Trauma is not always what happens to you. It’s what doesn’t happen that should have happened. Really? Like what? Like, for example, a child that didn’t receive the needs it should have received, didn’t didn’t receive enough love or didn’t have a caring parent.

So neglect in a way.

Neglect, Yeah. Things that should have happened that you should have received as a human being. And that didn’t happen. That can also cause trauma. So there’s different ways that can happen and different ways that it can be shaped. It’s not just some, you know, horrific events that could have happened to us. It could be like very small things. But, you know, for example, you could respond to it or Payman could respond to that, but I could not because for whatever reason, I’m very secure in that sense and it doesn’t affect me.

This is Mind Movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts, Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. And today we have my best friend and an incredible psychotherapist in the making, Nino Supremacy. Now, Nino and I have known each other for almost ten years now. No.

Yes, I was just telling Payman over ten years, I think.

Yeah. So it was because there was a dude and I was friends with the dude and he was into her. But we ditched the dude and became best friends. Like, literally that’s what happened. And Nino has been one of the most inspiring people in my life and also a massive support to me. But what I found very interesting is over the last couple of years, whilst I’ve been navigating my own mental health, we’ve been able to delve deeper on the impact of childhood, on the way that we developed the processing of information and the way that we hear it. And most importantly, I think that, you know, you went to back to university to study and ultimately understand yourself, but to be able to provide and help for people. So Nino has also got a she’s also an entrepreneur, so she has been in the hospitality industry for over ten years. She had a restaurant before and now she has co-founded a chain called Waka, not Wahaca, because everyone thinks it’s waka waka. And through a really difficult time, as we know, when the pandemic hit, the business suffered, as many businesses did, and navigating through that was a really difficult thing. And she continues to do that. And so I think that Nino could provide a lot of value. Ultimately, she’s helped me a lot. So yeah, that’s my introduction for Nino.

Wow, Lovely to have you, Nina.

Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here.

And so you were telling me before you grew up in the Soviet Union.

Yeah. So I grew up in USSR. I was born in USSR and I was still a baby when I broke up. But as I was telling you, it’s, you know, you still have a good decade of it still operating under those rules. You know, it’s like storming period where nobody knows what they’re doing. So it wasn’t a very safe place. And it operates under very different set of rules than Europe or well, my life right now. So yeah, it was a very interesting time to be growing up and I guess until I moved to the UK obviously.

So I’m quite interested in, you know, the advantage. Gary Vaynerchuk talks about it, the advantage of the immigrant situation. So you look at Russians who’ve who’ve really made it big, I guess Gary Vaynerchuk is one of them, right? Or Lex Friedman or Vitaly from the crypto space. Do you think do you think you’ve had an advantage by being an immigrant?

You mean coming into the UK? Yeah.

Because you know, the disadvantage of it is kind of obvious. We kind of know that you come into a new country, you don’t know the language, you know, you don’t know the system, all of that. But but Garyvee always talks about the advantage of being an immigrant. Do you feel that or no?

Well, it’s funny you should ask that. So I was already a migrant in Russia because I’m Georgian. Okay? So I’m not Russian myself by blood. But I was born in Russia, so I was already a migrant then. Then, you know, I migrated here. But it’s something that I was actually talking to someone in terms of language as an advantage. I think when you’re bilingual or trilingual, which is what I am, language gives you a huge access to perception of the world. So when you because there are certain words in languages that describe certain emotions or feelings that you potentially don’t have in another language. So when you have that ability to see the world perceive it and describe it through different languages, your world dimension goes from 2D to 3D, potentially five and six. And, you know, so I guess that’s one of the advantages of the language. Um.

I’m going to take it a little bit step, step further though, Payman, because I think I’m really interested in this coming from a place because you described that you came from Georgia to Russia, and people often say that there’s a difference between sort of cultural and generational trauma, particularly for people that had to continuously emigrate. So, for example, somebody, let’s say in the UK, which has been a pretty stable country for many years, they say you might have your internal traumas within family school. We’ve discussed this before, you know, but really when you talk about certain nations, particularly if they’ve been in war, they experience things like genocide. There’s more a generational trauma that’s carried. Would you agree with that?

I. Well, Gabor Maté talks a lot about that. I personally cannot claim generational trauma because I haven’t had that experience, but he definitely does. And there is truth in that. I think we do. There is a generational trauma that does happen. He actually says, What does he say? He says, trauma is not what happens to us. It’s our response to what happens. And I find that very interesting. And there is he talks a lot. I mean, I don’t want to butcher his words, but he’s someone who advocates a lot for that. And there’s definitely truth in that. I do agree. Yes.

But I was I was thinking more about, you know, I know you were you were young when you were in Russia. Right. But but I see it now when people come over from Lebanon or from Iran. I came. Friends, friends and family. Yeah.

Yeah. I’m an immigrant, too, you know.

Yeah, I know, I know. But that’s what I was looking at. You. But. But they, for instance, in Lebanon, as a company, you give a price to someone. It’s valid for about, for 24 hours. After that, it depends on where the dollar has gone and so on. And so when that guy comes here and experiences stability over here for them, it’s kind of child’s play to then do business because business was so hard back home and no one pays anyone. You know, there’s all this. So I was thinking of that, you know, the sort of the street smarts of of growing up in Georgia and Russia and then coming to London. And, you know, you’ve set up your own business. Now you’re doing it. That’s what I was thinking of. Does that resonate or no?

Yes. So what you’re saying is when you come from essentially Wild West into a civilised environment, I tell you what I actually think, and this is what I’ve experienced, that when it comes to setting up business and I’ve started a few businesses here, there is still a lot of stuff and a lot of deals that happen in a similar way. Not necessarily corruption, but in a similar way that they would operate to what I was exposed to in Russia. But it’s done at a very different level. So there is no access to it. Whereas, for example, in other countries where there is like more street way of working, it’s accessible to everyone. So everyone is on par, everyone’s on equal footing. Whereas here I find it’s a little bit more niche and it’s still there, but only available to some. So in a way, you know, it’s masked under this.

Give an example of that.

Do you know what I’m going to interject there and you know why I’m going to interject? Because I just came back from a refugee camp. As you know, I work in Lesvos. I’m working there for many years. And the main thing is, is that people are escaping such tyranny war, famine, all these things. And they come in hopes of just like living a normal life. And in a way, you know, there’s a difference between a refugee and an immigrant, right? But in a way, they want to live lives. And some of these refugees that you meet, their doctors in their countries, their lawyers, you know, they’re not leaving because I don’t know, like they don’t have a job, etcetera. They’re leaving because they are forcibly you know, they have to they’re forced out of their homes. But what I have heard is anecdotally and some people that have been in these camps for like five years, they aren’t given the fair opportunities. Because what I’m hearing you say is that it’s a fair kind of playing field, as it were, coming into one of these countries. And I just don’t think it works like that at all. And a lot of them find it really hard to actually create the opportunities they had once they left.

