[00:00:00] Probably stay at the wrong job for too long. That’s probably one of.

[00:00:04] Them, but one where you weren’t happy with, you’re.

[00:00:06] Just not happy. Yeah, you just, you know, I think you stay sometimes because of patience as well. You know, you got like and also money as well, isn’t it? So if like, especially after COVID and everything and just think, you know what, not you’re not getting what you need from somewhere that you’ve been promised, get like an interview or wherever. And then when it comes down to it, it’s just like backtracking and you just sort you keep waiting and wait and way in, but then it just doesn’t happen. So it’s sometimes just best to cut your losses sometimes and just know your worth as well.

[00:00:45] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:02] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Sarah Ellison onto the podcast. Sarah I first met Sarah as a therapist, dental therapist who I first met on the Smile Academy course with Gillian Kish, who was doing a whole whole year course with them, I think. And then I met again at the Square Mile famous practice in London when we were doing some, I think, enlightened training and mini spa makeover training. And I was particularly impressed with her work, number one. But her enthusiasm number two and and I think this this show, if we’re calling it dental leaders, needs to include different members of the dental team. So I really wanted to talk to a therapist. And I think we will be talking to others other than dentists going forward. Lovely to have you.

[00:01:50] Sarah Oh, thank you for having me.

[00:01:53] It’s a pleasure. So, Sarah, this show is kind of like a life and times kind of show. But I want to start with the question of therapy first, where we are. What’s the state of play with dental therapy? Because I feel like they’re being much more recognised these days.

[00:02:11] They all are. But I think that they’re not regulars enough, to be honest with you, like we do so much more than what practitioners know. We work for a full scope of practice. I mean, for years I was on the NHS doing band tours and just doing the restorations for the dentists and everything within bands within my scope while they concentrate on more complex stuff. So I think we need to be using or utilise a lot more. But yeah, like you say, we are getting recognised more, but I think there’s still like bigger opportunities out there for us. Definitely.

[00:02:45] I feel like in the future that the practice a lot more practices are going to be relying on therapists both in the health service and privately. Do you get that sense?

[00:02:56] Yeah, I think so as well. I mean there’s like in the new regulations are not regulations, but really saying that we are going to be able to be allowed even working for the NHS, work within our full scope of practice, but as in direct access on the NHS, which we aren’t currently allowed to do. So that’s something to look forward to. But I also think as well it depends on the therapist as well, because if someone’s been out of practice for a while, well they didn’t even get the opportunities to do therapy then it can be a bit daunting as well. And you need to work together as a practice and I like where you are at. And look, it is a team based approach. But yeah, I mean, we give us the opportunity and we’ll, we’ll, we’ll shine.

[00:03:35] Do you mean therapists who haven’t been able to do therapy but doing hygiene for years?

[00:03:40] Yeah, a lot of time. It’s really sad to see actually, because I just feel like it’s a little bit, it’s a bit of a waste because we don’t get the opportunity again because we’re not we haven’t been recognised. But like you say, things are changing for the better.

[00:03:53] But do you see that as some sort of like a situation where the dentist knows you’re allowed to do it but isn’t referring the work to you? Yeah. Or literally doesn’t know you’re allowed to do it. I mean, surely. Oh no.

[00:04:05] I think yeah I think yeah it depends. I just think it. Yeah. I suppose sometimes it’s like especially in private settings as well. Dentists probably don’t want to let go of their work for a for one thing as well financially, which it could be also as well. They’re we’re perfectionists at the end of the day aren’t we. So it’s like we’d be like, Oh, they’re going to do a good enough job as I’m going to do for this patient. But also as well, if a privately patient goes see a dentist and then they’re referred to a therapist, they’d be like, But they kind of feel that we’re under skill, not on under scale, but that we’re not going to provide the quality of a dentist. So sometimes that could be a bit of a barrier as well.

[00:04:46] So they come across that with a patient said something.

[00:04:48] Yeah, yeah. Well, not, not a couple of times for me. I mean six years ago it’d be like, oh, but because I was a dental nurse for years as well and I used to, I actually went back to the same practice and they were like, oh, she used to be on reception. So it was, it was. But what we said, please do my teeth now. So I was like, No, I’ve been to uni, but it was like kind of, you know, that situation. So yeah, good. Dentists obviously are qualified in other other things, but I mean in within our training we actually do more restorations than dentists when they first qualify. So we have like more of a well, more of experience then I kind of feel then going into practice because obviously we exit before and then they go on to do pores and stuff like that. So I had the best training because I went to London and I trained with bedside exactly the same training as BDS until I accede. So that’s another thing that a lot people don’t realise the level of education. So I had the same training as a dentist did up to that point.

[00:05:44] So the London hospital.

[00:05:46] Yeah. Royal. London. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:48] Well Whitechapel.

[00:05:49] Yeah.

[00:05:51] So. So.

[00:05:52] Okay.

[00:05:54] I just remembered. I just remembered when when I went for my interview in White Chapel, and I think I’d been living in London for 20 years at that point. I came out of the station and I saw that market and I was like, What the hell is this?

[00:06:09] That’s the extent now.

[00:06:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I grew to love it because a lot of my friends were studying. I didn’t end up there, but a lot of my friends were studying there, and I actually ended up really loving that area.

[00:06:19] Oh, I love it. I love it. I love for the first time.

[00:06:21] Where did you grow up?

[00:06:23] I grew up in Brixton, in East London, and I was born in.

[00:06:26] So, you know the area you need anywhere.

[00:06:28] And I really want you to go there as well. So it’s like a lot of. Yeah, a lot of love for that place.

[00:06:33] So before we move on to your back story, look, I’m surprised that you’re saying dentists don’t realise the level of training and don’t realise the skills and all that we should just for the sake, sake of the ideal for the, for the, for.

[00:06:47] I’m sorry, this is just my opinion. I’m not saying that everybody’s the same.

[00:06:50] But we should, we should go through it. What’s the scope of practice? What can a therapist do?

[00:06:55] So we can do all black classifications so we don’t just do small fillings or baby teeth. We we can do everything on children, obviously paediatrics, we can do Pottawattamie We can’t do pop it to me. We don’t really do them there anyway. Yeah. Crowns thanks to crowns or with whole technique just popping them on or even a little bit of a prep. We can do composite bonding and composite veneers We can’t do. We can do in direct. Sorry. Direct.

[00:07:22] Not in who do direct.

[00:07:24] Yeah. Direct diagnosis as in direct as in in the mouth. We can’t do lab work.

[00:07:31] Because one, two, three, four and five.

[00:07:33] Yeah, yeah. Everything. We can do everything.

[00:07:35] So not that well. Yeah. No, no, I said let’s for completeness.

[00:07:39] Let’s go through it. Yeah, well obviously I do, I do diet caps as well, so I feel like a little bit closer. I’m not going to start. Yeah. Not going to start doing the partial root canal, but it’s been closed a lot of times in East London, let me tell you that. Yeah. So composite amalgams. Yeah.

[00:07:56] What about things? Like what about things like temporary crowns, that sort of thing?

[00:08:01] We can. Yeah, we can put them on. We can put them on with a temporary cement. Yeah. Only temporary cement that we can’t use. We’re not. That might change, I’m not sure. But I mean we can’t, we can’t cement them as in permanent cement, of course, bond or something. So and obviously someone’s like, well, I won’t touch your implants. I’m not that.

[00:08:20] We make temporary crowns as well.

[00:08:23] Do you know what? I don’t know, but I can’t see why not.

[00:08:26] Because in the US they do. Don’t I know.

[00:08:28] I mean that’s the thing is. Yeah. I mean because we can, it’s like it’s really fine because my, my old boss, I mean he’s retired now. I’ve loved him. Yeah, he’s great man. Doctor Graham Dingle And he used to do sic tech. You ever hear a sic tech where you like? It was like fibres and you used to do like.

[00:08:44] You build composites on the.

[00:08:45] Composite to fab. Yeah. Temporary bridge or something. So we inferior. We could do that. So we’re actually making a tool for our composite as a temporary, but we can’t cement permanent crowns. So. Yeah. So everything. And then the only thing we can’t obviously do root canal, any pros or extraction of adulti we can do perio risk for perio.

