Podcasting’s friendliest rivalry gets an airing this week as Payman chats with Jaz Gulati.
Fans will know Jaz as the host of the Protrusive podcast – but this chat reveals there’s much more to unpack.
Jaz talks about the joys of hosting Protrusive, life in Singapore, inspirational teachers and much more.
“’ll never forget that moment I got my first gold star at age six, and from there, I was addicted to achievement, and that’s been a big driver for me. I just want to constantly do things.” – Jaz Gulati
In This Episode
02.25 – Podcasting
04.38 – Enthusiasm and ambition
10.02 – Specialising
16.14 – Inspiration
19.55 – Singapore
26.58 – Education
33.37 – Protrusion Podcast
43.15 – In practice
51.03 – Global brand
54.35 – Black box thinking
57.49 – Being a tough guy
01.03.15 – Best. Episode. Ever
01.06.02 – Imposter syndrome
01.09.44 – Last days and legacy
About Jaz Gulati
Dr Jaz Gulati graduated with honours and distinction from the School of Clinical Dentistry in Sheffield in 2013.
He is the winner of the Tom Pitt-Ford prize for excellence in orthodontics and the NSK prize for oral medicine. He is also a runner up of the Harley Street Young Endodontist award.
Jaz has travelled extensively, undertaking training in Singapore, Australia, Scandinavia and Dubai.
He is the host of the Protrusive clinical dentistry podcast.
Jaz Gulati: And I’ll never forget that moment I got my first gold star at age six, and from there, I was addicted to achievement, and that’s been a big driver for me, I just want to constantly do things. I’m one of these guys who has this massive to do list, I’m like, tick, tick, tick, tick. If I’ve done something that wasn’t on the to-do list, I’ll put it on the to-do list just to tick it off, just to get that feeling, yes, I’ve done something.
Intro Voice: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.
Payman: Jaz Gulati, real honour to have you on the podcast today, buddy. Jaz has been to, qualified, what, seven years? And for a dentist of your pedigree, Jaz, you really have made a massive difference to what I would call sort of the educational landscape, and I’m really interested in what you’ve achieved with this Protrusive Dental podcast, and particularly the Protrusive Dental community that’s come from it. And for me, as a dentist who’s not wet-fingered anymore, it’s now become my link to the wet-fingered world, and I don’t miss an episode. I’m definitely one of the Protruserati. Lovely to have you on the show, bud.
Jaz Gulati: Oh, thank you so much, Pay. It’s great to be on your fantastic podcast, shame Prav’s not here today, but I listen to you guys all the time, the journeys that you guys have. But it’s all the things you said between my sort of podcasts and educational stuff I’m doing, very kind of you, really appreciate it. And you touched on the Protrusive Dental community or the Protruserati, and that’s something a lot of these things that you’ll discover in this episode today came by accident, grew organically, and I just love it, I just love what it’s become, and it’s so exciting to be part of this movement. So yeah, it’s great. It’s moving at a very fast pace, but it’s great to be part of, and I’m very excited for what’s to come with this.
Payman: I mean, traditionally on this podcast we start with where were you born and all that, but now that we’re on it, let’s talk about this. Did you go out to make your podcast, I remember when I was thinking of starting a podcast, and I’ve got Prav on the other side who’s very technical, knows a lot about a lot, or if he doesn’t, he goes-
Jaz Gulati: Marketing genius.
Payman: Marketing genius, he goes and finds out. And he contacted one of the world’s top podcast coach, and we had a session with him. And with me, I know that if I say to Prav, “What’s going to happen, what’s the technical side?” He’s going to fix it. But for you, when you were thinking of doing your podcast, take me through the thought process, first of all, of that, and then the steps you took-
Jaz Gulati: It’s a unique and strange one. Yeah, absolutely, it’s a strange one. Like when I look at origin stories of other podcasts, they had this goal and they had this overarching sort of theme that they want to explore, take everyone for a journey. For me, it was just one simple thing, and it was me and my wife, we went to Singapore. And we had a great time there, we were both working for the same corporate called Q&M as dentists there, and we had a fantastic time. I wanted to stay there forever, but she wanted to come back, she’s a very homely girl and she was missing family life.
Jaz Gulati: So we came back to the UK, and then word got around, on the forums, on Facebook and stuff, any time someone talked about Singapore, they’d tag me in it. And I go to a stage where I was commuting from London to Oxford every day, so an hour each way, and usually that evening commute home was always occupied by me on the phone to a dentist telling them the same thing about, oh, well what’s it like in Singapore, how much money do you earn, what’s the situation like, what’s the Singapore Dental Council like compared to the GDC? The usual questions that you get.
Jaz Gulati: I kind of got sick of it. I thought, “Okay, I wish there was a way to record this in audio format and just get it out everyone so I don’t” … It was a fun thing to do the first eight people I spoke to, but then it got very repetitive. It’s like, okay, maybe there’s something I can blog about this, but blogging, writing is fun and stuff, but I’m very much more into audio and now video. So that was the actual muse, if you like, to start the podcast. Episode number one was expat dentists in Singapore, I had no real plan about how it was going to continue. And the first few was Singapore, then USA, then eventually Australia, and I just ran with it. And what it’s become now is just [crosstalk]-
Payman: Was it Protrusive at that point as well?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, from the beginning. And to fair, I was toying with the names. I wanted to be a forward-thinking podcast, and I already have an interest occlusion, so forward-thinking, protrusive, to thrust forward. So that’s how that came, marrying up my interest in occlusion, but also something that represents forward-thinking, so that’s why I came up with protrusive.
Payman: What about this sort of infectious enthusiasm that you’ve got for dentistry? I mean, were you a good speaker before, did people come to you for advice? I mean, you seem to take it so naturally. You talk to people and the enthusiasm you have. Where did this start? I mean, were you one of these people … I was talking to Basil, he was saying that he wasn’t top of his class in dental school. What was your story?
Jaz Gulati: Well, I was president of SUDSS, Sheffield University Dental Student Society, so I was very active in that. I was very used to speaking, and something that I was very much involved in. I don’t do the whole, I was listening to Basil’s episode, and I stay away from politics. So the only two things I don’t talk about in my podcast is religion and politics, I stay away from that stuff, everything else goes, and the [inaudible]. But I guess so.
Jaz Gulati: I was also, without blowing my own horn, I was top of the class. I was the first person … Before, I was very embarrassed, in a way, to say this. I was like, “Ah, it’s very egotistical.” But I’ve since had some sort of mind training to change thew way I perceive it, which is basically, I was the first person in the university to get 100% in a finals clinical exam, and now I’m proud to say that, and it was something I really worked towards. So I was always aiming to be competitive and top of the class, and aiming to be one with the community, and a voice, a leader of some sort.
Payman: Where did you qualify? In Sheffield?
Jaz Gulati: Sheffield, 2013
Payman: Sheffield. So were you top of your class in school as well?
Jaz Gulati: Like before …
Jaz Gulati: Before Sheffield, like sixth form and stuff?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, yeah, that was always … And I was thinking about the origin, because I knew I was going to come on the podcast, like where does it all originate from? And I can pinpoint it to when I was six years old. So if you go back far enough, I’m sure we’ll come to it. I’m a refugee, I was born in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. I came here when I was six years old, didn’t know a word of English, and my earliest memory of achievement was sat in year two at the time, and there was this massive board at the front of the class with everyone’s name on it and who got 100% in their spelling test. So everyone had all these stars. So every time you get 100% on the spelling test, you get a gold star.
Jaz Gulati: So obviously everyone had all these stars, and I was the only one without a star. And it went on week by week by week, I never had a star. And I just made it my mission that one evening to practise writing these three and four letter words, cat, home, ball, that kind of stuff. Practise, practise, practise all night. And I’ll never forget that moment I got my first gold star at age six, and from there, it was like addicted. I was addicted to achievement, and that’s been a big driver for me, I just want to constantly do things, I’m one of these guys who has this massive to do list, I’m like, tick, tick, tick, tick. If I’ve done something that wasn’t on the to-do list, I’ll put it on the to-do list just to tick it off, just to get that feeling, yes, I’ve done something.
Payman: So take me back, do you remember when you arrived in the UK? Do you remember that feeling?
Jaz Gulati: I do, I do. It was a strange time, I didn’t really know what was going on. I remember the way to get here was, travelling and whatnot. I was like, “Mom and dad, what’s happening, where are we going?” They’re like, “Don’t worry, we’re going to a better place.” And there we are, I was in England, didn’t know a word of English. And my mom spoke a bit of English, and my dad still … He’s okay now, he’s a shopkeeper, so he can speak English, but he doesn’t read or write.
Jaz Gulati: So I’ve always come from that background of … Which was important for me, because it ended up meaning that age nine, 10, 11, I was doing all the letter reading at home, and it made me very independent. So that was a very steep learning curve, just learning a new culture, a new language at that point.
Payman: And then what point do you remember thinking, “I’m going to be a dentist?” What was the driver for that? I mean, did you have any dentists in the family, or …
Jaz Gulati: Oh, no, no. I was the first person to go to uni, I was the first person to … I mean, with all my cousins and family members, we’re not very educationally-minded. And they won’t mind me saying this, I’m the most studious by far. There’s no one else who even reads in my family, let alone anything. So for me, it was my own experiences. I used to have terrible teeth, really goofy, I was very embarrassed. My upper left one was like a nine millimetre overjut, almost 90 degrees, and I went from being this very shy 11 year old to wanting, I was desperate for braces, because bullying, and [inaudible] wasn’t nice, I would always hide when I’m speaking.