Yeah, I’m what I’m saying is that it’s obvious that it’s hard. Yeah, but are there advantages? But I’m interested in what you’re saying. So you’ve experienced a situation where I don’t know who you know is more important than what you know or access at the top. So give me an example.

Oh.

If you want to. If you want to talk about it.

Well, I don’t know if I can give you a specific example without exposing because I still have a duty of care to my businesses, but I’ll try and speak to it in broader terms. Is it like.

Is it, for instance, is it something like you want to open a shop on King’s Road and the landlord won’t give it to you because you haven’t got the background of some big chain that can. Is there something like that?

Yes, but that’s that’s in general, like that’s not a subtext or a hidden thing. That’s an obvious. Yeah, there is a history, but it’ll be in like little things. It’ll be like when once you already running a business when it comes to rent reviews and independent surveying and things like that. Okay. Without exposing too much. Fair enough. Hoping you’ll read between the lines.

So I’m going to.

Move along the timeline now because because we have a sort of explored childhood. But I understand that you were also sent to boarding school. Yes. When you were younger. How old were you when you went to boarding school?

So I was I just turned 13.

How was that experience? Because your parents were still in Russia right at the time. So how do you think what do you think a child goes through when they’re sent to something like boarding school and they’re not with their parents? Do you think that has an impact on the way that you grow up? And how did you specifically feel?

Um, that’s a good question. I think there’s definitely pros and cons. I think perhaps it was a bit different for me because I wasn’t just sent to boarding school. I was also sent to a different environment, different language, different country, different culture that I wasn’t part of. So I was learning a lot in the first year of being abroad. So you learn very fast. You definitely learn some key human survival life skills. So I’m super grateful for that. Um, is it hard? Yes, it is very difficult. It was for me personally, I found it very difficult. Maybe, you know, some people have thicker skin than I am, but, I mean, I’m here now. This is, you know, another thing that all the things that happened to us in life, they shape us. And perhaps some experiences are less favourable than others. But it’s really how you turn your life experiences. And I don’t regret it. Was it difficult at times? Yes.

Question is, though, with now, with what you know, with your studies, etcetera, you know, childhood is something that really shapes the way we are in adulthood. And from what I understand, I don’t know if you know this as well, is that two people can experience exactly the same thing. So, for example, say you have siblings, right? And the parents treated them in, say, both badly. But one person, the way that they process information, one sibling can be completely different to the other. And it’s really interesting. That really, really interests me. Why do you think that is? Or can you explain from kind of your own training and your own studies, like why do people process information in a different way?

So I tell you what, it’s not when two siblings are growing up in the same family. It’s not that they have the same upbringing because they have the same parents. When the parents were bringing them up, they would have been at different stages in their personal life. We’re all human, right? We’re experiencing different things. So they could have been at different stages, bringing up different siblings. So the upbringing of two siblings in the same family will be very different experiences. Yeah, just because they come from same parents does not mean that the parenting style was the same. Yeah.

Interesting. It’s very interesting and I personally found it really hard. Payman Did you study in London at school? Yeah. No.

Dental No.

Cardiff I found my dental school experience, my whole university experience, really quite traumatic if I think about it, because damage was like so funny. Payman jokes. I mean, he’s like, You’re damaged goods. I’m like, I’m not damaged goods. I’ve been through a lot. You know.

You are damaged. So what? So isn’t isn’t this precious cargo?

Can we use that term?

Isn’t this whole series about talking about.

Damaged goods.

Your damaged.

Goods?

I thought that’s what it was all about.

I mean, just calm down.

You’re acting like I’m just, like, having a therapy session for myself. The point is, for me, I think it’s all about opening up that narrative. I am more sensitive. I’m actually going to ask you that later on. You know, sensitivity is a really weird one because I feel like some people, again, it’s about that process saving information. Are they better at hiding it or are they better at suppressing it or are they just not feeling as much as me because I feel so much around me and I absorb so much around me? And I think that’s what makes me so sensitive to things that go on, you know, And I’ve talked to you about things. You’re like, Why have you got carrying the weight on your shoulders? I’m like, Oh, this has happened. You’re like, Don’t worry about it, you know? But I just take it on.

We talked about this, but the problem is, if I could give you a pill that would make you less sensitive, that pill would also make you less empathetic. Empathetic?

I think they’re called antidepressants.

Yeah, well, for the sake, if I could push a button and make you less sensitive, you would. You would lose your biggest strength as well as your biggest weakness. Now, now, if sensitivity is disabling you. Yeah. Twice a week, then you talk to your therapist and work out how to handle that situation, right?

Totally. Yeah. No, I totally understand what you’re saying. I’ve lost my train of thought. Now, what was I saying before.

That you were saying, How can I be less.

Sensitive? So, yeah, that was.

There was there was something before.

That.

Tell us about the business. So. So I’m interested in one minute you weren’t a business owner and then you said you want to become a business owner.

Oh, I remember. No, let me interject. He can edit this university. That was it. This is the question. So with university, I found that whole experience really difficult because it was the first time in my life that I was thrown into an environment where people weren’t from different backgrounds and different countries. So in school I grew up in a really multicultural society. You know, everyone like London School, West End, you know, And I was like, This is amazing. And then I went and everyone was, you know, English went to boarding school. They were like, You’re so exotic. Like, they literally look at me like that. And I felt at the time I was like, okay, this is a bit weird, but I spent a lot of time trying to fit in. And I think that I really like struggled. And, you know, a lot of dentists relate to me, by the way, when I talk about my university experience because I feel like I’ve always sort of stuck out. But also I want to know because obviously, as I said, you went through boarding school, etcetera, and we’ve talked about how sometimes there’s times where you were like, I’m a bit different, but what are the pivotal ages where your mind sort of develops and it shapes and affects who you become and adulthood? And can I say that, you know, even though I was within within kind of my late teens and 20s, that that has really shaped who I am now?

Well, there’s different schools of therapy and psychotherapy and belief. And if you ask Freud, he’ll tell you everything happens in the first five years, 3 to 5 years of your life. I personally think that we’re much more complex beings and we’re learning consistently through our lives. And I think it’s not. Yes, there is shaping years for sure. Pre-birth actually, when you’re still in the womb, you’re already like, there’s consciousness, right? So you get.

