Almost fresh from dental school, this week’s guests are already sharing their work to help others learn.

“We’re not teachers,” say Balraj (Bal) Sohal and Kris Vekaria, who set up the Kaizen learning resource to share what they love most.

Kris and Bal let us in on how Kaizen came about and their plans for its future. The pair also talk about failed extractions, the pros and cons of learning on social media, meeting Maradona and more.



“We’re not really experts or trying to teach. We’re just trying to share what we do on a daily basis, our mistakes and cases that go well…we don’t want to come across as teachers. It’s more just about providing free content and sharing the kind of the stuff we enjoy doing.” – Bal Sohal

In This Episode

02.26 – First meeting

06.21 – Kaizen, teaching and sharing

13.11 – Finding an audience and keeping it simple

17.11 – Research

21.22 – Current practice

21.55 – Background stories

27.39 – Learning on social media

28.14 – VT year and COVID

33.20 – Blackbox thinking

54.33 – The future of Kaizen

56.37 – Fantasy dinner parties

01.04.58 – Where to find Kaizen


About Bal Sohal and Kris Vekaria

Balraj Sohal and Kris Vekaria graduated from King’s College in 2019 and quickly went on to set up the Kaizen dental learning resource which shares bite-sized tips on treatment and techniques.


[00:00:00] Yeah, how actually it came about, it was on a flight on a lads holiday, actually to Valencia, and we just had that sort of two and a half hour flight, whatever it was. And that’s when we had the main discussion. We thought, how can we reach the most people in a platform that obviously there’s great Facebook groups, there’s great Instagram pages and stuff, but there’s not much interaction through a page. We thought, how can we just keep it as kind of direct content? No bureaucracy, no other stuff, just content. And the way we figured out would be the best way to do that would be by email mailing list. So we thought if we make a mailing list and just put out content and then eventually build a following, we can just sort of hopefully attract more people to help put together the content and just help as many people as possible, essentially.

[00:00:50] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:07] People often say content is king, and personally, I’ve been looking forward to the moment where the digitally native Dental students and dentists come through. I’ve always thought there’s going to be an avalanche of content when when this particular generation come through and it’s exciting to see and it’s exciting to see if we’ve got some Dental students who’ve got their own podcasts and all of that. And for me, it’s really from a selfish perspective. It’s interesting because I like to know what our younger colleagues are thinking, but also the exchange of ideas. And it’s become very fashionable for older dentists to think that we know it all. But the exchange of ideas often sort of spurs a whole new way of looking at things. My guest today pleased to have both Zohar and Krista Vicario on the show. They’re responsible for something called Kaizen Dental, which we’ll get into. I’ll let them explain what that is, but essentially bite-sized learning that sort of content, both a couple of young dentists who I’ve been super impressed with when I’ve talked to them, and I thought that we should have them on show just just to get some more clarity about where everyone’s at. So great to have you, Chris and Bell.

[00:02:23] Thank you so much, Payman. Thanks for having us on.

[00:02:25] Yeah, thanks, Payman.

[00:02:26] So you guys met at Dental School?

[00:02:29] Yeah. So we’re good mates from probably from Freshers Week, to be honest. So there was five or six of us who are quite close. And yeah, just kind of sort of followed obviously a similar career path since since graduating and stuff like that. So a lot in common.

[00:02:44] Where do you study? You say kings, bacon, kings, OK? And Bell, what was the first time, the first time you saw Chris? What did you think of it? What was it? I know what he’s going to say. He’s going to say, What was it? What was he doing?

[00:02:57] This is a funny one because we still talk about to this day, right? So I was with another friend of mine manager, right? And we were kind of, you know, we knew each other from we kind of, I guess, you know, grew up in the same area. So we kind of knew each other when we went to, I guess, Freshers Week at Kings and we saw Chris there and Chris was like, you know, there’s kind of six foot guy wearing shorts and like, I think it was like September where it wasn’t even hot. And me and Anish, we jokingly said, What’s this clown doing,

[00:03:23] Like, you know, saying

[00:03:25] And. And that was kind of the first impression we had of him. And then as we got to speak to him, we realised that actually he did do a year in Spain because he actually, you know, before he went to kings, he was actually in Valencia studying dentistry and stuff. So it’s funny how that actually that comment just turned out to actually be true. So yeah, it was it was weird how that look, but that was the first time I actually saw Chris. And yeah, after that, we kind of, you know, kind of got on and, you know, it’s crazy to think so many years have passed. But yeah, we’re still really good, mate.

[00:03:53] And have you done, Chris, you’ve done a year in Valencia and then the rest here.

[00:03:56] Yes, I started again. So did a year at Valencia and then reapplied at the beginning of the second. Yet because all of my mates out there, she reapplied and got a place, I thought it’s worth a shot, just reapplied, and then obviously had to start to get a kings. But it was obviously a great experience and I think well worth it.

[00:04:14] So what was the biggest difference between year one and Valencia and Year One and Kings?

[00:04:20] To be honest, it’s quite in terms of the content. It’s all. There’s not much. There’s no dentistry, and I like first year kings or first year of Lance. I think we did a bit of tooth morph and first year after our finals in Kings, which was as close to dentistry as we actually got. But I’ll be honest, I was quite relaxed in and I wasn’t doing much studying. I was just playing. I wasn’t taking seriously either. I needed to come back and I needed to be in England.

[00:04:47] I think it’s a great town for partying. Our partner, our the person who distributes the composites that we distribute is from Valencia.

[00:04:55] Amazing cigar out there.

[00:04:56] Yeah, I’ve been there. I have been there. So tell me this when you met Belle for the first time.

[00:05:04] Well, my sorry. Yeah, I can’t even remember the first I’m sorry about

[00:05:10] The first time. You must have left my mark.

[00:05:14] Do you know what I remember the most about? Bowers in Farsi is big on his bangguo and his getting my shoulders and stuff at night, so

[00:05:22] I made it through the mini smile make over. Of course, when he won a prise to do because he had the best case, I think the best shot judged the case and and he came on to meet his FileMaker. Who was he? Do you remember him as always talented and Dental school as well, like one of those kids?

[00:05:41] Yeah, he to be honest about who he’s been, I’d say it’s kind of cringe. I want to say gifted. He’s he’s he was like your president. Obviously, his work speaks for itself. I think he’s he’s different to most people in that sense, and he is quite skilled. And I think he’s got a lot of attributes that you need to be a really good dentist. So we talk about this not to Bo that sometimes baffled me and other mates talk about how you’ve got the coms, the communication, obviously the clinical skills, you’ve got basically everything you need to be a good dentist.

[00:06:15] I think you guys are making

[00:06:16] Me believe

[00:06:19] I could go on

[00:06:21] To develop as a as a talented clinician. Did you? You know, this idea that you guys came up with doing this, Kaizen, was that the idea that you were going to provide the photos? And Chris, what you get at it or something this?

[00:06:37] Yes, it’s basically that’s a we used to send each other or we still do, but more so before we used that. We’re just starting off, just starting, taking photos and stuff. We’d send each other. I work for feedback or like critiquing, and then it got to the stage where bowels work would just overshadow it. Literally look like a textbook a little better than a textbook and one time actually sat down and say, Look, this is clearer than what we have in our textbooks. You need to just put this out to people. And because he takes photos of every step, which a lot of us have started doing now since seeing his work and people other people on Instagram. But honestly, I just thought the way that the pictures are so clear and so easily laid out, it’s so it just it’s so easy to learn from and it makes sense if he’s got this work to put it out there and obviously help other people like ourselves just starting out, and it could obviously learn from that.

