In part two of Payman’s conversation with George Pynadath last week, George described the unique screening process he uses to assess patients’ suitability for complex implant procedures.

This week, George reveals how the evaluation helped him during a black-box moment.

George also talks about his involvement with the Association of Dental Implantology (ADI), lets us in on his closely-held spiritual beliefs, and much more. 



In This Episode

00.30 – Blackbox thinking

12.15 – ADI involvement

20.17 – Being a podcast guest

22.19 – Religion and spirituality

28.33 – Kerala and India

33.33 – Fantasy dinner party

41.16 – Last days and legacy


About George Pynadath

Pynadath George BDS, MFDS RCPS, MSc Rest Dent, MSc Imp Dent, graduated from Liverpool Dentistry School. He later returned to teach at the school as a part-time lecturer in restorative and implant dentistry.

He currently practices as a peripatetic clinician in clinics across the UK. He is a prolific mentor in implants and contributed to developing the Royal College of Surgeons’ Advanced General Dental Surgeon qualification.

George is currently treasurer of the Association of Dental Implantology.

Don’t take the shortcut in life. Stay pushing yourself. Take the long journey. Because it’s about the journey. Of course, the destination is important. You know, what you’re trying to achieve is important. But don’t try and take the shortcut. You know, do things properly. Do things that will challenge you because that’s how you grow and that’s how you become better. Getting to the end point is not how you’ve got better. It’s that whole journey, the challenges, the tests. That’s how you get better.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Let’s get let’s get to darker moments.

Now, here we go.

Normally we get to the normally get to them a bit earlier on this podcast, but someone was telling me, I’ve met someone on the weekend that you really enjoy that bit with the darker moments. Yeah. And I kind of do, if I’m being honest, to.

Talk to you. Payman You got really.

Enjoyed for sure. Tell me. I mean, it’s important we talk about them, right? We learn, we learn from them, and we don’t talk about them enough in medicine or dentistry mistakes. Tell me about mistakes you’ve made. It could be an oh, shit moment. It could be a treatment planning mistake. It could be a patient who lost their confidence. And you know that that sort of patient management mistake. Tell me something about mistakes. You must have had your fair share. Doing the kind of work you’re doing.

To be honest, I’ve had that many mistakes during my career. It’s really difficult for me to point out which one would be, you know, the most relevant one at this stage. You know.

Some something people can learn from.

Oh, I’ve got Payman honesty. I have that many and everyone can learn from. And that is the best way of learning, isn’t it? People talk about learning from your mistakes, but actually that’s not the best way. The best way of learning is from learning from other people’s mistakes. I mean, even from maybe six months ago, six months ago. So this is more of a recent mistake. I had a patient travel up quite a long distance from Ipswich, came up with their dentist, the dentist came with their nurse. The patient’s quite medically compromised. They’re on, I think, three different types of chemotherapeutic drugs, so quite hardcore drugs. So we had to liaise with the medics to to time her surgery to make sure she’s off the drugs for a certain period before it gets really bad and then put her back on it. So everything had to be timed really well with sedating her. And she has a very, very atrophic mandible. So like very, very atrophic. So she had seen a number of people who said no to her that they wouldn’t treat her. She had something like six mils in heights of bone, so really quite thin. So that’s thinner than a pencil and about the same amount in width bucko, lingual. So I’m doing the surgery and it’s quite stressful surgery of course, because there’s a high risk of mandible fracture. And this lady is aware of the risks and there’s also risks of bleeding, risk of numbness, because the nerves on the on the bony crest and everything’s going well.

And then I can’t remember what happened. I can’t remember what happened. But as I was placing this implant because it was quite high stress and I wanted to be in and out with this case, I’d put the implants in for implants were going in. You know, this is the last implant. I was getting really happy because I knew she’d have fixed teeth and she’s not had fixed teeth in the past. I think 25 years she’s not had any fixed teeth. She’s not been able to eat any solid food. And I put the implant in the carrier and I go to put the implant into the hole that I’d made. And I had it changed the settings on my motor. So the implant went in at the same speed as I as I was drilling the bone, which is something like 1200. And it’s meant to, it’s meant to go in at 30. So you can understand the difference in ratio. Yeah. And the implant went in. I couldn’t then leave it there because it went in too deep and half of the implant was sticking out under her jaw. So it had gone through the mandible because there was at least six mils in high anyway, and the top of the implant was at the was at the lower border of the mandible.

Goodness. So I and it’s an implant that you can’t reverse out because it’s kind of a press fit. I couldn’t get the carrier on to reverse that out. It’s stuck there. So I’m in this predicament. I can’t leave it there because it’s sticking out of her lower jaw. It’s sticking out of her chin. So I then have to well, I didn’t know what to do. I was I was in a oh shit moment type thing. And I was really quite stressed about it. And I’ve not been that stressed in a hell of a long time. And I do, as you know, I do quite high risk work and I’m here, there and everywhere in in the jaw’s upper and lower. But I was really stressed in that case and I had no choice but to remove bone around this implant, which then meant a high risk of mandible fracture. I had my plating kit there. So just in case, if the mandible fractured, I could plate it together. But that’s not ideal because it’s an atrophic mandible and it’s hard to to plate together if it fractures. So it’s just really, really stressful and all because I did it check the motor settings as I was putting the implant in. It’s just one of those off key moments, you know, that happened and that was only six months ago, you know. But anyway.

