Artur Zolkiewicz is one of the country’s most in-demand personal trainers. 

In this week’s Mind Movers, he sits down for a chat with Rhoma and Payman on the discipline of martial arts, a lack of positive role models for young men, and how he deals with the stereotypes around being a fitness practitioner.

Artur, Rhona and Payman also chat about the power of emotional intelligence and dealing with trolls. Artur also gives some invaluable insight into practical steps listeners can take to improve health and well-being.



In This Episode

01.38 – Growing up

05.30 – Discipline, martial arts and dentistry

14.09 – Empathy and emotional intelligence

21.19 – Body image, fitness and privilege

37.32 – Male role models, safe spaces and evolution

01.02.14 – Fitness and stereotypes

01.08.42 – Trolling and trauma

01.15.40 – Practical health and well-being


About Artur Zolkiewicz

Personal trainer Artur Zolkiewicz has over two decades of experience working with organisations and private individuals to help them improve fitness and well-being.

Hey, can I ask you some questions? Because, you know, I’m. I’m just starting out. I’m young and I don’t know what I’m doing. I really want to do well. I’m like, man, I’m taking you out for lunch. I’ll give you whatever time you need because this is so brave of him to be like, Listen.

I want to do what you’re doing.

I want to be No, I want to. Maybe. But I also I want to listen to people and find out how can I be better, right?

This is Mind Movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts, Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. Today we have another one of my friends. I feel like I take over with friends where I’m just very lucky to have surrounded myself with people who have impacted my life in a positive way. We know that the conversations are mainly about mental health, and today I’ve got a really special guest, Arthur Sulkowicz. Did I say it right? Very good. Woohoo! I said it right. So he’s actually a name that’s synonymous with fitness, wellness, high performance coaching in London. Arthur is somebody that really has demonstrated to me the importance of exercise, physical exercise and also mental exercise in a way that he’s harnessed his life to become the person that he is. He’s had a really interesting childhood. He works with some incredible people, has done some amazing business ventures, so really happy and excited to talk to him. Welcome, Arthur. Well, thank you.

For having me.

Great. Amazing. So I’m going to start off, right, because I remember that when we first started talking, we discussed martial arts. Right. So tell us a little bit about your childhood. Where did you grow up? How did martial arts come into your childhood and how did how is it for you today as well?

So I was born in Poland in 1985, so quite a while ago already.

I mean, I’m 1987. Let’s just say that’s not old.

I’m not going to mention.

Um, and I always have been a very active child, so I played a lot of chess because my parents were more into that. They would always push me towards more intellectual pursuits, so it would be more playing chess, reading books, writing. Um, but I was also always very active, so I played a lot of football, a lot of volleyball, so always a lot of activity. And I grew up amongst a lot of boys that would like to get into fights. So and I was never really a fighter. So my parents, I think, decided my dad specifically initially decided to send me to karate classes when I was actually we wanted to when we were when I was six. But back then, because the training was so tough, you couldn’t you had to be eight, so you had to be eight to to to be able to start training. So as soon as I turned almost eight, we cheated a little bit. So when I was still seven, I actually started karate training. And that’s sort of that has set me up for the future in as in it taught me so much, the training, the people, the coaches that I had, the role models that I had there, um, the competitive side of it and you know, the, the discipline, those, those a lot of that.

So, uh, to the point, you know, the first, the first year I didn’t want to go because, you know, you had those one coach, he was a very, he was a very intellectual guy, but also physically very fit, right? So, but he was also very strict. So back then it was just normal. It was 1993, so it was very normal for for a class like this to be very strict. So to give you an example, he would have 120 kids in one in a dojo. That’s what you call it, the place where you train. And it was only him and there was no word spoken. It was silence, right? If you came late to the class, you had to sit down on your knees and just wait for him to allow you in. And before you went in, you’d have to do push ups just to punish you for being late. Now, I’m not saying this is these are the right methods to treat children and, you know, eight year olds. But what it did I’m never late now I I’m I’m always on time. I’m always sort of you know, the discipline of of coming to place on time or being regular with what I do.

And I attribute this exactly to back then because, you know, I taught karate myself. I taught martial arts myself. And it’s very different nowadays. And again, I’m not saying that was the right way, but there is a middle ground between what’s happening now with what was back then, right? And then further down the line, I again, as I said, I would, you know, the first four years, I did not miss a single session. And my mom was very happy because three, four times a week I would be out every evening and out. I mean, by being out. I mean, when I came back home, I was that tired and I would just go to sleep. So she, she had it easy with me. Um, and, you know, so I, I then I competed every other weekend. I would go for karate seminars, workshops, competitions mean a lot of friends. I had my first kiss with a girl. I met the karate in a karate competition. So, you know, it was it was it was a very important part of my life. And up until today, I do a lot of kickboxing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. So I do it frequently, 3 to 5 times a week.

The question is right, discipline. I think that’s the one thing that massively stuck out for me. And I think that you would agree that dentists harness a group of very disciplined individuals. And on the one hand, would you agree? Payman. No, really. But I think discipline, I totally I think discipline. We argue a lot on this, by the way. You’re going to get used to that. I think you have to be disciplined because you have to get the grades that you need to get to get into dental school. When once you’re in dental school, you need to be disciplined to get through your exams, turn up to clinical things. Right? That’s discipline, right? That’s all discipline. You have to also be disciplined, like a lot of red tape is around our career. You have to be disciplined to do your CPD, to do all the like the paperwork around our stuff. I think that requires more discipline than the average person.

Maybe. All right. Yeah.

See one. So I think that that’s a really important thing. Now, I don’t know actually about the younger generation of dentists. Maybe you know better, but I don’t know if that’s sort of that discipline is perhaps less now, you know, because there’s like, I can’t be bothered with this. This is causing me stress. And I think that a lot of times we perceive stress to be a bad thing. But like, as you said, as a child, it’s probably had a positive impact on you. So I don’t think that like putting yourself through situations where you’re expected to turn up and perform as necessarily a bad thing.

Well, I’m interested in what you’re saying, Arthur, that, you know, going on from what Rona is saying, when you say classes today, martial arts classes today don’t have enough discipline, what is it about, you know, how are they how is a class today? Because I recognise the one you’re talking about, the the dojo, the sensei, the respect, the the sort of the the hierarchy. What is it like today in martial arts and, and are you saying the same thing in dentistry. Discipline, Maybe. But go on. Go ahead. Go ahead.

I’ll. Okay. Two things. Two separate things. Number one, the stress, you know, the exposure to stress. There’s an actual term called hormesis. So that’s a dose of stress that’s good for you and that’s going to make you progress. You can overdose. So then stress becomes a bad thing, right? But stress in and of itself, it’s not a bad thing. Right. Because we’re so afraid of it nowadays that we we tend to stress about stress. So as soon as we lose stress, we stress more. And that’s sort of like a like a vicious cycle. To your point, your question again, I’m generalising now, but the the it seems to me that in a lot of them it’s the martial arts classes for children. That’s what I’m referring to. They’re more playful, they’re less, you know, they’re less disciplined. There’s, you know, and there comes a point in every child’s life. And that was back then the same thing, say, 15, 16. When other factors come into play, kids stop doing what they actually what makes them grow. So they go, you know, the gender or the same gender, whatever you’re into, and then alcohol, drugs. So all these things sort of interfere with your progress, whether it’s martial arts or whatever else, right? So your passion when you’re a teenager, I think is so important.

But nowadays it’s just more so. For example, if you give a coming to my classes now, Brazilian jujitsu, you don’t necessarily have to be on time, right? Because there’s always you don’t there’s no punishment. But I still show up on time. And I noticed that with my with my peers at that club that when whoever most of the people that did any type of traditional martial art so were discipline is an actual component that’s being taught they always on time. There are some other people that’s more you know, and it’s also very cultural in a way. So, you know, people treat time more loosely, but I think that component is missing. It’s one kids can do more. You know, they can they they they allow to do more, which is a good thing. But also they’re left to themselves otherwise. Right. So there’s no they just there’s an iPad. There is a phone on the mat. There is. That wasn’t the case. And now, you know, my dream recently in the one I trained in jujitsu, they said, okay, no more phones on the mat for anyone, children, adults. And initially I was, you know, my first reaction. Oh, But then actually, I did a couple of classes. I was like, this is the best thing they could have done.

