Around half of the UK population have dental phobia, and 12% have severe anxiety. Few clinicians understand this as keenly as this week’s guest, Laleh Sharifian, who now spends her time as a sedationist.

Laleh recounts her journey pursuing a lifelong vocation into dentistry and sedation from being an early entrant at Guy’s, aged just 17. 

She lets us in on the experiences that promoted her to decide that practice ownership wasn’t for her, discusses a day in the life of a sedationist and talks about her love of scents and fragrances. 



In This Episode

02.20 – Patient management

10.23 – Favourite practices

15.28 – Focusing on sedation

19.38 – Heavy duty Vs shorter treatments

23.04 – Introducing sedation to patients

27.26 – ICS Guidelines

31.15 – Sedation for children and young people

33.45 – Medical histories, contraindications and complications

39.11 – Challenging scenarios

48.00 – Blackbox thinking

53.52 – Backstory

01.00.49 – Why dentistry

01.03.57 – Parents, flavour and fragrances

01.09.40 – Guy’s and London

01.14.55 – Student life

01.17.21 – Specialising

01.20.20 – VT, first practice, ownership and beyond

01.31.37 – Regrets and failures

01.34.37 – Instagram and spirits

01.36.56 – Fantasy dinner party

01.45.21 – Last days and legacy


About Laleh Sharifian 

Laleh Sharifian graduated from Guy’s Hospital in 1999, where her final year of research working on sedation and dental anxiety won the Malleson prize.

She completed a postgraduate diploma in sedation at GKT in 2002 under Drs  David Craig and Carole Boyle.

Laleh is part of the faculty of the Society for Advancement of Anaesthesia in Dentistry (SAAD) and practices sedation under the Ivy Sedation brand.

He said, Do everything that you do. Not with greed, not with ego, not with envy, but with compassion, with humility, with love and devotion. That sentence that I read really resonated with me because it’s so wholesome. And I think if you lead that life that’s both hedonistic and holistic, you know, we all want to have fun. We all want to pursue pleasure. But if you’re able to have that kind of really holistic world around you to create that happiness, not to be on that hedonistic treadmill where you’re constantly after that nice watch and the nice car and then this and that and that, the next high, the next high. Because we know, we know that the reason why it’s called that treadmill is that we know that everybody that that short surge of happiness that you get we know everybody ends up coming back to that same level. And these are all things I think we should teach them in Dental school even. But to be able to really sit and when you talk to someone to lean forward, to show them that you’re engaged, be interested in people. I think just all of those things as a whole, that is the secret to happiness.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome Lala Sharifian onto the podcast. Lala’s got a pretty interesting niche area interest in dentistry, and she was just telling me he’s the only one she knows who’s a full time dental seditionist who works in primary care. She works in loads and loads of practices. Is one of those names that if you Google her, 40 different practices will come up with her with her name. And you know, it’s either, you know, what is sedation. You’ve got a seriously difficult case I guess is one way or where you’ve got a seriously difficult patient, I guess, and where those two things intersect. Lala, lovely to have you.

I’m hugely humbled. Thank you so much. Yes, it’s a pleasure.

It’s my pleasure. Look, we normally go early life and backstory and all of that, but these days I like to mix it up a little bit. Start with the one question I want the answer to more than any other question. And interestingly, it’s not to do with sedation itself. It’s to do with the fact that you see loads of dentists work. Yes. And you see loads of practices. Work or not work. That’s right. And you see the way they handle their staff and you see the way they handle their patients and you see the way they handle their businesses. Give me give me some insights into the differences you’ve seen and, you know, the good stuff and the bad stuff and and how different is it just from the. Let’s start with patient management. I bet there’s 100 different types of dentists that.

You know what? You’re so absolutely right. That’s what I love about it. And it’s so fascinating because you are a witness. You’re kind of this extra person in the room witnessing everything around you. And but I genuinely have a few spinning plates, right? So I have I have the patient, the patient management, the patient that I need to connect with and manage. I have the dentist because that’s also itself. Yeah, I need to be able to be comfortable with them to know how they work. I’m there to make their life easier. And then we’ve got the staff. I need the connect with the reception with the practice manager before, after the notes. So yeah, there’s a lot of those spinning plates. You’re absolutely right. Yeah, But tell.

Me about the way different dentists handle their patients. I bet you get the type. I bet you get the really, really cool, comfortable, sort of, you know, gentle types. And then I bet you get the real sort of people put themselves on a pedestal or whatever. Do you see you must see different ways of handling patients.

I do. I mean, overall, I actually work with people I really like. So, you know, 99% of my dentists are all kind of quite similar, right? Because you tend to generally people like people, so you tend to work with like minded people. But but yes. And I’m really I love communication and, you know, ultimately the best way to communicate with people is to listen to them. And so you do watch some dentists and you kind of do think, oh, you know, maybe that that’s not that message isn’t going across to the patient. And you feel like, should I butt in? Should I say? But that’s really hard. You know, you kind of and anyone that knows me knows that I’m. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like to talk. And so. And a little controlling. But you never.

Do, right? You never butt in do you?

I just know when I should and when I shouldn’t. And I know my dentist very well. I’m friends with my dentists, so I know when I can be of help and I know when to. But also, don’t forget, you know, how they this whole rule of the seven 3855 rule. So sometimes my body language, my nodding me saying, you know nothing but that can give a lot of reassurances when the dentist is talking to the patients. Me just being there, just being an extra person, someone that has connected with the patient before they they. And then when the dentist leaves the room, they ask me those questions, which I think is the great thing about being a dentist and doing sedation is that you’re able to understand, you’re able to give some information without giving too much. It’s a real fine balance.

Yeah, I’m not aware of the. 738. What’s that?

Oh, so, you know, the, the whole 7% of what.

Body language gives.

Actually is the words and 55% is the body language. And Yeah.

What about what? Okay, so that’s patient talking to there. That’s the dentist talking to their patient. What about the way that people handle their nurses? Have you noticed big differences there?

Yes. You you notice when there is a great symbiotic relationship, which there should be. I mean, the nurses are the backbone to everything we do. I personally have connected with the nurses immediately because they’re going to be extremely important for me in the room in many ways from setup to watching the patients to managing the airway, to making sure, you know, they’ve got all their equipment set up. But the relationship between the dentists and the nurses. Yes. So a lot of times surgeons come in and it’s the they’re not often in that practice, so they don’t know anybody either. Oh, God. You know, they they’re kind of all on four type surgeons that turn up and nobody knows anybody really. And so I kind of and I have I kind of I’m the person in that middle that does a bit of showmanship to try to blend it all together. And whenever I go to a practice, the patient thinks I am part of that practice. I want them to think I’m part of that practice as opposed to someone external coming in. So you kind of just, you know, the back try to have this performance so that they’re able to get on with it and you can kind of fill in the space. You know, they have those comedians that come in in between the acts. Yeah, yeah. I feel a bit like a co-pilot.

And what about the businesses? Do you have some some businesses? Very disorganised, last minute. Can you come the day after tomorrow? Some businesses I mean, we deal with I deal with, you know, thousands of dentists and some some of them, some of them, you know, the the nurse is empowered to call up, buy the stuff up, sell, you know, we say, oh, you know, double the purchase and get a discount, whatever it is, you know, empowered to immediately say yes or no to that. When the bill when the bill gets sent out the next day, it gets paid. Interestingly, the same practices are the ones who have those nurses and the bill gets paid. Yeah. And, you know, and the whole gamut and everything and everything in between. You must have seen some brilliant businesses because, you know the kind of businesses that are bringing you in are doing high value treatments and all of that. So they’ve gotten to that point. Yes, but you must have seen some.

Well, the other day I actually turned up to a practice and they said, oh, a patient cancelled. And nobody tell you. And I just driven two hours to get to this practice. So there is that. But I think what I notice is practice principles that are just emotionally intelligent, right? They’re great Leaders So they are the ones that you kind of they inspire their team for the kind of to collaborate for one goal. And so they’re really good at delegating. Their staff have power, like you said, and they have trust and they always, you know, what is it They say that people great Leaders don’t have businesses, they don’t have jobs as such. So if you there is a famous saying like that and also you I notice sometimes some practice principles or Leaders that come in and everyone’s a bit nervous around them. Yeah. And so I always think a great leader again someone that is open to, to disagreement, right? So that if your staff feel comfortable enough to have a different opinion to you, that shows a great leader where you don’t have that kind of presence or a power over your staff. So I think those sort of functional practices are the ones that everybody is great at their job. They employ great people, they surround themselves with great people. And in fact, that leader is maybe, you know, not as as colourful as as maybe in other places. But they, you know, that team is great. And actually, you’re right, I work with mostly those sort of practices.

So go on then. And then finally, as a as like a building geek, what’s the coolest, best looking, whatever funkiest practice you’ve ever been to? Because obviously I’ve been to thousands. So I know I can tell you a good like a list of 2 or 3, actually. I should do a whole podcast on that. Yeah. What about you?

Aesthetics kind of thing? Yeah, well, funnily enough, you know that. You know, it’s interesting because I go to a practice that aesthetically is, you know, it’s not great. In fact, they still have, they still put their x rays in the, you know. Yeah, yeah. Machine and the developer and they’ve still got Chesterfield type sofas and that sort of thing. But actually incredible clinicians, incredible work being done, incredible staff.

So yeah, and by the way, much better that way, right, than the other way. Some beautiful building with terrible dentistry like Exactly. You see in restaurants, don’t you, Where the food doesn’t live up to the decor.

No, but you know what you always do? You judge like a restaurant. By the bathrooms or do you ever you know, do you ever go to people’s homes and then you go to the bathroom when you open the cupboards?

That’s pretty funny. I always I always go to to the toilet where in every house that I’m in, just for that, just for that little bit of nosiness. I know. I know every house I’m going to go in from now people are going to be like, I know, me too.

This is going to. But you know what? I interestingly.

I chose the practices based on the staff bathroom. If there is a massive difference between their staff bathroom and their patient bathroom.

Oh, very interesting point, isn’t it?

You know, that’s an interesting point, huh? Or the staff room is, like, shocking.

And then suddenly the waiting room is amazing. But. But I work out. I work out great. I mean, 38 Devonshire Street. Gaynor is such a leader. It’s just. It’s just one of those emotionally intelligent Leaders. The practice is great. It’s beautiful, but great clinicians. Costus is one of my ultimate dentists. It’s a great, great guy. Wimpole Street 2021. Wimpole Street. Um. Kia. Kia Vandi’s Practice again. A whole bunch of really, really great clinicians. I work out with Mark Corvus in Whitstable. That’s a really purpose built practice. Again, it’s a great dentist. I mean, you know. Yeah, quite a few, but those are the things.

