It’s Friday night. The big Mini Smile Makeover (MSM) party is in full swing, and Payman is armed with his podcast mic.

Join him for this unique collection of conversations with delegates attending Dipesh Parmar’s legendary composite bonding training course.

Guests discuss life in dentistry, share their insights from the course and reveal what it’s like to train with Dipesh. Stick around until the end to hear a guest appearance from the man himself!       


In This Episode

02.08 – Tuyab Shaujhat

14.23 – Busola Owaru

25.48 – Georgiana Bala

35.51 – Jazz Battu

43.07 – Martina Hodgson

53.58 – Matty Parsons

01.15.43 – Sarah Ansaldo

01.31.28 – Dipesh Parmar

Hi, guys. Payman here. It’s kind of a special episode today. There’s going to be one from many Smile Makeover. That’s the composite Hands-On course that we’ve been doing now for six years with Dipesh Palmer. He has a one of the sort of genius teachers out there. His presentation is just awe inspiring and the system that he’s developed in. You know, it’s a step by step approach that so many people are talking about is he’s really, really taught me loads and loads and loads, which feels weird for someone who’s 15 years younger than me. Many small makers have been something that we’ve been doing now with him for four, four, six, seven years. But obviously we’ve been distributing Cosmoland products and the enamel composites now for around 12 years. So before that we’re working with people like Jason Smith and amongst others. I think you’ll enjoy it. I managed to speak to as many people as I could across two different events. Most of them are delegates who’ve been on the course before and were visiting for a second time to brush up, which is something which we really encourage on that course. It’s a funny one. I love going to this course. It’s very, very tiring for us and for the telecasts, I’m sure. But when I spoke to Dipesh, it was at the end of the day and you can hear the guys and they had spent if, if, if anyone’s ever lectured before, you know, after 40 minute lecture, it’s it’s so draining and, you know, to, to lecture for two whole days with hands on. I take my hat off to, to all the educators out there anyway managed to speak to Matty Parsons who’s one of the demonstrators, and Martina Hodgson who’s been on this podcast before and and several of our delegates who did come for a second time. It’s this it’s a fun event. We do two days and a big, big sort of party in the middle on the middle night on the Friday night. Enjoy.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi, and Prav Solanki.

So I’m here on day one of list Makeover with type show who’s come for the second time. The first time you came were in Newcastle, Newcastle, Newcastle. And how long ago was that?

Oh, that was best part of nearly a year. Well, just. Just yeah, about a year. November last year in Newcastle.

And so. All right. Tell me about what you did after that. Did you start doing some cases?

Yeah, I started off with some really quite simple cases. I also applied it to a lot of just my general dentistry. I had full frontal fillings to do and I found a lot of the principles that Depeche goes through. You can just apply straight off the bat. You don’t have to wait for specific cases. It’s really, really useful in that sense.

Kind of teaches you how to do general dentistry, right? It’s not only for composite.

With exactly the principles you just apply everywhere and anywhere you can find it.

But how far are we taking it sort of thing?

So I started doing six canines of canine from two composite end cases. I’ve got one tomorrow, actually, which is going to show my case of today. But yeah, really, really good. I’m just using all the materials familiarising myself. I’m only a year and a half into my career, so yeah, I’m just looking to push the limits with it. Really.

What kind of practice is it?

Predominately NHS. I do work in a few private practices, which I do apply a lot of emergency dentistry as well. It’s very, very useful if a patient’s chipped front or veneer or something like these and these patients are quite they’ve got very high standards. So you need to do something a little bit more than your basic dentistry to keep them happy.

How did you get the private job.

Have a job? Generally just networking with a lot of people, telling them, I’ve been on a lot of courses such as this course and they were really impressed by that and really.

Was it something you used to get the job?

Yeah, 100%. You have to let them know that you’re willing to learn and you’re always looking to develop further. So they were generally very impressed with that. And they obviously know the patient, they know they know about Enlightened. So yeah.

So but when you say networking, so you’re in an NHS job. Yep. So what did you do? Literally what did you do? Did you turn up to dental events.

And dental events, Congresses, wherever I could, because I’m quite passionate about the industry. Whenever even I’ve got a day off, I don’t feel like it’s work if I’m attending a dental event. Even sometimes something as simple as sending someone a Facebook message, if you’ve seen some good work and going from there or we’re showing interest and yeah, and just kind of went from there and it kind of went from then onwards, there is skills I want to develop, such as photography and these kind of things. But I think first step first is just kind of putting yourself out there, not not being afraid to have a conversation.

And are you building an Instagram?

Yeah, well, I’m trying to. That’s something I need to work on and feel like I probably need to go on a photographer course, but I have started, so I’ll go from there.

Who did the marketing when you when you did your smile maker?

So we from your sales, we got the enlightened whitening, the whole pack, the practice pack. So that started a lot of conversations with patients. One good thing I’ve done, I got my principal to buy me a television into the practice. So I have that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I have a television. I mean, sure camera, but more so. So when the patient sits in the chair, when I need a couple of minutes normally to sort it out and stuff, it’s kind of loophole. There’s a loop of advertisements and just cases of done and I’m just playing and nine out of ten times patients will at least ask me a question about it. And it just goes from there. And it’s all about how you can kind of lead.

The conversation because it’s constantly looping before. Yes, yes, exactly.

I have different different things whitening, even some some of the treatments I don’t do myself, such as Botox, one of the associates do, and kind of look after each other. And I think whatever you put out there in the universe kind of finds its way back to you.

So. So what would you charge now for a composite veneer?

So composite veneer, I’m generally charging between 180 to £240 per veneer, depending on where I am. So it does make a difference. So generally up north, when I work in Leeds, Bradford area, it’s closer to £200. And if I’m working towards London you may be looking close to £300.

And you live where?

Oldham, Manchester.

I live in Oldham, Yeah, but you’re just going to call the whole time.

Of work a little bit between. So I spend most of my life on the 62 working between Leeds, Manchester and Bradford and occasionally I do. Once a week I’m travelling down to London.

So you haven’t even got a job in Oldham? No, that’s crazy.

It’s a hard job to do in your hometown. No pavement. I think everyone will be your mum’s best friend.

I, in a way, your hometown where you really know the people. Yeah. I found this. I did a job in Kent and the boss, he was an experienced guy, was an older guy, but he used to say he thinks the patients. I sometimes. I can’t believe you just said that. But because he was from the area, he got away. He got away. He knew. He knew what to say. So I wouldn’t discount it. Like when you end up. Might have to be older.

Sure. I think up there as well. Yeah. I grew up there. I studied in Nottingham. I did undergrad. In biomedical science. And then I found myself in Eastern Europe studying the industry Bulgarians.

Which was also how was it?

Which was absolutely awesome. A lot of people, I think when I mentioned Bulgaria like who are think 101 thoughts but it was amazing skied in the winters beaches in the.

Summers, so amazing.

Country 100% so I was very very and European dentists are generally I think they’re very very good stands.

Of the high.

Very high.

Was of course taught in English.

Yeah totally in English. The only thing what you needed to learn Bulgarian for was had communicate with patients, which was a hustle in itself, because the biggest challenge there was you had to find your own patients. So now where you’ve got to do 30 root canals in your final year, you’ve got to go out and find these patients.

How did you do that? Talk to people in bars. Simply talk to people. Talk to taxi drivers.

And talk to grandmas that look a little bit lonely. The street and of course, just strike up a conversation. And obviously dental care is needed wherever it is in the world. So and fortunately I didn’t find it a huge problem.

So when you got back to the UK, when you told people you studied in Bulgaria, did that count against you, do you feel?

No, I think to be honest with you, when I talked about the experience that had out there and clinically what we did, they were quite open to it. And I think the dental field is just one where there’s such a lack of dentists that it wasn’t it wasn’t a big issue. There were certain things that I felt like studying abroad maybe didn’t shine a light on certain factors, and that was a lot of the medical legal side of things and the clinical notes and the defensive dentistry, as people call it, that wasn’t shown.

And that’s what I was saying. We were saying before in a way that’s been an advantage for you because you get a lot of new graduates here who are so scared of getting sued and and, you know, that whole regulatory side. And if you weren’t sort of brought up on that, you couldn’t I mean, you could tell who’s a good friend of mine. He studied in Czech Republic and he puts all his success down to having not studied in Britain because he just goes there and does things without worrying too much about them. I guess it’s a balance, isn’t it, between that and yourself and only.

Time will tell.

Did you go on any of that sort of that kind of course, risk assessment or something?

No, I think the most eye opening thing for regarding that was conversations I had with my mentor about that, who was really caring and generally just gave me a heads up that certain things are acceptable. And generally it is a standard that you’ve got to meet up to and just don’t shoot yourself in the foot before you even had some fun with it. That’s exactly what he said. Because these things will happen. It’s just the nature of the game. But yeah, let’s go from that. And speaking about practising in your hometown, for example, the principle where, where I’m working my NHS job is strictly private. And he came in one day and I was showing him a case where a patient had quite a protruding tooth and I was being very like cautious around the whole thing. I just because you look like Nanny McPhee, I was like, I was gobsmacked, but.

That was the thing. That was the thing.

And she left it off and from day went on and did quite a lot of treatment on the lady. So I think you got to see the funny side in life, isn’t it always?

So you now to even some work in London as well?

Yeah, I do. I do do a little bit of mostly, mostly emergency dentistry but from within that as well. I do have patients that I really click with and I do decide that, you know what, I don’t mind treating you. Maybe I’ll see you every other week and we go through that.

So you do one day.

One or two, and I do two days a week on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday. And we’re normally working in London.