Because you don’t have you have people interacting with one another, right? So you have people and and you know, we probably will speak about later, but it’s a community of people. Yeah, mostly, mostly men. There are women as well, more and more, which is amazing. But it’s also speaking specifically of men. It’s it’s a safe space where if you speak in the changing room with other with, with our guys, they’re like, this is my meditation. I come here, I don’t see my phone. I can’t think about, you know, whatever spreadsheet or a decision or whatever I have to do. This is where I have to fully focus what I’m doing, because otherwise you’re going to get choked out, right? But you can also you you have that component of aggression which important for men. You can have that component of of camaraderie, friendship, which is also very important. And you have a time away from a screen, the time away from anything else. So that’s so. That’s why I always tell anyone when it comes to children, send your kid to some sort of a martial art class and just research. First. Go and try it out and see if that, you know, because I think that’s the best thing that can happen to your child.

I think I hear as well. I mean, there’s a few key words there. Punishment was one that just came up because you said there’s no sense of consequence. And I think that I mean, I think there’s like good and bad to having consequences and punishment, because I think, again, when I relate it back to dentistry, the fear of getting in trouble, whether it’s with like a governing body or your indemnity or do you know what I mean? That also keeps us accountable to certain actions and decisions, decisions that we make. You’re giving me that look again. You know.

The thing is. The thing is the thing is in dentistry, it’s one of the areas where actually you can you can get away with a hell of a lot. I disagree without anyone finding out the difference between a great dentist and a not so great dentist is what he does when no one’s watching, which is most of the time.

Yeah, but you just made a great point that that’s the difference with anyone who performs in a high level and anyone who sort of is a very average what they do. Right.

But but I.

Think what I’m saying is what my point is. Yeah. That you you could have someone who keeps up with their CPD. Yeah. Who doesn’t get sued because of, you know, he’s good. Good. Charming. Yeah. And yet when he does the work doesn’t doesn’t do it to the highest standard because no one’s paying attention to the work. I mean, in our career, we know this. You. The longer the better job you do, the less money you make. Yeah. Because as you say, this restoration is going to cost you £600. Now, I can spend real, real time, you know, magnification checking everything, or I can not check those things and still get the same £600 and me and you know that that compounds and the thing will fail in five years instead of in 12 years. And the patient will have forgotten all about it. So what I’m saying is one of the aspects of our job of professionalism that you’re alluding to is what you do when no one’s watching.

I hear you. But I think that you’re mistaking that actually for like a sense of consciousness, like on the one hand, with.

Ethics where.

Ethics, right. Because I think in anything that you do like, I think you’re confusing the two because I think, okay, number one, like if you’re a lawyer or you work in finance or you’re in this professional jobs, yes, there is a degree of of us being like, we can’t get in trouble because we will get punished if we do something wrong and get found out, which is what you’re saying, we will get in trouble. So that keeps a lot of people like somewhat in check, right? But also the person that’s like, I want to do this because I’m genuinely, you know, and this is the way I practice dentistry, care about the person in the chair, and I want to make sure that I’m doing my best for them. And that’s the same in kind of anyone that like runs a business. That’s just really ethics to me, you know? But I think that a lot of people now, especially with accountability, because they don’t have anyone to be accountable for apart from themselves sometimes that isn’t a big enough motivator to keep you going, and that’s why people give up much more easily because as you said, as a child growing up, turning up on time because someone will tell you off because you’re not on time. Got you into that habit, you know, and you know, there is that quote that says habit will get you further than than motivation can because that’s the thing. You know the famous book Atomic habits right. I’m sure both of you know it.

I’ve got an important question for you, Arthur based on Rona in dentistry is she’s a very good dentist, very, very, very top dentist. But for me, her her absolute superpower is how she relates to the person. Yeah. Not not the teeth, the person. Yeah. What I’m interested in is when you’re doing personal training and you’re doing personal training for these high, high end, high top level people, what how much of your value add is that mental understanding the person thing? How much of it is technique, nutrition?

I’m going to say and I was going to be controversial, but I think for a personal trainer operating, having clients such as I have, personality is much more important than than your knowledge. And obviously you have to have a note. You have to have the knowledge, right, because you have to bring results, etcetera. But. At the end of the day, people spend. You think about this, right? I have clients who spend five, six hours a week with me and then I see them outside of the hours as well. So they spend a whole lot of time with you. Some of these people don’t like spending time with this much time with even anyone. Anyone. Right. So you have to bring something, something special to the table. I’m not saying I’m special, but value. Value. But also you need to, I think, okay, personality and by personality, personality also mean your level of emotional intelligence. Yeah. And I think I have I have a quite high level of. Yeah, quite high IQ.

And so do you.

Yeah. And that’s why, that’s why I mean to get on so well. Yeah.

But give us an example of that. So you’ve got some guy who’s a CEO of some company. Yeah. And he hasn’t got the motivation to come to the gym or he you double his motivation somehow. I want to interject.

That Arthur actually works with Lulu’s Hertford Street five Hertford Street. Yeah. He’s saying as well. So the type of clients, as you know, there are not necessarily like aesthetically driven just to kind of put in there. So their motivations, which I think is really interesting when we talk about wellness and fitness. So yeah, just for the, you know, for people that don’t know.

Okay, So motivation is, you know, again, it’s more habit than motivation, right? So once people one thing, especially for this type of a client, I would say it’s your meeting. Your meetings are important to you. This is your meeting with yourself. And you don’t even have to say it because, you know, you operate with people who are much smarter than I am. So the level of IQ there is just much higher than mine. Right. But it’s the it’s the ability of of of not taking the cookie cutter approach in which you understand the human being. So to give an example. Right, to understand the and that’s why I’m not that’s what I what I do I call more performance coaching rather than personal training because, you know, you take care of the full body and in that body I see the mind as well, right? So it’s part of your body in the end. I’m not saying I’m a psychologist, I’m doing anything special, but my interest is in more areas rather than just just the aesthetic part of it. Right? Because that’s easy. You can go to a gym in a few places in London. Their sole business model is is to get you fit in three months. If you don’t follow the rules, they fire you. And pretty much I know so many people that went there.

And they relapse.

But there’s no longevity in it. There’s no longevity. There’s no they don’t they they not happy afterwards. Right. And there’s a whole bunch of sort of technicalities we could speak about. But, you know, to me, understanding the person and what they like, what they dislike, and also personal training is a service thing. So your service matters as much as you know it does. People don’t get it. Your your if you work with clients as I, you know the type of clients I work with you general knowledge matters. So you have to read the news, listen to the news. You have to be able to speak about things. Right? So and then you see the there must be some sort of connection to connection. Communication. Right? So there’s not one way to do this. These people don’t like when I tell them what to do. They don’t really like anybody to tell them what to do. Right. And we still have. And but if you make it fun and games, you know, for example, I have a client now, very, very close friend as well, who has become a very close friend. And as I told you before, a business partner, we play chess in between. So in between his rounds, we play chess. And, you know, it’s just something that keeps his mind busy. And, you know, I have someone else who, instead of listening to music, he likes listening to the news or LBC, Right? So it’s it’s.

Such a hater station, by the way, the LBC, you know, just saying. Just saying.

Go on. It’s, you know, but you know, it’s how you keep the person interested. Engaged. Some people hate exercise, though. They hate it actually, but they still do it, which I admire. Right. But so how do you how do you keep people engaged? How do you keep people coming back to you and not anyone else? Right. So it’s it’s building relationships, I think, with the people I have now. I managed you know, I’ve been seeing them for five, six years. So we we and they still getting what they want to get out of it and also keeping it interesting right. So keeping it so that they they don’t get bored because also a lot of playful minds and a lot of people that, you know, have a lot going on in their lives and understanding stress levels as well. So understanding, okay, the accumulation of stress in you, your work, your family, your business, your whatever it might be, and physical exercise and the mental pressure you’re under. Well, you have to understand that level of it as well in order to prescribe the right exercise, Right? So as you can see, exercise is only one thing. It’s not really you know, there’s some of my clients I would do, um, there’s we spoke about it briefly, actually, but there’s, you know, neurogenesis neuroplasticity. You can actually there are ways and. That’s also on me to go to the right place. I go to the US frequently to two conferences just to find out about that stuff also because of the other project.

But I guess also whether he’s having a good day or a bad day. Exactly The same person could be different, different days.

