[00:00:00] But, you know, I respect I respect people who do that, you see, because there’s some great clinicians who are doing these full arch reconstructions all day long, like like leech, like other people. And I see some, a lot of the people I work with, how people are doing, all of us, and they’re doing it to a really high level. And what I respect is that they turn around and say, Well, actually, can you come in and do this case for me and I’ll crack on and do what I did? I think that’s the most sensible way. It’s like things that I don’t do, like I don’t. This is my skill set doing full, which is doing implants. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. Yeah, I’ll do something else. I’m not going to give it. I’m not good enough. Even if a family member of mine comes to me and need something done, I will refer to the best person I know. It’s not me, of course. Why would I want to do that? And same with when it comes to Zigomanis, when it comes to, you know, if people are not doing all on force. The other thing is, is that people have really changed. You know, if you think about years ago and I don’t know if I’m sounding old now, so you can tell me I am. But you know what they say back in my day.

[00:01:01] But when I was a lad.

[00:01:03] When I was a lad, I used to be sitting there watching people I’d travelled to anywhere in the country and watch people do surgery.

[00:01:10] Because before me.

[00:01:11] I was hungry for it. Yeah, right now trying to get somebody to stay in the room while I’m teaching them how to do surgery free of charge.

[00:01:21] They’ve got better places to be, haven’t they? They.

[00:01:28] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:45] It gives me great pleasure to introduce Dr. Risk side on the Dental Leaders podcast. Memories go back many, many years. Dr. Written Patel actually was probably my first client in the dental space. We started by designing a website for him, doing some marketing for him. But one of the things about.

[00:02:06] Ritson is he’s a.

[00:02:08] Bloody perfectionist and he wants the best for himself and he wants the best for his patients and nothing less than the best is good enough for written. And so when he decided to get an implant surgeon on board at the Mulberry Dental Practice, Risk was.

[00:02:25] His first.

[00:02:25] Choice. And I just remember having conversations with Britton at.

[00:02:30] The time.

[00:02:31] And he just used to talk about how skilled Riz was, how amazing he was as an implant surgeon. And then as I started losing my hair, me and risk started to have more and more in common. And Riz, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you on. And obviously, since 15 years or so past, when we first crossed paths back in the day, you know, I’ve seen you grow your career grow and you’re doing great things in the world of implant dentistry from speaking, lecturing, representing various companies, but also working in some of the top practices, doing a high level of implant dentistry, including including the practices that I co-own with my colleagues as well. But before we get stuck into all of that, something about your childhood, your back story where you grew up, just take us back to the beginning.

[00:03:21] May Well Prav Thank you so much for having me here. Honestly, it’s a great pleasure. I’ve seen the work that you’ve done and you’re right over the last 15 years, seeing what you’ve done in your career and how you’ve contribute towards the dental world, it’s it’s really nice to see and also it’s really nice to reconnect with you. And I think over the last few years as we have reconnected, I think it’s become a very personal thing. And I think away from dentistry as well, we have a lot in common and same outlooks in life.

[00:03:48] So same haircut.

[00:03:50] Same haircut, which I think, you know, not many people can carry off like we do. So it’s it’s a great pleasure to be here. Going back to my childhood, I grew up, I’m the youngest of four.

[00:04:03] And.

[00:04:04] I grew up in in Finsbury Park. My dad was an immigrant, came here in the sixties and he was around during the partition of 47. So he moved from India to Pakistan where they were relatively wealthy. But at the age of 15, he moved over and lost everything and he was the eldest of all his siblings and his mum was quite ill. He lost his dad when he was 15 during the partition time. So his aspirations of becoming a doctor had to be put aside and he had to do the best he could for his siblings. And he came here in the sixties and then we grew up in Islington. He wanted his children to do to do well, as any immigrant father would. And so it was always a case of studying and it was always a case of working hard. Not many extracurricular curricular activities. We moved in the eighties to my dad, thought Islington was quite rough at the time and then decided to move to Romford in Essex, which was a very bad sort of territory at the time. So you going from a rough area to then getting chased around by skinners, which I thought wasn’t the best move. And you know, we didn’t have money growing up.

[00:05:24] My dad used to be a bus driver and my mum used to sew clothes for a living and we went to a normal, comprehensive school, which wasn’t great, but my brother worked very hard. He was four years older than me and he went to med school. My sister then followed and then as being the youngest, I didn’t know what to do with my life, but it was almost a case of I was almost left to my own devices being the youngest of four. So with my brothers and sisters, they were very you know, my dad used to drive them around, make sure they had their fees paid, everything was done, you know, and they had a good upbringing. So did I. I’m not complaining with that. But as he got to the youngest of four, there was a point in our time where my dad lost a lot of money. We didn’t have much to spend. So I became very independent from a very early age and, you know, trying to finance my own self, trying to make sure I wasn’t a burden on the family. And I wanted to work when I was 15, but my dad made me go back and study.

[00:06:21] So going back to, you know, your dad couldn’t afford to go to med school. Obviously, circumstances were such that that.

[00:06:28] Life had handed.

[00:06:29] In that deck of cards where it wasn’t in his fate. Right. And do you think that’s what your your siblings were doing? Just sort of fulfilling that. That dream of your dad’s was that was that it was for me, right? So growing up. My dad was a shopkeeper, taxi driver. My mom was sewing clothes. So and and the constant message that we used to receive.

[00:06:55] Back then.

[00:06:57] Was the reason I’m working so hard. Right? The reason I do.

[00:07:01] I do is.

[00:07:01] I don’t want you to do what I do. I want a better life for you.

[00:07:05] Yeah.

[00:07:06] And for, you know. What did our parents know back then? It was. It was doctor, dentist, lawyer, whatever. You know, we all laugh and joke about this. You know, if you’re Asian and whatnot, there’s only a handful of careers for you. But, you know, that’s what they knew and certainly from their generation doctor came with a lot of respect. Yeah, there was there was not.

[00:07:28] Only the the.

[00:07:29] Career and that, but there was. It was highly regarded and there was a lot of respect. Right. So, you know, the reason I went into my career is I wouldn’t like to say I was pushed into it, but I was definitely encouraged.

[00:07:41] By my.

[00:07:42] Dad and and I wanted.

[00:07:43] To I.

[00:07:44] Wanted to.

[00:07:44] Fulfil his dream.

[00:07:46] Definitely did. Right. And so what what was the message growing up to you from Dad in those early years about education?

[00:07:54] It was exactly that. It was it was all about education. It was always it was always about, look, I’ve come over here to make a better life for you. You know, he’s shifts and double shifts used to do on the buses was the fact that he was saying, look, I’m working hard so you could get an education and you don’t end up doing what I do. And it was to actually please him. But also parenting was very different back then. It was your dad was your dad. He wasn’t your friend. You didn’t go and confide in him. He just told you what to do. And you pretty much got on and and did that. And also he was looking back, I mean, I sometimes have that where he was very, very strict, more so than necessary. And, you know, we joke about the belts and we joke about things like that. But that’s the way that’s the reality. You know, you’ve got to slap around the head or you got a good beating.

[00:08:44] I was I was going to tell you right. As soon as you said that, you know, parenting was different. You didn’t confide in your parents. Right. But you did what you were told, though. You got up. Yeah.

[00:08:57] Even if you did something, you still got a temper for doing it wrong. So, yeah, either way, you always got a beating. It was just constantly around the corner and you never knew which one you were going to get. Yeah. So and kind.

[00:09:10] Of.

[00:09:11] Being the youngest of the four I used to get, it sometimes works the other way around, but I got blamed for everything that went wrong to the point where I just thought, you know, at the age of 15 I was quite happy if I could leave home and and do something else. It’s only because I decided that I needed to do something with my life, that I wanted to do something related to, to medicine. And although people have this this idea that if you you want to go into medicine first and then you go into dentistry afterwards, it wasn’t that way for me. It was only because a friend of mine was in dentistry and said, Look, it’s a pretty good career. And I thought, Well, you know what? Why not? I got pretty decent A-levels, you know, I did chemistry, biology, physics, got good grades and thought, okay, well, let’s apply for dentistry. But it was almost like going into dental school on the first day and looking around thinking, I don’t belong here genuinely. I looked around, I thought, You know what? I’m I’ve come from that background. I shouldn’t really be here.

[00:10:04] You didn’t follow in your in your siblings footsteps and go down medicine right. You went for dentistry was when did you realise that this is what I want to do when I don’t want to do medicine for whatever reason. Right. And what was the general.

[00:10:20] Take on it? To be honest with you, I didn’t actually I wasn’t really thinking too far ahead if I’m honest. I was working part time in a shop when I was 15. I was making a bit of money. I was quite happy with that. It’s only because my dad gave me a good beating a couple of times and also watching my brother’s game. My brother was four years older, so he was already in med school and he said, Listen, do something that you’re going to enjoy. It doesn’t have to be medicine. Look at something that is science related and also potentially had the reputation of any good money. I’m working less hours, so there was that where you could do something medical related. So it’s still a prestigious job, something more creative. And I think that came from the fact that I was I was very hands on with DIY back in the day when when our parents were, you know, building things they never called builders in. They always expected you to help them. And, you know, there’s a great story where we had an uncle who I don’t even know where this uncle had come from and decided he was a conductor on a bus.