When you drilled, drilled around it, you drilled around it and you managed to get some sort of purchase on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, you know, you have to then expose the lower board of the mandible and put an instrument up to try and push it upwards as you’re trying to pull it out at the same time. So it was just, it was just high stress which could have been avoided. And actually, you know, that’s more of a recent thing. There’s been you know, there’s been other, you know, kind of cases where I’ve had significant bleeds. You know, I’ve had some really big bleed. That have happened. You know, that’s been hard to stop because, you know, how do you stop a bleed once it’s happened? You try and litigate it, you try and cauterise it, but it’s spraying out so quickly that it’s hard to like, you know, close it off or cauterise it or whatever. I’ve had some really. I’ve also had some stressful moments in GI during my training where I got really well with one of my trainers. We’ve had some high risk cases coming into into hospital. And again, they’re coming into hospital because they’re high risk cases, but you don’t realise exactly how high risk they are until you’re actually doing it. But yeah, I’ve had, I’ve had all kinds of things happen. Um, but that’s the most.

When something goes wrong like that. A lot of times you rely on your relationship with the patient to get you out of that, to say, you know, put your hands up. Say, Look, something’s gone wrong. I’ve done my best. You haven’t got a relationship. You haven’t got a relationship with these patients. I do pay. How do you.

Manage? I do because I’ve already screened them to make sure that they’re reasonable people and they understand the complexity and nature of the work that we’re doing.

Have they? That they’ve never met you before? You’ve done the work?

No, but it’s really quite interesting, actually. Even today, I’ve had I’ve had a case referred to me where this lady had gone around all the houses. She’s got all these failing implants and she’s high risk of mandible fracture. Again, it’s an Atrophic case. She’s got six implants all done in India. They’ve been there for 15 years, 20 years. They’ve all they’ve lost all the bone around them. And just taking the implants out is high risk. But she’s got to see that many people who have all said no and my name has popped up and then her I think her daughter is a doctor and she’s friends with some implant dentists who have also mentioned my name. So she’s come to to see this mentee of mine, knowing that she’ll see my mentee and knowing that I’ll be the one doing it. So even though I’ve not met her, she she’s aware of who I am because, you know, word kind of gets around because not many people want to do these kind of cases, which are very high risk. So I’ve already built up a relationship, not not a relationship, but there’s.

Already I get it. I get it.

And then when I do meet that patient, you know, I’m I’m a very frank kind of person. I’m very, very frank. I’m sometimes people may think I’m quite brash and abrupt, but with this type of work, I can’t I can’t afford to be cotton wool knowing that the procedure, you know, I have to be quite direct with patients. And I think that comes across as experience and patients appreciate that.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree that you can’t. I think what you meant, you can’t sugarcoat it. Right. It’s, it’s kind of, it’s yeah, it’s like it’s a big surgical procedure, you know, you’re going through that story. Just stress the hell out of me. Yeah.

And you know what, Payman? Because you ask me. Because you asked me to repeat that story like the stress was coming.

Back to me.

Yeah, I did. Yeah. I was like, Jesus Christ, Why did I? You know, because you start thinking because a lot. You have to remember a lot of these patients have nowhere to go because a lot of people don’t want to touch them or treat them. So they’re reaching out to me, knowing that, you know, I’ve said yes to them and there’s a kind of a light at the end of the tunnel. And I, of all people, want the treatment to go as smoothly as possible with no complications at all, you know, So I’m then doing these kind of treatments. And sometimes when these things happen, I think, why the hell am I doing this work for? You know, I could just say no to the patient. They can go away with a denture. It’s not my problem. But I’m legitimately out there, genuinely out there to try and help patients and help solve their problems, which is their quality of life. You know, people forget that we provide implants. Well, especially this level of implants, because, you know, patients have lost their quality of life. They’re not coming to see me because they want nice, gleaming white teeth that Robbie does or Kailash does or, you know, these lovely, you know, the lovely work that these guys do. They’re coming to see me because they can’t eat, they can’t speak, you know, which also means they can’t walk out of their house and go for a swim because their teeth won’t stay in, you know. So they just want quality of life back and a little bit of normality. And it’s disappointing for me when things like that happen.

I was I was listening to Laura Horton. You’re aware of what you must be. She’s like a TCO trainer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On a different on a different podcast, on Sandeep podcast. And, and she was saying, you know, that, that getting through when you train a TKO getting through the idea that you know their teeth but if it’s. Life changing dentistry like the stuff you’re doing, then you’re talking about, like you say, someone being able to eat, someone being able to kiss, to fall in love. You know, these are these are really super important things, right? Yeah. And to get that through to the to the team here that we are, we’re providing that sort of service is not just a filling or a a bleaching or my world. You know, It’s amazing. It’s amazing stuff.

Yeah, that is it. It’s. It’s the whole face. It’s not just their teeth, it’s the whole face. And and to be fair, that’s the reason why I do this work. It’s so rewarding. It’s so fulfilling.