And also you never take things personally. You know, these people and sometimes, you know, initially when you start a nightmare.

In my case, just saying my personal training session. Huh? Are you are you looking at me like I knew that, you know, am I am just because I’m on my phone as well, like checking emails in between. I’m not very present anyway. It’s a tough life. I would.

Probably tell you off for.

This. Yeah, but you’re not.

You’re not her personal coach. No, no, no, no.

I told him to give me a training session. Still waiting for that, but go on, go on.

No, but, you know, I think there is. And that’s why, you know, I’m the person training you perceive is sort of the what’s what’s seen on social media. So solely the physical part of it. Right. So we train, we get ups and that’s it. But think about dentistry. Okay, let’s put let’s let’s take dentistry. What if you were only doing the whatever, you know, so that people look good but the health is not there? Yeah.


There’s a lot of but, but there is a lot of that and interestingly.

That’s what I’m saying. But that’s, that’s what it.

Would be like.

But interestingly, because Payman knows, there was when Facebook was a thing like ten years ago, there was this like fitness dentist, gym group, right? And you’ll be surprised. There are dentists that are really obsessed with the aesthetic aesthetic. And I’m talking about like you’re like, are you on steroids that sort of look like super bulk, super lean and you’re thinking to yourself, and again, it’s quite common. I do think it’s because of the personality types of dentists, the way they put pressure, the perfectionism, etcetera. But like you said, like are you healthy? And I think that that leads me onto my like next question. Like there’s constantly like these fads that you see online and all these things. And I think that the perception that if you’re not ripped, you’re not healthy is really toxic and dangerous because as you said, having a very low body fat percentage for for a woman, for example, is actually really, really bad. Like you’re compromising your fertility, you know, and movement in itself is good for you and you don’t have to be ripped to do that. So how do you like maximise your performance and also help change the narrative that like being this physique is not necessarily the healthiest way to be? And by the way, there’s still a lot of young dentists that aspire to be that kind of like ripped look, which I’m like, No, this is just.

You know, there’s okay, there is this and there is also that other that. If you’re lean, you’re not healthy. So I disagree with both. So if you lean your healthy, that’s one group of people think, oh, you know, it must be super healthy. But if you lean you’re unhealthy. It’s just the other type of narrative you’re seeing now. Right? One thing. Okay, a few things. I’m not even know how many things, but we’ll get there.

We won’t count.

Um, so number one, fitness and health and wellness is a marathon, not a sprint. So you don’t get there in three months, right? So you don’t. You know, people. I get accused sometimes. I’m in a good shape. I got to do some people. Oh, So what are you taking? Like, what’s that? You know, like, are you in testosterone? No, but I have been doing this constantly. Constantly since I started lifting weights when I was 20. I started training when I was seven. Right. So. So it’s the it’s the marathon that you that habits it. Habits. Exactly. And, you know, it’s you just simply cannot get there in three months or a year. Right. You have to and and that’s purely aesthetics. Obviously I got into lifting weights because of aesthetics, because I went to a modelling agency. They were like, you don’t have you know, I was my performance was amazing because I compete in martial arts winning competitions. But I got to the modelling agency, they were like, Oh, you know, you don’t have apps, so we don’t want we don’t want you because for your type you have to. So then I was like, okay, I have to start lifting weights. And that’s what got me into it, right? And I’m not going to. But then once you understand the impact of physical activity on all other areas of your life, right, your confidence levels, your mental health as well, because you can speak to, you know, there’s a a meta review of studies which meaning over 128,000 participants overall.

They they the the the results were that the conclusion was that physical exercise. So I think high intensity to sort of moderate intensity was as effective or more effective than counselling and and medication for anxiety and depression. So if you think about the impact of just physical exercise going to the gym regularly, whatever you do there. Right. And then this impact on your relationships with people, your, your mental health, your relationship with yourself, there’s just such a huge impact. So my point being that once, you know, it’s all good that people want to look good, that there’s nothing wrong about this, Right? That doesn’t mean that they will be healthy. If they get there because Because of the way they get there. Right. But there’s just once you realise how many benefits it has for you and your family, your friends, your the people that you surround yourself with. Then you probably understand the importance of it. Number two is there’s this concept of back casting. The doctor, Peter Attia or Attia, one of the top people in the it’s like.

A longevity.


Yeah, he’s sort of the most prominent doctor, at least on the social media front on online longevity. He’s, you know, a super smart guy, has a podcast as well. And, you know, anyway, he’s got this concept of back casting. So essentially what he says in terms of your physical health, where do you want to be in the last ten years of your life? Right? So assume you know what 30 something, right? Not disclose here. We’re like 30. Okay. 38 right. I assume I will live, I don’t know, 100 years. That’s punchy being optimistic here. But between 90 and 100, what physical ability do I want to have? Right. So I probably want to be able to get up. I probably want to be able to go to the shop, which probably is not going to happen in six years, but you know, whatever. So I want to be able to the, the, the things that are a daily living activities and you want you don’t want other people to be to have to help you maybe have grandkids and maybe you want to play with them right So in order to achieve that, what do you start what do you have to start putting in place now in order to be there in six years time? And that puts fitness in a much, much different environment and context because then it’s a health context.

It’s not getting ready for my wedding, getting ready for the next Yeah, yeah. Spain trip or whatever. Right. So not, not not many people respond well to it because people don’t want to think about it, right? So it’s sort of like, oh, whatever, we’ll figure it out with some pill is going to come about. But this this is also the way of of putting fitness and performance into a context that’s more important than just the chiselled physique that you’re referring to. And, you know, health to your question. Sorry, I digress. But being in a good shape doesn’t mean you’re healthy. Being in a good shape doesn’t mean you’re unhealthy. It just depends how you got there. And it depends on many other factors, such as, you know, your recovery, your diet, your mental state and etcetera.

So there’s there’s a few well, there’s a few things there because first of all, I think and obviously I’d like to get your view on it, but I think, number one, there’s immense pressure to for people to exercise, especially when they are depressed, because there’s also a group of people and I’m sure we’ve all been there that, you know, you have days where you’re like, I’m actually paralysed with how I feel mentally. The last thing I want to do is pick myself up and go to a gym, often because of habits, even if when I don’t feel like it, I might even go to the gym for like 15 minutes and be like, I’m not feeling it today. But even like the act of going. But I know that I’m in a privileged position because some people are not. And you know, we talk about our bubble, right? The bubble that we live in, because there are some people that have like seven children to feed and like are on benefits and live like a really stressful life, you know, And they’re not like, I’m going to go to the gym because everyone says it’s good for me and they are suffering from all of this sort of awful things that obesity imposes. So I think that there is that challenge and difficulty and it’s all very well saying exercise, don’t take antidepressants. But I think that there’s much bigger mental challenge to even just get up and go to the gym for some people.

Again, just to clarify, I’m not saying, you know, I’m not saying that people shouldn’t, but what I’m saying is that as good or if not as.


As effective. Right. So but I understand this. And I you know, I was fortunate enough that my I’ve been doing it for such a long time for myself. I’m speaking subjectively now that, you know, my parents got me to do it and I was an active child and that was my you know, and there’s a difference between siblings. There’s different there differences depending on what they do when they and you know, it is really it That’s why childhood has, you know, in terms of your physicality, it has such a huge impact on who you become later in life. I think totally as a person.

And I think as well, I mean, I don’t know. You’ve got kids, right? Do you know, sometimes think like I need to keep my health in check because I want to be around for them, like the priorities?

Chell Yeah.

Do you see what I mean? And so if you have a bit of a health.

Scare, I’m.

Quite interested in this question though, you know, I know people who, if they don’t do exercise for a couple of days, they become a mess and I can’t complain. It’s a bit like sleep, isn’t it? Like, yeah, if you get eight hours sleep every night, then one hour, one day, one day you get six hours sleep. That day you’re going to feel terrible. Yeah, it’s six hours of sleep every night. It’s this.

Anxiety. It’s. Yeah, I know what you mean. It’s a process, I would say. Yeah, I used to be. Stressy about. Oh, I didn’t work out today. So what’s going to happen now? It’s just I’m about to die and I’m depressed. Obviously I wasn’t, but it’s a process of learning that it’s okay. And it’s also, you know, one bad day is not going to is not a year, it’s not a month, it’s not a week. It’s just one bad day. And it doesn’t have to be a bad day. And sometimes it’s okay to say, listen, I don’t feel like it. I don’t want to. I don’t want to. It’s okay to do. And I think there’s a lot of especially with like tracking devices, for example, that you can track so much stuff, they can always almost get overwhelmed with data. So I have some clients that where the tracking devices, I don’t have them checking the data, I check the data. They don’t see them because I know their personality once they see I used to hate it.

