We still do live in a world that’s obsessed with image and obsessed with looks. And I think that can be really unhealthy for every single one of us. And I genuinely believe that I didn’t belong in this world, and I hated everybody in it. My friends, I was so jealous that everybody just had these beautiful faces and I had this face. And I hated that before I stopped looking in the mirror When I did look in the mirror. I would push my eyes up to try and make it look like everybody else. And I thought, muscle memory will kick in. And if eventually if I just hold it like that, something would change. Bit of a difficult question. If you could now push a.

Button and change your face, would you?

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode regarding mental health. Today I am so excited to bring on somebody that was an absolute honour and privilege to meet someone I consider to be a friend now, and I think that he’s really going to inspire you. We’ve got Jono. Jono was actually born with a condition called Treacher Collins syndrome, which affects the bones and joints of the face as well as the muscles. Is that correct? That’s correct. And he has a really amazing journey because he was actually abandoned by his parents, his biological parents from a young age, but has gone on to do some incredible things. And particularly his self-love journey has been so inspiring to me. So I’m not going to go too much into an introduction because I feel like Jono could do it even better. And thank you so much for being here today with us Jono.

Now thank you for inviting me and I’m excited. Excited is the wrong word. I’m looking forward to getting stuck into this subject because it is such. As it’s a subject that affects us all. Yeah, even we might not feel it right now. There is definitely a high chance it will affect you. So. Yeah.

Perfect. Thank you so much. I did ask Johno earlier how his journey was into London, and he reminded me that he actually spent time in London as a child because he was doing being treated in Great Ormond Street. Was that right? Yeah.

Great Ormond Street.

Yeah. So, John, let’s start from the very beginning. I think it’s important the audience know your story in your own words. You know the condition that you have, your experience with your biological parents and you know where it led you later on.

So whilst we’re talking about mental health and wellness, I am now very aware when it comes to explaining my situation or sharing my story, how important the language I use is to my health and well-being and my happiness. So when I talk about so I was born with Treacher Collins and there was no family history of Treacher Collins. I was a sporadic mutation. So when I was born, it was a shock to my birth family. They felt it was best to go our separate ways. And I have no idea what they felt, what they went through. I just know that they gave me life and this is me explaining my situation, my story, my start. Today when I was in dark places, I would use the word abandoned, rejected, and but now I try and move on from that because that’s, like I said, healthier for me. And so I was in hospital and the health professionals were unsure whether I’d be able to walk or talk or how I’d develop, how I’d be developing mentally. And they introduced me to a lady, a foster carer called Jean, and not even five foot, this tiny, incredible superhero in a 40s. Single mum lived in a council house. Her own children had grown up and moved on and she just had so much love to give. So she gave it to children that needed it and I needed that love.

And she’s always told me that she met me when I was two weeks old and the health professionals and the social workers were like, Jean, you need to be prepared for the way he looks. He looks different. And Jean, not even been five foot that just went straight over her head, but especially words like that. And she was just excited. She just loved babies. And she always told me when she first saw me, she couldn’t help but smile. When she first had the opportunity to hold me, she felt an instant connection and instant love and was like, When can I take him home? She fostered me for five years, tried to reconnect me with my birth parents. That didn’t work out and she adopted me when I was five on the 18th of May 1990, and she gave me this beautiful foundation. She gave me a second chance of having a home, a family, and that consistency of that was just huge for my upbringing. And she always told me I was beautiful and always told me I was special. But through my teenage years especially, I lost that. And I developed this hate for my appearance that just spreaded throughout my entire life. And I was just consumed with darkness.

That’s such a beautiful story. And I think one of the things that really stands out for me is the word connection and where she felt really connected to you. And I think that connection is one of the most important things in life. I remember that I was listening to a Ted Talk by Brene Brown. I don’t know if either one of you have heard of her and she’s an amazing woman and she says that connection is the one thing that basically is the most important thing in a community, and it is one of the sources of happiness. And the problem is actually with today and the issues of mental health is the lack of connection. And that’s the problem that people feel. And I always say that you need to work really hard on trying to feel a connection with somebody because that can ground you. And I think that’s important not just in dentistry, but in all aspects of life. You know, when you’re feeling that loneliness, there is always someone that connects to you in some way, you know? So I think that that’s really beautiful. Pay. Do you have anything to add?

So when did you realise that she wasn’t your birth mother? At what point did she make that clear to you?

I’ve always known that Jean wasn’t my birth mum. And, you know, for starters, we had a gotcha day celebration, and every 18th of May we would have a party. And, you know, I got to tell all the kids that, you know, your mums and dads, you know, were stuck with you, whereas my mum went to the hospital and out of all the kids there, my mum chose me like I’m the chosen one. How cool is that? And then I made these backstories of my birth parents. They were a couple of rock stars. My dad played guitar and my mum sang and they just couldn’t live with me. They couldn’t deal me with for whatever reason. And it’s just something that I’ve always known. And then as I got older, I was like, But Mum, why did you meet me in the hospital? Why couldn’t my birth parents love me? You’re a single mum. You we live in a council house. Why couldn’t they cope? And yet you can. And I challenged her, but every time I challenged her and every time I tried to speak to her about it, she answered every question that I ever had. And that was that was huge for me. And I took that information on board. And sometimes I accepted it and sometimes I was like, That’s not adding up. Um, so what sort of.

Things didn’t add up for you?

So again, when I was in those dark days, I was like, they rejected me because of my appearance. That’s what it was. And then if you know, you’ve heard the saying that eyes got a face only a mother could love. And I was like, Oh. That doesn’t apply to me. And it crushed me. And every time I would hear that, as, you know, just passing by, it was like, oh, a reality check that my mom couldn’t love me. And. That’s not the case. I mean, I don’t know if I’m sure my birth mother does have a love for me. You know, I don’t think you lose that. But I was making up all these I was trying to find answers that I were never going to find out. And that was a really unhealthy place to be. I was always, Why? Why me? Why did this have to happen to me? Why did I have to look like this? Why? Why? Why? When’s it going to get better? And I was just obsessed. I became obsessed with the whys and I really struggled with that.

And was that a certain point in your life? You said you mentioned as you got older. So do you think that’s because you were going into teenage hood? Do you think that that was about the people that you were around? You know, what do you think really was the catalyst for you to question, you know, the reality that you were living in?

As a child, I used to naturally celebrate who I was. You know, I celebrated that my mom got to choose me and I wear a hearing aid. So I’m hard of hearing. And I remember at junior school we would get into water fights and I would like soak my friends and then they would go to soak me. And I was like, Whoa, guys, I’ve got a hearing aid. I can’t get wet. I’ll blow up the entire school. And they were like, Oh, sorry, sorry. And I used to just celebrate who I was. But then as I started going into high school, secondary school, those stories that I once celebrated and shouted about, all of a sudden they became a little bit uncool. I didn’t feel like I could talk about them. I didn’t think I feel like I could celebrate them. And I became embarrassed about them. And and then I started seeing my friends get into relationships. And connection is going to come up a lot. During this conversation, I saw my friends getting into relationships and that never happened to me and I took that so personal. I was like my birth parents couldn’t love me. How is anybody else going to love me? How is anybody else going to find me attractive? Where does that leave my future when it comes to having a family of my own? And I grew up without a dad. I was adopted by a single mom and I was like one of my coping strategies. Dealing with that was one day I’m going to be a father and I’m going to be the father that I never had. But then all of a sudden I’m thinking one of my hopes to make everything better. I’m like, I’m never going to be a father. And it crushed me. So I was trying to find answers. But then I was taking those answers away. And it it was tough. It was tough.

I’m really sorry to hear that. But I know the man that you are now, so I know that this story has a happy ending. Now, one of the things again, I think that you said is really important is that a child you would always celebrate things. And I’m actually completely obsessed with the inner child. Right. I’m sure you’ve done a lot of reading around this. And I talk about this with my own therapist as well, because we always talk about the child. And I think actually when we are in our adult self, sometimes we should speak to ourselves as if we are our younger self, sit in a way that helps you give that compassion, as you said, because what would like adult Johno say to like little Johno? What would Adult Rohner say? And you know, adult payments each other. So I think that that’s like it’s something to learn from as well. Like, you know, how our childhood really does help us celebrate things.

Took us through the process of going from that self-loathing to, you know, right now you’re obviously in a much better place. What were the catalysts that made you change the way you think about yourself?

