Annika Patel: You need to be confident with your wire bending. You know, I work with some specialists that can’t white bend and I’m like, [00:00:05] what the hell are you a specialist for? Then if you repositioning brackets because that’s expensive. I think it’s knowing [00:00:10] the red flags and the green flags, because everybody that’s coming for ortho is either [00:00:15] got a deadline, getting married. There’s always something. It’s something cosmetic around it, you know, and then the costumes, [00:00:20] like, you know, if they’re missing teeth, the implant plan, the soft, you know, soft tissue, hard tissue, all of the grafting, [00:00:25] plus your ortho plus your cosmetic, being able to sell big treatment plans and [00:00:30] being competent at saying ABC, this is what you need, and having it all like informed [00:00:35] consent at the beginning. Quick quotes, knowing what’s going on. I think that’s hard.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is mind movers. Moving [00:00:50] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation [00:00:55] for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:00] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome [00:01:05] to the Mind Movers podcast. Today we have an incredible dentist who is [00:01:10] one of the top orthodontists in the country. An incredibly inspiring woman. Annika Payman knows [00:01:15] I rarely invite dentists on the podcast because that’s his thing with dental Leaders. But when [00:01:20] I feel that somebody has something really special and a story to tell, I think it’s really important to share it [00:01:25] to the wider community, because obviously Mind Movers is about reaching different types of audiences. [00:01:30] So welcome, Annika, and we know that, you know, you are a incredible [00:01:35] dentist working in London. You’ve been an orthodontist for how many years? Ten years, [00:01:40] ten years? Private practice. You’re also a mother of two. Yes. And your husband is [00:01:45] also an owner of a practice that you work at as well. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. And I know that you have other hobbies [00:01:50] as well. We talk about your boxing, your yoga and other things. And I think one of the reasons why I [00:01:55] was drawn to you is because you are somebody that likes to do different things outside [00:02:00] of dentistry. You like to interact with people that are outside of dentistry. And for me that’s like really important. So welcome. [00:02:05] Thank you. So good to have you. So I like to start from [00:02:10] the beginning, you know, like some people have like very varied childhoods where they like tell us like, [00:02:15] you know, they’ve really struggled. There’s some people we had a guest last week that was like my childhood was amazing. Like [00:02:20] as in, like, there’s nothing really to tell. But for me, it’s always interesting because I think, you know, our childhood certainly shapes who we are. [00:02:25] So tell us a little bit about your background and you know how you grew up.

Annika Patel: So I, I would [00:02:30] say I realise that my childhood for me was normal until I got to uni. Um, [00:02:35] I was, you know, don’t come from a very privileged background. I had to work really hard, um, when, [00:02:40] I mean, work really hard. As soon as as soon as I got my own eyes. Get to work. Work in [00:02:45] retail, do all of this stuff. I ended up working in Currys for seven years. Oh, wow. Because, like, I [00:02:50] was a customer services agent, which is how I got the job with Nikki Martin, because they were like, God, you’re a [00:02:55] grafter. You worked for seven years at Currys. I was like, yeah, um, I used to, you know, do these [00:03:00] like long weekend shifts and then work in sort of the local hospital as well and just, you know, working [00:03:05] like mad hours and mad weeks and, you know, you’re like, oh, I’m 18 [00:03:10] and I’m rich. What do I do? And then, you know, because you know that your parents don’t have a lot. Or [00:03:15] anything like that. It’s one of those situations that you’re not a spender. You’re not sort of, you know, let me buy everything. [00:03:20] Let me look at this. I’ve got money in my account. It was sort of you. It it’s instilled from me from such an early [00:03:25] age that you’ve actually got to, you know, save, invest, you know, look after the people around [00:03:30] you, that sort of thing. So, you know, I had friends around me that were like, you know, working in next, you know, anywhere. And they were [00:03:35] just like, oh my God, got my paycheque. Like, yeah, literally splashed the cash type thing. Um, but [00:03:40] no, it’s been difficult. You know, it’s a struggle. You know, I did go to private school, but it was a struggle. It was literally [00:03:45] get the grades or you lose your assisted place, like do this. So were you.

Rhona Eskander: On a scholarship? Yeah. [00:03:50]

Annika Patel: So partial. Yeah. And, um, you know, it was a struggle and it was always, you [00:03:55] know, I’ve got Asian parents there, you know, from Uganda. They, you know, they came here via refugees, [00:04:00] kind of one of those situations where you’re like, I’ve got to do what I can [00:04:05] do because I had to stay working in curries for the rest of my life, or I do something else, you [00:04:10] know? You know, they were never pushy parents. They were never sort of like, you know, study, study, [00:04:15] study. I had a lot of freedom as a child because I’ve had to mature, you know, I’ve had to mature really, really fast. [00:04:20] And, you know, I remember starting work and everyone was so much older than me, and I was just had to kind of learn [00:04:25] things, and that’s good and bad. You know, I fell into wrong crowd. So, you know, didn’t get the grades, [00:04:30] didn’t do. There’s a lot that I learned, but I always learn lessons from negatives, like, there’s no way about it. And that’s literally [00:04:35] why I know when I first met you, you were like, God, I, you know, can’t break you [00:04:40] type thing. You’re very resilient and, you know, and that kind of way. But I’ve had so many situations because I’m not a conformist. [00:04:45] I just literally I just do what I want, when I want, but I’m mature enough to know situations. Yeah, [00:04:50] I think.

Payman Langroudi: That working in retail gives you a wonderful sort of exposure to different types [00:04:55] of people.

Annika Patel: It does, it does. It’s um, I mean, customer services at Currys was an amazing. [00:05:00] Oh, God, my cooker is broken. It’s Christmas. You’re like, yeah, all right. Great. Now you know that sort of situation. [00:05:05] But it doing working when you’re young and doing different types of things [00:05:10] and seeing how business is run and seeing. Yeah, you know, at that time nothing was electronic. I mean [00:05:15] I’m showing my age a little bit. It was a very like type de de de de de y and like it was that situation, [00:05:20] you know, so it was different. It wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t as easy as it is now. And you had [00:05:25] a lot of responsibility. Sickness was taken seriously. You know, nowadays I don’t think sickness is, you know, anyone can call in [00:05:30] sick and you ring a temp agency, don’t you? I remember back then they used to monitor on a percentage and say, you know, [00:05:35] you’ve had more than 6%, you get a disciplinary and it was mass retail, you know. [00:05:40] So all of these things you take and even the people I worked with on the desk, they were like, you know [00:05:45] what, Annie, why don’t you sit at the back and, um, you know, study. You’ve got your, you know, all through dentistry. I was at dental school [00:05:50] working in Cardiff, you know, and they’d be like, sit at the back.

Payman Langroudi: Did you work throughout the dental course as well?

Rhona Eskander: Wow. My [00:05:55] whole thing. I want to know, how did you get into dentistry? Was it something you fell into? Was something your parents, I mean, [00:06:00] you know, like your parents encouraged you because obviously, as you said, like being a middle eastern. For [00:06:05] me, it was like medicine, dentistry, law, you know, engineering, I’m sure same [00:06:10] like Iranian background, like, you know, you’ve got your kind of like degrees, but then the degrees are [00:06:15] considered to be kind of credible. I’m lucky that I love dentistry. I speak to a lot of dentists. I’m sure you do that. Like, I [00:06:20] only did it because of my parents, because of, like, culture. What was your story for dentistry?

Annika Patel: So I didn’t fall [00:06:25] into it. I wasn’t an academic throughout school. I actually played in orchestra. [00:06:30] I was I had three instruments. I used to do orchestra after school. I played double bass clarinet, piano. [00:06:35] Piano was an orchestral thing, you know, that was my life and I could paint. So I did a lot of art and music. [00:06:40] So I did, you know, art took over basically because you have to provide a lot of quality and quantity. [00:06:45] So I was like, screw science. No one cares. No one cares about year nine, year ten. [00:06:50] I applied to be a young presenter. Tv presenter. Wow. Um, GMTV with, uh, Fran Cotton [00:06:55] and I got through to the final four. Wow, wow. And that was the first time that I [00:07:00] thought I was winning. And then I lost. You know that first heartbreak that you have? Yeah, it was, [00:07:05] you know, a bit of a a bit of a struggle actually, because it was I went to a school and it was all about league tables [00:07:10] and it was all about doing well. And I wasn’t an academic. I was a 5050, you know? So I [00:07:15] was like, yes, I’m going to get out of school, I’m going to leave school, I’m going to go to drama school, I’m going to, you know, do all of this other stuff and, [00:07:20] you know, spent a year kind of, you know, training myself through auditions, passing auditions, [00:07:25] and like, I’m bloody good at the creatives.

Annika Patel: This is something I’m good at after not being good [00:07:30] at so many things. And then obviously it didn’t go well. Then the school like you have to like [00:07:35] tone it down now you need to go to school. You need to do your juicer seeds. You need to do separate sciences. We’re choosing your subjects [00:07:40] for you. You’re not allowed to do art and music at the same time. You choose one. If you want to do art, you need [00:07:45] to do art school. And my whole life just got laid out not by my parents, but by the school I went to, [00:07:50] which was, it’s ridiculous because it’s not me, you know? And I was good at stupid things like electronics, [00:07:55] you know? Yeah, like really stupid things. And, um, I [00:08:00] was like, fine, but going into A-levels, I’m still going to carry on my art because that was [00:08:05] who I was. That was literally. And then even when I got my A-level results at that time, you had to get an A and tubes to get into [00:08:10] dental school. Now I was going to do history of art at uni.