But I might be wrong about this year because we don’t really know each other. We’ve met here for the first time. Yeah, but you don’t strike me as the type of guy who’s up for sitting around in meetings on boards of of stuff. And yet you are treasurer of the HDI. Or am I wrong about that?

You’re right. Yeah, you are right. You really have done your research about my background. But yeah, no, that’s right. I’ve so it’s quite interesting isn’t it, because you mentioned that Amit Patel So I had never met Amit Patel before and we used to clash, not clash but you know, you know, I told you seven, eight years ago I was a little bit more abrupt on social media.

Social media has a way of doing that to people.

Yeah, it does. It does. But to be fair though, payment, I can be quite abrupt in real life as well. I let people know my thoughts and my feelings. I don’t shy away from that. So so. So Amit Patel is also, I think, quite a similar personality sometimes. But and we both started on the ADI together and it’s quite unusual because we were both also, you know, normally you have to get elected onto the ADI, but we were both invited onto the ADI. The Northwest Study Club kind of went downhill a little bit. So, you know, I was asked to come on board with the ADI to try and bring up the membership in the Northwest. And we did really well, actually. And I think my first my first speaker was actually Zaki, and Zaki is now president elect. After I’m.

About to be.

President. Zaki about to be president, yeah. And Zaki literally sold out the tickets and that that first event, we didn’t even have room for standing I think from memory we had just over 90, 90 people turn up and it was just a successful after afterwards I’ve got some really good guys and girls to come in and speak. And then over the years I’ve kind of moved up a little bit in the ADI where I was the the study club director, and then I became Treasurer and I’ve been treasurer now for I think four years I’ve been Treasurer.

So I.

Was a Steve.

Jones, which was a big job at the ADI because I got a lot of money. It’s got, it’s got that reputation as a very rich organisation.

Payman I get the feeling that you’re kind of saying, why are you the Treasurer? You don’t really suit it and you’re.

Probably right, I’ll say.

I’m more of a clinician on. I know you know what, you’re absolutely right. But actually what, what a lot of people don’t know when it comes to the ADI is the ADI and all the members of the board, which include study club directors, includes the presidents, the past president, the president elect, the treasurer, the academic rep. We’re all equal in voice and actually the work we do. Yes, there’s a certain level of, you know, accountancy and treasurer work that I have to do. But actually, you know, we all work together as a team. All the decisions that we make, not everything obviously, but the vast majority of decisions we make are made as a team. It’s a team effort. Even even Amit right now is the President. Yes, he’s the president, but actually he’s the spokesperson. All that is, all the decisions we make are made as a team, as a and we’re making those decisions as a team on behalf of our membership. It’s not me just doing it. It’s not just doing it. It’s not Zaki. Just all of us are working together. It’s not always smooth sailing, of course, because we’re all of certain personalities, you know, and we all will agree on things and we’ll all disagree with things. And that’s the nature of the beast, really, isn’t it? But generally, I think, you know, we’ve done really well when it comes to the ADR. I mean, our last masterclass for AM, it ran I can’t remember the figures, but it was something ridiculous. You know, I think almost doubled to to what we had in the previous masterclass. And I think the HDI has gone from strength to strength. And I think once Zacky takes over from Amit’s presidency, it’s going to just keep going up. You know, I think it’s just going to keep going onwards and upwards, really.

I want to turn up. To one of the events because they look so lavish. They are.

They are lavish. Yeah. It’s great. You know what? Actually pay what you should. It’s not you know, it’s not just for implant dentists. I think it’s for all dentists who want to just, you.

Know, party guys to.

It’s not just for it’s not just for parties. Definitely not for parties. You know, I can I can honestly say hand on my heart the speakers, we get that come to our master classes and conferences. There are some, you know, really shit hot world class speakers that are that are around. You know, I’m really quite proud to to see some of the names that turn up to to the events. And actually that’s not just the international stuff. Even our members forum, you know, the members forum for the Adye where we get our, our members from the UK who want to provide a lecture on a certain topic. Some of the lectures that come about on the members forum are so thought provoking. You know, it’s, it’s so interesting and it’s great watching our kind of local, local people like step on stage and present their work. It’s amazing, you know, it’s but yeah, the parties are pretty good as well and you should come just for the parties as well. It’s pretty cool.

Are you planning I’m getting from this sort of presidential tone that you’re putting out now that are you planning to be a president to yourself as well? Is it like a pathway that the Treasurer then becomes the elect and then becomes is that think?

I think I know it’s not.

Are you presidential? Are you president quality by quality? Is it something you want to be the president?