Jaz Gulati: And then when I got braces, it completely changed me as a person. So that’s important in my journey, not only wanting to do dentistry, but also coming out of my shell and being someone who’s now outspoken, in a way.
Payman: Yeah, it’s funny, you hear quite a lot of dentists, and I’ve asked quite a lot of dentists this question, right, quite a lot of dentists actually relate the reason they became a dentist to an experience they had at the dentist. For me it was my brother, he had amelogenesis imperfecta, and he went through a lot of dental work, and one day came back totally beautiful. All my life, when my brother was this kid with teeth falling apart, and then it felt like pure magic as a kid, seeing him, and what it did to him, having that, like you said, bullying and all that, having the confidence to … Like he suddenly had a wonderful smile, and he went through two, three years of work at the Eastman, full mouth rehab for a 14 year old, whatever he was. And it’s still there by today, he’s-
Jaz Gulati: Wow.
Payman: … 50 years old, and it’s still all there. I mean, he gets the odd chip-
Jaz Gulati: That same rehab without any revisions, or …
Payman: The odd chip, the odd chip here and there, yeah. I mean, they put [inaudible] up the back, so probably a good idea. But it’s interesting that that’s what sometimes gets people into dentistry.
Payman: So then, you said you were excelling in dental school. Were you one of these who was making plans early on as to the kind of dentist you were going to be, or did you always think you were going to be in general practise? Why didn’t you specialise, if you were top of your class? Was that on your mind, or not?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, it was definitely on mind. Initially, first year, if you asked me, I would’ve said, “I want to be an orthodontist,” because it was an orthodontist that inspired me in a way, had straight teeth. But then as I moved along, I had this affinity and enjoyment of endodontics, actually, so there was a tutor called Steven Godfrey, fantastic endodontist, who sort of, who’s just a lovely person and a great tutor, and sort of, sometimes you have that meeting with someone, they inspire you in a way, they take you under their wing a little bit. So I started getting into a bit of endo.
Jaz Gulati: Then I actually met someone on the train, and I was reading a book, it was like, Understanding Partial Dentures, right, I was like a third year student. And the guy on the train was a dentist. I still don’t know his name, so I want to thank the guy who’s listening, if you remember me, from reading this Understanding Partial Denture book. And he said to me, “Hey, you’re reading this book, are you a dental student?” I’m like, “Yeah,” we started talking, and I started telling him, “Yeah, endodontist sounds good, I like root canals and stuff.”
Jaz Gulati: And he said to me, “Are you sure you want to specialise in something that’s about this tall and about this thin?” And I considered that, and I was like, “Crap, he’s right.” It’s like, do I really want to specialise in such a such a tiny environment? And then eventually one thing led to another, and I sort of set my sights on restorative, [inaudible] training, specialty training, because I thought, “Okay, if I can be a restorative specialist, I can potentially be a specialist in endo, prostho, and perio. I can be the don, I can be the king.”
Jaz Gulati: And then eventually, my experience in hospital and stuff said that, okay, if I have to endure through this many years of hospital training with these egos, with this sort of slow pace and … So eventually I went private, and I’ve never looked back, and I’m enjoying my ortho restorative dentistry now, I’ve got a diploma in orthodontics. I’m very much someone who’s happy to travel around thew world, to go to the best courses to learn from the best people, and not having to worry about the letters after my name. Although I have some of those, they don’t define you as a clinician, is what I strongly believe.
Payman: Definitely not. And what about endo, do you do endo? Having said all that?
Jaz Gulati: I still do. But the thing is, the more you learn endo, and it’s one of the reasons why I felt compelled to leave the NHS, because the more you learn something, especially in endo, I mean, when you learn to use EDTA 17%, when you learn to use certain files, you can’t then cut corners, it’s very difficult to. So the more you learn, the more it becomes impossible to do it to the standard you want to in a limited time environment, and then the more you appreciate the complexities, so now I’m in a situation where a lot of the molars I’ll refer. Simple ones I’ll do, I’ll do five to five, I’ll do, but I think about 80% of the root canals now, I refer. Because they’re complex cracks, I feel as though the patient deserves to see someone who will do it the best, under a microscope, and not my five or 7.5 times magnification. Even though that’s good, I feel as though the patient deserves better. So I do some endo still, but not as much as I thought I would do.
Payman: And then this move into occlusion, and sort of … You’re definitely the person I like to listen the most to on this subject, yeah. You’re a bit young for someone who gets into that, usually it takes people a bit longer, like you end up with a few failures, maybe, and sometimes that wakes people up. Or I guess another way is mentor or something. I mean, what made you go that direction so early?
Jaz Gulati: I think definitely mentorship. So one of my principals, I work Fridays at the Richmond Dentist, so [Hap Gill], I actually [inaudible]-
Payman: Oh, is he your principal?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, he’s my principal on Friday, so he’s [inaudible]-trained. And I met him on Twitter, right? So we used to tweet each other, I was a second or third-year student, and he was this amazing dentist, like celebrity dentist. And it was like, “Wow, we’re tweeting each other,” it was so cool. And I found out he’s from Hounslow, I’m from Hounslow, in West London, we’re the Hounslow Massive. So we had these similarities, and one day I went to shadow him as a student, and then a few years later I went to see him again as a dentist, and we were toying with the idea that one day he might take me under his wing, and he did. So he was a massive influence, because he sort of sat me down in the pub next door, he was [inaudible] letters, and he was teaching me these things about how the lower incisors must meet the upper incisor in a certain way to prevent chipping and stuff, and I was like, “Wow, we don’t get taught this at dental school.”
Jaz Gulati: So he was a massive inspiration, so was Michael Melkers, so was just consuming content by Frank [Spearings] online and stuff, so it’s not the occlusion that excites me, it’s what occlusion can give you, which is how can I do bigger cases? And it’s the knowledge of how it all works together that you can plan the blueprint to how to treat bigger cases. So it’s more the excitement for the bigger cases.
Jaz Gulati: And I guess, you’re totally right, I’m so young, so I haven’t done many full mouth rehabilitations. I know when they come through, I know how to plan one, I know how to sort of send it to which specialist to do to get the best out of them and work as a team and to plan overall, but I still see myself as someone who’s got another 10 years to get more failures, to get more rehabs under my belt. I mean, I’m getting more and more teaching, I don’t teach rehabs. I teach the basics of occlusion, I’m very good at splints and stuff, so I teach that, but I know my limits. I know that I’ve so much more still to learn, but I’ve got a good grasp of in which patients occlusion is important, and which patients it just doesn’t matter and we’re overplaying it.
Payman: Yeah, well, I mean, those decisions, and these are the questions you ask in your podcast. Sometimes they could be even seen as a very basic question, but it’s a question that needs asking. So I was listening to Nick Sethi’s one, and it’s a very simple question. When do you go indirect, when do you go direct? And you’d imagine these things are all set out, and I know you’ve got your traditional teaching, but we’re at that sort of inflexion point, aren’t we, between traditional dentistry, adhesive, traditional minimally invasive, and the rules are changing, and that’s why it’s so interesting. You can ask the question that’s sort of so simple but so important. Same thing with your podcast with Finn, the partial denture … Some simple things that someone who’s at the top of their game to answer. What do you think, when you’ve been to lectures, what was one, or an event, or a conference, one that enthused you the most?
Payman: Like if I was a young dentist now, who would you tell me, “Look, make sure you go and see this guy?” For me, back in my day, Mike Wise, Galip Gurel totally changed my understanding of how to prep within enamel and all that. What about you? Who were the people who-
Jaz Gulati: I can easily pinpoint it to 2014, probably January, February. I was in my DF1 year, it was Koray Feran. Koray’s been on the podcast, and I was in my DF1 at the time, I was in this NHS environment. I just was never exposed to … Yes, as a student, and nowadays, being a student, with the dentistry, the presence it has on Instagram, with Facebook and these groups and stuff, as a student, you can easily get exposed to the highest level of dentistry.
Jaz Gulati: Back then, 2014, it wasn’t as prevalent, it was still, you had to seek it out, and I was seeking it out. But for me, that lecture of Koray’s two hours, the title of the lecture was excellence in restorative dentistry, and I just hadn’t been exposed to that level. So when I saw that, I was like, “Wow, how can I be more like Koray? How can I do bigger cases, how can I be really good at restorative dentistry?” So that’s an easy one for me, that really sparked my interest. And then as the years went by, I started to seek courses, mentors to try and learn about that. But now, it’s so easy and accessible and affordable, with online and the presence that it has everywhere. So it’s never been a better time to be a dentist than how. A dentist who wants to learn, this is a great time.
Payman: So then you did this originally, an NHS job, you said, yeah?
Jaz Gulati: Well, DF1 was NHS, and then I was doing DCT post in oral surgery and restorative at [inaudible]. Their oral surgery was okay, was all right. The restorative was not so good. Because when you’re a restorative DCT at Guy’s, you’re this tiny tadpole in this massive ocean and there’s all these sharks, these guys paying 20 grand a year to do their postgrad, they’re getting all the cases, they’re getting all the amelogenesis imperfectas, they’re getting all the fun stuff. You’re getting the fifth complete denture set on someone who doesn’t attempt to attend, or you get the sort of not so exciting cases.