Annika Patel: I wasn’t doing dentistry and the eight [00:08:15] people in my art A-level were all going to fine art, going to Wimbledon, going to Goldsmiths, everybody. We [00:08:20] were all on the same course. The people that had reached this at our school, it was pretty strict. So [00:08:25] if you’d reached your ceiling in art then you would you weren’t allowed to sit the A-level basically, [00:08:30] because you couldn’t do any more. So for me they were like, no, you can. There’s [00:08:35] so much you can do, like you haven’t reached your potential, keep going kind of thing. I got my a of [00:08:40] got my a. Yeah. But my school refused to let me apply for dentistry because I was [00:08:45] too thick basically. So they said I had to apply for biomedical sciences before that. [00:08:50] I wasn’t happy with that because I didn’t really want to do pre-med. I didn’t want to do science, like it wasn’t really my thing. [00:08:55] And so I had to beg them. I literally had to talk them into letting me do a maths level, just [00:09:00] to kind of have the fourth subject or whatever. I went to my interviews as well for dental school, [00:09:05] like without the grades. So I just I was like, look, look at my, look at my extracurricular. You know, [00:09:10] I do this.

Rhona Eskander: So they accepted you for the interviews?

Annika Patel: Yeah. Accepted me for the interviews. They accepted [00:09:15] me with my art portfolio, which was this big that I took from my manual dexterity. They got very excited by [00:09:20] a sweet, sweet corn batik that I did because they’d never seen a batik, which is like silk with wax. And you blur [00:09:25] the, um.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study? Kings?

Annika Patel: Everything, guys. [00:09:30] For everything.

Rhona Eskander: So then you’ve got the grades, then after that. So they give, you got the grades, so they got you, gave you conditional offer. I’m assuming [00:09:35] three. I mean, they gave me it was Atb’s.

Annika Patel: But the A could be in any subject. So the one I picked, you know, when you [00:09:40] went to get your A-level results, they basically were like there was an envelope and I’m like, could [00:09:45] you please ring King’s College and actually ask them if you can get in with an A and Art? And I was like, [00:09:50] wow, this is going to keep going the whole of my life. Yeah. Um, and then got [00:09:55] to dental school and I was like, who the hell are these people?

Rhona Eskander: Same. I mean, what. [00:10:00]

Annika Patel: Is this like?

Rhona Eskander: You never forget which people?

Payman Langroudi: The other students.

Annika Patel: Yeah. Not my type. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And that’s [00:10:05] the thing. Like, because this is one thing that we always talk about, I will never forget. Really, weirdly, [00:10:10] I went to go visit Bristol. Two of my friends, they were studying English and politics because when I was at school [00:10:15] I was really like good. I was really good at chemistry, actually, but I was [00:10:20] amazing at English Lit and philosophy, and I ended [00:10:25] up choosing English Lit and philosophy and for a level, and that was fine. And my teachers were like, [00:10:30] she’s got to go to Oxford. Like they took me to Oxford and they were like, she’s got to go here. And obviously at that [00:10:35] time I was like, really like loved like the whole Harry Potter thing that was going [00:10:40] on in Oxford and like these, like Prince William type guys. And I’d never seen that growing up [00:10:45] in kind of like London. And I wanted to get go to Bristol and Bristol. I guess I wanted [00:10:50] to go because I felt like it would suit me more socially, and Bristol rejected me. So Bristol [00:10:55] gave me the interview and they rejected me. And I’ll never forget the interview. Like I literally went probably hair similar [00:11:00] to this, earrings, a suit, like all this stuff. And you could tell they didn’t like me immediately and they [00:11:05] were asking me really weird questions.

Rhona Eskander: Cut the interview short, and then I got a rejection. And then my mum’s. And I was [00:11:10] devastated, I was devastated, so what happened was, is [00:11:15] that after that I, um, when I got my Leeds interview, my mum said, [00:11:20] tone down who you are. Wear a plain suit, no jewellery, no makeup, straighten your hair [00:11:25] and just basically talk about how passionate you are about the NHS. And [00:11:30] guess what? I got the place. And it’s really sad because I tell this story because I had I felt like I had to be someone I wasn’t [00:11:35] to get a place into dentistry because I feel like the people that choose the applicants [00:11:40] choose it based on some kind of like ideal. If they have, I don’t know. He’s like giving me a dirty look. I don’t know what [00:11:45] that means. And but wait for it. Then I got to dental school, Leeds and I was the same as [00:11:50] you. I was like, who are these people? They were just not my people. And because I went to Leeds as well, [00:11:55] a lot of them were like, you sound really posh, you know? And I was like, okay. And they were like, they kind of making fun of my [00:12:00] accent and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Look, University is about meeting people who are not your people. That’s what university [00:12:05] is. I’m surprised you were surprised because you’d met all these people in curries and [00:12:10] all that. So you. I would have thought you’d be able to deal with.

Annika Patel: I’m from South London.

Rhona Eskander: Any anyone [00:12:15] from south London?

Annika Patel: Not from north London. And the whole of King’s is north London. And yeah, [00:12:20] it’s different. It’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: But what I was going to say though, you know, maybe you rub these people up the wrong way [00:12:25] with your hair. Yeah. It’s possible, it’s possible. But I remember with my interviews I said something [00:12:30] in one of them and it went down really well. And I said the exact same thing in another one. It [00:12:35] went down like a lead balloon. Yeah. And and I know it was a bit political or something maybe. [00:12:40]

Annika Patel: But I but.

Rhona Eskander: But I personally think that dental school is so old [00:12:45] school. Sorry, excuse the pun, but like. It is for me. Dentistry. [00:12:50] Dental school is about choosing people that fit a stereotype. [00:12:55] That’s what I believe. And they want to see that you’re the kind of person that will give your [00:13:00] soul to an institution. Basically, that’s what I think. And also even [00:13:05] now when I speak to dental students, their professors really sadly [00:13:10] slag off like Instagram dentists or even technology like, you know, they [00:13:15] might say like, oh, look at this dentist that’s done like a bio emulation technique and an old school professor, like, it doesn’t [00:13:20] work. It will fail immediately. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like it’s so backward. That’s my personal view. [00:13:25] You know.

Payman Langroudi: What? It’s skewed a little bit in that when you’re a student, the only dentist you meet [00:13:30] are university teachers. And university teachers are a very particular type of dentist. [00:13:35] Yeah. They’re maybe I don’t know, they’re 2% of all dentists, but that’s the only type of dentist that you [00:13:40] need. Yeah. And so yeah, you’re right. Those guys are more conservative. Yeah.

Annika Patel: I think when [00:13:45] you’ve done the full loop like I have where I know how you feel, and I remember being like that. And you’re right, [00:13:50] you do meet your people. So I was lucky I did meet my people. And they were luckily all from Stratham and south [00:13:55] London. And I did meet my little group, and I’ve got really good uni friends that I’m still friends with, you know. And [00:14:00] I did struggle because, you know, the holidays, everyone else was going on holiday and I was going to curries [00:14:05] and my shirt was going from blue to yellow, you know, that kind of situation.

Payman Langroudi: And of course, it’s hard enough [00:14:10] working. How many hours a week were you working?

Annika Patel: Oh, so I was doing all of [00:14:15] the summers. I was doing pretty much, what, 9 to 5 at the hospital full time? Yeah, on the PC, because I was doing little [00:14:20] project like, you know, when someone has like an MRI, I was like the person with the.

Rhona Eskander: What’s [00:14:25] that word called?

Annika Patel: You know, that sort of. You know, I did everything, just stapling. I did anything [00:14:30] on the bank. I was a bank stuff. Right. And I was doing that as soon as I got my knee, so I wasn’t [00:14:35] I wasn’t allowed to climb ladders until I got my card. But, you know, I was pretty much there. So I ended up working in every department [00:14:40] in cardiology, everything around the hospital. So I knew how the NHS worked, I knew how hospitals worked, and then [00:14:45] I’d get come out. The 209 bus would be there, and then I’d get the bus around to curries. Wow. And then I’d [00:14:50] do the 5 to 8 shift. So I would do that constantly every [00:14:55] time we had like the eight week break or, you know. Yeah. Um, and I did it and, [00:15:00] you know, it was for me. It didn’t feel like it felt it wasn’t sort of like, [00:15:05] you know, some people get, um, you know, they see the numbers stacking up in their bank account and that’s what [00:15:10] gives them value. But for me, it just felt like security. That’s what it was. You know, I never used to check my accounts or anything. Just [00:15:15] it felt like security. So and it helped because I had to put myself through dental school. I had to [00:15:20] also pay for the ortho, you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Well, like, let’s talk about that. So when you graduated, [00:15:25] did you ever have a period of working in general practice?

Annika Patel: I did so like I did with curries all the way [00:15:30] through dental school. I worked in a, my practice in Brixton all the way through ortho as well. So [00:15:35] I did the same thing, but like on a Saturday. So when did you.

Rhona Eskander: Decide you wanted to be an orthodontist?

Annika Patel: So I had a [00:15:40] bit of a rubbish V2 experience. Um, I Brixton, I was.

Rhona Eskander: Going to say imagine. Yeah.

Annika Patel: No, [00:15:45] my trainer just decided not to be there, supportive or there or anything. Um, [00:15:50] I think it’s quite easy sometimes just to take the money and run and then just keep, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, you do hear stories. [00:15:55]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. My trainer was very supportive, to be honest. Go on. Yeah. So it was.