That’s a that’s a that’s that’s a quite a pertinent question, really. I suppose it’s quite a deep, deep question. And I suppose I’ll be I’ll be quite frank. I think it’s not always the best position. I think sometimes it’s a little bit of a poison chalice being the president. But actually, yes, it’s quite a prominent role. It’s quite a prominent title. And for anyone passionate about implant ology and especially passionate about the Adeyeye, I think that’s always going to be, I suppose, on your horizon a little bit. You know, if I if I didn’t become if I didn’t become president, you know, I’m still quite happy knowing that I’ve made a certain contribution to the organisation, I’ve made a contribution to the work we’ve done as, as part of the ADEYEYE as a group. I’m quite happy for the contribution that I’ve made with the work we’ve done in conjunction with C.G. Dent, which was the old FDP and our collaboration with the one. Nelson Yes, that’s right, Yeah. Yeah. So we teamed up with them for some for some funding. You know, you mentioned mentoring, mentoring. We teamed up with them for the new mentoring guidelines for implant ology. So that’s I think that was their first guidelines that they set as part of the new organisation of stents leaving for VDP in the past. So yeah, I think I think, you know, I’m quite happy with the work that I’ve done so far. I’ll be happier if I can get to continue with the work, I think. But yeah, it’s not a politically worded good enough statement on, on, on. In answer to your question that I.

Know you you, you’ve certainly got the political side down my sleeve. It it’s good to see that. It’s good to see you.

You know it’s funny payment because I actually rang up am it before I came on this podcast and I was like it you’ve done this podcast. I’ve listened to your podcast like did they, did they tell you the questions they’re going to ask you in advance or or did they just, you know, And he’s like, No, no, no, no. Because I obviously, I’ve done podcasts before and I get the questions in advance and I was like, okay, that’s fine. But was there any controversial questions like, Do I need to know anything in advance because I’m rubbish at thinking off the cuff. I’m quite a.


Basic minded person. I can’t think of the cuff.

You know what it is? You know what it is. Yet, you know what’s amazing about podcasts is that there’s a massive appetite for real talk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re cutting people off. God, that’s what you do. That’s. People want to see it.

Yeah, but real talk. You know, I had a conversation with Kailash last weekend, two weekends ago at the BCD, and it might have been a conversation that me and Kailash would have had over a beer, and it happened to be recorded, You know, real talk. Not. No, not agenda talk, not preplanned, not, you know, just just comment. And there’s a massive appetite for that. And, you know, the audience who listen to this need to listen to this ahead of. I don’t know. It’s not. It’s not. We’re not even in competition with other Dental stuff. We’re in competition with media, you know, with and, you know, real talk is is where it’s at at the moment. You know, that’s why we try not to give the questions out in advance, because I wouldn’t want it to be real, you know?

You know, I completely get that. And actually, if you really wanted that, then I should have had a couple of pints before this podcast that would have really got me settled off. But then if that had happened, I probably would have got a million phone calls after this podcast saying.

What the fuck have you.

Speak like, you know, because I’ll just say as it is a little bit, um, so it’s a bit of a balance, isn’t it, really? It’s a bit of a balance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re coming to the end of the time. I’m quite interested in what you said about wanting to be a priest. Now, where are you now? With your. I am. I am interested that. Where. Where are you now in your belief system? I mean, as a 18 year old, you were there. Where are you now with that.

Oh, that’s. Yeah. So I suppose, you know, everything changes in life, isn’t it? Outlooks and beliefs and thoughts kind of change in life. So where I am now is a very, very different place from where I was as someone in my late teens and early twenties, you know, late teens. I was actually quite deep, early twenties. I really wasn’t because I was out there just drinking away. You know, most of my time spent at undergraduate university was spent drinking and also organising events to drink in, um, you know, in Liverpool, I think in Liverpool in the early two, thousands had very little hip hop and garage and you know, that type of music. And I’d come from London and I’d come from Cranford, Southall, Hounslow and you know, garage was big back then, so most of my time was organising garage events or hip hop nights and things like that. But now my thoughts into life is very, very different from that. So in terms of religion, I wouldn’t say I’m particularly religious, I would say I’m quite spiritual. If anything, I feel quite sad that people do kind of always want to point out differences between their personal religions as opposed to come together and point out the similarities amongst all the, you know, the world kind of major religions and minor religions, to be honest. So I would say I’m kind of yeah, I’m more spiritual as opposed to religious. You know, you treat people how you want to be treated and you practice your religion in your own personal house and, you know, speak openly about it. I sometimes take offence to people wanting to instil their personal not just religious beliefs but personal beliefs onto me and onto others. But that’s the way of the world, isn’t it? I don’t think I can change that.

So you still believe in God?

Is God the right word? Yeah, I suppose so. If you class God as like a highly I don’t know how many different interpretations of that word God, isn’t it? Um, yes, it’s simple answer. Yes. I still believe in God.

It sounds what you’re saying. I know you said you don’t like the sort of classification of people into different, but you’re sounding more Buddhist than. Then, Christian.

