Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. Today we have the Queen of podcasting and I am so, so excited to have actually my first female guest. I know that we’re not necessarily doing it in chronological order, but I’m going to tell everyone because you are my first choice. You are amazing. Shivani Shivani and I first met at an event, a well-being event, which is very topical for this podcast. So in essence, I explained to Shivani that this podcast is all about talking about mental health but giving actionable points for people to do. And I think that, you know, you’ve mastered that. I know it’s always work in progress, but I really want the audience to take away something from you today and all the guests that we’ve had. So I’m actually going to let you do your introduction, because I think what blew what blew my mind so much is that you were working in a corporate arena. You decided to go in a completely different direction. You stuck to it, and now you are becoming one of the most popular podcasters, especially the most one of the most popular female podcasters, which is really, you know, close to me. Sorry. But, you know, there’s very few women that are paving the way within the podcast industry. So do you want to tell us a little bit about what your job was and how you ended up doing what you’re doing? First of all.

Thank you for having me, Rona. You are, I think, just as equally as highly of you. I think you’re amazing and so lovely to meet you as well. So essentially, I started as a management consultant. And I’ll tell you, my, my, my story. I was a lawyer. I say a lawyer. I studied law at Warwick and I hated it. I never felt good enough. And Warwick was an environment where everyone was so obsessed with education, very by the book, you know, memorise everything. And I was never that kind of person, even in school, studied law and then thought, What the hell am I going to do now? So I applied for a grad scheme at an energy company and there I did one rotation, which was around transformation. And automatically I thought, Wow, this is amazing. This is interesting. I moved to London because that job was in Nottingham and I got into management consulting. And you know, a lot of the time we all want to see change within ourselves and change with other people because I really believe that if you influence someone to change for the better, you you feel amazing because you’ve helped someone. And so that’s what drew me to being a change consultant because I felt like I could help people. And when I was at the energy company, I was helping people every day. And it was such a powerful position to be in because I was like, This is a corporate role and I get to influence and help the way people think around certain things.

And I hated it when I came to London because it was very corporate, surrounded by red tape doing the same thing over and over again. And, you know, I was just telling the story today. My Auntie Reshma Saujani was the is the kind of person who’s paved the way for me because without her, I wouldn’t have been able to do any of this. I met her at a lunch that my mom forced me to go to. Yeah, she inspired me so much because we don’t see and especially for me, I didn’t see an Indian woman that was so powerful, inspiring, and owned the room. I hadn’t seen Indian women like that. A lot of people within my community, their housewives or their husbands, are the main breadwinners. And so the women are always overlooked. They don’t pay for things. They’re not the ones who, you know, dominate that room. So when I saw her, I thought, oh, my God, you’re amazing. I would love to be like you. Yeah. And then, coincidentally, that summer, I’ve never been to New York. That summer I was going to New York and she lives there and she was doing a podcast and she was doing an a podcast in a room like this. And every podcast I was watching at the time was Jay Shetty, Tom Bilyeu, Lewis House, massive production teams. Yeah. And in that moment I thought, What? I could do this. Yeah. So why can’t I? And we went for dinner that day and I said I was telling her about all these ideas and I came up with the Indian problem and I thought, That’s a bit negative, isn’t it? And I’m, I get really executed on that and everyone’s going to be like, You hate being Indian, which is not the case.

But what I really wanted to do was bring my personality to it. And as a young girl, I’ve always been someone who’s challenged taboos. I’ve always asked why a million times. I’ve always questioned the way in which we do things. And so what I realised was a common theme was breaking down different stereotypes and taboos is what I wanted to do. And then one day when I was on a run, I kept thinking, Millennial, millennial, and I thought, I don’t know what I want to do. And then I thought, Millennial mind, yeah, just came to me and I started the podcast, just audio. And I would go to people’s houses, take my £50 camera, borrow my £50 microphone, borrow my friend’s camera and record it like an honestly just shambolic yeah, balance it on several books that they had in their house or in a vase or a table or something. And I sat on the episode for six months and any time anyone starts something, there’s always this massive fear that comes about. And that’s what happened to me. Anyway. Fast forward two and a half years later and now you’ve invited me to be on your podcast. So here we are.

Well, this is not quite this is actually Payman podcast. And they have they have lots of subscribers for this. But I think the main thing for me was and Shivani, I’ve been so lucky to now call you a friend because I think we’ve known each other for a while now and I’m like, She’s so great and so inspiring. And you know, with Payman, I said to him again, I like to. Challenge. Taboos and stigmas and dentistry, as you know, has the highest suicide rate of any profession. People are too afraid to talk about it, and dentists are really scared of being vulnerable, and they often suffer in silence and they find it really difficult to talk about the issues. And I said to Payman, Do you know what? Let’s just screw this. Let’s talk about it. Let’s really bring on guests that are inspiring and successful and have had their own struggles and issues. We can talk about it now. A few things about what you said that I want to just delve into further. You obviously said that you come from an Asian background and that’s actually like the majority of dentists.

I’d say about 80 or 90%. Yeah, yeah. Doctors and dentists. Yeah, exactly. And often a lot of them end up in the profession. But the funny thing is that you said is that within your community, a lot of women would have the more kind of subdued careers like being, I don’t know, housewife, etcetera. But interestingly enough, what we see in dentistry is that they choose medicine because their parents want them to become a doctor or a dentist. In fact, even from Middle Eastern background, it was like, that’s all you could do. But a lot of them aren’t happy because they feel that the profession really isn’t their calling. Now, I’m not encouraging people to sort of like just, you know, completely go against their family and so forth. But do you find that a challenge going against your own family saying like, you know, I trained to be a lawyer, but I’m going to become like, do this whole podcast thing. And obviously that generation are like, what on earth is like a podcaster?

Of course, my parents still to this day want me to go back to my corporate role. They’ll tell me till the day I die. Probably. My dad ideally wanted me to be a lawyer. I studied at Warwick. He was so proud of me. And then I come out and I’m like, I’m going to go work at an energy company. Even though it was Ian, he was still like, What are you doing? Despite that, when I got the job in London and I was a consultant when I was working there, I never felt the sense of purpose. Right? I was just, what am I doing all the time? And for him he was saying, but you’re safe. You have a job. No one likes their job. Get on with it. Now, the thing I want to encourage people to do is never to quit and to just not have a plan. You know, it doesn’t work out for a lot of people that way. It’s really important to first figure out what you want to do. So one of the things that I started doing when I was working was modelling, and I thought I would like it because I’m very creative. I thought, you know, it’d be nice to get dressed up. I hated it. And I actually posted about this. If you scroll down on my page, I’ve always talked around mental health and I talked about the time where I’d quit my job, sorry, I’d moved from Ian to to London and I had like a three week, three month off when I took a sabbatical essentially because they gave me voluntary redundancy. So I thought, I want to travel now. In this time I was travelling the world by myself and I was modelling full time.

