[00:00:05] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi, and Prav Solanki.

[00:00:22] We’ve had some brilliant feedback from the Leading Lady series. This is the third part and some really brilliant nuggets. Highlights of the conversations with some of the top lady dentists in the country sharing their thoughts. Enjoy. Jenny Kirby, what’s your advice for for a woman who wants to get into implant ology? I mean, tell me about it. When you say it’s male dominated. Is it is it that the sort of the back slapping, gung ho not admitting to your failures, male dominated? Is that what you mean by male? I know it’s more men than women, but. But but culturally, what does that mean culturally?

[00:01:04] I think along the lines of what you said, that’s the impression I think a lot of us females get. And I think the bottom line is that there are not many females in it. I think the cost entry points to a high, considering what females tend to have to juggle the family life and the work life balance is much harder to kind of get into that realm of work.

[00:01:26] Yeah, but but if there were loads of women in ontologies out there. Are we saying? What would be different? Would we? Are you really saying people would be discussing their failures more?

[00:01:37] I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it’s a human thing. Discussing one’s shortcomings, failures, issues, insecurities, whatever you want to call it. I think people tend to be quite guarded in whatever capacity. But I think we should change that. Open up.

[00:01:55] I mean, I can imagine the men will say, my implant drill is bigger than yours, sort of, you know. Men have a way of doing it, particularly surgeons. You know, surgeons in general. They’re that way inclined. What would you say to a woman who wants to get into an implant ology now? What should she do?

[00:02:16] I think you should find mentors that you’re very comfortable with, people that are going to kind of build your confidence, empower you, and kind of help you in your journey. I met a woman called Karen McDermott. She’s an unsung hero. She’s retired now. She was one of the first females in England doing dentistry. She’s on a par on good friends with Ashok Sethi and Sharma. So she’s of that generation and she mentored me. And she really the times when I had down days, you know, she’d rock up at the practice and be there just to kind of support me. She was brilliant, you know, And she’s not one that’s kind of in-your-face and showing off and exuberant. She’s just an unsung hero. So I think you need to come across the right kind of people that are going to be supportive of you.

[00:03:06] But okay, listen, I don’t know enough about it to explain it to me. When you say find a mentor, there’s a mentor. Someone who, out of the kindness of their heart, is helping you or is a mentor someone you pay to help you, or it’s going to be both.

[00:03:20] I never found any. I think well, I think there’s people that are generous with their knowledge to varying degrees, and whether it be a phone call or discussion or, you know, watching them. And then there are people you’ve got to pay as well, understandably so, because they’re taking a day out to come and assist you. And you pay fees to varying degrees. And that’s why the entry level costs are quite high to kind of understand the game and the skill. I used a variety of mentors and people early on in my journey because I think as opposed to using the same mentor all the time, you can learn different things, skill set. Everyone does it differently.

[00:04:00] So break it down for me. What do I do? I’m a 29 year old associate. I want to. I want to become an implant ologist. Find someone who’s very experienced and say, Can I watch? And then what? Do a course you do?

[00:04:16] I probably say, don’t do implants. I’d say, Yeah, because I think everyone’s jumped onto the implant bandwagon.

[00:04:25] It’s very everyone’s jumped on to align bleach bond Right. That’s what everyone’s jumped on to implant.

[00:04:31] There’s a greater volume of people that named AbbVie as compared to implants. I think I think this I think is great. I think to software is great. I think should I say, there’s lots of other modalities and I think implants. There’s a lot of people teaching it and they’re making money. It’s a business of teaching dental implants, so it’s in their interest to get more people doing it. But I think the risks are quite high. The learning curve is too steep for an associate. It’s difficult investment and getting your structure and set up with the nurses and the sepsis and everything, there’s a lot to it and a lot of stress. So you have to be passionate, you have to be determined and you have to be carefully considered and sure that that’s something you’re going to do. What I have heard is there’s a lot of people that dabble on training and implant dentistry and haven’t continued it forward. There’s many people who’ve done it, but not taking it any further, which is understandable as well.

[00:05:25] Yeah, well, I definitely wasn’t expecting you to hear you say that. I mean, one minute you’re saying male dominated. I’m saying, Well, woman wants to get involved, ask for your help. And you were saying you would say, don’t do it.

[00:05:38] Oh, sorry. I’m sorry. I thought you said What would you say to anyone wanting to do it? I didn’t realise.

[00:05:43] But it’s an interesting response here. You’re saying really don’t do it unless you’re very, very serious. Yeah. Yeah, that’s what you’re saying.

[00:05:50] I think you have to be. Consider it carefully. Understand? I think a lot of people are misconceived implants to be a big book, big money spinner. Let’s get into it because I’m going to make a ton of money. I think you have to understand that the learning curve is steep and it’s long.

[00:06:07] And now you kind of teach on some of these implant courses to yourself.

[00:06:12] Yeah, Not. Not massively. I think it’s me now where I’m at. Interestingly, in my I’ve done the growth, the learning, the journey, the business, the practice set up, the private practice. Female kids. I feel if if you’ve heard of Maslow’s hierarchy of Needs, I really feel at a point in my life where I think I’ve got enough. I’m really content financially and I want to kind of give back and empower other people in whatever capacity I can. And when I was younger, money was important and it’s a natural tendency to want to show that money off, be it by a flash car, whether it’s because you enjoy driving it or whether you want to show it or designer clothes or whatever it might be adversely for me. Conversely, for me, it’s I’ve gone the opposite. I feel that I don’t really have a desire to kind of exhibit wealth. My needs have become a lot more modest. You know, I’m on a dieting program where I hardly anything now, so I can’t even spend it on fine food. So for me, the driver isn’t money in finances anymore, but more connecting with people, giving back, teaching, empowering, networking. And I really love people. I think I like understanding people and I feel that from a business point of view as well, I create synergistic partnerships, so I connect with people, try and identify their strengths and go into business along those lines. So if I tell you, you know, I’ve had a chicken and chip shop, I’ve had a car wash, a bed and breakfast holiday, less HMO student bills, property development, well, just very things. And it’s diversification. It makes life quite interesting.

[00:08:04] Arianne And Victoria Sampson.

[00:08:06] Because I wanted to do orthodontics, I had to do go through the motions of for the application, which the first part was to do a year of Max Fox, which I did at Northwick Park and the Northwest London hospitals. And that was actually the first time that I really veered off course in terms of my ambitions to be an orthodontist. That was one of the best years of my life. And the stress of it, the terrible hours, the on call, the gore, the emotions of that year of Max Fox. I loved every second of it, every second of it. And I very seriously thought to myself, I think I might not do orthodontics. I think I’ll do Max Fox. Wow. And after that year of Max Fox, I did two months more of Max Fox in Cambridge at Addenbrooke’s. Then I got a Pedes post at the Royal London. And Pedes posts were like, I think they still are. They’re like gold dust. They’re so hard to come by. So as soon as you hear about one, you have to go. So that’s why I left Addenbrooke’s only after two months. Started the post at the Royal London, and I still had Max Box in the back of my head. And so I applied for medicine while I was doing Pedes. And sometimes it takes just writing and sending off your application for you to really realise what it is that you want. And as soon as I put my application for medical school through the post, I was like, Actually, I don’t want to do it, but I needed to go through that motion to know that I’ll never regret the decision of not having tried for Max Box.

[00:09:47] I mean, the fact you enjoyed all the surgery house jobs is amazing to me. And I did an oral surgery house. I hated every second of it. I did not like it. So I guess you were all in that sort of in between. So do you now, do you now think if if life had turned that way, do you regret it to some extent, or are you fully happy that you never went that direction?

[00:10:11] I’m fairly happy. I never went in that direction. I think if I weren’t an orthodontist, but I was still in dentistry, then I would have done Max Box. But I really feel like an orthodontist, so I’m happy with it.

[00:10:25] What about you, Victoria? What was your first move out of dental school? What was the first thing the.