[00:07:30] So which year did you guys quantify now?

[00:07:33] 2018 we are. Yeah, we qualified in 2018 now,

[00:07:36] And you have pandemic to keep you out of things for a long time. So yeah, yeah. So there’s there’s going to be people listening to this, you know, who think, well, you know, if you just qualified in twenty eighteen. What more, why don’t you want to teach anything now, I mean, it’s a bit early, isn’t it, for teaching? What would you say to that?

[00:07:59] That’s a good point. Payman, I think you know what, Chris and I kind of always try and push is that we’re not really, you know, experts or trying to teach. In a sense, we’re kind of just trying to share what we do on a daily basis and kind of our mistakes or some cases that go well, I’m just effectively have like a, you know, a platform where people can kind of learn from, you know, things that we’ve learnt through failures and kind of, you know, things that have gone well and looking at other kind of courses and stuff. So I think teach is a difficult one because we don’t want to come across as we’re teachers. It’s more just about providing free content and effectively just sharing kind of the stuff that we enjoy doing.

[00:08:40] And so you are teachers, I’d say you are teachers. I mean, looking at the content or you certainly will be teachers if you keep on going. But my question is, how come you’re thinking like this? And you know, I’m sure you have people in your year who aren’t thinking like this. I mean, were you think, were you talking about it as you were coming through Dental school or how? Why is it you guys? Why you?

[00:09:06] So, yeah, how actually all came about it was on a flight and a lads holiday to actually to Valencia, funnily enough, and we just had that sort of two and a half hour flight, whatever it was. And that’s when we had the main discussion. We thought, how can we reach the most people in a platform that obviously there’s great Facebook groups, there’s great Instagram pages and stuff, but there’s not much interaction through a page. We thought, how can we just keep it as kind of direct content? No bureaucracy, no no other stuff, just content. And the way we figured out would be the best way to do that would be via email mailing list. So we thought if we make a mailing list and just put out content and then eventually build a following, we can just sort of hopefully attract more people to help put together the content and just help as many people as possible, essentially.

[00:09:55] And I think one of the key things what Chris is kind of, I guess maybe going to mention a minute is about, like both of us, we do enjoy the clinical side of dentistry. So like, you know, when you say about like, why do we take so many photos or like, you know, we don’t just do before and afters of what cases we do and we kind of do step by steps. And a lot of that is kind of just because we actually enjoy doing that element of, I guess, you know, dentistry and and then we find that, yeah, there’s value in that in terms of sharing that information with others because people can actually, in a way, see how you might approach a case without actually being, you know, I guess, in the clinic or in the surgery watching you, but they can still have that same sort of value or benefit if you like.

[00:10:34] Yeah, I see that. I see that. And and I think, you know, for my older colleagues who probably thinking, you know what’s going on here, I think there is this difference. I mean, you’re right, there’s a difference between teaching and and sharing in a way. Yeah. But for me, you know, it’s an interesting thing because I talk to a lot of younger dentists who all want to teach. You know, it’s not it’s much, much more common than that in my day. I had the guys from deciduous on here as well. That’s probably going back. So it’ll be I’ll be at the end of the 40s you called. If you want to look up that episode, evergreen Hassan and syrup from from deciduous, which are reading that busy busy who? And they were saying the same thing. As soon as they came out, they did the PPG dip thing.

[00:11:26] The reason that we both did Chris and Chris was hired on course. Oh, so we sound like we just did just following each other in circles, but we did the same called same uni. Same everything.

[00:11:38] Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Yeah. And they were they were always thinking of doing something around teaching. And it’s just it’s just to me, it’s fascinating that it’s it’s actually a thing, you know, let’s go back. Let’s go back. Go, go. I’m sorry. But what do you say?

[00:11:55] I was going to say now, I think like, you know, it’s interesting what you said about like a lot of people now kind of are thinking about teaching or sharing content compared to maybe, you know, a few years ago, right? And I feel like maybe an element of that is kind of like, you know, typically when we go through Dental School, we’re not as prepped or as experience, you know, maybe people that graduated 10 or so years before us. Well, so in terms of like confidence wise, there’s probably there’s that element where we always feel like we need to do a course once we leave them to fall, a need to learn more, right? And I guess that’s always the case and always true, because, you know, that’s the nature of the game that you always want to further your skill set and whatnot. Yeah. But I feel as though there’s obviously that need now because clinically, you know, we’re graduating with doing a handful of ends or a handful extractions and all that sort of need. But I guess also the other thing is, is the way that people in terms of our sort of, I guess, cohort learnt, we’re very kind of like, you know, digital in terms of like, you know, we want to watch short videos or we want to, you know, I guess, have things like condensed and quite brief rather than going on these, you know, we still do, obviously, like Chris said, we do year long courses and whatnot, but there is that element, whereas two or multiple ways of learning. And I think that’s kind of why there’s a massive interest in sharing content or like you said, you know, teaching and kind of learning in that respect.

[00:13:11] You know, my my thing about about this is that, you know, as long as you produce good quality content, the content will find an audience for itself. And, you know, you do your best to produce good quality content, but when you started doing this, did you have in your head who was kind of your target audience? But was it Dental students as much as dentists?

[00:13:35] To be honest, both always had a really strong following on Instagram, and he’s got really good engagement and obviously his his work and his work speaks for something. People trust his content. And so by having him on board and obviously him making the majority of the content and the pictures, that obviously lends itself well to the majority of that audience following Kaizen, I think with Instagram now, probably more so. There are students that have started to follow Dental Instagram pages and stuff. When I was at uni, I don’t think many of us, my mates would follow Instagram Dental accounts. I thought generally it was kind of when you when you start beating, you start getting into actual clinical dentistry that you start sort of looking for tips and looking for ways to learn outside of conventional routes. And I think that that reflects quite sort of accurately in our audience. It’s probably 80 percent dentist, 20 percent Dental students.

[00:14:32] So give me give me an example of one of the bite sized bits that you might send to the mailing list.

[00:14:38] Yeah. So this is what we’re talking about. So it’s kind of like it’s not it’s not teaching anything super complex. It’s something like like how to how to cure through glycerine as a question that probably gets asked once a month, once a week, I don’t know. But it’s a really simple thing, and it’s not. It’s just something that’s really easy to document, really easy to explain, and you can just write two or three sentences on it, show people how to do it, and then they’ve got that in the bank. And ultimately, the goal would be to make a bunch of these different bite sized tips how to cure through glycerine, what a line angle is, how to move your line angles, things like this so that people have a kind of an encyclopaedia as to kind of the the practical aspects of procedure rather than the comprehensive treatment planning and all of that. That’s the really complex stuff, which we sort of don’t we don’t provide tips for, but it’s just more operative procedures and really simplifying each step.

[00:15:37] Yeah, but what does it look like when it arrives? Is it a one page thing or

[00:15:42] What is it? So the glycerine ones, like three sentences, I believe it’s it’s literally it’s literally just I can read out quickly for anybody, as this is when composites like the final layer is referred to as the oxygen inhibition there. This means oxygen interferes with the polymerisation of the composite, resulting in sticky uncured final layer. There are two main ways to overcome this and remove this final layer what method is to finish and polish the composite restoration? By doing this, you will essentially remove the outermost oxygen inhibition resin layer. However, by doing it this way, the dust from the finishing polishing can be difficult to remove from the restoration. Additionally, the fund raising particles collecting the bars and discs used during the finishing and policy stage rendering them useless. Alternatively, another method is to do the final like here through the glycerine gel. To do this, place the composite as you normally would like during incrementally as normal. Once you’ve placed the final composite layer right, like you’re the restoration, then place some glitter and gel over the cured restoration. And like you again, this is the final cure through glycerine. Now, rinse the glycerine off with water and finish and polish the restoration as normal. The result is a nice surface that’s easier to polish and harder. And then just the pictures that four pictures one pre-op, one prepped one after putting the composite in glycerine on and then the post-op. So it just follows really easily. And it just kind of you can just read it and then most people will understand it.