So how many days a week, You.

Know, so I work four days NHS and primarily I do every other week in Leeds and most weekends. So if I’m working Saturday morning in Leeds in the evening I I’ll be working in London.

I know that’s a bit too much, man. Do you think so? Yeah, Yeah, I do. You know why? Because I don’t look like Who am I to tell you what to do? Do you like? Right, But yeah, the dentistry takes it out of you. Yeah. And so, for instance, there would be no enlightened if I was a five day a week dentist even then. Back then, I was a four day a week dentist on the fifth day. The whole idea of Enlightened and everything came then. Yeah. Now I’m not saying you have to start in like you have to do what you like in your in your life and you need to get as much experience as quickly as you can and all that makes sense. Yeah. And I bet you’re meeting people in London and meeting people networking. Yeah, but don’t discount the fact that a day off could be beneficial to you. You know, there’s that classic cliche for less. If you work for days, you make more money than if you work 5 hours, because in the four days you’re super focussed.

You’re very right. You’re very sometimes they say you need to be a little bit bored to get them bright ideas.

Yeah. So in your situation it’s of four days NHS. I did two days. Nhs Yeah. And even if the other two days don’t get filled up straight away and the other two days work on getting a private job right?

Don’t know. It’s something I’m looking into right now. I’m looking for the exposure, but I’m also understand I don’t want to burn myself out. We all like to. A different anomaly than everyone else. But I think is so.

Easy when you’re young. It’s easy when you’re young, but you can easily fall into these traps and just keep on going like this. I remember I used to do six days a week and 12 hour days for ages and ages, and I just kept on telling him that you’re making a mistake here. But, you know, it’s not necessarily the more you work, the better you do necessarily. It’s that work smarter. But tell me, did you get the materials when you came on the Inspire Makers?

Oh, yes, I did.

Did you buy them yourself or did you pass practice?

My practice is very understanding.

And did you find that easy to persuade your practice to get them?

Generally, I think principals generally, if say to them, you’re going to make them money, they’re not going to say no, are they?

Is that how you framed it?

You got to say, I’m going to I’m planning to make X amount this how much cases I plan to do a month. I haven’t really stuck to you as much as I look. But I think that’s kind of coming into fruition more so now. And they’re generally very small. They’ve got insurance because I told them it’d be a good thing for us to do. So I think as long as your principle here that you’re looking to get some sort of return out of it, the quiet for it.

How uplifting, how much preaching do you do?

Well, I try to do in terms of with writing. And we’re trying to do at least I’m trying to do myself is six, seven cases a month. That’s why I get to.

Talk to my patients about the of teeth.

I’m trying to implement it a little bit more. I think the visual tools are very good, so I prefer to start the conversation themselves by also just kind of take one of them off a patient anymore. So that’s what I’m trying to implement first stuff because I always let them know that first thing that we need to do need to get your bones and teeth free of all the bad bacteria, and then we can talk about cosmetic stuff. They are very, very open to it. People are finding just conversations are much more easier to go this time.

Watching the course for the second time, Are you picking up things from it that you didn’t pick.

Up the personally? Definitely. I think the first time I was at the course, I was only a year into my career and a lot of things I wouldn’t say they went over my head, but those terms I wasn’t familiar with and stuff like that. So now it’s very much all these questions are getting answered. You only know what problems you have until when you actually try to apply and you realise, Oh, I’m having an issue here, maybe I’m getting a bit of lip on the composite here. How do I fix them depression? To be honest with you, he’s very responsive even on Instagram. So awesome.

Amazing. Well, of course, all the worry with me, another second timer on Smile Maker. But last time it was London. I remember.

It was. Yeah.

Do you live in London?

I don’t know.

What you.

Do. So I live just outside Manchester.

Oh, so when you come to London first, I just survived.

Just for fun.

Which one was.

It? It was about this time last year. December 2021.

Which hotel was it?




Where do we go? Out.

We went to I think the w.

W that one. That was a good one. That was a good cause. It was a messy one. So what made you come again?

Oh, so I think after the last course that we went to, I left feeling very confident. I think the course is quite empowering in the sense that you go away with a sense that you can assess and correct your own work very easily. Even within the first hour of the course. We’ve gone through principles of smart design. And for me, that’s like the foundation of being able to understand and correct and look out and assess and really sort of like understand where you need to make the small adjustments to go from an okay composite composite case to it looks you deliver what the patient is expecting and what they like.

So did you start doing some concept? How soon after the course of you.

Started doing that much? When I first start the course, I had a couple of cases lined up just after I booked them and I sort of planned it that way. So it’s used in the course. I had like three or four cases ready to go to do that. Yeah, and honestly, just the level of confidence going into it. And then I, I even recorded on my phone afterwards like a little mini podcast and myself. Okay, so I did this. Well, I don’t post it anyway. So it was just for myself to listen back to you, to then have that confidence of like, okay, I’ve reflected. And then going into the next case, what I do that I liked, what can I do better? And then just going from that, I felt like, okay, I really feel settled and I just wanted to come back to the course. Just as a refresher for the little things I didn’t pick up last time to go over the foundations again and just sort of like consolidate what.

Kind of job you got.

I work in a mixed practice, so it’s mixed NHS and some private most of the private that I get is off of my NHS cohort patients. So it’s really just about delivering like the holistic general dental care and then also offering additional options to the. People who have already built a relationship with. And I feel like that’s quite a nice way to go by, especially for young associate.

How many years out of you?

I graduated in 2014. Okay, So yeah, and then I did a couple of hospital years as well. So I did Max and periods.

What did you think of it?

I enjoyed it. I had a really good I.

Went to Manchester.

I was in Liverpool, I went to graduate level, I did a year in hall and then I did Aintree and Alder. Hey, I loved the years that I was in hospital. I knew I didn’t want to stay in hospital indefinitely. I think for me personally, it gave me a lot of confidence, not even necessarily with clinical things, just like the soft skills, the decision making, the communication.

What’s it been through, a max factor job? Nothing. Nothing fazes.

You 100%. So you do get that sort of like just general confidence I feel like is invaluable.

Get that sort of. Oh, shit.

Oh, I don’t know what the hell to do. 100%. Yeah, 100% to.

Scare the hell.

Out of me. Yeah, 100%. Well, luckily, the year that I did it, we were in a really good group and we all felt exactly the same at the same time. Support consultants in the registrars we used to for people feeling like that. It was a very good year in that they were very supportive. You’ve got a lot of hands on experience and you would literally have a consultant over your shoulder watching you to be like, Do this, don’t do it like that, doing this. And you would have so much confidence in independence by the end of it. You feel like I can run a list.

But did you not have like one call in casualty cancer patients and flaps and all? Yeah, absolutely. I felt so.

I was.

So out of my depth.


So other than X commander. But I found the nurses were teaching me.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You go on the ward and people would look after each other. It was kind of like a pay it forward thing. You’d be having a really bad day. Someone would look after you and see someone else having a bad day. You look after them. I had a great first year doing that.

So now you’ve been qualified, what, six, seven years? And you’ve you’ve got these like these experiences doing that stuff. Doing this is your vision, your goal now going forward to go into private dentistry or is it not you happy?

I mean, definitely. I think that off the back of the experiences that I’ve had doing the hospital, doing different courses and investing in myself, I think that I think that’s most dentists trajectory to sort of like start increasing the level of options and things that you can do for your patients and really sort of like just building on the skills and the knowledge and the scope of practice that I already have. That’s I think, what everyone’s goal should be.

So that is your goal? Yeah. Yeah. But do you think that there’s going to be like an avalanche or there already is starting an avalanche of associates who want private jobs?

Of course.

Yeah. And so the sooner you get one, the better. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, I’m not saying you’re taking too long of it. You’re not. You think you’re doing what you do. You look happy and you’re doing a great job. But I know in two years time the competition for private jobs is going to be even more than it is now.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

I think the way to associate your principles going to listen to this.

I mean, for me, I think that if I’d have gone straight into a private job, straight out of vet and or vet plus one.

There’s loads of experiences, you.

Know, now I feel like a completely different person to who I was then. And I feel like I can bring so much more value now, having already built. I mean, people have different learning.

Quite ways of learning.

But to me that experience formed the way I practice now, and I don’t know how I could have done without it.

So fair enough. But going forward, that is your goal, you’re saying?

Yeah, definitely. I want to be able to, I think, just personally go into dentistry. You want to do your best to provide the best and the best vision practice ownership.

Is that on your horizon?

Yeah, it’s funny you ask about that. I think that I longterm I would love to. I think that they and probably a lot of people can relate to this in the sense that as an associate you don’t have control over everything and how things are done. And that can be frustrating at times, especially if it’s sort of person who is very much like, I don’t necessarily follow or do things just because someone tells me to. I like to question things and be like, Why are we doing this? Or could we do this better where we see inefficiencies and think we’re wasting time here? This could be a much better version of what it is, and practice ownership would be a dream. I would honestly love to do that down the line and it’s one.

Of the main reasons people start practices isn’t to make more money, it’s to get full control. Yeah, And and then as a principle, I think one of the best things you can do is to hand over more control to associates. So that they don’t have that feeling. And sometimes the smallest thing can can piss you off. Not being given a nurse or getting the agency nurse or something, whatever it is. For me, I used to have a bugbear about intraoral cameras. Like, why wouldn’t the principle get into all cameras? It just makes sense. I went and got my own after a while. But nowadays I’ve been practising for ten years. Nowadays, associates are expected to buy a lot more of their own equipment. So if you’ve done that, have you bought your own stuff? Did you buy our composite?

