Laura Horton: We want patients to get their treatment plans quickly. Momentum is key. If they’re just sitting there in a pile on the dentist [00:00:05] desk, we’ve become nagging, nagging wives at work as tcos if we’re female, have you done it [00:00:10] yet? Have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? No one wants that. It’s another system. It’s another process. It [00:00:15] does improve your conversion rate, not necessarily the speed of it, but it does increase your [00:00:20] conversion rate because of the way that it the way that it’s done. But slow is best. Sometimes things are just too fast. [00:00:25]

Intro Voice: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to [00:00:35] go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Laura Horton onto [00:00:50] the podcast. Laura, I’ve known for a long time, so I think the first time I met [00:00:55] you was at, uh, Ashland. Uh, Rahul’s practice in Hartford. Yeah. [00:01:00] Back in it would have been my estimation of that is 2010. Were [00:01:05] you there?

Laura Horton: No earlier than that.

Payman Langroudi: Are you left by then? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. All right then, 2008 [00:01:10] call it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. It might have been maybe more 2007, [00:01:15] 2008. When did you start enlightened?

Payman Langroudi: 2001. But I remember coming to the [00:01:20] course with our Cosmedin stuff and Cosmo. Then we started around 2007. [00:01:25]

Laura Horton: It probably was around then. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. That’s where I first met Prav [00:01:30] as well.

Payman Langroudi: I think what I remember was a well-oiled machine. Um, [00:01:35] I’d seen practices like that in the West End and stuff, but never, never in [00:01:40] the middle of nowhere. Like, by the way, I know Hartford’s not the middle of nowhere. Yeah, but, you know, as a local practice, [00:01:45] I’ve not seen a practice like that. And I’d been to loads and loads of practices. And [00:01:50] I remember meeting you first. You were the first person I met, right? And [00:01:55] I remember thinking, wow, what a team these guys have, like what training they’ve done. [00:02:00] And I don’t know, later on I listened to your pod with Sandeep. [00:02:05] I think I got out of that, that you were the reason why everything was so good in the practice. I [00:02:10] can’t remember, I can’t remember exactly. Um, but anyway, since since then Laura’s, [00:02:15] you know, done a bunch of jobs, but now Horton consulting really probably [00:02:20] the first sort of academy, if you like. The first organisation that would teach people [00:02:25] how to become CEOs. And timing was excellent, I guess, Laura, because [00:02:30] Tcos have become a gigantic part of Dental practice. Um, I’m sure [00:02:35] you know, there’s now lots of different people doing this sort of training, but you [00:02:40] were the first that I remember doing it. Yeah. Um, and we would definitely [00:02:45] get into that. But let’s just start with the backstory. Where did you grow up? How did [00:02:50] you end up in Dental? Why?

Laura Horton: Um, [00:02:55] so how I ended up in Dental was purely [00:03:00] because I had dropped out of my college course, and [00:03:05] my dad went mental. Yeah. And said, you’d better get yourself a job. And [00:03:10] I was like, okay. And I where we lived, there was like a community [00:03:15] centre. There was a Sainsbury’s Chinese fish and chip shop. I used to [00:03:20] work in the fish and chip shop, dentists, doctors and that’s where we were as a family in this [00:03:25] dental practice. Tiny little place. Where was it in Bishop’s Stortford. And [00:03:30] also there was a pub and I’m going to admit to underage drinking. [00:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: And.

Laura Horton: Fake ID was a thing back then. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Still is is it? [00:03:40] Yeah, of course.

Laura Horton: So I don’t know. I feel sorry for kids these days because I just used to photocopy [00:03:45] my driving license and changed the it’s got.

Payman Langroudi: No it’s got to be more digital isn’t it. Again.

Laura Horton: Um, [00:03:50] so I was going to the pub and I saw in the window they were looking for [00:03:55] a receptionist and I thought, oh, I can do that easy. And I went in and [00:04:00] applied for the job, got to Bradbury, got to be, as we used to call him. Um, [00:04:05] he said, would you like to be a dental nurse? And I thought, yeah, why [00:04:10] not? And I fainted within a few days, passed out on the floor. [00:04:15] And he wasn’t only a dentist, I don’t know how old he was when he actually started [00:04:20] working, but he did dentistry. Medicine. Max Fox [00:04:25] I think his parents were loaded, so I reckon he’s probably about 32 [00:04:30] by the time he actually finished uni. And then he just as you did quite easily just [00:04:35] set up this practice. Yeah. And he also used to get a lot of referrals. So the [00:04:40] reason I fainted is he was showing me this impacted lower rate or.

Payman Langroudi: Drilling [00:04:45] the bone.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And you know he’d he’d got it all ready you know have a good look in here [00:04:50] and you could see it lie in there and that’s it. Oh I was gone on the floor and the [00:04:55] patient was sedated and everything. And the dental nurse, Alison, who’s one of my great [00:05:00] friends to this day. Yeah, she put me in the recovery position. I remember coming round and her [00:05:05] taking my gloves off, and they were soaked with sweat. And then I felt really ill afterwards, I [00:05:10] got this horrendous headache and went home, and I was so embarrassed to go back the next day [00:05:15] and my mum was like, you’re going back? And I was like, oh, but I’m just really embarrassed. My mum really embarrassed [00:05:20] and she said, it doesn’t matter. My mom was a nurse. She said, everyone faints in this line of work, get back to [00:05:25] work. I was like, okay. And I went back.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum sort [00:05:30] of the enforcer in the house or.

Laura Horton: No, my dad.

Payman Langroudi: My dad was. Yeah. [00:05:35]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it you, by the way, in your house?

Laura Horton: It is Payman. [00:05:40]

Payman Langroudi: I kind of figured that, but I.

Laura Horton: Try to be very delicate. [00:05:45] Mhm. Well, maybe come back to that. Okay. Um, but yeah, my [00:05:50] mum I guess if my mum, she’s always had a message which is do [00:05:55] what makes you happy. And this was, you know, one of those times with this college course I wasn’t happy, [00:06:00] I hated it, it wasn’t what I expected it to be. And I was [00:06:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: What was the cause?

Laura Horton: I was like, travel and tourism. Um, I decided to do it because [00:06:10] I liked holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s a good a reason as any, right? Yeah.

Laura Horton: I didn’t know what I wanted to do. [00:06:15] I had no clue what I wanted to do in life. So I thought, well, I like holidays. I’ll go and do this. [00:06:20] Travel and tourism. Oh, it was the most boring thing I’ve ever experienced in my life.

Payman Langroudi: At what point did you [00:06:25] switch from someone who drops out of courses, didn’t know what you want to do with yourself to this sort of hyper focussed person [00:06:30] that I met.

Laura Horton: I, I would say when I started working as a dental [00:06:35] nurse. So Doctor Bradbury and then. Yeah, straight away Doctor Bradbury said, right, all my nurses are [00:06:40] qualified. You don’t have to be qualified. But all my nurses are qualified. So you’re starting [00:06:45] the course. So off I went and did the course. Welwyn Garden City every Wednesday [00:06:50] I had my driving license and I took one of the other girls from the practice who wasn’t yet able to [00:06:55] do the course because she couldn’t drive. So we went together. So that was quite nice. So I did [00:07:00] that. And I kid you not, the day I got my letter through saying I’d qualified, [00:07:05] I actually had to go home at lunchtime to check the post because that night [00:07:10] I was starting my radiography qualification at, um, Hertfordshire University. [00:07:15] He’d already booked me on it. So you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Fast tracking?

Laura Horton: Yeah, he was really into [00:07:20] progression and development of his team and this is way back when. So [00:07:25] I loved that and that’s why I wanted to work there. I really enjoyed that. [00:07:30] Mhm. That you know he wants to keep pushing you on. And then while I [00:07:35] was there two of the nurses went on to do one hygiene, the other [00:07:40] hygiene and therapy. So he was very much about supporting and moving you forward. He [00:07:45] didn’t just want a dental nurse or being a dental nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I really want to ask [00:07:50] you this question because you’ve seen dental practice from lots of different angles. [00:07:55] Then you’ve seen a lot of dental practices, albeit I reckon the ones that you’re seeing, they [00:08:00] probably skew a certain way because of, you know, TCO. Right. So you’re not going into [00:08:05] loads of full on NHS places anymore. No, but I guess you must have worked in a few, right?

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:08:10] definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So the question of progression. Yeah, I come across too [00:08:15] many dentists that when I ask them this question they sort of say no, the best nurse is one who doesn’t want to [00:08:20] progress and, you know, someone who will turn up, do the work, learn how [00:08:25] to to handle that dentist and not want progression. Because there isn’t [00:08:30] much progression in most dental practices, is there? I mean, you’ve just outlined a nice sort of, you [00:08:35] know, radiology qualification or hygienist or I guess there’s dental health [00:08:40] educator type things as well, therapists and all of those. Right? Yeah. [00:08:45] But the question is, having seen lots of practices, have [00:08:50] you got an idea of best and worst practice? And what are some of the stories of bad [00:08:55] practice? I mean, this one you’ve told of good practice? Yeah.

Laura Horton: It’s interesting [00:09:00] because that first practice that I worked in, it was your bog standard general [00:09:05] dental practice, NHS, NHS Monday to Thursday, Friday [00:09:10] was and Saturdays were private. But it was the same thing, just a different price. [00:09:15] Yeah. It was, you know, the same materials. There was no. What are we talking.

Payman Langroudi: 90.

Laura Horton: Something [00:09:20] talking. Yeah. Late 90s. Yeah there was, there was nothing different in it. Doctor [00:09:25] Bradbury’s no longer with us. And, you know, I don’t think it would be being [00:09:30] disrespectful to say that he did end up [00:09:35] at the GDC because of the dentistry. It was fast paced. Rct in 15 [00:09:40] minutes. What on earth that about? Do you know what I mean? But when it’s your first practice that you’ve worked in, [00:09:45] you don’t know that anything’s wrong. And there were things like, we had to wear [00:09:50] the same pair of gloves all morning and just wash them with alcohol. So when I started this college course [00:09:55] and I’m like, hang on a minute. And me being me, I’ve always been very outspoken. Say what [00:10:00] I think, going back to him and saying, doctor B, we’re not meant to be doing this. We’re not meant [00:10:05] to be doing that. We’re not meant to be reusing this. He’d say, it’s my practice and that’s what [00:10:10] I’m doing. And it did cause me to leave. Mhm. And [00:10:15] I felt really bad because he’d paid for all this education, but I knew there were things in that practice [00:10:20] that were wrong.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting isn’t it. Because you wouldn’t imagine someone who’s saving on gloves [00:10:25] would pay for the nurse’s education. Yeah. But he was doing that. He was very forward thinking [00:10:30] in one way. Yeah. And yet he was pinching pennies on on the other end. Yeah. [00:10:35] So interesting.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Really interesting. Like his his mindset I don’t know, it may [00:10:40] just be the culture that he’d been ingrained into I don’t know. And what I can say [00:10:45] is two of the dentists, including doctor B, who no longer are no longer with us, both of them ended [00:10:50] up in, you know, at the GDC. I don’t know, was it the pressure on the NHS, [00:10:55] 70 patients a day, you know, it was mental. And I used to get told off for talking to [00:11:00] patients, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That was all free. So it’s the one thing we encourage [00:11:05] now. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Laura what are you talking to this patient for? [00:11:10] Oh, they’re just really nervous, you know, and you get instruments thrown at you and things. [00:11:15]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, back then, back then.

Laura Horton: It was fine. Yeah. You know, and.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:11:20] other examples you’ve seen, I mean, for instance, other examples, this focus on the price of stuff. Yeah. Obviously [00:11:25] in our world it’s a major issue isn’t it. People. People worry about how much each thing costs them. Yeah. [00:11:30] So on um. It’s weird. Because it’s one of the only sort of moving parts that a dentist’s can [00:11:35] can touch. It’s hard to reduce staff costs or building costs, but somehow [00:11:40] material costs you can. I had a buddy. He had the bright idea of stick 3 [00:11:45] or 4 of those pink mouthwash tablets into a jug. You know, fill the [00:11:50] jug up with pink pink water, then pour it out to save on mouthwash tablets.

Laura Horton: So [00:11:55] silly. It’s so silly because I’m sure we’ll get to this. But if you implement [00:12:00] the TCO role and use my methods, you just make money easily. There’s so many ways practices [00:12:05] are losing big bucks. Like stop concentrating on these little cuts here and there. It’s silly. [00:12:10] But back to your question. I think it’s really important to progress [00:12:15] your team. It’s all about culture. And I think as dentists, you’re [00:12:20] your hickory professionals, your course junkies. You’re always learning. Yeah. And [00:12:25] isn’t it great if your team are inspired by that and also want to do well? Don’t get [00:12:30] me wrong, if there are people that don’t want to do anything, fine, leave them to it. The world is made up of different people, [00:12:35] but I think it is really important to offer progression. So after I [00:12:40] left doctor B, I went and temped as a nurse and.

Payman Langroudi: Loved lots and lots.

Laura Horton: Of [00:12:45] loved it. Yeah. Did you loved it? I was the kind [00:12:50] of nurse I can nurse with anyone because it’s all about communication. So I was quite happy to come [00:12:55] into your clinic for a day. Right? Okay. Payman, this is the list. What do you need do do do do do and [00:13:00] sort of run the show, as it were. Which is what dentists want. Dentists want their nurses to run the show. They should [00:13:05] do. If they don’t, that’s another discussion. Yeah, but I love Tampin, so I [00:13:10] could be in community in Hackney. I just used to drive into London in my little car with my A [00:13:15] to Z on my steering wheel, you know, and I’d pre-planned all the pages I needed to turn over [00:13:20] the night before. And I just think that’s mad now. I couldn’t do that now, driving with an eight, is it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you [00:13:25] turn up to a practice? Sometimes within the first five seconds you get a vibe of [00:13:30] is it a happy place or isn’t it?

Laura Horton: Totally. And I’m really impacted by [00:13:35] that as a person. Wherever I go, I can be like, whoa, this isn’t good here.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you can just [00:13:40] feel it straight away. You can feel it. And the opposite, of course.

Laura Horton: Absolutely. You can just get excited by it. [00:13:45] So yeah, I think if people don’t want to progress their team, [00:13:50] I think that’s I think that’s an issue and I’m recruiting at the moment. So I’ve got [00:13:55] a practice that’s opening in a few weeks. My first practice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing.

Laura Horton: It’s [00:14:00] opening in a few weeks. It should have been open sooner, but that’s down to the CQC. Amazing [00:14:05] that they’re so. I am just currently, right now [00:14:10] inundated with applications for trainee dental nurses. [00:14:15] And I’m like, whoa, I’ve had to think fast on my feet about this, because the amount of applications [00:14:20] that have come through has surprised me. We already have one outstanding [00:14:25] dental nurse experienced. Fantastic. We were going to [00:14:30] employ a second, but because we’ve had this delay, we were like, should we go back to our original plan now [00:14:35] of looking for a trainee because we’re going to have the time. And so I’ve had to think on my feet, and [00:14:40] I will confess, I’ve stolen this from a client that I worked with for many years. Her name’s Naomi, [00:14:45] and she’s a lovely lady, but she once did an event for our trainee dental [00:14:50] nurses. Get them all in one room, tell them what it’s about, what their progression is, how it’s going to work, [00:14:55] and then move forward with interviews from there. Really sort of screen people. Yeah. [00:15:00] So I’m screening them already or indeed with a few questions. And [00:15:05] I’ve put this very quickly, put this event together 530 Tuesday night, fill in this application [00:15:10] form and confirm you can come. So what I’m putting together for this presentation is actually [00:15:15] about progression. We don’t just want to support you to qualify. [00:15:20] We want you to qualify and be an amazing dental nurse. From that moment you qualify because [00:15:25] that’s a problem as well. It’s a bit like driving. I feel some people are taught just to pass. [00:15:30] They’re not taught all the skills they need. So we want you to be an amazing [00:15:35] dental nurse, working with all the clinicians within our practice. And then from that moment [00:15:40] you qualify, get your GDC number. You’re then contracted as a dental nurse and this will be [00:15:45] your progression path. There’s already one who’s put I want to be a hygienist. Fantastic. [00:15:50] Come on then.

Payman Langroudi: Work towards.