We need to go back onto the inner child stuff as well because I’ve just been doing some work on that. Oh, no.

Go, go, go for that if you want.

When we’re doing the takeaways. So the turning point was, um, so from 15 to the age of 2014 to 15. So I spent six, 6 to 5 years developing this hate from a face, hate from a birth parents. I was jealous of my friends and the only thing that I could do to manage it was to not look at my face. And every time I went out, I would look at my feet and I would go from A to B as quick as I could. And that was the only coping strategy that I could I could do. And I tried to manage it. Loads of things happened in life. But the big turning point came by accident. I was obsessed with sport and fitness, and when I was 20, I found myself working in a gym. And if you’ve ever been, I was a fitness instructor. And if you’ve ever been to the gym, there’s this crazy thing that happens. People pick up and use the weights, but it’s virtually impossible for it to for them to put them back. I don’t know what it is, but they just can’t put the weights back. So I had to do is I had to put the weight back and the weight rack in this gym was in front of the mirrors mirror from the floor to the ceiling. And I found myself putting the weights away, avoiding my face, avoiding my reflection. But one night I passed nine gym closed at 10:00. I was putting the weights away. I’m obsessed with trainers, so I just bought some trainers and I were looking at my trainers in the mirror and I was like, Oh, I like my trainers.

I had my little short shorts on and had got a tan, and I was like, Oh, I’ve got a nice set of legs. So on my boat. And I was like, Hey, I’ve got a cute butt and I’m working up and I’ve just done chest that day and I’m wearing an extra small shirt and I’ve got a bit of a pump on and I’m like, Oh, I’ve got an ice chest. And normally I always stopped at my shoulders, always stopped at my shoulders. But on this day, I’m on this roll. I love my trainers legs but chest. And I got to my face and I looked at my face and I hadn’t properly looked at my face for years. And I saw that I had blue eyes. And that sounds so stupid, but I’ve not seen my blue eyes in what felt like forever. And I smiled. And when I smiled I got this. When I smile I’ve got this little dimple on the left side and I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so cool. And I don’t know how I got there, but I was looking at a face that I was now smiling at. And now loving. And I was just like the biggest energy shift, this whole empowering of like, wow. And I still hadn’t made it. And there was still a lot of work to do and there was still a lot of trauma to get through. But I was looking at my face and that was massive.

Yeah, that’s amazing.

Well, that was the moment, right? But what do you think it was that made you get to that moment? Was it was your life going better than.

So human connection? We’re going to come back to human connection again. So from 17 to 17, 18, 19, my friends are going to college in university at first holidays, first jobs first girlfriends, first kisses. And I was hiding away at home. Every time my friends invited me on holiday, I would say no. And then I got so jealous that I wasn’t there. They were in relationships and. And I wasn’t. And I was angry and I was isolating myself. And a good friend of mine who’s still a really good friend. He got me a job working in a busy bar up in Yorkshire and I hated him for it because I’d been into bars and clubs and I spent more time hiding away in a toilet than I did actually interacting with people. And then all of a sudden I found myself working in a bar and I hated it. I absolutely hated it. And I would leave early, make excuses. But I met and again, I made so many connections in the bar industry that strangers just changed my life from it forever. And that was groundbreaking. Wow.

Yeah. And again, it reinforces what we said, that it’s just that connection even on that level of just meeting people on a night out and having those interactions which are so important, which is why social media, I think, has become so toxic because it’s so easy to be isolated and be on your phone and nothing really replaces that physical interaction, you know, with humans.

So there were two moments.

A guy walked into a bar head to toe in tattoos, muscles coming out of muscles I didn’t even know existed. And we made eye contact and he seen me. And I quickly looked down at the floor and I was like, Oh, God. And he came straight over to where I was working, and he just stared at me Everywhere I went. His eyes just followed me and I eventually served him and I was like, What would you like to drink? And I’m looking at the floor talking to him. And he was like trying to get eye contact with me. And he was like me, What happened to your face? And I hated talking about my face. And I was like, What would you like to have? What do you want to drink? And he’s like, No, no, mate, what’s happened to your ears? Why are your ears little? What’s that in your head? Is that a hearing aid? And I was like, Oh, I was born like this. And he was like and you know, Are you deaf? And I was like, Yeah, I’m Adria in a cat ear. Anything without my hearing aid. Just trying to quickly skim through the conversation. And he’s like, Hold up, mate. If you take your hearing aid out and I shout really loud.

Can you hear me? And I was like, No, I can’t hear a thing. And he was like, Oh, I made you so lucky. And I’m like, Why? And he’s like, I’ve got a wife at home. And she is so loud. Being deaf, having a hearing aid would save my marriage, I swear to God. And then the best thing ever happened to me. He held out his hand and he was like, What’s your name? Shook my hand. He was like, What do you want to drink? I was like, vodka. Red Bull, please. Got up. Same. We did a vodka Red Bull together. And he was like, Nice to meet you, Jono. And off he went. Human connection, complete stranger in a single moment changed my life forever because I thought he was going to be cruel. I thought he was going to be mean. But he was just curious. And he and he was for a moment. It was one of my first moments as an adult that I realised that it was okay to talk about my face and not in a negative way. And yes, he could have gone about it in a different way. But now I’m also aware that some people don’t have the vocabulary, they don’t have the personal skills to be able to approach topics.

But he just changed my life. He was just that stranger. And we all have that power inside us right now. A simple connection. A simple human connection can change somebody’s life forever, sometimes negative in a negative way and sometimes in a positive way. And he changed my life in such a beautiful, positive way. During that exact same period, I continued to work in that same bar. A girl started working there and she just kind of long story short, one night she was like, You know, I find myself staring at you all the time. And again I thought, I hate being stared at. I hated it, hated it, hated it. And I was like, this is not cool. This is not sexy. Oh, she’s staring at me. And before I had a chance to say anything back, she was like, John, I find myself staring at you all the time. I just love your face in it. And she leaned in and kissed me. And that was one of my first kisses. And again, a simple human connection changed my life forever. Those two things led me to being able to apply for a job at the gym. And then I found myself working.

Yeah, it really is.

One thing that I want to ask. You still haven’t asked how we met, by the way, so I’m still waiting for you to ask for that. Um, but one thing I wanted to ask you as well is that I understand now, through the way that you’re speaking, that you have so much compassion inquiry for the way that people behave and the way that people react, even if it’s not the desirable way. Like you just said a moment ago, some people might not use the right vocabulary because they’re just unaware, and that’s because you’ve got a great understanding of human beings in general. Not a lot of people have that, and I think that’s incredible insight. But having said that, did you have a lot of resentment for people up until that point, up until you essentially done the work to understand people?

I hated people. I believe that we live in a we still do live in a world that’s obsessed with image and obsessed with looks. And I think that can be really unhealthy for every single one of us. Um, and I genuinely believe that I didn’t belong in this world that were obsessed with image and obsessed with looks. And I hated everybody in it. Like I said, my friends, I was so jealous that they just everybody just had these beautiful faces. And I had this face and and I hated that as it, you know, before I stopped looking in the mirror. When I did look in the mirror, I would push my eyes up to try and make it look like everybody else. And I thought muscle memory will kick in. And if eventually if I just hold it like that, something would change. And again, I got so angry that I couldn’t change my face. And then again, it all went back to my birth parents. And then I had an anger and a hate towards them. And that hate and anger just took over me. And I was just I was a hateful person.

Um, I think I think hate is quite dangerous thing and it’s a hard place to be in because when you hate things, you think if you hate enough, you can change it. And the reality is you can’t. And actually having understanding compassion is something that’s so much more powerful. So you can ask me the question then. Yeah, go on then.

I was gonna ask a different question first.

He’s always doing this, by the way. We’ve known each other since we were like 20 wind up merchants. So this is it. I’ll, I’ll say, like black. He’ll say white. Oh, okay. He’ll say down. So cool. All right, we’re playing this game. All right.

No, no, the.

Editor will sort it, but no p since you had these two moments that, you know, it was a connection from a stranger that changed so much for you. Are you now aware of that, that you can have that effect on someone else as a stranger? Massively. I’m not easy. I mean.

