With errors and clinical mistakes. I always want to reframe it and say, you know, a failure is just is not a success yet. It’s a success in pending because actually, how much more do we learn when we make a mistake? Yeah. Then when everything goes smoothly because we look back and I, you know, I reflect a lot of my cases and sometimes I see something in the photos and I’m like, Oh my God, I didn’t even realise that happened. And then it’s only when you look at the photos and, you know, typical one for ortho is you lose anchorage and you get a little bit of medial tipping of the 60s and you’re like, Damn it.

This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome Millie Morrison onto the podcast. Millie is a dentist I’ve known since just after she qualified. Actually, I think one of the crop of super talented dentists that came out of Birmingham University under the stewardship of Lewis Mackenzie and Lewis contacted me after he’d introduced me. Well, after we talked about Depeche, I’d met Depeche sort of separately, and then he contacted me and said, There’s another. There is another who’s who’s very talented at composite. And we met and really hit it off straight away. And Millie’s been helping us with Mini Smile Makeover. We’ve been to the US several times together at Aacd. And latterly Millie’s really gone into Ortho and Invisalign in a massive way and much to mine and Lewis Mackenzie. I wouldn’t call it disgust, but. But it’s a shame. It’s a shame you’re no longer interested in resins. Millie is now really focusing fully on Invisalign treatment and teaching. Thanks so much for for coming on the podcast. Mills How are you?

Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah, I’m really good, Thank you. Um, sorry that I’ve disappointed you.

To get that far. So really, this, this, this part, right? We used to want to sort of start from the beginning and end at the end. Where were you born and how do you want to be remembered? But then what I’ve noticed is, as I as I do them, sometimes the key question I want to ask someone doesn’t find its way into the conversation. And so now I’ve kind of gone this other way of asking that question early. And it’s a little bit unfair because, you know, we’re not in the rhythm of it yet and so forth, but it goes around sort of success for me when I think about you, you seem like such a like a contradiction in terms in terms of your success is as a human being. You know, I spoke to people in your year. They said you were top of your class. And yet when I met you, you were a proper party animal. One of those rare individuals, those rare individuals who who who manages to carry it all off at the same time. I mean, you’re amazing with patience and at the same time amazing at the work itself. You look stuff up and all of that. And you find with with most dentists, you know, skewed in one direction or another. But you seem to be very good at a lot of things. Have you always been like that or do you remember as a child or something deciding to be that person or what led to this?

Oh, gosh, that is a what a question to start with. Um, so yeah, I suppose I have always done it all and, and even when I was at school, I was very academic. I did a lot of extracurricular activities and I started working really young. I guess the main thing for me is I’m quite stubborn, so if I really want to do something, I’ll get it done and I’ll find a way. Um, and yeah, so yeah, I have really always done it all. My dad used to tell me that I was burning the candle at both ends and they were, they, as parents do, always concerned that I was taking on too much and too much and too much. And at times it has been too much and I’ve had to slow down a little bit. So, for instance, now I have less of my party animal ways for sure, more like ten. But then, you know, the other side of it is working in bars and I’ve worked in bars from a very, very early age. Um, working in bars really gave me a different window into communication and, you know, communication skills because, you know, I dealt with very lovely patient, lovely customers and dealt with, you know, more difficult customers who had maybe taken that one too many drinks, etcetera, etcetera. So you really get this range. And actually, I remember one of my very first jobs was working in a bar in a restaurant in my village, and it must have been maybe my first or second shift and I was probably 16 at this point, so I wasn’t allowed to work behind the bar.

But this young guy who was well known, I grew up in a village, so everyone knows everyone. It’s a well known guy walked in and asked to look at the dessert menu and I was a bit flustered and I was like, Oh, yeah, let me get get it. So I gave it to him. He was like, Oh, I don’t. And then he said something along the lines of, Oh, I don’t see you on it. And I just remember going. Right read because I was like, Oh my God, what do you say? I was 16 and I just remember going bright red and sort of running in the other direction out the back. But now, you know, instead of, you know, quitting the job and not wanting to work in that environment, I really pushed forward. And now if someone came up to me and said that, I would react completely differently. So I think it was quite helpful for me to be in those sorts of environments and pushing myself in different directions because it definitely gives you this, I suppose, elasticity in dealing with different types of people.

Yeah. So Prav puts a lot of his success down to working in the corner shop as well. And he says a similar thing about different types of people. And you know, he’s got the gift of the gab, if you like, as well. But why were you working in bars? Because your dad was in that business.

No, no, no. So I am. I mean, me and my sister started working really early, so my first job actually was training dogs. And then I moved into working in, in a in the local restaurant. I don’t really know why I was working there, probably for some extra pocket money, pocket money. And so I could go out and do what I wanted to do because again, quite strong willed. If I wanted to go buy something, I probably did want to go and buy it and I’d find a way to go and do it. Um, and then to be honest with you, I really, really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the, the busyness of it. And I remember be running around and there would be this great team, this great work ethic. And at the end of the night, you know, we’d all have a drink together, obviously when I was over 18 and, and, and we’d, um, you know, I just really enjoyed that sort of family feel, but that really hard work. And then I carried that on after school. So when I was after school, I really instantly decided I was going to take a year out. I actually had my place at Birmingham and realised I’m just not ready to go.

So decided to take a year out, had no money saved. Then I went and took on four jobs and I was really working from 6 a.m. till 11 p.m. most days within these four jobs to save up to go away. Then I went away. And really that’s the only time in my life I haven’t worked was when I was was travelling. And then I came back and I worked in bars the whole way through university as well to again fund the lifestyle I wanted to have whilst I was at university. And it was really that, you know, obviously we had that family with the dentists, but I really loved having family outside of dentistry, and the girls that I worked with in the bars at Birmingham were still very, very good friends with Now, like they they were a really important part of my life. And, you know, we had I remember, gosh, at university I’d go out drinking till 4:00 in the morning and then literally drag myself, dragged myself to university to sit in lectures all day and then in some ways miserable.

Be top of your class as well with it. I mean, what’s the secret to that? Do you really, really listen the first time? Is that what it is?

I was really disciplined. I came home after every lecture and I wrote up my notes. Like every lecture, every day I would come up and you should. I’ve still got them, actually. I’ve got everything in word documents from those lectures. So I learned by doing. But I also learned by writing and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting. So, you know, those lectures in the good old days when they used to print out handouts, I’m not sure if they’d do that anymore, but you sit there furiously scribbling your notes as the lecturer was teaching. And, you know, it doesn’t it’s not that easy to read. So I’d go home and I would write those up into legible notes in word documents that when it came to revision, everything was neatly organised. I knew exactly where everything was, and my brain works that if I’ve written it out in different colours, I will I will remember roughly well, not roughly. I remember exactly on the page in what colour though that bit of information was. So I still remember A-level when I used to do, I used to do it by hand for A-levels in the exercise books. I can still tell you where you know photosynthesis is and my biology and what colour it is and all those colour codes. It’s just how my brain works and keeps those synapses, you know, going together.

Okay, so I’m interested in two things. What did, what did your parents do to make you that person? Number one and number two, number two. What did your parents do to make you the person that you always going out getting a job? I mean, I didn’t have a job. How come you did?

So.

One might. So my parents were both very, very successful. My mum worked in HR and was very high up in BP. Very, very high up. Very, very senior, very well respected. And she really was very focussed on women in industries being successful and how, you know, women can be successful. And she was a really you know, she really is an inspirational person. Um, and you know, seeing her, I suppose, fight those battles and win those battles and really overcome them, it’s something that was very special growing up. And also, you know, my mum used to tell me when she was younger, when I was younger, that she in the village where I grew up, all the mums and that’s a generalisation, but a lot of the mums didn’t work and she would have more in common with the men than she did with the women. And she found and you know, the women in the village didn’t necessarily like that. And I always thought that was really sad and that my mum had these dreams. My mum was very inspirational and people would judge her for that. And I would most people would say I look quite like my mum and I’m almost a carbon copy of my mum in terms of personality. We’re quite driven and we quite want what we want and we’re probably, you know, more Type A entrepreneur too. Yes, and my dad is an entrepreneur and he’s less he’s in some ways quite opposite to my mum.

But, you know, he has the same work ethic. You work hard. He he always taught me never chase money. He was like, Chase what you want to do, chase what you love, because the money will always come. And also there’s more important things in life than money. And he is he again, he would he was very successful in what he did. He does branding and marketing. And he went from Heinz to Mars, very high up in Mars, and then all of a sudden decided to open his own branding company called Elephants Can’t Jump. I mean, I think that name just really tells you everything you need to know about my dad. And then, you know, 12 years after that, he was getting, you know, getting a bit bored and he decided to open up a brewery with with my uncle. And again, it’s been very successful. And he just you know, I watched my dad to this day and we talk about beer labels and and, you know, the designs. My dad’s eyes just light up when he talks about them. And my dad’s close to retirement. And I said to him, I said, Dad, I just don’t think you should give that part of it up because you come alive when you talk about it like he really does. Exactly. So, you know, I feel like he always gave that that level of passion to to me and my sister as well.

And so somehow, somehow, they kept it real. I mean, I’m presuming, you know, you’ve got two successful parents in the industry. You didn’t have to work, but somehow they kept it real for you and sort of, you know, the environment was that you and your sister used to work all the time.

Yeah, I think well, they definitely well, they definitely encourage us to work. And you know my mum in typical my mum fashion, she, she when we were doing a, an allowance, she, we had to make a spreadsheet of everything we’d spend, we thought we would spend in a year in categories. So clothing, CDs because they were CDs in back in the back then um shoes, stationery for school, you know, if we’d spend any money on Apple Music, you know, iPods were just coming out. But all these things we had to categorise put into a spreadsheet. And she would then say, right. She would tell us if she thought we were being ridiculous. So we’re like, you know, say if we put £100 for clothes for the year, she would like, No, I think you probably spend more like 50. And then she would total that up and she would divide that by 12. And that would be our allowance for for the for the month. And, you know, that really taught us budgeting. So if we wanted to do anything, make anything else or buy anything else, we had to go out and work for it. And I think that was a really nice way of doing it because, you know, we weren’t told, no, you can’t have an allowance. But if that’s that’s all you’re going to have from us, you can’t come and ask us for more. And if you want more, then you’re going to need to fund that that lifestyle because this is what we think is fair. So it worked very well and I’m really, really grateful that they made us that they made us do that or didn’t make us do that. They gave us the that environment where we made that decision ourselves. Yeah.