Laura Horton: That. Brilliant. Because we’ll have you back as a hygienist. [00:15:55] Yeah yeah yeah. And and that’s the type of person I am. I want [00:16:00] to work with people that want me to do well. I think that’s really important. [00:16:05] I remember one practice I worked at and they brought in appraisals, [00:16:10] so it’s the first time we’d ever had appraisals. And I’m going back in time. And [00:16:15] one of the questions were, oh, you know, what are your goals for the next five years? And I said, [00:16:20] whatever. I said, you know, I’d love to go travelling. I didn’t mention anything about hygiene or therapy, [00:16:25] but I know I definitely said I want to go travelling. And then from the appraisals they gave everyone a [00:16:30] pay rise and. Me with my skills got the lowest pay rise because of course [00:16:35] there’s a team. Let’s not forget, we all discuss this. I was livid and I said to the manager, why [00:16:40] have I got the lowest pay rise? She said, because you’ve said you want to go travelling [00:16:45] well. And I was like. Ridiculous, you [00:16:50] know. I then left yeah. I was like, right have that is my [00:16:55] notice. Goodbye. I’m not working in this place any longer. On that you went. Yeah. It was like the icing [00:17:00] or the cherry on the cake, I say. Anyway, working there, I was like, just go away. I [00:17:05] just can’t be in this place. It’s toxic. Yeah. Um, at that time, I was also doing my oral health education [00:17:10] qualification. I was funding it myself. There have been really difficult about it. So [00:17:15] there were lots of things. And that was the final. I was like, oh, why.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me more about this practice? [00:17:20]

Laura Horton: So I am opening a practice in Colchester with [00:17:25] Free Dentists and partnered with them. Yeah, all equal partners and [00:17:30] myself and Katie are going to be working in the clinic. Andy and Daniel, [00:17:35] well Andy will for some implant cases. Daniel’s not at the moment, but [00:17:40] he might see the bright lights and be swayed over. We’ll find out. And [00:17:45] yeah, they’re really lovely. I’m the eldest, which I find quite hilarious. Um, [00:17:50] but yeah, they’re really great. And I had an opportunity to work with them for a year, actually, not with [00:17:55] treatment coordination. I was supporting them with their management and restructuring. They’ve got two [00:18:00] clinics, and I worked with them for a year right up to the pandemic. [00:18:05] So probably a couple of weeks before it’s probably the end of the February [00:18:10] before. I was sat with them and we were all like, is it going to happen or not? And I [00:18:15] remember Andy had just exchanged on his house and I was about to exchange on a house, and [00:18:20] me and Andrew were both like, shit, we’re both about to double our mortgages like [00:18:25] it’s the world’s going to end and all this stuff. Yeah. So I worked with them right up to them, [00:18:30] but I had a fabulous insight into how they ran their business. [00:18:35] Yeah. And it was fantastic. There weren’t any recommendations [00:18:40] I could make to them about their partnership, their set up and the way that they ran their [00:18:45] business. They’re already doing it all. And Andy and Katie are brother [00:18:50] and sister and they’ve all known each other many, many years. So they’ve got a really successful partnership [00:18:55] already, which I thought was how did.

Payman Langroudi: The conversation come about to open a new business together?

Laura Horton: So [00:19:00] I’ve always kept in touch and actually we’ve all moved there as a family to [00:19:05] the practice as well because it was local, so it was a right result as well, working with the local practice instead of travelling. [00:19:10] So what’s happened is since I had my little boy, I needed a new dentist [00:19:15] and I was saying to ash, like, it’s a two hour round trip. Like, I can’t [00:19:20] keep coming to see Luke for a check-up for a two hour round trip. I can’t bring a child like that distance either. [00:19:25] So I politely moved practice and all my family’s gone there, and [00:19:30] we’ve always kept in touch because I really liked them and got on really well with them. And I’d say that about [00:19:35] a lot of my clients. You do end up having a relationship on a different level. It’s not just [00:19:40] purely business friendship. Yeah, it’s a friendship. You know, one client who I’ve worked with for years has messaged [00:19:45] me today. My little boy was in hospital yesterday and he’s seen that and said, oh gosh. And you [00:19:50] know, he’s his daughter’s unfortunately in hospital and he’s oh my gosh, what’s happening? And he’s [00:19:55] sharing all that with me. So I feel really lucky to always work with such fantastic people. [00:20:00] So we’ve always got kept in touch. I’d say Andy and myself have always got on very [00:20:05] well because we’re very similar in personality, quite direct people.

Laura Horton: And he called [00:20:10] me up and said, we’ve got this situation, and the situation is that they’ve bought [00:20:15] a building for a third clinic in Colchester. The idea being Katie’s going [00:20:20] to be the main person working there. She lives in Mersey, so it’s like 20 minutes. She’s [00:20:25] got three young children. It’s going to be better for her work life balance, but it’s not [00:20:30] happened. It’s not come to life. And the reason for that is her son has got cystic fibrosis, [00:20:35] so he’d been quite poorly. So this is 2022. So he’d been quite poorly [00:20:40] in hospital a lot. So it hadn’t sort of got off the ground. So he said to me we are [00:20:45] looking at getting a fourth partner. And I wondered if you knew any dentists. And [00:20:50] I said, oh, I don’t know. I said, it might be quite uncomfortable because people I do know [00:20:55] are more associates, so I wouldn’t want to upset any apple carts. But let me have a think [00:21:00] about it. I then went on holiday, so it was. Yeah. October 22nd [00:21:05] went on holiday with my husband just to Centre Parcs and I said, this phone call with Andy, [00:21:10] this is what they’re thinking of doing. And I’m thinking, why can’t I be the partner? And [00:21:15] my husband said, well, why can’t you? And I said, well, of course I can. And I’m still GDC registered. So that’s [00:21:20] not an issue, you know? Of course I can.

Laura Horton: But it took me probably about another month [00:21:25] to speak to Andy and sort of, sort of pluck up the courage. Really? Yeah. [00:21:30] So I spoke to him and, um, have you found anyone yet? And he’s like, [00:21:35] oh, no, and all this. And I’m saying to myself, just say it, Laura. Just say it, just say it. [00:21:40] You’ve got nothing to lose. Just say it. And I went, okay, so I’m just wondering, could I be the partner? And he said, [00:21:45] I was hoping you were going to say that. Oh, nice. And I went oh, fantastic. And [00:21:50] then so that was probably yeah mid-November, end of November [00:21:55] time. So then yeah, mid-December went round and we had [00:22:00] a curry, had a good chat about how we could all see it working because I have [00:22:05] my methods and my ways. They don’t [00:22:10] have a TCO, for example. They’ve not implemented that role in the way that I [00:22:15] would implement it. So they may have in one practice, they’ve got no option for it and another they have and they’ve got someone [00:22:20] who has has a title, but it’s not they’ve not been trained by me. It’s not the way that I do [00:22:25] treatment coordination. Yeah. So another example would be that within the plans [00:22:30] that they’d had made, there’s no consult room. So it was a conversation of well I’m having [00:22:35] a surgery, the TCA room.

Payman Langroudi: So you kind of wanted overall sort of creative [00:22:40] control over that part of it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I’m very much wanting to lead the patient experience and the [00:22:45] team training and what we’re delivering and what we’re offering to patients so that it is a really what. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: Is it like? Is it like a very high end beautiful whatever, or is it a what’s it like?

Laura Horton: I’m definitely [00:22:55] describing it already in information for patients. It’s a state of the art clinic. [00:23:00] Just because we’ll have all the mod cons, all the toys. But [00:23:05] I think really my message to patients is that it’s a comprehensive clinic and just trying to effectively communicate [00:23:10] what comprehensive dentistry is. I want patients to come in for general [00:23:15] dentistry and receive really good general dentistry to treatment, plan them really well [00:23:20] so that they’re not being patched over. They’re having long time care. That care has got guarantees [00:23:25] on it. They’re involved with the whole clinical team, not just one dentist, and [00:23:30] really ensuring that we’re improving our patients oral health and [00:23:35] working with that patient to do so. So we will require a certain type of patient [00:23:40] who wants that, you know, patients that just want to be patched over come in for an [00:23:45] emergency as and when it suits them, they’re probably not going to be for us. Yeah, [00:23:50] but we’re starting off. So with Katie obviously is the dentist. We have a hygiene therapist. [00:23:55] I’m going to be the TCA Payman because I thought it just makes sense. Although [00:24:00] I’ve got to train someone, you know, all the time I spend training someone trying to get this business off the ground, [00:24:05] I might as well just go and be the TCA myself. You recruited a lovely front of house person. [00:24:10] She’s got no clinical background, which is what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you’d recommend? [00:24:15]

Laura Horton: It’s what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: But in general, is that what you’d recommend? Um.

Laura Horton: Not [00:24:20] necessarily. I think it depends where you’re starting. I think the problem is, if you’re [00:24:25] trying to develop your clinic. It can be difficult to [00:24:30] have people on the desk that know too much. I think one of the greatest things that I was [00:24:35] ever told, which was by Bill Blatchford, who? Ash and Raoul. It was amazing. Working [00:24:40] with Bill Blatchford.

Payman Langroudi: Was solutions.

Laura Horton: Right? Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing, such an opportunity. [00:24:45] That was and I remember Bill saying to me, do you know what, Laura? You [00:24:50] need to think that you know nothing. That’s what you that needs to be your approach. [00:24:55] You know nothing, he said. And then you’ll find things easier. And that’s always stuck with [00:25:00] me. Why does it.

Payman Langroudi: Help to know nothing?

Laura Horton: So, for example, if you’re on the front desk, if you’re a TCO [00:25:05] and you know so much clinically, you end up having a clinical conversation [00:25:10] in a non clinical environment.

Payman Langroudi: Giving solutions that not necessarily the right solutions. [00:25:15] Yeah.

Laura Horton: And patients pre prescribe enough don’t they. Oh I’ve got a toothache I need [00:25:20] a crown or I need a filling. You don’t even know. You know what you need. So you’re prescribing. We don’t [00:25:25] need anyone else doing that at all.

Payman Langroudi: But for a TCO role [00:25:30] you’d rather that was a clinical person, right?

Laura Horton: Ultimately, the best treatment coordinators [00:25:35] are have a clinical background. Yeah. And that’s because you can then fully utilise them [00:25:40] in the role. I think it also depends on the dentistry that’s being offered as well. Because [00:25:45] if you’re using a TCO for a general dentistry workflow, it’s not the [00:25:50] end of the world to have someone non-clinical. If you’re using a TCO for implant dentistry, [00:25:55] rehab, dentistry, in my opinion, without a doubt, having someone who’s clinical [00:26:00] is just going to pay off because if a patient’s asking me a question, I can’t be [00:26:05] blagging it. I don’t want to make something up. And also I need to [00:26:10] be able to give them some kind of answer, or I need to tell them from [00:26:15] my understanding, what you’re saying is correct. But we will double check all of this.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:26:20] I’ve come across people who want non-clinical people to be the TCO. Yeah, [00:26:25] that sort of. They want executers like sellers. Yeah. And they [00:26:30] don’t think sellers come from dentistry.

Laura Horton: Well, I don’t think the TCO role is a sales role. And [00:26:35] I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not primarily.

Laura Horton: Right. And anyone who says that my [00:26:40] my comment back is not being disrespectful. But you’ve never worked with a TCO [00:26:45] and you’ve never worked in practice to know that that role is not a sales role. It’s an education and consent [00:26:50] role. And there’s nothing worse than having someone. In a sales role, pushing [00:26:55] patients into treatment because they’re going to get a commission. I just think it’s a recipe for [00:27:00] disaster. Come on.

Payman Langroudi: Right on to in a moment. But back to the practice. To the.

Laura Horton: Practice. [00:27:05]

Payman Langroudi: Do you have plans, like have you got plans to open [00:27:10] more of these or have you started with the end in mind or.

Laura Horton: We have started with [00:27:15] the end in mind. So that was one of the things that we agreed upon really early on, which [00:27:20] is our exit strategy. So that was really good. We’ve also got in place [00:27:25] legal partnership agreements. Again, they already had one. So that was like a box ticked for [00:27:30] me. But again, I’ve been in so many businesses where there isn’t [00:27:35] a legal partnership agreement.

Payman Langroudi: Common isn’t.

Laura Horton: It? It is really common. And I understand when you’re [00:27:40] starting up, it’s all rosy and it’s exciting and you love each other, but then [00:27:45] it’s like a divorce, isn’t it? Down. It’s a prenup basically down the road. Things could go wrong, [00:27:50] you know, everything’s covered in this agreement, you know, from death to incapacity [00:27:55] to work. You know, it’s quite dull reading, but it’s really important. So can [00:28:00] you share.

Payman Langroudi: The plans with me a bit or. No.

Laura Horton: On the partnership agreement?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, are you thinking [00:28:05] this practice and flip or are you thinking more of these? What are you thinking? So it’s a bit early, [00:28:10] isn’t it.

Laura Horton: But it is a bit early. And right now I’m perhaps quite mindful [00:28:15] of the existing teams within their two practices [00:28:20] to sort of talk about it. Okay. I don’t know if that would necessarily [00:28:25] go down too well, but what I can say [00:28:30] is and I sort of joked about it with Andy the other day, well, this is good for the next one. [00:28:35] Yeah. Do you remember when you said to me, Laura, why don’t [00:28:40] you just go to the bank, borrow loads of money and open loads of practices? Do you remember that? That’s when all that was starting. [00:28:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. I’ve always thought someone like you. Someone like Prav. [00:28:50] You know, I’ve always thought people who go into practices and train [00:28:55] teams on how to maximise and so forth. Of course, you can go work for a corporate [00:29:00] and do that on lots of practices, but I’ve always thought that’s a great, great person [00:29:05] to go and raise money and open a bunch. I mean, I’d say, of course it makes sense for you to go [00:29:10] in now. Yeah, but I wouldn’t have expected you to say you want to be the person who actually do the TCO ING [00:29:15] in this practice. Yeah. Although I do remember from your other interview that you were saying that’s your job that you love [00:29:20] the most, all the jobs that you did. Yeah. Um, even more than management roles.

Laura Horton: Oh, definitely. [00:29:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you like the patient interaction?

Laura Horton: I’m a people person, so [00:29:30] I, you know, I love I love being with people. So that’s why I’m a great TCO. [00:29:35] Yeah. Just sort of picking up on what you’re saying there. You know people that do training and such like I’m [00:29:40] all up for other people going out in the world setting themselves up, but [00:29:45] I think it does take a certain type of person to move [00:29:50] solely into training and consultancy. You know, I’ve been doing it for 15 years and [00:29:55] not had another job on the side. I left perfect Smile Studios [00:30:00] amazing salary, seven weeks, paid holiday a year, amazing [00:30:05] bonuses. The bonuses were sometimes double my salary [00:30:10] every month. Yeah, and I left that. And ash said to me, why don’t [00:30:15] you stay part time? We can make something work. And I said, no, I need to [00:30:20] just go out and do this to make it work. And that was, well, it’ll be 16 years in the summer. [00:30:25] That was.

Payman Langroudi: So how quickly did you make it work?

Laura Horton: Quite [00:30:30] quickly actually, I. And [00:30:35] I just sort of add to this as well. I had no money. I was in quite a lot of debt. [00:30:40] Mm.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about the first couple of clients and you know, how did it come about. Was [00:30:45] it people you used to come on their courses?

Laura Horton: No, not at all. Let’s just get [00:30:50] that out there. Um, because you couldn’t. Because you’ve got a contract, haven’t you? You’ve got a contract. Contract. [00:30:55] So what happens? First of all, interestingly, I also [00:31:00] do a lot of networking for Ash and Rahul, um, for the academy also as well. [00:31:05] I don’t know if you were there, but the first ever what’s now the dentistry [00:31:10] show, it was called The Aesthetic Dentist. Do you remember that? Yeah. So we had a stand [00:31:15] there, me and Cheryl Ash and income and there, [00:31:20] there was this couple that I met, and they have a consultancy in health [00:31:25] care and they introduce themselves. And I just kept their details, followed them on online [00:31:30] and everything. And I think it was, um, the guys [00:31:35] saw a post I’d put on, I don’t know what it was. Facebook was in its infancy as well, and he [00:31:40] reached out to me and said, we’ve got some work you can do for us. We’ll pay you a retainer fee, £500 [00:31:45] a month, do you want to do it? And I was like, um, okay, do you know what? [00:31:50] I will didn’t enjoy it whatsoever. What had happened was [00:31:55] that ash had opened some doors for me and with Ellis Paul at [00:32:00] private dentistry, and put me on to a phone call with him. And Ellis was lovely [00:32:05] and said, oh, I’d love some articles from you, Laura. I distinctively remember the phone call. Great guy, [00:32:10] amazing guy. And he said, you’re like an English rose and I’d love to [00:32:15] feature you. And I said, oh, thank you so much. And he really helped me. Like, English has [00:32:20] never been my strong point. But yeah, he was a really great and really helped me and put like a series [00:32:25] of articles in which kicked off. Yeah, I’m in PD this month [00:32:30] for February, this month for an article about the practice actually. But definitely [00:32:35] 15, 16 years ago, being in a journal was like a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: It was [00:32:40] gigantic.