[00:10:31] So I did my bit and in London. So I stuck around and then I wasn’t sure if I wanted to specialise or not. A lot of people told me I should follow my sister’s footsteps and specialise and I was very interested in ended on techs and I just loved a good root canal. So that was actually where I was going to go down. And then when I finished I was finishing up my year and I started to shadow other dentists because I wanted to see what other types of dentistry were like and what I wanted to do. So I was shadowing. I was taking a day off of work to go and shadow other dentists, private NHS specialist, general dentists, everything. And I kept on shadowing them and realised that actually I love general dentistry and I love the fact that you can walk in and you can see anyone and you can be treating a six year old child and then treat an 85 year old for a root canal straight after. And I found it very exciting and just it kept me on my toes and I was meeting all of these amazing people. Like, I mean, obviously Arianne Straub is amazing, but for me I wouldn’t be able to just see a certain age group or do a certain treatment. I like the fact that I can do so many different things. So I decided that I would become a general dentist, but I would kind of explore everything. And I’m one of those people who likes to kind of learn everything and then and then decide what I want to do afterwards. So I was doing a ton of courses and I went into general dentistry. I started working part private half the week and then part NHS. And then about a year ago I made the shift to fully private and now I still do general dentistry, but I have a few things that I kind of don’t want to say specialise in, but things that I focus on and that I really like doing.

[00:12:21] Well, I know you’ve got this real research interest in the oral microbiome, but is that that’s not what you’re referring to, you’re referring to as dentists. What kind of things do you like doing?

[00:12:32] Well, actually, I do do a lot of work on the oral microbiome, but on my patients. So you do? Yeah. So I’ve started to when I was doing my research, I was realising that it’s not necessarily the quantity of plaque that’s the issue in terms of gum disease or decay, but it’s actually the quality and what bacteria you have in your mouth. I’m sure we’ve all had patients who have what seems like a very clean mouth and the patient’s got excellent oral hygiene, but somehow they’ve just got raging gum disease and you kind of blame it on like their immune system. You’re like, Oh yeah, it’s probably, you know, your body’s not reacting very well or something like that. But what I was finding was I was starting to do microbiome tests on these patients and I would just screen their mouths for the top 20 kind of pathogenic bacteria. And I was finding that a lot of these patients would have residual bacteria in their mouths from maybe bad habits ten years ago. And if we were able to modulate that bacteria and basically kick out those bad bacteria with specific antiseptics, antibiotics, like everything. So we do a lot of different things and then monitor them. We can then afterwards re redo the microbiome test and see that we’ve actually kicked out that bacteria. And the patient often actually not often always stabilises and their gum disease leaves and they, you know, it’s amazing. So that’s something that I it’s kind of my niche at the moment.

[00:13:54] Is that is it did it start with your interest in this stuff with Perio?

[00:13:58] Yeah. So what I started with, so Arianne and I rewrote a paper on the link between oral hygiene and COVID 19 severity about like I think a year and a half ago now. And it got me understanding more about the oral microbiome and kind of the invisible inside the mouth. And as you go through dental school, you’re taught a lot about how to treat dental disease, but not necessarily how to diagnose or how to monitor treatments. And so I kind of think of the mouth now and the saliva as the as blood. So you go to your doctor and you get a blood test. Why can’t you go to your dentist and get a saliva test and look at different inflammatory markers and bacteria and enzymes and etc.? And that’s where it all started for me. And I started working with the microbiome company straight after we published that paper and help them basically create a microbiome test, which I now use on my patients.

[00:14:55] Oh, wow. So, so let’s get let’s get into it then. What can we what can you learn from someone’s saliva? I mean, we understand there’s a link between gum disease and heart disease. There’s a link between gum disease and diabetes. Right. But is there more than that? Is there a whole lot of other stuff that outside of the mouth that you can tell by saliva?

[00:15:23] Yeah. So a lot of the kind of systemic like the chronic inflammatory diseases. So rheumatoid arthritis, osteo. Writers, those types of things. We’re seeing amazing results with our patients. So I’ve been working a lot with a couple of functional doctors near my practice and they refer their patients who they’re treating for rheumatoid arthritis. And these patients are, you know, drugged up on steroids. They can hardly walk. The disease can be very debilitating. And often because it’s to do with inflammation, with collagen degradation, which is very similar to gum disease in the mouth. These patients with rheumatoid arthritis often also have gum disease, and it’s not their number one priority, as unfortunately most people, their oral hygiene is not the first thing they think of when they have other ailments. And so these patients were being referred to me and these doctors are just like, Oh, can you just stabilise the gum disease and just make sure everything’s okay? And so we started to do that again, modulating their microbiome, checking their inflammatory markers. And what we were finding was that their rheumatoid arthritis was improving when their gum disease had been settled and there was a direct correlation between the two of them. So there’s a lot more systemic diseases where we can see that there’s a huge connection with the mouth. I mean, Alzheimer’s is the kind of the hottest one at the moment. There is a lot of the gastro kind of diseases, Crohn’s, all sorts of colitis, even deficiencies. So there’s so many. And I think that because of COVID and the fact that people are more understanding of their systemic health and they want to be the best kind of person they can be in as healthy as possible, it’s a great time for dentists to also show patients that there’s a strong connection with oral health.

[00:17:10] Rob Young man, tell me about motherhood. I mean, we discussed it at the beginning, the juggling. I mean, you’re are you still as sort of into teeth as you were before being a mother?

[00:17:24] Yes, surprisingly. But I find it harder to be so because before I had a I would just be like message somebody on Instagram, but like, Oh, hey, Ahmed Tydfil, you do great composites. You teach really well. Can I just come to you? Is like, Yeah, I’m in Pimlico. If I jump on a train one hour, go there, film with him, come back now. It’s like, I want to film with somebody. But I have Alana and my husband needs to go to work. Don’t want to put her nursery, so I can’t really ask to be a day where I can be like, Do you mind taking the day off? Can you watch it? And I can go film like even now today to do podcast review so that she’s not crawling around and screaming and jumping on me. I come to my mum’s house and said, Can you watch her for a bit while I’m on podcast? So it’s it’s a lot harder to work around. It’s not as flexible when you have a baby in terms of my free time is no longer my free time, but in terms of loving dentistry, the two days I go back to work now, I do love it. I actually love it.

[00:18:16] Love it even more, right?

[00:18:17] Because yeah, me time.

[00:18:19] My wife, my wife used say to me time and I can understand it needs time. Someone else. It’s not work.

[00:18:26] Yeah, I know that they say that, right? You’ve got your work life, your family life, and then you’ve got your metre. My me time. Work time is the same because I don’t really have any time. So I get to go to work, talk to my staff, I get to chat to my patients, have a laugh, do some dentistry, and then come home to my baby and just love and miss her even more.

[00:18:44] I mean, a bit of advice, you know, there’s no right or wrong in all of this year. But Nanny. Now, Honestly, honestly, you’re busy. And your mom, I don’t know where she lives and how far away she is and all that. All of that.

[00:18:58] Luckily, not too far, but.

[00:19:00] But, you know, busy people. And you should consider nannies. And we had a nanny. She stayed with us for 12 years now. Okay. It’s not always going to be like that. You might struggle. You can’t trust people. There was a time where every time my kid used to say something amazing, I was like, What? How did you learn that? And then she’d say, Oh, the nanny taught me that. And I would sort of feel like, Wait a minute, this is cool. Know you’re getting something other than flexibility out of out of the out of your nanny.

[00:19:30] My mom is like my current nanny at the moment. So she’s.

[00:19:33] Really.

[00:19:34] She’s the one who teaches a lot of everything.

[00:19:36] I mean, maybe I’m saying both sets of grandparents of my parents and my parents were both abroad, so we had to have someone to help us out or whatever. But it’s a bit like your first employee, you know, you need someone to push you into hiring sometimes, you know? Like that. Enlighten my partner, Sage. Whenever there’s a problem, he’s thinking, Who? Who can we bring in to take care of this problem? And for me, my natural position isn’t normally to think of hiring. You know, I like I say, No, I got it. Are you going to have more?