Well, I suppose you could be both, really, isn’t it? There’s nothing to stop you from being Buddhist and Christian. So I’ve got a strong respect for Buddhism and Buddha and his thoughts, and I would actually class myself as a potentially Christian and potentially Buddhist because the two aren’t mutually exclusive. You could say you have to remember Payman. So I grew up in India to a certain level and all my family are in India still now. It’s just my my parents and my brother who’s over here and growing up in India is very different from growing up here in the UK And coming from an Indian household is also very, very different. And I’m not talking about British Indians or British Asians, I’m talking about Indian Indians, and especially in South India, and especially more so in Kerala and Tamil Nadu, which is kind of the areas I’m from, where the society is very, very socialist in nature and also in religion. It’s a very, very open and welcoming kind of community. We all have a lot of love for each other. So where we’re from in Kerala, you know, there’s a lot of harmony amongst the, the main religious groups, which are the Christians, the Muslims, the Hindus and the Jains. We all get on really well with each other. We all celebrate each other’s kind of festivals. And, you know, we all, we all literally gel together and, and I think that’s very different from the north because the north of India had a very different history where they had various invasions from different areas of the world. And so it was always constantly in, I suppose, you know, a bit of a battle.

And those kind of wars came about with religious aspects to it as well. So there’s a certain level of, you know, disharmony in the north, and that’s very, very different in the south. You know, actually the south, you have to remember India was made as a country by the British. It was a very different country before. It was essentially princely states. And actually the South, the south have a has a very different culture, a very different history, a very different language and outlook on things to the north. So my upbringing in the south of India kind of moulded me to to who I am now. So my uncle, for example, my mum’s brother is an archbishop in the Orthodox Church and he holds quite a senior position on the World Council of Churches. So he regularly meets the Pope and so on. But his doctoral thesis was on the Bhagavad Gita, which is one of the Hindu holy, holy scripts. And actually if you speak to him again, he’s very, very spiritual and religious. And his outlook on the various religions out there, you know, coming as a scholar is very, very open compared to some of the other kind of, I suppose, priests. And I’m not when I say priest, I don’t mean just Christian priests, but, you know, priests from various religious clerics, from the various different faiths that may have a little bit more of a closed mind when it comes to other religions. So, yeah, my my outlook is very different.

Kerala sounds like a super interesting place. I’ve never been. But, you know, you hear about the female literacy rate a lot. You. Yeah, the food. I’d really love to go a couple of times but Kerala sounds yet different again because the Kerala I’ve spoken to really really point that out to me. Yeah.

Like yeah, it’s not like Goa Payman is.

Nothing like Goa.

Goa is a Goa is like comparing London and like a bar in London. And your local pub is like when you’re comparing Goa and Kerala because Goa, you have to remember it’s just a tourist place. It’s not really India, you know. Of course there’s some actual Indian places around there, but most people go to Goa as a tourist place and it’s nothing like India and Kerala, you know? And if you speak to most Malay allies, we’re quite strong in our opinion of Kerala and how great it is and how we’d all like to go back because it really is that amazing. And it really is honestly, you know, I look back at how lucky we are as a society in Kerala and that’s mainly because we are a little bit more socialist. We’re not hardcore communists, we’re a bit socialist, we are a little bit more harmonious amongst our religions. And people just gel, you know, people get on with each other and it works really well. And it’s not just literacy. We’ve got, you know, comparable figures of quality of life. The West, as well as not just quality of life, but quality of death, which is also quite an important factor. We’ve got similar figures to health care in the West. You know, so there’s a lot of positives when it comes to care. And you know, when you land in Canberra, everything’s flipping green. You know, there’s that much greenery out there and you know, it’s just it’s astounding. And I love visiting that place. You know, it’s it’s an amazing it’s it really is a home from home for me.

I hope I don’t become one of the, you know, one of those silly tourists who comes and ruins it for you because it’s suddenly becoming a more popular place on the on the there’s people going to Kerala a lot these days. Yeah. But it is on my list to tell you it’s on my list to go.

You know, funnily enough, it’s not the tourist from outside of India. It’s the it’s the tourists from within India that are coming to Kerala the most. Yeah, the North Indians and people from elsewhere. You know, when I was growing up, we would never, ever see a Sikh person ever. And if he did see a Sikh person, a sick person from the north, everyone would stop and just stare at them in Kerala. And now, you know, it’s an every when I go back, you know, it’s just a it’s an everyday occurrence. Same with people from Afro-Caribbean or African backgrounds. You know, you wouldn’t often see people from that background. And same with people from a Caucasian background. You wouldn’t see them that often in Kerala and all these different people, If you did see them back in the day, everyone would stop and just look because they’re just never seen someone who was Sikh or see someone who was of a white background or see someone from a black background. You know, it was just a different world. It’s completely different now. Of course, it’s you know, the worlds are oyster really, isn’t it?

It’s on the tourist map now. You know, you just hear of people going to Kerala. It’s it’s a thing I’ve heard several times from different people. It’s anything really when at the end we are. Yeah, yeah, I know. My, my designer, he, he just came back from Kerala, not just a year ago. He came back and loved it, adored it, and he was telling me to go for sure.

You know, my. My heart. My heart does get a little bit sad when when I hear that purely because, you know, people are just. Yeah, exactly. It’s my secret. Anybody know? You know, it’s not that. It’s only because, you know, sometimes tourism is great for the for the state and for the local population. And, you know, it brings up the economy. But but there’s also negatives when it comes to with tourism. And you certainly do see the negatives. So, you know, as I was saying, Kerala was always, you know, culturally such a harmonious place. And now, you know, we’re seeing, you know, the influence from certain Middle Eastern countries with the local Muslims. We’re seeing certain influence from the more hardline Hindus coming in to Kerala, and we’re seeing influences from the Western Christians coming in, the hardcore Western Christians coming in. And that, you know, that doesn’t help necessarily, but you can start.