[00:17:01] And so about you wrote that.

[00:17:03] Well, I own a mixture, so he he took all the lovely pictures and then we both worked on the actual text and referencing it and stuff like that.

[00:17:11] So that was the question I was going to ask you then. What research do you do? It’s a very simple subject, right? The the oxygen division there. But you still got to get it right. Isn’t it because this is the big issue if you if you get it wrong? Loads of people get it wrong.

[00:17:27] That’s it. That’s the danger.

[00:17:29] So, yeah, so what do you do? What’s the due diligence process?

[00:17:33] So a lot of the like the tips or if it’s a simple tip, if it’s something practical, like a lean angle, it’s obviously harder to reference. You can just show with pictures what it is and how to do it. And there’s not much literature that’s that can probably probabilities, but it’s probably difficult to get the literature and condensed into a format that people will understand. So for that practical type stuff, we just sort of show the pictures say this is how we do it. This is what it is. Essentially, that’s it for things like oxygen inhibition. Now we use generally Google Scholar read a few articles and then find the the most relevant excerpts from that and then reference that. And it’s stuff that can’t really. It’s kind of objective, like with oxygen inhibition, it’s objective stuff. That’s that’s it’s just facts, essentially. So it’s quite easy to reference something like that. But the practical stuff is obviously a little bit more difficult.

[00:18:28] Well, yeah. But you know, at the same time, if if you only look in references when you’re talking about something like simple like that, if you only try and look it up on on Google Scholar, you’re not going to get what’s the current thinking? You know, and what I would do if I were you is I would I would have, you know, mentors, essentially, people are really good at this stuff on each subject and just run it by them to to make sure you’re not missing something. You know, it’s it’s an important thing. I’m not saying you’re missing anything.

[00:19:00] No, definitely. Definitely, definitely. I think I think was really well connected with obviously, it works with George and Erin, so anything we put out generally to build a symbol for them.

[00:19:13] Yeah, I feel like, you know what, you said, Payman is true. You know, it’s always good to have like mentors and people that guide you along the way. Yeah, you know, I’m privileged to work with some really, really good need and Dental to kind of help and teach me massive amounts. But I think with like mentoring and kind of me personally, I’ve I remember when I was at uni, I had a mentor essentially kind of, you know, let me kind of shadow him whilst I was a Dental student and took me under his wing. Let me know for him and stuff like that. Whilst, you know, being a student

[00:19:42] Shot about who was that

[00:19:44] Shout about from Burzynski, who was like, you know, very, very talented, well-known dentist, especially amongst kind of the the students now who are probably listening as well because he’s involved in a lot of kind of, you know, extracurricular Dental sci fi stuff and so on. But he really kind of, I guess, changed my trajectory, you know, whilst I was at uni because it was something like, you know, you know, when you’re, you know, you’re trying to find your what you enjoy trying to find your feet and stuff. And when you’re at uni, you’re kind of drowned in all the sort of information you don’t. You can’t really gauge what you like and what you don’t like. So I was really grateful to this day. I’m really grateful that, you know, he gave me that opportunity to come over to the practise and essentially, you know, once every few weeks just literally stand in awe, actually, you know, assist with certain treatments. And it kind of changed the way that I saw things like prepping or only prepping. Or he used to do some period stuff like in terms of prior surgery and prominent. And again, it’s crazy because, you know, a Dental student who especially like now when you think about like confidence, you know, like trying to obviously be confident to take on complex cases or take on things that you’ve not done before, even if it’s like an only prep when you’ve not done it before at uni, there’s that sort of confidence barrier there. So that’s for me change when I was obviously in third year, fourth or fifth year, just going in to watch him. And that’s how my confidence grew. So, you know, you know how you asked earlier about you graduating in 2018, but you know, things are moving quick. That was kind of why it happened or how it happened is that I was already three three years in to Dental going over there once every maybe month or so, you know? So it was a big change for me in terms of what I wanted to do and what I liked and stuff, so I’m massively grateful to him.

[00:21:22] And where are you both working now?

[00:21:24] I’m based on two practises, so ones in Essex and one’s in Wimbledon. So the one in Wimbledon’s with our has been George Cheatham, who you know is known as George. The dentist on Instagram is an insanely talented dentist and all-around great guy. Aaron’s not too bad. You know they’re really good guys.

[00:21:43] That was Bell and Chris. How about you?

[00:21:46] Yeah, I’m just working in near home. So five 10 minutes from home and like a Portland practise. Weston Bromley, South East London.

[00:21:55] Ok, so let’s let’s take it back to your childhood. Normally we start with that, but in your case, I want to avoid that kind of thing, we’ll get back to Class A.. Did you grow up in Bromley, Chris?

[00:22:08] Yeah, in and around Bromley. So I was born in Dartford, so just that’s just a bit further south, east and or east, and then moved to Bromley when I was about nine 10 and then been here since.

[00:22:19] And so you grew up in Bromley, studied in kings and went straight back to Bromley.

[00:22:24] Yeah. Yeah, it’s quite boring, isn’t it? I did one year in, did well, I did one year in Valencia and then one year, of course, of course, high Wickham. So, so and I went boarding school, I went boarding school as well for like four or five years. So I’ve been a bit out of only a couple of times.

[00:22:41] How did dentistry come up? Was it your parents or was it?

[00:22:45] I have a couple of family, friends who are dentists, and they were kind of the ones who after kind of shadowing them and just watching them. When I realised it was, it was a good career that you can kind of pick your hours quite if you’ve got good control of your books hours. And obviously it’s decent money and it’s sort of all around a decent job. I’m not somebody who’s always wanted to do dentistry. I just looked at it practically sort of added everything like it looks. For me, it looked like the career that fit me most suitably and probably would have done something more sort of, I guess, rather a bit more bizarre. Well, what about this, wasn’t it?

[00:23:35] What?

[00:23:36] I would love to do something just left field or just something completely random, but obviously you can’t make money from things that you can. But it’s not as predictable to just do a random, just a random career. If I could turn back the time, I would have just done something, I would have just started a YouTube channel young and just fill an audience that way and done some of that.

[00:23:58] Well, Chris, but you’re not disillusioned already, are you?

[00:24:01] A little bit. A little bit. It’s obviously a really good career. I can’t see myself doing dentistry five days a week until I’m 60. I’m definitely not. I think I want to cut down to ideally maybe two clinical days and find something that can support me three days outside of clinical dentistry. So that would be the goal. I think it’s too labour intensive. It’s a really mentally and physically exhausting job, in my opinion. Dentistry yeah, to be able to do it a couple of days a week recoup and sort of have something else that you can do three days, that would be an ideal situation for me.

[00:24:36] Yeah. Five days a week is a big mistake for everyone, I think. Yeah. You know, there are other combinations, too. Two days I’ve done two days a week. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant because you do need another side hustle. That’s it. What about you, Bill? Where did you grow

[00:24:53] Up in boxing? So you signed it? Uh huh..

[00:24:56] And dentistry was the first time dentistry came on your radar.

