Speaker1: Don’t let being scared of something be a reason enough not to do it. That kept me going through my undergrad at Leeds. It kept me going through my masters at Kent. So basically it’s when that little voice, that self-doubt, just being scared isn’t good enough reason. If you’ve got a better reason, then fine, but that’s not a good enough reason to stop. And then connected to that, we’ve got basically believe in yourself, because if you don’t, nobody else will. As we said, I’m someone as we know, as struggled with that self validation [00:00:30] and relied on it a lot externally. But then when you realise that it’s not coming externally and you can’t rely on it, always be in there. You have to have that belief in yourself and trust, because there’s too many people ready to tear you down and challenge you, that you have to just have that and then tied in with those two. I would say it’s just say yes and figure out the detail later, which has been most of my life choices.

Speaker2: Say yes to stuff.

Speaker1: Just say I mean, that’s why I’m chatting to you now. Payman. [00:01:00] I didn’t know what what was going to happen, but I thought, you know what? I’ve never done it before. Just say yes and figure it out later.

Speaker3: This is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker2: It gives [00:01:30] me great pleasure to welcome Miranda Steeples onto the podcast. Miranda is the current president of the BST, the British Society of Dental Hygiene and Therapy. A wet fingered hygiene therapist herself runs an incredibly busy person, as you could imagine. She’s the host of the Miranda on the move series on social media. Um, which is really, really interesting. I’ve been following it around, you [00:02:00] know, it shows, it shows how busy you are really going up and down the country. And as well as being, you know, one of the busiest, busiest hygiene therapists out there, she’s an avid fan of football and a fan of Brighton and Hove Hove Albion. Unfortunately, I know nothing about football at all, so we’ll have to stick to hygiene and therapy. But massive pleasure to have you on the show.

Speaker1: Oh, thank you very much, Payman. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Sitting here in my Brighton and Hove Albion Christmas jumper.

Speaker2: Um, is that what [00:02:30] that is?

Speaker1: That is what I’m wearing today. Yes, because I figured you wouldn’t know. Um, yeah.

Speaker2: So, Miranda, we tend to start these things with sort of the backstory, and we had a little chat, and it was quite an interesting back story that you had even by, by accident, getting into dental nursing in the first place. Yeah. Where were you born? How did you grow up? What kind of kid were you and how did you get into the whole dental field?

Speaker1: Uh, so I was born in Hastings, which is in East Sussex. Um, [00:03:00] grew up there, went to school there. Primary school, secondary school. I was quite a smart kid when I was young, probably hot, housed a little bit by my mum. I think if I look back properly over school, summer holidays. Um, so when I was ten, she entered me for a scholarship examination for a local private school, which I didn’t really want to go to, but I was always keen to please and excel and do my best, so I did. So I got in. So I got a full academic [00:03:30] scholarship to a local private school, and that was quite a turning point in many ways, because it did lead me on the path to believing that I was as clever as everyone thought I was, but I was still quite unconfident. I was that little. I was quite small as well, till I was about 14. That small little geek sat at the front because I needed glasses, but I didn’t have them then, so I couldn’t read the board. So I did get picked on a little bit back then, but I was always the straight-A student, always very, very well behaved and [00:04:00] did really well. But my reports used to say things along the lines of a bit too reticent, needs to speak up more in class, and as you can see, that that’s really changed now. Um, so a big life change happened when I was, uh, coming into year 11.

Speaker1: Yeah, it is something that I don’t talk about a lot, but I think this is actually possibly a really good time to talk about it, because I do have a fear that sometimes people might look at me and think, oh, she’s white, middle class lady, public [00:04:30] school educated. But yeah, that was my background. But the other side to that background was that, I suppose, to be fair to my parents, it wasn’t. The economy wasn’t great. You know, there was had been many financial crashes and we were a victim to that coming into year 11. We ended up losing our house. We got evicted. We lived in temporary accommodation for a while, technically homeless. I think you could put it like that. Moved around a little bit, settled in the house that my dad’s still in now and that was [00:05:00] what I came into, going into sixth form. And so being at a public school with people with 2 or 3 cars, holidays every year, nannies and housekeepers, it was quite difficult. Um, and my mum was always one to keep up appearances, so I wasn’t allowed to tell anybody about that, but still try to maintain the outward appearance that everything was fine and still work really hard at school, which I did, but I guess with everything going on at home was distracted, was not the ideal [00:05:30] learning environment. And I did A-levels and I passed them, but not as well as everybody had expected.

Speaker1: You know, they certainly weren’t the A’s that I’d had previously. And then around the time boys came on the scene or in my case, a younger man, a young man, and he was an entertainer, uh, he was a comedian and a singer and an illusionist. He was multi-talented. And we met when I was doing a pantomime, which sort of came from a summer show, because I’d always been a [00:06:00] dancer. I’d always danced for fun. And he suggested, why don’t you come and work on Holiday Park with me? So I’d finished A-levels, had no idea how I’d done. I didn’t imagine I’d done very well, which yeah, was was correct. So I went down to the Isle of Wight to where he was working, and started a summer season as a dancer and a singer, and doing the magic act with him as well. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. You know, I had people cheering my name every night, children wanting photos taken with me, asking [00:06:30] me for my autograph. Suddenly I was a star. You know, I’d never been the best dancer in the world. Not by any means. But suddenly there I was. And I had this. This new status, I suppose this, I suppose I was growing into the person that I am now on the way. Anyway, so then I got the results and yeah, they weren’t what they should have been. So I took a year out, much to many people’s disgust.

Speaker1: My parents, especially friends, were not happy, but I figured at that point [00:07:00] that I could be a dancer and entertainer and then go to university when I was ready. But, you know, biologically, physically, I thought, I can’t really go to university now for three, maybe four years and then try and be an entertainer. I became very much of the view of carpe diem, seize the day, right place, right time. And plus, I didn’t really want to do the course I was meant to do at uni. I picked it because I felt I should, and [00:07:30] I suppose that was one step along the way of breaking away from doing what was expected of me and doing what I actually really wanted to do, which at that time was perform. And so I did that for six years full time summer seasons, pantomimes, theatre shows, hotel hosting. And then I ended up back in Eastbourne after a stint in Cyprus, working as well. And I was working for Shearings Coaching Company in the evenings and [00:08:00] a bit bored in the daytime because I was used to keeping busy. So I took on a job in a bingo hall in the daytime, which kept me quite busy. Then they sold my hotel so I was full time at bingo. So by now I’m in my mid late 20s and then I did bingo call of the year competition twice. I was a twice finalist, so that was really good fun.

Speaker1: If you Google it, it’s still out there. Thankfully no footage, but the press releases are still available. And so [00:08:30] it was around that time that a friend of mine from school who’s a dentist, she still is a dentist. She said basically, stop messing around. That’s not her words, but you can choose your own words. Stop messing around. Stop wasting your life. Do something sensible. You’re really smart. What on earth are you doing? And she suggested I try dental nursing now, even though I could stand in front of a thousand people calling bingo, playing for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of pounds, and I could run [00:09:00] that room. I could single handedly run a hotel. Entertainment. I still didn’t think I was clever. I still didn’t think that I was good enough. And it was only then when customers started to saying, what’s a nice girl like you doing working in a place like this? Surely you could do better. You’re thinking, wow, but you’re here. Um, but it was almost that, you know, the stars aligned. And I’ve always been quite a fatalist, I think, although I’m a scientist, but quite a fatalist and think, well, you know, things come into [00:09:30] place. People come into your life for a reason. And so when the customers started to say it as well, I thought, well, I’ve got nothing to lose. So I found a trainee dental nurse job was on a Wednesday, which was my day off from the bingo.

Speaker2: Can I stop you? Can I stop you? Yeah. Can I stop you? You can. Because it’s a brilliant story. I just can’t let it go into dentistry without asking you some questions about it. Okay, sure. So number one. Why? Why is entertaining people not a great career? You know [00:10:00] why? When that dentist said to you, stop fucking around and go get a real career. Did you have that feeling yourself that you’re not going anywhere with your with your career in the entertainment category or what? I mean.

Speaker1: I think that’s a really hard question, because my natural default would be to say, well, yeah, I wasn’t going anywhere because I wasn’t good enough. But then was I? Yeah. Um, I think I was good at what I did. I was basically a redcoat, although I never [00:10:30] worked as a red, so I was many other coloured coats. I was a good team player. I was a great number two, a great assistant entertainments manager. But I never had in that sort of world where depending on which which avenue you’re going down. But in that world, in the holiday park world, in working in hotels, you need to have a cabaret. And so I was a dancer who could sing and dancers have a shelf life. Um, I’m sure there’s niche markets that would have the auditors, but I [00:11:00] think the turning point for me came when I realised that I think I was about 25 or 26 and, um, instead.

Speaker2: Felt that way yourself. You felt that way yourself that it was time for a change.

Speaker1: Well, I realised that I wasn’t going to the older girls for help and advice. I was now the older girl and the young ones were coming to me and asking for my advice and guidance, so my shelf life as a dancer was up. I was an okay singer when I worked in a hotel. [00:11:30] I did a short spot, but I was never great. I was never good enough for West End. I had one opportunity to cruise ship it, but I bottled that, so I think I’d exhausted it.

Speaker2: That’s fine, that’s fine. And then. And then this sort of I’m not good enough external validation thing that you, you seem to be saying you needed at this point. At what point did you conquer that? Because you must have conquered that by, you know, to become president of the Bsdc. [00:12:00] There was there must have been an inflection point where, you know, you said you were the geeky kid, and then this thing happened with your family circumstances and, you know, not feeling good enough. And just then I said to you in the entertainment industry and you said, well, I wouldn’t have even known if I was or if I wasn’t. At what point did that change? And you become this ambitious person who is good enough and is speaking on stage and all of those things. What happened?