Laura Horton: It was huge back then. So that definitely paved the way. The [00:32:45] other avenue that sort of kicked things off for me, which was really interesting. Well, [00:32:50] there were two. One of them was the amount of people from companies such as yourselves [00:32:55] who had been to the academy, who’d been into the practice. I’d taken [00:33:00] care of them, who were reaching out to me and saying, I understand you’ve left there. You’re [00:33:05] going out on your own. How can I help you? Mhm. Richard Collard was one of the first [00:33:10] to do that. And I was just getting more and more taken aback. The more it was happening. You looked after [00:33:15] me. Let me look after you. Yeah. What is it you’re doing? Let me spread the word. I’ll recommend [00:33:20] you to anyone. No one’s asking for kickbacks or anything like that. I was like, oh, wow. This. [00:33:25] It just goes to show how important relationships are. So I had a lot of support [00:33:30] in that direction. And then the other link that’s quite interesting was actually [00:33:35] through Prav. But he probably doesn’t know this, which [00:33:40] is that he came to our he came to the practice for a meeting about a website with afresh. [00:33:45] And what happened was Ash and Rahul took a bit too long [00:33:50] to decide and go back to him.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And when they went back to Prav, he said, sorry, [00:33:55] there’s already someone in the area who, like, we’ve taken someone else on basically [00:34:00] in your area, so it’s not fair. I don’t do that. And they were like, ah man. [00:34:05] And he said, I will put you on to my friend in Liverpool. Her name is Shelley. [00:34:10] She’s got this website company. So Ash and Rahul engaged with her. I had no idea who she [00:34:15] was. Suddenly I’m dealing with this, this company. Fine. Whatever. Really nice people. What [00:34:20] happened was just from speaking on the phone and the projects and getting things off the ground, I ended [00:34:25] up working quite closely with them. And Shelley, when I said, oh, I’m just let you know I’m leaving next week. [00:34:30] She said, have you got a website? I said, no, nothing. [00:34:35] And she said, give us your mobile number, I’m going to help you out. [00:34:40] So again, from our relationship, just purely professional. [00:34:45] And she became quite a good friend actually. She did have clients that were dentists. And she was [00:34:50] also saying, I’ve got a new client myself. I’m doing her website. This is it, this is Laura. Get [00:34:55] her into your practice, guys. You won’t regret it. So that that was really lovely as well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I’m going [00:35:00] to call it professional karma sort of thing. Yeah, definitely. It does go to show that, um, [00:35:05] and, you know, it pays to be nice. Yeah. But as [00:35:10] I say, my biggest memory of going to that meeting with, um, Ash and Rahul. [00:35:15] Yeah. Was you. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you were, you know, taking care of me. But there [00:35:20] was this feeling that it was just. It was like being in Novikov or something. And Novikov [00:35:25] didn’t exist back then, but, you know, it was it was just like, come in, cup of coffee. Sit [00:35:30] down. Have you got this? Is there anything else I can do for you? Yeah. Everyone being like you could see the staff [00:35:35] were happy but working. Yeah. And it just was a special, special vibe [00:35:40] in, in that practice, you know, and I’m interested in this sort of professional karma [00:35:45] thing you’re talking about because. Do you believe in karma? Karma?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Totally.

Payman Langroudi: Karma.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: So what? Supernatural karma.

Laura Horton: I believe that what you put out there comes back to you.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:35:55] we’ve discussed how practically it does. Right. But you believe, like, I don’t know, you [00:36:00] find £10 on the floor and you don’t hand it in and you buy something with it, and that thing messes [00:36:05] your life. Yeah. Like that’s.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do quite superstitious like that to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:10]

Laura Horton: I’d be like, oh I found a £10 note. Oh my gosh I’m so uncomfortable about this. Who can I give it to? I [00:36:15] wouldn’t take it I couldn’t I’d find a homeless person.

Payman Langroudi: Funny tangent. Do you believe in God?

Laura Horton: No. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, you see, that’s why I’m either. No.

Laura Horton: I don’t I [00:36:25] was I was raised a Christian.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Did you reject it?

Laura Horton: Some of my youngest [00:36:30] memories are sitting in a freezing cold church with my mum and then my mum. My mum [00:36:35] went off it, so naturally we did. Yay! But yeah, there’s some of my earliest memories. [00:36:40] Uh, and I’m. I’m Christian, I’m Church of England.

Payman Langroudi: You book.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move the story on from from from let’s let’s now get to the whole TKO game. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. [00:36:50] So I want to I want to hear these few things. Right. What are the typical situations [00:36:55] you come across? Practice doesn’t have a TCO. Once one [00:37:00] has an idea what it is. Yeah, I expect sometimes internally [00:37:05] you have to deal with politics. Mhm. And we see that a lot in dental practices. We see [00:37:10] sometimes two different power bases. Yeah. And I expect you’ve got a really good feel for that. You can feel [00:37:15] what’s going on. Yeah. How do you deal with that. How do you tell them. Who should [00:37:20] it be. Someone internal or someone external. Or is there resistance to changing [00:37:25] the systems? Do people even understand that people need constant training [00:37:30] rather than one off training? Yeah, because I hear that a lot. People say, come, come to my practice, teach my team [00:37:35] how to sell whitening. We do it. We get a little one blip for that month and then it goes back. Everyone goes [00:37:40] back to their old ways again. And, you know, people need constant training. Yeah. So some of the stories [00:37:45] about practices looking to take on tcos and the kind of solutions you have to put in place. [00:37:50]

Laura Horton: Yeah. So for me it’s all about making sure firstly that [00:37:55] the manager and clinic owner understand the role and what they want to do with it. So [00:38:00] interestingly, just this week I’m actually running something totally new for the first [00:38:05] time ever and I’ve called it a treatment coordination implementation sprint. And [00:38:10] it’s for managers and clinic owners to get the the ball rolling and get the roll going. [00:38:15] Because treatment coordination is a project. And in practice we start too many projects [00:38:20] and never finish any of them. Something I really dislike. I like to finish stuff and [00:38:25] I think we should work on one project, implement it, tweak it, and then happy days, then [00:38:30] move on to the next thing. In practice it isn’t like that. We’ve got too many plates spinning. [00:38:35] It’s very difficult for managers. Clinic owners come in, they have what I call [00:38:40] shower moments. Stop what you’re doing. Yeah, I’ve changed my mind. I’ve had this idea, but we’re doing [00:38:45] this yesterday. It’s me. I know it’s me as well, but as a manager, it’s very difficult. [00:38:50] And as team members, it can be very difficult. A lot of the team need to understand the why [00:38:55] behind everything. So that’s really important. And I would definitely say [00:39:00] that from the amount of calls that we do and Cheryl takes all the initial calls, she’s an amazing tseo. She [00:39:05] worked with ash right up until her maternity leave. I trained as a TCA. I’ve [00:39:10] actually known her over 20 years.

Laura Horton: Clinic owners that we talk to are all game. They’re all [00:39:15] excited. Yeah, but actually the communication back to the management and the team can sometimes [00:39:20] be lacking. That’s where we definitely step in and definitely help. [00:39:25] One of the other problems with treatment coordination. In my opinion it [00:39:30] should be internal. It should be internal recruitment. And that’s one of the things I’ve gone through it just this morning actually on [00:39:35] the sprint. This is the job description. This is your this is how you interview internally. This [00:39:40] is how you, you know, the copy for the internal advert. If we cherry pick, I can [00:39:45] tell you now your chances of the role being embedded long terme [00:39:50] are going to be decreased. And adding to that [00:39:55] then that TCO is not had any training and they’re just trying to do it off their own back which hats [00:40:00] off to them. It’s doomed. Mhm. There’s nothing worse than the team [00:40:05] saying oh Payman. He just sits around all day having cups of tea. Patience. [00:40:10] He’s not even doing anything when treatment coordination is hard work. Yeah. So [00:40:15] practices again get the role mixed up. You know [00:40:20] what is all this that’s out there. That oh Tko’s taking new [00:40:25] patient phone calls. That’s a receptionist job. That’s a TCI. I haven’t got time to take new patient phone calls. [00:40:30] I haven’t got time. If a lead comes through, it’s just going to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: To [00:40:35] chase it.

Laura Horton: Yeah, well, I’m not going to be able to call that patient. I’m seeing patients. So what am I [00:40:40] going to do? Call them at 6 p.m.? Sorry, you’ve already lost. You’ve lost that patient. You need [00:40:45] to respond to them quickly so the role gets misconstrued. It gets [00:40:50] mixed up. People take oh, that will be a TCO. That will be a TCO. How do TCO recently [00:40:55] say, well, I don’t think I’m a TCO. I think I’m a glorified receptionist. [00:41:00] I said, that’s for you to have a discussion with your clinic owner about. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. What’s best practice [00:41:05] that the TCO sees patients for appointments. Yes. That what free appointments. [00:41:10]

Laura Horton: Free consultations for high value patients and nervous patients. If you’re a practice that’s [00:41:15] supporting nervous patients, like proactively supporting nervous patients within your marketing, you [00:41:20] want them. You’re going to sedate them. That’s one of your usp’s.

Payman Langroudi: But but [00:41:25] but no role in actually following that patient up and getting that patient in. You’re saying that’s receptionist [00:41:30] job, but when when the practice isn’t doing that very well, you’re saying well.

Laura Horton: Fix the reception [00:41:35] team separately. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you, you deliver that too. Yes. Oh really? Okay.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So [00:41:40] we train teams to handle and convert new patient inquiries. Okay. And while everyone’s got [00:41:45] their strengths and weaknesses again it’s not fair on the reception team to be told you know or [00:41:50] I don’t like when people go on my reception team is shit. You know they’re crap at. Converting or what training have you given [00:41:55] them? And like you just said, what is it, just a half day training or a one day training? Who was the training [00:42:00] by? Was it someone who actually knows what they’re doing? Who’s actually done this for real life? Like it’s [00:42:05] not fair on them. And do you even have enough staff? Most practices don’t even have enough [00:42:10] staff.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a bugbear of mine. Yeah, it really is like, you know, why is it that Dental [00:42:15] practices are so undermanned? Yeah. I mean, you go to. I was telling someone [00:42:20] about the Ivy. Yeah. It’s not exactly high end restaurant.

Laura Horton: It’s lovely though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all right, [00:42:25] but it’s not. It’s not the high end restaurant. Right. You get your, I don’t know, shepherd’s pie for £18 or something. [00:42:30] Right. Lovely.

Laura Horton: Lovely though, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: That’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a I’d call it a [00:42:35] chain restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It’s fancy decor, whatever. But the number of humans. [00:42:40] Yeah. The staff to customer ratio is through [00:42:45] the roof. Compared to a dental practice in dental practices, there’s not enough humans. [00:42:50] Now we go back to the cost cutting part that, you know, [00:42:55] we. If you agree with me. Yeah. Um, it must be that [00:43:00] if we have more people working in practices, we’re going to do better, because, [00:43:05] you know, for me, the very obvious one is the nurse of the hygienist. So obvious [00:43:10] the hygienist should have a nurse so the hygienist can discuss whitening, discuss, you know, [00:43:15] high value items instead of cleaning up. Yeah. Something, you know, the hygienist should be [00:43:20] the one selling stuff. Yeah. Go. Go ahead. I don’t want to interrupt.

Laura Horton: And I think, [00:43:25] you know, Prav a degree as well. All these practices spending an absolute fortune [00:43:30] on marketing, and you haven’t even got enough staff to answer the phone. What a waste of money. [00:43:35] Practice is poor money down the drain. Now, I say, with my TCO methods, [00:43:40] I can make each dentist that treats high value patients 100 K within a [00:43:45] year easy. And I can because that’s how much money practices are pouring down the [00:43:50] drain.

Payman Langroudi: So okay, you go in, you ask some questions. Are you just naturally good at not [00:43:55] antagonising the people?

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’m on the side of the can.

Payman Langroudi: Be because it can be can it? It can [00:44:00] be, you know, when, when a when a when a call comes in who follows that up. Everyone looks at each other. [00:44:05] No one. How do you manage the sort of the politics of it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So in regards to myself [00:44:10] and my team, we are motivational people. We’re never there to put anyone down. So if [00:44:15] you know it has happened in the past, can you come in and read my team the Riot act? No, I’m not the one for you. Go [00:44:20] away. I’m. That’s not me. I need to sleep at night. I’m about saying. Right. Okay, [00:44:25] so these are the problems we’ve identified and I’ve come in to help you. [00:44:30] But we want to keep things simple. We want to systemise processes, and we want to make your life easier. [00:44:35] And if we need to do that in stages, that’s fine. But we need to achieve all of these things. [00:44:40] And I’m honestly here to help you. Let’s work through it together now, because myself [00:44:45] and my team, we are all from practice. The barriers are down. You know, we’re not [00:44:50] someone walking in with.

Payman Langroudi: A introduce yourself as someone who used to be a nurse and.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah yeah [00:44:55] yeah, yeah. So if that introduction hasn’t been made. Yeah, we’ll [00:45:00] make it now like we’re from practice. Everything we’re going through today I’ve personally experienced myself. [00:45:05] We are really good at handling objections from the team. And if we get objections. [00:45:10]

Payman Langroudi: What are the typical.

Laura Horton: Ones? I don’t think this is going to work. You don’t, you don’t. This. Our patients [00:45:15] aren’t going to like this.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say?

Laura Horton: I say, okay, tell me more. Yeah, tell me [00:45:20] more.

Payman Langroudi: See, I just go in and say you’re wrong. Yeah. No. I’m like.

Laura Horton: Tell me more, right? Because I think [00:45:25] and I say this about treatment coordination as well. If a team member has, [00:45:30] you know, stuck their neck up and said, excuse me, I’m a bit uncomfortable with this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: That [00:45:35] is a compliment to me or Liana because they’re comfortable [00:45:40] spoken up to. They’re comfortable to say it. Yeah. They’re not being difficult. They’re [00:45:45] comfortable. We encourage questions okay. Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: More. She says. We don’t have time [00:45:50] here. Patients won’t like that. What do you say?

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’ll say I do. You know what? I [00:45:55] understand how you feel. We’ve got a story for everything. Mainly Anna.

Payman Langroudi: Feel felt. Found that one. Love.

Laura Horton: Feel. Felt. Found. [00:46:00] Brian. Tracy. Yeah. So we have an answer [00:46:05] for everything. For every objection. Because we’ve done this so many times. And I [00:46:10] know things are also uncomfortable for some people. And what we’re also quite good at is saying what we’re [00:46:15] going to do is trial this. Let’s find out. You know, and another [00:46:20] thing that practices do a lot that we’re able to bring to the table is just because one [00:46:25] patient doesn’t like something, you shouldn’t stop doing it. Absolutely. There are loads of practices [00:46:30] that make this mistake so often. I also like to say, all right, team, are there [00:46:35] things you can think of that have actually been really good and you’ve stopped doing [00:46:40] them for some reason, but we don’t know why. But actually be good to bring them back. So [00:46:45] we’re very engaging in what we do and say, oh yeah, well, you know what? We used to offer everyone? Tea and coffee. But, [00:46:50] you know, one patient said they’d. Why would they want coffee? The dentist, so we [00:46:55] stopped at just one. Just one patient. How [00:47:00] many patients liked it? You know, so I think it’s a big mistake. A lot of businesses make [00:47:05] they don’t listen to the masses. They listen to the one and make decisions based on that [00:47:10] one, whereas ours always make decisions based on the masses. So so.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:47:15] get them on.

Laura Horton: Side, get them on side, which is the biggest thing.

Payman Langroudi: You do. The sort of internal advert for who’s [00:47:20] going to be the person who’s going to get promoted, I guess, to the job. Yeah.

Laura Horton: I [00:47:25] think the other thing we are very clear about is, you know, not cherry picking, [00:47:30] but giving everyone opportunity to also apply for the role of the TCO because [00:47:35] there are some people and I’ve been into practices and I’ve gone, oh, she’d be great as a TCO. Her [00:47:40] really? Why? Oh, this, that and that. I had not noticed that. So it [00:47:45] is important some people have got really good skill sets and we need to we need to bring out the best in some people. Some [00:47:50] people just haven’t been given opportunities. They’ve got low self esteem. They’re not sure about [00:47:55] going forward with them. We need to get those people on board as well. We need to bring out of them if it’s there. So [00:48:00] I think it is really important.