Did you know that?

I kind of thought maybe play music to the foetus kind of thing for the hell of it. But, but.

And also obviously if you’re a stressed out mum.

Yeah. Oh definitely. Yeah. I definitely think that.

In the womb.

You put stress chemicals into the baby, right? Yeah, for.

Sure.

That’s super.

Interesting. I’ve always thought that, but go ahead. Yeah.

So it’s so pre birth and then you know, there’s the first pivotal ages of your life that you do develop. But then I do think this also happens in your teens. I do think it happens later on in life as well. I do think people go through transformations or people completely change their careers and change their lives. And that’s also like part of, you know, there’s this idea that trauma is something like a really bad event that happens to us, but it doesn’t need to be. Also, trauma is not always what happens to you. It’s what doesn’t happen that should have happened. Really?

Like what?

Like, for example, a child that didn’t receive the needs it should have received, didn’t didn’t receive enough love or didn’t have a caring parent.

So neglect in a way.

Neglect, Yeah. Things that should have happened that you should have received as a human being. And that didn’t happen. That can also cause trauma. So there’s different ways that can happen and different ways that it can be shaped. It’s not just some, you know, horrific events that could have happened to us. It could be like very small things. But, you know, for example, you could respond to it or Payman could respond to that, but I could not because for whatever reason, I’m very secure in that sense and it doesn’t affect me, but for whatever reason it affects you, for example. So our response to an outside factor will be different. Yours could come out in a trauma and mine could not.

Yeah, you know what? I’m thinking about it as well. Dentistry has a lot of ethnic minorities. It’s a profession that’s actually dominated by ethnic minorities. And a lot of the first generation that came here to give their children opportunities also didn’t have like the access and knowledge to the things that you’re talking about. And I think that obviously this is just me making a massive assumption that also affects the way that they respond to things like, you know, complaints, the way they respond to stress, to all this kind of stuff. Like they they have that exaggerated response. It could be it could well be. I mean, that’s just a sort of random.

Are you are now over your university issue or.

Are you not? No, no, no.

Because you bring it up. You bring it up quite often. Right.

Let’s talk about that. I think that would be quite interesting. What Let me take a listen.

Listen, I get it as well. I was a London guy. I went to Cardiff. Cardiff is all about rugby. Yeah, I didn’t I didn’t feel like anyone judged me or hassled me or I didn’t fit in or whatever because I found my friends there. But with you, you got through that. Now you’re super successful. You’ve got access to all this mental health stuff. Have you gotten over it or haven’t you?

Like I think that I think it goes a little bit further. And again, Nina can give you the diagnosis. We all talk about this. I think that the judgement is always there. I spent so long trying to fit in and I you know, I have to tell you guys, I was actually really embarrassed of my ethnicity and background, so I was really embarrassed that my parents were foreign. I was really embarrassed. I didn’t have a house in the countryside. I was really embarrassed. I’d never been shooting. Things like that. They made me feel really shamed. There was a lot of shame around my own upbringing, and particularly I felt like I was also falling into like narrative about like there’s too many immigrants in the country, etcetera, which is like disgusting because obviously, like right now, like, you know, I’m helping refugees all the time. But I was so brainwashed and so eager to fit in. Now, I think, yes, I’m over it, but I still that need to prove that I’m good enough and worthy enough is still there. But it also goes pre to childhood as well. Because during my school years, my parents, who came as immigrants, struggled when they came to the UK.

But my mum was adamant she wanted to send me to a good school because education was always at the forefront of my parents mind. It was just always education. So my parents were working 24 over seven to make sure they could afford to put us in a private school. But also they were shame we couldn’t afford new uniforms. We had to buy the like, third hand uniform that had like holes in it. My parents couldn’t pick me up from school because they were working, so the parents also shamed me in the school. So I think that there’s been a lot of shame and guilt around me and like Nino knows that as well, and it’s sometimes still cripples me in my adulthood. I feel that when I’m whenever I’m in a situation with a group of people, am I good enough? Can I prove I’m good enough? And if I get a little bit of criticism or someone makes a little joke about me the way that I look, my partner, my family, anything I go into, like shame and guilt, almost like a little child.

So it’s you’re having a response that you would have had back then. So what happens is it’s.

Like a PTSD.

Kind of. Exactly. Yeah. It’s a sort of like a wound that hasn’t completely healed. And I know you are you’re working a lot with your mental health and you’re constantly bettering yourself.

I have a therapist. Everyone knows. Everyone knows. I’m literally like, I.

I think your therapist has a therapist. I really admire that. By the way. I think it’s so beautiful and you’re actually being a huge inspiration to me personally on my personal journey because you’ve always been so open and so vulnerable about your mental health, about struggles that you’ve dealt with. You know, I’ve come from a school of don’t show emotion, just be strong because strength is the Russian way. You know, it’s more tough, like, yeah, don’t like, what are you crying about? There’s people.

Dying.

People dying. Yeah. Like there’s things going on, like get your shit together. Sorry.

No, it’s okay. And Payman is all aspiring.

It’s fine.

And, you know, like, pick.

Yourself up and go. Like, we don’t have time to, like, worry about things. So I. You know, I’ve come from a place where, like, don’t show emotion. And then, you know, I met you and you were just crying.

All the time.

No, you were just so open and vulnerable. And you’ve taught me a lot. And you’ve taught me how to, like, be in touch with myself and my emotions. So I love that about you. That’s one of your biggest strengths, I think. And never lose that. Never, never lose that. But sorry, going back to what you were saying. Yes. What happens is with the wounds that haven’t healed, for example, whenever we get little reminders and our reaction feels disproportionate to the outside factor, it’s usually an internal reaction to the years before. Right. That haven’t healed. And it’s just it’s like a wound that is still open and like a bit of salt being put on it and then it just flames it. That’s what happens.

It’s really interesting. Payman Tell me now because you’re never vulnerable. So I’m just going to ask you straight up, do you think you’ve ever experienced mental health problems?

I’ve been bullied. I’ve been bullied as a kid.

Does that impact your adulthood?

Uh, kind of. I’m kind of. I don’t. You know, it’s a bit like spirituality in a way for me. I don’t have the vocab of it. And, you know, I’ve only just realised aged 50 that the reason why I can’t put my finger on spirituality is that you can’t put your finger on. That’s the whole point. You can’t put your finger. And it’s a bit like that. I don’t know, it might come up and get me at some point. The fitting in piece, you know, I was the same. I came from Iran and didn’t speak the language and and all of that. But has it disabled me? I think there was one moment at the beginning of Enlightened when everything was was was coming down on us. I was being sued by my ex principal. We were losing hundreds of thousands a year at the same time as working our butt off. And I remember feeling, oh, you know, um, but no, it’s a short answer. But do you think do you think.