When I came back to the UK, I was deeply unhappy and I spoke about it. I said, Everyone is looking at my life. I’ve been to Japan, Hong Kong, all of these amazing countries, the Philippines and now I’m modelling full time and everyone thinks I’m really happy. I’ve never felt more low and I’ve always been really transparent about that. And what my point is, is it’s really important to try new things while you’ve got something safe, while you’ve got something safe. Explore. And this is where I think there’s a little bit of this toxic work culture vibe, which I’m not really in tune with if I’m completely honest. In order to do something different, you have to work hard. And in order to want to be successful in something, there are going to be moments and periods in your life where you have to work hard. I’m not saying you have to work 15 hours a day for the rest of your life, but when you want to change something, something has to sacrifice. Now, if that can’t be your salary, if you’re not in a fortunate position where you can just let go of your role or go part time or something, then what you have to do is your evenings and your weekends. You need to explore what you want to try, but how do you do that? What do you enjoy? What are your strengths? Where are you envious? I always tell people to start with that. Where are you feeling? Oh, I wish I could do that. So, course she’s doing that. Well, you can.

Why I love.

That. If you’re looking at someone online and thinking, God, I’m so jealous that she gets to speak in front of all these people, you might not get to speak in front of 300 people right now, but you can. But what can you do? You can go on your Instagram and you can speak to the 400 people you have as your followers, the ten followers you have. Grow, grow, be more confident. Someone’s going to notice you and say, Come on. I had no idea that I could do corporate workshops from my podcast. Tsb, McKinsey and Co, Red Sky. All these companies are reaching out and saying, Can you come and speak at our organisations? But how did I do that from focusing on the thing that I loved?

But do you know what that reminds me of? And I didn’t know if you know this, but I’m one of Stephen Bartlett’s most recent podcast. He actually spoke about Shivani. She’s laughing because she remembers this bit because it was quite a big moment, because he was like he saw the kind of courage and gumption that she embodied. And she literally, you know, had just started out and she was like, Hey, will you come on my podcast? You know, you can go further into the story. And he was like, I just couldn’t believe the confidence she had. And of course, I had to say yes, you know, And she didn’t really have a question.

She asked the question. Yeah, Um, it’s funny, the the reason why we don’t ask the question. For me. I’ve been around lots of super influential people. I’ve got some best friends who I should ask some questions of. Yeah. Billionaire guy could invest invest in this. Known me since I was 11, but I haven’t asked the question. It comes down to I don’t want to be the guy who asks that question sometimes, you know, and it’s and it and it comes over to the final. The final analysis is, is that fear of being judged for being the guy rejection. Well well being the guy who if I if I met Steven Bartlett, I’d like not to be the guy who asked the question. And yet asking that question changed your career. And so it’s a funny balance.

It’s tricky because the only thing that’s stopping you from asking the question is ego, because you’re you feel embarrassed. That’s why you don’t want to ask, right, to your billionaire friend to invest in this. You probably feel I don’t want to ask him cause I don’t want him to think I’m leeching off him or, you know, or I feel a bit nervous of what he’ll say. But that’s our ego. When Steven said that, he said to me, There’s two things that could have happened. You would have been in the exact same position if you didn’t ask the question the exact same right. He said you would have maybe got an ego dent. If I had said no, but you would have remained the same. But by asking, This is where you got. And you know, it’s not as easy to say, just ask your friends for favours. I still struggle to ask my friends for favours, right? Because it’s an ego thing. I feel bad. But what we need to remember is that if we don’t ask, if we don’t ask the question, we’re never going to know the answer. It’s a no. The answer is a no. But whether you ask it or.

Not, my motto in life actually is completely different. I say, you don’t ask, you don’t get. Yes, agree. And I remember ages ago.

You treat these celebrities. Yeah, Yeah. Do you say to them, hey, can I go? Can I do a selfie with you right now?

No, no. But I also do find there’s an element of things being a little bit tacky where I’m like. And I also do believe that, you know, it’s different because when you’ve got that relationship with the doctor, you are also going to them for different reasons. There’s consent, there’s confidentiality. You know, we are accountable for the things that we’re doing. So I’m not like a random person, so they’re trusting me with a part of their body. I don’t feel it’s appropriate. Now. A lot of dentists do, and they’re like, Oh, can I do this? Can I do this? And I actually find it quite cringe. So unless they say to me, Oh, I really want like, would you want to do part collaboration, etcetera, I’ve got some, I’ve got some people on the books that no, I have had to even sign NDAs, you know, to say that I’m treating them. So I think there’s that. But it also reminds me. So one of the things that happened is that when I started looking at Shivani’s page and being I was like, Oh my God, she’s so impressive. And it was the way that she spoke. It’s her confidence. It’s her ability to relate to human beings. It’s the empath that we talked about, and I see that in myself as well. And I remember she saw me post about one of my best friends who’s incredibly influential, inspiring. She was like, Oh, I’d love to have her on the podcast. And I said, No problem at all. Spoke to that best friend, got them linked together, and then a couple of months later, Shivani is like, You know, I’ve been meaning to ask you, will you come on my podcast? And honestly, I was like a little girl. I was like a ten year old girl because I was like, I matter. I was like at that moment.

What’s really important to know is I didn’t know Rhona very well. I met her once. I had met you once. At that point. It’s actually that week. I saw you at the gym. Yeah. Afterwards. Yeah. But I think what’s really key to know is that’s not. I didn’t say to you, Rhona, can you get me on her podcast? I said I would love to have her on my podcast, which is a genuine thing. I said, I would love to have her if maybe I said to Rhona, Please, can you get me on her podcast? Rhona, I don’t even know you. You probably would have helped me. But you know, it’s the way you approach a conversation and a lot of the time what you just touched on before is mutual benefit. Yeah. So if someone comes to you with part collaboration, they’re getting a benefit and therefore you’re getting a benefit by posting them. There’s a mutual benefit. Yeah. Let’s say for your billionaire friend, what is that mutual benefit? You believe in the vision and the mission of this company to grow. And we believe that your expertise and your strengths are going to help us. That’s why I’m coming to you, not as a handout. And it’s all about looking at that value.

I was just about to say the V word. Yeah, it’s value. It’s value. And I was just saying. So just before this, I was in a meeting with Invisalign actually with my reps, you know, Invisalign, the brand. And they said to me, I was talking about lecturing and so forth and like how people are paid different amounts in different countries. And they were like, Oh, but like, is it the money thing for you that would drive you? You know, they want me to do public speaking. I said, It’s not about money, but it’s about value. And I was like, I also am a stage in my dental career that if an influencer approaches me and is like, I want to be treated for free immediately, I say no, regardless of who they are. Because I’m like, You don’t value me and not valuing me annoys me. Does that make sense? You know, and that’s better than the conversation of them being like, Can I book in for a concert? And then being like, That was great. How do you want to do this? Do you want to do? Because then they’re offering me something. And that’s the thing. I think as human beings we like to feel valued and that’s why dentistry is so hard for so many people because people walk into the room and go, No offence, but I hate dentists before you’ve even sat them.