Payman Langroudi: In the selection process.

Laura Horton: We can do. Yeah. So what we tend to do is [00:48:05] speak to a clinic if they’ve already got a TCO, fantastic. Let’s just move forward with that. If you [00:48:10] need more TCO sessions or TCO growth, then we need to recruit another. So we’ve got we’ll [00:48:15] help you with that. As part of the onboarding to a six month program TCO growth [00:48:20] program. So it’s a six month program because it’s all about momentum [00:48:25] coaching and mentoring of the Tcos. It’s not a one day course. [00:48:30] Go back, implement it. Keep your motivation high. It’s about supporting [00:48:35] the TCO predominantly within the business to help bring everything to life. So [00:48:40] Liana, as part of our onboarding, will also help the managers put together their interview as well, [00:48:45] which is really lovely. We want to give that back to the managers. We want the managers to [00:48:50] be leading it because again, I think if our managers not understanding something and not leading it got [00:48:55] another problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ve got a clinician and his nurse who’s now the TCO because [00:49:00] he wants her to be the TCO or she wants it to be the TCO. They’re running off doing their own thing. The rest of the practice [00:49:05] is sat there going, oh yeah, what’s this about? Why why is she getting [00:49:10] to sit and drink tea? Let’s see where it comes from. Yeah. Of course. So to me, [00:49:15] to me, treatment coordination is it is a long time game. You need to get it right. We turn away [00:49:20] more clinics than we take on. Because they’re not ready. And it’s [00:49:25] like a patient going forward with a big treatment plan. They need to be ready. Their oral health needs to be right. [00:49:30] So therefore in a practice, your set up needs to be right. You haven’t got a consultation [00:49:35] room okay. That’s a problem. You know moving around surgeries isn’t [00:49:40] isn’t great. Yeah. It’s not going to work I do have a solution for that. But uh, [00:49:45] I’ve got a TCI program. So six months is three months and it’s for virtual [00:49:50] treatment coordination. So virtual free consultations. So it helps people get [00:49:55] get the ball rolling which is good I mean.

Payman Langroudi: But the you train them on photography [00:50:00] scanning.

Laura Horton: I used to do a lot of photography training. Not so much anymore. [00:50:05] Um, scanning. The companies themselves are pretty good at doing that.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:50:10] certainly that’s what they’re doing, right? They’re taking photos?

Laura Horton: Not necessarily. No. Oh, really? Yeah. Not necessarily. [00:50:15] The a lot of people have also started choosing Tkos [00:50:20] because they’re good at scanning. You won’t find in my job description scanning or photography [00:50:25] or anything clinical. I’m selecting Tkos based on their attitude, [00:50:30] their skill set. Absolutely. It’s all of those skills that come first. So we do [00:50:35] have a problem that we’ve got nurses who are being cherry picked for the role. [00:50:40] Oh, you can scan. You’re a TKO. Off you go and see a patient. And then they’re just sort of sat [00:50:45] there with them like, okay, what do I say now? Oh my gosh, this is really awkward. [00:50:50] And it’s so cold. It’s a cold. Much of it.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:50:55] the person’s, you know, are they are they meant for it and how much of it is trainable? [00:51:00]

Laura Horton: I do believe that skills can be taught. So listening, for [00:51:05] example, is a really important skill within treatment coordination.

Payman Langroudi: You can teach that.

Laura Horton: I feel you can teach that. I feel [00:51:10] I definitely learned that as a skill. I really worked hard on it. Yeah I would just [00:51:15] talk for England otherwise.

Payman Langroudi: So so so repeating back to people.

Laura Horton: Rephrasing yeah, [00:51:20] actively listening to patients, taking notes, interlinking. Yeah. [00:51:25] Coming back at different appointments and remembering different things. Yeah. Listening is definitely a really [00:51:30] important skill I believe can be learnt. I do feel it is about the personality profile [00:51:35] of the patient. So if you are an introvert you’re probably not going to be a great talker. That’s fine. There’s other things [00:51:40] you can do. Yeah. Also, we don’t want someone who’s bouncing off the walls, do we? Who’s uncontrollable. [00:51:45] Yeah. We need someone who can adapt to all personality [00:51:50] types. That is critical. You know, I’ve got to be able to adapt [00:51:55] for.

Payman Langroudi: That, isn’t it? Yeah. Prav scores very highly on that test, interestingly. [00:52:00] But what I found, look, we try and have like our team [00:52:05] to be super sort of service orientated and I’ve found some people [00:52:10] just are they’re trainable in that sense and some aren’t as [00:52:15] as much. It’s almost like a it’s the same word, but it means [00:52:20] something to be of service. You know, some some people enjoy being off service. [00:52:25] Yeah. To another person, another human. Yeah. And others see it as [00:52:30] like a chore or something. Yeah. And that if you could bottle that and understand [00:52:35] who that is. Yeah. That’s the right person to be a TCO right to take looking [00:52:40] out for, for the other person. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And it’s the same with the with the whole team. So I know, you know, [00:52:45] you had a fantastic experience when you came to the practice when I was the manager and TCO there. And probably at [00:52:50] that stage I’d imagine we’d gone down to one practice. So we, we did, um, well [00:52:55] they had three, then went down to two. So I was with them while we had the two. And I was managing actually [00:53:00] the Hornchurch practice. Hartford was nearer to me, but I was always in Hornchurch with ash, [00:53:05] and when they sold Hornchurch and we were just going to Hartford, [00:53:10] I was then ash gave me the option. He said, you can stay here with a new owner [00:53:15] or you or you come carry on in Hartford as the manager. And I was like, oh no, I’ll stay with you, ash. I don’t [00:53:20] want to be with anyone else. And, um, don’t divorce me. And, [00:53:25] um. You know, the the team there, the way we [00:53:30] interviewed everyone, for example, you know, I really I was quite, quite hardcore in an interview [00:53:35] getting making sure we’re getting the right people. I think that’s really important.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:53:40] do you mean by hardcore? Explain it.

Laura Horton: A lot of questions about scenario [00:53:45] questions, testing in interviews, you know, can [00:53:50] can you even type you know, give me examples if you haven’t got examples [00:53:55] that you can’t give me, I’m not going to employ you. Yeah. You’ve got to [00:54:00] test people in interviews instead of, oh great, you’ve got what we need. Crack [00:54:05] on, answer the phone. You had to give you another example. A new employee would not be allowed to pick up [00:54:10] the phone in our practice weren’t allowed. And the reason for that is our average new patient [00:54:15] spend was £14,000 for cosmetic dentistry, 25 K for implants. [00:54:20] So that’s a risk.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So we we wouldn’t let [00:54:25] people pick up the phone. So it was about explaining that to them as well. Like there’ll be things we won’t let you do [00:54:30] and there’s a reason for that. So then they’d have a hunger for that. Well I want to be able to pick up the phone. [00:54:35] I want to be able to. And it’s just about weeding the right people out, isn’t it? You know, [00:54:40] um, just recently recruiting a front of house person myself, it’s really interesting [00:54:45] how different people are on the phone versus coming in. And again, [00:54:50] you know, all this, oh, there’s no staff out there. Well, I’ve been inundated for [00:54:55] every role I’ve advertised.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well but but then you’ve got social media profile [00:55:00] and all that. No, no not like that.

Laura Horton: Indeed indeed.

Payman Langroudi: Oh okay. Perfect. Well, [00:55:05] another thing is any shortage of people, um, shortage of good people, I found not not [00:55:10] as good as I do.

Laura Horton: Think you’re right, though. It is. You’ve either you are either a people person or you’re [00:55:15] not. You know, if you are, you know, if you look at disk profiling, if you are that conscientious [00:55:20] person who likes detail, who, you know, you’re probably [00:55:25] preferred to be sort of on your own in an office kind of job. Yeah. You’re [00:55:30] not a front facing person. Yeah. Uh, and that’s just that’s fine. [00:55:35] If you want them for that role, then they’re not right for you, are they?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the things that [00:55:40] go wrong with echoes. Does the TCO sometimes sort of upsell something [00:55:45] that’s not not, not sort of the right thing to do or overpromise [00:55:50] or. Yeah, tell me some of the common mistakes.

Laura Horton: I’d say it all goes down to training. [00:55:55] So one of the things that’s really definitely a mistake [00:56:00] and some people don’t see it as a mistake, but I certainly do, is just because you have experienced [00:56:05] a treatment yourself, you’re recommending that to a patient in a free consultation. [00:56:10] When in a free consultation, you should only be discussing potential solutions to [00:56:15] patients. They want to know what they’re suitable for, they need to have a clinical assessment. But because [00:56:20] I don’t know, I’ve had an implant and you’re talking to me about wanting an implant, I’m [00:56:25] going hell for leather about how great an implant is. You might not even be clinically, clinically suitable. [00:56:30] You might not have enough bone, you might not have enough space. And I’m really banging the drum about [00:56:35] it. You’re going to end up disappointed. So while it’s great for patients to know that you’ve had [00:56:40] treatment at the clinic. That’s where it should stay. So that’s definitely one thing. [00:56:45] Recommend and recommending. Also not acting with the best interests of your dentist. [00:56:50] Again in the free consultation. So a patient comes in wanting whatever [00:56:55] and not sowing the seed around other potential [00:57:00] solutions that the dentist may need to discuss with them because they need to medically, [00:57:05] legally, and that patient being led up the garden path.

Laura Horton: I think that that’s [00:57:10] a mistake that’s often made easily fixed all of these things, by the way. [00:57:15] And I think, yeah, just sort of can end up sort of throwing your dentist [00:57:20] under the bus a little bit as well by getting overexcited for a patient. [00:57:25] Yeah. And that is, it’s hard because when you are a people person and you’re connecting with this patient [00:57:30] and you’re thinking, gosh, I know I can help you, this is amazing. But you’ve missed some key things [00:57:35] such as these are prerequisites to treatment. So if the great news is Payman, if [00:57:40] you are suitable for this treatment, you will firstly need to embark on an oral health development programme. [00:57:45] We need to make sure that health of your mouth is at a really high level [00:57:50] before moving you into treatment. What happens is patients get the treatment plan. Well what’s this? Why [00:57:55] have I got to see the hygienist three times? No one told me about this. That’s a problem. [00:58:00] And definitely over promising and delivering clinics. Do that as a whole. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: To make a sale sort of thing.

Laura Horton: It’s just not having the right systems in place. Like a classic [00:58:10] example would be you want to move a patient into treatment. Your hygienist is booked up for three months. [00:58:15] So what are you doing about that? Our dentist will do a quick SMP. [00:58:20] No, no. You know, be sensible. What I say to [00:58:25] clinics is every new patient exam you have like I’m big into diary zoning, every [00:58:30] new patient exam slot you have, you have a hygienist new patient slot a week later. How [00:58:35] many patients don’t need to see the hygienist come in like just.

Laura Horton: And [00:58:40] common.

Laura Horton: Sense a little bit.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah a lot of this is common sense. But you know, the common sense is often [00:58:45] the thing that needs, needs to be put into businesses. Yeah. And not not because all dentists [00:58:50] are terrible or all training is terrible. But just sometimes you need an outsider to, to tell you [00:58:55] things. You know, you haven’t, you haven’t figured out for yourself or you got into bad habits. But [00:59:00] would you say it’s different training a TCO for a high end cosmetic [00:59:05] set up or just a, you know, normal private practice [00:59:10] set up must be right.

Laura Horton: There’s different levels of treatment coordination, without a doubt. [00:59:15] Just like there’s different levels of dental nurses, different levels of dentists. So the type of TCO [00:59:20] that I am, I’m a fully utilised high level clinical treatment coordinator. [00:59:25] I have an immense amount of clinical knowledge that I [00:59:30] was lucky to be taught by ash. You know, ash was going on a [00:59:35] huge clinical journey and he’d already been on that journey, but he still [00:59:40] never stops anyway. But he would teach me everything and [00:59:45] it was fantastic. So having that amount of clinical knowledge [00:59:50] to be able to deal with patients that are having rehabilitation versus, [00:59:55] you know, just improving their dental health, there’s a big difference. Again, with treatments, [01:00:00] you tend to end up with tcos that can be pigeonholed into just one treatment, like [01:00:05] maybe like an A line, a TCO, a whitening TCO, that’s all they [01:00:10] do. So and then all they do is maybe free consultations.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Do you know what I mean? So [01:00:15] we’ve got different levels of treatment coordination in my opinion. If you’re going to have a [01:00:20] TCO you should fully utilise them, which means supporting a free consultation, [01:00:25] supporting the day of the examination appointment with a suitable handover [01:00:30] to the to the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: So the two of you together.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So for the [01:00:35] high value patients they’d have a free consultation. First I’m going to pre-screen you essentially make sure you’re [01:00:40] you’re happy with everything. You’re confident within us, you trust in us and you’re ready [01:00:45] to move forward. Also, you’ve got the money. Okay? So the day you come.

Payman Langroudi: Back, [01:00:50] dentist hasn’t met this patient at all yet.

Laura Horton: Not met them at all.

Payman Langroudi: So you just have a feel for what which way it’s going. [01:00:55]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But even to the level of you can tell this is going to go to a rehab.

Laura Horton: Depends on what they’re [01:01:00] saying. So I would not tell the patient anything in a free.

Laura Horton: In your.

Payman Langroudi: Own head.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:01:05] So if you’re talking to a patient and they are talking to me and their [01:01:10] story is perhaps that I’m just absolutely fed up with my dental practice, I [01:01:15] am always having teeth that are breaking. I’m always going backwards and forwards [01:01:20] to get repairs, and I’m just absolutely fed up. And I’m also sitting there looking [01:01:25] at them and I think, gosh, you know, your teeth are worn. Yeah, I’m not going [01:01:30] to say that. Right. But I’m thinking, gosh, you know, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Going that direction. [01:01:35]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Your vertical dimension is completely reduced. You know, it’s um, you know, okay. [01:01:40] I would then be straight away. Thinking of which dentist is best for this patient to move them [01:01:45] into the right dentist, so I wouldn’t necessarily move them. You know, if I had a few dentists to choose [01:01:50] from, I wouldn’t necessarily move that patient into a general dentist. I’d move them into a restorative dentist [01:01:55] because they’re going to need a they’ve got a higher need but don’t need to scan them. And I don’t need [01:02:00] to take photos in this free consultation. And this can also be done virtually. Okay. [01:02:05] Right.

Payman Langroudi: The patient you have thrown out that this might be a £30,000 [01:02:10] treatment.

Laura Horton: I wouldn’t necessarily at that stage, but I would say, [01:02:15] look, if you’re you know, what do you think you need? I’d put it back on the patient. I don’t know how many teeth [01:02:20] have you got a concern with?

Payman Langroudi: I keep breaking all the time.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: So let’s have a look. Here’s a mirror. Which [01:02:25] ones are you most concerned about? And I would guide them in regards to fees. [01:02:30] Yeah. I may say to them, you know, there are occasions where some patients are having [01:02:35] chips and breakages because their bites. Not right now. Your bite is something very [01:02:40] complicated. And if that is the case, Katie will talk to you about that when [01:02:45] you see her. It’s not something that I’m sort of able to go down the route with you, but just to let you [01:02:50] know that in some certain cases that that is the case. I’m using the word case and I hate [01:02:55] the word case.

Laura Horton: Payman I.

Laura Horton: Really do. I hate it when people call a patient a case. And I’m saying case, case. [01:03:00]

Laura Horton: Case no, that.

Payman Langroudi: Is the case is different.

Laura Horton: In some.

Laura Horton: Situations that may be the case. So I’ll sow [01:03:05] a seed. It’s good to sow seeds and I’ll give the patient prices, you know.

Laura Horton: So [01:03:10] what you’ll say if, if.

Payman Langroudi: They if you do go down that route we might be looking at.

Laura Horton: It depends [01:03:15] what type of treatment you’re, you’re looking at. Yeah. But you could be looking at anything between [01:03:20] 4000 and £10,000. It could be more. It depends on your clinical situation. I’m [01:03:25] not a dentist. I can’t give you the answer to that. But you would be looking at a considerable investment. Have [01:03:30] you thought about a budget? Yeah. Because if you’re like.

Payman Langroudi: So when they go so now they [01:03:35] go £10,000.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s a shock isn’t it.