[00:09:08] And is there, you know, you know, you get ortho therapists and regular therapists is an ortho therapist course completely separate or is it.

[00:09:15] Something you.

[00:09:16] Decide halfway through?

[00:09:17] No, no no. It’s completely different. So all five therapies at the time this do you know what my knowledge on this is a bit not as good as it was because I’ve been there.

[00:09:29] We had a collision.

[00:09:30] I’m sorry. No. So all five are okay? I’m not that up to date with it at the moment, but I know it was. You could be a dental nurse and you could be Warwick Hospital. I think you said it was a year training, and it was literally. They’re also orthodontic specialists. Will give you a treatment plan, and you would just pop the brackets on and do the wires so you’d know about occlusion and stuff, like going into more depth with that, which we do as therapists, but not as much as what dentists would. So it’s completely different. So that’s all they can do. Unless somebody has become a hygiene therapist like myself. Yeah. And then they’ve gone on to do orthodontic therapy, which quite a few people have, and they just do that.

[00:10:08] Then they can do. Okay, so some people do both.

[00:10:10] Yeah, some people do do both. Yeah. A couple of people that one person I know, Benji Plumb, he, he does both. I think he just does ortho therapy now.

[00:10:18] So And you’re the the course is a three year course, right?

[00:10:22] You said when I was at the London it was two about two and a half years.

[00:10:26] Two and a half.

[00:10:27] I think it’s three years now because it’s a degree now. But mine was a diploma.

[00:10:31] And you, you first learn the hygiene piece and then then do the therapy piece, or is it just not fully integrated?

[00:10:37] So it depends on what hospital you go to, like where you where you train. So my I think the train at the London was amazing the way it was because I think the NHS are going to try and start doing that. There’s a couple of things I think going on behind the background in the background, but what they did at the London We train exactly with the dentist, so we had the same period with them. So I was, we were put into groups with them, so we did it all together. So you do perio and cons or whatever you’re doing in them and you just, yeah, you don’t just do one or the other, but then they’d be like the, the, not the X-Men sorry, Essex University, because I used to be clinical educator for them for five years. They used to, they do the hygiene which is about two years and then you can do add on which is therapy for a year, but that’s in practice in placement. So they get they get the other side of it working in practice straight away because that’s how they learn, which is quite another good way to learn, I suppose, because then you’re getting that because in hospital you’re a little bit unless you’re being a dental nurse, I think, or you’ve been in dentistry before, you kind of get a shock when you come out, isn’t it, because you haven’t got 2 hours for an appointment.

[00:11:36] Yeah. So yeah. So it’s like, you know, there’s, there’s all different ways to do it, I suppose. But I just feel the way I had training was, was amazing because I think there’s talk about if you heard about the advanced dental care programme, but they’re now saying so dentists say that don’t end up. So they get to our stage as a therapist and they don’t end up passing the fourth year. I don’t know. They they qualify still as a hydrophobia because I did know a couple of people that didn’t pass dental school, but they did make it past what we did and it’s a shame that they didn’t end up still getting a qualification. So or you can then add on or go forward because I always wanted to be a dentist, but I didn’t have the grade. So it was like.

[00:12:16] What’s what’s best practice? I mean, to stop that patient saying you were the one on reception. How does the dentist approach it when they’re sending a patient to you? Do they do they tell them, Look, that’s my therapist and she’s better at this than I am or something, But how do they do it?

[00:12:30] Well, a couple of my friends are both. So obviously I say my friends because they are. I’ve been working for years and they actually used to say that I actually was better than the Celine’s. So you just say, go in and I’m doing like an MD a day for like a year or so because I was doing all them for him. So it was like Sarah is actually more worked actually better than mine in that field. And also but then I talk to them and say, Look at exactly the same training and this is my work, but then it’s down for them as well. And also you have to try and figure out from them. And sometimes dentists would then go ahead and see it or just say, Well, it’s really tricky because you want to try and keep everybody happy. And also so you do have to be a little bit of a thick skin, don’t you? I kind of feel like I’m like jazz hands as well, isn’t it? It’s like you could be in a bit of a bad day, but you’re like, Oh, you know, I’m ready to go. We’re on stage. But it’s like, you know, this is what I do that, you know, just like, try and reassure them. But then if they really are adamant that they don’t want to, then the dentist sometimes would end up seeing them. But then there would be another person say, look, I actually one of my other friends I worked with, she was like, I don’t do that anymore. I only do like surgical like the implants. Yeah. And so that’s why Sarah’s here with us. So that’s what it is. And then it was fine and they were happy.

[00:13:36] So what about when it goes really subsub gingival or something? I mean, do you electro surge or.

[00:13:43] No, we can’t do that. So what we do, I would just temporise it is in the back. So yes, yes. Yeah. So you can just send back whatever you know, you don’t you feel like you think is going because there is loads. You do get that as well. You do get, you get all the tricky because.

[00:13:57] You don’t really know where it’s going before you start drilling sometimes too.

[00:14:00] You know. I know. Yeah. I’d love to show you some of the stuff I’ve actually done. I mean, you’ll be like, Wow.

[00:14:05] That was. I was very impressed with your work on the on mini spa makeover. And it’s interesting. Yeah. Because when we get quite a lot of therapists, you know, definitely one sometimes two of the group are therapists and they do the best work. Now, let’s maybe it’s because the kind of therapist who chooses to spend the money on a composite course is the kind of therapist who’s really going for it. I. But often their work is the best. But we always say at the beginning as well say no pressure, but producing really great work.

[00:14:38] I just think is because it’s like it’s kind of like the wood industry. You kind of do a bit. You do everything, don’t you? Like a little you know, I’m talking about kind of not so much where you do you choose or you want to become specialists in something, but it’s like, Wow, I’m talking for myself in some way. But we are really passionate about what we do and we are good at it as well. And it’s like, you can tell and it’s like, you know, it’s we did it because we want you to go further. And a lot of people are being a dental nurse before whereby it’s like they look, they, they just loved it and I would work with them. But you know what? The way I felt was that I want to be in that chair. I want that that’s going to be me one day, you know, I’m going to see how I get air and I do what I did. I actually didn’t want to be a therapist in the beginning. I was like, Why would I do that? I’d be a dentist. But then when I did it, I was like, This is why this is me. I actually am really a a therapist at heart, although I do love hygiene, but I am. That’s what I love to do because it’s like you see the difference, don’t you? Straight away, More or less. Kind of.

[00:15:34] So I guess it’s a brilliant point. Yeah, because you’re right. It’s someone who’s already chosen to push themselves forward from, you know, if you’re if you started as a dental nurse to say, I want to be a hygienist and then say, I want actually know I want to be a therapist. So that’s already someone who’s driven to.

[00:15:51] Get to that point because there’s some people that there is. Obviously people don’t. Let’s not forget we do do things because money does play a part as well. But I think sometimes I always say to people that especially nurses or people that I work with, I mean, it ain’t always nurses that go into dental hygiene. I don’t want people thinking that either, because people can just want to be hygienic. But it’s like I say to them, Look, you know what? If you don’t love this job, you’re not going to last 5 minutes because it’s difficult. Yeah, it’s difficult. Like, you know, musculoskeletal problems, you know, the demand of everything, you know, trying to, you know, you know, yourself. But it’s like when you make that different, you see that person happy. Like, that’s how I get my cup to get food from that, if that makes sense. But sad really to say that. But I love yeah, it’s like I just, I love what I do. And also it’s about education as well. So I grew up like from a really low social class, uneducated family, sorry family, but that’s where I come from. So it’s like we didn’t know about that. I think people lost their teeth when they were like in their fifties anyway. And that’s not even, oh, my mum and dad had dentures. I just thought that’s what happened, you know, I was just, I mean, I was like, what? And it’s about, you know, primary socialisation and where you come from. So when I kind of went where I worked and my boss had pushed me further, I was like, actually, I opened up a whole world of like this education that I wasn’t exposed to when I was younger. So yeah, yeah, no, it was amazing.

[00:17:15] So and, and so we’ve been we’ve been having this series of about women in dentistry and, you know, there’s quite a lot of women, dentists, women, dentists sort of saying, oh, women aren’t given the same sort of, you know, they’re not, they’re not put on stage as much and they don’t lecture as many as many men do, and they’re not at the top of organisations and so forth. And I’ve always thought, you know, if the biggest issue with women in dentistry is is the DSPs and some the way I know that is was you have worked in several practices, but on that hygienist group, I don’t know if you’re on it the Facebook one.