[00:11:23] But my dad decided he was going to change a gas metre as you do. And I honestly this is you think this is a weird situation, but my dad said I could smell gas and my dad had had his head. Under the stairs and my uncle lit a match and the whole thing blew and the hole. Honestly, I remember being thrown across the room and my dad came out with no eyebrows and this is what we were doing as Asians. We were literally doing things ourselves and I was very hands on with that. So it became a very practical thing. So because of a friend of mine, I said, Look, I’m there. It’s going to be good. I thought, Yeah, that would be a nice thing to do. So it wasn’t even a case of medicine or danger. I thought it would be a good career to get into. And that’s why I applied for for dental school.

[00:12:08] Moral of the story. Don’t ask your boss conductor to change your gas metre.

[00:12:12] Yeah, it’s. It’s a rookie mistake. I wouldn’t do that.

[00:12:16] So what was your first exposure to dentistry risk? Was it was it work experience somewhere during A-levels or college or whatever it was back in the day?

[00:12:25] Yeah, it was. So during the A-levels when when we had to do some work experience, I went to a local dental practice and saw them do some do a root canal and some fillings wasn’t wasn’t very inspiring, to be honest with you. I just sat in the corner and watch somebody there for an hour and a half, 2 hours doing something with the teeth. Yeah, exactly. It it’s like, okay, I’ve tick the box, I’ve done my work experience and I applied to do a work experience in a hospital as well. I thought I might try that. I ended up on a urology ward watching tubes being put in places that you don’t really want to see as a as a 16 year old. Yeah. So it was either that or dentistry. So I thought, you know, I’d rather work in the mouth. Yeah. And that was, and that was my work experience. Yeah. I think I spent two weeks there.

[00:13:13] And then so take it you did quite well academically back then. You needed I think we’re of a similar age. You needed decent grades to get in, right?

[00:13:21] Yeah. You need a decent grade. I mean I was predicted I think I was predicted three A’s or two A’s and a B and I ended up getting A into BS, I think chemistry, biology and physics. So I’ve got my grades because back then, remember when people talk about grades, my sister going to med school at UCL with three C’s, she was her offer, she got three A’s, but her offer was three C’s. And my brother for med school at St Barts was there being two C’s. So, you know, it doesn’t make him any less. And that’s why it’s always amazing when you talk about now A’s and A’s stars. I have no concept of that. But yeah, I got my grades, so I took a year, I got my grades and then I applied because it wasn’t the first thing I applied for. I just wanted to do my A-levels first and then I got my grades.

[00:14:07] So what happened during that time? So you took a year out. What happened? You you applied for something else and then, you.

[00:14:13] Know, I just I worked and and I went to college to do my A-levels did one retake. But the rest of the time I was working. So I was quite happy to have that year to actually figure out a if I get the grades because I to be honest with you, if you go back to schooling times, it’s not like now when I look at my boys and they go to a very nurturing sort of school and they’re very hands on, you know, and they very, you know, they have all these different people who help them get through, whether it’s their handwriting, whatever it is. Yeah. You know, and if you are because I was quite hyperactive as a child, my concentration span during that time, you know, I was intelligent enough, but I just I couldn’t concentrate on things for too long. So I remember being told, you know, you can’t do your A-levels, you can’t do maths, you should go and start working when you’re 15. You know, that was the kind of the way schools were. So I was told I shouldn’t do A-levels or I couldn’t definitely do physics. And because physics, you know, you need a good understanding of maths. And they said my math wasn’t great. So I thought, let me get my A-levels, see what grade I get, and then I can decide whether I’ve got good enough grades. And I did end up doing that.

[00:15:20] And then which dental.

[00:15:21] School did you go to it? So I went to it was the Royal London at the time that then merged with Queen Mary’s and merged with Barts. So it’s very much I think we were the last year the Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry and then St Barts that then combined in the second year with Queen Mary’s and we all became affiliated together. But it was it was the Royal London I applied to.

[00:15:44] And so tell us about give us a potted history about dental school. What was it like for you? Were you were you one of these geeky students who who was always stood in a way, we love party animal. Just give us a give us a potted history of what university was like the royal.

[00:15:59] Risk for me, I think I went a bit crazy because it was almost and you see this a lot when you’re in a very strict household, when you’re not allowed to go out much, you know, it’s not like people would go arm going clubbing when they’re 15. So we weren’t allowed to do that. No, no, exactly. No. So you suddenly go to suddenly living away from home and you have this freedom that you’ve never experienced before. So you end up going a bit crazy. And I ended up, you know, I used to play a lot. We used to have a great club scene in London. So I still organise a lot of the club nights, you know, literally from Monday to Friday. I could tell you exactly what club was playing. Be sustainable clubs. So, yes, I was there, but I didn’t really, to be honest with you, go too much to too many lectures. You could get your friends to sign you in and at the end of the day, you could just copy their notes and then just get through. And that’s what I did for for the first and second year clinical wise, again, being on clinic, I wasn’t really the only thing I actually really enjoyed, to be honest with you, was over surgery. Everything else just didn’t really excite me. So trying to get my trying to get my figures done by numbers of how many root canals and how many I was well below par or surgery I’d finished. By the time I was the fourth year, I’d finish all my requirements. So, you know, it was dental school was great. I really enjoyed the freedom. I really enjoyed the game to kind of figure out what I want to do and kind of knowing myself. But you don’t get a chance when you’re in a a house, sort of, you know, many different personalities and you’re the youngest. It’s very difficult to kind of figure out what your what your own personality is about or it’s like.

[00:17:46] Even being brought up in that environment that I’m very familiar with. Right. That that was really strict. Right. It sounds like very similar to you. Right. And what was clear is that when I started university, I knew how to clean the house and I’d do the laundry and wash my clothes. I knew how to make my own bed. I knew how to iron my own. I knew all that like all of that was second nature. I knew it, but I didn’t know how to pass it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bloody hell. Did I make up for lost time the day I arrived? Yeah. And similar to you, right? I went notes and I remember those, you know, I think freshest week carried on for a year for me. Right. And, and it was literally day in, day out. And I remember we were coming up to our end of year exams with all the medics, and I didn’t hang around with the medics because they were too busy working. So I hung out with the historians and the guys doing PPE and English, right, and partying with them. And I remember my my group just saying to me, they said that was going to fail, man, do you know what I mean? But I think, you know, I’m one of those guys that when the crunch comes to the crunch and you need to get your head down and cram. I was that guy, right, that I could just go nuts and then just cram at that point. Right. But being brought up in that environment. Right. And being restricted so much, certainly for me, I just let loose.

[00:19:09] Right, exactly. Exactly the same because we were so restricted. I mean, it was so grown up in this that household, honestly, even music and everything, it just wasn’t allowed to the point where you used to hide and listen to music and you said, Oh, Dad’s coming home. You know, I’d like to go even out with my friends on a Saturday. I’m going to a birthday party, get dressed up for a birthday party, and then just hang around. My friends, you just had to lie all the time. And then when you did get caught and the beatings were very I mean, severe beatings to the point where you just think this is just you know, I look back at it and it was just it wasn’t nice growing up in that environment.

[00:19:46] Do you know what? I look back now, right? And, you know, I’m very grateful for that upbringing. And I’ll tell you a few reasons why. The school that I went to was as rough as ourselves. Right. So if certainly I’ve got an addictive personality, right. If I if I wasn’t held back on the ball and chain back in the day. Right, I’d go in with the wrong crowd. I’d have been doing the wrong things. And I definitely wouldn’t have made it to where I was academically or where I am today. I’m confident about that. Right. Really, really confident that held us back. Right. And that’s all I knew back then. Today, I’ve got a completely different relationship with my father and he’s the grand parent to my children. Yeah, that should have been the father to his son.

[00:20:38] You know, that’s funny. That’s exactly the words I’ve used before, because my father, he’s passed away, passed away two and a half years ago. Now, at the end of his life, he had really, really mellowed out and it was unrecognisable. So, you know, and if I ever thought or discussed this with anybody, they’d be like, I can’t see how he would have done that. Because I think obviously they had a lot of pressure. There was a lot going on. And and I get that. And I and to a certain degree, yes, I agree that, you know, I needed that just like you have because we were very similar. I needed somebody to kind of rein me in. But then, you know, sometimes I think it was excessive and I think, you know, some things could have been avoided. And, you know, but yeah, near the end of his life, honestly, he was he was amazing grandfather. He was an amazing father to everybody. He was the head of the house. And when we lost him, it was just a massive void in all our lives. And having that seniority around, you know, suddenly he’s gone. It was really strange. But I agree. I think, you know. Parenting was a lot different. I look at the way I am with my kids now and it’s completely different.

[00:21:43] Totally, you know, totally different.

[00:21:46] But now I say something and they’re like, they respect the fact that I’ve said it. And I say to them, Look, don’t, don’t. Do I have to remind you to do something? No, sorry, I’ll do it. Because if I raise my voice a little bit. But I remember once my son, he was he was playing up to my head and it was getting to that point. So I picked him up and put him on the bed and it was like, Oh my God, you put me on the bed. It really I’m like, I put you on a bed. We used to get thrown downstairs and he still remembers me picking him up and putting him on a bed and.

[00:22:18] Really.