Annika Patel: A bit of a situation like that. [00:16:00] And I’m a strong enough character to be like, you know what, let me just get my phone out and ring someone from, you know, ring [00:16:05] a friend of a friend from King’s who’s an Sho at the moment or what should I do? Or the stench doesn’t fit. So I had enough common [00:16:10] sense to say, actually, don’t panic. You know, there’s stuff that you can do. But, you [00:16:15] know, I wasn’t getting that support at all, and I couldn’t really work out. What is this? What I want to [00:16:20] do? Is this actually what I want to do? Because I was told to do all this stuff, and then I thought I [00:16:25] changed the dentistry in A-levels only because my friends were doing it and stuff like that, and I was like the FOMO of [00:16:30] oh, should I do art? Should you know it? Nothing made sense to me. So the, um, [00:16:35] educational head, the TPD, um, had a meeting with me, took me for a jacket potato, and he just asked me a few [00:16:40] random questions about JIC and stuff. Um, and he’s like, oh, I just don’t think you’re a [00:16:45] bad dentist. You seem to know everything. I was like, I know everything, but I don’t have the support. [00:16:50] Like, you know, I get it. Everyone has a different style of teaching, but I just don’t believe people should [00:16:55] be a teacher if they can’t teach, you know? And I teach and train and do things like that now. [00:17:00] And when I see some of the knowledge that people are absorbing from just back to back 50 slides [00:17:05] on a PowerPoint versus, you know, actually stand up, tell me what you want. You know, it’s [00:17:10] it’s just different techniques essentially, you know, so, you know, I don’t begrudge my trainer. [00:17:15] It’s fine. But on the back of that I was just like, I’m going into show, forget this. As [00:17:20] soon as I went into show, you know, did you like it? Met my people. It was amazing. So everybody [00:17:25] that does backing goes back. So I did a few. I did Saint George’s, uh, guys, max backs. [00:17:30] You know.

Rhona Eskander: All the thing that you say that because obviously, you know leader, she’s one of my best friends. And she said [00:17:35] to me her show year was one of the most difficult years of her life. She was she said she [00:17:40] was an Oxford and, you know, she was doing all the, like, Christmas shifts and all that stuff. And like she said [00:17:45] that she’ll never forget the first day she was put into hospital. And obviously, like, there’s the overlap with medicine, [00:17:50] right. Because she was doing Max FACs and then basically they threw her into a ward and I think someone had like lung [00:17:55] problems and they were like, do something. And she was like, but I don’t know, I’m a dentist. Like all the patient’s going to die. Then, you know, it was very like [00:18:00] a bullying kind of thing, especially when the consultants and she found it really difficult. That is true of Max. Yeah. [00:18:05]

Annika Patel: I’m the 94 that the oral surgery piece, all the dental specialities. It’s a different thing. Yeah. To the point [00:18:10] that the oral surgery for all 23 guys, I ended up skiing with them every year from age 21 [00:18:15] to when I had my maybe my three year old. Yeah. Wow. And I’m going again, Jan. So I’m back again, [00:18:20] you know. Yeah. Um, because it’s just different. It’s different types of people. [00:18:25] They’re not sort of money orientated. They’re not business orientated. They’re kind of, [00:18:30] you know, they’re just different.

Payman Langroudi: People mission orientated. Yeah.

Annika Patel: They’re just [00:18:35] it’s completely different. You know, during Covid they all they cared about was their waiting lists, you know really like no, we need to [00:18:40] get all these teeth. We need to extract, extract, extract. Even if everyone’s doing splitting the day into three sessions [00:18:45] we’ll get it done. Like they completely different mindset. Yeah. So yeah Max banks like [00:18:50] I do understand because nobody teaches you to do a death in dentistry. Yeah. People [00:18:55] do die on max Max wards. And again that just builds you because you know, you’re going into Max Max not to [00:19:00] become an orthodontist, but because actually, what am I going to take from this? What? How is that going to change me or [00:19:05] build me?

Rhona Eskander: She did that pre ortho. Actually, I don’t know why we had to. You have something after three months. Yeah. [00:19:10] So you didn’t have to though. Why did you. Six. You said it afterwards. No I did at Saint George’s. Okay fine. [00:19:15]

Annika Patel: So I went to guy’s and went to Saint George’s. So how did.

Rhona Eskander: You know ortho was your thing to do?

Annika Patel: It wasn’t [00:19:20] actually. So I was again because I can’t very indecisive. So it’s between oral surgery. And also. [00:19:25] Yeah, because obviously I was really good friends with the oral surgeons. You know, I like the [00:19:30] fact that I’ve got manual dexterity. I’m, I know I can be an.

Rhona Eskander: Artist as well. You said. Yeah, I like [00:19:35] wire.

Annika Patel: Bending and stuff like that, especially speciality training. I don’t think anyone knows what they really, really [00:19:40] want to do. And all anyone ever tells you is you’re never going to get in. It’s sort of, you know, needle in a haystack situation. [00:19:45] So actually, one of my cousins gave me the advice of get a blank form, try [00:19:50] and fill it out. Just see what you see, what you got. Just try and fill it out and then build on it. So [00:19:55] I did and I said, oh my God, I fill out the whole application form. So I did and sent her like that. Was it really? [00:20:00] But then when you go through the interview process, it’s the same shit again. It’s literally like, well, just let’s because. [00:20:05]

Rhona Eskander: I’m sure there’s lots of people that are very curious. Is it? It’s a hugely competitive speciality. [00:20:10] Hugely. So. Do you know any of the stats, like how many people actually get in and stuff like that. [00:20:15]

Annika Patel: Don’t really know the stats because things have changed. You know, I qualified, I got in [00:20:20] when what, 13, 14 years ago. So things are definitely changed. And for me it was sort of based London, [00:20:25] the North. It was different and now it’s national.

Rhona Eskander: So what did they judge you to get in for? So when you apply how [00:20:30] do they judge you. Like like how do they give you a place.

Annika Patel: So you fill out a form and you have to have a publication. [00:20:35] You have to have done an audit, show evidence of clinical governance, had a bad thing happen to you, or a difficult [00:20:40] situation like A&E or, you know, fractured mandible, something like that. And then when you go to say a deanery [00:20:45] interview, it’s a set thing where you have different three panels. You might have one on academics, [00:20:50] one on clinical governance, one on just extra bits and bobs, and then it’s panels of four, [00:20:55] and then they just score you based on your answers. I know that I probably didn’t pass any of those panels because I didn’t really know [00:21:00] what they were talking about to be said. Yeah, well, what are you actually asking me? You know what? And have you done [00:21:05] your mjff. That’s another tick point, right? The Mjff.

Rhona Eskander: I did that.

Annika Patel: Too.

Rhona Eskander: Did you paid for it for years. [00:21:10] And then I got rid of it. I was like, what’s the point of paying? You know, it’s silly.

Annika Patel: Um, but you have to have your mjff [00:21:15] part one to be able to do the RCS for the Mauth and stuff like that. But I know the only reason I got in it was [00:21:20] because I think I’ll name him Martin Coburn. Last panel came in, I think [00:21:25] he’d had enough of all of these people coming in. So, Annie, what was the last book you read? [00:21:30] What’s the last book I read? Okay. And I think he’d had To Kill a mockingbird maybe 56 times. [00:21:35] And I was just like, oh, um, they’re giving away a free, um, Rick Stein’s new cookbook. It was free on [00:21:40] on the on the tube because it’s well booked. And I was like, just read it on the tube, basically. Um, all right. Heavy [00:21:45] seafood. Yeah. But, you know, whatever. And then he just. I just saw his eyes light up, [00:21:50] and he was just like, conversation. I was like, yeah, it was a conversation. It shouldn’t be so hardcore. [00:21:55] Life shouldn’t be so intense. Like, you know, just because you’ve got this criteria and this kind of syllabus, [00:22:00] you know. It would be outside the box, you know? I mean, I [00:22:05] believe that space is the like I literally believe this one thing that Matisse said, space is the dimension of [00:22:10] your imagination. So you can do anything. You can be anything you can. Do anything, [00:22:15] but you can’t conform. You can’t just be 1 to 10 on a list or, you know, that kind of thing.

Rhona Eskander: But this [00:22:20] is what I try to say. That is that people they want, they want. Especially like when [00:22:25] I was studying dentistry, they wanted people to conform. And I just found it really, [00:22:30] really. There was a couple of like professors. I still remember them and bless him, like one of the dean apparently [00:22:35] now like talks with me of Pride at Leeds and he just retired and the students asked [00:22:40] me to do a video for him because apparently he still because he was one of the he was actually an endodontist and he [00:22:45] was a dean. And like I think he saw because the funny thing was, is I [00:22:50] wanted to another similarity. I wanted to be a TV presenter as like another job. If people ask me, what would [00:22:55] you do if you weren’t a dentist? I would have loved to be a TV presenter. I loved [00:23:00] it because the AC she loves it.