[00:17:55] I’m not on Facebook and.

[00:17:58] There’s a I think it’s the hygiene sand therapist group, but I’m on it. And some of the things that happen to hygienist in dental practice.

[00:18:08] What I’m so glad we’re doing this podcast because I’ve been really lucky where I’ve worked actually, and I’ve worked with people that work as a team and I’ve been kind of included, but there has been a couple of occasions like I’ve temp somewhere ever for a long term temp or, or there’s a job left and you do feel a little bit excluded because sometimes as well and things and it’s not about that, it’s about all working together and I do I maybe I’m going to regret saying this, but I do find that there’s still a lot of hierarchy in dentistry. There is, yeah, massively. And that annoys the hell out of me because I just feel like you should treat everybody the same. Like, you know, I don’t get I leadership and there is a level of boundaries and stuff like that. But that is one thing that really gets my guy out, to be honest with you. Like, I just it yeah, it’s just an example.

[00:18:55] Give me an example. Something you’ve come across.

[00:18:58] So. So be like you be. Let me try and think of it. I don’t know how to put it. I’m just a bit worried about what I’m going to say now.

[00:19:08] Just saying.

[00:19:09] It. Yeah, you just. You just like cause you’re not seen as like, a clinician. You’re not even sometimes. Sometimes there’ll be nurses that won’t even talk to you. But then they’ll be like, I always make an effort because I think, you know, they probably don’t talk to me because I probably have people just not talking to them or you just get excluded or you. It’s quite a lonely job as well, because a lot of the time as well, especially now, which I do think is ridiculous. But dental nurses are not given hygiene. It’s not given a nurse. And it’s like, you know, you’re just you’re just constantly battling for what you what you what you should be what you should be given anyway. Like you’re trying to like. I’ll buy my own equipment, I’ve got my own like EMS and only the hand handy one, but I still got my own stuff because I just think. Joe. What? It’s just constantly battling, trying to find or get what you want. I mean, not everybody’s like that, but then they’ll be like they’ll go see a group of people that will go out to lunch and they won’t invite you and stuff like that. And that’s not doing and not saying good morning to you or just being dismissed. And I’m like, that’s just really rude. Like because I’m telling people I’m really like, Oh, good morning. Like you should read it. But then it depends on people having some people having a bad day. Don’t get me wrong, but I just think like you spend most your life at work, don’t you? And it’s like you shouldn’t be like that. And I just don’t know. There’s that Michelangelo quote, isn’t it? It’s. What is it? It’s like people never forget. Like how how they how you made them feel like that works both in good or bad ways, doesn’t it? You always remember if you’ve been, like, singled out or you know, a bit, you know, just just dismiss.

[00:20:41] Look, I think there’s a couple of things that I think that I totally agree with you. There is no doubt there is a level of hierarchy in dental surgeries, and there’s definitely a level of disrespect that I’ve come across in some practices, certainly not all practices, but in some practices for for, by the way, all the DSPs, but somehow the hygiene. I mean, I haven’t worked in a practice where there was a therapist, but some other hygienist has got this sort of in-between position and.

[00:21:07] Often it’s quite difficult.

[00:21:08] Often works in several practices, so they don’t feel like they’re fully part of any team. At the same time, on this question of the nurse for the hygienist or therapists gonna to have to have a nurse. Right. But, but yeah, but for a hygienist, the nurse question. So I think it makes absolute sense to give a nurse to the hygienist, if only for the fact that then the hygienist has time to sell teeth whitening that she.

[00:21:36] Can do that. We can. We can. I mean.

[00:21:39] I think I think there is a caveat. I think there is a caveat because these days it’s really hard to find staff in all industries. You know, there’s a massive shortage of workers. And I can understand how in a dental practice, if you can’t find enough nurses, the nurse for the hygienist is the first one that falls off. Now you could say, why? Why is that? Why there’s the.

[00:22:01] Hygiene, Because there’s a hierarchy of Yeah, yeah, we go to it always. It’s like.

[00:22:06] But it’s also about the amount of money coming in from each chair and stuff.

[00:22:09] I know you say that though, but then some of the ideas are more than a dentist other day and the dentist has got a nurse to do a check up, but they can’t do a check-up on their own. But yet we’ve got to.

[00:22:19] Like, Oh, I get it, I get it.

[00:22:21] So I always tell it. I’m like an indoor crap. Sometimes if I work it on my own, you know, not flying around the room like a lunatic, I need to be an octopus. And it’s like and, and I’m doing I’m trying to take impressions for whitening, and I got no money for the practice and then rest and airflow and I ain’t got nurse. So anyway, we won’t get into that. No.

[00:22:42] What can we shoot though? I think we should. That’s why you’re wrong, right? That’s why you’re on to go through these subjects.

[00:22:46] Oh, so the GDC, if you look at the actual, the actual guidelines of the GDC, we are supposed to have a nurse. And you said. But the only way I think personally or the staff is at the moment, but it’s down to money. We all know that. Yeah, know.

[00:23:01] Well, my point.

[00:23:03] That people make money. I know.

[00:23:05] My point is my point is the hygienist will make more money if she’s got time because the hygienist is. For example, I’m from the world of whitening, Right? In the world of whitening, the hygienist is definitely the most important person in the practice. And if she’s got time, if the hygiene isn’t having to run around cleaning all the instruments and doing all the work, then she’s got time to talk to the patient and talk. If she talks to every patient about the colour of their teeth, I guarantee you that room is going to make way, way more money than that room without a nurse.

[00:23:38] Yeah, it’s about looking at it another way as well. But it’s just I think again, we just so people just get, you kind of get like, what’s it called. Tunnel vision isn’t it. I like your blinkers on and you get what you used to and it change is difficult and even I don’t really like change, but then you need to look at things logically and be like, it would make sense. You know, it’s you know, it does make sense because I’ve worked in a practice that did that and I only left because my boss told.

[00:24:05] Let’s let’s go back to your history. So you said you grew up in the East End. Yeah, I was. Dental nurse. Your first job?

[00:24:14] Yeah, it was actually. I left school, went straight into it. How old are you, really? I did really bad at school, so I didn’t realise how important education was. I didn’t really understand it. Mom and Dad were like, If you just go and get a job after you leave school, We got 16.

[00:24:26] Yeah. And so you’ve always been in dentistry from from the moment you started in the work space.

[00:24:32] For now, more than half my life I’ve been in dentistry, so I’m, I’m 40 next month or January. So I was like, that’s quite scary actually.

[00:24:40] Feels like 24 years. But what I was going to say, what I was going to say was, you know, that’s a level of experience, isn’t it? Experience around the end. History that, you know, if some some some kid who’s been an associate for three years thinks he’s he he knows more than you. You’ve been 24 years in dental practices. Right. You’ve seen you’ve seen a bunch of people do things right and a bunch of people do things wrong.

[00:25:09] And and they used to come to me, the associate. So especially the vet, says to come and ask me x rays and stuff. And that made me laugh because I was like, What do you think that’s. And I was like, Well, yeah, that’s definitely gone through the enamel and I better go in there like, Yeah, you should. Yeah, it was good, right? Cool. Sarah But it just it’s like, it’s not just that though, but I also don’t know everything. And that’s one thing you need to know as well, because a lot of the newer people that come through, they bring something to us as well. So it’s about you’ve got to always be open to everything, you know.

[00:25:38] How many years were you a nurse before you decided to go and get extra education?

[00:25:43] I was a nurse for 11 years, but then I had to reset on my GCSEs and not to do like equivalent A-levels, which was the access to science. So I had to do that and work like night school.

[00:25:55] And what, to get into therapy.

[00:25:57] Yeah.

[00:25:58] So what was it what was, what was the trigger that made you think, I’m going to go for this?