To see this. These societies are a delicate balance. You can mess that up for sure. There’s no doubt about that. Let’s get to our final questions. With this one. I want to ask a third one.

Oh, really?

Yes. Let’s. Let’s start. Let’s start. Well, let’s start with your with your fancy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? Yeah. Who would you have?

So I’ve had this question being asked before, and it’s really interesting. Dead or alive, who would I have? And I’ll be honest, if I had if if, if I could have one wish and I would honestly want. And it’s not three people, unfortunately, but I would want a dinner party with my family. That’s what I’d want. So you’re saying.

Your family, your wife and kids?

Wife, Kids, Mum, dad, brother, his kids and wife. But obviously that’s not three people and that’s not the answer you want. So if you’re asking.

Yeah. Yeah.

If you ask me about individual personalities of the world, who would I have? That’s a you know, if you’re asking specifically for that, probably the, the three people I would choose would be Bruce Lee, number one. I think Bruce Lee was an amazing person individual, and he was unfortunately short lived, but he was so ahead of his time as a human, not just in terms of martial arts. I know people know him as a martial artist, but also as a philosopher. He was he’s an amazing philosopher. You know, he was well ahead of his time when it comes to a lot of things, martial arts, philosophy, you know, ways.

Of martial arts yourself.

Yeah, I’ve done a little bit. I’ve done, um, I’ve done quite a bit, actually. Not a little bit. I’ve done quite a bit. So, yeah, Bruce Lee was a big influence on me on that. And, and he moulded my life in a lot of ways. So. Bruce Lee Number one, I’d probably then say because it has to be religion, as I mentioned of, you know, I was into religion, but I’d have to be Jesus number two just to just to know, you know, if if he was legit or not, you know. Yeah. You know, you know what payment. It’s interesting you mentioned Buddha. Did you know that there’s a theory? I mean, I don’t know if you’ve if you know much about the Bible, but, you know, in the Bible, the New Testament, you know, we have stories about Jesus’s birth and then there’s a there’s a massive gap in his timeline where the next kind of stories or recordings of him are when he’s around 33 years of age. So mid thirties, early thirties. So he’s kind of gone from childhood, disappeared and then come back as an adult. And there’s a lot of theory. The theory is he went to Asia during this period and he encountered Buddha and Buddhist teachings and then he came back to the Middle East and started preaching.

And it’s.


Similar. I have heard that before.

You’ve heard that right?

I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that from Ahmadi Muslims saying that they believe Jesus went to India. And and I know there’s definitely a connection between the two Buddhism and Christianity. I think you know about all these religions generally. Well, not generally, but religions. There’s a lot of sort of borrowing from each other. I don’t mean I don’t mean necessarily I’m not talking. Yeah, but I’m not talking only about, oh, you know, treat others as you would like to be treated like that. Those obvious rules of life that are sort of successful ways of living. But but you know how religions build on top of each other. Yeah. I don’t know that I saw film. Maybe it was rubbish, but it was a film called Zeitgeist.

Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah, it was talking. Have you seen it? Yeah, it was talking about how Christianity was the last of like 40 other religions that came before it, that started off as stories about the stars and, you know, the three Kings with these three stars that would go over and then the Christ gets comes back from the dead. And, you know, you know, there’s a lot of influences between religions. I do get that.

Well, it’s for those reasons. It’s for those reasons. I’d like to clarify with speaking to Jesus exactly.

Whether he’s legit or not.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And and then the last one, the last one is probably a little bit unusual, but it’s it’s actually a guy called Gamma is a guy called the Great Gamma, or people will know him as the great Gamma. But Gamma but he’s actually a wrestler from well, as I said earlier on, you know, India-Pakistan was only made about from the 1940s, but he was born from the Punjab region, which is, you know, at the time not part of India or Pakistan. I think he he then migrated to Pakistan. I don’t think I know he migrated to Pakistan. So he was a muslim from Hindustan from back in the day before it separated to India and Pakistan. And he was probably considered even now, one of the world’s best wrestlers, well ahead of his time. I think he was born in 1908, sorry, 1870 something, and he died in 1960 something. I think he died when he was 82 or something like that. But again. An amazing martial artist wrestler. You know, he travelled the world, even even from the 19 tens onward to test himself. And that’s what I admire about him. He wasn’t satisfied with testing his own ability in India at the time, which was a massive, massive country. You know, it was Pakistan, Bangladesh and India to what we consider now. But he wanted to travel the world and truly test his ability. And that’s that’s awe inspiring, especially from back then. And he was undefeated for, I think, 50 odd years, you know, going from all different countries, from America to Europe to Asia. You know, just one random guy from a village in India who tested himself out. That was a true test of his ability. So I’d love to meet him.

I really admire looking at pictures of him.

Very. He’s a very impressive guy to.

It’s actually a familiar image. I’ve seen that image before. But it says it says on Wikipedia, Bruce Lee was an avid follower of his.