And tell me about your year off. So once you’ve done the work, where did you go? What was the vacation like?

Oh, gosh, it was. It was fantastic. So we. Well, I went to l.a. I did. It was a very typical UK backpacker backpacker trek. Did you get one of those round the world tickets? Yeah. Yes. By travel, I think it was like really difficult. Really? On the beaten track. Nothing. Nothing crazy. Which probably my parents were quite happy about given that I had. I literally I decided that I wasn’t going. I actually went on a girls holiday to Kavos in Greece, and I had such a good time that I decided I really not ready to go back to uni. I want to go back there and work. So I landed, went on a family holiday and told my parents. Then I was like, I’m going to defer my place. And just so you know, I’m going to go back to Greece next week when we land and I’m going to go work out there for a few months. So that’s what I did. And then I came back from Kavos in October, and then I picked up back up my job, my various jobs. I was childminding. I was working in two, two, two bars in the village and a deli. And then in January, I think I left and then I did Fiji, New Zealand, Australia and then Southeast Asia. Which was amazing. Wow. Wow.

So I never knew all that about you. I never knew you did all those jobs. But it makes a lot of sense now. Yeah, because when me and you used to sit around at 2 a.m. in Toronto talking about how dentistry should be, and you’d say you’d say things way beyond your years about patience and patient care and people. And now, now that you put it in that context, it all makes a lot more sense, you know? All right. So why dentistry? I mean, I’m imagining you were academic enough to do whatever the hell you wanted.

So funny enough, I actually decided I wanted to be a dentist when I was four because I liked how fluoride tasted the fluoride. Yeah. What a terrible, terrible reason to be a dentist. And I remember. So, you know, when it came to writing your personal statements for university. Yeah, I wanted to put that on my personal statement. And my mom was like, No. I was like, But that’s the truth. And she was like, No, like, you can’t say that people will think you’re stupid. And I was like, Oh, but actually, yeah. So I decided I did want it was because of the fluoride varnish. That is what I wanted, you know, from a very young age, like really stuck with me that I wanted to be a dentist. And then, you know, as my personality, I guess developed and, you know, I was doing well at school, it became clear that actually a job in health care would become would probably be suit me the best. And I was deciding between medicine and dentistry. And ultimately I and this might sound a bit crass, but I didn’t want to see sick people every day. I wanted to have some really happy experiences with my patients and I wanted to really be able to see people more than once every five years when they’re unwell. This was, you know, from a 17 year old, 16, 17 year old’s perspective where I was thinking like, I don’t like hospitals and anything else.

You know, they’re not happy, happy feeling places for me. I get it.

Well, exactly. And I just in the end, dentistry felt like a really good fit. It had that flexibility. Um, I have to say, I didn’t really appreciate that there were all these different aspects of dentistry that you could go into. I mean, I knew about them, but I hadn’t really.

Did you shadow a dentist? Did you did your parents not did your parents not sort of say, hey, why don’t you go and spend a week in Shell or, you know, Mars or industry? It was industry. Never an option. Were you never thinking of that?

No, no, no. My I think my parents knew very you know, when I said I want to be a dentist or a doctor, they were like, okay, well, off you go, then. Sounds good to me. Headstrong And I actually went and did work experience with my dentist in the village. Along from where? From the village I grew up in. And I remember I used to get the bus and I used to go every Monday morning because I had that as a free period from school. So I’d go every Monday morning and then I’d get the bus back up to school because that was in another village. So I was there for a long time and it was when the rules were slightly, slightly more relaxed. So I was allowed to hold the suction. And, you know, I was there as like a clean nurse. And it was all very exciting. And actually he was a fantastic dentist. And you don’t really realise it when you’re just watching someone because you’re quite young, young, I think did that from when I was 15 to when I was 18. So I did it for about three years. And then it was only when I went to university and you know, they talk to you about what makes a good dentist or a better dentist or a great dentist. And he did a lot of the things, you know, in terms of the communication, the type of treatments he was doing. So I think I was quite lucky that I had that opportunity. And he was literally, you know, a tiny little village and you wouldn’t really know that he would be so good until you really know how good he was, if that makes sense.

So then in your time in Birmingham, were you what stands out as the best and worst of that period? Because I remember going into clinical like the bit with the phantom heads at the beginning. I was just I just hated it so much. You know? I hated it. I did not like it. Then when I got it, I got it. It was. It was the slow learner. Slow learner. What stands out for you as far as what you loved and what you didn’t love?

God, do you know what I really. I really. I loved. I really loved learning. I really, really loved pushing myself. And I guess I’m quite detail oriented and that and luckily I ended up at Birmingham because Birmingham was quite academic, you know, Dental University. So they quite liked the detail as well. I really loved the the Phantom Heads. I loved the phantom heads. I would have spent hours in the phantom heads. I loved being on clinic. I suppose the things that used to irritate me the most is how long I’d have to wait for feedback from tutors. You know, you’ve got to line up and I’m such an impatient person. I was like, Come on, come on. And. And I loved that. I mean, I loved the support. I remember my first tooth I ever took out was a low right to and my patient was diabetic and was on blood thinners. And I really like quite a lot of bonus, really easy extraction. But this guy would not stop bleeding. So my tutor was like, Well, look, you’re going to have to put Stitch in. I mean, this is my first extraction I’ve ever done, and now I’m having to put a stitch in my hands. You should have seen me. I was shaking so badly. And then we did it. We went fine. And I came out and I just burst into tears because of the like, nothing had gone wrong. In fact, it had gone really right.

But I was so like, there was so much adrenaline going through my system. Like I was shaking and I cried and bless him, he just came over and gave me a massive cuddle and he was like, It’s absolutely fine. So we really had that lovely support from from the tutors. And, you know, Lewis Mackenzie has been instrumental in my, in my confidence, in my abilities and in my career because he introduced me to you. He introduced me to ads who I still work with. And he’s been he’s been fantastic. And I was so lucky that I had him for my second year all the way up to my fifth year. I suppose the things I didn’t like is I actually found working in a hospital quite challenging for like a few different reasons, but I did find it quite challenging, like the actual hospital setting. And when I came out of university I was applying to go to the Army because I thought that if this was what dentistry was like in a hospital, it’s just not going to be for me. So I was applying to go to the Army and then when I got to vet and worked in a practice, then I really loved working in a practice and withdrew my application. But I found the hospital setting quite challenging and I think it was to do with sort of the it was quite slow paced, but also the different areas were quite cliquey.

So you had, you know, it was they didn’t really gel together. Everyone was very separated. And I don’t know if that’s the case now, obviously, but it felt quite cliquey and I didn’t really appreciate that. So I was going to go off and go to the Army again. My parents weren’t greatly happy about it, but they did say, You know, if this is something you feel you have to do or if you go, we want you. You know, in the end, I enjoyed practice. And the other thing is, is that I saw I think it was my medical exam. It was one of one of one of the hurdles you have to go through. And I was sat at the back of the hallway and I was watching the back of the hall, sorry. And at the front there are all these kids, 16, 17 year olds being told that they’d been accepted. And they were so happy, like, they like jumped up and they were like, Yeah, I remember looking at them and like, God, I really, really don’t feel like that. Like, I really don’t feel like that. And I was like, I’m doing this for the wrong reasons. I’m doing this to escape something rather than because I really want to do it. And so, you know, that really compounded and the fact that I was now enjoying dentistry and practice to withdraw the to withdraw the application.

And the city of Birmingham itself. Were you were you like aware of it? Of course you were aware of it. But had you been there a lot? Did you know it? Were you aware of it? So did you know it?

Did it shock you particularly well? Um. Well, do you know what I’ve always found really strange is that people were like. Birmingham is the second biggest city in in the country, but it doesn’t feel that big. I feel like a lot of that is to do with the suburbs around it. Um, but I wasn’t that aware of it. My mum went to Birmingham actually, and my granny was a nurse in Birmingham Hospital and she lived in Droitwich, which I believe is just around the corner. My geography is terrible by the way, so even though I have lived, I grew up just outside London. I’ve lived in London for many years. I still struggle with where things are.

Because you’re not, um.

It’s. It’s my. It’s my weakest, weakest point. Like sense of direction, geography. Terrible. So my mum lives in the States. She lives in Florida. And I remember we were around the dinner table and I had somehow got Florida confused with, you know, that little, um, I think it’s like a the outfit of LA or California. And I honestly, I was so confused as to where we were. And I’ve just got my mum. Oh, I know what you’re talking about.

You’re talking about my.

Sister.

Baja, Mexico or something. That peninsula that sticks out the other side. Yeah.

Yeah. I just got it confused in my mind. Like, it was like my sister’s really intelligent. My mum’s really intelligent. Bill, my mum’s husband is really intelligent. They were looking at me like, You’re an idiot. I was like, I’m so sorry.

So what was your.

I was just sort of aware of Birmingham.

Where was your where was your job?

South west London in Enfield. It’s a really, really good shooters. So I was lucky. I had two. One was a prosthodontist, one was an oral surgeon. Very different personalities, one, you know, quite energetic, quite loud, like me, quite extroverted, and the other was quite introverted. And it was a nice mix because, you know, I got to see different points of view and different techniques and different ideas on the treatment planning side of things. And I mean, we had so much fun, like our lectures on a Friday and the, the group of people that we had just gelled really, really well. And I’m still very good friends with a lot of them. And um, we would finish lectures or that the lectures for the day and we would go to the same bar every week. I’ve probably spent all of my wages that year. My annual income at this particular particular pub, the castle in Tooting. Um, and we just had an absolute, a fantastic time. So, you know, we were having a great time in practice because of the support. And I was, you know, it was a really, really nice practice. And then we were just having great fun at the weekend, creating all these new friendships, lifelong friendships. So I was very, very lucky. I was very, very lucky to be end up where I was.