It’s putting a block.

Yeah, it’s a block. So there’s, there’s the real sense, I think, of being undervalued as health care professionals within the medical sector.

Before we go any further, though, I hate dentists means I am very scared of dentists, of.

Course, but they don’t hear that.

They the dentists didn’t hear that. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. They don’t.

Hear that.

I’m I’m scared is what their patient saying.

Because they haven’t had a good experience so they don’t feel comfortable being in an environment.

Shivani, I’m interested in your move away from your day job. Yeah. And your drive. So, I mean, I, I told you I listened to that episode that you did where you went month by month, what I did that month, and I suddenly realised I’m not working at all.

Um, she made me feel like that. Imagine how hard I work. And then I had her planner, I had her, I had her, you know, I have her planner, and I was writing everything and I was like, oh my gosh, like this girl. I see how her mind works now. You know.

There was there’s a bit in that that she literally just, just just out of tiredness just dies, you know, just. Just out of tiredness. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes three, four days of sleep to to recover. You know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been there. I’ve been there. But I’ve been there not because of work long. It’s been a he’s a.

Party boy.

Hahaha.

I’ve been there because of work. Yeah. Then I thought back and I thought at the beginning when I was doing everything myself and by the way, your story screams out employ, hire. Yes, I need to hire. I need to. I don’t delegate. I don’t know if you’ve got enough money coming in in order to do that or.

Whatever it is. I want to.

Touch on that, that there comes a moment where oh and continuously moments where you need to hire. That’s true. You know, I.

Know I say that every day.

I’m like doing everything yourself is a brilliant thing that you have to learn so that when you hire, you can speak their language, right? Sometimes I’ve hired social media agency to do adverts for me and they they become guzzled me with their words. I mean, if you don’t know what a what a lookalike audience is, they’ll say, Oh, we’ll put a lookalike audience on here. You have no idea what that is. If you don’t know what reach is, if you don’t know what cost per impression is, you know, any of that stuff. So and I didn’t. And I spent thousands, wasted thousands. But now that you’ve been in the trenches and you know every little part of it. Yeah. Hire. And when you hire, you’ll see the quality will go down. Yes. Compared to you doing it yourself.

Scarce and watching her others.

I’ve hired and I’m literally like, What are you doing?

The quality will go down. Yeah. Unless you’re very lucky. Yeah. And then the skill of, you know, why does Stephen Bartlett sell his company for 100 million? The, the skill is to then put that passion into those people. It’s true.

Training them.

Sharing a vision. I think that’s the thing.

It is really difficult. I mean, you know, managing everything yourself comes with a lot of joy because you’re doing it and it’s coming out of pure passion. And I think that’s how I’m able to to drive myself to work really hard. But, you know, I never worked hard when I was younger in school, when I did my law degree, when I was at Ian, when I was at Atos, I wasn’t a hard worker. And finally when I had my podcast, I worked so hard and I was so happy that finally I wanted to do that. And everyone at work used to always say to me, You’re so strategic. You’re never in the detail, you know, at work. I used to I used to do well, but I was never the best. And now I’m like, I can be the best in this. And that’s what pushed me away from my corporate role. I had to make a decision.

But sorry to interrupt, but talking about motivation. Okay. Do you want the best podcast in the world and you enjoy doing this? Yes, I get those two things. Yeah. But what’s the agenda of the podcast? I mean, what’s the motivation? Is there is it that you’re trying to change the narrative around conversations around millennials?

There is no better feeling in the world than feeling inspired. There’s nothing that will drive you, make you smile on your face, make you go on with your day. When you meet someone and you feel, Wow, they inspired me. And what I wanted to do was bring those conversations to light every single day for people. Because the thing is, when you’re going through something, you’re going through a tough time. And mental health runs through the podcast in every single episode. There’s an element of it. And the reason why I’ve got such a broad podcast and it’s there’s not a niche and everyone told me to get a niche. But the reason why there’s not is because we all face different problems and often the people within our circle don’t face those exact same problems. Now when you’re going through a tough time, what’s the number one thing you feel?

Alone.

There we go. You feel alone, and the only person that’s going to help you feel less alone is someone who’s been through exactly it. And I go through the podcast and I will share. Like with Rona, I struggled in school. I worked my ass off. I became a dentist. After that, I struggled with my application. I persisted. I persisted. I persisted. I saw this revenue. I got my practice Covid hit. Then what did you do? Someone going through that at the moment is going to listen to her and think she did it. I can do it. She did it. I can do it. This is what she did. These were her tactics. They’re not going to work exactly the same. The pandemic isn’t hitting, but I’m getting really low reach. I’m losing loads of staff. What do I do? Okay, reinvent myself. How can I do this, this and this? And they’ve got Rhona’s blueprint. And there’s thousands of conversations like that.

And I totally agree with that. And the thing is, is this is why we have been so inspired to have these conversations, because Payman, up until now has been interviewing dentists. Yet dentists contact me every single day and say, But what helped you? What inspired you? And I’m like listening to non dentists reading books from Jack Canfield. You know, we’ve spoken about this. Tony Robbins. Robbins. Robbins, Yeah, yeah. And like, listening to those people that, you know, came from really difficult backgrounds the gutter, the struggles, the failures. And then they managed to overcome it. And I learned from them because these are life skills and inspiring stories that you can apply to your everyday life.

And not everyone has to come from the gutter. I remember I interviewed this lady from Mumbai. She has her own brand, Papa Don’t Preach, just one of the most famous brands in India. And she said, I had I had privilege. My dad bought me my shot. My dad invested in my company. But she said, What did I do with that privilege? I’ve employed thousands of people. She said, Even though one of my brands is so famous, it’s like I don’t know how to describe it, she said. There’s still months. I don’t make money. People and everyone who listened to that episode was like, You are joking. It’s like Dolce Gabbana coming out and saying, There’s some months we don’t make money. And being vulnerable and sharing those moments with other people allows them to relate with you and it allows them to make a change. And if someone makes a change according to your story or someone else’s story, there’s there’s no greater feeling than that in the world.

Do you know what I want to strip back again to privilege? Because I think that’s also an important point actually. Payman I think you were the one that first said it to me a few years ago because I think I was feeling a little bit bitter and perhaps a bit jealous in hindsight of something or someone. And you said to me, but even if they did have everything handed on the plate, that doesn’t mean that they don’t have the right to be successful. Correct. And that really resonated. I was like, you know what? You’re right. Because we cannot control what circumstances we are born in, right? Like sometimes people have really privileged parents. Some people don’t.