[00:25:02] And you know what, I think it’s probably, you know, when it’s that kind of, you know, applying to University Farm, you’re kind of just toying up with what you want to do and what not. So I was kind of always thinking between like medicine and dentistry, as probably most people are when obviously looking at health care profession, right? And I remember I just did like working in the hospital, and I just can’t do this. Like, you know, I was shadowing a doctor on a ward round, and it just was not kind of aligning with what I wanted to do. And I just simply, yeah, you went to practise Dental practise locally, you know, stood in for about a week and kind of liked it. And I was like, Yeah, this doesn’t seem too bad. And then I remember the the principal at the time, he was just like, Yeah, if you want to make a lot of money, do dentistry, and that was it. And I was like, Okay, cool. And it was literally just that. But yeah, I don’t know how much truth there was to that in terms of, you know, now because I guess obviously times have changed. Or, you know what, I’m really, you know, I’m really happy with what I do dentistry. I really enjoy it. You know, I feel like we’re in a very privileged and lucky position to be able to treat patients. And, you know, you can obviously find what you like even within the profession. Like, you know, if it’s not kind of clinical, you can do non-clinical stuff. Even when it’s clinical, you can obviously find your niche in terms of all the surgery, restorative and whatnot. So you’ve always got that sort of variety. So I’m, you know, I’m happy with what I chose and whatnot.

[00:26:16] Yeah, yeah. And Chris, you will be too. I mean, you know, people, people don’t do what you guys have done without a fair bit of energy and, you know, inspiration and perspiration. And that’s what it’s going to take doing whatever aspect of it, you know, look at me, I don’t practise anymore at all. Ten years I stopped practising, but I’m still in dentistry. And you’re right. Well, it’s a very flexible career, and I was very interested in what you said about your mentor because, you know, I had a very similar story from Dipesh about his mentor, Louis McKenzie in Birmingham University, who gave them, I think it was nine 10 days of hands on composite to the students to to to a group of students, to a small group of students. And when you think about that, which dentists, you know, who’s done 10 days of hands on composite, these guys were getting it in Dental school and then I’m very interested in the school of social media, you know, and how much you can do from social media. And a lot of people are really, you know, think it’s ridiculous and you can’t learn from it. But some of the quality of work that I’m seeing from younger dentists like yourself, Bell for me, must have been you must have been learning from other dentists on Facebook and Instagram. Am I right?

[00:27:39] Well, definitely, definitely. I think like, you know, like, you know, George’s account, like Georgia, the dentist, that’s like one that I think everybody would say like these kids go to. Oh, for sure. Like, you know, he breaks it down and he makes it as simple to kind of just digest like, you know, topics that maybe we wouldn’t have experienced or learn about at uni or whatnot. And yeah, massively. I feel like there’s there’s so much value in accounts like that, and there’s so many of them out there. But yeah, I completely agree with you. I feel like you can learn and take information away from these sort of these social media accounts, for sure.

[00:28:14] Tell me about how it felt. I mean, what are you one year in associates now or what is it

[00:28:21] Starting a third year? It makes us that old. Yeah, I’m not old, but I sound like.

[00:28:25] No, but you had you had COVID, you had vet so.

[00:28:28] Yes, a vet. Twenty eighteen to nineteen first year associate. Nineteen to twenty. But then that was disrupted.

[00:28:34] So this is twenty first year kind of.

[00:28:38] Yeah, kind of like a second, I guess if you do the maths, probably about a year starting the second.

[00:28:44] So I remember it was the same sort of story with the deciduous guy. I was talking to them about this. I remember at that point being super disillusioned with my life, not talking about work. I’m talking about life because one minute you’re a student, next, you’re a vet, and the next minute you’re actually a real person. Yeah. And the real, real person without your sort of social support around you that you had with Dental School and straight after I found that really like, I don’t know, man, I was like in that room with my nurse thinking, What is this? What it was all about? Like this? This really and and this group of patients, you know, was the only one and all that to you.

[00:29:32] I can definitely resonate with that completely. I think for me, vet and probably my first associate job, I would agree completely. I think it’s really easy to, especially with social media and seeing people doing all these amazing cases and stuff and then seeing that sort of where you are and where you want to be. I think that is is obviously disillusioning.

[00:29:55] And yeah, why don’t you go tell me, at least at least help the audience to say Yes, BAL is you.

[00:30:01] To definitely, you know, it’s it’s true because like, you know, nothing prepares you for that Payman like, you know, when you’re in Dental school, right, you don’t learn about like how dentistry is going to be outside of Dental school, right? So you’re kind of like in a bubble. You get into vet and you’re like, I’m doing endo on like somebody that I’ve only done it on a block or something on a plastic tooth or something like that. Yeah. So then there’s that kind of bit to it. So then you’re like, Okay, all the stuff that you’re, you know, you’re so unprepared for, you’re actually doing. And then you go to like social media and you see all these other people who might be a similar age or, you know, whatever to you doing this amazing work. And then you thought, Oh crap, you know, I’m doing this and they’re doing that. So there’s that element to it. And yeah, you know, then you then you go and become an associate where, you know, luckily in the practise I work, there’s that degree of mentorship there. But if you’re not, you can end up in a completely like disillusioned or like, you know, position or like a space where you just like, like you said, you’re just questioning like, is this? Is this it?

[00:31:04] How did you get the job with your dentist so quick? How did it happen? Did you know someone who knew someone?

[00:31:10] Yeah. So how did it happen? That was so. Oh yes. So I started posting some of the work that I was doing during vet. Right. So just simple kind of, you know, rubber dam and composites or whatnot. And I remember just kind of, you know, asking George questions here and there, as you know, time went on and whatnot. And then I saw him maybe a year later or six months later or something like that put up. Remember that he’s looking for an associate, the Wimbledon practise and then I, you know, sent him my CV and portfolio whatnot. And then he just had come down for a chat. A couple of months later, I went over to the practise and it was essentially just, you know, like, I guess, speaking about dentistry and it was very, you know, chilled out in terms of that, I guess, interview, if you like. And I just met George, Aaron and they had a look at my work and that was it, really. And then obviously a couple months later, we were actually in Valencia in that time and he messaged me, So yeah, we are. We are. It’d be good if you if you want to kind of, I guess, you know, join the team. And you know, I said it would be a second think. Second, guess it or whatnot, it’s just kind of like, Yeah, it’s good. I’m very fortunate, very lucky. And I was quite surprised. Like you said, I’ve got it quite early because that was a massive learning curve for me, you know, because when you’re in a I guess, just finished vet, right? Like it was January of 2019.

[00:32:22] No, yeah. January of 2020. So I just finished Vanderbilt a couple months into practise, and then I joined them like a few months later. So in March, just before the pandemic, right? And it was like going from like mixed practise where it’s high needs to going to, you know, in practise. So it was like one end of the scale all the way to the other. So that was a big learning curve for me. So like in terms of gauging expectations, working with patients in that respect, because a lot of it comes down to communication like, you know, obviously we post work of our clinical work, but we post photos of our clinical work. Sorry, but these patients, obviously, they just want what they consider a good dentist. Obviously, some degree of it is going to be how good you are clinically and is a pain free and so on. But a lot of it comes down to communication and how they so treat it. And in that sense, so there was a bit of a learning curve for me with that. And you know, again, like I said before, I was very lucky that George and Aaron helped me and took me under their wing and they’ve always made before like, I’ve got that you were mentioning in the practise, which I’m really, really grateful for.