Just a massively like, honestly, we all have the power to the next whoever’s listening to. This your next human interaction, your next interaction with somebody else. You can change that person’s life forever. A handshake, a smile, a good morning. You have the power to change someone’s life forever. And now when? So I was recently, I started dating somebody and we went on dog walks and she was like, John, Oh, you talked to everybody. And I was like, And I’m not really thought about it. And she was like, You’ve said good morning to every single person that we’ve passed. And I was like, Yeah. And and I and I started analysing that and I’m like, Why do I do it? And it’s part of that human connection. But it’s also taking control because I was terrified of people looking at me and like them assuming or them making like, Oh, who is this person? Why does it look like that? And then all of a sudden if I say, Hey, good morning with a smile. Hey, how are you doing? All of a sudden that goes away and there’s a nice, pleasant interaction there. It’s a positive experience for them and it’s a positive experience for me. I’m taking control of that.

Um, I think, you know, there’s another really important point that you, you look a certain way, so you’ve got to worry about prejudgements and that sort of thing. But there’s, there’s plenty of people who look fantastic, but somewhere inside them, there’s something that’s broken. And, you know that, that, you know, the notion of be kind in general, you know, the person could be on paper, the luckiest person in the world could be a supermodel or whatever. But we know sometimes those people are the most damaged people of them all. And the idea that connection, you know, we we are a community species, that that’s what we’re good at, that any interaction could be one like that. It’s so inspiring. It’s such a it’s such a beautiful thing. Thank you. You know, it really is.

And again, you’ve just hit the nail on the head. I think every single one of us has got something inside of us, insecurities, things that we’re scared of, fears.

But yeah, yeah. Tell me.

Tell me, how did.

You guys meet?

I’ll tell you in a second.

I know my own time now.

I’m on my own time. The one thing that John says, though, is that like judgement, right? And I know that we’ve touched on this before because I’ve been quite sensitive about it, because I’m judged for also for the way I look. We’re all judged on some extent by our exterior, and I hate that, you know, because at certain points of my life people have judged me incorrectly and cruelly, you know, because of the way that I look. And I still find that difficult.

What things do they pick on or what do you know, any elements?

I think there’s certain elements that they think that like, I’ve got to where I am because of the way that I look, that I’ve not worked hard enough. Or they’d say that I look like I’m up myself, or that I am arrogant, that I love myself. And you know what’s interesting about that? Actually, it’s taken me a really long time to love certain aspects of myself. And I think even if someone does love themselves, why is that negative? Why aren’t we allowed to love ourselves? If you see somebody celebrating themselves on social media or something like that, posting a photo or something like that, you know, I’m like, That’s okay. You know, people are allowed to celebrate the things they do.

You know.

One of the most misjudged people.

Thank you.

See in dentistry. Yeah, that I know that she she projects a confidence. Confidence. But but but I think people think you’re shallow to some extent. This is what I mean. Whereas you’re one of the deepest people around. And there is that mismatch, right? If if the mismatch is a problem, it’s a problem, right? In the same way as if someone prejudges Jonah when they see him. But if you could own it and be cool with it. Yeah. That people will find out who the real me is. Once they’ve known me for a while, you know, then that’s even cooler. You know, it’s a it’s an interesting thing.

Totally. But I think, you know, the things that we talk about today are so much more important to me now. I have to admit I have fallen into the trap of image based things to an extent that I feel that I need to present myself in a certain way to get acceptance and approval. I’m not going to lie to you guys, you know, like I like looking and feeling good, as we all do. Suave outfit. You know, you do it for yourself, right?

They self care. Yeah.

It’s self care. Self care is self love. And I do believe that. But there is an element of validation which we’ve discussed as well. And I think that sometimes it is hard. But the, the point I’m trying to really make in a roundabout way is that like we’re all judging each other to some extent. Right? And I think that that’s something that we can say never judge because you never know what someone is going through. And I think one of my favourite most cliche quotes is be kind, because you don’t know what others are going through and you will see stories of people like Caroline Flack or recently with Twitch, the Dancer, where they will project happiness, success, fame, sexiness, all that. Stuff and then they’ll kill themselves, you know, because we don’t know what they’re going through. So I always say that even if people behave in an angry way, like you said, you’ve been there. There’s a story. They’re angry for a reason. Do you see what I mean? You know? So I think that’s just a really important point.

You know, I mean, at the industry we’re in is partly responsible for that world that you’re talking about, which is, you know, why is everything going to be about the way you look? I mean, she’s one of the most famous cosmetic dentists around. I make a teeth whitening product in my own defence, Right. We specifically try not to play on, on on the sort of the weakness or the sort of insecurity. Insecurity of a of, of a of a smile.

And this leads.

Into how we met, by the way. So go.

On.

So, so I’m, I’m constantly telling my team, look, a smile is on a person. Let’s talk about people rather than talking about teeth. You know, that’s that’s it. But but, you know, we got to put our hands up. We’re in that world. We’re in that world of making people prettier and. And look, these pretty, pretty, pretty girls on the walls, you know? Um, you know, even when we’ve tried, we said, Oh, let’s be really authentic now, and let’s have someone with a gap in between their teeth. At the last moment, we’ve pulled out and made it another pretty smile. But this, this world that that is so image based. Do you feel that you’re you’re over that and that the world itself will develop into something. I mean we’ve become as a as a as a society much more accepting of diversity. For instance, I, I saw two guys kissing each other in the street yesterday and I thought back to like 20 years ago, that would have shocked me, you know. And now it doesn’t feel like such a big issue. How do you feel? It’s it’s it’s moved on. Do you do you get like now compared to ten years ago, do you get different feelings on the streets?

So I we’re in dangerous ground because I do think teeth whitening is okay. I do think dentist work is is okay. I think Botox is okay. I think a well-balanced, well-balanced diet is okay. Wanting to tan is okay, wanting to colour your hair is okay. Lip fillers is okay. All these things are perfectly okay and perfectly acceptable. But when they become a dependency for somebody, that’s when it becomes dangerous. If they genuinely believe that if I get this done or if I’m going to do this, I am going to be happy. So I think it’s important that whilst we do these things that we we can buy these things. We also do the emotional well-being and we do the emotional work. And this is how you and I met.

Oh, finally.

How did you work it in?

How did you.

Meet?

Okay, well, I’ll let I’ll essentially I got called up to come on a TV programme and I was informed that Jono was heavily involved. And then I was said there’s going to be patients, there’s going to be doctors, and then I’m going to let him finish the rest of the narrative because it ties in perfectly.

So we have this clinic in Yorkshire and people come to us and they have been thinking about treatments on their appearance, on their faces, and they’ve been thinking, will that work for them? Will that be the answer to their problems? Will? Are they doing it for themselves or are they doing it for because of society the way it’s treat them? And they’re have all these things going on. And we had such a range of conditions. We did have somebody with a gap between their tooth. We we did have somebody that had had childhood cancer, somebody that was. And I’d been involved in an acid attack. We had a wide range of appearance related conditions and it was to the individual, it was massive to them. It had taken over their life. And I sat down with them and I spoke to them and I listened to them. Sometimes they wanted answers from me. Sometimes they just want to be heard. And I did all that with them. And then alongside these conversations that we were having, we had these crazy, amazing health professionals were then able, were then able to talk about treatments, and they’ve then gone away and thought, okay, we’ve done the emotional conversations. We start picking whether it’s right for me or whatever, and then the talking to the health professionals and hopefully those conversations with the health professionals are coming from a place of love and acceptance rather than feeling the need to be fixed. And Rona was somebody who again listened to them and guided them and walked along that journey with them rather than saying, We can do this, this and this. She walked alongside them. And I and that’s something that I really admired about you. So yeah, that’s how we met.

Yeah, it was it.

Was honestly one of the most inspiring filming days. And that’s when I was like blown away by Johnno and I was like, This guy is incredible because as I said, like and it was interesting to observe health professionals in a way, and I think this isn’t a conversation because they’re so clinical. They’re like, There’s this condition, so we’re going to do this. But again, like you said, don’t talk to the teeth, Talk to the human being behind the teeth, behind the smile.