But even like, you know, those machines that like do like the body fat and all that stuff, I used to just have a such big cry because I was like, I’m a failure. This is terrible. I’m technically obese. What am I going to do? Do you know what I mean? And like, I had a a coach that was like obsessed with the tracker and I just found it really mentally like.

But see, that’s why. That’s why you have to that’s why it’s, it’s a personal training should be a highly personalised service in a way that you understand the client and you work with what they like or dislike. Obviously there is always some sort of negotiation room for negotiation where you’re okay. You probably need that, but maybe we do it in a way that you don’t see that we’re doing it. So, you know, the the brain training that I mentioned to you before, I have some people doing it and they don’t they have absolutely zero clue they’re doing it. But because I think they need it because they’re a certain age or whatever, it’s I’m doing it with them so they don’t have to know about this. But it’s the way how you communicate with people. So as a trainer, as a coach, how do you get people to do you think it’s good for them and you program for them, But, you know, they they won’t want to do it. So there is there’s always it’s always all about communication on the standard of the person. Right. And the data, the the or you know, if you don’t go to the gym, you feel you feel guilty or you’re a mess. Two sides of it, though. One is I know that when I exercise or train, you know, I feel much better.

So if I have an issue, you have a problem. I this is my time to switch off. And I obviously, you know, I still need to take care of the right sleep and recovery and other recovery components because that physically it’s not a recovery protocol, but mentally it makes me feel so much better. Whatever. Whatever’s happening in my life is a Break-Up. There’s plenty of jokes, you know? But if there is anything with business, family, health always that, you know, the two hours of physical activity between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m. in the evenings, it’s a sacred time. And, you know, for me and I said it, it doesn’t matter how big my business grows, this is going to be my thing. And, you know, I have been very busy with because I’m I’m trying to build stuff. But everyone involved knows that this is something Arthur does every day, right? So it doesn’t have to be, by the way, it doesn’t have to be intense exercise, but some sort of movement movement and some sort of, you know, thing that allows me to process as well. So I have and so many times when it comes to building my Start-Up or working on projects, you know, consulting people and projects, I had my best ideas, training or under the shower. But that’s a different but.

But the, the, you know, the thing you said about some people have six kids and can’t get to the gym or whatever, it’s kind of an easy way out.

Like it’s not an easy way out because we have.

I spent years I spent years, you know, I had a Start-Up as well. I spent years convincing myself I haven’t got time.

To go to the gym. Yeah, but.

This is different. Go on.

Here we are. It turned out to be bullshit excuse. Yeah, Because one day I realised at the time Clinton was the president. Clinton was going, like, running. Running? Yeah. He’s running the whole free world. He’s got time and. Yeah, I’m starting a teeth whitening company and I haven’t got time and you know. You know what I mean?

It’s priorities.

I get it.

It’s just.

I get it. I get.

It. But you’re talking about. You’re talking from a place of privilege. I’m like, the problem that I’m talking.

Clinton No, you isn’t.

Clinton And you. Clinton and you a place of privilege. Because me and Bill, it is.

True. Those my real problem what I’m trying what I’m trying.

To those younger than me is running Canada.

So so the thing is.

Is that he keeps going on about Trudeau by the way. I don’t know what the whole thing is. A Trudeau Basically, the thing that I’m trying to say is, is that we’re talking about a socioeconomic problem is what I’m trying to say. And those people in society, that sector of society that don’t have the privileges. And by the way, I mean.

Basic privilege.

But he’s he’s treating, treating, sorry, helping some of the richest people.

In the world. Totally. Totally.

You’re treating some of the richest people in the world. The Dental pain of a rich person is just as much as a Dental pain of a 100%. But okay, there’s some sort of cumulative effects of not being able to afford and so on. But but you know, there’s my point. I think it’s a universal.

Yeah, I.

Think I think it’s it’s it’s it’s a different problem but it’s, you know, essentially the same problem. It’s a lack of time. Yeah. But also but.

It’s also that mental capacity the.

Educational part of it. Right. Yeah. And also what you’re used to doing, what you’re not used to doing because I would argue for someone who, you know, has got billions in the bank and they are not used to someone’s calling me. They they’re not used to exercising. It’s going to be as difficult to get into the gym or whatever exercise is going to be as that person you’re referring to with six kids. Right. Because on the the brain doesn’t recognise money. It’s like it’s just it’s a lack of time. So I get I get I get your point. But your point is it’s just.

Yeah, go on.

Go on, go on.

I get it now. I’m being told. Go on. No, no, no.

I get. I get where you’re coming from and and I agree with it. Right. Because it’s much harder, much harder for someone who struggles with financial problems and potentially time problems and lots of other problems because they don’t have money to throw money at the problem. Right. So for someone to.

Buy their way out.

Of it, Yeah. So for someone who is, you know, for someone who’s wealthy, they’re like, oh, I’m just going to hire Arthur Fine. You know, totally taken care of. But I agree with you. But I also agree.

With you totally.

Very diplomatic.

And it’s very it’s very it’s very interesting as well, because when we you know, I do a lot of work in the refugee camps. I go every year to Greece to do work with the refugees. This year, I brought one of my best friends, Chrissy Keller, who is a really well known fitness influencer entrepreneur. And because obviously part of it was like we have a skill, like we’re really lucky as medical professionals. We go, we literally treat pain, you know, when we go out there. And that’s amazing. That’s what I love about my job. And so with Chrissy, what she did was, is that we found her like the Women’s Wellness Centre within the refugee camp, and she did a fitness class, you know, and it was so great and we like recorded it and it was so fantastic to see like these women and getting involved and like some of them were like dying at like three squats because they just never done it. But there was a real sense of community and that’s where I’m going on to kind of like the next subject, which I think is really important and something that is really close to my heart. Payman and I have often discussed that the biggest cause of male death under 25 is male suicide. And I think, you know, the problem is growing and growing, and we often talk about the unfairness within society when it comes to women.

And of course, that exists. You know, I’m very much at the forefront of that. But, um, men, boys in particular, you know, you know, you guys saw the shooter, the accident in Croydon, right, with that young boy. Right. And what it screams to me is that young men more and more, do not have role models. They are their support system is going down. They’ve got the likes of Andrew Tate as well, who is the person that they look up to who is spreading toxic masculinity and all that thing. But I want to know your views because one thing that you said was that there was a real sense of community. And I noticed that you were talking about, you know, previously as well when you played sports, like there was male only groups and things like that. And I think, again, that’s another challenging conversation because people are like, why should it only be male and why should it only be female? And everything is the same and we’re all equal and all that kind of thing. But I’d really love to know your views. And as well, when it comes to like male sport, like is it important to have like sexes working together against each other? What kind of community? How could we do better for younger males?

Okay, so broad topic. Um, I actually looked look the numbers up last night and in the UK 150 people a week take their lives, 75% of which are men, which is which actually blew my mind. I was just sitting there like, yes. So and annually I think it’s worldwide. That’s that’s 6000 people a year right. 75% from which are men. And then worldwide, I think it’s around 700,000 people, 700,000 people who decide, I don’t want to live anymore. That’s just you know, it’s actually it’s very scary. Um, when it comes to men, I think what you mentioned earlier, the lack of the right role models or the availability of way too many wrong role models and everyone getting a voice nowadays and everyone, you know, without the, the sense of. Consequence that without a sense of potential punishment, they can voice their opinions, however controversial they are. And then we have people like Andrew Tate spreading, you know, whatever he has been spreading. And it’s funny because he’s getting so much publicity even from us and we dislike him. You know, it’s that’s that’s just the phenomenon on on on the these kind.

Of people on the.

Media nowadays. Right. But and you have a lot of young men and even women I speak with they’re like oh I agree with some of what he says. I’m like, how can you agree with some of what he says? But he also, on the other hand, is just the most sexist and chauvinistic. And, you know, it’s it’s just it blows my mind. Listen.

On that subject, one of my kid’s friends sent me an Andrew Tate thing.

How old is he?

Uh, 18.

That’s and that’s the group.