[00:20:10] I would like to. I would like to, but I kind of want to because I found out when we signed the papers for the practice in April and then we had to close the doors the next day, I was really sick. I thought it was just tired and stressed and I thought, Oh, we close the practice, know I can’t furlough the staff, can’t get a business grant because technically we counted as a new business because we were after March, anybody before March got all the grants. So we didn’t I thought this must be the stress, that this is why I’m feeling sick and tired and didn’t have.

[00:20:35] Enough cash like working capital to cover that all the staff’s wages for three months.

[00:20:40] So luckily, because the money was still coming in.

[00:20:42] Of course. Of course, of course. Cause.

[00:20:44] Cause we were able to not furlough them, but we just told them, Look, stay home. We’re going to pay you. We’re going to fix hours 96. We just paid all the staff. You’re going to get a fixed wage. If you want to come in a couple hours a day, you can do. And we had our receptionist calling all the people over 60 checking that they could get their food and shopping done and stuff like that, you know, And sometimes the nurse would come in and just reorganise the shelves and the cupboards and just a couple of hours just to keep them and they enjoyed it. So all that I would get at the house because they’re trapped at home. So they kind of enjoyed coming to the practice and they were like, Look, there’s no fixed hours, nothing. You’re paid 9 to 6, but if you want to come in, you can. And then we just started redecorating because we were inside the practice. Let’s just paint the surgery, let’s do a few things. So when I was painting, I was like, Oh man, I’m getting old. And then I took a pregnancy test. I was like, Oh, okay. So I got the practice. I got the baby exactly the same time. So yeah, that was a big, big surprise.

[00:21:37] And how about this book now? I mean, it’s not like you weren’t busy enough.

[00:21:41] We started the book before the practice and before, but really? Yeah. So when I started social media, actually about a year after, Nicola had been following me for a while. Doctor Go, I think you said you just interviewed her recently. Yeah. Lovely. And she similar to the media company just message and said, I really like the way you talk on your stories. I like you and you know, you seem young and full of energy. I have a project for you. Come meet me at my practice. And then I told my husband I was like this random lady, random Iranian lady. She looks quite sweet on her stories. She wants to meet me for a project. He’s like, What project? That’s like. She hasn’t said. She uses a secret project. He goes, Why are you going to go meet this random Iranian dentist lady? You don’t know to do a secret project you don’t know about? He looks like she could be weird. I was like, No, I can see her videos. She’s not weird. She’s just. He’s not. Why you? I said, I don’t know. She said she thinks I’m nice. She’s been following me. He’s like, okay. Then I went to her practice in a will. So she has she has two. And I went there and she goes, I want to write a book. And she’s like, people my age, they just they just don’t they’re not interested anymore. They want to retire. They don’t have the zest to this. And she’s like young people. They don’t have the knowledge, but she’s like, You’re in the middle. You seem to have the time, the knowledge, the zest for dentistry. Want to work on this project with me? And I said, Sure.

[00:22:52] I said, If we’re 50, 50 partners, I’ll put in as much energy as you want me to. But I said, I want my money, that I come from this to go to charity because I’ve been looking for a project to do for charity. So do you mind if I do something like that? She’s like, I have no problem. I said, Okay, let’s work on it. So we just started working. She had some ideas already. She’s like, I want it to be like a flow chart book. And I said, Whatever, you know, I’m busy and brown. So we talked like, if I was older than you, you just kind of say, I’ll say, Yeah, whatever you want. Nicola We’ll do it this way. She’s like, Can you come to our practice? Yes, we’ll do it. Yes, boss. Like everything. And so she loved it. This partnership worked. I had so much respect for her because she had so much knowledge and so much time and energy to share with me. And I just had the time at the time to sit there writing up stuff, looking at evidences, looking at papers. And when I started doing the project was quite exciting because I was like, Oh wow, there’s ten different ways you can do this. There’s 20 different ways you can do this, and you know, all the evidence is behind things. And we just started working on the book and yeah, it just went from there and just kind of spiralled and just got bigger. And we started making more chapters and adding more things. And it just. Came this dentistry in a nutshell, an exciting project for the two of them.

[00:23:53] Really is really interesting. So fully for charity, it was just your bit for charity and.

[00:24:02] I think Nicola’s doing a few things. Charity issue she was mentioning. There’s a few things she wants to do. I have a question. I said, Whatever you do with your you’re I always mentioned, I always say my promise 100% go there. But there is a few things she’s doing for charity as well. But I had a few places that I wanted to help. But I want is I don’t know if you know who I am. And he just Wells and Wills. Yeah. So just donated there for a village there, which was quite nice. And there’s a few schools in Pakistan and there’s a homeless shelter here in the UK hand on heart. I like what they do for their charities, so I just kind of wanted to find a way to make a difference because I feel like my time isn’t my time now. So if I call it donate, my time for charity is like a donation of wealth. So something.

[00:24:41] Rabia Why are you that person who wants to do something for charity and what believes in the NHS for what it is? And you know what? Why aren’t you the other type of, you know, like make as much money as I can and.

[00:24:55] Maybe religiously and from things that happened in my life, You know, when I got married to Carlile, two weeks, three weeks after his mum passed away from cancer, she was diagnosed four months before the wedding with melanoma and she passed away two weeks after the wedding. She was in Australia. It was really stressful time and she was flying back and forward and we got married early before the wedding date so I could fly with him, you know, practice my parents in Pakistani. They’re not gonna let you fly with, with my fiance to Australia. You get married in the mosque, go, off you go, and then you fly to Australia. And then we saw her in the hospital and she was like, No, you guys go back for your wedding. I want to see your wedding pictures. I can’t be there at the wedding, but I want my son to have his wedding. So we flew back and then three days flew back into Australia and then she was in palliative care for two weeks and then she passed away. And when my father was putting her stuff away, you know, her PhD is that Look, what do I do with her PhD, what I do with her gold, what I do with jewellery. Look, I walk in closet with all these clothes. What do we do if she’s not taking anything with her? And it’s true, we didn’t.

[00:25:54] We don’t take anything with us, you know, We only thing you really can leave behind is people who might say something nice about you. And I remember the funeral when everybody met me. We didn’t have a reception to laughter, and they were like, Oh, that girl in the black, She must be Khalil’s new wife. That’s that’s her daughter, Louis, Janet’s daughter in law. And I can hear people whispering. Then they’ll come up to me like, Oh, you know, sorry about your mother in law. She was amazing. Everyone had these wonderful things to say about her. She’s so helpful. She helped us with this and she helped me do this. And she was so kind. And it just it was amazing to hear about her because I didn’t know her for very long. And I thought, you know, when I die, what would people say about me? Have I helped anyone? Have I touched anybody in a special way, in A to to make them feel that they would want to come to my funeral and say something. And, you know, so I just felt like maybe I hadn’t made enough of an impact in somebody else’s life other than mine or my families. So I thought, how can I help somebody else? You know, how can I leave something behind?

[00:26:53] Nicola Gaul Tell me about the book Density in a nutshell. How did it come about? And Dr. Rabie, a man who we’re having on this show soon as well, your co co-host, how did you meet her and how did this all happen?

[00:27:06] So it all boils back down to me being a trainer. When I was a trainer, I was every year teaching this. So I’ve been a trainer since 2003. Now, up till now, never had a gap in between, thank God. And hopefully I won’t. I want to carry on being a trainer till I can. So I was teaching everything with tips and every time I went on a course the tips would be adding up and everything I teach them is like a cocktail of everything I’ve learned throughout my career from oral surgery, cosmetic, my M.S., my, my experience in dentistry. So when it got to one of my trainees called Kavita, I said to Kavita, Look, Kavita, this is like going back to 2019. I said, I think it’s better if I write things down and make it into flowcharts. It’s easier to learn. And she goes, Sure, how would you like me to do that? I said, So let’s start with bridge prep. Can you put that into a flowchart and write it down? Like from from the moment that we’ve treatment plans to put into study models, topical ELA, consent forms, you know everything, Let’s do it in a flowchart. She goes, okay, I’ll try. So she did it on word and she showed it to me and I said, Brilliant, Let’s do the next one on Crown.