The thing is, look, I think it’s your superpower as a clinician. It’s it’s you know, everyone has a superpower. Your people think your superpower is social media. Yeah, but it isn’t. It’s your your superpower is empathy. And and empathy is what patients want, which is why you’re such a successful dentist. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You figured out Instagram? Yeah, but I don’t think that’s your superpower. Yeah, you know, different people can do Instagram, but the way that you speak to your patients, what I’ve seen and the way that you get their feeling and take that on yourself. And as dentists, it’s the number one skill. It’s the most important skill, right? Because, okay, you can do a filling. You can, you can you can prep a tooth, you can you can do all the things that that we learn about. But that side of it is the difference between liking your dentist and loving your dentist, you know, and that’s that’s why you’ve done so well. There’s no doubt about it. Yeah.

You’ve spoken about connection and it’s amazing to hear that you’ve obviously had some incredible connections in your life. Now, I know as well that there’s a possibility of your condition being passed on to children. How has that affected your relationships? Has it affected it or not? Talk us through it all.

Um, so again, just to hold that hold that thought, as health professionals, I’ve spent my entire life seeing every health professional under the sun. Um, their bedside manner in a lot of cases is terrible. Like I’ve.

Terrible.

Some, some people have like wanted to do an operation or a surgery and I don’t even know their name. And I’m like, okay, you know, And they just it’s so easy to forget because and I get there must be so much pressure. I need to see this patient. I want to give them the best line of work. And let’s talk about work, work, work, work, work. But ask me what my favourite football team is. You know, just like some simple thing like that is huge. And then. Okay, now. And now I’m in. Now I’m in safe hands. And I remember I had a local anaesthetic. I’ve got a screw in my head that my hearing aid attaches onto. I don’t want to be seen doing that on the camera too much, do I? But I’ve got a screw in my head that my hearing aid attaches onto. And every now and again the skin around it gets inflamed and starts growing over the screw and it needs cutting away and so on the local anaesthetic, they’ll put the drapes over me and I’m there and I’m nervous. And then a nurse’s hand will just come onto the blanket and hold my hand. And honestly, that’s the best pain relief ever again. It’s human connection. Just just that warmth of a hand. Another hand is just and I still appreciate that as as a 30 year old man. Um, so I mean, look.

If they want to punish prisoners, they put them into solitary confinement. You know what.

Shows you that? That, like, removing all connections is the worst punishment.

You imagine being in prison. The best thing would be to be in solitary confinement. You’re away from the murderers. But even in prison, that’s the worst thing that can happen to you to to cut you off.

Being all alone. Isolation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But about kids.

Kids tell us.

So I was a happy kid. Happy kid. And then all of a sudden, I’m learning about the birds and the bees. And then all of a sudden, I’m learning about genetics. And then I learn as a young teenager that there’s a 5050 chance that I might pass on my condition to my child. And that terrified me. Absolutely terrified me. I would love a little blonde haired, blue eyed Jonathan running around, taking his hearing aid out when I’m trying to get him back here quicker and whatever. Let me feed you. Do your homework. No, no, no. I would absolutely love that. But the thing that terrifies me is with Treacher Collins, it’s an airway thing. And over these past few years, I have experienced far too many deaths within our community. Um, and it’s crushing and it’s heartbreaking. And then when it comes to then me thinking of my own family, especially as a kid, when I didn’t have the life skills or the emotional capacity to deal with it. I’m like, and then when it comes to relationships, I’m like, They’re not going to find me attractive. And then if somebody does find me attractive and I find myself in a relationship with them, and then I’m going to drop this bombshell on them that I’m going to pass on my condition to my child. Like, when do I tell them? Do I tell them on a first date and then they’ll run a mile and this one person out of the entire world found me attractive and she’s run a mile because I’m scared them off.

Or like, do I let her fall in love with me? Then do I tell her? And I’m a kid, I’m a teenage boy, and I’m like, Oh my God, what do I do? What do I do? And then I start doing research. Oh, you can have operations where you can not have children. Oh, okay. I think that’s what I’ll do as an adult. And obviously I didn’t go through with it. But again, I’m trying to find answers that I didn’t have the right information or guidance to do. And then now as an adult, it. It’s recently I’m having these conversations first date, second date, and then they’re having conversation. Oh, I don’t want kids. I’m not sure if I want kids or I’ve got this. And being able to talk to somebody and be vulnerable with somebody. Again, it comes to human connection. Being able to connect with another human being about dark thoughts, about scary thoughts, about things that we’ve hidden. All of a sudden you’re sharing with somebody and then it’s quite a turn on. You know, you can flirt and you can do all the sexy stuff, but when you’re being vulnerable, that is just like a lost connection on such a deeper level. It’s, it’s yeah, but sort of.

You know, the this angel who brought you up.

Jean.

Jean, don’t. Don’t you think this having, having witnessed that, don’t you think that you could then do that you could adopt a kid and do that for someone else?

Yeah, that’s a great point.

Yeah.

So again, as I’ve grown up, I would love to adopt, I would love to foster. There are children, more and more children in care, and there’s a shortage of foster carers and people willing to adopt and there is a need for people, but that obviously the other person in my life that I meet and go have that decision with, they’re going to have that, they’re going to have their say. And we’ve had a look at I’ve, I’ve also explored IVF, IVF, PGD, and then I did a documentary a few years ago about IVF, PGD.

What does it stand for?

Oh, do you know the PGD? So basically, I do my bit in the test tube and.

Then we’re not real.

Doctors, so I wouldn’t know.

So I put with your dad. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and then we’ve got the eggs. Yeah. We put them together. And then once that process has started, they test it for Treacher Collins and then if we’ve got eight samples, if seven of them have got Treacher Collins, we don’t use them and we use the one with outreach. Collins And then we use that and hopefully that sticks and then hopefully the woman gets pregnant. But then, you know, that’s that’s scary. You know, if my birth parents had have done that, I would have been one of the ones that were tossed aside. And I and I absolutely love who I am. It’s it’s a minefield. But I can talk about it.

A bit of a bit of a difficult question. If you could now push a button and change your face, would you?

Oh, hell no. Not 100%. Like, I love that.

I love it.

I and again, it comes back to human connection and in a child stuff. So I did some work on my inner child last year. Therapist Yes, my therapist.

By the way.

Therapy is great and putting out there. I have a therapist. She’s coming on the show as well. Therapy is an amazing thing for self healing and mental health. Just want to put it out there.

So I completely echo that. A therapist should be just like going to the gym. It should be part of maybe not do it three times a week, but it should be a regular thing that you do throughout the year, throughout your lifetime. And and my therapist. So I was in a relationship that ended this was only last year. And then when it ended, I found myself loving that person even more. And and it was a really happy relationship that just ended. And I was like, oh, I’ve been rejected again and I’m loving this person and I didn’t want to lose this. And I’m like, Why do people keep on leaving me for abandonment? I, I through this work and speaking to my therapist, I still had an unhealthy coping mechanisms, abandonment, feelings going on. And he was like, John, I want you to spend some time with your inner child. I want you to talk to him. I want you to love him. I want you to listen to him. I want you to hold him. I want you to spend time with him. And I’m very I’m a tactile person. So I got one of my old teddies, and I put a one of my old rugby shirts on him, called him Little J, and he’s in he’s in my car at the train station parked up. He goes everywhere with me. And the first day I did it, I did a photoshoot up in Newcastle.

It took me a two hour drive to get up there and I’m so in tune with music. Song came on and I started crying and I looked over to Little J and I was like, Why do we keep on getting rejected? And and honestly, I broke down and then I remembered what my therapist said. And he’s like, Talk to him. So I was talking to him and I was like, You know what, little J Yes, we’ve experienced rejection, but we’ve also made so many beautiful connections throughout our entire life, starting with Momma Jean, starting with. All these kids and all these families that I’ve met throughout my life, I’ve had some beautiful relationships. And yes, they haven’t worked out, but they’ve been beautiful relationships that I’ve been blessed to experience. And I kept on saying to Little J, we attract. We attract beautiful moments and experiences. And I think through looking the way I do, I’ve had to do the work for such a young age, and I see such a unique beauty in our world and I wouldn’t change any of it. I just when I get trolls abusing me and I feel so sorry for them because they don’t see the beauty that I see in the world. And and it’s one of my superpowers. And I won’t change that for anything.