But it was three hours I listened to in that three hours. He didn’t say anything. Yeah.

Yeah, but you don’t understand. He’s changing the narrative now because his recent accusations. His recent.

It was. It wasn’t. It wasn’t a new thing. But my point is, there’s definitely stuff he says that I wasn’t. I wasn’t massively into it, but. But but I could have been someone else. Could have been. And he didn’t say a single thing in that three hours. That was.

Yeah, maybe. I mean, listen, I don’t listen, we’ve, we’ve.

All listened to the three 32nd things here and, and we all know those are the ones that that trended. And and I’m not saying anything. I mean the name Andrew Tate is now linked to those. Yeah, but there’s plenty of people who’ve listened.

To the long you know one you should we should be taking care of boys. We should be taking care of not only boys, but children in general. Right? So we we should be giving them enough education and understanding of what it is to how, you know. And it’s difficult because the traditional split of roles is no longer does no longer exist, which means that men used to know how to behave. Now we don’t know how to behave anymore because there’s so many suggestions you should be this, You should be that, you should be this, you shouldn’t do this, you shouldn’t. So you sort of feel like, you know, unless you have a strong personality and you you stay strong with your values and aligned with them and you know, then you know who you are. But otherwise, a lot of men, especially young men, I can see that happening. They just don’t know who they should be and they don’t know how they should treat a woman. They don’t know. They have absolutely no idea. You know, they should open the door for her. Should not. Should I? I don’t know. And the.

Rules are changing.

And the rules are changing all the time.

But what do you but what do you think? Like, how can we do better? Like, is it like what kind of role models do they need? And also, I’m going to go, go, go back to the whole community thing that I asked you, you know, and especially when it comes to like male sport and things like that, you know, are those things that help harness. I know that before we’ve had conversations where you were like, jiu jitsu helps me get like in touch with my masculinity, you know, in a different way, you know. You know.

Jujitsu is so martial arts in general. An interesting one because you have you are everyone is tough there. Like you are able to go on the mat and choke all the people. They choke you Obviously it’s not. But it’s a it’s a dangerous sport. But then so that toughness is no longer needed because everyone knows you’re tough. But, you know, it’s a community of people. Maybe, you know, we don’t talk about everything, but you make friends, which then which then makes you talk to them about the topics that maybe you wouldn’t mention with other people. So you have male friends and male friendships are and I’m talking specifically of male, but there are also we also have, you know, we also have ladies only class and then we have mixed classes. It’s a community where where there’s sort of there’s a boundary that’s taken away. So there is no there’s a certain societal limit, I would say that just doesn’t exist there because you sweat together, you fight together, and then you laugh together and you have events together. Right. And that’s one specific community I’m talking about here In my karate days when I was a child, for me, that was everything. You know, I would I would spend weekends with these people. And as I told you, like the first girlfriend I had was from karate. It’s a friendships that stayed for life, friendships that I have up until today. And you know, people that because they were and I’m not saying I’m talking specifically about sport just because that’s my thing but I think there is more there’s more you can do that creates and teaches people how to be how to have certain values, right? And the values are freaking boring. It’s the problem we have nowadays. Everything needs to be exciting, right? It’s the paradox of choice. There’s this really good book called The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz and what he says. The more choice we have, the less happy we are. And that’s true. The more choice.

So true. But this is why we’re all unhappy.

But listen. And then you have these two types of people. I told you about it before, but you have satisfiers, right? So people that make a choice, they’re happy with it. They’re like, Fine, I bought this coffee. Perfect. Then you have people who are maximisers. They’re like, I bought this coffee. You see a coffee shop? That would have been better, right? That’s me. That’s me as well in a lot of. But I think.

Me too. Jesus, We’re all doomed. My.

My theory is. But, you know, if you think of romantic partners nowadays and social media, I mean, we’re opening a whole another Pandora account, but it’s the Pandora box. But, you know, you’re you’re you are always presented with choice. That’s potentially a better choice. Right? So same same with, say, if you relate it to fitness, fitness is boring. You have to do the same thing over and over again, change it up slightly, but you have to be consistent. You have to show up and you have to keep doing this. People don’t want to do it. People don’t want to see it. Right. So and that social media part comes in and like, you know, you have people doing one people bashing all their people for saying stuff. Number one, that’s a trend where you sort of you sort of criticise everyone and everything and they just build that algorithm because of that. I’m not saying that’s a wrong thing, bad thing, do whatever you want, but you know, it creates that sort of where there’s the communication doesn’t, it’s not a conversation, it’s shouting in the and hoping that people listen. And there’s a lot of people listening and self-censorship.

We we talked about this many times, right? Yeah. You’re thinking something. You can’t say it because you’re worried about cancel culture.

We’ve talked you know, we’ve talked about this. But I’ve got a question for both of you. Do you think it is important to for men or young boys to still have a safe space, to have a community which is only men? Do you see what I mean? Because now it’s so frowned upon.

What is frowned.

Upon, I think. Well, I mean, Arthur might agree with me. Maybe it’s because we’re at the forefront of, like, social media. But like anything that doesn’t include women, everything they do, it’s like you’re misogynistic, you’re non-inclusive. This is it. Do you see what I mean? And I see sometimes that stuff going on in dentistry as well. Like I’ve called out, by the way, because there’s been like certain, um, I’ll never forget it. And actually, do you know the story about me? Chris Coachman? Did I ever tell you this story? No. So, Chris Coachman is an amazing dentist within our field, a really good friend of mine, and he was part of this thing, I don’t know, like six years ago called, um, dental stars on Instagram or something. And it was him and like four other men and they were really like promoting it. And I sent the course organiser or whatever like message and I said, This is really great. Topics are really interesting. I’m really sad to see that you don’t have any females on the panel because it was just one of those things. Apparently the message I sent was then screenshot in the group and then just being like ha ha sort of thing.

And Chris Coachman stepped in and he was like, I know Rhona and she has absolutely a point. He was like, Maybe we can consider like a female later on. He was like, No, no, no. You’re going to bring her on right now to the board because we need those female voices. And then I was the only female on there. And I think a lot of people were shocked. But I was like, well, you know, you don’t ask, you don’t get number one. Number two, I thought that that in that instance it was important. But now I think about it as well. And I think about like the way, as I told you, like young men are like, do they not have a safe space to be in? And also, like, what does that look like? Because I think that like, there’s also like toxic masculinity, as you said, like men commit suicide because, you know, they’ve got emotions going on. They feel there’s no way out. But then if you talk about your emotions too much as a man, you’re too soft. So where is it? Do you see what I mean? Where is that sort of like safe space?

First and foremost, you know, good friends. Yeah. And, yeah, good friends. You should have female friends. Male friends. But good friends are so important to men. Yeah, so, so, so important. And whether or not a club has enough women in it, we can talk about. Yeah, there’s been plenty of research that says diversity makes the strongest club, Right? But men. Men like to be around men, just as we would like to be. It’s quite funny, though, you know, Lebanese dinner parties. Yeah. Are very civilised affairs. Men and women come in together and they kind of stay together. Iranian dinner parties immediately at the at the.

At the.

Handing over of your coat, the men go to one side, the women go to the other side. And that’s that’s the way we like it.


You know, it’s certainly men together will have conversations that.

Yeah I think listen I think also it depends what we’re talking about. I think I agree with diversity always, always go first. But I think for men it’s important to have someone as that. It doesn’t have to be a large number, but someone else who can relate to their problems. And obviously, you know, and I don’t I hope that doesn’t sound controversial, you know, but men and women are different. Totally. And we have different we have various views. Right.

So amazing that that’s controversial.

I you know, I don’t like sport, like watching sport very much. Right. Yeah. I’ve been to the odd football game. Yeah.


Because I end up watching the crowd more than the game because the crowd is just so amazing. It’s so.

Interesting to.

See like the human kind of like.


Of it.

You know, there’s research that actually, um, men who watch football, their testosterone levels.

Yeah. Yeah. If they win, right?