[00:33:20] What do you think about when, if I say to you, what’s been your most difficult case? What would your most difficult patient that you’ve had to, you know, your worst clinical call it a mistake? It doesn’t have to call it a mistake, but we ask everyone this question Can you think of something that you know people can learn from your mistake?

[00:33:42] Um, you know, I’ve got I’ve had loads of experiences or like challenging like situations right where I look back and I’m like, Oh, I should not have done that or I should’ve done it differently or whatnot. Like kind of a couple that stand out. I remember there’s one like, you know, try to take a tooth out, right? Really simple look on the x ray is like a retained root for a three molar, and I’ll get you. I’ll take these last five minutes and it will, you know, it’ll be easy. Walking apart patient wasn’t in any pain or anything like that, so it was just kind of like a finding that we found, you know, instantly finding on the checklist or whatever. And I just remember I was like, You know, when you like your trigger happy like you just kind of think, I’m going to dive in, do it, and that’s fine. It’ll be done. And I didn’t realise until I was halfway through that I kept crumbling. It wasn’t happening. That was enclosed, another crack. And it was like such a small piece that I just couldn’t get to. I just kind of like, step back. And I remember, like, at that point, the patient knew that I kind of, you know, I kind of lost her confidence, if you like. At that point, I knew as I was like, You know what? Sometimes it’s just then it’s like, take two seconds to actually like, you know, basically just assess the x rays and just kind of assess the patient.

[00:34:49] She wasn’t in any pain or anything. She just wanted to out because again, she knew the risks of it being in or whatever. But it was just like simple, basic dentistry that sometimes like you, just you don’t even, you know, when you’re when you’re in the kind of the sort of speed of no associate dentistry in terms of patient after patient, you just get caught up in it. And that was kind of just one thing that I thought, You know what, sometimes I need to just take a breath, you know, and you don’t always have to like, you know, sometimes me and Chris are talking about as recently as well is that you always feel like you have to say yes to patients like patients ask you, Can you do this or can you help with issues like Yes, yes, and I don’t know why, but sometimes it’s okay. So now you know, somebody else can do it better than me. Or I can say this to my colleagues who make sure it’s unsafe or more comfortable for you and so on. And again, that’s something that I think I’m learning now with more experience, and it’s okay to say no, you know?

[00:35:39] Yeah, but what happened? Ok, you struggled with this tooth and then

[00:35:43] I couldn’t get out. I just I said to it now I can’t get this out. She was obviously quite unhappy with that fact because she knew that I was in no pain before I came in and I was like, Yeah, I’m so sorry. Obviously, you know, the situation is that I just physically can’t do it, but I could have probably done it now thinking about it if subject to the surgical and just removed a little bit of bonus stuff. But it got to that point where she lost confidence in me. I’ve kind of lost confidence in myself where I was like, No, you know what? I need to just stop because I should have probably not started. So now at least I can stop before it gets worse. That makes sense. But yeah, you know, and that was kind of a situation where she’s probably had, you know, a week or two weeks of pain because, you know, it’s actually what I referred to on, obviously. Yeah, I referred her on and so on. But it was just that sort of, you know, while she’s waiting for the referral, that one or two weeks or whatever it was, it probably wasn’t the most comfortable for her. So that’s just one example. There’s no you know what? Touch wood, she didn’t. And you know, she had every right to, I guess, isn’t it? But she actually she didn’t. I guess I followed a lot. You know, I obviously called her a day or so later and just touched. Basically, I feel like that’s obviously what I would have wanted if I was in that situation, right?

[00:36:54] Yeah, I mean, full of so important, you know, I don’t know if you guys maybe George probably does this in this practise, but you know you should have someone call three or four patients a day. All the extractions, all the Arctis, anyone who’s anything someone should always call me. Oh, for sure, really sensitive side. But by the way, for me, the nurse should call and say, You know, doctor, so I’ll ask me to see if you’re OK. You know, for me, I should leave. Leave it up to the nurses decide who to call, but she would know she would know the right people. Chris, what about you? What’s what’s your horror story that that’s not really good enough for me, man. I mean, you telling me that’s the best, best story you got. You think you keep thinking

[00:37:35] About that one? I probably had that on a on a least fortnightly basis during vet. I just I couldn’t get teeth out. Luckily, I had one of my using really good friend now, but he was my trainer at the time jabs and I used to call him in. If he was in two days a week, every Thursday and Friday, he would get a message on it. So he set the teeth up because at the time, I’ve been lucky in my last practise that the referral pathway. So my previous practise was NHS as obviously as well as my vet practise in some areas. Obviously, it’s quite difficult to send a referral and get a referral accepted. So the vet practise particularly, I felt pressured to take out a lot of difficulty that either either I leave the patient in pain or I send a referral, which is going to get rejected, or I try my best to take the teeth out. And I knew I had that support system. If anything did go on, if it was difficult, if the tooth broke, Japs would be there to kind of get me out of a bad situation. But that happened on it, honestly, or at least once a month where a tooth would break and I try to take it. I couldn’t get it out and cause upset. He would work his magic and take it out a little bit better extractions. Now, luckily. I know those awful.

[00:38:46] So what’s your story?

[00:38:48] I thought I was going to make most mistakes that you can make I’ve made I’ve puffed and puffed through the floor of the pulp chamber during. I think the biggest thing is like, Bull said, especially earlier on to like during my VTi-L and first year associate, I would always feel pressured to do treat if a patient came in, kicked up a fuss and said they wanted this treatment. I would always feel pressured to do it. So there was one case, for example, where a patient wanted me to add some composite over a veneer where it receded slightly back basically told it wasn’t the best idea. She said she’s had it before. She really wants it to be put back. And I thought, Okay, look, if she had it before, I can explain the risks is obviously likely to fail at some point. Let me just do it. And then I did. I plan to do it. Plan that phantom some cleaning and Aristide beforehand. But it sort of printed out the plan with the cleaning and Aristide first and then the composite afterwards. And then she kind of took the plan away. Cord into reception said that I made it quite clear that you need to do the period before we can do the composite. But she called into reception and said, Look, I just want the composite. I don’t want the cleaning. And then they mistakenly booked her in. So then I turned up. She turned up on the day and we didn’t have the type of composition.

[00:40:15] It was a special type of composite that there was a pink composite essentially to cover up the reception area, and she didn’t want that composite. So we didn’t have that composite in stock on the day, so I couldn’t do it. But she really, really reacted badly to not having the composite in stock. And at that point I told Reception, I don’t I don’t think I’m gonna be able to meet this patient’s expectations. I don’t think we should be Booker. But the reception came in. Patient was obviously kicking off. She was she was really upset and then reception went and sort of booked Trimble on my colleagues without confirming or asking him. He yeah. So, so then he explained the case to him, and he’s then in an awkward situation where he hasn’t seen the patient, but he’s kind of has to see her now. And then he got pressured into doing the treatment, and I think he did a really good job. I think he did a really good job. But the patient ended up just kicking up a fuss and complaining, essentially. So just dealing with that at the moment, which is the biggest kind of stress so far. It’s the first complaint I’ve had and kind of she’s put me in there and a bunch of stuff about the exam appointment, and it’s like a really, really difficult complaint to deal with.

[00:41:25] Complaints are difficult for stop, but I mean, you didn’t do you haven’t done anything on the patient, right? So it’s always a lot easier when you haven’t done anything on the patient. But let’s go to what can we learn from that?

[00:41:37] I think you just after this, I’ve just learnt to say no now. So this was a recent case. And since then I’ve realised that even if a patient wants it, even if patients had it before and they want something that they’ve had it and they just want it put back. I just. If if it’s not the best treatment and you don’t agree with it, just say no.