I have not got the composite yet. And part of that is exactly because you realise that there are things that you can’t do with a composite. It is literally the only microfilm. So.

Yeah. So are you going to have to buy that yourself, or is it possible?

I mean, I could approach my principal and all the management and ask them and have a conversation about, okay, well, I’m willing to talk. This is why where I work is, is more corporate. I could definitely I mean, are flexible in terms of buying materials. For me, I like just independent. I don’t really like if I’m going to have it, I’m going to use it. I’ll get it myself and I’ll charge for it. And that’s just the way I work. Yeah. And then it’s mine. I’d have to share it. I don’t have to.

Pay a nurse. Is your nurse always the same person as that person?

Change? Yeah. I mean, so when I started the job I have now, me and my nurse, who is a trainee, we both started at the same time. And so I very much felt like we’re a little team sort of trader, and she’s just about to qualify at moment. At the moment we do have a little bit of a mix where we work with different people, especially when you own your own equipment. That can be frustrating. If so, you’re very like, okay, when you go to Datacom, make sure you bring that back, match how you do this and then bring it back. You don’t want things disappearing and going on. So it’s just you have to learn to work around being in a mixed practice and having different nurses and everything’s work around me.

So how many days a week you work?

I work full time. Five days, five days.

Long days.

I mean, it’s 9 to 5.

So just I was just talking to someone else about this. Why don’t you work four days?

I did. Well, I’m contracted five days and they want me. Well, yeah, to me, full time really is four days. And I found that when I did four days, I wasn’t any less productive than it was in five. And if anything, I’m coming to work a better version of myself and more refreshed. I’ve had my own personal time to myself and I think really four days is enough.

Yeah, no, I’d agree with that. Are you coming tomorrow as well? Yes. Are you coming tonight as well? Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So I’m so glad that you decided to come again.

Yeah. No, honestly, it’s been good.

To have you watching it again. Watching it a second time. Have you learnt other stuff?

Definitely. Definitely, yeah. Last time I came, I sat thinking, Oh, I’m going to take notes, I’m going to do good. And I think actually that makes you miss things. Whereas now I’ve maybe a couple of things on my phone, but it’s really just listening. I’ve got more context to be able to apply things and I’m picking up the little bits and things, and especially after having done a couple of cases, it’s like, Oh, that’s why I do it like this, or This is something I could do slightly better or make it more predictable and consistent and get a better result.

Have you ever read a book twice? Yeah. So if you read a book twice, you’ve just got two different frames of mind. That’s true. Yeah. And you get different things out of the same book.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And repetitions. Huge repetitions. You I’m, I’m thick. I’ve seen this 100 times. I still learn. Still learn every time. Anyway. Brilliant. Have you? Yeah. Thank you so much for.

Having you back.

I’ve got with me Georgianna, who’s our head of sales. Been with us for 11.

Years in January.

Ten year.



We should have a key.

So you. Do you remember your first mass of needed?

Yeah, it was a long time ago, and it was a one day format. We were doing the time. Yeah, the enamel sessions. And it was in Birmingham Dental School.

With the.


In the in the new dental school. Now the old dental school before they built the new. Yeah.

The first one was in the old one.

When the first time you saw it. What did you.

Think? I believe it was 13. No, because we’ve done some some Hands-On courses before with.


With Jason Smithson and Corky Willhite. Yeah, but I was surprised of the level or the Depeche was teaching, considering how young he was.

Yeah. Yeah, he was younger. It was. I think back then, he was like four years out of dental.

Yeah, exactly.

And I remember I remember at that time people contacting me saying, I don’t want this kid to teach me, you know, someone younger than them teaching him. But that needs to be our challenge at the time.

It was really fun that people that did both courses were surprised by the quality of the lecture as well. They didn’t feel like they were losing anything, although he was like one of his first lectures.

Yeah. So you’re more in touch with the delegates than than I am because, you know, you call them before and after and all that. And what do you see? Is that the main thing they get out of this?

Oh, they get a lot of confidence, first of all. Especially if they’re younger dentists or a lot of therapists just run with it. So after therapists attend the course, a lot of them become users of the enamel of the cosmetic products. And they it’s a reoccurring order. So they’re doing very well for themselves. They get the confidence of just going out there and doing composite work.

Yeah, but for me, like the motivation of people coming mean we look at the crowd and generally it’s about three quarters associates and a quarter principles. The motivation for coming to this cause. Generally when I talk to people, a lot of it is about getting private jobs. And, you know, wanting to progress their careers forward. So. But you’re very much responsible for the whole experience side of the thing as well. But when when you call people up afterwards, do they do they say they have a good time? Do they think it’s too heavy? Because sometimes it is heavy.

The first day it’s a bit it’s a bit challenging because it’s a long day. But they never say, oh, they should have made the lecture shorter or easier. They are just saying it’s a lot of information. And because we do offer people the chance to come back again and watch the lecture, they feel like it’s a gain for them. So they are happy. It’s better to have more information and have less and they can always come back and just refresh my memory. So they do like that.


And I like everyone. Everyone else I’ve interviewed has been someone who’s come again for the second time and I think it’s valuable because you do the treatment a few times and then you’ve got new questions.

Exactly. Exactly.

But, you know, the thing I find interesting is that we’re so familiar with the terms, but you’ve got to keep reminding yourself that when someone arrives for the first time, the terms, the concepts are all brand new to them, and because we’re so familiar with them, we kind of take it for granted and for someone to come again another time seems like a big commitment to get a second weekend to it. And when I think back to when I really internalised it, I might have come 20 times before I fully understood what was going on. But for someone with a non dental background like you, you now know more about teeth than a lot of people. What’s your reflection on dental world?

It has changed a lot since I’ve been with you guys for ten years and it has changed a lot in the last ten years. Yeah, because I feel like the competitiveness of dentists, it’s more. Is the primary focus of of then then this. Today, like Kunal says in the lecture, a lot of dentists are competing with each other and they’re doing work for other dentists to appreciate rather for them than their patients. So they do focus a lot on getting appreciation from from other dentists.

Because of social.

Media. Yeah, exactly. And some people don’t put themselves out there because of this, because they are thinking other than this are going to to judge their job and they are missing out on marketing opportunities. They can attract more patients to their practice and put them on on the market more for the specific cosmetic work that they are doing.

Yeah. And what about with when you we give each of the delegates that enlightened kid when they they do their first enlightened treatment, you find that they’re surprised, pleasantly surprised. What are they what’s the story when you follow up on that first kit that they’re using?

It’s usually the surprise is when they actually get the kit, not when they actually use it, because they know enlightened works and the light never disappoints and we always deliver results. Is the surprise that they have that free kid to either treat themselves or treat a family member. So that’s the nice part where they can offer somebody a bit of joy without.

Either, Yeah, if it was me, I would treat a patient, not a family member, but I feel like most of them treat a family.

Or themselves.

You know, we have this issue that sometimes we get. We get How often do you think it is we get? Dentists call us up and say, I want to get enlightened kit for myself, and then they’re not using it on their patients.

It happens quite a lot. Yeah, and this frustrates me a bit because if an item is good enough for you and if life is good enough for your family, it should be good enough for your patient as well, rather than you being focussed on how much or how little you’re spending on a product you should be focussed on. What’s the best product on the market for your patients and to offer the best product that you can for your patients, not the one that makes you the most money and or it costs you the least.

Yeah, but I mean, look, some some practices that the profile of the patients different. But some some practices are fully NHS practices for the sake of the argument. And so people might think what my patients wouldn’t want. Hi. Hi.

How do you.

Know what I do?

How do you know?

So when I’m with you, I basically agree with you.

This is just making assumptions and projecting your judgement on what people want and what people can afford. So. Exactly. So you shouldn’t make this assumption then you shouldn’t project what your beliefs are on your patients because your patient, a patient that you might think would be willing to spend £10,000 on a mouth rehab, maybe it’s not there yet, or a patient that you think 2000 £3,000 for a treatment is a lot. He would make an effort to finance going to a finance program and have that thing done for him or her.

Plus, most a lot of our big users are NHS practice’s anyway.

Yeah, exactly. So you never know. Don’t just make assumptions.

Yeah. So now last night we went to this flesh and buns and we tried hard on the social side. But Johnson, my frustration when sometimes someone doesn’t turn up to the social side. But I feel like the social side is just as much education as the more social side.

I totally agree with it, especially because it happens a lot of these courses where everybody comes to shop around the bit as well. Associates come to shop around for practices and jobs. Exactly. And principals come to shop around for associates because if the associate comes to these courses and invest time and money in themselves is the kind of person that you want to have in your practice working for you. So this social part could be that extra boost that your career might need or your practice might need.

Last night, I feel like most came last night. Yes, there’s maybe three or four. Yeah.

Everybody, I think like very few people didn’t come just because they were or had to go home because they were living far away. But most people did come last night.

Maybe. Maybe we need to emphasise the social side even more. I think that we kind of do already.

I think it’s just time and location that that makes a difference.

I don’t mean I mean there was one couple, they came from Wales and then they said we’re in London and we want to go and see Soho and all that.


So I get it, I get it. Come to, come to the different town. You might want to do something else, but I don’t know, like last night I, I put a girl in touch with Kunal and he pretty much offered the job last night, so.


This is what I mean. Yeah, exactly. So. And today another, another guy. And of course he’s got lots of practices. He said, Oh, is it okay if I go on the forum and ask people on the forum if they want jobs. Because like what you said is right, it’s a self-selecting group isn’t it? Someone comes invest time and effort and money into something like this. That’s the kind of associate you want.