[00:22:19] No idea. So yeah, it’s a complete different type of parenting. But yeah, it did, you know, to a certain degree it did help me because how do you know. Oh pushed me going to go back and and study again. I wouldn’t be here. So I am grateful for certain points. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:36] And you know, as we as you alluded to right there, probably several different ways of getting the same outcome. Right. But it’s what they knew back then, I think. I think, you know, but it’s just let’s just take you back to the you mentioned you lost your dad a couple of years ago. Can you remember the run up to that? And sort of you mentioned that he’d mellowed out. You know, was that was that after he’d retired and stopped working on the buses when stresses and strains of like providing for the family and stuff like that parks themselves. What was it what was that transition for your dad where he where he became? Yeah. You know, it was, I think, a gentle soul, probably.

[00:23:16] If I go back, he.

[00:23:17] Was probably.

[00:23:19] The last 15, 20 years. He had really kind of just mellowed out. And I think that’s after he retired and after and after, you know, he moved from his house and moved in with my with my brother. And I think he was just the fact that the kids were all successful in their own right. And with Asian parents, I don’t know what was like with your dad. He would never tell me directly, but he would tell the whole world.

[00:23:40] And it was shared.

[00:23:41] From every corner. And even when he went back that everybody knew what oh, my son, this and my son. But he your face. But I really.

[00:23:48] Yeah, that’s nice.

[00:23:50] All right. And so he did. I think after then he had grandchildren. I think he had just kind of really just decided. And I think it was a he didn’t have to be that way anymore. And I think he realised that actually we’re all independent doing our own things. And this is a certain point when you look at we’re generally with kids as well. When you get to a point where they start becoming independent, you’re not as strict on them as you were before because they’re growing up into adults and they’re making decisions and you can support that by shouting. You realise that actually it’s not really going to make much of a difference, you know, especially later on as you get older when you’re married and you have kids and they go, well actually you’ve got your own life. All they want to do is see you then and spend time.

[00:24:31] Yeah. And you know, they get to that stage where, you know, my work is done.

[00:24:36] Right? Exactly. Yeah.

[00:24:37] Kids are doctors, dentists. They’ve done well for themselves. They’ve got their own career. They’ve forged it, they’ve got kids. And you’re right. What does my dad want now? 25 minutes with craft. Yeah, right. Just one on one time. Let’s go for dinner. Let’s do this. Let’s do that at the most. The most valuable thing I could do for my father right now. Yeah. Is to actually go to him and say, Dad, me and you, we’re going out for dinner tonight. Yeah, not even paid for it, right? Not even pay for it. Not. Not buy him a gift or anything like that. Right. The most valuable thing that I can give my dad today, it’s just my 100% dedicated time father.

[00:25:14] And you know what? You realise that now I’ve lost my dad. I realise that, you know, I wish I’d done more of that. And you always have that wish, regardless of how much you do, is always that void. And you think, Oh, I wish I’d done more, you know, and I can go back and tell you a million stories. And I remember one day this was after I graduated, I took him to shopping and he picked up and I saw him in the shop and he picked up a pair of shoes and turned it over, put it down and walked out of the shop. And I went back in. I bought him the pair of shoes and I said, Do this for you. And honestly, I tears in his eyes instead. Somebody said, I could never have afforded this. Yeah, but dad is okay now. And I sent him a mum to Singapore and Malaysia and I came back and I said to my mom, How was it? And Mom said It was brilliant, but I’m really annoyed. I said about what she said, Dad is Dad wouldn’t eat inside the hotel. He would walk five miles to go and find an Asian place to sit down and eat. And I said to Dad, why are you doing it? I said, Why, why? Why are we going to eat in the in the hotel? It’s going to cost more money. I said, Yeah, but you’re not paying for it. It doesn’t matter, you know. And then running up to that point where he literally was looked after, he had everything he wanted, you know, he’d see all the kids and we spent time with him and he’d always say to me, he’d always get annoyed at me, Oh, you haven’t called? Because he started by the end of his life.

[00:26:29] He had Parkinson’s and he had some memory loss. And he’d say, You haven’t called. I said, Down. I called yesterday. No, you didn’t. He said to my mom, Did he call me and be like, yeah, called yesterday. Okay then anyway. But to. How are you? You know, all he wanted to do was was spend some time. And the last time I saw him was when he was going to Pakistan. And it was running up to it was about November time and he’d go for four months and then come back because they have a house out there. And I took him to the airport and there was a six hour delay. So I spent some time with him at the airport and I remember him going to the bathroom and by that time he was slow to move around. We were in a wheelchair. You could walk a little bit, but we had a wheelchair for him. And I went to the bathroom and I said, Dad, are you okay? And then after I said, Yeah, I need your help. So I went in and helped him. And then I went to wash his hands and I walked him over to the sink. And as I was washing his only looked at me in the mirror and he said to me, Do you know? There was a point? I used to do that for you? And I was like, It’s okay, dad, I’ll do it for you.

[00:27:25] And then I’d finished on a Friday in December, the last working day, which my September to December is probably the most manic time I have because I’m double and triple booking myself. So it was so busy and I got home Friday night, went to bed about ten, 11:00, and then at 1:00 in the morning, I got a phone call from my mom saying, Your father’s passed away and looked back at that. That was the worst kind of the hardest thing you could ever hear as a as a son and for your mom to tell you that. And then it was in the middle of the night. It was about 1:00. My brother was at his house. His wife and kids were away. And he was literally just roaming the streets, running around, just crying. And I was like, weren’t there? Me and my cousin brought him inside, got my ticket and flew out. I had to get a visa at 3:00 in the morning. Ironically, we knew somebody who I’d met at the airport when my dad was leaving who worked in the embassy. I phoned him up and he was like, I’ll get your visa. And I flew out there and the minute I landed, I tried to bring him back because I’d made a promise that I would.

[00:28:32] So just just just going back there. When your dad passed away. He was in Pakistan. He’s in Pakistan?

[00:28:38] Yeah. He didn’t wake up. He just didn’t wake up. He went to bed and didn’t wake up. And he said to my mum a few days before he said, I’ve only got a couple of days left. My mom’s like, what are you talking about? And I’ve spoken to him a few days before and he said to me, If anything ever happens to me here, I want you to bring me home. It’s almost like he had a premonition that he knew this was going to happen. So I flew out there and I landed there on the Sunday morning, went straight to the hospital. And the worst thing is, you know, when you go to the house where your parents used to be, my father used to be, you can hear the sound of crying coming from the house, you know, you know, it’s just a horrible situation to walk into. And then I went straight to hospital. I went to the morgue in a makeshift, makeshift morgue and saw him there. I just thought, I need to bring him home. I just need to bring him home. And I spent literally for three or four days just out and about doing whatever I could to bring bribing everybody, as you do, you know, envelopes of money going, flying everywhere. And then Christmas Day, I brought him back and the funeral was on the on the Saturday, the 28th, something like that. So it was a hard thing. And it was I remember when we were in the cemetery lowering his body. And I just thought to myself, you know, all said and done. And as much as you run around, this is where you’re going to end up. Yeah. And then you always end it with regret. And I wish I’d done this and I wish I done that. And then it also made me realise I thought if I look back at my year, what do I remember the most? It’s not about the most amazing cases that I’ve done. I remember the times I spent my family, my friends, these memories that are much more important that stay with me than it does.

[00:30:09] The work is so true, you know? And even though people tell you that, right, sometimes you get caught in that rat race. Right. Of you. And I spoke about this at length in the past. Right. But, you know, you get caught in that. Okay. We do. Okay. Right. Successful and people define success in different ways. But, you know, let’s just assume we’re both doing okay, right? Running around busy feels like perhaps neglecting certain areas of our life or certain individuals because do you know what is the day you need to be lowered into the ground? Right. I promise you. Yeah. Those implant surgeons who got you into their clinics to do the psychometric cases or the all on for the complicated cases. Right. They turn it on. Yeah. It’s the people who are going to turn up when you’re lowered into the ground, the people that we need to be spending more of our time with.

[00:31:06] Absolutely right. Absolutely right. But then it makes you realise if you think to yourself, okay, I’m going to make a change and I’m going to do that. And then it’s easy to get called back into the same rat race and then decide, well, actually, okay, I’ll do it for another couple of months. And I do. And inevitably I give like I have a Friday off and I go get a book in my diary because that’s the fight I’m going to have. I’m going to have a long weekend, and then someone calls me up. I’m like, Okay, let’s just do that Friday. I do the following month, and then that never comes and you end up doing the same thing. But what it does make me realise is that actually I will take. More time out now, which is what I you know, after after my dad passed away, I tried to do that where I was having breaks every maybe three months, even if it’s just four or five days away. And I think that’s the way that I can balance my life out. But then COVID hit, and then after COVID, we thought, we’re only going to be working maybe twice a week, especially as a visiting surgeon. I thought, you know, yeah, everyone’s going to do basic dentistry trying to make everybody okay emergencies. And so nobody’s going to pay for implants right now. We went back and literally since we went back, from the moment everything opened.

[00:32:12] Up, how wrong was you?

[00:32:14] Oh, completely. I got that so wrong. I honestly thought I’m going to have so much time. But now I’ve been honestly, I’ve been probably busier than I’ve ever been in my life.

[00:32:24] If you could go back to, you know, perhaps a month, two months before your dad passed away, what would have you done? You know, I.

[00:32:34] Would have I would have sat down and had probably more of an honest conversation with.

[00:32:39] Him.

[00:32:40] You know, which I never think we actually I don’t think we actually ever had a honest, frank conversation. I think it was all you know, which was nice. And we spent a lot of time together just talking about how things were. And he’d tell me about his life, which ironically was after he passed away, somebody sent me a CD of him being interviewed at a radio station about his life during the partition, which honestly is still sitting on my desk. And I don’t have I right now. I don’t think I’m strong enough to actually listen to it.