You know, speaking of trolls and so forth. And that’s the thing. Like, it’s really funny because I was obviously in a completely different way, trolled online, and I found it really difficult for different reasons. But now again, it’s that thing of like, you develop empathy when you do the work because you’re like, people are trolling for a reason. If people are trolls, they’re actually very hurt people. You know, if they can be that cruel to other people, they haven’t done any of the work. And you know what you said pay as well. Like if Jonno had changed anything, he wouldn’t have done all the incredible things. He’s gone on to help people in schools. He’s written a book. You know, he’s also had connections with some incredible people like Fearne Cotton. You know, you’ve developed an amazing relationship with her and she’s astounded. Um, and also Katie Piper. I know she’s kind of spoken about you and these opportunities may not have happened, you know, like a real ability to make a difference. And I think that’s a really beautiful thing for sure.

So what do you do now for work?

And I so I spent I did work in the fitness industry. And then for the past 16 years, I’ve worked in the care industry supporting like my mum was a foster carer for vulnerable children, children with autism and various other learning disabilities and physical disabilities. So I went into the care sector myself and, and worked in that industry. And then recently I quit that to focus on my book. And I’ve just wrote in my first book, Um, what’s it called?

Where’s my signed copy?

Um, so it’s called Not All Heroes Wear Capes comes out on the 20th of July this year, and I will get you a signed copy. Um, um, it is available to pre-order on Amazon was in W.H. Smith’s, um, and Book Depository. Um, and I share about my life and it’s called Not All Heroes Wear Capes. And I’ve met people in my life that assured me love the guy in the bar, that stranger, they were heroes to me. They didn’t have the capes. They didn’t have they couldn’t fly or anything like. But they saved my life when I was in my darkest times. And by them showing me love, I eventually found love for myself. And then that was enabled me to become my own hero. And when you reach that point full of self-love, being able to be your own hero, then you’re on to a winner. But that’s not me isolating myself and saying I can’t do everything. It’s me also recognising that in my tool kit, in my super hero belt, as you will, I’ve got therapy, I’ve got friends, I’ve got music, I’ve got drawing, I’ve got all these other little things in my emotional tool kit to be able to help myself.

This work that you did in the clinic about we’d broadly call that sort of body dysmorphic syndrome, where people think having a procedure is going to solve their life. And, you know, for dentists, for cosmetic dentists, it’s a massive issue because someone will come say, do my teeth.

And it will change my.

Life. You know.

The job, the partner.

Whatever you do to their teeth, they’re never happy with because the teeth weren’t the problem. It was something psychological. Do you have some insights on that body dysmorphia that you can help us with?

So I hated my face. And 18, 19, 20 years old, I became obsessed with my body. And I thought, if my face ain’t all that I need to make everything else compensating the best it could be. So I became obsessed with with the gym and fitness. I became obsessed with food. I would only eat chicken and vegetables. That was the only thing that I would allow to have gravy. I wouldn’t be able to have carbs. I had to be I had to have abs. It was abs in my head meant that I could be a little bit attractive. I used to run in the sauna to dehydrate myself. I used to be obsessed with sunbeds. I would buy designer clothes and I was like, Oh, if I do all these things, I might be a four out of ten and somebody might find me attractive. And then I am having these stories in my head like there’s a couple of girls like talking and like, Oh, you’re dating Jono, why are you dating Jono? And I’m like, in my head I’m thinking, Oh, they’ll say, Oh, he’s facing all of that, but he’s got a nice body. Or I used to, I had no boundaries and I was a people pleaser. Oh he’ll do X, y, z for me. And I just became obsessed. And I remember talking to health professionals throughout my childhood and we’re like, Jono, we can improve your faith.

You know, we can build your cheekbones, we can build your ears up and we can improve these features, we can improve your face. And I thought I never shared it, but I said no. And I would say to my mum, you know, I was made like this and I would make a joke. I’m brilliant at putting on a fake smile. And I would say to my mum, I was like, Mum, you wouldn’t even recognise me if I had all this work done, you know? And but deep down I didn’t want my face improving. I wanted a new face. I wanted a face like yours. I wanted a face like yours. And the fact that they couldn’t do that for me said no. I said no. But everything happens for a reason. And by me saying no as forced me to do that emotional work and all of a sudden my face hasn’t changed. But my world has because I’ve accepted that I’ve had to do the work without the cosmetic side of things. So again, the advice is if you do choose any treatment, you still need to do the work on accepting or working through the trauma, talking to your inner child, seeing a therapist, whatever it is, whatever stage of your life you are, if you’re happy or if you start, you still need to do the work. So that would be the answer to that.

One of the big things.

So I said so talking about steps that have improved your mental health, we’ve talked about therapy, which I think is like a non-negotiable, like you said. I mean, there’s some funny episodes in Sex and the City as well, where like, everyone has a therapist like having a gym instructor, as he said. So like, you know, I think, again, that stigma should be removed. You don’t just see a therapist because you think you’re ill mentally. Literally, a therapist can help navigate who you are. I’m in a great place at the moment, but I still speak to my therapist because I’m like, I catch myself. Certain things he said, certain because it’s so ingrained. We all have completely different thinking, like our memories are all formed from childhood experiences. As I said, Johnno, feeling like left at some points in his life, shows up in other ways in his life. Like, you know, as I said, like even breaking up with his therapist, she’s like, Don’t leave me. He’s not leaving him. But it’s just a trauma that’s been triggered. And sometimes I’m a very reactive person. I actually have a very high sort of energy and sometimes I get really easily offended. And I think it’s because things happen to me as a child to make me get easily offended. So now I try to catch myself and take three before responding. So to be reactive, I’m not reactive. I’m like, okay, just take a few days and then respond. And I think that I wouldn’t have been able to do that work without therapy. So I think therapy is a great thing. But what what else do you think kind of helped your mental health journey, which was always a work in progress for most people?

I recognised I used I used to try and escape reality. So again, 20 2120. 223 When I did start accepting who I was, I had an addiction around alcohol and sex. The alcohol gave me a false confidence and then somebody finding me sexually attractive was like my ultimate drug. And I was like, Oh, okay, I’m sexually attractive. Then that’s okay. That that’s that’s it. I’m I belong in this world because somebody finds me sexually attractive, and then the next day I’d be hung over and I’d be on my own. And then all these feelings that had come flooding back in again, it was so temporary. It was like the sun bed and it was just so temporary. So we’ve got to try and think, find things that are more long lasting that can stay with us and that is self love. What do we love about ourselves? And that’s something that I accidentally discovered in the gym when I was looking at my face. And you know, we talk about therapy. It’s hugely important. Finding things that we love about ourselves is hugely important too, because we never, ever go there. And for me, it was looking at my face and finding it. But then now I’ve gone in to my inner child and I’ve gone deep within and talking about when I was sat with Little J, I started finding things that I loved about Little J.

And he used to write Girls Love Poems, and he used to take quotes from Celine like lyrics from Celine Dion and put them in my poems and give them to girls and stuff. And I was like, I love that kid so much. With his little bowl cut that was copied from like, David Beckham and Nick Carter from the Backstreet Boys. I was so influenced by by, by music and film. And I would dress up like my favourite film character. And I loved him. I absolutely loved him. So I’m unpicking who I am and all those coping mechanisms. But one thing I want to touch on when I was I’ve, I’ve always thought about death and I’ve always questioned whether I belonged in this world. When I was 17, I started going into town drinking, and that’s when I saw all my friends pulling and one night stands. And how many people have you slept with? That didn’t happen for me. And I judged myself on how many people had not slept with. And I’m like, Oh, I’m less because I’ve not experienced these things. And then in a nightclub I’d be able to hide away. And then all of a sudden you in a bright takeaway and everybody’s looking at you. I found that so embarrassing and I hated it. So I would walk home and instead of going into a taxi with all my friends, I would walk home.

And I remember walking home once from my way to from town to my little village. There’s a crematorium still there now. And there’s a big dip. And you get down to the crematorium. The crematorium used to terrify me, so I always used to walk in the road. One night, early morning, I’m walking home. A taxi comes down this hill and it nearly hits me. And I’ve stepped outside and it’s bombed on into into next village. And that was 17 year old. That was the first time I realised that I wished that car had have hit me. I’ve when I talk about suicidal thoughts, I’ve never thought about taking pills. I’ve never thought about cutting a wrist or anything like that. I wanted to be in a car accident. I wanted to have something that would take me out of this this place where I didn’t belong. And eventually I worked through all that. And as I’ve said, I’ve got to a better place. But then four years ago, 2017, 2018, so 2017, everything I touched turned to gold. I was public speaking all over the world. I was in a relationship. I was raising thousands and thousands for charity. I was doing my own TV documentaries. I bought my own house. I was fit. I was talking about my emotions and my feelings.