[00:41:56] Yeah, but there was a failure, right? There was a failure between the fact that they booked him in. But was it her book The Patient In? Yeah, without telling you that the patient was expecting that and then the composite not being available?

[00:42:10] Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:11] There’s a couple of failures there that were not to do with you saying guests in this treatment that yeah, and that needs reviewing, doesn’t it? Definitely. And a lot of times in these situations, you know, we we like you said bell communication ends up being the most important part of it. And if if reception had said, you know what was going to happen and it did happen and then you did your bit, you probably wouldn’t have ended up as a complain.

[00:42:38] That’s it. So you’re ultimately that’s the other thing that is ultimately it comes down to the dentist. So yeah, it’s all you’re a lot of your day to day responsibilities and your day to day your work is is very heavily reliant on the full team, as it should be as it should be. But if anything ever goes wrong, it’s 100 percent on the dentist.

[00:43:00] So, yeah, I mean, look, it is. It is pretty much medically legally, but it’s a lot easier anyway to take responsibility for this sort of thing in your own head. Because, you know, I’ve had situations where I don’t know how a member of staff who I feel like I’m doing everything for this member of staff. And still, you know, he’s not appreciating it and he’s not doing the thing that I want him to do. And if you if you don’t take responsibility for it yourself, then tomorrow your happiness is based on that person, what they’re going to be like. Whereas, you know, it’s my responsibility. If I don’t like the guy, I should fire the guy, you know? You know, I’ve hired the guy. He’s still there. I haven’t fired it. When you take responsibility, I’m talking about your own head, I’m not talking about out there in your own head. Suddenly your day just becomes a lot easier because it’s all it’s only you that you have to worry about and have to worry about other people so much. That’s it. I’ll tell me that ethical extraction can’t be. I mean,

[00:44:04] I lead a very, very unexciting life Payman. That’s that is probably one of the bad ones. You know, I know. Well, recently again, Chris, as we were chatting about this last week and it comes to running on a patient, right? It was low as lower teeth like incisors, which I think are super, super tough because they’re so small and kind of managing the shapes and all that sort of stuff. So we did it and there are so so in terms of kind of what happened right is that, you know, I went through the general sort of information that you have. You got a deadline on the treatment. You want to get this done by and and she was like, Yeah, and matter of fact, I do have a deadline. And she was like, Oh, I need it done by this date. And I normally don’t work Saturdays. But because the only day I can do, I’m booked Monday to Friday. I’ll come in on a Saturday. So it’s kind of, you know, trying to get my way, accommodate everything to make sure it was done for this patient. And we did it. I came in on a day off and everything we sorted out did the composite bonding, and it looked really good. I was actually really happy. Patient was, you know, I wouldn’t say as happy as I was, but she was like, Yeah, and they always are. So anyway, she was like, You know, there’s always that little bit of suspense when you give them

[00:45:13] The Murray like, you know, I’m just going to go. It could go

[00:45:16] Either way anyway. Yeah. So she she saw it. She’s like, Yeah, it looks alright. And I was thinking, I’m a nurse was like, You know, we were like, we were awful. We did a really good job. But she was like, Yeah, no, you know, she’s like, Yeah, it looks. It looks okay. That’s good. So at the end of the appointment, I said, Oh, by the way, good luck for on Saturday. The deadline was Monday. Obviously, the next week. So I was like, Good luck for your your photo shoot stuff. One of the Monday, which was the whole point of us doing this composite bonding by this time, like we really kind of expedited everything right? And she was, oh yeah, by the way, that got cancelled, that got pushed back like three months. And I was like, Oh, okay, cool. And I was like, Oh, fine, whatever. And I remember I changed my plans that day because I was supposed to be in Birmingham or somewhere else, right? I was just outside London, so I was like, Oh God, that’s annoying. Anyway, it’s fine. Obviously, I had a booking for a review a couple of weeks later, and then I realised that I’d cut the lip whilst I was doing the treatment. So the bonding for the lower lip got cut, right? And I obviously didn’t read up on the day and I didn’t have to rub it down. So, you know, I was thinking that the rubber down would have. I didn’t see any of that sort of stuff happen. So I was I was a bit confused. Anyway, it happened, right? And then what happens is, is that obviously see a full review and everything and see that there is still maybe four weeks or five weeks later, the review there is still a bit of a mark on the lip.

[00:46:28] And obviously, at this point, she’s not very happy, as obviously you can understand, right? Happy with the bonding now, but not happy with Mitt. So I’m like, Oh crap. Like, what do I do? Right? And I remember at this point I’d done like a few extra things for in terms of the appointment, like I’d done a three, you know, clean because it was just like we couldn’t get her in for the appointments clause of the deadline under the clean and a free six retainer after the bonding to make sure the people to move and so on. And then obviously, she wanted some additions to the incisal edges at the review appointments. I did those again free of charge. Everything was fine. But again, there’s a cut on the list and I’m really kind of like, you know, you have to deal with these things. Obviously, it’s a spa on our own indemnity. You’ve got to be quite careful because it is facial scarring, right? So you’ve got to deal with this and whatnot anyway. Reviewed her again. But then everything in the room was fine. So you know me, her and my nurse in the room, we discussed it. I apologised, told her it shouldn’t have happened and everything like that. And then I thought, OK, it’s dealt with. I’m going to review again in a couple of weeks to see how the scar seating right now. What happens is she goes to the reception and she says, Oh, is there going to be a compensation for this facial scarring? And I was like, Well, and then obviously, you know that that conversation never happened with me in the room.

[00:47:43] So it was kind of something that she just said to the reception. So again, there was that element of like stress or something. And oh, god, like now, like, I’ve done so many bits in terms of the retainer, the cleans and all this other stuff, but like us now also give our compensation and stuff. So there is that element to it. And thankfully, in the end, again, maybe I don’t know. This is like eight weeks later or something. Things have settled because that’s where the bonding the scar is no longer a concern. We did give us some compensation and kind of resolve the matter, right? But that kind of a nightmare period of like stress because it was stress, it was absolute stress man, because you feel as though like, we, you know, obviously it never should have happened. I said this to, you know, the dentist and the receptionist was like, It’s obviously my error. I’ve cut the lips. I’m out. I don’t know how, but it’s how you still don’t know. I hold my hands up. I thought, I know because I checked the photos of the work in terms of, you know, I’ve had some step by step, but it was as well. And I just never where it was cut. I just never. The rubber dam in the area, so it definitely didn’t happen during that phase of the treatment, and the only time the rubber dam was off was towards the end, which was maybe 10 minutes either. It was then I must have caught it without

[00:48:51] Realising I would a burn. You know, maybe it burn. I’ve seen you on the show. And she said she had a handpiece that was not aligned perfectly and she didn’t realise it, but it was getting hot.

[00:49:04] And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that could be a thing, right? Yeah, like I always suspected, you know, we have these metallic. Yeah, we have these metal cheek retractions in the press. And when your lips dry out after a long period of treatment, right, you know, when you’re pulling them and when you’re doing the lows, it’s all like, I really pull them down to make sure there’s no, you know, you get complete exposure of the lows. And I think that that might have been a reason, but I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m just speculating that, but thankfully touch with things of kind of, I guess, settled. But that phase of when you’ve got that looming over your head, man, it’s not. It’s not good. It’s a nightmare. It’s yeah, it’s not a good place to be in.

[00:49:39] Would you have handled it differently in retrospect?