We all have our own level of privilege. By the way, every single person on this planet has some level of privilege, whether that’s you’re living in your parents home, whether that’s your parents sent you to a decent school, whether that’s your parents, helped you with your university, whether that’s your parents gave you food when you came home from school. Thousands of children don’t have school meals. They don’t have the ability to learn the way that some people do. Everyone has their own level of privilege. Yet we’re so quick to judge someone. Exactly. If they if they’ve been brought up with a little bit of money or if their parents have invested. Correct. What are they meant to do? If my dad is a billionaire and let’s say I got a podcast studio, for example, in London, then great, I’ve done something with that privilege. He isn’t. So I have to build. It doesn’t mean I don’t have some level of privilege.

Exactly.

I think the podcast was was very good because he’s the son of the king. Kingfisher. Do you know that brand? The big.

Of course.

Of course. Yeah. And I mean, I hate to say that because. Because the whole podcast was about him. Yeah.

How he lives in his shadows.

Yeah, but. But my billionaire friend is a billionaire son. And I’ve watched him. I’ve same, same struggle.

And it’s hard for them because if your parents are so well off and so successful, anything you do.

It’s because of.

That to say, it’s because of that. But people love to blame your success on something that they cannot achieve. So Rona, you’re only successful because of this. The only person that I get.

That all the time.

Of course you do it. Of course you would. Because once you get one celebrity client, like with Steven Bartlett, everyone will say, I’m only successful because of him. My profile didn’t increase my. The credibility was really important for me. I had 6000 followers when I was in LA. I had 6000 followers when I left. He never posted our podcast on Instagram. The only reason my podcast blew up was in July when I was talking about marriage. But still, I remember that day. Everyone will say everyone forgets April till July is a very long time. Everyone will say, Well, Steven, Steven blew up your blew up your no, no, no. But it’s easy for people to say that because they’re like, What? I’m not going to get Steven so I can’t achieve that. Shravani So what you’ve done is unachievable for me and you have that privilege, but it’s a way for people to justify their actions.

Because both of you are famous enough that every time you put something out, there’s going to be, let’s say, 50 plus good comments and let’s say five bad comments. Yeah, And I understand what happens when you get a bad By the way, I’m not famous enough for that. Right?

He’s really famous.

In the Dental world. I don’t I don’t I don’t get any hate in either direction. I don’t get loads of love either. Yeah, I’ll give you.

I’ll give you love. Yeah, I’ll give you love. We love you. Pay.

I get love I get love face to face love. Some people say I’ve listened to the podcast. Loads of people do that and that’s interesting. It’s interesting. Yeah. Um, but I understand when you get hate, how that feels and how you have to deal with that. Yeah, it’s a complex subject, Yes, but there’s no way around it. Either ignore it or feel sorry for the person.

I’ve just learned to block it out now, have you? I actually don’t care anymore.

I don’t want to talk about hate. I don’t want to talk about hate. Yeah, because we talk about hate too much. No, no, no, no. I want to talk about the love side. When you. When you get loads of love, is that like the driver?

It’s not.

It must be. Because you know what?

You know what? I can. It’s easy for me to say that now. But remember that for two years I barely got love. No one would reshare my post. I used to get maybe 17 likes. That’s me now. 17 likes on my podcast. No one would share. No one would share. But the driver is when I sit down and have these conversations. How I feel after is I was just.

About to say so.

Empowering. I feel so inspired and that other person feels the same so that energy would last me through it. And I used to always say at work I would record one podcast a week, so I’d feel really energetic. Then I would edit it two days later again for all the energy, and then I would feel like, Oh God, this is so difficult. I’d put it out and I’d feel so crap. No one would. No one would like it. No one would share it. And then again I would record it. So it was like an up and down balance. But the podcast kept me going because I knew from a young age I was able to have those conversations because for some reason when I was younger, people always used to open up to me just randomly. I went to get my eye surgery once and the guy took me in the room and said, Just wanted to let you know that, you know, I don’t enjoy working here and told me all the stuff. Two weeks later they went bankrupt and he already told me that two weeks before. And I was thinking, Why have you just told me I’m a random like customer.

But you have that. But you know what’s so funny that you said that? Because exactly how I felt like after I did Shivani’s podcast and even when I did the first one with you and Prav, it’s that energy you feel and I’m sure you get that. And the thing is, it’s that whole bad thing. Like we were talking about another podcast about connection. It’s all about that connection because human beings are all connected and that important importance of that interaction. The other thing is as well is that it it is what fuels you and it is passion because if you came dragging your feet being like, Oh, I got to record another podcast and today I can’t be bothered. And but it’s the same with like dentistry in the sense that like I really love it. Like yesterday, like every single time I finish a smile makeover and the patient’s happy, It’s just, it’s. It’s just priceless. The way you feel really good because you’re giving something to someone they’re receiving. And that energy cycle is just really powerful, I think, you know, and that’s what it’s all about, finding that what you’re passionate about. Question Is, though, so we already discussed that with your family. They were like, No, you’re going to go back to this, but what gave you the strength to listen to your own inner voice? And I think that people find that really difficult, right? Like, they know it’s that gut feeling thing, right? Your gut is your second brain. You’re like, I’m in the wrong job. This isn’t for me. But having the courage to leave that security.

I haven’t told a lot of people this, but I took a sabbatical, so when I had my job, I thought, you know what? I just released the planner and I just thought, let me just take a sabbatical. So for three months, I asked work for a sabbatical. And in that time I achieved nothing, absolutely nothing. I thought I’d start my coaching. I was already so I was coaching. I had the planner, I had the podcast, and I thought, I just need time to figure out what I’m going to do. And I’m being completely honest. I did a course. I tried to do loads of different things. I achieved absolutely nothing. And at the end of that I still thought, I can’t go back, I can’t go back. And I remember my mum and dad, My dad wasn’t really talking to me at this point. And I remember, you know, just thinking, Well, I have to go back because I’m not making any money. I don’t have a bloody plan. I’ve still got 3000 followers. Nothing. Nothing’s happening. I went back and my dad was like, I’m really proud of you. And so he instilled that in me to go back to work. I’m proud of you for going back to your job and making the right decision. So then it was in March when I said to myself, I’m going to give it one more shot and I’m going to just get a studio now with the studio.

What was different about that? It was this more aesthetically pleasing to watch, and I could cut up the clips and put them on the social media. So it was attracting more. So what I was seeing from there was more and more and more attraction. Now, at this point, bear in mind, I had my job I’d used every single day of annual leave to go on my podcast, and I only had six days of annual leave left and we were in August. So I was thinking, what am I going to do now? You know, having the right people around you is the most important thing. And my boyfriend is an entrepreneur himself. He comes from a family of entrepreneurs. And he always said to me, Just quit your job. Quit your job, Quit your job. You’ll find out away. My mum and dad are like, You’re not married. You don’t have a house. What are you going to do? You’re not going to be able to get a mortgage. So I had these conflicting views, but there was a difference. I’d be at my job and I’d be presenting, and then I’d get invited to McKinsey and I would shine and everyone would be clapping and all the comments would be like, amazing. And then I’d go to my job in a room like this and I’d present and everyone would be like.