Do you think that an element of that because there’s a slight discomfort when I ask you that question, which is typical when I ask men or boys, do you think that’s because do you think toxic masculinity is a thing? And do you think that’s why as well, like men in some way have suppressed because they can’t be maybe vulnerable?

Maybe. Look, when you first. Suggested to do this series. Yeah, he was.

Like, No one is going to care. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Not quite. Not quite that. But. But what I said to you was talking about it is all well and good, but is there is there something we can get out of it? Because I know your generation likes to talk about this a lot. Yeah. And maybe because my generation didn’t like to talk about this, but, you know, just talking about it, you know, doing my head in. Yeah. I think these actionable things and but you’re right. Insomuch as if we listen to a story, your story and your story says people I didn’t fit in in university and it still affects me today. And then we listen to your story and you didn’t fit in in school, but it doesn’t affect you today. It’s it’s interesting to.

Say that for the sake.

Of the argument she.

Was being Russian and taking.

So do you do.

You feel like an outsider still in in the UK? Because Because I do.

Do you know what’s interesting to me? That you’re trying to avoid a subject of toxic masculinity?

I don’t know what it means.

Yeah. Okay. Well, this is great because a lot of people won’t know. And again, we’ve talked about Andrew Tate, who’s literally always, like, creeping in. Is that what. No, no, no. So, Nino, please give the definition of toxic masculinity.

Well, I think yeah, let’s define it first. I mean, I’m no expert, and I think we should go straight to the source. And I’ll ask you, because you’re the man on this table. But I think it’s a term that gets thrown around a lot. I find nowadays our generation is we’re educated in therapy and psychotherapy. So there’s all these terms that we’re throwing around and we don’t necessarily know the right definition. So sometimes they get misused. I am no expert on toxic masculinity, but masculinity becomes toxic when men feel like they have to conform to gender roles in a way that, you know, the idea of an alpha male is we don’t show emotions. Aggression and dominance is what gets you power dominance over men and women. And there’s all this testosterone. So that’s when masculinity turns toxic, when those attributes that men have, which could be good, actually, because all those things we needed, men needed for survival. I mean, if I take it back to caveman times, we probably that was developed for survival instincts because we needed to protect. But nowadays men need those less. But there is still we’re only five minutes away evolution wise from caveman. So, you know, there’s we still have these emotions and feelings and they come out perhaps in a toxic way. And that’s what masks masculinity, toxic masculinity is.

And that’s why someone like Andrew Tate, because he’s basically like saying like, man up, do this, do that. Jemmy, Don’t show emotion. Don’t cry, don’t be a pussy. You know, like, that’s all stuff that could be perceived as toxic masculinity, but in a way, in a way, I do agree with you and I’m going to be a little bit controversial. The new generation has become a little bit too fragile in a way, because it’s like we run away from any kind of pain or any kind of like, no, I don’t want to put myself through this. And like, no, I want to cry all the time. Like I’m all up for being vulnerable, as you know, and really addressing the issues. But also, I think that we have to understand that, like, for me, I like some displays of masculinity in my partner, for example, you know, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But that’s me being controversial.

I mean, Andrew Tate is an extreme example, right? Is that it’s not I mean, you don’t see that in most men today. But but the reason for toxic masculinity, now that I know what it means for me is that men haven’t had a voice. Right. So the reason the reason why Andrew Tate is, is trending, if you like, is that no one saying the stuff that he’s saying and men haven’t had a voice for a long time. It’s the reason why Trump wins in America. It’s the reason why, you know, the the white man here has Brexit was caused by that. The working man up north seeing, not getting any any of the benefits of being in the European Union, seeing these other men coming in. And so, you know, it is kind of the elephant in the room. Men are men aren’t talked about. Men are the ones committing suicide more than much, more than much more than women. And so for that reason, I see why if there’s an Andrew Tate out there, he gets more attention because he’s kind of speaking for men, whereas men were the only ones being listened to 20 years ago. Now it’s almost like men are the last ones being listened to. You’ve got all the you know, of course, women, the minorities, the the by issue, the transsexual issue, and then finally men. But in my in my friend group. Do I know people who are overly masculine? Yeah, a couple. But I would definitely wouldn’t say it’s the.

Name.

Loads in your generation of dentistry.

Can you?

Yeah.

The Facebook groups where they literally hate on everyone and.

Just like you know.

But that’s maybe we should explain it to to Nina right in dentistry there’s arguments right So they say, oh here’s a tooth, this is what I did. And then the other guy will come in really solidly saying, you did that completely wrong. And it gets nasty quite quickly in a way. In a way, it’s because you’ve got that cover of the patient. Yeah, I’m doing the best thing for the patient and people use that cover.

For their egos.

For their egos and and some of that toxic masculinity then comes out because it’s kind of repressed.

Let me ask you something. Do you think and it’s something that I was wondering about just as we’re talking now, do you think it’s a cultural thing? Because not cultural thing, because different cultures, what they deem as masculinity, will be different, Right. So you said you’ve come from Iran. You know, I’m Georgian, Russian, you’re Lebanese, Egyptian. So, you know, will that idea of what a man should be differ So therefore toxic masculinity is different.

I’ve got a friend. I’ve got a friend who from the get go said to his wife or his wife to be that I will not change nappies. Yeah, I found it weird. I found it strange for a father to say I will not change nappies. Yeah, but that was his thing, right? That was his toxic Iranian masculinity, if you want.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. He also said he doesn’t want his wife to work. Yeah, he wants his wife to stay at home. And again, I found that wrong because. Because work, I think, completes a woman, you know, like, it’s a it’s a nightmare just having to be stay at home 100%. And obviously. But he said this to all the women he was he was with before he was going to ask them to marry them. And I found it a bit wrong. But you know.

What? But again, again, the voice we’ve touched a little bit on Cancel Culture, you know, definitely has some interesting views on this. I know Payman as well, But this friend of yours, if he went online or went public or went anything to say that.

He’d be destroyed.

He’d be destroyed. And the thing is, I don’t agree with him, but that’s his narrative. Recently, Steven Bartlett had a couple of guests on who were really assassinated. Do you follow his podcasts? Quite so. I think a guy called Chris Wills or something like that, I don’t know. But ultimately he’s considered to be sort of a lesser version of Andrew Tate, as it were. And he basically went on to say that there was like a tall girl problem in the world at the moment. It’s an.