Annika Patel: I applied to most like. [00:23:05]

Rhona Eskander: But like pay. Come on. Like podcasting in a way. Is TV presenting [00:23:10] like think about it, it’s presenting, right? So for me, I was always comfortable in front of the camera [00:23:15] and I just loved it. Like three years old, like you’d see my dad, like with the video camera, like push my sister out the way [00:23:20] and I’m like, dancing away. And I just loved it. And I always felt like I could connect with a camera [00:23:25] and an audience really, really well. And I felt that, you know, you could always kind of like, portray [00:23:30] a message. But if I’m honest with you, one regret I have in my life is that I think I had self-limiting [00:23:35] beliefs, number one, because of the narrative that only one person in like a billion makes [00:23:40] it as a successful TV presenter. Number two, that, you know, within like the Middle Eastern, [00:23:45] like society. And the way that I was brought up, it was like, well, you’ve also got a shelf life. Like, how long are you going to [00:23:50] do it for? And then like, how are you going to have money after that? So that was all that. And it was interesting because [00:23:55] I was listening to Maya Jama, I think like her story. And Maya said that when she was like 13, [00:24:00] she knew she wanted to be a TV presenter or even younger. And she put it like [00:24:05] on her vision board that even like by like 25, she was going to be like presenting the Brits [00:24:10] or whatever it was. And I was like, you know, I truly am a believer that if you really want to do something, you can [00:24:15] make it happen. And I think it was probably the self-limiting belief that made me believe that I couldn’t do it. Just like, no. [00:24:20]

Annika Patel: That is the most important thing because for most people within what we do, somebody tells them, you’re [00:24:25] shit, you’re a crap dentist. That’s what they believe. And their self-esteem and their the self-worth. [00:24:30] Everything. Just they can’t even do dentistry, you know, you just feel like you probably can’t even communicate [00:24:35] with those patients because they haven’t, you know, strength is something, you know, it’s like gym. You build it over time and [00:24:40] from the lessons that you’ve had and things like that. But if you know, you know yourself and you know what [00:24:45] the problem is for a lot of people, they don’t know that. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Well, tell me I’m interested [00:24:50] in this question. You’re saying, you know, don’t conform. Think outside of the box. Be yourself. All of these things. [00:24:55] How did you translate those sort of ideas into ortho [00:25:00] ortho training. How how were you looking at things differently to the next?

Annika Patel: Quite interestingly, [00:25:05] I bumped into another professor in London Bridge the other day and I said, Prof. Mcdonald, [00:25:10] let’s take a selfie. Number one. Number two, thank you so much for your advice. He said, what was that? Do something [00:25:15] different to the other orthodontists. Yes, that’s the advice he gave me. Do you [00:25:20] be different to the other orthodontists? So I’m heavy lingual. So I do a lot of lingual [00:25:25] orthodontics and that’s great because no one else can be.

Rhona Eskander: And it’s controversial in a way, because like some orthodontists [00:25:30] don’t even, like really believe in lingual, you know, I mean, it’s.

Annika Patel: Because can’t do won’t do. You know, it’s um, [00:25:35] what’s interesting is I had a lot of. You know, is a hierarchy in the hospital, isn’t there? [00:25:40] And if they can’t do it, you can’t do it. If they are in the NHS, you can’t leave the NHS. [00:25:45] The advice I was given, uh, you know, I had a few problems during my training. Um, [00:25:50] you know, I was, I was actually a very good student. I decided to stay single for three years, just really dedicate [00:25:55] my life to, you know, doing all of this work and stuff. Can I ask you something?

Rhona Eskander: Bit provocative question, [00:26:00] but I get a lot of messages from women, mainly medics, actually concerned about [00:26:05] family, concerned about having babies, concerned about this. And they say, I’ve dedicated so many [00:26:10] years to studying because I had to get through my speciality training. Do you regret that? Do you think making the decision [00:26:15] to be single is necessary, or do you think that it was, you know, a mistake, [00:26:20] as it were?

Annika Patel: We have the path that we have. Okay, I’ve gotten toward those. So what’s [00:26:25] the choice? I know myself, I know that I’m easily distracted. My choice is meet someone, [00:26:30] get married during speciality training, have my kids during training or not there. Your [00:26:35] two options, aren’t they? I know myself, I know that I would do it this way and I don’t regret doing it this way. [00:26:40] There was that regret when I turned 30 going, oh my God, I haven’t got anyone, haven’t got house, haven’t got [00:26:45] a car, haven’t, you know, all this stuff I had, I thought I would have when I was 18, I was doing so well when I was 18, hit [00:26:50] 30 and I might as well be 18. Do you know what I mean? It’s you’ve got your own mouth and everything. What do [00:26:55] you really have, you know, do you have the relationship and etc., etc. the number of specialist [00:27:00] orthodontists that are single or social, you can’t, you know, can’t find someone, you know, the women, [00:27:05] especially Asian women who, you know, they’re on what, second wave, on the divorce spectrum [00:27:10] like that way. Because, you know, in the in the culture, [00:27:15] you should have got married between 20 and 30 or whatever it was, you know? So the fact that. You [00:27:20] know, I met Raj at what, 31? We went to uni together. Fine. We knew each other before, but, you know, we got together [00:27:25] 31. You know, I’m 38 now. I’ve got a one year old. I’ve got a three year old. I’ve [00:27:30] done things a lot later. Not everyone can get pregnant. You know, I’m a one hit wonder. Fine. Like, not everyone [00:27:35] has that luck. That’s why they have to freeze their eggs, go through other things, blood tests, etc. and then you’ve [00:27:40] got the pressure of. Career verses you can you have it all? Can you have it all? The thing [00:27:45] is.

Rhona Eskander: You know, I really struggled as well during university because all my friends started dating. [00:27:50] So I had this narrative. First of all, I worked really hard at school, I partied, we had like cool, like [00:27:55] boys schools we hang out with, like Highgate UK’s. I’m sure you like, know all those boys schools. And I was [00:28:00] really like focussed. And I was like, no, no, no, I’m going to like get into dental school. Then I thought I’d go into dental school. Then I thought it [00:28:05] was going to be a Disney situation. Someone’s going to see me fall in love and then it’s going to be the end of it. And then actually, [00:28:10] I had to like be a uni more, right? Because all the girls I lived with, none of them were dentists, right? So they had longer [00:28:15] summer holidays, longer holidays in general. I couldn’t date as much and I [00:28:20] constantly went out because I made it, but I feel it was a lot harder [00:28:25] to sustain like a long term relationship. I did meet my long term partner when I was 23 and we stayed [00:28:30] together. Then what? Then? Harder than my friends. Do you see what I mean? They were dossing around a bit at university, [00:28:35] going out, getting wasted, meeting people, like doing all of those experiences. And the [00:28:40] thing is, is that that’s why a lot of lots of dentists paired off together. Dentists, day dentists, because they [00:28:45] were like the reality of like the difficulty of like, you know, dating someone that wasn’t a dentist, [00:28:50] as it were, you know, getting up, being in clinics, less summer holidays, you know, all those different things. [00:28:55] So I really understand why people did that. And I think that there is [00:29:00] a pressure because by the time you’ve graduated, and even if you’re going to speciality training, you’re like 27, 30. [00:29:05]

Annika Patel: And it becomes a gamble, doesn’t it? Do you really want to be an orthodontist? Who do you want to be? Do [00:29:10] you want to be at home with your kids? And you know, we know we’re going to go on to, you know, [00:29:15] the nature of my lack of mat leave. But, you know, what are you going to do? Who are you marrying? What? [00:29:20] You know, things like even nursery fees or expensive mortgages are expensive. [00:29:25] You need to work out so much in a relationship and in a couple in terms of your [00:29:30] finances, essentially. Can you afford everything? Then if you do have kids, will you be sending them to private school? Not, [00:29:35] you know, there’s so many different things that you need to factor in and then make that decision backwards and say, [00:29:40] did I make the right choice? What’s important?

Payman Langroudi: What about look, you tell me, both of you tell me. [00:29:45] These days there’s a lot more single career women if you want to say. Yeah, [00:29:50] and some of them by choice. No.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think so. But, like, really, [00:29:55] I was just listening to a podcast now with Jay Qazi and Esther Perel, and Esther Perel was [00:30:00] talking about really interesting thing where, um, the world that we live [00:30:05] in now makes it so much more difficult because the stuff that we have to navigate through is so [00:30:10] different to our parents generation. And she said, like, for example, people want to find a soul mate on a [00:30:15] dating app, and that in itself is a contradiction because you’re trying to [00:30:20] make capitalism and spirituality meet. I’ve never thought about it like that, because a dating app is capitalism, [00:30:25] right? People are trying to like because they’ve created an app to make money. That’s the whole idea. And [00:30:30] then spirituality, the idea of finding your soul mate, do you see what I mean? So actually it’s a contradiction. It’s a [00:30:35] really interesting podcast. And then she talks about all these different things that you then the comparison [00:30:40] starts.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is that today, today compared to but this is 20 years ago. This is what’s [00:30:45] the difference.

Rhona Eskander: But this is the whole point because, well, first of all, women have more choices. We have more choices. [00:30:50] And I think the other thing is, is that women have more of a voice [00:30:55] and they recognise their worth. But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: So. So there we go. We have you have more [00:31:00] choices. You’ve got, you’ve got a voice. You use that choice and that voice to be single. [00:31:05] So that’s the sort of decision to be single. Yeah, I’m saying there’s definitely a lot more women like that that I come across. [00:31:10] But also, is it that it’s harder to find a soul mate? [00:31:15] Do you know what this isn’t?