How many active practices, how many practices actively refer to you, or is that the word refer to you bringing in?

Yes. I mean, I did my.

Audit for last year and I had.

About 35 practices. Wow.

But you’re right, because you kind of end up doing, you know, 75% of the work for maybe a handful of practices, 5 or 6 practices. So I yeah, so.

In those space. So there are places you’re going once a week where you do kind of feel more like a team member because you know that staff and all that.

That’s right. And usually with those practices I do lunch and learns and we actually I’m lucky because with any practice that does sedation has to be trained, immediate life supports. And Anish, my husband, is a life support trainer and so we do courses for the practices that I work at. And with that we do CPD. So we go through sedation. I go through kind of some lunch and learns and things like that. So I get to know the practices really, really well. They know my consent process, they know me. So it’s just lovely. You know, you turn up and it’s just nice and I love it. I think like I said to you.

Mastery is is lovely. So you’ve been doing it a long time. I bet at the beginning it didn’t feel so rosy.

Well, it sort of started slowly, right?

Because I did.

I mean, I trained that guys because they were the only dental school that taught sedation to undergrads. So it was something I was already thinking about. And so I’d kind of been sedating my own patients from, you know, 99. Um, but this going into other practices, the peripatetic work started, um, well, actually, you know what I can tell you because I’ve ended up balancing my microphone on my diaries and I have to have a paper diary. And so, and so I kind of pulled my diaries.

And I have five diaries here. So. And the sixth one that’s not so six.

Well, five years ago. Six diaries. Yeah. So initially, of course, you’re a little bit more nervous because you just want to. I just want to do well, I’m one of these people. I just I’m a people pleaser, so I just want to do well. I want everyone to be happy. So, yeah, you’re right. It takes a while.

I see. Yeah, I see how you bought the microphone that I asked you to buy.

Yes, I did. Exactly. You know, I Listen.

So how many years of dentistry did you do before you stopped the teeth? Like before the drilling and only doing this.

So I put my tools down exactly about a year ago.

Oh, really?

So quite new because I did this on the side as lots of maybe dentists do. I did it on the side for quite a while and it was actually COVID because I think during COVID, a lot of people made decisions, a lot of decisions about their careers, you know, that sort of thing. And at that point I realised I really enjoyed it. And but at the same token, I wasn’t being able to give enough to dentistry to my patients. I was working two days a week and I had thousands of patients. I’d been in the same practice for 15 years, so two days wasn’t enough. And then the sedation work, which I was doing the other three days, wasn’t enough, you know. It was saying, so you don’t do Mondays, you know, And so something had to give. And then I made the decision during COVID that I’m going to just give it a go and and quit. And it was difficult. I wrote an email to my patients and yeah, the computers crashed because I got so many replies back. Of course, you know, you lose your dentist you’ve had for 15 years.

So when you were going to take that step, did you feel sort of a bit of a outside of the way the patients were going to take it? Did you feel nervous yourself?

I was excited. I’m excited about the you know, what this will bring. I really felt like I would miss the patients. I mean, I’ve been friends with these people for such a long time. But at the same token, everybody was so supportive. Everyone said, you know, they wish me luck. And, you know, it was that sort of thing. And and I people would email me and say, Would you still be like a little mole dentist? So that when we get our next dentist, could we just sort of send you through X-ray so you could.

Tell us that if everything is okay or are they any good or, you know, you can imagine how many people ask me for recommendations, right? Yeah.

And just tell me this. What? What? When you when you’re turning up somewhere, are you turning up with, you know, a bunch of equipment? Yes. So you have.

To drive the elephant.

Packed a trunk? Yes. So I have a really nice little case and I take everything with me that I would need so the practice doesn’t have to provide anything but pulse.

Pulse oximeter, that sort of thing.

Of course. Yes. I mean, all the those things goes without saying. But yeah, all of the monitoring equipment and have some medical emergency things that I keep, but I also know my practices so I know what stuff they have, where it is who does what because we do the life support training for them.

Oh, of course.

Yeah. So it’s kind of nice.

Because I’m.

Well versed with.

But you’re basically driving a lot, right? Is that is that right?

Yes, I.

Do. So I listen to incredible podcasts, you see.


Not this one. Yeah.

So now I’m too old to do music so well. So I started to learn Italian.

On a podcast. You kind of end up doing things like this. I take.

The train for London.

Quite a bit. I have an electric car, so I do drive to London as well. But if you.

Take the train, how do you carry all the stuff? Is it possible it’s not?

No, it’s actually I’ve kind of a wheelie. Wheelie? I’m a girl, so I’ve kind of fine tuned this art. So yeah, I have a little.

Case and it’s quite easy. I mean, I’m little anyway myself, so I can’t carry heavy stuff. So it’s wheels, it’s on wheels and it’s lovely. It has everything I need and yeah.

Okay, let’s get.

Let’s get to sedation itself. Do you only do IV or do you do inhalation as well.

I don’t. I only do IV. Yes.

Yeah. So what percentage of your work would you class as It’s a heavy duty operation that’s going to go on. It’s heavy, heavy duty treatment and you’re just going to give some sedation to make it easier for everyone for them compared to super anxious Patient wants sedation over and above where you wouldn’t normally be giving sedation to a regular patient.

So most of my work would probably be shorter treatments, maybe up to two hours and occasionally. So maybe every two weeks or so, every three weeks I would do then a longer case, something like all day or 4 or 5 hours you start at 7:00 and finish at three and that sort of thing. And for those patients, yeah, I mean, I think the problem we have in the UK is that most people think sedation is for nervous patients. But you quite rightly said there’s two types of patients, there is the anxious patients and there’s the non anxious patients and that’s the area I think that we are. I think it’s a really well kept secret sedation is because that’s the area we do need to be able to offer to patients. And in fact, conscious sedation is considered by the Department of Health and the GDC as an integral element. And these are their words, an integral element for the control of pain and anxiety. And the GDC actually says that this is something that is a duty placed on the dentists and a right for a patient. So it is something that’s been supported for us. But it’s not often that you when I do the KPD, it’s not often that dentists kind of even think about offering it and in medicine, yet we offer it all the time. I mean, we don’t even offer it. We say you have to be sedated for this colonoscopy, you know.

I found in the US they’re much more, much more station going on. Right? When when I was there for my elective, they were, they were doing this deep sedation and then for wisdom teeth out at once, you know, that sort of thing.

Yes. Yeah. So it’s a whole different system in the in the US. But it’s I mean, it’s worth mentioning that in the UK we’re a streets ahead of the medics in this field and we’re more highly regulated than any other medical speciality and we’ve got the safest record for sedation. And that is something that we have in the UK, which, you know, I mean, I don’t want to talk about the US, but you know, they do have some cases, but here it’s because we are, you know, we do conscious, we do conscious sedation. And let’s face it, in dentistry we have something amazing called local anaesthetic. You know, no one needs to be that uncomfortable, unconscious or no one. You know, we need to have something that has a massively wide margin of safety. And we have local. And actually, I find also being a dentist that dentists don’t really want their patients to be knock outs and snoring. It’s quite difficult to work or do good dentistry when your patient isn’t really responsive. So that’s I’m really proud of us because we able to do that here. But you’re right, the US generally are. It’s, you know, it’s it’s very normal thing for them.

So so getting back getting back to the the nervous patient, whose job is it to say, you know, have you tried everything else before sedation? Is that you or is that the their dentist?

So dentists, when they discuss a treatment plan and consent, the patient for the treatment, that’s when you would go through the options, right? Yeah. So you should be able to at that point say, you know, for your comfort, we do have some options if you know, or if they’re nervous to say here are the options and dentists should know they should be well versed with all the modalities and from behavioural management. And nowadays we’ve got great in fact, often for kind of patients who are anxious, you know, they’ve actually got that sort of trait kind of anxiety. Some behavioural management is, is great before and so that’s an area that needs to be explored more. And then of course when I do the consultation, I could judge the situation a little bit too, and I’ll usually say, have you, you know, have you had sedation before? Tell me what the back story to this is and that sort of thing.

So, so, so but where I’m going with it, though, is, you know, if you do try behaviour management, then you know, people, if they’ve had a couple of good experiences, they, they, they improve a little bit whereas you reckon with sedation they get that sort of retrograde amnesia or whatever and they forget. So you don’t actually solve the nervousness, you just it’s just because they never, they never remember the experience. So they just still stay nervous.

That’s right. Yeah. So I think probably one of the one of the things about I.V. sedation is that you don’t you know, you don’t remember that you were really good and everything was really easy and that nothing hurt. So you’re absolutely right. But then we’re able to fine tune that. So I think if we’re trying to work for the patient to be able to wean them off it, which is a great idea, then we should involve the psychologists, especially, like.

I said, if it’s.

More trait.


So it’s within their personality as opposed to a state anxiety, which is how they feel at that moment. So yeah, I think we have to think of it.

As a whole.

Patient. I feel like I feel like modality best practice might be okay for every two sedations you have now should we reassess whether you really sedation is right for you or not? But I can see how that’s not your job, right? Your job is to come in and do the sedation at the same time. I can see how the dentist and the patient kind of the patient, particularly pushed by the patient. The dentist will just say, okay, you want sedation, have sedation. So in a way, it kind of needs to be someone’s role, right, to say, hey, what about not sedation for the for the nervous ones I’m talking about not obviously not difficult.

For example, on Friday, I’m sedating.

A lady that sedated before and she had quite big surgery, sinus implants grafts and that sort of thing and super nervous. And I’m seeing her again. I talk to her. In fact, today she said she’s really excited to see me and we work with this, but this time she’s having a little bit more restorative work. So I said to her, Your sedation will be a little bit different because also people people kind of always think it’s going to be exactly the same and they don’t remember that. They don’t remember that. They don’t.


So that’s also another challenge.

I have to.

Deal with. So I kind of said, so at this time, it’s going to be a little bit different because the dentistry is going to be a little bit different. You’re going to be able to, you know, need to turn left and bite together and left and right. So don’t worry, you know, because people worry. They think, I’m awake, I’m awake, I’m awake. And so it’s that kind.


Education as well, so that they know. And in fact, hopefully she will maybe have a more memory of it. And so, yeah, that way you’re able to fine tune it. But I mean, if someone’s having a horrible procedure, then less is more, right?

So yeah, absolutely. So do you use midazolam all the time or do you use other things? What’s your story with the drugs themselves?

So I use midazolam, single drug, just.