Speaker1: I think it was actually going to university. [00:12:30] It was getting my place at Leeds, which I only did to shut people up to get people off my back. Yeah.

Speaker2: How many years had you been a dental nurse before you decided to do that?

Speaker1: Um, it wasn’t two years. It was, I don’t know, it was probably about a year before I made the decision. Oh, really? Um, I was working part time, one day a week with the dentist, and then a short while after, I was doing half a day a week with the dental hygienist. And [00:13:00] then I’d started the course that the national course, and the tutor started saying, oh, you’ve got A-levels, why don’t you go and be a dental hygienist? I was like, oh, don’t be silly. I’m not clever enough, can’t do it. And then I obviously must have mentioned this at some point at lunchtime at work, because then I had the dental hygienist coming at me saying, of course you can do it, you can talk to people, you’ve got biology A-level. So yeah, but it wasn’t very good. Yeah, but you’ve got it. No one cares what grade you got. You’ve got it. And then my dentist. Well of course you can do it. You can talk to people. Your job is about talking. Um, [00:13:30] and in the end I said, okay, look, fine, fine. I’ll apply. Just leave me alone. I’ll apply. And yeah, I got accepted at Leeds and then right at the last minute got accepted at King’s. But by then I’d already said yes to Leeds and I was happy with that decision and I think, well, I was 30, I was 30 within freshers week. And I think because it was finally that you asked what the turning point was, I think it was doing it on my terms. I think in the first couple [00:14:00] of weeks, we had to do an exercise where we had to do a PowerPoint, which I’d never touched a PowerPoint in my life, and you had to do a thing about all about me.

Speaker1: So you had to talk about your background and where you’d come to to that point, and how you thought your previous skills would help you in dental hygiene and dental therapy. And so I told my story, and I can now see it was to help you create a PowerPoint and to stand in front of people, which of course was pretty easy for me. And I remember there was one tutor who just sat there, [00:14:30] arms folded, lips pursed, and she just said, well, I think you’re fine, that dental hygiene is very different to your entertainment. Miranda and I just said, well, I think you’ll find it’s rather similar, actually, because in entertainment you walk on that stage, you’ve got about three seconds to get that audience on your side. I don’t think it’s going to be any different with a patient. You’ve got about three seconds before they decide if they’re going to listen to you like you let you do stuff. And equally in entertainment, if something goes wrong, the audience don’t need [00:15:00] to know that. You just have to keep a smile on your face and carry on. And dentistry is the same. If you’ve had a bad day, you’ve had an argument with somebody. Your patient doesn’t need to know that. And obviously they do need to know if something’s gone wrong, but not by you sort of going, oh, and falling apart. You know, you have to calmly tell them what’s gone wrong. So I think those skills, yeah, they’ve really, really helped.

Speaker2: But that doesn’t sound like Miranda. I’m not good enough. That sounds like, you know, confident. Miranda. So was it in that [00:15:30] moment?

Speaker1: That’s. It’s really hard to say whether it was in that. I think she just really annoyed me. Yeah, I think she really annoyed me. I think because I’d. I spent years defending being a bingo caller to people who were a bit like, oh, you’re a bingo caller, when actually it’s a really highly skilled role. It’s really difficult. Um, and I think I just felt really diminished and belittled, whereas I was really proud and still am really proud of of what I did. And so it was partly [00:16:00] that and then, yeah, that 27 months of. Yeah, scoring really well coming away with a merit, having people that I really liked and respected saying, yeah, you’re really good at this, you can do this. But I think it was because I’d made that decision. It was, yeah, the suggestion of other people. But, you know, I’d funded it myself. I’d travelled six hours up the country. Yeah, I fully owned it. Nobody gave it to me, you know. You know. Yeah, I did that.

Speaker2: Before we move on again, I’m just going to finish [00:16:30] finish the psychotherapy piece. Right. Because you haven’t got kids, have you? You tell me. No. Yeah, but I’ve got kids. Right. And and so what do you put it down to that that person that you were sort of lack of confidence or needing validation. Do you put it down to what your relationship with your parents or what you were you were you just that way, or are some people just that way.

Speaker1: Possibly just that way? But I think I think it [00:17:00] was probably and you know, she’s passed on now, so I can say what I like with no attribution. But, um, I think it probably was the maternal influence. And we had talked about it where I will never forget, I think I was in year 8 or 9 at school, where I got 97% on a history test at the end of the year. And my mum said, well, what happened to the other 3%? And I was absolutely devastated. Um, and I think latterly [00:17:30] when I, I sort of questioned her on that and she said, well, I always wanted you to strive to be better. It’s like, well that’s, that’s great, but you can still pat someone on the back along the way. So I think it comes from that.

Speaker2: It’s so interesting what you’re saying here because I’ve, I’ve said things to my daughter out of love that later on I realised I really shouldn’t have said that thing. Yeah. And it’s a really interesting point that you can say something out of love and, and certain small 1 or [00:18:00] 2 words can hit someone as a kid so hard that can shape who they are for years going forward. And it’s a strange thing because, you know, it’s difficult to know, you know, what got you to that 97% was probably when you got 84%, she said. What happened to the other 17? You know what I mean? So she was doing what she was used to doing. Yeah. Anyway, let’s move on. Let’s move on. How did you find leads?

Speaker1: Oh, I loved leads. I really, really loved it. I mean, yeah, cracking [00:18:30] city really, really, really good. I mean, I think I liked it because it had everything. Well, everything that I liked had football, theatre, good shopping. As it turned out, one of my school friends that I’d, you know, we hadn’t fallen out, but we’d lost touch just because of different lives. She was living there by then, and I had really good. Classmates, I would say we were really, really close.

Speaker2: It’s a very intense course.

Speaker1: Really intense course. So I did the graduate diploma. So it was 27 [00:19:00] months, so we didn’t have the long summer breaks. We only had two weeks at Christmas and Easter. We didn’t get reading week. It was drummed into 27 months. So yeah, it was pretty full on and I was working.

Speaker2: I remember when I was in dental school, I remember the hygiene students being very serious. You know, we weren’t because we were just 18 year old kids. Yeah. You know, just came out of school and still a child and trying to party. And I remember seeing the [00:19:30] hygiene students, they were they were on another level and they were very busy. But therapy didn’t really exist back then. So explain the therapy piece to me. Like, at what point do you start drilling? Just just give us a little, you know, for someone who wants to know or maybe someone wants to get into therapy, well, what does it take to at what point do you do what in a therapy course?

Speaker1: Gosh, that’s a really good question because it probably is different now, uh, because it’s the BSc. But I mean, I remember being quite shocked [00:20:00] that it was the January. So we started in the September, and it was the January that we started, um, doing sort of no, no, no, just sort of phantom phantom head and then doing some hand scaling on each other and ultrasonics on each other. And I think it was about the May or June that we did local anaesthetics, because I remember being partnered with a Bchd that’s the Dental course they do their student. We were one of the first groups, and I wouldn’t say I’m needle [00:20:30] phobic, but I certainly don’t enjoy local anaesthetic. I’m not sure many people do, but he was he was going in for an ID block and he was just sort of waving this syringe around my face and I was like, right, stop, stop now get a shooter. You are not coming near me with that because I don’t think you know where you’re putting it. And then I remember telling the rest of the people in my group, because you did all the theory stuff in the morning and then the practical in the afternoon. And I said, right, watch the students who are paying attention, watch the ones who are putting their hand up and answering the questions. [00:21:00] That’s the person that you want. Idea. Good idea. So that’s my top tip for that. Um, although I don’t think you’re allowed to inject each other anymore. Um, and so yeah, I can’t remember what the first time I actually put a handpiece like a drill into a patient’s mouth, if you like. Remember, were you were you.

Speaker2: Like, at this point now, were you, like, seizing this opportunity and giving it 110%?

Speaker1: Oh, completely. And I was it’s funny you say about being serious because my initial reaction was, well, yes, I think that’s because often we [00:21:30] feel like we have quite a lot to prove. Uh, some, some not all of the dentist students were a little bit sneery back then and would say, oh, did you not get on to dentistry then? And we’re like, no, we wanted to be a dental hygienist and dental therapist. We’re quite happy with our life choices.

Speaker2: Well, I meant seriousness. And they were they were they were older than us. Some of them.

Speaker1: Okay. Oh, yeah.

Speaker2: But but also the course was serious. I mean, it was a full on course. There were they were constantly studying, you know, that [00:22:00] more than we were in the first year, you know, because first year was just like just come out of school knew nothing about anything.

Speaker1: Well, yeah, I mean, I was 30, say, in freshers week and I was the fifth eldest out of there was 24 of us. But I think by then and maybe again because I was in my happy place, I was a a regular B grade student, which I was quite happy with. That got the odd a, but I didn’t want to stress myself. Plus I had to work. So working at the bingo hall, funnily enough. Or in Leeds as well. Yeah, yeah. So nice because I needed money and they, [00:22:30] it paid much better than bar work and it was better hours. So I was quite often the one who, if we had an exam on a Monday or Tuesday, I’d be out on the Friday night and the others would be stressing and I’d be like, look, come on, if you don’t know it now, you’re not going to know this by Monday. Just by cramming tonight, come out and have a drink because I was yeah, I was living that 18 year old dream of not having been to uni at 18, um, and was leading the charge to go out. That was quite a bad influence I think.