I was in a really, really good place. And then 2018, January, February. And my mom, Jean, she ended up in hospital. That scared me. She’s okay now, but she ended up in hospital. A friend passed away. A relationship that’s again, that’s a common theme. A relationship ended and I was in a car crash. I wasn’t thinking and I was in a car crash. And all of a sudden I was I was going I was crying all day and I was hiding my feelings, putting on that fake mask when I was around people. Then when I was on my own, I would cry and I felt pain. I was drinking and I just wanted it to all stop and all go away. And I just felt numb. Woke up in a panic, and I thought I was having a heart attack. I had a pain in my chest. My my arm felt numb. I found 999 a firstrillionesponder came out and he sat me down on my sofa and he got me to breathe. And I was like and I felt okay. And I went back to bed following night, same thing happened. I were drinking. I fell asleep because I just wanted I was trying to escape all this pain. And the following day I took myself to A&E and this doctor did all of the checks on me, and he was like, everything was fine.

And I was sat in a waiting room in a in a side cubicle, and he was like, I’ve been observing you. Your results have been back a while ago and I’ve just been observing you. What’s going on, What’s wrong? And I was like, Everything’s fine. And I took myself home and he actually phoned my GP up as well during this process. And on my way home from the doctors I bought some more alcohol, I drank, and again, I was just crying and I just felt numb and I just wanted it all to stop and I didn’t know how to end it. I didn’t know how to take all this pain away. I wasn’t thinking. I eventually fell asleep and I woke up and every time I was waking up, all this pain and all this emotion just hit me. And during this time, somebody out on Love Island had taken their own life. Yeah. And had hung themself. And I became obsessed with How did they find the tree? How did they find the branch? How did they find the location? How did they find the rope? How did they get to that situation of ending it all and escaping this pain? I wanted to know how I could do that. How could I reach that? And I found myself downstairs in the kitchen and I was looking at my knives and I was so scared to touch him.

And I didn’t I didn’t touch them, but I was like, how was he got to that point? And I can’t. And thankfully it passed and I ended up talking to a suicide hotline. I don’t think that helped. They didn’t give me any advice or anything like that. But I spoke and then the next day I wrote a big massive message and sent it all to my friends. This is what’s happened. The emergency doctor had spoken to my GP. My GP then rang me to do a check in with me. How are you doing? And I started working and me and my friends agreed to go out for meals. We used to do like, boozy lads nights out. This is when I’m in my 30s in a good place. We do all these boozy nights out where we’d have a laugh and a joke and we were like, Let’s just go out. No alcohol, let’s have a nice meal. And we’d talk and we talked about things. And so what I’m getting is whether you’re in a dark place or when you’re in a happy place and everything you touch turns to gold, you still need to be doing the work because every now and again you might just get a kick in the gut. They’ll just throw you.

And I mean, 2018 isn’t that long ago. It’s, you know, there’s a there’s a fragility that you need to be constantly aware of because, you know, the it’s a beautiful story saying that you’ve gotten through it and all of that. But something at the beginning was so difficult that you got to be constantly aware that that could come and get you, you know, to do the work, as you’re saying, the work.

F f. F. F. F, f f for whatever reasons. It can happen to any single one of us at any moment in our life.

And I mean, dentists are famously take their lives more than any other professionals. The it’s and we were trying to figure out why I was going to say why yeah we don’t know we don’t we’re not sure why there’s some isolation in it. There’s there’s some sort of high achieving ness in it or something. Yeah but, but you know the.

And the thing is like actually a lot of them the most. Uh, I don’t know. I probably won’t use the right word, but they often find that when dentists do decide to take their own life, it’s usually in the surgery. So a lot of people find them in the surgery. Yeah. So it’s interesting that we know that it is linked to work somewhat. Do you see what I mean? So I think that is but I think, you know, Payman and I have been trying to unravel. But why is it dentists? You know, people get stressed and.

Apparently anaesthetists as.

Well. Anaesthetists are farmers to farmers. But I can understand why. But again, with farmers, it’s a very lonely profession. Do you see what I mean? You know, like dentistry like. And it goes back and the thing is, you mentioned again, connection. And I think that, you know, one of the big takeaways as well is that we need to constantly be finding connections. Because you just said the dinners with your friends, it’s a check in. It’s a way for you to be like, how are you doing? And it’s not just a WhatsApp or an Instagram message. It’s that physical connection. I remember even when I said you pretty, please come on this podcast and you said, Can we do it in person? I said, Of course, no other way, because it’s so much better, you.

Know, was being here.

I mean, this this series we we don’t normally do our podcasts in person but this.

I insisted.

This it just made so much sense for this series. Yeah I’ve got a question for you. So sorry for you around forgiveness. Of your birth parents. Have you had that sort of moment of. Sort of. Squaring that that that issue that.

So my birth parents gave me life. They made this who I am and they brought me into this world and they gave me life. And for that, I am forever grateful. They gave me a life that’s mine to live and fill it with love, fill it with adventure, fill it with connection. And I do like. Uh, with every part of me I just love and I seek out connection. And I do. And I have no hate for them. I’ve just come back from Africa and won quite a few. I went to some schools that were refugee schools and they in separate speaking events so they hadn’t heard the other questions that the other kids asked. Every single group, they asked a question Do you still love your birth parents? I’ve never been asked that anywhere else in the world other than those refugee schools in Africa. And I’ve never really thought about I’ve never I know I do love them. I don’t love them the way I love my mom and Jean. I love her with all my heart in in in that way. And then I have a love and a respect for my birth parents for for giving me an opportunity to to have a life and to have a family and a home and, um. Yeah, there’s no hate for them at all.

No. I understand as well, though, that you did try to contact your birth parents some years later as well. So what happened?

Um, so in my mid 20s I was in a really, really good place. I was in a really healthy relationship. Um, I was just happy, really, really happy. And I’d gone from hating my birth parents to saying, Hey, you know what? I want to share with you? That I’m okay and I’m open to meeting them if they wanted to. So I did it through after adoption services and I sat down with a lady and we accept we went through all my adoption reports and the adoption reports from the 80s were awful. We talked about the language. It was just cold and just so clinical. And when I was reading this and the adoption support work was reading this, and she was like, Johno, when we reach out to your birth parents, if that’s the way we decide to go through with this, I don’t think you’re going to receive a positive outcome. But it’s up to you. Do you still want to do this? And I said, Yes, I want to reach out to them. I want to let them know I’m okay and if they’re open to meeting me. So we sent them a letter and then two weeks later we got a letter back. From their solicitor regarding this subject. We do not wish any contact. Further attempts will be ignored and both my birth parents had signed it and. It broke my heart. It was another rejection and I was crushed. But during that time, I had spoken to Mama Jean and my partner at the time and my friends and I cried and I hurt and I was able to to move on. And I was able to live and I was able to I felt it. I’m a believer in feeling pain and I’m a believer of sitting with it and kind of like, okay, but you.

Purged it.

And, and, um, I, I moved on from it.

And I think that shows.

Your growth even further because I recently commented on Giovanni’s podcast when I spoke to you and I said, we become a society of self-soothing when we don’t want to sit with discomfort, we self-soothe. So it might be alcohol, drugs, sex, whatever. But really learning to just sit with that discomfort is actually really important and quite healing. And I’m trying to do it. There’s still like work to be done and, you know, you could even be self soothing by going on social media, like try to make the feelings go away something. So it shows, you know, how.

Much you grow.

It reminds me of grief, you know, when, when, when someone close to you passes away. Then I don’t know. I’m not a natural crier or whatever, but. But sometimes you cry and then you feel better. Yeah. It’s a cathartic emotion coming out. Yeah. Catharsis.

I purposely make myself cry. Um. Yeah, I. If I know I need to cry, I know I can watch the first 15 minutes of up. I’m bawling my eyes out of the animation up and it just.

And it just makes you feel better.

Crying and watch and a cry. And I. And I feel.

What’s up? Oh, my.

God. Up is amazing. Soul is amazing, too. Have you seen Soul?

Soul. Soul.

Tonight on the train.

Yeah.

Yeah, I’ll find that. Yeah, But another thing that I did last year, that walk home that I used to do as a teenager, I redid it, and I did it at 2:00 in the morning and police car stopped me and asked me what I was doing, and I was like, I’m doing this. And they were.