Yeah. Yeah. No, but Jenny because, you know, essentially to for testosterone to be secreted, you need components like aggression and physical activity. So if you think of a martial arts, amazing. That’s just the best thing you can do. Right? But to your point, I think it depends what we’re talking about in terms of friendships. Friend, friend groups agree 100%. It’s important to have friends of both sexes. Um, important to have time with your male friends and male only. And because it’s I think it’s it’s and also it’s important to have different friends right so people that you can talk to about anything, right? And then people who have same passions and same hobbies and same, you know, do the same thing because they, they can connect over something. And this is important. I think the lack of the lack of passion is what what what leads to people having problems because they don’t know how to channel it and whether that’s a good way of coping with it or not. I don’t know. I’m not a mental health specialist, But, you know, for me, for example, I know that as I as I mentioned. Earlier that my way of dealing with whatever is going on here is through movement, right? And also talking to people. I’m very fortunate to have have a very close relationship with my parents, have some very close friends who, you know, I’m not my sister as well. We can talk about anything. So I’m very fortunate in that regard. Right. Maybe also because of my upbringing, maybe because my parents were slightly different, Maybe, you know, I don’t know. But I think coming back to your point earlier, you could ask the same question about, okay, girls only and boys only schools, good or bad, because that’s where it starts.

I went to a girls.


I went to a boys only, but then I insisted on my kids going to a mixed.

And do you think it’s.

Made a difference?

Yeah I.

Have. I don’t have a problem with it. I think it kept me focussed on like exams and stuff. Also, I think that like this is controversial, but also I think that it was really good because I wanted to as a young girl, you don’t really know what’s going on. And I think especially when you make decisions about like getting physical with guys and stuff, I felt like it kept me on the like, good path, if that makes sense, because there were no temptations and like I developed like a real sense of like, understanding boundaries and things like that. Controversial, I know.

But what about.

Like, sisterhood? Did you get that? Because in boys only schools you get this friend camaraderie thing. Whereas when I look at my daughter, the girls are just so horrible.

They are.


I still get it Horrible. I still.

Get it. But this is the thing. Like.

Was there sisterhood also? Or were you like.

No, no.

No, listen. No, not not at all. I’ve always been in sort of like the IT crowd, like as in like the popular crowd. Surprise, surprise. But I’ve also felt I’ve also felt that within that crowd.

There’s a hierarchy.

Know that I’m also really different, as in like there’s parts of me because I’m a very complex person. You know, despite what people say, um, that there’s parts of me that don’t necessarily like resonate and girls around me since I was at school have always been competitive. There’s always been a fight for boys. But again, this goes back and I think like I see this still all the time in society and I’m really interested now I’m going to digress a little bit on like the Primal Instinct. I was listening to the amazing podcast with Dr. Tara Swart. Did you see it in Steven Bartlett? So she’s a neuroscientist. I think I sent ATA, which I’m going to ask him some stuff and she talks about loads of different elements of society. So as you probably know, women, when they spend a lot of time together, their menstrual cycles sink. And the question was asked, who determines who sinks with who? And it’s actually the one that’s the strongest in the tribe. Now I come into work and I’m like, So am I the strongest?

You know what what device, the strength. Then what’s the.

Difference? It’s I.

Don’t know. I guess it’s like the strongest genes, like this is what she was saying. Does it matter? No, is what she was really saying. But anyways, that’s the thing that determines it. And it’s saying that those kind of like there’s certain elements that sink also back in the day, like primal days as well. Um, men. This is really interesting. The strongest man had to spread the seed so he’d impregnate five women at a time and then he’d have to go out and find food or whatever. And the reason why he’d do five at a time is because there might be a chance only 1 or 2 would survive. Does that make sense? So like, there is this really innate.

Sense of sex at dawn?

No, I’d love to read it. Is it good? Does it cover this stuff?

Yeah, well, it’s sex at the dawn of humanity. So. Yeah. So what did the cavemen do for sex?

I think it’s. I think. Do you know? I think. I think it’s really interesting. I’ll let you know how I go on that. But I think it’s interesting because we’ve moved on from like primal stages right now because as we know, like, we could be attracted to someone on the primal level. Again, studies have shown that, like women from the Primal will go for a man with like a t shaped physique, right? Because it’s that strength of sense and protection. Men on a subconscious level will like women with like a waist hip ratio because it’s like childbearing instincts. They can carry a child. You know, one of my friends dumped a girl because he thought her bones weren’t big enough so she couldn’t carry his children. Did you know that? Like, so anyways, so anyways, I digress again there. But the point is, right. I think that there’s been a confusion.

Not only because of that.

But that was one of the reasons he was like, Oh, apparently her bones were too little. So that was like he just thought she couldn’t carry his children anyway. Whatever.

Did he.

Make it up for.

Himself, huh?

Did he make that up for himself?

I think so. But he’s quite like he’s quite like old school like that. He’s definitely about, like, the DNA sort of vibe.


I think. Let’s not.

Discuss it. Let’s not discuss. This is another conversation. Anyway, the point is. The point is when. Now, I think also there’s a challenge with mental health, which I want to come on to with you because we’re not in a primal state anymore like you. Might fancy someone because of the way that they look, as in on those like physiques. If they don’t stimulate you or if they can’t provide for you emotionally, or if there are so many other elements now which contribute to our survival, does that make sense? Which I think maybe you disagree, which I think is also impacting men and women as a whole, right? Because we’re so becoming so much more complex. And do men feel that because there was such an onus on those like primal features that now they’re a bit lost? Do you see what I mean? And then how can exercise support them? Because you said at the beginning, quite rightly, it shouldn’t just be about physique, right? But perhaps that was such a big motivating factor because they knew that’s what attracted women being more muscular and broad. Does that make sense? You know, but we’re saying now it’s actually to kind of like stabilise you, make you feel good, etcetera. But how would you say, you know, to young men like this is why you should be exercising and this is the goals that you should achieve?

Um, good question. I think it’s tricky because if you think about young men, I don’t know what we define here as young men, right? Say 18 to 25 or.

Yeah, I mean, I’d say even younger, maybe like 13 to 25.


It’s initially nowadays because of what’s going on, every single boy is going to go into exercise either because they do a sport and they want to perform really well, but there’s going to be some type of a an aesthetic goal that’s there, right? So they will want to have abs, they will want to have that physique because they still they are still hormonally growing. Right. I recently someone sent it to me, I’m 38 and they say, oh, men are mature when they’re 43. I was like, okay, I still have five years. Right?

But really.

That’s so don’t know.

I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s I don’t know if that’s true. I don’t know if that’s true.

What about.

Women? Those are friends. Um, I don’t know. I don’t know.

I’m still a child.

And I don’t look.

At a nightmare. Go on, go on.

Yeah, but, you know, it’s so you have to take and. And it’s okay because. But you just have to show them the right way to get there and you have to teach again. I think people should be taught consistency. Consistency in any any level of performance, you can be good at it just by doing usually for a long time or just learning how to do it very well. Right. And it’s no different with fitness physique wise now. Right? But also, if you think about the human body, it’s the brain is part of your body, right? So your heart is part of your body. And these are quite vital parts that will keep you alive for a very long time. I’ll keep you attractive to people if we if we refer to that. But also it’s a super important part to get you to, to to get you where you want to be, right. Whether that’s physical or mental level. So it’s it’s hard to speak with people because and you can you can tell, you know, sometimes whenever I see someone new and people ask me and interestingly, actually today I will digress a little bit, but speaking of kickboxing and jujitsu, which I do now, there’s one of the like really young boys, like he’s 18 and he sees that I’m building a business, I’m doing this and that, you know, on social media, he he reached out to me. He was like, Hey, can I ask you some questions? Because, you know, I’m I’m just starting out. I’m young and I don’t know what I’m doing. I really want to do well. I’m like, Man, I’m taking you out for lunch. I’ll give you whatever time you need because this is so brave of him to be like, Listen.

I want to do what you’re doing.

I want to be know. I want to maybe. But I also I want to listen to people and find out how can I be better, right? Whatever, whatever he wants to do. But I’m so up for this because I have been supported by by various people. And I think whatever support you can give, you should be you should be given the support, especially if you think that someone needs that support or they have the potential, you know, whatever that might be. But I think it’s it’s it’s always a very subjective and personalised conversation that should happen because people react differently to they have different motivators, right? So different. So it’s really hard to answer this question actually. So generally speaking.

Yeah, Yeah.

I think what you said is, is interesting because you know, t shaped t shaped body is what you’re saying sort of your program to, to be into.

But primarily.

Apparently. Yeah but but then now now we’re getting confused with other things you’re saying sort of thing.

Well no it’s not that but I think like survival then was completely different to survival now is what I see because as you know, like there are women that are like they value more like security and safety, financial like wallet. Lol. So. So, um.