[00:28:23] Let’s do the next one on, I don’t know, immediate dentine ceiling. So we started doing flowcharts and I got a pool of paperwork together. Then I was looking at it one day I said, Oh my God, I should make it into a logbook. So for my next trainee, it’s easier to teach. So I started putting it into a logbook. And then and then I looked at it. I thought this would make a good book. And then I looked on. I was like, looking and searching like, what else to write. So I said, okay, we’re going to have different chapters, restorative, this, that and the workload was getting too much. I thought, You know what? Let me let me find someone who’s so passionate about dentistry like I am. Then I started thinking of all my trainees. I know everybody was busy and generally busy with Smile Academy. Kavita was helping me anyway with this stuff. The other trainees that were doing, they had implants or so most of my trainees have done a master’s degrees now and they’re very busy in their own practices. So I looked on Instagram, I came across Rabiya, which I was following at the time, and she was like talking all about her cases in surgery, similar to what I was doing. I thought, She’s really a mini me.

[00:29:33] I really like her. So I messaged her on Instagram. I said, Rabiya, I have a small project I’m working on. I really want your help. And she goes, Well, what is it you want me to do? I said, Just come over because I don’t even know what I want you to do. Just come over. So she she said, Where are you guys at Harrow. She goes, Oh, I live in Harrow. I’ll come. So she came to her will. She had a look at this. She goes, Oh my God, yeah, let’s do it. So fun. You know, whatever. I said, I don’t know if it’s going to be a book or what is a project. Let’s just work on it. So we started working on it together and eventually it hit. Eventually she fell pregnant. She was very sick. She couldn’t do any more work. And then she then turned around. She bought a dental practice, then it became COVID and then everything just fell apart. So we wrote some of it, some chapters randomised, we made it into chapters, but it wasn’t nothing major. Then during COVID, we did a bit more together, which we had time, we organised all the chapters and stuff and then it hit Christmas time, Christmas time. By then Pooja, my current trainee, had started to work with me.

[00:30:39] I said to Puja, You’re so good at tech stuff, which I’m so bad at. Can you help me like tie these flowcharts up and put photos for stuff? And it goes, Yeah, of course, tell me what to do. So he started helping me and then by then I had also established the British Iranian Dental Association and I had a committee, one of the people on my committee who was my secretary, the Beatles secretary. His name is Millard Miller, and he is a fifth year dental graduate from Glasgow. You met him in BCD? Yeah. And he’s you did meet him. And he I said to him that, you know, he said, I can help you as well on this. It’s such a good project because I wanted him to proofread it because he’s in dental school and I thought it’s going to help because he’s quite up to date. So I said, Can you help proofreading it? So it started proofreading it and he goes, The doctor goes, There’s lots more we can add to the book. I’m happy to help you. So then I said, Okay, why not? Then again, it hit COVID time with lockdown. And in my family, everyone got COVID last Christmas really badly, especially Mahmood. Poor thing. His oxygen levels dropped to 78. He was awful.

[00:31:50] I mean, we didn’t take him to hospital. I nursed him myself to recovery with oxygen and everything else. And anyway, so we were on Zoom day in, day out, day in, day out, over Christmas, over January. And we metered it up a lot, worked on it. Pujan mILLAR were really, really good at helping me, organising it, giving it a bit more oomph. And Pooja was amazing at finding publishers and editing and publishing the book. And both boys helped me with, with help us with the marketing side and Instagram videos and putting the stuff together and like we had plans of how we’re going to move this forward and eventually release it. So really this book is a product of teamwork, is a product of unity, is a product of trust. It’s not just it was my project for for, I would say six months. I shared it with Rabia. Rabia helped me a lot on it. And then eventually we brought Pujan Mila Din, who actually finished it and helped us finish it and get it to where where it is now. So I would never say it’s just my book. This is our book. It’s a team team effort, and we had a group of specialists who actually peer reviewed it as well and everyone’s been acknowledged. So again, another black book.

[00:33:13] Another black. I love you. Your your stories tend to always go round. You inspired someone to do something. It’s a beautiful thing.

[00:33:21] Yeah, it’s a beautiful dude. Thank you, Payman. Thank you.

[00:33:24] We’re going to end it. We end it in the in the same way every time. And it’s weird because we’ve spoken for over an hour and a half and we still haven’t even talked about your current practice. But you told me everything you needed to tell me that the nurse is looking forward to coming to work, and that’s. That’s the best sign you could ever have.

[00:33:44] Exactly.

[00:33:45] So we’ve got two final questions, perhaps final question and my first or perhaps final question. You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest all around you. One of three bits of advice, you’d leave them.

[00:34:01] Oh, Prav, what a difficult question. Number one, always have time for people, especially people you care for. Not family first. Family always first, parents first, siblings first, then your nearest and dearest friends. But then sometimes nearest and dearest friends become family, don’t they? Payman? They become like family. So always have time, always have empathy. Try and be. If I was on deathbed with my children, whether I’d say, be organised, be organised, I want to leave that legacy behind because organisation is what helped me, you know, being organised. I have books, I have diaries, I have, you know, if I show you, I have every year I have a book. Yeah. And I write everything in here for my trips. I plan ahead, you know, and I’ve learned this. It’s not I haven’t been born with it. I’ve watched people who do it and it’s helped me. The other thing is always the people who help you. Give them the credit for it. Don’t take the pie and eat it yourself because Payman Langroudi didn’t become Payman Langroudi on his own. Nikola God didn’t become Nikola, Igor on her own. You know, we all have a story. We all have a journey. And when you actually say that, that you appreciate and you give credit to people who help you, you actually get respected more and you get to higher places and you will achieve your dreams. Why? Because people then want to come and help you because they know. Nikola go Payman Langroudi will credit them for their hard work, not going to chew them and throw them away. And I think and I hope that people who have been in my life, they feel that I am like that and I don’t, you know, use them or abuse them and I am giving them credit for the hard work they do for me. And I appreciate it.

[00:36:08] That’s lovely.

[00:36:10] Alexandra Jasinski I mean, I really hope whoever is listening this podcast and dealt with some complaints, I would really like them to send me a message to tell me if they 100% got over it.

[00:36:26] Yeah, I hear you.

[00:36:26] I hear you because I didn’t and I don’t think I will ever do. Listen, I feel like.

[00:36:32] Alex, that’s ridiculous. That’s ridiculous. I’m sorry. I don’t mean to say it’s ridiculous because it’s.

[00:36:37] Like.

[00:36:37] It’s all right. It’s still reality. It’s your reality are the other means. The word was wrong. Ridiculous is the wrong way.

[00:36:43] That’s okay.

[00:36:44] But you will get over this. Yeah. I mean, you know, I know people in much worse situations and gotten over it. Yeah. And, you know, I don’t know you. I don’t know exactly whether you you were. But my point is, you know, it’s like, it’s like, I don’t know, like. Like a like a death. Yeah, you’ll never forget it. But in the end, you know, you move on from it. Yes. You know. Well, if, God forbid, someone close to you passes away, I’m not going to say you’re ever going to get over that, because, you know, that’s that’s a that’s a thing that, you know, you’re never going to get over, but you can get back to the person you were. I wouldn’t write yourself off that quickly. You know what I mean? Very young to do that, I think.

[00:37:34] But look at you. You’re very wise, right? I probably you lived like four times more than I lived so far.

[00:37:41] So that was my job to tell you these things then.

[00:37:44] So it’s it’s it’s amazing that you tell me this. And I think you’re absolutely 100% right. But it’s like being scared of heights. You know, you can’t really control it. And, you know, when we will go to, like, my transition and stuff, and when I took some space out of it, I started to miss it. And I understood going back in the clinic.

[00:38:09] To.