So I’ve got just by two years and years and years you’ve been with us Enlightened, and I think you came to one of the first ever really small makeovers.

I used to run it in some practices. I think I came to someone’s dental practice somewhere in London. Nothing you did.

Oh, we did. One a year practice.

Maybe. How was.

That the one you.

Came to remember the area? Yeah, I was in a.

Practice part of town. People can tell.


Three of those. So course you practice is one. When I. When I hear the name of your practice, it just reminds me of years ago Enlightened and a practice that came out of nowhere. And suddenly you guys were doing loads of Enlightened. But what is it about your practice? What is it about what you do that makes? Where is it?

Yeah, yeah, I think obviously so. People want six now though.

Yeah. 6 to 10 years ago.

You know, I personally have always done whitening for myself. Like as soon as I qualified, I remember one of the first things I did was whitening. And so I believed in it, my staff all following me or did whitening. So we all believed in whitening. And so we were happy to to sell. I mean, nowadays with social media, like, oh, I qualified in oh six, things have changed with social media and now everything is about selling. But back then people didn’t want to be sold to as much, so it was more.

Comfortable talking about it. I was cause you were instructors.

I believed in it myself and the maintenance was low and you know, your support once I started doing Enlightened made me feel so much more comfortable treating the patients, knowing that if something wasn’t quite right or wasn’t as good as what the patient wanted, I could call you, and which I did. And, you know, I had the backing to do this or do this. And so that just gave us the confidence. And then slowly, slowly, like now, I’d say I don’t really do any composite or bonding on anterior teeth without whitening. I can’t remember the last time I did Invisalign without whitening.

So how much of your practice is now cosmetic? Is it a lot of it.

I’d say 50 to 60% Is is cosmetic. Yes. So a fair amount.

The position bit is that in the town?

Not really, to be honest.

Well, you positioned it as a family practice.

A family, definitely a family practice, I believe really take care of patients and people. They’ll send other people to you. So and also I find that the cases where someone comes in free consultation, Invisalign whitening bonding, fine, they’re good. But the ones who I’ve known for three or four years and now they want that treatment, it’s just so much easier. Like sometimes the.

Trust is already there.

Trust is there. But also I find some principles will go against this. But I’ll sometimes call a patient, you know, can you can we move you a little bit early or maybe tomorrow life If the baby is not well or have an appointment, it just means that it’s so much easier for me. Those patients like me, I like them. And likewise, if they call me and say, You know what? Can I move to another day? Yeah, sure. I’ll move them to lunchtime, the day after or whatever, for the short term appointment. So in both ways it goes. So I think that’s why I keep it as a general practice, because I like those general patients, I like looking after them and when they do have the cosmetic work, I think it’s just so much nicer and easier to.

Work with it. So is Epping the part of Essex that you imagine as like the sort of the classical Essex, or is it.

I think it’s a little bit we, we try and pitch it as a little bit higher or higher in. So you’ve got like Chigwell out there, they’re very well known words that you see on TV and things like that. Yeah, exactly. So but Epping is just outside of those areas, historically a slightly older clientele, which is changing now, but so it’s kind of a bit of both. So we get those patients from those areas coming into us as well, but we try and pitch it as though we’re a little bit different from that kind of billing practice.

And how about bonding, if you know, bonding, increasing, people ask you to load.

Yeah, so much. I’ll do two or three cases a day or bonding now after the course, probably to spend a bit longer, charge a bit more. But yeah, everyone is wanting bond even older. But I’ll do patients 80. I’ve known patients in their nineties, I’ve done bonding for age one day with chips and wear and and it you know just cosmetic as well not even functional I’ve done whitening I’ve got a 96 year old guy I did my life whitening. Yeah. Yeah. And he had three teeth he wanted to denture whitening so we did a lighting case for him. So again amazing. Like, I think that’s brilliant. Like it’s still taking care of yourself.

You came to Depeche about six years ago and now you see him today. Did you notice any difference in style?

I think the self assurance you can tell you listen to him and even then it’s amazing knows this stuff. But now obviously with his accreditation and stuff as well is that name is authority. You listen to him and he just automatically whatever he says is is right and you can. Yeah. Just the way he talks is Yeah. He says you can see the change, you can see that confidence which, which is great.

So listen I’ll better let you get back to that shame. He didn’t make it last night. I know. You should come again.

Just for the next time. I will all come again. Hopefully, I’ll appreciate the day. Appreciate the weekend. Nothing to.

Do. The way I think about it is if someone gives us their weekend. Yeah, that’s all we can do. Give it up here. Then it’s up to us to make sure that was worth it.

It shows. I learn from you not just the dentistry, but also how. How you are with us. Right? I was saying to you yesterday, the lunch that you put on yesterday was the best lunch I ever had. And of course I left the breakfast and everything is just that. You go out of your way even yesterday, like 530, and I’ve still got an hour’s lecture and it’s just like, you know, nothing’s too much as you go out of your way, which you do. And I learned that and I, I try and do that for my patients. Obviously, sometimes it’s hard with lots of patients. I do try and try.

And do you plan to put more practices or you you just have that one that you make amazing.

I think I’ll be 14 January looks like think people say I don’t feel it sometimes my plan would be I think I would like it within the next five years. I’d like another practice closer to home where I would work a little bit more, maybe go and pick up the kids after school, drop them off and go back to work or whatever. Yeah, slow down or you just be that I’m about 40 minutes from home. Oh, yeah. So if I was five, 10 minutes from home, like I’ve set up a school. So where do you live? I live in just outside of Brentwood, Sheffield. So. Yeah, and that’s a kids get a bit older. I think it’d be nice to to be a bit closer. So that would be the plan. Let’s see how it goes.

Hopefully you’re going to get back. You better get there before you miss the next bit. Thanks so much for doing that now. So I’ve got Martina Hodgson from the dental Architects at MSN. Finally, it’s been it’s been a long time coming.

I know. Yeah, it’s great to be here. It’s come for so long.

Why did you come to London? Not Manchester.

I got in the dates. Nothing particular.

But you had something last night with the fancy.

So there was a future of dentistry with FMC on Thursday night. So this is like the who’s who of dentistry.

That was just for the young ones that I know.

Well, I’m not a young one. So.

So was it not full of just like.

It was.

Two year qualified people.

No, no, no. There was like, was there really Rona and. Oh really. Yeah. So it’s good. Yeah. Yeah. So we had like round table panel discussions fuelled by lots of prosecco and like constant nibbles. So that was.

Fun. So you do mostly Invisalign? Yes. Yourself as well? Yes. It’s not just your everyone.


Yeah. So what do you do about the bonding at the moment?

I do a lot of bonding. Oh, do you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s why I’ve come, because I do a lot of bonding, and I think it’s really. You need to constantly up your skills. Yeah, And it’s great, because if you come to something like this, even though I do a lot of bonding, you you just pick up those little tips all the time.

But, you know, in your set up on our podcast, you said you’ve got one clinician who’s in charge of the case.


You’ve got one clinician does the IPR. Yeah. And what else?

One attachment.

Is that different person to the idea.

They can do the iPod touch phones, bonded retainer fit and.

Then who does the bonding? The one who’s in charge of the case?

Yeah, the one in charge of the case would do the bonding.

Yeah. So that’s interesting. So how what percentage of your cases end up with bonding? Most of them.

I would say probably 90%, because when you’re doing adult orthodontics, you and the reason that you’re doing the orthodontics is because there’s a problem with the occlusion and it might be causing tooth wear and you get a lot of tooth wear sort of cases come through. So nine out of ten need a little bit bonding at the end. And, you know, that’s I think sometimes people think it’s because you’re not straightening the teeth properly and it’s like a mask for that. To me, you know, I have such high levels that we need to achieve with our orthodontics, and it’s not there at the end to make the teeth look straight because you can’t straighten them properly. It’s there because you have got this tooth wear or sometimes there’s this trend. Now patients don’t like the shape of their lateral incisors or.

The more.

Square. Yeah, or the canines are two points here. This is dentists. We think they’ll actually is beautiful and we like their pointy canines. But you know, there is this trend out there now that people want to change the shape of their teeth.

When did this cosmetic revolution happen in Yorkshire?

In Yorkshire?

Like it’s a new thing.

And I don’t know. I mean, I’m 20, there’s so.

Many new practices opening in Leeds.

Yeah, there is a lot opening in Leeds I think. I don’t know why there’s, there’s a lot of good practitioners in Leeds.

Yeah. I mean it’s a big population and I just even have thought of Leeds as a like a cosmetically orientated town. But it is.

I think it’s very much Yeah, yeah. My patients, you know, like, you know I’ve got two very different practices so.


One is this old coal mining village, a few terraced houses not together and what is it? Leeds But the patients are the same. They want the same things. They want the same outcome out of their treatment.

I mean, maybe. Maybe I’m talking like old school before the internet world. Yeah.

But when I qualify was 2001. Yeah. And there wasn’t composite bonding. Yeah, it was just putting composite on a tooth. It wasn’t a thing like it is now. Yeah. So I think, you know, when I started doing a lot of Invisalign, that was the time when I thought I really need to upscale on the bonding because it finishes the case of so beautifully. And that is the wow moment at the end of the case.

What can I say? This is very true. Yeah. And you know one thing, he does this thing where you pay for the Invisalign, but you get the bleaching and bonding as part of the Invisalign and his the whole thing about it is he wants everyone to have bond, doesn’t want people not to have the bonding.


What have you picked up from depression. What’s been your sort of thoughts on the course itself.