Yeah.

And I remember thinking, My God, this is so ridiculous that I’m focusing eight hours of my day on this when I actually have different income streams. Now I have my workshop, I have my planner, I have the podcast, and I have my Instagram. So why can I not expand these four revenue streams? I’ve already got proof of concept. How can I expand? And I didn’t quit. I kept going with my with my podcast. And when my video went viral, when I was getting loads and loads of people interested, at that point I realised I have two choices. Do I want to be the number one podcaster or do I want to be a number one consultant and a partner? And I realised I wanted to be a number one podcaster and my mum always said to me. Just do it. It’s only a year. Now, the reason why people are scared is because they don’t have a plan and they don’t have a goal and they’re not specific enough. So I had to tell myself, okay, my privilege is I live at home, right? So my expenses are my studio and my expenses would be other things. But I live a very simple life and I don’t go out that much. I don’t spend a lot of money on things, and I’m going to sacrifice that because I know that every bit of money I get will go into the podcast with the editing, with the studio, whatever. So I had two choices.

I thought, okay, this is what I want to do. So now let me think of a plan. And I thought, okay, I can. As my followers are growing, I can make money from Instagram. These are the sponsors I want to work with. This is how I think the planner is going to grow. And I came up with all of these different solutions and I worked out that actually had different revenue streams like my corporate workshops. I was more confident now bigger corporates were reaching out to me. I can charge a little bit more and that will fill the money. And as long as I was making enough to survive, then I was like, That will be okay. And I gave myself one year. I said to my parents, I’m going to do it for one year. And my dad was very unhappy with me. He didn’t really speak to me. He was like, Do whatever you want and care, whatever. Yeah. But my mum was like, Just do it for a year and see how it goes. I have never worked harder in my whole life and I’ve lost loads of weight. I’m really stressed, but I’ve never been happier. I never have been happier. And I always say to people, taking the risk is the scariest thing, but you know that you’re taking you’re taking an even bigger risk by not focusing on what you love. Yeah, it’s an even bigger risk.

Couple of things. I mean, when I when I was a dentist, full time dentist and then and then it was like four days a week, three days a week, two days, one day a week. So what you were saying and then they came the point of stopping altogether and it was a bit difficult that you sort of define yourself by your job and all of that. But I had this moment of clarity when I realised that if this project fails, I can go back and be a dentist.

Exactly.

And there’s.

Millions of jobs.

In the world if if that project, if your podcast project had failed, you’re to become a management consultant tomorrow. You can and, and earn a good living and an ambitious life and so forth. Yeah. Um, so anyone who’s thinking of making a jump, especially a dentist, especially especially a dentist, because you can you can cut down your days, you can increase your days, you can leave it, you can come back to it. And I think. But sorry, how how are you now defining success?

If I’m if I’m going to be completely honest, I define success, I think, by money. And I think the reason I do that is because growing up as a woman, I was never told that I would be someone who would be a breadwinner. I was never told that I could be someone, that I could earn a lot of money, probably 60, 70 K if I was amazing. That was my cap earning £60,000, £70,000, which is a lot of money, I just want to say. But that was like dream big, ballpark figure. Yeah. And now I don’t have fear about that. I’m very I’m very, I guess, confident that one day I will. But I see myself at the moment as, you know, not as successful. Everyone thinks I’m killing it because I’ve got loads of followers and I’ve got all these false measures of success, but I’m like, Well, I’m not, you know, I haven’t got my own studio and I haven’t got a whole team. And to fuel all those things, you need money. And it’s not like I think that’s the definition of success, by the way. I think that at that point I would think, okay, well, there’s something else that’s probably my next milestone.

I think my definition of success is, I guess actually to reword the question is just being happy every day, doing what I love. And it’s so powerful to wake up every day and think, this is what I get to do. Last week, I interviewed two of my most dream guests, and I did a Ted Talk on Saturday. I mean, I at the start of the week, I was thinking I would have dreamed about this and I quit my job six months ago, and now I get to live my dream week. This is the life. And it’s not about money to to for me to live in a fancy house and for me to push. I really want to just make the podcast the best ever. So if I can get a studio with crazy lights and crazy backgrounds and seven people running the audio and visuals and cutting up the clips, that to me will be amazing because that way we’re reaching millions and billions of people right now. We’re reaching the hundreds of thousands. I want to reach even more.

To be honest with you as well. I always say that money does buy freedom. It may not buy happiness, but it does buy freedom. And it helps with choices. You see the tools. So yeah, like you said, it’s the ability to have a team. It’s the ability to focus on the things that you want to, because I think the money thing is a dangerous slippery slope because if we continuously define that as being the ultimate success, when is enough? You hit a million, then you want 10.

To.

2 years.

In two years.

In, Yeah. I mean, we made massive losses for four years. Yeah.

Everyone says.

Massive losses. Everyone says that houses were on the line. Yeah. Credit cards. Putting credit cards into our own machine. Yeah. To to just stay afloat.

I know.

If you feel if you’re calling it a business, it’s it’s weird because it’s art. Yes, it’s a business.

It’s you can get a university degree now in podcasting. You know that? Of course.

Of course. Yeah. It’s a business because it makes money, right? Yeah. And it’s got.

But you know, for instance, this podcast, we advertise on many podcasts, but we don’t allow advertising on this podcast, right? Yeah, because this, this isn’t our business. This isn’t our primary business. Um, not saying I won’t. Not. Yeah, of course, but, but the, the point, the point I’m trying to make is that you’re very, very early on. Yeah. Everyone always tells me of success in the first two years. I mean, if you saw me two years in, I know it’s a different thing. It’s a product and all of that. Yeah, we were in massive trouble. Like, massive trouble. And, you know, you’ve got to sort of think to yourself of if you do get those staff and you get the cameras and you get the the the most important thing is still the conversations.

Oh, 100%. I think maybe I didn’t wear that in the right way because what I mean by.

It’s just working less.

Hard of this business is that at the moment I have to go to the studio and record and press the buttons and check the lighting and check everything. I have to carry four bags with me.

I’ve seen her in action.

I yeah, she’s seen me. I wear like different clothes to the podcast because I’m sweating because I’m running from one meeting to the other. I then go back and I have to mark every single second of that podcast for TikTok, for YouTube shorts.

For YouTube.

Long form for Instagram, and then for LinkedIn. So if I had the resources to do that, it would make my life a lot easier and I would be able to churn more and more and more. My my vision would be to do this every day. But at the moment, everything is slow because I have to do it all myself because I don’t have those funds and pay.