Annika Patel: This world isn’t really built for women in terms of being a career woman [00:31:20] and doing the rest of it. You know, you’ve got the 3:00 pickup. That’s not normal. If [00:31:25] you’ve got a 9 to 5 job, you’ve got, you know, I read the other day that rims are colder by five degrees [00:31:30] to the base of the metabolic rate of a 45 year old man. Not for a woman, you know, really, everything is gauged that men [00:31:35] are entitled. So I think women just basically, you know, it’s it they [00:31:40] struggle. They they’re trying to survive in a male dominated world, especially if they’re a career woman, you know, who [00:31:45] are you going to be partner or are you going to be partner is constant. So time flies, isn’t it? Time just [00:31:50] goes away with you and you’re such a dominating character by the end of it because you’re just, you know, [00:31:55] survival of the fittest for so long that actually when you try and find someone, will that guy put up with a [00:32:00] woman like that? Sometimes you know where you’re calling all the shots, or you’re so [00:32:05] dominating or opinionated or, you know, trying to shout the loudest. You know, [00:32:10] there’s all of that kind of conflict that you have with the male. Like, I’m yeah, I’m a career woman, but [00:32:15] I’m also that person. You know, I’m I’m horrible to my husband. I’m [00:32:20] not gonna lie like he’s you know, I feel terrible. I’m terrible to him. He’s like the nicest [00:32:25] person in the world, you know what I mean? And because I’m so stressed by this, this clinic, [00:32:30] this email, this, this lingual blah. And I’m so, like, focussed on work so much of the time because [00:32:35] obviously they’re, you know, high paying patients, etc.. But all I do is snap, snap, [00:32:40] snap and my one year old snap. Up to now, she doesn’t even talk. But she goes to nursery.

Payman Langroudi: Is it? Is it being a woman [00:32:45] that makes you that? I mean, it could be a super focussed man and have the same problem. I understand [00:32:50] childbirth, we’ve we’ve talked about this right. Having a kid. Yeah. Is is different for a man than a woman. [00:32:55] Yeah, totally.

Rhona Eskander: It changes your whole life.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah. And you can see that particularly when the second one [00:33:00] comes along. I find the first one kind of because fits into your life a bit. But once the second one comes along, [00:33:05] there is no you go.

Annika Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, but but the question is this. Yeah, that surely [00:33:10] today is the best time to be a woman.

Rhona Eskander: I disagree because [00:33:15] I think that you need to be. I think you need to be in your masculine and your feminine at the same time. Like [00:33:20] I’ve never felt men, never felt more pressured to be a successful businesswoman. And now [00:33:25] then to be like the perfect wife and the perfect like and the immense pressure, [00:33:30] that taste.

Payman Langroudi: Of perfection, that’s the problem, right? And is that a female thing?

Annika Patel: No. You’ve got to be at peace [00:33:35] with yourself and be like, well, you know what? Some days I’m not a good wife or a good mum or a good orthodontist. [00:33:40] Do you know what? But I’m a human and you have to be at peace with yourself. And I, you know, when people are stressed [00:33:45] and they ring me up and they offload and, like, throw it in the bin, that’s literally my saying. Just throw it in the bin, start again, [00:33:50] focus and just refocus everything again. And tomorrow. You might be an exceptional [00:33:55] mum, an exceptional you know, I took my kid to the wrong birthday party on Saturday. I took it [00:34:00] down the hill, you know, with my birthday presents. No one chucked me out. Didn’t know any parents. Got a phone [00:34:05] call from up the hill. Wrong soft play, honey, I’m such a shit, mum. Why? Why would it be me? But actually, that’s [00:34:10] my personality. Because I know myself.

Rhona Eskander: Well, let’s talk about that in dentistry. Because you and I have talked at length [00:34:15] about this issue. Right. So first of all, what do you think was one of the most life [00:34:20] shaping experiences you had during your training? Um, [00:34:25] that affected your mental health but also helped you grow?

Annika Patel: So I thought I [00:34:30] was very good as a trainee orthodontist. Turned up, never called in sick, managed multiple [00:34:35] clinics. You know, when people other people called in sick, I thought I was really good, got my thesis out, published [00:34:40] it in the European Journal. You know, I was finally the model student finally, after all these years. [00:34:45] And then I went for my RCP. Now, what an RCP is, is a big, [00:34:50] long boardroom with all these consultants around it. And they basically there’s [00:34:55] two places, the deanery and the college. They’re two different things. So [00:35:00] the deanery gives you your training number and that’s how you get your 30 grand salary. Yeah. And these [00:35:05] training numbers are like gold dust. And that’s how you get your ortho post. Okay. So you’re not paying. You’re just [00:35:10] a salaried dentist essentially. Then you’ve got the college which all the consultants and the profs [00:35:15] etc. they have their own politics. They’ve got their own stuff going on. Fine. That’s not my business. [00:35:20] I turned up to this RCP going, I’m killing life. I’ve got like I’m teaching all the all the international [00:35:25] students, you know, separately, you know, going on holiday. Yeah. You failed. [00:35:30] You’re a trainee in difficulty. I’m like, what do you want? What are you talking about? I’m a bloody. And I saw [00:35:35] I literally saw Prof.

Annika Patel: Gobin looking at, you know, going through my folder going, why the hell is Arnie here? [00:35:40] What’s going on? Like what? So the three years that I decided to do ortho was the time that they decided [00:35:45] to go online and a bit of an experiment, the online kind of portal for they [00:35:50] have these things called dots and mini cex. And can you put a separator in. Yep. Tick. Can you put a [00:35:55] band on like. Yes, kind of. Anyway, you have to do a certain number to competencies [00:36:00] they call them. Yeah. Not the fact that you’re working in a peripheral unit, like, you know, seeing a hundred [00:36:05] people a day trying to kind of get all of the peripheral stuff going on. Because when you’re a trainee, when you’re an actor, [00:36:10] you’re put out in the sticks. You’re not based at guy’s. The main central hospitals are based [00:36:15] for the internationals because there is a business. Yeah, they’re paying 80 grand a year. So therefore they [00:36:20] get London, they get their, you know, their flats, everything in London. Then we’re [00:36:25] getting paid. So we’re pushed out to the Stokes. So it’s just how it works. And more [00:36:30] so nowadays because for the government to get the employment rate down they’re pushing more people into education. [00:36:35]

Annika Patel: So it’s all politics okay. So turn up to my RCP and they’re like [00:36:40] yeah you are not allowed to sit your morph number one which was this was January. [00:36:45] This was April. I was ready to sit my EML and we had this thing called a conjoint exam, which meant you got your masters in [00:36:50] your more than one exam. So I was like, I may got my life back. Great. Nope. They took [00:36:55] that away from me in one thing, and it’s because I didn’t do one dots and one Cex. That’s all [00:37:00] it was two pieces of paper. And my consultants were they were there sometimes [00:37:05] migraines, sometimes, you know, chasing them to sit in a room and watch you put something in the mouth, you know, it’s impossible. [00:37:10] Do you know what I mean? And the internet’s crap. So I was just like, there’s a lot of things, but [00:37:15] I could have gone back into that room after that decision and cried. So I thought [00:37:20] about it. They sent me out, came back in, I thought, okay, how am I going to react to this? And in life you must [00:37:25] always listen and think and speak always. Instead of being a girl [00:37:30] about things. That’s what I always say. Don’t be a girl about things. Just think. Don’t be.

Rhona Eskander: Reactive, be.

Annika Patel: Proactive, just think. [00:37:35] And I just said, I said, so do I get refund? But I was like, [00:37:40] I’ve had two professors sign me off to sit my mouth. They’ve signed me off because I’m competent. They’ve signed [00:37:45] all the papers. I want my refund for the exams. About three grand or something, you know, [00:37:50] and they were like, what? Like, is that what you’re going to say to us? I was like, well, yeah, because actually I’ve got [00:37:55] nothing to prove. I’ve, I’ve finished everything. I’ve literally popped publishing before everyone else [00:38:00] in the European Journal for my for my master’s. Get off my back. I’m sick of you guys [00:38:05] literally enough. Then I cried. Obviously I went back and I cried, went back to Popkova [00:38:10] and I said, what’s going on? Like the next day, they wouldn’t let me sit it in June because they were trying to make an example of [00:38:15] me. And so the next one would have been September. And then the week after that you give back your training [00:38:20] number. So they made a political issue out of an example. [00:38:25] And I knew that this was a game. I figured it out. I was like, this is not about me anymore. This [00:38:30] is a game, you know, stay.

Rhona Eskander: Surprised you found that out. And I think that, like, making an example of people [00:38:35] is such a detriment to mental health. And I think that the, our [00:38:40] governing bodies and those bodies that protect the public to make [00:38:45] an example is one of the most dangerous things that they can do. And I’ve seen dentists and doctors [00:38:50] become suicidal because, like the GMC or GDC put them through something [00:38:55] to make an example of them. And I just I actually don’t agree with it. I don’t know how you guys feel about [00:39:00] it, but like, I hear it time and time again and you see someone and sure, they’ve not behaved perfectly, [00:39:05] but there is zero room for the fact that you’re dealing with a human being. And I think [00:39:10] this notion that you’re guilty until proven innocent is quite dangerous. It should be the other way [00:39:15] around.

Payman Langroudi: The problem is, we’re in a profession. Yeah. The profession has certain number of [00:39:20] things that make it a profession that there are there are problems with it. Yeah. Like [00:39:25] these. Yeah. But also there’s massive barriers of entry, barriers to entry for [00:39:30] anyone else. It’s not like we’re opening a pizza shop. Tom, Dick or Harry can open a pizza shop across the road from [00:39:35] us. It’s there’s massive barriers to entry to being a dentist and even bigger [00:39:40] barriers to entry to being an orthodontist. So a profession, you know, you’ve been to the GDC, [00:39:45] it looks like a courtroom, but no.