[00:38:09] Value it. I’m actually doing a brilliant job. Of course, I’m not, you know, like maybe a good cosmetic surgeon kind of dentist that does impeccable bonding techniques and stuff. But the way I treat a patient is always fair and it’s with gentleness. And I think fair is the most important word here. Yes. And I do what’s right for them. And I understand that. And I feel it every single time I’m in the clinic. But somewhere, you know, deep inside, it’s always that very bad memory. It’s not just what happened, but how long it took to clear out. And it’s a relieving every time you get to go through this process, you understand that it’s an ongoing feeling that you’re experimenting. Basically, you’re you’re feeling basically and maybe it’s something you know, maybe I need to educate myself. I need to do.

[00:39:05] To in this country, we’re going through a nightmare legal situation as dentists. Yeah, in that yeah, more dentists are getting more complaints and being sued by more patients than than in every other country apart from New Zealand. Apparently so. More than America, which is, you know, we were always used to look at American dentists and laugh about how they’re getting sued all the time. But it’s happening more here. And I know this isn’t helping you at all.

[00:39:32] So that’s very encouraging.

[00:39:36] But but the thing is, talking to you, I can see you’re one of those dentists. We need more dentists like you. You know, more people who are doing it for the patient fair. You know, you’re obviously you’re an enthusiastic person. The profession needs more people like you. And it’s a damn shame if people like you who someone who’s gentle and responsive. You know, the problem is someone who’s gentle yourself. I’m not talking about with your hands, but a gentle person gets hurt more by this sort of thing than someone who’s hard and just shrugs it off. But, you know, I know dentists just just to help you out. I know dentists have been sued every year for the last four years. And the more it happens, the less they worry about it. Because they figure out they figure out the system of what is what is a real complaint.

[00:40:23] Brokers.

[00:40:24] And and so forth. And, you know, complaints. They shouldn’t happen. But but you should think of them as part of the job. Now in UK dentistry, it’s easy for me to say I’m not practising anymore.

[00:40:38] And it’s not even fair. Yeah.

[00:40:41] When I was practising, when I was, I stopped practising ten years ago, but when I was practising it, this thing just wasn’t a big issue, you know, It wasn’t as big an issue as it is right now. And I know a lot of the younger dentists are stressing a lot and we’re about to do a whole mental health month and talk to people about I know the number one cause of mental health problems in dentistry is patient complaints. So you should join that that little. We’ll talk.

[00:41:07] About that.

[00:41:07] Absolutely So so okay. So you decided it damaged you you thought irreversibly and and you decided you were going to pull away from dentistry and look at other avenues. Yeah. Tell me about that story. So how did it, you know, the confidence it takes? You know, we’ve only ever done dentistry, right?

[00:41:27] So that’s the hard part of it because I ever I mean, anything I read and anything I learned was for dentistry, for teeth. And I have a very good friend of mine, a very good friend of mine. Her name is Alex and she she always says like, But you have transferable skills, you know, I mean, I hear this so many times, I’m a bit tired of it. And I she has a very good heart and she’s amazing and she’s very, very important to me. But it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t want your dentist. No, she’s not the dentist. She’s. She’s a, she’s, she’s practising. She, she worked for Facebook and now she’s on Amazon. Wow. She’s a very good she’s practising now to be a coach and to help you understand like not a coach, like all the coach, but like a really important one. She, she helps people like high level CEOs and stuff to.

[00:42:30] But do you believe that there aren’t some things about being authentically help you?

[00:42:35] Absolutely they are. But tell me, because I applied to many jobs, especially when COVID hit and stuff. Yeah, who cares about them and who takes two, 3 minutes to understand what my transferable skills are?

[00:42:52] You know, it’s a matter of marketing early. Yes. Yeah. You know, I could put someone in front of you or say stuff like, you know, as a dentist, I’ve had to learn complex things. Being under pressure.

[00:43:03] Enabled.

[00:43:03] Me to make people happy.

[00:43:05] Time management.

[00:43:06] Time. You can, you know, the what you.

[00:43:08] Talk about meant.

[00:43:09] Yeah. Although I can see you being the sort of very in the short time I’ve had with you, I can see you being this very sort of honest to honest person.

[00:43:18] Maybe that’s my problem. Yeah.

[00:43:20] Yeah. And, you know, marketing is about first lying to yourself and then telling other people that lie.

[00:43:30] Like, you mean, like, fake it until you make it kind of thing.

[00:43:34] But lying to yourself, you have to. You have to believe. And in this new thing that you’re saying. And so that takes a degree of confidence. And, you know, I mean, lying is the wrong word for it, but it’s this present presenting it, presenting it to yourself in in, in in a way that makes sense to you. And then you can you can sell it to other people. Yes. But, you know, again, in dental school, we weren’t taught marketing either.

[00:44:00] So go on. Losing art, no business skills, nothing. Just how to.

[00:44:05] Feel. What happened? What happened? Where did the flower thing come from? Had you done anything like that before? Or did you always.

[00:44:10] Want to something? So listen, I didn’t give up on dentistry very easily. I did. Well, first of all, with me, I didn’t give up.

[00:44:17] At all having given up yet.

[00:44:18] But no more than that. So I had another baby. I kept going. So I worked until I was pregnant. I went to work from London to Chichester and my eighth month of pregnancy every day for I love it, you know, I didn’t care. Yes. I didn’t want to leave my patients. I knew it was time for us to come back to London because things weren’t very good with my husband job. And we said, if we need opportunities, you need to be in London. So that was the reason. It was a good choice for us. But that meant for for until I got to my maternity leave, I had to travel. I think it was seven months, four days a week, sometimes five London to Chichester, back and forth. But I loved it. It was home for me, you know, I really like that clinic. The staff was fantastic. The people at the CEO and stuff. Amazing. I liked it. It worked for me. I had some some freedom to learn some stuff, to use some materials. You know, you can’t as an associate, you don’t really have that all the time. So when I moved to London, I said, Give, please give me the opportunity to work in Fulham in the Sainsbury one.

[00:45:26] And they said, Yes, of course, gone. I went not full time because, you know, I learned my lesson. Let’s do it a bit more part time. I had a baby at home as well. So I started with two days. Of course I loved it. I always loved teeth and see patients. And I think talking with them and making them feel a bit better, it’s something that I really, really enjoy. So I started working there and at some point I think maybe they felt they have a little bit of problems with the with the overall organisation and they will have to sell. So they, they wanted to sell the practice to me. You should have. And I was I was ready to buy it. We started the papers, we starting everything, everything, everything. And then the COVID hit and my lawyers, I had a very nice lawyers and financial advisers was telling me, Alex, I do appreciate your enthusiasm to close this deal, but if bigger names in the industry don’t buy that, they don’t buy anything at this moment, I can’t let you buy. It’s just not a good move for you.

[00:46:33] Well, that was bad advice, but.

[00:46:37] I don’t know. You know, listen.

[00:46:40] Because I heard I heard about the prices at some of those Centre for Dentistry went for and they were bargains. Bargains.

[00:46:48] Yes. But there are many things that, you know, they aren’t out there. You can you can you can I can take you in private because I was I was I wasn’t given a bargain deal.

[00:47:06] Hannah Burrow. How do you even set up these meetings? How does that work?

[00:47:10] Luckily, we’ve got really good network through through the incubator that we went through. So they have like created these they’ve made these introductions to begin with. And now you kind of you’ve got that network and you can reach out to those investors. But you also then because we’ve now got other investors that are invested in Heroku, they really are extremely powerful in terms of making more introductions, meeting new investors, and it really is just kind of back to back meetings, talking through your business, talking through answering any questions they have. Quite often it won’t even be that they don’t believe in your business. It might just be that they aren’t the right investor to feel like they’ve got the knowledge to support you. But all the same, you do feel it. I think actually my day would be quite different of my my most difficult day of Heroku and it would come down to team. And when we had an employee who handed in the resignation, which happens, you know, it just wasn’t a good day either. It’s just part of part of the process. But when there’s someone that you really, really respect and they’re not continuing to work with you, even if it’s because they’re going to start their own business or they want to be exposed to a different type of technology or whatever it is, that.