I think. I think, you know what? It’s a brilliant year. If you’ve got a good practice and it can be the opposite if you haven’t. But, you know, when I when I’m talking to young dentists now, I always worry or I always warn them about the year after vet because the year after vet is very sort of isolating you suddenly a normal person, Aren’t you going to work every day in that one room with your nurse? Whereas just it just seems like an extension of union and weird way, like a fun little way. Like you say, you’re meeting new people, you’re learning things all the time. But I think that initial launch pad, I was very, very lucky with my I mean, I put my boss, I put that down to like almost everything I’ve done with Enlighten down to him because he was just one of these guys who wanted to to find out more about stuff. But it sounds like you had a similar thing. They had like a like a good launch pad. Do you remember others who didn’t? Because I do. You know, my partner had a terrible first job. Terrible because I hated dentistry after that. It’s difficult, isn’t it? Some people have. I think that first year is so important that it can, like, make or break the direction of flow, you know?

It’s yeah, it’s definitely really important. And, you know, we were quite we I don’t know how I don’t know if it’s still the same but we, we got ranked and then we went and we, we interviewed so each tutor would have like 15 minutes with each prospective student of, of the, of that region. So it was quite nice because then you ranked them on who you liked the best and who you got on with. So I think that was quite important because it wasn’t just done on your grades, it was done by a personality match as well. And I don’t think that’s the same now. I think it’s now really just on your ranking, isn’t it? I think they might have changed it.

Yeah, I think it is. I think you’re right. Yeah.

But that that getting on personality is really important. I mean, I speak to a lot of young dentists and there’s a massive mix bag, and I genuinely believe that all the tutors want to be able to pass on their knowledge, otherwise they wouldn’t be a tutor. And I believe or would hope that the students want to you know, they’re just newly qualified dentists would want to, you know, get as much information out. But there has, you know, different people work well with different people. So I do believe that like that personality point where you get to meet them first was a crucial part to why we you know, I had such a great year.

Let’s talk about Emily. Do you get do you get contacted by a lot of young dentists asking for advice?

So, yeah. So I speak to a lot of young dentists, I think naturally, because I’ve been, you know, sort of teaching Invisalign go for the last sort of five years. I speak, you know, I see a lot of dentists see me. Yeah. And I, you know, I always say like, please reach out. I’m always happy to help. And they do, which is fantastic about range of things. Sometimes it’s about Invisalign, sometimes it’s about, you know, career progression or, um, what courses they should be looking at. Or they might have had a difficult situation with the boss or they’re trying, you know, they want to leave and they’re looking for the next step. Um, not, not necessarily just young dentists, some older dentists as well, mainly younger dentists. Um, which is nice.

I love helping. I’m going, Yeah, yeah. Where I’m going with it, though, is I get contacted by a bunch of people. I get contacted by a bunch of people who think I’m like super successful at business and so I can help them be, you know, I’m not. And they’re you know what what, what, what the funny thing is, this is this is my question, right? It’s a massive responsibility to answer those questions. And both of us, I think, are kind of people pleasers. Yeah. Like I want to please whoever, whoever it is, it could be a first. It could be a fourth year dental student or it could be, you know, I’ve had a guy contact me about he’s got an invention and he wants to put it to market. It’s a massive responsibility to give an answer. I think the important part of giving that answer is to sort of. In a gift of sort of health warning with it that, you know, this is just like my opinion is, you know, it’s difficult because because, you know, you know, the guy was asking me about patents. You know, I don’t really believe in patents personally, but that might be completely the wrong advice for him. Or I’m telling young dentists not to do not to do a bit of everything and then decide, you know, I’m telling them, pick something early, very early and run with it. And I have I find myself now thinking, well, you know, this is just my my particular slant. And same question to you might give a completely different answer. And it’s important someone gets, you know, understands that just because you’re you or I’m me, we haven’t got the answers to all the questions. Yeah.

That’s true. And, you know, our own experiences will greatly warp our view of the world. You know, there’s always that great saying, you ask ten dentists for a treatment plan, you get 15 treatment plans. And it’s not just the treatment planning side of it, the clinical side of it, it’s the non clinical side of it as well. Like what’s important, how you should, you know, in inverted commas, sell or communicate with patients. Like everyone has their own tips and tricks, but really. The important bit is that, you know, yes, they’re asking maybe your advice, but maybe not only your advice and also having a little bit of common sense. Sometimes people have advised me to do something. In my mind, I’m like, Mm, I don’t want to do that. So no, and I’ll go do something else and it’s not. But actually having that different opinion doesn’t mean that you don’t do it. It just means it’s a difference of opinion and it might make you feel stronger about what you want to do or it might change your mind. You know, just because you’ve had a certain opinion doesn’t mean that that’s what you’re necessarily going to go and go. And do you know, for instance, you know, if you think about me in composites like Lewis Mackenzie was like, oh, you’re going to be fantastic at composite. And and you know, let’s not lie. It’s really nice to be told you’re good at something. It gives you a lot of confidence and you want to go and do it. Do you know what my first report card from Ortho was at university? Disinterested. Do you know why? I was just interested? Because it was 9 a.m. on a Thursday and Wednesday nights were meet you. So I was always tired and I was disinterested in the subject and it wasn’t really taught. So I.

Found undergrad. Also teaching was very poor anyway, in Cardiff, I don’t know about in Birmingham, but it just wasn’t they, they, they didn’t really explain anything to us man did they. How was it in Birmingham. Did they. Was it a good, good grounding.

Well I wouldn’t want to say anything too negative, but I found watching teeth move around, wax in hot water, really quite soul destroying. So and you know, it wasn’t as hands on or there wasn’t as many opportunities, you know, as it were in other disciplines. But, you know, I was always told you’d be very good at composite. You love composites. And I really could have run with that. But, you know, the more I did them and the more I tried to do, you know, did all the layering and this I did enjoy it, but I wasn’t I wasn’t really passionate about it. I didn’t go home and read about it. And I remember speaking to Dipesh and he was like, Yeah, I lie in bed looking at teeth. I was like, really? Like God was like, I couldn’t think of anything bloody worse. When I’m in bed. I wanted to be like, you know, cuddling the dogs or watching Netflix. And so and then and honestly, then I started doing ortho and I found this, like, massive passion. And I was like, I love it. Like, I really love it. And not only do I like it, but I want to be the best I can possibly be at this. And, you know, now I go home and I read books and I read journals and I read papers and I, you know, spent masses on postgraduate education because I want to know as much as I can. So, you know, when I was asking advice from from people what, you know, for instance, Lewis Mackenzie or you probably said, you know, do compost because you’re good at it, but actually that in some ways made my mind even stronger that just because I was good at it doesn’t mean that I want to do it. And actually, I want to go do something that I really love and I want to learn about and I want to become really good at it.

So I was listening to the your podcast with Qadhi, and you said, I can’t remember exactly, but you said like it was it was a very short amount of time before between your first Invisalign case and your first course that you taught on Invisalign like a year or something like this. Yeah. So, so, so you must immediately realised I love this. And then did you go off and start like researching like hell to, I mean how did you become a teacher of it within a year of doing your first case?

So was it a year? Actually, I was. I was actually I was not I was not a quick starter, and I’ll tell you why. So I like to understand things. I really like to understand things. I really want to understand something. You know, to go to the wide, the wide, the wide, the wide, the wide, to feel like I understand the very first why. And oh my gosh, revising was a nightmare because it would take me so long to get through a topic because I’d be like googling and searching for the last wide find. Yeah, just to understand the first concept. And but when I first started doing Invisalign, I was actually one of the first cohorts through Invisalign, you know, Invisalign go actually. And I went, I was working in a practice and all the treatment planning was done off site. And I mean, I think that’s a great service service, but for me. I for me, for my personality didn’t work, like it really didn’t work because I didn’t understand what was happening. And ultimately I was doing PR and putting attachments and I had no really true understanding of what was happening within the plastic or within the tooth. Aligners And I actually left that practice because I moved house and, um, and it was just, you know, it was just a nice. Was that a.

Practice?

Yeah. Yeah, it was fantastic practice. Practice, like really, you know, advanced in terms of this level of care and everything, but Dental Dental in the end, Yeah. And I really, really love working there with Avi and the team, but it was two hours of practice, three different buses. Yeah. Really gorgeous practice. Yeah. And I did try, but two hours on three different buses and nearly killed me. And in the end I went and, and moved to the other practice. I was working at part time, full time, but I had no understanding of the system. So I stopped doing Invisalign and I started doing fixed because I understood, fixed. You know, I could really understand the biomechanics. Um, and I could see it, I suppose it was, it was, I felt like I could feel it with my hands. And I’m quite, you know, touchy feely. I could feel it with my hands instead of it being on a screen. And I was doing loads of fixed and then all of a sudden, um, you know, my Invisalign, Invisalign territory manager popped up who got really, really well with and she was like, Why are you doing so much fixed and you’re not doing Invisalign? And I was like, Well, I feel like I can understand it and I’ve got more control. And she said, okay, I understand that, but let’s take it back. Let’s, let’s do some like do some really simple cases. Here’s the help, here’s the support and, and see how you like it. And then honestly, all the issues I had with fixing because, you know, fixed I do fixed for me when you put the wire on, sometimes you feel like you’re firefighting because you put the wire in and then you see them four, six weeks later, you’re like, Are the teeth exactly where I wanted them to be? Or am I going to have to now tweak this and tweak that, etcetera, etcetera.

Um, whereas, you know, when you’re, you’re planning things digitally, actually you’ve got lots of control, not just over where the teeth finish, but how the teeth get there. So like round tripping thin biotype things like this. Um, and I just started building up really slowly with really simple cases. Um, and it was massively successful and I really, really loved it. And I was asking for help and I was asking for support, um, and getting some really fantastic results. And I was always sharing that with my team. She was, you know, when we got on really well, we’d go out for dinner and drinks and she would come to the practice and she actually started bringing round these random people from Invisalign who just happened to be with her for the day. And they’d come in my lunch hour. And let’s be honest, I was working the NHS at this point. I had my hair in like the messiest bun on top of my head. My makeup had probably sweated off by that point. I looked a bit bedraggled and I’m not like the neatest person ever anyway. And um, in terms of looks.