Analogy. I don’t have that problem.

It’s an analogy. But basically what he’s saying is because women have more in the sense that, you know, like the way that they they look a certain way, but they’re very career driven. They can make their own money, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And then there’s this this expectation of men. But ultimately, you should be looking for other attributes of men because like, let’s just talk about like, I don’t know, someone that works, a woman that works at JP Morgan, right? And she’ll only date a certain type of guy because of what she believes she deserves, right? Which is fair enough. But he’s basically saying that the way that society is going and more and more women are single, they don’t know why they’re single, is that they should be opening their eyes and accepting men for other attributes. So you might not have somebody that’s making loads of money, but they might be really kind or they might be really good looking or etcetera, etcetera. So it’s a compromise in a way. Anyways, there was a huge uproar because a lot of women got offended. They were like, How dare you? Like women for many years have put themselves down and now you’re saying it’s our fault that we’re single? Instead of saying men should level up to meet us at our level?

Go on.

Hang on. What’s your question?

What’s the question? Yeah. Whose fault is it that women are single?

But the thing is, is that these views, I think well, first of all, what do you think? Do you agree with what he’s saying? What do you agree with that sort of narrative? Number two, for him expressing that narrative and people trying to sort of cancel him and they were saying to Steven Bartlett, how dare you have him on your podcast, etcetera. Is that fair? And as a society, as we’re moving more and more towards silencing people online, what does that impose suggest for the future?

So I think I don’t know. I mean, you know, me and you have discussed this before. It’s a very thin line, right? You can’t just shut up someone whose views you don’t agree with because then that goes into the territory of do you then stop anyone’s opinion because you don’t agree with it? Yes. And you’re right. Like there are so many opinions that we do not share and that could be very controversial, could be offensive, rude, racist, all those things. However, is it right to silence these people? I don’t have the answer. I think. I don’t.

Think. What if they’re dangerous?

I we talked about this before. I think it’s worth it.

Do you think it’s worth it? Worth them?

Speaking out.

Yeah, like. Like we were saying before, if you can drive a car, you can crash it. You can kill a family, right? We don’t all stop driving cars because of that. Yeah, we continue to drive cars. So. So there are there are side effects to free speech. Yes.

Do you think Elon Musk then was correct in his recent changes with Twitter and just letting everyone on?

100%. 100%. I mean, you know, you can’t be black and white in this area because obviously, if someone’s saying something illegal, you know, then that needs if someone if someone’s, you know, clearly, you know, making loads of people and putting them in danger. I get it. But in general, in general, if there’s no free speech, there’s no freedom at all. There’s no there’s no like to your point, there’s no evolution of thought. Yeah. And to constantly worry about what you’re going to say, I mean, these questions you’re asking right now, my number one thing I’ve got in my head is I don’t want to be that guy that had the uproar. Yeah, Yeah. Because, you know, I got three things to say about whether women are is. Is it women’s fault that they’re single? Sure. Everything is everyone’s own fault. Oh, I.

See what you do. There it.

Is. You know, you take take responsibility for. For. For your own situation. Yeah, but I’m scared to say that, man, because if.

You said it now it’s on. It’s on my. Yeah, it’s on the net. Yeah.

You see what I mean though. The fact that the number one thing in my head is can I or can I not say the thing that’s in my head.

Which is the same with.

Me? It’s sad.

It’s the same with all of us. And I actually think this is why.

Podcasts are working. This is why people are interested in podcasts because people are saying what they think on.

Podcasts before they.

Get cancelled.

Yeah, this will probably be the last podcast by Payman Nina.

Want to Steinbach mind movies?

That’s it now.

No, I hear you and I think yeah it’s it’s scary to say what you think because if it gets misconstrued then it could like you could kill your career completely. Yeah, but as a society for evolution of thought, I think you learn more from ideas that you disagree with for sure. Because agreeing with something is a lot easier. You’re like, Yeah, I agree with that. That’s cool. That’s where you’re, you know, you’ll stop mulling it over. But then if you say something that really triggers me and bothers me, I’m going to think about that and I’m going to think about that more. And then thinking about it, I’m going to come up with my counter arguments of why I disagree and evolve that thought. You know, I think it was Nietzsche who said, Don’t be afraid of enemies. Actually wish for strong enemies so you can become stronger. Yeah, and it’s.

So true because it’s.

All the it’s.

The pain, the grief and the struggle that’s made me who I am today, to be honest. And the people that disagree with me like, you can’t do this.

You can’t.

But let’s let’s talk about these single women.

Oh, okay, fine.

Number one, I didn’t know there were so many single women out there. Yeah, but what’s the issue? Open it up.

For me a little bit, I.

Think. I mean, obviously, um, I think, you know, again, I think, like, situations are complex. Like I’m somebody, like people would have expected to kind of get married a long time ago, number one, because of the cultural things. And number two, even when I was single, Payman, you were like, you’re such a catch. You’re such a catch phrase, still single. And I was just like, Can you calm down?

Like, literally, I’m trying.

So the thing is, is like obviously with me, like I had a Break-Up when I was 27. I didn’t expect it was my first love. I thought it was going to marry him. He was a trust fund kid that wanted to become a DJ. And, you know, like our lives just went in different directions. But I definitely felt the pressure as a woman to be like, Oh my God, that whole narrative. Like, I’m about to turn 30 and I’ve got three years to find my husband and women are on the shelf. And this was also a narrative that my parents instilled in me. My dad being a gynaecologist was like past 35 geriatric mother.

It’s diabetes, you know.

Like all that kind of stuff. So I grew up with like a lot of like, oh my gosh, conditioning, conditioning, conditioning. And Nina will express her view now. But I think that like, I was always very career focussed and I don’t think being career focussed is a bad thing because I really feel like it gives me purpose and drive. Like I genuinely love doing dentistry. Like I was doing a veneer prep yesterday. I was like, I love doing it. I just love it. I do think my career ambitions have hindered finding the right partner. The most important word, right partner. Has it put men off in the past? Yes. A big mistake that I made was is that I thought that as an alpha female and I assume myself to be alpha because of the way that I am in business and my career, I would need a man stronger than me. But what did that look like? That looked like someone that massively like dominated and toys lol. He doesn’t date anyone that’s like older than 25. But anyway, I thought that looked like somebody that was like just as successful or more successful than me in the business sense and could definitely take up that archetypal masculine role of like looking after me, looking after family. What I found, which was interesting, those men don’t like women like me and what I found. Even if I dated them, they ended up with a girl that was much more quiet, much more homely, much more. And when I went through it in therapy, they were like, You actually need someone that complements you.