Because it’s just so easy to tighter. It’s safer than, you know, sequential administration of two more drugs, the multi drug. So single drug midazolam is is a simple technique. Multi drug is known as an advanced technique. And the guidelines, the standards tell us that we have to have really good justification in order to be able to use multi drugs. And it has to also it actually specifies that it has to be after having excluded a single drug or having a great justification. And I think that’s really important. And I think maybe a lot of dentists don’t know that they’re responsible for that, even though they are the clinician, they’re actually responsible, after all, for the sedated patients. And interestingly, now the guy the the one standard of care. So it’s the first time it’s ever happened that we have one standard of care, the.

Guidelines, 2015.

And by that I mean that before then, you know, maybe the medics thought they were not bound by dentistry. But with this standard of care, whether you’re a hygienist, you’re a dentist, you’re an anaesthetist, you’re a doctor, everybody has to abide.

By this one.

Standard of care if they are sedating for the purpose of dentistry. So yeah, multi Drug has definitely got a place in sedation. I don’t do it myself, but there is definitely a place for it. But it has to be with justification just because there is a more narrow margin of safety.

So, so just just expand on that question of if something goes wrong. Are you saying the dentist has has more to answer than you do.

And not more.

To answer?

But I think but I think what maybe comes as a surprise is that dentists think just because they have a sedation is coming in.

It’s not their responsibility anymore. You do your job. I do mine. Yeah, that’s right.

And unfortunately, it’s unfortunately it’s not true. And if you are recommending if you’re treating a patient for the purpose of dentistry. As a clinician, you are responsible and there is maybe even a school of thought to say that when you have a sedation is coming in, your practice manager should perhaps you know the first before you choose a sedation is should perhaps ask them to sign something to say that they are going to follow the guidelines so that at least you’ve kind of said, look, that’s what I would like you to do, because, you know, when you’re a dentist, you also don’t want to be staring at somebody to see what they’re taking out, you know, and what the and it’s difficult because a lot of dentists say, well, you know, how do I know? Because I turn around and there’s these colourless liquids, Right. I don’t know what they’re giving. I’m you trust them. And my point is that you just should just be a little bit more aware. Also, age group, I think you need to be a little aware of what age groups can have what drugs. So because we are essentially answerable to the CDC, but maybe the sedation is you may have may not be answerable to the CDC, you see. So that’s.

Where they’re kind of.

Maybe a slight conflict can come in. So overall, my advice would be to just to know some information about.

Sedation and.

Put it involves all really kind of simple, simple things. But before you so that you understand what is what is required and what does the CDC.

Want from you?

And can kids have sedation?

Yes. So under 12 age of puberty, which if you want to call it, have a number under 12, cannot be sedated in primary care. 12 to 16 is considered a young person in sedation and you can sedate in primary care, but with a single drug midazolam only. And that’s quite important. There are exceptions to this. If there is a consultant, a paediatric specialist or consultant anaesthetist, you know, you can mix it up a bit. But for your average kind of dentist, 12 to 16 year olds. So that kind of 14 year old may be having some pre molars taken out. You can sedate but with single drug. And so as a dentist, it’s good for you to know that so that when you are asking your receptionist or your practice manager to, you know, bring a sedation in, you’d say, you know, we have a 14 year old, we’d like somebody that does single drug over 16. Then that’s considered as a, you know, an adult. And whatever is justifiable is possible with. Yeah, absolutely with whoever. So that’s the age group and there’s no kind of upper limit. I sedated somebody that was 92 which is and.

It was like.

Oh but actually you’ve just got to be really cautious and you’ve got to do your routine, normal assessments with, you know, their airways and medical comorbidities escort often is a.

Bit of a problem.

Right? Because, you know, the 92 year old might also have a 95 year old husband in a wheelchair.

So I’ve been caught out a little bit before with escorts because sometimes, you know, you have a child turn up sometimes. I mean, I’m very specific, but I’ve learned this the hard way as well. Well, the other day the other day.

Actually, this lady came just on Friday. This lady came in and and then this what looked to me like a child came in with her.

And kind of had that small, you know, a smile or you.

Talk or your.

Mouth is still like this, you know, thinking.

I don’t know. How do you ask somebody, you an adult, you know?

And then she said and then she said, Oh, this is my husband.

And I was like, Oh, what’s up with that?

But she looked 12. I was like, Oh, you look 12. But then I thought.

I sometimes look a little bit like a 12 year old, so.

You must have to be right up there with your sort of medical histories and complication, drug complications and people with co-morbidities. Do you have is that what the training is when they teach you to do this? Is that where most of it is?

Well, yeah, I get a I get a medical history from the practices. And then I when I phoned the patients, I have two jobs. One is to assess them medically and whether they’re suitable for sedation. And my second, probably more important job is to connect with the patients. So medical wise, though, overall one and two patients are mostly suitable. Actually, a lot of people are suitable. There’s only a few things that are contraindicated. They’re usually things that disturb the brain or the airway. So, you know, COPD, major COPD, sleep apnoea, recreational drugs, that’s usually the bane of my life.


Wife sort of co-morbidities.

Um, but overall, most, you know, a lot of yeah, a lot of patients are suitable for sedation. Actually. There isn’t massive drug interactions. Oh nice. Normal things. Yeah.


So y y y recreational drugs. What’s, what’s the story with them?

Recreational drugs is the bane of.

My life.

Because. So sedation. Actually, this is. This is one of the one of the things I had to.

Learn the hard way, you know, one of the.

Kind of maybe things that didn’t quite go right. You know, there’s always those.

We’ll get to that part.

Of the show. Yes. Go, go, go.

Sorry, Sorry. Then I’ll tell you then. I’ll tell you about that when we get to that part of the show. And then.

And sorry to interrupt. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Yes.

No, go ahead. Um, yeah. So that so sedation is is is sort of.

Midazolam is meant to be both an anxiolytic and a sedative. And the difference between that is one reduces your anxiety and the other gives you that kind of sort of.

Droopy eye, slow sedative.

Kind of feel. They usually go together, but sometimes they don’t go together. You can get.


Without the sedative sort of effect, but sometimes very, very rarely. Maybe. I think the stats is less than 1%. You get something called a paradoxical effect, which is essentially a big increase in emotional release. You get the patients get excessive movements, especially limb movement, limb movements, and you become really agitated. And essentially you have to peel the patient off the ceiling. And that is it can be idiosyncratic, but there is evidence that it has a link to recreational drug use.

And and.

It has happened to me maybe.

Three times in the.

Past 25 years. 20 years.

Okay. And when it first. Yeah. And when it first happened.

It’s difficult because you think maybe you haven’t sedated them enough, right? So the temptation is to sedate patients more.

And so I ended up so I have had this situation where I kind of sedated the patient a bit more and a bit more and it got worse and they got worse. And I thought, right.

Sumo wrestling was definitely not part of.

This. It’s not going very well. And then I immediately realised and it was a young guy, it was like a 19.

Year old and.

I immediately.

Kind of clocked on and I actually reversed the drug. And then it was much better. And so the dentist was able to finish.

And then at the end he said, Oh, this.

Was great. And I was like, Really?

It might have been.

Great for you. It was not great for me.

And I said to him, What have you been taking?

I asked you, you know, I always ask these questions.

And he and he said, What? And I said, Just tell me. And he went, Well, just cocaine.

And I was like, Why didn’t you tell me this before? And he said, Oh, my dad’s best friend with the dentist. Don’t tell him I don’t want anyone to know. And I was like, Oh, God. So, um, so yeah, that was probably.

One of those events where I had to learn things.

The hard way. It doesn’t always happen, of course, but it can do.

And nowadays everybody is.

On something, especially in London. Everyone’s taking something. I have to.

In fact I’ve got this talk to Frank on minimise on my computer because I’ve got to understand the lingo as well. People tell me.

What they take, you know, suddenly they say, I take Calvin.

Klein and you have to know what that is.

What is that? What is that street name? Yeah. What is it? Which. Which drug is Calvin?

Calvin Klein. It’s sort of cocaine and ketamine.

Cocaine and ketamine.

So Cocaine. Ketamine to get mean and ketamine. It must be.


Exciting. Okay.

And there’s me. Wow. This is.

Enough. I swear. There’s all sorts of things. Yeah. Why can’t people just, you know, have a pornstar martini or something like that? You know, like the rest of us on a Friday night?


Just as bad, though. Yeah. Tell me this. When. When you’re sedating a patient, what’s the thing that keeps you? Keeps you up? Like, you know, like a nightmare scenario that can happen? Is it like a cardiac, like something unrelated to it, or is it something related to it?

So those sort of things are never events.

So over sedation or respiratory depression, that sort of thing is a never event. And it doesn’t.


It hasn’t happened to me. It shouldn’t happen. And these things don’t happen, especially with. As you know, we tighter it slowly so it’s something that doesn’t happen. So I haven’t had any medical situations. And also the beauty of midazolam is we have flumazenil, so we can reverse it very quickly. So medical stuff. No doesn’t happen. You know what? I guess for me, the sort of difficult thing that happens, it might surprise you, but the sedation is only as good as.

The local anaesthetic. Oh, yeah. So the thing that’s kind of can happen is when the patient.

Is in pain.

Actual pain.

Because no amount of sedation.

Gets rid of that.

And then and then it’s kind of interesting because.

Sometimes the dentist looks at you thinking.

Should they be a bit more sedated? And you’re kind of thinking.

Oh, but maybe if they weren’t hurting, we won’t have that problem. You know.

Sometimes pain is good because, you know, you want sometimes, you know, with.

The whole idea canal, you know, sometimes actually have an endodontist that has referred me a couple patients because of a hot pulp. Right. You know, some things are going to hurt. That’s fine. And that’s why we sedate the patient so they don’t have that bad resentment for us. But overall, it’s the challenge of making sure the patient’s not in pain for me, I think. And that’s when working with, you know, great dentists or conscientious dentists works. And that’s pretty much everyone I work with, really. And then you’ve got to trust the drug. The drug does its thing.

And but you sometimes.

Gently say, hey, put in, put some more in.

So so sometimes I kind of I mean, thankfully I’m good friends with my dentist.

So sometimes I say, oh, it might be worth topping that up a wee bit because it’s, you know, it’s been a couple of hours or it might be worth, you know, just just a little nudge in a kind of way that is nice. But yeah, that’s probably. But then most dentists know, you know themselves, so those things are fine. And also another thing, actually, one of the most difficult things to sedate for surprisingly, is a scale and Polish hygienist work kind of or perio work or more hygienist work because with perio work or hygienists doing perio work, often there’s local anaesthetic. But when you don’t have local anaesthetic and you’ve got sensitive teeth and it’s the whole.

Mouth and there’s water everywhere and there isn’t.