[00:48:23] Sort of thing.

[00:48:24] Exactly like that for me, felt like a huge failure of leadership or communicating vision or being effective at listening to not even sorry, not customer employees. So that was for me a really that was kind of a tough time.

[00:48:43] I definitely agree with that. I remember that day that’s only happened once.

[00:48:48] And it’s not that we’ve only had one one resignation ever. We’ve had more than that. But quite often, you know, they’re coming. But it wasn’t even the first one, actually. It was just a particularly difficult one where we didn’t see it coming. Whereas a lot of our resignations, we’ve known from early doors that they’re considering starting their own business or, you know, it’s been a conversation. And I think it being unawares felt like a huge failure because it’s, you know, that is you should have been able to pick that up sooner.

[00:49:15] What would you say is your biggest weakness? Hannah? To the classic interview question.

[00:49:21] I think my biggest weakness and I’m giving you a really classic answer because I’m going to give a really I think I’m not going to say that because that’s just not true. But I think my biggest weakness is probably also a big strength of mine and is that ability not to not quit, not to give up, because I think sometimes that’s allowed me to have real grit. But I think sometimes I put myself in a situation where it’s not returning what it should anymore. And I haven’t called it because I just didn’t even consider I should quit. That would be a failure.

[00:49:58] Yeah, I’m the same. I’m the same. And you find a lot of times your biggest weakness is your biggest strength.

[00:50:04] Yeah.

[00:50:05] Because I’m giving you example of that moment when you just would not quit.

[00:50:09] I think for me, actually, this is going to sound really like, but like, not a big deal. But I think it was just when I was I was working in a practice on Saturdays as well as doing Kokrokoo and to say it was 9 to 5, as is not the truth. So like doing a very kind of intense job and doing every Saturday and did it for two and a half years. And I think I just got to a point where I actually just wasn’t going out and seeing my friends. I wasn’t going out for dinners because I was just always so, so tired. And I eventually got to a point which was like, Why am I doing this? It just I hadn’t even considered that I shouldn’t be doing that anymore. And even if it was just kind of changing when I was doing it, you know, it’s not even that I’m not doing any clinical work these days, but I think that for me was me just doing the same thing over and over again and not considering that I could I could change it. Martina Hodgson I don’t really believe in mistakes. Not all like grapes. I think everything in life should be a learning experience, but I do wish I’d had the confidence I have now. But when I see all these young dentists out there doing crazy, amazing stuff and achieving all these amazing things, and I think, oh, this, I’d have that confidence 20 years ago, imagine what I could have achieved.

[00:51:29] Yeah, I know what you mean. I interviewed a fourth year dental student for this show and he’d figured some stuff out that I figured out last week, pissed me off a little bit.

[00:51:44] I think that, like these young dentists is so different to how.

[00:51:51] Yeah, but their big stress. Their big stress heads. I was going to go into the empowering women in dentistry. Yeah. How did that come about? Was that was that kind of this thing that you found yourself, you found your confidence then you wanted to share that with other women.

[00:52:08] So what happened was I went into this into Costa Coffee where I live, and there was this. Amazonian glamorous women stood in front of me in the coffee key, and I looked at her and I was like, Oh, it’s Andrea and Andrea Eby. I’d always this top 50 dentistry failure. Like every last 20 years it’s been coming out. I’ve been reading it. And she was always in it. And she was she was quite the trailblazer, you know, in terms of marketing and all this kind of things. And I’d followed her for 20 years, never met her. And so I introduced myself. I said, Oh, hi, I’m Dennis, and we just hit it off and we got chatting and then we met up again and we sort of both female practices owners, of which obviously we are outnumbered by men in terms of practice ownership. It was, it was a real delight to to speak to another female practice owner and we both really enjoying our conversation and the way that we approach running our practices seem to be different from maybe the when the way that men do it. And we felt like there was this big need out there for women to come together in dentistry because we recognise this huge lack of confidence amongst women and this kind of imposter syndrome, this feeling that you’re never you’re not what people think you are and you’re never going to achieve what people think you can and all this.

[00:53:41] And it’s huge. It’s a huge problem that I’ve always suffered from as well, and we just felt like it would be fun. It was like, Yeah, it’s just one of those stupid ideas again. It was like, Oh, wouldn’t it be fun if we just did a conference and got those women together and got some cool female speakers in and just tried to be a bit inspiring to women and tried to help other women the way that we were helping each other and that Andrea was helping me and growing my confidence. And so we did. And so we started doing it and we got this really amazing response and through lockdown and everything, it was really incredible. And so that’s how it came about, really. It was just seeing that kind of opportunity and seeing this thing that was missing.

[00:54:23] Who spoke at the conference.

[00:54:26] What we had. So we had Mind Ninja Lady, we had Morreau, That’s Mark Lawson, We have Sally Gano. She was like our keynote speaker. That was amazing. She took us through that whole mindset of how she won gold at the Olympics at the 100 metre hurdles and that was crazy. Like the way she rehearsed that in her mind thousands of times before she did that run. And she just every set, every step was rehearsed in her mind. And it’s that a whole kind of visualisation and I think successful people do that a lot, this visualisation of, of what it is you want to achieve because you naturally think about your goal all the time. So inevitably it becomes something that’s going to happen. But yeah, we had some amazing speakers. It was a fun day.

[00:55:21] Did you say juggling motherhood and business ownership has been a challenge to you?

[00:55:28] Yeah, it’s a challenge because it’s a psychological challenge to me. I have huge working mother guilt and I have a massively supportive husband without whom I couldn’t do achieve what I have achieved. He’s very flexible in his job and he’s very willing to do a lot of the childcare. But every day I struggle with my guilt of not spending enough time with them or not being present enough. But this comes back to this, and I think I do, by the way, I do think I do spend a lot of time with them, but I’ll never stop feeling guilty. But then that drive side of me knows and my husband knows that if I was to give it all up, which, you know, I want to do every day sometimes, but if I was to give up doing what I’m doing, I would be miserable, depressed, very bored person.

[00:56:31] I was I was reading I was doing some research on you, and I came across some article in dentistry where he said, every Sunday I go to the spa and recharge Sunday evening. And I think it’s such an important thing because too many ladies in particular, I think I’m sure there’s some men like this too, but too many ladies in particular are sort of martyrs to the everything that they do, and that leaves nothing for them. And there is some there are some particularly sort of more, I call it enlightened or forward thinking people who realise that that there’s like if you’re not taken care of, you can’t take care of anyone else. When? How long? How long ago did you do that? You still doing that?

[00:57:18] You still going to do that? Excellent. Let’s go to Sunday night. I took some more dinner. We’ve had a nice weekend, and then I just go off to the spa for 2 hours, and I just sit there and think about stuff. And it’s the only time I get headspace sit and think about. And usually I think about work. My next idea. But yeah, it’s just my headspace, really.

[00:57:40] Katie Blake. You know what I was I was quite impressed with because obviously, you know, I’ve got four kids. I’ve worked with numerous associates, some who have taken longer time out of dentistry. But you were very clear. You was like, okay, so Prav, we’re going to we’re going to tailor the implant campaigns down because I’m going to place my last implant on this day. Then I’m going to have X number of weeks off and then we’ll just take and then I’ll start doing some simple cases and then and then I’ll go straight in.

[00:58:14] Yeah. I mean, what’s stopping you? Save your baby. People having babies for centuries all over the world.

[00:58:21] Do you do you think do you think it’s harder for women to do dentistry?

[00:58:26] I think well, I listen to one of your other podcasts. I’ve forgotten the lady’s name, who was you were just discussing a lot about about women in dentistry. Forgive me for not remembering her name. And I think, you know, like you said, that it’s a great career choice for women. You’ve got that flexibility, you know, to be in and out, alter hours and things like that. I think the only difficulty somehow is when everybody tries to do everything, you know, And of course, I feel the pressure is the same as anyone else, you know, owning your business, having kids, you know, some something’s got to give somewhere. But children are resourceful things, aren’t they? They just get on with it. I think my opinion is that sometimes we’re all a bit too led by children and they just have to get on with it. But, you know, very little. So we’ll see how they turn out.