And actually somebody can be an alpha male without shouting. It doesn’t mean to be your kind of like gorilla type character that walks into the room like this, kind of tapping his chest. And I did work. So in answer to your question, I did work. I looked in the mirror and I said, I’m the common denominator. I’m choosing this. These men, I can’t say to me, oh my God, they’ve all like, they’re not dating me for this reason, or they’ve left me for this 21 year old model or whatever it was. I looked in the mirror and I was like, You’re the common denominator. So you need to change who you choose and what you can do. And thankfully, I’m now in a loving relationship with a man who is masculine in many senses, but is also very supportive and chilled. You know, I’ve got that balance and he really accepts what I want and so forth. But I think that I don’t know because I can’t speak for a lot of women. And again, I’m trying to be diplomatic because that’s what can I do. So I want Nina to kind of come in here. I do think women want more from their lives, and I do think their standards have increased and that’s not a bad thing. And I also think that less and more and more women don’t want children. From the conversations I’ve been having. Yeah. Which is okay as well. But I don’t know really. I don’t know. I don’t know what it is about the whole men and women dynamic.

You just got me thinking and I think I agree and disagree with you. I yeah, I disagree that a man doesn’t want a woman like you because you’re alpha and dominant and high achiever and successful and beautiful and all those things. And it scares men off. I used to think that. But actually, I think if a man is confident and secure in himself, he’s not really going to care about whether you’re a CEO of a company or you’re doing whatever you’re doing. You know, like he’s not really going to care about the status that you have. He’s going to care about you and your ambition because ambition is always attractive no matter what you do, right? You can be ambitious in any field, but I don’t think it’s going to scare the right man off. The man who’s going to be concerned about that is probably someone who doesn’t feel confident in himself. And that’s projecting onto you.

Yeah, but but but I have seen situations in my friend groups where the woman was earning a lot more than the man and the the woman using that in arguments in situations. Now, why shouldn’t she why shouldn’t she use the man against the man? Right. Why shouldn’t she?

I’ve seen it.

I’ve seen I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it the other way around many times. Yeah. Men using money to control their partners or wives.

I’ve seen it with a female friend of mine.

Yeah, but my point is, somehow, in the. In the way that we grow up, when a man does that to a woman, it’s actually something that’s been going on for thousands of years. Conditioning, conditioning. But when a woman does that to a man, there’s an emasculation that happens.

Like a taboo.

Yeah. And, and so I’ve seen and I don’t know if this is, you know, true of lots of relationships or not, but in my friend groups, in the situations where the women are earning a lot more than the man, often it hasn’t worked. Doesn’t mean it hasn’t always. I know my.

Mom feels very strongly about this as well.

I know several where it has worked. I know several where it has worked, but often it hasn’t worked. And, you know, we can we can comment on I think it’s a combination of the conditioning and then suddenly new rules, new rules of engagement. Women are much more independent than they used to be. And, you know, things like swiping to the right man. I mean.

You mean tinder.

Tinder.

I think the disposability, the the disposability. Because you’ve met my parents, right? I think you’ve met my parents. And everyone’s always like, my God, like Rona’s parents. And then, like, Nina’s got the same with her parents and dynamic and we find like more and more and our friendship groups, we’re like, Oh my God, our parents are amazing. But like you said, it’s so funny. I was talking to Dr. Arum, who I went to the refugee camp with. He was like, literally my mom fell in love because she saw the neighbour from the window and then asked her friend to introduce. And that was it. I mean, in Iran, you know what I mean? And I think that the way that we are now as a society, as number one, very self-entitled. So I deserve better. Is there something better out there? Number two is the disposability. Number three, studies show as well that actually if you go to a supermarket and you’re given ten options, you’re more likely not to make a decision than if you were given 2 or 3 options. So the more options you have, the less likely you are to stick to something. And I think that’s the difficulty. We know that we can just give up. We know that we can walk away. And again, as I’ve talked about before, it’s the avoidance of pain as well.

Yeah, but.

You know, I’ll take this a step further. And I also think it’s to do with the way that Western society is very individual based. So the way we lead it, it’s it’s like community and society. It’s more about. But would you want live your life how you want? If you want to say something, say it. But sometimes and it’s a good thing because you’re concentrating on bettering yourself. But sometimes it can also be a bit selfish and narcissistic way of being because it’s all about you and your needs being met, and sometimes your needs being met could also mean you’re cutting off somebody else’s needs and there is less consideration for that. And that’s very prevalent in Western cultures. In eastern cultures, it’s less about that. It’s more about the society and community that you live in and not just the East. And there’s plenty of others. But I find that, you know to what you’re saying, so that disposability, all those things come also with that sort of I, I get to choose. I care less about someone else. It’s about me and my needs and me, me, me, me, me. That’s kind of how we’re driving. The society again has pros and cons.

It’s a common problem with women dentists here because dentists earn quite a lot quite early. Yeah, it’s a very common issue where you see the woman is the health care professionals.

Women struggle so much because they don’t necessarily date also within their pool.

No, no, but but what I’m saying is a 30 year old woman dentist generally is going to be earning a lot more than her than her partner generally. Yeah. The 30 year old man accountant is not going to because we earn a lot early. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a common problem with women, dentists, the problem it’s a common situation with women, dentists that they’re they’re the primary breadwinner in the family. And then that primary breadwinner is now going to have kids and stop earning for that period of time. And the number of women that I’ve had in here talking to me saying, yeah, I basically carried on working till the last moment, went to the hospital, had the baby came back, and as soon as they possibly could, got.

Back to Boss was.

Back at work, I think after a month after giving birth like literally. But you know, and that’s the really funny thing. And again, conditioning my mum taught me literally since I was about ten years old, always pick a partner that’s on par with you financially. And I’ve actually subconsciously always chosen that like I was. I was like, I’m not going to date this person because of X, Y, and Z, and you might that might be incorrect and actually narrowed my pool a lot more because I was like, it wasn’t me being money grabbing. It was like you said, like I want to feel that the dynamic financially is always fair. And also if I do go off and have a baby, you know that I’m going to feel looked after, you know? So I think that that’s interesting.