You know, that sort of scenario is quite tricky for me. I have to kind of be there and but I tend to connect. I mean, my biggest task for me and I think I love people and I love connecting with people and my biggest task is to connect with patients. And I think once they trust me and they know I’m there for them, then half the battle is done and my job is just much, much easier because I always say that people don’t care how much you know, until they know how much you care. And so when you care, you really care. I mean, this is where that whole, you know, humanity, empathy and all these words that we use, this is where it becomes really paramount when you’ve got that connection with the patient. And I try to get it’s hard, you know, doing that over the phone often, but you need to be able to recognise personality types, You need to be able to recognise how to connect. And then when I’m.

There, then.

I once they trust me and they trust the dentist, then the rest actually is really easy. I mean the whole my job, honestly, Payman it’s the easiest job. I absolutely love it. Nothing goes wrong. It’s just such a wonderful thing. It’s a great service. I really recommend for dentists to do it. I have this feather in their cap. It is just especially in modern day dentistry where treatments are getting more intricate, they’re getting treatments are getting longer. Also, patients now want comfort not just in dentistry, but I think people want to be more comfortable whether they’re flying, whether they’re dining. Everyone wants to have a nicer time and an easier time. So there was this whole thing about making dentistry pain free. I think we’ve done that.

You know, we’ve really come a long way.

With our local. I think we need to now really move towards making dentistry comfortable so that we don’t have.

Those results of the Adult Dental Health Survey where.

50% of the UK population said that they had a fear of dentistry and 12% had extreme anxiety. I mean, that’s terrible. And I really hope that with this kind of not just I.V. sedation, but just conscious sedation and all the modalities of it, we can all kind of come together to be able to make dentistry more comfortable for. For everyone.

And for the dentists, too.

Sure seems to me that the bit of the job that you love is that connection with the patient. Yes. Reassuring them and all of that. Because on the surface of it, you know.

First time with the.

Dentist, too.

Yeah, the dentist, too. The first time when I heard there’s a person who’s a dental seditionist, I I’m being totally honest with you, I thought, what a boring job that must be. But it’s not. It’s interesting, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


Aside from that, I always really, at the end of the day, like I said, I’m there to.

Make the dentists job easier. I’m there for the patient to have a great experience. In fact, when I phoned the patients, the first thing I say is I introduce myself and I say, You know, my name is Lolly.

And I am.

Going to take care of you alongside Dr. So-and-so and I’m going to make sure that you.

Have a wonderful experience on Friday.

But it’s interesting.

Because my connection with the dentist is also.

Really important to me because what I would like my aim for the end of that appointment is for the patient to be really happy with the dentist, not with me necessarily. I’m a little bit of a catalyst or an adjunct here, but what I want is for the patient to be happy with the dentist and happy about dentistry. I love that to happen. And so when the patients write a review on the practice website about the dentist and the practice, that is my job well done because that’s what I’m there for. I’m there for the dentist. And and in fact, you know, you said.


Some of the things that have gone wrong. A few months ago I was working with a dentist who I love and is somebody I would go to myself like a great, great clinician. And and actually, I was doing some implant and the driver fell down the patient’s mouth. Quite a big implant driver. And then sort of there was like a little bit of a devastation type of movement on the patient. But the patient was sedated, of course, and it went down. We don’t know where it went.

You know, and and.

There was this sort of massive, I guess, bit of panic naturally. Right? So it was really interesting because I was this extra person, a bit like an outsider, but in there. And so I was able to sort of say, right, we can put the patient up, see if they’re going to cough or not. And, you know, what we’re going to do is finish the treatment. There was no distress. The SATs were normal. The patient seemed fine. So it was the end of the treatment as finished, the treatment that’s organised for them to have a chest x ray? I asked, you know, I sent a message through to reception to organise that. I said, Let’s find another implant driver, let’s take it with the patient. I will go with the patient myself, bring the patient back. You know, all of those things that went around. And then the dentist said to me, You know what? I don’t know whether I would have done all of these.

Things if you weren’t.

There just to just to have somebody else that’s maybe not in the middle of it all or maybe.

A bit more calm and able to.


So sometimes I think it is there. You’re there for.

The dentist, you’re there for.

The patient, you’re there for.

The nurses, for.

Everybody, really. So it is fun. It’s super fun. Not at all.


And you seem like such a positive person yet. And I keep driving this thing about what what went wrong. But that story you just told that’s from from your perspective is a success, massive success story. Tell me tell me about something that went wrong.

Well, you know, like I said, in.

Sedation, things that go really wrong are never events.


No, no. But something, something.

Something to do with the patient trusting the dentist, something, you know, something that went wrong. Come on. There must have been, um.

Well, do you know what? It’s difficult. I guess there’s been. There’s been times where.

I’ve lost my.

Trust in the dentist. Um, at all times. The patient is sedated. Right. So the patient is generally kind of happy. And at the end of the treatment, they’re always happy and they think they’ve had a great time.

I mean, that’s the wonderful. So sometimes I say, sometimes I say.

When when I have a.

Periodontist or.

Hygienist working with a really sensitive.

Mouth that maybe is not numbed up. They said, oh, you know.

What are we going to happen? And I said, Well, the patient’s going to have a great time. It’s whether you’re going to have be mentally disturbed by.

The end of it or not. Well, gag reflex, your gag reflex is is always really difficult.

And I’m.

Always enjoying my seat, going, please, please, please, and trying to come up with like, you know, ear.

Lobe pressure points and whatever I can.

Because gag is one of those that’s.

A bit unpredictable.

And it can, you know, it can go really well or.

It doesn’t go well at all.

And I’ll say.

To the patient, I’ll say to the dentist, you know, you can just do it, get the tooth out.

And you may not have a good time, but don’t worry.

The patients are in pain, patients won’t remember it.

They would have a pleasant experience.

And they don’t have resentment of us. That’s the best we can do. But there hasn’t been anything. I mean, these are all these are all things that constitute sort of not a bad day, but a more challenging day. Right. But I don’t.

Know. I think there’s those imperfections is.

What makes us kind of stronger. Right. You know, I think what is it that the.

Japanese concept, something.

Like Kintsugi, where, you know, the golden joinery, have you ever seen.

That in plates where plates that are broken? And I always think, you.

Know, Ernest Hemingway said that the world breaks us, breaks everybody, right. The world breaks everybody. And afterwards, some people are stronger in.

All those broken places. So all of those days, I think, are just.

Probably what makes you.

Realise and get that.

Experience. I mean, you know, I’ve got a.

Lot to learn. So yeah.

I mean, the reason why I harp on it is from that book Black Box thinking, I don’t know if you’ve seen it. Yes.

I haven’t seen it, but my nephew is training to be a pilot, so I kind.

Of know a little bit about.

Yeah. So but it.

Actually it actually draws a parallel between pilots and doctors.

And and says, that’s right.

That we never learned in medicine. We don’t learn from each other’s mistakes.

Because we hide it. We hide it.


And that black box is.

Thinking is.

Important for two reasons. That plus.

I always.


Also with sedation.

Oh, so this is interesting because some dentists sort of think that, okay, so the patient’s not going to remember. So they have this sort of banter that maybe isn’t.


Appropriate really, that. Yes, not a bad I mean, nothing bad or anything like that, but just about, you know.

Last night they were out or, you know, something, you know.

And I’m.

A little bit I’m a bit sort of sterile.


Kind of situation.

And when I’ve always been like that, even.

As a dentist, I never had personal conversations over the.

Patient’s head and that sort of thing. I like talking in case you don’t notice. But I.

Always I.

Always think when the patient’s there, you know, we have to have a performance. But also these in this day and age, you know, people record things. Yeah. So and I have this sort of personality type that is always really worried about, you know. So eventually they managed to get really nervous about the sedation as well as being nervous.

About, you know, they kind of go, what if, you know, what if you say something and I can’t hear.

You, you know, or.

And then I think a.

Lot of, you know, we have to understand that there might be also a black.

Box. They might put their phone on and record everything that’s happening.

We all have to be really, I think, wary of that. So I you know, I’m pretty good with I don’t like to I always like to keep things nice and light. And, you know, I love people anyway. There’s never any patients that I’d never like. I was always that dentist. They always booked those really awkward patients with because I always think Abraham Lincoln said, I don’t like that man. I must get to know him better.

And that’s a theory I have.

I always I always.

Like my patients. However, nobody else likes them, but I like I connect with them because there is a reason, right?

Why people are the way they are.

And and I think if you cultivate enough curiosity.

In people and you connect with people, you’ll know why people are the way they are. I love those people. Those are the great challenges.

Yeah. So I gave up clinical dentistry ten, 12 years ago, and the thing I miss the most is those conversations with patients. You know, I’m convinced it’s the best part of the job. Of course, you know, the different dentists, you know, into different bits of the job, but for me that was definitely the best bit. Yeah. Let’s go back.

Into your sort of.

Yeah. Let’s get to your back story. A fellow fellow, Iranian. Were you born here or were you born in Iran or.

So, yes. No, I was born in Iran, in Tehran. And really, I’m kind of a self-confessed bonafide.


Girl, really. I grew up in a great, great family. You know, one of those where your mom and dad actually loved each other.

So that, I think, has been really important. I remember my dad telling us, telling me, don’t.

Forget, your mom is more important than any of you guys. For me, she comes first and then all of you.

And you know what? Father says that to their children. So, yeah, I’m one of three, but I have older, much older sisters, 12 years older.

So it was really lovely because I have older sisters.

But kind of was a bit of an only child as well because my sisters.

Came to the UK to go to boarding school. So I was, um, you know, with my parents. So really great.

So when did you come here? How old were you?

So I came with mom. We moved here in 86, so I was ten.

Quite young because my.

Sisters came over after their studies, but I came a bit earlier. There was a war in 86, 85, so I and it was interesting because I went to school well, I couldn’t do any entrance exams because I couldn’t speak any English. So eventually Dad found a small private school in Wimbledon that would take basically well, I thought would take me. But evidently they just wanted to take his money and I kind of parked myself in in there.

And and.

I remember that first day because we don’t have assembly.

And hymns and things like that. So it was the first time that, you know.

I was.

In a class and then everybody goes to assembly in the morning.

With this hymn book. And I thought, Oh, what’s this?

I just sort of took a little.

Notebook with me. I thought, well, I’m you know, I thought it was a little notebook. I thought, that’s what we’re going to start studying. I mean, we don’t have these things. And then everyone starts singing.

And it was all a bit dramatic.

And I thought, Oh, what’s going on here? You know, it was a really bizarre.

Time, actually. I even went to school at half term because I didn’t know school was closed. They must have told us, but I still went. We don’t have half term in Iran, really. So, you know, and I was wondering what’s happening by about nine, 10:00 when no one had rocked up in the.