Laura Horton: Oh absolutely. [01:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s even a shock when a dentist says it to them when he’s going to tell them all the reasons why. But then how do you handle [01:03:45] that.

Laura Horton: So what I also do feel felt found without a doubt. But again, it’s [01:03:50] really important to have a portfolio of before and after pictures. Oh yeah. It’s golden. [01:03:55] Yeah. And I think you can’t do a free consult without it. Yeah, yeah. Because I’m then able to pull up pictures [01:04:00] of patients and I’m able to say, okay, Payman, let me show you a couple of examples. So this is a patient who came [01:04:05] to us. Totally similar situation actually. It turned out just to be one tooth that was causing all [01:04:10] the problems. That tooth was out of the bite. So that tooth was fixed. [01:04:15] This this and this was fixed. And this patient spent 3500 pounds at the [01:04:20] other end. We’ve got this patient and this was the situation and they’ve spent [01:04:25] X amount. So it’s it’s allowing them to see it [01:04:30] depends.

Payman Langroudi: So okay tell me about the second appointment with dentist.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: So the [01:04:35] handover is golden. Yeah. Right. So the patient comes back in. The patient [01:04:40] is greeted by myself again I will take them through to meet the dentist. But [01:04:45] before I do that I’ll be with the dentist and nurse. So if you’re the dentist, I’d say right. [01:04:50] Payman this patient D character don’t waffle. Get to the point. [01:04:55] Yeah, this is their concerns. This is their goal. Are you both ready? Brilliant. [01:05:00] I’ll bring the patient in and I’ll say, hi. Payman. So this is Sarah. Sarah [01:05:05] came to see me last week because she’s concerned about her smile, her teeth breaking, missing teeth, whatever [01:05:10] it might be. And Sarah feels, and I’ll repeat how Sarah told me she [01:05:15] feels emotionally about her smile. So again, they’re showing that I’ve listened, that I’ve cared. So [01:05:20] I recommended that Sarah had a comprehensive assessment with you, which is why she’s here today, so [01:05:25] that she can find out what all the options are to help her fix this problem and [01:05:30] remedy her concerns. So what I’m going to do now is I’m going to leave you with lovely Payman [01:05:35] and his wonderful nurse here, Richard, and I will see you at the end of your appointment. [01:05:40]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Okay.

Laura Horton: And that’s golden, because what that allows dentists to do. Oh, [01:05:45] sorry. There’s one thing I’ve missed that’s really important. I’ll also then try and drop in anything that’s socially [01:05:50] connects. So. Oh, did you know you’ve got children the same age. Oh. Did you know that whatever [01:05:55] I can find that connects I mean, some patients are not going to give you anything. We’ve just got to deal with it and move on. [01:06:00] But if I can find something, I will drop that in. That allows you then straightaway [01:06:05] as a dentist.

Laura Horton: And yeah.

Laura Horton: Instead of going.

Laura Horton: This is all in.

Payman Langroudi: Your training for tkos, you [01:06:10] can look out for that thing that connects. Oh, amazing.

Laura Horton: Absolutely.

Laura Horton: So rather than opening [01:06:15] script every dentist, how can I help? Oh, I’ve done that. You don’t need to repeat yourself. [01:06:20] What you need to do is go. Oh, great. Okay. How? Boy girl. Oh, yes. [01:06:25] Yeah. My. Yeah. My daughter is 12 two. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oils the rapport a little bit.

Laura Horton: Exactly. And [01:06:30] I think this is where you know dentists who do have good rapport building skills really [01:06:35] love treatment coordination because they get to go in deeper with that rather than, oh, what have you been doing [01:06:40] for work today? And rubbish, I’ve already done that. Yeah. It allows you [01:06:45] to go in deeper with it all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so.

Laura Horton: Dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Goes through I guess three [01:06:50] options recommends one patient. Well it depends on the [01:06:55] complexity of the case isn’t it.

Laura Horton: So it depends on complexity. So firstly if it is what we’d call [01:07:00] simple you’re able to treatment plan there. And then within your assessment appointment. My advice is to always [01:07:05] treatment plan. In that appointment I will come back into the room. I’ll be part of that treatment planning. [01:07:10] This is where the nurse needs to be involved. The nurse needs to be getting all the treatment plans on the computer, [01:07:15] supporting all the notes we can’t have. Like you said earlier, nurses that don’t progress or don’t really [01:07:20] do anything. The nurse needs to be highly involved here. It needs to be a well-oiled.

Laura Horton: Machine if.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. [01:07:25] Do get that treatment. Plan out as soon as possible so that yes, they don’t go off somewhere else or.

Laura Horton: Whatever, but [01:07:30] I.

Laura Horton: Will take that patient back into the consultation room with me to go through everything they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Second [01:07:35] hand. Over back to you.

Laura Horton: Yes. That’s interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then what are you, the one closing [01:07:40] the deal?

Laura Horton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You must get dentists who wanted to close it themselves.

Laura Horton: That’s fine. [01:07:45]

Laura Horton: But still, instead of that patient going back to reception, joining a queue, being [01:07:50] next to Mr. Moody who’s moaning about the price of things and the lovely new car outside.

Laura Horton: She’s [01:07:55] going to.

Payman Langroudi: Cement it.

Laura Horton: I’m going to take them to a private space, and there’s nothing worse Payman than being [01:08:00] on reception. You’re busy and a new patient comes out of ten appointments to book. You’re like.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, [01:08:05] she would just book one.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, because you’re busy and you’re thinking, I can’t be dealing with this right now. And this is really [01:08:10] complicated. And look, there’s all these notes on here. Ah, it’s much better. I just take them into a private [01:08:15] space, get you another nice tea or coffee. You relax. I’ll get all of this booked and sorted [01:08:20] for you. I’ll arrange your.

Laura Horton: Finance.

Payman Langroudi: So this is best case scenario. So now let’s imagine she says, [01:08:25] I really wasn’t expecting to spend this much money. And, uh, I need [01:08:30] to talk to someone at home about it.

Laura Horton: Would you say that?

Laura Horton: I completely understand that. I’d [01:08:35] feel exactly the same as well. Yeah. What I think’s a good idea is that you can either come back [01:08:40] to see me for a complimentary consultation, not complimentary consultation. You can either come back to see me for an options [01:08:45] meeting. You can see me in person, we can book it online. Or I can arrange [01:08:50] to call you in three days time to answer all the questions that you have. What would be best for you?

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [01:08:55] so I’ll call you in three days time. Call me in three days time. Yeah.

Laura Horton: So let’s arrange a time that works for you. So let’s speak [01:09:00] on Monday. What time is best for you? And I’ll check my diary.

Laura Horton: It’s perfect.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, we go through this [01:09:05] with our salespeople, you know, like to make that.

Laura Horton: And if you’re going to make. No no no no [01:09:10] no. Yeah. What does that mean.

Laura Horton: It’s no no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah okay. [01:09:15] So you call back and she says something like. Its [01:09:20] cost price, you know. Price objection again.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s too expensive.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:09:25] What’d you say?

Laura Horton: I’d say I completely understand that now. This isn’t the only option that was available to you. [01:09:30] Let’s go back and explore the alternative options again okay. They may be a compromised [01:09:35] result. They may be a well, not a compromised result, but a compromise solution.

Payman Langroudi: But when it comes down [01:09:40] to it, what tends to happen? I think about it with my parents or whatever, you know, older people, they [01:09:45] go talk to someone else and someone else says, oh, I had my teeth done for four grand [01:09:50] and your dentist is charging 40 grand. Yeah. So go, go see go see my [01:09:55] dentist or they’re ripping you off or or whatever. So when when it finally comes down to that. [01:10:00]

Laura Horton: Yeah, it’s.

Laura Horton: Very rare when you’ve executed everything so well for [01:10:05] a patient to leave at this point. What the problem is in most practices [01:10:10] is they are forgetting to go back to the alternative options. [01:10:15] And I think it is much better for a patient to have a beautiful.

Laura Horton: Something, a. [01:10:20]

Laura Horton: Beautiful chrome denture. Yeah, that’s going to fit well. It’s still going to support [01:10:25] them enjoying food. It’s going to be aesthetically pleasing. I’d rather the patient [01:10:30] has that than six implants. They’re still with us. When the time is ready they will [01:10:35] have the implants. Yeah. But people overlook and forget. Oh well they don’t want that. You [01:10:40] know, I’ll never forget. This is a real high end clinic in Northern Ireland. I [01:10:45] will never, ever forget in my life getting a taxi from the airport to this clinic and [01:10:50] the taxi driver telling me I went there, I said, oh, did you? And they said [01:10:55] to me, are you a dentist? And what are you doing? I say, oh no, it’s just a couple of bits of materials and equipment. I’m doing like. And [01:11:00] so he started telling me and he said, yeah. So I went there and they said this was the only [01:11:05] option. Well, I went, I went to so and so practice and had this. And I’m sitting there like, oh my gosh, [01:11:10] that’s basically the alternative option. And I went in there, I said, guys like got to [01:11:15] add this into the agenda today. We’ve got to really focus on this. Your patients aren’t understanding all the options. [01:11:20] They’re just being given one option. They need to be given a clear recommendation clinically. [01:11:25] And then I need the alternative options. So it’s very [01:11:30] rare that there’s.

Payman Langroudi: The other thing. Crowd bangs on about slow lane middle lane, fast lane.

Laura Horton: I’m.

Laura Horton: All about [01:11:35] I’m all about slow.

Laura Horton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So the law says if the guy doesn’t go ahead there [01:11:40] and then yeah, they feel like that’s a, that’s a, that’s a lost opportunity and just move on to the next [01:11:45] person. Mhm. And whereas you know the first time and perhaps this [01:11:50] is a thing when you, when you’re playing something for 20 grand the first time you approach [01:11:55] that often is months after when you actually buy the thing. Mhm. Um [01:12:00] so the follow up process, do you even get into that, into CRM and all that.

Laura Horton: So my saying [01:12:05] is your fortunes and your follow up. So you should be proactively follow up with patients. Like I just [01:12:10] said can I call you in three days. Yeah I’m just going to call you out of the blue. That’s awful. Everyone hates that. We [01:12:15] need to be proactive with follow up. It’s really important. It’s a KPI that I get my [01:12:20] CEOs to track as well. So how many people are in follow up? What’s the percentage of conversion out [01:12:25] of follow up each month, and what income has come out of follow up each month as well? Because it’s a critical [01:12:30] system within your clinic and it’s a responsibility of a TCO. And I’d rather [01:12:35] if we go back to handling leads, I’d rather a tcos bang on it with the follow up and [01:12:40] converting patients that we know can have treatment plans of four, six, [01:12:45] ten K than dealing with a lead who’s not even ready to move forward. Of course. Yeah, because [01:12:50] they’ve got the skill set to do that. They should have. And if not they’ll be trained to do that. The other thing, [01:12:55] just going back to the assessment days, if the dentist needs time to treatment plan, [01:13:00] great.

Laura Horton: I really encourage that. I think that’s great. And it’s a lovely message to [01:13:05] patients that the dentist needs to take time out of their diary to treatment plan all the solutions for you. [01:13:10] So the idea would then be that a TCO supports the dentist. A lot [01:13:15] of dentists are sitting up late at night, their treatment planning to all hours spending their weekends [01:13:20] doing this. They’re not getting to enjoy their family. Their health suffers. They don’t eat like so [01:13:25] many things. Whereas you know, with the TCO and treatment planning, you work together [01:13:30] as a team. And I, you know, take 90% of the non-clinical stuff off. You give [01:13:35] it all back to you to check it’s all done. And then instead of chucking that to in an email, [01:13:40] the patient comes back. I can do it online if I want, sure, but you invite the patient [01:13:45] back for a complimentary options meeting where me, the dentist and the patient are [01:13:50] sat there together and the dentist goes for everything and the dentist presents [01:13:55] the fee. Because I feel this is a really big thing. Dentists aren’t presenting [01:14:00] the fees to patients. It looks like they don’t believe in their own work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:05] I mean, yeah, if you want to say that, I find it when a dentist, there’s a there’s [01:14:10] a common thing. I don’t know if you’ve come across it. Yeah. Patient says how much is a crown. Dentist says I’m not [01:14:15] sure. Like as if as if it’s plucked.

Laura Horton: Out the sky. No.

Payman Langroudi: As if he’s something he’s never done before [01:14:20] or, you know, like, for me, if a dentist doesn’t know the price of something, it means he hasn’t done it very often. Yeah. [01:14:25]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. But this but this, I’m not sure. They almost say it as if money is not in my head. [01:14:30] Yeah, sort of thing. I’m not sure.

Laura Horton: Talk to talk to your desk or.

Payman Langroudi: We can talk it up later or [01:14:35] something. It’s like it’s an uncomfortable moment.

Laura Horton: Really uncomfortable.

Laura Horton: For some. But I think I’ll [01:14:40] never forget when I first again started working for ash. And we had this husband [01:14:45] and wife in, and I remember each of their treatment plans was 12 K each. And ash [01:14:50] said, right, you’re our go for everything clinically, and then you’re going to tell them the fee. [01:14:55] And I was like, what, like 24 K’s is like more than I earn. I was totally like, I’d [01:15:00] only been there like a week. I was like, what the heck is going on in this practice? I don’t know, he’s like, yeah, we’ll just try all this. It’s [01:15:05] something new. He was saying that where I am, and I was sat here and he [01:15:10] said, oh, any more questions? They said, no, what’s the price? And ash said, Laura [01:15:15] will tell you that. And I was rigid to my seat. I was petrified and ash couldn’t get [01:15:20] out behind me, and he was trying to squeeze behind me. It was a bit of a comical scene. Looking back, [01:15:25] he got stuck in between the wall and the chair and he’s like, Laura, can you move? Can you move? And I was like, [01:15:30] no, like I’m scared. He left and I remember he was [01:15:35] called Neil and he said, are you all right, Laura? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:15:40]

Laura Horton: So basically it’s £12,000 each. And they never went ahead and I don’t blame them. And I followed up with them and [01:15:45] they never went ahead. And I said that to ash, I said, you need to present the fee. And he’s like, yeah, it’s you know, [01:15:50] this is like 20 years ago. He’s like, oh, it’s really uncomfortable. I was like, don’t worry, we’ll work on it together. [01:15:55] Like, I can quote, I can give patients treatment plans. We’ve had serious [01:16:00] treatment plans three where I’m not scared or worried or confident [01:16:05] to tell the patient, but it’s better if it comes from the clinician. But that whole process, [01:16:10] again, is really refined because we don’t we want patients to get their treatment [01:16:15] plans quickly. Momentum is key. If they’re just sitting there in a pile on the dentist desk. We’ve become [01:16:20] nagging, nagging wives at work as tcos. If we’re female, have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? Have you done [01:16:25] it yet? No one wants that. It’s another system. It’s another process. It does improve [01:16:30] your conversion rate, not necessarily the speed of it, but it does increase your conversion rate because [01:16:35] of the way that it the way that it’s done. But slow is best. Sometimes things are just too fast.

Laura Horton: To encourage.

Payman Langroudi: Performance [01:16:40] related pay. Do you encourage sharing numbers with the team? [01:16:45]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s funny because I come across loads of dentists don’t want to do that. [01:16:50] Yeah, yeah. Well over here we, we, we send [01:16:55] an email to every single member of staff every day on sales.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Good. Yeah, yeah. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: What do you think.

Laura Horton: Yeah. No. And that’s what I really enjoyed actually about when I first started working with ash, this [01:17:05] openness about all the figures. And there was a team bonus and it was really [01:17:10] fair. It was a great bonus. I would say I probably got the most in the bonus pot most [01:17:15] months, but that’s because I was performing so well. But it was fair and everyone was involved and I really liked [01:17:20] that. And it was really clear like, we are a business, this is our target, this is our break [01:17:25] even figure. This is our target, this is what we need to achieve. And if we achieve this, there’s a bonus. [01:17:30] Simple. It’s hard work for everyone. And there was complete transparency about the figures [01:17:35] at all times. It was just, you know, it can often be an elephant [01:17:40] in the room. Just get it out there. Why did you.

Laura Horton: Come across practice?

Payman Langroudi: You don’t want to.

Laura Horton: I don’t want to. Some [01:17:45] don’t know their own figures. Firstly that’s why. Yeah. And maybe it’s a bit of embarrassment [01:17:50] because there’s a lot of, you know, bury your head in the sand mentality, which I understand. [01:17:55] But you’ve got to know your figures. You’ve got to know what’s going on in your business. And then I do think, [01:18:00] yes, sharing everything with your team is really important. I know I’m going to be doing that with my team. [01:18:05] Like this is our break even figure every month. Like we’ve got to at least hit this. It’s [01:18:10] really important that we’ve got to pay the bills, we’ve got the payroll, we need to hit this. But actually this is our [01:18:15] target. And that’s what what we need to get to. I think complete transparency is.