[00:59:15] Yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting point, isn’t it, to be led by your children or to lead your children in different directions. But there must be a tension, right, between the amount of time you’re spending with them and the amount of time you’re spending at work. And do you feel that you don’t feel that like others do? The guilt and all of that?

[00:59:35] Yeah, I think it is sometimes stressful. I’d say the thing that does often give is having any time for yourself, which I know is is a challenge. You know, there’s obviously been a lot on social media in the news and stuff recently about this kind of burnout stresses mental health and all of this. I think it’s a really interesting point I’m very good at, I personally think, compartmentalising things so I can go home and not think about work for a whole evening, you know, which can be a negative, I guess can be a positive. But it does mean that for me, at least when I’m not at work, I feel I don’t really get too involved. Not lying. I do occasionally wake up early and think about it, but I don’t struggle to get to sleep at night, you know? So whether that’s a good or bad thing, it probably is what allows me to be very busy at work and then go home and be a mother. And there isn’t much crossover between the two. I’ve got a great team at work. Makes a big difference. You know, occasionally I can think of even a couple of weeks ago my husband was away skiing since February. Very important to go skiing even with a newborn baby at home. And I had a late patient and so I sent the treatment coordinator to go and pick up the kids from nursery down the road, and she brought them back to work because I can get there. So I think everything you can’t do it all by yourself, can you? You know, so so having that that support team, whether it’s for childcare, for the house, for the business, it’s, you know, it’s a team effort.

[01:01:03] Okay, Katie, your husband’s your right hand man, not just in life, but in your business as well. Right. So just before we get into that, you mentioned you met at sixth form. Yeah. Ten years later, you got together. Just just how did that just tell us about that, that little joke. I’m just curious.

[01:01:26] Maybe just a slow burner. I think I read a big group of friends, you know, and I think it’s a case of. Right, right. Person, different time, right person, right time. Everybody sometimes as you think. What would life have been like if you’ve recognised age 18 or whatever? We met Robin 14, you know, but actually all your experiences make you the person that you are today. So so we got there in the end, you know, and yeah.

[01:01:54] So did did you have a ten year gap or were you in touch with each other?

[01:01:57] We were in touch, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we’re still friends. We were the same friends. Yeah. Oh, cool. So. So. So yeah, we’ve we’ve essentially grown up together, but, you know, it means, you know, each other and each other’s families. So bizarrely, my parents didn’t actually realise his first name for about the first. Two years that we were dating because we all call them by a surname, which is Blake. You realise it wasn’t to use it to the relationship because I’ve never heard him call anything else.

[01:02:28] Blake. Blake. So, Katie, how far did you go in all surgery? Did you just do the one little house job, or did you take it further?

[01:02:36] No, just the one house job. Yeah. And then a moment of clarity that although I loved the job, I needed a life. So I actually tapped out of London and went down to Cornwall and did a few locum jobs. Took a bit of time out, you know, having done London and London for seven years, you know, I wanted to go get a bit of bit of headspace, which is a great thing to do, you know, lovely area bit the back and beyond. So I thought I’d come back up for work where I came from then.

[01:03:04] So your oral surgery job didn’t particularly help with being a implant surgeon. You hadn’t had enough experience of cutting people.

[01:03:13] And I think.

[01:03:15] Was it one of those jobs that you did jump in and take wisdom teeth out and all that?

[01:03:20] A bit, yes. I think that the most important thing and why I would still always say to new graduates that doing a job like that is great is after you’ve been the on call person for a trauma centre in London and your first person, nothing faces you, you know. So and I distinctly remember my last day on the job being on call and being called to the neuro ICU and they’d hit something whilst doing a tracheostomy. And I was the person they called to stop to stop the bleeding out of hole in the neck. So having, having had that as your kind of you are the person that they call for those sort of issues, really, you know, teeth are just teeth, which, you know, so I think can put things into perspective a bit. Not saying that it could make people blasé because I think there’s obviously we all know there’s risks of everything, but it certainly makes you think, okay, you know, it’s going to be okay.

[01:04:22] So then you decided you’re not going to go down that path. And then what’s a general practice became a goal.

[01:04:30] Yeah. General practice. I was in a busy NHS practice in Essex called Often Union said Can I have a job? And they said, Yeah, there you go. Which in that is the practice. In retrospect, at the time I thought, wow, I must, you know, they really, you know, really good friends. In retrospect, I think if someone like me called me up now and said, Can I have a job, I would say yes. So I can see see where it’s where they were coming from. So did a bit of that and then went up and did Patel’s employment course at UCL and it carried on from there really, which is a great, a great foundation interest course taught me a lot, exposed me to a lot of interesting lectures and things like that, and was a pretty robust course as I found it robust, just put it that way.

[01:05:24] Take us through the decision making process because the vast majority of men and women, by the way, don’t go to implants. What is it about you that made you want to go that way? Had you decided from the beginning that you would be doing implants? Was there a particular patient, a conversation, someone you spoke to, a mentor? Like? What made you make that call to go on Dev Patel’s course where so many people don’t like me as a dentist? I’d never even considered it for a second.

[01:05:52] Yeah, I think for me it was being in the right place at the right time with the practice principle at the time was quite enthusiastic about implants and supportive of somebody who wanted to do that.

[01:06:05] Was he placing himself being.

[01:06:08] Yes. So you were watching him. Where? Where? Yeah, well, your boss sent messages through. Oh, I’m just about to do this. Do you want to come and watch? And the answer’s always yes. Go and have a look. See what they’re doing. So, you know, not a academic, high flying guy, but just, you know, a decent dentist placing decent implants. You know, that that I think is important. Obviously, that or surgery experience has always been really interesting, which I think actually stems from going out on a few charity projects. I’ve done a few over the years, sort of bridge to aid a few other of the Ugandan projects and Euro Central America, things like that. So the doctors in the surgery had come from a few of those experiences over the years as well. So for me, it seemed like a natural step, you know, how can you make or some kind of surgery sit in with general practice? I think for me that was the obvious way to go. And looking around at courses probably, I think still at that time, definitely, you know, you see others, one of the reputable ones, as far as I was concerned anyway.

[01:07:11] Sandra Garcia Martin Let’s talk about women. Let’s talk about women in dentistry. If you felt it, if you felt outside of the obvious, right. I’m sure you’ve had some patient fall in love with you and say, oh, will you marry me or whatever, outside of that sort of outside of that sort of thing, yeah. Have you felt subtly that it’s more difficult being a woman than a man as a dentist?

[01:07:33] I’ve been asked this several times, and I always say the same thing either I was very like in my own little world. I just don’t think that way. So whenever. But now, looking back, I, you know, situations I’ve gone through, I said, Oh, that was probably because I was a woman. But at the time I never thought about it that way. I never I’ve never seen the limitation. I just again, because of this way, I just went for it. Right? So I remember once I was asked if I had got the job because I had I had had something with the practice owner and I thought, What? And then, you know, and then the next thing that person said, well, you know, as a woman. And I thought, that’s a strange comment’s make. And now looking back, I said, Wow, a lot of people thought that way. But because you’re a woman, clearly you have less power and you’re not as capable as doing as doing things. In Spain, for example, male doctors are more popular than female doctors because it is a very sexist country when it comes to that. So not now. Things have changed, but, you know, the older generation, they’d rather be seen by a man, by a woman. So so I guess, yeah, it’s everywhere. It’s just that I’ve never thought about it that way.

[01:08:53] Rather be seen by an old man in Iran. In Iran, the older your doctor is, the better he is, you know? So like, there are some guys walking around 85 year old doctors, right? People think they’re the best doctors they must be. There’s it’s that that way of thinking. But so you’re saying you’ve never felt the limitation. But looking back on it, there are some comments made or or whatever. But do you see that more as a societal thing or as in dentistry, we have a problem because there is you know, people say the industry, we have a problem with not enough female role models.