Rhona Eskander: Other country has it right. As in like the like no [00:39:50] other country has it. But my point is, is this is making an example. And I [00:39:55] said it’s a political decision.

Payman Langroudi: It becomes that way because in a courtroom, sometimes people [00:40:00] are made examples of to define what the law is. It’s just the way it is. Sometimes [00:40:05] I get it, I get it picture.

Annika Patel: You have to. You can’t be like, this is about me, and.

Rhona Eskander: I’m [00:40:10] really mad at that.

Annika Patel: But yeah. And, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: So how did it shape you that experience? Were [00:40:15] there benefits that you got from that experience. Like did it harden you. It didn’t.

Annika Patel: Well even more so flipping [00:40:20] break like the sink sink at sea. Um, it didn’t harden me. It made me [00:40:25] think, what the hell is this? I’m definitely not working for the NHS. Screw you. This [00:40:30] is an NHS hospital. I was told that I wasn’t allowed to fly private. I had to wait [00:40:35] six years to get experience for six years in the NHS before I could be a private orthodontist. Screw you. So [00:40:40] I basically did a masters looking at websites and the. This is interesting to me. [00:40:45] Obviously I did a masters on it. Um, looking at GDP to specialist provision of orthodontics in the UK [00:40:50] at that point ten years ago, and that was when six months first came out and it was Invisalign. [00:40:55]

Rhona Eskander: Wasn’t as big then, was it?

Annika Patel: It was just six months ago and it was limited treatment objectives just starting. And there was [00:41:00] all the hate on oh my god, I can’t believe GDPs are doing ortho at that point. Ten years ago it was a 50 over 50 [00:41:05] flip a coin. Whether a GDP or a specialist was doing the work right. [00:41:10] And that’s what got published straight away, because I went through hundreds of websites and looked [00:41:15] at sort of scoring and toolkits and trying to work out what’s going on and what I noticed, and this [00:41:20] is a personality thing, is that. Groups or people that are [00:41:25] good at putting themselves out there, i.e. you example, Rona versus a typical specialist [00:41:30] who’s got literally the most cardboard website. And then at the bottom I’m a specialist [00:41:35] orthodontist, don’t you know, look at all my you know, I’m going to get people through the door. That’s the marketing, [00:41:40] you know, disaster. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, what the hell is that? And I noticed that [00:41:45] straight away. I was just like the all singing, all dancing, bright, vivid people in the world [00:41:50] are the people that are going to get further. And these people that think that we work for them or I’ve got my own [00:41:55] worth, therefore I am God attitude. Hmm. Let’s see what happens, mate. Like [00:42:00] very mature.

Rhona Eskander: Of you to think that back then, because I think GDP is still do get a lot of hate. [00:42:05] And you know, I will ask you the question should GDP providing although. [00:42:10]

Annika Patel: Yes, they should be because guess what? I teach on three diplomas, I work for a lot of different academies, [00:42:15] BP, etc. I’ve been teaching dentists since the system failed me. [00:42:20] Yeah, and I teach dentists because.

Rhona Eskander: Not all dentists [00:42:25] gdp’s.

Annika Patel: Yeah. You know, you know, there’s loads of them loads of courses that we teach on and it’s hands [00:42:30] on and it’s theory and I’m the clinical person because I do so many clinics now the way I teach, [00:42:35] you can ask any of my students because it will be, you know, you’ll see someone somewhere, [00:42:40] um, it’s a certain way that they will understand [00:42:45] the limits of what’s going on. Now, as long as you believe there are good dentists, bad dentists, [00:42:50] good specialists, bad specialists, you can do anything you want. Okay, I’ve seen some of my GP’s [00:42:55] absolute doughnuts and I’m like coming out of it fuming, going, oh my God, I repeat that five [00:43:00] times. What don’t they get? But yet they’re happy. They’ve got, they’ve got the bravado to just stick on [00:43:05] brackets. You’re like. You’re not safe. What are you doing? And it’s for me to pull them [00:43:10] back and be like, no, this is a referral thing. And then I have to bring in complaints and GDC and litigation, [00:43:15] and I have to talk about all of that to make them understand. Or I have people that completely understand [00:43:20] what I’m saying.

Annika Patel: And to the to, to the, you know, the detail that I know another specialist doesn’t care because [00:43:25] the referrals I get from other specialists who don’t care about TMJ, who don’t care about adult ortho, who don’t care about, [00:43:30] you know, bruxism or like, you know, failed restorations on one side because of [00:43:35] an asymmetry or occlusion or anything, I can see what’s happening where I can see that the specialists are getting lazier [00:43:40] and they’re using their own mouth and they’re using. I know it’s bad for me to say that, but there are some that just [00:43:45] are happy within the bubble that they are. I am a specialist, therefore I am. [00:43:50] But then you’ve got the dentists that are multidisciplinary. They can do everything, they understand everything. So if you can convert [00:43:55] them and give them the different hats, you will be winning because every GDP in the country is doing [00:44:00] Invisalign. So therefore they need to be safe. You can’t take it away from them now. You can’t [00:44:05] bitch, you got to work with it.

Rhona Eskander: It’s the same. People like moaning about social media and whether dentists should be [00:44:10] on it. It’s like it’s here and it’s not going away. Tiktok, Facebook, Instagram. It’s here. So either [00:44:15] you know, you go with it or you leave it, you know, and like you can’t hate on the people that put themselves out there. I [00:44:20] do want to also ask Yanni because obviously one thing we talked about. So Raj is the dentist. When did you meet him? [00:44:25] When I was 18. Oh yeah, they they rekindled. But when did you get married?

Annika Patel: Uh, [00:44:30] when I was 32.

Rhona Eskander: And how did you feel as a woman being 32? And how did you feel about motherhood [00:44:35] at that point? When did you have your kids talk us through that?

Annika Patel: So I basically, [00:44:40] if I’m honest, didn’t actually want kids at that point at all.

Rhona Eskander: I decided that [00:44:45] rare.

Annika Patel: Well, within.

Rhona Eskander: Your family, within your community, within your culture, I mean.

Annika Patel: I’m a Patel. [00:44:50] There’s like, you know, another kid. Well, number 62, like, no one cares. You know what I mean? Like, you know, the amount of nieces [00:44:55] and nephews and it’s just the way it is. So I wasn’t I wanted my life back at that point. So [00:45:00] I don’t know what happened. But he wasn’t what happened. But he basically had this conversation [00:45:05] with me after we got married. It’s like, no, honey, don’t you remember you said you wanted three kids? I’m like, I’m pretty sure that’s your ex. That’s definitely [00:45:10] not me. I definitely didn’t want, you know. And then I actually had a miscarriage after four months after. [00:45:15] We got married and I was when I fell pregnant, I was [00:45:20] devastated because I was like, Now I’m pregnant. I know I’ve just got married, and I’ll just start one thing after another with [00:45:25] me. Yeah. And then I was okay about it. I kind of, you know, I was fine. And then [00:45:30] basically Lila came, you know, got pregnant with Lila a few months later again. So, like, actually, I do [00:45:35] want this kid. So it was kind of like, did it change your life? What? Having Lila having a mini me. Somebody [00:45:40] exactly like me to argue with me. My mirror. Yeah. It did change my life because I. [00:45:45] She was a Covid baby, so, um, uh, she’s a Covid baby. So what that means is [00:45:50] that three months. So I had, uh, obviously we’ve talked about I had with my second kid. [00:45:55]

Rhona Eskander: So that’s like what Amy had. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Hyperemesis gravidarum.

Annika Patel: Absolutely. With Lila, I had, [00:46:00] uh, what I thought was HG, but it was actually moving to the toilet. Chain yourself there and just. That’s [00:46:05] it. Your life’s over. For six months, I had that, um. And I was very sick at work. Now, [00:46:10] the main support network I had at work were my nurses, my nurses. Oh my God. Whether they’ve had [00:46:15] kids or not, they could see how sick I was, you know, with patients, because the nature of my job is I cannot [00:46:20] be sick. I’m a robot. I must turn up. Even if it’s powertrain, even [00:46:25] if it’s something the types of patients I treat. I can’t be a human. I can’t be a mum. [00:46:30] I can’t be giving birth even. Yeah. Um, you both know that. You know, I don’t have mat leave for [00:46:35] either of the kids either. So, you know, I’m constantly being pulled back into work. So that does affect you in [00:46:40] a lot of ways. That’s a question.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So. Well, the question [00:46:45] was did it change your life? Yeah, it changed my.

Annika Patel: Life because I went from Covid to actually [00:46:50] what’s what’s the setup here. If a private specialist or a private dentist, private [00:46:55] dentist I guess is a bit easier because you can get someone in to cover bits like exams and bills [00:47:00] and stuff. But what’s the system? Is there someone that can locum for you while you be a [00:47:05] mum, or are you going to be judged for not being a mum because you are at work? What [00:47:10] happens, you know? So Leila was the kind of test situation the three rod I’ve [00:47:15] got a locum in um, not a very good locum. Couldn’t do any lingual. Got a lot of complaints. [00:47:20] Hadn’t seen the patients for three months during lockdown. I ended up being called [00:47:25] on the day I went into labour in the morning to say, actually, can you get back in? And I’m like, kind [00:47:30] of, uh, you know, 40 weeks pregnant, you know, got [00:47:35] went into I went into labour that that evening basically after that phone call. And [00:47:40] then I knew because I knew I had to get back to work because I’d had that phone call in the morning, and I knew [00:47:45] there were a lot that was shit had hit the fan.