Like, crack.

On.

Crack on. And, um. And I felt it and I felt it. And again, when I’d done that rejection and that abandonment and that relationship ending, we went to a spa together. Absolutely amazing. I had a brilliant time. When we broke up, I went to that spa on my own and I and and I saw the the the outside Jacuzzi that we went in. People were there were couples. There were there were there were the robes there. And I purposely put myself in that situation on my own. And I felt it and I and I cried and I hurt. But there’s something I find quite therapeutic about going there again. And and and I feel a growth. And and then when people ask me about the public speaking and when I’m doing the talks in front of the kids, they’re like, is it draining? Is it hard? And I’m like, it’s three therapists, three therapy. I’m talking about These.

Podcasts are.

Definitely free.

Therapy.

Do people need to try it? Talking in front of kids about all your vulnerabilities and like, have you got any questions? And you’re like, What’s your favourite song? Who’s your favourite singer? And and you’re like, I’ve just offloaded on to you guys and that’s all you want to know. It’s like, Well, can we play football with you at playground? And I’m like, Yeah, let’s do it. And again, connection, talking, revisiting painful things in situations, having a good cry. Um, I’m.

Interested in Little J. I mean, does your therapist tell you to talk to your child self?

Yeah. So with the inner child stuff as well, Um, we’re actually doing something called Emdr. I don’t know if you did it, John. So Emdr is actually where you use your eyes to revisit an uncomfortable memory. And the memory may be the cause of, like, a the way that you are now and the way that you react to things, you know? So it’s like if I expressed to my therapist that I suffer a lot when people make a comment about a certain thing and it’s related to particular like possibly a particular event. So you’ve got to think about and the event might be something that you think wasn’t a big deal. Like it could be your parents arguing, your mum sort of telling you that you weren’t good enough when you were five years old or, you know, putting some kind of punishment. And then you go back to you go back to that memory and then you have to then talk. See yourself as a child, observing yourself in that memory. So for me, there was a memory that came up about university. But, you know, she says like, well, what would your five year old say? Do you see? I mean, you’re in your child. And what would the five year old say to you as your 20 year old self? Do you see what I mean? So you do work like that.

But what’s with.

The eye? You move your eye to sort.

Of the therapist.

Sort of change between child.

A little bit. There’s no, no. She it’s a little bit of hypnotherapy that when you follow the finger, it changes something in your memory. Does that make sense? And so they’re like as a shift, it’s quite interesting. We can talk about it further with my therapist comes on here, but also, as John was saying, there’s a lot of thing about nurturing your inner child. So there’s things about imagining your five year old self with you and cuddling it and telling it it’s okay. And the really interesting thing is, is that sometimes when we have those awful thoughts, like I’m sure Payman, even with yourself, with your business, you’ve been like, this isn’t good enough, this isn’t this, or you have those like self doubts. A thing is would you say that to a child? The stuff, the negative stuff that you’re saying to your head? Would you say that to a child? Probably not. Just so. I mean. So really, why are you speaking to yourself in that way? So it gives you self love and compassion. Do you get what I’m saying? You know, because you wouldn’t tell a child, you’re ugly, you’re fat, you’re worthless, you’re not good enough. You’re not this, you’re not that. Do you see what I mean? But we have those conversations with ourselves now, so it’s, you know, it can be quite effective in those ways as well.

So have you got.

A teddy bear as.

Well?

I don’t have a teddy bear. I might get one. Oh, I might. I’m thinking more like a jasmine Barbie. I think that would work well for me.

Let’s do. The Disney store, you know?

Um, and, uh, mine. Mine is a big, zippy doll I found in a charity shop, Big Blue Eye. And I used to go to my local rugby team, Featherstone Rovers. I was always the match day mascot, like before a surgery and stuff. So I’ve got this little shirt that’s got the number ten on that I wore as a kid walking my favourite rugby team out and it’s become Little Jay and he’s gone to the office with me and he’s gone on road trips with me and I have hugged him and we opened up about language, talking about our own story and our own teaching talk, talking about ourselves with love. But I also used to get motivation from I used to call myself like I used to call myself horrible names to try to motivate myself. Or even when I was struggling in gym and I was struggling with those last few reps, I’d be like, I’d think about my birth parents. I know the left, you can prove them wrong. And then I’d get angry and I’d get adrenaline and then I’d get those last two reps out. And then it became the norm. If I needed a little bit of extra, I would tap into that hate and that anger. But it would long term that would drain in and it were unhealthy. Whereas now I’m like, Come on, Johnny boy, you got this. And it’s I don’t get those adrenaline spikes as intense, but it’s healthier long term.

I needed that talking to yourself. The language that you use, talking to yourself. And sometimes I see it in when you’re talking about yourself. And joking about it. Yeah. Like, just for the sake of the argument and saying, Oh, look at me. I look like whatever. Yeah, like last week. Um. The I heard someone saying like, you know, your subconscious doesn’t know you’re joking, you know, and and this is kind of speaking to that. Yeah. Yeah. It helped you with the reps, but actually it was doing more damage.

Yeah, it just became the norm. Yeah, it just became the norm. And so a few years ago on Valentine, I found myself on Valentine’s Day. A lot of things were me comes with relationships because I spent a long time wanting to be accepted. So I found myself in this relationship Valentine’s Day and writing a letter down a love poem. I love your eyes. I love your taste in music. Like all these things I loved and admired about this person. I was like, Oh my God, she’s going to love this. I can’t wait to give it to her. And she’s just going to have this big, massive smile on her face. And then I pause for a moment. I was like, Why don’t I write things that I loved and admire about myself? So I put that to one side and I started writing. It was the element of writing things that I loved and admired about myself. And I sat there and I was like And I smiled and I was like, Huh, I’m a catch. I’m a good guy, you know? And that self-love talking to yourself, writing it down has become such a game changer in my life. And now it’s become a regular practice. And in 2021, I set myself the challenge of finding something that I loved about myself every single day. And like anything, exercise or any good things that we can do, sometimes it’s hard to maintain every single day. But I got 181 things that I loved about myself from what I see to from within to experience. And I revisited all aspects of my life and I just loved who I was and I’d encourage anybody to.

I saw that list and I, I thought it was really powerful. And again, in some ways it’s it’s gratitude because it’s gratitude for the things that you love. Do you know what I mean? Your life. And it could be, as you said, gratitude for the things you can see, gratitude for the things that you can feel, gratitude for the people. So in a way, it shows also the power of the stuff. And that’s why I say, you know, all the woo woo stuff works. You know what I mean? When they say to you like, meditate, breathe, feel grateful, do the work. You know, this is stuff that absolutely does work. Yeah. So tell me, Jono, what’s the plan for the future? Where do you want to be then? Now In ten years?

In ten years I’ll be Oh God. 48 Nearly 50.

Um, welcome.

Um, I spent a long time of actually, I think that’s a really, really good question and I’m so glad you’ve asked because I think I have been so focussed on giving my inner child love. And then with the book, I’ve been so focussed on getting these book deadlines. I’m very much in the now, which is really important because last year I was like, Well, my mum’s 80th birthday and I was like, Oh my God, my mum’s 80. My first trip to Africa, the book coming out with the TV series, and I’m like, Oh my God, these are all exciting. And then I was like, Whoa, let’s appreciate them now. And but by doing that, I have not even thought about long term in the future. I guess I just want to be happy. Yeah. And surrounded by. Human beings. It’s as if I’ve got that. And don’t get me wrong, I want to be successful. I hope my my books are successful. I hope potentially I’ve got another book. I hope my charity goes from strength to strength. I hope that I’m still able to contribute in talking into schools and doing anti-bullying workshops. And so and I hope all that grows, don’t get me wrong. But for me personally, if I’m surrounded by human beings that that I can connect with on a deep, deep level, I’ve got human connection and I’m safe and I’m well emotionally and physically, then that’s I’ll take that.

That’s a good.

Place to be. And actually, in a way, I could say it was a trick question because goals are tend to have an impact on our mental health, because when we create these goals and don’t achieve them, we often don’t feel great. And actually living in the future creates anxiety. Living in the past creates depression, and living in the now is where we find our happiest.

Have you.

Read Power of.

Now? Of course. Eckhart Tolle. It’s a classic.