Whole school.

Was, you know. Yeah. So that was, uh.

That was interesting.

And that was 86. Yeah.

Well, you were saying your first assembly in hymns and I was recalling my first assembly as well when I came here and hymns. It was a very strict Catholic school, very strict, and half way through the year. It’s during the revolution it was 79. Okay. So I didn’t luckily didn’t get the war issues that you had. But then the headmaster shouting at people and he was yelling, Silence, silence. And I thought silence was a person. And I kept on thinking this silence. Such a naughty kid keeps on getting shouted out.


Exactly. Why?

So you remember it?

Well, obviously, because you were ten years old.

Oh, yeah, I remember it well. And. Oh yeah, I was ten, but actually.

The school had a lot of international students. I mean, I wasn’t the only person in this sort of situation, but actually the sort of Japanese people stuck together. A lot of the Asians stuck together.

And I.

Was the only sort of Iranian. So I did sort of spend a few little break times just in the bathroom.

Just sort of sitting on the floor thinking, Wow, I haven’t got any friends sort of thing. Oh, let’s just see how this goes. But um, but actually being.

Chatty and things, you pick up the language very quickly and it ended up being really well for me because I integrated beautifully. And, and also coming from that.

Kind of background in Iran, you were inherently.


You know, your science and maths and all those subjects.

You were already hitting the grades anyway. So then that side of it at least was okay. So it all had to struggle with was, you know, history and.

Geography and Latin.

We don’t really, you know, the complicated things that you really need the language.

So thankfully we didn’t do Latin. We got stuck with French, which is good. But we could we got a lot of similar words, so managed that quite nicely.

And did you live around Wimbledon? Did you grow up around there?

Yes. So I lived in Wimbledon pretty much.

A lot of that time. I went to Wimbledon high.

Eventually for my A-levels.

And Wimbledon is one of those places I feel really nostalgic about.

I love it still do I generally have nostalgia about my, you know, my schools, my university, and just I love my surroundings generally. So but it was a.

Yeah, it was a great time.

I even won some form prizes, but we didn’t go to Prizegiving because again, we don’t have this in Iran. So they called my dad and said, Can you pick.

Up some things out here? And my dad.

Came home with these.

Like mats, plates and books.

And form prize and this and that. And he said, I think.

These you did, you won these. And I was.

Like, what are they? We just put them aside. I was like, What is this? And then I went back to school at the New Year and I had different there was a different people in the year and they called my parents and said.

Leila had done so well. We’ve moved her up two years.

Instead of one, which never happened. So now was in a I thought, bloody hell, I have to start again with this. Only just I only just got to know who was in my year and so and that was kind of interesting. I ended up going to Guy’s when I was 17. Wow. So younger than everybody else.

Wow. Yeah. It’s a bit of a child genius. How did you not.

Find did you not find being pushed up a year meant you were the most junior one in the in that new year. And I know I know someone else told me it was the worst thing that ever happened to him.

Really? Well, it’s a bit of a it’s a bit of a thing people now.

Talk about.

In terms of do you put your child in a year earlier.

Or do you hold them back a year.

And and that sort of thing.

I mean.

I don’t know. I didn’t know what was going on.

Right. I only realised I was young when I went to Guy’s.

I couldn’t drink. That’s when I realised otherwise.

To you, you know, you just in the wave and you’re going forward and managing everything around you. So I had a lot of support.

From family.

And my sisters. Why?


Um, dentistry. Surprisingly.

I’d like to have something amazing to tell you.

Payman but actually I.

Don’t because dentistry.

Is been the only job I’ve.

Ever wanted to do.

Well, that is amazing. That’s actually amazing.

That I suppose. Actually, you’re right. It is amazing. I have no idea how it started. And I even have I even have it right now on the desk somewhere here. Um, an essay. So when I came.

To the UK, you know, you write that What what do you want to do when you grow.

Up? Everyone had their, you know, want to.

Be a.

Transponster or whatever, you know, and, and with my very broken English who at the time I thought it was just perfect English. But now reading back, it’s hilarious. I’ve actually written When I Grow Up, I was want to be dentist. Uh huh. And so it’s been something I’ve always only the only job I’ve ever, ever wanted to do. And we actually had a I remember going to the dentist in Iran and I was young.

I must have.

Been maybe.


Eight. And I remember kind of, you know, having my hand over the spittoon kind of on my tippy toes, which nothing has changed much. I still probably my height probably hasn’t actually changed too much. But I remember looking over the dentist and I was thinking and I said to him, Can I nurse for you? Can I do anything? And I was literally in his face. I’m sure he absolutely hated me. And then eventually he sort of stopped.

He gave some local anaesthetic on my.

To my sister.

He went.

To the corner of the room and I.

Kid you.

Not. Do you know what he did? Can you guess?

He actually lit a.

Cigarette and started smoking in the room. I mean, it was like a total fag in hand. It wasn’t even like, you know, an elegant, like, you know, in the room. He started to light a cigarette. I mean, to be fair, at least he waited for the locals to work, right? And he’s probably got idle thumbs. So he thought, right, you know, just go and smoke. So he actually lit a cigarette and he turned around to me and.

He said, Lala.

Never, ever think about dentistry. It is the most stressful, awful profession anybody could do. And there’s me and my big excited eyes over the spittoon going, What? Um, so I did have that incident as well. And, um. But did you.

Have any dentists.

In the family?


No. No dentists? No medics.

And my parents were just one of those parents.

Unlike kind of the East that never, ever pushed us to do, you know, anything my dad always said? He said, Ideally, I’d like you to be skilled. Uh, he was. He just wanted us to go to university and be educated for him. You know, education was was wealth.

And so he did not.

Mind at all. And so I.


Always wanted to do it. And so it was so easy for me.

What do your parents do?

Um, so my mom was a teacher, as are both my sisters.

And my dad. Well, before the revolution, he.

Worked for the Ministry of Information. He dealt with foreign press, mainly with the country and then post-revolution. It was interesting because.

I was born in.

76, so that whole period was a difficult time, of course. So my dad kind of changed roles. And so there was this in-between job situation.

Where my dad.

Was taking care of me.

As I was, you know, a.

Bit of an accident child, let’s face it. And I had a working mom. My mom was at school and so my dad.

Just took care of me. Basically. He was a househusband.

Until everything settled down in the country. And then he worked for an international company which still exists called If They Do Flavours and Fragrances.

And he was a managing.

Director, so a business really. So we travelled a lot and that sort of thing.

So wow, what an interesting career. To this day I’m obsessed about. I’m obsessed about flavours and fragrances. I remember going to his office in Iran and I’m so I’ve always been so curious about everything.

Whether it’s people or things.

And he had these, um.

These, you know, you get like those cheesy wotsit type things and at the bottom of the packet you get the blue powder. So he had, he had, you know, tubes of these in different colours.

I mean now that sort of stuff is carcinogenic, right? It’s that sunset yellow colour they put in. And I remember going into his office and opening everything and putting my hand in all of this. It was like all over my face and smelling all of the perfumes and. And even now I’m.

Still obsessed.


Food and tasting and perfume.

I mean, flavours.

Flavours and fragrance is very interesting because I’m I’m involved in it with, you know, with toothpaste and. Oh, yes. I mean, number one, we’ve got some very expensive toothpaste. Expensive what we think is great value, ten, £10 a tube. Um, but I love it. Have you used it? So.

Yes. Well, I mean, I was one of the one of the first enlightened fans and yes, absolutely love it. And also I’m a bit of a I’m one of these, like, nerdy critiques.

Right? So at first I was like, well, let’s see, you know, like, let’s see what this is. I didn’t have.

The accent, but, you know, kind of wanted to see what it was about. And so and then but first of all, I loved Georgiana.

She works with you.

Did she still work ten years?

She’s so she’s a big connector. Yeah, right. She’s a big connector. Right.

So, yeah.

She has personal, you know, public relations skills. Excellent.

So, um, yeah, so. And then I said, you know, let’s try this. And I realised, you know, what a.

Beautiful, beautiful product it was.


You know, you literally took out all those, um, all of those.

Things that were.

Unpredictable made this system unpredictable. And you made them predictable. I mean, and that’s genius, right? So I. And the toothpaste and, you know, the the tooth. The the, the tooth. The tooth Sensitiser for two weeks.

Oh, I love it. I loved it.


Tooth serum. That’s right. So tell me about the flavours because lots of patients say about the mints and they don’t like the mint and. Yeah, well.

The thing is, number one, you know, you want your toothpaste to be, you know, nicer tasting than other toothpaste. Right? And it turns out that it’s as much to do with the sort of the. Viscosity, the mouthfeel as it has to do with the flavour. But then flavour and aroma are two different things. And the number of mints that there are is mind boggling. You know. You know this. Yeah. You know this. Yeah.

I do. Because I remember my dad’s office. Spearmint.

Yeah. There’s a whole.

Lot and there’s different manufacturers so your dad’s would be one of them. And then there’s others, right? And then, and then the other thing is, I feel we thought, why mint? You know, why does it have to be mint? Okay, so the freshness thing. Yeah, but why can’t toothpaste be just delicious? Like, you know, like, fantastic. Like, look forward to having it because it’s so tasty kind of thing. And my my business partners never approved me going after that angle. Yeah, but, but a couple of other companies have and I had I had Andrew Dorward on this podcast and they did it. Him and his wife did it brilliantly. Wonderful execution. If you ever tried their lime flavour, they they’ve really done it well as well. Chilli and lime or something. They’ve they’ve, they’ve copied the names of the sorbets sorbets in Marks and Spencer.


It’s like a cocktail. It’s well I mean we could call it, we could call it a mojito.

So someone else has done that.

Someone else has done that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got the mojitos and the gin and tonics. And I thought. I thought I thought the execution on that one wasn’t as good. But it turns out this is the thing that it turns out, whatever flavour you do, there has to be an element of mint in it. For when, when. When you test it out on people. Yes. If there isn’t an element of mint in it, people just really put off. So even if it’s lime, it’s kind of like minty lime. And that brings in in all these new complications. It’s a fascinating field, the whole flavour and fragrance field, the.


Yeah, the whole.


I was sedated for Simon Chard.

And he’s got the.

He’s got the parlour tablet. So he was like, Lolly, can you taste some of these, take some of these and test them out. And I don’t know whether that’s I.

Didn’t end up putting one in my mouth, but I don’t know whether that’s minty. But that’s a.

Great that’s minty.

Yeah. A great concept isn’t it. So it’s all new, but.

So that’s pretty much what I never had dentists in the family.

So tell me about.