[00:33:16] You still haven’t?

[00:33:17] I still haven’t because I don’t think I’ve probably grieved everything after everything that happened, I went on to just this autopilot, trying to get them back and do everything. And I don’t think I had a minute to. And every time I thought about him, I stopped myself. Which is not healthy, I know, but it happened in my own time. But if I had a chance, I’d sit him down and I kind of have an honest conversation about his life, how he thought, about how things were. Tell him that, you know, thank him for what he’s done because he did work really hard for us. You know, in amongst everything else, you forget that the life that they made for us, they sacrificed a lot of their lives for us. And I don’t think as children growing up, you know, we have that where we weren’t allowed to do this or we were beaten up. And you don’t actually take time out to say, well, thanks for the stuff that you have done for us. Yeah. And I wish I’d spent more time with him just sitting down and saying that to him, which I think I never got a chance to do.

[00:34:17] I think it’s important to reflect on these moments and times, right? We’re at that age where, you know, there’s people around us who are who are getting to that stage in their life, friends, family members, even colleagues our own age. Right. Leaving far too early and you start questioning your mortality. The why, the why, the what are you doing? The why are you doing it? You know. And then how old are your kids, Chris?

[00:34:44] 14 and 11.

[00:34:46] Well, in life. And so they start asking questions, right. I know. Even my youngest, my five year old. Yeah. Just say to me, Daddy, why do you work so hard? So? So what’s my answer? Yeah, so we can buy things, have nice things. We can have a lovely house. We’ve got this home, whatever, right. You know, and. And then she’ll say to me, okay, so we’ve got this. So so why do you work so hard? And I tell it because, you know, and she goes, So if you didn’t work tomorrow. Yeah. Would this house not be here? No, that’s not the case, Darwin. That isn’t the case. We’re okay, right? Okay. And then she’ll ask me the question again. So, Daddy, why do you work so hard? Right. And. Their innocence. Right. Is so smart in many ways. Right. Because they question everything. And actually, when you sit down and listen to them and give them a proper answer, you realise that actually they’re a lot smarter than you give them the credit for.

[00:35:51] Absolutely. And like you questioned why you do it. And, you know, honestly, I work hard. It’s not about I think at a point in my career now where I’m not thinking I’ll get every case, I’m going to get this money. I don’t think about that because I do enough cases. I think about, you know, I like what I do genuinely. You know, that’s one thing. I’m very lucky that every day I go in and operate. I actually really enjoy the position I’m in right now, you know, and I’ve but as as a friend of mine, Steve’s not close. He’s always says to me, you know, to get 20 years of experience takes 20 years. And that’s and he’s right. There’s no shortcut to that.

[00:36:33] But let’s say you’re an overnight success. It just took you 20 years to get there or whatever it is. There’s no substitute for experience. Right. So let’s let’s explore that conversation, risk that, you know, I know that when we were looking for somebody to do more advanced implant dentistry in our clinic, and we’ve got some skilled surgeons in our clinic who who do the the I say the every day all on floor or same day teeth stuff. It’s not every day for everyone. But I would say our surgeons are more than competent to do it, but they know that they know their limitations. Right. And when a patient comes in where it’s beyond the scope of that practitioner. Yeah, we call in the A team, right. And that’s us. And so if there’s an implant or a case or a situation where we can’t do it in our clinic, both clinics, right. We, our clinicians speak to you about the case. And then if you think it’s feasible, you’ll come in, you’ll do the surgery and and the aftercare and whatnot. Right. You’ll take care of all of that. Yeah. How did you get to that point where I guess how did you get here from from graduation to today? What’s been your education pathway? How did you get here? And then at what point do you decide, you know what, I’m going to get one of those really long implants and stick it in just below the eye. Yeah. And so so just talk me through that journey and then let’s talk about your first somatic implant you have replaced.

[00:38:08] Well, so going back to so after dental school, I spent a lot of time, like I said, at the oral surgery department, it’s something I really, really enjoyed. And early on I was going to the Max FACS Department and I used to hang around there a lot and try to do what I could, which I really enjoyed seeing what they were doing. So I remember then applying for the house job there and doing some Max Roach training at the Royal London, which at the time was a really busy and it still is a really busy max factor department, probably one of the busiest in the country. We had a tertiary referral centre, we had HEMS coming in, we had, you know, we had so much trauma going on. It wasn’t even based on dentistry, it was based on just facial trauma. So the exposure to that was amazing. And back then you could do a lot more than I suppose you could do now. So it’s been there at the right time, I think really helped. And I think during that time we were allowed to do we’re doing psychometric fractures, we were doing mandibular fractures, we were doing them, you know, we’d have an operating list.

[00:39:13] So after spending some time at the Max FACS Department, then it was a case of deciding whether to do medicine to do go to become a reg or do I do dentistry. And as much as I love being in the hospital environment, I really, really enjoyed that. I thought, you know what actually might be better to go out to dentistry, do my VCE, which I needed to do anyway, and then I’ll come back into hospital if I really want to. But during that time, honestly, I think what you learn in terms of hands on and bearing in mind we had no protected sleep, so it’s like the old school way of doing things. It was a case of right where you get on with it, whether you have a good night’s sleep or a bad night’s sleep doesn’t matter. We’re on call one in four, which meant normally one in three weekends. Every second weekend we were doing trauma surgery. So it was really, really hands on, very medical based, very surgical based. And then I came.

[00:40:03] Out.

[00:40:04] And I remember my first day at Vet and seeing somebody and they were like, Oh, it’s an emergency, what’s that? And they were like, It’s a fractured feeling. So this is not really exciting to me right now. So yeah, you got to do so much with doing in fact at the time so you know our on calls and it was very hands on we had Friday list where we got to play a lot more and let’s say we didn’t have protective sleep so we were doing tons of surgery, came out, did my vet and wasn’t as exciting as I thought.

[00:40:36] And then when did you do your vet?

[00:40:39] It was in Hornchurch and in Essex, and it was an oral surgery based clinic which was good for me. So I got to do wisdom teeth and sedation, and I learned sedation during that time, but it was the case. Then I thought, You know what? I don’t think I can do this as a full time career, honestly. So I applied to do an MBA and that was for the following year. So I had a year to kill during that time because I was quite happy to leave dentistry at the time. And during that time I was waiting. Somebody phoned me up and said, Can you do me a favour and can you come and do some surgery while you’re waiting? So I started going out and doing some surgeries or actually is not a bad thing to go around doing some surgery. I need a bit of money.

[00:41:26] Quick question me do you fallen out of love with dentistry? Is that why you decided to do the MBA? You wanted to do some.

[00:41:32] So yeah, I thought not love it just couldn’t see myself in all. Honestly, sitting in a practice doing feelings every day. I just couldn’t see myself. And I know people like it and I enjoy doing that. But for me, it just wasn’t right because I’d come from this hostile environment which was really high powered, you know. So in the case of going back to hospital, but I just thought, you know what, I just can’t see myself in practice it just for the rest of my life. And yeah, pretty much I don’t think I’d fallen out of love. I just couldn’t see myself doing this same job every day. But during that time when I was doing surgery, I’d seen implants were on the scene at the time and I’d seen people place implants and I thought, Well, let me explore that a bit further. And I remember then applying while I was waiting was to do an implant course and I deferred my MBA entry for the following year. So that was then two years later. And during that year I did a Tipton course in Manchester and while I was there at the Tipton, of course, I remember it was Richard Butcher at the time there he was doing these implants as well. And I remember thinking, this is a great career, but people have always said to me, listen, if you don’t do implants, you can’t make a full time career out of it. You can do it as a kind of add on, but you still have to do dentistry. And as I was doing that early on, I thought, you know what? Actually, I really enjoy because it’s all aspects of surgery based into doing implants that I’m allowed to do and practise. And it was quite a new, new kind of skill or new kind of technique that was coming in.

[00:43:02] The implants weren’t that popular, and after spending a year doing the Tipton course, I remember having a few patients lined up at cost, so we weren’t charging the patients any more than it cost us. I think we were doing the implants plus the at 500 and £600. Wow. You know, just and the only reason why I was doing that was because I just wanted to get the experience. So we’d line up the patients and I’d place one or two implants. And it was a very difficult sell back then, trying to convince a patient to have even a single implant. You’d have to see them three or four times and convince them to part with even five or £600 just to say having an implant. And I look back at it and I think, you know, I started very early on and maybe I had some mentoring, but generally I took a patient in place, the implant. And after doing that for about a year I realised that there was a massive gap in my knowledge, a huge gap in my knowledge. I mean, I was seeing my own, my own disasters coming back within the year, you know, not all of them, but I was seeing some of them and I think what’s going on here? And then you realise actually well I don’t know anything about Bone and I don’t know anything about sinus grafting because inevitably you’re going to come across a situation where you go, I have to refer this patient out and I’m like, Well, why should I refer out? So during that time, funny enough, a practice was up for sale and I bought a practice, a private practice.

[00:44:22] Oh, yeah. You’re a practice owner at one point.

[00:44:26] Yeah, it was as a practice owner. And this was in Harrow, and it was a private, fully private practice. And I’d literally just come out of it and bought a private practice. And so I use expensive materials and tried and sent it to a good lab and I charge triple the price. That’s what it’s all about. But what it did make me realise is that actually and it did help me because I could these patients could afford to have dental implants. So I started lining up. These patients have maybe more advanced surgery. And I remember thinking about sinus grafting, thinking, okay, I know my way around a sinus, but I don’t know how to do sinus grafting. So I flew over to Grasso’s, of course, and sinus grafting there was on the same course.