So yeah, I get it. You know, good business.

Idea. Yeah.

And also like. And also for men. For men, you know, you’ll find plenty of men that don’t necessarily like women that have hips. Do you know what I mean? Or whatever it is. So like there’s a lot of different elements.

I think. You know what.

I think it’s still. That’s the attraction part, the physical attraction part. It’s still going to be quite primal, I think.

But this is the thing, like on according to this podcast, the Primal was very much, as I said, like so women with like small hip waist hip ratio, like, like men are going to be like, Oh, she can carry children. Do you know what I mean? That kind of thing, on that very primal level. But it’s super interesting. But I would argue and say that now it’s changed, right? Because you might find men that like super skinny, straight girls. Do you know what I mean? You know, like he’s like me.

No, but listen, the Iranians.

They love their Eastern Europeans. I think.

I think I think it’s very, very general. It’s a general statement. I think that the the sort of primal instincts will still have an impact as to who we are attracted to. Right. Whether or not you have a type or whatever. And you you probably could go very Freudian here and like discuss a lot.

Mom, Mom will come into it.

And I’m.

Interested. You’ve got you know, you’re clearly mentally quite nuanced, right? You think you’re thinking deeply. You’re you’re when we spoke before we started, you’re definitely an entrepreneur, you know, like, you know, you could call me an entrepreneur, but I don’t think I’m wired that way. But listening to you, your story from Poland to Austria to the businesses you started and the businesses you’re starting now, I feel like you’re you’re definitely an entrepreneur and how these things have now, it’s possible now to be in the fitness space and and someone who’s intelligent. Whereas back in the day.

Yeah, you definitely.

Have a Johnny Bravo effect. Sorry. Like my parents.

My parents were definitely was like a joke. Yeah, it’s a joke.

And there was a scientist.

You have that.

Stereotype, you do have that stereotype. And I think that, like, as I said, it’s really important because people think like you couldn’t be one or another. And I think I think people still have that stereotype. And like if they if they see someone also that’s physically in really good shape, like, well, he has he’s a personal trainer, there’s time to just be in the gym all day.

I play a very I always experiment with it and I enjoy it. Actually, I used to get very insecure about this, right, by the way, because also I moved here like I didn’t I, you know, I, I one, I just, you know, I lived all over the world modelling. I was a journalist for a while and writing. So, you know, I have absolutely no issue talking to people. I can go and talk to anyone. I can travel by myself. I always find new people that I that eventually become friends, right? But what I do now, sometimes, you know, there is a lot more strings to my bow. But what I always people when people ask me what I do, I’m a personal trainer. But the reaction of that person, you kind of can see, okay, we’re not going to get along because they disregard you straight away, especially in certain, you know, certain cultures, cultures.

I have to say, like because my parents are amazing, they would love you and get on with you really well. But obviously there’s like a my mom definitely being Lebanese, you know what I mean? And like even like my dad, when my sister loved art, he was like, to be an artist. For what? You know what I mean? You want to be poor, you know? But I think that’s a cultural thing. They didn’t get it.

They’d want a PhD in it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I get, I get. No, no, no. But I’m probably going to get smashed for this. Right. But I got so much I don’t know people. So, so there’s so many assumptions based upon the way I look. You know, I have been a model and I’m, you know, probably quite a good looking guy judging by made money from it. So, you know, there must be something to it. But the amount of times that people judge me as a as a guy, just based upon my just my looks, same.

With me all.

The time, appearance all the time. And you know, if you think if you think about it like and that makes me understand women a little bit more because that sounds funny, you know, but it’s and I’m probably going to get a lot of hate for this as well but.


But it’s it’s it’s it sucks it sucks to be based to be to be judged upon based based based upon you look yeah. And because you know you have that and you know this is why I like talking to people and getting to know people better because there’s I believe there’s so much more to me. And and I, you know, I, I, I’m interested in so much stuff and you know, I university degree etcetera, you know, started a second one whatever but that’s just not you don’t you shouldn’t be you shouldn’t have to and that’s never going to be the case. But you shouldn’t have to prove people, oh, I’m not that stupid. Right? So I’m not stupid. I’m not as stupid as I look. I was I.

Was guilty of that. Siloing people into physical and mental. Yeah. And the point you made about the mental being. The physical, you know. Absolutely right.

All the way it to me.

No, all the all.

Did you did you did all the.

Way. No all the all the way until Joe Rogan was the one that made me realise, wow, he’s a super clever guy. That’s super physical guy.

Like, you’re making a great point because this is the role model boys should have. Right in terms of men that they should understand that physicality, you know, and and the mental strength and the intelligence. They don’t they have to go. They should go together, really? Because they it’s there’s no you know, there’s there’s is it I think from I’m going to I’m going to quote now from Conan the Barbarian. I think he says this is a the this is a task for men with skinny arms, for old men with skinny arms. So that’s sort of the separation between I’m so strong, I’m going to kill everyone and, you know, sleep with a woman. But you make the the important decisions. But that’s just not the case. It’s just there is a way of connecting, being in good health, being in a good shape as well, and and and being interested in a lot of. Things that would normally be assigned to someone who’s more intelligent, more smart, more academic and more. But it doesn’t it’s not it’s not mutually exclusive. It can go together. It can go hand in hand.

I think. I think also, like for me, as I said, like we’re failing a whole generation of young men and it’s not being talked about enough because we focus so much on other things and people don’t recognise how how pertinent it is when it comes to like male mental health. But as you said, there is a balance because there are good role models. We’ve spoken about it before. I absolutely love Huberman. Do you listen to Huberman? I absolutely love Lex Friedman. Lex Friedman a little bit is a little bit more of the archetypal like geek in a way, isn’t he? Because he’s like an academic. He doesn’t. He doesn’t. But.

But he’s.

But he’s really sexy. No, no, no, no.

No, no. He’s a black belt. He’s actually a vicious black.

He doesn’t, he.

Doesn’t he doesn’t like the thing for me, as I said, going, I don’t want to give Andrew Tate any more airtime, but he represents the archetypal Johnny Bravo, which I personally don’t find attractive. Do you see what I mean? Whereas, like someone like Lex Friedman, where I’m like, I find it so attractive when someone’s intelligent, like I genuinely do and that’s, and that and that and that for me, that for me as well is really important because for me, I’m like, you’re a great role model. And Huberman, you know where I’m like you guys. But also you can see they they embody the degree of masculinity, but they also respect women. Do you see what I mean? Because you can tell the conversations they have, the conduct. They have the nuanced way of thinking, you know, And I think, you know, there are there are men out there and like you said, Joe Rogan, you know, like he can have very balanced conversations. He can you.

Know, he’s in a very fulfilled relationship, but.

He’s And human and Lex Rubin not. But you know, but, you know, they talk about that. So I think it’s important. And actually, I didn’t tell you about this, but I got trolled. I’ve actually been trolled recently, as you know, I get trolled by some male dentists recently.

What would they say?

It’s really weird, but the way that they’re behaving is that they’re annoyed and angry about my success. And I’ll tell you the context of later. But I don’t get it because I’m like, why? Why am I threatening you? Or why are you trying to compete with me? Or why are you trying to put me down? And the ages, they are about like 22 to 25. And I’m like, I don’t get it. I just don’t get it. Like, why the needs to attack me? Do you see what I mean? And again, I’m like, Is it because of the younger generation? Is it because they don’t understand there’s some kind of like undertone of hate or wanting to see me fall?

You’re quite a public person. So it’s it’s you’re you’re out there, you’re not afraid to say things and you’re not afraid to present your work. And you also, you know, you’re prominent, prominent in the in the field that people didn’t think you could be prominent in. So that will always attract because you’re different. That will always attract people who are that’s probably pure envy and they will probably always and men probably. Easy to call.

It envy, though. Yeah, it’s a bit easy to call it envy. I mean, I think Rona, the thing about her is she knows social media better than us.


No, I’m asked is pretty good.

Not as good as better than most. Right? She knows me, so she knows part of social media is trolling. Yeah, but what I’ve noticed with her more recently, before she used to complain about her a lot. Now she wants to understand it.

She’s writing. She wants.

To know. No, she wants to know. She wants to understand it. And I don’t think it any longer comes from the same place of hurt that it used to come from before. Now now you just want. But I.

Understand. But I have.