Laura Horton: Important [01:18:20] as a nurse.

Payman Langroudi: When when you see a treatment plan that’s more than your annual salary. [01:18:25] How does that feel? Yeah.

Laura Horton: It is [01:18:30] difficult if you’re not paid well. And I do feel now team [01:18:35] members are paid better. Yeah, I would definitely say, you know, working with ash, everyone [01:18:40] was paid well. Initially there wasn’t there was a big disparity, um, big [01:18:45] issue across both practices. So where I worked, actually, everyone was paid a lot less. In the [01:18:50] other practice. Everyone was paid a lot more that that got sorted out. Everyone was put on the same pay because I was like, this is ridiculous. [01:18:55] You can’t. I think it’s about understanding your [01:19:00] practice where you work and understanding the figures. Because if you know that actually [01:19:05] just to pay the bills, the clinic needs to take 42 K. Yeah, [01:19:10] just to pay the bills. Yeah. Then if you see a 20 K treatment plan, [01:19:15] no bones is.

Laura Horton: It. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Whereas team members if they don’t [01:19:20] know they have no clue I’ll often break things down, you know. What do [01:19:25] you think here’s I think I got this from Chris Burrow actually here’s £100. Here’s [01:19:30] £100. What’s coming out of this £100 and then what’s left. Oh great. So that’s left for [01:19:35] the owner. Plus by the way they’re getting taxed on that. And it’s a real eye opener. But [01:19:40] I think if you’re transparent with your break even just be with your break even costs. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Well I found when I was a dentist I used to ask my nurse, [01:19:50] how much do you think the boss makes? Yeah. And the numbers people would come [01:19:55] out with. Yeah, well, way more like way more than what this guy was earning. [01:20:00] And yet this guy wasn’t disclosing any of the numbers to the team. And, [01:20:05] you know, when I actually told one of my bosses he had a swimming pool in his house, and [01:20:10] somehow people translated that as he’s earning £3 million a year, you know, that [01:20:15] just just that fact that he had a swimming pool and he wasn’t he wasn’t anything near that. No. Um, [01:20:20] so the transparency question around around actually, that’s why we instituted [01:20:25] it here. Because because of all of this. Yeah. Because of asking these questions. Um, [01:20:30] I think we need to be open more open about it. And you’re absolutely right. People have no idea how much [01:20:35] it costs to run a dental practice per minute. Right. Exactly.

Laura Horton: That’s it per.

Laura Horton: Minute. [01:20:40]

Laura Horton: And I think that is really important with the front of house team. Then they know then to fill white space. [01:20:45] This is costing us, you know, £2.65 a minute because that space is [01:20:50] sat there. I yeah I think it is really important to be super transparent. [01:20:55] You don’t have to share what you pay. I think maybe that’s a misunderstanding that clinic [01:21:00] owners think sharing the finances means showing what. [01:21:05]

Laura Horton: I’m being.

Laura Horton: Paid. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I’m being paid as the boss.

Laura Horton: As the boss? Yeah.

Laura Horton: You [01:21:10] don’t need to share that at all. Yeah. You know, I used to love it when, you know, Mitesh would come in [01:21:15] the morning. Bless him. He was always late for our morning huddle. And I’d give him his day sheet and I’d go. You’re [01:21:20] in for invoicing through 1800 today, mitesh. And he’d be like, nice. [01:21:25] Yeah. And I remember when Mitesh got a Porsche, I [01:21:30] was like, well chuffed for him. I was like, well done, mate. You deserve.

Laura Horton: That. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Like, you’re working [01:21:35] really hard, working really well, and you’re investing in your skill set. I think, again, [01:21:40] it’s not just about the money, it’s about the clinician and what they’ve done. When I asked [01:21:45] Tcos to put Usp’s together, they’re like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know [01:21:50] why my clinic owner is so great. Go and ask them how much they’ve invested in their education. [01:21:55] Go and ask them. You know, I used to with permission from ash, in the end tell patients [01:22:00] when patients were being really like, well, okay, Laura, like I understand you’ve just given me this treatment [01:22:05] plan today from this smile makeovers, £12,000. But I know down the road it’s 6000. [01:22:10] I’ve been in there too, because this was a problem we had in Hornchurch.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: And I’d say look, [01:22:15] that’s absolutely fine. And you can always get things cheaper elsewhere in life. [01:22:20] But what it goes into this fee is Ash’s skill set [01:22:25] and the investment that he has made in his education. And I’m proud [01:22:30] of what he has invested in his education because he hasn’t invested it in [01:22:35] anything else. And I tell patients what that cost was and they’d be like, okay, [01:22:40] yeah, I want someone who’s spent a quarter of £1 million on their education. That’s [01:22:45] that is the guy for me.

Payman Langroudi: Or it seems to me like you’re a sort of pure bred [01:22:50] salesperson. You know.

Laura Horton: My mum always said that, though. She always said [01:22:55] you could sell eyes to escalation.

Laura Horton: Could?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, almost. The thrill you get [01:23:00] it is.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about it.

Laura Horton: I also have always really enjoyed [01:23:05] difficult patients and people think I’m mental.

Laura Horton: I love difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists. You were saying?

Laura Horton: Oh, [01:23:10] always.

Laura Horton: I was always the nurse that got put with a difficult dentist and I’d just run the show, [01:23:15] you know, why are they the difficult dentists? Because people are maybe [01:23:20] a little bit scared of them and too scared to be like, oh, which which material [01:23:25] did you want for this? Yeah. And I’d be like, what do you want? Like, yeah, [01:23:30] okay. Is that how you want it? Is that. No. Okay, I’ll do it again. I’m not emotional about it. [01:23:35] I think people get too emotional about things anyway.

Laura Horton: Hello, boss. Are you.

Laura Horton: I. I’m a very [01:23:40] fair boss because I get extremely irritated in life with unfairness. [01:23:45]

Laura Horton: Oh, yeah?

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I people also ask me often, how do you know so much [01:23:50] about HR? I know so much about HR because of how I’ve been treated [01:23:55] as an employee. And my mum would she wouldn’t come and [01:24:00] fight my corner for me. She’s not going to turn up with me, is she? Do you know what I mean? Like, I hate it when that happens. By the way, with [01:24:05] trainee nurses, they’re like, mum turns up with them to have a moan. It’s like, go away. But she [01:24:10] would say, this is wrong. Only you can fix it. And you need to stand up for yourself and you [01:24:15] need to get all the facts. So I was always down the Citizens Advice Bureau. Do you remember we didn’t have [01:24:20] on you didn’t have internet? Yeah. Um, yeah. So I used to [01:24:25] sort of fight, fight for things. My mum would be like, you’ve got only you can do that, you know [01:24:30] it’s wrong. You’ve got to stand up for it. And I think that’s, you know, always been a big part of [01:24:35] me as well. Like fairness. I’m the eldest of three girls. I was probably, I felt, [01:24:40] treated quite unfairly growing up, like as the elder sister, like my other sister got things [01:24:45] before I was allowed them. Things like that. Hated it, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see as a.

Laura Horton: As [01:24:50] a as a sibling. No.

Payman Langroudi: As an you were 16 and you’re 13 year old. Yeah. Sister [01:24:55] was getting things at 13 that due to 1415.

Laura Horton: You know that’s normal I know. [01:25:00] But you really get.

Payman Langroudi: Things for being the oldest as.

Laura Horton: Well. No.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe that’s an eastern thing. [01:25:05] It definitely is an eastern thing.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: No, no.

Laura Horton: The oldest.

Payman Langroudi: Seems to get [01:25:10] first dibs on stuff.

Laura Horton: No, no.

Laura Horton: I was I [01:25:15] feel my youngest. Faye. Yeah. Faye got away with everything.

Payman Langroudi: Because she was the cute [01:25:20] little one.

Laura Horton: She got away with murder.

Laura Horton: She even had, like, one of mum and Dad’s credit [01:25:25] cards. Like an additional card holder. When me and Sarah found out, we were like.

Laura Horton: What is she.

Payman Langroudi: A lot younger. [01:25:30]

Laura Horton: She’s nine years younger than me.

Payman Langroudi: She. What sometimes happens is the family situation changes.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [01:25:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Did in that nine years, you know like.

Laura Horton: Totally so.

Payman Langroudi: So so suddenly, you know your parents were like [01:25:40] more well to do nine years later. Yeah. And so they could afford to do things for her. And you know. [01:25:45]

Laura Horton: If I was living in the house with the swimming pool.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: But [01:25:50] no. So as a boss, I feel that I’m very fair. I’m very understanding. [01:25:55] I’m always wanting to listen to someone’s concern [01:26:00] or complaint and always understand things from their side. So I will [01:26:05] always question and listen and. But why is that? Why do you think that’s happening? How is that making [01:26:10] you feel? Okay, fine. However, I am also very firm. Yeah, [01:26:15] I’m also very firm in that that’s, you know, you’ve come into work late. I’m [01:26:20] pulling you aside. Yeah. What’s what’s happening? Nice way. First of all. But you know what’s [01:26:25] happened. Your contracted start time is 830. It is 832. You should be ready to work [01:26:30] at 830. What’s happened this morning? And it might be you’ve had a terrible time. Yeah, [01:26:35] yeah. And I’m like, okay, look, I’ll sit and talk to you about it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But the line [01:26:40] between both and friendship.

Laura Horton: Oh, yeah, it’s really difficult.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult one, isn’t [01:26:45] it.

Laura Horton: It is, I think I, I think I did really well with it [01:26:50] in particularly when I started managing the Hartford practice. So in Hornchurch, [01:26:55] when I managed that practice, ash said to me, you can’t be friends with anyone when you’re the practice [01:27:00] manager now. I was already friends with everyone. Yeah, I was the TCO. Yeah. And now he’s like, you need [01:27:05] to be my manager and you can’t be friends with anyone. And I was like, oh, but we all get on really well and we [01:27:10] go out for curries and stuff. And so it was just an open communication of, [01:27:15] right, okay, listen, I’m in I’m in boss mode now and you’ve just got to respect [01:27:20] me as your manager and what I’m saying to you. And then, yeah, we’ll have a laugh tonight when we’re out having a curry or whatever. [01:27:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you found it easy to navigate there.

Laura Horton: I think if you’re being open with your communication, it’s fine. What [01:27:30] I found harder was when I started managing the Hartford Clinic, where they were all younger [01:27:35] than me. Yeah. And I found that difficult because they were like, oh, Laura. Yeah. Do you want [01:27:40] to come out clubbing with us on Friday night? And I’d be like, oh no. Also, Cheryl, [01:27:45] who I just mentioned, Cheryl was working there, and Cheryl actually used to pull me aside. And she [01:27:50] used to be like, you’re really hard on me. You’re much harder on me than others. And I’d say, look, mate, [01:27:55] I have to be in a way I don’t want to be, but they have to see I’m not letting [01:28:00] anything slip with you.

Laura Horton: Yeah, because you were already, buddy. We’re already.

Laura Horton: Friends. Yeah, they [01:28:05] have to see that. And she was like, yeah, I know, I get it. But sometimes I think, like, you know, it’s not fair. And [01:28:10] I’ll be like, well, that’s the way it is. If you want to work here, I’m your manager. I’m also your friend. [01:28:15] You’re not getting an easy ride. It’s a harder ride. Yeah.

Laura Horton: It was overcompensated. Yeah. [01:28:20]

Laura Horton: Because you can’t let it will be thrown back in your face. There’s a great book called The [01:28:25] Five Levels of Leadership by John C Maxwell. You come across it. It’s really good and [01:28:30] I love it. And I used to teach it in a practice management program. And because it really helps you to identify [01:28:35] whether you should be friends with people or not. So what [01:28:40] it says is a level one leader. And when you’re at level one, which is the lowest level, just to confirm, [01:28:45] that’s, you know, a team member, an employee does something because you [01:28:50] are their boss. That’s it. You’re their boss. You’ve told them to do it. They’re doing it. Yeah. A level two [01:28:55] leader means they’re doing it because they like you as well as you being their boss. [01:29:00] So what I always used to say to managers was like, this is your first goal is to get to level two with everyone. [01:29:05] You don’t have to like each other. You don’t have to be friends, but you need to put the [01:29:10] effort in because this whole you shouldn’t be friends, don’t connect with your team. I don’t think [01:29:15] is great leadership. It’s management, but it’s not leadership. And I’m very much into leadership. [01:29:20] Yeah. And then a level three leader, um, is then about what you’ve done for that person. [01:29:25] So we’re talking about progression, supporting their development, giving them training. A [01:29:30] level four leader is about also what you’ve done for the organisation. So they can see you’ve [01:29:35] developed the patient experience. You develop this whatever it might be. A level five leader [01:29:40] is like.

Laura Horton: Nelson Mandela. Do you know.

Laura Horton: What I mean? So [01:29:45] my goal within leadership is to be at level four with everyone. And I think that’s a great place [01:29:50] for clinic owners and managers to be. And you don’t need to worry about being level five. I’d [01:29:55] say ash is level five. I’d always describe ash as a level five leader, but yeah, as [01:30:00] a manager and clinic owner, if you can get to level four, which means you’re doing great things for them, [01:30:05] for the company and you’ve got a connection, even if it’s at a basic level, [01:30:10] you’re going to be doing really well.

Payman Langroudi: I guess in your in your time, you’ve had to fire a bunch of people. Oh, [01:30:15] God.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think, do you think when you know, like, do you think it’s [01:30:20] ever makes sense to like, not fire someone when you think [01:30:25] you should fire them, they give them a second chance? Or because every time I’ve done that, it hasn’t worked.

Laura Horton: Okay, [01:30:30] bear with me.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: I distinctively [01:30:35] remember one week and it was a Monday. And Rahul said to me, hey [01:30:40] Laura, what are your goals for this week? And I said, my goals for this week are not [01:30:45] to fire anyone because I hate it. And the last three weeks in a row, I fired [01:30:50] people across both practices and I don’t like it, I hate it. And he’s like, [01:30:55] yeah, but you’re really good at it. I said, don’t care if I’m good at it. I don’t like it and I’m not.

Laura Horton: Why are you why.

Payman Langroudi: Were [01:31:00] you firing so many? Was it one of those practices where you would hire a lot and fire a lot? We would.

Laura Horton: We would we. [01:31:05]

Laura Horton: Would fire quickly and definitely let people go quite quickly. Our [01:31:10] induction, um, was intense and it was intense for a reason. You’re either [01:31:15] able to progress quite quickly within the training and dedication that we’re giving you or [01:31:20] you’re not, and people stand out. And it wasn’t necessarily you’re being fired. It’s do you know [01:31:25] what? You know, you’ve put a lot of effort in. I don’t think we’re the right practice for you. And they’d often go, [01:31:30] no, I’m really missing my old practice. I’d be like, okay, why don’t you go back there then?

Laura Horton: Um. [01:31:35]

Laura Horton: I remember one person I had to fire was a hygienist. I’d never [01:31:40] even met the woman before I was in Hornchurch. Rahul called me up. You need to come and fire this person. And I [01:31:45] was like, oh my God, this is the worst day of my life. And I hated it. And she was really upset. And she’s like, but why? But why? [01:31:50] And I’m trying to give her like reasons and stuff. And I’m thinking, I don’t really know. Like this is [01:31:55] horrible. I hated it, hated that day. That was probably one of the worst.

Laura Horton: And yet you.

Payman Langroudi: Were [01:32:00] that soldier that they use. So are you the person who’s just going to do everything, whatever it takes [01:32:05] to do the job?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah, because the job. What [01:32:10] do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think that determination comes from?

Laura Horton: I’m very.

Laura Horton: I’m very stubborn [01:32:15] as a person, but I don’t know where the determination comes from. I just I don’t know. [01:32:20]

Laura Horton: Your dad. No, I don’t know this.

Payman Langroudi: Sense of unfairness.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I [01:32:25] don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. But, yeah, I’m very determined. If I’m doing something, I’m doing it. Um, [01:32:30] and.