This is Kentish Town, right?

Yeah. Um, and most of the time, because I was balancing the NHS and really driving through with this author, I was working early, I was working through lunch and I was working late to try and balance it all, hitting targets.

You were working hard. I remember when I came to see you. Even even when I came to see you, I remember you running around, jumping between patients and opgs and whatever it was.

Oh, of course. Yeah. I worked. Really. I was working really, really hard, actually. Anyway, she was bringing all these people and they weren’t random people. They. They end up end up being like head of marketing for a mere for Invisalign and all the, you know, all these big shots of aligning technology and they liked the cases. She was like, oh, show them some of your outcomes. Show them what you’re thinking is show them this. And you know, in my way, chit chat, chat away, not really thinking anything of it. I honestly thought that some of them were TMS in training, and these are people who are like the driving force of Invisalign through EMEA.

And.

Oh, so naive. Um, and anyway, they were interviewing me, but she hadn’t told me because she didn’t want me to be, you know, overwhelmed I guess would be. Yeah. So then they liked my personality. And, you know, let’s be honest, I was a young female dentist who who was being, you know, having lots of success with the Invisalign product and getting good results, you know, not just going doolally with it, but taking my time in terms of, you know, planning and everything. And so yeah, so they onboarded me really quickly and gosh, I always say that Invisalign changed my life. And always sounds such a corny line. I do know that, but it did because I made that conscious decision to do more Invisalign. I remember, you know, when you do the enlightened training and you said Whitening Wednesdays. So I talk about you and Whitening Wednesdays when I’m when I’m talking to my sort of delegates. Because if you talk, you know, you said if you talk about whitening to everybody, you will do more whitening. I remember I got to talk to everybody about Invisalign and I will do more Invisalign. And that’s what happened. And it really changed my life because not only did I move out of the practice, you know, the practice into into private practice, but I also got this opportunity to speak and to educate. And I found my second passion through that. And bearing in mind that when I went to the social sector in Birmingham University, when I had I remember it so clearly Payman it was awful. You had to give a speech and I was shaking. I was bright red and I barely made it back to my seat because my legs were shaking. I can’t imagine. So to go.

From.

Oh, was I was so nervous. But to go from that to to, you know, going all over the world like it’s been such, such an amazing journey.

Yeah, Yeah. So. So listen, a lot of that kind of stuff is to do with getting out of your comfort zone, isn’t it? You know, and, and growth growth comes from getting out of your comfort zone. And yet in the moment, in the moment that you do something that’s out of your comfort zone, especially someone like you, who likes to be in control, must be really difficult for you. Like, you know, like you were saying, when that when you had to put that suture into that tooth. Yeah. That first time where you’re not in control of what’s happening. And by its very nature, the first time you gave a lecture, the first time you did Invisalign, the first time or the many times that you do things slightly differently, they must all cause you like massive internal anxiety because you’re the kind of person who, like you said, wants the full detail on everything, wants to know exactly how things are going to turn out, How do you square that circle?

So that’s actually it’s really interesting. I suppose I’m slightly addicted to the like to the high of learning something new. Like I really I love it. Like that’s it’s quite an addictive thing to be, to learn and then to learn something else. And you know, when you reflect on the case, you’re like, Oh gosh, like, I didn’t do that and I should have done that. And now I know I need to do that. And you get better and better and better, and I find that quite addictive. And also one of the things I’ve learnt and I’ve been taught by my own sort of mentors is that when you feel uncomfortable, when you feel that fear, instead of trying to lean away from it, which is our natural reaction, is to lean into it. Yeah. And really lean into it. And it’s tough because you’re naturally wanting to run the other way, but you’ve got to lean into it, lean into those difficult, difficult scenarios, the things that you find most challenging, and then you grow. And sometimes I have like these butterflies in my stomach. I’m shaking. I feel so nervous and like the other week I did a TED Talk where a TED type talk and, you know, normally when I lecture, I have my screen, my presentation, I’ve got my slides and I’ve got my clicker in my hand, and that’s comfort. And this TED talk talk was 20 minutes. No, no slides, no clicker to a room of dentists who had done the diploma in clear aligner therapy. So, you know, the challenge there was to also find something to make them think and to, you know, to not just, you know, something different and slightly different point to point in the view. And oh, my gosh, even though I will go up on stage in front of hundreds of dentists in different countries and talk with my slides and my clicker, that was not that was the barrier. I was really, really nervous and I was shaking. And before I was stood there at the back of the auditorium doing my power poses from Amy Cuddy.

Like literally just to make yourself feel better. Oh, gosh, yeah. I was there. My hands in the air, my hands on the hip. I was deep breathing and I was doing these items.

I was like, I am confident. I am capable.

I am going to nail this. I was like, I had.

This mantra going through my in my head because it was so out of my comfort zone. And and the whole time my legs were shaking. At one point I was like, I can’t feel my face. Like my face had gone numb.

Everyone enjoyed the talk. Like, you know, I got great feedback from it.

So it came across well. But internally, you know, just because someone.

Looks like everything’s.

Fine and smooth.

Doesn’t necessarily.

Mean everything.

Is like we’re, you know, we’re.

All growing. And Ramon, who asked me to do that, he said, I’ve asked you to do it because I know it’s going to be difficult for you, but I want you to grow.

I mean, I’ve obviously done a bunch of events with a bunch of speakers, and what I always tell them is if you’re not nervous, something’s wrong. You know, before a big you know, if you’re stepping out on stage, it doesn’t matter how many times you’ve done it at that moment, you you know, it’s just I mean, we all know that the Simon Sinek thing about nervous and excited being the same chemical translated in different ways, and I understand all of that. But being a bit nervous before a talk is sort of normal. You know, there’s a, there’s, there’s nothing to be worried about there. I’m quite interested in. You work at Chris Hall’s practice to be asked by Chris or to apply for a job. Is that how it worked? Did he. Did he. Did he did he ask you? Yeah. Given to be given that job when there’s hundreds of dentists going through, you know, that course. So did he tell you what did he see in you that made him sort of ask you and the handful of others who’ve worked at that practice?

He said he does say he knows I did the reading every week because he’s a stickler.

He’s a stickler for that.

And, you know, actually, funny enough.

You’re the one that told me to go for the course because if you remember back then, they wanted two years experience out of out of dental school and I only had one. And you were like, you need to do it. And I was like, Really? But and, you know, rule following me, I was like, The rules say that I shouldn’t. And I emailed Zenith and I was like, Is it.

Is it okay if I apply? And she and she was like, Yes, we do want we do like to, but if you want to apply, then you think.

You can do the work then? Absolutely. Because it’s not necessarily the two years experience. But I think they really want to make sure is that you have the ability to put into practice what they’re teaching you straight away. And, you know, sometimes your first year out of dental school, that’s like, that’s just not going to happen. But it was I mean, it was a great opportunity. And I remember I was so honoured.

Yeah. I mean, look, it’s an extraordinary course, which is why I advise you to go on it. But how soon was it straight after the course that they said, Hey, come work?

No, no. It was a couple of years later. So I did the course. I did the course 2016, 2017, and then I joined the team in March 2018, I believe. Or maybe maybe it was March 2018 or March 2019. I think it was 2018, but don’t hold me to that. But he he was Chris. He Chris was coming to do a talk at one at the end of the Invisalign days and I was co-presenting as sort of a lead in to the into teaching. So actually it must have been March 19th and he sat at the back and we were looking at a case together because I just asked him if he wouldn’t mind having a look at a case. And then he did his thing and we were walking out together and he was like, you know, do you do you have 1 or 2 days you can give me? And I was like, Yeah, Again, I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m so nervous. But okay. Yes.

And then eventually I had a.

Presentation together with my cases and sit there with him and going through on this massive screen. Um.

But what an honour, What an honour.

Did you, did you feel, did you feel the way you would expect someone to feel in that moment when Crystal says, Come work at my practice?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think the first thing I did is I came like ran home and called everyone called. I called everyone. I was like, Oh my God.

You’ll never actually actually know. Do you know what? I’ve just realised what happened. So I we actually went to the theatre that night round the.

Corner and.

I remember.

I can’t remember what we saw, but I remember meeting my family and everyone there and us getting, you know, the little bottles of prosecco.

You can get. I’ve got one of those each. And we did a cheers and.

And no one, none of my family, no one knew who.

I was like Chris Chris always just asked me to go to like go for an interview and go for a job. And they’re like, He was Chris Oh. And I was trying to explain. I don’t get it. They had no idea. But anyway, they still got like, we still got a little thing of bubbles.

You know, for what it’s worth, for what it’s worth, I’ve been proud of you many times in your career, but when I heard that, I don’t know why, I. I was very, very. I was probably more proud of you that day than than any other day, because I’ve known Chris and Zayn for a long time and they’ve got very high standard. Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the difference between working I mean, adarsh mega entrepreneur, maybe the least sort of emotional person I’ve come across when it comes to, you know, I’m sure he just wants you to make people happy, end of story. Do whatever you like, make people happy. Um. Chris or, you know, I’m sure his practice is full of systems and processes and everything has to be exactly done his way. And then, and then the family business, which was, you know, gentle Dental with so many different branches and so many different people inputting, you must have learned something different from each of these, right?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely very different places.

So it’s such a pleasure.

To work in different in different practices under different bosses who have different approaches to things. And it you, I mean, you just get introduced to different ways of working. So you know, yeah, ads is like super, super laid back. And when I went to Chris, you know, it was a bit more of a shock because they, they wanted to like check, check the letters and, you know, look at, look at our treatment plans and a lot more detail. And at first I was a bit I was a bit like, oh, so you don’t trust us?

But actually how stupid was I to think that?