Jaz Gulati: So that was a bit sad, but I made my time valuable there, I valued my time. I wrote the reservoir and bridge paper, two part paper in Dental Update. So I really worked hard to do that, because I thought while I had the spare time, let me make an impact, let me do something. So that was really valuable, and a journey of eventually getting into education, doing that. I then did restorative DCT, so you get the theme, right? I was gearing my CV up for restorative [inaudible] training. So I was at Sheffield, DCT and restorative, which was a phenomenal post. That was like microscope, [inaudible], that was everything I wanted, and I really loved that.
Jaz Gulati: And then after that, it was like, what next? Because I don’t think my portfolio and my CV and my timing was right me to be able to land a private job, and I was already doing a Saturday NHS job, and I’d wake up and I’d say to my wife, “I feel really anxious about going in today.” Because those kind of conversations pay like, you can have a root canal with hand files, or you can have a root canal with rotary, and there’s a fee difference. Or you can have a metal filling or a tooth colour filling. I absolutely hated those conversations, I was a slow dentist, because if I knew how to do something properly, I just felt like a liar and a cheat if I was cutting corners. So I knew I couldn’t do that.
Jaz Gulati: So yes, it was the adventure of Singapore, yes it was the being able to travel, yes it was the experiencing a new society and a culture, but it’s also not settling for the NHS at the time. And I mean no offence to anyone listening to this, because I think those NHS dentists do a fantastic service, and we need lots of good NHS dentists who work fast, who work ethically, and that’s amazing. But I couldn’t do it. So that was [crosstalk]-
Payman: I mean, those are the conversations they’re having every day, right? I mean, that’s part of the thing that grates you, wears you down in the NHS, having to pretend that it’s all top notch treatment and then not being able to deliver it. It’s a sad story. So why Singapore? Did you do some research and decide that’s the place to go, or what? What was the reason?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, I mean, like most stories, you usually just know one person that did it, and then you sort of contact them. And with social media, like I say, it’s never been a better time, you can connect with anyone in the world. So it was [Sirindha Poonian] who was there who was two years above me at dental school. So I just realised that, “Hey, she went to Hong Kong then, now she’s in Singapore,” I just sent her a Facebook message.
Jaz Gulati: And sort of like how people were calling me and messaging me when I came back from Singapore to England, it was also hitting [inaudible] as well, who’s now a periodontist, he helped me a lot, he told me about which practise to apply for and stuff. So there are some UK grades out there who were so helpful, and me and my wife decided, if we don’t do it now, when will we do it? How can we break away, how can we have that … We never had gap years, me and my wife. So we thought, “Why not?” There’s never going to be a better time than now. We didn’t have a mortgage, no children. It was just a perfect time.
Payman: So I know you’ve had to do this many times before, but walk us through the process. What was it? Okay, you decided Singapore, then?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah. Decided Singapore, and then you have to find someone who’s going to employ you. So at the time, it was Q&M, was a corporate. They’re still there now, but nowadays they’re so much more difficult to, as a foreign dentist, to get your licence there. So you get like a conditional registration. And the bad point is that even if you’re a specialist in the UK, as far as I know, I might be wrong now, because not current knowledge, but you still have to be conditionally registered with the Singapore Dental Council. What that means is essentially you’d need like a VT trainer. So you need a dentist there who is going to be your supervisor, and that was when it becomes messy, because at any one time, your supervisor had to be there. But the problem is, a lot of these clinics in Singapore, they’re a one surgery clinic. So how does that work?
Jaz Gulati: So that becomes difficult, there are inspections, there were issues like that. I’m not going to get into the messy details of that, but it’s not an easy place, now, as it was back then. But basically, you find someone to hire you, so it would be a corporate. We flew to Singapore, had a nice lunch with them, they had many UK dentists before who had worked for them, so they knew how it worked. They sort of almost equivalent sponsor you in a way, they sort of said, “Yes, we’ll take this dentist on, we’ll fill in their paperwork.” You have your blood tests, and eventually you just send some paperwork for the Singapore Dental Council and it gets approved, that takes a few months.
Jaz Gulati: In that few months, we went to Malaysia and all these countries, travelling while all the paperwork was getting processed, and then eventually it was quite easy to get started.
Payman: Singapore has, I mean, it’s famous for its high standards of pretty much everything, but particularly healthcare, the standards are very, very high. Were patient expectations high there? I mean, what’s the culture of a patient there? Were they highly educated in dentistry and expected everything from you? What was the story?
Jaz Gulati: It’s fascinating, Pay, honestly, it’s so fascinating. Because I went there thinking exactly what you thought, but I worked in two locations. One was in, it’s called [inaudible]. It was like a suburb area in Singapore. The other one was called [Somerset]. This is right by Orchard Road. Have you been to Singapore?
Jaz Gulati: So it’s like by Oxford Street, basically, of Singapore, just off there. So I worked in these two locations, and they were really different. So in one, I was seeing all these expats, and the domestic helpers of the expats, which was always a weird thing, because it was the expat who was funding the treatment, but we sort of had to negotiate, okay, what’s a fair thing here? Which was just the craziest thing ever.
Jaz Gulati: But then in this other suburban place, I was just seeing what we call uncles and aunties. So anyone who was old enough, we just call them uncle and auntie. And the standard of work there was, it was like fee per item NHS, I was shocked. You see all these big RMGIC restorations, they charge $70 for like a filling there. So I came to a practise, I was like, “We need to get rubber dam, we need to get composites, we need to actually do everything the way I want to do it,” and the culture in Singapore is such that patients come in to dentists to get a clean, so I was doing all the [inaudible] polishes. And it was weird, you were almost doing an exam secretly, like going around doing the charting secretly, because what they wanted from you was like a hairdresser, they wanted to come to you to get their teeth cleaned. They don’t want to hear about a diagnosis and whatnot.
Jaz Gulati: So it was a big challenge for me to actually get the practise geared up for routine bitewings, like most of our patients had never had a bitewing before. So it was really strange, Pay, in that one practise, to answer to you, and that was the bog standard average practise in Singapore. Yes, you got the high end ones, and I went to shadow them and stuff, because I was hungry, I wanted to learn, I want to see these top dog clinicians, and I did, and it was amazing. But the average dentistry was fee per item NHS, I’d say.
Payman: Wow. That really does surprise me. I mean, I’ve talked to a couple of dentists from there, and they showed … Well, they’re trying to be enlightened users and distributors out there, and have shown me their clinics and it just sort of blew me away, something out of this world. Maybe they were the top ones. [crosstalk] that surprised me-
Jaz Gulati: I think so, I think there are loads of really independent practises, but a lot of the corporate ones, they’re there just to give a service like the NHS, is just, people come in, they’ve got missing teeth, they want dentures, very disease-orientated, and that was fine. I was there to upskill, but also to travel as well.
Payman: Of course. As far as language and that sort of thing, did you have to learn anything? [crosstalk]-
Jaz Gulati: No, I mean, everybody speaks English. I mean, your uncle and aunties, they either speak Bahasa Malay or they speak Mandarin, but my nurses were so brilliant, they were fantastic ladies, they would speak everything. English, Bahasa, Mandarin. I started learning Chinese while I was there a little bit, on this phone, like a HelloChinese app, and I can say root canal in Chinese. [Chinese]. So, the thing about that, so it was pretty cool. But no, language wasn’t as big of an issue as you might think.
Payman: What about Singapore as a town to live in?
Jaz Gulati: Amazing. Wow, it’s Asia-lite. It’s like, it’s so good. It was just clean, and the food culture, these hawker centres. I can get like, a plate of chicken rice for like $2.80, and it was bliss, right? It was food everywhere, Singapore’s crazy about food. Everywhere you look, it was food, food, food, food, food, and that was great. Alcohol was really expensive, the culture there, because they want to tax everything, to drive is almost impossible. To have a house is like, whoa, if you have a house there? You’re richer than rich. So most people live in apartments, so we had this condo, had a rooftop swimming pool. It was just the life, it was beautiful. What can I say? It was just a lovely country, great weather, great people, just a great buzz about Singapore, really miss it.
Payman: Did you do a little stint in Australia while you were there as well? Or did you travel to Australia?
Jaz Gulati: We went travelling for about three or four weeks, just [inaudible] the end, we know we were coming back to England now, so we thought, “Right, better go Australia.” As you do, I went to a Tif Qureshi course while I was in Sydney, and I went to a Lincoln Harris course as well while I was there. So I thought, “Okay, let me make the most of it while I’m there.”
Payman: How many hours of education do you think you’ve done, then? You’ve done a lot.
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, I mean, too much, too much. So now, I mean, the CPD, [inaudible], they don’t excite me at all. I don’t think they excite anyone. It’s funny, Pay, you’re a provider of education. Some people get really anal about that, and they’re really, the certificate’s really important, “Can you send it to me ASAP,” kind of thing, whereas I’m like, I’ve got CPD coming out of my ears. I don’t need the certificate, it’s fine. I’ll waive the certificate, it’s okay. So it’s not about the certificate.
Payman: Yeah, you’re right about that, though, you’re right. Some people really do panic about that item. So now we’ve got, look, I’ve got you down definitely as an educator, yeah? I mean I really mean that. Was that a goal? As a high-flying student, and then as someone who’s going on a load of courses and all that, and you were talking about the restorative sort of specialising and restorative … Were you thinking, “I want to be a teacher?”