You say that I had a conversation with a girlfriend of mine and she is she was expressing that view. She’s like, so when I’m looking for a partner, she’s like, you know, as well as other qualities, she’s like, I want him to be financially stable. I want him to have a good job. And she’s like, And it’s not me being money grabbing. She’s like, Listen, if I was dating in my early 20s, yeah, it’s less important, just like because, you know, we all there’s this whole life ahead of you. So, you know, experiencing, experiencing and then as long as you have ambition, great. But she’s like, but now she’s like, when I’m dating and she is in her late 30s. So now when I’m dating men, she’s like, I want to see that they’ve achieved something in their life. And it’s not to do with money. It’s just it’s a sign of.

When I’ve spoken to Russian women about.

This, they’re very there we go. They’re very.

Very open about this subject.

Oh, yeah.

Transaction. Yeah.

It’s very transactional. They want their.

You know, Nina, Nina was we’re a part of a new members club and she was there and they were like some really young Russian girls like in their 20s. And they had a list of the guys they were dating and what they’d expect from them when. So there were things on there like Hermes handbags and stuff like that.

Yeah, we ever had that conversation. Yeah.

And you know, but you know, again, it’s like also the cultural thing, but they’re also open about it. And I think that there’s you can’t have again one of my male friends he’s naturally very attracted to Eastern European women. Nino knows him and he gets really frustrated because when they start making sort of like demands on the things that they need, like handbags, jewellery, etcetera, he gets really angry. But I’m like, but they’ve caveated that and you can’t change that. And fundamentally that’s their values. It’s fine, you know.

Can I ask you something?

Do you think Payman And you also I mean, you know, we’re talking about like, oh, but these women are having these demands. But is it just, you know, supply and demand, other men creating that platform and giving that. So women then like, okay, cool, then I’m learning to adapt to you. So if you want to buy my love, fine, here is how to do it. So what came first? You know, it’s the chicken and egg. Like, is it because there are men out there?

There’s definitely men do that. There’s definitely men out there.

There’s actually a website.

Called Seeking Arrangements. Do you know about this? No. So they’re actually going to do a documentary about it. I found this out. So a lot of Instagram girls and a lot of like the very attractive girls in London, they go on this website. There’s different tiers. It’s pretty much run by a guy in Dubai. So you get paid for either your company like. Should be like going for a walk with someone being seen with them in a club dinner. Et cetera. Et cetera. Things can go further depending on what pictures, Nudes. La la la la la. But depending on which one you want, you get paid. And obviously, a lot of these guys have a lot of cash, you know, in that part of the Middle East. And, you know, there was one girl that was on it and she was like, look, I get paid for my company. I’m paying off my student loans, student loans going to be done. And she very much sees it as a transaction. Do you see? I mean, I hang out with him. I don’t want anything more. My student loans going to get paid off, so I’m winning. Do you know what I mean? So it’s like it’s quite interesting, but I do think that that is ruining that sort of thing. Yes, it might be supply and demand, but that’s why I think people are finding it more and more difficult to have these connections. Anyway. We could go on about this forever. I want to cover Waka before we go as well. So tell us a little bit about Waka.

So do you want to start do you want to know why I started it? Yes. So I had before work, I had a fine dining restaurant. And so my my business partner is my brother. And he was actually the one who brought me on board with hospitality, hospitality, with hospitality and restaurants. And we had a fine dining restaurant. We had a catering company, we had an events company. And I just found myself being with fine dining, being so in the business that I was living and breathing. And I just, to be honest, wanted to do something that was a bit more.

You pivoted.

I just wanted to change my life a bit and be less, you know, hands on, hands on and run it more as a, you know, as a business rather than like living and breathing it as a retail, you know, But also, like a lot of things happen at the same time. You know, we had a rent review and, you know, the rent review was increased by like ridiculous amount, you know, London pricing, that’s what you get. So on top.

Of the criterion.

Do you know the criterion.

The criterion in.

Trafalgar Square?

Oh.

That was it. Yeah.

So, you know, a lot of factors came in at the same time. So we then were looking for a new project and then there was different ideas that we were playing around with and I think I wanted to stay more on the retail side of things. So we took hospitality there. So we looked into different chains, developing chains, what’s working, what’s not working, what is missing. So we started with Japanese, Peruvian fast food chain grab and go, I don’t like calling it fast food because they’re entitled something unhealthy. So grab and go Japanese, Peruvian food, you know, for amazing quick lunch. You know, you’re.

Because that’s.

Usually a very expensive fine dining thing, isn’t it? Exactly nice to have.

That as I think this is our fine dining experience coming in. Yeah, we’re like restaurateurs who started in fast food, so yeah, exactly. We wanted to bring that in and simplify the menu and make it available to everyone for a quick lunch. You know, you have five minutes to come and grab your lunch, you’re in the office, you’re working, bam, you come in. The cold food is freshly prepared in the morning and there it is in the fridges. The hot food is over, The counter waiting tab is super low because no one has time to wait around a bit.

I mean, it’s not quite itsu, but a bit like Itsu, right?

It’s the same.

Model. I really admire it. So, you know, because the quality compared to the price compared to the speed, it’s marvellous. Good. The combination.

Value for.

Money. Yeah, but, but all of it together, you know. You know, it’s. It’s all so good you feel like you can’t have all three at the same time, but they’ve managed to pull it off.

Exactly.

I know as well because obviously we pretty much live together during lockdown, you know, and I and I just bought the clinic, as you know. So that was really scary. Bought complete three weeks. We go into lockdown you know later Nino similarly with Waka had lots of sighs. Is there.

One branch or.

Three. Three.

You opened three at once.

Open three. Yeah. Wow.

And, and the one that I opened.

In the city as well.

The city, I think we went.

Into thinking about.

Opening three at one. Go in one.

Go. It wasn’t that once. Oh I see. So I opened one then like, you know, it was doing very well soon after I opened the second and then we opened a third site and then I think a month later or not even bam, like lockdown Covid.

And I was just like.

What was going through your.

Mind? Yeah, Yeah. What was going through your mind? Did you panic?

I.

I mean, I think yes, definitely. I was like, I mean, I, I rely on people being in the offices. I rely on people being on the streets. That’s my bread and butter. That’s my business. And then, you know, suddenly, from one day to the next, we’re like, okay, that’s it. People are not going to be on the streets. So I was like, okay, what am I doing now? I have three sites. I have I have to say, the UK government has been amazing for hospitality businesses for. Restaurants. I cannot talk about other ones because I do not know. But there was a lot of things put in place for me to be able to maintain my business and survive. You know, the rents were waived. There was a lot of things and it allowed me to, you know, keep operating. And then I was doing deliveries and online and all the rest of it. But yes, for sure I was shocked and I did not know what to do. And, you know, there was.