[00:26:04] Really? Yeah. I used to play the receptionist and no, it wasn’t just this, but this was one of the triggers. I see the receptionist at reception. No offence to anyone listening. I would say no judgement, but as I cannot be on a reception desk in my sixties doing this like I need to, I need to do something for myself. And what happened was actually the first trigger was there was a hygienist I used to work with actually my and my boss used to give him a nurse. It was like best practice guy. But I keep mentioning him because I love him. I still yeah, that was like a dad to me, really like mentor. And it was like this lady I worked with, her name was Jenny and she come from similar background to me and she told me what she had to do to get in. But she went to two guys, I think, and it was only 11 months then. And she had a baby when she was younger. And I never even heard these stories before because I just thought university was people that had money. I didn’t think it wasn’t. No, no. Because you don’t know where you come from.

[00:26:58] Don’t know. Really, really, really naive. But it’s so true. I didn’t I just didn’t know nothing. I thought I knew everything, but I didn’t. And she then I was like, So she had to reset all GCSEs and do it. And I was like, So you did it so I can do it. And she was she encouraged me. And then another person on board, actually she’s one of the tutors at the London and she actually worked in my practice years ago before, before I worked there. Same boss again, encourage her to go further and she had the same similar background yet to reset actually. So I was like, actually. So this is doesn’t matter where you come from, but if you want to do something, you can do it does that right? Let’s do it. And then yeah, that was, that was that’s what it was. And it wasn’t just to do with by when I just, I just love, you know, you see the calculus come off. I’m obsessed with, you know, watching Dr. Pimple Popper. I love that as well as you discussing that. I just I’m just obsessed with that or anything with blood or, you know, I. I miss.

[00:27:53] It. I miss it. I haven’t practised for ten years now. That is one thing I miss. Yeah, I actually watch it. I watch videos on on Instagram.

[00:28:00] With.

[00:28:00] Calculus.

[00:28:02] Yeah, Calculus or like tonsil stones. That’s disgusting.

[00:28:04] But I know exactly what you mean.

[00:28:07] Yeah. So I don’t know what that is. I think.

[00:28:09] I know exactly what you.

[00:28:11] Just tell people. I was like, You know what? I would love to do that. And I was like, because I’m not, as you can told you’ve got ADHD. And I’m like, I could not work in the office because I couldn’t sit still long enough. So I need something that’s occupied me and like to get a hyperfocus on. And that’s why I think I’m so good at what I do.

[00:28:28] So when you got to London Hospital and you were in your first few classes, or I expect there was a level of pride, you felt like, you know, I’m doing something for myself and getting in is really getting in is really hard, Right? Right.

[00:28:41] Yeah, really hard. Guys, I found 3000 applicants for, like ten, 12 places. They’re not. Not 3000.

[00:28:48] To 10.

[00:28:48] 12 places, I think. Yeah, I think that’s what they said. Yeah. So.

[00:28:53] So you must have felt really amazing when they told you you’re in, right?

[00:28:56] Oh, yeah. Awful lot. Won the golden ticket from Childhood Chocolate Factory. Really? Yeah. I couldn’t believe it. I was like, Oh, you’re my dad. Everyone’s. Everyone’s really heard this story and that, you know me anyway. But my. Do you know what a rag’n’bone man is? You ever heard? Yeah, that’s what my dad was. He used to go round. We’ve still got horses actually go round on the horse and cart wringing about old scrap metal where now die. And that’s what my dad was. And my dad, he can’t read and write and he goes, Oh, what a fool, we arrogant rag’n’bone man in history. I can’t believe it. He’s just mad. Everyone. Well, well, up we go. Well done, my lads said. But I’ve been in prison. Drug dealers or, you know, people. These are people that I’ve, I can, I can communicate with like people from all walks of life. Yeah. It works a lot because I’ve. I’ve lived it. Yeah. So yeah, I was. Oh my God. I was so proud. Yeah.

[00:29:50] And how do they take how did you take to the. To the the classes themselves and the education. Let the work because it’s quite a full on course.

[00:29:57] Very creative. I mean you know what I’ve because I did a room audit if anybody’s listened to it at once become a hygiene therapist, I would definitely encourage them to do the oral health education certificate before. That helped me so much, especially about like the psychology behaviour change, you know, is about, you know, that’s what I’ve become an oral health educator. I forgot to mention that so long ago I did one nurse on the easement, which was like over 20 years ago. So.

[00:30:26] So which was which you were you then? Which was your two years that you were. No.

[00:30:31] Oh London. London I am. I got in September 2010 by my graduation in 2013, but is two and about two and a half years. I think.

[00:30:41] So. So the work wasn’t daunting or was it that you were so, so proud of yourself? You put your head down.

[00:30:47] Yeah, but I just loved it. I just loved it. I mean, to be honest with you, like, I’m. I’m dyslexic as well, and I didn’t get picked up to a uni, so it was like, not terrible, but it was like I did take I take a long time to, like, write stuff, you know, it just takes me longer. I say it’s probably because I’m, I probably, it’s probably because I’m so disrupted all the time. So it was like that that Yeah that that part would I’ll struggle with it would be like because I find I would find research boring. I shouldn’t really say this because I do want to go back and study dentistry. So yeah, that would be like, um, research and we like, although I’m interested in it, but putting it to paper and doing literature reviews was like, my worst.

[00:31:24] Nightmare is boring. That is boring. Let’s, you know, let’s call it out. If it can be boring, what you’ll find is most researchers are the only ones interested in the research they’re doing.

[00:31:36] Yeah, but you know what? Those You saying that. You know what I’m going to say, though? But it’s like there’s. Have you ever seen that? I think it’s Einstein quote and it’s like it says I’ll go there’s like these animals lined up It’s a really good like your poster and there’s is animals lined up. There’s a monkey I don’t know, a hippopotamus, a giraffe, I don’t know a fish and a monkey. And then it goes a man standing. It goes, Oh, go and climb that tree. And then the monkey goes and climbs it. But that’s because they’re good at that. And a fish wouldn’t be able to climb in order because the educational system needs to change as well. Now, because we’re all different.

[00:32:12] It’s one size fits all, isn’t it?

[00:32:13] Yeah, that’s the problem.

[00:32:15] Yeah, you’re quite right. I mean people learn in different ways and you know, what I’m saying is you don’t have to feel bad about not liking one piece of it, right? Because you know.

[00:32:26] What I hate is.

[00:32:29] The dental world itself, right? I think the biggest skill is people skills.

[00:32:35] Yeah, I do as well. I completely agree, because you can be a really bad dentist. But like if you’ve got the people skills, people like, you.

[00:32:41] Know I didn’t you’re not really bad dentist. Right. But what, what I’m saying is that the hand and eye skills I’d say a number four or five most important thing I’d say people skills and then, and then you know planning planning and you know that that sort of thing as make making the treatment as of course you need a whole lot of skills to do all of that. But people skills number one, right? Number one, I mean I’m sure there’s many dental technicians who’ve got much better hand and eye skills than most dentists. They can make more beautiful crowns or whatever, but being a dentist or being being being someone’s dental therapist, right. You got to have the people skills to put people at ease. What about first time you give an injection?

[00:33:25] Does it bother me? My mum’s diabetic, so I used to do it all the time.

[00:33:28] Oh, really?

[00:33:29] Yeah. That wasn’t a metal.

[00:33:32] And.

[00:33:32] Anything. We used to feel a bit sick about that. The idea that you should make me feel a bit gagging because it’s so deep at the back. Yeah, that used to just make me feel like, want you to throw up because you just went. It’s going to come out the back of the front, but someone’s mouth from every well that used to just make me want to. Yeah. When I used to watch it as a nurse. But you have to got over it though. Yeah, that was fine. I loved uni, actually. I loved.

[00:33:58] It. Did you? Did you?

[00:33:59] I want you to be there. You know, I want you to be there. And that’s.

[00:34:02] Like. And what was it like? I guess you went from school to work without uni. And uni is a lot of fun, Right?

[00:34:11] Did you.

[00:34:12] Did you enjoy it as well?

[00:34:14] Well, being older was probably the one. Well, actually there was quite a lot of us, I would say oldies, but there was actually I was a dental technician. He was in his thirties and children. It was a guy was a solicitor. I end up changes the industry, so there were quite a few of us, which was great because I was like, You know what, you’ve decided to change and it doesn’t matter how old you are. If it is it and it was like you decide, you know, you shouldn’t let people’s like, I don’t know, like these social I don’t know what I’m trying to say, but you shouldn’t let anything stop you. I don’t think if you want to do something you’ve got you’ve got to do it, then go for it.