Jaz Gulati: Yes, to the extent that as soon as I qualified, 2013, I entered the PG cert for dental education. So I knew that, “Okay, I want to do this. Let me set myself up, what do I need to do?” So although I didn’t have enough knowledge to teach, I was always thinking, “How can I become a better educator?” So once I’ve amassed enough knowledge, once I’ve had enough failures, once I’ve really given it my all and I have something valuable to share, then I’ll be ready. So I was gearing myself up to it for many years, I was analysing lecturers, which lecturers really engaged me, excited me, the kind of traits they had. Which ones, although they had all the accolades and letters next to their name, which ones just bored me? I never wanted to be someone who was going to be boring. I always want engaging, like, I always paid real attention to Raj Rattan’s lectures, or stories. Such an amazing storyteller, so that becomes a very important part of me trying to make it through as an educator, so that was important.
Jaz Gulati: And funnily enough, I can go back to first year of dental school, where my buddy Eric, who was a dental student from Korea, and he failed his first year exams. And he said to me, “Jaz, if you can help me pass my first year exams, I’ll take you to Korea, all expenses paid,” right? So I stayed back with him two weeks, I tutored him, we got him to pass his first BDS exams, and that was me like, “Okay, I’m trying to teach someone here,” that was a important part of it, I think. And then two years later he took me to Korea and Tokyo and we had a blast, so there’s a little fun story for you there as well.
Payman: I mean Jaz, you’ve obviously got a talent here. There’s no doubt, in my head, no doubts about it, yeah, that you can-
Jaz Gulati: I appreciate it.
Payman: Being a teacher really is the right move for you. And it’s interesting that it’s come out in this Protrusive Dental podcast way, and who knows where else it’s going to go? I’m sure you’re going to spin off events and all that from it. You have, haven’t you? Or, COVID got in the way of that. Do you recognise this thing that I’m thinking of young dentists who want to be teachers? In my day, that wasn’t a thing, yeah? I don’t know, maybe it’s the ones I’m talking to. But almost every single young dentist I’m talking to is banging on about becoming a teacher. Why? I mean-
Jaz Gulati: [crosstalk]-
Payman: … what’s happened? I mean, why teacher? Why not rich? Why not multiple … You know what I mean? Teacher seems like kind of a left field thing. As I say, you definitely do have a talent there. For sure, it’s the right thing for you. But I hear it a lot, man. Do you hear that?
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, I see it a lot. And I think you’re right, back then it wasn’t the case. But thinking, even as far back to someone like Richard Field, remember when he was like one or two years’ qualified, and he was teaching composites? And to be fair, at that stage, he was doing way better composites than most dentists, right? Like, amazing, and I thought he had every right. But I remember him getting bashed on Facebook about it like, “Who is he? He hasn’t got any experience,” whatnot. And after … He definitely has a place, and he’s done amazing things, and I really respect him for that. But nowadays you see it more and more because people are able to use and leverage the platform of social media to show that, “Hey, I have something to share.”
Jaz Gulati: But I think to answer your question, though, why are young dentists attracted to education? Is, I think, we have such great people like Tif Qureshi and people like him, who, just such inspirational people that we want to be like them, so we try and model them. So I think it’s because some of the most influential person we know in dentistry are educators. I mean, look at the, not that I’ve ever voted or taken part in it, but the top 50 stuff, so many of those are educators. So we look up to these people as educators, and we see that yes, they’ve got their practise and clinical career, but they’re also educating. So I think young dentists naturally just want to model themselves, so that’s my best answer. What do you think?
Payman: I don’t know, dude. By the way, the blowback that you’re talking about with Richard, we got a lot of that with Dipesh at the beginning, because Dipesh was very young. I think he was 26 when he first started lectures with him. And we got lots and lots of that same blowback. And at the time I felt it was really unfair, because he really is a talent above ones I’ve ever seen, he really could be one of the greats in minimally invasive-
Jaz Gulati: Oh, absolutely.
Payman: But, for me, this thing about, “I want to be a teacher,” I hear where you’re coming from as far as a bit of modelling on other teachers, but I think you’ve got to examine the reasons why you want to be a teacher. Like there’s an element of want to be famous in it, and then you’ve got to go, okay, why do you want to be famous? There’s an element of … I don’t know, man, I mean, I can’t put my finger right on it. But it’s like, PG cert, that thing, it’s like, everyone wants to do that now. It’s an amazing thing.
Jaz Gulati: Yeah. It’s interesting, initially a lot of people were doing it because it was something you needed to be a DF1 trainer, so all these people were jumping onboard and whatnot. But you’re right, a lot of people are doing it with a view to that. So they are mapping out their careers in five, 10 years’ time, and they’re thinking, sort of like I did, and my-
Payman: I was on a Instagram profile yesterday, and it said, “Second year dental student and mentor.” But I get it, I get it. I’m not the type to say, “Hey, screw you, why are you a mentor?” But in our day, you had to get out of dental school, do a couple of degrees, teach at university before anyone paid any attention to you. And that was wrong too, that was wrong too, because look at you. You’re giving out this valuable, super accessible, amazing information out, and you haven’t had to go and get it from a piece of paper from a university in order to do that. So I’m not harking back to those days at all, but it does fascinate me that being a teacher’s become a really … It’s almost like being an entrepreneur has become cool, isn’t it? That sort of thing.
Payman: All right, let’s get to the main subject, dude. Protrusive, yeah? I don’t mind admitting that I’m a little bit jealous of what you-
Jaz Gulati: Nothing to be jealous about, man, come on.
Payman: … what you’ve achieved, dude. It’s not to do with downloads, it’s nothing to do with that. It’s to do with, this love, yeah? I feel like, yeah, people will listen to our podcasts because they’re interested in other people’s lives, and it’s kind of a cheat, it’s an easy win, yeah? But with you, you’ve managed to harness kind of the dentist that’s really, I’d call it the geeky tendency in people’s brains, and not just harness it, expand it. Like I’m no geek, dude, I’m really not. I am not a geek. I mean, on that one little subject of bleaching trays, maybe, but I listen to yours, I just want to know more, I want to learn more. And so you say it’s happened by mistake, for instance, yeah, but where do you think it’s going to go now? I mean, okay, what are we going to do? Just wait until other things happen by mistake, or what have you got in the pipeline?
Jaz Gulati: So definitely the biggest thing I have now is making time for the things I enjoy. So I love the podcasting, and very early on, I knew that the editing. So as you know, or as your team might know, one hour of podcasting takes five hours of editing to actually produce and get ready, especially when I moved to video as well, because I saw the power in video. And before, when I was like, the first 20 episodes were audio-only, and people were saying, “Jaz, why don’t you make videos and stuff?”
Jaz Gulati: At the time, it was like those normal insecurities everyone has, like, “I don’t know if I can present myself on video,” and I actually ended up doing this Toastmasters training as well, I was like, “Okay, if I’m going to be on video, I need to get some more training to public speaking,” and stuff. Even though I had a bit of history of speaking on stage and that kind of stuff, but you still doubt yourself. And going forward, I’ve got some people working on the team now, so I’ve got other people editing and stuff, so it frees me up to still be a father, be a husband, be a dentist. I’ve still got all the normal dentistry things to do. So to find time and systemize things so I can still get these episodes out, which I love doing. I sometimes open my phone, I got a message today of someone saying that they had this crappy 2020 and they were not in a good place, but now, from discovering the podcast, they’re now feeling positivity and enthusiasm towards dentistry. And that’s the most common sort of theme I get, and that just [crosstalk]-
Payman: The one you read out, the guy who’s doing the MSC now?
Jaz Gulati: No, this is a new one. This is a new one, I just literally got it before, 20 minutes ago. I checked, I was like, “Wow.” And these are the kind of messages I’m getting more and more frequently about reigniting people’s passion. So I think the future is to keep going for as long as I’m having fun, for as long as I can still balance all my duties, and I intend to. Just keep going and see what comes of it. If I can help more people with the education site, because I’m enjoying that as well, then great. But the main thing is I’m still learning as well.
Jaz Gulati: Because every time I bring on a guest, like tonight, I’m doing a live with someone called Robin Bethel from the USA, and I don’t know that much about elastics with aligners, and now I know which aligners to use, how to use them. So I’m learning as well, and I’m just selflessly sharing that with everyone else. Because I think one thing I am good at is figuring out the pains that we have as dentists and really making them public, and be like, “You know what, it’s okay not to know, but why don’t we just learn together so we can all grow together?”
Payman: Yeah. And what about courses? Tell me about this, what was it called? Occlusion … [crosstalk]-
Jaz Gulati: We had Occlusion 2020, so-
Payman: Occlusion 2020.
Jaz Gulati: … I had Michael Melkers, it was like a joint partnership where I had him. I was going to, well, fly him over to teach at Heathrow and put on this really cool event and stuff, but obviously COVID happened. So we did something crazy, made it a two day Zoom virtual event and stuff. So it was a very stressful period at the time as well, because at one stage I was looking at losing thousands here, basically, from going to a position where I was going to put on this wonderful event, it was going to be so … all this positivity and excitement towards it, to then suddenly making a big financial loss, which I hadn’t really planned for, but then suddenly it came through virtually, it was amazing.
Jaz Gulati: Now, my big focus now is I did the reservoir and bridge master class, which is like … And in a way, Pay, that was me shoving myself as an educator. So I saw the reservoir and bridge master class as a way for me to be able to show people that, hey, you know what? I think I can teach, let’s test the waters. And wow, the feedback I’ve had from that has been phenomenal. Like people, dentists messaging me saying, “You need to charge more for this.” I’ve had dentists send me their cases like, “Wow, I couldn’t do this before, and now you taught me.”