It’s like you, for example, like imagine cutting the whitening trays, making the gels like. Do you see what I mean? Like.

Well, I was there, right? Yeah, of.

Course, of course. But we all were. We all were, you know, like, you know, we all, we all were when we were building that. But I think success is a funny one because I think ultimately most people, some people massively define it by just finances. But you used a really important work, which she said was happiness and happiness means different things to different people. And I think there’s no shame in saying like, I’ll be happy if I’m financially comfortable and secure, you know what I mean?

So you don’t we don’t all need to have this goal of being a billionaire. That is not my goal. Yeah, it’s absolutely not my goal. I don’t care. But even if.

It if it was, there’s no shame in it.

Even if you want to drive, like work really hard to be a billionaire because you want to provide for loads of different people. Amazing. Or if you want to just sit in a mansion by yourself and enjoy your life. £500 gold coffee every day. Amazing. So happy for you. Yeah. We can all have our own. We can all have our own goals.

Yeah.

And I think that there’s just this. There’s also this thing around, like, money shouldn’t be a goal. I definitely think it should be a goal for people because it gives you the opportunity and the freedom to do things that perhaps you don’t get the opportunity to do because you’re limited by that. And that doesn’t mean you should ever chase the money. When I started this podcast, I didn’t know you could make money. I had no idea I did it as a passion project. Everyone told me, You know, you never make any money from it. Yeah, it’s just a hobby. And I said, Yeah, I know. I’m not trying to make any money from it. I’m just enjoying myself. And even to this day, people say, you know, why haven’t you got a sponsor? I’m just enjoying myself and I’m not going to jump on the bandwagon and get three K from a random sponsor I don’t believe in. I’m just not going to do it.

It has to be aligned with your values again.

Exactly.

Shivani the the video that went viral, actually, that was the first time that I came. I mean, I met you at the Salters event, but the video caught my eye. So in short, Payman this video.

Why aren’t you married yet?

Yes. Did you see.

It? No, I.

And this is something that I massively resonate with as well because I think as a strong, empowered females, it’s really difficult because people are so quick to ask that question When are you going to get married? Why aren’t you married? And then when you get married still it’s the thing. It’s the.

Thing. I know people ask the question because, you know, if I’m wearing an orange tie, people will say, Hey, nice tie. It doesn’t mean they like my tie. It’s it’s the elephant. And there’s.

More is what it.

Is. This is what it is. Of course, people are very rare. It’s very rare that if a young man walks in here, the first question you would say is, when are you getting married?

So what? The questions are different for men and women.

So what are what would be the standard question for men, though?

What’s your job? What’s your next job?

But I get asked that all the time. I think. I think the thing is.

I think he likes to challenge.

No, I like it.

I like it. I think I’m open to it. Bring it on. I’m joking.

I think the thing is, is women are are told that their goal in life is to be married. Right. And whether whether you whether you agree with it or not, for a lot of women the first when when I was younger it was you need to learn how to cook and clean. When you get married, you need to be subservient because when you get married, that narrative is fed to several women. And when you’re not married as a woman and you’re a strong like Rona and I, people are like, Bloody hell, what’s.

Wrong, you two? No wonder you’re not married. You know.

It’s that constant narrative and I don’t publicise my relationship with social media. Neither do you. And we don’t feel this justification to do that. And I think that this. Constant question of why you’re asking me when I’m getting married. I even said it’s not coming from a bad place. In the video, what I said was, is when you’re constantly asking someone, When are you getting married and getting married, you don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors. It’s the same question as when couples get married and they’re trying for kids. You don’t know if they’ve had a miscarriage. And all you’re saying is when you’re having kids. And the reason why we do that is because we all think there’s one particular path to follow in life. When you get go to school, get married, have kids. So when you’re married and you don’t have children, I get there’s no bad intention, but we should be more conscious as a society.

Language to.

Think about. Perhaps someone has just had a miscarriage.

I’m not saying people will ask and you need to just lump it. I’m not. I am saying that. I am saying that for for day to day. Yeah. And I’m sure you understand that. Yeah, I.

Get what you’re saying.

What I’m saying is I’m disappointed that it’s still a thing.

But Payman you’re.

You’re progressing.

It’s such a thing that it’s gone viral. Yes.

Yeah, exactly. But the thing is, I thought it would. But you know what?

I’m certainly not training my daughter in.

Great. Fantastic.

You must have a boyfriend. A husband.

But, you know. But the thing.

Is also, like, you have to like your daughter’s really lucky because also, like Shivani coming from an Asian background and me coming from Middle Eastern background, it is so heavily ingrained in our culture.

It’s not just our parents, it’s a community.

And there’s something that it’s really my father, unfortunately, the most wonderful man in the entire world and I love him so much. Literally sat me down and was like when I was in my 20s and was like, It’s really important that you’re married by 30 and that you consider having children around then or just before then because your fertility will go down. Yeah, exactly. All right. And I get it. And there is like, of course, science on that. But as a result, the pressure that it put on me and now even really sadly Payman, I have conversations with some of my intelligent male friends who are single and almost 40 and they’re like, Oh, I don’t know if I’d date a girl in her mid 30s because, oh, I don’t know, like it’s a bit old and it’s really, it’s quite worrying, right? Because isn’t.

That what she can’t be the mother of my.

Children. Yes. And like it’s a bit old to date a girl in her mid 30s and I’m like, I’m thriving. I am so much happier in my 30s than I was in my 20s. So I still think and this is why so many people resonated with that video because you’ll be so shocked that so many women still feel that by 30, if they’re not married, they’re on the shelf.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, 100%. All of the comments were that and all of the comments were like, how do I tell my parents to back off? How do you how do I have this conversation? It’s still very much prominent and people love to say, Oh, that’s old and ages. No one ever talks about this. Now people do. It’s it’s so relevant for women now.

And it’s the whole risk thing that Shivani was saying is still it applies to relationships. People would rather be in an unhappy relationship or a dead relationship than leave because the risk of leaving is too much. The risk of being single viral. Exactly why you should leave. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Because a lot of the time we don’t. We stay in things because we think there’s never going to be something better. And that isn’t, by the way, me encouraging you when you have an argument with your partner or something goes wrong, just be like, I can get better. Someone else will treat me better. It’s more if you’re in a toxic relationship and you’re unhappy every single day and someone’s putting you down and you feel undervalued and you feel you’re not heard and you can’t communicate. Communication is the most important thing in a relationship. And if you can’t communicate with someone effectively and you’re arguing every day and you’re screaming at each other every day and you’re feeling stuck, don’t be scared that there’s not going to be something else out there because we don’t stay stuck in a job because we think there’s no other jobs in the world.