Guys, when you first got to guys when you first got to guys, what was your.


I love guys. Love it. I absolutely love.

I really wanted to go to guys Umds It was at the time because it was 94.


Medical and Dental School. I mean.

The United Medical. And, you know, in my head it was the best.

Dental school in.

The world. Of course, you guys people think the guys would tell you that.


What is it? What do they do on day one? Do they on day one, do they announce it? Do they say you are the best, the best, that top gun? Do they do that? And then they just keep on telling you that again and again.

But I think I think I mean, I think when you.

When you first.

In your.

First you know, when you first go to guys.

And and you have.

Harold Ellis, Ian Hutchinson and Lawrence Bannister teaching you anatomy in the Gordon Museum, you immediately know you’re.

In a special place, right? I mean, that’s.

The editor of.

Grey’s Anatomy.

So I.

Just felt very I mean, don’t get me wrong.

Every Dental.

University is.


And I you know, of course, now I. I know.


But you and I really.

Hope that.

Everybody, wherever they go, they feel how special it is. I mean, you know, King’s had. They all do.

But I loved it. And I loved the.

Location because, you know, let’s face it, it’s not Denmark Hill, You know, it’s Tower Bridge. And so, you.

Know, it’s.

A great, great location. And we were all.

Living in Wolfson house and, you know, all medics and dentists.


Back then, London Bridge was not this cool area that it is now. London. London Bridge was right dodgy back then. I remember. I remember I remember dropping my brother off there. Wolfson House was in a proper dodgy place. Yeah. And compared to compared to where I was living in in Cardiff. In Cardiff? Yeah. It was a ghetto. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The place, the place I was living in Cardiff was.

Was much outside of London.

I’m not talking out of London. Out of London. I mean, you can’t beat that campus. We didn’t even have a campus, really. But in London, because I wanted to stay in London. In London, it definitely beat Whitechapel and Denmark. Hill And.

Yeah, everywhere else. Did you not consider leaving London?

Why didn’t you consider leaving London?

No. Why?

I wanted to go to guys and I wanted to. Well, I wanted to go to guys because I did want. I did.

I wanted to do sedation, and I. They were the only dental school that did teach sedation as undergrads. And I wanted to be a part of that. And I wanted to stay in London because I wanted to stay at home. Um, yeah, I loved.

Being at home.

And, um.

With I just, I loved it. And I wanted to live by being at home.

I mean, you know, I still lived in Wolfson house and lived out, but to go back.

Home and I think at the time I didn’t even.

Really I mean, I applied to go to for Birmingham and Bristol and all those great places, but I wanted to go to guys. That was my first choice.

It’s so funny.

That’s how I ended up there.

I’m having this conversation.

I’m having this conversation with my son right now. He’s doing GCSEs and he’s saying, Yeah, he wanted.


No, he doesn’t want to dentistry. Um, but he’s saying he wants to stay in London. Yeah. And, and I’m talking to.


Well every 16 year old who’s just about just figuring out their their lives and girls and and you know, whatever going out and being independent and soon it’ll be driving. These guys aren’t so interested in driving as we were of course at that age you’re going to think, I’ll just stay where I am because I know people. But it’s an error of sorts. I’m not saying everyone you know, obviously it worked out for you, but I would have.

Thought every 16.

Year old would want to get as far away from their parents.

As possible, actually.

Well, not you. Not you.

It means what it means. It means you’re a great.

Parent and you provide a wonderful home.

For free.

So he’s very clever man. Do you want to stay? I mean, I think this is a bit more calculated than we think. Yeah.

I mean, look, I ended up in Cardiff by mistake, not on purpose. I didn’t get in. I wanted to go to London Hospital. I didn’t get in. I failed my grades by one point or whatever it was. And Cardiff said, Fine, yeah, but it was the best thing that ever happened. Yeah, because.

What a great choice. What a great choice.

That whole part of my life, which was a whole different chapters that you and my son will never have. Yeah. If you don’t, if you don’t have another angle to your life.

You’re absolutely right. I mean, I think now.

I mean, if I had to give advice, I would say, you know, just go to.

You know, Glasgow or like just go somewhere like Bristol, Bristol, Cardiff, like all of Bristol. Bristol is one of my favourite cities in this whole country.

I mean, it’s absolutely amazing. So yeah, now I would say that, but and I.

Think at the time campus feel and also all my friends are dentists and doctors, whereas everyone else is normal friends. And you know, so I completely agree with you, but that’s how I felt at the time. But, you know, you’re absolutely right, to be.

Honest. How were you how were you as.

A dental student? Were you like top of your class? Were you struggling at the clinical aspects? Were you party animal or were you president of the Student Society? Who are you? Who were you in university?

I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

And I found it quite easy.

Did you?

So, um.

Yeah, I found the whole thing really easy.

I went to all my lectures.

I got did really well.

In all my exams, and I was, you know.

I was, I mean, you know, I was in that top few, you know, ten people or whatever.

But I really enjoyed it.

And I partied enough, probably not at the time enough. But now, looking back, I should have partied maybe a lot more. But but enough of all.

Of those.

Things. I had a great.

Time and I really.

Got to know my tutors. I still.

You know, I still when I. So in fact, I’m seeing my Cascaria.

Do you know my escudier on on Wednesday.

He taught us and he said, Gosh, I remember you as a student. So, you.

Know, I turned up to.

Everything. I did my quotas. Yeah, all in time or maybe.

A little early, but.

I was there to learn and I found it.

A privilege. I felt privileged to be there. I respected those people that taught us.

And I.

Wanted to.

Learn. And also I have being Iranian, you’re kind of inherently.

Maybe a little competitive, so you always want to do really well. You want to impress and just be do well. And so.

Yeah, which is. Because now when you talk to people or the great great achievers and all the famous dentists, it’s sort of inversely proportional to how well they did at university.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, because really a lot.

With a lot of people, their, their passion for dentistry and their knowledge started after they qualified, which is actually great because that’s when you really learn and when you’re older and wiser, right. To really know what you want.

But I.


Happened. I think I was one.

Of the very few people that really wanted to be there. Let’s face it, it’s a lot of people were there.

For many.

Other reasons than the fact that they wanted to be a dentist. So, you know.


You know, you sailed through school, got pushed up a class, then you sail through through dental school. You obviously find that sort of study side very simple. And I take it you didn’t you didn’t suffer with the anxieties that some people suffer with when they start with patients. You took that in your stride. Did you not consider like specialising?

Yeah, this is a good question. I didn’t. And also.

At the time, it.

Wasn’t something that lots of people did. I don’t know whether you had that experience. It wasn’t.

Now everyone’s everyone wants to.

Do as little as possible.

You know.

But at the.

Time it wasn’t such a thing. And I. I loved it all so.

Much that I couldn’t think of.

Doing one thing.

But what I did do fairly quickly, well, immediately was.

I did my house jobs.

Purely because.

At the time.

It was only you could only.

Do house jobs at Guy’s if.

You were at Guy’s. And so it was one of those things that if you did well, we had a we had an exam called the Oski, you know, the Husky. And then you were ranked you were ranked on that oski and then your house jobs were ranked on.

What you scored.

In your oski And somehow I came.

First in the.

Year in that oski, which, you know, and my academic academically, I wasn’t the best, you know, I wasn’t first, but somehow I did in that exam, God knows. Fluke. And so it.

Was inevitable that I kind of do those house jobs. And so I did do the Max House job, and I did do my restorative. But what I wanted to do.

Learn a bit more about was radiology. Eric Waite, who is just.

Great, the great incredible.

So I did radiology and.

The great Eric Coates, Indeed. So blessed. And and in fact.

He asked me to do the.

Training in radiology because that had just.

Opened up.

And I thought about it because I loved radio. And in fact.

Even to this day, I take some.

X-rays for my dentists.

So those roots, you know, for AIDS and that sort of thing. And I.

See them struggling and I kind of say, well.

Do you want me to take the X-ray for you? You know, if you want to, I don’t mind doing that. So you don’t have to, you know, take gloves off this, that and the other.

Scrub and all this. So I, I love it. But I said no. And then Jemmy Magnus.

Took that role, took that job.

And I said no because I thought, yeah, he’s great.

Um, and.

And Jackie Brown, right. Jackie Brown Incredible. Because I thought, well, I’ve.

Done dentistry.

You know, I love this, but what am I going to do with that? And so.


Yeah, I didn’t do it. And, um, and then I went and did my vet and, and then went into practice. Yeah.

And did you, did you take to practice Quite easily.

I did my vet and it wasn’t a great practice unfortunately. So it put me off practice and a little bit of dentistry because I ended up with a trainer who was not that great and not a great leader, although.

The practice.

The nurses were amazing and I’m.

Still in touch.

With the same nurses from the year 2000. In fact, I’m in touch with almost all of my nurses.

Over the years.

So it was a good practice but not a great leader. And so I.

Kind of was a bit put off it. So then I ended up going back to guys and just teaching a little bit.

And I those were the days where you got jobs.

You know, like in.

The corridor and you didn’t have to apply for things you remember. So I worked there for a couple of.

Years with the incredible Mark McGurk, who is just.

Sending great waves.

Even now. And yeah, and so I and then it was there that I did my diploma in sedation. So whilst I was.

Teaching a bit and doing a.

Bit of A&E and that sort of thing.

I did my post-grad in sedation, um, at Guy’s, which came in really. Sort of handy there. And that was incredible because I was then.

Taught by David Craig, who is my.




Even the queen thinks so because she gave him.

An MBA and Meg.

Skelly Derek debuts.

And now Carol Boyle, who’s fronting Saad who I’m a faculty member for, and I feel very lucky to be there. So there were all my teachers and that was kind of 2002. And then after that.

I braved it and went back to practice. And then I.

Stayed in the same practice for years and years and years.

Yeah. Did you not.

Consider ever buying a practice?

I did. I bought I bought the practice I was working at.

Of course. It’s your practice, right? Yeah. In Docklands. It was.


In the Docklands. That’s right, Yeah. In Canary Wharf.

Um, so same practice.

I, I bought the partnership because, you know, I mean, it was a.

Great practice and I had a great partner in Nagpaul who was just so different to me in every sense of the way that it just made so much sense. I did that for.

But, but I.

Sold it fairly quickly, maybe three, four years. And it didn’t, you know.

It wasn’t really my style.

Kind of being a being a worker bee and a queen bee at the.

Same time.

Did you not enjoy being the boss?

Uh, well.

I really enjoyed I really enjoyed.

Being a leader and having all of.

Those. I loved my staff. They loved.


They we were like a family and I really, really enjoyed all of those leaderships.

But often that doesn’t really match well with the business. So I wasn’t very business.