Speaker2: So. So then you finished the course? Yeah. [00:23:00] What was your next move? What was your first job? Is there a is there a equivalent in therapy.

Speaker1: Well there is foundation therapy courses. There are them now I think there might have been back then, but certainly not in my area. So I’m down in East Sussex on the coast. I think my nearest one is Thames Valley, which is still running now. Uh, but yeah, there was nothing like that for me. So again, I was really fortunate. Most of my good life choices I’ve sort of fallen into. So, um, my very first job [00:23:30] was courtesy of my dental hygienist, who I had nursed for. So that was back when everybody’s address was published by the GDC. And there was a practice in Bexhill, and they’d put they’d written to all the dental hygienists in the area because they, they needed somebody and they needed them for two and a half days a week. And so my friend was. You know, she was fully, fully booked, but she sent it to me and she said, look, this is local to you. If you know, if you’re coming back to Eastbourne, why don’t you go for it? They’re happy to take newly qualified. So [00:24:00] yeah, I came back down south for a two and a half day job in Bexhill, as it was the half a day they did let me do some dental therapy. Not a lot, but I did start doing a half day a week, sort of doing some fillings and then the other. No. And both and adults, adults and children. It was a fully private practice. Um, so I think they struggled a bit sometimes with the idea of explaining who I was, what I was. Yeah, what I could do. And that did sort [00:24:30] of tail off a little bit, which is a shame.

Speaker2: I’ve seen I’ve seen therapists in different situations and I’ve got a sort of a, I don’t know, love. Hate’s the wrong word for it. It’s a there are some therapists doing fantastically well, fantastically well, earning loads of money, really happy with their lives, doing the work they want to do. And then there are some therapists who never, ever drill a tooth because they’re just hygienists. They don’t get the chance to to to even drill it. And [00:25:00] then at the very other end of it, I read on some, I’m on that hygienist, um, Facebook group hygienist and therapist, Facebook group. Some of the stories you read on there about the way some, some bosses treat their, their hygienists and and hygiene is is kind of a it’s kind of a weird position in the practice because often you’re working in several practices so you don’t feel a part of any of them. Um, I remember when I was an associate talking to the hygienist in our practice about this, you know, she was saying at the [00:25:30] Christmas party, she goes to a lot of people don’t even know her name or whatever it is, you know, like, so give me some reflections on this.

Speaker1: Yeah. You’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s quite a lot there in that last little piece. But certainly yeah, it’s Christmas party season. And you’re absolutely right. Because as a, you know, dental hygienist or dental therapist, you’re not a dentist. You’re also not one of the girls, which I hate that as a phrase, but as the dental nurses and the reception team, you are in this sort of no [00:26:00] man’s land. And yeah, if you’re only there one day a week, you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t know what’s going on. There’s people that you don’t even meet. You don’t see them, you only see them, you know, once a year at Christmas. Um, and and that’s if you’re invited, which, you know, I’m. Well, I was about to say I’m lucky, but it shouldn’t be lucky. It should be the norm. I’ve always been invited to my Christmas parties, always been included in the Secret Santa. If the boss is one of those principals who buys everyone a gift, I’ve always been included in that. But yeah, as you say on [00:26:30] the forum, and we get inquiries coming in to be searched, it’s obviously not so much an inquiry. It’s more of a they need a virtual hug. Um, where? Yeah, we’re left out of those things.

Speaker1: There’s some practices that don’t include their dental hygienist in those those events, and they’ll come back and they’ll say, oh, it’s because they’re self-employed and you’ve got to be careful with HMRC. But that doesn’t seem to apply when it’s an associate because they’re included in those things. So yeah, there very much is that. And [00:27:00] as you say, there is a very, very broad reach of what we’re our primary qualifications are. And then yeah, what we end up actually doing. And some of it is through choice and some of it is through circumstance. Some of it is through work choice as in financial limitation as well. You know, I’ve been in a lot of conversations recently about the push to get dental therapists doing some NHS work. And, and I’ve said, aside from all the other sort of political stuff, [00:27:30] if you’ve got someone who’s used to an income of five days of doing private hygiene, even if they want to do some dental therapy on the NHS, they might not be able to afford to. Um, so it’s it’s tricky, it is tricky. And there’s always going to be a compromise somewhere that either you can or you can’t afford to do or you do or you don’t want to do.

Speaker2: And as as president, you I guess you’re representing every hygienist and therapist, which is like a massive [00:28:00] spectrum of lives, isn’t it? I mean, you’ve got, I don’t know, military ones. You’ve got people who have to go into prisons, you’ve got private practice, NHS, you’ve got very happy therapists. I mean, we have therapists on our composite course. They’re doing anterior cosmetics all day long. Um, you know that, that very happy therapist. And then you’ve got people. How do you manage all that? I mean, tell me a little bit about the organisational structure of, of bchd and, [00:28:30] and there’s just going to be stretched for a second.

Speaker1: Yeah. So okay, we’ll think about Bchd then the simple answer is, is to talk about the structure, which is that, yes, there’s me, there’s a president. There’s a president elect, um, which is currently Rhiannon Jones. So you hold the position as president elect for two years, I prefer. President in waiting. I think that makes more sense. So was that.

Speaker2: You two years.

Speaker1: Ago? Yeah, yeah. So I did that role under Dianne Rochford. She was the president at that time. You [00:29:00] know Dianne. Yeah, yeah. Um. Hi, Dianne. Um, so you’re basically president in waiting. President in training for two years. So you learn that, and then you come in. So alongside those two positions, there’s director of operations. So currently that’s Sharon Broome. She’s she calls me her boss. I think of her as, as my boss. She’s the brains of the operation. She’s the person who keeps the wheels turning in the background. Very much so. We couldn’t do it without her. And then we also have honorary [00:29:30] treasurer, who currently is Simone and honorary secretary, who is currently Juliette. So all of these.

Speaker2: People are hygienists, right? And they’re wet fingered. They’re not working full time on the.

Speaker1: Sharon is not she’s she she is not. Um, but we poached her from the Oral Health Foundation. So she had years of dental experience and yeah, she she’s been with us for a very long time now. So she very much father. Well, so we’re the five directors. Yeah. Of the of the organisation. [00:30:00] There’s another 4 or 5 that sit alongside us within the executive committee. So that includes the editor of the journal Sales and Marketing. We have a student representative coordinator who takes care of the students in all the schools. And then we have two people who come from the council. So they’re elected. They’re council members elected to exec, and they are basically the voice of the membership, if you like, at exec level. Then we also [00:30:30] have the council. So that’s all of those ten people in exec plus a representative from each of the regional groups. We have a tutor representative who takes care of the tutors and all the dental schools for us. And we also have two student representatives to give us the student voice. So the whole council will meet twice a year. The council will meet six times, sorry. The Executive Council will meet six times a year. And then alongside that, people in the office who again make the magic happen. [00:31:00] We’ve got Tracy, Selina and Louisa. So Selina is responsible for all the beautiful stuff that goes out on social media. She does all our job adverts plus 101 other things that I can’t even list. Tracy takes care of the membership a lot of the time and Louisa takes care of the finances.

Speaker2: And so, okay, you’ve you’ve obviously kind of navigated your way through some of that, some of that. Right? Yeah. Um, what difference does it make, like does the president make the biggest difference? Like [00:31:30] do you, do you, do you come in and say when you’re when you’re, when you’re about to start being the president, do you say, look, my agenda for the next two years is X and we’re going to the, the ship is going to sail in this direction now or is that not the case? Is that not how it works?

Speaker1: Um, well, it possibly should do or could do. Um, again, like I say, I sort of fell into it, really. I’d always been a member of Bchd. I’d been what I would call a passive member. Um, and that’s that’s one thing I would like [00:32:00] to get out to people who are perhaps not members, because I had a conversation with somebody like 20 years younger than me, who’s been qualified for two years, who’s not a member. And part of the reason was, she said, that she felt she’d have to do something. And I was being a member. Yeah. And I was like, oh no, no, you can if you want to, but you don’t have to. You can just pay your subscription, take the journal and that’s it. You don’t even have to read the journal. Well, I would because it’s really good. But yeah, just pay your subs, be one of one of our members, be one of our collective and help support [00:32:30] us just in that way. So I’d been a passive member for a really long time, and then the Southeast regional group needed a treasurer. They couldn’t get somebody in and they were saying, you know, if we can’t get someone, we might have to fold. And I thought, well, that’d be dreadful. Somebody really needs to do that. And I sat on that for a couple of days, and then I decided that I might as well give it a go. You must.

Speaker2: Be attending. Not even there.

Speaker1: No, no, she just heard.

Speaker2: On the grapevine they need a treasurer.

Speaker1: I’d seen it on Facebook. Wow. Because their [00:33:00] autumn meeting was always the weekend of my birthday, and, well, I’m not going to go and do CPD on my birthday.

Speaker2: And was this really the first time you’d gotten yourself involved in an organisation with meetings and boards and council members and. Yeah. How interesting.