[00:34:47] So people’s expectations.

[00:34:50] Have a lot. Yeah. I mean I still. Yeah, I still. Yeah, I still went to the pub and yeah, had a good time, but I didn’t really get involved with like the 21 year olds, you know. Well one thing I knew erm or. Yeah. That would be lovely. People like friends and stuff, they’ll probably say they’re friends, but I mean it’s like a different level. I was like I was, I was probably about 28.

[00:35:10] So.

[00:35:12] I mean yeah I a bit like Yeah. A bit older. The old person in the pub you know when you like you got the youngsters there when you’re a young guy and then you go over to the bar, you’ve got a 30 year old still in the pub and you’re like, you’re sad. I sad.

[00:35:28] I know that feeling only too. But, you know, I’m thinking about it. Yeah. I went to university with I think I’d done a two weeks of work as a, like a shop assistant in Oxford Street. And only because my my parents made me come. Like, they. They forced me to do it. Oh, my good. And and I remember I used to spend more money getting there, getting back. I used to take taxi to work, taxi back.

[00:35:58] And taxi.

[00:36:00] And have a steak for lunch. And I honestly used to spend more money every day than I used to make in that job because I hate I didn’t want I didn’t want to do that job. But my parents realised I was a spoilt brat and they said, You are going to work. But what I’m saying is.

[00:36:15] I’d like that, I like that.

[00:36:17] I got to uni and that was the only bit of real world that I’d seen. Apart from that I was just in school, you know. So. So yeah. And so it’s a different person. You’d been working since you were 16, so you don’t, you done 12 years in the workplace by the time you got to uni.

[00:36:35] Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird, but it’s like a kind of it would have been nice to do, like, the traditional way, the normal way. But then I suppose I wouldn’t have had the experience that I had. I definitely wouldn’t have known as much as I did. I don’t think, to be honest with you, the way I was back then, I don’t think I would have been able to deal with the level of education like the education there as well. Only doing the dental nurse in a recent My Jesus and everything that I had to do to get where I was helped me. I wouldn’t well, I would have done better in school, obviously to get into uni, but I don’t think it would. I don’t think it would have been right. I wouldn’t I don’t think I would have done it. It wouldn’t have been my path.

[00:37:08] So it’s okay. Let’s move on. You qualified and tell me about the first few jobs you did. Did you manage to get therapy jobs or did you end up doing hygiene?

[00:37:19] Yeah, I did. I did. I actually before I told you before I qualified that I had cervical cancer, I didn’t want to talk about that.

[00:37:27] I do want to.

[00:37:27] Talk about cos.

[00:37:31] Go on.

[00:37:31] What, You want to talk? Yeah. So when I was in my I was getting confused with the years now, 2011 November I was diagnosed with 1b1 cervical cancer. So that was like, oh I was, I was thinking I was getting in my way now of qualifying. So when that happened I was, I went, I had to have had the first surgery was unsuccessful, so I had to have what’s called a radical colectomy to try and save my fertility and my lymph node removed. But then I went back to you and you after six weeks and then I qualified.

[00:38:09] Six weeks after the surgery.

[00:38:10] Yeah, well, I made the doctor sign me, signed me off because he said to me, they recommend against it. But I said, I want you to go back. So I needed to pass.

[00:38:19] So take me back. Take me back to see what You had some symptoms of bleeding or whatever it was, right?

[00:38:24] Yeah. No, actually, I didn’t have any symptoms at all. Yeah, I had like a little bit of bleeding, a little bit of discharge and stuff. So by. But mainly. But you didn’t.

[00:38:33] Expect it to be cancer, right? So you went to your GP?

[00:38:35] No, no, not at all. And then they come back with dysplasia like precancerous cells, which I was really surprised about because I always, always really good with my smear test. I went every time they asked me to go and I was so obviously changed really rapidly in a short period of time. Every three sorry, every year, every three or every year, I don’t know, three years. And then it come back. I had the cells and I was like, okay, comb, biopsy, and even still then they said to me, Oh, look, it’s probably not that you’re quite young. It’s really, really rare. So two years before that I was having bleeding and they said they found Apollo, but they didn’t want to remove it and it wasn’t cancer. That’s what they told me. And then carried on, carried on and then had had that come back with a dysplasia. So that’s what I’m saying. I didn’t have no symptoms. And it was like if I would have waited another year, I would have probably won’t be. You know, that’s the scary thing about it. Yeah. Because into the cervix.

[00:39:31] So they said dysplasia and and what at that point did they say you’re going to need you need to need operation straight away.

[00:39:38] No, no, no. So what I did was I had like a colonoscopy done. So take a little bit of the cells away and go inside and cut a bit wide biopsy then. But even then they were saying, don’t worry, because obviously they want to reassure you, but sometimes you shouldn’t say that. You know, you don’t think it is. And then they said, actually it is cancer, but it’s early. We think we can get it from a biopsy. So they normally go in and just like cut part of the cervix away and hopefully they can punch it out. Quite a lot of people have it actually actually have kind of I burn the cells away. Don’t if you heard about the burn in. So it’s actually quite common but no one talks about it standard isn’t it. Anyway, so they said to me when, when I went back it was like, like every time, you know, if you go to hospital and there’s like a nurse with the doctor, you know that they’re saying wrong because I have like the million people with them. Yeah, like, I think it sounds like, you know, You see that? Oh, God, here we go. And then they sat there and sat down and they draw pictures and I was like, Look, your cancer’s here.

[00:40:34] We would normally do best practice would be hysterectomy. But because you’re not at children, there’s a pioneering surgery called a radical colectomy we can opt for and in my family all have it because I was panicking. I’ll just call it all away. But if I if I did that made that decision, I wouldn’t have I would have lost my fertility then. So I wouldn’t. And I haven’t got children now anyway. But I want you to, although, you know, you don’t know if you want kids. It’s like someone says to you, your choice is taken away. That’s a different matter, isn’t it? It would be like that was that was like you want it’s got to be your choice. It really did affect me. And then I went back and then they just they we did the biopsy and I’ve been in remission for ten years, so. Well, good. And I’m actually did this I did an advert for the for one of the charities and that should be out so and actually about promoting cervical smear testing because not enough people go for it and it can be treated if it’s caught early. And also they’ve actually saved my fertility as well.

[00:41:29] How did you feel that when they said cancer? Did you did you think, shit, man, like I’m going to die? Like how how did you feel about it?

[00:41:36] I think you know what? I think I went into shock. I think I went into shock. I don’t think I even dealt I still haven’t really dealt with it. I don’t think. Oh, yeah, I just got on with it. My mum and dad were in tears and I was like, always comfort in their mouths that they can treat you, that it was like I can treat, I can treat it like, let’s just don’t worry until like, you can’t sit in upset until we know like them. Let them do what they’ve got to do. And if that, if they didn’t, if that wasn’t successful, not the biopsy, the other one, the radical, the colectomy, then I would have to have chemo and everything like that. But that was from that person who wrote that. Not a lot of people have had that Finding Surgery is quite rare because you have to be very early stage cancer. It has to be one bay or one, so 11b one’s the final. But if if I went up a stage a tiny bit, one one up, which would have been two, then I would have to have a hysterectomy. And I’ve literally just gone back and my tests come back clear again. So I get checked every year by the London I go there.

[00:42:28] So do you think that was some sort of like coping mechanism or are you are you that person who just gets on with things anyway?

[00:42:36] I do know. I don’t know. But you say that it’s really funny because other things. Normally I have last couple years, I think I have been having a little mini breakdowns because I’ve been like getting really up, especially with my mom just dying and my dad’s been diagnosed with cancer now, so he’s got that one up next month. So it just feels like I must have been a really bad person in my past life because I’m just like, Oh, I feel like the shit cloud on top of me that just won’t go away. I mean, you can’t feel like that because you got to be like in life. But, you know, you’re just, you know, I think was I was in uni. I think I was like, you know what I was thinking to myself? I’m not letting this not stopping me. Like, I was like, I’m going back. Life is like it’s like you’re saying else it’s like putting in my way. So maybe the university forced me to focus on something else because I want you to cool off. Well, I had to stay on a couple of extra months to do a couple of modules, obviously, but I’ll still end up doing graduation with my my year and stuff like that. So but I was like it was early enough, you know, And it was I think, well, probably I’ve lost my lip now, but I mean, at the time they did save my fertility, so. Yeah, but it was a coping mechanism. Yeah. And also as well, I don’t really like attention as well. Like my family was all getting upset and I was just like, I feel like I’ve got to protect everybody else. So I don’t know. I’m kind of like a bit, you know, the person who tries to make everyone happy or laughs. I was like, I can’t let them get upset about it. I’m not stop crying. I’m still we’re on on. So maybe it worked.