Jaz Gulati: And then one dentist said, “This is the best education I’ve done during lockdown.” So if you think about all the different events and webinars they’re having during lockdown, that kind of feedback, it really gave me the confidence to now being able to position to put together this splint course. So splint course is my baby, this is my flagship thing coming soon, very excited. It’s been four years of content creation coming up to this. Now, back when I was making videos of my first splints, and even in like 201, I didn’t know that it’d have a use one day. That was mostly my failures I was recording.
Jaz Gulati: But now I can put it together, because an area that everyone finds confusing is bruxism, occlusion, splints and stuff. And I feel as though I’ve got a formula to help dentists just simplify it, and that’s what I’m really excited for.
Payman: You know, bud, I don’t think you should worry about sort of monetizing this thing. I mean, I don’t think it should be your focus, by the way. Just like dentistry, you should do the best for your patient, and the money will come, that way of thinking. But at the same time, the amount of free resource that you’re putting out, the value for money of being connected to Jaz Gulati is probably extraordinary, because there’s all that resource that’s coming for free, free, free, free, free, free, free, and as the [inaudible] about the left hook, whatever it was [crosstalk]-
Jaz Gulati: Jab right, I was just going to say that, Pay, I was just going to say that.
Payman: From that perspective, if you come to charge for it, it’s absolutely correct. And by the way, by the way, sometimes you’ve got a purpose-led … I mean, the way I see your Protrusive is a purpose-led thing. You’ve got a situation where everything’s right, and still it’s a nightmare to make money. Look at Drew and what he’s been through. I think of Drew as, well, there’s such a halo around Drew’s head, but he’s such a Godlike figure, such a saint that it should be easy for him to monetize, scale, and grow the [inaudible]. But he’s been through so many ups and downs. And so I don’t think you should feel any guilt about it at all, and I think you should value yourself and charge correctly.
Jaz Gulati: I appreciate that. Initially, I think during the reservoir and bridge course, I had that. Which is why, if I look back, I charged, initially, $22 for it, can you believe it? $22, okay, can you believe it, right? And then now, the price is now $90, which was like the discount thing. But I could easily charge 400, $500 for it, and people still would have bought it and stuff. And that’s okay, because that was part of me … Like you said, I was worried about it. I was like, “Oh my God, I don’t want to be seen as I’m doing this thing to monetize,” but now I’ve gotten to a stage, and with the amount of hours I’ve spent, the amount of sleep I’ve sacrificed to be able to make this next course, I’m totally happy to charge what it’s worth, because I know the amount of value it’ll bring to the dentists, and you’re completely right, I’ve got-
Payman: [crosstalk] value, that’s the point, the value, yeah? If I do this course, I’m going to get value, I’m going to make money myself from it, [crosstalk]-
Jaz Gulati: Absolutely.
Payman: … with the information.
Jaz Gulati: Definitely in that mindset now.
Payman: Yeah. I mean, look, the podcast, it should just keep on going and getting bigger and better, I really think. And when I came to sponsor your podcast, there was nothing, other than, “I completely trust this guy.” And so, you were using our products, and [inaudible] well, there it is. I trust you, you can talk about it, and people trust you too. I think you should keep that going, and I think you should spin off as many things as possible from it. I hope people get inspired by your story, and other forms of education like this, come out. Because we have sort of the university of Facebook, university of Instagram, but the university of podcasts, it’s much deeper learning. What you do, you go in and focus on one small bit of dentistry, and ask those questions of these experts. I really hope that happens.
Payman: And it’s interesting, in podcasting, I don’t feel like there’s a competitive environment. I do feel that in products and courses, but not in … In podcasting, your podcast finds a certain audience, in a way, you know what I mean? Like yours is my favourite podcast, that’s it. If it was this competitive situation, I wouldn’t be feeling that, wouldn’t be thinking that. So I’m really, really happy to see that.
Jaz Gulati: Well, I really appreciate all those things said, and I really appreciate that you guys sponsored my podcast. And for those who don’t know, it was the best conversation ever. It was like, “I trust you, just do what you want.” I was like, “But how do you want me to, you’re my first sponsor, how do I actually pitch it? What do you want me to say, is there a script?” You’re like, “Nah, I trust you.” And I just ran with it. And I love making those videos, some little tips that Dipesh had taught me. I then passed them on, and I credited Dipesh, like, “Look, you guys need to check out the [inaudible] course, because it helped me a lot,” and that was my way of sort of fulfilling that sponsorship, but at the same time, in my usual way, making it a Protrusive Dental Pearl, or making it educational and making it fun and funny, I hope I made it funny with the Maybelline, my wife’s makeup I was using, eyeliner, that’s what it was. But yeah, that’s all been really fun too, so really appreciate your support with the podcast, it’s really helped massively.
Payman: Tell me about your practising situation, how many days are you where, and how many practises are you in?
Jaz Gulati: So two practises now, I’m in Reading most of the week, and Fridays with Hap Gill at Richmond. And actually, the working hours I have now are very conducive to my life. So the most common question I get on social media is, “Jaz, how do you have time to be a father, to be a dentist, to do podcasting stuff?” That’s the most common question of all the questions I get, clinical, nonclinical, that’s the most common question I get.
Jaz Gulati: And one is I’ve got such a supportive family in my wife, and since we came back from Singapore, we’re moving out soon, by the way, but we still live with my parents. So came back from Singapore, living with my parents, and my sister all live … so there’s loads of us in this house, I’ve got loads of support with [Ishaan], my son, and that’s great. So in six weeks’ time, we’re moving out. So that’s going to be a bit more different, it’s going to bring its own unique challenges.
Jaz Gulati: But when I accepted this new position in Reading, this follow this 2:00 until 8:00, 8:00 until 2:00 sort of a shift pattern, so one week I’m working mornings, the other weeks I’m working the afternoon, and that’s why I’m able to be sat here on a Thursday afternoon to have this podcast episode with you, because it landed on that week where I could. So it’s given me a lot of freedom, and it’s not because of COVID, it’s been doing it for 30 odd years. So patients are used to it, the staff are used to it, and I believe it’s why this practise in a little village in Reading has got such a great staff retention. Like, there’s a leaderboard of how many years the nurses and receptionists have been there, 28 years, 25 years, 24 years, 23 years. When you come to work there, you don’t leave. Because no matter how bad of a day you have, it’s just half a day, right? It’s like, 8:00 until 2:00, you’re done. I just feel like for work-life balance, it’s amazing. So that’s actually been really important as well.
Payman: What’s the name of the practise? Who’s the principal?
Jaz Gulati: Principal, it’s actually my buddy from dental school, we were in the same years, John [Cowie] and Chris Reed, it’s Triangle Dental. So these are two young guys, the other associates are young as well. So actually a very young team, and our sort of support network of the nurses and receptionists, they’ve all been here longer than us, so they’re almost like mother figures. And my nurse is almost like a mother figure to me in a way, I hope she won’t mind me saying that. So Zoe, shout out to you, thanks so much. So it’s amazing, the culture of this practise is brilliant.
Jaz Gulati: Now, when I was working in Oxford, it got taken over by a corporate, and the values, the culture just went. And one of my mantras is that successful people are quick to make decisions and slow to change them. So I was very quick to say, “Okay, I’m jumping ship, and that’s it.” So I picked up the phone, and randomly I was speaking to my friend John, I was like, “Hey, I’m looking for a job.” And he’s like, “Oh, no way, I’m hiring.” So it’s funny, when you ask something of the universe, universe gives it to you.
Payman: Yeah, very true, man. Very true. So tell me some of the lessons you’ve learned, you’ve been exposed to quite a lot of different setups now, the NHS, the hospital setup, Singapore, now these two practises, Hap Gill, one of the greats, one of the good guys when it comes to comprehensive dentistry. Tell me some of the lessons you’ve learned from your perspective, from the practise management, patient management, some of the lessons you’ve learned from the best of these guys.
Jaz Gulati: I think, go out there, and shadow, and gain exposure. Had I not seen that Koray Feran lecture, I wouldn’t have been inspired. Had I not met Hap [inaudible] next to the practise in Richmond that one night over a beer. It’s so important to reach out.
Jaz Gulati: So if I wasn’t on Twitter, just reaching out to these guys for no reason, or going to these events, I think you have to make time for that as part of your professional development. So what happens outside of work with these people, the conversations that you have at the funny hours … These are just so important. So things like tubules and stuff, the congresses, the fun that we have.
Jaz Gulati: Drew has, by the way, been such a huge influence to me, I feel as though sometimes that I’m just an extension of him in a way, and continuing on his good work that he set the momentum for, getting dentists passionate again about dentistry. So connect with like-minded people, and that all begins with starting a conversation. So I think seek mentors, and sometimes you just can’t wait for these things to happen. I think my biggest lesson is be proactive. Send those emails, send those messages, and all the people who are just amazing, like I mentioned Tif Qureshi’s name earlier. I remember my first ortho case, 2017. I was messaging him on a Sunday, and he was replying to me. I was like, “What the” … Tif Qureshi’s replying to me on a Sunday afternoon, because these guys are so, so giving like that. I find the people who are most successful that we all know and love in our profession, they are always going to be there for you to give you the time.
Jaz Gulati: So don’t be afraid to think, “Ah, this guy’s really busy, I’m not going to reach out.” Reach out and beautiful things will happen. So I think get out your shell and reach out to more people.