Yep. Yep. So Bruce Lee copied, not copied. Bruce Lee followed his training regimes because he followed his wrestling training because, again, Bruce Lee learned from the best, briefly learned boxing from Muhammad Ali, you know, wrestling from the Great Gummer and a whole bunch of people. You know, Bruce Lee was really ahead of his time when it came to mixed martial arts. But yeah, Bruce Lee followed great government. But also what people don’t know about the great Gama is he was one of the few, not few there were there were loads, but he was one of those Muslims who also helped hide Hindus and smuggled Hindus back into India during the partition partition. And he saved. Yeah, during the partition. Yeah. So he saved a lot of lives back then. So, you know.

And it’s amazing. Amazing. It’s amazing to think that someone like Bruce Lee was taking influences from a wrestler born in 1870 in India. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing.

Yeah. Amazing story. Great. Gummer. Yeah.

Yeah. So those are my people.

Those are my three guys.

Amazing, amazing, amazing dinner party, those two martial artists and Jesus.

Yeah. A bit of a spectrum from philosophy to martial arts, really, isn’t it? Yeah.

Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right. Let’s, let’s, let’s ask about your perhaps famous deathbed question.

That question. Jesus Christ.

You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest family, friends, whoever around you who have hopefully they’re all old by then was three pieces of advice you would give to you, to everyone, to to them and to the world.

So the three pieces of advice that I would give, it’s difficult question really, isn’t it? Because there’s loads of things you can give. But I would probably say.


Why is that? Well, actually going back to the great karma where you push yourself and really challenge yourself and do things that you may not always feel comfortable doing, or even actually you may feel fearful in doing, keep pushing. So whether that’s work related or, you know, physical exercise related or even mental health related to keep pushing yourself. So that’s in all aspects of life. You just keep pushing, keep challenging yourself. I wrote.

I did.

A post about that recently. Yeah. Get out of your comfort zone. That’s exactly it. Get out of your comfort zone, because that’s what makes you grow. When you get out of your comfort zone, you grow by getting out of that comfort zone.

So true.

So. So that’s one advice. I wrote a post about that. Not not maybe as specific as about that, but I went to see Black Panther two, Wakanda forever, and the main actor from the Black Panther. He wrote a speech. He made a speech, and he was saying more or less the same thing. You know, don’t take the shortcut in life. Stay pushing yourself. Take the long journey, because it’s about the journey. Of course, the destination is important. You know, what you’re trying to achieve is important, but don’t try and take the shortcut, you know, do things properly, do things that will challenge you because that’s how you grow and that’s how you become better. Getting to the end point is not how you’ve got better. It’s that whole journey, the challenges, the tests. That’s how you get better. So that would be my one. My first advice, I suppose maybe my second piece of advice is maintaining your integrity. So I think when it comes to on your deathbed, people will remember you for your actions, not maybe all your actions, but you know you’ll be remembered for what you’ve done. You know, they’ll remember your name and for your what work you’ve done, whether that’s clinical work within dentistry or whether that’s outside of dentistry. And your integrity will will define what work you do. So and your reputation, of course.

In dentistry integrity is such an interesting thing because, you know, a lot of people, class integrity is what you do when no one else is looking.

And yes.

So in dentistry, no one else is.

Do the right thing.

Most of the time, do the right thing right. You know, it’s very easy to do, not the right thing when no one’s looking. But that’s the difference between integrity and not. So it’s huge for us because no one’s looking most of the time.

Yeah. And you know what? You are right in that payment because I, you know, I do worry sometimes not not just as dentists, but as as as humans, you know, Are we always focussed in doing the right thing? And you’re right. Integrity. That’s such a good way of putting it. It’s what you do when no one’s looking and you’ve got to keep striving for that, keep kind of keep kind of to your to the goodness in your heart. And if you don’t do that, unless you’re really, really evil and there’s something wrong, if you don’t do that, you won’t sleep well. You know, you can’t go to bed. You know, your family will suffer because you won’t be right, because the more wrong things you do that will start to come out in your actions and that will spread to your immediate family, not just other people that aren’t connected to you. So it’s really important that you always stay on the right path and and do the right things in life.

It sounds like you do believe in karma.

Oh, yeah. Massive. Yeah, Yeah, massive, massive believer in that. And that’s whether you call it karma or you reap what you sow or all of that. Yeah, yeah. You do something wrong, you’re gonna, you’re going to get back to that and that again is down to probably because you know, I’m an Indian Christian, so I’ve got my Christian side and I’ve got my Hindu, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, and karma is massive when it comes to Buddhist teachings and Hindu teachings, isn’t it. But yeah, do the right thing and you’ll reap the rewards. So that’s probably my my second.

Get out of your comfort zone. Do the right thing. Yeah. What’s the first?