And also kind of egotistical isn’t the right word, but, you know, that sort of thing. Like how I mean, the reason they wanted to look at the treatment plan isn’t so that they were checking up on us, but it was to give us this opportunity where they would look at our plan and say, Yeah, okay, well, this is a really good idea, but have you thought about it this way and have you thought about it that way? And what about if you did this and did this and did this and again, they just instead of you following the same protocol for every patient, they would bring in different you know, Chris and Dana saying it’s less clinical. But, you know, they’re both pull in different ways of looking at the case ten times better. And, you know, you just learn so much that way. So yeah, systems and those processes in place, but it’s still both approaches are there to support and to guide you and to and to make you better. And it’s just different ways. But then I remember doing my first full mouth rehabs adds his practice and him helping me, talking me through, going through everything. So, you know, again, I’ve been very lucky in terms of in terms of my principles, in terms of my therefore mentors and the different approaches, because it’s given me the opportunity in the space to try different things and to really work out what I like to do and how I like to do things.

Yeah, to have to have someone like Chris or on hand to ask questions must be a massive learning thing. I mean, to have your cases all sequentially going through him, you must you must learn so much from that dictionary encyclopaedia. I should say.

Honestly, his mind works in a completely different way. I mean, to anybody else’s I’ve met and the way he puts things together and you know, sometimes I feel really, really, really stupid because I ask him the same question about five times. But, you know, he’s really patient. He’ll explain it and he’ll explain it and he’ll explain it and he’ll sit down. And I remember, you know, I had someone come in and they’d had direct to consumer aligners and their occlusion was a mess. And so we were setting it up the articulators and we were, you know, looking at whether we were going to add take away or realign. And he sat with me doing sort of looking at where the contact was. We’d set it up and looking where the contact was taking that away. Then what happened to the occlusion? Then what happened? And then what happened? It was hours that he gave me sitting there doing that. And when I wanted to understand more about Bimanual manipulation, he sat with me and, you know, he did it to me. And then I did it to him. And then we did it on my nurse. And, you know, he’s very he’s so willing to share his his knowledge and his time. It’s just fantastic.

But tell me this, you know, with with the work that you’ve done with Invisalign, have you have you done anything else with other Aligners or have you only exclusively worked with Invisalign?

Because there’s so many right at the beginning.

I know. I know. So right at the beginning I did try a few different aligner systems and I found I personally found the Invisalign system the most reliable in my hands and the easiest to understand from the interface. So I always say to my patients, you know, you’ve got the option of having clear aligners The brand I use is Invisalign. At the moment it’s the market leader because of X, Y and Z. But there are some new aligner systems coming on to the scene which are exciting, you know, and there’s a massive sort of upturn of people doing their own aligners because once you understand the biomechanics, you know, you can manipulate the different systems. I like, you know, when you when you’ve used one system for so long, it’s difficult to move because you know the system, you trust the system. And I guess, you know, the cases I’m doing now are the cases where they’ve been rejected to have aligners, you know, they’re being told, no, you can’t have aligners you have to have fixed. And then they land at my doorstep going, please, I really don’t want to have fixed appliances. Can you do this with Aligners? Because I’m doing those more complex cases. I really want to use a system that I know like the back of my hand. So it’s almost like a catch 22. But yeah, I did use other systems in the past for a couple of cases and I just found that with Invisalign I got what I needed and what I wanted.

Well, look, I understand why Invisalign invested in you early and they’re the market leading. They’re the biggest Dental company. Not not the biggest clear aligner company. They’re the biggest Dental company. And so it makes sense, right? And at the same time, though, you know, Dipesh, for instance, he teaches for for us with enamel, but he insists on on staying on top of every other material that’s that’s out there. He’s doing work with doing cases with all the other materials at the same time to make sure that his teaching is, is, is correct teaching. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not saying I’m not saying, you know, you’re doing something right or wrong, but there’s so many new ones coming out that it’s important for your for your students, for you to be able to answer the question. Right. Because you’re now a teacher of it. You know, what is it? What are the advantages of Suresmile over Invisalign? I’ve got no idea, by the way. Yeah, but but there may be 1 or 2, right? I mean, you’d be crazy. And I know it’s a strange thing because each one of those, you know, dense ply, if they can get 1/20 of the valuation of Invisalign with suresmile, that would be well worth it. That would be a $2 billion company or something. Or Spark or Philips are bringing one out candid or there’s 100, isn’t there? Or making them yourself like you said.

Well there’s there’s angel coming from there’s Angel coming over as well which is going to be quite interesting. I mean, absolutely. I think I think for me, if I can, it’s all about case selection, right? I need to I need to be able to to to do that with the right patient, with the right aligner or the aligner system. So and there are dentists that I mentor and might help who who use slightly different systems and we can, you know, talk about it and manipulate it and get it to where where we want it to be using the principle of biomechanical principles. So I guess vicariously, yeah, I’m using some of the other systems, but it’s that case selection and I guess, you know, when you and I was approached to use some different systems and etcetera, but it’s about choosing the exact right case where I think it’s going to be possible. And because of the type of cases I do, I need the route talk or I need the, you know, the intrusiveness I need I need to know that I can get those more difficult movements and I know I can get them with Invisalign. So it’s waiting for those maybe slightly easier cases to come through the door, which I really wish would come through the door more often.

Because I spend less time planning them. But then I can.

See and then I can experiment with the with, with the other systems, because also I’ve got a responsibility to my patients that if we’re going, you know, I don’t want to have to abandon treatment. Exactly. So it’s a and you’re right. That’s that’s something I need to I need to work on.

It’s How about, you know the difference between you who’s doing advanced cases and an orthodontist? What is the difference?

Uh, I mean, there’s a lot there. I think it’s different.

To have a general practitioner, um, to do orthodontic treatment than an ortho. Obviously they’ve got the extra training, they’ve got sort of that understanding of growth potential. So I really treat adult patients. I’m treating my first child patient at the moment, which is my it’s actually my cousin.

Again, I know.

It’s always nerve wracking. But again, I haven’t done it by myself. I’m I’m I’m working with a specialist orthodontist who does a lot, who spends all his time doing clear aligners for children. And we’re going through the case together step by step, looking at it. So, you know, I like I’ll do things that are slightly more challenging as long as I’ve got the right people around me to understand and to one, explain everything and to look at things because you can read a textbook, but when you put it in practice, it’s very different. And also, if I hit a hit an issue or hit a problem, I can go and ask them. So it’s twofold. Ortho and general dentists will always look at things slightly differently, but I honestly think that it’s we’ve got a wonderful opportunity where actually we can work more closely together for the overall benefit of the profession and and of the patients, because, you know, general dentistry maybe shouldn’t be doing, you know, really, really crazy stuff all the time. But then also some of the authors are more trained in fixed appliances. So perhaps there’s something they can learn from a general practitioner who’s doing more complex stuff in terms of biomechanics and clear aligners. So I think there can be that bidirectional relationship rather than us, you know, knocking heads and going against each other.

That could answer a difficult question.

It’s a difficult question.

Do you come across the 32 CO?

Yes, I have, actually.

And I am I think I’m 329th in the list to be to be contacted.

So. Right. Yeah.

I’m waiting I’m waiting patiently.

For for people. I’m going to have Sonya on the podcast soon. But the idea is that they firstly mentor with orthodontists. They’ve got a bunch of free education and then orthodontists plan the case. But then there’s the really funky piece, which is once the case is planned, then they put it onto a marketplace of all the different aligner labs around the world that make aligners. And then those labs bid for the case. And I guess, you know, some of them are in China and some of them are in Europe and some are quicker and some or whatever. But it’s an interesting idea. And, you know, she’s she’s trying to disrupt Invisalign. Everyone’s trying to disrupt the line. Are they because of the value of that of that product? And let’s get on to darker days.

Yeah. So no, I’m waiting. I’m waiting for my callback.

So I can trial it.

I’ll put you in touch. She’s. She’s very busy.

I actually met her at the bar. She’s.

She’s a friend of a friend. But I didn’t take her. Didn’t take her contact details. And also, I don’t want to be pushy, so I’m just patiently waiting, you know?

I’m sure. I’m sure she’ll be in touch. Let’s let’s talk about darker days. This kind of my favourite part of the podcast. It’s weird why I enjoy this bit the most errors. Let’s talk about errors in general. I really want to talk about clinical errors because of that whole black box thinking and learning from each other’s mistakes. What comes to mind when I say clinical error?

Gosh. Um.

Well.

I think, well, gosh, with errors and clinical and, you know, mistakes, I always want to reframe it and say, you know, it’s a failure is just it’s not a success yet.

It’s a success in pending because actually, how much more do we learn when we make a mistake? Yeah. Then when.

Everything goes smoothly because we look back and I, you know, I reflect a lot of my cases and sometimes I see something in the photos and I’m like, Oh my God, I didn’t even realise that.

Happened. And then it’s only when you look at.

The photos and, you know, typical one for ortho is you lose Anchorage and you get a little bit of medial tipping of the 60s and you’re like, Damn.

It. Like you’ve checked the.

Occlusion and I go around the shim stock. I’ve got, you know, the occlusal grind on the itero and da da da da da. But that little means little tip that she didn’t see until you reflect back on the on the photos. And then, you know, you need to get better. I mean, my gosh, I’ve had cases where I have done way too much buccal movement, buckle proclamation recession. That’s never fun, especially because it doesn’t always look as that bad when you finish the case. But when you review it a year later, you’re like, Oh my God. And then you got to get, you know, refer to the periodontist, you know, mistakes. A lot of my mistakes have to be honest with you, are poor communication. So I know you said earlier that I’m a good I get on well with patients and it’s true. I get on well with patients, but I really don’t like difficult conversations. And I, I used to really, really struggle with it. And I would feel bad for having to tell patients they were going to lose a.

Tooth or they had to or they had periodontal disease. So I’d really try and not tell them. And honestly, I’d always try.

And sugarcoat it or make it seem in the best possible way I.

Could.

And that led to more problems than anything. Because ultimately, whilst I thought I was being nice to the patient, actually I wasn’t. I was I thought I was being nice, but I wasn’t because I should have just been much more upfront and direct. But let’s get specific.

Let’s get specific about a real, real painful episode in your past. Oh.