Annika Patel: Seriously. You know, I basically [00:47:50] opted against the C-section because of the recovery. So it’s six weeks, isn’t it, for a recovery. And this is [00:47:55] all you know, I’m not an NCT person. I don’t read books. I just go with the flow. It’s just every pregnancy is different. [00:48:00] Everyone is different. Everyone copes differently. So at one point, Leila basically turned around [00:48:05] and were like, you’re going to need to go to theatre and we’re going to have to. To see sections like, you are not [00:48:10] doing that, I need to get back to work. Like literally I was like, do anything you can. But not that. [00:48:15] So she ended up being the forceps delivery and an episiotomy, which is basically C-section the other way around kind of thing, [00:48:20] like another cut. But I went with that. And then I did go back to work two weeks later. So [00:48:25] two weeks later, means couldn’t sit on the saddle chair because of my stitches. It meant that complete [00:48:30] circadian dysfunction, because you’re not sleeping. It means when you’re thinking [00:48:35] about your kids like, are you? How are you going to feed? It was the.

Payman Langroudi: Imperative that meant you had to go back to work because it was [00:48:40] your practice and it was falling apart because the locum wasn’t good enough.

Annika Patel: Yeah, my patients, because. [00:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, I hear your story here. Yeah. And I don’t know if you remember stories of your grandparents [00:48:50] or whatever. Yeah, but back then, a woman would have a child and they [00:48:55] would tell her to go to bed for 40 days.

Rhona Eskander: Really? Yeah.

Annika Patel: It’s a cultural thing. That is, you’re not allowed out the house [00:49:00] for the first month.

Payman Langroudi: So they would stay in hospital for for ten days or something.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s unnatural. [00:49:05] I think it’s unnatural. The way we go. My boss that owns her private practice in Westminster, she went back to [00:49:10] work after a month.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a common story you hear, you know, in this room. I’ve heard this. I’ve [00:49:15] heard this story of commonly. Yeah, but you do have to question the, you know, what is the priority [00:49:20] in life, right? Because, you know, our work is that way inclined.

Annika Patel: They [00:49:25] own us, though. We don’t.

Rhona Eskander: Our patients own.

Annika Patel: Patients own. And it’s yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: The best thing about not being a dentist. [00:49:30] By the way, what are you now? That’s what you feel best. Best thing about not being a dentist. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Payman was originally a practice [00:49:35] dentist. I don’t know if you knew that.

Annika Patel: I kind of got the gist.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: But the best [00:49:40] thing about not being a dentist, not having to turn up, it really is. But you know.

Rhona Eskander: What? The thing [00:49:45] is? I saw even Kyle Stanley, who’s an advocate for mental health, who’s basically cut down his clinical dentistry to [00:49:50] one day a week. Yeah, he wrote a thing. It got thousands of likes and it said we should [00:49:55] be a we should provide a service to our patients, not be servants to [00:50:00] our patients. And the thing is, I think a lot of people feel that we feel like servants. And again, I think it’s the way [00:50:05] that the institution is and the way that we’ve been built. And as I said, like, it’s just ridiculous. [00:50:10] And sometimes, for example, I had a patient, I did nothing [00:50:15] wrong like I did the most beautiful bonding case on her, her before and after was like mental. [00:50:20] And she basically and she was a bit strange in the chair. So I was like, I got a bad hunch. [00:50:25] So we followed her up for like two weeks and after she was like complaining that she didn’t like them, that she thought they were this and that. So [00:50:30] we said come back for an adjustment. It’s just bonding.

Rhona Eskander: She said, no, um, she [00:50:35] didn’t want to come back. She didn’t feel. And then I was like, do you know what? I’m going to call her bluff. Come in. [00:50:40] I’ll remove all the bonding and you can get a refund, because that’s what she wanted. And she refused to do [00:50:45] that. So we booked her in with my associate because then we’re like, okay, fine, go see the associate if you don’t want to see Rhona again. As soon [00:50:50] as she walked through the associates door, she was like, you’re not removing anything. Imagine if you hate something that [00:50:55] much, wouldn’t you be in that chair trying to get it adjusted? Refused to get. So he did like, minor, like polishing. [00:51:00] And then she was like, no, no, no, I still want it. So I called my indemnity and I was like, what do I do at this point? [00:51:05] You know, because I don’t really know, like what to do because I don’t think that she deserves friend. And obviously the immediate thing indemnity [00:51:10] say is guess what, refund. Refund. I’ve done nothing wrong. [00:51:15] Back then.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Rhona Eskander: This was like a few months ago.

Annika Patel: Oh God.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I was just like, do you know [00:51:20] what? I can’t be bothered with the hassle. I can’t also be bothered. And I just said I’ll refund because I didn’t want my [00:51:25] indemnity to go like inflate or whatever. But I’m like and I tried to explain this to my partner [00:51:30] and he was like, but I don’t understand. Like he couldn’t get his head around the fact that we just do this.

Annika Patel: Isn’t [00:51:35] it easier sometimes just to give some money back? Isn’t it just for your own sanity?

Rhona Eskander: It annoys me because [00:51:40] we’ve done the work. I’ve done it well, no.

Annika Patel: I mean, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just part of the business, man. You’re just. [00:51:45]

Annika Patel: You know what? You know, when I talk to my students, I literally when they get upset about complaints and things, I say, [00:51:50] look, you’re making X amount of money in a year. Let’s talk about numbers, okay? Take 5% [00:51:55] of your growth. And that is that is that money is like a tax bill. It’s a separate [00:52:00] thing for a bit like.

Payman Langroudi: Worrying about when you’re on holiday. You’re not making money, you know. No, I never do now. [00:52:05] But people people really stress about that or the cost of this holiday is the cost of the holiday plus my lost earnings. [00:52:10] You know, it’s a similar thing. Take 5% of your earnings and that’s your holiday time you.

Annika Patel: Need to have like, [00:52:15] you know, I’m going on holiday on Sunday and I’m so grateful because every patient I’ve seen in last [00:52:20] week is like, do you know what in the time that you’ve been doing my braces, you haven’t once said, you’re going on holiday, honey. And I’m like. Yes. [00:52:25]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the worst thing about being an orthodontist? [00:52:30] Because the good, the good parts of it seem obvious sort of thing. Yeah, but what is it? Just that the. [00:52:35] I mean, I imagine when I was a dentist, I did a bit of, uh, Invisalign, and I remember [00:52:40] people becoming pickier and pickier and pickier as they got near the end, but I think.

Annika Patel: Is [00:52:45] that it? Yeah. No, I, I mean, you need to be confident with your wire bending. You know, [00:52:50] I work with some specialists that can’t white bend. And I’m like, what the hell are you a specialist for then if you repositioning brackets [00:52:55] because that’s expensive. I think it’s knowing the red flags and the green flags, you know, and personalities. [00:53:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s the worst thing.

Annika Patel: The worst thing? Yeah. Being. That’s the worst thing about ortho. Because everybody that’s coming for [00:53:05] ortho is either got a deadline, getting married, there’s always something. It’s something cosmetic [00:53:10] around it, you know, and then the costings like, you know, the missing teeth, the implant plan, the soft, you know, [00:53:15] soft tissue, hard tissue, all of the grafting plus your ortho plus your cosmetic, being able to [00:53:20] sell big treatment plans and being competent at saying ABC, this is what you need, [00:53:25] and having it all like informed consent at the beginning. Quick quotes, knowing what’s going on. I think [00:53:30] that’s hard. I think it’s hard for a lot of orthodontists to be able to talk money, because [00:53:35] you’re not taught that when we know we’re not talk the talk, we’re not taught the business of dentistry, are we? So I think [00:53:40] it’s being able to say it and say, you know what, I can’t change the shape or colour of your teeth. If you want [00:53:45] anything else, there’s something extra that you need to do. Bit winding, bit of composite, whatever it is, and having [00:53:50] open discussions with patients and not fearing them, they shouldn’t be a hard sell in ortho. You know, in private [00:53:55] it should be. These are your options if you want to take it or leave it. And they always come back to you anyway, you know. [00:54:00] So that’s taken me a long time, though.

Annika Patel: It’s taken me a while to get to that point, because I remember [00:54:05] at the beginning when I first started, it was like, ha ha, all your impressions are getting failed by incognito [00:54:10] because you know you’re not putting the wafer on properly or whatever it was before we had scanners and [00:54:15] I just bullshit. I’d just be like, look, I’m in a man’s world and in private practice just got out of their mouth. I was [00:54:20] told to go to the NHS, and I was like, sod off. And actually, everybody I work with are ten [00:54:25] years older than me, and they’re men and they’ve obviously been around. They know what they’re doing. I clearly don’t know what I’m doing, but [00:54:30] are those people going to support me? And, you know, women that empower each other, they’re the people around you. Men. [00:54:35] And you know, it’s different. You’re different species within the same practice. Sometimes if you’re [00:54:40] both ortho, um, so you don’t get that support sometimes. You know people I find [00:54:45] men, no offence, but they keep their cards really close to their chest. Like, even when they’re teaching, they [00:54:50] give you sort of the ingredients to a cake, but then don’t tell you what type of flower you’re like, yeah, well, [00:54:55] how am I going to know? How am I actually going to do you know what?