I think I think with these courses that you pick, it’s great to see the gold standard of everything that should be done. And you know, every dentist is different and every dentist wants to be a different type of dentist and it can be confusing. And the lecture he’s just given was, you know, yes, you can do ten composite veneers in 2 hours if you want, but the results aren’t going to be same as if you spend four or 5 hours on that patient and you’re treating them to a gold standard because you can’t treat in 2 hours five, ten composite veneers to a gold standard. You just can’t. But young dentists see this and they think they have to achieve this. Yeah, that’s fine, if that’s what you want to do, if that’s the kind of dentistry you want to carry out, but you need to decide where are you on that spectrum? Where where are you happy to sit?

The other thing is it’s a very unforgiving material. That’s the problem with it. You know, it’s something that looks like nothing ends up being a massive issue not long later. And it’s been a it’s a funny thing because he spends a lot of the court kind of persuading people not to do the treatment as well either. And I think I think what you’ve got to get right is the right thing at the right time with, you know, dare I say.

Consent for the right person? Yeah, because it depends on consent.

I mean, your patient needs to understand what they’re getting themselves into. Absolutely. And I never thought I’d be a stickler for consent. Right. But actually. It’s real, isn’t it? It’s something that isn’t going to last forever unless it’s done very, very well. And even then, it’s not going to last forever.

Exactly. But consent is not a checkbox exercise. Consent is what builds a good practice. You know, a really thriving practice. Is that conversation that you have right at the beginning and you’re not surprising your patient at the end by saying, oh, by the way, this is only going to last 3 to 7 years and it’s going to chip and it’s going to stay, you know, you need to it’s about educating your patients. That’s what consent is to me.

It’s one thing to look, you’re you’ve got a bunch of sort of superpowers. Right. And and I know, I know it’s sort of an unfair question to say which is your key superpower. Right. Because I’m sure the treatments are brilliant. I’m sure the environment’s delicious. I’m sure the people you pick and motivate. But what would you say?

I know what my superpower is. My superpower is my ability to create an amazing team. Really? Yeah. I think. I think if you can do that and get the right people in and inspire people, yeah, I think the rest follows. You don’t have to be the most brilliant dentist in the world. And you know, and I saying this to some of the younger dentists and they’re like, I’m not good enough to do private dentistry. My skills aren’t good enough to do private dentistry. And I’m saying to them, private dentistry is not just about the materials you use and the skills that you have with your hands. Private dentistry is about the way that you treat your patients.

How you make them feel.

Exactly. That’s exactly what I was saying. It’s how you make your patients feel. That’s private dentistry. They don’t know how good your posterior composites are.

So let’s break it down. If your superpower is recruitment and sort of making people sell, selling the dream to your team. Yeah. What is it about? I mean, is it just that the kind of person you are or like, you know, let’s say I’m a I’m someone that you want to hire. How is it that you can persuade me to do what you want me to do?

Yeah, I think it’s explaining. It’s. It’s knowing who you are as a person. So me understanding what my values are, defining those values. And these are my values. Do you want to come along for the ride or not? Because if they’re not your values, you’re not. We’re not going to align. It’s never going to work. So my values are excellence, growth and to have fun. So if you want to come and do that with me, that’s fine. If you don’t want to be excellent, if you don’t want to grow, if you don’t have fun, go somewhere else because you’ll fit in better there.

It’s interesting what you’re saying. First know yourself and then number two, put that over in a sort of a simple way. Yeah. And then I guess number three, deliver on that, right?

Yes. Can deliver.

It’s a big piece, isn’t it? Because some people are really good salespeople. And when I say sales, I’m selling dentistry. Just good with timing, good with talking, but not good on execution or delivery. It takes both sides to build trust and a long term team.

And all that. And it takes a lot of hard work to get those systems in place. Yeah.

But we were talking yesterday about that tech hitting the ground running and whether you were going to do more and you were saying you just want to take a little breath. Yeah, but I see a dental doctor in every, every big city for sure. For sure. I really mean that. And what we were saying yesterday was, whatever, whatever you’ve managed to do with this team, you could do with a bigger team, with finding the right. If you if your superpower is finding people and motivating them, I think you should go like a scale on me. I really do. Really. And sometimes it takes someone else from the outside to tell.

You that I took your words on board what you said to me. I said, I have really thought about them. And I think my personality, as we discussed before on the podcast, is very much like, Go, go, go. What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? But actually, sometimes to achieve something like the dental architects, I do actually want to sit and enjoy it and I want to make it as good as it can be, and I want to get all my systems and processes so we find the way that we team the track and train the team, the way we train the dentists there, the way that they grow. And once you’ve nailed that in one practice, then yeah, of course it’s.

Dead easy to.

Replicate, but you’ve got to get.

It right. Anything. It’s very, very, very. The funny thing is most other practices will take three four years to get to where you’ve gotten to already. So in a way I’m sort of accelerating that organisation.

But remember, it’s 20, 21 years to get to that point. I know how long. It’s nine months.

Okay. But it’s.

Having the experience of the other practice and learning and seeing what works and what doesn’t.


I get it. So it’s people, if they think it’s overnight, it’s. It’s not.

Overnight. Of course not. I think it’s nothing worthwhile. Is is it? I’ve got Matty Parsons with me at Milli Smile Makeover. Matty. You came on this one. Makerbot. When? 26,080 September. Yeah, well, that’s pretty much pre-COVID. And you told me that was the first time you did a composite course. Yeah. And since then, if you fast forward to today, how much of your work is composite that all of you know and cost? How did you do general dentistry? Yeah, but the composites been the springboard to the rest. You know, a lot of patients come in wanting composite and with also Boston or whatever. So it’s like the compass is always the first step. It’s almost always what the patient is asking about this being the composite or maybe ortho on composite. So Matthew and I have found the Iran Wales game. We’re we’re a sports bar by ourselves because I think anyone else in Manchester is interested in Iran versus Wales. But I’m looking out for Will. Will they or won’t they sing the anthem? It’s just started. The Welsh are singing in their traditional Welsh voice choir sort of tradition. So while we wait for that, you’ve been on loads of composite courses now. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, do you continue to go on? I mean, you went recently. You went with Monique and Aretha. Yeah. So did you, like, go you continue to go on courses, even though I feel like you’ve nailed it. You never. You learn something new for everyone. Yeah. Jan Needham and Monica.

Tabitha, you know, learn lessons, learn how to party in the beta. Yeah, a little bit. But learn. So what’s. And he’s, he’s fantastic. And he’s a brilliant teacher and learn a lot when to Barcelona and so on. Yeah. Fantastic. And everyone does things so differently. So but so yeah. Speak up. So everyone does things so differently that you, you pick up tidbits from every person that you then implement and you make improvements to what you do. Yeah. So it’s funny because we get this call quite often. Quite often someone calls the office and says, Sell me the course. Yeah. Like I’m picking between you and this. Yeah. Tell me. Tell me why yours is better. And I think, like, look, composites, the material you use on every single patient, but by a long way, the material you use the most right, most versatile material we’ve got, it’s the most important. It’s the one we use on everyone. So if let’s say you’re now saying you want to get good, they’re not singing the anthem and that guy is that guy is that guy. Let’s say let’s say you want to get good at good at 5050 some awesome. Yeah, some of them are. Let’s say you want to get good at composite, right? If I was a dentist now, if I was a practising dentist now, I would, I would, I would go on every single composite course going because, because, you know, like you said, you learn from everyone. So tell me how what would you say to someone about dips is make a naturally talented you know he’s been probably earmarked as a superstar in this world from early on at dental school so things and I think that’s probably you know completely honestly that’s a double edged sword because in some ways he’s not rehashing what he’s been taught.

You know, he’s kind of wired in a way that he can actually do this. So he figures out a way to do things and then teaches up is quite novel. The double edged sword lecture is that because he can do it? It’s probably a call with other educators who may be weren’t as much a natural and gone and learn these skills with obviously some natural ability. They know how it feels to not be able to do it and they’re able to step back a little bit. So and this is exactly why everyone teaching is so different because in different places and and that’s why you learn such different things from different people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s no great when someone comes up and says, Tell me why your course is better. It’s not better. It’s different. Yeah, it’s a really difficult one. So I’m sorry. So I taught, I taught our team to say to that person, they’re all good. Go and gone. All of them. Yeah. Yeah. And you see, we have people come again and again. To many small makers, I think it’s, you know, there’s a lot of information and then you’ve got to do the work and then you’ve got new questions, right? And I’ve seen it 100 times that you’ve been at least ten times.

Yeah, Yeah. I still learn it. Still learn when that’s when I look at it. Because you’re in a different mind frame yourself when you know when you’re watching. Tell me about your work now. Is your patients your social media? Are you happy with the fact that you’re bringing in composite work and composites the beginning of it? Because Depeche himself, he’s moving more into like full mouth stuff as a dentist. And are you going to stay at this sort of at this point or are you going to move move it in different directions? I’m way beyond what I ever thought I would be. Really? Yeah. God. Yeah. And if he again, he probably knew or thought, especially from a really Dental family. Yeah. He’s got elder brothers who are dentists. And my only experience with dentistry was my own dentist as a kid. So that for me was the pinnacle. And I didn’t even really know there was private dentistry, cosmetic dentistry until I got out there. And so for me, really seeing it on online, it’s funny. It’s like my, my, my dentist was on Harley Street. Yeah. So I didn’t move, but my dentist was on. I knew he was. That was a kid, right? I know. I just thought that’s what a dentist is. Yeah. Then I went in for my first job. I was like, What the hell is this? I couldn’t believe it.