The third thing is probably find your, find what you love, find your passion, whether that’s dentistry or not, you know. You know, you could be a dentist. You may not like it if you don’t like it, find something else to do. Don’t try and persevere in doing something you don’t like doing. You’re not going to you’re not going to get your rewards out of it, and you will only really become good in what you’re doing if you truly enjoy what you’re doing. You know, we spoke as we were speaking and I said, I currently work because I enjoy what I do. I don’t. To be honest, I think you get to a certain age or stage in your career. I think I can say this quite confidently. All of us at this stage in our career, we don’t really need to work. We certainly don’t really need to work the hours that some of us work. We kind of do that maybe because we like the challenge of our work, we enjoy our work, or there could be other reasons, but I know I don’t work for any other reason other than the fact that I enjoy my work. There’s no other reason. And then because I enjoy my work, everything else will will follow. So I will then do my research. I’ll I’ll enjoy going on implant courses and learning about implant ology, and then my patients will benefit because I really love my work. I’ll always try and do the best I can. So it’s then it then has a snowball effect. So whether that’s dentistry or not. My other my last advice would be do what you really, really enjoy doing, Find your passion and and just focus on it and give it your all.

Slice. One. Slice. Find something you love and get good at it, right? I think you’re right. It goes hand in hand. It goes hand in hand anyway. I’m going to ask you one other question. Who would be your sort of dream guest on this show? Who would you like to see?

Oh, wow. Jesus Christ. I need to stop being blasphemous then. Dream guest on this show. Who would I like.

Or dream cast?

Well, anywhere in the world.

On this show. So this show is called Dental Leaders.

Okay, so, Dental. And obviously you have to be alive, so it’s not hypothetical. Dental. Leaders.

Because I have I had I had my I had my dream guest on.

Who was your dream guest and.


Right. Okay.

I just wanted to I wanted to meet that guy, man.

And why was he your dream guy?

I’ve just been following him for so many years, you know?

But he’s an implant, dude. He’s an implant guy.

Such a. He’s a businessman. All right. So, you know his many things. He’s many things. But it’s such a pioneer in technology. It’s such a pioneer. And at the top of the field for such a long.

Time ahead of the game.

And I’d never. I’d never met him. He was. He was you know, I just watched him from a distance. And he actually when he came when we were actually doing the show face to face before COVID, we would do it in our office. And it was just such for me, it was one of those moments when you meet, you meet your hero.

So I see now that you’ve mentioned it, I can now, yeah, I’ve got a clearer idea. So probably the person that I would. The three people. I’m going to be honest payment and you’re not going to like it because I’m going to say three people. So one of them is Derek Satchell. Have you heard of Derek Satchel?

Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

Yeah. So he’s, you know, the man when it comes to Prosit antics at the Eastman. Yeah. And he’s. He’s someone who I had a number of encounters with. You know, I think.

I think you. Of course.

Thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the first time he looked at my preps, he said, Just quit dentistry and become a hygienist like this. He’s a funny guy. Funny guy. And he’s one of those old school kind of, you know, old school teachers that isn’t shy in just cussing you and take you down a few notches and then bring you back up. So, Derek, Satchel number one, and then probably Mike Wise.

Because I’m amazing.

Because again, I’ve.

Never I’ve tried with.

Him. Well, I’ve never met him, but you know, from a distance I know the guy is obviously well ahead and he just inspires a lot, doesn’t he? And then the last person is Callum Johnson. Have you heard of Callum Johnson? Callum Johnson was the dean of Liverpool Dental School and well, he started off, as I think, Deputy Dean or something like that, or head of head of dental school or something like that. And then he became the dean when we were leaving and he played such a massive influence in my life and I’m sure he knows it because I’ve told him that. And then he became Dean and then became, I think, vice chancellor or something like that. So he just went up the ranks. So he’s a consultant in restorative dentistry and he.

Do you know him well?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Him and his wife, Catherine Fox. Lovely people. They don’t actually live that far.

From going to get him. Get him on my show, man. Get him. Get him on my show.

Did you want me to ask him?


You know, he’s had and I can honestly say this, he’s not just had an influence on my life. You know, he was a dean of Liverpool Dental School for God knows how many years because he was that charismatic. He’s such an affable guy. He’s such a knowledgeable guy. And he’s also straight laced, straight lined when he needs to be as well. He’s someone that I’ve always kind of, you know, looked at from a distance and thought, what a guy. You know, he’s a he’s a real, you know, influential, aspirational type of person to kind of be like. So he’s probably my last person that I would want as a guest on your show. And God knows how many dentists out there and specialists he would have influenced.

Get him, get him for me, man.

Yeah, I’ll I’ll leave my.


I’ll email him. Did did you ask did you ask at Patel did this question who did he say?

No, this is a new this is a new question. You’re the first. I was the new question. I’m going to I’m going to be asking it from now on.

I was going to say I was interested in Patel. Robbie, what did Robbie say? What did Caleb say? I would have been interested in what those guys said.

You’re the first, but that’s good. We’ve done something. We’ve done a first with. With with your podcast, buddy. Thank you so much for for taking the time to do this. I just think it’s hours of your time.

It’s been 2 hours. I can’t believe it’s been 2 hours.

2 hours long form, real conversation, a lot of editing to make it. Yeah. No, no, no. They. Excellent, buddy. I really, really enjoyed that. Thank you so much for doing that.

Cool, man. It’s been really good. Thank you so much. But it’s been an absolute pleasure and honour.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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