Speaker1: Yeah, again. So I sort of fell into that. And then I was invited to stand for honorary treasurer when my predecessor wanted to stand down. She’d done it for five years, so that she said she spoke to a couple of us. And so I went for it and got it. And then it was one day travelling home on the train with Diane [00:33:30] after a meeting. We were just chatting about when she became president, and I just said, you know, who’s going to be your president elect then? And she said, well, I kind of thought you might be, so don’t be stupid. Once again, I can’t do that. I can’t be president. That’s not me. I’m a great number two. And then other people started to say, are you going to stand for. And so again, I thought, well, you know what? These other people think I can do it. So if they’ve got trust in me, then maybe I should. And so then, yeah, [00:34:00] when I’d said yes, people started to say to me, what’s your plan? What’s your direction? What’s your strategy for the two years you’re president and really the best I can come up with, which I hope I’m on the way to doing, is just to make stuff better. And that’s that’s that’s it’s really woolly. But, you know, for my members, for the members of the profession because, yeah, there’s I think currently there’s about 9000 9500 dental hygienists on the register. And yes, to make stuff better, like you say, for that [00:34:30] whole mixture of demography of what I call the high street of hygienists, those working in community, those in the military, those in academia, those in research, you know, we’re we’re everywhere. You know, we’re great dental hygienists and dental therapists are getting it everywhere now, you know, we’re unstoppable. And so to try and consider each of those groups is difficult. They’re not mutually exclusive. But the bulk of my membership [00:35:00] is the high street hygienist, which again, I don’t like that.

Speaker2: Terme, have you got a breakdown of the demos? Like like what percentage are actually in practice? What percentage.

Speaker1: Are not? I would do but not to hand.

Speaker2: But the vast majority are in practice.

Speaker1: Absolutely a good second, if not more.

Speaker2: What’s the second biggest group? Would it be? Academics?

Speaker1: I guess yeah. Academics, teachers, tutors. Yeah, probably. But I know that there’s yeah, there’s a good few in the military [00:35:30] in community. But again, at the same time we’re not solely in one area. Yeah. Even those who are in academia will still be doing some clinical work in practice as well. Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Speaker2: Yeah. So that’s that’s what makes it more complicated and diverse. What about the sort of male female? How many men are in it? Is it tiny?

Speaker1: It’s small but growing. Um, I think in terms of I think the last check, I think on the register, it was something [00:36:00] like between 8 and 10%, 10%. It’s getting more. That’s possibly in Dental. Or maybe that’s what we had as a proportion of members who were men who were on the register. I can’t remember now because it’s a little while back. But the numbers. Across the board of dental hygienist and dental therapists. They’re now being grown by our colleagues from overseas who are registering as such. So a lot of them are dentists qualified in their country that have now joined the register. So [00:36:30] that will skew it slightly potentially. And then I think as well, now that there are more men rightly coming into dental nursing and coming into dental therapy, which then also dental hygiene, I think it’s growing. I think it’s a much less feminised profession than it was. But we’re a long way off being 5050, I think.

Speaker2: Has there ever been a man president?

Speaker1: Yes. Mike Wheeler yeah. Michael Wheeler, we have our male. Yeah.

Speaker2: It’s funny having [00:37:00] it the other way around, isn’t it? Like these questions get asked in every other society for for women.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: And back way, way, way back in the day Gerald Leatherman was also a president, you know, way, way, way, way, way back. Uh, he was a really important man. But yeah, Mike Wheeler was president when we changed. He had he had quite a tricky time of it, but he was president at the time when we changed from the British Dental Hygienist Association into the British Society of Dental Hygiene and Therapy.

Speaker2: And of the 9000 [00:37:30] potential members, how many are.

Speaker1: Off the top of my head. I think we’re currently about a third.

Speaker2: Still two thirds of conscientious objectors.

Speaker1: I don’t know if I knew that answer might be out there getting them in.

Speaker2: Is it is there another association that they’re members of or not?

Speaker1: Well, yeah, there’s we do have another organisation. There’s the British Association of Dental Therapists.

Speaker2: Yeah. Yeah. No I know about them.

Speaker1: So yeah, they also take [00:38:00] care of both our groups. And yeah, we can be members of like BSP, Bspd and all the other bees that are out there. You can be a member of any of them.

Speaker2: If you want hygienists or therapists. Right.

Speaker1: So we’re the only two.

Speaker2: The only two. Yeah. And and the budget was like what kind of budget are you guys managing? Is it like, does it run into many millions.

Speaker1: No.

Speaker4: Does it not not.

Speaker1: Not to that degree, no. I wouldn’t have said so. I mean I’m not treasurer anymore. So [00:38:30] I haven’t had sight of many numbers and I don’t keep numbers in my head very well anyway.

Speaker2: It’s a massive responsibility isn’t it? It is. It’s because it’s such a fast growing area. And I’ve always thought, you know, with hygienists, I’m just going to say hygienist because hygienist, the therapist, the the angle on the trade is massive, isn’t it? Because the people who supply you guys are the biggest, some of the biggest companies in the world, not just the biggest companies in dentistry, [00:39:00] the biggest companies in the world. And so, you know, trade relations is probably a huge, huge part of it. And, you know, potentially you guys can be a very powerful force, right. So how many people turn up to the conference?

Speaker1: Uh, well, at the last conference, uh, just a few weeks back, we had about 350, which was good. I think back before Covid, it used to be higher. Um, and it’s, it’s grown each year since the pandemic. I think I’d like to see more. [00:39:30] And I really would like to encourage more people to come because, you know, the bigger the better. And yeah, we do get a good trade support. In fact, a lot of what we do, we struggle to do without the trade support. Um, and that’s everything from people who just advertise with us to sponsor courses for us. Um, you know, they support all manner of different things. So, yeah. And we are, I suppose, part of the block that some people would consider is that we don’t have purchasing power. But I would say, [00:40:00] well, a lot of us well, not a lot a good number own practices. And I think we have influence and being that most of us and that is that’s a fact. Our self-employed quite often we’re buying our own kit and our own things anyway, so we do have a fair bit of buying power and influence. And so yeah, certainly the big companies are always really supportive of us.

Speaker4: So Miranda, if I.

Speaker2: Know that organisations are quite slow to move and you know that a lot of times you find out, [00:40:30] I mean, I’ve only ever been on 1 or 2 sort of boards of things and I’m just a bit ADHD bad in meetings, you know? Um, but whenever you get into a situation like that, you realise how slow it is and what a sort of massive tanker. The thing is that you have to turn and the number of people you’ve got to consider and all of that. And for me it’s kind of demotivating, but but I guess, you know, you could be the kind of person who says, I’m going to try and speed up that process. Right. But but the question is this the [00:41:00] question I’m getting to is, if you could wave a magic wand and change 2 or 3 things about hygiene therapy in an instant without having to bother yourself with any of that, what comes to mind when I say that? What would you change?

Speaker1: Oh gosh, I think currently that the biggest thing that really has been dragging on for far too long is the exemptions legislation. What does that mean? So basically that’s to permit dental hygienist and dental therapists to administer local anaesthetic and high strength [00:41:30] fluoride products without the need of a prescription from a dentist, you know, which we always did. And then there was a name change and legislation changed. And anyway, it’s all a bit complicated, but we’ve been fighting to get permission for this since about 2014, 2015 now, and I believe it is around the corner. And that’s what I’ve learned. Exactly. What you’ve said is that things do take such a long time. And before I was in these rooms, round these tables, having these meetings, I never understood that. [00:42:00] And so, yeah, we see it a lot on social media. We get emails coming in saying, when is this happening? We haven’t heard anything about this. And now I can understand the frustration from the outside because now I’m on the inside of those rooms. Yeah, it’s a lot of these things are out of our hands. So I would get that done. Definitely. Another thing that would help, again, only a small proportion probably of my membership and of the profession, but nonetheless it would mean a lot to those people [00:42:30] and that would be to sort out an NHS pension. So those who are working in the NHS sector. But I would extend that across to all team members, I think. Anyone who’s working in an NHS practice, offering dental care in that way should be fairly rewarded for that. I think that would help with retention of team members across the board. So if I have my magic wand, I’d do that. Um, they’re probably the biggest the two biggest things in my mind at the moment. And [00:43:00] yeah, I’d magic all of the registrants to become members because that will help ensure the longevity of the society. It will help with succession planning. It will help us to do bigger and better things to better the membership, you know, conditions for the membership.

Speaker2: But what about like a qualitative change, as in, what I mean is, if you could, if you could, for instance, click your fingers and, uh, I don’t know, dentists, dentists would, would respect hygienists [00:43:30] more.

Speaker4: Some.

Speaker2: Something like that. But by the way, by the way, yeah, every time I’ve had a hygienist on here, I’ve had this, this thing come up of we deserve more recognition sort of thing. And I never knew it was a problem until I spoke to a few itchiness here. I didn’t, I really didn’t think. And I was talking to some of the, you know, highest profile hygienists in the country. And, and, and I was shocked even that hygienist was saying something about it, you know, so I thought, you know, wave a magic [00:44:00] wand, something like that, or wave a magic wand. And patients would know that, you know, the diet’s as important as, uh, their brushing, you know, like, you know, whatever, those sort of. Okay.

Speaker1: I suppose I was going for something that I thought might actually happen. Um.

Speaker4: Oh, brilliant.

Speaker1: No, I think, well, yeah, I mean, I could tell you some stories, but I know we’d probably run out of time, but. No. Tell me story.

Speaker4: Tell me a story.