[00:45:07] Oh, really?

[00:45:08] Yeah, he was. That’s where I first met Kadish, and we both learned on cadavers. And I came back and I remember coming back on a Sunday and having a patient lined up on Monday morning to do the surgery.

[00:45:23] Do you know what? I’m going to stop you right there, because that is probably the most important part of learning anything, is putting it into practice the very next day. Right, is that you talked about in the early days learning how to do basic implants and then go in and firing them in at 500 quid a pop. Right. But you were you were really you were getting your miles in your early miles in in those days. And then you go on the bone grafting course. There’ll be a lot of people who went on that bone grafting course. And it’s probably not never grafted since.

[00:45:55] Doing it on the cadaver.

[00:45:57] And we see a lot of people at the ice academy. They come on they also courses. Right. And the piece of the one piece of advice I give them is half. A few patients lined up to practice. Especially when it comes to awesome. Right. Your nurse, your wife, your husband, a family member, a best mate who’s got that.

[00:46:17] Crooked tooth.

[00:46:18] That has never got. Do you know what I mean? There’s a whole bunch of people and do it for free. Do some tea or whatever. Right, and get those miles in. Otherwise, don’t even bother booking on the course if you’re not lined up. So you came in, you did the graft the next day and was that it? You you’re off to the races from that point or.

[00:46:38] No, but but going back to your point, you’re absolutely right. And the funny thing is, I’ve called these people cause junkies they keep now I’m on the other end where I’m teaching. I’m exactly like you. And I say to them, Have these patients lined up, have things done? So when you go back in there, you’re ready to do it. What happens? You go, you run another course a year later and they come back. I don’t think now I haven’t. You’re like, Well, why are you here? Just want to refresh my what’s the point? Refresh your memory that you haven’t actually used the skills. Yeah. I mean, after the grafting course I remember doing the sinus graft and I remember walking out the whole morning and this is the biggest procedure in practice I could do. And I remember going did this sinus window and it took me about nearly 2 hours just to get to the sinus because I was that nervous that was going to perforate. You know, if you perforate, that’s the end of it. You think you’re going to kill the patient.

[00:47:25] And after the sinus graft caused, you know, place in the first the first sinus graft, I realised that actually a patient survived. I could do this. And then you try to get another patient in so you don’t lose the skill. So it’s not only the case of, as you say, practice to do the first one after you’ve learned it. It’s also a case of then actually then reinforcing your skills and continuously reinforce skills, because only through that would you realise where you’re going to make the mistakes and the different types of anatomy or things that are not going to be as straightforward as you think they’re going to be. And how do you work around that? You know, you might get a septum coming to the sinus, you might have a perforation. How do you deal with that? Those are things when you have those sweaty moments when your heart’s racing and adrenaline’s kicking in and thinking, sure, what we’re doing now is that you learn and that’s where you then don’t make the mistake again, because you’ve done it once before.

[00:48:17] And it’s funny, right? You talk about like making mistakes and things like that. Right? And I remember I was on I was on the I was on a zoom call with Hassan McGwire the other day. Right. And he turned up 5 minutes late for the Zoom call. So whatever. Right. And he goes, Oh, crap, I’m sorry I’m so late. I’ve just had the fish and implant out of the sinus. And I said, What? And he goes, Yeah, it happens. Right. Well, there was the one guy he’d done it. Then I had to go in and I said, What were you doing? Like tilting the patient’s head this way and that when he goes literally that literally that. Right. But, but the way he spoke about it was a man who saw no issues with it. It was just a problem he needed to fix. He’s done it. And now he’s chatting to Prav about marketing, right? Literally minutes later.

[00:49:07] That’s exactly the case. And I’ve done it so many times where I’ve got the phone call and said, I need your help and I’ve seen the x rays come up on my phone and there’s this implant stuck in the sinus. Yeah. And I’m like, right, add it onto my list and I’ll wherever I am. Yeah. And I remember somebody saying that to me, it’s like, when can you come over? I was like, No, it doesn’t work that way. You bring a patient to me, I’m travelling halfway across London, stick onto my list and I’ll do it for you and that is it. And they go, Right, do you need anything else from me? Like, No, I don’t. Just bring the patient and you get to a point where you’re doing your normal list and at the end of it you open up the sinus and literally the search searching. You wash it all out and you pick it up and done and it’s done. And they’re having sleepless nights, you know, because this implant is stuck in the sinus. But I know I can fish it out. I’m so familiar with that sort of work now, and especially now that I’m the kind of people who always see it. When something happens, they give me a shell.

[00:50:02] And and literally 5 minutes ago, you were talking about doing your first procedure where you were scared of killing the patient. Right?

[00:50:10] Initially, you’re told you touch the scientist and that’s it. It’s all over to now exploring the sinus. I’ve got some great x rays and honestly, I wish I could show you. And I will do when I see you with the sign. The implant stuck up here and I’m trying to fish it out. Yeah, it becomes a normality, but I mean, that took a long time. So many, many sinuses later, you know.

[00:50:31] So just on that point, while we’re talking about mistakes and what can go wrong in implant dentistry or dentistry in general. Right. I’m a big believer in the whole black box thinking, you know, concept where if you’ve read the book, it’s the it’s it’s about the airline industry. Right. And how the black box in the airline industry is the keeper of all information, all good or bad and all the mistakes. Right. But the great thing about the airline industry, whether I’m flying for Emirates or BA or whoever it is. Right. If I make a mistake, I share that with the world, no matter how tiny it is. Well, the whole industry benefits from that mistake. So the airline industry becomes the safest method of travel because we have that open community where we share every. Be seen with the world, but in medicine. Right. We cover up our shit, right? We all the time. We hide our mistakes. Right? It doesn’t go into a central database or that black box where everyone gets to see every mistake that Riz has ever made. So if they can learn from it and they start their implant journey, they say, okay, this did this, this, this, this and this. So I should avoid this, this, this, and this, and this will give me a better head start. We don’t do that because we we don’t share. Right. So on that concept. Yeah. On that fall. And what’s your biggest clinical mistake that you could share with us, where you’ve where you’ve learned something and when? I mean, biggest clinical mistake. You know, some people say, oh, I chose the wrong patient I shouldn’t have treated. Right. That’s cool. I get that right. I’m talking about the no shit moment. Right.

[00:52:13] And I’ve had I’ve had a few. I’ve had a few. And you’re right, I have no issues sharing my mistakes. And even now, when I say people sometimes probably look at my saying and go without the shit and I agree, it probably is.

[00:52:23] Yeah. You know.

[00:52:24] When you do this and I think I do things to a very high quality, I’m very, you know, I obsess over certain things and that’s my personality. Like you said, I obsess over things. So when I finish surgery, I go home and I think about it and I always think to myself, I was okay. I could have done better. You know, I don’t go away a lot of the time satisfied. And I look at it and yeah, the x rays might look good, but I know there’s certain things that I could change and I’ve had it, I’ve had a few and I could be ranging from I remember the first time Teeth in an hour came along, which was the concept from Nobu by Kodak. I remember this private was Nobu by kid came up with this concept that you could literally do surgery and fit teeth in an hour. So it wasn’t even teeth in a day. Yeah. Now we’re going to teeth in 2007, I think it was it was launched in Las Vegas at the MGM Grand Massive Show, all of this stuff. We came back. It was a guide you put into the mouth. You place your forehead for implants and you had a prefabricated bridge that was made that you fitted on at the same time. And I remember doing that two or three times and it was great patient came back after three months and I took the bridge off and all the implants were attached to the, to the bridge and you realise in the patient sitting in a chair they’re going is everything all right? And thinking, shit, you’re looking down, you’ve got all the implants attached to you.

[00:53:40] And it just made you realise that you’ve got to trust in your own hands and your own ability to raise flaps and see bone and see things and feel for that stability of the bone. Which made me realise and I know I just said just taking a complete different turn now and it’s much more predictable. But still the skill set, I think the skill set of raising the flap and doing traditional surgery, you have to master that before you go on to guide. And so, you know, guided surgery being the easiest way to do it without learning the surgical skills that you need and other ones are. Yeah, you talk about I should have chosen the right patient. It’s very difficult because as much as sometimes you say, well, a patient can be difficult and do you really want to treat that patient? And there are patients like that who come along, who shopped around, and all they’re doing is saying, right, okay, well, I don’t agree with so-and-so on, I want a cheaper price, then I’m not that person, so I don’t want to treat that patient. But at the same time, you know, certain things, especially the way things are right now, you’ve got to be very careful, not only the patients that you choose, but also you’ve got to be prepared that some of the patients are going to treat, some of them are going to come back and bite you regardless of how well you’ve done the surgery. So it might not necessarily be your surgical skills that are lacking. It might be something that’s happened that could could be could happen to any patient.