Payman Langroudi: Like, over the years, my interactions with you, I’ve always noticed you even taking [01:32:35] care of stuff yourself that I would outsource. Mhm. Yeah. And [01:32:40] that shows like a curiosity as well. Like a massive curiosity for what’s what. [01:32:45]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Um I love to learn.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: So [01:32:50] I have got an amazing VA Allison. She’s my tech queen and she’s taught me [01:32:55] a lot about tech. How great is she? That’s her business. And I’ve gone, oh, yeah, I want to know this. I want to know [01:33:00] that, you know, and she’s taught me things. So I love editing my own videos. I don’t particularly [01:33:05] love filming them. Um, you know, but yeah, I do like to do different things, [01:33:10] but only so that I can master something and then share with my team how to do it. So you mentioned CRMs [01:33:15] earlier. Like, I absolutely love CRMs. I think they’re awesome. Um, and I’ve just done [01:33:20] a big migration myself for my company because my CRM just wasn’t cutting the mustard anymore. So [01:33:25] I went back to my first ever CRM, and already with Sheryl, it’s like, right, [01:33:30] let me teach you how to do this. Let me teach you how to do that. She’s like, oh, I love learning this stuff. We’re very [01:33:35] like minded people, but I know, I don’t know where determination comes from. [01:33:40] I just I see it more as being stubborn, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:33:45] mean, the great sort of assets. Right? The pure bred sort of sales person [01:33:50] determined, fair, like you’re like, you’ve obviously come far already, but [01:33:55] it’s, it’s gonna it’s gonna take you far and let’s now get to [01:34:00] darker times.

Laura Horton: Let’s go dark.

Payman Langroudi: But we like on this pod. [01:34:05] We like to talk about mistakes, and generally it tends to be a clinical error. By the way, [01:34:10] I’m happy for you to discuss a clinical error. Don’t mention the dentist name, but. Errors. [01:34:15] What comes to mind when I tell you when I say errors?

Laura Horton: I [01:34:20] had a situation quite a few years ago where [01:34:25] I was expanding my team and took someone on who I had [01:34:30] a fantastic connection with, and she was a practice manager [01:34:35] and we had an equal love for marketing, and I was really looking [01:34:40] at growing my consultancy at this time into all different areas. So for example, [01:34:45] we were doing qualifications, post qualifications for nurses, impression taking, training. [01:34:50] The management training is now very much back to its core. What I love treatment [01:34:55] coordination and the patient experience. So with that in mind, we’ve really progressed forward with [01:35:00] with the marketing aspect. And we we got on brilliantly. [01:35:05] But there then became a situation that arose. And I’d say [01:35:10] the reason it was very difficult is because one, I really liked this person [01:35:15] and I trusted them. I came to my wedding. And [01:35:20] they stabbed me in the back.

Payman Langroudi: Financially.

Laura Horton: Not financially, [01:35:25] but they basically I was told by the lovely [01:35:30] Michael Bentley, who’s worked for me for many, many years. Basically it was something like Michael [01:35:35] messaged me, what’s going on with you? And you two need to bang your heads together. [01:35:40] That’s a bit like a comment from your mum, isn’t it? And I said, no, you need to call me. And [01:35:45] I can’t remember the ins and outs of exactly what has happened. And on this phone call he, he said, [01:35:50] oh gosh, I’ve got something to tell you. And she had been on to [01:35:55] him and also to Rachel, who worked for me at the time, saying, let’s leave, Laura, let’s set up [01:36:00] on our own. I was gutted, gutted. Michael told her, no. She [01:36:05] said, absolutely no way. I would never, ever do that. But I’d let her in to [01:36:10] my business. And like I just said, I’d like to share. I like to learn things and share things, and I’d shared [01:36:15] so much because I wanted her to grow as a person, and she was really just taking it all [01:36:20] for her own good and was going to set up on her own. But she did, [01:36:25] and it failed. So where’s.

Payman Langroudi: The error? Trusting her?

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:36:30] not going to let you.

Laura Horton: Get away with that.

Laura Horton: Let me get away with it.

Laura Horton: Okay. That’s awful.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:36:35] the answer to a different question.

Laura Horton: I’ve got a worst.

Payman Langroudi: Day at work or.

Laura Horton: Something. Okay. All right.

Laura Horton: I’ve got another one then. Error.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:36:40] Mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Something. Something we can learn from.

Laura Horton: I’ll tell you what.

Payman Langroudi: Because trusting people. [01:36:45]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Okay.

Laura Horton: I have got one. I don’t really like to talk about it. You know, the pandemic. Sorry, [01:36:50] but I’m going to mention it. I know everyone’s over it. Pandemic comes along, and, um. [01:36:55] It’s a scary time, isn’t it? For every business owner, you’re like, shit. Yeah. And [01:37:00] I just sort of went off on a tangent with Michael [01:37:05] creating something, trying to reinvent the wheel and and creating something [01:37:10] new, which was a complete disaster. Yeah. I had sitting there my [01:37:15] treatment coordination program 1.0 is 4.0 [01:37:20] is about to release. I had it sitting there like, it’s like my baby. And [01:37:25] I could have monopolised that without a doubt. To all these dentists that are going [01:37:30] online doing virtual consultations. But instead I’m like creating this whole other program. [01:37:35] I’m up to all hours Payman like and getting up at 5 a.m.. Um, [01:37:40] the weather was nice. I had to walk the dog early, but, you know, yeah, that was [01:37:45] a.

Laura Horton: Bit of.

Payman Langroudi: That. We all did a bit of.

Laura Horton: That because.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ll tell you something. I’ve noticed here that [01:37:50] since the pandemic ended, when we had the pandemic, [01:37:55] the amount of content just exploded, right? Exploded. And it made [01:38:00] me realise that dentist actually worked quite hard. Right? Because, you know, we could spend this time doing this [01:38:05] content. Right. And, and I do this one hour a week sort of thing. Yeah. And you [01:38:10] know, for me it’s one of one of many hours like, yeah, it’s not like I’m working [01:38:15] every hour. Yeah. So everyone well I’m quite open about it. I’m [01:38:20] not constantly working every hour. I’m not. That’s not me. Yeah I do sometimes stay up till [01:38:25] 4 a.m. thinking about something. Yeah. Yeah that happens. Right. And I don’t class that as working. Yeah. But [01:38:30] anyway when the pandemic happened you realised my god yeah there’s [01:38:35] all this content and there’s as soon as everyone opened up again the content just completely [01:38:40] died. Yeah. And so yeah, but but what I’m saying is [01:38:45] everyone went through a bit of this. Yeah. Yeah. So you made a whole new course and. [01:38:50]

Laura Horton: Well, then it sort of wasn’t needed because it.

Laura Horton: Was pandemic course. Yeah, [01:38:55] yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: I the message was, you know, that don’t [01:39:00] reinvent something, don’t reinvent something and don’t make decisions [01:39:05] based on fear and panic. I’d never felt fear and panic in my life [01:39:10] until that point. And I felt fear and panic. Yeah, because I had a [01:39:15] little boy and I was about to move and travel my mortgage and everything else that goes with it.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:39:20] now I’m thinking about it. I drew some pictures of these hydrogen peroxide, the thing to [01:39:25] wash fruits with, you know, remember, you’re washing stuff in the supermarket.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:39:30] it was hydrogen peroxide people were using for that, right? Yes.

Laura Horton: And reinventing the wheel. Yeah. [01:39:35] Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: We we don’t need to do it. We need to just be like, what works? [01:39:40] Let’s focus on that. And it was. Yeah, I definitely say it was a strange time for me because [01:39:45] I’d never felt like that. I’m always a go getter. This is what I’m doing. I’m really sure it was the first time I [01:39:50] probably wasn’t sure of things which which was quite difficult. [01:39:55] And I was also consumed by fear. And never in my life had I had [01:40:00] I been in that situation of feeling fearful. I was scared of [01:40:05] getting Covid. I was really scared about it all. And then it was okay. [01:40:10] In the end. I took took a, you know, gave myself a talking to and said, sort yourself out, Laura.

Payman Langroudi: It [01:40:15] was a funny situation, man.

Laura Horton: Yeah, but the.

Laura Horton: Media did a great job of scaring people that weren’t even normally. Scared, let [01:40:20] alone those that probably lived with anxiety. There must have been horrendous situation. But yeah, it was. I [01:40:25] gave myself and talking to her, I was like, right, okay, I’m moving on now.

Payman Langroudi: Different. Different pod. Yeah. But we [01:40:30] do this, uh, mental health pod.

Laura Horton: Yeah. With Reiner. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, we’ve been [01:40:35] grappling with this question of suicide. Why dentists? Why do dentists commit suicide? And [01:40:40] and, you know, we’ve been thinking about it, and it’s definitely a multifactorial [01:40:45] thing, I’m sure. But why would you say that? Some dentists adore their lives [01:40:50] and we’ve come across them.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some the opposite. And what, [01:40:55] you’ve seen so many dentists. Right. Um, just owners. Associates. [01:41:00] What would you say is the thread running through the ones who are loving it [01:41:05] and the ones who are hating their lives? And by the way, it switches, right? [01:41:10]

Laura Horton: You get.

Payman Langroudi: People who adore.

Laura Horton: It. Who?

Payman Langroudi: Who then hate it. Yeah. Or adore their life and hate [01:41:15] their life.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? What comes to mind when I say that?

Laura Horton: I think from all [01:41:20] the dentists that I’ve worked with as a nurse, as a trainer consultant, [01:41:25] it is really difficult. Like you say, you can’t put one finger on it. But [01:41:30] if I think of the dentist that I know that are perhaps the happiest, [01:41:35] shall we say? Yeah. They lower their expectations of [01:41:40] themselves and what they’re going to do, and they don’t add [01:41:45] adverse pressure to themselves either. They’re not worried [01:41:50] about keeping up with the Joneses, which I think for mature dentists has been a massive [01:41:55] thing over the years. Like, they don’t care what car they drive. They don’t care about their [01:42:00] kids going to the prep school. They’ve sort of had a bit of a reality check [01:42:05] in that sense. I don’t know whether that’s come from parents, from peers, from hearing [01:42:10] these awful stories of dentists committing suicide. I don’t know, [01:42:15] but I would say those that are happiest in life are the ones that probably [01:42:20] have less. So they have less pressures, I don’t know.

Laura Horton: I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A fact [01:42:25] though.

Laura Horton: Yeah. I don’t feel like I can really talk about mental health I’ve never experienced and [01:42:30] I feel very happy. Lucky about that. I’ve never experienced mental health issues or concerns [01:42:35] in my life, but I would say that would be one thing. I think if financial [01:42:40] pressure is an absolutely huge thing, I know [01:42:45] from listening to another podcast that I listen to, that most relationships end due to financial [01:42:50] pressures and financial worries, and I would assume that that [01:42:55] carries a lot of weight in day to day life as well. Financial pressures and financial [01:43:00] worries. And you don’t need to you don’t [01:43:05] need to have the house with the swimming pool.

Payman Langroudi: It happens, though, doesn’t it? I know what you mean, but [01:43:10] it happens. You stick your kid in that school, then you know who they say you compare [01:43:15] yourself most to.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, as a man, the husband of [01:43:20] your wife’s sister.

Laura Horton: All right. Yeah. Really?

Payman Langroudi: You can understand it, right? In a way, right? Yeah. [01:43:25] Um, but but I’d say that the keeping up with the Joneses thing is, is is one of the [01:43:30] biggest sort of cancers in life. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely is. Yeah. But I can see how [01:43:35] people fall into it. Yeah. Because of this similar sort of thing. Schools and holidays and. [01:43:40]

Laura Horton: Things get carried away, don’t they get, you know, carried away.

Laura Horton: Could you imagine.

Payman Langroudi: You’d imagine dentists [01:43:45] right at the end of the day earning quite well. Yeah. Yeah. Quite. Well I don’t, I don’t [01:43:50] necessarily think it’s, it’s only about money I think like I [01:43:55] talk to my, my, my cousin, he’s a, he’s an eye doctor. Eye surgeon. Yeah. And he says he’s [01:44:00] got some days where it’s GA. Yeah. And some days where it’s LA. And he says on the LA days [01:44:05] he’s much more tired and stressed than on the GA days. Yeah. Because [01:44:10] the patients, you know, live patients are scared patient. Yeah. And you know we have that all day every [01:44:15] day scared people and your every move. And then and then I was [01:44:20] going to get to sorry. Yeah. The nurse.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah. In this room four walls. You and the [01:44:25] nurse. Everyone else is a customer of sorts, right? Yeah. So if that relationship’s [01:44:30] not good.

Laura Horton: Oh, God awful.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s this multifactorial thing that happens, right? [01:44:35] Keeping up with the Joneses? Yeah. Your relationship with your nurse? Yeah. Something’s [01:44:40] gone wrong.

Laura Horton: Partner at home.

Payman Langroudi: Partner at home? Yeah. And, you.

Laura Horton: Know, nurse hates [01:44:45] you. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Practice manager hates you.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: The patients tell you they hate you [01:44:50] all day long. I think it’s very difficult. One thing I always try to express to team members is like, it [01:44:55] is really difficult being a dentist and your dentist has gone on this journey, which [01:45:00] is absolutely amazing. These are the investments they’ve made in their education or this is development in their clinical skills. [01:45:05] But you know what? Their life hasn’t got easier. Their life has got harder. And as team members, [01:45:10] we need to support our dentists at all times. This is also our treatment [01:45:15] coordination like is in my opinion critical because [01:45:20] of well it takes the pressure off. But we can also identify patients that you might [01:45:25] want to reconsider treating because that can be another thing that adds another layer. [01:45:30] Isn’t it difficult patient, complaining patient. All of these things build up. We can give you your [01:45:35] time back. You need to relax. You don’t need to be sitting up. Treatment planning, not not taking care [01:45:40] of your health, not eating properly. You know, so many dentists don’t even eat properly. You’re unbelievable. [01:45:45] Like it’s not. Surely. I know you probably get used to it, but I can’t go from breakfast through [01:45:50] to dinner without eating. I would. I would faint.

Laura Horton: Like this is.

Payman Langroudi: What you get [01:45:55] used to.

Laura Horton: It. That’s what you get used to. But I think I’ve always.

Payman Langroudi: Maintained four days is enough for dentistry.

Laura Horton: I [01:46:00] think. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Too hard to do five days a.

Laura Horton: Week. Well, I.

Laura Horton: Couldn’t, I couldn’t do.

Laura Horton: It.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [01:46:05] I couldn’t do it. One of the things we’ve, um. Katie, my business partner. Right. Which [01:46:10] I said to her about setting up this practice is I want you to have the most [01:46:15] amazing work life as a dentist. I am [01:46:20] determined and excited to change your working life as a dentist. Now [01:46:25] she loves being a dentist. Yeah, the first day I met her, she said, just one thing you need to know about me. I’m [01:46:30] not going to retire from dentistry till I physically have to. She’s [01:46:35] like, I love it. I’m like, that’s cool. So that’s why I was so excited also to do this for Katie. But I want [01:46:40] to make her life a dream. You know? I don’t want it to be stressful. I want the [01:46:45] clinic to run smoothly. We need lots of systems. We need to review them. We need [01:46:50] to keep communication open. We need to keep training at a high level. We’re just going to work every day and burying [01:46:55] our head in the sand. And as you say, as a clinic owner, you’ve got a manager that’s like a dragon [01:47:00] locked in an office, which they before I was a practice manager, the only types of managers I ever knew. [01:47:05] Why? I didn’t want to be one. Ash had to talk to me many times about being his manager. [01:47:10] And you’ve got, you know, patients that are complaining, receptions, squeezing patients [01:47:15] in left, right and centre patients, just being genuinely difficult [01:47:20] coming into you. They don’t like you not appreciating what you do because they don’t understand your skill set. [01:47:25] And you’ve got a nurse slamming cupboards like, no thanks.

Laura Horton: I [01:47:30] mean.

Payman Langroudi: I just got a bit of PTSD when you said.

Laura Horton: You know what I mean?

Laura Horton: I know lots of [01:47:35] dentists that have given up clinical dentistry and they say, oh, I just I love the [01:47:40] business side. Laura. Yeah. You tell your team that I know the reality. It’s not just that you love [01:47:45] the business side. It’s extremely stressful and it was too much. And, you know, if you [01:47:50] end up giving up clinically like you have and that’s just the way it is, you know, you’ve got to [01:47:55] do what’s right. I think there’s a lot of pressure as well isn’t there. Oh, I’m a dentist.

Laura Horton: Yeah. It’s hard.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:48:00] I don’t want to not do that anymore. I think there should be maybe more dentists who like yourself [01:48:05] speak out about this like it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard to stop. You think you know nothing [01:48:10] else and you know nothing.

Laura Horton: Else, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you realise what else? You know, like when you start looking [01:48:15] into other stuff. Yeah. Developing.

