speaker3: 20 [01:22:45] times a day, 20 times a day.

Speaker4: 20 times a day regulating your breath.

Speaker3: Yeah, but let’s give us a tip.

Speaker1: I’d be really curious [01:22:50] to see if you remember this, because I use you as an example all the time. Um, because [01:22:55] it was a conversation I had with you when we were doing the 1 to 1 work, and you asked me a very similar [01:23:00] question, like, how do I actually make this stick? Like, how does this come into my life? And I said [01:23:05] in the, in the clinic between every client, yeah, you did two, three minutes. Slow [01:23:10] your breath down, don’t scroll, don’t have a chat. Stop, pause and breathe. [01:23:15] And that has now become I always talk about my old client and friend, this dentist [01:23:20] that I worked with. I presented her this example of of basically breathing breaks and actually [01:23:25] making use of the dead time. I was in a cab on the way here, stuck in traffic. I’d [01:23:30] been busy, I was doing a few emails, and I was like, actually, no. I want to feel quite calm and present coming into this. [01:23:35] I’m going to do five minutes of slow, steady breathing. So for me, that applies in every [01:23:40] aspect of life. You know, in between meetings, in between calls [01:23:45] on the tube. This is so beautifully accessible and as a [01:23:50] result, pivotal because you’ve got no excuse. You don’t have to. It’s great if you can. [01:23:55] And if you do, sit down, carve out ten 15 minutes in the morning throughout the day, sit in [01:24:00] your lotus pose and do your breath work.

Speaker1: Fantastic. Really? For practice, because you’re cultivating that [01:24:05] additional stillness and creating time for yourself, that it becomes infinitely easier [01:24:10] if your nervous system is regulated. If your nervous system is dysregulating, you’re in overdrive. Carving [01:24:15] out that time is going to feel impossible. So start small. Build it up. Compound. As you said, [01:24:20] pushing that button so many times a day. If you breathe through every single one of those for 20s, [01:24:25] you’re going to build up some some compound interest. And that to me is the power because you’re redirecting. [01:24:30] You’re taking yourself off autopilot. And that to me is is at the core of my business [01:24:35] at the moment is creating tools and techniques and experiences [01:24:40] to take people off autopilot, because that is where things get tricky. That’s where we burn out, that’s where [01:24:45] we face challenges, and that’s where we can come back to actually this vicious versus virtuous cycle [01:24:50] of autonomy. Self-actualisation creating your own reality [01:24:55] or living on autopilot, burning out, realising too late that you’ve burnt out. Resetting [01:25:00] the dial, going again. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that would be the biggest one, I think, for, for people [01:25:05] listening to this is where in your day, as it currently stands, can you integrate this [01:25:10] rather than trying to change how your day is playing out? And funnily enough, if you can do that, [01:25:15] you will change the way that your day plays out.

Speaker3: Yeah, I love that so much. You can find Jamie. As I said, [01:25:20] um, the breath space on Instagram and TikTok. Is that your TikTok handle or is it?

Speaker1: No, I’m so [01:25:25] lazy with TikTok. I have to be honest, I.

Speaker3: Love his TikToks, actually. Um, but thank you so [01:25:30] much. It’s been so incredible and as always, so inspiring. I’ve never seen Payman get emotional, [01:25:35] so we know that we’ve done well here. Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. [01:25:40]