[00:44:02] Yeah, but, you know, people bang on about mental health a lot these days, right? And and I don’t be amateur psychologist about it, right. Because I don’t I don’t know the answer to these questions, but. And you do need to worry about if you feel like you haven’t dealt with it. I haven’t processed it properly because these things end up being cumulative, you know, like you’re saying.

[00:44:24] I don’t know because it’s.

[00:44:27] Your.

[00:44:27] Mum go.

[00:44:28] Your mum and dad. Yeah. Once you start coping with those two situations and there’s almost this cumulative thing and suddenly you end up, I’m not saying that’s going to happen, but one day you wake up depressed, you don’t know why. Yeah. And it’s, it’s the coping of, of not dealing, not, not processing these things.

[00:44:45] Yeah. No. Yeah. That’s the thing, You have got to process it. But I just feel like I have never had to. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I was doing these courses, but I mean, you’re right. You are right. And I think because I come from a back and not like in my family as well, it’s like everything they didn’t talk about stuff like that as well. And my dad doesn’t even say the word cancer. It won’t say it because he’s family. Come from a time where TB was a bad thing. So someone died of TB because I’m the youngest of four. My dad was the youngest of 11, so it’s like 50 or something. It’s just crazy. There’s like all Victorian time, so it’s like everything’s swept under the carpet, stiff upper lip and all that. But we need to change that, don’t we? So I.

[00:45:25] Think there was, there was some sort of idea that if you talked about it, it was going to happen to you in a strange.

[00:45:29] Way. Oh, well, that’s like, it’s like manifesting, isn’t it?

[00:45:34] Yeah.

[00:45:35] They say there’s been a few things where people that have actually acted in something and then that has happened to them or.

[00:45:41] Yeah, but.

[00:45:44] I don’t know. There’s strange things that happen there.

[00:45:47] So, so, so then you got over this and you did your exams. Was this your finals?

[00:45:53] Yeah.

[00:45:54] Wow. I’m past your finals, right?

[00:45:56] That. Yeah, we’ve married. I say that and I’m like.

[00:46:00] You must. You must be so on top of the world after that.

[00:46:05] Just being that I was, I’ll be shit hot. My. I’m serious. And then you’ve got these people though, and they’ve got a migraine, so you need to sort yourself out. I’ve just gone from, like major cancer surgery to extenuating circumstances. I had a headache last night. No way. And I didn’t put that form in ever. I didn’t put it the extenuating circumstances for me. Neither did.

[00:46:29] You. Did you know? But it’s funny. The agony and ecstasy, isn’t it? The nightmare you’ve been through. And then. Passing your exams after all of that. And it’s almost like we don’t know how happy we can be until very sad in life and life.

[00:46:45] But that’s why I think that’s the way it is, though, and that’s why I’m trying to look at it. Because without the dancing, it wouldn’t be high, as would there. We’ve had the highs. It won’t be the lows. That’s why they raised that, because otherwise it would be black and white, isn’t it? You know, that’s what it’s all about. And that’s trying to learn with that. And I always say. One of my favourite quotes is this too. This too shall pass because it’s like happiness that passes and yeah, like good point, you know, But then sadness will pass as well. But I mean like you say, and you have got you got to be careful of that toxic positivity because I hate that. It’s like, you know, you’ve got this and whatever because sometimes people haven’t got it and like you are allowed to be sad as well, you know. So that’s saying that I’m learning to deal with at the moment. So I’m not trying to be like, you know, I’m not as tough as I make out to be.

[00:47:35] Look, look, I say it comes back to bite you. If you if you if you don’t deal with stuff, you know, that’s that’s what I’ve noticed.

[00:47:41] But 100%, I even say apparently people will hold stuff in for a long time and they’re saying about this stress and causing cancer as well. Stress and a lot of stuff. So, you know, you have got to deal with things.

[00:47:53] So listen, listen, let’s move forward and talk about look, I don’t know. I honestly don’t know what is guided by a film therapy.

[00:48:05] How is the EMA? Oh, it’s just a name that they made up, I think, because I don’t I just I like the machine. I think it’s really good. I love the way it works. I don’t I’m not not an ambassador or anything like that, but I mean, they’ve just that’s their name that EMS have come up with. They’ve that’s their slogan I think. So it’s like. So it means they’re just the blast in a way. The biofilm with the airflow. That’s it. So yeah that’s that’s what I.

[00:48:36] The guided piece.

[00:48:38] Your aim and your guide on the turf I suppose. I don’t know That’s what I’m.

[00:48:44] Is it. Is it.

[00:48:45] Oh you disclose it first. Maybe because you know where you go, you disclose it. I don’t know. I love it though, because I’m not going to knock it. I’m just saying. I don’t know. I don’t because I’m not the person to ask. You need to have somebody that actually know details.

[00:48:58] So so I was talking I actually know a bit more about it than than I let on because I was asking someone at the weekend. So but but I thought first time I heard Guided by a film therapy, I thought it was like a new thing where you guide the the plaque in a particular direction using particular I don’t know. I was thinking like, like Gore-Tex or something like some, some sort of, you know, barrier that you put in place. But, but it’s.

[00:49:24] Guided into the depths of how.

[00:49:27] But it’s more, it’s more then I, I spoke to someone at the weekend about it and, and I figured out it’s more like mini smile make over is like an hour word for composite bonding. Yeah.

[00:49:38] So I think it’s marketing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s quite clever. I mean, because it’s like their thing, isn’t it? It’s so people can say, oh.

[00:49:46] It is clever. It is clever. Right. The fact, the fact that it’s even come on my radar. Right. It’s come on my radar somehow. Yeah. So it’s.

[00:49:53] It’s a great machine I’m telling. I mean I’m just this is someone that’s like I’m not biased or anything because, you know, I just that’s why I purchased it myself. Because I really. I really fancy amazing scaler. I mean, I haven’t I haven’t really used the piezo actually, but I mean, yeah, the of the master. And that’s really because it has like it warms the water up as well. A lot of people have problems with light sensitivity. It’s one of the main problem. So it’s really cold. It’s bloody expensive though. That machine, it works out about 13 grand and all the bells and whistles. Yeah. Yeah. With everything about 13,000. Yeah. We’ve like the extra tips and that you need because it also has like the period tip as well, you know, like which you can go down with another company’s brought out like metal ones which probably better but.

[00:50:43] And it’s okay.

[00:50:44] Yeah. Yeah. And okay Yeah. Was one the.

[00:50:48] Oh.

[00:50:50] Yeah.

[00:50:51] So so all right it’s just it’s just a bit of marketing so but then do you do tell patients that I’m doing guided Python therapy.

[00:50:59] Is it just, just an airflow. The thing was it my machine and the practice like I work there there’s have a hygienist there and they don’t use an airflow but I used to just do it on my patients. So because I just because I was working on my aunt, I have a nurse as well.

[00:51:14] To upsell it. Like, do you charge more for airflow?

[00:51:17] You can do it better for my back, to be honest with you, to use that, rather than bending over with the Polish and Polish kind of in my hair, I find that I mean, I know the normal air flows. Years ago, they could be so messy. We’re not looking at snowmen like the patient being pure white or that.

[00:51:34] And I would. The last place I worked, I was sure that the airflow machine was was bringing on staining like it was scratching the teeth. Was it just the way we were using the wrong size parts?

[00:51:46] Yeah, it’s probably the party. And you’re be careful because it can be abrasive. You might have been using no room. I’ll go. What’s it called?

[00:51:53] When you aluminium oxide.