But also better to be without someone than to be with someone that makes you miserable. That’s my life goal. Now, I want to I know that you have done some incredible things, but I want you to tell us what you think. The three most important things that you did in your life to help your emotional well-being and mental health, especially through your transitional phase where you did something, leave a secure corporate job and so forth. And when you’ve reached those lowest moments, what were the three most important things that you did?

Whenever I reach a low moment now I know this sounds really annoying and consultancy, but I really plan the first thing I do and I tell everyone to do this was just write all your problems down. I just write them all down on a sheet of A4 paper on the left hand side. And once I’ve written every single one of those problems and I draw an arrow and I draw that arrow and I leave it, I leave it, I also get another sheet of paper and I write down the ten things that I’m so lucky to have that’s not great for. I’m grateful for my cup of coffee. It’s not that it’s more I’m so lucky to be able to learn so many things on social media. I’m so lucky that I whatever all these things I write down. Okay, so I write that. Then I get back that list of all the all of my problems. And I say to myself, What if someone else was telling you those things? And I draw an arrow and I say, okay, well, I can’t think of that one. Okay. My friend Vicky, she’s going through this. What would I say to her? Yeah. And I write those things down if I can’t feel anything out. This is one tactic I do.

And I pretend I’m in therapy and I pretend that the event has passed. So whenever I’m going through something I always remember, this is part of my story. And I’m going to make it. And this is going to be so funny. So one time I had an editor and I was working with him and one day he just quit. And I remember thinking, My God, what on earth am I going to do now? Because I had my job. And I remember thinking, I can’t do it. And I just wrote down, This is going to be so funny. I had this amazing editor. Now I have to do it myself. And I just remember pretending I was in therapy. I’m worried about this because. Okay, well, why are you worried? Because I’m not going to be good enough. So it’s your limiting beliefs. So why do you think you’re not good enough? You haven’t done it before. Yes, you have done it before. And I genuinely just talk to myself and not to myself in front of a mirror. I’m in a car. I’m listening to music Ludovico and I just love him. And I just pretend like I’m in therapy and I talk back to myself. And that’s actually a technique that a lot of people use.

Do you know something else I’ve done, actually, which really helps? I wrote a letter to my future self and I wrote about the key events that I thought I couldn’t get through. So it’d be like, Dear Rona, you’ve done so well. Do you remember that time when you were really stressing out that the practice wasn’t going to survive? But then you got through it? You also thought that you’d never find a loving, nourishing relationship. But do you remember? And then I talked about stuff that in the same way, like manifesting works and being like, you’re now together and you have two gorgeous children. It sounds really crazy, but it changes your state of mind. So it’s a writing a letter to your like as if you’re in your future self and.

Telling yourself characteristics like you’re resilient. You know, one of the reasons in the performance plan of the V two I’ve done, I’ve put something that I am proud of today. I am proud of because one of the other things when people are low, I tell them, just write down five things that you’re proud of, whatever they might be, and people will say, Well, nothing. I’m not proud of anything. And I’ll say, Well, I’m really proud of you for sharing how you feel and being vulnerable. And then they’ll say, Yeah, okay, yeah, I guess I am that. And I’m like, Do you help other people? And they say, Yeah, I’m really proud of being so caring. I’m really proud of being empathetic. And slowly, slowly you start to see the strengths that you have. But we shouldn’t wait for those moments. And it’s really important to every day write down some of your strengths and things that you’re proud of because you’re instilling those things within you. And that’s why I don’t really have those days now where I’m at a complete low. But when I do, that exercise is so powerful because there’s always a solution to something. Always. You alone might not be able to figure it out, but someone else will be able to help you, whether that’s a friend, a loved one, a therapist, Google it. I’m struggling with this point. There’ll be thousands of YouTube videos on telling you and how you can solve it.

Guys, You don’t have children, do you? Shivani No. So both of you, do you want children?

Yes, definitely.

So both of you are ambitious. You want children. We’ve got that work life balance thing that everyone has. Have you got examples of women that you look up to who pulled it off in your opinion, as far as ambition kids? But this is.

Can I can I go?

I was going to go I’m going to go like quite big celebrity. But for me, it’s Amal Clooney. Like she’s somebody that I really look up to because, number one, she’s an incredible career woman. She built her own career without George. She’s a humanitarian. They have kids. Do you see what I mean?

So they have kids. So why can’t.

George don’t know, be a.

Role model?

Because both have no idea what her relationship is with her kids.

But why is it that we’re asking about the mother’s relationship and not the father’s?

Because it’s you guys we’re talking to.

But this is a question that is asked a lot, right? How will you balance it as a woman? But that question is never asked to men. You know.

How can it is different, right?

Why?

Evolutionary. It. It’s different.

Okay. Why do you think a woman should be different to her kids than a man?

Yeah.

Really? Why?

Well, interesting. My.

My father.

Between a woman and her kid, is different to the relationship between a man and a kid. Why? I mean, do you not accept that or do you?

No, I don’t think that I have a very different relationship to my mom and my dad.

But I think I think I think a maternal instinct is something actually hormonally, there is something that goes on.

Maybe I haven’t.

Had it, so I don’t.

Know.

So my father does say that because obviously when you’re growing a baby, things like and because the man’s not growing the baby, there is something that goes on.

A hormonal man who are some men who aren’t.

But yeah, my dad’s very emotional.

He’s very open. Men and women are different.

Men and women are different. But I think in terms of balancing, I think there should be equal responsibility for a man and a woman.

Yeah, totally responsibility wise.

But I think you’re talking more about like, I think what he’s saying is, is that a lot of people and I do agree I’m a Payman I might be wrong a lot of women, their identity is either heavily linked to their career or to their children. And a lot finds it to have both. Do you see what I mean?

Where you see like I’m asking.

Yeah. And I as I said, I just gave unless there’s people within dentistry.

Do you know.

Her? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I’m talking about people, you know, because you. You really don’t know, do you? You don’t.

Know. You don’t know? No. No, of course not.

She could be ignoring her kids. She could have. No, no, of course.

Okay, fine. But from. From. From.

From what? You would need.

To, though, I think if you want to have a successful career, just like a man would want to have a successful career, one of you has to decide if you’re going to stay at home. And if you can’t stay at home, you have to have a nanny.

That doesn’t mean nanny.

Nanny nannies a damn good idea.

I had I had nannies.

And and I have an incredible relationship with my parents. And I don’t feel resentful or neglect. But what is interesting and I keep coming back to this is or Masha, you should get him on your podcast. I love amazing.

I listen to.

But he actually he would say that the importance of parental presence, whether it’s the mother or father, starts as early as in the womb that if you are neglected, resentful, anxious, it will affect your child later on. And the way that they come out and it is biologically ingrained and they’ve done loads of studies on rats and so forth and addiction and all this kind of stuff. So actually he would argue that attachment issues are really important as young, you know.