Speaker2: No, really, I mean it. I mean, tell me a story.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker1: I [00:44:30] don’t know. Well, I suppose just stories of practices that I’ve left. And I look back and I think, gosh, if I’m struggling and yeah, I’m president. How is your average high street hygiene is coping. And I should say it’s a bit like the not all men argument. It’s not all dentists. Some dentists are great. In fact, many of them are great. Um, and I’m lucky enough at the moment now, you know, to work with a lot of those people. But I think it’s I think it stems from a not understanding and are not trusting [00:45:00] what we can do, sort of a protectionist attitude from some who feel threatened by us. And that message doesn’t really change for the last 100 years, when in fact, you know, there’s loads of diseases, loads of patients around for all of us. But in terms of specific examples, a job that I ultimately left was when my light wasn’t working in my room, my chair light, and we tried. We changed the bulb and it still wouldn’t work. And no, I didn’t have loops back then and there wasn’t a room [00:45:30] I could go into. So I took the decision to cancel my day. I rung my patients myself and explained, you know, my light doesn’t work. I don’t feel safe to poke about in your mouth or sharp pointy sticks. They are all absolutely fine. They all rebooked for another day. And then I got a letter from the principal telling me that it wasn’t my place to be cancelling my day of patients, and I should have seen them regardless. I’d lost my day of money. Yeah. What? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that was just one of many things that [00:46:00] happened at that place that I ended up leaving. You know, going in there wasn’t appropriately sized gloves.

Speaker1: Never mind enough gloves. There was no masks. Yeah, I left there and then, I suppose more recently, being challenged on how I treat my perio patients or patients that don’t have perio, but just my dental hygiene patients battling with one dentist who didn’t want to refer, uh, plan patients to me because they were he would have to pay me [00:46:30] to see those patients, and therefore it would come off his monthly take home. And he said, why should I pay you to see my patients when I can do it myself? And I said, because I do it better. That wasn’t the answer that was required. Um, but yeah, so there was that. And then, I don’t know, just a current thing is sort of telling me that dentistry should hurt. And don’t worry if the ultrasonics, two powerful [00:47:00] patients will just deal with it. And I’m like, no, no, patients shouldn’t just deal with it. We should be able to turn the power down and make it comfortable for them, you know? And probing should hurt. No probing shouldn’t hurt. It shouldn’t hurt. And so this I feel quite often almost gaslit by some people that I I’m pretty sure that I know that I’m right. You know, I’m a member of BSP. I go to there, I went to their conference, I do my CPD. And yet [00:47:30] sometimes some of these dentists that I work alongside are so adamant and set that they know what’s right and that what I’m saying and doing is wrong. I then start to question myself. So then I have to go and talk to my mentors. And they’re a good sounding board and they say, no, no, you’re fine. Just keep your head down. Just carry on. Just keep trying to push back. And ultimately I’m doing the right thing.

Speaker4: Comes, comes, comes down.

Speaker2: To hierarchy in a way, doesn’t it? Because. Oh yeah. Because I’m [00:48:00] not sure that that what you said about the guy feeling threatened by you is necessarily. I mean, I guess it’s all part of the same thing, right? It’s part of the same thing. But the, the hierarchy that says even if the dentist doesn’t know the answer to the question, he’ll have to pretend he does. Or even if he’s way like, you know, if I’m a newly qualified therapist, my knowledge is going to be much, much, much more up to date than a dentist who hasn’t looked at period for the last 25 [00:48:30] years, you know? Um, but but you can’t admit that as a dentist, it’s such a difficult thing to admit that the hygienist or therapist knows more than you about something. And, you know, it’s interesting because your job to make the lives of hygienists and therapists better. At the end of the day is going to be about, I think, about making them more financially viable. Because I think I told [00:49:00] you a story. We had a Canadian hygienist who used to work at enlighten, not as a hygienist. She was working in sales at enlighten, and she would tell me that in Canada, the hygienist earned way more than the associates in her particular state because of whitening and fluoride treatments. And, you know, they go a bit crazy on fluoride in North America. They almost every single patient gets a fluoride treatment. And and she was telling me that, you know, whatever she wanted, whether it was [00:49:30] a nurse, whether it was a, you know, a piece of equipment, that the dentist would immediately get that for her because hygienists and therapists are so, so hard to get, let alone good ones who make clothes. And, you know, the way she said it to me was, was that they’re absolutely necessary for the business. You know, they bring in loads of money and that needs to be the thing. Like you need to, I guess, lobby for that change. For instance, the giving the injections without a prescription will make things, you [00:50:00] know, more viable. You know. Yeah.

Speaker1: I think I.

Speaker4: Would say.

Speaker1: Yeah. Having a dental hygienist within your practice is it’s good for reputation. It’s a good practice builder, especially if they’re happy to work under direct access. So it’s a nice way of attracting patients into the building, especially sort of reluctant patients that don’t like don’t like dentists, but they want their teeth cleaned. It’s quite a nice reintroduction back into dentistry again and again. I think there’s plenty of practice owners principles [00:50:30] out there who do get that and who do value their teams. And and I think we are very much respected and valued and needed. But I think you you mentioned recognition and you mentioned ways of, you know, becoming higher earners. And I think it’s that is something that does come up when I talk to members and colleagues, for example, those of us that have done a master’s, you know, we can never currently call ourselves specialists. You know, you might have done I haven’t, [00:51:00] but you might have done a master’s in Perio Essex, for example. But you can’t ever be a periodontist because you’re not a dentist. You can’t unless you set your fees yourself. You know you’re not going to get more pay. But and if you’re in the NHS, you know there’s no career progression in that way. So I think if those things could change and if there was more recognition of that, say, the extra courses, like you mentioned, the dental therapists that have, you know, done your courses and who are doing all this [00:51:30] fantastic composite work, you know, there’s some really highly skilled clinicians out there.

Speaker4: Yeah, by the.

Speaker2: Way, they they always win the prize when we do a we do a thing for the best the best work. And they, they, they very commonly win the prize. And then normally we’ll have 1 or 2 therapists and 28 dentists in the, in the room. I wonder whether it’s like a self-selecting group, you know, the kind of person who bothers to come on a composite course and pay 1500 pounds for a two day course, might be the kind of person who’s [00:52:00] really, like, gonna gonna do the work well and practice or whatever. But, you know, it’s an interesting question, isn’t it? Um, the other thing is, I’ve always been I’m sorry to keep beating my own drum here, but I’ve always been surprised at how few hygienists and therapists are onto whitening as talking income source. Right? As as an income source, you know, everyone’s onto the idea of, oh, tell the patient to buy an electric toothbrush, but no one’s making any money by that. By selling electric toothbrushes, I mean, there’s [00:52:30] just not enough money in one, you know what I mean? How much do they cost? But whereas if you if I was a principal, which I’ve never been, but if I was a principal, I would always tell the high achievers to spend extra time, any extra talking time on whitening for sure. Because such a high value treatment. Yeah.

Speaker1: I mean, I’ve done Diane’s course the last year. I went to her practice and did that because I was interested and I wanted to know a little bit more about it because, yeah, I do talk about it. But in my position in the practices [00:53:00] I work in, there’s not a massive take up of it. The dentists all do it. And the fact that still there’s a situation where the patient would have to see the dentist first to have it written up to be done, the dentist just ends up doing it.

Speaker4: Yeah, but you can work that out.

Speaker2: Surely you can work that out, right?

Speaker1: Well, possibly, if I was more driven to do it, I possibly could. Obviously I can’t speak for other people. It depends what the situation is. So at the moment, I’m not keen to rock the boat anywhere I work because [00:53:30] they’re being really flexible with me. Um, but yeah, I guess if one was driven enough you could. But while that barrier is still in place, it is harder.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: Let’s get back to your career. So you did that first job?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker2: What happened next?

Speaker1: Oh, crikey. Um, well, it took me about a year before I got up to five days a week. Um, that was one thing that my dental hygienist friend said to me. She said, don’t panic, don’t rush. She [00:54:00] basically said, you’ll be absolutely knackered. And she was right. My hands used to really hurt by the end of the day. So for about the first three months, I only did two and a half days a week. And yeah, I was richer than I’d ever been and I’d been a student for two and a half years, so financially I was, I was fine. And so then I slowly built up to doing a five day week by the end of the year. And then yeah, just sort of worked in practice. Been bored along for four years or so. So then got involved with start.

Speaker2: Was [00:54:30] this all in um near in East Sussex?

Speaker1: East Sussex yeah, sort of around.

Speaker4: She went back to Hastings East after Leeds.

Speaker1: Yeah. I would have stayed in Leeds. And I’ve got a friend up there who’s desperate to get me back up there, but I just couldn’t get a job. All of the jobs at that time all wanted two years experience. So I ended up going where the work was. So I’ve sort of stayed down south. It’s where my dad still is, and my sister’s down this way as well. So yeah, did that. And then it was [00:55:00] it was 2016. I was at the dentistry show in, in Birmingham wandering around and, and I bumped into Debbie Reed from University of Kent and she was quite persuasive, tried to talk me into doing her master’s program at Kent. But barrier number one, of course I wasn’t clever enough. So there’s no there’s no point me even trying to do that. And barrier number two was I couldn’t afford it because you had to pay up front. So then if you fast forward a year, sort of early January [00:55:30] 2017, that’s when my mum passed away. Back at the dentistry show in the May, Debbie Reed is there again. She says, I remember you. I spoke to you at length last year, why didn’t you come and sign up? So I did my bit about how I’m not clever enough and she said, well, I’ll be the judge of that, come in for an interview, we’ll have a chat. And then I said, oh, well, I can’t afford it anyway. And then she said, oh, well, now there’s postgraduate loans available. So that’s not an excuse. So I said, okay, fine, fine. Um, [00:56:00] so I went in, had an interview slash chat, and by then I kind of thought, well, mum was an educationalist, she was a teacher and it fitted in quite nicely with my thing of proving to myself that I was clever enough and I was good enough. So yeah, I started that in the September of 2017.

Speaker2: And was a master’s in hygiene.