Rhona Eskander: It’s really interesting. I never thought about that, but I had one of my [00:55:00] students say, and so obviously I’ve got my doctor in the academy, and one of the things they love is like my nice shadowing [00:55:05] days. And then this girl goes to me, you’re so generous with your knowledge, like you put so much in [00:55:10] the model. So what does that even mean? You know, she was like, but you go on courses and people don’t tell you certain [00:55:15] elements because they’re worried you’re going to like, start to steal it. But I was like, but that’s the whole point. Like, I don’t [00:55:20] care about sharing my knowledge because I’m like, there’s plenty enough to go around, you know what I mean? So I found it really strange. [00:55:25] But I think you saying that, like, confirms that, yeah.

Annika Patel: It’s difficult and it’s [00:55:30] you’re not going to unless you ask someone for help. You’re never going to get it. People can’t in every way [00:55:35] mentally like literally work wise, unless you ask somebody the question we [00:55:40] know no, no question is a stupid question. You have to say it, but you have to say that like, ask me the questions [00:55:45] because it nothing is a stupid question. Just ask me even though you’re like stupid question [00:55:50] like, but.

Rhona Eskander: I actually disagree. I think there’s such a lack of camaraderie, like within the [00:55:55] industry as a whole, like men and women. Um, so for me, like, for [00:56:00] example, I’ve had more hate from like, like female dentists. [00:56:05] Do you know what I mean? Like people that don’t support, like, will say things and like, and even [00:56:10] the male ones as well. There is a lack of camaraderie within the profession. But what do they.

Annika Patel: Not like about you? Have you pinpointed [00:56:15] I don’t know, it’s the.

Rhona Eskander: But I mean, should I even care? Do you know what I mean? Because I have the people that I care [00:56:20] about are the general public. I don’t really care about the dentists as long as I have a team that works well and provides the [00:56:25] best care for my patients. Why should I think about like, getting the approval of other dentists?

Payman Langroudi: It does bother you though. [00:56:30]

Annika Patel: No it does, but I think you need to work on yourself. I feel like you need to work on your own, building [00:56:35] your strength because, you know, I mean, you’ve asked me in the past mental versus physical strength. Are they [00:56:40] correlated? Well, you’re physically very fit, you know, look at you. But is [00:56:45] that a correlation because mentally are you there. No.

Rhona Eskander: And that’s why I continuously. But the other thing I want [00:56:50] to ask you on, you know, as we come towards the end, is what sort of tools have you had in your toolkit [00:56:55] to build up the mental resilience that you have? So we know I know you’re box, but do you want to tell us as well [00:57:00] what you do to help your mental resilience?

Annika Patel: So the biggest problem I have is no sleep. Yeah. Because [00:57:05] I’ve got you know, last night I was mentoring 830 till ten. Then I had obviously I’ve got my baby [00:57:10] and then, you know, my work all day. And then I usually box on a Wednesday from half six to half [00:57:15] seven. So half six to half seven. Get back, bend toward half eight till ten. Then I’m up with my kid. [00:57:20] You know there’s no sleep. So it’s delta waves. So you don’t know if you know what they are. So [00:57:25] if you put in to YouTube Delta waves, they get you into your deep sleep and your non-rapid [00:57:30] eye movement faster. So if you’re only going to have 4 or 5 hours of sleep, it gets you there a lot faster. [00:57:35] So it helps you with basically your circadian dysfunction. You know, things like Parkinson’s [00:57:40] and, you know, all the other stuff that helps schizophrenia and all the stuff that happens from not having enough sleep. So [00:57:45] that’s really important because I can’t change that. That’s my life. I’m not going to have sleep. I’m working and I’ve [00:57:50] got a baby and I’ve got a three year old. That’s not going to change. Yeah. So you take what you have and then you say, well, how [00:57:55] can I change things? I do 5 a.m. club, as you know. Yeah. Um, so I don’t sleep basically [00:58:00] by doing 5 a.m. club I get all my house bits done in the morning, but I also walk to the train station, so [00:58:05] that’s for my serotonin. So it’s a 40 minute walk from my house to the train station to get to [00:58:10] work. And that sorts me out for the morning. Gets my steps in as well. Obviously I box [00:58:15] a box at somewhere called Regan. So Regan is a flight championships. Um, I [00:58:20] fight, I actually spar male spar raising um, for 3 or 4 times a week. [00:58:25] And at the.

Payman Langroudi: Justice.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I know you are busy, but.

Annika Patel: You know, [00:58:30] two.

Rhona Eskander: Babies. Can we just talk.

Payman Langroudi: About that when we say you can’t have it all? What’s had to give your sleep?

Annika Patel: Yeah. [00:58:35] My sleep. I think my sleep. I might do that, though. Sometimes I snap a lot, you know, because when I get migraines [00:58:40] now, quite a lot. So I think where I need to go, I now need to go [00:58:45] to my boxing because I am an angry person. I when I’m punching, I feel [00:58:50] the day that shitty patient, that shitty communist, [00:58:55] that anything that’s stupid email like, you know, the the amount that we’re dealing with [00:59:00] because now everything is so online, you need to get it out. And yeah, I mean, when [00:59:05] I’m sparring with the boys sometimes, you know, when I first started, I was like, you know what, look how small I am. They’re really going [00:59:10] to punch me. And to be fair, I did get a few punches. I’m like, well, I got some punch, you know, that kind of thing. [00:59:15] But as time has gone on, I’ve realised actually some of these boys, they’ve got all the strength but no stamina. [00:59:20] Yeah. So they’ve got no cardio. I can do seven rounds at three minutes. They’ve got the strength and they’re trying [00:59:25] to prove something to me. But why do you need to prove something to me? It’s all about technique and it’s about coordination [00:59:30] and rhythm. And it’s these things that kind of keep you going and floating. And the other thing, you [00:59:35] know. I paint. I’m an oil on canvas type of girl. I write poems [00:59:40] when I’m feeling stressed or the gas has really affected me. Um, so I’ve been writing anything that really triggers [00:59:45] me. You know, when I’m scrolling, I don’t get it out by writing poems. And [00:59:50] a few people do follow my poems, and.

Rhona Eskander: I love that I love.

Annika Patel: Them. So yeah, I do a bit of [00:59:55] that. You know, there’s only so much I can do. You can’t just have all the hobbies in the world.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re in a [01:00:00] nutshell, what can you do with lingual that you can’t do with Invisalign? Why do people opt for lingual [01:00:05] instead of Invisalign?

Annika Patel: Well, apples and bananas. Uh, yeah. Um, so Invisalign is obviously removable. [01:00:10] A lot of patients that come to me don’t want to be sticking something in and out, in and out. I’ve also had [01:00:15] patients that have had aligners that are like, I’ve had fakes, I’ve had aligners. Now can I have something else? [01:00:20] The types of patients compliance. Yeah. So the types of patients I have a client facing, they definitely [01:00:25] don’t want attachments on the front. They definitely don’t want anything visible. They might be getting married so they can wear the lingual [01:00:30] when they get married. Yeah. You know they’re all kind of like that type or they’re [01:00:35] on actors, you know, things like that. So then you have to gauge it and be like, well, actually, [01:00:40] what’s the worst thing that can happen? Fine. You can have a bit of a list. I mean, I use incognito, which is completely customised. So, [01:00:45] you know, it’s pretty comfortable and pretty low profile. So it’s um, it’s great in that way, [01:00:50] but it doesn’t mean I don’t finish with some aligners. Sometimes it doesn’t mean sometimes I don’t whack on a bit of sexual labial [01:00:55] just to kind of get the arch form out or whatever it is, obviously with permission, because once you know, they go [01:01:00] lingual for a reason, um, not enough people know about it. And there is this whole because of the way [01:01:05] dentistry is. Oh, no, lingual. Lingual is crap. It doesn’t work. Or like like [01:01:10] everyone probably says, oh, Annie. Oh Annie does is slate bloody aligners. But it’s not that. It’s just not at all. [01:01:15] Yeah. That’s why like.

Rhona Eskander: Look, I would have loved to do a quick fire round with you as well. Like, we’ve, we’ve, um, [01:01:20] been talking on for so long, I feel like we need a part two, because I definitely wanted to talk to you, as well as about [01:01:25] my own braces and all that kind of thing, but, you know, that’s more of a cult. Yeah, like a like [01:01:30] a mouth breathing question. Yeah. I would have loved to ask you all those questions as well. Um, because [01:01:35] also, you know, um, there are a lot of dentists that I actually really respect that [01:01:40] have opened up something in me regarding these conversations about like the link between [01:01:45] like breathing and mental health and like these appliances. And I think it’s interesting [01:01:50] because as well, like, we’ve got to open our eyes, you know, there’s even now discussions about like hydroxyapatite [01:01:55] replacing fluoride, for example. And like we used to be like, no, it’s only fluoride [01:02:00] or nothing. And you’re a weirdo and a quack if you don’t like fluoride. But now I’m like, we need to challenge things, you [01:02:05] know? So I think it’s an interesting discussion, but something maybe for like a part two. Yeah. Um, so thank [01:02:10] you so much, Annika. It’s been amazing. And you really are such a talented, amazing [01:02:15] woman. Such an inspiration. And thank you for sharing your, like, story and your knowledge. And [01:02:20] yeah, and for those that are listening, please don’t forget to like and subscribe, because the video is the long form that everyone’s [01:02:25] been asking for, are going to be up on my YouTube channel as well as on the main channels and on Dental Leaders. So [01:02:30] thank you.

Annika Patel: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Annika.