One really painful episode. Really, really painful episode. I had a patient who. Had and this is this is my most painful episode ever. He had a upper left, too, with a big crown on it. A little bit of spacing in the upper arch, a little bit of crowding in the lower arch, really simple alignment. And then we’re going to change the crown or the veneers three quarter crown on the upper left to anyway. He we changed the crown. We went through, we did the Invisalign was fine. Did did all the ortho came to the crown. Honestly he didn’t want to whiten.

It.

Because he didn’t want to maintain the whitening. And even though he went through that, he didn’t want to whiten and he had quite quite discoloured teeth with lots of character in even though he’s quite a young guy. And we went through one crown which she didn’t like the colour of and I agreed. We went through another one. He didn’t like the colour as I agreed. And then the third one he was happy with, we cemented it, but when he walked outside he wasn’t happy with it. So now all my patients, when we’re doing a single tooth, they go outside.

The light is too light, right? Yeah.

The light was different, so he didn’t like it. So anyway, we cemented it and I say, Right, fine, that’s okay. But I have to say the previous prep was, was quite heavy and I was talking to him. I was like, I’m really nervous about, you know, not nervous, but I really want to avoid taking this on, off, on, off, on, off again. So let’s try and get as close as we possibly can without removing the veneer. So even though it’s slightly grey and he was like, Yeah, no, I agree, but I think I gave him a slight complex because then we were going through different, different veneers with the lab and the lab was sending two three back sometimes because we just couldn’t get it right. And unfortunately, halfway through, not only did we have this difficulty getting the shade, but he started he got this pain.

And we looked needed.

Vitality testing. It’s coming back fine. There was no apical area. Everything looked normal. And then the pain went away. And then he came back a little bit later and later and he was like, Oh, it’s back. And I looked at the back of the tooth and the tooth was pink. So he had internal internal resorption. And I was like, No, Oh, I’m the worst. You know, the thing is, is like I had a really good from the start of treatment and the alignment had taken two months. It really hadn’t been long and I hadn’t taken a PR because I had a good quality view of the tooth on the OPG. But that was a mistake. I should have taken another PR, even though when I took the PR, when he first got pain, there was no changes. But from a medical legal point of view, I should have taken another PR, So then I sent him off to my endodontist who I use, and he had a CT scan. He was like, Yeah, it’s internal resorption. I think I can fix it, so I’m going to go in and fix it. So he went in and and repaired it. Obviously there’s a risk that it’s not going to work. And of course it didn’t work and it continued, but it continued silently. So there was nothing, you know, nothing going on outside. And we just managed to fit a veneer that.

Was finally the right colour after it had this root canal treatment. And then he comes back a.

Week later and he goes, I’ve got some pus. And I was like, No. And then honestly, I took another PR and this point was swimming, swimming in in space.

And I was like, Oh.

I’m going to cry. I was like, I’m literally I’m going to cry in this moment. So he sent him back to the endodontist. He had another CT scan. And it’s, you know, it’s it’s much larger now at the same time. Okay. This this patient was really lovely, quite demanding in terms of his his aesthetics in the aesthetics that he wants, which is fine. What I deal with that a lot, but he was becoming progressively, progressively more and more anxious, which I completely, completely understand. And like, let’s not lie. My anxiety levels are rising by this point. And, you know, every time I saw him in the diary, I was like, Oh God, I just want to go home.

My anxiety is rising.

Listening to the story. Come on, come on, come on.

Honestly, it was so bad.

Anyway in the end. And but the problem is, is because his anxiety was, was was increasing and we had this like, opportunity that we thought we could repair the tooth again and get on control of it. And you know, I don’t I’m. Anyway, he was so anxious that he didn’t want to go ahead and he was umming and ahhing, umming and umming and ahhing umming and ahhing. And then when he decided he did want to go ahead, it was too late. So then now we’re talking about extraction and implant. So what should have been a really simple case and you know, it was one of those, one of those things and I reflect on it loads and gosh, I had so many sleepless nights. It was awful. Um, and in the end.

What was the.

What was the feeling was, was the feeling that he was blaming you or was he blaming himself or. But you know, the feeling between us, the confidence slipping in the relationship.

The the confidence the relationship was was definitely slipping, of course. And he kept saying he was in contact with my daily he was in contact with me weekly via WhatsApp. All my patients have my WhatsApp number. It’s a business WhatsApp number so I can put an out of office on.

Yeah, but it.

Was slipping. And he kept saying, you know, I don’t I don’t blame you, but this isn’t what I thought would happen with treatment. And I was like such a low risk. Like, I literally, like I got, you know, and you get to a point, you’re like, I have nothing else I can say. And I spoke to different people and funnily enough, they were like, right, refund him for the veneer, but don’t refund him for the Invisalign. This isn’t your fault. But I actually I refunded him everything so he could go and, and you know, they were saying if you do the implant here then it’s going to, you know, we’ll obviously do it for free and then you’re only going to pay the cost. But he had lost confidence. He had lost confidence at that point. And he had found something he was really confident in. And this was the cost of the implant and that’s where he wanted to go. And in the end, I was like, Yeah, fine, you like, I’ll I’ll give you that refund. And I know there are going to be people who disagree with that approach and that’s completely fine. But that’s what I felt was the best thing to do in the moment. And I’d do the same. You know, everything has gone half everything’s gone well afterwards. So it was who paid, Who.

Paid, paid.

For all the Endodontics Was that himself or did you refund that as well.

He, he paid. He paid. He paid for the endodontics.

That’s okay.

You paid for the endodontics.

So now. So now reflecting. Reflecting outside of outside of that that you think you could have taken if you were being a proper defensive dentist. Anything else that you think you could have done better?

I feel that we could have.

Taken the first initial episode of Pain a little bit more seriously, but because it went away and there was really nothing to see. And I remember and and honestly, something niggled me. And it did niggle me and I know it niggled me. And, you know, sometimes you have a gut feeling about things and I really wish I’d followed my gut more and sent him to the endodontist earlier because even though I couldn’t see it, you know, this is what I think is amazing about dentistry is we’ve got so many people who specialise or have special interest in different things. You don’t have to rely on your own judgement. You can you can send people. And if I’d sent him, then when I was having that gut feeling that could possibly could have been avoided, possibly could have been saved. That’s not for sure.

Was it a while ago? Was it recently also?

Were you younger?

Less experienced Few a few years ago. A few years.

Ago. But not, you know, crazy long ago. Not right at the beginning of my career. Probably about midway.

As far as I’m concerned. You’re still at the beginning of your career. You know, I mean it. I mean it. I mean it. Yeah. Because. Because these. These spidey sense things. Yeah. Having, having the, the, the sort of the conviction of your feeling and, and when, when something feels wrong not doing it. But you don’t know why something just feels wrong. Yeah. That, that takes years and years and years to develop and you know even with your accelerated rate of, you know, getting, getting on with all of this, if it was two, three years ago, that was really at the beginning of your career. You know, it takes time for that spidey sense. It’s not the Spidey sense itself. It’s acting on the spidey sense. That’s the point. Yeah. Yeah. That, you know, it’s yeah, it’s it was. You can’t really blame yourself for that one though.

Well, I don’t know.

The other thing that I really wish I had done is I wish I had taken a photo of when I had sectioned the old veneer off the old three quarter crown off and I didn’t have that photo. And so I wasn’t sure if I had gone more subgingival and nicked the cementum somewhere. Like I. I couldn’t say for certain. I didn’t think I did because generally I really hate taking off ceramics. It takes me ages because.

I’m like, Oh, have I gone too far? Oh, have I gone too far?

But so I don’t think I did. But you know, and I quite like answers. And so there were, you know, I should have taken should have taken photos or more photos. But then again, I only know I now want to take that photo because I went through that experience. But if I hadn’t gone through that experience, I probably still wouldn’t be taking those photos today. True. True. Yeah, it was terrible. Honestly, I.

Felt so sick. I felt I felt the pain there a little bit.

Yeah.

And and, you know, even the financial implication of handling handling that back because you’ve already paid for it, right? You paid 50% of the lab bill.

With.

The principal, and now you’re handing 100% back all the honestly pay the hours and hours I spent in clinic. So, you know, it hit hard from from multiple different angles. Have you ever.

Had have you had a situation where a patient comes in and it looks like a tough case or they seem like they’re a tough patient? And then there’s one side of you is sort of the ego side of you saying, I can do this. And there’s the spidey sense side of you saying avoid. And you know.

Yeah.

So we used to. We used to, we used to, we used to trying to make our patients happy. Are we in any way that we can? And then you’re good at what you do, right? So there’s always the, you know, niggling sense sense that whoever tried it last time didn’t know what I know. And, you know, there’s that that piece. And often that’s the case, right? I mean, that’s often the case. Have you have you ever had that situation bite you?

Oh, my gosh.

So there’s always you know, you.

Really have to step back from your ego. Like I want to do like, I want the challenge and I want unless, you know, if there’s something really challenging, then I go and speak to mentors all the time. I have lots of different mentors in different walks of dentistry that I have no qualms about going to ask and going to ask for help or going to ask for guidance. And, you know, I actually really like it because we get to geek out a little bit, but oh gosh, like so many times you look at something, you’re like, that’s a really terrible margin. Why have they done that?

I can do that better.

You do? And you’re like, Ah, this is why it’s a terrible model.

Yeah, you’re there and you’re.

Like, Patient can’t open their mouth.

I know. And you look at it and you’re like, Why did I do it? And you just you’re there, you’re slightly sweating. Your nurse is like, Oh my God, now we’re going to run late.

And just you’re like, Why? Why, why, why? But, you know.

Yeah.

Does a case come to mind that that happened?

No, not one in particular, to be honest with you.

It’s not one that went wrong badly. No, I mean, to be.

Honest with you, I’ve been quite, quite fortunate that I’ve hit bumps. But most of the bumps, apart from that one big case I just told you about. Most of the bumps have been really easy to fix. Like, you know, created an anterior open bite because I forgot to cover the apex and I put a liners in. So the apex over erupted. That was shocking when that walked in the door.

I can tell you, God. But then. Oh, gosh, yes, honestly. And but in what timeframe.

Did that happen?

Oh, my gosh. Payman. I had just been asked to be a.

Speaker for a line and my first text.

The next.

Week to Ramon, who is.