Payman: I don’t know where I heard it, but it’s definitely true, the idea that if you’re going to a course, if you message the course organiser or the lecturer before you get there, and just say, “Hey, I’m coming to the course,” simple as that, yeah? Then you’re going to get more attention in that course, aren’t you? It’s just the way it is, it’s human nature.
Payman: But when I asked you the question, I was talking about, you must’ve seen the way that these practises are run. I mean, I’m sure Hap’s practise is run very differently to your Reading practise, yeah?
Jaz Gulati: Big time.
Payman: But what is it about one that you’ve learned? What are the things you’ve learned? Like for instance, my next question after this was going to be, “Do you want to set up your own practise?” And what’s that going to look like?
Jaz Gulati: I see. Well, I think there’s a lot to be learned. Hap’s way of doing things is very systematised, and everything’s got a flowchart to follow in a way. The staff are highly trained, but the vibe and the trust amongst everyone, it’s a small practise, is amazing. In a bigger practise like the one in Reading, it’s a bit more haphazard sometimes, you’re still working out all the systems and stuff.
Jaz Gulati: I guess at the end of the day, the culture is right. So I feel as though anything can happen in terms of systems, or to automations practise, but I feel as though what these two practises have nailed is the culture, and that all begins with the staff, and brewing a culture of trust with each other. So I think that’s the best I can come up with then, and to answer your next question about would I want my own practise?
Jaz Gulati: If I had my own practise, I’m someone who would give it my everything. Like when I was president of SUDSS, Sheffield University Dental Students Society, it was my baby, I gave it my everything. I feel as though if I had a practise, I’d give it my everything. I believe in myself that I’d make it amazing. You have to have that belief when you do something like that. But if I did that, I know that I wouldn’t have time for the other things, education, the podcasting, that kind of stuff. So I have actually made a conscious decision not to have my own baby in that way, because I do feel I can touch more people’s lives, I can get my message across more through all the other things I’m doing in education than I can by serving a population in a town through a practise, and that’s just the way I see the world.
Payman: Never say never, though, right? Or have you decided?
Jaz Gulati: Never say never, if the Reading practise gets taken over by a corporate, so John and Chris, if you’re listening to this, if that happens, I’ll be the first one out.
Payman: No, but are you really saying that you’re planning never to open a practise, or you’re just saying not yet?
Jaz Gulati: Definitely not yet, and I don’t have any vision in the next five years either. It’s just, I know what I’m like. It’s like a limitation, I’m a perfectionist in a kind of way as well, and I know that I’d have to really throw myself in the deep end for that, and I would, and I’d be totally up for it. But I just don’t see that as the right move for me. Because at the moment, the associate life allows me other luxuries, and time to do other things that I’m not having to think about staffing and CQC and stuff, so I can do all these wonderful, beautiful things I’m enjoying so much. So not now, but never say never.
Payman: I don’t know if you heard our interview with Jason Smithson, but he said something like that. Something like, “It’s possible, but not possible to do well,” a practise and an intellectual, lecture career, and a family life. He was saying two out of three, or one of the … I think there was a fourth one, yourself, taking care of yourself. And he was saying you can’t have them all, you’ve got to decide which one of those is going to take a backseat.
Jaz Gulati: I’m with Jason on this one, for sure.
Payman: Yeah. I think it would definitely be the wrong time now, because I feel like your protrusive thing, you may not even see it from the inside, yeah, but form the outside, your protrusive thing’s in an inflexion point, it’s about to really take off.
Jaz Gulati: It’s like a tipping point. I can sense it, I can sense it at the moment. It’s not just about the metrics and downloads, it’s about the vibe. It’s about the connections, it’s about the message, it’s about the love I’m feeling through the Protruserati, the Facebook group itself has gone more international, and people are just connecting from all over the world and it’s just a beautiful thing to be part of. So I totally agree, I think now would be a terrible time to sort of step away from Protrusive. I want to give it more energy, give it more time. It’s like a baby.
Payman: And so what is the international nature of it? I mean, I notice when you’re talking, a lot of times you sort of translate into American what you’re saying. Do you have a lot of US listeners, or members, or-
Jaz Gulati: So number one is UK, number two is US. It used to be Australia, now it’s US. So US is, month by month the biggest growth is US, and I feel as though that’s … It’s an interesting market. I mean, US has always been like almost like isolationist, right? They always, they have their own sports, baseball and stuff, they always do their own thing, they have their own conference and stuff. So I think to make it in USA, it’s going to be a big deal. So it’s something, I think there’s so many great dentists that we can learn form US as well, so to get them on the podcast, to help, to sort of grow an international community is fine, but ultimately, that’s not what it’s about. It’s about just getting that everyone learning, everyone engaging, everyone just feeling reignited in passion.
Jaz Gulati: And my connections are mostly in UK, that’s why most of the guests are in the UK, that’s why most of the listeners are in the UK, but it’s listened to in over 110 countries now, I’m sure Dental Leaders has got hundreds of countries as well. It’s one of those things that with the medium of podcast, it’s so easy just for people to connect with you, and that’s the beauty of it. So yeah, it’s growing in USA, Australia, and all the other countries, even Germany and stuff is probably number four, I think, which is just exciting. When I open up my podcasting platform and I see all the different countries, it just, wow, it really gets me going.
Payman: If I were you, though, Jaz, our goals are slightly different with why we’re doing it, why you’re doing it, and all of that. If I were you, I would focus on US. Because you know Michael Melkers quite well and all that, and because I think that [inaudible] career in the US is, you’ve got to remember, California is the ninth biggest country in the world, in economy terms, yeah? And so it’s not like here. If you can get yourself … And if I were you, I would do some paid ads and focus them on the US, on the major cities.
Payman: Because when the product’s good, it makes sense to put money behind it and put resource behind it and effort, which is what you’re doing. You’re putting sweat equity behind it, and I know you’ve hired these two guys. But if I were, strategically talking now, now we get away from the passion a little bit, strategically talking, that’s what I would do, man. Because you can track it really quite well, quite easily, and you don’t have to spend loads of money-
Jaz Gulati: I appreciate that. This is great coaching I’m getting, and I agree with you. I think that’s the next step. Right now all my attention, because I’m literally weeks away form the launch of the course, but-
Payman: The splint.
Jaz Gulati: … I think the next step … the splint course. The next step will be to then focus on getting my podcast, which I’m so proud of and what it’s become, to more audiences so that they can feel that connection and it can grow, and I completely agree with you that at some point, paid ads may be the next step forward.
Payman: So let me ask you some of the questions that we ask all our guests. You probably know about a question which is from Black Box Thinking, about errors, clinical errors. What have been some of your clinical errors, and what did you learn from them?
Jaz Gulati: They’re many. The one that always springs to mind in this case is two years out of dental school, just doing a root canal, lower premolar. Now, this patient happened to be an auntie of someone who was a couple years below me in dental school, and I was doing this root canal, and struggling to find this canal. And suddenly, I thought this tooth was necrotic, but I see a bit of bleeding. I put the file inside, take an X-ray, and here’s the premolar, and the file’s just coming out the complete other way, it’s the most shocking radiograph you’ll ever see. Literally, my heart was pounding, I was like, “What the hell have I just done?” I felt so bad.
Jaz Gulati: But whenever a mistake happens like that, my nature is to be very warm and friendly, and so the patient was very understanding about it. I was profusely apologetic about this, and I wanted to just make it right. So we took the tooth out, because it was just buggered, and I did what I knew, was my expertise at the time was reservoir and bridge. I did that, she was happy, I dodged a crazy situation there. I’ve never spoken to that dentist two years below me, because I’m just embarrassed to speak to her. So it’s one of those things, isn’t it?
Jaz Gulati: So that’s one of them, a perforation, and I think that the whole point of Black Box Thinking is what can we learn from that? So I would say to any dentist is don’t be afraid to make an access into a tooth without rubber dam initially, just so you can get your orientation, and always follow the long axis, and even could use a perio probe around to see exactly the angulation, the roots going in, that’s always going to be very helpful.
Payman: Yeah, I made that mistake in dental school. Well, yours was necrotic, but you try and convince yourself it’s pulp, and at one point you realise that ain’t pulp.
Jaz Gulati: You struck oil.
Payman: Yeah. And the you say about long axis, it’s very true, because you cam zoom in so much, with dentistry you can over-focus, can’t you? You over-focus on that crown, and sometimes lose the long axis focus, obviously with a rubber dam as well, I don’t think we were using rubber dams back then. But yeah, I think I’ve done that before.
Jaz Gulati: Very much in fashion, that rubber dam. Rubber dam fam, #rubberdamology, all that sort of stuff.
Payman: Thank God, man. Thank God. I mean, I tell you what, I’m amazed that everyone’s doing like cementing in with rubber dam. I never thought that would catch on. Because back in my day, that was like a crazy situation. But now it’s almost standard, in terms of bonding protocol.
Jaz Gulati: I think that’s a necessity, because you’re seeing these flat preps, essentially tabletop, the margin of error is so fine. You can’t have any sort of saliva contamination. So I think that’s a big thing about it. But I’m so proud of seeing our dental community using more and more dam. I always say, five years ago, I wish I bought shares in rubber dam, because I’m sure that’s climbing, climbing, climbing all the time, [inaudible]. And still climbing. So I think it’s great that we’re using it, it’s definitely, it results in a stress-free dentist.
Jaz Gulati: I think I use rubber dam selfishly, if it’s a simple occlusal, I’ll do it, because I’m less stressed. I just find it reduces my stress.