Laura Horton: Right. You’ve got loads.

Laura Horton: Of skills across over, you know.

Laura Horton: It’s hard [01:48:20] to.

Payman Langroudi: Persuade a dentist of.

Laura Horton: That though. You know, you can.

Laura Horton: Imagine, look, you know, probably the majority of senior [01:48:25] schools being geared up, if definitely not the last couple of years. Your A levels geared up to being a dentist, five years [01:48:30] plus your vocational training year or whatever else you do in hospital. That’s just starting, isn’t [01:48:35] it? You’re what, 2223? Immerse in the whole of your 20s into it. It’s [01:48:40] no wonder it’s overwhelming by the time you’re 32, because now you’re feeling the social pressure of where’s [01:48:45] your wife or husband and your kid and your porch?

Laura Horton: And why social media? [01:48:50] Social media?

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you one thing I’ve noticed the quality of dentistry has gone up so much [01:48:55] recently, especially with the young ones. Man, I see some of these young ones where they’re like [01:49:00] just qualified and like six months in, they’re doing things. I wasn’t doing five [01:49:05] years in, like as far as I mean, it’s it’s things come standard, right? Yeah. Rubber [01:49:10] dam and all that. We used to only bring it up for endo if that.

Laura Horton: If your nurse [01:49:15] got it out. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Come on. It’s a it’s a moolah. Come on.

Payman Langroudi: Photography. You know [01:49:20] the the I watched that happen now and I think [01:49:25] wow. Worst case scenario if I had to go back to be a dentist, I’d have to go on a bunch of courses on, [01:49:30] like, you know, rubber dam and stuff.

Laura Horton: But do.

Laura Horton: You feel because I definitely think there’s a [01:49:35] pattern now that the younger dentists are perhaps being interviewed differently, you [01:49:40] know, in regards to getting their place in dental.

Laura Horton: School, they’re.

Payman Langroudi: They’re more sort of academic [01:49:45] because it’s harder to get in.

Laura Horton: I know it’s weird because.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry isn’t an academic subject. You know. [01:49:50]

Laura Horton: I know they’re.

Laura Horton: More academic, but I would definitely say my experience, particularly over the last three years with newly qualified [01:49:55] dentists in practices, is they’re not doing like their foundation year. They’ve maybe like 1 or [01:50:00] 2 years in. They have got the soft skills. Yeah. And they’re very good at managing patients. [01:50:05]

Laura Horton: They’re kinder than us. Yeah. That’s what is it.

Laura Horton: Just younger people these days are just kind.

Laura Horton: It’s [01:50:10] the.

Payman Langroudi: Flip side of that woke.

Laura Horton: Stuff. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The woke stuff. The I don’t [01:50:15] know for me the ugly side of it. Yeah. The you know, whatever we we’ve discussed that [01:50:20] a million times with Rowena. But the flip side of that, yeah, is that people are kinder. Yes. [01:50:25]

Laura Horton: You know, which is good.

Payman Langroudi: We used to we used to be in, in our day. I’m sorry to put you in the same bracket [01:50:30] as me because you’re younger than me. Yeah, but in our in our day, there’d be a certain pleasure in [01:50:35] in pain. Yeah. You know, in, in singling someone out or laughing at people [01:50:40] awful. You know, and then and then we went on to, you know, now would be called racism, [01:50:45] right? Yeah. But back then you say, oh, the Indian guy said this or Italian, mind your language if you remember [01:50:50] that show.

Laura Horton: Yes I do, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But this now, now [01:50:55] I find my kids, their friends super kind. Yeah, super kinder than the [01:51:00] kids when I was their age.

Laura Horton: Kindness is everything.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it.

Laura Horton: Really is, isn’t it? You [01:51:05] know, that’s I. Do you ever watch First Dates? The show? You know where they go [01:51:10] on dates. Oh, it’s really sweet. And I make my husband watch it, and [01:51:15] he’s like, oh. And I say, but the thing is, I love, love.

Laura Horton: And.

Laura Horton: And then I [01:51:20] sit there and I’m like, oh, this person, they’re so kind. I hope they continue dating. They’re so kind. [01:51:25] And I say to him, you know, if anything ever happened to you, my next husband, [01:51:30] he the only thing I’d want is kindness. And he’s [01:51:35] like, does he take that?

Laura Horton: Not very well.

Laura Horton: He’s like, what? Am I not kind? No you’re not. Actually not all [01:51:40] the time. You’re not. Because that’s how we were brought up at schools. Schools. Horrible. [01:51:45] It was. You’re out for your own. Yeah. I’m hoping that’s not the way I don’t know. Is it [01:51:50] the same way in your daughter? She’s in senior school. I’m hoping that will changes somewhat, [01:51:55] but, yeah, we are raising a generation of children that are nicer, and now they’re coming through as [01:52:00] 20 year olds.

Payman Langroudi: Like girls.

Payman Langroudi: Girls a bit nastier than boys.

Laura Horton: Girls are a bit difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. From my.

Payman Langroudi: Experience. [01:52:05]

Laura Horton: I’ve got a stepdaughter. She’s 22, 23. Sorry. Yeah. They’re difficult. [01:52:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: She’s loving. She’s very kind. You know, she’s turned out to be a really kind girl. That’s [01:52:15] how I’d describe her.

Laura Horton: Yeah, she’s.

Laura Horton: Very sweet and she’s turned out very kind.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:52:20] got.

Payman Langroudi: A man. It’s like Rhona says her worst comments come from women on [01:52:25] online. And then some of them listen to my my daughter and her friends talking and it’s like. But [01:52:30] nonetheless, it’s like, you know, there are differences between men and women, right? And we talked [01:52:35] before. We talked about what what it’s like to be a woman. Right. And in a in a [01:52:40] dark alley. Right. Yeah. You know, um, so, you know, it is what it is.

Laura Horton: It [01:52:45] is what it is.

Laura Horton: But I think, you know, I had an awful time as a teenager. I mean, I [01:52:50] would say that throughout school and life, I’ve always gotten better with men. Maybe [01:52:55] that’s why. Because in dentistry, the there are more male dentists, weren’t there? It’s flipped [01:53:00] now. I think it’s fantastic. But I at primary school would always [01:53:05] be with the boys. I was a bit of a tomboy, and then through senior school and even [01:53:10] getting into sort of late teens, early 20s are all my friends were boys and [01:53:15] their girlfriends would hate me because I’d got better banter and [01:53:20] I had a better time. We’d have a laugh and we’d connect more. They were just my friends. That was [01:53:25] it. But their girlfriends would always hate me, and I’m sure [01:53:30] if social media was around then there would have been loads of comments and everything about [01:53:35] that. It’s just pure jealousy and over yourselves like. But yeah. [01:53:40]

Payman Langroudi: I understand.

Laura Horton: Women, women can be very difficult with each.

Payman Langroudi: Other. Competitive, right? Competitive, yeah.

Laura Horton: I would [01:53:45] say now like my greatest friends are it totally flipped. My greatest friends are [01:53:50] all women really five top friends? All women. Nice. Yeah. And I wouldn’t be without them.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:53:55] get to the final questions. Fantasy dinner party. [01:54:00] Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you.

Payman Langroudi: Have?

Laura Horton: I [01:54:05] really, um, [01:54:10] miss my granddad. He is alive. He’s got Alzheimer’s. Oh, yeah. [01:54:15] I don’t think if I went to see him now, he’d know who I was. Oh, he was 90 [01:54:20] last July.

Payman Langroudi: He’s close. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And I’m as much as we used to [01:54:25] hear his stories and go, oh, God, we’ve heard that one so many times now.

Payman Langroudi: You miss them? [01:54:30]

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah. And every now and then, he’d pull one out of the bag that we hadn’t heard. My parents would [01:54:35] always be like.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum’s dad.

Laura Horton: My mum’s dad. Yeah. And my nan. Um, she died a few [01:54:40] years ago. She would just be like, oh, Mick, you know, and, uh, it’s quite. Yes. I [01:54:45] really miss his. Yeah. His stories. Um, and he just used to make us laugh [01:54:50] so much. Such a character. Brilliant, brilliant guy. And it’s so sad that all that’s gone. [01:54:55] Yeah. Um, he’s in a nursing home now. Yeah. And it was sad [01:55:00] when he turned 90 last year because she thought, well, okay. Yeah, he’s made it to 90.

Payman Langroudi: Was the first.

Payman Langroudi: Time you had an inkling? [01:55:05]

Laura Horton: Um, my grandad started to deteriorate. Probably [01:55:10] in the last couple of years of my nan’s life. My nan would moan about him. Okay. Um, yes. Oh, [01:55:15] he’s getting on my nerves. Like he’s asking me this and asking me that, but I think everyone was just sort of like, um. Then my [01:55:20] nan passed away and then it was it was sort of after that that he really [01:55:25] started going downhill. Um, and then there was an incident where it was actually [01:55:30] a heat wave. And I don’t know how this happened, but he was a few miles from home. He was living [01:55:35] on his own, but his friends from all his life, Ethel and role. Ethel just happened [01:55:40] to open the curtains one morning and said, oh, what’s Mick doing out there [01:55:45] in a great big winter coat? 8 a.m. it was already like 30 degrees. [01:55:50] And it was just coincidence that Ethel opened her curtains, because we don’t [01:55:55] know what could have happened to him that day. And roll went and got him and took him home. And that was right. Okay. He needs to go. So firstly, [01:56:00] he went into a care home, but it’s deteriorated into a nursing home now. So yeah, Mrs. [01:56:05] Story’s always had a laugh at my grandad and he liked to drink as well. And we both [01:56:10] have an equal love of roast potatoes. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So your granddad. [01:56:15]

Laura Horton: Yeah, definitely my grandad.

Laura Horton: And then my aunt, who unfortunately passed away a few years ago. Who’s the most [01:56:20] funniest woman? She is my mum’s sister, so she’s like my grandad. I miss her [01:56:25] every day and think about her every day. She’s absolutely well, was absolutely awesome. And [01:56:30] then I think we’d need to mix it up a little bit. We’d need.

Payman Langroudi: Nelson Mandela.

Laura Horton: Not [01:56:35] want to go political. We couldn’t get my granddad on anything [01:56:40] political because he’d be off on one. Yeah. You know, he was he’d be a through and through and all [01:56:45] this, you know. So we’d have to mix it up a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Are you Labour left [01:56:50] wing.

Laura Horton: I’m, I’m not a Labour voter.

Payman Langroudi: No a conservative.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:56:55] Really. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So far these things tend to run in families though. But go [01:57:00] ahead.

Laura Horton: Yeah. You know what.

Laura Horton: Just speaking on that very quickly. My mum and dad will not discuss who they vote [01:57:05] for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I like that too.

Payman Langroudi: I like I kind of like.

Laura Horton: My sisters are like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I kind of like [01:57:10] that. Yeah.

Laura Horton: My mum and dad are like, we’re not discussing it.

Laura Horton: It’s private. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Secret about it.

Laura Horton: We’re like, it’s weird. [01:57:15]

Laura Horton: Um, anyway, so yeah, we need to mix it up a bit. I can’t think who it would be, but we need someone [01:57:20] to bring the party to the table. I would say Payman. Yeah. Don’t want to be having a serious [01:57:25] conversation. We’d need someone really fun to bring. Bring the party [01:57:30] to the table.

Laura Horton: Who’s wild?

Payman Langroudi: Who’s fun and wild?

Laura Horton: That’s wild.

Laura Horton: I don’t really know too much [01:57:35] about them, but I’d imagine someone like Mick Jagger, he’d be pretty wild.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see he’d be.

Laura Horton: Quite wild.

Laura Horton: Wouldn’t he? [01:57:40] I love that, you know.

Laura Horton: I don’t want any drugs there because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Mick Jagger.

Payman Langroudi: Your granddad. You’re right. It’s [01:57:45] a beautiful.

Laura Horton: Combination. Wow. Someone’s going to turn up, like, let’s get this entertainment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:57:50] Someone who’s just absolutely bringing the energy, bringing the laughs like.

Payman Langroudi: He’s [01:57:55] someone you want to talk to. Like, who would that be?

Laura Horton: Oh, do you know, I know you’ve just said Nelson [01:58:00] Mandela. It’s a bit of a cliche, but gosh, what a man. Yeah, what a man. [01:58:05] And I mentioned him earlier in that five levels.

Laura Horton: You know.

Laura Horton: I remember not [01:58:10] knowing too much about him actually growing up. And then I remember reading that great big book [01:58:15] and have you read it or seen it? It is literally like this. And the writing’s [01:58:20] tiny. I just fired through it. I was like, I can’t believe it, I can’t believe it. And I remember saying to [01:58:25] like, my mum, oh, Nelson Mandela, this Nelson Mandela, she’s like, yes.

Laura Horton: Yes, yes.

Laura Horton: Yes. And I’m like, [01:58:30] but why didn’t you tell us all these things? Yeah. Like I think probably trying to shield us from the awful [01:58:35] world and the awful things. But yeah, what a guy. I think there’d be many lessons [01:58:40] in leadership, mental toughness and attitude [01:58:45] and flipping your mindset, I’m really into all of that. Um, or I know I’m [01:58:50] going through them right now. Anthony Robbins yeah.

Laura Horton: Like.

Laura Horton: He’d be so cool [01:58:55] to have there as well, just to be like, I don’t know, but I think I’d want it to be fun. [01:59:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, Anthony Robbins is a quite fun guy as well.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, I reckon.

Payman Langroudi: I had, I had an Anthony Robbins CD [01:59:05] stuck in my. It was one of those. It was what you remember [01:59:10] back in the day, the five CD Multi-chain.

Laura Horton: Oh yeah, living the dream.

Payman Langroudi: Those five CDs were the only [01:59:15] ones that I could ever listen to. And one of them was Nancy Robbins. Yeah, and I must have listened to that one [01:59:20] like, a hundred times. The interesting thing is, the only one I remember, like, of all, it was like a 20 [01:59:25] CD.

Laura Horton: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a compilation.

Laura Horton: All online now.

Laura Horton: Isn’t [01:59:30] it? Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right, let’s get to the final. Final?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Go for it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a weird one. [01:59:35] Deathbed.

Laura Horton: Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, surrounded by [01:59:40] your friends and family. Mhm. What are three pieces of advice you’d [01:59:45] leave for them?

Laura Horton: Be kind. Always be kind. Be [01:59:50] honest. Always be honest I think. Even if you’re going [01:59:55] to upset others. Being honest at all times is really important, particularly [02:00:00] in relationships and about how you feel. I think people just sit [02:00:05] quiet and don’t say anything, and it always ends up being a detriment to yourself. Always [02:00:10] be honest. Always be honest, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Funny one, I know, but.

Laura Horton: I [02:00:15] can’t help it. Payman, I just, I just.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but if you.

Payman Langroudi: Were 100% honest, right, right now, you’d [02:00:20] say something inappropriate to me. You know, let’s imagine the only [02:00:25] joking.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny, honest. It’s a funny one because it’s like, honest. From what [02:00:30] perspective? But I like it, I like it. Come on.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I think just be just be open as [02:00:35] well. Don’t don’t mince your words. Just say what you think I say. [02:00:40] Same as being honest. But be true to yourself. In that sense, don’t [02:00:45] go along with something just because everyone else is. I’ve done that. We’ve probably all done that. I know, and you know, [02:00:50] when you’re older not to do it. Yeah. And, you know, in that sense, I guess what I’m trying to say is [02:00:55] follow your gut and follow your gut instinct. And if your gut instinct is telling you something that’s not right, [02:01:00] then just don’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: I guess that’s what I mean about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [02:01:05] that’s good advice.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you. I’ve really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyed it. [02:01:10]

Laura Horton: Thank you very much.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know how long we’ve been going.

Laura Horton: No, no. Do I know?

Payman Langroudi: It’s just. Um. [02:01:15] Really lovely. I know we had a few, um, times. We arranged it, and I.

Laura Horton: Finally. [02:01:20]

Laura Horton: Got there, didn’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Finally got there? Yeah. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: So massive luck with the new practice.

Laura Horton: Thank you so much. [02:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure the other business is going to go from strength to strength. Really lovely to have you. Real enigma.

Laura Horton: Well, thank [02:01:30] you very much. Thank you very.

Laura Horton: Much for your time.

Laura Horton: Pleasure. Cheers. Bye.

Intro Voice: This [02:01:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [02:01:40] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:01:45] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:01:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [02:01:55] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [02:02:00] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [02:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [02:02:10] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. [02:02:15] Thanks.

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