[00:54:59] And you get caught in the middle of it. But going back, I remember once when I was first initially doing sinus work and I remember placing an implant around a molar site and as I was putting the implant in, it was feeling really soft. There wasn’t much stability and I was near the sinus and I went back to get something to remove the implant and the patient took a really large kind of sniffed in and I look around and the implant had gone into the sinus and this is my own mistake and I thought, I’ve got efficient and there’s the first time I had to fish out my own implant. And I’ve created a window and I’m pouring whisper to me hours and hours trying to get I opened the window and I couldn’t find it and I thought, where’s it gone? Look for it for ages and finally managed to get the implant out. So now when I do it for everybody else, I know because that’s how I first learn how to do it on my own implant. And then it made me realise that I don’t want to make that mistake. Yes, I’m very, very careful with that. You know, I’ve had bleeds when the first time it’s happened, but the patients really bleed and then you realise actually I need a cauterising kit and you know you, you do these things almost reaction. Yes, things happen and you start getting the right equipment and start building up the surgical skill set because of the mistakes that you make.

[00:56:11] Going back to those mistakes, the bridge coming out with the implants or the first time you lose the implant in the sinus or whatever. Right. There’s a patient on the end of what’s the communication that happens with the pain? Right. First of all, you have that moment where you’re dripping in sweat. Right. And you think, oh, shit of it, or What have I got myself into this time, right? But once you’ve got over that, like, what do you do in that situation? What’s the communication with the patient, assuming you can communicate with them and they’re not away with the fairies at this point?

[00:56:42] Yeah, you can. I mean, when you communicate with the patient and you say to them, look, and you explain, I think in the beginning you try to make it out that, you know, it’s not as bad as it looks or you try to kind of dampen it down or you try to kind of skirt around the subject, say, well, the implant moved out to just take it out. I think the more experienced you get, the more honest you become with it. I personally and now I have a very frank conversation, whether it’s psychometrics or whether it’s anything else. And I say, look, these are the points that can happen or this is what’s happened and this is what I need to do to rectify it. You know, even now, out of the thousands of implants I place a year, not all the implants are going to integrate. And if they don’t, I think I’m very honest with the patient. This hasn’t worked for whatever reason it is. And I’m going to remove it and I’m going to then replace it or, you know, whether the patient’s going to end up with lots of bruising, whatever it’s going to be. I’m very honest and very frank with the patient now. And I tell them categorically, categorically about what kind of risks are involved with the procedure, and they have to be aware of it. I don’t think in the beginning you just want to do the work. And I think if the patient says yes, you try to not put the patient off. But I think the more experience you get, the more you have to realise that communication is key.

[00:57:55] And so ever been in a situation where the patient said to you, Right, I’m coming after you? Sure.

[00:58:00] Yeah, I’ve had that a few times in my career and I think anybody’s been in this career long enough. Will tell you they’ve been there. Yeah, and being honest with you, I remember the first time, 2015, which I had letters of complaint that literally was solved. Patient came in and we discussed it. We did the crown for free or whatever it may be. Everyone’s done it like that. But the first time somebody really went after me was 2015 when I was an all awful patient place, the four implants and we lost one of the digital implants. We put the patient on a temporary and replaced it. So the four implants were there, which happens. The patient had a temporary bridge which broke a few times and we made the patient a few temporary bridge. I think we made three bridges and we said to him, If you’re abroad, it’s a travel abroad alert. If anything happens, we can replace the bridge free of charge, or we go anywhere and we replace it for you. That’s why we’re giving you spares. Anyway, we finally gave his final prosthesis and I remember him saying to me, he stopped me in the corridor, said, If you give me £20,000, I won’t complain to the GBC. And I said to him, You haven’t even paid for the final bridge yet. I’ve made you a few temporaries and my implants are still in your mouth. What’s the problem? Yeah, he said. Right, and he wrote this letter of complaint to the GDC. Now this is 2015, so this is when they were really, really going after everybody. 27 charges were drawn up and 27 charges included. Things like I remember bearing in mind the patient had three or four mobile teeth in his mouth and the charges were not doing a decent ended assessment.

[00:59:34] And we’re talking the three or four mobile teeth carrier assessment. The CT scans are proving that there’s only like maybe a few millimetres of bone left around the apex of these teeth anyway. And bearing in mind patients are seen by the dentist before anyway, medical issues are done and I just reaffirm, go over everything on the day and say everything’s checked as previously seen by the dentist, which was only maybe a month before. Yeah, yeah. 27 charges. And then it goes to an interim orders committee, the IOC, and that is in between the main hearing and that decides whether you’re going to work from that point onwards or whether they deem unfit to work or dangerous. So had the IOC that was like find you carry on working and ironically one of the members on the panel he got up when he saw me, I walked off and had to replace him and I saw him in the corridor afterwards and he said, You don’t remember me, do you know you you taught me how to place implants and I’m he said, I don’t know why you’re here. And I said, I had no idea. Then a year later it went to call Six Days of Your Life every day defending. And the irony was not once did they question my surgical placement of implants. So the whole thing wasn’t based on my surgical skills. The patient was in no pain. Patients still had my implants walking around with my final bridge. But these stupid charges and by Friday they had to charge. From Friday afternoon, all charges were dropped.

[01:01:01] Oof! And the sleepless nights. Right? Unbelievable. Can you explain? I, I think in a particular month, if I don’t get a phone call from a client of mine to say they’ve received that letter right then it’s it’s odd that that doesn’t happen. Right. But I guess I’ve got the experience now to understand I can’t advise them or at least advise them on how to keep a cool head. Right, and not let that get to them. But at the moment, that happens for the first time and it becomes all consuming. Just just talk us through that like, you know, what the thoughts going through your mind. This is my career over with the last. No, absolutely.

[01:01:45] You don’t. Yeah, it’s. It hits you like a ton of bricks. It really does. Because you think, you know, genuinely. I don’t think. I think majority, I’d say. But you all don’t we’re not there to be malicious. We’re there to look after our patients. Shit can happen. And whether that shit could be a small or large, but it can happen and you genuinely are. I know that most of the time you genuinely are doing it for the right reasons and for the best interests of the patient. Yes, there are cases that rightly so, you know, has to be flagged up, but the majority of cases, no, they don’t. And I think they can be dealt with at a real basic level. But when that letter comes through, you think your world is falling apart because it’s a scary place to be trying to then stay focussed. That as much as your interpretation or whatever or tell you just you have to carry on with your normal life. We will deal with this. We will help you through it. You think to yourself, this is my career that could be potentially over. And people were asking me, my hearing was in November and people saying, Oh, I’ve got a couple of cases in December. And I didn’t want to say to him, I don’t know whether I’m going to be working, but I genuinely didn’t know whether I was going to be working.

[01:02:54] I was looking at my mortgage. I had to pay the kids that were young and I’m thinking, and then you question everything you do and you think, I am actually not a bad surgeon, but it makes you question everything you do. But I think the only way to get over it, the only way is to actually then think to yourself, there are many, many people who’ve been in this position and you have to believe in the fact that there will be a process that you have to go through, however, to be struck off. If you would have had to do something really, really bad things, restrictions might be put in or something might be done. However, your career is not over and you can get you can come back from this. And I think that’s the only way you have to keep yourself going. Yes, it’s going to be shit. Yes, you’re going to have sleepless nights, but nothing is worth, honestly, your mental health. And, you know, you’ve seen it as well as I have. We’ve lost loads of dentists through through things like this that give them the sleepless nights and they think, I can’t carry on, but tomorrow is another day. Things will get better.

[01:03:56] Yeah, for sure.

[01:03:57] We have to believe that.

[01:03:59] And it ain’t over till it’s over. I think that’s the that’s the sort of thing that I saw for the last sort of 15 years. I don’t know how many dentists I’ve spoke to about this situation, and I’ve yet to have worked. Probably works with one or two who sort of it’s terminal for them, right. In terms of end of career, right. Well, they were doing bad shit anyway. Right. I think I think the important thing here is that, you know. You know, and only you know within your heart of your heart and your deepest sense of self that whatever you did was with a positive intention, with the right intention, as long as you confidently can support that and sit comfortable with that.

[01:04:45] I think so. I agree with you.

[01:04:47] I think you’ll be okay.

[01:04:48] I think I agree with you. If you know that you haven’t done anything seriously wrong and shit happens. Yes, you’ve made a mistake somewhere along the line. Something’s happened. But if you know, it’s all in good intention for the patient. Chances are you’ll be alright. There might be something that might restrict you a little bit, but inevitably you’ll be back to work. So I think that’s what has to keep you. Keep going, keep you going. Otherwise, if you dwell on that too long that this is the end of your career, then I think serious outcomes for that.

[01:05:16] And I think the process, right, you can either go to hell and back during that process or you or you can try and be mentally strong about it and accept the fact that there is an outcome. Yeah, you kind of know that what your intentions are and the only thing that you can control is your response to that situation. That’s the only thing you’ve got control of because absolutely the guy sitting on the panel or what the patient’s going to say, you’ve got zero control over that, you know, but take us to risk. Take us to the point where you first when you started doing because we got you in we got you in as our somatic guy. Right. You know, it’s funny, right? Because we just give you the tough stuff, right? So we’ll never get rizin to do a like a closed. I throw it out and from across the room kind of case because we just don’t. Right. So we just you just do the really complex stuff for us, right? It’s not the case on the whole, are you? Do you spending most of your time doing complex implant dentistry or do you get a chance to do the quick wins every now and then as well?