[00:51:55] Yeah. It blow staining. I probably would. Yeah. So it’s really good because that powder as well, like bust powder you can use up Gingival as well. So it’s really fine and you can use it on the tongue as well. Aha.

[00:52:13] Let’s move on. I know we’ve talked about some dark things already.

[00:52:17] Yeah. No, that’s a bit more happier.

[00:52:19] No, no, but I do want to talk about mistakes. Tell me about mistakes you’ve made.

[00:52:23] Probably staying at the wrong job for too long. That’s probably one of them.

[00:52:29] But one where you weren’t happy with you.

[00:52:30] Just wait. You’re not happy? Yeah, you just. You know, I think you stay sometimes because of patience as well. You know, you’ve got like and also money as well, isn’t it? So if like, especially after COVID and everything and just think, you know what, not you’re not getting what you need from somewhere like you’ve been over promised something like an interview or whatever. And then when it comes down to it, it’s just like backtracking and you just like you keep waiting and wait and waiting, but then it just doesn’t happen. So it’s sometimes just best to cut your losses sometimes and just know your worth as well.

[00:53:06] What about clinical mistakes? I know we don’t like to talk about it, sir, but it’s important to know.

[00:53:14] It is important. Yes, it is.

[00:53:21] Was there a medical history that you missed and. Or did you.

[00:53:28] Know.

[00:53:28] Shorty? Shorty. Surely you removed someone’s crown when you were trying to clean or something or went.

[00:53:33] Yeah.

[00:53:33] No, no. When you drilled.

[00:53:35] Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, actually, it was like there was actually a couple. So one one. I didn’t do it, but it was like patient was pregnant. And, you know, normally you don’t. I always says, don’t even think, change your medical history. But she didn’t want to disclose their pregnancy anyway and then also taking an x ray. And then I was like, Is there anything you need to tell me? And then she was like, I’m pregnant. So, so lucky that I asked. And that’s one thing that I find that a lot of we all don’t ask if someone’s pregnant and because some people don’t want to. And what she said was, I said I said, it’s really important that you tell us because the thing is, you know, you’re not supposed to take when you shouldn’t, because I didn’t want to say anything because I’ve just just not recently lost a baby, so I didn’t want to jinx what it was. Yeah, that’s what I mean. So you’ve got to be really careful with that. Make sure you definitely, definitely ask, because it’s so easy for us to get roped up in our own world. Another one physically as well has been when I’ve gone, I y you always go above and beyond and I give too much anyway, I suppose.

[00:54:31] But I can’t help the character. My character, Oh, that’s who I am. And I really do care about people. I mean, that’s why I’ve got like my own patient list and people come to me, you know what I mean? That’s why I, you know, I’ve got my own little my little thing goes. So yeah. Like, well, no, I wouldn’t I’m not, not like social media patients know who I am. And then they tracked me down or fired me from somewhere. And I’ve got like my regulars, like, find out where I’m working and stuff, and they will wait for me to go back. But I’m not actually working at the moment. So but it’s like sometimes it’s like you go above and beyond sometimes and it’s like one time you could be like you you’ve not. You have still given them that time, but you haven’t been like that again the next time. And it’s like if you’ve had a complaint, I’ve never really have complaints, but then it’s like, because I haven’t, I don’t know, done something that I did before or something because, you know, it’s about sometimes, well, just just try and be don’t go. I don’t know what I’m trying to say. No, I know what you mean.

[00:55:29] I know what you mean because I.

[00:55:31] I would top down with top too much sometimes because sometimes in that upset it upsets me when they’re not when, when that happens. Because I like to give my heart and soul to what I do. And then that time I know you’re not happy now and I even run over or I’ve done something that really I should have charge for and I’ve just done it. And you’re expecting it’s like sometimes it’s never enough. So sometimes. But that’s again, about learning your worth as well. But I like I always want to help people out. That’s probably why I never have no money for my my practice for free. But it’s yeah, about knowing when to like stop stop giving too much as well.

[00:56:07] You know, there’s there’s an art there’s an art to that. Right. I used to have a boss. He was maybe he used to charge maybe four or five times the price of everyone else in that town. And yet he would give everyone a 15% discount. And his patients used to love him for it. The 15% like, Well, I sometimes I would see his patients and I’d say, Oh, well, I’ll extend the 15% discount to you as well. And they’d be over the moon about the 15%. But the price he was charging was literally four times what everyone else was charging. And he’d, he’d figure it out. And I really it really made me learn about that, that question of people valuing what you’re doing, whereas you’ve done the opposite, right. You’ve done something for free and haven’t even told the person that you’ve done it for free. You know.

[00:56:56] That’s that’s where I go wrong sometimes, because maybe I just think, yeah, but you need to inform them, like with me, really, I should say to them, I’m doing airflow for you, like, but not everyone would do this for you. And normally they charge people charge so much more. But I just I like using it and it’s what I do for everyone anyway. And it’s bad for my back when I’m practising. But really I need to look at it. You know what I’m thinking. Yeah. So it’s things like that really. But it’s a learning curve, isn’t it? You just need to learn and also as well, like I’ll be a little bit uncomfortable sometimes with the money side of stuff as well, because I come from an NHS background, a lot of it before. So that was like I’ve learnt a lot working in private practice and especially not working in Square. My like the guys I love, they’re, they taught me a lot and had to, you know, well value yourself isn’t it as well because you steal your time like I’ll be, I’ll see somebody and think oh I haven’t done as much as I did on the last person. I want to charge them less. So what is wrong with that? I still my time, isn’t it? You know, I just. I don’t know.

[00:57:56] Yeah, it’s very common. It’s common to to not be comfortable talking about money and all that. It’s a common thing, but it’s a massive error. Yeah. I mean as soon as you start dealing with some lawyers and things you realise, you know, they charge you, they charge you to read a letter, to read a letter, but then now you’re not working because now you’re focusing on products.

[00:58:22] Yes, I am. I am.

[00:58:24] But I’m going to I’m going to. You just say what you want to say about these.

[00:58:30] No, I’m going to go for it. So I’m working on my own dental product at the moment and it’s not launched yet. Planning to launch in the next three months or so. The brand is called Bare as in a bare bare like a raw bear rather than bear skin. I’ll just put that in there. The whole idea about that is like base band medicine, and it’s about back to nature bearings for strength and healing. And also my mum used to call me Baby Bear and I lost this February, so kind of a thing for her as well. But also the products actually going to contain CBD oil. So as for the benefits that it will have, I don’t want to go into too much detail because it’s still in under works at the moment, so I don’t really want to give too much away. Yeah, watch this space. So it’s going to be a bear. It’s called Bear Oral Care and it’s going to contain CBD for like health wellbeing.

[00:59:27] What are the, what are the health benefits of CBD?

[00:59:30] It’s got anti-inflammatory properties. So recently it’s been licensed as a medicine for, I think epilepsy and arthritis, but there’s obviously still a massive grey area in the UK around it. So if you sell CBD, it has to go under normal foods as a real because at the moment I can’t say it’s a medicine because of all the clinical trials and things like that, but I’m going on theory based as it’s the same as if you go and buy CBD oil in a shop, it will say it’s a normal food or supplement. It won’t tell you and say to you, Oh, this is going to make you feel better. It’s going to, but it will contain other ingredients and it’s going to be bigger and eco friendly and it’s made in the UK as well. So that’s what I want to try and bring home, try and cut down the waste and everything. We have got, much as we have in the dental world, but also to consumers as well. So yeah, I’m just.

[01:00:25] And you know how people confuse CBD with THC and you know the.

[01:00:32] Psychoactive.

[01:00:33] Yeah. So, so just, just just outline what is the difference.

[01:00:38] So CBD is actually an extract from hemp cannabis and it can contain THC. That’s the psychoactive ingredient which obviously gets people high. If people.

[01:00:48] See other bit of it, not the bit that.

[01:00:50] Yeah, yeah, it’s not, it’s been extracted from it so but will it. As long as it contains less than 0.2% THC. Yeah. You’re allowed to sell it legally in the UK with licensing and things like that, which is still a bit of a barrier, but I do believe it’s going to become legalised soon anyway, fully with the UK and the US and everything. But no one is quite controversial and people are a little bit weary of it. But the products I’m going for as well, it’s actually to do with because I’m making an oil polymer product as well for dental oil and I’m hoping that we’re not hoping if they vary that CBD oil will actually go into the body systemically like sublingual under the tongue and through the gingival sulcus mucosa because you have the oil pull for 15 to 20 minutes. Yeah. Which has been around for years and years but. No one’s marketed it yet apart from me.