[00:49:43] Yeah. Not lip. Yeah. You know what? You know what? That’s a good question, because I’m not really reflecting on it. It’s one of those like the back of my mind. So like, now you ask me, that is kind of making me reflect on it. Would I have handled it differently? I think I did all the stuff that maybe, you know, we’re advised to do about owning it in terms of apologising, accepting to it all. That sort of stuff was all done and it was done multiple times, you know? I don’t know what I would have done differently at this moment in time, to be honest. Maybe if you ask me that, you know, with more experience, I probably would say yes, because I’m sure there’s always going to be things like Dental do, right? But yeah, I don’t know, to be honest.

[00:50:21] And there are certain things I who knows. Who knows, right? Whether, you know, maybe, maybe she felt aggrieved and it didn’t matter how charming you were, she was going to, you know, get come for you. It’s possible. But you know, I was in a I was at a restaurant in summer and we were in Cyprus, and they were super strict on the whole vaccine thing. And we had none that we had a 14 year old with us and with 14 year olds, they had to test every three days. They looked at everyone’s thing and then they said, Oh, this 14 year old, he’s two hours late, so he needs another test and none of us can eat. There was a table for 14. No way no one could eat because because, you know, unless you want to leave the guy, leave the 14 or something, which I certainly thought about doing. I wanted to feel it looked like such a nice play anyway. So everyone’s everyone’s getting like, really bit het up, you know, God is 14. He had a test, but it’s just two hours later, you know, just give us a break. And you know, we’re in Cyprus. We were in Switzerland. But, you know, she was being quite strict about it and it thank God he found this piece of paper, whatever. But then she completely handled us. Here she went. It went from angry people to suddenly she went, Oh, where are you guys from? And then suddenly she was. She gave it a thorough compliment out to the women to, oh, the women from there, always so, so beautiful. And and just change the moment from the hell are you talking about to, Oh, let’s go and enjoy ourselves, you know? And I guess it comes that sort of thing comes with experience and it comes with, you know, some, some some people are good at that sort of thing and some people are now, would it would there have been something in a restaurant’s situation? It’s a lot easier to compliment the patient than when you’ve burnt their lip, right?

[00:52:18] Yeah, that’s true. And I think you know what it is Payman is all like when you when you have a complaint, right? You automatically lose like common sense and you just assume the worst like it all goes out the window. Yeah. And I think that’s like a big thing as well. Like, we just see, you know, red and just go completely like panic mode, which again, maybe it’s an experience thing. I’m sure there’s going to be people listening or dentists who aren’t like that. And that’s probably because they’ve got

[00:52:42] Everyone panics, but everyone panics when it happens, and sometimes you’ve got a lot more to lose. I know you feel like you’ve got it all to lose, but people start thinking, What if I, you know, I have to take my kids out of school and these can’t pay my mortgage, can’t pay my mortgage and have to take my kids out of school? You know what I mean for a dentist? You feel like that’s all you know how to do. So it can get super, super stressful, and we all know the stories of how stressful it can get. But what my advice to you both is that there’s going to be more and more complaints. Yeah, there is, you know, Bell, you’re such a brilliant dentist. First of all, people should follow your page. What is it, Dr. Bell?

[00:53:23] Dr. Bell, Sara,

[00:53:24] Thanks very much for the plug. Dr. Dorsey, I know the quality of the work really, really stunning for someone who’s two years out, three years out, whatever you want to call it, really, really stunning work.

[00:53:35] No, I appreciate that, right?

[00:53:36] But but but yeah, there’s loads of stuff you don’t know. You know, there’s loads of stuff you don’t know. You don’t know to quote the famous politician. And this there’s loads of bad luck in in in dentistry, you know, as well as good luck. Yeah, there’s going to be some people who are going to be unhappy and they’re going to complain. You have to think about complaints as part of the job. Yeah, for sure. These days. Particularly you can’t you can’t you can’t get yourself down over it. Easier said than done. They gave me, well, how do you guys feel about where this case education is going to go? Because, you know, the little conversation that I had with you guys was, for me, it seems obvious that, you know, email newsletter isn’t the way it should stay should. It should be more. Video And we were talking about technology. Yeah.

[00:54:33] But you’re going to be our pick up manager Payman.

[00:54:37] Yeah, I need to download TikTok. Actually, even after I forgotten to after our conversation, I need to get on that.

[00:54:43] Yeah, but you’re right. I think you know what we were talking about, obviously was kind of having more interactive, engaging content and video is obviously the key to that, right? And with what we do at the minute, like a big component of it is obviously bite size, you know, very small, digestible tips, right? And the video lends itself so nicely to that because, like we said before, it just kind of, you know, it makes it so much more engaging. So that is definitely on the cards in terms of we’ve got a lot of video content we’ve we’ve already pre-recorded, you know, a few months back and so on. So that is in the pipeline. Yeah, I feel like emailing is good. It kind of allows people to look at it at their own time and so on. And it obviously helps with other things that we do with Kazan. But the video is definitely where it’s going to probably lend itself nicely in the next couple of months.

[00:55:31] But, you know, with the email again, it’s arriving in their inbox with social and all that you’ve got to, you know, pick up loads of followers, right? That’s it. Yeah. Your page bill is aimed at Dental more than it’s aimed at patients, right?

[00:55:46] Yeah, for sure. That’s the payment thing is right. Yeah, you’re completely right because, you know, this was a Baptist and rubber dam and stuff that patients wouldn’t obviously engage with, right? Yeah. But the kind of I guess we’re not. When I started that whole Instagram page was, you know, like selling meat, and it was essentially to kind of move out of the NHS and more into a private setting. And that was kind of an obviously I like I said at the beginning, I enjoyed industry, enjoy doing, you know, taking photos of my work and so on and learning and reflecting. So that was kind of kind of a dual benefit that I wanted to also get a private job, but then also kind of just show my work and reflect on it myself and whatnot. But yeah, I feel as though, you know, potentially with time, maybe it will, or maybe it will change towards being more geared at patients. Yeah, you know, I guess it’s good to have a mixture.

[00:56:37] How about you, Chris? We we were experimenting with this question at Backhed, which was just last week when I was listening to this in three years time. And we were saying, if you can have three people at a dinner party

[00:56:52] That dentists or generally anyone

[00:56:54] Humans.

[00:56:55] Oh, OK, it’s a great question.

[00:56:58] Dead or alive?

[00:56:59] Oh, this is going to come back to that. I need to think about it for like five minutes, probably. I’ll just give you a rubbish answer. But have you got a of the stuff you want?

[00:57:09] And you know what, I’m.

[00:57:15] I’d say. This is one of these when you put on the spot, it’s so hard.

[00:57:20] No, I’d say, you know. You know, David Goggins. Yeah. Yeah, you guys are ahead of him and ready to look and whatnot. I’d probably say him. Yeah, for sure. I think that’s kind of like the never give up.

[00:57:31] You know that

[00:57:32] Guy? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly that. It’s like, you know, inspirational stuff when you kind of hack into that, that sort of mentality, right?

[00:57:39] Right. I gave up, I gave up reading the book halfway through. That’s the funny

[00:57:50] Thing.

[00:57:52] He’s a cool dude, though, because I heard him on Joe Rogan or something.

[00:57:57] Yeah, you bet you. You bet. I hope it doesn’t listen to you, your podcast mate.

[00:58:01] Yeah, I don’t think he will. But, you know, if he did, you internalise that question of once, once you’re completely, completely, you know, spent out, there’s still another 60 percent in you. And yeah, you do that for sure. Like I did that one, you know? Yes, I remember.