He’s the founder of a line of consulting who does all the training, who was actually going to start working with. That was my first message. After he.

Had just hired me.

I was like.

I’m really sorry to be asking you this.

But bless him, he was really lovely. He was like, No, you’ve really owned up to what you did.

You know what you’ve done wrong. This is how we’re going to fix it. And he walked me through it and really see my blood pressure then came down because I had a plan and it was fine. But.

You know.

Teaching and teaching as well. The situation comes up where someone asks a question and if you don’t know the answer to that question, I don’t know is the best answer. And yet we find that. But but we find that, you know, as the teacher, you know, you’re there to answer those questions. So there’s again, one part of you saying, you know, thinking, I don’t know the answer to this question. And there’s another part of you saying, well, let me just say something to to make this right. And it’s I think it’s a massive responsibility, not only in teaching in all the people I deal with, the ones who say, I don’t know, I end up respecting the most, you know, suppliers, lawyers, whoever the hell it is. You ask them a question, they say, I don’t know the answer to that, but it’s so difficult as the teacher. It’s difficult to admit to that, you know. But I think it’s.

A great response. The only answer they give I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

All day.

I don’t know. Sorry. I think so. Normally, if I don’t know something, I’ll say I don’t know. But also I’ll be like, but if I’m going to really apply some logic to it, this is what I think. But I can go.

And I can go and find out.

And normally you’re in the right.

Rooms and I do sort of have this like what I’m doing now, this like snake back and forth, which I do when I’m tend to be tend to be thinking and thinking around, you know, what’s what’s the logical explanation or where would the logic be taking as I’m thinking of an answer, because sometimes, you know, you do get a question you’ve never had before, and maybe it’s just a different way of thinking about something, you know? But then if you don’t know, I’m always like, Oh, I’ll go and find out and I’ll and I’ll email you or I’ll text you. I like to WhatsApp. I really I’m not a big fan of emails. I’d much prefer to WhatsApp people than anything else.

Me too.

So now, now you’ve got this mentoring and online course that you’ve started and remind me if I’m about this. I said to you, Are you going to open a practice? And you said, Absolutely not. This is what I’m doing. Is that right? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. No, I have no interest in owning a practice.

Though, right? I wouldn’t write it off right now because I think you’d be an amazing you know, you’d have an amazing practice. But. But, but I get it. I get it. You know, in the same way as Jaz Gulati said, he definitely doesn’t want to practice because he’s gone into, you know, protrusive and all the things that he does. Yeah, but but go through. What is it? What is it? Is there, is there an element because I saw you actually visited a dentist a couple of days ago in Devon or whatever it was. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there’s an element of face to face and there’s an element of online. Is that right?

Yeah. So I guess one of the.

Things I found incredibly valuable throughout my whole career is having mentors and having someone that can go and ask and go and talk to so and so I developed this program and it combines 1 to 1. And mentorship. So for treatment, planning for general questions with me, but also my treatment coordinator for the team because it’s not just the dentist. If you only focus on the dentist, then, um, then you know, I feel like you miss a massive part. Like the team is so important. So we’ll do, you know, Zoom calls and chat to the team as well. And my, my treatment coordinator is fantastic. And she comes on and, you know, she chats. She chats the team and we we help them, you know, look at their patient journey and really go through that. And then as well as all the clinical treatment planning. And then we have sort of a lecture element to it. So we have that level of knowledge. Um, and it sounds like it’s going to sound like a massive commitment, but then there’s group mentoring. So you’re part of this safe community where you know everyone and it really is a community, so it won’t be for everyone.

But that’s okay because we, we want we want people who have that like mindedness and want everyone else to do well and want to grow. And we celebrate our wins. We we we look at our hurdles and we dissect them as a group because you, you know, as you said, dentistry can be really isolating. And this is a way to get out of the four white walls. And then there’s the live, you know, going to practice. They come to my not my practice, but ace in Wimpole Street and with ads and they’ll come there. I go to go to their practice and then we have a we you know, we’ve organised a couple of dinners. We’ve got a live day at the end with live patients. So it’s trying to create a blended learning environment that’s not just a one day course where you may or may not put it into practice afterwards, but where you have that mentorship sort of six months and you know, I can help you. And our our aim is to get you getting you to do many more cases.

But in a safe.

And predictable way. So you.

Are.

You’re you’re really serving your patients in the best way. And also that growth, because I find so many people want to do clear aligners, but perhaps they’ve never spoken to patients about that value of treatment or, you know, they they don’t feel confident in planning with the software or, you know, whatever the barrier is. But actually having someone to hold your hand and say, it’s okay, let’s go forward together makes then changes. And, you know, even just having the confidence of, you know, to say yes to patients because you know that I’ll be there behind you or over your shoulder helping you get get to the right result is great. And it’s different from a treatment planning service because whilst I’m helping them treatment plan, I’m not just saying we’re going to do X, Y, Z. I’m saying we’re going to do X, Y, z because of A, B, C, So it’s that next level. So, you know, they they can go and they can. Everything I tell them they can and give them they can ten x it, you know they can grow and grow and grow.

Let me ask you a couple of unfair questions. Oh, good. Look, I’m looking for an aha moment. Yeah. Yeah. Around Invisalign. So, look, of course, it’s a massive question. We could. We could talk about it for four hours longer. Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure your course is a few more hours than that. But. But, but, but the bigger heart in your, in your mind that clicked. Something that clicked. I asked Sam Jethwa this about veneers and and he said to me really interesting about the occlusion, not just being inside out, but being outside in. And, and yeah, it was a Southerner half for me because I hadn’t never thought of outside in. Yeah, I’d always thought of it inside. Inside out. Yeah. Around Invisalign. Let’s start with I’m not looking for a sales one. I’m looking for a clinical one. Treatment. Planning one. What, What comes to mind when I say that?

Gosh. Um.

It’s unfair. So in.

Terms of.

A.

No, it’s not unfair. So actually, it’s it’s.

So I guess for me, what I.

Really used to think is I used to think that it was a displacement system. So where you’re just moving the crown from place to place and when you realise actually that’s not true, it’s a force.

Driven, it’s.

A force driven system. So now when I’m treatment planning, I plan where I want the teeth to finish and then I plan how I want the teeth, like the teeth. I’m looking at how the teeth are going to get there and like I’m looking at the forces that are going to be needed and I will overcome. I mean, honestly, I have one clincheck for the patient and I have one clincheck for me.

And clincheck for me is, you know, the teeth don’t look like they, like.

They’re in a straight line, in a straight position because I’ve over treated in some areas, not all areas, but it depends on the predictability of the movement, the correct movements appearing with it. Yeah. So, you know, most of my everything looks slightly torqued the wrong way because I know the line is going to struggle doing maybe doing, you know, expansion with proclamation. The two moves don’t work. So that staging and that that looking at it not just as a clincheck but that force like dissecting the forces behind it that has like changed complete approach and now I’m getting much much better results much more quickly and the patients are so much happier. I mean and a lot of my patients on five day changes and we’re finishing in one set of aligners, which is awesome. Like it’s awesome, but it’s because, you know, and I was blaming the patient, I was blaming the system and actually it was all my fault.

Because I wasn’t looking at the forces behind the system.

Properly. I mean, the biggest variable is that the plan, isn’t it? That is the biggest variable. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, but you can.

Plan and plan and plan. But if the patient doesn’t have them in the mouth, it’s not going to work. True.

True.

So yeah, so it’s like it’s half done, half of one, six, a dozen or the other. I think that’s the saying.

Yeah.

But you know, but that.

That’s that’s interesting. So the forces, you know, you’re saying to start with the end in mind and the particular forces on the particular teeth and the full understanding of that and the overcorrection piece where you’re asking it to do something, you know, rotation or extrusion or whatever it is, that’s difficult to overcorrect on the clincheck so that it manages to get aim for the stars. And yeah, so that yeah, that’s interesting. And what about on the, the selling side? Because I know when you’re super confident about something, it’s much easier to sell it because you’re just super confident about it. But, but how do you teach your, you know, your students. Do you ask them to go after the health benefits of straight teeth or do you assess the patient based on what you think is important to that patient and then hit them with those benefits, or how do you do it?

So there are two things I think are really crucial. One is to listen to the patient and actually listen to the patient and find out their why and chase that why a little bit. So why is this important and why and why and why? And I think it’s more important to find out the why than to chase the. Yes, I know. You know, I don’t I don’t like chasing lots of yeses. I like chasing the why. And then the other thing that ruins it is if you don’t look confident. So my biggest piece of advice.

Is for for.

Dentists is to take the photos, take the scan. If you’ve got one, put the photos on the screen and talk your talk to your patient through it and say, look, I’m seeing this. Are you seeing that? And think about it as a whole. And but but give yourself the space. Most of my patients don’t get a treatment plan when they’re in the chair. I say, look, I’m going to go away and think about everything we’ve said and I’m going to I’m going to come up with the ideal treatment plan for you. And then we have a zoom call a week or two weeks later, depending on how many other disciplines I’ve got to get a hold of and get an answer from. And when I come back to present the plan, I know exactly what I’m saying. I’ve thought it through. If I’ve needed to speak to mentors, I’ve spoken to mentors. So then when I’m talking to the patient about it, I’m not only in my super confident, but I’m super excited because I can already envision what’s going to happen at the end and the patient then picks up on that and they’re like, Yes, okay, Right. No, this is going to be good. And because I know their why, I’m tailoring the why into that treatment plan and only then am I bringing in my why. So your why is that? You want a nice smile for your wedding. That’s great. My why is, you know, your teeth are falling to pieces because your class to div two and you’ve got a restricted envelope of function. So you know you bring you then you focus on their why and then bring in your why. So you’re coming at it from both angles, but you separate it from that initial conversation later on. And I tell my patients when they come through the door that I might not be able to give them the answers that they want today, because if it’s complex, I want to go away and think about it so I can come up with the absolute best plan for them.

I bet you get massive word of mouth from your patients though, because they can feel that you care. You know, that’s much better than spending money on marketing, right?

Yeah. We have a lot of friends, family.

Mothers and daughters are.