It’s a classic.

Book.

Yeah. It helped me so much since I read it so much.

What book was that again?

The Power of Now. Um, so bullying. I mean, bullying of children. And a lot of times it’s about how they look. You got the fat kid or the the kid that’s slightly, I don’t know, introverted.

I had really big ears.

When I was younger.

I got made fun of you.

Yeah, I was still.

No.

But the the is are there are there parallels between kids bullying each other and bullying in the workplace? I. I’d say there are. It’s like a power dynamic or whatever. Can you give me some insights on bullying that you’ve you’ve managed to Because I’m sure if you go into schools and discuss your story and and relate that to bullying, you change kids lives, for sure. Yeah. The a kid who doesn’t even know he’s a bully, he suddenly realises I’m a bully and you have to feel sorry. I find more for the bully than the one being bullied sometimes.

Oh, yeah. It’s such a complex situation, like you mentioned. Hurt people. Hurt people. And when it comes to bullying and when I talk to all the kids. They will they ask all those questions. But when we’re playing football or when I’m having lunch with them, so many of them come to me and say, I’m experiencing this form of bullying. I live with my grandma, my mom and dad do drugs and be all sharing. But there are some kids that will say, Oh, I was saying this to this person, and I didn’t even realise that that was a form of bullying or that was causing them pain. And I’m going to change. And, and even adults, even trolls have come back to me and I’ve engaged them and they’ve like, oh, I’m, I’m sorry, I didn’t, I didn’t realise that. But I’ve also been bullied. In workplace as well. Um. There’s jealousy. There is they they they were hurt people. But again, I don’t know what they were going through for them to do what they did. The only thing I control is my own reactions and how I can protect and safeguard myself. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s a tricky one, but it happens on playgrounds, in workplace, on social media, even within families. Even within relationships. Yeah. Is it a power thing? Is it control? Is it a lack of education or awareness? I guess I’m what I’m saying is it’s it’s everything.

It’s just such.

A complex issue. And actually. Well, I was having a conversation with one of my friends with a psychotherapist yesterday. We were talking about cancel culture and how effective it is, you know, people being cancelled online. And and it was a really interesting conversation that we had, which we’re not going to have now here. But ultimately it was also about. My partner was saying that cancel culture was a really good thing because people that are really harmful to people should be cancelled essentially. But my my. Yeah. So you’re not into it, right? But my psychotherapist friend was saying that she thinks it creates a totalitarian system which is basically effectively saying we need to control everything. And the speech, it’s a very tricky one, I think, because yeah, I don’t necessarily agree with cancel culture because I don’t think it’s helpful because like you said, it’s not getting to the root of the problem. Why are people behaving badly? That’s the issue. We don’t say, right, they’re done, let’s cancel this person.

I think I.

Read I, I think I read something you wrote about Clarkson. Yeah. Yeah, I think you wrote. I don’t I don’t think he should be cancelled.

No, I said, well, he said it was disgusting, but I don’t.

Think he should be.

I said cancel culture wasn’t helpful, you know. Yeah.

And I agree. I agreed with that. Yeah I, I agree with that. Yeah. In that, you know, if, if people are worried about what they’re going to say. Yeah. And if you talk to anyone these days everyone’s worried about what they’re saying then, then people won’t be able to, to progress together. Humanity won’t go forward. But then there.

Are the dangerous ones. You know, for example, when you have Kanye West creating anti-Semitic hate speech and possibly encouraging someone.

Unhinged, I think.

It’s worth it.

I think it’s worth it. Really?

Yeah. In the same way as it’s worth it to drive cars, even though some people have car crashes, you know? You know what I mean? There are there are downsides to everything but speech. Being worried about what I say. I do it all the time on this show. I worry about what I’m going to say next in case someone gets offended. I get it. I get the reason for it. But it’s going to hold us back as a as a as a society.

I the only thing I can add to this point is having a facial difference and a basic example. We used to say a disfigurement. So and again, I’ve been in many interviews where people have said, Oh, you’ve got a facial disfigurement. I could easily be offended and react differently or angrily. But it’s a simple conversation now. It’s like, Oh, it’s actual facial difference now. So I have to be able to share with you that that’s how I want or I prefer the language to be, and then you’ll be willing to say, Hey, okay, learning noted. Sure. And start using it. And so again, it’s it’s both parties being able to talk about it. I don’t want you to be scared of your language, but I want you to be.

Educated.

Open and be willing to learn.

Absolutely.

I mean, I learned something at the beginning of this talk because I use the word abandonment. And then I know noted that you had said that it’s helpful to use different language when speaking about your parents because it can trigger something. And I, I was uneducated about that. And now I’m educated and I know. And I think that that’s fair.

That’s a good.

Point. Yeah. But I’ve just learned that because I used the word, I used to say, oh yeah, I abandoned my, my parents. I used to say that. Whereas now I’m like, Oh, actually we went our separate ways. We went our separate ways. So and you know, in ten years time you asked me where I’d be in ten years time. That language, that of me sharing my story, that language I may be using in ten years time may have changed. Um, yeah.

No, I mean, look, the evolution of language is amazing. Yeah, but we were discussing cancel culture. Yeah. Where and what gets me about cancel culture is it’s almost like all different media outlets get together and decide this person’s cancelled.

Yeah, I think.

The organisation it takes for that it, it, it speaks to the fact that it is a conspiracy.

No, but the thing is. Yeah. No, but I. I do, I do.

I think it’s a complex subjects. I don’t agree with cancel culture, but I think that when you have potentially dangerous people with huge social media platforms and following they have a. Sponsibility. Because if someone like Hitler was cancelled, it would have been a good thing. Do you understand what I’m saying? Somebody that can have that much power to influence the masses and it’s dangerous. I’m not saying cancel culture, but we have to find a way to monitor, educate and sort of change the narrative as well.

So do you think like somebody like Kanye at one point, he needs to be say, hey, these are your actions, this is the impact that it’s having in a negative way. You either learn or you get cancelled.

Look, I’m not sure it’s even positive in the end. Yeah, because you cancel someone like Kanye, you end up causing a whole subculture of hate.

But at the end of the day, we all know that Kanye also, you know, he has bipolar disorder. Kanye needs help. You understand? Like he also has a medical condition and people are also abusing his medical condition, by the way, which has been a.

Having him on shows and things.

Yeah, but they’re also abusing because they’re recognising that, you know, when he professes certain views he might be in a certain state within his mind and that’s actually manipulation of media as well. It becomes a whole different conversation. So we can leave that, you know. But I have absolutely loved, loved, loved having you here. Jono, I think we’ve almost talked for two hours, by the way.

Like you’ve been such an.

Incredible human.

Being.

And all the way down from Leeds and I’m so glad that London doesn’t scare you because most people I speak to from the North are like, I hate London, I’m going back. But honestly, like you are such an amazing person, I think you’re going to really help a lot of people during this talk. And I’m you know, for one, I feel so privileged to know someone like you. So thank.

You.

Thank you for having me. And if anybody who’s listening to this does want to reach out or wants to connect, then I’m happy for you to put them in touch with myself. Um, talk about things, anything further. If they’ve got any questions, then what’s your Instagram? Jono Lancaster. Jono Lancaster.

Perfect. Last thing is I do actually ask a guest one random question off the cuff and I want you to answer. If you could go back in time, where would you go and why?

If I could go back in time personally or in person?

No. Well, it could be. Could be anywhere. You could go back to the 1950s, the 20s. You could go back a particular time in your life. It’s open.

I would love to go back.

Are.

I would love to go back to the 90s so I am the music, you know.

Best hip hop era. I’m here.

For it.

Um, you know, so not so obviously. I grew up listening to Puff Daddy as he was back then. Um, and then you had Tupac and Biggie, but then you also had the 90s dance music. Then you had also the Oasis and the Blur.

Um, even the old man.

Remembers Music.

Was good in the night.

Yeah.

Um, and then the obviously the Euro 96, that was the first big football tournament that I kind of recognised and loved. But during the 90s I wasn’t Jonathan. I wasn’t gonna where I am today. I know we can say that about ourselves, but I lived a good chunk of the 90s. Just been very fake. And I would love to have experienced the 90s being my authentic self.

Amazing.

And yeah, I would love to experience.

I’ll see you there.

I love that era. Perfect. Thank you so much.

My pleasure.