Payman: Are you tough on your nurse? Are you a tough guy to work for? Because I’ve got a feeling, you’re a lovely guy, lovely person, I get that, you’re very warm, but very high standards. So does that … Which side of you kind of wins?
Jaz Gulati: Sure. I think with nurses, I always believe in making a nurse a cup of tea and looking after them, and gifts and stuff, I’m very much in that kind of nature. When it comes to clinical, one thing I hate, and I’ve had this experience before with nurses, is when I’m not happy with my matrix seal, like the matrix [inaudible]’s there, and the seal’s not 100%? I always say, “Okay I’m going to change this wedge for a different one,” and then she or he will get me a different one,” and you’re like, “Nope, now I choose this matrix,” right? And my nurse Zoe now, she’s used to it, and she knows, she gets why I’m doing it.
Payman: She knows why you’re doing it.
Jaz Gulati: She knows I just want to get a perfect result. But then there are the nurses who just want to have lunch, who just want to give the first matrix [inaudible] to you and they want it to work, and I’ll never get along with that nurse, because that nurse is not in there for the patient.
Jaz Gulati: So I think, as long as you’re on the same team, and the same team is we’re there for the patient, then I think I will always get along with that nurse. So yes, some nurses will struggle to work with me because I will change my mind. And here’s the thing. Nurses, they want consistency and they want protocol. But when you’re trying to do everything to the best of your ability, and every tooth has its own challenges, its own curves. There’s no recipe book for how to treat that patient in that scenario in that quadrant. So my nurse has learnt very quickly with me that actually, although there’s some general things I will like to do, I’ll always like to put a little bit of [inaudible] first before I put the restorative composite, but sometimes I’ll change it up, and there’s a reason for it.
Jaz Gulati: And I love it when my nurses ask me why, I love that. Because I think it’s a great opportunity, it shows me that the nurse cares and she wants to learn. So I always, at the start of a relationship with a nurse, I’ll always say, “I want you to ask me questions. I don’t care if it’s in front of the patient,” because I think it actually makes you look cool in front of the patient as well, because you’re educating your nurse, your patient’s listening, they’re getting value. Like, “Wow, so this is what he’s doing,” it’s not just squirting some filling in, there’s some science behind it. So I think everyone wins.
Payman: It’s one of the hardest jobs in the world, I think, dental nurse, man. Because even the very engaged dental nurse can’t see what you see, yeah? They can’t see there’s no seal there. I mean, if you imagine it, try and change the angle and no mirror, you’re looking like that, and now that’s not right. And then not having control at all over what’s going to happen next, that’s hard itself.
Jaz Gulati: That is so tough, that is so tough. But one way to overcome that, what I do now, when I’ve got a rubbish situation with the matrix, I take a photo, internal camera, just pull it out, and I’ve got in the habit of showing my nurse, “Okay, this is the problem we have, let’s fix it.” So then if you start doing that, if you’ve got a nurse who just doesn’t get it, when you start doing that, and you’re completely right, Pay, they don’t see those issues. But when you show it to them, and then suddenly you’re on the same team, they see why, and that’s made a huge difference in the last three, four years, when I started doing that.
Payman: I don’t know how … I mean, I stopped practising 10 years ago, so I don’t know how correct this is nowadays, but back in the day I used to try and let the nurse do a lot more, whatever it was, whatever the thing was. I was taught four handed in Cardiff, kind of by mistake. There was this bit of the clinic that was four handed, and my favourite nurse was … So I remember one day I came to my first job and I just put my hands up like this, and the nurses looked at me, and she said, “What are you doing?”
Jaz Gulati: Oh, that’s brilliant.
Payman: And I said, “Give me my instruments,” right, and she walked out of the practise, she quit her job that day. Not only because of me, I think, I think there was some history to-
Jaz Gulati: You were the scapegoat.
Payman: Yeah, yeah. But the question of the nurse choosing the shade, for instance, or helping with the shade taking, I had a nurse that was really good at that. The nurse calling the patient afterwards and saying, “Dr. Gulati wants to know how you’re doing,” and all that. Involving your nurse in the treatment really makes a lot, a lot of sense. Because as I say, there’s no control in their day to day. And at the moment when we go … and it’s time to get finished, then they’ve got to start working cleanup again, yeah? And they’re running the whole place, really, right? In the end, they’re the ones running the business. I don’t think they get enough career progression, I don’t think they get paid enough, and they get abused a lot. It’s a tough job, man.
Payman: And now in COVID, I think that’s why we’ve got this sort of movement away from dental nursing, because it’s always the final straw that’s broken the camel’s back. So shout out to all the nurses.
Jaz Gulati: Absolutely, shout out the nurses. Interestingly, I’m starting to see some virtual assistants for dentists pop up now who used to be nurses, because they got the know-how and stuff, so I’ve recently seen this, and that’s a great niche for them, but it’s a shame that we’re losing these clinical nurses because of that reason, because maybe they don’t feel valued enough. But I agree with everything you said, and I’d go to the extent to say that the number one thing that’s going to decide your fulfilment and enjoyment for dentistry is the relationship between you and your nurse and how you work together. I think that, so if I’ve got a nurse with bad vibes, I can’t be myself. I can’t do the dentistry and give my patient the best care. Everything else, all the courses you’ve been on, all the knowledge you gain, all your patient communication skills go out the window if you don’t have a great nurse. So that’s the number one thing in all of dentistry, I think.
Payman: I know this is a really unfair question, but which is your favourite episodes of your podcast?
Jaz Gulati: Oh, gosh, all right. So I would say … I can’t, I can’t, Pay. I can’t do it. I almost did it, I can’t do it.
Payman: No, no, come on, man.
Jaz Gulati: I’m not going to do it.
Payman: Not your favourite episode, your favourite episodes.
Jaz Gulati: Okay, sure, sure, fine.
Payman: [crosstalk] seven or 10, whatever you want.
Jaz Gulati: Fine. The type of episodes I like the most, because I gain the most from, and here’s the thing, the beauty of it is, others will find that completely different. But the ones where my guest is just on fire. Every sentence is like a learning point, and you want to make notes, you want to make notes and notes and notes. So Prof Tipton on fixed-movable bridges, everything he was saying was to the detail, we’re a very detail-oriented profession. Nick Sethi, oh my God, everything he was saying, I’ve got so many WhatsApp messages and Instagram stories of people just showing me their notes of how much they’re learning from that one episode. They’ve been to all these courses for it and stuff, but that one free episode with Nick Sethi who’s a phenomenal educator-
Payman: Excellent episode.
Jaz Gulati: I didn’t appreciate how good he was until I actually had him on. So any episode which is more clinically oriented, which just gives out so many gems, verti preps [inaudible], we talked about with Smithson as well. Anything like that is what I love the most, because I’m just [crosstalk]-
Payman: You don’t have to worry about it. Because look, I get messages about this podcast, there are some that I don’t rate, and I get messages saying, “That was an amazing episode.”
Jaz Gulati: Same, same. [crosstalk] that’s great, cool.
Payman: And then the opposite, the opposite as well, right? The ones that do rate-
Jaz Gulati: I’ve got some people who hate my occlusion episodes. Like I live for those, right? And I’ve got my core group of people who I’d say who are really into it, and that’s why they listen to podcast, because it’s got this bias towards occlusion. But I went to the Smithson course in Glasgow, and I met this one guy, and he was like, “Yeah, I listen to your episodes about, Richard Porter episode about how to win at life and be successful in dentistry and stuff, but all the occlusion stuff, gosh, that doesn’t interest me.”
Jaz Gulati: So everyone’s different, and it goes back to what you said earlier. I think when I was starting to put myself out there more, the thing I was worried about is that I’d get shot down. You stick your head above the parapet, you know that people are going to be there gunning you on social media, “Who the hell is he?” Kind of thing. But the beauty of podcasting is that they have to find you, they have to seek you out on this app, then they have to press play and sit there and listen. Unless they already have some sort of good connection or the desire to learn, then the people who are there to badmouth, the trolls, it’s too much of a step for them to get to. So it’s self-selecting, like you said. You make your own audience, and that’s why I think it’s been successful, because I think it tracks the right people and it retains my tribe.
Payman: I mean, I don’t think that you are an impostor, dude, but do you suffer with imposter syndrome?
Jaz Gulati: I spoke about it with the episode with Drew very early on.
Payman: What I mean is, you must have had thoughts of, “I’m going to do this podcast,” which is a very clinical podcast, right? I mean, do you worry about getting something wrong? Like-
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, I do worry about it. Just, it’s human nature, I do worry about getting something wrong, so I’ll always fact-check. But more and more, now that I’m getting a bit more comfortable with the podcasting, and sometimes I’m happy to say … There was an episode I had with Barry Glassman, he taught me that it’s okay to say, “I don’t know.” It’s such a liberating thing to say, “I don’t know.” So a lot of the time I don’t know something, I’m so much happier to say, “I don’t know,” from people like him. And I think you don’t have to have all the answers, and a lot of the time I’m learning as much as you guys are when you’re listening to a podcast. And that’s the beauty of it, you’re just part of my journey when I’m learning, so it’s okay.
Jaz Gulati: And with the whole imposter syndrome, I felt it a lot when I was going into private practise, like moving into fully private practise in the UK. Not in Singapore, because I felt like it was so much more relaxing to practise in Singapore, because there was no GDC. SDC, if you’re a dentist in Singapore and you’ve been sued? There’s no such thing. Whereas here, the fear is real. So when I was going into private practise, I was doubting my abilities and stuff, and I spoke to Drew about that, and he helped me a lot and got my confidence up.