Speaker1: No, it’s advanced, sorry, advanced specialist healthcare and then brackets applied dental professional practice. [00:56:30] So yeah. So basically not a clinical one, not a hands on one. What I loved about it was it sits very well with my personality in that I’m the why child. I am the original why why I need to know why and what I’m doing and why am I doing this. And so this master’s was essentially the theoretical underpinning, the why of the what that we do. And what was clever is you could, you know, it was open to all members [00:57:00] of the dental team. Within my group, there was three of us who were dental hygienists, and we had one dental nurse. But, you know, across the board it was open to everybody.

Speaker2: A part time course.

Speaker1: Yeah. So it was that was the other thing that was key was that it was part time over three years. So the first year was roughly six weekends, second year was five, third year was four. And then it finished off with your bit of research research project and a dissertation at the end. So we were really lucky that we finished that in [00:57:30] the May that the pandemic had started. So when we all shut down, that was about two weeks before my final dissertation was due. So I was pretty much ready. But I was like, wicked, I’ve got two weeks of writing time now, so I made good use of those first two weeks.

Speaker4: Was it on?

Speaker1: Um, I spoke to smoking cessation advisors about what? They talk to their clients about the relationship and smoking and tooth loss. And I can distil 12,000 words down to two, [00:58:00] and it’s basically they don’t.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: Excellent.

Speaker1: Uh, but yeah, smoking cessation is something that I’ve always been quite passionate about, quite interested in. And it just struck me as strange that within dentistry, it’s one of the first things. We’re taught, you know, second to clean your teeth. The second thing is stop smoking. And having had a number of patients over the years that have stopped smoking because I’ve said to them, you could lose your teeth. I thought it would be interesting to find out what the smoking [00:58:30] cessation advisers are telling their clients, because I thought, you know, this might be the button that that individual needs pushing. That might be the key to get somebody to stop smoking. But I eventually found that it’s it’s within their training, but it’s sort of seen as secondary training. It’s not in their their primary training, if you like. So you may never ever find out that it could happen. I mean.

Speaker2: On that subject, yeah, the question of behaviour change must be huge for hygienists in general, right. [00:59:00] Well is there is there much of the course devoted to that sort of the psychology of that, getting someone to change what they do?

Speaker4: Oh, crikey.

Speaker1: This was 14 years ago. Payman. I really I don’t remember.

Speaker4: I mean.

Speaker2: Look what you just.

Speaker4: Said. What you just said there, what you just said there.

Speaker2: Yeah. Using the teeth to get someone to stop smoking. Like, for instance, just for the sake of the argument, if you had a intraoral camera and you could see if a patient could see the plaque and see what we see, they would they they [00:59:30] they would definitely not. Definitely. But they would they would more likely change their behaviour. And so that’s you know, that’s a very obvious way to show them what you said is another is another is another way. But behaviour change is such a big thing in dentistry in general. Right. Because you know like we were talking about diet. Um, it must be the hygienist must, must have to get taught or look into that, you know that. What is it? What are the things that make people change their behaviour?

Speaker4: Yeah, I remember.

Speaker1: Doing [01:00:00] a small amount around smoking cessation when I was in Leeds, and I remember having to talk to people about alcohol limits. But it was very much just around the. What are you doing? This is what you should be doing. And that was it. I think because there’s so much to learn in such a short space of time, you’re basically sent out as a safe beginner. And I would say the bulk of this is what I’ve picked up subsequently doing CPD and just [01:00:30] life. Just simply life. Just talking to patients, what works, what doesn’t, and obviously being aware that what works for one person might not work for another one. But I think that’s just yeah, I don’t think I’ve really been taught that. I think that’s just intuition. I think that’s years of working on holiday parks, working with people, knowing people when you can be a bit cheeky, when you have to be quite proper, you know, you can do all these tests, can’t you? You can give your patients colours and stuff. I don’t do [01:01:00] that sort of stuff. I just sort of listen to how they talk and sort of go from that. The words that they use a.

Speaker2: Feel for it.

Speaker4: Yeah. So, you know, I always used.

Speaker2: To surprise me, I haven’t been a dentist for, for, you know, 12 years now, but but what used to surprise me when I was a dentist was that the relationship between dentists and hygienists was purely period based, although it sounds like that’s what it should be. I used to think, what a what an opportunity. You’ve got someone who goes at every single patient you see goes and sees this [01:01:30] other person and and why isn’t there more? By the way, I used to try. I used to try and make it more like this, but why isn’t there more sort of talking outside of how the gums. Yeah. Like you know, what’s what does this patient’s goals, what are they likely to do. What aren’t they likely to do. And you know, you’ve got you’ve got two different touch points there. Dentist hygienist and of course reception. Right.

Speaker1: And the dental nurse.

Speaker2: Well of course, well of course. But the.

Speaker4: Patient’s in the.

Speaker2: Room. Dental nurse was in the room. And [01:02:00] I felt like with the dental nurse you could set up whatever you wanted. So. So I was very happy to let the dental nurse do everything. Everything she wanted, like, you know, pick shades, call up patients. She used to really enjoy calling up patients, you know, to make her feel like she’s doing worthwhile job. But I always stand by this dental nurse is a running the whole show. Like they don’t even get to stop when you stop, right? They keep on going. Right? So they’re very, very, very busy. Um, what’s the [01:02:30] story? What’s the latest with hygienists and nurses? Is it now, is it now like a common thing or is it still. Are there still hygienists working without nurses?

Speaker1: I would say yes and yes. Um it is. Yeah. It is a lot more common. But there are still people out there who are working unsupported, some of them happily, some of them willingly. You know, they’re they’re quite content with that. And they feel that they can do a good enough job as they are. And then there’s others that are doing it sort of under sufferance and with difficulty. I [01:03:00] think one of the issues, you know, we’re quite often asked our stance on this, and I think we would hesitate to push for it to become mandatory. Some would like us to push for it to be mandatory, but I think I sit on the side of it should be best practice. It should be the gold standard, but I would stop short of must because there is a large Dental group who went through a period where they did give all of their dental hygiene as a dental [01:03:30] nurse, but then on the day that the nurse was sick, or somebody else’s dental nurse was sick and they were borrowed, they then had their day cancelled and then they were on a, you know, a Facebook forum saying, my day has been cancelled. Can they do this so well? Yeah, they can if you mandate it that you will not work unless you have a dental nurse, then yeah, your day will be cancelled. And that would be my hesitation, is that people would end up losing money. They’d end up losing a day’s work.

Speaker2: But why wouldn’t they get [01:04:00] a supply one?

Speaker4: Well, sometimes.

Speaker1: You can get locums, sometimes they’re simply not available, and sometimes the other practice won’t pay for them.

Speaker2: So it’s surely a practice that has a hygienist, has a nurse, makes more money than a hygienist that doesn’t have a nurse, surely, because in the time it takes her to to clean this room, she could be talking about whitening.

Speaker4: True.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah, they could certainly be having more conversations if they weren’t stressing about.

Speaker2: I’m saying whitening, but they could be talking about, [01:04:30] you know, oral hygiene. They could be about anything. They could be talking about anything.

Speaker4: What is that.

Speaker2: Genius thing EMS have come out with, uh, guided?

Speaker1: Oh, the guided biofilm therapy.

Speaker2: I’ve got a I’ve got to take my hat off to the marketing man that came up with that man.

Speaker4: It’s very smart, beautiful. But yeah.

Speaker1: They have. Yeah, they’ve reinvented biofilm and Toothbrushing and. Yeah.

Speaker2: They’ve made hygiene cool haven’t they.

Speaker4: Yeah, it’s.

Speaker1: They really have. It’s it’s a pretty cool piece of kit. I mean I don’t [01:05:00] have one in practice. I don’t think I ever will. No, no.

Speaker4: Oh no I know yeah.

Speaker1: But I know people who use it love it. They think it’s great. Their patients love it. So. Yeah.

Speaker2: Those two I.

Speaker4: Keep coming across. Yeah.

Speaker2: Yeah, absolutely. Let’s get to darker times.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker2: On on this pod, we like to talk about mistakes.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker2: You could take this any way you like clinical mistakes, management mistakes, career mistakes, regrets, that sort of thing. What comes to mind when I [01:05:30] say mistakes so that some something that someone can learn from?

Speaker1: Well, I had a couple of clinical ones in mind. And then when you use the word regret, that pinged me back to my entertainment time, actually. Um, probably literally the only regret of my life. Um, but I can give you a couple of clinical based ones or learning points, I think, because. Yeah, that. Yeah, mistakes. Probably a bit dramatic, but I think the first time [01:06:00] that I realised a bit more about I was quite early on in my career. But yeah, talking to patients like really, really talking to them, really getting to know them. I had a mr. and a mrs., um, older couple, quite a bit older, and I had the Mr. in first and he wasn’t, he was brushing his teeth reasonably well, but he wasn’t really cleaning in between them. And I tried to go over using an interdental brush with him, but he wasn’t really getting it, wasn’t really looking in the mirror, didn’t want to try it himself, and [01:06:30] I just probably huffed and I rolled and said, okay, fine. All right. You know, do what you like kind of thing. And I probably wouldn’t. Hopefully, I don’t think I would have said that. But basically do what you like. You know, they all cease. Do it. Don’t do it. There’s not a lot else I can do and possibly got a bit frustrated. And off he went. And then we got the Mrs. in and how are you and blah blah blah. And then oh you’ve just seen my husband.