I couldn’t believe it. This was like, what a dental place. Polar opposite. My job was amazing. Practice. Roughest practice. Doing the course today. Yeah. Well, it’s great. Looks like such a fun game. I’m going to talk to the nicest guy. But look at this lovely mixed practice. And for me, it was a big seventh surgery outfit that had been relatively recently done. My practice growing up was the three surgery number that, you know, the waiting room was like a bit dated when I was going there as a kid, and it’s changed since and left. But for me, I thought, Oh, this is nice and you probably won’t get it done. What is this? I hate it. I couldn’t believe that that was that was my life. And then the ideal is the NHS itself. Yeah, it’s third party like, you know, you’ve got you, the patient, someone telling you someone else, a third party telling you what you can and can’t do. It’s just changed recently. I know, but there’s still rules and regulations, right? Yeah, it sounds like it’s improved. Oh, really? That’s been split into three. Oh, yeah. Sounds. Sounds better to me. It’s amazing the number of people we just. We just ask the room, like, why are you here? And the number of people who come on this course and tell me the reason they’re coming on this course is to find a private job. Yeah, Yeah. And we know we’ve got it’s almost a bad situation in dentistry now where none of the young dentists want to work in the NHS.

It is. Yeah. And so, I mean, has it changed since you were a young associate as far as did you have those lofty goals? I mean, you’ve ended up as a fully private, super duper composition guy. Do you remember the transition from thinking, Oh, this is my lot NHS to I’m going to look at other things? Yeah, like how did that moment have a ring to it? And I’ve never thought about this. I was kind of I, I was really scared of jumping too early, I think. And I, I was mixed about this and I, how many years we had mixed practice and pop out of 13 stopped seeing NHS and it was about COVID, you know, it was just before COVID. But when I say COVID, I mean that three month closure, because it was not long after I’ve actually been in the NHS that then binned off. That’s a terrible time. But it stops in many patients that I that then. And the only way of making income for three months is NHS. But I just. But did you, did you say right I’m going to upskill now. Yeah. It was so it happened naturally and I hate the word but organically and it was never an intentional thing. It grew and it developed and it became better and better. And what I wasn’t ready to stop seeing NHS until I had like 6 to 12 months of patients.

And from that security point of view, and then I wasn’t ready to stop seeing kind of general private work until I had again take the NHS out of the equation, build up again so that you have a fully private and still 6 to 12 months in demand. And then you got the general as in Instagram. Yeah. So I think that probably the the fact that I wasn’t in a rush to become this cosmetic and still as private dentist is probably what allowed me to build up the buffet, which allowed me to go to the perfection. So when did you when did you decide you were going to be, rather than a consumer of Instagram, a producer, like a creator on Instagram? Because that’s a decision that’s a big decision in itself to put stuff out regularly of a high standard. It was my first my first set of souvenirs I did after the course I took before after is just, you know, what makes mommy. Yes. She hasn’t started Instagram until that point. So. Really? Yeah. For after like a written, like a ring flush camera. Who did the dairy? Dairy did the marketing? Yeah. Yeah. So he didn’t mention that he was telling us about, like, his reception, like psychologically profile patients, which is just from Australia, was in town that particular day. And I just said, Me, you want to do the marketing. So on the Instagram, did someone, did someone tell you, was it obvious? Was Mike and Maxim a brother and the wife? Because so the Practice had an Instagram page.

And so I think for after we were out with Dentist that night, what it was might have been a couple of my ended on sister can’t remember exactly what it was. But anyway, I had the before and after on my phone, you know, patient conference out the window showed a couple of the people I was here for uni and one of his colleagues is doing invites and the feedback was good, which surprised me. Normally you’re a bit scared to show people your work. Yeah, I was when and it was more along the lines of because at the time as well, Consequences had a bit of a bad rep because a lot of people were mass producing them and doing just, you know, no matter what the patient presented us, they were getting ten times it. Yeah. This like stigma still goes on a little bit. Yes. Yeah. And you know, to show a case where it was I think eight, seven days and it’s justifiable on a patient who had cirrhosis and a bit of modelling and said listen tunes and she tried writing in but really couldn’t hack it. So the back story there was like, you know, a good case for composite and generally good feedback. So it kind of gave me the confidence to ask, Well, I think all of this is like is remote Instagram to post it. And then I posted it onto my own, just like it’s going to up with like 500 followers, friends of family.

And so I never post it myself, but I kind of read, shared it, and then did the same again with another case and then the same again, I think a third case. And then my my brother and Meg were both a bit like, Why? Why don’t you do it? Sets up a new account. And I say, I don’t want zero followers and it’s really tough and that no, can’t do it. It’ll be worth it. So I did, and that was it. And I started and then those first few cases that I got posted on to this new page and I started going from that dude. Every time I ask you a question throughout all our conversations here, you make it sound like everything happened by mistake. And I don’t know, man. It’s like maybe you’ve been just Mr. Lucky. Yeah. Well, maybe if there’s this, like, some some people have, like, the decision making process isn’t conscious. There’s a subconscious decision making process, right? But, you know, you make everything sound so simple. But, you know, other people are sitting pretty, doing composite work all day and and executing on the social media. If everyone could fill up their books for six, like your book is more than six months ahead. It’s because of your work on social. Yeah. Yeah. So. So like. Or is this just for delivery or is this like your Mr. Modest? No, I want to be Mr. Modest Garfield. Stuff’s just happened to me.


It’s. It’s imposter syndrome, but different ways. Yeah. I don’t. I’m not doing anything. You hear stories of people who have done these brilliant things to become super successful, and I don’t feel like I have any. Do you set goals like that? Well, I was speaking to Simon. Simon, and he said when he was one year out of university, he set a goal to be the president of the BCD, and nine years later, he became the president. But then but then you you were president of your university thing. Yeah. What do you call that? Student society. That wasn’t like that didn’t happen by mistake, did it? Or did it? No, it just got to put forward a text. No, but winning it. Winning it. And it’s I think it’s so my opinion is that if you if you overthink things, then sometimes you have to make the decisions on without trying to sound to defeat the truth to yourself. So you see, then you’re told in order to succeed on social media, you’ve got to do X, Y, Z. So to do it, but it comes across as.


Come across as genuine to them and it’s not their personality. And whereas if you just go along for the ride and try and make the best decision you can at each point, so do the best you can, you know, lay those foundations, look after your patients properly, try and get good at your job. Don’t don’t rush to chase the money. You all these things, if you if you try and make all the little decisions. Right. And they add up to to bigger opportunities and people also small gains. It’s like people die. The cycling team. Yeah. The British, I can see. Yeah. Yeah. They said right. We’re not going to reinvent cycling. We’re just going to improve every little element of these bikes and these cyclists by marginal gains. All of those added together made them just unbeatable. You’re naturally a kind of person that people warm to in every situation, whether it’s in University of becoming the guy or when I met you with do 30 people in that room in many small make of you? But we kind of had some chats and people want to you? Yeah, people want to. Sure. I’m sure your patients won’t do you 100% sure of that. But so you that comes naturally to you. Like for someone who that doesn’t come naturally to. How important do you think those soft skills are compared to the hard skills of the dentistry itself? Because I’d say that it’s bloody important.

More important than people realise. Yeah. And I’m not going to ask you to give me tips on how to get people to like you, because you just it’s a natural, right. But, you know, what I would say is making sure your patient gets a memorable experience, memorable feeling, just like when you go to a restaurant and get it really good. So that’s as important as the tea. Yeah, I think if you’re exceptional one way or the other, you’ll be all right. If you’re if you have the best soft skills on earth, you can get away with me on the best clinical skills. Or if you are the best person on earth, you can get away. You know the soft skills. You’ll be alright either way. And for most of us that in the middle, you know. Yeah, I think it doesn’t really matter if you’re, if you’re a, an extrovert or an introvert or you’re quite confident speaking or if you kind of stumble over your words a little bit or whatever it might be wherever you are, not spectrum, I think if you genuinely it’s such a cliché, but if, if your patient feels like you care about them more than you care about yourself, and you actually listen to them and you look after them, if things don’t go too far, which they don’t, you put them right.

You don’t put that blame on the patient the amount of times you see. So people on the show your case and they say, Oh bloody hell, this patient’s moaning about X, Y, Z. Such a nightmare patient. But you look at the case and you kind of say, No, I can see what. They’ve got a good eye. And, you know, it’s not a terrible case. But those sort of things that they’re saying, I feel like that if they were mighty so. And I have patients come back and they say, you know, I like the tea, but listlessness, you know, is this a bit is not quite symmetrical here or is this not right. And and I think we’re it’s it’s taking that super seriously, listening to what they say is in a serious way. So is it unique to you know and this patient’s going to see this patient right straight on to defensive mode? Oh, no. Well, the reason for this is this and this and this and try and bullshit the patient. Yeah. And when actually, if they say I’m going to say that I’ll look and I’ll say don’t you. Right. Yeah. Spot on. Good spot. Sorry, that’s me. Let me source it for you. And it is rather than getting defensive. Yeah, exactly.

It’s never been an issue, ever been an issue. Like even the slightly bigger ones are the common and they don’t like the colour. You know, it’s not just a little change. And I have the chart and say this is a subjective thing and you’re as right as I am and if what they’re in your mouth. So if you think this and this and this isn’t right, then that that means they’re not right because what you think is the important. But yeah you know communication skills we we think of as like this polished person who delivers information in the right way. And I think it just comes down to actually treating patients properly and listening to them. Yeah, that cliche that people say about this, they call it empathic listening or something where, you know, there’s one thing where you’re quiet, you’re listening, but actually you’re thinking of the answer. But there’s nothing to fully understand what that person said it was, you know, Is it a goal? Yeah. Is a goal is your side? Is your side was Oh, yeah, it’s a go on one ear on raising the ear. This issue with whitening. Why is that so? Because. Because, because right in your lectures a.k.a whitening. Seriously, I’m interested. I spoke. I was speaking to a dentist recently who maybe should have known better. Yeah. He doesn’t. Doesn’t use a license.