[01:06:20] So now it’s nice to do every now and then have the quick surgeries where I can I can be home by 2:00 after the full arch. Yeah. Pretty mind. My first full arch was 15 years over 15 years ago. So did this for a long, long time. No more so than most people when they talk about wooden floors. I know I remember doing the concept, placing for implants and going, okay, how does this work? Figuring out as I went along. Yeah. And then concepts changed and I changed. I evolved because you see your own case and think I can do better. And then the complex stuff came along and I tell you where design psychometrics came in. And I remember having patients where if you know all fours, then that’s all you going to do. And every case becomes a limited all and four. So I’m going to try to squeeze this for implants in the bone as much as I can. But then you look back and you go, Well, I’m only giving them a tiny bridge. Is that really the best I can do for the patient? And I remember looking at psychometrics and I remember thinking and I remember being in Canada where there was some training going on there. And I remember doing some psychometric work there thinking, you know, this is phenomenal. The fact that we can use this and psychometrics have been around for a long time. It’s not a new concept. Branham was doing this for a long time, but it hasn’t been mainstream because it had a real negative connotation, because it was very politically placed. Things weren’t. It was just a case of giving something to the patient, not necessarily an aesthetically more the case that this is functional.

[01:07:48] You deal with it, you should be happy to have something. And it was a life changing surgery. So after getting to a point where I was thinking, well, actually I don’t have enough bone here. Now, remember looking at the zygote and the concept and then starting to place like Ms. tentatively under mentorship. And as I was in the Zygote and you think actually you look at the spread of the brain and you think this is getting this is what I want to do. More cases were coming along and I was finding as a visiting surgeon, bearing in mind it’s not like as if you’re sitting in a practice. And one of the things people say to me, all I want to do is like might it seems, almost becoming a trend now that they can take it off and say, I’ve got the big balls, I’ve done the surgery as I can. I think surgeon problem I have and I’m going to discourage people. The problem I have is if you’re in the practice and you’re seeing maybe one or two them a year, how skilled are you going to become at doing the like met again the complications involved with that? Is it worth doing? And I see that more and more because if you’re doing one or two honestly I’ve I’m done how many I do and I do them a lot. We could do hundreds and hundreds of these items. And every one you learn, you think to yourself, well, actually, I can improve the soft tissue, I can improve the bone, and that’s where the skills come in. And I genuinely think over the last ten or years of doing it, we’ve got it down to a predictable art form.

[01:09:11] I see it as, you know, every time you do a zygote. Right. There’s marginal gains, right. The tiny marginal gains that you’re making, right? Yeah. You know, I’m not I’m not a dentist. I’m not clinically trained in that way. Right. So, you know, for me to pass comment on this, but the one thing that’s really clear what you’ve just shared with us is this, that why even take the risk, right? If you’re going to do three cases a year, two cases a year, why take the risk? Right. Because you’re undertaking a procedure that you’ve probably got limited experiences. The chance, like if something goes wrong, are you going to know what to do? Right. The marginal gains that somebody like you was made over doing, God knows how many of these procedures that you you made, the mistakes you figured stuff out along the way. And I see that a lot. There’s this new wave of, you know, same day, guys, girls, whatever, right? And then the odd one saying, oh, I’m going to going to give Z goes to go now. Going to give XYZ goes that go. Right. It’s a bit like, you know, learning how to do bunny hops on your BMX and then say, Right, I’m going to move on to the next trick. Now, do you know what I mean? That’s how he feels and that’s how it sounds at the moment. But but we are dealing with patients who are having complex, invasive surgery, right?

[01:10:32] It is. It really is. You’ve got to know your anatomy. You’ve got to know the skill. Your your surgery has to be on point. And honestly, you know, and the reason why I say it is because I remember first as I goes and thinking, I have no idea what I’m doing in terms of landmarks. I was mentored and I was like, okay, opening up the sign is knowing where to drill, how deep to drill, where the angle, the position. Now I’m lucky I’m in that position where I can mentor. I can mentor people. And also people give me new implants to try me to test, see how they go. I’m developing my own way of doing things. We look at our soft tissues just to because I’ve seen after five years when things go wrong. Now, that’s the other thing. When people start doing this work and they go, Oh, it looks perfect, fine, you won’t know until five years. There’s not going to be a six month follow up. And I’ve you’ve seen it over people go on the on Facebook or instant they go six months review. Yeah and since anything will work in six months.

[01:11:30] Yeah. Or straight after placement all those went in parallel. Exactly. Give the guy a give it right.

[01:11:37] Yeah, exactly. Give it five years. That’s when you know. Yeah. And I think once you’ve seen your own cases come back and Yeah. And you know most of the cases work out well but then you get that failure. When you think soft tissue has receded or something’s happened, you think to yourself, What could I do to enhance that soft tissue? What can I do to do that? So now I think I’m lucky I’m in that position now where a lot of people do know what I kind of what skill set I have, that I offer this full arch treatment. And the thing is, the thing is I was one of the early ones to actually go to do visiting surgery. So I bring my technician, I bring my nurse as a practice. Only you don’t need to do anything to supply the patient in a CT scan. And I’ll do the rest. You do the rest so it makes everybody’s life easy. You don’t even have to give me a nurse. And the fact that we’re doing complex surgery means that for the for the clinic, it’s less headache. You know, relatively quick. We come in, we do the surgery, and our aftercare is good for the patient, and we know what to do if something happens. So a lot of my work now, if you’re asking me about majority of the complex work, I think I would say the vast majority of my work is complex, either reduce of all of those that have gone wrong. So one of the things that I do do is when young dentists or inexperienced dentists do, all of those things go wrong. They give me a call and we do that. And I do lots of diagnostic work now, more than simple cases.

[01:13:06] You know, the point you made there about why, why, why, why get in the zygote game, right? And unless, you know, look, you’re going to have loads of these lined up and that’s your that’s your ambition, that’s what you want to do as a career and then go for it. Right. You know, you know, my brother, you know, he places probably six, 700 implants a year. Right. I’ve asked him about zygote matrix. And let me tell you something, you know, Kailash is a big risk taker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s got big. Cahoon is right. He takes risks, right?

[01:13:36] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:37] But let me tell you, I asked him, would you ever he said to you absolutely mad. He said, why would I ever dream of ripping the patient’s face open and placing enzymatic implants for those 2 to 3 cases a year? Yeah, that’s that’s coming from the biggest risk taker I know in dentistry. Right? I agree. So, look, if Cayley says that, then, then, then it must be. It must be. You know, I.

[01:14:03] Respect I respect people who do that, you see, because there are some great clinicians who are doing these full arch reconstructions all day long, like like leech, like other people. And I see some of a lot of the people I work with. People are doing all of this and they’re doing it to a really high level. And what I respect is that they turn around and say, Well, actually, can you come in and do this case for me and I’ll crack on and do what I do? I think that’s the most sensible way. It’s like things that I don’t do, like I don’t. This is my skill set. Doing full arches, doing implants. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years. Yeah, I’ll do something else. I’m not going to keep it. I’m not good enough. Even if a family member of one comes to me and need something that I will refer to the best person I know. It’s not me, of course. Why would I want to do that? And same with when it comes to Zigomanis, when it comes to if people are not doing all on force. The other thing is, is that people have really changed. You know, if you think about years ago and I don’t know if I’m sounding old now, so you can tell me if I am. But you know what they say back in my day.

[01:15:04] But when I was alive.

[01:15:06] It would also like me. I used to be sitting there watching people I’d travel to anywhere in the country and watch people do surgery because for me, I was hungry for it. Yeah, right now, trying to get somebody to stay in the room while I’m teaching them how to do surgery free of charge.

[01:15:25] They’ve got better places to be, haven’t they? Yeah, I remember. I remember Kailash. For the whilst he was a vet. On his weekends he would go and shadow a guy called Timmy Allegretti, who was a oral surgeon or whatever, right back in the day in Blackpool. Right. So he would drive to Blackpool and he would just sit there and observe. He would nurse and he couldn’t get enough of it. Right. And then he travelled to Leicester and spent some time with some other dentist who was placed in implants or whatever or doing serac or whatever. Right. But I remember back in the day like he would spend every spare hour weekend, whatever, right, whatever opportunity presented itself to him. Not only did he accept it, but he bloody milked it for every moment that he could. Right. And so today, if that opportunity exists flipping grab it and make the most of it. Right.

[01:16:28] Yeah. I just, I don’t know, I don’t see it as much. You know, there are the odd exceptions, but and I don’t want to sound that kind of person to say, well, you know, it’s different now, but I genuinely think it is. I think, you know, and I think that’s a lot to do with the fact that people see the social media and say, well, actually, I want to be like that, but they want to do it very quickly. And also a lot of people that don’t like the idea of somebody else coming in and they don’t like the idea of like, you know, if you think about it, the investment sort of by investment. So if someone calls me into their practice and wants me to mentor them, but obviously I’ll pay for my they’ll pay for my fees. But I wouldn’t care if that was me learning from somebody who’s got so much experience, I’d be like, Come down and teach now. But they’d rather then not spend that money and do it themselves. But the result of that is they’re doing something that maybe I’ve gone through those mistakes over 20 years that I can help them avoid, but they would rather make those mistakes themselves. So really, why would you?

[01:17:25] Without question. Without question. And, you know, there’s something that I learned from Dan Sullivan, business coach many years ago. It’s not about the how. It’s about the who, the who, not the how. And so you can either figure out you have a problem that presents itself to you in business, in dentistry, clinically or whatever. Right? You can either sit there and try and figure out how how to do it or you can find out who can do this for me. Who can fix this problem? Who’s the best person? Right. And as I’ve matured as a person, right, a lot of my business decisions have revolved around the who and not the how. I have a broad understanding of the how, but I don’t need to know the details.