[00:58:24] It’s crazy because it is like, you know, my career in mind and obviously that mentality side of things, which, you know, you only think you have so much to give or to kind of handle, right? But like there are obviously layers to it, and I feel like it’s unlocking those layers and stuff. But I feel like that’s, you know, I follow them on Instagram and I always watch his videos and so on. Like, I just feel as though he’s super inspirational.

[00:58:46] Chris, you’ve got to have one is, do you know what it would be? Somebody like Jeff Bezos or somebody who’s just made it to the top, you know, somebody who’s just like, they’ve built an enterprise. And they just got so much knowledge that they can potentially share over a dinner, somebody that is probably quite a boring one. It’s not as exciting as David Goggins.

[00:59:05] So, OK, what’s been Typekit? No, it’s a business. You saying a business leader? Yeah, yeah. Get somebody to pick one that isn’t just the biggest business in the world. Yeah, because all right, we’re all going to have the biggest business in the world, but pick a pick and pick a business that you really admire in one way or the other. Like, for instance, I would have I don’t even know his name. The guy from Red Bull, whoever that is, you know that, dude?

[00:59:29] Well, why would

[00:59:30] You choose him from the marketing branding perspective? It’s just absolute genius company for me. I’m not talking about the product. I mean, I don’t. I have a Red Bull if I’ve had a super late night and I need to wake up the next day. But it’s not about the product, but it’s about the marketing. Once I was doing a lecture and I do not advise this man at midnight, I decided I was going to change the whole structure of the lecture. I was lecturing the next day and I went from midnight to four a.m., changing it all and I was speaking at nine a.m. and so I couldn’t sleep and I must have slept for like one hour, whatever it was. So I got to the lecture and I thought, I’m going to have a Red Bull. So I had had a Red Bull, and then I thought, I have another Red Bull. I had a second Red Bull and oh, my goodness me what I did. I was running so fast I could stop myself every time I started talking because I’d be so interested in. There must have been someone listening today as to who was in the audience that day because it was just obvious something was up, man. Okay. Oh yeah. So the product? Not really, but the brand gone.

[01:00:50] Chris, you know, I really about think about something. I want to say something really boring and save me here.

[01:00:58] So again, someone else?

[01:01:00] Someone else, what business wise you’re asking

[01:01:03] Whatever dinner party.

[01:01:06] And I’d say. You know what, I’m a big football fan, right? So I just kind of say as an idol like, you know, there’s just kind of somebody that you idolised would be Diego Maradona. So obviously, like if I could, I’m actually met Maradona, you know, once, right? And I’ve got I’ve got an Argentina top signed by him, right? It’s funny, actually. So I when I was in, yeah, when I was in my secondary school, I went to there, used to be this tournament. I think it still goes on, but I think they’ve changed the name, right? But at the time, it was the Barclays ATP Masters tournament over at the O2 Arena. Top eight players in the world, right? And I went watch my cousin and they had an advert on the screen, right? And they were like, Oh, we’re looking for this age range of, you know, kids to kind of be ball kids at the tournament. And I was like, I have paid no attention to them. My cousin was like, Look, you should really do this right? And I was like, No, I don’t want to be a ball kid like my mates can take the mix right? Anyway, I actually went to the trial, did it and everything like that, and I managed to get selected and I actually got into doing it for that top eight players in the world. So I met like Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, all these guys. And it was an amazing experience, right? One day, yeah, one day you know how you’ve got like courtside tickets and whatnot. We had like loads of people like, I think Kieran Read was there one day we had Kevin Spacey, one day we had it was the other one. So obviously Maradona was there, right? And when you have six people on the court at any one time, right, in terms of actually doing the ball, the ball kids sort of stuff, right? But you’ve got people that are in the same ball kids, but you’ve got a group of them who sit like in between the court and obviously the crowd.

[01:02:42] So like if the ball goes into the crowd or you retrieve the ball and stuff. So at one point I was like sat right in front of where Maradona was sat with his group, entourage, whatnot, and I turned around. I was like, Oh, my days, that is actually Diego Maradona, right? So I told my cousin, and obviously, you know, O2 Arena is not too far from us. So he was like, All right, he’s probably going to be there for the rest of the week or a couple of days. So he brought an Argentina top the next day and next day I was doing the same thing. I was sat literally where he was sat like just in front of him. So like, there’s this time where there’s like an interchange where you like to have a break and the other kids come on to like, roll on or whatnot. And at that point, I just literally pulled up the Argentina top and I just said to him, Can you sign this? And he was like, No. And then I just begged him and he was like, on it. So you signed it for me. And it was just madness is absolute madness. And obviously after that managed to see him one more time. But that was like surreal. Like, you know, when you actually see somebody that you completely idolise, especially as a big football fan. So that was that was super cool.

[01:03:40] I bet Maradona would be a fun guest at the party as well.

[01:03:43] Yeah, life of the party.

[01:03:46] How much he’s going to eat. But yeah, fungus party. Chris, I’ll give you one more chance, Chris.

[01:03:57] And I’m a leader with a similar story, but, you know, I’ve actually stayed in the same hotel is as messy and the whole of the blasted team in 2008. Yeah, if I could just sit down and communicate and have a conversation with him or Renaldo. It would be amazing. Somebody like that is obviously again just built different and made it to the top. And just obviously so dedicated and and motivated and inspiring lots of people. Well, even somebody like to be honest, somebody like like Federer or something with his branding and everything that he’s achieved outside of tennis is amazing how he’s built a whole brand. And I think he’s made something stupid, like 1.5 billion off the court, something silly like that outside of tennis and just learning how these people can can be at the top of the sport and also on the top of monetising the other aspects of it, the business side of things. It would be really cool to sit down with somebody like that and just find out how their mind works, how the brain works.

[01:04:58] I like that. But finally, we got something it something for me to do the party guys. Our time’s coming to an end. Just tell us the Kaizen Dental coordinates. But if I want to see what guys and Dental is about, what do I do?

[01:05:13] Is it on Instagram? Yeah. Instagram If you go on to the website closing Dental codec and on there you can sign up to the soon to be updated mailing list format. But for now, Instagram is obviously the main format and then soon tick. I think we’ve actually got a tick tock page, but we haven’t put anything out there, so you guys can call Payman to manage that.

[01:05:34] Yeah, yeah. I’ve got a guy managing and managing hours, and I’m still not happy. It’s interesting with Instagram. It’s obvious where Dental Instagram is, where TikTok is not yet obvious exactly what it should be. I find it super exciting because you can define what it is. You know, you can. You can play with different formats and things. So Kaizen Chi Z, I said, N, that’s it. Dental, guys. Have a look at that. It’s been a pleasure to have you. I’m not going to ask the usual Prav famous end of anything. Question puts you on your deathbed. You guys are way too young for that question. The one time I date would ask that question because usually I quite look forward to that question. But you know, the dinner party thing helped me because I know, I know you’re going to be making lots of waves in the future. And a lot of times, you know, it’s nice to when you get to that future. Yeah, I always try and help the ones below you as are. Yeah, you know, we’re professional. We were. In the end, you know, we used to be hairdressers and and what is it that apprentices and all that, but that that’s why they call it practising dentistry because we need to help each other. Isn’t it

[01:06:55] Something absolutely

[01:06:57] Lovely to have you guys on?

[01:06:59] Thanks to Payman,

[01:07:02] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:07:18] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to

[01:07:28] Say and what our

[01:07:29] Guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.


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