Why? Why aren’t you using a lighter? And he said because you’ve never given me a free one. So I never tried it. So I got free one and I tried it. No way was it, was it. Sorry. Got them. Yeah. I’m going to have to start handing out more. Yeah. It was on the course and mean. Felt like a free kick and I took a shot at in the fridge. I don’t quite get it, so forgot all about it but the wife does. So she just said to me one day because I’ll just stick white and gels in the fridge. And she said, What was that green gel? Because it’s difference, It’s green, so it’s a green shell. So I got it from that course I did. And she said, That is so much better. Really? Yeah. So I’m going to we did an analysis of the free free kits that we give many small makers and many of them go on to become users. Maybe I should start giving more free kits. And that whole thing is that we are the premium product, so it makes sense for people to try the bottle and see for themselves because everyone says that the premium, if you, if you actually are, then show it. Yeah. So I’ve got Sara and Sadhu with me. Second visit to Amazon.


What was your first.


August this year. Yeah. Oh was it in Manchester.


So did you when you, after you did the course did you start doing some cases.

Only a few. I’ve not done that many. I have done a few. Get a bit more confident with it now.

So did you feel like you weren’t equipped to start at the end of the course or did you not have any cases or what was the reason why you didn’t like jump in?

It was more cases. I think it’s more like not selling it, but just having the right patients that are coming in and asking for it.

Yeah, because they think that with this sort of work, it’s it’s once work, it’s not needs work. And so as dentists we love talking about needs and needs are like, if you don’t do this, this bad thing will happen.


Yeah. If you don’t have the crown, whatever, you break the tooth, you don’t have the filling, you need to go. But with once it’s kind of the opposite and it’s like if you do do this something good or happen.


And that we’re not very good at we’re not very comfortable with it.

No, that’s.

True. But in Manchester you work in Manchester.

Like in the world.

Okay. But you must have people asking about family bonding now.

More now. Yeah. So more recently.

And. I’ve had a couple of.

So recently, I’ve had a couple of patients and they’ve just had their braces off and then have high blood draw or something.

Yeah, and.

I kind of used them as not practice. Practice is the wrong word of cases to, to use and to. To kind of show off.

Was it Invisalign?

No. So I’ve had one in particular. She was 60 and she just had a braces off. And from the orthodontist.

From your authority. So is it possible? Is there an in-house orthodontist?

No. No.

Oh, I see. You say it’s your patient who’s gone out? Yeah. Yeah. So, look, if you want to do more cases, do you feel like why become again? Have you thought like, now you’re ready, you’re more confident to do it?

Yeah, I do feel more confident. I feel like I’m one of these people that needs to know. I like watching things, so I watch it about ten times before. It’s. I feel like it’s fully sunk in.

Yeah. Some people just jump in and then they learn on the on the job. Other people have been a bit more cautious before, starting with a.

More cautious.

Person in dentistry. I am too. I feel like I’ve seen some people like they within two or three years they go and do implants and sinus lifts and yeah, it’s just not me, it’s just me. But you know, there’s different people, isn’t it? There’s different types of pros. And I don’t know about you, but once I figured it out, then I’m really good with it. I’m just slow to figure it out. So how many days a week you work.

For at the moment? Yeah, quite like four. Through uni. I worked in uni five days and then worked every Saturday and Sunday. So it’d be like I’ve done seven days at one time.

So what were you doing the weekends?

I worked at a travel company about a public transport company and answered the phones and also on the tolls on the tunnels.


Liverpool. Yeah.

And the Mersey. Yeah. So you studied Liverpool?


Liverpool screw up there as.

A real fun girl.

Okay. And so are you planning to open your own practice at some point? Is that not.

What everybody was asking? The nurses that I work with who said you should have your own practice? I don’t think I ever would, because. Well, never say never. But I just. I don’t know, like that you can go into work and then go home and not have to.

Worry about running.

A business. But I can never say no.

You don’t have the frustrations of being an associate where you have things aren’t your control, things aren’t done the way you want them to be done.

Honestly, at the moment, no. I’ve got a I’ve got a really good boss at the moment.

He’s. He’s just brilliant.

Yeah, he is. He’s really, really good. He’s like. He’s like a good mentor as well. So if you’re ever stuck on anything, he’s always there ready to help.

So it’s an example. As an example, last time when you came to him, did you buy the materials?

Well, no, that’s true, to be fair.

But did you ask did you ask him? Well, you didn’t ask.

I’ve asked for a few things, but I also brought Heidi with me today. So she’s my colleague so we can go back and decide.

I is your colleague at the same practice you need to you to be asking here. So that’s what I mean. As an example of control. That’s what I’m talking about. Yeah. What kind of practice is it?

It’s a mixed NHS and private.

So are you thinking. Go. Go more private now? Because that’s what I’m hearing from your associates.

Yeah, I do like I do like my NHS patients. But private is I think a 5050 would be a nice one.

Why not 100%?

I don’t actually. I think the NHS is good and my clients and the like. But it’s access. Well, so it’s, it’s because some people can’t afford dentistry and can’t afford to go and see a decent dentist. So I like that.

You want to be that care.

Yeah. I want to do, do still like the NHS in that way that you can help people that can’t afford private industry and genuinely want to help them.

Yeah, but of course I understand that. I understand that. But how about the fact that you’re doing it at a cost to your own career? Does that not bother you?



Yeah, but there’s a balance, right? Yeah, I get it. I get it. I know. It’s interesting. Are you sort of left leaning to believe in state or you think of it that way?


Just about the people.



Listen, I’m kind of left leaning. I kind of believe in socialism. Kind of? I do. But where it works.

If it’s.

You know, like in France, it’s amazing health system. It’s free, but it’s amazing. Yeah. If it works, if it’s working correctly, of course, I’m really up for it. Yeah. But here I feel like the NHS isn’t even sorting out people who really need it badly. Because. Because the amount of time and money that they allocate for the dentist, it’s near impossible to do things right. No, it is. It is. Yeah. So then you get you get that feeling that sometimes you’re not doing it to the best standard because you can’t.

Sometimes I think again, I’m quite lucky in a practice where we’ve got, we’ve got an D so anyone that needs a lot of work. 454 I think. But again, I was in that position because I was an employee at that practice. Obviously you get your experience in, but in if I worked in a practice where there wasn’t an FDA or wasn’t left in our practice, yes, then I would be really frustrated. And I’m just really lucky that I do every practice where we have in an area where it’s it’s got two sides to it. We’ve got a really.



And a high.

Needs, but really it’s split 5050. So again, really lucky in that sense. So I think it just depends on what area you work and what practice and if you’ve got access to an FDA. And I think I’m just got lucky in my practice.

So now that you’ve come a second time watching him lecture, you’re taking different things away, more things away. Or do you remember every bit that he did?

Every bit.

But yeah, it just sinks in a little bit more in that, you know. So we’ve gone away and done a few things that I’ve thought I remembered. And then and then he’s done it again today. And I thought, Oh, actually I didn’t do that quite right. So and I can improve on that a bit better. I can just listen a bit more rather than sitting and trying to take all it at once. I can listen to the parts that I may have missed last time.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you here for the whole two days?


And tonight.

And tonight.

Where do we go? And last time you came, was it 20 stories again? Well, it could be chilly this time. Yeah, me too. Tell me about your enlightened kit. Did you use it? The one we gave you?

Yes. Why not? For me, I think. I don’t wait for a good case to come along so I can.


Any patient. Yeah. Do you do much whitening?

You do a bit whitening? Yeah.

It’s the world centre of whitening where you are, right?

To be honest, I think there was a more a few years ago. I think when you think of everything, how everything is, I think a lot of people because you found like a lot of patients, I mean, you’re not cancelling their appointments and saying, Oh, come in after Christmas again, it’s money.

So you referred to that cost of living crisis and all that. You actually feeling that right from your patients?

You’re definitely.

Much more cautious about going ahead with stuff.

100%. So usually we’d have four books, all dentists and practice, and it’ll get to the week before. And so many people are cancelling. Or when we bring people up to say, oh you, you due to come in now they’ll say, Oh can I book in January after Christmas? And I’m just a bit strapped for cash to do. Yeah, definitely.

Thing is reckon next is going to be even more problematic. Unless you do you do much work on finance.


That’s good. Because. Because from what I remember, last recession, you weren’t even a dentist in 2008. But how old were you in 2000? Eight. Oh, no. So what I remember was finance dried up completely, whether it was for mortgages, whether it was for dental finance in a treatment finance, Finance completely dries up in the recession. And I feel like we’re not there yet. I think we’ve got a bit of an acceleration compared to the rest of the world because of the whole mistrust thing. But next year, I feel like the whole world is going to be going in. Now, the good news is, having been through two other recessions in history, then she doesn’t get hit as hard as you might imagine. It just doesn’t. It just doesn’t. You know, people people start cancelling other stuff, like people they won’t buy the sofa for their for their lounge that they were thinking of buying. And you’ll notice businesses start going bust. Those are the first ones that start going bust. And then people have one less holiday. Maybe by the time it comes to cutting health care, it’s going to be a pretty deep recession. So I wouldn’t worry about it, but I would worry about it. That’s the interesting point. The point is I would worry about it. I would make changes or whatever changes that you think are right. And it sometimes ends up being more in the go more to needs than once. Category.