Another one. Like, you know what I love? I love it when you’re.

Treating like husband and wife or, you know, any partners because and actually brothers and sisters as well. I have to say, siblings are another great one to treat at the same time because there’s this like level of competition between them. Yeah, Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And they’re like, I want to finish first. I want the best result. I want this, I want that. And you can really leverage it, Um.

Because, you.

Know, then they’re like, they’re so driven and each one is like keeping on top of the other one. It’s great. Like I’ve, it’s like a little bit bad playing.

One off the other, but it does work really, really well. I’ve been there.

I’ve been there with the same thing. Our times come nearly to an end. Um, we’re going to finish off with our usual questions that we ask all the guests. So. My one first fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive.

You know, this has actually been playing on my mind like the last three weeks because I hate this question. I was like, oh, it’s such a good question.

Matty did not want this answer to this question. He wouldn’t answer it.

I really feel him. I really, really feel that.

So did come up with an answer for you.

So the first person who I.

Would want is is J.D. Gleason or Jackie Gleason, who’s not not the actor, but he actually was.

The first guy.

In Australia to breed an Australian kelpie. And anyone who knows me knows I’ve got two dogs, Luna and Frank, who are Australian kelpies, and they are my absolute world.

But my God, are they challenging dogs?

They’re like border collies, but they’re sassy with it.

So I just think, you know.

Like going back to their roots and really understanding where they came from and what the thinking was about it and like how that then breeding went on would be one. It’s just so awesome to know and two would really just help me do better for the dogs because knowing, you know, just the, you know, the inside out and I’m really obsessed with my dogs, like really obsessed with him. At the weekend, we went to see some friends and they’re like.

Are you.

Dog owners? Are you dog parents? I was like.

Obviously we’re dog parents. They are my children.

So you got two of them? Two of the same breed?

Yeah. So they’re. Yeah, they’re two.

We’ve had Luna since she was a baby. And then we adopted Frank literally a year ago, a year and a month ago. And they are. They are a handful. A lovable handful.

But they’re very, very funny. Dog. Luna is like the sassiest.

Of just Googling it while you’re talking. Is it chocolate brown? The ones I’m looking at.

Yeah.

So Luna’s chocolate brown.

And then Frank is black.

And tan. So Luna is, like, really sassy. She’s really judgemental. So we were hiking at the weekend in Devon, and there’s a there’s a steep, really steep and the switchbacks and Luna would run up, run down, run up and then wait for you at the corner. And you knew she was like, Come on. I was like, I am walking as fast as I can.

I cannot walk any faster up this hill. Stop judging me. And then Frank’s just a complete goofball, like, complete goofball. He’s the funniest. Like, he’s just such a funny dog.

But anyway, so that’s why I’d want Jack.

Gleeson, because he is the person.

Who first decided.

To breed.

Kelpies and the second person is actually a mentor of mine who I speak to all the time. So Romano Clarke, He just because like, as I said, I love to geek out and him like when we’re together, we just really, really geek out. And I find it so fun just to really, really geek out on the biomechanics and the materials, everything. And it’s this really nice relationship we’ve got where we really bounce off each other. So I just and I really enjoy that. And then the third person would be my grandma who passed away when we were really young. But I have such wonderful memories of her. Me and my sister skipping down.

To the.

Newsagents in the village because she’d buy us a £0.10 packet of penny. The penny sweets. Do you remember those?

Is that your mum’s mum?

My dad’s mum.

And she, you know.

She had this really interesting history where she was born in Angola, grew up in Egypt, met my grandpa who was Scottish originally from Malta, however, and then moved to England. And, you know, I don’t she died when I was young and I don’t I never really got to talk to her about it or appreciate our heritage. And, you know, it’s something that’s sort of been lost within the family. So and and I just she was such a wonderful person. And I remember her being a wonderful person. But I don’t I feel now I could appreciate her being a wonderful person so much more because I’m older and I can remember and I can ask other questions I really want to ask.

It sounds like you’ve got like feelings but not details. And that’s what you want to get from her.

Yes, yes.

Yes, exactly. I need the detail.

That’s lovely. Yeah, you too. All right, let’s move let’s move on to Prav deathbed question. On your deathbed, got your friends and family around you.

Is this is this.

Three pieces of advice? Again.

This is the other one I’ve been really worried about.

The perfectionist is coming out now. Finally, one hour 44 into the podcast.

If you want to make Milly not sleep for a week, ask ask questions like these. Don’t tell my patients. So so one So.

I really, really suffered from imposter syndrome. So, you know, I was very I was really young when I started like educating. I was, you know, especially.

With you guys.

On Mini Smile Makeover. I was really young and, you know.

It was quite.

Daunting. But like you helping out the students and and you were a baby used one year out of university, but you’re still good at it. You were still good at it back then. You’ve got a real, real talent for teaching. I got to. I got to save that money. You really do.

But go on. Thank you. Thank you.

But gosh, But you know that imposter syndrome.

Makes you feel like the smallest.

Smallest person and you feel like a fraud and you feel like you’re lying to everyone. And actually you’re not lying to everyone. It’s just that you know how mentors can see something in you that perhaps you can’t see in yourself or a coach can see something in you that you can’t see in yourself. You know, trust other people when they say you’re good and that you can do it and you are meant to be here. So, you know, that would be my first piece of advice. The second piece of advice would be to take, to lead in and take on the challenges. So don’t be comfortable. And obviously you can have a comfort, a comfort Saturday every now and then.

But most of the time you want to be.

Uncomfortable, you want to be challenged. And you you know. So last year I actually reached out to a new coach because I wanted to to leave dentistry because I didn’t know why I wanted to leave dentistry.

But I was so fed up of going.

In to the practice. And I honestly thought that that that was my career in dentistry over. And what I wanted to do is I wanted to start. It’s going to sound so silly.

I wanted to start a pub, but instead of the.

Owners bringing the dogs, the dogs.

Brought the owners and so.

All the dogs would be off lead. They’d all be having fun and playing together. And, you know, the owners.

Is just sort of there.

But you can go interact with other dogs like that. I was so close to leaving and, you know, my dad owns a brewery, so I was like, Excellent, it’s going to work so well. Anyway, going through that coaching, what I realised is that I was really like bored. I had stopped pushing myself. Yeah, I was doing some more complex cases here and there, but and I was actually the funny thing is I was doing my masters at the time. I’m still doing my master’s, but I really, really felt I had stopped growing. And one of the one of the areas I’d stopped pushing myself in is that that education and mentoring other dentists. So now that’s why this year I’m really pushing, pushing that because I really lights my fire. I love it. It’s like the most rewarding thing, you know, ever. Um, apart from when Frank learned to sit for the first time, that was pretty.

Rewarding as well.

No, you know what I mean.

But so.

You know, and. And one of the things my coach told me was to push and lean into the things you find difficult because then you’re going to grow. And it was having the confidence to step out and do something by myself instead of, you know, always hiding behind, you know, a company. So that was what I found really difficult. And now that’s what I’m doing and I’m having a blast. I love it. Like I come, I work most nights and I come off and I’m like beaming. And so, you know, lean into the things that you find difficult. And then my third piece of advice is to have fun whilst doing it.

Because you can work and work and work and work. And if you’re not, you.

Know, we’re only here once. Like, I really don’t believe there’s something coming after. And that’s just my that’s my personal belief. But if we’re, you know, we’re only here once and you have to have fun. And so, you know, like with the burning the candle at both ends, like I wanted to study, but I wanted to party. So I’m going to do both. And, you know, I want to work, but I also want to go to Devon. So we’re going we’re going to drive late at night. We’re going to get there at like midnight and we’re going to do both.

Um, you know.

All these.

All these things that you that we.

Have to balance. And it’s hard. And I think the other thing is, is that it’s not always, you know, 5050 in relationships or fun and, and, and work etcetera, etcetera. Some weeks it’s going to be 1090, other weeks it’s going to be 6040, other weeks it’s going to be 7030. But on balance, you’re going to find that balance. And you know, I now go, well, I always quite a happy person, but I do feel like a lot of the time I’m almost like playing and just chatting.

And having fun.

So it doesn’t always feel like work. And sometimes it does, of course. Um, but, but, you know, I’m genuinely happy doing what I do and I’m genuinely happy with the balance I have. So that’s so, so important.

I love that. I love that. For someone who doesn’t like these questions, you had some pretty good answers there.

Honestly, that’s the 3 a.m.. 3 a.m. thinking. I’m joking.

Really? When did you qualify? 2015. 16?

Something like that. 2015?

Yeah. So I’ve been watching you since then, and it’s been a pleasure to watch. And and you’re right that that thing you said about when when someone can see something in you that you can’t see in yourself, I come across that problem sometimes, you know, talk, talk to someone and say something. And they don’t they haven’t got the confidence to to acknowledge it to themselves that they might be the right person for something. But I really look forward to seeing, you know, where where all of this takes you. And, you know, I know you’re going to cover for me at many Smile maker, but I can’t I can’t think of any one better to do that. You know, anyone would trust more to do that And and you know, considering that but really considering you’re only qualified. I know you feel like you’ve been bit you’re only qualified since then. It’s a massive achievement. So maybe one day you will get that doggy pub thing going as well. Why not? Well, we’ll see. It’s been a massive pleasure. It’s been a massive, massive pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this. It’s been a long time coming as well. We were thinking of doing this for a while, but it’s been a long time coming and best of luck with the the author thing. If someone wants to check it out, what’s the website called?

So a line of confidence.co.uk or pop me a message on Instagram and we can set up a call because you know, we want to make sure I want to make sure it’s right for you as well and make sure that I can I can help and I can serve you and you know, and we can work well together. So having that having that call is sort of it’s sort of really, really nice because we get to introduce each other and really important. But yeah, through, through Instagram. What is your Instagram?

Morrison or Dr. Miller? Dr. Millie Morrison.

Yeah. I came.

Across a couple of a.

Couple of people on the team.

A couple of people on Mini Smile Makeover who’d signed up for, for your thing. And yeah, it was, it was cool. It was cool. Cool to hear what they had to say about it. Really, really proud of you, sweetheart. Well done.

Thank you.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

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