Do you know a woman who’s pulled it off in your opinion, or do you?

Yeah, I know Yosra. Zainab Yeah, these are two Dental I.

Do think it depends on what you define as pull it off. Reshma The lady I was speaking about, my auntie, she’s an amazing mother to both her kids. She did a speech with her baby on her hip. She’s breastfeeding at like the Golden Globes. Do you know what I mean? Like, that’s what she.

She’s my goals. Then that’s exactly what I want to be doing.

Amazing. But, you know, at the same.

Time, she was on her book tour and her son was with her and that is managing it. That’s hard. And it’s you have to make a decision. But, you know, at the end of the day, we are women who want to do the best because we want our children to be like my mum. Well, this is how I see it. I want my kids to be like, My mum did that for me. My mum was able to do it, so I’m going to do it. I don’t want my daughter growing up being like, Well, Mum stayed at home and Dad did all the work. So, you know, I think it’s what role models do we want to be? And when you communicate that with your children as well, to say, I’m doing this for you because you can feel and.

That’s what my parents did with me.

Then there’s not that level of resentment. If you’re out and about and you don’t communicate with your child. And I think a lot of the time we think of children as like infants and therefore, you know, we can’t explain things to them. But often communication is the key.

Look, with.

Your level of ambition for the sake of the argument, if you didn’t pursue your own goals, when you have kids feel.

Resentful of.

That, would that would just end up but.

Payman you know exactly you are you.

Often ask me sometimes about one of my biggest drivers and I’ll tell you one thing is that sometimes I saw for example, I went to university with some girls. Their mums were like avid housewives, gave up everything, did nothing. Kids went to uni, mum went off the rails quite literally. I know that.

Although if, if you can pull that off. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s great too. But there was a lot.

There was a loss of identity because the kids grew.

Up. I see that with my wife.

You know, the kids grew up and it’s like, What do I do now? Yeah, now, Shivani, I know that you’re a very busy woman, but as always, it’s been such a pleasure to speak to you. And, you know, one of the most inspiring people. I’d also really encourage Payman for you to get her planner. It’s changed my life. But that organisation, your mind, we actually had a guest on as well a couple of weeks ago and he talked about systems and how systems really help your mental health because he said goal driven stuff can be detrimental sometimes because when you don’t reach that goal, you beat yourself up. But but systems achieving things within your system. So it could be things like going to the gym, eating well, drinking enough water. And I find that your planner has given me a real structure to my systems because I’m like, I want to do this in my month. It’s not a goal. It’s part of my ecosystem. You know, there’s different things.

There’s outcome based goals, which is the section for your big picture goals, right? Outcome based goals would be I want to go on TikTok by 1 million. My process based goals are I need to post seven times a day. These are the times I’m going to do it. This is who’s going to cut up my videos. This is going to be how I’m going to do my subtitles. This is.

How detailed my planner.

Is. This is how do you write down all of those processes? Now let’s say I finish those processes and I’ve allocated time every day to work an hour on tick tock building at the end of the month. If I haven’t hit 1 million, it doesn’t matter. I’ve hit my process. The process based goal is key. The outcome based goal will always change because what if I hit 2 million? Yeah, right. And then that way I’ll be like, okay, now my next one is 5 million. And so with numbers you’re always chasing, you’re never going.

To get the goal post change.

You have to think about your habits and your systems that help you implement those goals. If I want to lose 20 20kg, for example, my aim is to go to the gym every day. Well, if I go to the gym every day and I’m going to do it for 30 minutes of cardio and ten minutes of strength based strength. What’s it called? Strength. Strength?

Well, I’m saying.

Strength based training, strength based.

Training.

Then every day when I’m hitting that, I’m feeling closer and closer. Now, if I don’t hit that goal specifically, I’m feeling stronger, I’m looking better. I’m in that mindset of continuing to push because I’m seeing some level of small change because I’m being consistent. At that point, I can say, well, my outcome was my outcome goal wasn’t what I wanted to hit in the first place. I actually just wanted to feel better. I wanted to feel confident so those outcome goals can change.

Can I ask the final question?

You can call.

You know, I like to do my which I’ve written down, but you can ask the final question. Go on.

What keeps you up at night?

That’s a good one. I actually had that run down a lot.

I think often I think, am I am I ever going to be enough? Because I’m growing so quickly at the moment and it feels that everyone’s praising me for things that I don’t think I should be praised for. And I think will it ever make me feel enough? Like, what am I looking for here? I’m so happy with these conversations, but I’m very uncomfortable with everyone saying like, You’re killing it, You’re so successful. I’m like, Why? Why do you think that? I find it very strange. And when I think about that, sometimes when I go to sleep, I think, what are people seeing? Like, what are they seeing? And what really defines someone killing it? Because I really think that, okay, yes, I’ve grown and yes, I have nice conversations, whatever, but what am I going to do for the rest of my life? Is this what I’m going to do for the rest of my life? And sometimes that scares me. But I think I do have a little bit of a plan. And again, this is where I think it’s so important to dream and just think, who do I envy? Who do I want to be like? But yeah, definitely thinking about five years time, if people ask me, that freaks me out because I think I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Imposter syndrome at its best. You are killing it. Shivani I know. So I’m saying that.

So you.

Must. You must feel the same.

Oh, all the time. Forever. All the time.

I get so shocked.

When people say to me like, You’ve.

Done so much.

But when people are like, You’ve done. So I genuinely don’t believe.

I’m as tangible.

But you’ve got this tangible, what is my tangibility?

But the thing is.

I think yours is so much more tangible and I think in a way, sorry, I know we’re meant to end this. I’m going to round this up in a way. You know, you said I’m really in a fortunate position because I’ve always been passionate about media, right? We’ve spoken about this. I love, love my job. There’s elements of my job that I’m like, Oh my God, I hate this. Like the admin side, the boring bits of dentistry. But I love media, right? I was so good at drama and I was so good at philosophy, English literature, and I really, really, really was so upset that my parents stopped me from pursuing that because literally my English teacher was like, She needs to go to Oxbridge. Like I applied to Oxbridge. Like, she’s so good at English literature. Hundred percent of my Shakespeare, A-level paper. And my dad goes for what? To be a teacher? He goes, She can do this in her spare time. So you can’t say that to teachers. Anyway, the point is, I am glad that I did dentistry because I still wanted to be a dentist. But that doesn’t mean that I still can’t do drama. And this year I was like, I’m going to go back to acting school because I just want to. And she’s coming with me, you know? And you know what? I’m fortunate enough because I can do that because I can still earning at the same time. But as you said, it’s plans.

Exactly.

So thank you very much, Shivani. You’ve been an incredible guest. Thank you. So we’re so honoured to have you here. And we can say that we’re one of the originals when she’s got those 1 million followers. Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you again. Thank you so.

Much. Bye.