Is it still free now? Yes.

So I am very happy that. So I was going to grow them, me and my partner, who is my brother, we were going to grow them much faster. And the idea was to have a lot more now. But the lockdown and Covid, they’ve held us back. So now we are three.

Yeah.

This is a question for both of you. Actually. A lot of people, and including dentists, they like to follow follow what they would think of as a more entrepreneurial route. So within our industry, it could be like opening chains, as you know, of practices or like Payman, leaving dentistry altogether and working within dentistry that doesn’t involve kind of seeing patients. I think we’ve all been in a position where we’re like, the business is going to go under like literally I think all of us at some point. Uh, what advice would you give to somebody that wants to start their own business and what should they kind of prepare for in terms of like with regards to mental kind of proof and when those breakdown moments happen with regards to business, how can they what tools have they got to help overcome, you know, the adversity they’re going through?

It’s a tough question because there is so much, you know, like it’s what would I advise? I have to think about it. I think I think there is definitely I mean, from my point of view, there is definitely I thought like not knowing and there is a naivety about things and I thought things were going to run much smoother and it’s going to be, you know, but then once you’re faced with decision making and then you’re like secure a site and then there is like little problems arising, then there is problems coming in that you weren’t even aware of. And then you just like in the deep waters and you’re like, okay, I need to learn how to swim or I’m drowning. So I find with entrepreneurial, you can’t really learn from anyone else. And I don’t know how you feel because obviously you’re an entrepreneur and so are you and I. In my personal experience, no matter, I can admire what you do and I can, you know, follow it step by step. But in my personal career, when I’m faced with things, it never kind of translates. I feel like you learn on your experience solely. Yeah, because it’s so difficult.

Some things you can’t teach. You’re right. Yeah. And I actually.

Think messing up is one of the best ways to learn. I mean, you don’t want to.

But that’s how you learn. Yeah, I agree with you.

That’s kind of the point that was making. But it’s a funny thing because you have to be very optimistic to want to start your own business, but at the same.

Naive.

Well, naive, naive and optimistic. But also, if you want to survive, you have to have a huge capacity for pain. Yes. And the two don’t sit very comfortably with each. That’s what I’m.

Finding at the moment.

Yeah.

Just sorry, just to add to what you saying, there is something I think it was in Plato’s Republic that I was reading and it says, definition of success is not all the everything that went well. The definition of success is getting knocked down and being able to stand up again. And yes.

And we hear that time and time again. It’s about how.

Things I would warn against if someone wants to start a business is jumping on the latest bandwagon. True? Because by the time you get yourself organised, that bandwagon will have gone past you. You know, like, I don’t know, we could easily jump into a charcoal toothpaste. Number one, you’ve got to believe in the man. But you know, people are doing it right now. People are jumping into these teeth whitening lights and all that and bandwagons come and go trying to jump onto it. You have to be extremely quick and extremely well funded to to actually catch that wave. Normally, by the time you do the thing, the wave passes you by and there’s someone else has caught the wave.

But I find that is a bit anxious. That’s that.

Comes positive.

Well, it comes from like more of an anxious type of place where you’re like, Oh, I have to do something. What’s happening right now? Let me jump onto that. Rather than it being like, okay, I believe in this product. Let me like or this is something I’m working, but you.

Really see like, I mean, if you watch The Apprentice and Dragons Den, it’s unbelievable how many entrepreneurs going on having zero idea about a business idea or like what they’ve created. There’s so many on there. They don’t know their financials. They don’t the.

First time we’re all.

Like, Yeah, I kind of know you.

Say that, but as well, like I’m really lucky, obviously, because I’ve had ads and Simon who are so clued up and again. I think the perfectionism, like the Dental perfectionism.

That’s not your.

First thing, though. You know, Your first thing was your business, your practice. Yeah. And and if you look, I don’t know, but if we asked you, did you understand that the balance sheet and the cash flows and did you understand all that?

I’m still trying to get a hold of it. Grew up a bit. I mean, but I know. I just know how to do it, you know, the first time.

It’s very difficult with all of those things.

That’s what I mean. You learn as you do it. Nobody really like again, like we can learn how to like do an Excel sheet and then you’re like there with your own balance sheet and you’re like, What? It’s very different.

And persistence, I say persistence probably more important.

Than and.

Consistency. You always say consistency, consistency.

But also consistently doing the right thing and knowing when to pivot. That’s my most important thing because you can’t consistently be doing the wrong thing and then expecting a different outcome. Definition of insanity, by the way. But it’s about being consistent, persistent, but knowing when to pivot. Now, we’ve run out of time. So thank you so much, Nina. It was incredible to have you today. Nino is, as I said, a psychotherapy and training. So watch this space as she becomes one of the most famous ones in the country.

Too much pressure. And I think I’d.

Rather stick with entrepreneurial.

Things.

And Payman and I always ask our guests a question. Yeah. Um, so and I never plan people, um, with this. So let me get this. Da da da.

Nina, what was your worst day in business?

Oh, God, I had so many. I’m so open about it. There is so much money I’ve lost. There’s money I’ve made. There’s been like roller coaster. There’s been days when I was like, okay, I want to shut it all down. I just don’t know how to. And there’s been days when I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. Why would I ever want to shut.

This agony and.

Ecstasy, right? I mean, I’m sure you know it, right?

Absolutely.

So, Nino, if you could be remembered for one thing, what would it be?

Oh, my God. This podcast. Yeah.

Okay. There we go. No, go on, go on.

Um, if I could remembered, for one thing.

Like people like Nino’s past, this is it, like, definitely.

Um. I don’t know. It’s a tough one.

I can ask you another one if you want. Hold on a second. What are you most proud of?

I’m I trying to be a good person. So I guess I’m proud of just being empathetic to people, I guess. Yeah, I think that’s what it is. I’m I whenever something happens, I always try and see why did the person do what they did. I try and understand it from their perspective and have an empathetic approach. And that way, you know, you don’t get yourself into all sorts of trouble. So I guess, yeah, I would say yeah.

Amazing. Well, she is a thing. Empathy. That’s what I’m going to remember her for. Thank you so much, Nino, and please follow like and subscribe. Our channel Payman and I are on a mission to make sure that people get the access and tools to mental health support. So please, please, it’s so important to us.

Thank you so.

Much. So much.

Thank you so much for having me. I mean, you’re a huge inspiration, both of you, and I’m happy that you’ve asked me to be on here.

Thank you. Bye.