Jaz Gulati: But I never had it initially with the podcast because I wasn’t really talking about the clinical things initially. It was more about how to move to Australia, how to do this, and when I started to talk more and more clinical, it was just an organic, it was just me being me and the geeky stuff coming out to be honest with you.
Payman: Yeah, because I don’t know, man. I’d worry about it if I was you. I’m not you. It’s a lot easier to say, “Hey, what’s your biggest clinical mistake?” Than to go deep into deep margin elevation, right? I mean, you could-
Jaz Gulati: But one episode I was worried about, Pay, actually, to mention it, is episode 40, which has been such a huge episode for me, is Michigan splints are overrated. Here I am cussing the appliance of the last millennium in terms of dentistry, the Eastman [inaudible], the [inaudible], the holy grail of the occlusal appliance, and I just went and I just cussed the life out of it.
Jaz Gulati: No, I did it in a respectful way, and I sort of hopefully took you through the pros and cons of it-
Payman: It was kind of tongue in cheek, in a way. I mean, it wasn’t-
Jaz Gulati: It was, it was. Yeah, it wasn’t that negative towards it, but I wanted people to realise that when it comes to appliances, there’s more to it than just a Michigan splint. I was nervous about that one, because I was thinking like, “I’m going to get messages from all these professors at Eastman and stuff like, ‘Who the hell are you? Take it down’ kind of stuff,” but no, people just enjoyed it and it’s been good.
Payman: No, I don’t think we need to worry in podcasting, dude. Like you said, the barriers too high, and it’s the reason you can swear on a podcast, right? If you don’t want to listen, don’t listen, yeah? End of story.
Jaz Gulati: It’s true. I’ve started bleeping more and swearing less and whatnot, because when you are explicit on Apple and Spotify stuff, your content doesn’t reach UAE. So I still haven’t had time to do it-
Payman: Oh, really?
Jaz Gulati: But I’ve got to go back in my episodes and remove the explicit label, because I had this one person message me saying, “You content is coming up as too explicit to listen to in my country, can you do something about this?” I’m like, “Oh, I’m so sorry, let me sort it out.” So yeah, careful.
Payman: The AI thing just hears the words, does it? Is that how it works?
Jaz Gulati: No, it’s something that within your settings that you set. Because one time I said a swear word, I was like, “Okay, I better be safe, legal, yes, I’m going to mark it as explicit,” but really I think it’s a bad move. Because a lot of countries, it won’t be allowed so I’m probably going to remove that.
Payman: Yes, I’ve seen it on ours, I’m going to have to remove that myself.
Jaz Gulati: You should.
Payman: So, man, I mean, Prav’s not with us, but I going to ask you his final questions. You are on your deathbed, you’ve got the five or 10 closest people to you, with you. What’s three pieces of advice you leave to them and to the world?
Jaz Gulati: I just think of my son the most when it comes to something like this, and I would say, you can do anything you put your mind to. You can become anything, do anything you put your mind to. That’s number one. But in the same world where you can do anything and become anything, be kind. That’s always been my style, I always hated working environments where the professor was just angry and mean to everyone. I just want everyone to be kind and courteous, I think there’s a certain charisma that is just beautiful about people who are just nice, that’s my favourite. Because there’s some different types of charisma, my favourite type is people who are just kind and polite, and there’s something that’s so much to be said for that.
Jaz Gulati: And I guess another thing I’d say is, like I said earlier, successful people are quick to make decisions and slow to change them. I think nowadays people meander and they think and they think and they think, and they finally come up with a decision, and then the next thing comes up, they completely change it. That’s completely the wrong way to go. Work hard, and make sure that you are the hardest-working person in any room. That’s my sort of, the things I live by.
Payman: Having your son, has it changed your relationship with your parents? For me, I thought that cliché, it’s a cliché, right, but I did feel that, I did feel that. Tell me about how you felt being a father?
Jaz Gulati: Oh, it’s just the greatest feeling on earth for me, there’s nothing better. I feel so blessed to be a father, it’s amazing. So yes, it did change my relationship with my parents, I sort of started to value them a little bit more, in a way. You always value your parents, but you kind of think, “Oh gosh, they changed my nappies for so many years.” Those sorts of little things, and now when my son has a fever or something and I’m like, “What’s going to happen?” Kind of thing, and I think, “Gosh, this is parenthood, it’s real.”
Jaz Gulati: But it’s interesting, I was never that close with my parents. It’s a funny thing to say, because I was always … Once I came here I became very independent, so I’d learn English, I started to speak English outside, at home I speak Punjabi, but then that was less and less and less. My parents never really knew what was happening in my life. Like I remember in A levels, I was in A2, right? So my final year of A levels, and my mom sat there, watching telly, and she goes to me, “Jaz, what do you do in school? What are you doing?” Well I was like, “Mum, I’m doing biology, chemistry, maths, and physics.” And bless her, she said, “Oh, so you’re not doing science, are you?” Because she doesn’t know all that stuff, right? So there was always a bit of disconnect in terms of my world and their world. Through having my son, I feel it’s made us a bit closer, and I’m trying to include them as part of my world, is what I’m trying to tell them, “Okay, I do this podcasting stuff, it’s pretty cool and stuff.” So I’m trying to be more expressive, because I feel as though I’d want my son to be like that as well.
Payman: But Jaz, I don’t know, your son’s so young right now, but I don’t know if you think of it this way, as far as what can you do for your kid that in the end, outside of shelter and health, confidence is what I’d say. And you’re a confident cat, man. Is there something that comes from your parents that made you this, or what?
Jaz Gulati: I think my parents are, within the Afghani Sikh community that we have, they are socialites, I guess, so maybe I got it from that, maybe. I couldn’t tell you. I was always into drama. GCSE drama, I used to love doing the school production, I used to live for that, I used to do all the drama kind of stuff. So I always find that people who did drama at university and stuff, they’re always very exuberant characters, so I sometimes think that maybe it’s because I liked drama and I wasn’t afraid to stand up on stage and do crossdressing at that time, a play in year eight, we did Midsummer Night’s Dream and I was the guy who had to dress up as a girl, funny things like that. So maybe that’s where it comes from, actually, my interest in drama.
Payman: That’s interesting. But for me, with kids, right, I’m always thinking, “Ah, got to make them confident, but I don’t want to make them arrogant.” And it’s like, almost is a thin line. But it’s not a thin line, yeah, because look at you. I’d give you 12 out of 10 for confidence and one out of 10 for arrogance. You really are, and that’s that sort of non-arrogant, non-judgmental way that you talk about things that brings so many people to you. And I’ve heard it 100 times now about you, infectious enthusiasm. It really is, man. It really is. And you’re a credit to the profession, buddy. You really are.
Jaz Gulati: Wow. I mean, thank you so much [crosstalk]-
Payman: You really are [crosstalk]-
Jaz Gulati: … one thing I say, one person who’s inspired me as well is Gary [Vee], we mentioned him earlier. And what you said was, it reminded me of one of his sayings, which are the two most important things which I would love to pass onto Ishaan, my son, and I think what we can teach young people is the two things that his mother instilled in him was self-esteem and self-awareness, right? So have the self-esteem to make sure that when people say bad things about you and people will gun you down, just have that confidence in yourself that you’re doing the right thing, but self-awareness so you know your limitations, and you know that, you stay in your lane, in a way, that you can actually make the biggest impact in things that you actually know about and you can influence, rather than doing things that, a bit ambitious in and away, if you know what I mean. So self-esteem and self-awareness, I always try and think about that as well.
Payman: Let’s move on with Prav’s further questions. How would you like to be remembered? [crosstalk]-
Jaz Gulati: As that really enthusiastic, nutty dentist who just wanted everyone to learn and place better onlays and do better dentistry, and make splints, and get rid of headaches, and just [crosstalk]-
Payman: Proper geeky answer there.
Jaz Gulati: Yeah, I know. It’s true. Just that enthusiastic dentist who just was always happy to help and share.
Payman: And then he’s got this final one that he’s doing now, and I know it all sounds very death-orientated, yeah. You’ve got a month to live, you’re healthy, you’re not in bed or anything. What would you do with the month?
Jaz Gulati: I would go to most magical place on Earth.
Payman: Where is that?
Jaz Gulati: Disney World. I’d go to Disney World, Florida-
Jaz Gulati: … me, and my wife, my son. We would just go to Disney World Florida, and we’d just have the best month ever. That’s what I’d do.
Payman: The last place I thought you were going to say was Disney World, dude.
Jaz Gulati: That place is amazing.
Payman: Well, it’s been lovely having you, and it feels like we just [inaudible], man. I’m sure we’ll have you again, and I just feel like this little train that you’ve started is going to keep going on and on and on, and I really wish you the best, man, because you really-
Jaz Gulati: All plans [crosstalk], honestly.
Payman: … you’re changing the landscape, buddy, and it’s good to see that. It’s good to see that, really is.
Jaz Gulati: Thank you so much for having me on. I love what you’re doing with Dental Leaders. Keep getting these stories, because so good to connect to everyone’s story, and thank you for having me to share my story, I really appreciate it. And all your support from Enlighten and MSM for the Protrusive, I really appreciate that.
Payman: Of course, of course buddy. Thanks a lot, man.
Jaz Gulati: Thank you.
Outro Voice: is is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.
Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing, and just a huge thank you, both from me and Pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say, and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.
Payman: if you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing, and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too, thank you so, so, so much for listening, thanks.
Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.