I have empathy and nuance thinking. Right? Because with the stabbing, it was such a heinous act, right. With the guy like stabbing the 15 year old girl in Croydon. But also my nuance part of the brain is like, what have we done to fail these people? Like, why are people committing these acts? Because again, like another off topic thing, but like when people go to prison, right, people are like they’re criminals. They deserve to die. People become criminals because they’ve had some trauma or something awful happened to them. And unless we address that, people will keep going to prison and then they get released. And by the way, 90% or some crazy statistic end up being going back to prison for the same crime because you don’t get back to the root cause of the problem. Right. So that’s why I said to you, punishment is an interesting one, right? Because there’s on one hand, a little bit of fear keeps you on the straight and narrow and just like, you know, focus on what you’re doing. On the other hand, it can you know, it can just create a sense, you know.

I guess there is there is a correlation between mental health, one to the space to to be able to say stuff without again, without, you know, without being punished for it. Because, you know, I don’t know what these people said to you, but it was probably not very nice. Right. So it’s online bullying essentially. In the US, you have guns, you have them available and you have mental health issues and you have more shootings than ever before. Right? You have more stabbings than ever before here. And so I think. I think there is something happening. I don’t know what it is, you know, not that smart, but there is something happening that we’re not only failing men, we’re failing society as a society In a lot of ways. It’s sad, you know, because there’s just so much more available and so much more. And then there’s.

The there’s the crisis with the number of people being prescribed antidepressants and how that takes empathy out of you. Yeah.

And you know, you have, for example, if you correlate that with obesity numbers the obesity even though. Yeah. The the knowledge about it, you could argue that the available knowledge about health, fitness, wellness so much more than than ever before yet you know for children so many more opportunities you know still even the the underprivileged children they have more opportunities than the underprivileged children back in like, I don’t know how many years ago. Right. So but you still I saw I don’t remember exactly. So I don’t want to misquote but the obesity rates amongst children in the US were absolutely shocking. Same in the UK. So and you know, we have so, so much more, so much more available to us. So much so so many more resources to help these people.

Yeah. But also.

To damage.

But also to.

Damage but also damage them. But you know, it’s easier to the.

Phone itself is a is at the end of the day an addictive mechanism.


And obesity, a lot of it is to do with addiction.

Yeah. But then obesity has links with depression. That was my point. Right. Course. So you can see there is a correlation between that too. And then it’s it’s it’s just, you know, I don’t know what’s happening, but I think something really has to change on a systemic level for sure.

You know.

You quoted numbers or you said 700,000. Yeah.

A year.

Humans or guys, humans, humans killed themselves. And I always think about this sort of number as like, you know, what’s the number of people who got close to it? Probably a thousand times that, you know?

Yeah, but let me ask you a question. Do you know do you know anyone who got close to it? Sure. Do you know anyone who got close to. Yeah, I do. I know anyone. I ask this question. Everyone knows someone.

I know several who actually did it.

But especially in dentistry.

In dentistry, it’s.


It’s the highest suicide rate. So we know. We know Payman. I know people we could name probably like five people that we know killed themselves. Yeah, yeah.

What’s the what’s the actual reason.

We don’t know.

This is the thing. Like, this is why we started this whole podcast. We delved into it with my therapist. I brought her on and you know, as Payman was saying, like you got, you know, like brain surgeons and heart surgeons. And, you know, my dad had traumatic time delivering babies, babies that don’t survive sometimes, you know, like there’s a lot of stress why dentists and, you know, like we try to hone in on it. But obviously some of the reasons are the patient’s awake. So some surgeons, for example, the patient’s on a table, but you’ve got patients giving you feedback, pain, stress, tiny fields to work in. Do you know what I mean? Like there’s all these accumulative effects. And quite interestingly, some dentists I don’t know if you knew this Payman, but I know too they commit suicide in their surgery, which I think is quite must mean something, you know.

Well, there’s access to, you know, things in the surgery that there is. But but I mean, it’s a very isolating job. Yeah. So it’s not like a brain surgeon community. Massive hospital. Right. Whereas dentists work sometimes in one room all day, all day. Um, but it’s not a new thing.

You haven’t ended the family. My uncle is actually was a dentist in a long retired.

It’s been it’s been true for 100 years, which is the crazy thing. Yeah. So. So maybe it’s the mercury.

Well, listen, we could. We’re probably going to have to bring you on for like, episode two. But I want to just ask you as well, um, what would you say to people that are struggling if they could do like three easy things to help them with regards to fitness and mental health kind of takeaway?

I think if they’re struggle, if they struggle mental health first and foremost, seek professional advice, right? So never underestimate someone else who can who’s trained to help you. Yeah, that’s number one. When it comes to other tools such as fitness and health and, you know, just just sign up for something and just commit to it. Yeah. Make a deal with yourself. Whatever motivates you. It’s really always hard to hard to answer a question that’s very general, especially when it comes to that, because I really like the sort of personal approach to, to, you know, to say, a client or um, but if there is, you know, mental health issues or people don’t feel well, it’s probably somewhere where there is a community where you can meet new people or you can meet like minded people. Yeah, probably as well, right? And then if you on a on, you know, on a very basic level, take one step at a time. Don’t try and change everything at the same time because if you do you’ll fail and most people do. So just do one thing, establish a habit and then so step. By step. So really it’s consistency and understanding what the issue is, or at least having having a brief understanding of, hey, this is this is wrong, I have to do something about it. So number one, establish there is an issue. Number two, be consistent in your approach that you do. But then again, we could probably discuss how can I be consistent, etcetera. So I think the professional help is always going to be number one.

I think the other thing was, is that we discussed like an on an ending note is about the importance of like neuroplasticity as well.

What does it mean?

So again, according to this, neuroscientists like our brains are always malleable To change the neuroplasticity is is that we absorb and our minds change according to our environment. The people that were in etcetera. Now it really drastically slows down at think 25. And what happens is, is then it’s almost like play Play-Doh. So before then you can mould it after, then it’s a bit hard and crusty. The Play-Doh you can it’s just a lot harder to deal with. But again.

There is actual I’ll interrupt you here, but go ahead. It’s funny because I in July, I went to Los Angeles for a conference, which is sort of idea world fitness. And, you know, there’s a lot of brilliant minds presenting. And one of the workshops was exactly on that. Yeah. And there’s an actual method of, of training that. Right. So you have to connect a few different things. So you have to give a person a cognitive task. Yeah. And auditory slash verbal cue and then also a physical task and it all has to be performed at the same time.

So can you give an example?

So for example, you have a clock, right as they call in the US the military clock. So 24 and you would say and then you have the quadrant, so you go lunges in different directions. So you tell them the time. So they have to think about the time and they have to step towards the time and say a their favourite colour or whatever. So it’s a few different things that you have to your brain has to multitask essentially at the same time, right? So your body has to do something, your brain has to do something, your voice has to do something. And that is proven to you to generate new brain cells, which is which is so and to establish new connections in your neural neurogenesis.

But then what do you get from that? It’s it’s.

Okay. Number one. Okay. Number one, it’s you take care of your brain health. Right. Which as we as you guys probably know amongst women. So dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, these are the the the I think the largest cause of death in the UK at least if I’m I might be wrong here but I looked at it but essentially taking care of your brain and and and helping the brain to stay stay vital for longer. So if you think about it, you know, you can even reverse or stop dementia or Alzheimer’s disease if you do it correctly and for a long time. Right. And trust me, if you do it for five minutes a day, I did it in that thing. At some point you’re like, whoa, what’s going on? It’s a great tip. It’s it’s actually it’s actually because your brain is takes burns. So much of your energy that after a few minutes you’re like, oh, God, like I’m fried. Right? But you just like when just like when a muscle you adapt, you.

Go muscle memory. Yeah, Yeah.

Now, that’s a great tip.

Are we allowed to.

Ask you how much it costs for you to be the, you know, your private trainer.

Payman wants to do once? You know.

I’m not I’m not taking any more clients at the moment because I’m busy.

Well, how much are your existing clients pay?

Uh, around. Not that much. That’s probably going to give me nothing. No, I don’t want to discuss this here, but. But we can talk about it afterwards. We can talk about it.

Yeah. Perfect.

Thank you so much, Arthur. It’s been amazing. So insightful. Really appreciate you coming.

Yeah, Thanks. Thank you. Thanks for coming. It’s been brilliant.

Thank you so much.

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