Savvy, but then my.


Kind of was. So I kind of had the shop floor.

And the peep dealt with the people and he dealt with the more of the business side of things, which I was probably shocking at. So I really enjoyed that. But then.

I tend.

To I had that even.

Without being the boss. So, you know.

I don’t I don’t have this power issue, You know, I don’t need to, you know, I was thankfully as a dentist.

You’re always a leader, right? You’re a leader for your staff.

Your leader, for your nurse, for your room, for your patients, for the technician. You know, I didn’t necessarily need to own the practice for that, for me to feel that way. I felt it anyway.

I get that. I get that. Yeah, I get that. I find leadership is a really funny thing because it’s there is a difference between being friends with your staff and being their boss. There is a difference. Yeah, and I’m very bad at that. I’m very, very, very poor.

Me too.

But my partner was My partner is very good at that. He’s very strong on that angle. And he’s just an extraordinary human being. You know, he he manages to keep it professional and tell people off when it’s the right time to tell them off and tell them, you know, give them praise when it’s the right time. And whereas with me, it’s literally like I’m talking to a family member and it’s like anything goes. But the combination is actually very strong. You know, it becomes like a head, heart kind of combination where you’ve got both in the same bad cop.

Good cop.



There’s some there’s some of that. But it’s funny because our staff sometimes think we’re doing it on purpose, but we’re not. I always think like like, you know, something like, I don’t know, should they take between Christmas and New Years off?

Should we should they have to be off? I’ll say yes.

And I’m well, no have to be off. They have to take the holidays. Oh, they.

Have to be off. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I’m like, that’s ridiculous. It’s building in pain and resentment for. For what reason? Yeah. And then. But. But they’ll be the other way around. He’ll be the other way around sometimes. And what I’m saying is, my staff, our staff think that we’re doing it on purpose to mess them up or something, but it’s not actually sometimes the way it ends up. Um. Yeah.


But that’s great, isn’t it?

I mean, I kind of ended up.

Being the same. I ended up just.

Paying everyone.

Everything they.

Wanted and.

You know, like, everything. But. But at the end of the day, we never had one day sick leave from any member of my staff. Everyone kind of bounced into work.

It was one of those cliche cartoon type.

Practices where even the patients were like, Gosh, this is really like a.

Happy, you know, it was like literally Lala from the Teletubbies.

But it seems like.

It seems like something you wouldn’t exit because it seems like it was fun and it was, you know, something. Why did you have why.

Did you exit?

Um, you know what? Truthfully, I lost my dad. Um, and I think it.

Was an interesting time because you start to kind. I think anyone that has a shock, whether it’s losing someone very special to you or anything, accident, health, whatever you do, end up re-evaluating. Right? Everything about your life. And I thought, I don’t know whether this responsibility, which I really took personally, you know, I wanted to be the best person as a dentist. I wanted to be the best person, the best dentist that nurses worked with. I wanted to be the best person. You know, I wanted the soap in the bathroom. And in fact, you know what? Something that’s a bit tragic but also funny. After my dad died, my mom had cancer very quickly after.

And I remember being I remember being at the Royal Marsden whilst she was having.

Her treatment and.

The phone rang and it was the practice and I thought, I better take it. And I put the phone sort of quietly into my ear and it was my nurse saying.

All the soap is.

Finished in the bathroom.

And we were just wanting to know, you know, where do you want us to get this?

And and that moment I thought, right, I’m this is bad, You know, this is bad. Like, if I’m stressed, if I’m that kind of person that has to stress I am was really bad.

At actually delegating. Maybe, you.

Know, that wasn’t a good leader. Right. And and I thought, right. I’m sitting here in the Royal Marsden and someone else is worrying about the soap in the bathroom. And I thought, right, this.

Is not good.

And that’s when I thought, maybe this isn’t.

Really for you.

And in fact, I did this really.


Psychology of happiness type thing online. I don’t know.

Whether from a Yale University, it was quite famous. One of my really good friends, Saravi.

Who’s a dentist and.

Reads a lot.

She recommended it and I did it.

And and it shows you your strengths.

And your what they call.

Lesser strengths, but things you’re probably pretty bad at. And three of.

My lesser.

Strengths was.

Perseverance, teamwork and prudence in terms of discipline. And and I thought, you know, and then at that point, honest, she was just the most incredible.

Man, soul mate, just.

Human in the whole world. My husband said to me, Lolly, I love you so much, but I’m.

Starting to not like you that much sometimes.

You know, because you have to let go of some of these. So when I lost my dad, I thought.

Maybe this isn’t.


And. And also, in a weird sort of.

Way, I’m I.

It doesn’t.


Me. Dentistry actually really doesn’t make any money unless you’re really a good businessman or you’re really getting in, you know, a few practices and all that. I mean, that’s.

Not my style, so why am I doing that? So and actually, one of our associates.

Really wanted to buy into the practice, so it worked out really well. Nobody came, nobody left.

I stayed on. He you know, nothing.

Changed hands like.


I mean, it sounds.

Sounds like a really difficult time with your with your parents. But outside of that terrible thing, did you feel like this was your first failure or did you not feel like a failure? You felt like empowered, empowered by getting out of it?

I thought.

I was such a success.

Actually, because you managed to get out. It was a huge figured it out.

Well well.

The practice when I was a part of being kind of a leader in it, a principal was incredible. And my staff, I’m still friends with my receptionist who.

Says it was the best time of her.

Life working there.

And people, like I said, people like people. So if for me that is a success, if you’ve made a difference in somebody else’s career, somebody else’s life, somebody else, that is amazing. And I’m mean. It was a great period of my time. I didn’t leave it as such. I continued it. In some ways, not much changed and I still interfered with as much as possible within it.

So, you know, so.

And you were.

Doing you were doing quite a, quite an obscene amount of enlightened. I remember at the time it was a successful practice And you were selling lots of dentistry. Do you remember?


I was doing.

An obscene amount of enlightening because I because if I really.

Believe in something, I never sell anything I don’t want to have done myself. But God help you if I really believe in your product because I am there.

You’re an all or nothing kind of person.

I am there. And and actually, the patients absolutely loved it. And so, yes, I had I had my logo on your product.

It was amazing. And and yeah, great service. Great.

Yeah. So I did do a lot of.

What did you would you consider what do you consider your biggest failure?

My biggest failure. Um. I mean, all of those things are my kind of lesser strengths, but, um.

As no, I don’t.


Don’t think I’ve, I don’t consider any of my life as a failure because everything is. You learn from everything. I mean, I know that sounds really cliche, and I wish I could have some more interesting things to say, but I do feel a bit sort of humbled by it all. I’m I don’t think I’ve. Have had anything, um, regret sort of shaped regrets? I mean, I think regret wise, it would have been good to do some dentistry abroad.

To do some.

Postgrad abroad.

I think I would have liked to have done my American exams maybe.

At the time because my one of my sisters is American, lives.

In Florida.

My nephew, one.

Of my nephews is a dentist in in Florida. And I think, wouldn’t it be.

Nice to be able to have had some experience abroad and.

Just generally abroad? And and because I was kind of such a.

Sort of a perfect.

Daughter student and all of those things, I.

Think maybe it.

Would have been lovely to have a year out.

And do something else I’d like to have done.

You know, I like to have worked in a.

Bar or something, you.

Know, like I like to have done something. I’ve never done any other job. And, you know, I talk to people and everyone’s done some sort of paper round or something. I never worked.

Dentistry was my first job.

So and I think, you know, something.

Like working in a restaurant makes or breaks you. I mean, you know, and.

Graham Norton, Right.

Said that it was in.

Fact in the podcast of failures, the it’s a great one. He said everybody should work.

In a restaurant because you have so much power in a weird sort of way to make or break somebody else’s night. You understand how people talk to you. You understand about.


Personalities. You can really change the night for somebody else, and that power is dangerous. You need to be able to know how to control it.

And so I think, gosh, isn’t that yeah, I would like to have done something else. And now, I mean, I’ve changed my career now.

So, um, in.

A weird sort of.

Way and.

It’s such a niche.

Thing that even the patients say.

How did you, you.

Know, are you a dentist or an anaesthetist?

And, you know, how did.

You get into this? So, you know, I’m doing something different, not quite working in a bar, but still.

Well, we’ve got.

You’ve got your, your other interests, which I found out tonight about, which is your Instagram page. Is it is it only an Instagram page or is it more than that. Um, what’s it called?

Spirits. I mean, it’s like the high spirits. It’s the most remind me the name, It’s the most.

Amateur Instagram page. I’m so bad at tech, but it’s called Spirits Run High, which I think is genius. Right? It’s almost as good as my business name of I.V. sedation. And I did. I’ve always want to say, I always like drinking.

I know I’ve always I’ve always been.

Fascinated by flavours and fragrances and mixology, molecular mixology.

Mixology of putting a few things together and creating something beautiful to the eye, to the taste.

I have this picture in my bar of my dad drinking, you know, holding a glass. And he’s.

Got that face of somebody that has just savoured a taste, you know, that lip and the eyes whilst.

Holding a drink.

Because he always said, you know, taste, taste. If you’re drinking something, taste it. Really taste it, live it.

And now we know, you know, savouring everything, every moment.

Everything is one of the biggest one of the six steps to happiness, really.

And so.

Having that mixology.

And have.

Creating something.

It’s been really.

Interesting to.

Me. And like everyone that has a little side hustle during COVID, I ended up doing a.


Certificate online.

Everyone else was doing Cpds.

And I did a.


Certificate online and.

I then set up this page because some friends wanted to know a few mixes and whatnot and then it just.

Sort of, yeah, grew from there. I mean, it’s literally like nothing. I have like, you know, a hundred followers or something. But, but I love it. And, and actually I am one of those people that comes home punished and I will come home and we would make a cocktail and we would sit.

And talk to each other. And we are blessed with the fact that we don’t have children to worry about. So I really.

Savour those moments.

I savour it for my.

Guests and.

Anish and I do this routinely, you know? So yeah, it’s one of my favourite things to do. Dine and wine.


Well that we’re getting to the end of our time. Let’s. Let’s finish it in the usual way. You said you said you listened to this podcast sometimes. So hopefully you’re ready for these questions. Fantasy dinner party.

I never prepare. So three guests. But. But yes.


Three guests. Dead or alive, who would you have?

Well, you.

Know, I start every dinner party.

With champagne.

Um, and I kind.

Of expect every dinner party that I attend to start with champagne. So my first guess, who better than the grand dame of. That the condom of champagne, Veuve Clicquot.

Arguably probably the first business.

Woman in the world. I think so. Barbe-nicole. Her surname was Ponsardin. She became a widow at 27 with a young daughter.