Speaker1: Yes. Yes, I’ve just seen your husband. And then she told me that he’d recently had a diagnosis of Parkinson’s and was finding it really [01:07:00] difficult to hold things, grip things, finding it really hard to clean his teeth. And of course, in my head I’m like, oh, wow, that wasn’t on the medical form. He never mention that. He never said when I was trying to show him stuff. Well, actually, I can’t hold that. So. But to her, obviously, I was just like, oh, thank you so much for telling me. I’ll keep that in mind for the future. And then yeah, afterwards kicking myself because, I mean, I’d asked him any changes [01:07:30] in your medical history he’d elected to say no. You know, he could have told me. But then, equally, when I was demonstrating it now, I would say, do your fingers work how you want them to. Do you think you could hold this? Can you move your wrist? Can you move your hand? I’m not quite so quick just to take it as a hard no. As in, I’m not interested. Now I think more about. Okay, why I’m about to being. Why. I mean, unless obviously [01:08:00] they’re quite adamant and I’ve tried a couple of times and I might just leave it eventually, but um, so yeah, that was one to really look at the why. And then my other most recent learning point, which I am quite passionate about now and yeah, kicked to myself because I’m big on smoking cessation, was my guy Tony, who I’m allowed to name because he gave his consent and he let me write about him in my journal.

Speaker1: A couple of years ago. I’d been taking care of Tony for about [01:08:30] 5 or 6 years, and he had a patch of lichen planus on the side of his tongue. Non-smoker, vegetarian. Cleaned his teeth pretty well, but he liked to come every three months because he probably liked to chat. He lived on his own with his cat. Then he broke a tooth down the lower left. The tongue flared up. He had it. Had the tooth. The filling replaced. Tongue still didn’t settle. Changed the amalgam for composite. Still didn’t settle. He’d been backwards and forward. Previously. He’d had the [01:09:00] area biopsied. It was just lichen planus. Then I saw him in January 2020, and he’d had a biopsy taken of it because it had been really bothering me, getting a bit sore. It was getting bigger, you know. He was he was worried and third placed him. He’d gone to his GP who’d referred him in because they knew his history, and he was due to get his results in the April. And I was sort of thinking, oh, I could ring him. No, sorry. I was due to see him in the April. He was due to get his results in the February, and I thought I could ring him and I thought, [01:09:30] no, no, I’ll leave it because I’ll be seeing him soon enough.

Speaker1: And um, so I never rung him. And then of course, the pandemic hit. We shut for three months. I didn’t come back to work at that practice till the 1st of July. As luck would have it, he’d got himself booked in. Like I say, he was always really keen. He was my first patient after lunch and he sat down and said, how you doing, Tony? How’s things? And he opened his mouth and stuck his tongue out. And I was like, well, okay, that’s how things are. And yeah, it was a squamous [01:10:00] cell carcinoma. And he’d known about it since that day in February. Not obviously not been able to see anybody because everything had been shut. He’d elected to have no treatment. Again, I didn’t know the why at that point and I possibly could have asked, but I was just like blown away because having lost my mum to cancer, who’d also basically said she wouldn’t have any treatment, it was too late for her anyway, but she wouldn’t have had it. You know, you’re very aware of wanting to encourage people to do [01:10:30] the right thing, but then what is the right thing? And having to be respectful of his choice not to engage. And plus he’s there for me to clean his teeth. So, you know, that’s what I had to get on and do. So, um, off he went. But he was really in my head.

Speaker1: So I spoke to his dentist and I just said this, this just doesn’t sit right. And his dentist said, well, you’re, you know, you need to talk to him. Then you need to talk some sense into him. I said, oh, is it my place? And he went, well, he likes you. And if you don’t do it, who [01:11:00] will? So I say, okay. Fair enough. So I’d already got his consent to take his email, to send some resources, and to look up some stuff to help with his dry mouth and his sore mouth. So I dropped him a line and said, I’d really like to meet you and have a chat if that’s okay. So he agreed, and we met the following week in the park, and pretty much straight away after we’d exchange pleasantries, he said, I have changed my mind. I’d like to engage, you know, can you make that happen for me? So I was like, right. Yeah. [01:11:30] Got hold of a really good friend of mine, Adeel Khan, my hero in Hastings. This was the Wednesday he got him seen on the Friday morning at Max Fox with the team. And then Tony, I said, you know, ring me when when you’re done. Let me know how you get on. And unfortunately, by then it was so invasive into the tongue. That it would have been like full tongue removal, and he was already quite a slender man anyway.

Speaker1: So type one diabetic, vegetarian, not a huge eater. And [01:12:00] he just said that’s not for me. It was like mid 60s. So I’m too old for all that. I’m not I’m not going to do that. I don’t want to do that. But at least they he was sorted out with his palliative care and he was on some good pain relief. So they took care of him. And so then yeah, he agreed. I said, can I write about you? Um, you know, we’ve been watching you for years. I want to sort of demonstrate how things can turn. And he was like, yeah, absolutely. If I can help anybody, I’d be really happy for you to tell my story. And I said, can you write me a paragraph like [01:12:30] From Your Side, like your experience of this, which he did. And it was only when I read his paragraph and he had sight of it. He never saw it published, but he did have sight of the final article signed off, said he was happy for it to go, but he passed away before we published it in the November. But in his paragraph, it turned out that about ten years prior to me meeting him, he’d quit smoking. But up till then he was on about 40 a day. So I’d never, ever asked [01:13:00] if he was a former smoker. I just took it as, yeah, he’s a non-smoker, I assume I never asked, have you ever and and it may or may not have made a difference.

Speaker1: I mean, we don’t know. And we don’t know if he’d sought treatment in the February if he’d still be around. We simply don’t know. But my learning point from that is, yeah, don’t take stuff at face value. Again, go a little bit deeper. Have you ever smoked to not hesitate with is it my place [01:13:30] because he lived on his own. He had got family, but they were far, far away and as it was, I ended up. It was ever so sweet. I was in the email round robin that he sent to about 30 of his friends altogether, telling them what was going on. I went to the funeral, met all his friends. Apparently he used to talk about me all the time. Um, to a number of them, met the widow of his best mate, who it turned out had also had a tongue cancer, who had had surgery. [01:14:00] And then it had come back and she told me that that was why Tony had decided not to proceed with treatment, because he was worried that the same would happen to him, that he’d go through it all, and it had come back anyway. So she said, you know, there was nothing you could have said. You’d never would have changed his mind. Um, so that was an interesting learning point. And so now, yeah, I tell his story as much as I can because that’s what he wanted me to do.

Speaker2: You know, a lot of times bereavement and guilt tend [01:14:30] to go together, don’t they? It’s just it’s just one of those things. We all blame ourselves when someone near to us dies. Um, but I read your post about him and it was incredibly tender, incredibly tender post. What a lovely thing. And you know, you’re saying he used to talk about you all the time. So, yeah, you know, you had a massive influence there. That’s a lovely story, a lovely story. Not what I was expecting. I was expecting something totally different. But it really enjoyed that really, really good story.

Speaker1: Well, I can give you an entertainment one if you like.

Speaker4: Sure.

Speaker1: It’s [01:15:00] been a bit shorter. So it’s it’s it’s not one of my three life lessons, but it is. It is one that I give to my my younger colleagues, predominantly dental nurses, of whom I’m now old enough. I could be their mother. Most of them are. So that’s old. Um, yeah. So I was 25. I was working up in Scotland in a hotel with my then boyfriend who looked like Robbie Williams. At least he thought he did. And he, he was, he was a singer and he was a comedian. And [01:15:30] we both applied for Disney Cruise Lines. We both applied to audition to go and work for Disney on one of their new cruise ships. And I got invited to audition and he didn’t. And he told me that if I went for that audition, we were over. Oh, so I never went oh. So again. Jealousy, jealousy, insecurity was.

Speaker2: It was what kind of relationship was it? Was it was your controlling sort of person. Yes he.

Speaker4: Was.

Speaker1: Although I was young and a bit daft, but I was [01:16:00] like, how old was I? I was about 24 at that point. 24, 25. He was quite a few years older than me, I think. I think I knew, but I didn’t know and I didn’t know how to get out of it. More importantly.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker1: So yeah, we came back. Plus I was up in Scotland on a tiny island off the coast of Glasgow, dependent on him for the job. So when the job finished and we came back south, we came back to Eastbourne, came back home. That was it. It was done. It was finished. And so now my advice to people is if someone really loves you, they would never stop you.

Speaker4: Definitely. [01:16:30]

Speaker1: Because I could have been a Disney princess.

Speaker2: Yeah. I mean, look, look, it sounds.

Speaker4: Like I’ll never. No, no, it.

Speaker2: Sounds like a bit of bit of fun, but that was your career. That was, you know, it’s like, you know, being asked to go and stand on the board of Bchd or something. It’s like it’s that’s that’s what the equivalent was in that career. Yeah.

Speaker1: So that’s why I don’t let anyone tell me anything. I just do it.

Speaker2: Seems like you’re making up for that, uh, child.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: I’ve [01:17:00] noticed that.

Speaker4: Yeah. Oh, well, let’s.

Speaker2: Let’s get to our final questions.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker2: Fancy dinner party.

Speaker1: Okay, that’s really easy because this conversation comes up quite a lot. So my three guests would be Simon Reeve because I love his travel programmes and I think he tells a really good story.

Speaker2: And I’ve noticed you travel a lot too.

Speaker4: I do, and this is [01:17:30] the.

Speaker2: What’s the best place you’ve been?

Speaker4: Oh my gosh, so many.

Speaker1: But I suppose the most recent is obviously the most memorable, which was when I went down to, um, Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe over the summer.

Speaker2: It’s beautiful.

Speaker4: Just to see.