[01:01:48] So, you know, quite a big quite a big step. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, listening to your story, I’m I’m actually very proud of you for wanting to do this. Right.

[01:02:00] Oh.

[01:02:00] Thank you. Because it is a it’s a big thing to do. And it’s it’s thinking outside the box and taking a risk and, you know, all all of those things. But what I would say to you is, you know, take advice from lots of people and make small steps and, you know, figure figure out the social media side.

[01:02:23] Of that side of things. You can probably see my Instagram with about five pictures on there.

[01:02:26] You’ve got to you’ve got to and and and, you know, be careful of being the first.

[01:02:32] Yeah, I know. That’s what I’m worried about.

[01:02:34] We think a lot of times that being the first is is, you know, there’s that classic first mover advantage isn’t it, that people talk about. Yeah.

[01:02:41] But it’s like we say Facebook wasn’t the first was it, you know.

[01:02:45] When business took that first mover advantage. They’re talking about the first winner advantage. Right. Yeah. That said, the first winner in a category like let’s say let’s say in the energy drink category, Red Bull. Yeah. There might have been 12 other products before Red Bull, but Red Bull’s considered the first mover advantage. It’s the first product that made it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interestingly, Red was one of my favourite companies in the world, right? Because of just their marketing. So beautiful.

[01:03:15] Yeah. The fly, the wings, isn’t it?

[01:03:16] Everything about their marketing just, I. I’m just totally seduced by that company’s marketing. But then.

[01:03:22] Brilliant.

[01:03:22] But then, now, now recently there’s a drink called Trip that you’ve probably seen.

[01:03:29] Oh that’s got CBD.

[01:03:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s a, well there’s, there’s a whole lot of drinks that are CBD drinks that I think they have a name.

[01:03:36] So now actually Oh yeah.

[01:03:38] It’s on fire and it’s what, what’s amazing about they kind of copying Red Bull but it’s like equal and opposite. Right. They’re saying Red Bull gives you healthy.

[01:03:48] Yeah.

[01:03:48] No Red Bull gives you wings. This is kind of like a slow you down drink. You know.

[01:03:52] Like chill out.

[01:03:53] Relax with it. It’s got a name, The category’s got a name. I’m not sure exactly what it’s like a down or it’s not down. It’s like it’s got another name, but it’s the same idea of.

[01:04:01] I know what you mean. Yeah, it’s just a flip side of it.

[01:04:03] Yeah. And also in the small cans, I mean always used to get me about Red Bull was to take on Coca Cola, you know, like back in my day, that was like, it’d be like taking on the US government or something. Yeah. So you take on coke. There you go. They just held up, just held up a Diet Coke. They take on a drink like that with, with the can. That’s one third the size and four.

[01:04:26] Times the price.

[01:04:27] And win and win. They won right. Oh well yeah, they didn’t, they didn’t win against Coca Cola but I’m saying they, they won in the world. Right.

[01:04:34] The market. Yeah. Well the one of leukocyte as well didn’t they. Yeah.

[01:04:37] Yeah. For sure. So you know I wish you a lot of luck with that and it’s an exciting that the agony and ecstasy of of of launching a product would be very similar to the agony and ecstasy of getting into dental school and therapy and, and all this stuff you went through before that. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you on. So I’m going to end it with the same two questions we always ask.

[01:05:06] Yeah, go for it.

[01:05:07] Fancy dinner party, three guests, dead or alive? Who would you have?

[01:05:14] This was really difficult, but I’d love at ten. But I’m going to say Elon Musk definitely is that guy. Yeah, I just think it’s quite a bit crazy. Like, he just. He just. He just don’t care. And he uses eccentric and I just think, yeah, just everything about the whole persona, like the guy is just great. I think he’s a fantastic, good sense of humour. Sadhguru Another one. Have you heard of Psych Guru who’s a Yogi?

[01:05:43] Oh, I think I do know that we’ve worked with the beard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:05:48] I know him. I think he’s amazing like this.

[01:05:50] Yeah, he’s.

[01:05:51] Good. He’s making me calm down a bit rather than be like, Oh.

[01:05:56] I get. I get him on Tik tok a lot for some reason.

[01:05:59] Oh, really. Yeah. Yeah, I’m on there. Yeah, we know. And the third one will be it’s gonna be Elvis. Oh, yeah. Elvis Presley. Wow.

[01:06:10] Yeah. What a dinner.

[01:06:11] Party. Yeah. This Apple Music, it was always. It was the first person that did dentistry and Woman in London. And, you know, Lily. Lily. And your name was. And. Yeah, there’s others, but. But. But it would go on forever, won’t it?

[01:06:29] Have you seen. Have you seen the Bob Marley musical?

[01:06:32] No. Oh, my goodness.

[01:06:33] It’s amazing. It’s amazing. I don’t like musicals yet, but that one, my goodness, it was excellent. And it’s not what you’d expect. I mean.

[01:06:41] They still go in probably.

[01:06:43] When I went. It wasn’t that long ago and it was kind of new. Amazing, amazing, amazing thing. The different arrangements on the songs and.

[01:06:51] And just. Yeah, I love him. Yeah.

[01:06:53] Just the, the, the sound of that. Like you feel like it’s a live event, you know, like a live concert. You should definitely go to it. Definitely. Definitely go.

[01:07:01] Music does it, you know, doesn’t it? It’s like you could be singing down and it just, you know, it just does something to you, doesn’t it? Just lift your soul for sure.

[01:07:08] So then our final question. You’re on your deathbed.

[01:07:14] Yes, I’ve been there a couple of times. Yeah.

[01:07:19] After your story, this question’s a bit a bit poignant. On your deathbed, you’ve got your nearest and dearest around you, your family, hopefully your children by then, because of that operation, was so successful. And three pieces of advice you can leave for your family and for the world.

[01:07:41] Don’t ever let anyone intimidate you and have the courage to go. If you think you can do something, just go for it. Like don’t about anything. Stop you like where you come from, you know, just. Just go for it. That would be one one of them questions and about. Yeah. Just. Just know your worth. The other one, would they treat everybody as as you would want to be treated? Because you never know. But you could you could bet on people on the way up and then you don’t know where you’re going to fall. You always need and I’ll just say you should always treat the CEO and a janitor. They say the same, isn’t it? Because, you know, you should be humble. And then the last one would probably be. I always tell people that you love them because you never know when you’re not going to see them again just yet. And I do think love love is a cliche, isn’t it, really? But I think love is all you need, isn’t it? Really? It’s so true. That’s what it’s all about. Love. Love is everything. I think so, yeah. Don’t cry, baby was.

[01:08:47] No. You know what I was thinking? I was thinking of one of my friends is his mom passed away, and he said to me, Call your mom every day. But. But. But he wasn’t saying about because one day she’ll be dead. His his mom was sick, you know, had dementia for a few years before.

[01:09:05] This terrible disease.

[01:09:06] And he was saying, call your mom every day while the lights are still on. Like while while she’s there for you. Let her be.

[01:09:12] Yeah, but I don’t think we do that enough, though. Even with friends, the way you should tell people like and I always say, I always compliment people because everyone’s so quick to be negative. And you should always be like, if you like, don’t tell them. And you know, because like, the world can be quite dark and if you can, against that Michelangelo thing as well, isn’t it? You know, people will never, never forget how you make them feel. So, you know, if you can make someone stay a bit better, then do it, you know?

[01:09:38] That’s definitely, definitely, Yeah. I’ve really, really enjoyed this error.

[01:09:44] Me too. And I hope, though, I hate my voice.

[01:09:49] We all have our voice, so. And I know I’m going to be seeing you hopefully enlightened soon. So I.

[01:09:56] Really.

[01:09:56] Look forward. Look forward to that.

[01:09:58] Thank you so much.

[01:09:59] It’s been a pleasure.

[01:10:01] It’s been great. Thank you.

[01:10:04] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

[01:10:20] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.