Yeah. But then she generally gets through it quite well. That’s good. What does your husband do? She shouldn’t.


Oh, I don’t know.

He’s a data analyst.

Oh, amazing. Amazing to see what kind of tech company he works.

He’s recently changed jobs, but he. He works from home, so he’s nicely tucked up in bed, and I leave for work.

So what’s the worst thing about the is actually turning up? You’ve got to turn up. Put no choice but to turn up. I stopped ten years ago, and the best thing about not being a dentist is not having to be there.


And I still have to turn up to lots of places. So having to be.


Every day it wears you down, right? That’s what I feel.

Yeah. Yeah. If for some days it does.

Yeah. What would you say is the best thing? It’s.

That’s a really hard question. I actually don’t know.

It depends on what you love, right? Because if you love the problem solving part of it.


Some people are really into that. Dipesh really loves that idea. Some people are into like the carpentry of it, you know, cutting and fitting and all of that. And for me, when I stop the thing I miss the most people.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I do have. I think I would miss people. Hello. If I stop dentistry.

For these while you’re a dentist, people are kind of in the way. There’s too many people. If you stop being this sunny, realise people you’re not in touch with people in general.

Because you have only conversations with everyone and you get to know them, don’t you? And I’ve had a few lately and they go, Oh, how was your holiday? And it was six months ago. And I’m like, Oh, it was really good. Thank you. I remember it. And lots of people are really appreciative more than I think you realise, because they come in and bring you like your presents and things and it’s.

Because that thing is it that you’ve got many patients but you’re their only dentist sort of thing. Yeah, know. But let’s talk about private and NHS. The main difference is that these social piece talking to people, Listening to people.


The main difference, you know, the teeth. The teeth in the end. Yeah. But you know, you need to. For me I used to love the fact that there was time to have conversations about people’s lives and just there was no time for that.

People wait in the waiting like, Oh, and you try not to rush through, but you kind of need to because you’re, you know, you’re running 20 minutes late.

And something’s got to give, right? So it’s not going to be the lay or the treatment that’s going to give. It’s going to be that conversation that ends up being missed. And so for me, I only did NHS for one year, but in that year I realised I do not want to do this because I couldn’t talk to anyone. It was just rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thanks a lot for taking your time. Finally, I’ve got the man himself throughout. Throughout the course. It was very difficult to get any time with the person because obviously the busiest man in the room. But I’ve got you now. So how are you feeling?

I have a good buddy. It’s Saturday evening. First day was one intense starting line, two hands on exercises, clinical cases, lectures. Very good chat with many of the delegates.

Nice to have.

Mattie. Nice to have Mattie. Nice to have the football. Football’s on as well at the end.

Iran one.

Iran one.


Oh, nice. Yes.

Against Wales. But England, Drew.

And yet today, another hands on exercise.

Blessed to meet those people from the chorus who came again. It’s always nice to see them. Yeah. And they’re the only ones I managed to talk to as well because everyone else was busy doing their teeth on this podcast. People have been before, but it’s nice thing that I always feel like when someone gives a weekend over to you, it’s a it’s a humbling thing. Yeah. And we’ve always thought that. We’ve always thought the pressure of that, making sure that that weekend’s worth it for them. Then when someone goes to you can hear that chooses to come again. Yeah. And we don’t charge the second time or whatever. But it’s the time, isn’t it.

Yeah. And you know what? I’ve noticed. Yeah. The. The type of questions that a second time or second time comes is completely different to the questions asked by the new delegate.


So it just shows you that they’ve come on the course, they go into practice, they’ve tried a few cases, put things into practice, come across some hurdles, and then when they come back, there’s a higher level of thinking. Yeah, the questions are like, yeah, this is a.

You know, sometimes I speak I never ever speak for more than an hour. In my whole career, I’ve never spoken more than now. But every time I speak at the end of the hour, I’m just like, shattered. Completely shattered. Broken. Yeah. Because it’s kind of it’s much higher stress than it looks, being a lecturer. But then when you do this course and you’re speaking for like an hour and a half, then 2 hours and you’re on on show for basically two whole days and you’re having to do the hands on as well. And I know you could probably do the hands on these days without much trouble, but you still have got to do it. Does that does it tie you basically are you more tired than I am at the end of all this? You must be you must be shattered. Course I.

Do. It is. It is taxing. But the thing is, is the way the course is structured, there’s a story being told from the beginning to the end. And so for me, I need to tell the complete story. And it’s that journey.

So basic, sort of monochromatic and then polychromatic.

And the way this, of course, is structured, where we basically. It’s exactly what we do clinically. It goes through diagnosis, treatment, planning, share, taking, processes, isolation, tooth preparation. But at each stage we’re then going through clinical cases, going through the pros and cons of those different steps. And so I want I obviously want to share all the information and what I want to complete each step to a good standard. So it’s nice to be able to give them all the information.

Yeah. And it was pretty nice though, Matty, because it was like his first ever composite course was, was this that and only four years ago. It’s not that long ago. And to see him now, the way he’s like, doing composites all day, every day. And, you know, I’ve been asking that question of why does one person end up like Matthew and one person doesn’t do it. So if I was to speak to him on this podcast about that and how I got here and, you know, he was saying there’s different things now. Invisalign makes you have five cases ready before you can even do the course. Yes. Did you know that? Yes. I think it’s a good move. It’s a pretty good idea. Yeah. Because it means people are committed to starting. Yeah. And then he was saying that they teach, so you can’t really do the same thing.

You know, these dentists we’ve been do composites since third year universities. You should have.

Yeah, but this is a business that’s hot in which thing they teach their course by showing the cases of all the delegates. This idea is an interesting idea because it makes delegates realise it is possible. Yep, yep, yep.

Rather than seeing.

But there’s a bit thing too. This is the danger with you because you start your presentation so beautiful that the people just think, I can’t do that. I’ll never be able to do that. Whereas they don’t fully sort of understand the idea of, like, the first time you did it, you were a newbie to it. And it’s not like you’re the old guy, right? You’re 34 or something like 35, 35, 35. And the first time I met you, you already done beautiful work with 24 or something.

In your third year.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it’s one of those things. Like anything else, like the first time you do something is it’s a bit stressful and you really keep on doing it.

But it’s nice that I understand what you’re saying. It can get overwhelming. But the nice thing is, is every single step, the photograph just or the videos demonstrate the step perfectly. Yeah. So after they’ve seen the sequence of that particular case, they’re like page drops and it’s like.

I think this cause can be a bit overwhelming in terms of the amount of content in it, but I reckon you could have made two courses out of the content you’ve got in this course. You know, and I love I’m proud of the fact give me I’m proud of the fact that you give a lot in this course, but sometimes some people think they get overwhelmed by that, I guess.

Yeah, I think two days is something you. We’re pretty cool working from 9 to 7 on day one. For some. That’s that’s that’s a fairly long day. There is a lot of information to take in. I guess if we were to do another two days, it would be focusing on treating for large, multiple composite veneers, treating cases that involve different types of restorations or class for veneer to that kind of complex case, which typically most people say is easier just to stick a ceramic on top. But I mean, as you saw, Friday is the main day where we’re focusing on the operative side of direct injury. There is so much to it. There are so many steps that I too overlooked. Right. And then when I started to audit my processes and then start to ask myself, why am I using this wedge and not why I’m aware of using a wooden wedge as opposed to a plastic wedge? Why am I using a curved matrix and not a not a flat acetate matrix? You know, why do we keep. Why do we use a different shade for the plate or shell? When most educators will suggest using the same shade of enamel on the label surface incisal and palatal. So all of those things are quite easily overlooked. And what we’re doing now is breaking everything up and looking around.

A couple of years ago, you started this. You changed it slightly. A couple of years ago, you started this idea of you, you fit the solution to the problem. You know, what’s the situation? What’s missing? Where’s the problem? So bearing that in mind, so what’s the material that we need to use and what’s the shade that we need to use? And where is it? Is is it, is it chromatic? Is it a chromatic, is it near the gingival, is it near the incisal and sort of working through what the answer should be so that then they can tackle any type of case. Yeah. That’s and that’s important.

Which is important because the alternative was. Read a textbook.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But the thing is, is this is just like cooking. You read the the manual, the book. Yeah. And, you know, it doesn’t taste the same. Yeah, every time. It’s about application of knowledge. Understanding the why. Yeah.

What about the. The social. Do you have that feeling that I have about the social education as well? Oh, yeah.

I learned so much. I mean.

Different type of.

Educational specialists coming through associates. You’re getting therapists, single practice owners, multiple practice owners.

There’s a lot to learn from each other. Yeah, from each other.

It doesn’t have to be that opposite.

Yeah, it.

Can just be about life in general. Somebody speaking to me and saying, Hey, you know.

I’ve had some amazing people on this course, but yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, there are delegates are fantastic and I love spending time with them.

All right. Well, we we sound a bit tired because it’s been a long, long day. But I’m grateful for you for for having this chat.

But it’s been a fantastic two days. We’ve got it again two weeks time.

So back in London. Back in London. Well, thought it was a lovely performance this time that you need to do well in amongst the football. Well you have the football on the big screen. Very easy. Thanks, my buddy. Thanks for doing it, guys. Well, if you listen to the end, thank you so much. If you’re interested in attending the course or finding out more about the course, it’s on Mini Smile Makeover. Com. So mini smile makeover dot com. Obviously Mini smile makeover on all the social platforms as well. Thank you so much for for taking the time guys. See you on the other side of the next one.


This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.


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