And a failing wine business. And at the time.


France, I think.

Many places, the only women that had financial independence.



The word verb meaning widow.

And and so she really gave up all of her independence, her inheritance, and she kept persevering. She learned I mean, this was a failing business. She went back to.

Learn more and more and more. And she was really courageous because in.

This is what I want to know more.

From her.





Was coming to an end and trade was poised to sort of start again. And she actually smuggled 10,000 bottles of her famous 1811 vintage in a ship and parked it in Amsterdam ready for that treaty to be signed. And so the day it was signed, she beat every other.


To infiltrate Russia with champagne.

And truth. Behold, the first glass that Tsar Alexander held and drank.

Was Veuve Clicquot. And he said he won’t drink anything else.

And really, after.

That, many widows in champagne like Louise Pommery, Lily.

Bollinger, Laurent Perrier, more recently, Taittinger are all kind of really from that backbone of Veuve Clicquot. So I think she’d probably.

Be my first guest and I would serve her her a grand vintage.

A grande dame.


Did you learn all this on your mixology course?

Do you know what I love? Yeah.

I don’t watch TV, which is very interesting.

So I’m kind of.

Always reading things. Not book, not books.

But on the internet and computers.

And that sort of thing.

But I love stories.

I mean, these are great stories, right? Yeah.

So I savour it and yeah.

So this is. That will be my beautiful.


Beautiful. Never had her before. Who’s your second guest? No.

So my second guest would probably be.

So somebody like.

Sigmund Freud and not well.

For two reasons. Firstly, I don’t know much about him. Actually. My sister’s a psychologist, so she sort of fills in the blanks for me. But I have realised that I’m.

Definitely interested in in people’s personalities and their whys and their past.

And how that.

Infiltrates in them.

And so I kind of really like to know a.

Bit more about him. I mean, he was very avant garde.

And so I would like to know it from him. Plus, secretly, I’m hoping.

He’s going to bring Dolly with.

Him so.

I can just invite Dolly, make the.

Whole thing. Yeah, well, I don’t want.

To waste a space. No disrespect to Dolly, because he’s. Because.

But Dolly is one of those people that he’s just such a.

Crazy guy, right? Like, I don’t. Not really sure he’s going to sit down at the dinner table. He’ll probably probably mean upside down like that.

He’ll probably be like that paradoxical.

Guy right on the ceiling have to peel.

Off. And so but but you know, but quite like to have a bit of surrealism.

In this and so and then my my second reason.

For inviting him is that let’s face it, I mean we both deal with the conscious and the subconscious.

And avoiding the unconscious.


So I think we have a lot in common. So I would.

I’m suddenly I’m suddenly realising why you were top of your class. Fully prepared. Answer man.

I just thought.

I just thought, God, he keeps going on about the conscious and I keep going on about.

The conscious and the subconscious and yeah, probably.

I’d probably serve him. I wouldn’t serve him champagne, I’d probably serve him something a bit more grounded, like.

Something that.

I mean my favourite classic cocktail. Not that you asked, but what would be.

Would be something that something that.

Grounds you, that you kind of there’s some cocktails that you can hold in your.

Hand and.

You’re always going to have great.

Conversation with the person in front of you. And so for him, it’ll it’s going to have to be a Negroni.

No, I think this.

Is this is something where.

You you’re always going to you know, you’re going to have a great conversation. No one drinks a Negroni unless.

They’re prepared to have.

A great conversation. So yeah, that’s, that’s my second guess.

And guess my.

I guess my last guess.

Which which is which. I think every, every person, every.

Person that has lost.

A parent would tell you that they would give absolutely anything, anything to have one more dinner Right. With their parent. So I’m no different.

And so my last guess would be.

Howdy, Sheriff. Yeah.

Um, my dad and he would fit right in because he was a master of, you know, he was a giant amongst.

Men anyway, but he was a master of public relations and just so incredible in a crowd. So the kind of person that, you know, people really listen to. So and.

You know, sometimes you have one of those guests where you ask.

Them to come a little bit earlier. Have you done that in a dinner party where you ask one couple to.

Come half an hour earlier? Yeah. So I would secretly want my dad to come a little bit earlier just so that I can just hug him for half an hour and not let go of him.

So. Oh.

So that’s what I would, um, and probably serve him something like a vodka martini because he was so distilled in every way, you know, that it needs to be.

Like it has such a zest.

For life that it needs to.

Be a vodka more. I mean, he was a bit of a James Bond. Anyway, it needs to be a vodka martini with a nice little lemon twist. Yeah.

So that would be the beautiful dinner party. I mean, I’d love I’d love my you know, I love Anish. You know.

Anish is.

Anish and I are one.

Person. You know, we’re always attached. I’m surprised, you know, if you move the camera a little bit to the left, you probably see him. So, I mean, obviously you want your family, but those are the three kind of, you know.

I’m Iranian now, so now.

There’s going to be like 80 and.

Plus Anish is.

Indian. So if we invite his family, there’ll be about 700 people there.

So amazing, amazing answers, though. Amazing answers, though. I’m struck by how positive you are. Maybe it’s your it’s your delivery. Even when you’re talking about something quite sad, you’re laughing and and smiling. It’s a very unique way of being. It’s very nice.

Um, thank you. I’m very humbled. I think that’s important. And I always used to tell the receptionist, Just smile when you’re on the phone.

Um, because people know, right?

They know how you feel.

I even put on some perfume today for.

You, actually.

Because you know you want to.

Feel good, so.

But thank.

You. Yes.

Let’s get on to two, perhaps. Favourite question. The deathbed. You’ve got your friends, family or your loved ones around you. Three pieces of advice you’d leave for them.

And this is a very.

Good this is a.

Mean it’s a great question because it is it is.

Just giving those.

Advice as a 46 year old, you.

Know, things you wish you knew, right. When you really, for your younger self, think something that I’ve invested in that has been really.

Quite a centrepiece for my happiness. And I think, um, is that I would advise.

You to invest in being time affluent and not. Wealth affluent. And that I think it’s really important. I mean, this is not just me being little Miss Chatterbox. This is very well researched and the actual the happiness of people that value time over money is huge. It’s huge difference. A big difference. So having just having that time to do nothing or to go and see a chum for a boozy lunch or just just have time. So I.

Think investing in.

In having time is my first piece of advice.


Um, I would say the second thing would be to always raise your words and not your voice. It is just something that respects people when they deserve it the least.

And I think when.

We’re sometimes in that low or in that moment, it is so easy to forget about humanity and people.

But I think the more.

You are able to communicate, you can use the words this is really important so that it’s rain that grows.

Flowers, not thunder. So that would probably be my second.

That’s beautiful advice. I’ve never heard that before.

Respect people when they deserve it the least. It’s a beautiful idea.

And, you know, interestingly enough, when I when we go out with people, I notice how they treat people they don’t need to treat well. So I notice.

How they.

Are treating the waiter or how they are treating, you know, like I always say to my nephew, when you go out on a date.

Watch how that person is treating others.

Because they’re going to treat you well. You’re sitting in front of them about to pay for their bill, you know, But.

What about everyone else? And, you know, this is when the.

Patients notice when you treat your nurse really well.

Yeah. Agreed. And vice versa.

So I these things for me.

Are really.

Important. So. Yeah, that’s where that. Back story of that is really.

Agree with that. I really agree with that what you said about the nurse thing because specifically so so so true. How much your patient’s respect goes up for you when you’re respect for your nurses?


What there was was there was there three bits of advice? Okay. So my last bit of advice.

I mean, I’m I’m Persian.

So every Persian is going to be talking about poetry and the epic books.

And this is what we’re that’s been woven into every cell of our body. You know that Payman We’re very proud of it.

We’re proud of this 2000 history. But interestingly, my mom and my dad always said to me, the.

Fact that, you know about your own culture is fantastic.

Everyone should know about their own culture. But my dad said, don’t forget.

What’s impressive is.

When you understand and you learn about other people, about other epic books, about other people’s cultures, That’s what’s impressive. Not really reeling off things you know about yourself. That’s your responsibility. You should know. So for for my.

Last piece of advice, I think is what Lord Krishna said in the mahabharat, the great epic.

Book, The.

Longest Love poem or love? Yeah, in the world. We have the Shahnameh and the Indians have the Mahabharat. But I really love this.

He said.

Do everything that you do. Not with.

Greed, not with ego, not with envy.

But with compassion, with humility, with love and.

Devotion. And each of these, each of these words, if you really savour, savour each of these words. So, you know, when I say humility, I don’t mean just be modest. I mean look inwards, you know, look inwards and and and improve and be better and learn from others.

And I think all of those that’s that.

Sentence that I read really resonated with me because it’s.


Wholesome. And I think if you lead that life that’s both hedonistic and.

Holistic, you know, we all want to have.

Fun. We all want to pursue pleasure. But if you’re able to have that kind of really, um, holistic.

World around you to.

Create that happiness, not to be on that hedonistic treadmill where you’re constantly after that nice watch and the nice car and then this and that and.

That, the next high.

The next high.

Because we know, we know that the reason why.

It’s called.

That treadmill is that.

We know that.

Everybody that that that short surge of surge of happiness that you get we know everybody ends up coming back to that same level. I mean, this is what happens with lottery winners.

This is what.

Happens. This is this is not just me going off piece. This is this is a fact. Right. And I.

Think if you’re.

Able to savour if you’re able to follow what what.


Said, if you’re able to savour those moments that drink that moment, to have gratitude, to have gratitude for where you study, to have respect for the people that teach you to want to learn, to cultivate curiosity. And these are all things I think we should teach them in Dental school even. But to be able to really sit and when you talk to someone to lean forward, to show them that you’re engaged, be interested in people. I think just all of those things as a whole, that is the secret to happiness.

So nice, man. I feel like. I feel like you’re one of the most successful humans I’ve come across. I really do. It’s a lovely to hear that. Um, it’s been a massive pleasure having you. And thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you, it’s called IV sedation, but IV spelt different, isn’t it? Iv. Like the plant. I.v. Sedation.

Is that right? That’s right. Yes. Yes.

That’s right. That’s right.

And and the boozy.

The boozy one was what was that called? The boozy Internet site. Oh, God, no.

No, Instagram. You should. You’re not interested in pushing that one to that? No, no, not that one. Push it. Push it.

Through. It’s run high.

It’s run high.

I mean, I don’t know.

How high they run over there, but, you know, they could run a little higher, I think. But that’s.


It’s been a progress.

It’s been a massive, massive pleasure. It’s such, such a unique story and such a unique person. Really, really lovely to to connect with you like this.

Thanks, lady.

I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say. Because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

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