Speaker1: All the animals. It was just incredible. And then my our final day, me and my sister, we were in Victoria Falls. We were in the angels pool. So you’re literally in a little natural pool with the falls just crashing down around you. And I was just looking [01:18:00] up. It’s freezing cold, but there was a rainbow. But it wasn’t just like a rainbow. It was like a three quarter circle of a rainbow. And I just sat there and I thought, this is literally the most beautiful thing I think I’m ever going to see in my life.

Speaker4: Amazing.

Speaker1: So probably there.

Speaker4: What does your sister do?

Speaker2: Is she an entertainer or hygienist?

Speaker1: Um, she’s a school teacher. She’s a secondary. She’s a secondary English teacher, but she’s a fantastic singer. She really is. She’s a cracking singer. So, yeah, she could have been an entertainer if she wanted to be.

Speaker2: So [01:18:30] was there in your in your house when you were kids? Was there like music lessons and singing and dancing and. Sounds like it, right.

Speaker4: Yeah. Well, Mum.

Speaker1: And Dad used to be award winning ballroom dancers and Latin dancers, so I grew up with them doing competitions. Exams. I used to go ballroom dancing with them when I was little. And yeah, me and my sister grew up doing all manner of dancing.

Speaker4: Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, amazing.

Speaker2: Who’s your second guess?

Speaker1: My second guessed would be Professor Brian Cox.

Speaker4: I like.

Speaker2: Him, [01:19:00] I.

Speaker4: Like him too.

Speaker1: Yeah, he just makes really clever stuff. Really easy to understand, doesn’t he?

Speaker4: Yeah, which I like. Yeah.

Speaker2: You know, you could, you could say, you know, he’s just fascinating there. Yeah. You could, you could. There’s lots of people who are good at that sort of thing. But I just love his story so much. Man. He’s a good.

Speaker4: Storyteller.

Speaker2: No, no, but his own story, like a bit like yours, right. All right. Pop pop star and professor.

Speaker4: Yeah. Split difference. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant.

Speaker2: And who’s your third?

Speaker1: Um, [01:19:30] my final person would be Lady Gaga, because, I mean, I love her. I’ve seen her in concert about 3 or 4 times now. I think she’s terrifically talented. And I think she’d be hilarious. She’d be on the shots and she’d be on the dance floor, and she’d be on the karaoke with me straight away. She wouldn’t say, oh, no, she’d be up there as well.

Speaker2: Do you know her real name?

Speaker1: Oh, I did, Stephanie, isn’t it?

Speaker2: I’m looking it up right now. Yeah.

Speaker4: Stephanie. Yeah. [01:20:00] Amazing. Yeah, that’s.

Speaker2: An interesting party.

Speaker4: Oh it’s great.

Speaker2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that, I like that. What about the final question, which is perhaps more profound question which is let me you’re on your deathbed, um, surrounded by your loved ones. What’s three pieces of advice that you’d leave to them and for the world?

Speaker1: So yeah, they’re interconnected, interrelated. [01:20:30] And I think, you know, I’ve sort of touched on them, hinted on them already. But my definitive Miranda’s mottos for life, if you like, are basically don’t let being scared of something be a reason enough not to do it. Like being scared is not a reason not to do something that kept me going through my undergrad at Leeds. It kept me going through my masters at Kent. So basically it’s when that little voice, that self-doubt, just being scared isn’t good enough reason. If you’ve got a better reason, [01:21:00] then fine, but that’s not a good enough reason to stop. And then connected to that, we’ve got basically believe in yourself, because if you don’t, nobody else will. As we said, I’m someone as we know, as struggled with that self validation and relied on it a lot externally. But then when you realise that it’s not coming externally and you can’t rely on it, always be in there. You have to have that belief in yourself and trust, because there’s too many people ready to tear [01:21:30] you down and challenge you, that you have to just have that and then tied in with those two. I would say it’s just say yes and figure out the detail later, which has been most of.

Speaker4: My life choices. Say yes to stuff.

Speaker1: Just say I mean, that’s why I’m chatting to you now. Payman.

Speaker4: I didn’t know what.

Speaker1: What was going to happen, but I thought, you know what? I’ve never done it before. Just say yes and figure it out later.

Speaker2: You’re a seasoned pro at this. On [01:22:00] on this subject, then you know, you’re saying, uh, about, you know, the external thing by its very nature that your meteoric rise to the top of this organisation, it must come with imposter syndrome and imposter syndrome must hark you back to the previous. You know, it must to the previous thing that Miranda did. The the younger you, it must suffer with it. Do you suffer with it? [01:22:30]

Speaker1: Oh, absolutely. 100%. A lot of the time I think, you know, I’m sat in a room with all these people who know far more than me, far better than me, who are far more experienced than me. But then I think, well, the thing is, is I was invited. So they clearly think that I’ve got something I can bring, so I’ll just go with it. I’ll just trust that room.

Speaker2: That room me and you were in. That was a bunch of brains in that room. My goodness me.

Speaker4: It was [01:23:00] Dental update thing.

Speaker1: Exactly that. And I could tell. I could tell you another little story if you wanted. I’ve got lots of I mean, I know this is a podcast, but I show you, I show you on the camera and you can describe it if I can’t contort myself. But on my wrist, I’ve got tattoos.

Speaker4: Of, like, a.

Speaker2: Balloon.

Speaker4: Dog.

Speaker1: It’s a little balloon dog.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So basically that comes from it’s a Bunta hunt, which is a it’s a German word. So a year ago I was in Cambodia, [01:23:30] which if I didn’t live in the UK, I’d be living in Cambodia. Basically.

Speaker4: I’ve never.

Speaker2: Been. What’s amazing about it?

Speaker1: Just just everything.

Speaker2: Is it like Thailand?

Speaker1: I’ve never been to Thailand.

Speaker2: Oh, no, I didn’t go to Thailand before. You make.

Speaker4: Such a.

Speaker2: Sweeping statement.

Speaker4: I think.

Speaker1: I think it’s less developed than Thailand, which is possibly why I like it. Yeah, but, um, I was out I was out there last year and working with a German dental nurse, and we spent quite a lot of time together. [01:24:00] And she’s like five foot ten, slender, brunette. Her name’s Annie. Hi, Annie. And we used to get stared at quite a lot as you would. And one day she said, oh, we are like bounty hunt and bounty hunt is is a big colourful dog basically. And in Germany they use that tum because it means somebody who stands out either because of how they dress, how they look, how they act can be negative but can be positive. And that became like our running joke. So then I was back out in Cambodia [01:24:30] again this year in it was around January, February time again. So I’ve been in post about two months, and I’d been invited by the GDC to be their keynote speaker at their Dental Leadership Network, the second one that they were doing in March. I’ve been asked to open up like a 20 minute slot. Yeah, in front of all the the big names across dentistry.

Speaker1: Yeah, the good and the great of dentistry for the, for the GDC. And I was excited but nervous. But like I say, say yes and figure [01:25:00] it out later. So of course I was in Cambodia and I’m figuring it out. And I was chatting to Annie’s boss, who is the husband of my friend whose charity that I go out and support. And Ulf was asking if we were still in touch and do we, you know, have much contact. And I said, oh, yeah, I’ve been sending any pictures. And I told her that I’m being ubuntu hunt by myself. And he laughed. And you know, what do you mean by Buntu Hunt? So I. Hold him. And he said, ah, yes, yes, this is correct. And so on. Then he was [01:25:30] saying, and how is my life? What was I doing? So I told him about the GDC thing and how I was a little bit scared. And then he said, well, harness the bunta hunt. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, become the bunta hunt. He said, if people are going to look at you, give them something to look at.

Speaker4: Nice. He said.

Speaker1: Take that energy and become the Bunta hunt. And also someone he’s he’s so dry. And so, you know, his sense of humour is so sarcastic. But I think on that time he actually [01:26:00] was being quite genuine. And so I made that decision that day that at some point I would get a little tattoo of a little Bunta hunt somewhere. So usually it’s under my watch. So you probably didn’t notice it that night that we met at that event. So it’s quite discreet. And when I’m at work, it’s underneath my gloves. But I know that it’s there. Yeah.

Speaker2: You felt strongly enough about it to actually put a tattoo on to remind yourself, huh?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So I mean, I bought some earrings, but they’re really uncomfortable to sleep in, so you have to take them out every night. Um, [01:26:30] but they’re quite good for going to an event, so I have little balloon dog earrings that sometimes I wear, and I’ve got a keyring on my regular handbag. So if I need to fiddle with something to reassure myself that it’s it’s there. So yeah, I put it on my wrist. So if I’m ever wobbling and questioning if I should be in a room, I just look at my wrist and think, yeah, you’re the one to hunt.

Speaker4: And be the punter.

Speaker2: It’s a great story. [01:27:00] It’s a great.

Speaker4: Story.

Speaker2: It’s been lovely to have you. I’ve really enjoyed it very much, I really have. It’s been a lovely insight into you and into the wonderful world of BSD and the hygiene and therapy in general, and the corridors of power. Thank you. Um, that you.

Speaker4: Seem to be okay.

Speaker2: Um, I’ve really enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for for agreeing to do this, because when you told me you’d never done it and you don’t know what it’s about. No.

Speaker4: No. [01:27:30] Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker2: I thought you were going to not do it. So it’s really. It’s really nice that you did this. Thank you so much. Oh, well.

Speaker1: Thank you for inviting me. But, you know, now, you know, my motto is say yes and figure it out later.

Speaker4: And we did. Yeah.

Speaker2: You did. When you become really, truly successful, it’ll be your motto be say no. That’s that’s what I keep hearing from people. So, so nice to have you. Thank you so much for doing this, friend. Thank you. Take care.

Speaker3: This [01:28:00] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:28:30]

Speaker2: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.