[01:18:10] What I see that’s working smarter. And I think it is about working smarter. Why would you want to put yourself through this? Try to figure out yourself and waste that time that you do have, rather than develop your own skills or help somebody who can help you get to that point. So, I don’t know. I do things. I do see things changing a lot. And I think a lot of my work is going to be now. A lot of rescue cases, redo cases. And I think that’s becoming more and more common now, which wasn’t there before.

[01:18:39] Yeah. And just on that other point that you made about, I do think we’re losing the art of graft. Right. That’s true. Out of graft, we don’t graft as hard as the bus drivers and the shopkeepers did back in the day, right? That’s for sure. Yeah. You know, back in the day, you know, my dad would be doing, you know, be out in the taxi at six in the morning, come home, have some grub, go back out, do a night shift, come back at 6:00 in the morning, rinse and repeat. And a seven day week was a seven day working week. It was no such thing as a weekend. Right. And that’s all we knew. We were seven days. Right. And do you know what? When I started out in my business, I put the hours in, I got my 10000 hours miles, whatever you want to call it. Right. And I still work incredibly hard, but don’t even scratch the surface when I look at my dad. Right. Don’t even scratch the surface. Right. And I’m seeing a new generation of either business owners or clinicians or dentists. And it may be it maybe it’s the social media thing.

[01:19:41] I don’t know. Right. Is that it paints a picture of the perfect life. Yeah, right. If I put something on Facebook, I ain’t going to put stuff up there. Like I’m having a bit of a shitty day today. Right at a bus stop with my missus this morning. Yeah, my son called me, and I’ll bet, you know, I, you know, I asked for rounds of toast and some pistachio biscuits and a cup of tea. Yeah, and I’m about to talk into my lunch now, right? I mean, there’s nothing inspirational about that at all, right? So I don’t post that on social media. And then what I do later on that afternoon, I go to the gym. Yeah. And then I take a picture from an angle or just take a picture of the equipment and say, well, working out, having an amazing life. Yeah. Or whatever. Right. And then take a picture of my car or whatever and you paste and paint this life, whatever that life is. Yeah. It took, it took several years to get there or whatever. Right. But you don’t, you don’t see all that blood, sweat and tears. You just see the outcome.

[01:20:41] You know? Absolutely. And I remember it’s sorry to cut you off, but I remember once I was lecturing and there’s this young chap, he put his hand up so he could ask you a question. I said, Yeah, it’s in front of an audience. He said, It’s okay for you, but I said, Sorry, can I stop you? I said, What’s okay for me and it’s okay for you because you made it now. I said, But you don’t see what I’ve done.

[01:21:01] No.

[01:21:01] And what I do now, I still wake up at 6:00 in the morning. I still come on 8:00 every day. I’m still grafting, I’m still doing all of that to said, which allows me to be here and discuss this with you. It’s not just it’s okay for you because you’ve made it. There’s a reason why these people who lecture or who are travelling around or people listen to, it’s because we put the hours in and we’ve done those 10,000 golden hours. Yeah, yeah.

[01:21:28] It is so true. And so I’m seeing this new generation of, let’s say, business owners or whatever. Right? They a lot of them are looking for that shortcut. Right. How can a how can a squeeze my 10000 hours into five? Right. How can I do this? How can it do that? You’re saying to me that sometimes there’s an opportunity to sit there and shadow is flipping. Heck, I’d be turning up before you get there. I turn up at the practice. I’ve spent some time talking to your nurse and learning a lot from her. She’s obviously done every surgery with you and I’d be hanging around, hanging out with you at lunchtime. I might even go and buy you lunch. So you don’t. So you can spend more time having lunch with me and talking to me, right? I think a bit smarter about it, right? Until the point you walk out that door, I’d be grasping on to every bit of knowledge, but I’ve seen the same. You know, we’ve had dentists come in and Shadow Suresh at changing faces and they turn up for like part of the surgery. And then the fit’s going to happen in the afternoon and they go at lunchtime, right? Oh, thanks for that, mate. Cheers. Nice. And I’ll see you next time. Exactly. Wow. Yeah. Is that it? What’s that about?

[01:22:33] Yeah, why? Why not stick around for the whole. You’ve got to learn the whole process. And you would be like like you said, I would be doing the same thing. I’d be there all day until the dentist walks out that door and I’ll be like, Thank you very much. And I’d be on their case all the time. But it’s not like that anymore. It really isn’t. Yeah. And I don’t know. And it’s a dangerous thing because everybody, their full arches are now very common and everybody’s getting into it, which is fine. But I just think, you know, I don’t know, we’re going to be seeing a lot more problems than happening later on. Yeah, we’ll be taking up a lot of issues quite possibly.

[01:23:09] Listen, mate, we’ve been talking for about an hour and a half and the time has flown.

[01:23:13] By and done even.

[01:23:16] But that leads me to ask my final question. So if you haven’t listened to this podcast, you won’t know what they are. Or if you have, you might prepare for them. But it’s better if you haven’t. It’s better if you haven’t. So a couple of questions. And one of them is. Imagine it’s your last day on the planet, risks, and you’re surrounded by your loved ones. And I think we spoke about it earlier where where you were saying to me before, before the podcast that, you know, when you when your time is up and when you think you’re going to go the you know. But you don’t say you don’t you don’t say explicitly, but you kind of let people know what’s happening. And, you know, we’ve both crossed paths, paths with people who have had their final moments, weeks, whatever. And there’ve been subliminal messages that we’ve kind of gone back and looked at and sort of thought, Is that what he or she was trying to tell me? Was that the message? But imagine it’s your last day on the planet and you can say whatever you want to your loved ones, right? Your kids. And you were to impart three pieces of life advice to them. Right. What would you say to them?

[01:24:32] I would say. First thing is, you have to make more time for yourself without. Apologising for. And I truly believe I think we hold back and we try to conform. We try not to be ourselves. And I think, you know, and I think as the older you get, the more you realise as you’re being yourself, as okay and who you are. Be comfortable in the skin you’re in and do things for yourself. Nothing is out says. To spend more time with people that you love. Who make who are always there for you. I’m not talking about friends that come and guys that people who are who are truly there for you. You have to take time out and make an effort. Enjoy yourself more. With the people that you love. Surround yourself with people who are positive and don’t regret not spending enough time with them afterwards. Which I think we all do. And I know that from my own personal experience that, you know, with my father, I wish I’d spent more time with him on the situation than I was. And I just think I wish I had done this and I wish it. So if you want to do something, do it. Enjoy yourself, spend more time with the people you love and just create more memories and be kind to each other. I think they’re my kind of. Really, as I’m getting to this stage now is what I truly believe.

[01:26:07] And so what would your. What your tombstone read risk was.

[01:26:17] How people remember me honestly as just being somebody who was. Kind to others. It was. It’s an interesting one. It’s difficult to actually put it into words, but I’d like people to remember me as being. Overall, just somebody who would bring some sort of happiness and joy and some hopefully some positivity, maybe some inspiration to to the younger ones, whether it’s through work or whether it’s through through life in general. You know, some positive inspiration to the mike might make their life a bit easier.

[01:26:57] Yeah, mostly. Notice that none of none of it had anything to do with dentistry, which is beautiful, is lovely because we do what we do, why we do it for the ones we love. Right? So some of us do anyway. And that’s certainly the message that came across from your dad in the early days when he was grafting for you to give you a better life. And then we do things for our children to give them a we call it a better life, whatever that means. Right? Whether it’s, you know, educating them, making them play an instrument and jump up and down and do gymnastics classes, private tuition, lifestyle, whatever it is. Right. We just want the best for our children and whether we’re doing the right thing or not. Only time will tell. Final question is fantastic. Dinner party. You can have three guests. Dead, dead or alive. Who would they be?

[01:27:51] Wow. And. It’s a tough one. I am. My great grandfather. Because I would like to know where I’ve come from. It’s one thing to I think you have to know your past to move forward. I would have. I know we talked about it, but I’d like to be my father.

[01:28:18] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:28:20] The things I said earlier, you know. Um. Third one. Now? I think it probably be. Maybe even Brannaman, to be honest with you.

[01:28:35] Yeah.

[01:28:36] Because to be honest with you, I know it sounds it’s not it’s not it sounds cliche, but it’s because of him. Yeah. That I’m doing what I do today. Today. Yeah. And I honestly I still have private if I showed you I’ve got a book signed by him. Yeah. I met him before he died. And that book still rings true today. And. Just his vision of what he’s what he was thinking then was well, well ahead of his time. And the fact that we go for certain objectives, original principles makes me think that I wouldn’t. It would be lovely to have a conversation with him around the dinner table. Because he is literally inspired me to do what I do and it made me carry on and made a career of my life through the work that he’s done.

[01:29:23] Beautiful. Brown about your old man and your great grandfather. Yeah. What would you be eating, man? It’d have to be up in style, wouldn’t it?

[01:29:33] Of course it would. My grandfather probably reach over and slap me if I wasn’t making this.

[01:29:37] He’s going to say. He’s definitely coming with a ball or something.

[01:29:40] Right out of the sand. Like if I say too many other food, he would slap me over the head with it.

[01:29:45] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely it is. Thank you for your time. It’s been an absolute pleasure. The time’s flown by. It’s been a great chair.

[01:29:53] Perhaps. Thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much.

[01:29:59] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

[01:30:15] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing.

[01:30:32] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of.

[01:30:37] It, too.

[01:30:37] Thank you so, so, so.

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