[01:09:28] Which might be I think it’s I think probably as a society thing a little bit, not so much in this country that it’s it’s very equal. But definitely when I go to conferences, there are not enough women and I don’t know of it because we’re scared of lecturing or because it’s just don’t call us, you know? But it is true. Like you go to big conferences and it would be one female speaker. And that’s it’s shocking, you know, because I can tell you several now that are amazing and they’re doing fantastic work and, you know, they’re hardly ever invited. So. So yeah, I don’t know what it is. I honestly don’t know what it is. Well, but we make it.

[01:10:05] Does this fewer to pick from.

[01:10:07] This is. But do you think it’s because we’re scared of just putting ourselves out there? Because, for example, for me, it’s been throughout the years that I mean, many times I’ve been asked, why don’t you like Sure, why don’t you do this? I was always like, Oh, I’m not good enough for that. So it was coming from a place of fear.

[01:10:27] By the way, there’s many men also scared of putting themselves out there, too. But but I think you’re right. I think I think there is part of. There are some women who are eminently capable. And, you know, I noticed it. I went to a practice of one of our one of our customers. And in the practice, she was she was very strong. You know, like she said, she was saying exactly what she she she thought I thought, you know, she was she was the boss and she was saying it. And then and then I spoke to her on on the podcast. And I found a much more reserved. Much more reserved. And I wondered whether, number one, is it that it’s a strange situation being on a podcast, Right? Or number two, is there that thing in society or as a as a woman, you feel in society that you can’t be loud and out of what’s the word like? Not out of control, but, you know, like stand out outside your box, you know? But I’ve always noticed you’ve never really had that issue. But I’m I’m interested that you’re saying you do feel that and you haven’t lectured because of it. It’s interesting.

[01:11:33] Yeah. When it comes to lecturing. Yeah. When it comes to work. I’ve never had fear of being a woman at all. But when it comes to being in a public where where people can can judge. Yes. Yes. Not because I’m a woman, but clearly because it’s because it’s me that is scared of doing that, because I always feel like, oh my God, they’re going to say this. They’re going to say that, which is a silly thing because, you know, no one’s perfect in this world.

[01:11:58] So when I think about myself or my wife in a social setting, she’s 100 times more capable than I am. You know, I’m really socially like. Like if we go to a dinner party or something, I’m a little bit awkward. I’m very shy. Very, very, very shy. And she’s not she’s she’s she’s very strong, you know? And what she’ll do is she’ll find the one person in the room who isn’t talking to anyone and go and talk to that person and, you know, be very nice and understand everyone. And but then if you ask her to stand on a stage and talk, you might as well ask her to do something, you know, to her. That’s the most difficult thing in the world. And I wonder if I tell her if that’s a man woman thing or what. You know, by the way, I don’t like standing on stage. I like this format because I don’t have to be seen. You know.

[01:12:51] You can hide.

[01:12:52] I can hide. So tell me this, Sandra, if someone wants to download your course. How does that work? Where do I get. Let’s say I want it. What do I do?

[01:13:02] Go to the head. Yes. Veneer veneer school. That’s where all the modules are. Is there a taster.

[01:13:12] Of it somewhere? Like if you want to taste it before you buy it.

[01:13:15] On my Instagram, which is at Sandra Briggs. Well, there are loads of videos of like little I think there was one today about preparation. So yeah, a lot of a lot of videos where you can see the formats. It’s an interesting format because it’s a bit like a movie, you know? So it’s it’s nice to show it. They did a great job. They really did. And the patient was was amazing because, you know, it’s not easy to be there hours and hours of recording and the mouth open and then the rubber dam. I mean, you know, because we did everything under Rubber Dam as well. And then we did like a bonus of mini rubber dam course with the course. So she was the one that I picked to do everything. So I have a funny thing halfway through the fit isolated every single tooth. And she’s a makeup artist and she says, You know what? I have a client that really needs a makeup. Can I can I go? I said, You must be joking, Right? And this is 9:00 PM on a Sunday and No, but what do you mean you could go? She’s like, Oh, but it’s I can’t say no to the job. So I numbed her, removed everything that you know how much it takes to rub a dam? Everything. She went to Knightsbridge, to the Mandarin Oriental to do her stuff. Then I said, okay, let me order some, some food for for the camera crew and stuff. And she came back and we finished. So it was like, Wow, seriously, after we put there. Yeah.

[01:14:52] I’m going, I’m going to wrap it up soon. Sandra But we always have a dark part of this podcast, and it goes around the question of biggest mistakes.

[01:15:04] In dentistry, the biggest mistakes that I’ve done, like.

[01:15:08] It can be clinical, it can be tactical, it can be management, or ideally something I’m going to give people, something people can learn.

[01:15:15] From. Yes, clinical. Not checking on a full composite case like veneered composite veneers. Not checking what my nurse was given to me. The shade. So I did a bit of mismatch.

[01:15:34] Different colours on different teeth.

[01:15:36] Colours and different teeth.

[01:15:38] That was only realised after he’d finished everything, right?

[01:15:42] Yes. I said, Wait a minute. That was like, Whoa! Once and no, never again.

[01:15:50] What did you do? Repeat the work.

[01:15:53] I couldn’t because it was already so many hours in. So I called. I called the patient to come back.

[01:15:58] And removed it all, removed the bits you had to remove, I guess.

[01:16:01] Because it was it was this bad. It was like B one against a two, you know, a two or three. It was like, really? No, it was.

[01:16:11] Obvious when you told the patient, when you when you told the patient what had happened.

[01:16:17] You know, the patient might not even realise. That’s the funny thing.

[01:16:21] Yeah.

[01:16:22] Probably the following day. But there she was like, Oh, yeah, I can see, I can see. But it was so late as well that she was like, It’s okay. They look beautiful. And I’m like, Yeah, the wrong colour situation when you might not be. Thank God the essentials are the same. Uh huh. Get that wrong. It was lateral, pre molar and then canine premotor as well. Yeah.

[01:16:50] And the patient was understanding.

[01:16:52] Yes. Yes. And I said I didn’t check. I must. We must have grown out of this, and I’m so sorry.

[01:16:59] So the.

[01:17:01] Thing.

[01:17:02] I’m interested, if you’ve got a story where the patient wasn’t understanding, even if the mistake was a smaller mistake, did you have any time like that?

[01:17:09] I’ve had. And now I’ve learned from this. Whenever you do a veneer case, given the expectation that it was, it was always going to be perfect in the fit. Not saying, listen, this can go wrong several times. It’s like a central right. This can go wrong several times. Many times is the most difficult truth of the matter. You have to put it on the really negative side. And if we’re so, so lucky than a second next appointment, everything’s perfect. Then we’ll fit. But it’s unlikely that that happens. That’s my talk now. My talk back then was like, Oh yeah, two weeks of fits and it was sedation case. None of the patient remove everything. Nothing fits it. Nothing fits it. Because when I took the impression silicone impression, the patient opened a little bit and then I, you know, and then I positioned it again. So obviously it wasn’t my fault. They work on a model that had a different like the reference was completely different. Not one that was like that patient. So my patient today, what he was yeah, imagine sedation and the whole trauma of having every single tooth removed, temporary removed and yeah, that was Yeah.

[01:18:25] Was he not understanding why he was sedated. So you couldn’t really argue.

[01:18:29] No. But when he, when he obviously has sedation and he’s like what is this? I had documented everything. What happened. He was like, what connections At the time he was was a CEO of one of these big supermarket chains. He was not having it. So he had very limited time. And so.

[01:18:51] What happened?

[01:18:52] He well, I took everything, all the screams and all the nastiness. And then I said, and we have to we have to redo it. I’m really sorry, but, you know. Did you like the colour?

[01:19:11] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

[01:19:26] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.